^^ 3V 
 
 DOMINlOiNS KOVAl. COMMISSION. 
 
 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE NATURAL 
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 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IN LONDON IN 
 
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 \ M > 
 
 PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION. 
 
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 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION. 
 
 ROYAL COMMISSION OF THE NATURAL 
 RESOURCES, TRADE, AND LEGISLATION 
 OF CERTAIN PORTIONS OF HIS MAJESTY'S 
 DOMINIONS. 
 
 V 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IN LONDON IN 
 
 NOVEMBER 1913, 
 
 AND 
 
 PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION. 
 
 (Previous Minutes of Evidence are printed as follows : — London, 1912 [Cd. 6516] 
 (Migration), [Cd. 6517] (Natural Resources, &c.) ; New Zealand [Cd. 7170]; 
 Australia, [Cd. 7171] and [Cd. 7172], and the First and Second Interim Reports 
 are printed as [Cd. 6515] and [Cd. 7210J. 
 
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 Jatiuary 1914-, 
 
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 19U. 
 
 [Od. 7173.] I>r\vc U. 10(/.
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION. 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 Page 
 PRELIMIISAKY NOTE in 
 
 LIST OF WITNESSES -------..- iv 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 I. Migration -----------1 
 
 ii. oveksea commdnications : 
 
 Post and Telegraph .----...-10 
 
 PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION :' 
 I. Migration: 
 
 St;itistii-al Investigation on certain points arising out of a Meniorandnm by the Dominions 
 Royal Commission on tlie effect on Britisli trade of Emigration from tlie United 
 Kiugilom, and on the future populations of the various countries of the Empire ; by 
 E. C. Snow, M.A., D.Sc. -------- 58 
 
 II. Oversea Communications: 
 
 A. — Steamship, Post, axd Telegraph : 
 
 (i) Mails : 
 
 (a) All-Red Mail Route. 
 
 Memorandum liv the Hritish Imperial Council of Commerce - 87 
 
 (6) Acceleration of Steamship Services. 
 
 Correspondence with the I'eniusular and Oriental Steam Navigation 
 
 Company and the Orient Steam Navigation Company - - 88 
 
 (c) Memorandum by Piofessor Sir John Harvard Biles, LL.D., D.Sc, on 
 
 the economic size and speed of steam vessels - - - - 90 
 
 (ii) Cables : 
 
 (a) Letter from the Commercial Cal>le Company as to reductions in rates 
 
 for Australasian traffic --.-.. 9.3 
 
 (b) Letter from the British Imperial Council of Commerce enclosing a 
 
 Memorandum as to telegraphic connnunicalion - - - 97 
 
 B. — Harboirs : 
 
 Memorandum by the Right Hon. Lord Pirrie, K.P., on the development of harbours 
 
 from the point of view of shipowners and ship-builders - - - 99 
 
 C. — Freight Rates : 
 
 Correspondence with the New Zealand Shipping Company, Ltd., and the Shaw, 
 
 Savill, and Albion Company, Ltd. ------ 100 
 
 III. Empire Development and Organisation : 
 
 Letter from the Uoval Colonial Institute, with a supplementary Memorandum by the 
 Empire Trade and Industry Conunittee on their Proposal bir the creation of an 
 Empire Development Biiard and Fund ------ lOl 
 
 IV. Natural Resources: 
 
 Corresjjondencc with the British Cotton Growing Association, the Oflicial Secretary to 
 the High Commissidiur's Office, Commonwealth cf Australia, and the Agent-General 
 for Queensland, as to Cotton-growing in Australia - - - - - 111 
 
 INDEX - 116
 
 HI 
 
 
 PRELIMINARY NOTE. 
 
 The Commissioners present at the evidence taken in the T'aited Kingdom in 
 November 1913 Avere : — 
 
 Sir EDGAR VINCENT, K.C.M.G. (Chairman), 
 Sir ALFRED BATEMAN, K.C.M.G., 
 Sir HENRY RIDER HAGGARD, 
 TOM GARNETT, Esq., 
 WILLIAM LORIMER, Esq., LL.D., 
 JOSEPH TATLOW, Esq., 
 DONALD CAMPBELL, Esq., LL.B., 
 The Hon. EDGAR RENNIE BO WRING, 
 
 representing the United 
 
 Kingdom. 
 
 representing Australia. 
 
 Newfoundland. 
 
 ; The evidence contained in this volume is, in the main, supplementary to that heard 
 by the Commission during their tour in Australasia in the first part of 1913. 
 
 Opportunity has been taken to publish certain Memoranda laid before the 
 Commission, and also correspondence on various subjects connected with their 
 inquiry. 
 
 The evidence, memoranda, and correspondence have been classified in accordance 
 with the method adopted for the Australasian evidence {see [Cd. 7170], [Cd. 7171], 
 ^nd[Cd. 7172]). 
 
 E (5)20S30 Wt 
 
 3000 1/14 K Jc S 
 
 1106420
 
 IT 
 
 LIST OF WITNESSES. 
 
 Day. 
 
 Date on which Evidence was 
 taken. 
 
 Name. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Seventy-third 
 Seventy- foTu-th 
 
 Seventy-fifth 
 
 1-913. 
 Wednesday, 12 November 
 
 Thursday, 13 November 
 
 Friday, 14 November 
 
 Mr. Edwai'd Crabb, C.B., Second Secretary to 
 the General Post Office .... 
 
 The Right Hon. Hem-y Primi-ose, K.C.B., 
 C.S.I., Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board. 
 
 Captain J. B. Parli, Principal Emigration 
 Officer for the London District - 
 
 Mr. Stanley J. Goddard, Em-opean Representa- 
 tive of the Western Union Telegraph Com- 
 pany 
 
 Sir John Deuison-Peuder, K.C.M.G., Vice- 
 Chau-man and Managing Director of the 
 Eastei-n Telegraph Company, Ltd., Manag- 
 ing Director of the Eastern and South 
 African Telegraph Company, Ltd., and 
 Director of the Eastern Extension Australasia 
 and China Telegraph Company, Ltd. ; and - 
 
 Mr. WiUiam Hibberdine, Traffic Accountant to 
 the Eastern Telegi'aph Company, Ltd., the 
 Eastern and South African Telegraph Com- 
 pany, Ltd., and the Eastern Extension 
 Australasia and China Telegi'aph Company, 
 Ltd. 
 
 10-29 
 29-38 
 
 1-10 
 
 38^4 
 
 44-57 
 
 44-57"
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION. 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 DOMINIONS EOYAL COMMISSION 
 
 AT SCOTLAND HOUSE, VICTORIA EMBANKMENT, 
 
 LONDON. 
 
 I.-M I G RATION. 
 
 Thursday, 13th November 1913, 
 
 Captain J. B. Park, Principal Emigration Officer for the London District, called and examined. 
 
 1. {Chairman.) Tou are Principal Emigration Officer 
 for the London district ? — Yes. 
 
 2. Would you read the replies which you have been 
 kind enough to furnish to the questions asked by the 
 Commission ? — Yes, I will be very pleased. I will read 
 the questions first. The first question you ask me is : — 
 
 Can any inforniatimi he given as to the numbers and 
 position, of the 2^^1'sons who receive licences as passage 
 brolcers. Are they usuallg steamship companies, or firms 
 connected with and employed hy tliem, or private 
 individuals ! 
 
 My answer is : — 
 
 The number of licensed passage brokers is 126. 
 Licences are granted to individuals only and not to 
 fimis or companies. Licensed passage Ijrokers may be 
 divided into two classes, namely, (a) men who are the 
 owners of ships, or dii'ectly connected with the manage- 
 ment of .ships, e.(/.,the General Manager or Secretary of 
 a steamship company; (6) men who are not pei'sonally 
 interested iu any ships, but take ovit a broker's licence 
 and have agencies for the sale of passages. 
 
 Founded upon that reply you again ask me : " Can 
 " you give us apjiroximate figures as to the number 
 " of passage brokers, who fall under class (a) and 
 " class (h) respectively ? '' In reply to that : No, I 
 regret 1 am unable to give figures relative to each 
 class of passage-broker. 
 
 The next question was : — 
 
 la practice is any control exercised over the grant or 
 renewal of licences to passage brokers either by objection 
 to the sureties offered, or otherwise I 
 
 My reply to that is : — 
 
 A baiikei''s refei'ence is oi)tained for each and every 
 individual surety, and provided this referemre is satis- 
 factory he is accepted. In the event of the reference 
 being unsatisfiictory or refused then the emigration 
 officer, under the pt)wer vested in him by section 342. 
 Merchant Shipi^ing Act. 18i)4. woubl not approve of the 
 surety. Where a guarantee society is the surety, that 
 society must be one which has been approved by the 
 Treasiu'y for the purpose of guaranteeing passage 
 brokers. As regards the liroker himself, if he was 
 considered to be an unsuitable person to hold a licence, 
 then the Board (jf Trade Wdukl opjiose his application 
 to the licensing authority. 
 
 Founded upon that, you ask : '• Are those who 
 " fall under class (/)) mainly heads or secretaries of 
 " emigration societies or tourist agents, or, if not. 
 '• what is their interest iu the work ? Have they any 
 " connection with steamship comjjanies ? "' My reply 
 to that is : The brokers in this class are generally 
 shipping agents or tourist agents, while a few are 
 connected with emigration societies. 
 
 The next question you asked me was : — 
 
 Boes the counter-signature of the appointments of 
 agents hy emigration officers involve, in practice, any 
 control over tJiesc appointments ! 
 
 My answer to that is : — 
 
 When an appointment is submitted for an agent 
 wlio is considered hy the emigration officer unfit to 
 e (5)20830 
 
 hold such an appointment, counter-signature would 
 be refused. The emigiation officer has, however, no 
 power to withdraw an appointment once it has been 
 issued, except through the ))roker who gave the 
 appointment. 
 
 Founded on that answer you ask me: "Are, say, 
 " clerks in shipping offices appointed as passage- 
 " brokers' agents ? " My answer to that is : If they 
 are in any way concerned in the sale of steerage 
 passages they are required to be appointed. 
 
 3. That is, to be appointed by whom ? — By the 
 broker. The next question you asked was : — 
 
 Can figures he given as to tlie number of aiifliorised 
 agents now existing ? 
 
 My answer to that is : — 
 
 I regret I am imable to furnish authoritative figures 
 as to the number of agents, although four to five 
 thousand would be about the number holding appoint- 
 ments. The number of appointments which have been 
 countersigned, and are at present valid, is apiiroximately 
 twelve thousand. 
 
 ■1. What is tlie difference between your four to five 
 thousand and twelve thousand ? Do you mean to say 
 there are six thousand or seven thousand licensed who 
 are not exercising? — No, I mean one man may hold 
 1(1 appointments. 
 
 ."). {Sir Rider Haggard.) Why does he hold 10 
 appointments? — Because he is appointed by 10 different 
 l)rokers, and each broker must give an appointment. 
 If a man wants to sell a ticket to go to Canada he 
 may get an appointment from the Allan Line. If he 
 also wants to sell a ticket to go to Australia he might 
 get an appointment from the Orient Line. 
 
 6. {Chairman.) Will you go on with the next 
 question ? — The next question is : — 
 
 Is it usual for the same men (a) to hold appointments 
 from several passage brokers, {]>) to devote their whole 
 time to the business of passage agent ! 
 
 My answer is : — 
 
 Many agents are appointed by several of the principal 
 lines, and I think the greater number hold ajjpoiutments 
 from more than one. It would be difficult to calculate 
 the number of whole-time agents in the United 
 Kingdom, but there must be a fair number whose sole 
 occupation is that of selling passages. Scattered 
 throughout the country towns and districts there are 
 many agents who carry on this business as a side line. 
 
 Founded upon that answer you asked me : " Does 
 '■ the acceptance of the banker's reference imply that 
 '• no inquiry of any sort or kind is made into the 
 " general suitability of an applicant to become a 
 " passage broker ? " My reply to that would be : 
 Inquiry is not usually made, although personally I 
 have always tried to interview the man as soon as he 
 has given notice of his intention to apply for a licence ; 
 that is if lie is in or neai' London. 
 
 7. That is t(j say, you exercise some sort of control 
 over the jiaasage broker, but not over any agent he 
 nuiy appoint ? — I exercise it over the broker when I 
 can see him and get at him or he is near me, but I 
 
 A
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 13 Nm-emher 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Pakk. 
 
 [Migration. 
 
 would not think of asking a man that was to become 
 a broker in a towii like Leicester to come to London 
 pm^osely to see me ; and some of the brokers I have 
 never seen. 
 
 8. If he is at Leicester or York pi-actically you do 
 not see him ? — No. 
 
 9. And even if he is here, although you see him 
 you do not see his agents ? — No. 
 
 10. Those he appoints upon his owti responsiliility ? 
 — Yes, the agents would generally be in some town 
 other than the one where the broker was. They may, 
 and many do, appoint ageuts in the wilds of Ireland. 
 The London broker does that. 
 
 Fomided upon my reply to tliat. you ask me : 
 '• Would you explain shortly to the Commission who 
 " the licensing authorities are?" The licensing 
 authorities are laid down in the Act itself, section 343 
 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894 . " Application 
 " for a hcence to act as passage broker shall }x made 
 " to the licensing authority for the place in which the 
 •' applicant has his place of Inisiness. (2) The licensing 
 •' authority, upon the applicant proving to their satis- 
 " faction that he (a) has entered into aud deposited 
 '■ one part of such bond as is required by this Act ; 
 " and (h) has given to the Board of Trade at least 
 •' 14 days" clear notice of his intention to apply for a 
 •' licence, may grant the licence, and shall forthwith 
 '• send to the Board of Trade notice of such grant. 
 " (3) The licensing authority shaU l)e — (a) in the 
 " Administrative County of London the Justices of the 
 •' Peace at Petty Sessions ; (6) elsewhere in England, 
 •■ the Council of a Coimty Borough or County District ; 
 •• (c) in Scotland, the Sheriff ; aud {d) in Ireland the 
 " Justices in Petty Sessions." 
 
 11. Now. I shoidd like to ask you what are the 
 precise responsiliilities and what are the privileges of 
 these licensed passage brokers and their agents ? — The 
 broker, assuming he is the one connected with the 
 shipping company, for example, the manager of a ship- 
 ping company, cannot legally sell a steerage ticket 
 imless he is a licensed broker. He must become oue. 
 and to conduct his business — say for a tii-m like the 
 Union-Castle Company — he wants to have agents in 
 all the different towns to get hold of passengers ami 
 sell tickets; he must appoint agents, and having a 
 broker's licence he appoints agents in accordance with 
 the Act. These appointments in Loudon are all sent 
 in to me fur countersignatm-e. but, as I have said, the 
 agent may be in the wilds of Ireland or anywhere else. 
 and I must judge by what the broker writes ou the face 
 of the appointment whether I think the man a suitable 
 man from his vocation. For instance, I had one sent 
 in this moniing where a certain variety agent company 
 in a part of London wanted permission to l)ecome an 
 appointed agent to sell tickets for steerage passengers 
 to go out to the Cape. I do not myself think it is a 
 vei^' suitable combination, a variety agent (theatrical 
 people) having a steerage passenger agent's appoint- 
 ment : and I pointed out to the wT-iter the Act. and I 
 also advise<l him, that there might be resisons to object 
 to the combination of two such businesses. Again, I 
 have cases where I have a pulilican in a little public- 
 house. I do not think that would be a suitalile place 
 to have an agency, and 1 have declined to countersign 
 such an appointment. Even in some cases there are 
 ))arbei-s' shops and other places of that kiud. 1 would 
 refuse places of that kind entirely in London, but 1 
 might be inclined, if it were in a little coiuitry village, 
 toliccept a man who kept a grocer's store provided 
 it were a small place and I was given clearly to 
 undei-stand something about it. 
 
 12. The rea-son for disallowance by you usually is 
 the man's previous vocation ?— Yes, liecause I do not 
 see the man; I rely on the broker, who signs that 
 ;ippointmeut and sends it to me. that he is appointing 
 a respectalile man. but in many instances I have had 
 to refuse lx)th brokers and agents. 
 
 13. No inquiry is made a.s to the individual's 
 chai-acter ':* — No. none. With the number of agents 
 I could not do it. Not only that, I rely on the broker, 
 whose bond we hold, for the canying out of his 
 business and assume that he appoints a proper agenj. 
 
 14. These 4.000 or 5,000 agents of the bi-okers have 
 pi-actieaUy the monopoly of the sale of steerage 
 passages ; is that so ? — Yes. 
 
 15. What are their responsibilities ? — I do not know 
 that they have any responsibility except that they 
 issue a contract ticket to the jjerson whose money they 
 take. 
 
 111. There is no conti-ol over any statement they 
 may make in order to induce a pei-son to buy a ticket 'f 
 — The Act does have a section in it to the effect tliat 
 if I have any reason to consider that there is any fraud, 
 or that he has induced emigrants to buy ticket.-; in a 
 frauiiuleut way, I can proceed against that agent. l>ut I 
 must have someone to come forward on whose word I can 
 found or advise pro.secution. Six weeks ago. in Loudon, 
 we had a prosecution of a mau for taking money from 
 intending emigrants, and I inquired about that man ; 
 he had an office in the City and another office in the 
 West End, and acted under two false names, and he 
 got money out of a good number of intending emigrants 
 by a false advertisement. I did not interfere in the 
 Mansion House ti'ial in that case, because the man got 
 a heavier sentence than he could have got if I had ; the 
 man got 12 months' hard lalxmi- for fraud. 
 
 17. The fraud in that case was taking money and 
 giving no passage ticket ? — Or false pretences : it was 
 by fraiuJ. Tlie police prosecuted in that case, but if it 
 had been under this Act I should liave contended then 
 that he took the money and gave no ticket. 
 
 18. What was the precise natiu-e of the fraud ? 
 Was it a misdescription of the place to which the 
 emigrant wished to go. or was it obtaining money 
 and giving the emigrant no ticket in return ? — He 
 iidvertised for a manager of works in New Zealand aud 
 lie had nothing to do with New Zealand whatever, nor 
 was he a passage agent in any way whatever. He 
 offei'ed to give them 300?. a year and half their passage 
 out ; he advised them to apply to another office ; he 
 himself was the other man and the tenant of the other 
 office also. The money was fonvarded to the other man ; 
 he received the money at oue office and wrote the letters 
 referring to it at the other, so that it was a do\vnright 
 swindle. The police accepted it at once in the City, 
 and when I came to the West End office I found the 
 police had arrested him in the East End office. 
 
 19. Apart from that it is clearly desirable that 
 intending emigrants should have correct and ti-ue 
 information of the suitability of the place to which 
 they iuteud to transport themselves 'f — That is quite 
 ti-ue. but I do not think you can expect these agents to 
 know very much about these diffei-ent countries ; for 
 instance, in these little country places where those 
 agents are appointed the agent is some little local man 
 who probably knows the people who come to him to 
 ask particulars. Unless there is some distinct fnxud I 
 consider the agent will give what information he can. 
 I assume the emigrant knows something about the 
 place he is going to just as well as the agent. 
 
 20. The agent's interest is. of course, to sell the 
 tickets .'' — Yes. exactly, and my place is to see that that 
 agent does not fraudulently sell those tickets, and that 
 the contract ticket is carried out. Another view of the 
 case might l:>e that the agent might be an agent for 
 Australia or Canada or )>oth places. In the one case 
 he would get a handsome commission if a passenger 
 were going to Australia, especially if he were going 
 '• assisted " or •• aided " \nider some of the Agents- 
 General ; he wouhl then pocket over the transaction of 
 sending the man to Australia about live times as miich 
 as if he sent him to Canada. He would naturally be 
 inclined to think the man was a splendid man for 
 Australia whatever he thought aliout Canada, although 
 proliably he would be an agent ior both. 
 
 21. Over that kind of misrepresentation you do not 
 pretend to exercise any control ."—No. 
 
 22. And n.i control is exercised under the Act ? — 
 No ; in fact I do not reqidre an agent to be possessed 
 of knowledge to give the information. 
 
 23. What is your opinion of the system as it is now ; 
 do you think it satisfactory ?— Yes. 
 
 24. Or tluit it is improvable ? — I think it is very 
 satisfactory to keep hold of the broker, the man who 
 knows the ship or who is connected with the .ship, and
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 13 N(yvember 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Pa.ek. 
 
 [^Migration. 
 
 let him be responsible for the man he appoints as his 
 agent. These big companies like the Orient Line, the 
 Union-Castle Line, the Shaw, Savill Line, and the New 
 Zealand Shipping Company have a travelling individual 
 in their firm who goes round, and it is his constant 
 duty to look up these agents, and any agent who is 
 not getting them any Ijusiness or whom they have any 
 reason to suspect, is called upon by these travelling 
 representatives of the companies, who either remove 
 him from their list or take their agency away from 
 him or do whatever is necessary. 
 
 2-5. However, their action is rather in the direction 
 (jf stimulus than of check ? — Yes. 
 
 26. And they would not commercially blame a man 
 for too highly coloured descriptions of the places to 
 which their ships i-nn ?^No, in fact I rather think they 
 send people about the counti-y to lectiu'e with lantern 
 views, and everything else, and each Agent -General 
 tries his best to get as many as he can. That is my 
 view of it. 
 
 27. In your experience, are there many cases in 
 which emigrants are induced to take passages to places 
 on misdescription ? — Not many ; a few. I think, have 
 been to Canada, but I do not think I have heard of 
 others. A few have been induced to go to Canada 
 when thei'e was little work at the places perhaps for 
 the individual man, but I foimd on making inquiries 
 that trade unions entered a good <leal into it in the 
 western towns, and that a trade union which wanted to 
 raise the wages and to get people to leave the place 
 raised difficidties. There was a shortage of labour in 
 one town. Then some brokers and agents were asked 
 to send over emigrants ; emigrants have gone there 
 and found by the time they got there that the trade 
 was quite Hooded, but it was due to some local trade 
 union work that went on. Two or three times I have 
 found that to be the case. 
 
 28. (Mr. Tatlow.) Is it not the case that the Canadian 
 Government give a bonus of IZ. per emigrant to the 
 agent in addition to the commission he gets from the 
 steamship company ? — I am not quite sure, but I should 
 not think so. 
 
 29. I was told that by the agent of the Canadian 
 Goveniment at Dublin ; they do it apparently in 
 Ireland. — They may do it for a short season, but I 
 have not known that sucli a thing goes on. 
 
 30. He did not limit it at all ; it was the Canadian 
 Government agent in Dublin wIkj told me. — He would 
 know a great deal better than I ; that part <if it does 
 not concern me, but I know certain of the Australian 
 States do give men 1?. a head for every one they can 
 rake in or get hold of. 
 
 31. You said that when the names of agents were 
 submitted to you for tlieir apjjointments to be counter- 
 signed, in the case of publicans you would hesitate 
 about giving the counter-signature •' — Yes, if I knew 
 him to have some small public-house I would hesitate 
 to countersign the appointment. 
 
 32. Perhaps they do not work as strictly in Ii'eland. 
 but I am told in that comitry the greater number 
 of the agents are publicans ? — Perhaps I may explain 
 that, as the principal emigi-ation officer in London. I 
 have to do with the London brokers, such as the Oi'ient 
 Line Ijroker. The Ciuiard Line broker is a Livex'pool 
 man, and they have to do with another officer of the 
 Board of Trade, who is also an emigration officer. 
 But I have a clerk, and if anyone comes along with 
 at all a questionable vocation, apparent on the face of 
 his appointment, my clerk immediately stops it and 
 keeps it back for my judgment. Then I write to the 
 people and ask them. I either ask the broker to come 
 and see me or I write to him : " Are you aware of this 
 man's business ? " and then lie will explain. Some- 
 times it is a woman who is the agent. 
 
 33. I suppose there is no limit to the number of 
 agents who can be appointed by brokers ? — None ; 
 some of the brokers in London have over 2.000 agents. 
 
 34. And your chief reliance is upon the broker 
 being a good business man, and selecting only good 
 agents ? — Yes. The broker of a company of good 
 standing would be very cautious as to whom he 
 appointed as his agent. 
 
 35. {Mr. Lorimer.) Just one or two questionB : what 
 is the nature of the offences which involve tne forfeiture 
 of a broker's guarantee ? — We would come upon the 
 broker for the non-fulfilment of the contract on the 
 ticket. In one case a man took out a broker's 
 licence in London ; he was guaranteed by one of the 
 guarantee societies. That man went to Newcastle 
 and opened an office as a passage broker, and Jie sold a 
 considerable number of passages. Tliese individuals 
 were all to embark xipon a certain day on a certain 
 ship Ln London. When the passengei-s came to London 
 there was no ship, and the broker was missing. They 
 appealed to the emigration officer, who went and 
 booked the whole lot on the first ship for America, and 
 they were forwarded at the expense of the guarantee 
 society who guaranteed the broker; it cost them I 
 believe over 8001. 
 
 36. The principal offence, you might say, is mis- 
 leading the emigrants ? — Yes. 
 
 37. Does action of that character on the part of an 
 agent involve the broker also? — Yes; the brokers 
 bond is behind every agent whom he has appointed. 
 
 38. Does the forfeiture of the bond involve the 
 forfeiture of his licence ? — It certainly would ; we 
 would oppose the re-granting of the licence after he had 
 forfeited his bond. 
 
 39. What authority is it tliat grants these licences ? 
 — The Justices of the Peace in the different towns. 
 
 40. Is there any appeal from them ? — No, not that 
 I know of. 
 
 41. Their decision is final .' — Final. 
 
 42. But you are careful whenever a forfeiture for 
 misconduct has been reported, to oppose the renewal 
 of tlie licence of the man who has Tieen guilty ? — It has 
 only happened once, and on that occasion the bond was 
 forfeited, and th? man never appeared again for another 
 licence. 
 
 43. Tliat is the only occasion on which it ever 
 happened ? — No ; on another occasion I appeared at the 
 GuildhaU to oppose the re-granting of another London 
 broker's licence, and the justices there refused to grant 
 the licence for a certain time. 
 
 44. As a rule, the men who apply for licences as 
 brokers are men of good standing ^ — Oh, yes. 
 
 4.5. And therefore they will be equally careful to 
 appoint trustworthy agents, because of the responsi- 
 bility involved ? — Yes, especially in connection with the 
 large lines to the Dominicms. I have also got to do 
 with brokers who do not deal with Britishers, but who 
 deal with foreigners, and when I come down to the 
 foreign Russian Jew, then, perhaps, I have to do with 
 people who are not quite so sound, and who are not so 
 careful. 
 
 46. Are these brokers appointed in this country? — 
 Yes, and resident in this countiy. 
 
 47. And, of course, you exact from them the same 
 guarantee as you do from the others ? — Yes. 
 
 48. In that case, has it been forfeited more fre- 
 quently than in the case of brokers dealing with home 
 emigi'ants ? — In the two cases that have arisen the one 
 broker was an American, and in the other case the 
 Ijroker was a woman, a Russian. 
 
 49. And she disappointed you? — Well, she did not ; 
 the justices declined to renew her licence for a cert;iin 
 time ; I think thi-ee months was the time for which 
 they refused to grant her licence. 
 
 50. Did you say suspended rather than forfeited ? — 
 It happened that no action was taken until the renewal 
 of the licence was due — these licences are renewed 
 every twelve months — and , it was opposed at the 
 renewal. 
 
 51. By you? — Yes. 
 
 52. And your opposition was effective? — In that 
 case it was sufficient to suspend, or nitlier prevent, the 
 renewal for three months. 
 
 53. (Sir Alfred Bateman.) You say you are Pinncipal 
 Emigration Officer for the London district ? — Yes. 
 
 54. But you act for more than that, do you not? 
 —No. 
 
 55. You spoke about Leicester, I think, just now? — 
 Leicester happens to come within the London distiuct. 
 My district is a pretty large one ; it covers from 
 
 A 2
 
 POMINIONS KOYAI, COMMISSION : 
 
 13 yoventber 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Park. 
 
 [Migraiioii. 
 
 s 
 
 Lincolnshire on the one side roiiml the coast of EngLind 
 down to Devonshire on the other. 
 
 56. So that it is a good deal more than London 
 and vei-y much more important ? — Yes, l>ut I have 
 other duties besides those of the emigration officer, and 
 it is more in connection with those other duties that I 
 have this district. 
 
 57. Altogether as regards emigi-ation yoiu- duties 
 seem to be simply to look ;ifter the agents from this 
 point of view, that they supply what they contract to 
 snpply — a ticket ? — That is it. 
 
 58. So that the people may get to the country they 
 want to go to ? — Tes. 
 
 59. Tou take pi-actically no notice of any mis- 
 i-epresentation about the countiy that they get fi'om 
 the agent ? — No. I have no means of doing so, nor can 
 I judge of the fitness of the individual to go to that 
 country; he pays his money and gets his contract 
 ticket, and that contract has to be can-ied out. 
 
 60. Can brokei-s who are aliens be agents or have 
 they to be naturalised ? — I do not think they need be 
 naturalised, I am not quite certain. In the case of my 
 reference to the American I do not know whether he 
 was natiu-alised. In the case of the Russian, yes, she 
 was naturalised. 
 
 61. But you do not know of any cases in which 
 they are aliens ? — Xo. I cannot say that I do. I may 
 say that out of the 126 licensed brokei-s in the United 
 Kingdom. I think possibly nearly 90 of them are 
 licensed in London ; consequently although I only 
 represent the London district the great bulk of the 
 brokers obtain their licences in London or through my 
 office. 
 
 62. The question of what the agents receive does 
 not come before you ? — No. 
 
 63. Whether they get a guinea or two or three 
 guineas ? — No, they would get five per cent, on the 
 price of the ticket, I think, as far u.s the ticket was 
 concerned, and whatever else might be offered by the 
 society or the colony they were going to has nothing 
 to do with me. 
 
 64. Would it concern you as to where they do their 
 work, whether in theh' own houses or pubKc-houses ? 
 AVliere do they get their custom chiefly? — Wherever 
 their office or place of business is. 
 
 65. They have to have an office ? — I have foiuid a 
 man. for instance, offering to pi-ove he had an office, 
 and I was veiy doubtful of it, and I made enquuy and 
 went myself and I found out that he rented a chau- in 
 an office, and I declined that man's appointment. 
 
 66. I want to ask you a question or two about the 
 modem development of Labour Exchanges : ai-e you 
 aware whether there is any connection between the 
 agents and the Labour Exchanges ; do they do their 
 work there at all ? — I should not think so ; I sho\Ud 
 think they keep as clear of them as possible. I do not 
 know of that sort of thing. 
 
 67. Tou do not know whether they go there, 
 because naturally that would be a good reci-uiting 
 gi'oimd, would it not ? — I do not think so because they 
 would not have any money. The agent only wants 
 the man with money. 
 
 68. In the same way he would not go to a still newer 
 develoijment, that is the Unemployment liisunmcc local 
 agent ? — I should not think so. It would depend very 
 much on the agent how he goes about his business. 
 
 60. The new local L^nemployment agent in a big 
 village has the people coming to him for their pay if 
 they are temporarily out of work in certain trades ; he 
 wets 2«. 6(/. a year for each pei-son on his book. Woidd 
 not that be a good i-ecruiting ground ? — I do not really 
 know. 
 
 70. Tou have not anything to do^vith these things ? 
 Nothing to do with the Labour Exchanges at all. 
 
 71. Or with the way the agents do their business 
 when once they are licensed ? — No. 
 
 72. Tou speak, again, of the agents as acting for 
 several routes ; but they would not act for competing 
 firms, would they ; they woidd rot act for the P and O. 
 and for the Orient lines at the same time, wotild they ? 
 ■ — As far as I am concerned, they might. 
 
 73. Tou do not mind? — Not at all. That is for 
 the companies' brokers, to see that they appoint 
 different men. 
 
 74. That you have nothing to do with? — In the 
 Atlantic the lines ai-e what they call conference lines, 
 and then you become mixed up with a different state 
 of conditions. 
 
 75. When there is a conference line, it does not 
 very much matter as long as you get clients for one of 
 the lines of the conference ? — That is so. Of course, 
 we have brokers — Thomas Cook is a passage broker 
 and all his clerks and all his agents are passage brokers' 
 agents, and they have all appointments. I do not 
 know whether a company would refuse to give an 
 appointment to an agent because that agent had 
 ah-eady been appointed by another company ; I do not 
 know that, but I should not think so. 
 
 76. Complaints about misrepresentation of the 
 country to which they were going would not come to 
 you much ? — No ; in fact, 1 never looked on the agent 
 as being an individual capable of giving advice as to 
 the country. 
 
 77. But you are awai-e that he paints evei-ything 
 often in vei-y bright coloiu-s ? — I am afraid, no matter 
 what information you gave him, he wotild still be 
 prepared to do so. 
 
 78. {Mr. CampheU.) Do you know anything about 
 the appointment of these passage brokers when they 
 come before the Justices for a licence ; is it regarded 
 merely as a formal affair ? — I think so. 
 
 79. Quite formal ? — Tes. 
 
 80. No serious inquiiy is made about the hoiui fides 
 of the individual ? — Oh. no. as long as the man complies 
 with the law. 
 
 81. And finds the guarantee ? — And finds the 
 guai-antee. 
 
 82. In connection with that guai-antee you say 
 there are 12.000 appointments of passage brokers' 
 agents by 126 passage brokers .•" — Tes. 
 
 83. That vould Ije an average of about 100 passage 
 agents to each passage broker? — Yes, although it is 
 not so. It would work out like that if you averaged 
 it, but it is not so. 
 
 84. No ; but there may be cases, and probably there 
 are, where one passage broker would have perhaps 
 1.000 ai>pointments ?— Tes, 2,000 and 3,000. 
 
 85. And those 2.000 or 3.000 passenger agents are 
 all covered by the one individual guai-antee that is 
 given by the one passage broker ? — That is so. 
 
 86. So that in a case like that, of coui-se, the 
 iiuarantee gets rather attenuated, does it not ? — Tes, 
 it does. 
 
 87. 1 do not know whether you have answered the 
 question as to whether you regard the system as one 
 that is likely to liave any serious dangere attached to 
 it. Do you ? — No. 
 
 88. Ton look upon it ? — As working perfectly 
 
 well. 
 
 89. Perfectly safe ?— Perfectly safe. 
 
 90. What check is there : what force is bix)ught to 
 beai" to bring these passage agents, whose every intei-est 
 is rather to misi-epresent the position of affaii-s to an 
 intending emigi-ant. what force is thei-e that compels 
 them to keep so well within the line that there is no 
 serious damage arising fi-om it ? — The broker would 
 withdraw that man's appointment if I were to approach 
 that broker and prove to him that there was i-eason tor 
 doing so. and that might spoil that man's business in 
 that town. 
 
 91. In the.event of any trouble occurring, if any 
 such case of misrepresentation were known (I do not 
 say it has been because it appeal's to me there is very 
 little evidence on the subject one way or the other), 
 but suppose a case occurred where there was palpable 
 misi-epresentation by the passage broker or his agent, 
 who sets the law in motion ; is the responsibility on the 
 emigi-ation officer ? — Tes. 
 
 92. Tou are supposed to keep on the watch for 
 those things ; you act on complaint ? — If complaint is 
 made to me. 
 
 93. Tou act on complaint ? — Tes, I would do so, 
 but it is very difficidt for me because I must have some 
 evidence of fi-aud or something more than just bare 
 
 \
 
 MINdTKS OF KVIDENCrO. 
 
 13 November 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Pabk. 
 
 \_Migration. 
 
 misrepi-esentation ; I must have it that the agent has 
 received the man's money and will not or does not 
 fulfil the contract. 
 
 94. Thi.s case of which we have Ijeen told, that is 
 the case of Morris v. Howden (Queen's Bench, 1897), 
 malies it very difficult for you ? — Yes. 
 
 9.'). Is there any intention or is there any possibility 
 of rectifying that by regulation ? — Not by regulation. 
 
 9(]1. Is there any intention of amending the law? — 
 It would be a little difficult to get that amended ; we 
 would have to appeal, I think, to the High Court, and 
 probably carry it even further than that to get that 
 decision altered. 
 
 97. Is it common for a jiassage broker or his agent 
 to give to an intending emigrant a I'eceipt for money, 
 practically a contract, for a passage in which no ship's 
 name or date of sailing is specified ; is that a common 
 form ? — Ever since that decision was given. 
 
 98. Perhaps we misunderstood each other ; it is noi^ 
 common for a passage agent or a passage broker to 
 give a contract in which the ship's name or her date of 
 sailing is not specified ? — Yes. I am afraid it is. 
 
 99. So that there are still a very great number of 
 cases to which this case would apply 'f — Yes. The 
 case does arise. 
 
 100. It does arise frequently still ? — It does arise, 
 especially with the Atlantic passengers, in the East End 
 of London. 
 
 101. Is there any intention to I'emedy this defect in 
 the law ? — No, I do not know that there is. 
 
 102. "Would it not be possible to compel passage 
 agents or brokers when they are making a contract by 
 regulation or by the control you have over their 
 appointment ? — I have not very much control. 
 
 103. I am speaking now of passage agents ? — No, I 
 cannot do anything but demand the production of a 
 written appointment of an agent. The agent may be 
 in Ireland and the broker in London, and he sends 
 down a hundred appointments for me to go through and 
 countersign— jn'obably .jOO apjiointments. 
 
 104. So there is no possible way of compelling 
 agents to make a definite contract which would bring 
 that contract within the ambit of the court? — No, I 
 think not. 
 
 105. In case of its coming to yoiu- knowledge that a 
 passage agent has done something which, though it 
 may not be within the circle of the law, still is. in your 
 opinion, something that would disqualify him as a 
 passage agent, you have no means of revoking his 
 appointment at all ? — I wotdd di-aw the attention of 
 the broker to it first, and hear what the broker has 
 to say, and I would deal with that agent through the 
 broker unless the fault were grave enough for me to 
 prove fraud agamst that agent. 
 
 106. Do you ever have any cases of that sort where 
 complaints are made against a passage agent, and you 
 take those steps you speak of ? — Yes, I have appealed 
 to sevei'al brokers. 
 
 107. There are several cases ? — Yes, I have often 
 sent for the agent, and had the agent in my office, and 
 he has offered to refund every penny between himself 
 and 21 • passengers before he went out rather than I 
 should bring him into conflict with his broker. That 
 kind of thing hapi^ens chiefly with foreigners. I am 
 largely con<;erned with foreigners — Jewish Russians, 
 Poles, and Austrians. 
 
 108. You mean in the case of foreign(M's who are 
 intending emigrants ? — Yes, and some Jewish agent <u- 
 co-religionist down in the East End of London who 
 deals with these people. Probably there are not two 
 out of twenty who can speak a word of English, and I 
 have to do the best I can and try to get the emigrant 
 put straight and his ticket can-ied out. 
 
 109. Are there many of those foreign agents ope- 
 rating ? — A fair number. 
 
 110. {Sir Bidet- Haggard.) I suppose I am right in 
 concluding that the interests of both these brokers, 
 and of the .5,000 or more agents who work imderneath 
 them, are purely pecviniary ? — I think entirely. 
 
 111. And I think you told one of the Commissioners 
 that they would not care to go to Labour Exchanges 
 and so on, because those people were not set up in 
 
 funds ? — I have to assume that in the coimtry towns 
 they are there to get commission. 
 
 112. Is that so ?— I presume so, but 1 1 ave nothing 
 whatever to do with it. 
 
 113. Then it is a case of " It is y(jur money wo 
 want " ? — Yes, imless it is some philanthroi)ic society 
 which is to be the agent. 
 
 114. We will leave them out; we will not tikf in 
 the ijhilauthropic societies. There are certain brokers 
 who employ a huge number of agents scattered 
 throughout this kingdom who are all out to get money 
 from intending emigrants ; is that so ? — That is their 
 business. 
 
 115. And it is a business which they carry on and 
 in which they seem to succeed, do they not ? — Some 
 succeed ; others do not. 
 
 116. You have told us certain rather shocking 
 stories which have come to your notice as to frauds 
 which have been played off upon these emigrants, and 
 would it be perhaps fair to presume that other such 
 incidents have happened which have not come to your 
 notice ? — Yes. 
 
 117. That is, perhaps, all I need ask about that. 
 You told the Chairman and, I think, another Com- 
 missioner, that you considered this state of affairs 
 entirely satisfactory ; in view of what you luive just 
 said to me, do you still consider the state of affairs 
 entirely satisfactory ? — Yes. 
 
 118. Upon what ground ? — That the person I have 
 reported was not an agent. In the case of the man I 
 had to go against and prosecute at the Mansion House, 
 he was not an agent. 
 
 119. You told several stories, and you said other 
 such things might have happened you did not know of. 
 In view of those facts, do you still consider this system 
 an entirely satisfactory system ? — I do not see that I 
 can better it much. 
 
 120. Of course, we all have difficulties in attaining 
 to tlie ideal, but as it stjinds can it be an entirely satis- 
 factory system under which there are 5,000 men, over 
 whom there is practically n(} control, loose in this 
 kingdom with liberty to misrepresent to any extent 
 they like, in order to obtain money from persons who 
 are willing to leave the country, or who think they 
 wish to leave the coimtry ; is that an entirely satisfac- 
 tory system ? — I do not see how I can alter the thing. 
 
 121. I will take it in that way ; you do not .see 
 how you can alter it ? — No. 
 
 122. Can you give me an answer to the question, is 
 that an entirely satisfactory system as it stands ? — I 
 cannot consider it an unsatisfactory system. 
 
 123. Why not. the facts being as admitted ? — 
 Because I do not look upon the agent as an individual 
 placed there to give information to intending 
 emigrants ; I look upon the emigrant as Iieing an 
 individual already possessed of his idea of where he is 
 going to and he goes into that office or shop and buys 
 his ticket as if he went in anywhere else and bought 
 an article. 
 
 124. You have truly told us that this is done, not 
 from any virtue, not to help the man, but to get money ; 
 under those circumstances is it right that a person 
 who benefits pecuniarily should be in the position of 
 directing the individual applying as to leaving these 
 shores, and as to where he should go when he does 
 leave ? — I do not think the individual re(|uires that 
 information from that agent any nu)rp than if 1 went 
 into a shop and knowing wliat I want 1 buy it and 
 pay for it, 
 
 125. You think in point of fact a yoimg woman, 
 for instance, of 17 or 18, or a young person goiu" 
 there, does not require any assistance on such a 
 subject ? — I do not think she would expect to get it 
 from that agent ; that agent would be in probably 
 some village and perhaps know not much more than 
 she would. 
 
 126. Taking it on that basis, the agent may be a 
 person of the most supreme ignorance who yet, as is 
 asserted freely, and I think it would seem, not without 
 foundation, does give glowing accounts of certain 
 counti-ies by sending the individuals to which countries 
 he will profit pecuniarily ; that is so, is it not ? — 1 
 think he will be supplied with some particidars from 
 
 A a
 
 POMINIONS ROYAI. COMMISSION: 
 
 13 November 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Fabk. 
 
 [Migration. 
 
 the broker who appoints bim for the information of 
 anyone who wants to emigrate, and I think he would 
 use theii- advertisements and their information. 
 
 127. ■\Vithoiit any trimmings from his oivn imagi- 
 nation ? — Pi ssibly he might add to it. 
 
 12?. Still your answer is that, in view of all you 
 have said, and of all that is admitted, you still con-sider 
 it is a very satisfactory .system ? — As long as they are 
 able to get the other side of it and can get information 
 from the nearest post office. I do not see that there is 
 iiuj-thing very far wrong. 
 
 12!). That i.s your answer, but, as a matter of fact, 
 the appointment of these agents and, to a certain 
 extent, of the brokers, is a mere form, is it not; it is 
 only subject in the case of the brokers to a money 
 guarantee? — Yes. a money guarantee. 
 
 130. And anybody who can insure with an insurance 
 society, and get a money guarantee, can be appointed 
 a broker H — I have had to iutei-vene on one or two 
 occasions with certain men that I have made inquu-y 
 abo\it. and I luive lieen able to exert sufficient influence 
 to prevent them getting a broker's licence. 
 
 131. That is in a few cases? — Yes. 
 
 132. But there must be many cases where it is a 
 mere form; a person against whtmi there is. nothing 
 ostensible and who offers the guai-antee can have the 
 appointment ? — Yes. imless I knew something about 
 him. or had some reason to suppose there was some- 
 thing AVTong. 
 
 133. And it would be fair to presume that you 
 would not know all the details about him ? — Yes. 
 
 134. If that is so ^\■ith the broker, still more so 
 with the agents ? — Yes. I look to the broker to lie 
 aware of that. 
 
 135. Therefore the person whose appointment in 
 the majority of cases is a mere form has the power of 
 the appointment of scores or hundreds of others to 
 can-y out the executive part of his business? — Yes; 
 but the l)roker, you must remember, is connected with 
 the ship, and it is to his interest to conduct his business 
 in a thoroughly proper way. 
 
 136. Is it not, m the tirst place, his interest to tind 
 piissengers for the ship ? — Yes, I suppose it is, but you 
 would not get people in the position of the shipowners 
 of London or Liverpool who would willingly or know- 
 ingly appoint agents who woxild do anything which 
 was illegal. 
 
 137. I do not think there is much use my troubling 
 you fm-ther; I will put to you one final question. You 
 would not agree with me if I suggested to you that, 
 so far from lieing entirely satisfactory, the systeln is 
 about as bad as it can be ? — No, I would not agree 
 with that. 
 
 138. (Chainiiaii.) The fact is that biokers and 
 their agents are. in your view, in no sense public 
 officers — they are mere tradesmen in passages ? — 
 Entirely. 
 
 139. They have no obligations to the public ? — 
 None whatever ; that is my view. 
 
 140. Now I woidd ask you to read the answers you 
 have been good enough to prepare ^vith regard to the 
 accommodation on board emigrant ships ? — The first 
 question you ask is about ships" hospitals. 
 
 Ho^ipital Acroiiiiuodatioii : lieijuhifioti 11 hiijs doirii 
 that supcint space is to be set iipart for hospital oceoiii- 
 modation. and Regiilatiou 13 defines the minimum sjiace 
 to be provided. In priietire is any distinetion drawn 
 hetwenn the space set apa^•t for hospital aeeommodafion 
 ■in respect of a sltorf voyage such as Hint to Canada and 
 long tropical voyages sueh as tliose to South Africa and 
 Australasia '! 
 
 And my answer is : — - 
 
 Practicallj' no difference. 
 
 Founded upon that answer you ask : " Do you think 
 ■' it advisable to have pi'ecisely similar regulations as to 
 '■ hospital accommodation for short voyages of seven 
 •• or eight days and long tropical voyages ? K not, 
 •• what improvements would you suggest in the 
 " x-egvdations for the latter." And my answer is : 
 Possibly a slight increase in the amount of area 
 reqvui'ed, although, of course, where an infectious 
 disease broke out this would not make much difference. 
 
 The next question you ask is : — 
 
 Is such accommodation adequate ? 
 
 And my answer is : — 
 
 Adequate in the North Atlantic trade, but on some 
 occasions in longer voyages and especially where any 
 infections disease has broken out. the accommodation 
 has, I understand from the medical oflicers on some of 
 the ships, been in their opinion insufficient. 
 
 Founded upon that answer you ask : " Do medical 
 • officers t)f the emigrant ships make any special report 
 '• to the Board of Trade as to health on emigrant ships 
 •• which could serve as a basis for action "" ? — My reply 
 is: -All cases of infectious disease are entered in the 
 •■ official log book of the ship, also the medical officer 
 •' signs a form as to the mmiber of cases, but it could 
 •' hardly form a basis for action." 
 
 141. Whom does that log book go to ? — It is kept 
 by the Registrar-General of Seamen. 
 
 142. Then in the case of infectious disease breaking 
 out on ;ui emigrant ship, does he make no special 
 report?— He would fill in a form that infectious 
 disease had lirok'en out. He would also fill in the date 
 the infections disease was discovered and what treat- 
 ment was adopted — for instance, if patients were put 
 in the hospital and when they were declared well, and 
 got out of the hospital again. The form would be 
 signed by the captain of the ship, the doctor, and the 
 chief officer. 
 
 143. Do all these reports come eventually to some 
 place of control here — do they come to you ? — Not to 
 me. but to the Registrar-General of Seamen; these log 
 books of the ships are all kept there. 
 
 144. You are the official in charge of accommodation 
 f<ir steei-age passengers, are jou not ? — Yes. 
 
 14d. But you do not see reports upon which an 
 opinion could be formed as to whether hospital 
 accommodation has been adequate ? — No ; of course my 
 officers are in touch vnth the officers ot the ship and 
 could ask them when they noticed there had been 
 infectiiius diseases and they could make enquiry from 
 the captain of the ship and the doctor. " Were you 
 hard put to it ? " or. '■ What had you to do ? " 
 
 14G. An emigrant ship goes away and a large 
 amount of infectious disease breaks out ; xmless you 
 happen by accident to ask, you get no notice or infor- 
 mation aliout that ? — Yes, I would know that infectious 
 disease had broken out on that ship. 
 
 147. In what way ? — The doctor of that ship has a 
 form to fill in and that form comes to me, but it would 
 not go into any particulai's. 
 
 148. Not as to the number of cases or the adequac}- 
 or non-adequacy oi the segregation wards ? — No, it 
 would not mention the adequacy of the hospital 
 accommodation. It would mention certain items ; 
 for instance, if the ventilation were defective in the 
 hospitals as fitted, but not as to the area or quantity. 
 
 149. Woidd you go on ? — Your next question 
 was : — 
 
 Is any return available shoiring the frequency of 
 affaclcs of infectious disease during voyages, and the then 
 adequacy or othei-wise of the arrangements made ? 
 
 And my answer is : — ■ 
 
 On lioard the last -jo ships cleared from London 
 and which carried 20,392 emigrants there were 169 
 infec^tious cases on 22 of the ships and 33 vessels had 
 no cases. 
 
 On that you ask me, " Could you tell the Commis- 
 •■ sion whether the cases of infectious disease occurred 
 •• mainly on ships to Austialasia or on those to Canada 
 •' and the LTnited States of America, or were they 
 •' evenly distrilmted ? "' — My answer is : I should say 
 they were mainly on the Australian voyages. 
 
 150. {Mr. Larimer.) I suppose that is because 
 infectious disease is largely latent for a definite 
 period ? — Yes. 
 
 151. You might have just as many going to Canada 
 with that disease latent ? — Yes. 
 
 152. And it would develop after they got there ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 153. (Chairman.) Will you go on to the next ques- 
 tion ? — Yoiu' next question was : — 
 
 In case of a severe epidemic of measles or other 
 infectious disease on board, are arrangements made for
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 13 November 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Pabk. 
 
 [Migration. 
 
 temporary extension of the hospital arrangements with 
 
 adequate segregation ? 
 
 My answer is : — 
 
 No arrangements are made for epidemics, and the 
 master and surgeon must in eaeli ease do whatever is 
 possible under the circumstances. 
 
 Fovmded upon that answer you ask : " What can 
 " you suggest in the way of lietter provision against 
 " epidemics on long tropical voyages ? '' — I do not 
 know that I can advise much unless you do not allow 
 the passengers out of the ship, and you do not allow 
 anyone to come into it at ports of call. 
 
 1.54. You might recommend lai'ger segregation 
 quai-ters .-* — Even if I did I would have to enlarge very 
 very much before it was of any great good. I myself 
 have been in command of an emigi-aut ship and had 40 
 cases of measles at a time and had no difficulty in 
 making the necessary ari-augements. 
 
 15.5. Where did you put them — on the upper deck H 
 — Yes, I turned out a room of stewards, and I was 
 able, with the doctor's assistance, to arrange matters 
 entirely to his satisfaction. 
 
 156. Might it not be compulsory on board ships 
 to have the possibility of creating segregated accom- 
 modation of that kind ? — You would require a good 
 deal of exti'a accommodation to be able to meet a 
 case of that kind ; the increase would need to be lai'ge 
 to be effective once an epidemic had broken out. 
 
 157. Do you really tliink that these are things you 
 must take the chance of ? — I think so ; I think it 
 might be possible to make a small increase to the 
 hospital accommodation on the Australian ships over 
 and above what is required for the Atlantic ship, but 
 only a small addition. It would not be satisfactoiy to 
 meet the infectious disease when it broke out. 
 
 158. It might deal with the first few cases and 
 prevent their spreading ? — Yes, in that way ; that 
 would be all. Both as regards people to look after 
 those who are sick on board the ship and to make 
 aiTaugemeuts. the cajitain, as a rule, can do a good 
 deal in' most ships, both by employing suitable women 
 to act as niu'ses from among the hundreds that are 
 perhaps on boar-d, and men, too. by ijayment and agi-ee- 
 ment. I have never had any difficulty and I have 
 made many voyages all over the world with emigrants. 
 
 159. Will yciu continue y — Your next questitm 
 was : — 
 
 Berthing Accomiiwdatioii ; Beg illation 9t provides for 
 the berthing of male passengers (other than those who 
 oixupy berths with their wives) either in separate rooms 
 or ill a 'compartment divided from, the space ap-propriated 
 to the other steerage passengers by a bulkhead. In 
 practice which of these plans is usually adopted (a) on 
 emigrant ships to Canada, (b) on those to Australasia? 
 
 My answer is : — 
 
 (a) and (&) Generally in separate compartments, 
 although in some lines they are in rooms and other 
 passengers in the same compartment. 
 
 Founded upon that you ask : " What is the exact 
 " difference between a compartment and a room j* "' 
 My answer to that is : A compartment in a ship would 
 be a space self-contained \vith its own ladder-way, its 
 own ventilation, with a large number of passengers in 
 it ; a room woixld be a cabin within a compartment 
 which was not a self-contained arrangement with its 
 own ventilation and its own entrance. 
 
 160. In your opinion, is the separation now pro- 
 vided adequate ? — It depends a great deal on the 
 booking clerks and the booking arrangements with the 
 passengers. The ships are liuilt and c<"ime to London 
 from the building yards from different places, with 
 cabins, and it depends considerably im the liooking 
 clerks of the different companies to see that the men 
 are berthed as much as possible in one set of rooms, 
 and the women as much as possiljle in another. That 
 is when the whole of the people on the ship are berthed 
 in separate cabins. Of course, if we deal with them 
 berthed in large steerages where they ai'e in cubicles 
 or entirely open, then the men would all be in one part 
 of the ship in the open steerage, and the women, if in 
 another open steerage, would ))e in another part 
 divided by a steel bulkhead. In each case each 
 steerage would lie a self-contained place, with its own 
 
 ladder-ways, its own means of ventilation, and occu- 
 pied entirely by men in the one case and entirely 
 l>y women in the other. But when we deal with a 
 ship that is all built in caljins and supposed to give 
 rather superior accommodation, then much depends on 
 the berthing of the people ; one vt)yage we may have 
 500 men, and the next time there may Ije 500 women, 
 and we have to try and make the thing fit for both 
 occasions, and it depends a good deal how this berthing 
 is arranged for. 
 
 161. That is done by the companies without any 
 superior control ; it really depends on the booking 
 clerk y — The booking clerk gives my officers who go 
 down to the ship on sailing day particuiars as to where 
 he has put the women and where the men are to be 
 put, and if my officer has any objection to make he 
 would do so ; and the Agents-General of the different 
 colonies have generally someone down at the ship 
 representing them ; and if one of those gentlemen had 
 any objection to make it would be I'ectified ; they 
 would do what was right in the matter. They would 
 not take and lierth four or five women in a cabin 
 immediately in front of a room with four or five men ; 
 if there were two adjoining cabins (women on one side 
 and men on the other) instead of having spaces above 
 at the roof and Ijelow at the floor for a cm'rent of air 
 and ventilation, all that would be closed up. My 
 officers would see that was done. In fact, the shipping 
 companies as a ride do all they can towards meeting 
 us : they know what my officers would recpiire. 
 
 162. And in the cases where temporary emigrant 
 accommodation is set up, are the difficulties greater 
 there ? — No ; as a rale the temporary aiTaugement 
 would lie put up to meet the bookings which they had. 
 They would say: "We have 100 women, and we must 
 ■■ Imild for lOtt women in this part ; we have 500 men, 
 '• we must put them down another hold and arrange 
 '■ for them.'' 
 
 163. Will you kindly go on y — The next ipiestion is: — 
 It has been suggested that the quarters of the single 
 
 men should be at one end of the ship and those of the single 
 women, at the other. Is this system praciicallg 2Jossibh' ! 
 
 My answer is : — 
 
 Yes. In some ships this arrangement exists. 
 
 The next questitm is : — 
 
 Does it already obtain in many emigrant ships ! 
 
 And my answer is : — 
 
 Yes. In many. 
 
 Pounded upon that answer you ask nie : "Would you 
 " suggest that separation of the quarters of the sexes 
 " by placing them at different ends of the ship should 
 •' be made compulsory on all emigrant ships " P My 
 answer is : No, I would not. Again : " Would it l)e 
 " practicable to jirovide a sepai-ate deck for the single 
 " women ? " and my answer is : No, in some ships it 
 would be impossible. 
 
 The next question is ; — 
 
 Or, if not, what arrangements for separation of the 
 sexes are made in practice ! 
 
 And my answer is : — ■ 
 
 Separate compartments are allotted to each sex, or 
 all may be berthed in small rooms. 
 
 The next question is : — 
 
 What improvement is possible ! 
 
 And my answer is : — 
 
 This would depend very much on each particular 
 ship, but where women are all in I'ooms and men in 
 rooms it would lie well, where jjossible, to have the 
 women's rooms separated from those of the men by a 
 division or partial bulkhead. 
 
 With reference to that I should say that I had in 
 mind where an <iccasion would arise whei-e yon had 
 women directly facing cabins with men. In that case 
 if it were practicable on that particular ship I should 
 then fit up a screened liulkhead I'unning between the 
 two sexes. Of coiirse, by everytliing you do to intro- 
 duce screens between rooms on a ship, if she is going 
 down the Red Sea, you hamper the ventilation terrib.y 
 and increase the trouljle amongst the emigrants. The 
 next (piestion is : — 
 
 Are married quarters nsiinlhj provided > 
 
 And my answer is ; — 
 
 Yes. In nearly idl sliips. 
 
 A I
 
 DOMINIONS ROVAI. COMMISSION 
 
 13 November 1313.J 
 
 Captain J. B. Park. 
 
 [Migratioti. 
 
 The next question is : — 
 
 Is special accommodation usually reserved for assisted 
 and nominated emigrants, particularly single women 
 emigrants tcho arc going out to the Australian States or 
 Neic Zealand ! 
 
 Anil my answer is : — 
 
 Yes, usually, and partioiilarly if there is a large 
 number of suih emigrants. 
 
 lOi. Will you go straight on now ?-r-The next 
 question is : — 
 
 General : Generally speaking, is there a tendency, 
 and, if so, has it been more marked in recent years, to 
 provide (a) better hospital uccontniotlation ! 
 
 My answer is : — Tes it has ; the hospital accom- 
 modation is better than it used to lie. And : — 
 
 (b) and more privacy as regards berthing arrange- 
 ments than the minimum laid down by the Segulntions .' 
 And my answer is : — Tes, especially in the new ships. 
 Tou then asked me something a))out matrons ; " Can 
 '• you tell the Commission anything about theappoint- 
 " ment of matrons with parties of assisted and 
 '■ nominated emigrants ? " 
 
 165. Do you consider the aiTangements as to 
 mati-ons satisfactory ? — As emigratiou officer I have 
 nothing to do with the matrons ; if a society had a 
 uumlier of single women they might send a mativn in 
 charge of them, but I cannot demand that such should 
 be supplied. 
 
 166. Then as regards temporai-y stewards. AVe 
 have heard complaints of the conduct of these tem- 
 poi-ary stewards who are working their passage out. Do 
 you know anything of that 'f — The employment of 
 temporaiy stewaids is a general one, but it rests with 
 the master and officers of the ship to see that these 
 people conduct themselves proj>erly, and they should 
 not be berthed near where the women are berthed. 
 
 167. (Mr. Tatlou.) I suppose the Board of Trade 
 could, under regulation, if they thought fit, i-equire a 
 matron to a certain number of female emigrants !" — 
 The Act prescribes what we ciin require and demand, 
 but there is nothing of that kind. 
 
 168. It could not be done ? — I think possibly the 
 law admits of such a requirement being made. 
 
 169. You think it could be done without any 
 addition to the law ? — I think under the Act of 1906. 
 as it stands, possibly the Board of Trade could do 
 such a thing ; I am not quite certain, but I think 
 perhaps they could. 
 
 170. Only one other question, and that is about the 
 minimum accommodation ; the Board of Trade regula- 
 tions lay down at present what the minimum 
 accommodation shall be ? — Yes. 
 
 171. I think you admitted that while that was 
 satisfactory for the shorter voyages it was insufficient 
 for the longer ones ? — You are now speaking as to the 
 hospital accommodation ? 
 
 172. Yes ; therefore would you agi-ee that the 
 Board of Trade regulations should be altered and 
 should provide for two minima, one for the shorter 
 and one for the longer voyages ;■ — I think the present 
 one might do for the shorter voyages, but where a ship 
 was a very full one I think it might be increased 
 slightly for the longer voyages. Still whatever the 
 increase was it would never be sufficient to meet an 
 epidemic. 
 
 173. Still you would consider it desirable to alter 
 the Board of Trade regulation to that extent ?^As 
 regards the area requu-ed I think it would be an 
 improvement to slightly increase the quantity required 
 on a longer voyage in a full ship. There is no trouble 
 unless the ship is perfectly full. 
 
 174. {Mr. Larimer.) In the supplementary questions 
 submitted to you, you were asked : '• What can you 
 " suggest in the way of better provision against epi- 
 " demies on long tropical voyages?" That induces 
 me to ask whether emigiunts are kept under medical 
 supervision for any time liefore they sail ? — No. 
 
 175. None at all ?— None at all. 
 
 176. And they may come up at any moment with 
 disease latent ? — They all come down in the train 
 together, probably 200 in the train. 
 
 177. As you said a moment ago, these epidemic 
 diseases mostly break out on long tropical voyages ; 
 
 I suppose you would admit that medical obsei-vation 
 for some time would probably detect all the latent 
 cases ?— It possibly might ; but if I take a ship going 
 to Australia and I get down to Naples and limd 200 
 or 300 people ashore : if I get down to Port Said and 
 I allow 400 emigrants ashore for the day — all that pro- 
 tection I have taken would probaljly lie nullified. 
 
 178. They ai-e allowed ashoie at these different 
 places ? — All of them. 
 
 179. Then the idea I had would be upset by that; 
 my thought was that if they were kept under obser- 
 vation long enough to ensure that Ijefore they went on 
 board there was no latent disKise it might be useful, 
 but, of coui-se, if they come in contact with jjeople on 
 the way at Port Said and elsewhere, that would be no 
 use ? — The cases of small-pox which have arisen in 
 Australia recently were taken liy people embarking in 
 Ceylon. Colombo, and these ports on the outward 
 voyages, and can-ied to Australia ; they did not go 
 from England. 
 
 180. Do sailing ships carry emigrants ? — No ; we 
 have no sailing ship can-ying emigi^ants to-day — not 
 one. 
 
 181. (Sir Alfred Bateman.) Can you tell the Com- 
 mission whether it is a serious expense to alter the 
 building for proper segregation when it comes to 
 having, say, 400 women on board instead of 200 on 
 the last voyage ? — That would depend eutii-ely on the 
 particular ship, and what her ari-angements were: it 
 might cost nothing. 
 
 182. Might it cost a great deal? — Not very much, 
 I think. 
 
 183. It would not affect you ; you wovdd not be 
 stopped from recommending the master of the ship to 
 make these alterations so as to seciu-e proper segrega- 
 tion for a lai-ge number of women emigrants ? — If they 
 berth them in cabins that is all Ave can demand — 
 women in cabins. If I were talking about that kind of 
 ship, and most ships have those cabins now. it would 
 cost almost nothing. 
 
 184. With cabins you mean you would have the 
 sexes intei-spersed ? — The same as the first -class 
 accommodation — cabins all over. I could put half the 
 cabins full of men. or a third or all of them, or on the 
 next voyage I could put the bulk of the women in the 
 cabins and vei-y few men. It would not not make any 
 difference in the cost in that case. 
 
 185. In what cases would it raise the cost particu- 
 larly? — It might raise the cost where I had an open 
 steerage for men. an open space which held 150 men, 
 and I had only got 80 men. Then I must make some 
 different an-angements entirelj' if the bulk are to be 
 women, and put them somewhere else. Look at the 
 different steerages of a ship ; there is a large place 
 ftdth one ladder. I cannot introduce a second ladder — 
 I cannot cut holes through. The first-class is all 
 over ; I cannot readily cut ventilators through, as the 
 emigrants are generally down below the second or the 
 first class, and it is very difficult to cut through the 
 decks. I have always to be governed by this question 
 of ladder-ways and the arrangements for the ventilation. 
 
 186. Do any of these abuses which happen on board 
 ship on long voyages come befoi'e you? — Not miless 
 there is some grievous complaint wi-itten by a pas- 
 senger, then I would hear of it. 
 
 187. What would you do ?■ — I would send for the 
 captain, and ask him for an explanation when he came 
 back. 
 
 188. And if it was not satisfactory ? — I would have 
 the owner along and see the owner of the ship, 
 
 189. Would you refer it to the Board of Trade ?— 
 I would. 
 
 190. Through the Registrar-General ?^No: direct 
 to the Marine Department. 
 
 191. You have never had such a case ? — Yes ; the 
 probability is that it would go to the Marine Depart- 
 ment and they would refer it to me, the reverse way, 
 and then I woiUd send for the captain on the arrival of 
 the ship and have a full detailed account of what took 
 place, and if it were unsatisfactory I should communi- 
 cate with the ownei-s about the want of management 
 on that ship.
 
 AIINUTE8 OF EVItiEXOE. 
 
 13 November 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Pabk. 
 
 [^Migration. 
 
 192. Could you tell the Commission of a recent 
 case of that ? — No, I have not had any particular recent 
 case. 
 
 193. Do you remeniljer any cases ? — I had com- 
 plaints about the want of management in one ship. 
 There wei'e two oi' three different illnesses on board. 
 It was said that the doctor was neglectful, and that 
 kind of thing, and that there was want of proper 
 attention by the matron uy stewardess. I thinli the 
 complaint came from Melbourne ; in fact, most of the 
 complaints I ever hear of come from Melbourne. 
 
 lO-t. Why is that ? — I suppose there is some 
 gentleman in Melbourne who is interested in the 
 matter. 
 
 19.5. There are societies to look after the thing ; do 
 you have complaints as to the inefficiency of matrons 
 looking after the girls or anything of that sort ? — No, 
 I do not hear of that ; I have nothing to do with it ; a 
 matron is not compulsory and I cannot enter into the 
 question of matrons. 
 
 196. It does not come within .the four comers of 
 any Act r — No. 
 
 197. The Board of Trade could not make regula- 
 tions aliout it H — I am not jirepared to say whether the 
 law is printed in such a way that the Board's regula- 
 tions extend that far or [not. I think it is possible 
 they could ask foi' a matron. 
 
 198. But you have not had a case ? — No. 
 
 199. (Sir Rider Ha(/gard.) I gather you think, on 
 the whole, things are fairly satisfactory both as regards 
 the segregation and hospital accommodation H — Yes. 
 
 200. And that it would be difficult to improve 
 under all the circumstances in either of those par- 
 ticulars ? — It might be improved, perhaps, especially 
 if we had a general idea of how many women were 
 going, how many men, and how many maiTied people 
 when the ship was built, but we have not ; this is a 
 constant changing quantity — these different numbers 
 of people. 
 
 201. To\i think, under all the cu'cumstauces, it 
 would not be easy to improve greatly upon the present 
 aiTangements in either case — either segregation or 
 hospital accommodation ? — The hospital accommoda- 
 tion might, as I said, be increased a little on the long 
 voyages, and not ouly that, but in some of the existing 
 shijis the hospitals might have been put in better 
 positions perhaps. 
 
 202. The Board of Trade has no authority to order 
 that, has it ? — It is a little difficult ; the Board of Trade 
 officers are, say, in Glasgow, wheie a ship is liuilt and 
 the officers there are shown the ship and they pass it. 
 After a ship has got one clearance, it is a little diffi- 
 cult for another officer to come along and condemn the 
 arrangement which has been accepted on a former 
 voyage by another of the Board's officers. 
 
 203. Then practically there are difficulties about 
 demanding any alterations ? — Yes. A London com- 
 pany would, perhaps, bring their plans round to my 
 office, and they would all be gone into, and my officers 
 would recommend about the hospitals and, possibly, 
 alter the plans and get them all straight Ijefore the 
 plans went to the Imilding yard. The shijis would 
 come round practically as we an-anged. But another 
 owner who did not wish us to be consulted would go 
 dii-ect to the builder and say, " You build our ship 
 •' to pass the Board of Trade." That ship would lie 
 built to pass the Board of Trade officer on the spot, 
 in Glasgow, or BeU'ast, or wherever he might be. 
 The shipljuilders know what has been passed before 
 and what will pass again. Possibly in cases of that 
 kind we might be able to say, " Had you shown us 
 " this before we would have suggested some other 
 " better an-angement," but the quantity we can 
 demand will be there in every instance, and probably a 
 little more. It is simply a question of the arrange- 
 ment of the different cabins which are allotted as 
 hospitals, or their position in the ship, and one officer 
 may think a hospital is not as well placed as it might 
 be, and that it would be better somewhere else. 
 
 204. It does come to this, that there are difficulties 
 about making alterations, especially when the ship has 
 already passed the Board of Trade ? — Yes. 
 
 c 2IJ8.3U 
 
 205. You are aware, I suppose, that there ai-e some 
 very sad cases of epidemics on these long voyages ; 
 the Chairman and myself saw a poor woman who lost 
 one or two children and had another there dying, and 
 
 J she complained liitteily that there hail been no sufficient 
 isolation and that the sick children were playing «vith 
 the sound ones ? — Was not that mismanagement on 
 the ship ? 
 
 206. I can scarcely answer the question; we only 
 heard her story and that was what she said. You know 
 there are very serious epidemics ? — I do not think you 
 can make it any different. If an epidemic breaks out 
 in an emigrant ship it is almost certain to be pretty 
 bad unless it is caught at once. 
 
 207. (Mr. Garnett.) Do you find, with regard to 
 hospital accommodatiouandsegregationaccommodation, 
 that on the part of the shipowners there is an increasing 
 tendency to meet the wishes of the Boaxd of Trade or 
 is the tendency I'ather to cut the thing down to the 
 lowest minimum ? — With all the companies of good 
 standing the tendency is to meet the Board of Trade 
 and to go Ijetter than the Board of Tx'ade require- 
 ments. 
 
 208. Is it a policy which the Board have con- 
 sidered, viz., to screw up everybody to the standard 
 that some of the best companies are setting of their 
 own accord ? Is there anything contrai'y to sound 
 policy in that, that the Board of Trade should tiy to 
 bring up those who lag behind to the standard of tliose 
 who are prepared to go further than the present 
 requirements : in other words, to i-aise the require- 
 ments ? — Some of them charge less passage money and 
 they could not afford it; it is all very well to talk 
 about a fine ship where they charge 17/. lOs. for 
 eveiy emigrant who goes out and pays fuU fare, but 
 where you are taking an Australian man at 12/. you 
 cannot afford that kind of thing, 
 
 209. It is a money question ? — When we begin to 
 talk about improvements, yes. 
 
 210. Does your department look upon it from the 
 money point of view ? — No. 
 
 211. Anyhow, you admit there are some people 
 giving a great deal more than other companies ? — Yes. 
 
 212. And one might hope, perhaps, to see these 
 i-equiremeuts made the minimum ." — They are charging 
 more for it ; for instance, take two companies going 
 to the same place ; one woidd prolablj^ charge more 
 than the other, and I should certainly expect to find 
 very mucli better treatment both as regards lierthing 
 and food on the one with the higher fare than I would 
 on the other. 
 
 213. It goes without saying that the consequences 
 to people on a long voyage if they are quarantined for 
 a long time are very serious ? — Yes. 
 
 214. And it must be the cause of a great deal of 
 suffering, inconvenience, and expense to those who are 
 (juarantined ? — Yes. 
 
 215. Therefore it is not too much to hope that 
 means might be found whereby these epidemics might 
 be nipped in the l)ud ; as you have said in your evidence, 
 it is a matter of isolation at the very beginning, having 
 sufficient isolation accommodation, and segregating 
 those who are suffering from the sound ones ? — If they 
 are detected in time ; but it is a very difficult thing 
 with measles among the children. 
 
 216. One knfiws and admits all that. We had 
 several complaints in Australia, not only al)out the 
 conduct of some of the stewards working their passage 
 out. but their inefficiency ; that is to say, instead of 
 their being efficient stewards and alile to look after 
 those who were ill, they were very ill themselves and 
 the people who were suffering had to go without atten- 
 tion. Have you had any complaints on those grounds ? 
 — An; you talking now of a passenger who is not well, 
 or somebcjdy who is ill in the hospital ? 
 
 217. I am speaking of the emigrants who go out 
 and suffer from sea-sickness and who shoidd have been 
 attended to by these stewiu-ds who were Ul themselves ; 
 they were stewards working their passage out. Have 
 you ever heard any complaints about insufficiency of 
 
 B
 
 10 
 
 POM 1X10X3 UOy.VL COMMISSION : 
 
 13 Nov^mher 1913.] 
 
 Captain J. B. Pabk. 
 
 \^Migration. 
 
 r.ttendance of that kind? — We cannot demand any 
 stewards. 
 
 •21S. Ton cannot demand anything ? — No. 
 
 •J19. That does not automatically come within your 
 purview at all ? — I know of one partirular company 
 which, when it charters a ship, i-equires the emigrants 
 to wait upon themselves. I can demand one steward 
 and two cooks for, I think. 100 people — two cooks 
 for 300 people. These are the bare regulations : 
 " Where there are on board as many as 100 steerage 
 " passengers not statute adults, there must be a sea- 
 
 " faring pei-son appointed as a steerage passengers' 
 •■ steward, and another as cook. U there are more 
 " than 300 statute adults there must be two cooks. 
 '■ The steward and the cooks must be rated on the 
 ■• .ship's articles and be approved by the emigration 
 '• officer." That is the whole of the instruction I have 
 got to demand any stewards for an emigi-ant ship. 
 
 ■220. That is all you can a.sk ? — That is all I can 
 demand, and instead of that we find one shiii chai-ging 
 a great deal for a passage and dealing \vith them as if 
 they were second-class passengers. 
 
 II.-OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS: POST 
 AND TELEGRAPH. 
 
 Wednesday, 12th November 1913. 
 
 Ml-. Edward Ckabb, C.B., Second Secretary of the Genei-al Post Office, called and examined. 
 
 221. (Chairman.) You are Second Secretary to the 
 Post Office, and you have been good enough to come 
 here to represent that department ? — Tes. 
 
 222. Perhaps the most convenient course would be 
 if you would kindly i-ead yo\ir memoi-andum which was 
 di-awn up in answer to certain questions which we 
 wrote to you ? — Tes. Shall I begin vrith the telegraph 
 part of it ? 
 
 223. Please begin with the telegiuph part of it. 
 
 The follmving are the questions and the memorandum 
 in reply thereto: — 
 
 Cable Communications. 
 
 Questions. 
 
 (<i) Membere of the Commission will no doubt 
 desire to ask questions in connection with the, General 
 Post Office memorandirm of 30th April liU3,* on the 
 question of a State-owned Atlantic cable, which has 
 been forwarded to the Commission. In particular the 
 following points suggest themselves : — 
 
 (1) When will the landing licences of the Com- 
 
 mercial Cable Company's gi'oup fall to be 
 renewed ? 
 
 (2) Could the Commission be supplied with a copy 
 
 of the landing licence now applicable to the 
 Western Union gi-oup of cables ? 
 
 (3) With i-eference to the statement by Mr. Samuel 
 
 at the Imperial Conference. 1911 (Cd. 5745, 
 p. 301), that the amount of load which the 
 Pacific cable could supply to a State-owned 
 Atlantic cable would l>e about 1,000,000 
 words per year, it might tie pointed out that 
 according to the last published report of the 
 Pacific Cable Board (House of Commons 
 Paper 256 of 1913), the international ti-affic 
 can-ied by the Pacific cable on an average 
 dimng the List thi-ee years amounted to over 
 2,000,000 words. Some of this traffic, of 
 com-se, was to and from Canada and the 
 United States. 
 
 (h) On the general question of telegi-aph rates to 
 and from Australasia the Commission would be glad to 
 have the views of tlie Geuei-al Post Office as to the 
 effect in increasing traffic of the recent introduction of 
 defen-ed and week-end telegrams and as to the possi- 
 bility and prospects of fiu-ther reductions in (a) ftill 
 rate, {b) defeiTed and week-end, (f) press, messages, 
 with particular reference to improvement of the load 
 factor on the cables, which is at present poor. 
 
 (c) It has been stated that, as yet. adequate 
 publicity has not been given to the increased facilities 
 afforded by the system of defeiTed and week-end 
 telegrams, and it has also been suggested that the 
 following changes might usefully be made : — 
 
 * See Anuexiue on p. 12. 
 
 (1) that no extra charge should be made to the 
 
 public for the service communications indi- 
 cating the uatiu-e of these messages ; 
 
 (2) that the minimum length of week-end telegrams 
 
 should be reduced to 12 words, costing 9s. ; 
 
 (3) that the charge for week-end telegrams should 
 
 be reduced to (id. a word ; 
 
 (4) that week-end messages should be transmitted 
 
 by telegi-aph throughout ; 
 
 (5) that the use of registered addi-esses should be 
 
 available for week-end messages, as well as 
 for ordinary and deferred : 
 
 (6) that " dictionai-y " code words should be allowed 
 
 in these messages, as distinct on the one 
 hand from plain language, which alone is 
 allowed at present, and on the other from 
 any kind of pronounceable word which is 
 permitted in code telegrams. 
 The Commission would be glad to hear the views of 
 the General Post Office on these points. 
 
 (rf) It has also been brought to the notice of the 
 Commission that — 
 
 (1) the percentage of reduction on defeiTed tele- 
 
 grams to and from the United States of 
 America and Canada is greater than that on 
 those to and from Australasia ; 
 
 (2) the Western Union Cable Company has com- 
 
 menced a system of daily cable letters to 
 America ; and 
 
 (3) week-end telegrams to Austi-alasia are delivered 
 
 on Tuesday morning, whereas those to the 
 
 United States of America and Canada are 
 
 delivered on Mondiiy morning. 
 
 The Commission would be glad to know what view 
 
 the General Post Office take of the jjossibility of 
 
 similar an-angements on the Australasiiin service. 
 
 (e) In connection with the question of substituting 
 the use of the fastest ship on the l>erth for a large 
 mail subsidy on account of the Australasian mails, it 
 has been suggested that the money saved might be 
 devoted to the improvement of telegraphic communi- 
 cations with Australasia. The Commission would \>e 
 glad to receive any views the General Post Office may 
 be able to express on this suggestion, and to know 
 whether they could give any approximate estimate of 
 the increase in traffic likely to result from reduction, 
 say, to {a) Is. 6d. a word. (6) 9(?. per word, for full-rate 
 messages, with corresponding reductions for deferred, 
 week-end, and press messages. 
 
 Memorandum from General Post Office in reply to 
 the above Questions. 
 
 The Post Office is concerned with cable questions 
 primarily to secure an efficient service at rates reason- 
 able both for the public and for the cable imdertaking.
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 11 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edwaed Crabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 Questions of military expediency, for instance, such 
 as those involved in the provision of cables for strategic 
 reasons, do not come directly within the sphere of the 
 Post Office. It is not jjroposed, this being so, to oft'er 
 any i-emarks either on the views which liave been put 
 before the Commission as to the strategic necessity 
 of State cables, or on the merits of the suggestion which 
 has been made that a direct subsidy should be paid 
 so as enable the Pacific cable rates to be reduced below 
 what are justifiable from a business point of view. 
 Those are matters primarily for the consideration of the 
 naval and military authorities and of the Treasury. It 
 may, however, lie stated, as a matter of historical fact, 
 that subsidies have not hitherto been given with a view 
 solely to reductions of rate (though such a subsidy is 
 now contemplated in the special case of the West 
 Indies), and that the Colonial Office assured the Eastern 
 Telegraph Company in 1899 that there was '■ no inten- 
 " tiou of working the new (;'.e.. Pacific) cable on other 
 " than commercial lines and at remunerative rates " 
 (page 29 of [Cd. 46] of 1900). 
 
 It appears that only in the case of the North 
 Atlantic has the provision of a State-owned cable been 
 advocated before the Commission on other than purely 
 strategic grounds. On the commercial aspect of the 
 suggestion for a State-owned Atlantic cable, the Post 
 Office has little to add to the memorandum* on that 
 subject which the Colonial Office forwarded to the 
 Commission in May last. In that memorandum it was 
 pointed out that in existing circumstances the Pacific 
 cable traffic to and from Australasia would not bring 
 to a State Atlantic cable a revenue of more than 30,000/. 
 a year as against an annual estimated cost of 50,000/. 
 It was further explained that it could not be expected 
 that the Australasian traffic would be supplemented liy 
 an adequate amount of North American traffic, since, 
 on the one hand, the Post Office is boimd until 1920 
 to give to one of the cable companies all telegrams 
 for North America which bear no indication of route, 
 and is further bound not to invite the sender to specify 
 a route, while, on the other hand, there is not in either 
 Canada or the United States any system of inland 
 telegraphs of adequate completeness whicli is imlepen- 
 dent of the cable companies. 
 
 As regards the telegraph advantage of a. State 
 Atlantic cable, it is obvious that reductions of rate 
 are easier to arrange where the whole route is under 
 one control than where the consent of several parties 
 has to be negotiated. The probable amount by which 
 traffic would increase under the stimulus of a given 
 reduction of r.ate can, however, only be estimated with 
 any degree of confidence, if at all, by those who are 
 familiar with the particular class of traffic involved. 
 The bulk of the extra-European cable traffic does not 
 pass through the hands of the Post Office, and the Post 
 Office is not in a position to offer expei't opinion as 
 to the effect of a reduction in the Atlantic rate for 
 Australasian traffic on the revenue derived by a State 
 cable from such traffic. It can only point out that the 
 deficit on a State-owned Atlantic cable would be about 
 20,000/. a year if it <;arried the pi-esent Pacific traffic 
 at the existing rate ; and th.at there is no satisfactory 
 evidence that a reduction in the rate would result in 
 such an expansion of traffic as would increase the net 
 revenue. 
 
 As regards efficiency, the existing service pro^'ided 
 by the Atlantic cable companies is admittedly a good 
 one. In these circumstances the Post Office is forced 
 to the conchision that from a commercial point of view 
 the provision of a State cable across the Atlantic is not 
 at present justified. 
 
 As regards telegraph rates and facilities in general, 
 the Post Office has lost no opportunity of assisting, 
 where circumstances were favourable, in )'eduction of 
 rates and improvement of conditions, and, as the 
 Commission is aware, it is taking power to control 
 rates in connection with the renewal of cable landing 
 rights. The landing licence of the Commercial Cable 
 Company exijires in June 1915. 
 
 A statementf showing the red\ictions which have 
 been secm'ed within the Empire during the last five 
 
 See Annexure on \i. 12. 
 
 f Not printed. 
 
 years is annexed. The Commission is, it is thought, 
 aware that there have not in this period been any 
 red\ictions in the rates for code telegrams to the 
 British Oversea Dominions. The Post Office, while 
 not committing itself to the maintenance of these rates 
 at their existing amounts, mvist nevertheless point (JUt 
 that the great develcjpment in telegraph codes which 
 has taken place in the last ten years has resvilted in a 
 material reduction in the cost of telegi-aphing in code; 
 even though the nominal i-ate has remained the same. 
 This reduction would not have been possildo but for 
 the decision of the London Telegi-aph Conference 
 of 1903, mainly on the initiative of the British 
 Government, to admit artificial combinations, as 
 distinct from dictionary words, for use as code. This 
 decision, by permitting the use of combination codes, 
 has proved tantamimnt to a reduction in the code rate 
 by at least 50 per cent. 
 
 The incidence of telegraph rates is obviously much 
 less heavy on users of code than on users of plain 
 language ; and it was in order to benefit those members 
 of the public who were not in a position to use code 
 that the system of lower rates foi- plain language 
 telegi'ams (defeired telegrams and cable letters) was 
 brought into operation. Thus, the essential feature of 
 these services is the use of plain language ; and the 
 suggestions that code telegrams should also be 
 admitted at the same rate on condition of submitting 
 to the same deferment disregard the fact that it was 
 only Hie relatively small proportion of plain language 
 telegrams to code telegi'ams in the cable service which 
 made the reduction practicable. A considerable pro- 
 portion of the code traffic might possibly be defen-ed 
 without detriment to the interests of the sender or 
 addi'essee ; and the introduction of deferred code 
 telegrams might have disastrous financial effects to 
 the cable service. It is not to be inferred, because it 
 is practicable to accept a comparatively small portion 
 of the traffic for transmission at a less busy time at 
 reduced rates, that therefore a large portion of the 
 normal traffic could be similarly accepted. 
 
 As regards the proposal to allow code words drawn 
 from dictionaries at the defen-ed rates as opposed to 
 artificial code words, experience has shown that it is 
 not practicable for cotuiter clerks to distinguish 
 dictionary words from artificial words. The existing 
 codes of dictionary words are based on the vocabularies 
 of several languages in order to obtain as large a 
 selection of words as possilile, and, in order to avoid 
 confusion with plain language, the compilers of such 
 codes prefer unusual words and words from the less 
 known languages. To distinguish such words from 
 artificial woi'ds requires a linguistic knowledge which 
 counter clerks do not possess. It is certain that a 
 distinction of tariff' between dictionary code and 
 other code would cause great friction and prove 
 impracticable. 
 
 Suggestions have been made for the further 
 reduction of the deferred and cable letter rates. The 
 general international rule is that the defen-ed rate 
 shall l^e half the ordinaiy rate, and it is probable that 
 extensions of the week-end cable letter system A\-ill be 
 on the basis of charging a quarter of the ordinary rate. 
 The standard proportions can therefore at present be 
 regarded as 1. 2, and 4 corresponding to the ordinary, 
 deferred, ami cable letter rates. These proportions 
 seem suitable, and as the special services have been in 
 existence for less than two years it is not thought 
 likely that the proportions will be altered generally, at 
 any rate for some time to come. It is true that a 
 further reduction has been aiTanged in the deferred 
 service with North America. The possibility of 
 introducing a .similar reduction for Pacific cable 
 ti-affic is a question wliich falls for settlement to the 
 Pacific Cable Boai'd. as does also that of establishing 
 a service of night cable letters to Australasia. 
 
 As regards the cable letter service with Australasia, 
 the Pacific Cable Board have agreed in principle to 
 reduce the minimum to 20 words, but they have not 
 yet agreed to the single rate, this nritter being still 
 under discussion. 
 
 The Post Office is not able to speak as to the 
 possibility of a reduction in the ordinary r-ite to 
 
 B 2
 
 12 
 
 POMISION"? ROYAI, COMMISSION 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edwaed CraBB, C.B. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 Austi-alasia. The initiatire in such reduction lies rather 
 with the Pacific Cable Boai-d. who are in the best 
 position to judge of the effect of the reduction on their 
 i-erenue, and who must be supposed, in view of their 
 ofl&cial chai-acter. to hive adp(|uate re^'ard for the 
 interests of the pu))lic. 
 
 Annexxire. 
 
 Memomndiim by General Post Office. 
 
 The provision of a State-owned cable between the 
 United Kingdom and Xortli America has been 
 advocated on three grounds, uamelv : — 
 
 (1) Contixil in case of emergency. 
 
 (2) Prevention of monopoly and of a consequent 
 
 increase of rates. 
 
 (3) Reduction of rates. 
 
 As regards control in case of emergency, all the 
 13 Transatlantic cables from the United Kingdom are 
 landed in North America on Newfoundland or 
 Canadian territory, and the Imperial Government and 
 the Governments of Newfoundland and Canada enjoy as 
 complete control in case of emergency as if the cables 
 were State-owned. 
 
 As regai-ds the prevention of the establishment of 
 a monopoly and a consequent increase of rates, the 
 e.tistiug Transatlantic cables fall into two entirely 
 indeiiendent groups (the "Western Union group with 
 eight cables and the Commercial group with five 
 cables) which maintain a healthy rivalry with each 
 other by competing strongly for traffic, both in this 
 country and in North America. Moreover, a com- 
 bination to raise rates is practically precluded by the 
 fact that the Postmaster-General has established as a 
 condition of the renewal or transfer of landing licences 
 Government control subject to arbitration, of the rates 
 charged by the Western- Union group of cables, and 
 the same principle will lie applied to the cables of the 
 other group when its licences fall to Ije renewed. 
 
 As regai-ds the reduction of rates it is assumed that 
 it is contemplated that the proposed State-owned cable 
 would be worked on a commercial basis and that the 
 taxpayer would not be asked to contribute a subsidy 
 in order to cut the rates lielow what would be justifiable 
 from a business standpoint. 
 
 It would not be justifiable, fi-om this point of 
 view, to lay a State-owned Transatlantic cable for the 
 traffic over the Pacific cable to and from Australasia 
 :is has fi-om time to time been suggested. As explained 
 l>y the Postmaster- Genei-al at the Imperial Cont'ei-enee 
 in June 1911. the total amount of this traffic is less 
 than one-half the amount now carried on the average 
 by each Atlantic cable and less than one-fifth of what 
 a single calile would be capable of can-ying. The 
 estimated receipts at existing rates in respect of the 
 Atlantic transmission of Australasian traffic ai-e not more 
 than 30,0U0/. a year, while the total annual cost of a 
 State-owned Atlantic cable is estimated at not less 
 than 50,000?.. leaving an estimated annual deficit of 
 20,000/. Interruptions of cables are more frequent in 
 the Atlantic than in the Pacific, and it woidd be 
 undesii-able to rely upon a single cable. If a second 
 cable were pro^•ided the annuiil deficit would be much 
 larger. 
 
 Neither would it l>e possible \mder pi-esent con- 
 ditions to supplement the traffic for the Pacific cable 
 ■with an adequate amount of North American traffic. 
 Apart from the fact that the Post Office is boimd 
 under Agreement to hand to the Anglo-American 
 Company until January 1920 all telegrams for North 
 America which beai- no indication of route, there is 
 the difficulty that the land telegraphs in the United 
 States, and the greater part, at any rate, of the tele- 
 graphs in Canada, are in the hands of private companies, 
 which ai-e closely connected with the cable companies 
 and would hardly be likely to give facilities to the 
 traffic of a competing State-owned cable as against the 
 interests of the cables which they own or with which 
 they are closely allied. 
 
 On the other hand the existing cable companies 
 have recently shown themselves responsive to well- 
 con.sidered demands for reductions of tariff. While, 
 
 as above stated, the Postmaster-General possesses 
 powers of control which could be used to bring about 
 the reductfon of any clearly excessive rates, he would 
 point out that the Ti-ansatlantic cable companies, in 
 common with other companies, recently agi-eed to the 
 system of half-rates for deferred telegrams in plain 
 language and to substantial reductions in the rates for 
 press telegrams exchanged with the British Dominions, 
 and that in the Transatlantic service ariungements 
 have been made for the transmission at greatly i-educed 
 rates of day and week-end cable lettei-s. 
 
 Apart from these considei-ations. it is doubtful how 
 far it would be expedient to incur large expenditui-e 
 upon the provision of a new State-owned cable sei-vice 
 at the present time in view of the progress of wireless 
 telegraphy and the promise of a cheaper service which 
 that mode of communication affords. 
 General Post Office, 
 London. 
 30th April 1913. 
 
 iI'J-l. 1 think there is a further memoi-andum by the 
 General Post Office, is there not. with regard t(.i the 
 cables between the United Kingdom and North 
 America ? — That was sent in some time ago, and I 
 have referred to it here.* It follows the lines of 
 Mr. Samuel's announcement before the Inijjerial Con- 
 ference. 
 
 22.J. The most convenient course for us wouM lie 
 that you should be examined on what you liave just 
 read, and deal with the mail matters subsequently ? — 
 As you please. 
 
 22t). What was the origin of the Pacific cable ? 
 What waji the object with which it was created!-' — To 
 fiu'iiish an altermitive route to that supplied by the 
 Eastern Telegiuph Company and the allied companies. 
 
 227. On account of the high rates then prevailing, 
 or on account of inacciu'ate or delayed service, or for 
 what reason ? — I think it was because the Austi-alasian 
 Colonies felt themselves to be too much at tlie mercy 
 of one line, on account of the high i-ates then prevail- 
 ing, but not on account of any imperfect service given 
 by the company. 
 
 228. It was really to meet the desire for lower 
 cable rates ? — I think you may say that. yes. 
 
 229. Then you say that when the Pacific cable was 
 established a declai-ation was mide that there was 
 no intention of working the new cable — niimely. the 
 Pacific cable — on other than commercial lines and at 
 remunerative rates. What did you undei-stand by, or 
 what was understood by, ■' commercial lines " ? — The 
 letter was a letter fi'om the Colonial Office, but I 
 imagine that what they meant when thej' said that, 
 was that the cable was not to be used simply to cut 
 i-ates regardless of expense to the taxpayer ; that 
 there was to be a definite commercial retm-n on the 
 cable ; that it was to pay its way, in point of fact. 
 
 230. Does that mean, then, that you were Ui im- 
 pose such rates as would give the maximum return 
 independent of the interests of the public r — I doubt 
 if more was meant than that the cable shoidd pay 
 its way. 
 
 231. It seems to me i-ather difficult to i-econcile 
 that with the original purpose of the cable, which was 
 to reduce rates ? — The i-ates for the cables coming 
 from the west were reported to be too high. But it has 
 been held by committees, notably by Lord Balfour's 
 Committee, that we are not to use our powers with 
 the cable companies regardless of their financial 
 position, and 1 take it that there was no intention of 
 estabHshing what might be called cut-throat com- 
 petition. 
 
 232. But you were to aim at reasonable i-ates in 
 the interests of the companies and in the interests of 
 the public ? — Yes. 
 
 233. You say that, as a matter of historical fact, 
 subsidies to cables have not hitherto teen given with 
 a view solely to i-eductions of rate ' — Yes. 
 
 234. Ai-e there not precedents in the case of the 
 Zanzibar cable on the East Coast of Africa ? — In the 
 African service subsidies were given to the Eastern 
 Company to lay cables partly for strategic p\irposes, 
 
 ♦ Annexnre above.
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDRXCE. 
 
 13 
 
 12 Noi-emher 1913.] 
 
 Mi\ Edward Cbabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications -. Post and Telegraph. 
 
 aud we seized the opportunity to combine that with the 
 reduction of rates. Perhaps it would be interesting if I 
 read a part of the Treasury minute which relates to the 
 South African rate : " My Lords have before them a 
 '• report on certain proposals for a reduction in the 
 " cable i-ates to South Africa whicli Iia\e resulted from 
 " the recent negotiations between representatives of 
 " the South African Governments and the Eastern 
 '■ and South African Telegrajih Company." They go 
 on to recite the proposals : That on the termination in 
 1899 of the subsidies at present paid to the company 
 by the associated Governments they shall be re- 
 placed by a new subsidy of 17,000?. payable for 10 
 years, but the Company shall forthwith make reduc- 
 tions over the whole of the subsidised lines, aud 
 they quote them: " Diu-ing the last five of the 
 •' above-mentioned ten years the Government shall 
 " receive one half of any gross revenue in excess of 
 " 180,000?. " Then this is the important point : - My 
 " Lords desire to record their appreciation of the 
 " efforts which liave been made by the South African 
 " Governments to obtain a reduction in the rates and 
 " the libei'al spii'it in which those efforts have been 
 " met by the Company. They would be glad to render 
 " such assistance as they can towards the attainment 
 " of the object in view. My Lords must, liowever, 
 " point out that it has never been the jiolicy of thi.s 
 " country to subsidise telegraph companies in order tcj 
 " secure or compensate them for reduction in the lutes 
 " charged for ordinary messages. Such a coiu'se would 
 " involve an imposition on the general tax-payer of a 
 " charge which would enable only a limited use ti:) 
 " persons who used tlie cable and coulil not l)e justi- 
 " tied in their Lordships' opinion. From this position 
 " they are not prepared to depart. But as the pro- 
 " posals now before them include a consideral)le re- 
 " duction in the rates for messages sent on public 
 " service my Lords are willing to make such a contri- 
 " bution towards the required subsidy as would 
 " represent the economy which might be expected to 
 " result from the reduction, and in making their calcu- 
 " lations for this purpose they have taken a somewhat 
 " liberal view of the amount of telegraphing which 
 " may be expected to be necessary in the future ; " and 
 in reporting the matter to the House tliey say, " My 
 ■' Lords, having regard to the extent of the telegi-aphic 
 " business of the Government with the Eastern and 
 " South Africa Companies and to the saving from the 
 " reduction of the charges for Government telegrams, 
 " consider themselves justified in asking Parliament 
 " to ratify the agreements in question." That posi- 
 tion, I think, we still hold, although there is the salient 
 exception provided in the last agreement with the West 
 India and Panama. 
 
 \l'.i!j. Would you kindly explain the proposed 
 arrangement for a subsidy with the West India and 
 Panama? — That is a su})sidy to the company half- 
 and-half between ourselves and Canada aud adopted 
 at the instance of tlie Canadian Government to 
 pay tlie West India and Panama Company, on con- 
 dition that they reduced their rates, Ki.OOO/. a year, 
 shared equally by the Imperial and Canadian Govera- 
 ments for ten years, plus existing subsidies of 10.:?00/. 
 a year from the West Indies for the same term, aud 
 after the first four years one-lialf of the amount, if any. 
 by which the revenue exceeds the existing revenue 
 (the existing revenue being taken at 74.000/.) will be 
 deducted from the subsidy up to the total amount of 
 the subsidy. The chief reductions are : The ordinaiy 
 rates between the British West Indies, including 
 British Guiana on the one hand and the United 
 Kingdom and the first zone of North America on the 
 other, will lie reduced to 2s. 6d. and Is. 6d. a word 
 respectively. The existing rates from the United 
 Kingdom were from 3s. 6rf. to 5s. The first zone of 
 North America includes the New England States and 
 New York and the neai-est Canadian provinces and 
 Newfoundland. " The rates between the British 
 " West Indies, including British Guiana, thus \viU be 
 " reduced by half, with a maximum of Is. 3d. a word 
 " and a minimum of Is. a message ; the press also to 
 " be reduced to one half the new ordinary rates, plus 
 " a further reduction of lid. a word for Transatlantic 
 
 " transmission made by the Western Union." That is 
 an exception to the ordinary practice, and is a subsidy 
 given directly for the reduction of rates to the West 
 Indies. 
 
 236. And is therefore an infraction of the principle ? 
 — Is therefore a departure from the policy ordinarily 
 followed. 
 
 237. Turning to the question of the Atlantic cable 
 you state that the revenue expected can only be 
 30,0O0Z. a year against an annual estimated cost of 
 .50,000?. a year?— Yes. 
 
 238. That is entirely Australian traffic outside any- 
 thing which can be hoped for from Canada or the 
 United States ?— Yes. 
 
 239. Do you not anticipate any traffic at all fi-om 
 Canadian sources ? — No, it is not safe to anticipate any 
 because the land lines in Canada as well as in tiie 
 United States are in the hands of private companies, 
 the companies which run the cables, and there is no 
 reason to suppose that they would go out of their way 
 to hand over messages to a State-owned cable which 
 was competing with them. 
 
 240. Is that a satisfactory state of affairs, that all 
 Canadian traffic should be routed away from the pro- 
 posed North Atlantic cable ? — It is a matter which we, 
 on this side, can scarcely interfere with. There have 
 been proposals again and again renewed, that the 
 United States and Canada respectively should buy up 
 the laud lines and start a Government system of 
 telegraphs. They have not come to anything yet so 
 far as I know ; and all we (^au say, looking at it from 
 this side of the Atlantic, is that it is bound to be 
 enormously expensive. 
 
 241. What are your powers over the Atlantic Cable 
 C(nnpanies ? — We cimtrol the rates for the Western 
 Union group, aud shall control the rates for the 
 Commercial group as soon as the Commercial Com- 
 pany's licence falls in in 191.5. We control them by 
 virtue of our power to suspend the landing hcence, but 
 that power can only be used to a limited extent. 
 As I have already explained, we were told emphatically 
 — in the last instance by Lord Balfour of Bm-leigh's 
 Committee — that we were not to use that power regard- 
 less of the position of the companies ; it was to be 
 used mainly to meet unreasonable proposals from them 
 or unreasonable rates. 
 
 242. Can it be used to obtain reductions which you 
 think reasonable ? — It can be used very sparingly. It is 
 obvious that it must be used with tlie greatest discretion. 
 
 243. You depend, then, on the competition between 
 the two Atlantic cable groups for any possible reduction 
 of Atlantic rates ? — On that and the possible effect of 
 wireless traffic. 
 
 244. Are the two Atlantic cable groups in free 
 competition ? — -Yes, they are in very sharp competition. 
 
 245. Do you anticipate any reduction in the Atlantic 
 rates independently of what might be brought about 
 by a State Atlantic cable? — The Postmaster-General. 
 in negotiating with the Western Union Cable Company, 
 distinctly declined to commit himself to any statement 
 that he might not ask for a f m-ther reduction in future. 
 Of course we secured reductions from that group a 
 little time ago, and he warned tliem fairly then that 
 it miglit be the case that he should ask for further 
 reductions in the future, l>ut there is no j^roposal to do 
 so at present. 
 
 246. Now you say hei-e that the recent decision 
 permitting the use of combination codes lias proved 
 tantamount to a reduction in the code rate by at least 
 50 per cent. ? — Yes, that is om- estimate. 
 
 247. If that is so, your deferred rate, which is half 
 your full rate, and which prohibits code, is practically 
 a very small concession ■ — It is a concession made to 
 the users of plain language, to the people who are not 
 supposed in the ordinary way to use code. 
 
 248. You see great difficulty in allowing dictionary 
 words to be used in these deferred telegrams ?— I think 
 it is practically impossible; we have tested it and 
 found it impossible to distinguish dictionary words 
 from words which are not dictionary words. To do 
 so om- counterman — the telegraphist — the man who 
 accepts the telegram over the counter of the office — 
 would have to be very closely acquainted with eight
 
 u 
 
 DOMINIONS llOiAL COMMISSION : 
 
 12 November litl3.] 
 
 Mr. Edwahd Cbabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 languages. I remember that when we were ti-ying to 
 enforce the use of dictionary words a man would come 
 in, ijutting perhaps an Italian prefix to a Latin snflSx, 
 and claim that that was a tlictionary word. The 
 counter clerk i|ueried it, and the sender would prac- 
 tically throw it upon him t<i say why it was not a 
 dictioniiiy word, and this it was impossible for him to 
 do ; there was constant friction between the pnbhc 
 and our comiter clerks. 
 
 249. Would it not be possible to have your own 
 code which would be aUowable for defen-ed telegrams y 
 —You mean that we should build up a code of oiu- own ? 
 
 2.50. Yes.— Composed of .= 
 
 2-51. Dictionary words. — It would be possible to do 
 so, of course ; I do not think it would be effective. 
 
 2'y2. Do you see ;uiy objection to the idea .= It 
 might prove a considerable facilitation for the users of 
 defei-red telegrams; they could not use their own 
 private codes of composite words, but a specified 
 dictionary would be allowable ; it would be an inter- 
 mediate stage between plain language and code ? — 
 Again, I think there would lie a difficulty on the part 
 of the counter clerk iu deciding whether this code was 
 being used or not — whether .the words used were 
 dictlonaiy words. He deals with a telegram hajided 
 in to him : he sees some luieouth-lookmg compovmd 
 and questii)U.s thiit that is a tlictionary word. He has 
 not neces.sarUy got the code which we have buUt up ; 
 it would be a very expensive business to supijly it to 
 every office. The man handing it in says, - This is a 
 dictionary word," whereas it is not as a matter of fact. 
 Look at the words used iu a dictionary code now. 
 Some of the compounds (I do not know all the eight 
 languages) are to me luirecognisable as words. 
 
 253. Siu-ely that difficulty could be got over by 
 giving your counter clerk copies of yom- code H — It 
 would be very expensive ; there are a good many offices 
 in England. Your code would be a large one to be of 
 service 
 
 2.">4. Then this Commission sent home from Aus- 
 tralia certain proposals for the facilitiition and the 
 extension of the use nf deferred and week-end tele- 
 gi-ams. I shoidd like you to give us one by one the 
 views of the Post Office upon those pi-oposals. I will 
 read them out for your information. We suggest 
 '■that the minimum length of week-end telegrams " (of 
 24 words) " should be reduced to 12 words, costing 
 t> shillings '' ? — I feel some doubt as to whether I am the 
 proper witness, with submissinn, to be a.sked this par- 
 ticular question. We are in correspondence with the 
 Cable Board, and the Cable Board have iu effect agreed 
 to a minimum of 20 words, but we do not control them, 
 and while we are iiuite willing that this should be 
 carried into effect — or jjiut of it at least — it is for 
 them to say, really. 
 
 255. Quite, but speakiug solely from the Post Office 
 point of view, do you see any objections to the pro- 
 posals which we madey — The Post Office would not 
 object to a reduction of rate if that can lie effected. 
 AVliat it is particularly anxious for at present in the 
 week-end calde message is the introduction of .the 
 single i-ate ; that is to say, that you should be able to 
 charge a i-ate here when the message is handed iu that 
 will cover telegi-aphic transmission to the destina- 
 tion and, if necessary, telegraphic transmission to the 
 cable at tliis end. Of com-se a message is transmitted 
 over the cable by telegraph, but at either end it can be 
 sent by post — either or both : and we find that that 
 causes au infinity of trouble in om- office. The sender 
 finds a difficulty in \inderstanding the regulations, and 
 our counter clerks find a difficulty in ascertaining what 
 it is he wants. 
 
 256. That was one of our further recommendations 
 which I imderstaud the Post Office is strongly in 
 favoiu- of H — Yes, very strongly in favour- of it. 
 
 257. Our second proposal was that " dictionaiy " 
 code words might be permitted in defeiTed telegrams ; 
 that you have already dealt with ? — Yes. 
 
 258. •■ We are further informed that a further 
 " reduction t>f six pence per word iu week-end messages 
 " would lead to. a large extension of weekly telegraphic 
 " market reports and to some replacement of post by 
 
 " calde."' Can you give any opinion upon that ? — 
 That is. the chai-ge for week-end telegrams to be reduced 
 to 6d. ? 
 
 25!1. Yes, from 9rf.— The rate of 9(?. was fixed by 
 the Pa<'ific Cable Board, iuid it seems suitalile having 
 regard to the existing ordiuarj- and deferred rates, but 
 it is a matter really for the Pacific Cable Board to 
 consider rather than for us. 
 
 260. As far as the Post Office is concemed, I 
 take it you have no objection ? — We have no rooted 
 objection. 
 
 2l>l. Can you give us any general view as to the 
 effect of reductions of rate on the development of 
 ti-affic in these long cable routes ? — I do not think we 
 can give much that is useful; the cable comj)anies 
 themselves. I think, are the only people who could 
 give you information that would be worth much. I 
 have some figures hei-e of i-ather old date, but I 
 do not wish to place very much weight on them. 
 In May 1886 the rate to New York was reduced from 
 Is. 8'/. to 6d., as a cutting rate in the competition 
 between the Atlantic cable companies. The reduced 
 i-ate was in operation two years, and according to 
 statements made to us then by the Anglo-American 
 Telegraph Comjiany the reduction resulted in ;in 
 iucx-eased ti-affic of 140 per cent. The financial effect 
 was very unsatisfactory, and the i-ate was ultimately 
 incx-eased to Is. The voliune of traffic remained about 
 the same. It was afterwards stated to us that when 
 the traffic had settled down to the new rate it was 
 about 20 per cent, less than the ti-affic at the Ctd. i-ate. 
 Then to India in 1902 the rate was i-educed from is. 
 to 2«. (yd. The increase of traffic was siiid to have 
 amounted to about 26 • 5 per cent. It was part of the 
 arrangement between the Indian Government and the 
 cable companies, that when the gross revenue at 2«. Gd. 
 equalled the revenue at 4s. the rate shoidd Ije further 
 reduced to 2s. The reduction was made in 1905, 
 and Mr. Austen Chamberlain, then Chancellor of the 
 Excheiiuer. said he did not think the great iucrease of 
 traffic which had ensued had been caused by the reduc- 
 tion in the rates. He attributed it to other causes. 
 I ha\e some fm-ther figuies vdth regard to the South 
 African imtes which may te of interest. The i-ates to 
 South Africa were reduced in 1899 to 4s.. in 1901 to 
 ;5s. dd.. in 1902 to 3s.. and in 1903 to 2s. 6d. a word. 
 The residts, I think, show how difficult it is to assess 
 the effect of the reduction of rate by itself on traffic. 
 Of course, there were disturbing factors here in the 
 form of the war and other matters, liut the net result 
 is that in 1911 the Company was earning at a 2s. Gd. 
 rate almost exactly the same gross I'evenue as in 1898 
 at the 5.S. rate ; in other words, it was doing twice the 
 amount of work for the same money. I only quote 
 these figures to show how extremely difficult it is for 
 us, at least in the Post Office, to form anj' judgment. 
 There ai-e disturbing factors here in the form of 
 dejiression of trade and the war which make them 
 valueless. 
 
 202. I understand, in Australia and New Zealand, 
 the reductions in telegraph rates which have lieen 
 made there have resulted in very large increases of 
 traffic and the utilisation of facilities by the public)' 
 — The increases of late have been mainly in the 
 direction of the deferred telegram and the cable letter 
 work tlu-ough the Pacific cable. 
 
 ijtio. What is yom- view as to the success of those 
 two experiments .'' — Of the deferred telegram and the 
 cable letter ? 
 
 264. Yes. — It must be admitted that they meet a 
 great want. There must be people who, while wishing 
 to send intelligence to their friends quicker than ciin 
 be done liy the post, do not min<l 24 or 48 hours' 
 deferment, and to those people I imagine that the 
 cable letter and the deferred telegram must pi-ove a 
 great Ixjon. 
 
 265. Has the growth of that ti-affic been satis- 
 factory ? — Yes. 
 
 266. Although, as it was stated to us, in Austi-alia 
 the pid'lic are very imperfectly acquainted with the 
 facilities now offered .■* — If it is meant that the public 
 in England are imperfectly acquainted, the statement
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCB, 
 
 15 
 
 12 Ntrvemher 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Overaea Communications ; Post and Telegraph. 
 
 seems scarcely justified. We did all we could to 
 acquaint the public ; we advertised it ; full iiarticulars 
 were g-iven in the Post Office Guide, which can be 
 consulted free of charge at any jjost office ; and we 
 placarded the post offices with it ; and our counter 
 clerks woidd know, if any person eomes in and 
 wishes to send a telegram to Australasia, and is in 
 doubt what to do, and asks for information, that these 
 facilities should be brought to his notice. I do not 
 see that we can easily do more. 
 
 267. I do not know the statement was made that 
 it was imperfectly known in England, but imperfectly 
 known in Australia ? — It may be there ; I cannot tell ; 
 l)ut in England I think we have done all we can do. 
 
 268. You have given the fullest publicity to the 
 facilities oifered ? — Yes, quite as full publicity as we 
 do to any other improvement. 
 
 269. (Sir Alfred Bate nan.) As regards that publicity, 
 I tliink in Australia, so far from publicity having 
 been given, we were told at one or two places that 
 the counter clerks did not know of these facilities ; 
 you think that could never be the case here .' — I think 
 it would be an irregularity if it were the case here ; if 
 the counter clerk said he did not know of these 
 facilities, we should want to know why that counter 
 clerk was not properly acquainted with his duty. 
 
 270. You think that would be imiiossible here F — 
 Nothing is impossible, because people are forgetful 
 and foolish, but it ought to be impossible. 
 
 271. You quoted the case of South Africa and the 
 reductions there at the cost of doing double work for 
 the same money ; did it cost you more ? — It did cost 
 the company more. 
 
 272. In increasing the load, the number of messages 
 up to a certain point, does that cost more ? — You have 
 got so much less per word. The old rate was os. a 
 word, and the new rate 2s. 6d. a word, and you did 
 twice the amount of biisiness. 
 
 27;?. You have double the numlier of words ; does 
 that necessarily cost more? — Certainly, you are using 
 your cable more ; you are using your staff more if you 
 increase the traffic, and if you increase the traffic 
 Ijeyond a certain point, supposing you have a cable 
 loaded nearly up to its full capacity, and you put 
 50 per cent, on to the load, you may increase your 
 expenses enormously because you may liave to lay a 
 new cable. 
 
 274. But up to a certain point only, using your 
 cable more would not necessarily cost anything, would 
 it ? — I think it must cost you more if only in expenses 
 for staff. 
 
 275. You mean that the staff were fully employed 
 before P — The cost would be under staff' and mainten- 
 ance. I take it the cable companies supply an excess 
 staff no more than we do ; it would be bad adminis- 
 tration to do so. 
 
 276. Is it at all easy to arrange the staff' so as not 
 to have a certain amount of spare time ? — In arranging 
 staff yoB must have a certaiUi amount of spare time. 
 In no staff with which I am acquainted is a man 
 occupied every minute of every day during tlie time he 
 is on duty, but you must always leave a margin, and if 
 you double the amount of work done in your office, 
 while you need not double the staff', perhaps, you 
 must largely increase it. 
 
 277. In the South African case tliere was a large 
 further exjpense incui-red ? — I presume so ; we are 
 talking of the calile company of course, and I have not 
 the Eastern Telegraj)h Company's accounts. I simply 
 know that their revenue, the amount they tcjok for 
 doing double the amount of woi'k, was just the same 
 as they were taking in 1898. I cannot go fm-ther than 
 that their expenses were presumably much increased. 
 
 278. But you have not the figures and you do not 
 know about the expenses ? — I have not the company's 
 figures and I cannot know that. 
 
 279. Only one other point ; you spoke about the 
 North American traffic and its condition by which you 
 are allowed until 1920 to give to one of the cable 
 companies all telegrams for Noi-th America which bear 
 no indication of route ; and you are boimd not to 
 invite the sender to specify a route. That was rather 
 a, valuable consideration, was it not ? — Yes. * 
 
 280. Did you get much for it ? — We inherited it. 
 
 281. You did not make that concession yourself? — 
 The history of it is this, that when the telegraphs in 
 England were taken over by the State the Land 
 Company that we bought up was tied to two cable 
 companies (one of those cable companies no longer 
 exists) and was bound to give them all its traffic. We 
 took that obligation over and it was an obligation 
 which lasted for 30 years, that is to say from 1870 up 
 to 1900. We also took over an obligation that the 
 company had a claim to a renewal, and the comisany did 
 claim a renewal in 1900, and ^vished to go on until 
 1930. It was compromised at 1920. Subsequently 
 the Anglo-American, which is the company in ques- 
 tion, was practically amalgamated' with the Western 
 Union. 
 
 282. So that you partly inherited this condition 
 and you bargained about it ? — Yes, we bargained about 
 the extension — the extension from 1900. They had a 
 claim for an extension. 
 
 283. You consider they had a good claim for an 
 extension ; you could not have got out of it altogether ? 
 — We could not ha'.-e got out of it, but we got out of 
 10 years — 10 years of their claim. 
 
 284. I gather you are in thorough sympathy with a 
 i-eduction in the deferred rates so as to make com- 
 mmiications witli om- kinsmen in Australia easier ? — 
 We are always ready to assist at a reasonable reduction 
 of rate. 
 
 285. But you spoke yourself just now about the 
 desirability of people there being able to communicate 
 home ? — I said I thought the deferred i-ate had been 
 a great boon to many people ; I think it has, and I 
 think it has justified itself. 
 
 286. You take it a little bit beyond the bare com- 
 mercial view ? — Yes, we get outside the commercial 
 limit sometimes, 
 
 287. A little bit now and then ? — We are bound to 
 be primarily commercial. 
 
 288. (Mr. Gamphell.) As to the competition between 
 these rival combinations which control the Atlantic 
 cables, is it not a fact that there is an agreement 
 between these combinations in regard to i-ates ? — Not 
 that I know of ; if one set fetches down its rates the 
 other has to bring them down also, otherwise it gets 
 less traffic, but I do not know myself of any agi-eement. 
 I imagine that they consult each other; I have no 
 doubt they do. 
 
 289. Is there not, as a matter of fact, an mider- 
 standing between them with regard to rates ? — Not 
 that I know of ; if so it is a private understanding with 
 which I am not officially acquainted. 
 
 290. That is the thing on which the department 
 depends for any reduction of rates which might be 
 expected in the Atlantic business — that competition ?— 
 On that and on oui- control of the landing rights and 
 as a mere possibility, the force of which one cannot 
 assess now, the competition of wireless. 
 
 291. Did I understand you to say in reply to the 
 Chairman that the Post Office would be very cautious 
 about exercising its power over the landing riglits in 
 order t© compel a reduction ? — It is not an absolute 
 control ; all we can do if we refuse landing rights, 
 unless they specify i-eductions, wovdd be, if the com- 
 pany chose to lie obdurate, to take them before the 
 Railway Commission ; and the Railway Commission is 
 bound to have consideration of the company's 
 financial position, among other things. It is not in 
 our power to say simply, " If you do not reduce 
 " your rate from one shilling to sixpence, you had 
 " better take up your cable," l>ecause they have got 
 an appeal. 
 
 292. The idea is that it woidd be exercised in the 
 event of an increase of rates ; is that it ? — It would be 
 properly exercised against anj-thing vmreasonable, but 
 we should have to show that what we were objecting to 
 was unreasonable, having regai'd not only to the 
 interests of the public, but to fair consideration fox the 
 company's jiosition. 
 
 293. With regard to the statement of the Post 
 Office that they would not expect any volnme of 
 
 B 1
 
 IfJ 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAJ. COMMISSION : 
 
 VZ Kovcmhc- 191:!.] 
 
 Mr. Edwakd C'kabu, 
 
 [Oversea Coinmunicntiinis : I'oat mnl Teleyraph. 
 
 Cauadian business on an Atlantic cable, the reason 
 why that increase is not expected is stated to be to 
 the fact that the land line is within the control of the 
 cable companies operating acmss the Atlantic? — Yes. 
 the land lines are part of the cable companies' system. 
 
 29-i. Is that a fact? Is it not a fact that the 
 Pacilic Cable Board at present controls the main line 
 as far as Montreal ? — As far as Montreal, yes ; it rents 
 the line, but that means that the Calile Board can g;et 
 its Austi-alian ti-affic transmitted to Montreal over its 
 own lines, but you will want traffic coming not only 
 from places on that line — to make any diiference you ■ivill 
 ■want tiTiffic coming from the whole of Canada or traffic 
 coming from the United States as well, and if it is 
 handed in at any place other than the Pacific Cable 
 Board's office 
 
 295. Quite so, but still it would give a reasonable 
 expectation that a large vohmie of traffic could be 
 expected from Western Canada over the Atlantic 
 cables ?■ — The Pacific Cable Board themselves do not 
 seem to expect it : in point of fact, the calctdations on 
 ■which we base our statement there are Pacific Calile 
 Board calculations. 
 
 29fi. With regard to the loss which is theorised, to 
 what year do those figures refer on which that expected 
 loss of 20,000/. a year is based ? — On the existing 
 figures : originally when Mi\ Samuel made his speech 
 before the Imperial Conference we estimated the loss 
 at 30.000?.. but the Pacific Cable Board traffic has gone 
 up since then, we understand, so we cut our estimate 
 of loss to 20.000/. to allow for that. 
 
 297. Then in a year — or, rather, in two years — the 
 expected loss has fallen from 30,000/. to 20,000/. ; do 
 you not think there is a reasonable expectation that 
 within a short period of time the loss would be trans- 
 formed into a profit ? — I do not know that you can 
 count upon the cable companies maintaining their 
 existing rates if they wanted to face the competiticm 
 of a State-owned cable. It is clear that you can lay a 
 State-owned cable if yoxi like, and use it to cut rates. 
 You can, in point of fact, get anything yovi please that 
 you can pay for, whether you pay your money in the 
 form of subsidy or a State-owned cable, or guarantee 
 of a company's revenxie ; the epiestion, which is not one 
 for me, is, whether it would be justifiable to lay upon 
 the general taxpayer that cost for the benefit of a 
 compai-atively small traffic and the people making it. 
 
 298. One would think it would be quite as fair as 
 to invest the taxpayers' money in the Pacific cable, 
 which has been losing money heavily since — at any 
 Incite, it was losing money heavily about the beginning 
 of its career ? — Yes. 
 
 299. That was the taxpayers' money ? — Yes. 
 
 300. It was expended in the expectation that ulti- 
 mately the line would pi-ove a commercial success, was 
 it not ? — Yes, it has not proved a commercial success 
 yet, of coui'se, but it may. It will take time befoie 
 it will be a commercial success in the way in which 
 a commercial man calculates intei'est on his money. 
 
 301. Quite so; but a ccmimercial success looked at 
 from the point of view of the return of interest on the 
 Government expenditui-e. Could you give the Com- 
 mission any idea as to what is the relative value of the 
 sei-vices performed by the Pacific Cable Board and 
 the Atlantic cable companies in the transmission of 
 messages. Is there a fair allocation of cliarges now 
 on the total of the messages ? — Yes, I should think 
 there is. 
 
 302. You think the amount (lie Pacific Cable Board 
 gets in comparison with the ([uantity of woi-k it does is 
 proportioned to the amount received l>y the Atlantic 
 cable companies ? — I slightly misiuiderstood the ques- 
 tion. Yes, I should think it is, fairly. 
 
 303. You think that propoi-tion is a fair one ? — Yes. 
 301. In reply to the Chairman, you gave some 
 
 figiu'es dealing with the eifect of the reduction of rates. 
 Some of the figures you gave were those relating to 
 the Eastern Extension Company's business ■with South 
 Africa ? — Yes. 
 
 305. And I think you quoted the years 1898, when 
 the rate was 5,«. a word, and 1911, when it had lieen 
 i-educed to 2s. 6(i. ? — Yes. 
 
 306. That was so. was it not? — Yes; in 1898 it was 
 a OS. rate, and in 1911 it was a 2*-. M. rate. 
 
 307. But even on those figures, do they not show 
 that the volume of business had increased meanwhile — 
 had doubled? — Yes; the interesting point. 1 think, is 
 that the calile company got almost exactly the same 
 amount for the 5s. rate that it did ioT the 2s. %d. rate. 
 I mean in gross revenue. 
 
 308. The company was still making a profit out of 
 its business ? — That I cannot say ; the company pays 
 a dividend and a good one. but whether they would 
 admit they made a profit over that section of their 
 lines I do not know. 
 
 309. Still the fact remains that the company's 
 business had doubled in the meanwhile ?; — Yes. 
 
 310. And, as a matter of fact. I suppose you have 
 the figures for 191(* and 1912 before you, wliich show 
 that in 1910 the receipts were 290,000/. and in 1912 
 278.000/., as against 271,000/. in 1911 ?— Your figures 
 do not quite agree with mine ; it is about that, but I 
 only quoted these South African figures, if I may 
 remind you. to show that we really had very little 
 trustworthy information, and that the Post Office was 
 not in a position to offer you any expert evidence on 
 the effect of the reduction of rate on ti^affic. 
 
 311. Yes. but I think you will admit that the year 
 1911 shows figures which are more favotu-able to the 
 riew you are apparently piutting before the Commis- 
 sion than any other of the four years backwards from 
 the pi-esent date ? — If I had taken the period from 
 1898 to 1908 I think my view would have been still 
 more strongly enforced. 
 
 312. But "1909. 1910, and 1912 would show 
 
 — 1909 and 1910 were better yeai-s — 1912 also is a 
 somewhat better year. 
 
 313. On the subject of the expected increase of 
 traffic from a reduction of rates, do you not think that 
 in Australia, where there is a very ineffective postal 
 communication, where there is two months between a 
 mail and a reply, as compared with 1 2 days in America, 
 there would be a very much larger field for an expected 
 increase of business resulting from a reduction of I'ates 
 than there would be in the case of America ? — It 
 might be so. 
 
 314. You think that would be so ? — It might be so. 
 The existence of the high teiininal Australian rate has 
 a bearing on the question. 
 
 315. I did not quite catch you. — New Zealand. I 
 think, has put foi-ward a proposal that the terminal 
 Australian rate should be reduced from bd. to \d. — ad. 
 is the present share that Australia takes — and Australia 
 has not hitherto seen her way to reduce it. That is a 
 tolerably obvious reduction of rates in hands othei- than 
 ours, and that would be practically a certain reduction 
 of 4(7. a word. 
 
 31 li. On the subject of codifying, you made some 
 replies to the Chairman : could you tell the Com- 
 mission what is the saving on the coding of a message 
 as against plain language messages ? — I cannot very 
 certaiidy. When Mr., now Sir John, Lamb, a much 
 greater expert in these matters than I could claim 
 to be, came before one of the former Committees, if 
 my memory ser\-es me, he then estimated that the 
 average code wo'-d equalled seven words in plain 
 language, and he put in a code message where one 
 word equalled 128 words in plain language ; and the 
 cable companies always tell us that the number of 
 jilain language words represented by one code com- 
 bination is veiT high indeed. 1 have very little means 
 of knowing, because, naturally, when a man hand.s in 
 a telegram he does not also hand in a translation, and it 
 may represent anything. But there is no doubt that a 
 man <-an now under the new codes, which enable him to 
 use really what is called a condensed code — that is, a code 
 on a code — if he likes, take more plain language into 
 his code message than he cotdd befiue. Whether he 
 does it or not I cannot say, because I take it that it is 
 quite possible that a man may write down his plain- 
 language message and hand it to his clerk, and say, 
 "Code that for me as cheaply as you can " ; and the 
 clerk may code it cheaply or not ; but supposing that 
 six plain words to a code combination is the correct
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 17 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edwaed Ceabb, c.b. [Ooeraea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 amount, then wlien you use a code to Australia you 
 are telegraphiuy; to Australia very cheaply ; you are 
 telegraphing at sixpence a word. 
 
 317. You have not got any reliable figures that you 
 could give us to show the saving on code messages y 
 — No ; I think you will see it is impossible for me to 
 give any. I am simply guessing. 
 
 318. (Mr. Garnett.) When we were in Australia we 
 heard certain cases which seemed to us to inflict eon- 
 sideralile hardship on persons sending week-end cables 
 from this country. We were told that there was not 
 sufficient knowledge available here for them to be 
 aware that they could only cable to the cable centres, 
 and that unless they paid another 6f/. to have their 
 week-end cable sent on, these messages might be weeks 
 before they reached their destination. Is there no 
 means whereby jieople on this side could have it set 
 plainly before them that if they send a cable-letter to 
 Australia, an<l if they want this transmitted at once, 
 they have an e.xtra 'nd. tcj pay ? It seems to lis that 
 lack of knowledge as to this might inflict very great 
 hardship ? — We give the information now as far as we 
 can. In the Post Oflice Guide, which may be con- 
 sulted free of charge at any post office, there is a full 
 statement of the conditions under which a cable-letter 
 can be sent. We placarded the post offices with the 
 announcement of the introduction of the cable-letter 
 system, and those placards remain there, and our 
 counter clerks, who receive the telegrams over the 
 counter, are neglecting their duty if, when a man 
 comes to the office and says, " I want to telegraph to 
 Australia " (to some place, perhaps, in the back part 
 of Austi-alia), " what is the cheapest way in which I 
 can do it ? " they do not briug the facilities fully 
 before him. We cannot do any more than we do. 
 May I ask is there any suggestion of what other steps 
 we can take ? I do not think there was any such 
 suggestion in the evidence you are referring to. 
 
 319. The evidence I am referring to was the 
 evidence of Mr. Osenham, the Secretary of the Post- 
 master-General's department in Melbourne, and the 
 questions are on pages 175 and 176* arising out of 
 questions put by Mr. Bowring and myself — particularly 
 question 38.57 by Mr. Bowring ?— 1 do not see that 
 Mr. Oxenham proposes any additional measures to be 
 taken here. 
 
 .320. And subsequent questions asked by myself. 
 Question 3870 to question 3877 and its answer, and 
 3878, and the two or three following questions. It 
 seemed to us to be making a very large demand on 
 the knowledge of the average individual in England 
 in expecting him to be aware that a week-end cable 
 letter which he might send in the faith of its being 
 delivered very quickly, might be weeks before reaching 
 its destination, and the question we addressed to the 
 witness was : Is there any means whereby the Ansti-alian 
 Postal Guide coidd be so improved as to make the 
 information more accessible to yom- clerks here in 
 England, and therefore more accessible to people who 
 wished to cable ? Mr. Oxenham said it was not 
 impossible, but that it would be a very big job — see 
 his answer to question 3878. — The clerk who receives 
 the messages here has a list of telegraph offices. If a 
 man were sending a cable letter to a place which did 
 not contain a telegraph office that would be kno^NTi or 
 could be known ; they have a list of all the telegraph 
 offices. The senderof a cable letterl suppose is generally 
 telegraphing to his friend or his relation and it is 
 surely for him to know what kind of place it is at 
 which Ills friend or relation is living. He cannot 
 reasonably call upon the post office to go beyond a 
 certain length in supplying his failure to "furnish 
 himself with information. 
 
 321. (Chairman.) That is, providing that the 
 message goes by telegram to its destination, which I 
 think you say you desire ? — Yes, what we wish is that 
 the single rate should cover transmission by telegram 
 to the destination, and we hope to get the Pacific Gable 
 Board to agree to that : we are negotiating now. 
 
 * Of [Cd. 7171]. 
 
 c 20830 
 
 322. (Mr. Ganieft.) The particular cases we were 
 tliinking of were not cases in the course of an ordinary 
 day or couples of days' passage ; those are not the cases 
 of hardship. The cases of hardship are those where 
 several weeks perhaps may elapse, but Mr. Oxenham 
 says in answer to question 3861 that cable letters 
 
 "■could get by telegraph to every plaee where there 
 is a telegraph office ; which practically means to every 
 settlement of any size in Australia ? — Yes. 
 
 323. Is it beyond the power of the combined efforts 
 (if the two Postal Authorities, here and in Australia, 
 to compile a list whereby the man who sends a tele- 
 gi-am by looking at the place may know that if he 
 wants it to get away in a reasonable time to its 
 destination he must pay an extra 6d. ; it is the 
 ignoi-ance of the extra 6d. which has to be paid for 
 delivei-y which constitutes the hardship ? — 1 think 
 that, if I may hand it to yoM (lianding the Post Office 
 Guide to the Honourable Commissioner), that is a pretty 
 fidl explanation, but if you can suggest anything that 
 could be added to that page which would meet your 
 view, I am quite sure we should be ready to take any 
 steps you can suggest to us. That book is in every 
 post office, and can be consulted by everyone who 
 comes in to send a telegram. 
 
 324. Then you would agree generally with 
 Mr. Oxenliam's policy, that the sender should have 
 no trouble at all with his message, and that it should 
 be transmitted subsequently by telegram without the 
 sender being bothered about that ? — Yes. 
 
 325. That it should be a through rate ? — Yes. that 
 is what we wish, and that is what we are trying to 
 arrange with the Pacific Cable Board, and we hope we 
 shall succeed. 
 
 326. (Chairman.) That is what you mean by a 
 single rate, really an inclusive rate ? — That is so. 
 
 327. (Mr. Garnett.) That would, of course, meet 
 these cases which we have specifically in our minds .' — 
 Yes. 
 
 328. (Mr. Bowring.) You referred to the difficulty 
 there would be, if there was a State-owned Atlantic 
 cable, in getting through messages from Australasia, 
 because there was no control by the Pacific over the 
 land lines ? — You would get the ti-affic from Austra- 
 lasia, the Pacific Cable Board could route that. You 
 would not get all the traffic the other way, nor would 
 you get traffic to supplement your Australasian traffic 
 from Canada or the United States itself. The Pacific 
 Cable Board calculated that three-foui-ths of the 
 Australasian traffic would go to the proposed State- 
 owned cable, and it is on the assumption that three- 
 fourths of the traffic would go to the cable that we 
 made our calcidations. 
 
 329. And upon that you show a big loss? — Upon 
 that we think there would be a loss of 20.000?. under 
 present conditions. 
 
 330. But it would not appear that the land lines 
 create any great difficulty if the control of the Pacific 
 comes as far east as Montreal .■* — I thiuK, perhaps, I 
 have been misunderstood ; I was answering the Chair- 
 man's question, if I remember aright, whether we could 
 expect any traffic over the State-owned cable from the 
 United States or Canada itself to supplement the 
 Australasian traffic. The Australasian iriiffic is not 
 enough to make the cable pay. If you could supple- 
 ment that traffic by traffic from Canada or the United 
 States the circumstances would be altered, but we have 
 no hope of doing so. 
 
 331. And it was in that way that the difficulty came 
 in with the land lines ? — Yes 
 
 332. Not the difficulty in connecting the Pacific 
 cable with the proposed State-owned Atlantic cable ? — 
 No, there is no difticulty in that. If you had the State- 
 owned cable, you would have to rent or set up land 
 lines between Montreal and the cable-landing station, 
 and it is that which goes to make part of the assumed 
 capital expenditure of 560,000/. ; but there would be no 
 difficulty about that. 
 
 333. The land part of it from Montreal to the east 
 coast would not be very much ? — No. 
 
 334. At the present time, while there is competition 
 between the Atlantic cables in endeavouring to get as 
 great a part of the business as they can, there is no
 
 IS 
 
 DOMiyiOyS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edward Crabb. c.k 'Orrmea Coininunicotions : Post ami Telegraph. 
 
 difference in rates, is there ? — There is no difference in 
 rate, except that the Commercial group did not in 
 every case cive a similar reduction to that given by 
 the Western Union on the defeiTcd press. They did 
 not follow suit altogether. 
 
 33.5. The Commercial did not foUovr suit on the 
 press rate : in everv' other way the rates are the same ?^ 
 — The rates, taken generally, are the same. 
 
 o36. On these deferred rates were the addi-esses 
 allowed to l>e coded in any way. that is to say, addresses 
 on deferred and week-end messages, or had the ad- 
 dresses to be in full ; in other words, could you have 
 a short registered address? — Ton can. use a regis- 
 tered addi-ess for defen-ed messages as well as yov can 
 for an ordinary message. Tou must use plain l;ui- 
 guage in your te3d:. 
 
 -337. Coidd you code the address? — Tou can use 
 a registered address. 
 
 338. (Chairman.) Both for deferred and week-end ? 
 — Ton cannot for the week-end cable letter, uidess 
 delivered by telegram, when you can do it. If it is 
 delivered by post, you must have your fiill postal 
 address. Nor can we consent to such an altei-ation. 
 because it would form a precedent adverse to our 
 refusal to admit telegiaphie addi-esses as good for 
 letters. If you telegraph your week-end cable letter 
 all the wav. then you can use your telegi-ajihic address. 
 
 339. And that you advocate ? — That we advocate. 
 
 340. So that in effect you advocate the possibility 
 of using telegi-aphic addresses for week-ends ? — Tes. 
 
 341? (Mr. Bowring.) Can you tell me if theiT was 
 any alteration in the dividends of the cable companies 
 whilst the fif?. i-ate was in vogue ? Tou remember you 
 referred to the f>>i. i-ate having been adopted in certain 
 years — 1896. I think ? — There was a heavy loss on that 
 6<7. rate in the revenue, but I forget whether they 
 continued to pay a dividend or not. 
 
 342. Did not you say they did about double the 
 business for about the same revenue? — 140 per cent., 
 but their reveniie dropped tremendously. 
 
 343. I think you said they did twice the business 
 for the same revenue ? — I think you are confusing two 
 cases, that of the Transatlantic company and that of 
 the South African i-ates. There was a Is. Sd. rate when 
 the Transatlantic cable companies fell into very sharp 
 competition, and the rates came down to 6f7. I have 
 some figures from the Anglo-American Company at 
 that time and their revenue dropped very heavily 
 indeed. The reduction proved unremunei-ative. 
 
 344. Did the traffic increase ? — By 140 per cent. 
 The reduction was from Is. 8d. to Gd. 
 
 345. Tou say the revenue fell tremendously? — It 
 fell tremendously. 
 
 346. Do VOX! know whether that had any effect on 
 the dividend ? — I cannot say. 
 
 347. (Mr. Tatlow.) With regard to tliis proposed 
 Atlantic cable, if the estimate of the Post Office had 
 be«n to show that the cable would be anywhere near 
 self-paying. I presume the Post Office then would be 
 in favour of such a proposal — if instead of a loss of 
 20,000?. it had been -iome inconsiderable sum ? — 
 The Post Office position is that the present time is 
 inopportune in all ways. We know that wireless tele- 
 graphv is developing by leaps and bounds. We do not 
 know what effect wireless telegrapliy may have in cutting 
 rates, and no sooner would the State-owned cable be 
 laid than you might find there was no chance of making 
 it pay at the new figures. 
 
 348. Then it is chiefly on the score of what wireless 
 telegraphy may fulfil that tlip Post Office objection 
 exists ? — No, I think the Post Office objection is mainly 
 based on what it considers to be the absence of good 
 reasons alleged on the other side. 
 
 349. Does not the good reason alleged on the other 
 side probably tend to reduction of charges and keeping 
 the control of the cable throughout in Imperial hands. 
 and so meet the express wish of the Oversea Dominions ? 
 — We are always "most anxious to meat the express wish 
 of the _ Oversea Dominions, but if the single cable 
 barely pays its way one single interruption would 
 throw you on the wrong side of the balance sheet again. 
 Interruptions are more frec^uent, oi- have been at present 
 
 far more frequent, in the Atlantic than in the Pacific, 
 apparently due to some difference iu the sea-bed. Tou 
 might have to lay another cable and that probably 
 would double yoirr cost. 
 
 350. But that risk exists at present in a lesser 
 degree, you say. in the Pacific cable ? — It exists to a 
 lesser degree in the Pacific cable, and at any time a bad 
 interruption might alter the figiu-es for the Pacific 
 cable.. 
 
 3.51. The effect of an interruption would be to 
 reduce their profit or income for a given time ? — Tes. 
 
 3.52. It would not affect the public iu any con- 
 siderable degree, because the business coidd be done by 
 the other parties ? — Tou would have the alternative 
 routes. 
 
 3.53. Do you not think that estimate of a loss of 
 20,000/. looks a little worse than is warranted by the 
 facts ? Have yon taken into account the natural yearly 
 increase in the business of telegraphy ? — Tes. 
 
 354. And, again, does it not appear as if there 
 will be further advantages given by the Pacific Cabin 
 Board and that business will very largely increase from 
 Australasia ? Will not that minimise greatly, in the 
 com-se of ye;irs, this estimated 20.000/. loss ? — We 
 calculate to get three-quarters of the Australasian 
 westward traffic as it is and all the eastward: I do 
 not know why we should get very much more. 
 
 355. No, but is it not likely that the bulk of that 
 will increase largely ? The business is not likely to 
 stand still, especially in view of the additional facilities 
 which are contemplated ? — That is so : the traffic might 
 increase. 
 
 356. Considerably. Would it not reduce this 
 20.000/. to a comparatively small simi — such a sum 
 that the countries concerned might very well bear it, 
 and which in the course of yeai-s would probably 
 disappear ? — We cannot tell. 
 
 357. To my mind it seems veiy probable. Another 
 question : Assuming this Atlantic cable were made, 
 would it be administered by the Pacific Cable Boai-d as 
 an extension of the present cable ? — It might be worked 
 in several ways ; it might be jointly owned by England 
 and Canada. 
 
 358. In any case it would give Britain and the 
 Dominions a very large control, and a greater conti"ol 
 than they have at present, with reference to the ques- 
 tion of rates ? — Certainly ; you can lay your cable and 
 use it to cut rates. If you cut rates you increase your 
 ti'affic. 
 
 359. Haa the Pacific Cable Board, apart from its 
 obligations, whatever they may be, to the Eastern 
 Telegraph Company, a free hand as a Boai-d with regai-d 
 to the fixing of the charge ? — They could say, •• We 
 •■ will take so much, or we will take so much less." 
 
 360. Is the Post Office represented on that Board ? 
 — This country is represented. 
 
 361. What is the real distinction — I do not quite 
 understand — between week-end cable letters and week- 
 end cablegrams ; is there any distinction ? There is 
 only one week-end rate to Australia : is that a week-end 
 cablegram or cable letter, or is there any distinction ? 
 —There is no distinction ; we call them cable letters. 
 
 362. That means a cablegram with a minimum 
 number of words, does it not? — Tes. it is a short letter 
 sent by cable. Of course, you can send a telegram by 
 cable at th« week-end. if yon like, in the ordinary way. 
 
 363. (Jfr. Larimer.) In yoiu- memorandum a refer- 
 ence is made to the contention that a State-owned 
 calile should be laid across the Atlantic in case of 
 emergency, and your reply is that that emergency can 
 be met perfectly well \inder present conditions ; will 
 you kindly say how it could be met ? — I am prepared 
 to support that contention. 
 
 364. It is stated in the memorandum on a State- 
 owned Atlantic cable fiu-nished by the General Post 
 Office to the Commission. — At present the 13 cables 
 across the Atlantic start from British territory and 
 land in British territory. 
 
 365. But do you suggest that you would take 
 possession of these terminals and turn out the existing 
 operatoi-s and put in your own ? — It is rather a question
 
 MIKDTES OF EVIDEXCE. 
 
 19 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Oversea Commvmications ; Post and Telegraph. 
 
 for a naval or military witness than myself, as I 
 explained in the statement I read out to-day ; it is 
 more a matter for those Government seiTices charged 
 with defence than the Post Office, but it could be 
 done quite well. 
 
 360. On looking at the whole question from the 
 broad point of view, which natiu-ally we have to 
 consider, one naturally thinks of what might follow. 
 Do the landing licences make any provision for action 
 such as I suggest in a case of emergency ? — It does not 
 depend on landing licences merely, but it is surely 
 inherent in the fact that these stations are on British 
 territoiy that if there is an emergency they could be 
 occupied. 
 
 367. If we were in a difficidty with which the 
 United States had nothing to do, and you were to take 
 possession of all the cables, I am afraid that would be 
 regarded as an act of war. It would be a coui'se anj'- 
 how which would involve very serious consequences ? — 
 I have no doubt. Agaia, I am afraid I must remind 
 you this is rather outside my scope as a mere Post 
 Office servant, but the fact that the cables are owned 
 by Americans does not inteil'ere with the other fact 
 that they begin and they end on English territory, and 
 I should think it would be within our power to deal 
 with them accordingly. 
 
 368. Assuming the United States had nothing to 
 do with the quaiTcl which created this emergency, can 
 you imagine they would calmly acquiesce in their 
 communications with the rest of the world being 
 paralysed hidefhiitely ? — I am afraid that is outside my 
 scope. 
 
 369. I think, perhaps, you would admit that the 
 consequences might be so serious that the 2O,O00Z. 
 which the State-owned cable across the Atlantic would 
 cost would be a mei'e flea-bite as compared with what 
 might occur in another way ? — I imagine that you are 
 leaving out of mind the possibility that the cables 
 could be cut. A State-owned cable could be cut as 
 well as another cable, and it does not take an ironclad 
 to cut it. 
 
 370. That is a possibility, of course, but there 
 would be 19 chances to 1 against the State-owned 
 cable being cut, would there not ? — I do not see why. 
 
 371. At all events all I wanted to poiat out in my 
 question was this, that there are very serious poten- 
 tialities in the present circumstances, and that these 
 would be partially at least — I do not say wholly — met 
 by a State-owned cable ? — I could imagine that a cable 
 landed on American tei-ritory, supposing we were 
 involved in a quarrel with which America was not 
 concerned, would be safer than if it were landed in 
 English territory because the Power supposed to be at 
 war with us would, I should think, hesitate before 
 risking a violation of American neutrality by cutting 
 their end of the cable, although they might cut ours. 
 
 372. Quite so ; but as a matter of fact the landing is 
 in British territory, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 373. And that difficulty could only be obviated by 
 removing the terminal ? — Yes. 
 
 374. {Sir Rider Haggard.) Am I right i»i inferring 
 from an answer you gave that you view the possibilities 
 of wireless telegTaphy as being very great in the matter 
 of competition with the cable telegrajihy H — One 
 hesitates to speak positively, because we know so little 
 of wireless telegraphy as j^et, but eveiything goes to 
 show that the possibilities are very great. 
 
 375. So that it is possible, I presume, that the 
 system of wireless telegraphy might entirely supersede 
 the existing system ? — It is guessing so wildly to say 
 anything of the kind that I hesitate to auswei', but the 
 possibilities of wii-eless can hardl}' be over-stated I 
 imagine. 
 
 376. Speaking as an ignorant layman on the matter, 
 wu-eless has great advantages, has it not, in the matter 
 that it cannot be cut ? — It cannot be cut. 
 
 377. Am I rightly informed in what I have heard, 
 namely, that systems are being introduced by which the 
 messages can be kept secret ? — One of the great 
 discoveries yet to be made in wireless is the direction 
 of the wave. If, for instance, instead of the wireless 
 
 message being distributed all round the points of the 
 compass, it could be confined within a certain section, 
 we should have gone a long way. 
 
 378. Ai-e there not indications that that end is in 
 the way of being attained ? — I am not a wii-eless 
 scientific expert, and I cannot say, but I know that 
 people are experimenting in that direction. The 
 attention of everybody is turned upon it. 
 
 379. In the present state of the wu'eiess under- 
 takings, does it or does it not make it a little rash to 
 invest large sums of capital in the laying down of fresh 
 submarine cables :- — One could hardly say; I think it 
 is an additional argiunent against expierhneuting in 
 the direction of a State-owned cable. 
 
 380. (Chairman.) There is only one fiu-ther question 
 I have to ask to make the point quite clear ; you estimate 
 that the cost of an Atlantic cable would be 20,000/. a 
 year minus whatever traffic you obtained from the 
 North American continent and Canada ;•' — Yes, the loss 
 is 20,000/. 
 
 381. The loss is 20,000/. assuming you get no traffic 
 whatever from Canada ? — Yes. 
 
 382. Now would you kindly read your second 
 memorandum on the subject of mails ? — Yes. 
 
 The following are the questions submitted by the 
 Commission and the Memorandu7n in reply : — 
 
 Mails. 
 Qiiestions. 
 
 (a) In regard to mail subsidies generally, on what 
 basis is the amount of paynient determined, e.g., weight 
 of mails conveyed, speed, regularity of sej^-ice, other 
 postal facilities ? 
 
 To what extent have considerations, other than the 
 performance of postal work, such as Admiralty require- 
 ments, option (jf pui-chase, non-alienation from British 
 flag, &c., been taken into account in negotiating mail 
 contracts p 
 
 (if)) It is understood that the system of mail 
 contiacts for a term of years at a fixed annual subsidy 
 has hitherto been prefei-red to that of despatching the 
 mails periodically by the fastest ship on the berth. 
 The Commission would be glad to know whether the 
 General Post Office lias any experience of the caniage 
 of importaut mails by the fastest ship on the berth at 
 the statutory rate of Ad. per article or at any other rate. 
 
 It has been suggested to the Commission that the 
 system of utilising the fastest boat offering is likely to 
 have the result of developing healthy competition and 
 therefore in the end of improving mail communicatioue 
 more rapidly than if preferential treatment and a 
 monopoly or quasi-monopoly is established. 
 
 {c) It has further been suggested that a system 
 of conveyance of mails by the fastest ship otfering 
 would have special advantages in the case of Australia 
 and New Zealand, as several non-subsidised Hues have 
 vessels of a sea speed only slightly inferioi' to that 
 of the mail steamers. Could figui'es be given showing 
 the extent of the saving — 
 
 (a) to H.M. Govei-nment, 
 
 (6) to the Commonwealth and New Zealand 
 Governments, 
 if this course were adopted, and if the mails to and 
 from Australasia wei-e cairied wholly by sea and not, 
 as at present, partly overland !' 
 
 (d) The contract between the Postmaster- General 
 and the P. \ O. Co. dated August 7th, 1907, provides for 
 termination on January Slst, 1915, if notice is given 
 24 months beforehand by either side. Has such 
 notice been given yet, and, if not, is it in contemplation 
 in the near future to enter into negotiations for a fresh 
 contract ? 
 
 In this connection the Commission notes that the 
 House of Commons Committee on Steamship Subsidies, 
 which reported in 1902, recommended that the iiual 
 negotiations should be placed in the hands of a small 
 permanent committee consisting of i-epresentatives of 
 the Government Departments concerned and also of 
 shipping and commerce. They would be interested to 
 
 C 2
 
 L'O 
 
 DOMINhtNS ROVAL CtlilMlSSIOK 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edwabd Ceabb, C.b. [Oversea Communications -. Post and Telegraph. 
 
 know wlietlier this recommendation has been carried 
 out, and, if not, what reasons were thought to militate 
 against it ? 
 
 Memorandum from General Post Office in reply to the 
 above queHions. 
 
 In a postal conti-act the annual amoimt of payment 
 for the conveyance of mails may be (i) fixed or (ii) based 
 on a poundage rate — in which case the total payment 
 will vary according to the weight of the mails conveyed 
 — or (iii) based on a combination of (i) and (ii). 
 
 In any case the amount of payment to be made 
 under a new contract would generally be determined 
 i-oughly by the amount which would have to be paid 
 for the conveyance of the mails in the absence oi 
 a contract with the Postmaster-General. This amount 
 would be calculated in one of two ways — first, the 
 Postmaster- General has the statutory' right to despatch 
 mails to foreign countries generally at the rate of \d. 
 per article of correspondence irrespective of the distance 
 over which the mails are conveyed ; and the amount 
 payable on this basis would furnish an estimate of the 
 postal value of the eonti-act service. Secondly, under 
 the tei-ms of the Universal Postal Convention evei-y 
 country included in the Universal Postal Union has the 
 right to despatch letter mails by services maintained 
 by other countries included in the Postal Union in return 
 for payment at fixed rates varying with the distance of 
 the sea conveyam^e ; and the amount which would be 
 payable in this way under Postal Union conditions 
 would give a further estimate of the postal value of the 
 sei-vice. The estimated value of the service for the 
 conveyance of parcel mails would be added to its value 
 for the conveyance of letter mails to ascertain its total 
 value. The estimate is usually based on the assumption 
 that •tcZ., Sd., and Is. are allotted to the sea sei-vice at the 
 three steps of the parcel post scale, or on the Postal 
 Union parcel rates, unless contract rates are available. 
 
 The figui-e thus obtained, while furnishing a con- 
 venient rough comparison, cannot, however, be taken 
 as affording an adequate measiu-e of the fair price to 
 be paid for any particular sei-vice. Within fairly wide 
 limits the actual quantity of mails to be conveyed is 
 a matter of relatively small importance to a conti-actor 
 as compared with the obligation to maintain a regular 
 service at fixed intei-vals throughout the year. In 
 a service where the passenger and freight traffic 
 fluctuates consideralily at different seasons and where 
 the quantity of mails is comparatively small, it may be 
 necessai-y, in order to secure a regular mail sen'ice, 
 to pay a sum substantially in excess of the •• Postal 
 Union value." Other factors which have to be taken 
 into consideration are the speed and frequency of the 
 serrice, the period of the contract, the extent of the 
 company's responsibility for the mails, and so forth. 
 
 Special circiunstances of this nature are always 
 present in a more or less marked degree, and must 
 generally be regarded as adding to the cost of the 
 contract service. Besides pro^nding for the regular 
 perfoi-mance of the senice at the desired inteiTals a 
 contract usually contains provisions as regards — 
 
 (1) speed ; 
 
 (2) liability of company in cjtse of loss or damage 
 
 of mails ; 
 
 (3) the amount of the penalties to be exacted from 
 
 the company in the event of non-perfoiin- 
 ance or delay of the whole or part of the 
 service on any occasion ; 
 
 (4) the Postmaster-General's control over the 
 
 sailings ; 
 (.5) the expense of landing and embarkation of 
 mails ; 
 
 (6) the period of duration of the contract, and the 
 
 length of notice of termination requii-ed ; 
 
 (7) condition that no undue prefei-ence shall te 
 
 shown to foreignei-s in the company's 
 carrying business. 
 Ftirther provisions may be made as regards — 
 
 (8) sea-sorting accommodation ; 
 
 (9) the Postmaster-General's power to delay 
 
 sailings ; 
 
 (10) Admiralty requirements ; 
 
 (11) cold storage accommodation ; 
 
 (12) conveyance of Government passengers. 
 
 Due consideratitm has to be given to the require- 
 ments of the Admiralty in the negotiation of an 
 important mail contract. For example, the following 
 mail ccmtracts contain Admiraltv clauses: — 
 
 Company. 
 
 Date of 
 Contract. 
 
 Nature of Clause. 
 
 Peninsular & Orient al 1 908 
 Steam Navigation 
 Company. 
 
 Royal Mail Steam 1911 
 
 Packet Company 
 (West Indian Ser- 
 vice). 
 
 Union - Castle Mail 1912 
 
 Steamship Com- - 
 pany. I 
 
 Cunard Steamship ! 1903 
 Company. i 
 
 Option of purchase, 
 Ac. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Option of purchase, 
 ic. and special 
 conditions. 
 
 One of the essential features of a satisfactoi-y mail 
 service is regularity thi-oughout the year, so that the 
 same day and time of despatch maj- be maintained. 
 If the Postmaster-General's statutoi-y right to despatch 
 •• ship-letter " mails were relied on for the provision of 
 a mail service, there would be no guarantee of 
 regularity. Also duiing the less busy seasons .of the 
 year when the passenger traffic is small, the fastest 
 steamers would he withdrawn, with the result that 
 none but the slower steamers would te available lor 
 the despatch of mails. Again, the shipping companies 
 w(.iuld be able to choose their ov,-a itinerary, which 
 would be arranged without regard to the advantages of 
 the mail service, while considerable expense might Ije 
 incun-ed by the Post Office in the transfer of the mails 
 to or from the steamers at the times and places most 
 convenient to the Department. 
 
 Considerable trouble and consequent expense is 
 being given at the present time by the fact that the 
 mails for Canada under the new Canadian contract 
 are sent, some from Glasgow, some fi-om Livei-pool, 
 and some from Bristol, and that the sorting arrange- 
 ments throughout the United Kingdom have to be 
 altered according to the port of despatch. 
 
 During the recent labour troubles all the important 
 contract mail sennces were maintained with very 
 little iiTegularity at times when most of the sendees 
 in respect of which owners wtre under no contract 
 obligation to provide regular sailings were disorganised. 
 
 All attempt was made in 1877, in response to a 
 public demand, to maintain the outward American 
 mail service by the use of the fastest steamers avail- 
 able, as was already the pi-actice of the United States 
 Post Office in the case of the inward American mail. 
 The experiment was. however, of short duration, as it 
 gave rise to general dissatisfaction not only on the 
 part of the steamship companies which owned the 
 faster steamers and desired to retain the whole of the 
 traffic imder the former conditions, but also on the 
 part of the general pubHc, in whose opinion the service 
 had deteriorated — as, indeed, it had. 
 
 The direct mail service between the United King- 
 dom and the West Indies was maintained for about 
 two years from the 1st July 1905 on a ship-letter baais, 
 !is a satisfactory tender for the sei-vice was not forth- 
 coming. The result was most unsatisfactory ; the ships 
 left on varying days, and the day of despatch was 
 frequently altered at short notice. The Post Office 
 was ultimately compelled by public opinion to enter 
 into a contract for regular sailings. At the present 
 time a weekly service to Jamaica is maintained on a 
 ship-letter basis by Messrs. Elders and Fyffes' direct
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edwabd Cbabb, C.B. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 steamers in addition to the service via New York, 
 while the mail service with the north of Brazil (Para 
 and Maniios) ^s performed by Boqtli Line steamers 
 imder the same conditions. Genei'ally speaking, the 
 application of ship-letter rates is limited to eases 
 where the vohime of traUic is not sufficient to justify 
 a contract, as in the case of the routes for which 
 correspondence must be specially addressed. 
 
 The experience of the Post Office does not support 
 the opinion that a departm-e from the contract system 
 to the use of the fastest ships available would lead to 
 any economy or to an increase in the efficiency of the 
 mail services. Postal C(jntracts are not usually made 
 for lung periods, and at the termination of a contract 
 tenders for the service are ojjenly invited, the market 
 price of the service thus being tested periodically and 
 competition developed wherever effective competition 
 is possible. Any slight acceleration which would be 
 afforded at certain periods of the year by the employ- 
 ment in all circumstances of the fastest ship available 
 would l)e more than counterbalanced by the irregularity 
 of the service and the alfsence of advantageous con- 
 ditions which are ensured under a contract. 
 
 It has been agreed that notice to determine the 
 contract between the Postmaster-General and the 
 Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company 
 shall not be given before the 31st January 1914, the 
 earliest date of termination thus being the 31st 
 January 1916. The conditions of the maintenance of 
 the service after the latter date have not yet been 
 determined. 
 
 The suggestion made by the House of Commons 
 Committee on Steamship Services in 1902 that a per- 
 manent committee, consisting of representatives of 
 the Admiralty, Board of Trade, Colonial Office, and 
 Post Office and repre.sentatives of shipping and 
 commerce, should be set up to consider all proposals 
 involving the grant of subsidies to shipping com- 
 panies, was not adopted because it was anticipated 
 that the inclusion of representatives of the shipping 
 companies in the committee would lead to difficulty 
 when the committee was considering the negotiation 
 of a contract with a shipping company. Even if the 
 representatives of shipping and commerce were left 
 out, it was felt that a single department was better 
 able to caiTy on negotiations than a committee. 
 Departments concerned are, of course, consulted by 
 the Post Office, which is mainly concerned in the con- 
 
 tract, and it is thought that the procedui-e works well 
 and saves time. 
 
 The annexed tables show the steamship companies 
 pei-formiug the contract mail services to Australia via 
 the Suez Canal, and several other typical British steam- 
 ship companies carrying on trade with the Antipodes. 
 There are, of course, many other casual traders from 
 this country to Australian ports, but the steamers 
 engaged are mostly "tramps" of slow speed. 
 
 It will be observed that no other companv 
 approaches in the matter of sjjeed that actually 
 possessed by ships of the two mail contracting com- 
 panies. The average sea speed i-equired for the 
 performance of the mail contracts to Australia is 
 i5- l(i knots an hour. 
 
 In the case of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, 
 the mails from London are of course sent overland to 
 Brindisi and conveyed thence to Port Said by the 
 express packets, where they are transhipped to the main 
 line packet ; while in the alternate week, when the 
 service is performed by the Orient Line, the mails are 
 sent to Taranto and embarked there on the main line 
 packet. On arriving in Australia the mails for 
 Western Australia are disembarked at Fremantle. and 
 those for South Australia, Victoria, New South Wales, 
 Tasmania, New Zealand, and adjacent islands are 
 carried on to Adelaide, where they are disembarked 
 and forwarded to destination by train and steamer. 
 The contract period of ti-ansit from Brindisi and from 
 Taranto to Adelaide is 638 hours (26 days 14 hours). 
 
 The service performed by the Messageries Mari- 
 times Company imder contract with the French Post 
 Office takes 34 days from Marseilles to Adelaide with 
 calls at Port Said, Siaez, Aden, Bombay, Colombo, and 
 Fremantle. The North German Lloyd despatches a 
 packet every 28 days from Bremerhaven to Austraha 
 calling at Antwerp, Southampton. Algiers. Genoa, 
 Naples, Port Said, Suez, Aden, Colombo, and Fre- 
 mantle. The voyage from Bremerhaven to Adelaide 
 occupies 45 days, but the course of post from London 
 via Naples would be 33 days. 
 
 There are in addition services across the Pacific 
 used by this office for the transmission of mails to 
 New Zealand, viz., that performed by the " Canadian 
 and Australasian Line," from Vancouver, and a service 
 via San Francisco performed by the " Canadian and 
 Australasian " Line in conjunction -n-ith the " Unifin 
 Steamship Company " of New Zealand. 
 
 Annexure. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Length of 
 
 Shiijping Company. 
 
 Names of Packets. 
 
 Tonnage. 
 
 Speed. 
 
 Ports of Call. 
 
 Voyage from 
 London. 
 
 
 
 
 Knots. 
 
 
 Days. 
 
 Peninsular and Oriental Steam 
 
 Maloja 
 
 12,431 
 
 18* 
 
 London (Tilbury) 
 
 — 
 
 Navigation Company, under 
 
 Medina 
 
 12,350 
 
 184 
 
 Gibraltar 
 
 4 
 
 contract with Imjjerial Post 
 
 Morea - 
 
 10,890 
 
 18i 
 
 Marseilles - 
 
 7 
 
 Office for mail service to 
 
 Mantua 
 
 10,885 
 
 184 
 
 Port Said - 
 
 11 
 
 Australia. 
 
 Malwa 
 
 10,883 
 
 18* 
 
 Suez - 
 
 12 
 
 
 Macedonia - 
 
 10,512 
 
 18* 
 
 Aden - 
 
 16 
 
 
 Marmora 
 
 10,509 
 
 184 
 
 Colombo 
 
 22 
 
 
 Mooltan 
 
 9,621 
 
 18| 
 
 Fremantle - 
 
 32 
 
 
 Mongolia 
 
 9,505 
 
 184 
 
 Adelaide 
 
 36 
 
 
 Moldavia 
 
 9,500 
 
 184 
 
 Melboiu-ne - 
 Sydney 
 
 38 
 41 
 
 Peninsular and Oriental Branch 
 
 Ballarat 
 
 11,120 
 
 14 
 
 London (Albert 
 
 _ 
 
 Line to Australia via the 
 
 
 
 
 Dock). 
 
 
 Cape (late Blue Anchor Line, 
 
 Beltana 
 
 11,120 
 
 14 
 
 Canary Island 
 
 6 
 
 Limited). 
 
 Benalla 
 
 11.118 
 
 14 
 
 Table Bay - 
 
 21 
 
 
 Commonwealth - 
 
 6,616 
 
 14 
 
 Adelaide 
 
 40 
 
 
 Geelong 
 
 7,951 
 
 14 
 
 Melbourne - 
 
 45 
 
 
 Wilcannia - 
 
 4.953 
 
 13 
 
 Sydney 
 
 •■>(» 
 
 Orient Steam Navigation Com- 
 
 Orama 
 
 12,927 
 
 18 
 
 London (Tilbury) 
 
 
 pany, Limited, inider <'ontract 
 
 Orontes 
 
 9.023 
 
 18 
 
 Gibraltar - " - 
 
 4 
 
 with Commonwealth Post 
 
 Orsova 
 
 12,036 
 
 18 
 
 Toulon 
 
 6 
 
 Office for mail service to 
 
 Oi-vieto 
 
 12,130 
 
 18 
 
 Naples 
 
 8 
 
 Europe. 
 
 Osterley 
 
 12,129 
 
 18 
 
 Taranto 
 
 f) 
 
 
 Otranto 
 
 12,124 
 
 18 
 
 Port Said - 
 
 12 
 
 (; 3
 
 •>2 
 
 DOMINIONS ROY.VL COMMISSIOX 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Shipping Company 
 
 Mr. Edward Cbabb. c.b. \_Over$ea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 Length of 
 Ports of Call. Voyage from 
 
 London. 
 
 Orient Steam Navigation Com- 
 pany, Limited — cont. 
 
 Otway 
 Omrah 
 Oplxir 
 
 Aberdeen Line. Thompson, 
 Qeo., & Co., Limited. 
 
 Demosthenes 
 
 Mai-athon 
 
 Jliltiades 
 
 Themistocles 
 
 Moravian 
 
 11.223 
 7,827 
 7,814 
 
 11,231 
 4.573 
 
 15 
 15 
 15 
 15 
 14 
 
 Suez - 
 
 Colombo 
 
 Fremantle 
 
 Adelaide 
 
 Melbourne 
 
 Sydney 
 
 Brisbane 
 
 Da vs. 
 13 
 22 
 32 
 36 
 38 
 41 
 45 
 
 London 
 
 
 
 Plymouth - 
 
 1 
 
 Teneriffe 
 
 H 
 
 Cape ToTvn - 
 
 20 
 
 Melbourne - 
 
 4U 
 
 Sydney 
 
 43 
 
 Brisbane 
 
 4t> 
 
 Milbum Line and Anglo- Austra- 
 
 Port Lincoln 
 
 7.243 
 
 13 
 
 Middlesbrough - 
 
 _ 
 
 lasian Steam Navigation 
 
 Port Cui-tis - 
 
 4.710 
 
 12 
 
 Hull - 
 
 — 
 
 Company. 
 
 Port Hunter 
 
 4.062 
 
 10 
 
 London 
 
 — 
 
 
 Port Phillip 
 
 4,060 
 
 10 
 
 Suez Canal - 
 
 13 approi. 
 
 
 Port Augusta 
 
 4.063 
 
 10 
 
 Adelaide 
 
 50 „ 
 
 
 Port Caroline 
 
 4,076 
 
 10 
 
 Melbovime - 
 
 55 ,. 
 
 
 Port Chalmers 
 
 4.077 
 
 10 
 
 Sydney 
 
 60 .. 
 
 
 Port Kembla 
 
 4,700 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 Port Macquarie - 
 
 7,236 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Port Pirie - 
 
 4,068 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 Port Albany 
 
 9.000 
 
 13 
 
 • 
 
 • 
 
 Tyser Line and Colonial Line - 
 
 Hawkes Bay 
 
 10,641 
 
 13 
 
 London 
 
 
 
 
 Makarini 
 
 10.624 
 
 13 
 
 Suez Canal - 
 
 12 approx. 
 
 
 Marere 
 
 6.443 
 
 12 
 
 Auckland 
 
 48 ., 
 
 
 Mimiro 
 
 6.225 
 
 12 
 
 Wellington - 
 
 51 „ 
 
 
 Muritai 
 
 7.280 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 Nerehana 
 
 6.533 
 
 12 
 
 London 
 
 — 
 
 
 Niwaru 
 
 6,444 
 
 12 
 
 Suez Canal - 
 
 12 approx. 
 
 
 Whakarua - 
 
 6,534 
 
 12 
 
 Melbourne - 
 Sydney 
 
 45 „ 
 50 „ 
 
 Bethell, Gwyn & Co.. London 
 
 Chartered ships - 
 
 Variable 
 
 About 10 
 
 London 
 
 _ 
 
 Line. 
 
 
 5,00u 
 
 
 Suez Canal - 
 
 13* 
 
 , 
 
 
 to 
 
 
 Melbourne - 
 
 49 
 
 
 
 10,000 
 
 
 Sydney 
 
 Fremantle - 
 Albany 
 
 54 
 
 42 
 
 45 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Approximate 
 
 Shipping Company. 
 
 Names of Packets. 
 
 Tonnage. 
 
 Speed. 
 
 Ports of Call. 
 
 Length of 
 
 Voyage from 
 
 London. 
 
 
 
 
 Knots. 
 
 
 Days, 
 
 New Zealand Shipping Company, 
 
 Hurunui 
 
 8,901 
 
 14 
 
 London 
 
 — 
 
 under contract with Imperial 
 
 Remuera 
 
 11,276 
 
 14 
 
 Teneriffe 
 
 6 
 
 Government for conveyance 
 
 Rotorua 
 
 11.130 
 
 14 
 
 Cape Town - 
 
 21 
 
 of parcels to New Zealand 
 
 Ruahine 
 
 10,758 
 
 14 
 
 Hobart 
 
 41 
 
 
 Kaikoura 
 
 6,998 
 
 13 
 
 Wellington - 
 
 46 
 
 
 Kaipara 
 
 7,392 
 
 13 
 
 Lyttelton 
 
 47 
 
 
 Opawa 
 
 7,230 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Orari - 
 
 7,027 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Otaki - 
 
 7,420 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Rimutaka - 
 
 7,952 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Rosscommon 
 
 7,381 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Rnapehu 
 
 7,885 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Tongariro - 
 
 8,073 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Txirakina 
 
 8,349 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Tyrone 
 
 6,664 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Limerick 
 
 6,827 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 Paparoa - • - 
 
 7,749 
 
 12 
 
 
 > 
 
 . 
 
 Westmeath - 
 
 8,096 
 
 12 
 

 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 23 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edwaed Oeabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications ; Post and Telegraph. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Approximate 
 
 Shipping Company. 
 
 Names of Packets. 
 
 Tonnage. 
 
 Speed. 
 
 Ports of Call. 
 
 Length of 
 
 Voyage from 
 
 England. 
 
 
 
 
 Knots. 
 
 
 Days. 
 
 Shaw, SavUl, and Albion Com- 
 
 Arawa 
 
 9,372 
 
 14 
 
 London 
 
 
 pany, under contract with 
 
 Tainui 
 
 9,957 
 
 14 
 
 Plymouth 
 
 1 
 
 Imperial Government for 
 
 Kia Ora 
 
 6,558 
 
 13J 
 
 Teneriffe 
 
 6 
 
 conveyance of parcels to New 
 
 Mamari 
 
 6,689 
 
 134 
 
 Cape Town - 
 
 21 
 
 Zealand. 
 
 Pakeha 
 
 10,481 
 
 134 
 
 Hobart 
 
 414 
 
 
 Rangatira - 
 
 10,118 
 
 134 
 
 Wellington - 
 
 47 
 
 
 Waimana 
 
 10,389 
 
 134 
 
 
 
 
 Matatua 
 
 6,488 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 Karamea 
 
 5,564 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 Kumara 
 
 6,034 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 Tokomaru - 
 
 6,238 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 Waiwera 
 
 6,237 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 White Star Line : — 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -" 
 
 Runic - 
 
 12,482 
 
 13 
 
 Liverpool 
 
 — 
 
 
 Medic - 
 
 12,032 
 
 13 
 
 Cape Town - 
 
 20 
 
 Australian Passenger Service - 
 
 Afric - 
 
 Suevic 
 
 11,999 
 12,531 
 
 13 
 
 13 
 
 Albany 
 Adelaide 
 
 35 
 
 40 
 
 
 Persic 
 
 12,042 
 
 13 
 
 Melbourne - 
 
 43 
 
 v> 
 
 Cei-amic 
 
 18,600 
 
 134 
 
 Sydney 
 
 50 
 
 f 
 
 Cufic - 
 
 8,249 
 
 12 
 
 Liverpool 
 
 — 
 
 
 Tropic 
 
 8,230 
 
 12 
 
 Adelaide 
 
 46 
 
 Australian Cargo Service 
 
 Irishman 
 Georgic 
 
 11,.585 
 10,077 
 
 12 
 13 
 
 Melbourne - 
 Sydney 
 
 50 
 55 
 
 
 Bovic - 
 
 6,583 
 
 13 
 
 Brisbane 
 
 62 
 
 L 
 
 Belgic 
 
 10,151 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 New Zealand 
 
 Corinthic - 
 
 12,231 
 
 13 
 
 London 
 
 _ 
 
 Passenger Services in con- 
 junction with Shaw, Savill. 
 and Albion. 
 
 y Ionic 
 Athenic 
 
 12,232 
 12,234 
 
 13 
 13 
 
 Plymouth 
 Teneriffe 
 Cape Town - 
 Hobart 
 Wellington - 
 
 1 
 
 6 
 21 
 414 
 
 47 
 
 
 
 
 
 Lyttelton 
 
 48 
 
 Shipping Company. 
 
 Names of Packets. 
 
 Tonnage. 
 
 Speed. 
 
 Approximate 
 Ports of CaU. Length of 
 Voyage. 
 
 Ocean Steam Ship Company 
 A. Holt & Co. 
 
 jEneas 
 Anchises 
 AntUochus - 
 Ascanius 
 
 10,049 
 
 10,046 
 
 9,039 
 
 10,040 
 
 Knots. 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 
 Liverpool 
 Canaries 
 Cape Town - 
 Melbourne - 
 Sydney 
 
 Days. 
 
 6 
 19 
 42 
 
 45 
 
 383. You mention the statutory rate at which mails 
 should be conveyed : how does that rate compare with 
 the ordinary rates on valuable freight ? Is it very 
 much in excess of what is got for ordinary freight ? — 
 We have not any very definite information about the 
 rates for valuable freight : they are probably a matter 
 of bargaining between shippers aud consignors, but I 
 should think the statutory rate would be equivalent to 
 a high rate for freight. 
 
 384. What does it work out at per ton P— We 
 make it work out at 224/. per ton for letters and post 
 cards. 
 
 385. What does the Postal Union rate for sea 
 distances over 50 miles work out at ? — It works out at 
 over 300?. per ton. 
 
 386. So that these rates constitute a very valuable 
 prize if given to the fastest ship on the berth ? — Yes. 
 
 387. Therefore competition for obtaining a portion 
 of the postal ti-affic wotild be a ilistiuct stimulus to 
 outside lines to furnish fast regular sailings ? — Lines 
 outside the present mail contractors, if they are going 
 to compete and if they are to buUd ships at all 
 comparable to those run by the Peninsular and 
 Oriental and by the Orient (I mean any of the faster 
 ships), would have to build a new fleet ; otherwise the 
 
 ships which are now conveying the mails are stUI the 
 
 fastest. 
 
 388. They would have to build a new fleet if they 
 intended to compete for the postal contract ."• — 
 Yes. 
 
 389. But they would only have to build new 
 vessels if they intended to come in occasionally ? — 
 They would have to build one or two. and even that 
 would be a very expensive matter if they wei-e buUding 
 them simply to capture a somewhat small proportion 
 of the mail. 
 
 390. Under the present arrangement, that induce- 
 ment to build fast vessels does not exist ? — I presume 
 you are thinking more particularly of the Peninsular 
 and Oriental Service. If any shipping company wishes 
 to tender for the Eastern Service, supposing that the 
 Eastern Service remains under anything like existing 
 conditions, that company will have to contemplate 
 the possibility of being called upon to build a new 
 tieet between the present time and the time when the 
 contract is decided. 
 
 391. And that would involve the construction of 
 how many vessels ? — I should not like to say. The 
 P. & O. have ten vessels of 18i knots — I daresay less 
 would do — the Orient have seven vessels of 18 kuots. 
 
 U 4
 
 24 
 
 I'OMINIONS KOVAI. COMMISSION' 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edwaed Cradi). C.B. lOversea Commvnicatimi* ; Post and Telegraph. 
 
 392. And in effect is the competition for a share in 
 the subsidy limited to companies who either have or 
 ai-e prepared to build a large fleet of that kind ? — It 
 appeai-s to be limited to companies that can in am- 
 way meet the requirements of the contract. You have 
 used the inhal>itauts of India and Austi-alia to have 
 then- mails delivered at a certain speed and with a 
 certain regularity, and it would undoubtedly be felt 
 very severely if we entered into a contract which did 
 an\-tl)iug to deprive them of those facilities. 
 
 393. The point I am upon now is the limited com- 
 petition which exists when the question arises of a 
 renewal of the subsidy contract ; how much i-eal com- 
 petition exists ? — It is very restricted indeed as any 
 tender for a difficult service of a very high class must 
 be i-esti-icted. I think it would be the same in the 
 engineering world : for instance, if you wanted tenders 
 for a fresh Assouan dam there would not be very many 
 firms which would l>e capable of offering for it. 
 
 394. Then assuming that the contractors do not 
 come up to the requii-ements you think reasonable. 
 what recourse have you ? — Tou mean if they do not 
 tender ? 
 
 39.5. If they do not tender either with conditions 
 you think adequate, or for prices you think reasonable ? 
 — It becomes a sheer matter of bargaining, I am 
 afi-aid. 
 
 396. And if you do not come to terms, what mean.s 
 have you of applying pressiu-e ? — It is very difficult to 
 give a satisfactory answer ; we must do the best we can. 
 
 397. You are somewhat powerless, are you not ? — 
 We are not in a goi^d position in that case, of course : 
 if the tenders can only be taken up by vei-y few firms, 
 naturally you are not in as good a position as if you 
 had a very large competition. 
 
 398. The view has been put fonvard. (I will put it to 
 you briefly) that these postal contracts give a quasi 
 monopoly for the cari-iage of the maQs ? — The quasi 
 monopoly in such a case exists almost by itself, and the 
 Post Office has very little option but to go to the 
 monopolist. 
 
 399. Then you would agree with this : that the 
 effect of the existence of this cjuasi-monopoly is to 
 discoui-age outside competitors from building fast 
 vessels which might, were thtre uo monopoly, have a 
 shai-e of the postal cake ? — I think it is good evidence 
 if the others do not compete for the mails, that we 
 have made a reasonably good bargain. Otherwise if the 
 P. and O. were profiting so very largely under the 
 contract, it would \» worth somelx>dy's wliile to build 
 and go into competition with them. 
 
 400. But you have said the amount of capital 
 requii-ed is vei-y large ? — It is veiy large. 
 
 401. And therefore the competition is limited to a 
 veiy few groups ? — Yes. 
 
 402. Now with regard to the cost of the Overland 
 Mail, sending the mails across Europe to Brindisi. we 
 have had. of coui-se. to consiiler the merits of the 
 alternative routes by the Cape and otherwise, and I 
 should like to have your view regarding the advantages 
 of Brindisi, and also to know what the additional cost 
 of Brindisi is, and I include Tai-auto ? — The additional 
 cost is about 00,000Z. paid to France, and about 40.000/. 
 to Italy really for the mail service — a special train — but 
 the system of payment is based on the Postal Union 
 plan, a charge per kilogramme on letters and parcels 
 respectively, and it varies, 
 
 403. So that in fact having to send mails by Brindisi 
 and Taranto costs you 100,000/. per year more than 
 those same mails would do if sent by the sea route ? — I 
 could not estimate it exactly : the cost is very much 
 heavier, if I might be permitted to leave it there. On 
 the other hand you get the increased speed. 
 
 404. You get a gain of what ? — Two or three days. 
 
 405. I think you have siven us figures sho^vulg that 
 if the mails at present carried by the Suez route to and 
 from Australasia were conveyed wholly by sea at ship- 
 ping rates, the saving woidd be approximately 165.000/. 
 
 year !' — Approximately. 
 
 406. And that would be increased to 200.000/. a year 
 if ail the mails to and from Australasia were carried in 
 this manner ? — Yes. 
 
 407. Are those coiTect ?^Yes. those figures are 
 approximately correct. 1 have not much confidence 
 in them; they are difficult to get at the present 
 time. 
 
 408. Have any alternative routes for the present 
 Brindisi and Suez routes been considered by the Post 
 Office for the carnage o{ mails to and from Austral- 
 asia y — We considered other ports : we considered 
 Marseilles, and Reggio was suggested once ; we con- 
 sidered sending them through Switzerland and we 
 considered Salouica, and none of them were held to be 
 as good as Brindisi. 
 
 409. Do you see the probal>ility iu the near future 
 of any alternative route being equally good or prefer- 
 able to that ? — No ; one can hardly say what will happen 
 at Salouica, but to send the mails to Salonica would be 
 sending them across a much larger number of countries, 
 and each country would have to be paid, so that the 
 expense would be very much higher. 
 
 410. The objections to Brindisi would be inci-eased 
 in the case of Salonica. comparing both roiites to the all- 
 sea route where the mails would be caiTied in British 
 vessels ? — Yes. 
 
 411. Comparing that rout« with the possibilities of 
 the Cape route to Austi-alia. what would you say ?• — 
 The Cape route is much longer and you have not ships 
 of the requisite speed i-unning on the Cape route. 
 
 412. Have you considered at all the possibility of 
 creating a Cape-Austi'alasia route as an alternative to 
 the present Suez route ? — A small amount of parcel 
 load is sent by the Cape at present, but talking of 
 the letter mails, we think it would be impossible. 
 
 413. Why do you think it would be impossible ^ — 
 Because it is so much longer and because you have not 
 the vessels. 
 
 414. Are you quite correct iu saying it is much 
 longer ? — It is some hundreds of miles longer. 
 
 415. Assuming the possiliility of covering the 
 distance in approximately the sam>^ time, do you con- 
 sider an all-ocean route of that chai-a^ter has large 
 advantages over the trans-Europe or trons-Mediter- 
 i-anean route or not ? — I doubt whether it has ; by 
 hanng a trans-European or trans- Asiatic route you 
 get the advantage of a service which can be used for 
 the Indian mails as well as for the other. 
 
 416. In the other case you get, of course, the advan- 
 tage of the African mails? — Yes. 
 
 417. In the one case you have India and iu the 
 other case you have Africa ? — Yes. 
 
 418. One of the clauses in one of your eonti-acts 
 which you mention. Article 7 on page 6, of the 
 P. and 0. contract, has the condition that no undue 
 preference shall be shown to foreigners in the com- 
 pany's carrying business .'--Yes. 
 
 419. How do you enforce or hnw can you enforce 
 that ? — K we had a complaint and the complaint was 
 substantiated, and the company refused to alter their 
 procedure, they would fall under that clause which 
 enablr-s the Postmaster-General in case of any notable 
 breach of the contract to determine the contract at 
 once. 
 
 420. Di> you place any condition on the mail com- 
 panies which can-y your mails aliout joining or not 
 joining shipping conferences .'*■ — No. 
 
 421. That nas never been included iu any of the 
 contracts ? — Not that I am aware of. 
 
 422. {Mr. CampbeU.) Taking the whole of the 
 Australian business into account, would yuu say that the 
 business pays the department ? — -I do not think we made 
 a bad bargain. 
 
 423. What I mean is ; taking the fact into considera- 
 tion that you pay a subsidy to the P. and O. Company, 
 is your business with Australia remunerative ? Is 
 there or is there not a loss on the Australian business 
 to the postal department ? — It may be taken that the 
 Australian ser\-ice is not remunerative. In the case of 
 most of the foreign letter services the question is 
 simply how much of the loss will you bear, and when 
 you come to the Colonies which are served by the 
 penny post it is all loss. 
 
 424. The postal department is not governed by the 
 same policy iu respect of postal services as it is in
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 2? 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Ouersea Communications -. Post and Telegraph. 
 
 respect of telegraphic services, that is to say it is pre- 
 pared to give a subsidy for cheaper and quicker service 
 in respect of the mails, whereas the attitude in regard 
 to telegraphic service is different ? — Speed is a con- 
 dition, and a valuable condition, but what we pay for in 
 giving subsidies to the mail companies is regularity. 
 
 425. Do you get that regularity H — Certainly. 
 
 42ti. Is there any regularity in the delivery of 
 Australian mails in England ? Are the mails delivered 
 on the same day in each week ? — Yes, they come in 
 pi-actically to time ; you can calculate upon them 
 almost as you can on a train. 
 
 427. What is the reason that in some weeks the 
 Australian mail is delivered on Saturday, sometimes 
 on Friday, and sometimes on a Monday ? — If it is the 
 P. and O. mail it is pr()bably because sometimes the 
 P. and O. boats are in advance of their contract time. 
 
 428. Is that frequent — that boats are in advance of 
 the contract time ? — It is fairly frequent, I think. 
 
 429. As a matter of fact the departure of mails 
 from Australia by the different liues is not synchronous, 
 is it ; the boats do not start on the same day from 
 Australia, but the P. and 0. start on one day of the 
 week, and the Orient on another? — What I mean 
 is that you tie down these boats to i-un the distance 
 within a certain specified time, and they do it. If 
 you had no contract the companies could alter theii' 
 itinerary ; they could take off their fastest boats, and 
 they would do it. For instance, take another service, 
 across the Atlantic. For part of the year you would 
 never have the fastest boats rumiing at all. It is the 
 same with the Royal Mail. When you came to put 
 your mails on board you might be tohl. " We intended 
 " to start to-day, but we have not got our cargo in yet, ' 
 " and we shall not be able to start till to-morrow 
 " morning." I doubt if the business world would 
 tolerate it. 
 
 430. Speaking about I'outes, regularity and speed, I 
 suppose, would be the main things, as you have put 
 the case here, in the way of argument for any particular 
 route ? — Regularity and speed, and certain other 
 considerations of which I read you out a catalogue. 
 
 431. Taking those desiderata into consideration, has 
 the Post Office ever looked into the possibilities of a 
 mail route across Siberia and getting to Australia that 
 way for the Australian mails ? — No, the Siberian route 
 does very well for stuff going as far south as Shanghai, 
 but I do not know that we ever considered it for 
 anything farther. 
 
 432. But the Post Office use the Trans-Siberian 
 route for Chinese and Japanese mails ? — Yes, the 
 development of that route, of course, may be great in 
 fature. 
 
 433. Does the service prove costly on that route ? — 
 It is a new service to some extent, and their lines 
 are not what they will be in the future ; in some places 
 they liave still got single lines cind their rolling stock 
 will also be improved in the future. 
 
 434. There is rapid duplication going on upon that 
 line is there not ? — So I understand. 
 
 435. What is the time of delivery of mails from 
 London to, say, Japan — Yokohama ? — Yokohama l)y 
 Siberia, 18 days ; niri Vancouver, 26 days ; and via 
 Suez, 36 days. 
 
 436. Eighteen days to Yokohama from London ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 137. How does the American Post Office carry the 
 bulk of its mails ? — So much per voyage in some cases. 
 I think. 
 
 438. The system of subsidising lines is hardly 
 known there, is it ? — No, they are not quit« in the same 
 position as we are. The eastward-going American 
 mail is concentred at New York ; the westward mails 
 of this country go from Glasgow, from Liverpool, 
 and from Southampton, and it is easier foi- America, 
 supposing she wished to do it, to take the fastest 
 ship on the berth than it would be for us, as they 
 have them all at one place. We broke down badly 
 when we tried to work the service on a statutory 
 payment in the seventies and eighties. 
 
 439. The American inward service is done entirely 
 c: 20s;!0 
 
 on the payment system, is it not ? — Except in the case 
 of the Ciinard. 
 
 440. Is there any great complaint over the American 
 inward service about irregularity ? — No, not that I know 
 
 441. Then they manage to give a satisfactory service 
 on the payment system ? — Yes. 
 
 442. The West Indian mail is carried by Elders 
 and Fyifes' boats is it not ?— Part of it. 
 
 443. Elders and Fyffes" boatsare really an American- 
 controlled institution, are they not? — I do not know 
 how they are controlled. 
 
 444. {Sir Bider Haggard.) Has the alternative of 
 ocean transit throughout ever really been seriously 
 considered ?• — I cannot say it has for carrying letters. 
 
 445. Speaking generally it would seem to present 
 some advantages, would it not ; for instance, is it not an 
 advantage that the mails of this country should pass 
 over the high seas and not over foreign countries ? — I 
 cannot see very much advantage. 
 
 446. Is not a state of affairs conceivable when it 
 would not be alt^igether desirable to send your mails 
 through foreign countries ? — Government tiuffic is not 
 carried by ordinary mails. 
 
 447. Letters have a bodily presence on foreign 
 teiTitory, have they not ? — Yes. 
 
 448. Is it not conceivable that that might not be 
 desirable ? — I can imagine it under certain circum- 
 stances. 
 
 449. Is it not extrepely expensive? — It is expensive. 
 
 450. Would not the same amount of money which 
 is involved in sending those letters across sevei-al 
 foreign countries tt) a foreign port provide a service 
 viii the Cape, in much the same time — that is by 
 quickening up the boat a little ? — I should doubt it. 
 
 451. As a matter of fact would not the increase of 
 a knot an hour or so equalise the whole thing ? — No, I 
 do not think it would ; at present your boats running to 
 the Cape 
 
 452. I am not talking of the existing boats, but I 
 am supposing that a fleet of boats of a different character 
 is built ? — You would have to run at an avei-age speed 
 of over 16 knots an liom% and at present the boats going 
 round the Cape are doing an average speed of 13. 
 
 453. I know, but supposing thei-e were ships of the 
 same average speed as on the other route ? — -I think it 
 wovild form a subject for consideration then. 
 
 454. I want to put what I have in my own mind to 
 you as an expert : Again, would not the fact that there 
 would be only one stoppage at the Cape have an impor- 
 tant bearing in the relative advantages of these routes ? 
 — You would have an uninteiTupted course for the 
 remainder of the time. 
 
 455. One call at the Cape, is it not ? — Yes, and 
 perhaps one at Natal. 
 
 456. Not necessarily ? — Not necessarilj', leaving out 
 the coaling. - ■ -i 
 
 457. Because the mails could be taken by the rail- 
 ways t:> Natal?— Yes. 
 
 458. Is not that an enoi-mous advantage whea it is 
 borne in mind that the Cape is a British possession ? — 
 You are not providing for so much mail matter by 
 that route. 
 
 459. You would have all the African mail matter, 
 would you not ? — You would have the African mail 
 matter, but you would not have the Indian and you 
 would not have the foreign stuff which boats command 
 on the P. and O. route the other way. 
 
 460. There would be in the beginning at any rate 
 some diminution in the amount of mails carried ? — That 
 is what I meant. 
 
 461. I miderstand that, but what I want to put to 
 you is this : looking at the great advantage of having a 
 route dominated entirely by the Imperial power calling 
 at an Imperial port, and going straight across the sea 
 to the Imperial possessions beyond the seas, I want to 
 put it to you whether those advantages do not coimter- 
 halance the advantage of, perhaps, a little extra quick- 
 ness rid foreign countries and via the narrow Suez 
 Canal ? — No doubt there is force in what you say. 
 
 462. I do not think I need can-y that anv further, 
 and I have only one further question. I think you 
 mentioned that the letters cost 300Z. a ton ?— Yes. 
 
 D
 
 26 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 12 November 1913.J 
 
 Mr. Edwakd Cbabb, c.b. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 463. Does that mean that for each individual ton the 
 country pays 300?. ? — Yes. 
 
 46-i. That is an enonnous amount, is it uot, compared 
 to what is paid for any other articles ? — For freight, 
 yes, but you do not treat yom- letters as you treat 
 ordinary freight. The comparison is not a fair one. 
 Tou are not content to have your mail treated as if it 
 were freight, valuable or othei-«'ise. 
 
 465. That is very dear, is it not ? — It is dear. 
 
 466. With reference to what the Chairman put to 
 you, you talk of getting tenders for mails, l)ut practically 
 you are in the hands of a monopoly, are you uot ? — We 
 are dealing with a very restricted competition. 
 
 467. I will call it a restricted competition. — But I 
 do not know that the resources of civili»ation are 
 exhausted if that competition fails us. 
 
 468. Say there are three line.s which could tender, 
 does that prevent the three lines making a little agree- 
 ment among themselves and saying, •' We will none of 
 " us quote a lower price than the other " ? — Then we 
 should be in difficulties, Imt I think we should find a 
 way out. 
 
 469. Is it a case of faith or hope ? — It is anticipa- 
 tion based on experience. 
 
 470. {Mr. Bnwring.) Just one or two questions. 
 Would it not seem to you that if the Canal dues could 
 be saved and that money put into coals, that is extra 
 speed, something might be gained by going round the 
 Cape ? — The Canal dues do not affect us directly for 
 the purposes of this discussion. The P. and O. 
 Company offer their services for so much, and no doubt 
 they take the Canal dues into consideration just as 
 they take all the other circumstances. 
 
 471. That is a big consideration, is it not, on that 
 route — or one of the big considerations ? — Tes. 
 
 472. Possibly several thousands of pounds a trip .' 
 —Yes. 
 
 473. In going roimd by the Cape, of course these 
 dues would be saved? — You would save dues. You 
 would have to increase the speed of your ship. 
 
 474. Would not that saving of the Canal dues go a 
 long way towards increasing the speed of the ships ? — 
 I hesitate to prophesy. At the higher rates of speed 
 an increase of a knot raises the cost of working your 
 ship quite out of proportion to the effect of an increase 
 of a knot at the lower rates of speed. 
 
 47.5. True, but it would be helpful any way?— It 
 would be helpful. 
 
 476. By the present method through Suez, do you 
 derive qvdte a revenue from the foreign countries — from 
 Fi-anco and Italy ? — Yes. 
 
 477. Do they send many of their letters by the 
 British subsidised boats P — Yes. 
 
 478. How do they pay ? — They pay the Postal 
 Union rates. 
 
 479. And it works out at about 224Z. a ton? — I had 
 some figures, but I have not brought them with me. I 
 can say, however, that the foreign countries' contribution 
 is going up. 
 
 480. Does the amount of the postage in or about 
 cover the cost of transit by steamer, that is to say, does 
 a penny cover the cost of transporting the letter ? — To 
 Australia? By no means or anything like. The 
 answer to a statement which begins by saying, "A 
 •• letter can be sent to Sydney for a penny ; why, 
 " therefore, should not you do something else com- 
 " parable with inland postage,'" is that a letter cannot 
 be sent to Sydney for a penny ; we charge a penny 
 eand pay out more. 
 
 481. About how much more ? — The loss on the 
 penny postage is running up to over 200,000/. a year, 
 and if you add the penny jiostage to the United States 
 of An^erica, a good deal more. 
 
 482. Have you ever worked out how much that 
 comes to for each letter? — I have not got the figure. 
 
 483. You coidd not tell me. if a penny does not 
 pay, what would pay ? — I will give you a memorandum 
 \ipon it if you like.* 
 
 * The witness subsequently supplied the following informa- 
 tion:— "We es imate th.it thi-, cost of sending; a letter to 
 " Au'itralia and that of dwilins; with the reply in this country 
 " amounts to over i-/. per ounce 7-;xte. The lowest practical 
 '• ainmut m British currency which would be ivniuuerative 
 " is. t eref ire. 2,S'/." 
 
 484. Thank you ; it would be interesting to know 
 if the penny does not pay, what wotild be the right 
 amount ? — Are you thinking of any particular place, 
 Australia for instance ? 
 
 485. I was thinking of Australia at the moment. — 
 Very good. 
 
 486. It has been contended that on account of the 
 Suez Canal di-aught, its width and one thing and 
 another you cannot send larger boats that way, and lo 
 get speed you must have size. That argument does 
 uot seem to be borne otit altogether by the Atlantic 
 experience, does it ? — I do not quite catch the point. 
 
 487. I think it has been contended that one reason 
 why 3'ou have not got a greater speed on the Australian 
 and New Zealand route is because the Suez Canal 
 cannot put tlrrough larger boats than are at present 
 engaged in it, say, 12,000 tons ? — Yes. 
 
 488. And because you cannot make your boats 
 larger you cannot increase the speed ? — Yes. 
 
 489. That does not seem to be borne out by the 
 Atlantic experience ? — The Atlantic boats are very 
 much larger than 12.000 tons. 
 
 490. That is true, but in 1890 you appear to have 
 had Atlantic boats of 8,000 tons running regularly at 
 20 knots ? — I cannot comment tipon it, because I do 
 not remember ; I take it from you, but I have no doubt 
 that the speed of the vessels on the P. and O. line 
 could be iucreased, but I do not know. 
 
 491. It seems <'irrious that on the Atlantic so far 
 back as 1889 anyway the mails were earned across the 
 Atlantic at 20 knots, and to-day they are only carried 
 to Australia at 15 knots ? — -The Atlantic service with 
 the racing boats is a passenger service with veiy little 
 cargo. The P. and O. is a cargo service as well as 
 a passenger service. The Olympic," at present the 
 biggest of the Transatlantic boats, carries, perhaps, 
 about 500 tons of cargo that is not passengers' luggage. 
 
 492. That is perfectly true, but in speeding up the 
 boats to the East the chances are that the passenger 
 trade would be worked up in the same way as the 
 Atlantic trade has been worked up, and that there would 
 not be the necessity possibly when that was done to 
 carry anything more than passengers and mails and 
 very valuable cargo. It seems reasonable that the 
 same influence wotdd have the same end. — May I ask 
 what it is you suggest in that connection in regai-d to 
 the mail contract? 
 
 493. What is running in my mind is this, that it 
 seems to me to be more or less outrageous that mails 
 and passengers should be carried to Australia in these 
 modern days at 15 knots when they can go at 20 knots 
 across the Atlantic? — Is there not something in this — 
 in America there is an Anglo-Saxon population of 
 100.000,000 within comparatively easy reach of these 
 islands, and you have an enormotis passenger traffic, and 
 people who can and will pay any amount of money, and 
 pay for speed. In Atistraiia there is a a similar popula- 
 tion, not of 100,000,000, but of 7 or 8 millions, and there 
 is uot the same pressure on the companies to supply fast 
 boats. 
 
 494. {Sir Bider Haggard.) It is 54 millions excluding 
 New Zealand. I think ?— I thought it was 7.000,000. 
 
 495. {Mr. Bowriiig.) It is 5i millions. — That makes 
 a greater dift'erence. 
 
 496. But there is such a difference in the speed ; 
 Canada can get a boat nmning at 18 or 19 knots and 
 Australia gets them nmning hardly 15, — Btit the 
 distance is enormously longer. 
 
 497. And they only get to 15 knots at the enormous 
 outlay of 360,000/. a year. — If you are talking of 
 19-knot Canadian boats you mtist talk of IS.j-knot 
 P. and O. boats ; you are talking in the one case of the 
 maximum speed and in the other the average effective 
 speed in running. No captain would run his boat 
 at its maximum speed the whole way from here to 
 Australia, or he would have to dry dock her when he 
 gf>t her to Australia. 
 
 498. I do not think that follows. — In any case the 
 Post Office cotild not make their bargain with him. 
 If 18^ knots were the maximum speed of the boat, we 
 could uot make a bargain with him that he was to take 
 the mails at 18.j knots, because he would have no 
 margin.
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 57 
 
 — , — ,-„».»-. 
 
 12 NoDember 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Oversea Communicatimis i Post and Telegraph. 
 
 499. Again, out to Australia there are unsubsidised 
 boats at about 13 to 14 knots ? — 13 knots the best of 
 them. 
 
 •500. For the extra two knots they pay this vei-y 
 large sum of 360,0O0Z. a year.. — You have not got your 
 13-knot boats all in one company, and the additional 
 two knots is a considerable addition — two knots on 13. 
 
 501. I wonder what would happen — have you any 
 idea — if you eoiild add the saving of the Canal dues to 
 that 360,000?. a year and offer it to some company in 
 the way of a subsidy ? — I do not think the Post Office 
 would stand back if it got any reasonable offer from 
 anybody to put on a service cheaper and better than is 
 done now. We should not pass the thing without con- 
 sideration. 
 
 502. It has never been brought to the notice of the 
 Post Office officials, I suppose ? — No, we have not had 
 an offer to run round the Cape. 
 
 503. In fact the Cape has never been considered? — 
 Not for letters. 
 
 504. {Mr. Gariiett.) I think your contract with the 
 Post Office contractors — the P. and O. Company — 
 provides that within certain limits that company is 
 responsible for losses .■' — Yes. 
 
 505. In jiractice are there many claims ? — No ; I 
 have some figures here. From 1906 to 1910, losses due 
 to shipwi-eck, nil ; losses due to other causes, nil ; 1911, 
 losses due to shipwreck, nil ; losses due to other causes, 
 SI.; 1912, losses due to shipwreck, « z7 ; losses due to 
 other causes, 11. ; 1913, losses due to shipwreck, 2,975L ; 
 losses due to other causes, 11. The 2,975?. was wholly in 
 respect of the mails lost in the " Oceana." 
 
 506. Are there any claims against the company at 
 all for damage through transhipment of mails ? — The 
 losses due to other causes are mainly due to damage in 
 transhipment. 
 
 507. What you have read out includes all payments ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 508. So that the amount of the subsidy is not 
 materially increased by any compensation the company 
 has to pay on these heads ? — It would not foim an im- 
 portant item. 
 
 509. Have you any figures showing any comparison 
 between the P. and O. and the Union-Castle Company ? 
 Does their contract involve the same liabilities y— The 
 present South African one does, but it has only been on 
 since 1912, so that we cannot form any comparison yet. 
 The previous contract did not contain such a clause. 
 
 510. Supposing the insurance clause did not exist, 
 what would be the liability of the shipping companies ? 
 —There is rather a difficult point of law there on which 
 the courts have not authoritatively decided. The Post- 
 master-General is advised that where the mails were 
 cairied under special contract under statute the shipping 
 company would not be strictly liable as common can-iers, 
 but they would be held responsible for loss or damage 
 caused by their negligence and that of their servants 
 subject to the statutory limitation of liability under the 
 Merchant Shipping Act of 1894 (that is a consolidating 
 Act, I think) to HI. per ton for each ton of the ship's 
 registered tonnage in respect of loss or damage to 
 goods. The amoiuit which would l)e recovered in that 
 way would be insigniticaut compared to what we do 
 recover now. 
 
 511. That would be your remedy ? — That is the 
 remedy so far as we know it, but there is no very 
 definite decision made by the courts u^^on that point 
 yet. 
 
 512. (Mr. Tatlow.) The contract with the P. and 0. 
 will terminate in 1916 ? — Yes. 
 
 513. And I presume that if the maUs continued to 
 be can-ied by that route, under the new contract an 
 accession of speed is contemplated ? — 1 can hardly say 
 on what lines we shall negotiate yet ; we have scarcely 
 sketched it ovit. Of coui-se an acceleration of speed would 
 be desirable if we could get it on reasonable terms. 
 
 514. What acceleration would be possible with their 
 present fleet of steamers the maximum of which is put 
 down at 18 knots ? — I cannot say that. 
 
 515. Whatever it was the increased speed would mean 
 increased subsidy, would it not? — Normally, increased 
 speed is a thing which you pay for, but many 
 conditions come in in negotiating a contract. If there 
 
 are other advantages to be given we might get the 
 increased speed for nothing. 
 
 516. Are mail contracts such as these advertised ?— 
 Yes, they are put up for tender. 
 
 517. Has the " All-Bed " i-oute viii Canada and 
 Vancouver been seriously considered in place of the 
 Sue? route for Australia ? — We use it now in a way, 
 but that would be an alternative route ; that would not 
 be a substitute for it, I think. 
 
 518. But as a mail i-oute ? Was not it proi)osed 
 some years ago to the Post Office that there should be 
 quick steamers placed on the Pacific and the Atlantic, 
 and was there not a definite proposal that the route 
 should be through Ii-eland ? — As an ordinary matter of 
 Post Office dealing we should send the mails by the 
 most advantageous way. 
 
 519. Is not that route capable of being made the 
 quickest route seeing the large amount of land transit 
 as against sea ? — That is in its favour. 
 
 520. Largely in its favour for mails ? — Largely in 
 favom-. You might have a much larger proportion of 
 land transit for the Eastern route at some time, not 
 in the near future perhaps, when the Bagdad railway 
 is working. 
 
 521. {Mr. Lorimer.) With respect to Australiaji 
 mails, why is it that you allow a margin of from 3 to 85 
 knots per hour between the contract sea-speed and the 
 full speed of the ship ? You give us, with regard to the 
 whole of the P. and O. Company's steamers, their speed 
 at 18^ knots and their contract sea-speed is 15 • 16 ? — 
 They cannot use the maximum speed over the whole 
 of the route ; it would not be possible. They i-un at 
 more than 15 ■ 16 knots in certain portions of the route, 
 between here and Colombo the average speed is about 
 16'1 ; then, besides, there must be a margin to meet 
 unfavotu-able weather — all kinds of sea contingencies. 
 
 622. You do allow for that; you give them an 
 extra day in the monsoon weather ? — We give them 
 an extra day for very special conditions, the regular 
 monsoon, but there are other conditions which he 
 cannot so easily foresee. He knows he is to meet 
 the monsoon. 
 
 523. You see we have all had recent experience 
 of Australian madships and we never under any circum- 
 stances approached 184 knots even if the ships had to 
 make up time for the prolonged and tiresome delay at 
 Colombo and Aden. I do not think under any circum- 
 stances did any of these boats ever exceed 18 knots ? — 
 That is very probable. 
 
 524. Now I can quite understand that it would 
 involve a very much heavier load of coal to be can-ied, 
 say, between Colombo and Fremantle, than they take 
 just now if they were to exceed 15 knots ; but still, the 
 possibility of making up some of the time that is lost 
 in waiting at Colombo and Aden appears to be disre- 
 garded ? — When the P. and O. tendered for the contract 
 they would take iuto consideration what sea speed would 
 be necessary and what margin of speed would be 
 necessary to enable them to do the journey within the 
 specified time. 
 
 525. But when you have got ships which profess to 
 run 18 TV knots it seems odd that you should give them 
 no less time than you give to slower ones .' — I do not 
 know that they profess to run ISj knots the whole 
 way ; they profess that that is their maximum speed, 
 and the conti-act binds them £0 do the distance within 
 a certain time and they do it. The figui'es of their 
 speed do not matter very much. 
 
 526. We had more than once to slow down in order 
 not to be iu too soon ? — -Yes, the P. and O. boats run 
 better than their contract very frequently. 
 
 527. But they slowed down, ;uid in coming home 
 we went iuto Malta and that made no difference. Is it 
 not possible (I suppose you have discussed it with the 
 P. and O. Comijany) to obviate that dreadful delay at 
 Colombo ? — We might think of that when the new 
 contract is entered into. 
 
 528. I have only one other question : has the Post 
 Office arranged for the carriage of over-sea mails in any 
 part of the world by steamships burning oil ? — No, not 
 as a special condition. 
 
 529. Do you not think you ha,ve them carried by 
 
 D 2
 
 28 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. EnwABD Ceabb, c.b. [Oversea Communicationt : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 oil vessels anywhere ? — Not by any that I can think of 
 novr. 
 
 .530. Ton woxild probably get better speed in that 
 way over a long distance ? — I do not know that we 
 should concern ourselves about the means liy ■which the 
 ship was driven as long as we had the speed we were 
 asking for. 
 
 531. But if you saw your way to reduce tliat time 
 by three or fom- days, wi)uld you not avail yourselves 
 of the opportimity ?— Certainly, we -wiint the speed to 
 be as great as possible. 
 
 532. I point out that there does seem to ordinaiy 
 passengers like ourselves some means of reducing time 
 by a better arrangement of the connections at Colombo, 
 and also you might consider whether you cannot get 
 better speed by running (.)il-biu'ning ships. — I see. 
 
 533. (Sir Alfred Bafeuuni.) 1 want to a?k you a 
 question about clause 33 of the P. and 0. contract 
 under which the company are bound not to give any 
 undue preference in their general caiTviilg business to 
 the disadvantage of British shipowners ; how do yo\i 
 enforce that ? — We have no way of enforcing it except 
 that if a complaint was made and justified to us and 
 we went to the P. and O. Company and asked them to 
 alter their procedure and they refused, we could treat 
 that as a breach of the contract justifying the 
 Postmaster-General in determming the contract at 
 once. 
 
 534. But you do not take any steps yourselves to 
 see that that is carried out ? — No. 
 
 535. Supposing there is a lower rate of freight, say. 
 for German goods which come to London and are 
 traushii)ped there — cases we heard of in New Zealand ? 
 — We do not uispect with a view to seeing whether 
 that does happen or not ; we ti-ust to complaints being 
 made. 
 
 536. Have you had complaints made ? — No. 
 
 537. Do you tliink the commercial public would be 
 awai-e that the complaints could be made to you ? — The 
 commercial public I presume are aware that there is a 
 P. and O. contract and that tliat contains a good many 
 other things than Post Office clauses; it contains a 
 Board of Trade clause and it contains an Admiralty 
 clause. 
 
 53S. Do you happen to know whether there is a 
 similar clause in the contract of the New Zealand 
 Shipping Company and Shaw, Savill, and Albion Com- 
 pany ? — No, the stuff is carried by those lines under 
 an an-angement come to by means of letters, and 
 there is no contract. 
 
 539. It would not be possible to put in such a 
 clause? — Yes, if the traffic became sufficiently im- 
 portant to make a contract with them I suppose the 
 clause wovdd be introduced. 
 
 540. I suppose the complaint would come before 
 you through the Board of Trade 'f — Veiy hkely ; if the 
 complaint were made to the Board of Trade and the 
 Board of Trade considered the complaint justified they 
 might remind us that the matter fell under such and 
 such a clause in the P. and O. contract. 
 
 5-41. I notice yoit speak of negotiation; you say 
 you consult the Admiralty, the Board of Trade, and 
 so on ? — -Yes. 
 
 542. Do you consult them frequently ? — Yes. 
 
 543. At different stages of the negotiations ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 544. They are treated almost as pai-tners whom 
 you have to satisfy more or less ? — Yes. I imagine 
 we are the principal partners, if there is a question 
 of who has the most interest in the contract, but we 
 consult them at every stage, and if either depart- 
 ment wants anythmg, we do it. 
 
 545. So that, although they are not parties to the 
 contract, they know what is going on at every stage ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 546. For that reason, you do not see any advan- 
 tage in having the committee that has been proposed ? 
 — I think it would be disadvantageous ; if you have a 
 committee of that sort where there is one very pre- 
 dominant interest, and othei-wise only slight interests, 
 you are wasting a number of people's time by calling 
 
 them all together constantly to consider things in 
 which they are not directly concerned, always provided 
 that the department managing the affair takes 
 particular cai-e to see that the interests of the other 
 partners are not neglected, and I think we can claim 
 that. 
 
 547. I think you said that the preference clause 
 was put in in accordance with the suggestions of the 
 Board of Trade ?— Yes. 
 
 548. But they do not see that it is enforced; they 
 wait for complaint ? — I do not know what action they 
 take, but I presume they wait for complaint. We take 
 no action. 
 
 549. In the new contract will there be some differ- 
 ence owing to the new Shipping Act in Australia — 
 the new legislation which has to do, you know, with 
 wages and also with colour in the question of '-seamen ? 
 — I cannot tell ; we shall put out our tenders for a 
 certain service to be performed and the shipping 
 comjianies will tender, if they see fit, certain terms on 
 whicli they will pcrt'orm that service. If new ./Australian 
 legislation is making things more difficult for them I 
 think it will appear in the demands for money. 
 
 550. You are afraid you would have to foot the 
 bill ? — That or something like it. 
 
 551. It has not come to your knowledge yet, the 
 effect of this legislation ? — No, because we are not yet 
 really in negotiation for the conti-act. 
 
 552. It has been assented to [ understand ? — So I 
 learned this morning. 
 
 553. In some ways it will add to the cost of work- 
 ing that service will it not ? — Yes, it is likely to add to 
 the cost of working the service and likely to lead to a 
 loss of profit to the company. 
 
 554. If there is an increase in what they will carry 
 your mails for it would be an additional reason for 
 your taking into consideration this Cape route, would 
 it not ? — I imagine that the Cape lines will also fall 
 under the same law, will they not '•' 
 
 555. You might have companies which did not xise 
 t'oloured labour ? — Yes. 
 
 556. It is the P. and O. Company which specially 
 falls under this legislation ? — Yes, under the coloui-ed 
 laljour clause. The Orient agreed not to use coloured 
 labour and the price of the contract went up. 
 
 557. There is also the wage question which would 
 come in ? — Yes, two or. three things come in — the 
 coloured labom-, the wages question, and the coasting 
 law. They all tend to send up the price of the contract. 
 Any additional difficulty put before the shipping com- 
 pany will have to be paid for in some form or another 
 by the Government. 
 
 55S. (Sir Eider Hatigard.) With reference to the 
 foi-mer questions I put, is it not a fact that the "VATiite 
 Star Line at the present moment does the passage 
 between Cape Town and Australia at a greater speed 
 than the mail steamers do between Colombo and 
 Australia ? — I have the figures and I think they are 
 right. The speed of the White Star Line I have down 
 hero as 13.V knots for their fastest boat. 40 days to 
 Adelaide from Liverpool. 
 
 559. Thou it is not the fact that it does the passage 
 at a quicker rate between the Cape and Australia than 
 is done by the mail steamers between Colombo and 
 Australia ^ — No, on my interpretation of these figures 
 the 131 knots put down here is their maximum speed, 
 and would probably not be represented in actual 
 running by more than 12 L-nots, but it is easily 
 calculated by putting the distance against the time 
 taken. There is one example — the Aberdeen Line ships' 
 speed is put down at 15 knots. The voyage from London 
 to Cape Town is performed by then- ships in 19A days. 
 The distance according to their own showing is 6.181 
 miles, and their actual sea speed is about 13 knots. 
 
 560. Tlien y<nn- answer to my previous question is 
 that what I have been informed was the case is not si) ? 
 — I think not. 
 
 561. The question has been raised about the coal, 
 the difficulty of coaling for the long sea stretch 
 between the Cape and Australia; would not that be 
 got over by a very little increase of di-aught in the
 
 MINDTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 29 
 
 12 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. Edward Cbabb, c.b. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 steamers ?— That is rather a question for a nautical 
 expert than myself. 
 
 562. It is a question you cannot answer ? — -I cannot 
 answer that satisfactorily. 
 
 5'63. There is one more question I wjiild like to put 
 in this way : in view of the extreme importance of all 
 this matter of mail communications, could not any i>f 
 the difficulties which have been suggested as against 
 the Cape route be overcome if the .steamers used are 
 State-owned ? — That raises a very large question 
 indeed. There seems to be no more reason for 
 starting State-owned mail boats round the Cape than 
 
 on the very important service between England and 
 North America. 
 
 Sfii. But, as a matter of fact, those difficulties as 
 regards the Cape route ai'e in no way insupei-able. are 
 they, as regards the extra 1,000 miles, or whatever it 
 may be, to be done in the same time ? — ^That is not the 
 x'ight term, I think; it is not a question of the 
 difficulties being insuperable, it is a question of the 
 advantages on this side or that — a question of sheer 
 expediency. 
 
 56.5. I admit that, but thei-eare points of expediency 
 in favour of the Cape route ? — Possibly. 
 
 The Right Honourable Sir Henry Primrose, K.C.B., C.S.I., 
 
 called and examined. 
 
 Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board, 
 
 566. (Chairman.) You have bean good enough to 
 send us a note of evidence which you are prepared to 
 give, and perhaps the most convenient form would be 
 for me to ask you formal questions to enable you to 
 develop your views on the subject. I understand you 
 are the Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board ? — Yes, 
 1 am. 
 
 567. And you have been chairman since 1907 ? — 
 Yes, August 1907 I think was the date on which 1 
 began. 
 
 568. I understand you desire to combat the con- 
 tention that reduction of rates of existing tariffs can be 
 
 made without loss of revenue ? — -Yes. You were kind 
 enough to let me see some evidence which was given in 
 Austi'alia and New Zealand, I think, and elsewhere. I 
 noticed that a good many people are under the 
 impression that a reduction on the rees of c abiing is 
 immediately followed by an increase of traffic and that 
 the increase of traffic before very long will make up for 
 any loss in the reduction of rates. AH experience I 
 have is against that. 1 have brought here a table 
 which I would like each member of the Commission to 
 have [handing in the same). 
 
 Number of Ordinary Words exchanged between Australasia on the one side and Europe and America 
 
 on the other. " Pacific" and ''Eastern." 
 
 Year. 
 
 Europe. 
 
 Pacific. I Eastern. 
 
 Total. 
 
 1886 
 
 1887 
 1S88 
 1889 
 18a0 
 1891 
 
 1892 
 1893 
 
 1894 
 1895 
 1896 
 
 1897 
 1898 
 1899 
 1900 
 
 1901 
 
 1902 
 
 1903 
 190-1 
 1905 
 1906 
 1907 
 1908 
 1909 
 1910 
 1911 
 
 19,813 
 
 462,010 
 500,469 
 516,165 
 623,941 
 695,346 
 665,611 
 725.767 
 773,031 
 862,881 
 
 370.258 
 
 434,681 
 493,922 
 498,723 
 504,638 
 724,989 
 
 868,357 
 1,015,120 
 
 9.59,371 
 1,575,033 
 1,987,173 
 1,742,188 
 1,558,894 
 1,795,686 
 1,737,491 
 
 1,764,991 
 
 1,779,014 
 
 1..522,211 
 
 1.620,903 
 1,681,826 
 1,805,863 
 1.846,194 
 1^733,737 
 1,758,214 
 1,988,604 
 2,075,935 
 
 370,258 
 
 434,681 
 493,922 
 498,723 
 504,638 
 724,989 
 
 868,357 
 1,01.5,120 
 
 9.59 371 
 1,575,033 
 1,987.173 
 
 1,742,188 
 1,558,894 
 1,795,686 
 1,737,491 
 
 •1912 830,072 2,068,135 
 
 1912 273,234 
 
 165,792 
 
 America. 
 
 Pacific, Eastern. Total. 
 
 1,764,991 — 
 
 1,798,857 14,051 
 
 — 18.370 
 
 26,597 
 30.IB3 
 34,928 
 36,436 
 55,388 
 
 54,685 
 46,219 
 
 49.214 
 
 61,014 
 
 77,771 
 
 87,692 
 
 107,004 
 
 119,976 
 
 129,607 
 
 146.967 
 
 1,984,227 
 2,121,372 
 2,197,991 
 2,429.804 
 2,.541,.540 
 2,399,348 
 2,483,981 
 2,761,635 
 2,938,816 
 
 2,898,204 
 439,026 
 
 2.52,911 
 
 272,591 
 297,945 
 345,942 
 347,911 
 362,463 
 347,895 
 392,480 
 451.943 
 
 518,199 
 
 73,261 
 
 184.327 
 
 1.5,533 
 7,545 
 8,021 
 7,077 
 8.375 
 4,02(> 
 4,234 
 4,449 
 6.717 
 
 9,869 
 1,029 
 
 18,370 
 
 26,597 
 30,163 
 34,928 
 36,436 
 55,388 
 
 54,685 
 46,219 
 
 49,214 
 
 61,014 
 
 77.771 
 
 87,692 
 
 U'7,004 
 
 119,976 
 
 129,607 
 
 146,967 
 
 198,378 
 
 268,444 
 280,136 
 305.966 
 35.3,019 
 356,286 
 366,489 
 3.52,129 
 396,929 
 458,690 
 
 J28,068 
 74,290 
 
 Euiope and America. 
 
 Pacific. Eastern. 
 
 388.628 
 
 461.278 
 524,085 
 533.651 
 541,074 
 780,377 
 
 923,042 
 1,061.339 
 
 1,008,585 
 1,636,047 
 2,064,944 
 1,829,880 
 1,665,898 
 1,915,662 
 1,867,098 
 
 1,911,958 
 
 33.894 
 
 714,927 
 
 773,060 
 
 814,110 
 
 969,883 
 
 1,043,2.57 
 
 1.028,074 
 
 1,073,662 
 
 1.165,511 
 
 1,314.824 
 
 1,348,271 
 
 346.495 
 
 1.963.341 
 
 1,537,714 
 1.628.448 
 1,689.84 
 
 Total. 
 
 388,628 
 
 461.278 
 .524,085 
 533,651 
 .541,074 
 780,377 
 
 923,042 
 1,061,339 
 
 1,008,585 
 1,636,047 
 2,064,944 
 1,829,880 
 1,665,898 
 1,915,662 
 1,867,098 
 
 1,911,958 
 
 1,997,235 
 
 2,252.671 
 2,401,508 
 2,503,9.57 
 
 1,812,940 2,782,823 
 
 1.854.569 ! 2,897,826 
 
 1,737.763 ' 2,765,837 
 
 1,762,448 I 2.836.110 
 
 1,993,053 
 2,082,682 
 
 2,078,001 
 
 166,821 
 
 3,158,564 
 3,397,506 
 
 3,426,2 
 
 -.13,316 
 
 Rcra.'irks. 
 
 1st July, 9.<. ill. (reduceil 
 fnim"lo.<. Si/.). 
 
 1st M.iy. 4.V. .S. and \V. 
 Australia. Messa.se 
 fund started. 
 
 1st January, in. 9il. 
 S. and VV. A'j.stralia. 
 
 1st May, 4s. All Colo- 
 nies. 
 
 1st January, 3.«. 6rf. All 
 Colonies. Cooos route 
 opened, November. 
 
 1st January. 3.«. .\U 
 Colduies. Pacific cable 
 opened, December 8th. 
 
 Increase over 1902 — 
 Europe, 63 per cent. ; 
 America. 131 per cent. 
 
 Deferred introduce. I, 
 January. 
 
 1st 
 
 These are some figures with reference to the rates 
 charged to Australia both before and since the Pacific 
 cable was opened. I would like the Commission to look 
 at the year 1896, which was before our cable opened. 
 That is the year of the maximum traffic under the 
 4s. '3d. i-ate. I might just mention perhaps as you wUl 
 
 see in the remarks that iu 1890 the rate was reduced 
 to 4s., and was put up again two years later to 4s. 9^. 
 The reason of that was that when it was reduced to 4«. 
 the Australian Governments (that was before Federa- 
 tion) undertook to make up to the Eastern Company a 
 certain proportion of the loss. The proportion they 
 
 D 3
 
 30 
 
 bOMINlONS ROYAL COMMISSION ! 
 
 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimkose, K.c.b.. C.8.1. [Oversea Communicatione ; Post and Telegraph. 
 
 had to make up they found such a heavy tax upon 
 them that thev themselves asked the Company. I believe, 
 to raise the tariff again to is. 9d. a word, and that 
 prevailed, as you \vill see. mitil the year 1899. when it 
 came down to 4s.. and next year it came down to 3s. tW.. 
 and next yeaj- to 3s. Those i-ednetions. of course, were 
 in view of the probable opening of the Pacific cable. 
 Xow let us take the period dm-ing wliii-h the rate was 
 at 4s. ihl. and you will find that in the year 1890 the 
 traffic to Europe (which I think we have to keep 
 separate from the traffic to America. l)ecause the 
 opening of the Pacific cable really created the American 
 traffic you may say. and therefoi-e in order to compare 
 like ynth like we ought to confine om- attention to the 
 European traffic, at any rate in the first instance) 
 was nearly two million words at the full rate. If 
 you will "go on to the year 1911. which was the 
 last year before we had introduced the deferred messages, 
 which complicates matters, and again in order to 
 compare like with like— you will see that we had just 
 under a total of 3.000,000. combining om- traffic with 
 that of the Eastern. That, if you work it out. 
 practically amoiuits to 48 per cent. — to be (juite 
 accurate it is 47 89 per cent. — increase, call it 48 per 
 cent. Xow what ought the increa.se of traffic to have 
 teen in oi-der to compensate for the reduction of rate 
 from 4s. ikl. to 3s. ? lu order really to compensate, the 
 increase ought to have been a little over 58 per cent. 
 Therefore, even in 1-5 years you see the amount of 
 traffic has not increased sufficiently to make up the 
 i-eduction in the rate. 
 
 .569. Ton are taking a peak year with an average 
 year; your J896 year is a peak year? — Tes. but I 
 think you ought "to take the peak year because that 
 represents what the pressm-e of the rate could d.;. 
 I think you must take the peak year- ; you are wanting 
 to know" what is the force of the pressure of the 4.>\ 9d. 
 rate. Therefore. 1 think you must take the peak year 
 and not the average. Of course many other things 
 come into consideration. It is not to be supposed 
 that the 3.000.000, or thereabouts, words which were 
 sent in the year 1911 represent no more than the 
 :>,000.000 words which were sent in 1896, because the 
 improvement of codes has no doubt enabled a great 
 deal more matter to be packed into those 3.000,000 
 words than was packed into the 2,000,000 words of 
 1896. 
 
 570. Can you estimate how much that amoimts to ■• 
 — No, I do not think that is possible. 
 
 571. {Mr. CcmpbeU.) Is not that year 1896 the year 
 in which the traffic was forced up by the Western 
 Austi-alian mining boom ?— Very likely ; no doubt the 
 traffic rises and falls according to the trade. 
 
 572. Still, it is hardly a year you could argue a 
 question of this sort from :- — I think so, because we 
 are hxjking at one element in the case, which is the 
 rate. If J'ou find that iu a given year the rate could 
 not operate i<> depress the traffic beyond a certain 
 point that. I think, is your real test of what the 
 pressxu-e that the rate can exercise is. rather than the 
 average. However, that is one of my instances. 
 
 573. (Chairman.) Will you please go on to your 
 next point ? — I am now wanting to keep to what I 
 might call the eridence from experience. The Atlantic 
 companies (this I give on the authority of a letter 
 from Mr. Goddard. wlui is the European representative 
 of the Western i:'nion. and who kindly supplied me 
 with facts picked out of the published reports of the 
 Anglo-American Company which they have absofbed) 
 in or about the year 1884 reduced the rate from 2s. to 
 1.S-. 8(7. There liad been changes in the rates before, 
 but I will not go further back than that. In the 
 report for the half-year ending 31st December 1885 
 thev said that the "loss caused by reduction of rate 
 from 2s. to Is. Sd. (that would exactly con-espond with 
 the reduction in om- rate from 3s. to 2s. (id.) estimated 
 in the report of the directors, dated 29th Januai-j- 1885. 
 at 170.000/. a year has amounted to more than that 
 sum. as it has not been followed by any augmentation 
 of tiie traffic. That was in 1885. Now then a year 
 later, in view of the competition of the Commercial 
 
 Cable Company, which was opened, I think, in 1884, 
 they suddenly reduced their rate from Is. Sd. to 6rf. a 
 word. That was a reduction of 70 per cent, and this 
 is what they say about the effect of that : ■' a consider- 
 " able augmentation of the traffic, much larger than 
 ■ was anticipated as a tirst result amounting to 116 per 
 •■ cent., and althoiigh the total receipts have greatly 
 - decreased the company is earning sufficient to pay 
 ■■ its working expenses plus a siuu to the credit of the 
 -' renewal fund."' For the next few years reference is 
 made to the tid. tariff, which lasted about three years, 
 I think, and which apparently continued to produce an 
 autrmentation of traffic. In the report for December 
 1887. the last year they had the 6rf. i-ate, they stated 
 that the traffic passing over the cables of the joint 
 companies showed an increase of 12 per cent, over the 
 same period of 1886 (both those years there was a 6rf. 
 rate) and an increase of 126 per cent, over the same 
 period in 1885 w-hen the Is. 8(f. rate was in force ; but 
 they go on to say that the ti-affic was yet unremunera- 
 tive. That 70 per cent, reduction in the rate was a 
 very enormous reduction, and in order to compensate for 
 such a reduction as 70 per ceni., the increase of traffic 
 instead of being as it was. 126 per cent., ought to have 
 l)een as much as 233 per cent. You see you reduced your 
 rate to rather less than one third. Therefore, in order 
 to compensate for that you ought to have got an 
 increase of ti-affic i-ather more than three times as much 
 so as to balance. Having got to that point they got 
 tired of the 6rf. i-ate and went back in 1888 to the Is. 
 rate, which has been maintained ever since. I think 
 both the experience of the Atlantic companies and the 
 experience of the Eastern does show that while, of 
 coui-se, the higher the rate and the greater the reduction, 
 the more the effect wiU be upon the traffic, when you 
 have got down to moderate i-ates, if you only make a 
 compai-ativelv small percentage of reduction it really 
 hardly affects the traffic at all. That, I think, for 
 reasons which I may give later, is exactly what one 
 would expect, but before I go away from that point 
 I would like to go to our experience in the reduction 
 of the jjress rate, because that is a different class of 
 traffic altogether, which took place in the year 1909 as 
 the result of the Imperial Press Conference, which was 
 held in London. This (handing in a table, for which 
 see page 31) shows exactly the number of words carried 
 by the Pacific and the Eastern respectively. 
 
 The reduction that was made in 1909 was from Is. a 
 word to 9d. a word. Xow if you take the year before the 
 reduction was made. 1907-8, you see that there was 
 a total of 360,000 odd words costing to the press about 
 18,000/. At that conference a very great deal was 
 made of the extreme importance of enabUng the press 
 to supply a larger amount of news, and there was 
 something very like an imdertaking given that if such 
 a reduction was made the press would not save any 
 money by it. but would use the concession in price for 
 the purpose of increasing their supply of news. But 
 you find that whereas in 1907-8 the press were 
 spending 18,000/. on then- cables, in the year- 1909-10, 
 which is the year after, they only spent 14,000/. ; in 
 other words they i-eally economised the whole of the 
 money. After that we go up very much ; the deferred 
 press brings it up for one thing, and there again I do 
 not for a moment suggest that the rate is the only 
 consideration which affects the total amount of traffic, 
 because there are many other things, but still it is 
 significant that the immediate effect of the i-eduction 
 fi-om Is. to 9rf. was practically nil from the point of 
 view of increasing the supply of news. 
 
 574. However, the total effect of the reductions 
 after a certain nimiber of years has I^een to increase 
 the number of words sent from 360,000 to 627,000 .= — 
 Yes, but I think there are many other considerations. 
 I cannot speak with knowledge, but a great deal has 
 happened. For instance, new papers have ijeen started 
 in Australia. A new sei-vice altogether has been 
 started by the - Sun " as to which you have had some 
 evidence. I ought to say this does not include the amount 
 of traffic suppUed by a company which was started, I 
 think, in the year 1910, just after the conference, 
 called the '■ Independent Cable Service," which collects
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 31 
 
 a^ 
 
 12 Novemher 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Pkimbosb, k.c.b., c.s.i. [Oversea Communications .- Post and Telegraph. 
 
 Australasian Press Traffic. 
 
 The following figures show the effect on the volvime of traffic caused through the reduction of rates between 
 the United Kingdom and Australasia : — 
 
 
 Pacific. 
 
 Eastern. 
 
 Total. 
 
 Coat to Press 
 
 *1 901-2 - - - - 
 
 
 289,626 
 
 289,626 
 
 £ 
 14,481 
 
 1902-3 ... - 
 
 1,612 
 
 244,159 
 
 245,771 
 
 12,289 
 
 1903-4 - - 
 
 37,146 
 
 265.806 
 
 302,952 
 
 15,148 
 
 1904-5 ... - 
 
 18,973 
 
 237,100 
 
 256,073 
 
 12,804 
 
 1905-6 - - - - 
 
 13,034 
 
 254,481 
 
 267,515 
 
 13,376 
 
 1906-7 ... - 
 
 16,744 
 
 241,833 
 
 258,577 
 
 12,929 
 
 1907-8 - - - . 
 
 84,295 
 
 276.378 
 
 360,673 
 
 18,039 
 
 +1908-9 - . - - 
 
 70,167 
 
 249,470 
 
 319,637 
 
 15,983 
 
 1909-10 .... 
 
 94,021 
 
 243,861 
 
 337,882 
 
 14,023 
 
 ] 910-11 ... - 
 
 152,665 Deferred press.* 
 
 230,197 DefeiTed press. 
 
 382,862 
 
 14,357 
 
 1911-12 .... 
 
 170,519 17,363 
 
 238.747 
 
 426,629 
 
 15,673 
 
 1912-13 .... 
 
 122,841 106,849 
 
 397,644 177 
 
 627.511 
 
 19,523 
 
 ' Board opened on December 7tb, 1902. 
 
 t Kate reduced from l.«. lo 9J. per word on August 1st, 1909, and to 7hi. on September 26tLi, 1912. 
 
 I Introduced on Deccmlser 6th, 1911. 
 
 Total press traffic the year before 1st reduction 
 ,, ., last year .... 
 
 Increase 
 
 319,637 words costing 15,982 
 627,511 „ „ 19,523 
 
 96 per cent. 
 
 22 per cent. 
 
 its news m Canada, and telegraphs it from Canada to 
 Australia, thereby, of course, saving a great deal 
 because they get a very cheap rate ; but that service 
 was given a subsidy. Altogether they have received 
 6,000?. for three years, and that, I suppose, is just 
 about coming to an end. Any way, the amount they 
 paid to us was very little more than the amount of the 
 6,000L they received from the Government. 
 
 575. But would not you agree that the net effect 
 of your reduction as shown in these figures was 
 satisfactory ? — I read those figures as indicating that 
 apart from other things the effect of the reduction was 
 nil. I take a clear year, 1909-10, during which the rate 
 was 9d.. and a clear year during which it was Is., 
 namely 1907-8. and diu-ing that time, of course, the 
 other influences would have less time to operate ; 
 there would be less change in the two years, and yet 
 what you find is that not a bit more news was sent ; 
 the papers benefited to the extent of 4,000?.. but that 
 was not our object, and we should not have done it 
 for that purpose. 
 
 576. However, when you come to 1912-13 you have 
 the number of words nearly doubled ? — Tes. 
 
 577. In fact more than doubled when you compare 
 1912-13 with any triennial average of the earlier 
 period ." — Tes, but I think one would say that was due 
 less to reduced rate than to the other influences which 
 operate. 
 
 578. Have you any further figures to bring forward 
 in connection with yoiu- contention, or would you pass 
 to the theoretical considerations ? — I think those are 
 all the figures I can offer. Of course, as I say, a great 
 deal depends. If you hive got a rate which is really 
 oppressive, and if you have reduced it. then undoubtedly 
 you would have a considerable increase in traffic ; 
 but our present rate is certainly not opi>ressive 
 to the business people who send us by far the 
 larger proportion of traffic. On that I have a 
 table I should like to put in (handing in the same) 
 showing what proportion of oiu- traffic comes from 
 liusiness telegrams, and what proportion from private 
 telegrams. 
 
 Statement showing Four Weeks (1912-13) Ordinary and Deferred Ordinary International Traffic 
 
 Classified Private and Business. 
 
 
 
 Ovdi 
 
 nary. 
 
 
 Deferred Ordinary. 
 
 
 I'rivate. 
 
 Business. 
 
 I'cvcenta^ic. 
 I'rivate. Business. 
 
 Private. 
 
 Business. 
 
 Percentage. 
 
 
 Private. Business. 
 
 Outward . 
 Homeward 
 
 3,155 
 3,455 
 
 40,253 
 55,955 
 
 7-27 92-73 
 5-82 ( 94-18 
 
 8,472 
 
 8,016 
 
 7,797 
 9,389 
 
 52-07 
 46-06 
 
 47-93 
 53-94 
 
 6,610 
 
 96,208 
 
 6-43 
 
 93-57 
 
 16,488 
 
 17,186 
 
 48-96 
 
 j1-04 
 
 579. That is very interesting. — I should say that it 
 wotdd be an enormous labour to analyse the traffic 
 over any long period, but the way I did it M-as 
 this: I took four weeks in the year 1912-13. not c-on. 
 secutive weeks, but I picked out, or rather I had a 
 normal week selected in each of the four quarters, and we 
 analysed the whole of the traffic dui-ing those weeks. 
 This table gives you quite shortly the results. I have 
 them in detail for,thefovir weeks, but I thought it more 
 convenientf or the Commission merely to have this simple 
 
 table, becattse there you see the result at a glance. You 
 see at a glance that out of the ordinary, about 6.V per 
 cent, is private and 934 per cent, is business. Then, 
 of coiu-se. when you tui-n to the deferred ordinary, it is 
 different ; it is very nearly half and half. 
 
 580. Can you s<ay what it wovdd be for the week, 
 end ? — The week-end has only been going since the 
 l;ieginuing of this year, and 1 think statistics which 
 are founded on inadequate material are very fallacious. 
 After all, you cannot really judge of the weei-end very 
 
 D 4
 
 32 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 
 
 12 yovember 1913.] Rt. Hon. oir H. Primeose. k.c.b., c.S.i. [_Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 ■well yet, because fli-st of all it took people a little time 
 to understand it. It lias been keeping wonderfully 
 steiidy, between •5.000 and 6,000 words a week, so fai' 
 as we are conceraed. I do not know what the Ea.steni 
 have. Now, lookino: at tlie figures of ordinaiy 
 ti^afiic. and taking that great proportion which is 
 supplied by the business trafifie. and taking the present 
 rate cf 3s. a word, combined with these ekbonite com- 
 bination codes which get in, it is very difficiUt to say 
 how miiny, but certainly not less than six effective 
 words for each word that is in the code (and when I 
 say effective. I mean omitting obriously useless words 
 like the article •'the" or "a"' and things of that 
 kind). I do not suppose the i-ate really exercises any 
 restraining influence upon business people in the 
 matter of cabling. I think it is diffictilt to suppose 
 that, over such transactions as the cables deal with, a 
 few shillings more or less could make much difference. 
 Therefore, under the circumstances I should veiy much 
 doubt whether for business people, taking any con- 
 ceivable reduction which might l.v possible at the 
 present moment such as 6d. or anything of tb.at kind, 
 it would make any difference at all in the traffic. I do 
 not think it would. The only people it would make 
 any real difference to would be private people who on 
 occasions, and only on occasions, find they would like 
 to telegi-aph, and if they find the prices very high they 
 say, '■ We must do without." If, on the other hand, 
 they find it is moderate, knowing that they have got 
 these opportunities, the defeiTed and the week-end. 
 they will probably resort to them, and it is only that 
 class of business that would be affected. As I say. 
 that class of business is rekitively quite small, and I 
 think that the possible extensions of it are not great, 
 because nobody telegraphs for the sake of telegraphing. 
 You must have a good strong reason for telegi-aphing ' 
 before you do telegi-aph ; even in this countiy one 
 does not send a telegram even at a halfpenny a word 
 if a letter wiU do as well. So that I think, from that 
 point c-i view, such a reduction as 6d. would have very 
 little effect upon the total amount of traffic, and would 
 i-esult in merely a coiTesponding reduction in our 
 revenue, which at present we cannot afford. 
 
 581. That applies to the full-i-ate telegrams 'f — That 
 is so. 
 
 582. Jfow as regards the defen-ed and the week- 
 end, what do you say about either a further i-eduction 
 of price or fui-ther facUities, such as those we recom- 
 mended'- — I think they again would certainly result in 
 loss. What we felt was that the justification fiir 
 introducing the deferred at all was this : we considered 
 (and I think it was genei-ally considered) that it woidd 
 to some extent create new business, that is to say, that 
 a considei-ahle amount of traffic would be created 
 which woidd not othei-n'ise have existed, it would 
 induce people to use the cable, who, if they had to pay 
 the 3s. i-ate. would not use it, and experience, I think, 
 shows that has been the result. I do not think that 
 more than about half of the traffic we get for the 
 defeiTed is new ti-affic. A good deal of it represents 
 business ; if you look, they are nearly half-and- 
 half. The business half represents, I think, pretty 
 largely messages which were not very pressing in point 
 of time, and which it was more convenient to send in 
 plain language ; after all, there is always a certain 
 advantage in sending in plain language, because you 
 save the coding at one end and the decoding at the 
 other; so that if there is nothing secret about a 
 message, if thei-e is nothing which for business 
 pm-poses you do not want to be kni>wn. and if you 
 are not in a veiy great huny there is a certain advan- 
 tage in sending defen-ed. If defen-ed had not existed. 
 I think probably all those messages would have been 
 sent, but they would have been sent in code, packed 
 much tighter, so that there perhaps we gain a little. 
 It might be worth people's while, instead of coding a 
 message, to send rather a longer message at the de- 
 ferred rate, and spend a little more upon it. just to save 
 the expense of coding and decoding at the other end. 
 But to reduce still further I think would have this 
 effect, that it would transfer a certain amount of 
 business from the ordinaiy category, which pays us 
 well, to the deferred category, which barely pays us 
 except in so fai- as it may be new business. Then I 
 
 should say the same of the week-end cables, that there 
 is always the risk, if you make those things too cheap, 
 that you do really merely transfer a certain amount of 
 the full-paid traffic to the half- or ijuarter-paid rates. 
 
 5S3. However, if coding reduces the number of 
 wortls to one- sixth and your difference of charge is 
 only one-half, you are really making the sender of a 
 defen-ed telegi-am pay thi-ee times the rate of the coder ? 
 — You are. but it is necessaiy to do that in order to 
 prevent the business being transf en-ed from the categoiy 
 which is remunerative to the category which is vini-e- 
 munerative. The whole object of the defeii-ed was not 
 to benefit business people, but to alleviate the tax on ■ 
 private persons who, on occasions, had to use the cable, 
 and hi so far as it relieves the business people that was 
 not our object. Of coui-se, I agree I should not di-eam 
 of wishing to keep the rates up higher than necessaiy 
 to make the thing remvinei-ative, and the more you can 
 come down the better, but for the moment we want to 
 get a certain revenue out of the cable, and if we were to 
 i-educe the deferred further we should diminish our 
 chances of getting that revenue. 
 
 .584. However, you agree with me that effectively 
 you are chai-ging the defen-ed telegi-am in plain 
 language three times the rate you ai-e charging the 
 cypher telegi-am at full rate ? — No doubt, yes, roughly 
 that is so. 
 
 585. That is basing myself on your calculation ? — 
 Rouglily. 
 
 58t). Now we come to the question of load factor ? — 
 I think the Commission have already had befo)-e them 
 the little volume of notes* which we published a year or 
 two ago. and in that we give T.OOO.OOO paying words 
 per annum as about the maximum. 
 
 587. A^Tiat proportion of your real maximum 
 capacity is now passing over the Pacific cable ? — 
 Roughly thi-ee-sevenths. We are doing, you may say, 
 at the present moment about 3.000,000 words all told. 
 
 588. That is including defen-ed ? — Everything. I 
 have put the maximum theoretical capacity at 7.000,000. 
 I should saj" that is considerably higher than the 
 estimate which the Post Office made two years ago of 
 the can-ying capacity of an Atlantic cable, although 
 om- length of cable between Vancouver and Fanning 
 Island is pretty nearly double what the length of the 
 Atlantic cable would be. so evidently there is room for a 
 great deal of difference of opinion. For the purposes 
 of argument it is better, perhaps, to put it high, and I 
 would i-dther put it a little too high than too low. I 
 think you may take 7.000.000 as a veiy full estimate. 
 
 589. That is with the recent developments, the 
 duplex working and so forth ? — Yes. 
 
 590. It would not be higher than that ? — No. 
 
 591. AVbat do yon say of the load factor of thi-ee- 
 sevenths ? Does that allow you more than enough 
 margin ? — Yes. I think so. That is a matter perhaps 
 for people who are better acquainted with the technical 
 working, but my own impressiim is that -5.000,000 words 
 would be about as much as it would be adrisable to 
 have in order to avoid the danger, which is very serious, 
 of the cable getting itself blocked with matt«r which is 
 not really very important, to the exclusion of business 
 telegi-ams which are really lu-gent. 
 
 592. So you have then a capacity of dealing with 
 about 5,000,000 words as opposed to the actual 
 3.000,000 ?— I should put it like that, and even then of 
 the 5,000,000 a considerable amount must be of a 
 kind which you could defer; for instance, we are 
 entitled to defer press messages up to a point, and ^vith 
 the defen-ed and week-end cables also we are entitled 
 to defer them, but allowing for that I think about 
 5.0UO.(lllO words, or perhaps 5-J million words of all 
 kinds would be about as much as it woiUd be advisable 
 to put on to the cable. 
 
 593. You state here that it would not be desirable 
 to inci-eise the load factor by traffic which did not 
 bring in an average of at least Is. 6d. a word ? — Yes. 
 
 594. Would you kindly develop that ? — If I had a 
 copy of the little book of notes which was supplied to 
 the Commission it would help me. 
 
 595. Then we will pass on from that just now. and 
 come back to it. I think you have something to say 
 with regard to the co-operation between the Pacific 
 
 * ■ ] id I'acific, beiiie ^^onK• notes on the Pacific Cable.''
 
 MINUTES OF EVlDEXl'E. 
 
 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimrose, k.c.b., c.S.i. [Oversea Commiuiicaiions : Post and Telegrajjh. 
 
 cable and the Eastern cable ? — Tes. I do not know 
 how far the Commission is aware of the history of 
 what passed in 1905, but in 1905 there was a committee 
 which sat at the Colonial Office, presided (jver by the 
 late Mr. Lyttelton, on which there were representatives 
 of the different Dominions and ourselves. The 
 immediate purpose cjf the inquiry was to look into a 
 matter which is rather ancient history now, but at the 
 very time when the negotiations were going on for the 
 laying of the Pacific cable, and after it was quite clear 
 almost that the Pacific cable was going to be laid, the 
 Eastern entered into an agreement with the Govern- 
 ment of New South Wales which allowed them to open 
 offices of their own to a greater extent than they had 
 done before. The promoters of the Pacific cable were 
 very much annoyed at this, because they said, " This is 
 " giving an advantage to the Eastern at the very moment 
 " when you do not want to give it to them, because 
 " you are just going to start your Government cable," 
 and there was a good deal of f eelmg on the part of Canada 
 and New Zealand, I think, and so the great question 
 was : •' How can that agreement be set aside ? " The 
 conference met for the purpose of discussing that. 
 They found, as a matter of fact, that the agreement 
 (which had been confirmed by a later agreement with 
 the Commonwealth Government) could not be set 
 aside, and it stands now, and it was in virtue of 
 that agreement with the Eastern that the rate was 
 reduced to 3s. just before the Pacific cable opened. In 
 the course of that inquiry, when they found that they 
 could not really get rid of these agreements, it 
 occurred to them that another way of meeting the 
 difficulty was instead of actively competing with the 
 Eastern that the two should combine, very much, I 
 suppose, on the same principle that while an existing 
 railway will fight to the death to prevent a new 
 railway being established which competes with it. if 
 the new railway is established they then prolxibly 
 think the best plan is t(j come to terms with them. 
 That was the sort of idea. Those negotiations were 
 pursued to a considerable point, and at that time, 
 owing to the ch'cumstances, a considerable saving 
 could have been made on the expenditiu'e of the two 
 routes by a combination. A very large item would 
 have been that we should have been able to dispense 
 with our cable ship, which was cresting us 15,OI10Z. a 
 year. Under present circumstances that could not tie 
 done away with, and I do not believe thei'e would be 
 any very large saving of expenditure. There would I)e 
 some, because we spend a certain amount of money in 
 (•anvassing for clients, and so do the Eastern, and 
 probably the Eastern would be able to close certain 
 offices because there would lie no longer any particular 
 reason for giving their clients special facilities if we had 
 a common purse, liut I do not think there woidd lie really 
 any very great saving. Still it w(nild certainly have ad- 
 vantages of a kind to both. To ns the great advantage 
 would be — I do not want to suggest that I recommend it 
 - — butimdoulitedlyitwould have an en<:irnious advantage 
 in this way for us that we ride by a single anchor, so to 
 speak, by a single cable, and if we had a working 
 agreement and a common purse arrangement, if there 
 was an interruption of our cable our revenue would 
 not suffer. The whole would have to be carried by the 
 Eastern cables, and onr revenue would keep up, 
 whereas as things are now. if we had a bad break 
 which lasted for any length of time in the northern 
 parts of our cable, our revenue ceases altogether. I 
 think that is really the most important consideration 
 there is about it. 
 
 596. However, feeling is so strong against the idea 
 in Australasia that I do not think we need pui-sue it in 
 any detail? — No, 1 do not think it is a question of 
 pi'at^tical politics for that reason. 
 
 597. Yim say here that " Althougli no precise 
 " law or regulation determines the powers of either 
 '• administration in the matter of rates, circumstances 
 " conspire to make them in practice the subject of 
 " agreement " ? — Neither in tlie Act which constituted 
 the Pacific Cable Board, nor in any instructions issued 
 to us by the Government, is there any specific direction 
 or definition of what our powers are as regai'ds altering 
 of rates. It may be assumed that we have thecn-etically 
 
 E 20S3U 
 
 almost complete power, subject to the general scheme 
 of our enterprise, which is that it is to be, if possible, 
 self-supporting. On that Mr. Chamberlain gave very 
 strong assurances. In a letter which was signed by 
 Lord Selljorne addressed to the Eastern and Eastern 
 Extension Telegraph Companies, dated lOth July 1899. 
 writing on Ijelialf of the Secretary of State, Lord 
 Selborne said : " There is no intention of working the 
 '■ new cable on other than commercial lines and at 
 " remunei-ative rates.''* I have always held, myself, 
 and I think the Board since it was instituted has held, 
 that that really I'epresented the principle upon which 
 we were to endeavcjur to work, and therefore that we 
 shonld not be justified in introducing nttes which were 
 not remunerative. 
 
 598. What meaning do you attach to the words 
 " On commercial lines" ? — That we shoidd manage it 
 as much as we can as though it was a private business : 
 in other words, that we should manage it very much as 
 a cable comjiany would manage it. 
 
 599. Does that mean that you would have as high 
 rates as the traffic will stand ? — There I think you 
 would have to qualify it. I think it is perfectly clear 
 that if you take tlie history of the Pacific cable, and 
 the intentions of those who laid it, you would never 
 really be able to carry it on long at rates which brought 
 in a substantial profit ; in other words, that the general 
 revenues of the countries which laid the cable would 
 not be allowed to reap benefit by profits made, and 
 that the moment you got to that point you would have 
 to begin to think about reducing rates, certainly. 
 
 6(M). The origin of the Pacific cable was primarily 
 to reduce cable rates to Australia, we have been told 'i 
 — No, I should not say that. Of course, I had nothing 
 to do with the thing at that time, but my reading of 
 the history of it is this, that the moment the telegrapli 
 wires reached the Pacific coast of Canada, it became 
 inevitable that somehow or another the Pacific Ocean 
 should Ije spanned by cable. You have a large Brltisli 
 Dominion on one side of the Pacific, and you have 
 large British Dominions on the further side, and it 
 was quite clear that those coimtries had got to be 
 connected liy a cable, and I think that was the reason. 
 No doubt also it was desired to establish something in 
 the way of competition, especially. I suppose, that 
 would influence Australia and New Zealand, and that 
 they then felt that if there was competition the\' would 
 be assured that they were not being charged undidy 
 for their cable traffic. 
 
 fiOl. Was not the motive of Australia and New 
 Zealand in joining in the guarantees to obtain 
 cheaper telegi'aphic communication H — I suppose, un- 
 doubtedly, that would enter very largel3- into it, and it 
 undoubtedly had that effect. The innnediate effect 
 was to reduce from 4s. !W. to ;!s. 
 
 602. You go on to speak of deferred and week-end 
 messages, which you have already explained, and' in 
 connection with daily cable letters you say : '■ The 
 " Pacific Cable Board have considered the question of 
 " adopting the American system ; but hold that it is 
 •• not appropriate between countries in which day and 
 ■■ night do not coincide, even in part." Will you 
 kindly explain that ? — The system of daily cable 
 letters I think we have now established here, and they 
 have it in the United States. The idea of that was, no 
 doubt, to utilise the wires during the hours of the 
 night when, if it was not for this soi-t of traffic, they 
 would not, perhaps, be being used at all. In the 
 earlier part of the night they are heavily charged with 
 press work, but in the later hours and in the early morn- 
 ing houi's they are probably pretty fi'ee. Now we have 
 no such time as that, because if it is night here it is day 
 in Australia, and if it is day here it is night in Australia, 
 and the consequence is that there is no dead time. 
 
 603. So that you do not see your way at the present 
 stage to I'ccommend any increased facilities ? — No, I 
 think any increased facilities would tend to reduce our 
 revenue in a way which I do not think is at present 
 justified ; for instance, you were suggesting just now 
 that the time would come when we covered onr own 
 expenses and did not require any subsidy, and I 
 replied that then, no doubt, you would have to begin 
 
 p. 29 of [Cd. 4fi] January 1900. 
 
 E
 
 34 
 
 DOMINIONS nOYAL COM MISSION 
 
 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sii- H riilsiEOSE, k.c.b., c.s.i. ^Oversea Commiuiieatiotis : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 to consider reductions in rates. Tliit is the time 
 whon I think you might very well consider improve- 
 meits, that is to say, an increase in the advaut;iges 
 given for those cheaper rates. For instance, if you 
 could not give away as much as a perceutage i-eductiou 
 over eveiythiug. you might begin with reductions of 
 the kind which have been suggested in connection ■vrith 
 week-end cable letters, and pei-haps reduce the rate or 
 give moi-e words or fewer words as a miuimuiu. All 
 these things tend to make it a more expensive service 
 to us and a more attractive sei-vice to the public. 
 
 604-. Would the reduction of the minimum number 
 of words of the week-end letter act detriment ally ■" — I 
 think it would, because every change of that kind you 
 make tends to olilitei-ate the distinction between the 
 defeiTed, which is the ordinaiy daily message, and the 
 week-end cable. For instance, if the week-end cable 
 was to be conveyed by wire inland as well as "l)y cable 
 over-sea at both ends, and if it was to be deli\'ered on 
 a Monday morning, thei'e would be really no distinction 
 between it and the deferred message : and it conies to 
 that, that you would then be giving your- deferred 
 message for two days at the end of each week at half 
 the ordinai-y rates. 
 
 60.J. Those are two days on which yoiu' lines are 
 normally vacant? — No, there is a fair amomit doing. 
 If you take between this country and America you maj- 
 say there ai-e, perhaps, 40 hovu-s at the week-ends which 
 are more or less idle, but if you take between us and 
 Ansti-alia and New Zealand you really do not get moi-e 
 than ii houi-s l^ecause there then- Monday has begun 
 before oui- Sunday is ended, and oiu- Satui-ilay is going on 
 dtmng pai-t of theu' Simday ; so that there is a good deal 
 less dead time, and tliat is one reason why. when we fii-st 
 suggested adopting this American plan of the week-end 
 cable letters, we doubted whether we could be quite as 
 libeiul as the American scheme was. for this reason 
 partly, because we did not want to make it too atti'ac- 
 tive and we had not as much spai-e time. The idea of the 
 week-end cables, I think, was this, that it shoxxld enable 
 people who might like to send i-ather a long telegi-am 
 from time to time to do so, and that we should give them 
 the oppoitunity of doing that at a fairly cheap rate. 
 We did not want it to take the place of the defen-ed. 
 The minimum charge for oui- message is now 18.s., but 
 negotiations which have been going ou with the Post 
 Office lately will almost certaiidy end in the minimum 
 chai'ge being reduced to 15s., which is the equivalent 
 of 20 words ; if you are to come much below that you 
 get into an order of messjige which is really an ordinary 
 defeiTed message. We do not want that the ordinaiy 
 sort of message of congi-atulation, or the message as t;> 
 having arrived safely in this countiy. and that sort of 
 thing, shoidd be cheapened. What we want is — let us 
 take this sort of case, that somebody out in Austj-alia 
 has some law liusiness in this countiy, and may be 
 suddenly called upon quite unexpectedly to send rather 
 a long comnumication to his agents, legal or otherwise. 
 Our object is to give those people an opportimity of 
 .sending a message of that kind at a modei-ate price 
 rather than to cheapen the ordinary message which 
 would otliei-wise go at the defen-ed rate. 
 
 GOli. Would you not wish to stimulate the sending 
 of family telegi-ams of a social character ? — Personally, 
 I should not. 
 
 607. Speaking quite impai-tially. that is sui-ely a 
 new soiu'ce of income which might conceivably l^e 
 developed ? — I do not think you woiild get much out of 
 it ; there is no particidar object in it. Let me give my 
 own experience : for the greater part of my life I had 
 two brothel's out in Au.straUa (they are not there now) 
 who spent the whole of their lives there, and eveiy now 
 and then we sent a telegi-am. but however cheap they 
 might have been I do not think we shoidd have sent any 
 more- — why should we ? 
 
 608. That is hypothetical. — 1 do not think yon are 
 suddenly inspired to send a telegi-am out of fam-ily 
 affection. 
 
 609. But your family affection surely might be 
 cui-bed by high prices !' — You woiUd like Christm:!s 
 greetings or birthday greetings. 
 
 610. (Sir aider Haggard.) Cases of illness, and so 
 on ? — Yes, but I think for those things we have got it 
 
 as cheap as we can afford to make it. I should be glad 
 to see it cheaper if we could afford it, but the whole 
 of my argument rests on the fact that you would not 
 then make up our loss. While perhaps a few more 
 people would telegraph in case of illness, and so on. 
 that would not make up to us for the loss we shoidd 
 have on messages we shoidd have had in any case, and 
 paid for at full rates. 
 
 611. (Chairman.) I quite understand that you do not 
 want the people who now send at Ss. to send at "</. — No. 
 
 612. The question is whether it is not possible by 
 extended facilities to reduce rates and to tap a non- 
 existent source of revenue ? — That exactly states the 
 case, I think, and I say " No. it is not." It is quit* ti-ue 
 you might tap all these sources and you might produce 
 a certain amount of new traffic, but the amount of exti-a 
 traffic you will produce will uotliing like compensate 
 you for the loss you will incur upon traffic which you 
 woidd have had in any case. 
 
 613. At the higher rate ? — Yes. 
 
 611. There are two particular points you i-ather 
 wanted to give evidence about, and one is about the 
 Sydney " Sun " service on which we had some evidence in 
 Austi-alia y- — Yes, you had some evidence which implied 
 that it was owing to otu- inability that we did not get 
 the traffic. 1 did not thiuk it worth while bringing all 
 the coiTespondence, but I will read you two telegrams 
 which passed on the 2(>th March 1913 between oiu-- 
 selves and our Slanager in the Pacific. The Mjinager 
 in the Pacific telegi-aphed to us on the 20th Mai-ch 
 1913. •• ' Sun ' " (that is the " Sun "" paper) •■ likely to 
 ■■ give us half pi-ess service providing we can guai-antee 
 •• same time in ti-ansit as Eastern. This is stated to 
 " be I5 to 2 houi-s. The messages would te lodged in 
 •• London between 8 in the evening and 1 in the 
 ■• mornii4^. I suggest that Atlantic Company be 
 '• approached for co-operation and promise expedition 
 " for this traffic before going further," We were able 
 to telegraph the same day to them, ■■ Press messages ; 
 " have approached Atlantic companies who have 
 •• promised expeditious service. Appears quite safe to 
 ■■ offer as rapid a seiviceas the Ea-stei-n."' As a nuitter 
 of fact our sei-vice is really, whenever eveiything goes 
 smooth, as quick as, if not quicker than, tlie Eastern, 
 so that as far as we were concei-ned we undertook to do 
 exactly what they asked us to do. and we hoped, as the 
 result of that, they would divide the traffic equally 
 between oui-selves and the Eastern, which is what they 
 proposed to do, but for some reason, which has not 
 been commuiucated to us, they have, as a matter of 
 fact, given the whole of their work to the Eastern. 
 I merely want to point out that it was not our inability 
 to offer them a good and effective service, but some 
 other reasoJi they have not told us of. 
 
 61.5. There is another point about the identity of 
 the rate between Australia and San Francisco with 
 that between Australia and Vancouver ? — That is quite 
 true, and at first sight it might seem stiunge. But, 
 after all. the same thing liappens now in the case of a 
 message for Germany (that is not so with Fiance, 
 because we have not been able to an-ange the rate ; by 
 our route to France it is 3s. 6rf.. whei-eas by the 
 Eastern it is only 3s., so that the Eastern gets all). 
 But when the Pacific Cable was fiist established we 
 entered into negotiation with the Grerinan i^eople with 
 the result that we wei-e able to offer a 3.<. rate from 
 Gei-many to Australasia, which is the s;ime as fi-om 
 the United Kingdom. In a corresptmduig way the 
 26. rate, which is for the American Continent, applies 
 to the whole of North America, and, after all, it is 
 Austi-ahan business and Austi-alian businessmen who 
 pay, I suppose, the greater part of it. 
 
 616. (Mr. Tatlow.) Thei-e is just one question I 
 should like to ask legaiding the press. You have 
 given us a statement of the Australian press traffic. 
 The last figm-e for the yeai- 1912-13 is a very striking 
 figure ; there is an mcrease to 627.-j11. and that appears 
 to be on account of the reduction to ~},J. which occiUTed 
 in September 1912 : does not that look as if. when the 
 i-.ite is made sufficiently low. it would induce a consider- 
 able accession of ti'affic ? — No doubt the "Arf. came in 
 on the 26th September 1912, so that it has been in 
 force a little more than a year. But I should imagine
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 oO 
 
 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Si-.- H. Peimrose, K.C.B., c.s.l. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 that that gi-eat increase is due really to the starting of 
 new papers in Australia. I cannct speak for certain. 
 
 617. Do you know to -what extent these ue-w papers 
 have contributed to that lai-ge inci'ease ? — I cannot tell 
 you that. 
 
 618. May we not assiune that the reduction to 9d. 
 was not suflScient, but that the reduction to "hd. was 
 sufficient to induce a large additional business ?— I 
 should certainly not infer it from those figures. 
 
 619. Is not that what they sliow? — If a 25 per 
 cent, reduction in 1909 has no effect whatever upon 
 the amount of ti-affic, I hardly think that it is likely 
 that lid., which is only half, a year or two afterwards 
 would account for this enoimous increase. If you 
 look, the great increase has taken place on what the 
 Eastern have carried. 
 
 620. The reduction applie.s on l>oth routes ? — No, 
 the Eastern have no defen-ed. 
 
 621. We are speaking of the press messages; do 
 the Eastern not charge them 7id. ? — Yes, but not the 
 half I'ate. 
 
 622. The deferred figures apply to both routes, by 
 which the i-ates ai'e the same ? — Yes. 
 
 623. And the assumption is that the reduction has 
 made a very large increase, and even the reduction to 
 9d. made a considerable increase, because in the year 
 1911-12 there is 426.000. To my mind this statement 
 shows that the reductions have produced traffic. — 1 am 
 afraid I should not agree. 
 
 62-1. Then on this larger statement here, comparing 
 the figm-e for the year 1896. the figure for Europe was 
 1,987,000, as comi>ared with the last year 2,068,000, by 
 the Eastern route only, but 1 think, as Mr. Campbell 
 suggested, that is really a bad year to take for a com- 
 parison, as it was abnormally swollen by sj)ecial cir- 
 cumstances, and all tlie other years are consideiubly 
 less ? — Quite so, but the px'essure of the 4s. 9rf. rate is 
 a constant thing. Those variations represent the effect 
 of influences which are not constant and which we do 
 not know; but as to the 4s. 9d. constant rate, you 
 surely get a better test of the mischief it can do by 
 seeing what the traffic could get up to with the 4s. 9c7. 
 rate than by taking an average. 
 
 625. I only wanted to call your attention to the fact 
 that you do not take a nonnal year for comparison. — 
 I took it deliberately on that gromid. 
 
 626. You admit your cable is capable of doing a veiy 
 large amomit of extra work, some 2,000,000 words ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 627. And that additional work could be done at 
 very little, if any, increased expenditure ? — All increase 
 of business leads to increased expenditure. 
 
 628. Not necessarily, I think. — It is very difficult 
 to show ; it is rather like drawing the hairs out of a 
 horse's tail ; each hair you take does not make any 
 difference, but eventually the tail disappears. In the 
 same way one cannot go on doing more biisiness and 
 keeping the same staff. I do not say that with a very 
 small percentage of addition we could not do with the 
 same staff, but you vei-y soon get to an increase of 
 staff. 
 
 629. There may be some, but no serious adtlition up 
 to a certain point ; to a large extent the staff' could 
 be employed in doing moi-e work ? — Yes. 
 
 630. If that is the case is not it i-eally good business 
 to endeavour to attract additional traffic even at lower 
 rates ? Yo)i have instanced i-ailway companies ; that 
 is just exactly what railway companies do. Take their 
 week-end traffic, they arrange week-end excursions 
 to indiice traffic which would not otherwise come ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 631. Is it not well worth while to try to enlarge 
 this description of business, which is at present a very 
 small percentage of the whole at the cheaper week-end 
 rates ? — That is what we have been doing exactly, btit 
 we have done it to the extent we think wise and safe. 
 
 632. Cannot you experiment a little further with 
 it ? You could go tentatively and quietly and see the 
 result ? — We could do it, but if we are quite satisfied 
 in oui' own minds that it means a loss crf revenue, we 
 do not feel justified in doing it. Tliat is the whole 
 point. 
 
 633. On the other hand, if there is no loss and 
 if it induces additional traffic, should not the benefit 
 which it confers on Australia and New Zealand be 
 taken into ;iccount ? — -I come back to th;it. that we 
 are convinced, as I said to the Chairman, that whUe 
 no doubt if you cheapened rates you tap sources of 
 traffic which do not now contribute to our revenue, 
 you would not tap new sources to a sufficient amo-mt 
 to cover the. loss you would suffer on the existing 
 traffic. You cannot cheapen only the new traffic ; yon 
 must cheapen both the old and the new. 
 
 634. To such an extent as the old traffic falls into 
 the new, which may be only t^ a small extent ? — It 
 would not be to a small extent ; it would be, at all 
 events, to an appreciable extent. 
 
 635. I want to draw your attention to one matter 
 in your paper. You say : " The present load factor of 
 ■' the cable is about three million paying words per 
 '■ annum. The margin is more than enough. But a 
 '• substantial margin is a necessity. The service on a 
 " cable loaded to its full capacity v/ould be no more 
 " satisfactoiy than a passenger ti-ain service with every 
 " train loaded to its full capacity." On that point I 
 would just like to say that every train loaded to its 
 full capacity is just what i-ailway companies are striving 
 for, and by analogy I think your Cable Board ought to 
 try something in the same way. — I am not a i-ailway 
 director. 
 
 636. If every train on a railway was loaded to its 
 fidl capacity, there would be a booming business both 
 with goods and passengers. — With goods. I would 
 expect myself, if I were a railway director, and on my 
 line every passenger train was crammed full, that the 
 demands from the public for additional ti-ains would be 
 so great that I should li.ive to j ut them on. 
 
 637. Not if there was i-oon; n the trains. If they 
 were full, you woidd, for the surplus jjassengers supply 
 additional trains at a profit ? — \ ;;u would always have 
 the risk tliat somebody would conic- up to the ti-ain 
 and not be able to get into it. 
 
 638. My idea is that it is good business to use your 
 machine to its fullest paying capacity. — As a general 
 principle, I quite agree, but I do not tiink it would be 
 wise for IIS to go further than we ha ve done. I think, 
 after all, we have done a very great deal in the last 
 two years. We have introduced thi^ deferred traffic, 
 which has been a very great boon to the public ; we 
 have introduced the week-end cables ; we have reduced 
 the price twice within the last four years ; and we 
 have made no less than three reductions on press 
 messages, liecause we came do^vn from Is. Ut 9rf.. from 
 9d. to ~id., and now we liave also the deferred press 
 service, -«'hich is really so cheap that the Eastern 
 entirely decline to carry it. 
 
 639. Have not yoiu- receipts increased during those 
 years you have been making reductions ? — Yes. 
 
 640. Is not that an encom-agement ? Does it not 
 show that thos3 reductions have been wise reductions ? 
 — Certainly. All I am arguing is that I ventiu-e to 
 think j'ou picss for reductions which would not T>e 
 wise ; that is my point. 
 
 041. {Mr. Larimer.) Just one question. Do you 
 admit that your present rates are the most prf>fitable 
 you have yet charged ? — I do not know that I should 
 go BO far as that. You mean that our total revenue 
 has increased by these reduced i-ates ? 
 
 642. I am pi-oceeding on this particular ground, so 
 far as we have gathered from the figures at present, 
 that you are now, of recent yeai-s, gettiyg much nearer 
 to being self-supporting than you ever were before? 
 —Yes. 
 
 643. And that has been more marked since you 
 have made the reduction to the 3.<;. rate ? — We have 
 always had a 3s. rate. 
 
 644. Biit you were away uji at 9.<. Id. and 4s. 9(7., 
 and so on. — That was beftne the Pacific cable started. 
 
 645. I beg your pardon. You began in 1903, and 
 you have always ■ •* — We have always had ;i 3s. i-ate. 
 
 646. What I want to point out, if I may just call 
 your attention to the first sheet of figures, is this : 
 you had in 1896 the largest amount of business that 
 was ever obtained imder tbe 4s. 9d. rate ? — The total 
 tiaffic between Australasia and the United Kingdom 
 
 E 2
 
 3(1 
 
 noMIXlnNS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Primkose, k.c.b., c.S.i. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 was the highest in that year that it had ever been, yes ; 
 but you must remember that the Pacific cable did not 
 cxi-si then. 
 
 617. I had failed to notice that. So that your rate 
 ita« always l.eeu 3s. ? — Yes. 
 
 tJ48. \Miat I should like to call your atteutiim to 
 it thut while the 4.<. !'</. rate prevailed, there was an 
 extraordiuirj- irregularity in respect of the amount of 
 business done year by year ? — Yes. 
 
 649. But since the 3).-. rate was introduced, there 
 has been an almost, not quite, but an almost unbroken 
 continuity of improvement ; one year there was a 
 slight decrease, but every other year has shown an 
 increase on the previous year ? — Yes. 
 
 650. So that you have now about 70 per cent, more 
 business tliau in the largest year under the ■i.". ihi. rate ? 
 — If you take the Eiu-opean business alone it is under 
 •50 per cent. — IS per cent, increase. 
 
 6.51. I am comparing 3,426,000 words, the last line 
 in the column there, with 2.065,000 : that is an increase 
 of about 70 per cent. ? — Yes. but a veiy large amoimt 
 of that increase is due to the American traffic which 
 vou may say the Pacific cable created. 
 
 652." Could you throw any light on the curious 
 in-egularities which prevailed in the years prior to the 
 existence of the Pacific cable — sometimes higher and 
 sometimes lower ? — I imagine that was due to con- 
 ditions in Australia ; for instance, I forget when 
 the last drought in Australia was. but I think it was 
 somewhere about the Ijeginning of this century, and 
 there was the gi-eat bank crisis in the nineties. 
 
 6.i)3. But this is in 1896, and I wondered whether 
 there was any public matter which would account for 
 the large increase of business over the previous year, 
 and for the faUing off in the years which followed .' — I 
 do not think we can say so ; I suppose it was owing to 
 the general condition of trade. The wool trade, of 
 course, brings in a considei-able revenue, and the 
 fluctuations in that may account for a good deal. 
 
 654. As that existed before the Pacific Cable 
 Board, you cannot tell what were the proportions of 
 press messages to private messages in that year ? — No. 
 
 655. But as there hag been such a steady ami almost 
 unbroken increase in the business since the 3.s-. rate 
 was introduced, does it not suggest that there is 
 possibly a field for further development at lower 
 rates ? — No, I think not. liecause the lower you get 
 youi- i-ates. the moment you have got your i-ates down to 
 :i qiute moderate charge which really does not oppress 
 l>usiness men and does not reaUy check the amount of 
 cabling they do. then a further reduction does not 
 stimulate business so much as it is a gain t^> the 
 business men, and puts money into their pockets. 
 
 656. The people in Australia told us that with a 
 i-ate of half the present rate the cabling would be 
 enoi-mously increased. They suggested that instead of 
 keeping large stocks as they do just now they would 
 cable almost daily for the correct amount of stock and 
 so on ? — I cannot speak upon that, but I should venture 
 to doubt it. 
 
 657. At all events the fact remains that with the 
 pi-esent rate, which is so much lower than fonnerly. 
 there has been a steady increase of business year by 
 year which remains imbroken at the present moment ? 
 — I think you may say so. 
 
 658. There is one more question I want to ask — I 
 do not know whether you referred to it or not, but it 
 is with regard to the proposal for a State-owned cable 
 across the Atlantic : your own opinion is advei-se to 
 that ? — I do not think it is wanted, and I am quite sure 
 that it could not be rennmerative. 
 
 659. I simply wanted to ask this : Is your opposition 
 grounded upon commercial reasons only or on 
 strategical as well as commercial reiisons!-' — Purely 
 on commercial reasons. 
 
 660. (Sir Alfred ni'tcmmi.) I think you and I are 
 about contemporaries ? — I think we are. 
 
 661. Do you not think you are rather pessimistic 
 in your sentence here about cable rates. '• Cabling does 
 " not appeal to a univei-sal and almost insatiable 
 " appetite. Rather it represents a painful obligation, 
 " to be obeyed only under pressiu-e. To cheapen the 
 " process may diminish the distaste for it, but can 
 
 " never convert it into a pleasm-e '" ? — I certainly 
 speak for myself when I say that, but I should not 
 like to speak for anybody else. 
 
 662. Yon have not been in Australia yom-self ? 
 —No. 
 
 663. Certainly I was very much struck with the 
 wish the people seemed to have to cable more and 
 more — the pleasure they take in it. — They would give 
 us great pleasure if they would only ol)ey that impiUse. 
 
 664. But they are waiting for you to i-educe. Do 
 you not think you wiU tap a good many sourees by 
 reduction y — -Undoubtedly you would bring in a 
 certain amoimt of additional business, but as I said 
 before, it would not compensate yon for your losses on 
 the old business ; and, after all, that is the point we 
 have to consider. 1 qvdte agree that once we get to 
 the point of being self-supporting, no longer i-equiring 
 a subsidy and st) on, all those questions would come 
 directly within the range of pi-actical politics. 
 
 665. As regards increase of messages, I do not 
 think you told us that that meant increase of cost. 
 Supposing you have 3.000. OOO and afterwards get 
 4,000,000 words, does that addition represent any 
 large increase in cost ? — Undoubtedly our establishment 
 charges would distinctly go up. 
 
 666. Would they go up considerably or to a small 
 extent only ? — It is veiy difficult to say. but there is 
 one thing you will at once have to do ; the mere 
 .accountant's work in connection with these messages 
 is a big business. A careful record has to be kept of 
 every message, and it has to be counted and entered, 
 and a claim made against the other administi'ations. and 
 so on. You largely inci-ease the amount of clerical 
 business and then, if you increase the amount of the 
 operating, you have to increase your operatoi-s. 
 
 667. Still, not a veiy large percentage ? — No. 
 
 66S. Have the Board considered the position of 
 Canada with regard to the wireless system — the question 
 of sending messages by the Canadian Avii-eless ? — Across 
 Canada do you mean by wireless ? 
 
 669. Yes. — We have not taken that up actively yet. 
 because really our view is that wireless at present is in 
 such an uncertain position ; it is obviously going to 
 play a very important part, and sooner or later we shall 
 have to take it up. but tlie experience of other people 
 who have entered into conti-acts for wireless does not 
 encourage us ti) embark on a contract at this moment. 
 
 670. Perhaps yoti do not consider it essential at 
 present ? — No doubt it will have to be kept in view. 
 
 671. But not at present? — With the competing 
 systems it is so uncertain which is the best and so on. 
 but after all the Canadian Government have entered 
 into a contract ^vith one of the companies, the company 
 which has the Poulsen system, and we shall watch the 
 development of that very closely. 
 
 672. (Mr. Campbell.) I do not know whether I quite 
 understood yom- figures about the load of the pi-esent 
 working business of the cable. You say that a full 
 load woiUd amount to 7,000,000 paying words a vear y 
 —Yes. 
 
 673. Then you give the figm-es of the business 
 transacted now at 3,000,000 words a year? — Yes. 
 
 674. Are the 3,000,000 words paying words ? — 
 Those are 3,000,000 paying words of all kinds, in- 
 cluding press and deferred press and every message of 
 every sort and kind. In our last aitnual report up to 
 31st March last, the exact number is 2,670,575. Those 
 are all paying words in the different classes. When I 
 put it at 3,00(),0')0 I took a roxmd figui-e, and our total 
 ti-afiic is i-ather bigger this year than last. 
 
 675. You estimate that the cable could fulfil work, 
 allowing a proper margin, at the 5,000.{Klit words? — 
 Yes. 
 
 676. Practically, 3x)ur present business only amounts 
 to i>ne-half the pi-acticable load of the cable ? — Yes. 
 
 677. In yoiu- preci.-^ of evidence you say, •' To 
 •' increase the load factor by traffic that did not bring 
 ■■ in an average of at least Is. 6rf. per word for the full 
 " transit between Europe and Australasia would not 
 "■ be remunerative to the Pacific cable "" ; was not that 
 little book called •■ Via the Pacific" published by the 
 authority of the Cable Board ? — Yes.
 
 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCK. 
 
 Ol 
 
 ]2 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimrose, k.c.b., c.s.i. [Oversea Comiminications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 678. In that it is estimated that Is. M. is the lowest 
 remimei-dtive price ? — Yes, I think l.s. id. is putting it 
 veiy low, but perhaps I ought to have kept to the 
 Is. 4d., which is nearer. 
 
 679. Shall we read that U. tid. as U. id.?— Yes, 
 please. 
 
 680. You still have somewhere about 2,500,000 
 words to make up a reasonable and safe load for the 
 cable, and you cany press messages at 7Af7. a word. 
 Would it not pay you to load up the cable at a price 
 similar to that of press messages if you could get a 
 volume of business ? — I do not think it would, because 
 it costs us more than 7id. to caiTy the press messages 
 now. The press is not i-emunerative work. 
 
 681. The press business does not pay? — I do not 
 tliink so ; as long as you do not have too much of it. 
 you can fill up spare time with it, but if you have got 
 too much of it, it would not do to load up the cable to 
 any veiy great extent with traffic at 7\d. 
 
 682. This is the point which is woriying me : Do 
 you want any more press business — would it pay you 
 to take it? — If you ask me I do not, but I quite 
 recognise that it is desirable that the cable should be 
 used for the purpose of i>ress messages to as large an 
 extent as is really requii-ed in the interest of the public, 
 keeping them informed, and so on. But from the 
 point of view of our business I would much rather not 
 have the press message. 
 
 683. To that extent the qiiestion of public policy 
 does come in? — Yes. 
 
 684. And you woidd take uni-emunerative business 
 from the point of view of public policy ? — Yes, up to a 
 point. 
 
 685. One thing in connection with these press 
 messages : You give the figures here showing an in- 
 crease of business following the reduction given to the 
 press messages. You show an increase in words of 
 96 per cent., and an increase in revenue of 22 per cent., 
 but I think you told the Commission that in youi- 
 opinion the result of the reduction of press messages 
 was practically nil ; was not that so ? — The residt of 
 the first reduction to 9d. I consider was nil ; that is to 
 say, it was nil in the sense that it was nil in so far as 
 the increase of traffic was concerned. It took 4,00(lZ. 
 out of the cable's pockets and put them into the 
 pockets of the press, but so far as stimulating the 
 communication of news between this coimtry and the 
 Dominions was concerned it was nil. 
 
 686. This was the point that was appealing to me, 
 or rather that I did not quite understand. You got 
 an increase of 22 per cent, of revenue following on the 
 decrease of the rate for press messages. Were there 
 inci-eased expenses in connection with the working of 
 those messages amounting to 22 per cent, also? 1 am 
 taking it from that table you have given us of the 
 Australasian press traffic ? — You are taking the last 
 figure for the year 1912-13. 
 
 687. I am taking the figures at the bottom of the 
 return : " Total press traffic for the year before first 
 reduction," and so on. What I want to know is this : 
 you got a 22 per cent, increase on revenue ; did that 
 entail a 22 per cent, increase of working expenses in 
 connection with that increase of business ? — I could 
 not answer that questi(m, and it would be very difficult 
 to say. I can only say that during the last four or 
 five yeai's we certainly have been adding to our staff 
 of operators, and this increase of business for the 
 press would have been part of the cause. We have 
 also had increases in other work. Ithink, imdoubtedly, 
 some increase of charge has been created by that, but 
 by exactly what percentage I could not say. It would 
 not be so much as 22 per cent. 
 
 688. In connection with this return, •■ Statement 
 " showing four weeks Ordinary and Deferred Ordinary 
 •' International Traffic,' under " DefeiTed Ordinary," 
 you show us on the outward traffic there is 52 per 
 cent, of private business as against only 7 '27 per cent. 
 of private business on the ordinary traffic. Does not 
 that seem to show that by introducing the deferred 
 ordinary rate you are really creating, if not an insati- 
 able appetite, to use your own words, at any rate a 
 desire for a private use of the cable, which did not 
 
 have any means of satisfying itself before ? — As regards 
 the private part, yes. What we have done is, that we 
 have brought cabling within reach of a certain number 
 of people who before could not afford it, and that, of 
 course, is a great gain ; but, on the other hand, the 
 whole of our revenue from deferred ordinary ha.s 
 certainly not been gain. Some of it has. 
 
 689. I am not putting it as a question of gain ; I 
 only put it as to whether you are not creating a class 
 of business which did not exist before apparently, or 
 that did not exist to any appreciable extent. You 
 seem to be doing so ? — Yes. 
 
 690. Do you not think that with fui-ther reductions, 
 perhaps not so great as that you give to press messages, 
 but with a reasonable reduction below Is. 6d., that 
 demand would be very widely increased in a country 
 like Australia, which is so far separated from this 
 country by ordinary mails ? — I do not myself believe 
 that there is any veiy large source of supply, so to 
 speak, to be tapped, but that there is a certain soiu'ce 
 of supply is undoubtedly the case. The whole question 
 with us is this — in connection with any proposal that 
 is put before us of that kind, we recognise it would lie 
 desii'able to bring cabling within the reach of as many 
 people as possible provided we can do so without 
 making the public pay for it. That is what it comes 
 to. Aiiythiug we do which involves loss of revenue 
 means this, that the taxpayers of tliis countiy and of 
 the different Dominions have to make up the loss. 
 We want to avoid that. We feel we are bound to 
 avoid doing anything whicli in our opinion would have 
 that effect. 
 
 691. Quite so. l)ut your little book " Via the 
 Pacific " shows that that loss is a very rapidly 
 decreasing one ; with all your reductions of the last 
 few years you are approaching the point where the 
 cable is becoming, in spite of the i-eductions you make, 
 and in spite of unremunerative press business, a paying 
 proposition ? — Yes. 
 
 692. In connection with the talked-of Atlantic 
 cable, I see you give the estimated loss on the cable at 
 25,000,'. a year for the Atlantic portion of it. The 
 Post Office gave us a loss of 2(1.000?. a year on present 
 figures. Would your figures be later or earlier than 
 theirs ? — My figures were taken two years ago. I am 
 not sure when the Post Office estimate was made. I 
 ought to say that it is extremely difficult to make any 
 veiy definite estimate until you know exactly what is 
 meant. I have never really quite made out how far 
 those who advocated the Atlantic cable proposed it 
 should be used for Canadian business as well as for 
 Australasian business. I think our estimate was based 
 on the suj^position that it was confined to Australasian 
 business. 
 
 693. That estimate of yours made two years ago 
 of a loss of 25,0007. is made on the assumption, I 
 understand, that only the business passing over the 
 Pacific cable would pass over the Atlantic cable ? — Yes. 
 
 694. That does not allow for any business coming 
 from North America over the proposed new Atlantic 
 cable at all ? — No, I do not think it did, if I remember 
 right. 
 
 695. So far the matter is clear now. You have not 
 any figures showing on your latest statistics of the 
 business of the Pacific cable, what would be the loss 
 on the Atlantic cable made up as for the last yeai\ 
 It would be less I suppose than 25,0007. now * — If the 
 cable was confined to Australasia ? 
 
 696. No. You have estimated a loss of 25,0007. 
 per amium on the Atlantic calile based on figures in 
 connection with the P,-icific cable of two years a;'o * 
 —Yes. 
 
 697. Supposing you were to take yom- latest figures 
 of the Pacific cable, about what would that loss show 
 now ? — I do not think it would make veiy much 
 difference, because, as a matter of fact, our increase of 
 business is very largely on business that would not 
 come across the Atlantic cable. You see a ve:y 
 large proportion of our revenue is on American business. 
 Our increase is greater on the American business than 
 it is on the Eui'opean business. 
 
 698. You do not think there would be any gi-eat 
 reduction of those figures if the latest figures of the 
 
 E 3
 
 38 
 
 DOMINIONS BOYAI. COMMISSION 
 
 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimbose, k.C.b., c.s.i. [Ovenea Communications ,■ Post and Telegraph. 
 
 Pacific cable were taken ? — I do not tbiaik it would 
 make veiy much difference. 
 
 aw. In coiuiection with the deferred telegrams and 
 week-end letters to Australasia, so far as you bare gone 
 on both of those lines they show. I think, a very heavy 
 increase since they began month by month. According 
 to the Postmaster-Generars Report here I see that 
 much use has been made of the defen-ed service, 
 showing an increase since the first mouth of the senice 
 of 120 per cent. I suppose we niaj- take those tigiu-es 
 ascon-ect? — Yes. Undoubtedly the deferred tends to 
 increase, and I have no doubt the week-eud cable lettei-s 
 will. too. as they go on. 
 
 700. Both those lines are showing a very promising 
 increase in business ? — Yes. 
 
 701. And both of them are remunerative to the 
 cable, are they? — I should doubt whether the week-end 
 cable letters were very remunerative. 
 
 702. Yo\i do not think the week-end cable is 
 remunerative ? — No, I do not think Qd. a word, if you 
 really jiut it to the test, would be, except for the pur- 
 poses of tilling up spare time. 
 
 703. But you have 2,-500.000 words to fill up on 
 the cable wliich might be tilled up by some of those 
 messages •> — Yes. 
 
 704. (Chairman.) Canyon tell us how you distribute 
 yom- traffic between the Western Union and the Com- 
 mercial Cable Company ? — Fa-om this side each com- 
 pany gets what traffic it collects for itself; they have 
 theu- ovm offices and so on. Taking messages that are 
 handed in at a post office, if they are routed by a 
 pai-ticular company, they are handed to that company ; 
 they have to go, but if they are not routed they are 
 divided equally between the two. Then coming home 
 we try to divide as equally as we can between the 
 Commercial Cable Company and the associated com- 
 panies. 
 
 70-5. If you had a large accession of traffie across- 
 the Pacitic, would it improve your pusitiou for olitaining 
 a lower i-ate across the Atlantic ? — No. I do not 
 thiuk it would — you will probably hear that from the 
 Atlantic people; but from what I leam from them, 
 certainly the Wesfcem Union liave not the least wish to 
 reduce rates. I tliink they feel thej' have gone a little 
 too far ; if they had to begin again, they perhaps would 
 not give so mxich as they have given for the last year 
 or two. and for the moment I do not tliink they see 
 theu- way to go further. The Atlantic cables are in 
 this position, that they have enormous press>u-e for a 
 few hours every day. aud then the rest of the time it 
 is different. They have f.u- more cables across the 
 Atlantic than are really necessary to carry on the 
 business, if it was not that the most of the business 
 
 has to go between 2 o'clock in the afternoon aud 
 7 o'clock in the evening. 
 
 706. You are capable of giving them business at 
 their non-lnisy times ? — Yes. we could be useful to 
 them in that way. .• ■ ■ i 
 
 707. If you had a considerable accession of that 
 busines.-i to fill up your bad moments, ytiur non-peak 
 loads. wi_)UJd there l)e any possibility c>f a lower rate i* — 
 I thiuk they ai'e hampered to some extent by the law 
 of their own country, which might make it difficult. 
 
 7ti8. About jtreferential rates, do you mean ? — Yes. 
 the}' would very soon come up against some daugers 
 there if they were t-o do much. 
 
 7oit. Ytiu appear to be in a peculiarly gi>od position 
 with them in that you can fill up their troughs i* — Ye.s. 
 I tliink our business ought to be rather useful to them. 
 
 710. (Mr. Garnetf.) I think. Sir Henry, you said 
 that your service being night and day, and not 
 synchronising between here and Amstimlia, was more 
 or less cimtiuuous? — Yes. 
 
 711. If that is so, is not the Pacific cable in a Ixitter 
 position for dealing with a large accession of ti-affic 
 considering that night and day do not sjTichronise than 
 it would he supposing night and day did synchronise 
 and you had to rush it all into one very short period .'' 
 I put the question for this reason, to ask you whether 
 you cannot deal with that increased ti-affic, so to speak, 
 Avithout a large increase iu ytmr staff? — Well, it is 
 quite true that the difference iu time affects us in the 
 way you have described ; still, if you take the traffic 
 from Australia our ti-affic is not on that account 
 distributed evenly over the 24 hours. Fi-om the 
 Austi-alian end we have not a great deal of time to get 
 things in. and we have to do it all in about a couple 
 of houi's. If you take the end of the business day in 
 Sydney, say 5 o'clock, that is 7 o'clock in the morning in 
 London, and a cable sent off' from Sydney at 5 o'clock 
 in the aftenn)on of Monday thej' want delivei-ed in the 
 London office before 10 a.m. of the same day, or even 
 before !', if they can. so that you see the whole of that 
 business is crammed into two or three houi-s. From this 
 end we have nioi-e leisui-e because, instead of the differ- 
 ence Ijeing 10 hours, it is 14. so for a mess-age sent oft" at 
 the end of the day Ave have four or five houi-s in which 
 we could send it over the wires, and yet be in good time 
 for the ojiening of the office in Sydney. Still, there 
 are perioils of pressure and periods of slackness. 
 
 712. Taking it altogether, that does give you an 
 advantage as compared with a cable which is working 
 only between countries where night and day syuchi-onise ? 
 — Certainly. 
 
 713. The increase of staff would not be so gi^eat iu 
 yours as it might be in other cases ? — Yes, that is so. ■ 
 
 Thursday, 13th November 1913. 
 
 Mr. Stanley J. GodDAKD. European Representative of the Western Union Tek-gi-aph Company, 
 
 called and examined. 
 
 714. {Cliairman.) Youarethe Eiu"opean repi-esenta- 
 tive of the Westei-n Union Telegi-aph Company? — 
 I am. 
 
 71."). AViU you kindly read the evidence you have 
 been good enough to prepare ? — Yes. {The i/'itncsn read 
 the folloiciiig statement : — ) 
 
 I have been nominated by the Western Union 
 Tcilegi-aph Conipanj' to tender its views on tlie parti- 
 cular points on which it is miderstood the Commission 
 desires information. 
 
 The first of these, I imdei-stand. refers to the 
 possibility of effecting a reduction of the ordinary 
 rate for Australasian messages across the Atlantic : 
 and the second, to the effect which a large access 
 of Australasian traffic, such as it is suggested would 
 be caused if a considerable reduction were arranged in 
 the Pacific Cable Board's i-ates. would have in respect 
 of such reductions. 
 
 I would first of all de.siic to make it clear to the 
 Commission that the policj' of the Western Unitm 
 Telegraph Company is to give to the public the 
 cheapest telegi-aph rates compatible with business 
 jninciples with the view of extending the use of the 
 service as widely as possible, as it believes that the 
 best results can be obtained l>y a greatly extended use 
 of the cable service: and as evidence of this belief 
 I may point out that it was the pioneer of " week-end " 
 and '• night cable " letters in connection with its cable 
 system to America. 
 
 It is. however, of opinion that under the existing 
 conditions of the art of ocean telegraphy the present 
 tharge for full-rate telegrams, so far as the Atlantic 
 jiortion of the transit is concerned, cannot be reduced, 
 having regard to the expense incurred iu carrying on 
 an express ser\-ice such as that given, and of main- 
 taining, repairing, and providing for the depreciation
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 13 Ntnemher 1913.] 
 
 Mr. S. Ji GoDDAED. [Oversea Coinmunicatiotis : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 of the very expensive cables, cable stations, and tele- 
 graph equipment that are necessary in connection with 
 the service, and also to the cost incurred in providing, 
 from time to time, imj^roved apparatus, and in reseai'cli 
 work in connection with such improvements. It does 
 not anticipate that any increase in the amount of 
 traffic which it might share with the Pacific Cable 
 Board would have the effect of enabling it to reduce 
 the .Transatlantic portion of the rate. The full-rate 
 service is an expensive one to operate, a very large 
 proportion of the words are in difficult codes in which 
 mistakes are easily made, and the corrections (which 
 are made without cost to the public) are costly. 
 
 As the Commission is no doubt aware, the " week- 
 end letter " service is now in operation between this 
 country and Australasia. It was introduced on the 
 1st January 1913, so that up to the present we only 
 have the results of some nine months' working ; and 
 it is yet full early to gauge what the development of 
 the service is likely to be when the facility is more 
 widely known than it is at present ; and the extent 
 to which it is likely to encroach on the full-rate 
 sei-vice. 
 
 It is quite possible that there may be. in the near 
 future, a very considerable development of this traffic ; 
 but if it is found that some further facilities are 
 necessary in order to make the ser\'ice more popular, 
 it might be po.ssible to airange for earlier deliveries at 
 the terminal ends, and the Western Union Telegraph 
 Company would be prepared, so far as it.s portion 
 of the transit is concerned, to facilitate such an 
 arrangement. 
 
 It ivould also be prepared, so far as it is concerned, 
 to consider the introduction of a " night cable " letter 
 service to Australasia, on similar lines to -the service 
 which exists between this country and America, if 
 suitable aiTangements can be made ; the cable letter 
 to be delivei-ed at destination, say, on the second day 
 after handing in. 
 
 It is understood that the Commission is desirous 
 of knowing whether the capacity of the company's 
 Atlantic caliles is such as to enable a large access of 
 business (such as might be expected from the reduction 
 of the Australasian traffic) to be dealt with. In this 
 connection, I woidd say that the cables at present 
 being operated by the Western Union have a, con- 
 siderable unused capacity, and that this imused 
 capacity is greatest at the hours when deferred 
 week-end and night cable letter services would lie 
 dealt with. 
 
 In view of change.s and improvements which my 
 company has now in hand, and which when completed 
 will still further iucrea.^e the capacity of its caldes, it 
 has no fear but that it will, at all times, be able to 
 satisfactorily handle any increase of traffic which may 
 develop. 
 
 710. How many cables acros.s the Atlantic do you 
 operate ? — Eight. 
 
 717. How many are there altogether? — There are 
 8 of om-s ; ■") of the Commercial Cable Company ; 2 of 
 the German Atlantic company, which rmi.s from 
 America to Emden ; and 2 of the French comjjany, 
 from Brest to America. 
 
 718. That makes a total of 17 ? — I take it from 
 you ; I think it is. 
 
 719. And the full capacity of those cables is more 
 than sufficient to deal with the present ti-affic Y — The 
 full capacity is more than sufficient to deal with the 
 present traffic, I shoidd think. I can only speak, of 
 course, with reference to the cables we operate our- 
 selves, and with regard to that 1 sho\ild like just to 
 make this remark if the Commission would let me. 
 When you are talking about the capacity of a caljle 
 you have to be very careful as to what you mean. 1 
 heard some evidence Ijeing given yesterday before tliis 
 Commission, and I was not quite sure when that point 
 was being dealt with what the capacity of the Pacific 
 cable was — what Sir Heni-y Primrose actually meant. 
 1 want to make my position quite cleai' with reference 
 to that. The capacity may be the actual capacity of 
 the cable for candying ordinary commercial messages 
 on condition that those messages are handed in seiiatim 
 and in equal quantities throughout the whole 24 hours. 
 
 If that is what you mean by the capacity, you never 
 get that condition in actual life, because the telegrams 
 and messages come at infrequent inteiwals ; you get busy 
 hours and rush hoiu-s and you get very slack hours. 
 What I mean when I talk about the capacity of the 
 Western Union Telegraph cables is this — that at the 
 ])eak of the load I have always got sufficient space to 
 carry more business if necessary. 
 
 720. Does that mean that even in the nish houi-s 
 you have got capacity over and above the traffic you 
 get ? — That is what I mean. 
 
 721. Even in the peak hours ? — In the rush hoiu's 
 I have got capacity, over and above the traffic I get. to 
 allow a margin for miffjreseen contingencies. 
 
 722. A fortiori in the non-rush hours? — A much 
 stronger case ; I have got much more capacity then. 
 
 723. Could you tell the Commission this : Dividing 
 the 24 hours into four periods of six hours, what 
 approximately is your load factor in each of these 
 periods ; 1 do not want to tie you down to an exact 
 figm-e, but an approximation ? — That is i-ather a difficult 
 question to answer, because 1 think that is driving me 
 back into giving what I should call a " mean capacity" — 
 a "mean" flow of traffic, and that might be very mis- 
 leading. Supposing I were to say that my capacity 
 during the 21 hours was only Ijeing used to the extent of 
 50 per cent. — and that may be r(jughly right — it need not 
 necessarily convey a right impressi(in to the Commission 
 because during the jieak of my load 1 may be getting 
 such a lot of traffic that 1 cannot handle it properly. 
 1 think probably the best way for me to put it will be 
 like this, if I say we keep a very constant watch on our 
 traffic and see how it is going at the top peak load, and 
 we are always lookmg ahead, so that if we see. for 
 instance, that we ai'e getting within, say, 20 per cent, 
 (using that as a formula) of our actual capacity we 
 have then to begin to consider how we are going to 
 increase our cables to can-y a still further load. We can 
 increase this capacity by putting magnifiers on the lines 
 which allow a larger amount of traffic to pass over the 
 cables, or we can again (as we have in some cases done) 
 increase it by shortening the spans of the cables, 
 l>ecause the shorter the span, the greater the rapidity 
 with which you can send your messages. 
 
 724. I understand that to be one preoccupation : 
 another of your preoccupations is probably to fill up 
 your non-rush hours ? — That is one of the problems 
 we have had to set ourselves to. 
 
 72.J. Then you have a large unused capacity in the 
 non-i-ush hours, and it pays you to take traffic at a 
 lower rate ? — We take traffic at low rates which we do 
 not have to handle immediately, at a price which we 
 hope will pay for the actual handling of the ti-affic and 
 allow something over to lie put towards depreciation. 
 interest, and that kind of charge. 
 
 726. Have you a large unusued capacity for that 
 non-urgent traffic ? — A very considerable unused 
 capacity. 
 
 727. Which you are anxious to fiU up ? — That 
 is so. 
 
 728. If one of your clients came to you and said 
 •• We can give you another 1,000.000 words a year or 
 " another 2.000,000 words a year of non-urgent 
 •■ traffic," would it answer your purpose, and would 
 you be able to take that at an exceptional rate ? — I do 
 not think we should be able to take it at any lower 
 rates. Are you talking of Australasian business, or of 
 American business ? 
 
 729. Of Australasian. — The Australasian business 
 is only about 2 per cent, of our total traffic ; so that 
 if you were to increase the Australasian portion of 
 oiu- business, if you were to doulile it, that is increase 
 it by 100 per cent., it does not make a very bio- 
 impression on our total traffic at all. 
 
 730. I am talking of a possible addition in the 
 Australian traffic of l.OOO.OdOor 2,000,000 words a year, 
 which I xniderstand you could easily handle, of non- 
 urgent tiaffic ? — Yes. 
 
 731. On what terms would it pay you to take that 
 traffic ? — At the present moment, as I have said 
 in my proof, we are in this position. These new 
 rates have only recently been started to America. 
 The cheap American rates came into force at the 
 
 E 4
 
 40 
 
 DOMINIONS IJOYAL COMMISSION 
 
 13 Novetnber 1913.] 
 
 Mr. S. J. GODDAJaD. [^Oversea Co-mmunicatidns : Post a)id Telegraph. 
 
 beguming of 1912 ; and, as you know, the newest 
 rates to Australasia came into force on the 1st January 
 of the cun-ent year. Now, telegraphic traific is a 
 traffic that develoi)8 very slowly, and we do not q\\\tc 
 know where the new rates are going tii lead us. "We 
 know this, that month by month the new rates have 
 been eating into ovir full-rate tariff traffic, and we have 
 not got what we might call a law as to how far that 
 eating-up process is to continue, and at the present 
 moment we should not be prepared to decrease the full 
 rate, but the two proposals I have put forward in my 
 pi'oof seem to us to be as far a-s we (looking at the 
 Atlantic cable portion only) would Vie prepared to go at 
 the present time until we have further informatitm. 
 and have had fiu-ther experience of the i-ates in force 
 at the present moment. 
 
 732. The point on whi'.'h you are not sure is how 
 far the cheap-rate traffic is a divei'sion from the i>ld 
 full i-ate and how far it is new ti'affic : is not that so? 
 —That is so. 
 
 733. And that you are not j-et able to tell !- — That 
 we ai-e not able to tell. 
 
 734. I want to put this suppositious case : Suppose 
 you have an opportunity of olitaining new traffic, not 
 a diversion of the old. from Australia to the extent of 
 I.KOO.IXIO words or 2.00ll.()(t0 words a year, at Avhat 
 rate would it jiay you to take it ? — The position we are 
 in, I think, is this, that if you could give us traffic to 
 the extent of 2.tH)0,<H)0 words a ye;U', we ^vill say to 
 Australia, we will l:>e prepared to cany it as far as the 
 West Coast of Ameinca for the same price that we 
 would cari"y a message from London to the Pacific 
 Coast. We now have a night -letter service from 
 London to British Columbia, and we will be piepared. 
 so far as the Australasian traffic is coneei-ned. to treat 
 the Pacific Cable Board as an ordinary member of the 
 public at British Columbia, and to hand over a message 
 at the same charge we would make to an ordinary 
 member of the public. 
 
 73-5. But there is the fact that they have to levy a 
 further charge. Tour section is only a portion of the 
 total transit y — Yes. 
 
 736. Can you not ti-eat them better than the 
 ordinarj' pulilic ? — We might be getting into difficulties 
 with the American Inter-State Commerce Laws. 
 
 737. Apart from legal i-estrietions, what I want to 
 get at is what it would pay you to do ? — We do not 
 think it would pay us to caiTy any service cheaper 
 than we are carrying the American traffic foi\ 
 
 738. That is independently of any restrictions which 
 the law may impose ? — Absolutely. 
 
 739. The two facilities j-ou indicate here as being 
 proper to give are. tii-st of all, means for making the 
 present defeiTed traffic and week-end traffic moie 
 popular ? — Yes. 
 
 740. That means. I suppose, what is called the 
 single rate, does it nut. making the week-end traffic 
 delivei-able by telegram, and including all kinds of 
 sei-vices ? — I wa.s not going quite so far as that, sir. 
 What I meant was this, that at the present moment 
 the telegi'am which is handed in here at or before 
 midnight on the Satiu-daj' should be, according to my 
 proposal, deliverable on the Monday instead of on the 
 Tuesday as at present. 
 
 741. Deliverable by telegraph, or does that not 
 concern you ? — That does not concern me ; that is a 
 thing for the Pacific Board. I am only dealing, and 
 I want to make that clear, with my Atlantic section, 
 to, in some cases, as far as the Pacific coast. It would 
 be a reduction of 24 ho\irs on the present delay. 
 
 742. That is to say. it would be a 36 hours' delivery 
 i nstead of (io? -That' is so. 
 
 743. The second point on which you would be 
 prepared tt) meet the public would be to consider the 
 introduction of a night cable lettei- sei'vice to Australia ■ 
 — Yes. im similar lines to the service between tliis 
 counti-y and America. 
 
 744. Just tell us what that would be to Austi-alia ? 
 ^I have not developed the tariif because that is the 
 kind of thing I have to consult my partners, the Pacific 
 Cable Board, about. What we should be prepared to 
 do, or rather what we should pi-opose, would be this, 
 that a telegram handed in on Monday wotUd be 
 
 delivered in Austi-alasia on the Wednesday, that is the 
 thu'd day, if you include all of them. We at present 
 take telegi-ams in this country for America, and they 
 are handed in to-day and delivered to-morrow, and go 
 at the slack hoiirs of the night. We call it a night 
 cable service. 
 
 74."). That goes at what percentage of full rates? — 
 One-lifth. or between one-fifth and one-sixth. 
 
 74ti. That facility you would be prepared to ext«nd 
 to Australian traffic ? — So far as the Western Union 
 is concerned, yes. I might put it again, if you will 
 permit me to do so. I will put it that we wdll be 
 prepared to extend the present i-ates that we have 
 from England or Great Britain to British Columbia, 
 where this service already exists, to Australasia. 
 
 747. I should have thought that in the ease of 
 Australian traffic you could have given greater facilities 
 to Australia than to the terminal of British Columbia. 
 Your rate to British Cohunliia includes two terminal 
 rates ? — I think not. We send a message here from 
 London, we ■\vill sa}-, and it has to go over the land 
 lines to the calile. and it is re-transmitted at the cable 
 station, and it is I'e-transmitted at some s\ibsidiai-y 
 stations on the way and then Iws to work its way, being 
 repeated once or twice right across the continent of 
 America. The cost to us is exactly the same whether 
 the recipient of the message is John Jones in British 
 Columbia, or whether it is the Canadian Pacific Board 
 there. 
 
 748. In your memorandum you make a point of the 
 difficulty of ti-ansmitting composed cipher words ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 749. Do you diffei-entiate lietween ciphei- words and 
 dictionary words ? — I do not think that it makes very 
 much difference in the long rim. Of com-se. some of 
 the codes that are being composed now are most 
 awfully diffic\ilt. According to the International 
 Regulations the words should be pronounceable, luit the 
 competition and one thing and another has made the 
 pronoimceability of words take an extraordinary aspect, 
 and words that are much woi'se to an Englishman 
 than any Welsh words, for instance, are put into a 
 code and are said to be pronounceable. Of course, 
 when you get words with perhaps thi'ee " Is " and a " y "' 
 together in a code word you are extremely apt, when 
 using the telegi^aphic signals which are used for cables, 
 to get mistakes. That means tliat when the message 
 an-ives at its destination it cannot be vmderstood, and 
 we have to telegraph back right away along the line to 
 the place of origin to find out where the mistake is and 
 I'e-transmit it con-ectly. That is part of the charge 
 and that is one of the expenses of the code. 
 
 7-50. That does not leiid you to advocate the inser- 
 tion between the cipher word on the one hand and the 
 plain language message on the other, the intermediate 
 dictionai-y cipher? — No, I shoidd not recommend that. 
 
 7.51. What economy of words does cipher give? 
 We have had evidence to the effect that it was seven 
 words, or six words, or five words in one ? — I should say 
 in some codes it is very much greater than that. I 
 was looking at a code, which was pi-oduced by a 
 rreuchmau, the other day and he had gone as far as 
 this ; that he was ciphering ciphers. 
 
 752. That is a double dictionary? — Yes; say that 
 he had got a word that in one cipher would be a 
 sentence of ten words, then he had ciphered that again 
 so that the second cipher represented, perhaps, ten of 
 these words, each of which repi-esented seven wt>rds in 
 the first instance ; so that you might get 7*1 words 
 repi-esented by one cipher wonl. The possibilities of 
 that are almost infinite. 
 
 753. You think the estimate of six words for one 
 is rather under than over the mark? — Considerablj' 
 too low. 
 
 7.">4. In your non-urgent service do yon allow 
 ciphei-s ? — No, we allow no cipher except on the full 
 rate tariff. 
 
 755. So that even on your reduced scale the 
 ordinary sender of a plain-language message is paying 
 a much higher rate than the ciphei-er ? — He is paying 
 a much higher i-ate in a sense, yes. 
 
 75C. That is to say he pays half the i-ate, but he 
 sends a sixth, or less than a sixth, of the amount ? —
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 41 
 
 13 November 1913.] 
 
 Mr. S. J. Ctdddard. [Overeea CmitmiMifntioiin : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 That may be so ; for instauce, two cipher words might 
 possibly convey a hundred words. 
 
 757. Then the uuciphered message would be paying 
 25 times the rate of the ciphered.'' — Yes. 
 
 758. Tou also accentuate in one of your sentences 
 " under the existing conditions of the art " : Am I right 
 in taking that to imply that you expect rapid develop- 
 ment and improvement ? — I do not know that I should 
 go (juite so far as that, but I think I should be ([uite 
 right in saying this, that we are constantly gettmg 
 impi'ovements in telegraj)hic instruments and not only 
 ■ in the instruments on the stations, but in apparatus 
 such as this magnifier I was just speaking about. There 
 are several of them. 
 
 759. What does the magnifier do ? — The magnifier 
 puts additional force into the cable, if I may say so, so 
 that the signals come out very much more clearly at 
 the other end and can consequently be transmitted 
 much more rapidly. 
 
 760. {Mr. Loriiner.) Of the 3s. a word which is paid 
 for messages between the Far East and England sent 
 by the Pacific calile you get lOf/., I think ? — I do not 
 quite understand what you mean liy the Far East ; we 
 deal with the West all the time. 
 
 7<il. The American cables get lOA, do they not-' — 
 I have not got the make-up here, but I believe that 
 is so. 
 
 762. I gather from your statement that is at 
 present your iiTeducible minimum ? — -Tes. 
 
 7t)3. I think I remember — it is a long time ago — 
 that messages were cabled between England and 
 New York at Hd. a word? — The defeiTed messages ? 
 
 764. No. — Some time ago that was — yes. 
 
 765. A good many years ago H — Yes. 
 
 766. It was so long ago that I do not remember 
 the details, but I suppose it was the result of some 
 competition between comjianies? — It was the result of 
 competition, yes. 
 
 767. How did that work out financially ? — It was a 
 dead loss, they had to put the rates up. 
 
 7t>8. That really was a loss ? — It was really a loss. 
 They put up the rate ; after tlie iid. tariff I think the 
 rate was as high as ^2s. again, and then it was reduced 
 to Is. !^(?., and then it was finally reduced from l.s-. 8d. 
 to Is. 
 
 769. How long has it been Ls. •' — I tliink it has lieen 
 l.f. since July 188S. 
 
 776. For 25 years ? — ^Yes. 
 
 771. Do you publish accounts? — We do; the 
 Western Union does, but the Western Union accounts, 
 so far as the cable system is concerned, do not show 
 the cable system separately from the land line system. 
 We are the biggest telegi-aphic concern in the world 
 and we have something like 148,000 employees. 
 
 772. I asked whether you published accounts because 
 I wanted to know (I do not want to pry into things 
 which do not concern me) if you pubUsh yom- accoimts, 
 whether this Is. lute pays you very well? — You have to 
 take this into consideration, I think : I cannot give you 
 any accounts of the Western Union showing the profits 
 derived from the cable system alone, but the present 
 arrangements have only been going on -since 1911. 
 
 773. I do not know that I follow you. What have 
 you in addition to your cable system ? — Nearly the 
 whole of the land lines of America. We carry 8o per 
 cent, of the internal traffic of America. 
 
 774. I was referi'ing to the profits on telegi'aphy. 
 You say you cannot tell us what the relation of your 
 profit is to your capital ? — I do not quite know whether 
 I have made it clear to you. The Western Union 
 Company is the telegraphic authority in tlie United 
 States ivr about 80 pier cent, of the whole of the land- 
 lines system of telegraphy ; the accounts of the Western 
 Union are published as one entity, so that the cable 
 system is not divided from the land-line system. The 
 whole of the capital is shown together, and I can show 
 you 
 
 775. And the whole of the profits shov^^l together? 
 —Yes. 
 
 776. So that while you might be making a huge 
 profit on your land lines and a big loss on your cables 
 or the reverse, there is nothing in yom- accoiuits to 
 show tliat ? — That is so. 
 
 H josiiu 
 
 777. I asked that question because, if you had piib- 
 lished accounts, I thought I should like to know to 
 what extent your profits would apparently admit of a 
 reduction on this charge ? — I think I can help j'ou to 
 a certain extent upon that, because the two companies 
 whose cables we lease tii work acrtiss the Atlantic, 
 that is, the cables of the Anglo-American Telegraph 
 Company and the Direct United States, publish their 
 accounts year by year, and they only gave up the 
 working of those cables to ns in 1911. Now. the 
 Anglo- American Telegraph Company pulilished its 
 accounts, and in 1911, which was the last year it was 
 working, it paid 3ff per cent, on its ordinary. 6 per 
 cent, on its prefei-red, and lA per cent, on its defen-ed. 
 
 778. Have you three classes of stock there ? — Yes, 
 the Anglo-American had three classes of stock. 
 
 779. I thought the prefen-ed and defen-ed woidd be 
 the ordinary divided ? — No. they have got a curious 
 arrangement. They had to raise money in the old 
 days under difficult circiunstances. and they have got 
 a preferred stock which stands out pai-amount. 
 
 780. That does not appear to be a very extravagant 
 dividend ? — No. The Direct Company paid a 4 per 
 cent, dividend with a bonus of 1 jjei cent., makuig 5. 
 
 781. Will you forgive me for asking — do I follow 
 that these stocks represent cash paid down by share- 
 holders, or is there any water in them ? — I do not quite 
 know. It is always a difficult thing to know what is 
 meant by water and what is meant Ijy whiskey. I do 
 not know how far these acc(junts go back, but the 
 original Anglo - American Telegraph Company was 
 formed somewhere about 187tl. and I dn not know of 
 my own knowledge or even Ijy hearsay liow its capital 
 accounts were built up, but I should imagine there 
 must be a certain amount of preliminaiy expenses and 
 that kind of thing included in them 
 
 782. Just another question, yujjpose it were [los- 
 sible to an-auge with you for a substantial reduction 
 on the Pacific Cable messages, which largely increased 
 the business carried over your lines, could you take 
 50 per cent, (jr 100 per cent, of the Pacific messages 
 without inconvenience ? — Oh, yes, without the le:ist 
 inconvenience and without inci-easing our facilities for 
 handling. 
 
 783. Without increasing your staff ? — Not without 
 increasing our staff — I mean without increasing our 
 cable facilities. 
 
 784. So that the initial cost would be very trifling ? 
 — It is a large proportion of the operating cost, because, 
 of com-se, one man can only deal ^vith so many woi'ds 
 an houi', and if you are going to give me double the 
 number of words per hour I have to have two men to 
 do it. 
 
 785. So that all you would require to pay extra 
 woid<l be the operators ? — The operators and the 
 attendant expenses. You have to provide more lighting 
 if you increase your operators, and so on. 
 
 786. So that double the present Pacific business at 
 the same rates would be very lucrative to you ? — No, I 
 do not think it would be very lucrative ; it would I)e 
 fairly lucrative if you were to double the full rate 
 tariff. 
 
 787. What is the difference ? It is the difference 
 between 10(Z. and Is., is it not ? — No. 
 
 788. I am thinking of your o«'n share of the' 3*., 
 you know ? — We only get ihd. for the week-end cable. 
 
 789. I am speaking of general business. I aui 
 speaking of the division of the 3s., and I understand 
 that j'ou or the other companies, the land lines in tlie 
 United States, get lOi/. ?— Yes. 
 
 790. Is not that as good a rate as you get for your 
 inland messages ? — For my messages from here to 
 America ? 
 
 791. Throughout Americii. — That rate is a very 
 good rate ; I have no favilt to find with that. 
 
 792. Does it not follow, then, if you had a very 
 large accession of that business without a proportionate 
 increase of expenses it would be quite lucrative ? — If 
 we could get it we would be very pleased to. 
 
 793. We are trying to reduce the Pacific rate \vith a 
 view to mcrease, doulile or perhaps treble, the amount 
 of matter sent across ; but while you would be very 
 
 F
 
 42 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAT, COMMISSION : 
 
 13 Noremher 1913.] 
 
 Mr. S. J. GrODD.\RD. [Oversea Comnuuiieations : Post and Telegraph . 
 
 clad to cdiTv that, you cannot help tis to cheapen it ? — 
 1 should be" very pleased if you could get it. because if 
 you can get it. when you have got it. or anywhere near 
 it. I v/ill l)e very plea.sed to confer with you on the 
 subject. 1 am very sceptical ; you have to get it iii-st. 
 
 "94. Thei-e is only one other question I want tn ask 
 you, and it doe.s not concern you more than any t>thfr 
 company. In li.<!tening to all this evidence which we 
 have hail both here and in Australia with reference to 
 the cost of cables, 1 have felt this, that people who use 
 codes generally have their- codes made up of words of 
 ten letters as near as possible so as to get a.s much as 
 possible in it ? — Yes. 
 
 79.J. But people Avho send private messages and 
 have no opportunity of using a code have to use just 
 such words as are necessaiy in their message, and they 
 may be sometimes of two. or three, or fom- letters. 
 That, of coui-se. ci-eates a difference lietween them and 
 the users of codes y — Yes. 
 
 79ti. Has it ever occun-ed to any of you to charge 
 per letter or per five or ten letters ? — Yes ; >>ut you see 
 we get all this difficulty again, that dii-ectly you get a 
 word that is not an ordinary word of a recogrnised 
 languane the opei-atore immediately begin to make 
 mistakes in sending it forward. If an operator ha.s to 
 .send, we will say. such a message as " I ^-ill deliver 
 " 200 chests to-morrow."" he can read that message, 
 .and he does not want continually to go back on to the 
 manuscript from which he is reading, and he can reel 
 the whole of that message off upon his instniment 
 withotit any difficulty. 
 
 797. That is if it is plain language ? — Yes. but 
 directlv yo\i begin tt> make up a message into words of 
 ten lettei-s yovi begin to introduce difficulties. 
 
 79S. I was i-ather thinking of counting the messages 
 of private sendei-s in letters rather than words; for 
 instance, it is pretty hard for a poor persim to have to 
 pay o.i-. to telegraph " to."' and the equivalent of that 
 mit'ht happen two or three times in a message if he 
 has no code, and private people who send messages 
 liave no code? — As far ;is the Western Union are 
 concerned we have got a code we supply in all our 
 offices, and anybody who goes into ime of our offices 
 can make use of this code, and if he is seniiing it to 
 one of the Western Union offices at the other end it 
 can be de-coded there. 
 
 799. And you send that at the ordinai-y rate ? — At 
 the full i-ate. 
 
 800. What does that code of yom-s include which 
 yon have established for the benetit of yom- clients ? 
 Does that include all sorts of domestic messages ? — 
 I do not think I have ever studied it. but it is an 
 ordinary code. 
 
 801. (Sir Alfred Bateman.) I think you are rather 
 more optimistic aliout the increase in caliling than 
 our witness yesterday. Sir Hem-j- Primrose ■• — I think 
 perhaps, while 1 am expi'essing the views of the 
 Western Union. I ought to say I am. Tlie Western 
 Union believe that the caliles — and not only the cables, 
 but the facilities of sending cables by telephone, and 
 that kind of thing, are more or less the breath of life 
 to the comniiinity. and our President is vei-y strong 
 upon that. 
 
 802. So that you can give further facilities without 
 the fear of depletiil|r yoiu- pi'esent lucrative business H 
 
 Xo. I will not say that, sir ; we know we shall 
 
 deplete it. 
 
 803. Diminish it a little? — We shall dejdete our 
 full-jjaid traffic, bnt what we hope is that as time iroes 
 on we shall make up Iwith that fidl-paid traffic and 
 that we shall increase very much tlie lower-rate tiiiffit' 
 as well. 
 
 80I-. You say in your precis, and it seems to be 
 rather pessimistic : " It does not anticipate that any 
 " increase in the amount of ti-affic which it might 
 •' .share with the Pacific Cable Board would have the 
 " effect of enabling it to reduce the Transatlantic 
 " portion of the rite." Any large increase such as 
 doubling would, would it not ? — 1 do not think so, 
 because the traffic we can-y for the Pacific Cable 
 Boai'd is only 2 per cent, of our traffic. 
 
 805. Is that 2 per cent, of your caljle tiuffic ? — Yes. 
 So that if they were to increase the Australian traffic 
 by 100 per cent., it would still only be ■!• per cent., and 
 we could easily deal with that. 
 
 80ti. Sm-ely you have i-ather a large shce now. have 
 you not. of the ;>;.■. to Australia ? — No. on tlie contrary. 
 
 807. What is it ? — I liave not the make-up ; I take 
 it from the honourable memlier that it is lOd. 
 
 808. It is more than lOrf. on the full Ss. rate, is it 
 not ?• — -No. 
 
 809. From British Columbia ? — Tlie 3,*. rate you 
 are talking of is the rate to Australia. 
 
 810. And there is the Atlantic line to the Pacific ; 
 there are thi-ee portions ? — Whatever we take there we 
 take to Montreal : we only carry as far as Monti-eal. 
 
 811. You take lOd. to Montreal : from where ? — 
 From London or anywhei-e in Great Britain to 
 ilontreal. 
 
 812. And from Monti-eal to Lond<m ? — Yes. 
 
 813. You get i-ather more for the distance than a 
 proportion, do you not ? — I do not know how the 
 <listanee compares, but I should think not : the land 
 line is not so expensive as the cable. Pei-sonally 
 speaking I do not know mucli about the make-up of 
 the tariffs, because it was liefore my time. 
 
 814. Do you contemplate that it is likely there 
 will be another Atlantic ca1>le. either an Impeiial one 
 or another private one ? — I am quite sure that when 
 we get near using up our existing capacity and we find 
 the traffic increasing, we shall put do^vn one if necessary. 
 
 81.5. How abovit a competing one — an Imperial 
 one ? There is the Pacific one which is a joint Imperial 
 one and there might be a joint Imperial cable across 
 the Atlantic : how would that affect yoiu- tariff ? — I 
 do not imagine it would att'ect it at all. 
 
 816. Of course if there was a reduction you would 
 follow any reduction ? — I do not think it follows that 
 we should. Supposing they were to reduce their rate 
 for one Atlantic cable they would pi-etty soon get 
 flooded with business, and the other business has got to 
 be carried somehow ; they cannot carry veiy much on 
 one cable. There are 17 cables working across the 
 Atlantic now, and although one might be able to take 
 some of the traffic, it would not take very much of it. 
 
 817. Have you considered that there will be the 
 wireless competition still nearer ? — We are not good 
 at prophesying, any of us. 
 
 818. You think it is no good to seek to prophesy 
 yet ? — We like to prophesy when we know and we do 
 not know yet. 
 
 819. (Mr. Campbell.) On the matter of these charges 
 for cables and their allocation lietween the different 
 companies, we have had it in evidence befoi-e the 
 Commission that on a press message the Pacific Cable 
 Board gets 3rf. out of 1\d. for carrying the message 
 from Austi-alia to Montreal, and that the Atlantic 
 companies get 4(f. for cariying it tlie balance of the 
 distance ; is that correct ? — I do not think it is. I am 
 sorry to say I have not got the make-up of the messages 
 here. I did not know that was a point which would 1(6 
 discussed. 
 
 820. You could not say decidedly about the alloca- 
 tion of the price of the mess;»ge? — No. 
 
 821. You say that the Pacific cable business 
 yon get only constitutes 2 per cent, of yom- total 
 tiaffic ; what shai e of the Pacific Cable Board's 
 l)usiness would yoiu- company get ? Would yon get 
 half of it ? — What happens is this. I cannot tell you 
 what proportion we collect at this end: we collect, as 
 Su- Henry Pi-imrose told you yestei-day, all the 
 messages we can through our own offices here and we 
 have got offices in the principal towns of Great 
 Britaui. The Post Office. I believe, hand 50 per cent, 
 to us and 50 per cent, to the Commercial Company of 
 the traffic they receive, and of the incoming traffic 
 from the other side the Pacific Cable Board liand us 
 5(1 per cent, and hand the Commercial 50 per cent. 
 
 822. That would mean you get 50 per cent, ? — Yes, 
 roughly. 
 
 823. When you gave the figures I thought there 
 would be some sort of arrangement in that way, and 
 what struck me was that at present the Pacific cable is
 
 MINUTES »V EVIDENCE. 
 
 43 
 
 13 Nowmber 1913.] 
 
 Mr. S. J. GoDDARD. lOcursen Coiamuuicafioiis : Post and I'ehijniph. 
 
 carrying half of the full load, at least that was the 
 evidence of Sir Henry Primro.se yesterday ? — Yes. 
 
 824. If one half of the Pacific Cable Board's present 
 business constitutes only 2 per cent, of your traffic, 
 then the full load of the Pacific cable line would be 
 only 1/1 2th of what youi- eight cables are carrying 
 aud your cables have a great deal of spare time ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 825. Can you explain why that discrepancy should 
 come in ? — Yes, qvtite easily. In a submarine cable, 
 the longer the span of the cable from shore to shore 
 the slower the tiunsmission of the message, and it is 
 most extraordinai-y (it seems a kind of arithmetical 
 progression sum really), if you have a cable, for 
 instance (as we have now) to the shores of Nova 
 Scotia, and it carries a certain number of words a 
 minute or hour, as the case may l>e, by cutting that 
 cable in on the coast of Newfoundland and so shortening 
 the cable and putting in what they call a repeater 
 station at Ne^vfoundland, and then transmitting the 
 message again on to America you double the capacity 
 of that oaV)le. 
 
 S26. That is to say, two short cjibles would have a 
 very much greater capacitj' than a cable twice the 
 length ? — Yes. Another thing which has a bearing is 
 the size of the core of the cable itself, whether you 
 have a very thick piece of copjier wire running through 
 the centre as a conductor or whether you have a thin 
 piece. No two of our cables across the Atlantic have 
 the same capacity ; they land in different places, some 
 of them start from different places, and the core of 
 each ca])le (I think I am right in saying, but I will not 
 be sure) is different. 
 
 827. Roughly, on those figures we can show that 
 the capacity of one of your cables is double that of the 
 Pacific cable ? — I should not like to put it like that. 
 As I explained to you before, when you are talking 
 about the capacity of a cable you ai-e getting on to 
 very dangerous ground. 
 
 828. I am speaking of the maximum safe load 
 allowing for all contingencies of a possible rush of 
 business, and allowing a fair mai-giu ? — I think then 
 I cannot give the relation between our caliles and the 
 Pacific cables, there are such a lot of factors to come 
 in. I think we should have a larger capacity, because 
 we have the advantage of a group of cables, aud 
 directly you have a group of cables you get a larger 
 capacity. They have only one belonging to the Pacific 
 Cable Board. 
 
 829. Still there is a very great gain on the shorter 
 cable, so far as capacity is concerned ?— Yes. 
 
 830. We coidd make no dedrittious from the load 
 of the Pacific cable? — No, it would want working out. 
 
 831. In sending a plain language message, does the 
 cable company use its own code and send that message 
 in code ? — No, it sends the message as it is handed in. 
 
 832. Would it not be good commercial business to 
 use a code H — -That has lieen contemplated from time 
 to time, but you must remember that there is the 
 expense of coding it and de-coding it and the chance 
 of error. 
 
 833. But it would very much increase the capacity 
 of your cables '■^ — I am told it is contrary to the 
 International Convention. 
 
 834. Was there any reason why the International 
 Convention should have objected to that ? — That is 
 in the wisdom of the International Convention. I am 
 afraid I could not give their reasons for the decisions 
 they come to. 
 
 835. But it would, as a, matter of fact, enormously 
 increase the capacity of the cables, would it not ? — 
 Not enormously, anyhow. 
 
 836. Perhaps I might put it in this way : What is 
 the proportion of plain-language message to coded 
 message in your lausiness ? — I am told that about 
 80 per cent. wt)uld be coded. 
 
 837. So that the plain-language messages would 
 not be very material ? — No. 
 
 838. (Sir Bider Haggard.) You told the Chairman 
 about those week-end and night messages, and you 
 also told him about the wonderful amplification and 
 the great ingenuity shown with regard to codes when 
 used in telegraphy I-' — Yes. 
 
 839. I think you have mentioned that by one of 
 those amplifications as much as 10*1 words could Im got 
 into a single word 't — I did not go quite so far as that ; 
 I said perhaps 70 to 100. 
 
 840. By means of a douljle code ? — Yes. 
 
 841. Does it not strike you. under those circum- 
 stances, that the allowance made to the plain-hmguage 
 week-end and night messages is really not so great 
 after all ."—Yes, I think it is. 
 
 842. K I sent a week-end message : " Expect me 
 " by the boat which sails after the ' Nubia ' ; I shall 
 ■• arrive in London," and so on, that makes up 19 
 words, or whatever it may V>e, and there might be one 
 code word which would say all that ; and what I am 
 submitting with respect is that after all the advantages 
 are not so real as they seem to those who send in plain 
 language ? — 1 think you must rememljer, sir. that we 
 are dealing (when you are talking of the non-coded 
 telegrams) with about 20 per cent, only, and you must 
 also bear in mind that the coded messages are all full- 
 rate messiiges which go express all the way through. 
 These other messages are subject to delays. The cost 
 of the opei'ating. t)f course, is rather cheaper, even with 
 one code woi'd. than it is with 19 ordinary words. On 
 the other hand, you have a very large number of 
 repetition's, that is to say, mistakes in a code tele- 
 gram, which means sending the telegram twice ovei- 
 from its office of origin. You must also bear this in 
 mind that when you come to the counting and to the 
 collecting and delivery of the messages, the costs are 
 the same ; the message is a message, and has to l:)e 
 delivered, whether there are 19 words or one. 
 
 843. Excuse my interrupting for one moment. Do 
 you have the system of posting week-end messages i* — 
 We either post or telegraph them. 
 
 844. The cost of posting is only popping it in a 
 box ? — And the penny postage. 
 
 845. Forgive my interruption H — 1 think that 
 finishes it, sir. 
 
 846. You are not of opinion that on the whole 
 these advantages given to these cheap plain language 
 messages are more apparent than real, when you 
 bear in view what you can send by means of a code 
 message ? — No, I think they are very real indeed, and 
 I think that is borne out by the use to which the 
 service has been put. 
 
 847. Do you think the cable companies might be 
 disposed to do something in the line which Mr. Lorimer 
 mentioned, that is to say. to allow these words to have 
 a length of ten letters; for in.stance, somebody wants 
 to cable : " The most of the letter." and you might get 
 " The most of" into one ten-letter word H — I am afraid 
 I shoidd not like to give an opinion upon that. I do 
 not feel sufficiently technical to be able to give an 
 opinion, and in a case of that kind you have to make 
 an arrangement which has to be fiilh'u in with by the 
 Governments at both ends. 
 
 848. I understand, and I do not want to press that. 
 I will put it in this way : that it would not present any 
 great difficulty woidd it. or cost, or make it veiy much 
 more difficult to telegraph, to run such words as " The 
 most of" together into one word? — Yes. it would add 
 considerably to the difficulty of transmission, because if 
 you are transmitting fnmi here to Australia, say "The 
 most of." that is quite iuteUigilile to the telegraph 
 clerk who is dealing with it, but if you ilivide that 
 word up int<i "themo" or some such word as that, 
 then by the divisit>n into another word it is making a 
 kind of hieroglyphic. 
 
 849. But I did not suggest that ; I suggested 
 running the words together, not cutting them into 
 lengths? — If you were to do what Mr. Lorimer 
 suggested, as I understood his suggestion, it was to 
 run them together so as to make conventional divisions 
 with ten letters in each, and you would consequently 
 1)6 breaking up and regrouping ytiur letters. 
 
 850. I quite see your point, although it is not quite 
 the same as I had in my mind ; I am obliged to you 
 tVir your view on the matter. 1 gather that you look 
 with a more chtiei-ful eye on the possiliility of cheapen- 
 ing telegraphic cable commimication with distaat 
 
 F 3
 
 44 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 U November 1913A 
 
 Mr. S. J. GoDDARD. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 
 
 places than did om- esteemed witness yesterday ? — I 
 think that is so. 
 
 851. (Mr. Tatlmc.) With regard to those week-end 
 messages with Australia, whieh you seem disposed to 
 encoui'age as far as you can. the facility you say you 
 are inclined to go in for is earlier delivery ■•— Yes. 
 
 852. But you are not inclined to do anything in the 
 way of the chai-ge y — Not at present. 
 
 853. Have you considered at all that you could 
 reduce the minimum number of words ? — That is the 
 same as reducing the charge. 
 
 854. Have you considered that ? — Yes, and at the 
 present moment we do not see our way to contemplate 
 it. You must remember we have (inly had this going 
 on for nine months, and we do not know where the 
 sei-vice is to lead us. 
 
 865. If you were disposed to do that at the present 
 moment, could that be carried into effect \vithout the 
 concuiTence of the other Atlantic cable companies ? — 
 The Western Union is the only Atlantic cable company 
 Avhich gives the week-end service. 
 
 856^ You do do things on your own account then ? 
 — Yes, we do ; we and the Pacific Caljle Board together 
 have instituted this service and the other Atlantic 
 cable companies have not. 
 
 857. And if you were disposed to reduce that mini- 
 mimi. it could possibly be done ? — If we were well 
 disposed to it and the Pacific Cable Board concun-ed. 
 
 S5S. {Mr. Garnett.) Have you contemplated making 
 an inclusive charge, including the telegraphing of the 
 week-end letter, which is now charged extra, from the 
 terminal points in Australasia, or is that a matter 
 which would come before the Pacific Cable Board ? — 
 That is a matter for the Pacific Cable Board. 
 
 859. (Mr. Coviphell.) In reply to the Chairman you 
 gave some illustrative figiu-es of what might be done in 
 the way of saving by means of coding messages, Ijut 
 could you give the Commission auy figures as to the 
 numlier of words that would be saved in ordinary coding 
 by ordinary business people ? — I am afraid I cannot. 
 
 860. You could not say whether it was 4 to 1 or 
 3 to 1 ? — No ; such a lot of these fij-ms have jjrivate 
 codes of their own. and they go to an extraordinary 
 expense. A firm will spend from 10,000/. to •10.0()()l. in 
 making a code for themselves, because they know they 
 are going to save that. 
 
 861. So that you really could not say? — No; we 
 have lots of cases where we do not know how many 
 words are included in a code word. 
 
 Friday, 14th November 1913. 
 
 Sir John Denison-Pender, K.C.M.G., Vice-Chairmau aud Managing Dii'ector of the Eastern Telegraph 
 Company, Ltd.. Managing Director of the Eastern and South Afi-ican Telegraph Company, Ltd,, and 
 Director of the Eastera Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company, Ltd., and Mr. William 
 HiBBEEDiNE, TrdSic Acc<mntaut to the Eastern Telegiaph Company, Ltd.. the Eastern and South African 
 Teleo'raph Company, Ltd.. aud the Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company, Ltd., 
 called and examined. 
 
 862. (Chairman.) Sir John. I think you are Chair- 
 niau of the Easteni Telegraph Company. Limited, the 
 Eastern and South African Telegraph Company, 
 Limited, and the Easteni Extension Australasia and 
 China Telegraph Company. Limited — the three allied 
 companies ? — I am Vice-Chairman of some of them, 
 aud Managmg Director of the Easteni, and have some 
 authority in the others. 
 
 863. You appear to-day to give us iufoimation 
 regarding the ijuestions of poli<^y. and Mr. Hiblierdine 
 will give us informati<m on iiuestions of accounts? — 
 Mr. Hibberdine will deal with tlie traffic. 
 
 864. Perhaps the most convenient coiu-se would be 
 if you would kindly read your statement or your letter 
 to the Commission"?— It is tin- letter beginning : ■• After 
 paying a fair dividend " 
 
 865. The letter of the 16th October first, perhaps ? 
 
 Thv vitiiesx read thr /olloirini/ leiter : — 
 
 ■• The Easteni Telegraph Company. Limited. 
 
 " The Eiistern and South African Telegraph Company, 
 
 Limited. 
 
 •' The Easteni Extension Austi-alasia and China 
 
 Telegraph Company, Limited. 
 
 " Electra House. Finsbury Pavement, 
 " London, E.C. 
 ,. gi,. •' 16th October litlo. 
 
 •■ I BEG to inform you that your letter of the 
 5th ultimo* lias been duly submitted to the Boards of 
 the Easteni and Easteni Extensiim Australasia and 
 China Telegraph Companies, and in reply I have to 
 state that the policy of these companies on the question 
 of cable rates to and from Australasia and other j)arts 
 of the world has always been to reduce rates whenever 
 experience has shown that the reduction is likely to 
 produce sufficient new traffic to recoup the initial loss 
 and cover the extra cost of woi-king, and we cannot do 
 better than refer you to the various Standard Revenue 
 Agreements made with that object. The Staixlard 
 Revenue Agreement of the 14th April IHOO is a ca.se in 
 lioint, whereiu it is provided that the rates between 
 Europe and Australasia shall be reduced automatically 
 in accordance wth the growth of traffic. The rates 
 between Great Britain and Australasia were reduced 
 from is. iW. to 4.S. in li'OO, to 3s. (id. in 1901. and to 
 3s. in 1902. At the end of 1902 an opposition cable 
 
 * JJot printed. 
 
 was established i-ia the Pacific, the coiisec|uence of 
 which was that any chance of a fm-ther reduction to 
 2s. 6f/. provided for in the agreement was indefinitely 
 postponed. It may be pointed out that had tlie 
 interests in the two routes, vi'i Easteni and oid Pacific, 
 been identical, the increase of traffic with Australasia 
 would have automatically l)rought about a reduction to 
 2s. 6d. per word on the- 1st .lanuary 1911, and possibly 
 a year before that date. 
 
 ■' 2. The Companies are prepared to meet the wishes 
 of the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission, 
 and have appointed as reiiresentatives to give evidence 
 on their behalf myself and the traffic accountant to 
 the three companies. Mr. W. Hibberdine. 
 
 " 3. With reference to the statement that there 
 exists a poor load factor on nearly all submarine cables 
 these Companies desire to point out that the Eastern 
 cables are in a totally different position to those of the 
 North Atlantic, these latter cables being piuctically 
 confined to the transmission of con-espondence between 
 the United States of America and Europe, almost the 
 whole of which is, owing to the difference of time, 
 transmitted within a vei-y few hours of the day. The 
 Easteni Companies have to ti-ansmit traffic not only 
 between Europe and Australasia, the Far East, and 
 South Africa, liut also a large amount of traffic with 
 Spain, Portugal. Azores. (libi-altaiv Morocco, Malta, 
 Greece. Turkey. A:c. In some cases the cables are fully 
 occupied during the whole of the 24 hours, and to 
 maintain efficiency it is necessai-y to resen-e a consider- 
 alile amount of cable-carrying capacity to i:)rovide for 
 interruptions and for sudden iiishes of traffic. 
 
 •• 4. If there be no exceptional breakdown, it is 
 possible with the present system of working for some 
 of the cables to be closed during jiortions of the 24 
 hours. If. however, the cables were to be kept open, in 
 order to cany traffic at unremunerative rates, the resene 
 capacity it isneces.sary to maintain against inten-uptions 
 would be absorlied. and the general telegrajjliing public 
 would suffer considerably in the carrying of their 
 ( irdinary coiTespondence. It would also necessitate an 
 increase of exjiert staff', which is not always easy to 
 obtain, and the salaries, travelling exisenses, housing, 
 &c.. of which would absorb auy possible profit. 
 
 " 5. With regard to the suggestion that there should 
 be closer co-operation between the various cable and 
 telegraph systems connected with Australasia, these
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK. 
 
 45 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pendeb, k.c.m.g., aud 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBEEDINB. 
 
 [Overfiea Communications : 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 coiiipanie.s have on several occasions stated that they 
 are perfectly willing to more closely co-operate with the 
 Pacific Cable Board, provided fair arrangements for 
 both parties can be arrived at. 
 
 " 6. With regard to further reductions for full i-ate 
 messages, we would refer you to our remarks in the 
 fii'st paragraph of this letter, with reference to Standard 
 Revenue Agreements. 
 
 " 7. As regards defen-ed and weeli-end messages, 
 we would refer you to the letters which we have 
 addressed to the G( ivernments of Austi-alasia and South 
 Africa on the 1st Januai-y 1913* ; unfortunately the 
 suggestions of the companies have not been favourably 
 received by some of the Gr)vernment8 concerned. 
 
 ■' S. The tariffs of these companies for pi-ess 
 messages are ah-eady so low (vide schedulet attached) 
 that any further reduction is impracticable. Besides 
 which, an arrangement has been made with Reuter's 
 Telegram Company for the circulation of an Imperial 
 news .service, which practically gives the news of the 
 world to all communities in the Far East, both large 
 and small, for a comparatively trifling amount. At 
 places like Zanzibar and Mauritius, the actual cost to 
 the inhabitants is well under a penny per word, and in 
 South Africa and India the cost per word to each 
 individual paper is well under a tentli of a penny per 
 woi'd. 
 
 " 9. The reduction on deferred messages in plain 
 language is one half of the charge for ordinary tele- 
 grams, and this is in accordance with the arrangements 
 made between the various countries in the International 
 Telegraph Union. 
 
 " 10. As regards other improvements in the service, 
 we are continually experimenting vrith new instruments, 
 in order to increase accuracy and speed in the trans- 
 mission of telegrams. We have recently commenced 
 working direct between London and Alexandria, and 
 we trust this long-distance signalling will be fvu'ther 
 extended to other parts of the system. In addition, 
 the companies are continually spending large sums 
 out of their reserve funds to increase the facilities for 
 telegi-aphing, so that during the busy hours of the day 
 merchants shall receive their messages with regularity 
 and despatch. During the current year alone, the 
 companies have spent, or will spend, an amount of 
 almost two millions of money." 
 
 S6H. Is that exclusive of new lines ?— No, that is 
 including the new lines which are now being laid. 
 
 " 11. With regard to the route via Pao, commonly 
 called the Turkish route, the tarifE by this line has for 
 40 years been less than by the route viil Eastern-Suez 
 or vid, Teheran. At the Telegraph Conference at 
 Rome, in 1871, it was arranged that owing to the 
 inferiority of the Turkish route it should be allowed 
 to have a cheaper rate than the other two routes. 
 The ac^tual amount of traffic carried vi<l Fao is now 
 about one-fourth. of one per cent, of the t<ital amount 
 of traffic. 
 
 " 12. The question of carrying day cable letters 
 to the Par East cannot he rt)ntemplated and the com- 
 panies feel strongly that deferred messages at half- rates 
 give the public who send social telegrams every 
 advantage that can reasonably be claimed. 
 
 " 13. As to the suggestion that dictionary code 
 words might be allowed in deferred messages, we 
 would point out that this would do away with the basic 
 idea of deferred telegrams, and would be equivalent 
 to the reduction of all their tariffs by one-half, which 
 is a propositi<in the companies are not prepared to 
 entertain. It may be pointed out that the difficulty 
 of (lcci<ling which are dictionary code words and which 
 arc not has been found from the experience of the 
 past 10 years to be insuperable. 
 
 " 14. With regard to the delivery of week-end 
 telegrams on Tuesday morning, we beg to refer you to 
 our proposal of the Ist January 1913, from which you 
 wdl see that these Companies from the first advocated 
 the delivery of these telegrams on the Monday. 
 
 This letlL'V is [iriiiteil on |>. IC. 
 
 t Not [irintrd. 
 
 " 15. As regards South Africa, we beg to enclose 
 a statement showing the i-eceipts fnim this traffic since 
 cable comnnmication was established, from which you 
 will see that although the company reduced the rate 
 in 1903 to 2s. 6d. per word, the present receipts are 
 more than 100,000?. less per annum than they were in 
 that year, which was the fii-st year after the Boer 
 war. 
 
 '• I am, &.C. 
 " E. J. Harding, Esq., " J. Denison-Pender. 
 
 " Dominions Royal Commission." 
 
 867. I think if you would read the statement 
 beginning " After paying a fair dividend " ?— Tes. 
 
 " After paying a fair dividend to their shareholders 
 aud giving the telegraphing public a share in the profits 
 by reducing the rates, the policy of the Eastern and 
 its associated companies has from their inception been 
 to put as much sui-plus revenue as possible into the 
 resei-ve funds, so that the original cables have been 
 kept in a good working state by repau-s and renewals, 
 and funds have been provided for duplications aud 
 extensions. 
 
 " This policy has resulted in the cost per knot of 
 the cables owned by the companies, as represented by 
 the total capital expended (ordinary, preferred, and 
 debentures), being reduced to the following figures : — 
 
 £ 
 " Eastern and Eastern and South African 
 
 Companies - - - - - 12.5 
 " Eastern Extension Australasia and 
 
 China Company - - - . 118 
 ' ' as compared with similar amounts for other com- 
 panies and administrations, viz. : — 
 
 £ 
 " French Atlantic Company - - - 186 
 " German Atlantic Company - - 233 
 
 •' Great Northern Company - - - 202 
 " Pacific Cable Board - - - . 217 
 
 " These figui-es represent all property of the Com- 
 panies, including cables, ships, land, buildings, and 
 mstruments." 
 
 868. That is the net amount in your liaiaucc sheet 
 after writing this do^vn ; that is to say, you have been 
 able to ^vi-ite down half the cost, apparently.' — No, 
 that is the total cost. 
 
 869. That is to say, you laid them cheaper than 
 the others ? — Well, yes, some of theu^ are cheaper and 
 some may be dearer, but taking them as a whole, and 
 the amount we have spent on them, aud all that sort of 
 thing, it has reduced them practically to this figm-e 
 of 125Z. 
 
 870. The point I want to ascertain is this, whether 
 that was your original cost which was lower than other 
 companies, or whether you have reduced the amount 
 standing in your balance sheet by subsequent ^vriting 
 down ? — (Mr. Hibherdine.) Not the origin;il cost ; it is 
 the actual anioimi. at which tlie cables stand in our 
 balance sheet ; that is to say, it is not taking into 
 account the amount of reserve we have in hand at all ; 
 it is simply taking the total mileage of the cables with 
 the total amount of capital. {Sir John Pender.) 
 Which at present exists. 
 
 871. That has been arrived at by writing down from 
 your profits, has it not? — (Mr. Hibberdiiie.) It has 
 Ijeen arrived at by laying new cables and repairs out 
 of reserve fund. 
 
 872. It comes to the same thing ." — Perhaps it does. 
 (S'(V John Pender.) " It is solely by this means that the 
 companies I represent have been enalilod to reduce 
 their tariffs by increasing their carrymg capacity out 
 of surplus revenue. If any new line was laid to India, 
 the Far East or Australasia, it could not live at the 
 present rates on the capital that would be required to 
 be raised." 
 
 873. I wo\ild just like to ask you there ; what is the 
 cost of laying a new line per knot ? — It depends upon 
 the part, of the world in which the cable is laid and the 
 length of the cable to be laid. A cable of 1,200 miles 
 compared with a cable of 2,400 mUes could be laid at 
 a very much smaller cosr. per knot for the same
 
 4li 
 
 DOMINIONS UOYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 ]i November 1913. ^ 
 
 >Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.c 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBEEDINE. 
 
 iiid lOreracii Cviii iiiiinical/oiis 
 
 Fost and Telegraph. 
 
 capacity. I think I may give you something which 
 will .show it ; it i.s very much the same thing as a 
 ten-kufit ship being made as compared with a 12 or 
 14-knot ship ; it begins to cube itself. 
 
 874. The inci-ease of cost increases as the cube of 
 the distance ? — Practically it is so ; the t-oppcr required 
 is very much greater in the long-distance cable and the 
 gutta-percha must, so to speak, have control of the 
 copper. Therefore the gutta-percha has to be very 
 m-ich heavier, and the gutta-percha and the copper are 
 the two most expensive parts of a submarine cable. 
 
 87-5. Therefore the shorter your sections the cheaper 
 the cost ? — Exactly, very much cheaper. 
 
 876. Will you now finish the statement you were 
 i-eading ? — Yes. 
 
 " In laying additional cables for inci-eased traffic, it 
 would have been less expensive for the companies to 
 have laid the additional cables over the same routes as 
 the original caWes, as by so doing a great saving in the 
 cost of stidf, maintenance ships, and other expenses 
 would have been effected, but in order to give as many 
 distinct routes as possible, so tliat in time of war or 
 political distm-bance there would be less chance of total 
 inten-uptions, the Companies have always followed the 
 policy of duplicating and triplicating their cables by 
 different routes. 
 
 '• As an example, I may mention the route to the 
 Cape cia Ascension, which involved the opening of two 
 new stations at Ascension and St. Helena, and an extra 
 maintenance shii^, whereas it would have been far less 
 expensive for the Companies to have duplicated their 
 lines between Aden and Durban, where stations abeady 
 existed and a cable ship was already stationed. 
 
 ■' In the case of Australia, it would have been less 
 expensive for the Companies to have laid duplicate 
 lines between Madras, Singapore, and Port Darwin, 
 than to have laid the cables from Durban to Adelaide, 
 involving expensive new stations at Cocos, Rodriguez, 
 Perth, and Adelaide, and the purchase and maintenance 
 of a large additional repairing steamer." 
 
 877. Then I would ask you to read yoiir letter to 
 the Australian Government of the 1st January which 
 you mention in yom- fii-st letter ? — {Mr. Hibhcrdiiie.) 
 Tliat is ahout the week-end telegi~ams ? 
 
 878. Yes. — (Sir John Pender.) This is the letter of 
 the 1st January 1913. {Beading the same.) 
 
 " The Eastern Telegraph Company, Limited. 
 
 " The Eastern and South African Telegraph Company, 
 
 Limited. 
 
 '• Sir, " 1st January 1913. 
 
 " In further reference to your letter of the 
 Kith idt., and prf^vioiis coiTespondence, I am directed 
 to inform you that these companies have been in com- 
 munication with the Secretary of the General Post 
 Office on the subject of extending week-end cable letters 
 to the Continent of Europe, and to state that it would 
 then be necessary to have the same system of charging 
 for all parts of the world. 
 
 '• The Companies desire, if possible, to discontinue 
 the present system of charging additional sums on 
 week-end cable letters for outpayments beyond their 
 cable stations, more especially iu territories of such 
 large extent as the Union of South Africa and Aus- 
 tralasia, where it places the coast towns at a much 
 "reater advantage compared with those in the interior, 
 and we understand this view is also taken by the 
 Commonwealth of Australia. 
 
 •' This would have the effect of reducing the niunber 
 of in-efixes to bo transmitted to one oniy, which is very 
 desirable. 
 
 •■ We should be prepared to recommend the Boards 
 of the Associated Companies to agree to a scheme 
 somewhat on the following lines. 
 
 •■ The clmrge for week-end cable letters to be on the 
 following basis : live words to be transmitted for the 
 charge of one ordinary word, such chai'ge to include 
 outpa^nnents. For instance, between Great Britain 
 and Avistralia the charge would be 3.9. for five words, 
 and out of Uie 3s. the Companies woidd pay the General 
 Post Office the charge for one word, viz., \d., and the 
 
 '• Union of South Africa 
 •' India 
 
 " Straits Settlements - 
 " Hong Kong 
 " Australasia 
 
 Oommonweiilth of Australia 'ul. Tins would place the 
 tariff's of the Government Admininistrations and the 
 Companies on an equal footing. 
 
 •• We shoidd prefer a minimmu of 20 words, which 
 we consider is an easier charge to calculate than 
 •2-i words. 
 
 ■• We should also prefer to deliver telegrams on 
 Monday instead of Tuesday, as we ai-e afraid that 
 befoi-e long artifii;ial delay of messages at the station of 
 destination will lead to abuses. 
 
 •' The counting of week-end cable letters to be 
 imder the same rules as those for defeiTed telegrams. 
 
 " We may also inform you that we have made the 
 necessary arrangements to introduce week-end cable 
 letters with the Straits Settlements and Hong Kong, 
 and will do so when the new reduced tariff's ai-e put into 
 operation, and that in October last we offered to 
 introduce the system of week-end cable letters with 
 India, and are awaiting a reply from the Indian 
 Government. 
 
 •• The minimum charges would therefore be as 
 follows : — 
 
 .S-. d. 
 
 10 
 
 8 
 
 11 4 "I Pi-oposed reduced 
 14 0/ tariffs. 
 1-2 (I 
 
 "We are sending similar communications to the 
 High Commissioner of the Commonwealth of Australia 
 and the Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board. 
 " I am, ifcc. 
 
 '■ W. HiBBERDINE. 
 
 " The Secretary, " Traffic Accountant. 
 
 " High Commissioner, Union of South Africa. 
 " (Also to Commonwealth of 
 
 Australia and the Pacific Cable Board.)" 
 
 879. What was the result of that letter ;•'— There 
 has been a good deal of discussion about it. Imt nothing 
 definite has been settled; we hold different views. 
 (Mr. Hihbrrdiiic). A meeting was held at the General 
 Post Office of all parties concerned, and since then we 
 have heai'd nothing about it ; there have been one or 
 two letters. ■ 
 
 880. Can you apply yoiu' jn'oposals there without 
 official sancti(.)n or not ? — {Sir John Pciidcr.) No, we 
 cannot in all cases. 
 
 881. As to that particular proposal of yours, which 
 seems a very satisfactory one to the j^iiblic, is it impos- 
 sible ior jou y — It is impossible for us. because, to 
 
 l)egin with, we have to get the sanction of India to a 
 certain part of it, and then we must have a general 
 l^rmciple right awiij through. 
 
 882. As far as regards Australia, what prohibits- ? 
 
 — We should have to arrange with the Pacific Cable 
 Board ; it would never do for us to be doing one thing 
 and the Pacific Cable Board another. 
 
 883. Do you know at all if they are agreed on that 
 proposal ? — I thmk there is a slight ditt'erence of opinion 
 between us as to the number of words. (Mr. Hibherdinc.) 
 A very strong difference ; there are two differences of 
 opinion. The Pacific Cable Board wish to retain the 
 four distinct classes of traffii^ in the case of the week- 
 end telegrams ; we only want one. The Pacific Cable 
 Board strongly oliject to deli\(>r on Monday as we wish 
 to do. {Sir Joliii Peiidi-r.) And the number of words. 
 
 884. Monday and Tuesday is clear. What are the 
 four diff'erent classes of traffic ? — {Mr. Hibberdine.) At 
 present a man can send from a calile office to a cable 
 office ; that is a direct message. He can send by post 
 from all places in Great Britain to our cable offices and 
 then liy wire. He can telegraph from the Post Office 
 by paying (ii/. for the message to our cable office and 
 then by wire. He can do one of those three thing.s 
 and wire out to Australia, and luive it posted from t)ur 
 office in Australia, or he can have it wired from our 
 office in Australia. There are four diff'ei'ent prefixes : — 
 T W T. for messages telegraphed all the way, including 
 those delivered by Company; T W P, for messages 
 telegraphed all the way to calde terminus and posted
 
 MINUTES OF KVIDEXCE. 
 
 47 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g. 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. 
 
 ;iiid ^Oversea Communicatioics 
 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 to destination ; P W T, posted to cable station and 
 telegraphed all the re.st of the way, including those 
 delivered by Company ; P W P. sent by post to and 
 fi'om eaVile termini. 
 
 88.5. And you prefer to simplify and telegraph in 
 all cases right tlii'ough ? — Certainly. 
 
 886. Do you consiiler that i-eform would be of great 
 convenience to the public? — It would ; it would be of 
 gi-eat convenience to us and would simplify the work of 
 our oounter-clerks in dealing with the public. 
 
 887. So that it would be a benefit both to the 
 transmitting companies and to the public ? — Certainly. 
 
 888. Have you a map there of your lines to Australia ? 
 — Yes. (Sir John Pender.) We have maps* which we 
 can hiuid round which would facilitate matters (hatuliiig 
 in the mtme). 
 
 889. It would be of use to us if yovi coidd e.xplain 
 in which way your Australasian traffic in each direction 
 generally goes ? — [Mr. Hihbenh'iie.) The bulk of the 
 traffic between Australasia and Europe passes normally 
 vii'i St. Vincent and South Africa ; but as this route is 
 liable to lie temporarily intenupted in the laud line 
 between Cape Town and Durban, the route via Gibraltar, 
 Egypt, Aden, Zauziliar and Durban is also used to a 
 very consideralile exteut. 
 
 89(J. (Mr. Lorimer.) What are the dotted lines in 
 the map H — (Sir Jolin Pender.) Projected cables. 
 
 891. Are any of them under construction ? — Yes, 
 they are all under construction, and will be laid before 
 May next. 
 
 892. (Chairman.) The interruptions on that route 
 which involve sending by other routes are mainly on 
 the land line in South Africa ? — (Mr. Hihberdine.) On 
 the land line, and that only temporarily, one hour, one 
 hour and a half, or two hours, something of that 
 kind. 
 
 893. Are you considering any means for diminishing 
 or avoiding them ? — Yes, we have made arrangements 
 to put an extra relay station ; we have one relay station 
 between Cape Town and Durban at present, and we 
 are going to insert an additional one. We have made 
 arrangements with the South African administration 
 to do that. 
 
 894. When those arrangements are complete the- 
 large mass of your traffic in ordinary times to and from 
 Australasia will go I'ound the Cape ? — It may do, but of 
 course we have other routes, and we divert the traffic 
 in accordance with the circumstances of the day. 
 
 895. They are regarded rather as stand-bys? — No, 
 most jjrobably when our Aden-Colombo cable is laid 
 we shall send the majority of the Australian traffic by 
 that route. 
 
 896. That will be laid when ? — In three weeks' 
 time. 
 
 897. Then the Colombo to Penang line ?— That is 
 already laid. 
 
 898. Those are tlie two missing links of your Red 
 Sea-Coloml)0-Penang-Australasian route ? — -Yes, there 
 only remains to be laid after the Aden-Colomlso line is 
 finished one additional cable in the Red Sea, and the 
 cable from Penang to Hong Kong. 
 
 899. So that, after that is done, and your land line 
 in the Cape is also improved, you will have two 
 very largely improved means of communication ? — Cer- 
 tainly ; we shall have two very good meaiLS of com- 
 munication between here and Australia. 
 
 900. What can you tell us regarding the load factor 
 on those lines ? — With regard to the total capacity of 
 the lines, or are you I'ef erring to the Australian Hue 
 only? 
 
 901. I am not referring at all to the load factor on 
 your Straits Settlements o)- Chinese lines or Indian 
 lines. — It all affects the traffic. 
 
 902. I only wanted it brought in so far as 
 it affects the Australasian question. — With regard 
 to the question of the total capacity of the Din-ban- 
 Adelaide - Perth - Cocos line, it may be pointed out 
 that the only part of this line used exclusively for 
 Australian traffic is between Adelaide and Cocos. The 
 line between Cocos and Durban is used very largely in 
 
 "' Nul. i'<-'[jrn.iiK:c:tl. 
 
 the event of interruptions for traffic with the Sti-aits 
 Settlements, the Dutch Indies, and the Far East. 
 Provision also has to be made for faulty cables, whicli 
 although not actually interrupted, frequently necessi- 
 tate a reduction in the normal working speed, and 
 render duplex working impossible. Cases also occur 
 when it is only possible to work in one direction. Two 
 other important factors are lightning and bad weather. 
 It also frequently occurs during the bad lightning 
 storms which occur in the tropics that the cables at 
 the stations where the lightning is most acute have to 
 be i)ut to earth often for some hours, and that causes 
 diversion of traffic. As instances of l)ad weather pre- 
 venting the repair of interrupted cables, we might 
 mention that the Aden to Bombay two cables were 
 interrupted for 74 and 37 days, in 1912, owing to the 
 monsoon season. 
 
 903. (Sir Rider Haggard.) Broken, do you mean ? 
 — Yes. they coiUd not be repaired because of the 
 weather. Then we had one the other day outside Porth- 
 cuniow. where owing to bad weather the ship was 
 Standing by for 28 days before it could be repaired. 
 
 904. (Chairman.) Will you now go on? — With 
 regard to the Dui'ban-Cocos cable we consider that there 
 is practically no spare capacity at the present moment 
 as it is always liable to be called upon to cari-y a very 
 large additional traffic owing to inteiTuption in the 
 various points I have already mentioned. One instance 
 which occurred last December may be given : the line 
 was worked up to the total capacity it could possibly 
 caiTy for five or six days. 
 
 905. That i.s both urgent traffic and non-urgent ? — 
 Yes ; that is to say, we sent 262.000 letters per day, or 
 equal to a yearly amount of 300 working days of 
 78,000,000 letters, or 8,000,000 words. You asked a 
 question with regard to the capacity of other routes 
 between Durban and London. Via St. Vincent we 
 have a capacity of 9,500,0(10 words, and between 
 Durban and London via Aden and Zanzibar we have a 
 capacity of 6.000,000 words. 
 
 906. (Mr. Campbell.) When the new cable to 
 Colombo is completed that condition will be con- 
 siderably altered ? — Considerably altered, but naturally 
 we find we are f idl up practically with our caldes during 
 hiusy times of the day, and therefore we have to spend 
 this extra money to increase oui- carrying capacity. 
 
 907. (Chairman.) When you have the new lines 
 going can you make a forecast of the amount of free 
 available capacity which you will have either for urgent 
 or non-urgent business ? — I am afraid not ; we do not 
 think we have any too much capacity even when we 
 have the Aden-Colombo cable laid. 
 
 908. In other words you consider your present load 
 factor and your load factor when these new lines are 
 completed satisfactory ? — Satisfactory ; we have a large 
 margin, undoubtedly, but we want that large margin 
 to give proper efficiency and in case of sudden ruslies 
 of traffic. Traffic does not come in regularly ; there are 
 not the same number of messages every day ; some days 
 the number is double what it is on other days — we 
 have the wool sales iu Australia or S(juth Africa, for 
 instance. 
 
 909. Your position is entirely different from that 
 of the Atlantic Companies and also the Pacific 
 Company ? — Absolutely. 
 
 91(J. In the sense that j'on are not looking for non- 
 urgent traffic in the same way that they are ?^No ; we 
 take a certain amoinit of it which we can manage. 
 
 911. We would like to have your opinion on the 
 question of modern ciphers and the amount of economy 
 which they afford to the sender : what is the proportion 
 of a cipher message compared with a plain language 
 message? — -(Sir John Pender.) It is imjjossible to say; 
 a good code will almost work up to anything. I should 
 say there is hardly any limit to what you can code. 
 Long phrases now go as one word in a very efficient 
 code. 
 
 912. Can you give any general propoi-tion ? We 
 have heard various figures given, 6 to 1, 7 to 1, up, 
 I think, to 70 to 1 ? — I should say certainly not less — ■ 
 I am speaking offhand, rather — but I should say cer- 
 tainly not less than 25 to 1. (Mr. Hibberdine.) It 
 
 F 4
 
 IS 
 
 DOMINIONS ROVAL C0M.MI8SI0N' I 
 
 1-1 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denii'ON-Pendeb, k.c.m.g., and 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. 
 
 [^Oversea Communications • 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 woxild depend entirely what traffic was affected. With 
 Australia and India the codes have arrived at very 
 great perfection. With European traffic the codes are 
 not so perfect ; consequently the proportion of words 
 would not be so large. 
 
 913. We are principally now concerned with 
 A-ustnilasia ?— That would be 20 to 25. 
 
 914. Of course, this argument suggests itself, that 
 if cipher reduces the number of words to o\ith. and if 
 your plain language rate is only one-half of your 
 deferred rate, you are treating yoiu- plain language 
 sender ten times worse than you ai-e treating your 
 cipherer.— (Si/- John Pender.) I think we may take 
 into consideration there what the traffic is. Our 
 plain language, our social ti-affic, is something under 5 
 per cent. 
 
 915. There I agree; however that again suggests 
 the question whether that 5 per cent, is not more 
 susceptil)le of improvement and development than the 
 95 per cent. ? — I do not think it is. sir, for this reason — 
 that a social telegram will be sent only if it has got to 
 lie sent. Take Australia. If a man sends a social 
 message he sends it because he ba.s got to send it. not 
 because that message can be sent for a foui-th or a tenth. 
 I do not believe that he will send it if he is not forced. 
 It is a different thing when you get inland rates of 
 pennies to foreign rates of shillings. 
 
 9Hi. Then, in your judgment, the reduction of cost 
 would not develop traffic in these social telegrams-' 
 — No, we could not get down to such a low rate that 
 social workwo\ildbe material at all in our long-distance 
 ti-affic. 
 
 917. We had evidence in Australia to this effect, 
 that the high minimum for sending week-end telegrams 
 was a considerable deterrent. I think when we were 
 there the minimvmi was los. y — (Mr. Hibberdine.) 18s. 
 
 918. And it was suggested that if your minimum 
 number of >vords could lie reduced, say, to a half, 
 bringing the cost down to 9s. or 10s. there would be 
 a veiy large development of traffic and a \ery great 
 increase of social commuuicatiim between Australia 
 and the Mother Country ?—(S/)- .Tohit Pender.) 1 doubt 
 whetlier there would, but if there was an increase and 
 a verv material increase, we might get our cables 
 blocked up with work that was only paying us a vei-y 
 small proportion of what practically the total of our 
 traffic pays now. It might interfere with the com- 
 mercial traffic. We lind that with the commercial 
 traffic, if the merchant can get accuracy and reliability 
 and speed, he is not so very keen about reduction of 
 rate if he can get that. 
 
 919. I think it is only fair to say that in Australia 
 there was only one opinion about your accnii-acy and 
 your speed •' — They were satisfied with that ':' 
 
 920. I think so; there were complaints abnut rate. 
 ■ — Everyone wants the rate reduced. 
 
 92L And there were complaints alxmt minimum, 
 l)ut I think it is only just to your companies to say 
 that we heard no complaints about either accuracy or 
 speed? — Thank you; 1 am glad to hear that; that is vei-y 
 satisfa.'tory. but I am tifraid with regard to rates, we 
 have got no fi-iends. 
 
 922. What do you say as to the result of the 
 introduction of the deferred rate, which I tliink has 
 been in force nearly two years, and of the week-end 
 rate which has been in force some ten nitmths ? — I 
 think we can give you figures upon that ? — {Mr. Hibber- 
 dine.) As to the figures, we have taken out one or 
 two days to get the percentage of the social compaied 
 with the commercial. Our idea of defeired traffic 
 was that it would bring in the sm.all merchant and the 
 shopkeeper ; it would not be much good for social 
 people. I think our views have heen confirmed l)y the 
 actual facts. We find that with Australia the com- 
 mercial work on defeired traffic is 92 per cent, of the 
 whole ; the social work is 8 per cent. We find that in 
 South Africa the proportion of commercial is 72.\ per 
 cent, and the social is 27.^ per cent. With regaid to 
 week-end traffic, we find that with Australia the social 
 work is 17 per cent, and the commercial work 8:! per 
 cent. With Africa we find that the commercial work 
 is 79 per cent, and the social 21 per cent. Now, with 
 
 regard to the deferred work, our idea is this, that social 
 work does not practically exist where countries are 
 very far apart, and also where there is no fioatrng or 
 temporary population. I think that view of oui-s is 
 proved by these figures, and also by the figm-es of 
 defeii-ed traffic with India where there is a temporary 
 white population. 
 
 923. By " temporary "' do you mean tourist ? — Oh, 
 no ; I mean the English officers, European mei-chants, 
 and men who do not go out to reside pei-maneutly in 
 India. But in Australia and South Africa they go to 
 live. In India the proportion of the social on def ei-red 
 messages is 4-t per cent, as against 56 per cent, of 
 commercial. I think our views, therefore, are proved 
 by these figures. 
 
 924. We had similar figui-es from the Pacific cable, 
 which may be of interest to confront with yours, in 
 which they stated in the ordinary caliles private was 
 n-43 per cent., business 93 57 ; and deferred ordinary, 
 private, was 49 per cent., business 51. That gives, in 
 fact, a much higher percentage of private ? — It gives a 
 very much higher percentage of deferred, but not of 
 the ordinary ; our percentage of the ordinary is about 
 five. 
 
 925. It is similar to yom- experience in the case of 
 ordinary, and much higher in the case of defeii-ed i* 
 — Yes. 
 
 926. (Mr. Campbell.) Have you worked out your 
 defen-ed messages in that proportion, or in calculating 
 the proportion have you taken the whole volume of 
 your- business ? — Simply the deferred. (Sir John Pender.) 
 Will you allow me to say there is a reason for the 
 difference in the figures which you mentioned. There 
 is a reason why the Pacific cable should c;u-ry more 
 deferred than we. 
 
 927. (Chairman.) What is that? — Because the Post 
 Office inland system here hands all then- undirected 
 work to the Pa(-ific Cable Board, and a great deal of the 
 deferred work comes from the local telegraph offices all 
 over the country. Thei-efore. all that would go to the 
 Pacific Cable Board. (Mr. Hibberdine.) In other words, 
 they get a much higher jtroporfion of ordinary social 
 work than we do. 
 
 928. I should like your opinion regarding the benefit 
 of the defen-ed and the week-end rates. Are you satis- 
 fied with the development of the defen-ed telegram 
 system, and of the week-end system.' — (Sir John 
 Fender.) We have a good deal of it. as the figures 
 show-, as commercial work, and the amount of social 
 work being so small means that there is no necessity 
 for it ; we have never come down to a rate which would 
 enable a social sender to spend any money over it. 
 Then, of course, we are. and always lia\ e lieen since the 
 very beginning, opposed to deliveiyon the Tuesday, for 
 this reason ; naturally when a message comes into our 
 office at the week-end we send it as soon as we can ; 
 we get rid of it when the line is clear. On Saturday 
 afternoon very often it comes ; it is in the terminal 
 office long before the Tuesday. A man may come on 
 Monday morning and say. •- You have a message for 
 me from so and so ; I am expecting it " : it may be 
 about his wife being ill, or something of that sort. 
 The answer I should have to give him is •• Yes. it is 
 
 - in the office, but ywu cannot have it until to-morrow 
 •■ moniing." We have had cases of that sort. 
 
 i>29. (Sir Eider HiKjgard.) That is a monstious 
 state of affairs. — I have always been strongly against 
 it since the very first time it was started. We have to 
 say to the man, " If you like to pay the fidl rate you 
 can have this message." It puts us in an impo.ssilile 
 position, and in many cases we have had to give it nji, 
 where 't has been a sei-ious case. (Mr. Hibberdine.) . 
 Another point is that we have to deal with the public 
 in Great Britain ; the Pacific Cable Board does not 
 deal with the pulilic. We are face to face with the 
 public in Gi-eat Britain over the counters ; we know 
 what the public want. The Pacific Cable Board are 
 not face to face with the public. (Sir John Pender.) 
 In other words, the Government is stronger. 
 
 930. (Chairnuui.) There is nothing in those figures 
 to disprove the i-ontention that social traffic may be 
 very lai-gely developed liy imiirLiving the expedition of
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 49 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., and 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. 
 
 [Oversea Comw/unications : 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 the service and by reducing the minimum ? — Mr. 
 Hibherdine.) We have suggested redxiciny the minimum. 
 
 931. But only from 24 to 20?— With regard to 
 ■week-end telegrams we suggested them in 1893 but we 
 were stopped doing it by tlie British Government. 
 
 932. What is yom- view as to the reduction of the 
 minimum from 20 to 12 ? — I do not think we ought to 
 go below 20. 
 
 933. Can you give the reason ? — It would bring in 
 too niany business telegrams. We must think of our 
 shareliolders as well as the social pul^lic, and you can 
 see by the figaires we have given you that there is an 
 enormous amount of commercial work sent at deferred 
 rate, and also in week-end telegrams. 
 
 934. Certainly, but that may also be new traffic 
 although it is cou^mercial i' — A portion of it is new 
 ti'affic ; as I said .just now a portion of it is from small , 
 tradespeople and small merchants. 
 
 935. Who would not send at the fuU rate ?— That 
 is so; they would not send their orders; they would 
 give their orders to the agent and the agent would send 
 them in his code. Now Ijy means of the deferi-ed and 
 week-end they send them direct. 
 
 930. I think public opinion in Australia is I'athei' 
 impi'essed by the fact that since 1902 there has been no 
 reduction of your full rate ? — (Sir John Pender.) But 
 then the reason for that is the laying of the Pacific 
 cable. 
 
 937. The effect of laying the Pacific cable has been 
 to keep up rates and not to reduce them H — {Mr. Hlhber- 
 dine.) Certainly, that is our view. (Sir John Pender.) 
 We can show it. There is the agreement which was 
 made with Australia. If the traffic went by one com- 
 bination at the present time the rate of traffic is suffi- 
 cient under the agi'eement we made to lirLng that rate 
 di)wn from 3.s-. to 2«. (id. at the present time. (Mr. Hibber- 
 din"..) We might give a very short history of the 
 Australian rates. 
 
 938. Yes. — We made our first agreement based on 
 standard revenue with Australasia in 1891 when we 
 reduced the rata to 4s. a word. That was done in 
 conjunction with four Australian Colonies, they bear- 
 ing half the loss caused by the reduction. At the 
 end of two years and a quarter, the loss was 27,000L 
 and they decided to go back again to 4s. 9cZ. We went 
 back to 4s. 9(?.. and there was no loss. In 1899 we 
 wanted more accommodatiim, more calile capacity than 
 we had. We had lieeu negotiating to lay a cal)le by the 
 Pacific ; we did not see our way to do it because we 
 wished to keep our cables more in our own waters 
 through South Africa, and also in connection with 
 India. We made another arrangement with Australia 
 undei- which we agreed to reduce our rate on the first 
 of Jaiuiary 1901 to 3.<!. fid. It came down in 1902 to 
 3s. owing to the growth of traffic. Then the traffic of 
 course left us and we used our new Australian caljles 
 for other traffic to a very large extent from the Straits, 
 China, Ac. If the Australian traffic had all i^assed 
 by our lines, at the end of 1909 the average revenue 
 would have been 327,000/. Now the standard revenue 
 was 330,000Z., and there is no doubt that having received 
 within 2,500/. of our standard revenue we shoiild have 
 reduced the rate to 2s. (if/, a word on the 1st January. 
 1910. The three years' average for 1910 would have 
 been 339,000/.: therefore we should have been bound 
 under our agreement to have come down to 2s. (>(/. on 
 the 1st January, 1911, probably, as we said, in 1910. 
 
 939. You have told us that it is impossiljle to 
 contemplate the introduction of daily cable letters to 
 Australia : can yon tell us why ? — It is owing to the 
 difference in time over our lines in fact, we are perfectly 
 willing to admit that we could not ciirry the traffic 
 we do now if Greenwich time existed all over the 
 world. Naturally, (3n homeward traffic one traffic follows 
 the other through our lines. On outward ti'affic the 
 Aiisti-alian has to be got through first because it is 
 sooner day there than in other places, and the other 
 traffic all follows in rotation after that ; so that in a 
 great number of cases our cables in the East are full 
 up with local traffic, that is day traffic, when our cables 
 on this side are emi^ty ; and the same the reverse way, 
 our caliles here may b(! full up. and the cables out in 
 K 2U830 
 
 the East may be practically empty of traffic during 
 their night. To get day letters through we have got 
 no vacant time at all. 
 
 94(J. In other words you have, roughly speaking, no 
 peaks and no troughs :■- — No ; we have to provide for 
 Ixjoms of traffic anil that kind of thing. 
 
 941. But your luie is a level line Instead of having 
 high peaks and deep troughs ? — Certainly ; taken as a 
 whole ; that is, each cable has its o^vn peaks natui-ally, 
 but taking the line as a whole, we are level. 
 
 942. What is the reason for refusa! of r(>gistered 
 addresses for week-end cable letters ? — Because the 
 Post Office were unable to deliver letters addressed 
 to code telegraphic addresses. 
 
 943. You would be willing to see that done ? — Our 
 proposal of senfling everything by wire would overcome 
 that. 
 
 944. I have only one further question : about the 
 admission of dictionar}' code words in deferred messages, 
 is it in your opinion impossible to have an intermediate 
 stage between the complicated cipher and plain 
 language messages i-' — W^e think so. I have a note 
 about that. The experience of our (companies in 
 accepting messages in code words limited to dictionary 
 words was that it was practically impossible to decide 
 which were dictionary words and which were not in 
 the eight langviages allowed to be used, and the com- 
 jjanies will object very strongly to have the difficulties 
 that were then experienced with the piiblic revived. 
 You have no idea of the trouble we had at our counters 
 with the jjublic about deciding which were absolutely 
 dictionary words and which were not. 
 
 945. What prevents yom- having an agreed 
 dictionary ? — Because yon have got to have an agreed 
 dictionary for every language, and a man comes along 
 and says, " This is an ordinary word." The languages 
 are continually having new words invented. That was 
 one of the difficidties we came to. 
 
 94t!. Would it be imjiossible for you to have an 
 Eastern dictij)nary P — I think so ; another point is 
 that we do not want to bring in any code for deferred 
 messages ; that would simply mean that our rate would 
 be reduced by one half at once, and we are not prepai'ed 
 for that. We are experiencing very great difficulty even 
 with pronounceable combinations. A man will say 
 '■ This is a pronounceable combination," and we cannot 
 pronounce it. He will say, '• You would pronounce it 
 if you were a Pole." 
 
 947. The agreed dictionary would prevent that 'i — 
 That was tried ; we had an agreed code which was to 
 be prepared at the International Telegraph Office at 
 Berne. It took about seven or eight years to finish 
 and publish and everyl)ody thought it was going to 
 overcome all these difficulties, but the Chambers of 
 Commerce strongly objected to it, and it was brought 
 up for consideration at the liondon Conference of 190.!. 
 and the Postmaster- General at the time, Mr. Austen 
 Chamberlain, came down to the conference and said he 
 could not allow that dictionary to be used because 
 there was such strong opposition from the Chambers 
 of Commerce to be bound by any set book. Therefore 
 the result was that the conference recommended its 
 use as having been prepared after five or six years or 
 seven years of work, and it is simply now a recommended 
 code by the International Conference. Of course I 
 might remark that there is a gi'eat numlier of merchants 
 who have spent 5,000/., 10,000/., 15.000/., and 2O,00(l/. 
 in the compilation of their codes. Those people have 
 reduced their cost of caliling to a very small amount 
 of money; it is less than a penny a word to Australia. 
 
 948. The class of sender whose case I am consider- 
 ing is the occasional sender of defen-ed i* — We try to 
 overcome that by having a social code compiled, and we 
 keep now a copy of the Social Code, which is a fairly 
 good code, at every one of our stations. A member of 
 the pul)lic can go into any of our stations where we 
 ileal direct with the public and use this code ; he can 
 have the word " Social " sent free on the message he 
 sends, and when we receive that message say, from 
 Adelaide to London, we decode the message and 
 deliver it to thi; addressee for hira. Although that 
 advantage has been put before the public, and we have
 
 50 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pesber, k.c.m.g., and 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. 
 
 l^Oversea Communications : 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 advertised it. although om- Chairman h:us mentioned it 
 many times at the general meeting, and although we 
 put advertisements in the papers, it is not used to any 
 extent a.t all. 
 
 949. The sender has then to send at full rates ? — 
 He pays then full i-ates. 
 
 9.50. {Sir Rider Uiigijard.) Do you tlunk the clerks 
 at yoiu- various offices bring this social code to the 
 notice of the sendei-s of messages ? — Oh. yes. lui- 
 doubtedly. 
 
 951. Always ? — I think so. 
 
 952. Because otherwise, the ordiuai-y sender would 
 know nothing about it r — We have cards put up in all 
 the offices. 
 
 953. Such cards may or may not be .^eeu ? — My own 
 experience at the stations I have lieen in on our own 
 line is that it is advertised and the social people are 
 told about it. 
 
 yS-i. Your clerks ai'e all instructed and given 
 inducements to bring it to the notice of anylxidy 
 sending a social message ? — Certainly. 
 
 955. {Sir Alfred Bateman.) I have one or two 
 questions about i-ates ; I gather that there are two 
 policies. Ton say that you reduce rates whenever 
 experience has shown that the reduction is likely to 
 produce sufficient new ti'affic to recoup the loss ? — Yes. 
 
 956. And you have a standard revenue agreement 
 under which rates were reduced automatically ? — 
 {Sir John Pender.) "We have had several of those 
 agreements, and they work very satisfactorily. In fact, 
 taking one agi-eement which we made with the Indian 
 Government some years ago by which the Indian 
 GoveiTunent undertook the liability of 44,0i.i0/. a year 
 for 10 years, the total they paid on that arrangement 
 for the 10 yeai"s was 26,500/. But they came in and 
 helped us ; that is a different thing. We take a shai-e 
 of the loss, and the Government takes the other share 
 of the loss. That helps us materially. 
 
 957. But the result to the sender is a reduction? — 
 Yes. 
 
 958. It is partly paid for by the company ? — Yes. 
 
 959. The Government takes no liability ? — Not in 
 every case, because in some cases, for instance with 
 the Cape, a reduction takes place only on a cei-tain 
 volume of traffic having been attained. Then it goes 
 further ; if it gets up to a certain amoimt which is 
 recognised by both sides to be sufficient to fiU a cable 
 then thei-e is a big jump in the next figiu-e of the 
 reduction becau.se they take into consideration the 
 extra capital required to lay cables to cari-y the work 
 for another .reduction. The cost of extm Ciipital is 
 also taken into eonsidei-atiou. 
 
 960. I wanted to ask you about the Australian 
 lutes ; you have contended that if we had not a Pacific 
 Cable Boai'd you would have reduced to 2s. 6</. a year or 
 two ago 'i — Yes, not only that ; I go a step further, and 
 I say that if there had been a working an-augement 
 or a pool between the two companies I think it is 
 quite possible then that the rate might have been 
 reduced. 
 
 961. You mean the working expenditure would 
 have been decreased so much ? — Xo, I do not say the 
 working expendituie. but it would have been in the 
 interests of both then to work as one, and one could 
 hand the traffic to the other and the other hand it to 
 the one. It saves a sudden rash on cme company, 
 and the traffic works far moi-e evenly. For instance, 
 the Pacific Cable Board have been very fortunate in 
 having no breakdown of their cable, but they have had 
 breakdowns of their land lines across the Continent 
 and without any notice we get that traffic thl•o^^■n on 
 to us at once. There is a delay all roiuul then. 
 
 962. But if you had not had the Pacific cable 
 surely you would have been overdone, beciiuse you 
 have said also that very often you have got as much 
 as you can do now ? — Yes. (Mr. Hihherdine.) It would 
 have meant that the Aden-Colombo cable would have 
 been laid thiee or foiu- years ago. 
 
 96o. You would have had to lay another cable ? — 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 964. Then that would mean an inci-eased capital, 
 w^uld it not ; you would want to get a large levenue 
 
 from that? — (Sir John Pender.) I do not think in 
 the Australian agreement thei-e was any arrangement 
 for increased capital. (Mr. Hibherdine.) We have had 
 two agreements with Australia and two with South 
 Africa. With Austi-alia our fij-st standard revenue 
 was 237,000?. Then we laid the Cocos cable, and the 
 st;indard revenue was increased to 330,000/. to allow 
 for the extra expense of laying the Cocos cable. Then 
 if we had had any more need for capacity we should 
 have had to lay the cable without any extra standard 
 revenue. 
 
 965. But you do maintain you would have reduced 
 the charge to 2s. 6d.?—(Sir John Pender.) We should 
 have been forced to under the agreement. 
 
 966. As regards the charges in comparison with the 
 Pacific Cable Boai'd they are practicaUy the same, are 
 they not ? — With the exception of the press. (Mr. 
 Hibherdine.) The charges for the Pacific Cable Board 
 now are the same for Great Britain and for some of 
 the places on the Continent, but the Pacific Cable 
 Board are cheaper to Canada and the United States 
 than we ai-e, :uid we are cheaper to Fi-ance and many 
 European countries. There is one class of traffic we 
 have refused, at present at all events, to can-y. that is 
 defeiTed press. They can-y the whole of the deferred 
 press, 
 
 967. You ai-e in competition — in a way — we found 
 it in Austi-alia, and iu advertising your own advantages 
 I suppose you claim the special facilities which you 
 give ? — We claim we are the best route, of course. 
 
 968. What do you claim you do better than they 
 do ? — One of the things we claim especially is that we 
 have got more than one cable. We have four cables 
 landed in Austi-alia. The Pacific Calile Board have 
 got one. 
 
 969. Only one other question, I did not quite imder- 
 stand as regards the length of cable ; I think you said 
 that the cost was increased — after a certain point I sup- 
 pose? (Sir John Pender.) No. For instance, when you 
 lay a cable of 1 ,000 knots you can can-y very much moi-e 
 traffic over that cable by putting 1 3< > pounds of copper 
 and 130 pounds of gutta-percha per knot into that 
 cable. K you continued that cable to something like 
 2.401) or 2,800 knots you woidd have to put about 
 450 pounds of copper and 400 pounds of gutta-percha 
 or something approximate to that ; and it is a question 
 then if that heavier cable would be of the same speed 
 as the other. 
 
 970. But is not that advantage of the shorter length 
 reduced by the increased terminal e.xpenses ? — You 
 mean if you can cut the cable up you reduce the cost 
 of the cable ? 
 
 971. No : if you have a short cable and you have 
 terminal expenses at each end — if you have a cable of 
 l.i'OO knots as compai-ed with one of 2,(.i00 knots — are 
 the tei-minal expenses gi-eater Ln the case of the short 
 length of 1,00(1 knots? — It depends uix)n what traffic 
 you can pick up on the way. If you can call at a 
 l)lace where there is ti-affic, then you can pay your 
 office expenses, 
 
 972. The office expenses can be paid out of local 
 traffic ? — Yes, I mean if you get the local traffic ; at 
 St. Helena and Ascension, of eoui-se. thei"e is abso- 
 lutely no traffic tti be picked up at all. 
 
 973. That is a dead loss ? — Yes, 
 
 974. (Mr. Campbell.) Could you tell me what is 
 your total ti-affic to Austi-alia — the total amoimt of 
 words con.stituting the Australian business ? — (Mr. 
 Hibherdine.) I think Sir Hem-y Primrose gave a state- 
 ment of our ti-affic combined with the Pacific, Ixith given 
 together; we quite agree to those figures. The traffic 
 Dili the Eastern last year was 2,000,000 ordinary words 
 with Europe. 
 
 975. Yoiu- traffic -wds 2.000,000 words ?— Yes, of 
 the total ti-affic of 2,898.000. 
 
 976. Supposing you had had the volume of traffic 
 thiit the Pacific Cable Board had (that is the con- 
 tingency on which youi- reduction to 2s. iid. depended^, 
 would you have been able to handle that with the 
 Colombo line ? — Cei-tainly. 
 
 977. Then we could safely say that you have got a 
 margin of somewhere about one-third ? — In that case
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 51 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pendee. k.c.m.g., and 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBERDlNE. 
 
 [Oversea Communications : 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 we should have laid our Colombo line three or four 
 
 years ago ; we are laying our Colombo line now for 
 other trafSi;. more especially for the China, Japan. 
 Straits, and Dutch Indies traffic. 
 
 97S. Wlien you were aslied by the Chairman to give 
 a possible margin, I do not think you gave any reply 
 which was definite, but we can take it from what you 
 have said that at any rate you will have a margin with 
 the Colombo and Aden line of considerably over one- 
 third of your present Australian traffic ? — Yes. 
 
 979. Where you went into proportions of private 
 business and commercial business, or commercial busi- 
 ness and social business, in your messages, you included 
 press messages as commercial business P — We treat 
 press messages outside that ; they are not included in 
 these percentages at all. 
 
 980. What proportion of yt.)ur business is press 
 business ? — I do not think I have got that figure ; it is 
 not a very large figure, at all events. (Sir John Pender.) 
 We have not got it, but we shall be very glad to send 
 it: we can have it worked out. (Mr. Hihhr.rdiiie.) It 
 varies, so that it would not be a fair figure to take 
 if we had it only for one year. Press traffic is sent 
 when there is news required. Press traffic is not sent 
 when news is not required. That applies to home- 
 ward traffic from the Colonies, not so much to outward 
 traffic. On outward traffic, if there is a steady demand 
 for news, it goes ; on the homeward traffic London 
 papers do not want it unless there is something 
 special. 
 
 981. Are press messages all plain language 
 messages ? — All plain language. 
 
 982. By the way, who are the parties to the Inter- 
 national Telegraphic Convention which is mentioned 
 here in one place as regulating the rates y — The parties 
 to the International Telegraph Convention are every 
 State in the world except tlie United States and 
 Canada. There are one or two small States in South 
 America which are not signatories ; but Canada and 
 the United States are the only important States that 
 are not signatories, and they are not signatories because 
 the interior telegraph lines belong to private companies, 
 and not to the Government. The Postal Convention, 
 which is on all-foui-s with the Telegraph Convention, 
 the United States and Canada are signatories to. 
 
 983. Does that Convention fix the rates at which 
 cable messages are sent ? — The rates are arranged at 
 each meeting of the conference ; they can be arranged 
 in between, but, as a rvde, all alterations of tariff are 
 fixed at these meetings, which used to take place every 
 three years, and were then extended. to five, and at the 
 last conference, in Lisbon, they extended the period to 
 seven. On that point there has been some discussion, 
 I believe, as to the power of one or other route to 
 reduce their rate in competition. 
 
 984. That is what I wanted. — I made a copy of the 
 regulations in the Convention on that subject, and it 
 reads as follows : — " Alterations of the charges or of 
 " the methods of application of the tariffs which 
 " may be agreed upon between interested States by 
 " virtue of paragraph 4 of Article 10 and Article 17 of 
 •• the Convention, must have for their object and effect. 
 '• not to create competition in charges between existing 
 " routes, but rather to open to the public as many 
 " routes as possible at equal charges ; and the neces- 
 " sary combinations shall be so made that the terminal 
 " rates of the Administrations of origin and desti- 
 " nation are the same, no matter what route is 
 " followed " ; that is to say. the terminal administra- 
 tion on either side must have the same terminal rate 
 for all routes. That is laid down as one of the obliga- 
 tions of the signatories, and that the total rate by 
 every route shall be the same rate. If a new route is 
 opened by any one of the signatories to the Convention, 
 that must not compete ; you must not have a reduced 
 rate to the existing routes. In the same way, when 
 the Pacific line was opened, under that clause they 
 opened at the same rate as that of the Eastern Exten- 
 sion Company, 3s. a word. 
 
 98.5. Every party except the Canadian Government 
 and the United States, in respect of their land lines, 
 are bound by the Convention ? — That is so. 
 
 986. And all cable companies ■'—We are bound ; 
 one of the clauses in all our landing rights is that we 
 shall abide by and carry out the the regulations of the 
 International Convention. 
 
 987. In the case of making an agreement like this 
 has that agreement necessarily to be submitted first to 
 the Convention ? — No. 
 
 988. That provides for reduction ot rates? — You 
 mean the AustraUan revenue agreement? 
 
 989. Yes. — At that time we were the only route to 
 Austi-alia ; there was no one else to consider. 
 
 99(». In the case of there Ijeing only a single route, 
 you can reduce yom- rates as you please ? — Certainly, 
 if there is no one else. 
 
 991. In regard to paragraph .'') of your letter of 
 Kith October, and the suggestion that there should be 
 closer co-operation, you say that you arc willing to 
 co-operate ; has there been a definite refusal from the 
 Pacific Cable Board to co-operate ?—(S/c John Pender.) 
 Yes. 1 think at one time we got pretty near, but I 
 think the Pacific Cable Board wanted more than we 
 ciinsidered their fair proportion. 
 
 992. It has been a disagreement over terms ? — It 
 was a disagreement on the terms. (Mr. Hihhcrdine.) 
 We are carrying on ordinary traffic, two-thirds of the 
 Australian traffic, and the Pacific one-third, and we 
 wanted naturally to base our agreement on the liasis of 
 the actual traffic being carried. They wanted half and 
 half. I think that difficulty might have been over- 
 come, but there was a very strong feeling, and is now, 
 I believe, in Australia, against any an-angemeut being 
 made between the Pacific Cable Board and ourselves. 
 As far as we are concerned, we have not asked for an 
 arrangement; we say it would be a benefit, but the 
 people it would Ijenefit most would be the Pacific Cable 
 Board. Ijecause they have one line, and if they are 
 intex-rupted they would lose all their revenue. As fai- 
 as we are concerned, we have several lines, and there- 
 fore, if we are interrupted, we do not lose our revenue. 
 
 993. Are week-end cables vii'i the Eastern delivered 
 in Adelaide on the Tuesday ? — They are delivered in 
 Adelaide on the Tuesday. 
 
 994. It is the same thing really with the week-end 
 cables vii'f the Pacific? — Yes. 
 
 99-5. What is the origin of that preposterous 
 arrangement ? Who made it ? — (Hir John Pender.) It 
 was made simply because it was considered that week- 
 end traffic might interfere with the other traffic if it 
 were made too fast a service. It was giving a gi'eat con- 
 sideration to give the reduced rate for it. It was done 
 for the social sender, and not for the commercial sender, 
 and there was a fear of the commercial sender taking 
 advantage of it. That is really the bottom of it. 
 
 99H. I think, in reply to Sir Alfred Bateman. 
 Mr. Hibberdine, you said your charges from France 
 were cheaper than the Pacific Caljle Board's charges to 
 Australia ; is that so ? — {Mr. Hibberdine.) That is so. 
 
 997. Is no advantage taken of that in sending 
 messages to France ? — We obtain most of the traffic 
 between France and Australia naturally. 
 
 998. What I mean is, is there no advantage taken 
 of that in England by sending messages to Fi-ance and 
 having them cabled from France ? — I am afraid you 
 have misunderstood me. By our line the charge from 
 Australasia to France and to Great Britain is the same, 
 but the Pacific Cable Board's rate to France is higher 
 than ours because they cany the message to Great 
 Britain and then there is the extra payment from 
 Great Britain to France, whereas we have our own 
 cables to France at Marseilles, and we deUver messages 
 direct to the French Government, and we ai'e able to 
 charge the same rate as to Great Britain. 
 
 999. What is your charge from France to Austra- 
 lasia? — 3s. a word the same as to Great Britain. 
 
 1000. (Sir Rider Hnggard.) You were telling us 
 about certain proposals which your Company made 
 which would have had the effect of very much 
 simplifying and reducing the cost of these week-end 
 messages, which proposals I think you said were made 
 in Januai-y? — January 1st 1913. 
 
 1001. Can you tell \is why they were not accepted, 
 being, if I may say so, obviously so admh-able, and so 
 
 G 2
 
 52 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 
 
 li yovembei- 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pendek, k.c.m.g., aud 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. 
 
 [_Oi.vrsea Communications 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 much to the interests of the general public ?— The 
 great objection was to a five word charge. 
 
 1002. By whom ? — Our proposal was to charge so 
 much for five words, that is to say, we thought it was a 
 simple way of working it. taking Australia for example, 
 to charge 3s. for every five words, or in other words tc> 
 give five words for one full i-ate word. Now most of 
 the people thought it was better to give a word rate 
 pure and simple at one fourth of the full rate. 
 
 1003. Excuse my interrupting : Whom do you mean 
 hy " most of the people " ? — The Post Office ; we had a 
 meeting at the Post Office. 
 
 1004. Do you me;iu the officials or the representa- 
 tives of other parties ? — The representatives all together 
 and principally the Pacific Cable Board. 
 
 1005. That is what I wanted to know. — As part of 
 the negotiations we gave up our suggestion to charge 
 five words for one and agreed to charge one fourth 
 rates. 
 
 1006. You were ovemiled on the matter of the five 
 words ? — Yes, we wanted to make a compromise and 
 we compromised upon that. That is one of the points 
 we compromised on. We have not compromised yet 
 on the "Tuesday" or the delivery direct to the 
 receiver. 
 
 1007. Am 1 right in understanding that practically 
 on the motion of the Pacific Cable Board those sugges- 
 tions were overruled ? — I should not like to say that. 
 
 1008. My colleagues and myself do not quite under- 
 stand you ; first you said the British Post Office and 
 then the Pacific Cable Board i' — I would rather you 
 asked the Post Office for this evidence. 
 
 1009. I am afraid 1 must ask the question ':' — The 
 Post Office had a meeting at which the Secretary of 
 the Post Office took the chair and there were certain 
 minutes made. I think if you had those minutes 
 before you they would give you the particulars of the 
 discussion which took place. 
 
 1010. Am I to understand you would prefer to 
 answer no further questions ou that point? — It is a 
 matter which is under discussion at the present time ; 
 therefore it is sub judice. One does not like to answer 
 questions when a matter has not been settled. 
 
 1011. May I ask is it under active discussion or is 
 it in a state of suspended animation? — {Sir Joint 
 Pender.) I am afraid the latter. (Mr. Hibhcrdine.) We 
 wrote to the Post Office on the 11th October last and 
 we are waiting a reply to that letter. 
 
 1012. Of coui'se a month is not long to wait for au 
 
 answer, but ? — 1 may say I have written a private 
 
 letter to one of the assistant secretaries of the Post 
 Office. 
 
 1013. A private letter? — A semi-official letter: I 
 wrote to ask him when we should have a reply to our 
 official letter. 
 
 1014. (Chairmcm.) Could you read us your official 
 letter ? — I do not think I had better read it ; it is 
 putting certain proposals forward to the Post Office, 
 more especially about Austi-alia and South Africa, to 
 know if they agree with them. I may say the Post 
 Office were particularly liberal, I think, in coming 
 forward and agreeing to accept under a fai-thing a 
 word on all week-end telegrams which were handed over 
 to them. 
 
 1015. (Sir Rider Haygard.) If you do not feel at 
 liberty to read to lis this letter could you tell us as 
 nearly as you think proper its substance ? — (Sir John, 
 Pender.) I think it is a suggestion — there is a difficulty 
 about this — it is a fresh suggestion which may be 
 under consideration with the Post Office or may not, 
 but we have not yet heard — we have had no answer to 
 the letter. 
 
 1016. I cannot press you further, liut I might 
 put this question to you ; ai-e we right in understanding 
 that so far as you are concerned you are both willing 
 and anxious to simplify this week-end telegi'am business 
 to the advantage of the public ?- — (Mr. Hibberdine.) 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 1017. And that it is no fault of yours, whose ever 
 fault it may be, that this has pot been done ? — 
 
 ■Certainly 
 
 1018. Might I put one more question on that point ; 
 have not you it in your power to do it yourselves, and 
 if you did do it would not the result of that be to 
 oblige everybody to follow suit ? — We do not wish to 
 bring in week-end telegi-ams unless we have a definite 
 set of regulations. We do not want to start week-end 
 telegrams with several places unless we know for 
 certain what the regulations are to be. As we cannot 
 have these regulations unless the Government give 
 their consent to them, we have got to wait until we get 
 tbat consent. 
 
 1019. You must have governmental consent ? — We 
 should not like to do it without the Government 
 consent. 
 
 1020. You have not it in yoiir own power to make 
 your own regulations about it ? — I do not think so. 
 
 1021. Therefore it comes to this, that here you are 
 anxious and willing and you are depending upon 
 Government consent to carry out these operations : 
 Is that so ? — That is what it amoimts to officially. 
 (Sir John Pe»(7t'r.) May I add this : we have other 
 traffics. The Pacific Cable Board have only got their 
 own traffic from point to point. We have traffics all 
 over the world. Therefore \\'hatever arrangement is 
 come to we have to consider the different parts and 
 different rates, whereas they lia\'e only to consider the 
 two points. We want to arrange some uniform basis 
 so that it would be an adequate aiTangement for all the 
 different places we go to. That is really the tmth of 
 the matter. 
 
 1022. Pei-haps I might put a supplementary question 
 on this : Have you any reasonable prospect of these 
 emendations and beneficent altei-ations being earned 
 out at an approximately near date ? — (Mr. Hibberdinc.) 
 I think we have. 
 
 Ilt23. One moie ; at present I understood one of 
 j'ou gentlemen to say that very hard cases can arise 
 imder the existing regulations — I mean with reference 
 to the fact that actually you maj' have, in a case of 
 life or death, a cable in your office, and may not be 
 able to communicate that cable to the unfortunate 
 recipient? — (Sir John Pender.) That is the case. 
 
 1024. In your opinion, does not that amount, or 
 may it not amount, in certain cases to a positive 
 cruelty ? — Remember this, that the applicant coming 
 for that telegram can get his telegram if he chooses to 
 pay the full rates. 
 
 1025. I repeat the question putting it in this way. 
 Supposing that applicant is not in the position to find 
 several pounds to pay the full rates, would it not be 
 an actual cruelty ? — I quite agree with you ; we do not 
 like to be in the position. It is really this: it is a 
 case in which the Government are powerful enough 
 to do it; we as a company are not. That is really the 
 bottom of it. 
 
 . 1020. I only wanted to know the facts, — {Mr. 
 Mibberdine.) In one or two cases of that description 
 we have delivered them on Monday and taken the 
 risk. 
 
 1027. May I pass on ; I just want to ask you a 
 question or two about South Africa. Could you tell 
 us now any details as to your Soutli African traffic 
 and as to the histoiy of the calile rates ? — When we 
 opened with South Africa there was a very small bxisi- 
 ness. We opened in December 1879 at a tariff of 
 8s. 9d. per word, and that was carried by cable from 
 Aden to Zanzibar and down to Durban, first calling 
 at Mozambique and Lourenfo Marques. The first year's 
 traffic onlyyielded (>8,0u0/. Thenthere were disturbances 
 in South Africa and we went up to 142.1100/. Then we 
 went down to 90,000?. ; we gradually rose bit by bit to 
 1888 when we had 167,000/. of traffic. In 1889 the 
 goldfields were discovered and oiu' ti-affic rose at once 
 by ItiO.OOii/. to 262.000/. — there was a boom. It went 
 down again for a few years. 
 
 1028. At the same i-ate of 8». 9d. or whatever it 
 was ? — Yes. it went down in 1894 when we were 
 earning 207,000/. a year. Then on the 1st April 1895 
 we reduced our i-ate to 5s. a word and we opened the 
 new cable from Loanda to Cape Town to give an 
 alternative route aud to prevent as far as possible 
 total inteiTuption of communication. In 1896 the
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pendeb, k.c.m.g., and 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBBBDINE. 
 
 [Oversea Communications 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 traffic was 360,000L, and it went down to 278,000?. and 
 265,000Z. in 1897 and 1898 ; naturally when the war 
 broke out, and there was a large amount of Govern- 
 ment traffic, it went up very largely, to 383,000L in 
 1899 at the rate of 4s. a word. In 1900 we earned the 
 highest revenue of any at that rate, 4.51,000L 
 
 1029. That was because of the war .' — Yes. In 
 1902 we earned 463,0002. at 3s. per word. That is when 
 the war ceased. The effect of these large increases was 
 to bring our tariffs down ; we made the standard revenue 
 agreement in 1901, and the tariffs came down to 3s. 6d. 
 in 1901, 3s. in 1902. and 2s. 6d. in 1903. The first 
 complete year of the 2s. 6d. rate when the Boer War 
 was altogether over gave us 389,000L 
 
 1030. At half -a-ci-own ? — Yes. Since then there 
 has been a steady decrease, 363,000Z., 326,000/., 
 304,000?., 252,000?., and 238.000?. In 1909 we went up 
 again to 287,000?., and in 1910 to 290,000?., and last 
 yeai- (1912) we were down to 278,000?. As we stated 
 in oiu' letter we have over 100,000?. less revenue at the 
 present moment than we had in the first year of the 
 half-crown rate. 
 
 1031. I suppose you attribute that rather to local 
 depression in South Africa than to anything to do with 
 the rate ? — Undoubtedly, local depression. 
 
 1032. That is how it stands at present — a 2s. 6(?. 
 rate and a falling revenue ? — Yes. 
 
 1033. Does the system of week-end cable letters 
 and deferred telegrams apply to South Africa ? — 
 Certainly ; we brought it into operation with South 
 Africa before Australia. 
 
 1034. In fact they have any advantages that are to 
 be had now ? — South Africa has exactly the same 
 advantages as Australia in every point. 
 
 1035. (Mr. Bowrimj.) There is a route to Australia 
 by way of Fao, is there not? — Yes. 
 
 1036. Will you tell me, does the Eastern conti'ol 
 that route entirely ? — No, we do not control any part 
 of it. The history of the Fao route is rather a peculiar 
 one. It was the first route ever opened between 
 Europe and India, in 1865 the Indian Government 
 wished to get into telegraphic communication with 
 Great Britain and the Indian Government laid a cable 
 from Kiuachi up the Persian Gulf to Fao ; the Turkish 
 Govei-nment made a land line from Scutari on the 
 Asiatic side to Fao to meet it. That route never 
 worked satisfactorily. I have known a message go 
 through in four or five hours, but the average is more 
 like two or three days. 
 
 1037. (Mr. Campbell.) What is the cause of it ?— 
 Bad working on the Turkish lines ; Asiatic operators 
 are not the same as European operators. 
 
 1038. (Mr. Bowring.) That is on the Turkish land 
 lines ? — Yes ; the result of that was that the Teheran 
 route was opened through Persia in 1868, and our 
 route to India was opened in 1870. The Turkish route 
 had been working at a very cheap rate, and at the 
 Conference of Rome in 1871-2, the Titrks asked that 
 their route might be cheaper than ours. They said : 
 " It is no good oui- competing against you at equal 
 " rates, we should get no traffic at all ; if we have a 
 " cheaper rate we might get some traffic." It was dis- 
 cussed for over a week at the Conference in Rome, all 
 the Government officials being present, and it resulted 
 in the Turkish route being allowed to be a cheaper 
 route. That is contrary to that regulation I read just 
 now, but it was specially allowed by the Conference 
 that the Turkish route should be cheaper than the 
 route nii'( Teheran or via Eastern, and it has remained 
 to the present day. 
 
 1039. I understand the rate by way of Fao is 
 2s. 9(Z. against 3s. by yom- route or via the Pacific ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1040. Can you tell me what traffic the Fao route 
 does ? — It takes about a quarter of 1 per cent. 
 
 1041. On account of the detention mostly ? — Yes, 
 that is of the Australian traffic ; the Indian traffic is 
 slightly higher. 
 
 1042. Are we to understand that the detention of 
 the deferred messages at the offices is only caused by 
 the Pacific Board insisting upon it ? — Do you mean 
 the week-end telegrams ? 
 
 1043. Yes. — ^I would not like to say " yes " to 
 that. 
 
 1044. Are you only waiting their assent to deliver 
 them earlier ? — -We are waiting their assent and we 
 would deliver them earlier. 
 
 1045. And directly you have that I think you would 
 deUver them as early as you could ? — If we had an 
 official letter from the British Government saying they 
 ought to be delivered on the Monday morning, we shonld 
 do it at once. 
 
 1046. And you would be glad to do it ? — -Certainly. 
 (Sir .John Pender.) I would like to add that we have 
 had a meeting with the Post Office, and it was not only 
 the Pacific Cable Board ; there was a general feeling 
 with all the companies conceraed, the Atlantic com- 
 panies and all, that those messages should not be 
 delivered before the Tuesday. (Mr. Hibberdine.) The 
 Atlantic companies began the first week-end telegrams, 
 and they delivered them on Tuesday. We followed 
 suit. As soon as we began delivering on Tuesday, 
 the Atlantics altered their practice and delivered them 
 on the Monday. (Sir John Pender.) The Pacific 
 Gable Board are strongly opposed to the Monday. 
 
 1047. I think now the Atlantic Companies deliver 
 them practically as they get them, to get them out of 
 the way ? — Yes. 
 
 1048. There has been no pooling agreement between 
 the Pacific and Eastera to Australia? — No. 
 
 1049. Except on rates ? — Yes. 
 
 1050. Your rate was not reduced to 3s., I think, 
 until the Pacific cable was talked of ? — -It was reduced 
 11 months before the Pacific cable was laid. 
 
 1051. When it was arranged to be laid though ? — 
 That I do not know ; we had made the agreement 
 about the sliding scale before it was agreed to be laid. 
 
 1052. And under your Standard Revenue agree- 
 ment you would have reduced jow rate, whether the 
 Pacific cable had been laid or not ? — -Certainly. 
 
 1053. If the Pacific cable had not been laid you 
 would have given a further reduction on account of 
 greater revenue ? — We should have had it down to 
 2s. 6d. for a certainty. 
 
 1054. Can you teU me if there is much difference in 
 the speed of transmission between the long-distance 
 cables and the short ? — There is a very great difference, 
 and I can give you an example of that. On our 
 fastest cable from Great Britain to Vigo we can send 
 as much as 400 letters a minute. 
 
 1055. What distance is that? — -About 500 miles. 
 Our slowest cable is the comparatively small core one 
 between Aden and Zanzibar, and we do 100 letters a 
 minute there. 
 
 1056. What length is that?— About 2,000 miles. 
 That, of course, would be modified again by the size 
 of the core of the cable. For instance, the cable 
 between Rodriguez and Cocos is about 2,200 miles, 
 and we do 140 words a minute on that. (Sir John 
 Pender.) The capacity of the cable is totally diffei-ent. 
 
 1057. Increased by the core, you mean ? — (Mr. 
 Hibberdine.) By the size of the core, the amoimt of 
 copper. 
 
 1058. The larger the core ? — The greater the 
 
 can-ying capacity. 
 
 1059. Apparently you have found out by experience 
 that business men are very willing to pay long prices 
 for speed, and that they would sooner continue to pay 
 higher prices than have any reduction in the speed ? — 
 The large merchant would certainly prefer to pay the 
 higher rates, and not bring in the smaller merchants. 
 (Sir John Pender.) But over and above that, if you put 
 it to a man, " If I can give you an indifferent service 
 " at such and such a rate, or a first-class service at 
 " such and such a higher rate, which would you 
 •' prefer?" the big merchant would take the good 
 service at once. He wants a reduced i-ate, but 
 naturally he would insist on the same service at the 
 reduced rate. 
 
 1060. The speed is more important really to a 
 business man than cost ? — Speed and accuracy. (Mr. 
 Hibberdine.) Accui-acy comes first. 
 
 1061. They are willing to pay for speed on cables 
 much the same as on steamships ? — Yes. (Sir .John 
 
 C5 3
 
 54 
 
 DOMINIONS Royal commission 
 
 14 Noveinber 1913.] 
 
 Sii- J. Denison-Pesdee, k.c.m.g., 
 
 Mr. W. HlBBERDtSTE. 
 
 ;uid [Oi'ersea Cummunications : 
 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 Pender.) Tee, although, as I say, that is modified in 
 this way. that they know we will give them the same 
 efficiency at the lower rate, and thei-efore they are 
 always "crying for the lower i-<ite. If they do not 
 ^et efficiency, they come round to om- office, and there 
 is trouble. 
 
 1062. Is there any means knowii at present of 
 still fm-ther speeding up cables ? — I wiU not say there 
 is not. AVe have increased the speed of our cables, 
 some of the old cables very materially, in the last few 
 yeai-s, and at the present time we are working direct 
 to Alexaudria, and it not only increases the .speed, but 
 what is perhaps just as valuable, it reduces many chances 
 of en-or. Eveiy time a message is transmitted it is 
 liable to eiTor, and if we can work to Bombay with one 
 ti-ansmission, instead of, as we used to have years ago, 
 perhaps five, it will make a very material difference, 
 and we are taking all that into account. 
 
 lU6o. Ai-e you deterred in any way by the cost of 
 those newer speeding-up an-angements ? — Xever. 
 
 1(164. Cost does not enter into that ; you adopt the 
 veiy latest and mo.st approved system ? — At any cost 
 we keep our lines efficient. 
 
 1065. And you adopt the most modern methods in 
 every way ? — In every possible way. 
 
 1066. (Mr. Garnett.) May I just ask you one 
 question with regai-d to your statement about the 
 laying the Pacific cable preventing the reduction of 
 rates. Is it right to di-aw the general inference that 
 there is not a sufficient amount of work to go roimd 
 for lx)th companies, and that if both companies have 
 to be iTin on commercial lines, that circimistance 
 militates against this i-eduction, which you think 
 would have come if the Pacific cable had not been 
 made ? — Certainly. 
 
 106". You mentioned the fact that you have a 
 Social Code, and that anyone desiring to avail himself 
 of that code has the opportunity of being informed 
 about it at youi- various offices. May I ask if those 
 facilities equally obtain, .say, at little post offices in 
 the coimtry ? — No, because that is a Government 
 matter. If we could show anyone how he coidd send 
 a telegram at a reduced rate, we should always do it, 
 and so would oiu' staff in any pai-t of the world, and 
 not ti-y to get more money, in fact in many cases when 
 a man has come in we have suggested this code. 
 
 1068. I quite follow that, but I am thinking of a 
 man who perhaps has to telegi-aph to Australia, as I 
 do myself sometimes on social matters, from a small 
 covintry to^vn. I have constantly telegraphed in that 
 way. It is my own fault no doubt for not having 
 made myself acquainted with the facilities you give, 
 but in the post offices they do not indiciite that there 
 is anything of the sort ? — The post offices have not got 
 a code. {Mr. Hibherdine.) We asked them to have 
 them, and they pointed out that there was such a large 
 number of offices that to have a code at each office 
 would be practically impossible, and not only that, but 
 it would be impossible to instmct some of the uountrj- 
 postmistresses to explain the code, which is somewhat 
 technical and difficult to carry out. 
 
 1069. Then in practice it does come to this — that 
 tliis Social Code is not very lai-gely i-.sed, and it can 
 hardly be used at all, unless the indiWdual who wishes 
 to caV)le is within reach of your own office I' — Or unless 
 he has made a previous aiTangement with us. He can 
 send the message t<^ us V>y post, and we will send it on 
 for him. 
 
 1070. Do you think these facilities are generally 
 known':' — (Sir John Pender.) I do not say they are. 
 We do our Ijest. I do not say they are generally 
 known all over the coimtry, but the class of traffic is 
 ctirious. becatise if a man knows he has to communicate 
 with Austi-aUa over any period, he will perhaps look 
 about and seek for a book ; he may make inquiries in 
 that case, but as a nile in this class of ti-affic the man 
 -does not know that he is to commimicate with 
 Australia, he does it in a luiny, and then lie does not 
 make any special inquiries (very likely he has not time) 
 as to the cheapest plan. 
 
 1071. Having x-egard to the enonnous distance 
 from here jou would agree that it would be desirable 
 
 that this knowledge should be spi-ead as widely as 
 possible ? — Yes. we do all in oui' power to give every 
 facility without taking very much off our cajTying 
 capacity. 
 
 1072. But there is no obligation on the Post Office 
 to give any infonnation at all ? — No. 
 
 1073. Did you ask the Post Office about this 
 matter .' — (Jlfc. Hibherdine.) Yes, we did ask the Post 
 Office, and they said it was impi-acticable to do it, and 
 we agreed with them that it would be. 
 
 107-1. It is not a thing you could reasonably ask 
 them to do ? — No. 
 
 1075. One or two questions with regard to tlie 
 press ; have the reductions in recent years very largely 
 increased your press traffic ? — No. We have made 
 veiy lai-ge reductions for the press. We took 3hd. a 
 word between coast and coast, l^etween our stations in 
 Great Britain and the coasts of Africa and India, and 
 the result was that we expected to have a large traffic, 
 but, as a matter of fact, we have about the same traffic 
 as before. Egypt is in a peculiar position, because in 
 Egj^st you have a large population in the winter time 
 which wants European news, and therefore it is sent 
 out to them. The reduction from Is. to Shd. is an 
 enormous reduction. In South Africa the reduction 
 from Is. to 3hd. has resulted in a traffic which was 
 880,000 words being reduced to 380.000. but that is 
 not a fair way perhaps to put it. The real reason of 
 that reduction is. that thei-e was competition among 
 the newspapers and instead of one news service serving 
 the whole of South Africa, as it does now, for some 
 three or four years thei^e were two services both 
 sending the same news and both paying us. We 
 carried the traffic, but we would much rather have 
 caiTied only one service. The same thing is taking 
 place in Austi-alia at the present time. For years in 
 Australia there was only one service, that of the 
 " Melbourne Age." Now there are two services, and 
 consequently the Australian press ti-affic has almost 
 doubled, simply because tlie newspapers are competing 
 against one another, and that has nothing to do with 
 the reduction of rate. 
 
 1076. Making allowance for the fact that there are 
 two sei-vices, is it your exp>erienc« that in the bulk 
 the amount 'of press news transmitted from this side 
 to Atistralasia is on the increase or not ? — Of com-se 
 when you say " the bulk " you mean the actual news 
 sent 'f 
 
 1077. Yes. — I should not think it is increasing 
 very materially ; it may have increased because of 
 competition, tliat is to say, they both now send rather 
 more than they did before. 
 
 1078. But the amount of news transmitted is not 
 in proportion to the facilities or reductions you give ? 
 — No. One example I can give you. We have what 
 we call an Empire Press Sei'vice. and we have to seiTe 
 with news a great number of small places among the 
 dominions. We give it for nothing at Ascension, 
 and for a small sum at St. Helena, Zanzibar, Sejchelles, 
 Maitritius, Egypt, Malta, and Gibraltar. That news 
 used to be sent in very small telegrams. Now we have 
 one news message sent continually all day long. Renter 
 hands us in batches of 20 or 30 words at a time which 
 goes off and that one message goes aU round our 
 system, and is delivered at 30 or -10 places. We can 
 afford to do that very much cheaper than having oiu" 
 line blocked up to a large extent with a numl>er of 
 small;messages l)eing sent to diffei-ent places. Australia 
 would not take that message ; we offered to send it 
 from Durban to Australia for '2d. a word exti-a, but 
 they prefeiTed to have their own sei-vice. 
 
 1079. I notice there is a difference in press rates. 
 Tht)se between Austi-alia and New Zealand and South 
 Africa ai'e nearly twice those between Australia and 
 the United Kingdom ? — Yes, that is specially between 
 South Africa and Australia. The International Con- 
 vention lays it down that the press rates shall be half 
 the ordinary rate, but they give us a free hand to 
 make any si>ecial an-angements we like, which we have 
 done everywhere. There has lieen no demand for any 
 news between South Africa and Austiulia. Therefore, 
 the international i-ate remains at half the rate. But
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 55 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., and 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBEKDINE. 
 
 [Oversea Communications : 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 we have already offered to take a rate of 2d. a word 
 between Dm-ljan and Australia provided the Australian 
 Commonwealth will take Id. a word as they do on 
 British traffic, but we have had no demand and nobody 
 wants to use it. If anybody came along and said, 
 ■' We will send so many thousand words at different 
 " times of the day between South Africa and Australia," 
 we should take 2d. a woi'd at once. We have made 
 the (jfi'er and we stand by it. 
 
 108tt. Just one other question. I do not know 
 whether it is one you can answer. Do you find from 
 your experience tliat there is any growini; interest in 
 the affairs, say, of Europe generally, and this country 
 in particular, growing up which demand a better news 
 service? — I should not like to give an opinion upon 
 that myself ; it is a matter which a news agency would 
 be able to feel the pulse of the people about much 
 better than we could. (Sir John Pender.) I think we 
 might answer that in one way — that there is a certain 
 amount of news sent every day, and if there is more 
 interesting news to go a certain proportion of that 
 other news is dropped. As a rule if there is important 
 news, news that is not so important is dropped out. 
 (Mr. Hihherdiiie.) And if there is any very impoi'tant 
 news they will have it, of course, whatever the cost is, 
 and we can give you au example of that. In the case 
 of the first cricket matches i)layed in Australia one of 
 the newspapei'S found ovit the lu-geut rate of 9s. a word 
 and they made a scoop the first day because they had 
 the news in their morning edition ; the next day all the 
 other papers did the same and they stopped it, and 
 the company were very glad, because we had the whole 
 of our oi'dinary traffic stopped for tliat day. 
 
 1081. The reason I ask the question is that while 
 we were in Australia, events of the very ntmost im- 
 portance affecting the peace of the whole world were 
 happening in Europe, and certainly the amoimt of 
 news received about them did not enable xis to follow 
 intelligently what was going on. 
 
 1082. (Mr. Tatlow.) Is that automatic arrange- 
 ment by which the charge for the ordinary telegram 
 would be reduced when your revenue reaches a given 
 sum still in existence ? — Yes. 
 
 1083. Is it to continue for a certain number of 
 years ? — There is practically no limit to the number of 
 years. Of coiu-se, we are a very long way off it now, 
 naturally. 
 
 1084. Is the Australian business increasing — your 
 share of it ? — -Yes.. I can give you the average of three 
 years' figures. In 1909 our revenue was 209,000?. 
 
 ' 108.5. What was it last year ?— 238,000?. 
 
 1086. It will be a long while before the 330,000?. 
 is reached ? — By oiar line, certainly. 
 
 1087. With regard to the week-end messages, yom- 
 proposal was five words for 3s. ? — Yes. 
 
 1088. That is a considerable rednotion on the 
 present charge ? — Pretty much the same ; it is 9d. a 
 word at present. 
 
 1089. It is about Vc?. a word, so that it is a fairly 
 substantial reduction? — Yes. 
 
 1090. But you were overruled as regards the 
 suggested five words arrangement ? — We found they 
 all objected to that — everybody ; we were the only ones 
 who supported it. 
 
 1091. They prefeired the charge per word ? — Yes. 
 
 1092. I suppose it is still qxiite clear that yon are 
 willing to make a reduction, if others are, in the charge 
 per word ? — We are ready to have one word for five, 
 that is one-fiftli rate. 
 
 1093. If you are willing to allow Id. under that 
 aiTangement would you not be willing to have Id. 
 under the word an-angement? — No, because with a 
 charge for five words we get a certain profit on unused 
 words ; that is why we charged one word for five. If 
 we charge a word rate we want a one-foui-th rate. 
 
 1094. Each five words would stand liy themselves ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1095. I am glad to make that clear ; I see the 
 difference now. I suppose tliere is no practical 
 difficulty whatever about delivei'ing all message.s on 
 the Mond;iy instead of the Tuesday ? — No. 
 
 1096. With regard to the suggested pooling an-ange- 
 ment between you and the Pacific Cable Board, it fell 
 through at the time you said ? — Yes. 
 
 I<jy7. They wanted something more, and you wanted 
 to base it on the actual ti-affic earned for a certain 
 number of years ? — Yes. 
 
 1098. Do you not think it quite natural for a new 
 company in such an arrangement to seek something in 
 the way of prospective advantage ? — We were willing to 
 give up a certain amount. (Sir John Pender.) Tliat is 
 some years ago now. We are prepared to go on the 
 same basis to-day. They liave had tour or five years' 
 experience altogether, now. 
 
 1009. If the countries concerned in the Pacific 
 cable were willing to agree to some pooling arrange- 
 ment you do not apprehend much dif^culty in coming 
 to a solution with regard to the percentages ? — I do 
 not think so. (Mr. Hibberdine.) The real reason it fell 
 through was the opposition in Australia. 
 
 1100. (Chairman.) Public opinion in Australia is 
 very strongly against it ? — (Sir John Pender.) It is. 
 
 1101. (Mr. Tatloxo.) You say that your capital has 
 been reduced to 12.5?. a knot. Would you mind saying 
 from what it was reduced — in other words, what was 
 the original cost ? — I cannot give you that. Remember 
 we have paid out a great deal. Although we have paid 
 a steady dividend for a great many years, we have 
 put a large sum to reseiwe. The whole of those 
 reserves have been, and will be, sooner or later, 
 absorbed, as they are put away, in giving fresh facilities, 
 and in reduction of i-ate. If we had paid a propor- 
 tionate dividend in the early days of the profits we 
 were receiving, we could not, at the j^reseut time, have 
 come down even to the existing rates, but it is the 
 putting away to the reserve fund which has enabled us 
 to come down to the present rates. We could not 
 have done it if it had not been for our strengthening 
 of the company's position in the early days. 
 
 11(12. I suppose that jirocess is still going on ? — 
 Yes, but not a shilling from our reseiwes has ever 
 gone amongst ourselves, it has all gone to the benefit 
 of the public traffic. (Mr. Hil/berdine.) To improve 
 the service. 
 
 1103. (Mr. Lorimer.) Nearly every question I had 
 noted has already been asked, so that I have only just 
 one or two left. Were the conditions under which 
 the automatic reduction was to take place determined 
 by traffic alone or by traffic and profits, or in some 
 other way ? — (Sir John Pender.) There were an-ange- 
 ments made according to traffic, and they were made 
 with the Governments. You are talking of South 
 Africa, I understand, just now ? 
 
 1104. I was sj^eaking rather of Australia. — Aus- 
 tralia was based on the traffics and what was considei-ed 
 a fair and reasonable sum of money in the way of 
 profits when we could afford to come down. 
 
 110.5. Was that the result of a decision arrived at 
 by the International Convention ? — No, it had nothing 
 to do with that ; that was a purely private arrange- 
 ment made between ourselves and the Australian 
 Government. 
 
 1106. Are there any indeiieudent cables owned by 
 France and Germany to the Far East ?• — No. 
 
 1107. None whatever? — No, not as a tlu-ough line. 
 
 1108. So that you cari-y all the Continental 
 traffic ? — We can-y the Par East traffic. We may 
 hand it over to other associated companies, that is, 
 other comi^auies with whom we work under a joint 
 purse arrangement, which is well kno^vu, such as 
 the Great Northern (Danish) Company. The Great 
 Northern and ourselves carry the traffic to the Far 
 East. 
 
 1109. East of Europe, apart from the Pacific 
 cable, there are no other cables than youi-s ? — To the 
 Far East there are no other cibles, but France has 
 some local cables. 
 
 1110. I was speaking of through cables? — No. 
 (Mr. Hibberdine.) There is no tlu-ough foreign cable to 
 Australia ; in the Far East there is the American Com- 
 pany, the Danish Company, the French Government 
 cable, and the German Dutch Company. 
 
 G 4
 
 56 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION ; 
 
 14 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., and 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBEKBINE. 
 
 [Oversea Communications ; 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 1111. I quite understand that France, of co'u-se, 
 has them in Saigon? — (Sir John Pender.) They have 
 to come on tlie Eastern, but the American or the 
 Great Northern lines could cany their traffic a certain 
 distance. 
 
 1112. Tou say that had it not been for the crea- 
 tion of the Pacific Cable Board, by this time some 
 reduction would have been possible ? — Certainly not 
 only possible, but it woidd have actually come into 
 effect. 
 
 1113. Therefore, to that extent the public has 
 suffered by the ci-eation of the Pacific Cable Board ? 
 — Tes. 
 
 1114. So far as the traffic between Europe and the 
 East is concerned, you have ah-eady a great deal moi-e 
 than made \ip any loss you might have sustained by 
 the Pacific cable, and has the time not come therefore 
 in accordance with your own principle and practice 
 to consider reduction ? — We have not made it up. 
 
 1115. Between Europe and the East you had. 
 prior to the existence of the Pacific cable. l.TOii.dOii 
 odd words in the year, and last year you had 
 2,068,(1(10 : is not that an increase P It seemed to me, 
 looking at these figures, that is an increase similar 
 to what appears to have justified you in reducing from 
 4s. M. to 4s. ? — (Mr. Hibberdine.) Tes. but that is only 
 the Em-opean ti-affic ; that is not the Amei-icau traffic ; 
 we do not carry the American ti-affic now ; the 
 American traffic is can-ied by the Pacific Cable Board. 
 
 1116. Tou had the American traffic before, and it 
 has pi-acticaUy gone to the Pacific Cable Board? — 
 Tes. 
 
 1117. I am speaking of the Eastern traffic between 
 Em-ope and the East, aud I point out that the increase 
 in the ti-affic from the introduction of the Pacific 
 Cable Board until now is about as large as justified 
 you in reducing prior to that the rate from -is. 9d. 
 to 4s. ? — (Sir John Pender.) No. I think you must have 
 got hold of the wi-ong figure. What is the figure 
 which had to be arrived at before we went down to the 
 2s. Cid. rate ? 'JfiTr. Hibherdine.) It is a question of 
 money. (Sir John Pender.) We wi]l look up the 
 figures. Your point is that we have already got to 
 the figure which was named for the 2s. (id. reduction. 
 
 1118. Tou have fixed the figure for the 2s. (id. 
 reduction ? — Tes. 
 
 1119. But you have not got to that yet? — No. 
 (Mr. Hibherdine.) Oiu- figure was fixed at 330,OOOJ. a 
 year, and our traffic last year was only 238,00(1?. {Sir 
 John Pender.) We have not yet an-ived at the sum of 
 money, but if we had got the Pacific traffic and the 
 Pacific cable had not )>eeu laid, we should have been 
 considerably over it. 
 
 1120. Then it is the que.stiun of money which 
 determines you ? — Tes. 
 
 1121. Traffic as represented liy money, I mean ? — 
 Tes, traffic as represented by money. 
 
 1122. Supposing you had had that increase of 
 traffic, do you say you would have had an increase of 
 traffic which would probaldy have justified you in 
 leducing the rate if the Pacific cable had not been 
 laid ? Woidd your exijeuses have teeu relatively less 
 than they are now for the aiiDimt of traffic you do 
 caiTy ? — Tes. our expenses would have been less to a 
 certain extent, but speaking right off, I do not know 
 that they would have been less to any very great 
 extent. We have to canvass in Australia, and we 
 have to canvass to a certain extent here. The canvass- 
 ing here does not cost us so very much because there 
 are other traffics which have to be canvassed for, but 
 in Australia, of course, we do spend a certain amount 
 of monej'. 
 
 1123. (Chairman.) Could you give us the amount ? 
 — I do not know that it is a veiy material amount. 
 (Mr. Hibberdine.) It will be 2,000?., 3,000/.. or 4.0007. 
 a year, perhaps. 
 
 1124. (Mr. Lorimer.) I see you deprecate, very 
 properly, cariying uni'emunerative traffic? — (Sir John 
 Pender.) Tes, we do not like doing that. 
 
 1125. Do you find it pays to send cable messages 
 which cost the newspapers less than a tenth of a 
 
 penny per word ? — (Mr. Hibberdine.) That is the 
 i-livisiou lietween the members of an association. 
 
 1126. Tou would have to divide it over a lot of 
 newspapers to make it up if you wanted 3s. or 3s. 6d. 
 there ? — But the uewspapere of Austi-alia pay us 7id. 
 a word. When that news message anives in Austi-alia 
 it is distributed among a lai-ge number of newspapere. 
 
 1127. That means that each group of newspapere 
 would requh'e to be about 75 to pay that amount ; you 
 do not mean to say you spread that over 75 news- 
 papers ? — I do not say that. 
 
 1128. " To Zanzibai- and Mauritius the actual cost 
 " is well under a tenth of a penny per word to each 
 " individual paper " ? — That is a different thing 
 altogether. The news message passes Zanzibar, for 
 instance, and in places like Zauzibiu-. Seychelles, 
 Mam-itius, and so on, we see how much the public can 
 subscribe — it is not a matter of newspapers at all. 
 
 112!'. When you go as far East as that you 
 become public benefactors ? — The ti-affic passes 
 thi'ough there, and we say. " Very well, if you can 
 ■■ give us 401. or 50?. a yeai- we will deliver this news 
 " message to you."' 
 
 1130. That is hai-dly consistent with your state- 
 ment, wliich I greatly appreciate, that you decline 
 altogether unremunerative traffic ? — But this traffic 
 which we give away in that way is passing over the 
 lines already. (Sir John Pender.) I think I can 
 explain it to yoti. It is a message which is sent 
 practically to veiy many pai-ts of the world, it is the 
 same message, and it goes thi-ough these offices, and it 
 is dropped at each office. We are paid so much for 
 that message, and we collect whatever we can addi- 
 tional. It is a news message which goes every day. 
 
 1131. Tou seud your messages over cables, which 
 cost something like half the rates you have instanced ? 
 —Tes. 
 
 1132. That of coui-se must be profitable to you.' — 
 Our profits are all pubUshed. 
 
 1133. What is your dividend ? — Seven per cent. 
 
 1134. Do 30U carry as much as that to reserve 
 eachyeai'? — What we caii-y to reserve vai-ies, but we 
 caiTj- a large amount every year, evei-ything over the 
 7 per cent., l>ut my point is this : with regard to that 
 money which we cany to resei-ve not one shilling of 
 that has ever been divided amongst oiu-selves ; it has 
 all gone in fresh instruments, keeping the concern up 
 to date, and in laying fresh cables. We have spent 
 diuiug the last 20 years, roughly speaking, something 
 like seven millions of reserve on the cables. 
 
 1135. How much have you spent in repairs in the 
 same time ? — I cannot give you the total amount 
 offhand. 
 
 1136. What is youi- capital ? — Remember the capital 
 is partly in ordinaiy shares, partly in preference shares, 
 and partly in debentures, which are -1 per cent. 
 
 1 137. Do these companies which you have specified, 
 the German Atlantic, the French Atlantic, and the 
 Great Northern Company pay fairly well ? — The French 
 Atlantic, no. The German Atlantic started with a 
 verj- fine subsidy from the German Government — all 
 the German companies do; they are subsidised, and 
 as tliey get the traffic and work into the traffic tlie 
 subsidy gradually dimini.shes. It is really a guarantee 
 from the Gox ernment. 
 
 1138. That is a different position from yours alto- 
 gether ? — Tes. 
 
 1139. The Pacific Cable Board we know all alxjut.; 
 it is rapidly becoming self-supporting ? — Tes.' 
 
 1140. Then again you mentioned iu this paper that 
 you had. in order to give the public additional facilities, 
 in.stead of duplicating your caljles taken them over 
 different routes and introduced a great many ditt'eront 
 stations ?— Tes. 
 
 1141. I think I gathered from what you said to 
 Sir Alfred Bateman that the more stations you Jiave 
 the cheaper the cable is? — No. no; that is another 
 point. 
 
 1142. Did you not say that when you coidd have 
 a short cable length you used lighter cojjper and 
 lighter gutta-percha ?. — If we had laid the system to 
 Australia over oui' old lines of cables to Australia, the
 
 MINUTES Of EVIDENCE. 
 
 57 
 
 X4 November 1913.] 
 
 Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., 
 
 Mr. W. HiBBEBDINB. 
 
 and [^Oversea Communications . 
 
 Post and Telegraph. 
 
 cables would have been much shorter in length and 
 they would have been very much less expensive. The 
 new line going to the Cape was for a very much longer 
 distance, and therefore was very expensive. 
 
 1143. I thought you said there had been the intro- 
 duction of many stations and, therefore, you were 
 making them at shorter intei-vals ? — No. you can see 
 the tremendoiLS stretches (jjoiiifimj on the map). 
 whereas the stretches here are nothinij compared with 
 the stretches we have to make going round the Cape. 
 
 im. The fact that you emphasised the inti-odue- 
 tion of so many new stations in this remai'k you made 
 in the paper, led me to think you were taking shorter 
 distances ." — No, they are very long distances. 
 
 1145. There is just one other que.stioii I would 
 like to ask. Tou spoke to-day of the very small per- 
 centage of social messages you had. and 1 have 
 often thought that people who wei'e compelled to send 
 social and domestic messages are, no doubt, at a great 
 disadvantage as com;;>Hred with those who use a code, 
 but they are at this further disadvantage that the 
 users of code seldom adopt words with fewer than 10 
 letters. The senders of domestic messages, on the 
 other hand, are compelled to use whatever words suit 
 their purpose ? — They are. 
 
 1146. Therefore, I wondered whether you ever 
 thought of charging per letter, or number of letters, in- 
 stead of per word ? — At one of the International Con- 
 ferences a proposal was made that all charging by 
 woi'ds should be done away with, and that we should 
 charge by letter, so many letters, six or eight letters, I 
 forget which, and that anyone who handed a message 
 in should be charged for so many letters irrespective of 
 the group being pronounceable, or not. We l^rought 
 forward a proposal for charging combinations of 
 10 letters in plain language as one word ; as far as we 
 were concerned the principle, I think, was agreed upon 
 as being a sound principle, but when it was worked 
 out it was foimd that it was impossil)le for the Govern- 
 ment to agree to it. because on the Government's 
 channel cables it is almost entirely all jilain-language 
 business, and there are a lot of " the's " and small 
 words in the traffic, and I think I am right in saying 
 the estimate of loss was so great that it could not be 
 accepted. The percentage of plain-language com- 
 mercial which we carry is next to nothing, and the 
 percentage of code that the Government carries is 
 next to nothing. We should be prepared, however, to 
 agree to the suggestion of charging by a number of 
 letters 
 
 E 20830 
 
 H
 
 58 
 
 PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION 
 
 I.— MIGRATION. 
 
 Statistical Investigation on Certain Points arising out of a Memorandum hy the 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission on the Effect on British Trade of Emigration from the 
 
 United Kingdom, and on the Future Populations of the Various Countries of the Empire ; 
 
 by E. C. SNOW, M.A., D.Sc. 
 
 TABLE OF CONTENTS. 
 
 Page 
 Memorandum of Enquiry by the Royal Commission 59 
 
 su.mmauy of the chief conclusions 59 
 
 Introduction *^^* 
 
 (l)to(8). On THE Association between External Trade and Migration. 
 
 (1) The data available 61 
 
 (2) The method adopted. The " long period " view 61 
 
 (3) The •• short period " view .-.------------61 
 
 (4) The use of the term •■ correlation -------------- 62 
 
 (5) Correlation between fluctuations iu emigration from the United Kingdom and fluctuations in exports 
 
 to and imports from (a) Australia, (b) Canada, (o) the United States t)2 
 
 (6) On the fluctuation in external ti-ade accompanying a fluctuation of a stated amount in the migration 
 
 from the United Kingdom .....---.--.--63 
 
 (7) Fm-ther correlations applicable to the state in which the trade tetween the United Kingdom aad the 
 
 rest of the world, other than the countries referred to ui turn, is stationary 64 
 
 (8) Genei'al conclusions on the association between external ti-ade and migration from the United Kingdom 64 
 
 (9) to (13). On the Relationship between Trade and General Prosperity. 
 
 (9) The marriage rate as a symptom of prosperity .----.....-64 
 
 (10) Correlation between fluctuations in the number of marriages and fluctuations in the number of 
 
 emigrants of EngUsh, Scotch, and Irish nationalities from the United Kingdom - - - - 65 
 
 (11) Association between immigration (male and female) and marriage rate in Austi'alia - - - - 65 
 
 (12) Association between (a) immigration. (6) emigration, and (c) net immigration (male and female), and 
 
 the marriage rate in New Zealand -.....----..-65 
 
 (13) General conclusions on the association between migration and prosperity ------ 66 
 
 (14) Association between (a) immigration and emigration, (b) male and female emigration, and (c) male 
 
 and female immigration in Xew Zealand ------------ 66 
 
 (15) Analysis of the state of agricultural employment in England .-.--... 66 
 
 (16) On production and consumption in Austi-alia and New Zealand --.---.. 67 
 
 (17) Census populations of various comitries — male and female, adults and children - - - - .69 
 
 (18) Births, deaths and migration in the various coimtries --..----..69 
 
 (19) Fertility of the populations of the United Kingdom and the Colonies .-----. 70 
 
 (20) Proportions of married people, and excess of tuimarried females -----..-70 
 
 (21) Detailed analysis *of the excess of umnai'ried females in England and Wales - . . - - 71 
 
 (22) Fertility of the native and immigrant populations in Australia ------.. 72 
 
 (23) Mortality of population in Australia according to birthplace ........ 72 
 
 (24) Mortality of population in Australia according to length of residence there ----.. 74 
 
 (25) Estimates of the populations — male and female, adults and children — of the various coimtries in 1921 
 
 aqd 1931 74 
 
 LIST OF TABLES. 
 
 I. — Migratiou from and External Trade oi the United Kingdom. 1876-1911 75 
 
 n. — Census Populations Under and Over 15 since 1861 .........76 
 
 m. — Proportion of Total Population Under 15 -.-..-..-.. 77 
 
 IV.— Percentage Increase of Popttlation in Intercensal Periods ........ 77 
 
 V. — Births. Deaths, and Nett Immigration in stated Countries in Decennial Periods from 1861 . - 77 
 "Vl.^Birth-, Death". Immigration-, and Total Increase Rates in Decennial Periods (Based upon the 
 
 Mean Popidation iu those Periods per 100) .---...... 7g 
 
 VII. — Legitimate Births per l.OOO Married Women, aged 15-45 -....-.. 79 
 
 Vin. — Number of Births per Marriage in Previous Year ----..... 79 
 
 IX. — Number of Mairied Males to every 100 Total Males in Age Groups. Number of Married Females 
 
 to every 100 Total Females in Age Groups ..---..... gQ 
 
 X. — Excess of Unmarried Females over Unmarried Males in Age Groups ...... 81 
 
 XL— Numbersof Unmarried Males and Females between ceitain Age Limits in London Boroughs (1911), 
 
 and certain Indices of Social Status - . - . . - . . . . --82 
 
 XII. — Niimlx-rs of Unmarried Males and Females between 15 and 35 iu the aggregate of Boroughs, other 
 
 Urban Districts, and in Rural Districts in Counties and Divisions of Counties, 1911 - . - 82 
 
 XIIL— Birth Riite if certain Populations in Australia (1911) according to Birthplace - - - - 83 
 
 XIV. — Mortality of the Population in Australia in 1911 accordins to Birthplace - - - - - 83 
 
 XV. — Mortality of the Population in Australia in 1911 according to length of Residence - - - 84 
 XVI. — Limiting Rates of Increase (Percentage of the Mean Intercensal Populations) assumed for the 
 
 Estimation of the Population of the various Countries in 1921 -.--.. §4 
 
 XVII. — Populations in 1!'21 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase shown in Table XVT. hold - 85 
 XVIIl. — Populations in 1931 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase shown in Table XVI. hold for 
 
 two Intercensal Periods ---------. ....yy
 
 MK;RATin\. 
 
 59 
 
 At the end of December 1912 the Secretary to the 
 Commission informed me that the Commissioners were 
 desirous of obtaining information as to the results of 
 migration from the United Kingdom on British trade, 
 and indicated in a memorandum certain specific points 
 on which it was desired to obtain a report. 
 
 The Mem<yrandimi ivas as follows ■ — 
 
 Memorandum op Inquiry as to the Effect on 
 British Trade of Emigration from the 
 United Kinsdom. 
 
 1. It is generally admitted (see for example the dis- 
 cussion on emigration at the last Imperial Conference) 
 that it is to the advantage of British trade that emi- 
 grants leaving the United Kingdom should go to other 
 parts <jf the British Empire rather than to foreign 
 countries. 
 
 Is this view correct, and, if so, can hgures be 
 furnished illustrating the extent of the advantage .'' 
 
 2. There is a difference of view as to whether emi- 
 gration from the United Kingdom to other parts of the 
 British Empire, and in particular to Canada and 
 Australasia, is to the advantage — 
 
 (a) Of the Empire as a whole, 
 
 (6) Of the United Kingdom itself. 
 It is contended on the one hand under (a) that the 
 emigration from the United Kingdom, even to other 
 parts of the Empire, of desirable citizens involves net 
 loss to the Empire by weakening the United Kingdom, 
 which continues to bear a disproportionate share of the 
 Imperial burden, and that the same consideration 
 applies with still greater force as regards (6), while the 
 emigration of undesirable citizens can be of no benefit 
 to other jjarts of the Empire. 
 
 On the other hand, it is contended that owing to 
 the comparative scarcity of population in other parts of 
 the Empire which have vast natural resources awaiting 
 development, emigration from United Kingdom to those 
 other parts benefits (n) the Empire as a whole throiigh 
 the increased productive and consuming power of the 
 individual in those other parts as compared with the 
 individual in the United Kingdom, and (6) the United 
 Kingdom itself, because the increase of the consuming 
 power of the individual in those other parts of the 
 Empire is so great, as on the whole to set up a greater 
 demand for the products of the industry of the United 
 Kingdom than would be set up if the individual 
 remained in the United Kingdom, and liecause the 
 pressure of population in the United Kingdom is 
 becoming so great that the reduction of its population 
 is in itself a desirable object, and that persons who 
 could never become desirable citizens in the United 
 Kingdom can become desirable citizens in the other 
 parts of the Empire owing to the more suitable en- 
 vironment and the wider opportunities of individual 
 advancement which they aiford. This last ai'gxmient is 
 particularly used, for example, in relation to the emi- 
 gration of Poor Law children. 
 
 3. Can figures be furnished illustrating the alleged 
 increased productivity and consuming capacity of the 
 individual in Canada and Australia as compared with 
 the individual in the United Kingdom, and the conse- 
 quent effect of emigration on the trade — 
 
 (a) Of the Empire as a whole, 
 (6) Of the United Kingdom. 
 
 4. It would be of advantage if the subject could be 
 treated separately, so far as possible, as regards the 
 emigration of — 
 
 (i) Adult males. 
 
 (ii) Adult females i (both in reference to the immedi- 
 
 (iii) Children j ate and the more remote future). 
 
 What effect on the future population of the Empire 
 as a whole will be caused by the emigration of men, 
 women, and children from the United Kingdom to the 
 Colonies ? 
 
 The investigation made with the view of throwing 
 light upon the subjects referred to in the above memo- 
 randum is described Vjelow, but it will not be out of 
 place to give at the beginning a brief summary of the 
 chief conclusions which appear to be justified. 
 
 1. There is little evidence that migration directly 
 causes increase in external trade. The relationship 
 between them appears to be one of association merely 
 — the waves and depressions of trade and migration 
 occur together — and the inquir3' gives no sujjjjort to 
 the opinion that activity in migration causes activity in 
 trade (excej)t, of course, in so far as the emigrants 
 themselves take British goods from the United King- 
 dom). If emigration from the United Kingdom to, 
 say, Canada were the direct cau.se of increase in the 
 external trade l>etween those countries we should, 
 on analysing the experience of the past, expect to find 
 that waves of migration had preceded, by a little, waves 
 of trade. Actually we find that between the United 
 Kingdom and both Canada and the United States 
 activity m migration and trade — thi-oughout the period 
 1878-1911 — practically synchronised. Activity in the 
 export trade from the United Kingdom to Australasia 
 appears, indeed, to have preceded migration from the 
 former country to the latter, and only in the case of 
 imports from Australasia to the United Kingdom did 
 trade follow migration from the United Kingdom. 
 Organised assistance of emigration was considerably 
 less in the period reviewed than in the past two or 
 three years, and under the conditions then existing 
 activity in migration occurred, on the whole, in times 
 of general prosperity. Left to itself migration (with 
 the exception of that from Ireland) appears to be a 
 l^hase of a world-wide economic phenomenon- — an indi- 
 cation of prosperous conditions. The periodic booms 
 in trade throughout the world require some redistri- 
 bution of labour, and this has been effected by migration. 
 
 2. Concerning the qiiestion of whether or not it is 
 to the advantage of British trade that emigrants from 
 the British Isles should go to other parts of the Em- 
 pire rather than to foreign countries no direct satis- 
 factory statistical data have been adduced. It has teen 
 ascertained, however, that, in the period 1878-1911 a 
 particular ■■ dose " of emigration from the United 
 Kingdom was associated with a greater proportional 
 increase in trade when that emigration was to Atistra- 
 lasia or Canada than to the United States. This does 
 not properly answer the question proposed, since the 
 emigration cannot be ascribed as the cause of the in- 
 crease in trade, and, moreover, there are many other 
 interacting factors — magnitude of population, stage of 
 development, extent of trade with other countries, etc. 
 — which affect the consideration of the problem. All 
 that can justifiably be said is that the balance of evi- 
 dence derived from the experience of 1878-1911 does not 
 controvert the view that it is better for British trade 
 that emigrants from the United Kingdom should go to 
 other partsof the Empire rather than to foreign coimtries. 
 
 3. On the question of the effect of emigration on 
 production and consumption very little general statis- 
 tical matter can be shown. Only in the case of Aus- 
 tralia, and for the last few years, are figures available 
 giving measures of i^roductiou and consumption of the 
 population and the variation in these from year to vear. 
 In that country production and consumption per head 
 of the popiulation have certainly increased duiiug a 
 time of active immigration, but as this nas also been a 
 time of general prosperity throughout the civilised 
 world it is not possible to say if the boom in migration 
 has been the direct cause of the increased production 
 and consumption, or if those increases would still have 
 taken place if the immigration had not occurred. 
 
 On the whole question of the relationship between 
 migration and general prosperity the most simple hypo- 
 thesis to account for the fact that, under the uncon- 
 strained conditions existing during the greater part of 
 the period 1878-1911, migration from the United King- 
 dom to the Colonies was associated with times of pros- 
 
 H 2
 
 60 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION :— PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : 
 
 perity (except in the case of emigration from Ireland) 
 is that migration is an important aid to commercial 
 and industrial welfare by effecting the translation of 
 labour to its most productive spheres. It is not justi- 
 fiable to assume from this, however, that the artificial 
 transportation of a considerable population to the 
 Colonies in a time of industrial stagnation is necessarily 
 coing to do much to accelerate the time of prosperity. 
 
 4. In the later paragraphs of this report certain 
 of the salient census figures of the various parts of 
 the British Isles and the Dominions are discussed, 
 some demographic statistics having bearing on the 
 question of the future populations of the countries 
 are described, and calculations of those future popula- 
 tions made on certain hypotheses of rates of increase. 
 The most important of those pai-agraphs are probably 
 those (20-21) in which an analysis is made of the geogra- 
 phical distribution of the surplus of unmarried women 
 in England and Wales. The total excess of females in 
 England and Wales in 1911 was, as pointed out in the 
 memorandum supplied to the Commission liy the 
 British Women's Emigration Association [printed in 
 Cd. 6516. p. 240]. 1.179,000. The surplus of unmarried 
 females, however, was only 296.000. while if we deal 
 only with persons of emigrable ages, say 15-35. the 
 excess of unmarried women over unmarried men lie- 
 tween those ages was only just over 7,000 (having 
 decreased from 39.000 at the previous census). On 
 further inquiry it does not appear that there is in 
 England and Wales any appreciable sui-plus of women 
 who are both of the type desired by the Dominions and 
 can at the same time Vje readily spared by ourselves, 
 since it is only in the localities of higher social status 
 — the better parts of London and the suburbs and the 
 seaside and health resorts — that the surplus exists. 
 In the artisan and poorer parts of London and the 
 suburbs, and in fact in industrial to^vns generally 
 (except in Lancashire and the West Riding of York- 
 shire, in which places there is a good deal of well-paid 
 female labour), unmarried women between 15 and 35 
 are fewer than unmarried men between the same ages. 
 The surplus of unmarried women — small, in any case — 
 consists chiefly, therefore, of domestic servants, who 
 can be hardly spared by ourselves, and of women of 
 higher social status whose presence in the Dominions 
 is not urgently needed. 
 
 The tables referred to in the text have been printed 
 at the end of the report (pp. 7.J-86). 
 
 Introduction. 
 
 It would be satisfactory to be able to deal with 
 the first point raised in the memorandum of the Com- 
 missioners — viz., upon the desirability, so far as regards 
 trade, of emigrants from the British Isles going to 
 other parts of the Empire rather than to foreign coun- 
 tries — by straightforward inspection of the figures of 
 migration, export.s, and imports. The kind of direct 
 statistical evidence which might be expected to throw 
 light upon the matter is that showing the trade with 
 the United Kingdom per head of the populations of 
 those countries to which emigrants from the United 
 Kingdom go iu large numbers, some of these being within 
 and others outside the Empire, Such evidence for the 
 last three census years for two groups of countries within 
 the Empire — Australasia and British North America — 
 and one outside — the United States — is as follows ; — 
 
 Census 
 Year. 
 
 White 
 Population. 
 
 Imports from 
 
 United King- 
 flom per he.icl 
 of Population. 
 
 Exports to 
 United King- 
 dom per head 
 of Populatiou. 
 
 
 Australasia. 
 
 
 1891 - 
 1901 - 
 1911 - 
 
 1 3.947,000 i 6-46 
 4.662,000 i 5-78 
 5,463,000 1 7-45 
 
 British North America 
 
 7-92 
 
 7-47 
 10-42 
 
 1891 - 
 
 1901 - 
 1911 - 
 
 5,031,000 
 
 5,59:^.000 
 
 i 7.447,000 
 
 1-44 
 1-46 
 2-73 
 
 2-51 
 365 
 3-51 
 
 
 United States. 
 
 
 189<"i - 
 1900 - 
 1910 - 
 
 55.152,000 ' 0.58 
 66,890,000 . 0-30 
 81,733,000 ' 0-38 
 
 1-76 
 207 
 1-47 
 
 Trade per head of population with the United 
 Kingdom is certainly larger in the two places within 
 the Empire than in the case of the United States, 
 though, as shown in Table I, the absolute magnitude 
 of the exports to the United Kingdom is greater from 
 the United States tlian from either of the other coun- 
 tries, and also the imports of British and Irish products 
 into the United States are gi-eater than those into 
 Canada, though not in recent years those into Aus- 
 tralia. On the other hand. lx)th exports from the 
 United Kingdom to the places within the Empire and 
 imports from the latter to the former have increased 
 at a greater i-ate than have the corresponding exports 
 to, and imports from, the United States. The facts that 
 tne average individual in Australia and Canada both 
 receives more from the United Kingdom and sends 
 more to it than the average individual in the United 
 States, and that the trade of the two Dominions with 
 the United Kingdom is increasing more rapidly than is 
 tliat of the United States, would appear to substantiate 
 the view expressed in the memorandum. Ceitainly 
 they give no evidence controverting it. But although 
 the view may te correct there are difiiculties in the 
 way of accepting the above information as certain 
 proof. The logical consequence of the argument con- 
 cerning ti-ade per head of the population, for example, 
 would be that it is more desirable for emigrants to go 
 to Australia than to Canada, and. of foreign countries, 
 to the Argentine rather than to the United States. 
 Better information on the question would lie to ascer- 
 tain, if possible, the effect upon trade with the United 
 Kingdom of a particular instalment of emigration to 
 each of the countries. The difiiculty here arises that 
 emigi-ation to certain of the countries might have 
 occurred most in times of prosperity, and to others 
 more in times of adversity, and the statistical evidence 
 drawn from the two cases would not lie comparable. 
 In any case it would be unjustifiable, without further 
 investigation, to assume that any particular increase in 
 trade between two countries which took place at the 
 same time as, or soon after, a boom in migration be- 
 tween them was caused by the latter. It might be only 
 a part of general trade prosperity throughout the 
 world, and might have occurred if the migration had 
 not taken place. For these reasons it appears better to 
 make a detailed investigation of the relationship — as 
 manifested by the experience of the past — exist- 
 ing between migration and trade and general pros- 
 perity. 
 
 Accordingly the questions raised in the memorandum 
 of the Commissioners have been dealt with under the 
 following heads : — 
 
 (i) What association between the extei-ual trade and 
 migration from the United Kingdom can be 
 detected from the statistics of the past 35 
 years ? 
 
 (ii) Does any relationship exist between emigration 
 from, or immigration to. a country and general 
 prosperity there ? 
 
 (iii) WTiat figures are available to illustrate the effect 
 of migration on production and consumption 
 in the coimtries of the Empire ? 
 
 (iv) Consideration of the poptilation and vital 
 statistics of various countries of the Empii-e 
 and estimates of future populations. 
 
 It has been found impossible to give adequate 
 answers to (i) and (ii) by inspection of statistics alone. 
 For example, in attempting to discover whether years 
 of active emigi-ation from England and Wales have 
 been years of prosperity (as evidenced by variations in 
 the marriage rate) general inspection shows that the 
 figures for some years point in one direction, and for 
 other years in the opposite direction. In order to 
 weigh the evidence it is necessary to determine the 
 average experience, and this can be done by the use of 
 the technical implement know as the -correlation co- 
 efficient." The impossibility of making satisfactory 
 deductions from the data by general considerations, and 
 the illumination which the employment of the method 
 of correlaticm throws upon the problems proposed, has 
 been the reason, after a little hesitation, for adopting 
 that method for the elucidation of the first two of the 
 above questions. The conclusions to be dra-wn from the
 
 IS78 I8S0 raae isa* ises reae 
 
 I890 IB92 
 
 Exports ' 
 Thousand £. 
 
 Migration 
 Thousands 
 
 Diagram 3. 
 
 '^P* 'QfS "SSS I900 I902 [904 I90S 1 90S 
 
 United Kingdom and United States. 
 
 I. Exports from UK. 
 
 II. Nett Migration from U.K. 
 
 III. Imports into U.K. 
 
 Exports 
 , Thousand S. 
 
 lOO Migratior, 
 Thousands 
 
 o 
 
 Imports 
 
 i^iihon e 
 
 (S7e iBao 
 
 TL E07 WBMLa 13 
 
 laas isa4 isae 
 
 S90 1392 I a 94 1696 ISSa I900 fSOC 
 
 ISO 
 
 ISO 
 
 "O Imports 
 Million £
 
 Diagra m 2 . 
 
 1880 lasz 
 
 re 90 1892 
 
 894 1896 
 
 1900 1903 
 
 ■ 9pe 1908 
 
 Exports 
 Million £. 
 
 United Kingdom and British North America. 
 
 I. Exports from U- K. 
 H. Nett Migration from U.K. 
 HI Imports into U.K. 
 
 ^20 
 -18 
 -16 
 
 Migra hon 
 Thousands 
 
 Imports 
 Million £. 
 
 1002 ISO* 
 
 1908 1910
 
 Diagram I. 
 
 Exports 
 
 Migrstion 
 Thousands 
 
 in 
 
 United Kingdom and Australasia. 
 
 I. Exports from U.K. 
 
 II. Nett Migration from U.K. 
 
 III. Imports into U.K. 
 
 Mtgration 
 Thousands 
 
 o 
 
 /rnports 
 AfiJ/ion-S. 
 
 \a7B 
 
 leeo laaz 
 
 IS36 1893 \300 1 90S 
 
 I906 l90a 1910 
 
 Imports 
 Mfllion e.
 
 MIGRATION. 
 
 61 
 
 numerical coefficients stated are given in full in neces- 
 sary cases, so that the fact that the technical term, 
 " correlation," is used need cause no difficulty in 
 reading. 
 
 (i1 What association between the external 
 teade and migration feom the united 
 Kingdom can be detected prom the 
 statistics op the past 35 tears? (the 
 general conclusions formed on this question 
 are stated in paragraph 8.) 
 
 (1) The first question can be dealt with by investi- 
 gating the relation which exists between the flow of 
 migration and the flow of imports into, and of exports 
 from, the United Kingdom, from and to those parts of 
 the world to which most of our emigrants go. In the 
 official returns three chief geographical divisions 
 receiving those emigrants are made out : — British North 
 America (Canada and Newfoundland); Australasia 
 (Australia and New Zealand) ; and the United States. 
 The net migration (i.e. excess of outward over inward 
 passengers) to each of those regions has been tabulated 
 for all years since 1876, and is shown in Table I. 
 
 The ideal method would be to consider true emigrants 
 only (i.e., those leaving the country with th^ intention of 
 taking up their permanent residence elsewhere), but 
 this — through absence of detailed statistics — camiot be 
 done over a series of years, and the variations in the net 
 movement of passengers have been taken to indicate the 
 fluctuations in the activity of true emigration from the 
 United Kingdom. This movement is compared in 
 the following paragraphs with the variations from year 
 to year in (i) the value of the exports of British and 
 Irish produce to, and (ii) the total value of imports 
 (exclusive of bullion and specie) from each of the three 
 areas named. The figures for these exports and imports 
 have been collected for Canada plus Newfoundland, 
 Australia j^lus New Zealand, and the United States, 
 and are shown for the years 1876 to 1911 in Table I. 
 For brevity of expression in the following paragraphs 
 the shorter names, Canada and Australia, are used 
 instead of the fuller descriptions of the regions of 
 which they form the predominant parts. For further 
 abbreviation the term " migration "' is, in the same 
 paragraphs, employed for " net movement of pas- 
 sengers from the United Kingdom," " exports " for 
 " exports of British and Irish produce from the United 
 Kingdom."' and " imports ' for the " total value of the 
 imports (exclusive of bullion and specie) into the United 
 Kingdom." Throughout the discussion the restrictions of 
 the data should be tome in mind. The deficiencies of the 
 statistics of external trade are well known and need 
 not be repeated here. This report deals solely with 
 the statistics as they are published, the possibility that 
 these statistics have been affected by tariffs, or other 
 extraneous circumstances, being ignored. Moreover, 
 they necessarily relate to prices as returned year by year, 
 and take no account of the changes which have occurred 
 in the general level of prices. The method employed in 
 these paragraphs, however, is not one which can be 
 applied only to refined and perfect data, and the imper- 
 fections refeiTed to affect the conclusions drawn 
 probably to a very small extent. 
 
 ( 2 ) The question of the association between migration 
 and trade may be looked at from two points of view : — ■ 
 (a) the long period view, and (b) the short period view. 
 For {a) we wish to know whether a wave of migration, 
 extending over several years, between two countries is 
 followed by a higher general level of trade between those 
 countries than was formerly reached. For (6) we require 
 to ascertain if a temporary spurt in migration is accom- 
 panied or followed by a corresponding spurt in trade. 
 Is a year in which the migration between two countries 
 is above the average one in wliich the trade between 
 those countries is also above the average, or is a year of 
 activity in migration succeeded by one of activity in 
 trade ? Both (a) and (h) are of importance, but the 
 most reliable answer can be given to the latter. 
 
 The published figures of migration and trade fluctuate 
 so considerably from year to year that it is necessary to 
 smooth them in some way before attempting analysis. 
 The data are not sivffioiently extensive to warrant the 
 labour of applying any refined method of smoothing, 
 and for the present purpose adequate accuracy is 
 
 probably attained by the process illustrated below on the 
 figures of the migration from United Kingdom to Aus- 
 tralia. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Actual 
 
 Migration. 
 
 (Thousands.) 
 
 Migration 
 
 Smoothed. 
 
 (Thonsanda.) 
 
 1904 .... 
 
 1905 .... 
 
 1906 .... 
 
 1907 .... 
 
 1908 .... 
 
 1909 .... 
 
 1910 .... 
 
 1911 .... 
 
 5,2 
 7,3 
 9,9 
 13,9 
 20,4 
 25,2 
 32,7 
 65,8 
 
 6.1 
 8,0 
 11,3 
 15,3 
 20,4 
 31,6 
 
 The average of the bottom five numbers in the column 
 showing the actual migration is 31,6, and this gives an 
 idea of the trend of the wave of migration in the middle 
 of the period, viz., 1909. The actual migration in that 
 year was 25,2 thousands, so that, measured against the 
 mean of the five years of which it was the middle, 1909 
 was a year of rather slack migration. This process of 
 averaging is repeated for every five-year period, and a 
 series of numbers obtained which, when represented 
 graphically and joined by a curve, give a good idea of 
 the general flow of migration throughout the period 
 considered. The same process can be applied to the 
 figures of exports and imports, and curves obtained 
 showing the general course of these over a series of 
 years. The three curves — I for exports. II for migration, 
 and III for imports — are shown in diagrams 1. 2 and 3, 
 for Australia, Canada, and the United States respec- 
 tively.* 
 
 By comparing the curves in any one diagram we can 
 ascertain, in a general way, whether the course of exports 
 or imports corresponds t« that of migration. In the case 
 of Australia the cxirves indicate that migration and 
 exports, on the whole, rose together between 1878 and 
 1884, migration fell continuously, while exports decreased 
 appreciably between 1884 and 1894, and since 1894 a 
 marked correspondence will be noticed — rising from 
 1894 to 1900, stationary for the next four years, and 
 rising together since. In the case of the curves for 
 migration and imports the agreement is not so marked, 
 though since 1896 they have approximately moved 
 together. As regards Canada the correspondence 
 between the curves for migration and exports is seen to 
 be very close, the oscillations in the two curves agreeing 
 quite closely. But, as in the last case, the resemblance 
 between the trend of migration and of imports is less 
 marked, and in the period 1886 to 1900, while migration 
 was extremely small, imports were rising continuously. 
 
 Turning now to the curve for the United States, the 
 same general tendencies can be made out. Exports and 
 migration rise and fall together with fair correspond- 
 ence, but again the trend of imports does not seem to 
 agree so closely with that of migration. A convenient 
 period for the comparison of the curves in the different 
 diagrams is from 1902 to the end of the time considered. 
 In this, for Australia and Canada, migration was rising 
 — ^to the former country very rapidly — but for the 
 United States migration was practically stationary. 
 At the same time exports from the United Kingdom to 
 all thi-ee countries rose, as did imports to the United 
 Kingdom from Australia and (to a smaller extent) 
 Canada, but from the United States they actually fell 
 slightly. This might be taken as some small evidence 
 that imports into, and migration from, the United 
 Kingdom from and to the other British countries are 
 more closely associated than are imports from, and 
 migration to, the United States. 
 
 (3) To investigate the possible " short period " 
 effects of migration, we require to study more closely 
 the figures for individual years and to take account 
 of the deviation of the figure for a particular year 
 
 * The dotted portions of the curves on the right-hand 
 extremities are obtained by joining the last point reached in 
 the manner above described (i.e. the aver.igc for five years of 
 which 1909 is the centre) to the point representing the 
 average of three years of which 191(1 is the centre. 
 
 H W
 
 62 
 
 DOMIXIOXS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: 
 
 from the average of the years around it. This de\'ia- 
 tion is represented in eaoh diagram by means of a 
 vertical line. Thus, in the case of the figures "of 
 migration to Australia, the average of the five years. 
 of which 1883 was the central one, was 35,800, but the 
 actual migration in the yeai- was 64,^100. That year, 
 therefore, was one of extremely active migi-ation to 
 Australia, the extent of that activity being measuredvby 
 the deviation 28,600 above the average for the five 
 years. Similar deviations have been worked out for 
 every one of the years dealt with, for each of migration, 
 imports and exports, and the state of trade and migra- 
 tion in any year can readily be appreciated from the 
 diagrams. A vertical line above the curve indicates 
 that trade or migration in that year was above the 
 average, and a line belov: the same signifies that trade or 
 migration was below the average, the extent of the 
 deviation being indicated by the length of the line. 
 The problem presented can now be looked at graphically, 
 and the association between migration and trade can be 
 roughly appreciated by noting the number of times the 
 corresponding vertical lines for migration and exports, 
 and again for migration and imports, are on the same 
 side of the curve compared with the number of times 
 they are on opposite sides. Thus, in the case of Aus- 
 tralia, the deviation from the migration curve and the 
 corresponding deviation from the exports curve are on 
 the same side for 21 years and on opposite sides for 11, 
 and it would therefore appear that years of active and 
 quiet migration are more frequently years of good and 
 slack exports respectively than not. Similai'ly in the 
 comparison of migration with imports, in 14 years the 
 deviations are of the same sign and in 17 of opposite 
 sign, and we cannot assert any association between 
 actirity of migration and activity in imports. In the 
 same way, if we wish to ascertain whether a spurt in 
 migration in one year is folloived by an increase in 
 exports in the next year we can count the number 
 of times in which the deviation in the case of migra- 
 tion in one year and from the exports in the next are 
 of the same sign, and compare with the number of cases 
 in which these are of opposite signs. 
 
 This method, however, at the best can only give a 
 rough idea of the degree of association and does not 
 enable us to draw the fullest possible conclusions from 
 the data. There are two reasons for this : (i) it does 
 not allow of the magnitude of the deviations being 
 taken into account, e,g., in the case of Australia the 
 deviation of the migration in 1883 was exceedingly 
 large and positive, but that of the exports was only just 
 of the same sign, and m the mere counting of the 
 corresponding deviations such a case as this is given 
 the same weight as one in which the corresponding 
 deviations are proportionally of the same magnitude ; 
 (ii) it does not admit of a quantitative measure of the 
 degree of association being made out. 
 
 (4) These ditficulties can be overcome by the use of 
 the method of correlation ; in fact, the problem appears 
 to be admirably suited for the employment of that 
 method, and without it no adequate solution can be 
 looked for. This enables us to give a quantitative index 
 to the association between the fluctuation in the migration 
 in one year and the fluctuation in the exports or imports 
 in the same, or the next, or the previous year, and in 
 thiii way we can ascertain whether a boom in migration 
 is followed, on the average, by a boom in trade, or 
 whether it follows a boom in trade or is co-existent 
 witli it. The technical details of the work involved in 
 finding svoh an index need not be given here, but it 
 may be s ated that the degree of association between 
 two phennmena varjdng continuously is measured by a 
 coefficient of correlation (r) which can take all values 
 (positive and negative) between and 1, according to 
 the intensity of the relationship existing between the 
 phenomena. Thus if we found that the deviation in 
 migration was always accompanied by a proportional 
 deviation in exports — so that, knowing the former, we 
 could exactly predict the latter — the correlation would 
 be 1. If, on the other hand, no relationship existed 
 between the two phenomena — so that knowing the devia- 
 tion of the migration we could not say whether, on the 
 averasre, the corresponding deviation of the exports 
 were* large or small, or of the same or opposite sign — - 
 the valu9 of r would work out to be practically z3ro. 
 Valu3? batwsin ani 1 are founl for all the various 
 degrees of relationship existing batween complete in- 
 
 dependence and perfect association between the two 
 phenomena. In the following sets of figures, for 
 example — 
 
 A-1 234. 5 6789 
 B-36 2 159847 
 
 we see that, though a knowledge of a particular figure 
 in series A by no means enables us to state the corre- 
 sponding figure in series B, yet, on the u-hote. the higher 
 figures in one series are against the higher figures in 
 the other, and the measure of the extent to which they 
 are associated is given by the correlation coefficient, 
 which in this case has the value 5. A negative corre- 
 lation coefficient has the same significance as a positive 
 one, but indicates that a rise in one variable is accom- 
 panied, on the average, by a fall in the other. In the 
 present problem the correlation coefficient will enable us 
 to form an opinion from the average experience of the 
 30 or so years dealt with of the association between 
 migration and trade 
 
 . (5) The actual correlation coefficients which have 
 been worked out are ; — 
 
 Between the deviation of migration in one year and 
 deviation of exports and also of imports : 
 
 (a) - - - - - in the same year. 
 
 (fc) - - - - - in the pirevious year. 
 
 (c) - - - - . - previous year but one. 
 
 (d) next year. 
 
 (c) - - - - - next year but one. 
 
 From the nature of the mode of smoothing adopted 
 some of these coefficients will necessarily turn out to 
 be positive and others negative, though if there is no 
 relationship between trade and migation the actual 
 values will be small. The chief object is to determine 
 which particular hiterval gives the highest positive 
 correlation. If we find a high positive correlation 
 between the deviation in migration in one year and 
 the deviations of the exports in the next we can 
 conclude that, on the ichole. a boom in migration in one 
 year is generally followed by an increase in exports in 
 the next. It should be emphasised, however, that the 
 weight to be attached to any coefficient depends upon 
 the iimnber of observations on which it is based and 
 upon its magnitude. In the present case the number of 
 observations — 30 to 32 — is about the minimum number 
 it is advisable to work with. Moreover, it must be 
 remembered that the coefficients merely tell us the 
 average connection between migi-ation and trade, accord- 
 ing to the experience of the 30 years or so considered, 
 and we must lie careful to refrain from generalising 
 from so limited an experience. 
 
 Correlations between the tiuctuationf in emigration 
 from the United Kingdom to the countries named, 
 and the fuc.tiiations in the crj^orts from the United 
 Kingdom. 
 
 Emigration one Year with 
 
 Exports 
 
 Previous year but one 
 
 Previous year 
 
 Same year 
 
 Next year 
 
 Next year but one - 
 
 Austr.ilia. 
 
 Canada. 
 
 + •05 
 + ■49 
 + •01 
 -■30 
 + •17 
 
 -•46 
 — 22 
 + •83 
 -•18 
 -■55 
 
 Duited 
 States. 
 
 - -36 
 + 17 
 
 + •72 
 -■27 
 -1-2 
 
 Correlations lictn-cen the flucinatiotis in emigration 
 from the United Kingdom to the countries named, 
 and the fltirtiiations in the imports to the United 
 Kingdom. 
 
 Emigration one Ye.ar with 
 Imports 
 
 Australia. 
 
 „ ,„ United 
 C'""'^"- Slates. 
 
 Previous year but one 
 
 Previous year 
 
 Same year 
 
 Next year 
 
 Next year but one 
 
 + •19 
 
 . --18 
 -16 
 
 + •27 
 
 +•11 
 
 -■50 
 + •26 
 + ■38 
 -■30 
 -13 
 
 -10 
 -■07 
 + ■37 
 + 13 
 - 32 
 
 The general conclusions to be drawn from these 
 figures are that migration from the United Kingdom is 
 more closely associated with exports than with imports,
 
 MIGKATION. 
 
 63 
 
 and that the relationships between the United Kingdom 
 and the United States and Canada are closer than that 
 with Australia. A difference, too, will be noticed as 
 regards the period at which the maximum correlation 
 occurs. We can approximately find the period at 
 which, on the average, a boom in migration is followed 
 or preceded by a boom in trade by interpolating in each 
 case between the three successive correlations which have 
 the largest one at the centre. When this is done the 
 following conclusions can be drawn : — 
 
 Exportsfrom the TJnited Kingdom 
 
 are most closely related to the Tlie maximum. 
 
 migration of correlation being 
 
 One year later in the case of Australia - -Ai* 
 
 The same time in the case of Canada - - SS 
 About two months after in the case nf (hf 
 
 United States - - - - - -T-'J 
 
 Imports into the United Kingdom 
 are most closely related to the 
 migratio'n of 
 
 About 15 months earlier in the case of 
 
 Australia -...-. -28 
 About 4 months later in the case of Canada 43 
 
 „ 2 „ earlier in the case of the 
 , United States . . , . . -38 
 
 No weight can be attached to differences of two or 
 three months only, and the most strongly supported 
 conclusion to be drawn from the figures is that activity 
 in migration to Canada and to the United States is 
 quite highly correlated with activity in the export trade 
 to those countries at the same time. In the case of 
 Australia the flow of migration appears to have been 
 greatest about one year after the flow of exports to 
 Australia, but the degree of the association is only 
 moderate. The correlations between migration and 
 imports are not high enough to assert definitely that an 
 appreciable degree ot relationship exists between them. 
 So far as they go they appear to suggest that imports 
 into the United Kingdom from the United States and 
 Canada synchi-onize with emigration from the former 
 country to the others, but that imports from Australia 
 follow about one year after the flow of British and Irish 
 emigrants to that continent. This latter conclusion, 
 however, has the least statistical significance of any. 
 
 On account of the large variations in the magnitude 
 of migration during the period considered it might be 
 argued that the deviation from the average should be 
 expressed as a percentage of that average before the 
 correlations were worked out. This is a point of some 
 technical interest, and accordingly in two cases the 
 corresponding results when the deviations have been 
 expressed as percentages of the corresponding averages 
 have been ascertained. 
 
 Correlations between the percentage fluctuation from the 
 average for migration with percentage fluctuation from 
 the average for exports from the United Kingdom. 
 
 Migration one Year with 
 Exports 
 
 Previous year but one 
 
 Previous year 
 
 Same year 
 
 Next year 
 
 Next year but one - 
 
 Australia is there any evidence that activity in migra- 
 tion precedes activity in trade. The figures support the 
 conclusion that migration is merely a phase of an 
 economic phenomenon. The periodic booms in trade in 
 the civilised parts of the world require some redis- 
 tribution of labour, and this is brought about by 
 migration. 
 
 (tjj It is instructive to ascertain the average fluctua- 
 tion in trade which accompanied a fluctuation of a stated 
 amount in the migration. This is given by the so-called 
 •■regression'' of the statistician. The actual results 
 for the years for which the largest correlations were 
 found are stated below ; — 
 
 Considering the experience of the 31 vears 
 1878-1911— 
 
 A year in v:]iich lite JliictauHo'U in the emtgratio-n 
 from the United Kingdom to Canada was 10,000 above 
 the mean of tlie fig ares fo-r the Jive years of which it was 
 the centre was, on the whole, a year in which the exports 
 to Canada were H70,000L above the mean of those five 
 years, and in whicli, the imports from Canada were 
 460,0001. above the corresponding mean. 
 
 A year in which the fluctuation in the emigration from 
 the United Kingdom to the United States was 10,000 above 
 themeanof the figures for the five years of which it was the 
 centre was, on the whole, a year in which the exports to the 
 United States were 1,040,000/. above the mean for those 
 five years, and in which the imports from the United 
 States were 1,210,000/. above the corresponding mean. 
 
 A year in which the fluctuation in the emigration 
 from the United Kingdom to Australasia was 10,000 
 above the mean of the figures for the five years of which 
 it was the centre, followed a year in which the exports 
 to Australasia were, on the whole, 1,490,000/. above the 
 corresponding mean, aiul was followed by a year in 
 which the imports from Australasia were, on the whole, 
 920,000/. above the corresponding mean. 
 
 A reference to the diagrams will assist in the ap- 
 preciation of these statements. Keeping attention on 
 the lines showing the emigration and the exports from 
 the United Kingdom to the United States it is noticed 
 that in some years the fluctuation in emigration is 
 large and in exports is small, and in other years the 
 fluctuation in emigration is small and in exports is 
 large. We wish to strike an average throughout the 
 period covered by the curve. Although there were no 
 years in which the fluctuation in emigration was exactly 
 10,000, the process adopted permits us to approximate 
 to what we should actually find if we had a number of 
 years in which the fluctuation in the emigration was 
 10,000 and we found the mean of the fluctuations of 
 the exports (or imports) for those years. 
 
 These statements as to the mean fluctuation in 
 exports or imports associated with a fluctuation of a 
 given amount in the emigration must be interpreted 
 relative to the average values of exports and imports 
 in each case through the period under consideration 
 (1878-1911). 
 
 Average exports from and imports to the United 
 Kingdom (1878-l!ill). 
 
 These correlations, however, lead to the Same general 
 conclusions as before, viz., that to Australia the flow of 
 migration is, on the average, about a year behind the 
 flow of exports, but in the case of Canada the move- 
 ments synchronize. 
 
 None of the figures so far obtained suggest that mi- 
 gration directly aids the progress of exports and imports. 
 The waves of migration and trade between United 
 Kinu'dom and the comparatively near countries of 
 Canada and the United States occur together, and there 
 is no definite evidence that the wave of migration starts 
 first, and is in any degree the direct cause of the move- 
 ment in trade. Only in the case of the imports from 
 
 Canada - 
 United States - 
 Australasia 
 
 Exports. 
 & 
 
 9,500,000 
 24,800,000 
 24,000,000 
 
 Imparts. 
 
 £ 
 
 17,600,000 
 
 107,400,000 
 
 32,900,000 
 
 The most satisfactory comparison can be made 
 between the figures for Canada and the United States, 
 since the correlations for these countries were found 
 above to be approximately the same. Taking into 
 account the fact that in the 34 years considered the 
 average value of the exports from the United Kingdom 
 to the United States was between two and three times 
 greater than the corresponding value to Canada, it 
 appears that activity of a stated amount in migration 
 was accompanied by a proportionally greater increase in 
 exports to Canada than to the United States, and a 
 similar inference can be drawn with regard to the 
 imports. Considered in proportion to the average 
 values over the 34 years, the figures for Australia 
 indicate increases in the ti-ade of about the same order 
 as those for Canada, but the fact that exports to, 
 precede, and imports from, follow, migration to Australia 
 
 H 4
 
 t>4 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 
 
 -I'APEKS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : 
 
 is to be remembered in the consideration of these 
 figures. The circumstance that the population of the 
 United States is about twenty times as great as that of 
 either Australia or Canada is probably some explana- 
 tion of this diflference, but the fact appears to be 
 definitely substantiated that a particular increment of 
 migration has been oh the average accompanied by a 
 greater proportional increment in trade in the case of 
 the two British colonies than in that of the United 
 States. It may be useful to emphasise again, how- 
 ever, that we have brought forward no evidence 
 that trade accompanies migration as the effect of a 
 cause. 
 
 (7) Fuller information concerning the effect of 
 migration from the United Kingdom to a particular 
 country, say, Canada, would be forthcoming if the trade 
 of the United Kingdom with the remainder of the world 
 were in a stationary state. It may be claimed, for 
 instance, that the relationships we have found above are 
 due to the fact that in a period of boom migration and 
 exports from the United Kingdom to every country are 
 high. It would be of great value, therefore, if it were 
 possible to select a period in which ti-ade between the 
 United Kingdom and the rest of the world, except 
 Canada, were stationary, and in which at the same time 
 migration to Canada were rising. Of course, in actual 
 practice it is not possible to choose a period during which 
 trade between the United Kingdom and most of the world 
 is stationary while at the same time migration to a par- 
 ticular country is active, but by a statistical contrivance 
 known as " partial correlation " the problem can be solved. 
 The method by which this is accomplished need not be dis- 
 cussed here ; it is sufficient to point out that the effect 
 is to modify the various correlation coefficients previously 
 found and to make them comparable with the coefficients 
 which could actually be obtained if the trade between 
 the United Kingdom and the rest of the world other 
 than the countries named in turn were stationary. The 
 figures given below should be interpreted in exactly the 
 same way as the correlations previously given, but with 
 the additional restriction that they refer to a state in 
 which the particular trade concerned between the United 
 Kingdom and the remaining parts of the world is 
 supposed stationary. The modified series of coefficients 
 
 is : — 
 
 Correlations between the fluctuations in emigration from 
 the United Kingdom to the countries named, ami the 
 tlvcttiatio-ns in the exports from the United Kingdom 
 u-hen the exports from the United Kingdom to the rest 
 of the world are supposed stationary. 
 
 Migration one Tear with 
 Exports 
 
 Previous year but one 
 Previous year 
 Same year . . . 
 Next year . . . 
 Next year but one - 
 
 Correlations between the fluctuations in emigration from 
 the United Kingdom to the countries named, and the 
 fluctuations in the imports to the United Kingdom when 
 the imports to the United Kingdom from the rest of the 
 world are supposed stationary. 
 
 Migration one Tear with 
 Imports 
 
 Previous year but one 
 
 Previous year 
 
 Same year 
 
 Next year 
 
 Next year but one - 
 
 Australia. Canada. 
 
 United 
 States. 
 
 + •26 
 -•21 
 —31 
 +•35 
 +•26 
 
 -•38 
 + •42 
 +•16 
 —32 
 +•04 
 
 + ■02 
 + •00 
 +•31 
 +•10 
 -•34 
 
 Taken all round these figures do not greatly differ 
 from those given in paragraph 5 above, and when the 
 periods at which the maximum values are reached 
 
 are worked out (in the same approximate way as before) 
 the following results are obtained : — 
 
 Exports from the United Kingdom The maximum 
 
 are most closely related to the correlation 
 
 migration of being 
 
 One year later in the case of Australia - •oS 
 
 Two months later in the case of Canada - -lo 
 Two months later in the case of the United 
 
 States -l-i 
 
 Imports to the United Kingdom arc The maximum 
 
 most closely related to themigra- correlatioil 
 
 tion of being 
 
 1.5 months earlier in the case of Australia - -40 
 10 months later in the case of Canada - -46 
 
 1 month earlier in the case of the United 
 
 States •SI 
 
 No great modifications in the correlations have been 
 produced by the restrictions introduced in this para- 
 graph. 
 
 (S) The results found in the previous paragraphs 
 enable the following general conclusions to be drawn 
 concerning the relationship between external trade and 
 emigration from the United Kingdom according to the 
 experience of 1878-1911. 
 
 (i) Exports from the United Kingdom to Canada, 
 Austi-alia. and the United States are more closely 
 associated with British and Irish emigration to those 
 countries than are imports from those countries to the 
 United Kingdom. 
 
 (ii) As regards exports, Canada and the United 
 States appear to stand in the same relationship to 
 the United Kingdom. This relationship (•7.5) is a 
 fairly close one. but it will be noticed that, if any- 
 thing, exports to those countries precede rather than 
 follow migration. In the case of Australia the 
 association is not so high (-5), but migration to 
 Australia appears to folloic exports there from the 
 United Kingdom at an interval of about one year. 
 
 (iii) Although the degree of association between 
 migration and imports is not large enough to lay much 
 stress on, so far as the figures can be definitely inter- 
 preted they indicate that only in the case of Australia 
 is the wave of migration from the United Kingdom 
 followed by a return wave of imports. For the United 
 States the two waves approximately synchronize, but 
 the imports into the United Kingdom from Canada 
 precede slightly the migration to the latter country. 
 
 As the figures do not all point in the same direction 
 it is not possible to draw one comprehensive conclusion 
 concerning the effect of migration on trade, but the 
 balance of the evidence does not favour the view that 
 trade fallows migration, but that activity in trade — 
 whatever its genesis- — promotes migration. This is not 
 put forward as a universal generalisation, but is the 
 conclusion drawn from the not entirely satisfactory 
 data of the experience of the United Kingdom during 
 the past 30 years or so. 
 
 (ii) Does ant relationship exist between emi- 
 
 GKATION PROM OR IMMIGEATION TO A COUNTRY 
 AND GENERAL PKOSPEEITY THERE ? (The 
 
 general conclusions formed (m this question are 
 stated in paragraph 13.) 
 
 (9) A very obvious point suggesting itself for 
 investigation in the present connection is that of the 
 association between migration and the state of employ- 
 ment in the country over a series of years. We could pro- 
 ceed as in previous paragraphs by tracing the figures 
 of migration over the last 30 or 40 years and comparing 
 with the covirse of some general index of employment 
 throughout the same interval. The general indices of 
 employment available, however, give but rough approxi- 
 mations to the true state of employment, and they are 
 subject to many extraneous influences which render 
 their interpretation of doubtful value. After due con- 
 sideration it appeared inadvisable to use the Board of 
 Trade index of employment in order to detect any 
 possible association between the state of employment in 
 this country and emigration from it. 
 
 Though the general index of employment is not 
 satisfactory for the present purpose, there is one sign of 
 prosperity which is very suitable for the matter in hand. 
 It is generally accepted that the variations in the
 
 MIORATIOV. 
 
 65 
 
 marriage rate afford a couvenient barometerof the varia- 
 tions of prosperity within a community, and in cora- 
 paring the conditions of different countries this index is 
 probably a much better one than the statistics of 
 clearing-house returns, pauperism, or any of the other 
 indices that may be used for a single country. The 
 conditions with regard to tendency to marry are, no 
 doubt, not precisely the same in the various countries 
 of the British Empire, but they give a much more 
 reliable basis of comparison than do the other indices 
 which have been employed in previous investigations 
 for England. The number of marriages every year is 
 readily known for each division of the British Empire 
 dealt with in this report except Canada. For each of 
 England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, and 
 New Zealand, the figures of marriages and of emigration 
 or immigration have been tabulated over a long series of 
 years and, in the manner indicated in paragraph 2, the 
 deviation of the figure for each year, both for marriages 
 and migration, from the average of the five years of 
 which it is the centre determined. This deviation gives 
 an approximate measure of the degree to which the 
 particular year concerned was one of higli or low 
 marriage rate and has been taken as the index of 
 whether that year was or was not above average pros- 
 perity. The deviation in the case of the marriages can 
 then be compared with the deviation in the same year 
 or in any other in the case of the migration. It is 
 hardly necessary to set these deviations out on diagrams 
 as was done in the case of the foreign trade in paragraph 2. 
 What we wish to ascertain is whether a positive devia- 
 tion in the number of marriages is accompanied, on the 
 average, by a positive or negative deviation in the same 
 or any other year in the case of the.migration. 
 
 (10) As pointed out before, some conclusion can, in 
 a general way, be reached by inspection. This, however, 
 is but a rough-and-ready method, having no scientific 
 value and permitting no sound deductions to he made. 
 The process of determining quantitative coefficients of 
 the degree of association between the various phenomena 
 has consequently again been adopted, a.nd the results 
 obtained from the data worked at can be summarised 
 as follows : 
 
 CorrelaMons between the deviations from the five-yearly 
 averaf/e in the number of marriafjes in the respective 
 countries and the deviation from the five-yearly 
 average in the number of passeiiciers of the nation- 
 ality stated to non-European countries. 
 
 Number of Marriages one 
 
 Year and number of 
 
 Outward I'assengers 
 
 Previous year 
 Same year 
 Next year 
 
 English. I Scotch. I Irish.* 
 (37years.) j (50 jears.) i (39 years.) 
 
 ■4-18 
 + •49 
 +•06 
 
 + •05 
 + •33 
 -10 
 
 +01 
 
 -•46 
 
 •00 
 
 It would be more satisfactory to deal with nett 
 emigration according to nationality, but the form of the 
 published statistics of migration does not permit this 
 to be done. Moreover '■ out-passengers " include some 
 who are not true ernigrants. But we are concerned 
 with the deviations and not with the absolute numbers 
 of passengers, and a year in which the deviation of out- 
 ward passengers is large is no doubt one in which the 
 deviation of true emigration is also large.* 
 
 We infer from the correlations stated that a year of 
 activity in emigration from England and Wales is. on 
 the average, a year in which the marriage rate in 
 England and Wales is high, the correlation reaching a 
 moderate value. In the case of Scotland the correlation 
 is not so marked, but is sufficient to indicate some asso- 
 ciation between the marriage rate and the flow of out- 
 ward passengers. For Ireland a moderate negative 
 correlation will be noticed, demonstrating that a year 
 of high marriage rate is, on the whole, a year in which 
 emigration is below the average. There seems no 
 reason to suppose that the marriage rate is an inferior 
 symptom of prosperity in the case of Ireland (the 
 marriage rate there, measured in terms of the number 
 of marriageable people, is considerably less than in 
 
 * It should be noticed that the tigures nf migration refer 
 to natiunaUty and not to country of last residence. But uo 
 error is likely to arise through taking them to refer to the 
 latter. 
 
 E 20830 
 
 Great Britain) than for the other countries concerned, 
 and the figures shown give evidence that in the period 
 under investigation (ending in each case with 1909) for 
 England and Wales, and to a smaller extent for Scotland, 
 emigi-ation occurred for the most part in years of pros- 
 perity, but for Ireland emigration was most active in 
 years of adversity. The diiference between Ireland 
 and Great Britain is well marked, and brings out the 
 necessity for dealing with these countries separately in 
 such investigations. as the present.* 
 
 (11) Turning now to the consideration of the corre- 
 sponding relationships in the case of the Colonies, we 
 can discuss them in considerable detail for New Zealand, 
 in less detail for Australia, and not at all for Canada. 
 The summary of the results found for Australia is : 
 
 Correlation between the deviation from the five-yearly 
 average in the number of marriages in Australia and 
 the correspotuling deviation in the nett immigration 
 of (a) Males, (b) Females from 1868 to 1909. 
 
 Number of Marriages one 1 (a) Males. ' (i) Females. 
 Year ;uid Nett Immigration (42 years.) (42 years.) 
 
 Previous year 
 Same year 
 Next year 
 
 + •27 
 + •39 
 -•02 
 
 Prom these figures we deduce that the marriage 
 rate in Australia is most highly correlated with the 
 nett immigration of about two months before in the 
 case of the males and thi-ee months before in the case of 
 the females, the maximum values being -43 and 41 
 respectively. Without discussing the significance of 
 these small intervals of time, the evidence points to the 
 conclusion that, on the average, prosperity in Australia 
 was, in the period under discussion, associated with the 
 flow of immigration to a moderate extent. If anythinc, 
 the marriage rate seems to have followed by a short 
 period the tide of immigration. It is possible that a 
 little of the correlation found is due to the fact that the 
 immigrants include a number of persons intending to 
 marry soon after their arrival, but the number of 
 marriages of such people in any one year is but a small 
 proportion of the total. 
 
 (12) The New Zealand statistics of migration allow 
 of a much more thorough discussion. Details are given 
 of both immigrants and emigrants (in a few years the 
 latter exceeded the former) for males and females over 
 12 and also for children. The correlations between the 
 deviation in the nvunber of marriages with the deviation 
 in the number of (i) immigrants, (ii) emigrants, and 
 (iii) nett immigrants have been worked out in the same 
 form as before. 
 
 Correlations between the deviation from the five- 
 yearly average in the number of marriages in New 
 Zealand with the corresponding deviations in (i) 
 immigration, (it) emigration, and (iii) nett immigra- 
 tion of (a) Males over 12, and (b) Females over 12 
 from 1872 to 1909 :— 
 
 Number of Marriages 
 one Year and 
 
 (i) Immigration — 
 
 Previous year - 
 
 Same year 
 
 Next year 
 (ii) Emigration — 
 
 Previous year - 
 
 Same year 
 
 Next year 
 (iii) Nett immigration — 
 
 Previous year - 
 
 Same year 
 
 Next year 
 
 (a) Males. 
 38 years. 
 
 (A) Females 
 3S years. 
 
 -01 
 + •38 
 
 + •27 
 
 + 12 
 + •32 
 + 16 
 
 —17 
 -•30 
 
 + ■26 
 
 —02 
 -11 
 
 + 09 
 
 + •07 
 + •50 
 + 12 
 
 + •12 
 + •35 
 
 + •13 
 
 We deduce from these figures that nett immigration 
 into New Zealand was definitely associated with pros- 
 
 " When we interpolate between the three I'orrelations for 
 each luitiunality to find the period at which the maximum 
 correlation occurs, in not one of the cases is this foun'l to 
 differ .ippreciably from the corresponding figure given iu the 
 second row.
 
 6A 
 
 DOMINIONS EOTAL COMMISSION : — PAPER? LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : 
 
 peritv to about the same extent as in the case of 
 Australia, and approximately to the same extent as 
 prosperity is associated with emigration from England 
 and Wales. The results for immigration and emigration 
 separately indicate that the former was correlated to 
 a fair degree with the marriage rate in New Zealand, 
 but the latter was, if anything, negatively associated 
 with that index of prosperity. 
 
 (13) Reviewing all the results collected to throw 
 light upon the association between prosperity (as evi- 
 denced by variations in the marriage rate) and migra- 
 tion we can summarise them as follows : — 
 
 (i) Emigration from England and Wales iu the 
 last 40 years has been associated to a moderate 
 extent with prosperity in these countries. In 
 the greater part of this period there was little 
 organised emigration. Left to itself popula- 
 tion appears to flow from England and Wales 
 in good times rather than in bad. 
 (ii) Emigration from Scotland has been to a rather 
 smaller extent associated with prosperity in 
 that country. The economic conditions as 
 regards activity of industry and emigration in 
 Scotland are. on the whole, similar to those 
 obtaining in England and Wales, 
 (iii) Emigration from Ireland has been associated to 
 a moderate extent with adversity in that 
 country. Unlike the countries of Great 
 Britain, the flow of population has been 
 greatest in bad times, 
 ^iv) Nett immigration lx)th of males and females 
 into Australia has been correlated to a mode- 
 rate degree with prosperity in that country. 
 If anything the marriage i-ate follows the 
 wave of immigration, 
 (v) Nett immigration lx)th of males and females 
 into New Zealand has been correlated to a 
 moderate degree with prosperity in that coun- 
 try, while gross immigration has also, but to a 
 smaller extent, been associated with prosperity 
 there. Emigration of males, however, has on 
 the -whole occurred in bad times. 
 The general conclusion to be drawn from the results 
 of the last thi'ee paragraphs is. as ret;ards Great Britain, 
 similar to that stated in paragraph 8, viz., emigration 
 occurs in times of good trade ; but the evidence does not 
 indicate that the emigi-ation precedes or in any way 
 causes the prosperity. In the case of Ireland, however, 
 emigration has occurred most in times of bad trade. 
 
 (14) Two other interesting matters arising out of 
 the New Zealand figures can bt considered. In the 
 first place the relationship between the flow of immi- 
 gration into, and of emigration from, that country can 
 be exhibited by the follo^ving correlations : — 
 
 Correlations between the deviation from the five-yearhi 
 average in the number or' immigranfg into, and the 
 eorrespondimj deviation in the number of emigrants 
 from. New Zealand for the years 1872 to 1909 : — 
 
 ImmigratioE one Year 
 with Emigration 
 
 Males 
 
 over 12. 
 
 (3S years). 
 
 FemaleR 
 
 over 12, 
 
 (38 years). 
 
 Previous vear 
 
 -•20 
 
 -14 
 
 Same vear - 
 
 + 11 
 
 + 04 
 
 Next vear 
 
 + •30 
 
 + •25 
 
 Next year but one 
 
 + 03 
 
 + 01 
 
 We conclude from these figures that in the period 
 under review a year of active immigration into New 
 Zealand was followed, on the average, by one of active 
 emigration from that country. The correlation between 
 these waves, however, is only of a small order and little 
 weight can be attached to it. 
 
 The second matter whieh may be referred to is the 
 connection )>etween the flow .of male immigrants and 
 female immigrants, and also of male emigrants and 
 female emigrants. 
 
 Correlations between the deviation from the Jive- 
 yearly average in the number of mole immigrantis 
 {emigrants), and the corresponding deviation in the 
 number of female immigrants (emigrants) into (from) 
 \eic Zealand for the years 1872 to 1909 :— 
 
 Immigration. Emigration. 
 
 + 13 
 
 —28 
 
 + •92 
 
 + ■85 
 
 + •01 
 
 -•08 
 
 Number of Males one Year, 
 and number of Females 
 
 Previous year- 
 Same year 
 Next year 
 
 These figures signify that the waves of male and 
 female immigration are Idghly correlated and practically 
 synchronize. 
 
 (1-5) Although we have made no use of the general 
 index of employment stated month by month in the 
 Board of Trade Labour Gazette, the paragraphs given 
 in that publication on the state of agricultm-al labour in 
 England ailord some interesting material for analysis. 
 This analysis was carried out iu order to ascertain if 
 the reports summarised in those pai^agraphs afford any 
 evidence of the existence of a surplus of agricultural 
 labotirers in England. The statements in the Gazette 
 relating to employment in the agricultural industry are 
 compiled from the returns made by about 220 corre- 
 spondents in various parts of the country, and were for 
 many months previous to February 19l3 classified in 
 four broad geographical divisions : Northern, Midland. 
 Eastern, and Southern and South- Westei^n counties. 
 Though the statements are purely adjectival and contain 
 no figures, they nevertheless constitute a good basis for 
 forming a general opinion of the state of employment in 
 agriculture. In many cases information is given both 
 for day labourers and also for permanent men. a frequent 
 form of statement being '■ There was a good demand for 
 ■• extra labourers .... A surplus of such men was 
 •■ mentioned in the reports from the A. B. C. D. and E 
 •• districts ; iu the F and G districts an insufficiency of 
 •• men was reported. Some scarcity of tiien for per- 
 •■ manent situations was mentioned in the U. V. X. T, 
 •• Z districts." The statements for the 34 months 
 ending January 1913 have been analysed and divided 
 into two groups of 17 months for each of the four 
 geographical divisions and for day labourers and 
 permanent men separately. In the table of analysis 
 the statement above was reduced, to " Day Labourers : 
 " Surplus, 5 ; Scarcity. 2. Permanent Men : Scarcity, 
 " .5." Not all of the statements were so readily dealt 
 «-ith as the one quoted, but for the most part they 
 indicated whether the supply of lalwur was equal to. in 
 excess of. or insufficient for. the demand. The follow- 
 ing svinxmary has been compiled from the analysis 
 made : — 
 
 NOETHERU COITSTIES. 
 
 First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). 
 Day Laboureris. 
 Supply in nearly every case 
 
 Second 17 Months (August 1911 to December 1912). 
 
 said to be equal to or in excess of 
 demand. Surplus of men men- 
 tioned on 7 occasions, in some 
 ctises in many districts. 
 
 Permanent Men 
 
 Only mentioned 
 twice. In each case 
 an excess of men. ^ 
 
 Day Labourers. 
 
 Supply in most cases said to 
 equal demand. But surplus of 
 men in some districts mentioned 
 on 11 occasions and scarcity 
 on 7 ; in one case 4 districts 
 and in another 5 were mentioned 
 in which^scarcity existed. 
 
 Permanent Men. 
 
 Only mentioned 
 twice. In each case 
 a scarcity of men.
 
 ktfiftAtlOJf, 
 
 er 
 
 Midland Cofnties. 
 
 First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). 
 
 Day Labourers. 
 
 Supply ill most cases said to 
 equal demand. Surplus meu- 
 tioned on 10 occasions, in some 
 cases in 4, .5, and 6 districts. 
 Scarcity referred to on 3 occa- 
 sions. 
 
 Permanent Men. 
 
 On 2 occasions 
 supi^ly said to equal 
 
 lemand. In 9 niontlis 
 scarcity referred to, 
 sometimes in 3 or 4 
 districts. 
 
 Second 17 Months (Augu$t 1911 to December 1912). 
 
 Day Labourers. 
 
 In early part of this period a 
 surplus frequently mentioned, 
 but caused chiefly by the failure 
 of the root crop in 1911. In the 
 last 9 mouths of the period 
 surplus only mentioned on 3 
 occasions, but scarcity in every 
 month — twice in 7, once in 8, 
 twice in 9, and once in 16 
 districts. 
 
 Permanent Men. 
 
 Scarcity referred 
 to in 11 of the 17 
 months, the number 
 of districts named 
 varying from 2 to 9. 
 
 Eastern Counties. 
 
 First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). 
 
 Permanent Men. 
 
 D.iy Labourers. 
 
 Supply generally said to 
 equal demand. A surplus in 
 1 or 2 districts mentioned on 
 6 occasions. Scarcity referred 
 to on 15 occasions, in some 
 months in 4. 5. and 6 districts. 
 
 Only mentioned 
 twice. In each case 
 a scarcity. 
 
 Second 17 Months (August 1911 to December 1912). 
 
 Permanent Men. 
 
 Day Labourers. 
 
 In the first 9 months a surplus 
 announced on 8 occasions, chiefly 
 due to the failure of the root 
 crop in 1911. In the last 8 
 months a scarcity referred to on 
 .5 occasions, in one month in 
 9 districts. 
 
 Only noticed 
 three times. In each 
 case a scarcity of 
 men. 
 
 South and South-WesTebn Counties. 
 
 First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). 
 
 Permanent Men. 
 
 Day liabiiurers. 
 
 Surplus observed in 8 of the 
 months, the number of districts 
 named varying from 2 to 10. 
 Scarcity noticed on 4 occasions, 
 once in 9 districts. 
 
 Scarcity referred 
 to in every month 
 but one, the number 
 of districts named 
 varying from 3 to 10 
 and " many." * 
 
 It will be noticed that the right-hand column refers 
 to two harvest periods, and the left-hand to one only. 
 This, however, is hardly likely to vitiate any conclusions 
 drawn, as scarcity of men is not, on the whole, more 
 frequently referred to in harvest months than in others. 
 The iqipressions formed from a study of the summary 
 ai-e : — 
 
 (i) As regards permanent men. — There was un- 
 doubtedly a scarcity of such men in the South 
 and South-Western comities, and to a smaller 
 extent in the Midland counties in both periods. 
 By comparing the second period with the first 
 
 Second 17 Months (August 1911 
 Day Labourers. 
 
 Surplus noticed in 12 months, 
 particularly towards the end of 
 1911, the number of districts 
 mentioned being (5, 8, and 10. 
 In the second half of the period 
 scarcity referred to in 7 mouths, 
 the number of districts varying 
 up to (l. 
 
 to December 1912). 
 Permanent Men. 
 
 Scarcity in every 
 month but two, the 
 number of districts 
 named being as many 
 as 8, 9, 10, 12, and 
 13 in different 
 months. * 
 
 it will be inferred that the scarcity of men 
 is becoming more marked, and is now appear- 
 ing in the other divisions of the country, 
 (ii) As regards day labourers. — A survey of the 
 summary for the first period does not lead 
 to the conclusion that there was any general 
 surplus or general scarcity of labour, but 
 rather that its distribution was not ideal. In 
 the second period there was a rather more 
 marked scarcity of men, screened, however, by 
 the forced unemployment produced by the 
 failure of the root crop in 1911. 
 
 (iii.) What figures are available to illustrate 
 
 THE effect of migration OK PRODUCTION 
 AND CONSUMPTION? 
 
 (It)) The idea underlying this question is to ascer- 
 tain if an emigrant moving from the United Kingdom 
 to the Colonies increases (a) his producing power (b) his 
 consuming power. It may be said at the outset that 
 there are no direct statistical data bearing on this point. 
 General considerations would, no doubt, indicate that 
 under the modern conditions governing migration both 
 production and consumption are increased, but from the 
 complexity of the subject it is impossible to gather 
 statistics which either certainly prove or certainly dis- 
 prove this view. For an adequate answer to the ques- 
 tion to be given it would be necessary to know the 
 average production and consumption of a body of emi- 
 grants from the United Kingdom before emigrating and 
 
 the corresponding averages after settling in the Colonies, 
 and it is clear that such data cannot be forthcoming. 
 Much material on general production and oousumptiou 
 in the United Kingdom and the various Colonies has 
 been gathered together, but very little of it can be said 
 to be relevant to the particular matter under discussion. 
 With reference to the question of consumption, the 
 approximate amounts of certain staple commodities 
 consumed in certain Bi'itish (Countries are known for a 
 series of years. The statistics of individual commodities, 
 however, are of little value in the present inquiry. For 
 example, in New South Wales between 190.5-t5 and 
 1909-10 the consumption of flour, oatmeal, and rice per 
 head diminished from 2.51 to 238 lb., but that of butter 
 increased from 22-1 to 2-5-4 lb., and no opinion can be 
 formed from such facts as these on the tendency of 
 consumption in general. For proper comparison it 
 is necessary to employ some general index of con- 
 
 * It is stated that the scarcity of men is frequently for work, e.g., milking, requiring Sunday labour 
 
 i 2
 
 68 
 
 DOMIXIOSS BOYAL COMMlSSiOS' i — PAPERS LAtD 6EF0RE THE COMMISSlOS : 
 
 sumption which will allow of the variations in the con- 
 sumption of nil commodities being taken into account. 
 Such an index is shown for the years 1880-1011 in the 
 recent " Report of Commission on the Cost of Living in 
 New Zealand " (1912) and is given below. A similar 
 index, too, is discussed in the lately published " Prices, 
 Price Indexes, and Cost of Living in Australia'' (No. 1). 
 issued by the Commonwealth Bureau of Census and 
 Statistics (Lalx)ur and Industrial Branch), but the 
 indexes there are given only for 1911 and the quinquen- 
 nial periods 1903-7, 1905-9, and 1907-11. For Canada 
 no such indexes can be formed ; for the United Kingdom 
 approximate indexes could lie found by means of the 
 figures of imports and exports and the agricultural 
 retiu-ns for a number of commodities over a series of 
 years, but would involve a large amount of labour. This 
 labour would not be repaid by the light the results 
 would throw upon the problem in hand, since (1) it is 
 necessary that the bases upon which the indexes for 
 different countries are formed should be the same — i.e., 
 if we take l,OO0 to represent the general consumption 
 per head in the United Kingdom in 1911 and the same 
 figure as the index for Australia in that year, we must 
 ensui-e that the 1.000 in each case refers to the same 
 amotmts of consumption, (2) the index gives only the 
 average measure of consumption over the whole popu- 
 lace in a particular country, and it is unwarranted to 
 assume that the emigrant population from the United 
 Kingdom is drawn from that particular portion of the 
 Ijeople with average consuming power. Even assuming 
 that the conditions indicated in (1) and (2) are satis- 
 fied, the fact that in a year in which a large number 
 of emigrants are removed from the United Kingdom 
 to Australia the index of consumption per head was, 
 say. 900. and in the next year it rose to 920. while the 
 corresponding index for Australia increased from 950 to 
 970, cannot lie taken as certain evidence that the mi- 
 grants increased their consuming power. For these 
 i-easons the only indexes of consumption per head which 
 are given here are those already published for New 
 Zealand and Australia. The New Zealand figures (to- 
 gether with certain other interesting statistics) are : * 
 
 
 Index 
 of 
 
 Xett 
 
 Index of 
 
 Index of 
 Bank- 
 ruptcy 
 Plate. 
 
 Index of 
 Volume 
 
 Tear. 
 
 Con- 
 sumption 
 per Head. 
 
 Immi- 
 gration. 
 
 Marriage 
 Rate. 
 
 of Liquor 
 consumed 
 per Head. 
 
 
 
 Thousands 
 
 
 
 
 1880 
 
 102 
 
 7-2 
 
 104 
 
 411 
 
 
 1881 
 
 123 
 
 1-6 
 
 103 
 
 396 
 
 — 
 
 1882 
 
 144 
 
 3-5 
 
 109 
 
 356 
 
 — 
 
 1883 
 
 131 
 
 100 
 
 106 
 
 412 
 
 — 
 
 1884 
 
 123 
 
 9-3 
 
 106 
 
 205 
 
 — 
 
 1885 
 
 122 
 
 4-5 
 
 103 
 
 233 
 
 119 
 
 1886 
 
 112 
 
 11 
 
 93 
 
 246 
 
 113 
 
 1887 
 
 104 
 
 1-0 
 
 93 
 
 230 
 
 109 
 
 1888 
 
 97 
 
 -9-2 
 
 93 
 
 195 
 
 110 
 
 1889 
 
 98 
 
 0-2 
 
 92 
 
 165 
 
 97 
 
 1890 
 
 95 
 
 -1-8 
 
 95 
 
 142 
 
 108 
 
 1891 
 
 95 
 
 -3-2 
 
 94 
 
 130 
 
 105 
 
 1892 
 
 ,108 
 
 50 
 
 96 
 
 107 
 
 107 
 
 1893 
 
 108 
 
 10-4 
 
 96 
 
 100 
 
 103 
 
 1894 
 
 106 
 
 2-3 
 
 95 
 
 129 
 
 97 
 
 1895 
 
 103 
 
 0-9 
 
 99 
 
 96 
 
 95 
 
 1896 
 
 111 
 
 1-5 
 
 96 
 
 80 
 
 90 
 
 1897 
 
 121 
 
 2-8 
 
 95 
 
 79 
 
 93 
 
 1898 
 
 122 
 
 2-7 
 
 95 
 
 74 
 
 94 
 
 1899 
 
 125 
 
 1-9 
 
 92 
 
 70 
 
 98 
 
 1900 
 
 146 
 
 1-8 
 
 94 
 
 56 
 
 103 
 
 1901 
 
 160 
 
 6-5 
 
 96 
 
 39 
 
 108 
 
 1902 
 
 155 
 
 80 
 
 95 
 
 34 
 
 105 
 
 1903 
 
 174 
 
 11-3 
 
 97 
 
 31 
 
 107 
 
 1904 
 
 183 
 
 10-4 
 
 99 
 
 41 
 
 106 
 
 1905 
 
 171 
 
 9-3 
 
 100 
 
 47 
 
 102 
 
 1906 
 
 187 
 
 12-8 
 
 99 
 
 52 
 
 107 
 
 1907 
 
 196 
 
 5-7 
 
 loo 
 
 53 
 
 113 
 
 1908 
 
 196 
 
 14-3 
 
 100 
 
 61 
 
 114 
 
 19(j9 
 
 171 
 
 4-7 
 
 100 
 
 71 
 
 104 
 
 1910 
 
 191 
 
 3-4 
 
 96 
 
 60 
 
 107 
 
 1911 
 
 195 
 
 4-2 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 The Australian figures (together with certain statis- 
 tics of the deposit banks) are ; — * 
 
 
 1903-7 
 
 1905-9 
 
 1907-11 
 
 1 
 
 1911 
 
 Index of consump- 
 
 
 
 
 
 tion of 16 arti- 
 
 
 
 
 
 cles 
 
 876 
 
 903 
 
 943 
 
 1,000 
 
 Index of numlier 
 
 
 
 
 
 of depositors 
 
 
 
 
 
 per 1.000 of 
 
 
 
 
 
 population 
 
 790 
 
 845 
 
 912 
 
 1,000 
 
 Index of aver- 
 
 
 
 
 
 aire amount of 
 
 
 
 
 
 deposit - 
 
 865 
 
 900 
 
 951 
 
 1,000 
 
 Index of deposit 
 
 
 
 
 
 per head of 
 
 
 
 
 
 population 
 
 685 
 
 762 
 
 869 
 
 1,000 
 
 Average nett im- 
 
 
 
 
 
 migration (thou- 
 
 
 
 
 
 sand ) 
 
 -51 
 
 50 
 
 26-3 
 
 69-3 
 
 The feature of the figures in the table for New Zea- 
 land is that the index of consumption was lowest in 
 that period (1887-1891) in which 13.000 more people 
 left the country than entered it, and that in the years of 
 the present century, with a considerable influx of immi- 
 grants, the index of consumption has reached very 
 high values. In the case of Australia the index rose 
 with the volume of immigration. In each country the 
 evidence associates a h/i/h index of consumption with, 
 active immigration. This does not. however, justify the 
 assmnption that the activity in immigration is, to any 
 extent, the cause of the increase in consumption, and in 
 the light of the results previously found upon the asso- 
 ciation between migration, trade, and general prosperity, 
 it is more logical to assume that the boom in migration 
 and the higher consumption are merely separate indica- 
 tions of general prosperity. 
 
 When we come to consider the question of the effect 
 of migration on production in the various countries the 
 difficulties are greater, and the material more sparse. 
 The Summary of Commonu-ealth Production Statistics, 
 published annually during the past few years, contains 
 much information concerning the production of indi- 
 vidual commodities and articles of commerce. But, 
 again, it is necessary to use a general index of total 
 production per head, and such indexes have only been 
 given for the vears 1908-11. The latest available figures 
 are (Bulletin No. 6 (1902-11), p. 106, No. IX.): 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 
 Mid-year 
 
 
 Total Pro- 
 
 Total 
 
 Produc- 
 
 Year. 
 
 Total Pro- 
 
 duction 
 
 Produc- 
 
 tion less 
 
 
 duction. 
 
 less Manu- 
 
 tion per 
 
 Manu- 
 
 
 
 
 factures. 
 
 Head. 
 
 factures 
 per Head. 
 
 
 (000) 
 
 (£000) 
 
 (£000) 
 
 £ 
 
 £ 
 
 1906 
 
 4,060 
 
 — 
 
 115,850 
 
 
 
 28-5 
 
 1907 
 
 4,124 
 
 — 
 
 129,871 
 
 
 
 31-5 
 
 1908 
 
 4,194 
 
 164,957 
 
 128,320 
 
 39-4 
 
 30-6 
 
 1909 
 
 4,275 
 
 174,583 
 
 134,385 
 
 40-8 
 
 31-4 
 
 1910 
 
 4,370 
 
 187,734 
 
 142,136 
 
 43-0 
 
 32-5 
 
 1911 
 
 4,490 
 
 188,745 
 
 137,814 
 
 42-0 
 
 30-7 
 
 * A Parliamentary Paper giving " Consumption of Articles 
 in Commjn Use" per head of population was issued in Isew 
 Zealand in iyi2— Session II,, H -9. 
 
 The figures of total production per head fluctuate 
 from year to year, but there appears to have been an 
 increase in total production per head during a period of 
 growing immigration. 
 
 As regards New Zealand, the annual volume of 
 •• Statistics of the Dominion of New Zealand " has a 
 whole section devoted to production statistics. This 
 contains much information upon agricultural produc- 
 tion, and also upon the output of many individual 
 industries. It gives no general index of production for 
 
 * The actual amounts consumed per head of 16 commo- 
 dities and the corresponding indexes are given in full on p. 85 
 on the report " Prices, Price Indexes, and Cost of Living in 
 Australia," previously referred to.
 
 illGftAttO*^. 
 
 m 
 
 the whole country year by year, however, and conse- 
 quently throws no direct light upon the present subject. 
 
 For Canada, certain bulletins of the census of 
 manufactures and the census of dairy industries for the 
 year 1910 have been published, but those upon other 
 parts of agricultural industry have not yet teen issued. 
 The census of manufactures gives figures showing the 
 production at .5-yearly intervals, but no direct compari- 
 son of the total production of Canada with the course 
 of migration is possible, and the figures need not he 
 considered here. Nor can anything definite concerning 
 the total production per head, and its relation to emi- 
 gration, be shown for the United Kingdom. Details of 
 agricultural production are known. Vjut the recent 
 report of the Census of Production is the first attempt 
 to determine the aggregate production of the manufac- 
 tures of England and Wales, and the results afford no 
 material for the discussion of the problem in hand. 
 
 To sum up the results of the investigation carried 
 out in this section : there are no proper statistical data 
 to enable a well-grounded opinion to be formed of the 
 increase in consuming and producing power of emigrants 
 when removed from the United Kingdom to the Colonies. 
 The little evidence which the Australian and New Zea- 
 land statistics afford indicates that consumption per 
 head rises in times of active immigration, and is low 
 when immigration is slack. There is just a little evi- 
 dence, too, favouring the view that production per head 
 in Australia increases with immigration. These con- 
 clusions are quite consistent with the results previously 
 found upon the association tetween migration and 
 prosperity, and do not necessarily demonstrate that the 
 activity in migration is to any extent the cause of the 
 increase in production and consumption. 
 
 (iv) The population and vital statistics op 
 
 THE VARIOUS COUNTRIES. AND ESTIMATES OF 
 FUTURE POPULATIONS. 
 
 (17) In this section the population and. vital statis- 
 tics of the various parts of the Empire previously dealt 
 with are discussed. In addition to the actual census 
 figures published at decennial periods, certain aspects 
 of the fertility and mortality figures of the different 
 countries are important in connection with estimates of 
 future populations, and although it is not possible to 
 take into account every one of these figures in the 
 attempts made later on at estimating the future popula- 
 tion of the various countries, their consideration will he 
 of some service. 
 
 Table II. shows for England and Wales, Scotland, 
 Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, the 
 actual census populations (in most cases) since 1861, 
 both for males and females, distinguishing adults from 
 children. The age 15 has been taken as the division 
 between these ; this was necessary in order to obtain 
 uniform figures, since in some early census reports 
 quinquennial age-groups alone are employed. 
 
 Table III. shows for each country and census the 
 proportion of the population under 1.5 to the corre- 
 sponding total population, and Table IV. the increase 
 in the various populations in the intercensal periods. 
 
 The points to be noticed in these tables are : — 
 
 (i) In every country the proportion of males and 
 females under 15 to total males and females 
 is diminishing. 
 
 (ii) The proportions for males are no higher in 
 the Colonies than in the old countries of 
 the United Kingdom. 
 
 (iii) In England and Wales, and in Scotland, be- 
 tween 1861-71, and again tetween 1871-81 
 (except the males in Scotland) the population 
 under 15 increased more rapidly than did that 
 over 15. The falling birth and death rates 
 have teen chiefly responsible for a complete 
 change, so that in the last two decennia the 
 popiilation. over 15 increased alwut three 
 times as fast as the younger population. In 
 Ireland the loss of population during the 
 past 30 years has teen proportionally greater 
 at ages under 15. The figures for the 
 Colonies fluctuate considerably, but the same 
 phenomenon of a diminishing rate of in- 
 crease of the child i^opiilation is evident. 
 New Zealand appears to have picked up 
 
 considerably in the last decade, the increase 
 in the chUd population in the previous one 
 having teen negligible. 
 (18) To show in detail the means by which the 
 various increases in population have accrued Tables V. 
 and VI. have teen drawn up. Table V. shows the 
 numters of births, deaths, and nett migration for 
 intercensal periods, teth for males and females, for 
 each of the countries except Canada.* For Australia 
 and New Zealand the nett migration in the lO-year 
 periods are given directly from ofiBcial sources. For 
 the United Kingdom, however, these have teen esti- 
 mated from a knowledge of the census populations and 
 the births and deaths registered. The estimates are 
 probably not quite exact, but are suflicient for the 
 present purpose, and have been given to the nearest 
 thousand only. Table VI. shows the birth-, death-, 
 migration-, and total increase rates in each case. These 
 are based upon the mean of the census populations at 
 the teginning and end of the periods referred to. 
 The points brought out by these tables are : — 
 (i) The rate of increase of the population in the 
 whole of that portion of the Empire under 
 consideration was appreciaVjly greater iu the 
 latest decade than iu the previous one — for 
 males the rate of morease rose from 101 per 
 cent, to 12-5 per cent., and for females from 
 10-4 per cent, to 114 per cent. The large 
 excess in the rate of increase of males 
 in 1901-10 over females is conspicuous, aa 
 in all previous periods the rates of increase 
 of males and females had been approximately 
 the same. The only individiml country in 
 which a considerable change in the relative 
 rate of increase of males compared with 
 females occurred was Canada. Had the male 
 population there inci-eased at the same rate 
 as the female, the effect on the population of 
 the aggregate of the countries would have 
 teen that the rate of increase of the males 
 was reduced to te practically the same as 
 the females, as was actually the case in pre- 
 vious decennia. This is some evidence that 
 Canada received an excess of males from 
 places outside the Empire, and is no doubt 
 accounted for by the influx of farmers and 
 others from the western provinces of the 
 United States.f 
 
 * The numters of births and deaths in Canada are not 
 
 known tor every year, but only for census years. For the 
 province of Ontario, however, the numbers of births and 
 deaths registered every year are known. 
 
 f On the question of the migration between Canada and 
 the United States tlie following figures from the United States 
 Immigration Reports are of interest : — 
 
 Movement peom 
 
 Canada to 
 
 United States. 
 
 — 
 
 U.S. 
 Citizens. 
 
 Canadian 
 Citiijena. 
 
 Others. 
 
 Total. 
 
 1911-12 
 1910-11 
 1909-10 
 
 38,317 
 31.432 
 22,8.32 
 
 42,649 
 44,439 
 44,340 
 
 26,977 
 29,641 
 27,356 
 
 109,943 
 
 105,512 
 
 94,528 
 
 Movement pbom United States to Canada. 
 
 1911-12 
 
 1910-11 
 1909-10 
 
 U.S. 
 Citizens. 
 
 97,951 
 74,197 
 78,697 
 
 Canadian 
 Citizens. 
 
 20,086 
 17,078 
 1.5,023 
 
 Others. 
 
 2.5,214 
 28,478 
 22,477 
 
 Total. 
 
 143,251 
 119,753 
 1 1 6,377 
 
 The question of analysing the movement of population 
 Ijetween Canada an:! the Uniteil States is a ilillioult one. 
 From a special inquirv referred to in the report fiu- the year 
 ending June 19ii9, it was inferred that not less than three- 
 sevenths of the so-called Canadian citizens referred to above 
 w-ere originally American citizens returning to the United 
 States after sampling Canada. At the same time, however, it 
 appears that I he movement into Canadaexceeds that out of it. 
 The recently issued bulletin of the oeususof Canada on " Origins 
 of the People" throws no light upon the increase iu the num- 
 ber of natives of the United States domiciled iu Canada. 
 
 I 3
 
 <ll 
 
 boMINins,^ ROYAL OOMMlSSloV !— P\PEas LAtD BEFORE THE COMltlSSIOK : 
 
 (ii) The fall in the birth and death rates has been 
 general throughout aU the countries. In 
 New Zealand the decline in the former — 
 which was very rapid between 1881 and 1901 
 — appears to have been arrested, and more 
 exact material given later on indicates that a 
 similar point is being reached in Australia. 
 The figures in Table VI., however, are given 
 solely to show in what manner the increase 
 in population accrues, and are not intended 
 to represent correct indices of fertility. 
 These are arranged in Tables VII. and 
 
 vin. 
 
 (iii) The apparent paradox that whereas in the United 
 Kingdom the male birth rate is greater tiian the 
 female, while in Australia and New Zealand 
 the reverse is the case, is explained by the fact 
 that there is an excess of males in the last two 
 countries but of females in the United Kiug- 
 dom. The rate of increase due to births in 
 Ireland is low, but this is accounted for by the 
 small proportion of married people (see Table 
 IX.). The rate of loss due to death is much 
 smaller for Australia and New Zealand than 
 for the United Kingdom. 
 
 (iv) The total rate of increase is diminishing in 
 England and Wales and. with fluctuations, also 
 in Scotland and the Australasian Colonies. 
 The drain of population which had been 
 manifest in Ireland for many years, appears 
 to have been arrested since the openiug of 
 the present century. In Canada, after 
 three decades of declining rate of increase, 
 a very considerable rise has occurred since 
 1901. 
 
 (v) Taking the aggregate of the countries referred 
 to in Table V.. it will be noticed that the 
 bii'th and death rates over the whole have 
 steadily diminished, and that in each decade 
 there was an excess of emigration from those 
 countries. The rate of increase, both for 
 males and for females, when Canada is 
 included, has never fallen below 10 per cent, of 
 the mean population in 10 years, and during 
 the past 30 years has risen rather than fallen. 
 The figures of the total population included 
 vfithin all the countries at the past five 
 censuses, together with the corresponding 
 rates of increase on the mean intercensal 
 populations are : — 
 
 Census. 
 
 1871 
 1881 
 1891 
 1901 
 1911 
 
 Total Population. 
 (000.) 
 
 Rate of Increase on Mean 
 Population per cent. 
 
 37,089 
 41,950 
 46,367 
 51,378 
 57,890 
 
 1871-81—12-3 
 
 1881-91—10-0 
 
 1891-1901-10-2 
 
 1901-1911—11-9 
 
 The correspondmg increases in the case of 
 the United States were 26-2, 22-1, 189 and 
 19-4 per cent, respectively, the population at 
 the last census (1910) being 91,972,000. 
 
 (19) The figures given in Table VI. are sufficient to 
 demonstrate that the rate of increase of the population 
 by means of births is diminishing, but do not accurately 
 disclose the true state of aifairs as regards the decline 
 in fertility of the people. As this is important in connec- 
 tion with the future population of the Empire, it is 
 discussed in some detail in this paragraph. The xisual 
 method of measuring the fertility of a jjarticular popu- 
 lation is by ascertaining the number of children bom 
 to 1,000 married women of child-bearing ages. Table VII. 
 
 shows the number of legitimate births per 1,000 married 
 women between 15 and 45 for as many countries and 
 States as possible for each census year from 1861. The 
 most striking feature of this table is the fall in the 
 fertility rate for England and Wales. Scotland, and 
 the Australasian colonies smce 1881, and the fact that 
 there has been practically no decline at all among the 
 Irish women. A further point to be noticed is that 
 the fall in Australia appears to have been arrested during 
 1901-1911, in which period it continued unabated in 
 Great Britain. The married women of England and 
 Wales in 1911 had the least fertility of these in any 
 part of the Empire under consideration, and the Irish 
 women the greatest. It would be of great interest to 
 know if this higher birth rate among women of Irish 
 birth is general all over the world. No adequate 
 answer can at present be given, but the pomt is referred 
 to Ijelow. Certainly in England the towns with the 
 largest proportions of Iiish population show the higher 
 fei'tility rates. The fact that the actual fertility of 
 Irish women is large while the rate of increase by births 
 is low, is explained by the low proportion of married 
 people in Ireland {see Table IX.). 
 
 Another convenient way of indicating the relative 
 fertility rates in ditt'erent countries and their course 
 over a series of years is by means of a table showing the 
 number of births in each census year per marriage in 
 the previous year. This is given in Table VIII., the 
 figures referring to total number of births. 
 
 The number of births per marriage has fallen most 
 in New Zealand and Australia, and least in Ireland. 
 In 1911 it was approximately the same in England and 
 Wales as for the Australasian colonies. 
 
 (20) For the full interpretation of the figures in the 
 last paragraph the corresponding marriage rates must 
 be considered. The most satisfactory way of doing 
 this is to show the proportion of mai-ried men and women 
 to the corresponding total numbers in certain age 
 groups. Table IX. gives these figui-es for the parts of 
 the United Kingdom and the Australasian colonies for 
 the last two censuses. The corresponding proportions 
 cannot be given for Canada. 
 
 The feature brought out by Table IX. is the exceed- 
 ingly low proportion of married people in Ireland. For 
 males, at the age group 20-25, the proportion of married 
 men in England and Wales is three times as great as that 
 in Ireland, and is considerably higher than that of any of 
 the other countries. At ages 25-35 the proportion in 
 England and Wales is twice as great as that in Ireland, 
 and again considerably in excess of that of each of the 
 other countries. The differences become less marked at 
 older ages, but still exist. Turning to the figures for 
 females, the proportion in England and Wales is, on the 
 whole, slightly less than those in the Colonies, but is, in 
 the early age groups, twice as great as the corresponding 
 one in Ireland. In comparing the figures for 1911 with 
 those for 1901. a diminution in the proportion of 
 married people — both males and females^ — is manifest 
 in England and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, but for 
 Australia and New Zealand the proportion increased. 
 The proportions in the Australasian colonies, however, 
 are still considerably less than those obtaining in 
 Great Britain. 
 
 In reading Table IX. the excess of females in 
 England and Wales and of males in the Colomes 
 must be borne in mind. Figures to illustrate this point 
 have been collected in Table X. This shows the excess 
 in the number of vinmarried females over unmarried 
 males in age groups at the censuses of 1901 and 1911 for 
 each country (except Canada), and for the urban and 
 rural districts of England and Wales separately in 
 1911. 
 
 Bearing in mind the fact that the age at marriage 
 for women is generally less than that for men, 
 Table X. is, nevertheless, instructive and rather 
 modifies some genei-al impressions. In 1911 the number 
 of immarried females in England and Wales between 
 15 and 55 exceeded the number of men between these 
 ages by 189,700, but this was practically all accounted 
 for by the ages over 35. In fact, between 20 and 30 
 there was an actual excess of unmarried males in Eng- 
 land and Wales of 33,600. The details for urban and 
 rural districts indicate that the surplus of males was 
 entirely in the rural districts (76,500 between 20 and 30), 
 the females exceeding the males in the urban districts
 
 MIGRATION. 
 
 71 
 
 to the extent of 42,900. Domestic service, of course, 
 accounts for much of this difference, but the figures 
 have bearing upon the subject of the migration of 
 young unmarried women to the colonies. In this con- 
 nection it may bo appropriately noticed that the excess 
 of unmarried females between 15 and 35 diminished 
 from 38,900 in 1901 to 7,100 in 1911, while between 
 35 and 55 there was a corresponding increase from 
 127,600 to 182,600. The feature of the figures for 
 Ireland is that they show an excess of immarried males 
 at every age group, and in this respect that country 
 resembles the Colonies. For Australia the excess of un- 
 married males between 15 and 35 grew from 108,700 in 
 1901 to 123,700 in 1911. and for New Zealand from 
 19,700 to 38,700. The columns giving the totals for the 
 whole of the countries concerned are interesting. They 
 show that the total excess of unmarried males between 15 
 and 35 increased from 165,800 to 248,300 between 1901 
 and 1911, while at the same time the surplus of un- 
 married females between 35 and 55 expanded from 52,300 
 to 99,700. 
 
 (21) In view of the opinions frequently expressed 
 (see, for example, the answers to questions 981-990 and 
 No. 17 { (c) on p. 240) in Appendix II. in the Minutes of 
 Evidence taKen by the Commission in London during 
 October and November 1912 [Cd. 6516]) upon the exist- 
 ence in England and Wales of a large surplus of women 
 suitable for emigration to the Dominions a more detailed 
 analysis of the statistics is <lesirable. These opinions, 
 it may at once be pointed out, rest upon a superficial 
 perusal of the statistical evidence and are not supported 
 by a more thoi-ough investigation. As shown above, 
 in spite of the considerable excess in the number of 
 females ovei' males in England and Wales the surplus 
 of unmarried women of emigrable ages (say 15-35) 
 over men between the same ages is quite small,* and 
 it is indicated below that even this small surplus is 
 not of the type that is urgently required by the Colonies 
 and can at the same time be spared by om'selves. 
 Fiu'ther results from the recent census will be required 
 before a perfectly complete analysis can be made, 
 but sufficient data already exist to show that the 
 geographical distribution of the excess accords 
 generally with the distribution of social status. In the 
 better-class districts the surplus of women is most 
 pronounced, while in the poorer districts there appears 
 to be an appreciable surplus of unmairied men between 
 15 and 35. 
 
 In the case of the Loiidcm boroughs this can be 
 amply demonstrared. The difficulty is to get an 
 adequate measure of social status, but two of those 
 used by Heron are quite satisfactory for the present 
 pui-pose. These are, (a) the proportion of professional 
 men per 1,000 occupied males, and (b) the number of 
 domestic servants per 100 families. Table XI shows 
 these for each of the London boroughs for 19(Jlt 
 together with the number of unman-ied males and 
 females both between 15 and 35 and also between 35 
 and 55 at the census of 1911, and the coiTCsponding 
 surpluses. 
 
 The two criteria of social status agree fairly well, 
 but the chief point brought out by the table is that 
 there is no excess of young unmarried women in the 
 poor boroughs of the east and south-east of London. 
 The sui'plus in London is wholly in the more wealthy 
 parts, and consists largely of domestic sci-vants — a 
 
 * Even if, lemeiubering tL;at the average age at marriage 
 of men in the whole of England and Wales is between a year 
 and a half and two years higher than that of women, we 
 compare unmarried women (15-35) with unmarried men 
 (17-37) the excess of women is only about 500,000 instead of 
 the 1,179,000 referred to in the Memorandum of the British 
 Women's Emigration Association. This figure, however, is 
 apt to be misleading unless it also be remeinbered thai the 
 difference in age at marriage between men and women in the 
 upper classes is much greater than in the classes with which 
 the emigration societies chiefly deal. In the artisan and 
 labouring classes the difference is mach less than in the 
 professional and commercial classes. Moreover, the facts 
 brought out with regard to the distribution according to 
 social status of the surplus of women (15-35) over men 
 (15-35) will still hold with regard to the surplus of women 
 (15-35) over men (17-37). 
 
 + Taken from Dr. Heron's memoir ''On the Relation of 
 Fertility in Man to Social Status " (1906). F.dii.lnii, Uulau 
 & Co. 
 
 scarcity of whom already exists in this country — and 
 probably to a smaller extent of better-to-do women, 
 whose emigration the Dominions do not vitally 
 need. 
 
 The places in the table can readily be arranged in 
 three grotips according to social status — Group I, con- 
 sisting of the first 10, Group II, of the next 9, and 
 Group III, of the last 8. T.he details concemiug 
 these groups are : — 
 
 
 Group I. ' Group II. 
 
 1 
 
 Group III, 
 
 ? 
 
 ^ 
 
 , 
 
 e^ I -r 
 
 ■c 
 
 
 „ 
 
 _ 
 
 ,*- 
 
 w' 
 
 « 
 
 ^' - 
 
 
 
 " c 
 
 ij 
 
 •S! B 1 
 
 - _; 
 
 
 
 
 
 r- cj 
 
 
 
 r- cj 
 
 
 to 
 
 
 rt != 
 
 — S 3 => 
 
 = Fi 
 
 — — 
 
 
 5 n 
 
 - H 
 
 < 
 
 
 
 n 1^ 
 
 i^ 
 
 5^ 
 
 SS 
 
 
 
 
 D 
 
 D 
 
 ^ D P 
 
 ■f. 
 
 -' 
 
 D 
 
 
 
 Id Thousands. 
 
 In Thousands. 
 
 In Thousands. 
 
 15-20 
 
 48,8 
 
 fi3,6 
 
 11,8 
 
 80,3 
 
 84,1 
 
 3,8 
 
 58,3 
 
 57,5 
 
 — 0,8 
 
 -25 
 
 48,0 
 
 71,5 
 
 23,5 
 
 68,8 
 
 69,8 
 
 1,0 
 
 13,1 
 
 39,9 
 
 - 3.2 
 
 -30 
 
 30.1 
 
 51,3 
 
 21.2 
 
 40,5 
 
 39,4 
 
 — 1,1 
 
 23,2 
 
 17,0 
 
 — 6,2 
 
 -35 
 
 1(!,1 
 
 31,3 
 
 15,2 
 
 20,8 
 
 22,3 
 
 1,5 
 
 12,0 
 
 8,0 
 
 -4,0 
 
 -10 
 
 10,2 
 
 22,1 
 
 11,9 
 
 12,3 
 
 15.4 
 
 3,1 
 
 7,6 
 
 4,8 
 
 — 3,S 
 
 -i5 
 
 7,0 
 
 lfi,4 
 
 9,4 
 
 8,4 
 
 11.4 
 
 3,0 
 
 5,6 
 
 3,4 
 
 — 2,2 
 
 -50 
 
 5,3 
 
 12,8 
 
 7,5 
 
 6,1 
 
 8,8 
 
 2,7 
 
 4.2 
 
 2.6 
 
 - 1,6 
 
 -•■30 
 
 4,2 
 
 9,3 
 
 .5,1 
 74,7 
 
 4,3 
 
 6,7 
 
 a,4 
 
 3,3 
 
 2,0 
 
 — 1,3 
 
 15-35 
 
 143,0 
 
 217,7 
 
 210.4 
 
 21.5,6 
 
 5,2 
 
 136,6 
 
 122,4 
 
 —14-; 
 
 35-55 
 
 26,7 
 
 60,6 
 
 33,9 
 
 31,1 
 
 42,3 
 
 11,2 
 
 20,7 
 
 12,8 
 
 - 7,9 
 
 It will be noticed that while there were at the date 
 of the census, 1911, in the whole of London, 66,000 
 more unmarried women than unmarried men between 
 15 and 35, this surplus was more than accounted for 
 by the better parts, and that in those places where 
 factory and home work are common, there wasanactual 
 excess of more than 14,000 in the number of unmarried 
 men over unmarried women between those ages. These 
 fio'ures give no countenance to the view that there are 
 in London many thousands of unmarried women who 
 could, with general advantage, be removed to the 
 Colonies, 
 
 Similar conclusions follow from the study of the 
 figures relating to outer London, The census volume 
 referring to age and conjugal condition, gives details 
 for only 15 localities in outer London (counting 
 Southend in this category), and these readily admit 
 of division into two groups according to social status 
 (the actual criterion adopted iu the division was the 
 corrected birth-rate, which has been demonstrated to 
 give a good measure of social status). East Ham, 
 Leyton, Walthamstow, West Ham, Edmonton. Eutield, 
 and Tottenham form a lower group, and Ilford, 
 Southend, Acton. Ealing, Hornsey. Willesden. Croy- 
 don, and Wimbledon an upper group. The figures for 
 these groups are : — 
 
 
 Upper Group, 
 
 Lower Group. 
 
 Age 
 Period, 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Men. 
 
 Women- 
 
 Surplus 
 Women. 
 
 Men. 
 
 Women. 
 
 Surplus 
 Women. 
 
 15-20 
 
 27,1 
 
 34.7 
 
 7.6 
 
 42,8 
 
 42.9 
 
 11,. 
 
 -25 
 
 22,0 
 
 30.5 
 
 8.5 
 
 30.1 
 
 29.7 
 
 - 0.4 
 
 -30 
 
 13.2 
 
 18,8 
 
 5,6 
 
 15,5 
 
 13,9 
 
 -1,6 
 
 -35 
 
 6,5 
 
 11,1 
 
 4.6 
 
 7,2 
 
 7,1 
 
 -0,1 
 
 -40 
 
 3.6 
 
 7,9 
 
 4,3 
 
 4,2 
 
 4,4 
 
 0,2 
 
 -45 
 
 2,3 
 
 5,8 
 
 3,5 
 
 2,6 
 
 2,9 
 
 0.3 
 
 -50 
 
 1,5 
 
 ■t,4 
 
 2.9 
 
 1,8 
 
 2,3 
 
 0,6 
 
 -55 
 
 1,2 
 
 3,3 
 
 2.1 
 
 1.2 
 
 1,5 
 
 0,3 
 
 1 5-35 
 
 fi8,fi 
 
 95,1 
 
 26,3 
 
 95,6 
 
 93,6 
 
 - 2,0 
 
 35-55 
 
 8,6 
 
 21,4 
 
 12,8 
 
 9,8 
 
 11.1 
 
 1,3 
 
 The difference in social status between these two 
 groups is not so great as between Group I, and 
 Group III. of the London boroughs, but the same 
 tendency of the segregation of the surplus mi married 
 women into the better parts is manifest. In spite of 
 the considerable extension of women labour in fat^^tories 
 of recent years and the consequent scarcity of domestic 
 
 1 4
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : —PAPERS LAID BEFORK THE COMMISSION: 
 
 servants, there is an actual deficiency of unmai-ried 
 women (compared with men of the same age) in those 
 places from which the female factory workers are 
 drawn. 
 
 The tigures pu'ilished by the census authorities do 
 not permit us to ascertain the extent to which there is an 
 excess of immarried females in all the seaside and other 
 health resorts. Details ai-e known, however, for seven of 
 these places — Brighton, Eastbourne, Hastings, Bom-ne- 
 mouth, Bath. Southport. and Blackpool — and these 
 admit of the following summaiy (in thousands) : — 
 
 15- 
 
 20- 1 25- 
 
 30- 
 
 35- 
 
 40- 
 
 45- 
 
 50- 
 
 30- 
 
 3.V 
 
 - ,20. 
 
 25. ' 30. 
 
 1 
 
 35. 
 
 40. 
 
 45. 
 
 50. 
 
 55. 
 
 35. 1 
 
 55.- 
 
 Men - 
 
 17,8 
 
 14,0 
 
 8,1 
 
 4,4 
 
 2,4 
 
 2,0 
 
 14 
 
 10 
 
 443 
 
 68 
 
 Wo- 
 
 25,0 
 
 23,0 
 
 i5;j 
 
 10.1 
 
 8,1 
 
 6.4 
 
 54 
 
 44 
 
 734 
 
 243 
 
 men 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 , 
 
 
 Excess 
 
 7,2 
 
 9,0 
 
 7^ 
 
 5,r 
 
 5.V 
 
 4,4 
 
 4,0 
 
 3,4 
 
 29,1 
 
 17,5 
 
 of Wo- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 men - 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 The siu-plus of uuman-ied women between 15 and 35 
 in the seven towns amounted to over 29,000. 
 
 Enough examples have been given to show that the 
 surplus female population of England and Wales is not 
 of the sort which can be readily emigrated withgenei'al 
 advantage. It may be useful, however, in this connection 
 to show the number of immarried males and unmarried 
 females between 15 and 35 in each county or division 
 of comity for which figures are available*, and this has 
 been done in Table XII. for the aggregate of the metro- 
 politan and county boroughs, the remaining ui'ban 
 districts, and the nu-al districts in each di%'ision or 
 county. The compilation of the table has been done 
 thi'oughout to the neai-est hundi-ed, but the figures 
 
 shown arc quite accui-ate enough for all pi-actical 
 piu'poses. It will l>e noticed that as regards i-ural 
 districts only in the counties of Middlesex, Surrey, and 
 Westmoreland ai'e the females in excess. Besides the 
 metropolitan districts, the urban localities in which the 
 surplus of females is most marked are in Lauca.shire. 
 the West Riding of Yorkshire (in Ixith of which there 
 is much well-paid female labour), and in Gloucestershii-e. 
 A siu'plus of males in urban districts is prominent in 
 the mining coimties of Durham and Glamorgan and in 
 Hampshire and Staffordshire. 
 
 (22) Before discussing in detail certain mortality 
 figures there is one other aspect of the birth-rate pro- 
 blem which may be referred to. This concerns the 
 relative fertility of the native and immigrant popu- 
 lations living in the Colonies. The only available data 
 upon this are derived from the Annual Reports on 
 " Population and Yital Statistics " of the Australian 
 Commonwealth. To avoid possible errors it is necessary 
 to deal only with the figures for a census year, and 
 those for 1911 have been analysed. In the bulletin 
 of the Commonwealth census of 1911 relating to birth- 
 places of the population, the numliers living in each 
 (juinquennial age period both of males and females are 
 shown according to birthplace. It is desirable to know 
 the actual number of married women instead of the 
 total number of women, but this information has not 
 yet been published. As there may be differences in the 
 proportions of married people according to birthplace, 
 the analysis below can only be considered approximate. 
 Table XIII. shows the number of men and of women 
 between certain age limits according to birthplace at 
 the Australian census of 1911. the total number of 
 births to each group in 1911, and the corresponding 
 birth-rates. 
 
 For convenience of inspection the table has been 
 condensed to the following form ; — 
 
 Birthplace. 
 
 Number 
 
 of 
 
 Women, 
 
 1 5-4.1. 
 
 Number 
 
 of 
 
 Women, 
 
 20-10. 
 
 Number 
 
 of Births.' Women, 
 
 l.i-45. 
 
 Births pel Births per ,. , v- i. 
 
 lilii lOll Number i Ji umber 
 
 Women, 
 20-40. 
 
 of Men, 
 2U-45. 
 
 of Men, 
 20-55. 
 
 Number "^i"''^, P" "?''"'' »*" 
 loo Men, 10" Men, 
 
 20-45. I 20-5.">. 
 
 of Births. 
 
 United Kingdom 81,784 
 
 i 
 Australasia- - j 936,505 
 Cei-tain Foreign 
 
 Countries - [ 5,205 
 
 58,241 
 
 624,626 
 
 3,762 
 
 9,339 11-4 161 117,699 190,874 14,439 12-2 
 
 110,973 11-9 17-8 714,297 856,569 97,073 13-6 
 
 822' 15-8 1 21-9 13,102 19,036 1,538 117 
 
 1-0 
 
 11-3 
 
 81 
 
 In commenting upon these figures the important 
 restriction that the populations are not those of married 
 men and of married women must be emphasised. But 
 the figures do enable us to say if the peoiple of any 
 particular birthplace produce a proportionally greater 
 number of children. It appears that the Italian and 
 German women in Australia in 1911 had the greatest 
 birth-rate, and the women from the United Kingdom 
 the least. The men of Italy and the United States, 
 however, have quite low birth-rates. Not much 
 stress should be put upon these tables, and they 
 should be repeated when the information concerning 
 the number of married men and of married women is 
 available. 
 
 (23) With regard to the mortality in the various 
 countries certain figures have already been given in 
 Table VI. This shows the crude death rates for a 
 number of decennial periods, and indicates that the rate 
 of loss by death in Australia and New Zealand is con- 
 siderably less, Ixith for males and females, than the 
 corresponding rates of loss in the different parts of the 
 United Kingdom. This is to some extent accounted 
 for by the fact that mortality is chiefly dependent upon 
 age, and that the Colonies have a rather smaller propor- 
 tion of old people than have the countries of the United 
 
 Kingdom. The following figures, relating to the 
 censuses of__1911, refer to this point: — 
 
 Peoportion of Total Population in 
 Age Groups. . 
 
 Country. 
 
 Under 1 5. 
 
 1.5-35. 
 
 35-55. 
 
 55-75 
 
 Over 7."i. 
 
 England and 
 Wales 
 
 •31 
 
 •34 
 
 ■23 
 
 ■10 
 
 ■02 
 
 Scotland 
 
 •32 
 
 •34 
 
 •22 
 
 ■10 
 
 ■02 
 
 Ireland 
 
 •30 
 
 •32 
 
 •21 
 
 ■14 
 
 ■03 
 
 Australia 
 
 •32 
 
 ■36 
 
 •23 
 
 •08 
 
 ■01 
 
 New Zealand - 
 
 ■31 
 
 •38 
 
 •21 
 
 •09 
 
 ■01 
 
 * All the counties in South Wales, other than Crlamorgaii- 
 shire. have been grouped together, and likewise all the connt.cs 
 in North Wales. 
 
 The only point in connection with mortality which 
 has been investigated in detail is that of the relative 
 death rates of the native and immigrant populations in 
 Australia. The fact that the native population in the 
 New England States of America (viz.. Maine, New 
 Hampshire. Yermont. Massachusetts. Rhode Island, 
 and Connecticut) has a lower mortality than the 
 English, and especially the Irish, immigrants has been
 
 MIGRATION. 
 
 73 
 
 commented upon by those dealing with mortality 
 figures, and the volumes of Australian vital statistics 
 enable light to be thrown upon the experience of the 
 Commonwealth in this respect. The problem is not a 
 simple one, since in all mortality investigations it is 
 essential to make allowance for age effects, and the 
 immigrant population in Australia diifers vastly in age 
 distribution from the native population. In order to 
 have the fullest possible information on the question it 
 is necessary to consider the mortality only for a census 
 year, and 1911 is the only one for which the figures are 
 available. 
 
 The manner in which an adequate comparison of the 
 mortality of the Australian natives and the immigrants 
 can be effected is as follows : — 
 
 Taking the death-rate of the population of the whole 
 of the Commonwealth aged 15-19, and multiplying by 
 the number of people between those ages in Australia who 
 were born in the United Kingdom will give the numljer 
 of deaths (t?,) which would have occurred in that immi- 
 grant group if they had suffered the same rate of mortality 
 as did the whole population of the Commonwealth. If 
 
 the actual number of deaths (D,) among the immigrants 
 aged 15-19 from the United Kingdom were appreciably 
 greater than (d,), we could argue that the particular 
 immigrant poiJulation suffered from a heavier mortality 
 than the native population. A similar process can be 
 applied to the age-groups 20-24, 25-29, and 30-34, and 
 numters d.,, d-,, and d^ obtained to indicate the deaths 
 which would have occurred if the immigrants in those 
 age-periods had suffered the general mortality, instead 
 of their actual mortality which gave rise to deaths 
 numbering Dj, D.„ and T), in the three groups respec- 
 tively. Then if the sum Di + Do-l-Dj-t-Dj is appreciably 
 greater than d^ + d.y + d^ + d^ it would be inferred that 
 the immigrant population 15-35 had a heavier death 
 rate than the corresponding native group. Table XIV. 
 shows the actual number of deaths and also the number 
 which would have occurred on the basis of the standard 
 experience of the whole Commonwealth for the age- 
 groups 15-34 and 35-64 for the men and women bom 
 in the stated countries and Colonies. 
 
 Grouping the figures in this table we derive the 
 following general outline ; — 
 
 
 1 5-34. 
 
 35-64. 
 
 Birthplace. 
 
 Actual • 
 
 Number of Deaths which 
 
 
 Actual 
 
 Number of Deaths which 
 
 
 
 Number 
 
 would have occurred if the 
 
 Index of 
 
 Number 
 
 would have occurred if the 
 
 Index iif 
 
 
 of 
 
 Mortality of the Standard 
 
 Mortality. 
 
 of 
 
 Mortalitv of the Standard 
 
 Mortality. 
 
 
 Deaths, 
 
 Population applied. 
 
 
 Deaths. 
 
 Population applied. 
 
 
 
 
 MALES. 
 
 
 
 
 United Kingdom 
 
 392 
 
 303 
 
 129 
 
 3,166 
 
 2,972 
 
 107 
 
 Australasia 
 
 2,467 
 
 2,683 
 
 92 
 
 4,023 
 
 4,621 
 
 87 
 
 Germany, Italy, & 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 United States - 
 
 35 
 
 36 
 
 97 
 
 1 239 
 
 256 
 
 93 
 
 
 
 FEMALES. 
 
 
 
 
 United Kingdom 
 
 179 
 
 178 
 
 101 
 
 1,715 
 
 1,597 
 
 107 
 
 Australasia 
 
 2,bll 
 
 2,570 
 
 102 
 
 3,321 
 
 3,380 
 
 98 
 
 Germany, Italy, & 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 United States - 
 
 8 
 
 11 
 
 73 
 
 73 
 
 94 
 
 78 
 
 One difiiculty in the interpretation of these figures lies 
 in the fact that there were in the whole Commonwealth 
 56 and 328 deaths respectively in the two age groups 
 for males and 21 and 66 in the corresponding groups 
 for females in which the birthplace was unspecified. 
 But as we are going to use the figures solely to point 
 out the higher mortality of the immigrants from the 
 United Kingdom we are on the right side, since the 
 inclusion of these deaths of unspecified birthplace 
 would increase the figures in the column showing 
 " actual number of deaths," and thus raise the index. 
 
 The figures on which the index for the United 
 Kingdom is based are sufficiently large to assert defi- 
 nitely that the mortality of male immigrants, particu- 
 larly between 15 and 34, from Great Britain and Ireland 
 is greater than that of the native males. In the case 
 
 of the females no definite difference can be demonstrated 
 for the younger group, and comparatively little for the 
 other group. There are, of course, other factors — 
 occupation, geographical situation, etc. — to be con- 
 sidered in the complete investigation of this problem, and 
 unless these are approximately the same for the immi- 
 grant and native populations some differences in the 
 indices would be anticipated. The possibility, too, that 
 the emigrants from the United Kingdom to Australia 
 have included a number of weak people moving for 
 health reasons must also be borne in mind. C 
 
 We cannot state exactly the mortality of thci home 
 population from which the emigrants are drawn, but 
 the following figures show the mortality in 1911 of 
 certain portions of the population of England and Wa'( s 
 compared with that of Australia :• — 
 
 Age 
 Group. 
 
 Ac 
 
 ual Number of Deaths. 
 
 Number of Deaths which would have 
 occurred if the Mortality of the Common- 
 wealth at individual Age Groups applied. 
 
 
 Mortalit 
 
 V Index 
 
 
 All 
 England 
 and 1 
 Wales. 1 
 
 Urban 
 Districts. 
 
 Rural 
 Districts. 
 
 London. 
 
 All 
 
 Eugland 
 
 and 
 
 Wales. 
 
 Drban 
 
 Districts. 
 
 Kural 
 
 Districts. 
 
 London. 
 
 All 
 Eng- 
 land 
 and 
 Wales. 
 
 Urban 
 Dis- 
 tricts. 
 
 Rural ' 
 Dis- 
 trict. 
 
 Lontlon. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 MALES. 
 
 
 
 
 
 15-34 
 34-65 
 
 24,967 
 76,212 
 
 20,261 
 63,090 
 
 4,706 
 13,122 
 
 3,148 
 11,202 
 
 ' 23,198 
 67,919 
 
 18,265 
 51,823 
 
 4,933 
 16,096 
 
 2,921 
 8,430 
 
 108 
 112 
 
 Ill 
 122 
 
 96 
 82 
 
 108 
 133 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 FEMALES. 
 
 
 
 
 
 15-34 
 35-64 
 
 23,774 
 
 54,812 
 
 19.202 
 42,616 
 
 4,572 
 12,196 
 
 3,263 
 7,107 
 
 22 922 
 65!477 
 
 18,436 
 53,773 
 
 4,486 
 11,704 
 
 2,784 
 9,038 
 
 97 
 
 120 
 
 96 
 126 
 
 98 
 96 
 
 85 
 127 
 
 E 208:;u 
 
 K
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAI. COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION 
 
 It is difficult to draw any definite conclusions from 
 a comparison of these figures with those in Table XIT., 
 since, among other reasons, we are not able to assume 
 that the emigrants from Euijland and Wales to Aus- 
 tralia are a random sample from any one of the four 
 populations above. The indices suggest that the males 
 between 15 and 35, in Australia, of English and Welsh 
 origin have a higher death rate than the corresponding 
 male group here, but the difficulties in the way of an 
 adequate comparison of the figures are too many to 
 permit much weight being given to this conclusion. 
 
 (24) The question of the heavier mortality of the 
 immigrant than the native population in Australia can 
 be looked at from another point of view. The volumes 
 of " Commonwealth Vital Statistics" state the number 
 of deaths in quinquennial age groups according to 
 length of residence in Australia. From this informa- 
 tion Table XV. has laeen constnicted on a similar 
 basis to Table XIV. — the condensed arrangement 
 of the figures showing also the indices of mortality 
 accordins to certain periods of length of residence. 
 
 The most definite conclusions which can be drawn 
 from the indices are : (1) the mortality of the male immi- 
 grants between 15 and 34 is considerably greater in the 
 first five years of residence than that of the native popu- 
 lation between those ^es ; (2) the mortality of the male 
 immigrants between 35 and 64 and of over 20 years' 
 residence is rather less than that of the native popula- 
 tion between those limits of age. No definite difference 
 can be asserted on the basis of the figures shown to exist 
 between the mortality of the native and the immigrant 
 females. The evidence is not inconsistent with the 
 hypothesis that there is a weeding out of the weakly 
 from the male immigrants in their early years in 
 Australia, and that in subsequent years they suffer 
 from a lower mortality than the native Australians. 
 
 (25) We have now discussed a number of the factors 
 which may be expected to affect the future population 
 of the countries considered, and in this paragraph 
 the results of an attempt to make estimates of those 
 future populations are given. No certainty whatever 
 attaches to the estimates made to predict future 
 populations. All that can be done is to employ, for 
 purposes of calculation the experience of the past. If 
 this experience continues in the future the prediction 
 
 will be approximately correct, and the likelihood of this 
 occurring is roughly proportional to the magnitude of 
 the populations dealt with. More weight is to be attached 
 to the estimates made for the whole of the Empire, and 
 for England and Wales, than for the sparsely populated 
 country of New Zealand. After some preliminary 
 investigation it was decided to make estimates not by 
 considering in detail the courses of the birth, death, 
 and migration rates for each country, but chiefly 
 from the consideration of the total rates of increase 
 in each case. This is made the more necessary by 
 the desirability of dealing with children and adults 
 separately. 
 
 The rates of increase of the male and female popu- 
 lations in each covmtry. both under and over 15, have 
 been considered in detail in paragraphs 17 and 18 and 
 Tables IV. and VI. By studying these rates of increase 
 and considering the tendencies of the other factors 
 affecting population certain maximum and minimum 
 rates of increase which it appears reasonable to assimie 
 for the next 10 years are suggested. Thus inspection of 
 the figures for England and Wales in Table IV.. and 
 general consideration on the fall in the birth and death- 
 i-ates and the activity in emigration, suggests that it is 
 not vmreasonable to assume that the male population 
 under 15 will increase in the intercensal period at a rate 
 of between 4 per cent, and 8 per cent, of the mean inter- 
 censal population, and that the corresponding popu- 
 lation over 15 will increase at between 10 per cent, and 
 14 per cent. The proper rate of increase to assume can 
 be a matter of opinion only, and arguments can. no 
 doubt, be brought against the assumption of any par- 
 ticular figure. But no other method is warranted, and 
 a verification is possible by ascertaining if the sum of 
 the estimates made for the sub-populations is not incon- 
 gruous with the estimate obtained on the assumption 
 of a reasonable rate of increase for the whole population. 
 A further test can be made by inquiring if the sum of the 
 figures found for the individual countries is consistent 
 with that found on a similar basis for the aggregate of 
 the countries. The rate of increase of the population of 
 the aggregate of the countries, as pointed out in para- 
 graph 18. fluctuated but little in the 40 years from 1871. 
 
 Condensing this table the following figures are 
 obtained : — 
 
 Length 
 of Residence. 
 
 MALES. 
 
 15-34. 
 
 Deaths 
 Actual on ba^is 
 Nnm- of 
 
 bar of Standard 
 Deaths. Popn' 
 
 lation 
 
 Index. 
 
 35-64. 
 
 Actual 
 Num- 
 
 Deaths | 
 on basis 
 of 
 
 FEMALES. 
 
 15-.'J4. 
 
 35-64. 
 
 ber of Standard 
 Deaths. | Popu- 
 I lation. ' 
 
 Index. 
 
 I Deaths 
 Actual I on basis i 
 Num- of 
 
 ber of Standard 
 Deaths.! Popn- 
 
 I lation. ' 
 
 Index. 
 
 Deaths 
 Actual on basis { 
 Num- of i ,„ j„^ 
 ber of Standard' ^°"^^- 
 Deaths. Popu- 
 lation. 
 
 Less than 5 vears - 362 | 227 , 159 176 172 
 
 Between 5 & 10 years 67: 45 : 149 71 66 
 
 ., 10 & 20 years 67 j 67 , 100 304 282 
 
 Over 20 years - - 86 105 , 82 2,972 3,228 
 
 All immigrants - 582 444 131 3,523 3,748 
 
 102 
 
 89 
 
 76 
 
 117 66 
 
 ,., ' 
 
 108 
 
 18 
 
 17 
 
 106 39 
 
 28 
 
 108 
 
 27 
 
 36 
 
 75 97 
 
 103 
 
 92 
 
 80 
 
 101 
 
 79 1,625 
 
 1,5.37 
 
 94 
 
 214 
 
 230 
 
 93 1,827 
 
 1.741 
 
 90 
 139 
 
 94 
 106 
 105 
 
 The limiting rates of increase which have been assumed 
 for the various populations are shown in Table XVI. 
 
 It may again be emphasised that these figures are 
 put forward as rough approximations only. The most 
 likely criticism appears to be that in the case of the 
 Colonies the maximum rate of increase assumed is too 
 low. Such an opinion, however, is probably affected 
 by the great activity in immigration to the Colonies of 
 
 recent years, and the assumption that this is going to 
 continue with unaljated force. There is little evidence 
 for this view, and the fact that migration occurg chiefly 
 in times of prosperity suggests that long before the 
 census of 1921 the figures of migration will have 
 reached a lower level. The populations which wiU then 
 lie attained if the rates of increase shown in Table XVI. 
 hold are given in Table XVII. 
 
 Applying the rates of increase referred to in Table XVI. for the aggregate of the countries, the figures for 
 
 1921 are :— 
 
 Males 
 Females 
 
 Lower Limit. 
 Thousands. 
 31,616 
 32,352 
 
 Upper Limit. 
 
 Thousands. 
 
 32,898 
 
 33,664 
 
 Total 
 
 63,968 
 
 66,562
 
 MIGEATION, 
 
 /y 
 
 The agreement between the figures is quite good for 
 the lower limit, but not so good for the ujjper. But 
 the assumption in this work which has the greatest 
 probability is that the rate of increase of the popula- 
 tion of the aggregate of the countries is not likely to 
 exceed 14 per cent, of the meau population. The figures 
 given by the upper limits for the individual groups are 
 therefore, on the whole, extreme values, and better 
 estimates for rough general pui-poses are probably given 
 by the lower limits. ' 
 
 (26) On the assumption that the same rates of 
 progression hold between 1921 and 1931, calculations 
 have also been made of the various populations 
 in the latter year. These are probably of very little 
 value, as any attempt at estimating population for 
 a date 20 years ahead has little scientific justification. 
 
 Table XVIII. indicates the pojjulations in 19:j1 on the 
 very improbable assumption that the rates of increase 
 shown in Table XVI. will hold both Ijetween 1!>11 and 
 1921 and also 1921 and 1931. As before, two limiting 
 values are given in each case, and these are necessarily 
 wider apart than are the corresp)onding ones for 1921. 
 
 The result of assuming a larger rate of increase for 
 females than for males in the case of Australia (justified 
 by past experience) is to make the estimates of the 
 number of males and females in the Commonwealth in 
 1931 more nearly equal. 
 
 Applying the rates of increase referred to in 
 Table XVI. for the aggregate of the countries the 
 figures for 1931 are : — 
 
 Lower Limit. Upper Limit. 
 Thousands. Thousands. 
 Males - - - 34,936 37,826 
 
 Females - - 35,749 38,707 
 
 Total 
 
 70,685 76,533 
 
 Again the agreement is quite good for the lower 
 limit, but the discrepancy tetween the values found at 
 the maximvini rate of increase is large. As stated 
 before, no stress can Iw laid on any particular esti- 
 mate of population 20 years ahead, and the figures in 
 the tables merely show what numbers will be reached 
 by increasing the census figures of 1911 at certain 
 rates. 
 
 TABLE I. 
 
 MiGEATION PEOM AND EXTERNAL TeaDE OP THE UNITED KINGDOM, 1876-1911. 
 
 
 Excess of Outward over Inward 
 
 Passenger Movement (British 
 
 Nationality) to 
 
 Exports of British and Irish 
 Produce to 
 
 Total Imports (exclusive ot Bullion and Specie) 
 from 
 
 Year. 
 
 i 
 
 ■^■°i 
 
 M S 
 
 CO 
 
 1 
 
 ■S'^" 
 
 ■s« 
 
 "■3.2 
 
 K 
 
 S 
 
 «^i 
 
 1 "i 
 
 ■SS 
 
 S.2 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 o 
 o 
 
 1 
 
 lite 
 
 5^4 
 
 ss 
 
 S 1 
 
 5| 
 
 3| 
 
 o 
 o 
 
 a 
 
 1 = 2 
 
 
 5iS 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 In tho 
 
 u sands. 
 
 T„ 
 
 millions of 
 
 pounds. 
 
 
 In millions of pounds. 
 
 1876 
 
 29,6 
 
 2,7 
 
 ,1 
 
 38,1 
 
 17,68 
 
 7,36 
 
 16,83 
 
 64,86 
 
 200,64 
 
 21,96 
 
 11,02 
 
 75,90 
 
 84,33 
 
 375,15 
 
 7 
 
 25.5 
 
 2,0 
 
 ,6 
 
 31,3 
 
 19,29 
 
 7,61 
 
 16,38 
 
 69,92 
 
 198,89 
 
 21,73 
 
 12,04 
 
 77,83 
 
 89,55 
 
 394,42 
 
 8 
 
 32,3 
 
 4,4 
 
 20,7 
 
 58,0 
 
 19,57 
 
 6,44 
 
 14,55 
 
 66,24 
 
 192,85 
 
 20,86 
 
 9,53 
 
 89,15 
 
 77,94 
 
 368,77 
 
 9 
 
 36,0 
 
 14,5 
 
 71,8 
 
 126,3 
 
 16,27 
 
 5,45 
 
 20,32 
 
 61,00 
 
 191,53 
 
 21,96 
 
 10,45 
 
 91,82 
 
 78,94 
 
 362,99 
 
 1880 
 
 18,3 
 
 16,2 
 
 140,1 
 
 180,5 
 
 16,93 
 
 7,71 
 
 30,86 
 
 75,25 
 
 223,06 
 
 25.66 
 
 13,39 
 
 107,08 
 
 92,52 
 
 411,23 
 
 1 
 
 16,8 
 
 18,2 
 
 146,3 
 
 190,3 21,38 
 
 8,41 
 
 29,80 
 
 79,36 
 
 234,02 
 
 26,98 
 
 11,30 
 
 103,21 
 
 91,54 
 
 397,02 
 
 2 
 
 30,4 
 
 34,3 
 
 153,4 
 
 224,7 
 
 25,37 
 
 9,70 
 
 30,97 
 
 84,83 
 
 241,47 
 
 25,17 
 
 10,40 
 
 88,35 
 
 99,43 
 
 413,02 
 
 3 
 
 64,4 
 
 37,2 
 
 144,9 
 
 246.3 
 
 24,22 
 
 9,16 
 
 27,37 
 
 83,48 
 
 239,80 
 
 25,94 
 
 12,28 
 
 99,24 
 
 98,68 
 
 426,89 
 
 4 
 
 35,9 
 
 22,3 
 
 93,8 
 
 150,8 
 
 23,90 
 
 8,65 
 
 24.43 
 
 80,88 
 
 233,03 
 
 28,31 
 
 11,04 
 
 86,28 
 
 95,81 
 
 390,02 
 
 5 
 
 31,4 
 
 10,5 
 
 80,1 
 
 122,2 
 
 25,17 
 
 7,21 
 
 21,99 
 
 77,93 
 
 213,04 
 
 23,33 
 
 10,35 
 
 86,48 
 
 84,40 
 
 370,97 
 
 6 
 
 34,1 
 
 17,6 
 
 99,8 
 
 152.9 
 
 22,40 
 
 7,89 
 
 26,82 
 
 75,51 
 
 212,43 
 
 20,95 
 
 10,42 
 
 81,60 
 
 81,88 
 
 349,86 
 
 7 
 
 23,9 
 
 25,2 
 
 143,2 
 
 196,0 
 
 19,77 
 
 8,11 
 
 29,55 
 
 75,14 
 
 221,41 
 
 23,34 
 
 10,56 
 
 83,05 
 
 83,80 
 
 362,23 
 
 8 
 
 20,7 
 
 26,0 
 
 132,0 
 
 185,8 
 
 25,48 
 
 7.57 
 
 28,90 
 
 83,94 
 
 233,84 
 
 25,86 
 
 9,27 
 
 79,76 
 
 86,92 
 
 387,64 
 
 9 
 
 17,9 
 
 19,6 
 
 97,4 
 
 150,7 
 
 22,88 
 
 8,14 
 
 30,29 
 
 83,28 
 
 248,94 
 
 26,80 
 
 12,19 
 
 95,46 
 
 97,27 
 
 427,64 
 
 1890 
 
 11,0 
 
 13,0 
 
 77,7 
 
 108.6 
 
 23,01 
 
 7,23 
 
 32,07 
 
 87,37 
 
 263,53 
 
 29,35 
 
 12,44 
 
 97,28 
 
 96,16 
 
 420,69 
 
 1 
 
 9,8 
 
 12,6 
 
 87,6 
 
 115,5 
 
 25,50 
 
 7,25 
 
 27,54 
 
 85,96 
 
 247,24 
 
 31,26 
 
 12,61 
 
 104,41 
 
 99,46 
 
 435,44 
 
 2 
 
 5,3 
 
 13,9 
 
 87,3 
 
 112,3 
 
 19,29 
 
 7,43 
 
 26,55 
 
 74,75 
 
 227 22 
 
 30,54 
 
 14,57 
 
 108,19 
 
 97,77 
 
 423,79 
 
 3 
 
 1,0 
 
 15,6 
 
 81,5 
 
 106,7 
 
 15,09 
 
 7,20 
 
 23,96 
 
 72,15 
 
 218',26 
 
 29,87 
 
 13,34 
 
 91,78 
 
 91,77 
 
 404,69 
 
 4 
 
 1,8 
 
 7,2 
 
 20,5 
 
 37,7 
 
 16,04 
 
 6,31 
 
 18,80 
 
 72,85 
 
 216,01 
 
 31,86 
 
 12,91 
 
 89,61 
 
 94,00 
 
 408,34 
 
 5 
 
 1.0 
 
 6,0 
 
 55,4 
 
 75,8 
 
 17,34 
 
 5,54 
 
 27,95 
 
 70.26 
 
 226,13 
 
 33,36 
 
 13,40 
 
 86,55 
 
 95,65 
 
 416,69 
 
 6 
 
 1,0 
 
 5,7 
 
 39,7 
 
 60,2 
 
 21,89 
 
 5,76 
 
 20,42 
 
 84,19 
 
 240,15 
 
 29,40 
 
 16,44 
 
 106,35 
 
 93,29 
 
 441,81 
 
 7 
 
 4,6 
 
 5,6 
 
 31,7 
 
 51,2 
 
 21,28 
 
 5.48 
 
 20,99 
 
 80,76 
 
 234,22 
 
 29,35 
 
 19,54 
 
 113,04 
 
 94,13 
 
 451,03 
 
 8 
 
 3,6 
 
 7,8 
 
 29,8 
 
 49,4 
 
 21,11 
 
 6,15 
 
 14,72 
 
 83,50 
 
 233,36 
 
 28,85 
 
 20,75 
 
 126,06 
 
 99,76 
 
 470.54 
 
 9 
 
 3,9 
 
 8,0 
 
 38,8 
 
 46,1 
 
 22,.50 
 
 7,35 
 
 18.12 
 
 87,67 
 
 264,49 
 
 33,32 
 
 20,73 
 
 120,08 
 
 106,90 
 
 485,04 
 
 1900 
 
 6,3 
 
 7,8 
 
 48,0 
 
 71,2 
 
 27,06 
 
 8,13 
 
 19,78 
 
 94,43 
 
 291,19 
 
 35,41 
 
 22,24 
 
 138,79 
 
 109,64 
 
 523,07 
 
 1 
 
 6,6 
 
 7,1 
 
 45,9 
 
 72,0 
 
 26,95 
 
 8,14 
 
 18,39 
 
 104,87 
 
 280,02 
 
 34,81 
 
 2o!39 
 
 141,02 
 
 105,68 
 
 521,99 
 
 2 
 
 4,4 
 
 14,7 
 
 51,6 
 
 101,5 
 
 25,21 
 
 10,72 
 
 23.76 
 
 109,09 
 
 283,42 
 
 30,62 
 
 23,61 
 
 126,96 
 
 106,92 
 
 528,39 
 
 3 
 
 3,7 
 
 45,9 
 
 65,4 
 
 147,0 
 
 22,51 
 
 11,50 
 
 22,61 
 
 111,15 
 
 290,80 
 
 30,51 
 
 27,28 
 
 122,11 
 
 113,67 
 
 542,60 
 
 4 
 
 5,2 
 
 51,3 
 
 66,8 
 
 126,9 
 
 23,65 
 
 11,11 
 
 20,20 
 
 111,94 
 
 300,71 
 
 36,31 
 
 23,14 
 
 119,23 
 
 120,02 
 
 551,04 
 
 5 
 
 7,3 
 
 62,5 
 
 61,0 
 
 139,4 
 
 23,42 
 
 12,34 
 
 23.92 
 
 113,44 
 
 329.82 
 
 40,36 
 
 26,20 
 
 115,.57 
 
 127,87 
 
 565,02 
 
 6 
 
 9,9 
 
 91,3 
 
 85,9 
 
 194.7 
 
 27,63 
 
 14,20 
 
 27,76 
 
 121,34 
 
 375,58 
 
 44,74 
 
 30,95 
 
 131,10 
 
 142,17 
 
 607,89 
 
 7 1 13,9 
 
 117,5 
 
 99,9 
 
 235,1 
 
 32,80 
 
 17,55 
 
 30,92 
 
 137,34 
 
 426,04 
 
 51,62 
 
 28,36 
 
 133,68 
 
 157,14 
 
 645.81 
 
 8 ' 20,4 
 
 41,5 
 
 31,5 
 
 91,2 
 
 31,71 
 
 12,68 
 
 21,30 
 
 125,75 
 
 377,10 
 
 43,74 
 
 26,62 
 
 124,16 
 
 129,83 
 
 592,95 
 
 9 ! 25,2 
 
 52,4 
 
 56,4 
 
 139,7 
 
 31,35 
 
 16,30 
 
 29,76 
 
 125,78 
 
 378,18 
 
 50,38 
 
 27,07 
 
 118,27 
 
 146,91 
 
 624,70 
 
 1910 
 
 32,7 
 
 115,7 
 
 73,6 
 
 233,7 
 
 36,30 
 
 20,61 
 
 31,45 
 
 145,45 
 
 430,38 
 
 59,52 
 
 26,97 
 
 119,97 
 
 170,64 
 
 678,26 
 
 1911 
 
 65,8 
 
 134,8 
 
 49,7 
 
 261,8 
 
 40,69 
 
 20,31 
 
 27.52 
 
 156,73 
 
 454,12 
 
 56,95 
 
 26,14 
 
 124,44 
 
 171,45 
 
 680,16 
 
 K 2
 
 76 
 
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 )iimiti,tiiiiMimimmmiifmiiutM^mm 
 
 TABLE m. 
 Proportion of To'Tal Poi-uLATiosf truD«E IS. 
 
 Year. 
 
 England and 
 Wales. 
 
 Scotland. 
 
 Ireland, 
 
 Auatraliai 
 
 iJew 
 Zealand. 
 
 Canada. 
 
 Total 
 
 1861 
 1871 
 1881 
 1891 
 1901 
 1911 
 
 
 
 MALES. 
 
 
 
 
 36-7 
 
 34-5 
 
 341 
 
 31-4 
 
 ^ 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 37-0 
 
 39-1 
 
 36-9 
 
 38-8 
 
 34-0 
 
 39-3 
 
 37-6 
 
 37-5 
 
 38-4 
 
 .36-4 
 
 36-4 
 
 38-9 
 
 38-4 
 
 37-3 
 
 360 
 
 37-4 
 
 33-5 
 
 .34-8 
 
 37-8 
 
 35-9 
 
 35-7 
 
 33-5 
 
 34-8 
 
 31-2 
 
 33-9 
 
 32-3 
 
 35-4 
 
 33-4 
 
 31-8 
 
 33-4 
 
 30-1 
 
 30-8 
 
 30 1 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 FEMALES. 
 
 
 
 
 1861 - 
 
 34-6 
 
 30-6 
 
 31 -.5 
 
 43'0 
 
 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 1871 - 
 
 35-2 
 
 34-5 
 
 340 
 
 46-0 
 
 47-2 
 
 39-1 i 
 
 35-8 
 
 1881 - 
 
 35-6 
 
 34-7 
 
 33-8 
 
 41-9 
 
 46-8 
 
 37-9 j 
 
 3.5-8 
 
 1891 - 
 
 34-2 
 
 33-9 
 
 31-4 
 
 39-4 
 
 42-2 
 
 36-7 ! 
 
 34-3 
 
 1901 - 
 
 31-4 
 
 321 
 
 29-5 
 
 36-5 
 
 34-6 
 
 36-2 
 
 320 
 
 1911 - 
 
 29-6 
 
 31-2 
 
 291 
 
 32-4 
 
 325 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 TABLE IV. 
 Peecbntaqe Increase op Population in Intercensal Periods. 
 
 Year. 
 
 England and 
 Wales. 
 
 Scotland. 
 
 Ireland. 
 
 Australia. 
 
 New 
 Zealand. 
 
 Canada. 
 
 Total. 
 
 Under 
 15. 
 
 Over 
 15. 
 
 Under 
 1.5. 
 
 Over 
 1.5. 
 
 Under 
 15. 
 
 Over 
 15. 
 
 Under 
 15. 
 
 Over 
 1.5. 
 
 Under 
 15. 
 
 Over 
 15. 
 
 Under 
 15. 
 
 Over 
 15. 
 
 Under 
 1.5. 
 
 Over 
 15. 
 
 1861-71 
 1871-81 
 1881-91 
 1891-01 
 1901-11 
 
 MALES. 
 
 14-5 
 
 12-3 
 
 25-0 
 
 2-9 
 
 6-5 
 
 -10-8 
 
 68-1 
 
 211 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 151 
 
 13-8 
 
 10-7 
 
 13-2 
 
 -5-2 
 
 -3-4 
 
 25-2 
 
 390 
 
 106.0 
 
 66-7 
 
 14-3 
 
 18-6 
 
 12-9 
 
 7-3 
 
 13-6 
 
 4-9 
 
 9-9 
 
 -15-6 
 
 -4-4 
 
 34-2 
 
 43-7 
 
 200 
 
 25-5 
 
 51 
 
 16-9 
 
 5-8 
 
 3-8 
 
 16-4 
 
 41 
 
 16-5 
 
 -11-7 
 
 -1-8 
 
 12-8 
 
 17-8 
 
 4-0 
 
 32-8 
 
 10-3 
 
 12-7 
 
 3-7 1 
 
 51 
 
 13-8 
 
 2-2 
 
 8-0 
 
 -3-9 
 
 1-3 
 
 6-6 
 
 22-2 
 
 2'^'1 
 
 35-3 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 FEMALES. 
 
 13-4 
 13-4 
 14-4 
 
 1861-71 
 
 14-9 
 
 12-3 
 
 231 
 
 2-8 
 
 0-9 
 
 -9-7 
 
 671 
 
 47-6 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1871-81 
 
 15-8 
 
 13-7 
 
 11-0 
 
 9-7 
 
 -5-3 
 
 -4-4 
 
 25-4 
 
 48-0 
 
 106-0 
 
 109-0 
 
 14-2 
 
 19-8 
 
 13-4 
 
 12-8 
 
 1881-91 
 
 7-6 
 
 14-5 
 
 4-7 
 
 9-1 
 
 -15-8 
 
 -6-6 
 
 33-6 
 
 48-1 
 
 20-4 
 
 45-3| 
 
 5-6 
 
 14-4 
 
 6-0 
 
 13-1 
 
 1891-01 
 
 3-5 
 
 170 
 
 4-7 
 
 13-2 
 
 -11-3 
 
 -2-6 
 
 12-9 
 
 28-2 
 
 2-4 
 
 41-2 
 
 11-0 
 
 10-1 
 
 3-7 
 
 14-8 
 
 1901-11 
 
 4-5 
 
 13-8 
 
 3-3 
 
 8-0 
 
 -3-9 
 
 -2-2 
 
 60 
 
 26-9 
 
 22-0 
 
 34-2 
 
 — 
 
 . — 
 
 — ■ 
 
 
 
 TABLE V. 
 Births, Deaths, and Next Immigration in stated Countries in Decennial Periods 
 
 FROM 1861. (In Thousands.) 
 
 
 England 
 and Wales. 
 
 Scotland. 
 
 Ireland. 
 
 Australia. 
 
 Nbw Zealand. 
 
 Total. 
 
 Period. 
 
 w 
 
 »' 
 
 .i a 
 
 . 
 
 a' 
 
 .i 
 
 o5 
 
 EC 
 
 .^^ G 
 
 D 
 
 •£ 
 
 ^. o 
 
 »• 
 
 cS 
 
 ■~ 9 
 
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 oj 
 
 .i a 
 
 
 js 
 
 
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 J3 
 
 
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 ■a 
 
 
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 .a 
 
 
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 1861-71 - 
 1871-81- 
 1881-91 - 
 1891-11)01 
 19U1-19U 
 
 MALES. 
 
 ,3,827 2,46U 
 
 - 85 
 
 575 
 
 351 
 
 — 71 
 
 — 
 
 — . 
 
 — . 289 
 
 135 
 
 80 
 
 37 
 
 14 
 
 75 1 
 
 14,375 2,679 
 
 —115 
 
 633 
 
 362 
 
 — 75 
 
 720 
 
 485 
 
 —342 354 
 
 177 
 
 124 
 
 76 
 
 26 
 
 78 
 
 |4,527 2,698 
 
 —415 
 
 642 
 
 369 
 
 —130 
 
 592 
 
 438 
 
 —368 485 
 
 241 
 
 244 
 
 97 
 
 34 
 
 11 
 
 14,656 2,865 
 
 —115 
 
 6.56 
 
 389 
 
 - 35 
 
 .542 
 
 412 
 
 —248 534 
 
 265 
 
 15 
 
 95 
 
 40 
 
 18 
 
 ;4,736 i2,706 
 
 -313 
 
 667 
 
 382 
 
 —152 
 
 525 
 
 381 
 
 — 152,j 551 
 
 262 
 
 31 
 
 122 
 
 51 
 
 57 
 
 6,159 3,729 -329 
 
 6,143 3,780 —658 
 
 6,483 3,972 —366 
 
 6,601 3,782 -529 
 
 FEMALES. 
 
 1861-71 - 
 
 3,673 
 
 2,335 
 
 - 25 
 
 546 
 
 355 
 
 — 46 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 1 
 
 275 
 
 94 
 
 87 
 
 36 
 
 9 
 
 39 
 
 — 1 — 
 
 — 
 
 1871-81 - 
 
 4,214 
 
 2,499 
 
 - 34 
 
 599 
 
 382 
 
 — 38 
 
 682 
 
 482 
 
 —331 
 
 339 
 
 125 
 
 68 
 
 72 
 
 18 
 
 58 
 
 5,906 3,506 
 
 —277 
 
 1881-91 - 
 
 4,364 
 
 2,546 
 
 —202 
 
 610 
 
 375 
 
 — 88 
 
 559 
 
 445 
 
 -370] 
 
 462 
 
 169 
 
 139 
 
 93 
 
 25 
 
 9 
 
 6,087 |3,560 
 
 —512 
 
 1H91-19U1 - 
 
 4,497 
 
 2,710 
 
 — 62 
 
 625 
 
 393 
 
 — 17 
 
 513 
 
 424 
 
 —2171 
 
 508 
 
 189 
 
 10 
 
 91 
 
 29 
 
 8 
 
 6,234 3,744 
 
 —278 
 
 1901-1911 - 
 
 4,562 
 
 2,512 
 
 —194 
 
 640 
 
 383 
 
 —104 
 
 498 
 
 386 
 
 —172 
 
 523 
 
 193 
 
 10 
 
 116 
 
 36 
 
 30 
 
 6,3.39 3,540 
 
 —431 
 
 K 3
 
 78 
 
 DOM£KIOKS EOYAl. CUJIil ISSION : — I'AlEliS I AID UEFOKE THE COMMISSION: 
 
 PQ 
 < 
 Eh 
 
 1^ 
 
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 IS 
 
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 S5 
 
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 Mir.UATION. 
 
 79 
 
 TABLE VII. 
 Legitimate Births per 1,000 Married Women, aged 15-4-5. 
 
 Country. 
 
 1861. 
 
 1871. 
 
 1881. 
 
 1891. 
 
 Englaud and Wales 
 
 Scotland 
 
 Ireland - 
 
 Australia 
 
 New South Wales - 
 
 Victoria 
 
 Queensland - 
 
 S. Australia - 
 
 W. Australia 
 
 Tasmania 
 
 New Zealand - 
 
 1901. 
 
 1911. 
 
 281-2 
 
 289-4 
 
 285-6 
 
 269-9 
 
 234-9 
 
 197-0 
 
 317-8 
 
 317-4 
 
 313-1 
 
 300-4 
 
 272-4 
 
 232-0 
 
 
 
 308-9 
 
 283-0 
 
 293-5 
 
 288-3 
 
 295-0 
 
 . 
 
 
 — 
 
 276-0 
 
 237-7 
 
 234-3 
 
 340-8 
 
 331-5 
 
 336-3 
 
 288-7 
 
 235-3 
 
 237-2 
 
 302-2 
 
 298-2 
 
 298-4 
 
 297-7 
 
 228-6 
 
 225-0 
 
 
 
 
 
 316-2 
 
 327-7 
 
 254-0 
 
 246-9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 235-9 
 
 237-5 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 243-9 
 
 224-2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 260-0 
 
 246-4 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 312-2 
 
 275-7 
 
 246-1 
 
 211-8 
 
 TABLE VIII. 
 Number of Births per Marriage in previous Year. 
 
 Country. 
 
 1861. 
 
 1871. 
 
 1881. 
 
 1891. 
 
 1901. 
 
 1906. 
 
 1909. 
 
 1910. 
 
 1911. 
 
 England and Wales 
 
 4-1 
 
 4-4 
 
 4-6 
 
 4-1 
 
 3-6 
 
 3-6 
 
 3-5 
 
 3-4 
 
 3-3 
 
 Scotland ... - 
 
 5-0 
 
 4-9 
 
 5-2 
 
 4-6 
 
 4-1 
 
 4-2 
 
 4-1 
 
 4-1 
 
 3-7 
 
 Ireland . - - - 
 
 
 
 5-3 
 
 6-2 
 
 5.1 
 
 4-7 
 
 4-5 
 
 4-5 
 
 4-5 
 
 4-6 
 
 Australia . - . 
 
 5-2 
 
 5-5 
 
 5-1 
 
 4-7 
 
 3-8 
 
 3-7 
 
 3-5 
 
 3-5 
 
 3-3 
 
 New Zealand - 
 
 5-0 
 
 5-7 
 
 5-9 
 
 4-8 
 
 3.5 
 
 3-4 
 
 3-2 
 
 3-2 
 
 3-2 
 
 K 4
 
 80 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSIOX : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: 
 
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 P0MIN'I0N8 KOTAI. COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE TPIE COMMISSION : 
 
 TABLE XI. 
 
 Numbers of Unmarried Males and Females hetireeii 
 certain Age Limits in London Boroughs ^lf•ll). and 
 certain indices of Social Status. 
 
 Borough. 
 
 15—35. 
 
 
 isl 
 
 c 9 
 
 6 
 
 5 ^ i " 0) 
 
 ' o 
 
 Hampstead - 
 
 Kensington - 
 
 Holborn 
 
 Wandsworth 
 
 PaJJington ■ 
 
 Lewisham - 
 
 St. Maryle- 
 bone. 
 
 Stoke Xew- 
 ingtou. 
 
 Westminster 
 
 Chelsea 
 
 Hammer- 
 smith. 
 
 Lambeth 
 
 Fulham 
 
 Camberwell 
 
 Hackney 
 
 Battersea 
 
 St. I'ancras - 
 
 Islington 
 
 Deptford 
 and Green- 
 wich. 
 
 ■Woolwich - 
 
 Southwark - 
 
 Finsbnry 
 
 Stepney 
 
 Poplar 
 
 Bermondsey 
 
 Bethnal 
 Green. 
 
 Shoreditch - 
 
 E 
 
 o 
 
 E 
 
 c 
 
 82-9 
 ()7 
 5S(ll20-7 
 .->()■ 3 34-4 
 .53-3J4(i-7 
 52-2 I 35-8 
 51-2 UfiO 
 
 46-5 
 
 43-3 
 3S-!I 
 37-4 
 
 35-6 
 
 34 
 
 33 
 
 33 
 
 32 
 
 32 
 
 3u 
 
 26 
 
 6-4 
 
 27-6 
 
 53 4 
 25 4 
 
 18-7 
 
 17-6 
 17-4 
 130 
 17-8 
 12-5 
 15 il 
 15-3 
 19-2 
 
 141 
 7-3 
 7-9 
 8-6 
 80 
 6-4 
 5-6 
 
 In Thousands. 
 
 10.3 
 
 18.6 
 
 0.2 
 
 lO.G 
 
 5.7 
 8,9 
 
 1,8 
 
 4,ti 
 -0,3 
 
 0,4 
 0,8 
 1.3 
 4,9 
 0,6 
 .9 2 
 
 1.0 
 -0,1 
 
 8.6 
 
 18.9 
 
 16.1 
 
 34.7 
 
 7,0 
 
 7.2 
 
 30,7 
 
 41.3 
 
 1.5.1 
 
 23.9 
 
 I. 5.2 
 
 20,9 
 
 13,3 
 
 22,2 
 
 5,6 
 
 7,4 
 
 24,6 
 
 29,8 
 
 6.8 
 
 11,4 
 
 14,3 
 
 14,0 
 
 33,7 
 
 34,1 
 
 1.5,6 
 
 16.4 
 
 28.5 
 
 29,8 
 
 24,5 
 
 29,4 
 
 18,2 
 
 17,6 
 
 27,1 
 
 24.9 
 
 36.6 
 
 37,6 
 
 11,9 
 
 11,8 
 
 :.. 
 
 I' 
 
 14,9 
 
 11.5 
 
 21.5 
 
 )9,0 
 
 10.0 
 
 9.3 
 
 32.1 
 
 29.1 
 
 17,6 
 
 15,y 
 
 14,4 
 
 12,5 
 
 13,9 
 
 13.7 
 
 12,2 
 
 11,4 
 
 .3,4 
 ■2.5 
 
 -0,7 
 3,0 
 1,7 
 1.9 
 
 -0,2 
 
 ■0,8 
 
 
 c 
 
 K — 
 
 In Thousands. 
 
 1.6 
 3.0 
 1,9 
 4,5 
 2.5 
 1.9 
 3,0 
 
 0,7 
 
 6,2 
 1,4 
 2,4 
 
 5,4 
 1,8 
 3,8 
 3,2 
 2.2 
 5.2 
 5.6 
 1.5 
 
 1,8 
 4,1 
 1,5 
 5,5 
 2.4 
 2^1 
 1,6 
 
 5.6 
 
 11.5 
 
 1,9 
 
 9,8 
 7.0 
 4,0 
 6,6' 
 
 1,8 
 
 3,7 
 
 3,0 ; 
 
 7,0 
 3,0 
 5,5 
 5,6 
 3.1 
 5,2 
 8.0 
 1.9 
 
 1.4 
 2.3 
 1.3 
 2.6 
 1,5 
 1,2 
 1,* 
 
 1,1 
 
 4.0 
 8.5 
 0.0 
 5.3 
 4,5 
 2,1 
 3,6 
 
 1,1 
 
 2.5 
 2^3 
 
 0.6 
 
 1,6 
 1,2 
 1,7 
 2.4 
 0.9 
 0.0 
 2.4 
 0.4 
 
 -0.4 
 -1.8 
 -0,2 
 -2.9 
 -0.9 
 -0,9 
 -0,2 
 
 - 0,6 
 
 TABLE XII. 
 
 Numhers of Umnarried Males and Females hetwBca 
 I") a/Mi 35 in the aggregate of County Boroughs, other 
 Urban Districts, and in Rural Districts in Comities and 
 divisions of Counties. {In t}u>usands.) 1911. 
 
 County. 
 
 Bedford 
 
 Berks - 
 
 Bucks 
 
 Cambs 
 
 Cheshire 
 
 Cornwall 
 
 Cumberland 
 
 Derby 
 
 Devon 
 
 Dcirset 
 
 Durham 
 
 Isle of Ely - 
 
 Esses - 
 
 Gloucester - 
 
 Hants - - - 
 
 Hereford 
 
 Herts - 
 
 Hunts - 
 
 Kent - 
 
 Lanes - 
 
 Leicester 
 
 Lincoln 
 
 London 
 
 Middlesex - 
 
 Monmouth - 
 
 Norfolk 
 
 Northants - 
 
 Northumberland - 
 
 Notts - 
 
 Oxford 
 
 Rutland 
 
 Shropsliire - 
 
 Somerset 
 
 Stafford 
 
 Suffolk, East 
 
 „ West 
 Surrey 
 Sussex, East 
 
 ,. West 
 Warwick 
 Westmoreland 
 Isle of Wight 
 Wiltshire 
 Worcestershire - 
 Yorks, £. Biding 
 N 
 
 ., W. .. 
 Glamorgan - 
 Remainder of S. 
 
 Wales. 
 N. Wales - 
 
 Aggregate 
 of County 
 Boroughs. 
 
 Males. 
 
 Fe- 
 males, 
 
 Remaining 
 
 Urban 
 Districts. 
 
 Rural 
 Districts. 
 
 Males. 
 
 Fe- 
 males. 
 
 JIales. 
 
 Fe- 
 males. 
 
 8.3 
 
 30.4 
 
 12.8 
 32.3 
 
 46.9 
 
 31,0 
 41.4 
 52.4 
 
 3,1 
 
 333.7 
 
 22.2 
 
 15.9 
 
 .504.3 
 
 10.2 
 17,3 
 10.0 
 37.7 
 25.3 
 5.5 
 
 4.4 
 
 65.8 
 
 7.9 
 
 15,9 
 23.0 
 
 68.8 
 
 10.2 
 
 29.7 
 
 12,1 
 
 153.6 
 
 46.8 
 
 8.6 
 
 32,0 
 
 13.8 
 25.4 
 
 45.6 
 
 28,3 
 53.0 
 49.2 
 
 352.8 
 28.9 
 13.4 
 
 569.0 
 
 9,1 
 21.8 
 11.5 
 36.7 
 32.5 
 
 8.0 
 
 63,7 
 
 8.4 
 
 20.5 
 35.1 
 
 69.5 
 
 11.1 
 
 28.3 
 
 9.7 
 
 166.7 
 
 39.7 
 
 12,7 
 
 6,6 
 
 8.8 
 
 5.5 
 
 52.9 
 
 15.4 
 
 18.6 
 
 31.7 
 
 24.4 
 
 17.2 
 
 60.8 
 
 3.9 
 
 84.0 
 
 10,1 
 
 36,7 
 
 4,2 
 
 20,2 
 
 2,5 
 
 83,2 
 
 166,5 
 
 10,6 
 
 19,0 
 
 107,4 
 33,9 
 
 6,1 
 14,1 
 28,5 
 22.4 
 
 4.7 
 
 .4 
 
 12.5 
 
 16.2 
 
 58,8 
 
 8.7 
 
 5.0 
 47.9 
 10.6 
 
 7.8 
 25.8 
 
 2,8 
 
 5,4 
 14,0 
 23,7 
 
 5,7 
 
 19,5 
 
 131,7 
 
 69,7 
 
 17.4 
 
 22.0 
 
 15.0 
 
 7.1 
 
 8.7 
 
 7.2 I 
 
 60.6 
 
 18.1 I 
 
 19.0 
 
 28.7 
 
 30.9 
 
 14.0 
 
 49.5 
 
 3.7 . 
 
 87.3 
 
 14.4 
 
 18.9 
 
 5,1 
 
 23.7 
 
 2.4 
 
 82.5 
 
 178.4 
 
 11.3 
 
 18,4 
 
 129,3 
 20,8 
 
 7.3 
 14.7 
 23.4 
 21.0 
 
 5,7 
 
 ,4 
 
 11.9 
 
 21,1 
 
 52.2 
 
 9,6 
 
 6,2 
 60.9 
 17,5 
 11,0 
 29,2 
 
 3.8 
 
 7.4 
 14,1 
 29,1 
 
 7.7 
 
 18,7 
 
 128,7 
 
 43,4 
 
 16,9 
 
 8.5 
 15.9 
 15.3 
 
 8.6 
 22,6 
 20,0 
 12.6 
 32,4 
 26.8 
 12.U 
 56.2 
 
 3.9 
 31.1 
 24.9 
 31.9 
 
 7,9 
 13,8 
 
 3,6 
 35.5 
 29,0 
 16.9 
 29.1 
 
 4.4 
 5.5 
 29.2 
 14,8 
 I.-..1 
 14,8 
 11,7 
 2,2 
 16.2 
 27.0 
 25.3 
 1.5.0 
 8.0 
 22.4 
 14,0 
 10,8 
 19,0 
 4,4 
 4,2 
 20.8 
 20.2 
 12.8 
 17,3 
 45,2 
 25,4 
 31.3 
 
 25,5 37,9 
 
 6.9 
 14.3 
 13.8 
 
 6.7 
 22.3 
 19.3 
 11.8 
 23.9 
 24.1 
 10.2 
 34.8 
 
 2.7 
 23.0 
 22.9 
 22,3 
 
 7,6 
 13,2 
 
 2.7 
 29,7 
 28,4 
 15,7 
 23.2 
 
 .5.6 
 
 4.8 
 
 23.0 
 
 12.6 
 
 14.6 
 
 12,6 
 
 9,5 
 
 1.7 
 
 13,7 
 
 26,5 
 
 20.4 
 
 10,3 
 
 6,3 
 
 27.2 
 
 13,7 
 
 9,1 
 
 15,8 
 
 4,7 
 
 3,1 
 
 14,0 
 
 20,1 
 
 9.6 
 
 13.4 
 
 34,7 
 
 19,4 
 
 28.5 
 
 30,7
 
 MlflRATIOK. 
 
 83 
 
 TABLE Xni. 
 BiKTH Bate or Certain Populations in Australia (1911) according to Birthplace. 
 
 
 No. of Women at Cen- 
 
 ■a -^ 
 
 
 ■r. (^ 
 
 No. uf Men at Census 
 
 25 
 
 1.5 = 
 
 10 
 
 « < 
 
 
 sus 1911 between Ages 
 
 ■■S ^ 2 a> 
 
 J3 
 
 
 1911 between Ages 
 
 U-, C ^ *^ 
 
 £ ?i 
 
 5S 
 
 liirthplace. 
 
 
 
 .•§f^ 
 
 £p 
 
 2H 
 
 
 
 ;gl^ 
 
 =Q Z 
 
 Ǥ 
 
 
 
 
 A "5s! 
 
 U-. o 
 
 i*j 
 
 
 
 Z "■3'S 
 
 **■* ? 
 
 u-S 
 
 
 15-45. 
 
 20-4U. 
 
 Total 
 
 (1911) 
 
 Bii 
 
 
 16-5 
 
 20-45. 
 
 77,500 
 
 20-S5. 
 
 Total 
 
 (1911) 
 
 Bii 
 
 6% 
 55- 
 
 
 England - 
 
 50,700 
 
 37,200 
 
 6,136 
 
 121 
 
 119,500 
 
 9,660 
 
 12-5 
 
 8.1 
 
 Wales - 
 
 1,700 
 
 1,.300 
 
 220 
 
 131 
 
 17-5 
 
 2,800 
 
 4,500 
 
 300 
 
 10-9 
 
 6-6 
 
 Scotland- 
 
 12,300 
 
 9,100 
 
 1,552 
 
 12-6 
 
 171 
 
 19,500 
 
 31, .500 
 
 2,311 
 
 11-8 
 
 7-3 
 
 Ireland - 
 
 17,100 
 
 10.700 
 
 1,431 
 
 8-4 
 
 13-4 
 
 18,000 
 
 35,300 
 
 2,168 
 
 121 
 
 6-2 
 
 New South Wales - 
 
 328,700 
 
 220,600 
 
 41,895 
 
 12-7 
 
 190 
 
 250,100 
 
 294,300 
 
 35,859 
 
 14.4 
 
 12-2 
 
 Victoria - 
 
 322,000 
 
 211,900 
 
 34,296 
 
 10-7 
 
 16-2 
 
 245,900 
 
 306,500 
 
 31,697 
 
 12-9 
 
 10-3 
 
 Queensland 
 
 106,400 
 
 69,800 
 
 12,927 
 
 12-2 
 
 18-5 
 
 76,000 
 
 81,800 
 
 9,488 
 
 12-5 
 
 11-6 
 
 South Australia 
 
 108.400 
 
 74.400 
 
 13,034 
 
 12-0 
 
 17-5 
 
 86,200 
 
 104.500 
 
 12.316 
 
 14-3 
 
 11-8 
 
 Western Australia - 
 
 14,100 
 
 8.500 
 
 1,882 
 
 13-4 
 
 22-1 10.00(» 
 
 11.900 
 
 1,323 
 
 13-2 
 
 HI 
 
 Tasmania 
 
 ■ifi.OOO 
 
 30.600 
 
 5,656 
 
 12-3 
 
 18-5 34,700 
 
 44,50(1 
 
 5,123 
 
 14-8 
 
 11-5 
 
 New Zealand - 
 
 11.000 
 
 S.800 
 
 1,283 
 
 11-7 
 
 14-7 
 
 11,400 
 
 13,300 
 
 1.267 
 
 111 
 
 9-6 
 
 Germany 
 
 3,200 
 
 2,300 
 
 551 
 
 171 
 
 24-3 
 
 7,400 
 
 11,700 
 
 1,062 
 
 14-4 
 
 91 
 
 Italy - - - 
 
 800 
 
 600 ; 
 
 179 
 
 23-3 
 
 30-2 1 
 
 3,500 
 
 4,300 
 
 290 
 
 8-2 
 
 6-8 
 
 United States - 
 
 1,200 
 
 900 
 
 92 
 
 7-6 
 
 10-2 
 
 2,200 
 
 3.000 
 
 186 
 
 8-4 
 
 6-1 
 
 TABLE XrV. 
 Mortality of the Population in Australia in 1911 according to Birthplace. 
 
 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 ' 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 
 
 of such Men 
 
 
 of such Men 
 
 
 of such Women 
 
 
 of such Women 
 
 
 
 which would 
 
 
 which would 
 
 
 which would 
 
 
 which would 
 
 
 
 have occurred 
 
 
 have occurred 
 
 
 have occurred 
 
 i 
 
 have occurred 
 
 
 
 it' the Death 
 
 
 if the Death 
 
 
 if the Death 
 
 
 if the Death 
 
 
 No. of 
 
 Rate at eanh 
 
 No. of 
 
 Eate at each 
 
 No. of 
 
 Rate at each 
 
 No. of 
 
 Eate at each 
 
 Hivih|.lai'r. 
 
 Deaths 
 
 quinquennial 
 
 Deaths 
 
 quiuqueuuial 
 
 Deaths 
 
 quinquennial 
 
 Deaths 
 
 qxunquenni;il 
 
 of Men 
 
 age-period for 
 
 of Men 
 
 age-period for 
 
 of 
 
 age-period 
 
 of 
 
 age-period fur 
 
 
 15-34. 
 
 the whole of 
 
 35 «4. 
 
 the whole of the 
 
 Women 
 
 for the whole 
 
 Women 
 
 the whole of 
 
 
 
 the correspond- 
 
 
 corresponding 
 
 15-34 
 
 of the corres- 
 
 35-64. 
 
 the eorrespoml- 
 
 
 
 ing male popu- 
 
 
 male po|}ula- 
 
 
 pouding female 
 
 
 ing female 
 
 
 
 lation of the 
 
 
 tiou of the 
 
 
 population of 
 
 
 population of 
 
 
 
 Commonwealth 
 
 
 Commonwealth 
 
 
 the Common- 
 
 
 the Common- 
 
 
 
 applioil. 
 
 • 
 
 applied. 
 
 
 wealth applied. 
 
 939 
 
 wealth applied. 
 
 England 
 
 234 
 
 207 
 
 1,752 
 
 1,775 
 
 115 
 
 117 
 
 887 
 
 Wales . . - - 
 
 8 
 
 7 
 
 64 
 
 68 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 31 
 
 32 
 
 Scotland 
 
 SO 
 
 54 
 
 569 
 
 479 
 
 28 
 
 29 
 
 229 
 
 231 
 
 Ireland - - - - 
 
 70 
 
 36 
 
 781 
 
 65J 
 
 32 
 
 28 
 
 516 
 
 447 
 
 New South Wales - 
 
 876 
 
 969 
 
 1.394 
 
 1,602 
 
 864 
 
 922 
 
 1.107 
 
 1.163 
 
 Victoria 
 
 794 
 
 873 
 
 1,668 
 
 1,714 
 
 887 
 
 848 
 
 1,315 
 
 1,268 
 
 Queensland - 
 
 312 
 
 320 
 
 242 
 
 226 
 
 317 
 
 306 
 
 167 
 
 172 
 
 South Australia 
 
 286 
 
 .318 
 
 502 
 
 614 
 
 330 
 
 302 
 
 417 
 
 449 
 
 Western Australia 
 
 33 
 
 41 
 
 58 
 
 64 
 
 33 
 
 38 
 
 36 
 
 47 
 
 Tasmania 
 
 126 
 
 127 
 
 289 
 
 336 
 
 151 
 
 125 
 
 236 
 
 241 
 
 New Zealand 
 
 40 
 
 35 
 
 70 
 
 63 
 
 29 
 
 31 
 
 43 
 
 39 
 
 Germany ... 
 
 1(1 
 
 it 
 
 185 
 
 193 
 
 4 
 
 7 
 
 63 
 
 78 
 
 Italy ■- . . - 
 
 21 
 
 11 
 
 26 
 
 29 
 
 2 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 United States 
 
 4 
 
 6 
 
 28 
 
 34 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 t 
 
 12 
 
 L Z
 
 84 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 
 
 -PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : 
 
 TABLE XV 
 
 MORTAXiITr OF THE POPULATION IN AUSTRALIA IN 1911 ACCORDING TO LENGTH OF RESIDENCE. 
 
 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 Oi... 
 
 No. of Deaths 
 
 
 
 of such Men 
 
 
 of such Men 
 
 
 of such Women 
 
 
 of such Women 
 
 
 
 which would 
 
 
 which would 
 
 _ 
 
 which would 
 
 
 which would 
 
 
 
 have occurred 
 
 
 have occurred 
 
 
 have occurred 
 
 
 have occurred 
 
 
 
 if the Death 
 
 
 if the Death 
 
 
 if the Death 
 
 
 if the Death 
 
 
 No. of ■ 
 
 Rate at each 
 
 No. of 
 
 Rate at each 
 
 No. of 
 
 Rate at each 
 
 Xo. ,,f 
 
 Kate at each 
 
 Length of residence in 
 
 Deaths 
 
 quinquennia! 
 
 Deaths 
 
 quinquennial 
 
 Deaths 
 
 quinquennial 
 
 Deaths 
 
 quinquennial 
 
 Australia. 
 
 of Men. 
 
 age-porii-xl for 
 
 of Men, 
 
 ape-period for 
 
 of 
 
 a_?e-perind fur 
 
 of 
 
 a.ire-period for 
 
 
 L5-34. 
 
 the whole of the 
 
 35-64. 
 
 the \\iiole of the 
 
 Women 
 
 the whole of 
 
 \^'omen 
 
 the whole of 
 
 
 
 corresponding 
 
 
 corrcsponcUug 
 
 15-34. 
 
 the correspond- 
 
 35-64. 
 
 tlje correspond- 
 
 
 
 male popula- 
 
 
 male popula- 
 
 
 ing female 
 
 
 ing female 
 
 
 
 tion of the 
 
 
 tion of the 
 
 
 population of 
 
 
 population of 
 
 
 
 Commonwealth 
 
 
 Common- 
 
 
 the Common- 
 
 
 the Common- 
 
 
 
 applied. 
 
 
 wealth applied. 
 
 
 wealth applied. 
 
 
 wealth applied. 
 
 Under 1 year 
 
 162 
 
 105 
 
 73 
 
 75 
 
 34 
 
 32 
 
 27 
 
 29 
 
 Between 1 and 2 years - 
 
 67 
 
 47 
 
 24 
 
 33 
 
 9 
 
 18 
 
 13 
 
 16 
 
 .. 2 and 3 .. - 
 
 68 
 
 35 
 
 34 
 
 27 
 
 17 
 
 13 
 
 13 
 
 12 
 
 3 and 4 
 
 43 
 
 25 
 
 26 
 
 22 
 
 21 
 
 9 
 
 5 
 
 9 
 
 ,. -i and 5 
 
 22 
 
 15 
 
 19 
 
 16 
 
 18 
 
 5 
 
 8 
 
 7 
 
 ,. 5 and 10 .. - 
 
 67 
 
 45 
 
 71 
 
 66 
 
 18 
 
 17 
 
 39 
 
 28 
 
 „ 10 and 15 .. 
 
 37 
 
 43 
 
 142 
 
 116 
 
 18 
 
 19 
 
 44 
 
 39 
 
 ., 15 and 20 .. - 
 
 30 
 
 23 
 
 162 
 
 167 
 
 9 
 
 17 
 
 53 
 
 64 
 
 ., 20 and 25 ., - 
 
 41 
 
 48 
 
 457 
 
 545 
 
 35 
 
 46 
 
 206 
 
 222 
 
 „ 25 and 30 „ - 
 
 38 
 
 47 
 
 699 
 
 816 
 
 35 
 
 45 
 
 327 
 
 326 
 
 „ 30 and 35 ,. - 
 
 7 
 
 11 
 
 625 
 
 607 
 
 10 
 
 10 
 
 255 
 
 214 
 
 .. 35 and 40 ,. - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 359 
 
 351 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 171 
 
 141 
 
 ., 40 and 45 ,. - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 256 
 
 227 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 188 
 
 131 
 
 ,. 45 and 5(1 .. - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 189 
 
 205 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 139 
 
 150 
 
 ., 50 and 55 .. - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 171 
 
 190 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 143 
 
 141 
 
 .. 55 and 60 .. - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 168 
 
 244 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 160 
 
 179 
 
 „ 60 and 65 „ - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 48 
 
 44 
 
 ~ 
 
 ! 
 
 36 
 
 33 
 
 TABLE XVI. 
 
 Limiting Bates op Increase (Peecentage of the Mean Intercensal Populations) assumed 
 
 FOR the Estimation of the Population of the various Countries in 1921. 
 
 Under < Lower 
 15 I Upper 
 
 Over I Lower 
 15 ( Upper 
 
 Total ^]f^^^ 
 I Upper 
 
 E:«iI.AND -I I 
 
 AND Scotland. Ireland. ' Australia. ! 
 
 Wales. 
 
 Males.'F'male9 
 
 New 
 Zealand. 
 
 Aggueijate 
 Canada. of 
 
 I Countries. 
 
 Males.iF'males Males. F'malesiMales. F'males.Males. F'malesMales. F'maIeslMales.'F'male8 
 
 i I I I I 
 
 9 
 12 
 
 9 
 ]1 
 
 9 
 12 
 
 9 
 11 
 
 2 
 
 —5 
 
 -5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 10 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 1 ^ 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 15 
 
 15 
 
 25 
 
 25 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 ! 5 
 
 
 
 -5 
 
 25 
 
 30 
 
 30 
 
 30 
 
 
 
 . — 
 
 . — 
 
 i 8 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 35 
 
 40 
 
 40 
 
 40 
 
 — 
 
 . — 
 
 — 
 
 ' 4 
 
 -2 
 
 -5 
 
 15 
 
 18 
 
 20 
 
 20 
 
 20 
 
 20 
 
 10 
 
 ~ 
 
 2 
 
 « 
 
 25 
 
 28 
 
 35 
 
 35 
 
 35 
 
 35 
 
 14 
 
 10 
 
 14
 
 MIGRATION. 
 
 TABLE XVII. 
 Populations in 1921 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase Shown in 
 
 Table XVI. hold. (Thoasanda.) 
 
 — 
 
 
 Lower Limit. 
 
 'i 
 
 Upper Limit 
 
 
 By using Kates of 
 Increase of Total Popu- 
 lation. 
 
 
 Under l.T. 
 
 Over 13. 
 
 Total. j 
 
 Uuder 1.% 
 
 Ovfr 1."). 
 
 Total. 
 
 Lower Limit. 
 
 Upper Limit. 
 
 
 
 
 ENGLAND AND WALES. 
 
 
 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 5,757 
 5,745 
 
 i 13.035 
 1 14,337 
 
 18,792 
 20,082 
 
 38.874 
 
 5,991 
 5,979 
 
 13,431 
 14,772 
 
 28,203 
 
 19.422 
 20.771 
 
 19,086 
 20,376 
 
 19,470 
 20,786 
 
 Total - 
 
 11.502 
 
 27.372 
 
 11,970 
 
 40.193 
 
 39,462 
 
 40,2.56 
 
 
 
 
 SCOTLAND. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Males 
 Females 
 
 789 
 , 779 
 
 1 1.568 
 
 1.615 
 1.774 
 
 3.389 
 
 2.404 813 
 2.553 803 
 
 4,957 1,616 
 
 1,664 
 1,828 
 
 2,477 
 2,631 
 
 5,108 
 
 2,402 
 , 2,552 
 
 2,475 
 2,630 
 
 Total - 
 
 3,492 
 
 4,954 
 
 5,105 
 
 
 
 
 IRELAND. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 628 
 609 
 
 1,532 
 1,482 
 
 2,160 
 2,091 
 
 694 
 673 
 
 I .:!fi7 
 
 1,610 
 1,558 
 
 2,304 
 2,231 
 
 ! 2,149 
 ! 2,091 
 
 2,236 
 2,198 
 
 Total - 
 
 1.237 
 
 1 3,014 
 
 4.251 
 
 3,168 
 
 j 4,535 
 
 4,240 
 
 4,434 
 
 
 
 
 AUSTRALIA. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 750 
 730 
 
 1,480 
 
 2,050 
 1.948 
 
 3,998 
 
 2,800 
 2,678 
 
 5,478 ! 
 
 828 
 806 
 
 2,258 
 2,143 
 
 4,401 
 
 1 3,086 
 2,949 
 
 6,035 
 
 2,686 
 2,562 
 
 2,963 
 2,826 
 
 Total - 
 
 2,634 
 
 5,248 
 
 5.789 
 
 
 
 
 NEW ZEALANE 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 177 
 171 
 
 348 
 
 500 
 433 
 
 933 
 
 677 
 604 
 
 205 
 199 
 
 404 
 
 551 
 477 
 
 1,028 
 
 756 
 676 
 
 1,432 
 
 649 
 5S2 
 
 1,231 
 
 751 
 673 
 
 Total - 
 
 1,281 
 
 1,424 
 
 , 
 
 
 
 CANADA. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4,662 
 4,128 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 5,.392 
 4,776 
 
 10,168 
 
 4.662 
 4.128 
 
 5,.392 
 4,776 
 
 Total - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8,790 
 
 8,790 1 
 
 10,168 
 
 
 
 AG 
 
 GREGATE OF COUl 
 
 ^TRIES. 
 
 
 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 31,495 , _ ! 
 32,140 — 1 
 
 — 
 
 33,437 
 34,034 
 
 31,634 1 
 32,291 1 
 
 63,925 
 
 33,287 
 33,889 
 
 Total - 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 63,635 — 
 
 — 
 
 67,471 
 
 1 
 
 67,176 
 
 L:3
 
 86 
 
 DilMIXrONS liOYAI. COMMISSION : — PAPKKS I.AIP BEFORE THE COMMISSION : 
 
 TABLE XVni. 
 
 Populations in 1931 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase shown in 
 Table XVI. hold foe two Inteecensal Pekiods. (Thousands.) 
 
 Dnder l."). 
 
 Lower Limit. 
 
 Over 1.1 
 
 Total. 
 
 L'nder 15. 
 
 Upper Limit. 
 
 Over 1.=). 
 
 Total. 
 
 ENGLAND AND WALES. 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 5,992 
 5,979 
 
 11,971 
 
 14,260 
 15,685 
 
 20,252 
 21,664 
 
 6,489 
 6,476 
 
 Total - 
 
 29,945 
 
 41,916 
 
 12,965 
 
 
 
 
 SCOTLAND. 
 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 805 
 795 
 
 1,697 
 1,865 
 
 2,502 , 
 
 2,660 • 
 
 ■ 1 
 
 855 
 
 844 
 
 Total - 
 
 1,600 
 
 3,562 
 
 5,162 
 IRELAND. 
 
 1,699 
 
 Males 
 Females - 
 
 597 
 5T9 
 
 1,.532 
 1,410 
 
 2,129 
 1,989 
 
 730 
 707 
 
 Total - 
 
 1,176 
 
 2.942 
 
 4,118 
 
 1,437 
 
 15,139 
 16,651 
 
 31,790 
 
 1,802 
 1,981 
 
 3'783 
 
 1,692 
 1,568 
 
 21,628 
 23,127 
 
 44,755 
 
 2,657 
 2,825 
 
 5,482 
 
 2,422 
 2,265 
 
 4,687 
 
 AUSTRALIA. 
 
 Males 
 Females • 
 
 Total- 
 
 788 
 767 
 
 1,555 
 
 2,626 
 2,619 
 
 3,414 
 3,386 
 
 961 
 936 
 
 3,186 
 3,172 
 
 4,147 
 4,108 
 
 5,245 
 
 .6,800 
 
 ' 1,897 
 
 6,358 
 
 8,255 
 
 NEW ZEALAND. 
 
 Males 
 Females • 
 
 Total- 
 
 196 
 189 
 
 385 
 
 673 
 
 582 
 
 1,255 
 
 869 
 771 
 
 1.640 
 
 263 
 255 
 
 518 
 
 815 
 706 
 
 1,521 
 
 1,078 
 961 
 
 2.039 
 
 CANADA. 
 
 Males 
 Females ■ 
 
 Total • 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 5,688 
 5,036 
 
 1 — — 
 
 I 
 
 — 
 
 10,724 
 
 — !"—_'■ 
 
 7,6U<J 
 6,740 
 
 14.349 
 
 Males 
 Females 
 
 AGGREGATE OF THE COUNTRIES. 
 
 34,854 
 35,506 
 
 39,541 
 40,026 
 
 Total- 
 
 70,360 
 
 79,567
 
 OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS : STEAMSHIP, POST, AND TELEGRAPH. 
 
 87 
 
 II.— OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS. 
 
 A. Steamship, Post, and Telegraph, 
 (i) Mails. 
 
 (a) Memorandum prepared by tlie Britisli Imperial Council of Commerce, at tlie x-eq^uest of' the 
 Dominions Royal Commission, sapplementing evidence tendered by the Chairman of the 
 former body on the subject of 
 
 The All-Red Mail Route. 
 
 On the occasion of the examination of the Cliiiuunau 
 of the British Imperial Council of Commerce ]>j the 
 Dominions Royal Commission on October 30tb, 1912. 
 it was suggested that a concrete scheme for an All-Red 
 Mail Route might be prepai-ed,* not necessarily as being 
 that recommended l)y the Council as superior to any 
 other, but with a view principally to affording a basis 
 for discussion. The British Imperial Council of 
 Commerce is a composite body having members in the 
 most remote portions of the Empire, and, clearly, the 
 triennial congress, which it organises, cannot do more 
 than express in general terms the view of the repi'e- 
 sentatives of British commerce. To discuss in detail 
 any concrete proposals in regard to the above-mentioned 
 subject, would indeed, so far as the Congress is con- 
 cerned, be a work of supererogation, even if such a 
 course were possible, and, accordingly, the proposition 
 referred to below (the details of which are readily 
 obtainable from the promoters) are only cited with the 
 object of basing certain observations and deductions 
 thereon. Obviously the members of the Coimcil 
 engaged in various branches of commerce and industry 
 are not in a position as a body to give a technical 
 opinion in favour of one scheme or another, a matter 
 which should be left to expei'ts. 
 
 There is no doubt that the Commercial Congress of 
 the Empire is influenced to some extent by sentiment ; 
 l)ut it is also true that that sentiment is chiefly 
 governed by the conviction that any proposals which 
 will seiwe to weld together the various portions of the 
 Empu-e are sound commercially as well as politically. 
 Consequently the resolution adopted by the Congress 
 in favour of an " All-Red '" mail route may be taken 
 as expressing, on behalf of commercial men as a whole, 
 a sentimental or patriotic conviction backed by com- 
 mercial common sense, with due appi-eciation of the 
 situation which has arisen in regard to the supply of 
 food in time of war. 
 
 The proposal to establish an All- British fast sei-vice 
 connectiug the United Kingdom (via Canada) with 
 Australia and New Zealand, and even Hong Kong, is 
 by no means new. It was indeed originally pro- 
 pounded almost a century ago, though principally 
 from a definite standpoint, i.e., the advantage to be 
 derived in time of war, which is only one of many 
 aspects now considered by those favouring the modern 
 development of the idea. 
 
 The existence of a fast mail and freight service to 
 and from all parts of the Empire by British steamers 
 and via British territory only, suggests very obvious 
 advantages from many points of view, and, indeed, 
 since the Emphe Commercial CongTess first discussed 
 the matter, the principle involved has been laid before, 
 and approved by, successive Imperial Conferences. 
 That the time has come when the various Governments 
 concerned should assist in promoting a scheme having 
 that end in view is very generally accepted. 
 
 The principal hnk in the Imperial chain which 
 remains to be forged is the first stage, namely, the 
 connection between the United Kingdom and Canada. 
 
 Broadly speaking, two proposals have been put for- 
 ward, the first suggesting a fast subsidised service du-ect 
 
 ^1 1 ■. 1 1, I', n -:. [I ^ I ot [0 1. ii)i7j. 
 
 from Livei-poolor Bristol to Halifax (N.S.) or St. John 
 (N.B.) and perhaps in open weather, Montreal ; while 
 the second looks to the utilisation of one of the natui-al 
 harbours on the west coast of Ireland. The latter has 
 advantages in the saving of time not only by the fact of 
 more of the journey l>eing accomplished by rail, but 
 because the sea journey will also be more than corres- 
 pondingly reduced. The Irish Channel might be 
 traversed by ferry, and in this connection it may be 
 useful to quote the following obseiwations contained in 
 a memorandum on the subject of fen'iss by the late 
 Sir William White, H.M. Director of Naval Coustnic- 
 tion : he wrote, " The length, bulk, and weight of a 
 modern railway train natm-ally produce an impression 
 that both the operation of placing it on board a ship 
 and its presence on the deck when the vessel is in a 
 seaway must involve serious risk, and must prejudicially 
 aifect the stability and behaviom- of a FeiTy Steamer. 
 This popidar view has never found favour with naval 
 architects and civil engineers. . . . The feasibility 
 and safety of railway-ferry steamers is no longer a 
 matter for debate ; the question has been settled by 
 actual experience in various pai'ts of the Vorld." The 
 necessity for this prebminaiy crossing has been held by 
 some to be an insupei-able objection to the route. This 
 refers principally to first-class passengers, and it seems 
 hardly likely that these, in order to avoid a sea passage 
 of three hours (in the case of Scotland, 1 hom-j would 
 add 20 hours to the Atlantic crossing. It may, of 
 course, be said that the west coast of Ii'eland route 
 would require, at the outset, the construction of a port 
 — the docks, &c., necessary for ocean liners and of 
 100 miles of railway ,_at relatively heavy cost, for which 
 Parliamentary powers have already been obtained, but 
 for the realisation of the fundamental principle of an 
 All-Red Mail Route, it is not essential that the west of 
 Ii-eland port and Halifax should be the terminal ports 
 of the steamers ; they need only be ports of call, with, 
 for ex,ample, Liverpool and Boston as the extremities of 
 the voyage. 
 
 For the moment, it is proposed to discuss the 
 advantages which such a route, if established, would 
 possess over the New York service. 
 
 The promoters of the Blacksod Bay scheme have 
 taken many practical steps towards its reaUsation. 
 Particulars have been published in pamphlet form, 
 but the main practical argument in its favom- (apai-t 
 from sentimental considerations and the question of 
 food supply in time of war) may be recapitulated here : 
 they apply, generally speaking, to any west coast of 
 Ireland point of departm-e, such, for instance, as 
 Galway, which is also favoured in some quarters : — 
 
 (1) The distance between Blacksod Bay and 
 
 Halifax is about 2,100 miles, which compares 
 with 3,150 miles between Livei'pool and New 
 Tork, and the ocean passage wotdd thus be 
 reduced from SJ to 3^ days, given steamers 
 of 25 knots. 
 
 (2) The actual time between London and New Tork 
 
 would be reduced from 5 J days to less than 
 5 days, whilst the time between Loudon aud 
 Montreal would be reduced from 6 J days to 
 4 J days. 
 
 L 4
 
 ss 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION 
 
 (3) Passenger traflSc from Northern Europe via the 
 
 East coast ports in the United Kingdom 
 would probably be atti-acted, as such an 
 itinerary, properly organised, would mean a 
 saving of still further time. 
 
 (4) The delays owing to tide and fog experienced at 
 
 Liverpool would be obviated entirely. Black- 
 sod Bay being enterable at any time and in 
 any weather. 
 
 (5) The .shorter ocean passage would requii-e less 
 
 coal and consequently leave more room on 
 the vessels for other purposes. 
 
 (6) The saving in time detailed above would also 
 
 benefit the mails, and the new route might 
 become the princii^al maU serWce between 
 United Kingdom and Korth America, an^l. 
 possilily. Australia and New Zealand. 
 
 These particular.s have been given, not. as lia>^ 
 ali-eady been pointed oat. with a view to advocating 
 the claims of the Blaoksod Bay or any other suggested 
 route, but for the purpose t>f emphasizing the obvious 
 advantages which attach to a direct route as such and 
 providing some definite data upon which practical 
 consideration of the matter as a sound commercial 
 proposal can lie based. It may be stated that prac- 
 tically all Canadian and New Zealand statesmen of 
 influence have already expressed themselves in favour 
 of some such scheme. The resolutions of successive 
 Empu-e congresses demonstrate that in commercial 
 opinion Canada has reached that stage of develop- 
 ment — of commei-cial importance — which would ju.stify 
 the step advocated, both Imperially speaking and as a 
 matter of business. 
 
 Befoi-e passing to some general obsei-vations upt)n 
 the subject, it may ]ye well to consider a special 
 featui-e, which applies in its greatest degree to the 
 Blacksod Bay route, i.e., the advantages of the direct 
 service in time of war. 
 
 The bulk of naval opinion, and of that of the 
 majority of the experts, at the present day, appenrs 
 to favoui- the view that in time of war the policy of 
 naval comliatants would be one of concentration — 
 at any rate untU such time as a decisive engagement 
 had taken place. In other words, no navy would be 
 inclined, unless in a case of very great siiperiority. 
 to weaken itself by detaching imits for the pm-pose of 
 preying upon the enemy's commerce. And history 
 shows quite clearly that the destnaction of commerce, in 
 this wa}-, has never become so widespread as to exercise 
 a serious crippling effect, dii'ectly or indirectly, upon a 
 combatant. 
 
 On the other hand, it is impossible to find an 
 instance in history of a nation being so remarkably 
 dependent upon oversea imports of food as is the case 
 with the United Kingdom at present ; and accordingly 
 the possibility of the interruption to any appreciable 
 extent of trade routes must be considered as a factor 
 in case of war, not only as affecting the efficiency of 
 the fleet, but as an additional disturbing influence 
 upon markets which would already be in a state of 
 pertm-bation. From the standpoint of the probability 
 of maintaining food supplies vininterruptedly in the 
 
 time of war. the West Coast of Ireland-Canada route 
 is undoubtedly attractive, more especially when it is 
 remembered that Canada already provides us \vith a 
 large proportion of our wheat (by common consent 
 the article of fii'st necessity), a proportion which is 
 increasing year by year. The practical point is that 
 the route would be '-more remote from a probable 
 ■ enemy's base than other routes leading to the 
 • British Isles'": practically, indeed, out of range of 
 enemy cruisers, and, at the same time, the distance 
 from our own naval base would be but little increased ; 
 in other words, the proposed route is very advantageous 
 strategically, for protecting and ensuring regular 
 imports of food and raw material. For whilst nothing 
 could prevent rises, in time of war. in the cost of the 
 ]iriui ipal articles of food, owing to comparative shortage 
 and other causes, yet the fact of communication 
 with Canada, and through Canada witli Australia 
 and New Zealand, lieing practically unaifected. would 
 exercise a steadying influence upon home markets, the 
 importance of which can hardly be over-estimated. 
 
 Without going in detail into the financial aspects 
 of the question, a course which would lie quite outside 
 the functions of the Council, attention may perhaps be 
 drawn to the obvious inference that the reduction of 
 the ocean passage by practically one-thii-d entails 
 advantages in the lesser number of vessels requii'ed, 
 together with all which that implies, from the decreased 
 consumption of coal, of wages, depreciation, food, ic, 
 downwards. Halifax is already the eastern terminus 
 of the trans-Canadian railways. 
 
 It is impossible to over-estimate the advantages 
 which may follow the transference of the express mail 
 service to Canada. The considerable decrease in the 
 time of transit of the mails even to New York itself 
 had already been touched upon. The diversion of the 
 stream of emigration more and more to British 
 Colonies would be a natural corollary. The develop- 
 ment of trade and all that depends upon maritime 
 relations of such a nature would necessarily take place, 
 this time to the advantage of other portions of the 
 Empire and not of the foreigner. Indeed, a great 
 forward movement would be made towards the desire 
 of the Imperialist to see the Empii-e largely self- 
 supporting. 
 
 Quite recently, the Canadian Government con- 
 tracted with Canadian steamship lines for a tri-weekly 
 direct serWce in summer, and bi-weekly in winter, and 
 no coiTespondence from the Dominion is apparently 
 despatched cia New York except that which is specially 
 inscribed ^vith'an instniction to that eifect. Theeifect 
 of this has been to decrease the number of mails from 
 Canada, but not, on an avei-age, to increase the time of 
 transit. If this result can be obtained under existing 
 conditions, it is clear that the full participation of the 
 Home Government in the endeavour to transfer the 
 principal mail route to Canada, would bring about 
 results which woiild be of inestimable benefit to the 
 Empire. 
 
 By order, 
 
 CHARLES E. MUSGRAVE. 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 November 1913. 
 
 (b) Acceleration of Steamship Services. 
 
 COREESPONDENCE WITH THE PeNINSUIAE ASD ORIENTAL StEAM NAVIGATION COMPANY AND THE 
 
 Obient Steam Navigation Company. 
 
 1. Royal Commission to P. &. 0. Company, 18th A\:^ust 1913 
 
 2. P. & O. Company to the Royal Commission, 21st August 1913 -^ 
 
 3! Royal Commission to the Orient Steam Navigation Company, ISth August 1913 
 4. Orient Steam Navigation Company to the Royal Commission, 26th August 1913 
 
 p. 88 
 p. 89 
 p. 89 
 p. 89 
 
 1. 
 Dominions Royal Commission, 
 
 Scotland House, 
 Victoria Embankment, London, S.W. 
 SiK, 18th August 1913. 
 
 I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions 
 Royal Commission to state that the Commission has 
 recently heard evidence in Australia on the subject of 
 
 mail communications between the Commonwealth and 
 the United Kingdom. The Chairman is desirous of 
 obtaining as much information as possible as to the 
 cost of accelerating the existing service and would 
 be much obliged if your Company could furnish any 
 approximate statement as to the amovmt which they 
 would think reasonable if the average rate of speed at 
 sea on the Aiistralian seiwice were increased to (a)
 
 OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS: STEAMSHIP, POST, AND TELEGRAPH. 
 
 80 
 
 17A knots, {})) 20 knots, the other conditions of the 
 service remaininii- as at present. 
 
 The Chairman realises that the question is com- 
 plicated by the fact that the existing contract of the 
 Peninsular and Oriental Company with His Majesty's 
 Government covers the conveyani'S of mails to India 
 and China as well as to Australia, and he thinks that in 
 the circumstances the Company may prefer to deal 
 with the sul)ject in oral evidenc ebefore the Commission. 
 If the Company consider this course more desirable 
 than furnishing a, written statement, the Commission 
 would be glad to hear any representative whom they 
 may depute for the purpose when they resume their 
 sittings in the autumn. 
 
 I am, Ac, 
 The Secretary, E. J. HARDING. 
 
 Peninsular and Oriental 
 
 Steam Navigation Company. 
 
 Peninsular and Oi-iental Steam Navigation Company, 
 
 122, Leadenhall Street, London E.G. 
 Sir, 21st August 1913. 
 
 With reference to your letter of the 18th instant 
 I am instructed by the Directors to say that they 
 regret that it is not in their power to give any cleai' 
 evidence on the subject of mail communication between 
 the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth of 
 Australia, either in writing or viva voce. 
 
 In order t(j accelerate the existing mail service with 
 Australia in the manner suggested by your letter, it 
 would require a new fleet of steamers, at a cost of 
 sevei-al millions sterling, to be followed by a working 
 expenditure which, at the present moment, it is quite 
 impossible to estimate. Such l)eiug the case the 
 Directors do not think it would be advisable to enter 
 into a sei'ies of hypothetical calculations in a matter of 
 such serious importance. 
 
 But in order to show your Commission that this 
 problem has been before the Company for some years, 
 I am to enclose I'opy of a letter from our Chairman to 
 Mr. Joseph Chaml)erlain, when the latter was Secretary 
 of Stiite for the Colonies, which dealt with certain 
 aspects of the case. I am to ask that the enclosures 
 should be treated confidentially, as the Directors do 
 not wish the letter or memoriiiKbiiu* printed amongst 
 youi' public documents. 
 
 Circumstances have so far changed since 19(12 thivt 
 the Suez Canal would now admit of much larger vessels 
 passing through than was the case at that date, but 
 the adoption of the Canal route, although it might tend 
 to accelerate the service as compared with that via the 
 Cape (although this is by no means certain, seeing the 
 number of ports which might have to be stopped at) 
 would inevitably increase the working cost of the 
 service. 
 
 I am, &c., 
 
 I, M. SHIELDS, 
 The Secretary for Secretary, 
 
 Domiui(jns Royal Commission. 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission, 
 
 Scotland House. 
 Victoria Embankment, London, S.W., 
 Gentlemen, isth August 1913. _ 
 
 I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions 
 Royal Commission to state that the Commission has 
 
 * This letter and its enclosures are not pMiited amongst 
 the |iiiblic doouments of the Cominissioi). 
 
 recently heard evidence in Australia on the subject of 
 accelerating the Mail Service between the Common- 
 wealth and the United Kingdom, and in this connection 
 the Chairman's attention has been called to the 
 provisions of clause 6 of the Agreement between the 
 Commonwealth Government and the Orient Company 
 of the 15th November 190", which referred to the 
 payment of an increased subsidy to the Company, 
 under certain conditions, for an accelerated service. 
 
 The Commission is desirous of ascertaining as 
 nearly as possible the amount of the additional cost 
 which would be incun-ed by the Commonwealth 
 Government for such an accelerated service, and the 
 Chairman would be obliged if you could inform 
 him approximately what additional subsidy would be 
 thought i-easonable if the rate of speed were increased 
 (a) to 17A knots, and (b) 20 knots, the other conditions 
 of the contract remaining unaltered. 
 
 I am to add that the Commission would be glad to 
 hear evidence on the subject by a representative of the 
 Company in the autumn, if they should prefer that 
 method of giving the infoimation. 
 
 I am, &c., 
 Messrs. Anderson and Anderson, E. J. HARDING. 
 5, Fenchurch Street. 
 
 4. 
 
 Orient Steam Navigation Company, Limited, 
 13, Fenchurch Avenue, London, E.G., 
 Sir, 26th August 1913. 
 
 I HAVE to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 
 the 18th instant, addressed to Messrs. Anderson. 
 Anderson & Co., asking them to inform your CJiainnan 
 approximately what additional subsidy would be 
 thought reasonable if the rate of speed (by which I 
 understand you to mean average speed at sea) imder 
 this Company's Australian mail contract were increased, 
 (ft) to 174- knots, and (6) to 20 knots. 
 
 To maintain such average speeds and to preserve 
 practicaljle times of call at intermediate ports a speed 
 considerably higher over long sections of the route 
 would be called for, witli a correspondingly enhanced 
 consumption of coal, the replacement of which ch route 
 would greatly reduce any gain in period of transit. 
 
 The Orient Company has, within the last four years, 
 in fulfilment of the policy laid down by the Comm(ni- 
 wealth Government, constructed six large mail steamers 
 and is constructing a seventh, at a cost considerably 
 exceeding two millions sterling. 
 
 These vessels under trial conditions exceii IS 
 knots speed, but the performance of such a contract 
 as you indicate would reijuire their replacement by 
 steamers of an entirely different type, of vastly greater 
 capital and operating cost, and with little, if any, 
 capacity for freight, from which a considerable propor- 
 tion of this Comfjany's present revenue is dei-ived. 
 
 The revolution in capital account caused by the 
 withdrawal of a new fleet and the building of a still 
 newer one in substitution — to say nothing of the 
 disturljance of revenue possibilities attaching to the 
 new type — wotdd make any approximation with which I 
 could furnish you little better than guesswork, though 
 I have said enough to make it clear that the cost would 
 be enormous and, in the opinion of this (company, out 
 of all proportion to the advantages derivable. 
 
 In these circumstances a representative of the 
 Company coidd not give effective evidence and I can 
 only i-egx-et my inability to give you more than the 
 information contained above. 
 
 I am, &c.. 
 E. J. Harding, Esq., E. A. VEALE. 
 
 Secretary, Secrecai-y. 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission. 
 
 E 30S3O 
 
 M
 
 00 
 
 DOMISIOXS UOYAL COMMlSSluX 
 
 -I'APEIiS LAID BEFORE TUE COMMISSION 
 
 (c) Memorandum by Professor Sir John Harvard Biles, LL.D., D.Sc, on the Economic 
 
 Size and Speed of Steam Vessels. 
 
 Size. 
 
 Quesiion 1. — To what extent is the assumption valid 
 that a yiveii volume of cargo and passenger trafic can 6« 
 carried more economically by means of a fieet of a few 
 large steamers than by ^neans of a large number of small 
 steamers / 
 
 An investiijiition into this matter was the basis of 
 a paper read by n;e to the Institution of Naval Archi- 
 tects in 1!M)(I. A carj^o-cairying vessel -lUO ft. long, of 
 1'2 knots speed, was I'onsidered, and on deiiuite con- 
 ditions as to stability, dimensions of a series of similar 
 shij)s lip to 700 ft. in length were estimated. Tliese 
 dimensions were obtained on two assiunptious, (o) that 
 the di-aught remained constant at 28 ft. ; (6) that the 
 draught varied as the length of the ship. Taking a length 
 of voyage of 5,000 sea miles the following figures were 
 obtained fur the cost of transporting one ton of cargo, 
 («} di'aught constilnt at 28 ft. 
 
 Length of ship 
 Cost in shillings per 
 ton of cargo ' 
 
 Ft. 
 
 Ft. 
 
 Ft. 
 
 Ft. 
 
 500 
 
 550 
 
 600 
 
 0.50 
 
 8-6 
 
 9-0 
 
 It • <; 
 
 10-4 
 
 Ft. 
 
 700 
 11-2 
 
 {b) Draught varying- 
 
 Ft. 
 
 Ft. 
 
 Ft. 
 
 Ft. 
 
 Ft. 
 
 1 
 
 Length of ship - | 500 
 Cost in shiOings per 
 
 ton of cargo - 8 "6 
 
 550 j 600 
 8-0 ■ 7-6 
 
 650 
 7-2 
 
 700 
 7-0 
 
 It will be seen that xuider the condition of re- 
 stricted draught the cost of transport steadily 
 increases with increase of length ; whereas if draught 
 be unrestricted the cost steadily decreases with in- 
 crease of length, not, however, at a rate directly 
 proportional to the increase of length. 
 
 For this Commission a similar investigation was 
 can-ied out, the type ship being a passenger and cargo 
 steamer 490 ft. long and of 14 knots speed. The 
 dimensions of a series of similar ships were estimated 
 for a voyage of 3,000 sea miles, the length ranging up 
 to 1,000 ft., luider the two conditions of (a) constant 
 di'aught 28 ft. 3 Ins., and (b) draught varying as length. 
 The cost of transport per ton was estimated, and it was 
 found that in the 700-ft. ship it was 1 }, times as great ; 
 in the 9i)0-ft. ship it was twice as great ; and in the 
 1,000-ft. sliij) it was 2i times as great in a ship of 
 restricted draught as in the coiresjjonding length of 
 ship of unrestricted draught. The conclusion that un- 
 restricted di-aught is necessai-y for economic ti^ansport 
 can be arrived at from first principles. The weight of 
 hull for the I'estricted draught vessel increases much 
 more rapidly than the displacement. The beam cannot 
 be increased in the same ratio as the length, or the 
 stability conditions will be interferedVith. Before a 
 great length is reached the deadweight carried no longer 
 increases as the length of vessel increases, but begins to 
 decrease. Further, the excessive proijot-tion of breadth 
 to draught in the large vessel of restricted draught is 
 bad from the point of view of resistance, and, there- 
 fore, those ruiming costs which depend on the power 
 of the machinery are considerably increased. 
 
 The foregoing results were obtained on the basis 
 of the dimensions of ships which have been designed 
 for specific trades. The weights can-ied, the coal 
 consumed, and the costs of the vessels coire.spond 
 to definite designs. It may be that these designs are 
 
 not the best possible, but they represent the present 
 day pi-actice. If more economic designs of vessels 
 could be produced they would probably not affect the 
 comparison to an appreciable extent. 
 
 It will be seen from the aliove that if unrestricted 
 draught is attainable the large vessel will caiTy her 
 cargo more economically than the small vessel, and 
 therefore the fleet of a few large steamers is more 
 economical fur cargo carrying than that of a large 
 number of small steamers. The extent to which this 
 conclusi(/n will hold good is dependent upon the 
 relative amount of cargo and passenger traffic. If 
 there is no jjassenger revenue and the expense of 
 canying passenger accommodation is included in the 
 cost of hull and machinery, the extent to which this 
 assumption is valid seems to be alx)ut that of ships of 
 7-')0 ft. long. Beyond tliis the cost of carrying cargo 
 in passenger ships steadily increases imtil when the 
 ship is 1,000 ft. long it is 40 per cent, more than at 
 700 ft. long. If, however, ships 700 ft. and I.OOO ft. 
 long are both full of passengers the extra earnings of 
 the 1,000-ft. ship will about Ijalance the extra cost of 
 carrying the cargo. This question is further dealt with 
 in question 1 of Speed, where it is puinted out that it 
 may be possible to take advantage of increased dimen- 
 sions by modifying the methods of construction. 
 
 Question 2. — If larger steamers have greater economic 
 vnluc as cargo and jMssenger carriers, to what extent does 
 it follow that the draught must be increased in proportion 
 to increased length and beam I What, theoretically, 
 would be the ideal economic dimensions of a mixed cargo 
 and passenger steamer at given speeds and for given 
 routes / 
 
 The first part of this question is really answered in 
 the answer to question 1. In the coui-se of the in- 
 vestigations the unrestricted di'aught ships actually 
 had the draught vai'j'ing as length. In the 1,000-ft. 
 ship the draught actually worked out at •57'6ft., so 
 that in order that the fullest advantage may be taken 
 of di-aught it should vary as the linear dimensions. If 
 draught cannot be varied as the linear dimensions, the 
 cost of transport will be between those for the un- 
 restricted and restricted draught ships in proportion 
 to the amount which the increase of draught is short 
 oi the unrestricted di'aught. 
 
 The ideal economic dimensions of a mixed cargo 
 and i^assenger steamer would be those which, in the 
 case of the imrestrictod draught, had a draught which 
 was the working draught of the harbour. For 
 instance, supposing that a harbour had a working 
 draught of 40 ft., the dimensions corresponding to this 
 draught for 14-knots sjjeed would be about 7iiO by 87 
 by 71 4 dejith. If the dimensions of this ship are 
 much .increased without increase of ih'aught, the cost 
 per ton of can'ying cargo will rapidly increa-se. The 
 investigations so far carried out deal only with two 
 speeds, 12 and 14 Iniots. The same considei'ations 
 will apply to other speeds. 
 
 The 12-knot vessel has a most economical length at 
 about 7.^0 ft., and there will be no apjjreciable variation 
 between 700 ft. and 800 ft. This vessel is a pure 
 cargo steamer. In the 14-lniot vessel the economic 
 length is 700 ft., if there is no revenue from 
 passengers ; but if the vessel is full of passengers the 
 1,000-ft. ship would be, with possible reductions in 
 weight of hull, due to improvements in construction, 
 about as economical as a 750-ft. ship. It may, there- 
 fore, be seen that at 14 knots the economic length may 
 be as low as 750 ft., and cannot be moi'e than 1,000 ft., 
 and there would be a chance that with anything but the 
 fidl number of passengers the smaller ship would be 
 more economical. At 17 knots the economic length 
 for cargo carrying, when there is no revenue from 
 passengere, is 800 ft. ; with the full number of 
 passengers and the possible improved construction the
 
 OVERSEA COMMUNICATIO.V.S : STEAM811I1', I'U.ST, AND TELEGIIAPH. 
 
 91 
 
 1,000-ft. ship would be of about tlie same economy 
 as the 800-ft. ship. It would therefore seem that at 
 17 knots the most economical length would be some- 
 where between l.OCO and 800 ft., with a partial load of 
 passengers. The most economical length at 20-knots 
 speed is aliout 950 ft. for cargo revenue only. It is 
 evident, therefore, that the 1,000-ft. ship with a speed 
 of 20 knots would be, when carrying passengers, 
 certainly not above the economic length. From this it 
 win be seen as speeds increase the economic limit 
 increases, so that at 20 knots the vessel should be at 
 least 1,000 ft. long with a draught of 57 '6 ft. 
 
 Questimi 3. — Is the general tendency at present to 
 increase size and draught ? To what extent is the 
 tendency checked by lack of harbour facilities, especially 
 on the various inter-Imperial and Colonial routes f 
 What influence has the Suez Canal had on jnist develop- 
 ments of size, and what influence may altered conditions 
 there and the new conditions prevailing at Panama he 
 expected to exercise ? 
 
 The tendency to increase of size of ships is shown 
 )iy the two following tables compiled from Lloyd's 
 Register. The first table gives over a period of 
 10 years the numbers of steamers in existence in each 
 year graded according to tonnage, e.g., between 2,00O 
 and 3,(mj0 tons, 3,000 and 4,000 tons, and so on, up to 
 10,000 tons and over. The second table gives the 
 information of Table 1 expressed in percentages. For 
 instance, in 1913-11 the steamers between 3,000 and 
 4,000 tons formed 28 • 5 per cent, of the total number 
 of steamers over 2,000 tons. In 1907-8 the steamers 
 between the same tonnage limits formed 30 • 9 per cent. 
 of the total over 2,000 tons. 
 
 
 2,000- 
 
 3,000- 
 
 4,000- 5,000- 
 
 7,000- 
 
 10,000 
 and 
 over. 
 
 
 3,000. 
 
 4,000. 
 
 5,000. 7,000. 
 
 10,000. 
 
 1913-14 
 
 2,124 
 
 2,158 
 
 1,511 
 
 1,158 
 
 404 
 
 206 
 
 1912-13 
 
 2.077 
 
 2,100 
 
 1,402 
 
 1,015 
 
 861 
 
 177 
 
 1911-12 
 
 2,060 
 
 2,037 
 
 1,219 
 
 909 
 
 331 
 
 158 
 
 1910-11 
 
 2.062 
 
 1,996 
 
 1,227 
 
 859 
 
 298 
 
 135 
 
 1909-10 
 
 2,034 
 
 1,946 
 
 1,165 
 
 818 
 
 269 
 
 130 
 
 1908-9 
 
 2,025 
 
 1,911 
 
 1,126 
 
 797 
 
 265 
 
 119 
 
 1907-8 
 
 1,995 
 
 1,839 
 
 1,0.50 
 
 716 
 
 233 
 
 112 
 
 1906-7 
 
 1,913 
 
 1,710 
 
 931 
 
 644 
 
 197 
 
 102 
 
 1904-5 
 
 1,841 
 
 1,450 
 
 765 
 
 538 
 
 160 
 
 92 
 
 1903-4 
 
 1,790 
 
 1,344 
 
 677 
 
 508 
 
 145 
 
 83 
 
 Per cent. 
 
 -, 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 increase m 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1913-14 
 
 \ 1-' 
 
 60 
 
 213 
 
 228 
 
 278 
 
 248 
 
 over 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1903-4 
 
 J 
 
 
 • 
 
 
 
 
 The last lino, shows that the greatest percentage 
 increase in numbers in 10 yeiirs is in the vessels of 
 7^000-10,000 tons, and the next is in 10.000 tons and 
 over, the percentages in the kirger chiss increasing 
 more rapidly in the later years than in any of the 
 other classes. 
 
 
 2,000- 
 
 3,000- 
 
 4.000- 
 
 5,000- 
 
 7,000- 
 
 10,000 
 and 
 over. 
 
 
 3,000. 
 
 4,000. 5,000. ' 7,000. 
 
 10,000. 
 
 1913-14 
 
 28-1 
 
 28-5 1 20-0 
 
 15-3 
 
 5-3 
 
 2-7 
 
 1912-13 
 
 29-1 
 
 29-4 
 
 19-6 
 
 14-2 
 
 50 
 
 2-5 
 
 1911-12 
 
 30-7 
 
 30-3 
 
 181 ! 13-5 
 
 4-9 
 
 . 2-4 
 
 1910-11 
 
 31-4 
 
 30-4 
 
 18-7 
 
 130 
 
 4-5 
 
 20 
 
 1909-10 
 
 320 
 
 30-6 
 
 18-3 
 
 12-9 
 
 4-2 
 
 2-0 
 
 1908-9 
 
 32-4 
 
 30-6 
 
 18-0 
 
 12-8 
 
 4-2 
 
 1-9 
 
 1907-8 
 
 33-6 
 
 30-9 
 
 17-7 
 
 12-0 
 
 3-9 
 
 1-9 
 
 1906-7 
 
 34-8 
 
 311 
 
 16-9 
 
 11-7 
 
 3-6 
 
 1-9 
 
 1904-5 
 
 38 -O 
 
 29-9 
 
 15-8 
 
 11-1 
 
 3-3 
 
 1-9 
 
 1903-4 
 
 39-4 
 
 29-5 
 
 14-9 
 
 11-2 
 
 3-2 
 
 1-8 
 
 It will be seen that the percentage of the total formed 
 by vessels between 2,000 and 3,000 tons is steadily 
 decreasing. The percentage of vessels between 3,000 
 and 4,000 tons increased from 1903 to a maximum in 
 1907 and is now stea<lily decreasing. The percentages 
 of vessels of all grades over 4,000 tons are steadily 
 increasing over the range of years in the table, that 
 for vessels from 5,000 to 7,000 tons increasing rapidly. 
 The relatively rapid increase in the percentage of the 
 grade from 5,000 to 7,000 tons is dne to the fact that 
 at the present time the most popular size of cargo 
 carrier is one between these limits. For ships over 
 10,000 tons the percentages are, 1910-11, 20; in 
 1913-14, 2-7. 
 
 In 1912-13 there were 17 ships between 15,000 and 
 20,000 tons. 
 
 In 1913-14 there were 29 ships betweeu these 
 limits. 
 
 In no oases over 10,000 tons lias there been a 
 decrease in numbers ; the total increase in numbers 
 of vessels over 10,000 tons being in the last year from 
 177 to 206. 
 
 That the depth of harbours has had a, restrictive 
 effect on the draught of shijis is shown by the fact 
 that the modem large vessel has not the most 
 economic ratio of draught to breadth and length. 
 
 The printed memorandum on the Suez Canal* and 
 the relative advantages of trade through it and round 
 the Cape has dealt very fully with this subject. The 
 general conclusions reached seem to be that as far as 
 the distant Dominions are concerned there would be 
 little advantage gained by any pi-acticable deepening 
 of the Suez Canal. The rate at which the Canal has 
 been deepened would if continuously applied take 
 many years to reach 40 ft., and even then there would 
 be no appreciable gain in using the Canal for the far- 
 off Dominions. As far as India and China are con- 
 cerned there would still be an advantage on account of 
 distance saved. It may be that the increased draught 
 (40 ft.) available in the Panama Canal will make it 
 possible to run more economic steamers of greater 
 length to China in spite of the greater distance, but, 
 as stated in the above-mentioned memorandum, " the 
 " result of the opening of the Panama Canal route 
 " will depend on many features which are not clearly 
 " defined, e.g., tolls, intermediate coaling stations, 
 '■ amount of traffic, &c." 
 
 One thing which may be an advantage to the Suez 
 (janal is that the distances for which coal has to be 
 canned are less for a ship going through the Canal than 
 for one going round the Cape ; therefore, tlie average 
 amount of coal carried on a voyage to or from Australia 
 is less. This, however, is probably outweighed l)y the 
 fact that coal can be bought more cheaply on the 
 Cape route than oil the Canal route. Obviously, the 
 relative advantage m the two routes in this respect 
 must depend on the relative cost of coal. It seems, 
 however, that if deep harbours can lie got at both ends 
 of the voyage there willUie a considerable economic 
 advantage for some time in favour of tin- Cape route. 
 
 Question 4. — What dfplh of harbour is desirable to 
 meet the rcquirom,cnts of the deiiclopmenfs of naval 
 construction during, say, the next 20 or 30 years, 
 especially in the ports of the Dominions and Colonies ? 
 
 From what has been stated in answer to question 1 
 on size it will be seen that to attain the most economic 
 transport a vessel of a length of at least 750 ft., 
 having a draught of 43 • 2 ft. should be provided for. 
 It is obvious that for such a, vessel a draught of 
 Iiarbour of at least 45 ft. should be pi-ovided. The 
 question as to whether this should Ije at lowest low 
 water or at lowest high water must depend on the 
 volume of trade at the harbour. The reference 
 made later in Speed, question 1, to the possibility of 
 lightened ship construction in ships of greater length 
 than 700 ft., say 1.000 ft., and the influence of such 
 lightening upon the economically best length, is 
 difficult to detennine without very detailed consideration 
 of ship design. It seems, however, that in .ships 
 
 ,*'« page 61 of [Cd. 7210]. 
 
 M 2
 
 92 
 
 nOillNIONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPER.S LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: 
 
 1,000 ft. long it would l.>e possilile safely to reduce the 
 weiglit of structure a suificieut amount to make the 
 eargo-canymg rate sufficiently near to that of the 
 750-ft. sliip that the cargo revenue, together with 
 the enlarged passenger revenue due to the longer ship, 
 •would make the l.OUO-ft. ship a more economical 
 oan-ier than the 750-ft. ship. From this would follow 
 the necessity of a di-aught corresponding to l,(IO0-ft. 
 length, which is 57 6 ft. Therefore, it seems that an 
 improvement in construction involving a reduction in 
 weight of structure must be accompanied hy an increase 
 of depth of harbour before it can l)e made profitable. 
 It is not unreasonable to pi-edict, therefore, that within 
 20 or 30 years a depth of harbour of 60 ft. could be 
 profitably employed. 
 
 Question 5. — To what extent can. lighieraije facilities 
 be regarded as a substitute for deepened quay accom- 
 modation given adequate depth at entrance and at 
 anchorage ! 
 
 To answer this question fully would involve an 
 investigation of the relative costs of constructing and 
 maintaining quay walls and those of constructing, 
 maintaining and running lighters. The double 
 handling of cargo involved in lightei-age would also 
 require to be considered. The cost of harbour works is 
 purely a question of local circumstances, and, therefore, 
 cannot be considered in general terms. It might be 
 found that an ideal system woidd be to provide for a 
 given locality a single deep-water harbour with efficient 
 protection from the open sea and a fleet of relatively 
 lai-ge lighters (in fact, small cargo vessels) to travel 
 round the coast and act as feeders and distributors for 
 the large vessels using the deep-water harbour. This 
 system is particularly applicable to the case where the 
 deep-water harbour is at the end of a long sea voyage. 
 
 more than running at 14 knots, and at 2ll knots it is 
 practically pri_)liibitive. At 7U0 ft. the difference 
 between 14 and 17 knots is 
 800 ft. it is 41 per cent, more, 
 also about 18 per cent. more, 
 ditt'erences between 17 and 
 20 knots the cost 
 For 800 ft. the 
 
 32 per cent, more, at 
 
 it Olio and 1,000 ft. it is 
 
 There are als.i similar 
 
 20 knots. For 70i) ft. at 
 
 i«i more than double that at 17. 
 
 increase is about 5(1 per cent., for 
 
 900 ft. it is 30 per cent., and for 1,000 feet it is 17 per 
 cent. more. It will be seen from this that the per- 
 centage difference in cost of transport at the same 
 speed decreases as the length increases. It will also 
 be seen tliat the cost of transport increases with 
 increase of speed, but very much less in the great 
 lengths than in the small ones. The following tables 
 give comparative costs of carrying cargo at different 
 speeds and different lengths of ship : — 
 
 Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo ti,0(ll) sea 
 miles (coaling half way). 
 
 Length. 
 
 Draught. 
 
 Speed in Knots. 
 
 
 
 
 
 14. ! 17. 
 
 20. 
 
 490 
 
 28-25 
 
 1-01 
 
 
 
 1)00 
 
 34-6 
 
 •87 
 
 M2 
 
 
 700 
 
 40-3 
 
 •88 
 
 1^16 
 
 2 59 
 
 800 
 
 46-1 
 
 •87 
 
 123 
 
 1-89 
 
 900 
 
 51-9 
 
 1-05 
 
 1-23 
 
 1-61 
 
 1,000 
 
 57-6 
 
 1-2 
 
 1-43 
 
 1^68 
 
 Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo fi.dOO sea 
 miles, coal fuel being carried for the whole dist:ince. 
 
 Speed. 
 
 Question 1. — -Assuming a fixed speed, in. what ratio 
 will increased size provide lower cost of transport ? 
 
 Obviously there is a certain limit to the reduction 
 of ti-ansport cost consequent upon the increased size of 
 vessels. The figui-es given in (6) draiight varying (Size. 
 Question 1) indicate the i-ate of reduction of cost with 
 increase of size. It will be seen that the rate of re- 
 duction of cost tends to faU off at the greatest lengths. 
 It will probably be found on account of the ratio of 
 hull weight to total displacement tending to increase 
 with increase of size, that a minimum cost will be 
 found at some length not yet reached, and that beyond 
 this length the cost of transport will increase with 
 increase of size, even if the draught is unrestricted. 
 To determine this length with any approach to accu- 
 .racy, involves a consideration of the whole question of 
 ship construction. The scantlings, and. therefore, the 
 weights of the structure of the ship, are based upon an 
 assumption of the wave dimensions which the ship is 
 likely to meet. These assumptions are justifiable 
 within the limits of e.xisting ship construction, but. 
 in view of the fact that the waves of the sea will not 
 increase with the size of the ship, it is evident that 
 thex-e will come an increased size of ship to which 
 these assumptions will not be justifiable and. in con- 
 sequence, the scantlings and weights will not increase in 
 the proportions that they have increased for ships limited 
 to the present sizes, when we come to deal with ships 
 very much hirger than present ships This consideration 
 may modify the results of calcuLitions l.iased upon 
 present practice, and therefore it may be i^racticable in 
 designing to assume a weight of hull less than has been 
 taken by using the assumptions at present made, and 
 in consequence the cost of transport in ships of 1.000 ft. 
 long and above may be less than has been estimated. 
 
 Question 2. — Assuming vessels of a given size, in 
 what ratio will increase of speed affect the cost of 
 transport per ton-mile ? 
 
 The answer to this question is different for 
 different sizes of ships. For instance, at 600 ft. the 
 post per ton-mile of running at 17 knots is 63 per cent. 
 
 Coal. 
 
 Length. 
 
 Draught. 
 
 Speed in knots. 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 j 17 
 
 20 
 
 490 
 
 28-25 
 
 1-4 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 600 
 
 34-6 
 
 109 
 
 2-44 
 
 — 
 
 700 
 
 40^3 
 
 1-09 
 
 1-60 
 
 — 
 
 SOO 
 
 46^1 
 
 1-04 
 
 1^68 
 
 5 31 
 
 900 
 
 51-9 
 
 1^28 
 
 1-68 
 
 3 24 
 
 1,000 
 
 57-6 
 
 1-46 
 
 1^88 
 
 3^08 
 
 Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo for 
 6,000 sea miles, oil fuel .being carried for the whole 
 distance. 
 
 Oil. 
 
 400 
 
 28^25 
 
 151 
 
 
 
 600 
 
 :34 6 
 
 120 
 
 2-35 
 
 — 
 
 700 
 
 40-3 
 
 119 
 
 1-73 
 
 5-31 
 
 800 
 
 461 
 
 113 
 
 1-65 
 
 3-30 
 
 900 
 
 51 • 9 
 
 1-36 
 
 1-71 
 
 2-67 
 
 1,000 
 
 57-6 
 
 1-49 
 
 1^92 
 
 2-60 
 
 Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo fn 
 3,000 sea miles, oil fuel being carried for t)ie whul 
 distance. 
 
 OilFuel. 
 
 490 
 
 28 • 25 
 
 •63 
 
 
 
 6()(» 
 
 34 6 
 
 -54 
 
 ■87 
 
 — 
 
 700 
 
 40 3 
 
 •54 
 
 -70 
 
 1-45 
 
 800 
 
 461 
 
 ■53 
 
 -,69 
 
 112 
 
 900 
 
 51-9 
 
 ■63 
 
 ■72 
 
 -99 
 
 1,000 
 
 57^6 
 
 -70 
 
 -81 
 
 ■99
 
 OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS : STEAMSHIP, POST, AND TELEGRAPH. 
 
 93 
 
 Talile (if cost of caiTjing one ton of cargo 3,000 sea 
 miles, coal fuel being earned for the whole distance. 
 
 Coal Fuel. 
 
 Length. JJnuight. 
 
 Speed in knots. 
 
 
 28^20 
 
 14 
 
 ■5 
 
 15 
 
 •HO 
 
 17 
 
 20 
 
 490 
 
 
 
 (iOO 
 
 34^6 
 
 ■43 
 
 
 
 ■71 
 
 
 
 700 
 
 40^3 
 
 ■44 
 
 . 
 
 ■58 
 
 1^29 
 
 800 
 
 46-1 
 
 ■43 
 
 
 
 ■61 
 
 ■94 
 
 90(.) 
 
 51-9 
 
 ■52 
 
 — 
 
 ■61 
 
 ■80 
 
 1.000 
 
 57^6 
 
 ■6 
 
 — 
 
 ■71 
 
 ■84 
 
 As showing the great loss due to restricted draught 
 the following table is given showing cost <if c;in-ying 
 one ton 3,00(( miles, coal fuel lieing carried for the 
 whole distance. 
 
 For vessel 'W x 29' draught and for one 700' x 40 • 3' 
 draught. 
 
 Speed in knots. 
 
 Length. 
 
 Drau 
 
 ^■ht. 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 17 
 
 20 
 
 700 
 700 
 
 29 
 
 40 
 
 3 
 
 •69 
 ■44 
 
 •86 
 •58 
 
 2^73 
 1^29 
 
 Quesiimi 8. — The average rates of speed of the weeldy 
 ■iiiitil steaiiisrs riuining to Aiidralia and South Africa are 
 no>v (ihimt !■'> knots. Could approximuie Jig ures he given 
 of the cost of increasing the speed (aj to 1?}^ knots; 
 (b) to 20 knots ; (c) to 22h knots, mi the assumption that 
 shipoivners were unable to recoup themselves by increased, 
 passage or freight rates ! • If it is not possible to furnish 
 any tipproximatc figures, could an indication be given as 
 to the principal factors which would (a) increase ; 
 (b) decrease cost. 
 
 Before answering this (juestion it should be noted 
 that the figiu'es previously given are comparative and, 
 therefore, aljsolute accuracy is of little importance pro- 
 vided they are comparatively coiTect. To answer this 
 question it will be necessary to obtain approximately 
 accurate figxires and the revenues obtainable. This 
 would involve an inquiry similar to that undertaken by 
 Lord Camperdown's Mercantile Auxiliaries Committee 
 in 1902.* May I venture to call your attention to the 
 additional remarks which 1 made when signing the 
 report of Lord Camperdown's Committee which read as 
 follows : — 
 
 " While I fully agree with my colleagues in the 
 above Report, 1 am of opinion that the terms of 
 reference admit of a much wider interpi^etation of 
 the qviestion than it has received. We have dealt 
 with the ' cost ' of securing ships of stated speeds, 
 
 * [Cd. 1379.] 
 
 but the consideration of the ' manner ' of securing 
 them has been contined wholly to the (luestion of 
 how much money payment iu the form of Admiralty 
 subvention would secure a ship for purely naval 
 purposes. The scheme of subsidies indicated in 
 the Report can, imder existing conditions, only 
 apply to Atlantic ships. But. inasmuch as speed 
 is a desideratmn upon other mail routes, it seems 
 to me to be desirable to can-y this inquii^y further 
 in order to consider the practicability of securing 
 high-speed vessels on such mail roiites. Fast 
 steamers can be run in conjunction with a large 
 fleet of vessels of lower speed with commercial 
 advantage to the fleet as a whole, though indi- 
 vidvially the fast vessels may lose money, and in 
 consequence it seems to be practicable to secure 
 vessels such as are required by the Admiralty by 
 inserting in all future mail contracts (which should 
 iim for a period of ten years) a condition that a 
 definite proportion of the ships of each contracting 
 company should fulfil the Admiralty requirements 
 as to speed and other essentials. The results 
 of this would lie to secure to the public service 
 a well-distrilmted and adequate number of meixian- 
 tile auxiliaries of high speed. 
 
 "The Government business in connection with 
 
 subsidised steamers should, in my opinion, be 
 
 dealt with by a single department and, as the 
 
 chief service to be rendered would relate to mails, 
 
 while the work of the mercantile auxiliaries for 
 
 the Admiralty would be at most an incidental 
 
 matter, except in war-time, it seems that this 
 
 business should be conducted by the Post Office." 
 
 From this it will Ije seen that my opinion at that 
 
 time was that the inquiry should have been continued 
 
 to include the ('ases about which .you are miw asking 
 
 this question. The figures given in the table in the 
 
 report may form a niugh guide to the amount of the 
 
 subsidy in tei-ms of speed, but inasmuch as prices of 
 
 ships and costs of i-unning vary from time to time, no 
 
 approximately reliable data can be obtained without 
 
 the above-mentioned investigation. 
 
 Question 4. — Is the general tendency at present to 
 build faster vessels — (1) mail steamers, (2) liners, and 
 (3) tramps? If so, is it possible to forecast the general 
 rate of acceleration during say the iicct 20 or 30 years ? 
 To what degree will the construction, of faster vessels be 
 determined by the provision of improved harbour 
 facilities {including dry docking), and especially of 
 deejMsr harbours .' 
 
 From the. answers to the preceding questions it 
 will be seen that if speed be increased the cost of 
 carriage will increase. It is exceedingly difficult to 
 estimate what inci-eased revenue comes from passengers 
 on account of increased speed, but it seems not at all 
 improbable that in vessels of 1,000 ft. long and 
 20 knots speed the extra cost of carrymg cargo may be 
 more than lialanced by the extra passenger revenue, 
 liut such vessels would not be built with advantage 
 vuiless the harliours were deepened to draughts cor- 
 responding to the draughts associated with the 
 econi>mic length. 
 
 December 1913. 
 
 (ii) Cables. 
 
 (a) Letter from the Commercial Cable Company in reply to the request from the Dominions 
 Royal Commission for Evidence on the 
 Australasian Traffic, 
 
 Commercial Cable Building, 
 
 63 & 64, Gracechui'ch Street, 
 London, B.C., 
 Sir, November l.Sth, 1913, 
 
 In compliance with your reqviest we hereby 
 give our views on the question of a reduction in the 
 Atlantic proportion of the rate for messages between 
 Australasia and Great Britain. 
 
 In the first place we respectfully b(>g to point o>it 
 that the Atlantic proportion of this rate is 25 per 
 cent, lower than the Atlantic proportion of the I'ate for 
 messages l)etween Great Britain and othei^ parts of the 
 Western Hemisphere. 
 
 The Atlantic cable proportion of the rate between 
 Great Britain and Australia is i)d. per word for 
 
 subject of effecting Keductious in Kates for 
 
 ordinary mes.sagcjs and 4;^(/. for deferred plain lang«age 
 messages with practically no minimum. Tliis was a 
 special itoncession made to Great Britain and her 
 Oversea,s Dominions. This rate is cheaper than any 
 rate iu the woi-ld, and we would invite comparison 
 between that rate and the rate charged liy the Britisli 
 Government for messages between Great Britain and 
 the Continent of Europe over Goverument-omxed 
 cables. Taking France, for example, we find the rate 
 for ordinary messages between Great Britain and that 
 country 2d. per word, with a minimum of 10<7., notwith- 
 standing tlu^ fact that the cable distance is only 
 22 miles from .shore to shore, and each cable contains 
 from four to six working wires, each wire capable of 
 transmitting four messages at the same time 
 
 M 3
 
 94 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION:- — PAPEliS LAID UEFORE THE COMMISSION 
 
 The Atlantic cable between Cauada anil the coast 
 of England is "2,-r>7"2 nautical miles in length, or IIJ 
 times longer than the cable between Great Britain and 
 France, and has only one conductor limited to lower 
 speeds than the Government cables, and capable of 
 transmitting only two messages at the same time. 
 Hence each Government cable between Great Britain 
 and France has an earning capacity more than eight 
 times that of a titans-Atlantic cable for a capital out- 
 lay 112 times less, at lower cost of operation and 
 maiintenance. and yet no proposition is made to reduce 
 the rates over the Government cables. Proliably this 
 is because there is already a large amiual deficit in the 
 Telegraph Department oi the Government, but surely 
 it cannot lie considered reasonable to force the private 
 companies to accept rates which are lower proportion- 
 ately than any of the Government rates and which 
 would force upon the private companies burdens which 
 the Governments are not willing to carry themselves. 
 When the Atlantic cables are interrupted their earning 
 piower is suspended for long periods, to say nothing of 
 the large cost of effecting repairs, pai-ticularly when 
 such repairs have to be made in deep water. 
 
 It surely cannot be reasonalily argued that the rate 
 of !'rf. a word is too high when compared with the 
 rate of 'Id. a woi'd between England and France. The 
 present Atlantic rates, and particularly the rate for 
 Australasian messages, are as low as thej' can lie made 
 if the companies are to be allowed to continue to earn 
 any profit on the capital invested and set aside proper 
 reserves. 
 
 In September 15112 the British and Canadian 
 Postmasters - General demanded reductions in the 
 Atlantic cable rates. Certain reductions were made 
 at that time and tliese reductions also applied to 
 Australasian traffic. We were orally told at that 
 time that unless the reductions demanded Viy the 
 EngUsh and Canadian Postmasters-General were made 
 those Governments would lay a State-owned cable and 
 would then make rates even lower than those demanded. 
 We liave to say that the reductions which the British 
 and Canadian Postmasters-General expect the Atlantic 
 companies to make do not rest on any real luisiness 
 basis, and they have no right to use the power of their 
 Governments to injiue private enterprise. We would 
 respectfully ask that you fully c(_>nsider what would 
 become of the large anioimt i:>f money invested liy the 
 British and Canadian public in Atlantic cable securities 
 and particularly those of the Anglo-American Tele- 
 graph Company and the Direct United States Cable 
 Company. It is true that those companies have been 
 taken over under long leases by the Western Union 
 Telegraph Coiapany, and that the shai-eholders of 
 those companies are at the present time enjoying a 
 guaranteed dividend given by the Western Union 
 Company, but we also invite yoiu- consideration of the 
 possibility that those leases will be invalidated by 
 action of the United States Government on account of 
 their illegality under the Anti-Trust Law of the 
 United States, and if this should come about the 
 Anglo-American and Direct United States Cable Com- 
 panies would then be thl•o^vn upon their own resources ; 
 and we believe those companies could not realise a 
 profit on the present rates, to say nothing of a further 
 reduction in the rates, because prior to their being 
 taken over by the Western Union Company those com- 
 panies did not earn more than about 3 ■8-5 per cent, on 
 their capital. The British public hold about 8.00(1.000?. 
 of the securities of the Anglo-American and the Direct 
 United States Companies, and these investors do not 
 by any means rest secure under the guarantee of 
 dividends by the Western Union Telegraph Company. 
 It would seem that a most pertinent inquiry would l>e. 
 how much is at present being earned by the Anglo- 
 American iind Direct United States Companies in 
 view of the recent reductions in cable rates and the 
 constantly increasing expenses ; this wi>uld show 
 whether those companies could eai'n a fair return on 
 their investment if they should be obliged to operate 
 again their re.spective plants at the present low cable 
 rates. Previous to their absorption by the Western 
 Union, the Direct Company only paid 4 per cent. 
 di\-idend and the Anglo Company an average of only 
 3i per cent. Certainly those were not fair returns on 
 the investment ev^n when the i-ates were not as low as 
 
 now. Since the Western Union regime the rates havs 
 l)een still further reduced, and it would not be 
 surprising if an investigation now made into the 
 operations of the Direct and Anglo Companies, on the 
 basis of independent corporations, would show that 
 they would be compelled to reduce their previously 
 low dividends if not suspend them altogether. This 
 suggestion is made because sooner or later we believe 
 the United States Government will declare illegal, as 
 they are (Judge Parker, of the English Bench, hainng 
 also intimated it) the leases of those two comjianies to 
 the Westena Union. Request has already been made 
 to the Attomey-Greneral of the United States to take 
 legal action to have the leases of the properties of 
 those companies to the Western Union Company 
 declared illegal. If this should come to pass those 
 jiroperties will lie thrown back into the hands of the 
 British investors, and as the old pooling agreement 
 lietween the Anglo. Direct, and Western Union Com- 
 panies cannot legally be restored, then opei-ating 
 their own property under rates made without regard to 
 capital and cost of operation, would show what a 
 disastrous effect the recent rate reductions have had 
 upon those companies, witkout considering further 
 reductions. 
 
 On December ."tth, ll'll, in a speech in Parliament 
 tlie Postmaster-General of Great Britain made the 
 following statement : — 
 
 •■ Under the new regulations of the Telegraph 
 Convention the use of codes has been largely 
 extended, and code telegi-ams can be sent 
 cheaply." 
 
 Again in Parliament, on April 4th. 1912. he said : — 
 •' But moi-e important than any reductions in 
 the partieulai' i-ates to the commercial community 
 at large has been a change which was effected at 
 the last International Telegraph Conference. At 
 that Conference the use of artificial code words 
 was sanctioned. The result of that has been 
 that a single word sent in code across the cable 
 was now able to contain within itself four, five, six, 
 and sometimes as many as seven or eight ordinary 
 words. The commercial commimity had derived 
 more advantage fiom that cliange than from any 
 reduction of rates even as great as those that 
 had been suggested." 
 
 As about 98 per cent, of Atlantic messages were 
 in code there was very little room left for further 
 reduction. Notwithstanding this, the companies made 
 reductions in December 1911 and Januarj' 1912 in 
 the remaining classes of traffic, and these reductions 
 are so great that they speak for themselves : — 
 
 Plain language, deferred - 50 per cent, reduction. 
 
 Press messages, .. - -50 .. ,, 
 
 Cable letters - - - 70 
 
 Week-end letters - - 80 
 
 These reduced rates had Ijeen in effect only a few 
 months when, in September 1912. a further reduction 
 of oO per cent, was made in the press rates, and on 
 January 1st, 1913. a reduction of 25 per cent, was made 
 in the deferred plain language rates. 
 
 We call attention to the fact that in 19o2 the 
 Inter-Departmental Committee on Cable Communica- 
 tion were instructed to examine the i-ates and to report 
 how far they were fair and reasonable, and that Com- 
 mittee, after going into the question most exhaustively, 
 said : — 
 
 "The Atlantic companies provide, imder the 
 influence of competition, an efficient service at a 
 low rate, wliich they have attempted unsuccess- 
 fidly to reduce still furthei'." 
 
 Since the above lejjort was made operating expenses 
 in all large enterprises have increased by vast sums. 
 Therefore, the report is more forceful now than it was 
 then. 
 
 The dispositiiin of the cable companies to meet 
 public requirements is conspicuously sho^NTi in their 
 attitiide towards code language employed to condense 
 despatches and so leduce the charge for cable trans- 
 missions. The Postmaster-General in his parliameutai-y 
 speech of April 4th, 1912, aliove referred to, expressed 
 vei'y cleai'ly and concisely the code feature. Those 
 who use the cable day by day are Tiighly expert in
 
 OVERSEA COMMIINICATIONS : .sTEAMSHIP, POST, ANIi TELEGRAPH. 
 
 9.1 
 
 devising ciphei- codes, which enable them to express 
 many words by one word. Originally these code 
 words had to be selected from dictionaries, and were 
 therefore confined to genuine words. Owing to the 
 complaints that the restriction to genuine words did 
 not give merchants a sufiicient range of words to make 
 up efficient codes, the cable companies have gradually 
 relaxed their rules and have admitted ai-tificial or 
 manufactured words which are supposed to have some 
 resemblance to real words. The extent to which 
 advantage has been taken of this liberality may be 
 judged fi-om the following example of ai'tificial code 
 words, taken from actual cablegrams, alleged to lie 
 pronounceable : — 
 
 ot/.azdpyam. 
 
 fenijaxhay. 
 
 dhexliatse. 
 
 sowifiojli. 
 
 yothgidwe. 
 
 jusas. 
 
 johweretlyk. 
 
 uglusniupk. 
 
 advefeepun. 
 
 heihlgywdu. 
 
 av/.yrjahvo. 
 
 ubljpgobud. 
 
 azacukbac. 
 
 ymfubybfuz. 
 
 tozoyihega,. 
 
 vezkoagonz. 
 
 ugdulpugec. 
 
 nypuaufvig. 
 
 vusufeozud. 
 
 oszapopwex. 
 
 erkieaymoc. 
 
 aukanxevak. 
 
 xetieisaob. 
 
 miezyifcag. 
 
 wecabuvujz. 
 
 dytpsufyl. 
 
 rizylizkeh. 
 
 pysohfufco. 
 
 opcehevder. 
 
 umyzaehmys. 
 
 pmiktanxih. 
 
 ijoxasosoy. 
 
 Each of these so-called words really I'epresents 
 10 figures ; the h) figures are two groups of ii figures ; 
 and each group of 5 figures represents a sepa7'ate code- 
 word and each code word easily represents, on the 
 average, at least 10 plain words. The net result is 
 that each of the alx)ve so-called code words, i-epresenting 
 at least '20 words in plain language, is transmitted at 
 a total cost of 2-5 cents. The cable companies are 
 transmitting these notwithstanding that they are an 
 imposition. Ex-Postmaster-General Buxt<in. in a letter 
 to the London Chamber of Commerce, characterised 
 them as an abuse. 
 
 To transmit artificial code words by ca))le is most 
 difficult. To transmit them with speed is impossible. 
 There is nothing in those words to guide the receiving 
 operator, and the ever-varying electric and magnetic 
 forces of the earth produce in the cables disturbances 
 which interfere seiiously with the cable signals. 
 modifying and even eliminating them, and yet any 
 change or omission of even one letter would change 
 the meaning of the whole word. The result is that the 
 cari-ying capacity of a cable is reduced over 25 per 
 cent. In addition to that, many of the above so-called 
 words have to be repeated. These repetitions place 
 upon the cables a large amount of unremunerated 
 work, and cause delay to other traffic. By reason of 
 all this the earning power of a cable is very greatly 
 reduced, while the expense for operating is increased. 
 
 When it is borne in mind that about 88 per cent, 
 of the ca))le messages are still in cipher code and each 
 code word, as explained above, represents at least 
 20 plain words, it will be seen that cablegrams in code 
 bring the rate down to less than one penny a word for 
 the translated message. 
 
 On April 4th. 1912, the Postmaster-General stated 
 that he adhered to the position he took at the Imperial 
 Conference that a State-owned cable across the Atlantic 
 would undouV)tedly lie ruu at a loss. 
 
 The scheme of a State-owned Atlantic cal)lo is 
 nothing more or less than a proposal to use the tax- 
 payers" money to carry on a business at a loss, ti> the 
 ruin of private cable property already in the Atlantic, 
 aggregating over 20,000,000?. in value. A similar 
 suggestion was made in 1902. and the luter-Dep.irt- 
 mental Committee above referred to reported as 
 follows ; — 
 
 '■ We are not in favour either of the working 
 of cables by the State at a loss or of the 
 subsidizing of private cables on commercial 
 grounds, both of which courses appear to us 
 to burden the general taxpayer unfairly for the 
 benefit of a special class. 
 
 " The laying, working, and maintenance of a 
 cable requires the expenditure of a definite and 
 substantial amomit of capital ; and the cai-rying 
 capacity secured in return is limited. It must 
 not always be assumed tliat an increase of traffic 
 is necessarily a benefit to the company concerned. 
 
 So long as the cable is n(jt worked to its full 
 capacity, increase of traffic, unless accompanied 
 by a heavy increase in working expenses, implies 
 an increase in net revenue. But when the 
 increase is so great as to necessitate the laying 
 of a new cable, the case is different ; and it will 
 be obvious that, at a certain point, a limit is 
 reached beyond which reductions in rates cannot 
 possibly lie made. Even when the cables of a 
 company are fully occupied, messages cannot be 
 carried below a rate which will provide for interest 
 on capital, expenses of working, maintenance, 
 and so on." 
 
 The amount expended by all cable companies for 
 maintenance and repairs is enormous — the total sum is 
 little realised by the public. For instance, it is costing 
 the Commercial Cable Company over 14,l)iliiZ. a year to 
 miiintaiu a repairing steamer at the whai-f, on the 
 Americiin side, in readiness to proceed to sea at short 
 notice, and in addition thei'eto a large amount is 
 expended when the steamer puts to sea to repair a 
 cable. Then there is the expense of repairing the 
 cables themselves. Sometimes a single break costs 
 over 10,000/. for repairs, and often it is necessaiy to 
 put in from 10 to -JO miles of new calde, which increa.ses 
 the maintenance and cost of repair to a still lai'ger 
 figure. On one occasion it cost the Commercial Cable 
 Company 18.400/. for a single repair. In 1908 the 
 company paid 2-5.400/. for the use of other cable 
 repairing ships, and this was in addition to the expenses 
 of the company's own steamer. It costs the company 
 many thousands of pounds each year for the hire of 
 cable repair ships to take care of repairs on the 
 European side. 
 
 The next year, 1909, was full of mishaps, heavy 
 expenditures, and incessant troubles. The following 
 extract from the annual report of the chairman of 
 the Anglo-American Telegraph Company, to the 
 shareholders of that company, held in Londtm on 
 February 4th, 1910, sets forth one of the difficulties 
 which was experienced by the cable companies during 
 that year and which has not been peculiar to that year 
 alone :■ — 
 
 ■• Now, when we talk about this repair of the 
 1874 cable, at the previous meeting I told you 
 we had spent a little more than 1-5.000/. on that 
 repair, and I think I said I hoped we should not 
 have to expend much nmre ; l)ut I am sony to 
 say that my forecast has not been verified, and 
 that we had to expend during the past half-year 
 so much more, that altogether the repau's cost us 
 over 53,00(J/. Now, you may say that is a very 
 large sum to expend upon repairs, but we were 
 most unf jrtunate with rega.i'd to the weather, for 
 when we were grappling in about two miles of 
 water the weather was vei-y )jad, and again and 
 again we failed to pick up the cable ; but at last 
 it was picked up and repaired, and it is now, we 
 believe, as good a cable as it ever was. Of 
 course, we cannot say what may happen, but so 
 far as we can see the cable is working certainly 
 as well as it ever worked. Now. during the year 
 we not only had to repair the 1874 calde. but we 
 also had to repair the 1873 cable. Still, we were 
 much more fortunate in our repairs with regard 
 to the 1873 cable than we were with regard to 
 the repair of the 1874 cable, for the 1873 cable 
 was repaired \vith an expenditure of 11 miles of 
 new cable, while the 1874 cable required 240 miles. 
 The sti-ength of this calile had deteriorated 
 through age, and the ship woiking in water over 
 2 miles deep found it impossible to recover an 
 end until a gap of 240 miles had been made. In 
 the case of the 1873 cable we were fortunate in 
 losing it for only 'S'.i days, but in the case of the 
 1874 cable we lost it for over Id months. This 
 shows you some of the risks attaching to con- 
 ducting cable business, and I do not think that 
 our experience is a solitai-y one. I expect that 
 if other cable companies gave you an account of 
 breakages, and so on. that they would have to 
 give you an acccnnit similar to that which we 
 present to you. Therefore, it shows that the 
 laying and the maintaining of cables is not so
 
 M 
 
 DOMI>'IONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: 
 
 cheap a matter a£ some people think it to be. 
 I wonder whether those who talk so easily of 
 laTins cheap cables — whether it ever entered into 
 their^ndnds as to what it will cost to maiatain 
 them. Now. we know that these breakages have 
 taken place more on account of ti-awlers than 
 from any other cause. You, gentlemen, will no 
 doubt rememl>er that so many repaii-s had been 
 made in our cables off the Irish coast, that we 
 decided in 190G to renew all oui- older cables in 
 that locality; and in consequence in that year 
 80 miles of new cable were inserted in the 1873 
 cable, cutting <iut 12 pre\"ious repairs. In 1907 
 Gl miles in the 1^74 cable were inserted, cutting 
 out 9 previoiis repairs, and in the same year 
 58 miles wei-e inserted in the 1880 cable, cutting 
 out 7 previous repau-s ; so that, but for the trawlers, 
 we mitfht hope to be free from interruptions in 
 that quarter for some time to come. Therefore, 
 this question with regard to the trawlers is a 
 very serious matter. I told you. the last time we 
 met. that a conference had taken place between 
 the Board of Trade and the Admindty and the 
 Fishery Board and the Post Office, and that a 
 commission was appointed to inquire into this 
 matter, and that at this inquiry we proposed that 
 trawlei-s should not be permitted to fish in 
 shallow watei-s off the Irish coast. The Com- 
 mittee did not see their way to agree to this, 
 and so these breaks in our cables, which are so 
 extensive, continue to exist, and these l>reaks are 
 verv expensive to you. and cause, sometimes, a 
 delav in the traffic. We are still in communica- 
 tion'with the Fishery Board on the matter, and a 
 suggestion has been made that an alteration in 
 the form of trawl might prevent these damages 
 to the cables. We sincerely hope that the matter 
 wiU be taken up, because however strong oiu- 
 cables are, these big trawlers with their powerful 
 machinery, going to the depth that they do, 
 proves to us that there are no cables that can 
 stand the attacks upon them. I hope that atten- 
 tion having been called to this matter, and the 
 shareholders bearing this subject in mind, that 
 some stronger steps may be taken to avoid the 
 danger which arises from trawlers in the future." 
 
 There is no reason to expect that the rans- Atlantic 
 cables will lie free from damage or breakage in the 
 tutiue any more than they ha\e t)een in the past. On 
 the contrary, the agencies which inflict the injury are 
 multiplying and extending the field of their operations, 
 and the cable companies must take into account the 
 probabilities that their repair bills and loss of traffic 
 n-ill increase and will not tliminish. One of oiu- cables 
 was damaged in 1909 about 65 miles from our cable 
 landing at Dover Bay, Kova Scotia, and we were in 
 consequence deprived of its use for three months. 
 When making the repair our repairing ship found 
 that for a distance of ih miles the cable had been 
 caught alxiut every 10 fathoms by steam trawlei-s and 
 had" been flattened, twisted, and subjected to great 
 strain. The strongest, newest, and best cables are 
 not immune from the depredations and devastations 
 of these trawlers. 
 
 The Commercial Cable Company has had three 
 cable-ships at sea at one time repairing or replacing 
 disrupted cables. For over six months continuously, 
 during 1909, we had at no time o>u- entire facilities 
 working, there being some break somewhere during all 
 that penod. The expense connected with all this has 
 been enoi-mous, to say nothing of the loss of business 
 on account of not having complete facilities. The 
 Western Union Telegraph Company, we are told, for 
 nearly nine months had both of its cables entirely 
 disrupted and out of use. The direct United States 
 Company, which has one cable in the Atlantic Ocean, 
 has also been interrupted many times. 
 
 In 1910 we completed the expenditure of 300,000/. 
 in our cables, principally in order to avoid, if possible. 
 inteiTuptious by anchors and trawls of fishing vessels. 
 In 191-2 we again expended over 80,u00/. for the same 
 purpose, and we are now engaged in the work of 
 renewiug 100 miles of cable on the Eiu-opean side, 
 which has suffered badly from ti-jwlers and anchors. 
 
 The cost of this renewal will exceed 30,000Z. As further 
 pixiof of the unexpected heavy expenditures to which 
 we are subject we might mention that on the American 
 side we have dining the past year been compelled to 
 make changes in the location of oui- cables which 
 will cost the comjiauy approximately 100,000?. and 
 the company will not derive the slightest benefit 
 therefrom. 
 
 Ar.c! yet iu the face of all this and the great 
 reductions made only a few months ago, it is proposed 
 that the cable companies should futher reduce their 
 rates. The demand is luu-easonable. Qmte a differ- 
 ent poUcy is Ijeing followed by Germany and Fiunce. 
 Thei-e, not only are the present cables rates (which are 
 the same as the rates charged by the companies 
 mentioned above) maintained without complaint, but 
 those Governments pixstect the income of the French 
 and German cable companies by sulisidies or guar- 
 antees. It would seem that the least which the 
 Governments of Great Britain. Canada, and Australia 
 miirht do would be to refrain from impairing the 
 income of the British and American cable companies. 
 
 Furthermore, we quote from the testimony given 
 by the British Postmaster-General on June 15th. 1911. 
 liefore the Imperial Conference.* His testimony clearly 
 points how a logical and justifiable reduction in the 
 rate to Austi-alia could be made without forcing 
 unwarrantable losses upon the cable companies. His 
 testimony is as follows : — 
 
 •' It ciinnot be ui-ged that on the groimd of 
 efficiency the present service is unsatisfactory, 
 because I think it is agreed on all hands that 
 the work is done by the companies with veiy great 
 speed and accuracy. Then the question remains 
 as to whether it is necessary to incur this expendi- 
 ture and possible, or as I think probable, loss in 
 order to cheapen cable i-ates. If no steps were 
 lieing taken with that ol>ject in riew then possi- 
 bly a strong case might l:>e made out or a stronger 
 case at all events than is now made out for 
 laying a State-owned cable across the Atlantic , 
 but in view of the halving of the lates on 
 deferred telegrams which is now agreed to by 
 the companies and in view of the fact that we 
 are now establishing State control over all rates 
 as fast as the landing licences expire, it appears 
 to me that the Governments would not be 
 justified in putting their hands iu their pockets 
 in order to make this large capital expenditure 
 which is. in our view, very likely to )>e unremu- 
 nerative. There is one means. I would suggest 
 to Mr. Pearce. by which the cable rates between 
 this countiy and Australia might be reduced. 
 The rate now by the Pacific route is thi-ee 
 shillings a word, and it is made up in this way : 
 the i-ate from any part of England to Montreal 
 is lOfZ.. and that includes the expense from the 
 town in England, wherever it may be, to the 
 cable, across the Atlantic, and from the landing- 
 place on the other side to Montreal — from 
 Montreal to the Pacific the chai-ge is 2d. — 
 from the Pacific Coast of Canada to Australia 
 the charge is Is. 7rf., but in Austi-alia itself the 
 
 chai-ge is bd 
 
 " The chaise is bd. as compared with the 
 charge of less than Id. a word for inland tele- 
 - grams from any portion of Australia to any 
 other portion. Mr. Pearce tells me the i-ates 
 vary, but in no case are they more thiin Id. a 
 word. If Australia would reduce her charges 
 for handling the Pacific Board's traffic to her 
 ordinary inland rate she would at once reduce 
 the cost of cablegrams between this counti-y and 
 Australia by 4d. a word, which is very nearly 
 equal to the reduction which is contemplated by 
 halving the Atlantic rates." 
 
 The demand for reduced rates Ijetween Gi-eat 
 Britain and Australasia is not justified. Those 
 countries already enjoy a much lower rate than would 
 be possible if the I'ate had to be fixed for a cable 
 service dejiendent on theii' traffic alone. It is the 
 large volume of United States traffic that rendei-s 
 
 * P. 303 of [Cd. 5745],
 
 OVERSfiA COMMtTNlCATKmS: STfiAJlSIIlP, I'OST, AND TELEGRAPH. 
 
 97 
 
 po8sil)le the low trans-Atlantic ratf for the smaller 
 volume of Canadian and Anstralian traffic. The cable 
 rates aci-oss the Atlantic are the lowest cable rates in 
 the world. The companies, and especially this com- 
 pany, have already shown their friendly disposition 
 towards Great Britain, Canada, and Australasia by 
 making a special rate for the traffic between Avistralia 
 and Great Britain. 
 
 The Canada-Australia Pacific cable is now being 
 used freely by United States business concerns at the 
 expense of the British and Canadian and Australasian 
 taxpayers. That cable cost some two million pounds 
 sterling to make and lay, and has already a deficit of 
 596,9552. This cable reduced the charges on America- 
 Australia cablegrams by 33 per cent., and diverted 
 the traffic from privately-owned British caljles to the 
 Government cable sustained liy the taxpayers. 
 
 The willingness of the public to j)ay for rajjid cable 
 service is shown by the fact that at the present time, 
 and day by day, messages between English jxiints and 
 Continental and Eiuvjpean points are cabled from 
 England to New York and fi-om New York back to 
 the Continental European points, at a cost of 2s. a 
 word, although such messages might be sent direct 
 {nmi England to those pt>ints at '2d. a word, the 
 public being willing to pay voluntarily 12 times as 
 high a rate in ordei- to get a speedy ser\ace. 
 
 One shilling, or the 25 cent rate, is a fair rate, yet 
 we charge only iki. for Australasian messages. This 
 Is. rate is no more than is necessary to pay operating 
 expenses and to keep the plant in thorough repair 
 and readiness to furnish the best possible service in 
 point of regularity, acciu-acy, and speed, and to pay 
 a very reasonable return on the money invested. The 
 service rendeied is worth the money and cannot be 
 rendered for less. The only comparison to be made 
 with it is the State-owned British Pacific cable, which 
 in the few years of its existence compelled the tax- 
 payers to increase their taxes to the amount of 
 590,955Z. After 44 years' experience in meeting the 
 demands of the public for a first-class cable service. 
 I am confident that merchants, who depend npon the 
 )-apid and accurate transmission of their messages to 
 carry into effect important and valuable business 
 transactions, would not receive the efficient service 
 from a Government ciible nor from private companies 
 at lower rates than they are at present receiving from 
 the Atlantic cable companies, stimulated as they are 
 by keen competition. 
 
 We have received the suggestion for further 
 reduction in rates with astonishment and disappoint- 
 ment. We had hoped that the concessions made so 
 recently would have been satisfactory. On the 
 contrary, we find that the concessions made have only 
 had the effect of creating an agitation for more 
 concessions. This agitation, however, is that of the 
 Press only. Tlie profits of the newspapers are large. 
 
 nuich larger than the profits from submarine cables 
 and yet the Press are demanding lower cable rates in 
 order that their profits may be increased. 
 
 As to the claim that the poor man wishes to use 
 the cable and wants cheaper rates, we would say that 
 the recent reduction in deferred plain language 
 cablegrams by 64 per cent, was for that very purpose, 
 and yet our statistics show that thei-e is no demand 
 for that kind of service on the part of the poor man, 
 and that the use of this cheap deferred plain language 
 sei-vice is by the commercial houses and by the 
 wealthier classes. The fact is that the emigrant and 
 poor man does not send any cablegrams at all. As a 
 rule he does not even write. The universal complaint 
 is that he does not communicate at all. 
 
 Finally, we would call attention to the fact that 
 there is a wireless service at the present time between 
 (jrreat Britain and Canada at lower rates than those 
 idiarged by the cable companies, and that the British 
 Government have made arrangements for linking up 
 the British Emiiire with a chain of wireless stations. 
 There cannot be any justification for askijig the cable 
 companies to further dejjreciate the large investments 
 in their secui-ities, constant!}' menaced by the com- 
 petition of wireless telegraphy, particularly when the 
 latter is supported by the Government, by making 
 unwarranted reductions in rates foi' the benefit of 
 a few interests or for sentimental reasons. The public 
 requiring a cheap service may make use of wireless 
 communication; those requiring a first-class service 
 rendered by means of large investments and high cost 
 of maintenance are willing to pay the present rates, 
 which are only commensurate with the quality of 
 service rendered. 
 
 We have endeavoured to demonstrate to you that 
 the demands of the Press for lower Press rates are 
 absolutely unreasonable; that the plain citizen dcres 
 not, and will not, use the cable to any extent at any 
 rates ; that the ct)mmercial classes know that they are 
 getting a low rate for the best of service ; that good 
 service can be continued only by fostering present 
 sharp competition, and not by breaking it down by a 
 Government cable or low rates ; that a Government 
 cable mean.s twi) cables for insurance and means a 
 repairing ship, loss to the Governments, disaster to 
 the cable comjianies, and no benefit to anyone except 
 tt) the Press, and not even to them in the long nin ; 
 and that the demand for fiu'ther rediK'tions at present 
 is confiscatory and destructive, and one that we cannot 
 entertain. 
 
 I am, &c., 
 
 GEO. G. WARD, 
 Vice-President and General Mangaer, 
 The Commercial Cable Company. 
 The Secretary, 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission. 
 London. 
 
 (b) Letter from the British Imperial Council of Commerce enclosing a BCemorandum, 
 
 on Telegraphic Communication. 
 
 The British Imperial Council of Commerce, 
 Oxford Court, Cannon Street, 
 London, E.C.. 
 Dear Sir, 15th November 191;!. 
 
 Referring to previous correspondence re the 
 additional matter on the subject of telegraphic com- 
 munii-ation, which was promised by Mr. Charles 
 Charleton when he gave evidence before the Commission 
 on 30th October 1912.* on behalf of my Co\incil, I now 
 enclose a memorandum covering the main reasons 
 which, so far as I can judge. influen(;ed the Congress 
 in passing the resolution in questi<jn. 
 
 I am not in a position to prepare a complete 
 scheme, but hope the memorandum may be of use to 
 the Commission in pursuing their iiKpiiries into the 
 subject, which I observe has already been dealt with by 
 various witnesses. 
 
 1 am, &c., 
 
 CHARLES E. MUSGRAVE. 
 The Secretary. Secretary. 
 
 D(.)minious Royal Commission, 
 
 Scotland House, Embankment, S.W. 
 
 i'p. 84-89 of [Cd. Gal 7], 
 
 E 2us:-iu 
 
 Enclosure. 
 
 Telegraphic Communication. 
 
 Memorandum submitted to the Dominions Royal 
 Commission in support of the resolution passed by 
 the Eighth Congress of Chambers of Commerce of 
 the British Empire. 
 
 The practical advantages which would follow the 
 establishment of an All-Red Mail Ro\ite coincide, to a 
 very appreciable degree, with those which are antici- 
 jjated from the completion of All-British cable com- 
 munication, namely, a chain connecting up all parts of 
 the Empire, no portion of which timches foreign 
 territory. In so far as the latter directly affects the 
 Press, and, through the Press, has a direct and daily 
 influence upon the people, it may. perhaps, be recog- 
 nised as of the fii'st importance. 
 
 Sundry propositions have been put forward. Some 
 of these advocate State-owned or State-controlled 
 cal>les linking uji the whole Empire, whilst others 
 limit their demands to the cables being British-(jwned 
 or controlled. The argument in favour of finishing 
 the work commenced when the Pacific cable was laid 
 
 N
 
 ys 
 
 DOMIXIOXS nOYAL COilillSSlON : I'APICUS LAID BEFOUE THE COMMISSION : 
 
 was considerably ;^t leogtlieued when the last Atlantic 
 cable passed out of British hands. This event was 
 important in that Imperial communication with Canada 
 ceased to be possible without the intervention of 
 foreign companies. 
 
 The fii-st proposition would appear to possess the 
 greater possibilities and to synchronise more with 
 modern ideas of electric communication. The initial 
 opei-ation, and, without doubt, tliat presenting the 
 most serious difficulties, was the construction of the 
 Pacific cable, now an accomplished fact ; the next step 
 to be taken is to lay an All-British Atlantic I'ahle with 
 connections across CJanada which do not necessitate the 
 line traversins^ the State of Maine (U.S.A.). Subsidiai'y 
 to this Comes a modification of the existing arrange- 
 ment by which the trans-Cauada poilion is in the 
 hands of a private i-ompany. In this connection it has 
 been suggested that the line should prefeiiilily be 
 farther from the United States border or it would he 
 easily cut in time of war. The point has importance, 
 though it must be remembered that repairs could be 
 effected also.with much greater speed than in the case 
 of a cable. It would then be necessary to link up 
 Gibraltai'-Bathurst, Bathui-st-Barbados (or Jamaica) 
 and Cocos Island-Ceylon ; and, this accomplislied, the 
 pi-incipal portions of the British Empire could maintain 
 communications without employing foreign cables and 
 without the messages passing over foreign territory. 
 
 First in importance conies the consti-uction of an 
 Atlantic cable. Private enterprise will probably not 
 provide it, and the financial respcjiisiljility must be 
 jointly undertaken by Governments, as with the Pacific 
 cable, in equitaljle proportions. It has been estimated 
 — and the Postmaster-General has accepted that 
 estimate as substantially connect — that an Atlantic 
 cable would cost, at the outside, ot)0,()(JO/. The British 
 Post Office authorities consider, however, that it would 
 be neees.saiy to lay two cables to ensui-e an uninter- 
 nipted service. It is a debatable point, and, in 
 examining it, the existenceof the other Atlantic cables 
 must not be overlooked, coupled with the advance in 
 the science of cable manufacture, cable laying and 
 repairing, &c. Further than this, the case of the 
 Pacific cable is not a complete parallel ; a dujilicate 
 cal)le, if twii cables were ordered at the same time, 
 would probal)ly cost relatively less than a single line. 
 The expert consulted by the Canadian Postmaster 
 estimated a surplus, at the end of the first year's work, 
 of 20,000/. to 30,000/., but with this Mr. Samuel dis- 
 agrees. The result, however, olniously dejiends uixin 
 the rates charged, and one effect of the laying of the 
 cable would be, it is contended, that this country could 
 then have a more effective control of rates. According 
 to the statement of Sir John Barran. M.P., to the 
 Associated Chambers of Commerce of the United 
 Kingdom, there is no reason to believe that the present 
 two cable groups (both American) will ever combine, 
 l)ut this is by no means certain. That the Post Office, 
 through the landing licences, controls rates, is also a 
 statement that needs definite qualification ; it is true 
 rates may not be raised, but any request for reduction 
 would be adjudicated ujjon by the Railway and Canal 
 Commission. This body could not, of course, fix rates 
 which might be unremuuerative to the companies 
 concerned, whereas commercial opinion favours the All 
 British cable for Imjierial reasons even if worked with- 
 out profit. There is no reason to suppose that the All 
 British cable would not obtain in jirocess of time its 
 full share of traffic. It is true that the Pacific cable 
 shows an annual loss, but it is also true that the loss 
 is annually decreasing in spite of the fact that, owing 
 directly to the existence of the Pacific cable, rates 
 from Australia have actually descended from it.s. 4(1. to 
 3s. a W(jrd — and the private companies interested still 
 pay a substantial dividend. This circumstance, in- 
 deed, provides an irrefutable argument in favour of an 
 All-British Atlantic cable. Surely it must be accepted 
 as a general principle that the lower the rates the 
 more general and popular is the use to which the cable 
 is put. The existenceof a State-owned Atlantic cable 
 would give to this country a much greater control over 
 rates. 
 
 The Post Office authorities further insist that as 
 the existing 13 cables stait from, and laud in, British 
 territory they are as completely under om- coaii'ol as if 
 
 they were British-owned. To this, however, exception 
 has Ijeen taken. It may be pointed out that of 
 almost equal importance with the control of a cable 
 during war is the control during a longer or shorter 
 period i^i-evious to the actual outbreak of hostilities. 
 In 1912, the President of the British Joui-nalists' 
 Association was reported to have said that "• Anyone 
 '• who had spent any time in Canada realised the 
 ■' unfortunate influence of the bulk of the news gfjing 
 " via New' York, Chicago, and ^V'ashington. He 
 ■ hoped before long there might be direct communi- 
 ■" cation between London and the self-governing 
 •• Colonies." Direct commmiication affords a guaran- 
 tee that in processof transmission this news would not 
 be intercepted or altered in a foieigu country. 
 
 The Right Hon. Sir Albert Spicer, Bart., MA'., at 
 the Seventh Congress of Chambers of Commerce of 
 the British Empire, at Sydney, in 1HU9, summed up 
 the advantages of cheaper cable communication within 
 the Empire. It would, he said, stimulate inter- 
 Imperial commerce, facilitate social intercourse, :uid, 
 through the Press, lead to a better dissemination of 
 news and thus to a better understanding of Imperial 
 problems. The full benefits made possible by the 
 Pacific cable cannot be realised until such time as the 
 entire British line is completed and the Pacific cable 
 is iKj longer dependent upon American companies for 
 a large portion of the distance between Australia and 
 the United Kingdom. 
 
 The Atlantic section Ls the most important, and 
 the reasons for its constructicm by the State are much 
 stronger than those which can be urged in favour of 
 the furthei' suggestions which have been put foiward. 
 The outlay which would lie required to nationalise, 
 also, cables connecting up India and South Afi-ica 
 would be formidable, especially' in the case of the 
 latter. But State intervention of some kind appears 
 to be essential, for none of the three additional cables 
 pi'oposed is likely to be put in hand liy private enter- 
 prise unaided. The Govei'nments of the Empire, 
 jointly or severally, must either subsidise, guarantee, 
 or own the extra lines which it is proposed should be 
 constructed. As already .stated, lines comiecting 
 Gibi'altar ami Bathurst (West Africa), the latter witii 
 the West Indies, and Cocos Island with Ceylon need 
 to be con.structed (in addition to the Atlantic cable) in 
 order to provide a general inter-Imperial State sy.stem 
 of cable communication. The West Indies-West 
 Africa cable has been advocated as increasing the 
 efficiency of the whole inler-Imperial system. 
 
 The consolidation of the Empire, which, happily, is 
 proceeding aixu-e, is i-apidly giving to the cable system 
 the characteristics of an inland telegraph system. 
 Who would presume to-day to suggest that the tele- 
 graph system of Great Britain could be other than 
 State-owned 'f Certainly it shows a substantial loss 
 annually, but. as in the case of the Pacific cable, the 
 benefits which iiidii'ectly result should outweigh any 
 immediate monetary loss. What commercial people are 
 asking for now is electric commiuiication throughout 
 the Empii'e on precisely the same principle as it now 
 exists in each separate State of the Empire. For 
 strategic and commercial reasons, inter-Imperial 
 telegraph couimunication must not be looked at 
 primarily from the financial aspect, even though the 
 reverse might be true of inland telegraph systems. 
 
 The whole scheme outlined depends fundamentally 
 upon the Atlantic line. We must be in a position to get 
 into timch telegraphically with Canada and Australia 
 (it may be even with South Africa and India) without 
 the possiliility, as has been suggested, of American 
 eavesdi'oppiug or censorshiij. The purchase of the 
 American telegraph system by the United States 
 Government has ah-eady been proposed at freijuent 
 intervals ; ([uite recently (October 1913) it has been 
 announced — and not officially denied — that the present 
 administration in the U.S.A. is contemplating legis- 
 lation which will ultimately involve Govei-nment 
 ownership of the telegraph and telephone lines of the 
 country, and sooner or later this may take place. 
 
 The attitude of the home postal authorities on this 
 matter may possibly be accounted for by the uncertain 
 position of wireless telegraphy. Contracts were some 
 time since provisionaUy entered into with the Marconi 
 Company for a number of statioiiB throughout the
 
 OVEUSKA COMMIIMCM [ONS : |[ARROU[;s. 
 
 00 
 
 British Empire. That it would be a poor economy to 
 expend consideral.le sums of money in laying further 
 cables when the same might, owing to the advance in 
 wireless, very shortly l)e " scrapped," must be conceded. 
 On the other hand, the balance of unprejudiced expert 
 opinion seems to be very decidedly against the pro- 
 baliility of this happening ; the technical difficulties 
 connected with the transmission of messages Ijy wireless 
 make it very problematical whether in speed of trans- 
 mission and in other directions wireless will suj>ei-sede 
 the submarine cable for many years to come. And, in 
 addition, other complications have to be overcome, such 
 
 as the matter of secrecy, highly essential from a naval 
 and military point of view, and, indeed, from that of 
 the general public. Time alone can show what will be 
 the development of wireless telegraphy ; in the interim, 
 the Empire cannot afford to wait on possibilities — 
 even probabilities — but must make the most efficient 
 use of the apparatus which, at the moment, best 
 answers the purpose. 
 
 By order, 
 
 CHARLES E. MUSGRAVE, 
 
 15.11.13. 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 B. — Harbours. 
 
 Memorandum by the Rt. Hon. Lord Pirrie, K.P., on Bevelopment of Harbours from the 
 point of view of Shipowners and Shipbuilders. 
 
 As the Committee is already ac(juainted witli the 
 evidence I gave to the Select Committee on Steamship 
 Subsidies m 1902* as to the desirability of deep 
 approaches to the chief harbours of the Empire, and 
 with the paper read before the Engineering Conference 
 of 1907 on Harbour and Dock Requirements as affected 
 by the Development of Shipping, it will perhaps be 
 almost sufficient if J say that I still adhere entirely to 
 the views then expressed, though, of com-se, some 
 developments and improvements have taken place 
 since the dates in question. 
 
 For example, the Mersey Docks and Harbour 
 Board have formed a revetment on Taylor's Bank, 
 al.>out 2^ miles long, with a view to I'etaining deep 
 water at an awkward point in the channel of the 
 Mersey, apparently with success ; and the Port 
 Authority in Loudon have had presented to them 
 a most interesting report by their Chief Engineer 
 putting forward an admirable scheme of development 
 for that great poi-t ; the work at which, I am sorry to 
 see, is only to be taken piecemeal, and which, at the 
 present rate of progress, I fear will be quite inadequate 
 by the time it is completed. 
 
 The entrance to Port Philip at Melbourne is 
 steadily, if slowly, being deepened, but with regard 
 to two important trade centres, viz., the St. Lawrence 
 and the River Plate, there seems little progress 
 to recoi'd. 
 
 The Commission will quite understand that a 
 condition of affairs which is fairly adequate to-day 
 may be quite inadequate (probably will I^e largely 
 inadequate) in ten years' time. 
 
 With regard to the specific pouits under which the 
 Commission desire to have a classified statement of 
 opinion from me, I have much pleasure in giving the 
 following answers : — 
 
 cheaply obtained in a vessel of deep di"aught, especially 
 in vessels making long ocean voyages. 
 
 From this point of view the draught should not be 
 less than about J^th of the length, and may with 
 advantage be slightly more. 
 
 Question (c). — What developments are likely iti. the 
 size mid draiujht of ocean-going vessels, particularly on 
 long ocean routes such us those to Australia and New 
 Zealand ? 
 
 Answer.— The developments whicli will take place in 
 the size and draught of ocean-going vessels are limited 
 entu'ely by the facilities which can be obtained and the 
 draught of water which prevails in the harbours at the 
 various ports of caU and terminal ports. This applies 
 to all ocean-going vessels, and I may point out that, 
 with the increased draught now becoming available at 
 Melbourne, my firm have recently built by far the 
 largest vessel yet put into the Australian trade, her 
 load draught being greater than can he satisfactorily 
 utilised at the port which governs the departure draught 
 viz., Melbourne, in anticipation of the development 
 of that port being continued. 
 
 Provided that the draughts of water and harbour 
 facilities available at the different Australian ports 
 will permit of a steady increase in the size of vessels, 
 I do not think we would be justified in setting any 
 limit which could be put forward for vessels in such 
 a trade. 
 
 The developments, as I have implied aI)ove, will be 
 entirely governed by the harbour facilities provided, 
 and the Commission may feel assured that shipowners, 
 in order to take the maximum advantage of the 
 port facilities provided, will do their best to ensure 
 that the size of the largest and newest vessels is always 
 such as will take advantage of any development of whicli 
 there is a reasonable prospect being made. 
 
 Draught of Vessels. 
 
 Question (a). — Generally speaking, what is the relation 
 hetvjeeu the size of a vessel a.iid its economic capacity as 
 a freight carrier ? Is it true to say that cost of con- 
 veyance' p>er ton mile diminishes as the draught is 
 increased ? 
 
 Ansicer. — The relation Ijetvveen the size of a vessel 
 and its economic capacity as a freight carrier can 
 hardly he stated in general terms, but it is probably 
 ti-ue as a first approximation that the cost of carriage 
 per ton mile is reduced in the direct ratio in which 
 the draught of vessel is increased, the speed being the 
 same. 
 
 This reduction docs not, however, show very 
 distinctly, owing to a general tendency to increasing 
 speed in freight carriers. 
 
 Question (b). — Generally speaking, does the economic 
 speed of a vessel increase ivilh the increased size and 
 draught, and, if so, to what extent'^ In any case, is a 
 higher speed more cheaply attained in a vessel of deep 
 draught ? 
 
 Ansrver. — There is no question whatever that the 
 economical speed of a vessel increases with increased 
 size and draught, and the gain is greater the more severe 
 the draught restrictions are in any given trade. Also 
 there is no question that a higher speed can be more 
 
 ■See p. 1 13 o£ H.,C. 385 of 1902. 
 
 Sarbours. 
 
 Question (a). — Wlmt effect is the present deepening 
 ol the Suez Canal and the capacity of the Panama, 
 Canal likely to have on the world's harbours, and, what 
 is now the desirable depth for a first-class harbour, in 
 view of probable developments ? 
 
 Ansvier. — The effect of the deepening of the Suez 
 Canal and of the capacity of the Panama Canal, Ijy 
 providing for the passage of lai-ger vessels through 
 those two important waterways than at present 
 engaged on the routes involved, will, of course, by 
 encouraging shipowners to build vessels up to the 
 maximum dimensions which they will pass, increase 
 tlu! demand on the part <if shipping for an im-roased 
 available depth in the principal harlioiu-s of the world. 
 There is no doubt in my mind that the minimum 
 working depth now desirable for a first-class harbour 
 is at least 10 feet, and, in view of the time which it 
 takes to get harbour authi.irities in motion and lo 
 obtain i-esults from them, I think the minimum (le2)th 
 which harbour engineers, or any i-eport on harbour 
 facilities, sht)uld ut>w recommend is at least i'\ feet, as 
 by the time that anything like this depth obtains in 
 many harbours, I am sure there will be a demand for 
 it from the shipping using the ports. 
 
 Question (b). — Within what limits may if be said 
 that the value of a harbour increases as the cube of its 
 depth H 
 
 N 2
 
 100 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — P.\I'i:i!S LAIP l!EKni;E THE rojIMlSSION 
 
 Answer. — As the length, breadth, and depth of 
 modern vessels are increasiui; somewhat more rapidly 
 than the draught, the size of the vessel and the amount 
 i>f work she could do (which is roughh' measured by 
 the product of the length, breadth and depth), will 
 increase more rapidly than the cube of the draught. 
 
 For a harboui', therefore, which is on the shallow 
 side, any increase in its depth must be reckoned as 
 adding to its vahie considerably more than iu pro- 
 portion to the cube of the depth, and the more severe 
 the restrictions on the trade of the present available 
 draught, the greater in proportion is the gain. 
 
 Question (c). — With a Jux^d amount to spend, in 
 vjhat direction is hnrbonr improvement most urgent — 
 increase of depth and improvement of accommodation, or 
 increase of derricks, &c. on wJiarves? 
 
 Ansicer. — If a fixed amount is to be spent on 
 hai'bour improvements, it is a local question varying 
 iu different harbours as to whether increase iu depth 
 or improvement of accommodation for handling pas- 
 sengers and cargo is mostly required, but as it is 
 usually quite feasible to obtain increased local facilities 
 
 for the handling of passengers and cargo. pro\ idcl the 
 ships can get up to the wharves or docks, it is, as :i 
 general rule, more urgent in the tii-st place to increase 
 the depth of the harbour than to provide the detailed 
 facilities. It is no use providing the facilities unless 
 the depth is available, e.;/.. there is one important port 
 in which a large graving dock has been Ijuilt. which 
 has a greater depth of water on the sill than is avail- 
 able in the apjjroach channel, and, consequently, the 
 size of the vessel which can use the <lock is limited by 
 the channel and not by the size of the dock itself. Of 
 course, in some harbours which are already compara- 
 tively deep for the trades, it would be more desirable 
 to improve the facilities than to further increase the 
 depth, but such harbours are the exception and not 
 the rule. 
 
 I trust I have made my views clear to the Com- 
 mission on the points on which they desired them, but 
 if they are not, or if I can give them any further 
 information, I shall be very pleased to do so. 
 
 PIRRIE, 
 December, 191o. 
 
 (See also Memorandum by Professor Sir John Biles, especially Question 4 " Speed," on p. 92,) 
 
 1. 
 
 C— Freight Rates. 
 
 Correspondence with the New Zealand Shipping Co.. Ittd., and the Shaw, Savill, 
 
 and Albion Co., Ltd. 
 
 Royal Commission to the New Zealand Shipping Co.. Ltd.. li>th September litis - - - p. Idd 
 
 New Zealand Shipping Co. to Royal Commission. 2.5th September 1913 - - - - - P- I'"* 
 
 Royal Commission to the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., Ltd.. lOth September 1913 - - - P- llJt) 
 
 The Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co. to the Royal Commission. 25th September 1913 - - - p. 101 
 
 1. We have read these documents, and not* that your 
 
 Commission proposes shortly to publish them, together 
 with a report on the question of freight discrimuiation 
 in favour of foreign goods. This report we shall not 
 fail to give due attention to, when issued. 
 
 We thank you for your eourtesy in giving us an 
 
 opportunity of controverting the statements made by 
 
 .witnesses in New Zealand, and of tendering evidence 
 
 on the subject, but we do not think that any good 
 
 pui-pose would be served by our doing so. 
 
 We ai-e. &c. 
 
 C. J. COWAN, 
 E. J. Harding, Esq., Joint Manager. 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission. 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission. 
 Sib, 19th September 1913. 
 
 I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions 
 Royal Commission to refer to your letter of the 
 10th December 1912,* on the subject of the freights 
 charged on certain classes of goods shipped to New 
 Zealand from the United Kingdom and from Continental 
 ports. 
 
 The Chairman desires me to say that the e^'ideuce 
 brought before the Commission shows that the company 
 is mistaken m thmking that the question of freight 
 disci-imination in favour of foreign goods has been 
 investigated or settled to the satisfaction of all 
 concerned. 
 
 On the contrary, grave dissatisfaction was expressed 
 by witnesses before the Commission in New Zealand 
 at the present state of affairs. Complaint was made' 
 that the practice of charging lower freights on foreign 
 goods is detrimental to British trade, and has in fact 
 the effect of nullifying to a considerable extent the 
 pi-eference accorded by New Zealand to British goods. 
 
 I am to enclose, for the company's information, a 
 copy of the e\'idence and correspondencef on the suliject 
 which the Commission proposes shortly to publish. 
 
 Before reporting on the question, the Commission 
 thinks it proper to bring these facts to the company's 
 notice, so as to afford them an opportunity of con- 
 troverting the statements made by witnesses iu New 
 Zealand, and. if they so desire, of tendeiing evidence 
 with regard to the question. 
 
 I am to add that, as will lie seen from the jirint 
 enclosed, after receiving evidence in New Zealand, the 
 Commission communicated with the company's office 
 at Christchm-ch. asking for informatiijn as to the facts, 
 but was informed that all aiTangements in connection 
 with freights on cargo from the United Kingdom and 
 the Continent were in the hands of the London office. 
 
 1 am. .ic. 
 The General Manager E. J. HARDING. 
 
 New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd. 
 
 SlK, 
 
 2. 
 
 The New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd., 
 138, Leadenhall Street, 
 
 London, E.G., 
 SlE, 25th September, 1913. 
 
 We have received yom- letter of the 19th instant, 
 enclosing copy of the evidence taken before your 
 Conunission in New Zealand. 
 
 3. 
 
 Dominions Roval Commission. 
 
 19th September 1913. 
 1 Hill directed by the Chairman of the 
 Dominions Royal Commission to refer to your letter 
 of the nth December 1912.* as to the freight charged 
 cm certain classes of goods shipped to New Zealand 
 from the United Kingdom and the continent of 
 Europe. 
 
 The Chairman understands that jiaraLrraph 2 of 
 your letter refers to the report of the Royal Com- 
 mission on Shijipiug Rings which was issued in 1909. 
 
 He desires ti> say that it is shown fi-om the evidence 
 given before the Dominions Royal Commission by 
 witnesses in New Zealand that publii' opinion in the 
 Dominion is not satisfied with the present jvisition of 
 aft'aii's. On the contrary, grave coniijlaint was made 
 that, on several classes of goods, lower freight is still 
 charged from foreign than from Britisli ports, and it 
 was stated that the practice is a handicaji to British 
 ti-ade and has, in fact, the effect of nullifying the in- 
 tentions of the New Zealand Legislature in gi\ ing a 
 preference on British goods. 
 
 I am to enclose, for the company's information, a 
 copy of the evidence and correspondencet on the 
 subject which the Commission proposes shortly to 
 publish. 
 
 The Chairman desires, before the Dominions Royal 
 Commission reports on the question, to bring these 
 facts to the Company's notice, and to give them an 
 opportunity of controverting the statements made by 
 the witnesses in New Zealand. 
 
 • See p. 118 of [Cd, 7170], 
 
 T Hp. 10.-)-121 of [Cd. 717U].
 
 EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND OEGANISATION. 
 
 101 
 
 The Commission will also be ^jrepared, should the 
 company so desire, to hear evidence on the matter 
 from any i-epresentative nominated for the purpose. 
 
 I am, &c. 
 The General Manager, E. J. HARDING. 
 
 Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company, Ltd. 
 
 The Shaw, Savill. and Albion Co., Ltd., 
 34-, Leadenhall Street, London, E.G., 
 SiK, 2.Jth September 1913. 
 
 We beg to acknowledge receipt of youi' letter 
 of I'Jth instant in which, while refen-ing to our com- 
 munication of (>th December IHI'J,* you call attenti(m 
 to certain evidence given by witnesses in New Zealand 
 regarding alleged diifereuces in freight rates from 
 foi"eign as compared with British jjorts. 
 
 See \>. lis of [CVl. 7170], 
 
 We have to thank you for yom- coui-tesy in 
 enclosing copy oi the evidence and coiTespondence in 
 question, and for the opportunity given us to contro- 
 vert the statements made to the Commissioners. 
 
 We, however, do not see that we can be of any 
 
 assistance in this mattei', and though we cannot 
 
 reconcile the figures we think it will be better to 
 
 eave the Commissioners t-o draw their own conclusions 
 
 from the evidence that has been placed before them. 
 
 We would Mke to state, however, that the rates of 
 freight charged by us for the conveyance of foreign 
 goods are in no case fixed by us but in every instance 
 are exactly the same as are charged by tlie local 
 foreign shipowner for the conveyance of the same 
 goods by his steamer to the same destination. It is 
 he, not we, who tixes the rate. 
 
 We are. &c. 
 The Secretary. J. A. POTTER, 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission. General Manager. 
 
 III.— EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. 
 
 Letter from the Royal Colonial Institute, with a Supplementary Memorandum by the Empire 
 Trade and Industry Committee on their proposal for the creation of an Empire Development 
 Board and Fund. 
 
 Royal Colonial Institute. 
 NorthumVjerland Avenue. London, W.C., 
 Dear Sib, 22nd Jtdy 1913. 
 
 I AM directed by the Chairman of the Empire 
 Trade and Industry Committee of this Institute to 
 forward to you, with reference to yom- letter of the 
 31st January last.* a supplementary memorandum 
 which has been prepared by the Committee on the 
 subject of the Deficiencies in Existing Steamship 
 Services, kc. which might l>e remedied by an Empire 
 development fund. 
 
 It will be noted in the body of the niemoi-andum 
 that the C'.>mmittee have lieen xinable to reach the 
 question of charges on emigrants. 
 
 Yours. &c.. 
 WM. CHAMBERLAIN. 
 W. J. Glenny. Es(|.. for Secretary. 
 
 Assistant Secretary, 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission. 
 
 Enclosure. 
 
 Supplementary Memorandum by the Empire Trade 
 and Industry Committee of the Royal Colonial 
 Institute on their proposal for the creation of an 
 Empire Development Board and Fund, prepared in 
 response to the request of the Dominions Royal 
 Commission. 
 
 On 31st October 1912 representatives of the above 
 Committee appeared before the Royal Commission and 
 j'ave evidence in support of the Committee's proposal 
 fed. 6.517. pp. 93-1 1 »8). In the course of the pro- 
 ceedings it was suggested and agreed that the 
 Committee -should prepare a further memorandum 
 indicating more precisely some of the existing 
 deficiencies in the Empire's maritime communications 
 (i.e. shipping and telegraph services) which might be 
 remedied throuiili the institution of such a Board and 
 Euud (thill. 107). 
 
 On 31st .lanuary 1913 a letter was addressed by 
 the Royal Commission to the Committee suggesting 
 that in the supplementary memorandum particular 
 attention should be paid to (i) freight conditions; 
 (ii) charges on emigrants; (iii) speed of steamship 
 services and the cost of accelerating them. 
 
 On 28th June 1913 a further letter was addressed 
 to the Committee on behalf of the Royal Commission 
 requesting that the supplementary memorandum 
 should be sent in as early as possible, so that it might 
 be circulated for consideration by the members of the 
 Commission in ample time before arrangements were 
 finally made for heai-ing fiu'ther evidence in this 
 country in the autaimn. 
 
 * Noi priiitcil. 
 
 The Committee have endeavoured to deal with the 
 three subjects specifically suggested by the Conimission, 
 and have added a note on a fourth subject, viz., 
 existing deficiencies in telegi-aphic communications. 
 
 (il Freight Conuitions. 
 
 Part I.— The Need and Method of Public 
 Control over Freight Rates. 
 
 In 1906 the operations of shijjping rings or confer- 
 ences as affecting freight conditions were found to 
 have created dissatisfaction among mercantile houses 
 and large consumers overseas, and manufactui-ers at 
 home. Accoi-dingly the British Government apj)ointed 
 a Royal Commission, including rejjresentatives of some 
 of the Dominions, to inquire into the whole subject. 
 In 1909 this Commission issued Majority and Minority 
 Reports (Cd. 4668). The signatures to the two report* 
 were as follows : — Majority : Arthur (Johen (Chairman), 
 Inverolyde, C. N. Lawi-ence. Hugh Bell. W. Thomas 
 Lewis. A. E. Bateman. E. C. K. Gonner. F. Maddison, 
 Wm. H. Mitchell. Owen Philipps, Oswald Sanderson. 
 Minority : D. M. Barbour. .John Macdonell, R. Muir- 
 head Collins, Henry Birchenough, John Bari-y 
 
 A feature common to both reports is that the 
 question of defei-red rebates, which was specifically 
 mentioned in the terms of reference, is discussed in 
 relation to the larger ((uestion of monopoly in the 
 control of shipping, which was not specificiilly men- 
 tiimed. It seemed to be taken for granted that 
 whatever tended to create a monopoly was to that 
 extent dangerous to the public int(.'rest. Accordingly, 
 lioth the majority and the minority put foi-war^l 
 suggestions for bringing the conferences under some 
 measure of control through the British Board of Ti-ade. 
 
 We now wisli to point out that (1) the t<>ndency 
 towards monopoly in the ownership and control of 
 sliipping has become accentuated since 1909; (2) that 
 the proposals then made for regulating shipping 
 services in the imblie interest have not succeeded; and 
 (3) that the further pi-ogress of the tendency towards 
 monopoly has been accompanied by some of tlie 
 disadvantages in regard to freight conditions which 
 were recognised or apprehended in btith the Majority 
 and Minority Reports of 1909. 
 
 WHien we have dealt with the above three points, 
 we shall then proceed to show how, in our opinion, an 
 effectual safeguanl might be found in the proi^oseil 
 Empire Board and Fimd. 
 
 Having thus dealt with freight (-onditiims generally 
 we shall call attention to an existing deficiency in 
 regard to the Suez Canal, and to potential difficulties 
 in respect of the Panama Canal, both of which might 
 lie met through the operation of the scheme we propose. 
 
 Witli V'.'gard to the question of monoj.oly in 
 sliiiiping. we desire to prefa<'e our remarks iiy ■■mpha- 
 sising the fact that we are not actuated by any
 
 \{\z 
 
 DOMINIONS KOYAI, COMMISSION 1 — PAri'.liS LAID nEFOKK THE rOMMlRSKiN : 
 
 hoatility to shipping coaferences or even to monopoly 
 as, such. We regard the modern tendency to monopoly 
 a-R economic and salutary so long as public supervision 
 keeps pace with its growth. Moreover, we think that 
 the mergers of British shipping companies, to wliicli 
 we are about to call attention, have been a prudent 
 devolopiuent in view of the growing financial strength 
 of foreign shipping companies, just as the adt)ption of 
 tlie Dreadnought t_ype of battlesliip bj- Britain com- 
 pelled foreign Powers to follow suit. In commerce 
 combination induces counter (combination. But the 
 idtimate tendency always is for the rival combinations 
 U) work in unison, as illustrated by the shipping 
 conferences which include foreign lines. When this 
 takes place on an iiiternatidual scale national interests 
 are liable to suffer, unless vigilantly protected by the 
 State. But while recognising the necessity of public 
 supoi-visiou we share the feeling of national pride that 
 British sliipping companies are still leading the world 
 in till' niodeni development of what has always lieen a 
 vital British industry. 
 
 (1) Growth of TeiuleiHij to Moiioi>olij in S)iippiii(j. 
 
 In 190(!, when the Royal Commission was appointed, 
 tlie amylgamation of shipping companies into large 
 combines under single management had already begun. 
 Public attention had been calleil to it liy the spec- 
 tacular launching in 190:2 of the Intel-national Mercantile 
 Marine Company of New Jersey, some <_>f the consti- 
 tuents of which were themselves the outcome of 
 previous amalgamations. 
 
 In Appendix A. attaclied Iiereto, particulars are 
 given of some of the more important mergers, both 
 British and foreign, up to tlie present time, in order to 
 illustrate the continued growth of tliis tendency. 
 
 We may here note that, whereas in the case of the 
 British mergers no effective public control has been 
 established, in some of the foreign instances sucli 
 control is alveadj' est;iblished. 
 
 For example, in the United States there is the 
 Sherman Act ; though the principle of that measure, 
 being directed against monopoly as such, is not one 
 which we ourselves regard witli favour. 
 
 Australia and Canada also have either adopted or 
 had imder consideration legislation for controlling the 
 operati(ms of nionopohes as affecting public interests. 
 
 In Germany the system of through bookings from 
 the inland point to another point overseas enables the 
 Government, as owner and manager of the railways, to 
 exercise control over ocean freight rates, 
 
 111 ( rermauy, again, the Government generally allows 
 a lower railway rate on goods for export than on goods 
 for homo consumption. Presumably the Government 
 would not do this were it not assured that the sliipping 
 company would not take advantage of these concessions 
 to increase the freight rates. In this way it may be 
 said that the German Government controls freight 
 rates. 
 
 AVe understand that in some coiuitries the tt>rms of 
 bills of lading, and of through bills from point to 
 point, are on a uniform biisis. att'ording some protec- 
 tion to traders against certain methods of indirect 
 discrimination. 
 
 (•1) Failure of 1909 rroposids of Control . 
 
 The remedial proposals of the majority were 
 briefly; (I) that merchants in the various countries 
 affected should form themselves into associations, the 
 areas of associatiim being not less than the whole of 
 the ports served by conference lines in any country ; 
 such associations to be entitled to "recognition" by 
 the Board of Trade when deemed by that body to he 
 properly representative. These assoi'iations to meet 
 the conferences with a view to friendly adjustment of 
 disputes as they arose. In the event of failure to 
 settle any point of dispute the Board of Ti-ade to 
 .ippoint a conciliator on the applicati<m of either party, 
 nr an arbitrator on the application of both parties. 
 Further, in cases where the Board of Trade decided 
 that •• important National or Imperial interests were 
 affected '" it cimld appoint its own inquirer, whose 
 report it w(mld have di.scretion to lay befcn-e Parlia- 
 ment, and in considering whether to do so it should 
 " have regard to any representation made by any 
 
 Colonial Government interested," They further recom- 
 mended that all conferences should be required to 
 deposit with the Board of Trade copies of (a) all 
 iuter-companv agreements; {b) all rebate circulars; 
 (c) all agreements with " recognised " associations of 
 merchants ; (d) all tariff's of rates and classificationg ; 
 whitdi. further, should be published. 
 
 The minority, desiring to strengthen the above 
 proposals of control, recommended as amendments : 
 ((() that the Board of Trade should have discretion to 
 recognise any representative association of merchants, 
 \vithout the condition that the association should cover 
 the whole of a conference area ; (()) that the Board 
 of Trade should " be free to direct an empiiry, with 
 " full jiowers as to bringing evidence and the produc- 
 ■ tioii of di>cuineiits when it appears that important 
 • public interests (including those of consumers and 
 ■• producers) are affected by the action of Shipping 
 '• Ct>iiferences ; or upon the representati(.)ii of Colonial 
 " Governments that such an entpiiry is expedient." 
 In this connection the minority remark: "We very 
 " strongly rely upon the effect of full publicity, which 
 " has not hitherto existed ' ; (c) that the Board of 
 Trade report should in all cases be laid promptly 
 before Parliament, but with care taken not to divulge 
 iiifVirmation useful to foreign competitors ; [d) that 
 an annual return ou the operations of shipping con- 
 ferences should be presented to Parliament. 
 
 The following ([uestions and answers in the House 
 of Commons indicate the result to date (iJHth June, 
 i9lo) of the above proposals : — 
 
 Major Akcher-Shee. M.P., D.S.O. : 
 
 Q.—{\) To ask the President of the Board of Trade 
 if he will state in what cases have the services of the 
 Board of Trade been reciuisitioiied for the settlement 
 of disputes as contemplated by the Royal Commission 
 on Shipping Rings. 
 
 Rt. Hon. S. Buxton, M.P.. President 
 of the Board of Trade : 
 
 A. — (1) Although isolated complaints have been 
 made to the Board of Trade as to rates charged liy 
 Sliippiiig Conference Lines, no requisition has been 
 made for the ser\ices of the "Board in the settle- 
 ment of anj' dispute of a general character between 
 merchants and Conference Lines. 
 
 Q.—{2) To ask the President of the Board of Trade 
 if he will state what associaticnis of merchants have 
 been registered to dale, in accordance with the recom- 
 mendation of the Report of the Royal Commission on 
 Shipping Rings, made in 1909. 
 
 A. — (2) No associatiims of merchants have been 
 registered by the Board of Trade for the purposes 
 contemplated by the Royal Commission on Shijiping 
 Rings. 
 
 Coiitiiuied I)igMiti!<fuetioii. — Clearly, therefore, the 
 remedial proposals of 19(19 have failed of ett'ect. 
 
 Nor can it be maintained that the failure has l)eeu 
 due to a happy alisence of grievance iu respect of freight 
 conditions. Subsequently to 1909. the position in 
 South Africa liecame so acute that the Union Govern- 
 ment Ijrought the (piestion of shipping rings to the 
 attention of the Imperial C(mfereiice in 1911 (Cd. 5745, 
 p. o7'2 et seq.). On this occasion. Sir D. de Villiers 
 Graaff, speaking for the Union Government, argued 
 forcibly that the effect of the monopoly had lieen to 
 restrict the develojunent of South Africa and to 
 hamper the growth of trade within the Empire. Since 
 then there have lieen the new Post Office Act, the new 
 mail cimtract, and the new South African Freiglit 
 Agreement, but sufficient time has rot 3'et elapsed 
 for the ultimate effcet of these new arrangenieuts to 
 1)0 judged. 
 
 It may here be noted that in the South African 
 Agreement there is a clause which provides that 
 disputes between the S^>uth African Merchants Com- 
 mittee and the steamship lines, shall, in the last 
 resort, " be submitted to arbitration. " While the need 
 of an arbitral authority is thus recognised, no such 
 authority at presents e.vists. Further, it is evident 
 that neither the producer nor the consumer, who are 
 the parties ultimately affected, is to be considered at 
 all in these arrangements.
 
 EMPIRE BEVELOP.MKXr AND ORGANISATION'. 
 
 ]03 
 
 In Onnada, likewise, dissatisfaction lias been ex- 
 pressed with regard to freight conditions on the 
 Atlantic, the inward traffic lieing controlled by the 
 West-bonnd Conference. 
 
 In Appendix B we give extracts from recent 
 Canadian and British papers illustrating this dissatis- 
 faction, and also extracts from the report of H.M. 
 Trade Commissioner for Canada. Mr. A. Hamilton 
 Wickes. and his predecessor. Mr. Richard Gi-igg ; a 
 vefei-ence to this subject also occurs in tlie last I'epoi't 
 of H.M. Trade Commissioner for New Zealand, in 
 Appendix D. 
 
 Causes of Failure. — The weakness of the liM)<t pro- 
 posals appears to have lain in the following circum- 
 stances : — 
 
 (a) The merchants, on whose initiative the remedy 
 was to depend, are not the people who are 
 ultimately or principally injured by excessive 
 freight rates or other defects in tlie trans- 
 poit .sei'vices. Generally speaking, the 
 merchant's interest is identical with that of 
 the sliijiowner. to whom it is a matter of 
 comparative iudiifereiice whethei' producers 
 and <'onsumers are making a satisfactory 
 profit or not, so long as production and 
 consumption are not palpably retarded on 
 the whole. It should lie borne in mind 
 that under our present systeiii of trade the 
 merchant can generally buy fon^ign goods 
 just as easily as Bi-itish goods if the freight 
 oil the fcjrmer is more favourable than on 
 on the latter. It seems to lie essential that 
 the remedial machinery should be such as 
 may be set in motion, not only by shiii- 
 <iwiiers or merchants, liut ei4.nally by the 
 jiarties ultimately atfected. viz.. producers 
 and consumers, instead of depending on 
 action by any middle party. 
 
 (h) 111 any case, there is always the great difficulty 
 of combining any parties who are generally 
 trade rivals into really (Comprehensive 
 associations. 
 
 (c) Overseas there may be some lack of confidence 
 ill the efficacy of intei-veiition liy the British 
 Board of Trade, a body which oversea.s 
 may be felt to represent the interest of the 
 United Kingdom only. 
 
 ('^) Diaadvaiitaf/es apprehended from moiuipnhj in 
 
 li)09 couUrine to tie realised. 
 Of various dangers recognised by the Royal 
 Commission in 1909, the most important to Empire 
 development wer"- — 
 
 {(() "Excessive"" or ■■unfair"' freight rates. 
 (()) Preference to foreign trade. In this connectiim 
 there was some difference of opinion as tvi 
 whether the Conference principle of equal 
 rates from British and Continental ]ioi'ts 
 was not in itself a preference of that kind 
 (Cd. 4.6(;;8. pp. 41, 111). 
 
 (a) Excessive or Unfair Fi-eight Rates. 
 "We desire to emphasise that our own standpoint is 
 that of the Minority Report of 1909, in so far as tlie 
 signatories (jf that report insist (p. 98) that producers 
 and coiisuiners. rather than shipowners or merchants, 
 are the parties specially and really interested in this 
 matter. The purpose of our Committee is always 
 Empire development, which depends fundamentally 
 on the mutual satisfaction of producers overseas and 
 consumers in Britain, ormcc versa. The interest of the 
 producer is to obtain the highest price, and of the 
 consumer to pay the lowest. An interest common to 
 both is. therefore, that the price should n<it be reduced 
 ut the (me end. or increased at the other end. by ahighi^r 
 charge for transpoit than the lowest cost at which it 
 is possible for that service to be efficiently rend(?red, 
 due regard being had to the living wage of British 
 seamen and to a fair return on capital necessary to the 
 business. 
 
 From our standpoint, therefore, freight rates must 
 be adjudged "excessive," though not necessarily 
 " unfair,"" whenever they appear to exceed this neces- 
 .sary miniuium, because any such excess can only 
 
 operate as a discouragement to productive industry, 
 by limiting its profits, eitliei^ in Britain or in the 
 Dominions or in lioth, having r(^gard to the existing 
 conditions of world competition which govei'n prices. 
 
 In Appendix C we exhibit a chart showing the' 
 fluctuations in mean yearly freight i-ates since 19(12. 
 being the year of the Morgan c(jnil)ine of Atlantic 
 companies. The level lately reached was the highest 
 for 20 years. The .shipping journal ■■ Faiipl.ay "" 
 (20fh December 1912). from which we have borrowed 
 the figures, points out the great variety of causes 
 which are reflected in these fluctuations, and which 
 make it impossible for us to ascertain with any exacti- 
 tude to what extent the rapid nse in recent years is 
 attnbutable to the eliminati(m of competition through 
 the growth of mon(jpoly. But it should be borne in 
 mind that the first (jbject of large combines is always 
 the maintenance of freight rates at a high level. 
 
 The same journal states, however, that ■•vessels 
 '■ owing to their increased size and better despatch can 
 ■■ now carry cargo at a much lowei- rate to leave a profit 
 ■■ than vessels could do thirty years ago,'" That is to 
 say, other things being e(pial the tendency of freight 
 rates should be downwards rather than upwards. 
 
 Ill the same way, other things being e(iiial. the 
 effect of the recent mergers ought to l)e to reduce 
 freight rates, owing to the saving in the expense of 
 management and elimination of waste, &c., which 
 constitute the economic, justification of mv:)iiopoly. 
 
 But if these economies have been effected, it is not 
 clear that the benefit has reache4 consumers and 
 producers. In some cases, at least, the economic 
 saving ajipears to have been m(jre or less counter- 
 balanced by an inflation of capital in connection with 
 the process of merger, increasing the amount of revenue. 
 i.e., of earnings, necessary for paying interest or 
 dividends. To effect a merger it has sometimes been 
 necessary to buy out competitors on practically their 
 own terms. The excess of capital rerjuired for this 
 purpose has been obtainable by reason of the increased 
 power of a large combine to carry out the avowed 
 jjolicy of exacting the highest rates that the traffi(c 
 will bear (Cd. 4t)(i8. p, 40) — a policy which is opposed 
 to that of Empire development. If desired, we shall 
 be able to furnish one or two striking examjiles of this 
 inflation of cajiital due to mergers. 
 
 The following extract from the •■ Financial News " of 
 9th July 1913 is of interest, as showing the latest 
 p(>siti(m in regard to the tendency of freight rates and 
 the finance of shipping companies. 
 
 '• During the past few weeks the freight markets 
 have not altered to any material extent. At present, 
 rates are well maintained in most directions, with a 
 general tendency towards slightly higher figiu'es. 
 Owners have got through June much better than was 
 at one time expected, and when July is over there 
 should be a brisk iucpiiry for tonnage, as arrangements 
 will then be in progress for moving the new crops. 
 In this connection it may be mentioned that the 
 cargo-boat companies are now transferring larger sums 
 to depreciati(m and reserve tlian they have hitherto 
 done, so that when the iiievitalile period of depression 
 ensues they will be in a miudi better position to deal 
 with circumstances which may then arise. The 
 accounts of 29 oi these concerns that have been issued 
 since January last show that, while profits have risen 
 from 1.168.42.1)/. to 2.474.641/,. the amount set aside 
 has increased from 604.956/. to 1.487.721/. and the 
 average dividend from 6 ■ 1.1 to l.'>27 per cent."" 
 
 (/)) Preference to Foreign Interests. 
 
 By the established poli(cy of the shipping con- 
 ferences an e(piality of rates is supposed to »be 
 uiaintained fnmi United Kingdom and C'(mtinental 
 ports respectively to overseas markets. There always 
 has been a widespread feeling that this ecpiality is in 
 itself an luidue discrimination against British trade, 
 because the supremacy of this coiuitry in shipbuilding. 
 &c., ought to enable her carrying trade to be c(mdiicted 
 more cheaply than that of other countri(»s. But, 
 without going further into that (piestion, we have to 
 pi)int out that there continues to be cases in which the 
 riiteb are lower from Continental than from British 
 ports, to the manifest detrimeut of British trade. 
 
 X 4:
 
 104 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — PAPERS I.AlD REFORE THE roMMISSION 
 
 We have also t<^i point out that even where the 
 freight rates are nominally e<iual, (.'lass for class, a 
 certain description of goods may be assigned to a 
 cheaper class on the Continent than in Britain, so that 
 the difference in the method of classitication sometimes 
 acts as a preference to foreign goods. 
 
 In Appendix D we give examples of these two 
 forms of discrimination against foreign trade. 
 
 [In this connection we would call special attention 
 to Numbers 3, 4. •"> and 6 in Appendix D, which 
 apparently indicate a tendency to counteract the 
 opersition oi the British preference in Dominion tariiis 
 by means of discrimiuatc->ry freight rates in favour of 
 foreign goods. In one instance (Appendix D fi) we 
 find British manufacturers apparently asking a 
 Dominion Government to grant a tariff preference for 
 the particular purpose of offsetting the foreigner's 
 undue advantage in respect of freight rates.] 
 
 (4) Tlie Remedy Proposed. 
 
 We agree with the Royal Commission of 1909 that 
 the conditions produced by the growth of the con- 
 ference system are such as to render it desiraljle that 
 those interested should have the opijortunity of appeal 
 to some official body. The mere existence of this 
 opportunity, even were it seldom exercised, would tend 
 to act as a check upon the conferences, aud to give a 
 confidence now lacking to shippers, manufacturers, and 
 producers and consumers generally, who now feel that 
 they are powerless to protect their own interests in the 
 face of these modern coml)inations of shipowners. But 
 the British Board of Trade, as we have pointed out, is 
 not the right body for this purpose in the British 
 Empire, because it is not inter-State. We submit 
 that our proposed Empire Board would be in a stronger 
 position than the British Board of Trade, because 
 (u) it would be ojien to representatives of all the 
 principal Governments in the Empire, instead of 
 representing one Government only ; and {b) if entrusted. 
 as we have suggested, with control of the mail contracts 
 of the Empire, and having a certain fimd conditionally 
 available for the improvement of shipping services 
 generally, it would possess a leverage lacking to the 
 British Board of Trade, and more weight would thus 
 attach to any public reports it might make on matters 
 in dispute between shipping companies and the jniblic. 
 
 As compared with the proposals of 1909 our pro- 
 posal has the further merit that (c) producers and 
 consumers in any of the countries would have the 
 opportunity ot moving their own Government, through 
 the ordinary departmental channels, to bring their own 
 view of any gi-ievance to the attention ot the board 
 instead of depending on the initiative of merchants or 
 others whose interests might not be identical i.requally 
 cogent. We now suggest that it would suffice, for a 
 beginning at least, if in connection with questions of 
 freight conditions the pi-oposed l)oard had the same 
 duties of inquiry and report as were recommended by 
 the Minority in 1909 (see above, p. o), except that the 
 reports and returns of the lx)ard should be laid 
 before the Dominion Parliaments concerned as well as 
 the British Parliament. Such a duty would fall 
 within the scope of the functions we have already 
 proposed that this Ixiard should exercise, and which 
 included the following : — 
 
 '■ (t!) To watch and report upon the interests of 
 trade within the Empiri' as affected by 
 maritime communication ; and in case of 
 injuiious developments to take or recommend 
 suitable action. " 
 
 '■ (7) To report at the request of any participant 
 Government upon any question concerning 
 the operation from any standpoint of public 
 interests, of any of the maritime services of 
 the Empire, i.e., steamship services, whethei- 
 mail or cargo, and telegiuph seiTices whether 
 cable or wireless." (Cd. 6517, p. 97.) 
 
 Relying, to begin with, upon the efficacy of publicity 
 of the board's i-eports, we do not suggest that the 
 board should be empowered to fix rates or otherwise 
 dictate to the shipping companies. But we cannot 
 concur with the opinion expressed by the majority in 
 19U9 ihat (!>. 83) •■the grant of such power could only 
 •• be justified if th(! State were i)repared to grant 
 
 •■ shipping conferences statut<iry monopolies or 
 •■ guarantee their profits." In our view the need aud 
 justification of State intervention consists in the 
 circumstance of \irtual monopoly existing (whether 
 statutory or not) such as induced the British Govern- 
 ment to assume control over railway rates. 
 
 Part II. — Canal Dues. 
 (1) Siw'2 Canal. — So far we have considered the 
 (juestion of freight conditions in relation only to the 
 pioposed board as a tribunal of appeal in case of 
 dispute between the public and the shipping companies, 
 particularly with a view to meeting fhe dangers 
 inherent in the tendency to monopoly. 
 
 The other aspect of the proposed board is that of 
 an inter-State liody charged with the administration of 
 a certain fund for (primarily) the improvement of the 
 maritime communicaticms of the Empire (Cd. t!517, 
 p. 97. Nos. (1) to (.5)). We now desire to suggest that 
 one object to which such a fund might be usefully 
 applied would be the relief, under certain cimditions, 
 of British shipping from the Suez Canal dues, and 
 possibly, hereaftei-. the Panama Canal dues. 
 
 The ca.se of the Suez Canal is excejitioiial, inasmuch 
 as the British Government is a large shareholder in 
 the canal company, and in that capacity draws a 
 dividend at the rate of above oii per cent, on the 
 pui'chase money. The amount thus received by the 
 British Government last year was l,318,tJ85/, It has 
 loug been felt that the tolls which produce these huge 
 dividends are obviously excessive, and that in justice 
 to those British subjects who tbrectly or indirectly 
 pay these tolls the British Government ought to apply 
 part of the dixidend to reduction or refund of the tolls 
 on British shipping. This reform could be accom- 
 plished by transferring to the Empire Board aud Fund 
 whatever portion of the revenue from the canal shares 
 the British Parliament might determine. 
 
 The past histiiry of the question maybe summarised 
 as follows : — 
 
 At the Imperial Conference of 1907, it was strongly 
 urged l)y Sir Joseph Ward, as Premier of New Zealand, 
 that something shoxdd be done to remove or reduce 
 the tolls on British shipping using the canal, in order 
 that this shorter route might become available to some 
 of the vessels, especially cargo steamers, which use the 
 longer and more dangerous i-outes, via Cape Horn or 
 the Cape of Gt>od Hope, for the sake of economy. He 
 suggested State repayment of tolls, to which he said 
 that New Zealand would willingly i-imtribnte. The 
 idea was supported by Mr. Deakin. as Premier oH 
 A\istralia. and was approved in principle by Mr. Asquith, 
 as Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Llovd George, 
 as President of the Board of Trade. 
 
 The question continued to l)e m-ged on the 
 attention of the British Government by the Australian 
 Government . 
 
 At the Imperial CJonference of 1911, a resolution 
 was brought forward by the Australian Premier 
 (Mr. Fisher), and was eventually passed in the 
 following form :-- 
 
 •• That this Conference is of opinion that the 
 dues levied upon shipping for using the Suez 
 Canal constitute a heavy charge and tend to 
 retard the trade within "the Empire, and with 
 other countries, and invites the Government of 
 the fruited Kingdom to continue to use then' 
 influence foi- the purpose of obtaining a substantial 
 reducti<m of the present charges." (No. XX'\'I. 
 of 1911.) 
 
 In moving his resolution Jilr. Fisher mentioned that 
 in the case of one large shipping company the amount 
 paid in tolls for the year exceeded the amount paid in 
 wages, and that in the case of the vessels pei-foriniug 
 the mail contract the amount paid in tolls exceeded 
 the mail sulisidy. 
 
 In the course of the discussion it was pointed out, 
 on behalf of the Foreign Office, that the British 
 Govei-nment, although a large shareholder in the 
 canal, had only about one-tenth of the representation 
 on the board, and thus could not force substantial 
 i-eductions as desired. 
 
 The following table shows the progress of reduction 
 in the rate of transit dues per ton up to the present 
 time : —
 
 EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. 
 
 105 
 
 Rate per Ton 
 in Francs. 
 
 1869 
 1874 
 1877 
 1879 
 1881 
 1882 
 1883 
 1884 
 1885 
 1893 
 1903 
 1906 
 1911 
 1912 
 1913 
 
 10 
 
 13 
 
 12.50 
 
 12 
 
 11.50 
 
 11 
 
 10.50 
 
 10 
 9.50 
 9 
 
 8.50 
 7.75 
 7.25 
 6.75 
 6.25 
 
 Oui' suggestion is that an allowance on account of 
 toUs might be granted out of the Empii-e Fimd to 
 British ships, the amount being based, not on tonnage, 
 but on goods actually carried. We woidd limit the 
 arrangement to specified classes of goods, bond fide 
 the produce or manufactui-e of the Empire and 
 destined bond fide for consumption within the Empire, 
 and perishable food-stuffs in p;u-ticular. 
 
 A further condition should be that the rates of 
 freight on the specified classes of goods should be 
 approved oy the Empire Development Board, and 
 should not be increased without its sanction. In this 
 way we feel that encoiu-agemeut might be afforded to 
 the production of food in Australasia, e.g., the butter 
 industry, which has to meet the severe competition of 
 Danish producers as well as of m.argarine and such 
 products in the British market. 
 
 (2) Panama Canal. — It is not yet clear what will be 
 the outcome of the present dispute with the United 
 States regarding tolls on the Panama Canal. But in 
 view of the possibility of subsidised foreign competition 
 in the canying trade by this new route, we suggest 
 that the Empire would be in a stronger position if 
 there were brought into existence a board and fund 
 of the kind we propose, which could organise counter- 
 vailing measui'es in case of discrimination against 
 British trade. 
 
 (ii) Chaegks on Emigrants. 
 
 The Committee report that in the time available 
 they have been unable to reach the question of charges 
 on emigrants. Any obsei-vations which they might 
 desire to make on this subject would have to be 
 submitted at a later date. 
 
 (iii) Speed of Steamship Services and Cost 
 or Acceleration. 
 
 We take it as axiomatic that the interests of 
 Empire development demand the speediest pi-acticable 
 trans])ort of mails and passengers between the various 
 countries of the Empire, and especially between the 
 Dominions and Britain. From this standpoint there 
 is no ocean mail service connecting Britain and the 
 Dominions which ought not to be accelerated if an 
 Empu-e Fund were available for such piu-poses. 
 
 If, however, we confine om- attention to services 
 which are palpably behind the felt needs of the present 
 time, we would single out the following : — 
 
 (1) Britain-Australasia, including Canada-Aus- 
 
 tralasia. 
 
 (2) West Indian services, including : — 
 
 (a) Britain- West Indies. 
 (6) West Indies inter se. 
 (c) West Indies-Canada. 
 
 (1) Britain-Australasia. 
 
 It has long been felt that the existing interval of 
 34 days between Britain and New Zealand {via the 
 foreign San Francisco route), and 30 days between 
 London and Melbourne requires to be shortened. 
 
 In relation to Empire development, the fact that 
 the journey out and back takes practically 3 months 
 impedes British investment in Australasian enterprises. 
 The number of British capitalists visiting Canada with 
 a view of taking part in the development of the country 
 E 20S30 
 
 is much greater than the number visiting Australia or 
 New Zealand, partly owing to the difference in the 
 length of absence which is involved. 
 
 From the political standpoint, again, the length of 
 journey is an obstacle to the now accepted policy 
 of frequent consultation between Ministers of the 
 respective Governments. The recent developments of 
 the naval policies of the Canadian and Australasian 
 Dominions are such as to emphasise the need of a fast 
 mail and passenger service on the Pacific Ocean, 
 in order to facilitate co-operation between these 
 Governments. 
 
 Since the discussion of the All-Red project at the 
 Imperial Conference in 1911, something has been done 
 by the Canadian Government to improve (ho Atlantic 
 sei-vice and, in conjunction with New Zealand, to 
 improve the Pacific service. 
 
 But in our opinion the actual present needs of the 
 situation will not be satisfied until New Zealand is 
 brought by this AU-Red route within three weeks of 
 Britain as advocated by the Premier of New Zealand 
 in 1911, with con-esponding reductions of the intervals 
 between Australasia and Canada and between Canada 
 and Britain. 
 
 The time-table outlined by the Premier of New 
 Zealand was as follows : — 
 
 Liverpool to Halifax or Quebec 
 
 about - - - - - 4 days. 
 
 Halifax or Quebec to Vancouver - 4 days. 
 Vancouver to Wellington or Auck- 
 land . . - - 
 
 Wellington to Sydney 
 
 - 12 to 13 days 
 
 20 to 21 days 
 
 - 3 days 
 
 23 to 24 days 
 
 As to the probable cost, the confidential informa- 
 tion obtained in the course of inquiries by a special 
 Committee of the British Cabinet after the Conference 
 can doul)tless be procured by the Royal Commission. 
 Unofficial estimates placed the subsidy at various 
 amounts up to 1,000,OOOL a year. Such a sum, if 
 necessai-y, would not in our opinion be too much to 
 pay for the commercial and political advantages of 
 having New Zealand brought within 21 days of 
 Britain and Australia (Sydney) within 24 days, with 
 the proportinate reduction of time to and from the 
 intermediate countries. 
 
 (^ West Indian Services. 
 
 For many years past there has been an increasing- 
 tendency for the principal West Indian Colony, 
 Jamaica, to look to the United States rather than the 
 Empire for its economic development. The attraction 
 of the United States as a great market for tropical 
 products — formerly sugar, but nowadays principally 
 fruit — has been stimulated by the enterjirise of 
 American capitalists in developing the agricultm-al 
 resoiu-ces of Jamaica, and by the yearly stream of 
 American tourists. 
 
 The most important attempt to check this tendency 
 to rely on a foreign country has been the action of the 
 Canadian Government in giving a preference to West 
 Indian products (particularly sugar) which has now 
 been made reciprocal, and establishing direct steam- 
 ship communication with Canadian ports on the 
 Atlantic. But Jamaica lias stood out of this arrange- 
 ment for fear of what the United States might do — a 
 most humiliating position for the Colony and the 
 Empire. 
 
 This Imperial policy of Canada has been impeded 
 all along by the want of cohesion between the West 
 Indian Colonies, which may be traced partly to the 
 lack of rapid inter-communication. In poi'ticular, 
 Jamaica is cut off from the Colonies to the so\ith by 
 an interval of 9 or 10 days or more. 
 
 The American export trade to the West Indian 
 Colonies tends to displace the British export trade. 
 
 It is therefore, desirable that all practicable 
 measures should be taken to maintain and expand the 
 Empire trade, and to facilitate personal intercourse 
 between the West Indies and other parts of the Empire, 
 especially Britain and Canada. 
 
 o
 
 106 
 
 DOMINION'S ROYAL COMMISSION : PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION 
 
 For this purpose some of the steamship communi- 
 cations re<iuiie to be accelerated, being plainly behind 
 the times. 
 
 (a) Britain-West Indies. 
 
 The two main routes of dii-ect commvmication 
 between Britain and the West Indies are fi-om South- 
 ampton to Barbados and from Bristol to Jamaica. 
 There are, however, various other senices from British 
 ports. 
 
 The Southampton-Barbados route is that of the 
 historic mail service of the Royal Mail Steam Packet 
 Company, which is on a fortnightly basis. 
 
 But though this ser\-ice eventually reaches Jamaica 
 the time occupied is so long (over three weeks) that, 
 we understand, fhe mails are generally sent via the 
 United States. 
 
 From 1900 to 1911 a contract was held by the 
 Imperial Direct West India sei-vice, which was estab- 
 lished in 1900 as the result of negotiations between 
 the late Su- Alfred Jones and Mr. Chamberlain, with 
 the object of pro^-iding Jamaica with a direct fruit, 
 passenger, and mail service. Mr. Chamberlain wished 
 to open a market in Britain for Jamaican fiiiit hi order 
 to render that Colony less dependent on the United 
 States. This service was fortnightly, and performed 
 the passage from Bristol to Kingston in 10 to 12 days, 
 calling at Bermuda once a month. The contract lapsed 
 in 1911, and the service was suspended, the Colony 
 being unwilling to renew their share of the subsidy 
 (which was 40,000Z. divided equally between the 
 Imperial and Jamaican Governments), believing that 
 the Imperial Government would not continue theirs. 
 The reluctance of the Colony was also partly due to 
 resentment at the private arrangements whereby the 
 United Fruit Company of the United States of America 
 had secvu-ed practical control of the loading, and 
 partly to a feeling that the banana trade to Britain 
 was now sufficiently well established to render a subsidy 
 unnecessary. This latter belief was justified by the 
 event, since a weekly service of about equal speed is 
 now maintained by Elders and Fyties, Limited, a com- 
 pany which is said to be mainly owned by the United 
 Frnit Company of the United States of America. But 
 as compared with the previous service, the present one 
 seems to be inferior in the following respects, of 
 Imperial importance : — 
 
 (1) It is virtrally under foreign control. 
 
 (2) The speed has ceased to be adequate for the 
 
 carriage of mails, which now go by a foreign 
 route owing to the more rapid improvement 
 of American communications* 
 
 (3) The lx>ats now carry fruit only, returning 
 
 ■ practically empty, thus doing nothing 
 directly to develop the British export ti-ade. 
 
 (4) The monthly call at Bermuda ha^■ing been 
 
 dropped, that British Colony is now isolated, 
 being connected only i-i'l the United States 
 of Ajn erica. 
 
 The maU contract with the Royal Mail Steam 
 Packet Company lapsed in 1905, after which the mails 
 were canied on a poundage basis. It was renewed in 
 1911. after much dispute as to the amount of subsidy, 
 which was finally fixed at 88,000Z. The speed from 
 Britain to Barbados, which is still the first port of call, 
 is no greater than was stipulated in the contract of 
 1890, viz., 13 knots, it ha\^ng been raised from Hi 
 knots in 1880 to 12 knots in 188.5. For practical 
 purposes there has been no acceleration for 25 years, 
 since we find that in 1888, James Anthony Froude, 
 who has left the particulai-s on record (vide " The 
 English in the West Indies '"), made the passage by 
 R.M.S. " Moselle ' in 276 ho\u-s, which seems to be no 
 longer than the time contemplated intheciurent time- 
 tables published by the Royal Mail Steam Packet 
 Company. 
 
 We suggest that the acceleration of this service by 
 2 or 3 knots would do much to encourage trade and 
 intercourse between the Mother Country and the 
 southern West Indian Colonies. 
 
 We further suggest that thefoi-mer Imperial Direct 
 Service with Jamaica should be restored in some form 
 or other, and accelerated sufficiently to make this route 
 as quick as any foreign route for mails and passengers. 
 Henceforth, however, this question has to l)e considered 
 
 in connection with the Panama Canal. Presumably 
 various services will be established via the canal 
 between Britain and the countries bordering the North 
 and South Pacific. One of these sei-vices might per- 
 haps be utilised to connect Jamaica with Britain, 
 preferably via Bermuda. 
 
 As to probable cost, we do not know how any 
 reUable estimate can be reached except by calling for 
 tenders. 
 
 (6) West Indies inter se. 
 
 The mail and passenger commimication between 
 Jamaica and the southern colonies is at least 100 years 
 behind the times. 
 
 For example, in 1801, General Nugent, going out 
 as Governor of Jamaica, was conveyed by H.M. frigat« 
 " Ambuscade " from Bridgetown (Barbados) to Port 
 Royal (Kingston, Jamaica) in just nine days. At 
 present the mail service takes ten days between the 
 same two capitals. 
 
 The present mail service is circuitous, via a number 
 of foreign ports on the Spanish main. We suggest 
 that a comprehensive inter-Colonial service ought to be 
 established, affording direct commiuiication one way 
 between Jamaica and the southern islands. The 
 distance direct is about 1.000 miles. 
 
 (c) West Indies-Canada. 
 
 That the service carried on by Messrs. Pickford and 
 Black between Canadian and West Indian poi-ts (exclud- 
 ing Jamaica) has not been adequate to existing needs 
 is shown by the attempts of the Canadian Govemment 
 to improve it. On this point the Royal Commission can 
 doubtless get the fullest information from one of their 
 number, Hon. George E. Foster, the Minister i-espon- 
 sible. 
 
 A proposal was reported to have been made in 1912 
 by an influential Canadian- West Indian syndicate to 
 establish a weekly sei-vice of 15-knot 5,000-ton 
 steamers, cariying 100 saloon passengers, between 
 Jamaica and Halifax and St. John, connecting there 
 with trans- Atlantic steamers, and with a subsidiary 
 coastal service in Jamaica, for a subsidy of 60,000i. a 
 year for 10 years. 
 
 Perhaps, however, Halifax and St. John are too 
 remote from the most populous centres of Canada to 
 form convenient points of departure for the majority 
 of Canadians who might visit the West Indies. 
 Boston and New York would be more convenient to 
 them. Either, therefore, the Canadian boats would 
 require to call at one of these foreign ports, or else the 
 Canadian service svould be practically confined to 
 cargo, as hitherto, in which case speed is of secondary 
 importance. 
 
 (iv) Telegeajh Communications : Deficiencies. 
 
 In our view the telegraph communications of the 
 Empire should continue to be regarded as defective 
 until such time as it is possible for the public in 
 Britain and the Dominions to telegraph to any point 
 ^vithin the collective territory with the same facility as 
 they can now telegraph between any two points in any 
 one of the countries. 
 
 Just as there is now uniform penny postage 
 throughout the collective territory, so there should 
 be ultimately a uniform and cheap telegraph rate. 
 Not until this condition is attained wiU the full use of 
 telegraphy be realised as an agency of Empire 
 development, and of political union. But, since under 
 present conditions that ideal system would be financially 
 onerous to the Governments concerned, it should be 
 approached by gradual stages only, allowing time for 
 the public to become more familiar with this method 
 of communication, while keeping pace with the 
 technical improvements of telegraphy. 
 
 The reductions which have been made in cable 
 rates from time to time carry us a little way, but only 
 a little way, towards the goal, and ha^e failed to 
 satisfy the ah-eady existing demand for a more popular 
 service. 
 
 Meanwhile, the passing of the North Atlantic 
 cables into practically foreign control has strengthened 
 the feehng of urgency in regard to the whole question of 
 creating a complete, aD-British, Empii-e cable system.
 
 EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. 
 
 107 
 
 For many years one of the arguments used in 
 support of that policy was that, if an Empire system 
 were not speedily created, we might presently find that 
 foreign countries were securing to themselves the 
 strategic and commercial advantages which we were 
 neglecting. A reference to the accompanying map* 
 will show at once how far this apprehension was 
 justified. Germany, France, and Holland have already 
 secured many of the lines they require and are con- 
 tinuing the policy, which they have consistently 
 pursued, of encouraging the enterprise of their own 
 people in this field. There has been no secret about 
 the determination of foreign interests, not merely to 
 secure lines independent of the British, but to secure 
 to themselves the British lines also, whenever possible. 
 The whole of the cables between the United Kingdom, 
 Newfoundland, and Canada are now controlled by 
 foreign interests. 
 
 A scheme for the development of an adequate 
 Empire system of cables was published and advocated 
 by the Ottawa Board of Trade in 1907, the estimated 
 cost being placed at a maximuin of 5,000, OOOL (see 
 Pamphletf herewith). This scheme, which was based 
 on the principle of an All-British chain of State-owned 
 cables encircling the globe, was designed to enable 
 messages between any two points to be forwarded either 
 eastwards or westwards, thus affording some security 
 against interruptions through accident or in war. 
 
 At present the All-British ichain, reckoning both 
 company and State-owned cables, is defective in so far 
 as the West Indies are not im any link, and the North 
 Atlantic link between Canada and Britain has virtually 
 ceased to be Bi-itish. 
 
 Cables still re(iuired, therefore, to complete the 
 British chain are from Bathm-st to Barbados, 
 Barbados to Bermuda (which is already connected 
 by cable with Halifax, N.S.), and an Imperial cable 
 from Halifax to Newfoundland and Britain, which 
 should be laid as far north as possible. 
 
 The cost would probably be about 1,500,000?. 
 
 At the points above specified should be established 
 suitable wireless stations, as feeders. But we share 
 the view that wirele.ss telegraphy is not likely to 
 supersede the need of cables for many years to come. 
 
 The laying of these cables would create a route 
 from Egypt and the East to the United Kingdom, 
 Britain, and Canada which would be less liable than 
 existing routes to interruption in war, as it would 
 eliminate the danger zone through the Mediterranean 
 to Gibraltar, and along the coast of Spain, Portugal, 
 and France, and the Channel, and in the "West Indies 
 eliminate the present landings of cable on foreign 
 territory. It will also give an alternative British route 
 to the Cape, and thence to Australia. The difference 
 of time between the Cape and Britain would permit 
 the flow of traffic across the Atlantic during hours 
 when that route is most free of English and Canadian 
 traffic. It is possible that by adjustment of rates the 
 new lines could be made self-supporting if desired. 
 
 [The scheme for establishing an imperial chain of 
 wireless stations, which is now eiigcging thu attention 
 of the Imperial British Government, may also be taken 
 as indicating an existing deficiency, and is eminently 
 appropriate to the purpose of our proposed Empire 
 Board and Fund. We are of opinion that, had such a 
 board been in existence at the outset, the peculiar 
 troubles which have attended this important scheme 
 would all have been avoided. 
 
 In support of the above statements the following 
 papers are submitted herewith : — 
 
 (1) Ottawa Board of Trade Papers — an Address to 
 
 H.E. Lord Grey on the All-Red Line. 
 
 (2) Map. 
 
 (3) Extract from "The Times" (April 25th, 1913). 
 
 and 
 
 (4) " Canadian Gazette " (April 17th), showing that 
 
 both the British and Canadian Governments 
 had recognised the need of State control over 
 Atlantic cable rates. 
 
 (5) Statements setting forth some subsidy payments 
 and guarantees by various Governments.] 
 
 Ben. H. Morgan, 
 
 Chairman. Empire Ti-ade and 
 
 Industry Committee, 
 
 Royal Colonial Institute. 
 
 James R. Boose, Secretary. 
 
 19th July 1913. 
 
 APPENDICES 
 
 Appendix A. 
 
 [The subjoined figures have teen prepared from 
 figures given in the " Stock Exchange Year-Book," 
 " Stock Exchange Ofiicial Intelligence," and " Pair- 
 play " ; and while it may be slightly out of date in 
 certain details, the Committee believe it to be sub- 
 stantially correct, but they cannot hold themselves 
 responsible in any way for its accuracy.] 
 
 Recent amalgamations of British shipping lineR, 
 and list of principal foreign shipping companies : — 
 
 Amalgamations. 
 
 Capital. Date 
 
 Internationai Mercantile 
 Marine Company. 
 
 Oceanic Steam Navigation 
 Company, Ltd., including, 
 with Shaw Savill and Albion, 
 Ltd., ownership of steamship 
 line to New Zealand. 
 
 Atlantic Transport Company, 
 Ltd. 
 
 National Steamship Company, 
 Ltd. 
 
 International Navigation Com- 
 pany, Ltd. 
 
 Mississijjpi and Dominion 
 Steamship Company, Ltd. 
 
 British and North Atlantic 
 Steam Navigation Company, 
 Ltd. 
 
 Societe Anonyme de Navigation 
 Belge-Americaine (Red Star 
 Line), and the shipping in- 
 terests of 
 
 Frederick Leyland & Co., Ltd. 
 
 Ismay Imray & Co. 
 
 Richard Mills & Co. 
 
 this combine controlling a fleet of 126 vessels, with 
 a tonnage of 1,181,125 tons. 
 
 Since the report of the Commission in 1909, the 
 progress of amalgamation has been greatly accelei-ated. 
 During the last few years the following British shipping 
 mergers have taken place : — 
 
 Not reproduced. 
 
 t Not reprinted. 
 
 Amalgamations. 
 
 Capital. 
 
 Date. 
 
 CuNARD Steamship Company, 
 
 £■ 
 2,500,000 
 
 1912 
 
 Ltd. 
 
 
 
 Anchor Line (Henderson Bros.), 
 
 
 
 Ltd. 
 
 
 
 Elder Dempster &, Co., Ltd - 
 
 2,010,000 
 
 1910 
 
 British and African Steam 
 
 
 
 Navigation Company, Ltd. 
 
 
 
 Elder Line, Ltd. 
 
 
 
 Imperial Direct West India 
 
 
 
 Mail Company, Ltd. ; and a 
 
 
 
 half share of the 
 
 
 
 Union Castle Steamship Com- 
 
 
 
 pany, Ltd. 
 
 
 
 (See Royal Mail Steam I'acket 
 
 
 
 Company, Ltd., below). 
 

 
 108 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 
 
 -PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION 
 
 and also interests in the Cunard. Glen and the African 
 Steamship Company. This combine directly owns 
 112 vessels, with a gross tonnage of 325,983 tons. 
 
 Amalgamations. 
 
 Capital. Date. 
 
 Lamport and Holt. Ltd. - 
 
 Lamport and Holt. 
 
 Livei-pool. Brazil, and River 
 Plate Steam Navigation Com- 
 pany, Ltd. 
 
 Fleet 29 vessels, totalling 154.950 tons. (Four- 
 fifths of the shares of Lam^ioi-t and Holt, Ltd., are 
 held by the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, Ltd., 
 and Messrs. Elder Dempster & Co., Ltd.) 
 
 1911 
 
 Amalgamation. 
 
 Capital. I Date. 
 
 Peninsular and Oriental | 3,500,000 1910 
 Steamship Company. Ltd. 
 Blue Anchor Line. 
 
 In this fleet there are 71 vessels, with a tonnage of 
 542,091 tons. 
 
 Amalgamations. 
 
 BoYAL Mail Steam Packet 
 Company. Ltd. 
 
 Pacific Steam Navigation Com- 
 pany, 
 
 Nelson Steam Navigation Com- 
 pany, Ltd. ; and a half shai-e 
 of the 
 
 Union Castle Mail Steamship 
 Company, Ltd. 
 
 The Royal Mail fleet consists of 47 steamers, 
 aggregating 235,365 tons, and the fleets of other 
 companies closely afiiliated with their management 
 represent 1,014,004 tons. 
 
 Amalgamations. Capital. 
 
 Furness, Withy jt Co., Ltd. 
 
 British Maritime Trast. Ltd. 
 
 Norfolk and North American Steam- 
 ship Company', Ltd. 
 
 Argentine Cargo Line. Ltd. 
 
 Chesapeake and Ohio Steamship Com- 
 pany, Ltd. 
 
 London Welsh Steamship Company ,Ltd. 
 
 The British and Argentine Steam 
 Navigation Company. Ltd. 
 
 Neptune Steam Navigation Company, 
 Ltd. 
 
 WTiite Diamond Steamship Company, 
 Ltd. ; and interests in 
 
 Houlder Bros. & Co., Ltd. 
 
 Gulf Line. 
 
 £3,500,000 
 
 Principal Foreign Shipping Companies. 
 
 Line. 
 
 Capital. Office. 
 
 Hambui-g-Amerika - 
 
 M.125,000,000 ' Hamburg 
 
 Norddeutsch Lloyd 
 
 M.12O.000.000 
 
 Bremen 
 
 Cie. Gre. Ti-ansatlantique - 
 
 F.39,000,000 
 
 Paris 
 
 Messageries Maritimes - 
 
 F.45,000,000 
 
 Marseilles 
 
 Nippon Tusen Kaisha - 
 
 Ten.22,000,000 
 
 Tokio 
 
 Hansa . - . . 
 
 M.25,000,000 
 
 Bremen 
 
 Austrian Lloyd, and 
 
 Kr.28,800.000 
 
 Vienna 
 
 The International Mer- 
 
 §120,000,000 
 
 New 
 
 cantile Marine Com- 
 
 
 Jersey 
 
 pany of New Jei-sey. 
 
 
 
 Appendix B. 
 
 Extracts from recent Canadian and British news- 
 papers illusti-ating present dissatisfaction with 
 freight conditions, together with Extract from the 
 reports of H.M. Ti-ade Commissioners for Canada 
 on the sul)jeot of high freight rates. 
 ' Canada "" newspaper. 5th July 1913 : — 
 
 •• Ocean Rates. Permanent Commission Pro- 
 posed. At the request of the Canadian Manu- 
 facturers' Association the Ottawa Board of Trade 
 has passed the following resolut ion and fonvarded 
 it to the Hon. George H. Perley. Acting Minister 
 of Trade and Commerce : ' That the Board of 
 ' Trade of the City of Ottawa urge upon the 
 ' Government the immediate appointment of a 
 
 • Commission for the pui-pose of investigating 
 
 • the excessive increases in Ocean Rates, both 
 ' import and export, and that action be taken 
 ' looking toward an Intel-national Conference 
 ' composed of representatives of all maritime 
 
 • nations concerned, with a view to establishing 
 
 • a permanent commission with power to enquii-e 
 ■ into such matters, and detennine what action 
 ' is necessary to overcome combinations and 
 ' arrangements between steamship lines to unduly 
 ' enhance the rates which appai-eutiy now exist.'" 
 
 " Conuuercial Intelligence," London, 25th Jvme 
 1913 :— 
 
 Commenting upon the above resolution this 
 paper, which is tenned the British Manufactui'ei-s' 
 Export Joiu-nal. says : — ■' The enquiiy to be made 
 " by the Empire Trade Commission is, apparently, 
 " not regai-ded as adequate by the Canadian 
 " traders, but the Govei-nment is not likely to 
 " take any action until the Commission has con- 
 " sidered the question. That any international 
 •' action is possible we doubt, since British 
 '• and foreign interests in the matter are not 
 " altogether La hai-mony ; but there is lu-gent 
 " need of tmited action within the Empire, 
 " and the agitation in Canada may help to rouse 
 " in Government circles a more serious view of the 
 " position than, in this counti-y at any i-ate, they 
 " are inclined to take at present." 
 " The Monetary Times," Toronto, 7th Jvme 1913 : — 
 
 " The question of advances in ocean fi-eight 
 rates, both import and export, has again Ijeen 
 discussed by the Montreal Board of Trade. It 
 was decided to call the attention of the Govern- 
 ment to the matter, with a vie^v of learning 
 whether Great Britain and the other maritime 
 nations could be induced to take joint action for 
 the conti'ol of rates. As a preliminary step the 
 ti-ansportation bm'eau committee of the Board 
 recommended that the Dominion Government 
 should be asked to appoint a commission of inquh-y 
 with a \\eyf to arriving at all the facts in connec- 
 tion with the advances in i-ates that have taken 
 place within the last few years. . . . 
 
 •' The question of ocean rates arises periodically. 
 It is alleged, and generally believed, that they 
 are regulated by combination. The question was 
 investigated to some extent by Mr. Richai-d Grigg, 
 Chief Canadian Trade Commissioner, when he held 
 the position of British Ti-ade Commissioner in 
 Canada. In a report to the Imperial Govern- 
 ment in 1907, he said : ' It must be a matter 
 ' of opinion as to whether i-ates of carriage are 
 ' higher than the service wan-ants, and if they 
 ' are it is perhaps easier to state the fact than 
 ' to formulate a remedy. Assuming them to be 
 ' so, it would appear that part of the preference 
 ' designed to encoui-age the imports of British 
 ' manufactm-e goes into the pockets of steam- 
 ' ship ownei-s, and thereby to some extent defeats 
 ' the intention of the preference by checking the 
 ' imports of British goods. . . .' " 
 
 •■ The Mouetaiy Times " goes on to say : 
 The subject of the control of ocean fi-eight rates 
 has frequently been brought to their attention 
 (i.e., the Government), but little progress has been 
 made with a view to an xmbiassed investigation. 
 Meantime shippers pass sheafs of i-esolutions, 
 and the shipping companies mind their own 
 business."
 
 EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. 
 
 lO'J 
 
 H.M. Trade Oommissiouer for Canada (Mr. Richard 
 Grigg), in the course of his report on the trade of the 
 Dominion for the period from 1st July 190K to 31st 
 March 1910 (Cd. 5591), dealing with import freight 
 rates, states (page 53 et scq) -. — 
 
 " Within the last few years considerable atten- 
 tion has been attracted l)y the very noticeable 
 increase in shipping freights on consignments 
 from the United Kingdom to Canada." 
 While the present Commissioner, Mr. A. Hamilton 
 Wickes, in his report for 19] 2 (Cd. 6870) states :— 
 
 " Freights between Europe and Canada in all 
 '• lines of goods have shown a constant tendency 
 " to advance during the past 10 years. On the 
 " other hand, railway rates from American 
 " manufacturing centres to Canada have hardly 
 " moved." The Trade Commissioner goes on to 
 say, "The situation would appear to amount to 
 
 Appendix 
 
 '• this: That sliipx)ing companies are as much 
 " in business to make a profit as the manu- 
 " facturer, mer(;hant, or other trader." And 
 f ui-tber on, " It is a fact, however, that although 
 ■■ common caiTiers, in much the same sense as 
 " railway companies, they have so far been able 
 " to avoid the obligations relating to freight 
 '• imposed ujion the latter." And later on he 
 states. "It would appear that freight has bad, 
 " and is having, a direst effect on the imports 
 " of the latter class of goods (i.e., manufactures 
 " of metals, machines and machinery) into the 
 " Dominion." And finally winds up by stating, 
 w^ith reference to the small percentage of trade 
 done by the United Kingdom in simple manu- 
 factures of metals, that '• but the difference in 
 '■ freight rates from the United Kingdom may 
 " also be taken to be a conti-ibutive factor." 
 
 RATE 
 PER TON 
 
 1902 
 
 1903 
 
 1904 
 
 1906 
 
 i9oe 
 
 1907 
 
 1908 
 
 1909 
 
 1910 
 
 1911 
 
 1912 
 
 65s. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 50s. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 il 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 If 
 
 45s. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ij 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ■ 
 
 / 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 f 
 1 
 
 / 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 '1 
 
 ' 1 
 
 40S. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / I 
 \ 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 // 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / / 
 / / 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 f 
 
 / 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / / 
 
 
 35s. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / / 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / / 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / 
 / 
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / 
 
 
 
 30s. 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 "^S.-^ 
 
 ^^^ 
 
 ^ 
 
 
 
 •''/ 
 
 
 
 > 
 
 r 
 
 
 
 ..^ 
 
 -A 
 
 
 / 
 
 / 
 
 
 
 / 
 
 
 
 
 / 
 
 / 
 
 s 
 
 , / 
 
 
 _/ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / 
 
 / 
 
 
 yv' 
 
 /^ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 \> 
 
 r 
 
 
 
 
 25s. 
 
 \ 
 \ 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 V 
 
 
 
 
 
 \ 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 \ 
 
 
 J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 \ 
 \ 
 
 
 / 
 f 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 N 
 
 ' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 V Hnmpsunrii Frp.icrh 
 
 ^<r 
 
 
 
 
 
 Ouh 
 
 varcf i 
 
 Freigh 
 
 'fS 
 
 - 
 
 The figures given in the Rate column are ai-rired at thus : By the increase in Freight, 
 
 goods bearing a rate of 32s. per ton in 1902 would in 1912 have paid 52s. 6d. per ton. 
 
 E 20830 P
 
 110 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION. 
 
 Tijincal Increases of Freight Rates. 
 
 H.M. Trade Commissioner for Canada, 1912 Report. 
 (Cd. 6870, p. 2(5.) 
 
 1910. 
 
 Per ton. 
 7s. Sd. m. 
 
 1913. 
 
 Per ton. 
 Sijs. Od. m. 
 
 25s. Od. m. I 35s. Od. m. 
 
 Cutlery : United King- 
 dom to Montreal. 
 
 Cutlery : Liverpool to 
 Toronto (car load i 
 lots). I 
 
 Metal Nuts: United I 12s. 6d. wt. : 17s. M. wt. 
 Kingdom to Montreal ! 
 
 Iron Girders - - ' 12s. 6d. wt. IHs. :i<7, wt. 
 
 " Daily Mail " Year Book, 1913. 
 
 Bulk Cargoes. 
 
 Oct. 
 
 1911. 
 
 Oct. 
 
 1912. 
 
 
 
 Per ton. 
 
 Per 
 
 ton. 
 
 Azoff to Rotterdam 
 
 
 10s. 
 
 ■3d. 
 
 20s 
 
 Od. 
 
 Savannah to Liverpc 
 
 .ol 
 
 33s. 
 
 M. 
 
 60s. 
 
 Od. 
 
 Odessa to London 
 
 or 
 
 10s. 
 
 3d. 
 
 18s. 
 
 Od. 
 
 Rotterdam. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Cardiff to Genoa - 
 
 1 
 
 9s. 
 
 3d. 
 
 13s. 
 
 Od. 
 
 Appendix D. — -1 to 6. 
 
 Instances of Lower Freights frmn CoiitinctdaJ than from 
 Dnited Kingdom Ports to Overseas. 
 
 1 . A British Manufacturers' Association states : — 
 
 1 have pleasure in giving you the following note of 
 freight on linen goods : — 
 
 Per 10 cubic ft. 
 Belfast to New York (Lusitania) 
 (Mauretania 
 „ „ White Star 
 
 Anchor 
 Cunard 
 Belfast to Cape Town from outh- 
 
 ampton. 
 Belfast to Buenos Aires 
 Antwerp to New York - 
 
 ia) / 
 
 52s. 3d. 
 
 *19s. 6d. 
 
 46s. 9d. 
 
 79s. 6rf. 
 
 *29s. Od. 
 
 2. The following figures are supplied by one of the 
 largest British electrical manufacturers : — 
 
 Ekctrial Material. — Glass, W.T. tubes, earthen- 
 ware i)ots, sal-ammoniac, metal filament lamps, 
 common porcelain, machinery, woodenware, lead shot, 
 zinc rods, electrical fittings, accumulators ; — 
 
 Avcmge of Freight Rates on above : — 
 
 Groods from. 
 
 As at Ajml, 1913. Rebate. 
 
 Hamburg to Bombay 
 Ijondon to Bombay 
 Hamburg to Sydney 
 London to Sydney 
 
 Per ton mm. 
 
 
 or weight. 
 
 Pel- cent 
 
 21.S. (id. 
 
 5 
 
 24s. 11 rf. 
 
 5 
 
 33s. 2d. 
 
 10 
 
 37s. 3d. 
 
 5 
 
 3. His Majesty's Trade Commissioner for New 
 Zealand states in his Report for 1911 : — 
 
 "A further point to be considered is that of 
 outwai'd freights. Instances can be given with- 
 out end to show how German and American 
 goods are brought out via, British ports in 
 British ships at lower freight rates than similar 
 British goods from those same British ports. 
 The shipping companies can of course plead that 
 their only concern is to secure all the freight 
 they can, and by underquoting foreign com- 
 petitors prevent them from putting more foreign 
 boats on to those runs. They would perhaps 
 
 See 5, in next column. 
 
 argue fmther that in so doing in the long rim 
 they are benefiting British manufactm-ers. At 
 the same time they must realise that very con- 
 siderable harm is jjeing done by this policy. Not 
 only is the British manufacturer handicapped in 
 competition, but he is in some cases, forced out 
 of the field — his goods bemg, as a rule, more 
 expensive owing to higher quality, and the 
 additional higher cost of transport making it 
 impossible to market the goods. A special 
 instance is agricultural implements, where 
 British makers in the United Kingdom find it 
 difficult, if not impossible, to compete with 
 America and Canada. But apart from this the 
 impression given iu the Dominion must be taken 
 into account. A very considerable impetus has 
 been given to British manufacture by the levy 
 of higher tariff rates on non-British goods. At 
 the same time a diametrically opposite policy is 
 being carried out by an important section of the 
 British community ; the same goods which the 
 Dominion is trying to keep out by higher duties 
 in the interests of the United Kingdom are being 
 pushed in by our shipowners through lower 
 freights, and the deliberate policy of the 
 Dominion is being fi-ustrated." 
 
 4. H.M. Trade Commissioner for Canada (Mr. 
 Richai-d Grigg), in his report on Canadian trade, 
 1st Jidy 1906 to 31st March 1910 (Cd. 5591), states 
 
 (p. 44) :— 
 
 " Attention may here be directed to the fact 
 that the whole position of ti'ade is intimately 
 dependent upon shipping facilities. No anioimt 
 of preferential duty, and no alacrity on the part 
 of the British merchant, can avail to hold the 
 Canadian market if the conditions and cost of 
 shipment are such as to militate against the 
 supply of the market from overseas. It is there- 
 fore necessary for all who are interested on both 
 sides of the Atlantic in the maintenance and 
 extension of British trade, to see to it that ocean 
 freight rates are kept at a point which vrill not 
 imperil the future importation of British goods. 
 At various points in the present report, and 
 especially on p. 53, this matter comes under 
 general discussion, but it needs also to bo empha- 
 sised in this summary of the general tendency 
 and movement of British and American com- 
 petition." Again (p. 54) — " The subject is one 
 of vitiil interest to the exporters of British goods, 
 inasmuch as the rise in freights threatens to 
 reach a point which, in the opinion of many 
 well-informed people in Canadian commercial 
 circles, may affect the benefits accruing to 
 British traders from the preferential tariff. " 
 
 5. H.M. Trade Commissioner for Canada, Mr. A. 
 Hamilton "Wickes (Cd. 6870), states : — 
 
 " It is not unusual to hear a well-informed 
 business man state that he is ' confident that the 
 preferential tariff is being utilised by the ocean 
 transport companies to squeeze higher freight out 
 of the goods from the United Kingdom,' thereby 
 cancelling, to a great extent, the concession 
 imder the tariff extended to British trade by the 
 Canadian Government. I believe this view to be 
 an illusion. In any case, as far as it might be 
 applied to shipments from countries of conti- 
 nental Europe, the trade is so small in volume 
 that even if it had been the practice to give a 
 materially lower preferential i-ate for such ship- 
 ments, it has not, so far, had much effect. Still, 
 quite recently, a New York importei', in a letter 
 dated 20th January 1913, addi-essed to the 
 Chairman of the Committee of the House of 
 Representatives sitting at Washington on the 
 ' so-called Shipping Combine,' stated as follows : — 
 " Lmens from Belfast by any or all of the 
 Conference Lines to New York are charged a 
 freight (with 10 per cent, piimage) of 49s. 6d. 
 per ton. while similar goods from Prance, md 
 HaATe and Southampton, by one of the ship- 
 ping companies in the Conference, were 
 carried to New York at 26s. 6d. per ton.'" 
 
 6. The Manchester Association of Importers and 
 Exporters, in its report for year ended Februai-y 1913, 
 
 states; — in: 'Alii ii
 
 NATURAL RESOURCES : COTION-GROWING. 
 
 Ill 
 
 " The attention of the High Commissioner for 
 Australia in London was called to the more 
 favourable facilities for transportation granted 
 to Continental competitors, and more especially 
 to the exceptional facilities afforded in con- 
 nection with the export of wire and wire goods 
 from the Continent in competition with the 
 United Kingdom. It was pointed out that the 
 effect of a Continental manufactiu-er having, say, 
 2s. 6f7. per ton cheaper steamer freight to pay, 
 was that he might he able to cut out the British 
 manufactiu'er without giving the whole of the 
 2s. Gd. to the buyer. Cases have teen laid before 
 the Association where the British manufacturer 
 has lost an order by less than the difference in 
 the rate of freight. It was essential, therefore, 
 that a preference should be given to British wire 
 and wire goods which were admitted into Austi^alia 
 upon the ' Free List,' and tliat the preference 
 
 of 5 per cent, granted ta barbed wire of 
 British manufacture should be increased. The 
 Comptroller-General (Department of Trade and 
 Customs, Melbourne), to whom the matter was 
 relegated, promised to give full consideration to 
 these recommendations when the tariff was under 
 revision ; but when the Tariff Amendment Bill 
 was subsequently introduced into the Australian 
 House of Representatives no amended provisions 
 for wire goods were made. The efforts of 
 the Association will not be relaxed, and it is 
 hoped that eventu;illy British exporters of these 
 commodities will be placed on a sounder footing." 
 Ben. H. Moegan, 
 Chairman, Empire Trade and 
 Industry Committee, 
 Royal Colonial Institute. 
 Jamks R. Boose, Secretary. 
 19th July 191 15, 
 
 IV. -NATURAL RESOURCES. 
 
 Correspondence with the British Cotton Growing Association, the Official Secretary, High 
 Commissioner's Office, Commonwealth of Australia, and the Agent-General for Queensland, 
 as to Cotton-Growing in Australia. 
 
 1. British Cotton Growing Association, 25th October 1913 . - - - - 
 
 2. Bi-itish Cotton Growing Association, 14th November 1913 - - - - - 
 
 3. Royal Commission to the British Cotton Growing Association, 20th November 1913 
 
 4. Royal Commission to the Official Secretary, High Commissioner's Office, Commonwealth 
 
 Australia, and to the Agent- General for Queensland, 20th November 1913 
 
 of 
 
 p. Ill 
 p. 114 
 p. 114 
 
 p. lir> 
 
 The British Cotton Growing Association, 
 Manchester, 
 Dear Sib, 25th October 1913. 
 
 With reference to the conversation which took 
 place at the Conference held at the Colonel Office on 
 October 22nd, I have much pleasure in informing you 
 that I have discussed the matter with the Executive 
 Committee of this Association and that they are 
 anxious and willing to help as far as possible in proving 
 definitely whether cotton can begro\TOon a commercial 
 basis in any part of Australia. 
 
 2. They were nuicli disturbed at the report I gave 
 them that there was a feeling that Australia had not 
 been fairly treated by this Association, and they wish 
 me to convey to the members of the Cimimission their 
 assurance that it is their wish and intention, as it 
 always has been, to do their Ijest to help in esta- 
 blishing cotton-growing in all parts of the Bi-itish 
 Empire where the climate, soil, and other conditions 
 ai'e favourable. In proof of this, I beg to refer you to 
 the extracts from correspondence attached hereto as 
 follows 1 — 
 
 (1) 1905 — .lauuary 19th, B.C.G.A., to Mr. .1. 
 Bottomley. 
 
 1905 — March 24th. B.C.G.A. to Mr. J. 
 Bottomley. 
 
 1905— April 27th, B.C.G.A. to Mr. .1. Bottomley. 
 
 1905— May l(5th, B.C.G.A. to Mr, .1. B.jttomley. 
 
 1906— December 10th, B.C.G.A. to the Agent- 
 General for Queensland. 
 
 1907 — .lanuary 28th, Department of Agriculture, 
 Brisbane, to the Agent-General for Queens- 
 land. 
 
 1907— March 14th, B.C.G.A. to the Agent- 
 General for Qiieensland. 
 
 3. It will be evident to you, from a perusal of the 
 above, that although my Council were very doubtful as 
 to the possibility of producing cotton in Australia on 
 a commercial basis, they were willing to help as far as 
 lay in theu' power, but they considered that it was 
 essential for success that the local Govenmienta 
 should take part in the ventm-e. I hope, however, that 
 the Commission will do then- best to lemove the 
 unfortunate misunderstandings which have arisen in 
 the past, fm- I can assure you that it has always been 
 our policy to do all we could to assist any Government 
 
 (2) 
 
 (4) 
 (5) 
 
 (0) 
 
 (7; 
 
 or Government Department which took up cotton- 
 growing seriously. I should also add that we shall be 
 more than pleased if it can be proved that we are 
 wrong in the impression we fox-med that it was impos- 
 sible to cultivate cotton on a profitable basis where 
 white labour only is available. Ton wiU, however, 
 appreciate the fact that the situation has entirely 
 changed during the last few years and since we made 
 our previous offers to the Queensland Government, 
 and that we are no longer in a position to devote a 
 large sum of money to experimental work. As will 
 be seen from our Annual Report for 1912. a copy of 
 which is enclosed, we have already spent over 170,000?. 
 in experimental work, and therefore we can no longer 
 afford to devote any large .s\mi of money towards proving 
 whether cotton can or ciinnot lie grown on a commercial 
 basis in Australia. 
 
 4. The Committee wish me to state how very much 
 they appreciate the telegraphic offer from the Queens- 
 land Government. dated October Kith,* which was placed 
 ))efore the meeting of October 22nd. They feel that 
 this is a practical step in the right direction, and they 
 are prepared to do what they can to reciprocate. 
 
 5. I must, however, point out that the Committee 
 do not think that a mere otter to guarantee a mininunu 
 price is sufficient, for before one would be justified iu 
 encouraging any farmer to spend money in growing 
 cotton, it is essential that certain experimental work 
 should be carried out with various types of cotton and 
 in different districts in order to prove which type of 
 cotton is most suitable for each district and which ai-e 
 the best methods of cidtivation, and also whether or 
 not the cotton can be produced on a commercial basis 
 — or in other words, whether the farmer can make 
 money out of it. 
 
 6. We do not think it necessary to send out an 
 expert to examine the soil or to investigate the climate, 
 or as to whether the local conditions are suitable for 
 cotton. We already have sufficient evidence, and the 
 Imperial Institute can supplement this, proving that 
 cotton of good quality can be' produced. What has to 
 be proved is whether cotton can be grown on a com- 
 mercial basis and this c'au only be ascertaiiied by actual 
 experiments, and in order to definitely prove the case 
 these experiments should be spread over a period of not 
 less than three yeai-s. 
 
 Not printed. 
 
 P 2
 
 112 
 
 DOillNIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION 
 
 7. We therefore urge that iu the first instance an 
 agriculturist with good practical knowledge of cotton- 
 growing should be engaged for a period oi three years. 
 and he might with advantage be attached to one of the 
 local agricultural departments. If he has had a soimd 
 training in tropical agriculture he would probably be 
 useful in connection with sugar and other tropical 
 products than cotton. 
 
 8. Secondly, a series of practical experiments should 
 be immediately inaugurated with dift'erent types of seed 
 and different methods of culti\ation. and in this con- 
 nection it is not absolutely necessary to have a Govern- 
 ment E.tperimental Station, which are generally rather 
 costly. The evidence required might be more 
 economically obtained by making arrangements with 
 selected farmers to cultivate small experimental plots 
 under the supervision of the cotton expert. This is 
 often done in the United States and iu Egypt and it is 
 generally arranged that the farmershould be guaranteed 
 a minimum crop. In any case it is essential tliat the 
 Government should have absohite control over the seed 
 for further distribution. 
 
 9. In the second season those varieties of cotton 
 which had proved to be failures should be eliminated 
 and the experiments with the more satisfactory types 
 should be continued on a more extensive scale. If this 
 ■work is carried tm ct)ntinuously it is more than probable 
 that in four or fi\e years" time a reliable type of cottcm 
 will be thoroughly established in each particular 
 district, and in this connection it must not be forgotten 
 that it by no means follows that a variety of cotton 
 which has proved a success in one district will be ecjually 
 successful in another district, even though the two 
 districts are closely adjacent. In our opinion, until 
 such experiments have been carried out and the 
 most suitable variety has been firmly established, it is 
 not safe to distribute seed broadcast and to induce 
 farmers to plant cotton. The result would probably 
 mean serious losses to the farmers. 
 
 10. We cannot impress (m you too strongly that 
 the seed which is used for sowing is the most vital 
 factor in connection with cotton-growing. No matter 
 how uood the soil or how favom-able the climatic 
 conditions, or how excellent the cultivation, unless the 
 seed is sound and well matured and of a variety 
 suitable to the district, the result must be faihire. 
 Further than that, it is most dangerous to grow several 
 varieties in one district. Cotton is a very variable 
 plant and is easily self-hybridised, with the result that 
 the crop will become more and more mixed if different 
 varieties are planted in close proximity. There is a 
 further danger when cotton is grown on various farms 
 from various varieties that the different qualities will 
 be mixed together, and the value of the cotton seriously 
 depreciated. F<ir example, if cotton 1} inches long, 
 and worth, say, 10(7. a lb., is mixed with cotton 1 inch 
 in length and worth, say, 7(7. a pound, it is probable 
 that its value will be less than tUrf. per lb. For these 
 reasons we strongly \irge that the seed supply should 
 be entirely iu the hands of the Government, and 
 that no (">ue should be allowed either to import 
 or to distribute seed except vmder licence from the 
 Government. 
 
 11. Further, the ginning and baling of the cotton 
 should be under Government ctmtrol, for it is just as 
 dangerous to mix different growths together in the 
 ginning and baling as it is to sow mixed seed. All 
 dirty or stiiined cotton shoidd be kept separate from 
 clean cotton, and ginned and baled separately. It is 
 also advisable to keep the first, second, and third 
 pickings separate from one another. I have dwelt 
 rather at length on tliese points, for it cannot be 
 insisted on too often that when one is dealing with 
 high-class cotton these are the only methods by which 
 one can expect to obtain high pi-ices, and I presume 
 that it would be of little use to attempt to grow low- 
 grade cotton in Australia. 
 
 12. As regards tlie type of cotton which should be 
 gi-own. only experience will enalile one to decide defi- 
 nitely whicli type will be most suitable. I may, how- 
 ever, state at once that there are two types which 
 should not be encouraged, viz., Sea Island and perennial 
 cotton. The market for Sea Island cotton is a very 
 
 small one. and is already very fully supplied from the 
 United States and the West Indies. As regards 
 perennial types, they may do well enough on a small 
 scale, but, speaking from experience spread all over the 
 world, in the long run their cultivation is not a profit- 
 able one, and the type of cotton, though smtable for 
 mixing with wool, is not suitable for cotton-spinning. 
 There is also the gi'eat disadvantage that they give 
 every facility for the spread of cotton pests and 
 diseases. The modern practice is to cultivate all 
 cotton as an annual and to liave all the plants destroyed 
 at the end of each season, so as to prevent them acting 
 as a bridge to convey the pests from erne season to 
 another. For the same reason " ratooning," or pruning 
 back the plants for a second season's growth should be 
 absolutely forbidden, for there is the additional disad- 
 vantage that the fibre deteriorates year by year. 
 
 13. The other remaining types are Indian, Egyptian, 
 and American. Indian cotton is short, of very low 
 value, and can therefore be ruled out at once. Egyp- 
 tian does well under irrigation, but is hardly to be 
 I'ecommended as a rain crop, but it might be worth 
 while trying a few small experiments. As regards 
 American, we should hardly recommend the shorter 
 stapled varieties owing to their low value, though these 
 are undoubtedly the easiest to grow, and are heavy 
 croppers. There ai-e. however, many high-class 
 varieties of Upland cotton, some of which are worth as 
 much as good Egyptian cotton, as. for example, Allen's 
 Improved, Sunflower, Griffin, ic. and as far as we can 
 judge this type would probably be most suitable foi- 
 the country, though this can only be decided after 
 two or three years' careful experimental work. We 
 generally reckon that it takes from four to five years 
 to thoroughly estalilish a variety of cotton. It is just 
 possible that some suitable types are already estab- 
 lished, and we should be glad to carefully examine 
 and report on any samples sent to us. 
 
 14. After careful consideration of the whole ques- 
 tion the Committee authorised me to make the follow- 
 ing offer to the Commission : — 
 
 ((() If the Govei-nment decide to undertake 
 any experimental work on the lines sug- 
 gested above, the Association will do all 
 in their power to assist either by advice or 
 otherwise, and they will contrilnite the sum 
 of 1007. per aiuium towards the cost of 
 these experiments for a period of three years, 
 dating from July 1st, 1914. 
 
 (b) The Association will supply, free of charge. 
 
 small quantities of seed for experimental 
 purposes. 
 
 (c) The Association will r-eport from time to time 
 
 OQ any samples of cotton and will advise as 
 to their suitability for the market. 
 
 ((7) The Association will superintend the sale of any 
 cotton or seed shipped to this coiiutry and 
 will undertake to obfaiin the best possible 
 price for such shipments. 
 
 (e) The Association will keep separate accounts 
 for each shipper and will superintend the 
 remittance of the proceeds of each lot of 
 cotton or seed, and will pay the same to the 
 accoimt of the producer either in this 
 country or i)i Austi-alia. 
 
 (/ ) The Association will pay the ocean freight and 
 will superintend the insui'ance of the cotton, 
 and will, when required, arrange for it to lie 
 covered against all risks from the time it is 
 weighed in from the fields i\\) to the ware- 
 house in Liverpool. 
 
 ((/) The Association will, when required, make 
 arrangements for financing cotton or seed 
 by accepting bills drawn tm shipment. 
 
 (7i') The Association are pi-epared to supply ginning 
 and other niachineiy, baling material anil 
 other stoi-es. on easy terms of repayment, 
 and will give the buyer the full advantage of 
 all cash and trade discounts. 
 
 (/) The Association will charge for tlie above 
 services the following commission in addi- 
 tion to interest and other out-of-piuket 
 charges : —
 
 NATURAL RESOI'HCES: POTTON-OROWING. 
 
 113 
 
 Cotton - 1 per cent, iucludiiig the 
 broker's charges of J per cent. 
 
 Seed - 1t< per cent, including the 
 
 broker's charges of 1 per cent. 
 
 Buildings, machinery, baling materials, 
 &c. 2 per cent. 
 
 No additional charge will he made for 
 acceptance of bills, payment of freights, 
 insurance premiums, &c. 
 
 (j) For a period of three years, dating from 
 July 1st 1914, the Association will guarantee 
 a minimum price in Liverpool or London 
 of dhd. per pound (less insurance, port, 
 and other charges, which amount to about 
 id. per pound) for all cotton forwarded to 
 them for sale, and which shall have been 
 produced from an annual variety grown from 
 seed issued by the Government, and which 
 shall be shipped in a clean and merchantable 
 condition. Any surplus which may be 
 olitained over the above-mentioned price 
 of Sf^d. per pound will be remitted to the 
 planter. It is stipulated that this offer does 
 not apply to any cotton grown from perennial 
 varieties or from ratooned cotton. 
 
 In conclusion, I can only hope that this offer may 
 be the means of establishing cotton-growing in 
 Australia on a permanent basis. 
 I am. &c. 
 
 .1. ARTHUR HITTTON. 
 
 Chiiirman. 
 The Secretai-y, 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission. 
 
 Enclosure 1. 
 
 The British Cotton Growing Association, 
 Manchester, 
 Dear Sir, January 19th, 190.J. 
 
 We beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 
 November 22nd. 
 
 The whole question of the future action in Australia 
 came up before the Committee on Tuesday last, and 
 they have pi-actieally decided to undertake no work in 
 Australia except thi'ough the various Governments. 
 In their opinion the pioneering work should l:>e under- 
 taken by the local authorities, and if they areprepai-ed 
 to take the matter up seriously, and can put a definite 
 scheme before this Association, the Council would, I 
 think, be willing to co-operate and to assist by, say, 
 the supplying of seed and machinery, or in other ways. 
 If the pioneering work proves successful, and estab- 
 lishei! the fact that cotton can lie economically produced 
 in Australia, then arrangements can Ije maile for 
 further developments on commercial lines. 
 
 I may, however, tell you, to prevent any disappoint- 
 ment or misunderstanding, that the Council have very 
 little hope of cotton being economically produced in 
 large quantities in Australia generally, and are not 
 prepared to sink any large amount of money in experi- 
 ments in that part of the world. In our opinion, should 
 we have low prices of cotton as we have at the moment, 
 and which will reciu' again from time to time, it is 
 almost impossible for Australia with her dear lal)ourto 
 produce cotton to sell at a profit, or to compete with 
 those comitries where there are large supplies of cheap 
 coloured labour. Unless cotton proves a profltalile crop 
 for the farmer, it is no use wasting time and money in 
 trying to extend its cultivation in Australia. 
 
 Yours, &c., 
 
 J. A. Htjtton. 
 
 V/rc-('liiiiriii(in. 
 
 J. Bottom LEY, Es([. 
 
 c/o Department of Agriculture, 
 Brisbane, Queensland. Australia. 
 
 Enclosure 2. 
 
 EXTEACX from Mr. Htjtton's Letter to 
 Mr. BoTTOSTLET, dated 24th March, 190-5. 
 
 (In acknowledging his letters of January 20th, 26th, 
 and 27th.) 
 
 " I have already written you that in view of the 
 difficulties of labour, &c., this Association does not feel 
 inclined to undertake on its own account any work in 
 Australia, but at the same time if any of the Groveni- 
 ments ai'e prepared to initiate a series of experimental 
 work with a view to the ultimate establishment of 
 cotton-growing, this Association would be very glad 
 to co-operate as far as possible, and, if necessary, to 
 contribute something towards the expenses of the 
 same." 
 
 Enclosure 3. 
 
 Extract from Mr. Hutton's Letter of 
 April 27th, 190.!), to Mr. John Bottomley. 
 
 (Acknowledging Mr. Bottomley 's letter of March 11th.) 
 
 " As regards the pioneering work, I think I have 
 not made myself jierfectly clear. If the Government 
 is prepared to undertake the jjioneering work, we are 
 prepared to assist and <'(>operate with them and not 
 to wait until it is demonstrated that cotton can be 
 grown to commercial advantage. To put it in other 
 words, if any of the Australian Governments will take 
 this matter up seriously we shall be prepared to supply 
 seed and ginning machinery, and possibly some small 
 money grants. What we want to ascertain is whether 
 cotton can or cannot be grown at a profit, and we feel 
 that it is only right that the expense of this experi- 
 mental work should lie shared between the Government 
 and this Association. When it has been sufficiently 
 demonstrated that there is a reasonable chance of 
 profit for the cultivator, then of course we shall have 
 to consider the best means of placing the whole of the 
 industry on a commercial basis." 
 
 Enclosure 4. 
 
 Extract from Letter from Mr. Hutton to 
 Mr. Bottomley. dated May Itjth, 190.".. 
 
 (Acknowledging Mr. Bottomley's letter of 24th March.) 
 " You refer in your letter to our decision to under- 
 take no work in Australia except through the various 
 Governments, but of course if you are able to submit 
 any proposals which you think might be useful, they 
 will have the careful consideration of the Committee. 
 At the same time, these proposals would have very 
 much more weight if they were backed up by the 
 Government authorities. 
 
 " As regards the question of the emi)lo3'ment of 
 coloured labour in Australia, the Committee do not see 
 their way to make any protest against the present 
 policy of the Australian Governments. We feel that 
 it might be looked upon as an unjustifiable interference 
 in a political question." 
 
 Enclosure 5. 
 
 Extract from Mr. Hutton's Letter of 
 
 December 10th, 1906. 
 
 (Acknowledging letter from the Agent-General for 
 
 Queensland of December 8th.) 
 
 •■ I hardly think it probable that Lancashire will he 
 inclined to invest money in growing cotton in Queens- 
 land as owing to the importation of coloured labour 
 being prohibited it is improliable that that counti-y will 
 ever be able to produce cotton on a large scale at a 
 sufficiently low cost to enalile it to compete witli West 
 and East Africa. 
 
 •• and I can assure yon that if this 
 
 Association can assist cotton-growing in Queensland 
 in any way, their services are at the disposal ,of the 
 Government." 
 
 P :?
 
 lU 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: 
 
 Enclosure G. 
 
 Depai-tment of Agriculture and Stock, 
 Brisbane. 
 giE 2Sth January 1907. 
 
 I HAVE the honour to acknowledge the receipt of 
 yoTO- letter of the 21st ultimo, covering a copy of a 
 lett«r from the British Cotton Growing Association on 
 the subject of cotton-growing in QueensLind. and. in 
 reply, to inform you that the Association's letter has 
 entirely confinned the impression formed by this 
 Department of the intentions of the Association to 
 direct their energies to counti-ies where black or cheap 
 labour is available, owing to a belief that cotton caimot 
 \je profitably cultivated by white or European labour. 
 In this connection it is desired that you will have the 
 goodness to take eveiy step possible to dispel that 
 Ulusion, for illusion it is. No one argues that maize 
 cannot be cultivated by white labour for the reason 
 that maize has been so cultivated since Australia was 
 settled. Cotton is no more irksome than maize and 
 the returns are much better, present experience showing 
 that upon a thousand lb. crop to the acre the nett 
 profit exceeds that of maize by about "2?. 8.?. The 
 average given, moreover, is a small one when .judged by 
 last s^son when the return reached 2,300 lbs. to the 
 acre in instances. The area under cotton is gradually 
 increasing, and as there is a profitable market in 
 Australia for aU that can be grown for some time to 
 come, the assistance of the British Cotton Growing 
 Association will not be invoked for the p\u-pose of 
 finding a market, but it is not well that the idea that 
 cotton cannot be profitably cultivated, excepting by 
 coloured labour, should remain undisputed. , 
 
 I have, &c.. 
 The Acting Secretary, 
 Queensland Government Offices. Under Secretary. 
 
 would not realise that a price of 63d. per lb. in Liver- 
 pool does not mean G^rf. net. "We are, however, anxious 
 to do all we can to help in the matter, and should very 
 much regret if this misunderstanding should cause an 
 unnecessary amount of trouble. 
 
 I explained the matter to the members of the 
 Executive Committee, and I am glad to say they fully 
 approve of the proposal I made yesterday to alter our 
 offer to Ghd. per lb. net. They suggest that the offer 
 should be confined to Liverpool, as there is no object 
 in sending cotton to London, as it only causes 
 additional expense in transporting it to Liverpool, 
 where it is sold. 
 
 I therefore propose that Clause 14j of my letter of 
 October 2.5th should read as follows : — 
 
 •' For a period of three years, dated from July 1st, 
 1914, the Association will guarantee a minimum 
 nett price in Liverpool of 6i(/. per lb. for all 
 cotton forwarded to them for sale, and which 
 shall have been pi-oduced from an annual 
 variety grown from seed issued by the Govern- 
 ment, and which shall be shipi>ed in a clean 
 and merchantable condition. Any sm-plus 
 which may be obtained over the above men- 
 tioned price of (i!td. per lb. after deduction of 
 insurance, brokerage, port and harbour dues, 
 interest, and other out-of-pocket charges, will 
 be remitted to the planter. It is stipulated 
 that this offer does not app)ly to any cotton 
 grown from perennial varieties or from ratooned 
 cotton." 
 Hoping that this may prove a satisfactory solution 
 of the difficxilty. 
 
 Tours, ic. * 
 
 J. ARTHUR HUTTON, 
 
 Chairman. 
 The Secretary, 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission, 
 
 Enclosui-e 7. 
 
 The British Cotton Growing Association, 
 Manchester, 
 Sir, March 14th, 1907. 
 
 I AM much obliged for your letter of March 12tli. 
 with a copy of the letter received from the Department 
 of Agriculture. 
 
 I am very glad to hear that cotton can be profitably 
 cultivated by white or Em-opean labour, and I am al.-io 
 "lad to hear that our assistance is not requii-ed in any 
 ■way, though it is needless to say that if we can help at 
 any time, in any way, we shall be only too glad to 
 do so. 
 
 I may mention that we have offered our services to 
 the Government of Queensland several times, and as 
 we have never had any encouragement to jiroceed further 
 in the matter, we were forced to the conclusion that our 
 assistance was not required, and it was for that reason 
 we have devoted om- principal energies to those coun- 
 tries where black or cheap labour is available, and not 
 because of the belief that cotton could not be profitably 
 cultivated liy white or European labour. We have 
 been always wUing at all times to caiTy out expeii- 
 ments in various parts of the world, even though we 
 thought that they might be failui-es. Our desire has 
 been to " prove " countries with the object of extension 
 later on. 
 
 I am. &.C., 
 The Agent-General for J. Arthur Hctton, 
 Queensland, Chnirmun. 
 
 London. 
 
 2. 
 
 The British Cotton Growing Association, 
 
 l."), Cross Street. Manchester. 
 DE.A.R Sir, 14th Novemter. 1913. 
 
 With reference to our conversation yesterday, 
 I should be much obliged if you would explain to the 
 members of the Commission tliat I am sorry that I 
 should have in any way caused a misunderstanding as 
 to our guarantee of a minimum price. We are always 
 accustomed to think in Liverpool tei-ms, and I should 
 have remembered that the memliers of the Commission 
 
 3. 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission, 
 Scotland House, Victoria Embankment. 
 London, S.W. 
 Sir. 20th November 1913. 
 
 I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions 
 Royal Commission to inform you that yom- letter of 
 Octolier 2.">th. and yoiu- further letter of November 14tli. 
 were considered l)y the membei-s of the Commission at 
 a meeting on Saturday, November l.'Jth. 
 
 At this meeting, the Commission had before tliem 
 a memorandum from the Director of the Imiierial 
 Institute strongly recommending acceptance of the 
 projjosals of the British Cotton Growing Association. 
 
 They were also furnished by the Official Secretary 
 to the High Commissioner's Office. Commonwealth of 
 Australia, and by the Agent-General for Queensland, 
 with copies of telegi-ams between themselves and their 
 respective Governments, from which it appeared : — 
 («) that the Commonwealth Government were 
 willing to divert the contribution of 500/. 
 originally promised ; and 
 (b) that the Queensland Government were ready to 
 provide the sum of '001. ; 
 as contributions to the salaiy of a specialist to he 
 attached to the Queensland Agricultural Department 
 for thi-ee years in order to make experiments in 
 cotton-growing and to give practical instruction to 
 growers. 
 
 In view of the fact that sufficient money had been 
 assured to pay for the services of an adviser on cotton- 
 growing for a period of years, and in view of the 
 jjroposals made m your letters under reference, which 
 seemed to the Conrmission generous and satisfactoiy, 
 the members felt that it only remained for them to 
 recommend strongly to the Commonwealth and 
 Queensland Governments that the offer of the Britisli . 
 Cotton Growing Association should be accepted, details 
 being left for adjustment between the Association and 
 the Govei'nraents concerned. 
 
 This recommendation they have now made. 
 But they wish to thank the Executive Committee 
 of the British Cotton Growing Association for the 
 readiness with which the Association has met their
 
 NATURAL KESOUROES : COTTON-GROWING. 
 
 115 
 
 suggesfcious for co-operation between the Association 
 and the Commonwealth and State Grovernments, and 
 they desire to add that they ai-e gratified to find that 
 their inquiries with reference to the possibilities of 
 cotton-growing in Australia have led so rapidly to 
 practical action of vast potential importance. 
 I am, &c.. 
 The Chairman, E. J. HARDING. 
 
 British Cotton Growing Association, 
 Manchester. 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission to (1) the Official 
 
 Secketaey, High Commissioner's Office, 
 
 CoMMONWEAiTH OP AUSTRALIA and (2) the Agent- 
 
 Geneeal for Queensland. 
 
 Dominions Royal Commission, Scotland House, 
 Victoria Embankment. London, S.W. 
 Sir, 20th November, 1913. 
 
 I AM directed by the Chaiiman of the Dominions 
 Royal Commission to enclose, for your information, a 
 copy of a letter from the British Cotton Growing 
 Association, in which some modification is suggested 
 in the proposals contained in the previous letter of 
 October 25th (of which a copy has ah-eady been sent 
 to you) with regard to cotton-growing in Australia. 
 
 The two letters from the British Cotton Growing 
 Asssociation, with a memoiundum on the same subject 
 from the Director of the Imperial Institute (of which 
 a copy is enclosed), were considered by the Commission 
 at a meeting on November 15th, and the members 
 present were unanimous in thinking that the proposals 
 of the Association were generous and satisfactory. 
 
 They were gi-atified to learn, from a perusal of the 
 telegrams between yourself and the [1. Commonwealth] 
 
 [2. Queensland] Government and between [1. The 
 Agent-General for Queensland] [2. Captain Muirhead 
 CoUins] and the [1. Queensland] [2. Commonwealth] 
 Government, of which cojjies had teen furnished to 
 them, that the two Governments were prepared to 
 contribute the reniainder of the sum required to 
 jirocure the sei-vices of an agriculturist with special 
 erperience in cotton-growing, to be attached to the 
 Queensland Agricultural Department for a term of 
 years in order to conduct a series of experiments as 
 suggested by the British Cotton Growing Association 
 and also to give practical instruction to growers. 
 
 The Commission felt that, as matters had advanced 
 to this stage, it only remained for them strongly to 
 recommend both to the Commonwealth and the Queens- 
 land Governments that the proposals of the British 
 Cotton Growing Association should be accepted in 
 their entirety, details being left for adjustment between 
 the Governments and the Association. 
 
 This recommendation they now make, and they 
 hope to learn before the close of their inquiries that 
 the cotton industry is well on its way to successful 
 establishment in Australia. 
 
 Tlie members of the Commission desire also to 
 record their appreciation of the readiness to meet their 
 suggestions for co-operation shown by the Common- 
 wealth and Queensland Governments and by the 
 British Cotton Growing Association ; they are pleased 
 to find that so speedy and practical a result haa 
 followed their investigations into this most important 
 subject. 
 
 I am, &c., 
 
 E. J. HARDING. 
 
 (1) The Official Secretary, 
 
 High Commissioner's Office, 
 Commonwealth of Australia. 
 
 (2) The Agent-General for Queensland, 
 
 P i
 
 116 
 
 INDEX OF NAMES. 
 
 [Numbers preceded Viy q. refer to number of question of evidence, and number preceded by p. to 
 
 number of page.] 
 
 BILES. Professor Sir JOHN HARVARD, LL.D.. 
 D.Sc, memorandum on the economic size and speed 
 of steam vessels - - - - p. 90-93 
 
 CEABB, EDWARD, C,B., Second Secretary of the 
 
 General Post Office - - - - q. 221-560 
 
 All-Red mail route via Canada and Vancouver 517-20 
 
 Australian mails, speed question - 486-500, 521-5, 
 
 558-9 
 
 /~1 i TIT 15' SI • 
 
 Atlantic - p. 12. 241-2, 244-5, 261, 288-92, 334-5, 
 
 341-6 
 
 Atlantic, State-owned p. 11-12, 238, 293-300, 
 
 328-33, 347-52. 353-8, 379-89 
 
 Cable-letters p. 11, 254-6, 258-60, 263-70, 
 
 318-23, 324-7, 338-40 
 
 Codes p. 11, 246, 316-7 
 
 Deferred messages - p. 11. 246, 248-53, 263-70, 
 
 285-7, 336-7 
 North America, Post Office obligations re traffic 
 
 to p. 11. 279-83 
 
 Pacific - p. 11, 226-32, 262, 301-3, 313-5, .359 
 Reduction of rates in various services and results 
 261, 271-8, 304-12, 341-6 
 Reduction of rates question - - p. 11-2 
 
 Subsidies p. 11. 233-6 
 
 ILviLS : 
 
 Cape route - 411-7. 444-6. 476, 502-3. 561-5 
 
 Contracts - - p. 20-1, 387-401. 466-9. 504-11. 
 
 516, 538-9, 541-6, 549-67 
 
 Overland route 402-10 
 
 Services ■ p. 21-3, 383-6, 424-9, 462-5, 480-5, 
 
 526, 558-9 
 Siberian route ---.-- 431-6 
 Steamships burning oil - - - 528-52 
 
 Suez route 476-9 
 
 United States system - - - 437-43 
 
 P. & O. mail contract - - p. 20-1. 418-9. 504-5. 
 
 533-10, 512-5, 521-6, 527, 547-8 
 
 "Wireless ...... 363-73 
 
 GODDARD, STANLEf J., European representative 
 
 of "Western Union Telegi-aph Co. - q. 714-861 
 
 Anglo-American Telegraph Cf>. - - 777-9, 781 
 
 Atlantic Cables : 
 
 Australian ti-affic ..... 821-4 
 
 Further facilities, question - - - 802-3 
 
 Number ....... 716-8 
 
 Rates ...... 763—76 
 
 Rates, reduction question - 715, 804-13, 760-2 
 
 Atlantic State-owned cable .... 815-6 
 
 Cables : 
 
 Charge by letter, question - • 794-7, 847-9 
 
 Codes - 715, 749-57, 798-800, 839-41, 859-61 
 Deferred messages ..... 842-6 
 Night cable letters .... 715, 743-6 
 W"eek-end messages - 715, 739-44, 842-6, 851-8 
 Direct United States Telegraph Co, - - 780 
 Western Union 715, 719-38, 747, 771-6, 782-93, 831-7 
 
 HIBBERDINE, WILLIAM, Traffic Accountant to 
 the Eastern Telegraph Company. Ltd., the Eastern 
 and South African Telegraph Company, Ltd.. and 
 the Eastern Extension Australasia and China 
 Telegraph Company, Ltd., see Pender, Sir John 
 Denison, and Hibberdine, William q. 862-1146 
 
 PARK, Captain J. B., Principal Emigi-ation Officer 
 for the London District - - - q. 1-220 
 
 Emigration : 
 Agents - 2-6, 9-12, 11-20, 23-7, 31-3, 62-76, 77, 
 82-90, 109-15, 111-2, 116-39 
 Contracts not specifying name of ship or date of 
 
 saiHng 97-108 
 
 Misrepresentation - - 27-30, 36-7, 91-6 
 
 Passage brokers 2, 6-10, 35, 36-41, 43-52, 60-1, 
 78-81, 110-5, 129-36, 138-9 
 Voyage : 
 
 Abuses during .... 186-94 
 
 Hospital accommodation 140, 157, 164, 170-3, 
 
 199-204, 207-12 
 Infectious diseases 140-58, 174-9, 205-6. 213-5 
 Matrons - - - 164^5, 167-9, 195-8 
 
 PARK. Captain J. B. — continued. 
 Emigration — continued. 
 Voyage — ccnitimied. 
 
 Privacy - - - - - - 164 
 
 Separation of the sexes 159-63. 181-5, 199-201, 
 
 207-12 
 Stewards 166, 216-20 
 
 PENDER. Sir JOHN DENISON-. and HIBBER- 
 DINE, WIXLIAM. Eastern Telegraph Co., Ltd., 
 Eastern and South African Telegraph Co., Ltd.. 
 and Eastern Extension Australasia and China 
 Telegraph Co.. Ltd. - - - - q. 862-1146 
 
 Cables : 
 
 Accuracy and speed more important to business 
 
 men than cost .... 1059-61 
 
 Charge by letters .... 1145-6 
 
 Codes 911-4, 947 
 
 Day cable letters to Far East and question - 866, 
 
 939-41 
 Defen-ed messages 865, 866, 922-3, 926-7, 944-7 
 
 Far East traffic 1108-11 
 
 Week-end cable letters 866, 878-9, 882-7, 918, 
 922, 928-35, 942. 979, 995, 1000-26, 1042-7, 
 
 1087-95 
 
 Eastern Companies : 
 
 Australian traffic, routes - 865, 889-99, 909-10 
 Canvassing ...... 1123 
 
 Capacity .... 865, 900-10, 976-8 
 
 Co-operation with Pacific Cable Board - 865, 
 
 991-2. 1096-100 
 Cost of laying cables - 867-75, 969-71, 1141^ 
 Dividend and capital - - . - 1133-6 
 
 Fao route 866, 1035-41 
 
 Improvements - - 865-6, 876, 1062-5. 1140 
 Press traffic - 865. 980-1, 112.5-30. 1075-9 
 Rates and traffic 685. 914-6, 936-7, 956-62. 964^5, 
 996-9, 1027-34. 1052-3, 1066, 1082-3, 1112-22 
 Reserve funds - - - 867, 1101-2, 1134 
 Revenue (Australia) .... 1084-5 
 
 Social code - - 948-54, 1067-9, 1070-1 
 Traffic 974-5 
 
 International Telegraphic Convention - 947, 982-90 
 
 PIRRIE. Right Hon. LORD. K.P.. memorandum on 
 the development of harboui-s from the point of 
 \new of shipowners and shipbuilders - p. 99-100 
 
 PRIMROSE, The Right Hon. Sib HENRY, K.C.B., 
 C.S.I., Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board 
 
 q. 566-713 
 
 Atlantic cables 573, 704-9 
 
 Atlantic State-owned cable - - 658-9, 692-8 
 Eastern Telegraph Company - - . . 595-6 
 
 Cables : 
 
 Deferred messages - - - 582-5, 699-700 
 PRcific ' 
 
 Capacity - - - 586-94, 635-8, 672-81 
 
 Rates, policy 597-9 
 
 Rates, reduction, question 580-1, 603, 630—1, 
 
 655-7, 661-4, 688-90 
 Traffic increase, question of increase of staff 
 
 626-9, 665-7, 710-3 
 Press - - - 573-7, 614, 616-23, 680-8 
 
 Traffic and rates p. 29, 568-72, 578-9, 615, 624-5. 
 
 641-54, 697 
 Week-end - - 402, 580, 582, 604-13, 699-703 
 Wireless 668-71 
 
 SNOW, E. C. M.A.. D.Sc. - - - p. 58-86 
 Agricultural labour in England - - p. 66-7 
 
 Effect of migration on production and consumption 
 
 p. 67-8 
 Emigration : 
 
 Association between external trade and, question 
 of ------ - p. 61-4 
 
 Effect on British trade, question of - p. 59-61 
 
 Migration from, and external trade of, the United 
 
 Kingdom, 1876-1911 p. 75 
 
 Population, tables ----- p. 76-86 
 Population and vital statistics and estimates of future 
 popvdations ----- p. 69-75 
 Relationship between emigration from, or immigra- 
 te, a countiy, and general prosperity there p. 64-6
 
 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 
 
 117 
 
 INDEX OF SlBJECrS. 
 
 Aberdeen Line, Thompson, Geo., & Co., Ltd., mail 
 service, Crabb - - - . . p, 22, q. .5.59 
 
 Agricultural labour in England, state of, Snow p. 66-7 
 All-Red Mail Route, see under Mails. 
 Anglo-American Telegraph Company, see under Cables. 
 Atlantic Cables, see under Cables. 
 
 Australia : 
 
 see also Australasia. 
 
 Attitude re Suez Canal tolls - - - - p. 104 
 
 Cables, see that title. 
 Cotton Cultivation : 
 
 Experimental work, suggestion and offer Ijy 
 
 British Cotton Growing Association ji. 112-3 
 
 Ginnuig and baling should be under Government 
 
 control - - - - - - - p. 112 
 
 Letters of British Cotton Growing Association 
 re, 1913, and reply - - - P- 111-5 
 Seed supply should be entirely in hands of Govern- 
 ment p. 112 
 
 Ty|)es, suggestions re ■ - - - p. 112 
 
 Exports from United Kingdom, more closely associ- 
 ated with emigration from United Kingdom than 
 are imports. Snow - - - - - p. 64 
 
 Exports from United Kingdom, net migration 
 from United Kingdom and imports into United 
 Kingdom, 1878-1910, Snow - p. 61-2, p. 63 
 High Commissioner's Office, letter from Royal Com- 
 mission, 1913, re British Cotton Growing Associa- 
 tion's oft'er to - - - - - - p. 11-5 
 
 Immigration : 
 
 Consuming power per head rises when immigra- 
 tion active and is low when immigration slack. 
 
 Snoiv p. 69 
 
 CoiTelation with marriage rate. Snow - p. 65 
 
 CoiTelation with prosperity. Snow - - p. 66 
 Production and consumption increased during 
 period of active immigration, but no proof of 
 direct connection, Snow ■ - - • P- 59 
 Prodviction per head believed to incrrase with. 
 
 Snow p. 69 
 
 from United Kingdom : 
 
 Actual migration and migration smoothed, 
 1904-1911, Snow - - - - p. 61 
 
 Correlations between fluctuations in, and exports 
 and imports, Snotc - - p. 62-3, p. 64 
 Index of consumption, of depositors, of average 
 amount of depiosits. of deposit per head of popula- 
 tion, and average net immigration, 1903-7 to 1911. 
 
 Snow p. 68 
 
 Lower freight rates from Continent than from United 
 
 Kingdom p. 110, p. Ill 
 
 Mails, see that title. 
 
 Melbourne, Port Phillip Heads, deepening of en- 
 trance, Pirrie • • - ■ ■ - p. 99 
 
 Population : 
 
 Birth, death, immigration and total increase rates 
 
 in decennial periods from 1861, Snow - p. 78 
 Births, deaths, and net immigration in decennial 
 
 periods from 1861, Snoiv - ■ - p. 77 
 Birth-rate of certain populations iu 1911, according 
 
 to birthplace. Snow . - . . p. 83 
 
 Census populations under and over 15, since 1861, 
 
 Snow P- 76 
 
 Death-rate, Snow ■ ■ - - - P- '2 
 Death-rate of natives and immigrant populations, 
 
 Swow. - - - - -. - . P- ''2-i 
 Excess of unmarried males over unmarried females 
 
 in age-groups, 1901, 1911, Snow ■ - p. 81 
 Excess of unmarried males, 1901, 1911, Snow p. 71 
 Fertility of native and immigrant population, 
 
 Snow p. 72 
 
 Fertility rates, Shou' - - - - - p. lO 
 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 
 
 15-45, 1861-1911, iS«0M'- - - - p._79 
 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation 
 
 of population of various countries in 1921, Snow 
 
 p. 84 
 
 E 20830 
 
 Australia — contin ued. 
 Population — continued. 
 
 Moi-tality, 1911, according to birthplace. Snow 
 
 p. 83 
 
 Mortality, 1911, according to length of residence. 
 
 Snow - - • - - - - p. 84 
 
 Number of births per man-iage in previous year, 
 
 1861-1911, Snow p. 79 
 
 Number of mamed males and females to evei-y 
 total 100 males and 100 females in age groups 
 
 1901, 1911, Snow p. 80 
 
 Number of men and women between certain age 
 
 limits according to birthplace, 1911. and births 
 
 to each group. Snow - ■ - - p. 72 
 
 Percentage increase in intercensal periods since 
 
 1861, Snow p. 77 
 
 Population in 1921. estimate of, Snow ■ p. 85 
 Population in 1931, estimate of. Snow - p. 86 
 Pi'oportion of married people. Snow - - p. 70 
 Proportion of total, in age-groups, 1911, Snow 
 
 p. 72 
 Proportion of total, under 15, 1861-1911, Snow 
 
 p. 77 
 Population, production, and production per head, 
 
 1906-11, Snow p. 68 
 
 Preferential duty, amended provisions for wire goods 
 recommended - - - - - - p. Ill 
 
 Shipping, see under Shipping. 
 
 Australasia : 
 
 Average exports from, and imports to. United 
 Kingdom, 1878-1911. Snow - - - p. 63 
 
 Immigration from United Kingdom, exports from 
 United Kingdom, and imports to:United Kingdom, 
 1876-1911, Snow - - -' - - p. 75 
 
 Population : 
 
 Fertility rate. Snow ■ - ■ - - p. 70 
 
 Rate of increase, diminishing, Snoto - - p. 70 
 Steamship services, importance of acceleration, and 
 
 suggestions p. 105 
 
 White population, imports from and exports to. 
 
 United Kingdom per head. 1891. 1901, 1911, Snow 
 
 p. 60 
 
 Barrau, Sir John. M.P., reference - - - p. 98 
 
 Bethell, Gwyn. and Company, London line, mail ser- 
 vice, Crabb - - - - - , - p. 22 
 
 Bombay, lower freight i-ates to, from Hambvu-g than 
 from Loudon - - - - - - p. 110 
 
 British Cotton Growing Association, letters to Royal 
 Commission, 1913, re cotton cultivation in Australia, 
 and offer of assistance, and reply - - p. 111-5 
 
 British Imperial Council of Commerce, see Imperial 
 Coimcil of Commerce. 
 
 British North America, see Canada. 
 
 Cables : 
 
 Accuracy and speed more important to business men 
 than cost, Pender, q. 1059-60, q. 1061 ; Hibberdine, 
 q. 1060-1. 
 
 All-British cable communication, memorandum of 
 Imperial Council of Commerce - - p. 97-9 
 
 All-British chain, need for, estimated cost, &c. 
 
 p. 106-7 
 
 Anglo-American Telegraph Company : 
 
 Damage to and breakage of cables - p. 95-6 
 
 Dividends, Goddard - - - q- 777-9, q. 781 
 Position of p. 93 
 
 Atlantic .- 
 
 see also Commercial Cable Company, and Western 
 
 Union Company below. 
 British conti-ol, extent of - - - - p. 98 
 Codes, artificial, use of, and difficulty re trans- 
 mission -...-. p. 94-5 
 Competition and impossibility of combination to 
 raise rates, Crabb - - ■ - p. 12, q. 244 
 Control by Imperial Government - - p. 12 
 Foreign control - - - p. 106, p. 107 
 
 Q
 
 118 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 
 
 CaWeS — continued. 
 Atlantic — continued. 
 
 Length and earning capacity compared with cable 
 
 between Gi-eat Britain and France ■ 
 Liability to damage and breakage 
 Number, Goddard . . ■ ■ 
 Operating expenses, increase 
 Post Office control, extent of, Crabb 
 
 p. 94 
 p. 95-6 
 q. 716-8 
 - p. 94 
 q. 241-2, 
 q. 290-2 
 Question of wii-eless development in connection 
 
 with P- 98-9 
 
 Rates : 
 
 by Both groups generally the same, with excep- 
 tion of press rates, Crabh - - q. 334r-b 
 Reduction : 
 
 Effect on traffic and revenue, Crahb, q. 261, 
 
 q. 341-6 ; Primrose, q. 573. 
 Increase in ti-affic from Pacific would not 
 enable. Goddard - - q. 715, q. 804-13 
 
 1911, 1912, 1913 p. 94 
 
 Question as to likelihood of, in futm-e, Crabb, 
 
 q. 245 ; Primrose, q. 705-9. 
 
 Question of effect of, on Anglo-American 
 
 Telegraph Company and Direct United 
 
 States Cable Company if lease by Westeni 
 
 Union declared illegal - - ■ p. 93 
 
 Question of further, Goddard q. 715, q. 760-2 
 
 Commercial Cable Company - p. 93-7 
 
 Threat by English and Canadian Postmasters 
 
 Greneral of State-owned cable - - p. 94 
 
 6rf. a word at one time and subsequent increase, 
 
 Goddard q. 763-70 
 
 no Understanding between i-ival combinations 
 
 known of. Crabb - - - - q. 288-9 
 
 Speed and acciuacy of service, Postmaster- General 
 
 quoted re, 1911 p. 96 
 
 Terminals of 13 cables on British tei-ritory, and 
 
 possibility of occupation in case of emergency. 
 Traffic to and from Austi-alia divided evenly 
 between Commei-cial Company and Westeni 
 Union Company, Goddard - - q. 821-4 
 Week-end : 
 
 Arrangement for earlier deliveries at terminal 
 ends, might be possible in future. Goddard 
 
 q. 715, q. 739-42, q. 851 
 Delivered as received. Hibberdine - q. 1047 
 Atlantic, State-owned : 
 
 Administi-ation question, Crabb - - q. 357-8 
 Austi-alasian traffic would not be supplemented 
 by adequate amount of North American, Crabb 
 p. 11, q. 239, q. 29:3-5, q. 328-31 
 existing Cables would not be affected. Goddard 
 
 q. 815-6 
 from Commercial point of view, not justified, 
 
 Crabb P- H 
 
 from Commercial point of view, not wanted and 
 would not 1)6 remunerative, Primrose q. 1)58-9 
 
 estimated Cost P- 98 
 
 estimated Deficit, Crabb, p. 11, q. 238, q. 296-300, 
 
 q. 329, q. 353-6, q. 380-1 ; Primrose, q. 692-8. 
 
 Duplicate cable, question of - - - P- ''8 
 
 Greneral Post Office memoi-andum in reply to 
 
 arguments for - - - - - p. 12 
 
 Intemiptions more frequent in Atlantic than in 
 
 Pacific, and double cable would be necessary, 
 
 Crabb p. 12, q. 349-50 
 
 Memorandum of Imperial Council of Commerce re 
 
 p. 97-9 
 Opposition by Post Office, reasons, Crabb q. 347-52 
 Possibility of wireless development an additional 
 aa-gument against, Crabb p. 12, q. 347, 379 
 
 Postmaster-Greneral quoted re. 1911 - - p. 96 
 Report of Inter-Departmental Committee on Cable 
 Communication, 1902 - - - - p. 95 
 
 Revenue that would be brought to, by Pacific 
 cable traffic, and estimated cost. Crabb p. 11, 
 
 q. 238 
 
 no Satisfactory evidence that reduction in rate 
 
 would result in expansion of traffic to increase 
 
 net revenue. Crabb- - - - - p. 11 
 
 would Use taxpayers' money to caiTy on business 
 at a loss - - - - - - p. 95 
 
 Australian : 
 
 Atlantic jiortion of i-ate, and comparison with 
 
 p. 93-4 
 
 Cables — -continued. 
 Australian — continued. 
 
 Daily cable letters, impossibility of, Hibberdine 
 
 q 939-41 
 Deferred messages, see that title below. 
 Eastern and Eastern Extension and Australasia 
 
 and China Telegraph Cos.. see that title below. 
 Numbei-s of words exchanged between Australasia 
 and Europe and America by Pacific and Eastern 
 routes at different rates, Primrose, 1886-1912 
 
 p. 29 
 Pacific : 
 
 Board, amount received fey, considered fair in 
 proportion to amount received by Atlantic 
 companies, Crabb - - - - q- 301-3 
 Colonial Office assiu-ance to Eastern Telegi'aph 
 Co. that cable was to be worked on com- 
 mercial lines and at remunerative rates, 
 Crabb, p. 11, q. 229-32; Primrose, q. 597. 
 Commimicatiou with Sydney " Sun " re press 
 tariff. Primrose - - - - q- 614 
 
 Co-opei-ation with Eastern Company, see under 
 
 Eastern and Eastern Extension. &.c„ beloic. 
 
 Created to furnish alternative route to meet 
 
 desire for lower cable rates, Crabb q. 226-32 
 
 Distribution of traffic between Westeni Union 
 
 and Commercial Cable Company. Primrose 
 
 q. 704 
 
 no increased Facilities recommended at present, 
 
 but might be possible in future, Primrose q. 603 
 
 Increase of ti-affic, question as to need for 
 
 increase of staff, Primrose - - q. 626-9, 
 
 q. 665-7, q. 710-3 
 Increased ti-affic gi-eater on American business 
 than on Eui-opean, Primrose - - q. 697 
 Loss decreasing - - - - - p. 95 
 Maximum capacity and present t!*affic and 
 amount to which load factor could be reason- 
 ably increased, and opinion re remunerative 
 rate. Primrose - q. 586-94, q. 635-8, q. 672-81 
 Object of. Primrose - - - q. 600-1 
 Powei-8 re fixing of rates, Crabh - - q. 359 
 Rates : 
 
 see also Rates below. 
 
 Policy re. Primrose - - - q. 597-9 
 
 Reduction, fm-ther. would result in loss of 
 
 revenue. Primrose - - - q. 630-4 
 
 use of Wireless for messages across Canada 
 
 not taken up actively yet, but development 
 
 will be watched. Primrose - - q. 668-71 
 
 Night cable letters : 
 
 Impi-acticability of, Primrose • - q. 602 
 
 Suggestion. Goddard - - q. 715, q. 743-6 
 
 Particulars re i-ates and ti-affic. showing that 
 
 reductions not miide up for by increased traffic. 
 
 Primrose ----- q. 568-72 
 
 Press traffic, increase, Hibberdine - q. 1075-8 
 
 Rates : 
 
 between Austi-alia and San Fi-ancisco same as 
 between Australia and Vancouver, Primrose 
 
 q. 615 
 Comparison of, by Eastern and Pacific com- 
 panies, Pender, q. 966 ; Hibberdine, q. 966-9. 
 to Germany and Fi-ance, Primrose - q. 615 
 
 Press : 
 
 Reduction aud effect on traffic, 1901-1913, 
 
 Pritnrose - q. 573-7, q. 685-8, q. 616-23 
 
 not Remunerative, but work would be taken 
 
 to certain extent from point of view of 
 
 public policy. Primrose - - q. 680-4 
 
 Reduction : 
 
 Demand not justified, Commercial Cable Com- 
 pany ..... p. 96-7 
 to 4s., 1880. and subsequent increase to 4s. 9d., 
 explanation. Primrose - - - q. 568 
 Great increase of traffic doubted. Primrose 
 
 q. 655-7. q. 661-4, q. 688-90 
 
 would te Possible with working agreement 
 
 between Eastern and Pacific Companies. 
 
 Pender q. 960-2 
 
 no Restriction on business from present full 
 rates, and traffic would not be much in- 
 creased by reduction. Primrose q. 580-1 
 Terminal charge, reduction, reduction in rates 
 would result, Crabb - - - q. 314-5
 
 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 
 
 110 
 
 Cables — continued. 
 
 Adstraxian — continued. 
 Statement showing four weeks, 1912-3, ordinary 
 and deferred ordinary international traffic classi- 
 fied into private and business, Primrose q. 578-9 
 Terminal charge, reduction, suggestion by Post- 
 master General, 1911 - - - -p. !)(; 
 Week-end messages, see that title below. 
 Cable Letters, see Week-end messages below. 
 Capacity of short cable greater in proportion, 
 
 Goddard q. 825-9 
 
 Charge by letter or nimiber of letters, question of, 
 
 Goddard, q. 794-7, q, 847-9 ; Pender, q. 1145-6. 
 Codes : 
 
 Development in, resulting in material reduction of 
 i-ate, though nominal rate unaltered, Crubb 
 
 p. 11, q. 246 
 Difficulty of, Goddard - - q. 715, q. 749 
 
 Economy of words by, Crabb, q. 316-7 ; Goddard, 
 q. 750-3, q. 839-41, q. 859-61 ; Pender, q. 911-2 ; 
 Hibberdine. q. 912. 
 Espenditui-e by merchants on preparation, Hibber- 
 dine - - • - - - - q. 947 
 Commercial Cable Company: 
 
 Expenditm-e on maintenance and repairs 
 
 p. 95, p. 96 
 Landing licence, date of expiry, Crabb - p. 11 
 Memorandum ..... p. 93-7 
 
 Defereed : 
 
 Code not advocated, Hibberdine - - q. 946 
 
 Exclusion of code messages, justification, Crabb 
 
 p. 11, q. 246 
 Increase in traffic. Primrose - - q. 699-700 
 Natui-e of business. Primrose - - - q. 582 
 Provision of code for, by Post Office, difficulties, 
 
 q. 249-53 
 Rates, Pender - . - . - - q. 865 
 
 Reasons for Pacific cable carrying more than 
 
 Eastern, Peudei q. 926-7 
 
 Reduction of rates : 
 
 not Anticipated for some time, but question one 
 
 for Pacific Cable Board, Crubb - - p. 11 
 
 Business would be transferred from ordinary 
 
 category and consequent loss. Primrose q. 582-5 
 
 Registered address can be used, Crabb q. 336-7 
 
 Steps taken by Post Office to inform public of 
 
 facilities, Crabb - . - ■ ([■ 266-70 
 
 Success of, Crabb - - q. 263-5, q. 285-7 
 
 Use of dictionary code words, impracticability of, 
 
 Crabb, p. 11, q. 248 ; Pender, q. 866, q. 944-7. 
 Used by commercial houses aud wealthier classes, 
 not by poor man, for whom instituted - p. 97 
 Direct United States Cable Company, position of, 
 
 Goddard, q. 780 ; p. 93. 
 East Coast of Africa, subsidies, Crabb - ■ q. 234 
 Eastern and Eastern Extension and Austral- 
 asia AND China Telegraph Companies : 
 Agreement with Government of New South Wales 
 re opening of offices. Primrose - - q. 595 
 
 American traffic now carried by Pacific Company, 
 Hibberdine ..... q. 1115-6 
 Australian traffic : 
 
 1912, Hibberdine - - . - q. 974-5 
 
 Routes, Hibberdine ■ - - q. 889-99 
 
 Capacity, Pender, q. 865 ; Hibberdine. q. 900-10. 
 
 Capacity, and possibility of taking increased 
 
 traffic, Hibberdine - - - - q. 976-8 
 
 willing to Co-operate with Pacific Cable Board if 
 
 fair an-angements arrived at, Pender - q. 865 
 
 Co-operation with Pacific Company : 
 
 Failure to agree as to terms. Pender q. 991-2, 
 
 q. 1096-8. q. 1099, q. 1100 
 
 Feeling in Australia against, Hibberdine q. 992 
 
 former Negotiations re. and advantages to be 
 
 derived. Primrose - - . . 595-6 
 
 Cost of canvassing, Hibberdine • - q. 1123 
 
 Cost of laying cables, Pender, q. 867-70. q. 872-5, 
 
 q. 969-71, q. 1141-4; Hibberdine, q. 870-2. 
 Day cable letters to Far East cannot be con- 
 templated, Pender - - - . q. ggg 
 Defen-ed messages : 
 
 Dictionary code words, would be impracticalde, 
 and objections to, Pender • q. 866, q. 944-7 
 
 Rates, Pender q. 865 
 
 Dividend and capital, Pender - . q. 1133-6 
 E 20830 
 
 Cables — continued. 
 
 Eastern and Eastern Extension and Austral- 
 asia AND China Telegraph (Jompanies — 
 continued. 
 Duplication and triplication by different routes, 
 
 Pender q. 876. q. 1140 
 
 Empire Press Sen'ice, Hibberdine. q. 1078. q. 1 128- 
 
 30 ; Pender, q. 1130. 
 Fao route (Turkish), particulai-s re. rates and 
 
 traffic, Pender, q. 866; Hibberdine, q. 1035-41. 
 4 cables as compared with 1 of Pacific Company, 
 Hibberdine - - - . - - q. 968 
 
 constant Improvements in instruments, &c., and 
 expenditure, Pender - - - q. 865-6 
 Increase of speed, Pender - - - q- 1062-5 
 
 Letter to Australian and South African Govern- 
 ments re week-end messages, Hibberdine 
 
 q. 878-9 
 no Pooling agreement with Pacific Cable Board 
 except as regards rates. Hibberdine ■ q. l(J48-9 
 Position of, compared with Atlantic Companies 
 and Pacific Cable Board. Pender, q. S65, (j, 9U9-10 
 Press rates between South Africa and Australia, 
 Hibberdine ..... q. 1079 
 
 Press rates (Africa, India, Egypt), reductions 
 and effect on traffic, Hibberdine - q. 1075 
 
 Press rates, further reduction inijiracticable, 
 Pender - - - - ■ - - q. 865 
 
 Press sei-vice, arrangement with Renter's Tele- 
 gram Company, Pender - - - - q. 865 
 Press traffic, Hibberdine - q. 980-1. q. 1125-7 
 Rates : 
 
 History of, Hibberdine - - - q. 937 
 
 Plain language, increase of social traffic would 
 
 not result from reduction, Pender q. 914-6 
 
 Policy re, Pender q. 865 
 
 Reductions, Pender .... q. 865 
 
 not Reduced since 1902 owing to laying of 
 
 Pacific cable. Pender, q. 936-7, q. 960, q. 1066, 
 
 q. 1112-4, q. 1117-22 ; Hibberdine. q. 936, 
 
 q. 1052-3, q. 111.5-6. 
 
 Standard revenue agreements, Pender, q. 865, 
 
 q. 956-60, 964, q. 965, q. 1103-5 ; Hibberdine, 
 
 q. 964, q. 1082-3. 
 
 Reserve funds, Pender, q. 867, q. 1101-2. ((. 1134; 
 
 Hibberdine. q. 1102. 
 Revenue, 1909 and 1912, Hibberdine ■ q. li)84-5 
 Social code, but facilities little used. Hibberdine. 
 q. 948-54, q. 1068-9, q. 1073-4; Pender, 
 q. 1067-8, 1070-2. 
 to South Africa, particulars re rates and traffic, 
 Hibberdine - - - - - q- 1027-34 
 
 Week.end messages, see that title below. 
 Far East traffic, lines can-ying, Pender, q. Illi8-1(», 
 
 q. 1111 ; Hibberdine, q. 1110. 
 Gei-mau- Atlantic Co., Pe»der - - q. 1137 
 
 constant Improvements in instruments and apparatus, 
 
 Goddard q. 758-9 
 
 Increased traffic mainly in direction of deferred 
 telegrams and cable letters, Crabb - - q. 262 
 
 India : 
 
 Deferred, nature of business, Hibberdine - q. 923 
 Reductions of rates, effect on traffic, Crabb q. 261 
 North America, Post Office bound till 11*20 to give 
 to Anglo-American Company all telegrams 
 bearing no indicatiim of route, and explanation, 
 
 Crabb p. 11. q. 279-83 
 
 Press rates, reduction, demand unreasonaWe- p. 97 
 
 Rates : 
 
 Cheap, importance of .... p. 106 
 
 Reduction : 
 
 Initiative lies with Pacific Cable Board, Crabb 
 
 p. 11-2 
 Question as to increase of traffic as result, Crabb 
 
 q. 313-4 
 
 Subsidies not given hitherto with ^ew solely 
 
 to, with one exception. Crabb p. 11, q. 233-6 
 
 Sending of messages from England to New York 
 
 and from New York back to Continent in order to 
 
 get speedy service - - - - - p. 97 
 
 South Africa : 
 
 Defen-ed, nature of business, Hibberdine ■ q. 922 
 
 Reductions of rates and effect on traffic and 
 
 revenue, Crabb, q. 261, q. 271-8, q. 304-12; 
 
 Pender, q. 866. 
 
 R
 
 120 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 
 
 Cables — contimi ed. 
 
 South Africa — ^continued. 
 
 Treasury minute re proposals re subsidies, Crahh 
 
 q. 2;U 
 Speed of transmissiou quicker iu short cables and 
 with larger core, Ribberdine - - q. 1054-8 
 
 Week-end messages : 
 
 Advantages considered very real. Ooddard 
 
 q. 842-t! 
 
 Delivery on Monday, no practical difficulty, 
 
 Hibb'crdine - - - - - q. 1095 
 
 Delivery by telegram, objection. Primrose q, 604 
 
 Delivery on Tuesday : 
 
 Objection to insistence on, Pender, q. 928-9, 
 
 q, 1023-5 ; Ribberdine. 1020. 
 Reason, Pender, q. 995. q. lH-Ki; Hibberdine. 
 q. 1046. 
 Differences of opinion between Eastern Conipauies 
 and Pacific Cable Board, Pender q. 882-l{ ; Hib- 
 berdi)ie, q. 883. 
 Eai'lier delivery advocated, Pender - - q. 866 
 Exclusion of code messages, justification, Crabb 
 
 p. 11 
 Poiu- classes of, Hibberdine - - - q. 884 
 
 Inclusive charge for telegTaphiug. would be matter 
 for Pacific Cable Board, Goddnrd - - q. 858 
 Increase in traffic, Primrose - - q. 699-700 
 
 Nature of business. Ribberdine - q. 822, q, 928, 
 
 q,979 
 
 Object of. Primrose - - - - p. 605 
 
 Proposals re, Ribberdine - q. 1000-17. q. 1011, 
 
 q. 1015, q. 1021-2, q. 1087-94 
 
 Rates : 
 
 Reduction to 6d. per wor.l, no objection by 
 
 Post Office, but a matter fcr Pacific Cable 
 
 Board, Crabb - - - - q. 258-60 
 
 Reduction question. Crabb, p. 11 ; Primrose, 
 
 q. 582 ; Ooddard, q. 852-7. 
 
 Reduction of minimum number of words : 
 
 Objection, Pender - - q. 918, q. 604-13 
 
 to 12, Post Office attitude. Crahh - q. 254-5 
 to 20 : 
 
 Advocated, but not below, Ribberdine. q. 878. 
 
 q. 930-5 
 
 Agreed to by Pacific Cable Board in principle. 
 
 but single rate still under discussion. Crabb 
 
 p. 11 
 Registered addi-ess : 
 
 Can only be used if message delivered by 
 
 telegram, Crabb ■ - - ■ I- 338-40 
 
 Refusal of, reason, Ribberdine - - q. 942 
 
 not very Remunerative, Primrose - q. 701-3 
 
 Single rate for, to include telegraphic transmission 
 
 at both ends desired by Post Office, Crabb 
 
 q. 255-6. q. 321, q. 324-7 
 
 Steps taken by Post Ofiice to infoi-m public of 
 
 facilities. Crabb - ■ - q. 266-70, q. 318 
 
 Success of, Crabb - - - - q. 263-5 
 
 Telegraphing : 
 
 Desired, Hibberdine - - - q. 885-7 
 Government consent waited for, Hibberdine. 
 
 q. 1018-20 
 
 Traffic per week, Pacific Cable, Primrose - q. 580 
 
 West India and Panama Company, particulars re 
 
 subsidy to for reduction of rates, Crabb q. 234-6 
 
 Westben Union Compant: 
 
 Accounts, cable system not separated in, Goddard 
 
 q, 771-0 
 Code messages, about 80 per cent, of total, 
 
 Goddard q. 836-7 
 
 Codes allowed only on full rate service, Goddard 
 
 q. 754-7 
 
 Code supplied by, Ooddard - - q, 798-800 
 
 Deferred messages, advantages considered very 
 
 real, Goddard - - - - q. 842-6 
 
 Em-opean representative, see Goddard, Stanley J. 
 
 q. 714-801 
 if further Facilities, full-paid traffic may be 
 depleted, but hopes of making up, Goddard 
 
 q. 802-3 
 
 large Increase of traffic, question as to remunera- 
 
 tiveness, Goddard ■ ■ - I- 782-93 
 
 Large increase of Australian traffic, question of 
 
 i-ate at which ti-affic could be taken. Goddard 
 
 q. 726-38, q. 747, q. 782-3 
 
 Cables — continued. 
 
 Westekn Union Company — continued. 
 
 Lease of Anglo-American Telegraph Co. and 
 
 Direct United States Cable Companies by. 
 
 legality question - - - - - P- 98 
 
 Plain cables sent as handed in. and cjuestion of 
 
 sending in code, Goddard - - q. 831-3 
 
 Traffic, proportion of traffic for Pacific Cable 
 
 Board to total, Ooddard - - q. 804-5 
 
 large Unused capacity and possibility of handling 
 
 increase of traffic, Goddard q. 715, q. 719-27 
 
 Wireless competition, question of, Crabb - q. 347, 
 
 q. 374-9 ; p. 107 
 Canada : 
 
 All-Red Mail Route, see under Mails. 
 Average exports from, and imports to. United 
 Kingdom, 1870-1911, Sftoif - - - p. 63 
 Direct mail service and result - - - P- 88 
 Emigration to, fkom United Kingdom : 
 
 some cases of Misdescription, and action of trade 
 
 unions. Park - • - ■ - q. 27-30 
 
 Correlations between fluctuations in. and exports 
 
 and imports. Snow - - p. 02-3 ; p. 64 
 
 Exports fiom United Kingdom, and imports to 
 
 United Kingdom, 1876-1911, Snow ■ p. 75 
 
 Exports from United Kingdom more closely 
 
 associated with, than are imports. Snow - p 64 
 
 Exports from United Kingdom, net emigration 
 
 from United Kingdom, and imports into United 
 
 Kingdom. 1876-1911, Snow - - p. 61-2, p, 03 
 
 Freight rates : 
 
 Extracts from newspapers illustrating dissatisfac- 
 tion with conditions - - - - p. 108 
 Extracts from reports of H.M. Trade Commis- 
 missioners re high rates - - p. 109-10 
 
 Importance of ----- p, 110 
 
 Typical increases of - - - - p. 110 
 Mails, see that title. 
 
 Movement to and from United States, 1911-12, 
 1910-11, 1909-10, Snow - - - - p. 69 
 Population : 
 
 Birth, death, immigration, and total increase 
 rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snow 
 
 p. 78 
 
 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation 
 
 of population of various countries in 1921, Snow 
 
 p. 84 
 Percentage increase in intercensal periods since, 
 
 1801, Snow p. 77 
 
 Population estimated in 1921, Snow - p. 85 
 Populations estimated in 1931, Snow - p. 86 
 Proportion of total, under 15, 1861-1911. Snow 
 
 p. 77 
 
 Rate of increase of males and females. Snow p. 69 
 
 Rate of increase since 1901, Snow - - p, 70 
 
 Production statistics. Snow - - - p. 69 
 
 Shipping traffic, inward control by conference p. 103 
 
 White population, imports from, and exports to. 
 
 United Kingdom per head, 1891, 1901, 1911, Snow 
 
 p. 60 
 Canadian and Australasian Line, mail service, Crabb 
 
 p, 21 
 
 Commercial Cable Company, see under Cables. 
 
 Ciiuard Steamship Co. : 
 
 Amalgamation with Anchor Line - - p. 107 
 Mail contract, Crabb p. 20 
 
 Du-ect United States Cable Company, see under Cables. 
 
 Elder, Dempster, & Co., Ltd., amalgamation - p, 107-8 
 
 Elders and Fytfes, Ltd., steamship sei-vice to West 
 
 Indies p. 106 
 
 Electrical material, lower freight rates from Hamburg 
 to Bombay and Sydney than from London - p. IIU 
 
 Emigration : 
 Agents : 
 
 Acting for competing routes, no objection made 
 
 to. Park q. 72-5 
 
 Appointment : 
 
 Control by emigration officer, extent. Park 
 
 q. 2, q. 9-10, q. 11-3, q. 31-2 
 Reasons for disallowing, Park - q. 11-2, q. 31, 
 
 q. 65
 
 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 
 
 121 
 
 Emigration — continued. 
 Agents — continued. 
 
 several Aiipointments held by one man, Parh 
 
 q. 3-5, q. 82-1. 
 
 Clerks iu sliipping offices required to be appointed 
 
 as, if concerned in sale of steerage passages. 
 
 Farh q. 2-3 
 
 not Considered as persons responsible for giving 
 information, Parh - - - - q. 123-7 
 Exaggerated descriptions by, difficulty of pre- 
 venting. Park q. 77 
 
 Foreign, fair number of, Parh - - - q. 109 
 
 Fraud : 
 
 Case of, Parh . . - . q. 16-8 
 
 Power of emigration officer in case of, Parh q. 16 
 Functions, Parh .... q. 14-5 
 
 Information about different countries must neces- 
 sarily be small. Parh ■ - - q. 19, q. 76 
 Interests purely pecuniary, Parh - q. 110-5 
 Men sent round by big shipping companies to 
 look up, Parh . . . . q. 24-6 
 
 Many, appointed by several of principal lines, Parh 
 
 q.6 
 Misrepresentation, brokers involved in case of, Parh 
 
 q. 36-7 
 approximate Number, Parh - ■ - q. 3 
 Number employed by one broker, Parh - q. 33 
 have no Oljligations to the public, Parh q. 138-9 
 Possibility of advising emigration to counti-y from 
 which greatest i)rofit received personally, Pa7-h 
 
 q. 20 
 
 Question whether agents work at labour exchanges 
 
 or with uneuiplovment insurance local agent. 
 
 Parh - - " - - q. 66-71, q. 111-2 
 
 System not considered unsatisfactory. Park 
 
 q. 23^4, q. 82-90, q. 116-39 
 Whole-time, question as to number, Parh ■ q. 6 
 Work done where office or place of business is, 
 
 Parh q. 64 
 
 Association Ijetween external trade and, Snow 
 
 p. 61^ 
 
 Contracts given by agents and brokers in which 
 
 ship's name and date of sailing not specified, and 
 
 steps taken in case of. Parh - - q. 97-108 
 
 Correlation with marriage rate. Snow - - p. 65 
 
 Effect on i^roduction and consumption, little evidence. 
 
 Snow p. 59 
 
 to Empire rather than to foi-eign countries, question 
 
 of benefit to trade, Snow - - p. 59, p. 60-1 
 
 an Important aid to commercial and industrial 
 
 welfai-e, Snou^ ----- p. 59-60 
 
 Increase in consuming and producing power of body 
 
 of emigrants when moved to Colonies, question of 
 
 statistical data. Snoiv . . - p. 67-9 
 
 1876-1911, and external trade, statistics, Snoiv p. 75 
 
 Lectm'ers sent round with lantern views by Shipping 
 
 Companies, Parh - - - - - q. 26 
 
 Misdescription ; 
 
 a few Cases of emigrants being induced to take 
 
 passages to Canada owing to, Parh q. 27-30 
 
 Procedure in case of, but difficulty, Parh q. 91-6 
 
 Officer for London district : 
 District under, P^i/rh 
 Functions, Parh 
 
 q. 53-6 
 q, 57-9 
 
 Passage Brokers : 
 
 Agents, see that title above. 
 
 Aliens, naturalisation question, Parh q. 60-1 
 
 Appointment, a foi-m, subject to money guarantee, 
 
 Parh - - - - - - q. 129-33 
 
 in Connection with large lines to Dominions, are 
 
 men of good standing, and careful to appoint 
 
 trustworthy agents, Parh - q. 44-5, q. 134-6 
 Control by Emigi-ation officer, extent, Parh q. 6-9 
 Dealing with foreigners, men of less good standing 
 
 11 nd cases of refusal to renew licences for period. 
 
 Parh q. 45-52 
 
 Guarantee, nature of offences involving forfeiture 
 
 of, Parh q. 3.5 
 
 Interests purely pecuniary, Parh - q. 110-5 
 Licences : 
 
 Control over grant of, Pa/rk - - - q. 2 
 
 Forfeiture of bond would involve forfeiture of, 
 Parh q. 38 
 
 Emigration — continued. 
 
 Passage Brokers — continued. 
 Licences — continued. 
 
 Grant by justices of the peace, and no appeal 
 from, and no previous inquiry made, Parh 
 
 q. .39-41, q. 78-81 
 
 Number licensed, Parh - - - - q. 2 
 
 Provisions of Merchant Shipping Act, 1894. 
 
 section 343 re, Parh - - ■ - q. 10 
 
 Renewal, case of refusal. Park - - q. 43 
 
 Surety, system, Parh - - - - q. 2 
 
 Licensing authorities. Park - - - q. 10 
 
 have no Obligations to the public. Parh q. 138-9 
 
 Position of, Parh q- 2 
 
 Relationship to general prosperity of country, 
 
 question of, Snow ... - p. 64-6 
 
 Relationship with waves and depressions of trade, 
 
 Sno^v - - - - - - - p. 59 
 
 Snii)lus of suitable unman-ied females available 
 for, small. Snow - ■ • P- 60, p. 71, p. 72 
 
 Voyage : 
 
 Abuses during : 
 
 Complaint received from Melbourne as to want 
 of management of ship, Parh - q. 193—4 
 no Particular recent case, Parh - - q. 192 
 Procedure in case of, Parh - - q. 186-91 
 Berthing accommodation : 
 Male passengers, an-angements. Park - q. 159 
 Manied quarters provided in nearly all ships. 
 
 Park q. 163 
 
 Privacy, minimum laid down liy regulations 
 exceeded, Parh - - - - - q. 164 
 Separation of sexes : 
 
 An'angements, Parh ■ - - q- 159-63 
 
 Conditions fairly satisfactory, and question of 
 
 improvement. Park ■ - - q. 199-201 
 
 bv Division or pai-tial bulkhead, suggestion. 
 
 'Park q. 163 
 
 Improvement a question of money, Park 
 
 q. 208-12 
 by Placing at different ends of ship com- 
 pulsorily, not advocated, Park - - q. 163 
 Question of cost of altei-ation in order to 
 provide for. Park - - - q. 181-5 
 
 Tendency on part of sliipowners to meet 
 Board of Trade requu-ements, and to go 
 beyond. Park ■ ■ - - - ij. 20 
 Separate deck for single women would be 
 impossible in some ships. Park ■ ■ q. 163 
 Special accommodation usually reserved for 
 assisted and nominated emigrants, particu- 
 larly single women to Australasian States 
 or New Zealand, Pnc/i; - - - q.l63 
 
 Emigrants not kept under medical supervision for 
 any time before sailing, and such supeiwision 
 would be useless as emigrants allowed on shore 
 at different places. Pari - - q. 174-9 
 
 Hospital accommodation : 
 
 Adequate for shorter voyages, but nught be 
 slightly increased for longer. Park q. 140, 
 
 q. 157, q. 170-3 
 
 Conditions fairly satisfactoiy and question of 
 
 improvement. Park - q. 199-201. q. 208-12 
 
 Improvement. Parh - - - - q. 164 
 
 Might in some ships be in bettei; position, but 
 
 difficidties of alteration. Park ■ q. 201-4 
 
 Practically no difference in amount of space 
 
 for long or short voyage, and question of need 
 
 for. Park q. 140 
 
 Tendency on part of shipowners to meet Board 
 of Trade and to go beyond requirements. Park 
 
 q. 207 
 Infectious diseases : 
 
 no AiTangements made for. but no difficulty 
 experienced, Park - - - q. 153-8 
 Cases mainlv on Australian voyages. Park 
 
 q. 149-52 
 
 Record of, nature, &c.. Parh - - q. 140-8 
 
 Small-pox recently taken to Australia by people 
 
 embarking in Ceylon, &c.. Park - ■ q. 179 
 
 Statistics, Park p. 149 
 
 Matrons, Parh - <i. 164-5, q. 167-9, q. 195-8 
 
 no Sailing vessels, Parh • - - - q. 180 
 
 K 2
 
 12: 
 
 POMIN'IONS RtlVAI. COMMISSION : 
 
 E mig ration — couthnied. 
 YoYAOE — coiittnued. 
 
 Temporaiy stewards working passage oxit, Pari; 
 
 q. 166 
 
 Stewards and cooks, powers of emigration officers 
 
 re. Park q. 216-20 
 
 Empire Development Board : 
 
 Advantaj^e t" ]»? derived from, in control of shipping 
 mattei-s - - - - - - - p. 104 
 
 proposed Fiuietions - - - - p. 103-5 
 
 Meinoraiiduni by the Empii-e Trade and Industry 
 Committee of the Roval Colonial Institiite 
 
 p. 101-11 
 
 England and Wales : 
 
 Emigration, relationship to prosperity, SHO^p p. 6li 
 
 External trade not directly increased by emigi-ation. 
 
 Snow - - - - - - - p. 59 
 
 POPTJLATION : 
 
 1861-81, under 15 increased more rapidly than 
 
 over 15, Snmv - - ■ - - p. 69 
 
 since 1881, over 15 increased more rapidly than 
 
 under 15. Snow - - - - - p. 69 
 
 Births, deaths, and net emigration from in 
 
 decennial periods from 1861, Snou- ■ - p. 77 
 Births, deaths, emigration, and total increase 
 
 rates in decennial periods from 1861. S»o«'p. 78 
 Census populations iinder and over 15 since 1861, 
 
 Snow ■ - - - - - - p. 76 
 
 Death-i-ates of certain portions. 1911. and com- 
 parison with Australia. Snow - - - p. 73 
 Excess of unman-ied females (;>ver unmanned 
 
 males in age-groups, 1901. 1911. Siwic ■ p. 81 
 Fertility rates. Snow - - - - - p. 70 
 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 
 
 15-45, 1861-1911. S»W(c - - - p. 78 
 
 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation 
 
 of population in 1921. Snoii- - - - p. 84 
 Number of births per marriage in previous year, 
 
 1861-1911, Snow p. 79 
 
 Number of married males and females to every 
 
 total 100 males and lOO females in age-groups 
 
 1901. 1911, Snow p. 80 
 
 Percentage increase in intercensal pei'iods since 
 
 1861. Snoic - - - - - - p. 77 
 
 Population, estimate of, in 1921, Siiotc - p. 85 
 Population, estimate of, in 19.31, Snow - p. 86 
 Proportion of married people. Snow - - p. 70 
 
 Proportion of total population in age-groups, 1911, 
 
 Snow p. 72 
 
 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861-1911, 
 
 Snotv - - - - - - - p. 76 
 
 Rate of increase, diminishing, Snoir - - p. 70 
 Unmarried females, comparison with unmarried 
 
 men, 1911. Snow • - - ■ - p. 70 
 
 European news, question of extent to which Australia 
 interested in, Pender, q. 1080 ; Hibberdine, q. 1080. 
 
 Fi-ance, lower rates on linen to New Tork tlian from 
 
 Belfast p. 110 
 
 French Atlantic Telegraph Co., Pender ■ q. 1137 
 
 Furuess, Withy, & Co.. Ltd., amalgamation with other 
 
 lines - - - - - - - - p. 108 
 
 German Atlantic Telegraph Co., Pender - q. 1137 
 
 Germany, lower freight rates from, to Bombay and 
 
 Sydney' than from Loudon - - - - p. llo 
 
 Harbonrs . 
 Depth ; 
 
 Desirable to meet requirements of developments of 
 naval construction dm-iug next 20 or 30 years. 
 Biles ■ - - - " - - - p. 93 
 
 Increase adds to value more than in proportion to 
 cube of depth, Pirrie - - - - p. 100 
 
 Increase as a rule more important than provision 
 of improved facilities, but question a local one, 
 
 Pirrie p. 100 
 
 Minimum worldng depth of at least 40 feet now 
 desirable, and 45 feet should be recommended. 
 
 Pirrie p. 99 
 
 Question as to lighterage facilities as substitute for 
 
 deepened quay accommodation. Biles - - p. 92 
 
 Holt, A., & Co., mail service, Crabb - - p. 23 
 
 Immigi-ation, relationship to general prosperity of a 
 countiy, question of. Snow - . - p. 64-6 
 
 Impeiial Conncil of Commerce : 
 
 Memorandum ;•<■ All British Cable Ctimmunication 
 
 p. 97-9 
 
 Memorandum on All-Red Mail route - p. 87-8 
 
 Imperial Direct Seiwice with Jamaica, and i-estoration 
 
 suggested - - - - - - - p. 106 
 
 India, cables, see tluif title. 
 
 International Mercantile Mariue Co., lines forming 
 
 p. 102, p. 107 
 
 International Telegraphic Convention: 
 
 Code recommended by. Hibberdine q. 947, q. 986 
 
 Fixing of rates at meetings of. and regulations of, re 
 
 alteration of tariffs. Ac, Hibberdine , q. 983-90 
 
 Parties to, Hibberdine - - - - - q. 982 
 
 Ireland : 
 
 Emigration, relationship to prosperity. Snow - p. 66 
 
 Population : 
 
 Birth, death, emigration, and total decrease rates 
 
 in decennial periods from 1861, Snow p. 78 
 
 Birth, death, and net emigi-ation in decennial 
 
 periods from 1861, Snoio - - - p. 77 
 
 Census populations under and over 15, since 1861, 
 
 Snow - - - - - - - p. 76 
 
 Excess of immarried males. Snow - - p. 70 
 Excess of unman-ied males over unmanned females 
 
 in age-groups 1901, 1911. Snow - - p. 81 
 
 Fertility rates. Snow p. 70 
 
 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 
 
 15-45. 1861-1911, Snow - - - - p. 78 
 Limiting rates of increase or decrease assumed 
 
 for estimatiim of population in 1921. Snow p. 84 
 Loss during last 50 yeara proportionately greater 
 
 at ages under 15, Snow - - - - p. 69 
 
 Low proportion of man-ied people, Snow - p. 70 
 Number of births per marriage in jirevions year, 
 
 1861-1911, Snow p. 79 
 
 Number of married males and females to every 
 
 total 100 males and 100 females in age-groups 
 
 1901. 1911. Snow p. 80 
 
 Percentage decrease in intercensal periods since 
 
 1861. Snoiv p. 77 
 
 Population, estimate of, in 1921. Snow - p. 85 
 Population, estimate of, in 1931. Snoiv - p. 86 
 Proportion of total population undor 15. 1861- 
 
 1911, Snou p. 77 
 
 Proportion of total population in age-groups, 
 
 1911. Snow ' p. 72 
 
 Lamport and Holt. Ltd., amalgamation with another 
 Company ■ - - - - - - p. 108 
 
 Linen goods, lower rates from continental than United 
 Kingdom ports - - - - - - p. 110 
 
 Mails: 
 
 All-Red Route : 
 
 Advantages - - - - - - p. 88 
 
 Black.sod Bay scheme - - - p. 87-8 
 
 British Imperial Council of Commerce, memo- 
 randum re ■ - - - - p. 87-8 
 
 Question as to use of, for Australian mails, Crabb 
 
 q. 517-20 
 
 Resolutioi} of Commercial Congress of the Empire 
 
 in favour of p. 87 
 
 Australasia : 
 
 Boats sometimes in advance of contract time, 
 
 Crabb q. 427-8, 526 
 
 Cape route : 
 
 never Considered for letters. Crtdib q. 502-3 
 
 Question as to possible advantages and pos- 
 
 sil)ility of. Crnbb - q. 444-61. q. 470. q. ,-)(Jl-5 
 
 Used for small amount of parcels, but impos- 
 
 sibilitv of using for letter mails. Crnbb 
 
 q. 411-7 
 Overland, question of alternative route, Crabb 
 
 q. 408-10 
 
 Regularity of sei-vice, Crabb - - q. 424^9 
 
 Service not remunerative and loss to Post Office 
 
 on. Crabb . . - q. 422-3, q. 480-5 
 
 Services, particulars re, Crabb • ■ p. 21-3
 
 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 
 
 123 
 
 Mails — contitiiied. 
 
 Australasia — continued. 
 
 Speed, and comparison with speed of Atlantic 
 services, and question of reason, Crahh 
 
 q. 486-500, q. 558-9 
 
 American, attempt (1877), to maintain outward 
 
 service by use of fastest steamers available, Crahh 
 
 p. 20 
 
 for Canada, sending of. from Glasgow, Liverpool, 
 
 and Bristol, inconvenience owing to. Cnihli p. 20 
 
 Carriage of, by steamships burning oil, question of, 
 
 Crabb q. 528-32 
 
 Contracts : 
 
 Admiralty clauses in certain, Grahb - - p. 20 
 
 Companies wishing to compete or to tender) for, 
 
 would have to build new fleets, Crahh q. .387-91 
 
 Competition very restricted, Crahh - q. 392-401, 
 
 q. 466-9 
 
 Consultation of Admiralty and Board of Trade 
 
 during negotiations, Crahh ■ - q. 541-5 
 
 Liat)ility as regards losses, Crahh - q. 504-11 
 
 Maintenance of regular services during labour 
 
 troubles. Crahh p. 20 
 
 Payment, methods of fixing, Crahh - - p. 20 
 Procedure and reasons for not setting up Com- 
 mittee suggested by House of Commons Com- 
 mittee on Steamship Services, Crahh p. 21, q. 546 
 Provisions, Crabb - - - - - P- -'^ 
 
 Put up for tender, Crabb - - - - q. 516 
 Question as to effect of new Australian Shipping 
 
 Act, Crahh q. 549-57 
 
 Reason for difference between conti'act sea-speed 
 
 and full speed of ship, Crabb - - q. 521-5 
 
 System, change to use of fastest ships available 
 
 not desirable. Crabb - ■ ■ - P- 21 
 
 Overland, to Brindisi and Taranto, extra cost, but 
 
 increased speed, Crabb - - - Q- 402-7 
 
 Regular service, importance of, Crahh - - p. 20 
 
 Siberian route for China and Japan, l)ut use of for 
 
 Australia not considered, Crahh • q. 431-6 
 
 higher Speed and subsidy question, BiUa ■ p. 93 
 
 Statutory rate for conveyance, Crahh • q. 383-6, 
 
 q. 462-5 
 Suez route, revenue from foreign countries, Crabb 
 
 q. 476-9 
 to West Indies, maintenance on ship-letter basis, 
 
 Crabb p. 20-1 
 
 Messageries Maritimes Co., mail service, Crabb - p. 21 
 MilbiuTi Lina and Anglo- Australasian Steam Naviga- 
 tion Co., Crabb p. 22 
 
 New South Wales, legitimate births per 1,000 married 
 women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow • ■ p. 79 
 
 Kew Zealand : 
 
 Correlation between immigration and emigration. 
 
 Snow - - ■ - - - - p. 66 
 
 Emigration : 
 
 Correlation with bad times. Snow - - p. 66 
 Correlation with marriage rate. Snow p. 65-6 
 
 Freioht rates to : 
 
 Correspondence with the New Zealand Shipping 
 Co., Ltd., and the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., 
 Ltd. - - - - - - P- 100-1 
 
 Lower on German and American goods, vi i British 
 ports than on British goods - - - p. 110 
 
 Immigration : 
 
 Consuming power per head rises when immigration 
 active and is low when immigration slack. Snow 
 
 p. 69 
 CoiTclation with marriage rate, Snow - p. 65 
 
 Correlation with prosperity. Snow - - p. 66 
 Index of consumption per head, nett immigration, 
 index of marriage rate, of bankruptcy rate, and of 
 volume of liquor consumed per head, 1880-1911, 
 
 Snow p. 68 
 
 Population : 
 
 Births, deaths, and net immigration in decennial 
 
 periods from 1861, Snow ■ - - p. 77 
 
 Birth, death, immigration, and total increase 
 
 rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snow p. 78 
 
 Birthrate, decline i-apid, 1881-1901, but arrested, 
 
 Snow p. 76 
 
 New Zealand — continued. 
 Population — contin tied. 
 
 Census population under and over 15 since 1861, 
 
 Sncnv - - • • - - - p. 76 
 
 Death-rate. Snow - ■ - - - p. 72 
 Excesg of unmarried males over unmarried females 
 
 in age-groups, 1901, 1911, Snow - - p. 81 
 
 Excess of unmarried males, 1901 and 1911, Snow 
 
 p. 71 
 
 Fertility rate. Siwin p. 70 
 
 Legitimate births per 1,(J00 married women, aged 
 
 1.5-45. 1861-1911. Sfiow - - - - p. 78 
 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation 
 
 of population in 1921, Snow - - - p. 84 
 
 Number of bii-ths per maiTiage in previous years, 
 
 1861-1911. Snow p. 79 
 
 Number of married males and females to every 
 
 total 100 males and 100 females in age-groups, 
 
 1901, 1911, Snow p. 80 
 
 Percentage increase in intercensal periods since 
 
 1861, Snow p. 77 
 
 Population, estimate of, in 1921. Snow - p. 85 
 Population, estimate of, in 1931, Snow - p. 86 
 Proportion of married people, Snoni - - p. 70 
 
 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861- 
 
 1911, Snow p. 77 
 
 Proportion of total population in age-gi-oups, 
 
 1911, Snmv p. 72 
 
 Preferential duty, frustrating of, by lower freight 
 
 rates on foreign goods - - - - p. 110 
 
 Production statistics, Snoiv - ■ - - p. 68 
 
 New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd. : 
 
 Correspondence with, 1913, re alleged lower freights 
 
 on foreign goods - - - - - p. 100 
 
 Mail contract, question of inserting clause re no 
 
 undue preference to foreigners, Crahh q. 638-9 
 
 Mail sei-vice. Crahh p. 22 
 
 North German Lloyd, mail service, Crabb - p. 21 
 
 Ocean Steam Ship Co., mail service, Crabb ■ p. 23 
 
 Orient Steam Navigation Co., Ltd. : 
 
 Correspondence with, re acceleration of service p. 89 
 Mail service, Crabb .... p. 21-2 
 
 Panama Canal : 
 
 Demand for increased depth of harbours w^ll be 
 
 increased by, Pirrie - - - - - p. 99 
 
 Question of result. Biles - - - - p. 91 
 
 Question of result and advantage of proposed Empire 
 
 Board with regard to - - - - p. 105 
 
 Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co., Ltd. : 
 Amalgamation with Blue Anchor Line - - p. 108 
 
 Correspondence with, re accelei'ation of service 
 
 p. 88-9 
 Mail Conteact : 
 
 Avoidance of delay at Colombo might be arranged 
 
 in new conti-act, Crabb - - - q. 527 
 
 Condition that no undue preference should be 
 
 shown to foreigners, question as to method of 
 
 enforcement, C'rfibfcq. 418-9, q. 538—40, q. 547-8 
 
 Losses, statistics. Crabb - - - q. 504-5 
 
 Particulars, Crabb - - p. 20, p. 21, q. 521-6 
 
 Question re increase of speed in renewal of, Crabb 
 
 q. 512-5 
 
 Mail services, Crabb p. 21 
 
 Peninsular and Oriental Branch Line, Crabb ■ p. 21 
 
 Piekford and Bliick, Messrs., steamship service between 
 
 Canada and West Indies - - - - p. 106 
 
 Population : 
 
 Birth, death, emigration, immigration, and total 
 
 increase or decrease rates in decennial periods 
 
 from 1861, Snoir p. 78 
 
 Births, deaths, and net emigration or immigration 
 
 in stated countries in decennial periods from 
 
 1861, Snoui p. 77 
 
 Census populations under and over 15 since 1861, 
 
 Snow P- 76 
 
 1871. 1881, 1891, 1901, 1911, and rate of increase on 
 
 mean population, per cent., S«ow - - p. 70 
 Excess in rate of increase of males over females 
 
 in certain countries. 1901-10, Siww - - p. 69 
 Excess of unmarried females over unmarried males, 
 
 in age-groups, 1901, 1911, Snow - - - p. 81 
 
 R 3
 
 124 
 
 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 
 
 Population — continued. 
 
 Excess of unmarried males and unmarried females, 
 
 1901-1911. Snow p. 71 
 
 Excess of unmarried women in certain health 
 
 i-esorts. 1911, Snow p. ""2 
 
 Excess of unmarried women in Loudon, statistics. 
 
 Snow P- "1-- 
 
 Fertility rates, Snow ■ - - - • p. 7U 
 estimated Future populations. Snow - p. 74-5 
 Legitimate births per 1.000 man-ied women, aged 
 1.5-45, 1861-1911, Snow ■ - - - p. 78 
 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation of 
 population of various countries in 1921. Snow 
 
 p. 84 
 Number of births per man-iage in previous year, 
 
 1861-1911, Snou p. 79 
 
 Number of married males and females to every total 
 100 males and 100 females in age-gi-oups. 1901. 
 
 1911, Snow p. 80 
 
 Numbers of unmarried males and females between 
 certain age-Kmits in Loudon Boroughs, 1911. and 
 indices of social status. Snow - - - p. 82 
 Numbers of unmarried males and females between 
 15 and 35 in county boroughs, other urban districts, 
 and rm-al districts. 1911. Snow - - - p. 82 
 
 Percentage increase in iuterceusal periods. Snow 
 
 p. 77 
 Population, estimate of, in 1921, Snow - - p. 85 
 Population, estimate of, in 1931, Snow - - p. 86 
 Proportion of males and females under 15 to total, 
 diminishing. Snow - - - - - p. 69 
 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861-1911, 
 Snow p. 76 
 
 Queensland : 
 
 Agent-General, letter from Royal Commission to. 
 1913. re British Cotton Growing Association's ofier 
 
 p. 115 
 
 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 
 
 15^5, 1861-1911, Snow - - ■ - p. 78 
 
 Royal Colonial Institute, letter, July 1913. with 
 supplementary memorandum by Empire Trade and 
 Industry Committee - - - - P- 101-11 
 
 Royal Commission on Shipping Rings, 1909, proposals 
 of, and failure - - " - - -p. 101-4 
 
 Royal Mail Steam Packet Co., Ltd. : 
 
 Amalgamation of other companies with 
 West Indies service, Crabb, p. 20 ; p. 105. 
 
 p. 108 
 
 Scotland : 
 
 Emigration, relationship to prosperity, Snow - p. 66 
 Population : 
 
 Births, deaths, and net emigi-atiou in decennial 
 
 periods from 1861. Snow - - - p. 77 
 Birth, death, emigration, and total increase rates 
 
 in decennial periods from 1861, Snoic - p. 78 
 Census populations under and over 15, since 1861, 
 
 Snow - - - - - - - p. 76 
 
 1861-81. under 15, increased more rapidly than 
 
 over 15, Snow - - - - - p. 69 
 
 since 1881, over 15, increased more rapidly than 
 
 under 15, Snow p. 69 
 
 Excess of unmarried females over unman-ied males 
 
 in age-groups. 1901, 1911. Snoiv - - p. 81 
 Fertility rates. Snow - - - - p. 70 
 
 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 
 
 15-45, 1861-1911, Snoto - - - p. 78 
 
 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation 
 
 of population in 1921. Snoxv - - - p. 84 
 
 Number of births per marrj^ge in previous year, 
 
 1861-1911. Snow p. 79 
 
 Niunber of married males and females to every 
 
 total 100 males and 100 female in age-groups. 
 
 1901, 1911, Snow p. 80 
 
 Percentuge increase in intercensal periods since 
 
 1861. Snou- ■ ■ - - - - p. 77 
 Population, estimate of. in 1921, Snow ■ p. 85 
 Population, estimate of, in 1931, Snow ■ p. 86 
 Proportion of toteil population in age-groups, 1911. 
 
 Snow p. 72 
 
 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861- 
 
 1911, Snow p. 76 
 
 Rate of increase diminishing, Snovj - - p. 70 
 
 Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., Ltd. : 
 
 Con-esponclence with, 1913, re alleged lower freights 
 
 on foreign goods - - - - p. 100-1 
 
 Freight rates for foreign goods same as those charged 
 
 by local foreign shipowners - - - p. 101 
 Mail contract, question of inserting clause re no 
 
 undue preference to foreigners, Crabb q. 538-9 
 Mail service, Crabb - - - - - p. 23 
 
 Shipping : 
 
 Acceleration of sei-vices, correspondence between 
 
 Royal Commission and Peninsular and Oriental and 
 
 Orient Steam Navigation Companies - p. 88-9 
 
 to Australia, speed, comparison with speed of 
 
 Atlantic services, and question of reason, Crabb 
 
 q. 486-500 
 
 Comparative costs of carrying cargo at different 
 
 speeds, and different lengths of ships, Biles p. 92 
 
 Development in size and draught, dependent on 
 
 harbom- facilities. Pirrie - - - - p. 99 
 
 Freight : 
 
 Alleged lower freights on foreign goods to New 
 Zealand than ou British, correspondence with 
 New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd., Shaw, Savill, 
 and Albion Co., Ltd. " - - - p. 100-1 
 Classification, difference in methods, acting as 
 preference to foreign goods - - - p. 104 
 Fluctuations in mean yearly freight I'ates since 
 
 1902 p. 103. p. 109 
 
 Lower rates from Continental and American than 
 from United Kingdom ports, and instances 
 
 p. 103-t, p. 110 
 
 Need and method of pubHc control over p. 101-4 
 
 on Specified classes of goods should be approved 
 
 by Empire Development Board - - p. 105 
 
 List of principal foreign shipping companies p. 108 
 
 Mail services, see under Mails. 
 
 Meegees : 
 
 no Benefit apparently derived by producere and 
 consumers - - - - - - p. 103 
 
 Inflation of capital due to - - - - p. 103 
 Monopoly, growth of tendency - - p. 101-3 
 Recent amalgamations of British shipping lines 
 
 p. 107-8 
 Relation between size of vessel and economic 
 
 capacity as freight carrier. Biles, p. 90-1 ; 
 
 Pirrie, p. 99. 
 Size, increase, statistics. 1903-4 to 1913— t. Biles 
 
 p. 90-1 
 Steam vessels, memorandum ou economic size and 
 
 speed of. Biles p. 90-3 
 
 Suez Canal v. Cape route, Biles - - - p. 91 
 
 South Africa : 
 
 Cables, set' under Cables. 
 
 Freight agreement p. 102 
 
 Shipping monoply - - - - - p. 102 
 
 South Australia, legitimate births per 1,000 married 
 women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow ■ - p. 78 
 
 Spicer, The Right Hon. Sir Alljert. Bart.. M.P.. refeiTed 
 to, re cheaper cable communication within the 
 Empire p. 95 
 
 Suez Canal : 
 
 Board, representation of British Go\ernmeut- p. 104 
 V. Cape route, Bihs - - - - - p. 91 
 
 Deepening : 
 
 Demand for increased depth of harbours will be 
 
 increased by. Pirrie • - - - p. 99 
 
 Little advantage would be gained as far as distant 
 
 dominions concerned. Biles - - - p. 91 
 
 Receipts by British Government from - - p. 104 
 
 Shares, transfer of revenue now derived by British 
 
 Government to Empire Board or Fund proposed 
 
 p. 104 
 Tolls : 
 
 Diridend received by British Government should 
 be applied to reduction or refund of, on British 
 shipping - - - - - - p. 104 
 
 Grant to British ships out of Empire Fund of 
 allowance on account of, based on goods carried, 
 suggested - - - - - - p. 105 
 
 Reduction in rate of transit dues per ton since 
 1869 p. 104-5
 
 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 
 
 125 
 
 Tasmania, legitimate births per 1,000 married women, 
 
 aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow - - - p. 78 
 
 Tyser Line and Colonial Line, Crahb - - p. 22 
 
 United States of America : 
 
 Average exports from, and imports to. United King- 
 dom, 1878-1911, Snow . - - - p. 63 
 
 Correlations between fluctuations in emigration 
 from United Kingdom, and exports and imports. 
 Snow p. 62-3, 64 
 
 Exports from United Kingdom, net emigration 
 from United Kingdom and imports into United 
 Kingdom, 1878-1910. Snow - - p. 61-2. 6.'} 
 
 Exports from United Kingdom more closely asso- 
 ciated with emigration from United Kingdom 
 than are imports, Snow - - ■ - p. 64 
 
 Immigration from United Kingdom, exports to 
 United Kingdom, and imports to United Kingdom, 
 1876-1911, Snmi} p. 75 
 
 Lower rates to, from Continental than from United 
 Kingdom ports - - - - - - p. 110 
 
 Mails, system. Crabb - - - - q- 437-43 
 
 Movement to and from Canada. 1911-12, 1910-11, 
 1909-10, Show p. 69 
 
 Trade with West Indies tending to displace British 
 trade p. 105 
 
 White population, imports from, and exports to. 
 United Kingdom per head. 1891. 1901, 1911, Snow 
 
 p. 6(1 
 
 Union-Castle Mail Steamship Co., mail contract. Crabb 
 
 p. 20, q. 509 
 
 Union Steamship Co. of New Zealand, mail service, 
 
 Crabb p. 21 
 
 Victoria, legitimate births per 1,000 married women, 
 aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow - - - p. 78 
 
 Western Union Telegraph Co., see under Cables. 
 
 West Indies : 
 
 Mails, maintenance on ship-letter basis, Crabb 
 
 p. 20-1 
 Steamship services : 
 
 Acceleration, need for - - - p. 105-6 
 to Canada, need for improvement - - p. 106 
 with England, particulars re - - - p. 106 
 between Jamaica and southern colonies, need of 
 improvement - - - - - - p. 106 
 
 Trade with United States tending to displace trade 
 
 with England p. 105 
 
 Western Australia, legitimate births per 1,000 married 
 women, aged 15—15, 1861-1911, Snotc - - p. 78 
 White, Sir William, H.M. Director of Naval Construc- 
 tion, quoted re railway-ferry steamers - - p. 87 
 White Star Line, Crabb ... p. 23, q. 558-9 
 Wire and wire goods, lower freight rates to Australia 
 on Continental goods than on United Kingdom, and 
 preference should be granted and increased p. Ill
 
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