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(Previous Minutes of Evidence are printed as follows : — London, 1912 [Cd. 6516] (Migration), [Cd. 6517] (Natural Resources, &c.) ; New Zealand [Cd. 7170]; Australia, [Cd. 7171] and [Cd. 7172], and the First and Second Interim Reports are printed as [Cd. 6515] and [Cd. 7210J. IPrwenteH to totff iB^ome^ of Parliament ftp oToinmanli of Iftisi iWajeetp. Jatiuary 1914-, L O X D O N : PRIN'J'ED UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE By eyre ani. SPOTTISWOODE, Ltd.. East Hauding Street, E.G., PRINTEIiS T(i THE KINg's MO.ST EXCELLENT -MAJESTY. To be purchased, either directly or througli any Bookseller, from WYMAN AND SONS, Ltd., 29, Bkeams Buildin-gs, Fettek Lane, E.C, and 2.S. Abingdon Stkeet, S.W., and 54. St. Mary Street, Cardiff ; or H.M.^ STATIONERY OFFICE (Scottish Branch), 23, Forth Street, Ed.niu.ugi. ; or E. I'ONSONBY, Ltd., 116, Grafton Street, Dublin; or from the Agencies in the British Colonies and Dependencies, the United States- of America, the Continent of Europe and Abroad of T. FISHER UNWIN, London, W.C. 19U. [Od. 7173.] I>r\vc U. 10(/. DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION. CONTENTS. Page PRELIMIISAKY NOTE in LIST OF WITNESSES -------..- iv MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : I. Migration -----------1 ii. oveksea commdnications : Post and Telegraph .----...-10 PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION :' I. Migration: St;itistii-al Investigation on certain points arising out of a Meniorandnm by the Dominions Royal Commission on tlie effect on Britisli trade of Emigration from tlie United Kiugilom, and on the future populations of the various countries of the Empire ; by E. C. Snow, M.A., D.Sc. -------- 58 II. Oversea Communications: A. — Steamship, Post, axd Telegraph : (i) Mails : (a) All-Red Mail Route. Memorandum liv the Hritish Imperial Council of Commerce - 87 (6) Acceleration of Steamship Services. Correspondence with the I'eniusular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company and the Orient Steam Navigation Company - - 88 (c) Memorandum by Piofessor Sir John Harvard Biles, LL.D., D.Sc, on the economic size and speed of steam vessels - - - - 90 (ii) Cables : (a) Letter from the Commercial Cal>le Company as to reductions in rates for Australasian traffic --.-.. 9.3 (b) Letter from the British Imperial Council of Commerce enclosing a Memorandum as to telegraphic connnunicalion - - - 97 B. — Harboirs : Memorandum by the Right Hon. Lord Pirrie, K.P., on the development of harbours from the point of view of shipowners and ship-builders - - - 99 C. — Freight Rates : Correspondence with the New Zealand Shipping Company, Ltd., and the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company, Ltd. ------ 100 III. Empire Development and Organisation : Letter from the Uoval Colonial Institute, with a supplementary Memorandum by the Empire Trade and Industry Conunittee on their Proposal bir the creation of an Empire Development Biiard and Fund ------ lOl IV. Natural Resources: Corresjjondencc with the British Cotton Growing Association, the Oflicial Secretary to the High Commissidiur's Office, Commonwealth cf Australia, and the Agent-General for Queensland, as to Cotton-growing in Australia - - - - - 111 INDEX - 116 HI PRELIMINARY NOTE. The Commissioners present at the evidence taken in the T'aited Kingdom in November 1913 Avere : — Sir EDGAR VINCENT, K.C.M.G. (Chairman), Sir ALFRED BATEMAN, K.C.M.G., Sir HENRY RIDER HAGGARD, TOM GARNETT, Esq., WILLIAM LORIMER, Esq., LL.D., JOSEPH TATLOW, Esq., DONALD CAMPBELL, Esq., LL.B., The Hon. EDGAR RENNIE BO WRING, representing the United Kingdom. representing Australia. Newfoundland. ; The evidence contained in this volume is, in the main, supplementary to that heard by the Commission during their tour in Australasia in the first part of 1913. Opportunity has been taken to publish certain Memoranda laid before the Commission, and also correspondence on various subjects connected with their inquiry. The evidence, memoranda, and correspondence have been classified in accordance with the method adopted for the Australasian evidence {see [Cd. 7170], [Cd. 7171], ^nd[Cd. 7172]). E (5)20S30 Wt 3000 1/14 K Jc S 1106420 IT LIST OF WITNESSES. Day. Date on which Evidence was taken. Name. Page. Seventy-third Seventy- foTu-th Seventy-fifth 1-913. Wednesday, 12 November Thursday, 13 November Friday, 14 November Mr. Edwai'd Crabb, C.B., Second Secretary to the General Post Office .... The Right Hon. Hem-y Primi-ose, K.C.B., C.S.I., Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board. Captain J. B. Parli, Principal Emigration Officer for the London District - Mr. Stanley J. Goddard, Em-opean Representa- tive of the Western Union Telegraph Com- pany Sir John Deuison-Peuder, K.C.M.G., Vice- Chau-man and Managing Director of the Eastei-n Telegraph Company, Ltd., Manag- ing Director of the Eastern and South African Telegraph Company, Ltd., and Director of the Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company, Ltd. ; and - Mr. WiUiam Hibberdine, Traffic Accountant to the Eastern Telegi'aph Company, Ltd., the Eastern and South African Telegraph Com- pany, Ltd., and the Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegi'aph Company, Ltd. 10-29 29-38 1-10 38^4 44-57 44-57" DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE DOMINIONS EOYAL COMMISSION AT SCOTLAND HOUSE, VICTORIA EMBANKMENT, LONDON. I.-M I G RATION. Thursday, 13th November 1913, Captain J. B. Park, Principal Emigration Officer for the London District, called and examined. 1. {Chairman.) Tou are Principal Emigration Officer for the London district ? — Yes. 2. Would you read the replies which you have been kind enough to furnish to the questions asked by the Commission ? — Yes, I will be very pleased. I will read the questions first. The first question you ask me is : — Can any inforniatimi he given as to the numbers and position, of the 2^^1'sons who receive licences as passage brolcers. Are they usuallg steamship companies, or firms connected with and employed hy tliem, or private individuals ! My answer is : — The number of licensed passage brokers is 126. Licences are granted to individuals only and not to fimis or companies. Licensed passage Ijrokers may be divided into two classes, namely, (a) men who are the owners of ships, or dii'ectly connected with the manage- ment of .ships, e.(/.,the General Manager or Secretary of a steamship company; (6) men who are not pei'sonally interested iu any ships, but take ovit a broker's licence and have agencies for the sale of passages. Founded upon that reply you again ask me : " Can " you give us apjiroximate figures as to the number " of passage brokers, who fall under class (a) and " class (h) respectively ? '' In reply to that : No, I regret 1 am unable to give figures relative to each class of passage-broker. The next question was : — la practice is any control exercised over the grant or renewal of licences to passage brokers either by objection to the sureties offered, or otherwise I My reply to that is : — A baiikei''s refei'ence is oi)tained for each and every individual surety, and provided this referemre is satis- factory he is accepted. In the event of the reference being unsatisfiictory or refused then the emigration officer, under the pt)wer vested in him by section 342. Merchant Shipi^ing Act. 18i)4. woubl not approve of the surety. Where a guarantee society is the surety, that society must be one which has been approved by the Treasiu'y for the purpose of guaranteeing passage brokers. As regards the liroker himself, if he was considered to be an unsuitable person to hold a licence, then the Board (jf Trade Wdukl opjiose his application to the licensing authority. Founded upon that, you ask : '• Are those who " fall under class (/)) mainly heads or secretaries of " emigration societies or tourist agents, or, if not. '• what is their interest iu the work ? Have they any " connection with steamship comjjanies ? "' My reply to that is : The brokers in this class are generally shipping agents or tourist agents, while a few are connected with emigration societies. The next question you asked me was : — Boes the counter-signature of the appointments of agents hy emigration officers involve, in practice, any control over tJiesc appointments ! My answer to that is : — When an appointment is submitted for an agent wlio is considered hy the emigration officer unfit to e (5)20830 hold such an appointment, counter-signature would be refused. The emigiation officer has, however, no power to withdraw an appointment once it has been issued, except through the ))roker who gave the appointment. Founded on that answer you ask me: "Are, say, " clerks in shipping offices appointed as passage- " brokers' agents ? " My answer to that is : If they are in any way concerned in the sale of steerage passages they are required to be appointed. 3. That is, to be appointed by whom ? — By the broker. The next question you asked was : — Can figures he given as to tlie number of aiifliorised agents now existing ? My answer to that is : — I regret I am imable to furnish authoritative figures as to the number of agents, although four to five thousand would be about the number holding appoint- ments. The number of appointments which have been countersigned, and are at present valid, is apiiroximately twelve thousand. ■1. What is tlie difference between your four to five thousand and twelve thousand ? Do you mean to say there are six thousand or seven thousand licensed who are not exercising? — No, I mean one man may hold 1(1 appointments. ."). {Sir Rider Haggard.) Why does he hold 10 appointments? — Because he is appointed by 10 different l)rokers, and each broker must give an appointment. If a man wants to sell a ticket to go to Canada he may get an appointment from the Allan Line. If he also wants to sell a ticket to go to Australia he might get an appointment from the Orient Line. 6. {Chairman.) Will you go on with the next question ? — The next question is : — Is it usual for the same men (a) to hold appointments from several passage brokers, {]>) to devote their whole time to the business of passage agent ! My answer is : — Many agents are appointed by several of the principal lines, and I think the greater number hold ajjpoiutments from more than one. It would be difficult to calculate the number of whole-time agents in the United Kingdom, but there must be a fair number whose sole occupation is that of selling passages. Scattered throughout the country towns and districts there are many agents who carry on this business as a side line. Founded upon that answer you asked me : " Does '■ the acceptance of the banker's reference imply that '• no inquiry of any sort or kind is made into the " general suitability of an applicant to become a " passage broker ? " My reply to that would be : Inquiry is not usually made, although personally I have always tried to interview the man as soon as he has given notice of his intention to apply for a licence ; that is if lie is in or neai' London. 7. That is t(j say, you exercise some sort of control over the jiaasage broker, but not over any agent he nuiy appoint ? — I exercise it over the broker when I can see him and get at him or he is near me, but I A DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 13 Nm-emher 1913.] Captain J. B. Pakk. [Migration. would not think of asking a man that was to become a broker in a towii like Leicester to come to London pm^osely to see me ; and some of the brokers I have never seen. 8. If he is at Leicester or York pi-actically you do not see him ? — No. 9. And even if he is here, although you see him you do not see his agents ? — No. 10. Those he appoints upon his owti responsiliility ? — Yes, the agents would generally be in some town other than the one where the broker was. They may, and many do, appoint ageuts in the wilds of Ireland. The London broker does that. Fomided upon my reply to tliat. you ask me : '• Would you explain shortly to the Commission who " the licensing authorities are?" The licensing authorities are laid down in the Act itself, section 343 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894 . " Application " for a hcence to act as passage broker shall }x made " to the licensing authority for the place in which the •' applicant has his place of Inisiness. (2) The licensing •' authority, upon the applicant proving to their satis- " faction that he (a) has entered into aud deposited '■ one part of such bond as is required by this Act ; " and (h) has given to the Board of Trade at least •' 14 days" clear notice of his intention to apply for a •' licence, may grant the licence, and shall forthwith '• send to the Board of Trade notice of such grant. " (3) The licensing authority shaU l)e — (a) in the " Administrative County of London the Justices of the •' Peace at Petty Sessions ; (6) elsewhere in England, •■ the Council of a Coimty Borough or County District ; •• (c) in Scotland, the Sheriff ; aud {d) in Ireland the " Justices in Petty Sessions." 11. Now. I shoidd like to ask you what are the precise responsiliilities and what are the privileges of these licensed passage brokers and their agents ? — The broker, assuming he is the one connected with the shipping company, for example, the manager of a ship- ping company, cannot legally sell a steerage ticket imless he is a licensed broker. He must become oue. and to conduct his business — say for a tii-m like the Union-Castle Company — he wants to have agents in all the different towns to get hold of passengers ami sell tickets; he must appoint agents, and having a broker's licence he appoints agents in accordance with the Act. These appointments in Loudon are all sent in to me fur countersignatm-e. but, as I have said, the agent may be in the wilds of Ireland or anywhere else. and I must judge by what the broker writes ou the face of the appointment whether I think the man a suitable man from his vocation. For instance, I had one sent in this moniing where a certain variety agent company in a part of London wanted permission to l)ecome an appointed agent to sell tickets for steerage passengers to go out to the Cape. I do not myself think it is a vei^' suitable combination, a variety agent (theatrical people) having a steerage passenger agent's appoint- ment : and I pointed out to the wT-iter the Act. and I also advise<l him, that there might be resisons to object to the combination of two such businesses. Again, I have cases where I have a pulilican in a little public- house. I do not think that would be a suitalile place to have an agency, and 1 have declined to countersign such an appointment. Even in some cases there are ))arbei-s' shops and other places of that kiud. 1 would refuse places of that kind entirely in London, but 1 might be inclined, if it were in a little coiuitry village, toliccept a man who kept a grocer's store provided it were a small place and I was given clearly to undei-stand something about it. 12. The rea-son for disallowance by you usually is the man's previous vocation ?— Yes, liecause I do not see the man; I rely on the broker, who signs that ;ippointmeut and sends it to me. that he is appointing a respectalile man. but in many instances I have had to refuse lx)th brokers and agents. 13. No inquiry is made a.s to the individual's chai-acter ':* — No. none. With the number of agents I could not do it. Not only that, I rely on the broker, whose bond we hold, for the canying out of his business and assume that he appoints a proper agenj. 14. These 4.000 or 5,000 agents of the bi-okers have pi-actieaUy the monopoly of the sale of steerage passages ; is that so ? — Yes. 15. What are their responsibilities ? — I do not know that they have any responsibility except that they issue a contract ticket to the jjerson whose money they take. 111. There is no conti-ol over any statement they may make in order to induce a pei-son to buy a ticket 'f — The Act does have a section in it to the effect tliat if I have any reason to consider that there is any fraud, or that he has induced emigrants to buy ticket.-; in a frauiiuleut way, I can proceed against that agent. l>ut I must have someone to come forward on whose word I can found or advise pro.secution. Six weeks ago. in Loudon, we had a prosecution of a mau for taking money from intending emigrants, and I inquired about that man ; he had an office in the City and another office in the West End, and acted under two false names, and he got money out of a good number of intending emigrants by a false advertisement. I did not interfere in the Mansion House ti'ial in that case, because the man got a heavier sentence than he could have got if I had ; the man got 12 months' hard lalxmi- for fraud. 17. The fraud in that case was taking money and giving no passage ticket ? — Or false pretences : it was by fraiuJ. Tlie police prosecuted in that case, but if it had been under this Act I should liave contended then that he took the money and gave no ticket. 18. What was the precise natiu-e of the fraud ? Was it a misdescription of the place to which the emigrant wished to go. or was it obtaining money and giving the emigrant no ticket in return ? — He iidvertised for a manager of works in New Zealand aud lie had nothing to do with New Zealand whatever, nor was he a passage agent in any way whatever. He offei'ed to give them 300?. a year and half their passage out ; he advised them to apply to another office ; he himself was the other man and the tenant of the other office also. The money was fonvarded to the other man ; he received the money at oue office and wrote the letters referring to it at the other, so that it was a do\vnright swindle. The police accepted it at once in the City, and when I came to the West End office I found the police had arrested him in the East End office. 19. Apart from that it is clearly desirable that intending emigrants should have correct and ti-ue information of the suitability of the place to which they iuteud to transport themselves 'f — That is quite ti-ue. but I do not think you can expect these agents to know very much about these diffei-ent countries ; for instance, in these little country places where those agents are appointed the agent is some little local man who probably knows the people who come to him to ask particulars. Unless there is some distinct fnxud I consider the agent will give what information he can. I assume the emigrant knows something about the place he is going to just as well as the agent. 20. The agent's interest is. of course, to sell the tickets .'' — Yes. exactly, and my place is to see that that agent does not fraudulently sell those tickets, and that the contract ticket is carried out. Another view of the case might l:>e that the agent might be an agent for Australia or Canada or )>oth places. In the one case he would get a handsome commission if a passenger were going to Australia, especially if he were going '• assisted " or •• aided " \nider some of the Agents- General ; he wouhl then pocket over the transaction of sending the man to Australia about live times as miich as if he sent him to Canada. He would naturally be inclined to think the man was a splendid man for Australia whatever he thought aliout Canada, although proliably he would be an agent ior both. 21. Over that kind of misrepresentation you do not pretend to exercise any control ."—No. 22. And n.i control is exercised under the Act ? — No ; in fact I do not reqidre an agent to be possessed of knowledge to give the information. 23. What is your opinion of the system as it is now ; do you think it satisfactory ?— Yes. 24. Or tluit it is improvable ? — I think it is very satisfactory to keep hold of the broker, the man who knows the ship or who is connected with the .ship, and MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 13 N(yvember 1913.] Captain J. B. Pa.ek. [^Migration. let him be responsible for the man he appoints as his agent. These big companies like the Orient Line, the Union-Castle Line, the Shaw, Savill Line, and the New Zealand Shipping Company have a travelling individual in their firm who goes round, and it is his constant duty to look up these agents, and any agent who is not getting them any Ijusiness or whom they have any reason to suspect, is called upon by these travelling representatives of the companies, who either remove him from their list or take their agency away from him or do whatever is necessary. 2-5. However, their action is rather in the direction (jf stimulus than of check ? — Yes. 26. And they would not commercially blame a man for too highly coloured descriptions of the places to which their ships i-nn ?^No, in fact I rather think they send people about the counti-y to lectiu'e with lantern views, and everything else, and each Agent -General tries his best to get as many as he can. That is my view of it. 27. In your experience, are there many cases in which emigrants are induced to take passages to places on misdescription ? — Not many ; a few. I think, have been to Canada, but I do not think I have heard of others. A few have been induced to go to Canada when thei'e was little work at the places perhaps for the individual man, but I foimd on making inquiries that trade unions entered a good <leal into it in the western towns, and that a trade union which wanted to raise the wages and to get people to leave the place raised difficidties. There was a shortage of labour in one town. Then some brokers and agents were asked to send over emigrants ; emigrants have gone there and found by the time they got there that the trade was quite Hooded, but it was due to some local trade union work that went on. Two or three times I have found that to be the case. 28. (Mr. Tatlow.) Is it not the case that the Canadian Government give a bonus of IZ. per emigrant to the agent in addition to the commission he gets from the steamship company ? — I am not quite sure, but I should not think so. 29. I was told that by the agent of the Canadian Goveniment at Dublin ; they do it apparently in Ireland. — They may do it for a short season, but I have not known that sucli a thing goes on. 30. He did not limit it at all ; it was the Canadian Government agent in Dublin wIkj told me. — He would know a great deal better than I ; that part <if it does not concern me, but I know certain of the Australian States do give men 1?. a head for every one they can rake in or get hold of. 31. You said that when the names of agents were submitted to you for tlieir apjjointments to be counter- signed, in the case of publicans you would hesitate about giving the counter-signature •' — Yes, if I knew him to have some small public-house I would hesitate to countersign the appointment. 32. Perhaps they do not work as strictly in Ii'eland. but I am told in that comitry the greater number of the agents are publicans ? — Perhaps I may explain that, as the principal emigi-ation officer in London. I have to do with the London brokers, such as the Oi'ient Line Ijroker. The Ciuiard Line broker is a Livex'pool man, and they have to do with another officer of the Board of Trade, who is also an emigration officer. But I have a clerk, and if anyone comes along with at all a questionable vocation, apparent on the face of his appointment, my clerk immediately stops it and keeps it back for my judgment. Then I write to the people and ask them. I either ask the broker to come and see me or I write to him : " Are you aware of this man's business ? " and then lie will explain. Some- times it is a woman who is the agent. 33. I suppose there is no limit to the number of agents who can be appointed by brokers ? — None ; some of the brokers in London have over 2.000 agents. 34. And your chief reliance is upon the broker being a good business man, and selecting only good agents ? — Yes. The broker of a company of good standing would be very cautious as to whom he appointed as his agent. 35. {Mr. Lorimer.) Just one or two questionB : what is the nature of the offences which involve tne forfeiture of a broker's guarantee ? — We would come upon the broker for the non-fulfilment of the contract on the ticket. In one case a man took out a broker's licence in London ; he was guaranteed by one of the guarantee societies. That man went to Newcastle and opened an office as a passage broker, and Jie sold a considerable number of passages. Tliese individuals were all to embark xipon a certain day on a certain ship Ln London. When the passengei-s came to London there was no ship, and the broker was missing. They appealed to the emigration officer, who went and booked the whole lot on the first ship for America, and they were forwarded at the expense of the guarantee society who guaranteed the broker; it cost them I believe over 8001. 36. The principal offence, you might say, is mis- leading the emigrants ? — Yes. 37. Does action of that character on the part of an agent involve the broker also? — Yes; the brokers bond is behind every agent whom he has appointed. 38. Does the forfeiture of the bond involve the forfeiture of his licence ? — It certainly would ; we would oppose the re-granting of the licence after he had forfeited his bond. 39. What authority is it tliat grants these licences ? — The Justices of the Peace in the different towns. 40. Is there any appeal from them ? — No, not that I know of. 41. Their decision is final .' — Final. 42. But you are careful whenever a forfeiture for misconduct has been reported, to oppose the renewal of tlie licence of the man who has Tieen guilty ? — It has only happened once, and on that occasion the bond was forfeited, and th? man never appeared again for another licence. 43. Tliat is the only occasion on which it ever happened ? — No ; on another occasion I appeared at the GuildhaU to oppose the re-granting of another London broker's licence, and the justices there refused to grant the licence for a certain time. 44. As a rule, the men who apply for licences as brokers are men of good standing ^ — Oh, yes. 4.5. And therefore they will be equally careful to appoint trustworthy agents, because of the responsi- bility involved ? — Yes, especially in connection with the large lines to the Dominicms. I have also got to do with brokers who do not deal with Britishers, but who deal with foreigners, and when I come down to the foreign Russian Jew, then, perhaps, I have to do with people who are not quite so sound, and who are not so careful. 46. Are these brokers appointed in this country? — Yes, and resident in this countiy. 47. And, of course, you exact from them the same guarantee as you do from the others ? — Yes. 48. In that case, has it been forfeited more fre- quently than in the case of brokers dealing with home emigi'ants ? — In the two cases that have arisen the one broker was an American, and in the other case the Ijroker was a woman, a Russian. 49. And she disappointed you? — Well, she did not ; the justices declined to renew her licence for a cert;iin time ; I think thi-ee months was the time for which they refused to grant her licence. 50. Did you say suspended rather than forfeited ? — It happened that no action was taken until the renewal of the licence was due — these licences are renewed every twelve months — and , it was opposed at the renewal. 51. By you? — Yes. 52. And your opposition was effective? — In that case it was sufficient to suspend, or nitlier prevent, the renewal for three months. 53. (Sir Alfred Bateman.) You say you are Pinncipal Emigration Officer for the London district ? — Yes. 54. But you act for more than that, do you not? —No. 55. You spoke about Leicester, I think, just now? — Leicester happens to come within the London distiuct. My district is a pretty large one ; it covers from A 2 POMINIONS KOYAI, COMMISSION : 13 yoventber 1913.] Captain J. B. Park. [Migraiioii. s Lincolnshire on the one side roiiml the coast of EngLind down to Devonshire on the other. 56. So that it is a good deal more than London and vei-y much more important ? — Yes, l>ut I have other duties besides those of the emigration officer, and it is more in connection with those other duties that I have this district. 57. Altogether as regards emigi-ation yoiu- duties seem to be simply to look ;ifter the agents from this point of view, that they supply what they contract to snpply — a ticket ? — That is it. 58. So that the people may get to the country they want to go to ? — Tes. 59. Tou take pi-actically no notice of any mis- i-epresentation about the countiy that they get fi'om the agent ? — No. I have no means of doing so, nor can I judge of the fitness of the individual to go to that country; he pays his money and gets his contract ticket, and that contract has to be can-ied out. 60. Can brokei-s who are aliens be agents or have they to be naturalised ? — I do not think they need be naturalised, I am not quite certain. In the case of my reference to the American I do not know whether he was natiu-alised. In the case of the Russian, yes, she was naturalised. 61. But you do not know of any cases in which they are aliens ? — Xo. I cannot say that I do. I may say that out of the 126 licensed brokei-s in the United Kingdom. I think possibly nearly 90 of them are licensed in London ; consequently although I only represent the London district the great bulk of the brokers obtain their licences in London or through my office. 62. The question of what the agents receive does not come before you ? — No. 63. Whether they get a guinea or two or three guineas ? — No, they would get five per cent, on the price of the ticket, I think, as far u.s the ticket was concerned, and whatever else might be offered by the society or the colony they were going to has nothing to do with me. 64. Would it concern you as to where they do their work, whether in theh' own houses or pubKc-houses ? AVliere do they get their custom chiefly? — Wherever their office or place of business is. 65. They have to have an office ? — I have foiuid a man. for instance, offering to pi-ove he had an office, and I was veiy doubtful of it, and I made enquuy and went myself and I found out that he rented a chau- in an office, and I declined that man's appointment. 66. I want to ask you a question or two about the modem development of Labour Exchanges : ai-e you aware whether there is any connection between the agents and the Labour Exchanges ; do they do their work there at all ? — I should not think so ; I sho\Ud think they keep as clear of them as possible. I do not know of that sort of thing. 67. Tou do not know whether they go there, because naturally that would be a good reci-uiting gi'oimd, would it not ? — I do not think so because they would not have any money. The agent only wants the man with money. 68. In the same way he would not go to a still newer develoijment, that is the Unemployment liisunmcc local agent ? — I should not think so. It would depend very much on the agent how he goes about his business. 60. The new local L^nemployment agent in a big village has the people coming to him for their pay if they are temporarily out of work in certain trades ; he wets 2«. 6(/. a year for each pei-son on his book. Woidd not that be a good i-ecruiting ground ? — I do not really know. 70. Tou have not anything to do^vith these things ? Nothing to do with the Labour Exchanges at all. 71. Or with the way the agents do their business when once they are licensed ? — No. 72. Tou speak, again, of the agents as acting for several routes ; but they would not act for competing firms, would they ; they woidd rot act for the P and O. and for the Orient lines at the same time, wotild they ? ■ — As far as I am concerned, they might. 73. Tou do not mind? — Not at all. That is for the companies' brokers, to see that they appoint different men. 74. That you have nothing to do with? — In the Atlantic the lines ai-e what they call conference lines, and then you become mixed up with a different state of conditions. 75. When there is a conference line, it does not very much matter as long as you get clients for one of the lines of the conference ? — That is so. Of course, we have brokers — Thomas Cook is a passage broker and all his clerks and all his agents are passage brokers' agents, and they have all appointments. I do not know whether a company would refuse to give an appointment to an agent because that agent had ah-eady been appointed by another company ; I do not know that, but I should not think so. 76. Complaints about misrepresentation of the country to which they were going would not come to you much ? — No ; in fact, 1 never looked on the agent as being an individual capable of giving advice as to the country. 77. But you are awai-e that he paints evei-ything often in vei-y bright coloiu-s ? — I am afraid, no matter what information you gave him, he wotild still be prepared to do so. 78. {Mr. CampheU.) Do you know anything about the appointment of these passage brokers when they come before the Justices for a licence ; is it regarded merely as a formal affair ? — I think so. 79. Quite formal ? — Tes. 80. No serious inquiiy is made about the hoiui fides of the individual ? — Oh. no. as long as the man complies with the law. 81. And finds the guarantee ? — And finds the guai-antee. 82. In connection with that guai-antee you say there are 12.000 appointments of passage brokers' agents by 126 passage brokers .•" — Tes. 83. That vould Ije an average of about 100 passage agents to each passage broker? — Yes, although it is not so. It would work out like that if you averaged it, but it is not so. 84. No ; but there may be cases, and probably there are, where one passage broker would have perhaps 1.000 ai>pointments ?— Tes, 2,000 and 3,000. 85. And those 2.000 or 3.000 passenger agents are all covered by the one individual guai-antee that is given by the one passage broker ? — That is so. 86. So that in a case like that, of coui-se, the iiuarantee gets rather attenuated, does it not ? — Tes, it does. 87. 1 do not know whether you have answered the question as to whether you regard the system as one that is likely to liave any serious dangere attached to it. Do you ? — No. 88. Ton look upon it ? — As working perfectly well. 89. Perfectly safe ?— Perfectly safe. 90. What check is there : what force is bix)ught to beai" to bring these passage agents, whose every intei-est is rather to misi-epresent the position of affaii-s to an intending emigi-ant. what force is thei-e that compels them to keep so well within the line that there is no serious damage arising fi-om it ? — The broker would withdraw that man's appointment if I were to approach that broker and prove to him that there was i-eason tor doing so. and that might spoil that man's business in that town. 91. In the.event of any trouble occurring, if any such case of misrepresentation were known (I do not say it has been because it appeal's to me there is very little evidence on the subject one way or the other), but suppose a case occurred where there was palpable misi-epresentation by the passage broker or his agent, who sets the law in motion ; is the responsibility on the emigi-ation officer ? — Tes. 92. Tou are supposed to keep on the watch for those things ; you act on complaint ? — If complaint is made to me. 93. Tou act on complaint ? — Tes, I would do so, but it is very difficidt for me because I must have some evidence of fi-aud or something more than just bare \ MINdTKS OF KVIDENCrO. 13 November 1913.] Captain J. B. Pabk. \_Migration. misrepi-esentation ; I must have it that the agent has received the man's money and will not or does not fulfil the contract. 94. Thi.s case of which we have Ijeen told, that is the case of Morris v. Howden (Queen's Bench, 1897), malies it very difficult for you ? — Yes. 9.'). Is there any intention or is there any possibility of rectifying that by regulation ? — Not by regulation. 9(]1. Is there any intention of amending the law? — It would be a little difficult to get that amended ; we would have to appeal, I think, to the High Court, and probably carry it even further than that to get that decision altered. 97. Is it common for a jiassage broker or his agent to give to an intending emigrant a I'eceipt for money, practically a contract, for a passage in which no ship's name or date of sailing is specified ; is that a common form ? — Ever since that decision was given. 98. Perhaps we misunderstood each other ; it is noi^ common for a passage agent or a passage broker to give a contract in which the ship's name or her date of sailing is not specified ? — Yes. I am afraid it is. 99. So that there are still a very great number of cases to which this case would apply 'f — Yes. The case does arise. 100. It does arise frequently still ? — It does arise, especially with the Atlantic passengers, in the East End of London. 101. Is there any intention to I'emedy this defect in the law ? — No, I do not know that there is. 102. "Would it not be possible to compel passage agents or brokers when they are making a contract by regulation or by the control you have over their appointment ? — I have not very much control. 103. I am speaking now of passage agents ? — No, I cannot do anything but demand the production of a written appointment of an agent. The agent may be in Ireland and the broker in London, and he sends down a hundred appointments for me to go through and countersign— jn'obably .jOO apjiointments. 104. So there is no possible way of compelling agents to make a definite contract which would bring that contract within the ambit of the court? — No, I think not. 105. In case of its coming to yoiu- knowledge that a passage agent has done something which, though it may not be within the circle of the law, still is. in your opinion, something that would disqualify him as a passage agent, you have no means of revoking his appointment at all ? — I wotdd di-aw the attention of the broker to it first, and hear what the broker has to say, and I would deal with that agent through the broker unless the fault were grave enough for me to prove fraud agamst that agent. 106. Do you ever have any cases of that sort where complaints are made against a passage agent, and you take those steps you speak of ? — Yes, I have appealed to sevei'al brokers. 107. There are several cases ? — Yes, I have often sent for the agent, and had the agent in my office, and he has offered to refund every penny between himself and 21 • passengers before he went out rather than I should bring him into conflict with his broker. That kind of thing hapi^ens chiefly with foreigners. I am largely con<;erned with foreigners — Jewish Russians, Poles, and Austrians. 108. You mean in the case of foreign(M's who are intending emigrants ? — Yes, and some Jewish agent <u- co-religionist down in the East End of London who deals with these people. Probably there are not two out of twenty who can speak a word of English, and I have to do the best I can and try to get the emigrant put straight and his ticket can-ied out. 109. Are there many of those foreign agents ope- rating ? — A fair number. 110. {Sir Bidet- Haggard.) I suppose I am right in concluding that the interests of both these brokers, and of the .5,000 or more agents who work imderneath them, are purely pecviniary ? — I think entirely. 111. And I think you told one of the Commissioners that they would not care to go to Labour Exchanges and so on, because those people were not set up in funds ? — I have to assume that in the coimtry towns they are there to get commission. 112. Is that so ?— I presume so, but 1 1 ave nothing whatever to do with it. 113. Then it is a case of " It is y(jur money wo want " ? — Yes, imless it is some philanthroi)ic society which is to be the agent. 114. We will leave them out; we will not tikf in the ijhilauthropic societies. There are certain brokers who employ a huge number of agents scattered throughout this kingdom who are all out to get money from intending emigrants ; is that so ? — That is their business. 115. And it is a business which they carry on and in which they seem to succeed, do they not ? — Some succeed ; others do not. 116. You have told us certain rather shocking stories which have come to your notice as to frauds which have been played off upon these emigrants, and would it be perhaps fair to presume that other such incidents have happened which have not come to your notice ? — Yes. 117. That is, perhaps, all I need ask about that. You told the Chairman and, I think, another Com- missioner, that you considered this state of affairs entirely satisfactory ; in view of what you luive just said to me, do you still consider the state of affairs entirely satisfactory ? — Yes. 118. Upon what ground ? — That the person I have reported was not an agent. In the case of the man I had to go against and prosecute at the Mansion House, he was not an agent. 119. You told several stories, and you said other such things might have happened you did not know of. In view of those facts, do you still consider this system an entirely satisfactory system ? — I do not see that I can better it much. 120. Of course, we all have difficulties in attaining to tlie ideal, but as it stjinds can it be an entirely satis- factory system under which there are 5,000 men, over whom there is practically n(} control, loose in this kingdom with liberty to misrepresent to any extent they like, in order to obtain money from persons who are willing to leave the country, or who think they wish to leave the coimtry ; is that an entirely satisfac- tory system ? — I do not see how I can alter the thing. 121. I will take it in that way ; you do not .see how you can alter it ? — No. 122. Can you give me an answer to the question, is that an entirely satisfactory system as it stands ? — I cannot consider it an unsatisfactory system. 123. Why not. the facts being as admitted ? — Because I do not look upon the agent as an individual placed there to give information to intending emigrants ; I look upon the emigrant as Iieing an individual already possessed of his idea of where he is going to and he goes into that office or shop and buys his ticket as if he went in anywhere else and bought an article. 124. You have truly told us that this is done, not from any virtue, not to help the man, but to get money ; under those circumstances is it right that a person who benefits pecuniarily should be in the position of directing the individual applying as to leaving these shores, and as to where he should go when he does leave ? — I do not think the individual re(|uires that information from that agent any nu)rp than if 1 went into a shop and knowing wliat I want 1 buy it and pay for it, 125. You think in point of fact a yoimg woman, for instance, of 17 or 18, or a young person goiu" there, does not require any assistance on such a subject ? — I do not think she would expect to get it from that agent ; that agent would be in probably some village and perhaps know not much more than she would. 126. Taking it on that basis, the agent may be a person of the most supreme ignorance who yet, as is asserted freely, and I think it would seem, not without foundation, does give glowing accounts of certain counti-ies by sending the individuals to which countries he will profit pecuniarily ; that is so, is it not ? — 1 think he will be supplied with some particidars from A a POMINIONS ROYAI. COMMISSION: 13 November 1913.] Captain J. B. Fabk. [Migration. the broker who appoints bim for the information of anyone who wants to emigrate, and I think he would use theii- advertisements and their information. 127. ■\Vithoiit any trimmings from his oivn imagi- nation ? — Pi ssibly he might add to it. 12?. Still your answer is that, in view of all you have said, and of all that is admitted, you still con-sider it is a very satisfactory .system ? — As long as they are able to get the other side of it and can get information from the nearest post office. I do not see that there is iiuj-thing very far wrong. 12!). That i.s your answer, but, as a matter of fact, the appointment of these agents and, to a certain extent, of the brokers, is a mere form, is it not; it is only subject in the case of the brokers to a money guarantee? — Yes. a money guarantee. 130. And anybody who can insure with an insurance society, and get a money guarantee, can be appointed a broker H — I have had to iutei-vene on one or two occasions with certain men that I have made inquu-y abo\it. and I luive lieen able to exert sufficient influence to prevent them getting a broker's licence. 131. That is in a few cases? — Yes. 132. But there must be many cases where it is a mere form; a person against whtmi there is. nothing ostensible and who offers the guai-antee can have the appointment ? — Yes. imless I knew something about him. or had some reason to suppose there was some- thing AVTong. 133. And it would be fair to presume that you would not know all the details about him ? — Yes. 134. If that is so ^\■ith the broker, still more so with the agents ? — Yes. I look to the broker to lie aware of that. 135. Therefore the person whose appointment in the majority of cases is a mere form has the power of the appointment of scores or hundreds of others to can-y out the executive part of his business? — Yes; but the l)roker, you must remember, is connected with the ship, and it is to his interest to conduct his business in a thoroughly proper way. 136. Is it not, m the tirst place, his interest to tind piissengers for the ship ? — Yes, I suppose it is, but you would not get people in the position of the shipowners of London or Liverpool who would willingly or know- ingly appoint agents who woxild do anything which was illegal. 137. I do not think there is much use my troubling you fm-ther; I will put to you one final question. You would not agree with me if I suggested to you that, so far from lieing entirely satisfactory, the systeln is about as bad as it can be ? — No, I would not agree with that. 138. (Chainiiaii.) The fact is that biokers and their agents are. in your view, in no sense public officers — they are mere tradesmen in passages ? — Entirely. 139. They have no obligations to the public ? — None whatever ; that is my view. 140. Now I woidd ask you to read the answers you have been good enough to prepare ^vith regard to the accommodation on board emigrant ships ? — The first question you ask is about ships" hospitals. Ho^ipital Acroiiiiuodatioii : lieijuhifioti 11 hiijs doirii that supcint space is to be set iipart for hospital oceoiii- modation. and Regiilatiou 13 defines the minimum sjiace to be provided. In priietire is any distinetion drawn hetwenn the space set apa^•t for hospital aeeommodafion ■in respect of a sltorf voyage such as Hint to Canada and long tropical voyages sueh as tliose to South Africa and Australasia '! And my answer is : — - Practicallj' no difference. Founded upon that answer you ask : " Do you think ■' it advisable to have pi'ecisely similar regulations as to '■ hospital accommodation for short voyages of seven •• or eight days and long tropical voyages ? K not, •• what improvements would you suggest in the " x-egvdations for the latter." And my answer is : Possibly a slight increase in the amount of area reqvui'ed, although, of course, where an infectious disease broke out this would not make much difference. The next question you ask is : — Is such accommodation adequate ? And my answer is : — Adequate in the North Atlantic trade, but on some occasions in longer voyages and especially where any infections disease has broken out. the accommodation has, I understand from the medical oflicers on some of the ships, been in their opinion insufficient. Founded upon that answer you ask : " Do medical • officers t)f the emigrant ships make any special report '• to the Board of Trade as to health on emigrant ships •• which could serve as a basis for action "" ? — My reply is: -All cases of infectious disease are entered in the •■ official log book of the ship, also the medical officer •' signs a form as to the mmiber of cases, but it could •' hardly form a basis for action." 141. Whom does that log book go to ? — It is kept by the Registrar-General of Seamen. 142. Then in the case of infectious disease breaking out on ;ui emigrant ship, does he make no special report?— He would fill in a form that infectious disease had lirok'en out. He would also fill in the date the infections disease was discovered and what treat- ment was adopted — for instance, if patients were put in the hospital and when they were declared well, and got out of the hospital again. The form would be signed by the captain of the ship, the doctor, and the chief officer. 143. Do all these reports come eventually to some place of control here — do they come to you ? — Not to me. but to the Registrar-General of Seamen; these log books of the ships are all kept there. 144. You are the official in charge of accommodation f<ir steei-age passengers, are jou not ? — Yes. 14d. But you do not see reports upon which an opinion could be formed as to whether hospital accommodation has been adequate ? — No ; of course my officers are in touch vnth the officers ot the ship and could ask them when they noticed there had been infectiiius diseases and they could make enquiry from the captain of the ship and the doctor. " Were you hard put to it ? " or. '■ What had you to do ? " 14G. An emigrant ship goes away and a large amount of infectious disease breaks out ; xmless you happen by accident to ask, you get no notice or infor- mation aliout that ? — Yes, I would know that infectious disease had broken out on that ship. 147. In what way ? — The doctor of that ship has a form to fill in and that form comes to me, but it would not go into any particulai's. 148. Not as to the number of cases or the adequac}- or non-adequacy oi the segregation wards ? — No, it would not mention the adequacy of the hospital accommodation. It would mention certain items ; for instance, if the ventilation were defective in the hospitals as fitted, but not as to the area or quantity. 149. Woidd you go on ? — Your next question was : — Is any return available shoiring the frequency of affaclcs of infectious disease during voyages, and the then adequacy or othei-wise of the arrangements made ? And my answer is : — ■ On lioard the last -jo ships cleared from London and which carried 20,392 emigrants there were 169 infec^tious cases on 22 of the ships and 33 vessels had no cases. On that you ask me, " Could you tell the Commis- •■ sion whether the cases of infectious disease occurred •• mainly on ships to Austialasia or on those to Canada •' and the LTnited States of America, or were they •' evenly distrilmted ? "' — My answer is : I should say they were mainly on the Australian voyages. 150. {Mr. Larimer.) I suppose that is because infectious disease is largely latent for a definite period ? — Yes. 151. You might have just as many going to Canada with that disease latent ? — Yes. 152. And it would develop after they got there ?— Yes. 153. (Chairman.) Will you go on to the next ques- tion ? — Yoiu' next question was : — In case of a severe epidemic of measles or other infectious disease on board, are arrangements made for MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 13 November 1913.] Captain J. B. Pabk. [Migration. temporary extension of the hospital arrangements with adequate segregation ? My answer is : — No arrangements are made for epidemics, and the master and surgeon must in eaeli ease do whatever is possible under the circumstances. Fovmded upon that answer you ask : " What can " you suggest in the way of lietter provision against " epidemics on long tropical voyages ? '' — I do not know that I can advise much unless you do not allow the passengers out of the ship, and you do not allow anyone to come into it at ports of call. 1.54. You might recommend lai'ger segregation quai-ters .-* — Even if I did I would have to enlarge very very much before it was of any great good. I myself have been in command of an emigi-aut ship and had 40 cases of measles at a time and had no difficulty in making the necessary ari-augements. 15.5. Where did you put them — on the upper deck H — Yes, I turned out a room of stewards, and I was able, with the doctor's assistance, to arrange matters entirely to his satisfaction. 156. Might it not be compulsory on board ships to have the possibility of creating segregated accom- modation of that kind ? — You would require a good deal of exti'a accommodation to be able to meet a case of that kind ; the increase would need to be lai'ge to be effective once an epidemic had broken out. 157. Do you really tliink that these are things you must take the chance of ? — I think so ; I think it might be possible to make a small increase to the hospital accommodation on the Australian ships over and above what is required for the Atlantic ship, but only a small addition. It would not be satisfactoiy to meet the infectious disease when it broke out. 158. It might deal with the first few cases and prevent their spreading ? — Yes, in that way ; that would be all. Both as regards people to look after those who are sick on board the ship and to make aiTaugemeuts. the cajitain, as a rule, can do a good deal in' most ships, both by employing suitable women to act as niu'ses from among the hundreds that are perhaps on boar-d, and men, too. by ijayment and agi-ee- ment. I have never had any difficulty and I have made many voyages all over the world with emigrants. 159. Will yciu continue y — Your next questitm was : — Berthing Accomiiwdatioii ; Beg illation 9t provides for the berthing of male passengers (other than those who oixupy berths with their wives) either in separate rooms or ill a 'compartment divided from, the space ap-propriated to the other steerage passengers by a bulkhead. In practice which of these plans is usually adopted (a) on emigrant ships to Canada, (b) on those to Australasia? My answer is : — (a) and (&) Generally in separate compartments, although in some lines they are in rooms and other passengers in the same compartment. Founded upon that you ask : " What is the exact " difference between a compartment and a room j* "' My answer to that is : A compartment in a ship would be a space self-contained \vith its own ladder-way, its own ventilation, with a large number of passengers in it ; a room woixld be a cabin within a compartment which was not a self-contained arrangement with its own ventilation and its own entrance. 160. In your opinion, is the separation now pro- vided adequate ? — It depends a great deal on the booking clerks and the booking arrangements with the passengers. The ships are liuilt and c<"ime to London from the building yards from different places, with cabins, and it depends considerably im the liooking clerks of the different companies to see that the men are berthed as much as possible in one set of rooms, and the women as much as possiljle in another. That is when the whole of the people on the ship are berthed in separate cabins. Of course, if we deal with them berthed in large steerages where they ai'e in cubicles or entirely open, then the men would all be in one part of the ship in the open steerage, and the women, if in another open steerage, would ))e in another part divided by a steel bulkhead. In each case each steerage would lie a self-contained place, with its own ladder-ways, its own means of ventilation, and occu- pied entirely by men in the one case and entirely l>y women in the other. But when we deal with a ship that is all built in caljins and supposed to give rather superior accommodation, then much depends on the berthing of the people ; one vt)yage we may have 500 men, and the next time there may Ije 500 women, and we have to try and make the thing fit for both occasions, and it depends a good deal how this berthing is arranged for. 161. That is done by the companies without any superior control ; it really depends on the booking clerk y — The booking clerk gives my officers who go down to the ship on sailing day particuiars as to where he has put the women and where the men are to be put, and if my officer has any objection to make he would do so ; and the Agents-General of the different colonies have generally someone down at the ship representing them ; and if one of those gentlemen had any objection to make it would be I'ectified ; they would do what was right in the matter. They would not take and lierth four or five women in a cabin immediately in front of a room with four or five men ; if there were two adjoining cabins (women on one side and men on the other) instead of having spaces above at the roof and Ijelow at the floor for a cm'rent of air and ventilation, all that would be closed up. My officers would see that was done. In fact, the shipping companies as a ride do all they can towards meeting us : they know what my officers would recpiire. 162. And in the cases where temporary emigrant accommodation is set up, are the difficulties greater there ? — No ; as a rale the temporary aiTaugement would lie put up to meet the bookings which they had. They would say: "We have 100 women, and we must ■■ Imild for lOtt women in this part ; we have 500 men, '• we must put them down another hold and arrange '■ for them.'' 163. Will you kindly go on y — The next ipiestion is: — It has been suggested that the quarters of the single men should be at one end of the ship and those of the single women, at the other. Is this system praciicallg 2Jossibh' ! My answer is : — Yes. In some ships this arrangement exists. The next questitm is : — Does it already obtain in many emigrant ships ! And my answer is : — Yes. In many. Pounded upon that answer you ask nie : "Would you " suggest that separation of the quarters of the sexes " by placing them at different ends of the ship should •' be made compulsory on all emigrant ships " P My answer is : No, I would not. Again : " Would it l)e " practicable to jirovide a sepai-ate deck for the single " women ? " and my answer is : No, in some ships it would be impossible. The next question is ; — Or, if not, what arrangements for separation of the sexes are made in practice ! And my answer is : — ■ Separate compartments are allotted to each sex, or all may be berthed in small rooms. The next question is : — What improvement is possible ! And my answer is : — This would depend very much on each particular ship, but where women are all in I'ooms and men in rooms it would lie well, where jjossible, to have the women's rooms separated from those of the men by a division or partial bulkhead. With reference to that I should say that I had in mind where an <iccasion would arise whei-e yon had women directly facing cabins with men. In that case if it were practicable on that particular ship I should then fit up a screened liulkhead I'unning between the two sexes. Of coiirse, by everytliing you do to intro- duce screens between rooms on a ship, if she is going down the Red Sea, you hamper the ventilation terrib.y and increase the trouljle amongst the emigrants. The next (piestion is : — Are married quarters nsiinlhj provided > And my answer is ; — Yes. In nearly idl sliips. A I DOMINIONS ROVAI. COMMISSION 13 November 1313.J Captain J. B. Park. [Migratioti. The next question is : — Is special accommodation usually reserved for assisted and nominated emigrants, particularly single women emigrants tcho arc going out to the Australian States or Neic Zealand ! Anil my answer is : — Yes, usually, and partioiilarly if there is a large number of suih emigrants. lOi. Will you go straight on now ?-r-The next question is : — General : Generally speaking, is there a tendency, and, if so, has it been more marked in recent years, to provide (a) better hospital uccontniotlation ! My answer is : — Tes it has ; the hospital accom- modation is better than it used to lie. And : — (b) and more privacy as regards berthing arrange- ments than the minimum laid down by the Segulntions .' And my answer is : — Tes, especially in the new ships. Tou then asked me something a))out matrons ; " Can '• you tell the Commission anything about theappoint- " ment of matrons with parties of assisted and '■ nominated emigrants ? " 165. Do you consider the aiTangements as to mati-ons satisfactory ? — As emigratiou officer I have nothing to do with the matrons ; if a society had a uumlier of single women they might send a mativn in charge of them, but I cannot demand that such should be supplied. 166. Then as regards temporai-y stewards. AVe have heard complaints of the conduct of these tem- poi-ary stewards who are working their passage out. Do you know anything of that 'f — The employment of temporaiy stewaids is a general one, but it rests with the master and officers of the ship to see that these people conduct themselves proj>erly, and they should not be berthed near where the women are berthed. 167. (Mr. Tatlou.) I suppose the Board of Trade could, under regulation, if they thought fit, i-equire a matron to a certain number of female emigrants !" — The Act prescribes what we ciin require and demand, but there is nothing of that kind. 168. It could not be done ? — I think possibly the law admits of such a requirement being made. 169. You think it could be done without any addition to the law ? — I think under the Act of 1906. as it stands, possibly the Board of Trade could do such a thing ; I am not quite certain, but I think perhaps they could. 170. Only one other question, and that is about the minimum accommodation ; the Board of Trade regula- tions lay down at present what the minimum accommodation shall be ? — Yes. 171. I think you admitted that while that was satisfactory for the shorter voyages it was insufficient for the longer ones ? — You are now speaking as to the hospital accommodation ? 172. Yes ; therefore would you agi-ee that the Board of Trade regulations should be altered and should provide for two minima, one for the shorter and one for the longer voyages ;■ — I think the present one might do for the shorter voyages, but where a ship was a very full one I think it might be increased slightly for the longer voyages. Still whatever the increase was it would never be sufficient to meet an epidemic. 173. Still you would consider it desirable to alter the Board of Trade regulation to that extent ?^As regards the area requu-ed I think it would be an improvement to slightly increase the quantity required on a longer voyage in a full ship. There is no trouble unless the ship is perfectly full. 174. {Mr. Larimer.) In the supplementary questions submitted to you, you were asked : '• What can you " suggest in the way of better provision against epi- " demies on long tropical voyages?" That induces me to ask whether emigiunts are kept under medical supervision for any time liefore they sail ? — No. 175. None at all ?— None at all. 176. And they may come up at any moment with disease latent ? — They all come down in the train together, probably 200 in the train. 177. As you said a moment ago, these epidemic diseases mostly break out on long tropical voyages ; I suppose you would admit that medical obsei-vation for some time would probably detect all the latent cases ?— It possibly might ; but if I take a ship going to Australia and I get down to Naples and limd 200 or 300 people ashore : if I get down to Port Said and I allow 400 emigrants ashore for the day — all that pro- tection I have taken would probaljly lie nullified. 178. They ai-e allowed ashoie at these different places ? — All of them. 179. Then the idea I had would be upset by that; my thought was that if they were kept under obser- vation long enough to ensure that Ijefore they went on board there was no latent disKise it might be useful, but, of coui-se, if they come in contact with jjeople on the way at Port Said and elsewhere, that would be no use ? — The cases of small-pox which have arisen in Australia recently were taken liy people embarking in Ceylon. Colombo, and these ports on the outward voyages, and can-ied to Australia ; they did not go from England. 180. Do sailing ships carry emigrants ? — No ; we have no sailing ship can-ying emigi^ants to-day — not one. 181. (Sir Alfred Bateman.) Can you tell the Com- mission whether it is a serious expense to alter the building for proper segregation when it comes to having, say, 400 women on board instead of 200 on the last voyage ? — That would depend eutii-ely on the particular ship, and what her ari-angements were: it might cost nothing. 182. Might it cost a great deal? — Not very much, I think. 183. It would not affect you ; you wovdd not be stopped from recommending the master of the ship to make these alterations so as to seciu-e proper segrega- tion for a lai-ge number of women emigrants ? — If they berth them in cabins that is all Ave can demand — women in cabins. If I were talking about that kind of ship, and most ships have those cabins now. it would cost almost nothing. 184. With cabins you mean you would have the sexes intei-spersed ? — The same as the first -class accommodation — cabins all over. I could put half the cabins full of men. or a third or all of them, or on the next voyage I could put the bulk of the women in the cabins and vei-y few men. It would not not make any difference in the cost in that case. 185. In what cases would it raise the cost particu- larly? — It might raise the cost where I had an open steerage for men. an open space which held 150 men, and I had only got 80 men. Then I must make some different an-angements entirelj' if the bulk are to be women, and put them somewhere else. Look at the different steerages of a ship ; there is a large place ftdth one ladder. I cannot introduce a second ladder — I cannot cut holes through. The first-class is all over ; I cannot readily cut ventilators through, as the emigrants are generally down below the second or the first class, and it is very difficult to cut through the decks. I have always to be governed by this question of ladder-ways and the arrangements for the ventilation. 186. Do any of these abuses which happen on board ship on long voyages come befoi'e you? — Not miless there is some grievous complaint wi-itten by a pas- senger, then I would hear of it. 187. What would you do ?■ — I would send for the captain, and ask him for an explanation when he came back. 188. And if it was not satisfactory ? — I would have the owner along and see the owner of the ship, 189. Would you refer it to the Board of Trade ?— I would. 190. Through the Registrar-General ?^No: direct to the Marine Department. 191. You have never had such a case ? — Yes ; the probability is that it would go to the Marine Depart- ment and they would refer it to me, the reverse way, and then I woiUd send for the captain on the arrival of the ship and have a full detailed account of what took place, and if it were unsatisfactory I should communi- cate with the ownei-s about the want of management on that ship. AIINUTE8 OF EVItiEXOE. 13 November 1913.] Captain J. B. Pabk. [^Migration. 192. Could you tell the Commission of a recent case of that ? — No, I have not had any particular recent case. 193. Do you remeniljer any cases ? — I had com- plaints about the want of management in one ship. There wei'e two oi' three different illnesses on board. It was said that the doctor was neglectful, and that kind of thing, and that there was want of proper attention by the matron uy stewardess. I thinli the complaint came from Melbourne ; in fact, most of the complaints I ever hear of come from Melbourne. lO-t. Why is that ? — I suppose there is some gentleman in Melbourne who is interested in the matter. 19.5. There are societies to look after the thing ; do you have complaints as to the inefficiency of matrons looking after the girls or anything of that sort ? — No, I do not hear of that ; I have nothing to do with it ; a matron is not compulsory and I cannot enter into the question of matrons. 196. It does not come within .the four comers of any Act r — No. 197. The Board of Trade could not make regula- tions aliout it H — I am not jirepared to say whether the law is printed in such a way that the Board's regula- tions extend that far or [not. I think it is possible they could ask foi' a matron. 198. But you have not had a case ? — No. 199. (Sir Rider Ha(/gard.) I gather you think, on the whole, things are fairly satisfactory both as regards the segregation and hospital accommodation H — Yes. 200. And that it would be difficult to improve under all the circumstances in either of those par- ticulars ? — It might be improved, perhaps, especially if we had a general idea of how many women were going, how many men, and how many maiTied people when the ship was built, but we have not ; this is a constant changing quantity — these different numbers of people. 201. To\i think, under all the cu'cumstauces, it would not be easy to improve greatly upon the present aiTangements in either case — either segregation or hospital accommodation ? — The hospital accommoda- tion might, as I said, be increased a little on the long voyages, and not ouly that, but in some of the existing shijis the hospitals might have been put in better positions perhaps. 202. The Board of Trade has no authority to order that, has it ? — It is a little difficult ; the Board of Trade officers are, say, in Glasgow, wheie a ship is liuilt and the officers there are shown the ship and they pass it. After a ship has got one clearance, it is a little diffi- cult for another officer to come along and condemn the arrangement which has been accepted on a former voyage by another of the Board's officers. 203. Then practically there are difficulties about demanding any alterations ? — Yes. A London com- pany would, perhaps, bring their plans round to my office, and they would all be gone into, and my officers would recommend about the hospitals and, possibly, alter the plans and get them all straight Ijefore the plans went to the Imilding yard. The shijis would come round practically as we an-anged. But another owner who did not wish us to be consulted would go dii-ect to the builder and say, " You build our ship •' to pass the Board of Trade." That ship would lie built to pass the Board of Trade officer on the spot, in Glasgow, or BeU'ast, or wherever he might be. The shipljuilders know what has been passed before and what will pass again. Possibly in cases of that kind we might be able to say, " Had you shown us " this before we would have suggested some other " better an-angement," but the quantity we can demand will be there in every instance, and probably a little more. It is simply a question of the arrange- ment of the different cabins which are allotted as hospitals, or their position in the ship, and one officer may think a hospital is not as well placed as it might be, and that it would be better somewhere else. 204. It does come to this, that there are difficulties about making alterations, especially when the ship has already passed the Board of Trade ? — Yes. c 2IJ8.3U 205. You are aware, I suppose, that there ai-e some very sad cases of epidemics on these long voyages ; the Chairman and myself saw a poor woman who lost one or two children and had another there dying, and J she complained liitteily that there hail been no sufficient isolation and that the sick children were playing «vith the sound ones ? — Was not that mismanagement on the ship ? 206. I can scarcely answer the question; we only heard her story and that was what she said. You know there are very serious epidemics ? — I do not think you can make it any different. If an epidemic breaks out in an emigrant ship it is almost certain to be pretty bad unless it is caught at once. 207. (Mr. Garnett.) Do you find, with regard to hospital accommodatiouandsegregationaccommodation, that on the part of the shipowners there is an increasing tendency to meet the wishes of the Boaxd of Trade or is the tendency I'ather to cut the thing down to the lowest minimum ? — With all the companies of good standing the tendency is to meet the Board of Trade and to go Ijetter than the Board of Tx'ade require- ments. 208. Is it a policy which the Board have con- sidered, viz., to screw up everybody to the standard that some of the best companies are setting of their own accord ? Is there anything contrai'y to sound policy in that, that the Board of Trade should tiy to bring up those who lag behind to the standard of tliose who are prepared to go further than the present requirements : in other words, to i-aise the require- ments ? — Some of them charge less passage money and they could not afford it; it is all very well to talk about a fine ship where they charge 17/. lOs. for eveiy emigrant who goes out and pays fuU fare, but where you are taking an Australian man at 12/. you cannot afford that kind of thing, 209. It is a money question ? — When we begin to talk about improvements, yes. 210. Does your department look upon it from the money point of view ? — No. 211. Anyhow, you admit there are some people giving a great deal more than other companies ? — Yes. 212. And one might hope, perhaps, to see these i-equiremeuts made the minimum ." — They are charging more for it ; for instance, take two companies going to the same place ; one woidd prolablj^ charge more than the other, and I should certainly expect to find very mucli better treatment both as regards lierthing and food on the one with the higher fare than I would on the other. 213. It goes without saying that the consequences to people on a long voyage if they are quarantined for a long time are very serious ? — Yes. 214. And it must be the cause of a great deal of suffering, inconvenience, and expense to those who are (juarantined ? — Yes. 215. Therefore it is not too much to hope that means might be found whereby these epidemics might be nipped in the l)ud ; as you have said in your evidence, it is a matter of isolation at the very beginning, having sufficient isolation accommodation, and segregating those who are suffering from the sound ones ? — If they are detected in time ; but it is a very difficult thing with measles among the children. 216. One knfiws and admits all that. We had several complaints in Australia, not only al)out the conduct of some of the stewards working their passage out. but their inefficiency ; that is to say, instead of their being efficient stewards and alile to look after those who were ill, they were very ill themselves and the people who were suffering had to go without atten- tion. Have you had any complaints on those grounds ? — An; you talking now of a passenger who is not well, or somebcjdy who is ill in the hospital ? 217. I am speaking of the emigrants who go out and suffer from sea-sickness and who shoidd have been attended to by these stewiu-ds who were Ul themselves ; they were stewards working their passage out. Have you ever heard any complaints about insufficiency of B 10 POM 1X10X3 UOy.VL COMMISSION : 13 Nov^mher 1913.] Captain J. B. Pabk. \^Migration. r.ttendance of that kind? — We cannot demand any stewards. •21S. Ton cannot demand anything ? — No. •J19. That does not automatically come within your purview at all ? — I know of one partirular company which, when it charters a ship, i-equires the emigrants to wait upon themselves. I can demand one steward and two cooks for, I think. 100 people — two cooks for 300 people. These are the bare regulations : " Where there are on board as many as 100 steerage " passengers not statute adults, there must be a sea- " faring pei-son appointed as a steerage passengers' •■ steward, and another as cook. U there are more " than 300 statute adults there must be two cooks. '■ The steward and the cooks must be rated on the ■• .ship's articles and be approved by the emigration '• officer." That is the whole of the instruction I have got to demand any stewards for an emigi-ant ship. ■220. That is all you can a.sk ? — That is all I can demand, and instead of that we find one shiii chai-ging a great deal for a passage and dealing \vith them as if they were second-class passengers. II.-OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS: POST AND TELEGRAPH. Wednesday, 12th November 1913. Ml-. Edward Ckabb, C.B., Second Secretary of the Genei-al Post Office, called and examined. 221. (Chairman.) You are Second Secretary to the Post Office, and you have been good enough to come here to represent that department ? — Tes. 222. Perhaps the most convenient course would be if you would kindly i-ead yo\ir memoi-andum which was di-awn up in answer to certain questions which we wrote to you ? — Tes. Shall I begin vrith the telegraph part of it ? 223. Please begin with the telegiuph part of it. The follmving are the questions and the memorandum in reply thereto: — Cable Communications. Questions. (<i) Membere of the Commission will no doubt desire to ask questions in connection with the, General Post Office memorandirm of 30th April liU3,* on the question of a State-owned Atlantic cable, which has been forwarded to the Commission. In particular the following points suggest themselves : — (1) When will the landing licences of the Com- mercial Cable Company's gi'oup fall to be renewed ? (2) Could the Commission be supplied with a copy of the landing licence now applicable to the Western Union gi-oup of cables ? (3) With i-eference to the statement by Mr. Samuel at the Imperial Conference. 1911 (Cd. 5745, p. 301), that the amount of load which the Pacific cable could supply to a State-owned Atlantic cable would l>e about 1,000,000 words per year, it might tie pointed out that according to the last published report of the Pacific Cable Board (House of Commons Paper 256 of 1913), the international ti-affic can-ied by the Pacific cable on an average dimng the List thi-ee years amounted to over 2,000,000 words. Some of this traffic, of com-se, was to and from Canada and the United States. (h) On the general question of telegi-aph rates to and from Australasia the Commission would be glad to have the views of tlie Geuei-al Post Office as to the effect in increasing traffic of the recent introduction of defen-ed and week-end telegrams and as to the possi- bility and prospects of fiu-ther reductions in (a) ftill rate, {b) defeiTed and week-end, (f) press, messages, with particular reference to improvement of the load factor on the cables, which is at present poor. (c) It has been stated that, as yet. adequate publicity has not been given to the increased facilities afforded by the system of defeiTed and week-end telegrams, and it has also been suggested that the following changes might usefully be made : — * See Anuexiue on p. 12. (1) that no extra charge should be made to the public for the service communications indi- cating the uatiu-e of these messages ; (2) that the minimum length of week-end telegrams should be reduced to 12 words, costing 9s. ; (3) that the charge for week-end telegrams should be reduced to (id. a word ; (4) that week-end messages should be transmitted by telegi-aph throughout ; (5) that the use of registered addi-esses should be available for week-end messages, as well as for ordinary and deferred : (6) that " dictionai-y " code words should be allowed in these messages, as distinct on the one hand from plain language, which alone is allowed at present, and on the other from any kind of pronounceable word which is permitted in code telegrams. The Commission would be glad to hear the views of the General Post Office on these points. (rf) It has also been brought to the notice of the Commission that — (1) the percentage of reduction on defeiTed tele- grams to and from the United States of America and Canada is greater than that on those to and from Australasia ; (2) the Western Union Cable Company has com- menced a system of daily cable letters to America ; and (3) week-end telegrams to Austi-alasia are delivered on Tuesday morning, whereas those to the United States of America and Canada are delivered on Mondiiy morning. The Commission would be glad to know what view the General Post Office take of the jjossibility of similar an-angements on the Australasiiin service. (e) In connection with the question of substituting the use of the fastest ship on the l>erth for a large mail subsidy on account of the Australasian mails, it has been suggested that the money saved might be devoted to the improvement of telegraphic communi- cations with Australasia. The Commission would \>e glad to receive any views the General Post Office may be able to express on this suggestion, and to know whether they could give any approximate estimate of the increase in traffic likely to result from reduction, say, to {a) Is. 6d. a word. (6) 9(?. per word, for full-rate messages, with corresponding reductions for deferred, week-end, and press messages. Memorandum from General Post Office in reply to the above Questions. The Post Office is concerned with cable questions primarily to secure an efficient service at rates reason- able both for the public and for the cable imdertaking. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 11 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edwaed Crabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. Questions of military expediency, for instance, such as those involved in the provision of cables for strategic reasons, do not come directly within the sphere of the Post Office. It is not jjroposed, this being so, to oft'er any i-emarks either on the views which liave been put before the Commission as to the strategic necessity of State cables, or on the merits of the suggestion which has been made that a direct subsidy should be paid so as enable the Pacific cable rates to be reduced below what are justifiable from a business point of view. Those are matters primarily for the consideration of the naval and military authorities and of the Treasury. It may, however, lie stated, as a matter of historical fact, that subsidies have not hitherto been given with a view solely to reductions of rate (though such a subsidy is now contemplated in the special case of the West Indies), and that the Colonial Office assured the Eastern Telegraph Company in 1899 that there was '■ no inten- " tiou of working the new (;'.e.. Pacific) cable on other " than commercial lines and at remunerative rates " (page 29 of [Cd. 46] of 1900). It appears that only in the case of the North Atlantic has the provision of a State-owned cable been advocated before the Commission on other than purely strategic grounds. On the commercial aspect of the suggestion for a State-owned Atlantic cable, the Post Office has little to add to the memorandum* on that subject which the Colonial Office forwarded to the Commission in May last. In that memorandum it was pointed out that in existing circumstances the Pacific cable traffic to and from Australasia would not bring to a State Atlantic cable a revenue of more than 30,000/. a year as against an annual estimated cost of 50,000/. It was further explained that it could not be expected that the Australasian traffic would be supplemented liy an adequate amount of North American traffic, since, on the one hand, the Post Office is boimd until 1920 to give to one of the cable companies all telegrams for North America which bear no indication of route, and is further bound not to invite the sender to specify a route, while, on the other hand, there is not in either Canada or the United States any system of inland telegraphs of adequate completeness whicli is imlepen- dent of the cable companies. As regards the telegraph advantage of a. State Atlantic cable, it is obvious that reductions of rate are easier to arrange where the whole route is under one control than where the consent of several parties has to be negotiated. The probable amount by which traffic would increase under the stimulus of a given reduction of r.ate can, however, only be estimated with any degree of confidence, if at all, by those who are familiar with the particular class of traffic involved. The bulk of the extra-European cable traffic does not pass through the hands of the Post Office, and the Post Office is not in a position to offer expei't opinion as to the effect of a reduction in the Atlantic rate for Australasian traffic on the revenue derived by a State cable from such traffic. It can only point out that the deficit on a State-owned Atlantic cable would be about 20,000/. a year if it <;arried the pi-esent Pacific traffic at the existing rate ; and th.at there is no satisfactory evidence that a reduction in the rate would result in such an expansion of traffic as would increase the net revenue. As regards efficiency, the existing service pro^'ided by the Atlantic cable companies is admittedly a good one. In these circumstances the Post Office is forced to the conchision that from a commercial point of view the provision of a State cable across the Atlantic is not at present justified. As regards telegraph rates and facilities in general, the Post Office has lost no opportunity of assisting, where circumstances were favourable, in )'eduction of rates and improvement of conditions, and, as the Commission is aware, it is taking power to control rates in connection with the renewal of cable landing rights. The landing licence of the Commercial Cable Company exijires in June 1915. A statementf showing the red\ictions which have been secm'ed within the Empire during the last five See Annexure on \i. 12. f Not printed. years is annexed. The Commission is, it is thought, aware that there have not in this period been any red\ictions in the rates for code telegrams to the British Oversea Dominions. The Post Office, while not committing itself to the maintenance of these rates at their existing amounts, mvist nevertheless point (JUt that the great develcjpment in telegraph codes which has taken place in the last ten years has resvilted in a material reduction in the cost of telegi-aphing in code; even though the nominal i-ate has remained the same. This reduction would not have been possildo but for the decision of the London Telegi-aph Conference of 1903, mainly on the initiative of the British Government, to admit artificial combinations, as distinct from dictionary words, for use as code. This decision, by permitting the use of combination codes, has proved tantamimnt to a reduction in the code rate by at least 50 per cent. The incidence of telegraph rates is obviously much less heavy on users of code than on users of plain language ; and it was in order to benefit those members of the public who were not in a position to use code that the system of lower rates foi- plain language telegi'ams (defeired telegrams and cable letters) was brought into operation. Thus, the essential feature of these services is the use of plain language ; and the suggestions that code telegrams should also be admitted at the same rate on condition of submitting to the same deferment disregard the fact that it was only Hie relatively small proportion of plain language telegrams to code telegi'ams in the cable service which made the reduction practicable. A considerable pro- portion of the code traffic might possibly be defen-ed without detriment to the interests of the sender or addi'essee ; and the introduction of deferred code telegrams might have disastrous financial effects to the cable service. It is not to be inferred, because it is practicable to accept a comparatively small portion of the traffic for transmission at a less busy time at reduced rates, that therefore a large portion of the normal traffic could be similarly accepted. As regards the proposal to allow code words drawn from dictionaries at the defen-ed rates as opposed to artificial code words, experience has shown that it is not practicable for cotuiter clerks to distinguish dictionary words from artificial words. The existing codes of dictionary words are based on the vocabularies of several languages in order to obtain as large a selection of words as possilile, and, in order to avoid confusion with plain language, the compilers of such codes prefer unusual words and words from the less known languages. To distinguish such words from artificial woi'ds requires a linguistic knowledge which counter clerks do not possess. It is certain that a distinction of tariff' between dictionary code and other code would cause great friction and prove impracticable. Suggestions have been made for the further reduction of the deferred and cable letter rates. The general international rule is that the defen-ed rate shall l^e half the ordinaiy rate, and it is probable that extensions of the week-end cable letter system A\-ill be on the basis of charging a quarter of the ordinary rate. The standard proportions can therefore at present be regarded as 1. 2, and 4 corresponding to the ordinary, deferred, ami cable letter rates. These proportions seem suitable, and as the special services have been in existence for less than two years it is not thought likely that the proportions will be altered generally, at any rate for some time to come. It is true that a further reduction has been aiTanged in the deferred service with North America. The possibility of introducing a .similar reduction for Pacific cable ti-affic is a question wliich falls for settlement to the Pacific Cable Boai'd. as does also that of establishing a service of night cable letters to Australasia. As regards the cable letter service with Australasia, the Pacific Cable Board have agreed in principle to reduce the minimum to 20 words, but they have not yet agreed to the single rate, this nritter being still under discussion. The Post Office is not able to speak as to the possibility of a reduction in the ordinary r-ite to B 2 12 POMISION"? ROYAI, COMMISSION 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edwaed CraBB, C.B. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. Austi-alasia. The initiatire in such reduction lies rather with the Pacific Cable Boai-d. who are in the best position to judge of the effect of the reduction on their i-erenue, and who must be supposed, in view of their ofl&cial chai-acter. to hive adp(|uate re^'ard for the interests of the pu))lic. Annexxire. Memomndiim by General Post Office. The provision of a State-owned cable between the United Kingdom and Xortli America has been advocated on three grounds, uamelv : — (1) Contixil in case of emergency. (2) Prevention of monopoly and of a consequent increase of rates. (3) Reduction of rates. As regards control in case of emergency, all the 13 Transatlantic cables from the United Kingdom are landed in North America on Newfoundland or Canadian territory, and the Imperial Government and the Governments of Newfoundland and Canada enjoy as complete control in case of emergency as if the cables were State-owned. As regai-ds the prevention of the establishment of a monopoly and a consequent increase of rates, the e.tistiug Transatlantic cables fall into two entirely indeiiendent groups (the "Western Union group with eight cables and the Commercial group with five cables) which maintain a healthy rivalry with each other by competing strongly for traffic, both in this country and in North America. Moreover, a com- bination to raise rates is practically precluded by the fact that the Postmaster-General has established as a condition of the renewal or transfer of landing licences Government control subject to arbitration, of the rates charged by the Western- Union group of cables, and the same principle will lie applied to the cables of the other group when its licences fall to Ije renewed. As regai-ds the reduction of rates it is assumed that it is contemplated that the proposed State-owned cable would be worked on a commercial basis and that the taxpayer would not be asked to contribute a subsidy in order to cut the rates lielow what would be justifiable from a business standpoint. It would not be justifiable, fi-om this point of view, to lay a State-owned Transatlantic cable for the traffic over the Pacific cable to and from Australasia :is has fi-om time to time been suggested. As explained l>y the Postmaster- Genei-al at the Imperial Cont'ei-enee in June 1911. the total amount of this traffic is less than one-half the amount now carried on the average by each Atlantic cable and less than one-fifth of what a single calile would be capable of can-ying. The estimated receipts at existing rates in respect of the Atlantic transmission of Australasian traffic ai-e not more than 30,0U0/. a year, while the total annual cost of a State-owned Atlantic cable is estimated at not less than 50,000?.. leaving an estimated annual deficit of 20,000/. Interruptions of cables are more frequent in the Atlantic than in the Pacific, and it woidd be undesii-able to rely upon a single cable. If a second cable were pro^•ided the annuiil deficit would be much larger. Neither would it l>e possible \mder pi-esent con- ditions to supplement the traffic for the Pacific cable ■with an adequate amount of North American traffic. Apart from the fact that the Post Office is boimd under Agreement to hand to the Anglo-American Company until January 1920 all telegrams for North America which beai- no indication of route, there is the difficulty that the land telegraphs in the United States, and the greater part, at any rate, of the tele- graphs in Canada, are in the hands of private companies, which ai-e closely connected with the cable companies and would hardly be likely to give facilities to the traffic of a competing State-owned cable as against the interests of the cables which they own or with which they are closely allied. On the other hand the existing cable companies have recently shown themselves responsive to well- con.sidered demands for reductions of tariff. While, as above stated, the Postmaster-General possesses powers of control which could be used to bring about the reductfon of any clearly excessive rates, he would point out that the Ti-ansatlantic cable companies, in common with other companies, recently agi-eed to the system of half-rates for deferred telegrams in plain language and to substantial reductions in the rates for press telegrams exchanged with the British Dominions, and that in the Transatlantic service ariungements have been made for the transmission at greatly i-educed rates of day and week-end cable lettei-s. Apart from these considei-ations. it is doubtful how far it would be expedient to incur large expenditui-e upon the provision of a new State-owned cable sei-vice at the present time in view of the progress of wireless telegraphy and the promise of a cheaper service which that mode of communication affords. General Post Office, London. 30th April 1913. iI'J-l. 1 think there is a further memoi-andum by the General Post Office, is there not. with regard t(.i the cables between the United Kingdom and North America ? — That was sent in some time ago, and I have referred to it here.* It follows the lines of Mr. Samuel's announcement before the Inijjerial Con- ference. 22.J. The most convenient course for us wouM lie that you should be examined on what you liave just read, and deal with the mail matters subsequently ? — As you please. 22t). What was the origin of the Pacific cable ? What waji the object with which it was created!-' — To fiu'iiish an altermitive route to that supplied by the Eastern Telegiuph Company and the allied companies. 227. On account of the high rates then prevailing, or on account of inacciu'ate or delayed service, or for what reason ? — I think it was because the Austi-alasian Colonies felt themselves to be too much at tlie mercy of one line, on account of the high i-ates then prevail- ing, but not on account of any imperfect service given by the company. 228. It was really to meet the desire for lower cable rates ? — I think you may say that. yes. 229. Then you say that when the Pacific cable was established a declai-ation was mide that there was no intention of working the new cable — niimely. the Pacific cable — on other than commercial lines and at remunerative rates. What did you undei-stand by, or what was understood by, ■' commercial lines " ? — The letter was a letter fi'om the Colonial Office, but I imagine that what they meant when thej' said that, was that the cable was not to be used simply to cut i-ates regardless of expense to the taxpayer ; that there was to be a definite commercial retm-n on the cable ; that it was to pay its way, in point of fact. 230. Does that mean, then, that you were Ui im- pose such rates as would give the maximum return independent of the interests of the public r — I doubt if more was meant than that the cable shoidd pay its way. 231. It seems to me i-ather difficult to i-econcile that with the original purpose of the cable, which was to reduce rates ? — The i-ates for the cables coming from the west were reported to be too high. But it has been held by committees, notably by Lord Balfour's Committee, that we are not to use our powers with the cable companies regardless of their financial position, and 1 take it that there was no intention of estabHshing what might be called cut-throat com- petition. 232. But you were to aim at reasonable i-ates in the interests of the companies and in the interests of the public ? — Yes. 233. You say that, as a matter of historical fact, subsidies to cables have not hitherto teen given with a view solely to i-eductions of rate ' — Yes. 234. Ai-e there not precedents in the case of the Zanzibar cable on the East Coast of Africa ? — In the African service subsidies were given to the Eastern Company to lay cables partly for strategic p\irposes, ♦ Annexnre above. MINUTES OF EVIDRXCE. 13 12 Noi-emher 1913.] Mi\ Edward Cbabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications -. Post and Telegraph. aud we seized the opportunity to combine that with the reduction of rates. Perhaps it would be interesting if I read a part of the Treasury minute which relates to the South African rate : " My Lords have before them a '• report on certain proposals for a reduction in the " cable i-ates to South Africa whicli Iia\e resulted from " the recent negotiations between representatives of " the South African Governments and the Eastern '■ and South African Telegrajih Company." They go on to recite the proposals : That on the termination in 1899 of the subsidies at present paid to the company by the associated Governments they shall be re- placed by a new subsidy of 17,000?. payable for 10 years, but the Company shall forthwith make reduc- tions over the whole of the subsidised lines, aud they quote them: " Diu-ing the last five of the •' above-mentioned ten years the Government shall " receive one half of any gross revenue in excess of " 180,000?. " Then this is the important point : - My " Lords desire to record their appreciation of the " efforts which liave been made by the South African " Governments to obtain a reduction in the rates and " the libei'al spii'it in which those efforts have been " met by the Company. They would be glad to render " such assistance as they can towards the attainment " of the object in view. My Lords must, liowever, " point out that it has never been the jiolicy of thi.s " country to subsidise telegraph companies in order tcj " secure or compensate them for reduction in the lutes " charged for ordinary messages. Such a coiu'se would " involve an imposition on the general tax-payer of a " charge which would enable only a limited use ti:) " persons who used tlie cable and coulil not l)e justi- " tied in their Lordships' opinion. From this position " they are not prepared to depart. But as the pro- " posals now before them include a consideral)le re- " duction in the rates for messages sent on public " service my Lords are willing to make such a contri- " bution towards the required subsidy as would " represent the economy which might be expected to " result from the reduction, and in making their calcu- " lations for this purpose they have taken a somewhat " liberal view of the amount of telegraphing which " may be expected to be necessary in the future ; " and in reporting the matter to the House tliey say, " My ■' Lords, having regard to the extent of the telegi-aphic " business of the Government with the Eastern and " South Africa Companies and to the saving from the " reduction of the charges for Government telegrams, " consider themselves justified in asking Parliament " to ratify the agreements in question." That posi- tion, I think, we still hold, although there is the salient exception provided in the last agreement with the West India and Panama. \l'.i!j. Would you kindly explain the proposed arrangement for a subsidy with the West India and Panama? — That is a su})sidy to the company half- and-half between ourselves and Canada aud adopted at the instance of tlie Canadian Government to pay tlie West India and Panama Company, on con- dition that they reduced their rates, Ki.OOO/. a year, shared equally by the Imperial and Canadian Govera- ments for ten years, plus existing subsidies of 10.:?00/. a year from the West Indies for the same term, aud after the first four years one-lialf of the amount, if any. by which the revenue exceeds the existing revenue (the existing revenue being taken at 74.000/.) will be deducted from the subsidy up to the total amount of the subsidy. The chief reductions are : The ordinaiy rates between the British West Indies, including British Guiana on the one hand and the United Kingdom and the first zone of North America on the other, will lie reduced to 2s. 6d. and Is. 6d. a word respectively. The existing rates from the United Kingdom were from 3s. 6rf. to 5s. The first zone of North America includes the New England States and New York and the neai-est Canadian provinces and Newfoundland. " The rates between the British " West Indies, including British Guiana, thus \viU be " reduced by half, with a maximum of Is. 3d. a word " and a minimum of Is. a message ; the press also to " be reduced to one half the new ordinary rates, plus " a further reduction of lid. a word for Transatlantic " transmission made by the Western Union." That is an exception to the ordinary practice, and is a subsidy given directly for the reduction of rates to the West Indies. 236. And is therefore an infraction of the principle ? — Is therefore a departure from the policy ordinarily followed. 237. Turning to the question of the Atlantic cable you state that the revenue expected can only be 30,0O0Z. a year against an annual estimated cost of .50,000?. a year?— Yes. 238. That is entirely Australian traffic outside any- thing which can be hoped for from Canada or the United States ?— Yes. 239. Do you not anticipate any traffic at all fi-om Canadian sources ? — No, it is not safe to anticipate any because the land lines in Canada as well as in tiie United States are in the hands of private companies, the companies which run the cables, and there is no reason to suppose that they would go out of their way to hand over messages to a State-owned cable which was competing with them. 240. Is that a satisfactory state of affairs, that all Canadian traffic should be routed away from the pro- posed North Atlantic cable ? — It is a matter which we, on this side, can scarcely interfere with. There have been proposals again and again renewed, that the United States and Canada respectively should buy up the laud lines and start a Government system of telegraphs. They have not come to anything yet so far as I know ; and all we (^au say, looking at it from this side of the Atlantic, is that it is bound to be enormously expensive. 241. What are your powers over the Atlantic Cable C(nnpanies ? — We cimtrol the rates for the Western Union group, aud shall control the rates for the Commercial group as soon as the Commercial Com- pany's licence falls in in 191.5. We control them by virtue of our power to suspend the landing hcence, but that power can only be used to a limited extent. As I have already explained, we were told emphatically — in the last instance by Lord Balfour of Bm-leigh's Committee — that we were not to use that power regard- less of the position of the companies ; it was to be used mainly to meet unreasonable proposals from them or unreasonable rates. 242. Can it be used to obtain reductions which you think reasonable ? — It can be used very sparingly. It is obvious that it must be used with tlie greatest discretion. 243. You depend, then, on the competition between the two Atlantic cable groups for any possible reduction of Atlantic rates ? — On that and the possible effect of wireless traffic. 244. Are the two Atlantic cable groups in free competition ? — -Yes, they are in very sharp competition. 245. Do you anticipate any reduction in the Atlantic rates independently of what might be brought about by a State Atlantic cable? — The Postmaster-General. in negotiating with the Western Union Cable Company, distinctly declined to commit himself to any statement that he might not ask for a f m-ther reduction in future. Of course we secured reductions from that group a little time ago, and he warned tliem fairly then that it miglit be the case that he should ask for further reductions in the future, l>ut there is no j^roposal to do so at present. 246. Now you say hei-e that the recent decision permitting the use of combination codes lias proved tantamount to a reduction in the code rate by at least 50 per cent. ? — Yes, that is om- estimate. 247. If that is so, your deferred rate, which is half your full rate, and which prohibits code, is practically a very small concession ■ — It is a concession made to the users of plain language, to the people who are not supposed in the ordinary way to use code. 248. You see great difficulty in allowing dictionary words to be used in these deferred telegrams ?— I think it is practically impossible; we have tested it and found it impossible to distinguish dictionary words from words which are not dictionary words. To do so om- counterman — the telegraphist — the man who accepts the telegram over the counter of the office — would have to be very closely acquainted with eight u DOMINIONS llOiAL COMMISSION : 12 November litl3.] Mr. Edwahd Cbabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. languages. I remember that when we were ti-ying to enforce the use of dictionary words a man would come in, ijutting perhaps an Italian prefix to a Latin snflSx, and claim that that was a tlictionary word. The counter clerk i|ueried it, and the sender would prac- tically throw it upon him t<i say why it was not a dictioniiiy word, and this it was impossible for him to do ; there was constant friction between the pnbhc and our comiter clerks. 249. Would it not be possible to have your own code which would be aUowable for defen-ed telegrams y —You mean that we should build up a code of oiu- own ? 2.50. Yes.— Composed of .= 2-51. Dictionary words. — It would be possible to do so, of course ; I do not think it would be effective. 2'y2. Do you see ;uiy objection to the idea .= It might prove a considerable facilitation for the users of defei-red telegrams; they could not use their own private codes of composite words, but a specified dictionary would be allowable ; it would be an inter- mediate stage between plain language and code ? — Again, I think there would lie a difficulty on the part of the counter clerk iu deciding whether this code was being used or not — whether .the words used were dictlonaiy words. He deals with a telegram hajided in to him : he sees some luieouth-lookmg compovmd and questii)U.s thiit that is a tlictionary word. He has not neces.sarUy got the code which we have buUt up ; it would be a very expensive business to supijly it to every office. The man handing it in says, - This is a dictionary word," whereas it is not as a matter of fact. Look at the words used iu a dictionary code now. Some of the compounds (I do not know all the eight languages) are to me luirecognisable as words. 253. Siu-ely that difficulty could be got over by giving your counter clerk copies of yom- code H — It would be very expensive ; there are a good many offices in England. Your code would be a large one to be of service 2.">4. Then this Commission sent home from Aus- tralia certain proposals for the facilitiition and the extension of the use nf deferred and week-end tele- gi-ams. I shoidd like you to give us one by one the views of the Post Office upon those pi-oposals. I will read them out for your information. We suggest '■that the minimum length of week-end telegrams " (of 24 words) " should be reduced to 12 words, costing t> shillings '' ? — I feel some doubt as to whether I am the proper witness, with submissinn, to be a.sked this par- ticular question. We are in correspondence with the Cable Board, and the Cable Board have iu effect agreed to a minimum of 20 words, but we do not control them, and while we are iiuite willing that this should be carried into effect — or jjiut of it at least — it is for them to say, really. 255. Quite, but speakiug solely from the Post Office point of view, do you see any objections to the pro- posals which we madey — The Post Office would not object to a reduction of rate if that can lie effected. AVliat it is particularly anxious for at present in the week-end calde message is the introduction of .the single i-ate ; that is to say, that you should be able to charge a i-ate here when the message is handed iu that will cover telegi-aphic transmission to the destina- tion and, if necessary, telegraphic transmission to the cable at tliis end. Of com-se a message is transmitted over the cable by telegraph, but at either end it can be sent by post — either or both : and we find that that causes au infinity of trouble in om- office. The sender finds a difficulty in \inderstanding the regulations, and our counter clerks find a difficulty in ascertaining what it is he wants. 256. That was one of our further recommendations which I imderstaud the Post Office is strongly in favoiu- of H — Yes, very strongly in favour- of it. 257. Our second proposal was that " dictionaiy " code words might be permitted in defeiTed telegrams ; that you have already dealt with ? — Yes. 258. •■ We are further informed that a further " reduction t>f six pence per word iu week-end messages " would lead to. a large extension of weekly telegraphic " market reports and to some replacement of post by " calde."' Can you give any opinion upon that ? — That is. the chai-ge for week-end telegrams to be reduced to 6d. ? 25!1. Yes, from 9rf.— The rate of 9(?. was fixed by the Pa<'ific Cable Board, iuid it seems suitalile having regard to the existing ordiuarj- and deferred rates, but it is a matter really for the Pacific Cable Board to consider rather than for us. 260. As far as the Post Office is concemed, I take it you have no objection ? — We have no rooted objection. 2l>l. Can you give us any general view as to the effect of reductions of rate on the development of ti-affic in these long cable routes ? — I do not think we can give much that is useful; the cable comj)anies themselves. I think, are the only people who could give you information that would be worth much. I have some figures hei-e of i-ather old date, but I do not wish to place very much weight on them. In May 1886 the rate to New York was reduced from Is. 8'/. to 6d., as a cutting rate in the competition between the Atlantic cable companies. The reduced i-ate was in operation two years, and according to statements made to us then by the Anglo-American Telegraph Comjiany the reduction resulted in ;in iucx-eased ti-affic of 140 per cent. The financial effect was very unsatisfactory, and the i-ate was ultimately incx-eased to Is. The voliune of traffic remained about the same. It was afterwards stated to us that when the traffic had settled down to the new rate it was about 20 per cent, less than the ti-affic at the Ctd. i-ate. Then to India in 1902 the rate was i-educed from is. to 2«. (yd. The increase of traffic was siiid to have amounted to about 26 • 5 per cent. It was part of the arrangement between the Indian Government and the cable companies, that when the gross revenue at 2«. Gd. equalled the revenue at 4s. the rate shoidd Ije further reduced to 2s. The reduction was made in 1905, and Mr. Austen Chamberlain, then Chancellor of the Excheiiuer. said he did not think the great iucrease of traffic which had ensued had been caused by the reduc- tion in the rates. He attributed it to other causes. I ha\e some fm-ther figuies vdth regard to the South African imtes which may te of interest. The i-ates to South Africa were reduced in 1899 to 4s.. in 1901 to ;5s. dd.. in 1902 to 3s.. and in 1903 to 2s. 6d. a word. The residts, I think, show how difficult it is to assess the effect of the reduction of rate by itself on traffic. Of course, there were disturbing factors here in the form of the war and other matters, liut the net result is that in 1911 the Company was earning at a 2s. Gd. rate almost exactly the same gross I'evenue as in 1898 at the 5.S. rate ; in other words, it was doing twice the amount of work for the same money. I only quote these figures to show how extremely difficult it is for us, at least in the Post Office, to form anj' judgment. There ai-e disturbing factors here in the form of dejiression of trade and the war which make them valueless. 202. I understand, in Australia and New Zealand, the reductions in telegraph rates which have lieen made there have resulted in very large increases of traffic and the utilisation of facilities by the public)' — The increases of late have been mainly in the direction of the deferred telegram and the cable letter work tlu-ough the Pacific cable. ijtio. What is yom- view as to the success of those two experiments .'' — Of the deferred telegram and the cable letter ? 264. Yes. — It must be admitted that they meet a great want. There must be people who, while wishing to send intelligence to their friends quicker than ciin be done liy the post, do not min<l 24 or 48 hours' deferment, and to those people I imagine that the cable letter and the deferred telegram must pi-ove a great Ixjon. 265. Has the growth of that ti-affic been satis- factory ? — Yes. 266. Although, as it was stated to us, in Austi-alia the pid'lic are very imperfectly acquainted with the facilities now offered .■* — If it is meant that the public in England are imperfectly acquainted, the statement MINUTES OF EVIDENCB, 15 12 Ntrvemher 1913.] Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Overaea Communications ; Post and Telegraph. seems scarcely justified. We did all we could to acquaint the public ; we advertised it ; full iiarticulars were g-iven in the Post Office Guide, which can be consulted free of charge at any jjost office ; and we placarded the post offices with it ; and our counter clerks woidd know, if any person eomes in and wishes to send a telegram to Australasia, and is in doubt what to do, and asks for information, that these facilities should be brought to his notice. I do not see that we can easily do more. 267. I do not know the statement was made that it was imperfectly known in England, but imperfectly known in Australia ? — It may be there ; I cannot tell ; l)ut in England I think we have done all we can do. 268. You have given the fullest publicity to the facilities oifered ? — Yes, quite as full publicity as we do to any other improvement. 269. (Sir Alfred Bate nan.) As regards that publicity, I tliink in Australia, so far from publicity having been given, we were told at one or two places that the counter clerks did not know of these facilities ; you think that could never be the case here .' — I think it would be an irregularity if it were the case here ; if the counter clerk said he did not know of these facilities, we should want to know why that counter clerk was not properly acquainted with his duty. 270. You think that would be imiiossible here F — Nothing is impossible, because people are forgetful and foolish, but it ought to be impossible. 271. You quoted the case of South Africa and the reductions there at the cost of doing double work for the same money ; did it cost you more ? — It did cost the company more. 272. In increasing the load, the number of messages up to a certain point, does that cost more ? — You have got so much less per word. The old rate was os. a word, and the new rate 2s. 6d. a word, and you did twice the amount of biisiness. 27;?. You have double the numlier of words ; does that necessarily cost more? — Certainly, you are using your cable more ; you are using your staff more if you increase the traffic, and if you increase the traffic Ijeyond a certain point, supposing you have a cable loaded nearly up to its full capacity, and you put 50 per cent, on to the load, you may increase your expenses enormously because you may liave to lay a new cable. 274. But up to a certain point only, using your cable more would not necessarily cost anything, would it ? — I think it must cost you more if only in expenses for staff. 275. You mean that the staff were fully employed before P — The cost would be under staff' and mainten- ance. I take it the cable companies supply an excess staff no more than we do ; it would be bad adminis- tration to do so. 276. Is it at all easy to arrange the staff' so as not to have a certain amount of spare time ? — In arranging staff yoB must have a certaiUi amount of spare time. In no staff with which I am acquainted is a man occupied every minute of every day during tlie time he is on duty, but you must always leave a margin, and if you double the amount of work done in your office, while you need not double the staff', perhaps, you must largely increase it. 277. In the South African case tliere was a large further exjpense incui-red ? — I presume so ; we are talking of the calile company of course, and I have not the Eastern Telegraj)h Company's accounts. I simply know that their revenue, the amount they tcjok for doing double the amount of woi'k, was just the same as they were taking in 1898. I cannot go fm-ther than that their expenses were presumably much increased. 278. But you have not the figures and you do not know about the expenses ? — I have not the company's figures and I cannot know that. 279. Only one other point ; you spoke about the North American traffic and its condition by which you are allowed until 1920 to give to one of the cable companies all telegrams for Noi-th America which bear no indication of route ; and you are boimd not to invite the sender to specify a route. That was rather a, valuable consideration, was it not ? — Yes. * 280. Did you get much for it ? — We inherited it. 281. You did not make that concession yourself? — The history of it is this, that when the telegraphs in England were taken over by the State the Land Company that we bought up was tied to two cable companies (one of those cable companies no longer exists) and was bound to give them all its traffic. We took that obligation over and it was an obligation which lasted for 30 years, that is to say from 1870 up to 1900. We also took over an obligation that the company had a claim to a renewal, and the comisany did claim a renewal in 1900, and ^vished to go on until 1930. It was compromised at 1920. Subsequently the Anglo-American, which is the company in ques- tion, was practically amalgamated' with the Western Union. 282. So that you partly inherited this condition and you bargained about it ? — Yes, we bargained about the extension — the extension from 1900. They had a claim for an extension. 283. You consider they had a good claim for an extension ; you could not have got out of it altogether ? — We could not ha'.-e got out of it, but we got out of 10 years — 10 years of their claim. 284. I gather you are in thorough sympathy with a i-eduction in the deferred rates so as to make com- mmiications witli om- kinsmen in Australia easier ? — We are always ready to assist at a reasonable reduction of rate. 285. But you spoke yourself just now about the desirability of people there being able to communicate home ? — I said I thought the deferred i-ate had been a great boon to many people ; I think it has, and I think it has justified itself. 286. You take it a little bit beyond the bare com- mercial view ? — Yes, we get outside the commercial limit sometimes, 287. A little bit now and then ? — We are bound to be primarily commercial. 288. (Mr. Gamphell.) As to the competition between these rival combinations which control the Atlantic cables, is it not a fact that there is an agreement between these combinations in regard to i-ates ? — Not that I know of ; if one set fetches down its rates the other has to bring them down also, otherwise it gets less traffic, but I do not know myself of any agi-eement. I imagine that they consult each other; I have no doubt they do. 289. Is there not, as a matter of fact, an mider- standing between them with regard to rates ? — Not that I know of ; if so it is a private understanding with which I am not officially acquainted. 290. That is the thing on which the department depends for any reduction of rates which might be expected in the Atlantic business — that competition ?— On that and on oui- control of the landing rights and as a mere possibility, the force of which one cannot assess now, the competition of wireless. 291. Did I understand you to say in reply to the Chairman that the Post Office would be very cautious about exercising its power over the landing riglits in order t© compel a reduction ? — It is not an absolute control ; all we can do if we refuse landing rights, unless they specify i-eductions, wovdd be, if the com- pany chose to lie obdurate, to take them before the Railway Commission ; and the Railway Commission is bound to have consideration of the company's financial position, among other things. It is not in our power to say simply, " If you do not reduce " your rate from one shilling to sixpence, you had " better take up your cable," l>ecause they have got an appeal. 292. The idea is that it woidd be exercised in the event of an increase of rates ; is that it ? — It would be properly exercised against anj-thing vmreasonable, but we should have to show that what we were objecting to was unreasonable, having regai'd not only to the interests of the public, but to fair consideration fox the company's jiosition. 293. With regard to the statement of the Post Office that they would not expect any volnme of B 1 IfJ DOMINIONS ROYAJ. COMMISSION : VZ Kovcmhc- 191:!.] Mr. Edwakd C'kabu, [Oversea Coinmunicntiinis : I'oat mnl Teleyraph. Cauadian business on an Atlantic cable, the reason why that increase is not expected is stated to be to the fact that the land line is within the control of the cable companies operating acmss the Atlantic? — Yes. the land lines are part of the cable companies' system. 29-i. Is that a fact? Is it not a fact that the Pacilic Cable Board at present controls the main line as far as Montreal ? — As far as Montreal, yes ; it rents the line, but that means that the Calile Board can g;et its Austi-alian ti-affic transmitted to Montreal over its own lines, but you will want traffic coming not only from places on that line — to make any diiference you ■ivill ■want tiTiffic coming from the whole of Canada or traffic coming from the United States as well, and if it is handed in at any place other than the Pacific Cable Board's office 295. Quite so, but still it would give a reasonable expectation that a large vohmie of traffic could be expected from Western Canada over the Atlantic cables ?■ — The Pacific Cable Board themselves do not seem to expect it : in point of fact, the calctdations on ■which we base our statement there are Pacific Calile Board calculations. 29fi. With regard to the loss which is theorised, to what year do those figures refer on which that expected loss of 20,000/. a year is based ? — On the existing figures : originally when Mi\ Samuel made his speech before the Imperial Conference we estimated the loss at 30.000?.. but the Pacific Cable Board traffic has gone up since then, we understand, so we cut our estimate of loss to 20.000/. to allow for that. 297. Then in a year — or, rather, in two years — the expected loss has fallen from 30,000/. to 20,000/. ; do you not think there is a reasonable expectation that within a short period of time the loss would be trans- formed into a profit ? — I do not know that you can count upon the cable companies maintaining their existing rates if they wanted to face the competiticm of a State-owned cable. It is clear that you can lay a State-owned cable if yoxi like, and use it to cut rates. You can, in point of fact, get anything yovi please that you can pay for, whether you pay your money in the form of subsidy or a State-owned cable, or guarantee of a company's revenxie ; the epiestion, which is not one for me, is, whether it would be justifiable to lay upon the general taxpayer that cost for the benefit of a compai-atively small traffic and the people making it. 298. One would think it would be quite as fair as to invest the taxpayers' money in the Pacific cable, which has been losing money heavily since — at any Incite, it was losing money heavily about the beginning of its career ? — Yes. 299. That was the taxpayers' money ? — Yes. 300. It was expended in the expectation that ulti- mately the line would pi-ove a commercial success, was it not ? — Yes, it has not proved a commercial success yet, of coui'se, but it may. It will take time befoie it will be a commercial success in the way in which a commercial man calculates intei'est on his money. 301. Quite so; but a ccmimercial success looked at from the point of view of the return of interest on the Government expenditui-e. Could you give the Com- mission any idea as to what is the relative value of the sei-vices performed by the Pacific Cable Board and the Atlantic cable companies in the transmission of messages. Is there a fair allocation of cliarges now on the total of the messages ? — Yes, I should think there is. 302. You think the amount (lie Pacific Cable Board gets in comparison with the ([uantity of woi-k it does is proportioned to the amount received l>y the Atlantic cable companies ? — I slightly misiuiderstood the ques- tion. Yes, I should think it is, fairly. 303. You think that propoi-tion is a fair one ? — Yes. 301. In reply to the Chairman, you gave some figiu'es dealing with the eifect of the reduction of rates. Some of the figures you gave were those relating to the Eastern Extension Company's business ■with South Africa ? — Yes. 305. And I think you quoted the years 1898, when the rate was 5,«. a word, and 1911, when it had lieen i-educed to 2s. 6(i. ? — Yes. 306. That was so. was it not? — Yes; in 1898 it was a OS. rate, and in 1911 it was a 2*-. M. rate. 307. But even on those figures, do they not show that the volume of business had increased meanwhile — had doubled? — Yes; the interesting point. 1 think, is that the calile company got almost exactly the same amount for the 5s. rate that it did ioT the 2s. %d. rate. I mean in gross revenue. 308. The company was still making a profit out of its business ? — That I cannot say ; the company pays a dividend and a good one. but whether they would admit they made a profit over that section of their lines I do not know. 309. Still the fact remains that the company's business had doubled in the meanwhile ?; — Yes. 310. And, as a matter of fact. I suppose you have the figures for 191(* and 1912 before you, wliich show that in 1910 the receipts were 290,000/. and in 1912 278.000/., as against 271,000/. in 1911 ?— Your figures do not quite agree with mine ; it is about that, but I only quoted these South African figures, if I may remind you. to show that we really had very little trustworthy information, and that the Post Office was not in a position to offer you any expert evidence on the effect of the reduction of rate on ti^affic. 311. Yes. but I think you will admit that the year 1911 shows figures which are more favotu-able to the riew you are apparently piutting before the Commis- sion than any other of the four years backwards from the pi-esent date ? — If I had taken the period from 1898 to 1908 I think my view would have been still more strongly enforced. 312. But "1909. 1910, and 1912 would show — 1909 and 1910 were better yeai-s — 1912 also is a somewhat better year. 313. On the subject of the expected increase of traffic from a reduction of rates, do you not think that in Australia, where there is a very ineffective postal communication, where there is two months between a mail and a reply, as compared with 1 2 days in America, there would be a very much larger field for an expected increase of business resulting from a reduction of I'ates than there would be in the case of America ? — It might be so. 314. You think that would be so ? — It might be so. The existence of the high teiininal Australian rate has a bearing on the question. 315. I did not quite catch you. — New Zealand. I think, has put foi-ward a proposal that the terminal Australian rate should be reduced from bd. to \d. — ad. is the present share that Australia takes — and Australia has not hitherto seen her way to reduce it. That is a tolerably obvious reduction of rates in hands othei- than ours, and that would be practically a certain reduction of 4(7. a word. 31 li. On the subject of codifying, you made some replies to the Chairman : could you tell the Com- mission what is the saving on the coding of a message as against plain language messages ? — I cannot very certaiidy. When Mr., now Sir John, Lamb, a much greater expert in these matters than I could claim to be, came before one of the former Committees, if my memory ser\-es me, he then estimated that the average code wo'-d equalled seven words in plain language, and he put in a code message where one word equalled 128 words in plain language ; and the cable companies always tell us that the number of jilain language words represented by one code com- bination is veiT high indeed. 1 have very little means of knowing, because, naturally, when a man hand.s in a telegram he does not also hand in a translation, and it may represent anything. But there is no doubt that a man <-an now under the new codes, which enable him to use really what is called a condensed code — that is, a code on a code — if he likes, take more plain language into his code message than he cotdd befiue. Whether he does it or not I cannot say, because I take it that it is quite possible that a man may write down his plain- language message and hand it to his clerk, and say, "Code that for me as cheaply as you can " ; and the clerk may code it cheaply or not ; but supposing that six plain words to a code combination is the correct MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 17 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edwaed Ceabb, c.b. [Ooeraea Communications : Post and Telegraph. amount, then wlien you use a code to Australia you are telegraphiuy; to Australia very cheaply ; you are telegraphing at sixpence a word. 317. You have not got any reliable figures that you could give us to show the saving on code messages y — No ; I think you will see it is impossible for me to give any. I am simply guessing. 318. (Mr. Garnett.) When we were in Australia we heard certain cases which seemed to us to inflict eon- sideralile hardship on persons sending week-end cables from this country. We were told that there was not sufficient knowledge available here for them to be aware that they could only cable to the cable centres, and that unless they paid another 6f/. to have their week-end cable sent on, these messages might be weeks before they reached their destination. Is there no means whereby jieople on this side could have it set plainly before them that if they send a cable-letter to Australia, an<l if they want this transmitted at once, they have an e.xtra 'nd. tcj pay ? It seems to lis that lack of knowledge as to this might inflict very great hardship ? — We give the information now as far as we can. In the Post Oflice Guide, which may be con- sulted free of charge at any post office, there is a full statement of the conditions under which a cable-letter can be sent. We placarded the post offices with the announcement of the introduction of the cable-letter system, and those placards remain there, and our counter clerks, who receive the telegrams over the counter, are neglecting their duty if, when a man comes to the office and says, " I want to telegraph to Australia " (to some place, perhaps, in the back part of Austi-alia), " what is the cheapest way in which I can do it ? " they do not briug the facilities fully before him. We cannot do any more than we do. May I ask is there any suggestion of what other steps we can take ? I do not think there was any such suggestion in the evidence you are referring to. 319. The evidence I am referring to was the evidence of Mr. Osenham, the Secretary of the Post- master-General's department in Melbourne, and the questions are on pages 175 and 176* arising out of questions put by Mr. Bowring and myself — particularly question 38.57 by Mr. Bowring ?— 1 do not see that Mr. Oxenham proposes any additional measures to be taken here. .320. And subsequent questions asked by myself. Question 3870 to question 3877 and its answer, and 3878, and the two or three following questions. It seemed to us to be making a very large demand on the knowledge of the average individual in England in expecting him to be aware that a week-end cable letter which he might send in the faith of its being delivered very quickly, might be weeks before reaching its destination, and the question we addressed to the witness was : Is there any means whereby the Ansti-alian Postal Guide coidd be so improved as to make the information more accessible to yom- clerks here in England, and therefore more accessible to people who wished to cable ? Mr. Oxenham said it was not impossible, but that it would be a very big job — see his answer to question 3878. — The clerk who receives the messages here has a list of telegraph offices. If a man were sending a cable letter to a place which did not contain a telegraph office that would be kno^NTi or could be known ; they have a list of all the telegraph offices. The senderof a cable letterl suppose is generally telegraphing to his friend or his relation and it is surely for him to know what kind of place it is at which Ills friend or relation is living. He cannot reasonably call upon the post office to go beyond a certain length in supplying his failure to "furnish himself with information. 321. (Chairman.) That is, providing that the message goes by telegram to its destination, which I think you say you desire ? — Yes, what we wish is that the single rate should cover transmission by telegram to the destination, and we hope to get the Pacific Gable Board to agree to that : we are negotiating now. * Of [Cd. 7171]. c 20830 322. (Mr. Ganieft.) The particular cases we were tliinking of were not cases in the course of an ordinary day or couples of days' passage ; those are not the cases of hardship. The cases of hardship are those where several weeks perhaps may elapse, but Mr. Oxenham says in answer to question 3861 that cable letters "■could get by telegraph to every plaee where there is a telegraph office ; which practically means to every settlement of any size in Australia ? — Yes. 323. Is it beyond the power of the combined efforts (if the two Postal Authorities, here and in Australia, to compile a list whereby the man who sends a tele- gi-am by looking at the place may know that if he wants it to get away in a reasonable time to its destination he must pay an extra 6d. ; it is the ignoi-ance of the extra 6d. which has to be paid for delivei-y which constitutes the hardship ? — 1 think that, if I may hand it to yoM (lianding the Post Office Guide to the Honourable Commissioner), that is a pretty fidl explanation, but if you can suggest anything that could be added to that page which would meet your view, I am quite sure we should be ready to take any steps you can suggest to us. That book is in every post office, and can be consulted by everyone who comes in to send a telegram. 324. Then you would agree generally with Mr. Oxenliam's policy, that the sender should have no trouble at all with his message, and that it should be transmitted subsequently by telegram without the sender being bothered about that ? — Yes. 325. That it should be a through rate ? — Yes. that is what we wish, and that is what we are trying to arrange with the Pacific Cable Board, and we hope we shall succeed. 326. (Chairman.) That is what you mean by a single rate, really an inclusive rate ? — That is so. 327. (Mr. Garnett.) That would, of course, meet these cases which we have specifically in our minds .' — Yes. 328. (Mr. Bowring.) You referred to the difficulty there would be, if there was a State-owned Atlantic cable, in getting through messages from Australasia, because there was no control by the Pacific over the land lines ? — You would get the ti-affic from Austra- lasia, the Pacific Cable Board could route that. You would not get all the traffic the other way, nor would you get traffic to supplement your Australasian traffic from Canada or the United States itself. The Pacific Cable Board calculated that three-foui-ths of the Australasian traffic would go to the proposed State- owned cable, and it is on the assumption that three- fourths of the traffic would go to the cable that we made our calcidations. 329. And upon that you show a big loss? — Upon that we think there would be a loss of 20.000?. under present conditions. 330. But it would not appear that the land lines create any great difficulty if the control of the Pacific comes as far east as Montreal .■* — I thiuK, perhaps, I have been misunderstood ; I was answering the Chair- man's question, if I remember aright, whether we could expect any traffic over the State-owned cable from the United States or Canada itself to supplement the Australasian traffic. The Australasian iriiffic is not enough to make the cable pay. If you could supple- ment that traffic by traffic from Canada or the United States the circumstances would be altered, but we have no hope of doing so. 331. And it was in that way that the difficulty came in with the land lines ? — Yes 332. Not the difficulty in connecting the Pacific cable with the proposed State-owned Atlantic cable ? — No, there is no difticulty in that. If you had the State- owned cable, you would have to rent or set up land lines between Montreal and the cable-landing station, and it is that which goes to make part of the assumed capital expenditure of 560,000/. ; but there would be no difficulty about that. 333. The land part of it from Montreal to the east coast would not be very much ? — No. 334. At the present time, while there is competition between the Atlantic cables in endeavouring to get as great a part of the business as they can, there is no IS DOMiyiOyS ROYAL COMMISSION : 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edward Crabb. c.k 'Orrmea Coininunicotions : Post ami Telegraph. difference in rates, is there ? — There is no difference in rate, except that the Commercial group did not in every case cive a similar reduction to that given by the Western Union on the defeiTcd press. They did not follow suit altogether. 33.5. The Commercial did not foUovr suit on the press rate : in everv' other way the rates are the same ?^ — The rates, taken generally, are the same. o36. On these deferred rates were the addi-esses allowed to l>e coded in any way. that is to say, addresses on deferred and week-end messages, or had the ad- dresses to be in full ; in other words, could you have a short registered address? — Ton can. use a regis- tered addi-ess for defen-ed messages as well as yov can for an ordinary message. Tou must use plain l;ui- guage in your te3d:. -337. Coidd you code the address? — Tou can use a registered address. 338. (Chairman.) Both for deferred and week-end ? — Ton cannot for the week-end cable letter, uidess delivered by telegram, when you can do it. If it is delivered by post, you must have your fiill postal address. Nor can we consent to such an altei-ation. because it would form a precedent adverse to our refusal to admit telegiaphie addi-esses as good for letters. If you telegraph your week-end cable letter all the wav. then you can use your telegi-ajihic address. 339. And that you advocate ? — That we advocate. 340. So that in effect you advocate the possibility of using telegi-aphic addresses for week-ends ? — Tes. 341? (Mr. Bowring.) Can you tell me if theiT was any alteration in the dividends of the cable companies whilst the fif?. i-ate was in vogue ? Tou remember you referred to the f>>i. i-ate having been adopted in certain years — 1896. I think ? — There was a heavy loss on that 6<7. rate in the revenue, but I forget whether they continued to pay a dividend or not. 342. Did not you say they did about double the business for about the same revenue? — 140 per cent., but their reveniie dropped tremendously. 343. I think you said they did twice the business for the same revenue ? — I think you are confusing two cases, that of the Transatlantic company and that of the South African i-ates. There was a Is. Sd. rate when the Transatlantic cable companies fell into very sharp competition, and the rates came down to 6f7. I have some figures from the Anglo-American Company at that time and their revenue dropped very heavily indeed. The reduction proved unremunei-ative. 344. Did the traffic increase ? — By 140 per cent. The reduction was from Is. 8d. to Gd. 345. Tou say the revenue fell tremendously? — It fell tremendously. 346. Do VOX! know whether that had any effect on the dividend ? — I cannot say. 347. (Mr. Tatlow.) With regard to tliis proposed Atlantic cable, if the estimate of the Post Office had be«n to show that the cable would be anywhere near self-paying. I presume the Post Office then would be in favour of such a proposal — if instead of a loss of 20,000?. it had been -iome inconsiderable sum ? — The Post Office position is that the present time is inopportune in all ways. We know that wireless tele- graphv is developing by leaps and bounds. We do not know what effect wireless telegrapliy may have in cutting rates, and no sooner would the State-owned cable be laid than you might find there was no chance of making it pay at the new figures. 348. Then it is chiefly on the score of what wireless telegraphy may fulfil that tlip Post Office objection exists ? — No, I think the Post Office objection is mainly based on what it considers to be the absence of good reasons alleged on the other side. 349. Does not the good reason alleged on the other side probably tend to reduction of charges and keeping the control of the cable throughout in Imperial hands. and so meet the express wish of the Oversea Dominions ? — We are always "most anxious to meat the express wish of the _ Oversea Dominions, but if the single cable barely pays its way one single interruption would throw you on the wrong side of the balance sheet again. Interruptions are more frec^uent, oi- have been at present far more frequent, in the Atlantic than in the Pacific, apparently due to some difference iu the sea-bed. Tou might have to lay another cable and that probably would double yoirr cost. 350. But that risk exists at present in a lesser degree, you say. in the Pacific cable ? — It exists to a lesser degree in the Pacific cable, and at any time a bad interruption might alter the figiu-es for the Pacific cable.. 3.51. The effect of an interruption would be to reduce their profit or income for a given time ? — Tes. 3.52. It would not affect the public iu any con- siderable degree, because the business coidd be done by the other parties ? — Tou would have the alternative routes. 3.53. Do you not think that estimate of a loss of 20,000/. looks a little worse than is warranted by the facts ? Have yon taken into account the natural yearly increase in the business of telegraphy ? — Tes. 354. And, again, does it not appear as if there will be further advantages given by the Pacific Cabin Board and that business will very largely increase from Australasia ? Will not that minimise greatly, in the com-se of ye;irs, this estimated 20.000/. loss ? — We calculate to get three-quarters of the Australasian westward traffic as it is and all the eastward: I do not know why we should get very much more. 355. No, but is it not likely that the bulk of that will increase largely ? The business is not likely to stand still, especially in view of the additional facilities which are contemplated ? — That is so : the traffic might increase. 356. Considerably. Would it not reduce this 20.000/. to a comparatively small simi — such a sum that the countries concerned might very well bear it, and which in the course of yeai-s would probably disappear ? — We cannot tell. 357. To my mind it seems veiy probable. Another question : Assuming this Atlantic cable were made, would it be administered by the Pacific Cable Boai-d as an extension of the present cable ? — It might be worked in several ways ; it might be jointly owned by England and Canada. 358. In any case it would give Britain and the Dominions a very large control, and a greater conti"ol than they have at present, with reference to the ques- tion of rates ? — Certainly ; you can lay your cable and use it to cut rates. If you cut rates you increase your ti'affic. 359. Haa the Pacific Cable Board, apart from its obligations, whatever they may be, to the Eastern Telegraph Company, a free hand as a Boai-d with regai-d to the fixing of the charge ? — They could say, •• We •■ will take so much, or we will take so much less." 360. Is the Post Office represented on that Board ? — This country is represented. 361. What is the real distinction — I do not quite understand — between week-end cable letters and week- end cablegrams ; is there any distinction ? There is only one week-end rate to Australia : is that a week-end cablegram or cable letter, or is there any distinction ? —There is no distinction ; we call them cable letters. 362. That means a cablegram with a minimum number of words, does it not? — Tes. it is a short letter sent by cable. Of course, you can send a telegram by cable at th« week-end. if yon like, in the ordinary way. 363. (Jfr. Larimer.) In yoiu- memorandum a refer- ence is made to the contention that a State-owned calile should be laid across the Atlantic in case of emergency, and your reply is that that emergency can be met perfectly well \inder present conditions ; will you kindly say how it could be met ? — I am prepared to support that contention. 364. It is stated in the memorandum on a State- owned Atlantic cable fiu-nished by the General Post Office to the Commission. — At present the 13 cables across the Atlantic start from British territory and land in British territory. 365. But do you suggest that you would take possession of these terminals and turn out the existing operatoi-s and put in your own ? — It is rather a question MIKDTES OF EVIDEXCE. 19 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Oversea Commvmications ; Post and Telegraph. for a naval or military witness than myself, as I explained in the statement I read out to-day ; it is more a matter for those Government seiTices charged with defence than the Post Office, but it could be done quite well. 360. On looking at the whole question from the broad point of view, which natiu-ally we have to consider, one naturally thinks of what might follow. Do the landing licences make any provision for action such as I suggest in a case of emergency ? — It does not depend on landing licences merely, but it is surely inherent in the fact that these stations are on British territoiy that if there is an emergency they could be occupied. 367. If we were in a difficidty with which the United States had nothing to do, and you were to take possession of all the cables, I am afraid that would be regarded as an act of war. It would be a coui'se anj'- how which would involve very serious consequences ? — I have no doubt. Agaia, I am afraid I must remind you this is rather outside my scope as a mere Post Office servant, but the fact that the cables are owned by Americans does not inteil'ere with the other fact that they begin and they end on English territory, and I should think it would be within our power to deal with them accordingly. 368. Assuming the United States had nothing to do with the quaiTcl which created this emergency, can you imagine they would calmly acquiesce in their communications with the rest of the world being paralysed hidefhiitely ? — I am afraid that is outside my scope. 369. I think, perhaps, you would admit that the consequences might be so serious that the 2O,O00Z. which the State-owned cable across the Atlantic would cost would be a mei'e flea-bite as compared with what might occur in another way ? — I imagine that you are leaving out of mind the possibility that the cables could be cut. A State-owned cable could be cut as well as another cable, and it does not take an ironclad to cut it. 370. That is a possibility, of course, but there would be 19 chances to 1 against the State-owned cable being cut, would there not ? — I do not see why. 371. At all events all I wanted to poiat out in my question was this, that there are very serious poten- tialities in the present circumstances, and that these would be partially at least — I do not say wholly — met by a State-owned cable ? — I could imagine that a cable landed on American tei-ritory, supposing we were involved in a quarrel with which America was not concerned, would be safer than if it were landed in English territory because the Power supposed to be at war with us would, I should think, hesitate before risking a violation of American neutrality by cutting their end of the cable, although they might cut ours. 372. Quite so ; but as a matter of fact the landing is in British territory, is it not ? — Yes. 373. And that difficulty could only be obviated by removing the terminal ? — Yes. 374. {Sir Rider Haggard.) Am I right i»i inferring from an answer you gave that you view the possibilities of wireless telegTaphy as being very great in the matter of competition with the cable telegrajihy H — One hesitates to speak positively, because we know so little of wireless telegraphy as j^et, but eveiything goes to show that the possibilities are very great. 375. So that it is possible, I presume, that the system of wireless telegraphy might entirely supersede the existing system ? — It is guessing so wildly to say anything of the kind that I hesitate to auswei', but the possibilities of wii-eless can hardl}' be over-stated I imagine. 376. Speaking as an ignorant layman on the matter, wu-eless has great advantages, has it not, in the matter that it cannot be cut ? — It cannot be cut. 377. Am I rightly informed in what I have heard, namely, that systems are being introduced by which the messages can be kept secret ? — One of the great discoveries yet to be made in wireless is the direction of the wave. If, for instance, instead of the wireless message being distributed all round the points of the compass, it could be confined within a certain section, we should have gone a long way. 378. Ai-e there not indications that that end is in the way of being attained ? — I am not a wii-eless scientific expert, and I cannot say, but I know that people are experimenting in that direction. The attention of everybody is turned upon it. 379. In the present state of the wu'eiess under- takings, does it or does it not make it a little rash to invest large sums of capital in the laying down of fresh submarine cables :- — One could hardly say; I think it is an additional argiunent against expierhneuting in the direction of a State-owned cable. 380. (Chairman.) There is only one fiu-ther question I have to ask to make the point quite clear ; you estimate that the cost of an Atlantic cable would be 20,000/. a year minus whatever traffic you obtained from the North American continent and Canada ;•' — Yes, the loss is 20,000/. 381. The loss is 20,000/. assuming you get no traffic whatever from Canada ? — Yes. 382. Now would you kindly read your second memorandum on the subject of mails ? — Yes. The following are the questions submitted by the Commission and the Memorandu7n in reply : — Mails. Qiiestions. (a) In regard to mail subsidies generally, on what basis is the amount of paynient determined, e.g., weight of mails conveyed, speed, regularity of sej^-ice, other postal facilities ? To what extent have considerations, other than the performance of postal work, such as Admiralty require- ments, option (jf pui-chase, non-alienation from British flag, &c., been taken into account in negotiating mail contracts p (if)) It is understood that the system of mail contiacts for a term of years at a fixed annual subsidy has hitherto been prefei-red to that of despatching the mails periodically by the fastest ship on the berth. The Commission would be glad to know whether the General Post Office lias any experience of the caniage of importaut mails by the fastest ship on the berth at the statutory rate of Ad. per article or at any other rate. It has been suggested to the Commission that the system of utilising the fastest boat offering is likely to have the result of developing healthy competition and therefore in the end of improving mail communicatioue more rapidly than if preferential treatment and a monopoly or quasi-monopoly is established. {c) It has further been suggested that a system of conveyance of mails by the fastest ship otfering would have special advantages in the case of Australia and New Zealand, as several non-subsidised Hues have vessels of a sea speed only slightly inferioi' to that of the mail steamers. Could figui'es be given showing the extent of the saving — (a) to H.M. Govei-nment, (6) to the Commonwealth and New Zealand Governments, if this course were adopted, and if the mails to and from Australasia wei-e cairied wholly by sea and not, as at present, partly overland !' (d) The contract between the Postmaster- General and the P. \ O. Co. dated August 7th, 1907, provides for termination on January Slst, 1915, if notice is given 24 months beforehand by either side. Has such notice been given yet, and, if not, is it in contemplation in the near future to enter into negotiations for a fresh contract ? In this connection the Commission notes that the House of Commons Committee on Steamship Subsidies, which reported in 1902, recommended that the iiual negotiations should be placed in the hands of a small permanent committee consisting of i-epresentatives of the Government Departments concerned and also of shipping and commerce. They would be interested to C 2 L'O DOMINhtNS ROVAL CtlilMlSSIOK 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edwabd Ceabb, C.b. [Oversea Communications -. Post and Telegraph. know wlietlier this recommendation has been carried out, and, if not, what reasons were thought to militate against it ? Memorandum from General Post Office in reply to the above queHions. In a postal conti-act the annual amoimt of payment for the conveyance of mails may be (i) fixed or (ii) based on a poundage rate — in which case the total payment will vary according to the weight of the mails conveyed — or (iii) based on a combination of (i) and (ii). In any case the amount of payment to be made under a new contract would generally be determined i-oughly by the amount which would have to be paid for the conveyance of the mails in the absence oi a contract with the Postmaster-General. This amount would be calculated in one of two ways — first, the Postmaster- General has the statutory' right to despatch mails to foreign countries generally at the rate of \d. per article of correspondence irrespective of the distance over which the mails are conveyed ; and the amount payable on this basis would furnish an estimate of the postal value of the eonti-act service. Secondly, under the tei-ms of the Universal Postal Convention evei-y country included in the Universal Postal Union has the right to despatch letter mails by services maintained by other countries included in the Postal Union in return for payment at fixed rates varying with the distance of the sea conveyam^e ; and the amount which would be payable in this way under Postal Union conditions would give a further estimate of the postal value of the sei-vice. The estimated value of the service for the conveyance of parcel mails would be added to its value for the conveyance of letter mails to ascertain its total value. The estimate is usually based on the assumption that •tcZ., Sd., and Is. are allotted to the sea sei-vice at the three steps of the parcel post scale, or on the Postal Union parcel rates, unless contract rates are available. The figui-e thus obtained, while furnishing a con- venient rough comparison, cannot, however, be taken as affording an adequate measiu-e of the fair price to be paid for any particular sei-vice. Within fairly wide limits the actual quantity of mails to be conveyed is a matter of relatively small importance to a conti-actor as compared with the obligation to maintain a regular service at fixed intei-vals throughout the year. In a service where the passenger and freight traffic fluctuates consideralily at different seasons and where the quantity of mails is comparatively small, it may be necessai-y, in order to secure a regular mail sen'ice, to pay a sum substantially in excess of the •• Postal Union value." Other factors which have to be taken into consideration are the speed and frequency of the serrice, the period of the contract, the extent of the company's responsibility for the mails, and so forth. Special circiunstances of this nature are always present in a more or less marked degree, and must generally be regarded as adding to the cost of the contract service. Besides pro^nding for the regular perfoi-mance of the senice at the desired inteiTals a contract usually contains provisions as regards — (1) speed ; (2) liability of company in cjtse of loss or damage of mails ; (3) the amount of the penalties to be exacted from the company in the event of non-perfoiin- ance or delay of the whole or part of the service on any occasion ; (4) the Postmaster-General's control over the sailings ; (.5) the expense of landing and embarkation of mails ; (6) the period of duration of the contract, and the length of notice of termination requii-ed ; (7) condition that no undue prefei-ence shall te shown to foreignei-s in the company's carrying business. Ftirther provisions may be made as regards — (8) sea-sorting accommodation ; (9) the Postmaster-General's power to delay sailings ; (10) Admiralty requirements ; (11) cold storage accommodation ; (12) conveyance of Government passengers. Due consideratitm has to be given to the require- ments of the Admiralty in the negotiation of an important mail contract. For example, the following mail ccmtracts contain Admiraltv clauses: — Company. Date of Contract. Nature of Clause. Peninsular & Orient al 1 908 Steam Navigation Company. Royal Mail Steam 1911 Packet Company (West Indian Ser- vice). Union - Castle Mail 1912 Steamship Com- - pany. I Cunard Steamship ! 1903 Company. i Option of purchase, Ac. Do. Do. Option of purchase, ic. and special conditions. One of the essential features of a satisfactoi-y mail service is regularity thi-oughout the year, so that the same day and time of despatch maj- be maintained. If the Postmaster-General's statutoi-y right to despatch •• ship-letter " mails were relied on for the provision of a mail service, there would be no guarantee of regularity. Also duiing the less busy seasons .of the year when the passenger traffic is small, the fastest steamers would he withdrawn, with the result that none but the slower steamers would te available lor the despatch of mails. Again, the shipping companies w(.iuld be able to choose their ov,-a itinerary, which would be arranged without regard to the advantages of the mail service, while considerable expense might Ije incun-ed by the Post Office in the transfer of the mails to or from the steamers at the times and places most convenient to the Department. Considerable trouble and consequent expense is being given at the present time by the fact that the mails for Canada under the new Canadian contract are sent, some from Glasgow, some fi-om Livei-pool, and some from Bristol, and that the sorting arrange- ments throughout the United Kingdom have to be altered according to the port of despatch. During the recent labour troubles all the important contract mail sennces were maintained with very little iiTegularity at times when most of the sendees in respect of which owners wtre under no contract obligation to provide regular sailings were disorganised. All attempt was made in 1877, in response to a public demand, to maintain the outward American mail service by the use of the fastest steamers avail- able, as was already the pi-actice of the United States Post Office in the case of the inward American mail. The experiment was. however, of short duration, as it gave rise to general dissatisfaction not only on the part of the steamship companies which owned the faster steamers and desired to retain the whole of the traffic imder the former conditions, but also on the part of the general pubHc, in whose opinion the service had deteriorated — as, indeed, it had. The direct mail service between the United King- dom and the West Indies was maintained for about two years from the 1st July 1905 on a ship-letter baais, !is a satisfactory tender for the sei-vice was not forth- coming. The result was most unsatisfactory ; the ships left on varying days, and the day of despatch was frequently altered at short notice. The Post Office was ultimately compelled by public opinion to enter into a contract for regular sailings. At the present time a weekly service to Jamaica is maintained on a ship-letter basis by Messrs. Elders and Fyffes' direct MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edwabd Cbabb, C.B. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. steamers in addition to the service via New York, while the mail service with the north of Brazil (Para and Maniios) ^s performed by Boqtli Line steamers imder the same conditions. Genei'ally speaking, the application of ship-letter rates is limited to eases where the vohime of traUic is not sufficient to justify a contract, as in the case of the routes for which correspondence must be specially addressed. The experience of the Post Office does not support the opinion that a departm-e from the contract system to the use of the fastest ships available would lead to any economy or to an increase in the efficiency of the mail services. Postal C(jntracts are not usually made for lung periods, and at the termination of a contract tenders for the service are ojjenly invited, the market price of the service thus being tested periodically and competition developed wherever effective competition is possible. Any slight acceleration which would be afforded at certain periods of the year by the employ- ment in all circumstances of the fastest ship available would l)e more than counterbalanced by the irregularity of the service and the alfsence of advantageous con- ditions which are ensured under a contract. It has been agreed that notice to determine the contract between the Postmaster-General and the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company shall not be given before the 31st January 1914, the earliest date of termination thus being the 31st January 1916. The conditions of the maintenance of the service after the latter date have not yet been determined. The suggestion made by the House of Commons Committee on Steamship Services in 1902 that a per- manent committee, consisting of representatives of the Admiralty, Board of Trade, Colonial Office, and Post Office and repre.sentatives of shipping and commerce, should be set up to consider all proposals involving the grant of subsidies to shipping com- panies, was not adopted because it was anticipated that the inclusion of representatives of the shipping companies in the committee would lead to difficulty when the committee was considering the negotiation of a contract with a shipping company. Even if the representatives of shipping and commerce were left out, it was felt that a single department was better able to caiTy on negotiations than a committee. Departments concerned are, of course, consulted by the Post Office, which is mainly concerned in the con- tract, and it is thought that the procedui-e works well and saves time. The annexed tables show the steamship companies pei-formiug the contract mail services to Australia via the Suez Canal, and several other typical British steam- ship companies carrying on trade with the Antipodes. There are, of course, many other casual traders from this country to Australian ports, but the steamers engaged are mostly "tramps" of slow speed. It will be observed that no other companv approaches in the matter of sjjeed that actually possessed by ships of the two mail contracting com- panies. The average sea speed i-equired for the performance of the mail contracts to Australia is i5- l(i knots an hour. In the case of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, the mails from London are of course sent overland to Brindisi and conveyed thence to Port Said by the express packets, where they are transhipped to the main line packet ; while in the alternate week, when the service is performed by the Orient Line, the mails are sent to Taranto and embarked there on the main line packet. On arriving in Australia the mails for Western Australia are disembarked at Fremantle. and those for South Australia, Victoria, New South Wales, Tasmania, New Zealand, and adjacent islands are carried on to Adelaide, where they are disembarked and forwarded to destination by train and steamer. The contract period of ti-ansit from Brindisi and from Taranto to Adelaide is 638 hours (26 days 14 hours). The service performed by the Messageries Mari- times Company imder contract with the French Post Office takes 34 days from Marseilles to Adelaide with calls at Port Said, Siaez, Aden, Bombay, Colombo, and Fremantle. The North German Lloyd despatches a packet every 28 days from Bremerhaven to Austraha calling at Antwerp, Southampton. Algiers. Genoa, Naples, Port Said, Suez, Aden, Colombo, and Fre- mantle. The voyage from Bremerhaven to Adelaide occupies 45 days, but the course of post from London via Naples would be 33 days. There are in addition services across the Pacific used by this office for the transmission of mails to New Zealand, viz., that performed by the " Canadian and Australasian Line," from Vancouver, and a service via San Francisco performed by the " Canadian and Australasian " Line in conjunction -n-ith the " Unifin Steamship Company " of New Zealand. Annexure. Length of Shiijping Company. Names of Packets. Tonnage. Speed. Ports of Call. Voyage from London. Knots. Days. Peninsular and Oriental Steam Maloja 12,431 18* London (Tilbury) — Navigation Company, under Medina 12,350 184 Gibraltar 4 contract with Imjjerial Post Morea - 10,890 18i Marseilles - 7 Office for mail service to Mantua 10,885 184 Port Said - 11 Australia. Malwa 10,883 18* Suez - 12 Macedonia - 10,512 18* Aden - 16 Marmora 10,509 184 Colombo 22 Mooltan 9,621 18| Fremantle - 32 Mongolia 9,505 184 Adelaide 36 Moldavia 9,500 184 Melboiu-ne - Sydney 38 41 Peninsular and Oriental Branch Ballarat 11,120 14 London (Albert _ Line to Australia via the Dock). Cape (late Blue Anchor Line, Beltana 11,120 14 Canary Island 6 Limited). Benalla 11.118 14 Table Bay - 21 Commonwealth - 6,616 14 Adelaide 40 Geelong 7,951 14 Melbourne - 45 Wilcannia - 4.953 13 Sydney •■>(» Orient Steam Navigation Com- Orama 12,927 18 London (Tilbury) pany, Limited, inider <'ontract Orontes 9.023 18 Gibraltar - " - 4 with Commonwealth Post Orsova 12,036 18 Toulon 6 Office for mail service to Oi-vieto 12,130 18 Naples 8 Europe. Osterley 12,129 18 Taranto f) Otranto 12,124 18 Port Said - 12 (; 3 •>2 DOMINIONS ROY.VL COMMISSIOX 12 November 1913.] Shipping Company Mr. Edward Cbabb. c.b. \_Over$ea Communications : Post and Telegraph. Length of Ports of Call. Voyage from London. Orient Steam Navigation Com- pany, Limited — cont. Otway Omrah Oplxir Aberdeen Line. Thompson, Qeo., & Co., Limited. Demosthenes Mai-athon Jliltiades Themistocles Moravian 11.223 7,827 7,814 11,231 4.573 15 15 15 15 14 Suez - Colombo Fremantle Adelaide Melbourne Sydney Brisbane Da vs. 13 22 32 36 38 41 45 London Plymouth - 1 Teneriffe H Cape ToTvn - 20 Melbourne - 4U Sydney 43 Brisbane 4t> Milbum Line and Anglo- Austra- Port Lincoln 7.243 13 Middlesbrough - _ lasian Steam Navigation Port Cui-tis - 4.710 12 Hull - — Company. Port Hunter 4.062 10 London — Port Phillip 4,060 10 Suez Canal - 13 approi. Port Augusta 4.063 10 Adelaide 50 „ Port Caroline 4,076 10 Melbovime - 55 ,. Port Chalmers 4.077 10 Sydney 60 .. Port Kembla 4,700 12 Port Macquarie - 7,236 13 Port Pirie - 4,068 10 Port Albany 9.000 13 • • Tyser Line and Colonial Line - Hawkes Bay 10,641 13 London Makarini 10.624 13 Suez Canal - 12 approx. Marere 6.443 12 Auckland 48 ., Mimiro 6.225 12 Wellington - 51 „ Muritai 7.280 12 Nerehana 6.533 12 London — Niwaru 6,444 12 Suez Canal - 12 approx. Whakarua - 6,534 12 Melbourne - Sydney 45 „ 50 „ Bethell, Gwyn & Co.. London Chartered ships - Variable About 10 London _ Line. 5,00u Suez Canal - 13* , to Melbourne - 49 10,000 Sydney Fremantle - Albany 54 42 45 Approximate Shipping Company. Names of Packets. Tonnage. Speed. Ports of Call. Length of Voyage from London. Knots. Days, New Zealand Shipping Company, Hurunui 8,901 14 London — under contract with Imperial Remuera 11,276 14 Teneriffe 6 Government for conveyance Rotorua 11.130 14 Cape Town - 21 of parcels to New Zealand Ruahine 10,758 14 Hobart 41 Kaikoura 6,998 13 Wellington - 46 Kaipara 7,392 13 Lyttelton 47 Opawa 7,230 13 Orari - 7,027 13 Otaki - 7,420 13 Rimutaka - 7,952 13 Rosscommon 7,381 13 Rnapehu 7,885 13 Tongariro - 8,073 13 Txirakina 8,349 13 Tyrone 6,664 13 Limerick 6,827 12 Paparoa - • - 7,749 12 > . Westmeath - 8,096 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 23 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edwaed Oeabb, c.b. [Oversea Communications ; Post and Telegraph. Approximate Shipping Company. Names of Packets. Tonnage. Speed. Ports of Call. Length of Voyage from England. Knots. Days. Shaw, SavUl, and Albion Com- Arawa 9,372 14 London pany, under contract with Tainui 9,957 14 Plymouth 1 Imperial Government for Kia Ora 6,558 13J Teneriffe 6 conveyance of parcels to New Mamari 6,689 134 Cape Town - 21 Zealand. Pakeha 10,481 134 Hobart 414 Rangatira - 10,118 134 Wellington - 47 Waimana 10,389 134 Matatua 6,488 13 Karamea 5,564 12 Kumara 6,034 12 Tokomaru - 6,238 12 Waiwera 6,237 12 White Star Line : — -" Runic - 12,482 13 Liverpool — Medic - 12,032 13 Cape Town - 20 Australian Passenger Service - Afric - Suevic 11,999 12,531 13 13 Albany Adelaide 35 40 Persic 12,042 13 Melbourne - 43 v> Cei-amic 18,600 134 Sydney 50 f Cufic - 8,249 12 Liverpool — Tropic 8,230 12 Adelaide 46 Australian Cargo Service Irishman Georgic 11,.585 10,077 12 13 Melbourne - Sydney 50 55 Bovic - 6,583 13 Brisbane 62 L Belgic 10,151 12 New Zealand Corinthic - 12,231 13 London _ Passenger Services in con- junction with Shaw, Savill. and Albion. y Ionic Athenic 12,232 12,234 13 13 Plymouth Teneriffe Cape Town - Hobart Wellington - 1 6 21 414 47 Lyttelton 48 Shipping Company. Names of Packets. Tonnage. Speed. Approximate Ports of CaU. Length of Voyage. Ocean Steam Ship Company A. Holt & Co. jEneas Anchises AntUochus - Ascanius 10,049 10,046 9,039 10,040 Knots. 14 14 14 14 Liverpool Canaries Cape Town - Melbourne - Sydney Days. 6 19 42 45 383. You mention the statutory rate at which mails should be conveyed : how does that rate compare with the ordinary rates on valuable freight ? Is it very much in excess of what is got for ordinary freight ? — We have not any very definite information about the rates for valuable freight : they are probably a matter of bargaining between shippers aud consignors, but I should think the statutory rate would be equivalent to a high rate for freight. 384. What does it work out at per ton P— We make it work out at 224/. per ton for letters and post cards. 385. What does the Postal Union rate for sea distances over 50 miles work out at ? — It works out at over 300?. per ton. 386. So that these rates constitute a very valuable prize if given to the fastest ship on the berth ? — Yes. 387. Therefore competition for obtaining a portion of the postal ti-affic wotild be a ilistiuct stimulus to outside lines to furnish fast regular sailings ? — Lines outside the present mail contractors, if they are going to compete and if they are to buUd ships at all comparable to those run by the Peninsular and Oriental and by the Orient (I mean any of the faster ships), would have to build a new fleet ; otherwise the ships which are now conveying the mails are stUI the fastest. 388. They would have to build a new fleet if they intended to compete for the postal contract ."• — Yes. 389. But they would only have to build new vessels if they intended to come in occasionally ? — They would have to build one or two. and even that would be a very expensive matter if they wei-e buUding them simply to capture a somewhat small proportion of the mail. 390. Under the present arrangement, that induce- ment to build fast vessels does not exist ? — I presume you are thinking more particularly of the Peninsular and Oriental Service. If any shipping company wishes to tender for the Eastern Service, supposing that the Eastern Service remains under anything like existing conditions, that company will have to contemplate the possibility of being called upon to build a new tieet between the present time and the time when the contract is decided. 391. And that would involve the construction of how many vessels ? — I should not like to say. The P. & O. have ten vessels of 18i knots — I daresay less would do — the Orient have seven vessels of 18 kuots. U 4 24 I'OMINIONS KOVAI. COMMISSION' 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edwaed Cradi). C.B. lOversea Commvnicatimi* ; Post and Telegraph. 392. And in effect is the competition for a share in the subsidy limited to companies who either have or ai-e prepared to build a large fleet of that kind ? — It appeai-s to be limited to companies that can in am- way meet the requirements of the contract. You have used the inhal>itauts of India and Austi-alia to have then- mails delivered at a certain speed and with a certain regularity, and it would undoubtedly be felt very severely if we entered into a contract which did an\-tl)iug to deprive them of those facilities. 393. The point I am upon now is the limited com- petition which exists when the question arises of a renewal of the subsidy contract ; how much i-eal com- petition exists ? — It is very restricted indeed as any tender for a difficult service of a very high class must be i-esti-icted. I think it would be the same in the engineering world : for instance, if you wanted tenders for a fresh Assouan dam there would not be very many firms which would l>e capable of offering for it. 394. Then assuming that the contractors do not come up to the requii-ements you think reasonable. what recourse have you ? — Tou mean if they do not tender ? 39.5. If they do not tender either with conditions you think adequate, or for prices you think reasonable ? — It becomes a sheer matter of bargaining, I am afi-aid. 396. And if you do not come to terms, what mean.s have you of applying pressiu-e ? — It is very difficult to give a satisfactory answer ; we must do the best we can. 397. You are somewhat powerless, are you not ? — We are not in a goi^d position in that case, of course : if the tenders can only be taken up by vei-y few firms, naturally you are not in as good a position as if you had a very large competition. 398. The view has been put fonvard. (I will put it to you briefly) that these postal contracts give a quasi monopoly for the cari-iage of the maQs ? — The quasi monopoly in such a case exists almost by itself, and the Post Office has very little option but to go to the monopolist. 399. Then you would agree with this : that the effect of the existence of this cjuasi-monopoly is to discoui-age outside competitors from building fast vessels which might, were thtre uo monopoly, have a shai-e of the postal cake ? — I think it is good evidence if the others do not compete for the mails, that we have made a reasonably good bargain. Otherwise if the P. and O. were profiting so very largely under the contract, it would \» worth somelx>dy's wliile to build and go into competition with them. 400. But you have said the amount of capital requii-ed is vei-y large ? — It is veiy large. 401. And therefore the competition is limited to a veiy few groups ? — Yes. 402. Now with regard to the cost of the Overland Mail, sending the mails across Europe to Brindisi. we have had. of coui-se. to consiiler the merits of the alternative routes by the Cape and otherwise, and I should like to have your view regarding the advantages of Brindisi, and also to know what the additional cost of Brindisi is, and I include Tai-auto ? — The additional cost is about 00,000Z. paid to France, and about 40.000/. to Italy really for the mail service — a special train — but the system of payment is based on the Postal Union plan, a charge per kilogramme on letters and parcels respectively, and it varies, 403. So that in fact having to send mails by Brindisi and Taranto costs you 100,000/. per year more than those same mails would do if sent by the sea route ? — I could not estimate it exactly : the cost is very much heavier, if I might be permitted to leave it there. On the other hand you get the increased speed. 404. You get a gain of what ? — Two or three days. 405. I think you have siven us figures sho^vulg that if the mails at present carried by the Suez route to and from Australasia were conveyed wholly by sea at ship- ping rates, the saving woidd be approximately 165.000/. year !' — Approximately. 406. And that would be increased to 200.000/. a year if ail the mails to and from Australasia were carried in this manner ? — Yes. 407. Are those coiTect ?^Yes. those figures are approximately correct. 1 have not much confidence in them; they are difficult to get at the present time. 408. Have any alternative routes for the present Brindisi and Suez routes been considered by the Post Office for the carnage o{ mails to and from Austral- asia y — We considered other ports : we considered Marseilles, and Reggio was suggested once ; we con- sidered sending them through Switzerland and we considered Salouica, and none of them were held to be as good as Brindisi. 409. Do you see the probal>ility iu the near future of any alternative route being equally good or prefer- able to that ? — No ; one can hardly say what will happen at Salouica, but to send the mails to Salonica would be sending them across a much larger number of countries, and each country would have to be paid, so that the expense would be very much higher. 410. The objections to Brindisi would be inci-eased in the case of Salonica. comparing both roiites to the all- sea route where the mails would be caiTied in British vessels ? — Yes. 411. Comparing that rout« with the possibilities of the Cape route to Austi-alia. what would you say ?• — The Cape route is much longer and you have not ships of the requisite speed i-unning on the Cape route. 412. Have you considered at all the possibility of creating a Cape-Austi'alasia route as an alternative to the present Suez route ? — A small amount of parcel load is sent by the Cape at present, but talking of the letter mails, we think it would be impossible. 413. Why do you think it would be impossible ^ — Because it is so much longer and because you have not the vessels. 414. Are you quite correct iu saying it is much longer ? — It is some hundreds of miles longer. 415. Assuming the possiliility of covering the distance in approximately the sam>^ time, do you con- sider an all-ocean route of that chai-a^ter has large advantages over the trans-Europe or trons-Mediter- i-anean route or not ? — I doubt whether it has ; by hanng a trans-European or trans- Asiatic route you get the advantage of a service which can be used for the Indian mails as well as for the other. 416. In the other case you get, of course, the advan- tage of the African mails? — Yes. 417. In the one case you have India and iu the other case you have Africa ? — Yes. 418. One of the clauses in one of your eonti-acts which you mention. Article 7 on page 6, of the P. and 0. contract, has the condition that no undue preference shall be shown to foreigners in the com- pany's carrying business .'--Yes. 419. How do you enforce or hnw can you enforce that ? — K we had a complaint and the complaint was substantiated, and the company refused to alter their procedure, they would fall under that clause which enablr-s the Postmaster-General in case of any notable breach of the contract to determine the contract at once. 420. Di> you place any condition on the mail com- panies which can-y your mails aliout joining or not joining shipping conferences .'*■ — No. 421. That nas never been included iu any of the contracts ? — Not that I am aware of. 422. {Mr. CampbeU.) Taking the whole of the Australian business into account, would yuu say that the business pays the department ? — -I do not think we made a bad bargain. 423. What I mean is ; taking the fact into considera- tion that you pay a subsidy to the P. and O. Company, is your business with Australia remunerative ? Is there or is there not a loss on the Australian business to the postal department ? — It may be taken that the Australian ser\-ice is not remunerative. In the case of most of the foreign letter services the question is simply how much of the loss will you bear, and when you come to the Colonies which are served by the penny post it is all loss. 424. The postal department is not governed by the same policy iu respect of postal services as it is in MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2? 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Ouersea Communications -. Post and Telegraph. respect of telegraphic services, that is to say it is pre- pared to give a subsidy for cheaper and quicker service in respect of the mails, whereas the attitude in regard to telegraphic service is different ? — Speed is a con- dition, and a valuable condition, but what we pay for in giving subsidies to the mail companies is regularity. 425. Do you get that regularity H — Certainly. 42ti. Is there any regularity in the delivery of Australian mails in England ? Are the mails delivered on the same day in each week ? — Yes, they come in pi-actically to time ; you can calculate upon them almost as you can on a train. 427. What is the reason that in some weeks the Australian mail is delivered on Saturday, sometimes on Friday, and sometimes on a Monday ? — If it is the P. and O. mail it is pr()bably because sometimes the P. and O. boats are in advance of their contract time. 428. Is that frequent — that boats are in advance of the contract time ? — It is fairly frequent, I think. 429. As a matter of fact the departure of mails from Australia by the different liues is not synchronous, is it ; the boats do not start on the same day from Australia, but the P. and 0. start on one day of the week, and the Orient on another? — What I mean is that you tie down these boats to i-un the distance within a certain specified time, and they do it. If you had no contract the companies could alter theii' itinerary ; they could take off their fastest boats, and they would do it. For instance, take another service, across the Atlantic. For part of the year you would never have the fastest boats rumiing at all. It is the same with the Royal Mail. When you came to put your mails on board you might be tohl. " We intended " to start to-day, but we have not got our cargo in yet, ' " and we shall not be able to start till to-morrow " morning." I doubt if the business world would tolerate it. 430. Speaking about I'outes, regularity and speed, I suppose, would be the main things, as you have put the case here, in the way of argument for any particular route ? — Regularity and speed, and certain other considerations of which I read you out a catalogue. 431. Taking those desiderata into consideration, has the Post Office ever looked into the possibilities of a mail route across Siberia and getting to Australia that way for the Australian mails ? — No, the Siberian route does very well for stuff going as far south as Shanghai, but I do not know that we ever considered it for anything farther. 432. But the Post Office use the Trans-Siberian route for Chinese and Japanese mails ? — Yes, the development of that route, of course, may be great in fature. 433. Does the service prove costly on that route ? — It is a new service to some extent, and their lines are not what they will be in the future ; in some places they liave still got single lines cind their rolling stock will also be improved in the future. 434. There is rapid duplication going on upon that line is there not ? — So I understand. 435. What is the time of delivery of mails from London to, say, Japan — Yokohama ? — Yokohama l)y Siberia, 18 days ; niri Vancouver, 26 days ; and via Suez, 36 days. 436. Eighteen days to Yokohama from London ? — Yes. 137. How does the American Post Office carry the bulk of its mails ? — So much per voyage in some cases. I think. 438. The system of subsidising lines is hardly known there, is it ? — No, they are not quit« in the same position as we are. The eastward-going American mail is concentred at New York ; the westward mails of this country go from Glasgow, from Liverpool, and from Southampton, and it is easier foi- America, supposing she wished to do it, to take the fastest ship on the berth than it would be for us, as they have them all at one place. We broke down badly when we tried to work the service on a statutory payment in the seventies and eighties. 439. The American inward service is done entirely c: 20s;!0 on the payment system, is it not ? — Except in the case of the Ciinard. 440. Is there any great complaint over the American inward service about irregularity ? — No, not that I know 441. Then they manage to give a satisfactory service on the payment system ? — Yes. 442. The West Indian mail is carried by Elders and Fyifes' boats is it not ?— Part of it. 443. Elders and Fyffes" boatsare really an American- controlled institution, are they not? — I do not know how they are controlled. 444. {Sir Bider Haggard.) Has the alternative of ocean transit throughout ever really been seriously considered ?• — I cannot say it has for carrying letters. 445. Speaking generally it would seem to present some advantages, would it not ; for instance, is it not an advantage that the mails of this country should pass over the high seas and not over foreign countries ? — I cannot see very much advantage. 446. Is not a state of affairs conceivable when it would not be alt^igether desirable to send your mails through foreign countries ? — Government tiuffic is not carried by ordinary mails. 447. Letters have a bodily presence on foreign teiTitory, have they not ? — Yes. 448. Is it not conceivable that that might not be desirable ? — I can imagine it under certain circum- stances. 449. Is it not extrepely expensive? — It is expensive. 450. Would not the same amount of money which is involved in sending those letters across sevei-al foreign countries tt) a foreign port provide a service viii the Cape, in much the same time — that is by quickening up the boat a little ? — I should doubt it. 451. As a matter of fact would not the increase of a knot an hour or so equalise the whole thing ? — No, I do not think it would ; at present your boats running to the Cape 452. I am not talking of the existing boats, but I am supposing that a fleet of boats of a different character is built ? — You would have to run at an avei-age speed of over 16 knots an liom% and at present the boats going round the Cape are doing an average speed of 13. 453. I know, but supposing thei-e were ships of the same average speed as on the other route ? — -I think it wovild form a subject for consideration then. 454. I want to put what I have in my own mind to you as an expert : Again, would not the fact that there would be only one stoppage at the Cape have an impor- tant bearing in the relative advantages of these routes ? — You would have an uninteiTupted course for the remainder of the time. 455. One call at the Cape, is it not ? — Yes, and perhaps one at Natal. 456. Not necessarily ? — Not necessarilj', leaving out the coaling. - ■ -i 457. Because the mails could be taken by the rail- ways t:> Natal?— Yes. 458. Is not that an enoi-mous advantage whea it is borne in mind that the Cape is a British possession ? — You are not providing for so much mail matter by that route. 459. You would have all the African mail matter, would you not ? — You would have the African mail matter, but you would not have the Indian and you would not have the foreign stuff which boats command on the P. and O. route the other way. 460. There would be in the beginning at any rate some diminution in the amount of mails carried ? — That is what I meant. 461. I miderstand that, but what I want to put to you is this : looking at the great advantage of having a route dominated entirely by the Imperial power calling at an Imperial port, and going straight across the sea to the Imperial possessions beyond the seas, I want to put it to you whether those advantages do not coimter- halance the advantage of, perhaps, a little extra quick- ness rid foreign countries and via the narrow Suez Canal ? — No doubt there is force in what you say. 462. I do not think I need can-y that anv further, and I have only one further question. I think you mentioned that the letters cost 300Z. a ton ?— Yes. D 26 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 12 November 1913.J Mr. Edwakd Cbabb, c.b. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. 463. Does that mean that for each individual ton the country pays 300?. ? — Yes. 46-i. That is an enonnous amount, is it uot, compared to what is paid for any other articles ? — For freight, yes, but you do not treat yom- letters as you treat ordinary freight. The comparison is not a fair one. Tou are not content to have your mail treated as if it were freight, valuable or othei-«'ise. 465. That is very dear, is it not ? — It is dear. 466. With reference to what the Chairman put to you, you talk of getting tenders for mails, l)ut practically you are in the hands of a monopoly, are you uot ? — We are dealing with a very restricted competition. 467. I will call it a restricted competition. — But I do not know that the resources of civili»ation are exhausted if that competition fails us. 468. Say there are three line.s which could tender, does that prevent the three lines making a little agree- ment among themselves and saying, •' We will none of " us quote a lower price than the other " ? — Then we should be in difficulties, Imt I think we should find a way out. 469. Is it a case of faith or hope ? — It is anticipa- tion based on experience. 470. {Mr. Bnwring.) Just one or two questions. Would it not seem to you that if the Canal dues could be saved and that money put into coals, that is extra speed, something might be gained by going round the Cape ? — The Canal dues do not affect us directly for the purposes of this discussion. The P. and O. Company offer their services for so much, and no doubt they take the Canal dues into consideration just as they take all the other circumstances. 471. That is a big consideration, is it not, on that route — or one of the big considerations ? — Tes. 472. Possibly several thousands of pounds a trip .' —Yes. 473. In going roimd by the Cape, of course these dues would be saved? — You would save dues. You would have to increase the speed of your ship. 474. Would not that saving of the Canal dues go a long way towards increasing the speed of the ships ? — I hesitate to prophesy. At the higher rates of speed an increase of a knot raises the cost of working your ship quite out of proportion to the effect of an increase of a knot at the lower rates of speed. 47.5. True, but it would be helpful any way?— It would be helpful. 476. By the present method through Suez, do you derive qvdte a revenue from the foreign countries — from Fi-anco and Italy ? — Yes. 477. Do they send many of their letters by the British subsidised boats P — Yes. 478. How do they pay ? — They pay the Postal Union rates. 479. And it works out at about 224Z. a ton? — I had some figures, but I have not brought them with me. I can say, however, that the foreign countries' contribution is going up. 480. Does the amount of the postage in or about cover the cost of transit by steamer, that is to say, does a penny cover the cost of transporting the letter ? — To Australia? By no means or anything like. The answer to a statement which begins by saying, "A •• letter can be sent to Sydney for a penny ; why, " therefore, should not you do something else com- " parable with inland postage,'" is that a letter cannot be sent to Sydney for a penny ; we charge a penny eand pay out more. 481. About how much more ? — The loss on the penny postage is running up to over 200,000/. a year, and if you add the penny jiostage to the United States of An^erica, a good deal more. 482. Have you ever worked out how much that comes to for each letter? — I have not got the figure. 483. You coidd not tell me. if a penny does not pay, what would pay ? — I will give you a memorandum \ipon it if you like.* * The witness subsequently supplied the following informa- tion:— "We es imate th.it thi-, cost of sending; a letter to " Au'itralia and that of dwilins; with the reply in this country " amounts to over i-/. per ounce 7-;xte. The lowest practical '• ainmut m British currency which would be ivniuuerative " is. t eref ire. 2,S'/." 484. Thank you ; it would be interesting to know if the penny does not pay, what wotild be the right amount ? — Are you thinking of any particular place, Australia for instance ? 485. I was thinking of Australia at the moment. — Very good. 486. It has been contended that on account of the Suez Canal di-aught, its width and one thing and another you cannot send larger boats that way, and lo get speed you must have size. That argument does uot seem to be borne otit altogether by the Atlantic experience, does it ? — I do not quite catch the point. 487. I think it has been contended that one reason why 3'ou have not got a greater speed on the Australian and New Zealand route is because the Suez Canal cannot put tlrrough larger boats than are at present engaged in it, say, 12,000 tons ? — Yes. 488. And because you cannot make your boats larger you cannot increase the speed ? — Yes. 489. That does not seem to be borne out by the Atlantic experience ? — The Atlantic boats are very much larger than 12.000 tons. 490. That is true, but in 1890 you appear to have had Atlantic boats of 8,000 tons running regularly at 20 knots ? — I cannot comment tipon it, because I do not remember ; I take it from you, but I have no doubt that the speed of the vessels on the P. and O. line could be iucreased, but I do not know. 491. It seems <'irrious that on the Atlantic so far back as 1889 anyway the mails were earned across the Atlantic at 20 knots, and to-day they are only carried to Australia at 15 knots ? — -The Atlantic service with the racing boats is a passenger service with veiy little cargo. The P. and O. is a cargo service as well as a passenger service. The Olympic," at present the biggest of the Transatlantic boats, carries, perhaps, about 500 tons of cargo that is not passengers' luggage. 492. That is perfectly true, but in speeding up the boats to the East the chances are that the passenger trade would be worked up in the same way as the Atlantic trade has been worked up, and that there would not be the necessity possibly when that was done to carry anything more than passengers and mails and very valuable cargo. It seems reasonable that the same influence wotdd have the same end. — May I ask what it is you suggest in that connection in regai-d to the mail contract? 493. What is running in my mind is this, that it seems to me to be more or less outrageous that mails and passengers should be carried to Australia in these modern days at 15 knots when they can go at 20 knots across the Atlantic? — Is there not something in this — in America there is an Anglo-Saxon population of 100.000,000 within comparatively easy reach of these islands, and you have an enormotis passenger traffic, and people who can and will pay any amount of money, and pay for speed. In Atistraiia there is a a similar popula- tion, not of 100,000,000, but of 7 or 8 millions, and there is uot the same pressure on the companies to supply fast boats. 494. {Sir Bider Haggard.) It is 54 millions excluding New Zealand. I think ?— I thought it was 7.000,000. 495. {Mr. Bowriiig.) It is 5i millions. — That makes a greater dift'erence. 496. But there is such a difference in the speed ; Canada can get a boat nmning at 18 or 19 knots and Australia gets them nmning hardly 15, — Btit the distance is enormously longer. 497. And they only get to 15 knots at the enormous outlay of 360,000/. a year. — If you are talking of 19-knot Canadian boats you mtist talk of IS.j-knot P. and O. boats ; you are talking in the one case of the maximum speed and in the other the average effective speed in running. No captain would run his boat at its maximum speed the whole way from here to Australia, or he would have to dry dock her when he gf>t her to Australia. 498. I do not think that follows. — In any case the Post Office cotild not make their bargain with him. If 18^ knots were the maximum speed of the boat, we could uot make a bargain with him that he was to take the mails at 18.j knots, because he would have no margin. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 57 — , — ,-„».»-. 12 NoDember 1913.] Mr. Edward Crabb, c.b. [Oversea Communicatimis i Post and Telegraph. 499. Again, out to Australia there are unsubsidised boats at about 13 to 14 knots ? — 13 knots the best of them. •500. For the extra two knots they pay this vei-y large sum of 360,0O0Z. a year.. — You have not got your 13-knot boats all in one company, and the additional two knots is a considerable addition — two knots on 13. 501. I wonder what would happen — have you any idea — if you eoiild add the saving of the Canal dues to that 360,000?. a year and offer it to some company in the way of a subsidy ? — I do not think the Post Office would stand back if it got any reasonable offer from anybody to put on a service cheaper and better than is done now. We should not pass the thing without con- sideration. 502. It has never been brought to the notice of the Post Office officials, I suppose ? — No, we have not had an offer to run round the Cape. 503. In fact the Cape has never been considered? — Not for letters. 504. {Mr. Gariiett.) I think your contract with the Post Office contractors — the P. and O. Company — provides that within certain limits that company is responsible for losses .■' — Yes. 505. In jiractice are there many claims ? — No ; I have some figures here. From 1906 to 1910, losses due to shipwi-eck, nil ; losses due to other causes, nil ; 1911, losses due to shipwreck, nil ; losses due to other causes, SI.; 1912, losses due to shipwreck, « z7 ; losses due to other causes, 11. ; 1913, losses due to shipwreck, 2,975L ; losses due to other causes, 11. The 2,975?. was wholly in respect of the mails lost in the " Oceana." 506. Are there any claims against the company at all for damage through transhipment of mails ? — The losses due to other causes are mainly due to damage in transhipment. 507. What you have read out includes all payments ? —Yes. 508. So that the amount of the subsidy is not materially increased by any compensation the company has to pay on these heads ? — It would not foim an im- portant item. 509. Have you any figures showing any comparison between the P. and O. and the Union-Castle Company ? Does their contract involve the same liabilities y— The present South African one does, but it has only been on since 1912, so that we cannot form any comparison yet. The previous contract did not contain such a clause. 510. Supposing the insurance clause did not exist, what would be the liability of the shipping companies ? —There is rather a difficult point of law there on which the courts have not authoritatively decided. The Post- master-General is advised that where the mails were cairied under special contract under statute the shipping company would not be strictly liable as common can-iers, but they would be held responsible for loss or damage caused by their negligence and that of their servants subject to the statutory limitation of liability under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894 (that is a consolidating Act, I think) to HI. per ton for each ton of the ship's registered tonnage in respect of loss or damage to goods. The amoiuit which would l)e recovered in that way would be insigniticaut compared to what we do recover now. 511. That would be your remedy ? — That is the remedy so far as we know it, but there is no very definite decision made by the courts u^^on that point yet. 512. (Mr. Tatlow.) The contract with the P. and 0. will terminate in 1916 ? — Yes. 513. And I presume that if the maUs continued to be can-ied by that route, under the new contract an accession of speed is contemplated ? — 1 can hardly say on what lines we shall negotiate yet ; we have scarcely sketched it ovit. Of coui-se an acceleration of speed would be desirable if we could get it on reasonable terms. 514. What acceleration would be possible with their present fleet of steamers the maximum of which is put down at 18 knots ? — I cannot say that. 515. Whatever it was the increased speed would mean increased subsidy, would it not? — Normally, increased speed is a thing which you pay for, but many conditions come in in negotiating a contract. If there are other advantages to be given we might get the increased speed for nothing. 516. Are mail contracts such as these advertised ?— Yes, they are put up for tender. 517. Has the " All-Bed " i-oute viii Canada and Vancouver been seriously considered in place of the Sue? route for Australia ? — We use it now in a way, but that would be an alternative route ; that would not be a substitute for it, I think. 518. But as a mail i-oute ? Was not it proi)osed some years ago to the Post Office that there should be quick steamers placed on the Pacific and the Atlantic, and was there not a definite proposal that the route should be through Ii-eland ? — As an ordinary matter of Post Office dealing we should send the mails by the most advantageous way. 519. Is not that route capable of being made the quickest route seeing the large amount of land transit as against sea ? — That is in its favour. 520. Largely in its favour for mails ? — Largely in favom-. You might have a much larger proportion of land transit for the Eastern route at some time, not in the near future perhaps, when the Bagdad railway is working. 521. {Mr. Lorimer.) With respect to Australiaji mails, why is it that you allow a margin of from 3 to 85 knots per hour between the contract sea-speed and the full speed of the ship ? You give us, with regard to the whole of the P. and O. Company's steamers, their speed at 18^ knots and their contract sea-speed is 15 • 16 ? — They cannot use the maximum speed over the whole of the route ; it would not be possible. They i-un at more than 15 ■ 16 knots in certain portions of the route, between here and Colombo the average speed is about 16'1 ; then, besides, there must be a margin to meet unfavotu-able weather — all kinds of sea contingencies. 622. You do allow for that; you give them an extra day in the monsoon weather ? — We give them an extra day for very special conditions, the regular monsoon, but there are other conditions which he cannot so easily foresee. He knows he is to meet the monsoon. 523. You see we have all had recent experience of Australian madships and we never under any circum- stances approached 184 knots even if the ships had to make up time for the prolonged and tiresome delay at Colombo and Aden. I do not think under any circum- stances did any of these boats ever exceed 18 knots ? — That is very probable. 524. Now I can quite understand that it would involve a very much heavier load of coal to be can-ied, say, between Colombo and Fremantle, than they take just now if they were to exceed 15 knots ; but still, the possibility of making up some of the time that is lost in waiting at Colombo and Aden appears to be disre- garded ? — When the P. and O. tendered for the contract they would take iuto consideration what sea speed would be necessary and what margin of speed would be necessary to enable them to do the journey within the specified time. 525. But when you have got ships which profess to run 18 TV knots it seems odd that you should give them no less time than you give to slower ones .' — I do not know that they profess to run ISj knots the whole way ; they profess that that is their maximum speed, and the conti-act binds them £0 do the distance within a certain time and they do it. The figui'es of their speed do not matter very much. 526. We had more than once to slow down in order not to be iu too soon ? — -Yes, the P. and O. boats run better than their contract very frequently. 527. But they slowed down, ;uid in coming home we went iuto Malta and that made no difference. Is it not possible (I suppose you have discussed it with the P. and O. Comijany) to obviate that dreadful delay at Colombo ? — We might think of that when the new contract is entered into. 528. I have only one other question : has the Post Office arranged for the carriage of over-sea mails in any part of the world by steamships burning oil ? — No, not as a special condition. 529. Do you not think you ha,ve them carried by D 2 28 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 12 November 1913.] Mr. EnwABD Ceabb, c.b. [Oversea Communicationt : Post and Telegraph. oil vessels anywhere ? — Not by any that I can think of novr. .530. Ton woxild probably get better speed in that way over a long distance ? — I do not know that we should concern ourselves about the means liy ■which the ship was driven as long as we had the speed we were asking for. 531. But if you saw your way to reduce tliat time by three or fom- days, wi)uld you not avail yourselves of the opportimity ?— Certainly, we -wiint the speed to be as great as possible. 532. I point out that there does seem to ordinaiy passengers like ourselves some means of reducing time by a better arrangement of the connections at Colombo, and also you might consider whether you cannot get better speed by running (.)il-biu'ning ships. — I see. 533. (Sir Alfred Bafeuuni.) 1 want to a?k you a question about clause 33 of the P. and 0. contract under which the company are bound not to give any undue preference in their general caiTviilg business to the disadvantage of British shipowners ; how do yo\i enforce that ? — We have no way of enforcing it except that if a complaint was made and justified to us and we went to the P. and O. Company and asked them to alter their procedure and they refused, we could treat that as a breach of the contract justifying the Postmaster-General in determming the contract at once. 534. But you do not take any steps yourselves to see that that is carried out ? — No. 535. Supposing there is a lower rate of freight, say. for German goods which come to London and are traushii)ped there — cases we heard of in New Zealand ? — We do not uispect with a view to seeing whether that does happen or not ; we ti-ust to complaints being made. 536. Have you had complaints made ? — No. 537. Do you tliink the commercial public would be awai-e that the complaints could be made to you ? — The commercial public I presume are aware that there is a P. and O. contract and that tliat contains a good many other things than Post Office clauses; it contains a Board of Trade clause and it contains an Admiralty clause. 53S. Do you happen to know whether there is a similar clause in the contract of the New Zealand Shipping Company and Shaw, Savill, and Albion Com- pany ? — No, the stuff is carried by those lines under an an-angement come to by means of letters, and there is no contract. 539. It would not be possible to put in such a clause? — Yes, if the traffic became sufficiently im- portant to make a contract with them I suppose the clause wovdd be introduced. 540. I suppose the complaint would come before you through the Board of Trade 'f — Veiy hkely ; if the complaint were made to the Board of Trade and the Board of Trade considered the complaint justified they might remind us that the matter fell under such and such a clause in the P. and O. contract. 5-41. I notice yoit speak of negotiation; you say you consult the Admiralty, the Board of Trade, and so on ? — -Yes. 542. Do you consult them frequently ? — Yes. 543. At different stages of the negotiations ?— Yes. 544. They are treated almost as pai-tners whom you have to satisfy more or less ? — Yes. I imagine we are the principal partners, if there is a question of who has the most interest in the contract, but we consult them at every stage, and if either depart- ment wants anythmg, we do it. 545. So that, although they are not parties to the contract, they know what is going on at every stage ? —Yes. 546. For that reason, you do not see any advan- tage in having the committee that has been proposed ? — I think it would be disadvantageous ; if you have a committee of that sort where there is one very pre- dominant interest, and othei-wise only slight interests, you are wasting a number of people's time by calling them all together constantly to consider things in which they are not directly concerned, always provided that the department managing the affair takes particular cai-e to see that the interests of the other partners are not neglected, and I think we can claim that. 547. I think you said that the preference clause was put in in accordance with the suggestions of the Board of Trade ?— Yes. 548. But they do not see that it is enforced; they wait for complaint ? — I do not know what action they take, but I presume they wait for complaint. We take no action. 549. In the new contract will there be some differ- ence owing to the new Shipping Act in Australia — the new legislation which has to do, you know, with wages and also with colour in the question of '-seamen ? — I cannot tell ; we shall put out our tenders for a certain service to be performed and the shipping comjianies will tender, if they see fit, certain terms on whicli they will pcrt'orm that service. If new ./Australian legislation is making things more difficult for them I think it will appear in the demands for money. 550. You are afraid you would have to foot the bill ? — That or something like it. 551. It has not come to your knowledge yet, the effect of this legislation ? — No, because we are not yet really in negotiation for the conti-act. 552. It has been assented to [ understand ? — So I learned this morning. 553. In some ways it will add to the cost of work- ing that service will it not ? — Yes, it is likely to add to the cost of working the service and likely to lead to a loss of profit to the company. 554. If there is an increase in what they will carry your mails for it would be an additional reason for your taking into consideration this Cape route, would it not ? — I imagine that the Cape lines will also fall under the same law, will they not '•' 555. You might have companies which did not xise t'oloured labour ? — Yes. 556. It is the P. and O. Company which specially falls under this legislation ? — Yes, under the coloui-ed laljour clause. The Orient agreed not to use coloured labour and the price of the contract went up. 557. There is also the wage question which would come in ? — Yes, two or. three things come in — the coloured labom-, the wages question, and the coasting law. They all tend to send up the price of the contract. Any additional difficulty put before the shipping com- pany will have to be paid for in some form or another by the Government. 55S. (Sir Eider Hatigard.) With reference to the foi-mer questions I put, is it not a fact that the "VATiite Star Line at the present moment does the passage between Cape Town and Australia at a greater speed than the mail steamers do between Colombo and Australia ? — I have the figures and I think they are right. The speed of the White Star Line I have down hero as 13.V knots for their fastest boat. 40 days to Adelaide from Liverpool. 559. Thou it is not the fact that it does the passage at a quicker rate between the Cape and Australia than is done by the mail steamers between Colombo and Australia ^ — No, on my interpretation of these figures the 131 knots put down here is their maximum speed, and would probably not be represented in actual running by more than 12 L-nots, but it is easily calculated by putting the distance against the time taken. There is one example — the Aberdeen Line ships' speed is put down at 15 knots. The voyage from London to Cape Town is performed by then- ships in 19A days. The distance according to their own showing is 6.181 miles, and their actual sea speed is about 13 knots. 560. Tlien y<nn- answer to my previous question is that what I have been informed was the case is not si) ? — I think not. 561. The question has been raised about the coal, the difficulty of coaling for the long sea stretch between the Cape and Australia; would not that be got over by a very little increase of di-aught in the MINDTES OF EVIDENCE. 29 12 November 1913.] Mr. Edward Cbabb, c.b. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. steamers ?— That is rather a question for a nautical expert than myself. 562. It is a question you cannot answer ? — -I cannot answer that satisfactorily. 5'63. There is one more question I wjiild like to put in this way : in view of the extreme importance of all this matter of mail communications, could not any i>f the difficulties which have been suggested as against the Cape route be overcome if the .steamers used are State-owned ? — That raises a very large question indeed. There seems to be no more reason for starting State-owned mail boats round the Cape than on the very important service between England and North America. Sfii. But, as a matter of fact, those difficulties as regards the Cape route ai'e in no way insupei-able. are they, as regards the extra 1,000 miles, or whatever it may be, to be done in the same time ? — ^That is not the x'ight term, I think; it is not a question of the difficulties being insuperable, it is a question of the advantages on this side or that — a question of sheer expediency. 56.5. I admit that, but thei-eare points of expediency in favour of the Cape route ? — Possibly. The Right Honourable Sir Henry Primrose, K.C.B., C.S.I., called and examined. Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board, 566. (Chairman.) You have bean good enough to send us a note of evidence which you are prepared to give, and perhaps the most convenient form would be for me to ask you formal questions to enable you to develop your views on the subject. I understand you are the Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board ? — Yes, 1 am. 567. And you have been chairman since 1907 ? — Yes, August 1907 I think was the date on which 1 began. 568. I understand you desire to combat the con- tention that reduction of rates of existing tariffs can be made without loss of revenue ? — -Yes. You were kind enough to let me see some evidence which was given in Austi'alia and New Zealand, I think, and elsewhere. I noticed that a good many people are under the impression that a reduction on the rees of c abiing is immediately followed by an increase of traffic and that the increase of traffic before very long will make up for any loss in the reduction of rates. AH experience I have is against that. 1 have brought here a table which I would like each member of the Commission to have [handing in the same). Number of Ordinary Words exchanged between Australasia on the one side and Europe and America on the other. " Pacific" and ''Eastern." Year. Europe. Pacific. I Eastern. Total. 1886 1887 1S88 1889 18a0 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 190-1 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 19,813 462,010 500,469 516,165 623,941 695,346 665,611 725.767 773,031 862,881 370.258 434,681 493,922 498,723 504,638 724,989 868,357 1,015,120 9.59,371 1,575,033 1,987,173 1,742,188 1,558,894 1,795,686 1,737,491 1,764,991 1,779,014 1..522,211 1.620,903 1,681,826 1,805,863 1.846,194 1^733,737 1,758,214 1,988,604 2,075,935 370,258 434,681 493,922 498,723 504,638 724,989 868,357 1,01.5,120 9.59 371 1,575,033 1,987.173 1,742,188 1,558,894 1,795,686 1,737,491 •1912 830,072 2,068,135 1912 273,234 165,792 America. Pacific, Eastern. Total. 1,764,991 — 1,798,857 14,051 — 18.370 26,597 30.IB3 34,928 36,436 55,388 54,685 46,219 49.214 61,014 77,771 87,692 107,004 119,976 129,607 146.967 1,984,227 2,121,372 2,197,991 2,429.804 2,.541,.540 2,399,348 2,483,981 2,761,635 2,938,816 2,898,204 439,026 2.52,911 272,591 297,945 345,942 347,911 362,463 347,895 392,480 451.943 518,199 73,261 184.327 1.5,533 7,545 8,021 7,077 8.375 4,02(> 4,234 4,449 6.717 9,869 1,029 18,370 26,597 30,163 34,928 36,436 55,388 54,685 46,219 49,214 61,014 77.771 87,692 U'7,004 119,976 129,607 146,967 198,378 268,444 280,136 305.966 35.3,019 356,286 366,489 3.52,129 396,929 458,690 J28,068 74,290 Euiope and America. Pacific. Eastern. 388.628 461.278 524,085 533.651 541,074 780,377 923,042 1,061.339 1,008,585 1,636,047 2,064,944 1,829,880 1,665,898 1,915,662 1,867,098 1,911,958 33.894 714,927 773,060 814,110 969,883 1,043,2.57 1.028,074 1,073,662 1.165,511 1,314.824 1,348,271 346.495 1.963.341 1,537,714 1.628.448 1,689.84 Total. 388,628 461.278 .524,085 533,651 .541,074 780,377 923,042 1,061,339 1,008,585 1,636,047 2,064,944 1,829,880 1,665,898 1,915,662 1,867,098 1,911,958 1,997,235 2,252.671 2,401,508 2,503,9.57 1,812,940 2,782,823 1.854.569 ! 2,897,826 1,737.763 ' 2,765,837 1,762,448 I 2.836.110 1,993,053 2,082,682 2,078,001 166,821 3,158,564 3,397,506 3,426,2 -.13,316 Rcra.'irks. 1st July, 9.<. ill. (reduceil fnim"lo.<. Si/.). 1st M.iy. 4.V. .S. and \V. Australia. Messa.se fund started. 1st January, in. 9il. S. and VV. A'j.stralia. 1st May, 4s. All Colo- nies. 1st January, 3.«. 6rf. All Colonies. Cooos route opened, November. 1st January. 3.«. .\U Colduies. Pacific cable opened, December 8th. Increase over 1902 — Europe, 63 per cent. ; America. 131 per cent. Deferred introduce. I, January. 1st These are some figures with reference to the rates charged to Australia both before and since the Pacific cable was opened. I would like the Commission to look at the year 1896, which was before our cable opened. That is the year of the maximum traffic under the 4s. '3d. i-ate. I might just mention perhaps as you wUl see in the remarks that iu 1890 the rate was reduced to 4s., and was put up again two years later to 4s. 9^. The reason of that was that when it was reduced to 4«. the Australian Governments (that was before Federa- tion) undertook to make up to the Eastern Company a certain proportion of the loss. The proportion they D 3 30 bOMINlONS ROYAL COMMISSION ! 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimkose, K.c.b.. C.8.1. [Oversea Communicatione ; Post and Telegraph. had to make up they found such a heavy tax upon them that thev themselves asked the Company. I believe, to raise the tariff again to is. 9d. a word, and that prevailed, as you \vill see. mitil the year 1899. when it came down to 4s.. and next year it came down to 3s. tW.. and next yeaj- to 3s. Those i-ednetions. of course, were in view of the probable opening of the Pacific cable. Xow let us take the period dm-ing wliii-h the rate was at 4s. ihl. and you will find that in the year 1890 the traffic to Europe (which I think we have to keep separate from the traffic to America. l)ecause the opening of the Pacific cable really created the American traffic you may say. and therefoi-e in order to compare like ynth like we ought to confine om- attention to the European traffic, at any rate in the first instance) was nearly two million words at the full rate. If you will "go on to the year 1911. which was the last year before we had introduced the deferred messages, which complicates matters, and again in order to compare like with like— you will see that we had just under a total of 3.000,000. combining om- traffic with that of the Eastern. That, if you work it out. practically amoiuits to 48 per cent. — to be (juite accurate it is 47 89 per cent. — increase, call it 48 per cent. Xow what ought the increa.se of traffic to have teen in oi-der to compensate for the reduction of rate from 4s. ikl. to 3s. ? lu order really to compensate, the increase ought to have been a little over 58 per cent. Therefore, even in 1-5 years you see the amount of traffic has not increased sufficiently to make up the i-eduction in the rate. .569. Ton are taking a peak year with an average year; your J896 year is a peak year? — Tes. but I think you ought "to take the peak year because that represents what the pressm-e of the rate could d.;. I think you must take the peak year- ; you are wanting to know" what is the force of the pressure of the 4.>\ 9d. rate. Therefore. 1 think you must take the peak year and not the average. Of course many other things come into consideration. It is not to be supposed that the 3.000.000, or thereabouts, words which were sent in the year 1911 represent no more than the :>,000.000 words which were sent in 1896, because the improvement of codes has no doubt enabled a great deal more matter to be packed into those 3.000,000 words than was packed into the 2,000,000 words of 1896. 570. Can you estimate how much that amoimts to ■• — No, I do not think that is possible. 571. {Mr. CcmpbeU.) Is not that year 1896 the year in which the traffic was forced up by the Western Austi-alian mining boom ?— Very likely ; no doubt the traffic rises and falls according to the trade. 572. Still, it is hardly a year you could argue a question of this sort from :- — I think so, because we are hxjking at one element in the case, which is the rate. If J'ou find that iu a given year the rate could not operate i<> depress the traffic beyond a certain point that. I think, is your real test of what the pressxu-e that the rate can exercise is. rather than the average. However, that is one of my instances. 573. (Chairman.) Will you please go on to your next point ? — I am now wanting to keep to what I might call the eridence from experience. The Atlantic companies (this I give on the authority of a letter from Mr. Goddard. wlui is the European representative of the Western i:'nion. and who kindly supplied me with facts picked out of the published reports of the Anglo-American Company which they have absofbed) in or about the year 1884 reduced the rate from 2s. to 1.S-. 8(7. There liad been changes in the rates before, but I will not go further back than that. In the report for the half-year ending 31st December 1885 thev said that the "loss caused by reduction of rate from 2s. to Is. Sd. (that would exactly con-espond with the reduction in om- rate from 3s. to 2s. (id.) estimated in the report of the directors, dated 29th Januai-j- 1885. at 170.000/. a year has amounted to more than that sum. as it has not been followed by any augmentation of tiie traffic. That was in 1885. Now then a year later, in view of the competition of the Commercial Cable Company, which was opened, I think, in 1884, they suddenly reduced their rate from Is. Sd. to 6rf. a word. That was a reduction of 70 per cent, and this is what they say about the effect of that : ■' a consider- " able augmentation of the traffic, much larger than ■ was anticipated as a tirst result amounting to 116 per •■ cent., and althoiigh the total receipts have greatly - decreased the company is earning sufficient to pay ■■ its working expenses plus a siuu to the credit of the -' renewal fund."' For the next few years reference is made to the tid. tariff, which lasted about three years, I think, and which apparently continued to produce an autrmentation of traffic. In the report for December 1887. the last year they had the 6rf. i-ate, they stated that the traffic passing over the cables of the joint companies showed an increase of 12 per cent, over the same period of 1886 (both those years there was a 6rf. rate) and an increase of 126 per cent, over the same period in 1885 w-hen the Is. 8(f. rate was in force ; but they go on to say that the ti-affic was yet unremunera- tive. That 70 per cent, reduction in the rate was a very enormous reduction, and in order to compensate for such a reduction as 70 per ceni., the increase of traffic instead of being as it was. 126 per cent., ought to have l)een as much as 233 per cent. You see you reduced your rate to rather less than one third. Therefore, in order to compensate for that you ought to have got an increase of ti-affic i-ather more than three times as much so as to balance. Having got to that point they got tired of the 6rf. i-ate and went back in 1888 to the Is. rate, which has been maintained ever since. I think both the experience of the Atlantic companies and the experience of the Eastern does show that while, of coui-se, the higher the rate and the greater the reduction, the more the effect wiU be upon the traffic, when you have got down to moderate i-ates, if you only make a compai-ativelv small percentage of reduction it really hardly affects the traffic at all. That, I think, for reasons which I may give later, is exactly what one would expect, but before I go away from that point I would like to go to our experience in the reduction of the jjress rate, because that is a different class of traffic altogether, which took place in the year 1909 as the result of the Imperial Press Conference, which was held in London. This (handing in a table, for which see page 31) shows exactly the number of words carried by the Pacific and the Eastern respectively. The reduction that was made in 1909 was from Is. a word to 9d. a word. Xow if you take the year before the reduction was made. 1907-8, you see that there was a total of 360,000 odd words costing to the press about 18,000/. At that conference a very great deal was made of the extreme importance of enabUng the press to supply a larger amount of news, and there was something very like an imdertaking given that if such a reduction was made the press would not save any money by it. but would use the concession in price for the purpose of increasing their supply of news. But you find that whereas in 1907-8 the press were spending 18,000/. on then- cables, in the year- 1909-10, which is the year after, they only spent 14,000/. ; in other words they i-eally economised the whole of the money. After that we go up very much ; the deferred press brings it up for one thing, and there again I do not for a moment suggest that the rate is the only consideration which affects the total amount of traffic, because there are many other things, but still it is significant that the immediate effect of the i-eduction fi-om Is. to 9rf. was practically nil from the point of view of increasing the supply of news. 574. However, the total effect of the reductions after a certain nimiber of years has I^een to increase the number of words sent from 360,000 to 627,000 .= — Yes, but I think there are many other considerations. I cannot speak with knowledge, but a great deal has happened. For instance, new papers have ijeen started in Australia. A new sei-vice altogether has been started by the - Sun " as to which you have had some evidence. I ought to say this does not include the amount of traffic suppUed by a company which was started, I think, in the year 1910, just after the conference, called the '■ Independent Cable Service," which collects MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 31 a^ 12 Novemher 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Pkimbosb, k.c.b., c.s.i. [Oversea Communications .- Post and Telegraph. Australasian Press Traffic. The following figures show the effect on the volvime of traffic caused through the reduction of rates between the United Kingdom and Australasia : — Pacific. Eastern. Total. Coat to Press *1 901-2 - - - - 289,626 289,626 £ 14,481 1902-3 ... - 1,612 244,159 245,771 12,289 1903-4 - - 37,146 265.806 302,952 15,148 1904-5 ... - 18,973 237,100 256,073 12,804 1905-6 - - - - 13,034 254,481 267,515 13,376 1906-7 ... - 16,744 241,833 258,577 12,929 1907-8 - - - . 84,295 276.378 360,673 18,039 +1908-9 - . - - 70,167 249,470 319,637 15,983 1909-10 .... 94,021 243,861 337,882 14,023 ] 910-11 ... - 152,665 Deferred press.* 230,197 DefeiTed press. 382,862 14,357 1911-12 .... 170,519 17,363 238.747 426,629 15,673 1912-13 .... 122,841 106,849 397,644 177 627.511 19,523 ' Board opened on December 7tb, 1902. t Kate reduced from l.«. lo 9J. per word on August 1st, 1909, and to 7hi. on September 26tLi, 1912. I Introduced on Deccmlser 6th, 1911. Total press traffic the year before 1st reduction ,, ., last year .... Increase 319,637 words costing 15,982 627,511 „ „ 19,523 96 per cent. 22 per cent. its news m Canada, and telegraphs it from Canada to Australia, thereby, of course, saving a great deal because they get a very cheap rate ; but that service was given a subsidy. Altogether they have received 6,000?. for three years, and that, I suppose, is just about coming to an end. Any way, the amount they paid to us was very little more than the amount of the 6,000L they received from the Government. 575. But would not you agree that the net effect of your reduction as shown in these figures was satisfactory ? — I read those figures as indicating that apart from other things the effect of the reduction was nil. I take a clear year, 1909-10, during which the rate was 9d.. and a clear year during which it was Is., namely 1907-8. and diu-ing that time, of course, the other influences would have less time to operate ; there would be less change in the two years, and yet what you find is that not a bit more news was sent ; the papers benefited to the extent of 4,000?.. but that was not our object, and we should not have done it for that purpose. 576. However, when you come to 1912-13 you have the number of words nearly doubled ? — Tes. 577. In fact more than doubled when you compare 1912-13 with any triennial average of the earlier period ." — Tes, but I think one would say that was due less to reduced rate than to the other influences which operate. 578. Have you any further figures to bring forward in connection with yoiu- contention, or would you pass to the theoretical considerations ? — I think those are all the figures I can offer. Of course, as I say, a great deal depends. If you hive got a rate which is really oppressive, and if you have reduced it. then undoubtedly you would have a considerable increase in traffic ; but our present rate is certainly not opi>ressive to the business people who send us by far the larger proportion of traffic. On that I have a table I should like to put in (handing in the same) showing what proportion of oiu- traffic comes from liusiness telegrams, and what proportion from private telegrams. Statement showing Four Weeks (1912-13) Ordinary and Deferred Ordinary International Traffic Classified Private and Business. Ovdi nary. Deferred Ordinary. I'rivate. Business. I'cvcenta^ic. I'rivate. Business. Private. Business. Percentage. Private. Business. Outward . Homeward 3,155 3,455 40,253 55,955 7-27 92-73 5-82 ( 94-18 8,472 8,016 7,797 9,389 52-07 46-06 47-93 53-94 6,610 96,208 6-43 93-57 16,488 17,186 48-96 j1-04 579. That is very interesting. — I should say that it wotdd be an enormous labour to analyse the traffic over any long period, but the way I did it M-as this: I took four weeks in the year 1912-13. not c-on. secutive weeks, but I picked out, or rather I had a normal week selected in each of the four quarters, and we analysed the whole of the traffic dui-ing those weeks. This table gives you quite shortly the results. I have them in detail for,thefovir weeks, but I thought it more convenientf or the Commission merely to have this simple table, becattse there you see the result at a glance. You see at a glance that out of the ordinary, about 6.V per cent, is private and 934 per cent, is business. Then, of coiu-se. when you tui-n to the deferred ordinary, it is different ; it is very nearly half and half. 580. Can you s<ay what it wovdd be for the week, end ? — The week-end has only been going since the l;ieginuing of this year, and 1 think statistics which are founded on inadequate material are very fallacious. After all, you cannot really judge of the weei-end very D 4 32 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION 12 yovember 1913.] Rt. Hon. oir H. Primeose. k.c.b., c.S.i. [_Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. ■well yet, because fli-st of all it took people a little time to understand it. It lias been keeping wonderfully steiidy, between •5.000 and 6,000 words a week, so fai' as we are conceraed. I do not know what the Ea.steni have. Now, lookino: at tlie figures of ordinaiy ti^afiic. and taking that great proportion which is supplied by the business trafifie. and taking the present rate cf 3s. a word, combined with these ekbonite com- bination codes which get in, it is very difficiUt to say how miiny, but certainly not less than six effective words for each word that is in the code (and when I say effective. I mean omitting obriously useless words like the article •'the" or "a"' and things of that kind). I do not suppose the i-ate really exercises any restraining influence upon business people in the matter of cabling. I think it is diffictilt to suppose that, over such transactions as the cables deal with, a few shillings more or less could make much difference. Therefore, under the circumstances I should veiy much doubt whether for business people, taking any con- ceivable reduction which might l.v possible at the present moment such as 6d. or anything of tb.at kind, it would make any difference at all in the traffic. I do not think it would. The only people it would make any real difference to would be private people who on occasions, and only on occasions, find they would like to telegi-aph, and if they find the prices very high they say, '■ We must do without." If, on the other hand, they find it is moderate, knowing that they have got these opportunities, the defeiTed and the week-end. they will probably resort to them, and it is only that class of business that would be affected. As I say. that class of business is rekitively quite small, and I think that the possible extensions of it are not great, because nobody telegraphs for the sake of telegraphing. You must have a good strong reason for telegi-aphing ' before you do telegi-aph ; even in this countiy one does not send a telegram even at a halfpenny a word if a letter wiU do as well. So that I think, from that point c-i view, such a reduction as 6d. would have very little effect upon the total amount of traffic, and would i-esult in merely a coiTesponding reduction in our revenue, which at present we cannot afford. 581. That applies to the full-i-ate telegrams 'f — That is so. 582. Jfow as regards the defen-ed and the week- end, what do you say about either a further i-eduction of price or fui-ther facUities, such as those we recom- mended'- — I think they again would certainly result in loss. What we felt was that the justification fiir introducing the deferred at all was this : we considered (and I think it was genei-ally considered) that it woidd to some extent create new business, that is to say, that a considei-ahle amount of traffic would be created which woidd not othei-n'ise have existed, it would induce people to use the cable, who, if they had to pay the 3s. i-ate. would not use it, and experience, I think, shows that has been the result. I do not think that more than about half of the traffic we get for the defeiTed is new ti-affic. A good deal of it represents business ; if you look, they are nearly half-and- half. The business half represents, I think, pretty largely messages which were not very pressing in point of time, and which it was more convenient to send in plain language ; after all, there is always a certain advantage in sending in plain language, because you save the coding at one end and the decoding at the other; so that if there is nothing secret about a message, if thei-e is nothing which for business pm-poses you do not want to be kni>wn. and if you are not in a veiy great huny there is a certain advan- tage in sending defen-ed. If defen-ed had not existed. I think probably all those messages would have been sent, but they would have been sent in code, packed much tighter, so that there perhaps we gain a little. It might be worth people's while, instead of coding a message, to send rather a longer message at the de- ferred rate, and spend a little more upon it. just to save the expense of coding and decoding at the other end. But to reduce still further I think would have this effect, that it would transfer a certain amount of business from the ordinaiy category, which pays us well, to the deferred category, which barely pays us except in so fai- as it may be new business. Then I should say the same of the week-end cables, that there is always the risk, if you make those things too cheap, that you do really merely transfer a certain amount of the full-paid traffic to the half- or ijuarter-paid rates. 5S3. However, if coding reduces the number of wortls to one- sixth and your difference of charge is only one-half, you are really making the sender of a defen-ed telegi-am pay thi-ee times the rate of the coder ? — You are. but it is necessaiy to do that in order to prevent the business being transf en-ed from the categoiy which is remunerative to the category which is vini-e- munerative. The whole object of the defeii-ed was not to benefit business people, but to alleviate the tax on ■ private persons who, on occasions, had to use the cable, and hi so far as it relieves the business people that was not our object. Of coui-se, I agree I should not di-eam of wishing to keep the rates up higher than necessaiy to make the thing remvinei-ative, and the more you can come down the better, but for the moment we want to get a certain revenue out of the cable, and if we were to i-educe the deferred further we should diminish our chances of getting that revenue. .584. However, you agree with me that effectively you are chai-ging the defen-ed telegi-am in plain language three times the rate you ai-e charging the cypher telegi-am at full rate ? — No doubt, yes, roughly that is so. 585. That is basing myself on your calculation ? — Rouglily. 58t). Now we come to the question of load factor ? — I think the Commission have already had befo)-e them the little volume of notes* which we published a year or two ago. and in that we give T.OOO.OOO paying words per annum as about the maximum. 587. A^Tiat proportion of your real maximum capacity is now passing over the Pacific cable ? — Roughly thi-ee-sevenths. We are doing, you may say, at the present moment about 3.000,000 words all told. 588. That is including defen-ed ? — Everything. I have put the maximum theoretical capacity at 7.000,000. I should saj" that is considerably higher than the estimate which the Post Office made two years ago of the can-ying capacity of an Atlantic cable, although om- length of cable between Vancouver and Fanning Island is pretty nearly double what the length of the Atlantic cable would be. so evidently there is room for a great deal of difference of opinion. For the purposes of argument it is better, perhaps, to put it high, and I would i-dther put it a little too high than too low. I think you may take 7.000.000 as a veiy full estimate. 589. That is with the recent developments, the duplex working and so forth ? — Yes. 590. It would not be higher than that ? — No. 591. AVbat do yon say of the load factor of thi-ee- sevenths ? Does that allow you more than enough margin ? — Yes. I think so. That is a matter perhaps for people who are better acquainted with the technical working, but my own impressiim is that -5.000,000 words would be about as much as it would be adrisable to have in order to avoid the danger, which is very serious, of the cable getting itself blocked with matt«r which is not really very important, to the exclusion of business telegi-ams which are really lu-gent. 592. So you have then a capacity of dealing with about 5,000,000 words as opposed to the actual 3.000,000 ?— I should put it like that, and even then of the 5,000,000 a considerable amount must be of a kind which you could defer; for instance, we are entitled to defer press messages up to a point, and ^vith the defen-ed and week-end cables also we are entitled to defer them, but allowing for that I think about 5.0UO.(lllO words, or perhaps 5-J million words of all kinds would be about as much as it woiUd be advisable to put on to the cable. 593. You state here that it would not be desirable to inci-eise the load factor by traffic which did not bring in an average of at least Is. 6d. a word ? — Yes. 594. Would you kindly develop that ? — If I had a copy of the little book of notes which was supplied to the Commission it would help me. 595. Then we will pass on from that just now. and come back to it. I think you have something to say with regard to the co-operation between the Pacific * ■ ] id I'acific, beiiie ^^onK• notes on the Pacific Cable.'' MINUTES OF EVlDEXl'E. 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimrose, k.c.b., c.S.i. [Oversea Commiuiicaiions : Post and Telegrajjh. cable and the Eastern cable ? — Tes. I do not know how far the Commission is aware of the history of what passed in 1905, but in 1905 there was a committee which sat at the Colonial Office, presided (jver by the late Mr. Lyttelton, on which there were representatives of the different Dominions and ourselves. The immediate purpose cjf the inquiry was to look into a matter which is rather ancient history now, but at the very time when the negotiations were going on for the laying of the Pacific cable, and after it was quite clear almost that the Pacific cable was going to be laid, the Eastern entered into an agreement with the Govern- ment of New South Wales which allowed them to open offices of their own to a greater extent than they had done before. The promoters of the Pacific cable were very much annoyed at this, because they said, " This is " giving an advantage to the Eastern at the very moment " when you do not want to give it to them, because " you are just going to start your Government cable," and there was a good deal of f eelmg on the part of Canada and New Zealand, I think, and so the great question was : •' How can that agreement be set aside ? " The conference met for the purpose of discussing that. They found, as a matter of fact, that the agreement (which had been confirmed by a later agreement with the Commonwealth Government) could not be set aside, and it stands now, and it was in virtue of that agreement with the Eastern that the rate was reduced to 3s. just before the Pacific cable opened. In the course of that inquiry, when they found that they could not really get rid of these agreements, it occurred to them that another way of meeting the difficulty was instead of actively competing with the Eastern that the two should combine, very much, I suppose, on the same principle that while an existing railway will fight to the death to prevent a new railway being established which competes with it. if the new railway is established they then prolxibly think the best plan is t(j come to terms with them. That was the sort of idea. Those negotiations were pursued to a considerable point, and at that time, owing to the ch'cumstances, a considerable saving could have been made on the expenditiu'e of the two routes by a combination. A very large item would have been that we should have been able to dispense with our cable ship, which was cresting us 15,OI10Z. a year. Under present circumstances that could not tie done away with, and I do not believe thei'e would be any very large saving of expenditure. There would I)e some, because we spend a certain amount of money in (•anvassing for clients, and so do the Eastern, and probably the Eastern would be able to close certain offices because there would lie no longer any particular reason for giving their clients special facilities if we had a common purse, liut I do not think there woidd lie really any very great saving. Still it w(nild certainly have ad- vantages of a kind to both. To ns the great advantage would be — I do not want to suggest that I recommend it - — butimdoulitedlyitwould have an en<:irnious advantage in this way for us that we ride by a single anchor, so to speak, by a single cable, and if we had a working agreement and a common purse arrangement, if there was an interruption of our cable our revenue would not suffer. The whole would have to be carried by the Eastern cables, and onr revenue would keep up, whereas as things are now. if we had a bad break which lasted for any length of time in the northern parts of our cable, our revenue ceases altogether. I think that is really the most important consideration there is about it. 596. However, feeling is so strong against the idea in Australasia that I do not think we need pui-sue it in any detail? — No, 1 do not think it is a question of pi'at^tical politics for that reason. 597. Yim say here that " Althougli no precise " law or regulation determines the powers of either '• administration in the matter of rates, circumstances " conspire to make them in practice the subject of " agreement " ? — Neither in tlie Act which constituted the Pacific Cable Board, nor in any instructions issued to us by the Government, is there any specific direction or definition of what our powers are as regai'ds altering of rates. It may be assumed that we have thecn-etically E 20S3U almost complete power, subject to the general scheme of our enterprise, which is that it is to be, if possible, self-supporting. On that Mr. Chamberlain gave very strong assurances. In a letter which was signed by Lord Selljorne addressed to the Eastern and Eastern Extension Telegraph Companies, dated lOth July 1899. writing on Ijelialf of the Secretary of State, Lord Selborne said : " There is no intention of working the '■ new cable on other than commercial lines and at " remunei-ative rates.''* I have always held, myself, and I think the Board since it was instituted has held, that that really I'epresented the principle upon which we were to endeavcjur to work, and therefore that we shonld not be justified in introducing nttes which were not remunerative. 598. What meaning do you attach to the words " On commercial lines" ? — That we shoidd manage it as much as we can as though it was a private business : in other words, that we should manage it very much as a cable comjiany would manage it. 599. Does that mean that you would have as high rates as the traffic will stand ? — There I think you would have to qualify it. I think it is perfectly clear that if you take tlie history of the Pacific cable, and the intentions of those who laid it, you would never really be able to carry it on long at rates which brought in a substantial profit ; in other words, that the general revenues of the countries which laid the cable would not be allowed to reap benefit by profits made, and that the moment you got to that point you would have to begin to think about reducing rates, certainly. 6(M). The origin of the Pacific cable was primarily to reduce cable rates to Australia, we have been told 'i — No, I should not say that. Of course, I had nothing to do with the thing at that time, but my reading of the history of it is this, that the moment the telegrapli wires reached the Pacific coast of Canada, it became inevitable that somehow or another the Pacific Ocean should Ije spanned by cable. You have a large Brltisli Dominion on one side of the Pacific, and you have large British Dominions on the further side, and it was quite clear that those coimtries had got to be connected liy a cable, and I think that was the reason. No doubt also it was desired to establish something in the way of competition, especially. I suppose, that would influence Australia and New Zealand, and that they then felt that if there was competition the\' would be assured that they were not being charged undidy for their cable traffic. fiOl. Was not the motive of Australia and New Zealand in joining in the guarantees to obtain cheaper telegi'aphic communication H — I suppose, un- doubtedly, that would enter very largel3- into it, and it undoubtedly had that effect. The innnediate effect was to reduce from 4s. !W. to ;!s. 602. You go on to speak of deferred and week-end messages, which you have already explained, and' in connection with daily cable letters you say : '■ The " Pacific Cable Board have considered the question of " adopting the American system ; but hold that it is •• not appropriate between countries in which day and ■■ night do not coincide, even in part." Will you kindly explain that ? — The system of daily cable letters I think we have now established here, and they have it in the United States. The idea of that was, no doubt, to utilise the wires during the hours of the night when, if it was not for this soi-t of traffic, they would not, perhaps, be being used at all. In the earlier part of the night they are heavily charged with press work, but in the later hours and in the early morn- ing houi's they are probably pretty fi'ee. Now we have no such time as that, because if it is night here it is day in Australia, and if it is day here it is night in Australia, and the consequence is that there is no dead time. 603. So that you do not see your way at the present stage to I'ccommend any increased facilities ? — No, I think any increased facilities would tend to reduce our revenue in a way which I do not think is at present justified ; for instance, you were suggesting just now that the time would come when we covered onr own expenses and did not require any subsidy, and I replied that then, no doubt, you would have to begin p. 29 of [Cd. 4fi] January 1900. E 34 DOMINIONS nOYAL COM MISSION 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sii- H riilsiEOSE, k.c.b., c.s.i. ^Oversea Commiuiieatiotis : Post and Telegraph. to consider reductions in rates. Tliit is the time whon I think you might very well consider improve- meits, that is to say, an increase in the advaut;iges given for those cheaper rates. For instance, if you could not give away as much as a perceutage i-eductiou over eveiythiug. you might begin with reductions of the kind which have been suggested in connection ■vrith week-end cable letters, and pei-haps reduce the rate or give moi-e words or fewer words as a miuimuiu. All these things tend to make it a more expensive service to us and a more attractive sei-vice to the public. 604-. Would the reduction of the minimum number of words of the week-end letter act detriment ally ■" — I think it would, because every change of that kind you make tends to olilitei-ate the distinction between the defeiTed, which is the ordinaiy daily message, and the week-end cable. For instance, if the week-end cable was to be conveyed by wire inland as well as "l)y cable over-sea at both ends, and if it was to be deli\'ered on a Monday morning, thei'e would be really no distinction between it and the deferred message : and it conies to that, that you would then be giving your- deferred message for two days at the end of each week at half the ordinai-y rates. 60.J. Those are two days on which yoiu' lines are normally vacant? — No, there is a fair amomit doing. If you take between this country and America you maj- say there ai-e, perhaps, 40 hovu-s at the week-ends which are more or less idle, but if you take between us and Ansti-alia and New Zealand you really do not get moi-e than ii houi-s l^ecause there then- Monday has begun before oui- Sunday is ended, and oiu- Satui-ilay is going on dtmng pai-t of theu' Simday ; so that there is a good deal less dead time, and tliat is one reason why. when we fii-st suggested adopting this American plan of the week-end cable letters, we doubted whether we could be quite as libeiul as the American scheme was. for this reason partly, because we did not want to make it too atti'ac- tive and we had not as much spai-e time. The idea of the week-end cables, I think, was this, that it shoxxld enable people who might like to send i-ather a long telegi-am from time to time to do so, and that we should give them the oppoitunity of doing that at a fairly cheap rate. We did not want it to take the place of the defen-ed. The minimum charge for oui- message is now 18.s., but negotiations which have been going ou with the Post Office lately will almost certaiidy end in the minimum chai'ge being reduced to 15s., which is the equivalent of 20 words ; if you are to come much below that you get into an order of messjige which is really an ordinary defeiTed message. We do not want that the ordinaiy sort of message of congi-atulation, or the message as t;> having arrived safely in this countiy. and that sort of thing, shoidd be cheapened. What we want is — let us take this sort of case, that somebody out in Austj-alia has some law liusiness in this countiy, and may be suddenly called upon quite unexpectedly to send rather a long comnumication to his agents, legal or otherwise. Our object is to give those people an opportimity of .sending a message of that kind at a modei-ate price rather than to cheapen the ordinary message which would otliei-wise go at the defen-ed rate. GOli. Would you not wish to stimulate the sending of family telegi-ams of a social character ? — Personally, I should not. 607. Speaking quite impai-tially. that is sui-ely a new soiu'ce of income which might conceivably l^e developed ? — I do not think you woiild get much out of it ; there is no particidar object in it. Let me give my own experience : for the greater part of my life I had two brothel's out in Au.straUa (they are not there now) who spent the whole of their lives there, and eveiy now and then we sent a telegi-am. but however cheap they might have been I do not think we shoidd have sent any more- — why should we ? 608. That is hypothetical. — 1 do not think yon are suddenly inspired to send a telegi-am out of fam-ily affection. 609. But your family affection surely might be cui-bed by high prices !' — You woiUd like Christm:!s greetings or birthday greetings. 610. (Sir aider Haggard.) Cases of illness, and so on ? — Yes, but I think for those things we have got it as cheap as we can afford to make it. I should be glad to see it cheaper if we could afford it, but the whole of my argument rests on the fact that you would not then make up our loss. While perhaps a few more people would telegraph in case of illness, and so on. that would not make up to us for the loss we shoidd have on messages we shoidd have had in any case, and paid for at full rates. 611. (Chairman.) I quite understand that you do not want the people who now send at Ss. to send at "</. — No. 612. The question is whether it is not possible by extended facilities to reduce rates and to tap a non- existent source of revenue ? — That exactly states the case, I think, and I say " No. it is not." It is quit* ti-ue you might tap all these sources and you might produce a certain amount of new traffic, but the amount of exti-a traffic you will produce will uotliing like compensate you for the loss you will incur upon traffic which you woidd have had in any case. 613. At the higher rate ? — Yes. 611. There are two particular points you i-ather wanted to give evidence about, and one is about the Sydney " Sun " service on which we had some evidence in Austi-alia y- — Yes, you had some evidence which implied that it was owing to otu- inability that we did not get the traffic. 1 did not thiuk it worth while bringing all the coiTespondence, but I will read you two telegrams which passed on the 2(>th March 1913 between oiu-- selves and our Slanager in the Pacific. The Mjinager in the Pacific telegi-aphed to us on the 20th Mai-ch 1913. •• ' Sun ' " (that is the " Sun "" paper) •■ likely to ■■ give us half pi-ess service providing we can guai-antee •• same time in ti-ansit as Eastern. This is stated to " be I5 to 2 houi-s. The messages would te lodged in •• London between 8 in the evening and 1 in the ■• mornii4^. I suggest that Atlantic Company be '• approached for co-operation and promise expedition " for this traffic before going further," We were able to telegraph the same day to them, ■■ Press messages ; " have approached Atlantic companies who have •• promised expeditious service. Appears quite safe to ■■ offer as rapid a seiviceas the Ea-stei-n."' As a nuitter of fact our sei-vice is really, whenever eveiything goes smooth, as quick as, if not quicker than, tlie Eastern, so that as far as we were concei-ned we undertook to do exactly what they asked us to do. and we hoped, as the result of that, they would divide the traffic equally between oui-selves and the Eastern, which is what they proposed to do, but for some reason, which has not been commuiucated to us, they have, as a matter of fact, given the whole of their work to the Eastern. I merely want to point out that it was not our inability to offer them a good and effective service, but some other reasoJi they have not told us of. 61.5. There is another point about the identity of the rate between Australia and San Francisco with that between Australia and Vancouver ? — That is quite true, and at first sight it might seem stiunge. But, after all. the same thing liappens now in the case of a message for Germany (that is not so with Fiance, because we have not been able to an-ange the rate ; by our route to France it is 3s. 6rf.. whei-eas by the Eastern it is only 3s., so that the Eastern gets all). But when the Pacific Cable was fiist established we entered into negotiation with the Grerinan i^eople with the result that we wei-e able to offer a 3.<. rate from Gei-many to Australasia, which is the s;ime as fi-om the United Kingdom. In a corresptmduig way the 26. rate, which is for the American Continent, applies to the whole of North America, and, after all, it is Austi-ahan business and Austi-alian businessmen who pay, I suppose, the greater part of it. 616. (Mr. Tatlow.) Thei-e is just one question I should like to ask legaiding the press. You have given us a statement of the Australian press traffic. The last figm-e for the yeai- 1912-13 is a very striking figure ; there is an mcrease to 627.-j11. and that appears to be on account of the reduction to ~},J. which occiUTed in September 1912 : does not that look as if. when the i-.ite is made sufficiently low. it would induce a consider- able accession of ti'affic ? — No doubt the "Arf. came in on the 26th September 1912, so that it has been in force a little more than a year. But I should imagine MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. oO 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Si-.- H. Peimrose, K.C.B., c.s.l. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. that that gi-eat increase is due really to the starting of new papers in Australia. I cannct speak for certain. 617. Do you know to -what extent these ue-w papers have contributed to that lai-ge inci'ease ? — I cannot tell you that. 618. May we not assiune that the reduction to 9d. was not suflScient, but that the reduction to "hd. was sufficient to induce a large additional business ?— I should certainly not infer it from those figures. 619. Is not that what they sliow? — If a 25 per cent, reduction in 1909 has no effect whatever upon the amount of ti-affic, I hardly think that it is likely that lid., which is only half, a year or two afterwards would account for this enoimous increase. If you look, the great increase has taken place on what the Eastern have carried. 620. The reduction applie.s on l>oth routes ? — No, the Eastern have no defen-ed. 621. We are speaking of the press messages; do the Eastern not charge them 7id. ? — Yes, but not the half I'ate. 622. The deferred figures apply to both routes, by which the i-ates ai'e the same ? — Yes. 623. And the assumption is that the reduction has made a very large increase, and even the reduction to 9d. made a considerable increase, because in the year 1911-12 there is 426.000. To my mind this statement shows that the reductions have produced traffic. — 1 am afraid I should not agree. 62-1. Then on this larger statement here, comparing the figm-e for the year 1896. the figure for Europe was 1,987,000, as comi>ared with the last year 2,068,000, by the Eastern route only, but 1 think, as Mr. Campbell suggested, that is really a bad year to take for a com- parison, as it was abnormally swollen by sj)ecial cir- cumstances, and all tlie other years are consideiubly less ? — Quite so, but the px'essure of the 4s. 9rf. rate is a constant thing. Those variations represent the effect of influences which are not constant and which we do not know; but as to the 4s. 9d. constant rate, you surely get a better test of the mischief it can do by seeing what the traffic could get up to with the 4s. 9c7. rate than by taking an average. 625. I only wanted to call your attention to the fact that you do not take a nonnal year for comparison. — I took it deliberately on that gromid. 626. You admit your cable is capable of doing a veiy large amomit of extra work, some 2,000,000 words ? — Yes. 627. And that additional work could be done at very little, if any, increased expenditure ? — All increase of business leads to increased expenditure. 628. Not necessarily, I think. — It is very difficult to show ; it is rather like drawing the hairs out of a horse's tail ; each hair you take does not make any difference, but eventually the tail disappears. In the same way one cannot go on doing more biisiness and keeping the same staff. I do not say that with a very small percentage of addition we could not do with the same staff, but you vei-y soon get to an increase of staff. 629. There may be some, but no serious adtlition up to a certain point ; to a large extent the staff' could be employed in doing moi-e work ? — Yes. 630. If that is the case is not it i-eally good business to endeavour to attract additional traffic even at lower rates ? Yo)i have instanced i-ailway companies ; that is just exactly what railway companies do. Take their week-end traffic, they arrange week-end excursions to indiice traffic which would not otherwise come ? —Yes. 631. Is it not well worth while to try to enlarge this description of business, which is at present a very small percentage of the whole at the cheaper week-end rates ? — That is what we have been doing exactly, btit we have done it to the extent we think wise and safe. 632. Cannot you experiment a little further with it ? You could go tentatively and quietly and see the result ? — We could do it, but if we are quite satisfied in oui' own minds that it means a loss crf revenue, we do not feel justified in doing it. Tliat is the whole point. 633. On the other hand, if there is no loss and if it induces additional traffic, should not the benefit which it confers on Australia and New Zealand be taken into ;iccount ? — -I come back to th;it. that we are convinced, as I said to the Chairman, that whUe no doubt if you cheapened rates you tap sources of traffic which do not now contribute to our revenue, you would not tap new sources to a sufficient amo-mt to cover the. loss you would suffer on the existing traffic. You cannot cheapen only the new traffic ; yon must cheapen both the old and the new. 634. To such an extent as the old traffic falls into the new, which may be only t^ a small extent ? — It would not be to a small extent ; it would be, at all events, to an appreciable extent. 635. I want to draw your attention to one matter in your paper. You say : " The present load factor of ■' the cable is about three million paying words per '■ annum. The margin is more than enough. But a '• substantial margin is a necessity. The service on a " cable loaded to its full capacity v/ould be no more " satisfactoiy than a passenger ti-ain service with every " train loaded to its full capacity." On that point I would just like to say that every train loaded to its full capacity is just what i-ailway companies are striving for, and by analogy I think your Cable Board ought to try something in the same way. — I am not a i-ailway director. 636. If every train on a railway was loaded to its fidl capacity, there would be a booming business both with goods and passengers. — With goods. I would expect myself, if I were a railway director, and on my line every passenger train was crammed full, that the demands from the public for additional ti-ains would be so great that I should li.ive to j ut them on. 637. Not if there was i-oon; n the trains. If they were full, you woidd, for the surplus jjassengers supply additional trains at a profit ? — \ ;;u would always have the risk tliat somebody would conic- up to the ti-ain and not be able to get into it. 638. My idea is that it is good business to use your machine to its fullest paying capacity. — As a general principle, I quite agree, but I do not tiink it would be wise for IIS to go further than we ha ve done. I think, after all, we have done a very great deal in the last two years. We have introduced thi^ deferred traffic, which has been a very great boon to the public ; we have introduced the week-end cables ; we have reduced the price twice within the last four years ; and we have made no less than three reductions on press messages, liecause we came do^vn from Is. Ut 9rf.. from 9d. to ~id., and now we liave also the deferred press service, -«'hich is really so cheap that the Eastern entirely decline to carry it. 639. Have not yoiu- receipts increased during those years you have been making reductions ? — Yes. 640. Is not that an encom-agement ? Does it not show that thos3 reductions have been wise reductions ? — Certainly. All I am arguing is that I ventiu-e to think j'ou picss for reductions which would not T>e wise ; that is my point. 041. {Mr. Larimer.) Just one question. Do you admit that your present rates are the most prf>fitable you have yet charged ? — I do not know that I should go BO far as that. You mean that our total revenue has increased by these reduced i-ates ? 642. I am pi-oceeding on this particular ground, so far as we have gathered from the figures at present, that you are now, of recent yeai-s, gettiyg much nearer to being self-supporting than you ever were before? —Yes. 643. And that has been more marked since you have made the reduction to the 3.<;. rate ? — We have always had a 3s. rate. 644. Biit you were away uji at 9.<. Id. and 4s. 9(7., and so on. — That was beftne the Pacific cable started. 645. I beg your pardon. You began in 1903, and you have always ■ •* — We have always had ;i 3s. i-ate. 646. What I want to point out, if I may just call your attention to the first sheet of figures, is this : you had in 1896 the largest amount of business that was ever obtained imder tbe 4s. 9d. rate ? — The total tiaffic between Australasia and the United Kingdom E 2 3(1 noMIXlnNS ROYAL COMMISSION : 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Primkose, k.c.b., c.S.i. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. was the highest in that year that it had ever been, yes ; but you must remember that the Pacific cable did not cxi-si then. 617. I had failed to notice that. So that your rate ita« always l.eeu 3s. ? — Yes. tJ48. \Miat I should like to call your atteutiim to it thut while the 4.<. !'</. rate prevailed, there was an extraordiuirj- irregularity in respect of the amount of business done year by year ? — Yes. 649. But since the 3).-. rate was introduced, there has been an almost, not quite, but an almost unbroken continuity of improvement ; one year there was a slight decrease, but every other year has shown an increase on the previous year ? — Yes. 650. So that you have now about 70 per cent, more business tliau in the largest year under the ■i.". ihi. rate ? — If you take the Eiu-opean business alone it is under •50 per cent. — IS per cent, increase. 6.51. I am comparing 3,426,000 words, the last line in the column there, with 2.065,000 : that is an increase of about 70 per cent. ? — Yes. but a veiy large amoimt of that increase is due to the American traffic which vou may say the Pacific cable created. 652." Could you throw any light on the curious in-egularities which prevailed in the years prior to the existence of the Pacific cable — sometimes higher and sometimes lower ? — I imagine that was due to con- ditions in Australia ; for instance, I forget when the last drought in Australia was. but I think it was somewhere about the Ijeginning of this century, and there was the gi-eat bank crisis in the nineties. 6.i)3. But this is in 1896, and I wondered whether there was any public matter which would account for the large increase of business over the previous year, and for the faUing off in the years which followed .' — I do not think we can say so ; I suppose it was owing to the general condition of trade. The wool trade, of course, brings in a considei-able revenue, and the fluctuations in that may account for a good deal. 654. As that existed before the Pacific Cable Board, you cannot tell what were the proportions of press messages to private messages in that year ? — No. 655. But as there hag been such a steady ami almost unbroken increase in the business since the 3.s-. rate was introduced, does it not suggest that there is possibly a field for further development at lower rates ? — No, I think not. liecause the lower you get youi- i-ates. the moment you have got your i-ates down to :i qiute moderate charge which really does not oppress l>usiness men and does not reaUy check the amount of cabling they do. then a further reduction does not stimulate business so much as it is a gain t^> the business men, and puts money into their pockets. 656. The people in Australia told us that with a i-ate of half the present rate the cabling would be enoi-mously increased. They suggested that instead of keeping large stocks as they do just now they would cable almost daily for the correct amount of stock and so on ? — I cannot speak upon that, but I should venture to doubt it. 657. At all events the fact remains that with the pi-esent rate, which is so much lower than fonnerly. there has been a steady increase of business year by year which remains imbroken at the present moment ? — I think you may say so. 658. There is one more question I want to ask — I do not know whether you referred to it or not, but it is with regard to the proposal for a State-owned cable across the Atlantic : your own opinion is advei-se to that ? — I do not think it is wanted, and I am quite sure that it could not be rennmerative. 659. I simply wanted to ask this : Is your opposition grounded upon commercial reasons only or on strategical as well as commercial reiisons!-' — Purely on commercial reasons. 660. (Sir Alfred ni'tcmmi.) I think you and I are about contemporaries ? — I think we are. 661. Do you not think you are rather pessimistic in your sentence here about cable rates. '• Cabling does " not appeal to a univei-sal and almost insatiable " appetite. Rather it represents a painful obligation, " to be obeyed only under pressiu-e. To cheapen the " process may diminish the distaste for it, but can " never convert it into a pleasm-e '" ? — I certainly speak for myself when I say that, but I should not like to speak for anybody else. 662. Yon have not been in Australia yom-self ? —No. 663. Certainly I was very much struck with the wish the people seemed to have to cable more and more — the pleasure they take in it. — They would give us great pleasure if they would only ol)ey that impiUse. 664. But they are waiting for you to i-educe. Do you not think you wiU tap a good many sourees by reduction y — -Undoubtedly you would bring in a certain amoimt of additional business, but as I said before, it would not compensate yon for your losses on the old business ; and, after all, that is the point we have to consider. 1 qvdte agree that once we get to the point of being self-supporting, no longer i-equiring a subsidy and st) on, all those questions would come directly within the range of pi-actical politics. 665. As regards increase of messages, I do not think you told us that that meant increase of cost. Supposing you have 3.000. OOO and afterwards get 4,000,000 words, does that addition represent any large increase in cost ? — Undoubtedly our establishment charges would distinctly go up. 666. Would they go up considerably or to a small extent only ? — It is veiy difficult to say. but there is one thing you will at once have to do ; the mere .accountant's work in connection with these messages is a big business. A careful record has to be kept of every message, and it has to be counted and entered, and a claim made against the other administi'ations. and so on. You largely inci-ease the amount of clerical business and then, if you increase the amount of the operating, you have to increase your operatoi-s. 667. Still, not a veiy large percentage ? — No. 66S. Have the Board considered the position of Canada with regard to the wireless system — the question of sending messages by the Canadian Avii-eless ? — Across Canada do you mean by wireless ? 669. Yes. — We have not taken that up actively yet. because really our view is that wireless at present is in such an uncertain position ; it is obviously going to play a very important part, and sooner or later we shall have to take it up. but tlie experience of other people who have entered into conti-acts for wireless does not encourage us ti) embark on a contract at this moment. 670. Perhaps yoti do not consider it essential at present ? — No doubt it will have to be kept in view. 671. But not at present? — With the competing systems it is so uncertain which is the best and so on. but after all the Canadian Government have entered into a contract ^vith one of the companies, the company which has the Poulsen system, and we shall watch the development of that very closely. 672. (Mr. Campbell.) I do not know whether I quite understood yom- figures about the load of the pi-esent working business of the cable. You say that a full load woiUd amount to 7,000,000 paying words a vear y —Yes. 673. Then you give the figm-es of the business transacted now at 3,000,000 words a year? — Yes. 674. Are the 3,000,000 words paying words ? — Those are 3,000,000 paying words of all kinds, in- cluding press and deferred press and every message of every sort and kind. In our last aitnual report up to 31st March last, the exact number is 2,670,575. Those are all paying words in the different classes. When I put it at 3,00(),0')0 I took a roxmd figui-e, and our total ti-afiic is i-ather bigger this year than last. 675. You estimate that the cable could fulfil work, allowing a proper margin, at the 5,000.{Klit words? — Yes. 676. Practically, 3x)ur present business only amounts to i>ne-half the pi-acticable load of the cable ? — Yes. 677. In yoiu- preci.-^ of evidence you say, •' To •' increase the load factor by traffic that did not bring ■■ in an average of at least Is. 6rf. per word for the full " transit between Europe and Australasia would not "■ be remunerative to the Pacific cable "" ; was not that little book called •■ Via the Pacific" published by the authority of the Cable Board ? — Yes. MINUTKS OF EVIDENCK. Ol ]2 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimrose, k.c.b., c.s.i. [Oversea Comiminications : Post and Telegraph. 678. In that it is estimated that Is. M. is the lowest remimei-dtive price ? — Yes, I think l.s. id. is putting it veiy low, but perhaps I ought to have kept to the Is. 4d., which is nearer. 679. Shall we read that U. tid. as U. id.?— Yes, please. 680. You still have somewhere about 2,500,000 words to make up a reasonable and safe load for the cable, and you cany press messages at 7Af7. a word. Would it not pay you to load up the cable at a price similar to that of press messages if you could get a volume of business ? — I do not think it would, because it costs us more than 7id. to caiTy the press messages now. The press is not i-emunerative work. 681. The press business does not pay? — I do not tliink so ; as long as you do not have too much of it. you can fill up spare time with it, but if you have got too much of it, it would not do to load up the cable to any veiy great extent with traffic at 7\d. 682. This is the point which is woriying me : Do you want any more press business — would it pay you to take it? — If you ask me I do not, but I quite recognise that it is desirable that the cable should be used for the purpose of i>ress messages to as large an extent as is really requii-ed in the interest of the public, keeping them informed, and so on. But from the point of view of our business I would much rather not have the press message. 683. To that extent the qiiestion of public policy does come in? — Yes. 684. And you woidd take uni-emunerative business from the point of view of public policy ? — Yes, up to a point. 685. One thing in connection with these press messages : You give the figures here showing an in- crease of business following the reduction given to the press messages. You show an increase in words of 96 per cent., and an increase in revenue of 22 per cent., but I think you told the Commission that in youi- opinion the result of the reduction of press messages was practically nil ; was not that so ? — The residt of the first reduction to 9d. I consider was nil ; that is to say, it was nil in the sense that it was nil in so far as the increase of traffic was concerned. It took 4,00(lZ. out of the cable's pockets and put them into the pockets of the press, but so far as stimulating the communication of news between this coimtry and the Dominions was concerned it was nil. 686. This was the point that was appealing to me, or rather that I did not quite understand. You got an increase of 22 per cent, of revenue following on the decrease of the rate for press messages. Were there inci-eased expenses in connection with the working of those messages amounting to 22 per cent, also? 1 am taking it from that table you have given us of the Australasian press traffic ? — You are taking the last figure for the year 1912-13. 687. I am taking the figures at the bottom of the return : " Total press traffic for the year before first reduction," and so on. What I want to know is this : you got a 22 per cent, increase on revenue ; did that entail a 22 per cent, increase of working expenses in connection with that increase of business ? — I could not answer that questi(m, and it would be very difficult to say. I can only say that during the last four or five yeai's we certainly have been adding to our staff of operators, and this increase of business for the press would have been part of the cause. We have also had increases in other work. Ithink, imdoubtedly, some increase of charge has been created by that, but by exactly what percentage I could not say. It would not be so much as 22 per cent. 688. In connection with this return, •■ Statement " showing four weeks Ordinary and Deferred Ordinary •' International Traffic,' under " DefeiTed Ordinary," you show us on the outward traffic there is 52 per cent, of private business as against only 7 '27 per cent. of private business on the ordinary traffic. Does not that seem to show that by introducing the deferred ordinary rate you are really creating, if not an insati- able appetite, to use your own words, at any rate a desire for a private use of the cable, which did not have any means of satisfying itself before ? — As regards the private part, yes. What we have done is, that we have brought cabling within reach of a certain number of people who before could not afford it, and that, of course, is a great gain ; but, on the other hand, the whole of our revenue from deferred ordinary ha.s certainly not been gain. Some of it has. 689. I am not putting it as a question of gain ; I only put it as to whether you are not creating a class of business which did not exist before apparently, or that did not exist to any appreciable extent. You seem to be doing so ? — Yes. 690. Do you not think that with fui-ther reductions, perhaps not so great as that you give to press messages, but with a reasonable reduction below Is. 6d., that demand would be very widely increased in a country like Australia, which is so far separated from this country by ordinary mails ? — I do not myself believe that there is any veiy large source of supply, so to speak, to be tapped, but that there is a certain soiu'ce of supply is undoubtedly the case. The whole question with us is this — in connection with any proposal that is put before us of that kind, we recognise it would lie desii'able to bring cabling within the reach of as many people as possible provided we can do so without making the public pay for it. That is what it comes to. Aiiythiug we do which involves loss of revenue means this, that the taxpayers of tliis countiy and of the different Dominions have to make up the loss. We want to avoid that. We feel we are bound to avoid doing anything whicli in our opinion would have that effect. 691. Quite so. l)ut your little book " Via the Pacific " shows that that loss is a very rapidly decreasing one ; with all your reductions of the last few years you are approaching the point where the cable is becoming, in spite of the i-eductions you make, and in spite of unremunerative press business, a paying proposition ? — Yes. 692. In connection with the talked-of Atlantic cable, I see you give the estimated loss on the cable at 25,000,'. a year for the Atlantic portion of it. The Post Office gave us a loss of 2(1.000?. a year on present figures. Would your figures be later or earlier than theirs ? — My figures were taken two years ago. I am not sure when the Post Office estimate was made. I ought to say that it is extremely difficult to make any veiy definite estimate until you know exactly what is meant. I have never really quite made out how far those who advocated the Atlantic cable proposed it should be used for Canadian business as well as for Australasian business. I think our estimate was based on the suj^position that it was confined to Australasian business. 693. That estimate of yours made two years ago of a loss of 25,0007. is made on the assumption, I understand, that only the business passing over the Pacific cable would pass over the Atlantic cable ? — Yes. 694. That does not allow for any business coming from North America over the proposed new Atlantic cable at all ? — No, I do not think it did, if I remember right. 695. So far the matter is clear now. You have not any figures showing on your latest statistics of the business of the Pacific cable, what would be the loss on the Atlantic cable made up as for the last yeai\ It would be less I suppose than 25,0007. now * — If the cable was confined to Australasia ? 696. No. You have estimated a loss of 25,0007. per amium on the Atlantic calile based on figures in connection with the P,-icific cable of two years a;'o * —Yes. 697. Supposing you were to take yom- latest figures of the Pacific cable, about what would that loss show now ? — I do not think it would make veiy much difference, because, as a matter of fact, our increase of business is very largely on business that would not come across the Atlantic cable. You see a ve:y large proportion of our revenue is on American business. Our increase is greater on the American business than it is on the Eui'opean business. 698. You do not think there would be any gi-eat reduction of those figures if the latest figures of the E 3 38 DOMINIONS BOYAI. COMMISSION 12 November 1913.] Rt. Hon. Sir H. Peimbose, k.C.b., c.s.i. [Ovenea Communications ,■ Post and Telegraph. Pacific cable were taken ? — I do not tbiaik it would make veiy much difference. aw. In coiuiection with the deferred telegrams and week-end letters to Australasia, so far as you bare gone on both of those lines they show. I think, a very heavy increase since they began month by month. According to the Postmaster-Generars Report here I see that much use has been made of the defen-ed service, showing an increase since the first mouth of the senice of 120 per cent. I suppose we niaj- take those tigiu-es ascon-ect? — Yes. Undoubtedly the deferred tends to increase, and I have no doubt the week-eud cable lettei-s will. too. as they go on. 700. Both those lines are showing a very promising increase in business ? — Yes. 701. And both of them are remunerative to the cable, are they? — I should doubt whether the week-end cable letters were very remunerative. 702. Yo\i do not think the week-end cable is remunerative ? — No, I do not think Qd. a word, if you really jiut it to the test, would be, except for the pur- poses of tilling up spare time. 703. But you have 2,-500.000 words to fill up on the cable wliich might be tilled up by some of those messages •> — Yes. 704. (Chairman.) Canyon tell us how you distribute yom- traffic between the Western Union and the Com- mercial Cable Company ? — Fa-om this side each com- pany gets what traffic it collects for itself; they have theu- ovm offices and so on. Taking messages that are handed in at a post office, if they are routed by a pai-ticular company, they are handed to that company ; they have to go, but if they are not routed they are divided equally between the two. Then coming home we try to divide as equally as we can between the Commercial Cable Company and the associated com- panies. 70-5. If you had a large accession of traffie across- the Pacitic, would it improve your pusitiou for olitaining a lower i-ate across the Atlantic ? — No. I do not thiuk it would — you will probably hear that from the Atlantic people; but from what I leam from them, certainly the Wesfcem Union liave not the least wish to reduce rates. I tliink they feel thej' have gone a little too far ; if they had to begin again, they perhaps would not give so mxich as they have given for the last year or two. and for the moment I do not tliink they see theu- way to go further. The Atlantic cables are in this position, that they have enormous press>u-e for a few hours every day. aud then the rest of the time it is different. They have f.u- more cables across the Atlantic than are really necessary to carry on the business, if it was not that the most of the business has to go between 2 o'clock in the afternoon aud 7 o'clock in the evening. 706. You are capable of giving them business at their non-lnisy times ? — Yes. we could be useful to them in that way. .• ■ ■ i 707. If you had a considerable accession of that busines.-i to fill up your bad moments, ytiur non-peak loads. wi_)UJd there l)e any possibility c>f a lower rate i* — I thiuk they ai'e hampered to some extent by the law of their own country, which might make it difficult. 7ti8. About jtreferential rates, do you mean ? — Yes. the}' would very soon come up against some daugers there if they were t-o do much. 7oit. Ytiu appear to be in a peculiarly gi>od position with them in that you can fill up their troughs i* — Ye.s. I tliink our business ought to be rather useful to them. 710. (Mr. Garnetf.) I think. Sir Henry, you said that your service being night and day, and not synchronising between here and Amstimlia, was more or less cimtiuuous? — Yes. 711. If that is so, is not the Pacific cable in a Ixitter position for dealing with a large accession of ti-affic considering that night and day do not sjTichronise than it would he supposing night and day did synchronise and you had to rush it all into one very short period .'' I put the question for this reason, to ask you whether you cannot deal with that increased ti-affic, so to speak, Avithout a large increase iu ytmr staff? — Well, it is quite true that the difference iu time affects us in the way you have described ; still, if you take the traffic from Australia our ti-affic is not on that account distributed evenly over the 24 hours. Fi-om the Austi-alian end we have not a great deal of time to get things in. and we have to do it all in about a couple of houi's. If you take the end of the business day in Sydney, say 5 o'clock, that is 7 o'clock in the morning in London, and a cable sent off' from Sydney at 5 o'clock in the aftenn)on of Monday thej' want delivei-ed in the London office before 10 a.m. of the same day, or even before !', if they can. so that you see the whole of that business is crammed into two or three houi-s. From this end we have nioi-e leisui-e because, instead of the differ- ence Ijeing 10 hours, it is 14. so for a mess-age sent oft" at the end of the day Ave have four or five houi-s in which we could send it over the wires, and yet be in good time for the ojiening of the office in Sydney. Still, there are perioils of pressure and periods of slackness. 712. Taking it altogether, that does give you an advantage as compared with a cable which is working only between countries where night and day syuchi-onise ? — Certainly. 713. The increase of staff would not be so gi^eat iu yours as it might be in other cases ? — Yes, that is so. ■ Thursday, 13th November 1913. Mr. Stanley J. GodDAKD. European Representative of the Western Union Tek-gi-aph Company, called and examined. 714. {Cliairman.) Youarethe Eiu"opean repi-esenta- tive of the Westei-n Union Telegi-aph Company? — I am. 71."). AViU you kindly read the evidence you have been good enough to prepare ? — Yes. {The i/'itncsn read the folloiciiig statement : — ) I have been nominated by the Western Union Tcilegi-aph Conipanj' to tender its views on tlie parti- cular points on which it is miderstood the Commission desires information. The first of these, I imdei-stand. refers to the possibility of effecting a reduction of the ordinary rate for Australasian messages across the Atlantic : and the second, to the effect which a large access of Australasian traffic, such as it is suggested would be caused if a considerable reduction were arranged in the Pacific Cable Board's i-ates. would have in respect of such reductions. I would first of all de.siic to make it clear to the Commission that the policj' of the Western Unitm Telegraph Company is to give to the public the cheapest telegi-aph rates compatible with business jninciples with the view of extending the use of the service as widely as possible, as it believes that the best results can be obtained l>y a greatly extended use of the cable service: and as evidence of this belief I may point out that it was the pioneer of " week-end " and '• night cable " letters in connection with its cable system to America. It is. however, of opinion that under the existing conditions of the art of ocean telegraphy the present tharge for full-rate telegrams, so far as the Atlantic jiortion of the transit is concerned, cannot be reduced, having regard to the expense incurred iu carrying on an express ser\-ice such as that given, and of main- taining, repairing, and providing for the depreciation MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 13 Ntnemher 1913.] Mr. S. Ji GoDDAED. [Oversea Coinmunicatiotis : Post and Telegraph. of the very expensive cables, cable stations, and tele- graph equipment that are necessary in connection with the service, and also to the cost incurred in providing, from time to time, imj^roved apparatus, and in reseai'cli work in connection with such improvements. It does not anticipate that any increase in the amount of traffic which it might share with the Pacific Cable Board would have the effect of enabling it to reduce the .Transatlantic portion of the rate. The full-rate service is an expensive one to operate, a very large proportion of the words are in difficult codes in which mistakes are easily made, and the corrections (which are made without cost to the public) are costly. As the Commission is no doubt aware, the " week- end letter " service is now in operation between this country and Australasia. It was introduced on the 1st January 1913, so that up to the present we only have the results of some nine months' working ; and it is yet full early to gauge what the development of the service is likely to be when the facility is more widely known than it is at present ; and the extent to which it is likely to encroach on the full-rate sei-vice. It is quite possible that there may be. in the near future, a very considerable development of this traffic ; but if it is found that some further facilities are necessary in order to make the ser\'ice more popular, it might be po.ssible to airange for earlier deliveries at the terminal ends, and the Western Union Telegraph Company would be prepared, so far as it.s portion of the transit is concerned, to facilitate such an arrangement. It ivould also be prepared, so far as it is concerned, to consider the introduction of a " night cable " letter service to Australasia, on similar lines to -the service which exists between this country and America, if suitable aiTangements can be made ; the cable letter to be delivei-ed at destination, say, on the second day after handing in. It is understood that the Commission is desirous of knowing whether the capacity of the company's Atlantic caliles is such as to enable a large access of business (such as might be expected from the reduction of the Australasian traffic) to be dealt with. In this connection, I woidd say that the cables at present being operated by the Western Union have a, con- siderable unused capacity, and that this imused capacity is greatest at the hours when deferred week-end and night cable letter services would lie dealt with. In view of change.s and improvements which my company has now in hand, and which when completed will still further iucrea.^e the capacity of its caldes, it has no fear but that it will, at all times, be able to satisfactorily handle any increase of traffic which may develop. 710. How many cables acros.s the Atlantic do you operate ? — Eight. 717. How many are there altogether? — There are 8 of om-s ; ■") of the Commercial Cable Company ; 2 of the German Atlantic company, which rmi.s from America to Emden ; and 2 of the French comjjany, from Brest to America. 718. That makes a total of 17 ? — I take it from you ; I think it is. 719. And the full capacity of those cables is more than sufficient to deal with the present ti-affic Y — The full capacity is more than sufficient to deal with the present traffic, I shoidd think. I can only speak, of course, with reference to the cables we operate our- selves, and with regard to that 1 sho\ild like just to make this remark if the Commission would let me. When you are talking about the capacity of a caljle you have to be very careful as to what you mean. 1 heard some evidence Ijeing given yesterday before tliis Commission, and I was not quite sure when that point was being dealt with what the capacity of the Pacific cable was — what Sir Heni-y Primrose actually meant. 1 want to make my position quite cleai' with reference to that. The capacity may be the actual capacity of the cable for candying ordinary commercial messages on condition that those messages are handed in seiiatim and in equal quantities throughout the whole 24 hours. If that is what you mean by the capacity, you never get that condition in actual life, because the telegrams and messages come at infrequent inteiwals ; you get busy hours and rush hoiu-s and you get very slack hours. What I mean when I talk about the capacity of the Western Union Telegraph cables is this — that at the ])eak of the load I have always got sufficient space to carry more business if necessary. 720. Does that mean that even in the nish houi-s you have got capacity over and above the traffic you get ? — That is what I mean. 721. Even in the peak hours ? — In the rush hoiu's I have got capacity, over and above the traffic I get. to allow a margin for miffjreseen contingencies. 722. A fortiori in the non-rush hours? — A much stronger case ; I have got much more capacity then. 723. Could you tell the Commission this : Dividing the 24 hours into four periods of six hours, what approximately is your load factor in each of these periods ; 1 do not want to tie you down to an exact figm-e, but an approximation ? — That is i-ather a difficult question to answer, because 1 think that is driving me back into giving what I should call a " mean capacity" — a "mean" flow of traffic, and that might be very mis- leading. Supposing I were to say that my capacity during the 21 hours was only Ijeing used to the extent of 50 per cent. — and that may be r(jughly right — it need not necessarily convey a right impressi(in to the Commission because during the jieak of my load 1 may be getting such a lot of traffic that 1 cannot handle it properly. 1 think probably the best way for me to put it will be like this, if I say we keep a very constant watch on our traffic and see how it is going at the top peak load, and we are always lookmg ahead, so that if we see. for instance, that we ai'e getting within, say, 20 per cent, (using that as a formula) of our actual capacity we have then to begin to consider how we are going to increase our cables to can-y a still further load. We can increase this capacity by putting magnifiers on the lines which allow a larger amount of traffic to pass over the cables, or we can again (as we have in some cases done) increase it by shortening the spans of the cables, l>ecause the shorter the span, the greater the rapidity with which you can send your messages. 724. I understand that to be one preoccupation : another of your preoccupations is probably to fill up your non-rush hours ? — That is one of the problems we have had to set ourselves to. 72.J. Then you have a large unused capacity in the non-i-ush hours, and it pays you to take traffic at a lower rate ? — We take traffic at low rates which we do not have to handle immediately, at a price which we hope will pay for the actual handling of the ti-affic and allow something over to lie put towards depreciation. interest, and that kind of charge. 726. Have you a large unusued capacity for that non-urgent traffic ? — A very considerable unused capacity. 727. Which you are anxious to fiU up ? — That is so. 728. If one of your clients came to you and said •• We can give you another 1,000.000 words a year or " another 2.000,000 words a year of non-urgent •■ traffic," would it answer your purpose, and would you be able to take that at an exceptional rate ? — I do not think we should be able to take it at any lower rates. Are you talking of Australasian business, or of American business ? 729. Of Australasian. — The Australasian business is only about 2 per cent, of our total traffic ; so that if you were to increase the Australasian portion of oiu- business, if you were to doulile it, that is increase it by 100 per cent., it does not make a very bio- impression on our total traffic at all. 730. I am talking of a possible addition in the Australian traffic of l.OOO.OdOor 2,000,000 words a year, which I xniderstand you could easily handle, of non- urgent tiaffic ? — Yes. 731. On what terms would it pay you to take that traffic ? — At the present moment, as I have said in my proof, we are in this position. These new rates have only recently been started to America. The cheap American rates came into force at the E 4 40 DOMINIONS IJOYAL COMMISSION 13 Novetnber 1913.] Mr. S. J. GODDAJaD. [^Oversea Co-mmunicatidns : Post a)id Telegraph. beguming of 1912 ; and, as you know, the newest rates to Australasia came into force on the 1st January of the cun-ent year. Now, telegraphic traific is a traffic that develoi)8 very slowly, and we do not q\\\tc know where the new rates are going tii lead us. "We know this, that month by month the new rates have been eating into ovir full-rate tariff traffic, and we have not got what we might call a law as to how far that eating-up process is to continue, and at the present moment we should not be prepared to decrease the full rate, but the two proposals I have put forward in my pi'oof seem to us to be as far a-s we (looking at the Atlantic cable portion only) would Vie prepared to go at the present time until we have further informatitm. and have had fiu-ther experience of the i-ates in force at the present moment. 732. The point on whi'.'h you are not sure is how far the cheap-rate traffic is a divei'sion from the i>ld full i-ate and how far it is new ti'affic : is not that so? —That is so. 733. And that you are not j-et able to tell !- — That we ai-e not able to tell. 734. I want to put this suppositious case : Suppose you have an opportunity of olitaining new traffic, not a diversion of the old. from Australia to the extent of I.KOO.IXIO words or 2.00ll.()(t0 words a year, at Avhat rate would it jiay you to take it ? — The position we are in, I think, is this, that if you could give us traffic to the extent of 2.tH)0,<H)0 words a ye;U', we ^vill say to Australia, we will l:>e prepared to cany it as far as the West Coast of Ameinca for the same price that we would cari"y a message from London to the Pacific Coast. We now have a night -letter service from London to British Columbia, and we will be piepared. so far as the Australasian traffic is coneei-ned. to treat the Pacific Cable Board as an ordinary member of the public at British Columbia, and to hand over a message at the same charge we would make to an ordinary member of the public. 73-5. But there is the fact that they have to levy a further charge. Tour section is only a portion of the total transit y — Yes. 736. Can you not ti-eat them better than the ordinarj' pulilic ? — We might be getting into difficulties with the American Inter-State Commerce Laws. 737. Apart from legal i-estrietions, what I want to get at is what it would pay you to do ? — We do not think it would pay us to caiTy any service cheaper than we are carrying the American traffic foi\ 738. That is independently of any restrictions which the law may impose ? — Absolutely. 739. The two facilities j-ou indicate here as being proper to give are. tii-st of all, means for making the present defeiTed traffic and week-end traffic moie popular ? — Yes. 740. That means. I suppose, what is called the single rate, does it nut. making the week-end traffic delivei-able by telegram, and including all kinds of sei-vices ? — I wa.s not going quite so far as that, sir. What I meant was this, that at the present moment the telegi'am which is handed in here at or before midnight on the Satiu-daj' should be, according to my proposal, deliverable on the Monday instead of on the Tuesday as at present. 741. Deliverable by telegraph, or does that not concern you ? — That does not concern me ; that is a thing for the Pacific Board. I am only dealing, and I want to make that clear, with my Atlantic section, to, in some cases, as far as the Pacific coast. It would be a reduction of 24 ho\irs on the present delay. 742. That is to say. it would be a 36 hours' delivery i nstead of (io? -That' is so. 743. The second point on which you would be prepared tt) meet the public would be to consider the introduction of a night cable lettei- sei'vice to Australia ■ — Yes. im similar lines to the service between tliis counti-y and America. 744. Just tell us what that would be to Austi-alia ? ^I have not developed the tariif because that is the kind of thing I have to consult my partners, the Pacific Cable Board, about. What we should be prepared to do, or rather what we should pi-opose, would be this, that a telegram handed in on Monday wotUd be delivered in Austi-alasia on the Wednesday, that is the thu'd day, if you include all of them. We at present take telegi-ams in this country for America, and they are handed in to-day and delivered to-morrow, and go at the slack hoiirs of the night. We call it a night cable service. 74."). That goes at what percentage of full rates? — One-lifth. or between one-fifth and one-sixth. 74ti. That facility you would be prepared to ext«nd to Australian traffic ? — So far as the Western Union is concerned, yes. I might put it again, if you will permit me to do so. I will put it that we wdll be prepared to extend the present i-ates that we have from England or Great Britain to British Columbia, where this service already exists, to Australasia. 747. I should have thought that in the ease of Australian traffic you could have given greater facilities to Australia than to the terminal of British Columbia. Your rate to British Cohunliia includes two terminal rates ? — I think not. We send a message here from London, we ■\vill sa}-, and it has to go over the land lines to the calile. and it is re-transmitted at the cable station, and it is I'e-transmitted at some s\ibsidiai-y stations on the way and then Iws to work its way, being repeated once or twice right across the continent of America. The cost to us is exactly the same whether the recipient of the message is John Jones in British Columbia, or whether it is the Canadian Pacific Board there. 748. In your memorandum you make a point of the difficulty of ti-ansmitting composed cipher words ? — Yes. 749. Do you diffei-entiate lietween ciphei- words and dictionary words ? — I do not think that it makes very much difference in the long rim. Of com-se. some of the codes that are being composed now are most awfully diffic\ilt. According to the International Regulations the words should be pronounceable, luit the competition and one thing and another has made the pronoimceability of words take an extraordinary aspect, and words that are much woi'se to an Englishman than any Welsh words, for instance, are put into a code and are said to be pronounceable. Of course, when you get words with perhaps thi'ee " Is " and a " y "' together in a code word you are extremely apt, when using the telegi^aphic signals which are used for cables, to get mistakes. That means tliat when the message an-ives at its destination it cannot be vmderstood, and we have to telegraph back right away along the line to the place of origin to find out where the mistake is and I'e-transmit it con-ectly. That is part of the charge and that is one of the expenses of the code. 7-50. That does not leiid you to advocate the inser- tion between the cipher word on the one hand and the plain language message on the other, the intermediate dictionai-y cipher? — No, I shoidd not recommend that. 7.51. What economy of words does cipher give? We have had evidence to the effect that it was seven words, or six words, or five words in one ? — I should say in some codes it is very much greater than that. I was looking at a code, which was pi-oduced by a rreuchmau, the other day and he had gone as far as this ; that he was ciphering ciphers. 752. That is a double dictionary? — Yes; say that he had got a word that in one cipher would be a sentence of ten words, then he had ciphered that again so that the second cipher represented, perhaps, ten of these words, each of which repi-esented seven wt>rds in the first instance ; so that you might get 7*1 words repi-esented by one cipher wonl. The possibilities of that are almost infinite. 753. You think the estimate of six words for one is rather under than over the mark? — Considerablj' too low. 7.">4. In your non-urgent service do yon allow ciphei-s ? — No, we allow no cipher except on the full rate tariff. 755. So that even on your reduced scale the ordinary sender of a plain-language message is paying a much higher rate than the ciphei-er ? — He is paying a much higher i-ate in a sense, yes. 75C. That is to say he pays half the i-ate, but he sends a sixth, or less than a sixth, of the amount ? — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 41 13 November 1913.] Mr. S. J. Ctdddard. [Overeea CmitmiMifntioiin : Post and Telegraph. That may be so ; for instauce, two cipher words might possibly convey a hundred words. 757. Then the uuciphered message would be paying 25 times the rate of the ciphered.'' — Yes. 758. Tou also accentuate in one of your sentences " under the existing conditions of the art " : Am I right in taking that to imply that you expect rapid develop- ment and improvement ? — I do not know that I should go (juite so far as that, but I think I should be ([uite right in saying this, that we are constantly gettmg impi'ovements in telegraj)hic instruments and not only ■ in the instruments on the stations, but in apparatus such as this magnifier I was just speaking about. There are several of them. 759. What does the magnifier do ? — The magnifier puts additional force into the cable, if I may say so, so that the signals come out very much more clearly at the other end and can consequently be transmitted much more rapidly. 760. {Mr. Loriiner.) Of the 3s. a word which is paid for messages between the Far East and England sent by the Pacific calile you get lOf/., I think ? — I do not quite understand what you mean liy the Far East ; we deal with the West all the time. 7<il. The American cables get lOA, do they not-' — I have not got the make-up here, but I believe that is so. 762. I gather from your statement that is at present your iiTeducible minimum ? — -Tes. 7t)3. I think I remember — it is a long time ago — that messages were cabled between England and New York at Hd. a word? — The defeiTed messages ? 764. No. — Some time ago that was — yes. 765. A good many years ago H — Yes. 766. It was so long ago that I do not remember the details, but I suppose it was the result of some competition between comjianies? — It was the result of competition, yes. 767. How did that work out financially ? — It was a dead loss, they had to put the rates up. 7t>8. That really was a loss ? — It was really a loss. They put up the rate ; after tlie iid. tariff I think the rate was as high as ^2s. again, and then it was reduced to Is. !^(?., and then it was finally reduced from l.s-. 8d. to Is. 769. How long has it been Ls. •' — I tliink it has lieen l.f. since July 188S. 776. For 25 years ? — ^Yes. 771. Do you publish accounts? — We do; the Western Union does, but the Western Union accounts, so far as the cable system is concerned, do not show the cable system separately from the land line system. We are the biggest telegi-aphic concern in the world and we have something like 148,000 employees. 772. I asked whether you published accounts because I wanted to know (I do not want to pry into things which do not concern me) if you pubUsh yom- accoimts, whether this Is. lute pays you very well? — You have to take this into consideration, I think : I cannot give you any accounts of the Western Union showing the profits derived from the cable system alone, but the present arrangements have only been going on -since 1911. 773. I do not know that I follow you. What have you in addition to your cable system ? — Nearly the whole of the land lines of America. We carry 8o per cent, of the internal traffic of America. 774. I was referi'ing to the profits on telegi'aphy. You say you cannot tell us what the relation of your profit is to your capital ? — I do not quite know whether I have made it clear to you. The Western Union Company is the telegraphic authority in tlie United States ivr about 80 pier cent, of the whole of the land- lines system of telegraphy ; the accounts of the Western Union are published as one entity, so that the cable system is not divided from the land-line system. The whole of the capital is shown together, and I can show you 775. And the whole of the profits shov^^l together? —Yes. 776. So that while you might be making a huge profit on your land lines and a big loss on your cables or the reverse, there is nothing in yom- accoiuits to show tliat ? — That is so. H josiiu 777. I asked that question because, if you had piib- lished accounts, I thought I should like to know to what extent your profits would apparently admit of a reduction on this charge ? — I think I can help j'ou to a certain extent upon that, because the two companies whose cables we lease tii work acrtiss the Atlantic, that is, the cables of the Anglo-American Telegraph Company and the Direct United States, publish their accounts year by year, and they only gave up the working of those cables to ns in 1911. Now. the Anglo- American Telegraph Company pulilished its accounts, and in 1911, which was the last year it was working, it paid 3ff per cent, on its ordinary. 6 per cent, on its prefei-red, and lA per cent, on its defen-ed. 778. Have you three classes of stock there ? — Yes, the Anglo-American had three classes of stock. 779. I thought the prefen-ed and defen-ed woidd be the ordinary divided ? — No. they have got a curious arrangement. They had to raise money in the old days under difficult circiunstances. and they have got a preferred stock which stands out pai-amount. 780. That does not appear to be a very extravagant dividend ? — No. The Direct Company paid a 4 per cent, dividend with a bonus of 1 jjei cent., makuig 5. 781. Will you forgive me for asking — do I follow that these stocks represent cash paid down by share- holders, or is there any water in them ? — I do not quite know. It is always a difficult thing to know what is meant by water and what is meant Ijy whiskey. I do not know how far these acc(junts go back, but the original Anglo - American Telegraph Company was formed somewhere about 187tl. and I dn not know of my own knowledge or even Ijy hearsay liow its capital accounts were built up, but I should imagine there must be a certain amount of preliminaiy expenses and that kind of thing included in them 782. Just another question, yujjpose it were [los- sible to an-auge with you for a substantial reduction on the Pacific Cable messages, which largely increased the business carried over your lines, could you take 50 per cent, (jr 100 per cent, of the Pacific messages without inconvenience ? — Oh, yes, without the le:ist inconvenience and without inci-easing our facilities for handling. 783. Without increasing your staff ? — Not without increasing our staff — I mean without increasing our cable facilities. 784. So that the initial cost would be very trifling ? — It is a large proportion of the operating cost, because, of com-se, one man can only deal ^vith so many woi'ds an houi', and if you are going to give me double the number of words per hour I have to have two men to do it. 785. So that all you would require to pay extra woid<l be the operators ? — The operators and the attendant expenses. You have to provide more lighting if you increase your operators, and so on. 786. So that double the present Pacific business at the same rates would be very lucrative to you ? — No, I do not think it would be very lucrative ; it would I)e fairly lucrative if you were to double the full rate tariff. 787. What is the difference ? It is the difference between 10(Z. and Is., is it not ? — No. 788. I am thinking of your o«'n share of the' 3*., you know ? — We only get ihd. for the week-end cable. 789. I am speaking of general business. I aui speaking of the division of the 3s., and I understand that j'ou or the other companies, the land lines in tlie United States, get lOi/. ?— Yes. 790. Is not that as good a rate as you get for your inland messages ? — For my messages from here to America ? 791. Throughout Americii. — That rate is a very good rate ; I have no favilt to find with that. 792. Does it not follow, then, if you had a very large accession of that business without a proportionate increase of expenses it would be quite lucrative ? — If we could get it we would be very pleased to. 793. We are trying to reduce the Pacific rate \vith a view to mcrease, doulile or perhaps treble, the amount of matter sent across ; but while you would be very F 42 DOMINIONS ROYAT, COMMISSION : 13 Noremher 1913.] Mr. S. J. GrODD.\RD. [Oversea Comnuuiieations : Post and Telegraph . clad to cdiTv that, you cannot help tis to cheapen it ? — 1 should be" very pleased if you could get it. because if you can get it. when you have got it. or anywhere near it. I v/ill l)e very plea.sed to confer with you on the subject. 1 am very sceptical ; you have to get it iii-st. "94. Thei-e is only one other question I want tn ask you, and it doe.s not concern you more than any t>thfr company. In li.<!tening to all this evidence which we have hail both here and in Australia with reference to the cost of cables, 1 have felt this, that people who use codes generally have their- codes made up of words of ten letters as near as possible so as to get a.s much as possible in it ? — Yes. 79.J. But people Avho send private messages and have no opportunity of using a code have to use just such words as are necessaiy in their message, and they may be sometimes of two. or three, or fom- letters. That, of coui-se. ci-eates a difference lietween them and the users of codes y — Yes. 79ti. Has it ever occun-ed to any of you to charge per letter or per five or ten letters ? — Yes ; >>ut you see we get all this difficulty again, that dii-ectly you get a word that is not an ordinary word of a recogrnised languane the opei-atore immediately begin to make mistakes in sending it forward. If an operator ha.s to .send, we will say. such a message as " I ^-ill deliver " 200 chests to-morrow."" he can read that message, .and he does not want continually to go back on to the manuscript from which he is reading, and he can reel the whole of that message off upon his instniment withotit any difficulty. 797. That is if it is plain language ? — Yes. but directlv yo\i begin tt> make up a message into words of ten lettei-s yovi begin to introduce difficulties. 79S. I was i-ather thinking of counting the messages of private sendei-s in letters rather than words; for instance, it is pretty hard for a poor persim to have to pay o.i-. to telegraph " to."' and the equivalent of that mit'ht happen two or three times in a message if he has no code, and private people who send messages liave no code? — As far ;is the Western Union are concerned we have got a code we supply in all our offices, and anybody who goes into ime of our offices can make use of this code, and if he is seniiing it to one of the Western Union offices at the other end it can be de-coded there. 799. And you send that at the ordinai-y rate ? — At the full i-ate. 800. What does that code of yom-s include which yon have established for the benetit of yom- clients ? Does that include all sorts of domestic messages ? — I do not think I have ever studied it. but it is an ordinary code. 801. (Sir Alfred Bateman.) I think you are rather more optimistic aliout the increase in caliling than our witness yesterday. Sir Hem-j- Primrose ■• — I think perhaps, while 1 am expi'essing the views of the Western Union. I ought to say I am. Tlie Western Union believe that the caliles — and not only the cables, but the facilities of sending cables by telephone, and that kind of thing, are more or less the breath of life to the comniiinity. and our President is vei-y strong upon that. 802. So that you can give further facilities without the fear of depletiil|r yoiu- pi'esent lucrative business H Xo. I will not say that, sir ; we know we shall deplete it. 803. Diminish it a little? — We shall dejdete our full-jjaid traffic, bnt what we hope is that as time iroes on we shall make up Iwith that fidl-paid traffic and that we shall increase very much tlie lower-rate tiiiffit' as well. 80I-. You say in your precis, and it seems to be rather pessimistic : " It does not anticipate that any " increase in the amount of ti-affic which it might •' .share with the Pacific Cable Board would have the " effect of enabling it to reduce the Transatlantic " portion of the rite." Any large increase such as doubling would, would it not ? — 1 do not think so, because the traffic we can-y for the Pacific Cable Boai'd is only 2 per cent, of our traffic. 805. Is that 2 per cent, of your caljle tiuffic ? — Yes. So that if they were to increase the Australian traffic by 100 per cent., it would still only be ■!• per cent., and we could easily deal with that. 80ti. Sm-ely you have i-ather a large shce now. have you not. of the ;>;.■. to Australia ? — No. on tlie contrary. 807. What is it ? — I liave not the make-up ; I take it from the honourable memlier that it is lOd. 808. It is more than lOrf. on the full Ss. rate, is it not ?• — -No. 809. From British Columbia ? — Tlie 3,*. rate you are talking of is the rate to Australia. 810. And there is the Atlantic line to the Pacific ; there are thi-ee portions ? — Whatever we take there we take to Montreal : we only carry as far as Monti-eal. 811. You take lOd. to Montreal : from where ? — From London or anywhei-e in Great Britain to ilontreal. 812. And from Monti-eal to Lond<m ? — Yes. 813. You get i-ather more for the distance than a proportion, do you not ? — I do not know how the <listanee compares, but I should think not : the land line is not so expensive as the cable. Pei-sonally speaking I do not know mucli about the make-up of the tariffs, because it was liefore my time. 814. Do you contemplate that it is likely there will be another Atlantic ca1>le. either an Impeiial one or another private one ? — I am quite sure that when we get near using up our existing capacity and we find the traffic increasing, we shall put do^vn one if necessary. 81.5. How abovit a competing one — an Imperial one ? There is the Pacific one which is a joint Imperial one and there might be a joint Imperial cable across the Atlantic : how would that affect yoiu- tariff ? — I do not imagine it would att'ect it at all. 816. Of course if there was a reduction you would follow any reduction ? — I do not think it follows that we should. Supposing they were to reduce their rate for one Atlantic cable they would pi-etty soon get flooded with business, and the other business has got to be carried somehow ; they cannot carry veiy much on one cable. There are 17 cables working across the Atlantic now, and although one might be able to take some of the traffic, it would not take very much of it. 817. Have you considered that there will be the wireless competition still nearer ? — We are not good at prophesying, any of us. 818. You think it is no good to seek to prophesy yet ? — We like to prophesy when we know and we do not know yet. 819. (Mr. Campbell.) On the matter of these charges for cables and their allocation lietween the different companies, we have had it in evidence befoi-e the Commission that on a press message the Pacific Cable Board gets 3rf. out of 1\d. for carrying the message from Austi-alia to Montreal, and that the Atlantic companies get 4(f. for cariying it tlie balance of the distance ; is that correct ? — I do not think it is. I am sorry to say I have not got the make-up of the messages here. I did not know that was a point which would 1(6 discussed. 820. You could not say decidedly about the alloca- tion of the price of the mess;»ge? — No. 821. You say that the Pacific cable business yon get only constitutes 2 per cent, of yom- total tiaffic ; what shai e of the Pacific Cable Board's l)usiness would yoiu- company get ? Would yon get half of it ? — What happens is this. I cannot tell you what proportion we collect at this end: we collect, as Su- Henry Pi-imrose told you yestei-day, all the messages we can through our own offices here and we have got offices in the principal towns of Great Britaui. The Post Office. I believe, hand 50 per cent, to us and 50 per cent, to the Commercial Company of the traffic they receive, and of the incoming traffic from the other side the Pacific Cable Board liand us 5(1 per cent, and hand the Commercial 50 per cent. 822. That would mean you get 50 per cent, ? — Yes, roughly. 823. When you gave the figures I thought there would be some sort of arrangement in that way, and what struck me was that at present the Pacific cable is MINUTES »V EVIDENCE. 43 13 Nowmber 1913.] Mr. S. J. GoDDARD. lOcursen Coiamuuicafioiis : Post and I'ehijniph. carrying half of the full load, at least that was the evidence of Sir Henry Primro.se yesterday ? — Yes. 824. If one half of the Pacific Cable Board's present business constitutes only 2 per cent, of your traffic, then the full load of the Pacific cable line would be only 1/1 2th of what youi- eight cables are carrying aud your cables have a great deal of spare time ? — Yes. 825. Can you explain why that discrepancy should come in ? — Yes, qvtite easily. In a submarine cable, the longer the span of the cable from shore to shore the slower the tiunsmission of the message, and it is most extraordinai-y (it seems a kind of arithmetical progression sum really), if you have a cable, for instance (as we have now) to the shores of Nova Scotia, and it carries a certain number of words a minute or hour, as the case may l>e, by cutting that cable in on the coast of Newfoundland and so shortening the cable and putting in what they call a repeater station at Ne^vfoundland, and then transmitting the message again on to America you double the capacity of that oaV)le. S26. That is to say, two short cjibles would have a very much greater capacitj' than a cable twice the length ? — Yes. Another thing which has a bearing is the size of the core of the cable itself, whether you have a very thick piece of copjier wire running through the centre as a conductor or whether you have a thin piece. No two of our cables across the Atlantic have the same capacity ; they land in different places, some of them start from different places, and the core of each ca])le (I think I am right in saying, but I will not be sure) is different. 827. Roughly, on those figures we can show that the capacity of one of your cables is double that of the Pacific cable ? — I should not like to put it like that. As I explained to you before, when you are talking about the capacity of a cable you ai-e getting on to very dangerous ground. 828. I am speaking of the maximum safe load allowing for all contingencies of a possible rush of business, and allowing a fair mai-giu ? — I think then I cannot give the relation between our caliles and the Pacific cables, there are such a lot of factors to come in. I think we should have a larger capacity, because we have the advantage of a group of cables, aud directly you have a group of cables you get a larger capacity. They have only one belonging to the Pacific Cable Board. 829. Still there is a very great gain on the shorter cable, so far as capacity is concerned ?— Yes. 830. We coidd make no dedrittious from the load of the Pacific cable? — No, it would want working out. 831. In sending a plain language message, does the cable company use its own code and send that message in code ? — No, it sends the message as it is handed in. 832. Would it not be good commercial business to use a code H — -That has lieen contemplated from time to time, but you must remember that there is the expense of coding it and de-coding it and the chance of error. 833. But it would very much increase the capacity of your cables '■^ — I am told it is contrary to the International Convention. 834. Was there any reason why the International Convention should have objected to that ? — That is in the wisdom of the International Convention. I am afraid I could not give their reasons for the decisions they come to. 835. But it would, as a, matter of fact, enormously increase the capacity of the cables, would it not ? — Not enormously, anyhow. 836. Perhaps I might put it in this way : What is the proportion of plain-language message to coded message in your lausiness ? — I am told that about 80 per cent. wt)uld be coded. 837. So that the plain-language messages would not be very material ? — No. 838. (Sir Bider Haggard.) You told the Chairman about those week-end and night messages, and you also told him about the wonderful amplification and the great ingenuity shown with regard to codes when used in telegraphy I-' — Yes. 839. I think you have mentioned that by one of those amplifications as much as 10*1 words could Im got into a single word 't — I did not go quite so far as that ; I said perhaps 70 to 100. 840. By means of a douljle code ? — Yes. 841. Does it not strike you. under those circum- stances, that the allowance made to the plain-hmguage week-end and night messages is really not so great after all ."—Yes, I think it is. 842. K I sent a week-end message : " Expect me " by the boat which sails after the ' Nubia ' ; I shall ■• arrive in London," and so on, that makes up 19 words, or whatever it may V>e, and there might be one code word which would say all that ; and what I am submitting with respect is that after all the advantages are not so real as they seem to those who send in plain language ? — 1 think you must rememljer, sir. that we are dealing (when you are talking of the non-coded telegrams) with about 20 per cent, only, and you must also bear in mind that the coded messages are all full- rate messiiges which go express all the way through. These other messages are subject to delays. The cost of the opei'ating. t)f course, is rather cheaper, even with one code woi'd. than it is with 19 ordinary words. On the other hand, you have a very large number of repetition's, that is to say, mistakes in a code tele- gram, which means sending the telegram twice ovei- from its office of origin. You must also bear this in mind that when you come to the counting and to the collecting and delivery of the messages, the costs are the same ; the message is a message, and has to l:)e delivered, whether there are 19 words or one. 843. Excuse my interrupting for one moment. Do you have the system of posting week-end messages i* — We either post or telegraph them. 844. The cost of posting is only popping it in a box ? — And the penny postage. 845. Forgive my interruption H — 1 think that finishes it, sir. 846. You are not of opinion that on the whole these advantages given to these cheap plain language messages are more apparent than real, when you bear in view what you can send by means of a code message ? — No, I think they are very real indeed, and I think that is borne out by the use to which the service has been put. 847. Do you think the cable companies might be disposed to do something in the line which Mr. Lorimer mentioned, that is to say. to allow these words to have a length of ten letters; for in.stance, somebody wants to cable : " The most of the letter." and you might get " The most of" into one ten-letter word H — I am afraid I shoidd not like to give an opinion upon that. I do not feel sufficiently technical to be able to give an opinion, and in a case of that kind you have to make an arrangement which has to be fiilh'u in with by the Governments at both ends. 848. I understand, and I do not want to press that. I will put it in this way : that it would not present any great difficulty woidd it. or cost, or make it veiy much more difficult to telegraph, to run such words as " The most of" together into one word? — Yes. it would add considerably to the difficulty of transmission, because if you are transmitting fnmi here to Australia, say "The most of." that is quite iuteUigilile to the telegraph clerk who is dealing with it, but if you ilivide that word up int<i "themo" or some such word as that, then by the divisit>n into another word it is making a kind of hieroglyphic. 849. But I did not suggest that ; I suggested running the words together, not cutting them into lengths? — If you were to do what Mr. Lorimer suggested, as I understood his suggestion, it was to run them together so as to make conventional divisions with ten letters in each, and you would consequently 1)6 breaking up and regrouping ytiur letters. 850. I quite see your point, although it is not quite the same as I had in my mind ; I am obliged to you tVir your view on the matter. 1 gather that you look with a more chtiei-ful eye on the possiliility of cheapen- ing telegraphic cable commimication with distaat F 3 44 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : U November 1913A Mr. S. J. GoDDARD. [^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. places than did om- esteemed witness yesterday ? — I think that is so. 851. (Mr. Tatlmc.) With regard to those week-end messages with Australia, whieh you seem disposed to encoui'age as far as you can. the facility you say you are inclined to go in for is earlier delivery ■•— Yes. 852. But you are not inclined to do anything in the way of the chai-ge y — Not at present. 853. Have you considered at all that you could reduce the minimum number of words ? — That is the same as reducing the charge. 854. Have you considered that ? — Yes, and at the present moment we do not see our way to contemplate it. You must remember we have (inly had this going on for nine months, and we do not know where the sei-vice is to lead us. 865. If you were disposed to do that at the present moment, could that be carried into effect \vithout the concuiTence of the other Atlantic cable companies ? — The Western Union is the only Atlantic cable company Avhich gives the week-end service. 856^ You do do things on your own account then ? — Yes, we do ; we and the Pacific Caljle Board together have instituted this service and the other Atlantic cable companies have not. 857. And if you were disposed to reduce that mini- mimi. it could possibly be done ? — If we were well disposed to it and the Pacific Cable Board concun-ed. S5S. {Mr. Garnett.) Have you contemplated making an inclusive charge, including the telegraphing of the week-end letter, which is now charged extra, from the terminal points in Australasia, or is that a matter which would come before the Pacific Cable Board ? — That is a matter for the Pacific Cable Board. 859. (Mr. Coviphell.) In reply to the Chairman you gave some illustrative figiu-es of what might be done in the way of saving by means of coding messages, Ijut could you give the Commission auy figures as to the numlier of words that would be saved in ordinary coding by ordinary business people ? — I am afraid I cannot. 860. You could not say whether it was 4 to 1 or 3 to 1 ? — No ; such a lot of these fij-ms have jjrivate codes of their own. and they go to an extraordinary expense. A firm will spend from 10,000/. to •10.0()()l. in making a code for themselves, because they know they are going to save that. 861. So that you really could not say? — No; we have lots of cases where we do not know how many words are included in a code word. Friday, 14th November 1913. Sir John Denison-Pender, K.C.M.G., Vice-Chairmau aud Managing Dii'ector of the Eastern Telegraph Company, Ltd.. Managing Director of the Eastern and South Afi-ican Telegraph Company, Ltd,, and Director of the Eastera Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company, Ltd., and Mr. William HiBBEEDiNE, TrdSic Acc<mntaut to the Eastern Telegiaph Company, Ltd.. the Eastern and South African Teleo'raph Company, Ltd.. aud the Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company, Ltd., called and examined. 862. (Chairman.) Sir John. I think you are Chair- niau of the Easteni Telegraph Company. Limited, the Eastern and South African Telegraph Company, Limited, and the Easteni Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company. Limited — the three allied companies ? — I am Vice-Chairman of some of them, aud Managmg Director of the Easteni, and have some authority in the others. 863. You appear to-day to give us iufoimation regarding the ijuestions of poli<^y. and Mr. Hiblierdine will give us informati<m on iiuestions of accounts? — Mr. Hibberdine will deal with tlie traffic. 864. Perhaps the most convenient coiu-se would be if you would kindly read your statement or your letter to the Commission"?— It is tin- letter beginning : ■• After paying a fair dividend " 865. The letter of the 16th October first, perhaps ? Thv vitiiesx read thr /olloirini/ leiter : — ■• The Easteni Telegraph Company. Limited. " The Eiistern and South African Telegraph Company, Limited. •' The Easteni Extension Austi-alasia and China Telegraph Company, Limited. " Electra House. Finsbury Pavement, " London, E.C. ,. gi,. •' 16th October litlo. •■ I BEG to inform you that your letter of the 5th ultimo* lias been duly submitted to the Boards of the Easteni and Easteni Extensiim Australasia and China Telegraph Companies, and in reply I have to state that the policy of these companies on the question of cable rates to and from Australasia and other j)arts of the world has always been to reduce rates whenever experience has shown that the reduction is likely to produce sufficient new traffic to recoup the initial loss and cover the extra cost of woi-king, and we cannot do better than refer you to the various Standard Revenue Agreements made with that object. The Staixlard Revenue Agreement of the 14th April IHOO is a ca.se in lioint, whereiu it is provided that the rates between Europe and Australasia shall be reduced automatically in accordance wth the growth of traffic. The rates between Great Britain and Australasia were reduced from is. iW. to 4.S. in li'OO, to 3s. (id. in 1901. and to 3s. in 1902. At the end of 1902 an opposition cable * JJot printed. was established i-ia the Pacific, the coiisec|uence of which was that any chance of a fm-ther reduction to 2s. 6f/. provided for in the agreement was indefinitely postponed. It may be pointed out that had tlie interests in the two routes, vi'i Easteni and oid Pacific, been identical, the increase of traffic with Australasia would have automatically l)rought about a reduction to 2s. 6d. per word on the- 1st .lanuary 1911, and possibly a year before that date. ■' 2. The Companies are prepared to meet the wishes of the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission, and have appointed as reiiresentatives to give evidence on their behalf myself and the traffic accountant to the three companies. Mr. W. Hibberdine. " 3. With reference to the statement that there exists a poor load factor on nearly all submarine cables these Companies desire to point out that the Eastern cables are in a totally different position to those of the North Atlantic, these latter cables being piuctically confined to the transmission of con-espondence between the United States of America and Europe, almost the whole of which is, owing to the difference of time, transmitted within a vei-y few hours of the day. The Easteni Companies have to ti-ansmit traffic not only between Europe and Australasia, the Far East, and South Africa, liut also a large amount of traffic with Spain, Portugal. Azores. (libi-altaiv Morocco, Malta, Greece. Turkey. A:c. In some cases the cables are fully occupied during the whole of the 24 hours, and to maintain efficiency it is necessai-y to resen-e a consider- alile amount of cable-carrying capacity to i:)rovide for interruptions and for sudden iiishes of traffic. •• 4. If there be no exceptional breakdown, it is possible with the present system of working for some of the cables to be closed during jiortions of the 24 hours. If. however, the cables were to be kept open, in order to cany traffic at unremunerative rates, the resene capacity it isneces.sary to maintain against inten-uptions would be absorlied. and the general telegrajjliing public would suffer considerably in the carrying of their ( irdinary coiTespondence. It would also necessitate an increase of exjiert staff', which is not always easy to obtain, and the salaries, travelling exisenses, housing, &c.. of which would absorb auy possible profit. " 5. With regard to the suggestion that there should be closer co-operation between the various cable and telegraph systems connected with Australasia, these MINUTES OF EVIDENCK. 45 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pendeb, k.c.m.g., aud Mr. W. HiBBEEDINB. [Overfiea Communications : Post and Telegraph. coiiipanie.s have on several occasions stated that they are perfectly willing to more closely co-operate with the Pacific Cable Board, provided fair arrangements for both parties can be arrived at. " 6. With regard to further reductions for full i-ate messages, we would refer you to our remarks in the fii'st paragraph of this letter, with reference to Standard Revenue Agreements. " 7. As regards defen-ed and weeli-end messages, we would refer you to the letters which we have addressed to the G( ivernments of Austi-alasia and South Africa on the 1st Januai-y 1913* ; unfortunately the suggestions of the companies have not been favourably received by some of the Gr)vernment8 concerned. ■' S. The tariffs of these companies for pi-ess messages are ah-eady so low (vide schedulet attached) that any further reduction is impracticable. Besides which, an arrangement has been made with Reuter's Telegram Company for the circulation of an Imperial news .service, which practically gives the news of the world to all communities in the Far East, both large and small, for a comparatively trifling amount. At places like Zanzibar and Mauritius, the actual cost to the inhabitants is well under a penny per word, and in South Africa and India the cost per word to each individual paper is well under a tentli of a penny per woi'd. " 9. The reduction on deferred messages in plain language is one half of the charge for ordinary tele- grams, and this is in accordance with the arrangements made between the various countries in the International Telegraph Union. " 10. As regards other improvements in the service, we are continually experimenting vrith new instruments, in order to increase accuracy and speed in the trans- mission of telegrams. We have recently commenced working direct between London and Alexandria, and we trust this long-distance signalling will be fvu'ther extended to other parts of the system. In addition, the companies are continually spending large sums out of their reserve funds to increase the facilities for telegi-aphing, so that during the busy hours of the day merchants shall receive their messages with regularity and despatch. During the current year alone, the companies have spent, or will spend, an amount of almost two millions of money." S6H. Is that exclusive of new lines ?— No, that is including the new lines which are now being laid. " 11. With regard to the route via Pao, commonly called the Turkish route, the tarifE by this line has for 40 years been less than by the route viil Eastern-Suez or vid, Teheran. At the Telegraph Conference at Rome, in 1871, it was arranged that owing to the inferiority of the Turkish route it should be allowed to have a cheaper rate than the other two routes. The ac^tual amount of traffic carried vi<l Fao is now about one-fourth. of one per cent, of the t<ital amount of traffic. " 12. The question of carrying day cable letters to the Par East cannot he rt)ntemplated and the com- panies feel strongly that deferred messages at half- rates give the public who send social telegrams every advantage that can reasonably be claimed. " 13. As to the suggestion that dictionary code words might be allowed in deferred messages, we would point out that this would do away with the basic idea of deferred telegrams, and would be equivalent to the reduction of all their tariffs by one-half, which is a propositi<in the companies are not prepared to entertain. It may be pointed out that the difficulty of (lcci<ling which are dictionary code words and which arc not has been found from the experience of the past 10 years to be insuperable. " 14. With regard to the delivery of week-end telegrams on Tuesday morning, we beg to refer you to our proposal of the Ist January 1913, from which you wdl see that these Companies from the first advocated the delivery of these telegrams on the Monday. This letlL'V is [iriiiteil on |>. IC. t Not [irintrd. " 15. As regards South Africa, we beg to enclose a statement showing the i-eceipts fnim this traffic since cable comnnmication was established, from which you will see that although the company reduced the rate in 1903 to 2s. 6d. per word, the present receipts are more than 100,000?. less per annum than they were in that year, which was the fii-st year after the Boer war. '• I am, &.C. " E. J. Harding, Esq., " J. Denison-Pender. " Dominions Royal Commission." 867. I think if you would read the statement beginning " After paying a fair dividend " ?— Tes. " After paying a fair dividend to their shareholders aud giving the telegraphing public a share in the profits by reducing the rates, the policy of the Eastern and its associated companies has from their inception been to put as much sui-plus revenue as possible into the resei-ve funds, so that the original cables have been kept in a good working state by repau-s and renewals, and funds have been provided for duplications aud extensions. " This policy has resulted in the cost per knot of the cables owned by the companies, as represented by the total capital expended (ordinary, preferred, and debentures), being reduced to the following figures : — £ " Eastern and Eastern and South African Companies - - - - - 12.5 " Eastern Extension Australasia and China Company - - - . 118 ' ' as compared with similar amounts for other com- panies and administrations, viz. : — £ " French Atlantic Company - - - 186 " German Atlantic Company - - 233 •' Great Northern Company - - - 202 " Pacific Cable Board - - - . 217 " These figui-es represent all property of the Com- panies, including cables, ships, land, buildings, and mstruments." 868. That is the net amount in your liaiaucc sheet after writing this do^vn ; that is to say, you have been able to ^vi-ite down half the cost, apparently.' — No, that is the total cost. 869. That is to say, you laid them cheaper than the others ? — Well, yes, some of theu^ are cheaper and some may be dearer, but taking them as a whole, and the amount we have spent on them, aud all that sort of thing, it has reduced them practically to this figm-e of 125Z. 870. The point I want to ascertain is this, whether that was your original cost which was lower than other companies, or whether you have reduced the amount standing in your balance sheet by subsequent ^vriting down ? — (Mr. Hibherdine.) Not the origin;il cost ; it is the actual anioimi. at which tlie cables stand in our balance sheet ; that is to say, it is not taking into account the amount of reserve we have in hand at all ; it is simply taking the total mileage of the cables with the total amount of capital. {Sir John Pender.) Which at present exists. 871. That has been arrived at by writing down from your profits, has it not? — (Mr. Hibberdiiie.) It has Ijeen arrived at by laying new cables and repairs out of reserve fund. 872. It comes to the same thing ." — Perhaps it does. (S'(V John Pender.) " It is solely by this means that the companies I represent have been enalilod to reduce their tariffs by increasing their carrymg capacity out of surplus revenue. If any new line was laid to India, the Far East or Australasia, it could not live at the present rates on the capital that would be required to be raised." 873. I wo\ild just like to ask you there ; what is the cost of laying a new line per knot ? — It depends upon the part, of the world in which the cable is laid and the length of the cable to be laid. A cable of 1,200 miles compared with a cable of 2,400 mUes could be laid at a very much smaller cosr. per knot for the same 4li DOMINIONS UOYAL COMMISSION : ]i November 1913. ^ >Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.c Mr. W. HiBBEEDINE. iiid lOreracii Cviii iiiiinical/oiis Fost and Telegraph. capacity. I think I may give you something which will .show it ; it i.s very much the same thing as a ten-kufit ship being made as compared with a 12 or 14-knot ship ; it begins to cube itself. 874. The inci-ease of cost increases as the cube of the distance ? — Practically it is so ; the t-oppcr required is very much greater in the long-distance cable and the gutta-percha must, so to speak, have control of the copper. Therefore the gutta-percha has to be very m-ich heavier, and the gutta-percha and the copper are the two most expensive parts of a submarine cable. 87-5. Therefore the shorter your sections the cheaper the cost ? — Exactly, very much cheaper. 876. Will you now finish the statement you were i-eading ? — Yes. " In laying additional cables for inci-eased traffic, it would have been less expensive for the companies to have laid the additional cables over the same routes as the original caWes, as by so doing a great saving in the cost of stidf, maintenance ships, and other expenses would have been effected, but in order to give as many distinct routes as possible, so tliat in time of war or political distm-bance there would be less chance of total inten-uptions, the Companies have always followed the policy of duplicating and triplicating their cables by different routes. '• As an example, I may mention the route to the Cape cia Ascension, which involved the opening of two new stations at Ascension and St. Helena, and an extra maintenance shii^, whereas it would have been far less expensive for the Companies to have duplicated their lines between Aden and Durban, where stations abeady existed and a cable ship was already stationed. ■' In the case of Australia, it would have been less expensive for the Companies to have laid duplicate lines between Madras, Singapore, and Port Darwin, than to have laid the cables from Durban to Adelaide, involving expensive new stations at Cocos, Rodriguez, Perth, and Adelaide, and the purchase and maintenance of a large additional repairing steamer." 877. Then I would ask you to read yoiir letter to the Australian Government of the 1st January which you mention in yom- fii-st letter ? — {Mr. Hibhcrdiiie.) Tliat is ahout the week-end telegi~ams ? 878. Yes. — (Sir John Pender.) This is the letter of the 1st January 1913. {Beading the same.) " The Eastern Telegraph Company, Limited. " The Eastern and South African Telegraph Company, Limited. '• Sir, " 1st January 1913. " In further reference to your letter of the Kith idt., and prf^vioiis coiTespondence, I am directed to inform you that these companies have been in com- munication with the Secretary of the General Post Office on the subject of extending week-end cable letters to the Continent of Europe, and to state that it would then be necessary to have the same system of charging for all parts of the world. '• The Companies desire, if possible, to discontinue the present system of charging additional sums on week-end cable letters for outpayments beyond their cable stations, more especially iu territories of such large extent as the Union of South Africa and Aus- tralasia, where it places the coast towns at a much "reater advantage compared with those in the interior, and we understand this view is also taken by the Commonwealth of Australia. •' This would have the effect of reducing the niunber of in-efixes to bo transmitted to one oniy, which is very desirable. •■ We should be prepared to recommend the Boards of the Associated Companies to agree to a scheme somewhat on the following lines. •■ The clmrge for week-end cable letters to be on the following basis : live words to be transmitted for the charge of one ordinary word, such chai'ge to include outpa^nnents. For instance, between Great Britain and Avistralia the charge would be 3.9. for five words, and out of Uie 3s. the Companies woidd pay the General Post Office the charge for one word, viz., \d., and the '• Union of South Africa •' India " Straits Settlements - " Hong Kong " Australasia Oommonweiilth of Australia 'ul. Tins would place the tariff's of the Government Admininistrations and the Companies on an equal footing. •• We shoidd prefer a minimmu of 20 words, which we consider is an easier charge to calculate than •2-i words. ■• We should also prefer to deliver telegrams on Monday instead of Tuesday, as we ai-e afraid that befoi-e long artifii;ial delay of messages at the station of destination will lead to abuses. •' The counting of week-end cable letters to be imder the same rules as those for defeiTed telegrams. " We may also inform you that we have made the necessary arrangements to introduce week-end cable letters with the Straits Settlements and Hong Kong, and will do so when the new reduced tariff's ai-e put into operation, and that in October last we offered to introduce the system of week-end cable letters with India, and are awaiting a reply from the Indian Government. •• The minimum charges would therefore be as follows : — .S-. d. 10 8 11 4 "I Pi-oposed reduced 14 0/ tariffs. 1-2 (I "We are sending similar communications to the High Commissioner of the Commonwealth of Australia and the Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board. " I am, ifcc. '■ W. HiBBERDINE. " The Secretary, " Traffic Accountant. " High Commissioner, Union of South Africa. " (Also to Commonwealth of Australia and the Pacific Cable Board.)" 879. What was the result of that letter ;•'— There has been a good deal of discussion about it. Imt nothing definite has been settled; we hold different views. (Mr. Hihbrrdiiic). A meeting was held at the General Post Office of all parties concerned, and since then we have heai'd nothing about it ; there have been one or two letters. ■ 880. Can you apply yoiu' jn'oposals there without official sancti(.)n or not ? — {Sir John Pciidcr.) No, we cannot in all cases. 881. As to that particular proposal of yours, which seems a very satisfactory one to the j^iiblic, is it impos- sible ior jou y — It is impossible for us. because, to l)egin with, we have to get the sanction of India to a certain part of it, and then we must have a general l^rmciple right awiij through. 882. As far as regards Australia, what prohibits- ? — We should have to arrange with the Pacific Cable Board ; it would never do for us to be doing one thing and the Pacific Cable Board another. 883. Do you know at all if they are agreed on that proposal ? — I thmk there is a slight ditt'erence of opinion between us as to the number of words. (Mr. Hibherdinc.) A very strong difference ; there are two differences of opinion. The Pacific Cable Board wish to retain the four distinct classes of traffii^ in the case of the week- end telegrams ; we only want one. The Pacific Cable Board strongly oliject to deli\(>r on Monday as we wish to do. {Sir Joliii Peiidi-r.) And the number of words. 884. Monday and Tuesday is clear. What are the four diff'erent classes of traffic ? — {Mr. Hibberdine.) At present a man can send from a calile office to a cable office ; that is a direct message. He can send by post from all places in Great Britain to our cable offices and then liy wire. He can telegraph from the Post Office by paying (ii/. for the message to our cable office and then by wire. He can do one of those three thing.s and wire out to Australia, and luive it posted from t)ur office in Australia, or he can have it wired from our office in Australia. There are four diff'ei'ent prefixes : — T W T. for messages telegraphed all the way, including those delivered by Company; T W P, for messages telegraphed all the way to calde terminus and posted MINUTES OF KVIDEXCE. 47 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g. Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. ;iiid ^Oversea Communicatioics Post and Telegraph. to destination ; P W T, posted to cable station and telegraphed all the re.st of the way, including those delivered by Company ; P W P. sent by post to and fi'om eaVile termini. 88.5. And you prefer to simplify and telegraph in all cases right tlii'ough ? — Certainly. 886. Do you consiiler that i-eform would be of great convenience to the public? — It would ; it would be of gi-eat convenience to us and would simplify the work of our oounter-clerks in dealing with the public. 887. So that it would be a benefit both to the transmitting companies and to the public ? — Certainly. 888. Have you a map there of your lines to Australia ? — Yes. (Sir John Pender.) We have maps* which we can hiuid round which would facilitate matters (hatuliiig in the mtme). 889. It would be of use to us if yovi coidd e.xplain in which way your Australasian traffic in each direction generally goes ? — [Mr. Hihbenh'iie.) The bulk of the traffic between Australasia and Europe passes normally vii'i St. Vincent and South Africa ; but as this route is liable to lie temporarily intenupted in the laud line between Cape Town and Durban, the route via Gibraltar, Egypt, Aden, Zauziliar and Durban is also used to a very consideralile exteut. 89(J. (Mr. Lorimer.) What are the dotted lines in the map H — (Sir Jolin Pender.) Projected cables. 891. Are any of them under construction ? — Yes, they are all under construction, and will be laid before May next. 892. (Chairman.) The interruptions on that route which involve sending by other routes are mainly on the land line in South Africa ? — (Mr. Hihberdine.) On the land line, and that only temporarily, one hour, one hour and a half, or two hours, something of that kind. 893. Are you considering any means for diminishing or avoiding them ? — Yes, we have made arrangements to put an extra relay station ; we have one relay station between Cape Town and Durban at present, and we are going to insert an additional one. We have made arrangements with the South African administration to do that. 894. When those arrangements are complete the- large mass of your traffic in ordinary times to and from Australasia will go I'ound the Cape ? — It may do, but of course we have other routes, and we divert the traffic in accordance with the circumstances of the day. 895. They are regarded rather as stand-bys? — No, most jjrobably when our Aden-Colombo cable is laid we shall send the majority of the Australian traffic by that route. 896. That will be laid when ? — In three weeks' time. 897. Then the Colombo to Penang line ?— That is already laid. 898. Those are tlie two missing links of your Red Sea-Coloml)0-Penang-Australasian route ? — -Yes, there only remains to be laid after the Aden-Colomlso line is finished one additional cable in the Red Sea, and the cable from Penang to Hong Kong. 899. So that, after that is done, and your land line in the Cape is also improved, you will have two very largely improved means of communication ? — Cer- tainly ; we shall have two very good meaiLS of com- munication between here and Australia. 900. What can you tell us regarding the load factor on those lines ? — With regard to the total capacity of the lines, or are you I'ef erring to the Australian Hue only? 901. I am not referring at all to the load factor on your Straits Settlements o)- Chinese lines or Indian lines. — It all affects the traffic. 902. I only wanted it brought in so far as it affects the Australasian question. — With regard to the question of the total capacity of the Din-ban- Adelaide - Perth - Cocos line, it may be pointed out that the only part of this line used exclusively for Australian traffic is between Adelaide and Cocos. The line between Cocos and Durban is used very largely in "' Nul. i'<-'[jrn.iiK:c:tl. the event of interruptions for traffic with the Sti-aits Settlements, the Dutch Indies, and the Far East. Provision also has to be made for faulty cables, whicli although not actually interrupted, frequently necessi- tate a reduction in the normal working speed, and render duplex working impossible. Cases also occur when it is only possible to work in one direction. Two other important factors are lightning and bad weather. It also frequently occurs during the bad lightning storms which occur in the tropics that the cables at the stations where the lightning is most acute have to be i)ut to earth often for some hours, and that causes diversion of traffic. As instances of l)ad weather pre- venting the repair of interrupted cables, we might mention that the Aden to Bombay two cables were interrupted for 74 and 37 days, in 1912, owing to the monsoon season. 903. (Sir Rider Haggard.) Broken, do you mean ? — Yes. they coiUd not be repaired because of the weather. Then we had one the other day outside Porth- cuniow. where owing to bad weather the ship was Standing by for 28 days before it could be repaired. 904. (Chairman.) Will you now go on? — With regard to the Dui'ban-Cocos cable we consider that there is practically no spare capacity at the present moment as it is always liable to be called upon to cari-y a very large additional traffic owing to inteiTuption in the various points I have already mentioned. One instance which occurred last December may be given : the line was worked up to the total capacity it could possibly caiTy for five or six days. 905. That i.s both urgent traffic and non-urgent ? — Yes ; that is to say, we sent 262.000 letters per day, or equal to a yearly amount of 300 working days of 78,000,000 letters, or 8,000,000 words. You asked a question with regard to the capacity of other routes between Durban and London. Via St. Vincent we have a capacity of 9,500,0(10 words, and between Durban and London via Aden and Zanzibar we have a capacity of 6.000,000 words. 906. (Mr. Campbell.) When the new cable to Colombo is completed that condition will be con- siderably altered ? — Considerably altered, but naturally we find we are f idl up practically with our caldes during hiusy times of the day, and therefore we have to spend this extra money to increase oui- carrying capacity. 907. (Chairman.) When you have the new lines going can you make a forecast of the amount of free available capacity which you will have either for urgent or non-urgent business ? — I am afraid not ; we do not think we have any too much capacity even when we have the Aden-Colombo cable laid. 908. In other words you consider your present load factor and your load factor when these new lines are completed satisfactory ? — Satisfactory ; we have a large margin, undoubtedly, but we want that large margin to give proper efficiency and in case of sudden ruslies of traffic. Traffic does not come in regularly ; there are not the same number of messages every day ; some days the number is double what it is on other days — we have the wool sales iu Australia or S(juth Africa, for instance. 909. Your position is entirely different from that of the Atlantic Companies and also the Pacific Company ? — Absolutely. 91(J. In the sense that j'on are not looking for non- urgent traffic in the same way that they are ?^No ; we take a certain amoinit of it which we can manage. 911. We would like to have your opinion on the question of modern ciphers and the amount of economy which they afford to the sender : what is the proportion of a cipher message compared with a plain language message? — -(Sir John Pender.) It is imjjossible to say; a good code will almost work up to anything. I should say there is hardly any limit to what you can code. Long phrases now go as one word in a very efficient code. 912. Can you give any general propoi-tion ? We have heard various figures given, 6 to 1, 7 to 1, up, I think, to 70 to 1 ? — I should say certainly not less — ■ I am speaking offhand, rather — but I should say cer- tainly not less than 25 to 1. (Mr. Hibberdine.) It F 4 IS DOMINIONS ROVAL C0M.MI8SI0N' I 1-1 November 1913.] Sir J. Denii'ON-Pendeb, k.c.m.g., and Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. [^Oversea Communications • Post and Telegraph. woxild depend entirely what traffic was affected. With Australia and India the codes have arrived at very great perfection. With European traffic the codes are not so perfect ; consequently the proportion of words would not be so large. 913. We are principally now concerned with A-ustnilasia ?— That would be 20 to 25. 914. Of course, this argument suggests itself, that if cipher reduces the number of words to o\ith. and if your plain language rate is only one-half of your deferred rate, you are treating yoiu- plain language sender ten times worse than you ai-e treating your cipherer.— (Si/- John Pender.) I think we may take into consideration there what the traffic is. Our plain language, our social ti-affic, is something under 5 per cent. 915. There I agree; however that again suggests the question whether that 5 per cent, is not more susceptil)le of improvement and development than the 95 per cent. ? — I do not think it is. sir, for this reason — that a social telegram will be sent only if it has got to lie sent. Take Australia. If a man sends a social message he sends it because he ba.s got to send it. not because that message can be sent for a foui-th or a tenth. I do not believe that he will send it if he is not forced. It is a different thing when you get inland rates of pennies to foreign rates of shillings. 9Hi. Then, in your judgment, the reduction of cost would not develop traffic in these social telegrams-' — No, we could not get down to such a low rate that social workwo\ildbe material at all in our long-distance ti-affic. 917. We had evidence in Australia to this effect, that the high minimum for sending week-end telegrams was a considerable deterrent. I think when we were there the minimvmi was los. y — (Mr. Hibberdine.) 18s. 918. And it was suggested that if your minimum number of >vords could lie reduced, say, to a half, bringing the cost down to 9s. or 10s. there would be a veiy large development of traffic and a \ery great increase of social commuuicatiim between Australia and the Mother Country ?—(S/)- .Tohit Pender.) 1 doubt whetlier there would, but if there was an increase and a verv material increase, we might get our cables blocked up with work that was only paying us a vei-y small proportion of what practically the total of our traffic pays now. It might interfere with the com- mercial traffic. We lind that with the commercial traffic, if the merchant can get accuracy and reliability and speed, he is not so very keen about reduction of rate if he can get that. 919. I think it is only fair to say that in Australia there was only one opinion about your accnii-acy and your speed •' — They were satisfied with that ':' 920. I think so; there were complaints abnut rate. ■ — Everyone wants the rate reduced. 92L And there were complaints alxmt minimum, l)ut I think it is only just to your companies to say that we heard no complaints about either accuracy or speed? — Thank you; 1 am glad to hear that; that is vei-y satisfa.'tory. but I am tifraid with regard to rates, we have got no fi-iends. 922. What do you say as to the result of the introduction of the deferred rate, which I tliink has been in force nearly two years, and of the week-end rate which has been in force some ten nitmths ? — I think we can give you figures upon that ? — {Mr. Hibber- dine.) As to the figures, we have taken out one or two days to get the percentage of the social compaied with the commercial. Our idea of defeired traffic was that it would bring in the sm.all merchant and the shopkeeper ; it would not be much good for social people. I think our views have heen confirmed l)y the actual facts. We find that with Australia the com- mercial work on defeired traffic is 92 per cent, of the whole ; the social work is 8 per cent. We find that in South Africa the proportion of commercial is 72.\ per cent, and the social is 27.^ per cent. With regaid to week-end traffic, we find that with Australia the social work is 17 per cent, and the commercial work 8:! per cent. With Africa we find that the commercial work is 79 per cent, and the social 21 per cent. Now, with regard to the deferred work, our idea is this, that social work does not practically exist where countries are very far apart, and also where there is no fioatrng or temporary population. I think that view of oui-s is proved by these figures, and also by the figm-es of defeii-ed traffic with India where there is a temporary white population. 923. By " temporary "' do you mean tourist ? — Oh, no ; I mean the English officers, European mei-chants, and men who do not go out to reside pei-maneutly in India. But in Australia and South Africa they go to live. In India the proportion of the social on def ei-red messages is 4-t per cent, as against 56 per cent, of commercial. I think our views, therefore, are proved by these figures. 924. We had similar figui-es from the Pacific cable, which may be of interest to confront with yours, in which they stated in the ordinary caliles private was n-43 per cent., business 93 57 ; and deferred ordinary, private, was 49 per cent., business 51. That gives, in fact, a much higher percentage of private ? — It gives a very much higher percentage of deferred, but not of the ordinary ; our percentage of the ordinary is about five. 925. It is similar to yom- experience in the case of ordinary, and much higher in the case of defeii-ed i* — Yes. 926. (Mr. Campbell.) Have you worked out your defen-ed messages in that proportion, or in calculating the proportion have you taken the whole volume of your- business ? — Simply the deferred. (Sir John Pender.) Will you allow me to say there is a reason for the difference in the figures which you mentioned. There is a reason why the Pacific cable should c;u-ry more deferred than we. 927. (Chairman.) What is that? — Because the Post Office inland system here hands all then- undirected work to the Pa(-ific Cable Board, and a great deal of the deferred work comes from the local telegraph offices all over the country. Thei-efore. all that would go to the Pacific Cable Board. (Mr. Hibberdine.) In other words, they get a much higher jtroporfion of ordinary social work than we do. 928. I should like your opinion regarding the benefit of the defen-ed and the week-end rates. Are you satis- fied with the development of the defen-ed telegram system, and of the week-end system.' — (Sir John Fender.) We have a good deal of it. as the figures show-, as commercial work, and the amount of social work being so small means that there is no necessity for it ; we have never come down to a rate which would enable a social sender to spend any money over it. Then, of course, we are. and always lia\ e lieen since the very beginning, opposed to deliveiyon the Tuesday, for this reason ; naturally when a message comes into our office at the week-end we send it as soon as we can ; we get rid of it when the line is clear. On Saturday afternoon very often it comes ; it is in the terminal office long before the Tuesday. A man may come on Monday morning and say. •- You have a message for me from so and so ; I am expecting it " : it may be about his wife being ill, or something of that sort. The answer I should have to give him is •• Yes. it is - in the office, but ywu cannot have it until to-morrow •■ moniing." We have had cases of that sort. i>29. (Sir Eider HiKjgard.) That is a monstious state of affairs. — I have always been strongly against it since the very first time it was started. We have to say to the man, " If you like to pay the fidl rate you can have this message." It puts us in an impo.ssilile position, and in many cases we have had to give it nji, where 't has been a sei-ious case. (Mr. Hibberdine.) . Another point is that we have to deal with the public in Great Britain ; the Pacific Cable Board does not deal with the pulilic. We are face to face with the public in Gi-eat Britain over the counters ; we know what the public want. The Pacific Cable Board are not face to face with the public. (Sir John Pender.) In other words, the Government is stronger. 930. (Chairnuui.) There is nothing in those figures to disprove the i-ontention that social traffic may be very lai-gely developed liy imiirLiving the expedition of MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 49 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., and Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. [Oversea Comw/unications : Post and Telegraph. the service and by reducing the minimum ? — Mr. Hibherdine.) We have suggested redxiciny the minimum. 931. But only from 24 to 20?— With regard to ■week-end telegrams we suggested them in 1893 but we were stopped doing it by tlie British Government. 932. What is yom- view as to the reduction of the minimum from 20 to 12 ? — I do not think we ought to go below 20. 933. Can you give the reason ? — It would bring in too niany business telegrams. We must think of our shareliolders as well as the social pul^lic, and you can see by the figaires we have given you that there is an enormous amount of commercial work sent at deferred rate, and also in week-end telegrams. 934. Certainly, but that may also be new traffic although it is cou^mercial i' — A portion of it is new ti'affic ; as I said .just now a portion of it is from small , tradespeople and small merchants. 935. Who would not send at the fuU rate ?— That is so; they would not send their orders; they would give their orders to the agent and the agent would send them in his code. Now Ijy means of the deferi-ed and week-end they send them direct. 930. I think public opinion in Australia is I'athei' impi'essed by the fact that since 1902 there has been no reduction of your full rate ? — (Sir John Pender.) But then the reason for that is the laying of the Pacific cable. 937. The effect of laying the Pacific cable has been to keep up rates and not to reduce them H — {Mr. Hlhber- dine.) Certainly, that is our view. (Sir John Pender.) We can show it. There is the agreement which was made with Australia. If the traffic went by one com- bination at the present time the rate of traffic is suffi- cient under the agi'eement we made to lirLng that rate di)wn from 3.s-. to 2«. (id. at the present time. (Mr. Hibber- din"..) We might give a very short history of the Australian rates. 938. Yes. — We made our first agreement based on standard revenue with Australasia in 1891 when we reduced the rata to 4s. a word. That was done in conjunction with four Australian Colonies, they bear- ing half the loss caused by the reduction. At the end of two years and a quarter, the loss was 27,000L and they decided to go back again to 4s. 9cZ. We went back to 4s. 9(?.. and there was no loss. In 1899 we wanted more accommodatiim, more calile capacity than we had. We had lieeu negotiating to lay a cal)le by the Pacific ; we did not see our way to do it because we wished to keep our cables more in our own waters through South Africa, and also in connection with India. We made another arrangement with Australia undei- which we agreed to reduce our rate on the first of Jaiuiary 1901 to 3.<!. fid. It came down in 1902 to 3s. owing to the growth of traffic. Then the traffic of course left us and we used our new Australian caljles for other traffic to a very large extent from the Straits, China, Ac. If the Australian traffic had all i^assed by our lines, at the end of 1909 the average revenue would have been 327,000/. Now the standard revenue was 330,000Z., and there is no doubt that having received within 2,500/. of our standard revenue we shoiild have reduced the rate to 2s. (if/, a word on the 1st January. 1910. The three years' average for 1910 would have been 339,000/.: therefore we should have been bound under our agreement to have come down to 2s. (>(/. on the 1st January, 1911, probably, as we said, in 1910. 939. You have told us that it is impossiljle to contemplate the introduction of daily cable letters to Australia : can yon tell us why ? — It is owing to the difference in time over our lines in fact, we are perfectly willing to admit that we could not ciirry the traffic we do now if Greenwich time existed all over the world. Naturally, (3n homeward traffic one traffic follows the other through our lines. On outward ti'affic the Aiisti-alian has to be got through first because it is sooner day there than in other places, and the other traffic all follows in rotation after that ; so that in a great number of cases our cables in the East are full up with local traffic, that is day traffic, when our cables on this side are emi^ty ; and the same the reverse way, our caliles here may b(! full up. and the cables out in K 2U830 the East may be practically empty of traffic during their night. To get day letters through we have got no vacant time at all. 94(J. In other words you have, roughly speaking, no peaks and no troughs :■- — No ; we have to provide for Ixjoms of traffic anil that kind of thing. 941. But your luie is a level line Instead of having high peaks and deep troughs ? — Certainly ; taken as a whole ; that is, each cable has its o^vn peaks natui-ally, but taking the line as a whole, we are level. 942. What is the reason for refusa! of r(>gistered addresses for week-end cable letters ? — Because the Post Office were unable to deliver letters addressed to code telegraphic addresses. 943. You would be willing to see that done ? — Our proposal of senfling everything by wire would overcome that. 944. I have only one further question : about the admission of dictionar}' code words in deferred messages, is it in your opinion impossible to have an intermediate stage between the complicated cipher and plain language messages i-' — W^e think so. I have a note about that. The experience of our (companies in accepting messages in code words limited to dictionary words was that it was practically impossible to decide which were dictionary words and which were not in the eight langviages allowed to be used, and the com- jjanies will object very strongly to have the difficulties that were then experienced with the piiblic revived. You have no idea of the trouble we had at our counters with the jjublic about deciding which were absolutely dictionary words and which were not. 945. What prevents yom- having an agreed dictionary ? — Because yon have got to have an agreed dictionary for every language, and a man comes along and says, " This is an ordinary word." The languages are continually having new words invented. That was one of the difficidties we came to. 94t!. Would it be imjiossible for you to have an Eastern dictij)nary P — I think so ; another point is that we do not want to bring in any code for deferred messages ; that would simply mean that our rate would be reduced by one half at once, and we are not prepai'ed for that. We are experiencing very great difficulty even with pronounceable combinations. A man will say '■ This is a pronounceable combination," and we cannot pronounce it. He will say, '• You would pronounce it if you were a Pole." 947. The agreed dictionary would prevent that 'i — That was tried ; we had an agreed code which was to be prepared at the International Telegraph Office at Berne. It took about seven or eight years to finish and publish and everyl)ody thought it was going to overcome all these difficulties, but the Chambers of Commerce strongly objected to it, and it was brought up for consideration at the liondon Conference of 190.!. and the Postmaster- General at the time, Mr. Austen Chamberlain, came down to the conference and said he could not allow that dictionary to be used because there was such strong opposition from the Chambers of Commerce to be bound by any set book. Therefore the result was that the conference recommended its use as having been prepared after five or six years or seven years of work, and it is simply now a recommended code by the International Conference. Of course I might remark that there is a gi'eat numlier of merchants who have spent 5,000/., 10,000/., 15.000/., and 2O,00(l/. in the compilation of their codes. Those people have reduced their cost of caliling to a very small amount of money; it is less than a penny a word to Australia. 948. The class of sender whose case I am consider- ing is the occasional sender of defen-ed i* — We try to overcome that by having a social code compiled, and we keep now a copy of the Social Code, which is a fairly good code, at every one of our stations. A member of the pul)lic can go into any of our stations where we ileal direct with the public and use this code ; he can have the word " Social " sent free on the message he sends, and when we receive that message say, from Adelaide to London, we decode the message and deliver it to thi; addressee for hira. Although that advantage has been put before the public, and we have 50 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pesber, k.c.m.g., and Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. l^Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. advertised it. although om- Chairman h:us mentioned it many times at the general meeting, and although we put advertisements in the papers, it is not used to any extent a.t all. 949. The sender has then to send at full rates ? — He pays then full i-ates. 9.50. {Sir Rider Uiigijard.) Do you tlunk the clerks at yoiu- various offices bring this social code to the notice of the sendei-s of messages ? — Oh. yes. lui- doubtedly. 951. Always ? — I think so. 952. Because otherwise, the ordiuai-y sender would know nothing about it r — We have cards put up in all the offices. 953. Such cards may or may not be .^eeu ? — My own experience at the stations I have lieen in on our own line is that it is advertised and the social people are told about it. yS-i. Your clerks ai'e all instructed and given inducements to bring it to the notice of anylxidy sending a social message ? — Certainly. 955. {Sir Alfred Bateman.) I have one or two questions about i-ates ; I gather that there are two policies. Ton say that you reduce rates whenever experience has shown that the reduction is likely to produce sufficient new ti'affic to recoup the loss ? — Yes. 956. And you have a standard revenue agreement under which rates were reduced automatically ? — {Sir John Pender.) "We have had several of those agreements, and they work very satisfactorily. In fact, taking one agi-eement which we made with the Indian Government some years ago by which the Indian GoveiTunent undertook the liability of 44,0i.i0/. a year for 10 years, the total they paid on that arrangement for the 10 yeai"s was 26,500/. But they came in and helped us ; that is a different thing. We take a shai-e of the loss, and the Government takes the other share of the loss. That helps us materially. 957. But the result to the sender is a reduction? — Yes. 958. It is partly paid for by the company ? — Yes. 959. The Government takes no liability ? — Not in every case, because in some cases, for instance with the Cape, a reduction takes place only on a cei-tain volume of traffic having been attained. Then it goes further ; if it gets up to a certain amoimt which is recognised by both sides to be sufficient to fiU a cable then thei-e is a big jump in the next figiu-e of the reduction becau.se they take into consideration the extra capital required to lay cables to cari-y the work for another .reduction. The cost of extm Ciipital is also taken into eonsidei-atiou. 960. I wanted to ask you about the Australian lutes ; you have contended that if we had not a Pacific Cable Boai'd you would have reduced to 2s. 6</. a year or two ago 'i — Yes, not only that ; I go a step further, and I say that if there had been a working an-augement or a pool between the two companies I think it is quite possible then that the rate might have been reduced. 961. You mean the working expenditure would have been decreased so much ? — Xo, I do not say the working expendituie. but it would have been in the interests of both then to work as one, and one could hand the traffic to the other and the other hand it to the one. It saves a sudden rash on cme company, and the traffic works far moi-e evenly. For instance, the Pacific Cable Board have been very fortunate in having no breakdown of their cable, but they have had breakdowns of their land lines across the Continent and without any notice we get that traffic thl•o^^■n on to us at once. There is a delay all roiuul then. 962. But if you had not had the Pacific cable surely you would have been overdone, beciiuse you have said also that very often you have got as much as you can do now ? — Yes. (Mr. Hihherdine.) It would have meant that the Aden-Colombo cable would have been laid thiee or foiu- years ago. 96o. You would have had to lay another cable ? — Undoubtedly. 964. Then that would mean an inci-eased capital, w^uld it not ; you would want to get a large levenue from that? — (Sir John Pender.) I do not think in the Australian agreement thei-e was any arrangement for increased capital. (Mr. Hibherdine.) We have had two agreements with Australia and two with South Africa. With Austi-alia our fij-st standard revenue was 237,000?. Then we laid the Cocos cable, and the st;indard revenue was increased to 330,000/. to allow for the extra expense of laying the Cocos cable. Then if we had had any more need for capacity we should have had to lay the cable without any extra standard revenue. 965. But you do maintain you would have reduced the charge to 2s. 6d.?—(Sir John Pender.) We should have been forced to under the agreement. 966. As regards the charges in comparison with the Pacific Cable Boai'd they are practicaUy the same, are they not ? — With the exception of the press. (Mr. Hibherdine.) The charges for the Pacific Cable Board now are the same for Great Britain and for some of the places on the Continent, but the Pacific Cable Board are cheaper to Canada and the United States than we ai-e, :uid we are cheaper to Fi-ance and many European countries. There is one class of traffic we have refused, at present at all events, to can-y. that is defeiTed press. They can-y the whole of the deferred press, 967. You ai-e in competition — in a way — we found it in Austi-alia, and iu advertising your own advantages I suppose you claim the special facilities which you give ? — We claim we are the best route, of course. 968. What do you claim you do better than they do ? — One of the things we claim especially is that we have got more than one cable. We have four cables landed in Austi-alia. The Pacific Calile Board have got one. 969. Only one other question, I did not quite imder- stand as regards the length of cable ; I think you said that the cost was increased — after a certain point I sup- pose? (Sir John Pender.) No. For instance, when you lay a cable of 1 ,000 knots you can can-y very much moi-e traffic over that cable by putting 1 3< > pounds of copper and 130 pounds of gutta-percha per knot into that cable. K you continued that cable to something like 2.401) or 2,800 knots you woidd have to put about 450 pounds of copper and 400 pounds of gutta-percha or something approximate to that ; and it is a question then if that heavier cable would be of the same speed as the other. 970. But is not that advantage of the shorter length reduced by the increased terminal e.xpenses ? — You mean if you can cut the cable up you reduce the cost of the cable ? 971. No : if you have a short cable and you have terminal expenses at each end — if you have a cable of l.i'OO knots as compai-ed with one of 2,(.i00 knots — are the tei-minal expenses gi-eater Ln the case of the short length of 1,00(1 knots? — It depends uix)n what traffic you can pick up on the way. If you can call at a l)lace where there is ti-affic, then you can pay your office expenses, 972. The office expenses can be paid out of local traffic ? — Yes, I mean if you get the local traffic ; at St. Helena and Ascension, of eoui-se. thei"e is abso- lutely no traffic tti be picked up at all. 973. That is a dead loss ? — Yes, 974. (Mr. Campbell.) Could you tell me what is your total ti-affic to Austi-alia — the total amoimt of words con.stituting the Australian business ? — (Mr. Hibherdine.) I think Sir Hem-y Primrose gave a state- ment of our ti-affic combined with the Pacific, Ixith given together; we quite agree to those figures. The traffic Dili the Eastern last year was 2,000,000 ordinary words with Europe. 975. Yoiu- traffic -wds 2.000,000 words ?— Yes, of the total ti-affic of 2,898.000. 976. Supposing you had had the volume of traffic thiit the Pacific Cable Board had (that is the con- tingency on which youi- reduction to 2s. iid. depended^, would you have been able to handle that with the Colombo line ? — Cei-tainly. 977. Then we could safely say that you have got a margin of somewhere about one-third ? — In that case MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 51 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pendee. k.c.m.g., and Mr. W. HiBBERDlNE. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. we should have laid our Colombo line three or four years ago ; we are laying our Colombo line now for other trafSi;. more especially for the China, Japan. Straits, and Dutch Indies traffic. 97S. Wlien you were aslied by the Chairman to give a possible margin, I do not think you gave any reply which was definite, but we can take it from what you have said that at any rate you will have a margin with the Colombo and Aden line of considerably over one- third of your present Australian traffic ? — Yes. 979. Where you went into proportions of private business and commercial business, or commercial busi- ness and social business, in your messages, you included press messages as commercial business P — We treat press messages outside that ; they are not included in these percentages at all. 980. What proportion of yt.)ur business is press business ? — I do not think I have got that figure ; it is not a very large figure, at all events. (Sir John Pender.) We have not got it, but we shall be very glad to send it: we can have it worked out. (Mr. Hihhr.rdiiie.) It varies, so that it would not be a fair figure to take if we had it only for one year. Press traffic is sent when there is news required. Press traffic is not sent when news is not required. That applies to home- ward traffic from the Colonies, not so much to outward traffic. On outward traffic, if there is a steady demand for news, it goes ; on the homeward traffic London papers do not want it unless there is something special. 981. Are press messages all plain language messages ? — All plain language. 982. By the way, who are the parties to the Inter- national Telegraphic Convention which is mentioned here in one place as regulating the rates y — The parties to the International Telegraph Convention are every State in the world except tlie United States and Canada. There are one or two small States in South America which are not signatories ; but Canada and the United States are the only important States that are not signatories, and they are not signatories because the interior telegraph lines belong to private companies, and not to the Government. The Postal Convention, which is on all-foui-s with the Telegraph Convention, the United States and Canada are signatories to. 983. Does that Convention fix the rates at which cable messages are sent ? — The rates are arranged at each meeting of the conference ; they can be arranged in between, but, as a rvde, all alterations of tariff are fixed at these meetings, which used to take place every three years, and were then extended. to five, and at the last conference, in Lisbon, they extended the period to seven. On that point there has been some discussion, I believe, as to the power of one or other route to reduce their rate in competition. 984. That is what I wanted. — I made a copy of the regulations in the Convention on that subject, and it reads as follows : — " Alterations of the charges or of " the methods of application of the tariffs which " may be agreed upon between interested States by " virtue of paragraph 4 of Article 10 and Article 17 of •• the Convention, must have for their object and effect. '• not to create competition in charges between existing " routes, but rather to open to the public as many " routes as possible at equal charges ; and the neces- " sary combinations shall be so made that the terminal " rates of the Administrations of origin and desti- " nation are the same, no matter what route is " followed " ; that is to say. the terminal administra- tion on either side must have the same terminal rate for all routes. That is laid down as one of the obliga- tions of the signatories, and that the total rate by every route shall be the same rate. If a new route is opened by any one of the signatories to the Convention, that must not compete ; you must not have a reduced rate to the existing routes. In the same way, when the Pacific line was opened, under that clause they opened at the same rate as that of the Eastern Exten- sion Company, 3s. a word. 98.5. Every party except the Canadian Government and the United States, in respect of their land lines, are bound by the Convention ? — That is so. 986. And all cable companies ■'—We are bound ; one of the clauses in all our landing rights is that we shall abide by and carry out the the regulations of the International Convention. 987. In the case of making an agreement like this has that agreement necessarily to be submitted first to the Convention ? — No. 988. That provides for reduction ot rates? — You mean the AustraUan revenue agreement? 989. Yes. — At that time we were the only route to Austi-alia ; there was no one else to consider. 99(». In the case of there Ijeing only a single route, you can reduce yom- rates as you please ? — Certainly, if there is no one else. 991. In regard to paragraph .'') of your letter of Kith October, and the suggestion that there should be closer co-operation, you say that you arc willing to co-operate ; has there been a definite refusal from the Pacific Cable Board to co-operate ?—(S/c John Pender.) Yes. 1 think at one time we got pretty near, but I think the Pacific Cable Board wanted more than we ciinsidered their fair proportion. 992. It has been a disagreement over terms ? — It was a disagreement on the terms. (Mr. Hihhcrdine.) We are carrying on ordinary traffic, two-thirds of the Australian traffic, and the Pacific one-third, and we wanted naturally to base our agreement on the liasis of the actual traffic being carried. They wanted half and half. I think that difficulty might have been over- come, but there was a very strong feeling, and is now, I believe, in Australia, against any an-angemeut being made between the Pacific Cable Board and ourselves. As far as we are concerned, we have not asked for an arrangement; we say it would be a benefit, but the people it would Ijenefit most would be the Pacific Cable Board. Ijecause they have one line, and if they are intex-rupted they would lose all their revenue. As fai- as we are concerned, we have several lines, and there- fore, if we are interrupted, we do not lose our revenue. 993. Are week-end cables vii'i the Eastern delivered in Adelaide on the Tuesday ? — They are delivered in Adelaide on the Tuesday. 994. It is the same thing really with the week-end cables vii'f the Pacific? — Yes. 99-5. What is the origin of that preposterous arrangement ? Who made it ? — (Hir John Pender.) It was made simply because it was considered that week- end traffic might interfere with the other traffic if it were made too fast a service. It was giving a gi'eat con- sideration to give the reduced rate for it. It was done for the social sender, and not for the commercial sender, and there was a fear of the commercial sender taking advantage of it. That is really the bottom of it. 99H. I think, in reply to Sir Alfred Bateman. Mr. Hibberdine, you said your charges from France were cheaper than the Pacific Caljle Board's charges to Australia ; is that so ? — {Mr. Hibberdine.) That is so. 997. Is no advantage taken of that in sending messages to France ? — We obtain most of the traffic between France and Australia naturally. 998. What I mean is, is there no advantage taken of that in England by sending messages to Fi-ance and having them cabled from France ? — I am afraid you have misunderstood me. By our line the charge from Australasia to France and to Great Britain is the same, but the Pacific Cable Board's rate to France is higher than ours because they cany the message to Great Britain and then there is the extra payment from Great Britain to France, whereas we have our own cables to France at Marseilles, and we deUver messages direct to the French Government, and we ai'e able to charge the same rate as to Great Britain. 999. What is your charge from France to Austra- lasia? — 3s. a word the same as to Great Britain. 1000. (Sir Rider Hnggard.) You were telling us about certain proposals which your Company made which would have had the effect of very much simplifying and reducing the cost of these week-end messages, which proposals I think you said were made in Januai-y? — January 1st 1913. 1001. Can you tell \is why they were not accepted, being, if I may say so, obviously so admh-able, and so G 2 52 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION li yovembei- 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pendek, k.c.m.g., aud Mr. W. HiBBERDINE. [_Oi.vrsea Communications Post and Telegraph. much to the interests of the general public ?— The great objection was to a five word charge. 1002. By whom ? — Our proposal was to charge so much for five words, that is to say, we thought it was a simple way of working it. taking Australia for example, to charge 3s. for every five words, or in other words tc> give five words for one full i-ate word. Now most of the people thought it was better to give a word rate pure and simple at one fourth of the full rate. 1003. Excuse my interrupting : Whom do you mean hy " most of the people " ? — The Post Office ; we had a meeting at the Post Office. 1004. Do you me;iu the officials or the representa- tives of other parties ? — The representatives all together and principally the Pacific Cable Board. 1005. That is what I wanted to know. — As part of the negotiations we gave up our suggestion to charge five words for one and agreed to charge one fourth rates. 1006. You were ovemiled on the matter of the five words ? — Yes, we wanted to make a compromise and we compromised upon that. That is one of the points we compromised on. We have not compromised yet on the "Tuesday" or the delivery direct to the receiver. 1007. Am 1 right in understanding that practically on the motion of the Pacific Cable Board those sugges- tions were overruled ? — I should not like to say that. 1008. My colleagues and myself do not quite under- stand you ; first you said the British Post Office and then the Pacific Cable Board i' — I would rather you asked the Post Office for this evidence. 1009. I am afraid 1 must ask the question ':' — The Post Office had a meeting at which the Secretary of the Post Office took the chair and there were certain minutes made. I think if you had those minutes before you they would give you the particulars of the discussion which took place. 1010. Am I to understand you would prefer to answer no further questions ou that point? — It is a matter which is under discussion at the present time ; therefore it is sub judice. One does not like to answer questions when a matter has not been settled. 1011. May I ask is it under active discussion or is it in a state of suspended animation? — {Sir Joint Pender.) I am afraid the latter. (Mr. Hibhcrdine.) We wrote to the Post Office on the 11th October last and we are waiting a reply to that letter. 1012. Of coui'se a month is not long to wait for au answer, but ? — 1 may say I have written a private letter to one of the assistant secretaries of the Post Office. 1013. A private letter? — A semi-official letter: I wrote to ask him when we should have a reply to our official letter. 1014. (Chairmcm.) Could you read us your official letter ? — I do not think I had better read it ; it is putting certain proposals forward to the Post Office, more especially about Austi-alia and South Africa, to know if they agree with them. I may say the Post Office were particularly liberal, I think, in coming forward and agreeing to accept under a fai-thing a word on all week-end telegrams which were handed over to them. 1015. (Sir Rider Haygard.) If you do not feel at liberty to read to lis this letter could you tell us as nearly as you think proper its substance ? — (Sir John, Pender.) I think it is a suggestion — there is a difficulty about this — it is a fresh suggestion which may be under consideration with the Post Office or may not, but we have not yet heard — we have had no answer to the letter. 1016. I cannot press you further, liut I might put this question to you ; ai-e we right in understanding that so far as you are concerned you are both willing and anxious to simplify this week-end telegi'am business to the advantage of the public ?- — (Mr. Hibberdine.) Undoubtedly. 1017. And that it is no fault of yours, whose ever fault it may be, that this has pot been done ? — ■Certainly 1018. Might I put one more question on that point ; have not you it in your power to do it yourselves, and if you did do it would not the result of that be to oblige everybody to follow suit ? — We do not wish to bring in week-end telegi-ams unless we have a definite set of regulations. We do not want to start week-end telegrams with several places unless we know for certain what the regulations are to be. As we cannot have these regulations unless the Government give their consent to them, we have got to wait until we get tbat consent. 1019. You must have governmental consent ? — We should not like to do it without the Government consent. 1020. You have not it in yoiir own power to make your own regulations about it ? — I do not think so. 1021. Therefore it comes to this, that here you are anxious and willing and you are depending upon Government consent to carry out these operations : Is that so ? — That is what it amoimts to officially. (Sir John Pe»(7t'r.) May I add this : we have other traffics. The Pacific Cable Board have only got their own traffic from point to point. We have traffics all over the world. Therefore \\'hatever arrangement is come to we have to consider the different parts and different rates, whereas they lia\'e only to consider the two points. We want to arrange some uniform basis so that it would be an adequate aiTangement for all the different places we go to. That is really the tmth of the matter. 1022. Pei-haps I might put a supplementary question on this : Have you any reasonable prospect of these emendations and beneficent altei-ations being earned out at an approximately near date ? — (Mr. Hibberdinc.) I think we have. Ilt23. One moie ; at present I understood one of j'ou gentlemen to say that very hard cases can arise imder the existing regulations — I mean with reference to the fact that actually you maj' have, in a case of life or death, a cable in your office, and may not be able to communicate that cable to the unfortunate recipient? — (Sir John Pender.) That is the case. 1024. In your opinion, does not that amount, or may it not amount, in certain cases to a positive cruelty ? — Remember this, that the applicant coming for that telegram can get his telegram if he chooses to pay the full rates. 1025. I repeat the question putting it in this way. Supposing that applicant is not in the position to find several pounds to pay the full rates, would it not be an actual cruelty ? — I quite agree with you ; we do not like to be in the position. It is really this: it is a case in which the Government are powerful enough to do it; we as a company are not. That is really the bottom of it. . 1020. I only wanted to know the facts, — {Mr. Mibberdine.) In one or two cases of that description we have delivered them on Monday and taken the risk. 1027. May I pass on ; I just want to ask you a question or two about South Africa. Could you tell us now any details as to your Soutli African traffic and as to the histoiy of the calile rates ? — When we opened with South Africa there was a very small bxisi- ness. We opened in December 1879 at a tariff of 8s. 9d. per word, and that was carried by cable from Aden to Zanzibar and down to Durban, first calling at Mozambique and Lourenfo Marques. The first year's traffic onlyyielded (>8,0u0/. Thenthere were disturbances in South Africa and we went up to 142.1100/. Then we went down to 90,000?. ; we gradually rose bit by bit to 1888 when we had 167,000/. of traffic. In 1889 the goldfields were discovered and oiu' ti-affic rose at once by ItiO.OOii/. to 262.000/. — there was a boom. It went down again for a few years. 1028. At the same i-ate of 8». 9d. or whatever it was ? — Yes. it went down in 1894 when we were earning 207,000/. a year. Then on the 1st April 1895 we reduced our i-ate to 5s. a word and we opened the new cable from Loanda to Cape Town to give an alternative route aud to prevent as far as possible total inteiTuption of communication. In 1896 the MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pendeb, k.c.m.g., and Mr. W. HiBBBBDINE. [Oversea Communications Post and Telegraph. traffic was 360,000L, and it went down to 278,000?. and 265,000Z. in 1897 and 1898 ; naturally when the war broke out, and there was a large amount of Govern- ment traffic, it went up very largely, to 383,000L in 1899 at the rate of 4s. a word. In 1900 we earned the highest revenue of any at that rate, 4.51,000L 1029. That was because of the war .' — Yes. In 1902 we earned 463,0002. at 3s. per word. That is when the war ceased. The effect of these large increases was to bring our tariffs down ; we made the standard revenue agreement in 1901, and the tariffs came down to 3s. 6d. in 1901, 3s. in 1902. and 2s. 6d. in 1903. The first complete year of the 2s. 6d. rate when the Boer War was altogether over gave us 389,000L 1030. At half -a-ci-own ? — Yes. Since then there has been a steady decrease, 363,000Z., 326,000/., 304,000?., 252,000?., and 238.000?. In 1909 we went up again to 287,000?., and in 1910 to 290,000?., and last yeai- (1912) we were down to 278,000?. As we stated in oiu' letter we have over 100,000?. less revenue at the present moment than we had in the first year of the half-crown rate. 1031. I suppose you attribute that rather to local depression in South Africa than to anything to do with the rate ? — Undoubtedly, local depression. 1032. That is how it stands at present — a 2s. 6(?. rate and a falling revenue ? — Yes. 1033. Does the system of week-end cable letters and deferred telegrams apply to South Africa ? — Certainly ; we brought it into operation with South Africa before Australia. 1034. In fact they have any advantages that are to be had now ? — South Africa has exactly the same advantages as Australia in every point. 1035. (Mr. Bowrimj.) There is a route to Australia by way of Fao, is there not? — Yes. 1036. Will you tell me, does the Eastern conti'ol that route entirely ? — No, we do not control any part of it. The history of the Fao route is rather a peculiar one. It was the first route ever opened between Europe and India, in 1865 the Indian Government wished to get into telegraphic communication with Great Britain and the Indian Government laid a cable from Kiuachi up the Persian Gulf to Fao ; the Turkish Govei-nment made a land line from Scutari on the Asiatic side to Fao to meet it. That route never worked satisfactorily. I have known a message go through in four or five hours, but the average is more like two or three days. 1037. (Mr. Campbell.) What is the cause of it ?— Bad working on the Turkish lines ; Asiatic operators are not the same as European operators. 1038. (Mr. Bowring.) That is on the Turkish land lines ? — Yes ; the result of that was that the Teheran route was opened through Persia in 1868, and our route to India was opened in 1870. The Turkish route had been working at a very cheap rate, and at the Conference of Rome in 1871-2, the Titrks asked that their route might be cheaper than ours. They said : " It is no good oui- competing against you at equal " rates, we should get no traffic at all ; if we have a " cheaper rate we might get some traffic." It was dis- cussed for over a week at the Conference in Rome, all the Government officials being present, and it resulted in the Turkish route being allowed to be a cheaper route. That is contrary to that regulation I read just now, but it was specially allowed by the Conference that the Turkish route should be cheaper than the route nii'( Teheran or via Eastern, and it has remained to the present day. 1039. I understand the rate by way of Fao is 2s. 9(Z. against 3s. by yom- route or via the Pacific ? — Yes. 1040. Can you tell me what traffic the Fao route does ? — It takes about a quarter of 1 per cent. 1041. On account of the detention mostly ? — Yes, that is of the Australian traffic ; the Indian traffic is slightly higher. 1042. Are we to understand that the detention of the deferred messages at the offices is only caused by the Pacific Board insisting upon it ? — Do you mean the week-end telegrams ? 1043. Yes. — ^I would not like to say " yes " to that. 1044. Are you only waiting their assent to deliver them earlier ? — -We are waiting their assent and we would deliver them earlier. 1045. And directly you have that I think you would deUver them as early as you could ? — If we had an official letter from the British Government saying they ought to be delivered on the Monday morning, we shonld do it at once. 1046. And you would be glad to do it ? — -Certainly. (Sir .John Pender.) I would like to add that we have had a meeting with the Post Office, and it was not only the Pacific Cable Board ; there was a general feeling with all the companies conceraed, the Atlantic com- panies and all, that those messages should not be delivered before the Tuesday. (Mr. Hibberdine.) The Atlantic companies began the first week-end telegrams, and they delivered them on Tuesday. We followed suit. As soon as we began delivering on Tuesday, the Atlantics altered their practice and delivered them on the Monday. (Sir John Pender.) The Pacific Gable Board are strongly opposed to the Monday. 1047. I think now the Atlantic Companies deliver them practically as they get them, to get them out of the way ? — Yes. 1048. There has been no pooling agreement between the Pacific and Eastera to Australia? — No. 1049. Except on rates ? — Yes. 1050. Your rate was not reduced to 3s., I think, until the Pacific cable was talked of ? — -It was reduced 11 months before the Pacific cable was laid. 1051. When it was arranged to be laid though ? — That I do not know ; we had made the agreement about the sliding scale before it was agreed to be laid. 1052. And under your Standard Revenue agree- ment you would have reduced jow rate, whether the Pacific cable had been laid or not ? — -Certainly. 1053. If the Pacific cable had not been laid you would have given a further reduction on account of greater revenue ? — We should have had it down to 2s. 6d. for a certainty. 1054. Can you teU me if there is much difference in the speed of transmission between the long-distance cables and the short ? — There is a very great difference, and I can give you an example of that. On our fastest cable from Great Britain to Vigo we can send as much as 400 letters a minute. 1055. What distance is that? — -About 500 miles. Our slowest cable is the comparatively small core one between Aden and Zanzibar, and we do 100 letters a minute there. 1056. What length is that?— About 2,000 miles. That, of course, would be modified again by the size of the core of the cable. For instance, the cable between Rodriguez and Cocos is about 2,200 miles, and we do 140 words a minute on that. (Sir John Pender.) The capacity of the cable is totally diffei-ent. 1057. Increased by the core, you mean ? — (Mr. Hibberdine.) By the size of the core, the amoimt of copper. 1058. The larger the core ? — The greater the can-ying capacity. 1059. Apparently you have found out by experience that business men are very willing to pay long prices for speed, and that they would sooner continue to pay higher prices than have any reduction in the speed ? — The large merchant would certainly prefer to pay the higher rates, and not bring in the smaller merchants. (Sir John Pender.) But over and above that, if you put it to a man, " If I can give you an indifferent service " at such and such a rate, or a first-class service at " such and such a higher rate, which would you •' prefer?" the big merchant would take the good service at once. He wants a reduced i-ate, but naturally he would insist on the same service at the reduced rate. 1060. The speed is more important really to a business man than cost ? — Speed and accuracy. (Mr. Hibberdine.) Accui-acy comes first. 1061. They are willing to pay for speed on cables much the same as on steamships ? — Yes. (Sir .John C5 3 54 DOMINIONS Royal commission 14 Noveinber 1913.] Sii- J. Denison-Pesdee, k.c.m.g., Mr. W. HlBBERDtSTE. ;uid [Oi'ersea Cummunications : Post and Telegraph. Pender.) Tee, although, as I say, that is modified in this way. that they know we will give them the same efficiency at the lower rate, and thei-efore they are always "crying for the lower i-<ite. If they do not ^et efficiency, they come round to om- office, and there is trouble. 1062. Is there any means knowii at present of still fm-ther speeding up cables ? — I wiU not say there is not. AVe have increased the speed of our cables, some of the old cables very materially, in the last few yeai-s, and at the present time we are working direct to Alexaudria, and it not only increases the .speed, but what is perhaps just as valuable, it reduces many chances of en-or. Eveiy time a message is transmitted it is liable to eiTor, and if we can work to Bombay with one ti-ansmission, instead of, as we used to have years ago, perhaps five, it will make a very material difference, and we are taking all that into account. lU6o. Ai-e you deterred in any way by the cost of those newer speeding-up an-angements ? — Xever. 1(164. Cost does not enter into that ; you adopt the veiy latest and mo.st approved system ? — At any cost we keep our lines efficient. 1065. And you adopt the most modern methods in every way ? — In every possible way. 1066. (Mr. Garnett.) May I just ask you one question with regai-d to your statement about the laying the Pacific cable preventing the reduction of rates. Is it right to di-aw the general inference that there is not a sufficient amount of work to go roimd for lx)th companies, and that if both companies have to be iTin on commercial lines, that circimistance militates against this i-eduction, which you think would have come if the Pacific cable had not been made ? — Certainly. 106". You mentioned the fact that you have a Social Code, and that anyone desiring to avail himself of that code has the opportunity of being informed about it at youi- various offices. May I ask if those facilities equally obtain, .say, at little post offices in the coimtry ? — No, because that is a Government matter. If we could show anyone how he coidd send a telegram at a reduced rate, we should always do it, and so would oiu' staff in any pai-t of the world, and not ti-y to get more money, in fact in many cases when a man has come in we have suggested this code. 1068. I quite follow that, but I am thinking of a man who perhaps has to telegi-aph to Australia, as I do myself sometimes on social matters, from a small covintry to^vn. I have constantly telegraphed in that way. It is my own fault no doubt for not having made myself acquainted with the facilities you give, but in the post offices they do not indiciite that there is anything of the sort ? — The post offices have not got a code. {Mr. Hibherdine.) We asked them to have them, and they pointed out that there was such a large number of offices that to have a code at each office would be practically impossible, and not only that, but it would be impossible to instmct some of the uountrj- postmistresses to explain the code, which is somewhat technical and difficult to carry out. 1069. Then in practice it does come to this — that tliis Social Code is not very lai-gely i-.sed, and it can hardly be used at all, unless the indiWdual who wishes to caV)le is within reach of your own office I' — Or unless he has made a previous aiTangement with us. He can send the message t<^ us V>y post, and we will send it on for him. 1070. Do you think these facilities are generally known':' — (Sir John Pender.) I do not say they are. We do our Ijest. I do not say they are generally known all over the coimtry, but the class of traffic is ctirious. becatise if a man knows he has to communicate with Austi-aUa over any period, he will perhaps look about and seek for a book ; he may make inquiries in that case, but as a nile in this class of ti-affic the man -does not know that he is to commimicate with Australia, he does it in a luiny, and then lie does not make any special inquiries (very likely he has not time) as to the cheapest plan. 1071. Having x-egard to the enonnous distance from here jou would agree that it would be desirable that this knowledge should be spi-ead as widely as possible ? — Yes. we do all in oui' power to give every facility without taking very much off our cajTying capacity. 1072. But there is no obligation on the Post Office to give any infonnation at all ? — No. 1073. Did you ask the Post Office about this matter .' — (Jlfc. Hibherdine.) Yes, we did ask the Post Office, and they said it was impi-acticable to do it, and we agreed with them that it would be. 107-1. It is not a thing you could reasonably ask them to do ? — No. 1075. One or two questions with regard to tlie press ; have the reductions in recent years very largely increased your press traffic ? — No. We have made veiy lai-ge reductions for the press. We took 3hd. a word between coast and coast, l^etween our stations in Great Britain and the coasts of Africa and India, and the result was that we expected to have a large traffic, but, as a matter of fact, we have about the same traffic as before. Egypt is in a peculiar position, because in Egj^st you have a large population in the winter time which wants European news, and therefore it is sent out to them. The reduction from Is. to Shd. is an enormous reduction. In South Africa the reduction from Is. to 3hd. has resulted in a traffic which was 880,000 words being reduced to 380.000. but that is not a fair way perhaps to put it. The real reason of that reduction is. that thei-e was competition among the newspapers and instead of one news service serving the whole of South Africa, as it does now, for some three or four years thei^e were two services both sending the same news and both paying us. We carried the traffic, but we would much rather have caiTied only one service. The same thing is taking place in Austi-alia at the present time. For years in Australia there was only one service, that of the " Melbourne Age." Now there are two services, and consequently the Australian press ti-affic has almost doubled, simply because tlie newspapers are competing against one another, and that has nothing to do with the reduction of rate. 1076. Making allowance for the fact that there are two sei-vices, is it your exp>erienc« that in the bulk the amount 'of press news transmitted from this side to Atistralasia is on the increase or not ? — Of com-se when you say " the bulk " you mean the actual news sent 'f 1077. Yes. — I should not think it is increasing very materially ; it may have increased because of competition, tliat is to say, they both now send rather more than they did before. 1078. But the amount of news transmitted is not in proportion to the facilities or reductions you give ? — No. One example I can give you. We have what we call an Empire Press Sei'vice. and we have to seiTe with news a great number of small places among the dominions. We give it for nothing at Ascension, and for a small sum at St. Helena, Zanzibar, Sejchelles, Maitritius, Egypt, Malta, and Gibraltar. That news used to be sent in very small telegrams. Now we have one news message sent continually all day long. Renter hands us in batches of 20 or 30 words at a time which goes off and that one message goes aU round our system, and is delivered at 30 or -10 places. We can afford to do that very much cheaper than having oiu" line blocked up to a large extent with a numl>er of small;messages l)eing sent to diffei-ent places. Australia would not take that message ; we offered to send it from Durban to Australia for '2d. a word exti-a, but they prefeiTed to have their own sei-vice. 1079. I notice there is a difference in press rates. Tht)se between Austi-alia and New Zealand and South Africa ai'e nearly twice those between Australia and the United Kingdom ? — Yes, that is specially between South Africa and Australia. The International Con- vention lays it down that the press rates shall be half the ordinary rate, but they give us a free hand to make any si>ecial an-angements we like, which we have done everywhere. There has lieen no demand for any news between South Africa and Austiulia. Therefore, the international i-ate remains at half the rate. But MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 55 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., and Mr. W. HiBBEKDINE. [Oversea Communications : Post and Telegraph. we have already offered to take a rate of 2d. a word between Dm-ljan and Australia provided the Australian Commonwealth will take Id. a word as they do on British traffic, but we have had no demand and nobody wants to use it. If anybody came along and said, ■' We will send so many thousand words at different " times of the day between South Africa and Australia," we should take 2d. a woi'd at once. We have made the (jfi'er and we stand by it. 108tt. Just one other question. I do not know whether it is one you can answer. Do you find from your experience tliat there is any growini; interest in the affairs, say, of Europe generally, and this country in particular, growing up which demand a better news service? — I should not like to give an opinion upon that myself ; it is a matter which a news agency would be able to feel the pulse of the people about much better than we could. (Sir John Pender.) I think we might answer that in one way — that there is a certain amount of news sent every day, and if there is more interesting news to go a certain proportion of that other news is dropped. As a rule if there is important news, news that is not so important is dropped out. (Mr. Hihherdiiie.) And if there is any very impoi'tant news they will have it, of course, whatever the cost is, and we can give you au example of that. In the case of the first cricket matches i)layed in Australia one of the newspapei'S found ovit the lu-geut rate of 9s. a word and they made a scoop the first day because they had the news in their morning edition ; the next day all the other papers did the same and they stopped it, and the company were very glad, because we had the whole of our oi'dinary traffic stopped for tliat day. 1081. The reason I ask the question is that while we were in Australia, events of the very ntmost im- portance affecting the peace of the whole world were happening in Europe, and certainly the amoimt of news received about them did not enable xis to follow intelligently what was going on. 1082. (Mr. Tatlow.) Is that automatic arrange- ment by which the charge for the ordinary telegram would be reduced when your revenue reaches a given sum still in existence ? — Yes. 1083. Is it to continue for a certain number of years ? — There is practically no limit to the number of years. Of coiu-se, we are a very long way off it now, naturally. 1084. Is the Australian business increasing — your share of it ? — -Yes.. I can give you the average of three years' figures. In 1909 our revenue was 209,000?. ' 108.5. What was it last year ?— 238,000?. 1086. It will be a long while before the 330,000?. is reached ? — By oiar line, certainly. 1087. With regard to the week-end messages, yom- proposal was five words for 3s. ? — Yes. 1088. That is a considerable rednotion on the present charge ? — Pretty much the same ; it is 9d. a word at present. 1089. It is about Vc?. a word, so that it is a fairly substantial reduction? — Yes. 1090. But you were overruled as regards the suggested five words arrangement ? — We found they all objected to that — everybody ; we were the only ones who supported it. 1091. They prefeired the charge per word ? — Yes. 1092. I suppose it is still qxiite clear that yon are willing to make a reduction, if others are, in the charge per word ? — We are ready to have one word for five, that is one-fiftli rate. 1093. If you are willing to allow Id. under that aiTangement would you not be willing to have Id. under the word an-angement? — No, because with a charge for five words we get a certain profit on unused words ; that is why we charged one word for five. If we charge a word rate we want a one-foui-th rate. 1094. Each five words would stand liy themselves ? —Yes. 1095. I am glad to make that clear ; I see the difference now. I suppose tliere is no practical difficulty whatever about delivei'ing all message.s on the Mond;iy instead of the Tuesday ? — No. 1096. With regard to the suggested pooling an-ange- ment between you and the Pacific Cable Board, it fell through at the time you said ? — Yes. I<jy7. They wanted something more, and you wanted to base it on the actual ti-affic earned for a certain number of years ? — Yes. 1098. Do you not think it quite natural for a new company in such an arrangement to seek something in the way of prospective advantage ? — We were willing to give up a certain amount. (Sir John Pender.) Tliat is some years ago now. We are prepared to go on the same basis to-day. They liave had tour or five years' experience altogether, now. 1009. If the countries concerned in the Pacific cable were willing to agree to some pooling arrange- ment you do not apprehend much dif^culty in coming to a solution with regard to the percentages ? — I do not think so. (Mr. Hibberdine.) The real reason it fell through was the opposition in Australia. 1100. (Chairman.) Public opinion in Australia is very strongly against it ? — (Sir John Pender.) It is. 1101. (Mr. Tatloxo.) You say that your capital has been reduced to 12.5?. a knot. Would you mind saying from what it was reduced — in other words, what was the original cost ? — I cannot give you that. Remember we have paid out a great deal. Although we have paid a steady dividend for a great many years, we have put a large sum to reseiwe. The whole of those reserves have been, and will be, sooner or later, absorbed, as they are put away, in giving fresh facilities, and in reduction of i-ate. If we had paid a propor- tionate dividend in the early days of the profits we were receiving, we could not, at the j^reseut time, have come down even to the existing rates, but it is the putting away to the reserve fund which has enabled us to come down to the present rates. We could not have done it if it had not been for our strengthening of the company's position in the early days. 11(12. I suppose that jirocess is still going on ? — Yes, but not a shilling from our reseiwes has ever gone amongst ourselves, it has all gone to the benefit of the public traffic. (Mr. Hil/berdine.) To improve the service. 1103. (Mr. Lorimer.) Nearly every question I had noted has already been asked, so that I have only just one or two left. Were the conditions under which the automatic reduction was to take place determined by traffic alone or by traffic and profits, or in some other way ? — (Sir John Pender.) There were an-ange- ments made according to traffic, and they were made with the Governments. You are talking of South Africa, I understand, just now ? 1104. I was sj^eaking rather of Australia. — Aus- tralia was based on the traffics and what was considei-ed a fair and reasonable sum of money in the way of profits when we could afford to come down. 110.5. Was that the result of a decision arrived at by the International Convention ? — No, it had nothing to do with that ; that was a purely private arrange- ment made between ourselves and the Australian Government. 1106. Are there any indeiieudent cables owned by France and Germany to the Far East ?• — No. 1107. None whatever? — No, not as a tlu-ough line. 1108. So that you cari-y all the Continental traffic ? — We can-y the Par East traffic. We may hand it over to other associated companies, that is, other comi^auies with whom we work under a joint purse arrangement, which is well kno^vu, such as the Great Northern (Danish) Company. The Great Northern and ourselves carry the traffic to the Far East. 1109. East of Europe, apart from the Pacific cable, there are no other cables than youi-s ? — To the Far East there are no other cibles, but France has some local cables. 1110. I was speaking of through cables? — No. (Mr. Hibberdine.) There is no tlu-ough foreign cable to Australia ; in the Far East there is the American Com- pany, the Danish Company, the French Government cable, and the German Dutch Company. G 4 56 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION ; 14 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., and Mr. W. HiBBEKBINE. [Oversea Communications ; Post and Telegraph. 1111. I quite understand that France, of co'u-se, has them in Saigon? — (Sir John Pender.) They have to come on tlie Eastern, but the American or the Great Northern lines could cany their traffic a certain distance. 1112. Tou say that had it not been for the crea- tion of the Pacific Cable Board, by this time some reduction would have been possible ? — Certainly not only possible, but it woidd have actually come into effect. 1113. Therefore, to that extent the public has suffered by the ci-eation of the Pacific Cable Board ? — Tes. 1114. So far as the traffic between Europe and the East is concerned, you have ah-eady a great deal moi-e than made \ip any loss you might have sustained by the Pacific cable, and has the time not come therefore in accordance with your own principle and practice to consider reduction ? — We have not made it up. 1115. Between Europe and the East you had. prior to the existence of the Pacific cable. l.TOii.dOii odd words in the year, and last year you had 2,068,(1(10 : is not that an increase P It seemed to me, looking at these figures, that is an increase similar to what appears to have justified you in reducing from 4s. M. to 4s. ? — (Mr. Hibberdine.) Tes. but that is only the Em-opean ti-affic ; that is not the Amei-icau traffic ; we do not carry the American ti-affic now ; the American traffic is can-ied by the Pacific Cable Board. 1116. Tou had the American traffic before, and it has pi-acticaUy gone to the Pacific Cable Board? — Tes. 1117. I am speaking of the Eastern traffic between Em-ope and the East, aud I point out that the increase in the ti-affic from the introduction of the Pacific Cable Board until now is about as large as justified you in reducing prior to that the rate from -is. 9d. to 4s. ? — (Sir John Pender.) No. I think you must have got hold of the wi-ong figure. What is the figure which had to be arrived at before we went down to the 2s. Cid. rate ? 'JfiTr. Hibherdine.) It is a question of money. (Sir John Pender.) We wi]l look up the figures. Your point is that we have already got to the figure which was named for the 2s. (id. reduction. 1118. Tou have fixed the figure for the 2s. (id. reduction ? — Tes. 1119. But you have not got to that yet? — No. (Mr. Hibherdine.) Oiu- figure was fixed at 330,OOOJ. a year, and our traffic last year was only 238,00(1?. {Sir John Pender.) We have not yet an-ived at the sum of money, but if we had got the Pacific traffic and the Pacific cable had not )>eeu laid, we should have been considerably over it. 1120. Then it is the que.stiun of money which determines you ? — Tes. 1121. Traffic as represented liy money, I mean ? — Tes, traffic as represented by money. 1122. Supposing you had had that increase of traffic, do you say you would have had an increase of traffic which would probaldy have justified you in leducing the rate if the Pacific cable had not been laid ? Woidd your exijeuses have teeu relatively less than they are now for the aiiDimt of traffic you do caiTy ? — Tes. our expenses would have been less to a certain extent, but speaking right off, I do not know that they would have been less to any very great extent. We have to canvass in Australia, and we have to canvass to a certain extent here. The canvass- ing here does not cost us so very much because there are other traffics which have to be canvassed for, but in Australia, of course, we do spend a certain amount of monej'. 1123. (Chairman.) Could you give us the amount ? — I do not know that it is a veiy material amount. (Mr. Hibberdine.) It will be 2,000?., 3,000/.. or 4.0007. a year, perhaps. 1124. (Mr. Lorimer.) I see you deprecate, very properly, cariying uni'emunerative traffic? — (Sir John Pender.) Tes, we do not like doing that. 1125. Do you find it pays to send cable messages which cost the newspapers less than a tenth of a penny per word ? — (Mr. Hibberdine.) That is the i-livisiou lietween the members of an association. 1126. Tou would have to divide it over a lot of newspapers to make it up if you wanted 3s. or 3s. 6d. there ? — But the uewspapere of Austi-alia pay us 7id. a word. When that news message anives in Austi-alia it is distributed among a lai-ge number of newspapere. 1127. That means that each group of newspapere would requh'e to be about 75 to pay that amount ; you do not mean to say you spread that over 75 news- papers ? — I do not say that. 1128. " To Zanzibai- and Mauritius the actual cost " is well under a tenth of a penny per word to each " individual paper " ? — That is a different thing altogether. The news message passes Zanzibar, for instance, and in places like Zauzibiu-. Seychelles, Mam-itius, and so on, we see how much the public can subscribe — it is not a matter of newspapers at all. 112!'. When you go as far East as that you become public benefactors ? — The ti-affic passes thi'ough there, and we say. " Very well, if you can ■■ give us 401. or 50?. a yeai- we will deliver this news " message to you."' 1130. That is hai-dly consistent with your state- ment, wliich I greatly appreciate, that you decline altogether unremunerative traffic ? — But this traffic which we give away in that way is passing over the lines already. (Sir John Pender.) I think I can explain it to yoti. It is a message which is sent practically to veiy many pai-ts of the world, it is the same message, and it goes thi-ough these offices, and it is dropped at each office. We are paid so much for that message, and we collect whatever we can addi- tional. It is a news message which goes every day. 1131. Tou seud your messages over cables, which cost something like half the rates you have instanced ? —Tes. 1132. That of coui-se must be profitable to you.' — Our profits are all pubUshed. 1133. What is your dividend ? — Seven per cent. 1134. Do 30U carry as much as that to reserve eachyeai'? — What we caii-y to reserve vai-ies, but we caiTj- a large amount every year, evei-ything over the 7 per cent., l>ut my point is this : with regard to that money which we cany to resei-ve not one shilling of that has ever been divided amongst oiu-selves ; it has all gone in fresh instruments, keeping the concern up to date, and in laying fresh cables. We have spent diuiug the last 20 years, roughly speaking, something like seven millions of reserve on the cables. 1135. How much have you spent in repairs in the same time ? — I cannot give you the total amount offhand. 1136. What is youi- capital ? — Remember the capital is partly in ordinaiy shares, partly in preference shares, and partly in debentures, which are -1 per cent. 1 137. Do these companies which you have specified, the German Atlantic, the French Atlantic, and the Great Northern Company pay fairly well ? — The French Atlantic, no. The German Atlantic started with a verj- fine subsidy from the German Government — all the German companies do; they are subsidised, and as tliey get the traffic and work into the traffic tlie subsidy gradually dimini.shes. It is really a guarantee from the Gox ernment. 1138. That is a different position from yours alto- gether ? — Tes. 1139. The Pacific Cable Board we know all alxjut.; it is rapidly becoming self-supporting ? — Tes.' 1140. Then again you mentioned iu this paper that you had. in order to give the public additional facilities, in.stead of duplicating your caljles taken them over different routes and introduced a great many ditt'eront stations ?— Tes. 1141. I think I gathered from what you said to Sir Alfred Bateman that the more stations you Jiave the cheaper the cable is? — No. no; that is another point. 1142. Did you not say that when you coidd have a short cable length you used lighter cojjper and lighter gutta-percha ?. — If we had laid the system to Australia over oui' old lines of cables to Australia, the MINUTES Of EVIDENCE. 57 X4 November 1913.] Sir J. Denison-Pender, k.c.m.g., Mr. W. HiBBEBDINB. and [^Oversea Communications . Post and Telegraph. cables would have been much shorter in length and they would have been very much less expensive. The new line going to the Cape was for a very much longer distance, and therefore was very expensive. 1143. I thought you said there had been the intro- duction of many stations and, therefore, you were making them at shorter intei-vals ? — No. you can see the tremendoiLS stretches (jjoiiifimj on the map). whereas the stretches here are nothinij compared with the stretches we have to make going round the Cape. im. The fact that you emphasised the inti-odue- tion of so many new stations in this remai'k you made in the paper, led me to think you were taking shorter distances ." — No, they are very long distances. 1145. There is just one other que.stioii I would like to ask. Tou spoke to-day of the very small per- centage of social messages you had. and 1 have often thought that people who wei'e compelled to send social and domestic messages are, no doubt, at a great disadvantage as com;;>Hred with those who use a code, but they are at this further disadvantage that the users of code seldom adopt words with fewer than 10 letters. The senders of domestic messages, on the other hand, are compelled to use whatever words suit their purpose ? — They are. 1146. Therefore, I wondered whether you ever thought of charging per letter, or number of letters, in- stead of per word ? — At one of the International Con- ferences a proposal was made that all charging by woi'ds should be done away with, and that we should charge by letter, so many letters, six or eight letters, I forget which, and that anyone who handed a message in should be charged for so many letters irrespective of the group being pronounceable, or not. We l^rought forward a proposal for charging combinations of 10 letters in plain language as one word ; as far as we were concerned the principle, I think, was agreed upon as being a sound principle, but when it was worked out it was foimd that it was impossil)le for the Govern- ment to agree to it. because on the Government's channel cables it is almost entirely all jilain-language business, and there are a lot of " the's " and small words in the traffic, and I think I am right in saying the estimate of loss was so great that it could not be accepted. The percentage of plain-language com- mercial which we carry is next to nothing, and the percentage of code that the Government carries is next to nothing. We should be prepared, however, to agree to the suggestion of charging by a number of letters E 20830 H 58 PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION I.— MIGRATION. Statistical Investigation on Certain Points arising out of a Memorandum hy the Dominions Royal Commission on the Effect on British Trade of Emigration from the United Kingdom, and on the Future Populations of the Various Countries of the Empire ; by E. C. SNOW, M.A., D.Sc. TABLE OF CONTENTS. Page Memorandum of Enquiry by the Royal Commission 59 su.mmauy of the chief conclusions 59 Introduction *^^* (l)to(8). On THE Association between External Trade and Migration. (1) The data available 61 (2) The method adopted. The " long period " view 61 (3) The •• short period " view .-.------------61 (4) The use of the term •■ correlation -------------- 62 (5) Correlation between fluctuations iu emigration from the United Kingdom and fluctuations in exports to and imports from (a) Australia, (b) Canada, (o) the United States t)2 (6) On the fluctuation in external ti-ade accompanying a fluctuation of a stated amount in the migration from the United Kingdom .....---.--.--63 (7) Fm-ther correlations applicable to the state in which the trade tetween the United Kingdom aad the rest of the world, other than the countries referred to ui turn, is stationary 64 (8) Genei'al conclusions on the association between external ti-ade and migration from the United Kingdom 64 (9) to (13). On the Relationship between Trade and General Prosperity. (9) The marriage rate as a symptom of prosperity .----.....-64 (10) Correlation between fluctuations in the number of marriages and fluctuations in the number of emigrants of EngUsh, Scotch, and Irish nationalities from the United Kingdom - - - - 65 (11) Association between immigration (male and female) and marriage rate in Austi'alia - - - - 65 (12) Association between (a) immigration. (6) emigration, and (c) net immigration (male and female), and the marriage rate in New Zealand -.....----..-65 (13) General conclusions on the association between migration and prosperity ------ 66 (14) Association between (a) immigration and emigration, (b) male and female emigration, and (c) male and female immigration in Xew Zealand ------------ 66 (15) Analysis of the state of agricultural employment in England .-.--... 66 (16) On production and consumption in Austi-alia and New Zealand --.---.. 67 (17) Census populations of various comitries — male and female, adults and children - - - - .69 (18) Births, deaths and migration in the various coimtries --..----..69 (19) Fertility of the populations of the United Kingdom and the Colonies .-----. 70 (20) Proportions of married people, and excess of tuimarried females -----..-70 (21) Detailed analysis *of the excess of umnai'ried females in England and Wales - . . - - 71 (22) Fertility of the native and immigrant populations in Australia ------.. 72 (23) Mortality of population in Australia according to birthplace ........ 72 (24) Mortality of population in Australia according to length of residence there ----.. 74 (25) Estimates of the populations — male and female, adults and children — of the various coimtries in 1921 aqd 1931 74 LIST OF TABLES. I. — Migratiou from and External Trade oi the United Kingdom. 1876-1911 75 n. — Census Populations Under and Over 15 since 1861 .........76 m. — Proportion of Total Population Under 15 -.-..-..-.. 77 IV.— Percentage Increase of Popttlation in Intercensal Periods ........ 77 V. — Births. Deaths, and Nett Immigration in stated Countries in Decennial Periods from 1861 . - 77 "Vl.^Birth-, Death". Immigration-, and Total Increase Rates in Decennial Periods (Based upon the Mean Popidation iu those Periods per 100) .---...... 7g VII. — Legitimate Births per l.OOO Married Women, aged 15-45 -....-.. 79 Vin. — Number of Births per Marriage in Previous Year ----..... 79 IX. — Number of Mairied Males to every 100 Total Males in Age Groups. Number of Married Females to every 100 Total Females in Age Groups ..---..... gQ X. — Excess of Unmarried Females over Unmarried Males in Age Groups ...... 81 XL— Numbersof Unmarried Males and Females between ceitain Age Limits in London Boroughs (1911), and certain Indices of Social Status - . - . . - . . . . --82 XII. — Niimlx-rs of Unmarried Males and Females between 15 and 35 iu the aggregate of Boroughs, other Urban Districts, and in Rural Districts in Counties and Divisions of Counties, 1911 - . - 82 XIIL— Birth Riite if certain Populations in Australia (1911) according to Birthplace - - - - 83 XIV. — Mortality of the Population in Australia in 1911 accordins to Birthplace - - - - - 83 XV. — Mortality of the Population in Australia in 1911 according to length of Residence - - - 84 XVI. — Limiting Rates of Increase (Percentage of the Mean Intercensal Populations) assumed for the Estimation of the Population of the various Countries in 1921 -.--.. §4 XVII. — Populations in 1!'21 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase shown in Table XVT. hold - 85 XVIIl. — Populations in 1931 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase shown in Table XVI. hold for two Intercensal Periods ---------. ....yy MK;RATin\. 59 At the end of December 1912 the Secretary to the Commission informed me that the Commissioners were desirous of obtaining information as to the results of migration from the United Kingdom on British trade, and indicated in a memorandum certain specific points on which it was desired to obtain a report. The Mem<yrandimi ivas as follows ■ — Memorandum op Inquiry as to the Effect on British Trade of Emigration from the United Kinsdom. 1. It is generally admitted (see for example the dis- cussion on emigration at the last Imperial Conference) that it is to the advantage of British trade that emi- grants leaving the United Kingdom should go to other parts <jf the British Empire rather than to foreign countries. Is this view correct, and, if so, can hgures be furnished illustrating the extent of the advantage .'' 2. There is a difference of view as to whether emi- gration from the United Kingdom to other parts of the British Empire, and in particular to Canada and Australasia, is to the advantage — (a) Of the Empire as a whole, (6) Of the United Kingdom itself. It is contended on the one hand under (a) that the emigration from the United Kingdom, even to other parts of the Empire, of desirable citizens involves net loss to the Empire by weakening the United Kingdom, which continues to bear a disproportionate share of the Imperial burden, and that the same consideration applies with still greater force as regards (6), while the emigration of undesirable citizens can be of no benefit to other jjarts of the Empire. On the other hand, it is contended that owing to the comparative scarcity of population in other parts of the Empire which have vast natural resources awaiting development, emigration from United Kingdom to those other parts benefits (n) the Empire as a whole throiigh the increased productive and consuming power of the individual in those other parts as compared with the individual in the United Kingdom, and (6) the United Kingdom itself, because the increase of the consuming power of the individual in those other parts of the Empire is so great, as on the whole to set up a greater demand for the products of the industry of the United Kingdom than would be set up if the individual remained in the United Kingdom, and liecause the pressure of population in the United Kingdom is becoming so great that the reduction of its population is in itself a desirable object, and that persons who could never become desirable citizens in the United Kingdom can become desirable citizens in the other parts of the Empire owing to the more suitable en- vironment and the wider opportunities of individual advancement which they aiford. This last ai'gxmient is particularly used, for example, in relation to the emi- gration of Poor Law children. 3. Can figures be furnished illustrating the alleged increased productivity and consuming capacity of the individual in Canada and Australia as compared with the individual in the United Kingdom, and the conse- quent effect of emigration on the trade — (a) Of the Empire as a whole, (6) Of the United Kingdom. 4. It would be of advantage if the subject could be treated separately, so far as possible, as regards the emigration of — (i) Adult males. (ii) Adult females i (both in reference to the immedi- (iii) Children j ate and the more remote future). What effect on the future population of the Empire as a whole will be caused by the emigration of men, women, and children from the United Kingdom to the Colonies ? The investigation made with the view of throwing light upon the subjects referred to in the above memo- randum is described Vjelow, but it will not be out of place to give at the beginning a brief summary of the chief conclusions which appear to be justified. 1. There is little evidence that migration directly causes increase in external trade. The relationship between them appears to be one of association merely — the waves and depressions of trade and migration occur together — and the inquir3' gives no sujjjjort to the opinion that activity in migration causes activity in trade (excej)t, of course, in so far as the emigrants themselves take British goods from the United King- dom). If emigration from the United Kingdom to, say, Canada were the direct cau.se of increase in the external trade l>etween those countries we should, on analysing the experience of the past, expect to find that waves of migration had preceded, by a little, waves of trade. Actually we find that between the United Kingdom and both Canada and the United States activity m migration and trade — thi-oughout the period 1878-1911 — practically synchronised. Activity in the export trade from the United Kingdom to Australasia appears, indeed, to have preceded migration from the former country to the latter, and only in the case of imports from Australasia to the United Kingdom did trade follow migration from the United Kingdom. Organised assistance of emigration was considerably less in the period reviewed than in the past two or three years, and under the conditions then existing activity in migration occurred, on the whole, in times of general prosperity. Left to itself migration (with the exception of that from Ireland) appears to be a l^hase of a world-wide economic phenomenon- — an indi- cation of prosperous conditions. The periodic booms in trade throughout the world require some redistri- bution of labour, and this has been effected by migration. 2. Concerning the qiiestion of whether or not it is to the advantage of British trade that emigrants from the British Isles should go to other parts of the Em- pire rather than to foreign countries no direct satis- factory statistical data have been adduced. It has teen ascertained, however, that, in the period 1878-1911 a particular ■■ dose " of emigration from the United Kingdom was associated with a greater proportional increase in trade when that emigration was to Atistra- lasia or Canada than to the United States. This does not properly answer the question proposed, since the emigration cannot be ascribed as the cause of the in- crease in trade, and, moreover, there are many other interacting factors — magnitude of population, stage of development, extent of trade with other countries, etc. — which affect the consideration of the problem. All that can justifiably be said is that the balance of evi- dence derived from the experience of 1878-1911 does not controvert the view that it is better for British trade that emigrants from the United Kingdom should go to other partsof the Empire rather than to foreign coimtries. 3. On the question of the effect of emigration on production and consumption very little general statis- tical matter can be shown. Only in the case of Aus- tralia, and for the last few years, are figures available giving measures of i^roductiou and consumption of the population and the variation in these from year to vear. In that country production and consumption per head of the popiulation have certainly increased duiiug a time of active immigration, but as this nas also been a time of general prosperity throughout the civilised world it is not possible to say if the boom in migration has been the direct cause of the increased production and consumption, or if those increases would still have taken place if the immigration had not occurred. On the whole question of the relationship between migration and general prosperity the most simple hypo- thesis to account for the fact that, under the uncon- strained conditions existing during the greater part of the period 1878-1911, migration from the United King- dom to the Colonies was associated with times of pros- H 2 60 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION :— PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : perity (except in the case of emigration from Ireland) is that migration is an important aid to commercial and industrial welfare by effecting the translation of labour to its most productive spheres. It is not justi- fiable to assume from this, however, that the artificial transportation of a considerable population to the Colonies in a time of industrial stagnation is necessarily coing to do much to accelerate the time of prosperity. 4. In the later paragraphs of this report certain of the salient census figures of the various parts of the British Isles and the Dominions are discussed, some demographic statistics having bearing on the question of the future populations of the countries are described, and calculations of those future popula- tions made on certain hypotheses of rates of increase. The most important of those pai-agraphs are probably those (20-21) in which an analysis is made of the geogra- phical distribution of the surplus of unmarried women in England and Wales. The total excess of females in England and Wales in 1911 was, as pointed out in the memorandum supplied to the Commission liy the British Women's Emigration Association [printed in Cd. 6516. p. 240]. 1.179,000. The surplus of unmarried females, however, was only 296.000. while if we deal only with persons of emigrable ages, say 15-35. the excess of unmarried women over unmarried men lie- tween those ages was only just over 7,000 (having decreased from 39.000 at the previous census). On further inquiry it does not appear that there is in England and Wales any appreciable sui-plus of women who are both of the type desired by the Dominions and can at the same time Vje readily spared by ourselves, since it is only in the localities of higher social status — the better parts of London and the suburbs and the seaside and health resorts — that the surplus exists. In the artisan and poorer parts of London and the suburbs, and in fact in industrial to^vns generally (except in Lancashire and the West Riding of York- shire, in which places there is a good deal of well-paid female labour), unmarried women between 15 and 35 are fewer than unmarried men between the same ages. The surplus of unmarried women — small, in any case — consists chiefly, therefore, of domestic servants, who can be hardly spared by ourselves, and of women of higher social status whose presence in the Dominions is not urgently needed. The tables referred to in the text have been printed at the end of the report (pp. 7.J-86). Introduction. It would be satisfactory to be able to deal with the first point raised in the memorandum of the Com- missioners — viz., upon the desirability, so far as regards trade, of emigrants from the British Isles going to other parts of the Empire rather than to foreign coun- tries — by straightforward inspection of the figures of migration, export.s, and imports. The kind of direct statistical evidence which might be expected to throw light upon the matter is that showing the trade with the United Kingdom per head of the populations of those countries to which emigrants from the United Kingdom go iu large numbers, some of these being within and others outside the Empire, Such evidence for the last three census years for two groups of countries within the Empire — Australasia and British North America — and one outside — the United States — is as follows ; — Census Year. White Population. Imports from United King- flom per he.icl of Population. Exports to United King- dom per head of Populatiou. Australasia. 1891 - 1901 - 1911 - 1 3.947,000 i 6-46 4.662,000 i 5-78 5,463,000 1 7-45 British North America 7-92 7-47 10-42 1891 - 1901 - 1911 - 5,031,000 5,59:^.000 i 7.447,000 1-44 1-46 2-73 2-51 365 3-51 United States. 189<"i - 1900 - 1910 - 55.152,000 ' 0.58 66,890,000 . 0-30 81,733,000 ' 0-38 1-76 207 1-47 Trade per head of population with the United Kingdom is certainly larger in the two places within the Empire than in the case of the United States, though, as shown in Table I, the absolute magnitude of the exports to the United Kingdom is greater from the United States tlian from either of the other coun- tries, and also the imports of British and Irish products into the United States are gi-eater than those into Canada, though not in recent years those into Aus- tralia. On the other hand. lx)th exports from the United Kingdom to the places within the Empire and imports from the latter to the former have increased at a greater i-ate than have the corresponding exports to, and imports from, the United States. The facts that tne average individual in Australia and Canada both receives more from the United Kingdom and sends more to it than the average individual in the United States, and that the trade of the two Dominions with the United Kingdom is increasing more rapidly than is tliat of the United States, would appear to substantiate the view expressed in the memorandum. Ceitainly they give no evidence controverting it. But although the view may te correct there are difiiculties in the way of accepting the above information as certain proof. The logical consequence of the argument con- cerning ti-ade per head of the population, for example, would be that it is more desirable for emigrants to go to Australia than to Canada, and. of foreign countries, to the Argentine rather than to the United States. Better information on the question would lie to ascer- tain, if possible, the effect upon trade with the United Kingdom of a particular instalment of emigration to each of the countries. The difiiculty here arises that emigi-ation to certain of the countries might have occurred most in times of prosperity, and to others more in times of adversity, and the statistical evidence drawn from the two cases would not lie comparable. In any case it would be unjustifiable, without further investigation, to assume that any particular increase in trade between two countries which took place at the same time as, or soon after, a boom in migration be- tween them was caused by the latter. It might be only a part of general trade prosperity throughout the world, and might have occurred if the migration had not taken place. For these reasons it appears better to make a detailed investigation of the relationship — as manifested by the experience of the past — exist- ing between migration and trade and general pros- perity. Accordingly the questions raised in the memorandum of the Commissioners have been dealt with under the following heads : — (i) What association between the extei-ual trade and migration from the United Kingdom can be detected from the statistics of the past 35 years ? (ii) Does any relationship exist between emigration from, or immigration to. a country and general prosperity there ? (iii) WTiat figures are available to illustrate the effect of migration on production and consumption in the coimtries of the Empire ? (iv) Consideration of the poptilation and vital statistics of various countries of the Empii-e and estimates of future populations. It has been found impossible to give adequate answers to (i) and (ii) by inspection of statistics alone. For example, in attempting to discover whether years of active emigi-ation from England and Wales have been years of prosperity (as evidenced by variations in the marriage rate) general inspection shows that the figures for some years point in one direction, and for other years in the opposite direction. In order to weigh the evidence it is necessary to determine the average experience, and this can be done by the use of the technical implement know as the -correlation co- efficient." The impossibility of making satisfactory deductions from the data by general considerations, and the illumination which the employment of the method of correlaticm throws upon the problems proposed, has been the reason, after a little hesitation, for adopting that method for the elucidation of the first two of the above questions. The conclusions to be dra-wn from the IS78 I8S0 raae isa* ises reae I890 IB92 Exports ' Thousand £. Migration Thousands Diagram 3. '^P* 'QfS "SSS I900 I902 [904 I90S 1 90S United Kingdom and United States. I. Exports from UK. II. Nett Migration from U.K. III. Imports into U.K. Exports , Thousand S. lOO Migratior, Thousands o Imports i^iihon e (S7e iBao TL E07 WBMLa 13 laas isa4 isae S90 1392 I a 94 1696 ISSa I900 fSOC ISO ISO "O Imports Million £ Diagra m 2 . 1880 lasz re 90 1892 894 1896 1900 1903 ■ 9pe 1908 Exports Million £. United Kingdom and British North America. I. Exports from U- K. H. Nett Migration from U.K. HI Imports into U.K. ^20 -18 -16 Migra hon Thousands Imports Million £. 1002 ISO* 1908 1910 Diagram I. Exports Migrstion Thousands in United Kingdom and Australasia. I. Exports from U.K. II. Nett Migration from U.K. III. Imports into U.K. Mtgration Thousands o /rnports AfiJ/ion-S. \a7B leeo laaz IS36 1893 \300 1 90S I906 l90a 1910 Imports Mfllion e. MIGRATION. 61 numerical coefficients stated are given in full in neces- sary cases, so that the fact that the technical term, " correlation," is used need cause no difficulty in reading. (i1 What association between the external teade and migration feom the united Kingdom can be detected prom the statistics op the past 35 tears? (the general conclusions formed on this question are stated in paragraph 8.) (1) The first question can be dealt with by investi- gating the relation which exists between the flow of migration and the flow of imports into, and of exports from, the United Kingdom, from and to those parts of the world to which most of our emigrants go. In the official returns three chief geographical divisions receiving those emigrants are made out : — British North America (Canada and Newfoundland); Australasia (Australia and New Zealand) ; and the United States. The net migration (i.e. excess of outward over inward passengers) to each of those regions has been tabulated for all years since 1876, and is shown in Table I. The ideal method would be to consider true emigrants only (i.e., those leaving the country with th^ intention of taking up their permanent residence elsewhere), but this — through absence of detailed statistics — camiot be done over a series of years, and the variations in the net movement of passengers have been taken to indicate the fluctuations in the activity of true emigration from the United Kingdom. This movement is compared in the following paragraphs with the variations from year to year in (i) the value of the exports of British and Irish produce to, and (ii) the total value of imports (exclusive of bullion and specie) from each of the three areas named. The figures for these exports and imports have been collected for Canada plus Newfoundland, Australia j^lus New Zealand, and the United States, and are shown for the years 1876 to 1911 in Table I. For brevity of expression in the following paragraphs the shorter names, Canada and Australia, are used instead of the fuller descriptions of the regions of which they form the predominant parts. For further abbreviation the term " migration "' is, in the same paragraphs, employed for " net movement of pas- sengers from the United Kingdom," " exports " for " exports of British and Irish produce from the United Kingdom."' and " imports ' for the " total value of the imports (exclusive of bullion and specie) into the United Kingdom." Throughout the discussion the restrictions of the data should be tome in mind. The deficiencies of the statistics of external trade are well known and need not be repeated here. This report deals solely with the statistics as they are published, the possibility that these statistics have been affected by tariffs, or other extraneous circumstances, being ignored. Moreover, they necessarily relate to prices as returned year by year, and take no account of the changes which have occurred in the general level of prices. The method employed in these paragraphs, however, is not one which can be applied only to refined and perfect data, and the imper- fections refeiTed to affect the conclusions drawn probably to a very small extent. ( 2 ) The question of the association between migration and trade may be looked at from two points of view : — ■ (a) the long period view, and (b) the short period view. For {a) we wish to know whether a wave of migration, extending over several years, between two countries is followed by a higher general level of trade between those countries than was formerly reached. For (6) we require to ascertain if a temporary spurt in migration is accom- panied or followed by a corresponding spurt in trade. Is a year in which the migration between two countries is above the average one in wliich the trade between those countries is also above the average, or is a year of activity in migration succeeded by one of activity in trade ? Both (a) and (h) are of importance, but the most reliable answer can be given to the latter. The published figures of migration and trade fluctuate so considerably from year to year that it is necessary to smooth them in some way before attempting analysis. The data are not sivffioiently extensive to warrant the labour of applying any refined method of smoothing, and for the present purpose adequate accuracy is probably attained by the process illustrated below on the figures of the migration from United Kingdom to Aus- tralia. Year. Actual Migration. (Thousands.) Migration Smoothed. (Thonsanda.) 1904 .... 1905 .... 1906 .... 1907 .... 1908 .... 1909 .... 1910 .... 1911 .... 5,2 7,3 9,9 13,9 20,4 25,2 32,7 65,8 6.1 8,0 11,3 15,3 20,4 31,6 The average of the bottom five numbers in the column showing the actual migration is 31,6, and this gives an idea of the trend of the wave of migration in the middle of the period, viz., 1909. The actual migration in that year was 25,2 thousands, so that, measured against the mean of the five years of which it was the middle, 1909 was a year of rather slack migration. This process of averaging is repeated for every five-year period, and a series of numbers obtained which, when represented graphically and joined by a curve, give a good idea of the general flow of migration throughout the period considered. The same process can be applied to the figures of exports and imports, and curves obtained showing the general course of these over a series of years. The three curves — I for exports. II for migration, and III for imports — are shown in diagrams 1. 2 and 3, for Australia, Canada, and the United States respec- tively.* By comparing the curves in any one diagram we can ascertain, in a general way, whether the course of exports or imports corresponds t« that of migration. In the case of Australia the cxirves indicate that migration and exports, on the whole, rose together between 1878 and 1884, migration fell continuously, while exports decreased appreciably between 1884 and 1894, and since 1894 a marked correspondence will be noticed — rising from 1894 to 1900, stationary for the next four years, and rising together since. In the case of the curves for migration and imports the agreement is not so marked, though since 1896 they have approximately moved together. As regards Canada the correspondence between the curves for migration and exports is seen to be very close, the oscillations in the two curves agreeing quite closely. But, as in the last case, the resemblance between the trend of migration and of imports is less marked, and in the period 1886 to 1900, while migration was extremely small, imports were rising continuously. Turning now to the curve for the United States, the same general tendencies can be made out. Exports and migration rise and fall together with fair correspond- ence, but again the trend of imports does not seem to agree so closely with that of migration. A convenient period for the comparison of the curves in the different diagrams is from 1902 to the end of the time considered. In this, for Australia and Canada, migration was rising — ^to the former country very rapidly — but for the United States migration was practically stationary. At the same time exports from the United Kingdom to all thi-ee countries rose, as did imports to the United Kingdom from Australia and (to a smaller extent) Canada, but from the United States they actually fell slightly. This might be taken as some small evidence that imports into, and migration from, the United Kingdom from and to the other British countries are more closely associated than are imports from, and migration to, the United States. (3) To investigate the possible " short period " effects of migration, we require to study more closely the figures for individual years and to take account of the deviation of the figure for a particular year * The dotted portions of the curves on the right-hand extremities are obtained by joining the last point reached in the manner above described (i.e. the aver.igc for five years of which 1909 is the centre) to the point representing the average of three years of which 191(1 is the centre. H W 62 DOMIXIOXS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: from the average of the years around it. This de\'ia- tion is represented in eaoh diagram by means of a vertical line. Thus, in the case of the figures "of migration to Australia, the average of the five years. of which 1883 was the central one, was 35,800, but the actual migration in the yeai- was 64,^100. That year, therefore, was one of extremely active migi-ation to Australia, the extent of that activity being measuredvby the deviation 28,600 above the average for the five years. Similar deviations have been worked out for every one of the years dealt with, for each of migration, imports and exports, and the state of trade and migra- tion in any year can readily be appreciated from the diagrams. A vertical line above the curve indicates that trade or migration in that year was above the average, and a line belov: the same signifies that trade or migration was below the average, the extent of the deviation being indicated by the length of the line. The problem presented can now be looked at graphically, and the association between migration and trade can be roughly appreciated by noting the number of times the corresponding vertical lines for migration and exports, and again for migration and imports, are on the same side of the curve compared with the number of times they are on opposite sides. Thus, in the case of Aus- tralia, the deviation from the migration curve and the corresponding deviation from the exports curve are on the same side for 21 years and on opposite sides for 11, and it would therefore appear that years of active and quiet migration are more frequently years of good and slack exports respectively than not. Similai'ly in the comparison of migration with imports, in 14 years the deviations are of the same sign and in 17 of opposite sign, and we cannot assert any association between actirity of migration and activity in imports. In the same way, if we wish to ascertain whether a spurt in migration in one year is folloived by an increase in exports in the next year we can count the number of times in which the deviation in the case of migra- tion in one year and from the exports in the next are of the same sign, and compare with the number of cases in which these are of opposite signs. This method, however, at the best can only give a rough idea of the degree of association and does not enable us to draw the fullest possible conclusions from the data. There are two reasons for this : (i) it does not allow of the magnitude of the deviations being taken into account, e,g., in the case of Australia the deviation of the migration in 1883 was exceedingly large and positive, but that of the exports was only just of the same sign, and m the mere counting of the corresponding deviations such a case as this is given the same weight as one in which the corresponding deviations are proportionally of the same magnitude ; (ii) it does not admit of a quantitative measure of the degree of association being made out. (4) These ditficulties can be overcome by the use of the method of correlation ; in fact, the problem appears to be admirably suited for the employment of that method, and without it no adequate solution can be looked for. This enables us to give a quantitative index to the association between the fluctuation in the migration in one year and the fluctuation in the exports or imports in the same, or the next, or the previous year, and in thiii way we can ascertain whether a boom in migration is followed, on the average, by a boom in trade, or whether it follows a boom in trade or is co-existent witli it. The technical details of the work involved in finding svoh an index need not be given here, but it may be s ated that the degree of association between two phennmena varjdng continuously is measured by a coefficient of correlation (r) which can take all values (positive and negative) between and 1, according to the intensity of the relationship existing between the phenomena. Thus if we found that the deviation in migration was always accompanied by a proportional deviation in exports — so that, knowing the former, we could exactly predict the latter — the correlation would be 1. If, on the other hand, no relationship existed between the two phenomena — so that knowing the devia- tion of the migration we could not say whether, on the averasre, the corresponding deviation of the exports were* large or small, or of the same or opposite sign — - the valu9 of r would work out to be practically z3ro. Valu3? batwsin ani 1 are founl for all the various degrees of relationship existing batween complete in- dependence and perfect association between the two phenomena. In the following sets of figures, for example — A-1 234. 5 6789 B-36 2 159847 we see that, though a knowledge of a particular figure in series A by no means enables us to state the corre- sponding figure in series B, yet, on the u-hote. the higher figures in one series are against the higher figures in the other, and the measure of the extent to which they are associated is given by the correlation coefficient, which in this case has the value 5. A negative corre- lation coefficient has the same significance as a positive one, but indicates that a rise in one variable is accom- panied, on the average, by a fall in the other. In the present problem the correlation coefficient will enable us to form an opinion from the average experience of the 30 or so years dealt with of the association between migration and trade . (5) The actual correlation coefficients which have been worked out are ; — Between the deviation of migration in one year and deviation of exports and also of imports : (a) - - - - - in the same year. (fc) - - - - - in the pirevious year. (c) - - - - . - previous year but one. (d) next year. (c) - - - - - next year but one. From the nature of the mode of smoothing adopted some of these coefficients will necessarily turn out to be positive and others negative, though if there is no relationship between trade and migation the actual values will be small. The chief object is to determine which particular hiterval gives the highest positive correlation. If we find a high positive correlation between the deviation in migration in one year and the deviations of the exports in the next we can conclude that, on the ichole. a boom in migration in one year is generally followed by an increase in exports in the next. It should be emphasised, however, that the weight to be attached to any coefficient depends upon the iimnber of observations on which it is based and upon its magnitude. In the present case the number of observations — 30 to 32 — is about the minimum number it is advisable to work with. Moreover, it must be remembered that the coefficients merely tell us the average connection between migi-ation and trade, accord- ing to the experience of the 30 years or so considered, and we must lie careful to refrain from generalising from so limited an experience. Correlations between the tiuctuationf in emigration from the United Kingdom to the countries named, and the fuc.tiiations in the crj^orts from the United Kingdom. Emigration one Year with Exports Previous year but one Previous year Same year Next year Next year but one - Austr.ilia. Canada. + •05 + ■49 + •01 -■30 + •17 -•46 — 22 + •83 -•18 -■55 Duited States. - -36 + 17 + •72 -■27 -1-2 Correlations lictn-cen the flucinatiotis in emigration from the United Kingdom to the countries named, and the fltirtiiations in the imports to the United Kingdom. Emigration one Ye.ar with Imports Australia. „ ,„ United C'""'^"- Slates. Previous year but one Previous year Same year Next year Next year but one + •19 . --18 -16 + •27 +•11 -■50 + •26 + ■38 -■30 -13 -10 -■07 + ■37 + 13 - 32 The general conclusions to be drawn from these figures are that migration from the United Kingdom is more closely associated with exports than with imports, MIGKATION. 63 and that the relationships between the United Kingdom and the United States and Canada are closer than that with Australia. A difference, too, will be noticed as regards the period at which the maximum correlation occurs. We can approximately find the period at which, on the average, a boom in migration is followed or preceded by a boom in trade by interpolating in each case between the three successive correlations which have the largest one at the centre. When this is done the following conclusions can be drawn : — Exportsfrom the TJnited Kingdom are most closely related to the Tlie maximum. migration of correlation being One year later in the case of Australia - -Ai* The same time in the case of Canada - - SS About two months after in the case nf (hf United States - - - - - -T-'J Imports into the United Kingdom are most closely related to the migratio'n of About 15 months earlier in the case of Australia -...-. -28 About 4 months later in the case of Canada 43 „ 2 „ earlier in the case of the , United States . . , . . -38 No weight can be attached to differences of two or three months only, and the most strongly supported conclusion to be drawn from the figures is that activity in migration to Canada and to the United States is quite highly correlated with activity in the export trade to those countries at the same time. In the case of Australia the flow of migration appears to have been greatest about one year after the flow of exports to Australia, but the degree of the association is only moderate. The correlations between migration and imports are not high enough to assert definitely that an appreciable degree ot relationship exists between them. So far as they go they appear to suggest that imports into the United Kingdom from the United States and Canada synchi-onize with emigration from the former country to the others, but that imports from Australia follow about one year after the flow of British and Irish emigrants to that continent. This latter conclusion, however, has the least statistical significance of any. On account of the large variations in the magnitude of migration during the period considered it might be argued that the deviation from the average should be expressed as a percentage of that average before the correlations were worked out. This is a point of some technical interest, and accordingly in two cases the corresponding results when the deviations have been expressed as percentages of the corresponding averages have been ascertained. Correlations between the percentage fluctuation from the average for migration with percentage fluctuation from the average for exports from the United Kingdom. Migration one Year with Exports Previous year but one Previous year Same year Next year Next year but one - Australia is there any evidence that activity in migra- tion precedes activity in trade. The figures support the conclusion that migration is merely a phase of an economic phenomenon. The periodic booms in trade in the civilised parts of the world require some redis- tribution of labour, and this is brought about by migration. (tjj It is instructive to ascertain the average fluctua- tion in trade which accompanied a fluctuation of a stated amount in the migration. This is given by the so-called •■regression'' of the statistician. The actual results for the years for which the largest correlations were found are stated below ; — Considering the experience of the 31 vears 1878-1911— A year in v:]iich lite JliictauHo'U in the emtgratio-n from the United Kingdom to Canada was 10,000 above the mean of tlie fig ares fo-r the Jive years of which it was the centre was, on the whole, a year in which the exports to Canada were H70,000L above the mean of those five years, and in whicli, the imports from Canada were 460,0001. above the corresponding mean. A year in which the fluctuation in the emigration from the United Kingdom to the United States was 10,000 above themeanof the figures for the five years of which it was the centre was, on the whole, a year in which the exports to the United States were 1,040,000/. above the mean for those five years, and in which the imports from the United States were 1,210,000/. above the corresponding mean. A year in which the fluctuation in the emigration from the United Kingdom to Australasia was 10,000 above the mean of the figures for the five years of which it was the centre, followed a year in which the exports to Australasia were, on the whole, 1,490,000/. above the corresponding mean, aiul was followed by a year in which the imports from Australasia were, on the whole, 920,000/. above the corresponding mean. A reference to the diagrams will assist in the ap- preciation of these statements. Keeping attention on the lines showing the emigration and the exports from the United Kingdom to the United States it is noticed that in some years the fluctuation in emigration is large and in exports is small, and in other years the fluctuation in emigration is small and in exports is large. We wish to strike an average throughout the period covered by the curve. Although there were no years in which the fluctuation in emigration was exactly 10,000, the process adopted permits us to approximate to what we should actually find if we had a number of years in which the fluctuation in the emigration was 10,000 and we found the mean of the fluctuations of the exports (or imports) for those years. These statements as to the mean fluctuation in exports or imports associated with a fluctuation of a given amount in the emigration must be interpreted relative to the average values of exports and imports in each case through the period under consideration (1878-1911). Average exports from and imports to the United Kingdom (1878-l!ill). These correlations, however, lead to the Same general conclusions as before, viz., that to Australia the flow of migration is, on the average, about a year behind the flow of exports, but in the case of Canada the move- ments synchronize. None of the figures so far obtained suggest that mi- gration directly aids the progress of exports and imports. The waves of migration and trade between United Kinu'dom and the comparatively near countries of Canada and the United States occur together, and there is no definite evidence that the wave of migration starts first, and is in any degree the direct cause of the move- ment in trade. Only in the case of the imports from Canada - United States - Australasia Exports. & 9,500,000 24,800,000 24,000,000 Imparts. £ 17,600,000 107,400,000 32,900,000 The most satisfactory comparison can be made between the figures for Canada and the United States, since the correlations for these countries were found above to be approximately the same. Taking into account the fact that in the 34 years considered the average value of the exports from the United Kingdom to the United States was between two and three times greater than the corresponding value to Canada, it appears that activity of a stated amount in migration was accompanied by a proportionally greater increase in exports to Canada than to the United States, and a similar inference can be drawn with regard to the imports. Considered in proportion to the average values over the 34 years, the figures for Australia indicate increases in the ti-ade of about the same order as those for Canada, but the fact that exports to, precede, and imports from, follow, migration to Australia H 4 t>4 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION -I'APEKS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : is to be remembered in the consideration of these figures. The circumstance that the population of the United States is about twenty times as great as that of either Australia or Canada is probably some explana- tion of this diflference, but the fact appears to be definitely substantiated that a particular increment of migration has been oh the average accompanied by a greater proportional increment in trade in the case of the two British colonies than in that of the United States. It may be useful to emphasise again, how- ever, that we have brought forward no evidence that trade accompanies migration as the effect of a cause. (7) Fuller information concerning the effect of migration from the United Kingdom to a particular country, say, Canada, would be forthcoming if the trade of the United Kingdom with the remainder of the world were in a stationary state. It may be claimed, for instance, that the relationships we have found above are due to the fact that in a period of boom migration and exports from the United Kingdom to every country are high. It would be of great value, therefore, if it were possible to select a period in which ti-ade between the United Kingdom and the rest of the world, except Canada, were stationary, and in which at the same time migration to Canada were rising. Of course, in actual practice it is not possible to choose a period during which trade between the United Kingdom and most of the world is stationary while at the same time migration to a par- ticular country is active, but by a statistical contrivance known as " partial correlation " the problem can be solved. The method by which this is accomplished need not be dis- cussed here ; it is sufficient to point out that the effect is to modify the various correlation coefficients previously found and to make them comparable with the coefficients which could actually be obtained if the trade between the United Kingdom and the rest of the world other than the countries named in turn were stationary. The figures given below should be interpreted in exactly the same way as the correlations previously given, but with the additional restriction that they refer to a state in which the particular trade concerned between the United Kingdom and the remaining parts of the world is supposed stationary. The modified series of coefficients is : — Correlations between the fluctuations in emigration from the United Kingdom to the countries named, ami the tlvcttiatio-ns in the exports from the United Kingdom u-hen the exports from the United Kingdom to the rest of the world are supposed stationary. Migration one Tear with Exports Previous year but one Previous year Same year . . . Next year . . . Next year but one - Correlations between the fluctuations in emigration from the United Kingdom to the countries named, and the fluctuations in the imports to the United Kingdom when the imports to the United Kingdom from the rest of the world are supposed stationary. Migration one Tear with Imports Previous year but one Previous year Same year Next year Next year but one - Australia. Canada. United States. + •26 -•21 —31 +•35 +•26 -•38 + •42 +•16 —32 +•04 + ■02 + •00 +•31 +•10 -•34 Taken all round these figures do not greatly differ from those given in paragraph 5 above, and when the periods at which the maximum values are reached are worked out (in the same approximate way as before) the following results are obtained : — Exports from the United Kingdom The maximum are most closely related to the correlation migration of being One year later in the case of Australia - •oS Two months later in the case of Canada - -lo Two months later in the case of the United States -l-i Imports to the United Kingdom arc The maximum most closely related to themigra- correlatioil tion of being 1.5 months earlier in the case of Australia - -40 10 months later in the case of Canada - -46 1 month earlier in the case of the United States •SI No great modifications in the correlations have been produced by the restrictions introduced in this para- graph. (S) The results found in the previous paragraphs enable the following general conclusions to be drawn concerning the relationship between external trade and emigration from the United Kingdom according to the experience of 1878-1911. (i) Exports from the United Kingdom to Canada, Austi-alia. and the United States are more closely associated with British and Irish emigration to those countries than are imports from those countries to the United Kingdom. (ii) As regards exports, Canada and the United States appear to stand in the same relationship to the United Kingdom. This relationship (•7.5) is a fairly close one. but it will be noticed that, if any- thing, exports to those countries precede rather than follow migration. In the case of Australia the association is not so high (-5), but migration to Australia appears to folloic exports there from the United Kingdom at an interval of about one year. (iii) Although the degree of association between migration and imports is not large enough to lay much stress on, so far as the figures can be definitely inter- preted they indicate that only in the case of Australia is the wave of migration from the United Kingdom followed by a return wave of imports. For the United States the two waves approximately synchronize, but the imports into the United Kingdom from Canada precede slightly the migration to the latter country. As the figures do not all point in the same direction it is not possible to draw one comprehensive conclusion concerning the effect of migration on trade, but the balance of the evidence does not favour the view that trade fallows migration, but that activity in trade — whatever its genesis- — promotes migration. This is not put forward as a universal generalisation, but is the conclusion drawn from the not entirely satisfactory data of the experience of the United Kingdom during the past 30 years or so. (ii) Does ant relationship exist between emi- GKATION PROM OR IMMIGEATION TO A COUNTRY AND GENERAL PKOSPEEITY THERE ? (The general conclusions formed (m this question are stated in paragraph 13.) (9) A very obvious point suggesting itself for investigation in the present connection is that of the association between migration and the state of employ- ment in the country over a series of years. We could pro- ceed as in previous paragraphs by tracing the figures of migration over the last 30 or 40 years and comparing with the covirse of some general index of employment throughout the same interval. The general indices of employment available, however, give but rough approxi- mations to the true state of employment, and they are subject to many extraneous influences which render their interpretation of doubtful value. After due con- sideration it appeared inadvisable to use the Board of Trade index of employment in order to detect any possible association between the state of employment in this country and emigration from it. Though the general index of employment is not satisfactory for the present purpose, there is one sign of prosperity which is very suitable for the matter in hand. It is generally accepted that the variations in the MIORATIOV. 65 marriage rate afford a couvenient barometerof the varia- tions of prosperity within a community, and in cora- paring the conditions of different countries this index is probably a much better one than the statistics of clearing-house returns, pauperism, or any of the other indices that may be used for a single country. The conditions with regard to tendency to marry are, no doubt, not precisely the same in the various countries of the British Empire, but they give a much more reliable basis of comparison than do the other indices which have been employed in previous investigations for England. The number of marriages every year is readily known for each division of the British Empire dealt with in this report except Canada. For each of England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand, the figures of marriages and of emigration or immigration have been tabulated over a long series of years and, in the manner indicated in paragraph 2, the deviation of the figure for each year, both for marriages and migration, from the average of the five years of which it is the centre determined. This deviation gives an approximate measure of the degree to which the particular year concerned was one of higli or low marriage rate and has been taken as the index of whether that year was or was not above average pros- perity. The deviation in the case of the marriages can then be compared with the deviation in the same year or in any other in the case of the migration. It is hardly necessary to set these deviations out on diagrams as was done in the case of the foreign trade in paragraph 2. What we wish to ascertain is whether a positive devia- tion in the number of marriages is accompanied, on the average, by a positive or negative deviation in the same or any other year in the case of the.migration. (10) As pointed out before, some conclusion can, in a general way, be reached by inspection. This, however, is but a rough-and-ready method, having no scientific value and permitting no sound deductions to he made. The process of determining quantitative coefficients of the degree of association between the various phenomena has consequently again been adopted, a.nd the results obtained from the data worked at can be summarised as follows : CorrelaMons between the deviations from the five-yearly averaf/e in the number of marriafjes in the respective countries and the deviation from the five-yearly average in the number of passeiiciers of the nation- ality stated to non-European countries. Number of Marriages one Year and number of Outward I'assengers Previous year Same year Next year English. I Scotch. I Irish.* (37years.) j (50 jears.) i (39 years.) ■4-18 + •49 +•06 + •05 + •33 -10 +01 -•46 •00 It would be more satisfactory to deal with nett emigration according to nationality, but the form of the published statistics of migration does not permit this to be done. Moreover '■ out-passengers " include some who are not true ernigrants. But we are concerned with the deviations and not with the absolute numbers of passengers, and a year in which the deviation of out- ward passengers is large is no doubt one in which the deviation of true emigration is also large.* We infer from the correlations stated that a year of activity in emigration from England and Wales is. on the average, a year in which the marriage rate in England and Wales is high, the correlation reaching a moderate value. In the case of Scotland the correlation is not so marked, but is sufficient to indicate some asso- ciation between the marriage rate and the flow of out- ward passengers. For Ireland a moderate negative correlation will be noticed, demonstrating that a year of high marriage rate is, on the whole, a year in which emigration is below the average. There seems no reason to suppose that the marriage rate is an inferior symptom of prosperity in the case of Ireland (the marriage rate there, measured in terms of the number of marriageable people, is considerably less than in * It should be noticed that the tigures nf migration refer to natiunaUty and not to country of last residence. But uo error is likely to arise through taking them to refer to the latter. E 20830 Great Britain) than for the other countries concerned, and the figures shown give evidence that in the period under investigation (ending in each case with 1909) for England and Wales, and to a smaller extent for Scotland, emigi-ation occurred for the most part in years of pros- perity, but for Ireland emigration was most active in years of adversity. The diiference between Ireland and Great Britain is well marked, and brings out the necessity for dealing with these countries separately in such investigations. as the present.* (11) Turning now to the consideration of the corre- sponding relationships in the case of the Colonies, we can discuss them in considerable detail for New Zealand, in less detail for Australia, and not at all for Canada. The summary of the results found for Australia is : Correlation between the deviation from the five-yearly average in the number of marriages in Australia and the correspotuling deviation in the nett immigration of (a) Males, (b) Females from 1868 to 1909. Number of Marriages one 1 (a) Males. ' (i) Females. Year ;uid Nett Immigration (42 years.) (42 years.) Previous year Same year Next year + •27 + •39 -•02 Prom these figures we deduce that the marriage rate in Australia is most highly correlated with the nett immigration of about two months before in the case of the males and thi-ee months before in the case of the females, the maximum values being -43 and 41 respectively. Without discussing the significance of these small intervals of time, the evidence points to the conclusion that, on the average, prosperity in Australia was, in the period under discussion, associated with the flow of immigration to a moderate extent. If anythinc, the marriage rate seems to have followed by a short period the tide of immigration. It is possible that a little of the correlation found is due to the fact that the immigrants include a number of persons intending to marry soon after their arrival, but the number of marriages of such people in any one year is but a small proportion of the total. (12) The New Zealand statistics of migration allow of a much more thorough discussion. Details are given of both immigrants and emigrants (in a few years the latter exceeded the former) for males and females over 12 and also for children. The correlations between the deviation in the nvunber of marriages with the deviation in the number of (i) immigrants, (ii) emigrants, and (iii) nett immigrants have been worked out in the same form as before. Correlations between the deviation from the five- yearly average in the number of marriages in New Zealand with the corresponding deviations in (i) immigration, (it) emigration, and (iii) nett immigra- tion of (a) Males over 12, and (b) Females over 12 from 1872 to 1909 :— Number of Marriages one Year and (i) Immigration — Previous year - Same year Next year (ii) Emigration — Previous year - Same year Next year (iii) Nett immigration — Previous year - Same year Next year (a) Males. 38 years. (A) Females 3S years. -01 + •38 + •27 + 12 + •32 + 16 —17 -•30 + ■26 —02 -11 + 09 + •07 + •50 + 12 + •12 + •35 + •13 We deduce from these figures that nett immigration into New Zealand was definitely associated with pros- " When we interpolate between the three I'orrelations for each luitiunality to find the period at which the maximum correlation occurs, in not one of the cases is this foun'l to differ .ippreciably from the corresponding figure given iu the second row. 6A DOMINIONS EOTAL COMMISSION : — PAPER? LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : peritv to about the same extent as in the case of Australia, and approximately to the same extent as prosperity is associated with emigration from England and Wales. The results for immigration and emigration separately indicate that the former was correlated to a fair degree with the marriage rate in New Zealand, but the latter was, if anything, negatively associated with that index of prosperity. (13) Reviewing all the results collected to throw light upon the association between prosperity (as evi- denced by variations in the marriage rate) and migra- tion we can summarise them as follows : — (i) Emigration from England and Wales iu the last 40 years has been associated to a moderate extent with prosperity in these countries. In the greater part of this period there was little organised emigration. Left to itself popula- tion appears to flow from England and Wales in good times rather than in bad. (ii) Emigration from Scotland has been to a rather smaller extent associated with prosperity in that country. The economic conditions as regards activity of industry and emigration in Scotland are. on the whole, similar to those obtaining in England and Wales, (iii) Emigration from Ireland has been associated to a moderate extent with adversity in that country. Unlike the countries of Great Britain, the flow of population has been greatest in bad times, ^iv) Nett immigration lx)th of males and females into Australia has been correlated to a mode- rate degree with prosperity in that country. If anything the marriage i-ate follows the wave of immigration, (v) Nett immigration lx)th of males and females into New Zealand has been correlated to a moderate degree with prosperity in that coun- try, while gross immigration has also, but to a smaller extent, been associated with prosperity there. Emigration of males, however, has on the -whole occurred in bad times. The general conclusion to be drawn from the results of the last thi'ee paragraphs is. as ret;ards Great Britain, similar to that stated in paragraph 8, viz., emigration occurs in times of good trade ; but the evidence does not indicate that the emigi-ation precedes or in any way causes the prosperity. In the case of Ireland, however, emigration has occurred most in times of bad trade. (14) Two other interesting matters arising out of the New Zealand figures can bt considered. In the first place the relationship between the flow of immi- gration into, and of emigration from, that country can be exhibited by the follo^ving correlations : — Correlations between the deviation from the five-yearhi average in the number or' immigranfg into, and the eorrespondimj deviation in the number of emigrants from. New Zealand for the years 1872 to 1909 : — ImmigratioE one Year with Emigration Males over 12. (3S years). FemaleR over 12, (38 years). Previous vear -•20 -14 Same vear - + 11 + 04 Next vear + •30 + •25 Next year but one + 03 + 01 We conclude from these figures that in the period under review a year of active immigration into New Zealand was followed, on the average, by one of active emigration from that country. The correlation between these waves, however, is only of a small order and little weight can be attached to it. The second matter whieh may be referred to is the connection )>etween the flow .of male immigrants and female immigrants, and also of male emigrants and female emigrants. Correlations between the deviation from the Jive- yearly average in the number of mole immigrantis {emigrants), and the corresponding deviation in the number of female immigrants (emigrants) into (from) \eic Zealand for the years 1872 to 1909 :— Immigration. Emigration. + 13 —28 + •92 + ■85 + •01 -•08 Number of Males one Year, and number of Females Previous year- Same year Next year These figures signify that the waves of male and female immigration are Idghly correlated and practically synchronize. (1-5) Although we have made no use of the general index of employment stated month by month in the Board of Trade Labour Gazette, the paragraphs given in that publication on the state of agricultm-al labour in England ailord some interesting material for analysis. This analysis was carried out iu order to ascertain if the reports summarised in those pai^agraphs afford any evidence of the existence of a surplus of agricultural labotirers in England. The statements in the Gazette relating to employment in the agricultural industry are compiled from the returns made by about 220 corre- spondents in various parts of the country, and were for many months previous to February 19l3 classified in four broad geographical divisions : Northern, Midland. Eastern, and Southern and South- Westei^n counties. Though the statements are purely adjectival and contain no figures, they nevertheless constitute a good basis for forming a general opinion of the state of employment in agriculture. In many cases information is given both for day labourers and also for permanent men. a frequent form of statement being '■ There was a good demand for ■• extra labourers .... A surplus of such men was •■ mentioned in the reports from the A. B. C. D. and E •• districts ; iu the F and G districts an insufficiency of •• men was reported. Some scarcity of tiien for per- •■ manent situations was mentioned in the U. V. X. T, •• Z districts." The statements for the 34 months ending January 1913 have been analysed and divided into two groups of 17 months for each of the four geographical divisions and for day labourers and permanent men separately. In the table of analysis the statement above was reduced, to " Day Labourers : " Surplus, 5 ; Scarcity. 2. Permanent Men : Scarcity, " .5." Not all of the statements were so readily dealt «-ith as the one quoted, but for the most part they indicated whether the supply of lalwur was equal to. in excess of. or insufficient for. the demand. The follow- ing svinxmary has been compiled from the analysis made : — NOETHERU COITSTIES. First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). Day Laboureris. Supply in nearly every case Second 17 Months (August 1911 to December 1912). said to be equal to or in excess of demand. Surplus of men men- tioned on 7 occasions, in some ctises in many districts. Permanent Men Only mentioned twice. In each case an excess of men. ^ Day Labourers. Supply in most cases said to equal demand. But surplus of men in some districts mentioned on 11 occasions and scarcity on 7 ; in one case 4 districts and in another 5 were mentioned in which^scarcity existed. Permanent Men. Only mentioned twice. In each case a scarcity of men. ktfiftAtlOJf, er Midland Cofnties. First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). Day Labourers. Supply ill most cases said to equal demand. Surplus meu- tioned on 10 occasions, in some cases in 4, .5, and 6 districts. Scarcity referred to on 3 occa- sions. Permanent Men. On 2 occasions supi^ly said to equal lemand. In 9 niontlis scarcity referred to, sometimes in 3 or 4 districts. Second 17 Months (Augu$t 1911 to December 1912). Day Labourers. In early part of this period a surplus frequently mentioned, but caused chiefly by the failure of the root crop in 1911. In the last 9 mouths of the period surplus only mentioned on 3 occasions, but scarcity in every month — twice in 7, once in 8, twice in 9, and once in 16 districts. Permanent Men. Scarcity referred to in 11 of the 17 months, the number of districts named varying from 2 to 9. Eastern Counties. First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). Permanent Men. D.iy Labourers. Supply generally said to equal demand. A surplus in 1 or 2 districts mentioned on 6 occasions. Scarcity referred to on 15 occasions, in some months in 4. 5. and 6 districts. Only mentioned twice. In each case a scarcity. Second 17 Months (August 1911 to December 1912). Permanent Men. Day Labourers. In the first 9 months a surplus announced on 8 occasions, chiefly due to the failure of the root crop in 1911. In the last 8 months a scarcity referred to on .5 occasions, in one month in 9 districts. Only noticed three times. In each case a scarcity of men. South and South-WesTebn Counties. First 17 Months (March 1910 to July 1911). Permanent Men. Day liabiiurers. Surplus observed in 8 of the months, the number of districts named varying from 2 to 10. Scarcity noticed on 4 occasions, once in 9 districts. Scarcity referred to in every month but one, the number of districts named varying from 3 to 10 and " many." * It will be noticed that the right-hand column refers to two harvest periods, and the left-hand to one only. This, however, is hardly likely to vitiate any conclusions drawn, as scarcity of men is not, on the whole, more frequently referred to in harvest months than in others. The iqipressions formed from a study of the summary ai-e : — (i) As regards permanent men. — There was un- doubtedly a scarcity of such men in the South and South-Western comities, and to a smaller extent in the Midland counties in both periods. By comparing the second period with the first Second 17 Months (August 1911 Day Labourers. Surplus noticed in 12 months, particularly towards the end of 1911, the number of districts mentioned being (5, 8, and 10. In the second half of the period scarcity referred to in 7 mouths, the number of districts varying up to (l. to December 1912). Permanent Men. Scarcity in every month but two, the number of districts named being as many as 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13 in different months. * it will be inferred that the scarcity of men is becoming more marked, and is now appear- ing in the other divisions of the country, (ii) As regards day labourers. — A survey of the summary for the first period does not lead to the conclusion that there was any general surplus or general scarcity of labour, but rather that its distribution was not ideal. In the second period there was a rather more marked scarcity of men, screened, however, by the forced unemployment produced by the failure of the root crop in 1911. (iii.) What figures are available to illustrate THE effect of migration OK PRODUCTION AND CONSUMPTION? (It)) The idea underlying this question is to ascer- tain if an emigrant moving from the United Kingdom to the Colonies increases (a) his producing power (b) his consuming power. It may be said at the outset that there are no direct statistical data bearing on this point. General considerations would, no doubt, indicate that under the modern conditions governing migration both production and consumption are increased, but from the complexity of the subject it is impossible to gather statistics which either certainly prove or certainly dis- prove this view. For an adequate answer to the ques- tion to be given it would be necessary to know the average production and consumption of a body of emi- grants from the United Kingdom before emigrating and the corresponding averages after settling in the Colonies, and it is clear that such data cannot be forthcoming. Much material on general production and oousumptiou in the United Kingdom and the various Colonies has been gathered together, but very little of it can be said to be relevant to the particular matter under discussion. With reference to the question of consumption, the approximate amounts of certain staple commodities consumed in certain Bi'itish (Countries are known for a series of years. The statistics of individual commodities, however, are of little value in the present inquiry. For example, in New South Wales between 190.5-t5 and 1909-10 the consumption of flour, oatmeal, and rice per head diminished from 2.51 to 238 lb., but that of butter increased from 22-1 to 2-5-4 lb., and no opinion can be formed from such facts as these on the tendency of consumption in general. For proper comparison it is necessary to employ some general index of con- * It is stated that the scarcity of men is frequently for work, e.g., milking, requiring Sunday labour i 2 68 DOMIXIOSS BOYAL COMMlSSiOS' i — PAPERS LAtD 6EF0RE THE COMMISSlOS : sumption which will allow of the variations in the con- sumption of nil commodities being taken into account. Such an index is shown for the years 1880-1011 in the recent " Report of Commission on the Cost of Living in New Zealand " (1912) and is given below. A similar index, too, is discussed in the lately published " Prices, Price Indexes, and Cost of Living in Australia'' (No. 1). issued by the Commonwealth Bureau of Census and Statistics (Lalx)ur and Industrial Branch), but the indexes there are given only for 1911 and the quinquen- nial periods 1903-7, 1905-9, and 1907-11. For Canada no such indexes can be formed ; for the United Kingdom approximate indexes could lie found by means of the figures of imports and exports and the agricultural retiu-ns for a number of commodities over a series of years, but would involve a large amount of labour. This labour would not be repaid by the light the results would throw upon the problem in hand, since (1) it is necessary that the bases upon which the indexes for different countries are formed should be the same — i.e., if we take l,OO0 to represent the general consumption per head in the United Kingdom in 1911 and the same figure as the index for Australia in that year, we must ensui-e that the 1.000 in each case refers to the same amotmts of consumption, (2) the index gives only the average measure of consumption over the whole popu- lace in a particular country, and it is unwarranted to assume that the emigrant population from the United Kingdom is drawn from that particular portion of the Ijeople with average consuming power. Even assuming that the conditions indicated in (1) and (2) are satis- fied, the fact that in a year in which a large number of emigrants are removed from the United Kingdom to Australia the index of consumption per head was, say. 900. and in the next year it rose to 920. while the corresponding index for Australia increased from 950 to 970, cannot lie taken as certain evidence that the mi- grants increased their consuming power. For these i-easons the only indexes of consumption per head which are given here are those already published for New Zealand and Australia. The New Zealand figures (to- gether with certain other interesting statistics) are : * Index of Xett Index of Index of Bank- ruptcy Plate. Index of Volume Tear. Con- sumption per Head. Immi- gration. Marriage Rate. of Liquor consumed per Head. Thousands 1880 102 7-2 104 411 1881 123 1-6 103 396 — 1882 144 3-5 109 356 — 1883 131 100 106 412 — 1884 123 9-3 106 205 — 1885 122 4-5 103 233 119 1886 112 11 93 246 113 1887 104 1-0 93 230 109 1888 97 -9-2 93 195 110 1889 98 0-2 92 165 97 1890 95 -1-8 95 142 108 1891 95 -3-2 94 130 105 1892 ,108 50 96 107 107 1893 108 10-4 96 100 103 1894 106 2-3 95 129 97 1895 103 0-9 99 96 95 1896 111 1-5 96 80 90 1897 121 2-8 95 79 93 1898 122 2-7 95 74 94 1899 125 1-9 92 70 98 1900 146 1-8 94 56 103 1901 160 6-5 96 39 108 1902 155 80 95 34 105 1903 174 11-3 97 31 107 1904 183 10-4 99 41 106 1905 171 9-3 100 47 102 1906 187 12-8 99 52 107 1907 196 5-7 loo 53 113 1908 196 14-3 100 61 114 19(j9 171 4-7 100 71 104 1910 191 3-4 96 60 107 1911 195 4-2 — — The Australian figures (together with certain statis- tics of the deposit banks) are ; — * 1903-7 1905-9 1907-11 1 1911 Index of consump- tion of 16 arti- cles 876 903 943 1,000 Index of numlier of depositors per 1.000 of population 790 845 912 1,000 Index of aver- aire amount of deposit - 865 900 951 1,000 Index of deposit per head of population 685 762 869 1,000 Average nett im- migration (thou- sand ) -51 50 26-3 69-3 The feature of the figures in the table for New Zea- land is that the index of consumption was lowest in that period (1887-1891) in which 13.000 more people left the country than entered it, and that in the years of the present century, with a considerable influx of immi- grants, the index of consumption has reached very high values. In the case of Australia the index rose with the volume of immigration. In each country the evidence associates a h/i/h index of consumption with, active immigration. This does not. however, justify the assmnption that the activity in immigration is, to any extent, the cause of the increase in consumption, and in the light of the results previously found upon the asso- ciation between migration, trade, and general prosperity, it is more logical to assume that the boom in migration and the higher consumption are merely separate indica- tions of general prosperity. When we come to consider the question of the effect of migration on production in the various countries the difficulties are greater, and the material more sparse. The Summary of Commonu-ealth Production Statistics, published annually during the past few years, contains much information concerning the production of indi- vidual commodities and articles of commerce. But, again, it is necessary to use a general index of total production per head, and such indexes have only been given for the vears 1908-11. The latest available figures are (Bulletin No. 6 (1902-11), p. 106, No. IX.): Total Mid-year Total Pro- Total Produc- Year. Total Pro- duction Produc- tion less duction. less Manu- tion per Manu- factures. Head. factures per Head. (000) (£000) (£000) £ £ 1906 4,060 — 115,850 28-5 1907 4,124 — 129,871 31-5 1908 4,194 164,957 128,320 39-4 30-6 1909 4,275 174,583 134,385 40-8 31-4 1910 4,370 187,734 142,136 43-0 32-5 1911 4,490 188,745 137,814 42-0 30-7 * A Parliamentary Paper giving " Consumption of Articles in Commjn Use" per head of population was issued in Isew Zealand in iyi2— Session II,, H -9. The figures of total production per head fluctuate from year to year, but there appears to have been an increase in total production per head during a period of growing immigration. As regards New Zealand, the annual volume of •• Statistics of the Dominion of New Zealand " has a whole section devoted to production statistics. This contains much information upon agricultural produc- tion, and also upon the output of many individual industries. It gives no general index of production for * The actual amounts consumed per head of 16 commo- dities and the corresponding indexes are given in full on p. 85 on the report " Prices, Price Indexes, and Cost of Living in Australia," previously referred to. illGftAttO*^. m the whole country year by year, however, and conse- quently throws no direct light upon the present subject. For Canada, certain bulletins of the census of manufactures and the census of dairy industries for the year 1910 have been published, but those upon other parts of agricultural industry have not yet teen issued. The census of manufactures gives figures showing the production at .5-yearly intervals, but no direct compari- son of the total production of Canada with the course of migration is possible, and the figures need not he considered here. Nor can anything definite concerning the total production per head, and its relation to emi- gration, be shown for the United Kingdom. Details of agricultural production are known. Vjut the recent report of the Census of Production is the first attempt to determine the aggregate production of the manufac- tures of England and Wales, and the results afford no material for the discussion of the problem in hand. To sum up the results of the investigation carried out in this section : there are no proper statistical data to enable a well-grounded opinion to be formed of the increase in consuming and producing power of emigrants when removed from the United Kingdom to the Colonies. The little evidence which the Australian and New Zea- land statistics afford indicates that consumption per head rises in times of active immigration, and is low when immigration is slack. There is just a little evi- dence, too, favouring the view that production per head in Australia increases with immigration. These con- clusions are quite consistent with the results previously found upon the association tetween migration and prosperity, and do not necessarily demonstrate that the activity in migration is to any extent the cause of the increase in production and consumption. (iv) The population and vital statistics op THE VARIOUS COUNTRIES. AND ESTIMATES OF FUTURE POPULATIONS. (17) In this section the population and. vital statis- tics of the various parts of the Empire previously dealt with are discussed. In addition to the actual census figures published at decennial periods, certain aspects of the fertility and mortality figures of the different countries are important in connection with estimates of future populations, and although it is not possible to take into account every one of these figures in the attempts made later on at estimating the future popula- tion of the various countries, their consideration will he of some service. Table II. shows for England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, the actual census populations (in most cases) since 1861, both for males and females, distinguishing adults from children. The age 15 has been taken as the division between these ; this was necessary in order to obtain uniform figures, since in some early census reports quinquennial age-groups alone are employed. Table III. shows for each country and census the proportion of the population under 1.5 to the corre- sponding total population, and Table IV. the increase in the various populations in the intercensal periods. The points to be noticed in these tables are : — (i) In every country the proportion of males and females under 15 to total males and females is diminishing. (ii) The proportions for males are no higher in the Colonies than in the old countries of the United Kingdom. (iii) In England and Wales, and in Scotland, be- tween 1861-71, and again tetween 1871-81 (except the males in Scotland) the population under 15 increased more rapidly than did that over 15. The falling birth and death rates have teen chiefly responsible for a complete change, so that in the last two decennia the popiilation. over 15 increased alwut three times as fast as the younger population. In Ireland the loss of population during the past 30 years has teen proportionally greater at ages under 15. The figures for the Colonies fluctuate considerably, but the same phenomenon of a diminishing rate of in- crease of the child i^opiilation is evident. New Zealand appears to have picked up considerably in the last decade, the increase in the chUd population in the previous one having teen negligible. (18) To show in detail the means by which the various increases in population have accrued Tables V. and VI. have teen drawn up. Table V. shows the numters of births, deaths, and nett migration for intercensal periods, teth for males and females, for each of the countries except Canada.* For Australia and New Zealand the nett migration in the lO-year periods are given directly from ofiBcial sources. For the United Kingdom, however, these have teen esti- mated from a knowledge of the census populations and the births and deaths registered. The estimates are probably not quite exact, but are suflicient for the present purpose, and have been given to the nearest thousand only. Table VI. shows the birth-, death-, migration-, and total increase rates in each case. These are based upon the mean of the census populations at the teginning and end of the periods referred to. The points brought out by these tables are : — (i) The rate of increase of the population in the whole of that portion of the Empire under consideration was appreciaVjly greater iu the latest decade than iu the previous one — for males the rate of morease rose from 101 per cent, to 12-5 per cent., and for females from 10-4 per cent, to 114 per cent. The large excess in the rate of increase of males in 1901-10 over females is conspicuous, aa in all previous periods the rates of increase of males and females had been approximately the same. The only individiml country in which a considerable change in the relative rate of increase of males compared with females occurred was Canada. Had the male population there inci-eased at the same rate as the female, the effect on the population of the aggregate of the countries would have teen that the rate of increase of the males was reduced to te practically the same as the females, as was actually the case in pre- vious decennia. This is some evidence that Canada received an excess of males from places outside the Empire, and is no doubt accounted for by the influx of farmers and others from the western provinces of the United States.f * The numters of births and deaths in Canada are not known tor every year, but only for census years. For the province of Ontario, however, the numbers of births and deaths registered every year are known. f On the question of the migration between Canada and the United States tlie following figures from the United States Immigration Reports are of interest : — Movement peom Canada to United States. — U.S. Citizens. Canadian Citiijena. Others. Total. 1911-12 1910-11 1909-10 38,317 31.432 22,8.32 42,649 44,439 44,340 26,977 29,641 27,356 109,943 105,512 94,528 Movement pbom United States to Canada. 1911-12 1910-11 1909-10 U.S. Citizens. 97,951 74,197 78,697 Canadian Citizens. 20,086 17,078 1.5,023 Others. 2.5,214 28,478 22,477 Total. 143,251 119,753 1 1 6,377 The question of analysing the movement of population Ijetween Canada an:! the Uniteil States is a ilillioult one. From a special inquirv referred to in the report fiu- the year ending June 19ii9, it was inferred that not less than three- sevenths of the so-called Canadian citizens referred to above w-ere originally American citizens returning to the United States after sampling Canada. At the same time, however, it appears that I he movement into Canadaexceeds that out of it. The recently issued bulletin of the oeususof Canada on " Origins of the People" throws no light upon the increase iu the num- ber of natives of the United States domiciled iu Canada. I 3 <ll boMINins,^ ROYAL OOMMlSSloV !— P\PEas LAtD BEFORE THE COMltlSSIOK : (ii) The fall in the birth and death rates has been general throughout aU the countries. In New Zealand the decline in the former — which was very rapid between 1881 and 1901 — appears to have been arrested, and more exact material given later on indicates that a similar point is being reached in Australia. The figures in Table VI., however, are given solely to show in what manner the increase in population accrues, and are not intended to represent correct indices of fertility. These are arranged in Tables VII. and vin. (iii) The apparent paradox that whereas in the United Kingdom the male birth rate is greater tiian the female, while in Australia and New Zealand the reverse is the case, is explained by the fact that there is an excess of males in the last two countries but of females in the United Kiug- dom. The rate of increase due to births in Ireland is low, but this is accounted for by the small proportion of married people (see Table IX.). The rate of loss due to death is much smaller for Australia and New Zealand than for the United Kingdom. (iv) The total rate of increase is diminishing in England and Wales and. with fluctuations, also in Scotland and the Australasian Colonies. The drain of population which had been manifest in Ireland for many years, appears to have been arrested since the openiug of the present century. In Canada, after three decades of declining rate of increase, a very considerable rise has occurred since 1901. (v) Taking the aggregate of the countries referred to in Table V.. it will be noticed that the bii'th and death rates over the whole have steadily diminished, and that in each decade there was an excess of emigration from those countries. The rate of increase, both for males and for females, when Canada is included, has never fallen below 10 per cent, of the mean population in 10 years, and during the past 30 years has risen rather than fallen. The figures of the total population included vfithin all the countries at the past five censuses, together with the corresponding rates of increase on the mean intercensal populations are : — Census. 1871 1881 1891 1901 1911 Total Population. (000.) Rate of Increase on Mean Population per cent. 37,089 41,950 46,367 51,378 57,890 1871-81—12-3 1881-91—10-0 1891-1901-10-2 1901-1911—11-9 The correspondmg increases in the case of the United States were 26-2, 22-1, 189 and 19-4 per cent, respectively, the population at the last census (1910) being 91,972,000. (19) The figures given in Table VI. are sufficient to demonstrate that the rate of increase of the population by means of births is diminishing, but do not accurately disclose the true state of aifairs as regards the decline in fertility of the people. As this is important in connec- tion with the future population of the Empire, it is discussed in some detail in this paragraph. The xisual method of measuring the fertility of a jjarticular popu- lation is by ascertaining the number of children bom to 1,000 married women of child-bearing ages. Table VII. shows the number of legitimate births per 1,000 married women between 15 and 45 for as many countries and States as possible for each census year from 1861. The most striking feature of this table is the fall in the fertility rate for England and Wales. Scotland, and the Australasian colonies smce 1881, and the fact that there has been practically no decline at all among the Irish women. A further point to be noticed is that the fall in Australia appears to have been arrested during 1901-1911, in which period it continued unabated in Great Britain. The married women of England and Wales in 1911 had the least fertility of these in any part of the Empire under consideration, and the Irish women the greatest. It would be of great interest to know if this higher birth rate among women of Irish birth is general all over the world. No adequate answer can at present be given, but the pomt is referred to Ijelow. Certainly in England the towns with the largest proportions of Iiish population show the higher fei'tility rates. The fact that the actual fertility of Irish women is large while the rate of increase by births is low, is explained by the low proportion of married people in Ireland {see Table IX.). Another convenient way of indicating the relative fertility rates in ditt'erent countries and their course over a series of years is by means of a table showing the number of births in each census year per marriage in the previous year. This is given in Table VIII., the figures referring to total number of births. The number of births per marriage has fallen most in New Zealand and Australia, and least in Ireland. In 1911 it was approximately the same in England and Wales as for the Australasian colonies. (20) For the full interpretation of the figures in the last paragraph the corresponding marriage rates must be considered. The most satisfactory way of doing this is to show the proportion of mai-ried men and women to the corresponding total numbers in certain age groups. Table IX. gives these figui-es for the parts of the United Kingdom and the Australasian colonies for the last two censuses. The corresponding proportions cannot be given for Canada. The feature brought out by Table IX. is the exceed- ingly low proportion of married people in Ireland. For males, at the age group 20-25, the proportion of married men in England and Wales is three times as great as that in Ireland, and is considerably higher than that of any of the other countries. At ages 25-35 the proportion in England and Wales is twice as great as that in Ireland, and again considerably in excess of that of each of the other countries. The differences become less marked at older ages, but still exist. Turning to the figures for females, the proportion in England and Wales is, on the whole, slightly less than those in the Colonies, but is, in the early age groups, twice as great as the corresponding one in Ireland. In comparing the figures for 1911 with those for 1901. a diminution in the proportion of married people — both males and females^ — is manifest in England and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, but for Australia and New Zealand the proportion increased. The proportions in the Australasian colonies, however, are still considerably less than those obtaining in Great Britain. In reading Table IX. the excess of females in England and Wales and of males in the Colomes must be borne in mind. Figures to illustrate this point have been collected in Table X. This shows the excess in the number of vinmarried females over unmarried males in age groups at the censuses of 1901 and 1911 for each country (except Canada), and for the urban and rural districts of England and Wales separately in 1911. Bearing in mind the fact that the age at marriage for women is generally less than that for men, Table X. is, nevertheless, instructive and rather modifies some genei-al impressions. In 1911 the number of immarried females in England and Wales between 15 and 55 exceeded the number of men between these ages by 189,700, but this was practically all accounted for by the ages over 35. In fact, between 20 and 30 there was an actual excess of unmarried males in Eng- land and Wales of 33,600. The details for urban and rural districts indicate that the surplus of males was entirely in the rural districts (76,500 between 20 and 30), the females exceeding the males in the urban districts MIGRATION. 71 to the extent of 42,900. Domestic service, of course, accounts for much of this difference, but the figures have bearing upon the subject of the migration of young unmarried women to the colonies. In this con- nection it may bo appropriately noticed that the excess of unmarried females between 15 and 35 diminished from 38,900 in 1901 to 7,100 in 1911, while between 35 and 55 there was a corresponding increase from 127,600 to 182,600. The feature of the figures for Ireland is that they show an excess of immarried males at every age group, and in this respect that country resembles the Colonies. For Australia the excess of un- married males between 15 and 35 grew from 108,700 in 1901 to 123,700 in 1911. and for New Zealand from 19,700 to 38,700. The columns giving the totals for the whole of the countries concerned are interesting. They show that the total excess of unmarried males between 15 and 35 increased from 165,800 to 248,300 between 1901 and 1911, while at the same time the surplus of un- married females between 35 and 55 expanded from 52,300 to 99,700. (21) In view of the opinions frequently expressed (see, for example, the answers to questions 981-990 and No. 17 { (c) on p. 240) in Appendix II. in the Minutes of Evidence taKen by the Commission in London during October and November 1912 [Cd. 6516]) upon the exist- ence in England and Wales of a large surplus of women suitable for emigration to the Dominions a more detailed analysis of the statistics is <lesirable. These opinions, it may at once be pointed out, rest upon a superficial perusal of the statistical evidence and are not supported by a more thoi-ough investigation. As shown above, in spite of the considerable excess in the number of females ovei' males in England and Wales the surplus of unmarried women of emigrable ages (say 15-35) over men between the same ages is quite small,* and it is indicated below that even this small surplus is not of the type that is urgently required by the Colonies and can at the same time be spared by om'selves. Fiu'ther results from the recent census will be required before a perfectly complete analysis can be made, but sufficient data already exist to show that the geographical distribution of the excess accords generally with the distribution of social status. In the better-class districts the surplus of women is most pronounced, while in the poorer districts there appears to be an appreciable surplus of unmairied men between 15 and 35. In the case of the Loiidcm boroughs this can be amply demonstrared. The difficulty is to get an adequate measure of social status, but two of those used by Heron are quite satisfactory for the present pui-pose. These are, (a) the proportion of professional men per 1,000 occupied males, and (b) the number of domestic servants per 100 families. Table XI shows these for each of the London boroughs for 19(Jlt together with the number of unman-ied males and females both between 15 and 35 and also between 35 and 55 at the census of 1911, and the coiTCsponding surpluses. The two criteria of social status agree fairly well, but the chief point brought out by the table is that there is no excess of young unmarried women in the poor boroughs of the east and south-east of London. The sui'plus in London is wholly in the more wealthy parts, and consists largely of domestic sci-vants — a * Even if, lemeiubering tL;at the average age at marriage of men in the whole of England and Wales is between a year and a half and two years higher than that of women, we compare unmarried women (15-35) with unmarried men (17-37) the excess of women is only about 500,000 instead of the 1,179,000 referred to in the Memorandum of the British Women's Emigration Association. This figure, however, is apt to be misleading unless it also be remeinbered thai the difference in age at marriage between men and women in the upper classes is much greater than in the classes with which the emigration societies chiefly deal. In the artisan and labouring classes the difference is mach less than in the professional and commercial classes. Moreover, the facts brought out with regard to the distribution according to social status of the surplus of women (15-35) over men (15-35) will still hold with regard to the surplus of women (15-35) over men (17-37). + Taken from Dr. Heron's memoir ''On the Relation of Fertility in Man to Social Status " (1906). F.dii.lnii, Uulau & Co. scarcity of whom already exists in this country — and probably to a smaller extent of better-to-do women, whose emigration the Dominions do not vitally need. The places in the table can readily be arranged in three grotips according to social status — Group I, con- sisting of the first 10, Group II, of the next 9, and Group III, of the last 8. T.he details concemiug these groups are : — Group I. ' Group II. 1 Group III, ? ^ , e^ I -r ■c „ _ ,*- w' « ^' - " c ij •S! B 1 - _; r- cj r- cj to rt != — S 3 => = Fi — — 5 n - H < n 1^ i^ 5^ SS D D ^ D P ■f. -' D Id Thousands. In Thousands. In Thousands. 15-20 48,8 fi3,6 11,8 80,3 84,1 3,8 58,3 57,5 — 0,8 -25 48,0 71,5 23,5 68,8 69,8 1,0 13,1 39,9 - 3.2 -30 30.1 51,3 21.2 40,5 39,4 — 1,1 23,2 17,0 — 6,2 -35 1(!,1 31,3 15,2 20,8 22,3 1,5 12,0 8,0 -4,0 -10 10,2 22,1 11,9 12,3 15.4 3,1 7,6 4,8 — 3,S -i5 7,0 lfi,4 9,4 8,4 11.4 3,0 5,6 3,4 — 2,2 -50 5,3 12,8 7,5 6,1 8,8 2,7 4.2 2.6 - 1,6 -•■30 4,2 9,3 .5,1 74,7 4,3 6,7 a,4 3,3 2,0 — 1,3 15-35 143,0 217,7 210.4 21.5,6 5,2 136,6 122,4 —14-; 35-55 26,7 60,6 33,9 31,1 42,3 11,2 20,7 12,8 - 7,9 It will be noticed that while there were at the date of the census, 1911, in the whole of London, 66,000 more unmarried women than unmarried men between 15 and 35, this surplus was more than accounted for by the better parts, and that in those places where factory and home work are common, there wasanactual excess of more than 14,000 in the number of unmarried men over unmarried women between those ages. These fio'ures give no countenance to the view that there are in London many thousands of unmarried women who could, with general advantage, be removed to the Colonies, Similar conclusions follow from the study of the figures relating to outer London, The census volume referring to age and conjugal condition, gives details for only 15 localities in outer London (counting Southend in this category), and these readily admit of division into two groups according to social status (the actual criterion adopted iu the division was the corrected birth-rate, which has been demonstrated to give a good measure of social status). East Ham, Leyton, Walthamstow, West Ham, Edmonton. Eutield, and Tottenham form a lower group, and Ilford, Southend, Acton. Ealing, Hornsey. Willesden. Croy- don, and Wimbledon an upper group. The figures for these groups are : — Upper Group, Lower Group. Age Period, Men. Women- Surplus Women. Men. Women. Surplus Women. 15-20 27,1 34.7 7.6 42,8 42.9 11,. -25 22,0 30.5 8.5 30.1 29.7 - 0.4 -30 13.2 18,8 5,6 15,5 13,9 -1,6 -35 6,5 11,1 4.6 7,2 7,1 -0,1 -40 3.6 7,9 4,3 4,2 4,4 0,2 -45 2,3 5,8 3,5 2,6 2,9 0.3 -50 1,5 ■t,4 2.9 1,8 2,3 0,6 -55 1,2 3,3 2.1 1.2 1,5 0,3 1 5-35 fi8,fi 95,1 26,3 95,6 93,6 - 2,0 35-55 8,6 21,4 12,8 9,8 11.1 1,3 The difference in social status between these two groups is not so great as between Group I, and Group III. of the London boroughs, but the same tendency of the segregation of the surplus mi married women into the better parts is manifest. In spite of the considerable extension of women labour in fat^^tories of recent years and the consequent scarcity of domestic 1 4 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : —PAPERS LAID BEFORK THE COMMISSION: servants, there is an actual deficiency of unmai-ried women (compared with men of the same age) in those places from which the female factory workers are drawn. The tigures pu'ilished by the census authorities do not permit us to ascertain the extent to which there is an excess of immarried females in all the seaside and other health resorts. Details ai-e known, however, for seven of these places — Brighton, Eastbourne, Hastings, Bom-ne- mouth, Bath. Southport. and Blackpool — and these admit of the following summaiy (in thousands) : — 15- 20- 1 25- 30- 35- 40- 45- 50- 30- 3.V - ,20. 25. ' 30. 1 35. 40. 45. 50. 55. 35. 1 55.- Men - 17,8 14,0 8,1 4,4 2,4 2,0 14 10 443 68 Wo- 25,0 23,0 i5;j 10.1 8,1 6.4 54 44 734 243 men , Excess 7,2 9,0 7^ 5,r 5.V 4,4 4,0 3,4 29,1 17,5 of Wo- men - 1 The siu-plus of uuman-ied women between 15 and 35 in the seven towns amounted to over 29,000. Enough examples have been given to show that the surplus female population of England and Wales is not of the sort which can be readily emigrated withgenei'al advantage. It may be useful, however, in this connection to show the number of immarried males and unmarried females between 15 and 35 in each county or division of comity for which figures are available*, and this has been done in Table XII. for the aggregate of the metro- politan and county boroughs, the remaining ui'ban districts, and the nu-al districts in each di%'ision or county. The compilation of the table has been done thi'oughout to the neai-est hundi-ed, but the figures shown arc quite accui-ate enough for all pi-actical piu'poses. It will l>e noticed that as regards i-ural districts only in the counties of Middlesex, Surrey, and Westmoreland ai'e the females in excess. Besides the metropolitan districts, the urban localities in which the surplus of females is most marked are in Lauca.shire. the West Riding of Yorkshire (in Ixith of which there is much well-paid female labour), and in Gloucestershii-e. A siu'plus of males in urban districts is prominent in the mining coimties of Durham and Glamorgan and in Hampshire and Staffordshire. (22) Before discussing in detail certain mortality figures there is one other aspect of the birth-rate pro- blem which may be referred to. This concerns the relative fertility of the native and immigrant popu- lations living in the Colonies. The only available data upon this are derived from the Annual Reports on " Population and Yital Statistics " of the Australian Commonwealth. To avoid possible errors it is necessary to deal only with the figures for a census year, and those for 1911 have been analysed. In the bulletin of the Commonwealth census of 1911 relating to birth- places of the population, the numliers living in each (juinquennial age period both of males and females are shown according to birthplace. It is desirable to know the actual number of married women instead of the total number of women, but this information has not yet been published. As there may be differences in the proportions of married people according to birthplace, the analysis below can only be considered approximate. Table XIII. shows the number of men and of women between certain age limits according to birthplace at the Australian census of 1911. the total number of births to each group in 1911, and the corresponding birth-rates. For convenience of inspection the table has been condensed to the following form ; — Birthplace. Number of Women, 1 5-4.1. Number of Women, 20-10. Number of Births.' Women, l.i-45. Births pel Births per ,. , v- i. lilii lOll Number i Ji umber Women, 20-40. of Men, 2U-45. of Men, 20-55. Number "^i"''^, P" "?''"'' »*" loo Men, 10" Men, 20-45. I 20-5.">. of Births. United Kingdom 81,784 i Australasia- - j 936,505 Cei-tain Foreign Countries - [ 5,205 58,241 624,626 3,762 9,339 11-4 161 117,699 190,874 14,439 12-2 110,973 11-9 17-8 714,297 856,569 97,073 13-6 822' 15-8 1 21-9 13,102 19,036 1,538 117 1-0 11-3 81 In commenting upon these figures the important restriction that the populations are not those of married men and of married women must be emphasised. But the figures do enable us to say if the peoiple of any particular birthplace produce a proportionally greater number of children. It appears that the Italian and German women in Australia in 1911 had the greatest birth-rate, and the women from the United Kingdom the least. The men of Italy and the United States, however, have quite low birth-rates. Not much stress should be put upon these tables, and they should be repeated when the information concerning the number of married men and of married women is available. (23) With regard to the mortality in the various countries certain figures have already been given in Table VI. This shows the crude death rates for a number of decennial periods, and indicates that the rate of loss by death in Australia and New Zealand is con- siderably less, Ixith for males and females, than the corresponding rates of loss in the different parts of the United Kingdom. This is to some extent accounted for by the fact that mortality is chiefly dependent upon age, and that the Colonies have a rather smaller propor- tion of old people than have the countries of the United Kingdom. The following figures, relating to the censuses of__1911, refer to this point: — Peoportion of Total Population in Age Groups. . Country. Under 1 5. 1.5-35. 35-55. 55-75 Over 7."i. England and Wales •31 •34 ■23 ■10 ■02 Scotland •32 •34 •22 ■10 ■02 Ireland •30 •32 •21 ■14 ■03 Australia •32 ■36 •23 •08 ■01 New Zealand - ■31 •38 •21 •09 ■01 * All the counties in South Wales, other than Crlamorgaii- shire. have been grouped together, and likewise all the connt.cs in North Wales. The only point in connection with mortality which has been investigated in detail is that of the relative death rates of the native and immigrant populations in Australia. The fact that the native population in the New England States of America (viz.. Maine, New Hampshire. Yermont. Massachusetts. Rhode Island, and Connecticut) has a lower mortality than the English, and especially the Irish, immigrants has been MIGRATION. 73 commented upon by those dealing with mortality figures, and the volumes of Australian vital statistics enable light to be thrown upon the experience of the Commonwealth in this respect. The problem is not a simple one, since in all mortality investigations it is essential to make allowance for age effects, and the immigrant population in Australia diifers vastly in age distribution from the native population. In order to have the fullest possible information on the question it is necessary to consider the mortality only for a census year, and 1911 is the only one for which the figures are available. The manner in which an adequate comparison of the mortality of the Australian natives and the immigrants can be effected is as follows : — Taking the death-rate of the population of the whole of the Commonwealth aged 15-19, and multiplying by the number of people between those ages in Australia who were born in the United Kingdom will give the numljer of deaths (t?,) which would have occurred in that immi- grant group if they had suffered the same rate of mortality as did the whole population of the Commonwealth. If the actual number of deaths (D,) among the immigrants aged 15-19 from the United Kingdom were appreciably greater than (d,), we could argue that the particular immigrant poiJulation suffered from a heavier mortality than the native population. A similar process can be applied to the age-groups 20-24, 25-29, and 30-34, and numters d.,, d-,, and d^ obtained to indicate the deaths which would have occurred if the immigrants in those age-periods had suffered the general mortality, instead of their actual mortality which gave rise to deaths numbering Dj, D.„ and T), in the three groups respec- tively. Then if the sum Di + Do-l-Dj-t-Dj is appreciably greater than d^ + d.y + d^ + d^ it would be inferred that the immigrant population 15-35 had a heavier death rate than the corresponding native group. Table XIV. shows the actual number of deaths and also the number which would have occurred on the basis of the standard experience of the whole Commonwealth for the age- groups 15-34 and 35-64 for the men and women bom in the stated countries and Colonies. Grouping the figures in this table we derive the following general outline ; — 1 5-34. 35-64. Birthplace. Actual • Number of Deaths which Actual Number of Deaths which Number would have occurred if the Index of Number would have occurred if the Index iif of Mortality of the Standard Mortality. of Mortalitv of the Standard Mortality. Deaths, Population applied. Deaths. Population applied. MALES. United Kingdom 392 303 129 3,166 2,972 107 Australasia 2,467 2,683 92 4,023 4,621 87 Germany, Italy, & United States - 35 36 97 1 239 256 93 FEMALES. United Kingdom 179 178 101 1,715 1,597 107 Australasia 2,bll 2,570 102 3,321 3,380 98 Germany, Italy, & United States - 8 11 73 73 94 78 One difiiculty in the interpretation of these figures lies in the fact that there were in the whole Commonwealth 56 and 328 deaths respectively in the two age groups for males and 21 and 66 in the corresponding groups for females in which the birthplace was unspecified. But as we are going to use the figures solely to point out the higher mortality of the immigrants from the United Kingdom we are on the right side, since the inclusion of these deaths of unspecified birthplace would increase the figures in the column showing " actual number of deaths," and thus raise the index. The figures on which the index for the United Kingdom is based are sufficiently large to assert defi- nitely that the mortality of male immigrants, particu- larly between 15 and 34, from Great Britain and Ireland is greater than that of the native males. In the case of the females no definite difference can be demonstrated for the younger group, and comparatively little for the other group. There are, of course, other factors — occupation, geographical situation, etc. — to be con- sidered in the complete investigation of this problem, and unless these are approximately the same for the immi- grant and native populations some differences in the indices would be anticipated. The possibility, too, that the emigrants from the United Kingdom to Australia have included a number of weak people moving for health reasons must also be borne in mind. C We cannot state exactly the mortality of thci home population from which the emigrants are drawn, but the following figures show the mortality in 1911 of certain portions of the population of England and Wa'( s compared with that of Australia :• — Age Group. Ac ual Number of Deaths. Number of Deaths which would have occurred if the Mortality of the Common- wealth at individual Age Groups applied. Mortalit V Index All England and 1 Wales. 1 Urban Districts. Rural Districts. London. All Eugland and Wales. Drban Districts. Kural Districts. London. All Eng- land and Wales. Urban Dis- tricts. Rural ' Dis- trict. Lontlon. MALES. 15-34 34-65 24,967 76,212 20,261 63,090 4,706 13,122 3,148 11,202 ' 23,198 67,919 18,265 51,823 4,933 16,096 2,921 8,430 108 112 Ill 122 96 82 108 133 FEMALES. 15-34 35-64 23,774 54,812 19.202 42,616 4,572 12,196 3,263 7,107 22 922 65!477 18,436 53,773 4,486 11,704 2,784 9,038 97 120 96 126 98 96 85 127 E 208:;u K DOMINIONS ROYAI. COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION It is difficult to draw any definite conclusions from a comparison of these figures with those in Table XIT., since, among other reasons, we are not able to assume that the emigrants from Euijland and Wales to Aus- tralia are a random sample from any one of the four populations above. The indices suggest that the males between 15 and 35, in Australia, of English and Welsh origin have a higher death rate than the corresponding male group here, but the difficulties in the way of an adequate comparison of the figures are too many to permit much weight being given to this conclusion. (24) The question of the heavier mortality of the immigrant than the native population in Australia can be looked at from another point of view. The volumes of " Commonwealth Vital Statistics" state the number of deaths in quinquennial age groups according to length of residence in Australia. From this informa- tion Table XV. has laeen constnicted on a similar basis to Table XIV. — the condensed arrangement of the figures showing also the indices of mortality accordins to certain periods of length of residence. The most definite conclusions which can be drawn from the indices are : (1) the mortality of the male immi- grants between 15 and 34 is considerably greater in the first five years of residence than that of the native popu- lation between those ^es ; (2) the mortality of the male immigrants between 35 and 64 and of over 20 years' residence is rather less than that of the native popula- tion between those limits of age. No definite difference can be asserted on the basis of the figures shown to exist between the mortality of the native and the immigrant females. The evidence is not inconsistent with the hypothesis that there is a weeding out of the weakly from the male immigrants in their early years in Australia, and that in subsequent years they suffer from a lower mortality than the native Australians. (25) We have now discussed a number of the factors which may be expected to affect the future population of the countries considered, and in this paragraph the results of an attempt to make estimates of those future populations are given. No certainty whatever attaches to the estimates made to predict future populations. All that can be done is to employ, for purposes of calculation the experience of the past. If this experience continues in the future the prediction will be approximately correct, and the likelihood of this occurring is roughly proportional to the magnitude of the populations dealt with. More weight is to be attached to the estimates made for the whole of the Empire, and for England and Wales, than for the sparsely populated country of New Zealand. After some preliminary investigation it was decided to make estimates not by considering in detail the courses of the birth, death, and migration rates for each country, but chiefly from the consideration of the total rates of increase in each case. This is made the more necessary by the desirability of dealing with children and adults separately. The rates of increase of the male and female popu- lations in each covmtry. both under and over 15, have been considered in detail in paragraphs 17 and 18 and Tables IV. and VI. By studying these rates of increase and considering the tendencies of the other factors affecting population certain maximum and minimum rates of increase which it appears reasonable to assimie for the next 10 years are suggested. Thus inspection of the figures for England and Wales in Table IV.. and general consideration on the fall in the birth and death- i-ates and the activity in emigration, suggests that it is not vmreasonable to assume that the male population under 15 will increase in the intercensal period at a rate of between 4 per cent, and 8 per cent, of the mean inter- censal population, and that the corresponding popu- lation over 15 will increase at between 10 per cent, and 14 per cent. The proper rate of increase to assume can be a matter of opinion only, and arguments can. no doubt, be brought against the assumption of any par- ticular figure. But no other method is warranted, and a verification is possible by ascertaining if the sum of the estimates made for the sub-populations is not incon- gruous with the estimate obtained on the assumption of a reasonable rate of increase for the whole population. A further test can be made by inquiring if the sum of the figures found for the individual countries is consistent with that found on a similar basis for the aggregate of the countries. The rate of increase of the population of the aggregate of the countries, as pointed out in para- graph 18. fluctuated but little in the 40 years from 1871. Condensing this table the following figures are obtained : — Length of Residence. MALES. 15-34. Deaths Actual on ba^is Nnm- of bar of Standard Deaths. Popn' lation Index. 35-64. Actual Num- Deaths | on basis of FEMALES. 15-.'J4. 35-64. ber of Standard Deaths. | Popu- I lation. ' Index. I Deaths Actual I on basis i Num- of ber of Standard Deaths.! Popn- I lation. ' Index. Deaths Actual on basis { Num- of i ,„ j„^ ber of Standard' ^°"^^- Deaths. Popu- lation. Less than 5 vears - 362 | 227 , 159 176 172 Between 5 & 10 years 67: 45 : 149 71 66 ., 10 & 20 years 67 j 67 , 100 304 282 Over 20 years - - 86 105 , 82 2,972 3,228 All immigrants - 582 444 131 3,523 3,748 102 89 76 117 66 ,., ' 108 18 17 106 39 28 108 27 36 75 97 103 92 80 101 79 1,625 1,5.37 94 214 230 93 1,827 1.741 90 139 94 106 105 The limiting rates of increase which have been assumed for the various populations are shown in Table XVI. It may again be emphasised that these figures are put forward as rough approximations only. The most likely criticism appears to be that in the case of the Colonies the maximum rate of increase assumed is too low. Such an opinion, however, is probably affected by the great activity in immigration to the Colonies of recent years, and the assumption that this is going to continue with unaljated force. There is little evidence for this view, and the fact that migration occurg chiefly in times of prosperity suggests that long before the census of 1921 the figures of migration will have reached a lower level. The populations which wiU then lie attained if the rates of increase shown in Table XVI. hold are given in Table XVII. Applying the rates of increase referred to in Table XVI. for the aggregate of the countries, the figures for 1921 are :— Males Females Lower Limit. Thousands. 31,616 32,352 Upper Limit. Thousands. 32,898 33,664 Total 63,968 66,562 MIGEATION, /y The agreement between the figures is quite good for the lower limit, but not so good for the ujjper. But the assumption in this work which has the greatest probability is that the rate of increase of the popula- tion of the aggregate of the countries is not likely to exceed 14 per cent, of the meau population. The figures given by the upper limits for the individual groups are therefore, on the whole, extreme values, and better estimates for rough general pui-poses are probably given by the lower limits. ' (26) On the assumption that the same rates of progression hold between 1921 and 1931, calculations have also been made of the various populations in the latter year. These are probably of very little value, as any attempt at estimating population for a date 20 years ahead has little scientific justification. Table XVIII. indicates the pojjulations in 19:j1 on the very improbable assumption that the rates of increase shown in Table XVI. will hold both Ijetween 1!>11 and 1921 and also 1921 and 1931. As before, two limiting values are given in each case, and these are necessarily wider apart than are the corresp)onding ones for 1921. The result of assuming a larger rate of increase for females than for males in the case of Australia (justified by past experience) is to make the estimates of the number of males and females in the Commonwealth in 1931 more nearly equal. Applying the rates of increase referred to in Table XVI. for the aggregate of the countries the figures for 1931 are : — Lower Limit. Upper Limit. Thousands. Thousands. Males - - - 34,936 37,826 Females - - 35,749 38,707 Total 70,685 76,533 Again the agreement is quite good for the lower limit, but the discrepancy tetween the values found at the maximvini rate of increase is large. As stated before, no stress can Iw laid on any particular esti- mate of population 20 years ahead, and the figures in the tables merely show what numbers will be reached by increasing the census figures of 1911 at certain rates. TABLE I. MiGEATION PEOM AND EXTERNAL TeaDE OP THE UNITED KINGDOM, 1876-1911. Excess of Outward over Inward Passenger Movement (British Nationality) to Exports of British and Irish Produce to Total Imports (exclusive ot Bullion and Specie) from Year. i ■^■°i M S CO 1 ■S'^" ■s« "■3.2 K S «^i 1 "i ■SS S.2 1 o o 1 lite 5^4 ss S 1 5| 3| o o a 1 = 2 5iS 6 In tho u sands. T„ millions of pounds. In millions of pounds. 1876 29,6 2,7 ,1 38,1 17,68 7,36 16,83 64,86 200,64 21,96 11,02 75,90 84,33 375,15 7 25.5 2,0 ,6 31,3 19,29 7,61 16,38 69,92 198,89 21,73 12,04 77,83 89,55 394,42 8 32,3 4,4 20,7 58,0 19,57 6,44 14,55 66,24 192,85 20,86 9,53 89,15 77,94 368,77 9 36,0 14,5 71,8 126,3 16,27 5,45 20,32 61,00 191,53 21,96 10,45 91,82 78,94 362,99 1880 18,3 16,2 140,1 180,5 16,93 7,71 30,86 75,25 223,06 25.66 13,39 107,08 92,52 411,23 1 16,8 18,2 146,3 190,3 21,38 8,41 29,80 79,36 234,02 26,98 11,30 103,21 91,54 397,02 2 30,4 34,3 153,4 224,7 25,37 9,70 30,97 84,83 241,47 25,17 10,40 88,35 99,43 413,02 3 64,4 37,2 144,9 246.3 24,22 9,16 27,37 83,48 239,80 25,94 12,28 99,24 98,68 426,89 4 35,9 22,3 93,8 150,8 23,90 8,65 24.43 80,88 233,03 28,31 11,04 86,28 95,81 390,02 5 31,4 10,5 80,1 122,2 25,17 7,21 21,99 77,93 213,04 23,33 10,35 86,48 84,40 370,97 6 34,1 17,6 99,8 152.9 22,40 7,89 26,82 75,51 212,43 20,95 10,42 81,60 81,88 349,86 7 23,9 25,2 143,2 196,0 19,77 8,11 29,55 75,14 221,41 23,34 10,56 83,05 83,80 362,23 8 20,7 26,0 132,0 185,8 25,48 7.57 28,90 83,94 233,84 25,86 9,27 79,76 86,92 387,64 9 17,9 19,6 97,4 150,7 22,88 8,14 30,29 83,28 248,94 26,80 12,19 95,46 97,27 427,64 1890 11,0 13,0 77,7 108.6 23,01 7,23 32,07 87,37 263,53 29,35 12,44 97,28 96,16 420,69 1 9,8 12,6 87,6 115,5 25,50 7,25 27,54 85,96 247,24 31,26 12,61 104,41 99,46 435,44 2 5,3 13,9 87,3 112,3 19,29 7,43 26,55 74,75 227 22 30,54 14,57 108,19 97,77 423,79 3 1,0 15,6 81,5 106,7 15,09 7,20 23,96 72,15 218',26 29,87 13,34 91,78 91,77 404,69 4 1,8 7,2 20,5 37,7 16,04 6,31 18,80 72,85 216,01 31,86 12,91 89,61 94,00 408,34 5 1.0 6,0 55,4 75,8 17,34 5,54 27,95 70.26 226,13 33,36 13,40 86,55 95,65 416,69 6 1,0 5,7 39,7 60,2 21,89 5,76 20,42 84,19 240,15 29,40 16,44 106,35 93,29 441,81 7 4,6 5,6 31,7 51,2 21,28 5.48 20,99 80,76 234,22 29,35 19,54 113,04 94,13 451,03 8 3,6 7,8 29,8 49,4 21,11 6,15 14,72 83,50 233,36 28,85 20,75 126,06 99,76 470.54 9 3,9 8,0 38,8 46,1 22,.50 7,35 18.12 87,67 264,49 33,32 20,73 120,08 106,90 485,04 1900 6,3 7,8 48,0 71,2 27,06 8,13 19,78 94,43 291,19 35,41 22,24 138,79 109,64 523,07 1 6,6 7,1 45,9 72,0 26,95 8,14 18,39 104,87 280,02 34,81 2o!39 141,02 105,68 521,99 2 4,4 14,7 51,6 101,5 25,21 10,72 23.76 109,09 283,42 30,62 23,61 126,96 106,92 528,39 3 3,7 45,9 65,4 147,0 22,51 11,50 22,61 111,15 290,80 30,51 27,28 122,11 113,67 542,60 4 5,2 51,3 66,8 126,9 23,65 11,11 20,20 111,94 300,71 36,31 23,14 119,23 120,02 551,04 5 7,3 62,5 61,0 139,4 23,42 12,34 23.92 113,44 329.82 40,36 26,20 115,.57 127,87 565,02 6 9,9 91,3 85,9 194.7 27,63 14,20 27,76 121,34 375,58 44,74 30,95 131,10 142,17 607,89 7 1 13,9 117,5 99,9 235,1 32,80 17,55 30,92 137,34 426,04 51,62 28,36 133,68 157,14 645.81 8 ' 20,4 41,5 31,5 91,2 31,71 12,68 21,30 125,75 377,10 43,74 26,62 124,16 129,83 592,95 9 ! 25,2 52,4 56,4 139,7 31,35 16,30 29,76 125,78 378,18 50,38 27,07 118,27 146,91 624,70 1910 32,7 115,7 73,6 233,7 36,30 20,61 31,45 145,45 430,38 59,52 26,97 119,97 170,64 678,26 1911 65,8 134,8 49,7 261,8 40,69 20,31 27.52 156,73 454,12 56,95 26,14 124,44 171,45 680,16 K 2 76 DOillNIOKS HOtAL OOMiliSSlOK : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COitUtSStON '. a •A < » o s H O fi 1— I 02 h-l ^ ': pa I ^ o o a jz; 00 ia o t-i Eh < •o Pk Cm >2 o 3 o -S-^ B-H D O P •* CO 00 o »> f-t 00 o> 64 (M CO 00 OJ *1 CO r-( 04 CO 00 00 CO r- 1-1 —I -* o> co_ of ^" 00 03 00 <M I> r>^ 00 00 cs o 00 CO •1 "^ US <N t» 00 ef CO CO CO CO o 00 CO 00 CO OJ o (M CO CO eo CO <M O CO 35 C5 ei eo 00 eo =; CO CO OS CO CO OS o eo o CO CO H 1X4 o I— ' OJ CO ao_ of o CO CO 05 CO r-l »-0 CO O 04 05 01 I-H 03 CO 00 CO Ol 1-1 CO »-o »o 00 CO CO c- 03 0> 01 00 04 t> 05 i> o CO CO o CO »o o ^ CO OS CO OS ■* r- OS -# 00 i:~ o i-H CO of of o OS 00 OS O 1-1 1—1 Ol 00 CO rt CO o « 04 CO co eo o 04 OS 04 M5 i> U3 CO CO t- t~ t- CO OS o o OS CO t^ »o -* CO 04 ■* t^ o CO o t^ -* OS f-l I-l 04 i-i »o I-l 00 rH 00 >o t-H OS CO CD 04 00 1—1 00 05 OS t> 00 -* OS O rH 00 00 00 o CO ^ 00 04 04 t^ 1> o. Wl I-l CO CO 04 U3 US US 00 00 OS 00 ■^ M eo us cs ■* 00 -* CO t- I— 1 OS CO O 1— 1 r-i «!. (Xi^ »o t- «s 1-i eo us 1-1 rH iH C4 04 04 .^ ij' 00 OS 00 »o o -* CO I> 1 00 eo us 04 00 rH CO CO OS 1—1 OJ OJ 04 04 00 i-H 04 CO o US CO 04 1 1—1 CO -* t^ 1 OJ CO uf I>. ' 1—1 I— 1 r-l co 00 eo CO "* us r^ ^^ 1 t~ CD ->*1 1 CO i> 00 00 MS CO cs o H}l r-l eo t^ OJ 00 00 ^^ CO CO eo 1— 1 OJ 04 04 eo — CO 00 , OJ 1— 1 t-* 1 1—1 CO us '^ T-K rH I— 1 OS o US OS 1 o 1-i us 'ji I> 00 00 OS 00 CD o "«• 1^ t» CO o 04 OS CD r» I-l 04 C4 CO -* .. l> O OJ 1 o 1— 1 t~ ^ C4 1— 1 r^ 04 CO o CO -* t^ us 1 l." O OJ OJ us '^ 1—1 ^" 1—1 C4 04 US o CD 04 00 lO eo r^ OS -* ^ l^ o ■* t^ y-\ 1—1 ^^ ^^ OJ "5 CO 1— 1 o T^ 00 «> o o OS -* ■^ 04 -* CO 00 r-T t* .^ "^ o o -* o 00 us c; Ol CO '^ us eo CO 04 CO 04 CO OS 00 CO t* ■* 00 us OS I> CO CO OJ 1-i C4 OJ OJ OJ 04 OJ 00 T-i o us CO 00 OJ CO VS eo OS us o 00 t- CO us us Ol rH r-i T^ rH I— 1 ■* 04 04 rH CO ^ CO ■* OS US CO OS OS 00 t» CO eo 04 I> CO CO 00 04 1—1 >o eo 00 OS US CO I> OS c- 04 ■* r^ I-l r-l 04 04 04 OS o 04 t- OS 00 1—1 us CO I^ us 00 T-^^ r^ rH 04 I— 1 eo_ us rH «2. eo t- ■* CO OS •* OS o I> o oo o ■* CD CD t- t> c> ^ CO US 04 os us "S CO -* OS 04 OJ CO eo OS I> CD o 1-1 I-l I— 1 CO rH rH CO 00 r-i 00 CJS US OJ CS US CJ lO OS -* 1— 1 O r^ lO us 00 us r^ CO I> 00 OS CO OJ -«1 o o O o CO OS 't o on OJ lO o r^ 04 us eo -* ■* us US us " pH rH 1— 1 00 r-i OS 1— 1 o rH rH oo 00 T~< 00 00 I— 1 OS I— 1 OS MlGftAtlOlJ. 77 )iimiti,tiiiiMimimmmiifmiiutM^mm TABLE m. Proportion of To'Tal Poi-uLATiosf truD«E IS. Year. England and Wales. Scotland. Ireland, Auatraliai iJew Zealand. Canada. Total 1861 1871 1881 1891 1901 1911 MALES. 36-7 34-5 341 31-4 ^ _ _ 37-0 39-1 36-9 38-8 34-0 39-3 37-6 37-5 38-4 .36-4 36-4 38-9 38-4 37-3 360 37-4 33-5 .34-8 37-8 35-9 35-7 33-5 34-8 31-2 33-9 32-3 35-4 33-4 31-8 33-4 30-1 30-8 30 1 — 1 FEMALES. 1861 - 34-6 30-6 31 -.5 43'0 r 1871 - 35-2 34-5 340 46-0 47-2 39-1 i 35-8 1881 - 35-6 34-7 33-8 41-9 46-8 37-9 j 3.5-8 1891 - 34-2 33-9 31-4 39-4 42-2 36-7 ! 34-3 1901 - 31-4 321 29-5 36-5 34-6 36-2 320 1911 - 29-6 31-2 291 32-4 325 — TABLE IV. Peecbntaqe Increase op Population in Intercensal Periods. Year. England and Wales. Scotland. Ireland. Australia. New Zealand. Canada. Total. Under 15. Over 15. Under 1.5. Over 1.5. Under 15. Over 15. Under 15. Over 1.5. Under 15. Over 15. Under 15. Over 15. Under 1.5. Over 15. 1861-71 1871-81 1881-91 1891-01 1901-11 MALES. 14-5 12-3 25-0 2-9 6-5 -10-8 68-1 211 — — — — — 151 13-8 10-7 13-2 -5-2 -3-4 25-2 390 106.0 66-7 14-3 18-6 12-9 7-3 13-6 4-9 9-9 -15-6 -4-4 34-2 43-7 200 25-5 51 16-9 5-8 3-8 16-4 41 16-5 -11-7 -1-8 12-8 17-8 4-0 32-8 10-3 12-7 3-7 1 51 13-8 2-2 8-0 -3-9 1-3 6-6 22-2 2'^'1 35-3 — — — FEMALES. 13-4 13-4 14-4 1861-71 14-9 12-3 231 2-8 0-9 -9-7 671 47-6 — — — — — — 1871-81 15-8 13-7 11-0 9-7 -5-3 -4-4 25-4 48-0 106-0 109-0 14-2 19-8 13-4 12-8 1881-91 7-6 14-5 4-7 9-1 -15-8 -6-6 33-6 48-1 20-4 45-3| 5-6 14-4 6-0 13-1 1891-01 3-5 170 4-7 13-2 -11-3 -2-6 12-9 28-2 2-4 41-2 11-0 10-1 3-7 14-8 1901-11 4-5 13-8 3-3 8-0 -3-9 -2-2 60 26-9 22-0 34-2 — . — — ■ TABLE V. Births, Deaths, and Next Immigration in stated Countries in Decennial Periods FROM 1861. (In Thousands.) England and Wales. Scotland. Ireland. Australia. Nbw Zealand. Total. Period. w »' .i a . a' .i o5 EC .^^ G D •£ ^. o »• cS ■~ 9 m oj .i a js S.2 J3 fi-a ■a a -a .a a-r •H a-,- J3 a. 2 f-i ?, Sffl M C8 a1 *H O) a 'rt f^ 0) a « OJ a'S h o a ca n o "& n P ^ B. PQ p « & m P " & n a "■ ^ n « "&) 1861-71 - 1871-81- 1881-91 - 1891-11)01 19U1-19U MALES. ,3,827 2,46U - 85 575 351 — 71 — — . — . 289 135 80 37 14 75 1 14,375 2,679 —115 633 362 — 75 720 485 —342 354 177 124 76 26 78 |4,527 2,698 —415 642 369 —130 592 438 —368 485 241 244 97 34 11 14,656 2,865 —115 6.56 389 - 35 .542 412 —248 534 265 15 95 40 18 ;4,736 i2,706 -313 667 382 —152 525 381 — 152,j 551 262 31 122 51 57 6,159 3,729 -329 6,143 3,780 —658 6,483 3,972 —366 6,601 3,782 -529 FEMALES. 1861-71 - 3,673 2,335 - 25 546 355 — 46 — — — 1 275 94 87 36 9 39 — 1 — — 1871-81 - 4,214 2,499 - 34 599 382 — 38 682 482 —331 339 125 68 72 18 58 5,906 3,506 —277 1881-91 - 4,364 2,546 —202 610 375 — 88 559 445 -370] 462 169 139 93 25 9 6,087 |3,560 —512 1H91-19U1 - 4,497 2,710 — 62 625 393 — 17 513 424 —2171 508 189 10 91 29 8 6,234 3,744 —278 1901-1911 - 4,562 2,512 —194 640 383 —104 498 386 —172 523 193 10 116 36 30 6,3.39 3,540 —431 K 3 78 DOM£KIOKS EOYAl. CUJIil ISSION : — I'AlEliS I AID UEFOKE THE COMMISSION: PQ < Eh 1^ O o IS o X S5 o < D Pk O ;^ H R f< !?: O Pk P a s ffi ■"1 n p o ;2 m a i-i IS O EH a o ■«1 P PQ ■91BH ■_> Total without Canada.' •l«»oi -unraj ■IB?OJ -iratuj •q^eaa "Hwia -< 3 BS <1 •Wox ■notjBiS -itatnj ■q?c9a ■'H'lja •"1 .J a » •l«*ox -iranii •qjBaa •ni-iia d -< ■I«lox -luirai •q^BBQ •mjtia England and Wales. ■IB40X •aouBjS -itnnix •iiiE9a ■qwa 1 -8 1 -1 c o GO o o OS I I o do in M 03 lO <3i CO g o (M 05 T-H OO CO CO o> I-H o I> CO CO ■* 1-* c^ 1/5 cc 00 00 « - o o CO i-H <M 00 o cc g § "5 CD 00 -* -* -* 00 05 00 CO CO 1-1 r-l t- t~ 00 ■* O I— 1 r-H «o o I-H o t- ICI -«l (M I-H rH I-H C5I I-H l> -* (M O CO S g§ CO CO OS CI CO o CO 10 O Ci rH CC I-H I I t» (M CO 1 00 I— I 00 I-H 00 iH l-H 00 -* OS 1 C4 s I-H «n CO eo ^H f-H 1— t 1> I-H rH CD CD I I I 00 OS CO t> OS I-H OS I-H 00 I-H l-H CC C4 CO OS 00 CO CO s 55 OS CO CO « CO eo <N eo rH ^H I-H I-H 1— t 00 o O I-H Al CO 00 OS o o -* -* o ^ CJ lO o o I I 1 CO < CO CO 00 eo 1 OS I-H I-H CO iH « I-H i> 1 CO CO 00 OJ 00 cq I-H 00 f-H OS OS CO OS f-H 00 CO 00 10 ■ CO s s§ CO <N i> 00 (M (M t^ CD ^ OS 00 00 ■* OS 10 ■* IH U5 :| s CI CI CO CO CD CI eo CO -* s s d r-H 05 CD I-H CD U5 I-H I> 1-H d 10 CO 00 »o I-H I-H CO I-H I-H I-H OS CD CI CO -* -* 00 CO eo f-H CO ^ 00 I I I CI CO OS I I I 00 I> CO eo 1 00 I-H I-H CI eo I-H CO 1 s Cl CI CI CI CI r» CI 00 ■* 00 OS t~ OS CO 6\ CI ■* 00 o -* -* ,.- CD t- OS I-H I-H CI S 00 I> f-H CO I-H "5 ."* CO »o OS CI CO g? eo 00 CI CO d -* -* ^ c. -T CI I-H CO I-H I-H I-H I-H -* I-H O i^ l> t^ r^ CI CO eo CI Cl CI Cl OS I-H CD f-H 00 eo 1 CO CO fe s ■H eo Cl ^— ~ CC I-H CI i oc 1^ - -<f 1> 3S CO 00 CO CO CO CO % gs 10 Cl o I 00 =. o o OS o 00 00 00 OS 00 © OS CD 00 o o 00 OS I I I-H I-H 1> 00 00 00 o o OS o o OS Mir.UATION. 79 TABLE VII. Legitimate Births per 1,000 Married Women, aged 15-4-5. Country. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. Englaud and Wales Scotland Ireland - Australia New South Wales - Victoria Queensland - S. Australia - W. Australia Tasmania New Zealand - 1901. 1911. 281-2 289-4 285-6 269-9 234-9 197-0 317-8 317-4 313-1 300-4 272-4 232-0 308-9 283-0 293-5 288-3 295-0 . — 276-0 237-7 234-3 340-8 331-5 336-3 288-7 235-3 237-2 302-2 298-2 298-4 297-7 228-6 225-0 316-2 327-7 254-0 246-9 — 235-9 237-5 . 243-9 224-2 — 260-0 246-4 — 312-2 275-7 246-1 211-8 TABLE VIII. Number of Births per Marriage in previous Year. Country. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. 1901. 1906. 1909. 1910. 1911. England and Wales 4-1 4-4 4-6 4-1 3-6 3-6 3-5 3-4 3-3 Scotland ... - 5-0 4-9 5-2 4-6 4-1 4-2 4-1 4-1 3-7 Ireland . - - - 5-3 6-2 5.1 4-7 4-5 4-5 4-5 4-6 Australia . - . 5-2 5-5 5-1 4-7 3-8 3-7 3-5 3-5 3-3 New Zealand - 5-0 5-7 5-9 4-8 3.5 3-4 3-2 3-2 3-2 K 4 80 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSIOX : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: -<1 a ts; a es H CO I 2 Q f O a OB -< Q ■<l O >5 ■•1 a CO 3 o to 5S <N CO ^ IC 00 CO CO -* >-i rt 00 CC p IN 00 op 05 6i P o si O o EH a o 00 m >J pi ■a! PS Ixl n S b -* 'J' us <o CO "3 rH O <e to o CO do CO C5 CO OS 00 o CO CO 00 I— f a o V i 05 do 03 Oi 00 o CO o 00 6i OS do m CO 00 till o « o IM (M CO I I I I o I I 00 CO 5-1 o Hi <! « 1-3 < H O © O .H >< « a (> O t< m Hi s Q o PS P3 g 05 C5 CO CO "* CI 00 p CO p p o 00 t> 00 o 00 CO CO CO CC CO O CO CO lO IN do 00 do CO 05 p CO CO CO CO o 00 CC o p CO •* 00 '~^ lO 1.0' CC CO CC rH 03 CO Oi CO "5 CS CO CO p I I I I O "5 o ^ C<1 <N CO CC I I I I U5 ^ -r MIGIIATION'. 81 X ^3 a o w ►-] < cS PC < « T3 P5 1* < t4 a S Si «^ W -w §5 03 OD M a» ^i ^ 'O « fl (x,ti| n 1 « ^' M « P^ ■«) a !; P ^ O « cs H O M H Q SB . « •S'C as P s a . Cl '- j ■>) c H ■ a> CO <3> fi Ol o I— ( t^ 00 «1 lO 1— 1 -11 >o Ol ■* iO M 1 1 1 1 1— 1 1 1 !>■ o OS m in ro irt >o C5 05 iC o Ol fO i> -H I-H CO •,o cc F— 1 M -* -* -* I-H OT _. o «c iH r^ 1^ <N CO 50 I— 1 Oi -f 1 M ^■C ,_ CO 00 r— ( 1 1 1 1 1 ' ' ' ' CO o I I 115 •< m a D m Pi 05 1-1 1 CO 1 00 oo" 1 1 1 r-H CI cq CI 1 1 «o CD CO 00 C3 00 00 O I I I I I I 05__ CD O 00 CO 00 03 oo" i-T IC O I I o 00 CO IN rH cq lo 04 of CO 00 o 00 CO CO CO o o I I I I co" 03_ lo" co_ CO lO IC o CO I I I I 00 00 o 00_ e<f o" i-H CI5 00 05 (M 00 Oi 00 "5 CO I I O iCi 05 05 I I o in o 1" t "? U5 I O I I 05" i-r (N 00 00 -^ o 00 I-H l-H I . I CO o, ■* iH I> rH I-H I I in CD I I 00 I I ot> CO CO CD U5 10 E 20830 P0MIN'I0N8 KOTAI. COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE TPIE COMMISSION : TABLE XI. Numbers of Unmarried Males and Females hetireeii certain Age Limits in London Boroughs ^lf•ll). and certain indices of Social Status. Borough. 15—35. isl c 9 6 5 ^ i " 0) ' o Hampstead - Kensington - Holborn Wandsworth PaJJington ■ Lewisham - St. Maryle- bone. Stoke Xew- ingtou. Westminster Chelsea Hammer- smith. Lambeth Fulham Camberwell Hackney Battersea St. I'ancras - Islington Deptford and Green- wich. ■Woolwich - Southwark - Finsbnry Stepney Poplar Bermondsey Bethnal Green. Shoreditch - E o E c 82-9 ()7 5S(ll20-7 .->()■ 3 34-4 .53-3J4(i-7 52-2 I 35-8 51-2 UfiO 46-5 43-3 3S-!I 37-4 35-6 34 33 33 32 32 3u 26 6-4 27-6 53 4 25 4 18-7 17-6 17-4 130 17-8 12-5 15 il 15-3 19-2 141 7-3 7-9 8-6 80 6-4 5-6 In Thousands. 10.3 18.6 0.2 lO.G 5.7 8,9 1,8 4,ti -0,3 0,4 0,8 1.3 4,9 0,6 .9 2 1.0 -0,1 8.6 18.9 16.1 34.7 7,0 7.2 30,7 41.3 1.5.1 23.9 I. 5.2 20,9 13,3 22,2 5,6 7,4 24,6 29,8 6.8 11,4 14,3 14,0 33,7 34,1 1.5,6 16.4 28.5 29,8 24,5 29,4 18,2 17,6 27,1 24.9 36.6 37,6 11,9 11,8 :.. I' 14,9 11.5 21.5 )9,0 10.0 9.3 32.1 29.1 17,6 15,y 14,4 12,5 13,9 13.7 12,2 11,4 .3,4 ■2.5 -0,7 3,0 1,7 1.9 -0,2 ■0,8 c K — In Thousands. 1.6 3.0 1,9 4,5 2.5 1.9 3,0 0,7 6,2 1,4 2,4 5,4 1,8 3,8 3,2 2.2 5.2 5.6 1.5 1,8 4,1 1,5 5,5 2.4 2^1 1,6 5.6 11.5 1,9 9,8 7.0 4,0 6,6' 1,8 3,7 3,0 ; 7,0 3,0 5,5 5,6 3.1 5,2 8.0 1.9 1.4 2.3 1.3 2.6 1,5 1,2 1,* 1,1 4.0 8.5 0.0 5.3 4,5 2,1 3,6 1,1 2.5 2^3 0.6 1,6 1,2 1,7 2.4 0.9 0.0 2.4 0.4 -0.4 -1.8 -0,2 -2.9 -0.9 -0,9 -0,2 - 0,6 TABLE XII. Numhers of Umnarried Males and Females hetwBca I") a/Mi 35 in the aggregate of County Boroughs, other Urban Districts, and in Rural Districts in Comities and divisions of Counties. {In t}u>usands.) 1911. County. Bedford Berks - Bucks Cambs Cheshire Cornwall Cumberland Derby Devon Dcirset Durham Isle of Ely - Esses - Gloucester - Hants - - - Hereford Herts - Hunts - Kent - Lanes - Leicester Lincoln London Middlesex - Monmouth - Norfolk Northants - Northumberland - Notts - Oxford Rutland Shropsliire - Somerset Stafford Suffolk, East „ West Surrey Sussex, East ,. West Warwick Westmoreland Isle of Wight Wiltshire Worcestershire - Yorks, £. Biding N ., W. .. Glamorgan - Remainder of S. Wales. N. Wales - Aggregate of County Boroughs. Males. Fe- males, Remaining Urban Districts. Rural Districts. Males. Fe- males. JIales. Fe- males. 8.3 30.4 12.8 32.3 46.9 31,0 41.4 52.4 3,1 333.7 22.2 15.9 .504.3 10.2 17,3 10.0 37.7 25.3 5.5 4.4 65.8 7.9 15,9 23.0 68.8 10.2 29.7 12,1 153.6 46.8 8.6 32,0 13.8 25.4 45.6 28,3 53.0 49.2 352.8 28.9 13.4 569.0 9,1 21.8 11.5 36.7 32.5 8.0 63,7 8.4 20.5 35.1 69.5 11.1 28.3 9.7 166.7 39.7 12,7 6,6 8.8 5.5 52.9 15.4 18.6 31.7 24.4 17.2 60.8 3.9 84.0 10,1 36,7 4,2 20,2 2,5 83,2 166,5 10,6 19,0 107,4 33,9 6,1 14,1 28,5 22.4 4.7 .4 12.5 16.2 58,8 8.7 5.0 47.9 10.6 7.8 25.8 2,8 5,4 14,0 23,7 5,7 19,5 131,7 69,7 17.4 22.0 15.0 7.1 8.7 7.2 I 60.6 18.1 I 19.0 28.7 30.9 14.0 49.5 3.7 . 87.3 14.4 18.9 5,1 23.7 2.4 82.5 178.4 11.3 18,4 129,3 20,8 7.3 14.7 23.4 21.0 5,7 ,4 11.9 21,1 52.2 9,6 6,2 60.9 17,5 11,0 29,2 3.8 7.4 14,1 29,1 7.7 18,7 128,7 43,4 16,9 8.5 15.9 15.3 8.6 22,6 20,0 12.6 32,4 26.8 12.U 56.2 3.9 31.1 24.9 31.9 7,9 13,8 3,6 35.5 29,0 16.9 29.1 4.4 5.5 29.2 14,8 I.-..1 14,8 11,7 2,2 16.2 27.0 25.3 1.5.0 8.0 22.4 14,0 10,8 19,0 4,4 4,2 20.8 20.2 12.8 17,3 45,2 25,4 31.3 25,5 37,9 6.9 14.3 13.8 6.7 22.3 19.3 11.8 23.9 24.1 10.2 34.8 2.7 23.0 22.9 22,3 7,6 13,2 2.7 29,7 28,4 15,7 23.2 .5.6 4.8 23.0 12.6 14.6 12,6 9,5 1.7 13,7 26,5 20.4 10,3 6,3 27.2 13,7 9,1 15,8 4,7 3,1 14,0 20,1 9.6 13.4 34,7 19,4 28.5 30,7 MlflRATIOK. 83 TABLE Xni. BiKTH Bate or Certain Populations in Australia (1911) according to Birthplace. No. of Women at Cen- ■a -^ ■r. (^ No. uf Men at Census 25 1.5 = 10 « < sus 1911 between Ages ■■S ^ 2 a> J3 1911 between Ages U-, C ^ *^ £ ?i 5S liirthplace. .•§f^ £p 2H ;gl^ =Q Z «§ A "5s! U-. o i*j Z "■3'S **■* ? u-S 15-45. 20-4U. Total (1911) Bii 16-5 20-45. 77,500 20-S5. Total (1911) Bii 6% 55- England - 50,700 37,200 6,136 121 119,500 9,660 12-5 8.1 Wales - 1,700 1,.300 220 131 17-5 2,800 4,500 300 10-9 6-6 Scotland- 12,300 9,100 1,552 12-6 171 19,500 31, .500 2,311 11-8 7-3 Ireland - 17,100 10.700 1,431 8-4 13-4 18,000 35,300 2,168 121 6-2 New South Wales - 328,700 220,600 41,895 12-7 190 250,100 294,300 35,859 14.4 12-2 Victoria - 322,000 211,900 34,296 10-7 16-2 245,900 306,500 31,697 12-9 10-3 Queensland 106,400 69,800 12,927 12-2 18-5 76,000 81,800 9,488 12-5 11-6 South Australia 108.400 74.400 13,034 12-0 17-5 86,200 104.500 12.316 14-3 11-8 Western Australia - 14,100 8.500 1,882 13-4 22-1 10.00(» 11.900 1,323 13-2 HI Tasmania ■ifi.OOO 30.600 5,656 12-3 18-5 34,700 44,50(1 5,123 14-8 11-5 New Zealand - 11.000 S.800 1,283 11-7 14-7 11,400 13,300 1.267 111 9-6 Germany 3,200 2,300 551 171 24-3 7,400 11,700 1,062 14-4 91 Italy - - - 800 600 ; 179 23-3 30-2 1 3,500 4,300 290 8-2 6-8 United States - 1,200 900 92 7-6 10-2 2,200 3.000 186 8-4 6-1 TABLE XrV. Mortality of the Population in Australia in 1911 according to Birthplace. No. of Deaths No. of Deaths No. of Deaths ' No. of Deaths of such Men of such Men of such Women of such Women which would which would which would which would have occurred have occurred have occurred i have occurred it' the Death if the Death if the Death if the Death No. of Rate at eanh No. of Eate at each No. of Rate at each No. of Eate at each Hivih|.lai'r. Deaths quinquennial Deaths quiuqueuuial Deaths quinquennial Deaths qxunquenni;il of Men age-period for of Men age-period for of age-period of age-period fur 15-34. the whole of 35 «4. the whole of the Women for the whole Women the whole of the correspond- corresponding 15-34 of the corres- 35-64. the eorrespoml- ing male popu- male po|}ula- pouding female ing female lation of the tiou of the population of population of Commonwealth Commonwealth the Common- the Common- applioil. • applied. wealth applied. 939 wealth applied. England 234 207 1,752 1,775 115 117 887 Wales . . - - 8 7 64 68 4 4 31 32 Scotland SO 54 569 479 28 29 229 231 Ireland - - - - 70 36 781 65J 32 28 516 447 New South Wales - 876 969 1.394 1,602 864 922 1.107 1.163 Victoria 794 873 1,668 1,714 887 848 1,315 1,268 Queensland - 312 320 242 226 317 306 167 172 South Australia 286 .318 502 614 330 302 417 449 Western Australia 33 41 58 64 33 38 36 47 Tasmania 126 127 289 336 151 125 236 241 New Zealand 40 35 70 63 29 31 43 39 Germany ... 1(1 it 185 193 4 7 63 78 Italy ■- . . - 21 11 26 29 2 2 3 4 United States 4 6 28 34 2 3 t 12 L Z 84 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION -PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION : TABLE XV MORTAXiITr OF THE POPULATION IN AUSTRALIA IN 1911 ACCORDING TO LENGTH OF RESIDENCE. No. of Deaths No. of Deaths No. of Deaths Oi... No. of Deaths of such Men of such Men of such Women of such Women which would which would _ which would which would have occurred have occurred have occurred have occurred if the Death if the Death if the Death if the Death No. of ■ Rate at each No. of Rate at each No. of Rate at each Xo. ,,f Kate at each Length of residence in Deaths quinquennia! Deaths quinquennial Deaths quinquennial Deaths quinquennial Australia. of Men. age-porii-xl for of Men, ape-period for of a_?e-perind fur of a.ire-period for L5-34. the whole of the 35-64. the \\iiole of the Women the whole of \^'omen the whole of corresponding corrcsponcUug 15-34. the correspond- 35-64. tlje correspond- male popula- male popula- ing female ing female tion of the tion of the population of population of Commonwealth Common- the Common- the Common- applied. wealth applied. wealth applied. wealth applied. Under 1 year 162 105 73 75 34 32 27 29 Between 1 and 2 years - 67 47 24 33 9 18 13 16 .. 2 and 3 .. - 68 35 34 27 17 13 13 12 3 and 4 43 25 26 22 21 9 5 9 ,. -i and 5 22 15 19 16 18 5 8 7 ,. 5 and 10 .. - 67 45 71 66 18 17 39 28 „ 10 and 15 .. 37 43 142 116 18 19 44 39 ., 15 and 20 .. - 30 23 162 167 9 17 53 64 ., 20 and 25 ., - 41 48 457 545 35 46 206 222 „ 25 and 30 „ - 38 47 699 816 35 45 327 326 „ 30 and 35 ,. - 7 11 625 607 10 10 255 214 .. 35 and 40 ,. - — — 359 351 — 171 141 ., 40 and 45 ,. - — — 256 227 - — 188 131 ,. 45 and 5(1 .. - — — 189 205 — 139 150 ., 50 and 55 .. - — — 171 190 — 143 141 .. 55 and 60 .. - — — 168 244 . — 160 179 „ 60 and 65 „ - — — 48 44 ~ ! 36 33 TABLE XVI. Limiting Bates op Increase (Peecentage of the Mean Intercensal Populations) assumed FOR the Estimation of the Population of the various Countries in 1921. Under < Lower 15 I Upper Over I Lower 15 ( Upper Total ^]f^^^ I Upper E:«iI.AND -I I AND Scotland. Ireland. ' Australia. ! Wales. Males.'F'male9 New Zealand. Aggueijate Canada. of I Countries. Males.iF'males Males. F'malesiMales. F'males.Males. F'malesMales. F'maIeslMales.'F'male8 i I I I I 9 12 9 ]1 9 12 9 11 2 —5 -5 5 5 10 10 1 ^ 5 5 15 15 25 25 — ! 5 -5 25 30 30 30 . — . — i 8 5 35 40 40 40 — . — — ' 4 -2 -5 15 18 20 20 20 20 10 ~ 2 « 25 28 35 35 35 35 14 10 14 MIGRATION. TABLE XVII. Populations in 1921 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase Shown in Table XVI. hold. (Thoasanda.) — Lower Limit. 'i Upper Limit By using Kates of Increase of Total Popu- lation. Under l.T. Over 13. Total. j Uuder 1.% Ovfr 1."). Total. Lower Limit. Upper Limit. ENGLAND AND WALES. Males Females - 5,757 5,745 i 13.035 1 14,337 18,792 20,082 38.874 5,991 5,979 13,431 14,772 28,203 19.422 20.771 19,086 20,376 19,470 20,786 Total - 11.502 27.372 11,970 40.193 39,462 40,2.56 SCOTLAND. Males Females 789 , 779 1 1.568 1.615 1.774 3.389 2.404 813 2.553 803 4,957 1,616 1,664 1,828 2,477 2,631 5,108 2,402 , 2,552 2,475 2,630 Total - 3,492 4,954 5,105 IRELAND. Males Females - 628 609 1,532 1,482 2,160 2,091 694 673 I .:!fi7 1,610 1,558 2,304 2,231 ! 2,149 ! 2,091 2,236 2,198 Total - 1.237 1 3,014 4.251 3,168 j 4,535 4,240 4,434 AUSTRALIA. Males Females - 750 730 1,480 2,050 1.948 3,998 2,800 2,678 5,478 ! 828 806 2,258 2,143 4,401 1 3,086 2,949 6,035 2,686 2,562 2,963 2,826 Total - 2,634 5,248 5.789 NEW ZEALANE . Males Females - 177 171 348 500 433 933 677 604 205 199 404 551 477 1,028 756 676 1,432 649 5S2 1,231 751 673 Total - 1,281 1,424 , CANADA. Males Females - — — 4,662 4,128 — — 5,.392 4,776 10,168 4.662 4.128 5,.392 4,776 Total - — — 8,790 8,790 1 10,168 AG GREGATE OF COUl ^TRIES. Males Females - — — 31,495 , _ ! 32,140 — 1 — 33,437 34,034 31,634 1 32,291 1 63,925 33,287 33,889 Total - — 1 63,635 — — 67,471 1 67,176 L:3 86 DilMIXrONS liOYAI. COMMISSION : — PAPKKS I.AIP BEFORE THE COMMISSION : TABLE XVni. Populations in 1931 on the Assumption that the Rates of Increase shown in Table XVI. hold foe two Inteecensal Pekiods. (Thousands.) Dnder l."). Lower Limit. Over 1.1 Total. L'nder 15. Upper Limit. Over 1.=). Total. ENGLAND AND WALES. Males Females - 5,992 5,979 11,971 14,260 15,685 20,252 21,664 6,489 6,476 Total - 29,945 41,916 12,965 SCOTLAND. Males Females - 805 795 1,697 1,865 2,502 , 2,660 • ■ 1 855 844 Total - 1,600 3,562 5,162 IRELAND. 1,699 Males Females - 597 5T9 1,.532 1,410 2,129 1,989 730 707 Total - 1,176 2.942 4,118 1,437 15,139 16,651 31,790 1,802 1,981 3'783 1,692 1,568 21,628 23,127 44,755 2,657 2,825 5,482 2,422 2,265 4,687 AUSTRALIA. Males Females • Total- 788 767 1,555 2,626 2,619 3,414 3,386 961 936 3,186 3,172 4,147 4,108 5,245 .6,800 ' 1,897 6,358 8,255 NEW ZEALAND. Males Females • Total- 196 189 385 673 582 1,255 869 771 1.640 263 255 518 815 706 1,521 1,078 961 2.039 CANADA. Males Females ■ Total • — — 5,688 5,036 1 — — I — 10,724 — !"—_'■ 7,6U<J 6,740 14.349 Males Females AGGREGATE OF THE COUNTRIES. 34,854 35,506 39,541 40,026 Total- 70,360 79,567 OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS : STEAMSHIP, POST, AND TELEGRAPH. 87 II.— OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS. A. Steamship, Post, and Telegraph, (i) Mails. (a) Memorandum prepared by tlie Britisli Imperial Council of Commerce, at tlie x-eq^uest of' the Dominions Royal Commission, sapplementing evidence tendered by the Chairman of the former body on the subject of The All-Red Mail Route. On the occasion of the examination of the Cliiiuunau of the British Imperial Council of Commerce ]>j the Dominions Royal Commission on October 30tb, 1912. it was suggested that a concrete scheme for an All-Red Mail Route might be prepai-ed,* not necessarily as being that recommended l)y the Council as superior to any other, but with a view principally to affording a basis for discussion. The British Imperial Council of Commerce is a composite body having members in the most remote portions of the Empire, and, clearly, the triennial congress, which it organises, cannot do more than express in general terms the view of the repi'e- sentatives of British commerce. To discuss in detail any concrete proposals in regard to the above-mentioned subject, would indeed, so far as the Congress is con- cerned, be a work of supererogation, even if such a course were possible, and, accordingly, the proposition referred to below (the details of which are readily obtainable from the promoters) are only cited with the object of basing certain observations and deductions thereon. Obviously the members of the Coimcil engaged in various branches of commerce and industry are not in a position as a body to give a technical opinion in favour of one scheme or another, a matter which should be left to expei'ts. There is no doubt that the Commercial Congress of the Empire is influenced to some extent by sentiment ; l)ut it is also true that that sentiment is chiefly governed by the conviction that any proposals which will seiwe to weld together the various portions of the Empu-e are sound commercially as well as politically. Consequently the resolution adopted by the Congress in favour of an " All-Red '" mail route may be taken as expressing, on behalf of commercial men as a whole, a sentimental or patriotic conviction backed by com- mercial common sense, with due appi-eciation of the situation which has arisen in regard to the supply of food in time of war. The proposal to establish an All- British fast sei-vice connectiug the United Kingdom (via Canada) with Australia and New Zealand, and even Hong Kong, is by no means new. It was indeed originally pro- pounded almost a century ago, though principally from a definite standpoint, i.e., the advantage to be derived in time of war, which is only one of many aspects now considered by those favouring the modern development of the idea. The existence of a fast mail and freight service to and from all parts of the Empire by British steamers and via British territory only, suggests very obvious advantages from many points of view, and, indeed, since the Emphe Commercial CongTess first discussed the matter, the principle involved has been laid before, and approved by, successive Imperial Conferences. That the time has come when the various Governments concerned should assist in promoting a scheme having that end in view is very generally accepted. The principal hnk in the Imperial chain which remains to be forged is the first stage, namely, the connection between the United Kingdom and Canada. Broadly speaking, two proposals have been put for- ward, the first suggesting a fast subsidised service du-ect ^1 1 ■. 1 1, I', n -:. [I ^ I ot [0 1. ii)i7j. from Livei-poolor Bristol to Halifax (N.S.) or St. John (N.B.) and perhaps in open weather, Montreal ; while the second looks to the utilisation of one of the natui-al harbours on the west coast of Ireland. The latter has advantages in the saving of time not only by the fact of more of the journey l>eing accomplished by rail, but because the sea journey will also be more than corres- pondingly reduced. The Irish Channel might be traversed by ferry, and in this connection it may be useful to quote the following obseiwations contained in a memorandum on the subject of fen'iss by the late Sir William White, H.M. Director of Naval Coustnic- tion : he wrote, " The length, bulk, and weight of a modern railway train natm-ally produce an impression that both the operation of placing it on board a ship and its presence on the deck when the vessel is in a seaway must involve serious risk, and must prejudicially aifect the stability and behaviom- of a FeiTy Steamer. This popidar view has never found favour with naval architects and civil engineers. . . . The feasibility and safety of railway-ferry steamers is no longer a matter for debate ; the question has been settled by actual experience in various pai'ts of the Vorld." The necessity for this prebminaiy crossing has been held by some to be an insupei-able objection to the route. This refers principally to first-class passengers, and it seems hardly likely that these, in order to avoid a sea passage of three hours (in the case of Scotland, 1 hom-j would add 20 hours to the Atlantic crossing. It may, of course, be said that the west coast of Ii'eland route would require, at the outset, the construction of a port — the docks, &c., necessary for ocean liners and of 100 miles of railway ,_at relatively heavy cost, for which Parliamentary powers have already been obtained, but for the realisation of the fundamental principle of an All-Red Mail Route, it is not essential that the west of Ii-eland port and Halifax should be the terminal ports of the steamers ; they need only be ports of call, with, for ex,ample, Liverpool and Boston as the extremities of the voyage. For the moment, it is proposed to discuss the advantages which such a route, if established, would possess over the New York service. The promoters of the Blacksod Bay scheme have taken many practical steps towards its reaUsation. Particulars have been published in pamphlet form, but the main practical argument in its favom- (apai-t from sentimental considerations and the question of food supply in time of war) may be recapitulated here : they apply, generally speaking, to any west coast of Ireland point of departm-e, such, for instance, as Galway, which is also favoured in some quarters : — (1) The distance between Blacksod Bay and Halifax is about 2,100 miles, which compares with 3,150 miles between Livei'pool and New Tork, and the ocean passage wotdd thus be reduced from SJ to 3^ days, given steamers of 25 knots. (2) The actual time between London and New Tork would be reduced from 5 J days to less than 5 days, whilst the time between Loudon aud Montreal would be reduced from 6 J days to 4 J days. L 4 ss DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION (3) Passenger traflSc from Northern Europe via the East coast ports in the United Kingdom would probably be atti-acted, as such an itinerary, properly organised, would mean a saving of still further time. (4) The delays owing to tide and fog experienced at Liverpool would be obviated entirely. Black- sod Bay being enterable at any time and in any weather. (5) The .shorter ocean passage would requii-e less coal and consequently leave more room on the vessels for other purposes. (6) The saving in time detailed above would also benefit the mails, and the new route might become the princii^al maU serWce between United Kingdom and Korth America, an^l. possilily. Australia and New Zealand. These particular.s have been given, not. as lia>^ ali-eady been pointed oat. with a view to advocating the claims of the Blaoksod Bay or any other suggested route, but for the purpose t>f emphasizing the obvious advantages which attach to a direct route as such and providing some definite data upon which practical consideration of the matter as a sound commercial proposal can lie based. It may be stated that prac- tically all Canadian and New Zealand statesmen of influence have already expressed themselves in favour of some such scheme. The resolutions of successive Empu-e congresses demonstrate that in commercial opinion Canada has reached that stage of develop- ment — of commei-cial importance — which would ju.stify the step advocated, both Imperially speaking and as a matter of business. Befoi-e passing to some general obsei-vations upt)n the subject, it may ]ye well to consider a special featui-e, which applies in its greatest degree to the Blacksod Bay route, i.e., the advantages of the direct service in time of war. The bulk of naval opinion, and of that of the majority of the experts, at the present day, appenrs to favoui- the view that in time of war the policy of naval comliatants would be one of concentration — at any rate untU such time as a decisive engagement had taken place. In other words, no navy would be inclined, unless in a case of very great siiperiority. to weaken itself by detaching imits for the pm-pose of preying upon the enemy's commerce. And history shows quite clearly that the destnaction of commerce, in this wa}-, has never become so widespread as to exercise a serious crippling effect, dii'ectly or indirectly, upon a combatant. On the other hand, it is impossible to find an instance in history of a nation being so remarkably dependent upon oversea imports of food as is the case with the United Kingdom at present ; and accordingly the possibility of the interruption to any appreciable extent of trade routes must be considered as a factor in case of war, not only as affecting the efficiency of the fleet, but as an additional disturbing influence upon markets which would already be in a state of pertm-bation. From the standpoint of the probability of maintaining food supplies vininterruptedly in the time of war. the West Coast of Ireland-Canada route is undoubtedly attractive, more especially when it is remembered that Canada already provides us \vith a large proportion of our wheat (by common consent the article of fii'st necessity), a proportion which is increasing year by year. The practical point is that the route would be '-more remote from a probable ■ enemy's base than other routes leading to the • British Isles'": practically, indeed, out of range of enemy cruisers, and, at the same time, the distance from our own naval base would be but little increased ; in other words, the proposed route is very advantageous strategically, for protecting and ensuring regular imports of food and raw material. For whilst nothing could prevent rises, in time of war. in the cost of the ]iriui ipal articles of food, owing to comparative shortage and other causes, yet the fact of communication with Canada, and through Canada witli Australia and New Zealand, lieing practically unaifected. would exercise a steadying influence upon home markets, the importance of which can hardly be over-estimated. Without going in detail into the financial aspects of the question, a course which would lie quite outside the functions of the Council, attention may perhaps be drawn to the obvious inference that the reduction of the ocean passage by practically one-thii-d entails advantages in the lesser number of vessels requii'ed, together with all which that implies, from the decreased consumption of coal, of wages, depreciation, food, ic, downwards. Halifax is already the eastern terminus of the trans-Canadian railways. It is impossible to over-estimate the advantages which may follow the transference of the express mail service to Canada. The considerable decrease in the time of transit of the mails even to New York itself had already been touched upon. The diversion of the stream of emigration more and more to British Colonies would be a natural corollary. The develop- ment of trade and all that depends upon maritime relations of such a nature would necessarily take place, this time to the advantage of other portions of the Empire and not of the foreigner. Indeed, a great forward movement would be made towards the desire of the Imperialist to see the Empii-e largely self- supporting. Quite recently, the Canadian Government con- tracted with Canadian steamship lines for a tri-weekly direct serWce in summer, and bi-weekly in winter, and no coiTespondence from the Dominion is apparently despatched cia New York except that which is specially inscribed ^vith'an instniction to that eifect. Theeifect of this has been to decrease the number of mails from Canada, but not, on an avei-age, to increase the time of transit. If this result can be obtained under existing conditions, it is clear that the full participation of the Home Government in the endeavour to transfer the principal mail route to Canada, would bring about results which woiild be of inestimable benefit to the Empire. By order, CHARLES E. MUSGRAVE. Secretary. November 1913. (b) Acceleration of Steamship Services. COREESPONDENCE WITH THE PeNINSUIAE ASD ORIENTAL StEAM NAVIGATION COMPANY AND THE Obient Steam Navigation Company. 1. Royal Commission to P. &. 0. Company, 18th A\:^ust 1913 2. P. & O. Company to the Royal Commission, 21st August 1913 -^ 3! Royal Commission to the Orient Steam Navigation Company, ISth August 1913 4. Orient Steam Navigation Company to the Royal Commission, 26th August 1913 p. 88 p. 89 p. 89 p. 89 1. Dominions Royal Commission, Scotland House, Victoria Embankment, London, S.W. SiK, 18th August 1913. I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission to state that the Commission has recently heard evidence in Australia on the subject of mail communications between the Commonwealth and the United Kingdom. The Chairman is desirous of obtaining as much information as possible as to the cost of accelerating the existing service and would be much obliged if your Company could furnish any approximate statement as to the amovmt which they would think reasonable if the average rate of speed at sea on the Aiistralian seiwice were increased to (a) OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS: STEAMSHIP, POST, AND TELEGRAPH. 80 17A knots, {})) 20 knots, the other conditions of the service remaininii- as at present. The Chairman realises that the question is com- plicated by the fact that the existing contract of the Peninsular and Oriental Company with His Majesty's Government covers the conveyani'S of mails to India and China as well as to Australia, and he thinks that in the circumstances the Company may prefer to deal with the sul)ject in oral evidenc ebefore the Commission. If the Company consider this course more desirable than furnishing a, written statement, the Commission would be glad to hear any representative whom they may depute for the purpose when they resume their sittings in the autumn. I am, Ac, The Secretary, E. J. HARDING. Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. Peninsular and Oi-iental Steam Navigation Company, 122, Leadenhall Street, London E.G. Sir, 21st August 1913. With reference to your letter of the 18th instant I am instructed by the Directors to say that they regret that it is not in their power to give any cleai' evidence on the subject of mail communication between the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth of Australia, either in writing or viva voce. In order t(j accelerate the existing mail service with Australia in the manner suggested by your letter, it would require a new fleet of steamers, at a cost of sevei-al millions sterling, to be followed by a working expenditure which, at the present moment, it is quite impossible to estimate. Such l)eiug the case the Directors do not think it would be advisable to enter into a sei'ies of hypothetical calculations in a matter of such serious importance. But in order to show your Commission that this problem has been before the Company for some years, I am to enclose I'opy of a letter from our Chairman to Mr. Joseph Chaml)erlain, when the latter was Secretary of Stiite for the Colonies, which dealt with certain aspects of the case. I am to ask that the enclosures should be treated confidentially, as the Directors do not wish the letter or memoriiiKbiiu* printed amongst youi' public documents. Circumstances have so far changed since 19(12 thivt the Suez Canal would now admit of much larger vessels passing through than was the case at that date, but the adoption of the Canal route, although it might tend to accelerate the service as compared with that via the Cape (although this is by no means certain, seeing the number of ports which might have to be stopped at) would inevitably increase the working cost of the service. I am, &c., I, M. SHIELDS, The Secretary for Secretary, Domiui(jns Royal Commission. Dominions Royal Commission, Scotland House. Victoria Embankment, London, S.W., Gentlemen, isth August 1913. _ I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission to state that the Commission has * This letter and its enclosures are not pMiited amongst the |iiiblic doouments of the Cominissioi). recently heard evidence in Australia on the subject of accelerating the Mail Service between the Common- wealth and the United Kingdom, and in this connection the Chairman's attention has been called to the provisions of clause 6 of the Agreement between the Commonwealth Government and the Orient Company of the 15th November 190", which referred to the payment of an increased subsidy to the Company, under certain conditions, for an accelerated service. The Commission is desirous of ascertaining as nearly as possible the amount of the additional cost which would be incun-ed by the Commonwealth Government for such an accelerated service, and the Chairman would be obliged if you could inform him approximately what additional subsidy would be thought i-easonable if the rate of speed were increased (a) to 17A knots, and (b) 20 knots, the other conditions of the contract remaining unaltered. I am to add that the Commission would be glad to hear evidence on the subject by a representative of the Company in the autumn, if they should prefer that method of giving the infoimation. I am, &c., Messrs. Anderson and Anderson, E. J. HARDING. 5, Fenchurch Street. 4. Orient Steam Navigation Company, Limited, 13, Fenchurch Avenue, London, E.G., Sir, 26th August 1913. I HAVE to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 18th instant, addressed to Messrs. Anderson. Anderson & Co., asking them to inform your CJiainnan approximately what additional subsidy would be thought reasonable if the rate of speed (by which I understand you to mean average speed at sea) imder this Company's Australian mail contract were increased, (ft) to 174- knots, and (6) to 20 knots. To maintain such average speeds and to preserve practicaljle times of call at intermediate ports a speed considerably higher over long sections of the route would be called for, witli a correspondingly enhanced consumption of coal, the replacement of which ch route would greatly reduce any gain in period of transit. The Orient Company has, within the last four years, in fulfilment of the policy laid down by the Comm(ni- wealth Government, constructed six large mail steamers and is constructing a seventh, at a cost considerably exceeding two millions sterling. These vessels under trial conditions exceii IS knots speed, but the performance of such a contract as you indicate would reijuire their replacement by steamers of an entirely different type, of vastly greater capital and operating cost, and with little, if any, capacity for freight, from which a considerable propor- tion of this Comfjany's present revenue is dei-ived. The revolution in capital account caused by the withdrawal of a new fleet and the building of a still newer one in substitution — to say nothing of the disturljance of revenue possibilities attaching to the new type — wotdd make any approximation with which I could furnish you little better than guesswork, though I have said enough to make it clear that the cost would be enormous and, in the opinion of this (company, out of all proportion to the advantages derivable. In these circumstances a representative of the Company coidd not give effective evidence and I can only i-egx-et my inability to give you more than the information contained above. I am, &c.. E. J. Harding, Esq., E. A. VEALE. Secretary, Secrecai-y. Dominions Royal Commission. E 30S3O M 00 DOMISIOXS UOYAL COMMlSSluX -I'APEIiS LAID BEFORE TUE COMMISSION (c) Memorandum by Professor Sir John Harvard Biles, LL.D., D.Sc, on the Economic Size and Speed of Steam Vessels. Size. Quesiion 1. — To what extent is the assumption valid that a yiveii volume of cargo and passenger trafic can 6« carried more economically by means of a fieet of a few large steamers than by ^neans of a large number of small steamers / An investiijiition into this matter was the basis of a paper read by n;e to the Institution of Naval Archi- tects in 1!M)(I. A carj^o-cairying vessel -lUO ft. long, of 1'2 knots speed, was I'onsidered, and on deiiuite con- ditions as to stability, dimensions of a series of similar shij)s lip to 700 ft. in length were estimated. Tliese dimensions were obtained on two assiunptious, (o) that the di-aught remained constant at 28 ft. ; (6) that the draught varied as the length of the ship. Taking a length of voyage of 5,000 sea miles the following figures were obtained fur the cost of transporting one ton of cargo, («} di'aught constilnt at 28 ft. Length of ship Cost in shillings per ton of cargo ' Ft. Ft. Ft. Ft. 500 550 600 0.50 8-6 9-0 It • <; 10-4 Ft. 700 11-2 {b) Draught varying- Ft. Ft. Ft. Ft. Ft. 1 Length of ship - | 500 Cost in shiOings per ton of cargo - 8 "6 550 j 600 8-0 ■ 7-6 650 7-2 700 7-0 It will be seen that xuider the condition of re- stricted draught the cost of transport steadily increases with increase of length ; whereas if draught be unrestricted the cost steadily decreases with in- crease of length, not, however, at a rate directly proportional to the increase of length. For this Commission a similar investigation was can-ied out, the type ship being a passenger and cargo steamer 490 ft. long and of 14 knots speed. The dimensions of a series of similar ships were estimated for a voyage of 3,000 sea miles, the length ranging up to 1,000 ft., luider the two conditions of (a) constant di'aught 28 ft. 3 Ins., and (b) draught varying as length. The cost of transport per ton was estimated, and it was found that in the 700-ft. ship it was 1 }, times as great ; in the 9i)0-ft. ship it was twice as great ; and in the 1,000-ft. sliij) it was 2i times as great in a ship of restricted draught as in the coiresjjonding length of ship of unrestricted draught. The conclusion that un- restricted di-aught is necessai-y for economic ti^ansport can be arrived at from first principles. The weight of hull for the I'estricted draught vessel increases much more rapidly than the displacement. The beam cannot be increased in the same ratio as the length, or the stability conditions will be interferedVith. Before a great length is reached the deadweight carried no longer increases as the length of vessel increases, but begins to decrease. Further, the excessive proijot-tion of breadth to draught in the large vessel of restricted draught is bad from the point of view of resistance, and, there- fore, those ruiming costs which depend on the power of the machinery are considerably increased. The foregoing results were obtained on the basis of the dimensions of ships which have been designed for specific trades. The weights can-ied, the coal consumed, and the costs of the vessels coire.spond to definite designs. It may be that these designs are not the best possible, but they represent the present day pi-actice. If more economic designs of vessels could be produced they would probably not affect the comparison to an appreciable extent. It will be seen from the aliove that if unrestricted draught is attainable the large vessel will caiTy her cargo more economically than the small vessel, and therefore the fleet of a few large steamers is more economical fur cargo carrying than that of a large number of small steamers. The extent to which this conclusi(/n will hold good is dependent upon the relative amount of cargo and passenger traffic. If there is no jjassenger revenue and the expense of canying passenger accommodation is included in the cost of hull and machinery, the extent to which this assumption is valid seems to be alx)ut that of ships of 7-')0 ft. long. Beyond tliis the cost of carrying cargo in passenger ships steadily increases imtil when the ship is 1,000 ft. long it is 40 per cent, more than at 700 ft. long. If, however, ships 700 ft. and I.OOO ft. long are both full of passengers the extra earnings of the 1,000-ft. ship will about Ijalance the extra cost of carrying the cargo. This question is further dealt with in question 1 of Speed, where it is puinted out that it may be possible to take advantage of increased dimen- sions by modifying the methods of construction. Question 2. — If larger steamers have greater economic vnluc as cargo and jMssenger carriers, to what extent does it follow that the draught must be increased in proportion to increased length and beam I What, theoretically, would be the ideal economic dimensions of a mixed cargo and passenger steamer at given speeds and for given routes / The first part of this question is really answered in the answer to question 1. In the coui-se of the in- vestigations the unrestricted di'aught ships actually had the draught vai'j'ing as length. In the 1,000-ft. ship the draught actually worked out at •57'6ft., so that in order that the fullest advantage may be taken of di-aught it should vary as the linear dimensions. If draught cannot be varied as the linear dimensions, the cost of transport will be between those for the un- restricted and restricted draught ships in proportion to the amount which the increase of draught is short oi the unrestricted di'aught. The ideal economic dimensions of a mixed cargo and i^assenger steamer would be those which, in the case of the imrestrictod draught, had a draught which was the working draught of the harbour. For instance, supposing that a harbour had a working draught of 40 ft., the dimensions corresponding to this draught for 14-knots sjjeed would be about 7iiO by 87 by 71 4 dejith. If the dimensions of this ship are much .increased without increase of ih'aught, the cost per ton of can'ying cargo will rapidly increa-se. The investigations so far carried out deal only with two speeds, 12 and 14 Iniots. The same considei'ations will apply to other speeds. The 12-knot vessel has a most economical length at about 7.^0 ft., and there will be no apjjreciable variation between 700 ft. and 800 ft. This vessel is a pure cargo steamer. In the 14-lniot vessel the economic length is 700 ft., if there is no revenue from passengers ; but if the vessel is full of passengers the 1,000-ft. ship would be, with possible reductions in weight of hull, due to improvements in construction, about as economical as a 750-ft. ship. It may, there- fore, be seen that at 14 knots the economic length may be as low as 750 ft., and cannot be moi'e than 1,000 ft., and there would be a chance that with anything but the fidl number of passengers the smaller ship would be more economical. At 17 knots the economic length for cargo carrying, when there is no revenue from passengere, is 800 ft. ; with the full number of passengers and the possible improved construction the OVERSEA COMMUNICATIO.V.S : STEAM811I1', I'U.ST, AND TELEGIIAPH. 91 1,000-ft. ship would be of about tlie same economy as the 800-ft. ship. It would therefore seem that at 17 knots the most economical length would be some- where between l.OCO and 800 ft., with a partial load of passengers. The most economical length at 20-knots speed is aliout 950 ft. for cargo revenue only. It is evident, therefore, that the 1,000-ft. ship with a speed of 20 knots would be, when carrying passengers, certainly not above the economic length. From this it win be seen as speeds increase the economic limit increases, so that at 20 knots the vessel should be at least 1,000 ft. long with a draught of 57 '6 ft. Questimi 3. — Is the general tendency at present to increase size and draught ? To what extent is the tendency checked by lack of harbour facilities, especially on the various inter-Imperial and Colonial routes f What influence has the Suez Canal had on jnist develop- ments of size, and what influence may altered conditions there and the new conditions prevailing at Panama he expected to exercise ? The tendency to increase of size of ships is shown )iy the two following tables compiled from Lloyd's Register. The first table gives over a period of 10 years the numbers of steamers in existence in each year graded according to tonnage, e.g., between 2,00O and 3,(mj0 tons, 3,000 and 4,000 tons, and so on, up to 10,000 tons and over. The second table gives the information of Table 1 expressed in percentages. For instance, in 1913-11 the steamers between 3,000 and 4,000 tons formed 28 • 5 per cent, of the total number of steamers over 2,000 tons. In 1907-8 the steamers between the same tonnage limits formed 30 • 9 per cent. of the total over 2,000 tons. 2,000- 3,000- 4,000- 5,000- 7,000- 10,000 and over. 3,000. 4,000. 5,000. 7,000. 10,000. 1913-14 2,124 2,158 1,511 1,158 404 206 1912-13 2.077 2,100 1,402 1,015 861 177 1911-12 2,060 2,037 1,219 909 331 158 1910-11 2.062 1,996 1,227 859 298 135 1909-10 2,034 1,946 1,165 818 269 130 1908-9 2,025 1,911 1,126 797 265 119 1907-8 1,995 1,839 1,0.50 716 233 112 1906-7 1,913 1,710 931 644 197 102 1904-5 1,841 1,450 765 538 160 92 1903-4 1,790 1,344 677 508 145 83 Per cent. -, increase m 1913-14 \ 1-' 60 213 228 278 248 over 1903-4 J • The last lino, shows that the greatest percentage increase in numbers in 10 yeiirs is in the vessels of 7^000-10,000 tons, and the next is in 10.000 tons and over, the percentages in the kirger chiss increasing more rapidly in the later years than in any of the other classes. 2,000- 3,000- 4.000- 5,000- 7,000- 10,000 and over. 3,000. 4,000. 5,000. ' 7,000. 10,000. 1913-14 28-1 28-5 1 20-0 15-3 5-3 2-7 1912-13 29-1 29-4 19-6 14-2 50 2-5 1911-12 30-7 30-3 181 ! 13-5 4-9 . 2-4 1910-11 31-4 30-4 18-7 130 4-5 20 1909-10 320 30-6 18-3 12-9 4-2 2-0 1908-9 32-4 30-6 18-0 12-8 4-2 1-9 1907-8 33-6 30-9 17-7 12-0 3-9 1-9 1906-7 34-8 311 16-9 11-7 3-6 1-9 1904-5 38 -O 29-9 15-8 11-1 3-3 1-9 1903-4 39-4 29-5 14-9 11-2 3-2 1-8 It will be seen that the percentage of the total formed by vessels between 2,000 and 3,000 tons is steadily decreasing. The percentage of vessels between 3,000 and 4,000 tons increased from 1903 to a maximum in 1907 and is now stea<lily decreasing. The percentages of vessels of all grades over 4,000 tons are steadily increasing over the range of years in the table, that for vessels from 5,000 to 7,000 tons increasing rapidly. The relatively rapid increase in the percentage of the grade from 5,000 to 7,000 tons is dne to the fact that at the present time the most popular size of cargo carrier is one between these limits. For ships over 10,000 tons the percentages are, 1910-11, 20; in 1913-14, 2-7. In 1912-13 there were 17 ships between 15,000 and 20,000 tons. In 1913-14 there were 29 ships betweeu these limits. In no oases over 10,000 tons lias there been a decrease in numbers ; the total increase in numbers of vessels over 10,000 tons being in the last year from 177 to 206. That the depth of harbours has had a, restrictive effect on the draught of shijis is shown by the fact that the modem large vessel has not the most economic ratio of draught to breadth and length. The printed memorandum on the Suez Canal* and the relative advantages of trade through it and round the Cape has dealt very fully with this subject. The general conclusions reached seem to be that as far as the distant Dominions are concerned there would be little advantage gained by any pi-acticable deepening of the Suez Canal. The rate at which the Canal has been deepened would if continuously applied take many years to reach 40 ft., and even then there would be no appreciable gain in using the Canal for the far- off Dominions. As far as India and China are con- cerned there would still be an advantage on account of distance saved. It may be that the increased draught (40 ft.) available in the Panama Canal will make it possible to run more economic steamers of greater length to China in spite of the greater distance, but, as stated in the above-mentioned memorandum, " the " result of the opening of the Panama Canal route " will depend on many features which are not clearly " defined, e.g., tolls, intermediate coaling stations, '■ amount of traffic, &c." One thing which may be an advantage to the Suez (janal is that the distances for which coal has to be canned are less for a ship going through the Canal than for one going round the Cape ; therefore, tlie average amount of coal carried on a voyage to or from Australia is less. This, however, is probably outweighed l)y the fact that coal can be bought more cheaply on the Cape route than oil the Canal route. Obviously, the relative advantage m the two routes in this respect must depend on the relative cost of coal. It seems, however, that if deep harbours can lie got at both ends of the voyage there willUie a considerable economic advantage for some time in favour of tin- Cape route. Question 4. — What dfplh of harbour is desirable to meet the rcquirom,cnts of the deiiclopmenfs of naval construction during, say, the next 20 or 30 years, especially in the ports of the Dominions and Colonies ? From what has been stated in answer to question 1 on size it will be seen that to attain the most economic transport a vessel of a length of at least 750 ft., having a draught of 43 • 2 ft. should be provided for. It is obvious that for such a, vessel a draught of Iiarbour of at least 45 ft. should be pi-ovided. The question as to whether this should Ije at lowest low water or at lowest high water must depend on the volume of trade at the harbour. The reference made later in Speed, question 1, to the possibility of lightened ship construction in ships of greater length than 700 ft., say 1.000 ft., and the influence of such lightening upon the economically best length, is difficult to detennine without very detailed consideration of ship design. It seems, however, that in .ships ,*'« page 61 of [Cd. 7210]. M 2 92 nOillNIONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPER.S LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: 1,000 ft. long it would l.>e possilile safely to reduce the weiglit of structure a suificieut amount to make the eargo-canymg rate sufficiently near to that of the 750-ft. sliip that the cargo revenue, together with the enlarged passenger revenue due to the longer ship, •would make the l.OUO-ft. ship a more economical oan-ier than the 750-ft. ship. From this would follow the necessity of a di-aught corresponding to l,(IO0-ft. length, which is 57 6 ft. Therefore, it seems that an improvement in construction involving a reduction in weight of structure must be accompanied hy an increase of depth of harbour before it can l)e made profitable. It is not unreasonable to pi-edict, therefore, that within 20 or 30 years a depth of harbour of 60 ft. could be profitably employed. Question 5. — To what extent can. lighieraije facilities be regarded as a substitute for deepened quay accom- modation given adequate depth at entrance and at anchorage ! To answer this question fully would involve an investigation of the relative costs of constructing and maintaining quay walls and those of constructing, maintaining and running lighters. The double handling of cargo involved in lightei-age would also require to be considered. The cost of harbour works is purely a question of local circumstances, and, therefore, cannot be considered in general terms. It might be found that an ideal system woidd be to provide for a given locality a single deep-water harbour with efficient protection from the open sea and a fleet of relatively lai-ge lighters (in fact, small cargo vessels) to travel round the coast and act as feeders and distributors for the large vessels using the deep-water harbour. This system is particularly applicable to the case where the deep-water harbour is at the end of a long sea voyage. more than running at 14 knots, and at 2ll knots it is practically pri_)liibitive. At 7U0 ft. the difference between 14 and 17 knots is 800 ft. it is 41 per cent, more, also about 18 per cent. more, ditt'erences between 17 and 20 knots the cost For 800 ft. the 32 per cent, more, at it Olio and 1,000 ft. it is There are als.i similar 20 knots. For 70i) ft. at i«i more than double that at 17. increase is about 5(1 per cent., for 900 ft. it is 30 per cent., and for 1,000 feet it is 17 per cent. more. It will be seen from this that the per- centage difference in cost of transport at the same speed decreases as the length increases. It will also be seen tliat the cost of transport increases with increase of speed, but very much less in the great lengths than in the small ones. The following tables give comparative costs of carrying cargo at different speeds and different lengths of ship : — Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo ti,0(ll) sea miles (coaling half way). Length. Draught. Speed in Knots. 14. ! 17. 20. 490 28-25 1-01 1)00 34-6 •87 M2 700 40-3 •88 1^16 2 59 800 46-1 •87 123 1-89 900 51-9 1-05 1-23 1-61 1,000 57-6 1-2 1-43 1^68 Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo fi.dOO sea miles, coal fuel being carried for the whole dist:ince. Speed. Question 1. — -Assuming a fixed speed, in. what ratio will increased size provide lower cost of transport ? Obviously there is a certain limit to the reduction of ti-ansport cost consequent upon the increased size of vessels. The figui-es given in (6) draiight varying (Size. Question 1) indicate the i-ate of reduction of cost with increase of size. It will be seen that the rate of re- duction of cost tends to faU off at the greatest lengths. It will probably be found on account of the ratio of hull weight to total displacement tending to increase with increase of size, that a minimum cost will be found at some length not yet reached, and that beyond this length the cost of transport will increase with increase of size, even if the draught is unrestricted. To determine this length with any approach to accu- .racy, involves a consideration of the whole question of ship construction. The scantlings, and. therefore, the weights of the structure of the ship, are based upon an assumption of the wave dimensions which the ship is likely to meet. These assumptions are justifiable within the limits of e.xisting ship construction, but. in view of the fact that the waves of the sea will not increase with the size of the ship, it is evident that thex-e will come an increased size of ship to which these assumptions will not be justifiable and. in con- sequence, the scantlings and weights will not increase in the proportions that they have increased for ships limited to the present sizes, when we come to deal with ships very much hirger than present ships This consideration may modify the results of calcuLitions l.iased upon present practice, and therefore it may be i^racticable in designing to assume a weight of hull less than has been taken by using the assumptions at present made, and in consequence the cost of transport in ships of 1.000 ft. long and above may be less than has been estimated. Question 2. — Assuming vessels of a given size, in what ratio will increase of speed affect the cost of transport per ton-mile ? The answer to this question is different for different sizes of ships. For instance, at 600 ft. the post per ton-mile of running at 17 knots is 63 per cent. Coal. Length. Draught. Speed in knots. 14 j 17 20 490 28-25 1-4 _ _ 600 34-6 109 2-44 — 700 40^3 1-09 1-60 — SOO 46^1 1-04 1^68 5 31 900 51-9 1^28 1-68 3 24 1,000 57-6 1-46 1^88 3^08 Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo for 6,000 sea miles, oil fuel .being carried for the whole distance. Oil. 400 28^25 151 600 :34 6 120 2-35 — 700 40-3 119 1-73 5-31 800 461 113 1-65 3-30 900 51 • 9 1-36 1-71 2-67 1,000 57-6 1-49 1^92 2-60 Table of cost of carrying one ton of cargo fn 3,000 sea miles, oil fuel being carried for t)ie whul distance. OilFuel. 490 28 • 25 •63 6()(» 34 6 -54 ■87 — 700 40 3 •54 -70 1-45 800 461 ■53 -,69 112 900 51-9 ■63 ■72 -99 1,000 57^6 -70 -81 ■99 OVERSEA COMMUNICATIONS : STEAMSHIP, POST, AND TELEGRAPH. 93 Talile (if cost of caiTjing one ton of cargo 3,000 sea miles, coal fuel being earned for the whole distance. Coal Fuel. Length. JJnuight. Speed in knots. 28^20 14 ■5 15 •HO 17 20 490 (iOO 34^6 ■43 ■71 700 40^3 ■44 . ■58 1^29 800 46-1 ■43 ■61 ■94 90(.) 51-9 ■52 — ■61 ■80 1.000 57^6 ■6 — ■71 ■84 As showing the great loss due to restricted draught the following table is given showing cost <if c;in-ying one ton 3,00(( miles, coal fuel lieing carried for the whole distance. For vessel 'W x 29' draught and for one 700' x 40 • 3' draught. Speed in knots. Length. Drau ^■ht. 14 17 20 700 700 29 40 3 •69 ■44 •86 •58 2^73 1^29 Quesiimi 8. — The average rates of speed of the weeldy ■iiiitil steaiiisrs riuining to Aiidralia and South Africa are no>v (ihimt !■'> knots. Could approximuie Jig ures he given of the cost of increasing the speed (aj to 1?}^ knots; (b) to 20 knots ; (c) to 22h knots, mi the assumption that shipoivners were unable to recoup themselves by increased, passage or freight rates ! • If it is not possible to furnish any tipproximatc figures, could an indication be given as to the principal factors which would (a) increase ; (b) decrease cost. Before answering this (juestion it should be noted that the figiu'es previously given are comparative and, therefore, aljsolute accuracy is of little importance pro- vided they are comparatively coiTect. To answer this question it will be necessary to obtain approximately accurate figxires and the revenues obtainable. This would involve an inquiry similar to that undertaken by Lord Camperdown's Mercantile Auxiliaries Committee in 1902.* May I venture to call your attention to the additional remarks which 1 made when signing the report of Lord Camperdown's Committee which read as follows : — " While I fully agree with my colleagues in the above Report, 1 am of opinion that the terms of reference admit of a much wider interpi^etation of the qviestion than it has received. We have dealt with the ' cost ' of securing ships of stated speeds, * [Cd. 1379.] but the consideration of the ' manner ' of securing them has been contined wholly to the (luestion of how much money payment iu the form of Admiralty subvention would secure a ship for purely naval purposes. The scheme of subsidies indicated in the Report can, imder existing conditions, only apply to Atlantic ships. But. inasmuch as speed is a desideratmn upon other mail routes, it seems to me to be desirable to can-y this inquii^y further in order to consider the practicability of securing high-speed vessels on such mail roiites. Fast steamers can be run in conjunction with a large fleet of vessels of lower speed with commercial advantage to the fleet as a whole, though indi- vidvially the fast vessels may lose money, and in consequence it seems to be practicable to secure vessels such as are required by the Admiralty by inserting in all future mail contracts (which should iim for a period of ten years) a condition that a definite proportion of the ships of each contracting company should fulfil the Admiralty requirements as to speed and other essentials. The results of this would lie to secure to the public service a well-distrilmted and adequate number of meixian- tile auxiliaries of high speed. "The Government business in connection with subsidised steamers should, in my opinion, be dealt with by a single department and, as the chief service to be rendered would relate to mails, while the work of the mercantile auxiliaries for the Admiralty would be at most an incidental matter, except in war-time, it seems that this business should be conducted by the Post Office." From this it will Ije seen that my opinion at that time was that the inquiry should have been continued to include the ('ases about which .you are miw asking this question. The figures given in the table in the report may form a niugh guide to the amount of the subsidy in tei-ms of speed, but inasmuch as prices of ships and costs of i-unning vary from time to time, no approximately reliable data can be obtained without the above-mentioned investigation. Question 4. — Is the general tendency at present to build faster vessels — (1) mail steamers, (2) liners, and (3) tramps? If so, is it possible to forecast the general rate of acceleration during say the iicct 20 or 30 years ? To what degree will the construction, of faster vessels be determined by the provision of improved harbour facilities {including dry docking), and especially of deejMsr harbours .' From the. answers to the preceding questions it will be seen that if speed be increased the cost of carriage will increase. It is exceedingly difficult to estimate what inci-eased revenue comes from passengers on account of increased speed, but it seems not at all improbable that in vessels of 1,000 ft. long and 20 knots speed the extra cost of carrymg cargo may be more than lialanced by the extra passenger revenue, liut such vessels would not be built with advantage vuiless the harliours were deepened to draughts cor- responding to the draughts associated with the econi>mic length. December 1913. (ii) Cables. (a) Letter from the Commercial Cable Company in reply to the request from the Dominions Royal Commission for Evidence on the Australasian Traffic, Commercial Cable Building, 63 & 64, Gracechui'ch Street, London, B.C., Sir, November l.Sth, 1913, In compliance with your reqviest we hereby give our views on the question of a reduction in the Atlantic proportion of the rate for messages between Australasia and Great Britain. In the first place we respectfully b(>g to point o>it that the Atlantic proportion of this rate is 25 per cent, lower than the Atlantic proportion of the I'ate for messages l)etween Great Britain and othei^ parts of the Western Hemisphere. The Atlantic cable proportion of the rate between Great Britain and Australia is i)d. per word for subject of effecting Keductious in Kates for ordinary mes.sagcjs and 4;^(/. for deferred plain lang«age messages with practically no minimum. Tliis was a special itoncession made to Great Britain and her Oversea,s Dominions. This rate is cheaper than any rate iu the woi-ld, and we would invite comparison between that rate and the rate charged liy the Britisli Government for messages between Great Britain and the Continent of Europe over Goverument-omxed cables. Taking France, for example, we find the rate for ordinary messages between Great Britain and that country 2d. per word, with a minimum of 10<7., notwith- standing tlu^ fact that the cable distance is only 22 miles from .shore to shore, and each cable contains from four to six working wires, each wire capable of transmitting four messages at the same time M 3 94 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION:- — PAPEliS LAID UEFORE THE COMMISSION The Atlantic cable between Cauada anil the coast of England is "2,-r>7"2 nautical miles in length, or IIJ times longer than the cable between Great Britain and France, and has only one conductor limited to lower speeds than the Government cables, and capable of transmitting only two messages at the same time. Hence each Government cable between Great Britain and France has an earning capacity more than eight times that of a titans-Atlantic cable for a capital out- lay 112 times less, at lower cost of operation and maiintenance. and yet no proposition is made to reduce the rates over the Government cables. Proliably this is because there is already a large amiual deficit in the Telegraph Department oi the Government, but surely it cannot lie considered reasonable to force the private companies to accept rates which are lower proportion- ately than any of the Government rates and which would force upon the private companies burdens which the Governments are not willing to carry themselves. When the Atlantic cables are interrupted their earning piower is suspended for long periods, to say nothing of the large cost of effecting repairs, pai-ticularly when such repairs have to be made in deep water. It surely cannot be reasonalily argued that the rate of !'rf. a word is too high when compared with the rate of 'Id. a woi'd between England and France. The present Atlantic rates, and particularly the rate for Australasian messages, are as low as thej' can lie made if the companies are to be allowed to continue to earn any profit on the capital invested and set aside proper reserves. In September 15112 the British and Canadian Postmasters - General demanded reductions in the Atlantic cable rates. Certain reductions were made at that time and tliese reductions also applied to Australasian traffic. We were orally told at that time that unless the reductions demanded Viy the EngUsh and Canadian Postmasters-General were made those Governments would lay a State-owned cable and would then make rates even lower than those demanded. We liave to say that the reductions which the British and Canadian Postmasters-General expect the Atlantic companies to make do not rest on any real luisiness basis, and they have no right to use the power of their Governments to injiue private enterprise. We would respectfully ask that you fully c(_>nsider what would become of the large anioimt i:>f money invested liy the British and Canadian public in Atlantic cable securities and particularly those of the Anglo-American Tele- graph Company and the Direct United States Cable Company. It is true that those companies have been taken over under long leases by the Western Union Telegraph Coiapany, and that the shai-eholders of those companies are at the present time enjoying a guaranteed dividend given by the Western Union Company, but we also invite yoiu- consideration of the possibility that those leases will be invalidated by action of the United States Government on account of their illegality under the Anti-Trust Law of the United States, and if this should come about the Anglo-American and Direct United States Cable Com- panies would then be thl•o^vn upon their own resources ; and we believe those companies could not realise a profit on the present rates, to say nothing of a further reduction in the rates, because prior to their being taken over by the Western Union Company those com- panies did not earn more than about 3 ■8-5 per cent, on their capital. The British public hold about 8.00(1.000?. of the securities of the Anglo-American and the Direct United States Companies, and these investors do not by any means rest secure under the guarantee of dividends by the Western Union Telegraph Company. It would seem that a most pertinent inquiry would l>e. how much is at present being earned by the Anglo- American iind Direct United States Companies in view of the recent reductions in cable rates and the constantly increasing expenses ; this wi>uld show whether those companies could eai'n a fair return on their investment if they should be obliged to operate again their re.spective plants at the present low cable rates. Previous to their absorption by the Western Union, the Direct Company only paid 4 per cent. di\-idend and the Anglo Company an average of only 3i per cent. Certainly those were not fair returns on the investment ev^n when the i-ates were not as low as now. Since the Western Union regime the rates havs l)een still further reduced, and it would not be surprising if an investigation now made into the operations of the Direct and Anglo Companies, on the basis of independent corporations, would show that they would be compelled to reduce their previously low dividends if not suspend them altogether. This suggestion is made because sooner or later we believe the United States Government will declare illegal, as they are (Judge Parker, of the English Bench, hainng also intimated it) the leases of those two comjianies to the Westena Union. Request has already been made to the Attomey-Greneral of the United States to take legal action to have the leases of the properties of those companies to the Western Union Company declared illegal. If this should come to pass those jiroperties will lie thrown back into the hands of the British investors, and as the old pooling agreement lietween the Anglo. Direct, and Western Union Com- panies cannot legally be restored, then opei-ating their own property under rates made without regard to capital and cost of operation, would show what a disastrous effect the recent rate reductions have had upon those companies, witkout considering further reductions. On December ."tth, ll'll, in a speech in Parliament tlie Postmaster-General of Great Britain made the following statement : — •■ Under the new regulations of the Telegraph Convention the use of codes has been largely extended, and code telegi-ams can be sent cheaply." Again in Parliament, on April 4th. 1912. he said : — •' But moi-e important than any reductions in the partieulai' i-ates to the commercial community at large has been a change which was effected at the last International Telegraph Conference. At that Conference the use of artificial code words was sanctioned. The result of that has been that a single word sent in code across the cable was now able to contain within itself four, five, six, and sometimes as many as seven or eight ordinary words. The commercial commimity had derived more advantage fiom that cliange than from any reduction of rates even as great as those that had been suggested." As about 98 per cent, of Atlantic messages were in code there was very little room left for further reduction. Notwithstanding this, the companies made reductions in December 1911 and Januarj' 1912 in the remaining classes of traffic, and these reductions are so great that they speak for themselves : — Plain language, deferred - 50 per cent, reduction. Press messages, .. - -50 .. ,, Cable letters - - - 70 Week-end letters - - 80 These reduced rates had Ijeen in effect only a few months when, in September 1912. a further reduction of oO per cent, was made in the press rates, and on January 1st, 1913. a reduction of 25 per cent, was made in the deferred plain language rates. We call attention to the fact that in 19o2 the Inter-Departmental Committee on Cable Communica- tion were instructed to examine the i-ates and to report how far they were fair and reasonable, and that Com- mittee, after going into the question most exhaustively, said : — "The Atlantic companies provide, imder the influence of competition, an efficient service at a low rate, wliich they have attempted unsuccess- fidly to reduce still furthei'." Since the above lejjort was made operating expenses in all large enterprises have increased by vast sums. Therefore, the report is more forceful now than it was then. The dispositiiin of the cable companies to meet public requirements is conspicuously sho^NTi in their attitiide towards code language employed to condense despatches and so leduce the charge for cable trans- missions. The Postmaster-General in his parliameutai-y speech of April 4th, 1912, aliove referred to, expressed vei'y cleai'ly and concisely the code feature. Those who use the cable day by day are Tiighly expert in OVERSEA COMMIINICATIONS : .sTEAMSHIP, POST, ANIi TELEGRAPH. 9.1 devising ciphei- codes, which enable them to express many words by one word. Originally these code words had to be selected from dictionaries, and were therefore confined to genuine words. Owing to the complaints that the restriction to genuine words did not give merchants a sufiicient range of words to make up efficient codes, the cable companies have gradually relaxed their rules and have admitted ai-tificial or manufactured words which are supposed to have some resemblance to real words. The extent to which advantage has been taken of this liberality may be judged fi-om the following example of ai'tificial code words, taken from actual cablegrams, alleged to lie pronounceable : — ot/.azdpyam. fenijaxhay. dhexliatse. sowifiojli. yothgidwe. jusas. johweretlyk. uglusniupk. advefeepun. heihlgywdu. av/.yrjahvo. ubljpgobud. azacukbac. ymfubybfuz. tozoyihega,. vezkoagonz. ugdulpugec. nypuaufvig. vusufeozud. oszapopwex. erkieaymoc. aukanxevak. xetieisaob. miezyifcag. wecabuvujz. dytpsufyl. rizylizkeh. pysohfufco. opcehevder. umyzaehmys. pmiktanxih. ijoxasosoy. Each of these so-called words really I'epresents 10 figures ; the h) figures are two groups of ii figures ; and each group of 5 figures represents a sepa7'ate code- word and each code word easily represents, on the average, at least 10 plain words. The net result is that each of the alx)ve so-called code words, i-epresenting at least '20 words in plain language, is transmitted at a total cost of 2-5 cents. The cable companies are transmitting these notwithstanding that they are an imposition. Ex-Postmaster-General Buxt<in. in a letter to the London Chamber of Commerce, characterised them as an abuse. To transmit artificial code words by ca))le is most difficult. To transmit them with speed is impossible. There is nothing in those words to guide the receiving operator, and the ever-varying electric and magnetic forces of the earth produce in the cables disturbances which interfere seiiously with the cable signals. modifying and even eliminating them, and yet any change or omission of even one letter would change the meaning of the whole word. The result is that the cari-ying capacity of a cable is reduced over 25 per cent. In addition to that, many of the above so-called words have to be repeated. These repetitions place upon the cables a large amount of unremunerated work, and cause delay to other traffic. By reason of all this the earning power of a cable is very greatly reduced, while the expense for operating is increased. When it is borne in mind that about 88 per cent, of the ca))le messages are still in cipher code and each code word, as explained above, represents at least 20 plain words, it will be seen that cablegrams in code bring the rate down to less than one penny a word for the translated message. On April 4th. 1912, the Postmaster-General stated that he adhered to the position he took at the Imperial Conference that a State-owned cable across the Atlantic would undouV)tedly lie ruu at a loss. The scheme of a State-owned Atlantic cal)lo is nothing more or less than a proposal to use the tax- payers" money to carry on a business at a loss, ti> the ruin of private cable property already in the Atlantic, aggregating over 20,000,000?. in value. A similar suggestion was made in 1902. and the luter-Dep.irt- mental Committee above referred to reported as follows ; — '■ We are not in favour either of the working of cables by the State at a loss or of the subsidizing of private cables on commercial grounds, both of which courses appear to us to burden the general taxpayer unfairly for the benefit of a special class. " The laying, working, and maintenance of a cable requires the expenditure of a definite and substantial amomit of capital ; and the cai-rying capacity secured in return is limited. It must not always be assumed tliat an increase of traffic is necessarily a benefit to the company concerned. So long as the cable is n(jt worked to its full capacity, increase of traffic, unless accompanied by a heavy increase in working expenses, implies an increase in net revenue. But when the increase is so great as to necessitate the laying of a new cable, the case is different ; and it will be obvious that, at a certain point, a limit is reached beyond which reductions in rates cannot possibly lie made. Even when the cables of a company are fully occupied, messages cannot be carried below a rate which will provide for interest on capital, expenses of working, maintenance, and so on." The amount expended by all cable companies for maintenance and repairs is enormous — the total sum is little realised by the public. For instance, it is costing the Commercial Cable Company over 14,l)iliiZ. a year to miiintaiu a repairing steamer at the whai-f, on the Americiin side, in readiness to proceed to sea at short notice, and in addition thei'eto a large amount is expended when the steamer puts to sea to repair a cable. Then there is the expense of repairing the cables themselves. Sometimes a single break costs over 10,000/. for repairs, and often it is necessaiy to put in from 10 to -JO miles of new calde, which increa.ses the maintenance and cost of repair to a still lai'ger figure. On one occasion it cost the Commercial Cable Company 18.400/. for a single repair. In 1908 the company paid 2-5.400/. for the use of other cable repairing ships, and this was in addition to the expenses of the company's own steamer. It costs the company many thousands of pounds each year for the hire of cable repair ships to take care of repairs on the European side. The next year, 1909, was full of mishaps, heavy expenditures, and incessant troubles. The following extract from the annual report of the chairman of the Anglo-American Telegraph Company, to the shareholders of that company, held in Londtm on February 4th, 1910, sets forth one of the difficulties which was experienced by the cable companies during that year and which has not been peculiar to that year alone :■ — ■• Now, when we talk about this repair of the 1874 cable, at the previous meeting I told you we had spent a little more than 1-5.000/. on that repair, and I think I said I hoped we should not have to expend much nmre ; l)ut I am sony to say that my forecast has not been verified, and that we had to expend during the past half-year so much more, that altogether the repau's cost us over 53,00(J/. Now, you may say that is a very large sum to expend upon repairs, but we were most unf jrtunate with rega.i'd to the weather, for when we were grappling in about two miles of water the weather was vei-y )jad, and again and again we failed to pick up the cable ; but at last it was picked up and repaired, and it is now, we believe, as good a cable as it ever was. Of course, we cannot say what may happen, but so far as we can see the cable is working certainly as well as it ever worked. Now. during the year we not only had to repair the 1874 calde. but we also had to repair the 1873 cable. Still, we were much more fortunate in our repairs with regard to the 1873 cable than we were with regard to the repair of the 1874 cable, for the 1873 cable was repaired \vith an expenditure of 11 miles of new cable, while the 1874 cable required 240 miles. The sti-ength of this calile had deteriorated through age, and the ship woiking in water over 2 miles deep found it impossible to recover an end until a gap of 240 miles had been made. In the case of the 1873 cable we were fortunate in losing it for only 'S'.i days, but in the case of the 1874 cable we lost it for over Id months. This shows you some of the risks attaching to con- ducting cable business, and I do not think that our experience is a solitai-y one. I expect that if other cable companies gave you an account of breakages, and so on. that they would have to give you an acccnnit similar to that which we present to you. Therefore, it shows that the laying and the maintaining of cables is not so M DOMI>'IONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: cheap a matter a£ some people think it to be. I wonder whether those who talk so easily of laTins cheap cables — whether it ever entered into their^ndnds as to what it will cost to maiatain them. Now. we know that these breakages have taken place more on account of ti-awlers than from any other cause. You, gentlemen, will no doubt rememl>er that so many repaii-s had been made in our cables off the Irish coast, that we decided in 190G to renew all oui- older cables in that locality; and in consequence in that year 80 miles of new cable were inserted in the 1873 cable, cutting <iut 12 pre\"ious repairs. In 1907 Gl miles in the 1^74 cable were inserted, cutting out 9 previoiis repairs, and in the same year 58 miles wei-e inserted in the 1880 cable, cutting out 7 previous repau-s ; so that, but for the trawlers, we mitfht hope to be free from interruptions in that quarter for some time to come. Therefore, this question with regard to the trawlers is a very serious matter. I told you. the last time we met. that a conference had taken place between the Board of Trade and the Admindty and the Fishery Board and the Post Office, and that a commission was appointed to inquire into this matter, and that at this inquiry we proposed that trawlei-s should not be permitted to fish in shallow watei-s off the Irish coast. The Com- mittee did not see their way to agree to this, and so these breaks in our cables, which are so extensive, continue to exist, and these l>reaks are verv expensive to you. and cause, sometimes, a delav in the traffic. We are still in communica- tion'with the Fishery Board on the matter, and a suggestion has been made that an alteration in the form of trawl might prevent these damages to the cables. We sincerely hope that the matter wiU be taken up, because however strong oiu- cables are, these big trawlers with their powerful machinery, going to the depth that they do, proves to us that there are no cables that can stand the attacks upon them. I hope that atten- tion having been called to this matter, and the shareholders bearing this subject in mind, that some stronger steps may be taken to avoid the danger which arises from trawlers in the future." There is no reason to expect that the rans- Atlantic cables will lie free from damage or breakage in the tutiue any more than they ha\e t)een in the past. On the contrary, the agencies which inflict the injury are multiplying and extending the field of their operations, and the cable companies must take into account the probabilities that their repair bills and loss of traffic n-ill increase and will not tliminish. One of oiu- cables was damaged in 1909 about 65 miles from our cable landing at Dover Bay, Kova Scotia, and we were in consequence deprived of its use for three months. When making the repair our repairing ship found that for a distance of ih miles the cable had been caught alxiut every 10 fathoms by steam trawlei-s and had" been flattened, twisted, and subjected to great strain. The strongest, newest, and best cables are not immune from the depredations and devastations of these trawlers. The Commercial Cable Company has had three cable-ships at sea at one time repairing or replacing disrupted cables. For over six months continuously, during 1909, we had at no time o>u- entire facilities working, there being some break somewhere during all that penod. The expense connected with all this has been enoi-mous, to say nothing of the loss of business on account of not having complete facilities. The Western Union Telegraph Company, we are told, for nearly nine months had both of its cables entirely disrupted and out of use. The direct United States Company, which has one cable in the Atlantic Ocean, has also been interrupted many times. In 1910 we completed the expenditure of 300,000/. in our cables, principally in order to avoid, if possible. inteiTuptious by anchors and trawls of fishing vessels. In 191-2 we again expended over 80,u00/. for the same purpose, and we are now engaged in the work of renewiug 100 miles of cable on the Eiu-opean side, which has suffered badly from ti-jwlers and anchors. The cost of this renewal will exceed 30,000Z. As further pixiof of the unexpected heavy expenditures to which we are subject we might mention that on the American side we have dining the past year been compelled to make changes in the location of oui- cables which will cost the comjiauy approximately 100,000?. and the company will not derive the slightest benefit therefrom. Ar.c! yet iu the face of all this and the great reductions made only a few months ago, it is proposed that the cable companies should futher reduce their rates. The demand is luu-easonable. Qmte a differ- ent poUcy is Ijeing followed by Germany and Fiunce. Thei-e, not only are the present cables rates (which are the same as the rates charged by the companies mentioned above) maintained without complaint, but those Governments pixstect the income of the French and German cable companies by sulisidies or guar- antees. It would seem that the least which the Governments of Great Britain. Canada, and Australia miirht do would be to refrain from impairing the income of the British and American cable companies. Furthermore, we quote from the testimony given by the British Postmaster-General on June 15th. 1911. liefore the Imperial Conference.* His testimony clearly points how a logical and justifiable reduction in the rate to Austi-alia could be made without forcing unwarrantable losses upon the cable companies. His testimony is as follows : — •' It ciinnot be ui-ged that on the groimd of efficiency the present service is unsatisfactory, because I think it is agreed on all hands that the work is done by the companies with veiy great speed and accuracy. Then the question remains as to whether it is necessary to incur this expendi- ture and possible, or as I think probable, loss in order to cheapen cable i-ates. If no steps were lieing taken with that ol>ject in riew then possi- bly a strong case might l:>e made out or a stronger case at all events than is now made out for laying a State-owned cable across the Atlantic , but in view of the halving of the lates on deferred telegrams which is now agreed to by the companies and in view of the fact that we are now establishing State control over all rates as fast as the landing licences expire, it appears to me that the Governments would not be justified in putting their hands iu their pockets in order to make this large capital expenditure which is. in our view, very likely to )>e unremu- nerative. There is one means. I would suggest to Mr. Pearce. by which the cable rates between this countiy and Australia might be reduced. The rate now by the Pacific route is thi-ee shillings a word, and it is made up in this way : the i-ate from any part of England to Montreal is lOfZ.. and that includes the expense from the town in England, wherever it may be, to the cable, across the Atlantic, and from the landing- place on the other side to Montreal — from Montreal to the Pacific the chai-ge is 2d. — from the Pacific Coast of Canada to Australia the charge is Is. 7rf., but in Austi-alia itself the chai-ge is bd " The chaise is bd. as compared with the charge of less than Id. a word for inland tele- - grams from any portion of Australia to any other portion. Mr. Pearce tells me the i-ates vary, but in no case are they more thiin Id. a word. If Australia would reduce her charges for handling the Pacific Board's traffic to her ordinary inland rate she would at once reduce the cost of cablegrams between this counti-y and Australia by 4d. a word, which is very nearly equal to the reduction which is contemplated by halving the Atlantic rates." The demand for reduced rates Ijetween Gi-eat Britain and Australasia is not justified. Those countries already enjoy a much lower rate than would be possible if the I'ate had to be fixed for a cable service dejiendent on theii' traffic alone. It is the large volume of United States traffic that rendei-s * P. 303 of [Cd. 5745], OVERSfiA COMMtTNlCATKmS: STfiAJlSIIlP, I'OST, AND TELEGRAPH. 97 po8sil)le the low trans-Atlantic ratf for the smaller volume of Canadian and Anstralian traffic. The cable rates aci-oss the Atlantic are the lowest cable rates in the world. The companies, and especially this com- pany, have already shown their friendly disposition towards Great Britain, Canada, and Australasia by making a special rate for the traffic between Avistralia and Great Britain. The Canada-Australia Pacific cable is now being used freely by United States business concerns at the expense of the British and Canadian and Australasian taxpayers. That cable cost some two million pounds sterling to make and lay, and has already a deficit of 596,9552. This cable reduced the charges on America- Australia cablegrams by 33 per cent., and diverted the traffic from privately-owned British caljles to the Government cable sustained liy the taxpayers. The willingness of the public to j)ay for rajjid cable service is shown by the fact that at the present time, and day by day, messages between English jxiints and Continental and Eiuvjpean points are cabled from England to New York and fi-om New York back to the Continental European points, at a cost of 2s. a word, although such messages might be sent direct {nmi England to those pt>ints at '2d. a word, the public being willing to pay voluntarily 12 times as high a rate in ordei- to get a speedy ser\ace. One shilling, or the 25 cent rate, is a fair rate, yet we charge only iki. for Australasian messages. This Is. rate is no more than is necessary to pay operating expenses and to keep the plant in thorough repair and readiness to furnish the best possible service in point of regularity, acciu-acy, and speed, and to pay a very reasonable return on the money invested. The service rendeied is worth the money and cannot be rendered for less. The only comparison to be made with it is the State-owned British Pacific cable, which in the few years of its existence compelled the tax- payers to increase their taxes to the amount of 590,955Z. After 44 years' experience in meeting the demands of the public for a first-class cable service. I am confident that merchants, who depend npon the )-apid and accurate transmission of their messages to carry into effect important and valuable business transactions, would not receive the efficient service from a Government ciible nor from private companies at lower rates than they are at present receiving from the Atlantic cable companies, stimulated as they are by keen competition. We have received the suggestion for further reduction in rates with astonishment and disappoint- ment. We had hoped that the concessions made so recently would have been satisfactory. On the contrary, we find that the concessions made have only had the effect of creating an agitation for more concessions. This agitation, however, is that of the Press only. Tlie profits of the newspapers are large. nuich larger than the profits from submarine cables and yet the Press are demanding lower cable rates in order that their profits may be increased. As to the claim that the poor man wishes to use the cable and wants cheaper rates, we would say that the recent reduction in deferred plain language cablegrams by 64 per cent, was for that very purpose, and yet our statistics show that thei-e is no demand for that kind of service on the part of the poor man, and that the use of this cheap deferred plain language sei-vice is by the commercial houses and by the wealthier classes. The fact is that the emigrant and poor man does not send any cablegrams at all. As a rule he does not even write. The universal complaint is that he does not communicate at all. Finally, we would call attention to the fact that there is a wireless service at the present time between (jrreat Britain and Canada at lower rates than those idiarged by the cable companies, and that the British Government have made arrangements for linking up the British Emiiire with a chain of wireless stations. There cannot be any justification for askijig the cable companies to further dejjreciate the large investments in their secui-ities, constant!}' menaced by the com- petition of wireless telegraphy, particularly when the latter is supported by the Government, by making unwarranted reductions in rates foi' the benefit of a few interests or for sentimental reasons. The public requiring a cheap service may make use of wireless communication; those requiring a first-class service rendered by means of large investments and high cost of maintenance are willing to pay the present rates, which are only commensurate with the quality of service rendered. We have endeavoured to demonstrate to you that the demands of the Press for lower Press rates are absolutely unreasonable; that the plain citizen dcres not, and will not, use the cable to any extent at any rates ; that the ct)mmercial classes know that they are getting a low rate for the best of service ; that good service can be continued only by fostering present sharp competition, and not by breaking it down by a Government cable or low rates ; that a Government cable mean.s twi) cables for insurance and means a repairing ship, loss to the Governments, disaster to the cable comjianies, and no benefit to anyone except tt) the Press, and not even to them in the long nin ; and that the demand for fiu'ther rediK'tions at present is confiscatory and destructive, and one that we cannot entertain. I am, &c., GEO. G. WARD, Vice-President and General Mangaer, The Commercial Cable Company. The Secretary, Dominions Royal Commission. London. (b) Letter from the British Imperial Council of Commerce enclosing a BCemorandum, on Telegraphic Communication. The British Imperial Council of Commerce, Oxford Court, Cannon Street, London, E.C.. Dear Sir, 15th November 191;!. Referring to previous correspondence re the additional matter on the subject of telegraphic com- munii-ation, which was promised by Mr. Charles Charleton when he gave evidence before the Commission on 30th October 1912.* on behalf of my Co\incil, I now enclose a memorandum covering the main reasons which, so far as I can judge. influen(;ed the Congress in passing the resolution in questi<jn. I am not in a position to prepare a complete scheme, but hope the memorandum may be of use to the Commission in pursuing their iiKpiiries into the subject, which I observe has already been dealt with by various witnesses. 1 am, &c., CHARLES E. MUSGRAVE. The Secretary. Secretary. D(.)minious Royal Commission, Scotland House, Embankment, S.W. i'p. 84-89 of [Cd. Gal 7], E 2us:-iu Enclosure. Telegraphic Communication. Memorandum submitted to the Dominions Royal Commission in support of the resolution passed by the Eighth Congress of Chambers of Commerce of the British Empire. The practical advantages which would follow the establishment of an All-Red Mail Ro\ite coincide, to a very appreciable degree, with those which are antici- jjated from the completion of All-British cable com- munication, namely, a chain connecting up all parts of the Empire, no portion of which timches foreign territory. In so far as the latter directly affects the Press, and, through the Press, has a direct and daily influence upon the people, it may. perhaps, be recog- nised as of the fii'st importance. Sundry propositions have been put forward. Some of these advocate State-owned or State-controlled cal>les linking uji the whole Empire, whilst others limit their demands to the cables being British-(jwned or controlled. The argument in favour of finishing the work commenced when the Pacific cable was laid N ys DOMIXIOXS nOYAL COilillSSlON : I'APICUS LAID BEFOUE THE COMMISSION : was considerably ;^t leogtlieued when the last Atlantic cable passed out of British hands. This event was important in that Imperial communication with Canada ceased to be possible without the intervention of foreign companies. The fii-st proposition would appear to possess the greater possibilities and to synchronise more with modern ideas of electric communication. The initial opei-ation, and, without doubt, tliat presenting the most serious difficulties, was the construction of the Pacific cable, now an accomplished fact ; the next step to be taken is to lay an All-British Atlantic I'ahle with connections across CJanada which do not necessitate the line traversins^ the State of Maine (U.S.A.). Subsidiai'y to this Comes a modification of the existing arrange- ment by which the trans-Cauada poilion is in the hands of a private i-ompany. In this connection it has been suggested that the line should prefeiiilily be farther from the United States border or it would he easily cut in time of war. The point has importance, though it must be remembered that repairs could be effected also.with much greater speed than in the case of a cable. It would then be necessary to link up Gibraltai'-Bathurst, Bathui-st-Barbados (or Jamaica) and Cocos Island-Ceylon ; and, this accomplislied, the pi-incipal portions of the British Empire could maintain communications without employing foreign cables and without the messages passing over foreign territory. First in importance conies the consti-uction of an Atlantic cable. Private enterprise will probably not provide it, and the financial respcjiisiljility must be jointly undertaken by Governments, as with the Pacific cable, in equitaljle proportions. It has been estimated — and the Postmaster-General has accepted that estimate as substantially connect — that an Atlantic cable would cost, at the outside, ot)0,()(JO/. The British Post Office authorities consider, however, that it would be neees.saiy to lay two cables to ensui-e an uninter- nipted service. It is a debatable point, and, in examining it, the existenceof the other Atlantic cables must not be overlooked, coupled with the advance in the science of cable manufacture, cable laying and repairing, &c. Further than this, the case of the Pacific cable is not a complete parallel ; a dujilicate cal)le, if twii cables were ordered at the same time, would probal)ly cost relatively less than a single line. The expert consulted by the Canadian Postmaster estimated a surplus, at the end of the first year's work, of 20,000/. to 30,000/., but with this Mr. Samuel dis- agrees. The result, however, olniously dejiends uixin the rates charged, and one effect of the laying of the cable would be, it is contended, that this country could then have a more effective control of rates. According to the statement of Sir John Barran. M.P., to the Associated Chambers of Commerce of the United Kingdom, there is no reason to believe that the present two cable groups (both American) will ever combine, l)ut this is by no means certain. That the Post Office, through the landing licences, controls rates, is also a statement that needs definite qualification ; it is true rates may not be raised, but any request for reduction would be adjudicated ujjon by the Railway and Canal Commission. This body could not, of course, fix rates which might be unremuuerative to the companies concerned, whereas commercial opinion favours the All British cable for Imjierial reasons even if worked with- out profit. There is no reason to suppose that the All British cable would not obtain in jirocess of time its full share of traffic. It is true that the Pacific cable shows an annual loss, but it is also true that the loss is annually decreasing in spite of the fact that, owing directly to the existence of the Pacific cable, rates from Australia have actually descended from it.s. 4(1. to 3s. a W(jrd — and the private companies interested still pay a substantial dividend. This circumstance, in- deed, provides an irrefutable argument in favour of an All-British Atlantic cable. Surely it must be accepted as a general principle that the lower the rates the more general and popular is the use to which the cable is put. The existenceof a State-owned Atlantic cable would give to this country a much greater control over rates. The Post Office authorities further insist that as the existing 13 cables stait from, and laud in, British territory they are as completely under om- coaii'ol as if they were British-owned. To this, however, exception has Ijeen taken. It may be pointed out that of almost equal importance with the control of a cable during war is the control during a longer or shorter period i^i-evious to the actual outbreak of hostilities. In 1912, the President of the British Joui-nalists' Association was reported to have said that "• Anyone '• who had spent any time in Canada realised the ■' unfortunate influence of the bulk of the news gfjing " via New' York, Chicago, and ^V'ashington. He ■ hoped before long there might be direct communi- ■" cation between London and the self-governing •• Colonies." Direct commmiication affords a guaran- tee that in processof transmission this news would not be intercepted or altered in a foieigu country. The Right Hon. Sir Albert Spicer, Bart., MA'., at the Seventh Congress of Chambers of Commerce of the British Empire, at Sydney, in 1HU9, summed up the advantages of cheaper cable communication within the Empire. It would, he said, stimulate inter- Imperial commerce, facilitate social intercourse, :uid, through the Press, lead to a better dissemination of news and thus to a better understanding of Imperial problems. The full benefits made possible by the Pacific cable cannot be realised until such time as the entire British line is completed and the Pacific cable is iKj longer dependent upon American companies for a large portion of the distance between Australia and the United Kingdom. The Atlantic section Ls the most important, and the reasons for its constructicm by the State are much stronger than those which can be urged in favour of the furthei' suggestions which have been put foiward. The outlay which would lie required to nationalise, also, cables connecting up India and South Afi-ica would be formidable, especially' in the case of the latter. But State intervention of some kind appears to be essential, for none of the three additional cables pi'oposed is likely to be put in hand liy private enter- prise unaided. The Govei'nments of the Empire, jointly or severally, must either subsidise, guarantee, or own the extra lines which it is proposed should be constructed. As already .stated, lines comiecting Gibi'altar ami Bathurst (West Africa), the latter witii the West Indies, and Cocos Island with Ceylon need to be con.structed (in addition to the Atlantic cable) in order to provide a general inter-Imperial State sy.stem of cable communication. The West Indies-West Africa cable has been advocated as increasing the efficiency of the whole inler-Imperial system. The consolidation of the Empire, which, happily, is proceeding aixu-e, is i-apidly giving to the cable system the characteristics of an inland telegraph system. Who would presume to-day to suggest that the tele- graph system of Great Britain could be other than State-owned 'f Certainly it shows a substantial loss annually, but. as in the case of the Pacific cable, the benefits which iiidii'ectly result should outweigh any immediate monetary loss. What commercial people are asking for now is electric commiuiication throughout the Empii'e on precisely the same principle as it now exists in each separate State of the Empire. For strategic and commercial reasons, inter-Imperial telegraph couimunication must not be looked at primarily from the financial aspect, even though the reverse might be true of inland telegraph systems. The whole scheme outlined depends fundamentally upon the Atlantic line. We must be in a position to get into timch telegraphically with Canada and Australia (it may be even with South Africa and India) without the possiliility, as has been suggested, of American eavesdi'oppiug or censorshiij. The purchase of the American telegraph system by the United States Government has ah-eady been proposed at freijuent intervals ; ([uite recently (October 1913) it has been announced — and not officially denied — that the present administration in the U.S.A. is contemplating legis- lation which will ultimately involve Govei-nment ownership of the telegraph and telephone lines of the country, and sooner or later this may take place. The attitude of the home postal authorities on this matter may possibly be accounted for by the uncertain position of wireless telegraphy. Contracts were some time since provisionaUy entered into with the Marconi Company for a number of statioiiB throughout the OVEUSKA COMMIIMCM [ONS : |[ARROU[;s. 00 British Empire. That it would be a poor economy to expend consideral.le sums of money in laying further cables when the same might, owing to the advance in wireless, very shortly l)e " scrapped," must be conceded. On the other hand, the balance of unprejudiced expert opinion seems to be very decidedly against the pro- baliility of this happening ; the technical difficulties connected with the transmission of messages Ijy wireless make it very problematical whether in speed of trans- mission and in other directions wireless will suj>ei-sede the submarine cable for many years to come. And, in addition, other complications have to be overcome, such as the matter of secrecy, highly essential from a naval and military point of view, and, indeed, from that of the general public. Time alone can show what will be the development of wireless telegraphy ; in the interim, the Empire cannot afford to wait on possibilities — even probabilities — but must make the most efficient use of the apparatus which, at the moment, best answers the purpose. By order, CHARLES E. MUSGRAVE, 15.11.13. Secretary. B. — Harbours. Memorandum by the Rt. Hon. Lord Pirrie, K.P., on Bevelopment of Harbours from the point of view of Shipowners and Shipbuilders. As the Committee is already ac(juainted witli the evidence I gave to the Select Committee on Steamship Subsidies m 1902* as to the desirability of deep approaches to the chief harbours of the Empire, and with the paper read before the Engineering Conference of 1907 on Harbour and Dock Requirements as affected by the Development of Shipping, it will perhaps be almost sufficient if J say that I still adhere entirely to the views then expressed, though, of com-se, some developments and improvements have taken place since the dates in question. For example, the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board have formed a revetment on Taylor's Bank, al.>out 2^ miles long, with a view to I'etaining deep water at an awkward point in the channel of the Mersey, apparently with success ; and the Port Authority in Loudon have had presented to them a most interesting report by their Chief Engineer putting forward an admirable scheme of development for that great poi-t ; the work at which, I am sorry to see, is only to be taken piecemeal, and which, at the present rate of progress, I fear will be quite inadequate by the time it is completed. The entrance to Port Philip at Melbourne is steadily, if slowly, being deepened, but with regard to two important trade centres, viz., the St. Lawrence and the River Plate, there seems little progress to recoi'd. The Commission will quite understand that a condition of affairs which is fairly adequate to-day may be quite inadequate (probably will I^e largely inadequate) in ten years' time. With regard to the specific pouits under which the Commission desire to have a classified statement of opinion from me, I have much pleasure in giving the following answers : — cheaply obtained in a vessel of deep di"aught, especially in vessels making long ocean voyages. From this point of view the draught should not be less than about J^th of the length, and may with advantage be slightly more. Question (c). — What developments are likely iti. the size mid draiujht of ocean-going vessels, particularly on long ocean routes such us those to Australia and New Zealand ? Answer.— The developments whicli will take place in the size and draught of ocean-going vessels are limited entu'ely by the facilities which can be obtained and the draught of water which prevails in the harbours at the various ports of caU and terminal ports. This applies to all ocean-going vessels, and I may point out that, with the increased draught now becoming available at Melbourne, my firm have recently built by far the largest vessel yet put into the Australian trade, her load draught being greater than can he satisfactorily utilised at the port which governs the departure draught viz., Melbourne, in anticipation of the development of that port being continued. Provided that the draughts of water and harbour facilities available at the different Australian ports will permit of a steady increase in the size of vessels, I do not think we would be justified in setting any limit which could be put forward for vessels in such a trade. The developments, as I have implied aI)ove, will be entirely governed by the harbour facilities provided, and the Commission may feel assured that shipowners, in order to take the maximum advantage of the port facilities provided, will do their best to ensure that the size of the largest and newest vessels is always such as will take advantage of any development of whicli there is a reasonable prospect being made. Draught of Vessels. Question (a). — Generally speaking, what is the relation hetvjeeu the size of a vessel a.iid its economic capacity as a freight carrier ? Is it true to say that cost of con- veyance' p>er ton mile diminishes as the draught is increased ? Ansicer. — The relation Ijetvveen the size of a vessel and its economic capacity as a freight carrier can hardly he stated in general terms, but it is probably ti-ue as a first approximation that the cost of carriage per ton mile is reduced in the direct ratio in which the draught of vessel is increased, the speed being the same. This reduction docs not, however, show very distinctly, owing to a general tendency to increasing speed in freight carriers. Question (b). — Generally speaking, does the economic speed of a vessel increase ivilh the increased size and draught, and, if so, to what extent'^ In any case, is a higher speed more cheaply attained in a vessel of deep draught ? Ansrver. — There is no question whatever that the economical speed of a vessel increases with increased size and draught, and the gain is greater the more severe the draught restrictions are in any given trade. Also there is no question that a higher speed can be more ■See p. 1 13 o£ H.,C. 385 of 1902. Sarbours. Question (a). — Wlmt effect is the present deepening ol the Suez Canal and the capacity of the Panama, Canal likely to have on the world's harbours, and, what is now the desirable depth for a first-class harbour, in view of probable developments ? Ansvier. — The effect of the deepening of the Suez Canal and of the capacity of the Panama Canal, Ijy providing for the passage of lai-ger vessels through those two important waterways than at present engaged on the routes involved, will, of course, by encouraging shipowners to build vessels up to the maximum dimensions which they will pass, increase tlu! demand on the part <if shipping for an im-roased available depth in the principal harlioiu-s of the world. There is no doubt in my mind that the minimum working depth now desirable for a first-class harbour is at least 10 feet, and, in view of the time which it takes to get harbour authi.irities in motion and lo obtain i-esults from them, I think the minimum (le2)th which harbour engineers, or any i-eport on harbour facilities, sht)uld ut>w recommend is at least i'\ feet, as by the time that anything like this depth obtains in many harbours, I am sure there will be a demand for it from the shipping using the ports. Question (b). — Within what limits may if be said that the value of a harbour increases as the cube of its depth H N 2 100 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — P.\I'i:i!S LAIP l!EKni;E THE rojIMlSSION Answer. — As the length, breadth, and depth of modern vessels are increasiui; somewhat more rapidly than the draught, the size of the vessel and the amount i>f work she could do (which is roughh' measured by the product of the length, breadth and depth), will increase more rapidly than the cube of the draught. For a harboui', therefore, which is on the shallow side, any increase in its depth must be reckoned as adding to its vahie considerably more than iu pro- portion to the cube of the depth, and the more severe the restrictions on the trade of the present available draught, the greater in proportion is the gain. Question (c). — With a Jux^d amount to spend, in vjhat direction is hnrbonr improvement most urgent — increase of depth and improvement of accommodation, or increase of derricks, &c. on wJiarves? Ansicer. — If a fixed amount is to be spent on hai'bour improvements, it is a local question varying iu different harbours as to whether increase iu depth or improvement of accommodation for handling pas- sengers and cargo is mostly required, but as it is usually quite feasible to obtain increased local facilities for the handling of passengers and cargo. pro\ idcl the ships can get up to the wharves or docks, it is, as :i general rule, more urgent in the tii-st place to increase the depth of the harbour than to provide the detailed facilities. It is no use providing the facilities unless the depth is available, e.;/.. there is one important port in which a large graving dock has been Ijuilt. which has a greater depth of water on the sill than is avail- able in the apjjroach channel, and, consequently, the size of the vessel which can use the <lock is limited by the channel and not by the size of the dock itself. Of course, in some harbours which are already compara- tively deep for the trades, it would be more desirable to improve the facilities than to further increase the depth, but such harbours are the exception and not the rule. I trust I have made my views clear to the Com- mission on the points on which they desired them, but if they are not, or if I can give them any further information, I shall be very pleased to do so. PIRRIE, December, 191o. (See also Memorandum by Professor Sir John Biles, especially Question 4 " Speed," on p. 92,) 1. C— Freight Rates. Correspondence with the New Zealand Shipping Co.. Ittd., and the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., Ltd. Royal Commission to the New Zealand Shipping Co.. Ltd.. li>th September litis - - - p. Idd New Zealand Shipping Co. to Royal Commission. 2.5th September 1913 - - - - - P- I'"* Royal Commission to the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., Ltd.. lOth September 1913 - - - P- llJt) The Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co. to the Royal Commission. 25th September 1913 - - - p. 101 1. We have read these documents, and not* that your Commission proposes shortly to publish them, together with a report on the question of freight discrimuiation in favour of foreign goods. This report we shall not fail to give due attention to, when issued. We thank you for your eourtesy in giving us an opportunity of controverting the statements made by .witnesses in New Zealand, and of tendering evidence on the subject, but we do not think that any good pui-pose would be served by our doing so. We ai-e. &c. C. J. COWAN, E. J. Harding, Esq., Joint Manager. Dominions Royal Commission. Dominions Royal Commission. Sib, 19th September 1913. I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission to refer to your letter of the 10th December 1912,* on the subject of the freights charged on certain classes of goods shipped to New Zealand from the United Kingdom and from Continental ports. The Chairman desires me to say that the e^'ideuce brought before the Commission shows that the company is mistaken m thmking that the question of freight disci-imination in favour of foreign goods has been investigated or settled to the satisfaction of all concerned. On the contrary, grave dissatisfaction was expressed by witnesses before the Commission in New Zealand at the present state of affairs. Complaint was made' that the practice of charging lower freights on foreign goods is detrimental to British trade, and has in fact the effect of nullifying to a considerable extent the pi-eference accorded by New Zealand to British goods. I am to enclose, for the company's information, a copy of the e\'idence and correspondencef on the suliject which the Commission proposes shortly to publish. Before reporting on the question, the Commission thinks it proper to bring these facts to the company's notice, so as to afford them an opportunity of con- troverting the statements made by witnesses iu New Zealand, and. if they so desire, of tendeiing evidence with regard to the question. I am to add that, as will lie seen from the jirint enclosed, after receiving evidence in New Zealand, the Commission communicated with the company's office at Christchm-ch. asking for informatiijn as to the facts, but was informed that all aiTangements in connection with freights on cargo from the United Kingdom and the Continent were in the hands of the London office. 1 am. .ic. The General Manager E. J. HARDING. New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd. SlK, 2. The New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd., 138, Leadenhall Street, London, E.G., SlE, 25th September, 1913. We have received yom- letter of the 19th instant, enclosing copy of the evidence taken before your Conunission in New Zealand. 3. Dominions Roval Commission. 19th September 1913. 1 Hill directed by the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission to refer to your letter of the nth December 1912.* as to the freight charged cm certain classes of goods shipped to New Zealand from the United Kingdom and the continent of Europe. The Chairman understands that jiaraLrraph 2 of your letter refers to the report of the Royal Com- mission on Shijipiug Rings which was issued in 1909. He desires ti> say that it is shown fi-om the evidence given before the Dominions Royal Commission by witnesses in New Zealand that publii' opinion in the Dominion is not satisfied with the present jvisition of aft'aii's. On the contrary, grave coniijlaint was made that, on several classes of goods, lower freight is still charged from foreign than from Britisli ports, and it was stated that the practice is a handicaji to British ti-ade and has, in fact, the effect of nullifying the in- tentions of the New Zealand Legislature in gi\ ing a preference on British goods. I am to enclose, for the company's information, a copy of the evidence and correspondencet on the subject which the Commission proposes shortly to publish. The Chairman desires, before the Dominions Royal Commission reports on the question, to bring these facts to the Company's notice, and to give them an opportunity of controverting the statements made by the witnesses in New Zealand. • See p. 118 of [Cd, 7170], T Hp. 10.-)-121 of [Cd. 717U]. EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND OEGANISATION. 101 The Commission will also be ^jrepared, should the company so desire, to hear evidence on the matter from any i-epresentative nominated for the purpose. I am, &c. The General Manager, E. J. HARDING. Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company, Ltd. The Shaw, Savill. and Albion Co., Ltd., 34-, Leadenhall Street, London, E.G., SiK, 2.Jth September 1913. We beg to acknowledge receipt of youi' letter of I'Jth instant in which, while refen-ing to our com- munication of (>th December IHI'J,* you call attenti(m to certain evidence given by witnesses in New Zealand regarding alleged diifereuces in freight rates from foi"eign as compared with British jjorts. See \>. lis of [CVl. 7170], We have to thank you for yom- coui-tesy in enclosing copy oi the evidence and coiTespondence in question, and for the opportunity given us to contro- vert the statements made to the Commissioners. We, however, do not see that we can be of any assistance in this mattei', and though we cannot reconcile the figures we think it will be better to eave the Commissioners t-o draw their own conclusions from the evidence that has been placed before them. We would Mke to state, however, that the rates of freight charged by us for the conveyance of foreign goods are in no case fixed by us but in every instance are exactly the same as are charged by tlie local foreign shipowner for the conveyance of the same goods by his steamer to the same destination. It is he, not we, who tixes the rate. We are. &c. The Secretary. J. A. POTTER, Dominions Royal Commission. General Manager. III.— EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. Letter from the Royal Colonial Institute, with a Supplementary Memorandum by the Empire Trade and Industry Committee on their proposal for the creation of an Empire Development Board and Fund. Royal Colonial Institute. NorthumVjerland Avenue. London, W.C., Dear Sib, 22nd Jtdy 1913. I AM directed by the Chairman of the Empire Trade and Industry Committee of this Institute to forward to you, with reference to yom- letter of the 31st January last.* a supplementary memorandum which has been prepared by the Committee on the subject of the Deficiencies in Existing Steamship Services, kc. which might l>e remedied by an Empire development fund. It will be noted in the body of the niemoi-andum that the C'.>mmittee have lieen xinable to reach the question of charges on emigrants. Yours. &c.. WM. CHAMBERLAIN. W. J. Glenny. Es(|.. for Secretary. Assistant Secretary, Dominions Royal Commission. Enclosure. Supplementary Memorandum by the Empire Trade and Industry Committee of the Royal Colonial Institute on their proposal for the creation of an Empire Development Board and Fund, prepared in response to the request of the Dominions Royal Commission. On 31st October 1912 representatives of the above Committee appeared before the Royal Commission and j'ave evidence in support of the Committee's proposal fed. 6.517. pp. 93-1 1 »8). In the course of the pro- ceedings it was suggested and agreed that the Committee -should prepare a further memorandum indicating more precisely some of the existing deficiencies in the Empire's maritime communications (i.e. shipping and telegraph services) which might be remedied throuiili the institution of such a Board and Euud (thill. 107). On 31st .lanuary 1913 a letter was addressed by the Royal Commission to the Committee suggesting that in the supplementary memorandum particular attention should be paid to (i) freight conditions; (ii) charges on emigrants; (iii) speed of steamship services and the cost of accelerating them. On 28th June 1913 a further letter was addressed to the Committee on behalf of the Royal Commission requesting that the supplementary memorandum should be sent in as early as possible, so that it might be circulated for consideration by the members of the Commission in ample time before arrangements were finally made for heai-ing fiu'ther evidence in this country in the autaimn. * Noi priiitcil. The Committee have endeavoured to deal with the three subjects specifically suggested by the Conimission, and have added a note on a fourth subject, viz., existing deficiencies in telegi-aphic communications. (il Freight Conuitions. Part I.— The Need and Method of Public Control over Freight Rates. In 1906 the operations of shijjping rings or confer- ences as affecting freight conditions were found to have created dissatisfaction among mercantile houses and large consumers overseas, and manufactui-ers at home. Accoi-dingly the British Government apj)ointed a Royal Commission, including rejjresentatives of some of the Dominions, to inquire into the whole subject. In 1909 this Commission issued Majority and Minority Reports (Cd. 4668). The signatures to the two report* were as follows : — Majority : Arthur (Johen (Chairman), Inverolyde, C. N. Lawi-ence. Hugh Bell. W. Thomas Lewis. A. E. Bateman. E. C. K. Gonner. F. Maddison, Wm. H. Mitchell. Owen Philipps, Oswald Sanderson. Minority : D. M. Barbour. .John Macdonell, R. Muir- head Collins, Henry Birchenough, John Bari-y A feature common to both reports is that the question of defei-red rebates, which was specifically mentioned in the terms of reference, is discussed in relation to the larger ((uestion of monopoly in the control of shipping, which was not specificiilly men- tiimed. It seemed to be taken for granted that whatever tended to create a monopoly was to that extent dangerous to the public int(.'rest. Accordingly, lioth the majority and the minority put foi-war^l suggestions for bringing the conferences under some measure of control through the British Board of Ti-ade. We now wisli to point out that (1) the t<>ndency towards monopoly in the ownership and control of sliipping has become accentuated since 1909; (2) that the proposals then made for regulating shipping services in the imblie interest have not succeeded; and (3) that the further pi-ogress of the tendency towards monopoly has been accompanied by some of tlie disadvantages in regard to freight conditions which were recognised or apprehended in btith the Majority and Minority Reports of 1909. WHien we have dealt with the above three points, we shall then proceed to show how, in our opinion, an effectual safeguanl might be found in the proi^oseil Empire Board and Fimd. Having thus dealt with freight (-onditiims generally we shall call attention to an existing deficiency in regard to the Suez Canal, and to potential difficulties in respect of the Panama Canal, both of which might lie met through the operation of the scheme we propose. Witli V'.'gard to the question of monoj.oly in sliiiiping. we desire to prefa<'e our remarks iiy ■■mpha- sising the fact that we are not actuated by any \{\z DOMINIONS KOYAI, COMMISSION 1 — PAri'.liS LAID nEFOKK THE rOMMlRSKiN : hoatility to shipping coaferences or even to monopoly as, such. We regard the modern tendency to monopoly a-R economic and salutary so long as public supervision keeps pace with its growth. Moreover, we think that the mergers of British shipping companies, to wliicli we are about to call attention, have been a prudent devolopiuent in view of the growing financial strength of foreign shipping companies, just as the adt)ption of tlie Dreadnought t_ype of battlesliip bj- Britain com- pelled foreign Powers to follow suit. In commerce combination induces counter (combination. But the idtimate tendency always is for the rival combinations U) work in unison, as illustrated by the shipping conferences which include foreign lines. When this takes place on an iiiternatidual scale national interests are liable to suffer, unless vigilantly protected by the State. But while recognising the necessity of public supoi-visiou we share the feeling of national pride that British sliipping companies are still leading the world in till' niodeni development of what has always lieen a vital British industry. (1) Growth of TeiuleiHij to Moiioi>olij in S)iippiii(j. In 190(!, when the Royal Commission was appointed, tlie amylgamation of shipping companies into large combines under single management had already begun. Public attention had been calleil to it liy the spec- tacular launching in 190:2 of the Intel-national Mercantile Marine Company of New Jersey, some <_>f the consti- tuents of which were themselves the outcome of previous amalgamations. In Appendix A. attaclied Iiereto, particulars are given of some of the more important mergers, both British and foreign, up to tlie present time, in order to illustrate the continued growth of tliis tendency. We may here note that, whereas in the case of the British mergers no effective public control has been established, in some of the foreign instances sucli control is alveadj' est;iblished. For example, in the United States there is the Sherman Act ; though the principle of that measure, being directed against monopoly as such, is not one which we ourselves regard witli favour. Australia and Canada also have either adopted or had imder consideration legislation for controlling the operati(ms of nionopohes as affecting public interests. In Germany the system of through bookings from the inland point to another point overseas enables the Government, as owner and manager of the railways, to exercise control over ocean freight rates, 111 ( rermauy, again, the Government generally allows a lower railway rate on goods for export than on goods for homo consumption. Presumably the Government would not do this were it not assured that the sliipping company would not take advantage of these concessions to increase the freight rates. In this way it may be said that the German Government controls freight rates. AVe understand that in some coiuitries the tt>rms of bills of lading, and of through bills from point to point, are on a uniform biisis. att'ording some protec- tion to traders against certain methods of indirect discrimination. (•1) Failure of 1909 rroposids of Control . The remedial proposals of the majority were briefly; (I) that merchants in the various countries affected should form themselves into associations, the areas of associatiim being not less than the whole of the ports served by conference lines in any country ; such associations to be entitled to "recognition" by the Board of Trade when deemed by that body to he properly representative. These assoi'iations to meet the conferences with a view to friendly adjustment of disputes as they arose. In the event of failure to settle any point of dispute the Board of Ti-ade to .ippoint a conciliator on the applicati<m of either party, nr an arbitrator on the application of both parties. Further, in cases where the Board of Trade decided that •• important National or Imperial interests were affected '" it cimld appoint its own inquirer, whose report it w(mld have di.scretion to lay befcn-e Parlia- ment, and in considering whether to do so it should " have regard to any representation made by any Colonial Government interested," They further recom- mended that all conferences should be required to deposit with the Board of Trade copies of (a) all iuter-companv agreements; {b) all rebate circulars; (c) all agreements with " recognised " associations of merchants ; (d) all tariff's of rates and classificationg ; whitdi. further, should be published. The minority, desiring to strengthen the above proposals of control, recommended as amendments : ((() that the Board of Trade should have discretion to recognise any representative association of merchants, \vithout the condition that the association should cover the whole of a conference area ; (()) that the Board of Trade should " be free to direct an empiiry, with " full jiowers as to bringing evidence and the produc- ■ tioii of di>cuineiits when it appears that important • public interests (including those of consumers and ■• producers) are affected by the action of Shipping '• Ct>iiferences ; or upon the representati(.)ii of Colonial " Governments that such an entpiiry is expedient." In this connection the minority remark: "We very " strongly rely upon the effect of full publicity, which " has not hitherto existed ' ; (c) that the Board of Trade report should in all cases be laid promptly before Parliament, but with care taken not to divulge iiifVirmation useful to foreign competitors ; [d) that an annual return ou the operations of shipping con- ferences should be presented to Parliament. The following ([uestions and answers in the House of Commons indicate the result to date (iJHth June, i9lo) of the above proposals : — Major Akcher-Shee. M.P., D.S.O. : Q.—{\) To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state in what cases have the services of the Board of Trade been reciuisitioiied for the settlement of disputes as contemplated by the Royal Commission on Shipping Rings. Rt. Hon. S. Buxton, M.P.. President of the Board of Trade : A. — (1) Although isolated complaints have been made to the Board of Trade as to rates charged liy Sliippiiig Conference Lines, no requisition has been made for the ser\ices of the "Board in the settle- ment of anj' dispute of a general character between merchants and Conference Lines. Q.—{2) To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what associaticnis of merchants have been registered to dale, in accordance with the recom- mendation of the Report of the Royal Commission on Shipping Rings, made in 1909. A. — (2) No associatiims of merchants have been registered by the Board of Trade for the purposes contemplated by the Royal Commission on Shijiping Rings. Coiitiiuied I)igMiti!<fuetioii. — Clearly, therefore, the remedial proposals of 19(19 have failed of ett'ect. Nor can it be maintained that the failure has l)eeu due to a happy alisence of grievance iu respect of freight conditions. Subsequently to 1909. the position in South Africa liecame so acute that the Union Govern- ment Ijrought the (piestion of shipping rings to the attention of the Imperial C(mfereiice in 1911 (Cd. 5745, p. o7'2 et seq.). On this occasion. Sir D. de Villiers Graaff, speaking for the Union Government, argued forcibly that the effect of the monopoly had lieen to restrict the develojunent of South Africa and to hamper the growth of trade within the Empire. Since then there have lieen the new Post Office Act, the new mail cimtract, and the new South African Freiglit Agreement, but sufficient time has rot 3'et elapsed for the ultimate effcet of these new arrangenieuts to 1)0 judged. It may here be noted that in the South African Agreement there is a clause which provides that disputes between the S^>uth African Merchants Com- mittee and the steamship lines, shall, in the last resort, " be submitted to arbitration. " While the need of an arbitral authority is thus recognised, no such authority at presents e.vists. Further, it is evident that neither the producer nor the consumer, who are the parties ultimately affected, is to be considered at all in these arrangements. EMPIRE BEVELOP.MKXr AND ORGANISATION'. ]03 In Onnada, likewise, dissatisfaction lias been ex- pressed with regard to freight conditions on the Atlantic, the inward traffic lieing controlled by the West-bonnd Conference. In Appendix B we give extracts from recent Canadian and British papers illustrating this dissatis- faction, and also extracts from the report of H.M. Trade Commissioner for Canada. Mr. A. Hamilton Wickes. and his predecessor. Mr. Richard Gi-igg ; a vefei-ence to this subject also occurs in tlie last I'epoi't of H.M. Trade Commissioner for New Zealand, in Appendix D. Causes of Failure. — The weakness of the liM)<t pro- posals appears to have lain in the following circum- stances : — (a) The merchants, on whose initiative the remedy was to depend, are not the people who are ultimately or principally injured by excessive freight rates or other defects in tlie trans- poit .sei'vices. Generally speaking, the merchant's interest is identical with that of the sliijiowner. to whom it is a matter of comparative iudiifereiice whethei' producers and <'onsumers are making a satisfactory profit or not, so long as production and consumption are not palpably retarded on the whole. It should lie borne in mind that under our present systeiii of trade the merchant can generally buy fon^ign goods just as easily as Bi-itish goods if the freight oil the fcjrmer is more favourable than on on the latter. It seems to lie essential that the remedial machinery should be such as may be set in motion, not only by shiii- <iwiiers or merchants, liut ei4.nally by the jiarties ultimately atfected. viz.. producers and consumers, instead of depending on action by any middle party. (h) 111 any case, there is always the great difficulty of combining any parties who are generally trade rivals into really (Comprehensive associations. (c) Overseas there may be some lack of confidence ill the efficacy of intei-veiition liy the British Board of Trade, a body which oversea.s may be felt to represent the interest of the United Kingdom only. ('^) Diaadvaiitaf/es apprehended from moiuipnhj in li)09 couUrine to tie realised. Of various dangers recognised by the Royal Commission in 1909, the most important to Empire development wer"- — {(() "Excessive"" or ■■unfair"' freight rates. (()) Preference to foreign trade. In this connectiim there was some difference of opinion as tvi whether the Conference principle of equal rates from British and Continental ]ioi'ts was not in itself a preference of that kind (Cd. 4.6(;;8. pp. 41, 111). (a) Excessive or Unfair Fi-eight Rates. "We desire to emphasise that our own standpoint is that of the Minority Report of 1909, in so far as tlie signatories (jf that report insist (p. 98) that producers and coiisuiners. rather than shipowners or merchants, are the parties specially and really interested in this matter. The purpose of our Committee is always Empire development, which depends fundamentally on the mutual satisfaction of producers overseas and consumers in Britain, ormcc versa. The interest of the producer is to obtain the highest price, and of the consumer to pay the lowest. An interest common to both is. therefore, that the price should n<it be reduced ut the (me end. or increased at the other end. by ahighi^r charge for transpoit than the lowest cost at which it is possible for that service to be efficiently rend(?red, due regard being had to the living wage of British seamen and to a fair return on capital necessary to the business. From our standpoint, therefore, freight rates must be adjudged "excessive," though not necessarily " unfair,"" whenever they appear to exceed this neces- .sary miniuium, because any such excess can only operate as a discouragement to productive industry, by limiting its profits, eitliei^ in Britain or in the Dominions or in lioth, having r(^gard to the existing conditions of world competition which govei'n prices. In Appendix C we exhibit a chart showing the' fluctuations in mean yearly freight i-ates since 19(12. being the year of the Morgan c(jnil)ine of Atlantic companies. The level lately reached was the highest for 20 years. The .shipping journal ■■ Faiipl.ay "" (20fh December 1912). from which we have borrowed the figures, points out the great variety of causes which are reflected in these fluctuations, and which make it impossible for us to ascertain with any exacti- tude to what extent the rapid nse in recent years is attnbutable to the eliminati(m of competition through the growth of mon(jpoly. But it should be borne in mind that the first (jbject of large combines is always the maintenance of freight rates at a high level. The same journal states, however, that ■•vessels '■ owing to their increased size and better despatch can ■■ now carry cargo at a much lowei- rate to leave a profit ■■ than vessels could do thirty years ago,'" That is to say, other things being e(pial the tendency of freight rates should be downwards rather than upwards. Ill the same way, other things being e(iiial. the effect of the recent mergers ought to l)e to reduce freight rates, owing to the saving in the expense of management and elimination of waste, &c., which constitute the economic, justification of mv:)iiopoly. But if these economies have been effected, it is not clear that the benefit has reache4 consumers and producers. In some cases, at least, the economic saving ajipears to have been m(jre or less counter- balanced by an inflation of capital in connection with the process of merger, increasing the amount of revenue. i.e., of earnings, necessary for paying interest or dividends. To effect a merger it has sometimes been necessary to buy out competitors on practically their own terms. The excess of capital rerjuired for this purpose has been obtainable by reason of the increased power of a large combine to carry out the avowed jjolicy of exacting the highest rates that the traffi(c will bear (Cd. 4t)(i8. p, 40) — a policy which is opposed to that of Empire development. If desired, we shall be able to furnish one or two striking examjiles of this inflation of cajiital due to mergers. The following extract from the •■ Financial News " of 9th July 1913 is of interest, as showing the latest p(>siti(m in regard to the tendency of freight rates and the finance of shipping companies. '• During the past few weeks the freight markets have not altered to any material extent. At present, rates are well maintained in most directions, with a general tendency towards slightly higher figiu'es. Owners have got through June much better than was at one time expected, and when July is over there should be a brisk iucpiiry for tonnage, as arrangements will then be in progress for moving the new crops. In this connection it may be mentioned that the cargo-boat companies are now transferring larger sums to depreciati(m and reserve tlian they have hitherto done, so that when the iiievitalile period of depression ensues they will be in a miudi better position to deal with circumstances which may then arise. The accounts of 29 oi these concerns that have been issued since January last show that, while profits have risen from 1.168.42.1)/. to 2.474.641/,. the amount set aside has increased from 604.956/. to 1.487.721/. and the average dividend from 6 ■ 1.1 to l.'>27 per cent."" (/)) Preference to Foreign Interests. By the established poli(cy of the shipping con- ferences an e(piality of rates is supposed to »be uiaintained fnmi United Kingdom and C'(mtinental ports respectively to overseas markets. There always has been a widespread feeling that this ecpiality is in itself an luidue discrimination against British trade, because the supremacy of this coiuitry in shipbuilding. &c., ought to enable her carrying trade to be c(mdiicted more cheaply than that of other countri(»s. But, without going further into that (piestion, we have to pi)int out that there continues to be cases in which the riiteb are lower from Continental than from British ports, to the manifest detrimeut of British trade. X 4: 104 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — PAPERS I.AlD REFORE THE roMMISSION We have also t<^i point out that even where the freight rates are nominally e<iual, (.'lass for class, a certain description of goods may be assigned to a cheaper class on the Continent than in Britain, so that the difference in the method of classitication sometimes acts as a preference to foreign goods. In Appendix D we give examples of these two forms of discrimination against foreign trade. [In this connection we would call special attention to Numbers 3, 4. •"> and 6 in Appendix D, which apparently indicate a tendency to counteract the opersition oi the British preference in Dominion tariiis by means of discrimiuatc->ry freight rates in favour of foreign goods. In one instance (Appendix D fi) we find British manufacturers apparently asking a Dominion Government to grant a tariff preference for the particular purpose of offsetting the foreigner's undue advantage in respect of freight rates.] (4) Tlie Remedy Proposed. We agree with the Royal Commission of 1909 that the conditions produced by the growth of the con- ference system are such as to render it desiraljle that those interested should have the opijortunity of appeal to some official body. The mere existence of this opportunity, even were it seldom exercised, would tend to act as a check upon the conferences, aud to give a confidence now lacking to shippers, manufacturers, and producers and consumers generally, who now feel that they are powerless to protect their own interests in the face of these modern coml)inations of shipowners. But the British Board of Trade, as we have pointed out, is not the right body for this purpose in the British Empire, because it is not inter-State. We submit that our proposed Empire Board would be in a stronger position than the British Board of Trade, because (u) it would be ojien to representatives of all the principal Governments in the Empire, instead of representing one Government only ; and {b) if entrusted. as we have suggested, with control of the mail contracts of the Empire, and having a certain fimd conditionally available for the improvement of shipping services generally, it would possess a leverage lacking to the British Board of Trade, and more weight would thus attach to any public reports it might make on matters in dispute between shipping companies and the jniblic. As compared with the proposals of 1909 our pro- posal has the further merit that (c) producers and consumers in any of the countries would have the opportunity ot moving their own Government, through the ordinary departmental channels, to bring their own view of any gi-ievance to the attention ot the board instead of depending on the initiative of merchants or others whose interests might not be identical i.requally cogent. We now suggest that it would suffice, for a beginning at least, if in connection with questions of freight conditions the pi-oposed l)oard had the same duties of inquiry and report as were recommended by the Minority in 1909 (see above, p. o), except that the reports and returns of the lx)ard should be laid before the Dominion Parliaments concerned as well as the British Parliament. Such a duty would fall within the scope of the functions we have already proposed that this Ixiard should exercise, and which included the following : — '■ (t!) To watch and report upon the interests of trade within the Empiri' as affected by maritime communication ; and in case of injuiious developments to take or recommend suitable action. " '■ (7) To report at the request of any participant Government upon any question concerning the operation from any standpoint of public interests, of any of the maritime services of the Empire, i.e., steamship services, whethei- mail or cargo, and telegiuph seiTices whether cable or wireless." (Cd. 6517, p. 97.) Relying, to begin with, upon the efficacy of publicity of the board's i-eports, we do not suggest that the board should be empowered to fix rates or otherwise dictate to the shipping companies. But we cannot concur with the opinion expressed by the majority in 19U9 ihat (!>. 83) •■the grant of such power could only •• be justified if th(! State were i)repared to grant •■ shipping conferences statut<iry monopolies or •■ guarantee their profits." In our view the need aud justification of State intervention consists in the circumstance of \irtual monopoly existing (whether statutory or not) such as induced the British Govern- ment to assume control over railway rates. Part II. — Canal Dues. (1) Siw'2 Canal. — So far we have considered the (juestion of freight conditions in relation only to the pioposed board as a tribunal of appeal in case of dispute between the public and the shipping companies, particularly with a view to meeting fhe dangers inherent in the tendency to monopoly. The other aspect of the proposed board is that of an inter-State liody charged with the administration of a certain fund for (primarily) the improvement of the maritime communicaticms of the Empire (Cd. t!517, p. 97. Nos. (1) to (.5)). We now desire to suggest that one object to which such a fund might be usefully applied would be the relief, under certain cimditions, of British shipping from the Suez Canal dues, and possibly, hereaftei-. the Panama Canal dues. The ca.se of the Suez Canal is excejitioiial, inasmuch as the British Government is a large shareholder in the canal company, and in that capacity draws a dividend at the rate of above oii per cent, on the pui'chase money. The amount thus received by the British Government last year was l,318,tJ85/, It has loug been felt that the tolls which produce these huge dividends are obviously excessive, and that in justice to those British subjects who tbrectly or indirectly pay these tolls the British Government ought to apply part of the dixidend to reduction or refund of the tolls on British shipping. This reform could be accom- plished by transferring to the Empire Board aud Fund whatever portion of the revenue from the canal shares the British Parliament might determine. The past histiiry of the question maybe summarised as follows : — At the Imperial Conference of 1907, it was strongly urged l)y Sir Joseph Ward, as Premier of New Zealand, that something shoxdd be done to remove or reduce the tolls on British shipping using the canal, in order that this shorter route might become available to some of the vessels, especially cargo steamers, which use the longer and more dangerous i-outes, via Cape Horn or the Cape of Gt>od Hope, for the sake of economy. He suggested State repayment of tolls, to which he said that New Zealand would willingly i-imtribnte. The idea was supported by Mr. Deakin. as Premier oH A\istralia. and was approved in principle by Mr. Asquith, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Llovd George, as President of the Board of Trade. The question continued to l)e m-ged on the attention of the British Government by the Australian Government . At the Imperial CJonference of 1911, a resolution was brought forward by the Australian Premier (Mr. Fisher), and was eventually passed in the following form :-- •• That this Conference is of opinion that the dues levied upon shipping for using the Suez Canal constitute a heavy charge and tend to retard the trade within "the Empire, and with other countries, and invites the Government of the fruited Kingdom to continue to use then' influence foi- the purpose of obtaining a substantial reducti<m of the present charges." (No. XX'\'I. of 1911.) In moving his resolution Jilr. Fisher mentioned that in the case of one large shipping company the amount paid in tolls for the year exceeded the amount paid in wages, and that in the case of the vessels pei-foriniug the mail contract the amount paid in tolls exceeded the mail sulisidy. In the course of the discussion it was pointed out, on behalf of the Foreign Office, that the British Govei-nment, although a large shareholder in the canal, had only about one-tenth of the representation on the board, and thus could not force substantial i-eductions as desired. The following table shows the progress of reduction in the rate of transit dues per ton up to the present time : — EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. 105 Rate per Ton in Francs. 1869 1874 1877 1879 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1893 1903 1906 1911 1912 1913 10 13 12.50 12 11.50 11 10.50 10 9.50 9 8.50 7.75 7.25 6.75 6.25 Oui' suggestion is that an allowance on account of toUs might be granted out of the Empii-e Fimd to British ships, the amount being based, not on tonnage, but on goods actually carried. We woidd limit the arrangement to specified classes of goods, bond fide the produce or manufactui-e of the Empire and destined bond fide for consumption within the Empire, and perishable food-stuffs in p;u-ticular. A further condition should be that the rates of freight on the specified classes of goods should be approved oy the Empire Development Board, and should not be increased without its sanction. In this way we feel that encoiu-agemeut might be afforded to the production of food in Australasia, e.g., the butter industry, which has to meet the severe competition of Danish producers as well as of m.argarine and such products in the British market. (2) Panama Canal. — It is not yet clear what will be the outcome of the present dispute with the United States regarding tolls on the Panama Canal. But in view of the possibility of subsidised foreign competition in the canying trade by this new route, we suggest that the Empire would be in a stronger position if there were brought into existence a board and fund of the kind we propose, which could organise counter- vailing measui'es in case of discrimination against British trade. (ii) Chaegks on Emigrants. The Committee report that in the time available they have been unable to reach the question of charges on emigrants. Any obsei-vations which they might desire to make on this subject would have to be submitted at a later date. (iii) Speed of Steamship Services and Cost or Acceleration. We take it as axiomatic that the interests of Empire development demand the speediest pi-acticable trans])ort of mails and passengers between the various countries of the Empire, and especially between the Dominions and Britain. From this standpoint there is no ocean mail service connecting Britain and the Dominions which ought not to be accelerated if an Empu-e Fund were available for such piu-poses. If, however, we confine om- attention to services which are palpably behind the felt needs of the present time, we would single out the following : — (1) Britain-Australasia, including Canada-Aus- tralasia. (2) West Indian services, including : — (a) Britain- West Indies. (6) West Indies inter se. (c) West Indies-Canada. (1) Britain-Australasia. It has long been felt that the existing interval of 34 days between Britain and New Zealand {via the foreign San Francisco route), and 30 days between London and Melbourne requires to be shortened. In relation to Empire development, the fact that the journey out and back takes practically 3 months impedes British investment in Australasian enterprises. The number of British capitalists visiting Canada with a view of taking part in the development of the country E 20S30 is much greater than the number visiting Australia or New Zealand, partly owing to the difference in the length of absence which is involved. From the political standpoint, again, the length of journey is an obstacle to the now accepted policy of frequent consultation between Ministers of the respective Governments. The recent developments of the naval policies of the Canadian and Australasian Dominions are such as to emphasise the need of a fast mail and passenger service on the Pacific Ocean, in order to facilitate co-operation between these Governments. Since the discussion of the All-Red project at the Imperial Conference in 1911, something has been done by the Canadian Government to improve (ho Atlantic sei-vice and, in conjunction with New Zealand, to improve the Pacific service. But in our opinion the actual present needs of the situation will not be satisfied until New Zealand is brought by this AU-Red route within three weeks of Britain as advocated by the Premier of New Zealand in 1911, with con-esponding reductions of the intervals between Australasia and Canada and between Canada and Britain. The time-table outlined by the Premier of New Zealand was as follows : — Liverpool to Halifax or Quebec about - - - - - 4 days. Halifax or Quebec to Vancouver - 4 days. Vancouver to Wellington or Auck- land . . - - Wellington to Sydney - 12 to 13 days 20 to 21 days - 3 days 23 to 24 days As to the probable cost, the confidential informa- tion obtained in the course of inquiries by a special Committee of the British Cabinet after the Conference can doul)tless be procured by the Royal Commission. Unofficial estimates placed the subsidy at various amounts up to 1,000,OOOL a year. Such a sum, if necessai-y, would not in our opinion be too much to pay for the commercial and political advantages of having New Zealand brought within 21 days of Britain and Australia (Sydney) within 24 days, with the proportinate reduction of time to and from the intermediate countries. (^ West Indian Services. For many years past there has been an increasing- tendency for the principal West Indian Colony, Jamaica, to look to the United States rather than the Empire for its economic development. The attraction of the United States as a great market for tropical products — formerly sugar, but nowadays principally fruit — has been stimulated by the enterjirise of American capitalists in developing the agricultm-al resoiu-ces of Jamaica, and by the yearly stream of American tourists. The most important attempt to check this tendency to rely on a foreign country has been the action of the Canadian Government in giving a preference to West Indian products (particularly sugar) which has now been made reciprocal, and establishing direct steam- ship communication with Canadian ports on the Atlantic. But Jamaica lias stood out of this arrange- ment for fear of what the United States might do — a most humiliating position for the Colony and the Empire. This Imperial policy of Canada has been impeded all along by the want of cohesion between the West Indian Colonies, which may be traced partly to the lack of rapid inter-communication. In poi'ticular, Jamaica is cut off from the Colonies to the so\ith by an interval of 9 or 10 days or more. The American export trade to the West Indian Colonies tends to displace the British export trade. It is therefore, desirable that all practicable measures should be taken to maintain and expand the Empire trade, and to facilitate personal intercourse between the West Indies and other parts of the Empire, especially Britain and Canada. o 106 DOMINION'S ROYAL COMMISSION : PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION For this purpose some of the steamship communi- cations re<iuiie to be accelerated, being plainly behind the times. (a) Britain-West Indies. The two main routes of dii-ect commvmication between Britain and the West Indies are fi-om South- ampton to Barbados and from Bristol to Jamaica. There are, however, various other senices from British ports. The Southampton-Barbados route is that of the historic mail service of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, which is on a fortnightly basis. But though this ser\-ice eventually reaches Jamaica the time occupied is so long (over three weeks) that, we understand, fhe mails are generally sent via the United States. From 1900 to 1911 a contract was held by the Imperial Direct West India sei-vice, which was estab- lished in 1900 as the result of negotiations between the late Su- Alfred Jones and Mr. Chamberlain, with the object of pro^-iding Jamaica with a direct fruit, passenger, and mail service. Mr. Chamberlain wished to open a market in Britain for Jamaican fiiiit hi order to render that Colony less dependent on the United States. This service was fortnightly, and performed the passage from Bristol to Kingston in 10 to 12 days, calling at Bermuda once a month. The contract lapsed in 1911, and the service was suspended, the Colony being unwilling to renew their share of the subsidy (which was 40,000Z. divided equally between the Imperial and Jamaican Governments), believing that the Imperial Government would not continue theirs. The reluctance of the Colony was also partly due to resentment at the private arrangements whereby the United Fruit Company of the United States of America had secvu-ed practical control of the loading, and partly to a feeling that the banana trade to Britain was now sufficiently well established to render a subsidy unnecessary. This latter belief was justified by the event, since a weekly service of about equal speed is now maintained by Elders and Fyties, Limited, a com- pany which is said to be mainly owned by the United Frnit Company of the United States of America. But as compared with the previous service, the present one seems to be inferior in the following respects, of Imperial importance : — (1) It is virtrally under foreign control. (2) The speed has ceased to be adequate for the carriage of mails, which now go by a foreign route owing to the more rapid improvement of American communications* (3) The lx>ats now carry fruit only, returning ■ practically empty, thus doing nothing directly to develop the British export ti-ade. (4) The monthly call at Bermuda ha^■ing been dropped, that British Colony is now isolated, being connected only i-i'l the United States of Ajn erica. The maU contract with the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company lapsed in 1905, after which the mails were canied on a poundage basis. It was renewed in 1911. after much dispute as to the amount of subsidy, which was finally fixed at 88,000Z. The speed from Britain to Barbados, which is still the first port of call, is no greater than was stipulated in the contract of 1890, viz., 13 knots, it ha\^ng been raised from Hi knots in 1880 to 12 knots in 188.5. For practical purposes there has been no acceleration for 25 years, since we find that in 1888, James Anthony Froude, who has left the particulai-s on record (vide " The English in the West Indies '"), made the passage by R.M.S. " Moselle ' in 276 ho\u-s, which seems to be no longer than the time contemplated intheciurent time- tables published by the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company. We suggest that the acceleration of this service by 2 or 3 knots would do much to encourage trade and intercourse between the Mother Country and the southern West Indian Colonies. We further suggest that thefoi-mer Imperial Direct Service with Jamaica should be restored in some form or other, and accelerated sufficiently to make this route as quick as any foreign route for mails and passengers. Henceforth, however, this question has to l)e considered in connection with the Panama Canal. Presumably various services will be established via the canal between Britain and the countries bordering the North and South Pacific. One of these sei-vices might per- haps be utilised to connect Jamaica with Britain, preferably via Bermuda. As to probable cost, we do not know how any reUable estimate can be reached except by calling for tenders. (6) West Indies inter se. The mail and passenger commimication between Jamaica and the southern colonies is at least 100 years behind the times. For example, in 1801, General Nugent, going out as Governor of Jamaica, was conveyed by H.M. frigat« " Ambuscade " from Bridgetown (Barbados) to Port Royal (Kingston, Jamaica) in just nine days. At present the mail service takes ten days between the same two capitals. The present mail service is circuitous, via a number of foreign ports on the Spanish main. We suggest that a comprehensive inter-Colonial service ought to be established, affording direct commiuiication one way between Jamaica and the southern islands. The distance direct is about 1.000 miles. (c) West Indies-Canada. That the service carried on by Messrs. Pickford and Black between Canadian and West Indian poi-ts (exclud- ing Jamaica) has not been adequate to existing needs is shown by the attempts of the Canadian Govemment to improve it. On this point the Royal Commission can doubtless get the fullest information from one of their number, Hon. George E. Foster, the Minister i-espon- sible. A proposal was reported to have been made in 1912 by an influential Canadian- West Indian syndicate to establish a weekly sei-vice of 15-knot 5,000-ton steamers, cariying 100 saloon passengers, between Jamaica and Halifax and St. John, connecting there with trans- Atlantic steamers, and with a subsidiary coastal service in Jamaica, for a subsidy of 60,000i. a year for 10 years. Perhaps, however, Halifax and St. John are too remote from the most populous centres of Canada to form convenient points of departure for the majority of Canadians who might visit the West Indies. Boston and New York would be more convenient to them. Either, therefore, the Canadian boats would require to call at one of these foreign ports, or else the Canadian service svould be practically confined to cargo, as hitherto, in which case speed is of secondary importance. (iv) Telegeajh Communications : Deficiencies. In our view the telegraph communications of the Empire should continue to be regarded as defective until such time as it is possible for the public in Britain and the Dominions to telegraph to any point ^vithin the collective territory with the same facility as they can now telegraph between any two points in any one of the countries. Just as there is now uniform penny postage throughout the collective territory, so there should be ultimately a uniform and cheap telegraph rate. Not until this condition is attained wiU the full use of telegraphy be realised as an agency of Empire development, and of political union. But, since under present conditions that ideal system would be financially onerous to the Governments concerned, it should be approached by gradual stages only, allowing time for the public to become more familiar with this method of communication, while keeping pace with the technical improvements of telegraphy. The reductions which have been made in cable rates from time to time carry us a little way, but only a little way, towards the goal, and ha^e failed to satisfy the ah-eady existing demand for a more popular service. Meanwhile, the passing of the North Atlantic cables into practically foreign control has strengthened the feehng of urgency in regard to the whole question of creating a complete, aD-British, Empii-e cable system. EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. 107 For many years one of the arguments used in support of that policy was that, if an Empire system were not speedily created, we might presently find that foreign countries were securing to themselves the strategic and commercial advantages which we were neglecting. A reference to the accompanying map* will show at once how far this apprehension was justified. Germany, France, and Holland have already secured many of the lines they require and are con- tinuing the policy, which they have consistently pursued, of encouraging the enterprise of their own people in this field. There has been no secret about the determination of foreign interests, not merely to secure lines independent of the British, but to secure to themselves the British lines also, whenever possible. The whole of the cables between the United Kingdom, Newfoundland, and Canada are now controlled by foreign interests. A scheme for the development of an adequate Empire system of cables was published and advocated by the Ottawa Board of Trade in 1907, the estimated cost being placed at a maximuin of 5,000, OOOL (see Pamphletf herewith). This scheme, which was based on the principle of an All-British chain of State-owned cables encircling the globe, was designed to enable messages between any two points to be forwarded either eastwards or westwards, thus affording some security against interruptions through accident or in war. At present the All-British ichain, reckoning both company and State-owned cables, is defective in so far as the West Indies are not im any link, and the North Atlantic link between Canada and Britain has virtually ceased to be Bi-itish. Cables still re(iuired, therefore, to complete the British chain are from Bathm-st to Barbados, Barbados to Bermuda (which is already connected by cable with Halifax, N.S.), and an Imperial cable from Halifax to Newfoundland and Britain, which should be laid as far north as possible. The cost would probably be about 1,500,000?. At the points above specified should be established suitable wireless stations, as feeders. But we share the view that wirele.ss telegraphy is not likely to supersede the need of cables for many years to come. The laying of these cables would create a route from Egypt and the East to the United Kingdom, Britain, and Canada which would be less liable than existing routes to interruption in war, as it would eliminate the danger zone through the Mediterranean to Gibraltar, and along the coast of Spain, Portugal, and France, and the Channel, and in the "West Indies eliminate the present landings of cable on foreign territory. It will also give an alternative British route to the Cape, and thence to Australia. The difference of time between the Cape and Britain would permit the flow of traffic across the Atlantic during hours when that route is most free of English and Canadian traffic. It is possible that by adjustment of rates the new lines could be made self-supporting if desired. [The scheme for establishing an imperial chain of wireless stations, which is now eiigcging thu attention of the Imperial British Government, may also be taken as indicating an existing deficiency, and is eminently appropriate to the purpose of our proposed Empire Board and Fund. We are of opinion that, had such a board been in existence at the outset, the peculiar troubles which have attended this important scheme would all have been avoided. In support of the above statements the following papers are submitted herewith : — (1) Ottawa Board of Trade Papers — an Address to H.E. Lord Grey on the All-Red Line. (2) Map. (3) Extract from "The Times" (April 25th, 1913). and (4) " Canadian Gazette " (April 17th), showing that both the British and Canadian Governments had recognised the need of State control over Atlantic cable rates. (5) Statements setting forth some subsidy payments and guarantees by various Governments.] Ben. H. Morgan, Chairman. Empire Ti-ade and Industry Committee, Royal Colonial Institute. James R. Boose, Secretary. 19th July 1913. APPENDICES Appendix A. [The subjoined figures have teen prepared from figures given in the " Stock Exchange Year-Book," " Stock Exchange Ofiicial Intelligence," and " Pair- play " ; and while it may be slightly out of date in certain details, the Committee believe it to be sub- stantially correct, but they cannot hold themselves responsible in any way for its accuracy.] Recent amalgamations of British shipping lineR, and list of principal foreign shipping companies : — Amalgamations. Capital. Date Internationai Mercantile Marine Company. Oceanic Steam Navigation Company, Ltd., including, with Shaw Savill and Albion, Ltd., ownership of steamship line to New Zealand. Atlantic Transport Company, Ltd. National Steamship Company, Ltd. International Navigation Com- pany, Ltd. Mississijjpi and Dominion Steamship Company, Ltd. British and North Atlantic Steam Navigation Company, Ltd. Societe Anonyme de Navigation Belge-Americaine (Red Star Line), and the shipping in- terests of Frederick Leyland & Co., Ltd. Ismay Imray & Co. Richard Mills & Co. this combine controlling a fleet of 126 vessels, with a tonnage of 1,181,125 tons. Since the report of the Commission in 1909, the progress of amalgamation has been greatly accelei-ated. During the last few years the following British shipping mergers have taken place : — Not reproduced. t Not reprinted. Amalgamations. Capital. Date. CuNARD Steamship Company, £■ 2,500,000 1912 Ltd. Anchor Line (Henderson Bros.), Ltd. Elder Dempster &, Co., Ltd - 2,010,000 1910 British and African Steam Navigation Company, Ltd. Elder Line, Ltd. Imperial Direct West India Mail Company, Ltd. ; and a half share of the Union Castle Steamship Com- pany, Ltd. (See Royal Mail Steam I'acket Company, Ltd., below). 108 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION -PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION and also interests in the Cunard. Glen and the African Steamship Company. This combine directly owns 112 vessels, with a gross tonnage of 325,983 tons. Amalgamations. Capital. Date. Lamport and Holt. Ltd. - Lamport and Holt. Livei-pool. Brazil, and River Plate Steam Navigation Com- pany, Ltd. Fleet 29 vessels, totalling 154.950 tons. (Four- fifths of the shares of Lam^ioi-t and Holt, Ltd., are held by the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, Ltd., and Messrs. Elder Dempster & Co., Ltd.) 1911 Amalgamation. Capital. I Date. Peninsular and Oriental | 3,500,000 1910 Steamship Company. Ltd. Blue Anchor Line. In this fleet there are 71 vessels, with a tonnage of 542,091 tons. Amalgamations. BoYAL Mail Steam Packet Company. Ltd. Pacific Steam Navigation Com- pany, Nelson Steam Navigation Com- pany, Ltd. ; and a half shai-e of the Union Castle Mail Steamship Company, Ltd. The Royal Mail fleet consists of 47 steamers, aggregating 235,365 tons, and the fleets of other companies closely afiiliated with their management represent 1,014,004 tons. Amalgamations. Capital. Furness, Withy jt Co., Ltd. British Maritime Trast. Ltd. Norfolk and North American Steam- ship Company', Ltd. Argentine Cargo Line. Ltd. Chesapeake and Ohio Steamship Com- pany, Ltd. London Welsh Steamship Company ,Ltd. The British and Argentine Steam Navigation Company. Ltd. Neptune Steam Navigation Company, Ltd. WTiite Diamond Steamship Company, Ltd. ; and interests in Houlder Bros. & Co., Ltd. Gulf Line. £3,500,000 Principal Foreign Shipping Companies. Line. Capital. Office. Hambui-g-Amerika - M.125,000,000 ' Hamburg Norddeutsch Lloyd M.12O.000.000 Bremen Cie. Gre. Ti-ansatlantique - F.39,000,000 Paris Messageries Maritimes - F.45,000,000 Marseilles Nippon Tusen Kaisha - Ten.22,000,000 Tokio Hansa . - . . M.25,000,000 Bremen Austrian Lloyd, and Kr.28,800.000 Vienna The International Mer- §120,000,000 New cantile Marine Com- Jersey pany of New Jei-sey. Appendix B. Extracts from recent Canadian and British news- papers illusti-ating present dissatisfaction with freight conditions, together with Extract from the reports of H.M. Ti-ade Commissioners for Canada on the sul)jeot of high freight rates. ' Canada "" newspaper. 5th July 1913 : — •• Ocean Rates. Permanent Commission Pro- posed. At the request of the Canadian Manu- facturers' Association the Ottawa Board of Trade has passed the following resolut ion and fonvarded it to the Hon. George H. Perley. Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce : ' That the Board of ' Trade of the City of Ottawa urge upon the ' Government the immediate appointment of a • Commission for the pui-pose of investigating • the excessive increases in Ocean Rates, both ' import and export, and that action be taken ' looking toward an Intel-national Conference ' composed of representatives of all maritime • nations concerned, with a view to establishing • a permanent commission with power to enquii-e ■ into such matters, and detennine what action ' is necessary to overcome combinations and ' arrangements between steamship lines to unduly ' enhance the rates which appai-eutiy now exist.'" " Conuuercial Intelligence," London, 25th Jvme 1913 :— Commenting upon the above resolution this paper, which is tenned the British Manufactui'ei-s' Export Joiu-nal. says : — ■' The enquiiy to be made " by the Empire Trade Commission is, apparently, " not regai-ded as adequate by the Canadian " traders, but the Govei-nment is not likely to " take any action until the Commission has con- " sidered the question. That any international •' action is possible we doubt, since British '• and foreign interests in the matter are not " altogether La hai-mony ; but there is lu-gent " need of tmited action within the Empire, " and the agitation in Canada may help to rouse " in Government circles a more serious view of the " position than, in this counti-y at any i-ate, they " are inclined to take at present." " The Monetary Times," Toronto, 7th Jvme 1913 : — " The question of advances in ocean fi-eight rates, both import and export, has again Ijeen discussed by the Montreal Board of Trade. It was decided to call the attention of the Govern- ment to the matter, with a vie^v of learning whether Great Britain and the other maritime nations could be induced to take joint action for the conti'ol of rates. As a preliminary step the ti-ansportation bm'eau committee of the Board recommended that the Dominion Government should be asked to appoint a commission of inquh-y with a \\eyf to arriving at all the facts in connec- tion with the advances in i-ates that have taken place within the last few years. . . . •' The question of ocean rates arises periodically. It is alleged, and generally believed, that they are regulated by combination. The question was investigated to some extent by Mr. Richai-d Grigg, Chief Canadian Trade Commissioner, when he held the position of British Ti-ade Commissioner in Canada. In a report to the Imperial Govern- ment in 1907, he said : ' It must be a matter ' of opinion as to whether i-ates of carriage are ' higher than the service wan-ants, and if they ' are it is perhaps easier to state the fact than ' to formulate a remedy. Assuming them to be ' so, it would appear that part of the preference ' designed to encoui-age the imports of British ' manufactm-e goes into the pockets of steam- ' ship ownei-s, and thereby to some extent defeats ' the intention of the preference by checking the ' imports of British goods. . . .' " •■ The Mouetaiy Times " goes on to say : The subject of the control of ocean fi-eight rates has frequently been brought to their attention (i.e., the Government), but little progress has been made with a view to an xmbiassed investigation. Meantime shippers pass sheafs of i-esolutions, and the shipping companies mind their own business." EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT AND ORGANISATION. lO'J H.M. Trade Oommissiouer for Canada (Mr. Richard Grigg), in the course of his report on the trade of the Dominion for the period from 1st July 190K to 31st March 1910 (Cd. 5591), dealing with import freight rates, states (page 53 et scq) -. — " Within the last few years considerable atten- tion has been attracted l)y the very noticeable increase in shipping freights on consignments from the United Kingdom to Canada." While the present Commissioner, Mr. A. Hamilton Wickes, in his report for 19] 2 (Cd. 6870) states :— " Freights between Europe and Canada in all '• lines of goods have shown a constant tendency " to advance during the past 10 years. On the " other hand, railway rates from American " manufacturing centres to Canada have hardly " moved." The Trade Commissioner goes on to say, "The situation would appear to amount to Appendix '• this: That sliipx)ing companies are as much " in business to make a profit as the manu- " facturer, mer(;hant, or other trader." And f ui-tber on, " It is a fact, however, that although ■■ common caiTiers, in much the same sense as " railway companies, they have so far been able " to avoid the obligations relating to freight '• imposed ujion the latter." And later on he states. "It would appear that freight has bad, " and is having, a direst effect on the imports " of the latter class of goods (i.e., manufactures " of metals, machines and machinery) into the " Dominion." And finally winds up by stating, w^ith reference to the small percentage of trade done by the United Kingdom in simple manu- factures of metals, that '• but the difference in '■ freight rates from the United Kingdom may " also be taken to be a conti-ibutive factor." RATE PER TON 1902 1903 1904 1906 i9oe 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 65s. 50s. i 1 il If 45s. ij 1 ■ / f 1 / '1 ' 1 40S. / I \ 1 // / / / / 1 f / 1 / / 35s. / / / / / / / -- / 30s. 7 "^S.-^ ^^^ ^ •''/ > r ..^ -A / / / / / s , / _/ / / yv' /^ i \> r 25s. \ \ 1 1 V \ 1 1 \ J \ \ / f N ' V Hnmpsunrii Frp.icrh ^<r Ouh varcf i Freigh 'fS - The figures given in the Rate column are ai-rired at thus : By the increase in Freight, goods bearing a rate of 32s. per ton in 1902 would in 1912 have paid 52s. 6d. per ton. E 20830 P 110 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION. Tijincal Increases of Freight Rates. H.M. Trade Commissioner for Canada, 1912 Report. (Cd. 6870, p. 2(5.) 1910. Per ton. 7s. Sd. m. 1913. Per ton. Sijs. Od. m. 25s. Od. m. I 35s. Od. m. Cutlery : United King- dom to Montreal. Cutlery : Liverpool to Toronto (car load i lots). I Metal Nuts: United I 12s. 6d. wt. : 17s. M. wt. Kingdom to Montreal ! Iron Girders - - ' 12s. 6d. wt. IHs. :i<7, wt. " Daily Mail " Year Book, 1913. Bulk Cargoes. Oct. 1911. Oct. 1912. Per ton. Per ton. Azoff to Rotterdam 10s. ■3d. 20s Od. Savannah to Liverpc .ol 33s. M. 60s. Od. Odessa to London or 10s. 3d. 18s. Od. Rotterdam. Cardiff to Genoa - 1 9s. 3d. 13s. Od. Appendix D. — -1 to 6. Instances of Lower Freights frmn CoiitinctdaJ than from Dnited Kingdom Ports to Overseas. 1 . A British Manufacturers' Association states : — 1 have pleasure in giving you the following note of freight on linen goods : — Per 10 cubic ft. Belfast to New York (Lusitania) (Mauretania „ „ White Star Anchor Cunard Belfast to Cape Town from outh- ampton. Belfast to Buenos Aires Antwerp to New York - ia) / 52s. 3d. *19s. 6d. 46s. 9d. 79s. 6rf. *29s. Od. 2. The following figures are supplied by one of the largest British electrical manufacturers : — Ekctrial Material. — Glass, W.T. tubes, earthen- ware i)ots, sal-ammoniac, metal filament lamps, common porcelain, machinery, woodenware, lead shot, zinc rods, electrical fittings, accumulators ; — Avcmge of Freight Rates on above : — Groods from. As at Ajml, 1913. Rebate. Hamburg to Bombay Ijondon to Bombay Hamburg to Sydney London to Sydney Per ton mm. or weight. Pel- cent 21.S. (id. 5 24s. 11 rf. 5 33s. 2d. 10 37s. 3d. 5 3. His Majesty's Trade Commissioner for New Zealand states in his Report for 1911 : — "A further point to be considered is that of outwai'd freights. Instances can be given with- out end to show how German and American goods are brought out via, British ports in British ships at lower freight rates than similar British goods from those same British ports. The shipping companies can of course plead that their only concern is to secure all the freight they can, and by underquoting foreign com- petitors prevent them from putting more foreign boats on to those runs. They would perhaps See 5, in next column. argue fmther that in so doing in the long rim they are benefiting British manufactm-ers. At the same time they must realise that very con- siderable harm is jjeing done by this policy. Not only is the British manufacturer handicapped in competition, but he is in some cases, forced out of the field — his goods bemg, as a rule, more expensive owing to higher quality, and the additional higher cost of transport making it impossible to market the goods. A special instance is agricultural implements, where British makers in the United Kingdom find it difficult, if not impossible, to compete with America and Canada. But apart from this the impression given iu the Dominion must be taken into account. A very considerable impetus has been given to British manufacture by the levy of higher tariff rates on non-British goods. At the same time a diametrically opposite policy is being carried out by an important section of the British community ; the same goods which the Dominion is trying to keep out by higher duties in the interests of the United Kingdom are being pushed in by our shipowners through lower freights, and the deliberate policy of the Dominion is being fi-ustrated." 4. H.M. Trade Commissioner for Canada (Mr. Richai-d Grigg), in his report on Canadian trade, 1st Jidy 1906 to 31st March 1910 (Cd. 5591), states (p. 44) :— " Attention may here be directed to the fact that the whole position of ti'ade is intimately dependent upon shipping facilities. No anioimt of preferential duty, and no alacrity on the part of the British merchant, can avail to hold the Canadian market if the conditions and cost of shipment are such as to militate against the supply of the market from overseas. It is there- fore necessary for all who are interested on both sides of the Atlantic in the maintenance and extension of British trade, to see to it that ocean freight rates are kept at a point which vrill not imperil the future importation of British goods. At various points in the present report, and especially on p. 53, this matter comes under general discussion, but it needs also to bo empha- sised in this summary of the general tendency and movement of British and American com- petition." Again (p. 54) — " The subject is one of vitiil interest to the exporters of British goods, inasmuch as the rise in freights threatens to reach a point which, in the opinion of many well-informed people in Canadian commercial circles, may affect the benefits accruing to British traders from the preferential tariff. " 5. H.M. Trade Commissioner for Canada, Mr. A. Hamilton "Wickes (Cd. 6870), states : — " It is not unusual to hear a well-informed business man state that he is ' confident that the preferential tariff is being utilised by the ocean transport companies to squeeze higher freight out of the goods from the United Kingdom,' thereby cancelling, to a great extent, the concession imder the tariff extended to British trade by the Canadian Government. I believe this view to be an illusion. In any case, as far as it might be applied to shipments from countries of conti- nental Europe, the trade is so small in volume that even if it had been the practice to give a materially lower preferential i-ate for such ship- ments, it has not, so far, had much effect. Still, quite recently, a New York importei', in a letter dated 20th January 1913, addi-essed to the Chairman of the Committee of the House of Representatives sitting at Washington on the ' so-called Shipping Combine,' stated as follows : — " Lmens from Belfast by any or all of the Conference Lines to New York are charged a freight (with 10 per cent, piimage) of 49s. 6d. per ton. while similar goods from Prance, md HaATe and Southampton, by one of the ship- ping companies in the Conference, were carried to New York at 26s. 6d. per ton.'" 6. The Manchester Association of Importers and Exporters, in its report for year ended Februai-y 1913, states; — in: 'Alii ii NATURAL RESOURCES : COTION-GROWING. Ill " The attention of the High Commissioner for Australia in London was called to the more favourable facilities for transportation granted to Continental competitors, and more especially to the exceptional facilities afforded in con- nection with the export of wire and wire goods from the Continent in competition with the United Kingdom. It was pointed out that the effect of a Continental manufactiu-er having, say, 2s. 6f7. per ton cheaper steamer freight to pay, was that he might he able to cut out the British manufactiu'er without giving the whole of the 2s. Gd. to the buyer. Cases have teen laid before the Association where the British manufacturer has lost an order by less than the difference in the rate of freight. It was essential, therefore, that a preference should be given to British wire and wire goods which were admitted into Austi^alia upon the ' Free List,' and tliat the preference of 5 per cent, granted ta barbed wire of British manufacture should be increased. The Comptroller-General (Department of Trade and Customs, Melbourne), to whom the matter was relegated, promised to give full consideration to these recommendations when the tariff was under revision ; but when the Tariff Amendment Bill was subsequently introduced into the Australian House of Representatives no amended provisions for wire goods were made. The efforts of the Association will not be relaxed, and it is hoped that eventu;illy British exporters of these commodities will be placed on a sounder footing." Ben. H. Moegan, Chairman, Empire Trade and Industry Committee, Royal Colonial Institute. Jamks R. Boose, Secretary. 19th July 191 15, IV. -NATURAL RESOURCES. Correspondence with the British Cotton Growing Association, the Official Secretary, High Commissioner's Office, Commonwealth of Australia, and the Agent-General for Queensland, as to Cotton-Growing in Australia. 1. British Cotton Growing Association, 25th October 1913 . - - - - 2. Bi-itish Cotton Growing Association, 14th November 1913 - - - - - 3. Royal Commission to the British Cotton Growing Association, 20th November 1913 4. Royal Commission to the Official Secretary, High Commissioner's Office, Commonwealth Australia, and to the Agent- General for Queensland, 20th November 1913 of p. Ill p. 114 p. 114 p. lir> The British Cotton Growing Association, Manchester, Dear Sib, 25th October 1913. With reference to the conversation which took place at the Conference held at the Colonel Office on October 22nd, I have much pleasure in informing you that I have discussed the matter with the Executive Committee of this Association and that they are anxious and willing to help as far as possible in proving definitely whether cotton can begro\TOon a commercial basis in any part of Australia. 2. They were nuicli disturbed at the report I gave them that there was a feeling that Australia had not been fairly treated by this Association, and they wish me to convey to the members of the Cimimission their assurance that it is their wish and intention, as it always has been, to do their Ijest to help in esta- blishing cotton-growing in all parts of the Bi-itish Empire where the climate, soil, and other conditions ai'e favourable. In proof of this, I beg to refer you to the extracts from correspondence attached hereto as follows 1 — (1) 1905 — .lauuary 19th, B.C.G.A., to Mr. .1. Bottomley. 1905 — March 24th. B.C.G.A. to Mr. J. Bottomley. 1905— April 27th, B.C.G.A. to Mr. .1. Bottomley. 1905— May l(5th, B.C.G.A. to Mr, .1. B.jttomley. 1906— December 10th, B.C.G.A. to the Agent- General for Queensland. 1907 — .lanuary 28th, Department of Agriculture, Brisbane, to the Agent-General for Queens- land. 1907— March 14th, B.C.G.A. to the Agent- General for Qiieensland. 3. It will be evident to you, from a perusal of the above, that although my Council were very doubtful as to the possibility of producing cotton in Australia on a commercial basis, they were willing to help as far as lay in theu' power, but they considered that it was essential for success that the local Govenmienta should take part in the ventm-e. I hope, however, that the Commission will do then- best to lemove the unfortunate misunderstandings which have arisen in the past, fm- I can assure you that it has always been our policy to do all we could to assist any Government (2) (4) (5) (0) (7; or Government Department which took up cotton- growing seriously. I should also add that we shall be more than pleased if it can be proved that we are wrong in the impression we fox-med that it was impos- sible to cultivate cotton on a profitable basis where white labour only is available. Ton wiU, however, appreciate the fact that the situation has entirely changed during the last few years and since we made our previous offers to the Queensland Government, and that we are no longer in a position to devote a large sum of money to experimental work. As will be seen from our Annual Report for 1912. a copy of which is enclosed, we have already spent over 170,000?. in experimental work, and therefore we can no longer afford to devote any large .s\mi of money towards proving whether cotton can or ciinnot lie grown on a commercial basis in Australia. 4. The Committee wish me to state how very much they appreciate the telegraphic offer from the Queens- land Government. dated October Kith,* which was placed ))efore the meeting of October 22nd. They feel that this is a practical step in the right direction, and they are prepared to do what they can to reciprocate. 5. I must, however, point out that the Committee do not think that a mere otter to guarantee a mininunu price is sufficient, for before one would be justified iu encouraging any farmer to spend money in growing cotton, it is essential that certain experimental work should be carried out with various types of cotton and in different districts in order to prove which type of cotton is most suitable for each district and which ai-e the best methods of cidtivation, and also whether or not the cotton can be produced on a commercial basis — or in other words, whether the farmer can make money out of it. 6. We do not think it necessary to send out an expert to examine the soil or to investigate the climate, or as to whether the local conditions are suitable for cotton. We already have sufficient evidence, and the Imperial Institute can supplement this, proving that cotton of good quality can be' produced. What has to be proved is whether cotton can be grown on a com- mercial basis and this c'au only be ascertaiiied by actual experiments, and in order to definitely prove the case these experiments should be spread over a period of not less than three yeai-s. Not printed. P 2 112 DOillNIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION 7. We therefore urge that iu the first instance an agriculturist with good practical knowledge of cotton- growing should be engaged for a period oi three years. and he might with advantage be attached to one of the local agricultural departments. If he has had a soimd training in tropical agriculture he would probably be useful in connection with sugar and other tropical products than cotton. 8. Secondly, a series of practical experiments should be immediately inaugurated with dift'erent types of seed and different methods of culti\ation. and in this con- nection it is not absolutely necessary to have a Govern- ment E.tperimental Station, which are generally rather costly. The evidence required might be more economically obtained by making arrangements with selected farmers to cultivate small experimental plots under the supervision of the cotton expert. This is often done in the United States and iu Egypt and it is generally arranged that the farmershould be guaranteed a minimum crop. In any case it is essential tliat the Government should have absohite control over the seed for further distribution. 9. In the second season those varieties of cotton which had proved to be failures should be eliminated and the experiments with the more satisfactory types should be continued on a more extensive scale. If this ■work is carried tm ct)ntinuously it is more than probable that in four or fi\e years" time a reliable type of cottcm will be thoroughly established in each particular district, and in this connection it must not be forgotten that it by no means follows that a variety of cotton which has proved a success in one district will be ecjually successful in another district, even though the two districts are closely adjacent. In our opinion, until such experiments have been carried out and the most suitable variety has been firmly established, it is not safe to distribute seed broadcast and to induce farmers to plant cotton. The result would probably mean serious losses to the farmers. 10. We cannot impress (m you too strongly that the seed which is used for sowing is the most vital factor in connection with cotton-growing. No matter how uood the soil or how favom-able the climatic conditions, or how excellent the cultivation, unless the seed is sound and well matured and of a variety suitable to the district, the result must be faihire. Further than that, it is most dangerous to grow several varieties in one district. Cotton is a very variable plant and is easily self-hybridised, with the result that the crop will become more and more mixed if different varieties are planted in close proximity. There is a further danger when cotton is grown on various farms from various varieties that the different qualities will be mixed together, and the value of the cotton seriously depreciated. F<ir example, if cotton 1} inches long, and worth, say, 10(7. a lb., is mixed with cotton 1 inch in length and worth, say, 7(7. a pound, it is probable that its value will be less than tUrf. per lb. For these reasons we strongly \irge that the seed supply should be entirely iu the hands of the Government, and that no (">ue should be allowed either to import or to distribute seed except vmder licence from the Government. 11. Further, the ginning and baling of the cotton should be under Government ctmtrol, for it is just as dangerous to mix different growths together in the ginning and baling as it is to sow mixed seed. All dirty or stiiined cotton shoidd be kept separate from clean cotton, and ginned and baled separately. It is also advisable to keep the first, second, and third pickings separate from one another. I have dwelt rather at length on tliese points, for it cannot be insisted on too often that when one is dealing with high-class cotton these are the only methods by which one can expect to obtain high pi-ices, and I presume that it would be of little use to attempt to grow low- grade cotton in Australia. 12. As regards tlie type of cotton which should be gi-own. only experience will enalile one to decide defi- nitely whicli type will be most suitable. I may, how- ever, state at once that there are two types which should not be encouraged, viz., Sea Island and perennial cotton. The market for Sea Island cotton is a very small one. and is already very fully supplied from the United States and the West Indies. As regards perennial types, they may do well enough on a small scale, but, speaking from experience spread all over the world, in the long run their cultivation is not a profit- able one, and the type of cotton, though smtable for mixing with wool, is not suitable for cotton-spinning. There is also the gi'eat disadvantage that they give every facility for the spread of cotton pests and diseases. The modern practice is to cultivate all cotton as an annual and to liave all the plants destroyed at the end of each season, so as to prevent them acting as a bridge to convey the pests from erne season to another. For the same reason " ratooning," or pruning back the plants for a second season's growth should be absolutely forbidden, for there is the additional disad- vantage that the fibre deteriorates year by year. 13. The other remaining types are Indian, Egyptian, and American. Indian cotton is short, of very low value, and can therefore be ruled out at once. Egyp- tian does well under irrigation, but is hardly to be I'ecommended as a rain crop, but it might be worth while trying a few small experiments. As regards American, we should hardly recommend the shorter stapled varieties owing to their low value, though these are undoubtedly the easiest to grow, and are heavy croppers. There ai-e. however, many high-class varieties of Upland cotton, some of which are worth as much as good Egyptian cotton, as. for example, Allen's Improved, Sunflower, Griffin, ic. and as far as we can judge this type would probably be most suitable foi- the country, though this can only be decided after two or three years' careful experimental work. We generally reckon that it takes from four to five years to thoroughly estalilish a variety of cotton. It is just possible that some suitable types are already estab- lished, and we should be glad to carefully examine and report on any samples sent to us. 14. After careful consideration of the whole ques- tion the Committee authorised me to make the follow- ing offer to the Commission : — ((() If the Govei-nment decide to undertake any experimental work on the lines sug- gested above, the Association will do all in their power to assist either by advice or otherwise, and they will contrilnite the sum of 1007. per aiuium towards the cost of these experiments for a period of three years, dating from July 1st, 1914. (b) The Association will supply, free of charge. small quantities of seed for experimental purposes. (c) The Association will r-eport from time to time OQ any samples of cotton and will advise as to their suitability for the market. ((7) The Association will superintend the sale of any cotton or seed shipped to this coiiutry and will undertake to obfaiin the best possible price for such shipments. (e) The Association will keep separate accounts for each shipper and will superintend the remittance of the proceeds of each lot of cotton or seed, and will pay the same to the accoimt of the producer either in this country or i)i Austi-alia. (/ ) The Association will pay the ocean freight and will superintend the insui'ance of the cotton, and will, when required, arrange for it to lie covered against all risks from the time it is weighed in from the fields i\\) to the ware- house in Liverpool. ((/) The Association will, when required, make arrangements for financing cotton or seed by accepting bills drawn tm shipment. (7i') The Association are pi-epared to supply ginning and other niachineiy, baling material anil other stoi-es. on easy terms of repayment, and will give the buyer the full advantage of all cash and trade discounts. (/) The Association will charge for tlie above services the following commission in addi- tion to interest and other out-of-piuket charges : — NATURAL RESOI'HCES: POTTON-OROWING. 113 Cotton - 1 per cent, iucludiiig the broker's charges of J per cent. Seed - 1t< per cent, including the broker's charges of 1 per cent. Buildings, machinery, baling materials, &c. 2 per cent. No additional charge will he made for acceptance of bills, payment of freights, insurance premiums, &c. (j) For a period of three years, dating from July 1st 1914, the Association will guarantee a minimum price in Liverpool or London of dhd. per pound (less insurance, port, and other charges, which amount to about id. per pound) for all cotton forwarded to them for sale, and which shall have been produced from an annual variety grown from seed issued by the Government, and which shall be shipped in a clean and merchantable condition. Any surplus which may be olitained over the above-mentioned price of Sf^d. per pound will be remitted to the planter. It is stipulated that this offer does not apply to any cotton grown from perennial varieties or from ratooned cotton. In conclusion, I can only hope that this offer may be the means of establishing cotton-growing in Australia on a permanent basis. I am. &c. .1. ARTHUR HITTTON. Chiiirman. The Secretai-y, Dominions Royal Commission. Enclosure 1. The British Cotton Growing Association, Manchester, Dear Sir, January 19th, 190.J. We beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of November 22nd. The whole question of the future action in Australia came up before the Committee on Tuesday last, and they have pi-actieally decided to undertake no work in Australia except thi'ough the various Governments. In their opinion the pioneering work should l:>e under- taken by the local authorities, and if they areprepai-ed to take the matter up seriously, and can put a definite scheme before this Association, the Council would, I think, be willing to co-operate and to assist by, say, the supplying of seed and machinery, or in other ways. If the pioneering work proves successful, and estab- lishei! the fact that cotton can lie economically produced in Australia, then arrangements can Ije maile for further developments on commercial lines. I may, however, tell you, to prevent any disappoint- ment or misunderstanding, that the Council have very little hope of cotton being economically produced in large quantities in Australia generally, and are not prepared to sink any large amount of money in experi- ments in that part of the world. In our opinion, should we have low prices of cotton as we have at the moment, and which will reciu' again from time to time, it is almost impossible for Australia with her dear lal)ourto produce cotton to sell at a profit, or to compete with those comitries where there are large supplies of cheap coloured labour. Unless cotton proves a profltalile crop for the farmer, it is no use wasting time and money in trying to extend its cultivation in Australia. Yours, &c., J. A. Htjtton. V/rc-('liiiiriii(in. J. Bottom LEY, Es([. c/o Department of Agriculture, Brisbane, Queensland. Australia. Enclosure 2. EXTEACX from Mr. Htjtton's Letter to Mr. BoTTOSTLET, dated 24th March, 190-5. (In acknowledging his letters of January 20th, 26th, and 27th.) " I have already written you that in view of the difficulties of labour, &c., this Association does not feel inclined to undertake on its own account any work in Australia, but at the same time if any of the Groveni- ments ai'e prepared to initiate a series of experimental work with a view to the ultimate establishment of cotton-growing, this Association would be very glad to co-operate as far as possible, and, if necessary, to contribute something towards the expenses of the same." Enclosure 3. Extract from Mr. Hutton's Letter of April 27th, 190.!), to Mr. John Bottomley. (Acknowledging Mr. Bottomley 's letter of March 11th.) " As regards the pioneering work, I think I have not made myself jierfectly clear. If the Government is prepared to undertake the jjioneering work, we are prepared to assist and <'(>operate with them and not to wait until it is demonstrated that cotton can be grown to commercial advantage. To put it in other words, if any of the Australian Governments will take this matter up seriously we shall be prepared to supply seed and ginning machinery, and possibly some small money grants. What we want to ascertain is whether cotton can or cannot be grown at a profit, and we feel that it is only right that the expense of this experi- mental work should lie shared between the Government and this Association. When it has been sufficiently demonstrated that there is a reasonable chance of profit for the cultivator, then of course we shall have to consider the best means of placing the whole of the industry on a commercial basis." Enclosure 4. Extract from Letter from Mr. Hutton to Mr. Bottomley. dated May Itjth, 190.".. (Acknowledging Mr. Bottomley's letter of 24th March.) " You refer in your letter to our decision to under- take no work in Australia except through the various Governments, but of course if you are able to submit any proposals which you think might be useful, they will have the careful consideration of the Committee. At the same time, these proposals would have very much more weight if they were backed up by the Government authorities. " As regards the question of the emi)lo3'ment of coloured labour in Australia, the Committee do not see their way to make any protest against the present policy of the Australian Governments. We feel that it might be looked upon as an unjustifiable interference in a political question." Enclosure 5. Extract from Mr. Hutton's Letter of December 10th, 1906. (Acknowledging letter from the Agent-General for Queensland of December 8th.) •■ I hardly think it probable that Lancashire will he inclined to invest money in growing cotton in Queens- land as owing to the importation of coloured labour being prohibited it is improliable that that counti-y will ever be able to produce cotton on a large scale at a sufficiently low cost to enalile it to compete witli West and East Africa. •• and I can assure yon that if this Association can assist cotton-growing in Queensland in any way, their services are at the disposal ,of the Government." P :? lU DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION: — PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMISSION: Enclosure G. Depai-tment of Agriculture and Stock, Brisbane. giE 2Sth January 1907. I HAVE the honour to acknowledge the receipt of yoTO- letter of the 21st ultimo, covering a copy of a lett«r from the British Cotton Growing Association on the subject of cotton-growing in QueensLind. and. in reply, to inform you that the Association's letter has entirely confinned the impression formed by this Department of the intentions of the Association to direct their energies to counti-ies where black or cheap labour is available, owing to a belief that cotton caimot \je profitably cultivated by white or European labour. In this connection it is desired that you will have the goodness to take eveiy step possible to dispel that Ulusion, for illusion it is. No one argues that maize cannot be cultivated by white labour for the reason that maize has been so cultivated since Australia was settled. Cotton is no more irksome than maize and the returns are much better, present experience showing that upon a thousand lb. crop to the acre the nett profit exceeds that of maize by about "2?. 8.?. The average given, moreover, is a small one when .judged by last s^son when the return reached 2,300 lbs. to the acre in instances. The area under cotton is gradually increasing, and as there is a profitable market in Australia for aU that can be grown for some time to come, the assistance of the British Cotton Growing Association will not be invoked for the p\u-pose of finding a market, but it is not well that the idea that cotton cannot be profitably cultivated, excepting by coloured labour, should remain undisputed. , I have, &c.. The Acting Secretary, Queensland Government Offices. Under Secretary. would not realise that a price of 63d. per lb. in Liver- pool does not mean G^rf. net. "We are, however, anxious to do all we can to help in the matter, and should very much regret if this misunderstanding should cause an unnecessary amount of trouble. I explained the matter to the members of the Executive Committee, and I am glad to say they fully approve of the proposal I made yesterday to alter our offer to Ghd. per lb. net. They suggest that the offer should be confined to Liverpool, as there is no object in sending cotton to London, as it only causes additional expense in transporting it to Liverpool, where it is sold. I therefore propose that Clause 14j of my letter of October 2.5th should read as follows : — •' For a period of three years, dated from July 1st, 1914, the Association will guarantee a minimum nett price in Liverpool of 6i(/. per lb. for all cotton forwarded to them for sale, and which shall have been pi-oduced from an annual variety grown from seed issued by the Govern- ment, and which shall be shipi>ed in a clean and merchantable condition. Any sm-plus which may be obtained over the above men- tioned price of (i!td. per lb. after deduction of insurance, brokerage, port and harbour dues, interest, and other out-of-pocket charges, will be remitted to the planter. It is stipulated that this offer does not app)ly to any cotton grown from perennial varieties or from ratooned cotton." Hoping that this may prove a satisfactory solution of the difficxilty. Tours, ic. * J. ARTHUR HUTTON, Chairman. The Secretary, Dominions Royal Commission, Enclosui-e 7. The British Cotton Growing Association, Manchester, Sir, March 14th, 1907. I AM much obliged for your letter of March 12tli. with a copy of the letter received from the Department of Agriculture. I am very glad to hear that cotton can be profitably cultivated by white or Em-opean labour, and I am al.-io "lad to hear that our assistance is not requii-ed in any ■way, though it is needless to say that if we can help at any time, in any way, we shall be only too glad to do so. I may mention that we have offered our services to the Government of Queensland several times, and as we have never had any encouragement to jiroceed further in the matter, we were forced to the conclusion that our assistance was not required, and it was for that reason we have devoted om- principal energies to those coun- tries where black or cheap labour is available, and not because of the belief that cotton could not be profitably cultivated liy white or European labour. We have been always wUing at all times to caiTy out expeii- ments in various parts of the world, even though we thought that they might be failui-es. Our desire has been to " prove " countries with the object of extension later on. I am. &.C., The Agent-General for J. Arthur Hctton, Queensland, Chnirmun. London. 2. The British Cotton Growing Association, l."), Cross Street. Manchester. DE.A.R Sir, 14th Novemter. 1913. With reference to our conversation yesterday, I should be much obliged if you would explain to the members of the Commission tliat I am sorry that I should have in any way caused a misunderstanding as to our guarantee of a minimum price. We are always accustomed to think in Liverpool tei-ms, and I should have remembered that the memliers of the Commission 3. Dominions Royal Commission, Scotland House, Victoria Embankment. London, S.W. Sir. 20th November 1913. I AM directed by the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission to inform you that yom- letter of Octolier 2.">th. and yoiu- further letter of November 14tli. were considered l)y the membei-s of the Commission at a meeting on Saturday, November l.'Jth. At this meeting, the Commission had before tliem a memorandum from the Director of the Imiierial Institute strongly recommending acceptance of the projjosals of the British Cotton Growing Association. They were also furnished by the Official Secretary to the High Commissioner's Office. Commonwealth of Australia, and by the Agent-General for Queensland, with copies of telegi-ams between themselves and their respective Governments, from which it appeared : — («) that the Commonwealth Government were willing to divert the contribution of 500/. originally promised ; and (b) that the Queensland Government were ready to provide the sum of '001. ; as contributions to the salaiy of a specialist to he attached to the Queensland Agricultural Department for thi-ee years in order to make experiments in cotton-growing and to give practical instruction to growers. In view of the fact that sufficient money had been assured to pay for the services of an adviser on cotton- growing for a period of years, and in view of the jjroposals made m your letters under reference, which seemed to the Conrmission generous and satisfactoiy, the members felt that it only remained for them to recommend strongly to the Commonwealth and Queensland Governments that the offer of the Britisli . Cotton Growing Association should be accepted, details being left for adjustment between the Association and the Govei'nraents concerned. This recommendation they have now made. But they wish to thank the Executive Committee of the British Cotton Growing Association for the readiness with which the Association has met their NATURAL KESOUROES : COTTON-GROWING. 115 suggesfcious for co-operation between the Association and the Commonwealth and State Grovernments, and they desire to add that they ai-e gratified to find that their inquiries with reference to the possibilities of cotton-growing in Australia have led so rapidly to practical action of vast potential importance. I am, &c.. The Chairman, E. J. HARDING. British Cotton Growing Association, Manchester. Dominions Royal Commission to (1) the Official Secketaey, High Commissioner's Office, CoMMONWEAiTH OP AUSTRALIA and (2) the Agent- Geneeal for Queensland. Dominions Royal Commission, Scotland House, Victoria Embankment. London, S.W. Sir, 20th November, 1913. I AM directed by the Chaiiman of the Dominions Royal Commission to enclose, for your information, a copy of a letter from the British Cotton Growing Association, in which some modification is suggested in the proposals contained in the previous letter of October 25th (of which a copy has ah-eady been sent to you) with regard to cotton-growing in Australia. The two letters from the British Cotton Growing Asssociation, with a memoiundum on the same subject from the Director of the Imperial Institute (of which a copy is enclosed), were considered by the Commission at a meeting on November 15th, and the members present were unanimous in thinking that the proposals of the Association were generous and satisfactory. They were gi-atified to learn, from a perusal of the telegrams between yourself and the [1. Commonwealth] [2. Queensland] Government and between [1. The Agent-General for Queensland] [2. Captain Muirhead CoUins] and the [1. Queensland] [2. Commonwealth] Government, of which cojjies had teen furnished to them, that the two Governments were prepared to contribute the reniainder of the sum required to jirocure the sei-vices of an agriculturist with special erperience in cotton-growing, to be attached to the Queensland Agricultural Department for a term of years in order to conduct a series of experiments as suggested by the British Cotton Growing Association and also to give practical instruction to growers. The Commission felt that, as matters had advanced to this stage, it only remained for them strongly to recommend both to the Commonwealth and the Queens- land Governments that the proposals of the British Cotton Growing Association should be accepted in their entirety, details being left for adjustment between the Governments and the Association. This recommendation they now make, and they hope to learn before the close of their inquiries that the cotton industry is well on its way to successful establishment in Australia. Tlie members of the Commission desire also to record their appreciation of the readiness to meet their suggestions for co-operation shown by the Common- wealth and Queensland Governments and by the British Cotton Growing Association ; they are pleased to find that so speedy and practical a result haa followed their investigations into this most important subject. I am, &c., E. J. HARDING. (1) The Official Secretary, High Commissioner's Office, Commonwealth of Australia. (2) The Agent-General for Queensland, P i 116 INDEX OF NAMES. [Numbers preceded Viy q. refer to number of question of evidence, and number preceded by p. to number of page.] BILES. Professor Sir JOHN HARVARD, LL.D.. D.Sc, memorandum on the economic size and speed of steam vessels - - - - p. 90-93 CEABB, EDWARD, C,B., Second Secretary of the General Post Office - - - - q. 221-560 All-Red mail route via Canada and Vancouver 517-20 Australian mails, speed question - 486-500, 521-5, 558-9 /~1 i TIT 15' SI • Atlantic - p. 12. 241-2, 244-5, 261, 288-92, 334-5, 341-6 Atlantic, State-owned p. 11-12, 238, 293-300, 328-33, 347-52. 353-8, 379-89 Cable-letters p. 11, 254-6, 258-60, 263-70, 318-23, 324-7, 338-40 Codes p. 11, 246, 316-7 Deferred messages - p. 11. 246, 248-53, 263-70, 285-7, 336-7 North America, Post Office obligations re traffic to p. 11. 279-83 Pacific - p. 11, 226-32, 262, 301-3, 313-5, .359 Reduction of rates in various services and results 261, 271-8, 304-12, 341-6 Reduction of rates question - - p. 11-2 Subsidies p. 11. 233-6 ILviLS : Cape route - 411-7. 444-6. 476, 502-3. 561-5 Contracts - - p. 20-1, 387-401. 466-9. 504-11. 516, 538-9, 541-6, 549-67 Overland route 402-10 Services ■ p. 21-3, 383-6, 424-9, 462-5, 480-5, 526, 558-9 Siberian route ---.-- 431-6 Steamships burning oil - - - 528-52 Suez route 476-9 United States system - - - 437-43 P. & O. mail contract - - p. 20-1. 418-9. 504-5. 533-10, 512-5, 521-6, 527, 547-8 "Wireless ...... 363-73 GODDARD, STANLEf J., European representative of "Western Union Telegi-aph Co. - q. 714-861 Anglo-American Telegraph Cf>. - - 777-9, 781 Atlantic Cables : Australian ti-affic ..... 821-4 Further facilities, question - - - 802-3 Number ....... 716-8 Rates ...... 763—76 Rates, reduction question - 715, 804-13, 760-2 Atlantic State-owned cable .... 815-6 Cables : Charge by letter, question - • 794-7, 847-9 Codes - 715, 749-57, 798-800, 839-41, 859-61 Deferred messages ..... 842-6 Night cable letters .... 715, 743-6 W"eek-end messages - 715, 739-44, 842-6, 851-8 Direct United States Telegraph Co, - - 780 Western Union 715, 719-38, 747, 771-6, 782-93, 831-7 HIBBERDINE, WILLIAM, Traffic Accountant to the Eastern Telegraph Company. Ltd., the Eastern and South African Telegraph Company, Ltd.. and the Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company, Ltd., see Pender, Sir John Denison, and Hibberdine, William q. 862-1146 PARK, Captain J. B., Principal Emigi-ation Officer for the London District - - - q. 1-220 Emigration : Agents - 2-6, 9-12, 11-20, 23-7, 31-3, 62-76, 77, 82-90, 109-15, 111-2, 116-39 Contracts not specifying name of ship or date of saiHng 97-108 Misrepresentation - - 27-30, 36-7, 91-6 Passage brokers 2, 6-10, 35, 36-41, 43-52, 60-1, 78-81, 110-5, 129-36, 138-9 Voyage : Abuses during .... 186-94 Hospital accommodation 140, 157, 164, 170-3, 199-204, 207-12 Infectious diseases 140-58, 174-9, 205-6. 213-5 Matrons - - - 164^5, 167-9, 195-8 PARK. Captain J. B. — continued. Emigration — continued. Voyage — ccnitimied. Privacy - - - - - - 164 Separation of the sexes 159-63. 181-5, 199-201, 207-12 Stewards 166, 216-20 PENDER. Sir JOHN DENISON-. and HIBBER- DINE, WIXLIAM. Eastern Telegraph Co., Ltd., Eastern and South African Telegraph Co., Ltd.. and Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Co.. Ltd. - - - - q. 862-1146 Cables : Accuracy and speed more important to business men than cost .... 1059-61 Charge by letters .... 1145-6 Codes 911-4, 947 Day cable letters to Far East and question - 866, 939-41 Defen-ed messages 865, 866, 922-3, 926-7, 944-7 Far East traffic 1108-11 Week-end cable letters 866, 878-9, 882-7, 918, 922, 928-35, 942. 979, 995, 1000-26, 1042-7, 1087-95 Eastern Companies : Australian traffic, routes - 865, 889-99, 909-10 Canvassing ...... 1123 Capacity .... 865, 900-10, 976-8 Co-operation with Pacific Cable Board - 865, 991-2. 1096-100 Cost of laying cables - 867-75, 969-71, 1141^ Dividend and capital - - . - 1133-6 Fao route 866, 1035-41 Improvements - - 865-6, 876, 1062-5. 1140 Press traffic - 865. 980-1, 112.5-30. 1075-9 Rates and traffic 685. 914-6, 936-7, 956-62. 964^5, 996-9, 1027-34. 1052-3, 1066, 1082-3, 1112-22 Reserve funds - - - 867, 1101-2, 1134 Revenue (Australia) .... 1084-5 Social code - - 948-54, 1067-9, 1070-1 Traffic 974-5 International Telegraphic Convention - 947, 982-90 PIRRIE. Right Hon. LORD. K.P.. memorandum on the development of harboui-s from the point of \new of shipowners and shipbuilders - p. 99-100 PRIMROSE, The Right Hon. Sib HENRY, K.C.B., C.S.I., Chairman of the Pacific Cable Board q. 566-713 Atlantic cables 573, 704-9 Atlantic State-owned cable - - 658-9, 692-8 Eastern Telegraph Company - - . . 595-6 Cables : Deferred messages - - - 582-5, 699-700 PRcific ' Capacity - - - 586-94, 635-8, 672-81 Rates, policy 597-9 Rates, reduction, question 580-1, 603, 630—1, 655-7, 661-4, 688-90 Traffic increase, question of increase of staff 626-9, 665-7, 710-3 Press - - - 573-7, 614, 616-23, 680-8 Traffic and rates p. 29, 568-72, 578-9, 615, 624-5. 641-54, 697 Week-end - - 402, 580, 582, 604-13, 699-703 Wireless 668-71 SNOW, E. C. M.A.. D.Sc. - - - p. 58-86 Agricultural labour in England - - p. 66-7 Effect of migration on production and consumption p. 67-8 Emigration : Association between external trade and, question of ------ - p. 61-4 Effect on British trade, question of - p. 59-61 Migration from, and external trade of, the United Kingdom, 1876-1911 p. 75 Population, tables ----- p. 76-86 Population and vital statistics and estimates of future popvdations ----- p. 69-75 Relationship between emigration from, or immigra- te, a countiy, and general prosperity there p. 64-6 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 117 INDEX OF SlBJECrS. Aberdeen Line, Thompson, Geo., & Co., Ltd., mail service, Crabb - - - . . p, 22, q. .5.59 Agricultural labour in England, state of, Snow p. 66-7 All-Red Mail Route, see under Mails. Anglo-American Telegraph Company, see under Cables. Atlantic Cables, see under Cables. Australia : see also Australasia. Attitude re Suez Canal tolls - - - - p. 104 Cables, see that title. Cotton Cultivation : Experimental work, suggestion and offer Ijy British Cotton Growing Association ji. 112-3 Ginnuig and baling should be under Government control - - - - - - - p. 112 Letters of British Cotton Growing Association re, 1913, and reply - - - P- 111-5 Seed supply should be entirely in hands of Govern- ment p. 112 Ty|)es, suggestions re ■ - - - p. 112 Exports from United Kingdom, more closely associ- ated with emigration from United Kingdom than are imports. Snow - - - - - p. 64 Exports from United Kingdom, net migration from United Kingdom and imports into United Kingdom, 1878-1910, Snow - p. 61-2, p. 63 High Commissioner's Office, letter from Royal Com- mission, 1913, re British Cotton Growing Associa- tion's oft'er to - - - - - - p. 11-5 Immigration : Consuming power per head rises when immigra- tion active and is low when immigration slack. Snoiv p. 69 CoiTelation with marriage rate. Snow - p. 65 CoiTelation with prosperity. Snow - - p. 66 Production and consumption increased during period of active immigration, but no proof of direct connection, Snow ■ - - • P- 59 Prodviction per head believed to incrrase with. Snow p. 69 from United Kingdom : Actual migration and migration smoothed, 1904-1911, Snow - - - - p. 61 Correlations between fluctuations in, and exports and imports, Snotc - - p. 62-3, p. 64 Index of consumption, of depositors, of average amount of depiosits. of deposit per head of popula- tion, and average net immigration, 1903-7 to 1911. Snow p. 68 Lower freight rates from Continent than from United Kingdom p. 110, p. Ill Mails, see that title. Melbourne, Port Phillip Heads, deepening of en- trance, Pirrie • • - ■ ■ - p. 99 Population : Birth, death, immigration and total increase rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snow - p. 78 Births, deaths, and net immigration in decennial periods from 1861, Snoiv - ■ - p. 77 Birth-rate of certain populations iu 1911, according to birthplace. Snow . - . . p. 83 Census populations under and over 15, since 1861, Snow P- 76 Death-rate, Snow ■ ■ - - - P- '2 Death-rate of natives and immigrant populations, Swow. - - - - -. - . P- ''2-i Excess of unmarried males over unmarried females in age-groups, 1901, 1911, Snow ■ - p. 81 Excess of unmarried males, 1901, 1911, Snow p. 71 Fertility of native and immigrant population, Snow p. 72 Fertility rates, Shou' - - - - - p. lO Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, iS«0M'- - - - p._79 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation of population of various countries in 1921, Snow p. 84 E 20830 Australia — contin ued. Population — continued. Moi-tality, 1911, according to birthplace. Snow p. 83 Mortality, 1911, according to length of residence. Snow - - • - - - - p. 84 Number of births per man-iage in previous year, 1861-1911, Snow p. 79 Number of mamed males and females to evei-y total 100 males and 100 females in age groups 1901, 1911, Snow p. 80 Number of men and women between certain age limits according to birthplace, 1911. and births to each group. Snow - ■ - - p. 72 Percentage increase in intercensal periods since 1861, Snow p. 77 Population in 1921. estimate of, Snow ■ p. 85 Population in 1931, estimate of. Snow - p. 86 Pi'oportion of married people. Snow - - p. 70 Proportion of total, in age-groups, 1911, Snow p. 72 Proportion of total, under 15, 1861-1911, Snow p. 77 Population, production, and production per head, 1906-11, Snow p. 68 Preferential duty, amended provisions for wire goods recommended - - - - - - p. Ill Shipping, see under Shipping. Australasia : Average exports from, and imports to. United Kingdom, 1878-1911. Snow - - - p. 63 Immigration from United Kingdom, exports from United Kingdom, and imports to:United Kingdom, 1876-1911, Snow - - -' - - p. 75 Population : Fertility rate. Snow ■ - ■ - - p. 70 Rate of increase, diminishing, Snoto - - p. 70 Steamship services, importance of acceleration, and suggestions p. 105 White population, imports from and exports to. United Kingdom per head. 1891. 1901, 1911, Snow p. 60 Barrau, Sir John. M.P., reference - - - p. 98 Bethell, Gwyn. and Company, London line, mail ser- vice, Crabb - - - - - , - p. 22 Bombay, lower freight i-ates to, from Hambvu-g than from Loudon - - - - - - p. 110 British Cotton Growing Association, letters to Royal Commission, 1913, re cotton cultivation in Australia, and offer of assistance, and reply - - p. 111-5 British Imperial Council of Commerce, see Imperial Coimcil of Commerce. British North America, see Canada. Cables : Accuracy and speed more important to business men than cost, Pender, q. 1059-60, q. 1061 ; Hibberdine, q. 1060-1. All-British cable communication, memorandum of Imperial Council of Commerce - - p. 97-9 All-British chain, need for, estimated cost, &c. p. 106-7 Anglo-American Telegraph Company : Damage to and breakage of cables - p. 95-6 Dividends, Goddard - - - q- 777-9, q. 781 Position of p. 93 Atlantic .- see also Commercial Cable Company, and Western Union Company below. British conti-ol, extent of - - - - p. 98 Codes, artificial, use of, and difficulty re trans- mission -...-. p. 94-5 Competition and impossibility of combination to raise rates, Crabb - - ■ - p. 12, q. 244 Control by Imperial Government - - p. 12 Foreign control - - - p. 106, p. 107 Q 118 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION CaWeS — continued. Atlantic — continued. Length and earning capacity compared with cable between Gi-eat Britain and France ■ Liability to damage and breakage Number, Goddard . . ■ ■ Operating expenses, increase Post Office control, extent of, Crabb p. 94 p. 95-6 q. 716-8 - p. 94 q. 241-2, q. 290-2 Question of wii-eless development in connection with P- 98-9 Rates : by Both groups generally the same, with excep- tion of press rates, Crabh - - q. 334r-b Reduction : Effect on traffic and revenue, Crahb, q. 261, q. 341-6 ; Primrose, q. 573. Increase in ti-affic from Pacific would not enable. Goddard - - q. 715, q. 804-13 1911, 1912, 1913 p. 94 Question as to likelihood of, in futm-e, Crabb, q. 245 ; Primrose, q. 705-9. Question of effect of, on Anglo-American Telegraph Company and Direct United States Cable Company if lease by Westeni Union declared illegal - - ■ p. 93 Question of further, Goddard q. 715, q. 760-2 Commercial Cable Company - p. 93-7 Threat by English and Canadian Postmasters Greneral of State-owned cable - - p. 94 6rf. a word at one time and subsequent increase, Goddard q. 763-70 no Understanding between i-ival combinations known of. Crabb - - - - q. 288-9 Speed and acciuacy of service, Postmaster- General quoted re, 1911 p. 96 Terminals of 13 cables on British tei-ritory, and possibility of occupation in case of emergency. Traffic to and from Austi-alia divided evenly between Commei-cial Company and Westeni Union Company, Goddard - - q. 821-4 Week-end : Arrangement for earlier deliveries at terminal ends, might be possible in future. Goddard q. 715, q. 739-42, q. 851 Delivered as received. Hibberdine - q. 1047 Atlantic, State-owned : Administi-ation question, Crabb - - q. 357-8 Austi-alasian traffic would not be supplemented by adequate amount of North American, Crabb p. 11, q. 239, q. 29:3-5, q. 328-31 existing Cables would not be affected. Goddard q. 815-6 from Commercial point of view, not justified, Crabb P- H from Commercial point of view, not wanted and would not 1)6 remunerative, Primrose q. 1)58-9 estimated Cost P- 98 estimated Deficit, Crabb, p. 11, q. 238, q. 296-300, q. 329, q. 353-6, q. 380-1 ; Primrose, q. 692-8. Duplicate cable, question of - - - P- ''8 Greneral Post Office memoi-andum in reply to arguments for - - - - - p. 12 Intemiptions more frequent in Atlantic than in Pacific, and double cable would be necessary, Crabb p. 12, q. 349-50 Memorandum of Imperial Council of Commerce re p. 97-9 Opposition by Post Office, reasons, Crabb q. 347-52 Possibility of wireless development an additional aa-gument against, Crabb p. 12, q. 347, 379 Postmaster-Greneral quoted re. 1911 - - p. 96 Report of Inter-Departmental Committee on Cable Communication, 1902 - - - - p. 95 Revenue that would be brought to, by Pacific cable traffic, and estimated cost. Crabb p. 11, q. 238 no Satisfactory evidence that reduction in rate would result in expansion of traffic to increase net revenue. Crabb- - - - - p. 11 would Use taxpayers' money to caiTy on business at a loss - - - - - - p. 95 Australian : Atlantic jiortion of i-ate, and comparison with p. 93-4 Cables — -continued. Australian — continued. Daily cable letters, impossibility of, Hibberdine q 939-41 Deferred messages, see that title below. Eastern and Eastern Extension and Australasia and China Telegraph Cos.. see that title below. Numbei-s of words exchanged between Australasia and Europe and America by Pacific and Eastern routes at different rates, Primrose, 1886-1912 p. 29 Pacific : Board, amount received fey, considered fair in proportion to amount received by Atlantic companies, Crabb - - - - q- 301-3 Colonial Office assiu-ance to Eastern Telegi'aph Co. that cable was to be worked on com- mercial lines and at remunerative rates, Crabb, p. 11, q. 229-32; Primrose, q. 597. Commimicatiou with Sydney " Sun " re press tariff. Primrose - - - - q- 614 Co-opei-ation with Eastern Company, see under Eastern and Eastern Extension. &.c„ beloic. Created to furnish alternative route to meet desire for lower cable rates, Crabb q. 226-32 Distribution of traffic between Westeni Union and Commercial Cable Company. Primrose q. 704 no increased Facilities recommended at present, but might be possible in future, Primrose q. 603 Increase of ti-affic, question as to need for increase of staff, Primrose - - q. 626-9, q. 665-7, q. 710-3 Increased ti-affic gi-eater on American business than on Eui-opean, Primrose - - q. 697 Loss decreasing - - - - - p. 95 Maximum capacity and present t!*affic and amount to which load factor could be reason- ably increased, and opinion re remunerative rate. Primrose - q. 586-94, q. 635-8, q. 672-81 Object of. Primrose - - - q. 600-1 Powei-8 re fixing of rates, Crabh - - q. 359 Rates : see also Rates below. Policy re. Primrose - - - q. 597-9 Reduction, fm-ther. would result in loss of revenue. Primrose - - - q. 630-4 use of Wireless for messages across Canada not taken up actively yet, but development will be watched. Primrose - - q. 668-71 Night cable letters : Impi-acticability of, Primrose • - q. 602 Suggestion. Goddard - - q. 715, q. 743-6 Particulars re i-ates and ti-affic. showing that reductions not miide up for by increased traffic. Primrose ----- q. 568-72 Press traffic, increase, Hibberdine - q. 1075-8 Rates : between Austi-alia and San Fi-ancisco same as between Australia and Vancouver, Primrose q. 615 Comparison of, by Eastern and Pacific com- panies, Pender, q. 966 ; Hibberdine, q. 966-9. to Germany and Fi-ance, Primrose - q. 615 Press : Reduction aud effect on traffic, 1901-1913, Pritnrose - q. 573-7, q. 685-8, q. 616-23 not Remunerative, but work would be taken to certain extent from point of view of public policy. Primrose - - q. 680-4 Reduction : Demand not justified, Commercial Cable Com- pany ..... p. 96-7 to 4s., 1880. and subsequent increase to 4s. 9d., explanation. Primrose - - - q. 568 Great increase of traffic doubted. Primrose q. 655-7. q. 661-4, q. 688-90 would te Possible with working agreement between Eastern and Pacific Companies. Pender q. 960-2 no Restriction on business from present full rates, and traffic would not be much in- creased by reduction. Primrose q. 580-1 Terminal charge, reduction, reduction in rates would result, Crabb - - - q. 314-5 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 110 Cables — continued. Adstraxian — continued. Statement showing four weeks, 1912-3, ordinary and deferred ordinary international traffic classi- fied into private and business, Primrose q. 578-9 Terminal charge, reduction, suggestion by Post- master General, 1911 - - - -p. !)(; Week-end messages, see that title below. Cable Letters, see Week-end messages below. Capacity of short cable greater in proportion, Goddard q. 825-9 Charge by letter or nimiber of letters, question of, Goddard, q. 794-7, q, 847-9 ; Pender, q. 1145-6. Codes : Development in, resulting in material reduction of i-ate, though nominal rate unaltered, Crubb p. 11, q. 246 Difficulty of, Goddard - - q. 715, q. 749 Economy of words by, Crabb, q. 316-7 ; Goddard, q. 750-3, q. 839-41, q. 859-61 ; Pender, q. 911-2 ; Hibberdine. q. 912. Espenditui-e by merchants on preparation, Hibber- dine - - • - - - - q. 947 Commercial Cable Company: Expenditm-e on maintenance and repairs p. 95, p. 96 Landing licence, date of expiry, Crabb - p. 11 Memorandum ..... p. 93-7 Defereed : Code not advocated, Hibberdine - - q. 946 Exclusion of code messages, justification, Crabb p. 11, q. 246 Increase in traffic. Primrose - - q. 699-700 Natui-e of business. Primrose - - - q. 582 Provision of code for, by Post Office, difficulties, q. 249-53 Rates, Pender - . - . - - q. 865 Reasons for Pacific cable carrying more than Eastern, Peudei q. 926-7 Reduction of rates : not Anticipated for some time, but question one for Pacific Cable Board, Crubb - - p. 11 Business would be transferred from ordinary category and consequent loss. Primrose q. 582-5 Registered address can be used, Crabb q. 336-7 Steps taken by Post Office to inform public of facilities, Crabb - . - ■ ([■ 266-70 Success of, Crabb - - q. 263-5, q. 285-7 Use of dictionary code words, impracticability of, Crabb, p. 11, q. 248 ; Pender, q. 866, q. 944-7. Used by commercial houses aud wealthier classes, not by poor man, for whom instituted - p. 97 Direct United States Cable Company, position of, Goddard, q. 780 ; p. 93. East Coast of Africa, subsidies, Crabb - ■ q. 234 Eastern and Eastern Extension and Austral- asia AND China Telegraph Companies : Agreement with Government of New South Wales re opening of offices. Primrose - - q. 595 American traffic now carried by Pacific Company, Hibberdine ..... q. 1115-6 Australian traffic : 1912, Hibberdine - - . - q. 974-5 Routes, Hibberdine ■ - - q. 889-99 Capacity, Pender, q. 865 ; Hibberdine. q. 900-10. Capacity, and possibility of taking increased traffic, Hibberdine - - - - q. 976-8 willing to Co-operate with Pacific Cable Board if fair an-angements arrived at, Pender - q. 865 Co-operation with Pacific Company : Failure to agree as to terms. Pender q. 991-2, q. 1096-8. q. 1099, q. 1100 Feeling in Australia against, Hibberdine q. 992 former Negotiations re. and advantages to be derived. Primrose - - . . 595-6 Cost of canvassing, Hibberdine • - q. 1123 Cost of laying cables, Pender, q. 867-70. q. 872-5, q. 969-71, q. 1141-4; Hibberdine, q. 870-2. Day cable letters to Far East cannot be con- templated, Pender - - - . q. ggg Defen-ed messages : Dictionary code words, would be impracticalde, and objections to, Pender • q. 866, q. 944-7 Rates, Pender q. 865 Dividend and capital, Pender - . q. 1133-6 E 20830 Cables — continued. Eastern and Eastern Extension and Austral- asia AND China Telegraph (Jompanies — continued. Duplication and triplication by different routes, Pender q. 876. q. 1140 Empire Press Sen'ice, Hibberdine. q. 1078. q. 1 128- 30 ; Pender, q. 1130. Fao route (Turkish), particulai-s re. rates and traffic, Pender, q. 866; Hibberdine, q. 1035-41. 4 cables as compared with 1 of Pacific Company, Hibberdine - - - . - - q. 968 constant Improvements in instruments, &c., and expenditure, Pender - - - q. 865-6 Increase of speed, Pender - - - q- 1062-5 Letter to Australian and South African Govern- ments re week-end messages, Hibberdine q. 878-9 no Pooling agreement with Pacific Cable Board except as regards rates. Hibberdine ■ q. l(J48-9 Position of, compared with Atlantic Companies and Pacific Cable Board. Pender, q. S65, (j, 9U9-10 Press rates between South Africa and Australia, Hibberdine ..... q. 1079 Press rates (Africa, India, Egypt), reductions and effect on traffic, Hibberdine - q. 1075 Press rates, further reduction inijiracticable, Pender - - - - ■ - - q. 865 Press sei-vice, arrangement with Renter's Tele- gram Company, Pender - - - - q. 865 Press traffic, Hibberdine - q. 980-1. q. 1125-7 Rates : History of, Hibberdine - - - q. 937 Plain language, increase of social traffic would not result from reduction, Pender q. 914-6 Policy re, Pender q. 865 Reductions, Pender .... q. 865 not Reduced since 1902 owing to laying of Pacific cable. Pender, q. 936-7, q. 960, q. 1066, q. 1112-4, q. 1117-22 ; Hibberdine. q. 936, q. 1052-3, q. 111.5-6. Standard revenue agreements, Pender, q. 865, q. 956-60, 964, q. 965, q. 1103-5 ; Hibberdine, q. 964, q. 1082-3. Reserve funds, Pender, q. 867, q. 1101-2. ((. 1134; Hibberdine. q. 1102. Revenue, 1909 and 1912, Hibberdine ■ q. li)84-5 Social code, but facilities little used. Hibberdine. q. 948-54, q. 1068-9, q. 1073-4; Pender, q. 1067-8, 1070-2. to South Africa, particulars re rates and traffic, Hibberdine - - - - - q- 1027-34 Week.end messages, see that title below. Far East traffic, lines can-ying, Pender, q. Illi8-1(», q. 1111 ; Hibberdine, q. 1110. Gei-mau- Atlantic Co., Pe»der - - q. 1137 constant Improvements in instruments and apparatus, Goddard q. 758-9 Increased traffic mainly in direction of deferred telegrams and cable letters, Crabb - - q. 262 India : Deferred, nature of business, Hibberdine - q. 923 Reductions of rates, effect on traffic, Crabb q. 261 North America, Post Office bound till 11*20 to give to Anglo-American Company all telegrams bearing no indicatiim of route, and explanation, Crabb p. 11. q. 279-83 Press rates, reduction, demand unreasonaWe- p. 97 Rates : Cheap, importance of .... p. 106 Reduction : Initiative lies with Pacific Cable Board, Crabb p. 11-2 Question as to increase of traffic as result, Crabb q. 313-4 Subsidies not given hitherto with ^ew solely to, with one exception. Crabb p. 11, q. 233-6 Sending of messages from England to New York and from New York back to Continent in order to get speedy service - - - - - p. 97 South Africa : Defen-ed, nature of business, Hibberdine ■ q. 922 Reductions of rates and effect on traffic and revenue, Crabb, q. 261, q. 271-8, q. 304-12; Pender, q. 866. R 120 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION : Cables — contimi ed. South Africa — ^continued. Treasury minute re proposals re subsidies, Crahh q. 2;U Speed of transmissiou quicker iu short cables and with larger core, Ribberdine - - q. 1054-8 Week-end messages : Advantages considered very real. Ooddard q. 842-t! Delivery on Monday, no practical difficulty, Hibb'crdine - - - - - q. 1095 Delivery by telegram, objection. Primrose q, 604 Delivery on Tuesday : Objection to insistence on, Pender, q. 928-9, q, 1023-5 ; Ribberdine. 1020. Reason, Pender, q. 995. q. lH-Ki; Hibberdine. q. 1046. Differences of opinion between Eastern Conipauies and Pacific Cable Board, Pender q. 882-l{ ; Hib- berdi)ie, q. 883. Eai'lier delivery advocated, Pender - - q. 866 Exclusion of code messages, justification, Crabb p. 11 Poiu- classes of, Hibberdine - - - q. 884 Inclusive charge for telegTaphiug. would be matter for Pacific Cable Board, Goddnrd - - q. 858 Increase in traffic, Primrose - - q. 699-700 Nature of business. Ribberdine - q. 822, q, 928, q,979 Object of. Primrose - - - - p. 605 Proposals re, Ribberdine - q. 1000-17. q. 1011, q. 1015, q. 1021-2, q. 1087-94 Rates : Reduction to 6d. per wor.l, no objection by Post Office, but a matter fcr Pacific Cable Board, Crabb - - - - q. 258-60 Reduction question. Crabb, p. 11 ; Primrose, q. 582 ; Ooddard, q. 852-7. Reduction of minimum number of words : Objection, Pender - - q. 918, q. 604-13 to 12, Post Office attitude. Crahh - q. 254-5 to 20 : Advocated, but not below, Ribberdine. q. 878. q. 930-5 Agreed to by Pacific Cable Board in principle. but single rate still under discussion. Crabb p. 11 Registered addi-ess : Can only be used if message delivered by telegram, Crabb ■ - - ■ I- 338-40 Refusal of, reason, Ribberdine - - q. 942 not very Remunerative, Primrose - q. 701-3 Single rate for, to include telegraphic transmission at both ends desired by Post Office, Crabb q. 255-6. q. 321, q. 324-7 Steps taken by Post Ofiice to infoi-m public of facilities. Crabb - ■ - q. 266-70, q. 318 Success of, Crabb - - - - q. 263-5 Telegraphing : Desired, Hibberdine - - - q. 885-7 Government consent waited for, Hibberdine. q. 1018-20 Traffic per week, Pacific Cable, Primrose - q. 580 West India and Panama Company, particulars re subsidy to for reduction of rates, Crabb q. 234-6 Westben Union Compant: Accounts, cable system not separated in, Goddard q, 771-0 Code messages, about 80 per cent, of total, Goddard q. 836-7 Codes allowed only on full rate service, Goddard q. 754-7 Code supplied by, Ooddard - - q, 798-800 Deferred messages, advantages considered very real, Goddard - - - - q. 842-6 Em-opean representative, see Goddard, Stanley J. q. 714-801 if further Facilities, full-paid traffic may be depleted, but hopes of making up, Goddard q. 802-3 large Increase of traffic, question as to remunera- tiveness, Goddard ■ ■ - I- 782-93 Large increase of Australian traffic, question of i-ate at which ti-affic could be taken. Goddard q. 726-38, q. 747, q. 782-3 Cables — continued. Westekn Union Company — continued. Lease of Anglo-American Telegraph Co. and Direct United States Cable Companies by. legality question - - - - - P- 98 Plain cables sent as handed in. and cjuestion of sending in code, Goddard - - q. 831-3 Traffic, proportion of traffic for Pacific Cable Board to total, Ooddard - - q. 804-5 large Unused capacity and possibility of handling increase of traffic, Goddard q. 715, q. 719-27 Wireless competition, question of, Crabb - q. 347, q. 374-9 ; p. 107 Canada : All-Red Mail Route, see under Mails. Average exports from, and imports to. United Kingdom, 1870-1911, Sftoif - - - p. 63 Direct mail service and result - - - P- 88 Emigration to, fkom United Kingdom : some cases of Misdescription, and action of trade unions. Park - • - ■ - q. 27-30 Correlations between fluctuations in. and exports and imports. Snow - - p. 02-3 ; p. 64 Exports fiom United Kingdom, and imports to United Kingdom, 1876-1911, Snow ■ p. 75 Exports from United Kingdom more closely associated with, than are imports. Snow - p 64 Exports from United Kingdom, net emigration from United Kingdom, and imports into United Kingdom. 1876-1911, Snow - - p. 61-2, p, 03 Freight rates : Extracts from newspapers illustrating dissatisfac- tion with conditions - - - - p. 108 Extracts from reports of H.M. Trade Commis- missioners re high rates - - p. 109-10 Importance of ----- p, 110 Typical increases of - - - - p. 110 Mails, see that title. Movement to and from United States, 1911-12, 1910-11, 1909-10, Snow - - - - p. 69 Population : Birth, death, immigration, and total increase rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snow p. 78 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation of population of various countries in 1921, Snow p. 84 Percentage increase in intercensal periods since, 1801, Snow p. 77 Population estimated in 1921, Snow - p. 85 Populations estimated in 1931, Snow - p. 86 Proportion of total, under 15, 1861-1911. Snow p. 77 Rate of increase of males and females. Snow p. 69 Rate of increase since 1901, Snow - - p, 70 Production statistics. Snow - - - p. 69 Shipping traffic, inward control by conference p. 103 White population, imports from, and exports to. United Kingdom per head, 1891, 1901, 1911, Snow p. 60 Canadian and Australasian Line, mail service, Crabb p, 21 Commercial Cable Company, see under Cables. Ciiuard Steamship Co. : Amalgamation with Anchor Line - - p. 107 Mail contract, Crabb p. 20 Du-ect United States Cable Company, see under Cables. Elder, Dempster, & Co., Ltd., amalgamation - p, 107-8 Elders and Fytfes, Ltd., steamship sei-vice to West Indies p. 106 Electrical material, lower freight rates from Hamburg to Bombay and Sydney than from London - p. IIU Emigration : Agents : Acting for competing routes, no objection made to. Park q. 72-5 Appointment : Control by emigration officer, extent. Park q. 2, q. 9-10, q. 11-3, q. 31-2 Reasons for disallowing, Park - q. 11-2, q. 31, q. 65 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 121 Emigration — continued. Agents — continued. several Aiipointments held by one man, Parh q. 3-5, q. 82-1. Clerks iu sliipping offices required to be appointed as, if concerned in sale of steerage passages. Farh q. 2-3 not Considered as persons responsible for giving information, Parh - - - - q. 123-7 Exaggerated descriptions by, difficulty of pre- venting. Park q. 77 Foreign, fair number of, Parh - - - q. 109 Fraud : Case of, Parh . . - . q. 16-8 Power of emigration officer in case of, Parh q. 16 Functions, Parh .... q. 14-5 Information about different countries must neces- sarily be small. Parh ■ - - q. 19, q. 76 Interests purely pecuniary, Parh - q. 110-5 Men sent round by big shipping companies to look up, Parh . . . . q. 24-6 Many, appointed by several of principal lines, Parh q.6 Misrepresentation, brokers involved in case of, Parh q. 36-7 approximate Number, Parh - ■ - q. 3 Number employed by one broker, Parh - q. 33 have no Oljligations to the public, Parh q. 138-9 Possibility of advising emigration to counti-y from which greatest i)rofit received personally, Pa7-h q. 20 Question whether agents work at labour exchanges or with uneuiplovment insurance local agent. Parh - - " - - q. 66-71, q. 111-2 System not considered unsatisfactory. Park q. 23^4, q. 82-90, q. 116-39 Whole-time, question as to number, Parh ■ q. 6 Work done where office or place of business is, Parh q. 64 Association Ijetween external trade and, Snow p. 61^ Contracts given by agents and brokers in which ship's name and date of sailing not specified, and steps taken in case of. Parh - - q. 97-108 Correlation with marriage rate. Snow - - p. 65 Effect on i^roduction and consumption, little evidence. Snow p. 59 to Empire rather than to foi-eign countries, question of benefit to trade, Snow - - p. 59, p. 60-1 an Important aid to commercial and industrial welfai-e, Snou^ ----- p. 59-60 Increase in consuming and producing power of body of emigrants when moved to Colonies, question of statistical data. Snoiv . . - p. 67-9 1876-1911, and external trade, statistics, Snoiv p. 75 Lectm'ers sent round with lantern views by Shipping Companies, Parh - - - - - q. 26 Misdescription ; a few Cases of emigrants being induced to take passages to Canada owing to, Parh q. 27-30 Procedure in case of, but difficulty, Parh q. 91-6 Officer for London district : District under, P^i/rh Functions, Parh q. 53-6 q, 57-9 Passage Brokers : Agents, see that title above. Aliens, naturalisation question, Parh q. 60-1 Appointment, a foi-m, subject to money guarantee, Parh - - - - - - q. 129-33 in Connection with large lines to Dominions, are men of good standing, and careful to appoint trustworthy agents, Parh - q. 44-5, q. 134-6 Control by Emigi-ation officer, extent, Parh q. 6-9 Dealing with foreigners, men of less good standing 11 nd cases of refusal to renew licences for period. Parh q. 45-52 Guarantee, nature of offences involving forfeiture of, Parh q. 3.5 Interests purely pecuniary, Parh - q. 110-5 Licences : Control over grant of, Pa/rk - - - q. 2 Forfeiture of bond would involve forfeiture of, Parh q. 38 Emigration — continued. Passage Brokers — continued. Licences — continued. Grant by justices of the peace, and no appeal from, and no previous inquiry made, Parh q. .39-41, q. 78-81 Number licensed, Parh - - - - q. 2 Provisions of Merchant Shipping Act, 1894. section 343 re, Parh - - ■ - q. 10 Renewal, case of refusal. Park - - q. 43 Surety, system, Parh - - - - q. 2 Licensing authorities. Park - - - q. 10 have no Obligations to the public. Parh q. 138-9 Position of, Parh q- 2 Relationship to general prosperity of country, question of, Snow ... - p. 64-6 Relationship with waves and depressions of trade, Sno^v - - - - - - - p. 59 Snii)lus of suitable unman-ied females available for, small. Snow - ■ • P- 60, p. 71, p. 72 Voyage : Abuses during : Complaint received from Melbourne as to want of management of ship, Parh - q. 193—4 no Particular recent case, Parh - - q. 192 Procedure in case of, Parh - - q. 186-91 Berthing accommodation : Male passengers, an-angements. Park - q. 159 Manied quarters provided in nearly all ships. Park q. 163 Privacy, minimum laid down liy regulations exceeded, Parh - - - - - q. 164 Separation of sexes : An'angements, Parh ■ - - q- 159-63 Conditions fairly satisfactory, and question of improvement. Park ■ - - q. 199-201 bv Division or pai-tial bulkhead, suggestion. 'Park q. 163 Improvement a question of money, Park q. 208-12 by Placing at different ends of ship com- pulsorily, not advocated, Park - - q. 163 Question of cost of altei-ation in order to provide for. Park - - - q. 181-5 Tendency on part of sliipowners to meet Board of Trade requu-ements, and to go beyond. Park ■ ■ - - - ij. 20 Separate deck for single women would be impossible in some ships. Park ■ ■ q. 163 Special accommodation usually reserved for assisted and nominated emigrants, particu- larly single women to Australasian States or New Zealand, Pnc/i; - - - q.l63 Emigrants not kept under medical supervision for any time before sailing, and such supeiwision would be useless as emigrants allowed on shore at different places. Pari - - q. 174-9 Hospital accommodation : Adequate for shorter voyages, but nught be slightly increased for longer. Park q. 140, q. 157, q. 170-3 Conditions fairly satisfactoiy and question of improvement. Park - q. 199-201. q. 208-12 Improvement. Parh - - - - q. 164 Might in some ships be in bettei; position, but difficidties of alteration. Park ■ q. 201-4 Practically no difference in amount of space for long or short voyage, and question of need for. Park q. 140 Tendency on part of shipowners to meet Board of Trade and to go beyond requirements. Park q. 207 Infectious diseases : no AiTangements made for. but no difficulty experienced, Park - - - q. 153-8 Cases mainlv on Australian voyages. Park q. 149-52 Record of, nature, &c.. Parh - - q. 140-8 Small-pox recently taken to Australia by people embarking in Ceylon, &c.. Park - ■ q. 179 Statistics, Park p. 149 Matrons, Parh - <i. 164-5, q. 167-9, q. 195-8 no Sailing vessels, Parh • - - - q. 180 K 2 12: POMIN'IONS RtlVAI. COMMISSION : E mig ration — couthnied. YoYAOE — coiittnued. Temporaiy stewards working passage oxit, Pari; q. 166 Stewards and cooks, powers of emigration officers re. Park q. 216-20 Empire Development Board : Advantaj^e t" ]»? derived from, in control of shipping mattei-s - - - - - - - p. 104 proposed Fiuietions - - - - p. 103-5 Meinoraiiduni by the Empii-e Trade and Industry Committee of the Roval Colonial Institiite p. 101-11 England and Wales : Emigration, relationship to prosperity, SHO^p p. 6li External trade not directly increased by emigi-ation. Snow - - - - - - - p. 59 POPTJLATION : 1861-81, under 15 increased more rapidly than over 15, Snmv - - ■ - - p. 69 since 1881, over 15 increased more rapidly than under 15. Snow - - - - - p. 69 Births, deaths, and net emigration from in decennial periods from 1861, Snou- ■ - p. 77 Births, deaths, emigration, and total increase rates in decennial periods from 1861. S»o«'p. 78 Census populations iinder and over 15 since 1861, Snow ■ - - - - - - p. 76 Death-i-ates of certain portions. 1911. and com- parison with Australia. Snow - - - p. 73 Excess of unman-ied females (;>ver unmanned males in age-groups, 1901. 1911. Siwic ■ p. 81 Fertility rates. Snow - - - - - p. 70 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911. S»W(c - - - p. 78 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation of population in 1921. Snoii- - - - p. 84 Number of births per marriage in previous year, 1861-1911, Snow p. 79 Number of married males and females to every total 100 males and lOO females in age-groups 1901. 1911, Snow p. 80 Percentage increase in intercensal pei'iods since 1861. Snoic - - - - - - p. 77 Population, estimate of, in 1921, Siiotc - p. 85 Population, estimate of, in 19.31, Snow - p. 86 Proportion of married people. Snow - - p. 70 Proportion of total population in age-groups, 1911, Snow p. 72 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861-1911, Snotv - - - - - - - p. 76 Rate of increase, diminishing, Snoir - - p. 70 Unmarried females, comparison with unmarried men, 1911. Snow • - - ■ - p. 70 European news, question of extent to which Australia interested in, Pender, q. 1080 ; Hibberdine, q. 1080. Fi-ance, lower rates on linen to New Tork tlian from Belfast p. 110 French Atlantic Telegraph Co., Pender ■ q. 1137 Furuess, Withy, & Co.. Ltd., amalgamation with other lines - - - - - - - - p. 108 German Atlantic Telegraph Co., Pender - q. 1137 Germany, lower freight rates from, to Bombay and Sydney' than from Loudon - - - - p. llo Harbonrs . Depth ; Desirable to meet requirements of developments of naval construction dm-iug next 20 or 30 years. Biles ■ - - - " - - - p. 93 Increase adds to value more than in proportion to cube of depth, Pirrie - - - - p. 100 Increase as a rule more important than provision of improved facilities, but question a local one, Pirrie p. 100 Minimum worldng depth of at least 40 feet now desirable, and 45 feet should be recommended. Pirrie p. 99 Question as to lighterage facilities as substitute for deepened quay accommodation. Biles - - p. 92 Holt, A., & Co., mail service, Crabb - - p. 23 Immigi-ation, relationship to general prosperity of a countiy, question of. Snow - . - p. 64-6 Impeiial Conncil of Commerce : Memorandum ;•<■ All British Cable Ctimmunication p. 97-9 Memorandum on All-Red Mail route - p. 87-8 Imperial Direct Seiwice with Jamaica, and i-estoration suggested - - - - - - - p. 106 India, cables, see tluif title. International Mercantile Mariue Co., lines forming p. 102, p. 107 International Telegraphic Convention: Code recommended by. Hibberdine q. 947, q. 986 Fixing of rates at meetings of. and regulations of, re alteration of tariffs. Ac, Hibberdine , q. 983-90 Parties to, Hibberdine - - - - - q. 982 Ireland : Emigration, relationship to prosperity. Snow - p. 66 Population : Birth, death, emigration, and total decrease rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snow p. 78 Birth, death, and net emigi-ation in decennial periods from 1861, Snoio - - - p. 77 Census populations under and over 15, since 1861, Snow - - - - - - - p. 76 Excess of immarried males. Snow - - p. 70 Excess of unman-ied males over unmanned females in age-groups 1901, 1911. Snow - - p. 81 Fertility rates. Snow p. 70 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45. 1861-1911, Snow - - - - p. 78 Limiting rates of increase or decrease assumed for estimatiim of population in 1921. Snow p. 84 Loss during last 50 yeara proportionately greater at ages under 15, Snow - - - - p. 69 Low proportion of man-ied people, Snow - p. 70 Number of births per marriage in jirevions year, 1861-1911, Snow p. 79 Number of married males and females to every total 100 males and 100 females in age-groups 1901. 1911. Snow p. 80 Percentage decrease in intercensal periods since 1861. Snoiv p. 77 Population, estimate of, in 1921. Snow - p. 85 Population, estimate of, in 1931. Snoiv - p. 86 Proportion of total population undor 15. 1861- 1911, Snou p. 77 Proportion of total population in age-groups, 1911. Snow ' p. 72 Lamport and Holt. Ltd., amalgamation with another Company ■ - - - - - - p. 108 Linen goods, lower rates from continental than United Kingdom ports - - - - - - p. 110 Mails: All-Red Route : Advantages - - - - - - p. 88 Black.sod Bay scheme - - - p. 87-8 British Imperial Council of Commerce, memo- randum re ■ - - - - p. 87-8 Question as to use of, for Australian mails, Crabb q. 517-20 Resolutioi} of Commercial Congress of the Empire in favour of p. 87 Australasia : Boats sometimes in advance of contract time, Crabb q. 427-8, 526 Cape route : never Considered for letters. Crtdib q. 502-3 Question as to possible advantages and pos- sil)ility of. Crnbb - q. 444-61. q. 470. q. ,-)(Jl-5 Used for small amount of parcels, but impos- sibilitv of using for letter mails. Crnbb q. 411-7 Overland, question of alternative route, Crabb q. 408-10 Regularity of sei-vice, Crabb - - q. 424^9 Service not remunerative and loss to Post Office on. Crabb . . - q. 422-3, q. 480-5 Services, particulars re, Crabb • ■ p. 21-3 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 123 Mails — contitiiied. Australasia — continued. Speed, and comparison with speed of Atlantic services, and question of reason, Crahh q. 486-500, q. 558-9 American, attempt (1877), to maintain outward service by use of fastest steamers available, Crahh p. 20 for Canada, sending of. from Glasgow, Liverpool, and Bristol, inconvenience owing to. Cnihli p. 20 Carriage of, by steamships burning oil, question of, Crabb q. 528-32 Contracts : Admiralty clauses in certain, Grahb - - p. 20 Companies wishing to compete or to tender) for, would have to build new fleets, Crahh q. .387-91 Competition very restricted, Crahh - q. 392-401, q. 466-9 Consultation of Admiralty and Board of Trade during negotiations, Crahh ■ - q. 541-5 Liat)ility as regards losses, Crahh - q. 504-11 Maintenance of regular services during labour troubles. Crahh p. 20 Payment, methods of fixing, Crahh - - p. 20 Procedure and reasons for not setting up Com- mittee suggested by House of Commons Com- mittee on Steamship Services, Crahh p. 21, q. 546 Provisions, Crabb - - - - - P- -'^ Put up for tender, Crabb - - - - q. 516 Question as to effect of new Australian Shipping Act, Crahh q. 549-57 Reason for difference between conti'act sea-speed and full speed of ship, Crabb - - q. 521-5 System, change to use of fastest ships available not desirable. Crabb - ■ ■ - P- 21 Overland, to Brindisi and Taranto, extra cost, but increased speed, Crabb - - - Q- 402-7 Regular service, importance of, Crahh - - p. 20 Siberian route for China and Japan, l)ut use of for Australia not considered, Crahh • q. 431-6 higher Speed and subsidy question, BiUa ■ p. 93 Statutory rate for conveyance, Crahh • q. 383-6, q. 462-5 Suez route, revenue from foreign countries, Crabb q. 476-9 to West Indies, maintenance on ship-letter basis, Crabb p. 20-1 Messageries Maritimes Co., mail service, Crabb - p. 21 MilbiuTi Lina and Anglo- Australasian Steam Naviga- tion Co., Crabb p. 22 New South Wales, legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow • ■ p. 79 Kew Zealand : Correlation between immigration and emigration. Snow - - ■ - - - - p. 66 Emigration : Correlation with bad times. Snow - - p. 66 Correlation with marriage rate. Snow p. 65-6 Freioht rates to : Correspondence with the New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd., and the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., Ltd. - - - - - - P- 100-1 Lower on German and American goods, vi i British ports than on British goods - - - p. 110 Immigration : Consuming power per head rises when immigration active and is low when immigration slack. Snow p. 69 CoiTclation with marriage rate, Snow - p. 65 Correlation with prosperity. Snow - - p. 66 Index of consumption per head, nett immigration, index of marriage rate, of bankruptcy rate, and of volume of liquor consumed per head, 1880-1911, Snow p. 68 Population : Births, deaths, and net immigration in decennial periods from 1861, Snow ■ - - p. 77 Birth, death, immigration, and total increase rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snow p. 78 Birthrate, decline i-apid, 1881-1901, but arrested, Snow p. 76 New Zealand — continued. Population — contin tied. Census population under and over 15 since 1861, Sncnv - - • • - - - p. 76 Death-rate. Snow - ■ - - - p. 72 Excesg of unmarried males over unmarried females in age-groups, 1901, 1911, Snow - - p. 81 Excess of unmarried males, 1901 and 1911, Snow p. 71 Fertility rate. Siwin p. 70 Legitimate births per 1,(J00 married women, aged 1.5-45. 1861-1911. Sfiow - - - - p. 78 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation of population in 1921, Snow - - - p. 84 Number of bii-ths per maiTiage in previous years, 1861-1911. Snow p. 79 Number of married males and females to every total 100 males and 100 females in age-groups, 1901, 1911, Snow p. 80 Percentage increase in intercensal periods since 1861, Snow p. 77 Population, estimate of, in 1921. Snow - p. 85 Population, estimate of, in 1931, Snow - p. 86 Proportion of married people, Snoni - - p. 70 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861- 1911, Snow p. 77 Proportion of total population in age-gi-oups, 1911, Snmv p. 72 Preferential duty, frustrating of, by lower freight rates on foreign goods - - - - p. 110 Production statistics, Snoiv - ■ - - p. 68 New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd. : Correspondence with, 1913, re alleged lower freights on foreign goods - - - - - p. 100 Mail contract, question of inserting clause re no undue preference to foreigners, Crahh q. 638-9 Mail sei-vice. Crahh p. 22 North German Lloyd, mail service, Crabb - p. 21 Ocean Steam Ship Co., mail service, Crabb ■ p. 23 Orient Steam Navigation Co., Ltd. : Correspondence with, re acceleration of service p. 89 Mail service, Crabb .... p. 21-2 Panama Canal : Demand for increased depth of harbours w^ll be increased by, Pirrie - - - - - p. 99 Question of result. Biles - - - - p. 91 Question of result and advantage of proposed Empire Board with regard to - - - - p. 105 Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co., Ltd. : Amalgamation with Blue Anchor Line - - p. 108 Correspondence with, re accelei'ation of service p. 88-9 Mail Conteact : Avoidance of delay at Colombo might be arranged in new conti-act, Crabb - - - q. 527 Condition that no undue preference should be shown to foreigners, question as to method of enforcement, C'rfibfcq. 418-9, q. 538—40, q. 547-8 Losses, statistics. Crabb - - - q. 504-5 Particulars, Crabb - - p. 20, p. 21, q. 521-6 Question re increase of speed in renewal of, Crabb q. 512-5 Mail services, Crabb p. 21 Peninsular and Oriental Branch Line, Crabb ■ p. 21 Piekford and Bliick, Messrs., steamship service between Canada and West Indies - - - - p. 106 Population : Birth, death, emigration, immigration, and total increase or decrease rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snoir p. 78 Births, deaths, and net emigration or immigration in stated countries in decennial periods from 1861, Snoui p. 77 Census populations under and over 15 since 1861, Snow P- 76 1871. 1881, 1891, 1901, 1911, and rate of increase on mean population, per cent., S«ow - - p. 70 Excess in rate of increase of males over females in certain countries. 1901-10, Siww - - p. 69 Excess of unmarried females over unmarried males, in age-groups, 1901, 1911, Snow - - - p. 81 R 3 124 DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION Population — continued. Excess of unmarried males and unmarried females, 1901-1911. Snow p. 71 Excess of unmarried women in certain health i-esorts. 1911, Snow p. ""2 Excess of unmarried women in Loudon, statistics. Snow P- "1-- Fertility rates, Snow ■ - - - • p. 7U estimated Future populations. Snow - p. 74-5 Legitimate births per 1.000 man-ied women, aged 1.5-45, 1861-1911, Snow ■ - - - p. 78 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation of population of various countries in 1921. Snow p. 84 Number of births per man-iage in previous year, 1861-1911, Snou p. 79 Number of married males and females to every total 100 males and 100 females in age-gi-oups. 1901. 1911, Snow p. 80 Numbers of unmarried males and females between certain age-Kmits in Loudon Boroughs, 1911. and indices of social status. Snow - - - p. 82 Numbers of unmarried males and females between 15 and 35 in county boroughs, other urban districts, and rm-al districts. 1911. Snow - - - p. 82 Percentage increase in iuterceusal periods. Snow p. 77 Population, estimate of, in 1921, Snow - - p. 85 Population, estimate of, in 1931, Snow - - p. 86 Proportion of males and females under 15 to total, diminishing. Snow - - - - - p. 69 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861-1911, Snow p. 76 Queensland : Agent-General, letter from Royal Commission to. 1913. re British Cotton Growing Association's ofier p. 115 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15^5, 1861-1911, Snow - - ■ - p. 78 Royal Colonial Institute, letter, July 1913. with supplementary memorandum by Empire Trade and Industry Committee - - - - P- 101-11 Royal Commission on Shipping Rings, 1909, proposals of, and failure - - " - - -p. 101-4 Royal Mail Steam Packet Co., Ltd. : Amalgamation of other companies with West Indies service, Crabb, p. 20 ; p. 105. p. 108 Scotland : Emigration, relationship to prosperity, Snow - p. 66 Population : Births, deaths, and net emigi-atiou in decennial periods from 1861. Snow - - - p. 77 Birth, death, emigration, and total increase rates in decennial periods from 1861, Snoic - p. 78 Census populations under and over 15, since 1861, Snow - - - - - - - p. 76 1861-81. under 15, increased more rapidly than over 15, Snow - - - - - p. 69 since 1881, over 15, increased more rapidly than under 15, Snow p. 69 Excess of unmarried females over unman-ied males in age-groups. 1901, 1911. Snoiv - - p. 81 Fertility rates. Snow - - - - p. 70 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snoto - - - p. 78 Limiting rates of increase assumed for estimation of population in 1921. Snoxv - - - p. 84 Number of births per marrj^ge in previous year, 1861-1911. Snow p. 79 Niunber of married males and females to every total 100 males and 100 female in age-groups. 1901, 1911, Snow p. 80 Percentuge increase in intercensal periods since 1861. Snou- ■ ■ - - - - p. 77 Population, estimate of. in 1921, Snow ■ p. 85 Population, estimate of, in 1931, Snow ■ p. 86 Proportion of toteil population in age-groups, 1911. Snow p. 72 Proportion of total population under 15, 1861- 1911, Snow p. 76 Rate of increase diminishing, Snovj - - p. 70 Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., Ltd. : Con-esponclence with, 1913, re alleged lower freights on foreign goods - - - - p. 100-1 Freight rates for foreign goods same as those charged by local foreign shipowners - - - p. 101 Mail contract, question of inserting clause re no undue preference to foreigners, Crabb q. 538-9 Mail service, Crabb - - - - - p. 23 Shipping : Acceleration of sei-vices, correspondence between Royal Commission and Peninsular and Oriental and Orient Steam Navigation Companies - p. 88-9 to Australia, speed, comparison with speed of Atlantic services, and question of reason, Crabb q. 486-500 Comparative costs of carrying cargo at different speeds, and different lengths of ships, Biles p. 92 Development in size and draught, dependent on harbom- facilities. Pirrie - - - - p. 99 Freight : Alleged lower freights on foreign goods to New Zealand than ou British, correspondence with New Zealand Shipping Co., Ltd., Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co., Ltd. " - - - p. 100-1 Classification, difference in methods, acting as preference to foreign goods - - - p. 104 Fluctuations in mean yearly freight I'ates since 1902 p. 103. p. 109 Lower rates from Continental and American than from United Kingdom ports, and instances p. 103-t, p. 110 Need and method of pubHc control over p. 101-4 on Specified classes of goods should be approved by Empire Development Board - - p. 105 List of principal foreign shipping companies p. 108 Mail services, see under Mails. Meegees : no Benefit apparently derived by producere and consumers - - - - - - p. 103 Inflation of capital due to - - - - p. 103 Monopoly, growth of tendency - - p. 101-3 Recent amalgamations of British shipping lines p. 107-8 Relation between size of vessel and economic capacity as freight carrier. Biles, p. 90-1 ; Pirrie, p. 99. Size, increase, statistics. 1903-4 to 1913— t. Biles p. 90-1 Steam vessels, memorandum ou economic size and speed of. Biles p. 90-3 Suez Canal v. Cape route, Biles - - - p. 91 South Africa : Cables, set' under Cables. Freight agreement p. 102 Shipping monoply - - - - - p. 102 South Australia, legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow ■ - p. 78 Spicer, The Right Hon. Sir Alljert. Bart.. M.P.. refeiTed to, re cheaper cable communication within the Empire p. 95 Suez Canal : Board, representation of British Go\ernmeut- p. 104 V. Cape route, Bihs - - - - - p. 91 Deepening : Demand for increased depth of harbours will be increased by. Pirrie • - - - p. 99 Little advantage would be gained as far as distant dominions concerned. Biles - - - p. 91 Receipts by British Government from - - p. 104 Shares, transfer of revenue now derived by British Government to Empire Board or Fund proposed p. 104 Tolls : Diridend received by British Government should be applied to reduction or refund of, on British shipping - - - - - - p. 104 Grant to British ships out of Empire Fund of allowance on account of, based on goods carried, suggested - - - - - - p. 105 Reduction in rate of transit dues per ton since 1869 p. 104-5 INDEX OF SUBJECTS. 125 Tasmania, legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow - - - p. 78 Tyser Line and Colonial Line, Crahb - - p. 22 United States of America : Average exports from, and imports to. United King- dom, 1878-1911, Snow . - - - p. 63 Correlations between fluctuations in emigration from United Kingdom, and exports and imports. Snow p. 62-3, 64 Exports from United Kingdom, net emigration from United Kingdom and imports into United Kingdom, 1878-1910. Snow - - p. 61-2. 6.'} Exports from United Kingdom more closely asso- ciated with emigration from United Kingdom than are imports, Snow - - ■ - p. 64 Immigration from United Kingdom, exports to United Kingdom, and imports to United Kingdom, 1876-1911, Snmi} p. 75 Lower rates to, from Continental than from United Kingdom ports - - - - - - p. 110 Mails, system. Crabb - - - - q- 437-43 Movement to and from Canada. 1911-12, 1910-11, 1909-10, Show p. 69 Trade with West Indies tending to displace British trade p. 105 White population, imports from, and exports to. United Kingdom per head. 1891. 1901, 1911, Snow p. 6(1 Union-Castle Mail Steamship Co., mail contract. Crabb p. 20, q. 509 Union Steamship Co. of New Zealand, mail service, Crabb p. 21 Victoria, legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15-45, 1861-1911, Snow - - - p. 78 Western Union Telegraph Co., see under Cables. West Indies : Mails, maintenance on ship-letter basis, Crabb p. 20-1 Steamship services : Acceleration, need for - - - p. 105-6 to Canada, need for improvement - - p. 106 with England, particulars re - - - p. 106 between Jamaica and southern colonies, need of improvement - - - - - - p. 106 Trade with United States tending to displace trade with England p. 105 Western Australia, legitimate births per 1,000 married women, aged 15—15, 1861-1911, Snotc - - p. 78 White, Sir William, H.M. Director of Naval Construc- tion, quoted re railway-ferry steamers - - p. 87 White Star Line, Crabb ... p. 23, q. 558-9 Wire and wire goods, lower freight rates to Australia on Continental goods than on United Kingdom, and preference should be granted and increased p. Ill t'.ed. I'SXJLATIONS : — •■y.) Regula Army. 191.'!. M. • Sei-vice Coi i>s. (Regular Army.) XI,;. iforse Aiiillery. Q.F. 13-pr. 1913. 9d. Xl-, FUM Artillery. Q.F. 4-5-moh Howitzer. 'ftegular Army.) 1913. M. '■■ ' ^.'oval Garrison Artillery, Siege Ai'tillery, Uovable Armament and Miichine Giin.s III Armaments. 1913. Is. \|> fifujvy Artillery. B.Ij. (iO-pr. (Regular Army.) 1913. 9d. RsTABLisuiMENTS. Peacb. Part II. Territoi-ial Force, 1913-14. M. Examination Paphes :— Officeks Trainin« Coeps. Cadets of the Junior .11(1 Senior Divi.sions. Certificates A & B. .^Iiuvh 1913. 6d. M BciAi, Reseeve, Militia, Territobiai. Poece, .MiDljNivEESiTy Candidates. March, 1913. Is. Field Service Manuals: — Medical Service. Army. Expeditionaiy Force. 1913. 3d. s KiNAL Service. Signal Company (Air-line). Ex- peditionary Force. 1913. 3d. i;uN. 13-pi-. Q.F. Handbookfor. LandService. 1913. Is. 3d. IxFANTRY Training, 1911. Amendments, Aug. 1913. Id. Postal Services. Aemy. \V.\k. Manual of 1913. .'W. Remount Rb«ulations. 1913. -id. Rifles, Short and CHARmER-LOADiNG, Macja- ziNE, Lee-Enfield. Handbook for Serjeant- Instructors of Special Reserve, Officers Training Corps, and Territorial Force in regard to the Care, Inspection, &c., of 3d. Transport. Mechanical. Regulations for the Appointment of Inspectors of. 1913. Id. Typhoid (Anti-) Committee. Report. 1912. 28. (id. Works Manual. War. Provisional. 1913, id. Admiralty :— First Aid in the Royal Navy. 9d. Flait, The Union, in its pi-esent form. Memoran- dum relative to the Origin of. 4d. Mediterranean Pilot, Vol. II., 190.5. Revi.sed Supplement {^), 1913. — Uniform Regulations for Chief Potty Officers, Petty Officers, Men and Boys of the Fleet, and for Boys in the Training Establishments. 9d. Watch and Quarter Bills, &c. : — No. 1 size. S. 2.50 (Revised Aug. 1912). For complements above .500. 2s. No. 2 size. S. 250 (Revised Jan. 1913). For complements below 500. 2s. Board of Trade : — Explosion and Fire on Fishing and other small Vessels fitted with Internal -combustion Engines, Precautions against. Id. 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