UUSB LIBRARY 
 
 X- 
 
 A DEBATE 
 
 ON THB 
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION 
 
 HELD IN THE SYCAMORE-STREET MEETING BOUSE, CINCINNATI, 
 FROM THK 13th TO THE 21st UF JANUARY, 1837. 
 
 ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, 
 
 OF BETHANY, VIRGINIA, 
 
 RT. REV. JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 
 BISHOP OF CINCINNATI. 
 
 > 
 TAKEN DOWN BY REPORTERS, AND REVISED BY THF. PARTUaft 
 
 
 NEW YORK AND CINCINNATI: x 
 BENZIG-ER BROTHERS 
 
 PriNTERS TO THE HOLY APOSTOLIC SEE.
 
 We the undersigned, having sold and conveyed to J. A. James and Go., ot 
 Cincinnati for a certain sum per'copy, (to be paid by them to us, or to our or 
 der, and to be appropriated to two public charitable institutions, as agreed on 
 between ourselves, 1 ! for all that shall be printed ; the exclusive right of printing 
 and publishing the DEBATE on the ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION, held in 
 th! Sycamore Street Meeting House, Cincinnati, from the 13th to the 21st. of 
 January 1837, inclusive, between ourselves, and taken down by Reporters, em- 
 ployed by the said J. A. James & Co., and revised, corrected, and approved by 
 us, do hpreby make known that the edition or editions published by J. A. James 
 & Co., or by their authority, and revised by us, must be considered the only cor- 
 rect and authorized editions of laid DEBATE. 
 
 CINCINNATI, FEB. lit 1887. * JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 
 Bp. Cin. 
 A. CAMPBELL. 
 
 N
 
 PREFACE. 
 
 IT has been judged expedient to insert, by way of preface 
 to the following Controversy, the subjoined notice, from a pa- 
 per published in Cincinnati, by Protestant proprietors, of the 
 circumstances under which the debate originated. We regret 
 that it is not in our power, at the same time, to present to the 
 public the remarks of Bishop Purcell, in the College of Teach- 
 ers, to which exception was so wantonly taken by Mr. Camp- 
 bell. But we have not now before us a file of the Cincinnati 
 Catholic Telegraph, in which they originally appeared, or of 
 the Cincinnati Gazette, into which they were subsequently 
 copied. The annexed account, however, which is from the 
 dni'innufi (l<i::>'tte of the 7th of February, 1836, will, it is 
 thought, be sufficient to satisfy the curiosity of readers gene- 
 rally. They who desire more ample information on the sub- 
 ject will consult the periodicals named, or the " Transactions 
 of the College of Teachers" for the year 1836, in which the 
 discourses of Bishop Purcell, Dr. Joshua Wilson, and Mr. 
 Campbell have been published. 
 
 " Some few years ago, a manufactory of public opinion was 
 got up ' down, East? the object of which was to put Catholics 
 back to their old position. This manufactory manufactured a 
 moh to burn a Convent, and the coinage of various books, 
 which a man could not read in the presence of his daughters. 
 Our city of Cincinnati is fast becoming a manufacturing city ; 
 consequently this Eastern manufactory notion respecting Ca- 
 tholics began to gain foothold, and was making headway 
 amongst us. In this state of things, an occasion was soon 
 found for going to work. 
 
 " There is one Alexander Campbell, of considerable notori- 
 ety in this country, of no mean capacity learned, self-confi- 
 dent, and indefatigable. This gentleman, as we have under 
 his own hand, in Saturday's Gazette, took upon himself many 
 years ago, '0 unite all Protestant Christians as one great bond 
 of union, as CntJinll<\ as Protestantism? Such an undertaking 
 is abundant proof of the undertaker's self-confidence. It is 
 well known that Mr. Campbell labored in this o-re.-U work with
 
 iv PREFACE. 
 
 assiduity. He was himself the operative manufacturer. He 
 knew his tools, kept them in excellent order and in constant 
 use hut he produced no such 'union* as he was seeking to 
 manufacture. On the contrary, his efforts very soon manufac- 
 tured disunion in the Baptist church, of which he was a mei\j- 
 ber. And then, again, his next manufacture was an addition- 
 al Protestant sect, of which he was the founder and head. 
 Like all ardent projectors, he was nothing discouraged. His 
 fancy that, he was to become the great 'MILLENNIAL HARBIN- 
 GER,' for effecting his contemplated Protestant ' <jr<ti<<l bond 
 of union? remained apparently as vivid and as sanguine as it 
 was when he commenced his work. But dissatisfaction arose 
 in the minds of others. His Avorks were judged by their 
 fruits, and these were esteemed bitter ; sowing discords among 
 Protestant churches, instead of producing the healings of 
 union. Most Protestants of distinction and circumspection 
 avoided continuing to give him consequence, by engaging in 
 controversy with him ; but he found a resource, for the mo- 
 ment, in the famous Owen, of Lanark, Avith whom he got a 
 tilting match here, in Cincinnati, the fame of Avhich did not 
 endure long. For some time past, he has been rather out of 
 the Avorld, and had even been criss-crossed \>y the two 'Jour- 
 nals' of Cincinnati. Still, howeA'er, he retained amongst us a 
 number of ardent, respectable supporters, so that a visit to 
 Cincinnati was quite a matter of course. 
 
 " Opportunely, the College of Teachers met in October last, 
 of which the Catholic Bishop Avas a member, and Mr. Camp- 
 bell also. Here, Avith his usual tact, he manufactured an oc- 
 casion for exhibiting once more his manufacturing poAvers. 
 Mr. Campbell advanced certain positions and employed certain 
 arguments that Avere used to furnish materials for commencing 
 a manufacturing of public opinion, hereabouts ; not on the 
 'union of all Protestant Christians,'' \)\it on the errors and 
 mischief of ' .Ronm/nxm .' ' The most approved method of the 
 day Avas resorted to. Some sixty citizens unite together to 
 put the work in motion. Mr. Campbell is requested to enforce 
 and enlarge, in a public discussion, his ' exposure find Illustra- 
 tions of the al>ttiir<I </"////,> <nf iixayes of the Roman Catholic 
 ChurchJ as announced in six propositions in a public meeting. 
 Mr. Campbell accedes, in due form, and writes a newspaper 
 column, discussing the conduct ot Bishop Purcell, in this mat- 
 ter, and discussing himself and his own doings, and then en- 
 larging on Avhat he intended to do. His letter also set forth 
 nine specifications, of what he meant to take in hand, and in 
 respect to Avhich, of course, he proposed to manufacture a pub- 
 lic opinion. 
 
 " This correspondence Avas brought to the Gazette office for 
 publication. I thought I perceived its drift and consequences.
 
 PREFACE. V 
 
 Mr. Campbell would be got before the public as the champion 
 of Protestantism. He expected to obtain reputation as ' de- 
 f*')i<ler of the faith ^ upon which to carry on his further opera- 
 tions. Its effects, here, would be to exasperate existing pre- 
 judices to supply ALIMENT for new antipathies and excite- 
 ments, to provoke individual controversies, and thus disturb 
 the harmony of the community, with no possibility of benefit 
 to anybody but Mr. Campbell himself. The publication of the 
 correspondence was objected to by me, on these grounds. 
 And, in addition, on the ground that the nine propositions to 
 he discussed wore couched in terms unnecessarily and offen- 
 sively opprobrious." 
 
 In the same paper, of the loth of December previous, the 
 following letter of JJishop Purcell appeared in answer to a 
 challenge from Mr. Campbell to a public discussion: 
 
 " MR. EDITOR: In a communication over the signature of A. 
 Campbell, in Friday morning's Gazette, that gentleman is 
 made to say, ' We hope that our Roman Catholic friends, who 
 have avowed their regard for free discussion, and who have 
 so boldly aivd wantonly impugned Protestant principles, will 
 (then and there) be in readiness to sustain their allegata, or to 
 dispute the propositions we have submitted to their considera- 
 tion.' 
 
 " Now, as Mr. Campbell modestly declines the epithet Ite- 
 verend in connection with his name, and yet inconsistently as- 
 sumes the proud title of WE, I presume, from recent circum- 
 stances to which he alludes, that I may consider myself, with- 
 out any suspicion of vanity, to be the'humble individual whom 
 he honors with a pluralization in the word 'friends.' So far, 
 then, if I may begin this very grave business with a laugh, we 
 are both even, though each of us is an odd number ! 
 
 " But, sir, I deny that I have 'boldly and wantonly im- 
 pugned Protestant principles.' It is all t'other way, Mr. Edi- 
 tor, and as 1 desire that the public should be rightly informed 
 on this subject, I proceed at once to the proof. 
 
 " Some time past, as long ago as last February, be it noted, 
 I received through the Post Office a copy of the February 
 number of the { Christian Preacher,' edited by D. S. Barnet, 
 Cincinnati. On the wrapper were conspicuously pencilled the 
 words, c See page 48.' I lost no time in making the reference, 
 and on the page indicated read as follows : ' Wno WIM, TRY ?' 
 Mr. Alexander Campbell, in Harbinger, Vol. VII., No. 3, de- 
 clares his willingness to meet any respectable friend of the 
 Pope, who will engage to defend the claims of ' his holiness,' 
 with either the pen or the tongue. 
 
 " Not choosing to disturb the peace of the religious comniu-
 
 Vi PBEFACE. 
 
 nity, by stirring up the bitter waters of controversy, I took no 
 further notice of this ' bold and wanton ' challenge. 
 
 " In the April number of the same periodical, I was again 
 and similarly referred to another ' bold and wanton' challenge 
 from Mr. A. Campbell, which, as a fair specimen of the au- 
 thor'* sense and ministerial courtesy, I shall submit to the can- 
 did judgment of my fellow-citizens. I am confident that every 
 unprejudiced reader will conclude, after its perusal, that Mr. 
 Campbell is himself the 'bold and wanton' aggressor, which 
 he has most disingenuously, and without one particle of Chris- 
 tian truth or fairness, labored to make me appear before the 
 people of Cincinnati amongst whom, I trust, I have not one 
 enemy. If I have, unconsciously, such a misfortune, I am sure 
 I have not deserved it. 
 
 < MR. CAMPBELL AND THE PAPISTS. 
 
 'We have just room enough to insert the extract from the 
 March l[i-1>in(jer below. It is about the last half of Mr. C.'s 
 reply to the communication of " W. A.," a Romanist of Spring- 
 field, 111. We ask again, who will try to sustain the claims of 
 the Pope and Popery ?' Editor of the Preacher. 
 
 ' But as the gentleman has not attempted (and as it is pre- 
 sumed no man will fairly attempt) to show either scriptural or 
 logical discrepancy in my essay alluded to, I will not again re- 
 peat what I have written on the conversation at Ca-sarea Phi- 
 lippi. That view of the passage I stand ready to sustain 
 against the Pope himself, or any Bishop under his jurisdic- 
 tion, in the old world or new. They shall have as much anti- 
 quity as they please, and as many of the traditions of the Apos- 
 tolic Fathers as they can hang upon any two of the longest 
 pins in St. Peter's Church provided only these traditions do 
 not fairly and flatly contradict each other, and both Peter ami 
 Paul into the bargain. It is high time that the American peo- 
 ple should be enlightened upon this subject, and every drop of 
 oil in my lamp is at their service whenever a trustworthy son of 
 the modern St. Peter appears ready for the discussion. 
 
 ' If I can prove to any Jew that Jesus of Xazareth is the 
 true Messiah if I can prove to any sceptic, Greek or Roman, 
 French or English philosopher, that he is the Sou of God, and 
 the only Saviour of the world, and the author of eternal sal- 
 vation to all who obey him then can I prove to any impartial 
 jury that the Pope of Rome is " t/t<> inn of sin" foretold by 
 Paul, and " the son of perdition," whose ruin is predicted by 
 St. John. 
 
 ' Hut I must have a a'ni, n fnU-<jrn'i, nxi/i, with whom to 
 discuss the proposition submitted, and one in whose judgment
 
 PREFACE. Vll 
 
 the Romanists themselves, inferior clergy and people, have 
 confidence. I will contend with him by one of two weapons 
 he may choose the tongue or the pen? 
 
 " With respect to Mr. Campbell's cartel, I nave only to say, 
 that, however low of stature, my trust is strong in God and in 
 the might of His truth, that, when the hour of trial comes, I 
 shall be found more than a match for this vaunting Goliah. - 
 
 "JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 
 " Bishop of Cincinnati" 
 
 THE CONTROVERSY. 
 
 The discussion between the Rt. Rev. Bishop Purcell and 
 Mr. Alexander Campbell terminated on Saturday at noon, 
 after eight days' continuance. The intei-est which it awakened 
 in the public mind continued unabated to the last moment, and 
 the audience was so large that fears were frequently expressed 
 respecting the solidity of the edifice. We repeat what we said 
 last week, that a more propitious event for Catholics could not 
 have occurred. We will not give expression to what we feel, 
 nor will we exhibit any exultation regarding the result, for 
 fear that our testimony maybe considered interested ; but our 
 readers will lind below the evidence of the daily press of this 
 city, and we cheerfully refer them to their unbiased declara- 
 tions. 
 
 (From the Daily Gazette.) 
 "A BOTTLE OF TEARS. 
 
 " The fact that Mr. Campbell opened the grand debate here, 
 by a notice of the Gazette, has already been mentioned. That 
 notice is thus written out in the reports of the Gross and 
 Baptist Journal : 
 
 ' I have come here to-day in defence of the principles of 
 Protestantism not as the partisan of a sect. Much pains 
 have been taken to produce the impression that I am the as- 
 sailant. The Gazette of this city has called this discussion " a 
 war on the Catholics" It is worthy of note that whenever 
 Catholicism is likely to suffer, the conductor of the Gazette has 
 a bottle of tears to shed. Whether these tears are religious or 
 political, I cannot tell.' 
 
 " ' Whenever Catholicism is LIKELY TO SUFFER, the <<,,- 
 ductor of the Gazette ha-s a bottle of tears to shed.'' ' LIKELY
 
 PREFACE. 
 
 TO SUFFETI !' There is modesty for you ! Mr. Campbell is 
 about to make Catholicism ' STFFEIt ;' whereupon, in terror 
 and apprehension, as Mr. Campbell seems to have imagined, of 
 his mighty Brian De Bois Gilbert exploits, the conductor of 
 the Gazette uncorked a bottle of tears, and poured forth his 
 griefs in anticipation. Alas! for Mr. Campbell's vainglory ! 
 None who bottled up tears for that occasion found any reason 
 to uncork their bottles. Catholicism was little put to the tor- 
 ture. She could not truly say, ' my sufferings IS intolerable? 
 Mr. Campbell's ' defence of Protestantism'' has turned out to 
 be a very considerable failure, so far as rendering Catholicism 
 odious was a part of his effort. Most of those who heard the 
 debate, with the least prejudice, think better of Catholics than 
 they had previously thought. If any have unbottled their 
 store of tears, I suspect it is some of those who called Mr. 
 Campbell to this discussion." 
 
 (From the same.) 
 "THE GRAND DEBATE. 
 
 " This ' grand, affair ' closed on Saturday. Of the result, 
 there seems to be but one general opinion Mr. Campbell did 
 Catholicism no injury. His effort was a grand failure. Alas 
 for Protestantism ! if she stood upon Mr. Campbell's shield 
 and buckler. Both the combatants talked in the dead lan- 
 guages. I claim to be equally pedantic... And of Mr. Camp- 
 bell's defence of Protestantism, I say : 
 
 1 Nbn tali auxilio, nee defensoribua ist.is, 
 Tempus eget? 
 
 " No, indeed ! Mr. Campbell has made it manifest that he 
 is not the man required by the times to make Catholicism 
 ' suffer? The suffering, if any, is on the part of himseJf and 
 of Ids employers. ' We leave them alone in their glory? " 
 
 (From the WJtig.) 
 "THE DEBATE. 
 
 "The debate (on the subject of the correctness of the Ro 
 man Catholic Doctrine) between Mr. Alexander Campbell and 
 Bishop Purcell, ends to-day. We understand that, thus far, 
 it has created a vast deal of interest, and that large audiences 
 of both sexes have been daily in attendance. We regret very
 
 FREEZE. IX 
 
 much that we have been prevented by indisposition from 
 hearing any portion of it. We have, however, heard many 
 spi'nk of it (none of whom hav,e been Catholics), and the opin- 
 ion seems to be universal that Mr. Campbell has been ' pretty 
 well until up? And not only so, but so successful have been 
 the Bishop's efforts, that he has not only completely succeeded 
 in wiping away the prejudices against Catholicism, but has 
 well nigh converted to his faith a large portion of his Protes- 
 tant auditors. We have not heard a dissenting voice to the 
 opinion that Mr. Campbell has utterly failed in establishing a 
 single one of the original objections to the Catholic Doctrine 
 which he set out to prove. 
 
 " As we have no tincture of Catholicism in our composition, 
 the foregoing remarks cannot bo supposed to have emanated 
 from any bias or partiality towards it. We speak the -senti- 
 ments of others who have attended the debate, many of whom 
 went there, in the first instance, with violent prejudices against 
 the Catholics and their doctrine." 
 
 (From the Republican.) 
 "THE CONTROVERSY. 
 
 " We have been repeatedly asked, why we have not noticed 
 the ' grand de-bate,' as our neighbor of the Gazette calls it, be- 
 tween Mr. Campbell, the great exterminator of Catholicism, 
 and every other ism but his own sel/ism, and Bishop Purcell, 
 which for a week past has engrossed the attention of our citi- 
 zens, to the exclusion almost of every other subject. We could 
 assign many excellent reasons why we have not followed the 
 example of the editor of the Gazette, and reported the pro- 
 gress, from day to day, of this unprofitable controversy. The 
 best reason, however, which we could possibly advance is that 
 furnished by the Gazette, viz. : That there was nothing to re- 
 port that seven days have been consumed in argument, and 
 that not a single point has yet been established. And that the 
 modern Don Quixote, who set out with a flourish of trumpets, 
 with the vain boast of being able to demolish the Catholic re- 
 ligion, has failed to accomplish his threat, and retires from the 
 contest pretty much afier the manner of the sorry knight of 
 La Mancha, from his assault upon the windmill crippled and 
 discomfited. We have no sectarian prejudices: we have been 
 brought up in reverence of the principles of Christianity as in- 
 culcated by the Bible, without regard to any particular rite or 
 form of worship. We have been taught to believe that cha- 
 rity and faith constitute the foundation or keystone to true
 
 X PBSFACE. 
 
 Christianity ; and that, without them, there can be no genuine 
 religion. We have been taught to hold in utter contempt all 
 narrow-mindedness and bigotry among professors of Christia- 
 nity as at variance with the liberal doctrines of our Saviour, 
 who enjoined upon his followers to ' do unto others as they 
 would wish to be done by,' and proclaimed ' good-will to all 
 men.' And we have ever looked upon religious persecution 
 as the most odious of all persecutions, no matter from what 
 source it emanates, or against what sect it is brought to bear. 
 It may be presumed, therefore, that we have no approbation 
 to bestow upon the illiberal policy of those who, like Mr. 
 Campbell, have entered upon a crusade against the Catholic 
 religion to gratify their malice or a vain desire for distinction ; 
 or commiseration to award, if, in their attempts to demolish 
 the Catholics, they get demolished themselves." 
 
 (From the Cincinnati Daily Gazette.) 
 "THE GRAND DEBATE. 
 
 "This exciting commotion was concluded on Saturday, Ja- 
 nuary 21st, after an eight-day discussion, of about four hours 
 each day. The interest and the audience continued to increase 
 until it became the chief topic of conversation in the city. 
 The better opinion is, that Protestantism gained nothing in 
 the contest, and that Catholicism suffered nothing. Mr. Camp- 
 bell's notion expressed, at the commencement, that an appre- 
 hension of approaching inflictions upon the Catholics had 
 caused the shedding of some bottled tears, turned out to be a 
 conception of his own self confidence, which he failed to real- 
 ize. A new feeling favorable to Catholicism has been created 
 in the minds of many by the discussion. It may be thus ex- 
 plained : 
 
 "For some two or three years, incessant efforts have been 
 made to cast odium upon the Catholics, especially upon their 
 clergy. This has been particularly the casein Boston, in Xe\v- 
 York, and Cincinnati. An inundation of books, various and 
 successive, have been poured upon the country, calculated to 
 make an impression that the Catholic convents were recepta- 
 cles of the most flagitious enormities. The bald grossness of 
 these fabrications, upon any other subject, would have been 
 generally denounced as too indecent, for countenance in an 
 intelligent community. Even an allusion to their contents, in 
 a newspaper, is trenching upon propriety. We had ' SECKKTS 
 OF FEMALE CONVENTS DISCLOSED/ Wo had Rebecca Reed's 
 narration of the Ursuline Convent, burnt down by Protestant 
 niobbish violence. We had Maria Monk's monstrosities at
 
 PREFACE. XI 
 
 Montreal. All these abominations have been greedily received 
 by many in this community have been read and credited, so 
 as to impress the reader with the belief that Catholicism was 
 the monster they represented it to be. Refutation was out of 
 the question ; it would not be listened to if offered. Nay, to 
 question the narrations \vas held to associate the questioner 
 with the Catholics, and brand him as a participator in their 
 crimes. The Protestant pulpits in Cincinnati, or most of them, 
 frequently presented Catholicism in unfavorable lights. Fa- 
 mily conversations were of the same tendency. There was, iu 
 fact, an incessant and strong current running in one direction 
 unfavorable to Catholicism. In this state of things, Protes- 
 tantism, apparently, had nothing to apprehend in Cincinnati. 
 She had no occasion for a champion. But a tilting gladiator, 
 on the field of religious debate, came among us, and an occa- 
 sion was contrived, by an inconsiderate few, to invite him to 
 nn exposition of Catholicism. Hence tin's debate. Through it 
 tho Catholics have been heard, by hundreds, if not thousands, 
 of Protestants, who came to witness the prostration of the 
 whole fabric, and all its institutions and adherents, and who 
 came to believe the worst that could be said of them. Many of 
 these received new impressions. They heard the Bishop's ex- 
 position of the points of exception, and they learned that they 
 had believed much that was disputed, and had condemned 
 much that was capable of plausible explanation. They ascer- 
 tained that Mr. Campbell was often at fault in his assertions 
 and in his arguments. They saw him sometimes nonplussed, 
 and often hard pressed. Thus did they come to understand 
 that there was a fair side as well as foul one for Catholicism, 
 and herein have the Catholics gained in something, whilst they 
 have suffered in nothing. 
 
 " I do not regard this Catholic gain as Protestant loss. I 
 honor Protestantism too much to believe she can be injured by 
 the dispersion of prejudice, or by the discomfiture of presump- 
 tuous vindicators. And for this reason it is that I have repre- 
 hended the war waged against the Catholics. It is, in fact, a 
 war // p '////v.>w<>tf not defensive, whether the operator be Rebec- 
 ca Reed, Maria Monk, or Alexander Campbell ; whether it be 
 waged under color of defending Protestantism, or of checking 
 the advance of Catholicism ; and it is a war as unwise, in its, 
 commencement and in its continuance, as it has been discredit- 
 able in most of the agents and the weapons it has employed. 
 
 " One of the most gratifying results of this controversy is, 
 the interchange of good feeling and Christian regard which it 
 elicited from Catholic and Protestant. \Ve were delighted 
 to see and hear the congratulations which parsed between men 
 hitherto unfortunately esti'anged. The mists of prejudice 
 have been dispersed, and we all were happy to behold each
 
 Xll PREFACE. 
 
 other in the pure light of love, benevolence, and charity. It 
 was gratifying to observe the warmth and sincerity with which 
 Bishop Purcell was greeted by his Protestant fellow-citizens, 
 and we feel assured that he responded in the fulness of his 
 heart to their kind felicitations upon the virtuous triumph 
 which he has achieved." 
 
 It is thought unnecessary to add to these extracts the testi- 
 mony of other periodicals to the same effect.
 
 APPENDIX. 
 
 CORRESPONDENCE. 
 
 (From the Cincinnati Catholic Telegraph of February 28, 1837.) 
 PRESENTATION OF PLATE. 
 
 A COMMITTEE waited on the Right Rev. Bishop Purcell last week, and 
 in the name of the English Catholics of Cincinnati, presented him with 
 various articles of plate, among which were two large and beautiful silver 
 pitchers, bearing the following inscription : 
 
 Presented to the 
 RT. REV. BISHOP PURCELL, D.D., 
 
 By the Roman Catholics of Cincinnati, as a testimonial of their grati- 
 
 tudefor his late eloquent and triumpJiant vindication 
 
 of their Holy Religion. 
 
 The following correspondence tdok place on the occasion between 
 Bishop Purcell and the Committee : 
 
 CINCINNATI, WASHINGTON'S BIRTHDAY, 1837. 
 RT. REV. DR. PURCELL, Bishop of Cincinnati : 
 
 DEAR SIR : The members of the Roman Catholic Church in Cincinnati 
 request you to accept of the accompanying present as a testimonial of their 
 gratitude lor your late triumphant defence of their holy religion. We 
 are well aware that an imperative sense of duty could alone have induced 
 you to depart from the Retirement so congenial to your feelings, and 
 appear as a controvertist before the public eye. You no doubt felt, in 
 common with your Catholic fellow-citizens, that the sacred subject of reli- 
 gion is better suited to private study and meditation than the turmoil and 
 acrimony with which its public discussion is frequently attended. Occa- 
 sion, however, will arise when Truth may be injured by silence, and for- 
 bearance almost cease to be a virtue. Such was your situation previous 
 to the late controversy, into which you were forced by the unjust re- 
 proaches with which your faith, and that of an immense majority of Chris- 
 tians, was so recklessly assailed. But Truth, though always modest and 
 unassuming, has an overwhelming power at her command, whenever she 
 chooses to exert it, in vindication of her character. Of this \ve had illus- 
 trious proofs during the late discussion. 
 
 The gratification which wo feel at the result of the debate is not be- 
 cause a "wanton assailant" has been rebuked, but because Truth lia 
 achieved 8O signal a triumph. To exult over any of our fellow-creature^ 
 would be indicative of feelings as foreign to your heart as they would b 
 to ours : we can pity the advocate of error, and regret his delusions ; bu 
 the feeling which his exposure elicits is the exclusive property of reli 
 gious charity. 
 
 Catholics have long endured persecution for conscience' sake. Extra- 
 ordinary au'l wicked doctrines have been published as a part of thei 
 creed, aud the land has been flooded with fabrications which are sai 
 the foundations of morality, though ostensibly designed to ridicule C'aih 
 licism. Your eloquent and convincing exposition of our doctrin. 
 dis:ibn<e h'>i'nxt minds of their erroneous impressions respecting our rc^ 
 gion. This happy consequence of tin- discussion is already widely diffu?- 
 throughout the community in which we dwell. Even the minister o. ,
 
 XIV APPENDIX. 
 
 large and respectable body of our dissenting friends has publicly avowed, 
 thut "his charity for the Catholic communion is considerably enlarged." 
 We sincerely trust that similar sentiments will pervade the breasts of our 
 fellow-citizens throughout the western country, and in every place to 
 which the controversy shall extend. We yield to none of our fellow- 
 citizens in love and veneration for our republican institutions, and this 
 devotion to our country you have always cherished and enforced. On this 
 point, notwithstanding the harsh accusations which have been brought 
 against us, we feel that we do not deserve reproach. May God preserve, 
 many years, the '" peace and good-will " so dear to every sincere Chris- 
 tian, and induce the heart which animosity has withered to bloom and 
 flourish with kindlier feelings. 
 
 That you may long survive to promote this heavenly harmony, and 
 thus confer new benefits upon society, is the fervent prayer of 
 
 YOUR FRIENDS AND FELLOW-CITIZENS. 
 
 CINCINNATI, 22d February, 1837. 
 
 BELOTED FRIENDS AND FELLOW-CITIZENS : I receive, with peculiar 
 satisfaction, on the anniversary of the birthday of Washington, this splen- 
 did and unsolicited testimonial of your gratitude for my late vindication 
 of the principles and conduct of Roman Catholics. I did not seek the 
 controversy to which you allude. From nature and habit, I am now, as 
 I have ever been, averse to such exhibitions. Religion is not in need of 
 them : and, in my judgment, it is more congenial -with her mild and holy 
 spirit faithfully to practice what we sincerely believe, than to seek to ex- 
 pose the unsoundness of our neighbor's convictions, or to obtrude our 
 own, unbidden and unwelcome, upon him. But there are men who are 
 neither at rest themselves, iu their faith, nor will they, if they can, suf- 
 fer others to be so. One of these I have lately-met ; and although I take 
 no merit to myself for his humiliation, I think I may say with truth, he 
 by this time sincerely repents of his rashness. 
 
 Quern Dens milt perdere, prius dementat Whom God intends to de- 
 stroy, he first dements. How perfectly this maxim has been verified in 
 the failure of my opponent, n, reference to the printed report of the con- 
 troversy will demonstrate to every candid mind. The present I consider, 
 however, a very suitable occasion for at least an allusion to the prominent 
 points of his defeat. These I reduce, for brevity's sake, to twenty-four. 
 
 1st. He pledged himself to prove that the " Institution sometimes called 
 the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church is not now, nor was she ever, Catho- 
 lic, apostolic, or holy ; but is a sect, in the fair import of that word, older 
 than any other sect now existing, but not the mother and mistress of all 
 churches, but an apostasy from the only true, holy, apostolic and Catho- 
 lic Church of Christ." He also pledged himself to show the time when 
 (i/id the place wliere her apostasy commenced. This remarkable event, he 
 assigned, in the first instance, to the 10th of July, 1054 ; but when he 
 was ii.sked, which was the true Church of Christ from which the Roman 
 Catholic Church had apostatized, at the period just mentioned, he could 
 only reply by contradicting his previous assertion, and stating that the 
 apostasy took place " some time about the ycai'250 \" When the question 
 was again uryed upon him to name the true church from which the 
 Roman Catholic then apostatized, he had no answer to give, nor has he 
 given one ! I predicted that this would puzzle him, and it has done so 
 most effectually. 
 
 3d. He insulted Protestants, whose champion he affected to be consider- 
 ed, by making a monster-church of ail the jarring, and many of them, 
 impious sects, that rose and fell during the iirst fifteen centuries. These
 
 APPENDIX. XV 
 
 he recommended to their veneration, saying, " Protestants, behold our 
 mother 1" 
 
 3d. lie undertook to show when the Church of Rome obtained the 
 primacy of all the churches, and stated that this took place when Gre- 
 <j:>ry the Great crmcned the usurper, Phocas, king, in the church of t. 
 John tlie Baptiat at Gonttantimople ; and that Gregory received from the 
 gratitude ot Phocas the title of Universal Bishop as a reward for his 
 share in the infamy of the entire procedure. The gentleman quoted Gib- 
 bon as his authority for a statemei-t which I venture to assert no man in 
 the assembly, learned or unlearned, had ever heard beiore. I challenged 
 its glaring inaccuracy, and proved from Gibbon, that Gregory had neither 
 lot nor part in the elevation of Phocas ; that he did not go from Rome to 
 Constantinople to crown him ; that this was done by Germauus, the 
 Patriarch of Constantinople, after the abdication of Mauritius ; that Gre- 
 gory, in all probability, knew nothing of the accession of Phocas until 
 after that event ; finally, that the soldiery and the people, not the Pope, 
 nor the Patriarch, raised Phocaa to the throne I My learned opponent 
 had to confess that " lie might have been mistaken." 
 
 4th. He boasted that he could produce a Bible taken from a manuscript 
 copy of the Scriptures " icJtich had never been soiled by the hand of a, 
 monk." To prove this assertion he quoted the Codes Alexandrians pre- 
 served in the British Museum, and containing the Old Testament of the 
 Septuagint, and the New Testament, in Greek, with the Apocrypha, which 
 Protestants most unreasonably reject I It happened, however, most un- 
 fortunately for his reputation as a scholar, and to his own utter confusion, 
 that in reading from Home's Introduction to the study of the Scriptures, 
 he traced the origin of this manuscript to ONE OF TUK 22 MONASTERIES 
 ON MOUNT ATIIOS 1 It was there that this manuscript was written, and 
 appended to it as a part of the same scroll ia a Psaltery of one of the 
 Acoemets.* It was thus the gentleman established this proposition ! 
 
 5th. My opponent insisted that it \vas as easy to distinguish genuine 
 from spurious Scriptures, as it was to distinguish the meridian sun in J,he 
 heavens. On this point he was shown to be diametrically opposed to the 
 most learned Protestant divines, who maintain that we can no otherwise 
 determine the books, of Scripture than by the authority of the primitive 
 Church. History attests that the most serious difficulties have been en- 
 countered in determining the Canonical books of Scripture, but in the 
 theory of my opponent, the existence of any such difficulty would have 
 been impossible. He forgot that Luther found no such evidence for the 
 Epistle of St. James, which he called " an Epistle of straw," and that, as 
 the learned Protestant Bishop of Kentucky says, " There is not a ' Thus 
 saith the Lord,' to vouch for the authenticity of any book of Scripture." 
 
 6th. He charged the Catholic cree.l with immorality, because the priest 
 says. " I absolve thee," not recollecting that the English Episcopal Book of 
 Common Prayer directs the Minister of that Church to say the same and 
 with same intent, viz. : to release the penitent from his sins, in virtue of a 
 divine power. He could not discover any greater immorality or assump- 
 tion of divine power in the words of the Catholic priest, " I absolve 
 (loose) thee f.om thy sins, or thy sins from thee, in the name of the 
 Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," than in his own words 
 when he goes into the river with a Campbellite Catechumen, and says, 
 while he immerses him, " I baptize (wash) thee from thy sins, in the 
 
 *The Actemets were a class of monks in the ancient church, who flourished, par'i- 
 cularly iu the Bast, during the fifth century. They were, so called becau>'.- they had 
 Divine service pei formed without interruption in their churches. They divided them- 
 selves inro three bodies, each of which oilimti'd in turn, and relieved" the others. so 
 that their churches \ve-c iieve.railent, eitherday or nijjht. Wetstein adopts the opinion 
 of Casinxir Oudin, iliut the. (,',.;I-\ A! use it 
 
 contai, "cry hour of the day and 
 
 uikt. Proleg. in Nov. Te*r. vul. p. 10. (.Home's Introduction, p~. i*J.)
 
 XVI APPENDIX. 
 
 name," etc., and coining out of tlie stream says, "The Ohio has carried 
 away his sins !" 
 
 7th. He said, in the hearing of nearly 8000 persons, that the Bardstown 
 ' -, and by implication the Catholic Bishop of Bardstown, 
 had admitted that the Jansenist Du Piu was an authentic Catholic his- 
 torian ; whereas, as I have shown him, so that he had not a word to say 
 for himself by way of excuse, the Bardstown Adcocate, as I shall publish 
 in tho appendix to the controversy, says no such thing, but says the very 
 contrary ! 
 
 8th. He asserted that I could not adduce the testimony of a single 
 Catholic historian to prove that Osins presided as the Legate of Pope Sil- 
 vester at the Council of Nice. I quoted the most explicit and convincing 
 testimony to this effect, from Baronius, Noel, Alexander, Floury, etc.; 
 and thus, before the public, showed his learning at fault, on this point, 
 as on many others. 
 
 9th. He confounded the two men named Scotus, both remarkable per- 
 sonages in Ecclesiastical history ; one living in the 9th, the other in 
 the 14th century, one a heretic, the other an orthodox divine ; and 
 when challenged by me to say who Scotus was, he replied, " I presume 
 he iras some Father of the Church !" 
 
 10th. He denied that there could have been any truth in the Catholic 
 Church, because there were a few bad Popes in the Apostolic succession 
 at Rome ; and I confounded him by showing that the succession of the 
 Saviour's blood was not pure ; that there were murderers and drunkards 
 and adulterers in David's royal line, and among the Patriarchs, whom 
 God had chosen as the sole depositaries of truth, the witnesses of the 
 truth, the heralds of the truth, under the written and the unwritten law! 
 and that his argument was still more subversive of the Bible and of Chris- 
 tianity than of the Catholic Religion ; that her divinity was never more 
 evident than in the fact that the number of those bad Popes was so very 
 email, that none of them ever tonight false doctrine ; that they faithfully 
 spread the linht of the Gospel-truih through Pagan and Infidel climes ; 
 that by a special providence of God, no heresy or defection of any con- 
 siderable body of Catholics afflicted the Church during their jnmtificates ; 
 that it matters not so much to us, greatly as we desire the ministers of 
 our holy religion to honor their exalted station, and strongly as we con- 
 demn them if they do not, whether the conduit that conveys to us the 
 pure and crystal stream of heavenly doctrine be of gold, of silver, or of 
 some baser metal ; finally, that Jesus Christ foretold that such scandals 
 should come, but that THEY SHOULD NOT PREVAIL ; and that in the ex- 
 emplar, the first tribunal of Ecclesiastical authority in his newly found- 
 ed Church, in his own College of Cardinals, he allowed us to behold a 
 traitor, a profaner of the sacraments, a suicide, a perjured apostle, and a 
 band ot coward disciples, who fled frotii the stricken shepherd, that when 
 scandals not quite so bad should come to pass, we should not vacillate or 
 waver in faith, for that he was still with us, and that with him we had all 
 things, and could see the power of his grace in hundreds and thousands 
 of the clergy and saints, in the very worst of times who never bowed tho 
 knee to Baal ; that storms are as necessary in the spiritual as in the phy- 
 sical world, to purify the face of Heaven ; that as the d >ctrine of Jesus 
 Christ could never need to be amended, reformation should have taken 
 place in the Church, not oiit of it; that God permitted our faith to be tried 
 like that of Abraham, that we may know that He who founded the 
 Church was able to preserve her, and that, as in past times, no cloud 
 had ever lowered orcr the Church, that tJtc ruiuhmr ( ,f , /,t 
 
 shine through the gl->"Ht, so neither would His mercy fail us, till we reach- 
 ed the consummation of ages, in the unity or faith. " The heavens and 
 the earth shall pass away, but His word shall never pass away." 
 
 llth. lie held up a strip of soiled and smoked 'newspaper, which after
 
 APPENDIX. XV 11 
 
 years of safe-keeping some enlightened friend of the gentleman produced 
 " to do battle" in this debate ; and he was so ignorant that he told the 
 audience, with an air of triumph, that he held in his hand the actual form 
 of ii'fsing used in the Catholic Church, aye, by the Bishopot Philadelphia 
 in the United States, against a fallen priest. Now, what were tlie facts 
 of tho case ? Why that a Catholic never wrote the like ; that the Catho- 
 lic Church never used the like ; that a Protestant minister, Sterne, wrote 
 it; tin it it it. all to be found in Tristram Shandy, one of the most obscene 
 bonks in the English language, which, however, I procured from a book- 
 store before the gentleman had finished his speech, exhibited and in part 
 read to the audience, with the LILLIBULLARO of his hero, Dr. Slop, at the 
 beginning of tlie^e curses, until the whole assembly was convulsed, at the 
 expense of my fnend and to the glory of truth (quid vetat ridentemdicere 
 verum ?) with inextinguishable laughter. He did not intentionally, but 
 by a mistake, honor the Catholic Church with this decent composition. 
 The whole is an injurious caricature of the curses in the 28th ch. of 
 Dent. 3. 
 
 12th. He produced, as an authentic and approved Catholic Testament, 
 an edition thereof with notes, published by a band of Protestant parsons 
 in New-York (who no doubt, like the Maria Monk coterie, are condemned 
 by their brethren). I exposed this fraud, read the names of some of the 
 parsons aloud, and the condemnation of those very notes by the Arch- 
 bishop of Dublin. 
 
 13th. He quoted the Veu. and sainted Liguori, translated by a New- 
 York religious changeling 1 , for a charge of the most indecent kind against 
 the Catholic Church. Mr. Alex. Kinmont, an honorable man, a scholar, 
 and, as I have learned, u Swedenborgian, generously, at the solicitation, 
 I may presume to say, of the entire meeting, came on the platform and 
 showed there was nothing of it in the place of Liguori's works to which 
 Smith referred ; that the contrary was in another place, with a citation of 
 the chapter in the Council of Trent, which Mr. Kinmont translated for 
 the house, which condemns and denounces, in the strongest language it 
 could employ, the imputed immorality. 
 
 14th. He quoted a work "decorrupto Ecclesia? Statu," for a description 
 of Catholic immoralities, and gave into the stale slander, as if it had 
 been written by a Catholic Archdeacon, Nicholas de Clemangis, whereas 
 the author was never known, being ashamed to put his name to the in- 
 famous production. All critics agree that the Archdeacon had nothing 
 to do with the work. John de Chelin and John of Bavaria, not to Bpeak 
 of many others, have had successively the honor or shame of its author- 
 ship. 
 
 loth. He quoted Bellarmine, as saying that St. Peter was " probably" 
 Bishop of Rome, thus making this universally acknowledged fact a mere 
 probability ; whereas Bellarmine says positively that he was Bishop of 
 Rome, and that it was very probable that he transferred his See from 
 Antioch to that city by the express command of Jtsus Christ, which, you 
 perceive, is a very different proposition. 
 
 Kith. He charged Catholics with being hostile to civil and religious 
 liberty ; whereas, as I proved to him. Catholics werethe first tliat ever pro- 
 claimed Libert;/ of Conwioice in the Western Hemisphere, viz., the Catholic 
 colony of Maryland, ttmomj irhmn Protestants, when persecuted by Protest- 
 a nix, for conscience' sake, souyht and found a refuge. I told him of Venice 
 for so many centuries a Catholic and a glorious republic the commercial 
 Britain of former ages San Marino South- American Republics, William. 
 Tell, Kosciusko, and the free Cantons of Switzerland. 
 
 17th. He accused the Catholic Church with holding persecuting doc- 
 trine-', the Inquisition, etc. , etc. I refuted this oft-repeated charge by 
 showing him that no general council had eoi.r enacted a single canon au- 
 thorizing persecution ; that Catholics would not be bound by their religion
 
 XVI 11 APPENDIX. 
 
 to obey it. if it did, for that such legislation would be a manifest trans- 
 cending, on the part of the Church, of the powers granted ber by Jesus 
 Christ ; that it is, consequently, no part of Catholic faith. That we ac- 
 knowledge no doctrine as an article of Catholic faith but what has been 
 believed " ALWAYS, EVERYWHERE, AND BY ALL," and that the Inquisi- 
 tion was unknown and has tu '<:< r been received in many parts of the Ca- 
 tholic Church, which could not be the case if it were Catholic doctrine ; 
 that, where the <'i>:il pmcer established it, as iu the instance of Spain 
 against the desolating ravages of Mohammedans and Moors, by whom 
 that rich and luxuriant country had been so oiten swept, as with the be- 
 som of destruction, it did not altn/ys exUt and never was held to be so 
 much as a frnr/ment of Catholic faith ; that a Protestant country 
 has had, and lias still, as bloody, if not a bloodier, Inquisition and 
 other persecuting enactments, tribunals, institutions, and laws, as 
 ever disgraced the annals of Spain. To prove these allegata, I quoted, 
 not Catholic historians, but Hume, in his account of the Star-Chamber, 
 Taylor in his history of Ireland, Cobbitt's Protestant Reformation, 
 Dewey, a Unitarian, etc., etc. From these incontrovertible evidences, 
 and would to God theie were no others, it is clearly seen that there was 
 an Inquisition, and that there now is persecuiion under the Protestant 
 Government of England, not to mention others, which have slain their 
 tens of thousands, and keep EIGHT MILLIONS of people in a state of gall- 
 ing slavery to which death itself would, until late partial mitigations, 
 have been mercy ! There, still, that system of making the poor Catholic 
 peasantry pay the tithe of all they possess to support the luxurious, fox- 
 hunting preachers of a different religion, for defaming their own, subsists 
 in all its blushing horrors. My friend called it a dying system ; and so it 
 is. It has dyed the green fiehis red, over which I have strayed, as he has 
 done, in boyhood's careless hour; it has made a icidoic irantic for the 
 death of her last, her only son ! It has made her kneel down, a maniac, 
 in that sou's blood, and having drunk it, curse, with ensanguined lips, 
 his Reverend murderer ! This is but a solitary case. Can the annals of 
 cruelty furnish a parallel? 
 
 18th. He made a mighty bluster about Antichrist, and G66, and mon- 
 sters, and kingdoms, and eyes and horns, etc., etc., and I proved to him 
 that as one of the most clearly revealed marks of Antichrist is to " <'</<// //<>: 
 Father and Ike >$vn," the Pope, who acknowledges both, cannot be Anti- 
 christ. That all the prophecies of the downfall of a church, against wi.ich 
 Christ promised that the gates of hell should never prevail, predicated 
 upon the texts referring to this mysterious character, have failed of their 
 accomplishment, although they were excessively eloquent, and very minute 
 in incidents and circumstantial in details. I have not time to show si ill 
 more how ridiculous the whole theory appeared, but particularly the admis- 
 sion that the reign of Antichrist, the mystery of iniquity was int( rin-ily 
 irorkinfi in the time of St. Paul, and that it was to last l^Ot.) years. 
 Whereas the Papacy, as the gentleman calls our holy religion, has lasted 
 eighteen hundred years, and bids fair for a few more hundreds, brf"iv 
 she reach the consummation of ages ! The numerals on which so 
 much stress was laid by my opponent are the product of every one of 
 fourteen names, and among the rest of God him.itlf ; the winged mon- 
 sters were used by Ezekiel as th< j imagery of the divine, messengers ; 
 the devastations of Mohammed show the ravages of the man "f Sin ; and 
 the various sects and schisms that have afflicted the Church, and torn 
 from it large portions of some nations, while in others she extended her 
 conquests and received new nati >r.s into her fold, are plainly enough 
 marked as the forerunners of Antichrist, who, towards the end of all 
 things, is to war more formidably than ever upon the saints. This is 
 the dread time to which Christ alluded when he said, " When, the S-m nf 
 man will come, think you will he find faith upon the earth ?" (Luke xviii.
 
 APPENDIX. XIX 
 
 8.) That coming event casts its shadow before I Opinion "has supplant- 
 ed faith. Every mountebank, too idle to work, and having just learning 
 enough to deceive, but too proud himself to learn, scales the walls of the 
 sheepfold, usurps the place of pastor over credulous and deluded congre- 
 gations, and, unsent and uncommissioned, preaches his own crude fancies 
 for the word of God. They proscribe authority and arrogate a power 
 which no Pope has ever yet pretended to, and make dupes of whom no ori- 
 ginal can be found among the members of the Catholic Church. They 
 believe an isolated, inconsistent, and often ignorant preacher, whose hand 
 is against every sect, and every sect's hand against him, while Catholics 
 hear the Church of all nations and ages, founded by Christ, and perpetu- 
 ally assisted unto the teaching of all truth by his holy Spirit. It is thus 
 that the Methodists of this city, while Mr. Campbell is fighting against 
 Catholics, as the soi-disant champion of Protestantism, are actually ex- 
 posing himself and " Campbellisin " in stereotype, at the very office where 
 the late discussion is being published. We have seen how the Episco- 
 palians have spurned his advocacy and eschew his errors and yet he is a 
 Bible Christian ; that is to say, he puts it to the rack and makes it say 
 whatever he pleases. This is the antichristian audacity with the words 
 of Scripture, the mystery of iniquity inwardly working, the volcanic lique- 
 faction melting the hills of human pride, and preparing the grave, the 
 catastrophe to which all sectarianism tends, namely, the abyss of infide- 
 lity. ''Think you," says Jesus Christ, "when lie comcth, the Son of man 
 will find faith upon the earth?" 
 
 19th. Waiving the arguments from the history of the Church, or tradi- 
 tion, and as far as the test of reason could be applied to revealed religion, 
 I defied my opponent to find so many clear texts of scripture against any 
 one of our tenets, as I could allege in its favor, and although he labored 
 hard, and became quite hoarse, he could not do so. He most egregiously 
 failed, and took to talking about "drops of grace and scuttle-fish, and 
 JMi ! f" 
 
 30th. He says : " It is then without law, precedent, or authority to say 
 that the passage ' thin is my body' means that bread is converted into 
 flesh ;" that is to say, that Christ means what he says, and that, too, at 
 the most solemn crisis of his mortal life ! This very argument the Uni- 
 tarian will retort upon him, for the words " this is my beloved Son," 
 and my opponent must either give up the great dogma of the divinity of 
 Christ, or turn Catholic, to be able to defend it. 
 
 21st. He says : "St. Clement, St. Ignatius, and St Irenaeus, and all 
 the other saints in the Roman Calendar (did he reflect that the apostles 
 are of the number V) were born too late to sanction any article of faith, 
 or morals, by their vote." And yet We can no otherwise than "by their 
 determine the most important of all questions for a Protestant 
 What, /.y S>'r/f)t>tre f By the side of the foregoing, place the other horn 
 of the dilemma, viz.: "Luther insisted that the epistle of St. James 
 was not inspired Scripture at all, that it was no better than straw ;" and 
 the gentleman will stay sticking on these two horns until doomsday. 
 " The sun and moon and planets " can neither help nor extricate him. 
 Besides, the foregoing language concerning the holy Fathers is offen- 
 sive to Episcopalians us well as to Catholics. What will they say of 
 their " champion "? Will they not say that Alexander Campbell was 
 born too late to teach Bible-readers the religion of the Bible ? 
 
 'JJd. My opponent borrowed largely from the Sermons published in 
 England on "/,/ " He granted himself a plenary license to ap- 
 
 propriate the " oteriilns of thf, furnign tin(n' g'>'l tr<'f;s," in abusing 
 Catholics on this subject,. But does the gentleman not recollect that 
 then- are Catholic divines who furnish us useful hints for despoiling 
 these new-fangled saints of a few of their rays'.'' Mast I tench him a 
 new lesson in theology on Protestant indulgences grunted for money, or
 
 XX APPENDIX. 
 
 something worse, by all the Protestant sects ? Let us come to the proof, 
 and begin with the jolly patriarch Luther. The Scripture says, that 
 they who break their vows Juive damnation, and that it is better not tovow 
 <it all than to break a vow. Luther interpreted these texts to mean the 
 contrary. He gave himself and Catharine Boren an indulgence to break 
 their vows and perpetrate matrimony. What he said in his sermon on 
 marriage, t. v. of his works, "si nolit doinina, veniat ancillrt," I will 
 leave to my worthy opponent to translate. He clubbed with Bucer and 
 Melancthon to wiyh maturely the reasons alleged by Philip, Landgrave 
 of Hesse, for having two wives at one and the same time, and the trio 
 thought the reasons were solid, and they let him have them. This infa- 
 mous indulgence and the deeds belonging to it were published from the 
 original by permission of a descendant of the landgrave. Bucer him- 
 self, who was invited to England by Craumor and Somerset, says the 
 whole business of the Reformation was an indulgence for libertinism. 
 His words are these : " The greater part of the people seemed to have 
 embraced the Gospel, in order to shake off the yoke of discipline and 
 the obligation of fasting, penance, etc., which lay upon them in popery, 
 and to live at their pleasure, enjoying their lusts and lawless appetites 
 without control. Hence, they lent a willing ear to the doctrine that we 
 are saved by faith alone, and not by good works, having no relish for 
 them." Bucer de Regno Christi, lib. i. c. 4. 
 
 The Anabaptists claimed an indulgence from God himself, in quality 
 of his chosen ones, to despoil the impious, viz. : all the rest of mankind 
 of their property. . . . " It is a most pernicious error," gays the 
 Calvinist, Sir Richard Hill, "to distinguish sins according to the fact, 
 and not according to the person." Fletcher's Checks, vol. iii. 
 
 The Church of England has likewise some weighty sins upon her con- 
 science touching this matter. We know what Henry VIII. did with his 
 wives ; how their bl< eding heads stopped up the avenue to a reconcilia- 
 tion with Rome. T/iePope refuted him an indulgence for lore or money ; 
 but Cranmer was less rigid with his majesty. He granted him divorce 
 after divorce, until, like the murderous Herod, his hog and his son, it 
 would have been better for Henry's wife to have been any thing else I 
 But the monarch had to be indulged in these white lies and peccadilloes! 
 Pass we to the Canons of the Church of England ? Sparrow, Anno 
 Domini 1534, p. 134, and 1597, pp. 247-252. The Canons he quotes are 
 on the subject of indulgence* and the use, that is to be made of the iimufy 
 pi /ill for thtm. In the synod of 1640, a Canon was made which autho- 
 rized the employment of commutation money, namely, of such sums as 
 were paid for indulgences from ecclesiastical courts, not only in chari- 
 table, but also in public uses. You would imagine this Canon was writ- 
 ten with a pen that had been used at the Council of Trent, so much 
 does it resemble the language which was translated for us from the de- 
 crees of that Council, by Mr. Kiumont. " 2?o Chancellor, Commissary, 
 or official, shall have power to commute any penance, in whole or in 
 part ; but either, together with the bishop, etc., that he shall give a full 
 and just account of such commutations to the bishop, who shall see 
 that all such moneys shall be disposed of for charitable and public uses 
 according to law satiny always to ecclesiastical officers tluir due and 
 acciutomaibk fees." Can. 14. p. 368 of Sparrow. At this period, says 
 Milner (p. 263), the established clergy were devoting all the money they 
 could any way procure to the war which Charles I. was preparing, in 
 defence of the Church against the Presbyterians of Scotland and Eng- 
 land. A real crusade ! In the "grievances" presented by a committee 
 of the Irish Parliament to this same Charles I., one was, " that several 
 bishops (of the Church of England) received great sums of money for 
 com in Htntioti of penance (that is, for indulgences) which they converted 
 to their own use." Commons Journal, Curry, vol. i. p. 160. How many
 
 APPENDIX. . XXI 
 
 of onr dissenting brethren, attending the late debate, who never heard, 
 much less read, these statements before ! 
 
 2-k\. The gentleman made the people the source of all power, spiritual 
 and temporal. Xo\v, by this rule, the Catholics, having on their side 
 the grand majority of Christians, their voice, according to his maxim, 
 " Vo.r p'lpnli f<>x Dei," should be considered the voice of God. But if, 
 by this adage, he means every separate congregation must settle their 
 doctrines and discipline for themselves, then the voice of one congrega- 
 tion will be the voice of the Devil, and not of God, or they will both be 
 the voice of God, and contradict one another ! ! 
 
 24th. But the most astonishing of all the gentleman's forced admis- 
 sions remains to be told. He, wuo accused Catholics of being hostile-to 
 free governments, declared General Washington and the officers and 
 soldiers of our revolutionary army and all who aided and abetted them, 
 perjurers ! And as nwjJit can never give right, and there is no prescrip- 
 tion where there has been fraud, we are still in a state of perjury and 
 damnable revolt against the mother country, according to the theology 
 of my opponent. I do not believe he thinks so but I drove him, step 
 by step, into the abyss, and, down there, have we heard him make this 
 politico-ecclesiastical profession of faith " Quod optanti mild nemo pro- 
 mittere anderet, en diee attulit ultra." I thought, before the debate 
 began, this would be a poser; but I had no idea he would have so com- 
 mitted himself before the American public, in his zeal to criminate my 
 creed. The different situations in which the Pope was placed, when 
 reference was made to him by the Catholics of England and Germany, 
 when their kings had become tyrants, will be found fully stated in its 
 proper place in the debate. 
 
 I should never end if I undertook to enumerate all the blunders and 
 vices of the gentleman's logic. They are, many of them, transparent 
 to healthy eyes. Such as this logical phenomenon "The Pagan Em- 
 perors and Christian Princes sometimes decided who was the true Pope, 
 when a faction strove to oppose to him an Antipope. But these emperors 
 and kings were not infallible," etc. Now, my friends, it so happened 
 that the Pagan and the Catholic historians, who narrate these facts, take 
 care to state at the same time, as if their hand was guided by the 
 Almighty, for our instruction, that those princes snid, "Let him be Pope 
 whom the majority of the Bishops shall agree to accept." They applied 
 the Catholic principle. In the case of an inferior bishop, they answered, 
 " Let the Bishop of Rome and Italy decide! lie shall be bishop whom 
 tJtcy sliall say." In speaking of the vices of Popes, my worthy opponent 
 always took care to exhibit the darkest side of the picture. I notice 
 this, that, from one case, the audience may learn all, in the instance of 
 Vigilius, who resolutely refused, when made Pope, to do the wrong' 
 which ambition had tempted him (for Satan tempted Christ himself by 
 ambition, when he promised to give him all the kingdoms of the earth 
 and the glory thereof) to promise to the Empress of Constantinople. He 
 suffered every kind of persecution and ill-treatment sooner than acquiesce 
 in her wicked designs. Of the justice of the above remark, we have 
 another illustration in the case of Benedict IX. who was obtruded by 
 his father, Albert, Count of Tusculum, into the Papal chair, at the age 
 of twelve years th> a-je t tclii<-li, Jesus CJirist disputed -trith the doctors 
 in the Y'< tuple, for people then, as now, quoted Scripture for every thing. 
 Now, what are the data of history respecting this matter'.' Why, that the 
 Roman people, clergy, and laity drove him from Rome ; that he retired 
 into a monastery, where he died doing penance for his sins. This con- 
 siderably alters the question. , 
 
 My friends. I must bring this letter to a conclusion, although I have 
 yet many things to say to you and the public But they are enlightened 
 judges, and they will not shut their eyes to the truths which this dis-
 
 XX 11 APPENDIX. 
 
 cussion was tlic first fair opportunity afforded them of seeing. All their 
 lives, they have had odious misrepresentations of our Holy Religion in 
 their hands, Peter Parley, Fox's Book of Martyrs, Key to Popery, etc., 
 etc. They will now learn how much they have been imposed upon ; and 
 if they do not become, what I earnestly pray God they may become, 
 sound, practical, and pious Catholics, they will, at least, perceive that it 
 is perfectly possible to be attached to Protestantism, and yet allow 
 that tlie Catholics have been grossly slandered. .When such men as 
 Southey and Waddington, and Parr and Johnson, not to speak of many 
 others, do us justice, no orthodox disbeliever in our doctrines need to find 
 them or their professors less good than they ought to be. Tl.is city has 
 had lucid proofs what good people the Catholic Religion makes : old Mr. 
 M. Scott, Mr. Patrick Reily, Dr. Hugh Bonner, whose honesty, kind- 
 heartedness, industrious habits, and unblemished morals are embalmed 
 in the memories of all our fellow-citizens. (I was called to the death- 
 bed of the last mentioned exemplary Christian and skilful physician, 
 while writing this letter. Hence I resume and complete it, barely in 
 time for this week's paper.) " By their fruits you shall know them,'' 
 was one of the tests proposed by the Saviour. We appeal to ours. 
 
 Never has a polemic been allowed more advantages than I have allow- 
 ed my opponent. The propositions which he brought into the debate 
 were all of his own choosing. The mode and order of their presentation 
 to the public and in which they were afterwards changed to and fro on 
 the very morn ing <>f the first day's debate were, his ; I did not attack his 
 creed, or any other man's. I waived all the advantages of carrying the 
 war, in military phrase, into the "enemies' territory." I received all 
 his fire, and he affected to consider himself " the great gun of Protes- 
 tantism." If he received a few ghastly wounds, and every one of them 
 fatal to his whole system, it was in the rewound, or because his jnetal 
 was overcharged. His arguments would prove too much. They would 
 annihilate the Bible, because some of its Patriarchs and Kings, and 
 other personages, were bad men. They would destroy Christianity, lor 
 its professors have not always done it credit. They would destroy the 
 Protestant sects, for they included them who are very much like the 
 rest of their frail fellow-creatures. 
 
 You have heard this discussion with a calm, a dignified, and an imper- 
 turbable confidence in the goodness of our cause, which reflect honor 
 upon you, while they have conciliated the esteem of your fellow-citizens, 
 and enhanced my affection for so good a flock. You showed no signs of 
 exultation, hold no meetings, forestalled no man's opinion of the parties, 
 or the questions at issue ! This was as it ought to be. Continue this 
 virtuous, this truly Christian line of conduct Love sincerely and OT- 
 dially your neighbors of every denomination give them good example. 
 Be faithful friends, affectionate husbands, fond fathers, upright business 
 men in a word, be always good Catholics. Praying that God may 
 pour down upon you all his choicest blessings, both in this life and that 
 which is to come I am, etc., 
 
 Your devoted Bishop, 
 
 \ J. B. PUHCELL. 
 
 (From the Catholic Telegraph.) 
 
 IT appears that there are a few honest minds which have not been 
 able to see through the ntyxtiji'-ntiiin craftily thrown around the Liguori 
 affair, in the account given of it by the seven >ri*e men of New- York. 
 The following letter, and particularly the short but pithy statement of 
 Mr. Kimiiont. will effectually expose the fraud of the fraudulent, and 
 dispel the mist from the eyes of the sincere and the unsuspecting. We 
 ask for both an attentive perusal.
 
 APPENDIX. XX111 
 
 CINCINNATI, 27th May, 1837. 
 To THE EDITORS OP THE CATHOLIC TELEGRAPH : 
 
 <JI;NTLEMEN : Allow me to take this mode of expressing my sense of 
 your kind attention in placing in my hands the last number of the 
 Millennial Harbinger, conducted by A. Campbell. From it I learn that 
 the mortified pride of my late rival in debate suffers him not to hold his 
 peace. I am not surprised at it. To have come off victorious from 
 eleven battles, if we may rely on a statement which you republished 
 from some of your exchange papers, and been utterly discomfited, in a 
 twelfth encounter, is not a light affliction ; it is not one which a man of 
 genius and sensibility could be expected, without a hard struggle and 
 considerable querulousne-ss, to endure. Hence, in settling an account 
 with poor human nature, knowing, as I do, the little weaknesses of which 
 it is susceptible, I would not " tith' the mint find rue " I would not 
 treat it with too much rigor ; nor shall I quarrel, on any account, with 
 my friend, if he seek relief from the oppressive sense of his defeat in 
 Bobs, complaints, and tears. A fresh and dangerous wound should not 
 be too hastily cicatrised. It is better to keep it open and running for a 
 time ; the cure will be the more effectual in the end. Of this, I have no 
 doubt, the gentleman ia well aware ; and 1 therefore give him credit for 
 the course which he pursues. For my own part, I was perfectly willing 
 to leave the result of the controversy to the unbiased judgment of the 
 public, and felt no apprehension as to the nature of the verdict ; but as 
 the gentleman has most unwarrantably patched a pretended substan- 
 tiation of the disputed passage from Liguori, at the end of the book, in 
 irhit'!i, c.ri'ept by mutual ctmwnt, i>tliin<j <ru* to he published but what hud 
 been xpoken in the debate, I owe it alike to the public, to the holy cause I 
 advocate, and to myself, still farther to expose the disingeuuousness 
 which marked the conduct of my opponent from the very commencement 
 of the debute. The seven pages called " Mr. Campbell's Conclusion," 
 and published in the Hni'l>in;n >, after having been, far more for Mr. C.'s 
 interest than for mine, excluded from the printed report of the debate, 
 call for a large proportion of the censure which it is now my turn to 
 inflict. 
 
 And 1st. OF THE DISPUTED PASS.UJK FROM LIGUORI. I must confess 
 that I was exceedingly shocked by the coarseness :md indelicacy of the 
 charge made, on the pretended authority of the saint, by Mr. Campbell, 
 in presence of so promiscuous an audience, and of so many ladies. He 
 certainly must have felt that his cause was growing desperate when he 
 resorted to such an ungentlemanly stratagem to hide his overthrow. It 
 is painful for me to proceed in the duty of exposing all its foulness ; but 
 I must not shrink from a task which the gentleman's ignorance, whether 
 sincere or counterfeit, has imposed upon me. On his own head the 
 penalty. 
 
 I beg the reader to have the patience to examine this matter thorough- 
 ly, and for this purpose to refer to the first introduction of the imputed 
 doctrine of Liguori, touching clerical concubinage, as found towards the 
 einl of Mr. Campbell's speech, p 218 of the "Debate." The text and 
 the comment there read as follows: 
 
 " A bishop, however poor lie may be, cannot appropriate to himself 
 pecuniary fines without the license of the apostolical see. But he 
 ought to apply them to pious uses, which the Council of Trent has laid 
 upon nou-resident clergymen, or upon those clergymen who keep nieces," 
 Ligor. Kp. Doc. Mor. p. 444. (Synopsis, p. 294.) 
 
 " Now, if a priest should keep a niece, it is a very expiable and trifling 
 offence, but .should he marry a wife he must be excommunicated for- 
 ever ! Thus the Roman Catholic rule of faith treats the Bible, and 
 annuls at pleasure every law and institution of heaven !" 
 
 The kccyiny of it niiicc is the horrid crime of INCEST, a species of guilt
 
 XXIV APPENDIX. 
 
 still more atrocious than concubinage, bad as that most assuredly is. I 
 now ask the reader to look mew at the extract from the Moral The- 
 ology of Liguori, as endorsed by the seven New-York pardons, or at any 
 other produced by Mr. Campbell daring or since the debate, and see 
 let, whether there is one ir>>nl to make good the infamous allegation 
 that the Catholic Church allows priests to keep uicns, that is to commit, 
 the enormous crime of Incest, on payment of a, fine? I ask for a " yes" 
 or " no." Is such a word to be found in any of the Extracts? And if 
 not, what must he begin to think of my friend's intentions in subs it u - 
 ing for one base crime another far exceeding it in enormity and moral 
 turpitude ? 
 
 2d. Where, in the Extract from Liguori, is it called " n-ry exp 
 cud trifl in;/ offence," I will not say, " to keep a niece," but to be guilty of 
 the sin of (oncubinage ? By a reference to p. 219 of the Debate, it will be 
 seen that I emphatically denied that a solitary passage could be found in 
 any part of the works of Liguori, of which there were three editions in 
 my possession, from which it could be either proved or fairly inferred 
 that the Church allowed priests to keep concubines on payment of a line, 
 or that she considered a single sin of that nature as a very > .r; >i< t!>l<- and 
 trifling offence? I now repeat the declaration, and ask again, where, in 
 the extract purporting to be from Liguori, does it appear that the Church 
 looks on such a crime as a trifling, an expiable, or, under any drc u in- 
 stances whatsoever, an allowable offence? Professor Biggs having seen 
 at a glance what party was likely to triumph by tiie translation of a pas- 
 sage in Liguori's works, to which I referred him, and apprehensive of 
 that storm of indignation which, as I shall presently show, burst from 
 Mr. Campbell on the intrepid and the honest Kinmont, prudently declined 
 to favor the audience with the English version. None of the other five 
 learned and independent citizens whom I took the liberty of calling upon 
 to decide the issue of the fact, heard or cared to accept the invitation. 
 Mr. Kinmont being a professional teacher, favorably known to the com- 
 munity, and, above all, at least as much opposed to Roman Catholicism 
 as to Campbellism, was, all things considered, the fittest person that 
 could be selected to allay the intense anxiety of the audience by the de- 
 sired translation. But I prefer to narrate the circumstances under which 
 Mr. K. appeared on the stage, in the words of Mr. Campbell, as I 
 find them in the Harbinger of the present month. A more uncalled-for 
 and wanton outrage than what Mr. C. thus gratuitously offers to 
 a gentleman who, to oblige the audience and the parties interested, as- 
 sumed a task which I was far from believing to b* congenial to his feel- 
 ings, has, perhaps, never been paralleled in the annals of literary or re- 
 ligious controversy. It only evinces the uncontrollable character of Mr. 
 Campbell's mind, the violence of his passions, and the feebleness of the 
 restraints which Religion and courtesy have been able to impose upon a 
 man of his pretensions to usher in the new gospel light a Millennium of 
 more than human virtue on a benighted and corrupt world. 
 
 ' The bishop, for effect, called first on Professor Biggs to examine nine 
 volumes of Liguori for the reference. The pro:cssor seeing a clashing 
 between the pages of the edition of the copy on the table and tliat from 
 which Mr. Smith quoted, prudently declined the examination. He 
 then called upon Mr. Kinmont, of high classical standing, and handed to 
 him the volumes in question. He was to have a day to examine and re- 
 port. In due time, after an emphatic annunciation or two, on the part of 
 the bishop, Mr. Kinmont appears upon the sstage. An awful silence 
 reigns, the Bishop holds the candle erect by the side of the Roman 
 Oracle. A breathless suspense, as when a judge is about to pronounce 
 sentence of death upon some unfortunate criminal, shows how the pub- 
 lic mind can be wrought up to intense feeling, to a glowing heat, by a 
 single spark. What an ebullition ! Mr. Kiuinoiit coughs, throws his
 
 APPBXDIX. XXV 
 
 eloquent eyes around the crowded galleries, and, before he reads the 
 ratal doom Of ' Smith, Slocura and Co.,' and justifies the St. Liguori from 
 r-uch ].n itanc hands, he, by virtue of the authority with which he was in- 
 v.-strd by the Baron Swedenborg, Prince of Corresponding Shadows, 
 kindly says, ' These gentlemen (the bishop and myself) are fighting about 
 shadows.' What a consolation! And by candle-light too! How easy 
 then to find them ! After this free-will offering to the illustrious Baron, 
 Mr. Kinmont read as reported by the bishop." 
 
 To give to this subject all the connection and continuity to enable the 
 reader, having all the i'acts of the case spread out lucidly before him, to 
 conic to a correct conclusion, I here subjoin the remarks of Mr. Kin- 
 moat. 
 
 " Mil. KIXMOXT. I am called in my professional character simply, a:id 
 have no part or lot in this debate. (Mr. K. is understood to be a Sweden- 
 borgian.) 1 sincerely believe theyarw disputing about shadows, and that 
 both parties are equally in the wrong ; but I will do what I can to assiso 
 in clearing up the difficulty of fact, I find it stated in Samuel Smith's 
 work, and marked as a quotation from Liguori under the article headed 
 ' concubines of clergy. ' '' 
 
 Mr. K. here read from the Synopsis as translated by Smith, and thus 
 continued : 
 
 " Tliis is the text and commentary as I find it in Mr. Smith's book. 
 This is marked as Liguori, p. 444. If taken from Liguori at all, it is 
 taken from a different edition. The present purports to be a complete 
 copy of the works of Liguori. It bears no mark of being an expurgated 
 edition. It is said to be an edition of ichdt ic is said and written before 
 with additions. On turning to the place where he treats of fines and 
 punishments inflicted for concubinage, he says that priests guilty of this 
 oifeuee were, after two ineffectual reprimands, to be degraded from their 
 functions, lie refers to the Council of Trent, and states what that coun- 
 cil decreed ; Smith throws us on Liguori, and Liguori ou the Council of 
 Trent There is nothing in Liguori relating to that subject but this. 
 The council was called about the year 1342. This edition of the decrees 
 of the council was edited by t'.ie council itself. 1 have had an abstract 
 taken which I will read. It would take some time to read the original, 
 and I have a translation made by one of my scholars. I will read this. 
 
 " In the records of the decrees of the Council of Trent, Session 23th, 
 chap. 14th, there is described the method of proceeding iu the cases of 
 clergy who are guilty of concubinage. 
 
 " After showing the scandal and enormity of this sin, especially in 
 clergy, whose integrity of life should recommen 1 and impress the pre- 
 cepts of religion and of the church, the sacred synod forbids that any 
 individual holding the clerical office shall keep at his house, or else where, 
 any mistress or unchaste woman, or cohabit with any such, under the 
 penalty of having enforced against him tae sacred canons and ecclesiasti- 
 cal statutes regarding that matter. It is, then, especially enacted that 
 if, when admonished by their superiors, they shall not desist from all 
 such unlawful and forbidden acts, they shall be deprived of the third pnrt 
 of all their revenues and ecclesiastical dues ; and if, still persevering in 
 their course, they shall not even heed a s(ri>>td admonition, they shall be 
 deprived of (ill their ecclesiastical revenue, and suspended from the ad- 
 ministration of ecclesiastical functions ; and if, during this suspension, 
 they shall continue obstinate and incorrigible they shall be declared alto- 
 gether unfit and incompetent to exercise any spiritual office whatever be- 
 longing to the church ; unless after a clear and unequivocal amendment 
 of life, the church should think proper to withdraw the disqualification, 
 and allow them to resume their former station of honor and trust. But 
 if, after the resumption of the duties of their office, they should resort 
 to those impure practices which they had abandoned, besides the inflic-
 
 XXVI APPENDIX. 
 
 tion of the above-named penalties, an act of excommunication with its 
 sword of justice shall cut them off, as dead branches, from the body of 
 the faithful and church of the living God, And it is farther enacted 
 that no appeal or exemption shall hinder the execution of any of these 
 de -rees, but that they shall be summarily executed, at the will of the 
 bishop, after he has ascertained the existence of the enormities. A simi- 
 lar provision in its effect and spirit is made with relation to bishops 
 themselves, but the order of proceeding is different. 
 
 " This is in substance the provision of the decree of the Council of 
 Trent, Ses. 2o, chap. 14." 
 
 Is there in this re pert of the horror inspired and the dread penalties 
 d< creed by the Council of Trent, as quoted by Liguori, and translated by 
 Mr. Kinmont, aught to give as much as a shadow of truth to the allega- 
 tion of Mr. Campbell, thfit the Catholic, Church considers the sin of con- 
 cubinage to b a veryexpiablt and trifling offence, or allvwtUc on payment 
 <J'"fi'te"? Is the deprivation of ecclesiastical revenues and dues; is 
 suspension from ecclesiastical functions and from the exercise of any 
 spiritual office whatever belonging to the church ; is an act of excom- 
 munication, with its sword of justice cutting them off as dead branches 
 from the body of the faithful and church of the living God, to be con- 
 sidered as evidence that the Catholic Church regards concubinage " <u a 
 r ri/ c.rpinble and trifling offence, or alloicable on payment of a fine" ? Can 
 any thing be more opposed to the truth, if we accept the bad faith which 
 has made the assertion? The effect of the denouement acted like au 
 electric .-hock throughout the audience. Mr. Campbell, perceiving how 
 strongly the tide of the people's indignation was setting against him, en- 
 deavored, in the midst of some confusion, which then, for the first time 
 fiisiifd, to obtain a hearing. I promised to allow him all the extra time 
 which lie should require on the following day, and the meeting ad- 
 journed. 
 
 The public are aware of the steps which the gentleman has since taken 
 to rally his routed forces, and appear once more with a show of strength 
 upon the field. These may be reduced to two. First, the renihYate pro- 
 cured from the seven New-York parsons. Secondly, the certificate sub- 
 joined from Mr. Kinmont. Let us see whether either of these, or both, 
 can bolster his tottering cause. 
 
 So much ignorance and imbecility as are displayed in the letter from 
 Mr. Smith to Mr. Emmons, containing the certificate of the parsons, 
 could scarcely be displayed in the same quantity of matter, on any other 
 subject. It is verbatim tt litt rotim as follows : 
 
 "The obnoxious passages, then, which the Ri.mMt Bishop of Cin- 
 cinnati calls heaven and earth to witness are not to be found in the works 
 of Liguori, is the following : 
 
 " A Bishop, however poor he may be, cannot appropriate to himself 
 pecuniary fines, without the license of the Apostolical See. But he ought 
 to apply them to pious uses. Much less can he apply those fines to any 
 thing else but pious uses, which the Council of Trent has laid upon non- 
 resident Clergymen, or upon those Clergymen itfio keep Concubines." 
 Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444. 
 
 This passage I will now give in the Latin, as it stands on the 444th 
 page of the 8th volume of the " MORAL THEOLOGY OF ALPHONSCS DE 
 LIGI OHIO," from whose work the extract was made. The words are as 
 follows : 
 
 " Mulctas pecuuiarias Episcopus sibi addicere non potest, quantumvis 
 pauper sit, sine licentia Sedis Apostolicse [ut ex pluribus arguments S. 
 Congregar, evincitur in Tract De Syu. Dioec. L. 10 C. 10. X. I.J Sed de- 
 bent in usus pios expendi. Multo Magis non possunt nisi in pios usus 
 npplicari ill mttlctee, quas Tridentinum inflixit Clericis non residenti- 
 bus, aut coucubinariis. Ligor. Epit. Doc. Mor. p. 444.
 
 APPENDIX. XXV11 
 
 The words included in the brackets were not translated merely because 
 I did not wish to encumber the " SYNOPSIS'" (as I have observed in the 
 " PREFACE OF THE SYNOPSIS ") with too many of the authorities quoted 
 by Liguori. I shall now, however, translate the above words in the 
 brackets, muclij I know, to the discomfiture of his Reverence the Romish 
 Bishop of Cincinnati. The words in the brackets, therefore, translated, 
 are as follows : ["as is evident from many arguments of the Holy G>n- 
 gregation, in the Treatise respecting the Diocesan Synods, Book 10, 
 Chapter 10, Number 2."] 
 
 Here, we have not only the authority of St. Liguori, but also that of 
 the " Holy Congregation of Rites." 
 
 Since the subject is now to be probed to the bottom, we will also 
 translate the contracted words which I transferred into the " Synopsis," 
 as I found them in the original. The words to which I allude are the 
 terminating ones of the disputed passage, as follows : " Ligor. Ep. Doc. 
 Mor. p. 444," which, translated, stands thus: "From the work of 
 Liguori, under the head of ' An Epitome of the Moral Doctrine,' page 
 444." 
 
 In order to render the testimony still more striking, it is important to 
 observe that this " Epitome of the Moral Doctrine," to which Liguori al- 
 ludes, is an epitome compiled by no less a personage than Pope Benedict 
 XIV. , as we are informed by Liguori himself, in the 301st page of the 
 8th volume of his " Moral TlMology." 
 
 That the previous Latin words are truly and faithfully the words of St. 
 Liguori, and fairly extracted from 8th volume, p. 444, is duly certified 
 by the following learned gentlemen. 
 
 " We, the undersigned, have carefully examined the foregoing extracts 
 from the Moral Theology of St. Liguori, and having compared them with 
 the original Latin copy of that work, now before us, we do hereby certify 
 that the said extracts are verbatim, truly and correctly given by Mr. 
 Smith. 
 
 " In this certificate, we include, particularly, the passage disputed by 
 Bishop Purcell, which is contained in Mr. Smith's "Synopsis," p. 294, 
 par. 7; headed " Concubines of the Clergy." 
 
 " DUNCAN BAKU, Pastor of the M'Dougal street Baptist Church. 
 JNO. KENNADAY, Pastor of the Methodist Episcopal Church. 
 SPENCER H. CONE, Pastor of the, Oliver street Baptist Church. 
 SAMUEL F. B. MORSE, Prof. e f c., in the University of the City 
 
 of New- York. 
 WM. GREEN, JR., Deacon in the Sixth Free Cong. Church, 
 
 N. T. 
 
 C. G. PINNEY, Pastor of the Church in the Broadway Taber- 
 nacle." 
 
 The first sentence of this letter contains a nickname and a fault of 
 grammar, evincing, from the outset, the anger and perturbation of the 
 writer's mind. But let these small matters pass. I now repeat the ques- 
 tion, where in these extracts is it said that concubinage is a trifdng 
 offence and allowable on payment of a fine ? Read the letter attentively ; 
 examine it minutely ; is there one word in it that sanctions such an im- 
 putation ? " Honor thy father and thy mother, that thou ma vest be 
 long-lived upon the land " is a divine commandment, from which ir would 
 be just as fair to conclude that we may dishonor fathers and mothers on 
 the condition of being short-lived in the land, as to force upon the above 
 extracts a signification which they were never intended to convey to 
 which they are diametrically opposite. 
 
 But I have not yet said what, to most readers, as well as to all who have 
 taken an interest in this controversy, will, probably, appear more start- 
 ling than all that has preceded it, namely, that Smith and the seven New- 
 York parsons and Mr. Campbell have either deceived or been deceived 
 themselves, in representing this extract as taken from the Moral Theo-
 
 XXVUI APPENDIX. 
 
 logy of St. Liguori. IT is NOT TAKEN FROK IT. Mr. Smith knew tliis, 
 bat unwilling to expose either himself or Mr. Campbell, and yet afraid 
 tlsat I would expose both them and their Rev. accomplices, mark what 
 he does. He gets the seven parsons to sign a certificate that the forego- 
 ing extracts are verbatim, truly and correctly given by Mr. Smith, from 
 the Moral Theology of Liguori, and yet, in the inexplicable confusion 
 of hie mind, tells us, on the self-same page, that " it is important to ob- 
 eerve that this ' Epitome of the Moral Doctrine,' to which Liguori AL- 
 LUDES, was not composed by Liguori at all I That it was compiled by 
 Pope Benedict XIV. ! ! and that too we are informed/' says Mr. Smith, 
 " by Ligaori himself (which is utterly incorrect) in the 301st page of the 
 8th volume of his Moral Theology ! ! ! " 
 
 Now, the Epitome, or Synopsis, was not composed by Liguori, nor yet 
 was it compiled by Benedict XIV., but from the works of Benedict 
 XIV., by a personage different from either, viz., Mansi, Archbishop of 
 Lucca, as, not Liguori, BUT THE PRINTER, who had this Synopsis stitched 
 to the work of Liguori, to make the* eighth volume of a uniform size with 
 the other volumes of the series, informs us (Typographus Lectori) on 
 the 300th (not 301st) page of the 8th volume. Thus it is seen, 1st, 
 what a dishonorable farce has been played off on the parsons and all 
 concerned ; 2d, that the extract is not from Liguori's Moral Theology ; 
 3d, that such as it now confessedly is, a fragment of a selection made by 
 Mansi from the works of Benedict XIV., stitched by the printer at the 
 end of the Moral Theology, it does not, EITHER IN LETTER OR IN SPIRIT, 
 give the slightest coloring of truth to the odious representation which 
 none but a polluted mind could make, that the Catholic Church looks 011 
 clerical concubinage as a very expiable and trifling offence, or ever did 
 permit it on payment of a fine. No ! were the erring individuals as dear 
 to her as Lucifer, the brightest angel in Heaven before his fall, was to 
 God, the Catholic Church would pluck him from the sanctuary which he 
 profaned, and from the administration of sacraments which he dared to 
 consecrate with sacrilegious hand, and cast him, as Michael did the rebel 
 angel, " from the body of the faithful, and Church of the living God." 
 
 The second certificate is that of Mr. Kinmont. The joy which it gave 
 to Mr. Campbell must have been affected : it cannot last forever. What 
 follows must quickly put an end to it. 
 
 " Since the publication of the debate on the Roman Catholic Religion, 
 between A. Campbell and Bishop Purcell, many persons have asked me 
 several to make the statement in writing whether the Latin passage 
 quoted from Liguori, in the last page in the book (and a translation of 
 which is given), is to be regarded as a tacit permission of the Council of 
 Trent, that clergymen may keep concubines, on the condition of paying 
 a stipulated fine? Most unquestionably it is not so to be regarded ; and 
 any person may satisfy himself on that point, who will turn to pages 
 319-20, where, on being called on, I gave an abstract of the decree of the 
 Council here referred to by Liguori. If he finds any thing in the decree 
 in the shape of encouragement or connivance, in regard to the offence, 
 his mind must be strangely warped by prejudice. 
 
 " It might be surmised by the insulated extract, that the Church drew 
 a revenue from the vices of her priesthood, and therefore winked at 
 them ; but read the extract and the decree together, and you will be 
 convinced that the inference is entirely gratuitous. There is certainly 
 nothing in the passage here quoted, or in any one in Liguori (which I 
 could find), to countenance the allegation, that Priests may keep Concu- 
 iines by paying a fine, unless it be considered that to punish an offence 
 is to permit or encourage it. A. KINMONT. 
 
 " CINCINNATI, May 22, 1837." 
 
 Grateful, gentlemen, for the use of your columns, I remain, etc., 
 
 f JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 Bislwp of Cincinnati.
 
 TO THE PUBLIC. 
 
 The Publishers being well aware of the importance of obtain- 
 ing a full and correct report of this discussion, have spared no 
 pains nor expense to effect this object. 
 
 They employed two gentlemen well qualified as reporters. 
 
 From the joint notes of these, they furnished each of the 
 parties with a copy of his part of the report for revision, with 
 the express understanding, that nothing should be added or sub- 
 tracted to make their speeches different from what they were 
 when originally delivered. 
 
 After being put in type, a proof sheet of all was sent to 
 each, for his last corrections. 
 
 Believing, that by this means, the desideratum sought, has 
 been obtained, this work, is now commended to an enquiring, 
 intelligent, and reading community. 
 
 THE PUBLISHERS. 
 
 CINCINNATI, Feb. 1837.
 
 INTRODUCTION 
 
 To introduce the following report to the reader, we lay be- 
 foie him the correspondence of the parties, which immediately 
 preceded the debate. 
 
 LETTER FROM MR. CAMPBELL. 
 
 CINCINNATI, JAN. llth, 1837. 
 Bishop Pur cell Respected Sirt 
 
 At two o'clock this morning, after a tedious and perilous journey of 
 ten days, I safely arrived in this city. The river having become innaviga- 
 ble in consequence of the ice, I was compelled to leave it and take to the 
 woods, about two hundred miles above. By a zigzag course which car- 
 ried me to Chillicothe and Columbus, sometimes on foot, sometimes on a 
 sleigh, and finally by the mail stage, I accomplished a land tour of two 
 hundred and forty miles, equal to the whole distance from Wheeling to 
 Cincinnati. 
 
 After this my travel's history, I proceed to state, that it was with pleas- 
 ure I received either from you or some of my friends, a copy of the Daily 
 Gazette, on the 22d ult. intimating your fixed purpose of meeting me in a 
 public discussion of my propositions, or of the points at issue between Ro- 
 man Catholics and Protestants. This, together with your former declara- 
 tions in favor of full and free discussion, is not only in good keeping with 
 the spirit of the age, and the genius of our institutions, but fully indicative 
 of a becoming confidence and sincerity in your own cause. Thjs frank and 
 manly course, permit me to add, greatly heightens my esteem for you. 
 
 Now, sir, that I am on the premises, I take the earliest opportunity of 
 informing you of my arrival, and of requesting you to name the time and 
 place in which it may be most convenient for you to meet me for the pur- 
 pose of arranging the preliminaries. It has occurred to me, that it would 
 be useful and commendable to have an authentic copy of our discussion, 
 signed by our own hands, and published with our consent and that, is 
 might have all the authority and credit which we could give it, it would be
 
 VI INTRODUCTION. 
 
 expedient to sell to some of the publishers in this city, the copyright, and 
 let them employ a stenographer or stenographers to report faithfully the 
 whole matter. 
 
 It will also secure for such a work a more extensive reading, and conse- 
 quently a wider range of usefulness, and I have no doubt, be most accep- 
 table to our feelings, and every way reputable, to devote the profits, or the 
 proceedss of the copyright, to some benevolent institution, on which we 
 may both agree ; or in case of a difference on a fitting institution, that we 
 select each an object to which we can most conscientiously assign all the 
 profits of such publication. 
 
 In order to these ends, it will be necessary, that we timously arrange all 
 the preliminaries, and as many persons are now in waiting, I trust it may 
 be every way practicable, during the day, to come to a full understanding 
 on the whole premises. 
 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 Your ob't. serv't. 
 
 A. CAMPBELL. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL'S REPLY. 
 
 CiirciifHATT, llth JANUARY, 1837. 
 Mr. Alexander Campbell My Dear Sir t 
 
 I sincerely sympathise with you on the tediousness and perils of your 
 journey, from Bethany to Cincinnati. This is truly a dreadful time to 
 embark on our river, or to traverse our state. The sun's bright face I 
 have not seen for several days ; I hope when the forth-coming discussion 
 is once finished, our minds, like his orb, will be less dimmed by the clouds, 
 and radiate the light and vital warmth without which this world would be 
 a desert waste. 
 
 If it meet your convenience, I shall be happy to meet you, at any time 
 in the morning, or in the afternoon, at the Athen.Tum. 
 
 Your proposition respecting the sale of an authentic copy of the discus- 
 sion to a publisher, and the proceeds, all expenses deducted, applied to the 
 benefit of some charitable institution, or institutions, meets my hearty con- 
 currence. And I propose that one half the avails of sale be given to the 
 " Cincinnati Orphan Asylum," and the other half to the " St. Peter's fe- 
 male Orphan Asylum," corner of Third and Plum streets, Cincinnati. 
 
 With best wishes for your eternal welfare, and that of all those who sin- 
 ceiely seek for the truth as it is in Christ Jesus, I remain 
 Very respectfully yours, 
 
 f JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 
 Bishop of Cincinnati.
 
 INTRODUCTION. VU 
 
 The parties met in the Athenaeum at 2 o'clock, P. M. of Jan. 
 lith., when after some debate on the question, Who sliall b& 
 the reapondejit ? they finally agreed to the following 
 
 RULES OF DISCUSSION. 
 
 1. We agree that the copy-right of the discussion shall be sold to some 
 bookseller, who shall have it taken down by a stenographer, and that all the 
 avails of the copy -right shall be equally divided between two such public 
 charities as Bishop Purcell and Mr. Campbell shall respectively designate, 
 
 2. That the discussion shall take place in the Sycamore-street meeting 
 house ; and it shall continue seven days, exclusive of Sunday, commencing 
 to-day, (Friday, 13th) from half past 9 o'clock, A. M. to half past 12, and 
 from 3 to 5 P. M., each day. 
 
 3. Mr. Campbell shall open the discussion each session, and Bishop Pur- 
 cell respond. During the morning session the first speech of each shall not 
 exceed an hour, nor the second half an hour. In the afternoon each speaker 
 shall occupy only half an hour. 
 
 4. This discussion shall be under the direction of a board of fire modera- 
 tors; of whom each party shall choose two, and these a fifth: any three of 
 whom shall constitute a quorum. 
 
 5. The duties of the moderators shall be to preserve order in the assem- 
 bly, and to keep the parties to the question. 
 
 f JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 A. CAMPBELL. 
 
 In order to meet, as far as possible, the arrangements entered 
 into for conducting the contemplated debate for seven days, Mr. 
 Campbell, according to agreement, sent to bishop Purcell, on 
 Thursday morning, Jan. 12, the following statement of the 
 
 POINTS AT ISSUE. 
 
 1. The Roman Catholic Institution, sometimes called the 'Holy, Apos- 
 tolic, Catholic, Church,' is not now, nor was she ever, catholic, apostolic, 
 or holy ; but is a sect in the fair import of that word, older than any other 
 sect now existing, not the ' Mother and Mistress of all Churches,' but an 
 apostacy from the only true, holy, apostolic, and catholic church of Christ.'' 
 
 2. Her notion of apostolic succession is without any foundation in the 
 Bible, in reason, or in fact ; an imposition of the most injurious consequence*, 
 built upon unscriptural and anti-scriptural traditions, resting wholly upon the 
 opinions of interested and fallible men. 
 
 3. She is not uniform in her faith, or united in her members ; but muta 
 ble and fallible, OF any other sect of philosophy or religion Jewish, Turk-
 
 yiii INTRODUCTION. 
 
 ish, or Christian a confederation of sects with a politico-ecclesiastic 
 head. 
 
 4. She is the "Babylon" of John, the "Man of sin of Paul, and the 
 Empire ofithe "Youngest Horn" of Daniel's Sea Monster. 
 
 5. Her notions of purgatory, indulgences, auricular confession, remission 
 of sins, transubstantiation, supererogation, &c., essential elements of her sys- 
 tem, are immoral in their tendency, and injurious to the well-being of soci- 
 ety, religious and political. 
 
 6. Notwithstanding her pretensions to have given us the Bible, and faith in 
 it, we are perfectly independent of her for our knowledge of that book, and 
 its evidences of a divine original. 
 
 7. The Roman Catholic religion, if infallible and unsusceptible of reforma- 
 tion, as alleged, is essentially anti-American, being opposed to the genius of 
 all free institutions, and positively subversive of them, opposing the general 
 reading of the scriptures, and the diffusion of useful knowledge among 
 the whole community, so essential to liberty and the permanency of gocJ 
 government. 
 
 A. CAMPBELL 
 CIHCIKXATI, 12th January, 1887,
 
 DEBATE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 
 
 REPORT. 
 
 The parties met according to appointment, on the 13th January, 1837, at the 
 Sycamore Street Meeting House, at halt" past nine o'clock, A. M. 
 
 MODERATORS. 
 
 MESSRS. SAMUEL LEWIS, THOMAS J. BIGGS, WILLIAM DISNEY, JOHN RO- 
 GERS AND J. W. PlATT. 
 
 WILLIAM DIBNEY CHAIRMAN. 
 
 Mr. Samuel Lewis, having called the meeting to order, read the rules of th 
 Debate, as agreed upon between the parties, and the propositions advanced by 
 Mr. Campbell for discussion. He requested the audience to refrain from any 
 audible signs of approbation or disapprobation, as it would interrupt the debate. 
 
 Mr. Campbell then opened the debate as follows: 
 
 JHy Christian friends and Fellow- Citizens 
 
 I appear before you at this time, by the good providence of our 
 Heavenly Father, in defence of the truth, and in explanation of the 
 great redeeming, regenerating and ennobling principles of Protestant- 
 ism, as opposed to the claims and pretensions of the Roman Catholic 
 church. 1 come not here to advocate the particular tenets of any 
 sect, but to defend the great cardinal principles of Protestantism. 
 
 Considerable pains appear to have been taken by the gentleman 
 who is rny opponent on this occasion, to impress upon the minds of 
 the public the idea that he stands here in the attitude of a defender 
 of Catholicism, and to represent me as its assailant. I am sorry to 
 say that even some Protestants have contributed to give that color to 
 this debate; for I saw in this morning's Gazette an article, in which 
 I am represented as conducting a crusade against the Roman Catho- 
 lics. Its editor appears to have his sympathies morbidly enlisted in 
 their cause. He is very sympathetic indeed, in behalf (if the Roman 
 Catholic religion. Every agony the mother church feels is a pang 
 to him ; for every groan she heaves he has a bottle full of tears ready 
 to be poured out. I will not stop to enquire whether they are politi- 
 cal or religious tears. I have to do with the worthy gentleman here, 
 who has represented me as having volunteered to come forward with 
 an attack upon the Catholic chu.ch. 
 
 I need Scarcely inform that portion of my audience, who were pre- 
 sent at the last meeting of the College of Teachers in this city, that 
 B) far from its being true that I made an attack in the first instance, 
 
 2 a
 
 10 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 upon the Roman Catholic church, the gentleman did first assail the 
 Protestants. 
 
 He says in the Gazette of the 19th of Dec. 183G, thatlamabold and 
 wanton challenger; but a word of comment on this document will 
 shew that it is quite the other way. 
 
 The issue was made in the first instance in the College of Teach- 
 ers. You will recollect that when Dr. J. L. Wilson read an oration 
 on the subject of universal education, the gentleman arose, and in that 
 Protestant house, and before a Protestant assembly, directly and pos- 
 itively protested against allowing the book which Protestants claim 
 lo contain their religion, to be used in schools. He uttered a tirade 
 against the Protestant modes of teaching, and against the Protestant 
 influence upon the community. This was the origin of the dispute. 
 Had it not been for the assertions made by the gentleman on that oc- 
 casion, we should not have heard one word of a discussion. 
 
 It is true that the propositions just read may present me in the at 
 titude of what he is pleased to call an assailant of the Roman church. 
 But the question is how has the controversy originated ? And let 
 me ask, how is it possible for the gentleman to prove that, because, 
 a year ago, I made some answer to an attack on Protestantism from 
 the state of Illinois, and called for some more reputable antagonist, 
 that on this account he did not assail Protestantism, and that I am 
 the assailant in this case? Does my having been plaintiff in that 
 case make me necessarily plaintiff in every other case? Does my 
 having told him that I stood prepared to discuss the question at large 
 with any creditable gentleman [Here Mr. C. was interrupted by the 
 moderators as not speaking to the point.] I submit to the decision 
 of the moderators. I thought it dne to myself, that the public should 
 know precisely the attitude in which the gentleman and myself stand 
 in this matter. I stand here as the defender of Protestantism, and 
 not as the assailant of Catholicism. I wished to exonerate myself 
 from such an imputation. But as the gentlemen have decided that 
 we proceed at once to the question, let us begin and examine the first 
 proposition. It is as follows : 
 
 " PROP. I. The Roman Catholic Institution, sometimes called the Holv, 
 Apostolic, Catholic, Church,' is not now, nor was she ever, catholic, apostolic, or 
 holv ; but is a sect in the fair import of that word, older than anv other sect now 
 existing, not the ' Mother and Mistress of all Churches,' but an ajiostacy from 
 the only true, hoi) 1 , apostolic, and catholic church of Christ." 
 
 As this is the place and time for logic rather than rhetoric, 1 will 
 proceed to define the meaning of the important terms contained in 
 this proposition. The subject is the Roman Catholic Institution. 
 This institution, notwithstanding its large pretensions, 1 affirm, can 
 be proved clearly to be a sec/, in the true and proper import of the 
 term. Though she call herself the mother and mistress of all churches, 
 she is, strictly speaking, a sect, and no more than a sect. We now 
 propose to adduce proof to sustain this part of the proposition. 
 
 In the first place, the very term Roman Catholic indicates that she 
 is a sect, and not the ancient, universal and apostolic church, the mo- 
 ther and mistress of all churches. If she be the only universal or 
 Catholic church, why prefix the epithet Roman? A Roman Catholic 
 church is a contradiction. Trve word Catholic means universal the 
 vord Roman means something local and particular. What sense or
 
 HUMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 11 
 
 meaning is there in a particular universal church? It is awkward on 
 another account. If she pretends to be considered the only true and 
 universal church of Christ among all nations and in all times, why 
 call herself Roman? To say the Roman Catholic church of Ameri- 
 ca, is just as absurd as to say the Philadelphia church of Cincinnati, 
 the London church of Pittsburgh, the church of France of the 
 United States. The very terms that she chooses indicates that sue 
 cannot be the universal church. 
 
 It will not help the difficulty to call her the Church of Rome. These 
 words indicate a sect and only a sect, as much as the words Roman 
 Catholic. They signify strictly, only the particular congregations 
 meeting in that place. 
 
 The Roman Catholic historians endeavor to reconcile this discre- 
 pancy of terms by saying that, though those particular congregations 
 are meant, in their larger sense the terms are used to designate all 
 those congregations, scattered throughout the world, who are in com- 
 munion with the church of Rome. Thus testifies Du Pin 
 
 " It is true, that at the present time, the name of the church of Rome, is giv- 
 eo to the Catholic church, and that these two terms pass for synonymous. 
 
 " Hut in antiquity no more was intended by the name of the church of Rome, 
 than the church of the city of Rome, and the popes (bishops) in their subscrip 
 lion? or superscriptions, look simply to the quality of bishops of Rome. Tne 
 Greek schismatics seem to be the first who gave the name of the church of 
 Rome to all the churches of the west, whence the Latins made use of this to dis- 
 tinguish the churches which communicated with the church of Rome, from the 
 Greeks who were separated from her communion. From this came the custom 
 to give the name of the church of Rome to the Catholic church. But the other 
 churches did not from this lose their name or their author'!)'. " 
 
 I shall hereafter give the day and date of this separation, when she 
 received this sectarian designation and became a sect, in the proper 
 acceptation of that term. It may, perhaps, appear that it was not 
 only unscriptural, but dishonorable ; as opprobrious as ever were the 
 terms Lutheran or Protestant. 
 
 But suppose we call her " Catholic" alone; and her advocates now 
 endeavor to impress the idea that she is no longer to be called " Ro- 
 man Catholic," but Catholic, this term equally proves her a sect ; for 
 in the New Testament and primitive antiquity there is no such de- 
 signation. It is simply the church of Christ. It is one thing for us 
 to choose a name for ourselves, and another to have one chosen for us 
 by our enemies. Societies, like persons, are passive in receiving 
 their names. It is with churches as it is with individuals ; they may 
 not wear the name they prefer. She wishes now to be called no lon- 
 ger Roman Catholic, but Catholic. She repudiates the appellation 
 of Roman ; and claims to be the only Catholic church that ever was, 
 and is, and ever more shall be. But we cannot allow her to assume 
 it ; and we dare not, in truth, bestow it, for she is not catholic. But, 
 as tbere is no church known in the New Testament by that name, 
 oould we so designate her, still she would be a sect. 
 
 But let me ask, what is the church of Rome of the nineteenth cen- 
 tury, or rather, what is the present Roman Catholic institution 1 
 Permit me here to say, most emphatically, that I have not the slight- 
 est disposition to use terms of opprobrium in speaking of this church ; 
 or of the worthy gentleman who is opposed to me in this debate. 1 
 <1o not wish or intend to use the slightest expression which could be 
 construed into an unfriendly tone of satire, irony or invective towards
 
 12 DEBATE OK THE 
 
 the respectable gentleman, or towards his chnrcu. I shall spoak 
 freely of her pretensions to be the only true church, &c. but 1 shall 
 observe a scrupulous respect in all my language towards the present 
 representatives of the Catholic church in the nineteenth century. 
 
 Are we then to understand her as the immutable, universal, ancient 
 primitive, apostolic church of Christ? Are we to understand this b) 
 the Roman Catholic church of the nineteenth century, with her popes 
 her cardinals, her patriarchs, primates, metropolitans, archbishops, 
 archdeacons, monks, friars, nuns, &c. &c. teaching and preaching tho 
 use and worship of images, relics, penances, invocation of departed 
 men and women, veneration for some being whom they call " the mo. 
 ther of God," teaching and preaching the doctrine of priestly absolu 
 tion, auricular confession, purgatory, transubstantiation, extreme unc 
 tion, &c. &c. 
 
 Is this the ancient, universal, holy apostolic church ] Not one ol 
 these dogmas can be found in the bible. 4 
 
 They originated hundreds of years since, as I am prepared to sho\v 
 from the evidence of Roman Catholic authors themselves. How then 
 can we call it the ancient apostolic church ? Not one of these offices 
 nor dogmas is mentioned in the New Testament. Hear Du Pin on 
 this point. In exposing the imposition, practised, by an effort, so 
 late as the ninth century, to foist into the history of the church certain 
 pretended decrees or writings of those called the first popes, Du Pin, 
 an authentic Roman Catholic historian, proves these decrees and 
 writings to be spurious, because in them there are numerous allusions 
 to offices and customs not yet existing in the times referred to. 
 
 " The following proves them spurious. 1st. The second epistle of St. Clement 
 directed to St. James, speaks of the Ostiarii or doorkeepers, archdeacons and 
 other ecclesiastical officers, that were uot then introduced into the church." 
 
 2nd. " This letter mentions *u6-deacons, an order not then established in the 
 church." p. 584. 
 
 3d. " In the first Epistle attributed to St. Sixtus, he is called an ' archbishop,' 
 a word not used in this time." 
 
 4th. " The second, attributed to the same pope, mentions consecrated vessels, 
 and appeals to Rome, the grandeur of the church. It is there pretended that ail 
 bishops wait for the pope's decision, and are instructed by his letters ; modes 
 of speaking never used by the first bishops of Rome." 
 
 5th. " The epistle attributed to Teleiptiorus calls him an archbishop, a name 
 unknown in the first ages." 
 
 6th. " There is a decree in it, to enjoin three masses on our Savior's nativity, 
 a custom not so ancient." 
 
 7th. " We find several passages in the letter attributed to Anicetus, which 
 does not agree with the time of that pope ; as, for instance, what is there laid 
 down concerning the ordinations of bishops, sacerdotal tonsure, archbishops anJL 
 primates, which were not instituted till long after ; besides many things of the 
 same nature." p. 585. 
 
 How, then, can we suppose that this church of the nineteenth cen- 
 tury, with so many appendages, is the apostolic church the only 
 original, primitive, universal institution of Christ? 
 
 But she glories in the name of mother and mistress of all churches 
 rhroughout the world. This astonishes me still more ; for with the 
 bible in his hand and history before him, who can stand up and say, 
 that this church ever was the mother and mistress of all churches ! 
 
 The most ancient catholic church was the Hebrew. She was the 
 mother, though not the mistress of all churches; for the Christian 
 church has no reigning queen on earth, to lord it over her as Paul 
 says, on another occasion " Jerusalem is the mother of us all."
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELICT'*! 13 
 
 If the gentleman admit Luke to be a faithful historian, he must not 
 only place the Hebrew church first, but the Samaritan, Phenician, 
 Syrian and Hellenist churches as older than the church in Rome. I 
 say if we speak of churches, as respects antiquity, the Hebrew, Sa- 
 maritan, Syrian and Phenician churches must be regarded as prior to 
 her. The Acts of the Apostles close with Paul's first appearance in 
 Rome. 
 
 But that the Roman Catholic institution may stand before you in 
 bold relief as a sectarian establishment, I will give you a definition 
 of her pretensions, from an authentic source, one of her own stan- 
 dards. The Douay catechism, in answer to the question " What 
 are the essential parts of the church 1" teaches " A pope, or supreme 
 head, bishops, pastors and laity." p. 20. 
 
 These, then, are the four constituent and essential elements of the 
 Roman Catholic church. The first is the pope, or head. It will be 
 confessed by all, that, of these, the most essential is the head. But 
 should we take away any one of these, she loses her identity, and 
 ceases to be what she assumes. My first effort then shall be to prove 
 that, for hundreds of years after Christ, she was without such a head ; 
 the most indispensable of these elements ; and consequently, this be- 
 ing essential to her existence, she was not from the beginning. Be- 
 cause no body can exist before its head. Now, if we can find a time 
 when there was no pope, or supreme head, we find a time when there 
 was no Roman Catholic party. 
 
 By referring to the scriptures, and to the early ecclesiastical re- 
 cords, we can easily settle this point. Let us begin with the New 
 Testament, which all agree, is the only authenticated standard of 
 faith and manners the only inspired record of the Christian doctrine. 
 This is a cardinal point, and I am thankful that in this we all agree. 
 What is not found there, wants the evident sanction of inspiration, 
 and can never command the respect and homage of those who seek 
 for divine authority in faith and morality. 
 
 I affirm then, that not one of the offices, I have enumerated, as be- 
 longing to the Roman Catholic church, was known in the days of 
 the apostles, or is found in the \ew Testament. On the contrary, 
 the very notion of a vicar of Christ, of a prince of the apostles, or of 
 a universal head, and government in the Christian church is repugnant 
 to the genius and spirit of the religion. We shall read a few passa- 
 ges of scripture, from the Roman version, to p.ove that the very idea 
 of an earthly head is unscriptural and anti-scriptural. The version 
 from which I am aTaout to quote was printed in New York, and is cer- 
 tified to correspond exactly, with the Rhemish original, by a number 
 of gentlemen, of the first standing in society. If it differs from any 
 other and more authentic copy, I will not rely upon it. I am willing 
 to take whatever bible the gentleman may propose. I read from the 
 twentieth of Matthew. " Jesus said to his disciples, You know that 
 the princes of the Gentiles overrule them, and those that are the grea- 
 ter exercise power against them. It shall not be so among you, but 
 whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister !" 
 Does this convey the idea of a prince among the apostles, a vicar of 
 Christ, a lord over the people of God 1 Does it not rather say there 
 shall not be any lordship amongst you! This command is express, 
 hat th;re shall not be a pope, a supreme lord of the Christian church. 
 AgSk'n, Matt. 23. 8. "' Be not you called liabbi, for one is your Master 
 B
 
 14 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and al] ye are brethren : and call none father (i. e. pope) for one is 
 your father, be that is in heaven. Neither be you called masters, for 
 one is your master, Christ. He that is the greater of you shall be 
 your servitor !" If the very question about a pope had been before 
 the Messiah at this time, he could not have spoken more clearly. 
 This expression indicates the most perfect equality of rank among 
 the apostles and disciples of Christ, and positively forbids, in a re- 
 ligious sense, the assumption of the title of father or pope. The com- 
 mandment which says " thou shall not steal," is not more clearly laid 
 down than the command " call no man father." 
 
 Now will the gentleman deny that " pope" (in Greek " pappas," 
 in Latin, " papa") means " father ]" and that the case clearly comes 
 within the command. Jesus Christ says, "call no man pope;" yet 
 they ordain a bishop and call him pope ; and this pope claims the 
 title of " universal father" supreme head and governor of the church 
 of Christ. He is sometimes called Lord God the pope. 
 
 This testimony of Christ will outweigh volumes. Put all the fo- 
 lios and authorities, which the gentleman may bring, on one side, and 
 this text of Jesus Christ on the other, and the former, in comparison, 
 will be found light as the chaff which is blown away by a breath. 
 
 Can any one, then, who fears God and believes in the Messiah, call 
 the pope, or any human being " father" in the sense here intended. 
 The Lord anticipated the future in all his precepts, and spoke with 
 an eye to it as well as to the men of his own time. He had the pride 
 and assumptions, of the Rabbis of Jerusalem, in his eye, who cove- 
 ted renown, who loved such greetings in the market place, and re- 
 ceived such compellations in the synagogues. Describing these men 
 to his disciples, he cautions them against their example, and teaches 
 them to regard each other as brethren. I hope the gentleman will pay 
 particular attention to this point in his reply to these remarks. 
 
 The third testimony on which we rely will be found in Ephesians 
 iv. 11. This passage sums up all the officers or gifts which Jesus 
 gave the church after his ascension into heaven. " And " says Paul 
 " he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, 
 and some pastors, and doctors " or teachers. In this enumeration, 
 which contains the whole, there is no pope. The highest or first rank 
 is given to apostles. 
 
 In every other enumeration found in the epistles, there is the same 
 clear reference to the apostles as thejirst class. 1 Cor. xii. 28. But 
 let Peter himself speak as to his rank. We see that in his own 1st 
 Epistle, ch. 1, he calls himself an apostle, not the apostle of/ Jesus 
 not the prince of apostles, not the supreme head of the church. Pe- 
 ter had no idea of such headship and lordship. 
 
 Again in addressing the "seniors" or elders, chap. v. 1. he says, 
 "I myself am a fellow senior." They were all co-elders, co-bishops, 
 co-apostles, as respected each other ; and as respected all other offi- 
 cers the apostles were^Zrs/. The thought of a supreme head amongst 
 them is not found in the New Testament ; only as reprobated by our 
 Savior. 
 
 I will not, at present, advance any more scriptural authority upon 
 the point, but shall proceed to examine what foundation this element 
 of the Roman church, has in ancient history. But I would here ?ay 
 distinctly, once for all, that I will not open a single document to prove 
 any doctrine, tenet, or principle of Protestantism, other than this holy
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 15 
 
 fecod of the prophets, and apostles, the holy men of God, who spake 
 as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. On these I rely, and I af- 
 firm that these contain no authority for the assumption of the doctrine 
 of a universal father, pope, or head of the church. There was no 
 such person mentioned no such idea cherished until hundreds of 
 years after the death of the apostles. 
 
 I will read the following general remarks by this learned historian 
 The title page is as follows : 
 
 A New History of Ecclesiastical Writers, containing an account of 
 the authors of the several books of the Old and New Testaments ; of 
 the lives and writings of the primitive Fathers : an abridgment and 
 catalogue of their works ; their various editions, and censures, deter- 
 mining the genuine and spurious. Together with a judgment upon 
 style and doctrine. Also a compendious history of the Councils; with 
 Chronological Tables of the whole, written in French by Lewis El- 
 lies Du Pin, doctor of the Sorbonne, and Regius Professor at Paris. 
 3 vols. Folio. The Third Edition corrected, Dublin, printed by and foi 
 George Grierson, at the Two Bibles in Essex Street, MDCCXXIV. 
 
 I am happy to find, appended to the preface, the seals and signatures 
 of men high in the church, which I cannot now stop to read. 
 
 From this work I will proceed to read some passages in proot 
 of the proposition I have advanced, that there is not a vestige of evi- 
 dence in favor of the cardinal idea, of the Roman Catholic religion, 
 that there was a pope in the first ages of the church. At the close of 
 the third century the highest advance yet made towards any supremacy 
 in the church on the ground of metropolitan standing, is thus describ- 
 ed by Du Pin. 
 
 " The bishops of great cities had their prerogatives in ordinations, and in coun- 
 cils; and as in civil affairs men generally had recourse to the civil metropolis, so 
 likewise in ecclesiastical matters, they consulted with the bishop of the metro- 
 politan city. The churches of the three principal cities of the world were looked 
 upon as chief, and their bishops attributed great prerogatives to themselves. The 
 church of Rome, founded by St. Peter and St. Paul, was considered as first, 
 and its bishop as first amongst all the bishops of the world ; yet they did not be- 
 lieve him to be infallible: and though they frequently consulted him, and his 
 advice was of great consequence, yet they did not receive it blind-fok! and im- 
 plicitly, every bishop imagining himself to have aright to judge in ecclesiastical 
 matters." p. 590. 
 
 Observe the bishops of the principal cities attributed to themselves 
 great prerogatives* And Rome, the chief city, began to assume the 
 chief prerogatives. But the general character of the clergy as detail- 
 ed by this writer was not yet favorable to such assumptions for, 
 says he, 
 
 " The clergy were not distinguished from others by any peculiar habits, but 
 by the sanctity of their life and manners, they were removed from all kind of 
 avarice, and carefully avoided every thing that seemed to carry the appearance 
 >f scandalous, filthy lucre. They administered the sacrament gratis, and believed 
 it to be an abominable crime to give or receive any thing for a spiritual blessing. 
 Tithes were not then appropriated to them, but the people maintained them vol- 
 untarily at their own expense." 
 
 "The clergy were prohibited to meddle with any civil and secular affairs. They 
 were ordained against their will and did not remove from one church to another 
 out of a principle of interest or ambition. They were extremely chaste and re- 
 gular. It was lawful for priests to keep the wives they married before they were 
 ordained." 
 
 Nothing indeed like an ecclesiastical establishment was yet in ex- 
 istence : for says Du Pin, speaking of these times. 
 
 After all, it must be confessed, that the discipline of the church has beeu so
 
 16 DEBATE ON THB 
 
 extremely different and so often altered, that it is almost impossible to saj any 
 thins: positively concerning; it." p 590. 
 
 So stood the matter at the close of .the third century. 
 
 But we have still more definite and positive testimony, in the great 
 councils of the 4th and 5th centuries. Let us then examine the early 
 councils. The famous council of Nice which sat in 325, is the first 
 general council that ever assembled ; for although they call the con- 
 sultations of the apostles Acts 15., a council, yet in the enumeration 
 of general councils, of which they establish eighteen, that of Nice ia 
 called the first. 
 
 At this council there were present 318 bishops. It was called by 
 the Roman emperor in order to settle certain discords in what was 
 then called the church. By the sixth canon of this first council it ap- 
 pears, according to Du Pin, that the idea of a pope, or supreme head, 
 had not begun to be entertained. The sixth canchi of the council of 
 Nice is as follows. 
 
 ' The 6th canon is famous for the several questions it has occasioned. Th* 
 most natural sense that can be given to it, is this: ' We ordain that the ancient 
 custom shall be observed, which gives power to the bishop of Alexandria, over 
 all the provinces of Eg-ypt, Libya, and Pantapolis, because the bishop of Rome 
 has the like jurisdiction over all the suburbicary regions (for this addition must 
 be supplied out of Rufinus;) we would likewise Dave the rights and privileges of 
 the church of Jlntioch and the other churches preserved; but these rights ought 
 not to prejudice those of the metropolitans. If any one is ordained without th 
 consent of the metropolitan, the council declares, that he is no bishop: but it any 
 one is canonically chosen oy the suffrage of almost all the bishops of the province 
 and if there are but one cr two of a contrary opinion, the suffrages of the faj 
 greater number ought to carry it for the ordination of those particular persons 
 This canon being thus explained has no difficulty in it. It does not oppose th 
 primacy of the church of Rome, but neither does it establish it.' 
 
 " In this sense it is, that it compares the church of Rome to the church of 
 Alexandria, by considering them all as patriarchal churches. It continues also 
 to the church of Jlntiock and all the other great churches, whatsoever rights 
 they could have; but lest their authority should be prejudicial to the ordinary 
 metropolitans, who were subject to their jurisdiction, the council confirms what 
 had been ordained in the fourth canon concerning the authority of metropo- 
 litans in the ordination of bishops. This explication is easy and natural, and we 
 have given many proofs of it in our Latin dissertation concerning the ancien* 
 discipline of the cnurch." 
 
 " This canon," says Du Pin, who be it remembered was always 
 anxious to find some authority for the pope's supremacy, " DOES NOT 
 
 ESTABLISH THE SUPREMACY OF THE CHURCH OF Ro.ME." Willing 3S 
 
 he was to have this primacy traced to the beginning of Christianity, 
 he is constrained to admit, that even the council of Nice does not es- 
 tablish it. Nay more it is in truth against it; for it gives the Bishop 
 of Alexandria like jurisdiction with the church of Rome; and also 
 preserves to the church of Antioch its metropolitan dominion. 
 
 It would be too tedious to go into an exposition of the causes, why 
 so much power was accumulated in the hands of four or five bishops 
 It originated in the divisions of the empire. In Roman jurisdiction, 
 there were four great political dioceses, (for diocese was then a politi- 
 cal term) and to these the church conformed. Hence the patriarchal 
 sees of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria. In process 
 of time. Jerusalem was added, and these all became radiating centres 
 of ecclesiastical power and patronage. The bishop of each dioces* 
 assumed a sort of primacy, in his own district ; and as various inter- 
 ferences and rivalries in jurisdiction occurred, the council of Nice s< 
 far decided that the same power should be given to them all that al
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 17 
 
 primates should be co-ordinate. Hence Du Pin could not finJ in that 
 council authority for the supreme primacy of Rome. In the canons 
 of the second and third general councils there is no reference to these 
 matters whatever. 
 
 I shall therefore proceed to the great council of Chalcedon, of pre- 
 eminent authority, the greatest of the first for general councils. 
 
 From all the canons of the council relating to government, it is evi 
 dent that they had not yet excogitated the idea of a supreme head. 
 Says Du Pin, 
 
 "The 28th canon grants to the church of the city of Constantinople, which \s 
 called New .Rome, the same privileges with old Rome, because this city is the se- 
 cond city in the world. It also adjudges to it, besides this, jurisdiction over the 
 dioceses of Pontus,Jlsia, and Thrac,and over the churches which are out of the 
 bounds of the emperor, and aright to ordain metropolitans in the provinces ot 
 these dioceses." p. 678. 
 
 Thus this council, composed of 340 bishops, and assembling in the 
 year of our Lord 451, gave the same power.to the patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople as to the patriarch of Rome, and makes the supremacy of 
 the one equal to the supremacy of the other. 
 
 I have examined the proceedings of all the councils of the first six 
 centuries, of which I find about 170, promulgating in all about 1400 
 canons. J have read and examined the twenty creeds of the fourth 
 century with all their emendations down to the close of the sixth ; 
 and I affirm, without the fear of contradiction, that there is not in all 
 these a single vestige of the existence of a pope or universal head of 
 the church down to the time of Gregory the great, or John the Faster 
 of Constantinople. 
 
 I shall now proceed to show from the same learned historian when 
 this idea began to be divulged. And be it emphatically observed that 
 the title of pope in its peculiar and exclusive sense was first assumed 
 by the patriarch of Constantinople, and approved by the patriarch of 
 Rome. Du Pin says in his life of Gregory, chap. 1, " He did of- 
 ten rigorously oppose the title of universal patriarch, which the patri- 
 archs of Constantinople assumed to themselves." Indeed he calls 
 the title, " proud, blasphemous, anti-christian, diabolical," and says, 
 the bishops of Rome refused to take this title upon them " lest they 
 should seem to encroach upon the rights of other bishops." But the 
 following document or remonstrance against the title shews what a 
 novelty the idea of an universal head, father, or pope was even at 
 Rome, A. D. 588 : 
 
 " St. Gregory does not only oppose this title in the patriarch of Constantino- 
 ple, but maintains also, that it cannot agree to any other bishop, and that the 
 bishop of Rome neither ought, nor can assume it. John the younger, patriarch 
 of Constantinople, had taken upon him this title in a council held in 586, in the 
 time of pope Ptlagius, which obliged this pope to annul the Acts of this coun- 
 cil. St. Gregory wrote of it also to this patriarch ; but this made no impression 
 on him, and John would not abandon this fine title, B. 4. Ep. 36. St. Gregory 
 addressed himself to the emperor Mauritius, and exhorted him earnestly to 
 employ his authority for redressing this abuse, and force him who assumed this 
 title to quit it. He remonstrates to him in his letter, that although Jesus Christ 
 had committed to St. Peter the care of all his churches, yet he was not called 
 universal apostle. That the title of universal bishop is against the rules of the 
 gospel, and the appointment of the canons : that there cannot be an universal 
 bishop but the authority of all the other will be destroyed or diminished ; that 
 if the bishop of Constantinople were universal bishop, and it should happen that 
 be should fall into heresy, it might be said that the universal church was fallen 
 into Instruction. That the council of Chalcedon had offered thia title to J.ta, 
 B2 2
 
 18 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 but neither tic nor his successors would accept it, lest by giving something pe. 
 culiar to one bishop only, they should take away the rights which belong to all 
 the bishops. That it belongs to the emperor to reduce by his authority him 
 who despises the canons, and does injury to the universal church by assuming 
 this singular name." B. 4. Ep. 32. 
 
 But at this time the patriarchs of Constantinople and Rome were 
 contending for the supremacy, and while it appeared to Gregory thai 
 his rival of the east was likely to possess the title, he saw in it, eve- 
 ry thing anti-christian and profane. When a new dynasty, however, 
 amended the throne and offered the title to a Roman bishop, it lost all 
 i : s blasphemy and impiety, and w T e find the successor of Gregory can 
 wear the title of universal patriarch when tendered him by Phocas, 
 without the least scrupulosity. 
 
 It is then a fact worth}- of much consideration in this discussion, 
 that John bishop of Constantinople first assumed the title of univer- 
 sal head of the whole Christian church, and that the bishop of Rome 
 did in that case oppose it as anti-scriptural and anti-christian. 
 
 Concerning the reputation of Saint Gregory I need not be profuse 
 Of the Gregories he is deservedly called the Great. Renowned in 
 history as one who stamped his own image on the Roman world foi 
 a period of five hundred years, yet he could not brook the idea of a 
 pope, especially when about to be bestowed on his rival a/ Constan. 
 tinople. 
 
 St. Gregory, be it remembered, says Du Pin, did not only oppose 
 the title in the case of John the Faster, as proud, heretical, blasphe- 
 mous, &c. but could not agree to its being assumed by any other 
 bishop ; he affirmed that the bishops of Rome ought not, dare not, 
 cannot assume this pompous and arrogant title. 
 
 Thus stood matters as respects a supreme head up to within 14 
 years of the close of the 6th century. [Time expired.] 
 
 Eleven o'clock A. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 I thought it likely, my respected and beloved fellow citizens, that I 
 should have to day a difficult task before m*- But' I perceive that I 
 shall have an easy one. I expected from the reputation of my antag- 
 onist as a debater, that he was going to argue so closely, and to press 
 me so hard, that he would, to use a common expression, make mi need 
 meat of me, and not leave one bone of me unbroken. I thought that 
 my creed, so ancient, so venerable, so holy, was to be torn into tat- 
 ters and scattered to the four winds of heaven I was mistaken ! 
 
 The gentleman occupied ten minutes of his time in endeavoring to 
 bias the judgment of his hearers in favor of the idea, that this contro- 
 versy originated not with himself, but that I was the aggressor, in 
 doing which he was called to order. I will not trespass more than 
 two or three minutes on your patience in answering his preliminary 
 observations. 
 
 I am willing to let that matter rest on its own merits. As to the 
 question of assailant and defender in this controversy, the public have 
 the data, and it is for them to judge. My worthy opponent begran the 
 pn seivt debate by representing himself as the staunch defender p*" Pro- 
 testantism, endeavoring thereby to enlist the sympathies of Protestants 
 in his favor. And what, I would presume to inquire, are his pnnci- 
 ples ? What are his claims, his pretensions, or his ri^rt to a->ear 
 before this assembly as the defender of Protestantism I Y t * *11
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 19 
 
 aware vrhat sad pranks have been lately played off before high Hea- 
 ven by men styling themselves Protestants, which all classes of Pro- 
 testants unite in deprecating, which they all condemn. I know not 
 whether there be not some Protestants here, who will not admit his 
 gratuitous advocacy of their principles who will not believe that the 
 principles of Protestantism which he volunteers to defend will be ful- 
 ly or fairly represented by him. For one, I think the Episcopalians, 
 a numerous and respectable class, will not consent to be represented 
 by him ; for he denies, if I am rightly informed, that there is proper- 
 ly any ministry in the Protestant church so called th*at a divine call 
 should precede the assumption of the sacred office. [Here the mod- 
 erators interrupted, by requesting the speaker to confine himself to the 
 question.] 
 
 Well we are so far even, [a laugh.] The gentleman, then, began 
 by.^he assertion that the term Roman Catholic was an incongruity. 
 But I deny it to be an incongruity. Terms, we all know, are used 
 the mo-e clearly to designate the idea or object which they represent. 
 " Catholic" is the name of our church ; and we only prefix the word 
 Roman to signify that she is in communion with the see of Rome. 
 We acknowledge there a primate of superior, ecclesiastical jurisdic- 
 tion, and in his communion we do abide. 
 
 He says the word Roman is incongruous ; yet his own authority, 
 Du Pin, says it 'was synonymous with Catholic. It was so under- 
 stood formerly. And here I may observe that I deny the authority 
 of Du Pin to be competent to the settlement of questions to be called 
 up for decision in the course of the present controversy. Du Pin was 
 a Jansenist, removed from his place of Regius Professor at the Sor- 
 bonne for his doctrinal errors, by Louis XIV. to whom Clement XI 
 addressed a brief on this occasion, commending his zeal for the 
 truth. The claim of Rome was undisputed in the early ages, and it 
 was only when her preeminence was contested that the term " Roman" 
 was used before the word Catholic. Hence it was no incongruity, 
 but a clearer designation of the see in whose communion were all the 
 churches. He has stated an inaccuracy in saying that the word cath- 
 olic was not found in the bible. Is not the episUe of St. James cal- 
 led catholic 1 And will he presume to say the word was not placed 
 there in the very first age of Christianity ? 
 
 The gentleman says he will use no words that may convey an op- 
 probrious meaning. God forbid that I should set him the example. 
 I shall debate this question with earnestness, but not with passion. 
 As soon as the discussion closes, I can meet the gentleman without a 
 single unkind or unfriendly feeling. 
 
 But in enumerating various doctrines of the Catholic church, I was 
 shocked to hear him use the language " some being called the mother 
 of God." Great God ! didst thou not send into the world thy Son, 
 Jesus Christ, to save perishing man, and didst thou not select one 
 of all the daughters of Eve,to be the mother of that child of benedic- 
 tion, and was not Mary this holy one, to whose care was committed 
 his infancy, and to whom he was subject 1 ? Was she not the chosen 
 one of heaven, to whom its archangel was sent with the communica- 
 tion " Hail, full of Grace," or as it is in the Protestant version 
 " thou that art highly favored the Lord is with thee," and do we 
 now hear her stigmatized in such language, and designated as " some 
 being called the mother of God 1"
 
 20 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 The gentleman then contests the doctrine of a hierarchy in the 
 church ; and says what he asserts is proved by the scriptures. 1 
 would ask has he read the bible ? Has he read the book of Leviti- 
 cus ? Does he not find there the example set of a distinction of ordera 
 in religious affairs ? Did not the Lord speak to Moses, saying, 
 " ' Take Aaron with his sons, their vestments and the oil of unction,' 
 and he poured it on Aaron's head he put also the mitre on his head. 
 And after he had offered his sons, he vested them with linen tunics 
 and girded them with girdles," &c. &c. " And Nadab and Abiu 
 were consumed with fire for opposing them, and they died before tho 
 Lord." Did not Moses lead ! Did not Aaron assist ? Were there 
 not councillors appointed by the Lord, to divide the burden of their 
 ministry ? Did not king Josaphat send Zachariah and Nathaniel and 
 Michael, and with them the Levites, Senneias, &c., to teach the peo- 
 ple 7 Paralip. 17. 7. What is this but a distinction of orders and of 
 authority in the Jewish dispensation 1 
 
 He says there was no distinction of orders in the early Christian 
 church ; and he refuted himself by appealing for a solution of the dif- 
 ficulty to St. Paul. Were there no ordera, no hierarchy? What saya 
 St. Paul in 4th Ephesians ? " And he gave some apostles, and some 
 prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors, and 
 teachers, for tiie perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, 
 for the edifying of the body of Christ ; until we all meet unto the 
 unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect 
 man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ." We 
 must here remark a gradation of authority in the church of God. Fot 
 what? For the work of the ministry. There never has existed a so- 
 cial body without subordination, or distinction of ^ank. The church 
 of Christ is a social body. It needs to be subjected to order, even 
 more than a political body; and as if St. Paul anticipated the objec- 
 tion, which we have, not without surprise, heard this day urged, he 
 expressly states the object of the institution of a hierarchy by him, 
 who ascending on high gave gifts to men, to be the perfecting of the 
 saints the unity of faith. " Are all," he asks, (what my friend 
 would make them) " prophets ! Are all pastors ?" He elsewhere 
 asks, " How can they preach unless they be sent ?" By whom ? By 
 an ecclesiastical superior. So much for the evidence of the Old Tes 
 lament, and the New Testament. They both teach a head, a hierar- 
 chy and subordination among the people of God. 
 
 This takes me to the examination of the title, assumed by the Cath- 
 olic church, of mother and mistress of all the churches. He says 
 Jerusalem was the mother church at first and then the Samaritan, 
 and so on, I need not follow him. I will explain what we mean by 
 the terra. We call her mother because she guides, she cherishes us. 
 We call her mother, because we feel a filial reverence for her just 
 as an orphan calls her who protects her, educates her, and guides her 
 wandering feet, by the same tender appellative. There is no blasphe- 
 my in this comparison. It is the Son of God that established the 
 authority of that church. The name is its designation. 
 
 But the word ' mistress' is never used in speaking of the church, 
 in the sense of lordship, or queenship. It is the way in which chil- 
 dren address their teacher. They frequently use the expression, as 
 we read in Cordery's Colloquies, "salve magister." Magistra here is 
 addressed to her in her capacity of teacher, and such she is, and, as I
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 21 
 
 shall prove, by the appointment and the express institution of Jesus 
 Christ. 
 
 He next referred to the Doway catechism to show from the defini- 
 tion of the Catholic church, that she consisted of four elements, viz. 
 the pope, bishops, pastors, and laity. 
 
 Now the catechism of this diocese defines the Catholic church to 
 be the congregation of all the faithful, professing the same faith, re- 
 ceiving the same sacraments, and united under one. visible head, the 
 pope, or vicar of Jesus Christ, on earth. 
 
 It is defined to be the congregation of all the faithful. This is the 
 definition which most authors give. It is that of the catechism from 
 which my friend has quoted. 
 
 But let us adopt his definition, and I am prepared to show that the 
 idea of a supreme head has its origin in the bible, and is supported 
 by the earliest ecclesiastical authority. I must here take notice of the 
 promise he gave to put his finger on the precise day and date when 
 the church called the Roman Catholic church, ceased to be the church 
 of Christ. He has left us as much in the dark as ever on this most 
 important of all events. It is a point which has puzzled the world, 
 and will for ever puzzle it, to fix that date. It will, I am sure, puz- 
 zle my friend. The whole world has never been able to state at what 
 particular moment the Catholic church lost her prerogative and the 
 favor of God when she ceased to be in the true sense tl}e Catholic 
 Church. The reason of this is obvious. She has never forfeited her 
 prerogative. But to the matter before us. It is opposed to scripture 
 to assert that the church in apostolic days had no head. What did 
 Christ say to Peter when he addressed him the mysterious question 
 " Lovest thou me more than these" 1 ? Peter says he does -love him. 
 Jesus gives him the order, " feed my lambs." A second time he asks 
 the question, and receives the same reply. The third time he repeats 
 the same question. Peter, troubled that his Lord should doubt his 
 affection, replies, " Oh Lord, thou knowest all things thou knowest 
 that I love thee," and Jesus repeated the command " feed my lambs" 
 " feed my sheep." 
 
 Thus Christ establishes the headship of the church in Peter, and 
 him he makes his vice-gerent, or common pastor, to feed both lambs 
 and sheep both clergy and laity. 
 
 Mr. Campbell quarrels with the doctrine of the pope's headship 
 because it carries a power and an authority with it : and he quotes the 
 New Testament to prove no such power to have been exercised in the 
 days of the apostles. I have disproved his argument upon this point 
 already. Christ did institute a body of leaders, a ministry to guide 
 his people, " that henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, 
 and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of 
 men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 
 But doing the truth in Christ, we may in all things grow up in him 
 who is head, even Christ; from whom the whole body being compac- 
 ted and fitly joined together, by what every part supplieth, according 
 to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the 
 body, unto the edifying of itself in charity." Must not the body 
 have a head, the house a foundation ? He objects that we call the 
 sovereign pontiff Pope, or father, whereas Christ says, "call not any 
 man Father." But is this prohibition of our Savior to be taken liter- 
 all J ^ Is there any guilt or imoiety in calling a parert " Father!"
 
 22 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Many of Christ's commands are similar. He commands us to call 
 no man good.- for God only is good. But do we not, in saluting a 
 friend in common life, say " Good Sir," " my good friend?" &c. In 
 there any impiety in this ? It is the using these terms in that sense 
 in which they are peculiar to the divinity, which Christ forbids. And 
 the pope when he corresponds with the bishops, does not assume 
 these proud titles, but addresses them as an elder BROTHER. We Jo 
 not call him " Lord God the Pope." 
 
 Mr. C. says, St. Paul did not lord it over the clergy. Neithei 
 does the pope. He is to govern the church according to the canons, 
 He can make no articles of faith. He cannot, he does not act arbi- 
 trarily in proposing articles of belief unknown to Catholic antiquity. 
 But neither will he suffer innovation. His language is like St. Paul's, 
 "Were I or an angel from Heaven to preach to you any other gospel, 
 than what has been preached, let him be Anathema !" This expres- 
 sed the sense the great apostle entertained of his own responsibility, 
 and the danger of novelty in religion. He would not suffer altar to 
 be raised against altar, on the ground of private interpretation of the 
 bible. He would not suffer the wolves of heresy and error to prowl 
 around the fold, and tear, and scatter the sheep entrusted to him by 
 Jesus Christ. 
 
 It would be horrid blasphemy to apply to man the title Father, in 
 the sense in which it is addressed to God. We never call the pope 
 in any sense God. When the pope writes to the bishops, he begins 
 by " Dilecti Fratres" " BELOVED BRETHREN," a republican, and if 
 you please democratic address. The bishops are all brethren undei 
 one common father. The pope is accused of letting himself be wor- 
 shipped. This is not so. But when the Pope comes before the altai 
 he bows down like the humblest of his people. " I confess," says 
 he, "to Almighty God, to the blessed Virgin Mary, the holy Apostles. 
 and to all the Saints," the least of whom he therefore acknowledges 
 to be greater than himself, " that I have sinned ;" and this is what is 
 called setting himself up to be a God ! See how you have been de- 
 ceived by the invidious representations you have had of the pope, and 
 of our doctrine, my friends. 
 
 1 assert again that the authority quoted by my friend, Mr. C.. viz. 
 Du Pin, is no authority. He was the rank enemy of the Roman see, 
 a Jansenist, reproved and censured by the Catholic church. Mr. C. 
 knows this, for I have read to him the documents that prove it, and 
 he was confounded by them. It is neither good faith, nor good logic, 
 to quote him as an authority against my argument. As for the signa- 
 tures appended to the English translation, I care not for them ; they 
 may have been wrongfully placed there, or those certificates suborn- 
 ed. This makes nothing for the authority of the book, and no argu- 
 ment can be drawn from them. But, my friends, I am sure you dis- 
 covered his discomfiture when he appealed to Du Pin. There was a 
 stumbling block in his way, something he could not get over. Did 
 you not notice how with the rapid speed of a rail-road car dashing 
 suddenly on an obstruction, he fled the track, when he found to his as- 
 tonishment that the testimony adduced by his author, was not imfa- 
 vorable to the supremacy of St. Peter, and his successors ! I will 
 examine his writings to show that even in the third century, the bish- 
 ops of Rome claimed this prerogative, and Du Pin tells you that this 
 was acknowledged. He says there were three principal bishops.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 23 
 
 This is a great admission, and I am thankful for it. He says that 
 event-then, bishops came from inferior sees, and laid their conflicting 
 claims before the see of Rome; and submitted to the chair of Peter, 
 doubts in religious matters ; and urged it to proclaim a solution of 
 their difficulties; but he says, they did not believe the pope of Rome 
 infallible. This is granting to the Catholics the whole mooted ques- 
 tion. The question is clearly settled by this admission. Appeals 
 were lodged before the bishop of Rome, though he was not believed 
 to be infallible. Neither is he now. No enlightened Catholic holds 
 the pope's infallibility to be an article of faith. I do not; and none 
 of my brethren, that I know of, do. The Catholic believes the pope, 
 as a man, to be as liable to error, as almost any other man in the uni- 
 verse. Man is man, and no man is infallible, either in doctrine or 
 morals. Many of the popes have sinned, and some of them have 
 been bad men. I presume my worthy antagonist will take his brush 
 in hand, and roll up his sleeves, and lay it on them hard and heavy ; 
 so will I ; and whenever he uses a strong epithet against them, I will 
 use a stronger. But let us return to the gentleman's authority, Du 
 Pin. We come to the council of Nice, which was held A. D. 325, 
 and where 318 bishops were assembled. This council was convoked 
 oy the first Christian emperor Constantine the Great, at the suggestion, 
 I might have more correctly said the instigation of Sylvester, bishop 
 of Rome, and of course, with his consent. Osius, bishop of Cordo- 
 va, and two legates, Vitus and Vincentius, presided in it, in the name 
 of the Roman pontiff. The principal doctrine on which the council 
 was assembled to decide, was the divinity of Jesus Christ denied by 
 the Arians. From the manner of the convocation of the council, the 
 circumstance of its having been presided over by the representatives 
 of the pope, or bishop of Rome, the submission of the entire Chris- 
 tian world to its decrees, and the authentic records of its transactions 
 which have reached us, we have the most convincing evidences of the 
 reverence which was even then entertained for the successor of St. 
 Peter ; and the best practical illustration of the wisdom that estab- 
 lished his pre-eminence of rank among his brethren, to watch over 
 the purity of doctrine, the soundness of morals, the uniformity of 
 discipline, and the maintenance of union among the churches. \Vhat 
 more direct and satisfactory testimony could we require of the supre- 
 macy of the see of Rome, than the distinct recognition of its authori- 
 ty by so venerable an assembly ? And what if rival claims were ad- 
 vanced by other sees ] This ambitious spirit is as old as Christiani- 
 ty, as ancient as the origin of the human race. The apostles, them- 
 selves, strove for the mastery. They contended which of them was 
 the greater. But this rivalry only served, in the end, to establish 
 more firmly the precedency of the claim of St. Peter. In answer to 
 the pretensions of the bishop of Alexandria, the council says to him, 
 " As the bishop of Rome has his primacy in Rome, so the bishop of 
 Alexandria has his primacy in Alexandria." It says to him, " you 
 have no cause to complain if he has his authority, you have yours ; 
 in your respective sees, or churches, you have the chief control ; but 
 it is his prerogative, as occupying the place of Peter, to watch over 
 the welfare of all." " Neither," says Du Pin, " DOES IT DISPROVE 
 THE PRIMACY OF ROME." The council offered a sedative to the pride 
 of the bishop of Alexandria, or asserted his authority in his own see, 
 out it does not disprove the primary of Rome.
 
 24 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 What more do you want than what God has caused to be thus re- 
 corded here? 
 
 The dissension first originated among the patriarchal sees. The 
 counsel took cognizance of it, and decided according to the rules and 
 usages of the apostolic and immediately subsequent ages. From this, 
 whatever follows, it surely does not follow that there was no primacy 
 in Rome. 
 
 He says that the bishop of Constantinople assumed to call himself 
 the universal bishop, and that the emperor winked at it. What does 
 this mean 1 Why that the crafty emperor, and the more subtle bishop 
 intended to compel Rome to acknowledge Constantinople as hei 
 equal. This attempt of the emperor and the patriarch illustrates the 
 point at issue, and clears it in fact of any difficulty. They knew that 
 Rome was referred to on every occasion ; and that her decision was 
 final. They were jealous of her authority. The manner of this as- 
 sumption of the bishop of Constantinople, and of the emperor wink- 
 ing at it, are in fact proofs of the supremacy of Home. Now, thought 
 the proud Greek, I will bring this haughty pontiff of Rome crouching 
 to my feet, I will make him surrender all his authority, and we, the 
 emperor and myself, will divide the earth between us. It was there- 
 fore that the bishop made this assumption, and that the emperor winked 
 at it. It was in this unjust and intolerable sense of the term UNIVERSAL 
 FATHER, that Gregory who deserves all the praise which has been 
 given him, and more, objected to its assumption. It was thus that he 
 reprobated the title of universal father. 
 
 If the bishop of Rome now claims to be called the first pastor in 
 Christendom, he pretends to be no lord of the consciences of his breth- 
 ren, or dictator of the terms of salvation to the servants of God. 
 He acknowledges with humility his own intrinsic nothingness, unless 
 supported by God, and guided and guarded by him in the administra- 
 tion of his eminently responsible office. 
 
 He is a father because he breaks the mystic bread, and dispenses 
 the spiritual nourishment of sound doctrine to the souls of the people 
 of God. He is a father because to him we appeal in our doubts, and to 
 him refer in every emergency, as to the vicar of Christ. 
 
 The term Universal Father was likewise worthy of the condemna- 
 tion of Gregory, in the bad sense in which it was assumed by the pa- 
 triarch of Constantinople, viz. that of lord and master of spiritual 
 power and of the consciences of the brethren, so as not to need or ask 
 the advice of the bishops. The pope never gives a decree without 
 taking counsel from his constitutional advisers, a%-ailing himself of 
 the light of present wisdom and past experience. He takes all human 
 means to weigh the subject well and to come to a sound and scriptural 
 conclusion. Discard the pope sever from the communion of the 
 church of Rome, and you lose all claim, or shadow of claim to a con- 
 nexion with the apostles. Hear Waddington speaking of the Vaudois 
 " In our journev back towards the apostolic times, these separatists conduct 
 us a* far as the beginning- of the twelfth century; but when we would advance 
 farther, we are intercepted by a broad region of darkness and uncertainty. A 
 park of hope is indeed suggested by the history of the Vaudois. Their origin is 
 not ascertained by any authentic record, and being immemorial, it may have 
 been coeval with the introduction of Christianity. 
 
 " But since there is not one direct proof of their existence during that long 
 space; since they have never been certainly discovered by the curiosity of any 
 writer, nor detected by the inquisitorial eye of any orthodox bishop nor
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 25 
 
 nmneii by any pope, or council, or any church record, chronicle, or memorial' 
 we are not justified in attaching- any historical credit to their mere unsupported 
 tradition. \t is sufficient to prove, that they had an earlier existence than tli 
 twelfth century; but that they had then been perpetuated through eight or 
 nine centuries, unconuueniorated abroad, and without any national monument 
 to attest their existence, is much more than we can venture, on such evidence 
 to assert. Here then the golden chain of our apostolic descent disappears, 
 and though it may exist, buried in the darkness of those previous ages, ana 
 though some writers have seemed to discern a few detached links which they 
 diligtntly exhibited, there is still much wanting to complete the continuity.' 
 [ Page 5j4 nf the History of the Church from the earliest ages, by Rev. Ceo 
 Waadington, Jl. M. fellow <>f Trinity College, Cambridge, and Prebendary of 
 Ferrin/f, in the cathedral clnirch of Cnichester, JVeio York edition, 1835. l 
 
 Well if Christ established a church on earth, that church must b 
 catholic. " I believe in the holy catholic church," is the language 
 of the apostles and of councils, of Protestants as well as of Catholics. 
 The tr,ue church must be catholic. What church then is catholic 1 
 The universe answers the question Italy, France, Spain, Austria. 
 Ireland, South America, Canada, five hundred churches lately erected 
 in England, Calcutta, Ceylon, Oceana, all the islands of the Pacific 
 and the Atlantic : even in every country where Protestantism is dom- 
 inant, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the testimony is ^iven, and tha 
 words " I believe in the holy catholic church" are used by the mem- 
 bers of the Roman Catholic church, who alone have a right to use 
 them. Applied to any other church they are a misnomer. Protestants 
 cannot employ such language. They are cut up into a thousand dis- 
 cordant and chaotic sects. As no other church but ours is now cath- 
 olic, so no other but ours ever has been or will be catholic. " Chris- 
 tian is my name and Catholic my surname," said Pacian. With love 
 and charity to all men the Roman Catholic church subsists throughout 
 all time, teaches all truth, and gathers into her communion the children 
 of every clime. What she lost in one region, she gained in another. 
 The axe of persecution that lopped off some of her branches, made 
 the vigorous trunk produce the more luxuriously. 
 
 " Investigating," says Fletcher, "in those countries, where either Christianity 
 has once subsisted, or where it subsists at present the monuments which thev 
 exhibit, and interrogating these (monuments have voices, my brethren, that speak 
 plainly,) it will be. found that they all loudly attest the greatness and the an- 
 tiquity of our religion. "We are Catholics," the venerable ruins say, "and 
 the emblems even, which still adorn us, shew it." It is so, likewise, not only in 
 the monuments, which were once, or are yet, sacred to religion, but in a grea* 
 variety of other vestiges. The proofs of the ancient splendor of Catholicity are 
 legible on almost every object, that has seen the tide of ages roll away, on the 
 palaces of princes, -on the castles of the great, on the gates of cities, on the 
 asylums of charity, on the tombs of the dead. They may be read in the con- 
 stitutions and laws of kingdoms in the foundations and rules of universities, 
 in the customs and peculiarities of the vulgar. * ***** 
 
 It is indeed, possible that prejudice may object to those arguments, that 
 "they are very general and indistinct, proving, it is true, that in almost every 
 nation, and in every age, there has existed a widely diffused religion, a Catholic 
 religion, but not proving that this religion, its principles and doctrines, were - 
 every a - e the same in every age, the identical religion, which the Catholic be- 
 lieves at present." It is the essence of the true religion to remain unchanged ; 
 and to have descended, and to descend always, down the stream of time, without 
 corruption or alteration. If, therefore, I undertake distinctly to prove, that th-; 
 Catholic religion of the present period is indeed, the true religion, then shoul-'* 
 I also distinctly prove that it has never undergone any alteration, and that it is 
 the same, which, revealed originally to mankind, has, during the course of eigh- 
 teen centuries, formed always the object of the veneration of the orthodox bt- 
 liever." vol. 2, p. 173 
 
 C 4
 
 *l> DEBATE (XV 1HE 
 
 " As it was the design of God, that the true church shouM be Catholic; so it 
 "as also his desisrn. that the true church should always be distinguished by the 
 LonoraWe appellation of Catholic: as it was the will of Jesus Christ, that the 
 establishment which he formed, should extend through every nation, and subsist 
 through every age; so alto it was his will, that this establishment should be dig- 
 nified \>y a itaroe corresponding to these great characteristics. " I bf lieve." the 
 apostles commarded the faithful in every age to say, "in the holy CATHOLIC 
 Churcn, ' "by this name CATHOLIC," says St. Austin, "7 ttm retained in the 
 Catholic church," * my name," adds St. Pacian, "is Christian; my surname 
 CATHOLIC; and BY THIS SURNAME, / am diitinguishcd from all the sects of 
 heresy. Sermon on the catholicity of the church, page 195, vol. ii. Baft. 
 edit. 1830. 
 
 It is certainly, my beloved friends, a very animating circumstance, to view the 
 immensity and the long duration of our church; to see it stretching out its em- 
 pire througn every climate; consoliagby its benefits, and enlightening by its doc- 
 trines, the remotes* corners of the universe: to see it existing through the long 
 lapse 01 so many ages, unmoved, while the strongest empires sink to rnin ; and 
 unshaken, while all things fall in decay around it. It is animating to remark it 
 triumphant over ail the powers of darkness,aod the exertions of human malice, 
 combating often, it is true, with the storms of persecution and the artifices of 
 heresy; yet combating, always, to come off with victory; riding throngh the tem- 
 pest, ana exalted by the very means which had been levelled at its depression 
 Ibid, page 198. 
 
 From this contemplation, my Christian friends, we may derive the consoling 
 assurance, that happen or befal what may, though the billows of persecution 
 swell and the tide of error rage; every effort to destroy the church shall turn 
 out fruitless. The church, these scenesassare you, fs an edifice protected bv the 
 hand of the Almighty, a rock fixed on the basis of the divfne power amid th 
 sea of human life. The billows of persecution shall swell, the tide of error 
 dash against it in vain. They will no more move it, although they may, in- 
 deed, sweep away many of its unguarded members, than the gentk st *pray 
 will move the firmest mountain that the ocean laves. I should be sorry to see 
 the misfortune happen, yet could I behold the most 'furious tempest gathering 
 without one feeling of anxiety for the stability of the chtrrch. As the Psalmist 
 my s, "if should rome to nothing, like the running water," (Pa. Ivii.) It. would 
 prove but the preparation for fresh coaquests. The security of the church amid 
 storms, during the long' interval of eighteen centuries, is alone sufficient assur- 
 ance of its security, amid the fury of future tempest. Ibidem, pa^e 193. 
 
 If it can be proved that the Catholic chnrch had not these 
 characteristics, we admit she is not the church of Christ. I shall go 
 to trial on this point. If she has ever ceased to teach the whole doc- 
 trine of Christ, to diffuse over all nations, the true Christian precepts, 
 or if she has not had a larger body of professors, than any of the sects, 
 that separated in every successive age from her communion, then will 
 I yield the question. Bnt it will try the ingenuity of the gentleman- 
 to prove any such thing, and still more, to show in that case, what 
 church was catholic. This difficulty meets him at the very threshold. 
 [Time expired] 
 
 Three o'clock, P. M. 
 Mr. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 Mr learned and worthy opponent commenced his forenoon speech, 
 spying that he found before him a more easy task than he had expect- 
 ed. Were it a question of rhetoric rather than of logic, I confess I 
 should have mort to fear. He has been more accustomed than I, to 
 the djtpiay of that art. I am rather a matter of fact man, and logic 
 more than rhetoric has occupied my attention. 
 
 I apprehend, however, before this discussion is ended he may find 
 his task not quite so easy as he would seem to anticipate. And to me 
 the good book has suggested a caution which I hope always to remem-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 27 
 
 ber. It is happily couched in these words, " Let not him that buck- 
 leth on his armor boast as he that taketh it off." 
 
 But to examine his defence, so far as in it there is reference to my 
 speech, has he not made in the very first effort an unfortunate admis- 
 sion ? The name Catholic he admits is generic and the name Roman 
 specific, and that the term Roman only indicated the church in which 
 this catholic communion is to be enjoyed : that the universal church 
 is found in the particular, the genus in the species. Thus we can 
 have Greek catholic, English catholic, American catholic, as well 
 as Roman catholic. These particular universals are susceptible of 
 indefinite multiplication. And so the catholicity of Rome is specifi- 
 cally the same with that of England ! ! 
 
 His second admission is equally unfortunate. He did not seem to 
 perceive that .he argued for me rather than against me, on the word 
 father. He said that it could not be understood literally. So said I. 
 How then must it be used but religiously 1 Call no man your religious, 
 or ecclesiastic Father. He has then fully conceded all that I ask. It 
 is then an absolute prohibition of the Roman Catholic notion of a 
 supreme holy father. To designate any person pope is then a viola- 
 tion of Christ's command. 
 
 The gentleman has admitted, somewhat reluctantly however, that 
 the Doway catechism is a standard work, and that the definition of 
 the church is infallibly correct. My argument hitherto has berrn to 
 shew that the supreme head called pope, being of the essential ele- 
 ments, nay the chief element of the Roman Catholic church, and not 
 found either in the bible or ecclesiastic history for ages after the Chris- 
 tian era, the church of Rome is a sect in the true import of that 
 word, and not the mother and mistress of all churches, for she cannot 
 be older than her head, unless a body can exist without and before its 
 head, which is impossible. It is not the nature of that head, whether 
 political or ecclesiastic or both, but the simple fact of its existence 
 concerning which we enquire. The nature and claims of the head 
 may hereafter be the subject of examination. That the Roman sect 
 is divided into four parties, touching the supremacy one affirming 
 that the pope is the fountain of all power political and religious 
 another teaching that he has only ecclesiastic supremacy a third 
 party affirming that his ecclesiastic dominion is over all councils, per- 
 Bons and things spiritual, and a fourth party limiting his jurisdiction 
 to a sort of executive pjesidency is a proposition susceptible of 
 ample proof, and of much importance, but we wish it to be very 
 distinctly stated that the question now before us is the fact that a 
 head, or universal father, pope or patriarch, is not found in the Roman 
 empire, east or west, for six hundred years, and consequently that 
 during that time that church did not exist, whose four essential ele- 
 ments, are a pope or supreme head, bishops, pastors and laity. 
 
 I am the more diffuse on this point because my learned opponent 
 eeems to mistake the question or to confound it with another of a diffe- 
 rent category. He seems to be squinting at infallibility, authority, 
 order in the ministry, rather than looking in the face the simple ques- 
 tion, was there a pope in any church for the first six centuries ? Authority 
 is not infallibility, nor is order, supremacy. I go for authority in the 
 president of the United States, but who infers thence that I hold the 
 president to be infallible ! I go for order in the Christian church, but 
 what has this to do with the supremacy of the bishop of Rome' 1
 
 28 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Why, I emphatically ask, does the bishop of Cincinnati confound the 
 question of fact before us with that concerning the Levitical priest- 
 hood. I have not agitated such a question. 
 
 And what have my views of church order and government to do 
 with the question before us. Why drag these matters into discussion. 
 Did I not distinctly say that I came not here to defend the tenets of 
 any party of Protestants, but the great principles of Protestantism 1 
 And what have my views of church order to do with the questions at 
 issue ! Of these however the gentleman is wholly misinformed. I am 
 the advocate of order, of a Christian ministry, of bishops and deacons 
 in the church. Without order no society can exist, and therefore no 
 reasonable man can object either to order or authority in the church 
 But again I ask what is this to the question in debate ! 
 
 He gave us too a dissertation on the passage, " lovest thoumemore 
 than these." This is certainly gratuitous at this time. I am glad 
 however the gentleman has delivered himself on this text. But this 
 is not the question now. We are seeking for a head for the church, 
 a papal head for the church in the first ages, while our friend is ex- 
 pounding scriptures on other themes. 
 
 To the authority of Du Pin the gentleman seems to except. But 
 on what authority does he object ? His works are certified by the 
 doctors of the Sorbonne and by the guardians of the Catholic press. 
 Will he say that he is not an authentic historian ? Du Pin was born 
 and educated, lived and died and was buried in the Roman Catholic 
 church. The gentleman proved, two or three months ago, that general 
 La Fayette was a Roman Catholic because he was baptized in the 
 church of Rome and buried in consecrated ground. Certainly then 
 Du Pin was all this and more ! It matters not whether he was a Jan- 
 senist or Jesuit. Both orders have been at different times in good and 
 bad repute. Jansenists have sometimes been proscribed, and Jesuits 
 have been suppressed. But the question is not, was he a good Ca- 
 tholic, but was he an authentic historian ? For a good Catholic is one 
 thing, and a good historian is another. I wish the gentleman to 
 answer. (Bishop Purcell. 1 answer emphatically, he was not an au- 
 thentic historian.) 
 
 Then this gentleman and the bishop of Bardstown are at variance. 
 The latter gentleman, if I mistake not, admitted in a discussion pub- 
 lished in the Catholic paper of that place, that Du Pin was an authen- 
 tic historian. I have seen this work repeatedly quoted in discussions 
 between Romanists and Protestants, and I do not recollect to have 
 seen any thing advanced against his authenticity. Mr. Hughes of 
 Philadelphia, but on different grounds than those stated by my opponent, 
 did indeed object to him as a faithful witness in his controversy with 
 Mr. Breckenridge. However while I wish it to go to the public that 
 bishop Purcell has objected to Du Pin as an authentic historian, I will 
 distinctly state that I rely upon him in this controversy only so far as 
 he is sustained by other historians, and therefore I will only quote 
 him in such matters as I know can be sustained from other sources. 
 Other historians record the same fact, and many of the works which 
 Du Pin quotes are not only extant but accessible. 
 
 The word catholic the gentleman has stated that it is of high anti- 
 quity and found at the head of some books of the Xew Testament. 
 But how came it into the Xew Testament ? Was it Robert Stephens 
 of Paris that placed it there in the 16th century as a sort of genera]
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 29 
 
 neading to certain epistles, or was it placed there by the apostles 
 themselves 1 ? 
 
 Touching the council of Nice and whether Sylvester had any thing 
 to do with its convocation, may hereafter be worthy of discussion ; 
 at present this is not before us. The decree of the council and its 
 convocation are distinct things. 
 
 Of the texts relied on by me to dispose of the pretensions of supre- 
 macy, the gentleman has taken special exception to Ep. iv. 11. and 
 would have different orders of ecclesiastic powers, rather than gift 
 for the edification of the church and the fitting of saints for the work 
 of the ministry, to be contained in that passage. But the text says 
 n;ifts and not lordships. Of these gifts vouchsafed by the ascended 
 Savior the first was apostles. " He gave first apostles, secondarily 
 prophets," and here again " he gave some apostles and some pro- 
 phets." No supremacy is expressed of an individual. It is not ranks 
 of authorities like civil or military functionaries, such as magistrates, 
 aldermen, constables, &c., but gifts of light and knowledge and grace, 
 the splendid gifts of the Holy Spirit ; gifts of teaching, preaching, ex- 
 horting, and setting- up the tabernacle or church. The apostles had 
 all authority and all gifts themselves; but they needed assistants and 
 a distribution of labor, and not an hierarchy, in laying the foundation 
 and in fitting saints for the work of the Christian ministry. 
 
 Having now touched all the relevant points in the Bishop's opening 
 speech, I hasten to my argument. 
 
 On examination of the New Testament, the primitive fathers, the 
 councils both provincial and general, down to the close of the 6th cen- 
 tury, we do not find in the whole territory claimed by our opponents 
 as yet, the idea or name of a supreme head, pope, or vicar of Christ. 
 
 My learned antagonist has not produced any such document, and 
 doubtless he knows if there be any such authority now extant, and 
 would produce it. 
 
 The strong expressions of Saint Gregory in opposition to the title 
 shew what a singular novelty it was in Rome during " his pontifi- 
 cate," and his bold declaration not only of the arrogance and blas- 
 phemy of the title, but of its aspect to all the bishops, as annulling 
 their equality, sufficiently prove that he rightly appreciated its true 
 meaning and its hostility to the genius of that simplicity and humility 
 which comported with the servants of Christ. So far then as we have 
 examined the evidence on hand, the defence of the Bishop, the argu- 
 ment as now developed stands thus : a pope, or universal patriarch, 
 is the first essential element of the Roman Catholic sect. But there 
 was no such personage in existence for 600 years after Christ, there- 
 fore there was no church of Rome, in the sense of the creed, during 
 the first six centuries. 
 
 We are now prepared to narrate the circumstances which ushered 
 into being the pope of Rome. Mauritius the emperor of the East died 
 Ht the hand of Phocas a centurion of his own army. Mauritius fa- 
 vored the pretensions of the bishop of Constantinople, and turned a 
 deaf ear to the importunities of Gregory on the subject of taking from 
 bishop John the title of universal father, so painful to the pride and 
 humility of the great Gregory. For the saint- had written to the em- 
 peror on the arrogance of John, metropolitan of the great diocese of 
 the east. Mauritius was supplanted and the throne usurped by Puo- 
 cas. Gregory re : oiced at his death, and hailed the elevation of his 
 c 2
 
 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 murderer to the throng. Gregory consecrated him, in the church 
 of Si. John the Baptist at Constantinople, and Phocas, as a re 
 ward for his consecration and favorable regards, conferred upon the 
 successor of Gregory, Boniface the third, the title of universal patri- 
 arch in the very sense in which it had been repudiated by Gregory. 
 Thus in the year 606 two years after the death of the saint, the 
 first pope was placed in the chair of the Galilean fisherman, if in- 
 deed Peter had ever sat in a chair inRome. 
 
 Concerning the consecration of Phocas, Mr. Gibbon thus remarks : 
 " The senate and clergy obeyed his summons, and as soon as the patriarch 
 was assured of his orthodox belief, he consecrated the successful usurper in the 
 church of St. John the Baptist. On the third day, amidst the acclamations of a 
 thoughtless people, Phocas made his public entry in a chariot drawn bv four 
 white horses: the revolt of the troops was rewarded by a lavish donation, and 
 the new sovereign, after visiting the palace, beheld from his throne the games 
 of the hippodrome." Gibbon's Decline and Fall Rom. Emp. vol. viii, p. 269. 
 
 But the infidel has good reason to laugh at the saint, where he re- 
 cords the exultation of Gregory at the death of Mauritius. 
 
 " As a subject and a Christian it was the duty of Gregory to acquiesce in the 
 established government; but the joyful applause with which he salutes the for- 
 tunes of the assassin, has sullied with indelible disgrace the character of the 
 saint. The successor of the apostles might have inculcated with decent firm- 
 ness the guilt of blood, and the necessity of repentance: he is content to cele- 
 brate the deliverance of the people and the fall of the oppressor; to rejoice that 
 the piety and benignity of Phocas have been raised by Providence to the imperial 
 throne; to pray that his hands may be strengthened against all his enemies ; and 
 to express a wish, perhaps a prophecy, that after a \ons and triumphant reign, he 
 mav be transferred from a temporal to an everlasting kingdom." Id. ib. p. 211. 
 
 It looks indeed as if Gregory had permitted the recollection of the 
 conduct of Mauritius towards his rival to mingle with his exultations 
 at the elevation of Phocas. When we recollect that Mauritius, his 
 wife, four sons and three daughters were immolated at the shrine of 
 the ambition of Phocas because be feared a rival, we are astonished 
 that saint Gregory could have called heaven and earth to rejoice in his 
 exaltation to the throne of the Caesars. His words are : 
 
 " Bt-nignitatem ve?trae pietatis ad imperiale fastigium perveni<se gaudemus. 
 Lastentur co^li et exultet terra, et <le vestris benignis actibus univers e rtipublir.-e 
 populus nunc usque vehementerafflictushilarescat,"&c. Greg-. I. xi. ep. 38, ind. vi. 
 
 It is not so honorable to the successors of Boniface the third, that 
 the title of pope in its supreme import, was conferred by so mean a 
 wretch as Phocas the usuper and murderer, and rather as a reward for 
 the temporizing and easy virtue of Gregory the first. Boniface, though 
 in the catalogue of popes he stands the 66th in descent from Peter, was 
 in truth the first pope of Rome in the sense which is placed in the 
 Catechisms and standards of the present church of Rome. 
 
 As yet the power was only ecclesiastic. But power is naturally 
 cumulative, and especially ecclesiastic. Let any person be imagin- 
 ed to wear at his girdle the keys of heaven, and the sword of spiritual 
 power, let him have kings and princes bowing at his footstool, and 
 we shall soon see him like Napoleon, stretching out his hand not only 
 to grasp the gorgeous crown of ecclesiastic but of political power. 
 
 But to complete the story of the origin of the papal power we must 
 add a few words on the assumptions of Saint Zachary, or Stephen the 
 Second. Pepin the father of Charlemagne was in the cabinet of 
 Childeric the king of France in those days. His master was a feeble 
 prince and he was an ambitious minister. He knew the power of the 
 pope, and before he dared to seize the throne of his master he deemed
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 31 
 
 it politic to consult the vicar of Christ. He placed himself before him 
 in this casuistic style. " Sir," said he, " whether is he that has the 
 name of prince without the power, or he who has the power without 
 the name, the rightful sovereign of a nation 1" The pope answered 
 him according to his wish. He was then absolved from all self cri- 
 mination, he seized the crown of his master, and rewarded the pope 
 with some temporal power : certain states in Italy which by his son 
 Charles the great were augmented, till he had the dominion of the 
 ancient Heruli the Ostrogoths and the Exarchate of Ravennah su- 
 peradded to his spiritual jurisdiction. Then did he assume the triple 
 crown and the two swords, and stood forth in full attire as filling all 
 the prophetic characters of the supreme head of that politico-eccle 
 siastic corporation called the church of Rome. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCEI.L 
 
 Fellow citizens My friend objects to my explanation of the term 
 "Roman Catholic." He observes that it has turned out no expl^na- 
 tion at all. His difficulty of apprehension on this particular point, is to 
 me, however, perfectly intelligible. The very name of our church is 
 a proof of its unity and universality ; and this, as he dislikes it, he 
 cannot, of course, understand. The word ' catholic' in ancient days 
 was used, as many other old and new words in Webster's dictionary, 
 for more purposes than one. Its true and principal sense was easily 
 ascertained in its application to the whole catholic church of Christ. 
 It was also used to designate the authority of certain chief national 
 churches, to distinguish them from inferior churches in the same dis- 
 tricts, and to mark the superiority of archbishops and patriarchs over 
 (heir brethren in the Episcopacy. The name of "Roman Catholic" 
 shewed the bond of union which bound all these various churches in 
 the profession of the faith of the chief see of the entire Christian 
 world. Hence it always brought to the believer's mind, in every 
 clime, the church which was the head, the great, primitive, senior 
 church, the church of Rome ; and as more people became converted 
 to the faith, they were called by their different and distinct appella- 
 tions, as English Roman Catholics American Roman Catholics 
 French Roman Catholics, &c. 
 
 As to the prohibition from calling any man ' Father," 1 &c. I said it 
 was not meant literally, and this he seizes as an admission that it is 
 a prohibition from calling " Father" in an ecclesiastical sense. This 
 may be true or not, but it does not prohibit us from calling the head 
 of our church " father" as one who cherishes, instructs, and otherwise 
 acts the part of a father towards us ; as he \vho adopts an orphan 
 child is, in a figurative sense, his father, though not literally married 
 to his mother. The gentleman cannot therefore understand me as 
 admitting his argument in my previous explanation. But this is mat- 
 ter too insignificant to waste more time on it. 
 
 Mr. Campbell tells us the church had no head for 600 years. This 
 is a strange representation ! The church was then a headless body. 
 I never heard of a body without a head, on which all the members 
 depend for the vital influences. But was there indeed no head to the 
 church'? \VasnotJesusChristthehead? and I say further that his 
 servant on earth, his humble servant, was the pope. The language 
 of Chris> himself, " on this rock will I build my church," refers not
 
 32 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 to the divine head of the church in Heaven, hut to the representative 
 cf his divine commission on earth. I affirm that what Christ thought 
 necessary in the days of the apostles, is necessary now ; and the 
 more remote we are from that day, the more necessary does it become. 
 Jesus Christ well knew that there must be scandals and errors ; and 
 he determined his church should not be left headless. We know this 
 head exists and where it resides ; but we are not slaves in the Ca- 
 tholic church. We acknowledge no mere human authority between 
 us and God. We are as free and untrammeled as any people under 
 heaven. It is not the man, but the authority, we respect. The man 
 may err, and if the pope claims a power not belonging to him, we 
 soon remind him of his mistake. How this lesson has been taught 
 to a few popes, the history of the church will show. 
 
 My friend now contradicts the statement he made to-day. He first 
 argued that the introduction of patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, 
 deacons, and so on, into the church, was of exotic growth and, as if he 
 had forgotten what he had previously denied, he turns round', and tells 
 us,*nearly in the same breath, that he goes for bishops and deacons and 
 orders. So far then, Mr. Campbell is a good Catholic, and I congra- 
 tulate him on this advance towards the truth. [Symptoms of applause 
 in the andience, were here manifested, but were immediately checked 
 by the moderators ; and bishop Purcell besought them, once for all, 
 to abstain from the least demonstration of the kind during the debate. 
 It was improper in a discussion of this character, and the house being 
 greatly crowded, much inconvenience would follow, and the debate 
 could not go on.] 
 
 As to the authority he has produced here (Du Pin's Ecclesiastical 
 history) I will remark that I consider Du Pin a learned man. I would 
 even select him as a splendid illustration of the strength imparted to 
 the human intellect by the Catholic intellectual discipline. He was 
 truly a prodigy of learning and of precision of style. But there was 
 a plague spot, a gangrene upon him, which must forever neutralize his 
 authority as a Catholic. Before the gentleman pronounced his name 
 we had a flourish of rhetoric, and a labored eulogy upon my tact in 
 managing this controversy. For my part, I must say that 1 am quite 
 a novice in these matters I am not accustomed to debate. My friend 
 has complimented me upon oratorical powers to which I lay no claim. 
 If I have any advantage, I owe it not to practice but to the force of truth. 
 
 Du Pin, on whom my friend relies as Catholic authority, recognized 
 by the church, was in constant correspondence with Wake, the arch- 
 bishop of Canterbury. He tried every stratagem to bring about a 
 re-union of the church of England, and ihe church of Rome. Leib- 
 nitz, and many a distinguished name, had previously labored in the 
 same vocation. But Revd. Dr. Du Pin's motives were, unfortunately, 
 suspicious. He proposed as the basis of the re-union, the abolition 
 of auricular confession, of religious vows, of the Lenten fast and ab- 
 stinence, of the pope's supremacy, and of the celibacy of the clergy. 
 He was himself, like Cranmer, secretly married ; and after his death, 
 his pretended wife came publicly forward to assert her right to his 
 goods and chattels. And this is Catholic authority ! 
 
 It is said these papers were discovered in his study after his death. 
 But he was censured by pope Clement XL even during his life-time; 
 and when, as I have stated, Louis XIV. removed him from among the 
 Doctors of the Sorbonne, Clement approved the act.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 33 
 
 If my friend can produce Roman Catholic authority, l*t him do so. 
 But let him not produce one that approaches with a mask. The 
 authority of Du Pin I have challenged on just grounds; but this has 
 nothing to do with the views I have stated upon the great question 
 we are discussing. 
 
 We are told that the commission spoken of in Ephesians, 4th 
 chapter, " To some he gave apostles, &c." confers, not powers, but 
 simply gifts. This I deny. St. Paul tells us authority was given to 
 the rulers of his church by Christ, not for their sakes but that we may 
 be no longer children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. They 
 were not, then, merely gifts, they were powers and authorities to re- 
 gulate the church, and to rule the people of God. These commissions 
 are the foundation of the church established on earth by Christ, before 
 he ascended on high. They were necessary, as the more solid parts 
 of a temple are first laid, that the whole building may afterwards 
 have strength, consistency, and symmetry. I deny that the church, 
 ever has been or could be without a foundation. The. foundation is 
 at least as necessary as the superstructure. Christ made Peter, there- 
 fore, the rock of his church, and was himself the corner stone whereon 
 that rock rested, as did the whole edifice securely rest upon the rock. 
 
 Why has Mr. Campbell anticipated the subject of the third or 
 fourth day of this discussion, and brought up the pope as the man of 
 sin the sea monster of Daniel the youngest horn of the beast ? &c. 
 For aught I know, he may prove the pope to be the sea serpent no 
 doubt his powers of logic are adequate to the task. We shall see. 
 
 Again the pope is not a tyrant, nor does he claim the title of Uni- 
 versal Father, in the sense in which Gregory rebuked John for claiming 
 it. Mr. Campbell has solved the question beforehand, in stating the 
 arrogant pretensions of the bishop of C. P. who pretended that all au- 
 thority proceeded from him. I do not derive all my authority from the 
 pope. The bishops of the United States consult together. They propose 
 candidates for the vacant sees ; and they send to Rome the names of 
 three clergymen, marked according to their judgment, "Worthy, 
 Worthier, Worthiest." The pope generally trusts to their wisdom, 
 and acquiesces in their choicf . It was thus that a certain testimony 
 of my fitness to succeed the venerable Fenwick, as bishop of this 
 diocese, was forwarded to Rome. The sovereign pontiff, Gregory 
 XVI. ratified the selection of the prelacy of the United States, and 
 expedited the brief, or letters, in rirtue of which I was ordained a 
 bishop ; but my power to consecrate, to baptize, and to perform other 
 episcopal functions, comes not from the pope ; it comes like that of 
 the apostles, directly from God. 
 
 There are other denominations, besides the Catholic, that contend 
 for the necessity of apostolical succession of orders and mission, and 
 these too are the objects of my friend's sarcasm. I select only two 
 the Episcopalians and the German Reformed. 
 
 In the last number of his Millennial Harbinger, in speaking of the 
 Episcopalian bishop Otey of Tennessee, he asks "why is bishop Otey 
 silent ] He either feels that his castle of Episcopalianism has been 
 demolished by the editor of the Harbinger (Mr. Campbell) or he does 
 not. If he feels that it has been overthrown, as an honest man he 
 ought to acknowledge it. But if he still thinks that he is adorning 
 ' the doctrine of God" by sustaining Episcopalianism, let him shew 
 his strength to such as wish to read both sides of the question. It is 
 
 3
 
 34 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 an apostolic admoni'ion to "contend earnestly foi the faith delivered 
 to -the saints." If he is sent of God, as he professes to be, as a faith- 
 ful \vatchman on Zion's walls, he should not remain mute ; hut cry 
 aloud, seeing his opinions have been politely assailed. Percontator." 
 
 Answer. Many reasons might be imagined for bishop Otey's si- 
 lence, but I will venture upon only one, viz. that like M. de La Motte 
 (I presume the witty and pious bishop of Amiens) he is waiting for a 
 reply (o his silence. How, &c. 
 
 Again Mr. Lancellot Bell, addressing the editor, Mr. Campbell 
 (yid. Mil. Harbinger, p. 570.) says "I accompanied brother L. to 
 Cavetown, where he addressed the citizens, &c. Two of the " called 
 and sent" of the German Reformed church, considering, I suppose, 
 their " craft in danger," came to the place, and I spoke against these 
 things, contradicting, who were going to express^ it in the language 
 of some of the people, to "lick us up like salt," ic. &c. 
 
 Mr. Campbell, therefore, has changed his tone ; he is now in favor 
 of orders; a"nd this change has apparently taken place' within a few 
 days. 
 
 I have proved that the headship of t u e church was no new thing 
 in the beginning of the fourth century. Du Pin spoke of the decision 
 of the council of Nice, respecting the contest between the bishops 
 of Alexandria and of Rome, but said that this decision of the council 
 did not disprove the primacy of Rome, so that this doctrine is at least 
 as old as the year 318, when Sylvester of Rome presided by his 
 legate Osius of Cordova at the council of Nice. This shows that the 
 authority of Rome was then recognized. He spoke of the council of 
 Chalcedon. I have here an authentic historian recognized by the Ca- 
 tholics, and one who tells sharp truths of individual Catholics, when 
 he conceives them to be in the wrong. It is Barronius. In his Annals, 
 year of Christ 451, of pope Leo, 12th, twenty seventh of Valentine and 
 2nd of Mareian, he says that in this council the authority of the see 
 of Peter was recognized. 360 bishops met in this council. Circum- 
 stances not permitting pope Leo to assist at it in person, he sent three 
 legates, two bishops and a priest, to preside in his -name. At the first 
 session Paschasinus, bishop of Lillibeum, and one of the legates of the 
 pope, preferred charges against Dioscorus, patriarch of Alexandria, for 
 his uncanonical conduct in the conventicle of Ephesus. 
 
 Dioscorus, thus accused and convicted, was compelled to leave his 
 seat and sit in an inferior. place in the middle of the assembly. Sub- 
 sequently a sentence of deposition was pronounced against him ; and 
 as his guilt was manifest, he left the assembly and appeared no more. 
 The fathers of the council unanimously exclaimed that the doctrinal 
 decisions of Leo were those of Peter himself " Petrus per Leonem 
 locutus est" Peter hath spoken by the mouth of Leo. (vid. Reeves, 
 1st vol. 263.) the fathers of the council directed to St. Leo a synodical 
 letter, in which they acknowledge him for the interpreter of St. Peter, 
 for their head and guide." (vid. Barronius, ibid.) Now here is the au- 
 thority of the first general council of Nice, as quoted by Labbe. 
 Greek bishops say : 
 
 COUNCILS. 
 
 "The Roman church has always had the primacy." (Labbe, t. 2. p. 41.) 
 
 The second general council and first of Constantinople says : 
 
 " Let the bishop of Constantinople have the first share ot honor after the bish 
 op of Rome." (Alexandria was emitted to the sccouu rank.)
 
 ROMAW CATHOLIC RELIGION. 35 
 
 The third general council of Ephesus says: 
 
 " St. Peter, the prince and head of the apostles, the foundation of the Catho!ic 
 church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, and the 
 power of loosing and of binding sin was given to him, which to the present 
 time, ns it ever has done, subsists and exercises judgment in his successors." 
 
 The fourth general council of Chalcedon, writing to St. Leo, says : 
 
 " We therefore entreat you, to honor our judgment by your decrees; and as we 
 have, adhered to our head in good things, so let your supremacy supply what 
 becometh (or is wanting) for thy children." 
 
 The council of Florence in which the Greek and Latin bishops were 
 present, thus speaks : 
 
 " We define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold the prima- 
 cy over the entire earth, and that he is the successor of the blessed Peter, the 
 prince of the apostles, the true vicar of Christ, and the head of the whole church,' 
 tc. T. 13. p. 515. 
 
 The general council of Trent, speaks in the following terras : 
 
 . "The sovereign pontilts, in virtue of the supreme power delivered to them 
 over the entire church, had a right to reserve the judgment of certain more 
 grievous crimes to their own tribunal." 
 
 Melancthon holds the following language, as quoted by Bossuet in 
 his history of the variations. L. 5, n. 24. 
 
 "Our people agree, that the ecclesiastical polity, in which are recognized 
 supei ior bishops of many churches and the bishop of Rome superior to all bish- 
 ops, is permitted. Thus there is uo contest respecting the supremacy of the 
 pope and the authority of bishops, and also the pope and the bishops could pasi- 
 ly preserve this authority, for it is necessary for a church to have leaders to 
 maintain order, to keep an eye upon those called to the ecclesiastical state, and 
 upon the doctrine of the priests, and to exercise ecclesiastical judgment, so that 
 if there were no bishops we would have to make them. The monarchy of the 
 pope would also serve much to preserve amongst many nations the unity of 
 doctrine; wherefore we could easily agree as to the supremacy of the pope if we 
 could agree in every thing else." 
 
 Leibnitz, as quoted by De Starck, p. 22, speaks as follows: 
 " As God is the God of order, and as by divine appointment, the body of the 
 only, apostolic, Catholic church can be maintained by a single, hierarchical and 
 universal government, it follows, that there must be a supreme spiritual chief, 
 who shall be confined within proper bounds, established by the same (divine) 
 right, and invested with all the power and dictatorial authority necessary for 
 the preservation of the church." 
 
 FATHERS. 
 
 St. Irenaeus of Lyons, the disciple of St. Polycarp, who himself ap- 
 pears to have been consecrated by St. John the Evangelist, repeatedly 
 urges this argument against his contemporary heretics. He says : 
 
 " We can count up those who were appointed bishops in the churches by 
 the apostles and their successors down to us, none of whom taught this doctrine. 
 But as it would he tedious to enumerate the succession of bishops in the differ- 
 ent churches, we refer you to the tradition of that greatest, most ancient, and 
 universally known church, founded at Rome by St. Peter and St. Paul, and 
 which lias been preserved there through the succession of its bishops, down to 
 the present time." 
 
 Tertullian, who also flourished in the same century (year 150), argues 
 in the 'same manner and challenges certain heretics in these terms : 
 
 'Let them produce the origin ol their church ; let them display the succession 
 of their bishops, so that the first of them may appear to have be'en ordained by 
 an apostolic man, who per<ev* red in their communion." 
 
 St. Athanasius writes to St. Felix, the Roman Pontiff: 
 
 " For this purpose Christ placed you and your predecessors to guide the ark 
 and to have the care of all the churches, that you may help us." 
 
 St. Cyprian, in his 55th Epistle, holds the following language: 
 "They dare to sail and carry letters to the chair of Peter and the principal 
 church, whence sacerdotal unity proceeds."
 
 36 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 St. Augustin, who wrote in the fifth century, mentions the fol' owing 
 among other motives of credibility in favor of the Catholic religion. 
 
 "There are. many other things which keep me iu the bosom oi tii. C.uiiuiic 
 church. The agreement of different people and nations keeps me tht-rt. J iit 
 authority established by miracles, nourished by hope, increased by charity, and 
 confirmed by antiquity, keeps me there. The succession of bishops in the see of 
 St. Peter, the apostle (to wnom our Lord after his resurrection, committed his 
 sheep to be fed) down to the present bishop, keeps me there. Finally the very 
 name of CATHOLIC which, among so many heresies, this church alone possesses, 
 keeps me there." 
 
 St. Jerome in his 4th Epistle to pope Damasus says: 
 
 "I, following no leader but Christ, am in communion with vour holiness, tliat 
 is, with the chair of Peter. Whoever gathereth not with you gcatttTtth, that is, 
 whoever is not of Christ is of anti-Christ." 
 
 This is, in substance, the testimony of the bishops throughout the 
 world, in every age to the present time. [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 MB. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 On the subject of the emendation of the term Roman Catholic, bj 
 prefixing the word English, &c., I am willing that my friend should 
 have all the advantage to be derived from that explanation. I am 
 willing that he should appear before the public with that explanation, 
 if he thinks it can help the matter. On the same principle he may 
 say the Philadelphia Pittsburg church of Cincinnati. The church, 
 I argued, had no mortal head for six hundred years. He certainly 
 could not have understood me as denying that Christ was the head 
 of his church! I admit that Christ is the immortal head of the church 
 which is his body, and Christ is her only head. Christ's church re- 
 quires a living and omnipresent head. She needs not two heads, for 
 her head is the head of all principality and power. Can the pope be 
 omnipresent, keeping order in all his dominions 1 
 
 I was surprised at Ihe gentleman's hypothesis, that if I argued that 
 the church had no visible and human head for six hundred years, I 
 then asserted that Christ was not the head of his church. I spoke 
 not of Christ, hut of the great hierarch on earth, who claims to be the 
 fountain of all power and authority in the church. Could he not 
 understand me 1 
 
 The gentleman says, that the Catholics are as free as others. I ask 
 have they the same liberty to read the Bible, to think and act for 
 themselves, as have the Protestants ? I am sorry that he seemed to 
 take advantage of my acknowledging myself a friend to bishops and 
 deacons in the church. In my enumeration of the different orders, in 
 the present Roman church, I mentioned ^rcA-bishops and drc/i-deacons ; 
 but he did not hear me say bishops and deacons. They were on pur- 
 pose left out of that enumeration, that I might nof fall into the error 
 which he has imagined for me. 
 
 I dispose of the gentleman's extract from the Millennia] Harbinger 
 and of his learned remarks upon them, by informing him that he has 
 mistaken the writer : I am not the author of the article in question. 
 
 Still I must ask, why this evasion of the question in debate 7 Why 
 seek to excite the odium theologicum, on account of some distorted 
 theory unjustly attributed to me on subjects, too, wholly foreign to 
 this debate !' Are these the weapons by which my learned opponent 
 is compelled to defend the "' mother and mistress of all churches" from
 
 KOMAJf CATHOLIC RELIGION. 37 
 
 Ine charge of unscriptural, and unfounded assumptions ? Let no one 
 imagine, however, that 1 am at all opposed to order and government 
 in the church. As far as concerns oversight, or the having of bishops 
 to preside over the flock, I am an Episcopalian. lam for having pres- 
 byters or elders in every church. I do not believe in a church without 
 presbyters or bishops. So far I am both a Presbyterian and an Epis- 
 copalian. 
 
 On the subject of the primacy of Rome, the gentleman quoted Bar* 
 ronius, and snarled at Du Pin. Bu< it is too late for any bishop of 
 &ome, or of England to stand up in this nineteenth century and tell 
 as that Du Pin is not an authentic historian. My friend intimates 
 that the certificates in the preface were suborned. What a charge on 
 the learned and venerable author of this work ! 
 
 [Bishop Purcell here said, that those certificates being in the bSok pro- 
 ved nothing : that they might have been put there by the printer.] 
 
 I' will now read these attestations and vouchers that you may judge 
 bow gratuitous are the objections and insinuations of the bishop. 
 
 THE APPROBATION OF THE DOCTORS OF THE SGRBONNE. 
 "The whole world has openly declared the esteem which they think clue to 
 the New History of Ecclesiastical Writers, that we could not but be sensible 
 of the complaisance shewn to us, since the judgment we had formed of it was 
 followed, supported and authorized by that of the public. 
 ********** 
 
 "All those who have already read them, will here find what will recall to their 
 memory many things they may have forgotten, and will see with pleasure, that 
 our author has reduced their doctrines to certain principles, by which they show 
 their solidity and coherence. Those who wish to read them will here meet 
 with what will save them much time and trouble; and those that are engaged in 
 that long and wearisome journey, will at least have the advantage of a faithful 
 and experienced guide, who will lead them only through paths equally safe and 
 known. Both the one and the other will meet with a piece of criticism which 
 is always clear, prudent, and upright; distinguishes what is certain from tha* 
 which is false or doubtful; never precipitates the judgment, nor lays down sim- 
 ple conjectures in place of demonstrative proofs; gives to every thing what it 
 merits, purely on its own account ; and the better to attend to reason, banishes 
 all prejudices and looks at nothing in its search after truth, but truth itself; nor 
 condemns, only, where it cannot excuse. 
 
 ******* 
 
 "Given at Paris, August 18th, 1688. 
 
 BLAMPIGIVON, Rector of St. Merris. 
 HIDEUX, Rector of St. Innocents." 
 
 APPROBATION OF THE ROYAL CENSOR. 
 
 ity of the Faculty 
 
 and Regius Professor of Philosophy: Containing the History of the Church, 
 and of ecclesiastical Authors, and from the year 1550, to the year 1600; [a 
 which I find nothing- to hinder its being printed. 
 "Given this 18th day of January, 1703. 
 
 BLAMPIGNON, Curate of St. Merris." 
 
 APPROBATION OF THE DOCTORS OF DIVINITY OF THE FACULTY OF PARIS. 
 "We whose names are under written, Doctors of Divinity of the Faculty of 
 Divinity of Paris, certify, that we have examined a book, entitled "A History 
 of the Church, and of ecclesiastical Authors, in the sixteenth century;" by Mes- 
 sieur Lewis Ellies Du Pin, Priest, Doctor of Divinity of the Faculty of Paris, 
 and Regius Professor of Philosophy : and that we have found nothing therein 
 contrary to the Catholic faith, or io good manners. In assurance whereof, 
 have set uur hands this 20th day of January, 1703. 
 
 BLAM-PIGXON, Curate of St. Merrii 
 HIDEUX, Curate of St. Innocents."
 
 38 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 I put it now to the good sense of my audience, whether such testi- 
 monies are to be set aside, by saying that the printer may have forged 
 or printed them on his own responsibility. 
 
 The divine warrant for the primacy of the pope is not the question 
 on which the gentleman read from Barronius. There are two things 
 in every history, the statement of facts, and the comment on those 
 facts. The opinion of the historian is like the opinion of the reader; 
 but the facts stated are common property ; and these are the proper 
 materials of his work. Barronius does not, however, on the point in 
 debate, state a fact contrary to Du Pin. There were, indeed, prima- 
 cies at Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem. But 
 the primacy of a, metropolitan, and the doctrine of an universal pri- 
 macy over all metropolitans at any one place, is a differen'; matter. I 
 coul<f not understand in what sense he meant to be understood when 
 he said Gregory could not go for primacy in " that sense." Was 
 there a peculiar mysterious meaning attached to the claim or title 
 which Gregory reprobated 1 It has not been proved that any contem- 
 porary understood it so. I affirm that there was not an intelligent 
 Catholic of that day who understood the title of universal patriarch, 
 in any other sense than that in which, it is understood among us now. 
 The person first established in the primacy of Rome exercised a uni- 
 versal superintendency over the church exactly similar to that first 
 claimed by the bishop of Constantinople. 
 
 My friend says, ' the author from whom he read you states the fact 
 of such a primacy early in the Roman Church.' If we examine the 
 authority we shall see, it is nothing but the opinion of a fallible man; 
 and that opinion contrary to all ancient history. I affirm that there 
 is no ecclesiastical historian of authority, who attests the fact, which 
 he is desirous to prove. It is one thing to state a fact, as a historian, 
 and another to state an opinion or commentary on a fact. The ques- 
 tion before us, is not the metropolitan primacy of Rome, or Antioch, 
 or Alexandria ; but the universal primacy of the whole church ! 
 
 I admit, as to the council of Nice, what it was said Du Pin asser- 
 ted, viz. ' that the sixth canon does not deny the primacy of Rome.' 
 But Du Pin goes further, (and why did not the gentleman read all 
 that Du Pin asserts ^) I read it all. I told the whole truth respect- 
 ing it the gentleman has told you but the half of it Du Pin says 
 " this canon does not preclude the idea :" but " neither," says he, "docs 
 if establish it." I am for quoting the whole authority. Du Pin, as a 
 Catholic, was endeavoring to find some authority for supporting the 
 antiquity of the primacy of the see of Rome. He is examining the 
 canons of the council carefully, and he says that though this canon 
 does not preclude the primacy, "VET NEITHER DOES IT ESTABLISH IT." 
 It afforded him nothing for or against it. And what other decree 01 
 council did establish it 1 ! That is a secret the bishop will never 
 reveal. 
 
 Let us now return to my argument. I left off at the year 750, and 
 was in pursuit of the day, when the present church of Rome began. 
 I hasten to establish it. 
 
 It would be both tedious and unnecessary to read, or narrate the 
 Quarrels between Nicholas of Rome and Photius of Constantinople, 
 on the vital question who shall be the greatest 1 which greatly pre- 
 pared the way for the grand schism. We have not time for thi.s, as 
 we are now, before we sit down, to give you the day and date of the
 
 EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGICW. d9 
 
 separation of the Roman church from the Greek church, which must 
 be regarded as the day of her separate existence, when she became 
 what she now is, a schism, or sect. 
 
 There was a violent contest between the patriarch of Constantinople 
 and the patriarch of Rome, or pope, if you please, (for I state em- 
 phatically, that the idea of a supreme head of the church had never 
 been digested in the east, and though the eastern church may have 
 submitted, or acquiesced for the time being, she never did consent to 
 it). The promotion of the layman Photius, gifted and splendid aa 
 he was, to the primacy of Constantinople, greatly vexed his holiness 
 of Rome. Indeed, from the time of Victor, bishop of Rome, A. D. 
 197, who assumed to exercise jurisdiction out of his proper diocese, 
 in respect to the observance of Easter, there never was a cordial feel- 
 ing of unity, or co-operation between the eastern and western por- 
 tions of the church. The arrogance of Victor, called for strong ex- 
 pressions of insubordination on the part of the Asiatic brethren, who 
 claimed for themselves as much license to dictate to the western, as 
 he had to the eastern church. 
 
 The " Catholic" body was not yet divided into two great masses. 
 Photius had charge of the church of Constantinople. Nicholas of 
 Rome was indignant that a layman should hold the high dp;nity of 
 patriarch of the eastern church, however the emperor and tb? church 
 might think. To make matters worse, they excommunic i'ed each 
 other, which laid the foundation of dissentious and bad feeli / t, which 
 to this very day, never have been atoned. For the jealoufi'-,'. and ri- 
 valries of these two bishops never slumbered nor slept, till '/.f; church 
 was divided into what have since been called the Greek v*\ Latin 
 churches. All historians, give substantially the sameacconrl of this 
 matter. I will read an extract or two from Du Pin. 
 
 "Though the Latin and Greek churches were not in close communion with each 
 other ever since the affair of Photius, yet they did not proceed to an open rup- 
 ture till the tinif of pope Leo IX. and ofJUichael Cerularius, patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople. This breach began by a letter which the latter wrote in the yeai 
 1053, in his own name, and in the name of Leo archbishop of Acridia and of 
 all Bulgaria, to John bishop of Trani in Apulia, that he might communicate it 
 to the pope ami to all the western church. In this letter they reproved the Lat- 
 ins, (1) Because they made use of unleavened bread in the celebration of the 
 encharist. (2) Because they fasted on Saturdays in Lent. (3) Because they 
 eat the blood of beasts, and things strangled. (4) Because they did not sing 
 Alleluiah in Lent." &<-. &<-. Vol. ii. p. 234. 
 
 The patriarch of Constantinople first anathematized Leo IX. ec- 
 clesiastically cursed him and his party, and this may have provoked 
 severer measures against the Greeks than were at first contemplated 
 by the Latins. It is, however, an important fact, that the Greeks were 
 the first excommunic'itors. 
 
 The pope of Rome sent three legates to Constantinople, under pre- 
 tence of healing the divisions and strifes existing, who had, secretly 
 In their pockets, a bull of excommunication against the patriarch and 
 his party. They were instructed to exhort him to yield ; but if they 
 found him incorrigible, they were to fulminate against hi >i the dread 
 anathema. After a fruitless attempt to bring over the patriarch by 
 mild means, they entered the church of St. Sophia, at noon day, on 
 the l(Uh of July, in the year 1054, and mounting the altar read aloud 
 the bull of excommunication, before the people, wi then departed, 
 ehakinir off the dust ot their feet against the patrlaieh, his city and 
 people. The bull speal s on this wise :
 
 40 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 " The Holy Apostolic see of Rome, which is the chief of the whole world, 
 to which as to the head belongs in a more especial manner the care of all th 
 churches; has S( nt us to this royal city in the quality of its legates, tor the welfare 
 and peace of the church, that as it is written, we should go down and see whe- 
 ther the cries which pierce its ears from this great city be true or no. 
 
 Let therefore the emperors, clergy, senate and people of this city of Constan- 
 tinople know, that we have here found more good to excite our joy, than evil 
 to raise our sorrow. For as to the supporters of the empire, and the principal 
 citizens, the city is wholly Christian and orthodox: but as for Michael, who 
 look upon him the false title of patriarch, and his adherents, we have 
 found that they have sown discord and heresy in the midst of this city * 
 * * because they rebaptized, as (fid the Arians, those who had been bap 
 tized in the name of the blessed trinity, and particularly the Latins; because 
 with the Donatists they maintain that the Greek church is the only true church, 
 and that the sacrifices and baptism of none else are valid." 
 
 ** * * * * * * 
 
 The Greek church, be it noted with all distinctness, did stand upon 
 this point, that she was the only true church ; and that no ordinance, 
 baptism or the eucharist. was at all valid, unless administered by her <z- 
 thority. 
 
 I will read a little further : 
 
 " Michael having been advertized of these errors" &C.&C. " refused to appear 
 before, or to have any conference with us, and has likewise forbad our entrance 
 into the churches to perform divine service therein forasmuch as he had for- 
 merly shut up the churches of the Latins, calling them AzymitcK, persecuting 
 and excommunicating them, all whieh reflected on the holy see, in contempt 
 whereof he styled himself CEcu.ME.MCAL or UNIVERSAL PATRIARCH. Where- 
 fore not being able any longer to tolerate such an unheard of abuse as was of- 
 fered to the holy apostolical see, and looking upon it as a violation of the Ca- 
 tholic faith in several instances, &c., "We do subscribe to the anathema which 
 our most holy father the pope has denounced against Michael and his adhe- 
 rents, if they do not retract their errors." <fcc. Id. ib. p. 236. 
 
 If then, there be any truth in history, from that day the present 
 sect of the church of Rome began its existence. 
 
 It never was fully, or cordially conceded by the Greek church, that 
 the pope was, or ought to be, the universal father ; and it may be 
 affirmed in all truth, that this was the real cause of the schism. 
 
 To recapitulate, thus far, in seeking for the papal head, so essen- 
 tial to the Roman church, we find it not in the New Testament, in 
 the ancient fathers, in the canons of the first general councils, nor in 
 the history of the church, till the commencement of the seventh cen- 
 tury. On the authority of Barronius, it is said that Phocas gave the 
 title to. Boniface the 3rd in the year 606. We have also seen, that 
 Pepin, another usurper, gave temporal estates and political dominion 
 to the popes about the middle of the 8th century, and that on the 16th 
 of July 1054 the Western or Roman half of the church, after having 
 been first anathematized by the Eastern or Greek half, did solemnly 
 separate itself from the communion of the Greek church by an 
 anathema. Hence, both the origin and the name of the church of 
 Rome. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP Pi ICELL rises 
 
 My friend Mr. Campbell has fought a noble battle for me. I shall 
 prove that presently. Gibbon was an infidel, and became so be- 
 cause his father would not allow him to embrace the Roman Cath- 
 olic faith. He was a prodigy of mind, and his intellect was so 
 precocious that even when only sixteen years old, he read, I think
 
 KOMAJT CATHOLIC RELIGION. 41 
 
 it was, Bossuet's Universal History, by which he was convinced of 
 the truth of the Catholic religion. His father (sad proof of the re- 
 straints on liberty of conscience, as exemplified in Protestant commu- 
 nities) persecuted him for this, and sent him to Lausanne, in Switzer- 
 land, where, under the close surveillance of Pavillard a Calvinist 
 minister, he was confined, debarred the reading of Catholic books, 
 and fed on bread and water, till at last he yielded his creed for better 
 fare. He thus became an infidel, and wrote against all religions. 
 But a man who could thus shrink from duty to that faith which he 
 believed true, because he was persecuted, was not fit to appreciate the 
 beauty of the religion that had attracted him ; nor the sublime testi- 
 mony rendered to its divinity by its martyrs' blood. If he could 
 thus prove recreant to the only one which he loved, no wonder he be- 
 came opposed to all. 
 
 Such are the authorities against which I have to militate. 
 
 The gentleman told us that he would put his finger upon the precise 
 day and date, as recorded in history, when the Roman church separa- 
 ted from 1 the holy and ancient apostolic church, but he has not kept his 
 word. I warrant that that pledge will never be redeemed. (Mr. 
 Campbell here explained that he had fixed it at the 16th July, 1054.) 
 If then the Catholic church ceased to be the true church in 1054, 
 where was the church of Christ] Where was the true Catholic church, 
 from which the Romun Catholic church separated * " Behold I am 
 ALWAYS with you," says Christ, " and I will send you another Para- 
 clete who will abide with you ALL DAYS." Matth. xxviii. 20. 
 
 If the true church was no where if Christ had no witness on earth, 
 his promises have failed ; and Revelation is a solecism. A church, 
 unless it be conspicuous, unless every enquirer can have access to it. 
 is of no use as a witness of truth to mankind. If hid, how can it 
 testify of the true doctrine of Christ to all nations 1 But mark the 
 .splendid testimony in favor of the purity and watchfulness of the 
 Roman Catholic church, afforded by history. How did the schism 
 of the Greek church begin? A layman Photius intruded and de- 
 clared himself the head of the church. This single fact is a splendid 
 argument of itself, to prove the necessity of a supreme head to watch 
 over the church. To use a Scriptural phrase, he was like a faithful 
 sentinel upon the walls of Zion, to sound the warning to the world, 
 or, if you will, not to resemble "a dumb dog," but to bark at the approach 
 of the thief, who came not in at the gate, but came by another way 
 into the fold, and he did bark at him ; and Photius and Michael Ceru- 
 larius and other Greek intruders and errorists, not content with as- 
 suming a power not belonging to them, actually cursed and anathe- 
 matized the pope of Rom?, a proof perhaps of the amiable character 
 the gentleman gives the enemies of order and of the pope, but a suf- 
 ficient reason why the pope should exert all his authority in protect- 
 ing the church from their usurpations. 
 
 l3ut the three legates to jvhom the commission was entrusted, car- 
 ried the bull of excommunication in their pockets, and they are made 
 to appear very treacherous because they did not produce it at once, 
 but tried by pacific measures to bring about a reconciliation. Is it in 
 the gentleman's estimation, then, an evidence of treachery, to resor* tc. 
 persuasive means with an enc-my, before appealing to the sword and 
 involving one's country in war'? Suppose the president of the United 
 States sends a minister to a foreign country to obtain the settlement
 
 42 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 of a disputed question. Does that minister begin by declaring war, 
 by forcing his proposal with a bayonet down the throats of the peo- 
 ple to whom he is accredited? No, he tries every mild means first. 
 The contrary course would be neither politic nor wise, neither humane 
 nor in accordance with the rules of civilized society. The great and 
 the peculiar character of the people of the United States, is neither 
 to provoke nor to brook aggression. If her rights are violated, she 
 endeavors to convince the violator of his injustice, to disabuse him 
 of his error, to win him back to a sense of rectitude by persuasion 
 and just remonstrance. If this fails, she resorts to arms, and though 
 she loves peace she is prepared for war. In a word she is terribly 
 peaceful. Now mark the course of the legates. They entreat Michael 
 to reconsider his conduct, they urge every argument that zeal can sug 
 gest, but finding all their efforts fruitless, they afterwards act in pur 
 suance of their instructions, with perfect ingenuousness and openness 
 Observe their procedure. They ascend the altar of the great church 
 of St. Sophia, the seventh wonder of the world at whose portals 
 stood that large vase for the holy water, wherewith Greeks, and Ro- 
 mans, commemorating the sprinkling of the blood of Christ, by which 
 our consciences are purified from dead works to serve the living God, 
 were accustomed alike to bless themselves; and on which were in- 
 scribed the Greek words "NiWcx Ayi^fioLTy. j^n /ucvm o^jv" " purify O 
 God, our transgressions, and not our countenance only." They went 
 on the altar and in a formal speech explained to the assembled multi- 
 tude what were the grounds of the anathema. The crime of .Mi- 
 chael was that in defiance of the prohibitions both of the old and new 
 law, he had made eunuchs priests. He was also accused of Arian- 
 ism. Now the Arians deny the divinity of Christ I have heard 
 from some of our most respectable citizens, that Mr. Campbell also 
 denies that cardinal dogma, but I do not vouch for the correctness of 
 their assertion. (MR. CAMPBELL here stated that he did not deny the 
 divinity of Christ.) 
 
 It appears pretty plain from history that the people were for the 
 legates and opposed to their own usurping archbishop. Why? "The 
 legates flattered them." But how 1 So far from it their whole argument 
 was directed against a man living amongst this very people, and for 
 an individual far distant. It is natural to suppose that the people 
 were prejudiced in favor of their own archbishop and against one who 
 was a stranger to them. In short, were they not speaking against the 
 primacy and the assumptions of the ecclesiastical dignitary of the 
 very church in which they spoke, and of the very people to whom they 
 spoke. Did they flatter the clergy 1 no ; they strongly inveighed 
 against the unscriptural and uncanonical ordination of the odious eu- 
 nuchs, by w horn the patriarch was surrounded. This was a fine il- 
 lustration of the zeal for sound doctrine and discipline, displayed in 
 every previous and subsequent age by the holy see. It was acting 
 on the apostolic maxim It is better to. obey God than man That 
 duties are ours and consequences are God's. 
 
 " Oh Timothy, guard the deposit" (of faith) said St. Paul. 
 
 " JN'ow the spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times, some shall depart 
 from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, speaking lies in hypocrisy, haying 
 their consciences seared with a red hot iron. These things proposing to the 
 brethren thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the 
 words of the faith and of the good doctrine, \v hereunto thou hast attained " 
 1st Kp. tc Tim. ch. in. v. I. 2. 6.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 43 
 
 Thus on this occasion did the pope. 
 
 My friend could not understand in what sense the patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople claimed the title of universal bishop ; and wanted to learn 
 how his claim differed from the present understanding of the office. 
 He has the answer in this history of facts. He has, or his authority 
 Du Pin has for him, admitted that this Michael had said in effect that 
 he was Lord God over all the earth : and that there was no authority 
 -without his sanction for any officer of the church to perform any of 
 the ordinances of religion. Even the pope of Rome must crouch to 
 his feet before he could administer the eucharist or even baptize an 
 infant. And the historian says that the document accusing the arch- 
 bishop was read before the people of Constantinople the very city 
 where he reigned, where he was known, and where all the facts of 
 the case were before them. What is the most natural supposition ? 
 Surely this ; that if that document had not been true the people would 
 have cried out against it ; they would not have assented to it. So 
 that all this is a splendid triumph of the supremacy of the Roman see. 
 But why refer to particular instances, when ecclesiastical history is 
 full of appeals made to the bishop of Rome by all the other bishops 
 of Christendom, and all acquiescing in his decision as not only the de- 
 cision of Peter, but of Christ himself. "The extraordinary commis- 
 sion given to Paul," says Bossuet, " expired with him in Rome, and 
 blending with the authority of Peter, to which it was subordinate, 
 raised the Roman see to the height of authority and glory. This is 
 the church which, taught by Peter and his successors, has never been 
 infected with heresy. This power of binding and loosing from sin, 
 was given first to Peter and then to the rest of the twelve apostles. 
 For it was manifestly the design of Jesus Christ, to place first in one 
 what he afterwards intended to confer on many, but the sequel impairs 
 not the commencement, nor does the first lose his place. All receive 
 the same power from the same source, but not all in the same degree, 
 nor to the same extent, for Jesus Christ communicates himself as he 
 pleases, and always in the manner best calculated to establish the uni- 
 ty of the church." " Peter," says St. Augustin, " who, in the honor 
 of his primacy, represented the entire church, first and alone, receives 
 the keys, which were next to be communicated to all the others." The 
 reason of this is assigned by St. Casarius of Aries, that the ecclesiastical 
 authority, first established in a single bishop, and afterwards diffused 
 among many, may be forever brought back to the principle of unity, 
 and remain inseparably united in the same chair. This is the Roman 
 chaii, the chair of Peter so much celebrated by the Fathers, in which 
 they vied with one another in extolling the principality of the apostolic 
 chair, the principal principality, the source of unity, the mother 
 church, the head for centre) of the episcopacy, whence parts the ray of 
 government, the chief, the only see which bindeth all in unity." 
 
 frn these words you hear Optatus, St. Augustin, St. Cyprian, St. 
 Jrenaeus, St. Prosper, St. Aviius, Theodoret, the council ofChalcedon, 
 Africa and Gaul, Greece and Asia, the east and the west united toge- 
 ther. This is the doctrine of all the church ; this is its unity and 
 strength. Here all is strong because all is divine, all is united. And 
 as each part is divine, the bond also is divine, and the union and 
 arrangement such that each member acts with the force of the entire 
 body. Hence whilst the ancient bishops said, they exercised author-
 
 44 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 'ty in their respective churches as the vicars of Jesus Christ and suo 
 cessors of the apostles sent immediately by him, they also declared 
 that they acted in the name of Peter in virtue of the authority given to 
 all bishops in the person of Peter; so that the correspondence, the 
 union and harmony of the entire body of the church are such that what 
 one bishop does, in accordance with the spirit and rules of Catholic 
 unity, all the church, all the Episcopacy, and the chief of the Episco- 
 pacy act in concert and accomplish with him. 
 
 My friend observes that the Greeks were always uneasy under the 
 Roman popedom. I admit this to a great estent, but St. John, and 
 Polycarp, and Ignatius and Irenaeus (his name signifies Peace, or the 
 peaceful) and Eusebius and Chrysostom and a hundred ethers were 
 Greeks, and the most eloquent advocates, and the ablest supporters of 
 the preeminence of the church of Rome above all other churches. 
 
 Here then is a cloud of witnesses who furnish an astonishing mass 
 of testimony to the fact that in the early days, the Greek church as 
 well as the Latin submitted willingly to the authority of St. Peter and 
 his successors the authority necessary to preserve order and peace 
 nd unity, &c. in the church of God on earth. 
 
 With regard to the controversy of the gentleman with Bishop Otey ; 
 there was a mooted point between Mr. Campbell and himself. I un- 
 derstood however that all the discussion was on Mr. Campbell's side. 
 
 (MR. CAMPBELL here explained that he had had a private discussion 
 with Bishop Otey, and had afterwards written him seven letters upon 
 the Episcopacy.) 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. I really do not know what Mr. Campbell's tenets 
 are, or what he believes. My brethren, I am fighting in the dark. I am 
 obliged to answer on the spot charges and objections against my re- 
 ligion which I cannot anticipate, while I really know not what my 
 antagonist's belief is, what qualifications, what marks of a divine call 
 to the ministry he considers necessary, if indeed he believes in any 
 peculiar separation of any man or set of men, for priestly functions. 
 
 Will my friend say definitely, before this assembly, if he believe in 
 the necessity of such call or mission. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. I do. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. How is that calling made known, that mission 
 given* 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. By the word and providence of God. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. How can we ascertain that word and providence 
 of God ! 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. By the voice of the people and the written word 
 "vox populi vox Dei." 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. Suppose the people are displeased, for instance, 
 with a Presbyterian pastor, have they the sole power to remove him 1 ? 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. Yes. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. Suppose the ministry of a Presbyterian ch'urch 
 are displeased with him, and the people of his church are pleased with 
 him. May he then retain his station against the will of the ministry? 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. If the people will have it so, it must be so. " Vex 
 populi, vox Dei"! 
 
 BISHOP rcRCELL. There my brethren, you have heard him! Stub 
 declarations !
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 4& 
 
 SATURDAY, JANUARY HTH., Half past 9 o'cfocA, A. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 I shall resume the subject where I closed yesterday evening, reserv- 
 ing my remarks on the last speech of my opponent till the conclusion 
 of my prespnt argument. 
 
 The gentleman read in the various reasons assigned for the bull of 
 Nicholas, against the patriarch of Constantinople and his brethren, 
 among others, the statement that the Greeks pretended to be the only 
 true, catholic and apostolic church. It woum not be difficult to prove 
 from history that in point of seniority, the Greek church has a superior 
 claim to the Roman. It is first in point of time, and claims a regular 
 descent from the apostles. There is one strong argument in her favor 
 which never has been met. To her belong the first seven councils. 
 They were held in Grecian cities, called by Grecian emperors, and 
 composed of Grecian bishops. They were wholly Grecian. The Ro- 
 man church has no right to claim them. And if the doctrines proclaim- 
 ed hy these councils be true, they are the doctrines of the Greek church 
 subsequently borrowed by the Romans. 
 
 As this is an important point, I will expatiate a little more fully up- 
 on it. I have taken the trouble to collect the following facts: at the 
 first council of Nice there were 318 bishops: of these 315 were Greek 
 and 3 Roman. This was the first general council, A. D. 325. At the 
 first council of Constantinople, (the second general council of the 
 church,) A. D. 381. there were 150 bishops ; of these 149 were Greeks, 
 and or.ly 1 was Roman. At the third council held at Ephesus, A. D. 
 431, there were but 68 bishops present. Of these 67 were Greek, and 
 one was Roman. At the fourth general council, which was the largest 
 and most authoritative of the first four, held at Chalcedon A. D. 451, 
 against Rutyches, there were present 353 bishops: 350 of whom were 
 Greeks, and only 3 Roman. At the second council of Constantinople 
 (\hejiflh general council) there were present 164 bishops: 156 of 
 whom were Greeks, and 6 Romans held against Origen and others, 
 A. D. 553. At the third council of Constantinople, (andthesi'a/A gen- 
 eral council,) there were 56 bishops present : 51 of whom were Greeks, 
 and 5 Romans. This council met against the Monothelites A. D 680. 
 At the second council of Nice, (the seventh general council,) there 
 were present 377 bishops; 370 of whom were Greeks, and 7 Romans. 
 Th?y met to restore images, A. D. 787. These were the first seven 
 general councils of the church. I have been at the pains to make this 
 collection of facts, to ascertain the merits of the controversy between 
 th-^ Greek and Roman sects, as respects the question to whom of 
 right belong the doctrines of the ancient councils. 1 find that the 
 whole number of bishops in these councils was 1486 : only 26 of 
 whom were Romans. Certainly the Greek church has the prior claim 
 on our attention, and ought to be revered for her antiquity and author- 
 ity, more than the schism which haughtily separated from her ! 
 
 But, in addition to these councils having been called not by the 
 authority of the chuich of Rome: but by eastern emperors, and conv 
 pospd of eastern bishops; every great question discussed in the first 
 four ; and, indeed, I may add, in the last three councils, was of Gre-
 
 46 
 
 cian origin. They grew up in the Greek school a school easily dis- 
 tinguished from the Latin, hy the peculiar subtilty of its definitions 
 a school long accustomed to nice distinctions, and whose reasoners 
 could split the thousandth part of an idea. Of this, their wars about 
 homousios and homoousios are ample proof. There are no questions 
 more purely abstract and metaphysical than many of those discussed 
 in these seven great ecumenical councils. 
 
 Again, these councils' were not only called by Greeks, composed of 
 Greeks, and occupied about Greek questions; but were all assembled 
 in Grecian cities. 
 
 If there be any virtue in councils to establish doctrines and the prior 
 ity of churches, the Greek church must be considered the mother of 
 the Roman, rather than her daughter. At all events, it is fully proved 
 that the Roman Catholic church is a sect or schism, which is the bur- 
 then of the proposition before us. To strengthen this conviction, I 
 proceed to comment on a standard definition of Catholicity. 
 
 I would now ask if there be any objection to th book which I hold in 
 my hand, as a good Roman Catholic authority. I believe it to be the 
 true standard of the Roman Catholic church. It is " the doctrine of 
 the council of Trent, as expressed in the creed of pnj?e Pius the IV." Bui 
 while the word "catholic "is in my eye, I am reminded that my 
 friend has asserted, ' that catholic is a scripture title of the church.' 1 
 reply that it is not so used in the New Testament; and that it is only 
 found as a general, running title to some epistles : that its antiquity ia 
 very doubtful, as it cannot be found in the body of the book ; and, con- 
 sequently, it has no authority. But now for the definition from the 
 approved standard of the church : 
 
 Sec/ion IV. Under the head, " That the church of Christ is CATHOLIC or 
 UM VERSA'.," il is asked, 
 
 What do ynu vnderstandby this ? 
 
 Answer. ' Not only that the church of Christ shah aiways be known hy the 
 name of Catholic, by which she is called in the creed; but" that she shall also 
 be truly Catholic or Universal by being the church of all ages and nations." 
 p. 15. 
 
 We have been showing that the church of Christ was not originally 
 known by the name catholic ; that the Roman sect was not the church 
 of the first six centuries ; and, therefore, that the approved definition 
 of the creed will not apply to this party. I have proved that she had 
 no pope, or supreme head, for full six hundred years, and in corrobora 
 tion of the argument, drawn from general councils, I have shown that 
 the first seven were not hers, but peculiarly those of the Greek church; 
 and that the Greek church is, in fact, the mother. 
 
 But there are yet other, and perhaps stronger arguments to show 
 her daughtership. Some of my audience can appreciate the following' 
 That the Hebrew is a more ancient language than the Greek, and the 
 Greek than the Roman, needs not be stated but for a few. One proof 
 of this fact is, that the Hebrew has given many words to the Greek, 
 while the Greek has given none to the Hebrew So the Greek has 
 given many words to the Latin, while the Latin has given none to the 
 Greek. Thus we prove the Roman church to have come out of the 
 bosom of the Greek, from the fact, that all the leading ecclesiastical 
 Jerms in the Roman church are Greek. For example: "pope," "patri~ 
 arch," "synod" "ecclesiastic," "schism," "schismatic," "heresy," "here- 
 tic," " hf^tsiarch" "catechumen" "hierarchy" "church" "chrism,"
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGI03S. 47 
 
 "exorcism," "akoluthi," "diocess," "presbytery," "trinity," "mystery," 
 "mystic," "catholic," "canon" &c., &c., &c. This as fully proves 
 the seniority of the Greek church, as it does that of the Greek lan- 
 guage over he Latin. 
 
 All ancient ecclesiastical historians, are also Greeks, such as Euse- 
 bius, Socrates Scholasticus, Evagrius Scholasticus, Sozomon, Theo- 
 doret. The most ancient and primitive fathers are also Greek. They 
 were models to the Latins and imitated in their writings. 
 
 To recapitulate, we have now shown that the Greek church is more 
 ancient than the Latin church ; because the first seven generajgpouncils 
 were all Greek, there being 1486 Grecian bishops and only 2o Roman 
 bishops present, they were called by Greek emperors, held in Greek 
 cities, and employed about Greek questions. 
 
 The leading ecclesiastic terms of all the ancient offices, customs 
 and controversies, are Greek : So are the early fathers and historians. 
 
 These considerations superadded to the facts and documents of yes- 
 terday, we think fully prove that the Roman church is not the church 
 of all ages and of all nations not the catholic and apostolic church, as 
 the creed of Trent defines ; but a sect, a branch or schism, from the 
 Hebrew and Greek churches of the New Testament. 
 
 In proving the proposition before us my plan is to select one of the 
 grand elements embraced in the standard definition of the church, and 
 to show that such being essential to the church, the church could not 
 exist without it. Now, I prefer the arithmetical mode of procedure in 
 this discussion. First lay down the rule and work a single question, 
 and then leave it to others to work as many as they please. 
 
 Thus I first laid down a definition of the Roman Catholic church 
 from her own standards. From that it appeared that a pope or univer- 
 sal bishop is an essential element of her existence. 1 then showed that 
 six hundred years had elapsed from the time of the apostles, before the 
 doctrine or existence of a universal bishop was thought of, and that the 
 office was not instituted till the year 606. But when I have proved 
 this, I have worked only one question. Any one may take up the doc- 
 trine of transubstantiation, the worship of images, purgatory, (a doc- 
 trine more ancient however, than either the Greek or Roman church,) 
 and every other peculiar doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, and 
 prove that not one of them is to be found in the divine book, nor in the 
 records of the church. 
 
 What, let me now ask, is the great point in my first proposition 1 
 To prove that the Roman Catholic church is not " the mother and mis* 
 tress" of all churches ; but a sect, in the full import of that word ; and 
 if that be not now proved, I know not what can be proved. I admit 
 the subject is capable of much more extensive developement ; but we 
 think it neither necessary nor expedient to be more diffuse. 
 
 Will the presiding moderator please read my first proposition ? 
 
 [Here proposition No. 1. was read by the moderator.] 
 
 I say then she is not the holy, apostolic, catholic church, as she pre- 
 tends to be ; for in proving her to be a sect, I prove her to be not cathif 
 lie, nor apostolic; because the true apostolic church cannot be called a 
 tect. To prove her to be a sect is to prove her not Catholic, therefore, 
 nor apostolic. What remains now ? Even on the concession of my 
 opponent, she is not the Catholic church ; for he admits, that the Greek 
 church differed from her only in a few non-essential matters. On that
 
 48 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 admission, if he admits that persons are saved in the Greek church ; 
 she must he a part of the church of Christ ; for with him, there is nc 
 salvation out of the church. 
 
 In the next place my proposition says ' she is not holy.' 1 I am im- 
 pelled by a sense of duty, and not by any unkind feelings towards such 
 of my fellow citizens as belong to that community, to attempt to prove 
 that the church of Rome is not holy. I would not heedlessly or need- 
 lessly offend against the feelings of an Indian, a Hindoo, or a Pagan, 
 in his sincere devotions, how absurd soever they might be. Much less 
 would I. wound any one that professes the Christian religion under any 
 form; but in serving my contemporaries, in redeeming my pledge, i 
 has become necessary to investigate the grand pretensions of this fra 
 ternity, that exclusively arrogates to itself the title of holy. 
 
 Not to expatiate at (his time on the vices of the clergy and of the popes 
 what the cardinals Barronius and Bellarmine have so fully noticed, and 
 sometimes specially detailed, I shall take a single text from Bellar- 
 mine, De. Eccl. lib. 3. c. 7. which avows a doctrine that must for 
 ever make the Roman church unholy. It is expressed in these 
 words : 
 
 " Wicked men, infidels and reprobates remaining- in the public profession of 
 the Romish church are true members of the body of Christ." 
 
 How then can we admit that she is holy ? Again : it must be ad- 
 mitted that the great mass of all those who die in the faith and profes- 
 sion of the Catholic doctrines are not strictly holy ; for why then should 
 they have to pass through the fires of purgatory ] 
 
 But again ; in her own Testament (if she have a Testament. The 
 orentleman may, indeed tell us his church has no English Testament ; 
 for she never owned but the Vulgate. She never gave to her people, 
 with approbation a French, or English, or any vernacular Testament 
 The Rhemish Testament is, however, published by the authority of a 
 portion of the church; and from it we can find the doctrine of Bell ar- 
 mine explicitly taught in the notes appended, by the same authority 
 which gave the Testament) in her own Testament, I repeat it, on John 
 iv. 1. these Roman annotators say : 
 
 " Every branch in me, &c." Christ hath some branches in his bod}- mystical 
 that be fruitless; therefore, ill livers also may he members of Christ's church. '" 
 
 "111 livers" (mark it) " may be members." This is repeatedly sta- 
 ted in various pNaces, and as T understand, avowed by all that commu 
 nity, as the true doctrine of the church. " 111 livers," wicked men, in- 
 fidels, reprobates, vicious characters, those guilty of crimes of every 
 enormity and color, may then continue members of the Roman church, 
 while they acknowledge the pope and the priesthood, and make profes 
 sion of faith in the Catholic church ; she therefore counts within hei 
 fold 150.000,000 of souls, as my opponent stated in this city in Octobei 
 last. All that happen to be born in Catholic countries, infidels, athe- 
 ists, and all, are enrolled in her communion. Her gates are wide as 
 the human race. It is all church and no world with her. The lusts of 
 the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, are found in her 
 communion. 
 
 The Roman Catholics in the United States are probably the best body 
 of Catholics in the world. I mean those who are native citizens. But 
 visit Old Spain or New Spain, Portugal, Italy, Austria, France, or Can- 
 ada, where Catholicism is the established religion ; and then ask whe- 
 ther holiness be a distinguishing attribute of the depraved and degraded
 
 HOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 49 
 
 millions who call themselves Roman Catholics! This with me is no 
 very pleasant theme, and I will not extend my remarks on this point by 
 unnecessary details. I have said enough to prove the allegata in my 
 first proposition, and to show that the church of Rome is a sect and not 
 the holy, apostolic church of Christ, as she proudly and exclusively 
 pretends. I am willing to submit these documents to the severest in- 
 vestigation ; and if other arguments and facts are called for, I will only 
 add, we have them at command. 
 
 My learned opponent seems to imagine that when I fix the birth day 
 of the Roman Catholic church, on the 16th day of July 1054, I must 
 admit that the church from which she separated was the true and uncor- 
 rupted church of Christ ; but this is what logicians call a nonsequitur. 
 It does not follow. The gentleman seems to reason as if it were inva- 
 riable that when one sect separates from another, the body from which 
 it separates, must necessarily be the true church. This is not logical. 
 A new sect may spring from the bosom of the worst sect on earth ; 
 but does this prove that the mother sect has piety, character, or author- 
 ity 1 Neither does it follow that in the year 1054 the Greek church, 
 though the mother or sisterof the Roman, was the true church of Christ. 
 When it becomes necessary, I may show that both the Greek and Ro- 
 man schisms had long before 1054, been separate from the apostolic 
 church. 
 
 Protestants have all conceded too much in every age and period of 
 this controversy. Even now there is a morbid sensibility upon this 
 subject among some, lest we should make Christ's church too indepen- 
 dent of the pope's church. ' In reproaching the mother church,' say 
 they, " you reproach us, also." 
 
 In one of the periodicals of this morning it was intimated that the 
 fates and fortunes of some Protestant party are involved in the pending 
 controversy. Be not afraid of the insinuations of such political alarm- 
 ists. I stand here as a Protestant, not as a Baptist, or Methodist, or 
 Episcopalian ; but to defend Protestantism. I am not afraid to meet 
 any antagonist on these premises. In advocating the great cardinal 
 principles of Protestantism, I feel that I stand upon a rock. There is 
 nothftigin hazard. I am sorry to see this sort of sensibility manifest- 
 ed. Can the truth suffer from discussion 1 
 
 In the mean time I will proceed to the second proposition, which will 
 much illustrate and confirm the argument already offered in proof of 
 the first. These great points so embrace one another, and are so in- 
 timately allied, that none of them can be fully demonstrated without re- 
 ference to the others. 
 
 "Paop. II. Her notion of Apostolic Succession is without any foundation in 
 the Bible, in reason, or in fact ; an imposition of the most injurious consequen- 
 ces, built upon unscriptural and anti-scriptural traditions, resting wholly upon 
 the (pinions of interested and fallible men." 
 
 Before I heard that the bishop intended to meet me in debate, I had 
 resolved to deliver a series of lectures, on the whole pretensions of the 
 Roman Church, in the following order: 1st her apostolicity, 2nd anti- 
 quity, 3rd infallibility, 4th supremacy, 5th catholicity, 6th unity, 
 and 7th sanctity. These seven great topics, I intended to- discuss at 
 full length. Each involving the others, none of them is so isolated as 
 tn be susceptible of an independent and separate developement. The 
 very term aposfolicity involves antiquity: hence, we find her pretending 
 F. 4
 
 50 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 to trace her descent, by regular steps, back to Peter, who, she asserts, 
 was the first bishop of Rome. 
 
 " Only those that can derive their lineage from the apostles are the heirs of the 
 apostles: and consequently they alone can claim a right to the scriptures, to the 
 administration of the sacraments, or any share in the pastoraf ministry. It ia 
 their proper inheritance which they have received from the apostles, and the 
 apostJes from Christ. 'As my father hath sent me, even so I send you.'" John 
 xx. 21. [Grounds of Cath. Doc. p. 17. 
 
 This is the doctrine of the creed of pope Pius IT. and a more glaring 
 assumption is not ea'sily imagined. This church, however, delights 
 in assumption. She assumes that Jesus Christ did establish a churdt 
 of all nations, to be ruled by a sort of generalissimo, or universal 
 head, who was to be his vicar on earth ; by virtue of whose ecclesi- 
 astical power she assumes for him political power ; for his logic is. 
 that Jesus Christ's vicar must represent his master in all things, in his 
 political as well as his ecclesiastical power. And as Christ himself 
 possesses all authority in heaven and on*earth, she assumes that the 
 pope his vicar ought to be the fountain of all power : that by him 
 kings should reign, and princes decree justice. After having thus as- 
 sumed, that Christ did establish such a kingdom and headship on earth, 
 that he did constitute the office of a vicar for himself and of a prince of 
 the apostles ; in the second place, she assumes that this headship was 
 given to Peter, that Christ gave the whole church and the apostles 
 themselves in charge to Peter ; that he gave him absolute control over 
 the bishops, pastors and laity ; and in the third place, to complete 
 the climax of assumptions, she assumes that Christ established a suc- 
 cessorship to Peter throughout all ages. On this triple assumption 
 rests the colossal empire of the papacy. 
 
 Now, as to the nature of the apostolical office be it observed with 
 brevity, that it was essentially incommunicable. Holy writ recogni- 
 zes but three orders cf apostles, and none of them had lineal succes- 
 sors. Jesus Christ, the apostle of God the Father, was the first. He 
 is called in the New Testament, " the Apostle and high priest of the 
 Christian profession." It is not necessary to prove that he could have 
 no successor. Second, the twelve apostles, who were apostles of 
 Christ, as he was the apostle of God. In John XVH. he says, "As my 
 Father made me his apostle, so I make you my apostles." These then 
 being personal attendants on the Messiah, could have no successors. 
 T.hird, Apostles sent out by particular churches, on special errands. 
 These are called in the New Testament 01 anrwrc,\H Ten jc*cw. These, 
 aJways sent on special errands, could have no successors. 
 
 If the qualifications of the apostolic office were understood, there 
 could be no controversy on the question of successors. As laid 
 down by Peter, Acts i. it behoved them to have been companions of 
 Christ from his baptism to his acsension, to be eye and ear witnesses 
 of all that he did and said. In this essential requisite they could have 
 no successors. Besides, if one should have a successor, why not all? 
 While the college of apostles was necessary, we see that succession 
 W 2S fiil]y carried out. Therefore, the chair of Judas the traitor deman- 
 ded a successor as well as that "of Peter. But yet we have not heard 
 of any controversy about the successor cf Judas! 
 
 Our first argument against the Catholic notion of succession is drawi> 
 from the nature of me apostolic office. 
 
 ,**-tt did we concede that the apostolic office was communicable, and
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 51 
 
 that Christ did appoint a president of the apostles, and place his chair 
 in Rome, there is no document on earth, from which we can learn with 
 any degree of certainty, that Peter was ever bishop in Rome. And yet 
 Catholics themselves, contend that it is essential to the cause of the 
 succession and supremacy that Peter placed his see at Rome by Christ's 
 commandment. 
 
 Bellarmine positively affirms ; 
 
 " The right of succession in the popes of Home isfounded in this, that Peter 
 by Christ s appointment, placed his seat at Rome, and there remained till hit 
 death." Lib. TI. c. 1. 
 
 This resolves the controversy into a single question of fact, viz. 
 Did Peter, by Christ's appointment, place his seat at Home and there re- 
 main It'll death? Barronius, however says; 
 
 " It is not improbable that our Lord gave an express command that Peter 
 shoulil so fix his see at Rome, that the bishop of Rome should absolutely sue 
 ceed him. [Id. Ib. 
 
 Only probable ! But there is no such succession in fact. In the 
 first place, there is no proof from scripture that Peter ever was at Rome, 
 much less, bishop of Rome ; and secondly, if he were an apostle, he 
 could not be the bishop of any church. A king, a justice of the peace, 
 the bishop of London, the vicar of Bray ! It is, on these premises, 
 impossible to prove this most fundamental question. 
 
 Various efforts have been made by the bishop of Cincinnati to ex- 
 cite Episcopalians and others on this question, as if they were likely 
 to be involved in the same common ruin with my opponent's preten- 
 sions. There is no need for any alarm on this account. The office of 
 pope and his succession, certainly, are not identical with that of 
 Episcopalian bishops in England or America ! 
 
 There is no body cf men who have done more to elevate English 
 aterature and science, than the English clergy, none whose writings 
 I have read with more pleasure than theirs, on all subjects pertaining 
 to general literature, morality and religion. In some of them, indeed, 
 we find weak as well as strong places, and a too great timidity in 
 contending against the Romanists, lest they should endanger their right 
 of Episcopacy. I incline to the opinion, that the pretensions of the 
 church of Rome may be fully canvassed without at all jeopardizing 
 the simple question of the divine right of Episcopacy. But if we at- 
 tempt to bring a clean thing out of an unclean ; or expect to find a di- 
 vine warrant in the commission given to the apostles ; or in the Ro- 
 man Catholic traditions ; we shall never find it to the day of eternity. 
 
 Successors must be successors in full, or they are not successors at 
 all. To illustrate this does not the existing president of the United 
 States inherit all the power and authority of George Washington, by 
 virtue of constitutional succession 1 Does he not possess the same 
 power, in all. its length and breadth, its height and depth, as dii his 
 predecessor, from the first to the last 1 This is true of every constitu- 
 tional office in the civilized world. All the power which any prede- 
 cessor can have, belongs to every incumbent : So in the church ' it 
 have constitution at all. 
 
 If the apostles have successors, they have successors in full. But 
 the Roman Catholics themselves give up the controversy, by admitting 
 that none of the bishops or popes inherit the power and functions be- 
 stowed upon the apostles by the commission. 
 
 I do not, indeed, found my argument for the divine right of bishopa
 
 &2 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 or elders, and deacons, on the commission, which Jesus Christ gives 
 to his apostles; and 1 am prepared for all the consequences of this ad- 
 mission. For by every rule of interpretation, I must apply every word 
 of the commission to the apostles ; because it addresses them only. 
 But let none he alarmed at this declaration : nothing is jeopardized 
 rather, indeed, all is secured by it. 
 
 In the presence of the apostles alone, he pronounced these words ; 
 " All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me ; go you .there- 
 fore and convert all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the 
 Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all 
 the things which I have commanded you ; and lo, / am with you al- 
 ways, even to the conclusion of this state," or to the end of the age or 
 world. 
 
 This commission created plenipotentiaries : it reared up ambassa- 
 dors, and gave to the apostles the same power of erecting the church, 
 which God gave to Moses for raising the tabernacle in the wilderness. 
 They had all the authority of Christ to set up what orde.rs they pleas- 
 ed. They created both bishops and deacons ; and as they had a di- 
 vine right to do so, so those created by them have a divine right to 
 officiate in the duties of those offices. A true interpretation of the 
 promise, "lam with you," will go far to confirm the declaration, that 
 they neither had, nor could have successors in office. Of this, how- 
 ever, again 
 
 Meanwhile, it may be objected that Paul was an apostle, and ac- 
 ted without this commission. He had, indeed, a special commission, 
 and the qualifications of an apostle. He had seen and heard the Lord. 
 For to this end the Lord appeared to him. But as respected time, he 
 acknowledged he was born rather two late to be an apostle he was 
 " born out of due time" How, then, could any of them have succes- 
 sors at this day ! 
 
 The gentleman mentioned some two persons in the Old Testament. 
 They could have no successors in office, according to the argument on 
 hand. It was absolutely impossible that Moses could have a succes- 
 sor. His office and commission were really from God, and strictly 
 peculiar to himself. He brought the Jews out of Egypt, and erected 
 the tabernacle ; this was his peculiar office, which, in its very nature, 
 expired when once its duties were fulfilled. The commission of Joshua, 
 in iTfce manner, was also peculiar to himself, and could not possibly de- 
 scend to a successor. When he led Israel across the Jordan, and di- 
 vided the land by lot amongst them, his works and office naturally ex- 
 pired. So when the apostles preached the gospel, revealed the whole 
 will of Jesus Christ, and erected his church and all its proper officers 
 and duties, their work was done, and they, like Moses and Joshua, be- 
 ing officers extraordinary, could have no successors.-[Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 10 o block A. M. 
 BISHOP PURCEI.T. rises. 
 
 Here is, beloved friends, as plain and logical a case for argumenta- 
 tion, and as fair an opportunity afforded for refutation, as ever the 
 annals of controversy exhibited. The. first argument of my friend 
 amounts to this, viz: That for reasons he has given, the Greek church 
 has superior claims upon our attention to the Roman. 
 
 I have quoted councils, general and particular laws, usages, appeals
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 53 
 
 the authority of Greek and Latin fathers, that is to say, the most au- 
 thentic testimony of the first figes, to show that with Rome was the 
 primacy of all the churches. This, at once, upsets all that he has said. 
 
 He says the first seven councils were Greek; and that therefore the 
 Greek church had the preeminence. But, I ask, who convoked those 
 councils 1 Who approved them ? Who sanctioned their canons, and 
 gave throughout the entire church the force of law to their decisions I 
 Who guarded them against errors, and set them right when they were 
 going, or had gone astray? It was the pope. I 'have already said, 
 that Sylvester, hishop of Rome, aware of the danger that menaced the 
 faith in the east, convoked the great council of Nice that the 
 emperor Constantine, the ruler of the east and west, of Rome and 
 of Constantinople, the man, consequently, upon whom as chief magis- 
 trate of the Roman empire it devolved, afforded the necessary facilities 
 to the various bishops to come to the council. Again, who presided 
 as legate of the pope ? Osius of Cordova, in Spain, a western man, 
 assisted, as is and has been customary, by two inferior ecclesiastics. 
 
 The jealous Greeks beheld all this, and surely they would not have 
 permitted Rome thus to assume the supremacy, if her right to it had 
 not been universally admitted since the days of her founder St. Peter. 
 Is it not the most splendid proof of the correctness of my argument 1 ? 
 The strongest evidence that could be desired of the discomfiture of 
 my adversary? 
 
 I thought to have seen a more powerful display of logic from the 
 strong and disciplined mind of my friend Mr. C.; but 1 attributed the 
 poverty of his argument to indisposition on his part, or to the weak- 
 ness of his cause. 
 
 Well, another reason is stated, to prove the supremacy of the Greek 
 church, viz. : that the questions discussed in these councils were of 
 Greek origin. Is it then to be wondered at, that as almost every error 
 in the old church originated in the East, it shpuld be there corrected * 
 that the remedy should be applied where the disease existed? 
 
 The Greeks were at all times a curious, inquisitive, restless people. 
 The passion for disputation displayed in the schools of the philosophers 
 was, as by contagion, communicated to many of the professors of 
 Christianity. But the manner in which it operated upon the one and 
 the other was essentially different. With the philosopher such ques- 
 tions were objects of understanding only, subjects of speculation ; 
 whereon the ingenuity of a minute mind might employ or waste itself. 
 But with the Christian they were matters of truth and falsehood, of 
 belief or disbelief, and he felt assured that his eternal interests would 
 be influenced if not decided by his choice. As soon as the copious 
 language of Greece was vaguely applied to the definition of spiritual 
 things, and the explanation of heavenly mysteries, the field of conten- 
 tion seemed to be removed from earth to air, where the foot found 
 nothing stable (nothing like the rock of Rome new and striking 
 proof of its necessity) to rest upon ; where arguments were easily 
 eluded, and where the space, in which to fly and rally, was infinite. 
 Add to this the nature and genius of the disputants ; for the origin >/ 
 these disputes may be traced without any exception to the rest/ess inia.sinn- 
 tions of the East. The violent temperament of the orientals, as it \vvs 
 highly adapted to the reception of religious impressions, and admitted 
 them with fervor and earnestness, intermingled, so closely, passion 
 r '3
 
 54 DEB ATI: o\ THE 
 
 with piety, as scarcely to conceive them separable. The natural ardor 
 of their feelings was not abated by the natural subtilty of their under- 
 standing, which was sharpened in the schools of Egypt; and when 
 this latter began to be occupied by inquiries in which the former were 
 so deeply engaged, it was to be expected that many extravagances 
 would follow. Vid. Waddington, p. 92. 
 
 Yet, because it was in the east that the heresies in the ancient day 
 of the church commenced, and in the east the councils met to correct 
 those heresies, the Greek church must therefore have heen the mother 
 church! Such is my friend's argument! and it is now plain, that a 
 feebler, a more inconclusive, and a more irrational one, he could scarce- 
 ly have advanced before this enlightened assembly. But what is still 
 more remarkable, did not these very councils, these Greek councils, 
 establish by their own acts, and these of the most solemn and authentic 
 character, the supremacy of the Roman seel Did they not solicit the 
 pope's approbation of their decrees, and acknowledge that without his 
 sanction their proceedings were void of effect 1 ? 
 
 He says that the emperor presided. I have already answered that 
 tfie emperor did not preside. He distinctly acknowledged the spiritual 
 to be independent of the temporal power, he alleged that he pretended 
 to no right to preside. He knew that God never told the emperors, 
 his predecessors, to preside over the deliberations _of his church. The 
 constitution of that church had been established three hundred years 
 before Constantine became a proselyte to Christianity. It is unheard 
 of that a temporal monarch ever presided over the deliberations of the 
 church, or ruled in ecclesiastical matters. At least we catholics submit 
 to no such dictation such a confusion of things divine and human 
 such an anomaly ! I am sorry it is allowed in England. In that coun- 
 try even a woman may be, for a woman has been, the head of the 
 church, as in the instance of queen Elizabeth; nay, a little child, as 
 in the case of Edward. It is contrary to reason, to scripture, to human 
 rights and divine ordinances, that such as these should presume in any 
 situations, to give or withhold authority to the ministry, to preach th 
 gospel of Christ, or to dispense the mysteries of God. It outrage* 
 every feeling of sanctity, it degrades, it vilifies the priesthood, to see 
 bishops and archbishops kneeling at the feet of women and boys, and 
 praying them to grant a license to preach. 
 
 My friend has charged me with making professions of respect for 
 Episcopalians and Episcopal methodists, &c., but do I suppress the 
 truth, and do I fail to censure them where they too are wrong. My 
 friend has gratuitously presented himself before this assembly as the 
 champion of Protestantism; and I have shown that he is, if at all, but 
 little less opposed than I am to the denominations I have named, on 
 the vital point of orders and a called and sent ministry. He would 
 amuse them with an equivocal defence of their principles to-day, and 
 then present them with his own views in theology with Campbell- 
 ism, baptized Protestantism, [Here the moderators called Bishop 
 Purcell to order.] 
 
 My friend, learnedly, (and I give him credit for it.) showed how it 
 came that there were so many errors and questionable doctrines in the 
 Greek church. I hav(; stated the causes, humanly speaking, of tin 
 errors. It is then, an undisputed tact, t,hat they were more numerous 
 in the Grt-ek than in the Roman church ; that tha SoTian church was
 
 VOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 55 
 
 omparatively free from them. But he has plaimy misconceived the 
 inference to be drawn from the fact; and it is this: that as Rome 
 was the primary see, the centre of unity, the mother and mistress of 
 all the churches, God watched over her with peculiar care, and pre- 
 served her from the errors and heresies that proved infinitely more 
 fatal than the pagan persecutions, to the churches of the east. While 
 they weie distracted, the Roman church was united in faith; while 
 they were in danger of breaking to pieces the edifice of faith, she was 
 consolidated, herself, and laboring to consolidate them under one creed. 
 If any thing did prolong the gospel life in the cast, it was the authority 
 of Rome. By her was the doctrine of the Savior vindicated, and 
 kept pure from the foul admixture, the contamination of heresy. By 
 her were Arianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Monotholism, and a 
 hundred other novelties, the spurious progeny of dangerous opinions 
 in the east, successively condemned. 
 
 And now, having disposed of the argument which appears in the 
 van of the gentleman's remarks, I will go on with a question of fact, 
 to which he ha? again referred, touching the word Catholic. He says 
 that it is not found in the New Testament. Admitting that it is not in 
 the body of the eanon^ which I did cot contend for, yet it is prefixed 
 to some of the epistles, and as old, if not older, as a word belonging 
 to the household of faith, than they are. He said the word K.*AOMX.>, 
 (rff//W/A-) was prefixed to the Epistle of James in the year 1549, by 
 Robert Stephens, or Robert Etienne, by which name that famous 
 French printer is better known about 300 years ago. Yes, and I 
 will show you that here again his learning is at fault, that to the 300 
 years must be added a thousand more, and then that the origin of the 
 word is coeval with Christianity. Before quoting the testimony of St. 
 Gregory Nazianxen, a writer of the 4th century, I will observe, that seven 
 of the epistles found in the Catholic or Protestant Testaments, are call- 
 ed catholic, or canonical, as not having been addressed to any particu- 
 lar church, or person, if we except the 2d and 3d of St. John, but to all 
 the churches. Five of these epistles, viz. that of St. James, the 2d of 
 St. Peter, the 2d and 3d of St. John, the epistle of St. Jude, as also the 
 epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews, and the Apocalypse, or book of 
 Revelation of St. John, were doubted of, and not always and evefy 
 where received -in the three first ages, till the canon and catalogue of 
 the books of scripture were determined by the authority of the Catho- 
 lic church, the supreme judge of all controversies in matters of faith, 
 and religion, according to die appointment -of our Savior, Christ, ex- 
 pressed in many places in the holy scriptures. These I have men- 
 tioned were certainly, for some time, doubted of; they are still doubt- 
 ed of by some of the late reformers. Luther, the great doctor of the 
 reformation, is Rot ashamed to say, that this epistle of St. James, is no 
 heller than straw, and unworthy an apostle. Speaking of these epis- 
 tles, then, Gregory Nazianzen, at that earlyperiod, uses the word Cath- 
 olic, and designates them by that name : 
 
 " T/vec pvi MA qxru, 01 Jt T 
 
 " Xjjw*/ ftpartixj TXV ]jta',5s (fUBtt 
 
 << Mm ft n*rg*, Tvlt laavM* f*.i*.v. n 
 
 (;. *\u:ianz<:n, Curmtn de Canon. Script. 
 
 Ir. English "Some say there are seven Catholic epistles, othejs
 
 56 DEBATE 03f THE 
 
 that there are only three one of James, one of Peter, and one of John *' 
 So much for the fourth age. Does not .ay friend say his prayers 1 
 Does not every Protestant unite A'.in every Catholic in saying, "I 
 believe in the holy Catholic church," as we are taught in the apostles' 
 creed 1 Speaking of this most ancient formula of faith, com >osed, as 
 it is believed, by the apostles themselves, before they separated for 
 the great work of preaching to all nations, that it may be for ever a 
 bond of union and an abridgment of sound apostolic belief, Wddding- 
 ton says, p. 46. "The creed which was first adopted, and that perhaps 
 in the very earliest age, by the church of Rome, was that which is now 
 called the apostles' creed ; and it was the general opirion from the 
 fourth century downwards, that it was actually the production of (host 
 blessed persons assembled for that purpose; our evidence is not sufficient 
 to establish that fact, and some writers very confidently reject it. 
 But there is reasonable ground for our assurance that the form of faith, 
 which we still repeat and inculcate, was in use and power in the very 
 early propagation of our religion."* Now will the gentleman telJ 
 us that the word Catholic was unknown to antiquity ] 
 
 You will perceive, my friends, that until the very minute Mr. Camp- 
 bell speaks, I know not what he is going to say. You will not won- 
 der that following him, my discourse should be desultory and rambling, 
 lam here under every disadvantage to which- a speaker can be subject. 
 Obliged to leave the beaten highway and follow him through the 
 thickets into which, he finds it useful to plunge so frequently. 
 
 I have at this moment in my hand, a copy of the New Testament, a 
 beautiful edition, published in Glasgow, a Presbyterian city, and also 
 an edition of Robert Etienne. Behold (displaying them) the title 
 " Catholic," prefixed in both, to these epistles. 
 
 I have now established the fact that Catholic was the ancient name 
 of the church that no other than the Roman Catholic was entitled to 
 that name that the Roman Catholic church is the Catholic church 
 of all ages, that in all ages it has had a head. For we may call the 
 pope by any name we please, the name is nothing. It is the station, 
 and the incumbent thereof, that it is important to ascertain, and the 
 nponday is not clearer than that both existed from the very origin of the 
 cnristian religion in Rome. 
 
 He argues against the supremacy of Rome from the circumstance 
 that all the ecclesiastical words are Greek. 
 
 This is not at all surprising. There was not a particle of the Scrip- 
 tures originally written in Latin. Surely my friend must be hard pres- 
 sed for want of argument, when he grasps at such a floating, improba- 
 ble, airy one as that! Words are but the signs of ideas. But he af- 
 firms that all the epistles are written to Greek cities. Was then none 
 of these epistles written to Rome ! And was Rome a Greek city ? 
 Does not Paul surpass himself does he not reason most deeply 
 in that epistle ? Does he not style the Romans the " Called of Jesus 
 Christ; the beloved of God ?" Does he not say, 1st ch. v. 3, "I give 
 thanks to my God, through Jesus Christ, for you all, because your 
 faith is spoken of in the whole world" ] Is it not in that epistle that 
 
 A note to Wadding-ton on this subject, contains th? folio.'. : "Ig- 
 
 natius, Justin, and Irenaeus, make no mention of it, but thej occasionally repeal 
 5iue words, contained in it, which is held as a proof th&t they knew it by heart."
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 5? 
 
 he confounds tlie Jews, by proving that the ceremonial works of the 
 law avail them nothing towards salvation, and the Gentiles by shew- 
 ing that their shameful excesses, notwithstanding the boasted lights 
 of philosophy, involved them equally with the rejected Jews in the 
 divine malediction 1 Does he not devote eleven chapters of this epis- 
 tle tr> establish solidly the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith? 
 
 Finally T was not the church of Rome at least as ancient as the church 
 of Corinth ? 
 
 My friend spoke of transubstantiation, and purgatory. These wil 
 come in their proper place in the debate. 
 
 The conclusion of all his arguments is, that the Roman Catholic 
 church is a sect. This, I may venture to say, he has failed to prove. 
 Indeed he has done any thing but prove it; for he has in fact strengthen- 
 ed my grounds of defence, for the more he has questioned my authori- 
 ties and arguments, the more signally have I established them. 
 
 My friend is correct in saying that to prove the church not Catholic, 
 is to prove her neither holy nor apostolic. Had he acted on this hint, 
 and compressed his first three propositions into one, and condensation 
 is all important in discussion, he would have greatly abridged his own 
 labor, and saved this audience and myself much loss of time. I have 
 proved that the Roman Catholic church is NOW the only church 
 that is, as a church, (and not as a band of sailors or travellers without any 
 fixed habitation,) spread over the entire world ; that she only has been 
 so from the beginning, to the exclusion of every sect : that she alone 
 now bears, that she alone has ever borne the name of Catholic; that 
 no other denomination, no sect now has or ever had a right to it and 
 that, as she is Catholic, she is also holy, she is apostolic, she is 
 divine, and consequently the only true church of Christ. By the 
 same strictness of investigation and of reasoning, by the same 
 eplendid evidence of fads, I will prove that she alone is united in 
 faith and government as the true church should be ; for Christ 
 prayed for his disciples the night before he suffered, " that they 
 may be ONE, as thou Father in Heaven and I are one." Now in what 
 church shall we seek for this unity 1 We shall see that, later in the de- 
 bate, for notwithstanding the admission of my friend, we must plod our 
 weary ro jnd, debating these propositions as he has penned them. But 
 the gentleman says, " the Roman Catholic church assumes every thing." 
 No, my brethren, it is not so. When she can so validly establish her 
 claim, she does not, she has no occasion to assume any thing. She 
 proves all things, and holds fast to them because they are good. In 
 the first place we prove from scripture that Christ did establish an 
 earthly head to his church, and that that head was the apostle Peter 
 If not, why did he say to Peter, " Tfiou art Peter, (a rock) and upon 
 this rock ivill I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail 
 against it"? Again, he did give him a preeminence over the other 
 apostles. If not, why did he say to him, Luke, xxii. 32, " Simon, 
 Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you (in the plural, that is. all 
 the apostles) that he may sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for thee 
 that thy faith fail not, and thou being converted, confirm thy brethren" >' 
 He told Peter that he would deny him that he would fall but he at 
 the same time cheered him by the divine assurance that his fall should 
 not be for ever, that he would arise from it, and that after his transitory 
 humiliation, no longe* presumptuously confiding in his own sttength,
 
 58 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 but placing all his trust in God, he should not only securely stand him- 
 self before both Jews and Gentiles, but likewise strengthen and sup- 
 port his brethren. For this Christ prayed for Peter, and the Father 
 who also loves the church, heard and he will ever hear that prayer. 
 The faith of Peter hath never failed. When did he ever say this to 
 the other apostles ? Peter is named first, when the apostles are enu- 
 merated ; he speaks first in the meeting of the apostles and brethren, 
 and gives instructions to proceed to the choosing an apostle in the place 
 of the Iscariot. He is the first to reproach the Jews with deicide, and at 
 his preaching eight thousand are converted. He is sent by an angel 
 from heaven, to the gentile Cornelius ; is released from prison by an 
 angel ; confirms the Samaritans with St. John : healeth JEneas at Lyd- 
 da : raiseth Tabitha from death at Joppa ; founds the first see among 
 the gentiles at Antioch. He speaks first in the council at Jerusalem, 
 "men, brethren, &c." Acts, xv. "and all the multitude among whom 
 there had been previously, much disputing, held their peace." " Then 
 after three years" says St. Paul, Gal. i. 13. "I went to Jerusalem to 
 see Petei, and I tarried with him fifteen days." And ch. 2. v. 1. " Then 
 after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem, and I went up ac- 
 cording to revelation, and conferred with them the gospel which I preach 
 ^mong the gentiles, lest perhaps I should run, or had run in vain." 
 
 My friend says that this assumption is followed by injurious effects, 
 ?.igious and political, inconsequence of the power wielded by a single 
 .ndividual. This directly impeaches the foreknowledge and sanctity 
 of Christ. He established the power, and from its exercise within the 
 just limits, which he has prescribed, I maintain that no consequences 
 injurious either to religious or civil society can ever ensue. History 
 attests, and I have quoted some striking instances from the records of 
 the Greek church, that the power of the popes was CONSERVATIVE. Their 
 influence has ever been most favorable to the best interests of society 
 as well as of religion. They were the friends of peace, the patrons 
 of learning, the umpires of angry princes and hostile nations on the 
 one hand, while on the other they preserved pure and uncontaminated, 
 the holy deposit of the truth and proscribed error. Confined to its pro- 
 per sphere, the influence of the head of the church must needs be salu- 
 tary .; must, if God was wise, be beneficial and far above reproach. 
 This power has been exerted for the welfare of society under every form 
 of government, monarchical, aristocratical, mixed, and republican. It 
 is the friend of all. It is irreconcileable with none, but of the tempo- 
 ral influence of the popes it will be time enough to speak in its proper 
 place. I will now proceed to show that the want of an ecclesiastical 
 superior, whom all are bound to obey, lets in a deluge of evils, and 
 these irremediable, on every religious body that wants a head. Reason, 
 alone should attest this truth, without further illustration. The sheep- 
 fold over which there has been placed no shepherd, will soon be the 
 prey of the wolf. The school in which no teacher presides, the soci- 
 ety which recognises no chief magistrate, will not fail to exhibit a 
 scene of confusion, and must finally be dissolved. Let us appeal to 
 experience. What has multiplied the (so called) Christian sects to 
 such an excess that neither the evil nor the remedy can be any longer 
 endured in Protestant communions'? It is the principle contended for 
 by my opponent. It is this, as bishop Smith justly observes, more 
 prolific than the knife that divides the polypus, that daily multiplies
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 59 
 
 Jivisions and produces new sects in christiaHity. Hear a late numbei 
 of the Baptist Banner, speaking of this controversy. It says : 
 
 " !>ut to IK MTIOIIS, we cannot hi IK vf.- that any good will follow this debate 
 But too much excitement is attempted to be gotten up against the Roman Ca- 
 tholics an excitement bordering o:> intolerance. Could we feel assured, either 
 from his course iu this instance or from a retrospect of his past life, that Mi-. 
 Campbell sought this discussion soiely to vindicate truth and expose error, and 
 not ostentatiously to exhibit his tact in debate and to reap a pecuniary harvest 
 by a new publication, we might feel less distrust of consequences, and should 
 have some faint hope that probably good would ensue; but credulous, nay, stu- 
 pid must be the man, who in looking over the circumstances which have con- 
 lurred in originating this debate, can suppose that any religious or commendable 
 niDtive prompted him to throw the gauntlet and provoke the controversy. In 
 looking over his past career, a love of truth and a desire to promote the pea<'e 
 *uid prosperitr of Zion, have not been the prominent traits which have marked 
 his character and rendered conspicuous his course. [Bishop P. was here called 
 to order; Mr. Campbell also here observed, that as he had read the worst p:.rt 
 of the article he might read the balance; and the point of order being examin- 
 ed, the board decided that he was in order.] We do not speak for othri 
 places, but in Kentucky he has caused more serious injury to the cause of reli 
 e;ion. more disturbance, more wrangling, collision, and division in societv, in a 
 few years, than in our humble judgment, the Catholics can ever do. Bat we 
 forbear. The debate will take place. The Campbellites will sip delicious wis- 
 dom from the lips of their leader. A new impulse will be given to their now 
 drooping state. They wilt again wage his high claims to competency to reform 
 religion and introduce the Millennium. And Mr. Campbell will have the prottd 
 tatisfaction of rendering great good to himself by the sale of another book! 
 This will be about all that will result from this discussion." 
 
 I knew not iiatil yesterday that the Baptists were opposed to Mr. 
 Campbell ; but as necessarily as the stream flows from its source, 
 do these disastrous effects which the Baptist Banner deprecates, flow 
 from the system which acknowledges no head in religious matters, 
 but allows every individual, qualified or disqualified, to give his own 
 crude fancies for the revelation of heaven. 
 
 The Zion's 'Advocate of the 28th ult. and the Palladium of the 7th 
 inst. give similar testimony against the radicalism of my friend. But 
 I spare him the reading. You can now judge of the tree by its fruits ; 
 his are bitterness and confusion, those of the Catholics, admitting a 
 supremacy in the church, are order, unity and peace. His rule neces- 
 sarily creates enmities and endless altercations in the church; the Ca- 
 tholic rule cuts them up by the very roots, and not only arrests their 
 growth, but renders their very existence impossible. 
 
 Mr. Campbell said that the Roman Catholic church was an apos- 
 taey from the true Church, and that this event, so important in the an- 
 nals of the world, took place precisely on the 16th of July 1054, when 
 she separated from the Greek church. It is a pity, as he intended to 
 be so particular, that he did not tell us whether it was old style or ncn". 
 
 But perceiving the terrible effect of this admission, upon his arp-u- 
 ment, he retraces his steps, and taking us all aback, he says that the 
 Greek church was not after all the true church of Christ, and thus lie 
 has left us as much in the dark as ever. Remember I told him how 
 much it had puzzled the world and would puzzle him to settle that 
 point. I ask him again then, if the Roman Catholic church apostatiz- 
 ed from the church of Christ at the period in question, and the Greek 
 church, from which she separated, was as corrupt as herself, whore 
 was. at that time, the true church 1 God's covenant with her, Ezech. 
 xxxvii. r>-2, \v;is an everlasting covenant of peace, a covenant, like thai 
 of day and night, to last for all generations. .Tre. xxxiii. 20, 21, al-
 
 60 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ways visible, Is. n. 2. 3.<Michers iv. 1. 2. spread far and near, and 
 teaching many nations, Ps. xi. 8. Dan. xi. 35. 11. M;:hicli. i. 11. 
 The pillar and the ground of truth, unfailing; the gates of hell v.vre 
 .iever to prevail against her. If all these glorious prophecies were not 
 fulfilled in the Roman Catholic church, in what other church we;e they 
 fulfilled ? When will my friend answer me! 
 
 Mr. C. observes that the Roman Catholic church or the see of Peter, 
 assumes to be the representative of Christ in all his power, ecclesiasti- 
 cal and political, and that as Christ was supreme head over all the 
 earth, temporal and spiritual, so was Peter, and so are his successors. 
 
 I have already shewn that this is no part or parcel of the Catholic 
 doctrine. The pope's power is spiritual, his kingdom like that of 
 Christ, is not of this world. He has not a solitary inch of ground 
 over which to exercise temporal authority in any territory on earth, be- 
 yond the narrow limits of the papal states; and the authority with 
 which he is there invested rather originated in the people's preference 
 of the bishop's crosier to the kingly sceptre, than in any views he could 
 himself, have cherished of worldly aggrandizement. Hear Gibbon, in. 
 vol. p. 230., Phil. 1830. "The want of laws could only be supplied 
 by the influence of religion, and their foreign and domestic counsels 
 were moderated by the authority of the bishop. His alms, his ser- 
 mons, his correspondence wilh the king and prelates of the west, his 
 recent services, their gratitude, an oath, accustomed the Romans to 
 consider him as the first magistrate. The Christian humility of the 
 popes was not offended by the name of dominus or lord, and their face 
 and inscription is still apparent on the most ancient coins. Their tem- 
 poral dominion is now confirmed by the reverence of a thousand years ; 
 and their noblest title is the free choice of a people, whom they had 
 redeemed from slavery." 
 
 I had a great deal of other ground to go over on this point, but my 
 time is limited ; and I will now proceed to review one of the most 
 dreadful charges ever made against a pope of Rome, and to show that 
 it is totally without foundation. 
 
 If I understood Mr. C. aright, he asserted, that it was the pope Grf- 
 gory consecrated Phocas the centurion king, in the church of St. John 
 the Baptist in Constantinople, and that he did so, contrary to every law 
 of God, or man, for the base, the iniquitous purchase of the title of pope. 
 
 (Mr. Campbell reasserted the charge.) 
 
 Now I aver that the charge is unfounded and false. I mean no dis- 
 respect to Mr. C. He would not intentionally deceive this assembly 
 or wilfully sustain by calumny an otherwise hopeless cause. But 
 leaving motives to their proper judge, I shall now prove to this audi 
 ence that he has stated what is not true, and alleged odious charges 
 against the pope which he cannot substantiate. On his own reputa 
 tion for accuracy and his knowledge of history let the penalty for eve 
 rest, of having been this day detected before so many of his fellow 
 citizens, egregiously at fault in both. Hormisdas king of Persia, indig 
 nant at the defeat of his general Varamus (see Natalis Alex. ssec. sext 
 Art. v. p. 226,) sends him a petticoat in derision. The war is renew 
 ed ; Mauritius loses 12000 troops, taken prisoners by the Chagan ; bo 
 refuses to release them by paying the humble pittance set as a price on 
 the head of each by the victor ; they are butchered in cold blood ; hix 
 people, shocked at his avarice and cruelty revolt Mauritius abdicates
 
 ROMA^V CATHOLIC RELIGION. (51 
 
 the people choose the centurion, Phocas, to reign over them in his 
 stead ; the patriarch of Constantinople consecrates Phocas king, in the 
 church of .St. John the Baptist, in C. P. The entire story is thus re- 
 lated by Gibbon. 
 
 "The troops of Maurice might listen to the voice of a victorious leader, they 
 disdained the admonitions of statesmen and sophists, and when they received an 
 edict which deducted from their pay the price of their arms and clothing, they 
 execrated the avarice of a prince insensible of the dangers and fatigues from which 
 he had escaped: and every age must condemn the inhumanity or avarice of a 
 prince, who by the trifiing ransom of six thousand pieces of gold, mighthave pre- 
 vented the massacre of 12,000 prisoners in the hands of the Chagan. In the first 
 fervor of indignation, an order was signified to the army of the Danube, that 
 they should spare the magazines of the province, and establish their winter-quar- 
 ters ir the hostile country of the Avars. The measure of their grievances was 
 full they pronounced Maurice unworthy to reign, expelled or slaughtered his 
 faithful adherents, and, under t'ie command of Phocas, a simple centurion, return- 
 ed by hasty marches to the neighborhood of Constantinople. 
 
 "The rigid and parsimonious virtues of Maurice had long since alienated the 
 hearts of his subjects; and a vile plebeian, who represented liis countenance and 
 apparel, was seated on an ass, and pursued by the imprecations of the multitude.* 
 Th,e emperor suspected the popularity of Germanus with the soldiers and citi- 
 zens; he feared, he threatened, but he delayed to strike; the patrician fled to 
 the sanctuary of the church; the people rose in his defence, the walls were de 
 serted by the guards, and the lawless city was abandoned to the flames and ra 
 pine of nocturnal tumult. In a small bark the unfortunate Maurice, with his wife 
 and nine children, escaped to the Asiatic shore; but the violence of the wind 
 compelled him to land at the church of St. Antoninus, near Chalcedon, from 
 whence he despatched Theodosius, his eldest son, to implore the gratitude and 
 friendship of the Persian monarch. For himself, he refused to fly. His body 
 was tortured with sciatic pains, his mind was enfeebled by superstition; he pa- 
 tiently awaited the event of the revolution, and addressed a tervent and public 
 prayer to the Almighty, that the punishment of his sins might be inflicted in this 
 world, rather than in a future life. After the abdication of Maurice, the two 
 factions disputed the choice of an emperor; but the favorite of the blues, was re- 
 jected by the jealousy of their antagonists, and Germanus .himself was hurried 
 along by the crowds, who rushed to the palace of Hebdomen, seven miles from 
 the city, to adore the majesty of Phocas, the centurion. A modest wish of re- 
 signing the purple to the rank and merit of Germanus was opposed by his resolu- 
 tion, more obstinate, and equally sincere : the senate and clergy obeyed this 
 summons, and as soon as the patriarch was assured of his orthodox belief, he con- 
 secrated, (he successful usurper in the church of St. John the Baptist." Gibbon; 
 sixth Amer. Kdit. of the Hist, of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Page 
 184. Vol. iii. A. D. 1830. 
 
 Thus it appears that Gregory did not act the part assigned him by 
 my friend, and that this accusation turns out to be, like a thousand 
 others, taken up at second hand, without examination or suspicion of 
 falsehood or incorrectness, against the pope, a mere fabrication with- 
 out a shadow of foundation in history ! What will this enlightened 
 audience now say ? What apology is my friend prepared to make 
 for having unconsciously led them into error? This case may illustrate 
 many others that are similar, and I beg it may not be forgotten. 
 Napoleon, Papin, &e. are parallels, the pontiff could not resist the 
 will of an entire people; and it would only perpetuate lawless vio- 
 lence and disorder to contest a claim to the throne, to which no one 
 was able to support his rival pretensions. The pope seeing that the 
 
 * In their clamors as n'ust Maurice, the people of Constantinople branded him 
 \vith the name of Man-ionite or -Marcionist; a heresy, (says Theophylact, Lib. 
 Viii. c. U.) PIT* TirOf uf*; , v>.:-.,i; .*,- ivr-ii*; rt xx. xxrays \x<rro ? . Did they only 
 cast out a vague reproach, or had the eniperor really listened to some oliscura 
 teacher of those ancient Gnostics ? 
 F
 
 62 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 people, who had the right, selected themselves a new ruler, like a 
 true lover of peace and friend of established order-pongratulated Phocaa 
 on his election, and used the language of scripture, be it observed, in 
 his letter, because anarchy was at an end, and an orthodox and gener- 
 ous prince substituted on the throne of C. P. for a tyrant, a miser, and 
 a suspected Marcionite heretic. Mauritius may have died penitent, 
 but he reigned without love for his subjects. 
 
 We were spoken to of the president of the U. S. He has the same 
 power and authority as Washington had while the constitution of the 
 country endures. And as long as the constitution of the church en- 
 dures, the successors of Peter have the authority of Peter. If there 
 was ever to come a time, when the true church was to fail, Jesus 
 Christ was bound by his wisdom, and love to foretell it. If it was his 
 intention to forsake the church, and if the power and authorities of all 
 the regularly constituted orders were to fail, he never should have 
 given it the promise of perpetual endurance, and the precise period, and 
 all the different circumstances of its defection should have been more 
 clearly and emphatically revealed, than any other event in the scrip- 
 ture. It is needless to add that such defection is not foretold ; but on 
 the contrary it is repeatedly declared by the Son of God, that his 
 church should stand forever, that his Holy Spirit should abide with it 
 all days, that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it. What is 
 the meaning of the words " the gates of Hell shall not prevail against 
 it?" In the east, laws were enacted, justice administered, and the 
 sages and people assembled for deliberation at the gates of the cities. 
 Hence the expression denotes, wisdom, subtlety, malice. Again, 
 when a city was invaded by a hostile army, the hottest fighting was 
 around its gates. In them and around them, were all the energies of 
 the conflicting hosts put forth and on the issue of the battle was sus- 
 pended a nationVweal or woe. Thus by the gates of Hell are clearly 
 meant, all the craft and power of Hell, the malice of heresy and er- 
 ror, the force and violence of persecution. All these shall rage around 
 the church in vain, for Christ is in the citadel, and his Holy Spirit is the 
 sentinel that guards fts outposts and defences from being overthrown 
 by error. But he says that the apostles had all power given to them 
 grant it but what was the nature of that power? what was its ex- 
 tent? It was a power to teach all nations. The weapon of their war- 
 fare was not carnal but spiritual ; " for our wrestling," says St. Paul, 
 Ephes. vi. 12. "is notagainst flesh and blood, but against principalities 
 and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, ngainstthe 
 spirits of wickedness in the high places." " Behold," says Christ, " 1 
 send you as lambs in the midst of wolves. Carry not with you scrip 
 nor staff, &c. Be not solicitous for the morrow, what you shall eat, or 
 wherewithal you shall be clothed. Behold the lilies of the field, they 
 sow not, neither do they spin and yet your Heavenly Father clotheth 
 them careth for them how much more ye, &c." By patience they 
 were to run towards the fight proposed to them, and by patience they tri- 
 umphed over their persecutors. The pope, should occasion require, 
 will show himself the faithful imitator of these heroic models. Were 
 he stript to-morrow of all external, temporal power whatever, and a 
 poor wanderer among the mountains of the moon in Abyssinia, he 
 would have no less power, and would be, for aught I know, no less 
 respected, than he is at present. His chief authority is, thank God,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGIOtf. 63 
 
 such as this world can neither give nor take away. Tt was given for 
 the salvation of the people of God, and as long as there is a soul to be 
 saved, a sheep to be "brought back to the fold, or a spiritual conquest 
 achieved for the glory of Christ, and the praise of his grace, so long 
 shall that power survive ; when all else decays, itself, amidst vicissi- 
 tudes unchanged, shall flourish in immortal youth. 
 
 For our sakes, in this distant province of creation, and at this late age, 
 as well as for those who saw the Word made flesh conversing among 
 men, was this commission given and this authority conferred. Our 
 souls were no less dear to Christ than were those of the first be- 
 lievers of glad tidings and Cincinnati was the rival of Jerusalem in 
 the Savior's love ! With him there was no exception of persons 
 neither past nor future. He provided for every casualty which he 
 foreknew should happen in the lapse of ages he anticipated every 
 favorable or adverse circumstance that should affect the condition of 
 his church, and with divine wisdom he adapted its constitutions to the 
 peculiar exigencies of every age and nation and individual believer, 
 until we reach "the consummation of the world." He sent his apos- 
 tles with power to ordain faithful men, who should in their turn be fit 
 to teach others. This is the charge that St. Paul repeated to Titus, 
 and thus has the succession of apostolic teachers been continued from 
 nation to nation, and from age to age, the church gaining in one region 
 of the earth what she had lost in another, renewing her youth like the 
 eagles, increasing her members, and daily transmitting to the bright 
 realms of heavenly glory innumerable multitudes of het children of 
 everytelime and tongue, and peculiarity of social government or manners. 
 
 The apostles exercised various functions I admit it. But they 
 substituted the deacons to wait on tables, and distribute, the alms, so 
 do their successors ; Christ gave them powers adequate to every 
 emergency. 
 
 It has been wrongly asserted, that Moses had no successor. Joshua 
 was, in one important branch, his successor, for it devolved on him to 
 lead the people into the land of promise, and without this consummation, 
 the ministry of Moses would have been in vain ; and there are Joshuas 
 now whose office it is to lead the people to their spiritual Canaan- 
 and as God obeyed the voice of Joshua, in commanding the sun to 
 stand still, so he now obeys the voice of his priests making suppli- 
 cation for his people. Here is an obvious analogy between the old 
 and the new covenants. My friend argues that, because Moses had 
 no successor, Peter could have none, and the apostles none; but it is 
 clear that Moses had a successor. All that Moses accomplished would 
 have been incomplete without a succession of ministry to carry on the 
 work of God in favor of his people, Israel. This, Eusebius beauti- 
 fully establishes, p. 46. So by the same analogy, it is necessary that 
 the succession of an apostolic priesthood should he continued for the car- 
 ry ing on of the Christian dispensation, and be transmitted down from gen- 
 eration of spiritual guides to generation, until they shall have conducted 
 all the people of God to the true land of promise, where I trust we shall 
 all meet, and cease to dispute, as we now do, like little children, at 
 the imminent risk of neglecting the weightier points of the law. For 
 myself, I am heartily sick of such interminable contention. Here 
 would I stop and suffer the matter to end without another word, if the 
 ead necessity was not imposed upon me of defending the impugned
 
 64 . * DK.AATE ON THE 
 
 tenets of my church, and giving with my voice the testimony which, 
 with the divine assistance, I should not hesitate to seal with my blood, 
 to the truths of the Roman Catholic faith. From the discharge of this 
 duty, nq true believer, still more no minister of God, should shrink ; 
 and it is worthy of notice that, with all the love and humil'ty of St. 
 Paul, he should have warned his disciple Timothy, and still more the 
 body of the faithful, against associating with "heretics." I never use 
 this word, as it is now so harshly understood, to designate those who 
 differ from me in religion ; but I know not how any human being is to 
 determine without the aid of a competent tribunal, who are heretics, 
 and who are not; for we cannot look into the heart. 
 
 I am told that an English divine was accustomed humorously to de- 
 fine these terms in this way. "Orthodoxy is my doxy and heterodoxy 
 is yours." But seriously, what being on earth can look into the secrets 
 of the heart? Who was to determine when heresy occurred 1 That 
 it existed in the early days of the church none can doubt. The apostles 
 denounced it. They delivered its authors to Satan (of whom S't. Paul 
 says, are Hymeneus and Alexander whom I have delivered to Satan, that 
 they may learn not to blaspheme. 1st Tim. 1. 20.) The apostles did 
 not suffer their disciples to make this discrimination for themselves, in 
 defiance of the express word of God. They did not allow every man 
 to assert the right of private judgment on scripture, which they taught 
 was of no "private interpretation." 2 Peter, 1. 20. The very form 
 "understanding this first" exceedingly strengthens the text. Divisions 
 will ever exist. They are, unfortunately, as natural to depraved man, 
 as vice ; and but little, if at all less fatal. " There were als^falae 
 prophets among the people" says St. Peter, 2d Ep. xi, 1, even a 
 there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of 
 perdition, and again v. 10 and 12, " They fear not to bring in sects, 
 blaspheming those things that they know not, promising their disciples 
 liberty, whereas they. themselves are the slaves of corruption." T u ese 
 are fountains without water, clouds tossed with whirlwinds, or as St. 
 Jude says, v. 13, /'raging waves of the sea, foaming out of their 
 own confusion, wandering stars to whom the storm of darkness is re- 
 served for ever." Who would trust his safety in a perilous voyage 
 to an unskilful pilot ? Who would risk the horrors of the deep without 
 chart or compass'? Has God abandoned his children so far as to leave 
 them a prey to every innovator, every wolf in sheep's clothing 1 Is 
 there no ark of safety for man, while the waters of error overspread 
 the earth'? Yes, my friends, there is. It is the church. That ark 
 alone can save the world. " Whosoever," says St. John, 2d Ep. 9, 
 10, "revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not 
 God. If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive 
 him not into the house, nor say to him, ' God speed you.' For he that 
 sayeth ' God speed you,' communica,teth with his wicked works." 
 This admonition, we understand to be directed against false religions 
 and false teachers. It does not forbid charity, which we owe to all 
 men, and particularly the erring; for whom, we are taught it to be our 
 duty to pray, that they may happily come to the knowledge of 
 truth. 
 
 I confess that, for my part, I cannot practise this doctrine literally, 
 nor refuse to salute one who differs from me in faith. I retain my 
 own convictions and eschew his errors. The apostles did differently,
 
 HOMA3V CATHOLIC RELIGION. 65 
 
 and who will presume to say, they were not more enlightened than we 1 
 When St. John met Cerinthus (who denied the divinity of Christ) in 
 the baths of Ephesus, he ran out saying that he was afraid the baths 
 would fall upon him. And when his disciple St. Polycarp met Mar- 
 cion, in the streets of Rome, he refused to salute him. " Do you not 
 know me ?" said Marcion. " 1 do know youi" replied Polycarp, " to be 
 the oldest son of the Devil." This shows the dread of religious inno- 
 vators entertained by the apostles of Christ and by their disciples, the 
 dangerous result of heresy. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 11 o'clock, A. M. 
 Mr. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 I am sorry that I cannot sympathize with the gentleman in his em- 
 barrassment, occasioned, as he alleges, in being obliged to respond 
 promptly to objections to his doctrines, which, he says, he cannot anti- 
 cipate. So far as he is placed in the predicament of a respondent to 
 my allegations, he has no one to blame but himself. When arrang- 
 ing the preliminaries as to the mode in which this discussion was to 
 be conducted, the gentleman perseveringly insisted that I should lead 
 the way, commencing every session ; and that, whether the proposition 
 were affirmative or negative, he must always respond. It was a sine 
 qua non with him, that he should always have the last word. I 
 would, as an apology for giving him such an advantage, inform my au- 
 dience, that on no other condition would he consent to meet me. If, how- 
 ever, he sincerely dislikes the arrangement, Iam willing to alter it, 
 and change places with him to-morrow. The affirmative, should, in 
 all right, and by universal usage, open, and the respondent follow, in 
 debate. 
 
 I regard this discussion, my friends, as a very serious and important 
 affair, involving in it the very best interests of the whole community. 
 I do not appear here to speak for myself alone in behalf of Protestant- 
 ism, or to you alone'. I speak for my contemporaries, and for the great 
 cause of truth ; and I am glad for their sake that this debate is imme- 
 diately to go to record. I must, therefore, give as connected a form 
 as circumstances will permit to my argument. For this reason, I 
 passed over some things in the speech of yesterday that I might finish 
 my first argument this morning. I unfortunately, however, forgot to 
 notice them before I commenced my second proposition. 
 
 I will now recapitulate. 
 
 The question was asked me, yesterday evening, " Where was the 
 true church before the time of the Greek schism 1 ?" I observed, this 
 morning, in answer, that my having shown the Greek church to be the 
 Benior, or the original of the Roman, did not necessarily involve the 
 idea that the Greek church was at the time nf separation the true Catholic 
 church. To this answer the gentleman has not replied ; but yet reiter- 
 ates the question. His assumption of a church of nations with a poli- 
 tical head, having always existed, so confounds him that he cannot see 
 a church without a pope, or a national establishment. I might ask, 
 in reply, where was the church before the days of Constantine ? 
 
 We can, however, show that from the earliest times there has ex- 
 isted a people whom no man can remember, that have earnestly and 
 consistently contended for the true faith, once delivered to the saints. 
 If he requires me to put my finger on the page of history on which is 
 F>2 5
 
 66 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 described the commencement of the degeneracy of the Roman diocese 
 from the true faith, I will turn back to about the year of our Lord '250. 
 Then the controversy between Cornelius and Novatian, about the 
 bishopric of Rome, embraced the points at issue, which separated the 
 true church from that which was then grievo*usly contaminated with 
 error and immorality. It'was, indeed, a controversy ahout the purity 
 of communion and discipline, rather than about articles of doctrine. 
 And it is worthy of remark, that such was the principal issue made at 
 that time, although the doctrine of Christianity will not long continue 
 pure in a degenerate community. 
 
 I have here, before me, Eusebius, the oldest of ecclesiastical histo- 
 rians, who informs us that Novatus and his party were called 
 Cathari'oT Puritans. And, although he appears greatly incensed a- 
 gainst Novatus and his party, he can record no evil against them ex- 
 cept their " uncharitableness" in refusing to commune with those of 
 immoral and doubtful character. 
 
 The gentleman has given you his definition of orthodoxy and hete- 
 rodoxy : my definition is the strong party is the orthodox, and the 
 weak party is the heterodox. 
 
 I hold in my hand one of the latest and best historians Wadding- 
 ton. My learned opponent has already introduced him to your ac- 
 quaintance. He is a Fellow of Trinity college, Cambridge, and 
 Prebendary of Ferring, in the cathedral church of Chichester. The 
 account he gives of these reformers is sustained by Jones and other 
 ecclesiastical historians. I prefer Waddington for his brevity and 
 perspicuity. He says : 
 
 " We may conclude with some notice of the sect of the Novatians who were 
 stigmatized at the time both as schismatics and heretics; but who may perhaps 
 be more properly considered as the earliest body of ecclesiastical reformers 
 They arose at Rome about the year 250, A. D. and subsisted until the fifth cen 
 tury throughout every part of Christendom. Novatian, a presbyter of Rome was 
 a man of great talents and learning, and of character so austere, that he was un- 
 willing, under any circumstances of contrition, to re-admit those who had beer 
 once separated from the communion of the church. And this severity he would 
 have extended not only to those who had fallen by deliberate transgression, but 
 even to such as had made a forced compromise of .their faith under the terrors of 
 persecution. He considered the Christian church as a society, where virtue and 
 innocence reigned universally, and refused any longer to acknowledge as mem- 
 bers of it, those who had once degenerated into unrighteousness. This endea- 
 vor to revive the spotless moral purity of the primitive faith was found inconsis- 
 tent with the corruptions even of that early age; it was regarded with suspicion 
 by the leading prelates, as a vain and visionary scheme; and those rigid princi- 
 ples which had characterized and sanctified the church in the first century, were 
 abandoned to the profession of schismatic sectaries in the third." 
 
 This sounds a little like Protestantism. Our author proceeds : 
 
 "From a review of what has been written on this subject, some truths may be 
 derived of considerable historical importance; the following are among them : 
 1. In the midst of perpetual dissent and occasional controversy, a steady and dis- 
 tinguishable line, both in doctrine and practice, was maintained by the early 
 church, and its efforts against those, whom it called heretics, were zealous and 
 persevering, and for the most part consistent. Its contests were fought with the 
 'sword of the spirit,' with the arms of reason and eloquence; and as they were 
 always unattended by. personal oppression, so were they most effectually success- 
 ful successful, not in establishing a nominal unity, nor silencing the expression 
 of private opinion, but in maintaining the purity of the faith, in preserving the 
 attachment of the great majority of the bel'evers, and in consigning, either j.o im- 
 mediate disrepute, or early neglect, all the uuscriptural doctrines which wera 
 juccessively arrayed against it."
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 67 
 
 Other truths are here stated, as consequent from the premises. 1 
 will however for the satisfaction of my Episcopalian friends read what 
 follows, ii this connection on church government. 
 
 "There was \et no dissent on the subject of church government. It was uni- 
 versiillv and undisputably Kjiiscopal , even the reformer Novatian, after his ex- 
 pulsion from the church, assumed the direction of his own rigid sect under the ti- 
 tle, of bishop; and if am dissatisfaction had existed as to the established method 
 of directing the church, it would certainly have displayed itself on the occasion 
 of a schism, which entirt ly. respected matters of practice and discipline." Hiit. 
 oft/ie chit. p. 79. 
 
 These Puritans or reformers spread all over the world, and continu- 
 ed to oppose the pretensions of those who, from being the major par- 
 ty, claimed to be the Catholic or only church. They continued undei 
 the name of Novatians for more than two centuries ; but finally were 
 merged in the Donatists, who, indeed, are the same people under ano- 
 ther name. These Donatists were a very large and prosperous commu- 
 nity. We read of 279 Donatist bishops in one African council. Of 
 these Donatists the same historian deposes : 
 
 " The Donatists have never been charged with the slightest show of truth 
 with any error of doctrine, or any defect in church government or discipline, or 
 anv depravitv of moral practice ; they agreed in every respect with their adver- 
 saries, except one they did not acknowledge as legitimate the ministry of the 
 African church, but considered their own body to be the true, uncorrupted, uni- 
 versal church.'' 
 
 Mark it. The Donatists considered their own body to be the true, 
 uncorrupted, universal church! "It is quite clear," our author pro- 
 ceeds : 
 
 ' It is quite clear, that they pushed their schism to very great extremities, even 
 to that o( rejecting the communion of all. who were in communion with the 
 church which they called false ; but this was the extent of their spiritual oflence, 
 even from the assertions of their enemies." Wad. Hist. p. 154. 
 
 The Donatists, in some two centuries, were amalgamated with the 
 Paulicians. They, too, were called Puritans. Jones, who has been at 
 the greatest pains to give thjeir history, gives the following account of 
 them : 
 
 " About the year 660, a new sect arose in the east, under the name of PAULI- 
 CIANS, which is justly entitled to our attention. 
 
 " In Mananalis, an obscure town in the vicinity of Somosata, a person of the 
 name of Constantine entertained at his house a deacon, who having been a pris- 
 oner among the Mahometans \va returning from Syria, whither he had been 
 carried away captive. From this passing stranger Constantine received the pre 
 cious gift of the ISew Testament in its original language, which even at this ear- 
 ly period, was so concealed from the vulgar, that Peter Siculus, to whom we owe 
 most of our information on the history of the Paulicians, tells us the first scrupleg 
 of a Catholic, when he was 1 ad vised to read the bible was, "it is not lawful for us 
 profane persons to read those sacred writings, but for the priests only." Indeed, 
 the gross ignorance which pervaded Europe at that time, rendered the generality 
 cf the people incapable of reading that or any other book; but even those of the 
 laity who could read, were dissuaded by their religious guides from meddling^ith 
 the Bible. Constantine however, made the best use ot the deacon's present he 
 studied the .New Testament with unwearied assiduity and more particularly the 
 writing! of the apostle Paul from which he at length endeavored to deduce a s\ stem 
 of doctrine and worship. He investigated the creed of primitive Christianity,' 
 says Gibbon, ' and whatever might be the success, a Protestant reader will applaud 
 the spirit of the enquiry.' The knowledge to which Constantine himself was, un- 
 der the divine M< ssiiiji t nabled to attain, negladly communicated to others around 
 him, and a Christian church was collected. In a little time, several individuals 
 Wose among them qualified for the work of the ministry ; and several other cliurch- 
 P.S were collected throughout Armenia and Cappauocia. It appears from the 
 whole of their history, to have been a leading ob l ct with Constantine and his
 
 68 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 brethren to w-store as far as possible the profession of Christianity to all its prim- 
 itive simplicity." Jones' Hist. Christian chh. p. 239. 
 
 Again : 
 
 "The Paulician teachers," says Gibbon, "were distinguished only by their 
 scriptural namts, by the modest title of their fellow pilgrims ; by the austerity 
 of their li 
 gift of the 
 
 thej- strongly censured." Id. ib. p. 240. 
 
 I might read almost to the same effect from Waddington and D* 
 Pin. True they are called heretics by those who call themselves Ca- 
 tholic and us heretics ; but what does this prove ? 
 
 Until the appearance of the Waldenses and Albigenses, these Pro 
 estants continued to oppose the church of nations in the east, and in 
 the west, until at one time they claimed the title of Catholic. We 
 read of hundreds of bishops attending the different councils in which 
 they met to oppose the violent assaults of their enemies. 
 
 It is sometimes difficult to say which were the more numerous party, 
 those in communion with the Cathari, or Puritans, sometimes called 
 Novatians, sometimes Donatists, sometimes Paulicians, sometimes 
 Waldenses ; but always, in fact, Protestants. 
 
 The spirit of true religion seems to have fled from Rome from the 
 first appearance of the Novatians. The first schism at Rome acknow 
 ledged and recorded by the Roman Catholic historians, is that which 
 occurred at the election of Cornelius over Novatus. Hence Novatus 
 is called the first anti-pope. Du Pin and Barronius amply testify of 
 the violence by which St. Peter's chair was often filled with a vicar 
 after this schism. In the election of Damasus many were killed in the 
 churches of Rome. One hundred and thirty four persons, beaten 
 to death by clubs, were carried out of a single house at this election. 
 Had the Holy Spirit any thing to do in thus filling the chair of St. Pe- 
 ter with a vicar of Christ! Is the church which permits such things 
 and which has been sustained by such means, the true church of God ? 
 Is the person thus elected, the supreme head of Christ's church 
 the proper vicar of Christ! ! May we not then say that the spirit of 
 God on that day, had departed from Rome? And may we not add, 
 from the documents before us, that if there be any truth in history, 
 we have found a succession of witnesses for the ancient faith against 
 Rome, from the days of the first schism till the present hour ? 
 
 There is but another point in the speech of my opponent, to which 1 
 will now respond. I called on him to explain the difference between 
 the claim of the title of pope, or universal father, (as St. Gregory op- 
 posed it,) and the same claim as now maintained by the head of the 
 church. The name pope, indeed, has in modern times, much changed 
 its meaning; for once it was applied to all bishops, and is now ap- 
 plied to every priest in the Greek church. But when has the title 
 " universal father," been changed ? He alluded, in reply, to the 
 schism between the Greek church and the Roman church. The Greek 
 church, it seems, would not allow that the ordinances of religion with- 
 out their sanction, were validly administered. Is not that the very 
 plea of Rome at this hour? Does she not say, that the bishops and 
 clergy of the English church are all laymen, because Xhnt church se-^ 
 parated from the Roman church ; and that all the authority she had 
 from her has been since revoked by the authority that gave it ? How
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 69 
 
 often are we told that the pope has the power of resuming all authority 
 given him that he can create, and afterwards destroy 1 ? that whatever 
 ecclesiastical power he gives, he can take away ; and that therefore 
 all heretics excommunicated and anathematized have no power left to 
 perform the ordinances of religion] The ground upon which the gen- 
 tleman stands as to his defence of the authority of the pope, is precise- 
 ly the ground of Gregory's opposition to the title, as claimed by Boni- 
 face in. if I can understand his attempt to explain it. 
 
 But I must advert, before I sit down, to a single point on which I 
 touched in my speech of this morning, viz. that of the councils. The 
 gentleman asks, did not Sylvester the pope preside in the first general 
 council by his legate 1 I affirm that .he cannot show documents to 
 prove that fact. Nay, let him show, if he can, that the first seven 
 councils were called by the bishops of Rome, or that his legates were 
 there to preside. 
 
 What would the gentleman prove by the fact, if it be a fact, that a 
 Roman bishop presided over one of these councils 1 That, therefore, 
 they were Roman councils 1 How would such logic pass with us with 
 regard to the house of representatives ? His argument runs thus : Mr. 
 Henry Clay was once speaker of that house, Mr. Clay is from Ken- 
 tucky, therefore, the house of representatives were all Kentuckians ! 
 This would be exactly the pith of the logic we have heard. 
 
 My opponent admits the history of the first seven councils which I 
 have given to be correct: but explains it by asserting that all the busi- 
 ness was eastern. But there were western heresies, as well as eastern, 
 and western business as well as eastern transacted in these councils. 
 I therefore object to his exposition of that matter. It would have been 
 impolitic on his exposition to call together eastern men to decide 
 upon eastern heresies. They ought to have sent western men, who 
 would have been more impartial judges. But he has not yet adduced 
 one document, showing that these councils were called for such purpo- 
 ses, or that the east only was concerned in these q estions. 
 
 On the prefix " Calhnlic" to the epistles, the .rentleman did not 
 hear me, or did not apprehend my meaning. The argument is not a- 
 bout its antiquity but its authority! He has not proved, and cannot 
 prove that it was so prefixed in the first ages, nor that it was ever so 
 applied by any inspired writer. Having brought no documents to 
 prove this, his reasoning is wholly irrelevant. 
 
 But you have been treated, my friends, to a feast from the "Baptist 
 Banner" one of the party ephemerals opposed to reformation. Un- 
 fortunately for the cause of religion, every age has produced a crop of 
 these special pleaders for party tenets. Many such a banner was un- 
 furled against Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley and all re- 
 formers : for they were all heretics and controversialists. Indeed there 
 never was a good man on earth who was not a controversialist. From 
 the days of Abel and Noah till the present hour, the friends of truth 
 have been heretical and controversial. But what has the Baptist Ban- 
 ner to do with tue present points at issue ? Is the gentleman so hard 
 pressed as to form such alliances, to deliver himself or cause from ruin ? 
 I trust he will either keep, or be kept to the question in debate, and 
 leave Protestants to settle their own controversies. [Time ex- 
 j-irt-d.]
 
 70 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 I thought we should be placed under considerable obligations to my 
 friend, for putting his finger upon the historic page that records the 
 day and date of the apostacy of the Roman Catholic church from the 
 true and holy Apostolic church, wilh so much precision. But now we 
 are adjourned back nearly 1000 years, and yet nothing more definite 
 than a "some time about the year 250!" Some time about! He 
 does not tell us whether it was in one year, or another, that the church 
 began to be corrupt. It was some time about, and so on. About this 
 time, it seems, the Novatians separated from the church well, Paul 
 foresaw that such events would occur in the church's history he 
 foresaw that " ravenous wolves would enter the fold ;" that dissensions 
 would exist, at all successive periocfs, to the end of time that every 
 day new heretics would start up, who would deny the truth, introduce 
 false doctrine, and trouble the people of God. The Novatians were 
 one of these sects and what did they teach? Why the most revolt- 
 ing and horrible doctrines ; among others, the doctrine that a convert 
 to Christianity, who, in times of peril and temptation, nay even when 
 compelled by physical force, should forsake his creed, could never be 
 restored, no matter how sincerely penitent. Who that feels his frailty 
 and knows that his heart in an evil hour might stray from duty, does 
 not revolt at such a doctrine, that for one offence would cut him off 
 forever! God dealt not so with Adam, nor Christ with Peter, when 
 at the voice of a woman, and in an evil hour, even his strong heart 
 failed him. He admitted him to mercy, received him back to his 
 bosom, and made him the rock of his church. 
 
 But if all heretics are right, and this among the number if the 
 church was wrong in separating herself from these men if it is her 
 duty to say to the upholder of false doctrine "all hail," you areas 
 free from error, as incorrupt and immaculate, as we are, come partake 
 with us, we are of one communion; the rule should, according to the 
 gentleman's logic, work both ways, and Rome has as good a right as 
 anyother to be called thy church of Christ. On the other hand, if the 
 Novatians were right, as he says they were, in excluding others, the 
 church was right in excluding them. The speech of heretics, St. Paul 
 tells us, 2d Tim. ii. 17, spreadeth like a cancer; he elsewhere says, 
 that evil communication corrupts good manners; and the Pagans were 
 not 'nsensible to the wisdom of the distich 
 
 " Frincipiis ohsta ; sero inedicina paratur 
 "Cum mala per lons^as iuvaluere moras." 
 
 My friend must have forgotten his argument of this morning, when 
 he said that the church of the living God should include none but the 
 pure and holy. If this be true, we must all give it up; for WHO is holy ] 
 Which of us can lay his hand upon his heart and say I AM WITHOUT 
 sin ? No, we are only holy in acknowledging our sinfulness and guilt 
 in the sight of God, with humility and prayer. " If we say we have 
 no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us! If we say 
 we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. If 
 we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to 
 clear us from. all iniquity." St. John, Ep. If such be the gentleman's re- 
 quisitions, there can be no church of Christ in this erring world. There 
 Is none pure from defilement, says Job, and all are included as the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 71 
 
 objects of divine displeasure, from which only the blood of Christ, 
 with faith, repentance and good works, can save us. If the gentleman 
 insists on applying a test which would require absolute perfection to 
 enable us to endure it, there is no such holiness, that I am aware of, 
 exhibited in this probationary state. My friend may feel a proud con- 
 sciousness that he is a happy instance of its existence, but for my part, 
 1 cannot, I should not think it safe to lay the flattering unction to my 
 soul. I would advise no man to do so, while the great St. Paul com- 
 mands us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling; and tells 
 us, he chastised his own body, lest while he preached to others he 
 himself " should become a reprobate," 1st. Cor. ix. 27. It is our duty 
 to acknowledge that we are frail and sinful mortals even like the rest 
 of men. Establish a contrary rule, and pride digs one abyss after 
 another beneath our feet, and there will not be left one virtuous feeling, 
 one sound principle upon which we can take our stand to make a 
 last appeal to heaven for mercy ! When Christ empowered the church 
 to throw her nets into the sea of human life, as the apostles did into 
 _ the lake, she gathered into it fishes, both good and bad ; when the nets 
 are hauled ashore, the good fish will be selected and the bad thrown 
 back into the sea. So will it be at the end of the world. The angels 
 of God will come forth and select the elect from the reprobate they 
 will gather the wheat into the garner, but the tares they will burn 
 with unquenchable fire. The Catholic church with a consciousness of 
 man's true condition in this life, and a liberality which does her honor, 
 and which, all agree, ought to belong to the fold of Christ, permits all to 
 -join in her religious festivals and exterior communion who profess the 
 same faith, and are willing to submit to her decisions as her children. 
 But mark the distinction between the body and the soul of the church, 
 all who profess the true faith, assist at the same religious exercises 
 and obey the same pastors, belong to the body of the church and are 
 therefore numbered among her children ; but to faith and exterior com- 
 munion of which alone man can take cognizance, must be added hope and 
 love and grace with God, that we may belong to the soul of the church. 
 Of the latter the church does not undertake to decide. This she leaves 
 to God who alone can see the heart. She, herself, judges not the in- 
 scrutable things of the spirit of a man, but contents herself with know- 
 ing and teaching that nothing can escape the piercing and all-seeing 
 eye of God, who will render to every man according to his works, on 
 that day when the hope of the hypocrite shall perish. Hence, as long 
 as one of her members disqualifies not himself for the communion of 
 the faithful by flagrant impiety notorious depravity, or scandalous 
 excess, she rejects him not; but like" that charity of which St. Paul 
 speaks, 1st Cor. xiii. "is patient, is kind, thinketh no evil, rejoiceth 
 aot in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth, believeth all things, hopeth 
 all things, endureth all things, with modesty admonishing men, if per- 
 adventure God may give them repentance." 
 
 The gentleman quoted from Waddington the history of the Nova- 
 lians. He says, they continued, how long I know not, but TILL. ! 
 (forget not the word,) till they merged in the sect of Donatists. The 
 expressive word //// is enough. There is no such fatal and termiiiatinor 
 word in Catholic history. The Catholic church is universal, and not 
 sectarian. It is perpetual in duration, and is not merged as one wave 
 of error is mergv-1 in or obliterated by another. The gentleman asserts.
 
 72 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 that the Donalists did not differ from the Novatians. This is incor- 
 rect. The Donatists fell from schism into errors which the No- 
 vatians had never adopted. They employed the "savage Circum- 
 cel/ions," as the protestant historian Waddington calls them, to 
 pillage churches, murder Catholics, and perpetrate other acts of 
 barbarity unheard of among the meek followers of Jesus Christ. 
 What, too, will my friend say to the uncontrollable propensity to sui- 
 cide, which ihey were accused of encouraging and indulging with 
 dreadful frequency? Not so the true church she comes like Jesus 
 Christ to call sinners to repentance, and heal the contrite of heart 
 she employs his own inviting, and attractive, accents of pity and 
 compassion : " Come to me all you that labor and are heavy bur- 
 dened, and /will refresh you, not drive you to despair, to acts of self 
 destruction ; and you shall find rest for your souls." Matthew xi. 28. 
 A hard heart will fare badly in the end, says the scripture, and conse- 
 quently every feeling of justice and humanity revolts at the idea that 
 the Novatians could have been animated by the meek spirit of Jesus 
 Christ, when they condemned to eternal exclusion from the church for 
 a single, and that, frequently, a compulsory fault, as when an individ- 
 ual was condemned by brute force to offer incense to the idols, or the 
 Donatists, who revolted against the authority of the African bishops, 
 and ravaged the countries where they prevailed with a lawless soldiery. 
 Is this the meek church of him who came to preach deliverance to 
 captives'? Must we palliate these and a hundred similar excesses, to 
 criminate a church which would, if her mild counsels were obeyed, have 
 averted these evils from mankind 1 Is it candid, is it just, to blame her 
 without cause and to withhold praise where it is due 1 ? The Roman 
 Catholic church has never given the example of such cruelty. She 
 o.n the contrary admits all sinners to repentance, she counts as belonging 
 to her communion, all the children baptized in Protestant communions 
 who die before they are capable of committing mortal sin, or who living 
 in invincible ignorance that they have been bred up in error, keep 
 the commandments of God, and love him, as far as their knowledge of 
 his divine nature will permit. All these belong to the soul of the 
 church ; and are consequently among the most precious of her fold. 
 Even among the unenlightened Indians if any there be that keep inviola- 
 bly the natural law and serve their Creator according to the best lights 
 which they possess, these she enrolls among her children, and teaches 
 us to consider them as objects of God's special mercy, whom he will 
 not, according to St. Thomas Aquinas, fail to illustrate with the light 
 of divine ^truth. For this purpose the resources of his wisdom, are 
 like that wisdom, infinite. Thus while the Catholic church watches 
 with the most scrupulous fidelity over the purity of faith, in her 
 has the beautiful saying of the psalmist been fulfilled, " Mercy and 
 truth have met one another, justice and peace have kissed." Ps. 
 Ixxxiv. 11. 
 
 By what ingenuity can the gentleman flatter himself he will estab- 
 lish the claims of the discordant and evanescent sects of these early 
 ages to the title of Catholics. Sisyphus-like, these sects which he is 
 laboring so hard, so vainly, to roll up to the summit of that "moun- 
 tain placed upon the top of mountains," spoken of by Is. ii. 2. 
 and which is the aptest figure of the Catholic church, to which all na- 
 tions flow, will fall upon him and crush him. He can never prove
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 73 
 
 them Catholic in time, in place, or in doctrine. The Novatians did 
 not slip into the Donatists, nor the Donatists into the Paulicians ; there 
 was no common bond of union, no identity of doctrine, among these 
 heterogeneous sects. As it is the same sun which took its station in 
 the heavens at the creation that now shines over us, so it is the same 
 religion that was taught eighteen hundred years ago by Jesus Christ, 
 that irradiates us at this very day with the light of truth ; and not more 
 difficult would it be to count all the vapors, mists and clouds, that 
 passed athwart the bright luminary of day since he first gladdened the 
 universe with his beams, than to enumerate the numberless sects that 
 have cast their shadows on the light of Catholic holiness, and purity, 
 and truth, since the origin of Christianity. They have passed, or are 
 fast passing away for ever, while she lasts on, and will last till the end 
 of time. " I have seen the wicked," says the Psalmist, xxxvi. 35, 
 " highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon. And I 
 passed, and lo ! he was not, and his place was not to be found." This 
 is a glorious indication of the stability of the Catholic church of the 
 truth of the power that sustains her. And as she signalized her 
 triumph over all the false gods of Paganism, by establishing the 
 church of All Saints, and of the God who made them saints, on the 
 ruins of the greatest of idolatrous temples, so does she signalize her 
 triumph over all sects and heresies, falsely professing to be Christian, 
 by the august pontiff who speaks to the eternal city and the Catholic 
 world. From the inspiration of scripture, and of splendid facts, I pass 
 to the inspiration of poetry, I care not whose, and close the words of 
 my argument in the words of Byron : 
 
 "But thou of temples old, or altars new, 
 Standest alone with nothing like to thee 
 Worthiest of God, the holy and the true! 
 Since Zion's desolation, wnen that He 
 Forsook his former city, what could be 
 Of earthly structures in his honor pil'd 
 Of a subhmer aspect ? Majesty, 
 Power, glory, strength, ancfbe<-utv, all are aisl'd, 
 In this eternal ark of worship uncfefil'd." 
 
 * * * * * 
 
 My friend has dwelt eloquently upon riots in the church in particu- 
 lar seasons of excitement. But shall a society forfeit all claims to 
 regard, because, in seasons of high excitement, differences of opinion 
 proceed to violence 1 ? or a few bad people come to blows? It has 
 happened, and may happen among all denominations, even the most 
 peaceful sects, and everybody of men; (instances were here specified.) 
 A riot may take place at an election of president, and blood be shed ; 
 but does this affect the title of chief magistrate of this union ? Is he 
 to lose his office because blows were struck during the election? and 
 if the pope could not always be elected peaceably, by reason of the 
 disturbances created by men, was the succession to cease, and was 
 there never to be a pope again, or a bishop, or any other pastor in the 
 church ? was Christ not God because Peter, the servant Malchus, shed 
 blood for him? See the terrible effects of my friend's bad reasoning. 
 The deist has availed himself of it, and denied the God of the Old 
 Testament, because exterminating wars, as we there read, were waged 
 at his command. We must make allowances for the passions and 
 G 10
 
 J4 DEBATE OW THE 
 
 weaknesses of hnman nature; but the aim of religion is to correct, ff 
 heal, if she cannot entirely remove them. When the pope was olected, 
 in the case alluded to, he restored order. As Christ said to Peter, so 
 said he to the mob excited by Novatian, " Put up again thy sword 
 into its place, for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword." 
 Matthew xxvi. 62. 
 
 The gentleman asked me to tell him in what objectionable sense the 
 bishop of Constantinople claimed the title of Universal Father. Ii 
 was in a sense never used before; he had no title to it; he assumed 
 too much in claiming it. Again, it was he who pretended that no> 
 sacrament could be administered but by his authority. The Catholic 
 church teaches that, however illicitly: he may exercise it, no anthority 
 on earth can take even from a degraded prrest the power of consecrat- 
 ing. Schismatical bishops, when duly ordained themselves, could 
 ordain bishops, priests and inferior clergy. We admit the baptism 
 of Methodists and Baptists by aspersion, or knrnersioB, as I have- 
 already explained; and even the orders of the English Episcopal 
 church are contested, on the ground of the very serious doubt whether 
 the first of their bishops was, himself, consecrated by a bishop, or 
 if so, by a valid formulary. 
 
 My friend was not at all accurate in stating the number of bishops 
 present at some of the first councils. There were more present at 
 them, as I can easily shew, than he has stated. He draws a parallel 
 oetween the council of Nice and the house of representatives. I da 
 not understand the force of his analogy. If that council belonged ex 
 clusively to the Greeks, why did they permit a Latin to preside 1 ? But 
 it was to shew the world that they admitted the authority of Rome 
 that Osius, the pope's legate, presided and without his signature, 
 and the pope's approbation, their acts would have had no force as rules 
 of Catholic faith. What analogy is there between Henry Clay and 
 Osius? Did they stand in the same relation to their respective assem- 
 blies 1 Did they ever dream that they would be placed in juxta posi- 
 tion 1 If the speaker of the house, or the president of the senate, were 
 to object to the passing of a law, would his veto avail anything*? 
 would not the majority rule? 
 
 My friend said, first, that Catholic was a new term ; and next, when 
 he found it impossible to prove that, insisted it was not used" to designate 
 the church, by inspired writers. I have abundantly disproved both 
 of these assertions. The apostles were inspired writers, and it dates 
 from their time; and they alone, according to the rule of St. Augustin, 
 had the right to institute it. Besides, what are all the glorious pro- 
 phesies of the universal diffusion of the church by Isaiah, &c. &c. but 
 the evidence that it should be what its name imports! In fact, it was 
 Catholic before all the New Testament was completed. And the 
 apostles, aware of che doubts that error would originate on the autho- 
 rity of the. church, gave a sure and unerring guide to every sincere be- 
 liever, teaching him to say, next after the profession of his belief in <jod 
 himself not, I believe in the bible it is not once mentioned not in 
 any sect there were none heard of at that time bat " I believe in tht 
 holy Catholic church." [Time expired. ~[
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 75 
 
 Three o'clock, P. Af. 
 MR. CAMYBELI. rises 
 
 I may have mistaken in ascribing to the bishop of Rome what was 
 done by the bishop of Constantinople, in reference to the personal 
 consecration of the successor of Mauritius ; but this does not affect 
 the justice of my remark, or invalidate my reasoning : and I ihink 
 my worthy friend apprehends this, inasmuch as the consecration was 
 approved and sustained by Gregory. I read those documents at the 
 same time, and may have confounded them, but we shall hear them 
 again and see how much is either gained cr lost by the admission. 
 
 " As a subject and a Christian, it was the duty of Gregory to acquiesce in the 
 established government, but the joyful applause with which he salutes the for- 
 tune of the assassin, has sullied with indelible disgrace the character of the 
 saint. The successor of the apostles might have inculcated with decent firm- 
 ness the guilt of blood, and the necessity of repentance : he is content to cele- 
 brate the deliverance of the people and the fall of the oppressor; to rejoice that 
 the piety and benignity of Phocas have been raised by providence to the impe- 
 rial throne; to pray that his hands may be strengthened against all his enemies; 
 and to express a wish, perhaps a prophecy, that, after a long and triumphant 
 reign, he may be transferred from a temporal to an everlasting kingdom."* 
 Giblion Hist. Dec. and Fall Rom. Emp. vol. viii. p. 211. 
 
 Now this, if I mistake not, amounts in substance to my affirmation. 
 Gregory approved the usurpation, and sanctioned the induction into 
 office of a man who had wrested the throne from the legitimate master, 
 and who was both a murderer and a usurper. 
 
 I could wish that my opponent would select some of the great points 
 of my argument in his replies, and form an issue with me. Were this 
 piece of history blotted out of existence, what loss to the main argu- 
 ment? These are merely incidental and minor matters illustrations 
 rather than proofs, and leave the great facts as they were. I must, 
 however, briefly glance at some other little things before I resume my 
 argument. 
 
 The gentleman's next remark was, " that Joshua was the successor 
 of Moses." True it is, that every man is in one sense successor to 
 some one who preceded him. But Moses was, for a time, captain, 
 prophet, priest, and king of Jeshurun. Joshua, however, merely com- 
 manded the people, and divided the land of Canaan among them. This 
 aid not Moses : Moses accomplished all that he was appointed to do. 
 He needed no successor in the peculiar work assigned him. They 
 were both extraordinary offices. Moses was a law-giver, and Joshua 
 a savior. The law was given to the people by Moses : Joshua gave 
 them an inheritance. Neither of them, in the nature of things, could 
 have a successor in the same office, for its duties were all discharged. 
 
 I was pleased to hear the gentleman admit all that I said concerning 
 the Novatians. They had one fault which \ve both allow they were 
 too severe in one branch of discipline they could never receive those 
 who had grievously fallen no repentance would obtain re-admission 
 if the penitent had very flagrantly sinned. The occasion was this: 
 
 * Gregor. 1. xi. p.pist. 38, indict, vi. Benignitatem vestrae pietatis ad impe- 
 riale fastigiani pervenisse gaudemus. Lnetentur coeli et exultet terra, et de 
 vestris benignis acribus universae reipublica; populus nunc usque vehementer 
 afflictus hilarescat, &c. This base flattery, the topic of Protestant invective, it 
 justly censured by the philosopher Bayle, (Dictionnaire Critique, Gregoire 1 
 JTCot.' H. ton), ii. p. 597, 598.) Cardinal Barronius justifies the pope at the ex- 
 pense of the fallen emperor.
 
 76 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 In the interim of the Pagan persecutions, many new converts were 
 added to the churches. By and by, when the storm of persecution 
 arose, they withdrew and fell away: but when a calm ensued, they 
 sought to be restored to the church. The Novatians opposed their 
 restoration ; the other party contended for it. The Puritans got vexed 
 with the frequent indulgences and backslidirigs of such professors; 
 and this occasioned that extreme on their part, which drew down upon 
 them many anathemas from the other party. They had other objec- 
 tions besides this against the opposing party; but this was sufficient 
 for a division. 
 
 I was sorry to hear the gentleman excusing the church for embrac- 
 ing in its bosom men of every sort of wickedness. He spoke with 
 great feeling and eloquence upon the subject of calling ourselves holy, 
 &c. We admit that there is no man free from all pollution, whose 
 heart is always and only pure. But what has this to do with the 
 openly wicked and profane reprobates of the deepest dye 1 Ought 
 the church to open her doors as wide as the human race, and admit 
 every human being without discrimination] Is there no medium? 
 He quoted the parable of the tares and wheat. It is true, llw Savior 
 commanded to let the tares and wheat grow together till Harvest : but 
 the gentleman assunied that it was spoken of the church- I admit the 
 doctrine, as applied to the world. " The field is the world" not the 
 church, said the Savior. Does this excuse us Tor tolet&ting reprobates 
 in the bosom of the church? "You are not of this TOI! J," says the 
 Savior to his disciples "My kingdom is not of this vorld," " Come 
 out from among them, and separate yourselves, and I will receive you, 
 says the Almighty Father. What concord his ChiUt with Belial, or 
 he that believeth-with an infidel?" 
 
 As to the"continuation of the Novatians till the Donatists, and the 
 Donatists till the Paulicians," &c. my friend emphasizes the word till, 
 as if those witnesses for Christ had died away when some new sect 
 arose. The fact is, that when some great leader arose, his name was 
 imposed upon all that associated with him; and different leaders, in 
 various parts of the world, moved great masses of professors, who 
 were essentially the same people; and when they became acquainted 
 with each other, they coalesced under one great profession, variously 
 nicknamed by the opposite party. So are the Lutherans, Calvinists, 
 Wesleyans, Cameronians, &c. of our own time. 
 
 Sorry was I to hear my liberal antagonist compare the Protestant 
 sects to the psalmist's description of a prosperous wicked man "I 
 saw," says he, "the wicked great in power, spread himself like a 
 green bay tree: he passed away; yea, he was not. I sought him, and 
 he could not be found." I do not know how his Episcopalian friends 
 tvill thank him for this compliment. I have no doubt in this he was 
 sincere, for the Romanists often bewailed the long life of Elizabeth, 
 because, under her reign, a new race of Protestants was born and edu- 
 cated, and alienated from the Roman hierarchy, who were proof against 
 all the machinations of Rome. They hoped that the Protestant Epis- 
 copalians would, like the green bay tree of David, (emblem of the 
 prosperous wicked,) have withered away, and been reabsorhed by the 
 mother church ; but for once the application failed, and the wicked 
 Protestants have for three centuries grown and increased, in de- 
 spite of all the policy and effort of Rome, and are now in expectation
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 77 
 
 of seeing the same 37th psalm verified in the fates of Roman Catho- 
 licism. 
 
 Every sect and individual, as I said before, is passive in re- 
 ceiving a name. Sectarian names are generally given in the way of 
 reproach ; thus the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, 
 most probably in derision ; yet it was a very proper name. Call us 
 what you please, however, it does not change nature or race. The 
 disciples of Christ are the same race, call them Christians, Nasarenes, 
 Galileans, Novatians, Donatists, Paulicians, Waldenses, Albigenses, 
 Protestants, or what you please. A variety of designation affects not 
 the fact which we allege; we can find an unbroken series of Protes- 
 tants a regular succession of those who protested against the corrup- 
 tions of the Roman church, and endeavored to hold fast the faith once 
 delivered to the saints, from the first schism in the year 250, A. D. to 
 the present day ; and you may apply to them what description or de 
 signation you please. 
 
 The gentleman spoke of these sects as waves passing by while the 
 true church remained like a wall, immoveable and unchangeable. 
 History refuses him her suffrage in this assumption : for it deposes 
 that she has changed, in whole, or in part, her tenets and her disci- 
 pline, no less than eighteen times in all that is, once, at least for 
 every general council. She is the mutable immutable church, con- 
 tending for uniformity in faith and variety of discipline. 
 
 My opponent has quoted the apostles' creed. Du Pin, and a learn- 
 ed host prove that the apostles never wrote it. The doctrine contained 
 in it, I admit is apostolic. And it is worthy of remark that like all 
 old creeds, it states facts ; whereas modern creeds are human exposi- 
 tions of doctrines. For my own part, I can adopt every article of that 
 creed, ex ammo ,- except, perhaps, I would change one expression, and 
 say that ' I believe in a Catholic church.' I believe that there does 
 exist such a thing as a truly Catholic church of Christ. But as for 
 human creeds, I make no such platforms a bond of union among 
 Christians. We, like the Romanists, differ about church discipline 
 among ourselves : but all the Protestant world believes this ' apostles' 
 creed,' as it is called ; and are as uniform in this faith as the " mother 
 church" herself. ^ 
 
 I was sorry to hear the election of the pope, the pretended vicar of 
 Christ, as respects riots, and blows, and carnage, compared to that of 
 the president of the United States, and to have the excesses com- 
 plained of in Rome, excused on the ground, that sometimes we have 
 mobs, and perhaps a fight on a presidential election. Is the presiden- 
 tial chair of such dignity and sanctity as that of the vicar of Christ] ! 
 And is a riot or murder no more incongruous in the one case than in 
 the other 1 ? We opine, that he who holds that exalted station should 
 come into it without blood. And yet in all these political elections, 
 since the Protestant reformation, there is nothing to equal half the up- 
 roar, and tumult, and murder, that happened in filling the chair of St. 
 Peter, at the conflict between Damasus and Ursinus, not to mention a 
 second. Can it be compared to the election of the president so as to 
 transfer to the one the language which is pertinent to the other ? AS, 
 for example, " Take heed to the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT haa 
 placed you!" 
 
 The gentleman is glad that his church is so liberal as to authorize
 
 78 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 every sort of baptism, even that performed by heretics, provided only 
 the proper name be pronounced ! This is cer-tainly a modern excess 
 of liberality. If I am rightly informed, his predecessor, in this very 
 charge, was not so liberal as he in one case, at least, which occurred 
 at Portsmouth in this state. There were two members of the Episco- 
 pal church, one of the parties the son of an Episcopalian minister, de- 
 sirous of entering into matrimony. Bishop Fenwick desired to know 
 of what party the)' were, and on learning that they were Episcopalians, 
 refused to marry them, unless previously baptized by himself. There 
 may be many other instances of the same sort, certainly, in former 
 limes there were many, and so far as they prove that the church is not 
 immutable, are hopeful indications of the possibility of reform. But 
 this is not the question before us. We are not discussing baptism, or 
 the eucharist, or any of the "seven sacraments," or any ordinance of 
 the church. Will the gentleman inform us whether his church regards 
 the administration of the eucharist, or any other of her seven sacra- 
 ments valid, unless at the hand of those whom she authorizes to min- 
 nister them. Let him not wave the question by a reference to a prac- 
 tice which he knows can be explained on other principles. 
 
 I shall not now stop to dispute about Sylvester and the council ot 
 Nice : but shall resume my general argument where I left off. 
 
 All agree that if primacy or supremacy reside in the church at all, 
 it must reside in some person. If Jesus Christ intended to make Petei 
 the prince of apostles, the vicar of Christ; the title will prove it clear 
 ly. If this headship, on the other hand, was not given to Peter; none 
 can derive it from him by succession. Was Peter invested with this 
 authority'? If not, none can pretend to it as his successors. The 
 whole question rests on this. My learned opponent cannot show that 
 Peter ever had such an office. He affirms, indeed, that Peter was su- 
 perior to the rest of the apostles: but does he show in what respect ? 
 How many kinds of superiority might there have been in his case 1 I 
 will answer for him and say that there are, at least, four. 1st. of age, 
 2nd. of talents, 3d. of character, and 4th. of office. These are clearly 
 marked in holy writ, and fixed in society. Admit then that Peter is 
 head of the list; can he decide which of these four has placed him 
 first. . *ftie bishop asserts that he was first in office. But how can he 
 take this for granted, when there are three other ways in which Peter 
 might be at the head ? Is this the reasoning that logic or Catholicism 
 sanctions or requires 1 
 
 I would request the gentleman to tell us, how he knows which of 
 these four sorts of superiority to ascribe to Peter ! He assumes one, 
 and is bold in asserting the Catholic doctrine of a supreme head of the 
 church on this assumption. Peter may have been the oldest, or the 
 first called of all the apostles : or his character or talents may have 
 given him a decided superiority ; why then assume one, to the exclu- 
 sion of the others. The greatest empires have been built on the most 
 bold assumptions. But never was there a more baseless monarchy in 
 the annals of time than that of papal Rome. I wish my opponent 
 would for once assume, or take up some one of these grand points, on 
 which his church rests, and not waste his time in fighting about sha- ' 
 dows or peccadillos. Let him come at once to the great principles of 
 the debate. I challenge him to show cause, W 7 hy he assumes for Petei 
 a supremacy of office, rather than of age, of talent, or of character,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 
 
 any one of which is much more feasible and probable than that whicb 
 he has begged. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'c/oafc, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 I was far from charging Mr. C. with a wilful dereliction of the truth 
 when he stated, what he now confesses to be untrue, that Gregory 
 crowned Phocas. The imputed motive was very base, but he now 
 sees that it was not the pope's. I attribute this extraordinary mis- 
 take, on the part of my friend, to the fact of his having been too apt 
 to believe that every thing written against Catholics must be true, and 
 to his memory's not having been lately refreshed in his early readings. 
 But it is due to the public that he should apologize for having, 
 through warit of care on a matter of so much importance, fallen into 
 so very serious a mistake in what was calculated so deeply to injure 
 the truth. He should first have inquired whether all he said was 
 true. I repeat, then, that Gregory did not crown Phocas at all, much 
 less'for the express purpose of eliciting from the gratitude of the sover- 
 eign an acknowledgment of his " papal supremacy" for this recognition 
 was as old as Christianity. Order was restored in Constantinople. He 
 then sent him words of compliment on his accession. It is contrary to 
 the rules of sound argument to presume that Gregory approved of the 
 circumstances which led to the change of dynasty. Napoleon grasped 
 the Iron crown of Italy, from the altar and put it on his brow, for he 
 acknowledged no Donor thereof but his sword. So would Phocas, 
 very probably have done with the crown of C., whatever Gre- 
 gory might have thought of the act. Moreover, Phocas did not 
 hurl Mauritius from the throne. Mauritius abdicated, and the people, 
 not the bishop of C. P. made Phocas king, in the place of Mauritius, 
 a miser, and a tyrant ; and Gregory rejoiced, not at the disturbances but 
 at the restoration of order. My friend now treats these matters as 
 light, and incidental. It was he himself who made then principals, 
 by the manner in which he introduced them. He was arguing a knotty 
 point, the manner in which Rome came to " assume" her high pre- 
 rogative over the church. The plain, scriptural truth, that she came 
 to it by divine appointment was before his eyes, but he would not see 
 it. Is it to be wondered at that he saw in history what was not there ! 
 I will say no more on the subject of Joshua. Eusebius confirms, D. 4(3, 
 what I have said. The object of the ministry of the old or of the new 
 law, of the coming of Christ, of the shedding of his blood, and all the in- 
 stitutions of his religion, was not the setting up of a tabernacle in the wil- 
 derness, or the crossing of the Jordan, or the surveying of a piece of 
 land and dividing it among a few tribes, but the SALVATION OF MAN- 
 KIND, without any exception, or distinction of age, or clime ; and 
 this great work of regeneration and redemption is just as important 
 nd will continue so while there are IMMORTAL SOULS to be en- 
 lightened and saved, as it was in the days of the apostles. Their 
 office must remain, and their successors are charged with it. The 
 bishops and their assistant brethren watch over the safety of the fold, 
 and the sovereign pontiff sees that they and their flocks persevere in 
 unity. He watches over all. 
 
 Mr. C. persists in saying that the Xovatians, Donatists. Pauhcians 
 &c. &c. agreed in doctrine, aud may be considered as the Catholic
 
 80 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 church. I have already refuted this theory, but here is Protestant tes- 
 timony again to destroy it, and I hope we shall not waste any more 
 time on it, for it is too absurd. " No heretic," says Waddington, 
 p. 154, "was as likely as the Donatist to lay claim to the name Ca- 
 tholic; yet even a Donatist, while he maintained that the true spirit 
 and purity were alone perpetuated in his own communion, would scarce- 
 ly have affirmed that that was bnna fide the universal church, which 
 did not extend beyond the shores of Africa, and which had not the ma* 
 jority even there." Speaking of the sects in Dauphine and other errorists 
 condemned at Arras in 1025, the same author says, (p. 554) "It ia 
 proper to mention what these opinions really were, which were con 
 ' demned at Arras, lest it should be supposed that they were at variance 
 onlv with the Roman Catholic church, and strictly in accordance with 
 apostolic truth." " It was asserted that the sacrament of baptism 
 was useless and of no efficacy to salvation, (what does Mr. C. think 
 of this ?) that the sacrament of the Lord's supper was equally unne- 
 cessary. It appears that the objections of the heretics on this point 
 went beyond the mere denial of the change of substance that the 
 sacred orders of the ministry were not of divine institution that 
 penance was altogether inefficacious that marriage in general was 
 contrary to the evangelical and apostolical laws that saint-worship is 
 to be confined to the apostles and martyrs, &c. &c. so mixed and various 
 is the substance of those opinions to which learned writers on this 
 subject appeal with so much satisfaction." Again, " they were all taint- 
 ed more or less deeply by the poison of Manichaesism : and since it is 
 our object to establish a connexion, with the primitive church, we shall 
 scarcely attain it through those whose fundamental principle was un 
 equivocally rejected by that church, as irrational and impious." 555. 
 Mosheim says, 1st vol. p. 328, " Among the sects that troubled 
 the Latin church, this century, (the 12th) the principal place is due to 
 the Cathari, or Catharists, whom we have had already occasion to 
 mention. This numerous faction, leaving their first residence, which 
 was in Bulgaria, spread themselves throughout almost all the European 
 provinces, where they occasioned much tnmult and disorder. Their 
 religion resembled the doctrine of the Manicheans and Gnostics, on 
 which account they commonly received the denomination of the former, 
 though they differed in many respects from the genuine primitive 
 Manicheans. They all indeed, agreed in the following points of doc- 
 trine, viz. that matter was the source of all evil ; that the creator of 
 this world was a being distinct from the supreme deity ; that Christ 
 was neither clothed with a real body, nor could be properly said to 
 have been born, or to have seen death ; that human bodies were the 
 production of the evil principle, and were extinguished without the 
 respect of a new life. They treated with the utmost contempt all 
 the books of the Old Testament, but expressed a high degree of ven- 
 eration for the New." Speaking of the Waldenses, p. 332, Mosheirn 
 says, " They committed the government of the church to bishops, 
 presbyters and deacons, but they deemed it absolutely necessary that 
 all these orders should resemble exactly the apostles of the divine 
 Savior, and be like them illiterate, &c. &c. The laity were divided 
 into two classes, one of which contained the perfect and the other the 
 imperfect Christians." Of another sect, the Pasagininns, Mosheim 
 says, p. 333, " They circumcised their followers, and held that the lavr 
 of Moses, in every thing but sacrifice, was obligatory upon Chris-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 81 
 
 Vans." What the same Protestant historian says of the brethren of 
 the free spirit is too horrid. It is the foulest of the many foul pages 
 he has stained with the history of sects. "They maintained that the 
 believer could not sin, let his conduct be ever so horrible and atro- 
 cious." The celebrated Ziska, not a Roman Catholic inquisitor, but 
 the austere general of the Hussites, another sect of Protestants, fall- 
 ing upon this miserable sect in 1421, "put some to the sword and 
 condemned the rest to the flames." Mosheim, 428. "A sect of fana- 
 tics called Caputiati, infested Moravia and Burgundy, the diocese of 
 Auxerre, and several other parts of France, in all which places they 
 txcited much disturbance among the people. They declared publicly 
 that their purpose was, to level all distinctions, to abrogate magistra- 
 cy, to remove all subordination among mankind, and to restore that 
 primitive liberty, that natural equality, which were the inestimable 
 privileges of the first mortals." Mosheim, p. 333. Luther repeatedly 
 declared that he stood alone, that all antiquity was against him. Here 
 are startling facts and no less startling admissions by sound Protes- 
 tants. Will my friend insult this enlightened assembly by making up a 
 monster-church, a very chimera, of all these sects, and give modern 
 Protestants all the honors present and prospective of being the tail of 
 the beast ? I would counsel him not to dream of doing so, and them 
 to look out for more reputable religious ancestors. 
 
 But the Roman Catholic church has changed at least in discipline. 
 Grant it. And what of that ? Is it not the very nature of discipline that 
 it must be modified by times, places, peculiarities of nations and other 
 circumstances, in order to be adapted to the wants of man in all the 
 varieties of his being ? Truth is unsusceptible of change. Like God 
 it is always the same. But the form of the dress of the clergy, the color 
 of the wine to be used at mass, day's of fasting and abstinence, and 
 of public meetings for prayer and certain unessential rites in the ad- 
 ministration of the sacraments, maybe changed. The constitution of 
 the church should possess this element of good government. She has 
 the power to make these changes, and she has made them as the wants 
 of her children seemed to require. But the doctrine is invariable. 
 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but, of it, not an iota shall change. 
 
 As to the deaths occasioned in the election of a pope, I ask again, 
 what has that to do with the constitutionality of the office ! The pope 
 did not slay those people. According to the gentleman's theory, the 
 president of this union would have to answer for the blood, if any, 
 spilled at his ejection. I am astonished that such arguments should 
 be repeated. I can say with certainty of my venerable predecessor 
 that he would not have pursued the course, he did, if the story be 
 true, if he had had reason to believe the individuals had never been 
 baptized and if any two or more young people will come to me, who 
 have been rightly baptized in Protestant communions, I warrant them. 
 If there be no other obstacles, they shall be quickly bound together in 
 the indissoluble bonds of matrimony. 
 
 I am perfectly willing to revert to the point of the supremacy of St 
 Peter and the continuance of his high authority in his successors, for it 
 is a cardinal doctrine. It solves a thousand lesser points of difficulty 
 and I am happy to argue it again from the New Testament, from 
 church history, from reason. I have already quoted scripture for th.i 
 dogma of the supremacy of Peter ; ' upon this rock will I l>v>iia my 
 church." My friend does not like to approach that rock, lie take* 
 
 6
 
 82 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 care to keep shy of it. I also quoted "feed my lambs, feed my 
 sheep" " To thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven," 
 *' Blessed art thou, Simon," and " when thou art anointed confirm thy 
 brethren," &c. All these texts, and more, did I quote, and the gentle- 
 man has had my authority before him. I shall now strengthen my 
 quotation from the fathers, adducing overwhelming facts to prove that 
 Peter was bishop of Rome and that the bishops of that see have EVER 
 been regarded in the Catholic church as his successors. Many of. my 
 hearers may suppose that this matter is buried in the night of time- 
 that history is either silent, or not sufficiently clear upon it. But 
 when they hear the splendid testimonies I am going to adduce, they 
 will change their minds on this subject, and confess that, from time 
 immemorial, in the very earliest ages, the church was precisely the 
 same, in its faith, its sacraments, its hierarchy, its clergy, &c. &c. 
 that the Catholic church is at the present day. (Here bishop Purcell 
 held up the map of the succession of popes from the first, Peter him- 
 Belf, down to the present pontiff, Gregory XVI. ; the names of all the 
 most eminent men in the church ; the date of the establishment of the 
 gospel in the various countries of the world, the origin and authors of 
 the various heresies and schisms, their condemnation by general coun- 
 cils, or synods, &c. &c.) let any other exhibit such an array ! 
 
 Christ Jesus said to his disciples " go, teach all nations.'* They 
 went ! they preached every where, and the world believed ! before 
 their death they ordained others whose names are here faithfully re- 
 corded. Here is the ecclesiastical history of Eusebius, and according 
 to the pun upon his name (you see by us) you will see by him whav 
 a flood of light irradiates this subject. Eusebius wrote in the 4tL 
 century, and to remove all suspicion I bring before you the translation 
 of his history by a Protestant minister. C. F. Cruse, A. M. Assistant 
 Professor of the university of Pennsylvania, 2d. edition, revised and 
 corrected by the author. [The reading was interrupted by the half 
 hour's expiring.*] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 Is the original Greek of Irenaeus extant ? [The bishop intimates, 
 * .A 7 o.'] Of what authority, then, is the version from which he reads? 
 I have never read in Irenaeus nor seen quoted from him a warrant for 
 the assumption that Peter was ever bishop of Rome? But of this 
 again- 
 After raising such a dust as the gentleman has about Phocas and 
 Gregory, it has become necessary for me to re-state my argument. 
 
 Gregory the great wrote to Mauritius, requesting him to induce 
 John, bishop of Constantinople, to give up his claim to the title of 
 universal father. Mauritius would not do it. Gregory the great, is 
 supposed by all antiquity to have harbored a grudere, or bad feeling 
 towards Mauritius, because of this ; and therefore his exultation at 
 his death, and his easy recognition of the pretensions of his murderer, 
 which acquiescence, on his part, secured the compliance of Phocas 
 with the wishes of Gregory, and secured to his successors the title of 
 ID versal patriarch, or pope 
 
 ; Bishop PURCELL here observed, that Phocas was not the murderer 
 oi Mauritius.] 
 
 * The extract referred to will be found in a subsequent speech.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. {S3 
 
 Very well, I have the authority of Gibbon for my assertion not 
 for saying that he killed him by his own hands : but by his authority, 
 as he lays to Phocas the blood of Mauritius and his seven children, 
 on the principle, quifacit per alterum, facit per se. He does himself 
 what he does by an other. The said Phocas did afterwards, Barronius 
 being a faithful witness, give the title of universal bishop to Boniface, 
 Gregory's successor, and who can infer any thing else from all the 
 circumstances, than I have done 1 ! 
 
 I thought the gentleman was about to produce authority to prove 
 that Sylvester did call the council of Nice. This, I again assert he 
 cannot do. If he think he can, let him attempt it, and we will show 
 tie cannot. We, however, do assert on the authority of Eusebius, and 
 all ancient history, that Constantino the great did call the council of 
 Nice ; and we affirm on equal authority, that the pope's legate did not 
 preside in that council. Whether Hosios did is problematical. It is 
 inferred from the fact of his being present : but there Is no historic 
 authority for it. But all this is very subordinate and of little value. 
 The whole question rests upon the inquiry, What office had Peter ? 
 What was his ecclesiastical power and patronage 1 Was Peter the 
 prince of the apostles? Was he made the vicar of Christ t Ay, this 
 is the question ! It requires explicit nay, positive scripture authori- 
 ty where is it 1 
 
 The gentleman offers several passages to this point. I shall exa^ 
 mine the prominent texts, and begin with the 16th chapter of Mat- 
 thew. I read from Griesbach's Greek Testament. In this chapter, 
 Christ asks his disciples the question, " Who do men say that I am ?" 
 and afterwards asks them, " But who say ye that I am *" and Peter 
 answered : " Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God ;" " and 
 Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed are you, Simon Barjona, 
 for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father, who 
 is in heaven : and I say also to you, that you are Peter, and upon this 
 rock I will build my congregation and the gates of hades shall not 
 prevail against it." Matth. xvi. 13 18. 
 
 " Upon this rock :" was Peter this rock * The words sound much 
 alike, (Petros and Peira). Let us examine the passage. One of the 
 internal evidences of the truth of the apostolic writings fs, that each 
 writer has something peculiar to himself. So has every speaker and 
 teacher, that has appeared amongst men. Jesus Christ himself had 
 his peculiar characteristics. One of his peculiarities most clearly 
 marked by the four evangelists is, that he consecrated every scene 
 and circumstance and topic of conversation to religion or morality. A 
 few examples, out of many that might be given, must suffice. When 
 standing by the sea of Galilee, he says to the fishermen, who were 
 easting their nets into the sea: "follow me, and I will make you 
 Jishtrs of men." At the well of Samaria, ho says to a Samaritan w;im- 
 an, from whom he asked a drink *' Whoever shall drirk of this wa- 
 ter shall thirst again ; but whoever drinks of the watei that I shall 
 give him, shall never thirst: but it shall be in him a well of v. 'cr 
 springing up to eternal life." While with his disciples in the 
 temple, and seeing the sheep going up to be sacrificed, he says : " My 
 sheep hear my voice, and they follow me ;" and he speaks of himsnll 
 as the true shepherd, who lays down his life for his sheep. His dis 
 ciples having forgotten to take bread, when embarking on the !-.:. 
 and when talking about it, he took occasion to say : " Beware o> th'
 
 8-1 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 leaven of the Pharisees." When on Mount Olivet, among the vines 
 and olives, he says, " I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine- 
 dresser." And when .looking at the temple, he says : "Destroy tins 
 temple, and I will build it in three days." So in the passage before 
 us. He asks his disciples an all important question, in rep'y to which, 
 one of them who happens to be named Peter, utters the ^reat truih, 
 upon which he is to found his church forever : " THOU ART THE CHKI.-T, 
 (THE MESSIAH), THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD." Jesus turns to him 
 and says : " Thou art stone, and upon this rock (on this great truth 
 vhich flesh and blood has not revealed to thee), I will build n ; y 
 church." 
 
 Ei <n> rirrgiC) utt rri TXVT>I T imf* " ei su Pefros, kai epi tuute te petra" 
 You are Peter and upon this pefra,' strikes the ear of a Grecian as 
 ' thou art stone and upon this rock,' strikes the ear of an English man ; 
 and as we have seen is a part of the Savior's peculiarity. 
 
 The construction of language requires that the word " fA;V should 
 refer to something antecedent different from Ihnu, or you. They are 
 different in person and in case. But not only does the Savior's peculiar 
 characteristics, and the change of person from " fhou" the personal, 
 to this the demonstrative, fix the sense : but other considerations of 
 
 freat moment, forbid any other interpretation. For let me ask. why 
 id Je>' T propound the question to his apostles why did he elici 4 
 from them so great a truth, if in the solemn declaration which imme 
 diately follu-vs, he meant to pass by that truth and allude to Petei 
 alone. This would be a solecism nnprecedented acasf unparalleled 
 The whole authority of the Christian religion and all its excellency is 
 embraced in the radical ideas which had been for the first time pro- 
 nounced by the lips of man. There are, indeed, but three cardinal 
 ideas in all Christian doctrine : for there can be but three cardinal 
 ideas about any being. Two of these are distinctly embodied in Pe- 
 ter's confession of faith. The whole three are, 1st the person, 2nd 
 the otEce, and 3rd the character of Christ. Beyond these person 
 office and character, what conception can mortals have of our Redeemer 1 
 Peter mouthed of these, the two which gave value to the third The 
 person and the mission of Jesus. He was the first mortal who, dis- 
 tinctly and intelligibly avowed the faith, in the person and mission of 
 Jesus the Nazarene, upon which the empire of the ransomed race 
 shall stand forever. This is the good confession spoken by Jesus 
 himself at the hazard of his life, before Pontius Pilate, of which 
 Paul speaks in Inns of the highest admiration. 
 
 This great truth deservedly stands forward under the bold meta- 
 phor of the Rock. But still more creditable to this truth, not " flesh 
 and blood," but the Heavenly Father first uttered it from Heaven. On 
 the banks of the Jordan, when Jesus had honored his Father in his 
 baptism, his Father honored him ; and was it not worthy to be honor- 
 ed by proclaiming it from the opening sky, " This is my Son, the be- 
 loved in whom I delight," while the descending Dove marked him 
 out ? A Pagan poet said, 
 
 " Xcv. r introduce a (iod unless upon an occasion worthy of him:"* 
 
 And who feels not the propriety of such an introduction here ; for 
 when first spoken, no angel in heaven, nor man on earth, could intro- 
 duce the Messiah, in his proper person, but his own Father. Nov>, 
 
 * Nee Deus mtersit nisi ciignus vkidice nodus- -Incident. //or.
 
 EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 85 
 
 because Peter was the first to utter it, Jesus says to him : " I will give 
 to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall 
 bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose 
 on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 
 
 What a controversy there has been about these keys. Jesus gave 
 them to Peter alone not to him, his heirs, and successors forever ! I 
 was denoted as heterodox a few years since, because I alleged that 
 the opening of the reign or kingdom of heaven, by Peter to Jews and 
 Gentiles, was the true exposition of the keys. But I am glad to see 
 this view promulged now from various reputable sources, even from 
 Trinity College, Dublin. Peter opened the kingdom of heaven on 
 the day of Pentecost, and by divulging a secret never told to that day, 
 viz. " Let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has 
 made that Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." This 
 annunciation of the coronation, or Christing, that is anointing of Je- 
 sus king and governor of the universe, was a new revelation made on 
 the Pentecostian morn by Peter. He declared remission on that day 
 to 3000 souls, and introduced them into the kingdom of the Messiah 
 Again, when it pleased God to visit the Gentiles in the family of 
 Cornelius, a Roman centurion; an angel sent from heaven, command- 
 ed him to send for Peter to Joppa to come and tell him and his rela- 
 tions "words by which himself and his friends might be saved." He 
 did so. He sent, and Peter came. Why thus call upon Peterl Be- 
 cause Christ's gifts are without repentance. He had given him the 
 keys. He therefore must open the two-leaved gate, and introduce 
 both Jews and Gentiles into the kingdom. This being once done, 
 needs not to be repeated. The gates of heaven have not since been 
 locked. There is no more use for the keys. Peter has. them yet. 
 He took them to heaven with him. He did not will them to any heir 
 or successor. The popes are fighting for shadows. Heaven never 
 trusted such gentry with the keys. They might take into their heads 
 to lock the heretics out. I thank God that he gave them to Peter, 
 that Peter opened the gates of the kingdom of heaven to us all, and 
 that as the popes cannot shut them, we do not need them a second 
 time. Peter will guard them, till he who has the key of David, who 
 opens and none can shut, will appear a second time. Thus we dis- 
 pose rationally, and I think scripturally, of this grand text. 
 
 The next text upon which confidence is placed by my opponent, is 
 where Christ says to Peter, " Feed my sheep, feed my lambs." 
 Language has no meaning but from the context. Every word serves 
 to fix the meaning of its contextural associates. We must read the 
 21st chapter of John's Testimony, from the beginning, if we would 
 correctly understand this passage. The facts are: Peter and some 
 of his brethren had returned to Galilee, disconcerted and overwhelm- 
 ed with the events of the day. They felt themselves destitute, forsa 
 ken, and in need. While their master was with them he provided 
 for them in some way. He could say, when I sent you without scrip 
 or staff or money, did you lack any thing 1 They answered, no. But 
 he was gone, and they knew not what to do. In this distress, Peter 
 says " I am going a fishing," and the rest accompany him : but they 
 toiled all night and caught nothing. In the morning they see the Sa- 
 vior walking on the shore ; they know him not. He says to thorn, 
 " Children, have you any meat?" They answer,"no." He tells them 
 \o cast on the other side of the bark. They do so and take a larg* 
 H
 
 86 DKBATE Oy THE 
 
 number of fish. Peter, when he knew it \vis the Lord, girt his nsh 
 erman's garment around him, leaped into the lake, and swam ashore. 
 They dine together, arid after they had eaten to satiety, Jesus says to 
 Peter, ".Do you lave me more than these ?" 
 
 My construction of these words is, "Do you love me more than 
 these fish, or these victuals." He then says to Peter, " Feed my 
 lambs :" and the fact before him and all the circumstances say, I will 
 f(ed you. 
 
 The bishop's construction is, "Do you love me more than these dis- 
 ciples love me'?" But how could Peter answer such a question! 
 Was he omniscient to know how much his companions loved his mas- 
 ter. In that case he would hive said, "Lord I love thee, but I do not 
 know how much my brethren love thee ; they also love thee, but I 
 know not whether I love thee more than they do." But suppose he 
 could have known, then I ask, was it comely to ask so invidious a 
 question? Would not they have felt themselves disparaged, if Peter 
 had said, "Yes Lord, I love thee more than all my fellow apostles love 
 thee !!!" 
 
 Peter had erred. He had become discontented had forgotten his 
 duty to his master, and had betaken himself to his former occupation 
 of fishing, and induced the rest to join him. Christ asks him sol- 
 emnly, " Do you love me more than these fish, these boats, nets, ap- 
 paratus, or these victuals, this worldly employment? if so, cease to 
 spend your time in providing food for yourself; but feed my sheep 
 and lambs, and I will provide for you." Besides, he having caught 
 nothing till the Master appeared, was a very striking lesson, which I 
 presume Peter never forgot. I confess, I think the gentleman's inter- 
 pretation of sheep as bishops, and lambs as laity, most singularly ar- 
 bitrary and fantastic, and needs not a grave reply. So we dispose of 
 'he second grand text on which the church of Rome has leaned with 
 so much confidence for so many ages. 
 
 My learned opponent has not yet afforded us evidence for his as- 
 sumption of official supremacy for Petf.r. These texts reach not the 
 case. They dc not institute a new office bestowed on Peter but are 
 tokens of esteem, for reasons personal. Every privilege he received 
 was on account of some personal pre-eminence, not because of an of- 
 fice which he held. The canon law has decreed that a personal priv- 
 ilege doth follow the person and is extinguished with the person. 
 No^y as all the honors vouchsafed Peter were in consequence of hia 
 promptness, courage, penitence, zeal, &c. they never can become the 
 reasons of an hereditary office. His supremacy, or rather superiori 
 ty, or primacy, most naturally arose from his being one of the first, if 
 not ihe first convert the oldest of Christ's disciples ; because he was 
 prompt, decided, courageous, zealous, ardent, and above all, he was 
 a married man, had a wife and family. And although this fact might 
 not comport with his being the fountain of papal authority, it obtain- 
 ed him an honor above John the bachelor, and all the bachelor? of 
 that age !! 
 
 Once more on this subject let me ask, who made a more volunta- 
 ry surrender of himself to his master who more promptly foisook 
 all that he had, than he who, when his Lord asked, will ye also leave 
 me, with more ardor said ; " Lord, to whom shall we go but to tbee 
 for thou hast the words of eternal life ?" Who more courageously 
 in the time of peril, drew his sword to defend his Master'? who, when
 
 HOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 87 
 
 the Savior foretold his own sufferings and indignities, more affection- 
 ately and devotedly exclaimed, in the warmth of his heart, " Lord, it 
 shall not be so done unto thee !" 
 
 It is true that this ardor of disposition, this promptness, this deci- 
 sion of character, sometimes betray their possessor into errors ; yet 
 who will not say, give me the man of energy and decision, and ardor 
 of character ? John was meek as a dove ; he was innocent and amia- 
 ble as a lamb, and the Lord loved him ; but those bold and stern, and 
 manly virtues he wanted, which gave so much interest to the charac- 
 ter of Peter ; and so admirably fitted him to stand forward and fore- 
 most, amongst his colleagues and fellow apostles. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCF.LL rises 
 
 Do you love me more than these fish!! My brethren, if the subject 
 were not too serious, I should call my friend's construction a fish story ! 
 
 Jesus Christ said to Peter, " lovest thou me more than these ?" plus 
 his what, if fish ] (i^i/as) plus quam hos. There is an end to all 
 that argument. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. That is the Latin version. Let us have the Greek. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. The Greek is not more plain, nor will it prove 
 your interpretation less revolting, less contrary to the obvious and 
 more common interpretation of the text. Sad conclusion this, which 
 my learned opponent reserved as his main reliance, for the last hour 
 of the day ! And is it thus that he v proves the church of Rome to be 
 neither catholic, apostolic, nor holy, but an apostacy from the only 
 true, holy and apostolic church of Christ 1 ? He is heartily welcome 
 to the proselytes this argument may gain to his tottering cause. 
 Let learned Protestants now claim their champion's services in the 
 difficult task of interpreting the scripture or let them, as I have pro- 
 phesied they would do, repudiate his advocacy. 
 
 The change of name from Simon to Peter, shows that Christ chose 
 him to be, beyond the other apostles, a rock, or more firm, more con- 
 stant, more immoveable than they and that forever in the confession 
 of his divinity, his real presence with his church and all the other 
 truths he had vouchsafed to reveal to the world. A rock does not 
 melt. The winds may beat and the rains may fall, but the house 
 built upon a rock will stand, not for a few years, but forever. And 
 as the rock, in the physical order loses not its nature, so neither do the 
 promises of Christ lose their efficacy. " Thou art Peter, (or a rock) 
 and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall 
 not prevail against it." Matthew xvi. 18. 
 
 A professor of Andover College has published a volume, I think it 
 is entitled " Elements of Sacred Criticism." I have examined this 
 work, but my memory retains not the author's name, perhaps some 
 of the learned gentlemen present may aid it by the suggestion how- 
 ever, he substantiates my interpretation, or rather that of all ages, by 
 incontrovertible argument. And I confess the American College has, 
 in this instance, a decided superiority, both in sound criticism and or 
 thodoxy, over the " dumb sister," as the English and Scotch universi- 
 ties have invidiously, or facetiously, named Trinity College, Dublin 
 
 There is one plausible difficulty, against the testimony of Peter's 
 having fixed his residence at Home, which the gentleman has overlook- 
 
 1, viz. that Paul does not mention Peter in his epistle to the Romans.
 
 88 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 TD explain this, it is oi^y necessary to observe, Paul wrote A. D. 57. 
 in the reign of Claudius, when Peter was absent from Rome ; and 
 this the illustrious convert of Damascus knew. But why waste time 
 on a subject undisputed for fifteen hundred -years. Pearson, Grotius, 
 Usher, Hammond, Blondel, Scaliger, Casaubon, Dumoulin, Petit, 
 Basnage, all agree that Peter transferred his see to Rome and there 
 suffered martyrdom. 
 
 And here another objection is overruled ; he said there had been 
 contests among the apostles, who should be greatest. He said that 
 if Peter had confessed that he loved him most, a greater controversy 
 would have arisen. But there was good cause to the contrary. An- 
 drew saw him first John reposed on his bosom, &c. for many rea 
 sons, these disputes may have arisen surely such objections after so 
 great a mass of testimony deserved not serious attention. 
 
 I have long ago seen, in a little work written in Philadelphia, the 
 remarks of my friend about the Savior's saying he was the vine, when 
 among the vines, on mount Olivet, &c. &c. This is not therefore orig- 
 inal or new. 
 
 I now take up a connected argument on the apostolicity of the church, 
 for I wish this matter to go before the public in its peculiar strength. 
 I look upon it as the most powerful argument that can be advanced in 
 favor of the Catholic church. I read from Fletcher. His style is good. 
 
 "'Christ Jesus had'called the apostles 'fishers of men,' he had told (hem to 
 * go and preach the gospel to every creature,' assuring them, at the same time, 
 that 'all power was given to him in heaven, and on earth,' and that * himself 
 would be always with them.' Animated by this commission, and these as^uiances, 
 and fired too with the love of God, and an ardent charity for men, these heroic 
 victims of benevolence, did ' go forth and preach.' They preached; and although 
 the world with all its passions, prejudices and superstitions was leagued against 
 them; although its doctrines, which they preached, were repugnant to ali the 
 bad propensities of the heart, and exceeded far the measure of the human under- 
 standing; yet did an immense portion of the public, of the corrupted and 
 the vicious, of the learned and the enlightened, near them, and believe. They 
 preached; and the love of vice was converted into zeal for innocence; prejudice, 
 into the desire of truth: superstition, into the warmth of piety. \ ire itself was 
 exalted into the heroism of sanctity; and every defilement done awav, which cor- 
 ruption had introduced into the sanctuary of the heart. They prtached; and 
 Satan, like a thundei bolt, was hurled from his throne; his temple* razed ; his 
 altars overturned; and idolatry, abashed and trembling, fled from those set nes, 
 which it had so long disgraced by its follies, and infected by its abominations. 
 They preached; and the Universe was changed! The spectacle which thev\hi- 
 biteil was new; the spectacle of exalted virtue and consummate wisdom. .\Un 
 beheld the virtue and it edified them; they listened to the wisdom, and it con 
 vinced them. In this manner did the first apostles of Jesus Chrisc completely 
 realize the figure of the 'jfishers of men,' completely verify the assurance which 
 their divine Master had given them, that himself icovld "be always u-ith them, 
 completely illustrate that passage of St. Paul, in which he says, ' God employ 
 the weak to confound the strong, and the foolith to cottfnte the u-ise.' It is tn 
 call and mission of the apostles, which are the sources of the call and mission 
 of the'ir successors, and it is the successes that attended the preaching of the 
 apostles, that are the proof, not only of the divinity of their mission, but of the 
 mission of those who have replaced, and shall yet replace them till the end of 
 time. In religion, as every thing was originallv apostolical, so every thing to 
 merit veneration, must continue apostolical. According to the definition and 
 import of apostolicity. it is necessary that the church which was founded by the 
 apostles, and the mission also which was imparted to the apostles, should, 
 without destruction, or interruption, have been perpetuated to the age we live 
 in, firm amid revolutions, unchanged amid changes. 
 
 I have said, that to ascertain in the Catholic church this stability of duration, 
 a more positive proof cannot be adduced, than the spectacle of its pastors (who
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 89 
 
 compose a large portion of its members, and whose functions are the most im- 
 portant duties of religion) regularly in each age, succeeding to each other, and 
 transmitting to each, the mission which originally had been inherited from the 
 hands ol the apostles. The only difficulty here, is by the light of evidence to 
 establish these important facts. Well, my brethren, and this is what, without 
 any difficulty, the Catholic exults to do. To do it we need only to consult the 
 records of history ; those records which the Protestant himself considers authentic. 
 The light of history is a testimony, which, beyond the power of reasonable doubt, 
 attests the regular and perennial succession of the Catholic ministry. 
 
 The apostles, whom Christ had -sent, us his Father had sent him ; and with 
 whom, likewise, he had promised to remain all days to the end of the world; in 
 consequence of the above commission and assurance, c.hose for themselves co- 
 operators and successors in their sacred ministry: co-operators, in order to 
 assist them in the government of the churches which their zeal had planted ; 
 tuccessors, to whom, on occasion of their departure from this scene of their 
 labors, they might resign the burden of their functions, and the honor of their 
 nets. Now, fortunately for the cause of religion, we have in the annals of 
 history, and in the writings of the learned, the accounts very carefully preserved, 
 of the resignations, which the apostles made of their functions and sees to their 
 successors; and of the resignations also which their successors' successors made, 
 during a series of ages, to the pastors, who, in long order, have till the present 
 age, continually replaced each other. Among these accounts, that which of all 
 others is the most interesting, and which religion has preserved with the nicest 
 care, is the history of the continuation until to-day, of the apostolic powers which 
 Christ Jesus conferred upon the prince of the apostles, St. Peter. We have, 
 thanks to that Providence, which watches over the church, and which marks its 
 paths with beams of light, we have the proof of this continuation so luminously 
 attested, so evident, that not hostility can contest, nor incredulity doubt it. 
 Important testimony! itself a bright feature in the divinity of the church; a tes- 
 timony, which, proving immediately the apostolicity of the mission of its si-preme 
 pastors, proves also immediately, yet directly, the apostolicity of the mission of 
 all its other pastors. For, if you consult the rolls of history, you will find that 
 with our supreme pastors, the Catholic pastors of every age, and of every nation, 
 were always united in communion; acknowledging their supereminence, and 
 revering their jurisdiction; considering them as the great source, after Christ, 
 of spiritual power, and the centre of spiritual unity. 
 
 There have been several distinguished writers, who, incapable of misrepresen- 
 tation, and possessing the means of knowing the history of the successors of St. 
 Peter, and the order of their succession, have carefully handed down to us, each 
 to his own time, the lists of these illustrious men. The first of these I believe, 
 who is known to have preserved the important catalogue, is St. Irenams. 
 
 After Teriullian, the next who continues the catalogue of St. Peter's succes- 
 sors, is St. Optatus. He brings it down to the time of Siricius; that is, to the 
 year three hundred aud eighty-four. ' In this one chair,' says the saint, speak* 
 ing of the see of Rome, ' sat Peter Jirst, to him succeeded Linus, to him Clement, 
 
 fyc To Liberius succeeded Damasus; to Damasus, Siricius, the present 
 
 ponlijf, with whom we and all the world hold communion. And now,' he adds, 
 addressing himself exultingly to the Donatist, 'and now, do you give an account 
 of the origin of your sees, you, that pretend to call yourselves the Catholic church.' 
 (Contra Panuen.) 
 
 St. Austin is another writer, who had attended to the succession, and has preserv- 
 ed forus, the list of St. Peter's successors; deriving from the longorderof theircon- 
 tinuance, the same conclusions as did Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Optatus. The list 
 which the Saint has communicated, reaches down to his own time, to the pontifi- 
 cate of Innocent the first, in the year four hundred and two, and in its earlier 
 eras it exactlv corresponded with the list which I have alluded to already. 
 ' Come,' says he to the Donatist*, ' come, brethren, if it be that you wish to be in- 
 grafted on the vine. 1 weep to see you as you are; lopped off from its sacred 
 stock. Count i:p the pontiffs in the chair of Peter, and in that order see which 
 succeeded which. This is that Rock, over which, the proud gates of hell cannot 
 prevail.' 
 
 Hence, without the necessity of producing further testimonies, it follows, if 
 men will not contest the authority, or call in question the veracity of some of 
 the fairest characters, that the chnsi'an world reveres: it follows that from the 
 H2 12
 
 90 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 time of St. Peter to the time of Innocent, in the fifth centuiy, there esij.ecl in 
 the see of Rome, an uninterrupted chain of pastors, and a continuation of an 
 apostolic mission. The continuation of that same apostolic mission which Christ 
 Jesus had imparted to St. Peter. Only he, can doubt this, whose incredulity 
 doubts of every thing. 
 
 And has the chain of Roman pastors, for this is now the only point which w* 
 must investigate, been continued and extended from the time of Innocent the 
 first, to the present day; an interval, it is true, extremely long-, and filled up with 
 storms, and changes, and revolutions and great events? Yes, the chain has been 
 continued and extended all this whole length of period ; from Innocent, who 
 consoled the great Chrysostom, under the persecution of an ambitious princess, 
 to Pius the seventh, vgho himself is the heroic victim of the persecution of a re- 
 lentless victor. Indeed, the fait is so obvious, it is not even contested. It is 
 conceded by the met, who are interested to deny it. To be assured of it, you 
 need only to consult the political annals of any considerable state, or to appeal 
 in our historians to the mere tablets of chronology. You will find that all give 
 to pur Roman pontiffs the same line and length of succession, which I hers 
 assign them. Their conduct has been always prominent; their influence alwayi 
 conspicuous. Few were the great events and transactions, in which, eithei 
 from a principle of piety, or sometimes of ambition, they did not bear a part. 
 
 Yes, but if prompted by curiosity, you will give yourselves the trouble to con 
 suit the annals of the church, there you will trace, more distinctly still, the evi 
 dence of the truth, which I am now establishing. There attending to the occur 
 rences of each epoch, you will observe, that the helm which had been confided 
 to the trust of Peter, is with the greatest regularity transferred from hand to 
 hand ; and with pious care, confided to the trust of each successor. You may 
 mark the name, and read the character of each individual, who directed it, the 
 date of the day when it was committed to his guidance; and th* hour, almost, 
 when he resigned. In short, admitting the accuracy of the lists which have been 
 preserved by Irenaeus, Tertullian, &c., you trace in the annals of the church, a 
 clear plain, and incontestible evidence of a Hue of Roman pontiffs, the succes 
 sors of St. Peter, during the long course of above eighteen hundred years. 
 
 If the ancient fathers, in their times, and at the distance only of a few years 
 so triumphantly produced the list of these holy men, evincing by it the divinity 
 of the church, and the apostolicity of the mission of its pastors, and by it confu 
 ting th-? novelty and claims of heresy; if Tertullian, impressed with the force of 
 this argument, victoriously called out to the hosts of innovators, " sheic us any 
 thing like this. Unfold and shew us the origin of your churches; shew us the list 
 of your bishops, in regular order from the days of the apostles, succeeding- to 
 each other;" if he could sav to them, " Who are you? Whence is your origin de- 
 rived? What have you to do in my estate? lam the possessor. Jlfy posses- 
 sionis ancient. I am the heir of the apogtlet:" if he could say all this; and 
 from this, after scarcely the lapse of two centuries and the succession of hardly 
 a dozen pontiffs, demonstrate the apostolicity of the church; with how much 
 more reasoil and with how much more effect, might I, or any other Catholic, 
 demonstrate its apostolicity at present, at present when the continuance of Pe- 
 ter's successors forms a chain, of above eighteen hundred years, and their num- 
 ber fills up a list of above two hundred and fifty pontiffs? Oh! were only a Ter- 
 tullian now, or an Austin, standing in the same situation in which I am placed 
 before you, addressing^ you from this seat of truth and pressing the same argu- 
 ment, vVhich I do to day, upon your attention; and pressing it recommended by 
 the circumstances which I hare just referred to, how the thoughts would g ow, 
 and the words burn, with which they would convey the exultation of these feel- 
 ings to you! How the cause of truth would triumph in their eloquence! With 
 what redoubled enthusiasm would they exclaim, ".let heresy shew any thing- like 
 this?" 1 1 reaJity, if the argument which these great men have employed to 
 prove the apostolicity of the church, proved aught in their times, it certainly 
 proves the same, and a great deal more, at present. 
 
 To the thoughtful ana the philosophic mind, there is much, I have already ob- 
 served, to admire in the stability of the church amid the fluctuation of human 
 things. It is the same in regard to the long continuance of the successors of St. 
 Peter. Wisdom and reason, when they consider it, are struck with wonder ; 
 and piety discovers in it the visible effect of an Almighty superintendance. The 
 lustiiu'.io.u of men soon perish. The modifications of human policy do not long
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 91 
 
 retain their forms. Nothing human is permanent To contemplate, therefore, an 
 order of pontiffs reaching- the whole length of eighteen centuries unchanged, 
 whilst every thing else was changing; uninterrupted, whilst all other institutions 
 were perishing, is a spectacle at once striking, awful, and impressive ; calculat- 
 ed to inspire the protestant himself, if not with the conviction of its divinity, at 
 least with a conviction of its wisdom ; with a respect for its strength ; with a 
 veneration for its antiquity. Let only reason cast a look into the annals of time, 
 or recall to its recollection the events and revolutions, which during the lapse of 
 eighteen centuries, have taken place on the theatre of life. During that interval 
 in every king lorn of the civilized world, every government has changed its form , 
 every dynasty resigned its power ; every empire sunk to ruin. Rome iteelf, dur- 
 ing it, has experienced in particular, all the vicissitudes of human instability : 
 Las been ruled alternately by Consuls, Emperors, Kings and Exarchs : has been 
 taken, plundered, sacked and reduced almost to a heapofashes. In short, during 
 it, every thing that is human and political. the work of the power and ambition, 
 of the wisdom and art of men, has either perished or undergone a variety of al- 
 terations Kingdoms, states, cities, monuments, laws, opinions, customs, here- 
 sies. IVought but the succession of our pontiffs, and the institutions of our holy 
 religion, ^>ave remained unaltered. These alone, amid the general revolution ; 
 amid the storms of war ; the ravages of passion ; the conflicts of heresy, subsist 
 undecayed and unc'.ecaying. They even subsist in spite of all those evils ; 
 though assailed by the violence of persecution ; though combated by the machi- 
 nations of passion ; though attacked bv the artificesof error ; though assaulted by 
 the combined efforts of vice, Satan and the world. Surely prejudice itself will 
 own it, a succession of Pastors thus perpetuated for eighteen centuries, and per- 
 petuated amid such obstacles, is not the effect of chance, nor of earthly policy; 
 not the creation of ambition, northe offspring of worldly wisdom. The only 
 method of accounting rationally for it, is to allow, that it is the result of a divine 
 institution ; and the consequence of that assurance given by our great Redeemer 
 to his apostles, that he would be with them all days, to the end of the world; or 
 in other words, that it is the result and the proof of an apostolic mission. 
 
 From the evidences of the apostolicity of the church of Rome, is inferred the 
 evidence of the npostolicity of the various other Catholic churches, which are 
 disposed throughout the universe. In reality, they are all of them the parts of 
 one whole ; the branches of one tree ; the streams of one fountain ; the rays of 
 one sun. They all form only one communion, whose centre and head is the 
 church of Rome. Of these churches, some were established by the apostles 
 themselves, and their immediate successors ; some acda very considerable part, 
 by the successors of St. Peter, the Roman pontiffs, who in each age have with pi- 
 cus zeal, deputed missionaries to preach the gospel in almost every region of the 
 glooe But in every age, and in every region, the churches that were thus 
 
 Clanted, were only considered as -apostolical, or as portions of the true church, 
 om the evidence of their union with the church of Rome. It is the remark of 
 St. Jerome ; that no bishop was ever acknowledged to be a lawful bishop, 
 except in as much, as he was united in communion with the chair of St. 
 Peter." 
 
 And why may I not adduce as another evidence of the apostolic mission of 
 our pastors, the venerable subsistence of a multitude of other churches, which 
 without having lasted from the age, which saw the apostles live, have still lasted 
 from the ages that are not long subsequent to it 1 This is the case with severa 
 churches in Spain, Italy, France, &c. In Spain, the churches of Toledo, Cordo 
 va, &c. in Italy, those of Milan, Naples, &c. in France, those of Lyons Tours 
 &c. have subsisted from the early ages of Christian fervor ; from those ages which 
 are often denominated apostolical, down to the present period of degeneracy 
 Their annals, more accurately preserved than the annals of civil governments 
 exhibit to our astonished, but gratified reason, a line of pastors during this whole 
 length of ages unbroken and uninterrupted uninjured by the violence of per- 
 secutions, as well as unimpaired by the sunshine of prosperity ; a line of pastors 
 that in canonical succession have till the present day, replaced each other. 
 These are monuments of stability, compared with which profane history has 
 BOthing similar : Protestantism nothing- analogous. These too attest the apostol- 
 icity of the mission of our pastors ; and the apostolicitv consequently of our 
 i_""trch. Ai.d now onte more, let it be recollected, in relation to all these churches, 
 thet their founders, and the successors of their founders, were in communion with
 
 92 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the see of Rome: the former deputed perhaps immediately by it ; the latter ex 
 ulting always in their union with it as the best proof ol the apostolicity ot theii 
 own delegation." 
 
 [ The above quotation was read in parts, in two different speeches ; but it has been 
 thought proper to insert it entire, here.] 
 
 I close here. To-morrow is the sabbath of our God. Let us de- 
 vote the remainder of the day to the preparation of our souls for its 
 holy duties. 
 
 MONDAY, JANUARY 16TH, Half past 9 o'clock, A. M. 
 ME. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 It is a trite and a true observation, that the material universe is re 
 solvable into a very few elementary principles. And not a few of our 
 wisest philosophers suppose that the time may yet come, in"the pro- 
 gress of chemical science,, when material nature will be resolved into 
 some two, or three rudimentary elements. The sciences, too, mental 
 and moral, are all resolvable into a few great cardinal principles. 
 
 The papal empire itself depends also upon a few points, indeed, up- 
 on one great point, and that relates to the office upon which the whole 
 superstructure rests. The most fundamental question is not whether 
 the apostle Peter was invested with the office of pope, or vicar of 
 Christ; but rather whether there ever was such an office at all. On this 
 question we have not proceeded in the most logical manner. I have 
 been compelled to approach it at different times, and by different ave- 
 nues. My opponent has not adverted to the rules of this discussion. 
 I am compelled to lead, and he to follow. He can only lawfully reply 
 to such matter as I introduce. But instead of replying to my argu- 
 ments, already offered, he read you some dissertations upon succession 
 to an office, not yet canvassed and established. This reading of for- 
 eign discussions instead of replying to me is contrary to our rules and 
 most illogical. I hope we shall have no more of it. What was read 
 on Saturday afternoon on the question of succession is clearly irrele- 
 vant. Before we contend about succession, the question is, What is 
 to be succeeded to ? We have had seven presidents, and the succes- 
 sion is indisputable; yet the office depends not upon the seven incum- 
 bents, nor upon their rightful succession ; but upon what is written in 
 the constitution upon the positive and express institution of the office. 
 
 If it is not found in the constitution, succession is of no virtue : 
 however unbroken and orderly it may be, the present incumbent has 
 no power. The grand question then is, Is there in the constitution of 
 the Christian church, in the New Covenant, or last Testament, a chair 
 of primacy, or superintendcncy ? This is the logical and the cardinal 
 question. On this single point rest all the fortunes of the papacy in 
 an enlightened community. I wish all to perceive it, and I will pre- 
 sent it in different forms. The first question is, Has Jesus Christ ap- 
 pointed the office of pope? The second, Who was the first officer? Third, 
 Was there a succession ordained? and fourth, Has that succession been 
 preserved uncorrupt to the present day ? In this way our reason, or 
 common sense, or logic .arranges the matter; and in this way only can 
 it be rationally and scripturally decided. With allnnen of sense, the 
 controversy will hang on this point. A failure here is ruin to the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 93 
 
 cause. If this point cannot be proved, it is as useless to contest oth- 
 ers, as it would be to finish a house that is built upon the ice. Strike 
 off the head and the body perishes. Yet this capital point rests upon 
 an inference ! 
 
 How would an American like to be told that the office of president 
 depended upon an inference ? that there was no provision for it in the 
 constitution that it was inferred from twenty clauses, scattered here 
 and there in as many sections 1 Could it be possible, that the 
 greatest office in this nation the very head of this government, should 
 rest on the construction of these clauses ; that there is no chapter in 
 the constitution, expressly creating the office 1 Yet, this is precisely 
 the case with the pope. The gentleman does not claim for him a po- 
 sitive grant in the New Testament. He must acknowledge that there 
 is no such office distinctly asserted that it depends on the reasonings 
 of fallible men to ferret it out. Here I must expose the nakedness of 
 the land and sweep from the arena the dust of tradition, which blinds 
 the eyes of implicit believers. 
 
 It is said by the Romanists that a belief in the supremacy of the 
 pope is essential to salvation. Boniface VIII. decrees in his canon 
 'aw in the words following: 
 
 " Moreover we declare, and say, and define, and pronounce to every human 
 creature, that it is altogether necessary to salvation to be subject to the Roman 
 pontirt. ' 
 
 It appears, if not pedantic, at least awkward to read Latin to an 
 English audience. However, my learned opponent, so often sets me 
 the example, that he will allow me to quote this important decree : 
 
 " Subcsse Romano Pontifiei. omnis hiimancE creatiirce declaramus, dicimus, 
 definimus, et pronunciamus omnino este necessitate salutis." 
 
 It is then solemnly decreed that a belief in, and submission to, the 
 Roman pontiffis essential to salvation. Ought not, then, his authority 
 to be as clearly pointed out in the Bible as the mission of Jesus 
 Christ! for the person and mission and sacrifice of Christ are to us 
 useless, without faith in the pope. Again, of what use is the Bible, 
 without this belief; and especially, if so important a matter is so ob- 
 scurely expressed in it as to rest upon a mere inference! Does the 
 person and office of Christ depend on a mere inference 1 Is it not as- 
 serted and re-asserted, a hundred times by the voices of all the pro- 
 phets and apostles of both Testaments ? In the Jewish economy, the 
 high Priest was on earth : but in our economy he is in Heaven. There 
 was truth in the type, and there must be truth in the anti-type. Yet 
 every thing concerning that priesthood was positively and expressly 
 ordained. The office, the officer, the succession, and the means of 
 keeping the blood pure. For, No man dare "take that office upon 
 himself, but he that was called of God, as was Aaron." Aaron then 
 was distinctly called to be a high priest. Now we argue that if we 
 had a high priest on earth under our high Priest in heaven, and if salva- 
 tion hang upon obedience to him : it ought to be as clear as that of Aaron. 
 
 But in reference to the Old Testament priesthood, we find every 
 thing distinctly and unequivocally stated, Exodus xxviii. 1. "Take 
 Aaron and his sons from among the children of Israel, that he and they 
 may minister to me in the priest's office." Again, xl. 13. "And thou 
 shah sanctity Aaron and his sons, that he may minister to me in the 
 priest's office; and their anointing shall surely be an everlasting pritst- 
 hood throughout tkeir generations," How often in the books of the
 
 94 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 law, and in the subsequent history of the Jews, as it is in 1 Chron. 23d 
 and 24th chapters, do we find the unequivocal institution and records 
 of this priesthood ! 
 
 But it is not only in a distinct and unequivocal call and consecra- 
 tion, but in the subsequent care evinced in sustaining this appoint- 
 ment, that we see the necessity of such a positive and express cove- 
 nant and understanding. The rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, 
 and the destruction, by a miraculous interposition, of themselves and 
 of their company, together with two hundred and fifty princes of Israel, 
 for seeking to invade the office, is another solemn attestation of the 
 divine erection of this office, and the certain call of Aaron's family. 
 
 Again: The appointment of God to select an almond rod for each 
 tribe, and to inscribe the name of each of the twelve families upon 
 those rods, every tribe's name upon a separate rod, and the miraculous 
 budding and blossoming and almond-bearing of Aaron's rod, in the 
 course of a single night, was another settlement of this matter, so spe- 
 cial, supernatural, and divine, as to put it. to rest forever. Here we 
 ought to read in full the 16th and 17th chapters of Numbers ; but we 
 have only time to refer to them. Thus by a positive call, and two 
 splendid and awfully glorious miracles, was the office of the high 
 priesthood established in Israel. 
 
 And may we not ask, that if as Boniface has defined, and all Roman 
 Catholics believe, 'that there is no salvation, but in the admission af the 
 divine call of the popes of Rome? ought not the institution of a new 
 order to be as clearly pointed out, and sustained in the new law, as it 
 was in the old? ! 
 
 But my opponent has to concede that there is no such positive or 
 express institution of St. Peter's chair, nor of his call and consecra- 
 tion, nor any law of succession whatever in the New Testament ; and 
 that it rests wholly upon inference. Now, if no man can take this 
 honor upon himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron, where 
 is the office and the authority of the popes of Rome 1 ! There is for it 
 no such call. Or will my friend say that mere inference or assump- 
 tion is a proper foundation for such a call and office? 
 
 On Saturday evening I began the examination of the premises from 
 which is inferred this high and responsible office ; and so far, I think, 
 proved that he cannot eren find a good logical inference for it. In 
 Matthew xvi. we found no support to the idea that the church of Jesus 
 Christ was to be built upon the flesh and blood and bones of Peter; 
 neither upon his person nor office. We saw that every rule of gram- 
 mar that the construction of language forbade such a transition as 
 was necessary to the hypothesis. To have addressed Peter in the 
 second and third persons as both present and absent, in the same 
 breath, is wholly unprecedented. To have spoken of him, and to 
 him at one time, in one period, and on a matter so cardinal as making 
 him the foundation of his church, is not to be admitted on the autho- 
 rity of mere assumption, without a single case parallel in all holy writ 
 to lay along side of it. 
 
 The case in no rational point of view will endure such violence. 
 Jesus asked for a confession, Peter gave it. Tht conversation turned 
 upon that confession, and not upon Peter. The comment ought to 
 have been upon the text, and not upon him that gave it. It was upon 
 the text and not unon the preacher.
 
 EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 95 
 
 We Protestants say that the church is founded on the thing con- 
 fessed. Christ himself is, indeed, the rock ; hut figuratively the trutlv 
 which represents him. I was struck with astonishment when I heard 
 my worthy opponent say, that Peter was the rock, and Christ only a 
 stone in this spiritual temple ! 
 
 [BISHOP PURCELL here explained, ' that he had said that Christ was 
 the corner stone which was to strengthen and give consistency to the 
 foundation; and Peter the rock which was to strengthen and give con- 
 sistency to the superstructure.'] Mr. CAMPBELL proceeded : 
 
 Christ the corner stone! and Peter the rock ! ! Does this help the 
 matter! 
 
 What say^s 1 Cor. iii. "Other foundation can no man lay than what 
 is already laid," very Peter ! J 1 No, indeed; hut Jesus Christ him- 
 self is the corner stone, the rock, the foundation ? Then Peter is but 
 a stone, as his name imports. But there were eleven other stones of 
 equal value : for, says the Holy Spirit, the church is built upon the 
 foundation of the apostles all the apostles; and of the prophets too! 
 When, then, all these stones are at the foundation, and Christ the chief 
 corner, where is the room for Peter the rock ? 
 
 But, we have other expressions that illustrate Matthew xvi. Look- 
 ing at the temple one day, Jesus said to those before him, " Destroy 
 this temple and I will build it again in three days." Were the per- 
 sons he addressed in the second person and the temple the same thing ]_ 
 Here, then, are the persons addressed, the subject of conversation, and 
 himself you, (the addressed,) and the temple, (himself.) So have 
 we Peter, his confession, and Christ the builder of the church, in the 
 passage before us. They understood by his question that he spoke of 
 hid body; but his body was not himself: neither was the confession 
 of Peter, Christ himself; nor Peter's person, the rock of ages. Surely 
 the papal rock is not as our rock ; our enemies themselves being judges. 
 
 But petros and petra sound alike, and therefore, though of different 
 gender, case, and person, they must he identical ! Of the person and 
 case we have said enough, (for my friend has not attempted to refute 
 it.) Of the difference in gender, he will tell us, that it was written in 
 Syriac, and that the word signifying stone in that language is of no 
 
 ender. This is gratuitous. He can produce no copy of Matthew in 
 yriac; the only authentic copy we have is that before me. It is the 
 Greek version of Matthew : " Thou" is in the second person, and "this" 
 is in the third. Petros is masculine and Petra is feminine. It is impos- 
 sible for language to do more to prevent mistake; and he that would 
 attempt to explain away these three gender, person and case, is not 
 subject to the laws of language, neither indeed can be. 
 
 It is commonly observed that Peter seems not to have been any bet- 
 ter qualified after than before the confession, to he the foundation of the 
 church : for he is reproved for his worldly notions of the Messiah and 
 his kingdom, in these words ; " Get thee behind me, adversary} for thou 
 relishest not the things of God ; but the things of man." The word sa- 
 tanas signifies adversary. Jesus calls, him not ho satanas, Satan ; but 
 simply opponent. Stand aside thou who opposes! me in this matter : 
 .Thou dost not understand these divine things. 
 
 There is another of the bishop's texts to which, out of courtesy, 1 
 must allude: " Peter, when thou art converted, confirm your breth- 
 ren." The meaning of which is, Peter, as you have experienced the
 
 9b DEBATE ON THE 
 
 bitterness 01 repentance, you can hereafter comfort and strengthen your 
 penitent hrethren. My learned opponent interprets it thus ; Peter, 
 when you are converted, you shall be my vicar and prince of the apostles ! 
 
 John xxi, "Lovest thou me more than these," is again before us. The 
 bishop will have these to refer to the apostles. My audience will re- 
 member that when I read the Greek of the passage, he quoted Latin 
 (plus quam hos,} as if to correct the Greek by deciding that these was 
 masculine and not neuter, the very point in debate- that when he was 
 challenged to sustain his Latin comment by the original, he immedi- 
 ately after taking up the Greek Testament laid it down. 
 
 It will elucidate this passage to read the whole in the original, verse 
 13th. 
 
 Ef%vrau o 'lia-sy? KXI KnuSdni Til ogroir, *} <fi<JW/y nirttf, XXITO i-^oftof oftstu;. 
 In reference to which Jesus says, Ziu&v la>t*, a.yy.ira.t (*.t irKtin Tcvrter^ 
 The grammatical antecedent to TCI/TV must be i-cy &grov and TO 
 c^Mfi^, which makes it neuter. Now, I ask, on what grammatical 
 authority does the Vulgate convert these into the masculine ? 
 Ought a translator to judge for his readers, or ought he to give 
 the same latitude of inquiry to his readers which the original gives to 
 him. The latter, certainly. So decides the highest tribunal in the 
 commonwealth of letters. And neither my opponent nor his Latin 
 nor Greek supplements, nor interpolations, have any right to make that 
 masculine, which the original makes at least doubtful, himself being 
 judge : and according to my judgment, on the laws of language, cer- 
 tainly, neuter. 
 
 On what precarious, inferential and illogical grounds rest the proud 
 aspirations of the pope of Rome ! He out-rivals the proudest mon- 
 archs of the east. He that styles himself " brother to the sun and 
 moon," and " disposer of Asiatic crowns," is modest compared with 
 the vicar, who claims dominion over angels and saints in heaven 
 over all the spirits in the wide domains of purgatory ; who styles him- 
 self, or permits others to address him as a God on earth as " his holi- 
 ness, Lord God the Pope," as holding the keys of heaven and hell, and 
 the two swords of ecclesiastic and political justice ; and all this mighty 
 empire resting upon the words, "petra," " strengthen thy brethren," 
 " lovest thou me more than these," "feed my sheep and lambs," &c. 
 Was there ever so proud a superstructure reared upon so many and 
 so baseless assumptions 1! 
 
 The gentleman quoted yet another verse from the Vulgate ; 1 Pet 
 v. 3, " Be not lords over the clergy." Hence he infers, the apostle Pe- 
 ter had the clergy under him. But the apostle says, " not as lords 
 ver the clergy," there then, was a plurality of lords, not one su- 
 preme head ! Although this passage was quoted at an early period 
 of the discussion, by my opponent, I reserved my remarks upon it till 
 now. It reads in the original and the common version, " not as lords 
 over the heritage, lot, or people of the Lord." KAirgsc, the word here 
 translated clergy, occurs twelve times in the New Testament, and in 
 nine of these it is translated lot. In Acts, xxvi. 18, and in Col. i. 12, 
 it is translated inheritance, and in the passage before us, it may be 
 either lot, heritage, or inheritance . but clergy is most whimsical and 
 arnitrary. As well might the Vulgate have said to Simon Magus, 
 *' thou hast neither part nor clergy in this matter:" or, in Col. i. 12, 
 " he has fitted us to partake in the clergy of the saints." In both
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 97 
 
 the word is the same in the original. These shew by what 
 a stretch of power and arbitrary dominion over words, these critics 
 would bring the clergy or Christian ministry under the bishop of Rome. 
 So fades from the face of reason the whole evidence from the Bible, in 
 favor of the grand office without which the papacy is as mere a fig- 
 ment of fancy as the visions of*the prophet of Islamism ! 
 
 Having found the office of vicar, or general superintendant of th* 
 hole church, the universal episcopate of Rome, without express or 
 pigitive precept or institution, and without even inferential probability; 
 I proceed in the third place to show still farther, that it is anti-scrip- 
 <u/a/, not only in theory, but in the facts recorded. 
 
 I have said that the first church was the Hebrew. It was catholic 
 nnd apostolic : for all the twelve apostles were in it. This cannot 
 be said of any other society that ever existed. The whole college of 
 the twelve apostles had their seat in Jerusalem. The Samaritan 
 daughter of Jerusalem was the first fruits out of Judea. Philip, one of 
 the apostles' evangelists, carried the word of the Lord to Samaria. 
 They had believed, repented, and been baptized. News is brought to Je- 
 rusalem. The cardinals all meet. The twelve apostles are in session. 
 But where is Peter's chair ! The prince of the apostles, the vicar of 
 Christ, had not yet learned his duty, and his brethren had not yet 
 learned to call him pope. The fact is, they made a legate of him. 
 They sent two legates to Jerusalem. And who do you think were the 
 two first apostolic legates ! They, indeed sent pope Peter and his broth- 
 er John !! Thus it is clear that the notion of Peter's universal episco- 
 pacy, and princeship of the apostles was not yet conceived. This fact 
 speaks a volume against the pretended successors of Peter. 
 
 But again, and still more humiliating to his successors, when Peter 
 had introduced the Gentiles into the church, the brethren of the circum- 
 cision rose up en masse against him, not regarding him as having the 
 least supreme authority m the case. " How," do you ask, "did Peter 
 receive the complaints from all quarters for his daring to innovate, by 
 mere authority on all the holy brethren 1 Did he say, I am Christ's 
 vicar chief of the apostles, the supreme head of the church I hold 
 the keys of the kingdom of heaven ; and do you demand of me, why / 
 should act thus"?! Never thus, spoke Peter. He did not assume any 
 thing : but tells the matter over, and shows how God had opened the 
 door of faith to the Gentiles ; " and what was I," he reasons, " that I 
 should withstand God ?" Ought I to have stood up and said to the 
 Gentiles, you shall not enter the kingdom of the Messiah, nor be en- 
 rolled amongst the children of God! In the llth chapter of the Acts 
 of the apostles, we have a full exposition of the groundless pietension 
 of his successors, in the details of this case from the lips of the apos- 
 tle himself. A third instance of the entire absence of all such vicars 
 in the primitive church, appears in the " council held at Jerusalem." 
 So the bishop's party designate it, and for the sake of argument, let it 
 be a council. 
 
 It was not called by Peter the pope, nor was it a council of the 
 whole world ; but of two or three churches. Well, they met. Wlio 
 was president! Neither the pope nor his legates. Peter is not in the 
 chair; but on the floor. He spoke first, as he was always accustomed 
 to do: but did he dictate the course to be pursued! No. Had he the 
 honor of drafting or submitting the decrees ! He had not. He arose 
 I 7
 
 9S DEHATE OUt THE 
 
 and spoke to the assembly, and told what God had done by him among 
 the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas, also on the floor, then stated what 
 the Lord had done by them among the Gentiles, and when they had 
 done, James arose to present his views. "My sentence as" says he, 
 " that we ought to write so and so to the Gentiles." In his views they 
 all acquiesced. They do not say in this letter, "it seemed good to 
 Peter!" No, "it seemed good to MS." Indeed, if -any was pope in 
 this assembly, it was James : not Peter. All the popes of Home as 
 successors of Peter, are therefore not only unseriptural ; but anti-scrip- 
 tural. 
 
 Again, and stronger still. In Gal. 1st chap, we are told of a cer- 
 tain controversy between Paul and Peter, not about faith, nor moral- 
 ity; but about expediency. Paul never would have related this mat- 
 ter : but in self-defence. There were some in Galatia that regarded 
 him as a sub-apostle, not equal to those who had been companions ot 
 the Lord duriuig his public ministry. In self-defence, he affirms that, 
 in conversations with the pillars, as some called Peter and James and 
 John three of the oldest apostles he did not receive a new idea. So 
 far from being dependant on Peter, or inferior to him, he was the only 
 apostle in those days with whom Paul had the slightest dissension : 
 "for," says he, "after Peter came down to Jlntioch I withstood him to 
 the face,/or he was to be blamed.- for before certain persons came from 
 James, he did eat with the Gentiles ; but when they were come, he 
 withdrew and separated from them, fearing the Jews. And the other 
 Jews dissembled likewise with him, insomuch that Barnabas was car- 
 ried away with their dissimulation. Seeing that they walked not up- 
 rightly, I said to Peter in the presence of them all ; " Why do you com- 
 pel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews 1" Thus Paul reproved the 
 head of the church, his father, pope Peter, in the presence of all the 
 brethren for a sort of temporizing expediency in its practical details, 
 squinting at dissimulation. All these facts show how contrary to the 
 doctrine and facts of the sacred writings are the assumptions of 
 popery. 
 
 A word or two from the last will and testament of the apostle Peter, 
 Being far advanced in years he writes two letters containing his last 
 advice to the brethren. In the first he associates himself with the el 
 ders of the Jewish church, and claims no other eminence than that of 
 fellow elder, and as such exhorts them to feed the flock of God wil- 
 lingly. In the second letter, he wills, that the brethren addressed, 
 "should, after his decease, be mindful of the commandment of us, the 
 apostles of the Lord and Savior." Thus, with his last words, he dis- 
 claims every attribute of official supremacy. He is known only in the 
 New Testament, as an apostle, either from his own words simply, 01 
 those of Paul, or from any other circumstance, which in the history cf 
 the church is recorded from Pentecost to the end of the New Testa- 
 ment. I shall leave other scriptures for the calls of my opponent, and 
 the occasion. 
 
 I now proceed to show that as there is no foundation in scripture, 
 so there is none in fact, nor in reason, for the papal supremacy. I 
 have shown, that it wants positive proof that it is built on inference- 
 that this inference is not found in the premises and that other scrip- 
 tural facts and documents preclude the possibility of such an inference 
 
 We have emphatically stated, that the first point is to establish the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 99 
 
 off ce. If there is no office, there can he no officer. But my friend the 
 bishop's system is still more at fault, for if he could prove (what he 
 never will) that there was such an office; still he has to prove thai 
 Peter was the first officer. That Pefer was that officer is as cardinal 
 a point to his system, as that the papal office had been set up by Jesus 
 Christ. The Scriptures are perfectly mute on that point! What says 
 church history ? It is only inferred that Peter ever was in Rome! It 
 is only probable. Barronius only says it is probable he had a see 
 there : he does not moot that question. There is not a single word in 
 til antiquity which positively asserts that Peter was ever bishop of Rome, 
 or was ever in Rome. The gentleman quoted Ireneeus. Can he quote 
 the original? I affirm that it does not exist: and even the copy from 
 which he read was not found for centuries after Irenaeus wrote. But 
 admit it to be genuine. I affirm that Irenaeus no where asserts, that Pe- 
 ter was bishop of Rome. If neither he nor his contemporaries assert it, 
 what is the authority of Grotius, or Casaubon, or Usher or such mod- 
 ern authors 1 ! It proves nothing. The assertion of my present opponent 
 is worth as much as that of any man who has lived fora thousand years, 
 to prove an event which happened a thousand years before he was 
 born. 
 
 The bishop and his friend the editor of the Catholic paper and at 
 least fifteen hundred citizens heard me lecture when last in the city ; 
 and yet, so faithless is tradition, that I have seen it stated in a print 
 of this city in a Roman Catholic Telegraph, too, that I had asserted 
 as a proposition to be proved, " that Charles Carroll, of Carrollton wa 
 not a Roman Catholic .'" words that never fell from my lips or pen. 
 If then tradition cannot be kept here for a single week, in this day of 
 light and knowledge, and good faith, how can you respect and believe 
 traditions descending through ages of darkness and superstition ? 
 why bring up men from the remote corners of the earth, who lived 
 more than a century after the time in question, to tell us their hear-says 
 or the rumors of past ages. 
 
 I have affirmed, that there is no docuVnent to prove that Peter was 
 ever bishop of Rome. My friend disputes this point ; we are then at 
 issue, and this is a vital point. Let him then meet me upon it, and 
 decide the controversy. Irenaeus says not, that either Peter or Paul 
 was bishop of Rome ; but, " over that church that was planted by Peter 
 and Paul sat Linus." True, the inference is, that Peter and Paul must 
 have been at Rome; if not, how believe that the church was planted 
 by them ? But the church at Rome never was planted by them. The 
 faith of the Romans was known through all. the earth when Paul wrote 
 his letter to them, and at that time he had never been in that city. The 
 proposition is therefore not true; and Irenaeus, if he wrote so, wrota 
 on erroneous tradition, and is not worthy of credit. Admit, for argu- 
 ment sake, that we take the testimony of the fathers on the succession, 
 which are we to believe? They tell us stories irreconcilably dif- 
 ferent. The gentleman triumphantly held up a map, as if there were 
 some hidden virtue in it, and said he could speak upon it till dooms- 
 day. I have also a map here, which will prove that his map can 
 prove nothing without a tongue in it; and if holding up this map be- 
 fore you could convince you, I should soon carry the point. Bellar- 
 mine admits, that the fathers contradict each other on the succession of 
 the fii?t popes. A phalanx of authors can be adduced to prove that the
 
 100 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 fathers are not unanimous upon any one point of importance, on that 
 or any other dogma of the papacy. 
 
 Divine authority cannot exist, but in the holy oracles : against any 
 other pretended infallible standard, all men should protest. The 
 fathers agreed in bearing testimony to the scriptures, as far as they 
 individually knew them ; but their unanimous consent on any thing 
 else has not yet been found. 
 
 Justin Martyr, for example, proves my interpretation of the 16th 
 ch. Matthew, on the rock. He is one of the primitive fathers. He 
 gives substantially the same views of that whole passage as I 
 have adduced here. Now it is impossible for my opponent to find a 
 unanimous consent of the fathers with him, as I have Justin Martyr, 
 of the second century, and many others, with me. My standing argu- 
 ment, on the consent of the fathers, is this : 
 
 I find many of the fathers unequivocally agreeing with me. These, 
 therefore, must express the unanimous consent, if there be any ; for it can- 
 not be unanimous without them. A 7 ow, if there be no unanimous consent, 
 the Romanists build upon a false foundation ; and if there be, they build 
 on a false foundation ; for we have that consent, not they. 
 
 But this unanimous consent fails in the succession. Admitting that 
 Peter was first bishop of Rome, no living man can tell whether Linus 
 or Clement was the second bishop of Rome. The ancients do nol 
 agree upon that point. Tertullian makes Clement second bishop, and 
 others make Linus. I have a chart, in Eusebius, which differs from 
 his own history in various points. I have other charts and indexes 
 that place the bishops of Rome in a different order. Eusebius does 
 not place Peter first; nor do any of the fathers. He places Linus first, 
 then Clitus, then Clement. Another tells us, that Peter was first, then 
 Linus, then Clement. A fourth, perhaps, on the authority of the last, 
 places Peter first and Clement second. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past Id o'clock, Jl. M. 
 BISHOP PTTRCELL rises 
 
 It is well, beloved friends, to keep our eyes upon the polar star, 
 when once we have embarked upon the sea of controversy. The 
 polar star of this question, is the attempted disproof, by my learned 
 friend, of the Roman Catholic claim, to be the holy, apostolic, catholic 
 church. He was pledged to show her to be an apostacy from the only 
 true church. Has he proved this ? Is there one intelligent man in 
 this assembly prepared to answer this question in the affirmative 1 
 I asked, from what church was she an apostacy 1 He told us that she 
 had apostatized in the year 1054. But he has not yet told us what 
 or where was the one true holy and apostolic church from which she 
 seceded. There was a good reason for it : no other catholic church 
 existed at the epoch indicated, but ours, the Roman Catholic. We 
 were then taken to the year 250, or some time thereabout. These 
 were indefinite words ; and I ask again what and where was the true 
 church from which she apostatized in 250 1 Has he informed you ? 
 we were referred to the Novatians and a Protestant church historian 
 Mosheim, tells us 
 
 [Mr. CAMPBELL here called Bishop PURCELL to order as not speaking 
 to the point; the moderators decided that he was in order and he pro- 
 ceeded.] The gentleman cannot confuse me by these interruption*
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 101 
 
 My eye is on the star. I say, that Mosheim, a Protestant ecclesiasti- 
 cal historian tells us that the Novatians embraced essential errors. I 
 have quoted from that historian, for this sect and all other prominent 
 sects, to the beginning of the 16th century. They taught some doc- 
 trines which Catholics, and some, which Protestants hold. They 
 taught some errois which Catholics and Protestants agree to reject 
 they taught disorganizing doctrines, which armed the civil power 
 both Catholic and Protestant against them and these doctrines, Ca- 
 tholics and Protestants mutually abhor. They were not then united, 
 pure, or apostolic. They were not the church of Christ. The ques- 
 tion then reverts upon us which was the church of Christ, from 
 which the Roman Catholic church separated in the 3d century 1 
 
 I now come at once to the last speech of the gentleman. I have 
 already agreed that this controversy is resolvible into two or three, 
 grand principles and by the discussion of these we may succeed 
 in ascertaining their ulterior consequences. If true that Christ has 
 established a head of the Church on earth, it follows that we must 
 recognize that head. So far we are right. If Peter was made that 
 head, we are right. If Peter was to have successors, we are right. 
 If that succession was to last to the end of time, we are right, for 
 we hold these propositions to be irrefragable. If on the contrary, 
 these propositions could be satisfactorily proved to be untrue, the 
 Catholics would be wrong. 
 
 I have proved the first of these, viz. that Peter was made the head 
 of the church, by Christ, from scripture. And what has my friend 
 discovered to weaken the force of the numerous and strong texts 1 
 have adduced, the rock, the keys, the feeding of the lambs, and of. 
 the sheep whom the lambs are wont to follow, the prayer of Christ 
 that Peter's faith should never fail, the charge given him by Christ 
 to confirm his brethren, his confession of the divinity of Christ be- 
 fore the other apostles, and the BLESSEDNESS pronounced on him for 
 that confession by Christ, the deference shewn him the poor illiterate 
 fisherman, by Paul, imbued with the sublimest lessons of the Law at 
 the feet of Gamaliel, &c. &c.? Why he says : " Peter, lovest thou me 
 more than these fish !" 
 
 My friends, I know not how to treat this interpretation seriously. 
 But since the gentleman is so curious an interpreter, let us see if the 
 text will bear him out. After the miracle of the draught of fishes, 
 the apostles, at Christ's invitation, proceeded to some distance from 
 their nets and barks, for the purpose of dining. It is natural to sup- 
 pose they selected, for dinner, no more of the fish they had taken, 
 than they would probably eat. Can my friend say that after they had 
 dined there were any of the cooked fish remaining ? There might have 
 been some bones left on the table ; but would Christ point to these 
 fish bones, and say, Peter, lovest thou more than these ? What a ques- 
 tion for Christ to ask his leading disciple ! Surely such an inter- 
 pretation is absurd. But what is the voice of antiquity ? My friend 
 says that Justin bears him out in his interpretation. Will my friend 
 point out the passage in Jhat father's works ? Will he say that it is the 
 principal sense, the sense that father approves * I pledge myself he will 
 not pretend to do so while refutation is near. Now if scripture is so 
 very clear, and this meaning as obvious as Mr. C. supposes, is it 
 not strange that this light should beam upon us to day for the first 
 I 2
 
 102 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 rime 1 The gentleman charges me with having dared to change the 
 gender of the word signifying these, from neuter to masculine. Does 
 he not know that the word' T:I/TV is both masculine and neuter 1 It is 
 generally applied to persons, though I do not deny that it may be ap- 
 plied .to things. The Greek therefore leaves us as much in the dark 
 as ever. 
 
 We find a parallel passage in the new Testament. " He that loveth 
 father and mother more than me is not worthy of me." Matth. x. 37. 
 Here the words are CTT^ eut (more than me), t/ut is in the accusative 
 case Touroiy is in the genitive case. But, my friends, this has nothing 
 to do with the question at issue ; it does not make for or against my 
 argument, whether we adopt the natural, or the gross interpretation. 
 Christ said to Peter, " lovest thou me." He demands an assurance of 
 his faithful attachment. Peter three times replies in the affirmative, 
 and thrice the command is repeated to him, " feed my lambs," " feed 
 my sheep." The argument is entirely independent of either con- 
 struction referred to. Hence I maintain that Peter was established, 
 head of the church by Jesus Christ. The " rock," the " keys," the 
 prayer, the prophecy of the place and manner of Peter's death, which 
 we read in the same chapter, all prove it. 
 
 The gentleman says that a doctrine should be so clear, that it could 
 not possibly be contested. This is really too soft for a man of Mr. 
 C.'s strong mind. What is there so clear that it could not possibly be 
 contested. Does not the universe tell as clearly as Genesis, that God 
 created the heavens and the earth, and is not that contested ? Whal 
 doctrine more clearly revealed in the bible, or more important than 
 the divinity of Christ ? and is not that contested ? and by one of the 
 most learned societies of Christians in the United States, I mean the 
 Unitarians. They read the bible and they think it impiety and bias 
 phemy to call Jesus Christ God ! 
 
 It was essential in the Jewish institution that there should be a high 
 priest. If the old institution was a type of the new, where is the 
 anti-type ? And if the headship of the high priest of the Jews dero- 
 gated not from the authority of God the Father, who was pleased to 
 be their special ruler, neither does the headship of the pope derogate 
 from the supreme authority of God the Son, Jesus Christ, who acquir- 
 ed the church by his blood and established Peter its visible head on 
 earth, to exercise the office during his natural life, and by his succes- 
 sors for ever. 
 
 My friend flies from scripture to tradition, and from a father of the 
 early age to a modern historian. I will pledge myself to this en- 
 ightened assembly that the supremacy of Peter and of Peter's suc- 
 cessors in the Roman see can be abundantly attested by an appeal to 
 tradition : and I may here observe that Baronius has been misrepre- 
 sented. He does not say it is not improbable that Peter fixed his see at 
 Rome of this he knew there was no doubt ; but that it was not im- 
 probable he fixed his see there by the express command of Christ, 
 which is, the intelligent hearer will perceive, quite a different propo- 
 sition. Peter acted as the other apostles did, under the guidance of in- 
 spiration, in the choice of the scene of his pastoral toils; but Baronius 
 thinks it not improbable that Christ expressly commanded him to se- 
 lect Rome for his There he could " TEACH ALL NATIONS." Mr. C. 
 asserts that for a thousand years there is not a voice heard to attest
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 103 
 
 this fact. My friends, not one voice, but five hundred attest it. There 
 is one loud chorus of testimony among the fathers and historians, 
 givi no- almost universal consent to the doctrine. Some obscure indi- 
 viduals may have doubted, or denied it in late years. They are but 
 motes on the surface of the overwhelming stream of testimony. Again 
 my friend went back to the bible. He read of the high priest but he 
 cannot open the bible without seeing his own refutation written there 
 almost the first words that struck my ears were, the dresses and anoint' 
 ing of the priests. Where are such things done among Protestants I 
 Do they not make void the scriptures 1 Anointing the clergy and the 
 sick, commanded by the bible rejected by Protestants superseded 
 by the fashions of the day ! Agafh : Aaron was separated that he should 
 bless and sanctify and yet if the pope bless or sanctify, he is an im- 
 pious assumer of what belongs to God alone!! 
 
 The case of Korah, Dathan and Abiram was mentioned. God re- 
 ally appears to me to extort from the adversaries of his church the 
 most striking proof of her authority, vindicated in the Type, from 
 the sacrilegious contradictions of the schismatics of the old law. 
 The ground opened and swallowed them up ! So have all the sects, 
 that in the early ages opposed the church, perished. The grave has 
 hidden their guilt from the earth, too happy if they bear not its pen- 
 alty in the world that expands beyond the grave ! Again 250 priests 
 perished for opposing the ordinance of God ! the ecclesiastical guide 
 he had appointed ! 
 
 My friend asks, if the headship of Peter and his successors were 
 as certainly divine as the high priesthood of the old law, would it not 
 have been established by proof as plain? Why, he emphatically de- 
 manded, cannot the Roman pontiff, like Aaron, shew his authority by 
 an equally convincing miracle 1 My friends, I take the gentleman at 
 his word. He that has-eyes to see let him see. Has not God wrought 
 a similar miracle I will fearlessly say a far more splendid miracle, 
 to attest the preeminence of the see of Peter 1 Has not the night of 
 Mahommedanism and infidelity thrown its sable pall over the once 
 flourishing churches of Africa and Asia 1 ? Has not the bright light of 
 the gospel become extinct in the most celebrated of the sees founded 
 by the other apostles Crete, Corinth, Ephesus, Antioch, Alexandria, 
 Philippi, Jerusalem 1 Where is the hymn of praise to Christ inton- 
 ed, the voice of pure confession heard, the TABERNACLE OF THE TES- 
 TIMONY seen in any^ of these famous churches, where St. Paul had 
 formed such a multitude of adorers in spirit and in truth ? which he 
 risked with so much solicitude, prayed for with so much fervor, and 
 loved with so much tenderness. Returning to visit these churches, 
 not on the following day as Moses did the rods of the twelve tribes 
 but after eighteen hundred years, we see that the rod of Aaron, th 
 church formed by the high priest appointed by Jesus Christ in th 
 New, Law, has budded and blossomed, and produced fruit of which 
 all the nations have participated, while the churches formed by the 
 other apostles have been stricken with a melancholy sterility, and 
 have utterly withered ! The murmuring of the children of Israel 
 against Moses and Aaron ceased when they beheld the prodigy rela- 
 ted in the book of Numbers ; is it too much to expect that we will be 
 less insensible to an equally authentic declaration in favor of the 
 church and pontiff, the special objects of the divine protection and 
 care ?
 
 104 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 When Pius, VT. died at Valence, in France, it was said that qnicli 
 lime was thrown on his corpse, that no vestige of it might remain, and 
 infidelity boasted that Christianity was buried in the same grave with 
 its pontiff. But a successor was soon beheld to ascend into the chair 
 of Peter alas ! he too, is doomed to suffer contumely for the name of 
 Jesus. He is seized with violence, by a ruthless soldiery, and car- 
 ried off from Rome, an exile and a prisoner, to Fontainebleau. The 
 doom of his persecutor is written : he is precipitated from the giddy 
 heights of his ambition, and the meek, but invincible heir of Peter's 
 sacred power, contrary to all human foresight, is reinstated by a Pro- 
 festant government, by 30,000 Protestant bayonets, in the peaceful ex- 
 ercise of his duties, as the chief pastor of the Catholic world. Eng- 
 land, with all thy faults I love thee still. You are Protestants, but 
 you can be just. Rome, changeless amid change, Rome, free among 
 the dead, unaffected by earthly revolutions, by earthly conquests un- 
 subdued, why have the nations raged, and the people devised vain 
 things against thee ? The Lord is thy protector still. He hath won- 
 derfully sustained thee, amidst all the vicissitudes of human institu- 
 tions. " He that dwelleth in heaven," to use the language of the 
 Psalmist, " hath laughed at them that stood up against the,e, and the 
 Lord shall deride them." My friend would call it " morbid" in England, 
 to sympathise with the Catholics, as he has called your generous sym 
 pathies for your persecuted fellow-citizens ; but it is not morbid, it is 
 magnanimous, it is just to confess an error, to abjure an unfounded 
 prejudice, and to side with the wrongfully oppressed. 
 
 1 quoted scripture to prove that Christ was the corner stone, on 
 which the whole building securely rests and that Peter is the rock of 
 the foundation, deriving whatever strength it has thus exhibited from 
 Christ. There is no contradiction in this. I am compelled to follow the 
 zigzag course of my friend. The reader of the printed controversy will 
 be at no loss to bring together the diverging rays of evidence and to find 
 my answers to objections, where they may be, apparently out of place. 
 
 There is no distinction of persons in Syriac. In Greek it is once 
 m>Tfat, and again ?TT/>* but this change of gender is merely to 
 avoid a repetition of the same word in the same sentence. This is 
 reason sufficient, to account for the difference. I give my friend thanks 
 for proving that Peter was not Satan. It is the correct reading, and 
 therefore, I agree with his interpretation of the text; when Christ says 
 to Peter, "get thee behind me Satan," that is you, who differ from 
 me oh this particular subject. This text has been much abused. 
 
 Again : Peter did think, that he loved Jesus more than the rest, and 
 Christ knew that he did. Do you remember, my friends, the scene 
 which took place shortly before the Savior suffered ] When he told his 
 apostles, with a holy melancholy on his sacred heart, that one of them 
 would betray him that the shepherd should be stricken, and the sheep 
 dispersed ] Ah ! is there not something in the noble hearted enthusi- 
 asm of Peter, which is at once the cause of his offence and its pallia- 
 tion ? " Although all shall be scandalized in thee, yet not 1." This 
 proves an impulsiveness, an ardor, and a strength of attachment to the 
 person of Christ, which Peter, too confidently it may be, but yet sin- 
 cerely, believed to be greater than the other disciples felt for their di- 
 vine master. 
 . Jesus knew this, but he warns him not to be presumptuous. " Amen,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELfGION. 105 
 
 I say to thee, to-day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, 
 thou shall deny me thrice," Mark xiv. 30. From this, and other texts, 
 Peter's ardor, and the Savior's knowledge of his confidence in his own 
 steadfastness are perfectly plain. Why, then, deny them both ] 
 
 1 quoted the vulgate, not through ignorance of Greek, on which I 
 have shewn as much knowledge as my friend ; but not to boast of a 
 little learning on the words, n\itw Tculuv. The Greek, the Latin, and the 
 English, as verbal criticism is necessary to elucidate the meaning of 
 the text, are by a singular coincidence, in this case, equally ambigu- 
 ous. How can an unlettered Protestant understand the text 1 ? 
 
 The popes do not claim to be lords, spiritual, and temporal. But 
 very few of them exercised any temporal power beyond the limits of 
 their own principality, where they rule, as Gibboii told you, by the 
 voice of a free people whom they have redeemed from slavery. Their 
 throne is established in the affections of their people, who, with rea- 
 son, prefer their pontiff's mild sway to kingly usurpation the crosier, 
 to the sceptre. The popes have never taken the title of kings of Rome. 
 
 I can shew from Waddington and Southey, both Protestant histori- 
 ans of the church, that through centuries of darkness and doubt and 
 civil commotion, while the Turk was ravaging the southern regions of 
 Europe and the northern hordes were pouring down in swarms from 
 their ice-bound regions, desolating the blooming fields, and destroying 
 all that was useful and beautiful of the works of civilization, the pope 
 was the only savior of Europe, from their barbarian ravages. He 
 gave to science and to letters the only refuge which could then have 
 availed them the refuge of an altar and the now calumniated fnonks 
 who reproduced in more auspicious times, the intellectual ray. They 
 handed us the works of the sages, and heroes, the poets, historians 
 and orators of Greece and Rome across the isthmus of the " dark ages" 
 so called. They preserved for us a better gift the Bible. 
 
 Benefits conferred by the church. " Yet should we be very unjust to the Roman 
 Catholic church, if we should allow it to be supposed, that she opened no recep- 
 tacles, for the nurture of true excellence; that in her general institutions, espe- 
 cially in her earlier age, she has overlooked the moral necessities of man the 
 truth is far otherwise. We have repeatedly observed, how commonly, in seasons 
 of barbarism, religion was employed in supplying the defects of civil government 
 and diffusing consolation and security. The Truce of God mitigated the fury 
 of private warfare, by limiting the hours of 'vengeance, and interposing a space 
 for the operation of justice and humanity. The name of the church was associated 
 with peace; and it was a prouder position, than when she trampled on the necks 
 of kings, (what she never did by the bye as I shall prove.) The emancipation of 
 the Serfs was another cause, equally sacred, in which her exertions were re- 
 peatedly employed. In her interference in the concerns of monarchsend nations, 
 she frequently appeared as the advocate of the weak.and the adversary of arbi- 
 trary power. Even the much abused law of Asylum served through a long pe- 
 riod, as a check on baronial oppression, rather than an encouragement to crime. 
 
 The duty of charity, during the better ages of the church, was by no means 
 neglected by the secular clergy, while it was the practice and office of the mo- 
 nastic establishments. And even the discipline, so strictly inculcated by the 
 earlier prelates, however arbitrary in its exercise, and pernicious in its abuse, 
 was not unprofitable in arresting the first steps, and restraining the earliest dis- 
 positions to sin. Confession and penance, and the awful censures of the church, 
 when dispensed with discretion, must have been potent instruments for the 'im- 
 provement of uncivilized society." Waddington's Church Hist, page 5-16, JVew 
 York edit. 1835. 
 
 We now come to the word Kxxjoc (cleros,) which the gentleman 
 say means lot and not clergy. Lot does mean the whole people of
 
 106 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 God clergy and laity. Now if the apostle could not lord it over the 
 whole people, he could not lord it over the clergy. The pope does not lord 
 it over the consciences of either clergy or laity he helieves as they do. 
 
 The apostles sent Peter and John to Samaria. Peter and John 
 prohably offered themselves for the early mission Peter, to whom 
 God had given superior power and John, who had leaned on the bo- 
 som of Jesus at supper both pre-eminent apostles, to confirm the peo- 
 ple of Samaria. 
 
 No man can read the New Testament attentively without seeing, at 
 a'most every page, the evidence of Peter's divinely appointed and ac- 
 knowledged primacy ; or the history of the church, without every 
 where discovering the primacy of his successors. Not one council 
 has been received that the pope did not approve. His approbation is 
 in the last resort, the only certain test of a council's orthodoxy. 
 
 Peter spoke first in the council at Jerusalem. Peter was justly re- 
 primanded by Paul. The very fact of Paul mentioning his boldness 
 on this occasion, confirms the fact of Peter's supremacy. So did Ire- 
 naeus remonstrate with pope Victor in the controversy of the Quarto- 
 decimans about the time of observing the Easter and the pope's 
 sentiments prevailed although Irenaeus' dissuasive did good. So did 
 the controversy about re-baptization terminate between St. Cyprian 
 and the popes Cornelius and Stephen. The popes' decision was every 
 where received. 
 
 Now Paul himself did the same for which he blamed Peter. He 
 knew and prized the freedom with which Christ had made him free, 
 yet he says, " If meat scandalize my brother, I will not eat it forever." 
 
 He vainly persists in saying there is no good ground for asserting that 
 Peter was ever in Rome, after all the proof I have adduced. Here is 
 Robinson's Calmet, a Protestant dictionary of the Bible, a standard work 
 in Protestant libraries. Calmet was a Roman Cat/iolic. He was a prodigy 
 of learning and ancient literature and Robinson, a Protestant divine, 
 thought he could not furnish a better gift to the public than this book. 
 
 " II' the reader wishes to see the evidence from antiquity, on which Peter'g 
 having been at Rome rests, he will find it fully set forth by Lardner. who con- 
 cludes his inquiry as follows : This is the general, uncontradicted, disinterest- 
 ed testimony of ancient writers in the several parts of the world, Greeks, Lat- 
 ins, Syrians. As our Lord's prediction concerning the death of Peter, is record- 
 ed in one of the four Gospels, it is very likely that Christians would observe the 
 accomplishment of it, which must have been in some place. And about thii 
 place, there is no difference among Christian writers of ancient times. Never 
 any other place was named besides Rome; nor did any other city, ever glory in 
 the martyrdom of Peter. It is not for our honor, nor for our interests, either 
 BS Christians or Protestants, to deny the truth of events ascertained by early and 
 irell attested tradition. If any make an ill use (as he calls it) of such facts, we 
 are not accountable for it. We are not, from a dread of such abuses, to over- 
 throw the credit of all history, the consequence of which would be fatal." Rob- 
 inson's Calmet, p. 741. 
 
 The gentleman has said that not one voice has attested the fact of 
 the succession of the Roman see for a thousand years. I have quoted 
 Eusebius, a Greek father of the fourth century, translated by a Pro- 
 testant minister, a splendid work. Here is a list of 29 bishops who 
 sat in the chair of St. Peter, all of whom he names in the body of the 
 work; also the succession in the churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, 
 Rome, Laodicea, &c. - 
 
 OF ST. PETER. 
 
 (Simon Magus) "entering- the city of Rome, by the co-operation of that m
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC KEtlGION. 107 
 
 lignant spirit which had fixed its seat there, his attempts werejoonso far suo 
 ceisfu!, as to be honored as a god, with the erection of a statue by the inhabitants 
 of that citj\ This, however,. did not continue long; For immediately under the 
 reign of Claudius, by the benign and gracious providence of God, Peter, that 
 poueiftd and great apostle, who, by his courage took the lead of all the rest, was 
 conducted to Rome against this pest of mankind. He, like a noble commander 
 of God, fortified with divine armor, bore the precious merchandise of the re- 
 vealed light from the East to those in the West, announcing the light itself, 
 and salutary docrine of the soul, the proclamation of the kingdom of God." 
 Cook 11. chap. 14, page 64. 
 
 OF LINUS. 
 
 "After the martyrdom of Paul and Peter, Linus was the first thai received the 
 episcopate at Rome." Book III. chap. 2, page 82. 
 ANACLETUS. 
 
 "After Vespasian had reigned about ten years, he was succeeded by his son 
 Titus; in the second year of whose reign, Linus, bishop of the church of Rome, 
 who had held th office about twelve years, transferred^ it to Anacletus." Chap. 
 13, page 100. 
 
 CLEMENT. 
 
 " In the twelfth year of the same reign, (Domitian's,) after Anacletus had 
 been bishop of Rome twelve years, he was succeeded by Clement." Chap. 15, 
 page 100. 
 
 EUARESTUS. 
 
 *' In the third year of the above mentioned reign (Trajan's,) Clement, bishop 
 of Rome, committed the episcopal charge to Euarestus." Chap. 34, page 120. 
 ALEXANDER 
 
 " About the twelfth year of the reign of Trajan, after Euarestus had 
 
 completed the eighth year ag bishop of Rome, he was succeeded in the episcopal 
 office by Alexander." Bok IV. chap. 1, page 128. 
 
 XVSTUS. 
 
 " But in the year of the same (Adrian's) reign, Alexander, bishop of Rome, 
 died, having completed the tenth year of his ministrations. Xystus was his suc- 
 cessor." Chap. 4, page 130. 
 
 TELESPHORUS AND HYGINUS. 
 
 " In the first year of this (Antonine's) reign, and in the eleventh year of his 
 episcopate, Telesphorus departed this life, and was succeeded in the charge of 
 the Roman church by Hygmus." Chap. 10, page 137. 
 
 PiUS. 
 
 " But Hyginus dying after the fourth year of his office, Pius received th 
 episcopate." Chap. 11, page 138. 
 
 ANTCETUS. 
 
 " And Pius dying at Rome in the fifteenth year of his episcopate, the church 
 there was governed by Anicetus," Ibid, page 138. 
 
 SOTER. 
 
 " It was in the eighth year of the above mentioned reig-n, viz. that of Verua 
 that Anicetus, who held the episcopate of Rome for eleven years, was succeeded 
 by Soter." Chap. 19, page 156. 
 
 ELEUTHERUS. 
 
 " Soter, bishop of Rome, died after having held the episcopate eight years. He 
 was succeeded by Eleutherus, the twelfth in order from the apostles." Book V. 
 Prelim, page 168. 
 
 VICTOR. 
 
 " In the tenth year of the reign of Commodus, Eleutherus, who bad held the 
 piscopate for thirteen years, was succeeded by Victor." Chap. 22, page 206. 
 
 ZEPHYRINUS. 
 
 " But after this author (Victor,) had superintended the church, Zephyrinus was 
 appointed his successor about the ninth year of the reign of Severus." Chap 
 28, page 214. 
 
 CALIJSTHUS AND URBANUS. 
 
 " In the first year of the latter (Antonine's reign,) Zephyrinus the bishop of 
 Rome, departed this life, after having charge of the church "eighteen years. Ht 
 was succeeded in the episcopate by Callisthus, who survived him five years, and 
 fc-ft the church to Urbanus, Chap. 21, page 242.
 
 108 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 PONTIANUS. 
 
 " Whilst this was the state of thing's, Urban, who had been bishop of Rome 
 eight years, was succeeded by Pontianus." Chap. 23, page 243. 
 ANTEROS AND FABIANUS. 
 
 "Gordian succeeded Maximus in tiie sovereignty of Rome, when Pontianus 
 who had held the episcopate six years, was succeeded by Anteros in the chuich 
 of Rome; he also is succeeded by Fabianus." Chap. 29, page 248. 
 
 CORNELIUS. 
 
 " Decius .... raised a persecution against the church, in which Fabisnua 
 suffered martyrdom, and was succeeded as bishop of Rome by Cornelius." 
 Chap. 39, page 254. 
 
 Lucius AND STEPHEN. 
 
 "After Cornelius had held the episcopal office at Rome about three yetrs, h 
 was succeeded by Lucius, but the latter did not hold the office quite eight 
 months, when flying he transferred it to Stephen." Book VII. chap. 2, page 
 271. 
 
 STEPHEN AND XYSTUS II. 
 
 " But after Stephen had held the episcopal office two yean, he was succeeded 
 by Xystus." Chap. 5, page 273. 
 
 DIONYSIUS. 
 
 " Xystus had been bishop of Rome eleven years, when he was succeeded by 
 Dionysius." Chap. 27, page 302. 
 
 FELIX. 
 
 " Dionysius, who had been bishop of Rome for nine years, was succeeded by 
 Felix." Chap. 30, page 308. 
 
 EUTYCHIANUS, CAIUS, AND MARCELLINUS. 
 
 i lie. 
 
 ed 
 about fifteen years, when he was succeeded by Marcellinus." Chap. 32, page 310 
 
 MlLTIADES. 
 
 " Constantine Augustus, to Miltiades bishop of Rome." Book X. chap. 5 
 page 429. 
 
 I need only refer to what I have read from this authentic historian 
 for splendid and indisputable proof. Here is the succession equally 
 plain in all the churches, but longest in Rome. Thence it has been 
 faithfully noticed, and regularly perpetuated in an uninterrupted chain 
 of pontiffs down to the present chief pastor, 'auspiciously presiding 
 over all the church. 
 
 Now, my friend, in the name of God what is to become of this con- 
 troversy, when testimony like this is overlooked? And to close the 
 testimony of Eusebius who has embodied that of the preceding ages, 
 so as to leave no doubt, that the same identical doctrines, the present 
 organization, orders and sacraments of the Catholic church were those 
 of the first ages of Christianity, and heresy too the same then that it now 
 is. I crave your attention for one of the most instructive chapters 
 that could possibly be read on a subject of such absorbing interest to 
 the Christian. 
 
 Of Jfovahis, his manners and habits, and his heresy. 
 
 About this time appeared JVovatus (Novatian) a presbyter of the church of 
 Rome, and a man elevated with haughtiness against these (that had fallen), as if 
 there was no room for them to hope salvation, not even, if they performed every 
 thing for a genuine and pore confession. He thus became the leader of the pe- 
 culiar heresy of those who, in the pomp of their imaginations, called themselves 
 Catharl. A very large council being held on account of this, at which sixty in- 
 deed of the bishops, but a still greater number of presbyters and deacons were 
 present ; the pastors of the remaining provinces, according to their plares, deli- 
 berated separately what should be done: this decree was passed by all; "That 
 Novatus, indeed, and those who so arrogantly united with him, and those that 
 had determined to adopt the uncharitable at d most inhuman opinion of the man.
 
 g 
 h 
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 109 
 
 Jhrse they considered among those that were alienated from th* vkmcb; but 
 that brethren who had incurred any calamity, should be treated a.*; *-led with 
 the remedies of repentance." 
 
 There are also epistles of Cornelius, bishop of Rome, addressed to Fabius, bi- 
 shop of Antioch, which show the transactions of the council of Rome, as also, 
 the opinions of all those in Italy and Africa, and the regions there. Others there 
 are also written in the Roman tongue, from Cyprian, and the bishop* with h;m in 
 Africa. In these, it is shewn that they also agree in the necessity of relieving 
 those who had fallen under severe temptations, and also in the propriety of ex- 
 communicating the author of the heresy, and all that were 01 his party. To 
 these is attached also an epistle from Cornelius on the decrees of the council, 
 h> sides others on the deeds of Novatus, from which we may add extracts, that 
 those who read the present work may know the circumstances respecting him, 
 What kind of a character Novatus was, Cornelius informs Fabius, writing as fol- 
 lows: " But that you may know, says he, how this singular man,'who formerly 
 aspired to the episcopate, and secretly concealed within himself this precipitate 
 ambition, making use of those confessors that adhered to him from the beginning, 
 as a cloak for his own folly, I will proceed to relate: Maximus, a presbyter of 
 our church, and Urbanus, twice obtained the highest reputation for their con- 
 fessions. Sidonius also, and Celerinus, a man who, by the mercy of God, bore 
 every kind of torture in the most heroic manner, and, by the firmness of his own 
 faith strengthened the weakness of the flesh, completely worsted the adversary. 
 These men, therefore, as they knew him, and had well sounded his artifice and 
 duplicity, as also his perjuries and falsehoods, his dissocial and savage character, 
 returned to the holy church, and announced all his devices and wickedness, which 
 he had for a long time dissembled within himself, and this too in the presence of 
 many bishops; and the same also, in the presence of many presbyters, and a 
 reat number of laymen, at the same time lamenting and sorrowing that they 
 ad been seduced, and had abandoned the church for a short time, through the 
 agency of that artful and malicious beast." After a little, he further says : We 
 have seen, beloved brother^ within a short time, an extraordinary conversion and 
 change in him. For this most illustrious man, and he who affirmed with the most 
 dreadful oaths, that he never aspired to the episcopate, has suddenly appeared a 
 bishop, as thrown among us by some machine. For this dogmatist, this (pre- 
 tended) champion of ecclesiastical discipline, when he attempted to seize and 
 usurp the episcopate not given him from above, selected two desperate characters 
 as his associates, to send them to some small, and that the smallest, part of Italy, 
 and from thence, by some fictitious plea, to impose upon three bishops there, men 
 altogether ignorant and simple, affirming and declaring, that it was necessary foi 
 them to come to Rome in all haste, that all the dissension which had there aris- 
 en might be removed through their mediation, in conjunction with the other bi- 
 shops. When these men had come, being as before observed, but simple and 
 plain in discerning the artifices and villany of the wicked, and when shut up 
 with men of the same stamp with himself, at the tenth hour, when heated with 
 wine and surfeiting, they forced them by a kind of shadowy and empty imposi- 
 tion of hands, to confer the episcopate upon him, and which, though by no meani 
 suited to him, he claims by fraud and treachery. One of these, not long after, re- 
 turned to his church, mourning and confessing his error, with whom also we com- 
 muned as a layman, as all the people present interceded for him, and we sent suc- 
 cessors to the other bishops, ordaining them in the place where they were. This 
 asserter of the gospel then did not know that there should be but one bishdp in 
 catholic church.* (> xaSoxixii <xxx>io-.a). 
 
 * The word catholic, in its Greek etymology, means universal, as we have sometimes ex- 
 plained it in this translation. It is applied to the Christian, as a universal church, partly 
 to distinguish it from the ancient church of the Jews, which was limited, partial, and par 
 ticul&r in its duration, subjects and country. The Christian is also called a universal or 
 catholic chiirch, because it must in regard to doctrine hold quod sempe-. quod ubique, guo4 
 Mb omnibus. In this latter view, which it should be well observed is the original applica- 
 tion, it is synonymous with orthodox. This is evident, from the fact that our author applies 
 it to different churches in other parts of his history. And in the present instance the ex- 
 pression is general, a eatfiolic church. It is in a sonse allied to this also, that we are, no 
 doubt, to understand the title of our general, (catholic') epistles, in the New Testament. 
 They are catholic, because as consonant to the doctrines of the church in all respects, thef 
 have been also universally received. lu this sense, the term is also iyuonjmoos with can
 
 110 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 In which, however, he well knew, (for how could he be ignorant ?) that there 
 were forty-six presb,ers, seven deacons, seven sub-deacons, forty-two aooluthi 
 (clerks,) exorcists, re'.ders, and janitors, in all fifty -two ; widows, with the afflicted 
 and needy, more than fifteen-hundred; all which the goodness and love ot God 
 doth support and nourish. But neither this great number, so necessary in the 
 church, nor those that bv the providence of God were wealthy and opulent, toge- 
 ther with the innumerable multitude of the people, were able to recall him and 
 turn him from such a desperate and presumptuous course." And again, after these, 
 he subjoins the following: " Now let us also tell by what means and conduct he 
 nad the assurance to claim the episcopate. Whether, indeed, it was because he 
 was engaged in the church from the beginning, and endured many conflicts for her, 
 nd encountered many and great dangers in the ciase of true religion? None of all 
 Urn. To him, indeed, the author and instigator o* his faith was Satan, who enter- 
 ed into and dwelt in him a long time. Who, a ; d<;d by the exorcists, when attacked 
 with an obstinate disease, and being supposed ut the point of death, was baptised 
 ay aspersion, in the bed on which he iay ; if, indeed, it be proper to say- that one like 
 unidid receive baptism. But neither when he recovered from disease, did he par- 
 take of other things, vhicb the rules of the church prescribed as a duty, nor was he 
 _eled (in confirmation) by the bishop. Butashedid not obtain this, l:ow could he 
 >btain the Holy Spirit'/" And again, soon after, he says: " He denied he was a 
 Diesbyter, through covraruice and the love of life, in the time of persecution. For 
 A 7 hen requested and exhorted by the deacons, that he should go forth from his re- 
 
 reat, in which he had imprisoned himself, and should come to the reliel of the bre- 
 thren, as far as was proper and in the power of a presbyter to assist brethren requir- 
 ing relief, he was so far from yielding to anv exhortation of the deacons, that he 
 urent away offended and left them. For he said that he wished to be a presbyter no 
 longer, for he was an admirer of a different philosophy." After this, he adds 
 Another deed, the worst of all the man's absurdities, thus: "For having inad) 
 
 he oblation, and distributed a part to each one, whilst giving this, he compels tho 
 anhappy men to swear instead of blessing ; holding the hands of the one receiv 
 ng, with both his own, and not letting them go until he had sworn in these words, 
 'or I shall repeat the very words: 'Swear to me, by the body and blood of our 
 ' savior, Jesus Christ, that you will never desert me, nor turn to Cornelius." 
 knd the unhappy man is then not suffered to taste until he had first cursed him 
 elf; and instead of saying Amen, after he had taken the bread, he says, 'I will 
 no longer return to Cornelius." And, after other matters, he again proceeds, ag 
 follows : " Now, you must know, that he is stripped and abandoned, the brethren 
 leaving him every day and returning to the church. He was also excommunicat- 
 ed by Moses, that blessed witness, who but lately endured a glorious and wonder- 
 ful martyrdom, and who, whilst yet among the living, seeing the audacity and 
 the folly of the man, excluded him from the communion, together with the 
 five presbyters that had cut themselves off from the church." At the close of the 
 epistle, he gives a list of the bishops who had come to Rome, and had discarded 
 the incorrigible disposition of Novatus; at the same time adding the names, to- 
 gether with the churches governed by each. He also mentioned those that were 
 hot present at Rome, but who, by letter, assented to the decision of the former, 
 adding also the names and the particular cities whence each one had written. 
 Such is the account written by Cornelius to Fabius bishop of Antioch. From 
 pages 263-4-5-6-7 of Eusebius' Eccles. Hist, transl. by Rev. C. F. Cruse, Book 
 vi. (iiiap. 43. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 11, A. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELT, rises 
 
 1 have some respect, my friends, not only to the audience who hear 
 but to those who may. read this discussion; and, therefore, I wish my 
 argument to be as continuous and unbroken as possible. I could, indeed, 
 wish that my ingenious and eloquent opponent would reply to my 
 speeches in regular sequence, and thus give more of system and tenacity 
 to our debate. Before I trace his zigzag course, I wish to add to my last 
 speech a few Ir.ndred considerations. While it behooves him to prove 
 that Peter was first bishop of Rome, I am gratuitously in display of my 
 resources, as the advocate of Protestantism, rather spontaneously prov-
 
 BOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION 111 
 
 ing a negative, or showing that Peter never was bishop of Rome. Two 
 considerations may be added to my remarks on this head: 1st. The 
 special commission, which he had to the Jews as Paul had to the 
 Gentiles, precludes the idea of his here devoting himself to any por- 
 tion of the Gentile world. The "ministry of the circumcision" was 
 committed to him, and therefore not the Roman capital; but rather the 
 Syrian capital or Jerusalem should have been the place of his location, 
 2d. His commission, as apostle, precludes the idea of his being s*a- 
 tioned as bishop at any one place. You cannot place Peter as bishop 
 of Rome, any more than you can make the president of the United 
 States mayor of Cincinnati. The duties of these officers are not more 
 incompatible than the duties of an apostle and a resident bishop. What 
 are the duties of the bishop's chair] Are they not to watch over a 
 particular diocese? What does the apostles' commission say ? "Go 
 ye into all the world, and announce the glad tidings to the whole crea- 
 tion." It would be as easy to prove that the bishop of London may 
 be vicar of Bray, or curate of St. Ives, as that Peter was, or could be, 
 bishop of Rome. These two considerations deserve the attention of 
 my friend, and I hope that he will not pass them too in silence. 
 
 That every important office, essential to the government of any com- 
 munity, must have a place clearly specific in the constitution is scarce 
 ly necessary to prove; yet, as my opponent seems to slur over this 
 matter, I shall read a sentence or two of the Constitution of the United 
 States, to show that in the estimation of its framers, it was necessary 
 to have a distinct assertion of the office and power of the president. 
 
 ART. ii. SECT. 1. The executive power shall be vested in a President of the 
 United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of foin 
 years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 SECT. 2. " Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the legislature there- 
 of may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of senators'and 
 representatives to which the state may be entitled in the congress; but no senator 
 or representative, or person holding any office of trust or profit under the Unit- 
 ed States, shall be appointed an elector." The American's Guide, p. 20. 
 
 Now the head of the Christian church was, at least, as wise as the 
 convention which framed this. instrument, foreseeing all the difficulties 
 of the church in all time, and as he was determined to make all things 
 plain, and certainly he was as capable as they to reveal and express 
 his own will, had he resolved to build his church on the shoulder of 
 St. Peter, he would have unequivocally expressed it. He would have 
 defined the office, appointed the first officer, and legislated the mode 
 of election. The practice of electing popes in the church of Rome is 
 a candid acknowledgment that there is no law in the case: for they 
 have had very different modes at different periods of their history. 
 What would we Americans say, if every few years a new mode should 
 be adopted, without regard to the constitution? Would they submit 
 to such a chief magistrate? 
 
 The gentleman proceeded to read and reiterate his remarks en two 
 passages of scripture, often before us : he objects to my criticism on 
 the last chapter of John. His last remarks enable me to give it a 
 more thorough exposition. He says my construction "requires the 
 accusative for these." I say, with more of the philosophy of language, 
 his construction requires the nominative. The question would have 
 bc-en plainly this : " Do you love me more than these love me." runs*, 
 it is true, always requires the genitive ; but the whole construction of
 
 ix DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the sentence would have been changed, if these were to he the nomina* 
 live to the verb here understood. My construction is critically correct 
 as the sentence now reads, but it will not bear his construction. Hut 
 there is yet another great assumption in the quotation of this passage 
 on which I have not yet emphasized. He says, "feed my sheep''' means, 
 feed my pastors, and " feed my lambs" means, feed myjiock. Mark the 
 assumption, that sheep signifies pastors, and lambs the people! Where 
 does he find authority for this 1 ? If "sheep" any where else signified 
 "clergy" and "lambs" laity, there would be some plausibility in it; 
 but with the absence of such usage it is supremely whimsical and 
 arbitrary ; and yet the point of this passage rests upon the assumption 
 of sheep for clergy. So far he presses it into his service, for that 
 bishojis are to feed the flock is not disputed, but that one of them is 
 before the others is the question in debate. 
 
 The gentleman, on Saturday, called my interpretation of this pas- 
 sage a fish story ; this mode of treating so holy an institution, so 
 solemn a matter, is not in the true dignity of the subject, nor of the 
 occasion ; nor is it very respectful to the great personage on whose 
 words we comment; but the audience have not met it with a laugh, and 
 therefore I presume they felt the incongruity. In the same style are 
 the morning's remarks on the bones, &c. but the bishop might remem- 
 ber there was more in the premises than the spoils of a single meal ; 
 there were many fish and all the apparatus before them, but no ono 
 would interpret the words of the question in that style on any othei 
 occasion. It was sustenance in general, and not a particular meal, 
 concerning which the Savior spoke. 
 
 The gentleman suggests that, in the 1st chap, of John, Christ in his 
 first interview with Peter changes his name to Cephas ; and he as- 
 sumes "that it was that he might afterwards make him the rock of 
 his church !" It was a vrfry common thing in the history of the patri- 
 archs and Jews to change names. Thus we find from the beginning 
 of their history, various instances of this : " Sarar' is changed into 
 Sarah,- " Abram" into Abraham; "Jacob" into Israel. Two of the 
 apostles were called " Boanerges" sons of Thunder ; but that did not 
 convert them into thunder; neither did the name Cephas convert Peter 
 into a stone. If I were to give a reason for the addition to Peter's 
 name, (but it was neither change nor addition, rightly considered.) I 
 would say that it was most probably occasioned by .(he fact, that Daniel 
 spoke of the kingdom of the Messiah under the figure of a stone cut 
 out of the mountain. With an eye probably to this kingdom of the 
 stone, (as Peter was the first convert,) his name is improved by being 
 translated into Syriac ; for after all, it is rather a translation of ' Petroa 
 than an addition to it! He was, however, the beginning of this new 
 spiritual edifice, and a foundation stone ; but only one among many. 
 
 This kingdom of the stone, it is foretold by Daniel, was to com- 
 mence in the days of the Cesars : but it was to become the kingdom 
 of the mountain. It was, indeed, to become a great mountain, and fill 
 the whole earth. This building is composed of a succession of foun- 
 dations, provided only that all the popes are successors of Peter, in 
 virtue of his being the rock. To have this whole building at the 
 foundation, or to be always laying new foundations in every election 
 of a pope is rather a singular idea, which grows out of the extravagance 
 of the Romish assumption.
 
 HOMAN CATHOLIC HELIGIOJT. 113 
 
 The bishop observes that a headless trunk is worth nothing, and 
 would seem to think that our argument on that subject leaves th 
 church without a head. Has the church no other head than the pope? 
 Of whatever church the pope is head, that church is the body of the 
 pope : And is it Christ's body too ? _ The Romanists are the body of 
 the bishop's church cut the head off that body, or annul the pope's 
 assumption and you destroy its organization. The gentleman rightly 
 appreciates my argument: he feels that it makes the church of Rome 
 a headless trunk : but the mistake is in supposing that this annihila- 
 tion of the pretension annuls the church of Christ. Jesus Christ is in- 
 dependent of the pope. He is head ; and the saints of all ages are the 
 component parts of his spiritual, his mystical body. 
 
 The gentleman's allusion to the High Priest was peculiarly unfor- 
 tunate There never was but one high priest at a time : one in hea- 
 ven and one on earth is without a single hint or allusion in the Bible. 
 \Ve cannot now descant upon such an incongruity. 
 
 The word 'lyu? (Hierus) priest, occurs not once in the New Testa- 
 ment, in reference to Christian bishops, or deacons. It is only found 
 once, and that in the apocalyptic style, in all the Christian scriptures : 
 for the idea of any one officiating on the earth as a sacrificing priest, or 
 that Christian bishops have aught of a priestly character is anti-christ- 
 ian. But Christ is the anti-type of Aaron. The order of Aaron is ex- 
 tinct. The order of Melchisidec is the model of the Christian High 
 Priesthood. Christ is called of God as was Aaron : but he is called 
 to officiate after the order of Melchisidec. The doctrine of Protestants 
 is, that their High Priest made one great sacrifice for sin on earth : 
 and that he offered it in the heavens ; and that by one offering of him- 
 self, he has perfected the sanctified. " Brethren, consider the high priest 
 of our profession, Jesus Christ." He ever lives and ever intercedes, 
 and is able to save to the uttermost all that come by him to God. We, 
 therefore, need no high priest on earth. 
 
 The gentleman has told us too often of his love for America, and his 
 love for England. If he repeats these declarations so often, we shall 
 begin to think he loves too much in word, and too little in fact. He 
 tells you of 30,000 English bayonets employed in defence of the pa- 
 pacy. And what of this 1 England is the cradle of all political free- 
 dom. Our notions of free government were all promulged in English 
 books, and taught in English schools before they were imported here. 
 We have, indeed practised upon the science of free government more 
 than our mother country. But as in America, we tolerate all religions : 
 so the British empire in every country where she has territory or sub- 
 jects, supports and protects all. England tolerates every thing. She 
 supports Catholicism in Canada, Episcopacy in England, Presbyteri- 
 anism in Scotland, and Paganism in the East Indies. Is she not too 
 free and tolerant for my opponent, and for many Protestants ? ! She 
 takes no part against any religion. The popular doctrine in England 
 at this moment is, that Church and State ought not to be amalgama- 
 ted, or consociated under the same earthly head. Indeed, she is dis- 
 posed to follow her American children very far in this doctrine. 
 
 The bishop seems to apply to Peter what was common to all the 
 
 apostles, " Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound in 
 
 heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in 
 
 heaven." I remark noon this passage, that when the Messiah gave 
 
 K 2 8
 
 114 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the keys to Peter to open the kingdom of heaven to Jews and Gentiles, 
 he did not appropriate to him the sole and exclusive power of binding 
 and loosing: this power he bestowed on all the apostles. For after 
 Peter opened the kingdom, they all introduced citizens into it, as well 
 as he ; and had the same official power ; for as John says, chap. 20 : 
 he addressed them all "As my Father hath sent me, so do I send 
 you; whose soever sins you remit they are remitted to them, and whose 
 soever sins you retain they are retained !" This was spoken, in sub- 
 stance, repeatedly to them all. It is therefore asserting too much, to 
 say that Peter alone was gifted with this power. He only used it 
 first. They always exercised it in its true intent and meaning. I shall 
 be glad to resume again the regular order. 
 
 We have heard much about the bishops of Rome and how they can 
 be traced back even to Peter, &c., &c. I wish my learned opponent 
 would confine himself to the proposition in debate, and permit me to 
 go through with this argument, for succession. Then I will show of 
 how much value are the traditionary enumerations found in Eusebius ; 
 from whose authors I can make out two or three successions. 
 
 The gentleman brings up the erudition of the 4th century. I would 
 as soon call on people in this room for testimony that the battle of Ban- 
 ker's hill, or Blenheim was so and so fought not one of whom lived 
 at that time ; as on persons living in one century to prove what hap- 
 pened in centuries before they were born. In the fourth century there 
 is one writer testifies to the succession. What a decisive proof ! Is 
 there any testimony for the first two hundred years affirming this suc- 
 cession 1 I affirm that there is not. All the tradition on earth fails 
 just in this radical and essential point ! 
 
 Again : tradition is wholly silent on the election of the first popes. 
 No one pretends to tell how Peter and Linus and Clement were in- 
 vested with the office. Tradition is even in the hands of Catholics 
 ashamed to depose any thing upon this point. We all know how to 
 dispose of tradition three hundred years too late, in other matters; and 
 I think to the matter of fact people of this generation, it must appear 
 preposterous to prove an event by those who lived one, two, and three 
 hundred years after. 
 
 Irenaeus was introduced as a witness of Peter's having been bishof 
 of Rome : but Irenaeus does not say so on his own responsibility : foi 
 he lived at the close of the second century. With him it was only 
 hear-say. Again, his testimony of the church of Rome, having been 
 planted by Paul and Peter is certainly false ; and his saying that Poly- 
 carp was appointed bishop of Smyrna by the apostles, greatly weakens 
 his traditionary statements concerning the Roman see : for Polycarp 
 must have been ordained in the year 97, as he died in the year 147, 
 having been 50 years bishop of Smyrna. Consequently it was impos- 
 sible he could have been ordained by the apostles : but of this again. 
 While my opponent speaks so fluently of early fathers, and of the 
 short interval of two or three hundred years from Christ, he seems to 
 forget how long a hundred years is, and how few know much about 
 the events that happened a hundred years ago. Even now, in this age 
 of books and printing, and steam presses, and steam-boats, and rail- 
 oads, and general reading, how few of us could accurately, from me- 
 mory relate the history of the American Revolution ! And yet the gen- 
 tleman talks about the opportunities of a person to ascertain these his-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 115 
 
 toric facts, one or two hundred years after they occurred, from tradition 
 too, in an age when all these facilities which we enjoy were unknown. 
 Is not this tradition a very loose and uncertain witness 1 ? [Time 
 expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 Irenaeus lived in the second century. He was a disciple of Poly- 
 carp, who was a disciple of John the evangelist. Irenaeus, was bish- 
 op of Lyons in France. The chain of testimony consists of three links, 
 John the evangelist, Polycarp of Smyrna, Irenaeus of Lyons. John 
 told Polycarp what Jesus did Polycarp told Irenaeus what John had 
 told him, and Irenaeus bears testimony here. This edition was pub- 
 lished by a Protestant divine, named Nich : Gallaisus. It is dedicated to 
 Grindal, bishop of London ; and as I do not like to advance any thing 
 merely on Catholic testimony, I prefer the Protestant to the Catholic 
 edition of this father's works. Irenaeus distinctly says : " Since it 
 would be very long to enumerate in this volume the succession of bish- 
 ops in all the churches, by appealing to the tradition of a church the 
 
 GREATEST AND MOST ANCIENT AND KNOWN TO ALL, which W3S found- 
 
 ed and established at Rome, by the two most glorious apostles, Peter 
 and Paul ; a tradition which she has from the apostles, and the faith 
 which she announces to men, and which comes down to us through 
 the succession of bishops, we confound all those who in any way, 
 either through evil self complacency or vain glory, or blindness and 
 perversity gather otherwise than is meet. For with this church, on 
 account of her more powerful principality, IT is NECESSARY THAT 
 EVERY CHURCH AGREE, that is th* 1 faithful who are on all sides, in 
 which church, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved by the 
 faithful who are on all sides." Iren. lib. in. chap. 3, (adversus haere- 
 ses.) 
 
 Eusebius, has preserved for us a letter, written by the martyrs who 
 suffered in Gaul, in the 19th year of Antonius Verus, and who were 
 charged by the Pagans, as they say in their address to their fellow- 
 citizens in Phrygia, " with feasts of Thyestes, (who ate part of hia 
 own son,) and the incests of CEdipus, and such crimes as are neither 
 lawful for us to speak nor to think, and such indeed, as we do not be- 
 lieve were committed." In this document the martyrs commend Ire- 
 naeus, then a presbyter of the church of Lyons, to pope Eleutherus, 
 whom Irenaeus appealed to on the subject of the Quarto-deciman con- 
 troversy. I have this letter here in Greek. It may perhaps have 
 more authority if I read the original. 
 
 Thus do we perceive that Eleutherus was styled "father and bishop 
 of Rome," by thes>? 'Ilustrious confessors of Jesus Christ, and hu 
 favor invoked in behalf of their brother. 
 
 In book in. chap. 3, (the title of this chapter is, of the apostolic 
 tradition, or the succession of bishops in the churches from the apos- 
 tles.) "These blessed apostles (Peter and Paul), founding and insti- 
 tuting the church, delivered the care of administering it to Linus, of 
 whom Paul makes mention in his epistle to Timothy. To him suc- 
 ceeded Anacletus, after whom Clement obtains the episcopacy, in 
 the third place from the apostles, who had seen and conferred with the 
 apostles, who had heard their preaching sounding in his ears, and had
 
 116 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 with his own eyes heheld their traditions. Nor was he the only one- 
 there were many more yet living who had been taught by the apostles. 
 Under this Clement, when no inconsiderable discussion occurred 
 among' the brethren at Corinth, the church of Rome addressed to them 
 most forcible letters, gathering them together in peace, repairing their 
 faith, and announcing to them the traditions they had recently receiv- 
 ed from the apostles. To Clement succeeded Euaristus, and to Euaris- 
 tus, Alexander; next was Sextus, sixth from the apostles, and after 
 him Telesphorus, who also endured a most glorious martyrdom ; then 
 Hyginus, afterwards Pius, and after him again Anicetus. But when 
 Soter had succeeded Anicetus, now in the twelfth place from the apos- 
 tles, Eleutherus hath the episcopate." There is then the fullest mani 
 festation that one and the same vivifying faith has been handed down 
 in the church and preserved to the present day. I would fain read 
 the res* of this admirable chapter, but enough here is the volume to 
 which all who are anxious for more proof are invited to refer. 
 
 Tertullian, a little later says, confounding the heretics of his day 
 "let them produce the origin of their churches, let them display the 
 succession of their bishops, so that the first may appear to have been 
 ordained by an apostolic man, who persevered in their communion." 
 Lib. de praescrip. He then enumerates the pontiffs from St. Peter, to 
 his own time in the Roman see, and concludes by the memorable 
 words, " Let heretics exhibit any thing like this." The evidence 
 of Eusehius is also before you. On this subject I have one remark to 
 make, which no one in this assembly who sincerely desires to know 
 the truth, and of such I trust, the number is not small, will hear with 
 indifference. This is, that in the letter of Cornelius, bishop of Rome, 
 to Fabius, bishop of Antioch concerning Novatus, which is given in 
 full by Eusebius, and is a faithful exhibition of the doctrines of the 
 whole church at that early period, there is not a single doctrine or 
 usage mentioned, which is not taught and observed in the Catholic 
 church in this very city, at this very hour. Is not this an admirable 
 proof of the apostolicity of our church ] The supremacy of the pope 
 in the supplying of vacant sees, the sacraments of the holy eucharist, 
 baptism, confirmation, orders, a hierarchy, bishops, priests, deacons, 
 subdeacons, acolytes, exorcists, readers, porters, or janitors; asylums 
 for the needy and afflicted one bishop in a Catholic church ; the 
 right of excommunication, acquiescence of other bishops, personally 
 testified or by letter, in the judgment of the bishop of Rome, &c. 
 &c. &c. In the same letter we see heretics pictured to the life, the 
 errors and evil practices of some modern sectarians described and 
 strongly reprobated, viz : the forcing of communicants to take an oath 
 never to quit a church they have joined. This I know to have occm- 
 red in Maryland, and I presume it is not uncommon. 
 
 Three o'clock P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 The last half hour of the gentleman was spent in culling antiquity 
 to find some collateral evidence in attempting to defend the great point 
 of the succession of pontiffs ; and with what success you have all seen. 
 His sensibility on the present occasion is truly gratifying. His con- 
 duct here shows that he perceives it to be vital, supremely essential 
 to his system to make Peter bishop of Rome, and to fix the first twen-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 117 
 
 ty nine links in the apostolic chain. But the barrenness of ancient 
 history cannot be remedied in the nineteenth century. He brought 
 forward one fragment of antiquity on the subject ; and it is the only 
 fragment on which Eusebius himself relies. In truth that fragment, 
 the Latin version of Irenseus, is the only fragment of antiquity now 
 extant, or extant in the time of Constantine, from which any thing 
 jan be gleaned on this subject. And he never once says that either 
 Paul or Peter separately or jointly were bishops of the church of Rome ! 
 And here again I cannot suppress my astonishment at the choice of 
 the Romanists : Why they did not make Paul rather than Peter 
 bishop of Rome. In the first place he was a bachelor ; and that is 
 now a most cardinal point : again, he informs us that " he had the care 
 of all the churches." He says, moreover, that he is not behind the 
 chief of the apostles. This is rather disrespectful of pope Peter ! 
 It could be so easily proved, too, that he was once at Rome (though 
 a prisoner for two full years.) Now, if he did not plant the church 
 of Rome ; he cerlainly watered it. He labored more abundantly than 
 all the other apostles. Is it not then ten fold more probable that 
 Paul rather than Peter was bishop of Rome 1 But probability will 
 not do in the case. We must have the strongest evidence : we must 
 have contemporary testimony : we cannot prove a fact by witnesses 
 who did not see it. W 7 e require the evidence of sense. We should 
 not believe the records of Christ's actions, even, unless we received 
 them from eye and ear witnesses. To illustrate the difficulties that 
 environ my ingenious opponent, I will suppose a case like the one he 
 has to manage. Suppose that in the year one thousand, a tradition 
 had been current that a certain bridge over the river Tiber had been 
 built in the time of the apostles, and that Peter laid the corner stone 
 of the Roman abutment. Some incredulous persons began then to doubt 
 of the matter, and called upon those who affirmed that Peter laid that 
 stone to prove it. They go to work. They found very many believ- 
 ing it in the 10th century: fewer in the 9th, fewer in the 8th, fewer 
 in the 7th, till within 200 years of the time, they find only one person 
 that affirms faith in it, and with him it is an unwritten tradition. All 
 record ceases. There is a perfect chasm of 200 years without a sin- 
 gle witness. Hew shall they throw a bridge over this chasm 1 
 Where is tradition during this period] Is there not one voice? NOT 
 ONE. But they say it is only two hundred years ! But according to 
 all the laws of mind and society, these two hundred years should 
 have the most witnesses : for, the nearer we approach any true event, 
 the more numerous are the vouchers of its reality and authenticity. 
 Therefore the total failure of testimony during that period is fatal to 
 the credibility of the tradition. But they say, it was traditionary for 
 two hundred years: but who can prove the tradition? It is as hard 
 to prove this tradition as the fact ! To prove the existence of it first, 
 nd then the authenticity of it afterwards, is only rising from the po- 
 sitive to the superlative difficulty. We can as easily build a house in 
 the air eighteen stories high, leaving out the two basement stories, as 
 prove the truth of an event 1800 years old, finding a chasm of 200 
 years in which there is not one word about it. The church of Rome 
 believes many miracles of her own on mere tradition. There is a le- 
 gend in Ireland to this day, commonly believed, that St. Patrick 1200 
 years ago literally sailed from that country to Scotland on a millstone. 
 Now, if we trace this back we shall find the evidence diminishes
 
 118 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 with every century until you come within two or three centuries of 
 the time assigned. Then it comes to a solitary individual, who heard 
 some one say, that he heard another one say, that such a one 
 dreamed so ! 
 
 I think it would be well to advert more pointedly to that law of 
 mind, that the testimony of a fact is always best and strongest be- 
 cause of the number and opportunity of the witnesses at the time, or 
 near /Aj time it actually existed. For example, at this day, there are 
 many biographies of Washington and narratives of the revolutionary 
 war ; some four or five hundred years hence there will be but one or 
 tiro. This is the established order of things. Genuine evidence 
 diminishes as we descend from, and increases as we ascend up to the 
 events, or facts recorded. All history is proof of this. It is a law 
 of evidence, and a law of the human mind. Therefore, had Peter 
 been bishop of Rome, we would, as we advanced upwards have found 
 much more evidence of it than in the third and fourth centuries. But 
 on the subject of tradition, 1 will gratify my audience with a few re- 
 marks from Du Pin : certainly he had no temptation to weaken its au- 
 thority. 
 
 "Criticism is a kind of torch, that lights and conducts us, in the obscure 
 tracts of antiquity, hv making us able to distinguish truth from falsehood, his- 
 tory from fable, and antiquity from novelty. 'Tis by this means, that in our 
 times we have disengaged ourselves from an infinite number of very common 
 errors into which our fathers fell for want of examining things by the rules of 
 true criticism. For 'tis a surprising thing to consider how many spurious book* 
 we find in antiquity; nay, even in the first ages of the church. Several reasons 
 induced men to impose books upon the world, under other men's names. 
 
 The first and most general, is, the malice of heretics; who, to give the great- 
 er reputation to their heresies, composed several books, which they attributed 
 to persons of great reputation; in which they studiously spread their own er- 
 rors, that so they might find a better reception, under the protection of thesfi 
 celebrated names. And thus the first heretics devised false gospels, false acts 
 and false epistles of the apostles, and their disciples: and thus those that cam*-, 
 after them published several spurious books, as if they had been written by or 
 thodox authors, that so they might insensibly convey their errors into the minds 
 of their readers, without their perceiving the cheat. 
 
 The second reason that inclined people to favor books under other men'l 
 names, is directly contrary to the first; being occasioned by the indiscreet piety 
 of some persons, who thought they did the church considerable service in forg- 
 ing ecclesiastical or profane monuments in favor of religion and the truth. And 
 this idea prevailed with some ancient Christians to forge some testimonies in be- 
 half of the Christian religion, under the name of the Siljk, Jlferciirius Tris- 
 tnegistits, and divers others: and likewise induced the Catholics to compose 
 some books, that they might refute the heretics of their own times with the 
 greatest ease. And lastly: the same motion carried the Catholics so far, as to 
 invent false histories,false miracles, andfalse lives of the saints, to keep up th$ 
 iely of the faithful. 
 
 The third reason of the forgery of some books, keeps a middle way between 
 those we have alread}- mentioned ; for there have been some persons in the 
 world, that have been guilty of this imposture, without any other design, than 
 to divert themselves at the expense of their readers, and to try how nearly they 
 could imitate the style of other men. Hence it is, that some authors have com- 
 posed treatises under St. Cyprian's, St. Ambrose's and Si. A uslin's names 
 * * * * * desiring rather (as the Abbot of Billi says,) to ap- 
 pear abioad, and be esteemed under other men's names than to continue despis 
 ed. and be buried in darkness, by writing in their own. And these are the rea- 
 sons that may have occasioned the forgery of books; malice, indiscreet piety 
 and the humors of men. 
 
 But beaiiKs these reasons that have advanced this trade of forgery, th*:re are
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 119 
 
 icveral others that have occasioned the setting authors' names to several books, 
 which they nevt r writ. 
 
 Tis very ill done to conclude that such a book is spurious, because it pinch- 
 es us, and afterwards to starcli lor reasons why it may be thought so." [Pre- 
 face, p. 6, 7. 
 
 We select only one of all these judicious and weighty remarks, 
 from one of the most learned of Roman Catholics, viz. " that the Cath- 
 olics themselves have INVENTED FALSE HISTORIES, FALSE MIRACLES, AND 
 FALSE LIVES OF THE SAINTS," to promote piety in their own members, 
 from which I emphatically ask the question : What is an article of 
 fait h icorth which is founded alone upon the traditions of that church ?. 
 I will only add, these are the words of Du Pin, a learned and authen- 
 tic ecclesiastical historian, whose work is published by the authority 
 of the learned doctors of the Sorbonne. 
 
 I have, let me now add, strong suspicions of the authenticity of 
 that passage of Irenasus. The Greek original in the first place is 
 lost : and in the second place the Latin translation was not found for 
 some hundreds of years afterwards. In the third place, two things 
 asserted by Irenaeus are not true : 1st, that Peter and Paul founded 
 the Roman church ; whereas it has been shown by Paul's letter to 
 the Romans, not to have been the case. 2d. This same Irenaeus says, 
 that Polycarp was ordained by the apostles, when according to Poly- 
 carp himself, he was not ordained till the year 97, when all the apos- 
 tles were dead save John, and there is no document to prove that even 
 John lived till that time. Thus dispose we of Hainan traditions. 
 
 The gentleman first introduced this authority which I have in my 
 hand an Episcopalian doctor one of the most learned authors of the 
 present day, George Waddington " History of the Church, 1834." 
 This author enumerates the bishops of Rome; but listen to his own 
 candid testimony. In his chronological table of eminent men, and of 
 the principal councils, he says : 
 
 " The succession of the earliest Bishops of Rome and the duration of their go 
 vernment, are involved in inexplicable confusion." 
 
 But I have here before me the Romanorum Pontificum Index a 
 chronological index of the Roman pontiffs, prefixed to Eusebius. I 
 have compared it for the first two centuries with Eusebius and some 
 of the primitive fathers, on whose authority it partially rests, and I can 
 say with confidence there is no faith can be reposed in it. I find the 
 authorities on which its assertions rest sometimes obscure, frequently 
 contradictory, and often at variance with other facts which they assert; 
 involving the credibility of the whole story of the successions from 
 different chairs. There are the following traditions to be collected 
 from Eusebius and his fathers for only the first five links of this chain 
 
 1st. Lineage. 2nd. Lineage. 3rd. Lineage. 4th. Lineage. 
 
 1. Peter. ' 1. Linus. 1. Peter. 1. Peter. 
 
 2. Linus. 2. Anacletus. 2. Anacletus. 2. Clement. 
 
 3. Cletus. 3. Clement. 3. Clement. 3. Linus. 
 
 4. Clement. 4. Sixtus. 4. Alexander. 4. Cletus. 
 
 5. Anacletus. 5. Alexander. 5. Evaristus. 5. Alexander. 
 
 I might argue this subject for hours and hours, but it is not worth 
 it. I do not like to imitate rny opponent in dilating upon matters,which, 
 whether true or false, dc not atfect the points at issue the weight of a fea- 
 ther. But the display we have now made of the beginning of succes- 
 sion, according to various traditions and statements, is susceptible of 
 immediate proof, and shows now vacant and dubious these oral and
 
 iiiO DEBATE ON THE 
 
 hearsay traditions are. Is not Waddington justified in saying "/Ai* 
 matter is involved in inexplicable confusion?" and well it is that saving 
 faith depends not upon such testimony! 
 
 I have said the Romanists have never been uniform in electing their 
 popes. I can show some six or seven different modes of filling 
 the chair of Peter, equally approved by the church of different 
 ages. The chair has often been filled by bribery, by force, by the 
 bayonet, and by all sorts of violence. It has been filled by men and 
 Doys, and by all sorts of characters. But of this more fully at an- 
 other time. 
 
 The gentleman remarked, on Saturday, that the pope is not infalli- 
 ble. The question was not about the man, but the pope. I take him 
 at his word, and will now prove, that neither the present pope nor his 
 predecessors are successors of Peter; because Peter was infallible, 
 both in doctrine and in discipline. How, then, can these fallible 
 gentry these fallible popes be successors to Peter, in the capa- 
 city of officers, when they have not the grace of office, my opponent 
 himself being judge? 
 
 I shall now attempt continuously to show, that if even Peter had 
 been placed by a positive precept in the office of vicar and head of the 
 church, all the official grace of such an appointment has failed by the 
 various schisms in the Roman see. The chain has been broken ; for 
 Roman Catholics themselves admit, at least, twenty-two schisms; 
 some count twenty-six. Protestants can find twenty-nine. I have al- 
 ready shown that the hook and the first link must be better secured, 
 if not welded ; for Peter the hook and first link has not yet been fas- 
 tened to the right place ; and some of the first links are so entangled 
 that Eusebius, the pope, and G. Waddington, cannot strengthen them. 
 And to quote the words of A. Pope, not the pope, if one link be missing, 
 " Tenth or ten thousandth breaks the chain alike." 
 
 Ah me ! I am jostled out of my course again ! The mention of 
 Eusebius reminds me that the bishop has quoted him against the No- 
 vatians, &c. But what avails the testimony of Eusebius as a sectary? 
 It is quoting a Jansenist against a Jesuit a Calvinist against an Ar- 
 minian a Romanist against a Protestant. Eusebius speaks as a his- 
 torian, and he speaks as a sectary; sometimes Arlan, perhaps, some- 
 times Trinitarian , but certainly opposed to Novatus and his party. 
 It is very hard for a warm partizan, in any case, to state his opponent's 
 views fairly. I have never yet heard any one oppose Calvinism, or 
 Arminianism, just precisely as it was. There is some little difference 
 or other in the most equitable hands, which the opposite party would 
 ot have stated just so; and we know how often the merits of contro- 
 versy rests upon these minute matters. Novatus and Cornelius were 
 both elected bishops of Rome, and a controversy arose on their respec- 
 tive claims. In the course of the controversy, we learn, that it turned 
 on these two points : 
 
 " That Cornelius admitted those who had been guilty of Idolatry to communion ; 
 and Novatus taught that the church neither could nor ought to admit those to the 
 communion that had apostatized." Du Pin. Vol. I. p. 135. 
 
 Novatus was the rival of his friend Cornelius, and he regards him 
 as an anti-pope ; he is, indeed, called anti-pope 1st. And, at this day, 
 we cannot tell whether Novatus or Cornelius was the successor of 
 Peter . So tb* first schism commenced, and we look for the faithful
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 121 
 
 witnesses against Roman assumption from that hour amongst the Re- 
 monstrants call them the Novatians, Puritans, or Protestants. 
 
 The second schism we shall notice is that between Liberius and 
 Felix, A. D. 367. , 
 
 " Constant! us beingenraged against St. Athanasius, as supposing him the cause 
 of that enmity which his brother Constans had against him, Liberius as to this 
 answered wisely, you ought not, sir, to make use of bishops to revenge your 
 quarrels ; for the hands of ecclesiastics ought not to be employed, but only to 
 bless and to sanctity. At last Constantius threatened him with banishment; 'I 
 have already,' says he, ' bid adieu to my brethren at Rome, for the ecclesiastical 
 laws are to be preferred before my living there.' Three clays time were given 
 him to consider of it, and because he did not change his opinion in that time he 
 was banished two days after to Berea a city of Thrace. The emperor, the em- 
 press, and the eunuch Eusebius,. offered him money to bear the expenses of 'his 
 lourney, but he uefused it, and went away cheerfully to the place of his banish- 
 ment. The clergy of Rome having lost their head, took an oath to choose no- 
 body in the room of Liberius as long as he was alive ; but Constantius, by the 
 management of Epictetus bishop of Centumcellar in Italy, procured one Felix a 
 deacon to be ordained bishop, who was himself also one of them that had sworn 
 not to choose a bishop in the room of Liberius * * * But Liberius, who had 
 given proof of so great constancy in time of peace, could not long endure the 
 tediousness of banishment ; for before he had been two years in it, he suffer- 
 ed himself to be over persuaded by Demophilus bishop of that city, of which he 
 was banished, and did not only subscribe the condemnation of St. Athanasius ; 
 but he also consented to an heretical confession of faith." Du Pin. Vol. I. p. 190. 
 
 Now, if we take Liberius for the true pope, we must take an Jlrian 
 head; for it must be acknowledged that he subscribed the heretical 
 and Arian creed ; and, perhaps, at this time the majority of the Roman 
 Catholic church were Arians ; but that is not the present inquiry. 
 
 We shall now read an account of the third schism : 
 
 DAMASUS, BISHOP OF ROME. 
 
 " After the death of pope Liberius, which happened in the year 369, the see 
 of Rome being vacant for some time, bv reason of the caballing of those that pre- 
 tended to fill it, Damasus at last was chosen by the greater part of the clergj 
 and people, and ordained jay the bishops. But on the other side, Ursinns, 
 or rather Ursicinus, who was his competitor for the popedpm, got himself 
 ordained b^ some other bishops in the church of Sicinus. This contest caused 
 a great division in the city of Rome, and stirred up so great a sedition there as' 
 could hardly be appeased. The two parties came from words to blows, and 
 many Christians were killed in the churches of Rome upon this quarrel. The 
 governor of Rome called Prcetexltis, being desirous to allay the heat of this 
 contention, sent Ursicimts into banishment bv the emperor's order: but big 
 banishme it 'did not perfectly appease the quarrel; for the partizans of Ursicinus 
 assembled still in the churches of which they were possessed, without ever com- 
 municating with Damasus; and even when the emperor had ordered that their 
 churches should betaken from them, they still kept up their assemblies without the 
 City, so that it was necessary at last to drive them quite out of Rome. And yet all 
 this did not hinder Ursicinus from having his secret associates in Italy and 
 t Rome. The bishop of Puteoli called Florentius, and the bishop of Parma were 
 most zealous for his interests. They were condemned in a council held at Rom 
 in the year 372, and afterwards banished by the authority of the emperor. How- 
 ever they found means to return into their own country, and stirred up new 
 troubles .there. They got pope Damasus to be accused" by one Isaac, a Jew. 
 This accusation was examined in a council of bishops held at Rome, in the year 
 378, which declared Damasus innocent of the crime that was laid to his charge. 
 This council wrote a letter to the emperor Gratian, praying him to take some 
 order for the peace of the church of Rome. The emperor wrote to them, that 
 Ursicinus was detained at Cologne, that he had given order to banish Isaac in- 
 to a corner of Spain, and to force the bishops of Puteoli and Parma, out of theii 
 country. This did not hinder Ursicinus from returning' into Italy in the yeai 
 381, where lie stirred up new tumults, and endeavored to pre-engage the empe 
 ror: but the bishops of Italy being assembled in a council at Aquileia, in UM 
 L 16
 
 122 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 year 381 , wrote so smartly to him, that he banished Ursicinus forever, ami left 
 Damasiis in peaceable possession of the see of Rome, in which he continued uiv- 
 til the year 384." Du Pin. Vol. I. p. 226,227. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELI, rises 
 
 In the 2nd. century lived Tertullian a priest in Africa. He showed 
 how clear was the chain of tradition he says distinctly that Peter wa* 
 bishop of Rome. I am going to quote another splendid passage from 
 his testimony- But first let me ask, how conld a massive, an enormous 
 volume like this (holding it up) of which the zeal of the early Christ- 
 ians, has made so many copies ; and" a portion of which, the admirable 
 apologetic, or defence of our Christian ancestors, was addressed to the 
 Pagan Emperors, have been vitiated ? It was spread over the whole 
 world it was read with avidity by Christians and heathens. It is 
 authentic history and based on testimony far more credible than we 
 possess of the genuineness of Homer, or Horace, of Tacitns, or Cicero. 
 We could not believe any fact of history, not even our title to our houses 
 and other goods and chattels, without admitting it. How else but by 
 such records, do we know with certainty of events of which our senses 
 have not taken cognizance, of which we hare no personal knowledge, that 
 a few years ago we fought a hard battle with England and gained out 
 independence ? That our general was named Washington, and that he 
 was aided by La Fayette 1 Comparatively recent as these events he, they 
 are matters of tradition! and tradition is but another name for history. 
 Admit my learned opponent's principle, and the world will be turned 
 topsy-turvy. We cannot be sure of any thing. I now cite Tertullian; 
 and mark, I pray you, the clearness and force of his reasoning in the 
 following syllogism, for apostolical succession. 
 
 Tertullian de praescriptioae adverass hasrcticos, lib. p. 394. " If the Lord Jesus 
 Christ sent his apostles to preaeh, no other preaches are to be received than 
 those whom he commissioned : for BO one knows the Father but the Son. and: 
 they to'whom the Son hath revealed him, nor is the Son seen to have reveal- 
 ed him to any others than the apostles, whom he seat to preach what he reveal- 
 ed to them. Now what they preached, that is to say, what Christ revealed tc 
 them, I will here lay down as a principle (hie praescribam) cannot be otherwise 
 proved than by the same churches which the apostfes, themselves, founded, by 
 preaching to them, themselves, both by word of mouth, aa they say, and, after- 
 wards, by their epistles. If this be so, k rs therefore plain that all the doctrine 
 which agrees with these apostolic churches, the matrices and. original* (or exem- 
 plars) of faith, is to be reputed true, as undoubtedly. holding that which the 
 churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, and Christ fron> 
 God : but that all other doctrine is to be preiudged take,, as teaching contrar* 
 ly to the churches and to the apostles, to Christ and to God. AM, therefore, 
 that remains now to be done is to demonstrate that the doctrine we preach, a* 
 alreadv explained, has been handed down to us from the apostles, and thus con- 
 vict all other doctrines of falsehood " Thev, (the heretics) object that Peter 
 
 was reprehended by Paul. But let those wno make this allegation shew that 
 Paul preached a different gospel from what Peter preached and the other apos- 
 tles. If Peter was reprehended for withdrawing, through human respect, from 
 intercourse with the Gentiles* with whom he previously associated, this was a. 
 fault of conduct (conversations) not of preaching. He dfd not, on this arcountt 
 preach a. different God from the Creator, a different Christ from the son of Ma- 
 ry, a different hope from that of the resurrection and, (to refute these here- 
 tics,) I will answer as it were for Peter, that Paul, himself, said that he made 
 himself, all things to all nren, a Jew-to the Jews, and no Jew to those who were 
 ,\r JHWS. that In- mav g-ain all. So that Paul reprehended, un>l< > certain cir- 
 cumstances, in Peter, what he, himself, under certain Circumstances, did."
 
 HOMAN' CATHOLIC RELIGION. 123 
 
 But I :night read the whole book of prescriptions by TertulJian 
 against heretics. 
 
 The fish story again here is Henry's exposition of the Bible. The 
 principal meaning, in his view, is that which I have given. 
 
 Could Paul, my friends, claim to be the chief of the apostles? He 
 had probably done more than any man then living against Christianity, 
 until prostrated by anger and mere}', on the road to Damascus " Saul, 
 Saul, why persecutes! thou me" changed him from a wolf to a lamb, 
 from a persecutor to an apostle. 
 
 Eusebius informs us that Paul of Samosata, was deposed by a coun- 
 cil in consequence of the heresy introduced by him at Antioch, of which 
 a detailed account had been rendered by the council to Dionysius, bish- 
 op of Rome. Paul being unwilling to leave the building of the 
 church, "an appeal was made to the emperor Aurelian, who decided 
 most equitably on the business, ordering the building to be given up 
 to those whom the Christian bishops of Rome and Italy should write." 
 Another Pagan, Ammianus Marcellinus, giving an account of the 
 persecution raised by the emperor Constantius against the famous 
 patriarch of Alexandria St. Athanasius, tells us that this emperor 
 strove hard to procure the condemnation of Athanasius by Liberius, on 
 account of the supreme authority enjoyed by the bishops of the Roman 
 see." " Even from the mouths of babes and sucklings," says the 
 Scriptures, " hath God made perfect praise," I may observe, that he 
 has extorted testimony from Pagan kings and historians, to prove the 
 authority of the bishop of Rome throughout the Christian world. 
 
 My friend has introduced the subject of unity, in connection with 
 tradition. We shall argue that, if he pleases, from the Bible; but in 
 the mean time let us hear Cyprian, a bishop of Carthage, in Africa, 
 on this subject, in the 3d. century. I am bold to say, you have never 
 heard argument stronger, illustration more apposite, or language more 
 beautiful, than what this father employs. 
 
 Cyprian, cle Unitate Ecclesiae Catholicse, p. 181, and De Simplici Pries. The 
 primacy is given to Peter that the church and the chair of Christ may be shewn 
 to be one. And all the apostles and shepherds, but there is seen but one flock, 
 fed by all the apostles with unanimous consent ; can he who holdeth not 
 this unity, believe he holds the faith ? Can he who resists and opposes the 
 church, who forsakes the chair of Peter, on which the church was founded, flat- 
 ter himself that he is in the church, while the apostle Paul teaches the same 
 thing and shews the sacrament of unity, saying, "ONE BODY AND ONE SPIRIT, 
 
 ONE HOPE OF YOUR VOCATION, ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE 
 
 GOD." Let no man deceive the. brotherhqod by a lie ; let no man, by perfidi- 
 ous prevarications corrupt ihetniA of faith ! 'fbe episcopacy is one, each se- 
 parate part being consolidated in one. Th church too is one, with luxuriant 
 fertility extending her branches throughout. As there are many rays ol light, 
 but no more than one sun, many branches, but only one trunk, heM fast in the 
 earth bv its tenacious root, many streams gushing from one fountain, but all 
 blendeu in their source. Sever a ray from the sun, the unity of light suffers 
 no division ; break a branch from the tree, the broken branch will bu J no more, 
 cut off a stream from the source, the severed stream will dry up. So likewise 
 the chuich, irradiated with the light of the Lord, diffuses her rays throughout 
 the universe. The light, however, which is every where diffused is one, nor is 
 the unitv of the body separated. She spreads her copious streams, but there is 
 one head, one origin, one blessed mother with a numerous progeny. We are 
 her offspring, we are nourished with her milk, we are animated with her spirit, 
 He can no longer have God for his father, who has not the church for his moth- 
 er. If any one out of the ark of Noe could escape, so likewise hn that is out 
 of ihe church may escape. The Lord says, I and the Father are one : again, it 
 is written of the Father, and Sou, and Holy Ghost: ' and these thrte are oue,'
 
 124 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and can any one imagine that the unity which proceeds from divine strength 
 and which is maintained by divine sacraments, can be torn asunder in the church 
 and destroyed by the opposition of discordant heart* ?" 
 
 I will now go over the ground, my friend travelled this morn- 
 ing. He said we allowed that we had two high priests on earth. I 
 protest against the gentleman's saying for me what I have not said. 
 One high Priest we have in heaven, God. He has a vicar on earth, 
 the pope. But that vicar wields no authority but from God.. 
 
 1 have, again, been reprehended for endeavoring to gain friends by- 
 expressing a liking for the English people, the Irish, and the Ameri- 
 cans. But, my friends, have I done them more than justice ? Have I 
 swen^irom the truth? Have I not said that the Englisr had a 
 thousand faults? [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'c/ocA, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBKLL rises 
 
 We have had a learned discussion on the unity of the church. \\ 7 e 
 can sit and patiently hear my opponent while he fills up his time by 
 reading the views of the saints on unity or any thing else he may 
 deem edifying. But as this is not the business now before us, we 
 shall be glad he would choose some other time for it. On this sub- 
 ject we have no controversy at the present time : and that the church 
 should be one, and that she is one virtually and in fact, we doubt not. 
 All that has been read by my opponent on this subject is wholly a 
 free will offering, instead of that argument which the occasion demands. 
 
 Was Peter ever bishop of Rome] That indeed was a question : but 
 is it a standing question ? How often will my opponent recur to it 
 without proving it? He says, indeed, that Irenseus says that he was : 
 but I say, not a line can be shown from Ireneeus nor any other writer 
 of the first two centuries affirming in so many words that Peter was 
 bishop of Rome! Let him then refute me at once, by producing the 
 passages. He might have heard so. He has produced Tertullian as 
 a commentator or a retailer of traditions. That you may know some- 
 thing of Tertullian as a theorist, and commentator, I will read you by 
 way of offset a sample or two, simply to show how much these opi- 
 nions are worth. He speaks very advantageously of custom and 
 tradition, and relates several remarkable examples of ceremonies which 
 he pretends to be derived from tradition. 
 
 " To begin," savs he, "with baptism, when we are ready to enter into the wa 
 ter, and even before we make our protestations before the bishop, and in the 
 church, that we renounce the devil, all his pomps and ministers : afterward, we 
 are plunged in the water three timee, and they make us answer to some things 
 which are not precisely set down in the gospel : after that they make us taste 
 miik and honey, and we bathe ourselves every dny, during that whole week. Wfe 
 receive the sacrament of the eucharist, institute.! by Jesus Christ, when we eat, 
 and in the morning assemblies we do not receivt- it but from the hands of thoie 
 that preside there. ' We offer yearly oblations for the dead in honor of the mar- 
 tyrs. We believe that it is not law'ful to fast on a Sunday and to pray to Goa 
 kneeling. From Easter to Whitsuntide we. enjoy the same privilege. We take 
 great care not to suffer any part of the wine and consecrated bread to fall to the 
 ground. We often sign ourselves with the sign of the cross. If you demand a 
 law for these practices taken from scripture, we cannot find one there ; but we 
 must answer, that Via tradition that has established them, custom has authorized 
 (hem, andfaith has made them to be observed." Tertull. De Corona MilitU. 
 
 When Tertullian asserts a fact, I believe : but when he relates a 
 dream, a guess, an opinion, or reports a tradition, I listen to him as 
 to the speculations of a contemporary. You shall have it both in 
 Latin and English.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGION. 125 
 
 jam qui voles curiositatem melius exercert in negotio salutis tuae, per- 
 cfesiasapostolicas, apud quas ipsaj adhuc cathedrae apostoloruin suis iocis 
 
 Age 
 
 curre ecc 
 
 prassideritur, apud quas ipsre authenticae literac recitantur, senates voceni, et 
 reprajsentantesfaciem uniuscujusque. Proxima est tibi Achaia? Habes Corintburn. 
 Si non' longe es a Macedonia, habes Philippos, habes Thessalonicenses. Si po- 
 teg in Asiani tendere, habes Ephesum. Si autem Italia: ad j aces, habes Romam, 
 iilide nobis quoque auctoritas pnesto est." 
 
 " Coiiie now, you who are desirous n>ore fully to devote yourselves to the great 
 affair of your salvation, hasten to the apostolic churches. Still do the very 
 chairs of the apostles yet stand in their own places: still are their authentic lettert 
 recited, which sound forth their very tones, and which faithfully exhibit their 
 'cry countenances. If you are in Achaia, you have Corinth: it' in Macedonia, you 
 have Philippi and Thessalonica. If you journey into Asia, you have Ephesus. 
 If Italy be your residence, vou have Rome," &c. 
 
 On this precious excerpt I will only remark that it fully proves, 
 
 1. That the authentic copies or autographs of the apostolic epistles 
 were extant in the time of Tertullian, in those churches to which 
 they were addressed. 
 
 2. That the superiority of these churches named above others, so 
 far as salvation was concerned, was, that they had these authentic 
 epistles carefully preserved and read. 
 
 3. That as respected authority in the grand affair of salvation, in 
 the judgment of Tertullian, Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, Ephesus 
 and Rome were equal. Pardon the digression. The extract is worth 
 a volume in prostrating the arrogant pretensions of Rome. 
 
 One word on the text, as commented on by Matthew Henry. ] 
 have had his work in my library for twenty five years. He is a high- 
 ly esteemed practical commentator : but is not ranked among critics. 
 But yet he decides nothing for my opponent. He admits that it may 
 be either the one or the other explanation. But mind me. The Roman 
 Catholic doctrine requires the explanation "lovestthou me more than 
 these love me ;" because it was on account of a supremacy of love 
 over all the apostles, that it claims for Peter the supremacy. Bui 
 Henry admits that Christ may have alluded to the nets and boats and. 
 occupation of Peter; while he refers to or says, "do you love me 
 more than your companions." The Messiah never, indeed, had any 
 jealousy of that sort. His. comment on John xxi. 15, reads: 
 
 " Lovest thou me more than these" 1 Better than James or John thy intimate 
 triends, or Andrew, thy own brother and companion? Tnose do not love Christ 
 aright, that do not love him better than the best friend in-the world, and make 
 it appear, whenever they stand in competition, or, more than these things 
 these boats and nets! Those only love Christ indeed, that love him better than 
 all the delights of sense and- all the occupations and profits of this world. Lov 
 est thou me more than these? If so, leave tRem to employ thyself wholly in 
 feeding my flock." Henry's Commentary. 
 
 But I would like to read what this commentator says about the rock. 
 
 Matthew -xvi. 18. " And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this 
 rock, I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." 
 
 Peter's confession contains that fundamental truth, respecting the person and 
 offices of Christ, upon which, as on a rock, he would build his church. JVor 
 could the powers of death or the entrance into the eternal world, destroy the 
 hope of those who should build on it. Nothing can be more absurd than to sup- 
 pose that Christ meant that the person of Peter was the rock, on which the 
 church should be builded ; except it be the wild notion that the bishops of Rome 
 have since substituted in his place.! Their rock is not as our rock, our enemies 
 thcm<( Ives being judges. Without doubt, Christ himself the rock and tried 
 foundation of the church, and woe be to him who attempts to lav any other. /6. 
 
 If then, Matthew Henry is good autnority on one point he is good 
 n the other. 
 L 2
 
 126 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 Bishop Oley of Tennessee has been unceremoniously dragged intr 
 this controversy. He is a gentleman for whom I entertain a very 
 high regard : and while we differ on "some questions, concerning dio 
 cesan episcopacy, we perfectly agree on the import of ';*gu>- (Hierus) 
 a priest, as applied to Christians. He has no idea, more than myself 
 of a Christian hierus^ or priest offering sacrifices for sins on earth. He 
 has not answered, indeed, seven letters addressed to him by myself on 
 bishop Onderdonk's tract on diocesan episcopacy : but yet it is not 
 too late. We expect one of these bishops to reply to them. 
 
 The Roman Catholics alone contend that priests, by which they 
 mean an order of clergy, can offer sacrifice for sins. Nay, indeed, 
 Mr. Hughes in his controversy with Mr. Breckenridge, says, " To offer 
 sacrifice is the chief official business of the priests." p. 288. Hence, 
 we learn that even in this enlightened land and 19th century, there 
 are persons amongst us claiming the power of making sin offerings 
 and expiating and forgiving sins !! 
 
 We now resume the history of schisms in the succession : 
 
 We last read you the contentions and havoc of human life on the 
 succession of Damasus. The emperor at that time decided the con- 
 troversy by banishing Ursinus, and on the decision of that emperor 
 now rests the faith and salvation of the Roman church themselves 
 being judges. And yet, my learned opponent, in some of his speeches 
 affects to tell you that emperors have nothing to do, no right to in 
 terfere in councils, or with church officers ; and here, and on numer 
 ous occasions, we find them filling Peter's chair, making vicars ot 
 Christ, and heads for his church.!! 
 
 We cannot rehearse all the schisms, and shall therefore give only 
 a specimen. We take another instance of an imperial pope one of 
 an emperor's creation. 
 
 "Alter the death of pope Zozimus, the church of Rome was divided about 
 the election of his successor. The archdeacon Eulalius, who aspired to the 
 bishopric of Rome, shut himself up in the church of the Lateran, with part of the 
 people, some priests, and some deacons, and made them choose him in Zozimus' 
 room. On the other side a great number of priests, several bishops, and part 
 of the people, being assembled in the church of Theodora, elected Boniface. 
 Both were ordained; Eulalius was ordained by some bishops, among whom was 
 the bishop of Ostia, who used to ordain the bishop of Rome.- Boniface \va 
 likewise ordained by a great number of bishops, and went to take possession of 
 St. Peter's church. 
 
 Svmmachus, governor of Rome, having tried iu vain to make them agree, wril 
 to the emperor Honorius about it. In his letter of the 29th of December, 418, 
 he speaks in Eulalius' behalf, and judges Boniface to be in the wrong. The 
 emperor believing his relation, sent him word immediately that he should 
 expel Boniface and uphold Eulalius. The governor having received this order 
 sent for Boniface to acquaint him with it, but he would not come to him, so that 
 the governor sent to him to signify the emperor's order, and kept him from re- 
 turning into the city. The bishops, priests, and the people that sided with 
 Boniface, wrote immediately to the emperor to entreat him that he would order 
 both Eulalius and Boniface to go to court, that their cause misrht there be 
 judged. To satisfy them, the emperor sent to Symmaclms an order of 30th of 
 January, 419, signifving that he should enjoin Boniface and EulaUus to bo at 
 Ravenna about the 6th of February. Honorius convened some bishops thither 
 to judge of their cause; and that they might not be suspected of favoring any 
 one side, he commanded that none of those who had ordained either of them, 
 should be a judge in the case. The bishops that were chosen to judge- this 
 cause being divided, the emperor put off the judgment till .."l/ny, and forbade 
 Eulalius and Boniface to go to Rome; and sent thither .lc!ii!Utis, bishop of 
 Spoleta to perform the Episcopal functions during the Easier holidays ; ir
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION 127 
 
 which time he prepared a numerous synod, and invited the bishops both of Africa 
 and Gaul; but Eulalius could not endure that delay, and spoiled his business 
 by his impatience; for whether he distrusted his right, or whether he was of a 
 restless temper, lie returned to Rome the 16th of Juarch, and would have staid 
 there notwithstanding the emperor's orders, which obliged Symmachus to use 
 violm<"e to drive him out of Rome; and the emperor having been informed of 
 his disobedience, waited for no other judgment, but caused Boniface to be put 
 in possession in tin? beginning of April, 419." Du Pin, vol. I. p. 417. 
 
 The Holy Spirit, then, by the emperor Honorius, an Aria,n, too 
 (if I recollect right,) establishes a vicar for Christ in the person of 
 Boniface I. What, says bishop Purcell, have emperors to do with 
 Christ's church ? ! Once, then they had a great deal to do with it ; 
 and where is infallibility now ? 
 
 Next comes pope Symmachus. Again the church's head is the 
 fruit of bloodshed and war. 
 
 "After the dtath of pope Anaslasius, which happened at the end of the 
 year 498, there was a fierce contention in the church of Rome between Lau- 
 rentius and Symmachus, which of them two was duly promoted to that see. Sym- 
 machns who was deacon, was chosen, and ordained by the far greater number; 
 but Fzsliui a Roman Senator, who had promised the Emperor Jlnastasius, that 
 his edict of agreement with the bishop of Rome should be signed, procured 
 Laurent ius to be chosen and ordained. This, schism divided the church and 
 the city of Rome, and the most eminent both of the clergy and the senate took 
 part with one of these two bishops: but at length both parties agreed to 
 wait upon King Theodoric at Ravenna for his decision in the case, which was 
 this, That he should continue bistwp of Rome, who had been Jirst chosen, and 
 should be found to have the far greater number of voices for lam. Symmachus 
 had the advantage, of Laurentius on both these accounts, and so was confirmed in 
 the possession ot the holy see, and he ordained Laurentius bishop of JVbcero, 
 if we may believe Anastasius. At the beginning of the next year he called a 
 council, wherein he made a canon against the ways of soliciting nuns' voices, 
 which were then used for obtaining the papal dignity: but those who opposed the 
 ordination of Symmachus, seeing him possessed of the holy see against their mind, 
 used all their endeavours to turn him out of it, for which end they charged him 
 with many crimes, they stirred up a part of the people and senate against him, 
 and caused a petition to be presented to king Theodoric, that he would appoint 
 a delegate to hear the cause. He named Peter bishop of Jlltinas, who deposed 
 the pope from the government of his diocese, nnd deprived him of the possessions 
 of the church. This division was the cause of so great disorders in Rome, that 
 from words they came many times to blows, and every day produced fighting and 
 murders: many ecclesiastics were beaten to death, virgins were robbed, anddriven 
 away frcmi their habitation*, many lay-men were wounded or killed, insomuch that 
 not only the church, but also the city of Rome suffered very much by this schism. 
 
 King Theodoric being desirous to put an end to these disorders, called a council; 
 wherein the bishop being possessed with a good opinion of Pope Symachvs, would 
 not enter upon the examination of the particulars alleged against him, but only 
 declared him innocent before his accusers, of the crimes that were laid to his 
 charge: and they prevailed so far by their importunity, that the king was satisfied 
 with this sentence, and both the people and the senate who had been very much 
 irritated against Symmachus, were pacified, and acknowledged him for pope. Yet 
 ome of the discontented party still remained, who drew up a writing against the 
 synod and spread their calumnies, forged against Symmachus, as far as the east. 
 The emperor A tiaslasius objected them to him, which obliged Symmachus to write 
 a letter to him for his -awn vindication; but notwithstanding these efforts of riis 
 enemies, he continued in possession of the holy see until the year 514 wherein 
 he died." Du Pin. Vol. I. p. 527. 
 
 If we cannot find Christ's church some where out of the Roman 
 shurch at this time, we shall have a hard task to find her there ! 
 
 Again, we shall read a few words concerning Boniface II. 
 
 "Soniface, the M road o:' that name, the fir<tpope of the nation ui (!> Gaihs, was 
 prom >\ . nd< r t!.. n ip;n of king Alariru< on <!:< i 1th -vix oi'Oc- 
 
 toho , in the year 529. At the same time one part ot' the clergy chose. Dioscorus
 
 128 . DEBATE OJf THE 
 
 who was formerly one of the deputies sent into the east by Hormisdas. Boniface 
 was ordained in the church of Julius, and Dioscorus in that of Coustantine. But 
 this last died the- 12th day of November. Boniface seeing himself left in sole 
 possession used his utmost endeavors to bring over those who had been ot the 
 other party : he threatened them with an anathema, and forced them to subscribe. 
 He called together the clergy, and condemned the memory of Dioscorus. accusing 
 him of simony. He proceeded yet further, and, as if it were not enough for him 
 to be secured of the holy see for himself, he would also appoint himself a suc- 
 cessor, and having called a synod, he engaged the bishops and clergy by oalh, and 
 under their hands, that they should choose and ordain in his room the deacon 
 Vigilius after his death. This being against the canons, he himself acknowledged 
 publicly his fault, and burned the writing which he extorted from them." Du Pin. 
 Vol. I. p. 542. 
 
 What an excellent head, truly, for the church of Christ ! 
 
 We shall next see, that other women besides queen Elizabeth, 
 whom my opponent denounces for being head of the English church, 
 had something to do in pope manufacturing. Pope Sylverius and 
 pope Vigilius come next: 
 
 "The deacon Vigilius remained at Constantinople after the death of Agapetus, 
 who had fora longtime aspired to the bishopric, and made use of this occasion 
 to get himself promoted to it. He promised the empress, that if she would 
 make him pope he would receive Theodosius, Authimus, and Severus into his 
 cormnnnion, and that he vvould'approve their doctrine. The empress nut only 
 promised to make him pope, but also offered him money if he would do what 
 she desired. Vigilius having given the empress a_ll the assurances that she could 
 wish, departed with a secret order addressed to Bellisarius'to make him success- 
 ful in his design. Vigilius being come into Italy, found all things well prepared 
 for him, the siege of Rome was raised when he arrived there, but during the 
 3Je"ge Si'lverius was suspected to hold correspondence with the Goths, and so he 
 was rendered odious for refusing expressly to accept the empress's proposals of 
 receiving Authimus. Thus Vigilius having delivered to Bellisarius the ordei 
 which he brought, and having promised him two hundred pieces of gold over 
 and above the seven hundred which he was to give him, found no great difficulty 
 to persuade him to drive away Silverius." 
 
 * * * * * 
 
 " This was put in execution, he was delivered to the guards of Vigilius, and 
 he was banished into the Isles of Pontienna and Panctataria, which were ovel 
 against the mount Cirrellus, where he died of a famine in great misery, if we 
 may believe Liberatus. Procopius, in his secret history, seems to insinuate, that 
 he was killed by one named Eugenius, a man devoted to Antonina the wife of 
 Bellisarius: but what Procopius says, may be understood not of the death of 
 Silverius, but rather of his accusation or a'pprehension." 
 * * * * ****** 
 
 " Although Vigilius was promoted to the see of Rome, by a wav altogether 
 unjust, yet he continued in the possession of it after the death of Silverius, and 
 was acknowledged for a lawful pope, without proceeding to a new election, or 
 even confirming that which had been made. The conduct which he had observ- 
 ed during this pontificate answered well enough to its unhappy beginning. He 
 had at first approved the doctrines of Authimus, and that of the Acephali, to sat- 
 isfy the empress: but the fear of being turned out by the people of Rome, whom 
 he hated, made him quickly recall this approbation; yet he did not, by this, 
 gain the hearts of the Roman?. They could not endure an usurper, who Laving 
 been the cause of the death of their lawful bishop, would abuse them also. They 
 accused him also, of having killed his secretary with'a blow of his fist, and of 
 having whipped his sister's son till he died. The empress who was not satis- 
 fied with hiri) because he had gone back from his word, sent Authimus to Rome 
 with an order to bring him into Greece, and at his departure the people gave 
 him -ui sorts of imprecations.'" Ib. Vol. I. page 552. 
 
 We shall only at this time give the details of another column of 
 the history of the popes in the work before us. It speaks for itself 
 tells how all the evil passions of human nature co-operated in the 
 election and creation of Christ's vicars.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 129 
 
 Under head " An account of the popes, and of the church of Rome, from the 
 time of Sylvester II. to Gregory VII. 'After his death there was a schism in 
 the church of Rome, between Benedict VIII. son to Gregory, the count of 
 Frescati, who was first elected by his father's interest; and one Gregory, who 
 was elected by some Romans, who puted Benedict. He fled to Henry, king of 
 Germany, who immediately raised forces, and marched into Italy to re.-establish 
 him. As soon as the king" arrived, Gregory fled for it, and Benedict was re- 
 ceived without any opposition. He conferred the imperial crown on that prince, 
 and on queen Chtmegonda his wife. Benedict died in the year 1034, and sorue 
 authors say, that after his .death he appeared, mounted on a black horse, and that 
 he showed the place where he had deposited a treasure, that so it might be dis- 
 tributed to the poor, and that by these alms, and the prayers of St. Odilo, he was 
 delivered from the torments of the other life. We have only one Bull of his, 
 in favor of the Abby of Cluny." 
 
 " The count of Frescati, that the popedom might be still in his family, caused 
 his other son to be elected in the .room of Benedict VIII. though he was not 
 then in orders. He was ordained and called John, which, according to us, is the. 
 eighteenth of that name, but according to others the twentieth. 'Tis said, that 
 g(.me time after this pope being sensible that his election was vicious and simo- 
 niaral, he withdrew into a monastery there to suffer penance, and that he forbore 
 performing any part of his function, till such time as he was chosen again by the 
 
 clergy." 
 
 "John AV ill. dying JNovr. 7, in tne ye: 
 ed his sou to be seated on St. Peter's chair. He was nephew to the two last 
 
 XVIII. dying Novr. 7, in the year 1033, Alberi count of Frescati, caus- 
 
 ll 
 
 topes the count's brothers, and was not above eighteen years of age at the most, 
 le changed his name of Thophylact into that of Benedict IX. 
 
 Peter Darnien, speaks of him as a man that lived very disorderly, and was very 
 unworthy of that dignity to which he had been advanced by the tyranny of his 
 father. However, he enjoyed the popedom very quietly for ten years together; 
 but at last the Romans, weary of his abominable irregularities, outed him, and 
 put up in his place, the bishop of St. Sabina, who took upon him the uame of 
 Sylvester III. He enjoyed his dignity but three months; for though Benedict 
 voluntarily resigned the popedom, yet he returned to Rome, and with the assis- 
 tance of Frescati's party, drove out his competitor, and re-assumed the papal 
 chair. But being altogether uncapable of governing it, and having nothing more 
 in his thoughts than the gVatifying of his brutal appetite, he made a bargain about 
 the popedom with John Gracian, archbishop of -the .church of Rome, and made 
 it over to him for a sum of money, reserving to himself the revenues due from 
 England to the holy see. This Gracian took upon him the name of Gregorv VI 
 In the meantime, king Henry, who had succeeded his father, Conrad, in the year 
 1039, being incensed against Benedict, who had sent the imperial crown to the 
 king of Hungary, after he had defeated that prince, resolved to march into Italy 
 to put an end to that schism. After he came thither he caused these three popes 
 to be deposed in several synods as usurpers, simonists, and criminals. Benedict 
 fled for it ; Gregory VI. was apprehended and afterwards banished; and Sylves- 
 ter III. was sent back to his bishopric of St. Sabina. He caused Suidger, bishop 
 of Hamberg, to be elected in their stead, who took upon him the name of Cle- 
 ment II. and was acknowledged as lawful pope by a. I the world. He crowned 
 Henry emperor, and as he was waiting upon him home to Germany, died beyond 
 the Alps, October 7, in the year 1047, nine months after his election. Immedi- 
 ately upon this, Benedict IX. returns to Rome, and a third time remounts the 
 papal chair, which he held for eight months, notwithstanding the emperor had 
 lent from Germany Poppo, bishop of Bresse, who was consecrated pope under the 
 title of Damasus II. but he did not long enjoy that dignity, for he died of poison, 
 as is supposed, at Palestrina, three and twenty days alter his coronation." 
 
 " It is no wonder that these popes have not left us the least monument of their 
 pastoral vigilance, either in councils or by letters, since all their care and aim 
 was how to gratify their ambition and the "rest of their passions, without watch- 
 ing over the"flock of Jesus Christ." Dii Pin, vol. ii. p. 206. 
 
 Observe, a single count has the controlling power of some three 
 pope's during this administration ; and may be said to have the church 
 under his special management! Comment on such a narrative is un- 
 necessarv. [Time expired.] 
 
 9
 
 130 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Half-past 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 I should prefer replying to the last part of my friend's argument at 
 once, but order requires that I should follow him through a'l his points. 
 
 We Were told the ' old Irish story' of St. Patrick sailing on a mill- 
 stone. Well, the Iris!) have always been remarkable for telling a good 
 story; but this is told for them, and it is not even witty, much less has 
 it any bearing on the argument. There is not, I presume, one educated 
 Catholic in the world who believes a tale so ridiculous. For my own 
 part, I had never even heard it before ; but I have heard of a life of St. 
 Patrick and St. Bridget, written by some young Protestant wag who gath- 
 ered together all the absurd stories he could find and gave them this name. 
 My friend must have felt the want of better arguments when he intro- 
 duced such a silly tale, at this debate, for the purpose of weakening 
 the authority of the most sacred documents. I will not call this pro- 
 fane, but I must say, that, in my opinion, it is indecorous. 
 
 I have been charged with exciting the laughter of this audience, at 
 the expense of my friend ; this is not my fault ; what alternative but 
 ridicule for the story we have just heard 1 ? It was thus that E lias 
 mocked the false priests of Baal, by saying, " Cry louder on your 
 god peradventure he sleepeth and must be awaked." 3d. Kings 
 15, 27. 
 
 Admit my learned opponent's reasoning, and you cannot be sure that 
 sver there was such a man as Peter: admit it, and you cannot pre- 
 tend to say that you have had grandfathers or grandmothers, or at least 
 that they had had any themselves : you have never seen them ; how then 
 can you be sure they ever existed ! Sometimes forged notes get into 
 circulation ; conclude with my friend, that you may as well part com- 
 pany at once with the genuine notes you may possess, for you can-nc 
 longer prove them, to any man's satisfaction, to be worth having. I 
 will go still farther : admit Mr. C.'s curious reasoning, and you can 
 never be sure that such a personage as Jesus Christ ever existed, much 
 less that he wrought miracles to prove the divinity of his mission ! 
 You did not see the miracles ; the book that records them was written 
 long after they occurred ; and many of the most important portions of 
 this very book were doubted of for upwards of 300 years after Christ, 
 even by Luther himself, in the enlightened 16th century ! His author 
 Du Pin, says there were abundance of false gospels, false epistles, false 
 acts, in the early ages. How then, according to his principles, can we 
 be sure of the authenticity of a single book of the Old or Xew Testament, 
 seeing we have no voucher for the truth but the testimony of men ? 
 Here are chasms to be bridged, and links in the chain of scriptural . 
 testimony, to be welded, for full 300 years, ay, 1600 years, before the 
 various books of scripture were collected together : and when they 
 were collected, this collection was made by men, who, he says, were 
 liable to be mistaken like ourselves; and who knows to this day but 
 they were mistaken ! Such are the horrid consequences of his illogi- 
 cal reasoning another sad illustration that, for tne deserter from the 
 Catholic church, there is no resource but to deny every thing, to be- 
 come a deist. I would advise my friend, when he goes back to Bethany, 
 to prove in the Harbinger that such a thing as the present controversy 
 never occurred. I am sure that he can make some people believe, all 
 editorials to the contrary notwithstanding, that it is all a hoax.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 131 
 
 He gratuitously mixes np the names of the first five or six popes, in 
 a way unknown to antiquity, whereas Eusebius, Optatus, Tertullian, 
 and Irenseus, agree perfectly in the enumeration of Peter, Linus, Anacle- 
 tus, Clement, Evaristus, Alexander and two of these authors have 
 heen translated by Protestants ! The mixture of the books of scrip- 
 ture is for him a far more insurmountable difficulty. There was much 
 disputing for hundreds of years as to the time and place where the 
 epistles and gospels were written ; must we, therefore, reject them 
 altogether 1 According to his rule of reasoning, we should reject 
 them ; but, thank God, Catholics admit no such rule. A few discre- 
 pancies about the minor points, where there is perfect unanimity as to 
 the substance, only confirm our conviction of the historian's good faith. 
 And there is as much indisputable testimony of the succession in the 
 chair of Peter, as there is to prove any book of scripture whatsoever. I 
 might, in fact, say there is more. I have already nailed Dupin to the 
 counter; he leans on a broken reed. He quotes St. Paul, to prove that 
 neither he nor Peter founded the church of Rome, whereas St. Paul 
 says no such thing, but only that they should not indulge in foolish 
 disputes about the ministers who had preached to them the word of 
 life, "I am for Paul, I am for Apollos," but give all glory to Christ 
 who died for them. There were Christians at Rome before St. Petei 
 or St. Paul went thither. The Roman soldiers who saw Christ cruci- 
 fied, and witnessed the prodigies attending his death, were, doubtless, 
 many of them, as well as the ceQturion who smote his breast, and cried 
 out " truly this man was the Son of God," converted to Christianity ; 
 who, when they returned home to Rome, related what they had seen, 
 to their countrymen, and made others converts. The apostles, after- 
 wards, went to Rome and founded the see. So itwas in England. Long 
 before Gregory sent St. Augustin to that country, there were Catholics 
 there even in the days of pope Eleutherius. 
 
 What was the use of quoting Waddington as an author of infallible 
 weight with me? He could not avoid making splendid acknowledg- 
 ments to the church of Rome. The truth" was too strong for him. But 
 if we believe a man when he testifies against himself, is that any rea- 
 son we should believe him when he testifies/or himself? In fact, the 
 inexplicable confusion of which Waddington speaks, is not to be found 
 in any of the historians I have named and whose works I have exhi- 
 bited from which too I have read to this assembly. If any confusion 
 exist, it is with respect to the time when each succeeded each, al- 
 though in this respect the earliest historians agree, as you have seen. 
 Linus, Cletus, (or Anencletus,) and Clement, are all spoken of in the 
 epistles of St. Paul. They held a conspicuous rank in the church ; 
 their names and services in these high places were often seen, and 
 hence could have occurred a mixture of their names and of the dates 
 of their pontificates, among now remote historians. But in every case 
 of doubt as to scripture, or ecclesiastical history, the tests of sound 
 criticism must be applied, and then the sibyls and the Mercurius Tris- 
 megistus are sure to go overboard. " Opinionum commenta delet dies" 
 says Cicero, ^naturse judicia confirmat." Time exposes falsehood 
 and confirms truth. What Cicero says time does, a more respectable 
 agent, the church, has achieved she has selected the genuine books 
 of scripture and stamped forgery upon such as were spurious. Had 
 she not done this where would have been the Bible? There are othei
 
 132 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ways of detecting error Du Pin has fold you of them. " A third class," 
 says he, "forge for their diversion." You have all heard of the late 
 prodigious humbug at Exeter Hall, England. The king suppresses the 
 Orange lodges. The bigots of the nation rally. They invite a general 
 convention of their brother bigots throughout the empire; a champion, 
 it was the notorious Dr. McGhee, is invited from Ireland. He pro- 
 fesses to have discovered a document penned by the reigning pontiff, 
 and addressed to the clergy of England and Ireland, that recommended 
 all the crimes that could be thought, of to be committed against the 
 Protestants. The crowd is gathered. The conquering hero comes. The 
 air is vexed with the cries of "down with the Catholics," "long 
 life to McGhee !" He opens his mouth, but he cannot speak. His emo- 
 tions overpower him some broken accents the title of the document 
 is heard. "Simpleton," says a tremulous voice from the crowd, "the 
 Rev. Mr. Todd, of Trinity college, Dublin, forged and published that 
 document for his own diversion and that of his friends, jost to see how 
 he could imitate the pope's Latin, but never dreaming that any man 
 of sense could believe that he intended to impose it on the world as a 
 genuine production of the pope !" McGhee was thunderstruck the 
 meeting horrified, and one by one they slunk away to their homes, 
 muttering benedictions upon Irish bull-makers! This was diverting; 
 but the consequences of such diversions were not always as harmless 
 to the poor Catholics ; in fact they had frequently cost them torrents 
 of blood. The celebrated Dr. Parr, Dr. Johnson, Nix, Whittaker, all 
 agree that the Catholic is the most calumniated society on earth. 
 
 My friend should know that the Latin translation of Irenaeus is good 
 authority, according to the soundest rules of criticism. It was made 
 in the lifetime of Irenaeus. who wrote the preface to it himself; by 
 birth a Greek, he was bishop of a Latin see, (Lyons,) and he says 
 he hopes the reader will excuse the roughness of his style, for he had 
 been so long among the Celtae that he had lost the purity of his native 
 tongue. His proximity to the apostles is proof of the clearness of 
 the testimony in his day. Polycarp was converted in the year 80 
 and St. John lived to the close of the first century so that John 
 taught Polycarp, and Polycarp taught Irenaeus. We all know why 
 Jacob (supplanter,) Sara (Lady,) Isaac, (laughter,) Peter, (a rock,) 
 were so called was there a reason for the giving of these names to 
 all but Peter] The reason my friend alleges is not if ; Peter was not 
 the first convert, it was his brother brought him to Christ. John i. 
 41, 42. The word head is figurative; this remark cuts up the web 
 of sophistry my friend has spun around it. The pope is Peter's suc- 
 cessor without being all and every thing that Peter was, without being 
 a fisherman, a swordsman, a man of impulsiveness, a martyr. He 
 succeeds to all the power necessary to guide the church. The other 
 apostles were infallible, as my friend admits, and yet their successors 
 claim not to be so, individually ; it is enough for every purpose of 
 good government that they are so when they abide in the doctrine of the 
 entire church. Liberius never erred in faith; and Du Pin himself is 
 proof of his orthodoxy. He defended the faithful Athanasius against 
 Constantius and the Arians his accusers! And yet Mr. C. would 
 have us believe Liberius an Arian ! He preferred, he said, to go into 
 exile rather than break the ecclesiastical laws against his ownconscU 
 ence. Is not this one of the most heroic sayings recorded of popes? 
 The formula he signed in exile atPerea, in Thrace, was not heretical.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 133 
 
 Out when this act was abused by the Arians, Liberius wept bitterly 
 for the violent interpretation the document was made to bear. The 
 clerir-y of Rome appreciated the pontiff's magnanimity, they had no 
 doubt of his faith ; they would have no other pope Felix, the crea- 
 ture, of the emperor Constantius, they/ justly despised ; and, as in 
 every similar instance, the righteous cause prevailed ; God was 
 stronger than the emperor, truth than error. So did the synod ap- 
 prove Damasus, and reject his rival. 
 
 Tertullian was quoted about the Eucharist, and prayers for the 
 dead ; I will show you how his testimony is in our favor. Talking 
 of Corinth, Ephesus, and other cities, he says to the inquirer, if you 
 want to find the established doctrine and live near Corinth, go to 
 Corinth to find it out; if near Ephesus, to Ephesus; if near to Rome, 
 go to Rome, and so on. This only proves that the doctrine at all 
 these places was exactly the same ; but what is the argument ? Does 
 it prove that all these churches were equal in authority to Rome 1 
 Suppose a man in New York writes to me to know what the Catholic 
 doctrine in any point is I tell him he must apply to the bishop or 
 clergy of the churches of New York for information. Does it follow 
 from this that I question the preeminent authority of Rome ? Does it 
 prove any thing whatever ? It is so far in our favor that it proves a 
 uniformity of doctrint like the unity of that light which proceeds 
 from a common fountain. 
 
 Mr. C. is stricken with the authority of Peter it haunts him like 
 a spectre throughout this discussion -.it meets him at every turn and 
 corner of his argument, well ! The Greek word ntiu&n means rule, 
 guide, govern, as well as " feed." See Homer, passim. " nsipni *.**/" 
 was the epithet applied usually to Agamemnon. Feed my lambs means 
 all the flock, with the subordinate pastors spread over the universal fold. 
 The evangelist lakes care to tell us, in the parable of the temple, that 
 ht spoke <f tht temple of his body. He explained, as St. John says, more 
 than all the books of the whole world could contain, to his disciples, 
 during the forty days from his resurrection to his ascension, spent^ as 
 the scripture assures us, in speaking to them of the kingdom of God, 
 as he every where called his church. Mr. C. says there is no priest 
 since Christ. I grant it, in the sense that the high priest holds the 
 place of Christ, derives his power from Christ. In this sense Christ 
 employs the priest as his agent, and exercises by him his own priest- 
 hood, in which God the Father hath (Ps. 109) confirmed him by an oath 
 for ever. But in the sense that no such priest now ^xists, I cannot agre* 
 with the gentleman, for St. Paul says, thirty years after Christ's ascen- 
 sion, "/or every hi^h priest taken from among men, is ordainf.dfor mtn, 
 in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacri- 
 fices for sin. Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant 
 and err, because he himself also is compassed with infirmity, and 
 therefore he ought, as for the people so also for himself, to offer for 
 sins; neither doth any man take the honor to himself, but he that is 
 called by God as Aaron was." Heb. ch. 5, v. 1, 2, 3, 4. Does r.ot 
 all this prove a priesthood distinct from the body of Christians, thirty 
 years after Christ, as it exists at present? Does not St. Paul say, 
 we have an altar of which they cannot partake who serve the tabei- 
 nacle ? Hob. vi. 13, 10. And what was that altar for but for the sacri- 
 fices which the priests were taken from among men to offer'! [Time 
 expired.]
 
 134 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 TUESDAY,JANUARy I?TH, Half-past 9 o'clock, Jl. M. . 
 Ma. C AMI BELL rises 
 
 I intend if possible, to sum up this argument on my second propo- 
 sition this forenoon. I could wish that my friend, the bishop would 
 reply to me instead of anticipating propositions in advance, and of 
 reading or speaking of matters which are wholly irrelevant. He is 
 even now occasionally on my first proposition ; anon, on -the second ; 
 and instantly, on subjects which we have not agreed to debate. He 
 talks about my getting into thickets and circuitous labyrinths, with- 
 out seeming to perceive that I am in pursuit of him. He makes, pro- 
 positions and assertions for me which I never uttered, and spends, his 
 vime in descanting upon his own misapprehensions.* 
 
 I must however, intimate to him and my audience, my purpose of 
 ceasing to respond to any thing he may introduce not in reply to my 
 speeches. If I must lead the way ; he must follow. I cannot be de- 
 coyed into all the minor and remote points he may originate. I must 
 go on to sustain my propositions, whether he respond to them or not ; 
 and shall appropriate half an hour occasionally to such matters in his 
 speeclies as may call for my notice. 
 
 I cannot, therefore debate the priesthood, or any foreign topic. But 
 as the gentleman has again reiterated the charge, "feed my sheep," 
 and seems to make the whole merits of the question depend on the 
 meaning of the word sheep ; I will once more, and I think only once 
 more advert to it. It is universally admitted by Protestants and Cath- 
 olics, that it is the duty of pastors to feed the flock of their charge. 
 If there be a common duty in the ministry of the old and new law, it 
 is this. But it is essential to his argument to make the word *A/> sig- 
 nifying sheep denote clergy. This is an extraordinary assumption. 
 It would be a waste of time to argue against it. But that you may 
 see its absurdity, I will read from the Catholic version a part of the 
 I Oth chap, of John, substituting the bishop's definition for the term. 
 
 " He that entereth not by the door into the Ibid of the clergy, but cliiub- 
 'eth up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he. that entereth by the 
 door, is the pastor of the clergy. To this man the porter openeth, and the cler- 
 gy hear his voice ; and he calleth his own clergy by name, and leadeth them forth. 
 And when he halh let forth his own clergy, he go^th before them, and the 
 clergy follow him, because they know his voici. I am the door of the clergy. 
 And how many soever have come are thieves and robbers, but the clergy heard 
 them not. 
 
 llth verse. I am the good pastor. The good pastor giveth his life for his 
 clergy. But the hireling and he that is not the pastor, whose own the clergy 
 are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the clergy and fleeth; and the wolf 
 raveneth and disperseth the clergy. And the hireling flceth because he is a 
 hireling; and he hath no care of the clergy. I am the good pastor, and I know 
 mine, and mine know me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; 
 and 1 yield my life for my clergy. And other clergy I have that are not of this fold." 
 
 I submit this without comment to the good sense of my audience. 
 
 The gentleman may find it more to his account, or he is more ac- 
 customed to speak to the prejudices of that part of the community 
 
 * The other day the bishop asserted that / affirmed, the apostles wrote only to 
 Greek cities' This is not found in my speeches; for it is so gross an error that 
 I could not have uttered it, even in a dream. I request the reader to examine 
 my speeches for my own assertions; for he will frequently lind the bishop in- 
 stead of meeting his opponent, demolishing- men of straw of his own crtation.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 135 
 
 who rely on the authority of the Roman church without asking ques- 
 tions, who are told not to think or reason for themselves; but to be- 
 lieve in the church to them he may hold up his map triumphantly. 
 The face of Tertullian or Irenaeus on paper is as good to them as ten 
 arguments. But I speak to Protestants as well as Catholics; and,- 
 therefore, I mast reason, for they are a reasoning population. I ex- 
 pect them to d jcide by evidence, and not by authority. 
 
 Reference has been made to Waddington, on the papal succession. 
 His words were not correctly quoted by the gentleman, //z's interpre- 
 tation is rather an evasion of the question. It is to the succession it- 
 self he alludes. He cannot make it out : he acknowledges he can- 
 not ; nor can any living man. 
 
 To resume the history of the schisms. I will read a few extracts 
 that I have marked in a chronological table of the popes, which will 
 exhibit a bird's eye glance of the fortunes of the Roman see, for lit- 
 tle more than a single century. 
 
 1261. Alexander IV. dies June 24. The holy see vacant 3 months and 3 days. 
 The cardinals who proceeded to the election, not being able to pitch on one 
 among themselves, chose Francis, patriarch of Jerusalem, who takes upon 
 him the name of Urban IV. and is consecrated Sept. 4. 
 
 1265. After a vacancy of four month*, cardinal Guy, the Gross, born in Provence, 
 is elected pope, r cb. 5, and consecrated Match 18, under the name of Cle- 
 ment IV. 
 
 1268. Clement IV. dies Oct. 29. The holy see lies vacant for two years, nine 
 months, and two days. 
 
 1271. The cardinals after a long debate- on Sept. 1, by way of compromisal 
 elected Thibald, arch deacon of Liege, native of Placenzia, who was then at 
 Ptolemais. 
 
 1276. Gregory X. dies Jan. 10. Peter of Tarentaise, cardinal bishop of Ostia, is 
 elected the 21st. under the name of Innocent V. After his death, which 
 happened June the 2d. cardinal Ottobon, a Genoese, is elected in his place, 
 July the 12th, and takes upon him the name of Adrian V. He dies at Viter- 
 bo, Aug. 18. without having been consecrated. Twenty-five days after, 
 cardinal John Peter, Jhe son of Julian, a Portuguese, is elected and consecra- 
 ted, Sept. 15, under the name of John XXI. 
 
 1277. John XXI. is crushed by the fall of the ceiling of the palace of Viterbo, 
 and dies May the 20th. Nov. 25, John Cojestan is elected, and takes the 
 name of Nicholas III. and consecrated Dec. 26. 
 
 1280. Nicholas dies Aug. 22. The holy see is vacant six months. 
 
 1287. Houorius IV. dies on April 5. The holy see vacant till April of the next 
 
 year. 
 1292. Nicholas dies on April 4. The holy see vacant two years three months 
 
 and two days. 
 
 1304. The dea'th of Benedict July 8. The holy see remained vacant till the 
 next year. 
 
 1305. Clement V. is chosen pope June 5. He is crowned at Lyons Nov. 11, 
 and resides in France. 
 
 1328. Lewis of Bavaria causes Michael Corbario to be chosen anti-pope, who 
 takes the name of Nicholas V. and is enthroned May 12. He was driven 
 out <if Rome, Aug. 4. 
 
 378. Gregory XI. died March 27th. The cardinals entered the conclave at 
 Rome, April 7th. The Romans required a Roman or an Italian pope. The 
 arch-bishop of Paris is chosen in a tumultuous manner, April 9th, and crowned 
 the 17th. under the name of Urban VI. The cardinals fly into Anagma. in 
 May, and protest against the election of Urban. They came to Rondi 
 August the 27th, enter the conclave, and chose, September 20th, the cardi- 
 nal of Geneva, who took the name of Clement VII. which caused a schism 
 in the church. 
 
 1370. Ck-iiif nt V III. flies to Naples, and from thence goes to Avignon, where 
 he arrived June 10. The competitors for the papa :y' condemn one another. 
 DuPln.-Fol.il.
 
 136 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Touching all that the gentleman has said or may say of the authen- 
 ticity of Du Pin, I observe that the reporters have recorded my de- 
 fence of his reputation. They will also have stated the fact that I 
 only quote him as authentic on such matters as all other historians tes- 
 tify. I will not then repeat the same defence again and again. 
 
 I know, indeed, that what is authentic with Jansenists may be he- 
 terodox with Jesuits, and vice versa. When the Romanists are 
 hard pressed, they have no English authentic historians. And when 
 we quote a Latin one, we are sure to err in tho translation. Bellar- 
 mine is repudiated by one party ; even Barronius is sometimes disal- 
 lowed. jStill being in Latin, he is more authentic than any other. 
 We shall therefore take from him a few words in confirmation of what 
 we read from the Decretals of Du Pin. Barronius, vol. vi. p. 562, A. D. 
 498, tells us that the emperor's faction sustained the election of Lauren- 
 tius to the papacy. In this struggle " murders, robberies and numberless 
 evils, were perpetrated at Rome." Nay such were the horrible scenes 
 that, says Barronius, " there was a risk of their destroying the whole 
 city." In the schism between popes Sylverius and Vigilius in the 
 sixth century, the latter, though an atrociously wicked man, "impli- 
 cated," says Barronius, " in so many crimes" that all virtuous men 
 opposed him, was raised to the papal chair. Yet this man was pro- 
 nounced a good pope. Barronius says he is not to be despised though 
 a bad man. Let every man recollect, "says he, that even to the sha- 
 dow of Peter, immense virtue was given of God !" (Bar. vol. vii. 
 p. 420.) 
 
 'In the midst of contentions which rent the Roman Catholic church, 
 pope Pelagius I. was chosen. This pope approved the council which 
 pope Vigilius had condemned. This increased the flames of eccle- 
 siastical war to such a degree that the pope could not find a bishup of 
 Rome, who could consecrate him; and he was constrained to beg a 
 bishoppf Ostium to do this service ; " a thing," says Barronius, "which 
 never had occurred before." (Vol. vii. p. 475.) 
 
 The popes Formosus and Stephen lived in the ninth century. The 
 latter, says Barronius, was so wicked, that he would not have dared 
 to enroll him in the list of popes, were it not that antiquity gives his 
 name. In the exercise of papal infallibility, he not only rescinded 
 the acts and decrees of his infallible predecessor Formosus; but collec- ' 
 ting a council of cardinals and bishops as bad as himself, he actually 
 had the old pope taken out of his grave; and he brought him into 
 court, tried, and condemned him; cut off three of his fingers; and 
 plunged his remains into the Tiber. See Platina's life of Stephen 
 VI. and Barronius do.' 
 
 'Barronius under the year 1004, names three rival popes, who per- 
 petrated the most shameful cjimes, and bartered the papacy, and sold 
 it for gold. He, though a Roman Catholic writer, calls them Cerber- 
 us, the three headed beast which had issued from the gates of 
 hell !' 
 
 Hear his words in his life of pope Stephen VII. A. D. 900. ' The 
 case is such, that scarcely any one can believe it, unless he sees it 
 with his eyes, and handles it with his hands, viz. what unworthy, 
 vile, unsightly, yea, execrable and hateful things the sacred apostolic 
 see, on whose hinges the universal apostolical church turns, has been 
 compelled to see, <fcc.' 
 
 ' Genbrard in his chronicles, under the year 904 says, " for nearly
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 137 
 
 150 years, about fifty popes deserted wholly the virtue of their predeces- 
 sors, being APOSTATE rather than APOSTOLICAL !' 
 
 'And to crown the climax, Barronius, under the year 912 adds : 
 " "What is then the face of the holy Roman church ! How exceed- 
 ingly foul it is ! When most potent, sordid and abandoned women, 
 (Meretices,) ruled at Rome: at whose will the sees were changed; 
 bishops were presented ; and what is horrid to hear, and unutterable, 
 FALSE PONTIFFS, the paramours of these women, were intruded into 
 the chair of St. Peter, &c." He adds, " For who can affirm that 
 men illegally intruded by bad women, (scortis) were Roman pontiffs !" 
 Again : " The canons were closed in silence ; the decrees of pontiffs 
 were suppressed : the ancient traditions were proscribed ; and the sa- 
 cred ceremonies and usages of former days were WHOLLY EXTINCT. 
 See his Annals A. D. 912.'* 
 
 Again : he relates that pope Alexander was elected by cardinals, 
 some of whom were bribed, some allured by promises of promotion, 
 and some enticed by fellowship in his vices and impurities to give 
 him their suffrages. He refers to various authors who complained 
 that he was famous for his debauchery ; he tells us of his vile exam- 
 ple in keeping a Roman strumpet Vanozia, by whom he had many 
 children ; that he conferred wealth and honors on them, and even cre- 
 ated one of them, Caesar Borgia (an inordinately wicked man) arch- 
 bishop of the church. Vid. Bar. Annals, vol. xix. p. 413 et seq. 
 
 ' The same writer (vol. ix. p. 145) records the election of Bene- 
 dict IX. at the age of twelve years, which he says was accom- 
 plished by gold, and he calls it (" horrendum ac detestabile visu") 
 " horrible and detestable to behold ;" and yet he adds that the whole 
 Christian world acknowledged Benedict, without controversy, to be a 
 true pope ! 
 
 STEPHEN VH. The unparalleled wickedness of this pope is conveyed in a sin- 
 gle line : [_Ita quidem passiisfocinonts homo quique tit fur et latro ingressus ett 
 in wile ovitim, laqueo vitam adeo infami exilu vindice Deo clausit.] " Thus per- 
 ished this villanous man, who entered the sheepfold as a thief and a robber; and 
 who in the retribution of God, ended his days by the infamous death of the hal- 
 ter." (Bar. vol. x. p. 742.) 
 
 Again, Barronius says of the 10th century : 
 
 " What tiien was the face of the Roman church ? . How very filthy, when the 
 most powerful and sordid harlots then ruled at Rome, at whose pleasure sees 
 were changed and bishoprics were given, and which is horrible to hear, and 
 most abominable their gallants were obtruded into the see of Peter, and made 
 false popes; for who can say they could be lawful popes, who were intruded bj 
 such harlots without law 1 There was no mention of the ejection or consent 
 of clergy; the canons were silent, the decrees of popes suppressed, the ancient 
 traditions proscribed, lust armed with the secular power, challenged all 
 things to itself. 
 
 **** 
 
 What kind of Cardinals, do you imagine must.then be chosen bv those mon- 
 ters, when nothing is so natural as for like to beget like ? who can doubt, but they 
 in all things did consent to those that chose them ? Who will not easily believe 
 that they animated them and followed their footsteps ? Who understands not, 
 ^hat such men must wish that our Lord would have slept continually, and never 
 have awoke to judgment to take cognizance of, and punish their iniquities." Ann. 
 Vol. x. 912. 
 
 Now if the gentleman objects to any of these quotations which 1 
 have hastily, but I believe most correctly made : the originals are 
 
 * Browulee's Letters on Rom. Oth. controversy, pp. 36, 37,38. 
 
 M 2 18
 
 138 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 here and let them be examined : For, these being admitted it is use- 
 less to object to Du Pin, who never uses so severe language against 
 the popes as Baronius and Genebrand", Platina and others. 
 
 Finally on this subject. For seventy years, there was no pope in 
 Rome, besides all the other interregnums. The pope resided at Avig- 
 non in France and left St. Peter's chair empty. For almost half a 
 century there were two popes, and two lines of popes existing at one 
 time one reigning in Italy, and one in France. And at last there 
 were three popes Benedict XIII. the Spanish pope, Gregory XII. the 
 French pope, and John XXIII. the Italian pope. Then the council of 
 Constance met A. D. 1414, and made a fourth, or true pope, and depos- 
 ed the three anti-popes. Such was the 29th schism in the papacy ! Is 
 there, may I not ask with all these facts before us, Is there any 
 man on earth that can have the least confidence in any pope as the 
 successor of Peter * A thousand questions the most learned and in- 
 tricate, which no living bishop has time or means to examine, must 
 be decided before he could rationally or religiously believe that the 
 succession from Peter has any existence at all : or, in truth, it cannot 
 be believed but upon mere authority ! 
 
 We now proceed to show that there has been no fixed and uniform 
 method of electing the popes. Indeed history and tradition furnish 
 us with no less than seven different methods. 
 
 1. Irenaeus. says, 'that tradition said, that Peter appointed his suc- 
 cessor.' And if he did, why do not all the popes follow his exam 
 pie ? for Irenasus is as good authority for this, as for that concerning 
 the founding of the church of Rome. 
 
 2. The priests and people are said to have often elected the first 
 popes ; oY, rather the bishops nominated and the people elected. I 
 ought to have observed distinctly, that there is as much sophistry in 
 the word pope as ever was played off on earth. The word pope, in 
 the east was first applied to all bishops, and is so used in Russia to 
 this day. It was in the 5th century applied to the senior bishops and 
 metropolitans of the west. But it was not until the time of Gregory 
 VII. that it was exclusively appropriated by his own innovation, to iht 
 bishops of Rome. 
 
 Hence, in this variety of acceptation, popes many were always in 
 the church, and were elected by the people. But the persons first 
 called popes and those now wearing the title, have no Bother resem- 
 blance than the common, name. 
 
 3. The emperors nominated and bishops elected, and the emperom 
 ppointed on their own responsibility. 
 
 4. Leo VIII. transferred the whole power of choosing the pope to 
 the emperor, being tired with the inconstancy of the Romans. 
 
 5. Barronius in his Annals, 112, 8, and sect. 141, 1, says, 'They 
 (the popes) were introduced by powerful men and women. // was 
 frequently the price of prostitution /' 
 
 6. By the decree of pope Nicholas II. in his Laeteran Synod : ' The 
 whole business was given over to the cardinals, an order of men, not 
 heard of for 1000 years after Christ. The popes n-w make the 
 cardinals, and the cardinals make the pope. What a glorious repub- 
 lic ! My friend, a staunch republican, agrees that a few men in 
 Romp should elect a head for the universal church ! But sometimes 
 
 7. General councils (as that of Constance, Pisa and Basil) took 
 upon themselves the making of popes, and, as we have seen, made a
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 139 
 
 fourth pope, when there were already three acknowledged by different 
 parts of the church. Can these facts be denied ? They CANNOT and 
 I presume, WILL NOT. 
 
 It is now affirmed that the intrigues of papal elections incompara- 
 bly surpass the intrigues of any court on earth. The politics of 
 France, of Italy, of Austria, are so incorporated with the schemes of 
 the cardinals, or so bias or bribe them, that on the election of a pope, 
 it is usually said, " Austria has succeeded" or " Spain," or " France 
 l.as prevailed this time !" In one word, the papal chair is the most 
 corrupt and corrupting institution, that ever stood on earth. The Ro- 
 man Cesars, or the Egyptian dynasties, were pure and incorrupt, com- 
 pared with this mammoth scheme of iniquity. On the whole premi- 
 ses, I ask, would the head of the church so jeopardize all the interests 
 of his kingdom as to make the popes of Rome, or faith in them es- 
 sential elements of his system of redemption, or necessary to the sal- 
 vation of any human being 1 ? I- 
 To recapitulate. This being a fundamental and primary essential 
 element of the Roman church, I have labored it more than any other 
 and yet I have not said a tithe of what may be said, or even what I 
 have to say on the subject. But I have aimed at establishing four points 
 in demonstrating this proposition. And to adopt the positive and 
 dogmatic style of my learned opponent, may I. not say that / have 
 fully proved 
 
 1. That the office of pope, or supreme head on earth, has no scrip- 
 ture warrant or authority whatever. Indeed, that the whole beau ideal 
 of a church of nations," with a monarchical head, (which, in the es- 
 timation of the bishop, is equivalent to the word church of Christ,) is as 
 gratuitous an assumption as ever graced a romance, ancient or rrtodern. 
 
 2. That it cannot be ascertained that Peter was ever bishop of Rome 
 nay, indeed, it has been shown, that it is wholly contrary to the 
 New Testament history, and incompatible with his office. 
 
 3. That Christ gave no law of succession. 
 
 4. That if he had, that succession has been destroyed by a long 
 continuance of the greatest monsters of crime that ever lived ; and by 
 cabals, intrigues, violence, envy, lust, and schisms, so that no man can 
 believe that one drop of apostolic grace is either in the person or office 
 of Gregory XVI. the present nominal incumbent of Peter's chair! 
 It would be now as easy to prove that Solomon's mosque built by the 
 Turks, is Solomon's temple, in which Jesus Christ stood; as that the 
 popes or church of Rome is a Christian institution. 
 
 On what, now, rests ROMAN CATHOLICISM ? ! If the foundation be 
 destroyed, how can the building stand ? I need not tell my opponent 
 that this is a blow at the root of his apostolic tree. He feels it, and 
 I am glad to think that if any American bishop can sustain these pre- 
 tensions, my learned opponent is that man. He has asked, and he 
 may again ask, where was the Protestant church before Luther's time 1 
 In reply, I ask, where was the pope before Constantine's time? 
 He brought Mosheim to offset Waddington and Jones on the subject 
 of the Novatians. And what did Mosheim prove contrary to these 
 historians ? You have heard with what success my opponent seeks 
 to tarnish the reputation of Novatians, Waldenses and Protestants. 
 As a vreneral offset to all his declamation on this subject, I willj^ive 
 you the testimony of a good Roman Catholic : for he was an Inquisitor 
 I mean fiiencrius Saccho, one of the most inveterate enemies of
 
 i40 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 these old fashioned Protestants. I have the original before me, but 
 shall not read it unless it be required : The translation reads . 
 
 "Among all the sects" (there were sectsf you perceive, before tlie Reforma- 
 tion) " which still are, orhave been, there is not one more pernicious to the church 
 than that of the Leonites;" (a name by which the Walileuses were sometimes 
 called,) "and that for three reasons. The 1st is, because it is the oldest, for 
 some say it hath existed from the time of pope Sylvester; othersfrom the lime 
 of the Apostles. The 2nd, because it is more general, for there is scarce any 
 country where this sect is not. The 3rd, because when all others sects beget 
 horror by their blasphemies against God, this of the Leonids hath a great show 
 of piety because they \\vejnstly before men, and believe all tilings rightly con- 
 erning God and all the articles contained in the creed. Only they blas- 
 hemed the church of Rome." Rein. Sanho. edit. Gritzer, O. S. J. cap. .4. 
 page 54. 
 
 I could give much more Roman Catholic testimony in proof that the 
 doctrines of Protestantism continued from the days of the first Roman 
 schism till now : but this at present would seem superfluous. Nor 
 will I speak now of the old English and Irish churches which the 
 Roman bishops sought in vain for many centuries to bring into their 
 fold. There is nothing betrays a less discriminating regard to the 
 facts of ecclesiastical history, than to ask where was the church be- 
 fore the days of Luther 1 But I hasten to the point yet before me, 
 which, like some others, I may not remember, was reserved for a more 
 convenient season. It was an objection drawn in part from Eph. iv. 
 11, and from the alleged difficulty of obtaining a ministry but 
 through the popes of Rome. 
 
 This passage, viewed in common with Matth. xxviii. 18, 19, seems to 
 me, rather to remove all difficulty on the subject. Matth. xxviii. gives 
 all authority to the apostles to set up the Christian church, and pro- 
 mises them miraculous aid, till the work was done. " I am with you 
 continually till the conclusion of this state sac T <rvvrtKtu<; vw ai^x:?. Of 
 which I must here speak more particularly. At present it suffices to 
 repeat the fact of such a commission, and such a promise to the 
 apostles. 
 
 Now let us hear Paul. When Christ ascended, " he gave gifts to 
 men." What, let me ask, were they "? " He grave apostles, prophets, 
 evangelists, pastors, and teachers" all miraculously endowed. They 
 were not raised up, out of the church ; but given directly from heaven 
 to the church, or for building a church! What, again, let. me ask 
 Paul, were they given for ? " For the perfecting of the saints :" or, 
 according to the Douay bible, " for the consummation of the saints 
 unto the work of the ministry, unto the edifying of the body of Christ." 
 And for how long, let me ask, still more empnatically T " Until" (it 
 is Mi^g; in Greek, donee in Latin, adverbs expressive of the time how 
 long) " Until we all come into the unity of the faith and knowledge 
 of the Son of God, to a perfect man" (not men that is, to a perfect 
 body) " into the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ." -The 
 Roman church being judge, then, these officers were given to the church 
 after the ascension, for a special work, and for a limited time. Till, 
 out of Jews and Gentiles, they had made one PERFECT MAN, or CHURCH. 
 Now, these apostles acted in exact accordance with the nature of 
 the case. They preached, baptized, and congregated disciples, in 
 particular places. These disciples had. from the nature of the case, 
 to receive from them the whole Christian institution. They knew 
 neither what to believe or do, but as they were taught by these in- 
 spired men. Hence, the apostles preached, baptized, taught, servei
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC REL GION. 141 
 
 tables, and dispensed all ordinances, and performed all offices among 
 them, till the body of the church had learned its duty. Then they 
 taught them to select from among themselves certain officers gave 
 them the qualifications, and showed them in their own persons how 
 they were to be set apart and ordained to these offices. For example 
 the deacons, or public servants of the church of Jerusalem, the mother 
 church. Again, they taught them to send out missionaries or evan- 
 
 felists, as in the church of Antioch ; and finally, to ordain elders or 
 ishops over the flock, as soon as they had persons qualified for that 
 office. They taught the church, then, to have bishops and deacons, 
 and evangelists (or general missionaries, as the case may be). They 
 gave the law. the qualifications, and the mode of inducting them into 
 office. They never taught any one church to depend always upon 
 Jerusalem, or Antioch, or Rome, or Corinth ; but they taught the ne- 
 cessity of all these offices gave the qualifications of the officers, and 
 assisted in ordaining them in many particular congregations, of which 
 congregations with the same laws, authority, and order, there never 
 have been wanting thousands from that day till now. 
 
 Order has its foundation in nature. The highest officers were call- 
 ed seniors or elders ; because of their age ; and bishops or overseers, 
 because of their office. Deacons, not having so much authority and 
 glory, and not having a salary, like bishops, there never has been 
 among them any controversy about succession ! But had there been 
 any great honor or reward in that office, we should doubtless have had 
 as much ado about an unbroken line ; and could as easily find one in 
 this case as in that of the bishops of Rome, or Constantinople. The 
 same order obtained in the Christian church I mean, substantially, 
 that obtained in the synagogues of the Jews. The same word 
 TrztrZ-jTUM or presbytery, is found in the New Testament in reference 
 to both the synagogue and the church. "Stir up the gift," office " th it 
 is-in thee,- by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery." Indeed, 
 the synagogue, much more than the tabernacle or temple, was the 
 archetype of the order, which 'the apostles set up. In every case the 
 question was put to the people, "Look out, choose out, select from 
 among yourselves," &c. 
 
 My friend is almost a Protestant on some points. He occasionally 
 recommends the bible to his flock, and he says that the ordinances of 
 religion do not receive their virtue from an unholy or holy pope that 
 he has- his authority to administer from Christ rather than from the 
 pope. 
 
 Indeed, I know not why the spirit of God should be promised 
 through such a wretched and polluted channel as the popes of Rome, 
 rather than to operate from heaven in all its holy influences upon those, 
 who by its appointment, are chosen and ordained by prayer, fasting, 
 and imposition of hands, as deacons or bishops of the Christian con- 
 gregations. We lose nothing then, in abandoning the leaky and 
 sinking ship of pontifical authority in the Roman Catholic church. 
 Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 10 o'clock, A. M. 
 BISHOP PURCKI.L rises 
 
 My friend has set me the example of recapitulating. I shall not 
 fail to Jo so in due time. He has talked around one of the invincible 
 texts of Scripture which I had adduced for Peter's headship : " Simon
 
 142 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, (the plural) that he 
 may sift you as wheat : but I have prayed for THEE, that THY FAITH 
 fail not; and thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren." St. Luke 
 xxii. 32. And he gratuitously asserts that " Confirm" here means only 
 " Comfort." But will any man say that such an interpretation has 
 weakened the force of my argument from the text, or destroyed the 
 avowed effect and object of the Savior's prayer, namely that the faith 
 of Peter should never fail, and that, in it, he should confirm his bre- 
 thren 1 Let him shew that Christ addressed a special prayer, for any 
 similar purpose, in favor of all, or of any of the other apostles, and 
 then he may summon Christ's appointed chief of the apostolic band, 
 to surrender his preeminence. If he cannot do this, Peter must for 
 ever retain his supremacy not of age, nor of talents, nor of priority 
 of call, nor of conversion, but of OFFICE. 
 
 He again asserts, for Mr. C. seems to think we must grant every 
 thing to his assertions, that I cannot find a solitary proof in Irenaeus, 
 or in any other author of Christian antiquity, that Peter was ever bish- 
 op of Rome. Now in p. 169 of this Protestant edition of Irenseus 
 we find that warrant. It is in chap. I. book 3, " against heresies." 
 He speaks as follows : 
 
 "For we have not learned the disposition, or economy, of our salvation flora 
 any others than those through whom the gospel came unto us, which, indeed 
 they first preached, and afterwards, by the will of God, delivered to us in writ- 
 ing, to be the pillar and ground of our faith. Nor is it lawful to say, as some 
 do, who pretend to correct the apostles, that they preached before they hd had 
 perfect knowledge. For after the Lord had arisen from the dead, they \\ere 
 clothed with virtue from on high bv the Holy Spirit who came down upon them, 
 and they were filled with all knowledge and attained to perfect understanding; 
 the}' went to the ends of the earth announcing to us the good things which are 
 from God, and proclaiming heavenly peace to men, having both all and each of 
 th( m the gospel of God. Thus Matthew, in their own language, wrote the 
 gLSpel scripture in Hebrew, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing and found- 
 ing the church of Rome. After their departure, Mark, a disciple, and Peter'* 
 interpreter, likewise announced to us the prescribed doctrines: next John, the 
 disciple of the Lord, who also reposed on h]f breast, published likewise a gospel 
 residing at Ephesus, in Asia. And all these delivered to us the doctrine of One 
 God, the Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the Lord and the prophets, 
 and one Christ, the Son of God; to whom, he who assenteth not, despiseth the 
 partakers of the Lord, despiseth Christ the Lord, despiseth the Father, and is 
 condemned by himself, for he resisteth and opposeth his own salvation, which 
 all heretics do." 
 
 Tracing the succession of bishops in the same chair, he always make Peter the 
 first bishop, as I have already shewn from the very next page 170, of this 
 volume. 
 
 There is Irensus, a writer of the 2d century year 150. I shall 
 ollow the devious track of the gentleman as well as I can. 
 
 My friend denied that I could adduce a solitary testimony to prove 
 that the legate of the pope presided over the first great general coun- 
 cil of the church, after the council at Jerusalem. Now I am going 
 to adduce Baronius, p. 295, year of Christ .325, year of iSylvester 12, 
 Constantine 20 : (how faithful and exact our Catholic histories are !) 
 
 " Before we proceed to narrate the history of the act? oi tin- A icene council. 
 I pray you, friendly reader, to pause with me, to notice the most eminent pn lates 
 of that illustrious company of saints, that most llowery crown of fathers, and most 
 distinguished assemblage of holy bishops, whose names shine forth from amidst 
 the obscurity of so ancient a period. He who first attracts our attt-ntion, con- 
 spicuous for having been twice legate, is Osius, bishop of Cordova, in Spain, "fT- 
 presenting the bishops of Spain, and, as we have already said, holding the place 
 (the Latin is still stronger personaiu gerens personating) S,) Ivcstcr, bishop of
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 143 
 
 Rome, and chief of the legates, his colleagues. Now, continues Baronius, what- 
 good ground could there have been for Osius' signing before his colleagues, the 
 legates, before the bishops of the second and third sees of the Christian world, 
 viz. Alexandria and Antioch, and before Cuscilian, the primate of all Africa, not 
 to speak of others, unless he held the place and represented the person of the 
 highest power of all? He then quotes the commencement of the letter which 
 the legates, immediately after the council, addressed to the pope: "To Sylves- 
 ter, most blessed pope of the city of Rome, and entitled to all reverence, Osius, 
 bishop of the province of Spain and city of Cordova, Victor and Vincentius, 
 priests of the city of Rome, appointed by your direction," &c. &c. So far 
 Baronius. 
 
 Nat. Alex, says, vol. vii. p. 68, "The synod of Nice, first of the oecumenical*, 
 was convoked by the emperor Constant! ne, with consent of the Roman pontiff, Syl- 
 vester the president of the council, in the name of St. Sylvester, and his le 
 gates were Osius, bishop ofCordova, Vitusor Vito.arid Vinrentius, priests," &c.&c. 
 
 It was the custom of the bishop of Rome to send a bishop and two 
 inferior ecclesiastics to represent him in the councils. .Osius was 
 legate and Victor and Vincentius were his two assistants. 
 
 Natalis Alexander says the same, p. 68, *7 vol. Fleury, another most 
 authentic historian, a man of prodigious learning, a contemporary ofBos- 
 euet, and one who has been very severe against the popes, so that we 
 have quarreled with him for it, says the same, p. 107 and 108. He adds : 
 
 " St. Atiiauasius says that Osius presided at all the councils, and it is certain 
 that he presided at the council of Sardica, twenty two years later." 
 
 Now we cannot see why a simple bishop of Cordova should have presided, 
 by any right of his, over all the bishops 01 the wojld, even those of Alexandria 
 and .Antioch, who were present in person Gelasius of Cyzicum says expressly 
 that Osius held the place of Sylvester, bishop of imperial Rome, with the priests 
 Victor (or Vito, as he was also called) and Vincentias: and his testimony should 
 not be suspected, as he was a Greek and writing the acts and records of Greeks. 
 Subsequent usage is conformable to what is here observed. In the ecumenical 
 councils whose atts have come down to us, we see the papal legates at the head, 
 and they are commonly, a bishop and two priests." 
 
 Here are Baronius, Noel Alexander, Fleury. The gentleman says 
 that I deal in rhetoric, but he may say what he pleases ; I deal in 
 nothing but stubborn facts. These are the irresistible arguments by 
 which Catholic truth is upheld. 
 
 As for Peter's executing the decrees of the council of Jerusalem, 
 I said no such thing. He acted with the rest but he did, 1 main- 
 tain, lead, and his authority was wanting to give sanction to every 
 decree. When he spoke, the " much disputing" ceased. He spoke 
 humbly, but authoritatively. James and Paul and Barnabas acquiesced. 
 The opposition to his gentilising was wrong and much in the spirit of 
 more modern opposition, but Peter's authority then as it has ever done 
 prevailed ; for if any thing is certain in historical testimony, it is proved 
 that his authority was acknowledged to reside, in ancient days, in 
 his successors. So is k now acknowledged. We were referred to 
 10. John, where Christ speaks of the fold and the sheep ; and ob- 
 jections were made to my interpretation of the words " lambs" and 
 " sheep," as contradictory and absurd. But now mark, my friends, 
 the signal difference between the two passages. In 10. John, the 
 Savior speaks of sheep alone. He says the sheep are scattered, and 
 never mentions lambs. When therefore Christ says in the other pas- 
 sage, feed my lambs, do we not remark that he afterwards changes 
 the passage and says, feed my sheep ! and as I observed yesterday 
 Christ means pastors, by the sheep whom the lambs, follow. 
 Wide as the world, is Christ's fold and there are over its va- 
 rious provinces, or pastures, many shepherds, but one above the
 
 144 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 rest, whose duty it is to watch over them all, to see they do their duty. 
 This is Peter, this is reasonable, it is as it ought to be. Thus, the 
 rock, the keys, the charge to confirm his brethren, the acknowledge 
 ment of Paul that he went to see Peter, lest he might have run in vain, 
 the acknowledgment of the authority of Peter's successors, the very 
 necessity of such an office to keep order, &c. All this is proof positive 
 from scripture and history and reason, of the supremacy of the chair 
 of Peter, and not rhetoric or if so, it is logical rhetoric. Let not 
 scripture, history and reason be thus dismissed in the nineteenth cen- 
 tury, with a wave of the hand. 
 
 That eternal Du Pin, my friends, you have had my reasons against 
 liis authenticity as a Catholic historian : certainly he is no testimony 
 against the Catholics. All my friend can adduce to prove that the au- 
 thenticity of Du Pin was ever recognized in this country, is that some 
 Catholic paper in Kentucky, 'as he says, allows his authenticity 
 \Vho the editor of this paper is, I know not. He maybe a respectable 
 Catholic. The bishop of Bardstown has nothing to do with it, the 
 editor is liable to be deceived. His opinion ought to have no weight 
 whatsoever in this controversy. 
 
 What led my friend into such an error respecting the book itself, 
 vras, probably his seeing prefixed to it the censor's license for its im- 
 pression ; but he should have known that the king of France appoints 
 such persons as he thinks fit, to examine whether publications con- 
 tain any thing dangerous to the state. And Louis Philip is more 
 strict in this respect than ever Charles X. was, who was exiled 
 from France for the same thing. 
 
 .The Doctors of Sorbonne, to whom the work was submitted, may 
 have said the book contained nothing against faith and morals. They 
 do not say that he is an authentic Catholic historian. We apply criticism 
 to every work, and our maxim is nullius addictus jurare in verba ma- 
 gisfri. The opinions of two or three Doctors of Sorbonne form 
 no rule of faith for Catholics, although, in this instance, they say 
 nothing, I presume, to which we may not very safely assent, while 
 we describe Du Pin in his proper colors. After all Du Pin says noth- 
 ing that does pot go to prove my views, if considered fairly, al- 
 though he was expelled the Sorbonne for heterodox opinions ! 
 
 Now there were vacancies, breaks, in the chain; but the lapse of 
 a. few years, before binding together the links of the apostolic succes- 
 sion, does not affect the great principle for which I am contending. 
 We are no believers in metempsychosis: or that, like the supposed divinity 
 of the Lama of Thibet, the soul of a deceased pope goes by a hop, skip 
 and jump, right off, into his successor. We will wait six months, or six 
 years, to find a good pope. Time is taken for this, since so much de- 
 pends on the result. Now in this chain were some bad popes ; we 
 weep over the fact, my friends, and lament it. Mr. C. ought to have, 
 thrown the mantle over his shoulders and walked backwards with me 
 and covered these frailties, for the sake of our common Christianity. 
 The mass of the succession is sound. But there were some bad points. 
 
 It is not the name, but the religion they represented, that we regard. 
 Whether the stream of testimony came to us through conduits of 
 gold, of silver, or of brass, it is not the channel-of communication we 
 regard, but the pure chrystal and transparent waters of celestial doc- 
 trine, of divine truth. Men are liable to err Jesus Christ said there 
 must needs be scandals. We look for them ; we expect them to occur'
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 145 
 
 while there is yet remaining one single human being on this earth. 
 None hut God is perfect and man is good only by divine assistance. 
 I have no special apology to offer for a pope who is a bad man. He 
 should be the pattern of the flock from the heart. He should be the 
 salt of the earth the light of the world. He should remember that 
 the " mighty shall be mightily tormented ;" and that " a most severe 
 judgment shall be for them that bear rule if they walk not according to 
 the law." Ishould not be surprised if these bad popes were at this moment 
 expiating their crimes in the penal fires of hell. But what is the pro- 
 per inference to be deduced from their melancholy aberrations T If 
 they like Lucifer have fallen, bright lightsfrom the firmament of re- 
 ligion, do the heavens no longer proclaim the glory of God 1 Do 
 the praises of God resound there no more ? "Why it is truly wonder- 
 ful, that, bad men as they were, they should not only have never se- 
 vered themselves from the faith but should have been the instru- 
 ments of perpetuating sound doctrine at home and abroad. Nothing, 
 my friends, gives me more faith in the genuineness and truth of our 
 holy religion, than when in reviewing the history of these disgraceful 
 enormities, I find the church, in the very midst of scandal, enough to 
 blacken and overthrow any earthly institution, still supported and up- 
 held by the almighty hand of God. A church that has stood through 
 all that the gentleman has laid to the charge of the merely mortal 
 men who have presided for a season over its destinies. A FEW OF 
 
 THEM ERRKD IN MORALS, BUT NONE OF THEM IN FAITH ;-SOUI)d doctrine 
 
 and sound morals were seen and admired, during these sad eclipses, 
 and infidel nations were, during that passing obscurity in Rome, re- 
 joicing in the beams of the orient sun of justice, heralded by Catho- 
 vic missionaries. Let this be borne in mind when my learned oppo- 
 nent undertakes to prove that the pope is the sea-serpent! And let 
 my Protestant friends understand that the Roman Catholics detest 
 immorality as much as they can, wherever it may be found : and most 
 of all, where superior virtue was required by exalted station. We 
 too had labored for a reformation, not of God's truth, for it needed 
 none, but of men's morals which are always liable to corruption. 
 We may cry out like the apostles, when we behold such scandals, O 
 Lord, save us ere we perish but we hear the divine answer, " why 
 fear ye, O you of little faith." No CLOUD HAS EVER YET IMPENDED 
 
 OVER THE CHURCH, THAT THE RAINBOW OF PROMISE DID NOT SHINE 
 THROUGH THE GLOOM. 
 
 The object of the institution of the church being no other than to 
 establish the true worship of God, by the overthrow of idolatry, and 
 to sanctify a chosen people-for everlasting life, by the purest virtues 
 of religion, we are not to wonder that Satan, the jealous enemy of 
 human happiness, should exert his utmost powers to obstruct the be- 
 nevolent design. In fulfilment of the Savior's prediction, and from 
 the very nature of man, it was necessary that persecutions, heresies, 
 schisms and domestic scandals should happen ; but Jesus Christ had 
 likewise foretold that they should not prevail. The Pagan tyrants of 
 the earth may rage; the courage and patience of our martyrs will tri- 
 umph and multiply. Heresies may start up in various forms, and 
 for a while seduce thousands into error; they will, at length, sink 
 back a train into the dark abyss from which they first emerged. Gui- 
 ded by the spirit of truth, and confirmed in the unity of her belief 
 the church will ever successfully oppose to their impotent attempts, 
 N 10
 
 14G DEBATE tf\ THE 
 
 the promises of her divine Founder, the antiquity of her faith, the con 
 sent of nations, the order of her hierarchy, the holy severity of hei 
 discipline, the bright example of thousands of her faithful children 
 the sacred history of her doctrines, and the decisions of her council* 
 Schisms may at times perplex and divide the faithful, hut the church 
 hy her authority will either close the breach, or separate the refracto- 
 ry members from her communion. The vicious lives of some of her 
 children may contradict and disgrace their Christian profession, they 
 may violate her laws, they may insult her authority, and invade her 
 sacred rights ; they never will be able U> overturn her ministry, to 
 shake her hierarchy or to alter her doctrine. She will never cease to- 
 warn sinners of their duty, to correct, to instruct, to direet mankind 
 in the way of salvation. 
 
 By her persevering zeal for God's honor, by the force of her ex 
 hortations, by the solemnity of her public service, by the morality of 
 her precepts, and by her practice, of the evangelical counsels, she will 
 continue to prepare souls for heaven, while she exhibits to the world 
 a rich assemblage of the most heroic virtues. It is thus, that our his- 
 tory attests the care which God has taken of his church. 
 
 The whole number of popes has been nearly two hundred and sixty. 
 Of these, the first forty were saints, ormartyrs,a small number only, not 
 more than twenty, can be called bad raen ; the rest were remarkable 
 for eminent virtue, charity, zeal, learning and patronage of letters. 
 Peter was twenty-five years bishop of Rome ; and non i-idthis annuz 
 JPetri, you will not be pope as long as Peter is a proverb which 
 every new pope hears. Pius VI. and Pius VII, came nearest to the 
 years of Peter, but they did not attain them. But says the gentle- 
 man, the pope transferred his see for some time from Rome, to* 
 Avignon. I grant it ; but have I not said, were he a wanderer in A- 
 byssinia, he would still retain his title and authority. 
 
 We were told of a council which cashiered three popes, and made 
 a fourth ! My friends, what sophistry is this ? Does my friend think 
 he is addressing people but one remove from barbarism, instead of the 
 enlightened and liberalcitizens of the queen of the west ? I wish him 
 to understand that we, at least, are equal to the people of Bethany it* 
 intelligence. Among these citizens, I thank God, my lot is cast. 
 Does Sir. O. suppose that they cannot answer his sophistry by the 
 true statement of the fact? The council cashiered three doubtful popes, 
 or rather no popes at all, and elected one true pope. What has become 
 of his logic 1 
 
 Stephen VI. had the body of Formosus dug up and cut off his fingers. 
 My friend has taken this from Pope and MeGuire's discussion, and has 
 seen the answer there. In this unpardonable act of Stephen, we al 
 least discern zeal for the rules of discipline, which forbade the trans- 
 ferring of a bishop from one see to another. For this offence the need- 
 less act of severity was done. It shews the popes expose what they 
 think wrong, in popes ; just as my friend would know nothing of their 
 misdeeds, if Catholic historians had not had sincerity, piety and zeaf 
 to denounce them. Genebrard said that the popes were more often 
 apostates than apostles. I am sure that, in this case, truth was sac- 
 rificed to wit. and faithful testimony to virtue as well as faithful ex- 
 position of vice, for the jingle between the words apostates and 
 npostles. But Genebrard says not, absolutely, they were apos-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGION. 147 
 
 tales, but that they had fallen short of the virtues of their predeces- 
 sors. 
 
 My friend quarrels with the name, cardinals. The name is Latin and 
 as old as that language. But I will not contend for the name. He 
 says the cardinals, were not so called for 1000 years, but did not show 
 his authority. This was, however, the title given to pritfsts charged 
 with the care of large churches, as far back as the year 150, or at 
 least in 300. But call them what you may, they were 3 portic?., and 
 an eminent, portion, of the Roman clergy in all ages. Now, as for 
 merly, there are cardinal priests, cardinal deacons, and even cardinal 
 laymen. They are a superior order of men, the patrons of the arts 
 and sciences, as well as the ornaments and supports of the church, 
 and the benefactors of the poor. They liberally entertain and treat our 
 travelling- fellow-citizens with great civility for instance, Mr. Dewey, 
 an Unitarian minister, lately in Rome, and cardinal Weld, a dis- 
 tinguished English nobleman, in whose father's castle, at Lulworth, 
 if I am not mistaken, our first archbishop, the cousin of Charles Car- 
 roll of. Carrollton, was consecrated bishop. Read Mr. Dewey's ele- 
 gant and thrilling pages. They will almost make you a Catholic. 
 Certainly they will liberalize your minds already raised far above vul- 
 gar prejudices. The cardinals elect the pope but if the pope creates 
 the cardinals, surely he does not create his own electors ! 
 
 Mr. C. has not told us yet, from what true and holy apostolic 
 church, the Roman church apostatized. He has told you of the Albi- 
 genses, Vaudois, Novatians, Donatists, &c., hut they furnish no con- 
 tinuous church. They are, I say again, ignoble ancestry. My friends, 
 read history for yourselves if you wish to see what a miserable set of 
 wretches these sectarians were. 
 
 My friend says, that Peter was married but I defy him to prove 
 that he retained his wife after he became a bishop. I will meet Mr. 
 Campbell on this doctrine of the celibacy of the clergy, and shew 
 him in the words of St. Paul, 1st Cor. i. 26, and in those of Jesus 
 Christ, Matthew xix. 12, whose expressions, although he was purity 
 itself, I dare not repeat in Mr". C 's fastidious ears, " that there are 
 not many wise according to the flesh" St. Paul, who was a bachelor, 
 says, 1st Cor. vii. " I would that all were as* myself. I say to the 
 unmarried and the widows ; it is good for them if they so continue 
 even as I. v. 8. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things 
 that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with 
 a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please 
 his wife : and he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the vir- 
 gin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in 
 body and spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the 
 world, how she may please Tier husband." Read the entire chapte.. 
 Marriage was ordained by Almighty God for the propagation of the 
 human race. The Catholic church not only approves the institution, but 
 teaches that Christ hath exalted it to the dignity of a sacrament. St. 
 Paul, while he wishes all to be like himself, unmarried, still acknow- 
 ledges that all are not called to that state; and they who cannot prac- 
 tise continence, he wishes to marry; so does the Catholic church. Her 
 ministers are not allowed to take a vow of chastity until they have at- 
 tained an age when they can, aided by divine grace, decide on their 
 capability for its pure observance. And now, young ladies and gen-
 
 148 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tlemen, take caie you never become what Mr. C. would make you, 
 the successors of Paulicians. They condemned all connubial ties, 
 eaying that marriage came from the evil principle. But, married or 
 single, let us not forget that our days in this lite are numbered ; the 
 gayest are frequently death's earliest victims. "For \\\?, fashion of this 
 world, says the apostle, passeth away." Let priests then do good, even 
 as Catholic religious have done, to the whole human family, renounc- 
 ing the ties that would bind them to a few only, that they may be like 
 God, the fathers and benefactors of many. 
 
 Mr. C. spoke of ministering to the sick. I thank him for the hint. 
 In deeds of charity, the Catholic priesthood, the Catholic religious of 
 all orders, are unsurpassed. Their ' labor of love' is seen in the hospital, 
 the pest-house, the dungeon, the orphan asylum; where the cholera 
 makes its dreadful ravages, where the pestilence stalketh at noonday, 01 
 midnight ! Hear Waddington 
 
 " The Ursulines. Of the more modern orders, there is also one which may seem 
 to require our notice that of the Ursulines. Its origin is ascribed to Angela 
 di Brescia, about the year 1537, though the saint from whom it received its 
 name, Ursula Benincasa, a native of Naples, was born ten years afterwards. Its 
 character was peculiar, and recalls our attention to the primitive form of ascetic 
 devotion. The duties of those holy sisters were the purest within the circle of 
 human benevolence to minister to the sick, to relieve the poor, to console the 
 miserable, to pray with the penitent. These charitable offices they undertook 
 to execute without the bond of any community, without the obligation of any 
 monastic vow, without any separation from society, any renouncement of theii 
 domestic duties and virtues. And so admirably were those offices, in millions ol 
 instances, performed, that had all other female orders been really as useless and 
 vicious, as they are sometimes falsely described to be, the virtues of the Ursu- 
 lines had alone been sufficient to redeem the monastic name. 
 
 But it is very far from true, that these other orders were either commonly dis- 
 solute or generally useless. Occasional scandals have engendered universal 
 calumnies." Waddingto >'s Church Hist, page 3*25, New York edit. 1835. 
 
 Mr. C. spoke of bad popes, Nicholas III. &c. &c. and of monks. 
 Hear again what this Protestant historian says of them and of this 
 very Nicholas. 
 
 " It is not without reason that Roman Catholic writers vaunt the disinterested 
 devotion of the early Mendicants how assiduous they were in supplying the 
 spiritual wants of the poor, how frequent in prisons and in hospitals, how forward 
 tn encounter the fire or the pestilence; how instant on all those occasions where 
 the peril was imminent and* the reward not in this world. They were equally 
 distinguished in another, and not less righteous, duty, the propagation of Chris- 
 tianity among remote. and savage nations. We have noticed, in a former chap- 
 ter, the method by wh::h the gospel was introduced into the north of Europe 
 before the middle of the eleventh century. In the twelfth, we observe Boles- 
 laus, duke of Poland, opening the path for its reception in Pomerania by the 
 sword; and in like manner, both the Sclavonians and Philanders, were prepared 
 for conversion by conquest. Again, Urban VIII. consecrated Mainhard, an un- 
 successful missionary, bishop of the Livonians, and proclaimed a holy war against 
 them ; the bishop conquered his see, and promulgated at the head of an arniT 
 the tidings of evangelical concord. The same methods were pursued by Innocent 
 III. But from that time forward we find much more frequent mention of pious 
 missionaries, whose labours were directed to accomplish their great work by 
 legitimate, or, at least, by peaceful means. It may be true, that some of them 
 were satisfied with mere nominal conversions, and that others had chiefly in view 
 either their own advancement, or the extension of the papal sovereignty. But 
 there were likewise many who were animated by the most admirable motives, 
 and whose exertions, if they failed of complete success failed not through any 
 want of disinterested devotion. The missions of the thirteenth and fourteenth 
 centuries were principally directed to the north of Asia. In 1245, Innocent IV. 
 sent an embassy, composed of Dominicans and Franciscans, to the Tartars; and 
 a friend'y communication was so maintained, that the envoys of Abaca, their
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 149 
 
 king, were present, in 1271, at the second council of Lyons. Nicholas III. (in 
 1278) and Nicholas IV. (in 1289,) renewed those exertions. John of Monte 
 Corvino, a Franciscan, was distinguished during the conclusion of the century 
 by the success of his labors; and in 1307, Clement V. erected an archiepiscopal 
 gee at C'anibalu, (Pekin,) which he conferred upon that missionary. Seveh other 
 bishops, also Franciscans, were sent to his support by the same pope; and this 
 distant branch of the hierarchy was carefully nourished by succeeding pontiffs, 
 especially John XXII. and Benedict XII. It is certain that the number of Chris- 
 tians was not inconsiderable, both among the Chinese and Moguls, as late as the 
 year 1370, and they were still increasing, when they were suddenly swept" 
 away and almost wholly exterminated by the Mahometan arms. Howbeit, the 
 disastrous overthrow ol their establishment detracts nothing from the merit of 
 those who constructed it; and it must not be forgotten, that the instruments in 
 this work were Mendicants, and, for the most part, Fraiiciscnps." Ib.p. 547. 
 
 The Methodists have done themselves honor by the praises they have 
 bestowed on Francis Xavier, a Jesuit. They have published his life, 
 and to day, if I have time, I will quote from it some beautiful extracts. 
 
 They and other Protestants have also published Thomas a Kernpis, 
 or the Christian pattern. Where, except in the Gospel, can purer mo- 
 rality be found 1 And Thomas a Kempis was a monk. We are told 
 that vSacchi said that the Albigenses and Vaudois made a show of piety. 
 That is a fact, and a pretty show it was. I will not read the indicated, 
 but forbidden page of narrative sincere better blot it with a tear ! 
 
 If the pope is charged with severity to kings, it is because kings 
 were tyrants and the pope was the advocate of the weak, and the 
 enemy of arbitrary power. The people were crushed, and had no re- 
 source but in the influence which God gave to the head of the 
 church. 
 
 "With all its errors, (the papacy's,) its corruptions, and its crimes, it was, 
 morally and intellectually, the conservative power of Christendom. Politically, 
 too, it was the savior of Europe; for, in all human probability, the west, like 
 the east, must have been overrun by Mahommedanism, and sunk in irremediable 
 degradation, through the pernicious institutions which have everywhere accom- 
 panied it; if, in that great crisis of the world, the Roman church "had not roused 
 the nations to an united and prodigious effort commensurate with the danger. 
 
 In the frightful state of society which prevailed during the dark ages, the 
 church everywhere exerted a controlling and remedial influence. Every place 
 of worship was an asylum, which was always respected by the law, and generally 
 even bv lawless violence. It is recorded, as one of the peculiar miseries of Ste 
 phen's'miserable reign, that during those long troubles, the soldiers learned to 
 disregard the right of sanctuary. Like many other parts of the Romish system, 
 this right had prevailed in the heathep world, though it was not ascribed to 
 every temple. It led, as it had done under the Romish empire, to abuses which 
 became intolerable; but it originated in a humane and pious purpose, not only 
 screening offenders from laws, the severity of which amounted to injustice, but, 
 in cases of private wrong, affording time for passion to abate, and for the desire 
 of vengeance to be appeased. The cities of refuge were not more needed, under 
 the Mosaic dispensation, than such asylums in ages when the administration of 
 justice was either detestably inhuman, or so lax, that it allowed free scope to 
 individual resentment. Th'ey have, therefore, generally been found wherever 
 there are the first rudiments of civil and religious order. The churchyards aha 
 were privileged places, whither the poor people conveyed their goods for secu- 
 rity. The protection which the ecclesiastical power extended in such cases, kt pt 
 up' in the people, who so often stood in need of it, a feeling of reverence and at- 
 tachment to the church. They felt that religion had a power on earth, and that 
 it was always exercised for their benefit. 
 
 The civil power was in those ages so inefficient for the preservation of public 
 tranquilitv, that when a country was at peace with all its neighbors, it was liable 
 to he disturbed by private wars, individuals taking: upon themselves the right of 
 deciding their own quarrels, and avenging their own wrong*. Where there 
 existed no deadly feud, pretexts were easily made by turbulent and rapacious mea, 
 H9
 
 150 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 for engaging in such contests, and they were not scrupulous whom they seized and 
 imprisoned, tor the purpose of extorting a ransom. JVo law, therefore, was ever 
 more thankfully received, than when the council of Clermot enacted, that, from 
 sun-set on Wednesday to sun-rise on Monday, in every week, the truce of God 
 should t>e observed, on pain of excommunication. AVdl might the inoffensive 
 and peaceable part of the community (always the great, but in evil times the 
 inert, and therefore the suffering part,) regard, with grateful devotion, a power, 
 under whose protection they slept four nights of the week in peace, when other- 
 wise they would have been in peril every hour. The same power by which in- 
 
 *dividuals were thus benefited, was not unfrequently exercised in great national 
 concerns: if the monarch were endangered or oppressed either by a foreign 
 enemy or by a combination of his barons, here was an authority to which ne 
 could resort for an effectual interposition in his behalf; and .the same shield was 
 extended over the*ssals, when they called upon the pope to defend them against 
 a wrongful exertion of the sovereign power." Southey's Hook of the Church, 
 pag-e 293. Boston, 1*<. edit. 1825. 
 
 JS'ow I must follow Mr. C. wheeling right about from rear to van. 
 We are told that Peter exercised the grand commission of Apostle 
 and that therefore he could not have been bishop of Rome, and again 
 that Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. But Peter 
 was the first apostle sent to the Gentiles by the angel of God. He 
 received Cornelius the centurion into the church. He founded the 
 see of Antioch a Gentile city. If Peter was an apostle of the whole 
 world, where should he place his head quarters ] Where, but at Rome, 
 the mistress of the world, worthy field for a chief apostle's zeal ; 
 where he could at once be heard by Gentiles and by Jews, by Greeks, 
 Barbarians and Romans. 
 
 We are told there are no vices to be discovered in the Pagan em- 
 perors more flagrant and gloomy than those of the Roman pontiffs 
 that they became proverbial for their iniquity. But I have shown that 
 these sweeping denunciations are glaringly untrue. There were 39 
 martyrs out of 260 or 270 popes. If there were a few bad men among 
 them, shall we for that reason fling away our faith ? Does Christ say 
 so ? -Did he not say that it must needs be that scandals come 1 And 
 were not the vast majority of the popes entitled to veneration 1 
 Suppose there were about a dozen that were infamous, and that there 
 were even fifty of various shades of guilt, or imperfection, there were 
 still upwards of 200 worthy. Christ has said that " many are called, 
 but few chosen." Show me 200 of the Roman emperors or a like 
 proportion of any other rulers, to the popes, who were as good men, 
 and who have deserved to go to heaven. Shall we point to Nero 
 holding up the dagger which he had plunged into the breast of hi* 
 own mother 1 to Diocletian, the man of sin, the antichris of the 
 apostles, who mowed down hundreds of meek and peaceful disciples 
 at once 1 to Caligula, the murderer of the saints ? to Maxentius ? 
 or the monster Maximin 1 Where is there a parallel to their atroci- 
 ties ] My friend has talked of the inquisition, and on that point also 1 
 
 'will meet him. The inquisition was the vice of the age and not of the 
 church. It was unknown for many centuries. In many Catholic 
 countries it was never received. Other churches and times have, 
 likewise, their sins of blood to answer for. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 11 o'clock, A. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 My friends if we proceed in this course we never shall dismiss the 
 propositions we have before us. If we are to sit here and listen to
 
 ROJIAK CATHOLIC RELIGION. 151 
 
 such a variety of matter wholly irrelevant to the question we shall 
 never prove any thing, or know what is proved. Must we haveques 
 tions introduced reaching back to the beginning of the discussion and 
 forward to its close, and touching upon the whole system of theology 
 in every speech ? I have said already I will not lose sight of m} T 
 duty so as to respond to every thing in one speech. 
 
 I almost trembled when my opponent arose with so much pomp 
 and appearance of having found a triumphant proof of his assertions 
 in some hidden, and by me, unexplored corner of Irenaeus. What ! 
 said I to myself, have I not thoroughly examined this matter? Is it 
 possible that there yet remains one passage unknown to me against 
 my assertion, and have I committed myself? But it was even a lit- 
 tle less alarming than his blustering about the consecration of Phocas. 
 Judge of my surprise and great relief, when I found he was only rea- 
 ding one of his elegant extracts, which he styles his proof! that in- 
 deed, it was the same old story new vamped and varnished, without 
 any reference at all, to the present debate. Irenaeus said, " while Pe- 
 ter and Paul were founding the congregation at Rome." I would 
 ask, is there in this audience, any stripling in knowledge, who under- 
 stands that founding a congregation makes a man bishop of that 
 church all his life? Missionaries go abroad, they plant congregations 
 in particular places ; and they go from country to country, from city 
 to city, to found other churches. Are they bishops of all the congre- 
 gations that they establish ? It is essential to a missionary not to be 
 stationary. But why expose a matter, already evident to all ? It is 
 the gentleman's last effort. He has explored all antiquity, and all 
 he can find, after three or four days' search, is this single fragment of 
 a saint, stating on hearsay, that Paul and Peter planted the church at 
 Rome ! So ends the controversy on that point, the main pillar of the 
 Roman church. There is another little matter (there are too many 
 little matters) which I wish to dispose of. 
 
 The gentleman affects a great accuracy in his knowledge, and great 
 precision on the part of his authorities. He seems to glory in that 
 sort of reputation, else I would not select this trifle. How often has 
 he asserted that Sylvester summoned the council of Nice, and that 
 the pope's legates presided over it ! And how often has he Jried to 
 prove it ! Like some other matters already disposed of, after sleeping 
 two nights upon the subject, as one that had a pleasant dream, he 
 awakens and affirms again, that Osius, a Spanish bishop, was legate 
 of Sylvester, and as such presided at Nice. But did he prove it? 
 I shall read you some testimony on this subject. , I do this, not to add 
 to the weight of my arguments one grain of sand ; but to prove that 
 when I assert any thing as a fact, I do it advisedly, and will stand to it. 
 Permit me now to correct a mistake into which the gentleman has 
 fallen, that I relied upon the testimony of an ephemeral paper in Ken- 
 tucky. I did not say, that it was upon such authority I read any au- 
 thor here. My allusion to that paper, was a pure argumentum ad ho~ 
 minem ,- and was made for bishop Purcell and no one else. [The 
 bishop of Bardstown or some of his clergy admitted that Eusebius 
 and Du Pin, though not good Catholics, " were authentic historians." 
 But that admission gives them no new weight, or indeed, no weigh tat 
 a,l with me. I have already given my reasons for the authority of Du 
 Pin. But where, may I ask, is his authority for Sylvester's calling 
 the council of Nice ! The emperor did it at the general suggestion
 
 152 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 of the eastern bishops. And if Osius presided, we have no reason 
 to think that he did it as the pope's legate. For this we have an- 
 cient authority. The gentleman spoke in warm admiration of Osi- 
 us : but did he not apostatize, or some way lose his orthodoxy 1] He 
 was, indeed, a learned and talented man a sort of standing presi- 
 dent in the early councils ; and in that age of the world as among ec- 
 clesiastics thers were few men of general learning, we therefore find 
 him conspicuous in all assemblies ; and his name stands first in the 
 subscriptions of the decrees and creeds of the early part of the 4th 
 century, but that he presided as the pope's legate in any coui>f.il, espe 
 cially that of Nice, is insusceptible of proof. 
 
 We shall however hear antiquity on the subject. 
 
 " Constantine seeing that he had labored in vain to allay the disputes which 
 divided the church, thought it would be the most ready and effectual means to 
 restore peace, to call a numerous synod composed of eastern and western bishops. 
 This council was called acumenicul, i. e. a council of the whole world, or the 
 whole earth, because it was called together from all parts of the Roman empire, 
 to which the title of the world, or earth, was g'iven, and which did almost in- 
 clude the Catholic church. This council was assembled by order of the em- 
 peror at Nice, a city of Bithynia, about the month of July, in the year 325, in 
 the second year of Constantine's reign. St. Sylvester was then bishop of Home, 
 who sent thjther Victor and Vincentius, his legates. It is commonly held that 
 this council consisted of 318 bishops; but those who were present at it do not 
 precisely determine this number, but say only that there were about 300 bishops. 
 'Tis not certainly known who presided in this council, but it is very probable 
 that it was Hosius who htld the chief place there in his own name because he 
 had already taken cognizance of this affair, and was much esteemed by the em- 
 peror, who was then present. 
 
 Athanasius, in his second apology, calls Hosius the father and president of all 
 the councils. The name of this bishop is the first in all the subscriptions. Alex- 
 ander was much esteemed, as appears by the letter of the council. Eustathius, 
 of Antioch. was called the chief bishop of the council by Proclus and by Facun- 
 dus; but it is more probable that Hosius presided there in his own name, and not 
 in the pope's, for he no where assumes the title of legate of the holy see; and 
 none of the ancients say that he presided in this council in the pope's name. 
 GelasiusCizicenus, who first affirmed it, says it without any proof or authority." 
 
 Du Pin, vol. },jp. 59ft, 599. 
 
 Now where is the gentleman's authority for the nature of the bish- 
 op of Rome or .his legates, either calling or presiding in this council ! 
 Upon such disregard of ancient history rest many such assertions now 
 in common circulation and in common belief. But as I said before 
 on this point, I should not have dwelt a moment upon it, had not my 
 opponent affected peculiar accuracy in his details. 
 
 The bishop admits Barronius to be an authentic historian. Now, 
 neither Barronius nor Du Pin even admitted so much in reference to 
 the demerits of the popes, as bishop Purcell has admitted in the pre- 
 sence of this great congregation: For he says "I have no do,tbt 
 but these bad popes are now expiating their crimes in the pen- 
 al fires of hell." While these words were sounding in my ears, 
 the question simultaneously arose, with the sensation produced, What ! 
 Has the Lord Jesus his vicars his representatives on earth, now 
 roasting in the flames of hell ? I put it to intelligent men, whether 
 such an idea is not repugnant to every principle of the Christian re- 
 ligion ? 
 
 When Simon proposed to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit, 
 what did Peter say to him? "Thy money perish with thee !" Does 
 this look like winking at such enormities ] Were not the apostles 
 all persons of unblemished reputation 1 and if such holy men, th*
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. . 153 
 
 models of every virtue, were first appointed by the Lord to conduct 
 the affairs of his kingdom, how comes it to pass that he has changed 
 his administration and trusted it to such a succession of pretended 
 representatives 1 Has Christ changed his purpose with respect to 
 . his church, that he will allow its supreme head on earth to act every 
 species of crime, and yet be his acceptable vicegerents ! May I not 
 say, that the darkest hour of midnight is not more opposed to the light 
 of noon, than is the general character of the popes of Rome to that 
 of the apostles ! 
 
 The gentleman exclaims, " How precise these Catholics always 
 in their dates !" There is however, an over precision, that creates 
 suspicion. When a man begins to swear very circumstantially before 
 his word is called in question, I begin to suspect his evidence : and 
 when I see authors testifying that Peter reigned twenty four years 
 five months and ten days, bishop of Rome (as I have it on some ta- 
 oles of the popes ;) I think he ought also to come down to hours, 
 minutes and seconds ! and then we would know how to appreciate him 
 
 This resembles Peter's putting away his wife after he became 
 bishop of Rome. " What accuracy !" Let the gentleman prove first 
 that he was bishop of Rome, and then we shall show that he still 
 retained his wife. 
 
 The gentleman's compliments to the citizens of Cincinnati, however 
 well deserved on their part, will not so blind the eyes of this audience 
 as not to understand the argument ; and the design of their panegyris.t. 
 Nor will his gratuitous denunciation of the Albigenses, Donatists, 
 Novatians, Paulicians, and others, pass for historic truth. They were 
 such " vile heretics" in the estimation of " holy mother," as are wo 
 " schismatical Protestants." Their reputation we have fully sustain- 
 ed from unexceptionable authority. 
 
 The gentleman will have Du Pin in every speech. Can he prove, 
 or has he proved him unfaithful in stating a single historic fact? Not 
 one. Nor can he disprove those Roman Catholic vouchers for him 
 on whose testimony I rely. 
 
 But as the reiteration of assertion is no proof, and as I am not ob- 
 liged to repeat arguments as often as he makes assertions, I shall 
 notice one or two new matters to which he would give emphasis. 
 
 But it is time to examine the philosophy of the plea for wicked 
 popes. The Messiah descended through a long line of ancestors, some 
 of whom were wicked men. That is, the human nature of the Messiah 
 descended through some wicked progenitors. Indeed ! To the honor 
 of Jesus Christ, be it said, he humbled himself for our exaltation 
 he condescended to be made of a woman, to be descended from Adam, 
 Noah, and others. In such a long line, he must necessarily, have 
 had all the varieties of human nature in his ancestors. He chose 
 to make himself of ro reputation to be born in a stable, of the hum- 
 blest and poorest parentage. Bui who would argue from thence, that 
 because his flesh and blood were so descended ; therefore, the Holy 
 Spirit must descend to the church, in all its official gifts of authority 
 and governmental influence, through a lineage of persons, whose hearts 
 were full of murder, adultery, and all uncleanness ] and that through 
 the hands of such persons all the graces of the ordinances must flow 
 to all the partakers of the Christian institution 1 Does not, let me ask, 
 the defence make the matter worse 1 ? Is there any analogy between the 
 aescent of flesh, and the Spirit of God ? Is the formation of the 
 
 20
 
 154 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 human body, and the creation of the mystical body of Christ, matters 
 of equal value and importance ? 
 
 God has generally, employed the best of our race in all the affairs 
 of our salvation. His agents have often been angels or the. best men. 
 He did not often impart such sacred trusts to men of bad character. 
 A wicked Balaam or a treacherous Judas may have been amongst 
 those employed, for special reasons in some great crisis. In the case 
 of Balaam, he caused even an ass to open its mouth and reprove the 
 madness of the prophet : but that he ever set such persons over hia 
 church, and gave the affairs of his kingdom into such hands that 
 he went so far as to select these wicked popes to speak his word, 
 is repugnant to all history, and our experience of his dealings with 
 men. 
 
 The gentleman says there were two hundred good popes. I do not 
 admit this : but I am willing to help him so far as to say I can count 
 forty nine saints out of the first Jiffy popes according to my calendar. 
 But they lived long ago. Not one of the last fifty has been a saint. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL Yes there is one. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL I beg the gentleman's pardon. There is one saint, 
 then, out of the last fifty popes ! It is a happy thing for human na- 
 ture, that the vices and faults of those who have redeeming qualities, 
 die with them, while their virtues live and magnify, long after theii 
 death. Hence, our remote ancestors and those of ancient times, if al 
 all distinguished, are canonized in the admiration of the living, and 
 are supposed greatly to excel our contemporaries. 
 
 The bishop says, that if the pope were a poor wanderer in the 
 mountains of the moon, it would not destroy his authority. Though 
 the see of St. Peter should be vacant for seventy years ! If so, the 
 whole argument for Roman episcopacy falls to the ground. If the gen- 
 tleman admits that the pope has as much authority in the mountains 
 of the moon as in Rome, why all this controversy about Rome ? 
 
 The gentleman made himself very merry with the council's depos- 
 ing three popes and creating a fourth. But. I repeat, there were in all 
 four popes created and destroyed at that one time. I feel no mis- 
 givings of conscience for making this assertion. I ask now, how are we 
 to decide which of these four had the best title to St. Peter's chair? 
 Where is the authority fora council's creating one and destroying three 
 popes ? No council before ever took so much on them. But if we 
 say with the bishop, that not one of the three popes was a true pope ; 
 then what a long link is wanting in the succession ; and how could 
 the council of Constance furnish it 1 
 
 My friend the bishop spoke of marriage quite in jocular style : but 
 he told one great truth which I hope he will stick to, to the end. It was 
 this : He said that the church had made marriage one of the seven 
 sacraments mark it. The church has made it a sacrament; and she 
 has made other things sacraments : which the great universal Father 
 of heaven and earth has not so made and designated. 
 
 Peter was sent to convert the Gentiles. He opened the kingdom 
 of heaven to Cornelius and his family : but this does not interfere 
 with his being specially the apostle of the Jews. 
 
 There were various vacancies in the Roman see of shorter and 
 longer duration several of two or three years' continuance. The 
 church was often without a head for years at a time. 
 
 Was it the intention of the great Author of the Christian institution
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 155 
 
 to hazard suih a contingency 1 Would he have set on foot such an 
 order of things ? The chair often vacant and often filled -with wicked 
 popes. Now, if the church could get alng for years without a pope, 
 could it not dispense with one altogether? For if faith in the pope 
 be an essential part of the faith, would Jesus Christ have suffered 
 the whole administration of the affairs of salvation to be so often and 
 so long suspended ? How many persons were born and died during 
 these vacancies ! How many souls were detained in purgatory ; and 
 otherwise endangered in their spiritual interests by these unavoidable 
 interruptions ! [Time expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 The question for to-day is the uniformity of the Catholic faith and 
 practice ; and we are still upon the subject of apostolicity. Mr. C. 
 cannot go ahead as fast as he anticipated. He has discovered that 
 Paulicians, Donatists and Novatians have theior sinister on their coat 
 of arms, and he takes up with the Vaudois, for whom Reynier and Wad- 
 dington have said a good word. Well let us hear the latter, as he is a 
 Protestant. I may not quote, if I can avoid it, Catholic testimony, p. 
 290. " At the same time we must admit that the direct historical evi- 
 dence is not sufficient to prove the apostolical descent of the Vaudois." 
 There ! the chain of evidence breaks off right short; and the Novatians, 
 Donatists and Paulicians cannot weld it. " Besides," says our histo- 
 rian, " while they (the Vaudois) obliged their clergy to be poor and 
 industrious, they compelled them to be illiterate also." This, at least, 
 my friend will condemn. 
 
 He says, I have slept and dreamed for two nights on the subject of 
 my testimony, concerning Osius' presiding T in the name of Sylvester, 
 at the council of Nice. But have I n^t already produced Raranius, 
 and have there not been for the last two days of "this debate, other re- 
 spectable authorities on the table, modestly waiting to be heard 1 He 
 said I could not get a single proof earlier than the fifth century, and 
 then, that the reason why Osius presided in the councils was the want 
 of learning in that age, in the East. Why, when my friend says this 
 he admits all, himself, and leaves me nothing to say. But the 
 fourth century was the golden age of the whole church. There were 
 many learned men, not only in the West but in the East, and if he will 
 lonsult Baronius, he will find that there has rarely been presented to 
 the veneration of the Catholic world as bright an array of great and 
 good men, as that, which in 325, assembled in the council at Nice 
 and Du Pin encore. He makes for me. He does say that Victor and 
 Vincentius, were legates of Sylvester. 
 
 To give more solemnity, and if possible, more complete effect to their 
 decision, the bishops of the Christian world met to banish Arianism 
 and establish the grand cardinal doctrine of the divinity of Christ, 
 which the Arians impugned. Constantine was there ; but he acknow- 
 ledged the distinctness of the ecclesiastical authority. We hear of no 
 collision between him and Sylvester, or any of the Nicene bishops. 
 The church was in no absolute want of his aid, hut as it was freely 
 givpn, it was gratefully accepted. There were no canals, rail-roads, 
 or hotels in those days. In the emperor's munificence, the fathers 
 of Nice found those resources which their poverty denied them. To
 
 156 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 his son Constantius, it was, however, that Osius fearlessly said. " Da 
 not interfere in ecclesiastical matters, for to you God grave the empire ; 
 but to us ecclesiastical concerns. Now as he who should deprive you 
 of your kingdom would resist the ordinance of God, so do you beware 
 lest you fall into some grievous sin. by taking away the indepen- 
 dence of the church. 
 
 My learned friend says he will not go further on these matters. It 
 is well discretion is the better part of valor. The voice of all anti- 
 quity has spoken The authority of Rome has ever stood preemi- 
 nent. 
 
 I did not say, I did not doubt these popes were in hell. I beg the 
 gentleman to quote me correctly. Far he it from me, to arrogate a 
 right which belongs to God alone, to decide on man's eternal destiny 
 but I said, I should not be surprised, at it, when I consider their de- 
 fects and sins on the one hand, their knowledge, responsibility and 
 grace, on the other. The more eminent their station, the more con- 
 spicuous to the whole world, like spots on the sun, were their frail- 
 ties the brighter the example of their predecessors, the darker, by 
 contrast, did they appear. But the circumstances of the times in 
 which they lived, must be taken into the account to palliate, if truth will 
 not permit us to excuse, their failings. The lights and shadows are 
 blended, perhaps necessarily, in the moral as well as in the physical 
 world ; and as we do not deny the existence of an infinitely wise and 
 good God, because we discover apparent imperfection in the material 
 world, the volcano, the poison, the venomous reptile, the whirlwind, 
 the pestilential malaria, so neither do we conclude that religion, or tho 
 church, is not his work, because we sometimes meet with examples of 
 moral deformity and disorder which mar the beauty of the heavenly 
 design. But Mr. C. thinks that God would never allow men whom 
 he had selected for the high function of "Roman Catholic popes, to fall 
 into sins that would merit for ttaem hell-fire. Does he then forget that 
 God created Lucifer, as a bright leader of the angelic throng, and yet 
 Lucifer is now a reprobate spirit in hell? Does he forget That Judas 
 was selected to share in the infallibility, which he allows was granted 
 to the twelve 1 ? Did not Jesus train him up in his own school for three 
 years'? And did not Judas, after all, betray his God and sell him for 
 the thirty pieces of silver? Did he not afterwards go and hang him- 
 self in despair, and his bowels gushed out. Was it not because of the 
 excess of his own favor to Judas, and the inconceivable ingratitude of 
 the apostle, that the Son of God had said by the mouth of his prophet : 
 Ps. liv. 14. " If my enemy had reviled me, I would verily have borne 
 with it, and if he that hated me, had spoken great things against me, 
 I would perhaps have hidden myself from him: but ihou, a man of one 
 mind, my guide and my familiar.' 11 This is what makes a priest's, 
 or a bishop's sin so great. This, awful as it is, is what sustains ua 
 when scandals befall the church, when the lights of the sanctuary are 
 eclipsed and its pillars broken and scattered on the earth, for we say 
 to ourselves Christ has allowed all this beforehand in that miniature 
 band, his own apostles the exemplar of his church : and the number 
 of bad popes has not yet equalled the proportion nf one to twehe ! God 
 illowed all this to teach us, that if men fall away, the faith for 
 which his holy promises are pledged, is invincible. " The sifts of God 
 are without repentance ," Rom.xi. 29, in other words, Christ established
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 15? 
 
 the primacy of Peter. He wished it to persevere. If anj of the sue* 
 jessors of Peter are bad men; the answer of Paul comes up, "The 
 gifts of God are without repentance." If man behaves badly, it is for 
 his own ruin, but his evil conduct shall not change the order and de- 
 sign of heaven. 
 
 It was attempted to show that there was no analogy between the 
 ancestry of Christ, and the succession of St. Peter. Now I maintain that 
 if the ancestry of Judah's royal line, magnificent as it was and des- 
 tined to be the forerunner of Him, of whom Paul had many and great 
 things and hard to be understood, to declare, could yet include some 
 of the worst sinners, why might not the apostolical succession, in 
 which was, individually or collectively, nought so holy as He to whom 
 all the prophets bore witness, in whom was seen on earth, all the glo- 
 ry of the Father, full of grace and truth 1 
 
 I refer to the first chapter of Matthew where the temporal genera- 
 tion of the Savior is traced from David, and my argument is this* ; that 
 as it has not impaired the sanctity of Jesus to come according to the 
 flesh, from him, though he sinned, and from others who sinned as he 
 had sinned, so neither did it detract from the sanctity of the office of 
 pope, that there were some bad men among the number. The cases 
 are therefore, so far as that argument is concerned, analogous; and we 
 may exclaim with a holy awe Oh ! the depth of the riches, and of 
 the knowledge, of the wisdom of God ! How incomprehensible are 
 his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways ! Who hath known 
 the mind of God, or who hath been his counsellor 1 St. Paul, Rom. 
 xi. 33, 34. My friend says that holy men were always selected by the 
 Holy Ghost for holy purposes ! and what will he say of Luther, who 
 proves, as I can show by his own testimony, himself to have beer 
 a bad man ! I have his works here in three vols. folio a Daniel 
 come to judgment ! He was " a hard wedge to split knotty blocks !" 
 &c. Yes, he had a hard mouth, and a hard heart. But I will not 
 speak of Luther nor of Calvin, hard, unless compelled. 
 
 The gentleman says there were forty-nine saints in the first fifty. 
 I said there were 39 who were saints and martyrs. Since that, there 
 lave been many pontiffs, saints. Pius the 7th possessed all the vir- 
 \ues which may entitle him to be so considered. So did his predeces- 
 sor Pius VI. so did Benedict XIV. and Pius VIII. and Leo XII So 
 
 does the present pontiff, a man of the purest morals, profound humil- 
 ity, enlightened zeal and eminent learning. We have heard many 
 silly predictions of the doctrine of his temporal influence in Rome, 
 but 1 repeat that he would retain his spiritual authority, if he were 
 compelled to leave that city, which I hope after his predecessors have 
 stood their ground for eighteen hundred years he never wiH. His au- 
 thority does not reside in the stones, and bricks and pavements of 
 Rome ! 
 
 The gentleman speaks of the schism of Avignon, for my friend 
 thinks that if the pope should leave Rome, the Catholic faith would 
 be annihilated. He does not know that the title of the see would 
 follow the pope. We never suffer even the name of a see to perish. 
 If Christianity forsake a country, where it has, once, been established 
 the names of the sees would survive. Thus the present, learned and 
 pious Coadjutor bishop of Philadelphia, takes his ecclesiastical desig- 
 nation from Arath in parlibus infiddium. The titular bishop of Phil- 
 O
 
 1 )8 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 adelphia is blind fiom his great age. The bishop of Bardsfown is 
 also, nominally, bishop of a foreign see. 
 
 Now let me, once for all, say that my friend has several times mis- 
 taken my views -and words, on the subject of appointment to office, 
 I need not repeat what I have said on that subject. We do nothing 
 without the pope's concurrence and sanction, in spiritual matters. 
 This communion is a peculiar trait in our church. We exult in it. 
 It keeps us together as the sheep of one fold. " He who gathereth 
 not with me scattereth," saith the Lord. By this communion with 
 the see of Peter, we know that the church is orthodox a;id sound. 
 On this account we yield all due deference to the pope. On this ac- 
 count we ask of him the " canonical investiture," which signifies that a 
 person is authorized by him to be made bishop, and inducted into the 
 sacred office by his authority. 
 
 We were told that councils met together and elected popes. There 
 "s nothing extraordinary in this. Why, my dear friends, com. non sense 
 teaches this course. Christ's foreknowledge of all the occurrences 
 that were to take place in the government of the earth, caused him to 
 organize society. If not, disorder would ensue. On such ?. principle 
 as the gentleman's, there could be no common bond of union. If Christ's 
 society in the world and men will not consent to be held together by 
 social rules, his design is baffled. The church is a society. Hence 
 St. Paul says, "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers, for 
 they who resist, purchase for themselves damnation.'" Rom. xiii. 1. 
 Again, " Remember your prelates who have spoken to you the word 
 of God ; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." 
 And again "obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they 
 watch as being to render an account of your souls, that they may do 
 this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you." 
 Heb. xiii. 17. Without subordination there can be no peace, and 
 consequently no happiness, in any society of men, but particularly in 
 a religious society. The church is the pillar and the ground of the 
 truth, 1st Tim. iii. 15. [Time expired.] 
 
 Three, o'clock, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 Before the third proposition is read, I beg leave to offer both an ex- 
 planation and an apology. 
 
 In reference to the preposition which has just been discussed, I 
 have lying before me an index of the popes from the time of Peter to 
 Innocent II. A. D. 1676. Here are two hundred and forty popes. In 
 the first fifty, forty-nine were saints. We notice a diminution in sanc- 
 tity as we descend to our own times ; for in the last ninety popes on 
 the list, there is only one saint. The church made her own saints. 
 She ought, therefore, to know the reason why. It rests in her own 
 judgment: but, in my judgment, she has made in her popes E.S many 
 as, in any decency, she possibly could ; and many more in name than 
 she "even had in reality. 
 
 The gentleman (and it was one of his most lucky hits) compares the 
 fact that there was one traitor among twelve apostles, to the fact, that 
 there were fifty bad popes among two or three hundred popes. This 
 is a happy salvo. Judas has relieved many a hard case ; hut the con- 
 duct of Judas is no apology for the popes. It has another meaning it 
 scripture, than to justify or excuse such flagitious cases. The Savicr
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 159 
 
 you will remember, in his prayer (John xvii.), says : " Of all thou hast 
 given me I have lo'st only one, the son of perdition ;" hecause he was 
 spoken of in the Old Testament, and described as a traitor. The use of 
 Judas among the twelve, is not always duly appreciated. But for 
 him, as respects the credibility of the testimony, it might have been 
 said, that the twelve apostles were all the personal friends of Christ ; 
 and, although persons of fair reputation, yet their testimony was that 
 of friends. To prevent this reflection, and to make it perfect in every 
 point of view, one enemy is made the confidant of Jesus, as much as 
 any one of them. He is admitted to all the secrets of the schemes of 
 the Messiah, as much as his other companions. He is a covetous 
 wretch, and sells his master for fifteen dollars. Yet, under the con- 
 viction of his guilt, after a little reflection, he goes to the high priest, 
 and makes confession of his sin, saying: '* 1 have betrayed innocent 
 blood." This, at this crisis, in all the circumstances, is the best tes- 
 timony of the twelve. It was essential to the consummation of the 
 testimony against the imputation of collusion amongst his friends ; and 
 Judas is as much a martyr to the truth of Christianity, as any one of 
 his companions : a rpartyr, indeed, not to his own honor, but to the 
 blameless reputation of the author and founder of the Christian faith. 
 This, then, explains the reaspn of such a permission in that case. But, 
 hearken to the sequel. To prevent a bad use of such a permission or 
 allowance even, the Lord suggested to his disciples to cast lots to 
 appeal to heaven in electing a successor to Judas, that they might not 
 be endangered in the reputation of another apostle, and that he might 
 be sent from God. To have permitted persons of this character to 
 stand forward in the front rank of the gospel, would have endangered 
 the cause. The delinquency of the popes is opposed to the plan and 
 government of the Christian institution ; and had it not been for the 
 reputation of the Roman clergy, we cannot tell how much more the 
 cause of Christ would have triumphed ere now. This is the expla- 
 nation. 
 
 Now, for the apology. It is for the difficulties, which our worthy 
 friend had to encounter in finding a succession in the bishops of Rome, 
 that we offer an apology. This apology ought to be a part of this book, 
 for the sake of a particular class, who have not leisure to trace the 
 causes of these things. 
 
 The bishop could find no testimony in behalf of Peter's having had 
 the see of Rome ; because that was not the ground on which that see 
 first claimed the supremacy : if it hsd, we should have had plenty of 
 old traditions to sustain it. The ancient and true ground of ascribing 
 to the bishop of Rome superior importance, and of his arrogating any 
 sort of superiority over other bishops, was, that his see was the impe- 
 rial city : not because Peter or Paul had ever been bishop of Rome. 
 Rome was mistress of the World, the metropolis of the empire, the 
 great city,' the emperor's residence. The bishop of Rome, moreover, 
 had the richest church in the world, and most honorable diocese ; and 
 being neighbor to the emperor, he became proud : for, said he to him- 
 self, " As the emperor governs the whole world, so ought /to govern 
 the whole church." From such seeds sprung the apostolic tree ! 
 
 Constantine became a Christian : Byzantium is changed into Con- 
 stantinople : the Constantine family take up their residence there : it 
 begirs to be called New Rome; and with thai began the rivalry be*
 
 160 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tween old and new Rome. Soon there are two empires (for the empire 
 was divided), one of the east, and one of the west. There must he, 
 now, two great imperial bishops; and the east and west churches, or, 
 the Greek and Roman, began to feel the spirit of rival aggrandizement. 
 The controversy began, arid the prospects of the new city outrivaled 
 those of the old city. But, just as the sceptre and mitre were about 
 passing from Rome to Constantinople, some ingenious person, whose 
 name no monument records, thought of a happy expedient to save the 
 sinking fortunes of the eternal city. It was, that Peter and Paul had 
 founded the church of Rome : nay, that Peter and Paul were buried 
 there ! 
 
 Constantina, the empress of the east, at the close of the sixth cen- 
 tury, finding that this discovery was unfortunate to the rising majesty 
 of the east, sent an express to Rome to obtain the remains of Paul, aud 
 have them conveyed to Constantinople. She was willing that Peter 
 should remain in the Latoran ; but she wished to possess Paul. She 
 thought -this would equalize the pretensions of new Rome and old 
 Rome, and give her equal claims upon the devotion of the saints and 
 pilgrims of the church. Had it not been for her failure in this strata- 
 gem, no one can tell whether Rome had not been, ages since, like 
 Thebes or Babylon. On this subject, thus speaks the elegant Gibbon : 
 
 " Like Thebes, or Babylon, or Carthage, ihe name of Rome might have been 
 erased from the earth, it" the city had not been animated by a vital principle 
 which again restored her to honor and doinin'on. A vague tradition was embraced 
 that two Jewish teachers, a tent-maker and a fisherman, had formerly been e\e 
 cuted in the circus of JVero, and at the end of five hundred years their genuine 
 or fictitious relics were adored as the palladium of Christian Rome." Dccl.and 
 Fall Rom. Emp. Vol. viii. p. 161. 
 
 ".4 vague tradition." This is happily expressed. But the superior 
 tact of St. Gregory saved Rome from this misfortune ; and he managed 
 the petition of Constantina with great address, as we shall presently 
 show. I beg leave "to read from Waddington: 
 
 Reverence for Relics. The empress Constantia, who was building- a church 
 at Constantinople to St. Paul, made application to Gregory for the head of that 
 Apostle,* oral lea,*t for some portion of his body. The pope begins his answer 
 by a very polite expression of his sorrow * that he neither could nor dared to 
 grant that favor; for the bodies of the holy apostles. Peter and Paul, are so 
 resplendent with miracles and terrific prodigies in their own churches, that ;;o 
 one can approach them without great awe, even for the purpose of adoring them. 
 When my predecessor, of happy memory, wished to change some silver arma- 
 ment which was placed over the most holy body of St. Peter, though at the 
 distance of almost fifteen feet, a warning of no small terror appeared to him. 
 Even. I myself wished to make some alteration near the most holy body of St. 
 Paul, and it was necessary to dig rather deeply near his torn!). The superior of 
 the place found some bones which were not at all connected with that tomb ; and 
 having presumed to disturb and remove them to some other place, he was visited 
 by certain fearful apparitions, and died suddenly. My predecessor, of holy 
 memory, also undertook to make some repairs ne&r the tomb of St. Laurence: 
 as they were digging without knowing precisely where the venerable bodv wai 
 placea, they happened to open his sepulchre. The monks and guardians who 
 were at the work, only because they had seen the body of that martyr, though 
 ihev did not presume so much as to touch it, all died within ten days; to the end 
 that no man might remain in life who had beheld the body of that just man. 
 
 * Baronius, who cites the pope's reply with considerable admiration, attributes the era 
 press's exorbitant request to ecclesiastical ambition, to a desire to exalt the see of Con 
 utantinople to a level with that of Rome, by getting into her possession so important a por 
 tion of so reat an apostle. Fleury quotes the letter chiefly in proof ilia! thu transfer al 
 relics was forbidden in the Roman church, while that abuse was oermitted in the cast.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 161 
 
 Be it then known to you, that it is the custom of the Romans, when thej give 
 any rel'.cs, not to venture to touch any portion of the body; only they pat into 
 a box a piece of linen (called brandeum,) which is placed near the holy bodies; 
 then it is withdrawn and shut up with due veneration in the church which is 
 to be dedicated, and as many prodigies are then wrought by it as if the bodies 
 themselves had been carried thither; whence it happened, that in the times of St. 
 Leo, (as we learn from our ancestors,) when some Greeks doubted the virtue of 
 such relics, that pope called for a pair of scisiors, and cut the linen, and blood 
 flowed from the i icision. And not at Rome only, but through the whole of the 
 west, it is held sacrilegious to touch the bodies of the saints, nor does such te- 
 merity ever re ma n unpunished. For which reason we are much astonished at 
 the custom of the Greeks to take away the bones of the saints, and we scarcely 
 give credit to it. But what shall I say respecting the bodies of the holy apostles 
 when it is a known fact, that at the time of their martyrdom, a number of the 
 faitliful came from the east to claim them? But when they had carried them out 
 af the city, to the second milestone, to a place called the catacombs, the whole 
 Multitude was unable to move them farther, such a tempest of thunder and 
 lightning terrified and dispersed them. 
 
 The napkin too, which you wished to be sent at the same time, is with the body 
 and cannot be touched more than the body can be approached. But that your 
 religious desire may not be wholly frustrated, I will hasten to send \o you some 
 part of those chains which St. Paul wore on the neck and hands, if indeed I 
 shall succeed in getting off any filings from them. For since many continually 
 solicit as a blessing that they may carry off from' those chains some small portion 
 of their filings, a priest stands by with a file; and sometimes it happens that 
 some portions fall off from the chains instantly and without delay ; while at other 
 times, the file is long drawn over the chains, and yet nothing is at last scrapec 1 
 off from them." Wad. Chh. Hist, pages 140, 141. 
 
 By this rhetoric, the bodies of Paul and Peter were saved for Rome. 
 And thus, when she lost the government of the world, and ceased to 
 be the imperial city, she had a better argument for her supremacy than 
 before. But, had this been thought of a few centuries sooner, my 
 opponent would have been able to confound me with a h6st of tradi- 
 tionary witnesses, assuring us that Peter was made bishop of Rome 
 and universal father of the whole church. 
 
 [Mr. C. here called for the reading of the third proposition, which 
 was read by one of the moderators.] 
 
 PROP. III. "She is not uniform in her faith, nor united in her members; but 
 mutable and fallible, as any other sect of philosophy or religion Jewish, Turk- 
 ish, or Christian a confederation of sects, under a politico-ecclesiastic head." 
 
 I will proceed to define some of these terms. It is truly alleged 
 that most controversies are mere logomachies ; and that perspicuous 
 and precise definitions would settle a great number of them can not 
 be doubted. 
 
 To narrow the debate on this proposition, the Roman church claims 
 universal homage on the plea of unity and uniformity, as resulting 
 from infallibility. Every other church is mutable and fallible : but 
 she is immutably the same ! Why ? Because infallible. Infallible in 
 what respect 1 ? Infallible in faith and in morals; but not in discipline. 
 But where shall this infallibility be found 1 In any individual per- 
 son ? No; nor in all individual persons taken singly. But she is 
 infallible in her faith and morals, as written in her creed ! The Pro- 
 testant church is then just as infallible as the Roman church : for her 
 faith and moral code are written in a book which is the fountain of 
 all moral truth. We must then define faith : and let me ask, what 
 does the gentleman mean by faith ? persuasion of a fact, doctrine, or 
 opinion? It cannot include everything. If faith mean with him, 
 eomethino- in thp head or heart ; then, where is the pie-eminence oi tna
 
 162 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 Roman church, whose members individually are all fallible 1 and if it 
 be faith as written in the creed : again, I would ask, where is the 
 preeminence of the Roman church, over the English church? for she 
 is as infallible in hei creed as the Bible itself. 
 
 The gentleman says, ' that the symbol of his faith is the apostles' 
 creedS Ifthat be the elements of his faith ; all Protestants believe it : 
 but if he means doctrine, opinion, speculation ; then folios would not 
 contain the differences. What is faith subjectively considered, but a 
 belief in testimony, divine or human ? and \vhat is religious faith 06- 
 jectively, but the Bible ? Five words comprehend the order of things 
 in regard to faith : 1st the fact, or the thing said or done 2nd the 
 testimony, concerning it 3rd the belief of that testimony 4th the 
 feeling, consentaneous with that faith and 5th the action, correspond- 
 ing with that feeling. These are the golden links, in that divine chain, 
 which binds our hearts to God, and explains all the mysteries of the 
 moral power of the remedial scheme. The gospel facts, as Paul 
 sums them up, 1 Cor. xv. 1, 2, 3, which engross the whole, are the 
 death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus. The whole Protestant 
 world believes these facts. England, Scotland, America all Christen- 
 dom believe, or acknowledge these great gospel facts. So far all are 
 of one faith. The Romanist and Protestant here, are equally infallible 
 as respects faith ! And do we not all acknowledge the same perfect 
 moral code ? But while there is, indeed, but one faith, there are many 
 doctrines, opinions, and traditions ; and these are what make the 
 " Bible" and the " One Faith" of the Bible of little or no account ! 
 Hence, has not the Roman church, like the Jews, made void the law 
 of God by her traditions ? It is not because the scriptures do not 
 contain the right faith : but because men have chosen to add to it" 
 folios of human opinions, that the divine faith has lost its power. 
 
 It is a serious question, why is the Roman church infallible in faith 
 and not in discipline ? in theory, and not in practice ] in the head, 
 and not in the heart 1 Is it not of more value and importance, that 
 she should be perfect in the order and moral discipline of her mem- 
 bers ; than in the theory or doctrine of religion 1 She found that she 
 never could make herself infallible why then, does she choose to 
 claim infallibility in the theory, and give it up in practice ? Because 
 her plea of infallibility on that ground, she well knew, she could not 
 at all sustain ; and how well she can sustain it on other grounds will 
 appear in the sequel. She has changed her discipline in every cen- 
 tury ; and her theories and doctrines of order and government are as 
 various as the Protestant sects. In the 19th century, she is not the 
 same as in the 18th ; nor in the 18th as in the 17th, nor in the 17th 
 as in the 16th, &c. 
 
 My friend has made concessions here, which I never expected from 
 him. He has avowed principles, which, till within a few years, were 
 unknown in the Roman Catholic church. I look upon this fact as an 
 evidence, that better days are coining. I could wish that the Roman Ca- 
 tholic faith, under the mild genius of our institutions, might become so 
 modified, as to be suited to the character of our republic; especially 
 to abandon the absurd pretension of infallibility, which indeed, she 
 must do. if ever she can become American. 
 
 But ths Roman church is not united, nor uniform in this notion of 
 infallibility. There are four theories and four parties on the question, 
 where shaft infallibility be found ? The geutieman believes that the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 1G3 
 
 nope is as fallible as himself. This, I conceive, is not the oommoa 
 belief among Roman Catholics. The Jesuits, if I am rightly inform- 
 ed, teach that infallibility must, of right, be in the head. Indeed, so 
 1 should reason: for what use would be an infallible body under a 
 fallible head T and would not that be most unnatural 7 Is not the body 
 subject to the head, naturally and necessarily 1 and ought not every 
 body political and ecclesiastic, like the natural body, to be governed 
 by its head 7 [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 I woulti prefer, for the satisfaction of the audience, and to do the 
 subject justice, to enter at once on the proposition of the infallibility 
 of the Church. I should go over the ground, my learned opponent 
 has traveled, and if permitted, should make a regular argument on 
 the subjects to which he has alluded. My good friend is dissatisfied 
 with himself for having made any concessions in favor of the purity 
 of the popes, and he has re-examined, and found for the last ninety 
 years but one saint in the calendar. If there was but one can- 
 onized, does it follow that there was but one worthy ] There were 
 many worthy. There have been many great and good men among 
 the popes who have not been canonized. Rome is very particular 
 whom she proposes as models for her children's imitation. She is 
 anxious that there should be no blemish in the splendor of holiness, 
 no faded flower in her coronal. She must be so well assured by the 
 evidence of facts and miracles of the eminent virtue with which it 
 has pleased God to endow the subject whose life is examined with 
 reference to this holy distinction, that she has appointed a personage in 
 Rome, called the Devil's Advocate, whose duty it is when a candi- 
 date is proposed for beatification, to rake up all he can against him, 
 and thus prevent, not his entrance into heaven exactly, but the admis- 
 sion of his name into the calendar of saints. So that, what an illustrious 
 Protestant has said, " it is a miracle to prove a miracle at Rome/' is 
 in fact, a proverb in the Ancient City. 
 
 Well, now, my friend says that it was necessary that there should 
 be a Judas, that he was mentioned in the Old Testament his is a 
 special case unique. But my argument is so strong on this point, 
 that I will give up even the strong case of Judas, and yet prevail. 
 Even Peter, with oaths, denied the knowledge of his God and Savior 
 Jesus Christ. The other apostles also abandoned him a crime, be 
 it noted, which the Novatians would have never pardoned. Ml this 
 was foretold as well as the particular instance of Judas. So that, if 
 he please, I will abandon this particular case, and argue as follows : 
 
 Peter fell and was resuscitated ; the rest of the apostles fled ; they 
 were ashamed, or afraid, of being thought the disciples of Christ. 
 They were not, however, rejected. The gifts of God were without re- 
 pentance in their regard, who having seen and conversed with the 
 Word made Flesh, witnessed his miracles, and beheld the example 
 of his virtues, were, therefore, to human judgment, less excusable 
 for their desertion of the stricken Shepherd. Why may not, at least, 
 equal mercy be extended, if not to the popes, who were in this re- 
 spect less highly favored, at least, to the doctrine of truth which the 
 apostles, and the popes were appointed to announce and to pfeserve 
 ainong men 1 Mubt God's holy law be broken to pieces, and truth
 
 164 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 perish from the earth, because there have been had men, like Aaron, 
 who bow to the golden calf to their passions'? It is believed by 
 some to have been specially ordained by the good providence of God, 
 that Rome, once the mistress of the entire Pagan world, should be 
 forever the chief see of the Christian world ; thus verifying the almost 
 prophetic words of one of her most gifted minds, " that the sun in 
 his course cannot behold any thing greater." We are told a fine sto 
 ry about Constantia like some less ancient rivals of the see of Pe- 
 ter, she was three hundred years too late to establish any claim to 
 the headship of the church, and especially by such means, in favor 
 of Constantinople. Now, my friends, why did Constantia want to 
 have the head of Paul at Constantinople? It was because it was 
 known that from the beginning Rome had possessed the prescriptive 
 right to the chief honor and authority, not only in the temporal, but 
 likewise in the spiritual kingdom. The seat of temporal power had 
 been transferred to Constantinople; but the see of ecclesiastical' su- 
 premacy was still at Rome, and like another Queen of lofty and arro- 
 gant pretensions, Constantia aspired to reign supreme, in Religion as 
 well as in Politics. According to the ideas of that time which show in 
 what veneration relics were held, she could set up no good claim for 
 the spiritual independence of Constantinople, unless she had the head 
 of St. Paul brought from Rome, and in this she failed. 
 
 Gibbon says, and it is one of the few sterling truths he ever said, 
 (though it is a bulj) that Rome would have perishe'd amidst so many 
 revolutions, if she had not had within her A VITAL PRINCIPLE. This 
 reminds me of what my worthy antagonist said in the Presbyterian 
 church, quoting a French physician, during the session of the College 
 of Teachers, " that we might live forever if we could live without 
 eating." Rome lives, and is likely to live forever, whether by po- 
 rous absorption of vital aliment, or by the "vii'medicatrix Naturx" 
 which expels all pecahnt humors, it is unimportant to enquire. 
 
 Now I cannot see the applicability of the long passage from Gib- 
 bon, containing the answer of the Pope to Constantia. They tell a 
 similar story, and I believe Protestants credit it, about Julian's un- 
 dertaking to give the lie to the predictions of the prophets and of 
 Christ, regarding the temple of Jerusalem, by rebuilding that struc- 
 ture consigned by God to endless destruction. Globes ot fire, as his- 
 torians say, issued from the foundations, and so terrified the work- 
 men as to compel them to desist. I think it likely that this may have 
 happened, but, like the story of Constantia, it is no article of faith. 
 
 Now we come to the important doctrine of infallibility. It is a 
 doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that, when the whole world 
 was in error, when every thing was adored as God, save God himself, 
 and vice kept pace with error, the Almighty, pitying this darkness, 
 sent his Son, Christ Jesus, the Word made flesh, into this world to 
 teach and to redeem mankind. Jesus Christ was God, equal to the 
 Father in every divine perfection. He possessed infinite wisdom to 
 choose, and infinite power to use the means necessary to the accom 
 plishment of the great TASK imposed on him by his Heavenly Father. 
 He performed miracles. He stood over the grave of a putrified corse, 
 and cried, " Lazarus come forth,'.' and the dead man arose and went 
 home with his extacied sisters. He placed his hand on the bier in 
 which was borne the only son of the widow of Najin, and the mourn- 
 er's tears were dried in that son's living embrace. He gave hearing
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 165 
 
 to the deaf, he opened the eyes of the blind, he healed the paralytic. 
 The evidence of these wonders was such that even the skeptical Jew 
 was convinced, and all the people exclaimed that man had never 
 done the like. 
 
 When he had thus, by miracles, proved himself to be God, as it was 
 no part of his divine plan to remain always in a human form, nor to 
 visit any other nation, than Judea, although all the nations of the earth 
 throughout all ages were to have the gospel preached unto them, he 
 chose twelve men, whom he diligently instructed, as friends, and not 
 as servants, in all the mysteries of the kingdom. These he sent, as his 
 apostles, to preach the gospel to every creature. But before he sent 
 them, he assured them that he would abide with them forever. His 
 words were these: "All power is given me in heaven and in earth. 
 Going therefore teach ye all nations ; baptizing them in the name of 
 the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to 
 observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ; and behold I 
 am with you all days even to the consummation of the world." Matt, 
 xxviii. 9, 20. And that they might be infallible, he breathed on 
 them, saying, " Receive ye the Holy Ghost, who will teach you 
 ALL TRUTH, and bring all things to your mind whatsoever I have said 
 to you." John xiv. 26. "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot 
 receive because it se'th him not, nor knoweth him; but you shall 
 know him, because he shall abide with you and be in you." St. John 
 xiv. 17. This is the reason why the Catholic church believes in infalli- 
 bility : If every man enjoys the privilege of taking the bible according 
 to his own understanding thereof, the Catholic should not be molested 
 in the exercise of a common right. He does take the bible for his 
 guide, and strong as any in Holy Writ is the proof he finds therein, 
 for the doctrine of an infallible authority established by Christ in his 
 church. The Savior tells the apostles, that he will be with them all 
 days -and says, " HE THAT HEARETH YOU HEARETH ME : and he that 
 despiseth you, despiseth me : and he that despiseth me, despiseth him 
 that sent me," &c. In the name of God, why did Jesus Christ say 
 these words, arid inspire his disciples to record them, if we were 
 not to believe them 1 I cannot conceive how it is possible that we 
 should take these, his most emphatic declarations, to mean any thing, 
 but what they obviously signify. Why did St. Paul say that the 
 church was the " pillar and ground of truth," if this pillar and that 
 foundation were to give way as soon as the apostles died, that is to say 
 in a few short yea^s ? W'hy did the apostle command all to obey their 
 prelates, if the wh >le edifice of truth would give way as soon as ho 
 had disappev;red from the earth ? No, my friends, of the kingdom of 
 Jesus Christ there shall be no end, until all nations shall be gathered 
 into the one fold under one shepherd : until we all meet in the UNITY 
 OF FAITH : and not as bishop Home says, jumbling together an undi- 
 gested heap of contrarieties and jarring sects into the same mass, and 
 making the old chaos the plan of the new reformation. 
 
 I might dissert for hours on this subject, but I am compelled to 
 leave off here ; yet I beg my Protestant, I sincerely and from my 
 heart say, most respected fellow-citizens to reflect on these matters, 
 that they may not believe the misrepresentations of our doctrines., which 
 they have too often heard, as ; .f we had no good, scriptural grounds for 
 ou faith. Such misrepresentation has done us much injury. It haa
 
 166 DEBATE ON T11E 
 
 been indulged in so long that I do not wonder at the horror of Oath-f- 
 lics, it has, in many instances, inspired. To this illiberal feeling mul 
 titudes of Protestants are superior, I could almost say they are utterly 
 incapable of it- they abhor it. Some of them are among the best 
 friends I have in this city. And it is not the only one where I am 
 proud to recognize them, and send them this humble tribute of my es- 
 teem and grateful reminiscence. - 
 
 My friend said I had made concessions; he too has been misinform- 
 ed, and knows more of our doctrine since the commencement of this 
 discussion, than he ever knew before. He will allow me to say that 
 I understand something of my own religion, and that as I can neither 
 add to nor detract from it, I exhibit its own portrait, and not a carica- 
 ture, and still less a flattering likeness. He says, the Protestants be- 
 lieve in the apostles' creed. Would to God they would even believe 
 in one single article of that creed! " I believe in the Holy Catholic 
 church." But they do not : or one other article, in the same creed, in 
 the true sense of the words; " I believe in Jesus Christ." 
 
 Suppose I tell a man that I believe him; but persuade him to his 
 face, in spite of his repeated asseverations, that he did not say what he 
 says he did. Do. I believe him ] Suppose I say I love him, and yet 
 do all I can to his injury, are my protestations what they ought to be ? 
 So it is with Jesus Christ. If you believe in him, you obey his words 
 and hear his church which he commands you to hear. It is vain to 
 say, I believe in Jesus Christ, unless we follow him also, and keep his 
 commandments. If we do not so, we are hypocrites, or, at least, we 
 deceive ourselves; and if we despise'his church, he assures us most 
 positively, that we despise himself. " If any man," says he, "will 
 not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publi- 
 can." Matt, xviii. 17. 
 
 But we are told that the meaning of " the church" is the whole con- 
 gregation of the faithful scattered through the earth. If so, must I 
 traverse the whole earth and appeal to every individual believer for an 
 explanation of the law, or a defence of my innocence ] This is 
 clearly impossible. Whereas Christ's injunction supposes the exist- 
 ence of a tribunal, which he commands me to hear, as I would hear 
 him ; which he commands me to hear, under the penalty of being 
 reputed a heathen and a publican. If this tribunal could pronounce 
 falsely, would Christ have commanded me thus to hear and obey it, 
 as I should hear and obey himself? I hope the desired answer will 
 be given to this question. 
 
 Again, my friend says aL Protestants believe the apostles' creed. 
 But suppose a gentleman of the Unitarian denomination should say, 
 I believe in the apostles' creed would a Protestant of another denom- 
 ination credit it ? A Unitarian believes in Jesus Christ, but how does 
 he believe in him, when he denies his divinity ? Here is the vice and 
 error of the Protestant system. They all say, I believe Christ, I be- 
 lieve the bible ; when they make Christ and the bible teach the most 
 contrary doctrines ; and alj think they are going to heaven all ttiink 
 they believe the same Savior. Alas ! how many souls has not this 
 error lured from the only path that conducts to eternal life ! " There 
 js a way which seemeth to a man 'to be right," says the hnly scripture, 
 "but the end thereof leads down to hell." The sects of Protestants 
 are diametrically opposed to each other. They are at greater ami-
 
 EOJIAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 167 
 
 podes than the two Indies. Two men of different sects will meet : 
 says one, " Do you believe in Christ ]" " \ es." " But you do not be- 
 lieve in him as God ]" "No." "No matter, we are both g-ood believers." 
 Again, two others " Do you believe in Christ]" " Yes!" "But you do 
 not believe in a hell?" "No." " No matter, we are both sound ortho- 
 dox Christians." Or again," Do you believe in Christ]" "Yes." "But 
 you don't believe in baptism" and so it goes. 
 
 Now Jesus Christ cannot contradict himself: he cannot say things 
 incompatible with each other, as that two and two make four ; and 
 two and two make five. My friends, I come here not to attack other 
 sects. I come only to defend the truth. Of all religions, all teach- 
 ing, as they do, contrary doctrines, one only can be right. If one 
 only can be true, all others must be untrue. Have you ascertained 
 which is that true one ] And if so, how have you ascertained it] To 
 whatever denomination you may belong, your Protestant neighbor, as 
 enlightened, as conscientious and as pious in his own opinion as you 
 are, thinks you have embraced dangerous error, and Jesus Christ 
 sounds in your ears the dreadful words, " He that believeth not" 
 not what he thinks is right, but what is right " shall be damned." 
 Mark xvi. 16. [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 I hope we shall better understand each other. The question be- 
 tween Protestants and Roman Catholics, on the subject of infallibility 
 as respects the faith, is usually propounded in the following form : 
 * Is there an infallible rule of faith ? Both parties, answer in the af- 
 firmative. Then, ' Where shall it befoundT Each party then sets about 
 defining and wrestling about this said infallible rule. The Protestant 
 says, the bible alone is his infallible rule; and the Romanist says the 
 church, or the bible explained by the church, is his infallible rule ! 
 Thus the Protestant rests upon the bible and the Romanist upon th 
 church neither of which "make men infallible. We apprehend there 
 is a sophism some where in the phraseology : for both parties have 
 exhausted folios on this subject and seem often to have retired from 
 the arena equally perplexed. My antagonist seems to be much in 
 advance of me, and sometimes so far in my rear as to be out of sight. 
 Meanwhile, he will please not to forget that it is my province, at least, 
 to sketch out my own method of discussion, and lead the way. My 
 last speech is certainly yet unanswered. 
 
 I do not choose the phraseology which has been popular in some 
 discussions, on the subject of the rule of faith. There is too much 
 ambiguity, too much room for logomachy in some of these definitions. 
 There is, in strict propriety, no infallible rule of faith. Nor is it pos- 
 sible there can be : for men and angels have erred under all rules. I 
 wish to be understood. The terms fallible and infallible do not at all 
 apply to things: they only apply to persons. "We may have a per- 
 fect and complete or a sufficient rule : but we cannot have an infal- 
 lible one. The fallibility, or the infallibility is in the application of 
 the rule not in the rule itself. The mechanician may have a perfect 
 rule ; and yet err in measuring any superficies. It is not possible in 
 mechanics, nor in morals, nor in religion, to have a rule which will 
 nrevent error so long as those who use it are free and fallible agerts. 
 As Paul said on an occasion, not exactly similar, we may here say ;
 
 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 there could have been a law given to free agents, which would 
 have precluded error, verily God would have given it. But as he 
 has not given any such law, therefore, there has been error in heaven 
 as on earth. Angels fell and Adam apostatized. I own, it may be 
 said, that in common parlance, we figuratively talk of an infallible 
 rule. 1 admit that we do. and that is the reason, when we come to 
 debate the matter, the parties are confounded : for the bible alone, or 
 the bible on the table; and the church alone, or the church and the 
 bible together, have made no one free from error. Therefore, there 
 is no infallible rule in truth : but we have a perfect rule, and it" we 
 apply it perfectly, it will make us perfect. So far, then, as infallibi- 
 lity is concerned, if there be truth in these remarks, both parties are 
 again equal. OUR RULE is THE BIBLE ALONE. The Roman Catholic 
 rule contains ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE LARGE FOLIO VOLUMES 
 SUPERADDED TO THE BIBLE, and ihe APOCRYPHA ! These are composed 
 of the following parts and parcels: 1st Apostolical Fathers 35 folios, 
 2nd Eight volumes of Decretals, 3rd Ten volumes of Bulls of the 
 Popes; 4th Thirty one volumes of Canons and Decrees of Councils; 
 5th Fifty one folios of the Jlcta Sanctorum Acts of the Saints, amount- 
 ing in all to, one hundred and thirty five volumes folio. Our rules, 
 then, differ exceedingly in point of length, breadth and thickness. The 
 Roman Catholic rule is exceedingly unwieldy. It requires a whole 
 council to move it, and apply it to a single opinion. Ours is, at least, 
 portable. But still the phrase rule of faith is not Protestant. The 
 bible is the faith ; and that testimony is the rule and measure of our 
 belief: for in logical truth testimony is the only proper rule of faith. 
 However, the question is not strictly, what <s the rule of faith ? 
 
 We both agree that the true reason of infallibility is inspiration. 1 
 was glad to hear this noble concession from my learned opponent. 
 Jesus Christ was able to give a perfect rule. He therefore inspired 
 twelve apostles to form that rule, and enjoined us to hear them. So 
 far, there is no difference between us. We both have a perfect rule, 
 and that perfect rule is the bible ; and the reason of its perfection is 
 its inspiration, .But where is the inspiration of the one hundred and 
 thirty five folios? Does it require this immense library to make us 
 understand the bible ? However, if my friend can establish their in- 
 spiration, and show fhat Jesus Christ has spoken in these volumes; 
 we will adopt them without controversy. But there is a want of uni- 
 formity in the Catholic faith (even with the help of these volumes :) 
 and hence the four sects mentioned just before I sat down, on the 
 question, where shall this infallibility be found : for after all the one 
 hundred and thirty five volumes lying on the table, are no better than 
 the bible lying on the table, the Roman Catholics being judges. They 
 must have an infallible interpreter of these volumes. Where shall he be 
 found ? " Some say that infallibility resides in the head of the church : 
 2nd, Others, that it resides in a general council, in which the church 
 is represented : although such a general council never sat. 3rd, Others 
 argue, that it lies neither in the pope, nor in the council separately : 
 but in the two combined a 4th party says that it lies neither in the 
 pope, nor in the council, nor in both : but in the whole church, re- 
 sponding to any question. Now might we not call these four parties ? 
 Do our controversies about atonement, or election &c. make us more 
 truly sects, than do these different interpretations make parties in the 
 Roman church ! But where shall infallibility be found ? If this can-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 109 
 
 not be shown, it is of no more use to us in time of need, than a 
 mountain of gold in the bottom of the ocean ; or a field of diamonds in 
 he moon. I hope the gentleman will clearly ascertain this point, and 
 make us all understand where we shall find this infallibility. We 
 would like to know, how the combination of a given number of falli- 
 Mes will make one infallible being; or, by what laws of neutraliza-- 
 tion the fallibility of every member of the church is destroyed, and 
 the whole mass becomes infallible. But if the infallibility of a dogma 
 depends on inspiration, what is the use of councils, unless the pro- 
 mise of infallibility be made exclusively to councils ? 
 
 But I have no necessity for the argument which I had framed on 
 this point. The bishop attributes infallibility to inspiration not to 
 combination : So do Protestants. Therefore on this cardinal point we 
 seem more likely to agree, than I expected. Protestants have then 
 an inspired creed, and this gives to them all the infallibility, which 
 Roman Catholics claim to themselves: but should any one say that 
 the majority of a council constitutes infallibility, then we should have 
 to enquire into the reasons of the infallibility of said majority ; and 
 for the sake of some of that class, I would here state that these ma- 
 jorities often are very lean minorities of the church. The council of 
 Trent debated eighteen years, during which time she held twenty five 
 sessions. In one session there were but forty eight bishops, and they 
 not the most learned. A majority of these determined that the apo- 
 crypha was inspired, and that it with the Vulgate Old and New Tes- 
 tament ; was of paramount authority in the church. Twenty five 
 oishops, a majority of forty eight, represent the whole Christian com- 
 munity ! The question now is, were these men inspired while they 
 were voting this dogma ? I wish the bishop to state his views on this 
 point clearly, if indeed he thinks that inspiration is at all an attribute 
 or a gift promised to majorities however lean. 
 
 Bu', my friends, when you have got this ponderous creed from the 
 decisions of general councils, must it not be interpreted ] Must not 
 the dogma of a majority be also interpreted 1 ? And who is to interpret 
 them ? Every man -for himself"? Then are you Protestants; or, Ro- 
 manists working by the Protestant rules. After all, I see nothing 
 gained by all this expensive and ponderous machinery. Is not every 
 Roman Catholic obliged to judge for himself on the meaning of every 
 dogma, and whether he ought to receive or reject it? Then, I ask, 
 are not the inspired verses of the Old and New Testament as easily 
 interpreted, as the inspired decrees of these councils'? Did not the Spirit 
 that inspired the apostles, teach as clearly, as the fathers in their coun- 
 cils 1 I wish to understand the bishop more accurately on these points. 
 
 The gentleman (I regret to state it) spoke of Protestants as hating 
 the Roman Catholics, from a supposed ignorance of their creed. For 
 myself, and for Protestants generally, I disavow the idea, and the 
 language of hatred towards Romanists, as such. We feel the same 
 humanity and benevolence towards Roman Catholics, as men, as to 
 Protestants. We always discriminate between tenets and men, a 
 system or theory, and those who hold it. With open arms, I would 
 welcome to our shores the oppressed of all nations, Romanists and 
 Protestants. I would extend to the Roman Catholic every facility to 
 improve his condition by immigration into this favored land, 'provided 
 only I were free from all suspicion, that his faith in the pope and 
 P 22
 
 170 
 
 DERATE O:v THE 
 
 mother-church, would not induce him or his children to wrest from me 
 or mine, that freedom and liberty which I would gladly participate 
 with him. I oppose his religion ; because, I sincerely think it enslaves 
 him, and would enslave me, if it had the power. Bat, in att this there- 
 is no hatred to Roman Catholics as men. We are devoted to American* 
 institutions, because they are humane-. For the sake of Romanists, as 
 well as Protestants, we dosire to see them permanent. We fear the; 
 exclusive, proscrrptive, and despotic system of Romanism; bat we 
 feel nothing but benevolence to Roman Catholics. 
 
 My worthy opponent has done us great honor in saying, that he 
 knows many excellent Protestants, whom he esteems highly as good 
 7J.en. Of coarse, then, they may be saved ost of the Roman Catholic 
 church. If so, what is the difference between his infallible ami our 
 fallible faith ? I cannot find time to reply to any remarks of my oppo- 
 nent, not made in reference to my arguments. [Minus 5 minutes.} 
 
 Half-past 4 o'cfoc/t, P, M. 
 BISHOP PTJRCKLL rises 
 
 I shall reply to what has been said, and then pnrsne my own line 
 of argument. The Catholic church claims to have an infallible rule 
 of faith and an infallible code of morals. The former would be of 
 little use without the latter. So intimate is the connection betweerr 
 sound faith and sound morals, that we hold that if the Catholic codes 
 of morals is vicious, she is not infallible in doctrine. If the working 
 of her code of morals is proved to lead,, or to have led, into vice, she 
 is not infallible. This never has been proved, nor ever can it be. 
 But the contrary to this has been proved, and its proof is cumulative. 
 . The darkest ages furnish some of its brightest illustrations. Sher 
 does not pretend to be infallible in discipline r in the sense of its im- 
 mutability. The gentleman confounds discipline with morals, and 
 this want of clearness of ideas is the source of the entire difficulty. 
 Discipline, I think, I have explained. It regulates the dress of the 
 clergy, the liturgical language, the time of singing hallelujah, the 
 mode of shaving the head, or making the tonsure, the giving of the 
 cup to the laity, the use of leavened, or unleavened bread for the sa- 
 crament, selection of days for feasts and fasts, &c. &c. The church 
 must have the power of changing in these respects fn other words 
 of adapting her discipline to times, and countries. And all this, sa 
 fax from being an imperfection is a proof of her perfection, of her 
 having been established by Jesus Christ to teach, and guide, and sanc- 
 tify all nations for ever. 1 did not state the crude proposition, which 
 the gentleman has attributed to me, viz. that the pope is as fallible as 
 I am. I would not compare myself thus to him. I occupy an humble 
 station compared to his, and I am conscious of the want of those em- 
 inently distinguished qualities of head and heart which compose his 
 character. He has grace and lights which I have not. The gentle- 
 man tells Protestants a flattering tale, that they have is infallible a 
 rale, as Catholics. This is keeping the word of promise to the ear 
 and breaking it to the heart. Does he not in the same speech, ac- 
 knowledge that their fallible opinions, doctrines, traditions make theic 
 own rule, the bible, vain and nothing worth ? The bible is a dead let- 
 ter all" pretend to find their conflicting tenets in it. Where is then, 
 the infallible rule 1 ? Does he not charge Protestants as v.^Jl a.s Cathr
 
 fiC MAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 171 
 
 olics with error. And why ? The gentleman said, where is the use 
 of the head, without the body? I ask where -is the use of a body 
 without a head ? And he said, if the body regulates the head it is 
 anomalous. But what is it that sends vitality to the head 1 Is it not 
 the heart with its healthful pulses and its quickening current ? The 
 pope is the head the council is the heart and I have no objection 
 to his calling the laity the members, to continue the figure. While 
 there is no schism in the members, no separation of theliead or of the 
 heart, all is soundness and life so in the church pope, pastors, and 
 laity. United we stand, divided you fall. The true theory of the 
 church, like that of the human body, is union. Ask not, does the 
 heart, alone, or the head alone, or the members alone contain the vital 
 principle they sympathize ; they live and move and have their being 
 together. God. seems to address himself to the head and to the heart 
 in the revealed definitions of his essence. " I AM WHO AM," and " GOD 
 is LOVE," one of these definitions is for the reason, the other for the 
 affections ; one for the Old Testament, the other for the New. Both, 
 however, come from the same source and tend to define Him LIFE, 
 WISDOM and LOVE. 
 
 The division of truth into objective and subjective is correct but 
 objective revealed truth is the whole truth revealed by God, wherever 
 found and in whatever manner conveyed. What is the use of this, 
 without subjective truth, or our own knowledge and conviction that 
 we possess objective truth, and that we are sure of possessing it? Of 
 this, the Protestant, who rejects authority in religion, and pretends to 
 find out religion for himself, from a book, which he acknowledges, fal- 
 lible men handed t to him, can never be sure. The fact, the testimony, 
 the belief of the testimony, the feeling consentaneous with the belief, 
 and the correspondent action, are all human faith and natural feeling, 
 struggling, and striving for some higher and better gifts, which it can- 
 not attain without infallible assurance, without the Catholic rule. What 
 is the testimony that might be deceived itself and might deceive me ? 
 
 He says we Catholics have a very broad rule 135 folios. No such 
 thing. We have a quite convenient pocket-rule. It is the pearl of 
 great value a diamond, with which we cut the brittle glass of mere 
 human creeds in pieces, and with which we solve every difficulty. 
 It is this : " I believe in the Holy Catholic church." They were the 
 apostles he was Christ who gave it to us. It does not suppose ig- 
 norance, or servile acquiescence. It lifts us above error, giving us a 
 divine warrant for every tenet of our faith, and directing our under- 
 standings and hearts to GOD, who speaks to us by his church. I 
 hope I did not understand my friend correctly this morning, but if I 
 have he has uttered horrid blasphemy. I understood him to say that 
 God could not have given a perfect rule (to make man infallible, and 
 prevent him from error.) 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL explained. He had said that God could not create 
 a hill without a valley could not make man a free agent and bind him. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. Could not God have created the angels so that 
 they could not fall into sin? 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. There can be no virtue nor vice, without liberty 
 of choice : neither in man nor in angel. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. My frhnd has said that God could not have cre- 
 ated '.miri'ls or men virtuous without making them free to sin. The 
 angels of heaven are not free tc do wrong, are they not virtuous ?
 
 172 ^ DEBATE O>' THE 
 
 Mn. CAMPBELL. If such is the nature of angels, they are virtuous 
 by nature. Perfect liberty consists in acting in unison with our na- 
 ture. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. Then the angels are virtuous without being free. 
 If the rebel angels were virtuous by nature, how did they happen to 
 fall ? And could not God have made the angels who are now good, 
 by nature, or by grace, such from creation ] I will now continue my 
 argument. It does not exceed the power of God to make man infal- 
 lible. Christ was infallible; for he was God. Now if he could 
 make twelve men infallible, as Mr. C. admits the apostles were, why 
 could he not perpetuate the same power in favor of his entire church, 
 since such infallible authority to teach his true doctrine is as necessa- 
 ry now, as it was at any former time 1 , 
 
 Now I have another strong argument here it is old with us, but 
 suggested anew by reading one of the Protestant papers, from New 
 York. It is the Palladium, and my friend seems to know the editor, 
 for he himself has given occasion for the very article in question. The 
 argument is this : If tradition be fallible, and it was not known foi 
 300 years, what books of the bible were genuine, and what spu- 
 rious, how shall we ascertain that we have the bible? How shall we 
 ever know that the book is the book of God ? The making of the ca- 
 non or list of beoks composing the inspired volume, was a difficulty 
 yielding to hut few others in magnitude, during the first four hundred 
 years of Christianity, when, if we must believe my friend, infallibility 
 had departed, with the last of the apostles, to heaven. How then can 
 we be sure that our present canon is correct ] Catholics can be sure 
 on this vital point, for they have the voucher of an infallible guardian 
 of the holy deposit, for its correctness; but Protestants, who have no 
 such tribunal to enlighten them, how can they be sure? Catholics 
 hold that infallibility was promised" to the church by Jesus Christ. Its 
 testimony is heard in a general council, or in the pope's decision in 
 which all assent. The church can subsist without a general council. 
 General councils are not essential though frequently of use, because, 
 though we all believe without exception, that the pope's decision, in 
 which, after it has been duly made known, all the bishops of the Ca- 
 tholic world acquiesce, is infallible, still the decision of a general 
 council declares in a more impressive and solemn, though not more au- 
 thentic, manner, the belief of the Catholic world on the contested doc- 
 trine, and thus more effectually proscribes the contrary error. The 
 celebrated Protestant, Leibnitz, remarked that there could be no cer- 
 tainty of a correct decision on religious matters, equal to that afforded 
 by the decision of a general council. The four sects Mr. C. speaks 
 of // ao-ree in the belief of the infallibility of the church representa- 
 tive and of the church responsive; if I must employ these technical 
 terms and as he asks "could not the Holy Ghost, who inspired the 
 apostles, teach as clearly as the Fathers in their councils '!" I answer, 
 ' Yes,' and he has so taught us to " HEAR THE CHURCH," for, no prophe- 
 cy of scripture is of any private interpretation. 
 
 Let me now vindicate the humblest Roman Catholic of my flock, or 
 of the world, from the charge of pinning his faith to the sleeve of any 
 man, or of surrendering his conscience to the keeping of his priest. 
 Catholics do not believe because the priest, tells them to believe, but be- 
 cause they consider him to be the faithful interpreter of Christ and the
 
 HOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 173 
 
 organ of the church, hut should he dissent from the oracles of God and 
 his ecclesiastical superiors, that moment they would quit him. They 
 see his teaching accords with that which they have heard from others, 
 which they have read, as the Catholic doctrine. If they doubt, they 
 ask other priests, or the bishop. Thus while they know the priest to 
 be orthodox, they hear him, or rather the church, they hear God and 
 they believe God. And in this there is no servility. The failh he 
 teaches and the moral law he expounds, have both come from God, and 
 to God they owe and pay their vows. My friend misapprehends me. 
 I did not say that Protestants hated Catholics. I say that some Pro- 
 testants are often prejudiced against them, and I wondered they are not 
 more so. If he could prove the odious proposition so long before you, 
 the Catholic church would be a monster. I am sorry my friend has 
 misunderstood the doctrines of the Catholics, and I am glad of the op- 
 portunity which is thus afforded me, of coming before the public and 
 showing what are our real sentiments. 
 
 I come to the doctrine of infallibility again. I will begin my argu- 
 ment this evening, and conclude perhaps to-morrow morning. 1 beg 
 leave to read what I have myself written on this subject : 
 
 Whoever reflects upon the countless varieties of human character, 
 the ignorance of some men, the prejudices of others, the passions of 
 all, will scarcely require that we should expend much time or labor to 
 prove, that as long as men are commanded to form their religion 
 for themselves, even though the book they receive for their guide 
 should be the plainest in its language that divine wisdom could bestow, 
 the sources of error will be never drained. No matter how pure the 
 doctrine of that book, how holy its precepts, how luminous its evi- 
 dences, occasions will occur, when these doctrines will be contested, 
 these precepts denied, these beaming evidences obscure to the pride, 
 the voluptuousness, and the love of independence, inherent in a per- 
 verted nature. Man, under the influence of such feelings, will read, 
 will write; he will communicate his doubts and impart his prejudices 
 to others; he will originate new dreeds, and form new sects ; he will 
 raise altar against altar, and desk against desk; nor will any one, 
 consistently with Protestant principles, have a right to ask him why 
 he does so. At the beginning of the sixteenth century, when the right 
 of forming religion, every man for himself, and the bible for us all, 
 was first promulgated, the fierce self-constituted apostle sounded a 
 deafening peal of defiance, and denounced all authority in religious 
 concerns as spiritual tyranny. " Read the scriptures !" he vociferated 
 to the astonished crowd of wise or foolish, learned or unlearned, that 
 thronged to hear him. " Read the scriptures, and judge for yourselves : 
 your reason and the spirit will enable you to understand them, as eas- 
 ily as you can discern hot from cold, or sweet from bitter. Read the 
 scriptures : they that run may read. Judge for yourselves !" They 
 did read, they did judge for themselves; and they decided against 
 their apostles, and against one another ! 
 
 " When hell," says an illustrious writer, " prepares some terrible 
 calamity for mankind, it flings upon the earth a pregnant evil, consign- 
 ing its development to time." The time for the development of this 
 mischief was brief. The word was uttered, and it could not here- 
 called : the principle was established, which it was too late to rescind. 
 The disciples of the new apostles, reading, indging, deciding, became 
 P2,
 
 174 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 apostles the nselves. They claimed the right their teachers exercised. 
 They claimed it to change, as they bad changed. The Lutherans, 
 multitudes of them, became Calvinists ; Calvinists, Independents; 
 Independents, Anabaptists ; each sect the prolific parent of twenty 
 others, all differing from one another; as much as each one differed 
 from its parent innovation. Mark now the inconsistoncy to which 
 the evil working of this scheme reduced the first claimants of a right 
 unheard of for fifteen centuries. A' Obey !" they now cry aloud, with 
 terror, "obey your superiors; submit to the pastors whom God has 
 appointed to rule the faithful. It is their duty to instruct you, yours 
 to follow the guidance of their wisdom." " What," they exclaimed, 
 " becomes of the subordination which the scriptuies so frequently en- 
 join, if each one can be the arbiter of his own belief] What becomes 
 of humility, which religion so forcibly inculcates, if every individual 
 presumes to be an oracle and a judge ? What would become of civil 
 law and social harmony and order, if the acts of our legislatures were 
 left to the interpretation of every interested litigartl'? Forbear ! for- 
 bear !" Such was the restraint, as every one knows, which Luther 
 was under the inevitable necessity of imposing on the first followers 
 of his revolt, in order to counteract the effects of the disastrous prin- 
 ciple of mental emancipation, so highly eulogized when it was first 
 proclaimed, and received with so much enthusiasm, until it was found 
 to be a very Babel of the confusion of all creeds another name, or 
 else a cloak, for deism and positive infidelity. When we reason on 
 principles rightly understood, whose immediate bearings and remotest 
 consequences have been exposed to the examination of the reflecting 
 world, for the last three hundred years, these arguments are as con- 
 clusive to-day, as they were when first urged ; and when the right of 
 any individual to believe whatever errors he honestly conceives to be 
 truths revealed in scripture, is contested, he may say to his accusers, 
 in the eloquent language of the Protestant remonstrants to the synod 
 of Don (itself Protestant), which had infringed their privileges in this 
 respect: " Why exact that our inspiration, or our judgment, should 
 yield to your opinion 1 ? The opinion of any society, our apostles, the 
 first reformers, declared to be fallible; and, consequently, to exact 
 submission to its dictates, they, with great consistency, defined to be 
 tyranny. Thus they decided with regard to the church of Rome ; and 
 you, yourselves, have sanctioned their decision. Why, therefore, ex- 
 ercise a domination over us, which you stigmatized as tyranny in a 
 church, compared to whose greatness you dwindle into insignificance. 
 If resistance to the decisions of our pastors be a crime, then let us 
 wipe out the stain of our origin, and run back together to the fold of 
 Catholicity, which you and we have abandoned. If such resistance 
 be no crime, why require of us a submission which we do not owe 
 you. Allow us to differ from you, as you do from the parent church." 
 From the unanswerable logic of this remonstrance, the conclusion 
 follows irresistibly : 1. That every society formed on Protestant prin- 
 ciples, being essentially fallible, none should assert the inconsistent 
 pretension of controlling faith by authority, or of regulating creeds, 
 under pretence of superior wisdom. 2. That no such society, and, 
 therefore, no individual, in such society, can be sure of beinir in the 
 right, as long as his Protestant neighbor, with as many resources of 
 information, and as piously inclined as himself, has embraced the very
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 175 
 
 contrary of his opinion. 3. That as the entire system is based on the 
 possibility of each one's being mistaken, where the most learned and 
 pious have adopted such opposite conclusions, no one can ever make 
 an act of divine faith, which is incompatible with uncertainty, and 
 much more so with error. 4. That, as long as such a principle is up- 
 held, there is no hope of union, no security ; consequently, that either 
 the whole system is false, or some expedient of union and unity mu5< 
 be discovered, to induce any conscientious and rational inquirer after 
 truth, to believe that the Protestant society exemplifies the efficacy of 
 the prayer of Christ for his disciples, the night before he suffered, that 
 " they may be made perfect in one." We entreat our readers seriously 
 to look into the different religions professing to have been founded by 
 Jesus Chrisi, and seriously ask themselves the question, in which of 
 all these, that " PERFECT ONENESS" (which, better than all other proofs, 
 establishes the divinity of the Son of God, and convinces the entire 
 world how much his heavenly Father loved him, and those whom he 
 had given to him) may be found. Let not this inquiry be neglected, 
 nor yet performed lightly : eternal life or death may be the consequence 
 of its good or bad prosecution. 
 
 Error in religion, when it results from the neglect of sincere and 
 prayerful enquiry, is criminal. This no intelligent Christian will de- 
 ay. God is as essentially the God of truth, as he is the God of vir- 
 tue. He can no more sanction error, than he can tolerate vice. His 
 right is as absolute to the submission of the understanding, as to the 
 obedience of the will; and as ne, who violates one commandment 
 will not be saved for the observance of the rest, so he that rejects 
 one truth, which Almighty God has revealed not that we may ex- 
 amine, contest, adopt or reject but that we may believe it, has lost 
 the merit of saving faith. It is to fix the otherwise perpetual varia- 
 tions of the human mind, and secure the anchor of our faith, not in 
 the moving sands of man's vacillating judgments and uncertain opin- 
 ions, but by lodging it deeply and indissolubly in the rock which the 
 Divine Architect has made the foundation of his church, and against 
 which the winds of error and the rain of dissolving scandal will rage 
 and beat in vain, that the Word made Flesh vouchsafed to become the 
 Light of the world. 
 
 The misfortune of the great majority of mankind at the present 
 day, is not so much a blind fanatical attachment, (bad as this is) to 
 the sect in which they chanced, to be born, or were first instructed, 
 as a certain latitude of principle, which has obtained the specious 
 name of liberality, and which resolves itself into a fatal and unrea- 
 sonable indifference to all religions, true or false. The infidel who 
 has had but too frequent occasion to exult at the success of a \vil\ r 
 system of hostility to revealed truth, affects to be unable to restrain 
 his delight at beholding^ variety pervading the religious, as well 
 as the physical world. Diversity of creeds is as pleasing to his eye, 
 as the discrepancy of features in the human countenance. Incapable 
 of reasoning, out of the sphere of matter, of which it is his inverted 
 ambition to be a part, he holds the different religions professed by 
 men to be so many institutions, prescribing for each country a uni- 
 form manner of honoring God in public; all founded and having their 
 pecul/ T reasous in the climate, the mode of government, the genius
 
 I"i6 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 of the people, or in some other local cause, which renders one furni 
 of religion preferable, for them, to another. 
 
 The conclusion to he drawn from this doctrine, in as much as it 
 levels all distinctions between trutli and falsehood, good and evil, is 
 hvmiliating to reason but the infidel, for once consistent, recoils not 
 before it : the following is his language " Sincerely profess, piously 
 practise the religion of the country in which you live. In other words, 
 born in a pagan country, adore its gods sacrifice to Jupiter, to Mars, 
 to Priapus, or to Apollo. In Egypt, yon will render divine horors 
 to the sacred ox, and the crocodile; in Phenicia, you will pass your 
 children through the fires of Moloch ; in one country, you will im- 
 molate human victims to your idol ; in another, you will humbly bow 
 before a block of marble, or of wood before an animal, fossil, or a 
 plant. Be not afraid ; God will not send one man to heaven for hav- 
 
 fg been born in Rome, nor another to hell for having been born in 
 onstantinople. Therefore, in the latter place you will cry. 'God is 
 God and' Mahomet is his prophet;' and in the former, you will ana- 
 thematise the impostor. A Christian in Europe, a Mussulman in 
 Persia, an Idolater in Congo, on the banks of the Ganges an adorei 
 of Vishnou, let not truth dictate the choice of your religion, but 
 chance let not reason decide, but the measurement of a degree ot 
 latitude, or longitude. Your credulous parent paid divine honors to 
 an onion ; preserve this domestic worship a son can never do wrong 
 in following the religion of his father." But all this, it will be said, 
 is rtnworthy of God and degrading to man. Not at all, he replies, 
 all religions are equal you were born in this, to practise another would 
 be presumption. Such is the reasoning of the instructor of Emile, 
 the theology of Hobbes, the profession of faith of the author of Zaire. 
 
 "Chretienne dans Paris, Mussulmane en ces lieux, 
 J'aurois avec la Grece adore les faux Dieux." 
 
 Thai the unbeliever should thus eat promiscuously of the fruit of 
 the tree of good and evil, life and death, should not create surprise. 
 His joy consists in his being able to doubt of the validity of the proofs 
 of religion his only peace in life, his only security in death being 
 made to depend on the delusive conviction of the improbability of ever 
 arriving with certainty at the knowledge of revealed truth the only 
 truth, after all, it must be admitted, which it is necessary for man to 
 know and consequently the only truth which God is bound by all his 
 essential and unchangeable attributes to enable us to attain. 
 
 The basis of Protestant belief is, that the Scripture, this book of di 
 vine revelation, is the only rule of faith ; and that Jesus Christ having 
 left on earth no living infallible authority to interpret it, every man is 
 obliged to expound it, for himself, or in other words, to seek in it the 
 religion, in which he is to live and by which he must be saved. His 
 duty is to believe, what, it seems to him, this book clearly teaches and 
 what as far as he has ascertained by subjecting it to the test of private 
 examination, contradicts not his reason: and as no man has a right to 
 say to another, " my reason is more vigorous, my judgment more sound 
 than yours," it follows that every man should abstain from condemn- 
 ing the interpretation of another and should consider all relitfions, at 
 least, as good and as safe as his own. This is the infidel principle in 
 disguise. The Deist takes the book of nature, the Protestant take? 
 the Bible. The former reads in his book, that the Supreme Being mu&
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 177 
 
 be pleased with the diversity of worship rendered him by his creatures, 
 that no one is to be more accountable for errors which, however discord- 
 ant in themselves, when softened and mellowed by being mingled with 
 the errors of others, ascend to the deity in the grateful harmony of uni- 
 versal praise. The latter, with this only difference that he contracts 
 the range of the Infidel's misapprehension of religion, and for the book 
 of the universe takes the bible, contends for the same erroneous prin- 
 ciple. 
 
 I need not shew its workings to this enlightened audience. The 
 are ruinous in the extreme. [Time expired.] 
 
 WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 19TH., Half-peat 9 o'c/ocA, J. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 I appear before you this morning, fellow-citizens, in prosecution of 
 my third proposition : and as this is the fifth day of the discussion, 
 we must proceed with more despatch. We shall then advance direct- 
 ly to that part of our proposition which speaks of Roman Catholic uni- 
 ty and uniformity only intimating to my hearers, that the bishop's 
 remarks in his last speech upon the infallibility of tradition; and his 
 effort to make the succession of the popes to rest upon the same au- 
 thority with our faith in the bible, will be disposed of under proposi- 
 tion the 6th. 
 
 There are two bonds of union in all societies, general and special, 
 the first connects with the whole ; the second with a part, one or more 
 individuals. We explain by examples: 1st. Take the Turkish em- 
 pire. It is united on the divine authority of the Koran, and the divine 
 mission of Mahomet. Acquiescence in these is the general bond of 
 union. But 2nd. There are special bonds, such as unite the respective 
 orders of Mahometans, as the orders of Ali and Omar. These orders 
 are distinct: they are united by a special construction of the Koran. 
 Belief in the Koran is like general attraction : agreement in a particu- 
 lar view of it is like attraction of cohesion. So among Christians. 
 Roman Catholics are united in one great generic idea which charac- 
 terizes the whole sect. That is, the belief in a supreme head of the 
 church on earth a vicar of Christ : and add to that, the exclusive 
 power and authority of the b>?hops. " Bishops are the bond of union 
 amongst Catholics." The clergy, indeed, are the general bond of 
 union amongst Romanists. But there are also special bonds and par- 
 ties in that society, of which we shall take some notice. Protestants 
 have a general bond of union in a generic consideration, as distinguish- 
 ing as that of Mahometans and Roman Catholics. Ackn( wledging 
 the bible alone, as the only perfect and sufficient rule of faith and man- 
 ners, and the duty of all mankind to examine it for themselves, accord- 
 ing to their respective abilities and opportunities, is the generic charac- 
 teristic of Protestants. It is one of the general ideas, in which are 
 united, and which unites all Protestants. But in the second place they 
 are united in a most perfect and unanimous renunciation of that hier- 
 archical authority which is the very essence ot Roman Catholicism. 
 1 affirm that all Protestants are as perfectly united in these two grand 
 principles, as the Roman Catholics are in that of a supreme head in 
 
 12
 
 1"8 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Rome, and in the belief of tradition. Different saints and their pecu- 
 liarities in the Roman Catholic church are specific bonds of union, and 
 as much heads of orders, as are the leaders and views of Protestant 
 sects. But the Protestants are as much united in acts of worship, as 
 Roman Catholics. There are one or two Protestant sects, who diffei 
 in some important matters, and areas repugnant to each other as are 
 Jansenists and Jesuits in the Roman church : but all Protestant sects 
 unite in several essential acts of religious worship in the acknowl 
 edgment of the same code of morals, and in the positive institution 
 of Christianity, such as the Lord's day, the Lord's supper, baptisn, 
 prayer, praise, &c. Sects and differences exist which ought not : but 
 Btill they harmonize a's much in their general and special bonds of 
 union, as do the Romanists themselves. What are the Augustinians, 
 Dominicans, Franciscans, Jansenists, Jesuits, &c. but orders (or sects) 
 called after different saints, and united under special bonds and peculi- 
 arities ? These parties in the Roman church areas pugnacious as Pro- 
 testant parties : communing with each other not more frequently, nor 
 more cordially than do Lutherans, Calvinists, Arminians, &c. They 
 contend warmly against each other. Their quarrels are as rank and 
 fierce as those of Protestants. But this is not all, my friends. Their 
 society is divided on all the great orthodox points of Catholicism. 
 Some say the pope of Rome is supreme in all things on earth, tempo- 
 ral and spiritual, that he is a perfect representative of all the power of 
 Christ, religious and political. A second class disavow these large 
 claims they say he is supreme only in ecclesiastical power : but that 
 he is absolute lord of the church. A third class differ again on the ex- 
 tent of that ecclesiastical supremacy. Some say the pope is above and 
 beyond the councils and clergy ; and that he can annul them at plea- 
 sure. A fourth party say he is subject to a general council, and is on- 
 ly a general superintendent, a mere president, or executive officer 
 that the decrees of councils are the supreme law, and that the pope 
 merely executes them. Here are four distinct sects, on the generic 
 idea of the supreme head. Again there are four parties on the essen 
 tial doctrine of infallibility. Some say it resiues in the pope alone. 
 Bellarmine says, (and he is the organ of a principal party,) " that the 
 pope cannot possibly err " Gelasius says, ''The church represented 
 by a general council is above the pope." A third party say, that infal 
 libility resides in both the pope and a general council united. A fourth 
 say, that all this does not constitute infallibility, but that when the 
 whole church shall have acquiesced in a decree, and signified it by a 
 concurrent response, then, and not till then, are dogmas and decrees in- 
 fallibly correct. The first of these parties believes in the church vir- 
 tual; the second in the church representative; the third in the church 
 diffusive;- the fourth in the church responsive, as some of their canon- 
 ists have taught. 
 
 Yesterday, in discussing infallibility, I said it should be in the head, 
 if any where. My friend the bishop, says, it should be in the body : 
 and, to carry out the figure, if infallibility be in the body, the head 
 must be under the control of the body : for the fallible must yield to 
 the infallible. Now, the body is the animal part of every individual, 
 the seat of the passions and affections ; and therefore ought to be under 
 the 'ominion of the intellectual and moral head : yet this theory makes 
 this body, the sensual and animal body govern. No wonder, then,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 179 
 
 that the Roman Catholic church is always corrupt. Bat from nature 
 and reason and revelation, I would incline to that party that places 
 the government in the head. There are the powers of government, 
 and there ought to be the sceptre. It is abhorrent to reason nay it is 
 rather monstrous, to have the head under the dominion of the body. 
 
 But I hasten to show, that be the government where it may, in the 
 pope, the council, or the whole body, it is always fallible. I shall 
 begin with the head ; and here we have pope against pope. Adrian 
 VI. did, unequivocally, disown the pope's infallibility. Now, from this 
 single fact, I prove the fallibility of the pope ; for Adrian was either 
 right, or he was wrong. If right, the pope is fallible; for he avows 
 that he is. If wrong, the pope is fallible ; for he was a pope and yet 
 did err. This is a dilemma never to be annihilated nor disposed of. 
 Pope Stephen VI. rescinded the decrees of pope Formosus, Pape 
 John annulled those of pope Stephen, and restored those of pope Ste- 
 phen. Sergius III. so hated Formosus and all that he did, as pope, 
 that he obliged all the priests he ordained to be re-ordained. 
 
 Sometimes popes have at one time condemned what themselves 
 passed at another time ; for instance, Martin V. confirmed the decree 
 of the council of Constance, which set a general council above the 
 pope, and yet he afterwards published a decree, forbidding all appeals 
 from the pope to a general council. He was certainly fallible, or, 
 rather, he certainly erred in one case or in the other. What then is true 
 of one pope officially, is true of all popes officially, and in proving a 
 few regular and canonical popes to be fallible, we prove them all to be 
 fallible. 
 
 Is the second opinion better is a general council infallible t I will 
 state a fact or two: the council of Constance says the church in old 
 times allowed the laity to partake of both kinds the bread and the 
 wine, in celebrating the eucharist. The council of Trent says, the laity 
 and unofficiating priests may commune in one kind only. Here, then, 
 we have council against council. In the time of pope Gelasius it was 
 pronounced to be sacrilege to deny the cup to the laity : but now it is 
 uncanonical to allow it. The fourth council of Lateran, A. D. 1215, 
 says, with the concurrence and approbation of pope Innocent III., that 
 the bread and wine in the act of consecration suffer a physical change. 
 Then we begin to read of transubstantiation. Coun. Lat. iv. canon 1. 
 u Did the church always maintain this doctrine ?" Nay, verily, for a 
 host of fathers; nay the whole church for the first four centuries say 
 " the change is only moral," a sanctification, or separation to a spe- 
 cial use. Here we might read a host of fathers, if we thought their 
 testimony necessary. The third council of Lateran, or the eleventh 
 oecumenical council, has decreed that ' 
 
 " JVb enim dif.enda sunt jnramenta sed potins perjuria qua contra ufilita- 
 iem. ecclcsiaslicam el sanctorum patrum venitint inslituta." Con. Lat. iii. cum 
 16 Lal>l>v. Council Sacrosanct, vol. x. p. 1517. 
 
 Literal! j, they are not to be called oaths, but perjuries, which are '.aken 
 astiinxt the interests if the church and the holy fathers. 
 
 Now does not this contradict Numb. xxx. 2, Lev. xix. 12, Deut. xxiii. 
 23, Zech. viii. 17, Psal. xv. 4, and Matthew v. "Thou shalt perform 
 unto the Lord thine oaths." 
 
 Attain, the second council of Lateran, the tenth fficumenical council, 
 forbade the nnrriage of clergy. For 800 years the clergy were allowed 
 to marry! For the first 600 years one-half the canons of council r
 
 180 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 were regulating the clergy as to the affairs of matrimony and celibacy 
 The ancient church had not yet learned to forbid marriage to the clergy 
 for with Paul the clergy yet believed, that " marriage was honorable 
 in all." 
 
 I have thus shown that the church of Rome is not uniform ; and ured 
 \ve farther proof that she is mutable and fallible; without that real unity 
 and uniformity of which she boasts 1 Have we not found pope against 
 pope, council against council, the church of one age against the church 
 of another age, and, by the acknowledgment of a pope, as much strila 
 and party as amongst Protestants. 
 
 Instead of reading that long essay yesterday, (I do not know what 
 it was about, nor who wrote it; I paid no regard to it, ii being obvi- 
 ously read to fill up the time) I say, that instead of such readings, I 
 expected a reply to my remarks on infallibility, or on some of the great 
 matters yet unnoticed; but without any more distinct avowal of his 
 notion of infallibility, I am left to plod my way as before. My op- 
 ponent admits his faith is not the bible alone, but that immense library 
 of one hundred and thirty-Jive folios, already mentioned. But as he is 
 so silent on this point, I have an author in my hand whom he has al- 
 ready commended in this city as good Roman Catholic authority ; and, 
 therefore, I quote him with his approbation. He has these 135 folios in 
 his eye ; and on the question, who shall interpret for public use theRt. 
 Rev. J. F. M. Trevern, D. D. bishop of Strasburg, late of Aire, thus 
 speaks : 
 
 " If each of us was obliged to distinguish, among many articles, those which 
 come from tradition, and those which tlo not, he would hnd himsf If, in a gem ral 
 way, condemned to a labor above his strength. In fact, that part of the preach- 
 ing of the apostles which they did not commit to writing, was at tirst confided 
 solely to the memory of the faithful, fixed in particular churches by the oral in- 
 structions of the first bishops, and afterwards collected partially and as occasion 
 fell out, in the writings of the fathers, and in the act* of the synods and councils. 
 Whence it follows, that to prove that such an article is truly of apostolic tradi- 
 tion, we must consult the belief of the particular churches, examine carefully the 
 lets of the councils and the voluminous writings of the fathers of the Greek 
 and Latin churches. Who does not see that this labor requires ;t space of time 
 and extent of erudition, that renders it in general impracticable? There are, 
 indeed, to be found, men of extraordinary capacity and application, whose Jaste 
 and inclination lead them to this kind of research; with the aid of the rules of 
 criticism, all founded upon good sense, they balance and weigh authorities, they 
 distinguish between what the fathers taught, as individual teachers, and nhat 
 they depose as testifiers to the belief and practice of their time, and they attach 
 with discrimination the different degrees of credibility that are, duf , whether to 
 their doctrine or their deposition. The world is well aware that such labor 
 is calculated but for a small number: and again, after all how successful soever 
 it may be, it scarcely ever leads to incontestible conclusions. We therelore are 
 in want of some other means that may enable us altogether with certainty to 
 arrive at the apostolic and divine traditions 1 The question is, what U this 
 means? ********* 
 
 Our author proceeds : 
 
 "The same judge, the same interpreter that unfolds to us the sense of the 
 divine books, manifest to us also, that of tradition. Now, this judge, this inter- 
 preter. I must tell you here again, is the teaching body of the church, the bish- 
 ops united in the same opinion, at feast in a great majority. It is to them that 
 in the person of the apostles, were made the magnificent promises: " Go teach, 
 I am with vou ; he that heareth you, heareth me. The Spirit of truth shall teach 
 you all truth," &c. They alone then, have the right to teach what is revealed, 
 to declare what is the written or unwritten word: they alone also have always 
 been in possession of the exercise of it. J\'o other ecclesiastics have ever pre- 
 tended to it, whatever have been their rank, their dignity, and learning. Ihey
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 181 
 
 itay be consulted and heard ; it is even proper this should be done, and it always 
 has been done; for they form the couiici' of the bishops, and their erudition ac- 
 quired by long study, throws lijjht upnn the discussions. But as they have not 
 the plentitude of the priesthood, they are not members of the eminent body that 
 lias .succeeded the college of the aposlles, and with it received the promises." 
 Vol. I. pp. 168, 169. 
 
 So then, to quote his words, as found on p. 108, " The opinions 
 adopted by the majority of the bishops are for all an infallible rule of 
 faith !" That is, "I beliere i r . the holy Catholic church." 
 
 But the priesthood are sworn " to interpret the scriptures according 
 to the unanimous consent of the fathers." And if they do not, the 
 people that believe them are innocent ! ! But how can they unless 
 they examine all these fathers ? And what living man has read these 
 135 folios, with or without much care] In what a predicament is the 
 conscience and faith of this people! Here is a task, which 1 say, 
 never was, or can be, performed by man. The bishop can only ful.11 
 his oath by teaching what the Catholic church teaches. We have our 
 Old and New Testament without the apocrypha. They have the bible, 
 the apocrypha, and 135 folios. Let us now compare the Roman and 
 Protestant rules and interpretations ! Both rules, for the sake of argu- 
 ment, be it observed, need interpretation. But it so happens, that 
 a Protestant bishop, and a Roman Catholic bishop, are equally fallible, 
 my opponent being Judge. As the stream, then, cannot rise above the 
 fountain, both interpretations are fallible. Are we not squall 
 
 Where do you find an infallible expositor of the bible? says the 
 Roman Catholic. I answer, Where do you find an infallible exposi- 
 tor of these volumes'? You have a more difficult task, and no better 
 help, than we. The Protestants say that God can speak as intelligibly 
 as the pope, and that he is as benevolently disposed as any priesthood. 
 He does not require an infallible expositor; he is his own expositor. 
 His Spirit is the spirit of knowledge and eloquence, and can sp^ak 
 intelligibly to every listener. As well might we say, that he wi.o 
 made the eye cannot see, as that he who gave man mind and speech can- 
 not address clearly and intelligibly that mind of which he is the author . 
 I ask the Romanist, however, on his own principles, where is his in< 
 fallible expositor of these 135 volumes ? I request a categorical ansvsr. 
 
 BISHOP P. A general council, or the pope, with the acquies^c-.td 
 of the church at large. 
 
 MR. C. How do we approach where shall we find this council 1 
 It has not met for two hundred and seventy-five years. How can they, 
 therefore, settle a point between the bishop and me ? Every age has 
 its errors and divisions. Every individual has his doubts. Ought 
 there not to be a general council eternally in session 1 If, then, thare 
 is none no infallible expositor extant; wherein is the Romanist, with 
 all his proud assumption, superior to the Protestant] It was three 
 hundred and twenty-five years from Christ before the first general 
 council ; and it is two hundred and seventy-five years since the last 
 general council of Trent; and the church has been six hundred years, 
 at two periods, without an infallible expositor ! To show the equality 
 of the two parties, suppose a Jew were converted to Christianity. 
 Suppose he had heard of just two sects of Christians; all the rest 
 being annihilated, hut the Roman Catholic and the Protestant. IIo 
 has read the New Testament. He wishes to join the church. He 
 goes to the Roman Catholic bishop, and says : " I see two churches, 
 
 Q
 
 182 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 sir: I don't know which to join. I read that there is hut one true 
 church." What does the bishop respond ? " Sir, you ought to join 
 our church." The Jew asks, " Your reason, sir? for the Protestant 
 also says, I ought to join his church." The bishop shows him fifteen 
 marks (/the true church. He says, " Read the Bible, and see if these 
 marks are not characteristic of us ; and then judge for yourself." He 
 finds these marks involve the principal part of the New Testament. 
 He reads, however, and joins the church. Has he not decided this 
 question by examining the holy scriptures ? Has he not interpreted 
 for himself? Is not the bishop so far a true Protestant 1 or, has he 
 only become Protestant for the purpose of introducing this proselyte? 
 There is no getting out of this difficulty. I trust my good friend will 
 not pass it with a laugh, and a bold assertion, as usual. Has he not 
 in this renounced his own principles, and turned Protestant, for the 
 sake of gaining the Jew ? 
 
 But, when the Jew has entered the church, and the bishop has told 
 him he. must now believe as the church believes, for he cannot under- 
 stand the Bible: " What!" responds the Jew ; "sir, have I not deci- 
 ded the greatest question to me in the universe 1 I believed in Jesus, 
 and I have found the true church by exercising my own judgment on 
 the scriptures ; andean I not now judge of minor questions 1" May 
 I not again say, that the two systems are perfectly equal T The eter- 
 nal circle of vicious logic you must believe the scriptures on the 
 authority of the church, then the church on the authority of the 
 scriptures: or, you must act as did the aforesaid Jew, on the advice 
 of the bishop. There is not a middle course. My learned antagonist 
 cannot show you a middle way. But I have not yet done with this great 
 theme. I wish to display in other'attitudes, these two " rules of 
 faith." 
 
 And, first, I shall sketch the Protestant rule. Its attributes are 
 seven. 1. It is inspired. 2. It is authoritative. 3. It is intelligible. 
 4. It is moral, 5. It is perpetual, 6. // it catholic. 7. // is perfect. 
 We will now prove this. 
 
 1. It is inspired: for, " Holy men of God " says Peter, "spoke as 
 they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 
 
 2. Authoritative. " The word that /speak to you, shall judge you 
 in the last day," says the Lord from heaven. 
 
 3. Intelligible. To the Ephesian converts he saith, " When you 
 read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ." 
 
 . 4. -Moral. "The word of the Lord is pure, rejoicing the heart." 
 
 5. Perpetual. "The word of the Lord endureth for ever; and this 
 is the word which has been announced to you as glad tidings." 
 
 6. Catholic. " He that is of God, heareth God's word." " Preach 
 the word." " Preach the gospel to every creature." 
 
 7. Perfect. "From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, 
 which are able to make thee wise to salvation.' 1 '' " All scripture given by 
 inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for correction, for instruc- 
 tion in righteousness, thoroughly furnished to every good work.' 1 '' 
 
 All Christendom assents to this. My opponent admits the bible to 
 be inspired. His rule makes his church a sect; for only a part be- 
 lieve in his traditions. All Christians admit our rule of the bible. 
 
 It is perfect. Such is the Protestant rule. Now for the Romanist 
 rule ! TSe bible being a part of the Roman Catholic rule, is such
 
 KOMAW CATHOLIC RELIGION. 183 
 
 only as explained by the apocrypha, the traditions of the fathers, the 
 decrees and canons of councils, or in the hands of bishops ; so com- 
 pletely humanized, as to lose all its peculiar attributes, and is made 
 to partake of all the characters of the mediums, through which it is 
 given to that people ; and, therefore, of the whole Roman Catholic 
 rule, the attributes are just the opposite of those seven of the Pro- 
 testant's. 
 
 1. It is uninspired : consequently, being human, it can have no au- 
 thority over the conscience ; and this makes it 
 
 2. Unauthoritative. God alone is Lord of the conscience, and no 
 man can make a law to govern it. Hence a Christian never can he 
 subordinate to any institution in religion, that wants the sanction of 
 divine authority. 
 
 3. Unintelligible. No man can ever find time to examine all the 
 creed of Roman Catholics. It is constantly accumulating ; and if any 
 one had time to read it all, he never could understand it. 
 
 4. Immoral. This is that attribute which 1 wish specially to con- 
 sider. The other properties are all consequences of those already no- 
 ticed. But this demands a candid and faithful examination.. It gives 
 me no pleasure to dwell upon this theme, to expatiate on the immoral 
 character of the papistic rule of faith. 'Tis here, indeed, we find the 
 root of the manifold corruptions of that institution ; and as I came here 
 not to flatter, but to oppose error and defend truth, it is my duty con- 
 scientiously and benevolently to expose the immoral tendencies dftthis 
 system. 
 
 We have heard the gentleman say, he was glad of an opportunity to 
 discuss Catholicism, to make Protestants understand better its peculiar 
 doctrines. I wish, myself, to hear his expositions, to see if he can 
 make it more acceptable. Therefore, I shall endeavor to tell my story, 
 candidly and faithfully, and give him the opportunity he desires. This 
 is my first effort against Romanism. It was not of my selection or 
 seeking, that I now appear before you : but as I am providentially, as 
 I regard it, on this arena, I shall reveal to you some of the secrets of 
 that institution, which seeks to be rooted in this Protestant soil. I 
 shall attempt this in the best spirit: for I wish to see my opponent 
 honorably wipe from his escutcheon any stain of the kind, that I may 
 allfge. On these points, I shall be happy to be assured that his sys- 
 tem is better than we Protestants can now regard it. 
 
 I say, then, the Roman Catholic rule of faith is immoral. This, my 
 friends, is a serious and weighty charge, and deserves to be clearly and 
 fully sustained. Before displaying my proof, I will only premise, 
 that auricular confession, penance, the mass, absolution, and other 
 parts of the system will pass before us in this allegation, sustaining 
 which, wiil anticipate some of our labors on the other propositions. 
 
 I shall firpt read from the Catechism of the council of Trent on the 
 power of the priesthood to forgive sin, according to their rule of faith. 
 Auricular confession, is by this infallible council declared " necessary 
 for the remission of sins." 
 
 " The voice ot' the pritst,' 1 says the council of Trent, who is legitimately con- 
 stituted a minister for the remission of sins, is to be heard as that of Christ him- 
 self, \vlio s;ii * to the lame man, " -Son, be of good cheer, thy sins are forgiven 
 thec." Cat. 'ouncil of Trent, p. 180. 
 
 Penance by the same council is thus defined : 
 
 Foiui or I'K.v.VJSCi;. " Penance U the channel through which the blood of
 
 184 DEBASE ON THE 
 
 Christ flow into the soul, and washes away the stains contracted after baptism." 
 Id. ib, " The form of the. absolution or pardon, granted bv the priest, is this; 
 'I A!. SOLVE THEE." Id. p. 181. 
 
 The priest says positively, " / absolve thee." Unlike the authority 
 of him, who anciently declared the leper clean, he claims really and 
 truly to absolve. The council declares : 
 
 " Unlike the authority given to the priests of the old law, to declare the leper 
 cleansed from his leprosy, the power with which the priests of the new law are 
 Invested, is not simply to declare that sins are forgiven, but as the ministers of 
 God really to absolvefrom sin." Id. p. 182. 
 
 The priests, then, as ike ministers of God, really absolve from sin 
 And more insolent still, the priest is said not only to represent Christ 
 but to discharge the functions of Jesus Christ: 
 
 " The rites used in t.Se administration of this sacrament, also demand the seri- 
 ous attention of the faithful. Humbled in spirit the sincere penitent casts him- 
 self down at the feet of the priest, to testify, by this his humble demeanor, that 
 he acknowledges the necessity of eradicating pride, the root of all those enor- 
 mities which he now deplores. In the minister of God, who sits in the tribunal 
 of penance as his legitimate judge, he venerates thepower and person of our Lord 
 Jesus Christ; for in the administration of this, as in that of the other sacraments, 
 the priest represents the character, and discharges the functions of Jesus Christ." 
 Coun. Trent, p. 182. 
 
 Again Roman Catholics teach that penance remits all sin : 
 
 " There is no sin, however grievous, no crime, however erroneous, or howe- 
 ver frequently repeated, which penance does not remit." Id. p. 183. 
 
 This is the proper ground on which to claim the most servile obedi* 
 encfto the priests: 
 
 "If therefore, we read in the pages of inspiration, of some who earnestly im- 
 plored the mercy of God, but implored it in vain, it is because they did not repent 
 sincerely, and from their hearts. When we also meet in the sacred scriptures, 
 and in the writings of the fathers, passages which seem to say that some sins are 
 irremissible, we are to understand such passages to mean, that it is very dilh'cult 
 to obtain the pardon of them. A disease may be said to be incurable, when the 
 patient loathes the medicine that would accomplish his cure; and, in some sense, 
 some sins may be said to be irremissible, when the sinner rejects the grace of 
 God, the proper medicine of salvation." Id. ib. " The penitent must submit 
 himself to thejudsrment of the priest who is the vicegerent of God." Ib. p. 183. 
 
 Therefore, all must confess once a year. 
 
 "According to the canon of the council of Lateran, which begins: Omnes, 
 utriusqne stxus, it commands all the faithful to confess their sins at least once 4 
 year." Id. p. 193. 
 
 But this immoral law presumes farther yet. It changes the laws of 
 God, and divides sins into venial and mortal, and fixes the price. As 
 every thing depends upon the authority of these a/Iegata I have hitherto 
 quoted from the catechism of the council of Trent,* I now introduce 
 one of the most popular of the saints of _the modern church. This 
 eaint Ligori was sainted by saint Pius VII. that best of modern popes, 
 who restored the order of the Jesuits, and the " Holy Inquisition." 
 Saint Ligori writes the moral theology of the church of Rome in some 
 eight or nine volumes : and so orthodox, that his works are owned al- 
 most by every priest. I quote from a synopsis of that system of which 
 we shall hereafter speak more particularly. We shall hereafter heai 
 the saint in his definitions of sins. 
 
 " This is a mortal sin," says Ligori, " which, on account of its enormity, de- 
 stroys the grace and friendship of God, and deserves eternal punishment. It is 
 called mortal, because it destroys the principle of spiritual life, ivhich i habitual 
 grace, and kills the soul. 
 
 * See Catechism, council of Trent, as revised by John Hughes of Philadelphia , jiriest of 
 fit. John's church, pp. 1;>2, l'J3.
 
 . JCOBIAW CATHOLIC RELIGION. 185 
 
 Vwrial m is that which, on account of its levity, does not destroy the grace 
 and friendship of God although it diminishes the fervor of charity, and deserves 
 a temporal punishment. It is called venial, because the principle of the spiritual 
 life,. grace, being- still sound, it afreets the soul with languor, that is easily cured, 
 the pardon of which is easily obtained." Ligor. lib. v. n. 51. [Synopsis, p. 20. 
 
 The Roman Catholic rule of faith erects a tribunal of confession un- 
 known in scripture, and commands all to come to it at least once a 
 year. It moreover institutes a new office called confessor, unknown 
 in the New Testament, and gives to him the office of a father, a phy- 
 sician, a teacher, and a judge. 
 
 " The oliicts that a good confessor is bound to exercise," "are four: namely, 
 those of Father, Physician, Teacher, and Judge." Ligor. Theol. T. viii. p. 7. 
 
 The confessor forgives all sins on confession, even the sin against 
 the Holy Spirit : 
 
 "Thtrt- is no sin, however grievous, no crime however enormous, or however 
 frequently repeated, which penance does not remit." Cat. Conn. Trent, p. 183. 
 
 PENANCE here means the " Tribunal of confession :" for this tri- 
 bunal is sometimes called simply " confession" " The sacrament of 
 confession :" at other times it is called the " tribunal of penance." 
 Sometimes simply " Penance," and he who confesses is called " the 
 penitent." But satisfactions and penances are to be apportioned ac- 
 cording to the discretion of the priest. 
 
 "According to the council of Trent, (Sess. xiv. c. 8.) the satisfactions" (by 
 which they mean penances,) " ought to be in proportion to the crime, since those 
 confessors who enjoin light penancet for grievous sins, participate of those sins; 
 nevertheless the confessor, for just reasons, can diminish the penances, provided 
 the penitent is affected with violent compunction, or if it be during the tune of 
 i jubilee, or a plenary indulgence, and especially, if he labor under any infirmi 
 ty of body or mind. And lastly, (to be brief,) always whenever a prudent fear 
 is entertained, lest the penitent would not perform penance due to his sins. 
 Such is the comnx>n doctrine taught by the doctors, with St. Thomas." Ligor. 
 Prax. Con. N. ii. 
 
 But still worse: this immoral law or rule of faith repeals and annuls 
 certain positive divine laws. I have here two catechisms, published 
 oy the authority of the church. They have both expunged wholly the 
 second commandment ; so that it should not stand in the way of pay- 
 ing reverence to images. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 10 o'clock, A. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 If my friend, Mr. CAMPBELL, has failed to establish against the 
 Catholic church, a single one of those propositions, which have been 
 so conspicuously before the public for the last two or three months, 
 and if I have established two or three of them against'his own vague 
 theory, it is not for want of splendid abilities on his part, or the pos- 
 session of them on mine. The reason of his failure, is the inherent 
 weakness of the cause he advocates, as the true secret of my success, 
 is to be found in the impenetrable, diamond strength, and beauty of the 
 institution, which, in an evil hour for his past glory as a controversial- 
 ist, he volunteered to attack. He has this day (and again I thank him) 
 brought np, for discussion, the most important subject that can occupy 
 or engross the attention of this enlightened audience, viz. the rule of 
 faith. If fairly published, as I have every reason to believe this con- 
 troversy will be, it will send forth sound and useful information, 
 through the whole length and breadth of the land, upon a topic of the 
 most vital interest; and I will, most joyfully, meet Mr. C. on that 
 Q 2 24
 
 166 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 question, for I hail with exultation such an opportunity of dispelling 
 prejudice and misunderstanding with regard to our real principles. / 
 will give categorical answers to all the questions he has propounded ; 
 and, therefore, do I take up the subjct he has been pleased to touch. 
 1. He says, the methods of electing the pope are various. But let 
 that pass : the method is nothing. It is with his authority we are con- 
 cerned. He has wasted much time in building up a house of sand, to 
 show how easily he could demolish it, by showing that the pope is 
 not infallible ; whereas, I have repeatedly told him, that the Catholic 
 church has never taught that the pope's infallibility was an article of 
 faith. He spoke of some more or less important but unessential points of 
 difference of opinion between Dominicans and Jesuits. But he should 
 have shown, to establish the proposition before this house, that these or- 
 ders disagree with regard to articles of faith. Their minor differences are 
 nothing, so long as they implicitly believe every article of faith revealed 
 by almighty God and proposed for their belief by the church, which they 
 all hear, and which they regard as the "pillar and ground of the 
 truth." This is the solid and immovable foundation of their union. 
 The case of the cup given to, or withheld from, the laity, as I have 
 already told him, is one merely of discipline. It may now be given, 
 or not, as the pope may see cause. In the time of Gelasius, it was 
 pronounced sacrilege to deny the cup to the laity ; and, if all my 
 hearers had read church history, I need not tell them, it was because 
 of tbe leaven of Manicheism still working in pretended communi- 
 cants, who forbade the use of wine as coming from the evil principle. No 
 father of the church, however, said, that the consecration of the eucharis- 
 tic species, is a mere ' separation,' or the change only a ' moral change.' 
 I defy him to the proof. Mr. C. says : " So far Protestants and Cath- 
 olics are equal ;" for, that they have also a grand generic principle. 
 viz : that the Bible is their rule of faith, and the Bible alone. Now, 
 I take up the organ of a numerous body of Christians, the Christian 
 Palladium, and I meet him here with a strong argument in my favor, 
 upon this principle. Speaking of Mr. Campbell, (I mean by this no per- 
 sonality, that can be thought invidious : I intend none) the editor ob- 
 serves : " He frequently speaks of ' the Sible alone ,-' but this is not a 
 term used generally by the brethren in New England, and is taught 
 by few except Mr. C. We never knew our brethren to boast of walk- 
 ing by the Bible alone. THIS WE REGARD AS AN ERROR, LET WHO WILL 
 PROCLAIM IT. We say, give us the Sible, but not alone. LET us HAVE 
 A GOD, A CHRIST, A SPIRIT, AND A MINISTRY ACCOMPANYING IT. There 
 was a law given to the Jews, and also a testimony, which they were 
 bound to observe. The testimony of the inspired prophets did not con- 
 tradict the law, but taught and enforced the same truths. The ancients 
 vrere to walk by the law and the testimony, which was called a word. 
 (Is. viii. 20.) What this " redoubtable captain" of reform says, of 
 sailing sometimes under this flag and sometimes under that, is per- 
 fectly applicable to " but I will not read further: this is sufficient 
 for my argument. The Bible alone is not the rule of faith to all Pro- 
 testants. Quakers, Mormons, &c., think not so, as I have already 
 proved. And, now, Mr. Campbell can do infinitely more with the in- 
 tellects of his hearers, than the pope has ever done with those of Cath- 
 olics, if he can persuade them that the differences between Protestants, 
 who all take the Bible for their rule of faith, are unimportant. Is tbe
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 187 
 
 divinity of Christ an important or an unimportant article ? One class 
 of Bible-reading Protestants admit the doctrine ; another reject it with 
 horror: pretty unity this! The Episcopalians believe in the necessity 
 f){ submission to the bishops ; and eloquently have I heard the author- 
 ity of the church advocated by them. They do not say that the church 
 is infallible, and in this they are inconsistent. But will they allow that 
 the difference between them and Presbyterians is unimportant ? Is the 
 doctrine of a hell, with endless torments there for the wicked, unim- 
 portant ] One class of Bible-readers hold this also, and another class 
 reject it ! Alas ! for the declaration of my friend, that he can prove 
 whatever he states to be a fact. I strongly suspect a man who makes 
 such asseverations. 
 
 He is loud in his panegyrics on the unity of Protestants in essential 
 acts of worship : they pray together, &c. If this were even so, of 
 what avail is it, when they differ in essential doctrines. But, is not my 
 friend aware, that this is by no means a fact 1 ? And what reliance can 
 we place on his statements of what occurred centuries ago, when here, 
 at home, and refutation nigh at hand, he makes such curious assertions ? 
 
 Did not a case occur, last summer, within sixty miles of Cincinnati, 
 at Dayton, when the Episcopalian minister, the Rev. Mr. Allen, for- 
 bade the Rev. Mr. Peabody, a Unitarian clergyman, of irreproachable 
 morals and great amiatileness of disposition, to preach in his church ? 
 Did not the bishop reprimand the vestry, and Episcopalian minister, 
 for having previously allowed him to preach there ] I think the 
 Episcopalian bishop acted, in this respect, as he should have done. I 
 blame none of the parties concerned, but I state an incontrovertible 
 fact. Again, at Pottsville, Pennsylvania, another case occurred. A 
 Unitarian minister died there, and the Episcopal clergyman refused to 
 say prayers at his funeral, because of his religious belief. What, 
 then, becomes of my friend's vague and general assertion, about unity 
 among Protestants in essential acts of worship ? Will he, then, ex- 
 communicate the Unitarian ? and, if he once begin, how many more 
 sects must be put out of the pale ? 
 
 Let him shew me that a Jesuit or a Dominican, a Franciscan, or a 
 Benedictine, or an Augustinian ever refused to let a member of either 
 of these orders preach in his church, or to say prayers over a corpse 
 because of the difference of orders'! Such a thing has never been heard 
 of; so that we have unity, and Protestants have none, neither in doc- 
 trine, nor in worship; neither in essentials nor in non-essentials, them- 
 selves being judges. 
 
 If my hearers wish for a practical and convincing proof of Catholic 
 uniformity of faith, they have only to enquire of the emigrants from 
 the various countries of Europe, who have fled from the oppression of 
 their rulers at home, to find free and happy homes amongst us here, 
 and I promise them that however awkward their appearance, however 
 broken their language, or uncouth their apparel, they will all answer 
 the same on doctrinal points. America, Asia, Europe, Africa, New 
 Holland, our faith is every where the same, like our God and our 
 church. Who can make void the prayer of Christ for unity ? Who 
 can disturb the church's union ? As well might he pretend to make 
 the harmony of heaven to sleep. Is this union exemplified among 
 Protestants? The very contrary is true. And why? Because the 
 apple of discord is flung among them. The seeds of disorganization and
 
 188 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 death wars thickly sown in Protestantism from the birth. Sects multiply 
 without end their name is Legion. My friend was quite witty, about 
 the 135 ponderous folios which, according to him, a Catholic must 
 read to understand the doctrines of his church. But does he not per- 
 ceive that a Protestant is infyiitely worse off] For he must read lan- 
 uages in which the fathers of the church have not written Hebrew, 
 yriac, Arabic; as well as those in which the fathers did write, Greek, 
 Latin, &c. before he can form a prudent judgment that he has acquired, 
 the elementary knowledge necessary to understand his rule cf faith. 
 He must read folios of commentators and learned dissertations on 
 controverted texts. He must decide for himself what books of scrip- 
 ture are genuine and what apocryphal, or spurious. For this purpose 
 he must explore the archives of the ancient churches, all the dusty 
 tomes and ponderous folios of the ecclesiastical writers, to ascertain 
 what books were regarded in their times as canonical, and what as un- 
 canonical. And when he has, if ever, accomplished this herculean 
 task, he will be no better off than when he began, for he can never re- 
 ly on the testimony of those fathers, whom he considers just as liable 
 to have been mistaken as himself! Thus he can never be sure that he 
 possesses objective truth, or the revealed will of God : he can never 
 be sure that he possesses subjective truth, that is, that he has a perfect 
 knowledge of what that will is. Thus he can never be sure that his 
 rule of faith is inspired, authoritative, perfect. / call on my learnea 
 friend to prove the contrary of this argument, if he can. And if he can- 
 not, I have clearly established the contrary of t.is proposition, viz : 
 that Protestants are not uniform in their faith, neither can they be. Now 
 mark the difference on the Catholic side of the argument. We go for 
 the Bible and tradition the whole word of God, written and unwrit- 
 ten. We take the Bible and the church; the Bible and the testimony. 
 This renders for us assurance doubly sure. We believe that Christ 
 established a church on earth which he made the guardian of the divine 
 deposite. From that church, that divinely appointed guardian we receive 
 the heavenly gift. She vouches for its accuracy, and on her testimony 
 we receive the Bible, as an inspired, authoritative, perpetual, Catholic, 
 perfect, and, explained by her, intelligible volume. But as we know 
 on the authority of St. John xviii. 21, 25, that the world itself could not, 
 as he thought, contain all that Christ spoke, and he always spoke 
 to instruct or edify as we know that Peter " with many other words" 
 not recorded in the Acts of the Apostles, convinced the Jews that 
 Jesus was the Messiah as we know moreover that St. Paul com- 
 manded the Thessalonians, 2d. Ep., 2d. ch., 14. v. to hold the tra- 
 d-ttions which they had learned, whether by the word, or his epistle; 
 and ordered Timothy to hold the form of sound words which he had 
 heard from him, in faith ; we therefore place the word of God, so con- 
 veyed to us, by the side of Scripture, and in this, as I have just shewn, 
 the Scripture itself is our guide. Our traditions do not, like those :f 
 the Pharisees whom Christ reproached, make the Scripture void. We> 
 believe nothing contrary to the Bible nothing that the Bible does not 
 clearly approve. The same God that revealed the Bible, established 
 the church. They do not contradict, they mutually sustain each other. 
 I did not say that the pope is inspired, that the council is inspired, or 
 that the church is inspired; but I do say that the church, whether as- 
 sembled in a general council, or diffused throughout the world, is as
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KKLIGION. 189 
 
 certainly assisted by the Holy Ghost to teach all truth, as the evan- 
 gelists and other writers of the Holy Scriptures were inspired by the 
 same divine Spirit to WRITE the special truths ivhich they were commis- 
 sioned to reveal to particular churches, and on particular occasions. A 
 Catholic is under no necessity of knowing every thing that has been 
 ever said or done by the doctors and fathers of the church, before he 
 can understand what are the articles of his faith. He knows that, in 
 regard to doctrine they unanimously agree in receiving the Apostles' 
 creed. Hence he is sure that, " I believe in God, the Father Almighty, 
 Creator of Heaven and Earth" is an article of faith which none of these 
 fathers contradict, and he has the same absolute certainty with regard 
 to all the remaining articles, viz : I believe in Jesus Christ, in the 
 Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the 
 forgiveness of sins. So far for the doctrine ; besides which articles 
 he is in the habitual state of mind to believe implicitly whatever God 
 has revealed and proposed by his church. Then for the natural and 
 moral law he has an equally comprehensive epitome, viz : the Ten 
 commandments of God ; with respect to which he knows that there 
 has never been the slightest difference of opinion. 
 
 Neither the pope, nor a general council, nor the whole church has 
 now, or ever had, the power to change, or suppress an article of the 
 creed, or a precept of the decalogue. Is there any thing vague in 
 this] any thing indistinct 1 anything unscriptural or antiscriptural? 
 
 My friend does not hear, or correctly state what I say. I did not 
 say that the body ruled the head. It would be a contradiction in terms ; 
 because the body supposes a head and a heart, which every body 
 ought to have. There must be no schism in the body. He has made 
 some very eloquent observations on the impossibility of determining 
 where the infallibility resides, whether in the head or in the body or 
 both &c. in the pope, or in a general council, and argues that we may 
 therefore as well have none at all. Now, let me illustrate this point. 
 Has not my friend a mind and one too highly endowed by nature 1 
 Well, does he know where it resides? Is it in his head; or in his 
 heart, or in his stomach ? (a laugh) Does he know where to put his 
 hand upon it ? There are various theories upon this subject among 
 scientific men. But who denies that he has a mind ] I repeat, who 
 denies the existence of mind ? Does it affect this belief to say that 
 we cannot tell whether it is here or there in the body or around it ? So 
 it is with the heavenly mind that guides the church. Even if we did 
 not know its exact place of residence, we could easily judge of its 
 influence and guidance by its effects. But we do know where it evin- 
 ces its presence, as I have more than once explained to the gentleman. 
 
 What has Adrian's opinion to do with the question? It was but his 
 personal, private opinion, and no article of faith. Whether this opi- 
 nion was rig-ht, or wrong, all I said stands good. The witty conceit 
 of my friend was a sophistry suggested by the pagan oracles, who 
 could respond in such ambiguous terms, that it might be interpreted 
 in favor of the oracle's foreknowledge according to the event ; for 
 instance a king going out to battle would be told, " You will destroy a 
 great city;" but whether it was his own, or his enemies', depended on 
 the issue. The idea is borrowed from Pagan craft. ' 
 
 [I am now admonished to dilate a little longer on the decision of 
 the council of Constance with regard to the ' Cup.' 1 have frequently,
 
 190 DEBATE Oy THE 
 
 in my intercourse with persons not Catholic, heard this difficulty pro- 
 posed ; and I am glad of the opportunity, once for all, of explaining 
 it. Why does the Roman Catholic church withhold the cup from 
 the laity T In the early ages, the holy eucharist was communicated to 
 the faithful under either species ; often under both. When the eucha- 
 rist was carried, as it was the practice of primitive Christians to carry 
 it with them in all their sojournings, by sea and land, as wine was ex- 
 posed to sour in tropical climes, they consequently carried, on their 
 travels, only the species of Bread. Did they believe that the virtue 
 of the eucharist was thus destroyed ] No. They knew with St. Paul 
 that Jesus Christ, rising from the dead, dieth no more. Death shall 
 no longer have dominion over him. They knew therefore that his 
 flesh was living flesh, not dead and bloodless ; and that, consequent- 
 ly, in the eucharist, under either species the flesh and blood are in- 
 separably united. 
 
 What was the reason of the abolition of the practice 1 When the 
 deacons distributed the consecrated elements to the faithful, there 
 were many infirm, decrepit, and palsied communicants, from whose 
 trembling hands, or lips, it was feared, as it had frequently occurred, 
 the cup might fall, and thus might the holy elements be trodden under 
 fool and profaned. A contrary usage was therefore instituted, and it 
 has since prevailed. The dislike, indeed disgust, which many persons 
 feel for wine, the unwillingness to drink from a chalice which had 
 passed from mouth to mouth, &c. &c. are causes which, in all pro- 
 bability, prevent a change in the present disciplinary regulation, but 
 the church could to morrow reestablish the abolished practice of giv- 
 ing the cup to the laity, if she please. She did so, since the ^Pro- 
 testant reformation, in favor of the Bohemians. 
 
 The subject of oaths and perjuries was quoted. Any man in his 
 sober senses must discern that my friend has mistaken the meaning 
 of the pope. Examine the circumstances. He supposes the truth 
 that the church neither can nor does require any thing contrary to 
 justice and judgment, and truth, which, in all her standards, and in all 
 her catechisms, she teaches as the essential conditions, for every law- 
 ful oath. Again, she every where teaches, with St. Paul, that an oa'th, 
 contrary to conscience, is a sin. 
 
 The pope knew that the church could not that God himself, who 
 founded her as the pillar and ground of the truth, could not be pleas- 
 ed with sin, or served by a lie. Let me illustrate this matter and 
 set it at rest for ever. An infidel, swears that he will write against 
 the utility of the bible, deny its authenticity, undermine its evidences, 
 cast it into the flames. Is his oath an act of religion ] Is it not rather 
 a perjury ] Again a man swears to take away the life of another 
 man, justly or unjustly, he boots not. Is not his oath a perjury, 
 rather than an oath, since it is manifestly against the utility of socie- 
 ty and, conssquently, against the order of God ? It is remarkable T^AI 
 the pope spsaks too of an oath against the teaching of the fathers, 
 " contra instituta pairum," than whose sermons against all grievous 
 crimes, and in an especial manner, against perjury, nothing can be 
 conceived more denunciatory, more truly terrific. Is it fair is it lo- 
 gical, to draw from the premises a Conclusion so vituperative 1 
 
 To force a shadow of uniformity, the thirty-nine articles were drawn 
 up by the church of England, and the clergy of that church, by a cruel 
 tyranny over conscience, compelled to swear to them. Many eminent
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 191 
 
 divines of that church have taught that the articles are not to ba 
 sworn to with unqualified assefft, but that the mental reservation, " as 
 I understand them, "is allowed : while the sovereign lord, or lordess, 
 of church and state, and many no less eminent divines, have insisted 
 that the articles must be sworn to with the most entire and unqualifi- 
 ed submission. Is this, in my friend's estimation, the reverence due 
 to the solemnity of an oath 1 ? or is it not taking the holy name in 
 vain 1 Catholic priests in this country take no oath. I took none 
 The first oath I took was one of allegiance to the United States, ab 
 juring all foreign potentates, &c., as the oath is couched. This oath 
 I took in the hands of Judges John and Thomas Buchanan, in Fred- 
 erick, Maryland. I also took an oath,' several years afterwards, when 
 consecrated a bishop, to testify my belief in and failhfnl adherence to 
 .he doctrines of my church. This was a further confirmation of the 
 oath which I had previously taken. This is no immorality. 
 
 We are again referred to a change in the 'doctrine' of the church. 
 'The second council of the Lateran," so says Mr. C. "forbade the 
 marriage of the clergy, whereas nothing was more common in the first 
 eight centuries than for priests to marry. ," Now, in the first place, 
 celibacy is no part of Catholic doctrine, at all. It is not an article 
 of faith. The pope could, to-morrow, change that law, and allow 
 the Roman Catholic clergy, as the Greek priests do, to marry. It is 
 one of the bright features of our ministry, that the time and means, 
 which the care, and support of a family would engross, are devoted hy 
 a priest to the .ad vantage, spiritual and temporal, of his flock. Marriage 
 is a good, wise, and noble institution. " Increase and multiply," is the 
 command of God. But we hold that it is more perfect, or as St. Paul 
 says, "IT is GOOD" for the " Priests of the Lamb " to abstain. God, 
 for whose sake they make the sacrifice, will sustain them through temp- 
 tation. Keep thyself chaste, says St. Paul to Timothy, 1st Ep. ch. 
 v. 21. Again, St. John says: "And I heard a voice from heaven, as 
 the voice of harpers harping on their harps, and they sung as it w^re 
 a new canticle, before the throne, and before the four living creatures 
 and the ancients ; and no man could say the canticle, but those hun- 
 dred and forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth. 
 These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are vir- 
 gins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were 
 purchased from among men, the first-fruits to God and to the Lamb : 
 and in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot 
 before the throne of God." What does all this mean? Is it not evi- 
 dently the highest eulogy that could be pronounced on the state to 
 which their holy functions, as priests of the spotless Victim of 
 our altars, daily summon the clergy of our church ? I glory in this 
 feature of our discipline. Death before dishonor to a virginal priest- 
 hood ! 
 
 In the second place it is a wide mistake, to say that nothing was 
 more common, for the first six hundred years, than for priests to mar- 
 ry. The general council of Nice enforced, by a special enactment, 
 the celibacy of the clergy. This was the first general council .of the 
 Catholic church ; and the practice, it enforced, was no innovation. 
 The councils of Neo Caesarea and Ancyra had, several years previ- 
 ously, made laws to this effect for priests and deacons. How was 
 the circumstance introduced into the council of Nice? Several bish- 
 ops, priests and deacons, had beeu married before their ordination. It
 
 192 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 was proposed to compel those who had not voluntarily returned ic 
 singleness of life, to separate from thffir wivs. Paphnurius, an un- 
 married bishop, in consequence of the abuse of the Manichseans, who 
 considered marriage as coming from the evil principle, dissuaded the 
 council from this course, and so the bishops agreed, for all past mar- 
 riages. So generally, however, was the celibacy of the Greek clergy 
 then established, that even Protestant historians Mosheim, 1st vol. 
 p. 65, complain of the melancholy, morose and unsocial institution, 
 in the second century. " The sensual man," says St. Paul, " per- 
 ceiveth not the things that are of the Spirit of God, for it is foolishness 
 to AzVre." 1st Cor. ii. 14. But of the many curious things which my 
 friend has said, most unwittingly, in my favor, in the course of this 
 debate, the most curious of all is that he should have, himself, in- 
 formed us, that for the first six hundred years, one half the canons 
 were occupied with the regulation of the clergy as to this affair of 
 celibacy!! And why, if the clergy were allowed to marry? Is not 
 this, independently of the acts of these councils, which have reached 
 us, irresistible proof of the care taken to obtain an unmarried, a pu< 
 clergy ? This is not immorality. 
 
 Confession" is not an immoral doctrine. It is a holy institution. 
 This I shall prove in due course of time. I agree with the venerable 
 bishop Trevern, the learned author of the "Amicable Discussion," and 
 of the "Answer to Faher's Difficulties of Romanism." Let my friend 
 but study these pages with sincerity, and he, too, will become a Catho- 
 lic. How different the doctrine of the Catholic bishop of Strasburgh, 
 and of the Protestant bishop Onderdonk, of Philadelphia. The for- 
 mer shews clearly how the most humble Catholic can have a divine 
 assurance for the truth of his religion; the latter, as I have myself 
 heard him declare, in St. James' church, Philadelphia, in the year 1832, 
 (and his pastoral charge has ben since published, and it will prove 
 what I here say,) teaches that not even the most learned Protestant 
 can ever be positively sure that either himself or his church is right! 
 And yet, St. Paul says, without faith it is impossible to please God. By 
 faith, he of course means true faith and yet the Protestant bishop says 
 we never can be sure that we have that faith ! What becomes now of 
 the Protestant infallibility, for which my friend so strenuously argued 
 to-day 1 The bishop's conclusion, on Protestant grounds, is more rea- 
 sonable than Mr. C.'s. As long as two pious and able men, of different 
 denominations, after all their efforts at truth, come to different and op- 
 posite conclusions upon essential matters, how can either say " i aro 
 right," and " my neighbor is wrong?" What, lam asked, is the course 
 I would pursue with one who is not yet a Christian, but anxious to be 
 instructed in the evidences of Christianity? Why, the course I would 
 pursue is this: I would address his reason alone, as long as he has no 
 better guide convince him that the bible is, at least, authentic his- 
 tory and that he can rely upon the truth of the facts recorded in it, 
 as he would on human testimony. I would introduce him to Jesi;s 
 Christ, whose character is there portrayed, whose miracles are tl.t-re 
 recorded. I would tell him why he came on earth ; how he founded a 
 church to explain whatever was difficult in the bible, after ha%'ing col- 
 lected all its books together, what no man could do for himself; how 
 he established that church as the pillar and ground of the truth, and 
 said of its pastors, " He that heareth you, heareth me ;" and when J
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 193 
 
 had convinced him of the authority of the church, I would not require 
 of him to abjure reason, but I would consign him to a higher and safer 
 gnide, that church, herself the immaculate bride of Christ. 
 
 Now my friend's allusion to the Jew, brings a story to my mind, 
 and I cannot answer his queries better than by relating it. A Protes- 
 tant and a Catholic clergyman walking together, met a Jewish Rabbi, 
 "Well, Solomon," says the Protestant minister, "here we three are 
 met, and all of different religions, which of us is right 1 ?" "I'll tell 
 thee," says the Israelite, " If the Messiah has not come, I am right; 
 if he has come, the Catholic is right; but whether he has come or not, 
 yaa are wrong." (A laugh.) [Time expires.] 
 
 Half past 11 o'clock, A. M. 
 MR CAMPBELL rises 
 
 1 shall respond to such matters as have a bearing on the question, as 
 soon as I have finished my exposition of the immoral tendency .of the 
 Romish rule of faith. 
 
 That common cursing or damning, which offends OUT ears in all 
 the lanes and streets and highways, is authorized in the following 
 words : 
 
 " To curse insensible creatures, such as the wind, the rain, the years, the days 
 fire, &c., is no blasphemy, unless the one who curses, expressly connects them 
 in relation to God, by saying, for instance, cursed be the fire of God, the bread 
 of God," &c. Ligor. Prax. Conf. N. 30. 
 
 Again : the Roman Catholic rule of faith sanctions a violation of the 
 third commandment. 
 
 : "To curse the living is a mortal sin, when it is 
 
 formal; that is, (as Cajetan explains it,) when he who curses intends and wishes 
 a grievous evil to befall the one he curses: but it is no mortal sin to curse the 
 living, when the curse pronounced is merely material; that is, when it is pro- 
 nounced without any evil intention. And why is it not a mortal sin? because 
 he who curses a living man does not always intend to curse the soul, or to der 
 pise its substance, in which, in an especial -manner, the image of God shines* 
 forth, but he curses the man without considering, or reflecting about his soul, 
 and therefore, in cursing him he does not commit a grievous sin."' Id. ib. 29. 
 
 License is given to violate, in some way or other, every precept of 
 the Decalogue. The Sabbath as a divine institution is thus set aside: 
 
 "As to the obligation of hearing 
 
 the HOLV THI.VG," (which is the popish epithet for attending mass,) " let the 
 penitent be questioned in regard to whether he has omitted that HOLY THIM; ?" 
 (to attend mass.) "_As to servile works, let him be asked how long he has 
 worked ? and what kind of work he did 1 for, according to the doctors generally, 
 those who work two hours are excused from grievous sin; nay, other doctors 
 allow more, especially if the labor be light, or if there be some more notable 
 reason. Let him also be asked, why he labored; whether it was the custom of 
 the place, or whether it was from necessity? Because poverty cau excuse from 
 sin in working on the Sabbath; as the poor are generally excused, who, if they 
 do not labor on the Sabbath, cannot support themselves or their families; a tlitv 
 also are excused who sew upon the Sabbath, because they cannot do it on other 
 dh\.-." Id. ib. N. 32, 33. [Synopsis, pp. 52, 53. 
 
 "Merchandising, and the selling of goods at auction on the Sundays, is,OE ac- 
 count of its being the general custom, altogether lawful." "Buy ing and selling 
 goods on the Lord's day and on festival days, are certainly forbidden by the canon- 
 ical law but \vhere the contrary custom prevails, it is excusable." Id. ib. N. 293. 
 ^Synopsis, p. 192. 
 
 " He who perjorms any servile 
 
 work on the Lord's day. or on a festival day, let him do penance three days on 
 bread and water. If any one break the fasts prescribed by the church, let him 
 io penance on bread and water twenty day*." [Synopsis, p. 115. 
 
 R 13
 
 194 DEBATE ON THB 
 
 " The pope has the ri^ht and thepoioer to decree, that tfie sanctiftcah'an oftnt 
 LORD'S DAY, shall only continue a few hours, and that servile works may bt 
 done on THAT DAY." Id. ib. [Synopsis, p. 188. 
 
 Cnstom, indeed, is fast becoming-, as St. Lig-ori teaches, an excuse 
 for any thing. The traditions of fathers, the canons of councils, the 
 decrees of popes all wear away by the attrition of custom. Hence, in 
 a Roman Catholic population, pure and unmixed, there is a degree of 
 grossness of immorality, that Romanists themselves could not endure 
 in Protestant countries. Even the morals of New Orleans could not 
 be endured in Cincinnati. There, it is custom to go to mass in the 
 morning, to muster at noon, and to go to the theatre in the evening on 
 the Lord's day. This is indeed, the custom, 01 something very like 
 it, in all Roman Catholic countries. 
 
 On stealing, in general the easuist directs as foHows : 
 
 "In respect to the seventh commun iintnt," savs the saint, 
 
 "let the confessor ask the penitent if he has stolen any thing? ahd from whom, 
 whether it was from one person, or from different persons? whether he was alone, 
 or with others, and whether it was once or ottenrer? Because, if at each time 
 he stole a considerable amount, at each time he siniMii mortally. But on the 
 rontrary T if at each tune he stole a smalt amount, then he did not sio grievously, 
 unless the articles stolen came to a considerable amount; provided, however, that 
 in the beginning, he had not the intention of s4f aling to a large amount; but 
 when the amount already stolen has become considerable, although he did not 
 sin grievously, yet he is bound under-a grievous sin, to restitution; at least, as to 
 the last portions that he stole by which the amount btcatue considerable. It 19 
 to be observed, however, that a larger sum is required to constitute a heavy 
 amount in smalt theft*, and more is required if the things are stolen from differ- 
 ent persons, than if they were stolen from the same person; hence, it is safd,that 
 n smalt thefts, which are made at different times, double the sum is required to 
 constitute what is to be considered a large amount. And if a considerable time 
 intervene between the thefts, for instance, two months then the theft probably 
 does not amount to a grievous sin." Id. ib. N. 42. 
 
 On stealing to pay masses : 
 
 "If the person is nnknownV' continues the 
 
 'saint, "from whom another has stolen, the penitent is obliged to restitution, 
 either by having masses said, or by bestowing alms on the poor, or by making 
 presents for pious places," by which the saint means churches, nunneries, &c. ; 
 "and if the person himself is poor, he can retain the amonut stolen for the use 
 of his family. But. if the person on whom the theft has been committed, ia 
 known, to him the restitution is to be made; wherefore, it is wonderful, indeed, 
 that there are to be found so many confessors so ignorant, that, although they 
 know who the creditor is, enjoin upon the penftent, that, of the stolen goods, 
 which they ought to restore, they bestow alms, or have masses, said. It is to be 
 observed, that if any one takes the property of another, or retains it, under the 
 presumption, that if he were to ask it of the owiier, he would willingly give it to 
 him, he ought not to be obliged to make restitution." Id. ib. N. 44. 
 
 Thus we see theft can be made available to the behoof of priests in 
 saying masses what they ought to say, and by the old canons, are 
 bound to say gratis. 
 
 On lying. There is a way of making lying no lying : 
 
 " Relatively to the ninth commandment, of popery the 
 
 eighth, the saint proceeds as follows: "In regard to the reparation of the char- 
 acter of a person, if the fault of which he has been accused, is false, he who 
 defames him is bound to retract. But if the fault fs true, the defamation that is 
 given. ought to be looked upon in the most favorable light that it can be without 
 lying: let the penitent say, for example, [by way of excuse,] " I was deceived, 
 I erred." Others also admit that he can equivocate, by saying./ lied, since every 
 sin is a lie, as the scripture says. Again, by an equivocation, he may say ' 1 only 
 made this up in my head,' since all words which proceed from the mird may b 
 *aid to come from the head ; since tii bead is taken for the mind." Id ib. N. 4& 
 [Synopsis, p. 56.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 195 
 
 The difference between insulting or dishonoring one's parents and 
 a spiritual father, bishop or pastor: 
 
 * He who curses his parents, let him do penance, on bread and water, forty 
 days. He who insults his parents, three years. If any one rebel against his 
 bishop, pastor, and lather, let him do penance in a monastery, during his whole 
 life." [Synopsis', p. 116. 
 
 Rules given to confessors : 
 
 "The saint continues: "The confessor 
 
 ought to be extremely cautious how he hears the confession of women, and he 
 should particularly bear in mind what is said in the holy congregation of bishops, 
 21, Jan. 1610. "Confessors should not, without necessity, hear the conft-ssioni 
 of women after dusk, or before twilight." In regard to the prudence of a con- 
 lessor, he ought, in general, rather to be rigid witn young women in the confes- 
 sional than bland ; neither ought he to allow them to come to him before confes- 
 sion to converse with him; much less should he allow them to kiss his hands. It 
 is also imprudent for the confessor to let his eyes wander after his female peni- 
 tents, and to gaze upon them as they are retiring from confession. The confes- 
 sor should never receive presents from his female penitents; and he should be 
 particularly careful not to visit them at their houses, except in case of severe ill- 
 ness ; nor should lie visit them then, unless he be sent for. In this case ho should 
 be very cautious in what manner he hears their confessions; therefore the door 
 should be left open, and he should sit in a place where he caj be seen by others, 
 and he should never fix his eyes upon the face of his penitent; especially if they 
 be spiritual persons, in regard to whom, the danger of attraction is greater. The 
 venerable father Sertorius Capotus says,that the devil, in order to unite spiritu- 
 al persons together, always makes use of the pretext of virtue, that, being mu- 
 tually affected by these virtues, the passion may pass from their virtaes over to 
 their persons. Hence, says St. Augustin, according to St. Thomas, confessors, 
 in hearing the confessions of spiritual women, ought to be brief and rigid ; neither 
 are they the less to be guarded against on account of their being holy; for the 
 more holy they are, the more they attract." And he adds, "that such persons 
 are not aware that the devil does not, at first, lance his poisoned arrows, but 
 those only which touch but lightly and thereby increase the affection. Hence il 
 happens, that such persons do no^onduct themselves as they did at first, like' 
 angels, but as if they were clothed with flesh. But, on the contrary, they mutu- 
 ally eye one another, and their minds are captivated with the soft aud tender ex 
 pressions which pass between them, aud which still seem to them to proceed from 
 the first fervors of their devotion: hence they soon begin to long for each other's 
 company; and thus, he concludes, ' the spiritual devotion is converted into car 
 nal. And, indeed, O, how many priests, who before were innocent, have, on ac- 
 cciint of these attractions, which began in the spirit, lost both God and their 
 soul!'" Id. ib. N. 119. 
 
 The saint proceeds: "Moreover, the confessor ought not to be so fond of 
 hearing the confessions of women, as to be induced thereby to refuse to hear the 
 confessions of men. O, how wretched it is to see so many confessors, who spend 
 the greater part of the day in hearing the confessions of certain religious wom- 
 en, who are called Bitocai," (a kind of secular nuns,) " and when they after- 
 wards see men or married women coming to confession to them, overwhelmed 
 in the cares and troubles of life, and who can hardly spare time to leave their 
 homes, or business, how wretched it is to see these confessors dismiss them, say- 
 
 120. [Synopsis, p. 78. 
 
 The Romanist rule of faith both in word and deed places the Virgin 
 Mary ahove Christ, in the religious homage of the chuich. 
 
 "Nuns," says the saint, "ought to 
 
 have a special devotion towards St. Joseph, towards tfteir guardian angel, and 
 their tutelary saint, and principally towards St. Michael, the universal patron of 
 all the faithful, uut above all towards the most holy Virgin Mary, who is called by 
 the church our life and our hope; for it is morally impossible for a soul to advance 
 much in perfection, without a particular and a certain tender devotion towards 
 the most holy mother of God." Id. ib. N. 171.
 
 196 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 " Our life and our hope!" These words are in Protestant faith and 
 Bible propriety due to the Lord alone. We cannot have two lives t and 
 two hopes ; and if Mary is our life and hope, the Lord Jesus is not 
 I before alluded to this person under the Roman name of a being call 
 ed " the mother of God ;" which my opponent, as his manner is, served 
 up rhetorically, as if to produce a sympathy in favor of the superstitious 
 veneration of his party. He had not, however, a Roman Catholic 
 audience. I meant no disrespect to any person. I know that the more 
 intelligent Romanists discard the phrase as too gross and unauthorized. 
 There is no being in the universe, say they, who ought to be called 
 the mother of God. 1 had in my eye at the moment some wretched de- 
 signs in some Roman churches, a scandal to any Christian people : a 
 sort of family group, in which there is the picture of a venerable old 
 man, said to represent the Father of the universe next an old woman, 
 the image of the Virgin Mary, and between them the picture of the 
 " holy child, Jesus." It has disgusted the more intelligent Romanists. 
 This family of divinities is much more in the style of the Pantheon, or 
 the poetry of Hesiod, than in the spirit, or letter, or taste of Christianity. 
 
 While on this>subject we shall hear the moral theology of the church 
 on the use of images ; and, first, of the use of the virgin Mary's image 
 
 " Ltt him, who is in the habit of blaspheming, be advised to make the sign ol 
 the cross [fj ten or fifteen times a day, upon the ground with his tongue: and 
 thrice every morning, to say to the most blessed Virgin: ' O, my Lordess! give 
 me patience.' " Id. ib. N. 16. Synopsis, pp. 44, 45. 
 
 " Dailv to visit the most holy sacrament, and the image of tb,e most holy Mary, 
 to beg o? them the grace of perseverance." Id. ib. N. 14. 
 
 " O my Lordess, give me patience !" Is not this idolatry ? To beg 
 of the image of the virgin the grace of perseverance ! ! ! No wonder 
 that these folks find it expedient to expunge the second commandment, 
 which says, "Thou shalt not worship an image." no, "Thou shall 
 not bow down to it." But we shall hear the directions given concern- 
 ing the divine mother: 
 
 " The saint now proceeds to give instruction to the pa- 
 rish priest how to lead his flock in the way of " salvation." " Let him be watch- 
 ful," says he, " to render his flock studious in their devotion towards the Virgin 
 Mary, by declaring to them how merciful this DIVINE MOTHER is in succor- 
 ing those who are devout to her." Id. c. x. N. 216. " Therefore," continues 
 the saint, " let him intimate to them, that they daily recite, in common with their 
 families, five decades of the Rosary ; that they fast upon Saturday, and celebrate 
 Novenas upon the festivals of our Lordess (nostrae Dominae.) Lastly, and above 
 all, let the parish priest intimate to his flock, that they become accustomed often 
 to commend themselves to God, begging of him holy perseverance through the 
 merits of Jesus Christ and of Mary." Id. ib. 
 
 " A certain image of tne 
 
 Redetmer," so says the saint, "once upon a certain occasion, spoke to the ven- 
 erable brother Bernard of Corlion, who begged of the image to let him know 
 whether it wished him to learn to read? and the crucifix answered, ' What wil 
 it avail thee to learn.to read? What are books to thee? I am thy book, this is 
 enough for thee." Id. ib. N. 220. 
 
 "Now, that this is the very kind of reading that papists, or at least, those - *ho 
 wish to be saints, are addicted to, let us turn to the great Bernard, and hear 
 what he says on tne subject of such books. This saint, speaking of the Romish 
 churches, exclaims, " There is so great, and such an astonishing variety of dif- 
 ferent figures (images) presented on all sides, to the view, that the people prefer 
 reading upon the marble stones, than reading in books, and t> spend the whole 
 day in wondering at these things, rather than in meditating upon the Law of 
 God." Bernard, Apol. p. 992. The same saint says, "The bishop!- excite the 
 devotion of a carnal minded people by corporal ornaments, because they cannot 
 do it by spiritual." Id. ib. The gaint does not mean that their devotion is ex-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 197 
 
 rited by such shows, for just before, he said, that these carnal minded people 
 preferred spending the whole day in wondering at these thing?, rather than 
 to be meditating on the law of God." He could have meant nothing else there- 
 fore, than that these splendid images were placed in the churches under the 
 PRETENCE of exciting dovotiou, while the real object was, that the " foolish 
 people." (as he calls them,) "might BESTOW A GIFT." Id. ib. "O Crux ave, 
 spes unica!" " Hail, O Cross, our only hope!" as exclaims the Romish church 
 .in her "BREVIARY." 
 
 Besides the little images of 
 
 Christ crucified, and of the Blessed Virgin," continues the saint, "which the 
 
 {>riest ought to be careful to place near the sick person, if it can be done, let 
 lim also place before his eyes large images of the Mother of God, and the Re- 
 deemer, that the sick man, turn which way he will, may see them and commend 
 
 So much for this lesson on the morality of the Romanist rule of 
 faith. On these matters we have not time to comment. For those 
 who think they need a comment, my worthy friend knows how to 
 manage the cause admirably ! His talents suit this exigency. He is 
 fluent in all the dogmas of Catholicism. To these he has devoted 
 many years and is a good judge of a certain class of human nature. 
 He knows the power of a laugh an anecdote a sigh a compliment 
 a picture and, above all, he knows how much it weighs, with one 
 class, to say, with a triumphant air, " There's logic for you !" " what 
 an argument is that !" "I have proved it now !" " this is sound logic !" 
 "my friend Mr. C. feels it it is the badness of bis cause my cause 
 is so good, so ancient, so venerable, so holy, so catholic!" &c. &c. I 
 say, in this sort of rhetoric, my learned opponent is an adept. It has 
 only one fault, it is too luscious sometimes, and he lays it on rather 
 thick, to stick long upon the audience. He is performing his part 
 nobly ! For myself, I regard all this as a grave, serious, scriptural and 
 rational discussion; I expect the good feelings of my audience, of 
 which I am already conscious, only by addressing myself to their un- 
 derstanding, and in the cool argumentative dignity of reason, fact, and 
 argument. But really, no man, in my knowledge, could sustain the 
 Romanist cause better than my learned and ingenious respondent; and 
 if he fails, Roman Catholicism in the West need not look for an able' 
 defendant. \ 
 
 My friend has admitted the seven methods of electing popes, but 
 says it is no matter how they are chosen. Americans! How would you 
 relish such doctrine in respect to your governors, judges, and presi- 
 dents 1 If some city or county in this state should elect a governor 
 for the whole state, would it make no difference to you ? Should your 
 chief magistrate be elected by a mob, by a party, or by force, or brib- 
 ery, would you say it matters not the virtue is in the office, no matte? 
 how the incumbent has come into it? ! 
 
 The " Palladium" and " Baptist Banner" prove as much against 
 Protestantism, and for Catholicism, as they deal in ribaldry and per- 
 sonal abuse. If these are arguments on which the bishop relies, they 
 may be goDd authority for him; but, for myself, I need no such logic, 
 and my cause disdains such auxiliaries. He has great use for Unita- 
 rians also, and sometimes for Universalists, and even Quakers ; but 
 in his last argument he has mistaken the point. These all appeal, in 
 their controversies, to the bible alone, just as the Jansenists and Jesu- 
 its, tlif Dominicans, Bsrnardites, Benedictines, Franciscans, &c. &c. 
 whil'.- they have disliked and opposed one another, all acknowledge the 
 po)/e as supreme head of the church, the judge of controversies. 
 a a
 
 198 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 I am glad that he hasal last admitted that the Jansenists in all essen 
 tials are Catholics, and that they are repudiated only for a difference 
 of opinion. But where now are his objections against Du Pin 1 He 
 objected to him that he was a Jansenist, as if a difference in opinion 
 destroys the credibility of a witness a principle that forever roots up 
 all history; for no one upon this principle is authentic, unless he be a 
 Roman Catholic ; nor then, unless a Jesuit, and this is equivalent to 
 saying, that no one is authentic unless he bear witness for him. [Time 
 expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 BISHOP PTIRCELI, rises 
 
 I shall begin where my friend left off. I am charged -with appeal- 
 ing to the feeling, and not to the reason of my hearers : " my rhetoric 
 is too luscious ; I lay it on too thick ; it won't stick," &c. &c. Well ! 
 if my rhetoric is too luscious, that of my friend is too insipid ; if 
 mine is too thick, his is too thin. The fallacy it would cover, grins 
 through the flimsy gossamer : the weakest eyes can see it beneath 
 the veil. But I trust, I need not offer any vindication of my argu- 
 ments to this assembly. They are able, and, I thank God, willing, 
 too, to judge for themselves. They see that all, or the main force of 
 my friend consists of two renegade priests, Smith and Du Pin. 
 These are the two pillars of his logic. The published volume will 
 shew how superior and how honest are mine. In the oral debate, I ad- 
 dress the judgment, without neglecting the heart: and if I did pre- 
 sent my argument chiefly to the former, it would be because of an 
 observation of the celebrated John Randolph, in the Virginia conven- 
 tion for altering the constitution of the state. Speaking of my learn- 
 ed opponent, who was a delegate to that convention, Randolph said, 
 " He had politics in his heart and religion in his head." I cannot 
 vouch for the authenticity of the anecdote, I have just heard it. I hope 
 it was not founded in fact [Mr. C. explained Mr. Randolph had 
 never said so to him.] I proceed to more important matters. I did 
 not pretend to say that an informal election had any force. But that 
 any form on which the entire church agreed, according to the majority 
 principle governing our own elections, was valid. It was Christ who 
 drafted the constitution of our church. I do not much like to see any 
 comparison instituted between it and the works of human legislators. 
 But if closely examined, it will be found to contain the excellencies, 
 while it excludes the defects of the most popular forms of civil go- 
 vernment. We have a perfect feature of the Republican Model, in 
 this, that with us, merit is the grand criterion of fitness for office. No 
 favoritism is allowed. No matter how humble the parentage or ob- 
 scure the kindred of the individual, virtue, talent and common sense 
 are sure, sooner, or later, to elevate him to any situation he may be 
 ad vised, to accept. The church often selects her chief officers, as 
 God did David, " from the flocks of sheep," Ps. 7. viii. 70. from the 
 humblest walks of life. It is to this system, of giving merit a fair 
 field, that we are indebted for the brightest ornaments in civil so- 
 ciety, a Curran, chosen for his intelligent blue eye, his wit and 
 archness, from among his playmates, when " they that won, laughed, 
 atid they that lost cheated ,-" as is very often the case. 
 
 To finish the conversion of the Jew, where I discontinued my ar- 
 gument, at half past eleven, on different principles. He knew there
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. - 199 
 
 was a synagogue which the people were bound to consult, by the ex- 
 press command of God, and that it was no servility, it was blasphemy 
 against God and often visited with the he'aviest penalties, even in this 
 life, to oppose its authority, or to contradict its teaching. He is 
 therefore prepared to hear of authority in religion in fact, the syna- 
 gogue was a type of the church, its introduction as the CHURCH is 
 the fulfilment and the consummation of the teaching and testimony 
 of the LAW. The Jew having had reason to question the truth of his 
 religion, for which, he remembers he had often read, a better was to 
 be substituted, and aware that the time marked so distinctly by the 
 prophets for the coming of the Messiah, has long ago past, he looks 
 for any religious society, that can illustrate the splendid prophecies of 
 Isaiah, respecting the catholicity, or universal diffusion and the dura- 
 tion of the church, from the time of the CRUCIFIED ONE. He has only 
 to open his eyes to see that the Catholic church extends the dominion 
 of Christ, the limits of his spiritual kingdom from sea, to sea. Then 
 he looks at the other denominations. He finds none of the qualities of 
 such a kingdom, ih them- They are not Catholic, they are not old, 
 they are not unifoAti. They are the contrary of all this. This is enough 
 for him. He uses his reason, thus far, alone, because he is not yet 
 baptized. Like the wise men, he follows the light of that star, until 
 he reaches Jerusalem when its light fails him, there, as the star did 
 them, he asks, as they did, of authority, where the truth may be found, 
 and reason and revelation concur to shew it to him in the church. 
 He consigns himself to its guidance, he becomes a Catholic and 
 reason tells him, every day, he has done right. He lives and he dies 
 without a doubt of the soundness of his decision, for this blessed 
 security is the distinctive character of the Catholic. All other creeds 
 based on the essential maxim of their fallibility, leave the human 
 mind, in life and death, a prey to the most torturing anxiety. But I 
 have not done with this very instructive incident in the discussion. 
 If the Jew witnesses an occasional scandal in the church, he calls to 
 mind how Adam fell in Eden, and Aaron fell, at the foot of the smok- 
 ing Sinai, and Heli and his Sons, the priests, fell in Silo, and that 
 Christ said not, reject a religion, whose ministers have, personally, 
 transgressed, but on the contrary, that he said: " Upon the chair of 
 Muses have sitten the Scribes and the Pharisees. Jill things therefore, 
 whatsoever they shall say to you, observe ye and do ye : but according to 
 heit works, do ye not, for they say and do not. Thus truth is not 
 ibandoned ; if the bad liver meets his merited doom. 
 
 I now come to all that farrago of the Renegade Smith's translation 
 rf Liguori. My friend says the Catholic rule is immoral. He ap- 
 proached this topic with so much reluctance, and with so many strug- 
 gles, that, conscious of his having nothing true to produce agains 
 Catholic morality, I was going to say to him, "SPEAK OUT." But I didn't, 
 and now he has said all. Well, what does it amount to? Why to 
 this, that the Catholic church js blackened, but beautiful (Nigra sum, 
 sed formosa, as the spouse says in the canticle). She is, though 
 misrepresented, fair, though slandered, pure. If a Catholic were 
 always what his church teaches, and the sacraments she is appointed 
 by Christ to minister, give him grace, to be, he would be an orna- 
 ment to human nature, as well as to his faith. But "the Catholic 
 rule is immoral and dispenses with the law of God." No; it enfor- 
 ces dreadful penalties here and eternal torments hereafter, for a viola-
 
 200 
 
 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 lion of the law. If her ministers make any mitigation of her strict 
 code of morals in consequence of the arduous duties, weak health, 
 or other circumstances of her children, she teaches them, that if the 
 alleged motives of such mitigation do not, indeed, exist, it is not 
 " a faithful dispensation, but a cruel dissipation" of the heavenly or- 
 dinances ; that the priest has no power but what he derives from God, 
 and that God will iniallibly inflict all the rigors of his vengeance for 
 its abuse, as well on the priest, as on the people. If all the priests 
 and bishops in the world were to pronounce the words of absolution 
 over a sinner, in whose heart GOD did not see true sorrow for his fault, 
 with a sincere resolution to sin no more, the absolution would be null 
 and void, and the horrid crime of sacrilege superadded to the previous 
 guilt of the transgressor. The hope of the hypocrite shall perish, 
 says the scripture. We have a maxim, which must make the pope 
 and bishops and priests, as well as the laity tremble, when we 
 approach the dread tribunal of penance. It is this : " a good confes- 
 sion is the key of Heaven, a bad one is the key of Hell." How ad- 
 mirable are the lessons read today from Liguori and they were faith- 
 fully rendered for a sinister motive and how welf does the Catholic 
 church describe the perils and the obligations of their sacred office to 
 her ministers ! Hence it is that we assume our religious robes and hear 
 confessions in the open church, where are also our confessionals, 
 under the eyes .of all. If Liguori were the immoral man that Smith 
 would make him, would he have given such lessons to the clergy 
 and pointed out so impressively the dangerous consequences of a single 
 indiscretion, or' the slightest familiarity on the occasions to which he 
 was adverting '? "I made a covenant with my eyes, says Job, xxxi. 1 
 that I would not so much as think of a virgin ; for what part should 
 God from above have in me, and what inheritance the Almighty from 
 on high ?" Liguori says : " He that does .any servile work pn the 
 Lord's day, let him do penance, three days, on bread and water." To 
 what does my friend object in this, on the score of immorality 1 Is 
 it the enforcing of the observance of the sabbath ? Surely that is not 
 immoral. Is it to the severity of the penalty ? But did not God ordain 
 the pain of death against the man who gathered a few sticks on the 
 sabbath? Liguori allows work on the sabbath, on certain occasions. 
 So do we. Doctors work on the sabbath, without sin. So do printers, 
 though I think not always, especially when they publish pious lies 
 against the Catholics. " Which of you, says Christ, whose ox, or his 
 ass, falls into a pit, will not quickly draw him out, on the sabbath. 
 If a house is on fire on the sabbath, will not the Presbyterian bell 
 ring and the citizens haul out the hose and engines'? Will we- not 
 ave the harvest, on a Sunday ? New Orleans' profanity on the sab- 
 ath ! Why, they are not all Catholics, many of them are infidels and 
 Protestants, who there break the sabbath and their sin, though bad 
 enough, is not so bad as theirs, who, as it has been done elsewhere, 
 meet in gangs for forgeries and other such frauds, on the sabbath. 
 " Custom is fast becoming an excuse for every thing." No where does 
 'iri say this. I call for the original. Let Mr. C. produce his 
 proof, if he can. If he cannot, what will this community think of him ? 
 " The Romanist rule of faith places the Virgin Mary above Christ." 
 It does no such a thing. It says " cursed be every Goddess worship- 
 er," while it renders " honor to whom honor.' 1 '' We know and pro- 
 fess that the mother has no power but what she derives from the Son
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 201 
 
 To Him, we say : " have mercy on us ;" to her " pray for us." Mr. 
 C. says, " No being in the universe should be called mother of Gorf." 
 Was not Christ God? And does not the gospel call Mary, his mo- 
 ther ? Did not one hundred and fifty eight bishops so call her, in the 
 year 431, in the council of Ephesus? Who is the intelligent Catho- 
 lic, as my opponent states, who is ashamed of what the gospel and 
 the church sanction 1 I ask who is he ? Let us have his name. 
 The streets of Ephesus rung with loud applause when the decision of 
 the council was announced, vindicating tire name and dignity of the 
 mother of God, and the words M*/>/* erc*oc were echoed from mouth to 
 mouth, mingled with the most joyful and exulting cries of the populace, 
 to the consternation of Nestorianism. 'Son! behold thy mother!' were a- 
 mong the last words spoken by the expiring Savior on the cross. Will my 
 opponent call them ill timed at that hour, when all was consummated ! 
 
 "The Catholic rule makes a distinction between mortal and venial 
 sins." And why should it not 1 Does not the bible, which propor- 
 tions the penalty to the offence, does not the civil law, which punish- 
 es not every offence alike, does not common sense point out the dis- 
 tinction? Is it as great a sin for a child to tell a little, white lie to 
 excuse itself, as for a son to whet the razor and cut his father's throat ? 
 I am sensible that a lie is never innocent. Nor do I excuse it under 
 any circumstances but it is of various shades of guilt, according to 
 the circumstances when it is uttered. I know of national legislatures 
 which give a bribe of forty pounds per annum to an apostate priest, to 
 tempt him by filthy lucre to act against his conscience and which 
 not so many years ago, encouraged a son to turn Protestant, by em- 
 powering him to take his father's estate and turn both his aged pa- 
 rents and with them his brothers and sisters, if they persisted in be- 
 ing Catholics, out of doors, and it would be easy for me to prove that 
 this law was passed by many Protestant ministers, and that it was not 
 over scrupulous in point of morality in papistical distinction between 
 mortal and venial sins ; but let us have more of Smith's translation of 
 Liguori, he says ' let stolen money be paid for masses 1 No ; he says 
 first, let the rightful owner be hunted out by the penitent thief, and 
 to him let the restitution be made. If he can be no longer found, let 
 the money be given for masses, for his spiritual benefit, or distributed, 
 for his sake, in alms to the poor, and what better use could be made 
 of it what better counsel given 1 
 
 Another proof of Catholic immorality is that we are bound to go 
 once a year to confession ! Where the immorality of this is, I cannot 
 conceive. Is it not good to be obliged to examine, at least, once a 
 year, if not more frequently, the state of our consciences and to con- 
 fess ourselves sinners ? Is not this an admirable institution for the 
 acquiring of the best kind of knowledge, the knowledge of oneself? 
 Is it not worthy of God ? Is it not God himself that instituted it ? 
 Did he not leave to his church, the power of binding and loosing from 
 sin, when he said to his apostles, after having mysteriously breathed 
 upon them and given them the Holy Ghost, " Whose sins you shall 
 forgive, they are forgiven, and whose sins you shall retain, they are 
 retained : Whatever you shall bind on earth, it shall be bound in 
 Heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed in 
 Hc-.iven." John xx. 22, 23. And my friend quoted St. Thomas 
 Aquin, and St. Augustin, as well as Liguori, for the holy rules the 
 priest must observe, in hearing confessions. That establishes the ira 
 
 26
 
 202 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 portant fact, that in the last century, and in the fourteenth, and as far 
 back as the fifth age, the practice of confession existed, as it does at 
 the present day. In every age from the time of Christ it has been 
 practised, and experience has proved it the most effectual restraint 
 that religion has ever imposed upon vice, on passion, and on human 
 frailty. Who can tell what crimes it has arrested 1 What virtue it has 
 preserved and purified 1 What restitutions, of reputation and of for- 
 tune it has caused to be made 1 How many sinners it has stopt in the 
 down-hill path to destruction? Voltaire and Chillingworth and a hun- 
 dred others, not Catholics, have pronounced the most splendid eulo- 
 gies on confession. These disinterested witnesses will furnish you 
 ample proof on this point. But my friend before he closed, uttered 
 one word, while he read from the catechism of the council of Trent 
 "fixing aprice, <^c." for the forgiveness of sin. Now in the name of 
 truth, in the name of this community, I ask him for the proof, for 1 
 pronounce it absolutely false. 
 
 MR. C. explained that he did not say it was done by the council of 
 Trent. 
 
 He says that we have exalted the confessional to an equality with 
 the throne of grace. Well might it be the footstool of that throne, 
 if its pure -principles were carried out. On the throne, or in the con- 
 fessional, it is the same God that pardons the penitent sinner. [Time 
 expired.] 
 
 Three o'clock,?. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 The gentleman challenged me this morning upon an important 
 point, viz. that Protestants cannot make an act of faith that is, be 
 perfectly certain in their belief of the holy scriptures, or of Jesus Christ. 
 I accept the challenge. It now only remains for him to appoint the 
 time when, and the place where, and I will meet him on that point 
 But that is not the question for to-day. Let him not think to take me 
 off, by raising incidental and foreign questions. They may remove 
 the ennui of the audience for a while ; but his time would have been 
 better spent in answering my allegations on the great question. 1 
 have heard not one answer, as yet, to the question, " What gives gen- 
 eral councils their infallibility ?" and various other points o'f great 
 moment to his cause : to which he had better attend, than to propose 
 new debates. I will remind him of another question which he had 
 better solve. ' How can a thousand fallibles make one infallible ? ' Do 
 they, by meeting together, become infallible ? or, by an ecclesiastic 
 combination, give out infallibility ? This would have been more in- 
 structive than much of what the gentleman has given us. He obser 
 ved at one time that the Jansenists were a Roman Catholic sect. But 
 again, he says, that they are not Roman Catholics at all ! To pre- 
 serve the union of the church, their plan is a very easy one. When 
 persons dissent, cut them off. While Jansenists agree with tho 
 majority of the church, call them good Catholics : when they dissenl 
 as they do in some very cardinal matters, call them heretics in the 
 bosom of the church : but not of it. But the gentleman's explana- 
 tion of the council of Trent will never satisfy Protestants. The coun- 
 cil of Trent at one session, had forty-eight bishops, forty-five of 
 whom were very ordinary men. They decided that the Apocrypha 
 and the Vulgate were authentic; that the Latin Vulgate is the true ami
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 203 
 
 only authentic copy, more authentic than the Greek original. These 
 matters had often been discussed before amongst Romanists; bat were 
 finally adjudicated by the council of Trent. The modern doctrine of 
 Catholics is, that a simple majority is infallible. " That the opin- 
 ions adopted by the majority of the bishops are for an infallible rule 
 of faith." So says the worthy bishop of Strasburg; but the proof is 
 another matter. Now the present doctrine is, that twenty-five bish- 
 ops, being the qpjority of forty-eight, are infallible. The opinion of a 
 majority of a council, then, is the essence of infallibility. Father 
 Paul, who writes the history of the council of Trent, a good Catholic, 
 truly ! says, ' beardless youths were sent to that council by the pope 
 to obtain majorities for his measures That the pope sent packed ju- 
 ries, who in every question were expected to support his measures.' 
 So provoked was the good Catholic with the aberrations of Trent, that 
 he solemnly asserts that the bishops of Trent were " a pack of incar- 
 nate demons." I think I quote his very words. He was complaining 
 that the pope had hired and sent off young men from every part of 
 the empire to vote as he pleased to dictate. So much for the infalli- 
 bility of (Ecumenical councils. 
 
 My friend has pronounced glowing encomiums upon the pure vir- 
 ginity of the Roman priesthood, and has extolled the purity of celib- 
 acy, as essential to perfect holiness. That these priests have not been 
 such immaculate purities, half the decrees of these very councils attest. 
 Half their legislation is about the specks and blemishes of this vir- 
 gin priesthood, as if they assembled for the purpose of hiding their 
 shame. The bishop quoted Rev. xiv. 4. and was not ashamed before 
 this audience to apply it to marriage. I blushed for our audience, 
 and could not but be shocked with the freedom of attack upon the or- 
 dinance of God. Marriage is the oldest and most venerable institu- 
 tion in the history of man. God himself instituted and celebrated it, 
 on the flowery banks of Eden in the state of primeval innocence and 
 bliss. It was then and there said : " It i not good for man to be alont." 
 I believe with Paul that marriage is honorable in all. And as for pu- 
 rity ; earth knows no purer, no holier state than that of holy wedlock. 
 And could I tell or dare I tell before this assembly, but half that I 
 have learned of that virgin state of which my friend has spoken with 
 such warmth ; he would be slow to learn who could not perceive, 
 that "forbidding to marry," one of Paul's attributes of the grand 
 apostacy, has been the fons et principium, the fountain of untold pol- 
 lutions in the hierarchy of Rome. In times of persecution, and of 
 great distress, it may, indeed, be prudent, as Paul advised on such oc- 
 casions, to refrain from marriage, and for some great and laudable 
 purpose, it may be convenient, to prefer a single state ; but that youth, 
 male or female, who for the sake of greater purity prefers celibacy, 
 has yet to learn the very first principles of both religion and morality ; 
 and is as far out of the tract of truth and reason, as he that would cut 
 off his own hands to prevent him from plunder. 
 
 It is essential, in my opinion, that the bishop be a married man. 
 Indeed, the Holy Spirit by Paul has decreed, that he should be the 
 husband of one wife. As my opponent is a bachelor, I ought, per- 
 haps to ask his pardon. Did he, indeed, possess all the other qual- 
 ifications, I should withhold my vote to his becoming a bishop so long 
 as he continued a "virgin." To preside over a Christian conu ; 
 tion, he sh mid have all a Christian's feelings and experience. He
 
 204 HEE^TB O3T THE 
 
 should know experimentally the domestic airections and relations. 
 He should study human nature in the bosom of his family. There is 
 a class of feelings, which no gentleman, of single life, can compre- 
 hend ; or in which he can sympathise : and these are essential to that 
 intimacy with all classes, sexes and duties, which his relations to the 
 church often impose on him. If he does not know how to rule, a sin- 
 gle family, and to enter into all its customs and feelings with practi- 
 cal skill, how can he take care of the church of God ? So argues 
 Paul : and so must I reason and judge. 
 
 Next to his remarks against marriage, as necessarily less pure than 
 celibacy ; I was sorry to hear the gentleman defending "white lies," 
 and " little sins." When I think of the nature cf sin, and the holy 
 and immutable laws of God, against whom it is committed, I see no 
 difference between one sin and another. There may be great and lit- 
 tle sins as to their temporal relations and consequences : but when HE 
 against whom every sin is committed, and that divine and holy law, 
 which is violated in the least offence, is considered ; we must say with 
 the apostle James, " He that offendeth in one point is guilty of all." 
 It may be the veriest peccadillo on earth : but in Heaven's account, 
 one sin would ruin a world, as it has done, for he that keeps the whole 
 law and yet offends in the least point, is guilty of all. He that said, 
 not a jot or tittle of his law shall fall to the ground He that magni- 
 fied his law and made it honorable, will suffer no person to add to 
 to substract from, to change or to violate a single point with impunity. 
 
 I wish the gentleman would come up to the point and defend his 
 Catholic rule, that I might fully deliver myself on this subject; but 1 
 have as yet given a very few instances of the impurities and immoral- 
 ities of his rule of faith. But from the specimen given, I would ask, 
 does it not teach the worship of creatures and the images of creatures 
 does it not countenance idolatry"? Does it not command the invo- 
 cation of the spirits of dead men and women ? Are not multi- 
 tudes of saints invoked, of whose abode in heaven there is no witness 
 on earth 1 Does it not pay religious homage to beings, who by nature 
 are not God? Does it not blaspheme the name of God, and his apos- 
 tles and prophets, who are in heaven 1 ? And, may I not add does it 
 not annul the laws of God, and by a system of unparalleled casuistry 
 set aside every moral obligation ] 
 
 The gentleman represented confession as a Christian duty. So it is ; 
 but not auricular confession; not confession to a priest. Leo I. opened the 
 flood-gates of impurity by ordering and substituting private confession 
 to a priest; for public confession before the whole congregation. The 
 .ast entrenchment against the rapid declensions of public morals in the 
 fifth century, was broken down by their dispensing with public for 
 secret confession. All sensible historians, or, rather, commentators 
 on historic facts, agree that there was no greater check to flagitious 
 offences than bringing the defaulter before the whole congregation ; and 
 this being commuted into auricular confession, inundated the church 
 with unparalleled impurities and immoralities. "Confess your faults 
 one to another," is not, whisper your faults into the ears of your priest ! 
 Why do not the priests, on this their proof, confess their faults to the 
 people ] confess to one another! But this authorizes no man, no woman, 
 to degrade themselves by falling upon their knees before an old or young 
 bachelor, and telling to him all their impure and sinful thoughts, words
 
 HOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 305 
 
 slid actions. And ought he then to say, as if the sin were committed 
 against him, ' I absolve thee ?" This is the climax of folly on the 
 part^of the penitent, and of impiety on the part of the priest ! 
 
 There is no ear but God's to which our errors and our faults ought 
 to be confessed. The secrets of all hearts are his ; and he has gra- 
 ciously assured us that he will hear the acknowledgment and peniten- 
 tial confessions of all who approach him through the one Mediator, la 
 there more condescension or mercy in a Roman priest than in God 1 
 No, my friends, there is no ear more ready to hear than his ; and he 
 only can forgive. To suppose the contrary, mistakes wholly the Chris- 
 tian institution, and argues consummate ignorance of God. It is wholly 
 incompatible with the genius of the religion, and repugnant to both the 
 law and gospel. And with what propriety, modesty, piety, males and 
 females, old and young, should mutter their sins and secrets into the 
 ears of any bachelor, priest, or confessor, as if his ears were a common 
 sewer or conduit to carry down to oblivion the impurities of mortals, 
 I cannot even conjecture, unless to give them power over the penitents. 
 I opine that I am yet in the pale of logic, though I am upon a very un- 
 pleasant theme. 
 
 The gentleman objects to some of my reasonings. He says that the 
 church has fixed no tariff of sins ! Does he wish me to tell the whole 
 story 1 Is not the principle clearly asserted in the penances already 
 read ? Why fix a penance of three days for violating the sabbath, and 
 twenty days for breaking a human fast? For insulting his parents he 
 must do penance, for three years; for rebelling against his bishop he 
 must do penance all his life ! He who kills a common man does 
 penance three years ; but he who kills a priest must do penance 
 twelve years ! 
 
 The gentleman says there is no possibility of effectual pardon from 
 a priest, unless contrition be sincere. A word from Ligori here : 
 
 " In order to receive the sacrament of penance rightly,. perfect contrition in 
 the penitent is not required, but it is sufficient if he have attrition." Id. ib. N. 
 440. The saint proves this in his exposition of the 4th chapter of the 14th ses- 
 sion of the council of Trent: Id. ib. [Synopsis, p. 105. 
 
 Will the gentleman explain what he means by attrition? I have, 
 perhaps, said enough on this topic to prepare the way for my speech 
 to-morrow morning on the "sea serpent!" But while on the whole 
 premises of the rule of faith, and the mutability, fallibility, and tariffs 
 of the Romanist sect, I beg to read, in the words of the most illustrious 
 of the champions of Protestantism The great Chillingworth: 
 
 " Know then, sir, that when I say the religion of Protestants is in prudence to 
 be preferred before yours; as on the one side I do not understand by your 
 religion the doctrine of Bellannine or Baronius, or any other private man 
 amongst you, nor the doctrine of (he Sorbonne or of the Jesuits, or of thfc Domi- 
 nicans, or of any o'her particular company among you; but that wherein you 
 all agree, or profess to agree, the doctrine of the council of 'Prenl: So accor- 
 dingly on the other side, by the religion of Protestants, I do not understand the 
 doctrine of Luther, or Calvin, or JHelanclhon, not the confession of Agiista. or 
 Geneva, noV the catechism of Heidelberg, nor the articles of the church of 
 England, no, nor the harmony of Protestant confessions; but that wherein they 
 all agree, and which they all subscribe with a greater harmony, as a perfect rule 
 of their faith and actions, that is the BlHLE. 
 
 " The BIHLE, I say the BIBLE only is the religion of Protestants, whatsoever 
 else they believe besides it: And the plain, irrefragable, and indubitable conse- 
 quences of it \v-Il may they hold as matter of opinion; but as matter of faith 
 and religion, n Cither can they with coherence to their own grounds believe it 
 themselves, nor require the belief of it of others without most hijjh and schis- 
 ts
 
 206 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 matica! presumption. I, for my part, after a long and (as I verily believe and 
 hope) impartial search of the true way to eternal happiness, do profess plainly 
 that I cannot find any rest for the sole of rny loot byt upon this rock only. 
 
 " I see plainly, and with mine own eyes, that there are popes against popes, 
 councils against councils, some fathers against others, the same lathers against 
 themselves, a consent of fathers of one age against a consent of fathers of another 
 ge, the church of one age against the church of another age: Traditive inter- 
 pretations of scripture are pretended, but there are few or none to be found : 
 No tradition but only of scripture can derive itself from the fountain, but may 
 be plainly proved to be brought in, in such an age after Christ, or that such an 
 age it was not in. In a word, there is no sufficient certainty but of scripture 
 only, for any considering man to build upon. This, therefore, and this only I 
 have reason to believe: This I will profess, according to this I will live, and for 
 this if there be occasion I will not only willingly, but even gladly, lose my life, 
 though I should be sorry that Christians should take it from me. 
 
 " Propose me any thing out of this book, and require whether I believe or no, 
 and seem it never so incomprehensible to human reason, I will subscribe it with 
 hand and heart, as knowing no demonstration can be stronger than this, " God hath 
 said so, therefore it Is true." In other things, I will take no man's liberty of judg- 
 ing from him; neither shall any man take mine from me. I will think no man 
 the worse mart, nor the worse Christian, I will love no man the less for differing 
 in opinion from me. And what measure I mete to others, I expect from them 
 again. I am fully assured that God does not, and therefore men ought not to 
 require any more of any man than this, to believe the scripture to be God's 
 word, to endeavor to find the true sense of it, and to live according to it." 
 TTime expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PTJRCELL rises 
 
 I am pursuing my opponent, to-day, though various assertions, and 
 vain endeavors to establish against the Catholic church, the charge of 
 immorality. I said, that the grace of penance was, in our estimation, 
 so powerful, that there is no sin which it may not efface by the mercy 
 of God. This, Mr. C. says, is a proof of our immorality ! If it be 
 immoral to lift a heart-broken penitent from the depths of despair, and 
 tell him there is hope in God, my friend is right. Catholics believe 
 that there is no sin which God cannot forgive to sorrowing man. One 
 drop of the infinitely precious blood which was shed for us on Calvary, 
 is more than sufficient to cancel the iniquities of a thousand worlds : 
 "If your sins be as scarlet, saith the Lord, they shall be made as 
 white as snow." (Is. i. 18.) " Come to me, all you that labor and 
 are burdened," says Christ, " and I will refresh you." (Matt. xi. 28.) 
 " But," we are told, "the scripture speaks of an irremissible sin, a sin 
 against the Holy Ghost." That sin, my friends, is indeed a deadly 
 one. That sin is, obstinately resisting the known truth, and final im- 
 penitence, the almost inevitable consequence of suffering ourselves to 
 be blinded by religious prejudice. This sin is more common than 
 many (alas ! too many) are willing to believe. They are in that way 
 of which the scripture says : " It scemeth to a man right , but the ends 
 thereof lend to death." (Prov. xvi. 28.) To such Christ solemnly de- 
 clares that " they shall call upon him, and he will not hear'; and ther, 
 shall die in their sin." Such persons as these, find it easier to accuse 
 our church of a few riots in Rome, or elsewhere, which all the power 
 of religion could not have prevented, (and the only wonder is that they 
 did not occur more frequently,) than to study her divine evidences, be- 
 lieve the mysterious truths she proposes, and practise the holy lessons 
 she enjoins. But I must hasten to answer the multitude of heteroge- 
 neous questions which my friend has proposed.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 207 
 
 ' What gives general councils their infallibility ?" The power and 
 omniscience of God : the Holy Ghost abiding with the church, all 
 days, until the consummation of the world. " Can a thousand falli- 
 bles make one infallible 1 ?" Yes; and, according to your own show 
 ing, every one of twelve fallibles made an infallible; for you allowed 
 that the twelve apostles were, individually, and of course, collectively, 
 infallible. And, if you need more homely illustrations, does it follow, 
 that because one thread cannot keep a seventy-four to her moorings, 
 that a cable consisting of a thousand strong threads cannot do so ? 
 What one cannot do, many can, humanly speaking: how much more 
 so when there is a divine promise : " Behold I am with you all days { 
 the gates of hell shall not prevail against yote?" (Mark xvi. 18.) I never 
 said the Jansenists were Roman Catholics. I objected to Du Pin from 
 the very commencement of this controversy, on the ground of his be- 
 ing^ a Jansenist. The Jansenists have been condemned by the popes. 
 Hence, they lose no opportunity of insulting them, exaggerating 
 their faults and suppressing their virtues. My friend, then, followed 
 a notoriously treacherous guide, when he trusted himself, and his 
 cargo of notions about the popes, to such a helmsman as Du Pin. But, 
 bad as the Jansenists are, they are too learned in church history and 
 in the scriptures, to become members of any Protestant sect. Their 
 magnificent work, The Perpetuity of the Catholic Faith, is, probably, 
 the most learned production recorded in the annals of religious contro- 
 versy. I should be happy to lend it to any gentleman of this assem- 
 bly, and thereby convince him how venerable are the doctrines, which 
 want of knowledge induces some persons to assail. The opinions of 
 all the bishops in the world, are no article of faith. Articles of faith 
 are defined, and they are no longer opinions. " Siquis dixerit ;" " If 
 any say :" in this manner commence the canons of doctrine to define 
 articles of faith ; and they end by the words, "Anathema sit ;" in imi- 
 tation of St. Paul, who said : " Were I, or an angel from heaven, to 
 preach to you any other gospel than what has been preached, let him 
 be anathema." This formula always marks the definitions of Catho- 
 lic faith, among the acts of general councils. But it will make even 
 the smatterers in theology, the sciolists, I could have almost said, the 
 school-boys of Europe, laugh, to see the gentleman gravely quote Fra 
 Paolo, or Father Paul, the sycophant of the senate of Venice, the ex- 
 communicated monk, or, to say all in two words, the " Caivinislic 
 heretic," as he is justly called by the Protestant bishop, Burnet, as 
 his authority for the proceedings of the bishops in the council of Trent. 
 " He hid," says Bossuet, "the spirit of Luther under the frock of a 
 monk." Henry IV. of France detected his hypocrisy, and denounced 
 him to the senate of Venice ; and Pallavicini convicted him of three 
 hundred and sixty errors in his pretended history of the council of 
 Trent. I have got Paolo Sarpis' book in English, and will prove on 
 him some, at least, of these errors, if he is quoted again, with his worthy 
 compeers, Smith and Du Pin! Now the truth is, that there were upwards 
 of two hundred and fifty bishops, or prelates, of different nations, 
 nearly two hundred of the most learned theologians, and the ambassa- 
 dors of many Catholic princes, at this council. It was held in Trent, a 
 frei> city, and the utmost liberty was allowed in the discussion of the dif- 
 ferent questions, previously to the definitions of faith. The council met 
 to decide anew, what had been always, every where, and by all believed,
 
 208 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 in the Catholic church ; and the canon of scripture which it defined, was 
 no other than what had been settled in all the previous councils for 
 upwards of a thousand years; and this the whole Catholic world per- 
 fectly understood. What, now, becomes of the gentleman's 48 by 25? 
 Why does he exaggerate in figures when he talks against Catholics, 
 and figure in-miniature when he speaks for them 1 Those beardless 
 youths he speaks of, had, I presume from Italian faces generally, as 
 mucli of that excrescence as other animals distinguished by a late 
 senator. My friend was quite tender to-day, indeed excessively elo- 
 quent, on the subject of marriage. Had he confined himself to its just 
 praise, as the primeval institution of God, on the flowery banks of 
 Eden, without outraging the express declarations of Christ, and the 
 inspiration of his Holy Spirit, in the new law, I would have repeated 
 what I have already said, in acknowledgment of the purity and sanc- 
 tity of the nuptial union. But, I must borrow his own words, to say, 
 with still more truth, that " I blushed for our audience, and *-as 
 shocked by the freedom of his attack upon the ordinance of God." 
 The gentleman may talk until the end of the year, and I would meet 
 him at every pause with the words of Christ, Matt. xix. 12; or, if 
 these are not plain enough to the " sensual man who thinketh this 
 virtue foolishness," with those of St. Paul, (1 Cor. vii.) "/ would 
 that all men were even as myself." " / say to the unmarried and the. 
 widows, it is good for them if they so continue, even as /." (ver. 8.) " He. 
 that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how hf. 
 may please his wife ; ajid he is divided. He that is without a wife, is 
 solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. 
 (verses 32, 33.) " Jlrl thou loosed from a wife, seek not a ivife . . . if 
 a virgin marry, she hath not sinned . nevertheless, such shall have tribu- 
 lation of the flesh. But I spare you." (ver. 28.) Can holy writ more 
 unequivocally reprobate all the gentleman's romancing about wedlock, 
 to the proscription of that pure devotedness to the holy offices of the 
 ministry, of which Jesus Christ, St. John, and St. Paul, have left us 
 the brightest examples in their own persons 1 Mr. C. said : " Dared 1 
 to tell, before this assembly, but half that 1 have learned of that virgin 
 priesthood :" and I, my friends, dared I tell, before this assembly, but 
 half that I have learned, from old Protestant residenters of this city, 
 of that married priesthood, in Elyria, on Lake Erie, and in towns in 
 the interior of this state, without casting the net over heads nearer 
 home, I would fill your souls with tenfold horror ! I would advise 
 my friend to tread lightly on these ashes. Holy as marriage is, and 
 holy as I confess it to be, St. Paul advises married people to forego, 
 at certain times, the privileges of that state, to give themseites to prayer. 
 (ver. 5.) The same is commanded in the prophet Joel. xi. 16. 
 The high-priest was forbidden, in Leviticus, to neglect the foregoing 
 injunctions, when he ministered unto the Lord ; as, also, to take a* 
 widow to wife, but only a virgin. Now a widow, according to my 
 friend's notion, would have a better title than a virgin to have a high- 
 priest for her husband, inasmuch as she had shown her reverence for 
 the insti^'ition of marriage, by a previous union. And, now. let me 
 ask again, why did my opponent labor so hard to give his Protestant 
 hearers, the Paulicians for their ancestors, when it is well known, 
 that these heretics condemned marriage? This, the Catholic church 
 lias not done. But, when a vow is made to God, she says, with St.
 
 ROMAJV CATHOLIC RELIGION. 209 
 
 Paul, (1 Tim. v. 12.) " it is damnable, in either man or woman, to 
 break it." Has my opponent read all these texts ? Does he not re- 
 member to have read in history, the honor in which the light of reason 
 taught all the nations of the earth to hold virginity, and the privileges 
 to which it was every where entitled ] Has he read of scandalous 
 damages recovered in courts, in England, by Reverends, who were 
 mocked to scorn the following Sunday, when they went into the pul- 
 pit to preach 1 Has he read of other reverends, who have had to pay 
 damages for the slanderous reports, put in circulation by their fair 
 companions in weal and woe 1 Is this the tribulation according to the 
 flesh, of which St. Paul speaks 1 " The decrees of councils attest that 
 priests have not been such immaculate purities." Well ; and what 
 do these records of the civil courts of England, and the domestic an- 
 nals of broken hearts and blighted honor, attest? As well might the 
 gentleman charge marriage vith the shocking excesses, which it did 
 not prevent in David and Solomon, as the law of celibacy with the 
 specks and blemishes of the Catholic priesthood. 
 
 In every religion there will be bad men, and by them every virtue 
 will be outraged, but must we on this account blame virtue and ex- 
 punge it ; must we, like Moses descending from Sinai, break the 
 tables of the law, because of a stiff-necked and a revolted people ; or, 
 on the contrary, hold up that law before them in terror, remind them 
 of their duty, and reclaim them, by exhibitions of divme justice and 
 mercy, to virtue 1 " It is essential for a bishop to be a married man." 
 And the gentleman's vote would be withheld from me, because I am 
 a bachelor. Why, sir, St. Paul does not mean that a bishop should be 
 a man of one wife, but that he should have had but one otherwise, aa 
 he was himself unmarried, he would have acted against his own rules. 
 Now I claim to be as clear-sighted, and as well read in the bible, as 
 my friend, and I maintain it is essential a bishop should not be a mar- 
 ried man; for he will not then be afraid to bring home from the bed of 
 death the small-pox, the cholera, or the plague, to his wife and chil- 
 dren ; he will not be prevented by the engrossing care of a family 
 from visiting the " widow and the orphan ;" he will have more money 
 to spare for the wants of the poor. "To preside over a Christian con- 
 gregation," says Mr. Campbell, " a bishop should know experimen- 
 tally the domestic affections and relations ; he should study human 
 nature in the bosom of his family ; there is a class of feelings which 
 no gentleman of single life can comprehend, or in which he can sym- 
 pathise, and these are essential to that intimacy (what intimacy !) with 
 all classes, sexes and duties, which his relations to the church often im- 
 pose upon him." W T hat does all this mean 1 I am sincerely shocked 
 at this freedom. But if it mean any thing that I should answer, it 
 would mean, that a bishop should be a bachelor to sympathise with a 
 numerous class of Christians, vix. old maids ; he should have a scold- 
 ing wife to be able to sympathise with a scolded husband ; a sickly 
 wife, an ugly wife, a drinking wife, an arbitrary wife, an ignorant, 
 stupid wife, to know experimentally what husbands suffer in all these 
 domestic relations ; he should, and he should not, have children. Can 
 there be any thing more superlatively ridiculous! As well might you 
 exact of the physician, that he should have had all the diseases you 
 may call upon him to cure. A bishop can study his own heart, and 
 as Cicero says, "Timeo hmiinem unius libri;" if he will not learn 
 s2 14
 
 210 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 human nature there, he will not learn it any where. I have much more 
 to say on this subject, which queen Elizabeth, Oxford college, (Eng- 
 land,) regulations to the " fellows," and Dr. Miller, of Princeton, 
 furnished me ; but whether I resume this unpleasant task or not, de- , 
 pends on my learned opponent. I have a large family to provide for, 
 and I try at least to take care of it. Fifty little orphans, in want of 
 an asylum, look to me for bread ! and as Christ and St. Paul have 
 taught me to live, while I have ears to hear, and a heart to commiser- 
 ate the hard lotofthe fatherless and motherless, and claims to present 
 in then name to a generous public, so, must I reason and judge, I should 
 continue to live. These little beneficiaries gather around me when I 
 visit them, and they call me by the endearing name of father ! and 
 their appealing looks, their grateful smiles, their wants and artless- 
 ness and joy excite in me emotions which a virtuous parent well 
 might share, and an unfeeling one, who neglects or abuses his chil- 
 dren, well might envy ! I invite my friend to visit these little inter- 
 esting orphans, and see how an old bachelor gets along among them. 
 
 Did I really defend white lies ] I think not. " One sin, in the 
 sight of heaven is as great as another." This I deny. This doctrino 
 saps the foundation of sound morals ; it leaves us no energy for virtu 
 ous effort ; it writes the mysterious " Mane, Tecel, Phares," on the 
 wall, for the first and least offence ; it has no warrant in scripture. God 
 often speaks of nations filling up the measure of their guilt, and what 
 could this mean, if one sin were as bad in divine estimation, and filled 
 up as much space as a thousand ? It is true, He punishes all sins, 
 but not alike ; therefore all are not equally heinous in his sight. Mr. C. 
 says, " I wish the gentleman would enable me to deliver myself," &c. 
 You may deliver yourself on any point you please, I have no objection. 
 
 His next attempt at proof of immorality, was the allegation that we 
 have destroyed the second commandment, rejecting the law against 
 making graven images, that we may worship creatures, and images 
 of creatures, and introduce idolatry ! the invocation of the spirits of 
 dead men and women, &c. &c. My friends, this charge of leaving 
 out the second commandment is very stale, and, no doubt, my Protes- 
 tant hearers will be astonished to see and hear for themselves that it 
 is utterly unfounded. Here is the Catholic catechism of this diocese : 
 it thus reads. 2. " Which is the first commandment 1 ?" Ans. " I am 
 the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, and out 
 of the house of bondage. Thou shall not hate strange gods before me. 
 Thou shall not make to thyself a graven thing, nor fhe likeness of any 
 thing, that is in the heavens above or the earth beneath, or in the wafers 
 under the earth . thou shalt not adore them nor serve them." The Douay 
 catechism is equally full, (holds it open,) so are all our bibles. I 
 will display this little catechism here, or I am willing to pitch it 
 among my audience for inspection. They will see that it contains 
 the commandment in full, and that there is nothing in it, in violation 
 of the law of God, on this, or on any other subject. It is an admirable 
 abridgment of faith and morals. If there have been any catechisms 
 published without the commandments in full, it is because they were* 
 published for the use of children, whose memories were not to be en- 
 cumbered by too long answers, when the sense and substance of the 
 precept could be sufficiently expressed in fewer words. As to the 
 division of the commandments, my friend knows that the bible was
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 211 
 
 not originally divided into chapters and verses as it is at present. 
 But with this question we are not now concerned. 
 
 It is not a crime to make an image, if we do not adore and worship 
 it instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever ; otherwise God would 
 have transgressed his own prohibition, for he commanded Moses to 
 make a graven image, namely, the image of a brazen serpent, and to 
 set it up before a people exceedingly prone to idolatry, that they may 
 look on it and be cured of the bites of the fiery serpents that stung them 
 for their murmurings in the wilderness. The divine lawgiver also 
 directed (Exodus xxv.) two images of Cherubim to be made, with 
 their wings overshadowing the mercy seat of the ark of the cov- 
 enant, towards which ihe people turned in prayer, and before which 
 Joshua and the ancients of Israel fell flat upon their faces until the 
 evening, at Hai, when they were defeated, for the sin of Achan, by the 
 men of that city; and Joshua said, "Alas, O Lord God," &c. vii. 7. 
 What was the temple of Solomon, built by the special directions of 
 that God who had forbidden the making of graven images to adore 
 and serve them, but a temple of images ? Never has any house, per- 
 haps, since or before, not excepting the celebrated picture galleries of 
 the Louvre, abounded more in pictures and likenesses of things in 
 heaven and things on earth, than did that venerable pile, and yet God 
 was not offended, but promised that his ears should be attentive to the 
 prayer of him that prayed in that place, as we read in the book of Kings. 
 The objection is unphilosophical, as well as unscriptural. \Yhat, I 
 ask, are the letters G. O. D. but pictures, representing a certain idea 1 ? 
 So written language, when first used, was a series of pictures, as every 
 scholar knows ; and the bible abounds, like the temple, with these pic- 
 torial signs. Again, where is the immorality of looking on the em- 
 blem of our dying Savior 1 Is it not the gospel narrative of his sorrows 
 and his love, condensed 1 The council of Trent, Sess. xxv. teaches, 
 what every Catholic knows, " that while we venerate the memorials 
 of Christ and his saints, we are not to believe that any divinity or 
 power resides in them." I would, therefore, express in a few words, 
 the motive of our respect for the crucifix, and our sense of its lifeless- 
 ness and want of power, in the following apostrophe : " Thou canst 
 not see, thou canst not hear, thou canst not help me, butthou remind- 
 est me of my God." 
 
 Were the objection of my worthy opponent rigorously urged, it 
 would be impiety for the orphan girl to wear around her neck the like- 
 ness of a fond, but alas ! prematurely deceased mother : or a soldier 
 boy the miniature of the father of his country. The different trades and 
 professions should be arraigned for the idolatrous practice of suspend- 
 ing before their doors the signs of their various occupations. The 
 United States' mint would be a factory of idols, and every money- 
 holder, in bank notes, or the hard metal, an idolater! Finally, if the 
 Catholics substitute the words " honor and veneration " for " wor- 
 ship," when speaking of the relative respect paid to the emblems of 
 Christ and his saints, yet even the use of this word could be defend- 
 ed from the Bible,Chron. last ch. where the people, as it reads in the 
 Protestant bible, worshiped the Lord and (he Kin%, but surely not with 
 the same kind of worship. The exterior act appeared the same, but 
 in the heart, there was distincHon of homage. If it be wrong and ai: 
 outrage to the mediation of Christ to seek inferior intercessors with 
 God, why did Paul ask the prayers of the Christians to whom he ad-
 
 212 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 dressed h.s epistles ? Why did God command the importunate friends 
 of Job to ask the just man's prayers for them 1 Why did he appoint 
 a priest to offer gifts and sacrifices for sin ? And why did the apos- 
 tles teach us to say, " I believe in the communion of saints." // was 
 strange, said king James, to the Scotch, bishops, to allow those honorable 
 places in the churches, to unicorns, lions, and devils, (griffins) ichich 
 were refused to prophets and apostles ! " Let them not had people by the 
 nose," says Dr. Herbert Thorndike, Prebendary of Westminster, " to be- 
 lieve they can prove their supposition that the pope is anti-christ, and the 
 papists idolaters, when they can not" Just Weights and Measures, 
 .11. " It is a shame to charge men with what they are not guilty 
 of, in order to make the breach wider, already .too wide." Dr. Mon- 
 tague, Prot. bishop of Norwich, Inv. of Saints, p. 60. 
 
 Another proof of immorality is the distinction between material and 
 formal sins ! This is a just distinction. The civil law recognizes it. 
 An injury done with malice aforethought, or formally, is very different, 
 as to the guilt of the agent, from accidental and unintentional injury. 
 A child, a maniac, a man in his sleep, or otherwise unconscious of 
 what he does, and not the culpable cause of that want of conscious- 
 ness, may inflict an injury, with impunity, for which liberty, and life 
 should, under different circumstances, be very justly forfeited. My 
 friend has brought up casuistry. The tendency of such punishments 
 is salutary : and if a severer penalty is inflicted for the murder of ? 
 priest, &c., it is to preserve the inviolability of religion, which watches 
 over the rights of parents, to the fear and" love of their children, and 
 of the law, to the obedience and respect of those for whose preserva- 
 tion and wellbeing it was enacted. My learned friend traduced the 
 clergy of the Catholic church and described the dangers of the con- 
 fessional. As well might he denounce the medical profession. He 
 read numerous extracts from publications of Smith, Slocum & Go's 
 joint-stock concern, for the defamation of innocence. He may sit 
 down, in the lowest places, with these worthy associates, if he will. I 
 shall not molest them in their calculations of the "pieces of silver." 
 " I will leave them alone in their glory." 
 
 The gentleman allows that auricular confession was the law of the 
 church in the fifth century. This is generous, and he is contradicted 
 in the concession, by some Protestants, who, for want of better knowl- 
 edge, give the institution a later date. It remounts, however, farther 
 up the chain of holy usages, viz. to the time of Christ, who gave 
 such power to men as that expressed in the text, St. John, xx. 22, 23. 
 This power was not to be exercised without a knowledge of the dis- 
 positions of the sinner, and this knowledge could only be obtained 
 from his own confession. Leo I. did not, therefore, ' open the 
 floodgates of impiety by substituting private for public confession." 
 The practice is of divine institution, and how horrid is it not, to speak 
 thus of what all ages and nations of Christianity, the Greek and the 
 Latin churches and the sects of the east, have ever held as the work 
 of Christ, taught by himself and every where preached by his apos- 
 tles ! Tertullian and Origen, who lived in the age next to the apos- 
 tles, hold the following language : " If you withdraw f rum confistion, 
 think of hellfire, which cunft ssion extinguishes." "Look carefully ttbout 
 thee in choosing the person to -whom you confess confess to him your most 
 ftecrct sins." " // is necessary," says St. Basil, in the 1th century, " to con- 
 fess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of the divine mysteries it
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 2 IS 
 
 committed." " Let no one," toys St. Augustine, " say to himself: I do 
 penance to God, in private.' Is it then in vain tiiat Christ has said, what- 
 soever you loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven ? Is it in vain that 
 the keys have been given to the church?" These texts abundantly 
 prove that auricular confession was practised before the time of Leo 1. 
 in the fifth century, and consequently that Christ and his apostles 
 must share the odium in which my opponent presumes to involve the 
 Catholic church. He says the practice of the public confession of sin, 
 before the whole congregation, was the last entrenchment against the 
 rapid declension of* morals in the fifth century. And yet with glaring 
 inconsistency, after contending for the practice so vehemently, in 
 almost the same breath, he tells us : "There is no ear but God's, to 
 which our errors or our faults ought to be confessed, for that the 
 secrets of all hearts are his." Can there be contradiction more palpa- 
 ble ? And does not the Catholic practice save the sinner's honor, gently 
 M-ithdraw him from the downward path to ruin, admonish him of his 
 ingratitude and restore him to religion and to society a better man, 
 in all probability to sin no more? " Is there more condescension or 
 mercy in a Roman prieSt," asks my opponent, " than in God ?" Why, 
 the blasphemous question might have been put to Christ by the leper, 
 when the Savior ordered him " to goshow himself to the priest." Matth. 
 viii. 4. " Is there more condescension, or mercy, in a Jewish priest than 
 in God?" 
 
 My friend quotes St. James, " confess your sins to one another :" 
 but he takes care to omit the antecedents and the consequents of the text. 
 " Is any man sick among you. Let him bring in the priests of the 
 church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name 
 of the Lord, and the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and if he be 
 in tins, they shall be forgiven him." James v. 14. Is not obedience 
 to the directions of the Holy Ghost, the calling in of the priests and 
 avniling himself of their ministry, the indispensable condition prescri- 
 bed by God himself, in the scripture, for the cure of the corporal mal- 
 adies, but, much more, of the SINS of the sick man ? Could my 
 friend have been more effectually refuted than he evidently is by 
 a text of his own selection ? [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 From the beginning I have said, and I repeated it yesterday, that 
 1 would not state any fact which I could not sustain. I do not care 
 how often I am put to the test. I have here three catechisms, in 
 which the second commandment is omitted, and to keep up the number 
 ten, they have made two out of the 10th. Here are two catechisms, 
 published by the authority of the Roman Catholic church. The title 
 of one, from the highest authority since the council of Trent, is as 
 follows : 
 
 " The most Rev. Dr. James Butler's catechism : revised, enlarged, approved, 
 and recommended by four Roman Catholic Archbishops of Ireland, as a general 
 i-ni for the kingdom. Suffer little children to come to me, and ferbid 
 them not, for of such is the kingdom of God. Mark x. 14. This is eterna life, 
 that th(-y misrht know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom tbou 
 hast sent. John, xviii. 3. Twelfth edition: carefully corrected and improved, 
 with amendments. Dublin: Printed bv Richard Corne, 4. Capel St. Bookseller 
 an;l Printer to the R. C. College of St. Patrick and Maynooth, and publisher to 
 the Catholic Bishops of Ireland. 1826." [See page 36.
 
 214 DEBATE OTf TH 
 
 Q. " Say the commandments of God. 
 
 A. 1. I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt have no strange gods before BJ. 
 
 2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. 
 
 9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. 
 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods. Exod. xx." 
 
 Are these the ten commandments of God, as all Roman Catholio 
 children are taught !! 
 
 The single fact that the four archbishops of Ireland, and the Rom- 
 an Catholic college of Maynooth should have impiously dared to 
 strike one commandment from the ten, which God wrote on two tables 
 with his own finger, and should have changed and divided the tenth 
 nto two, speaks volumes in proof of my allegata against the Romanist 
 rule of faith. But we shall hear another witness Title: 
 
 " The General Catechism revised, corrected and enlarged bv the Right Rev- 
 erend James Doyle D. D. Bp. &c. and prescribed by him to be taught through- 
 out the diocese of Kildaire and Lerghlin. [Motto the same as in the other, ster- 
 eotyped and printed at Dublin by the same printer, A. D. 1827.] See. p. 25. 
 
 Q. Say the ten commandments of God. 
 
 A. I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have any strange gods before me. 
 Thou shalt not make to thyself neither an idol or any figure to adore it. 
 
 2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thyGod in vain; for the Lord 
 will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain. 
 
 9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. 
 
 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods." 
 
 This merits the reprobation pronounced on the preceding. 
 
 Again : here is an American catechism. Yes, in this land ot 
 bibles has been published a catechism, in which the same liberty is 
 taken. Its title is : 
 
 " An abridgement of the Christian doctrine, with proofs of scripture 
 on points controverted, by way of question and answer : composed in 
 1649 by Rev. Henry Tuberville, D. D. of the English college of 
 Douay : Now approved and recommended for his diocese, by the right 
 Rev. Benedict bishop of Boston. This is the way, walk ye in it." 
 Isa. xxx. 21. New York; published by John Doyle; No. 12. Liber- 
 ty street, stereotyped by A.Chandler. 1833." See p. 54. 
 
 " Q. What is the secomi command inent ? 
 
 A. Thou shalt not take the. name of the Lord thy God in vain." 
 
 Is this the second commandment? It is not. That child is taught 
 falsehood, which is taught thus to learn the decalogue. If the Roman 
 bishops and archbishops in Ireland and America, in this our day can 
 thus impose on all the youth in the Roman communion, and thus per- 
 vert and annul one of God's commandments, to make way for the 
 worshiping of images, what shall we say of the morality of her rule 
 of faith in this and other matters 1 
 
 It is a poor apology for this expurgation of the decalogue, that it is 
 wot so done in the Douay bible : for when these catechisms were in- 
 troduced, and even yet in most Catholic countries, not one layman in a 
 thousand ever read that bible : the catechism intended for universal 
 consumption contained all his knowledge of God's law. What my- 
 riads, then, through this fraud, must have lived and died in thw be- 
 lief that the second commandment was no part of God's law ! It 
 is clearly proved, that the pastors of the church have struck out one 
 of God's ten WORDS; which not only in the Old Testament, but in all 
 revelation, are the most emphatically regarded as the synopsis of ali 
 religion and morality. They have also made a ninth commandment 
 out of the tenth, and their ninth, in tnat independent position, be-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 215 
 
 comes identical with the seventh commandment, and makes God use 
 a tautology in the only instrument in the universe that he wrote with 
 his own hand ! But why this annulling of the second commandment t 
 Because it is a positive prohibition of the practice of bowing down 
 to images, and doing them homage ; a custom dearer to the Romish 
 church than both the second and the seventh commandment ! It is, 
 however, gross idolatry. So far at least as the ignorant and unedu- 
 cated part of the community is concerned ; no spiritual, no highly 
 cultivated mind needs such aids of worship nay, they would, to 
 such persons, be hindrances rather than aids of devotion. But the 
 uneducated and sensual mass, which are in that community, the vast 
 majority, literally adore the image, and delight>n the picture more 
 than in the Creator. And, therefore, the abrogation of the second 
 commandment, by the priests, is the positive introduction of idolatry. 
 
 The Hebrew bible says and all versions of it in effect say, " Thou 
 shall not make unto thyself any graven image, nor the likeness of 
 any thing in heaven above, nor in the earth beneath. Thou shalt not 
 bow down to them nor serve them." The gentleman made as hand- 
 some and eloquent a defence of the practice of violating this solemn 
 precept as could be well imagined. He referred us to the tabernacle 
 and temple, of ancient time full of types patterns of things in hea- 
 ven, &c: but unfortunately for his logic, none were permitted to wor- 
 ship these patterns of ideas. They were but to portray the things to 
 be revealed in the gospel age a picture-book, to sketcn the outlines 
 of that redemption, which the Messiah wrought, and of the worship 
 of the kingdom of heaven. They never presumed to worship them, 
 they looked through these outward symbols, or signs of ideas, to the 
 spiritual substance as we look through unfigurative language to the 
 sense. 
 
 The " brazen serpent," introduced by my opponent, had the authori 
 ty of God, for its being made, and was a splendid type of him that 
 destroyed the serpent, that old serpent the devil, who had bitten the 
 human race. When men bitten, looked at it, they were healed : but 
 when they began to worship 'it, it was destroyed. I say, it had the 
 authority of God. But where is the same authority for carrying 
 about the bones of a dead saint, or the hair of the Virgin Mary, or 
 the feet of Balaam's ass '? Where is the first word, in favor of wor- 
 shiping or making an image of the cross, or of the Savior, or of any 
 v saint ? or of venerating a grave, a relic, or a picture 1 
 
 My opponent ingeniously asked, if the name of God were not a 
 picture 1 Profound reasoning ! The name of God a picture of the 
 same class with the image of the cross and of the Virgin ! But a 
 mother says to her infant, " my life !" and she may say to Lady Mary 
 in the same style, "my life !" Ingenious ! I would ask this Roman 
 Catholic lady when she looks upon her child, and exclaims " my life," 
 if she feels the same religious affections, the same pious emotions, 
 as when she looks up to Ihe Virgin Mary and exclaims, " my life ? " 
 Is not the gentleman rather playing the sophist, or sporting in jest, 
 than gravely reasoning the subject 1 Certainly, he would not so teach 
 his coHgregation in the absence of Protestants ! This is as felicitous 
 and as rhetorical as his allusions to the device and images on medals, 
 or on gold and silver coin. There is, indeed, idolatry heie ! Bui 
 there is no hypocrisy in the temple of mammon. Moreover, these 
 worshipers adore not the image of money ; but the money itself.
 
 216 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Next came the cherubim. What an association of ideas ! What 
 confusion in the mind that associates the cherubim in Solomon's tem- 
 ple, with the image on a dollar ! Is the gentleman serious? Did the 
 people see the cherubim, in the holiest of all 1 Aaron, the priest, only 
 stood before those cherubim, as the type of our high priest, who offers 
 his sacrifice in heaven : and Aaron stood there only once in a. year. 
 If he understood either the type or the anti-type, he could not adduce 
 it either for the worship of an image or the offering of any sacrifice on 
 earth: for, like Aaron in the holiest of all, Christ offers his sacrifice 
 in heaven. Aaron presented the blood upon the propitiatory : but Christ 
 entered once for all. As the bishop's high priest is not in heaven but 
 at Rome; all the sacrifice which he can offer on earth is not worth a 
 farthing: for in the Christian and Jewish sense, no sacrifice on earth 
 can avail any thing. Such were the types, and such, certainly, are the 
 anti-types. Offerings for sin, now, are only made in heaven. Th 
 very allusion to Aaon, strikes a blow at the priesthood of the Roman 
 Catholic church, as if God had not accepted in heaven, the sacrifice of 
 his Son, and called for their assistance ! ! 
 
 But it is hinted that I should more fully prove the immorality of the 
 Roman Catholic rule of faith'. I have no lack of documents on this 
 subject. The saint Ligori, by the help of saint Pius VII. has richly 
 furnished us with indubitable authority. "The attorney general of the 
 devil lives at Rome," says my opponent, "and prevents the beatifica- 
 tion of all saints." How great, then, must have been the virtues of 
 St. Ligori, who, in spite of the devil, was canonized by pope Pius 
 VI1 1 ! See how equivocation is taught in this rule of faith and mo- 
 rality : 
 
 " To swear," says St. Ligori, " with equivocation, where there is a good rea 
 son, and equivocation itself is lawful, is not wrong. And if a person swears 
 without a good reason, it is not to be considered a perjury: since, in one sense 
 of the word, and according to mental restriction, he swears what is true." Li- 
 gor. Lib. iii. N. 151. [Synopsis, 159. 
 
 Dissimulation is variously taught. 
 
 " It is lawful,'' continues Ligori, "for a Catholic, when he 
 
 is passing through a country belonging to heretics, and is in danger of losing his 
 life or property, to pretend that he is not a Catholic, and to eat meat on fast 
 days." Id. Lib. ii. N. 15. [Synopsis, p. 216. 
 
 This new old rule of faith has made some new sins, which neither 
 patriarchs nor Jews did ever commit; and here is one of that class 
 which no American can ever commit: 
 
 "Is it a mortal sin, "asks the saint, to'steal a small piece of a sacred relic? Ana. 
 " There is no doubt, hut that, in the district of Rome, it is a mortal sin. But out 
 of this district, if any one ste^al a small piece of a relic, it is probable that it is 
 no mortal sin, provided the relic be not thereby disgraced, nor, its value less- 
 ened; unless it be some notable or rare relic, such for instance, as the Holy 
 Cross or the hair ofthe blessed Virgin Mary," &c. Id. ib. N. 532. [Synopsis 
 p. 167. 
 
 There is a secret on the subject of infallibility, which the saint Li- 
 gori has begun to divulge. Custom, it would seem, since general 
 councils are gone out of fashion, is from this time forth to be the 
 standard of orthodoxy and infallibility ; at least, in morals. Listen 
 to the moral theology of the Romish church on this point : 
 
 "Custom," says the saint, "is defined the unwritten law. In orderthat custom 
 should obtain the force and obligation of law, three things are required. 1st. 
 That it be introduced not by any particular person, but by a community, or at 
 least, bv the majority of a community, which is capable of making laws, al- 
 though, in fact, said community cannot make the laws. 2ndly. It is required
 
 BOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 217 
 
 that the custom should be reasonable." Custom has a threefold state. In the 
 beginning all those persons who introduce a custom contrary to law, sin. In 
 process of time, those who follow a custom that has already been introduced 
 fay their ancestors, do not commit a sin in following the custom, but they can be 
 punished for it by the prince. In fine, those who follow a custom after it has 
 become a rule, neither sin, nor can they be punished for it." Id. ib. N. 107. 
 
 " THE TIME REQUIRED ACCORDING TO THE CANONS OF THE ROMISH 
 
 CHURCH, FOR A CUSTOM TO BECOME A LAW. In order that custom should 
 obtain the force and obligation of law, it is required, 
 
 " Silly," continues the saint, " that it should continue a long time with re- 
 peated acts. In regard to the time that is sufficient to render a custom lawful, 
 one opinion is, that it is to be left to the judgment of the prudent, according to 
 the repetition of the acts, and the quality of the matter. The second qpinion is, 
 that ten years are required, and are sufficient; for this is the length of time re- 
 quired for the introducing and legalizing of a custom by the canonical law, un- 
 less it be in some place where the contrary is sanctioned." Id. ib. Lib. i. N. 107. 
 [Synopsis, p. 183. 
 
 acc 
 
 goods on the Lord's day and on festival days are certainly forbidden by 
 onical law, but where the contrary custom prevails, it is excusable." Id. ib. JNT.286, 
 " He who makes use of the knavery and cunning," says the saint, " which is 
 usually practised in gambling, and which has the sanction of custom, is not 
 bound to restore what he wins, since both parties know that such tricks are cus- 
 tomary, and consequently they consent to them." Id. ib. N. 882. 
 
 Gambling consecrated for priests and people by the law of custom : 
 
 " We will now show, however, the canon; to the contrary, notwithstanding, 
 that all sorts of gambling are allowed. This we prove from Ligori's own con- 
 cessions.- He teaches as follows; " The canons," says he '" which forbid games 
 of hazard do not appear to be received except inasmuch as the gambling 
 is carried on with the danger of scandal. Be it known," continues he, "that the 
 above mentioned canonical law is so much nullified by the contrary custom, that 
 not only laymen, but even the clergy do not sin, if they play cards principally 
 for the sake of recreation, and for a moderate sum of money." Id. ib. .N. 883. 
 f Synopsis, p. 235. 
 
 A new way of sanctifying the sabbath : 
 
 "BULL FIGHTS AND PLAYS ALLOWED. "On the entrance of a prince or no- 
 bleman into a city, it is lawful on a Sunday to prepare the drapery, arrange the 
 theatre, &c., and to act a comedy, also to exhibit the bull-fights; the reason is, 
 because such marks of joy are morally necessary for the public weal." Id. ib. 
 N. 304. [Synopsis, p. 193. 
 
 The Roman Catholic rule of manners makes it even lawful to sin : 
 
 " It is lawful," says Ligori, " to induce a person to commit a smaller sin, in or- 
 der to avoid one that is greater." Id. N. 77. [Synopsis', p. 255. 
 
 " Let the confessor," says the saint, " enjoin upon those scrupulous, who are 
 afraid of sin in every action, that they act freely, despise their scruples, and do 
 contrary to what they dictate, where sin is not evident. [Synopsis, p. 173. 
 
 This law licenses drunkenness : 
 
 " It is no sin to get drunk, by the advice of a physician, if one's health cannot 
 otherwise be restored." Id. N. 76. [Synopsis, p. 254. 
 
 Hence drunkards may be acceptable communicants ! 
 
 " It is lawful," says Ligori, " to administer the sacraments to drunkards, if 
 the}' are in the probable danger of death, and had previously the intention of 
 receiving them." Ligor. vi. N. 81. [Synopsis, p. 260. 
 
 Ignorance is the mother of devotion, even yet : 
 
 THE SINNER MUST BE LEFT IN IGNORANCE. The doctrine is as follows: (I 
 take it from the saint verbatim.) " If the penitent (says he,) is in inclinable 
 ignorance, in regard to those things concerning which, it is possible to be invin- 
 cibly ignorant, although this ignorance be of the 'law of God,* and the confessor, 
 prudently thinks that to admonish the penitent would not correct him. then, and 
 in that rase, the confessor must abstain from admonishing the penitent, and must 
 leave him in his ignorance." Id. ib. 
 
 Heretics are still to be punished, not only by virtue of the general 
 T 28
 
 218 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 council of Lateran, A. D. 1215, which says, "Let the secular powers 
 be compelled, if necessary, to exterminate, to their utmost power, all 
 heretics denoted by the church:" but according to the moral theology, 
 as reported by the saint. 
 
 HERETICS TO BE PUKISHED. " A bishop is bound," says Benedict XIV. " even 
 in places where the tribunal of the holy inquisition is in force, sedulously and care- 
 fully to purge the diocese that is committed to his care, from heretics; and, if he 
 find any of them, he ought to punish them according to the rauons; he should 
 however, be cautious, not to hinder the intfuisitors of the faith from doing their 
 duty." Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 378. [Synopsis, p. 294. 
 
 From the influence of all these laws, why should it be thought 
 strange that the clergy are exceedingly corrupt? Listen to the saint: 
 
 How many relapsing sinners are involved in eternal ruin by following the 
 directions of bad confessors! "The saint has told us, that, AMONG THE 
 PRIESTS, WHO LIVE IN THE WORLD, IT IS RARE, AND VERY 
 RARE, TO FIND* AJVY THAT ARE GOOD." [Synopsis, p. 180. 
 
 Yet according to these assumptions, under the sanction of Christ, 
 all are bound to hear them on peril of damnation : for, " he that hear- 
 eth you, heareth me ; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me: and he 
 that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." So, to despise these 
 priests, is to despise God ! 
 
 Once more, from Ligori, and I shall have given almost a specimen 
 of the immorality and impiety of the Roman Catholic rule of faith, on 
 general points of religion and morality. There is no one subject on 
 which we could be more copious than this one : but from respect to our 
 audience we shall give but the remotest hint. 
 
 "A bishop, however poor he may be, cannot appropriate to himself pecuniary 
 fines without the license of the apostolical see. But he ought to apply them to 
 pious uses, which the council of 1'rtnt has laid upon non-resident clergymen, or 
 upon those clergymen who keep nieces." Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444. [Synop- 
 sis, p. 294. 
 
 Now, if a priest should keep a niece, it is a very expiable and tri- 
 fling offence; but should he marry a wife, he must be excommunica- 
 ted forever! Thus the Roman Catholic rule of faith treats the Bible, 
 and annuls, at pleasure, every law and institution of heaven ! Have I 
 not, then, my respected auditors, fully proved the fallibility and im- 
 moral tendency of the doctrine and fule of faith, of the bishop's church 
 to say nothing of that system upon the clergy themselves, who ex- 
 pound and inculcate ill 
 
 One word, before I sit down, on the unanimous consent of the Greek 
 and Latin fathers. I have said before, and I repeat it, if they agree 
 on any two points, they are, in giving testimony to the scriptures, and 
 that it ;s the duty of all to read them. So far they are all Protestant, 
 and not Roman Catholic. '[Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 The extract from Chillingworth will be viewed by men of intelli- 
 
 gence, as one of the strongest arguments advanced in this debate on 
 the Catholic side of the question. And it may be as well to observe, 
 that my friend has probably first seen it in the Catholic work, the 
 Amicable Discussion, from which he has quoted. Chillingworth was 
 
 'distinguished as a controversialist. He had a public disputation, like 
 the present, with some Jesuits, by whom he was not only defeated 
 but converted to the Catholic faith. But yielding, like Gibbon, to the 
 solicitation of friends, the importunities, the livings presented to him,
 
 ROMAX CATHOLIC RELIGION 219 
 
 or to which he was presented, by Laud, archbishop of London, he re- 
 canted, and finally, as it is on good grounds asserted, he died a Jew. 
 The only apology he could offer for his versatility was, that he found 
 every one of these religions in the bible it was the only resting place 
 for the soles of his feet that is to say, he trampled upon it, to subserve 
 the purposes of base, worldly interest ! But I have now, thank God, 
 something more tangible to offer in the way of proof, that nothing 
 can be conceived more inexcusably unfair, than the arguments em- 
 ployed against the Catholic religion. I now pledge myself to shew 
 to every man of honor in this city, that the last allegation read by 
 the gentleman, purporting to be from the works of Liguori, is not tu 
 be found in the works of that writer. It is all a base fabrication, I 
 will not say of Mr. C. ; but of somebody. I will meet this charge 
 with a complete and an overwhelming refutation. We have now 
 come to an important crisis in this debate. My worthy opponent re- 
 duced to the desperation of defeat, like a drowning man, is induced 
 to grasp at anything and to resort to abuse. But this will not sustain 
 him. He cannot now quote from Du Pin, or send his readers back to 
 the dark ages, and draw a grossly exaggerated picture of the personal 
 frailties of a few popes and then ask if there can be a drop of apostolic 
 grace in the whole world. I have three editions of the complete 
 works of Liguori, in my library, or in this city, to refer to ; and in 
 none of them can this vile doctrine be found. Mark, then, the pro- 
 position, my friends. It is this. That priests are allowed to keep 
 mistresses, upon payment of a fine, but that, if they marry, they are 
 excommunicated ! 1 now call upon Charles Hammond, Esq. Judge 
 Hall, General Harrison, Judge Este, Judge Wright, or any other five 
 equally learned and honorable citizens of Cincinnati for I only men- 
 tioned the first that came to my mind to decide this issue of fact 
 I pronounce the whole charge a base, unfounded assertion, and I again 
 thank Heaven, that I am in a city, where justice will be done to 
 the truth, and where falsehood will be triumphantly defeated. 
 
 The volume from which the gentleman has been all day reading, is 
 one of those books of abomination and falsehood ; put forth, in the 
 city of New York, by Smith, Slocum and Co. and it is a fair specimen 
 of their fashion of circulating truth. Does it not furnish strong pre- 
 sumption to the reflecting mind, that there must be something divine 
 in the religion which such men and women combine to abuse ? It 
 was the monster Nero, notorious for parricide and lust, who first drew 
 the sword against the Christian religion. Forget not then, I pray you. 
 my friends, the proposition that is before us. I am determined not tc 
 slumber or sleep on this matter, but to probe it thoroughly and ex- 
 pose its rottenness to the world. Mr. CAMPBELL'S allegation against 
 the Catholic church, is that Liguori, a standard moralist in that 
 church, teaches, that priests may keep concubines by paying a fine, but 
 that if they marry, they must be excommunicated. Whereas I distinctly 
 deny that Liguori has ever taught any thing so abominable, and that 
 all who say so, are guilty of a most flagrant violation of the command- 
 ment of our God, which says "Tnou SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS 
 
 AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR." Exod. XX. 16. 
 
 The charge of suppressing the 2nd commandment, while proof to the 
 contrary, from the Catholic catechisms every where in use in the U. S. 
 and from every Catholic bible in the world, was staring him in the face, 
 may be placed along side of the foregoing! Add to these, the hardi-
 
 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 hood irith which the plainest words of the Redeemer, the emphatic 
 declaration of St. Paul, and the highest eulogy of the Apocalypse 
 on the superior sanctity of the unmarried state, have been violently 
 tortured by my opponent, and a fair estimate may be made of the re- 
 spect he entertains for the bible. Even his jests are but little help to 
 his argument, for error was never genuinely witty. And when he af- 
 fects to laugh at St. Paul for his having- been a bachelor, I shall con- 
 tent myself with replying, yes ! St. Paul was a bachelor : but would 
 he not have looked well, with seven little squealing children trotting 
 after him, visiting the churches of Asia ! The remark of St. Paul, 
 " have I not a right to lead about a sister T' has reference to the prac- 
 tice then early introduced, of entrusting in some cases, the instruction 
 of females, to persons of their own sex, and to the greater facilities af 
 forded in this respect, to the apostles and preachers of Christianity, to 
 convey the knowledge of true religion to promiscuous society, wheth- 
 er Jewish or Pagan. I consider marriage a holy, nay, a divine insti- 
 tution. I respect the sanctity of the union, and pay a willing tribute 
 of praise to the eminent virtue of persons engaged in that state ; but 
 I must reason and judge with Christ and St. Paul, that if, " he who 
 marries does well, he who does not does better." A priest assumes 
 the obligation of celibacy, at mature age, and voluntarily. God's 
 grace is sufficient for him, as it was for St. Paul, and his virtuous 
 struggles against the evil spirit, that dared to tempt even the Savior, 
 in the desert, and Paul, who had been rapt up even to the third hea- 
 ven, can make virtue perfect in infirmity, without the priest's being as 
 foolish as the thief, who cut off his hands, to keep himself from steal- 
 ing. I hope however that my opponent, or his.auxiliary, Smith, will 
 not be tempted to cut off his hands, for stealing from Liguori, what 
 is better to any man than trashy gold, his good name. One word 
 more. If marriage were as pleasing in the sight of God, as celibacy, 
 why did God and St. Paul direct abstinence from marriage privileges 
 as a preparation for seasons of greater devotion 1 According to my 
 friend, should they not have commanded the contrary? 
 
 I pass, in the next place, to relics. The chair in which the signers 
 of the declaration of Independence sat, the pen with which they wrote 
 the glorious document, a bit of the wood of the tree overshadowing 
 the grave of the illustrious Washington, are all treated with respect, 
 and sought for with avidity : shall religious memorials alone be trea- 
 ted contemptuously'? What says the scripture, Acts. xix. 11. And 
 God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles, so that 
 even then were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs, and aprons^ 
 and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of 
 them. " The woman, troubled twelve years, with an issue of blood, 
 said within herself, " if I shall touch only his garment, I shall be 
 healed," and she was healed; and Jesus turning and seeing her said: Be 
 of good heart daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole." Even without faitA 
 or consciousness, there is a miraculous cure recorded in IV Kings xiii. 
 21. " And Eliscus died and they buried him. And the Rovers from 
 Muab came into the land, the same year. And some that were burying a 
 man, saw the Rovers and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And 
 when he had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life, and stood 
 upon his feet." I have no doubt that these texts have never been read, 
 or at least reflected on, by learned Protestants, like my friend, who 
 Catholics in the pious simplicity of their souls, for venerating
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. !>21 
 
 dead men's bones. If the corpse of a prophet who had never seen Je- 
 sus Christ, could impart such a miraculous virtue, as to resuscitate 
 the dead, why is it considered absurd to invoke the prayers of thb 
 living and beatified spirit that knew and loved, and watched over the 
 Savior on earth, and that now reigns gloriously with him in heaven 1" 
 If Eliseus was good, was not Mary good! If the prophet of the Sa- 
 vior had so much power, had the mother of the Savior none ? Hav- 
 ing now disposed of celibacy and relics, I resume the subject of con 
 fession. 
 
 I shall now proceed to vindicate the scriptural origin, the moral 
 tendency and the immense benefits conferred on society by the theory 
 and practice of the sacrament of penance, as held in the Catholic 
 church, from the weighty charges preferred against it by my oppo- 
 nent. On this subject the council of Trent, ch. vi. teaches: " the penance 
 of a Christian arter his fall (from the grace of baptism) is very different 
 from that of baptism, and consists, not only in REFRAINING FROM SINS, 
 AND A DETESTATION OF THEM, namely, a contrite and humble heart, but 
 also in a sacramental confession of them, at least in desire and at a 
 proper time, and the priestly absolution ; and, likewise, in satisfac- 
 tion, by fasting, alms, prayers, and other pious exercises of a spiritual 
 life ; not, indeed, for the eternal punishment, which, together with the 
 crime, is remitted in the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament, 
 but for the temporal punishment, which the scripture teaches is not 
 always wholly remitted as in baptism." Such is, and ever has been, 
 the doctrine of the Catholic church, which thus ascribes the whole 
 glory of man's justification TO GOD, through Jesus Christ, our only 
 Savior. She teaches that God alone can forgive sin, and that without 
 sincere sorrow, which induces us to detest sin more than all other 
 evils together, the words of absolution would be a mockery ; and this 
 sorrow may be called contrition, or attrition, the name matters little ; 
 it must be true, interior, preter-natural, universal, sovereign ; that is to 
 say, it must come from the heart, and from a motive suggested by 
 faith ; it must extend to all sins without exception, and be accompa- 
 nied by a sincere resolution to suffer every evil, even death itself, rather 
 than offend God any more. This is the only idea of penance, as a 
 sacrament, inculcated by the Catholic church, and from this, it ap- 
 pears, how horrid is the guilt of our calumniators, who, when they 
 find us otherwise invulnerable, assail us with the poisonous shafts of 
 slander and misrepresentation, pretending, while they know full well 
 how sincerely we reprobate the doctrine they impute to us, that the 
 pope grants licence to commit sin, and that priests forgive it for money ! 
 
 The power of the priests to absolve the contrite sinner, is based on 
 the texts, John xx. Matthew xvi. where Christ gives the keys of hea- 
 ven to Peter, and Ch. xviii. 13, when he declares to all the apostles, after 
 breathing on them, and giving them the Holy Ghost, " Verily I say unto 
 you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and 
 whatsoever ye shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven." By these 
 words we consider the priest vested with a judicial power by Jesus 
 Christ, to bind or to loose from sin ; and as this power cannot be ex- 
 ercised without a knowledge of the sinner's dispositions, especially as 
 to his sorrow for past sins, and his sincere resolution to refrain from 
 them in future, which knowledge none but the sinner himself can 
 give, we conclude on the necessity of sacramental confession to th 
 the priest, who holds the place of Christ in the spiritual tribunal. 
 T2
 
 222 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 There is no immorality in this belief; on the contrary, the most in 
 calculable benefits have accrued from it to religion and to society. If 
 my friend say that it is impious to ascribe to man a power which be- 
 longs to God alone, I answer, that if God choose to give such power 
 to man, it would be impious in man to deny such power to God, and 
 a grievous sin of disobedience, to refuse to use it. If he persist in 
 saying, that man cannot be empowered by God to forgive sin in the 
 sacrament of penance, I will ask him, why then is man empowered 
 to forgive sin in the sacrament of baptism? I ask, why does he 
 quarrel with Catholics for employing the words' "I absolve thee 
 from thy sins," when Episcopalians do the samel Here is the church 
 of England book of common prayer; and in it, I read as follows : 
 " When the minister visits any sick person, the latter should be moved 
 to make a special confession of his sins, if he feels his conscience troubled 
 with any weighty matter ; after which confession, the priest shall absolve 
 him, if he humbly and heartily desire it, after this sort ; " Our Lord Jesus 
 Christ, who hath left power to his church, to absolve all sinners who truly 
 repent and believe in him, of his great mercy, forgive thee thine offences, 
 and by his authority committed tome, I ABSOLVE THEE FROM ALL THY SINS, 
 in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," Jlmen. 
 Soon after king James I. presented to the world, in his own person, 
 the anomaly of head and member of the English church, and lord spi- 
 ritual and temporal of the realm, he asked his prelates at Hampton 
 court, what authority this church claimed in the article of absolution 
 from sin? (Mark the new Peter did not know his powers !) Arch- 
 bishop Whitgift began to bamboozle him with an account of the gene- 
 ral confession and absolution in the communion service ; with which 
 the king being dissatisfied, Bancroft bishop of London, fell on his knees 
 and said, "It becomes us to deal plainly with your majesty; there is, 
 also, in the book, a more particular and personal absolution in the 
 visiting of the sick. Not only the confessions of Augsburgh, Bohemia, 
 and Saxony, retain and allow it, but also Mr. CALVIN doth approve 
 both such a general and such a private confession and absolution." "I 
 exceedingly well approve it, replied his majesty, it being an apostolical 
 and godly ordinance." Bancroft was right in quoting the Augsburgh 
 confession, for the Lutherans, the real Simon Pure of the reformation, 
 in the confession of faith, and apology for that confession, expressly 
 teach, " that absolution is no less a sacrament than baptism and the Lord's 
 supper ; that particular absolution is to be retained in confession, that to 
 -eject it is the error of the Novatian heretics ; and that by the power of the 
 ke.ys, sins are remitted, not only in the night of the church, but in the sigh: 
 of God." Luther himself, in his catechism, required, that the penitent in 
 confession should expressly declare that he believes " the forgiveness of the 
 priest to be the forgiveness of God." 
 
 On this topic, before taking up the voluminous evidence before me 
 for the doctrine of the Episcopalians, on this side the great water, I 
 must produce evidence, not to be contradicted by the champion of all 
 Protestantism. It is that of the redoubted Chillingworth. Treating 
 of the text, John xx. 22, 3, he asks : " Can any man be so unreason- 
 able as to imagine, that when our Savior, in so solemn a manner, having 
 first breathed upon his disciples, thereby conveying and insinuating the 
 Holy Ghost into their hearts, renewed unto them, or rather confirmed that 
 g,onous commission, whereby he delegated to then an authority of bind
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 223 
 
 ing and loosing sins upon earth, can any one think, 1 say, so unworthily 
 vf our Savior, as 'to esteem these words of his for no better than compli- 
 ment? Therefore, in obedience to his gracious will, and as I am war- 
 ranted and enjoined by my holy mother, the church of England, (you see 
 Protestants use the style ' holy mother church? as well as Catholics') I be 
 seech you that by your practice and use, you will not sniffer that commis- 
 sion which Christ hath given to his ministers, to be a vain form of words, 
 \vithout any sense under them. When you find yourselves charged and 
 oppressed, have recourse to your spiritual physician, and freely disclose 
 the nature and malignity of your disease. And come not to him only 
 with such a mind as you would go to a learned man, as one that can 
 speak comfortable things to you ; but. as to one that hath authority, dele- 
 gated to him from God himself, to absolve and acquit you of your tins. 
 If you shall do this, assure your souls, that the understanding of men, is 
 not able to conceive the transport, and excess of joy and comfort, which 
 shall accrue to that man's heart, who is persuaded he hath been made par- 
 taker nf this blessing." 
 
 An accredited writer in the New York Churchman, of the 7th Jan. 
 one of the ablest periodicals in the United States, quotes the most 
 convincing texts from Origen, Cyprian, Basil and Gregory, under the 
 head of antiquity. 
 
 Origen (flor. A. D. 220) in Horn. 10 in Numb. 
 
 " Laicus si pecctt, ipse suuiu non potest auferre peccatum, sed indiget sa- 
 cerdote, ut possit reinissionem peccatoruni accipere." The same father, in hig 
 seventh homily on Luke, " Si enini hoc fecerunus et revelaverimus peccata 
 nostra, non solum DEO; sed et his, qui possunt mederi vulneribus nostris alque 
 peccatis; deU-buntur peccata nostra ab eo, qui ait, ecce delebo, ut nubem, iniqui- 
 tates tuas et sicut caligineni peccata tua." (Lat. ver. ex. Tavlor.) 
 
 St. Cyprian (flor. A. D. 240) in lib. de lapsis. 
 
 "Confiteantur siuguli, qmeso vos, Iratres, delictum siium; dum adhuc, qui deli- 
 quit, in saeculo est, dum admitti ejus confessio potest, dum satisfactio, et remis- 
 sio facta per sarcrdotes apud Dominum grata est." 
 
 St. Basil (flor. A. D. 360) in Regal, explic. et Reg. Brev,; 228. 
 
 T- ' X*-V tr *v T >ux x(v*w.- iwoxuov u*.xtr<riv \X* 
 
 ,. , 
 
 St. Gregory M. (flor. A. D. 590) in horn. 26 in Octav. Pascho. 
 
 "Caus;e pensanuu' sunt, et cum ligandi atque solvendi potestas exercenda, vi- 
 deudum est, qua; culpa ante, qua sit poenitentia sequuta, post culpain; ut quos 
 omnipotens Deus percompunctionisgratiam viviticat, illos pastorissententiaabsol- 
 vat: tuncenim veraestabsolutio praesidentiscum eterni arbitriumsequiturjudiri-." 
 
 " When St. James exhorts all Christians ' to confess their sins to one another,' 
 rertainly it is more agreeable to all spiritual ends, that this be done rather to 
 the curate of souls, than to the ordinary brethren. The church of England is 
 no way engaged against it, but admires it and practises it. The Calvinist church- 
 es did not practise it much, because they knew not well how to divest it from 
 its evil appendages, which are put to it by the customs of the world, and to 
 which it is too much exposed bv the interests, weaknesses, and partialities of 
 men. But they commending it, "shew they would use it willingly, if they could 
 order it unto edification. " Interim quin sistant se pastori oves, quoties sacram 
 contain participare volunt, adeo non reclamo.ut maxime velini hoc ubique obser- 
 vaii." Calvin. Institut. liber, iii. c. 4. Sec. 12, 13. And for the Lutheran 
 churches, that it is their practice, we may see in Chemuitios, 2. part. Gan. 
 Cone. Trid. Cap. 5. de Poenit. who is noted to this purpose by Bellannine: only 
 they all consent (how very consistently) that it is not necessary, nor of divine 
 institution." Jeremy Taylor of auricular confession. 
 
 " For they who are spoiled with sins, unless they be cured with the priestly 
 authority, cannot be in the bosom of the church," said Fabianus Jlarlyr (cited 
 by Taylor.)
 
 224 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 Translation of the above extracts from the Latin fathers. 
 
 (1) If a layman sin, he cannot himself take away his sin, but has need of a priest, that ha 
 may obtain the remission of his sins. 
 
 (2) For if we do this, and reveal ourselves not only to God, but to those who can heal 
 our wounds and sins, our sins will he blotted out by him, who says: "Behold, I will take 
 away your iniquitieg as a cloud, and your sins as darkness." 
 
 (3) I beseech you, brethren, let each one confess his siiis, while he who has sinned is yet 
 in lite, while his confession may be admitted, while the satisfaction and remission made by 
 the priests is ratified with God. 
 
 (4) It behuveih each subject to conceal no passion of his soul, but to reveal the hidden 
 things of his heart to those entrusted with the care of the infirm. 
 
 (5) The causes are to be weighed, and when the power of loosing and binding is to be 
 exercised, we must see what cause preceded, and what penance has followed the fault, that 
 the sentence of the pastor may absolve those whom the Omnipotent God, by the grace of 
 compunction, enlivens: for then the absolution of the minister is correct, when he follow! 
 the decree of the eternal Judge. 
 
 [For English divines, see close of last speech of Saturday, January 21.] 
 
 THURSDAY, JANUARY 19ra, Half-post 9 A. M. 
 Thft 3d Proposition being read 
 
 " She is the Babylon of John, the Man of Sin of Paul, and the Empire of the 
 Youngest Horn of Daniel's Sea Monster," 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL rose and said : 
 
 I could have wished, my fellow citizens, that this proposition had 
 been nearer the close of this discussion. But as my nine propositions 
 were first arranged as themes for lectures, rather than as propositions 
 for debate; I conld not materially alter either the verbiage or order, af- 
 ter I had been invited to discuss them with my present opponent. 
 Without further ceremony, I proceed to sustain the proposition. 
 
 I am not insensible of the difficulties and objections we have to en- 
 counter, when we presume to prove any thing from the figurative and 
 symbolic language of prophecy. The difficulties are not, however, so 
 great as at first view may appear. Symbols are exempt from some of 
 the objections lying against literal descriptions They need no translation. 
 Sun, moon, and stars speak the same sublime language to every eye, 
 and suggest the same devout and lofty emotions to every heart. A 
 lion, a leopard, a bear, an earthquake, a tempest, a swelling sea, are 
 types of the same ideas, and call forth the same thrilling sensations in 
 every spectator. Hence the wisdom in selecting appropriate symbols 
 of the persons and scenes which fill up the great drama of human exis- 
 tence, and diversify the prophetic chart, which the revealing Spirit 
 holds up to the eye of the diligent and faithful student of the word and 
 providence of God. 
 
 But, as on a globe of 13 inches diameter, the earth with all its oceans 
 and continents, its mountains and valleys, its lakes and islands, cities 
 and districts, can be displayed in the proper positions and relative sizes 
 of all its parts, and in an instant presented to the eye; so in a symbol, 
 can be grouped together all the grand characteristics of a people or an 
 event, and so accurately and comprehensively, that by a single glance 
 of the eye more can be learned than from the perusal of a volume. 
 
 This is, indeed, an advantage which figurative representation has 
 over that which is purely literal and descriptive. By a glance of the 
 eye on a globe, or a map, one can have a better idea of a country, or 
 of the earth, than from the reading of volumes; so by considering a 
 symbolic representation, we may acquire a more vivid and comon 
 hensive view of a subject than by the perusal of many pages.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 225 
 
 There \i but one eye in the universe that pierces al. nature through; 
 to which th? past, the present, and the future are equally plain. God 
 alone knows the future. He has revealed it. In the seventh chapter 
 of Daniel, now lying before me, we have one great meridian line, which 
 runs from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth, and from the reign 
 of Nebuchadnezzar, the proudest of Assyrian kings, to the ultimate 
 triumph of the Gospel throughout the whole earth. 
 
 We shall rapidly sketch the contents of this chapter, which embraces 
 more of human destiny than can be gleaned from all human records. 
 Daniel is in vision translated to the Mediterranean the great sea- 
 symbol of people in commotion ; as the earth is of the people at rest. 
 There can he no more appropriate or striking picture of human society 
 than the sea. Sometimes it is tranquil and smooth as oil, like a splen 
 did mirror reflecting the azure vault of heaven: anon it is ruffled by 
 a gentle breeze that ripples softly on its bosom: again, it swells and 
 foams and rages in huge mountain waves that strike with a sublime 
 awe the eye of every beholder. So the people who, to day are all in 
 peace and amity in the smooth current of their daily avocations, by some 
 evil wind or passion are swollen into some mob, or tumuU, or tre- 
 mendous conflict, which for a moment rends the social compact, 
 destroys all confidence, and jeopardizes the best interests of all. Thus 
 in the symbol now before us ; the winds, the passions of men, are in 
 some great tumult. They strive upon the great sea. Four terrific and 
 appalling savage monsters in quick succession rise. 
 
 They were all sea monsters, for God's symbol of a tyrannical gov- 
 ernment has always been a savage wild beast. The first was like a 
 lion wkh eagle's wings the fortunes of this eagle-winged lion com- 
 ing out of a tempestuous sea, fitly symbolized Assyria in its rise, glo- 
 ry, and decline, after the dynasties of more than fourteen hundred years. 
 
 The savage beast, like to a bear, raising itself on one side, standing 
 with three ribs in its mouth, viz. Babylon, Lydia and Egypt, represents, 
 because of its rapacity and cruelty, the empire of the Medes and Pe 
 sians. This rose from the sea which overwhelmed the Assyrian pow 
 er: and it continued for two hundred years. 
 
 A leopard-like monster, with four heads and four wings upon it, 
 back, indicates the rapid conquests of Alexander. His short-livei 
 empire of ten years, reared upon the ruins of the Medo-Persian, ant 
 spotted with various nations, finally partitioned among his own fou 
 principal generals, is most appositely represented by the symbol ofthfc 
 sixth verse. 
 
 But a fourth beast, dreadful and tenible, and strong exceedingly 
 having great iron teeth : which devoured and brake in pieces, and 
 stamped the residue with the feet of it, diverse from all the beasts 
 that were before it, having ten horns, portrays the Roman empire in 
 those fortunes connected with the principal figure in the group. In 
 terpreters are as much agreed about the import of these symbols as are 
 lexicographers in defining the ordinary words of human speech. For, 
 although they may differ about the time when, or the place where, one 
 of these symbols may rise, or fall, there is scarcely any controversy on 
 the symbols themselves, or subjects to which they refer. 
 
 But the principal figure in these four monsters remains yet 
 to be described. " I considered," says the prophet, " and, behold, 
 there came up among them (rather, *' behind them" and unobserv- 
 ed) another L'TTLE HORN, before which, three of the first horns 
 
 15
 
 226 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 were plucked up by the roots." Horns, as defined by the Spirit, mean 
 kings or kingdoms. The Roman empire was first partitioned between 
 ten kings or states, after the irruption of the northern barbarians. 
 Pepin, the king of France, gave to a pope of Rome one horn, viz. the 
 exarchate of Ravenna. Charlemagne gave to Peter's successor the 
 kingdom of the Lombards the second horn ; and Lewis the Pious con- 
 firmed to the Pope the State of Home, a third horn of the original ten. 
 Thus, before the little horn became very conspicuous, three horns made 
 loom for it, and it occupied their places. 
 
 But the eleventh horn is particularly described in the words following, 
 to wit : " In this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and it had a 
 mouth speaking great things." Here we have a horn, a government, 
 full of eyes, sagacious, politic, cunning : and eloquent, persuasive, 
 boastful, rhetorical, for such are the chief attributes of the horn full of 
 eyes, having a mouth, &c. The identification of this horn is the grand 
 point before us. We shall, therefore, hastily seek out its distinguish- 
 ing attributes. 
 
 By reading the chapter with, now and then, the interposition of a 
 word, we shall see that the peculiarities of the little horn are clearly 
 and definitely marked. 
 
 "I beheld," says Daniel, "I contemplated the horns till the thrones 
 were cast down (rather set up : as in the Vulgate, positi sun/,) and the 
 ANCIENT OF DAYS did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the 
 hair of his head like the pure wool, his throne was like the fiery flame, 
 and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth 
 from before him, thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thou- 
 sand times ten thousand stood before him, the judgment was set and 
 the books were opened. I beheld then, because of the voice of the 
 great words which the horn spake, I beheld till the beast was slain 
 and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame." Mark, the 
 entire and complete destruction of the beast of the little horn is as- 
 signed to his arrogance and blasphemy, because of the words which 
 he spake against God and his saints. The other beasts simply lost 
 their dominion, but their lives were spared. " As concerning the oth- 
 er beasts, they had their dominion taken away, but their lives were 
 prolonged." So ends the general statement concerning the whole, and 
 the broken, and the restored, empire of the fourth beast. 
 
 But to proceed to the second part of the vision. " I saw," &c. 
 " One like a SON OF MAN (bar-enosK) came with the clouds of hea- 
 ven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before 
 him, and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, 
 that all people, nations, and languages should serve him ; liis dominion 
 is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his king- 
 dom that which shall not be destroyed.- I asked the meaning of all this, 
 to he told me and made me understand the interpretation of the things." 
 
 We have now an interpretation authorized and confirmed. "These great 
 beasts which are four, are four kings which shall arise out of the earth. 
 But the saints of the MOST HIGH shall take (receive) the kingdom, 
 and possess the kingdom for ever even for ever and ever." " Then 
 I would know the truth (meaning) of the fourth beast (empire,) 
 and of the ten horns; and of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that 
 spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows." 
 The interpreting angel then explains this portion of the vision. " The
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 227 
 
 fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom." (King and kingdom are 
 sometimes used interchangeably.) There never were but four great 
 universal empires on earth, and there never will be another, except that 
 of the Messiah. His universal empire will be the fifth. The fourth 
 beast " shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down and break 
 it in pieces." So did the Roman empire. And the ten horns are ten 
 kings (or kingdoms) which shall arise out of this empire or kingdom ; 
 and another (THE LITTLE HORN) shall arise AFTER them. And he shall 
 be DIVERSE (not merely political) from the first (ten) and he shall sub- 
 due three kings; not only shall three of the kings give place to' 
 him, but he shall destroy the antagonist power of the three empires 
 that preceded his. " He shall speak great words against the 
 MOST HIGH, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and 
 think to change times and laws. (These three never met in any beings 
 save the popes of Rome.) And they shall be given into his hand un- 
 til a time, and times, and the dividing of a time." 
 
 A time is one annual revolution ; a times, two ; and half a time, 
 half a year; in all, forty-two months ; or one thousand two hundred 
 and three score days, the product of forty-two thirties ; or forty-two 
 Jewish months. Of all this, and of one day being given for a year, 
 there is no controversy among Catholics or Protestants. The continu- 
 ance of the empire of the LITTLE HORN is therefore predestined to twelve 
 hundred and sixty years. 
 
 But the judgment shall sit. The long prayed for and expected judg- 
 ment shall be given in favor of the saints. Then shall be taken away 
 his dominion to consume and to DESTROY it unto the end or consumma- 
 tion. " Then" with anticipated triumph be it spoken "the kingdom 
 and dominion and the greatness of the kingdom, under the whole 
 heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, 
 (They were not all worn out by the Little Horn) whose kingdom is an 
 everlasting kingdom, AND ALL DOMINIONS SHALL SERVE AND OBEY HIM.'* 
 Hitherto is the end of the matter. 
 
 Now of all these items the sum is 
 
 1. It is a beast, or empire, or power, that grew out of the Roman beast. 
 
 2. It rose after the empire was divided into ten kingdoms. 
 
 3. It was a new and different power, sagacious and politic with 
 human eyes an eloquent, persuasive, and denunciatory power. 
 
 4. It supplanted and displaced three of the original states of the 
 Roman empire or of the ten kingdoms into which it was at first divided. 
 
 5. It assumed more than any other empire. It uttered great things 
 and its look was more stout (daring) than its fellows. 
 
 6. It made war not against sinners, like other empires it made war 
 against saints. 
 
 7. It prevailed for a long time against them. It " wore out the saints." 
 
 8. It presumed to change times and laws. How many fasts, and 
 feasts, and saints, and new laws, and institutions has this power set up ! 
 
 9. It had power to hold in subjection all saints, and to lord it over 
 them for a long time. 
 
 10. It was to be consumed, gradually wasted as the Protestant Re- 
 formation has been wasting its power and substance for three centuries 
 and is yet finally, suddenly and completely to be destroyed. Can 
 my learned opponent find all these characteristics and circumstances in 
 any other power or empire in the history of all time ! I trust he will
 
 228 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 give me an opportunity to expatiate on these points and to defend them 
 more fully. 
 
 Meantime, to excite attention, I positively affirm that these items 
 never met in any King, Kingdom, State or Empire, save that of Papal 
 Rome. There, and there' only, can they all be found as large as life ; 
 and as exact as answers the image in the mirror to the face. 
 
 But I hasten to identify this prediction with the Babylon of John. 
 And in doing this I can at present but sketch the rudest outline. Let 
 us open the 13th chapter. 
 
 John stands in vision on the shore of the great sea, the Mediterrane- 
 an. He saw a savage beast rising out of the sea. It had seven heads 
 and ten horns, and on its heads the names of blasphemy. It resembled 
 the lion, the bear, and the leopard. It was composed of all that is 
 savage. The dragon, the serpent of my opponent, Pa^an Rome gave 
 him his power and his throne, and great authority. How much does 
 this resemble the vision of Daniel ! This seven headed Empire with 
 ten horns It is on this beast the woman sat subsequently pictured 
 out as BABYLON THE GREAT. This is the Latin Empire which sustained 
 the Latin church. This is the beast out of which the LITTLE HORN grew. 
 
 The wounded head or the imperial, which was the sixth head, was 
 healed by the great Charles, and his new empire controlled by the ec- 
 clesiastic beast, spoke blasphemies and daring things against God, his 
 name, and all that dwell in heaven. This new religious and political 
 Empire "made war against the saints and overcame them." "And it con- 
 tinued for forty-two months" "a time, and times and a dividing of time.' 
 
 His dominion extended over all the western Roman Empire. But 
 next comes the Little Horn the ecclesiastical beast. In John's vision 
 this beast resembles a lamb, but it speaks like a dragon ! Christian 
 Rome spoke like Pagan Rome ! It obliged all the earth to worship the 
 draaton It was Catholic ! ! It made an image of the Pagan beast. It 
 gave life to this image, and compelled all to die or worship the image 
 of the Pagan beast. It was then a bloody persecuting beast. It was 
 idolatrous as Pagan Rome. But instead of worshiping dead heroes 
 it worships dead saints instead of Goddesses it has Lordesses ; angels 
 instead of demi-gods. 
 
 Indeed Papal Rome has borrowed much from Pagan Rome Old 
 Rome had her poniifex maximus, her purgatory, priests and priestesses, 
 her victims and " hosts." She had her lustral water as modern Rome 
 has her holy water. She had her vestal virgins as her descendant has 
 her nuns. She had her Pantheon as modern Rome has her Vatican, 
 and in the niches where stood the gods of the dragon now stand the 
 saints of the Roman Draconic lamb. _ 
 
 My present argument requires me to identify this beast with the 
 Roman church or with the Little Horn. And therefore in addition tc 
 the resembling attributes already traced I proceed to the most definite 
 of its marks. " Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding 
 compute the number of the beast : for it is the number of a man, and 
 his number is six hundred and sixty six." 
 
 The ecclesiastic beast, or kingdom is thus definitely the letters of a 
 name which together make 666. The name of a man is the name of 
 this kingdom. Now we begin with a Roman saint even with the 
 great Irenoeus. We shall find in the name of the king and founder of 
 the Latin empire the name of this prophetic personage It is said by
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 229 
 
 the saint that among the Greeks the king's name was written Lateinot 
 the letters of which being numerals in that language exactly make the 
 sum : for A 30 
 
 i 
 
 t 300 
 
 > 5 
 
 10 
 
 50 
 
 o 70 
 s 200 
 
 666 
 
 He made the name of the founder stand for the name of the empire. 
 But Bellarmine, a learned Jesuit, objects to this that in the language 
 and at the time the Revelation was written the orthography of this name 
 was AatT/vcf, and not AaTi/vo?. And this being so there is a plausible, nay a 
 relevant objection aginst the interpretation of Irenseus. We pause not 
 to examine this matter; 'because we find a much more consistent and 
 convincing exposition in the true and proper name of the Institution 
 which in Greek was always written in full. 
 
 HAc.Tn/SsjiMi.i The Latin Kingdom. H 8, A=-30. =!, r=300, <=10, v=50, 
 n=8. S=2, =1, ?=200, <=>10, \=30, i=5, .=10, =1 : The sum, 666. 
 
 The conclusion from these premises is, that as there is no other king- 
 dom on earth whose name is exactly 666~-and as the beast, the symbol 
 of this kingdom, has been proved to be the Latin empire, and He La- 
 tine Basileia, being proved to contain 666, this definitely and clearly 
 marks out the Roman Institution as that to which the 13th chapter of 
 the apocalypse and the 7th chapter of Daniel refer. 
 
 The only question of apparent difficulty that can be here asked, is : 
 Whether Rome Pagan or Rome Papal is intended : for thit Rome 
 is intended cannot be questioned. That it is Rome Papal is evident 
 from the fact that what is called the second Beast, chap. 13, verse 12, is, 
 chap. 18 and 20, called the false prophet and this is the beast whose 
 name is given as numerically equivalent to 666. 
 
 This moreover explains that love of Latin which to this day distin- 
 guishes this party. They not only have long gloried in the name Ro- 
 man or Latin Catholic or Church of Rome, but they still say mass in 
 Latin, and perform their religious services in that dead language ; for 
 although Paul " had rather speak five sentences in the vernacular, than 
 ten thousand sentences in an unknown tongue" that he might edify 
 his hearers, and although in the age of the " primitive Fathers" the 
 whole church prayed and taught in the language of every country 
 where they worshiped ; still for the sake of Latin, to this day and even 
 in this coun try ,_ Romanists perform their most devout services in that 
 dead and foreign tongue as though God himself preferred that language 
 to every other. Thus they are providentially bearing to all nations and 
 languages the grand mark, and the number of the name which identifies 
 them as the beast and Babylon of John. 
 
 To return to the imagery of the Prophet John : In the 17th chapter 
 this ecclesiastic establishment is compared to a great harlot, with whom 
 the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and as having intox- 
 icated all the inhabitnnts of the earth with the wine of her whoredom, 
 The woman is further identified by being described as sitting upon a 
 scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having teven heads and ten 
 horns; and she is adorned with purple and scarlet, with gold, and dia- 
 monds, and pearls ; having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomi- 
 nation and pollution of her whoredoms. 'She had upon her forehead hoi
 
 230 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 name written : " MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER ot 
 HARLOTS, AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." And to make 
 the matter more certain, the Spirit testifies, verse 18 : "The woman 
 which you saw is the great city (spiritually called Babylon, literally, 
 Papal Rome) that rules over the kings of the earth." 
 
 Having thus connected these symbols, and seen the co-adaptation to 
 the same subject we shall here introduce the Apostle Paul with his 
 plain and unfigurative description of the Man of Sin, 2d chap. 2d The*- 
 salonians, and examine the congruity of his description with the sym- 
 bols of Daniel and John. He may be regarded as the literal interpre- 
 ter of them both. 
 
 " Let no man deceive you by any means : for that day shall not come, 
 except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, 
 the son of perdition ; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that 
 is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the 
 temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, 
 that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things ] And now ye 
 know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For 
 the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth 
 will let, until he he taken out of the way. And then shall that Wick- 
 ed be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his 
 mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even 
 him, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all powers, and 
 signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteous- 
 ness in them that perish ; because they received not the love of the 
 truth, that they might be saved." Verses 3 10. 
 
 The Apostle foretells an apostacy (a falling away) in the Church ; 
 which apostacy would issue in the full revelation or manifestation of 
 THE MAN OF SIN, (or of idolatry, for this is the sin of Jews and Gen- 
 tiles.) The Man of Sin is again designated as the SON OF PERDITION. 
 He was the subject of past prophecy as Judas was; for on that account 
 he too was called the Son of Perdition foredoomed to ruin. The names 
 of Man of Sin and Son of ruin, fitly represent this apostacy. The at- 
 tributes and circumstances peculiar to this passage are the following. 
 
 1. He was to come forward stealthily by degrees and unobserved, 
 (like Daniel's Little Horn, to grow up behind the others) " The secret, 
 or mystery of iniquity already inwardly works." 
 
 2. He could not be revealed till " He who restrains or lets (the Pa- 
 gan power) be taken out of the way." Political power as well as ec- 
 clesiastic was necessary to his development. So the Little Horn 
 did not appear conspicuous till after the ten horns grew out of the 
 fourth beast. The Man of Sin is, in historic truth, the youngest horn 
 that sprung from the Pagan beast. 
 
 3. He was to exalt himself above efll that is called a God, or an 
 objact of worship. My learned opponent will agree with me that God 
 here may mean, as sometimes it does in the Bible, a magistrate or king. 
 And certainly not only in the arrogant titles which he assumes,j3ut 
 in the dispensations which he has granted, in respect to laws 
 divine and human, no magistrate, king, or potentate, ever claim- 
 ed so much on earth as the Man of Sin, as the Popes of Rome 
 He is not only styled " Universal Father," " Holy Father," " His 
 Holiness," '-'Sovereign Pontiff," "Supreme Head" of the Church 
 on Earth," ' Pater Familias," " Successor of Peter," " Prince of the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 231 
 
 apostles," "Infallible One," "Vicar of Christ," "Lieutenant of 
 Christ," " Prince of the World ;" but he is styled, still more blasphe- 
 mously, " Lord of Lords," a god on earth, " Lord God the Pope." 
 
 4. He places himself " in the temple of God." This ascertains thfl 
 Man of Sin more specifically than any other attribute or circumstance in 
 the passage. He is no Pagan idolater ; he is no infidel Jew ; he is no 
 author of a new religion ; but he sits in the Church of Jesus Christ 
 God's building God's temple holding the fundamental truths of re- 
 
 igion, as did this community when the Man of Sin invaded the 
 Church ; for, yet, the great fads of Christianity are acknowledged by 
 the Church of Rome, though "made of no effect by her traditions." 
 
 5. He exhibits or " shows himself to be a god." H claims to 
 reign not only for Christ as his vicar, but the homage due to a repre- 
 sentative of God he haughtily appropriates to himself. Such is the 
 prediction of the man of sin ; and who that is conversant with the 
 history of the popes of Rome, from their coronation, standing on the 
 altar in St. Peter's church, receiving the title of God's vicegerent, 
 assuming the honors of the supreme head of the whole church ; pow- 
 er over the angels of heaven, over the inhabitants of Hades, and over 
 the laws and statutes of the bible, can think that Paul exaggerates the 
 picture by saying that this son of -perdition, and man of sin, was to 
 pass himself off, was to "show himself as a God." 
 
 6. He is called THE LAWLESS ONE ; verse 8, " the wicked one." So Da- 
 niel's little horn is represented as " changing (or seeking to change) the 
 times and the laws." Instances of such dispensations and indulgences 
 could be multiplied, ad libitum, demonstrative that such have always 
 been the professions and assumptions of the " Princes of the Jpostles." 
 
 7. But another incident in the history of the decline of the man of 
 sin deserves our attention, and singularly identifies him with the em- 
 pire of the little horn. " Whom the Lord shall consume (or slay) by 
 the spirit of his mouth, and destroy by the brightness of his coming." 
 And of the dominion of the little horn, says Daniel : " They shall 
 consume and destroy it to the end." Paul seems to have quoted the 
 very words of Daniel, and thus most unquestionably identified the 
 man of sin and little horn as designating the same apostacy from 
 Christ and his religion. 
 
 8. In describing the coming of this man of sin, he is compared to 
 the deceptions, assumptions, and approaches of Satan, who has often 
 assumed a divine mission or the power of miracles. So the Roman 
 church has ever pretended to the power of working miracles, and has 
 gained and still retains much power by false signs and lying wonders. 
 
 Of this apostacy, and of the rise and progress of this man of sin, 
 as described by Paul, we may mark his growth and progress in full 
 agreement with the records of authentic history in the following order 
 and style : He was an embryo in Paul's time. (The mystery of in- 
 iquity doth already inwardly work). He was an infant in the time of 
 Victor 1., 195. He was a bold and daring lad in the time of Constan- 
 tine the Great. A sturdy stripling in the days of Leo I., when au- 
 ricular confession came in. He was nineteen years old in the days 
 of Justinian's code ; and a young man full twenty-one, when Boni- 
 face III. received from Phocas the title of Universal Patriarch or 
 Pope, A. D. 606. He was twenty-five when Pepin and Charlemagne 
 gave him political power and glory, A. D. 760: and at full prime, or 
 at thirty-five, when Gregory the Great took the crown from the em-
 
 232 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 peror Henry and gave it to Rudolphus. He had reached his grand cli- 
 macteric in the days of Wickliff, and Luther gave him a mortal thrust, 
 which introduced into his system that chronic consumption under which 
 he has ever since lingered. But it remains for John the apostle, and last 
 prophet of the church, to declare his last agony and final overthrow. 
 
 As we have no lime more than to sketch the naked outline, \ve 
 shall hasten to the consummation, as' respects the Babylon of John 
 so exactly identified with the subject before us. In his apocalyptic 
 developments, 18th chapter, he declares her final doom. My propo- 
 sition carries in it the indication of a monster. She is the $fan of 
 Sin ! Babylon the Great a city, a beast, a woman, a state, a persecu- 
 ting power ; scarlet, purple, drunken u-ith the blood of the saints, ivith 
 the blood of the martyrs of Jesuit ! ! MYSTERY ! By mystery she rose, 
 she reigns ; her mystery of purgatory, transubstantiation, relics, mi- 
 racles, signs, sacraments, and unfathomable doctrines, have given her 
 power : for, says Paul, (2d Thess. ii.) describing the advances of this 
 son of ruin, and lawless one, " His coming is according to the ope- 
 ration of Satan, in all power and lying wonders." Douay Testament. 
 
 Babylon, the ancient capital of Chaldea, great as it was, was but 
 the type. Her antitype is the spiritual city. This city sits upon the 
 seven mountains of the ''Holy Roman Empire," which the heirs of 
 Pepin erected. For thus did they blasphemously designate the 
 new empire erected out of the seven grand electorates of Germany ; 
 the seven heads of that empire which sustained the assumptions of 
 the papal see. 
 
 But we have now to do with her overthrow. The means of her decay 
 are, first, the spirit of the Lord's mouth. The reading, preaching, and 
 circulating of the Bible. The second is the hatred of the ten horns ; "For 
 the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the 
 whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh 
 and burn her with fire." Flesh is the symbol of riches. And riches 
 she has had beyond comparison. It is said, that in two churches in 
 Spain, some fifty years since, there were more gold and silver, in 
 saints, apostles, and angels, than the richest sovereign in Europe was 
 worth. Her real and personal estate has never yet been valued. But 
 the political powers shall get tired of the cupidity and insatiable ap- 
 petite of this monster, and shall plunder her resources and confiscate 
 her estate, as in France and England, and thus shall her ruin com 
 mence. But at the moment when judgment shall be given in favor 
 of the saints of the Most High, when the hour of her destruction 
 has come suddenly and in an instant, as when an angel hurls a mill- 
 stone into the sea, shall Rome with all her glory be swallowed down, 
 and engulphed in immediate and eternal ruin. We do expect in the 
 final catastrophe of Papal Rome a combination and concentration of 
 Almighty wrath. The vials of God's fiercest anger await her. The 
 Plagues of Egypt, Sodom, and Jerusalem are in store for the Son 
 of Perdition. In the battle of Armageddon, blood shall flow for 
 1600 furlongs, to the bits of the horses' bridles. It is remarkable, 
 that this 1600 furlongs make exactly the whole extent of the State of 
 Rome, which the popes have so long held. From the Tiber to the 
 Po is just 200 miles or 1600 furlongs. Still the last act of this ap- 
 palling drama will be short. The artillery of Heaven's vengeance 
 shall burst upon her in a moment ; for Omnipotence has a long con- 
 troversy against her for her evil deeds. I have only time *o add, that
 
 EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 233 
 
 tnings said by Daniel, Paul, and John perfectly harmonize in the 
 su^emiess and completeness of her destruction. However gradual, 
 for a time, the consumption and decay of her strength and glory, she 
 will die a violent death ; for all the witnesses attest that a sudden and 
 overwhelming destruction awaits her. 
 
 But amid the tremendous darkness of this dread hour, the bright 
 and morning star of Israel appears : for as soon as the flying angel, 
 as it flits across the heavens, announces in words of everlasting joy, 
 that the hour of her judgment has come, the angel in his rear, atten- 
 dant on his flight, shouts triumphantly from east to west : " It is fal- 
 len ! It is fallen ! Babylon the great is fallen !" Then shall there be 
 " voices and thunders, and lightnings, and the universal earthquake 
 which shall bring the cities of the Gentiles to the dust." Then will 
 be the time when a voice from heaven exultingly shall say : " Re- 
 joice over her, ye holy apostles and prophets ; for God has avenged 
 you on her ! Then the immense multitude of saints, the martyred 
 millions in heaven shall say: Hallelujah ! Salvation, and glory, and 
 power to the Lord our God : for his judgments are true and righteous : 
 for he has judged the great harlot, who corrupted the earth with her 
 fornication, and he has avenged the blood of his servants shed by her 
 hand ! And a second time they said, Hallelujah ! and the smoke of 
 her torment ascended forever and ever !" 
 
 Then, indeed, shall the kingdoms of the whole earth become the 
 kingdoms of the Lord, and of his anointed. Then the cause, so long 
 oppressed, shall universally triumph : for ages of prosperity and joy 
 are yet to crown the labors of Messiah ; and untold millions, the 
 trophies of his mediation are yet to gladden heaven and earth by their 
 cheerful submission to his authority, who shall then be acknowledged 
 the rightful King of kings and Lord of lords. 
 
 Such a catastrophe is even feared at Rome itself. The popes have 
 uttered it abroad ; they have proclaimed to the world that they felt St. 
 Peter's chair tremble under them ; that the throne of the prince of 
 the apostles now totters to its fall. In dolorous strains they lament in 
 their encyclical letters the prevalence of liberal (with them infidel) 
 principles. Even in Italy and in Spain the sovereign pontiff observes 
 indications of the spirit of the age. Free discussion, the liberty of 
 the press, or even a whisper about free government, in the environs 
 of Rome, grievously afflicts him. It has been said by the most intel- 
 ligent in the internal affairs of Roman Catholic countries, that it 
 would not be the most unexpected event if the present incumbent of 
 the Papal chair should be the last of the popes of Rome. 
 
 Public opinion is fast changing even in those countries, and there 
 is an under-current which, like a subterraneous fire, is liquifying the 
 foundations of the hills and mountains on which this proud super- 
 structure rears its aspiring head. The pope is looking abroad, per- 
 haps to the " mountains of the moon," or to the great valley, as to a 
 wilderness, in which there may be an asylum reared for him in such 
 a contingency as might drive him from the Eternal city. Who knows 
 but that the ecclesiastic politics of Roman Catholic Europe have 
 aided the tide of emigration prospeclively, on the chances that are to 
 decide the fortunes of the hierarchy in the Old World. 
 
 But the destinies of western Rome, the theatre of the prophecies 
 before us, exhaust the symbols of th**": j.iedictions. The fortunes 
 of our country and of the Papacy here, belong to another chapter. 
 U2 30
 
 234 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Whether it shall simultaneously fall in the New world, or shall seek 
 here to recruit its shattered interests, and seek to found a great Ame- 
 rican Roman Catholic hierarchy, is a question of grave import, 
 which it is not my province to examine. 
 
 Such, however, are its origin, its history, and its doom in the Old 
 world, as sketched by the finger of God. And the history of Eu- 
 rope, for twelve hundred and thirty years, proves, beyond a reasonable 
 doubt,i that Daniel, Paul, and John spake as they were moved by the 
 Holy Spirit. 
 
 I cannot sit down without an apology for the rudeness of this great 
 outline. It would require hours to fill up the map which I have laid 
 before you. I have endeavored only to estab ish the grand landmarks, 
 and point out the bearings of prophecy upon this institution. In hopes 
 that my learned opponent will give me an opportunity to fortify the 
 weak points, and to illustrate the obscure, I give place ; having, as 1 
 judge, redeemed the pledge which I tendered in my fourth proposition : 
 for in the history of all time, no person will ever find any one sub- 
 ject in which so many nay, all the grand characteristics of this 
 prophetic tyranny, so clearly, literally, and harmoniously meet as in 
 Papal Rome. On this point I challenge special investigation. [Time 
 expired, plus 9 minutes.] 
 
 Half past 10 o'okck, A. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 Before I take review of my friend's last speech, I wish to complete 
 my previous one. I was speaking on the subject of auricular and pri- 
 vate confession, when J was last up, and endeavoring to prove that it 
 was a practice not contrary to scripture, nor immoral. I have, in proof 
 of this position, quoted authorities from scripture, from the ancient re- 
 cords of the Catholic church, and from the divines and practice of the 
 English church. I now add to them, a quotation from the discipline 
 of the ^Methodist church, edition of 1835, New-York. And, to show 
 that every argument addressed to you by my friend, falls with as great 
 force, nay greater, on Protestants, I will read the following extract, 
 (p. 84.) You will observe, my friends, that I do not arraign the Me- 
 thodists, as immoral, or quote their discipline from insidious motives ; 
 but, to show that our practice is imitated in a way, by which it is nol 
 improved, but liable to great abuse ; and that every thing that is said 
 against us, may be said against others. 
 
 Section III. "Of the Band Societies. " Two, three or four true believers, who 
 have confided in each other, form a band. Only it is to be observed, that in one of 
 these bands, all must be men, or all women ; and all married or all unmarried." p. 83. 
 ' Rules of the Band Societies." "The design of our meeting is to obey that 
 command of God, Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, 
 that ve may be healed." James, v. 16. 
 
 " Some of the questions proposed to one, before he is admitted among us, may 
 oe to this effect." p. 84. " 1. Have you the forgiveness of your sins? (a pretty 
 bard question, my- friends to answer, when the scripture assures us, Eccles. 
 ix. 1, " Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred;" in other 
 words, whether he hath, or hath not, forgiveness of his sins.) 5. Has no sin, 
 inward or outward, dominion over you? (What scrutiny!) 6. Do you desire 
 to be told of your faults? 7. Do you desire to be told of all your faults, and 
 that plain ana home? 8. Do you desire that every one of us should tell you 
 from time to time, whatsoever is in our heart, concerninsr vou? 9. Consider! 
 Do you desire we should tell you whatsoever we think, whatsoever we fear, 
 whatsoever we hear concerning you? 10. Do you des're that in doing this, we 
 S.hould come as close as possible, that we should cut to the quick, aud search
 
 HOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 235 
 
 Jour hcirt to the bottom? 11. Is it your desire and design to be on this and 
 all other occasions, entirely open, so as to speak without disguise, and without 
 reserve? 53= Any of the preceding questions maybe asked as often as occa* 
 sion requires: the four following at every meeting. 85. 1. What known gins 
 have you committed since our last meeting-? 2. What particular temptations 
 have you met with? 3. How were you delivered? 4. Whathaveyou thougnt, 
 said, or done, of which you doubt whether it be sin, or not?" 
 
 They must reveal the whole soul and body, inward and outward 
 sins; and I defy my friend to quote any thing, even from Smith's 
 Liguori, to surpass that. In the Catholic practice, the confession is 
 to the priest alone ; who is bound by holy vows, before God and man, 
 not to abuse his trust ; and it is unheard of, that a priest has ever vio- 
 lated his oath, by divulging the secrets confided to his ear, as the 
 minister of the sacrament. But tell such secrets to one woman, and, 
 as the witty Frenchman said, when asked why he began a deed with 
 the words, " Know one woman," &c. : " Why, if one woman knows 
 it, it is equivalent to " all men," for they will all know it soon enough 
 from her." (a laugh.) I suspect, that my opponent also suspects by 
 this time, that he has got into a pretty bad^fcr. 1 shall be amused to 
 see how he will eel out of the noose. 
 
 Now, my friends, I have advanced Protestant testimony, to show, 
 either that the champion of Protestantism has trodden most awfully 
 upon Protestants' toes, or to prove that the Catholic practice of con- 
 fession is not immoral. Did time permit, I might cite the most con- 
 vincing testimony, from the fathers of the reformation, and from the 
 German princes, to show, that when the restraints of the confessional 
 were removed, the barriers of virtue seemed to be broken down. I do 
 not choose to use their testimony before this audience. It is suffi- 
 ciently well known, and it follows from it, that my opponent ought 
 not to speak ill of confession ; for it has every where proved itself to 
 be a useful practice, and one beneficial to society. It has been one of 
 the most remarkable aids to justice, in cases which legal process could 
 not reach. To show this, I will relate an anecdote. Some one, in 
 New-York, stole a quantity of silver spoons, and, having confessed 
 the crime to the priest, was told, that neither confession nor absolution 
 could be of any avail, without restitution of the ill-gotten goods. Res- 
 titution was accordingly made. Here is a fine practical comment on 
 the subject. The police, having heard of the affair, insisted that the 
 priest should disclose the name of the thief, and wished to compel htm 
 to do so, to promote thereby, as they supposed they should do, the 
 cause of justice. The priest, of course, refused to commit a flagrant 
 breach of trust, and modestly contended, that the cause of justice was 
 much more effectually promoted, by the course which a priest in such 
 case pursued. Restitution had been made : was not this enough ] 
 The police subpoenaed him to appear before the mayor of New-York, 
 the celebrated De Witt Clinton, who decided that the priest could not 
 be compelled to give up the name. The lawyer employed by the 
 priest, was Mr. Sampson, a Protestant, and an ornament to the bar. 
 He reported the trial. Before reading his speech, touching on this 
 very topic of the morality or immorality of auricular confession, hear 
 the admirable, but too brief preface, he has prefixed to the volume. I 
 am sure, every high-minded and honorable man here, whether Pro- 
 testant or Catholic, will subscribe cheerfully to his sentiments. " The 
 general satisfaction given to every religious denomination, by the de-
 
 236 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ctsion of this interesting question, is well calculated to dissipate anti- 
 quated prejudices and religious jealousies; and the reporter feels no 
 common satisfaction in making it public. When that adjudication 
 shall be compared with the baneful statutes and judgments in Europe, 
 upon similar subjects, the superior equity and wisdom of American 
 jurisprudence, and civil probity, will be felt; and it cannot fail to be 
 well received by the enlightened and virtuous of every community, 
 and will constitute a document of history, precious and instructive to 
 the present and future generations." Having produced before the 
 court a book called, " The Papist misrepresented, and truly repre- 
 sented," and read the misrepresentation first, he continued : 
 
 "The papist truly represented, believes it damnable in any religion to make 
 gods of men. However he firmly holds, that when Christ speaking to his apos- 
 tles said, John xx. 22, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whose si/is you shall for- 
 give, they are forgiven; and whose sins yon shall retain, they are retained;" 
 he gave them, and their successors, the bishops and priest* of the Catholic 
 church, authority to absolve any truly penitent sinner from his sins. And God 
 having thus given them the ministry of reconciliation, and made them Chrisfl 
 legates, 2 Cor. v. 18, 19, 20, Christ's ministers and the dispensers of the 
 mysteries of Christ, 1 Cor. iv. and given them power that whatsoever they 
 loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven, Matt, xviii. 18, he undoubtedly be- 
 lieves, that whotoever comes to them, making a sincere and humble confession 
 of his sins, with a true repentance and a firm purpose of amendment, and a 
 hearty resolution of turning from his evil ways, may from them receive absolu- 
 tion, by the authority given them from heaven, and no doubt but God ratines 
 above the sentence pronounced in that tribunal ; loosing in heaven whatsoever 
 is thus loosed by them on earth. And that, whosoever comes without the due 
 preparation, without a repentance from the bottom of his heart, and real inten- 
 tion of forsaking his sins, receives no benefit by the absolution; but adds sin to 
 sin, by a high contempt of God's mercy, and abuse of his sacraments." 
 
 No wonder then, this latter being the true character of confession, if the bit- 
 terest enemies of the Catholic faith have still respected it; and that discerning 
 minds have acknowledged the many benefits society might practically reap from 
 it; abstracted from its religious character. It has, I dare say, been oftenet 
 attacked by sarcasm than by good sense. The gentleman who argued against 
 us, has respected himself too much to employ that weapon, and I believe he has 
 aid all that good sense could urg-e against it, which we take in very good part. 
 
 But while this ordinance has been openly exposed to scotf and ridicule, its 
 excellence has been concealed by the very secrecy it enjoins. If it led to licen- 
 tiousness or danger, that licentiousness, or that danger, would have come to 
 light, and there would be tongues enough to tell it. Whilst on the other hand 
 its utility can never be proved by instances, because it cannot be shown how 
 many have been saved by it: how many of the young of both sexes, have been 
 in the most critical juncture of their lives, admonished from the commission of 
 ome fatal crime, that would have brought the parents' hoary hairs with sorrow 
 to the grave. These are secrets that cannot be revealed. 
 
 Since however, the avenues that lead to vice are many and alluring, is it not 
 well that some one should be open to the repenting sinner, where tne fear of 
 punishment and of the world's scorn, may not deter the yet wavering convert? 
 If the road to destruction, is easy and smooth, sifacilis 'descensus averni, may 
 it not consist with wisdom and policy, that there be one silent, secret path, where 
 the doubting penitent may be invited to turn aside, and escape the throng that 
 hurries him along? Some retreat, where, as in the bosom of a holy hermit, 
 within the shade of innocence and peace, the pilgrim of this checquered life, 
 may draw new inspirations of virtue and repose. 
 
 If the thousand ways of error, are tricked with flowers, is it so wrong, that 
 somewhere there should be a sure and gentle friend, who has no interest to be- 
 tray, no care, but that of ministerine: to the incipient cure? The syren songs and 
 blandishments of pleasure, may lea J the young and tender heart astray, and the 
 repulsive frown Of stern authority, forbid return. One step then gained or lost, 
 is victor)- or death. Let me then ask you that are parents, which would you 
 prefer, that the child of your hopes should pursue the course of ruin, and con-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 237 
 
 tinue with the companions of debauch and crime, or t-irn to the confessional, 
 where if compunction could once bring him, one gentle word, one well timed 
 admonition, one friendly turn by the hand, might save your child irom ruin, and 
 your heart from unavailing sorrow? And if the hardened sinner, the murderer, 
 the robber, or conspirator, can once be brought to bow his stubborn spirit, and 
 kneel before his frail fellow man, invite him to pronounce a penance suited to 
 his crimes, arid seek salvation through a full repentance, there is more gained, 
 than by the bloodiest spectacle of terror, than though his mangled limbs were 
 broken on the wheel, his body gibbeted or given to the fowls of the air. If 
 these reflections have any weight at all; if this picture be but true, in any part, 
 better forbear and leave things as they are, than too rashly sacrifice to jealous 
 doubts, or shallow ridicule, a"n ordinance sanctioned by antiquity and founded 
 on experience of man's nature. For if it were possible for even faith, that re 
 moves mountains, as they say, to alter this, and with it to abolish the whole 
 fabric, of which it is a vital part, what next would follow? Hundreds of millions 
 of Christians would be set adrift from all religious fastening! Would it be better 
 to have so many atheists, than so many Christians .' Or if not, what church is fit- 
 ted to receive into its bosom, this great majority of all the Christian world? Is 
 it determined whether they shall become Jews or Philanthropists, Chinese or 
 Mahommedans, Lutherans, or Calvinists, Baptists or Brownists, Materialists, 
 Universalists or Destructionists; Arians, Trinitarians, Presbyterians, Baxterians, 
 Sabbatarian*, Millennarians, Moravians, Antinomians or Sandemanians, Jumpers, 
 or Diinkei'-<, Shakers or Quakers, Burgers, Kirkers, Independents, Covenanters. 
 Puritans, Elutchisonians, Johnsonians, or Muggletonians. I doubt not that in 
 every sect that I have named, there are good men, and if there be, I trust they 
 will find mercy, but chiefly so as they are charitable, each to his neighbor. And 
 why should they be otherwise? The gospel enjoins it; the constitution ordains 
 it. Intolerance in this country could proceed from nothing but a diseased affec- 
 tion of the pia mater, or the spleen." Catholic Question in America, p. 87. 
 
 I will now dismiss the question of confession. There are many things 
 to which I should like to give answers, in set speeches ; but, whoever 
 reads this controversy, must not suppose that because I have not time 
 to answer every accusation at length, there is no answer to them. I 
 catch all I can of what my friend hurriedly utters ; for I cannot hear 
 him, for his occasional hoarseness of voice. 
 
 When my worthy opponent stated, in his long-blazoned proposition, 
 " She is the man of sin," I imagined that he meant no more than the 
 exciting of an innocuous laugh at the expense of" MOTHER CHURCH," 
 by making a man of her in her old age. How great, then, has been 
 my surprise, to see him, all sail set, dash headlong upon this rock of 
 commentators, the "infames scopulos imerpretum," around which are 
 scattered in profusion, the wrecks of so many learned lucubrations, for 
 the last 1800 years ! Catholics and Protestants, churchmen and lay- 
 men, ancients and moderns, Papias and Newton, and last, not least, 
 Mr. Alexander Campbell, have all egregiously foundered upon this 
 hidden shoal of controversy. 
 
 No wonder, the learned Protestant, Scaliger, observed that Calvin 
 was wise, in not writing upon the Apocalypse. " Sapuit Calvinus, quia 
 in Jlpocalypsin non scripsit /" Had we a congregation of scary old 
 women, instead of intelligent and sensible men, around us, I should 
 expect to be looked at by many a prying eye, confident of seeing ont,, 
 at least of the ten horns, sprouting, or already strong, full-grown, and 
 threateningly prominent from my- forehead. But as I address reaso- 
 ners. not visionaries, nor rhapsodists, nor fanatics, I must reason, 
 leaving to my fanciful friend, the regions of imagination, into which 
 he has flown, far above my reach. 1 would not fetch him too hastily 
 down, but by sending a few arguments, at respectful distances after 
 one another to plu-.k a feather now, and a feather then from his wings, 
 
 '
 
 238 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 we may fetch him safely, and slowly, and with dignity back again to 
 the apprehension of logic, and common sense. These are the wea- 
 pons with which I, in the first place, proceed to grapple with the 
 gentleman. 
 
 1st. Is he an infallible? He pretends not, verily, to be such. 
 Then what is all his fanciful theory worth ] It is based on reason and 
 history, is it? Well but Hugo Grotius, and Hammond, and Dr. 
 Herbert Thorndike, not to mention fifty others, of different religious 
 denominations, but all Protestants, and at least as good biblical and 
 classical scholars, as my learned antagonist, have ridiculed the notion 
 of calling the pope of Rome Antichrist ! If only one learned nnd 
 pious Protestant were pitted against my friend, I would be even 
 with him, or more than even. How much superior in this argument, 
 when I have so many wise men on my side, while all the monoma- 
 niacs are on his ? " Let them not lead people by the nose" says Thorn- 
 dike, " to believe they can prove their supposition that the pope is anti- 
 christ, and the Papists, Idolaters, when they cannot " Thus the most 
 learned and orthodox Protestant divines cannot subscribe to they are, 
 on the contrary, ashamed of this interpretation of my learned opponent, 
 
 2nd. Those Protestants, who agree with him in calling the pope, 
 antichrist, disagree as to the particular pope to be so called, and still 
 more, as to the time when the downfall of Babylon was to have taken 
 place, or is to take place as in the case of the Jewish testimony 
 against Jesus Christ, there is no agreement among the witnesses. 
 JBraunbom confidently asserts that the popish antichrist was born in 
 the year 86 ; that he grew to his full size in 376 ; that he was at his 
 greatest strength in 636; that he began to decline in 1086; that he 
 would die in 1640 ; and that the world would end in 1711. (Bayle Art. 
 Braunbom) bishop Newton, Napper, Fleming, Beza, Melancthon, Bui- 
 linger, had all their peculiar and conflicting theories, and none of them, 
 we may safely assert, has found the Apocalyptic key. Turien, Alix and 
 Kelt, are in nothing more wise, and equally unsuccessful. 
 
 3d. The scripture is opposed to him. For St. John says, 1st Ep. 
 ch. 2. v. 22. " That the liar who denie-th Jesus to be the Christ is 
 antichrist." Now this, the pope has never done ; but, on the con- 
 trary, he contends earnestly for the faith in the divinity of Christ, once 
 delivered to the saints. 
 
 4th. Church history is opposed to him. For it shews, at every 
 page, how the pope sent missionaries into every part of the world 
 even the most distant, to gather barbarous nations into the fold ot 
 Christ, to preach to them salvation through his blood. Now accord- 
 ing to the rule of the Savior, " a kingdom, divided against itself, 
 cannot stand." And it is unheard of among all the signs of the anti- 
 christ, that he was to be the strenuous, and for many centuries, the 
 only apostle of the true Christ, the Savior. Even the worst pope, 
 was true to doctrine, and made the beams of the sun of righteousness, 
 of pure, Christian faith, gild the villages of Tartary and cheer the 
 roving horde > in its deserts. 
 
 5th. My friend is opposed to himself; for he said to day, that the 
 eyes of the little horn signified wisdom and knowledge. Now as the 
 Catholic church is the mother of ignorance, the victim of blind and 
 ridiculous superstitions, the cause of all the obscurity of the dark 
 ages, she cann t be the antichrist. Again its mouth indicated elo-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 239 
 
 quence, was eloquent. Then my opponent is, himself, the beast, foi 
 his speech was truly eloquent. Indeed the ingenuity with which he 
 dressed up even the old story of " she is fallen, the mighty Babylon, 
 the great harlot, which corrupted the earth Allelujah, Allelujah !" 
 is proof positive that he would, by his command of language, deceive, if 
 possible, even the elect, into the belief, that he had succeeded, where 
 so many had failed, in breaking the seal of the mysterious volume. 
 He has clearly put the lion in a net, and not so much as a mouse 
 durst approach, to gnaw a hole, to let him out. 
 
 6th. He is opposed to Catholics. For they have been wont to ap- 
 ply the words of St. John, just before he speaks of the antichrist, to 
 the Protestant sects, which, they conceive, are fast hastening into the 
 arms of the Unitarians, who deny the divinity of Christ. " They 
 went, out from us ; but they were not of us ; for if they had been of 
 us, they would, no doubt, have remained with us, but that they may 
 be manifest that they are not all of us." I have already said some- 
 thing of the " monster," not merely " beast," but " monster," which 
 my friend attempted, like Prometheus, to form and steal fire from 
 heaven to animate, that he might call it " Apostolic Protestantism." 
 This, in our estimation, may be found to possess, some, at least, of 
 the characteristics of the Apocalyptic beast. But we should beg leave 
 to baptize it " Polypos" or " Legion." We could very satisfac- 
 torily shew that it has made war on the saints, and devoured them 
 by thousands, not to say millions ; that a portion of the beast so detains, 
 even now, when light from heaven is breaking, MILLIONS of the saints, 
 of those who for the Confession of Jesus Christ and for conscience 
 sake are reduced to a galling servitude, a poverty, and a degradation, 
 far worse than the lot of the negro, of the southern rice-fields. 
 
 My friend began by observing that symbolical language gives great 
 scope for the imagination. It sets us adrift upon a sea of speculation. 
 Is he ready to embark upon that sea ? Are his sails trimmed ? Is his 
 compass ready ? If the sad experience, to which I have alluded, has 
 not disinclined him to the voyage, I assure him that he will find it to 
 eventuate like that of the three wise men of Gotham, whom our illus- 
 trious compatriot Washington Irving, sent to sea in a bowl. We may 
 drift with every wind, and current, through a thousand perils, on this 
 wide ocean of imagination. But, my friends, what has imagination to 
 do with this question ?. She is a very good slave, but a very bad mis- 
 tress. Give me full scope with your imagination and 1 can prove to 
 you any thing and every thing, until we all are like the novel and ro- 
 mance writers of the present day "z'n fancy ripe, in reason rotten. 11 
 Novels and romances are, confessedly, works of fiction. They are not 
 expected to contain reason, and therefore they escape censure. But 
 when men pretend to pass off their day-dreams for the oracles of Hea 
 ven, they should remember the law of Deuteronomy, xiv. 5. " the.* the 
 Prophet and forger of dreams shall be slain," and it tney tear not even 
 the fate of the false seer, at least, they should apprehend the lash ol 
 criticism and ridicule. I know in this good city, a respectable dame, 
 who is not a Catholic, but who has written a ream of paper on the 
 Apocalyptic visions. I suggest to my friend that he may possibly ga 
 ther additional light on the subject, by comparing notes with her. She 
 has made it the study of years, and on one occasion, as I am credibly 
 informed, under the influence of the text's inspiration, she came into
 
 240 DEBA.TE ON THE 
 
 church, with the sun, moon, and stars pictured upon her dress, and 
 trailing beneath her feet as she solemnly moved through the aisle 
 You, sir, may have surpassed this lady in eloquence, though of that 1 
 am not quite sure, but, certainly, she was a match for you, in imagina- 
 tion. My friend observed that the sun would go down, it would take 
 him a whde day, to shew the audience the rationale of the conceit with 
 which he has favored us I could not help assenting to the gentle- 
 man's, remark, and saying, in my mind, that it was even so nay, that 
 it would take 3fi5 days, before he could shew that there was anything 
 in it that was reasonable. 
 
 Southey observes that the " ROMISH CHURCH WAS, in the worst of 
 times, HOWEVER DEFILED, the SALT OF THE EARTH, THE SOLE CONSERVA- 
 TIVE PRINCIPLE, BY WHICH EUROPE WAS SAVED FROM THE LOWEST AND 
 
 MOST BRUTAL BARBARISM ;" and yet in the very face of this reluctant 
 tribute, by a first-rate Protestant historian, Mr. Campbell labors 
 to demonstrate that this very church was Anti-Christ ! He places 
 her on the Mediterranean, although it is a weary ride before you reach 
 her splendid domes and everlasting maugre the liquifying hills, on 
 which she sits, in humble, if in queenly majesty. The Tiber, like its 
 namesake in the district, instead of being called a sea, may well be 
 called a " Goose creek" now. 
 
 My friend's Lexicography, Iconisms and Synchronisms, must have 
 all passed for argument strong as the rock of Gibraltar, in his own 
 opinion. It is unanswered and unanswerable. He says that God al- 
 ways by a beast, means some monster or other. Then Jesus Christ 
 must be ' some monster or other,' for what is the cry of Heaven's Ju- 
 bilee at the end of all things ? " Behold the l Lion' of ihe tribe of Judah 
 hath prevailed;" and again " Worthy was the Lamb that was slain," 
 &c. &c. My friend would mtike a strange havoc with the language 
 and imagery of heaven a curious monster of a Lamb and a Lion, than 
 which notwithstanding all he has said, I will force him to confess that 
 there can be nothing, as there is nothing, more beautiful than this en- 
 tire passage. The Evangelists are represented in the vision of Eze- 
 kiel as Beasts and Birds of prey. Are they too Anti-Christs 1 ? Eng- 
 land has chosen the Rampant and Roaring Lion for her emblem. My 
 friend has praised and dispraised her. What portion of Anti-Christ, 
 of the man of sin, is she? She has persecuted and I might with far 
 more truth say to her, what the martyred Robert Emmett said to Lord 
 Norbury, " If all the innocent blood your ladyship has shed could be col' 
 lected into one great reservoir, your Ladyship might swim in it" My 
 friend spoke of Elizabeth's long life. He did not say of how many 
 years she abridged the life of the "Fair Queen of Scots." Politically, 
 intellectually, and morally, Rome, or if you will, the papacy was the 
 Savior of Europe, as all historians agree. How, then, could she be 
 the 'Beast?' It is preposterous. Why all this has been prophesied 
 and falsified, and prophesied and falsified again. Forty, or fifty years 
 ago, as my venerable friend there (Rev. Mr. Badin, the first priest or- 
 dained in the United States) can inform you, almanacs were published 
 in Kentucky, stating the precise day and minute, when the Hallelujah 
 was to be intoned for the Downfall of Babylon ! The day has passed, 
 and what of it? I have got a book here, which makes Napoleon Bo- 
 naparte the man of sin. Born on an Island, in the Mediterranean. 
 Corsica, deriving his power from the French Revolution, which affect-
 
 KOMAJV CATHOLIC RELIGION. 241 
 
 rd to crush Christianity, 1'infame; which substituted decadi for Sa 
 oath ; profaned temples: adored a vile woman in the temple of God, 
 immolated and expatriated thousands upon thousands of priests, and 
 hoped that the last of kings might be strangled with the viscera of the 
 last of priests : plucked Pius VII. from the chair of St. Peter, drag- 
 ged the saints, the venerable monks by their beards^ from the horns of 
 the altar, &c. &c. The Apocalypse is a sealed book, which God has 
 not vouchsafed to unfold to man. Better practise what we do know, 
 with certainty, of his adorable will, rather than blaspheme what we do 
 not understand. Meanwhile, if ever there was made a plausible appli- 
 cation of this mysterious prophecy, behold it in the rise, progress, and 
 rrest of Mahommedanism. The sea, or lake, the year 666, the war 
 on Christ and the saints; the sword and Koran; the watch-word BE- 
 LIEVE OR DIE, the conspiracy of Christendom during the crusades tr. 
 check its power, the gloriously disastrous battle of Lepanto, the pre- 
 sent crippled, but still formidable state of Islamism, all pictured so 
 vividly as almost to convince us that we have surely discovered the 
 object of the prediction. Let us read from Waddington. I shall make 
 a few brief pauses which you will fill up by appropriate reflections. 
 How few have understood the appalling dangers that this civil and 
 religious despotism of the IMPOSTOR OF MECCA, threatened, during so 
 many ages, to Christianity and the world ! 
 
 " The seventh century was marked by the birth of a new and resolute adver- 
 sary, who began his career with the most stupendous triumphs, who has torn 
 from us the possession of half the world, and who retains his conquests even to 
 this moment. Mahomet was born about the year 570; we are ignorant of the pre- 
 cise period of the nativity of that man who wrought the most extraordinary re- 
 volution in the affairs of this globe, which the agency of any being merely hu- 
 man has ever yet accomplished. His pretended mission did not commence till 
 he was about forty years old, nd the date of his celebrated flight from Mecca, 
 the Hedjirah, or era of Mahometan nations, is 622, A. D. The remainder of hfs 
 life was spent in establishing his religion and his authority in his native land, Ara- 
 bia; and the sword with which he finally completed that purpose, he bequeathed, 
 for the universal propagation of both, to his followers. His commission was 
 lealouslv executed; and, in less than a century after his death, his faith wa* un- 
 interruptedly extended by a chain of nations from India to the Atlantic. 
 
 The fate of Persia was decided by the battle of Cadesia, in 636. In Syria. 
 Damascus had already fallen, and after the sanguinary conflict of Yermuk, whew 
 the Saracens for the nrst time encountered and ovtrthrew a Christian enemy the 
 conquerors instantly proceeded to the reduction of Jerusalem; that grand" reli- 
 gious triumph they obtained in 637. In the year following" Aleppo and Anti- 
 och fell into their hands, which completed the conquest- of Syria. Thence they 
 proceeded northward as far as the shores of the Euxine and the neighborhood of 
 Constantinople. 
 
 The invasion of Egypt took place in 638, and within the space of three years, 
 the whole of that populous province was in possession of the infidels. Al'exan- 
 clria-was the. last city which fell; and in somewhat more than a century after the 
 expulsion of philosophy from Europe by a Christian legislator, the schools of 
 Africa were closed in their turn by the arms of an unlettered Mahometan. 
 
 The success of the Saracens was not inconsiderably promoted by the religion! 
 dissentions of their Christian adversaries. A vast number of heretics who had 
 been oppressed and stigmatized by edicts and councils were scattered over the 
 surface of Asia; and these were contented to receive a foreign master, of whose 
 principles they were still ignorant, in the place of a tyrant whose injustice they 
 had experienced. But in Egypt, especially, the whole mass of the native popula- 
 tion was uniortiiiiately involved in the Jacobite heresy; and few at that time 
 were found, except the resident Greeks, who adhered to the doctrines of the 
 church. The followers of Eutvches formed an immediate alliance with the sol- 
 diers of Mahomet against a Catholic prince; and they considered that there wag 
 nothing unnatural in that act, since they hoped to secure for themselves, under I
 
 242 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Mahometan, tfie toleration which had been refused by an orthodox government 
 We should remark, however, that this hope, the pretext of their desertion, wa: 
 with many the suggestion of their raalice: that beside* the recollection of wrongs 
 and the desire to escape or revenge them, they were inflamed as furiously at 
 their persecutors by that narrow sectarian spirit, which is commonly excited 
 most keenly where tfie differences are most trifling; and which, while it oxagge 
 rated the lines that separated them from their fellow Christians^ blinded them t< 
 the broad gulf which divided all alike from the infidel. 
 
 From Egypt, the conquerors rushed along the northern shore of Africa; an* 
 though their progress in that direction was interrupted by the domestic itissen- 
 lions of the prophet's family, even more than by the occasional vigor of th 
 Christians, they were in possession of Carthage before the ed of the seventl 
 century. Thence they proceeded westward,, and after encountering sotae oppo> 
 sition from the native Aloors, little either from the Greek or Vandal master* ot 
 the country, they completed their conquests in the year 709. 
 
 Hitherto the Mahometans had gained no footing in Europe; and it may seen* 
 strange that the most western of its provinces should have been that which wa 
 first exposed to their occupation. But the vicinity of Spain to their latest COD 
 quests,, and the factious dissentions of its nobility, gave them an early opporti> 
 nity to attempt the subjugation of that country. Their success was almost unu- 
 sually rapid. In 711 they overthrew the Gothic monarchy by the victory of 
 Xeres;and the two following years were sufficient to secure their dominion OTBF 
 the greatest part of the peninsula. 
 
 The waters of this torrent were destined ta proceed still a little further. Ten 
 years after the battle ofXeres, the Saracens crossed the Pyrenees and overran 
 with little opposition the southwestern provinces of France "the vineyards of 
 Gascony ana the city Bonrdeaux were possessed by the sovereign oi" Damas- 
 cus and Samarcand; and the south of France, from the moulh of the Garonne to 
 that of the Rhone, assumed the manners and religion of Arabia.' Still dissatisfied 
 with those ample limits, or impatient of any limit, these chiFdren of the desert 
 again uwrched forward into the centre of the kingdom. They were encamped 
 between Tonrs and Poib*iers, when Charles Martef, the mayor, or duke of the 
 Franks, encountered them. It is too much to assert that the fate of ' irrstianity 
 depended upon the result of the battle which followed; but if victr / had de- 
 clared for the Saracens, it would probably have secnred to them in France the 
 same extent, perhaps the same duration, of authority which they possessed IB 
 Spain. Next they would have carried the horrors of war and Islamfsm into Ger- 
 many or Britain; but there,other fields must have been fought, against nations of 
 warriors as brave as the Franks, by an invader who was becoming fess power- 
 ful and even fess enthusiastic, as he advanced farther from the head of hrs resour- 
 ces and his faith." Wadding-ton's Church Hist. pg- 135. N ew York edit. T835. 
 
 This Is the tyranny from which the pope has saved us, and for it 
 civilization and religion owe him a debt which they will never be 
 able to repay. 
 
 My opponent ran a parallel between pagan and Catholic Rome, 
 Does he not know that the pagan religion borrowed many of its es- 
 sential rites, and not a few of its forms, from the indistinct knowl- 
 edge of a primary revelation made to Adam and to (he patriarchs- 
 and afterwards from the written law ? And might I not run a more 
 perfect parallel between the Catholic and the Jewish institutions, 
 while the latter was DIVINE ? The Catholics have a Pontifex Maxi 
 mus, or High Priest; so had the Jews. The Catholics have a church 
 to guide the people ; the Jews had a synagogue for the same purpose. 
 The Catholics have a famous temple, to whose doctrine and worship 
 all must conform ; so had theJe-ws. The Catholic pontiff enjoys some 
 temporal power; so did the Jewish pontiff. The Catholic pontiff sprin- 
 kles holy water on the people; the Jewish pontiff sprinkled them with 
 the blood of a heifer, that was slain. The Catholic say;--, whtn re- 
 minded by the lustral water, emblematical of the blood of Christ, of 
 the power and mercy which can cleanse the stains of the conscience, 
 "Thou shall sr -inkle me, O Lord, with hyssop, and I shall be clean*-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 243 
 
 ed , thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow." Da- 
 vid also said, "Thou shalt sprinkle me, Lord, with hyssop, and I 
 shall be cleansed ; thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter 
 than snow." The Catholics have nuns ; so had the Jews nuns, like 
 the prophetess Ann, who for "/our score and four years departed not 
 from the temple, by fastings and prayers during night and day." Luke, 
 xi. 36, 37. It is thus that his parallel crumbles ! Lateinos is not 
 the name of the Catholic church. The title that the pope assumes is 
 " scrvus servorum Deif servant of the servants of God. The name 
 of Luther, Dioclesian, Julian, of the true God, himself, could be made 
 to tally with the numbers 666 see Robinson's Calmet, p. 71. I 
 could take letters out of the name of ALEXANDER CAMPBELL to mean 
 the same thing. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. If you can, I will give up the argument. (A 
 laugh). 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. What language must it be ? Hebrew, Syriac, 
 Greek, Latin or English? No matter. E is in some languages 
 300 L is 50. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. You have not yet learned the numeral alphabet. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. I cannot make the sum RIGHT OFF, but have a 
 little patience with me and I will pay you all. (A laugh. The au- 
 dience having composed themselves at the request of the Moderators, 
 Bishop PURCELL proceeded.) Thus, you see, my friends, the name of 
 my friend helps us ^n this matter, for it is the name of a man, and the 
 name of a beast, too, with a hunch on its back, when we can find the 
 lacking numerals to decipher him. He has made a certain admission, 
 after having denied it all the week, that the apostles founded the see 
 of Rome. This shows that the truth will prevail, and that my friend 
 will laugh in his sleeve at you, if you believe all his fanciful and ro- 
 mancing conjectures about the man of sin. Again another contra- 
 diction. If all that blood is to be shed, in the exarchate of Raven 
 na, we are here, in Ohio, and safe enough from the danger under oui 
 happy constitution. We need have no fear of being crushed beneath 
 the fragments of that crazy and tottering chair, the pope is sitting in 
 so uneasily ; the very rumblings of the vdcanic hills will die, and 
 their last echoes be inaudible on this side of the Atlantic, and as 
 the Apocalyptic magician has pointed his wand, to the dilapidated 
 jaws of the Beast, the conclusion is plain, that, as he has lost all hit 
 teeth, he can'/ bite ! we need not be afraid of him. 
 
 We are told the pope suffers himself to be adored, and calls him- 
 self God. So far from this, we have seen how he humbles himself be- 
 fore the altar, how he prays the humblest of the saints to pray for him 
 to God, and how he has had a prayer inscribed in our church liturgy, 
 whereby we ask of God to preserve him from all evil, especially from 
 the worst of all evils, sin. Does this look like exalting himself above 
 every thing that is called God 1 The present pope is said to be one 
 of the best of men. The only faults alleged against him are that he gives 
 employment to a large number of poor tradesmen, rebuilding the 
 burned church of St. Paul and that he fakes snuff somewhat profuse- 
 ly. I wish every one here had as little to answer for. 
 
 Much has been said about the gold and silver of the Vatican. My 
 friend. I am sure, knows that money is a necessary evil. If we all had 
 a little more of it, we might purchase heaven with the mammon of ini- 
 quity; but the pope is now poor. If I am rightly informed, his tie*
 
 2-1-1 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 sury is drained. He has fortunately, or unfortunately, lost this mark 
 of the beast, if it be one. But my worthy opponent has overlooked 
 this remarkable fact. Judea abounded in gold ; St. Peter's, in Rome, 
 was never covered all over, like the temple of Jerusalem, with plates 
 of gold. When Titus besieged Jerusalem, the Jews swallowed their 
 gold to hide it from their rapacious conquerors and this was made a 
 new incident in the dreadful vengeance of heaven upon that deicidal 
 people, for the soldiers, in quest of gold, ripped open the bodies of 
 the ill-fated victims whom famine, or the arrow, had precipitated from 
 the ramparts. After the sacking of Jerusalem, so great was the quan- 
 tity of gold obtained in it, that gold fell, in sterling value, throughou 
 the Roman empire. This would prove, that Jerusalem was the beast. 
 How vain are all the gentleman's eloquent remarks. Not one of these 
 marks is peculiar to Rome, while many of them are not applicable to 
 her at a'l. I will say nothing about the millstone ; it went to the 
 bottom, and so did the gentleman's argument. 
 
 My friends, I have one or two arguments to borrow from a very dis- 
 tinguished Catholic writer, Dr. Lingard, author of the history of Eng- 
 land. We shall see whether my friend has any of the symptoms of 
 mania here so graphically described. 
 
 " During the long- lapse of more than fifteen centuries, the visions of the apos- 
 tle St. John had been enveloped in the thickest obscurity. At the era of the re- 
 formation, a strong ray of apocalyptic light dissipated the clouds which popery 
 had raised: and since that periou every old woman, of either gender, has been 
 able to unravel with ease the web of mystery, and to reveal to the world the 
 true meaning of the book of Revelations. From the days of Luther to the pres- 
 ent, we have possessed a numerous and uninterrupted succession of translators, 
 lecturers, expositors, and annotators, who may truly be said to have seen vis- 
 ions, and to have dreamed dreams; and, lest by some mishap the pious race 
 should become extinct, Bishop Warburton has left a fund for the support or the 
 reward of the more fiery among its members.* I may admire his zeal, but not 
 his wisdom. He probably did not see that he was thus endeavoring to diffuse 
 and perpetuate an alarming species of intellectual disease, which, for the sake 
 of distinction, I shall beg leave to call the apocalyptic mania. It has not, indeed, 
 been hitherto classed in any svstem of nosology; but it is not on that account 
 less real, or less general ; and, I trust, I shall confer a benefit on the public by 
 proceeding to point out the origin, and to describe the symptoms of this the- 
 ological malady. 
 
 When " the "magnanimous fathers of the reformation" broke from the com- 
 munion of the Catholic church, they found itconvenient to justify their schism, 
 
 by pleading that the Pope was Antichrist, and Rome the scarlet w of 
 
 Babylon. This doctrine, while it inflamed the bigotry, flattered the spiritual 
 pride of their disciples; with conscious superiority of birth, they sought in the 
 apocalypse for proof of the ignominious descent of their opponents, and their 
 sacrilegious familiarity with the mysterious volume, quickly produced the 
 disease, which is the -subject of the present observations. Its progress was 
 rapid. It soon pervaded every department in life: but its most distinguish 
 ed victims were, and still are, chosen from among those churchmen, who. 
 from the instructions of the nursery or the university, have imbibed a lively 
 dread of the horrors of popery. The mania first manifests itself by a restless 
 anxiety respecting ihe future fortunes of the church, and a strong attachment to 
 
 Erophetic hieroglyphics: the antichrist, and the man of sin; the beast with ten 
 orns, and the beast with two horns; the armies of Gog and Magog; the fall of 
 Babylon, and the arrival of the millennium, become the favorite, the only sub 
 jects of study; false and ridiculous perceptions amuse the imagination : the 
 judgment is gradually enfeebled, and, at last, the most powerful minds sink into 
 the imbecility of childhood. Of the truth of this description we have a melan 
 
 * Acrordii)2 to his vrill, an annual sermon is preached in Lincoln's Inn Chipel, to prove 
 he Pope to lit Antichrist, &c. &c.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGION. 245 
 
 choly pvoof in the great Sir Isaac Newton. To him Nature seemed to have un- 
 locked her choicest secrets: as a philosopher he was and is still unrivalled: hut 
 no sooner did he direct his telescope iroin the motions of the heavenly bodies 
 to the visions in the apocalypse, that; his head grew dizzy, the downfall ot pope- 
 ry danced before his eyes, and he hazarded predictions which on the scale of 
 prophets, have placed him far beneath the well known Francis Moore, physician 
 and almanHC-inaker. 
 
 It should be observed, that this intellectual malady, like the other species of 
 mania, assumes a thousand different shapes, according to the predispositions of 
 the subject which it attacks. I shall produce a few instances. In 1789, Mr. 
 Cook published a translation of the apocalypse, with keys to open its meaning 
 to his readers. This reverend gentleman was Greek professor in the universi- 
 ty at Cambridge; and, as his reading naturally led him to the Greek poets, he 
 was determined that the author of the apocalypse should be a poet, and, more- 
 over, the rival of Sophocles. In his opinion, the apocalypse is a tragedy form- 
 ed on the same plan as the CEdipus Tyrannus. "Thedraiiid opens with' the 
 temple scene; the seals, the trumpet, and the vials unfold the plot; and though 
 the antichrist does not die, no more than CEdipus, yet he falls into such calami- 
 ty as makes him an object of pity, and justifies the lamentations pronounced on 
 his downfall." Nor is this all. By trying one of his apocalyptic keys on the 
 Odyssey of Homer, he has discovered that poem also to have been inspired, and 
 informs us that the suitors of Penelope represent the vassals of popery, who, un- 
 der the pretence of courting the bride, the Christian church, devour all the good 
 things in her house, till Christ, the true Ulysses, the oS< <r<">t or safe way, ar- 
 rives, and wreaks his vengeance on them. 
 
 In Mr. Granville Sharp, the favorite apocalyptic Nostradamus of the Rector 
 of Newnton Longville, (Le Mess reply, p. 193, 202,) the mania has shewn itself 
 in a different manner. This gentleman is known to be singularly partial to mo- 
 nosyllables. He has written a volume on the Hebrew letter vau, and another on 
 the Greek articles, o, *, TO. From letters and articles, he was induced, by his 
 previous success and the importunity of his friends to proceed to the explica- 
 tion of the visions in the book of Revelations. Here the apocalyptic mania soon 
 discovered itself: but the appearance of the disease was modified by his pre- 
 vious habits of monosyllabic investigation. He convinced himself that the name 
 of the beast was Lateinos, and that Lateinos must signify the Latin church. The 
 proof is curious. Lateinos, he contends, is derived from the Hebrew monosyl- 
 lable LAT, which means to cover or conceal. Now the Latin church, in the 
 celebration of the mass, conceals some of the prayers from the people, by order- 
 ing them to be pronounced with a low voice: therefore the Latin church is La- 
 teinos, the beast in the apocalypse. Moreover the head of the Latin church resides 
 in the palace of the Lateran, a name derived from the same monosyllable LAT: 
 and the Lateran palace is situated in the country anciently called Latium, an ap- 
 pellation also derived from the same monosyllable Lat: and Latium is a province 
 of that part of Kurope called Italy, which lso derives its name from the same 
 monosyllable LAT. Be not startled, gentle reader: apocalyptic maniacs can 
 with equal facility read backwards or forwards; and Mr. Sharp informs us, that, 
 if we read Italy backwards, we shall have Ylati, in the midst of which is the He- 
 brew monosyllable LAT. Naviget Anticyram! 
 
 Were I to describe all the varieties ot the disease, these observations would 
 swell to an unmeasurable bulk. I shall therefore content myself with noticing 
 the prophetic, which is perhaps the most prevalent, species. When the mind la 
 seized with this mania, the regions of futurity are instantly opened to its sight: it 
 can point out the date and nature of every event which is to happen; it can in- 
 form us in what year popery, Mohammed ism, and infidelity are to perish; when 
 and where antichrist is to be born, reign, and die: who is to restore the Holy 
 Land to the Jews; and in vvhat year the new Jerusalem is to descend from heaven. 
 It is in vain that preceding prophets have frequently outlived their own predic- 
 tions: the lessons of experience are heard with contempt: and easch new seer is 
 convinced of the truth of his own visions. Among those who have suffered late- 
 ly under this form of the disease, the most distinguished are Mr. Whitaker and 
 Mr. Faber, both scholars of extensive erudition, and both equally animated 
 against the Church of Rome. They both agree that Luther is the angel wi h the 
 everlasting gospel; and, if by his gospel they mean the solitidian doctrine ~Jrea- 
 dy noticed, they have a chance to be right. It muy justly he called everlasting 
 v2
 
 246 DEBATE Oy THE 
 
 for it will probably find proselytes as long as man shall dwell on the e?rth. Mr. 
 Whilaker discovers that the two horns of the beast are the two monastic orders 
 of the Dominicans and Franciscans. Why they should claim the preference be- 
 fore their brethren, of greater antiquity, or more general ditTusioi I know not; 
 but it is certainly unfortunate that the beast has not four horns then you, ye 
 sons of Benedict and Loyola, might have had the honor of being seated" on the 
 remaining two. The same gentleman informs us that the Ottoman empire will 
 soon fall, Rome be wrested from the pope, and the seat of the papacy be trans- 
 ferred to Jerusalem. Air. Faber makes an equal display of erudition; but the 
 third angel, Mr. Whitaker's Zuingle.he has placed in a most uncomfortable situa- 
 tion: he has bound him fast in the midst of the ocean, and transformed him into 
 the insular church of England! Nor does he always agree with his rival iu more 
 important points. The two beasts he shews to be the two contemporary Ro- 
 man empires, temporal and spiritual, under the emperors and the popes: and 
 gives his readers the pleasing intelligence, that both the Turk and the Pope will 
 expire in the year 1868. Though he does not expect to witness this happy event 
 himself, yet he has the goodness to promise a sight of it to mahy of the present 
 generation: 
 
 Unfortunately for these two prophets, each disputed the accuracy of the pre- 
 dictions of his rival : an animated controversy followed ; and the result has been 
 a conviction in the minds of most of their readers, that each has completely suc- 
 ceeded in demolishing the system of his adversary, and completely failed in estab- 
 lishing his own. 
 
 Thus have I attempted to describe the different symptoms of this disease; but 
 I hope I shall be excused from indicating the method of cure. When the mania 
 has once obtainei possession of the brain, 1 doubt whether three Anticyne would 
 be sufficient to expel it. I would rather, like Dr. Trotter in his treatise on the 
 nervous temperament, endeavor to correct that predisposition whicli natu- 
 rally leads to it. I would advise the Protestant theologian to suspend, for a while 
 at least, his assent to some of those doctrines, which education has taught him 
 to revere as sacred. I would have him learn to doubt whether it be certain, that 
 a long succession of bishops, through many centuries, can be that one individual 
 described by St. Paul as the man of sin: or that the church, from which almost 
 all other churches have received the knowledge of the gospel is, " the great 
 mother of harlots," and the kingdom of Antichrist. J would recommend to him, 
 if he must decipher the apocalyptic hieroglyphics, to attend to the solemn assev- 
 eration of their author, which is frequently repeated both in the first and the last 
 chapters, that his predictions were, even at the time in which he wrote, on the 
 point of being fulfilled. In the destruction of Jerusalem, and the first period of 
 the Christian history, he may find enough to exercise his ingenuity, and may per- 
 haps stumble on the only clue which can lead to the solution of the difficulties 
 contained in this mysterious volume. I am aware that what I ask, will not readily 
 be granted to me. The doctrine that popery is the beast, the pope antichrist, 
 and Christian Rome the whore of Babylon, is, I know, an important part of the 
 new gospel preached by Luther and his associates: it forms, to use the words of a 
 learned prelate,* "a primary pillar of the reformed faith." But when I con- 
 sider the dangerous consequences of this doctrine, its deleterious effects on the 
 judgment of some among the mpst distinguished writers of the Protestant com- 
 munion, the ridicule which it serves to throw on the inspired writings, and the 
 handle which it gives to the sneers and contempt of the professed infidel, I in- 
 dulge a well-founded hope that, for the sake of religion and humanity, it will 
 meet with little support from the enlightened characters, who now preside in 
 the established church. If it once formed a pillar of the reformation, I conceive 
 it could only be a temporary support, which may now be removed without clan- 
 ger to the fabric. To the pious fraud, from its utility, the first reformers might 
 easily reconcile their consciences; at the present day it may be rejected by their 
 successors with some credit: it cannot be retained without disgrace. 
 
 * Watson's Theological Tract*, vol. v. p. 7.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC HELIGION. 247 
 
 Half-past 11 o'clock, A, M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 The bishop has not given one but many and various proofs of the 
 truth of an adage of some currency and authority. Napoleon in his 
 flight from Moscow, musing on recent disasters, often uttered this ex- 
 pression: "There is but one short step from the sublime to the ridicu- 
 lous," I never before witnessed so illustrious a proof of the invin- 
 cible force of the argument from prophecy. I looked at the gentle- 
 man writhing under the accumulating evidence, amounting almost to 
 demonstration, that I had asserted no defamation in my fourth propo- 
 sition. Instead of meeting the subject with scripture and argument, 
 like the scuttle fish, he darkens the waters that he may escape the 
 eye and the hand of his pursuer. His effort at mystification is as 
 ridiculous as it is imbecile. He invokes the assistance of some old 
 lady to create a laugh ; but the audience has got tired laughing at his 
 manoeuvres. The subject is two grave, and the audience too deeply 
 penetrated with the awful truth which they had just heard to be amus- 
 ed by such levity. Failing so manifestly, in the attempt to disparage 
 all use of the prophecies, he undertakes to explain. He is driven 
 into Asia to the Koran, and to Mecca for the man of sin ! How have 
 the weapons of war perished ! Facts are not found in the history of 
 Mahomet or Mahometanism, to explain these prophecies : and conscious 
 of this, his own courage fails, and a second time he resorts to ridicule. 
 As Voltaire, Volney, and other wits, have fruitlessly attempted to 
 laugh Christianity out of countenance, he endeavors to place the whole 
 matter before you as idle and absurd. Could my rhetorical and ingen- 
 ious opponent afford more unequivocal manifestations of confusion and 
 dismay, than you have now witnessed ? But, my friends, we are not 
 to be laughed out of our argument, that stands before us like the rock 
 of Gibraltar. The waves that strike it, but foam out their imbecility, 
 and are broken to pieces. He may, indeed, torture his ingenuity to 
 escape from an argument, which he dare not, which he cannot meet ; 
 but he will torture it in vain. 
 
 The effort of my opponent has been as much to disparage prophecy 
 itself, as any mode of interpreting it. According to him, prophecy 
 is no gift : On our principles, it is at least as useful and interesting 
 as history. It is one of the kindest boons of heaven, that we are per- 
 mitted sometimes to peep into the future, guided by the lamp of eter- 
 nity. The whole Bible, is for the most part, history and prophecy. 
 It is almost all history, for prophecy is the history of the future. God 
 never held the human family in suspense respecting their vital inter- 
 ests. Their origin, duty, and destiny,, he has equally regarded in all 
 his communications. Soon as our first parents had transgressed in 
 Eden, he permitted not one sun to go down, till he appeared to thei 
 and revealed a portion of his purposes. In a single period he con- 
 denses a miniature view of the future destinies of mankind : " I will 
 place enmity," said he to the serpent, " between thy seed and her 
 seed : it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." I 
 thank our Heavenly Father, that he has thus from the beginning vouch- 
 safed to his children something of the future. Indeed, so abundant 
 are his revelations, his promises which are all prophecies, and his 
 prophecies which all threaten or promise, that there is scarce a single 
 page of the whole Bible without a prophecy inscribed upon it. Cer-
 
 248 EBATE ON THE 
 
 tainly my opponent has forgotten this ! Has he not, according to his 
 ability, been turning into ridicule prophecy itself, the Bible itself 
 God's good and perfect gift 1 ? But if prophecy be wholly unintelli- 
 gible ; Why, I ask, should it constitute so large a portion of God's 
 only book to man ? But I will not farther debate this question. The 
 gentleman himself would admit all this, on any other occasion. 
 
 I did not intend, indeed, and I am sorry I proposed, an argument of 
 this kind before such an assembly, limited as I am at present to an 
 hour or two, at most to complete it. If my opponent would devote 
 with me a day or two to this subject, I might even satisfy himself, 
 not only that prophecy is a gift, an intelligent gift ; but that much of 
 it pertains to the origin, progress, and catastrophe of that very hierar- 
 chy, of which he is himself a member. 
 
 There are two kinds of maps in schools ; one gives both the place 
 and the name of it, the other (sometimes called a blank map,) gives 
 the place without the name. The former represents history ; the lat- 
 ter, prophecy. Prophecy is as correct a map of the future, as histo- 
 ry is of the past ; but it is not always quite so obvious. I have taught 
 geography with these two sorts of maps. The pupil studied on that 
 inscribed with the names of the places, and we examined him on the 
 blank map. The study of fulfilled prophecy, with the history of the 
 past, prepares us for the blank map, the outline of the future. On 
 the blank map, we can learn the great outline of things their rela 
 tive positions, distances and magnitudes. We may sometimes err, in 
 fixing the proper name on every place: but we cannot greatly err, in 
 forming a useful acquaintance with the whole ; especially, having a 
 correct knowledge of what is past, or of certain portions of the past, 
 which must ever be a key to the future. Thus we can acquire a clear 
 and satisfactory outline of the vast expanse of future time, although 
 we may, sometimes, err in a date, or in the name of a particular place, 
 person, or thing. 
 
 But as my opponent has so perfectly failed to meet my argument; 
 I shall have to give it to the public without much amplification or 
 proof. ' I will, therefore, recapitulate, emphatically, a few of the 
 grand land marks ; and 
 
 1. The two tyrannies mentioned in Daniel and John, arose out of 
 the great sea, the Mediterranean ; or, from among the nations border- 
 ing thereon, in a state of tumult. Does not Rome stand on these wa- 
 ters ; and is not Italy almost surrounded by them ? The Tiber itself, 
 inconsiderable as it is, is nevertheless, a part of this very sea. This 
 beast came not from the deserts of Arabia ; nor from the Pacific, nor 
 the Atlantic ; but from the Mediterranean. 
 
 2. The origin or commencement of these two despotisms, or of the 
 ymbolic beasts of Daniel and John, exactly synchronize. They were 
 
 contemporaries : indeed, they are identical. They both rise at the 
 same time and place. 
 
 3. They are co-existent, and continue the same time, 1260 years. 
 
 4. The types, in both pictures, or the grand incidents and charac- 
 teristics, are the same. 
 
 5. Their latter end is the same. There is, indeed, no argument on 
 this subject : it is as plain as history. My opponent will never debate 
 it. Paul occupies the place of a commentator or interpretator, and 
 without a figure explains the mystery of iniquity. He avers the im- 
 possibility of the appearance of this monster, this papal hierarchy, so
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 2-49 
 
 long as pagan Rome, which then hindered a pope, should continue to 
 hinder. All commentators understand, " he that lets," as referring to 
 pagan Rome. We have already seen, that we could not find a pope 
 before the time of Phocas the usurper, and Boniface III. No politico- 
 ecclesiastic communion of nations, under a ghostly monarchy, ever 
 stood on earth before that day. 
 
 Paul speaks of the temple of God, as the residence of this mammoth 
 antagonist power. It was not iu a pure church he appeared, and, cer- 
 tainly it was not among the pagan Arabs, that this man of idolatry (for 
 such is the import of sin in this passage) showed his blasphemous face. 
 
 I said not, that there was no church of God at Rome, before the pa- 
 pacy. If there never had been a true church of God, at Rome ; the papacy, 
 or the man of sin, never could have been born there. For, be it ob- 
 served, emphatically, the man of sin is not a pagan, a Turk, a pro- 
 fessed infidel ; but, an apostate Christian. 
 
 Does not the pope of Rome, and none but the pope of Rome, fill up 
 all the grand lineaments of this painting? He exalts himself above 
 all that is called a god a magistrate, a pagan god ; nay, above God 
 himself: for no false God, nor the only living and true God, proposed 
 to forgive sins before they were committed ! His name is covered 
 with blasphemy. There never stood on earth such a monster; look- 
 ing like a lamb, and speaking like a dragon. I need not, however, 
 repeat what has not been contradicted. 
 
 My argument is unanswered. I regret that it must go to the public, 
 without being more fully tested. As to Lateinos, the gentleman may 
 laugh at it; but can he show state or empire, whose name like that of 
 He Laiine Barileia, will spell 666? If he cannot, this alone ought to 
 check his opposition. 
 
 My opponent did me great honor, in giving me such a colleague as 
 Sir Isaac Newton, to bear half the brunt of his indignation. Greater 
 literary and ecclesiastic names, than that of this great philosopher, and 
 brighter stars in universal knowledge, adorn those prophetic heavens, 
 and concentrate their light upon this map, which I have traced so hastily 
 and imperfectly. What, if I should let the gentleman see a star of the 
 first magnitude, or hear an archdeacon, in his own church, say a word 
 on Babylon, and on the woman that sits on many waters ! 
 
 " Who can there safely live, where not only wicked things are lawful, but all 
 men are compelled by the severest punishments to believe, speak, and follow the 
 most wicked and ungodly things; and to embrace them as things just and lauda- 
 ble; where they do not only not receive sound doctrine, but bitterly persecute 
 all those who do resist the madness of their wills 1 * * * 
 
 * What is it, think you, to be drunk with the cup of Babylon, but from 
 
 long conversation with her to be so infected with the contagion of her, that, fol- 
 lowing the erring herd, you willingly embrace false things for true; perverse for 
 righteous, mad things for sound: and to desire rather to be mad with the multi- 
 tude, than to be wise alone with danger and derision? He that is different in man- 
 ners from them, ought not to live there, where the plague of corruption hath so 
 prevailed as to infect all men with its contagion." Nicholaus de Clemaugia. 
 Epist. p. 177. 
 
 In his book of Simoniacal Prelates, he says, cap. 1* 
 
 " The church is now become a shop of merchandize, or rather of robbery and 
 rapine; in which all the sacraments are exposed to sale. * * And 
 
 therefore, vou see such men admitted to the priesthood and other holy orders, 
 who are idiots, unlearned, and scarce able to read, though waywardlv, and with- 
 out understanding one syllable after another, who know no more Latin, that, 
 they do Arabic, who, wfien they read, pray, or sing, know not, whether they 
 bless God or blaspheme him men undisciplined, unquiet, gluttons, drunkards 
 
 32
 
 250 DEBATE Oy THE 
 
 prater?, vagabonds, lustful, bred up in luxury, ai;d in one word, idle and ignorant." 
 
 In his book of the corrupt state of the church, cap. 3. 
 
 "That she was defiled with the sink of all vices; and might be fitly called the 
 church of Malignants ; that the saying of the prophet was now verified, that 
 from the least of them to the greatest, every one was given to covetousness; that 
 from the prophet to the priest, every one dealt falsely. * * * * 
 
 Who preaches or declares the gospel? Who either by word or deed shews the 
 way to life eternal?" 
 
 Again : 
 
 " What should I speak, (saith he) of the learning of the priests, when it is visible 
 that scarce any of them can read? They know not words, and much less things: 
 he of them that prayeth, is a barbarian to himself. If any man is idle and ab- 
 hors labor, if he loves luxury, he gets now-a-days into the clergy, and then 
 presently he joins himself to the rest of the priests that are voluptuous, and live 
 according to Epicurus, rather than according to the laws of Christ. Cap. 25. 
 
 " Such (saith he) is the abundance of wicked men in all professions, that there 
 is scarcely one among a thousand, who sincerely doth what his profession doth 
 require; if there be any sincere, chaste, sober, frugal person, in any college or 
 convent, who doth not walk in the broad way, he is made a ridiculous fable to the 
 rest, and is continually called insolent, mad, and hypocritical fellow; so that 
 many who would have been good, had they lived with good and honest men, 
 are drawn by wicked company into their vices, lest they should suffer the fore- 
 mentioned reproaches among their companions." Cap. 26. 
 
 He tken concludes with an apostrophe to the Roman church, as 
 follows : 
 
 "What thinkest thou of thine own prophecy, the Revelations of St. John? 
 Dost thou not think they do at least, in part, belong to thee ? Thou hast not 
 surely so wholly lost all shame as to deny this: look, therefore, into it, and read 
 the damnation of this great whore, sitting' uponmany waters, and then contemplati 
 thy famous facts and future ruin." Declarat. Defect. Virorum Ecrl. 
 
 So testifies Nicolaus de Clemaugis, an archdeacon of the church of 
 Rome, in the fifteenth century. 
 
 Not only have the sins of Sodom and Egypt been multiplied in this 
 Babylon the great, but she had superadded to these the blood-guilti- 
 ness and cruelty of Jerusalem. Persecution is of the very essence . 
 and spirit of the supremacy, not merely as the martyred millions of 
 Protestants, of every age, declare ; but according to the doctrine of the 
 church, and the oaths of her bishops. Every Roman Catholic bishop 
 is sworn to persecute heretics and schismatics : even this very gentle- 
 man has sworn to persecute and oppose heretics and schismatics to the utmost 
 of his power. This is no mere allegation. I will hereafter produce 
 the oath, and if it can be otherwise explained, I shall give him an op- 
 portunity to do it. Till then, I proceed to allege, further, that learned 
 Roman Catholics have tremblingly interpreted these prophecies, as 
 belonging to Rome papal. I have another witness here, in confirma- 
 tion of my speech, and with his testimony I shall close these remarks, 
 and proceed. 
 
 " Whence is it that this happened? to wit, because all flesh had corrupted its 
 ways, we were all citizens and inhabitants not of the holy city Rome, that 
 wjcked city; of which that of the prophet Isaiah is fulfilled, "How is the faithful 
 city become aharlot." Let no man think this prophecy has been fulfilled already 
 in the destruction of Babylon, or Jerusalem. No! future things were present to 
 the prophet's eye, and this the prophet hath declared to us-, saying, ' the daugh- 
 ter of Zion shall be left desolate, as in the wasting of the enemy. St. John 
 doth in the Revelations tell us, the daughter of Zion is not Jerusalem, but Rome; 
 and his description of her makes it plain: For the woman which thou sawest 
 (saith he) is that great city which hatn dominion over the kings of the earth, 
 that is spiritual dominion. She sits, saith he, upon seven hills, which properly 
 agrees to Rome, which upon this account, is styled septicolis. She is full, saith 
 he, { the names of blasphemy she u the mother of uncleanness, fornications.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 251 
 
 and aborninations,which are in the earth; than which words, no more particular 
 demonstration of the city can be requisite, seeing these iniquities do almost gen- 
 erally reign, yet here they have their seat and empire." Orat. habit, ad auditores 
 Roteir \laii 15, A. D. 
 
 My friend is again on celibacy. But, really, I cannot return to 
 these matters as often as he chooses to explain away, or deny, or 
 otherwise dispose of, his own sayings and concessions. In this mat- 
 ter, as in a hundred others, it might suffice to show, that he differs 
 from both Peter and Paul, and all the other apostles. For, as an 
 apostle of Christ, Paul says of himself and Barnabas, that they had a 
 right to have wives, " gisler-wives" as well as the other apostles. la 
 this way Paul proves the point : " Have we not power to lead about 
 with us a wife, as the other apostles have 1 Or, are Barnabas and my- 
 self debarred this privilege ?" Such is the spirit and point of that 
 passage ; and excepting in time of public calamity, as Paul elsewhere 
 teaches, " Let every man have his own wife, and every woman her own 
 husband." So we teach. 
 
 The bishop owes an apology for speaking on a subject, which I 
 did not introduce for discussion. The whole merits of auricular con- 
 fession is not the question ; but the simple fact, that it is a tenet of the 
 party, growing out of a human rule of divine faith. I introduced it, to 
 be admitted or denied ; not now to be debated. The same is true of 
 transubstantiation. I introduced these institutions, as proof of the im- 
 moral nature and tendency of the Romanist rule of faith. I think it 
 almost enough to have these doctrines or institutions acknowledged in 
 this age and country, to prove that Roman Catholicism is not suscep- 
 tible of reformation ; and would be the same in this community as in 
 Spain, Italy, or Portugal, under similar circumstances. My friend 
 had the opportunity of a simple, denial of these items at the moment, 
 if they were not parts of his system ; and he may have the full dis- 
 cussion of them again. 
 
 On the subject of confession, one word as to the quotations from 
 Episcopalians and Methodists. , Would the gentleman wish you to 
 understand, that auricular confession is an ordinance of those religious 
 communities, as taught and practised in his church ? If he does not, 
 where is the relevancy of these- quotations ? If he does, where is the 
 truth and candor"? " Confess your faults to one another," will justify 
 any two or more persons mutually to confess to each other, and to pray 
 for one another ,- but will he affirm, that Methodists and Episcopalians 
 say to one another, " I absolve thee," at their mutual confessions ? ! 
 Why, then, I ask, seek to make Episcopalians and Methodists bear a 
 part of the shame of these unscriptural and sinful practices 1 They 
 disavow them : they would say to the bishop, confess your faults to 
 us, and vj will confess to you ; but on no other condition. We may 
 pray for you ; we cannot forgive you. You may pray for us ; but you 
 cannot forgive us. I must, on this point, read you another extract 
 frorr. Smith's Synopsis of the works of Ligori, that you may see what 
 justice my opponent renders to. Episcopalians and Methodists, in his 
 alliancing them with himself on the subject of confession : 
 
 " The sum I continues thus: St. Philip iVerius used to tell his penitents, that 
 they who desire to progress in the way of God should submit themselves to a 
 learnedcoiiftssor, whom they should obey as God. [Is this Methodism ?] Ho who 
 thus acts will be secure from having to render an account of any of his actions. 
 A confessor must be believed, because God will not suffer him to err. Nothing 
 is safer than to follow the will of one's director, and nothing i* more dangerous
 
 252 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 than to be directed by one'i own judgment. [Is this Episcopallanism?] "If," 
 continues Ligori, quoting from Giossa,"a commandment be doubtful, he who 
 acts in obedience to his confessor is excused from sin, although in truth, what 
 he does is sinful."" [Is this Methodism?] Quoting from St. Dionysius, he has 
 the following: " If there be a doubt whether what one is about to do is against 
 the commandment of God, we must obey the commandment of our prelate," 
 (bishop, priest or confessor,) " because, although what we do be against God 
 nevertheless, on account of the virtue of obedience, we being subject to our 
 prelates do not sin." [Is this Episcopalianism?] Id. ib. 
 
 "Let the confessor," continues the saint, "strenuously insist upon the peni- 
 tent's obeying him, and if he refuses to obey, let him be sharply rebuked, be 
 deprived of communion, and let his obduracy be blunted as much a possible." 
 Id. ib. N. 16. [Time expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 It was not heaven's holy oracles, but man's presumptuous freedom 
 with the word of God, that I ridiculed. It was my friend who ex- 
 posed the holy record to contempt ; and afforded to infidels occasion 
 for triumph and insult, by forcing upon it his own preposterous inter- 
 pretations, and making it say what its divine Author never intended it 
 to say. I tell him again, in the very words of that sacred book, that 
 "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation;" that these 
 blind who are " leaders of the blind," and that " both full into the pit ." 
 Matthew xv. 14. that, as Peter says, there are many things in the scrip- 
 tures which my friend says are so very plain, hard to be understood, which 
 the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures to 
 their own destruction; 2d Peter, ch. iii. v. 16; finally, that "as there 
 were FALSE PROPHETS among the people, even so shall there be lying 
 teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who 
 bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction, and many shall 
 follow their riotousness, through whom the way of truth shall be evil 
 spoken of." Having exposed the scriptures, our learned friend gave 
 us a smart lesson in geography and chronology, proving, at least, one 
 point to my satisfaction, if not to his own, that we may err in a date, 
 place, person, or thing, the which he veritably hath done in his sym 
 bolical dissertation. I may, but I will not, apply to him the figure of 
 Isaiah, " he has broken the eggs of asps, and may eat them ; he hatb 
 woven the spider's web, and may clothe himself with the filmy tex- 
 ture." Isaiah lix. 5. The fragile egg and filmy texture are proper 
 emblems of fickleness, inconstancy, and change of religion ; but in 
 ours there is neither mutability nor "shadow of vicissitude." 
 
 My friend has taken us a fishing again ; the sea monster has dis- 
 cclored the waters, and like the wolf and lamb in the fable, he charges 
 upon me the troubling of the stream. There is no escape for the 
 gentleman, " I absolve thee" are the very words of the Episcopalian 
 ritual in England ; and private and particular confession is practised 
 by the Methodists in the United States. Even he, himself, admits 
 that the words " confess your sins to one another," will justify 
 (St. James and Christians, ought to be much obliged to him,) 
 any two, or more, to confess to one another ! What, then, does he 
 mean by denying and admitting, rejecting and adopting, every creed 
 and practice alternately ] He blows hot and cold with the same 
 breath. St. Philip Nerius gave wise directions on the decalogue, 
 and shewed that God, himself, could not authorize a violation of his 
 own laws, much less a confessor. Hence his advice " obey yout
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 
 
 confessor as God," was perfectly intelligible. I wish my friend would 
 study the saint's life, and he would find in it maxims and examples 
 well worthy of imitation, and nothing that could scandalize him. 
 
 My argument upon the subject of confession was perfectly pertinent ; 
 and the gentleman felt it hinc illse lachrymae, hence his charge of 
 irrelevancy. It was elaborately argued by him, that the practice was 
 immoral, and it behoved me to vindicate it, as I have done, by prov- 
 ing that it was authorized and commanded by scripture, practised by 
 the early church in its purity, and advocated by two of the most nu- 
 merous and respectable sects, viz. Episcopalians and Methodists 
 Now, if my friend says, that persons in those communions never g 
 to confession, according to the discipline and ritual, it only proves 
 their inconsistency. I'riests and bishops do confess, and that fre- 
 
 3>iently. The more pious and sincere they are, the more faithfully 
 o they comply with the salutary ordinance. 
 
 We do not dissuade young people from marrying, we only regret 
 that those who are called to that state, do not marry faster. What is 
 the object of all that tirade of abusive extracts against the Catholic 
 church 1 Must I have to read dissertations to my opponent on all the 
 humbugs, which his criticism has not been long enough at school to 
 detect 1 The book " De Corrupto Ecclesix Slatu, was not written by 
 its putative author Nicolaus de Clamangis, who was secretary to the 
 anti-pope Benedict XIII. John De Chelm, James De Cleur, and John 
 of Bavaria, have had respectively the honor of a production of which, 
 its real author had reason to be ashamed. I wish my friend would spare 
 me the necessity of such frequent exposure of his I won't say it. 
 
 Here are the complete works of Liguori, in eight volumes, with an 
 index consisting of one volume. I have performed a work of supere- 
 rogation. I have examined these volumes, from cover to cover, and 
 in none of them can so much as a shadow be found for the infamous 
 charge. I exonerate my friend from the sin of wilful misrepresenta- 
 tion, I will say he has been deceived, misled by anti-christ, perhaps, 
 who can deceive the elect, if possible, that is to say, if Pll let him, 
 which I have, in this instance, no notion of doing. The original tells 
 the truth. The translation lies. My friends, I hope that the same 
 audience, which is here now, will be here this evening, and I pledge 
 myself, before the heavens and the earth, that this base slander is 
 what I call it. There is no foundation for it whatever in the works 
 of Liguori. On the contrary, in the place indicated, the severest 
 punishment, known to church discipline, is pronounced against the 
 ecclesiastic who violates the holy law ; " Thou shalt perform unto the 
 Lord thine oath." Numbers xxx. 2 and seq. 
 
 I know of no better vindication of Catholic doctrines and practices, 
 than their simple and faithful announcement. It is the misrepresen- 
 tation of our tenets that did us injury for times and a time and half a 
 time; but now the light from heaven is breaking. "Thou hast ap- 
 pointed darkness, and it is night, in it shall all the beasts of the earth 
 go about. the sun riseth and they shall lie down in their dens." 
 Ps. ciii. 20, 22. 
 
 My learned opponent, says the Tiber runs into the Mediterranean. 
 That is a fact, and so do the waters of a thousand other streams. He 
 says that 1 did not prove that there was a head of the church in Rome 
 before Constantine's time. This I may simply deny; but have I not 
 quoted the testimony of general councils, of the fathers, of numbe' lesa
 
 254 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 appeals to Rome, of Pagans, historians and emperors, to prove that, 
 now incontestible, fact 1 ? I refer to Eusebius, and add one remark that 
 Eusebius was born in 270. His history extends to the year 324, the 
 epoch when Constantine was sole master of the Roman empire. Eu- 
 sehius narrated the belief of the whole church during the preceding 
 two hundred years, for no longer period had elapsed since the death of 
 St. John and Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenseus, Caius, a Roman priest, 
 and Hegesippus, the ecclesiastical historian, lived in that interval. 
 Read Eusebius. My friend has now allowed that, for a long time, the 
 church of Rome was pure. This is true; but when will he fulfil his 
 promise at the opening of the debate and inform us, at last, from what 
 church she is an apostacy? We*are coming near the end of the dis- 
 cussion and this is too important a point to be forgotten. 
 
 "The church formerly used the vernacular language." So she did. 
 And there was a very good reason for it. The Latin then was the ver- 
 nacular of the greatest part of the civilized world, in consequence of 
 the Roman conquests. It was generally known, where other lan- 
 guages continued to be the vernacular. St. Paul wrote to the Romans 
 in Greek, a language which all the Romans did not understand. My 
 friend Mr. Campbell has stated the very best reasons, in the preface to 
 his new Testament, for the adoption of a uniform language as the ve- 
 hicle of revelation. The learned Southey agrees, if not with him, at 
 least, with the Catholic church on the subject of its peculiar fitness to 
 be the language of the Christian Liturgy. 
 
 " Latin," savs Southey, Vol. I. p. 59, " was made the language of religion ; there 
 had been the saine reason for this in Italv, and Spain, and France, as for making 
 it the language of the laws; and in England also, there was reason, which, 
 though different, was not less valid. A common language was necessary for 
 the clergy, who considered themselves as belonging, less to the country, 
 in which they happened, individually to have been born, or stationed, than to 
 their order, or to Christendom, for in these ages Christendom was regarded as 
 something more than a mere name. No modern language was as yet fix- 
 ed, or reduced to rules or regarded as a written tongue; of necessity, therefore, 
 Latin, in which the western clergy read the scriptures, and in which the fathers 
 of the western church had composed their works, and the councils had issued 
 their decrees, was every where retained as the natural and professional lan- 
 guage of the ministers of religion. They preached and catechized, and confer- 
 red in the common speech of the country, and that the church service was not ver- 
 bally intelligible to tne congregation was, upon their principles, no inconvenience. 
 
 But if, in this respect, there was no real disadvantage in the use of a foreign 
 tongue; in other respects many and most important advantages arose from it. 
 The clergy became of necessity a learned body: and to their humble and pa- 
 tient labors we owe the whole history of the middle ages, and the preservation 
 of those works of antiquity, which, for the instruction of all after ages, have been 
 preserved: The students at Canterbury in Bede's time, wfcre as well skilled, both 
 in Latin and Greek as in their native speech; and Bede, himself (worthy to be 
 called venerable, if ever that epithet was worthily applied) had acquired all that 
 could possibly be learned from books, and, was master of what was then, the 
 whole circle of human knowledge." 
 
 The people have the substance, frequently the literal translation, in 
 their prayer books, of what the Priest reads, during the sacrifice, in 
 the ancient language of Catholic Europe. They know as well as the 
 priest, himself, does, to what they answer, 'Amen.' When a foreigner 
 from any of the countries where Greek is not the vernacular comes in- 
 to our churches, and I need scarcely except even the Catholics, of the 
 Greek rite, he is perfectly at home, among his brethren in faith and 
 worship. Their ceremonies and prayers are the same as in his native 
 "sand Germans, French, English, Irish, Poles, Swiss, I'alians, Por-
 
 ROHAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 255 
 
 , like th Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven, we 
 hear our priests, as they did the apostles, speaking in a tongue which 
 we well may call our own, " the wonderful works of God." The ser- 
 mons of our churcJi are not preached in Latin, but in as plain English 
 as we can find in common use. 
 
 I have answered all I could note of the gentleman's remarks. I have 
 only two of my own to add at present. It is in reference to the assei- 
 tiqn of my learned opponent that monsters are always emblematical 
 of bad men or tyrants. Now what will my friend say of Ezekiel 1st 
 ch. " And I saw and behold a whirlwind came out of the north : 
 and a great cloud, and a fire infolding it, and brightness was about it; 
 and out of the midst thereof, that is, out of the midst of the fire, as it 
 were the resemblance of Amber^and in the midst thereof the likeness 
 of four living creatures : and this was their appearance : -there was the 
 likeness of a man in them. Every one had four faces, and every one 
 four wings. Their feet were straight feet, and the sole of their foot 
 was like the sole of a calf's foot ; and they sparkled like the appear- 
 ance of glowing brass. And they had the hands of a man, under their 
 wings, on their four sides : and they had faces, and wings on their 
 sides. And I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many 
 waters, as it were the voice of the most high God ; This was the 
 vision of the likeness of the glory of the Lord." What will my friend 
 now say of his monster theory ] These animals are taken to h?ve 
 been figures of the four Evangelists, or of all the Apostles. 
 
 My second remark is, that whoever has read Hume's or Lingard's 
 history of England, knows that the Ana-baptists when driven by arm- 
 ed soldiers out of the Parliament House, found in the famous Oliver 
 Cromwell, a perfect fac-simile of the Anti-Christ. [Time expired.] 
 
 Three o'clock, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 There was one remark made by my opponent, in his last speech, 
 and only one that had some appropriate reference to my remarks on 
 symbols. Upon this remark, I will make one affirmation. Whatever 
 else he has been pleased to say, may pass for what it is worth, tax free. 
 
 The gentleman asserts, that beasts of prey are not always sym- 
 bolical of tyrants. Had I asserted that proposition, it would have 
 been in point to have .made such a remark : but unfortunately for him, 
 that was not my proposition. It was, that when God depicts a tyran- 
 ny, he selects some monster, or some savage wild beast to symbolize 
 it. But is that identical with " beasts of prey in symbolic language 
 only represent tyrants 1" Or follows it from my proposition, that a lion 
 or an eagle must always and uniformly represent a tyrant 1 I went far- 
 ther and said, that some savage wild beast some monster was God's 
 inage of a secular or ecclesiastic despotism. This was my explanation. 
 
 It is true that a " lion," as well as a " lamb" is applied to the Sa- 
 vior. He is the " Lion of the tribe of Judah :" but Daniel's lion had 
 win<rs, and came from the sea. It was a monster. 
 
 The Roman spirit, in other words, the savage spirit of pagan and 
 papal Rome, has been imparted even to Protestant states. In so much 
 that England has for her symbol, or national device, a tawny lion; 
 and her sons have chosen their own eagle, a ravenous bird of prey, 
 for their device, that they may pounce upon their mother's lion and 
 show themselves as full of war and stratagem and spoils, as the bar-
 
 256 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 barous and uncivilized nations of the old pagan world. Although 1 
 prefer the American Eagle to the British Lion, I would rather fight 
 the battles of my king, under the device ot a milk white dove, on an 
 azure flag, as more consonant to the genius of the Reign of heaven. 
 War lowever, is wholly barbarous. Nations at war, are at best but 
 partly civilized, and, therefore, they generally choose beasts of prey 
 for their insignia. When we become more rational, more civilized, 
 and more Christian, we will find some other way of settling our na- 
 tional disputes, than with the sword, and with the confused noise of 
 the warrior, and garments baptized in blood. 
 
 The gentleman asked, the other day, (and I know not whether 
 in the crowd of curious and impertinent matters introduced, I paid 
 any attention to it) if God could make twelve men infallible, could 
 he not make as many more infallible as he pleased ; and continue 
 them through all succeeding time ?! Certainly he could, I answer: 
 but there is no philosophy in this question. I might retort, could not 
 God have made fourteen instead of seven primary planets ] and as 
 many satellites as he pleased ? And the same answer would equally 
 suit both questions. We therefore answer by saying, that neither 
 the system of nature, nor the system of religion needs them. The 
 inspired twelve made a full revelation of Christian truth. They taught 
 the whole religion : We need nothing more. If a full and explicit 
 development, is once made, and carefully preserved ; ten thousand 
 apostles could not perfect the Christian system, by adding a new idea. 
 
 My friend gave me a challenge the other day : I think I have ac- 
 cepted it: he now adds from some new source, or repeats, I know 
 not which, " If the testimony of tradition be not infallible how can 
 you know the Bible to be inspired 1" This, together with his repeated 
 assertion that Protestants believe in the bible on the same testimony 
 he offers for the succession of Peter, &c.; I reserved for my sixth pro- 
 position, which, because of the advanced state of the discussion, as 
 respects time, is likely to be crowded into a corner, I therefore beg 
 permission to introduce it at this time. 
 
 " PROP. VI. Notwithstanding her pretensions to have given u>> the Bible, and 
 faith in it, we are perfectly independent ot her for our knowledge of thai book, 
 and its evidences ofa divine original." 
 
 The Roman Catholic says, as the bishop has himself averred, " I 
 believe in the Holy Catholic church :" but this phrase needs a general 
 council to explain it. Does it mean, I believe the Catholic church ; 
 or, I believe in the Catholic church ] Do they confide in it for salva- 
 tion, or only believe what it believes ; and because it believes it 1 It is 
 ambiguous. The " fides carbonaria" is thus expressed : " I believe 
 what the church believes ; and the church believes what I believe ; 
 and we both believe the same thing." Or, as repeated the other 
 day, the Roman Catholic believes the bible on the authority of the 
 church, and the church on the authority of the bible ! But the Chris- 
 tian is commanded and expected to be always ready to give a reason 
 for the faith that is in him. God is reason ; and every communica- 
 tion from him is rational ; and as man is a reasonable being, he must 
 have good reasons to offer for his believing the Christian religion. 
 When you ask a Roman Catholic the reason of his faith, what does 
 he answer 1 ? His father told him that the Roman Catholic was the 
 true church. The same reason would justify any one for being a 
 Jew, a Turk, or an infidel. He that is of the order of Ali or Omar,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 257 
 
 has then, as good a reason to give for his faith in the Koran, as any 
 Romanist has to give for his faith in the bible, if his answer to the 
 question, ' why do you believe ?' is, Because my father, or the mosque, 
 or the church told me it was so. I would, indeed, be gratified to leant 
 from my opponent, Dr. PURCELL, why he would not have had as good 
 -eason for believing in the Koran, as he has for being a Roman Ca- 
 tholic, on the ground of mere tradition, had he happened to have been 
 born in Turkey ? There must be an examination of the testimony, 
 and perception of its truth, on its own intrinsic excellence ; or, a con- 
 viction of its truth upon the evidence which it affords ; else there is no 
 leason in faith it is mere credulity, or superstition. 
 
 The first, and characteristic difference, between the Protestant and 
 tte Roman Catholic, is this : the former believes the scriptures first, 
 and the church afterwards ; whereas, the latter believes the church 
 first, and the scriptures afterwards. " But," says the bishop, "where 
 does the Protestant get the bible to believe, but through the church 1" 
 And that first brings us to the proposition. 
 
 If any person hand me a book, and I read it, and believe it, does my 
 faith in it necessarily rest upon him who hands it to me * And, yet, 
 this is the gigantic strength of all that my opponent can say on this 
 subject. It would be much more plausible, that the Protestants are 
 indebted exclusively to the Roman Catholic church for the book, if 
 Protestants believed all the Roman Catholic traditions, as well as the 
 bible : but, while we reject ihe apocrypha, and the traditions of popery, 
 and receive the bible only, this fact will answer a thousand volumes of 
 sophistry, in proof that our faith in the bible, rests not upon the author- 
 ity of the church of Rome. The fact, that we reject her apocryphal 
 bible and testament, with all other traditions of Roman Catholics, an- 
 cient and modern, resting solely upon her authority, and that we re- 
 tain the bible, (one version of which she Aas,) is incontestable proof, 
 that we receive the bible on other authority than her traditions. Dis- 
 pose of this fact who may, I affirm that my opponent never can ! This 
 illustrious and indisputable fact, places in bold relief the irrelevancy 
 of his effort to show, that our faith in the bible, and his belief in Pe- 
 ter's Roman diocese, or in his being bishop of Rome, rest upon the 
 same authority. That I must believe a letter on the authority of him 
 who carries it, or a book on the authority of him who puts it in my 
 hand, is another of the assumptions of the church of encroachments, 
 resting upon Peter's having been bishop of Rome. 
 
 God created both the sun and the human eye, and he has adapted 
 them to each other. He created the human understanding and the 
 bible, and adapted them to each other. The honest student of nature 
 needs no tradition to prove that man made not the sun ; neither does 
 the humble and candid student of the birdie, need any witness from the 
 bishops or church of Rome, that they did not make the bible. She is, in- 
 deed, a witness for the bible, and the true church, somewhere else ex- 
 isting than in her own communion : for, had it not been for her rivals, 
 who, like Argus, have ever watched the sacred text, how it would 
 have been interpolated and corrupted, her editions of the primitive fa- 
 thers, and other books of which she was the sole or chief depository, 
 abundantly declare. But, having fixed the date, not merely of the first 
 pope, but of the grand schism which originated the Roman Catholic 
 church. I hasten, with all despatch, to show that we have copies of the 
 w 2 17
 
 258 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 bible more ancient than the grand schism, more ancient than the first 
 nope: nay, that were written before the question of a supreme head 
 began to he discussed ; and which copies, in the form of transcription, 
 have never been soiled by the fingers of a monk. I read but a few 
 documents, as I have but little time for this subject ; but I read them 
 from a source of biblical authority, which, on these points, has not 
 been, and, I presume, will not be, disputed ; " Home's Introduction: 
 " Of the few manuscripts known to be extant, which contain the Greek Scrip- 
 tures (that is, the Old Testament, according to the Septuagint version, and the 
 New Testament) there are two which pre-eminently demand the attention of 
 the Biblical student for their antiquity and intrinsic value, viz. The Alexandrian 
 manuscript, which is preserved in the British museum, and the Vatican manuscript 
 deposited in the library of the Vatican Palace at Rome. 
 
 I. The CODEX ALEXANDRINUS, or Alexandrian manuscripts, which is noted by 
 the letter A in Wetstein's and Griesbach's rritical editions of the New Testa- 
 ment, consists of four folio volumes; the three first contain the- whole of the Old 
 Testament, together with the ApocryphaJ books, and the fourth comprises the 
 New Testament, the first epistle of Clement to the Coflnthians, and the Apoc- 
 ryphal psalms ascribed to Solomon. In the New Testament there is wanting the 
 beginning as far as Matth. xxv. 6. vvn$">t efx"<; likewise from John vi. 50. to 
 viii. 52. and from the 2 Cor. iv. 13. to xii. 7. [This manuscript is now preserved 
 in the British museum, where it was deposited in 1753. It was sent as a present to 
 king Charles I. from Cyrillus Lucaris, a native of Crete, and patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople, by Sir Thomas Rowe, ambassador from England to the Grand Seign- 
 ior, in the year 1628. Cyrillus brought it with him from Alexandria, where, 
 probably,, it was written. In a schedule annexed to it, he gives this account; 
 that it was written, as tradition informed them, by Thecla, a noble Egyptian 
 lady, about thirteen hundred years ago, a little after the council of Nice. Ho 
 add's that the name of Thecla at the end of the book was erased; but that thi 
 was the case with other books of the Christians, after Christianity was extin- 
 guished in Egjpt by the Mohammedans: and that recent tradition records the fact 
 of the laceration and erasure of Thecla's name. The proprietor of this manuscript, 
 before it came into the hands of Cyrillus Lucaris, had written an Arabic sub- 
 scription, expressing that this book was said to have been written with the pen 
 of Thecla the. martyr." [Introduction to the critical study and knowledge of 
 the Holy Scriptures, by Thomas Hartwell Home. Vol. II. "pp. 66, 67. 
 
 But, this is not the only ante-papistical manuscript of the scriptu re, 
 now extant. 
 
 II. "THE CODEX VATICANUS, No. 1209, which Wetstein and Griesbach 
 have both noted with the letter B, contests the palm of antiquity with the Alex- 
 andrian manuscript. No fac-simile of it has ever been published. The Roman 
 edition of the Septuagint, printed in 1590, professes to exhibit the text of this 
 manuscript; and in the preface to that edition it is stated to have been written 
 before the year 387, i. e. towards the close of the 4th century: Montfaucon 
 and Blanchini refer it to the 5th or 6th century, and Du Pin to the 7th cen- 
 tury. Professor Hug has endeavored to shew that it was written in the early 
 part of the fourth century; but, from the omission of the Eusebian *icxx*i and 
 T*rxo<, Bishop Marsh concludes with great probability, that it was written be- 
 fore the close of the fifth century. The Vatican manuscript is written on parch- 
 ment or vellum in uncial or capital letters, in three columns on each pa^e, all of 
 which are of the same size, except at the beginning of a book, and without any 
 divisions of chapters, verses, or words, but with accents and spirits. The shape 
 of the letters, and color of the ink, prove that it was written throughout by one 
 and the same careful copyist." Id. ib. p. 74. 
 
 There are also versions older than the papacy, older than the vul- 
 gate, which is itself evidently older than the church of Rome. 
 
 "Syria being visited at a very early period by the preachers of the Christian 
 faith, several translations of the sacred volume were made into the language of 
 that country. The most celebrated of these is the Peschito or Literal ( fersio 
 Simplex,) as it is usually called, on account of its very close adherence to the 
 Hebrew text, from which it was immediately made. The most extravagant as- 
 gertioiu have been advanced concerning its antiquity, some referring it to the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 259 
 
 lime of Solomon and Hiram, while others ascribe it to Asa, the pi jest of Sama- 
 ritans, and a third class, to the apostle Thaddeus. This last tradition is receiv- 
 ed by the Syrian churches; but a more recent date is ascribed to it by modern 
 biblical philologers. Bishop Walton, Carpzov, Leusden, Bishop Lowth, and 
 Dr. Kennicott, fix its date to the first century ; Bauer, and some other German 
 critics, to the second or third century: Jahn fixes it at the latest, to the second 
 century; De Rossi pronounces it to be very ancient, but does not specify any 
 precise date. The most probable opinion is that of Michaelis, who ascribes it to 
 the close of the first or to the earlier part of the second century, at which time 
 the Syrian churches flourished most, and the Christians at Edessa had a temple 
 for divine worship erected after the model of that at Jerusalem: and it is not to 
 he supposed that th'ey would be without a version of the old Testament, th 
 reading of which had been introduced by the apostles." Id. ib. pp.187, 188. 
 
 " An important accession to biblical literature was made a few years since, by 
 the late learned and excellent Dr. Buchanan, to whose assiduous labors the 
 British church in India is most deeply indebted: and who, in his progress 
 among the Syrian churches and Jews of India, discovered and obtained nume 
 rous ancient manuscripts of the scriptures, which are now deposited in the pub- 
 lic library at Cambridge. One of these, which was discovered in a remote Syri- 
 an church near the mountains, is particularly valuable: it contains the old and 
 new Testaments, engrossed with beautiful accuracy in the Esirangelo (or old 
 Syriac,) character, on strong vellum, in large folio, and having three columns in 
 a page. The words of every book are numbered : and the volume illuminated, 
 but not after the European manner, the initial letters having no ornament. 
 Though somewhat injured by time or neglect, the ink being in certain places 
 obliterated, still the letters can, in general, be distinctly traced from the im- 
 press of the pen, or from the partial corrosion of the ink. The Syrian church as- 
 signs a high date to this manuscript, which in the opinion of Mr. Yeates, who 
 has published a collation of the Pentateuch, was written about the seventh 
 century. In looking over this manuscript, Dr. Buchanan found the very first 
 emendation of the Hebrew text proposed by Dr. Kennicott, which doubtless is 
 the true reading. Id. ib. p. 189. 
 
 Now, if we of the west of Europe, did receive the bible first from 
 our Roman Catholic ancestors. I ask, would that make us dependent 
 on their traditions alone for that book ; any more than A. B., who 
 lived on one of the seven mouths of the Nile, from which he supplies 
 himself with water, was, on that account, absolutely dependent on the 
 branch nearest his dwelling. Tell him that he is absolutely and alone 
 dependent on it for water ; and he will say, " No ; but it is more con- 
 venient to supply myself from this stream : there are six other branch- 
 es, from which I could supply myself, were it necessary for my life or 
 comfort." So say we. We have Jews, Greeks, Armenians, and Pro- 
 testants, from the first schism, A. D. 250, down to the present day; 
 to say nothing of the ancient sceptics, Celsus, Porphyry, Julian, and 
 others ; and the ancient heretics, fronvwhose writings, together with 
 those of the ir fidel pagans, we could almost compile a New Testa- 
 ment, containing every thing read, not only since, but before the coun- 
 cil of Laodicea. Du Pin himself acknowledges, that before that coun- 
 cil, even in the third century, the scriptures were read as they are now. 
 But, as for our independence of all Roman Catholic tradition, on this 
 subject, many other proofs may be offered. The notorious and glorious 
 fa.".t, however, that Protestants have rejected the Roman Catholic rule 
 of faith, apocrypha, traditions, and all, and even her own vulgate, as 
 autl.entic, will for ever frown out of countenance, the groundless im- 
 putations of my too credulous opponent. [Time expired.] 
 
 t Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 My friends, have you ever seen the Anti-Christ? Look at him now 
 (holding up a book.) This morning, I endeavored to shew that Ma-
 
 260 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 hemmed was the fittest beast, to illustrate the mysterious prophecy; 
 and I stated that many names (fourteen) could be found to correspond 
 with the numbers 6G6. I now distinctly shew the page and book, 
 where the computation is made and the last of these names is that of 
 God himself. Cerdenus, a Greek writer, testifies th^t the name of 
 Mahommed, as it was written in his time, will exactly spell the beast. 
 On this subject, the reader who is not content with the article, Anti- 
 Christ, in Robinson's Calmet, may refer to Walmesley's General His- 
 tory of the Christian church, p. 250. 
 
 I do not give my own theory of the matter. There have been too 
 many theorists already, to need more. I believe the beast was neither 
 Luther, nor Mahommed, nor the pope. This is not an article of faith 
 with me, nor with any Catholic. I respect the prophecy, but I await 
 to decide the questions until ' Revelations' be what the term imports. 
 I have here a history of the popes, in French, published, as the title 
 page says " at the expense of the holy Father." Of course it is to be 
 understood to be a hoax, and it deserves to be so considered. It tells 
 a heap of lies about him ; among others he was to be destroyed for evei 
 in 1745. We may then write his epitaph. 
 
 I do not know on what grounds my friend asserted yesterday, that 
 the 2nd. commandment was not a part of the Catholic rule of morals 
 I have already exhibited various catechisms, in use in the United 
 States, in all of which, every word of the commandments is found. I 
 suppose my friend overlooked the fact. I was glad to hear the gentle- 
 man speak so highly of Michaelis. It showed his literary knowledge; 
 and perhaps he may be interested in knowing that when but one edi- 
 tion of his works could be obtained in Paris, in 1824, I procured it. 
 Here it happens by a singular coincidence, unknown to him, to be. 1 
 invite him to examine in it the commandments, and he will find them 
 fully and faithfully rendered in every Catholic Bible and Testament 
 Will .my friend tell the audience when the mazordic points, without 
 which the understanding of the Bible, if not impossible, is very diffi 
 cult, were first introduced 1 and by whom ? 
 
 Do all Bible readers know, as they ought to know, that in the old 
 Hebrew Bible, there is no division of verses, much less of chapters? 
 That a Roman Catholic cardinal had a good deal to do in making the 
 division and that they were not Protestants, but Rabbis, who suffixed 
 the points which serve instead of vowels to Hebrew words, which 
 have none but consonants alone ; accordingly, as these vowels are 
 placed, the Hebrew root may signify whatever the pointer pleases ? 
 The context of the oldest known meaning must be the only criterion. 
 But I should like to know how one of our good, plain, homebred and 
 industrious citizens can accomplish this task for himself. Even learn- 
 ed men made themselves ridiculous by their mazoretic fixtures and 
 translations, and Luther, who was a good Catholic scholar laughing 
 at the absurdity of their versions of passages in the Bible observed 
 that "In the beginning the cuckoo ate the sparrow and the feathers," 
 would be just as good a translation of the first line of Genesis, as some 
 of theirs. I will return to this subject. 
 
 It appears that Birds and Beasts of prey may represent peace, as 
 well as cruelty. England then suffers no disparagement from her 
 Lion, nor the United States, from her Eagle. The gentleman sug- 
 gests a dove for the latter. I have not the slightest objection, and if
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGION. 261 
 
 the criticism I have heard be correct, the bird lately stamped on th new 
 American coin resembles a chicken, more than a bird of prey. It looks 
 as if it were more to be preyed upon than preying, and more sinned 
 against than sinning. 
 
 Before I come to the very important point of the Bible, I must not 
 forget to quote the testimony of the eloquent Southey, to shew what 
 anti-Christs the popes were, and how they displayed their anti-christ- 
 ian spirit, in the conversion of Old England. 
 
 " That Gregory, who was afterwards raised to the popedoiu, and is distin- 
 guished from succeeding popes of the same name (one alone excepted,) by 
 the rank of saint, and from him, by the appellation of the Great, was one day 
 Jed into the market-place at Rome, with a great concourse of persons, to look 
 at a large importation of foreign merchandise, which had just arrived. Among 
 other articles, there were some boys exposed for sale like cattle. There was 
 nothing remarkable in this, for it was the custom every where in that age, and 
 had been so from time immemorial: but he was struck by the appearance of the 
 boys, their line clear skins, the beauty of their flaxen or golden hair, and their 
 ingenuous countenances; so that he asked from what country they came; and 
 when he was told from the island of Britain, where the inhabitants in general 
 were of that complexion and comeliness, he inquired if the people were Chris- 
 tians, and sighed for compassion at hearing that they were in a state of Pagan 
 darkness ...... From that day the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons became a 
 
 favorite object with Gregory ........ Accordingly he despatched thither 
 
 forty missionaries from a monastery, which he had founded at Rome ....... 
 
 VVhen, therefore, Augustine (who was their chief) and his companions landed 
 in the isle of Thanet, they came not as obscure men, unprotected and unaccred- 
 ited; but with recommendations from the kings of France, and as messengers 
 from a potentate, whose spiritual authority was acknowledged and obeyed 
 throughout that part of the world, to which the northern nations were accils- 
 tomedto look as the seat of empire and superior civilization. They made their 
 arrival known to Ethelbert, and requested an audience. They approached in 
 procession, bearing a silver crucifix, and a portrait of pur Savior, upon a ban- 
 ner adorned with gold, and chaunting the litany. The king welcomed them cour- 
 teously, and ordered them to be seated: after which, Augustine stood up, and, 
 through an interpreter, whom he had brought from France, delivered the pur- 
 port of his mission, in a brief, but well ordered and impressive discourse. He 
 was come to the kin^, and to that kingdom, he said, for their eternal good, a 
 messenger of good tidings; offering to their acceptance perpetual happiness, 
 here mid hereafter, if the}' would accept his words. The Creator and Redeemer 
 had opened the kingdom of heaven to the human race: for God so loved the 
 world that he had sent into it his only son, as that son himself testified, to be- 
 come a man among the children of mAi, and suffer death upon the cross, in 
 atonement for their sins. That incarnate divinity had been made manifest by 
 innumerable miracles. Christ had stilled the winds and waves, and walked upon 
 the waters: he had healed diseases, and restored the dead to life: finally, he had 
 
 and 
 
 risen from the dead himself, that we might rise again through him, and had as- 
 cended into heaven, that he might receive us there in his glory; and he 
 come again to judge both the quick and the. dead. " Think not," he proce 
 
 cended into heaven, that he might receive us there in his glory; and he would 
 gain to judge both the quick and the. dead. " Think not," he proceeded, 
 " O most excellent king, that we are superstitious, because we have come from 
 
 Rome into thv dominion*, for the sake of the salvation of thee and of thy peo- 
 ple; we have done this, being constrained by great love: for that which we de- 
 sire, above all the pomps and delights of this world, is to have our fellow-crea- 
 tures partakers with ourselves in the kingdom of heaven, &c." [Southey's Book 
 of the Church, chap. iii. p. 23. etc. 
 
 My friend proposed a question, which he thought difficult. Why 
 do I believe the bible? He said my answer would be, because the 
 church believes it ; and this, he says, is like Peter giving a character 
 to Paul, and Paul to Peter. I reciprocate the question of the gentle- 
 man, and he says he believes in the church, because he believes in the 
 bible. Thus the bible and church testify to each other in his theory, 
 and the difficulty is infinitely greater for a Protestant, than for a Ca
 
 262 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tholic. In fact, for a Catholic the question is not susceptible of any 
 difficulty, whatever. One word will shew that we are right. WHICH 
 WAS PRIOR? The bible or the church? Manifestly, the church was the 
 older. The apostles did not wait to have thousands of bibles copied, 
 and to freight vessels with them, and sail-as supercargoes of the hea- 
 venly merchandise, to the distant nations of the earth. " Faith" says 
 St. Paul, " comes from hearing" There were millions of converts to 
 Christianity, whole nations were converted to the Savior, by preach* 
 ing, before the different books composing the present bible, were de- 
 termined to be genuine Scripture and collected into one volume. This 
 was not done before the beginning of the fourth century. The church 
 was therefore prior to the bible : and if the bible had never been writ- 
 ten, the gospel could have been preached and believed, as it was in 
 the early ages, without its aid. How did the apostles make converts 
 without the bible? They addressed themselves to the reason of the 
 unconverted nations. They convinced them, if necessary, of the ex- 
 istence of God, by the spectacle of the divine wisdom and power, dis- 
 played in the creation and preservation of the world. They appealed 
 to the natural law, whose precepts were written by the finger of God, 
 on tablets of flesh, the hearts of men, before they were engraven on 
 stone, amidst the thunder and lightnings of Sinai. Thus did they 
 find the great primary truths of natural religion, with regard to 
 both doctrine and morals, inculcated by the contemplation of the 
 visible wonders of creation and the testimony of the human heart. 
 They next proceeded to convince their hearers of the unity of God, 
 and the sinfulness and grossness of idolatry, of their having departed 
 from the moral law, of the darkness in which sin had involved the 
 human race, of our incompetency for our own cure, of the divine com- 
 miseration of our misery, of the descent of Jesus Christ, his doctrine, 
 his miracles, his charity, his establishment of his church, his sacra- 
 ments and the various means of grace, his promises to be with his 
 apostles, He and his Holy Spirit, for ever, his death, &c. The holiness 
 of the apostles' lives, the cruel death with which they sealed the truth 
 they had proclaimed, conciliated the belief and completed the conversion 
 of their hearers. "IwilKngly," says Paschal, "believe the witnesses, 
 who let their throats be cut In attest the truth of what they declart." The 
 bible could not shed its blood to attest its divine origin. The ignorant, 
 who are a large proportion of the human race, could not read it; the 
 learned, and the pious, and the sincere, as every one knows, found it 
 a task far above their strength, to distinguish genuine from spurious 
 scripture. Before the invention of printing, men could not procure 
 bibles: since the invention of printing, they read them to introduce a 
 flood of new sects; so that there are now as many religions, almost, 
 as there are different versions or different readers of the scriptures. If, 
 on the contrary, there is anything clearly taught in the scriptures, it is 
 the authority of the church, which, without aid from the bible, not all 
 composed when the first apostles preached, had fully established her 
 authority, and, independ; ntly of her miracles, proved, by the preter- 
 natural success of her preaching, that God was indeed with her, as he 
 had promised, teaching all nations, and perpetually suggesting to her 
 all truth. Hence, we believe in the church first; and on the faith of 
 the evidences which I have enumerated, we believe in the bible, which 
 the church presents to us, vouching for its purity and authenticity.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 263 
 
 The bible obtained, sanctions the authority of the church, and confirms 
 our faith. Here, all is consistent, and our submission to the church is 
 reasonable. The Protestant divines, Hooker and Chillingworth, allow 
 that the bible cannot bear testimony to itself: even Luther was forced 
 to acknowledge it. " We are obliged," says he, " to yield many 
 things to the papists ; that with them is the word of God, that we re- 
 ceived ffom them ; otherwise, we should have known nothing at all 
 about it." (Comment on John, c. 16.) Hence the remarkable saying 
 of St. Augustine : " I should not believe the gospel itself, if the 
 Catholic church did not oblige me to do so." Will my friend inform 
 me, why he rejects an authentic work, of great excellence, written by 
 St. Barnabas ; who is termed, in scripture, an apostle, and declared to 
 be full of the hcly Ghost, (Acts xiv. 24, xi. 24 ;) and receives, as 
 canonical, parts of the New Testament, which were not written by 
 apostles at all, viz. the gospels of St. Mark and St. Luke ? The original 
 text of Moses, and the ancient prophets, was destroyed with the tem- 
 ple and city of Jerusalem, by the Assyrians under Nebuchadnezzar; and 
 the authentic copies which replaced them, perished in the persecution 
 of Antiochus. How were these books restored 1 Paul wrote his 
 Epistle to the Romans, and entrusted it to the deaconess Phoebe. His 
 Epistle to the Ephesians, he confided to the disciple Tychicus. How 
 can we be sure of these epistles, as they now stand in the Testament? 
 Was it not the corruption of the bible by Queen Elizabeth's bishops, 
 that caused Jarnes I. to have a new translation to be made ? But, 1 
 should be endless, if I enumerated all the insurmountable difficulties, 
 which a Protestant encounters at the very fir^st step of his journey in 
 quest of a religion. He must turn Catholic at the very outset, and take 
 the bible,, as he gets it, on authority, or remain an unbeliever all his life* 
 And he must believe that authority to be infallible, or he can never be sure 
 that the bible it gives him is divine. Catholics have faith by baptism, as 
 Protestants have ; hut the latter lose it when they adopt, on arriving 
 at mature age, the Protestant principle, that every man must find out 
 his religion for himself, from the bible. Many Protestants are not ad- 
 monished of the danger of their situation, and do not themselves reflect 
 on these difficulties. As long as they are sincere, and do the best they 
 can to obey God and conscience, the Catholic church excuses them, in 
 the words of St. Augustine : " Let thoSe treat yon harshly, who know not 
 how hard it is to get rid of old prejudices. Let those treat you harshly, 
 who have not learned how very hard it is to purify the interior eye, and 
 render it capable of contemplating the sun of the soul, truth. But, as 
 to us : we are far from this disposition towards persons who are separ- 
 ated from us, not by errors of their own invention, but by their being 
 entangled in those of others. We are so far from this disposition, that 
 we pray to God, that in refuting the false opinions of those whom you 
 follow, not from malice, but from imprudence, he would bestow upon 
 us that spirit of peace, which feels no other sentiment than charity, no 
 other interest than that of Jesus Christ, no other wish but for your 
 salvation." Had we been born Mahommedans, we would, perhaps, 
 live Mahommedans. Thank God, we are not. But, this does not re- 
 quire us to throw away our faith. It would be too long to notice all 
 the gentleman says. I attend to the most important. 
 
 Now, I will venture to assert, that there is not a Protestant in this 
 house, who can say. that he has found out all the tenets which he be-
 
 264 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 lieres, by reading the bible alone. He believes them, because his 
 parents, and teachers, and minister, his catechism, taught them ; 
 or a hundred other influences may have been brought to bear upon his 
 mind and his affections, favorable to those peculiar tenets. It is not at 
 all the case with Protestant children, any more than with Catholic chil- 
 dren, that reason is \hefasl to lead them to their belief. Let each one 
 candidly examine his own heart, and ask himself if he was not as 
 much educated in those doctrines which he now professes, as the Cath- 
 olics were in theirs. 
 
 How can he be sure, if he indeed possess an authentic copy of the 
 scriptures, that he understands them 1 " The word of God," says the 
 Protestant bishop, Walton, " does not consist in mere letters, whether 
 writ f en or printed, but in the sense of it; which no one can better in- 
 lerpiet than the true church, to which Christ committed this same 
 pledge." (Polyglot Proleg. ch. v.) 
 
 My opponent says, there was a copy of the scriptures found, which 
 the fingers of a monk had never soiled. And how does he go about to 
 establish this proposition ! He quoted Home. I will take up this 
 very work, and prove, while I admit that Home was a learned writer, 
 that he fell into some very unlearned blunders. But how does Home 
 say that my friend is right? He says, that this very manuscript was 
 found in one of the twenty-two monasteries of Mount Athos ! ! Lo ! 
 there was a monk at the bottom of it after all ! [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 My friends, there is any thing but order in our discussion I mean 
 logical order, as respects the duties of a respondent. Now, certain- 
 ly, this will abundantly appear in the report of this debate. 
 
 The gentleman has not once, as yet, replied to my speeches in regu- 
 lar sequence ; but, after the interval of a night, a day, and sometimes 
 two days, he responds to some point or argument : and then his re- 
 ply consists either in accusing me of misunderstanding, or misstating 
 what he has said ; or perhaps in denying my authorities, or by intro- 
 ducing sonre extract, or tradition, or opinion, from some great Pro- 
 testant, or some good Catholic, or some excogitation of his own. 
 His last speech was a happy illustration of Ovid's 
 
 " congestaque eblem 
 Non bene junctarum discordia seiuina rerum." 
 
 [Metamor. lib. I. 
 
 And, certainly, his mirthfulness and 'gravity were in unison with 
 the dignity of his reply ; and equally fallible as respects effect of any 
 sort upon his audience. This rhetoric soon wears out. It is but an 
 echo, a sound, a shadow ; the crisis calls for something more solid. But 
 if it cannot be found, I must submit to interruption, and turn aside to 
 notice the gleanings of his last and best reflections upon the prophecies. 
 
 The gentleman has given us from his library some ridiculous puns 
 upon the name of Mahomet. He does not, and under his hard desti- 
 ny he cannot, always discriminate the precise point in debate. It is 
 not about the name of an individual, such as Ludovicus, or Maho- 
 met; but of a people a community a kingdom. His second mis- 
 take is, that if it were a personal name, the number of the.name of 
 Mahomet as given in his example only makes 503. His name pro- 
 perly written is equal to only 463. He ought also to have decipher-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 265 
 
 cl, or his author, whether his name should be taken as 'it is written 
 in Arabic or in Greek. But whether he take it in Arabic or in Greek, 
 it will not in Grecian numerals, and certainly not in Arabic, equal 
 666. So fails his effort at both reason and ridicule to dispose of this 
 morning's argument from prophecy. I again repeat, that on this point, 
 as en every other, my argument appears unassailable. 
 
 Yesterday my opponent was asked, where infallibility resided ; to- 
 day he answers by asking, where shall we find the mind ? In the 
 head, stomach, hands, feet, or where? This is not a parallel case. 
 The question is, as usual, mistaken, or misapplied. It is, wheie is 
 the month of infallibility 1 when I desire an infallible response, where 
 shall I hear it] Where is the tongue of infallibility ? If the church 
 possess infallibility and never decides a question by any organ ne- 
 ver can utter an answer, it is worth no more than a diamond in the 
 depths of the Atlantic. 
 
 The alpha and omega of the proofs offered by the bishop for the ex 
 istence of infallibility, which has been so often repeated, and which 
 I promised sometime to notice, is this: "lam with you." Now, lo- 
 gic asks, what means " I am with you 1" as proving infallibility, un- 
 less " I am with you," is a phrase already incontrovertibly established 
 to mean infallibility. But what says bible fact 1 There are, at least, four 
 meanings of the phrase. I am with you, personally, providentially, gra- 
 ciously, or with miraculous power. It could not be the first : for he 
 was leaving them personally. It could not be the second ; because 
 that was common to all good men. Thus God was with Joseph, with 
 Jacob, with all the patriarchs, and with all good men. It could not 
 be that God was to be with them graciously; for that too, is common 
 to all Christians. As the apostles said to all good Christians, " The Lord 
 be with you all," it could not be a special promise to the apostles. 
 What remains then"! Mark, the evangelist, explains : "These signs 
 shall follow. In my name shall they cast out devils : they shall 
 speak with new tongues, serpents shall they take away; and if they 
 drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them. They shall impose 
 hands on the sick and they shall be whole." So the Rhemish Testa- 
 ment reads Mark's account of the promise, " I am with you." Again : 
 after the ascension of the Messiah, the evangelist relates, v. 20. " But 
 they " (the apostles) " going forth preached every where : our Lord 
 working with //, and confirming the word with signs that followed." 
 
 This, then, is the proof of infallibility, as interpreted by Mark in 
 the canon Catholic Testament. Now, does not this confine the pro- 
 mise to the apostles ? Can the popes work miracles ? Can the bish- 
 ops 1 Such a miracle, forsooth, as the existence of the Roman Ca- 
 Iholic church in the western empire, after the rise of Mahometanism 
 in the east ! A splendid miracle, truly ! That proves as much for 
 Mahometanism and Paganism, as for the popes of Rome : for all 
 these systems rose upon the ruin, and also withstood the shocks of 
 other systems ! 
 
 When Peter said to the cripple, " Silver and gold I have none ; but 
 such a* I hnvf I give thee In the name of Jesus take up your bed and 
 walk," he felt that he possessed something in the promise " 1 am 
 with you." Can any of his successors speak in this style: silver 
 and gold I have none : but such as I have (the power of Christ) I 
 givn thee ? 
 
 The gentleman's dissertation on the vicious circle, leaves him 
 x 34
 
 266 REBATE ON THE 
 
 where it found him ; believing the church first and the bible after- 
 wards; and making the one prove the other: but he will never dis 
 pose of it. He is like the eccentric witness, whose veracity could 
 only be proved by the principal : and yet the principal depends foi 
 his veracity upon the witness. The bishop for a little while turned 
 Protestant, and then he affirmed that he believed in Christ on the ev- 
 idence of his own miracles ; and that evidence he found in the bible, 
 and that bible he interpreted for himself. Thus he became a Protest- 
 ant, when he attempted to solve that Gordion knot. But as soon as 
 he had, by the Protestant rule, obtained faith in Christ, he instantly 
 relapsed into the embrace of holy mother, and denounced the bridge 
 over which he escaped from the island. 
 
 But the gentleman asked a question which has puzzled wise men to 
 answer. A child however of four years old could have asked Newton 
 a question that he could not have answered in a thousand years, 
 "How cai you prove the bible 1 ?" says the bishop. Does it prove 
 itself 1 ? I \.ll imitate him, this once, and ask, does nature prove it- 
 self] Does God prove his own existence without his works or by 
 his works'? Must there be another universe created to prove this 1 
 This is a question no one 1 will put, unless on the hypothesis that no 
 man can prove a universe to exist but by other testimony than itself. 
 So the bible proves itself to be the word of God, as nature proves it- 
 self to be the work of God. Thus has the supreme intelligence stamp- 
 ed the impress of himself both on nature and revelation. David says, 
 " Lord, thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." I have 
 other reasons, if necessary, to prove how the bible was put together. 
 Many a Christian has been made so by the single testimony of one 
 evangelist ; or by a single epistle of Paul. We have four gospels; 
 but one would have been enough ; and as much as many individuals 
 had: The whole Christian doctrine might be learned from Paul alone, 
 from perhaps the half of his epistles. Paul and Peter wrote, and said 
 much more by divine inspiration than is preserved or recorded. Sa 
 did the ancient prophets. We need not to prove, in order to our faith, 
 who collected the writings into one volume, any more, than who col- 
 lected all the wor-ds of Christ, that are reported. 
 
 Cardinal Bellarmine says : " There is sure to be some doctor at 
 the head of a schism." Heresiarchs are generally men of letters. 
 Where then the pertinency of those remarks about the unlearned wres- 
 ting the scriptures'? The original means untaught, uniraciabte persons 
 rather than unlearned. Philosophers, as they love to be called, are 
 generally the most unteachable, and the greatest wresters and perver- 
 ters of the scriptures. Peter had those too wise to learn, in his eye, 
 when he spoke of wresting the scripture ; and not the simple, honest 
 and unassuming laity. Let a man sit down as Mary sat, at the feet of 
 Christ, and humble himself as a pupil ought; he will then hear the 
 voice of God, and understand it too. He will then discern how it is, 
 that all God's children are taught by God, and that there is none thai 
 teacheth like him. 
 
 Rather wittily than logically, the gentleman gives the moifks some 
 credit, for handling the Alexandrine manuscript. Be it known howev 
 er, that monkery began in St. Anthony's time; and that this said copy 
 is older than the founder of monasteries. Because Tacitus. Livy, Hor 
 ace, and Virgil passed through their hands, are we dependent on thonc
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 267 
 
 for all our knowledge of Greek and Roman letters? The monks handled 
 copies that they never wrote. But that gave those copies neither 
 more nor less credit. I did not mean that one ought not to thumb the 
 scriptures in reading them, when I spoke of them being soiled by the 
 hands of a monk. I have then, so far as objection has heen made, as I con- 
 conceive, sustained the sixth proposition. Will the president moderator 
 please have the 5th proposition read] [The 5th prop, was here read.] 
 PROP. V. Her notions of purgatory, indulgences, auricular confession, remis- 
 sion of sins, transubstantiation, supererogation, &c. essential elements of ner sys- 
 tem, art immoral in their tendency, and injurious to the well-being of society, 
 religious an( ' political. 
 
 Now, my friends, I want to strike a blow at the main root of the 
 whole papal ^superstition : for that root is found in the proposition just 
 now read. I' have but little time to do it, and shall, therefore, march 
 right up to the point at once. 
 
 The capital, distinguishing doctrine of Protestantism, next to the 
 bible alone as the rule and measure of Christian faith and manners, 
 and the right and duty of all to read and examine it is, that the death of 
 Jesus Christ was not simply that of a martyr : but that " be died /in- 
 cur sins, according to the scriptures." That the death or sacri/ke of 
 Christ is the great sin offering, and the only sin offeringfis a cardinal 
 doctrine of Protestantism ; and that there is now no priest, nor vic- 
 tim, nor sacrifice, nor altar, nor sin offering on earth follows, as a 
 matter of course. Jesus was " the Lamb of God" " Himself the sin 
 offering and the priest." He expiated our sins in his own body on the 
 cross." " His blood cleanses from all sin." Papal priests, penances, 
 confessions, masses, remissions, purgatories, intercessions of saints, 
 angels, and almost all their ceremonies, arise from the notion, the 
 radical mistake that the sacrifice of Christ, as a sin offering, an atone- 
 ment, a reconciliation was some way deficient. Although we can 
 trace supereroduun, purgatory, penances, lustrations, the intercessions 
 of angels and dead men, &c. to the philosophers and dreamers of the 
 east their divine Platos, Pythagorases and Aristotles : still the im- 
 mediate origin and cause of all these errors may be traced to ignorance 
 of the bible doctrine of the priesthood of Christ, the antitype of that of 
 Aaron and Melchisidec. It was Dryden, a Roman Catholic poet, if I 
 mistake not, who said that the dos pou sto, which Archimedes sought 
 in vain by which to raise the globe, was found by the popes of Rome 
 in the doctrine of purgatory. That was the philosopher's stone the 
 lever which lifts the world which has brought more gold to Rome, 
 than the discovery of America itself. 
 
 My friends, the doctrine of purgatory with all its correlates is bard 
 on two errors. 
 
 1st. That man can do more than his duly : 
 
 2d. That something may be added to the sacrifice of Christ to give it 
 more value or efficacy. 
 
 Now, I affirm, that no created being, not a Gabriel, or Uriel, or Raph- 
 ael, or the highest of the angelic hosts, can do an act of superero- 
 gation. No man can, by any thought, word, or action, make God his 
 debtor. " Who," says Paul, " has first given to the Lord, and it shall 
 be recompensed to him again] For, of him, and through him, and to 
 him, are all things." Jesus told his disciples, that when they had 
 done all that was commanded them, they had jnly done Mieir duty, 
 and were to him unprofitable servants. Tiie greatest suiiit that
 
 268 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ever lived is not more holy than he ought to be. or his own account 
 This single thought evaporates that sea of merit which has performed 
 such wonders in Roman story. 
 
 No human being has any thing to give to God ; and therefore none 
 can merit from him any thing. If a man's salvation depended on his 
 shedding a single tear, where could he find it? The heart that feels 
 and the tear that flows, clear as chrystal down the cheek of the most 
 devoted saint, are "of God's creation. And, therefore, it is out of the 
 question, to conceive how any work of merit, as respects God, is pos- 
 sible for angel or for man. . 
 
 Were a saint to turn pilgrim and peregrinate on his naked knees 
 the four quarters of the globe, were he to give his body to the flames, 
 when God asks it, or duty requires it ; he has deserved nothing from 
 God, on the ground of merit. He has only employed the powers that 
 God gave him, and used his faculties in a way consonant to the de- 
 signs of him that gave them. And sooner will a man add new glo- 
 ries to the sun or create new luminaries in the heavens, than add one 
 attribute of merit or of power to the sacrifice of Christ. " He fin- 
 ished transgression : made an end of sin offerings, brought in an ever- 
 lasting justification;" and left nothing to be done to make his sacri- 
 fice more meritorious or efficient. 
 
 Works of supererogation, auricular confession, masses for sins, 
 transubstantiation, purgatory, with all the appurtenances thereto be- 
 longing, are the veriest ghosts of paganism the phantoms of infatu- 
 ated reason, attempts against the dignity of God and the supremacy, 
 as well as the true and proper divinity and dignity of his Son. 
 
 This superstition, this man of sin, stands with his two feet upon 
 the two greatest lies in human history. He places his right foot on 
 the first and his left foot on the second. Need I say that the former 
 affirms that the sacrifice of God's own SON is insufficient as a sin offer- 
 ing .- and that the latter teaches that man can do more than his duty to 
 God. Here then, I say to my opponent, I will measure swords with 
 him. Let him meet me on these too points, then it will be an easy 
 task to dispose of his imaginary purgatories, transubstantiation, pen- 
 ances, works of supererogation, &c. &c. and to shew that so far from 
 bringing glory to God or righteousness to men, they are positively, 
 naturally, and necessarily opposed to both. Let him try his strength 
 of scriptural argument and reason on these cardinal points, and it 
 will, as our time is so far exhausted, save the tediousness of nume- 
 rous details. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 4 o'clock, P. ML 
 BISHOP PURCELL risps 
 
 My friends, it is imperative upon me to make one exposition before 
 I proceed. Many of you were here when my friend would have led 
 you into a gross mistake, respecting the Catholic church, by quoting 
 a pretended extract from Liguori. I asserted then, that nothing could 
 be found in that writer's works to substantiate the odious charge, to 
 give it so much as a semblance of truth. I have now before me the 
 entire works of Liguori, and I have placed them in the presence of 
 my friend, Mr. Campbell. The,9th volume has an index, containing 
 every word of any impo; tance, and I repeat, that after a search through 
 the whole nine volumes, nothing like the quotation of last evening can 
 be found. I have now placed the book in the hands of Professor
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 269 
 
 Biggs, of Lane seminary, one of the moderators, and a Protestant of 
 the Presbyterian denomination, if I do not mistake, and I will leave 
 it to him, or any other intelligent and candid man, to say to you 
 whether the fact is as my friend has stated, or the very contrary of 
 what he has stated. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. Be so good as to explain the matter fully. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. I will explain the exact state of the case. Mr. 
 Smith, the author of the translation, from whom my friend read this, 
 as well as many other things, has given a false quotation, and made 
 Liguori say, what he never said. The facts are these : a canon of the 
 council of Trent, and Liguori, according to the canon, say, " that if 
 a priest falls by criminal intercourse, as specified, from the holy 
 state of purity, to which he is bound by a voluntary, deliberate, and 
 solemn vow, he shall be deprived of a large portion of his salary for 
 the first offence. If he does not refrain after admonition and such 
 punishment, he is again admonished, and deprived of his whole salary, 
 and suspended from all his functions as a priest in the Catholic church. 
 But after the third admonition, if he is still incorrigible, he is excom- 
 municated, and cut off from the church, even as St. Paul cut off the 
 incestuous man of Corinth." 1st. Ep. Corinth, ch. 5. v. 5. Nowhere, 
 in any part of these volumes, is it said that a priest may sin thus upon 
 paying a fine, &c. 
 
 Thus, my friends, you see how the poisonous fountains of error and 
 prejudice have been swelling over the land, and infecting the public 
 mind, until many an honest and upright man has thought, when he 
 denounced us for our (imputed) doctrines, he was doing God a service. 
 Were he aware of the imposition practised on his credulity, he would, 
 I have no doubt, have turned his indignation on more deserving victims. 
 " If ice leave off slandering them,' 1 '' said the ministers of Amsterdam, 
 to Vossius, who remonstrated with them on their injustice to the Ca- 
 tholics, " our people will soon leave us." " We shall do no good with the, 
 people" said Shaftesbury, speaking of the Mocedo plot, "if we cannot 
 make them swallow greater nonsense than this." " Thou shall not bear false 
 witness against thy neighbor," is a commandment which Maria Monk 
 and her reverend protectors reckon not to belong to the " weightier 
 things of the law." Their stale calumnies are paid for with the blood- 
 money ! Our doctrine, many of its ministerial adversaries know to be 
 pare and holy; but, overwhelmed with confusion, whenever they at- 
 tempt argument, they have no resource but in addressing themselves 
 to the prejudices of their implicit believers. These mock at Catholics 
 for "hearing the church ;" and whom do they hear? 
 
 As to the bible, the whole difficulty is to be gone over again and 
 again. Every new translation, it seems, lies open to objections on 
 grave and important grounds. I have here a paper, printed at Kana- 
 wha, in Cabell county, Virginia. In it a considerable class of Bap- 
 tists, I think they are, quarrel with their brethren near Zoar, in Ohio, 
 and quarrel with the bible. They insist that all the existing transla- 
 tions of it should be rejected, and a new one .commenced for them- 
 selves from the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures if they get 
 them ! They can never get a bible they are sure of. They cannot get 
 the original Hebrew in which the gospel of St. Matthew was written. 
 St. Jerome says he had seen it, and that is all we know of it since. 
 They cannot in twelve months of the time that the getting up of their 
 bible will require, determine, on grounds satisfactory to a biblical
 
 270 DKBATE ON THE 
 
 critic, and on Protestant principles, why they adopt or reject, as the 
 event may be, the seventh verse, of the fifth chapter, of the 1st Epistle 
 of St. John. 
 
 While this paper was being printed at Charleston, Virginia, the 
 " Churchman," at New York, perhaps at the same hour, was printing 
 the very proof I have read to you, in favor of the Catholic doctrine of 
 confession. Let the Burmese and all others, Pagans or Christians, 
 lie on their oars, till the new scriptures appear. Then let printeis, 
 ag its and missionaries, be well paid, and the cumbrous machinery 
 set to work, and compass heaven and earth to make one proselyte, 
 who surely cannot be more settled in his faith than they who thus do 
 spise the " inspired, authoritative, perpetual, catholic, perfect and in 
 telligible rule." 
 
 He says the documents I have read are not pertinent. Now he cer- 
 tainly did not suspect that I thought he would so consider them. In his 
 estimation, there is nothing pertinent, logical, relevant, in all this dis- 
 cussion, but what he says himself. This he has neglected no oppor- 
 tunity of impressing on our attention. But the public will be the best 
 judge, and they can see through the attempts of either disputant to 
 forestall their impartial and unbiassed verdict. The printed report of 
 this controversy, will shew the pertinency or impertinency of our re- 
 spective arguments, and, for my own part, I have not the slightest feai 
 of the result. 
 
 I am very far from believing that I am worthy .of advocating the 
 holy cause, in which my humble talents, and all my heart's affections 
 are enlisted, but such is my confidence in the power of that truth, 
 which I embraced on conviction as soon as I was able to judge for 
 myself, and whose evidences have been, ever since, brightening to my 
 understanding, the more I examine them, that I ask no more than that 
 my unadorned arguments should fall into the hands of thinking men. 
 
 My opponent says that the whole structure of Catholicism is an as- 
 sumption, and rests upon two lies. The gentleman pledged himself at 
 the commencement of this debate, to use no opprobrious language, and 
 I promised not to set him the example. How he has kept his word, 
 as the terms in which his propositions are expressed are so very re- 
 fined, let these, by which they are defended, decide. I will not bandy 
 epithets with him, but I must say that the Catholic church has two 
 sound legs to stand upon. The gentleman tenders her crutches which 
 she modestly declines, with the suggestion that as his argument is 
 lame he may have occasion for them himself! I will argue these va- 
 rious doctrines which he has enumerated and prove them all to be 
 founded in the bible, and believed, in all past ages, from the time of 
 Christ and his apostles. The gentleman has misrepresented, or he 
 does not understand our doctrine. We believe that there is no other 
 name under heaven, but the name of Jesus given to men, whereby 
 they may be saved. Acts iv. 12. We believe that "by one oblation 
 Christ hath perfected far ever them that are sanctified" Heb. x. 14. 
 That atonement by His vicarious sacrifice, if not the first, is one of the 
 great cardinal doctrines of the Roman Catholic church, no man who 
 pretends to any acquaintance with that doctrine, will, or can venture 
 to deny. Christ has paid an all-sufficient price for our ransom. But 
 do we arraign the sacrifice of Christ of insufficiency, when we sanc- 
 tify the Sabbath, when we give alms to the poor, when we abstain from
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 271 
 
 evil, w'aen we hear preaching, or go to prayer? When St. Paul chas- 
 tised his body and brought it under subjection, lest, while he preached 
 to others he should himself become a reprobate, did he believe Christ's 
 sacrifice incomplete? that it needed his supplementary austerities? 
 Or that the other Apostles should command us, to make sure our election 
 and vocation by good works ; to work out our salvation with fear snd 
 trembling? No; God who made us without ourselves, will not save us 
 without ourselves. He requires our co-operation, and with his grace 
 he aids our weak endeavor. This grace he communicates to us by divers 
 channels, and in various ways. Of these the principal are the seven sa 
 craments, which, if I may use the gentleman's figure in its proper appli 
 cation, like the seven mouths of the Nile convey the healing waters from 
 the fountains of the Savior to every portion of the church. The will 
 is made and recorded. The executors, the apostles and priests of the 
 church, convey and apply an adequate portion to the wants of men. 
 Wherever a captive may be presumed to groan in spiritual slavery, 
 they seek him out, they proclaim to him the glad tidings of his deliv 
 erance, they pay, with the treasures of Christ, of which they are thi, 
 depositaries, the price of his ransom ; and this when they find the slave 
 willing to accept the terms on which redemption is offered, do they 
 carry into effect, in his behalf, the charitable intentions of the divine 
 testator. Is this arraigning his bounty, or distributing it as he com- 
 manded ? Is this robbing Christ of his glory, or calling all nations to 
 bask in its rays and exult in its effulgence?- The Catholic church, in 
 all the institutions she venerates, the sacraments she administers, the 
 truths she proclaims, the sacrifices she offers, the prayers she prefers, 
 the charity she inculcates, the grace she dispenses, acts by the com- 
 mand of Christ, in the name of Christ. This in the true and living way 
 by which she commands all to seek access to the Father, and by Him, 
 with Him, and in Him, to give to God all honor and glory forever. 
 He is the sun of the entire system, and all the ordinances of religion, 
 are but the rays of that sun enlightening and vivifying the Christian 
 pilgrim at every step of his weary progress through this vale of tears. 
 Sacrifice, we consider indispensable to religion. It has been offered 
 to God in every age, by every people, under every form of religion. 
 Abel offered sacrifice in Eden, the purest firstlings of his flocks, for he 
 was a shepherd. Cain sacrificed the fruits of the earth, for he was a 
 husbandman. Noah, whe"n the waters of the deluge had subsided, 
 Solomon, when he dedicated .the temple, offered sacrifices ; even the 
 Pagan nations of the earth, who changed the glory of the incorruptible 
 God, into the likeness of the image of corruptible man, and of birds, 
 and of four-footed boasts, paid homage to this dictate of nature, and 
 continued the rite of sacrifice, however unworthy the objects of idola- 
 try From all this we rightly infer, that the only perfect religion 
 should not be destitute of sacrifice. The scripture everywhere testi- 
 fies to its necessity. Melchisedec, as we read in Genesis, offered 
 bread and wine. He was a priest of the most High God. AnH David, 
 in the 109th Psalm, says of Jesus Christ, King of Justice, King of 
 Peace, "The Lord hath sworn, and it shall not repent him, thou art a 
 priest forever according to the order of Melchisedec." When God 
 abrogates the Jewish dispensation, and substitutes A new and bettor in 
 its stead, he says to the Jews, by the last of all the prophets, " I have 
 no pleasure in you, sailh the Lord of hosts ; and I will not receive a gifi
 
 72 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 of your hand i for from the rising of iht sun even to the going down, TTJJ 
 name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is a sacrifice,* 
 and there is offered to my name a clean nblation ; for my name is great 
 among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts" Malachias, ch. 11, 6. v. 
 When Jesus Christ, as we read in three Evangelists, instituted the 
 Blessed Eucharist, he said to his apostles, " This my body, which is 
 offered for you. This is my blood, which is shed for you. Do this in com- 
 memoration of me.' 1 '' 
 
 Catholics obey the injunctions of the Savior, they do what he com- 
 manded them, they offer the memorial sacrifice, they continue and re- 
 present the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon Calvary. They offer it 
 under the forms of bread and wine as Melchisedec had done in figure. 
 They offer it from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof, 
 as Malachy had predicted. On Asia's distant plains, under the burn- 
 ing sun of Africa, in the tangled forests of the western world, as well 
 as in its new and blooming cities, the sacrifice is offered and the pro- 
 phecy obtains its glorious accomplishment. If Protestants say they 
 have the sacrifice of the death of Christ, I answer with our divines, 
 so had the servants of God, under the law of nature and the written 
 law; for it is impossible that with the blood of oxen and goats, sin 
 should be taken away; nevertheless they had perpetual sacrifices to 
 represent the death of Christ, and to apply the fruits of it to their souls. 
 In the same manner the Catholics have Christ himself really present, 
 and mystically offered on their altars daily, for the same ends. 
 
 If time permitted, I might call up in review before you those vener- 
 able bishops and doctors whose blood sealed the doctrine, which their 
 writings had defended. The saint Johns and the Polycarps of the east 
 the Irenaeuses and the Hilaries of the west those venerable men 
 whose great age, like that of the patriarchs of old, enabled them to 
 transmit to their children without fear of error, or multiplying tod 
 much the intermediate links the traditionary chain of their own and 
 their forefathers' belief what they believed and taught themselves 
 and what was daily practised in those old centurial churches 
 which we have inherited from them, built many ages before any of 
 the modern dissentient religions were known, and where the altar and 
 the cross, the liturgy' and the stone from the wall, bore testimony to 
 the real presence in the Eucharist, to the divinity of the victim that 
 was offered there in sacrifice ! [Time expired.] 
 
 FRIDAY, JANUARY 20. Half past 9 o'clock, A. M. 
 
 MB. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 I Jid not, in first taking up " The Synopsis of the Moral Theology 
 of the Roman Church," say aught of its author, or of the causes which 
 ushered it into existence. But since it has become a matter of so 
 much debate, 1 shall state a few things concerning it and its author, 
 Mr. Smith, the author, was a member of that community for seventeen 
 years, several of which he officiated as a priest. Convinced of the 
 errors of that superstition, he publicly renounced it, and is now a Pro- 
 testant minister, greatly devoted to the cause of Protestantism. From
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 273 
 
 his intimate acquaintance with the spirit and tendency of the Roman 
 Catholic institution, he has recently translated a considerable portion 
 of the works of Saint Ligori. The title of the book is : 
 
 " A synopsis of the moral theology of the church of Rome, taken from th 
 works of St. Ligori and translated from the Latin into English by SAMUEL B 
 SMITH, late a popish priest." New York, 1836. 
 
 It is further explained in the preface : 
 
 " What we present before the public in this synopsis, is a compendious vitrt 
 of the doctrine of the church of Rome, now taught in all her schools. It is a 
 fair and exact translation of selected portions of the voluminous MoKAI. THEO* 
 I.OGY of St. Alphonsus de Ligorio, published at Mechlin in Belgium, superio* 
 rum permissii, in the year 1828." [Preface, p. 5. 
 
 Of its author he speaks thus : 
 
 "He was enrolled among the saints, as the title page of his work declares, by 
 pope Pius VII. on the 15th of September, in the year 1816." [Pref. p. 6. 
 
 It seems that this work is so popular, as to be found in almost 
 very priest's library, and is quoted by them, as of the highest au- 
 thority. 
 
 "Besides the above testimony in confirmation of the authority of St. Ligori, 
 we have also that of the Rev. father Valera himself, the popish priest of the city 
 of New York. This Rev. father Felix Valera, about a year and a half ago, in 
 his attempt at a refutation of my" i enunciation of popery," quotes this very 
 game Ligori as overwhelming and decisive authority against something which 
 he found advanced by me." [Pref. p. 9. 
 
 In some very important matters, he has given the original itself; 
 and fearing, as the manner is, that his translation might be called in 
 question, he says : 
 
 " If they deny that we have given a fair translation, we will then challenge 
 them to come forward in a public assembly with the works of St. Ligori, when 
 we promise to meet them, and submit our translation, and the original, to the 
 inspection of a committee, one half of whom to be chosen by ourselves, and the 
 other half by the Roman clergy. Truth never shuns investigation. If we have 
 not given a t'air, genuine, and true translation, and if we have not exhibited the 
 doctrines of Ligori and the church of Rome fairly and correctly, without gar-' 
 bling, or giving an erroneous construction, we will be willing to incur the con- 
 sequences that we ought to expect, for having deceived the public." Synop. 
 Pref. p. 12. . 
 
 I have given but a sample of this work, though I have made numer- 
 ous quotations ; only one of which has been challenged by rny antag 
 onist. That point I touched as lightly as possible, because unsuited 
 to a popular assembly. This the gentleman fully understands. 1 
 slurred it over, in terms the least intelligible which I could select at 
 the moment : but he has no reason to object even to the comment, that 
 Mr. Smith puts upon the article quoted. He well knows that mar- 
 riage in the priesthood is instant excommunication ; while concubin- 
 age is matter of forbearance. In the course of this discussion, I had 
 occasion to observe, that I found very many canons of the church, even 
 in the fifth and sixth centuries, on the subject of marriage and its 
 abuses. This, from the modesty of my exposition, he took occasion 
 to use in argument, as proof that the celibacy of the clergy was early 
 introduced. This was a perversion of my observation, which the deli- 
 cacy of my situation would not allow me to explain. Nor will I now 
 sin against my own feelings, or those of my audience, by going fully 
 into such details. I will only add, that I have a superfluity of evi- 
 dence in proof of the allegation of Ligori. The casuistry, dissimula- 
 tion, and immorality of the Jesuits, and the whole genius of the inter- 
 nal spirit of the papacy, are abundantly attested in the two works ly- 
 ing before me : " The Provincial Letters," of the accomplished Pa-s- 
 
 18
 
 274 DEBATE Oy THE 
 
 chal, which I have not yet opened in this discussion; and, "The 
 Secreta Monita of the order of Jesus." This copy, in the original 
 French, I am informed by the lady tnrough whose kindness I have 
 been furnished with it, was brought to this country by the secretary 
 of the great and renowned La Fayette, on his last visit to the United 
 States. This, our national benefactor, who, my opponent says, was 
 a true Catholic, has declared, that if our liberty should be lost, it will 
 be by the hands of priests. I saw this fact stated in two papers ; one 
 published in Richmond, the other in New-York ; and 1 have no doubt 
 of its correctness. 
 
 The Secreta Monita has been a few years since, translated at Prin- 
 ceton N. J. and is now found in many book-stores in this country. 
 From the perusal of these two volumes, we shall find that the moral 
 theology of St. Ligori, the doctrine of Smith's Synopsis, is in per- 
 fect unison with the true spirit of the Roman clergy and institution. 
 
 The gentleman mentioned the disclosures of Maria Monk. I did 
 not ; because I rely on no such documents. What she says, is private 
 property ; and there is no occasion for bringing it into this contro- 
 versy. I have my own' opinion of it however : but need not its aid 
 on this occasion. 
 
 The gentleman speaks often of the imperfections and difficulties 
 of Protestant translations of the bible.' He says that we Protestants 
 are in a deplorable state ; always making new translations, and never, 
 or not long satisfied with any of them : and seems to sympathize with 
 us, as if we were without the scriptures. This pretended condolence, 
 I only notice because it gives me an opportunity to repeat with em- 
 phasis, that his church, with all her pretended infallibility, cannot pro- 
 duce a translation of any sort, in any living language on earth ! With 
 all the riches, and learning, and infallibility of the Roman hierarchy ; 
 she owns not an English New Testament, authentic or authorized 
 either by pope or council, or the church diffusive or responsive. How 
 supremely ridiculous, therefore, for the gentleman to talk of Protes- 
 tant translations, as imperfect ! How does he infallibly know that 
 any one of them is imperfect? Two infallible editions of the Latin 
 vulgate have been made by the authority of two popes, not thirty 
 years distant from each other ; and yet they differ in more than -2000 
 places !!! Sixtus V. issued a bull, with an anathema, against any 
 man that would change his authorized vulgate, even in the least par- 
 ticle, (in minima particula,) yet, Clement VIII. had the audacity, 
 in despite of said bull, to order a new translation, and did accomplish 
 it, changing it more than 2000 times, and sometimes very seriously, 
 to the amount of clauses, and whole verses, as Dr. James in his Bel- 
 lum Papale has amply testified. Thus the Clementine vulgate, under 
 the solemn curse of the Sixtine bull, carries upon it the seal of infal- 
 libility! 
 
 I now invite attention to the subject of yesterday evening. I then 
 endeavored to. state, as briefly as I could, the two fundamental errors 
 on which the Man of sin stands. The first, That the sacrifice of Je- 
 sus Christ was not alone sufficient, to put away sin ; and the second, 
 That persons can do more than their duty. To provoke discussion 
 on these two great doctrinal lies, I stated that all the peculiar doc- 
 trines of the Roman Catholic church, viz. penance, purgatory, tran- 
 substantiation, and all this priestly sacrifice, confession, &c. were
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 275 
 
 built upon these two doctrinal lies. I shall not further discuss that 
 subject, till the gentleman agrees to meet me there. 
 
 Again, It is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the 
 " intention" of the priest, in every act of worship and consecration, 
 is essential to the validity of that act that is, that unless the person 
 ordaining a priest intend to ordain him, all that is done, is of no vali 
 dity, however exact the form ; because he did not intend in his heart, 
 to ordain him ! So, in consecrating a wafer, without such intentior^ 
 its nature is not changed ; and the reception of it, of no value. Such 
 intention is essential to every act of religion, in which a priest offi- 
 ciates. The efficacy of all ordinances, is therefore resolved into " the 
 ntention of the priest." He that denies the necessity of this inten- 
 tion, according to the council of Trent, " is to be anathema." This 
 is therefore, one of the essential doctrines of the church as necessary 
 tj salvation, as the gospel itself; for the rejection of it incurs as 
 solemn a curse as any one of the hundred anathemas which the coun- 
 cil of Trent pronounced in confirmation of its decrees. The only 
 time, the word anathema is used by Paul in the sense of a curse is 
 in his letter to the Galatians, in respect of corrupting the gospel. 
 This then, is as essential as the gospel. Who then, let me ask, 
 can have faith in any of the ceremonies or ordinances, or consecra- 
 tions of Rome ? Can any one know the intention in the heart of 
 a priest or bishop ] Nay, indeed, bishop PURCELL never can prove 
 to any mortal, that he is truly ordained : nor can any one have any 
 faith in his services as a bishop, unless he know all hearts, from 
 Peter's time till now, and could show that the intention was never 
 wanting from the apostolic age till now, in the ancestorial official 
 lines. This doctrine lays the axe at the root of all certainty in 
 every part of the Roman Catholic religion : for in the judgment of 
 that church multitudes of her clergy have proved hypocrites and im- 
 postors, in whose intentions at any previous time, there can there- 
 fore be no faith. So far as Protestants are concerned, their principles 
 are perfectly free from this incertitude. Every Protestant feels the 
 most perfect certainty in submitting to the ordinances of religion. The 
 Protestant minister knows and teaches that the ordinance receives no 
 saving or salutary efficacy from his intentions, or his hands. Per- 
 sons, who in faith and piety receive them, know that they receive all 
 the efficacy of the ordinance, independent of any special virtue in hjim 
 that does administer them. 
 
 On the subject of indulgences I shall touch but lightly, for the 
 want of time. The rich and profitable trade, which has been carried 
 on by Rome in the sale of this single article of her merchandize 
 is as public as her name. The conspicuity of this subject as connect- 
 ed with the Protestant Reformation is as familiar as the names of Lu- 
 ther and Tetzel. It is a sprout from the root of supererogation, from 
 the doctrine of human merit that immense bank of which the clergy 
 are directors. The intolerable abuses of that board of directors Avas 
 the punctum saliens of the Protestant Reformation. Pope Leo X 
 president in that day, wanted to pay off some sixty million of dollars, 
 incurred and being incurred for the splendid edifice of St. Peters at 
 Rome. He published a plenary remission of past sins, and an indul- 
 gence to all contributing to this splendid undertaking. As a matter of 
 curiosity and of edification, we shall here read the form of tnese in- 
 dulgences.
 
 276 DEBATE OH THE 
 
 " May our Lord Jesus Christ have mercy upon thee, and absolve thee by the 
 merits of his most holy passion. And I, by his authority, that of his blt-ssed 
 apostles, Peter and Paul, and that of the most holy pope, granted and commit- 
 ted to me in these parts, do absolve thee, first from all ecclesiastical ci-nsure, in 
 whatever manner they have been incurred, then from all ihy sins, transgres- 
 sions, and excesses, how enormous soever they may be; even from such us are 
 reserved for the cognizance of the holy see, and as far as the keys of the holy 
 church extend. I remit to you all punishment which you deserve in purgatory 
 on their account; and I restore you to the holy sacraments of the church, to the 
 unity of the faithful, and to that innocence and purity which you possessed at 
 baptism: so that when you die, the gates of punishment shall be shut, and the 
 gates of paradise shall be opened; and if you shall not die at present, this grace 
 shall remain in full force, when you are at the point of death. In the name of 
 the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." [Controversy between Messrs. 
 Hughes and Breckenridge, p. 243. 
 
 All we have said with regard to the power and pretensions of Rome 
 in granting indulgences, is substantiated, and more than substanti- 
 ated by this document, for in anticipation of the future, even to death, 
 and in death, the absolving power, or grace, was to continue. I will 
 also add, the doctrine of the creed of pope Pius IV. 
 
 "The council of Trent teaches that " whoever shall affirm that when the 
 grace of justification is received, the otfence of the penitent sinner is so forgiv- 
 en, and the sentence of eternal punishment so reversed, that there remains no 
 temporal punishment to be endured, before his entrance into the kingdom of 
 heaven, either in this world, or in the future state in purgatory: let him be ac- 
 cursed." Id. ib. same p. 
 
 Perhaps we should also hear, in this place, the council of Trent : 
 
 It is also an article of faith in the creed of Pius IV. " that the power of in- 
 dulgences was left by Christ to his church, and that the use of them is very help- 
 ful to Christian people." [Ground of Catholic Doc. p. 71. 72. 
 
 Once more : 
 
 Bellarmine, that great cardinal of the Roman Catholic church (to show that 
 he died in the faith he willed half of his soul to the Virgin Mary and the othei 
 half to her son) Bellarmine in his book on indulgences heads the second and 
 third chapters thus: " That there exists a certain treasury in the church, which 
 is the foundation of indulgences; that the church has the power of applying this 
 treasury of satisfactions, and thus of granting indulgences." 
 
 I will not branch out on this subject farther, unless the gentleman 
 agrees to meet me on the facts and documents just now submitted. To 
 prove the immoral tendency of such indulgences, would, indeed, be a 
 work of supererogation, if such a work were at all possible. 
 
 On the subject of transubstantiation, the creed of pope Pius IV. de- 
 cides as follows : 
 
 Article xvi. " I do also profess, that in the mass there is offered unto God a true 
 proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and the dead; and that, in th* 
 most holy sacrament of the holy eucharist, there is truly, really, and substantially 
 the body and blood, together with the soul and the divinity of our Lord Jesui 
 Christ; and that there is a conversion made of the whole substance of the bread 
 into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood; which 
 conversion the holy Catholic church calls TRAJVSUBSTANTJATION." 
 
 'The church of Rome declares that, upon the priest's pronouncing these 
 words, hoc est corpus meum, (this is my body,) the bread and wine in the eu- 
 charist are instantly transubstantiated into the natural body and blood of Christ; 
 the species or accidents only of the bread and wine remaining. Christ is offered 
 as often as the sacrifice of the mass is celebrated. Solitary masses, wherein the 
 priest communicates alone, are approved and commended; and the council of 
 Trent declares that whosoever saith they are unlawful and ought to be abrogat- 
 ed or abolished, is accursed." [View of All Religions, compiled and selected 
 from the best authorities by Thomas Robbins, minister of the gospel in east 
 Windsor, Conn. Hartford 1826, p. 25. 
 
 It is always right to attack a doctrine in the words of those who
 
 KO3IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 277 
 
 profess it. Every cardinal doctrine of the papacy can be traced to a 
 certain period, when it became an element of the system. 
 
 Monachism began to be taught by St. Anthony in the 4th century. 
 
 Auricular confession in the 5th ; but was finally established by In- 
 nocent III. early in the 13th century. 
 
 Theoretical purgatory began to be spoken of from the Pagans and 
 Jews in the (ith century; but did not obtain a fixed residence till in 
 the council of Florence, it became an integral part of infallibility 
 A. D. 1430. 
 
 Early in the 7th century the idea of universal father, or pope ob- 
 tained. 
 
 In the 8th century, after many and various fortunes, images began 
 to be set up ; and in the 9th became an integral part of Roman Catho- 
 Azism. 
 
 In the year 730, a council summoned by Leo. HI. with only one 
 dissenting vote, called the worship of images and relics idolatry. 
 
 Celibacy among the clergy began to be canonical in the llth cen- 
 tury. 
 
 In the 9th century, the doctrine of tiansubstantiation began to be 
 talked of commonly ; but was made infallible by pope Innocent III. 
 4th Lateran council. 
 
 Scotus, of Roman Catholic memory, affirmed that it was not an 
 article of faith before the Lateran council of 1215, and that it cannot 
 be proved from scripture. Bellarmine, Book iii. chap. 23, on the Eu- 
 charist, quotes Scotus as saying so, and admits, " though the scrip- 
 tures quoted last above, seems clear to us, and ought to convince any 
 man that is not forward ; yet, it may justly be doubted, whether it be 
 so, (proved by scripture,) when the most learned and acute men, such 
 as 8cotus, in particular, held a contrary opinion." Cardinal Cajetan, 
 Ochan, and bishop Fisher, cum multis aliis, held the same opinion. 
 
 Among Protestants, the reason and authority of religious belief and 
 practice, is, " Thus saith the Lord." It is not important to ascertain 
 when any opinion or practice began, nor who introduced it ; but if it 
 be not in the BIBLE, no matter how ancient it may be. It wants apostolic 
 sanction, for the apostles sanction only what was written and ordained 
 before their death. St. Clement, and St. Ignatius, and St. Irenaeus, 
 and all the other saints in the Roman calendar, were born too late to 
 sanction any article of faith, or morals, by their vote. 
 
 But a few words on transubstantiation. " A sacrament" says the 
 church, " is an outward and visible sign of some inward and spiritual 
 grace." Now, it cannot be both the sign and the thing signified. If, 
 then, the Eucharist be a sacrament, it cannot be true that it is the 
 body and blood of Christ transubstantiated. Rome ought, then, to 
 strike it from her list of sacraments. 
 
 But Jesus gave the eucharist for a sign, a keepsake, a memorial of 
 his love. It is, then, a commemorative institution, as well as a sign 
 of New Testament blessings : " Do this in remembrance of me." 
 Like other tokens of love, it has inscribed upon it the name of the 
 donor. As was said of the passover ; it is the Lord's passover : so says 
 Jesus, " this is my body." 
 
 Now, as all words have a literal and figurative meaning, the only 
 question here is, Are these words to be taken literally or figuratively ? 
 If literally, some good reason must be offered: and what is it? Be- 
 cause some fither, pope, or council so decided ? We must have the
 
 278 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 reason which authorised them, else their decision is a mere assump- 
 tion. 
 
 Where shall that reason be found ? Is it because Jesus always so 
 speaks, that he must be thus understood ] Then I contend, that when 
 he said, "I am the door," he was literally transubstantiated into a 
 door ,- and when he said, " / am ihe bread which came down from 
 heaven," he was converted into bread; am' when he said, " I am the 
 true vine," he was literally changed into a real vine. And why not ? 
 Is it more irrational, marvelous, incredible, than that "this loaf is 
 my body," should mean that this loaf was converted into his body, 
 and changed Into flesh; and that while the apostles were eating the 
 loaf, they were eating the living flesh of him that stood before them ? ! 
 If, then, the bishop assumes a literal interpretation in the one case ; I 
 assume it in these and various other passages. For, if he may assume 
 ad libitum, so may I ; and so may every one else ; and then what 
 comes of the certainty of language ? It is, then, without law, precedent, 
 or authority, to assume the very point in debate; and to say, that be- 
 cause it reads this is my body, it means that bread is converted into flesh. 
 
 This style, of the passage in dispute, is very common in both the 
 Old and New Testaments. So early as the time of Joseph, we read 
 " the seven good kine are seven years," and " the seven good ears are 
 seven years." What a -.transubstantiation ! But change are into re- 
 present, which is its meaning, in a thousand places, and all is plain. 
 
 Again : says Jesus, " Destroy this temple," pointing to his body. 
 " The field is the world the reapers are the angels." Are these, 
 also, transubstantiations ? Paul also speaks thus, when he says of the 
 rock Horeb, " that rock ivas Christ." And John the apostle, " the 
 seven stars are seven angels;" "the seven candlesticks are seven 
 churches." And what is the difference between these phrases, and 
 " this is my body ?" but finally on this part of the subject, Jesus 
 said of the cup, " this cup is the New Testament." Does not that, 
 on the bishop's premises, prove that the cup was changed into the 
 New Testament f ! But, if by pronouncing over a loaf the words of 
 consecration a priest has power to change bread into flesh, and wine 
 into blood, he has, indeed, a power truly miraculous and divine ; and 
 works as many miracles in the whole course of his life as he says 
 masses. A claim to such a divine, supernatural, .and extraordinary 
 power, ought not to be claimed upon an arbitrary, capricious, and 
 whimsical interpretation of a word ! Good reasons ought to be offered 
 by any man, who passes himself on the community, as possessing 
 power equal to quickening the dead and suspending the laws of nature. 
 
 Once more, for the present : If, you believe the priest and receive 
 the bread as flesh, you never after can with reason believe your own 
 senses : for, when your eye declares it bread, and your senses of 
 smelling, tasting, feeling, and I might add, your hearing all declare 
 that it is still bread and not flesh If, I say, you can, contrary to your 
 own senses, which God has given you as the means of knowledge 
 and certainty, thus implicitly believe the declaration of a priest ; you 
 are disqualified for reasoning, for believing the Christian religion, or 
 your own senses on any subject of which they are witnesses. So 
 that it may be truly said, he that believes in transubstantiation, can 
 rationally believe in nothing else. All the Christian miracles, were 
 to be believed not because they were contrary to the evidence of 
 sense ; but because they were in accordance with that evidence.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 279 
 
 I cannot argue this point with any sort of ability. I cannot feel in 
 earnest. I seem to myself as if I were reasoning against a thing 
 which no person believed ; and I never could with any sort of spirit, 
 discuss a matter, unless there was some little show of plausibility, 
 or shadow of reason in it. The doctrine of transubstantiation is sc 
 absurd, that I do not know that I ever read a tract through against it in 
 my life. But this subject gives such glory to the priests and has 
 wrought such miracles upon the superstitious crowd, that it is worth 
 more to sustain the priesthood, than all the other six Roman sacra- 
 ments. And that which causes this most incredible of all things, to 
 be devoured by such multitudes is, that it expiates sin. Hence the 
 body of Christ is daily eaten by hundreds of thousands, as a sin of- 
 fering together with " his soul and divinity," as decided by the coun- 
 cil of Trent ! The Messiah is then always suffering, always bleed- 
 ing, always dying, always expiating sin by the sacrifice of himself; 
 and his people are always literally devouring his flesh ! What a pic- 
 ture !! I shall turn away from it ; for my soul sickens at the thought. 
 
 Protestants know that the sin of forgetfulness is the easily beset- 
 ting sin of mortals ; and that they need commemorative institutions. 
 Hence, they highly appreciate the honor of having a Lord's table, a 
 Lord's supper, a holy communion and fellowship, through these sa- 
 cred emblems of a Savior's love. " The loaf, which we break," says 
 the apostle, "is it not the communion of the body of Christ? The 
 cup over which we give thanks, is it not the communion, or the joint 
 participation of his blood ?" Hence, the New Testament with its 
 spiritual and heavenly blessings is always contemplated, realized, and 
 remembered with holy thankfulness in the Christian assemblies, while 
 they partake of the sacred emblems of that great sacrifice " once of- 
 fered for the sins of many. For by one offering up of himself, he has 
 forever perfected them who are sanctified." 
 
 Having yet remaining a few minutes, I shall prepare the way for 
 the introduction of my seventh proposition. Having touched at the 
 roots of all the principal corruptions, and having yet heard nothing in 
 reply, I will anticipate that proposition with a few remarks on the pa- 
 pistical notion of a judge of controversy. 
 
 The council of Trent decreed " that the oral traditions of the Cath- 
 olic church," (meaning the Roman) "are to be received, part pietatia 
 offectu oc reverentia suscipit ac veneratur, with equal piety and rever- 
 ence as the books of the Old and New Testament." Council of Trent 
 4th session. 
 
 Then she asserts : " It belongs to the church to judge of the true 
 sense and interpretation of scripture ; and that no person shall dare 
 to interpret it in matters relating to faith and manners to any sense 
 contrary to that which the church has held, or contrary to the unani- 
 mous consent of the fathers." Ib. Id. 
 
 And according to the 23rd article of the creed of pope Pius IV 
 " I do acknowledge the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman church 
 to be the mother and mistress of all churches ; and I do promise and 
 swear true obedience to the bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter, 
 the prince of the apostles, and the vicar of Christ." 
 
 Here then, we have the essential elements of mental slavery and 
 degradation: for, if no person dare to interpret the Scriptures contra- 
 ry to what the church has already held, or to the unanimous consent 
 of the Fathers ; where is that liberty of thought and speech and ac-
 
 280 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 lion, on the most important of all subjects, our moral and religious re- 
 lations, without which, liberty is without meaning, and mental inde- 
 pendence but a name ? 
 
 In all monarchies, save that of Rome and Mahomet, a judge is not 
 constitutionally a judge of his own case. But the Roman judge of 
 controversy is the whole church, says my learned opponent, and her 
 councils affirm with him. The whole church judging then between 
 what parties'? Herself and the heretics !! What a righteous, infal- 
 lible and republican judge, is the supreme judge of controversy in the 
 Catholic church ! The controversy is between two parties the church, 
 or the clergy, on one side ; and the heretics or the reformers on the 
 other, as they may happen to be called ; say the church and the here- 
 tics. And who is umpire, who is supreme judge of both 1 One of 
 the parties, indeed, the church herself! This is the archetype the 
 beau ideal, of civil liberty, and republican government, in the supreme 
 Roman hierarchy. It will not help it to place the ermine on the pope. 
 He is that instant exparte judge.' And besides, he is executive of 
 the church. If the pope is to be judge, and executive, and lawgiver, 
 in the case as he frequently is, what a splendid picture of a republi- 
 can president or judge have we got in the Roman church ! 
 
 This ghostly despotism is to be sustained and defended too, by the 
 whole church, by vows, oaths, and pledges, the most solemn and bind- 
 ing thatreligion can suggest, or human ingenuity devise. It is true she 
 foverns by her bishops. The popes make bishops, on the recommen- 
 ation of bishops, and these bishops serve the pope and govern the 
 people. Their oath, which is the same in all countries, 1 will now 
 read, so far at least, as relates to this matter. I have the original, 
 and different translations of it, and if it be disputed, I am prepared to 
 sustain it. To reconcile it to the genius of our institutions, and to the 
 safety and happiness of our country, will require the explanations and 
 reasonings of my friend. 
 
 "I, N. elect of the church of N. from henceforward will be faithful and obe- 
 dient to St. Peter the Apostle, and to the holy Roman church, and to our lord, 
 the lord N. Pope N. and his successors, canonically coining in. I will neither 
 advise, consent, or do an}' thing that they may lose life or member, or that their 
 persons may be seized, or hands any wise laid upon them, or any injuries offered 
 to them, under anv pretence whatsoever. The counsel which they shall intrust 
 to me withal, by themselves, their messengers, or letters, I will not knowingly 
 reveal to any to their prejudice. I will help them to defend and keep the Ro- 
 man papacy, and the royalties of St. Peter, saving my order, against all men. The 
 legate of the apostolic see, going and coming, I will honorably treat and help 
 ?n his necessities. The rights, honors, privileges, and authority of the holy Ro- 
 man church of our Lord the Pope, and his foresaid successors, I will endeavor 
 to preserve, defend, increase, and advance. ! will not be in any counsel, action, 
 or treaty, in which shall be plotted against our said lord, and the said Roman 
 church, any thing to the hurt or prejudice of their persons, right, honor, state 
 or power; and if I shall know any such thing to be treated or agitated by any 
 whatsoever, I will signify it to our said lord, or to some other by whom it may 
 conic to his knowledge. The rules of the holy Fathers, the apostolic decrees, 
 ordinances, or disposals, reservations, provisions, and mandates, I will observe 
 with all my might, and cause to be observed by others. Heretics, schismatics, 
 and rebels to our said lord, or his foresaid successors, I will to my utmost power 
 persecute and oppose." 
 
 The Latin of the last sentence of which reads : 
 
 " Hereticos, schismaticos, et rebelles, eicleni domino nostro vel successoribus 
 prnedictis pro posse persequar et impugnabo." [Pontificale Roman. Edit. Ant- 
 werp. A. D. 1626. 
 
 Here then is the most solemn pledge and vow given by every bishop
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 281 
 
 <f Rome, that he will to the utmost of his power persecute and destroy 
 heretics and schismatics ! Does not this indisputable fact, alone, sus- 
 tain my seventh proposition, and prove that the genius or' the Latin 
 church is anti- American and essentially opposed to the existence of all 
 free institutions ? [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 10 o'clock, A. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 You perceive, my friends, that there is scarcely a single tenet of the 
 Roman Catholic faith, which my friend has not brought into view 
 this morning. How then am I to escape the charge of desultoriness, 
 in following such an argument? The whole category, from Alpha to 
 Omega, shoots up before me, shifting with the rapidity of lightning. 
 It is the necessary eifect of the confusion of my learned friend's ideas, 
 and of the order in which he arranged the propositions whose discus- 
 sion was to call them forth. The very first of these propositions the 
 first word of it Holy would have called up for discussion all we 
 have heard on the immorality of the church. As my friend thought 
 fit to commence as he has done, order and method continue to be ex- 
 iled from this debate. He selected the points of attack and the plan of 
 campaign ; let him not charge on me his own blunders, which he sees 
 now, too late. There was one great question which he should have 
 determined, a limine ; it would have cut off all this desultory argu- 
 mentation. It is this. Did Jesus Christ establish an infallible tribu- 
 nal to determine the meaning of scripture? If so, we are bound by its 
 decisions. If not, the whole Catholic religion falls to the ground. 
 Now, my friends, I endeavored to prove that Christ did establish such 
 a tribunal, and I defy any one to bring from the Bible proof to the 
 contrary. One text alone is sufficient to put this matter at rest for 
 ever. " The church is the pillar and ground of the truth." I began 
 to enforce my argument, when my time expired, and my friend seemed 
 unwilling to let slip the opportunity, but got up immediately, and said 
 that my last observations of yesterday were unworthy of notice. 
 
 He brought as a parallel to the words, " I am with you all days even 
 to the end of the world," the customary ancient salutation, " the Lord be 
 with you;" and argued from this, that Christ's words mean no more than 
 that ! But, my friends, what point of comparison is there between the 
 words, " God be with you," which one frail man addresses to another, 
 and the words, the solemn promises of the Savior, commissioning his 
 apostles to preach his gospel, and cheering their despondency by the 
 divine assurance, " Behold, I am with you all days even to the end of 
 the world 1" Are the two cases the same ? Are we not more sure 
 that Christ is with his church forever, than we are of the effect of the 
 salutation of a poor fallible man? What Christ does, is infallible j 
 what he says will come to pass. If his church was to fail, we shou.d 
 have had an assurance to that effect in the Bible. There is none. If 
 his church was to fail, we should have had miraculous displays like 
 that of Sinai, and of the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, mark- 
 ing the commencement of a new era. Or Christ would have come 
 again upon earth, rebuked and banished error, and restored she primi- 
 tive lustre and beauty of truth. This has not been done, nor has such 
 a prophecy been any where made. As Christ, by one oblation, has 
 perfected those that were to be sanctified for ever ; so has he by o;ia 
 v2 36
 
 282 DEBATE ON 1HE 
 
 revelation, assured us of divine truth in religion for ever. The work 
 of God then, needed no reformation. If men's morals were bad, they 
 should have been corrected, but religion should not have been changed. 
 In a word, as Bishop Smith of Kentucky, has so well said, " Reform- 
 ation should have taken place in the church, not out of it." Let my 
 friend twist the words of Christ as he pleases, he can find nothing like 
 them in human language. Christ was God and his word is what it 
 purports to be. He is with his church all days, until the consumma- 
 tion of ages. The heavens and the earth may pass away, but his 
 word will never pass away. The worse we become, the more refrac- 
 tory and insubordinate, the farther from apostolic times and fervor and 
 purity, the more need have we of authority to control us. So that the 
 power of the church to maintain unity of faith, which Christ so much de 
 sired for his disciples, is, at least, as necessary now as it has ever been. 
 The necessity of submitting to the church does not destroy liberty, 
 while, on the contrary, the sources of error and contentions, among 
 sects which undertake to judge for themselves, are endlessly multi- 
 plied. Christ foresaw the time when even the apostles would dis- 
 pute. He knew the itching of the Greeks for novelty, and their prone- 
 ness to disputation always learning and never coming to the truth 
 tearing down to-day, and building up to-morrow : one wave of error 
 and doubt following another, and washing away every doctrine, and 
 creed, and sect, in its turn ; and he therefore said : " Hear the church." 
 
 My friend argued in the commencement of this controversy, that 
 since there were as good men among Protestants as among Catholics, 
 why should there be any argument' Let him answer that question 
 since he is the challenger. I cheerfully admit the fact, but what is 
 the inference ? Why that those Protestants were better than their 
 principles. Every man who follows out the Protestant principles may 
 be bad. He may find his own code of morals as well as his doctrinal 
 code, in the Bible. Because if he choose to interpret the Bible for 
 himself, in morals as well as in faith, he may argue from it in favor of 
 the lawfulness of any thing he pleases. And is it not true that certain vi- 
 cious acts are done by some men on the pretence of their being allowed 
 by scripture 1 ? I could adduce hundreds of instances of the strong and 
 terrible delusions and crimes, for which their victims persuaded them- 
 selves they found a sanction in the Bible. And if the sincerely pious, 
 the humane and charitable of Protestant communions ask them- 
 selves the question: "are the virtues I strive to practice, the fruits of 
 my religion V they would find that their peculiar tenets have no in- 
 fluence on their conduct. Their piety and the purity pf their morals 
 are the effects of naturally good dispositions, of virtuous associations, 
 of principles, which they hold in common with Catholics, a reverence 
 for the divinity and a desire for future happiness, a sense of honor, de- 
 corum, propriety, &c. 
 
 In this kind of virtue even pagans have been eminent, but their 
 virtue is no proof of the goodness of their religion. Aristides was 
 just, Scipio chaste, Regulus patriotic, Plato sober, Cincinnatus 
 unambitious, Titus, the delight of the human race, and Antoninus, 
 pious and yet they were all idolaters ! There are, thank heaven, con- 
 servative principles in man's bosom, which correct in conduct, what 
 is wrong in principle. But if we sincerely desire to know the fruits 
 of the reformation, we have only to ask its authors. Hear, then, what
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 283 
 
 Luther was compelled to acknowledge upon this subject. " We see,'* 
 says he,' in his sermon the 2nd Sunday in Advent, " that through the 
 malice of the Devil, men are now more avaricious, more cruel, more 
 disorderly, more insolent, and much more wicked, than they were 
 under popery." " If any one wish, says Musculus, to see a multitude 
 of knaves, disturbers of the public peace, &c. let him go to a city, where 
 the gospel is preached in its purity, (he means a reformed city) for 
 it is clearer than the light of day, that there never were pagans 
 more vicious and disorderly, than those professors of the gospel." 
 " The thing," says Melancthon, " speaks for itself in this country 
 among the reformed ; their whole time is devoted to intemperance and 
 drunkenness, (immanibus poculis). So deeply are the people sunk 
 into barbarity and ignorance, that many of them would imagine they 
 should die in the night, if they should chance to fast in the day." 
 Ad capt. vi. Mat. Neither was the growth of vice and ignorance con- 
 fined to Germany. They grew'wherever the seeds of the reformation 
 were permitted to take root. " In this nation" (England) says Stubbs, 
 after he had made the tour of the island, " I found a general decay of 
 good works, or rather a plain defection, or falling away from God." 
 (Motives to good works, An. 159G.) But hear how the eloquent 
 Erasmus describes the fruits of the reformation. He was indeed a 
 Catholic, but a Catholic whom the Protestants allow to have been 
 impartial. He was an eye and ear witness to the introduction and 
 progress of the reformation, observed its workings with the eye of a 
 philosopher, and has marked them down with the accuracy of a can- 
 did and correct historian. " And who," he says, " are the gospel 
 people ? Look around you and shew me any who has become a bet- 
 ter man. Show me one who, once a glutton, is now turned sober, one 
 who, before violent, is now meek ; one who, before avaricious, is 
 now generous ; one who, before impure, is now chaste ; I can point 
 out multitudes, who have become far worse than they were before. In 
 their assemblies, you never see any of them heave a sigh ; shed a 
 tear ; or strike his breast, even on the days that are sacred to affliction. 
 Their discourses are little else, but calumnies against the priesthood 
 They have abolished confession, and few of them confess their sins 
 even to God. They have abrogated fasting; and they wallow in 
 sensuality. They have become Epicureans, for fear of being Jews 
 They have cast off the yoke of human institutions ; and along with 
 it, they have shaken off the Lord. So far from being submissive to 
 bishops, they are disobedient to the civil. magistrates. What tumults 
 and seditions mark their conduct! For what trifles do they fly to 
 arms ! St. Paul commanded the first Christians to shun the society 
 of the wicked ; and behold ! the reformers seek most the society of 
 the most corrupted. These are their delight. The gospel now flourish- 
 es forsooth ! because priests and monks take wives in opposition to . 
 human laws and despite of their sacred vows. Own it is folly to ex- 
 change evils for- evils, and madness to exchange small evils for great 
 ones." Ep. 47. Lib. 31. John Wesley says, speaking of his own 
 time not one hundred and fifty years ago, " 31 dissipated age (such 
 as is the present perhaps beyond all that ever were, at least that are 
 recorded in history) is an age wherein God is generally forgotten. 
 And a ditsipated nation, (such as England is at present, in a superla- 
 tive degree) is a nation, a vast majority of which has not God ' in all 
 their thoughts.' We therefore speak an unquestionable truth, when
 
 284 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 we say, there is not on the face of the earth . another nation (at least 
 that we have ever heard of) so perfectly dissipated and ungodly ; not 
 only so totally without God in the world, but so openly setting him 
 at defiance. There never was an age, that we read of in history, since 
 Julius Csesar, since Noah, since Adam, wherein dissipation or un- 
 godliness did so generally prevail, both among high and low, rich and 
 poor." Neither would it be well in a Protestant, in order to apologise 
 for the disorders, which I have mentioned, to say " that they were 
 only the accidental evils of a moment, evils of a period of change 
 and fermentation." What ! the first fruits of a reformation disorder ! 
 the first fruits of a system of piety licentiousness ! the first fruits 
 of the reestablishment of the law of truth, impiety! Surely such an 
 apology, and yet it is often made, is absolutely weak ! There are multi- 
 plied attestations of it. " Miserable," says Neal, speaking of the time 
 of Elizabeth, and when the fermentations of the revolutionary vio- 
 lence of the reformation had subsided, " miserable and heathenish was 
 ike condition of the country in regard to religion." That you may 
 form some notion of their condition, hear in what manner the inhabi- 
 tants of London, in a petition presented to the parliament during this 
 reign, express themselves. " In one half our churches," they say, " we 
 have watchmen that have no eyes ; and clouds that have no water ; 
 and in the other half, there is scarcely one tenth man that takes con- 
 science to wait on his charge. Whereby, the Lord's day is often to- 
 tally neglected; ignorance increaseth, and wickedness cometh upon 
 us like an armed man." "In the county of Cornwall," Neal says, 
 "there were at this period a hundred and forty clergymen, not one of 
 whom could preach a sermon." The situation of other counties was 
 nearly similar. Judge of the consequences. I have here the authen- 
 tic documents, Luther's and Wesley's works, to prove what I have 
 cited. Here is the great father of the reformation ; with Melancthon 
 at his side, both very unghoslly looking personages, on their knees, be- 
 fore an image of the crucifix !! (Holds up a large and old volume, and 
 describes a circle, with his person, exhibiting the pictured title page, at 
 which there was continued laughter.) This edition was published by 
 Lawrence Schenck at Wittemberg, in 1561. Here is image worship 
 by Martin Luther and his co-reformer ! and beasts, and monsters all 
 around them. Mr. C. says that the popes might have been much 
 worse men than he has described them. That bad acts are soon for- 
 gotten, and good ones more apt to be chronicled. This is, unfortu- 
 nately, not the case, as history but too well attests. The virtues are too 
 unobtrusive to attract public notice, and Shakspeare, who was a 
 close observer of human nature, says : If I can quote him correctly ; 
 
 "The evil, th;tt men do, lives alter tin-in ; 
 
 The -ood is oft interred with their bones." 
 
 I am sorry to say, my friends, Professor Biggs informs me, vnat 
 want of time has prevented him from examining the works of Ligruori, 
 in reference to my opponent's accusation, based upon this book. There 
 is a gentleman of learning and integrity, in this city, who is not a Ca- 
 tholic, Mr. Alexander funmont, who will devote some time to it, and 
 who will be here at half-past four, P. M. and give us the requisite in- 
 formation. I again say, I hope a large audience will be present at the 
 denouement. My friend told us he slurred over what was worst in the 
 charges against Catholics. He has taken a new mode of doing this. 
 He has, indeed, said the worst, and helps it by a vague, but not a slur-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 285 
 
 ring insinuation, that there is more. His translation would make the 
 fallen priests' sin as bad as that of the Corinthian that afflicted by hia 
 scandalous crime the fer.verit Christians of antiquity, instead of being 
 of a different and less heinous kind. I appreciate his motives. The 
 o.harge is, as I have already stated the chuich punishes severely for 
 the slightest fault, and excommunicates the impenitent offender, giving 
 him up to the civil tribunal, for the punishment, in such cases, inflicted 
 in some countries by the law of the land. 
 
 He says, we find from the decrees of councils, that scandal has 
 existed in the church. It is true; and it is also true that Christ pre- 
 dicted its existence. What is the world but the theatre of falsehood 
 and truth ? a field of tares and wheat? 
 
 As for the other volume which the gentleman has brought up, the 
 Kecreta Manila of the Jesuits, 1 pronounce it an infamous forgery. It 
 has been proved a hundred times, that no priest had any hand in that 
 document. " The Monita Secreta, or private instructions, a publica- 
 tion sometimes brought forward against the Jesuits," says the learned 
 Charles Butler, of Lincoln's Inn, "is a most infamous work, and 
 wholly beneath notice. Neither the original, nor any certified copy 
 of this work, was ever produced ; no circumstances respecting its dia 
 covery, ever proved ; no collateral fact, to establish its authenticity, 
 ever published. There does not live the Jesuit, or the scholar of a 
 Jesuit, who, if any one of the doctrines which it inculcates, or any 
 one practice which it recommends, were proposed to him, would not 
 spurn it with indignation." Francis Xavier was a Jesuit; our first 
 archbishop, Carroll, was a Jesuit; they were both worthy of being 
 numbered among the best of men, and it was true, not forged, instruc- 
 tions that made them so. The copy of this notorious slander, on one 
 of the most virtuous, learned, and apostolic societies that have ever 
 existed, the gentleman informs us, was brought to this country from 
 France by the secretary of La Fayette ! and what was the religion of 
 this secretary 1 A Jacobin, an infidel, one of the anti-christian con- 
 spirators, that would have blotted all denominations of the followers 
 of Jesus, as well as the Catholic, fnm the whole world 1 By priests, 
 it it well known, that such men meant ministers of every creed; 
 and against all, but chiefly against those best able by learning and 
 virtue to confound them, was their hostility directed. 
 
 A greater than La Fayette, as a statesman, I mean Thomas Jeffer- 
 son, said of the Presbyterians, " Their ambition and tyranny would 
 tolerate no rival if they had power. The Presbyterian clergy are the 
 loudest, the most intolerant, of all sects, the most tyrannical and am 
 hitious; ready at the word of the lawgiver, if such a word could now 
 be obtained, to put the torch to the pile, and to rekindle in this virgin 
 hemisphere the flames in which their oracle, Calvin, consumed the 
 poor Servetus, because he could not subscribe the proposition of Cal- 
 vin, that magistrates have a right to exterminate all heretics to the 
 Calvinistic creed. They pant to re-establish by law, that Holy Inqui- 
 sition, which they can now only infuse into public opinion." p. 322, 
 letter to William Short. Will my friend take this testimony to the 
 letter 1 Jefferson had more opportunities for judging than La Fayette, 
 and he knew this country better. But, sir, I agree with La Fayette, 
 thai all priests are to be dreaded in this sense ; that none of them should 
 be allowed a particle of political ascendency in this country. Our
 
 286 DEBATE Oy THE 
 
 main danger is from ambitious priests of various denominations. When 
 they confine themselves to their only sphere of usefulness, they are 
 the best friends of mankind ; when they depart from it, the worst ty- 
 rants of the darkest ages of Paganism were not .more intolerant than 
 they. A hyena is a lamb, to a minister of Christ, who casts off the 
 livery and the peaceful spirit of his master, and turns round to denounce 
 and abuse his fellow-men for obeying the sacred dictates of conscience, 
 and adhering to a religion, which, no matter how much persecuted and 
 calumniated, they believe to be divine. I could say much more on this 
 subject, but it is not the most suitable time. 
 
 The charge has been made against all denominations, but my oppo- 
 nent has singled from among them the Catholic, and made it the 
 scape-goat, -to bear the sins of all to oblivion. I must however re- 
 mind the audience that the Methodist conference, held, not so many 
 years ago, at Baltimore, denounced the Episcopalians, for contempla- 
 ting an alliance with England, to subvert the liberties of this coun- 
 try ; and alleged what they conceived to be no mean proof of trea 
 sonable designs on the part of the, then, obnoxious Episcopalians. 
 This proscriptive spirit is as old as Christianity. History informs 
 us that the inoffensive disciples of Jesus Christ, even in the golden 
 age of the apostles, were accused, convicted, and put to the most hor- 
 rible death, precisely on the charge of hating all mankind" odio hu- 
 mani generis convicti sunt. Tacitus Annal. lib. xv. This celebra- 
 ted historian terms the Christians " sontes, reos, novissima exempla 
 meritos perflagitiu invisos," and calls their religion itself" exitialis 
 superstitio." They were, consequently, dressed in the skins of wild 
 beasts, and thus caricatured, the Pagans set their dogs upon them. 
 Jesus Christ, himself, when the Jews could convict him of no crime, 
 was charged by them with not being a friend to Cassar. Pilate, who 
 'found no fault ' in Christ, was willing to release him, bnt the Jews 
 cried out, "if thou release this man, thou art not Caesar's friend;" 
 that moment the just one sank, oppressed beneath the malice and slan- 
 der of his enemies ! We, as his disciples, can expect no better fate 
 than our master's. He foretold all that now befalls us. " Blessed 
 are you," says he, " when men shall revile you and persecute you, 
 and speak all manner of evil against you, untruly, for my sake : be glad 
 and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven." St. Matth. 
 V. 11, 12. 
 
 We have, the gentleman says, no authentic translation of the scrip- 
 tures. This is not true. We have a Latin translation, the vulgate. 
 That is one authentic translation. We have, moreover, an approved 
 translation in the vernacular, sanctioned by all the bishops in the 
 United States, and for sale in every city in the union. But if, by an 
 authentic bible, we mean one perfectly immaculate, in point of typo- 
 graphical execution and mechanical neatness, I ask the gentleman, 
 can he pretend that any Protestant denomination has such a one ? 
 Yet my friend says, notwithstanding the facts I quoted yesterday 
 morning, respecting a new bible, that they have a bible that is suffi- 
 cient. If that is the case, where is the use of a new translation ! He 
 speaks of Sixtus-' and Clement's bible. That only shews that the 
 popes never taught that their personal opinions were to be received, 
 as articles of faith, as my friend would persuade us they d4d. Pri- 
 vate authority should not presume to alter the authorised version 
 This was the amount of the prohibition.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. Z8l 
 
 Now to post the books with my friend on the subject of the bibla, 
 1 ask him if he was not infatuated, for I really cannot call it by any 
 other name, when he said he could show us a bible never soiled by 
 the thumb of a monk, and took us right into the midst of twenty two 
 monasteries, on mount Athos,/or the proof? Home in his Introduction 
 to the study of the Bible, vol. 1. p. 222, quotes Oudin and Michaelis, 
 for the opinion that it was written by an Aecmet and written too, say 
 Burber and Wetstein, for a church or a monastery. Home says the Aec- 
 mets were a class of monks in the ancient church, who flourished partic- 
 ularly in the east in the fifth century. They were so called, because 
 they had divine service performed without interruption, in their 
 churches. They divided themselves into three bodies, each of which 
 officiated in turn, and relieved the other so that their churches were 
 never silent either night or day. This very Mss. Codex Alexandrinus, 
 in the British Museum, contains a list of the Psalms sung by these 
 monks ! 
 
 My friend says that our getting the bible from monks, does not 
 leave us beholden to them for its spirit. This is a disingenuous eva- 
 sion. I did not say that it did, but this last question belongs to quite 
 another category. My opponent says that the bible, like the universe, 
 must testify to its own divine.origin it is the work of God. In this 
 he is completely at issue with one of the most enlightened Protestants 
 of the day, bishop Smith, of Kentucky. " These Christians," says 
 the bishop, in his review of Van Dyck on Christian union, " have done 
 well in agreeing upon those sound principles of investigation which 
 lead them to substantial, and sufficient agreement, what the canon of 
 scripture is. The principle is correct, and therefore all honest minds 
 rest satisfied, in the same results. Abandon the question of the one- 
 ness of the bible, to be agitated and kept afloat on the perturbed 
 ocean of expedience, as the question is, respecting the oneness of the 
 church, and very soon we should have amongst us almost as many 
 books claiming to be bibles, as we have sects claiming to be churches. 
 A.nd what are the laws of evidence, guided by which, all Christians 
 come to such a desirable agreement as to the canon of the scripture ] 
 Do we settle that grave point by appeals to the scripture alone ? Do 
 we require a " thus saith the Lord," for the admission of any book 
 within the compass of the bible ?" Ay, this is the question, do we 
 take up the bible from the shelf, and putting it to our ear, ask it what 
 it-has to say for itself] If we do, we shall lay it aside without re- 
 ceiving the desired answer, pretty much as the Indian chief did, when 
 the Spanish missionary handed him the good book. " It says noth- 
 ing," said the Indian. How then shall we proceed in this investiga- 
 tion 1 " We select," says bishop Smith, " some, period of Christian 
 antiquity by universal consent anterior to great corruptions, and that 
 we may be safe, anterior to great causes tending to corruption ; the 
 year 300 for example, prior to the conversion of Constantine ; or the 
 year 250, when the documents of the then existing Christianity were 
 abundant ; or the year 200, when men were living who had conversed 
 with the disciples of John, and we ask, what books were received by 
 Christians, every where, and with one consent, as sacred books; and 
 these, and no others, we admit into our canon. Then with the ut- 
 most care \ve look into every previous writer, for concurring or for op- 
 posing evidence. Finding every thing nearly clear and satisfactory, 
 we repair to the books of the New Testament tlmselves for acci-
 
 288 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and internal evidence, to endorse for and confirm the whole. 
 And here we rest satisfied that we have grasped the TRUTH." 
 
 How will the champion of Protestantism extricate himself from 
 this dilemma 1 Does he confess his ignorance of the leading doctrines 
 of eminent Protestant divines ? They find a unanimous consent. 
 
 He talks of two great lies ! I like strong language, but this is such 
 as Milton's Satan would have better used, than a professing Christian. 
 How Jews and Infidels will triumph, when assured by my opponent 
 lhat Christ's preaching and miracles, so signally failed, that the largest 
 body of Christians in the entire world, have been based upon two great 
 lies, since the year 250, or about that period ! Take away the 
 2,000,000 Catholic and Greek Christians that believe in these two 
 great truths, and think it blasphemy to call them lies, and what be- 
 comes of the few stragglers that remain in the valleys of the Alps, 
 or where you please the " rari nantes in gurgite vasto?" Did Christ 
 expend all his labor, all his blood, to give mankind, one kind of 
 idolatry for another ? Credat Jud&us, 
 
 Now, my friends, dispossess your minds of prejudice ; forget your 
 religions education, if possible; take up the Bible, and see if it be 
 wholly silent upon these two great truths, not/ees. For 2, or 300,000,000 
 who have not all lost their reason, adhere to these divine doctrines, 
 which they find in this blessed volume. I speak unto you as wise 
 and pious men. Judge you, yourselves, and do not let others judge for 
 you, what I say. I quote the Bible which you all admit, as I have 
 hitherto quoted Protestant authority, which you admit on all cases, to 
 be not over friendly to Roman Catholic doctrines. I disdained to avail 
 myself of the weeds which you threw over your garden walls, I mean im 
 moral and degraded ministers, as my opponent has done with discarded 
 priests, to cast your doctrine with them. With such, we hold no fel- 
 lowship. The pure of life, the men of honor and of learning, whom 
 we receive from your ranks, we cherish. From the Bible, then, the 
 fathers, the most eminent Protestants, I shall select my proofs, that, 
 on these two imputed lies, the Catholic church, like St. Paul, so Christ 
 is her witness, speaks the truth in righteousness. 
 
 To begin from the Bible. If there is a single tenet of Christian 
 faith, clearly established in'the Bible, I contend that it is the real 
 presence of Jesus Christ, in the adorable- sacrament of the Eucharist. 
 And if we cannot take in the literal sense, the words of Christ, 
 " This is my body ; This is my blood," the plainest that God or man 
 could utter, but must adopt, instead of this, some one of the two 
 thousand meanings, invented by the sacramentarians, and the anti- 
 sacramentarians, for this text, we may bid adieu to the doctrine of the 
 intelligibility of scripture. I distinguish two principal epochs in the 
 Gospel narrative; the first, when Jesus Christ promises to give us his 
 body and blood in the Eucharist; the second, when he gives them to 
 us. Before announcing his desire of bequeathing to the world this 
 divine legacy, as we read in the 6th chapter of the Gospel of St. John. 
 he wrought a splendid miracle, even the feeding of 5000, with a few 
 loaves, in the wilderness, to prove himself the God whom the heavens 
 and the earth obey, and thus conciliate the faith of the multitude in 
 the divinity of his mission, and the truth of his doctrines. He speaks 
 of the absolute necessity of this faith of its scarcity, and expressly 
 declares that the sight of his miracles, or the testimony of the sense, 
 pannot beget faith. In a word, that no man can come to him, unks
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 289 
 
 kitfa'her draw him. He then continues his divine instructions, by 
 alluding 1 to the miracle which he had wrought, in which was a most 
 Biriktng resemblance to the greater miracle which he designed to 
 work, viz. the multiplication of his own body and blood, for the daily, 
 the super-substantial bread, or food, of men, with whom, as he else- 
 where assures us, in scripture, it is his delight to dwell. He reminds 
 his hearers of all the wonders wrought in their favor, in the old -Law*, 
 shews them all the wisdom, the power, the love of Heaven, displayed 
 in their behoof, from the commencement of their history ; how dear 
 Ihey were to God, and further and better gifts, which, if want of faith op- 
 posed no obstacle, so many divine pledges gave them a right to antici- 
 pate. The greatest of Kings, even Solomon, in all his glory, had 
 n<. thing better to give them than gold and silver, a city, a tract of land. 
 No earthly king can compete with God, in conferring benefits. This 
 the history of the Jews sufficiently attested ; and the miracle of the 
 loaves brought affectingly to their minds, what their fathers had told 
 them, what they, themselves, had read in the testimony, of the manna 
 or miraculous bread, which, for so many years had been showered 
 down from heaven, to feed their ancestors in the desert. They were 
 thus prepared for all that GOD could accomplish to show his EXCESS OF 
 LOVE. They whom his father called, who are taught nf God, hear with 
 faith ; they whom his father called not, hear with incredulousness, 
 while he thus announces his own intended benefactions. 
 
 ' This is the bread which came down from heaven. If any eat of 
 this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give is my 
 flesh for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among 
 themselves, saying, "how can this man give us his flesh to eat ?" 
 Then Jesus said to them, ' Amen, amen, I say to you, except you eat 
 the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have 
 life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath 
 everlasting life ; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh 
 is meat indeed ; and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my 
 flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the 
 living Father sent me, and I live by the Father, so he that eateth me, 
 the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down 
 from Heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead ; he 
 that eateth this bread shall live forever.' These things he said, teach- 
 ing in the synagogue at Capernaum. Many, therefore, of his disci- 
 ples, hearing it, said, this is a hard saying, and who can hear it? 
 cut Jesus knowing, in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, 
 said to them, ' doth this scandalize you 1 If then, you shall see the 
 Son of man ascend up where he was before ] It is the spirit that 
 quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing. But there are some of yo 
 that believe not.' For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they wcr 
 that did not believe, and who he was that would betray him. And he 
 said, ' therefore no man can come to me unless it be given him by my 
 Fathor.' After this many of his disciples went back, and walked no 
 more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve, will you, also go 
 away? And Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? 
 thou hast the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and know 
 that, thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus answered them, 
 have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil.' Now he 
 meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for this same was about to 
 betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve." 
 2 19
 
 290 DEBATE ON THK 
 
 We have here a continuous argument, and faith and rnfidelitv , pie~ 
 tured to the life ; murmuring at impossibilities then, as well aj> i.uw. 
 rebuked by the Savior, and acquiescence in his word and his love, by 
 Peter, as the first believer of the divinity of the SON OF GOD of HIS 
 REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist. If he spoke figuratively, would he 
 have suffered his disciples, who understood the reality, to leave him , 
 he who came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel ? Would 
 he have suffered all his disciples to perish, rather than tell them this 
 single fact, that they misunderstood him 1 If he spoke of a figurative 
 presence, the words, " how can ynu believe when you see the Sun if 
 man, ascending up to Heaven, where he was before,' 1 '' would ktive had no 
 sense. In the Catholic view of the Eucharist, it is divinely strong-, 
 If you cannot believe, now, that my flesh and blood are visible, pal- 
 pable objects of every sense, that I can give them to you for food T 
 how much less can you believe it, when you see the Son of Man as- 
 cending up to Heaven, &c. The flesh surely profiteth nothing to un- 
 derstand this mystery it requires the faith and the spirit of faith, to 
 impose silence on the senses, and say, with St. Peter, " Lord, to whom 
 should we go Thou hast the words of eternal life." This is the- 
 bread which strengthens us to live out successive ages. This is nol 
 an immoral doctrine. It elevates man to know that he is THUS loved. 
 That he is of a holy race, a purchased people, a royal priesthood, 
 the especial object of incessant wonders. That he beholds God with 
 Tiini, Immanuel r in Bethlehem, house of bread, hid beneath the sacra- 
 mental veil, but destined, and prepared by this nourishment, to enjoy 
 him hereafter, without a veil, in the rich effulgence of the beatific 
 vision. [Time expired.} 
 
 Half past II o'clock, A. M. 
 MR. CAMPBE.LJ., rfses 
 
 My opponent in commencing observed, that almost the whole circle 
 of Catholic tenets came in review in my last speech. If such be an> 
 error, whose fault is it 1 ? I have no respondent. How many hours has 
 the gentleman spent in reading against time, without any relevancy 
 to the questions at issue, or to the proposition before us. And 
 when he does reply, it is frequently to something said a day or two> 
 ago. 
 
 I selected two points yesterday afternoon as comprehending the 
 substance of the error opposed in my fifth proposition, and even to the 
 present moment he has not presumed to meet me on these vital mat 
 ters to discuss thenu In rny last speech, I therefore not only recapitu- 
 lated some important items ; but argued one or two specifications, in- 
 proof of the proposition legally before us. I also introduced in part my 
 seventh proposition, and so far discussed its bearings as to show the 
 an ti- American, and anti-Republican theories of the Latin church. 
 
 The bishop has, indeed, this time, selected the doctrine of transub- 
 stantiation : but has he adverted to the various points of argument I 
 have made? Ought he not, at least, to have glanced at these points, 
 in order ? 
 
 1. The incongruity of the idea of a sacrament with that of traBSub- 
 stantiation. 
 
 2. The unreasonableness of preferring the literal to the figurative, in 
 the interpretation of a phrase common in scripture, which m iw utheB 
 case is so interpreted by the party themselves.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 291 
 
 3. The arrogance of the priests in assuming the power of working 
 miracles, for the sake of a forced interpretation of a phrase without 
 precedent or analogy. 
 
 4. The belief of such a transubstantiation destroys the credibility of 
 all testimony, human and divine, and necessarily tends to atheism. 
 
 5. That the institution of the supper is commemorative and not ex- 
 piatory, having nothing of the nature of a sacrifice for sin. 
 
 To which of these important considerations has the gentleman re- 
 plied in his last speech 1 Has he formally and specifically met any 
 one of them ? 
 
 It was also alleged, that the admission of such a pretension, on the 
 part of any priest, was debasing and paralizing to the human under- 
 standing, and subjected to imposture and fraud those who implicitly 
 acquiesced in it. There are few persons, who so observantly trace 
 moral effects to their causes, as to be able duly to appreciate how 
 much influence in the formation of human character may philosophi- 
 cally be ascribed to such idle, absurd, and irrational pretensions. 
 We sometimes see with what little power, reason, philosophy, and 
 experience combat the belief in witches, ghosts, apparitions, and 
 other legendary tales, the effect of the nursery and early impressions. 
 When the imagination is once filled with -such tales and delusions, it 
 requires a power equal to the dispossession of demons to rectify it, and 
 elevate it above such a tormenting infatuation. 
 
 The gentleman, indeed, with a show of respect for scripture, seem- 
 ed to appeal to the 6th chapter of John, as though it spoke of the 
 same thing. Now, unless this discourse relates to the last supper, 
 and was delivered with respect to it, how idle to seek to prove from 
 it what was never said in. it! It was a discourse upon loaves and 
 manna, delivered to the people of Capernaum in their synagogue, on 
 the occasion of our Lord having fed five thousand men in the desert, 
 upon a few loaves and fishes. And as at the well of Jacob he spoke 
 of the water of life , so here, when the miracle of loaves is the topic, 
 he speaks of the bread of life: and of eating that bread, as to the wo- 
 man of Samaria, he spoke of drinking that water. He goes on to 
 speak fij iratively of coming to him, eating him, never hungering, never 
 thirstiny again, &c., and in the most figurative style, continues his 
 discourse, till at last, after he had spoken of their eating his flesh and 
 drinking his blood, he told them that the words he spoke " were spirit 
 and life," not literal flesh and blood that flesh and blood could no* 
 profit the soul. And so the apostle Peter understood him when he 
 said, " Lord thou hast the words of eternal life." In metaphori- 
 cal language, it is usual to say, ' one hungers and thirsts after knowl- 
 edge, righteousness,' &c. ; and to say that one eats what he believes 
 and receives into his mind. Thus says David : " I found thy wora, 
 and I did eat it." The transubstantiation of John vi. is the very op- 
 posite of the transubstantiation before us. It was flesh into bread, as 
 the figure given in John ; and bread into flesh, as the figure given in 
 the Eucharist. " I am the living bread." " My flesh is meat, indeed,'' 
 " My blood is drink, indeed." " The bread which I give is my flesh.'-' 
 
 But the gentleman relies upon the Savior's leaving them in error, 
 suffering them to go away in a mistake. If this were true ; I can find 
 a similar case. To the proud and captious, he often deigned no reply 
 Hence, when some went away from his discourse, alleging that he
 
 292 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 was born in Nazareth, he took no pains to correct the error, though 
 it would seem that a single v-ord would have decided the case. He 
 knew what manner of spirit they were of, and never said once ; I was 
 not born in Nazareth ; but in Bethlehem. But to conclude, the sub 
 ject of discussion in John vi. is about receiving him coming to him 
 believing him to be the Messiah, &c., and was addressed to ambitious 
 obstinate Jews. The subject in Matth. xxvr. and 1 Cor. xi. is his 
 Savior's death, sacrifice and the commemoration of it, addressed to his 
 disciples. It is, then, every way illogical to reason from the one to 
 the other, as parallel cases. 
 
 But I would ask, how is a man to believe the same sense at one 
 time, am" disbelieve it at another, when in reading Paul or Matthew 
 he sees the words, " (his is my body" and when looking on the table, 
 he sees not flesh but bread, why should he believe what he sees in 
 the former case, and disbelieve what he sees in the latter case. That 
 he sees bread is certain ; why not then believe his eyes ? Or, if he 
 rejects them here, why not reject them there, on the words, " This is 
 my body ?" and believe that it reads, " this represents my body !" 
 But even after the consecration, and after Jesus had said, " This is 
 my blood," he clearly teaches, that he spoke in a figure : for, adds 
 he, " I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine with you," &c. 
 And Paul, after consecration says, " He that eateth this bread, and 
 drinketh this cup unworthily" fee. 
 
 Were it, however, converted into flesh, we would have to ask, 
 what sanctifying power in flesh? or, what spiritual food would there 
 be in the human flesh of the Son of God ? And were it omnipresent, 
 how would the eating of it as a sin offering, take aw T ay sin from the 
 conscience ? ! The virtue was in the altar, on which the sacrifice 
 was offered : for " it is the altar that sanctifies the gift." And had 
 it not been for the true and proper divinity of the Son of God, his 
 flesh as a sin offering, coum in no sense profit any person. But the 
 priest can bring down the divine Savior from heaven, and offer him, 
 body, soul, and divinity, as otten as he pleases; and have the people 
 adore both him and the miracle in his hand ! ! He that can believe 
 all this, is not to be reasoned with. 
 
 The gentleman's remarks on. " Tarn with you" even after so many 
 hours' reflection since I expounded them, have not the slightest refer- 
 ence to any thing I have said. I could not have thought it possible 
 for a child to have so misynrterstoed and misapplied them. I need 
 not again repeat them. They are wholly misrepresented. He has 
 " defied heaven and earth." What a daring logician ! Yes ; he 
 " defied heaven and earth,'' on what? To weaken ,as argument on 
 infallibility ! It would be hard indeed, to weaken that, which has no 
 strength. Perhaps he might defy Omnipotence to weaken what does 
 not exist. But the bishop is just as fallible as your humble servant; 
 and his church (I may with confidence say) is even more fallible 
 than the Protestant church : for, our rule of faith is perfect and com- 
 plete : his rule, as I have shown, is imperfect and immoral. 
 
 " But Protestants are better than their principles !" Indeed ! Their 
 principles are the bible alone. Their acknowledged principles, cer- 
 tainly, are those to which my friend refers ! A good argument ! I 
 read the other day something like this " Bad as human nature is, 
 there is no man on earth bad enough to make a good papist." " Thfl 
 system cannot be carried out fully by any person." Would my learn
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC hELIGION. 293 
 
 ed antagonist call this a good argument against his system ? und ir 
 it not as logical as that which he has just alleged ? 
 
 The bishop accuses Mr. Smith of ingratitude. I have something 
 more to do than to defend .Mr. Smith from such groundless imputa- 
 tions. Every one who abjures Catholicism, is a wretch : for Protest- 
 ants are all heretics ! The best return Mr. Smith or any person can 
 make for favors received, is to disabuse the minds of his benefactors 
 from error, if they happen to entertain it. The best and most grate- 
 ful return that I could make to a Roman Catholic benefactor, for any 
 benefit conferred, would be, if possible, to convince and save him from 
 the most ruinous and destructive heresy that time records, or ever 
 will record. 
 
 Next comes the Secreta Monila , for we must circumnavigate another 
 circle in this speech also. The Secreta Manila, then, is just as accu- 
 rate and fair a view of the spirit, design, and policies, of that order, as 
 can be given. Such is our faith : and that on no mean testimony 
 either. 
 
 We shall give some account of the discovery of this said book : 
 
 " We are indebted for this " terrible book" of Jesuits' 
 
 ecrtts, to the parliament of Paris. They passed the act to abolish the Jesuits 
 society : and the execution came on tlie Jesuit college like a thunder stroke. 
 Their palace was surrounded by troops, and their papers and books, and these 
 " Secret Instructions'' were seized before they had heard that the parliament 
 had taken up their cause!" 
 
 The reasons which the parliament of France, in 1762, gave for ex- 
 tirpating this order, which has thirty-nine times been proscribed, speak 
 volumes : 
 
 "The consequences of their doctrines destroy the law of nature: break all the 
 bonds of civil society: authorizing lying, theft, perjury, the utmost uncleanness, 
 murder, and all sins! Their doctrines root out all sentiments of humanity: excite 
 rebellion: root out all religion: and substitute all sorts of superstition, blasphe- 
 my, irreligion, idolatry." 
 
 Other reasons for the suppression of this order, will be found in the 
 following extract from their oath : 
 
 . " In the presence of Almighty God and of all the saints, to 
 
 you, my ghostly father, I do declare that his holiness, pope , is Christ's 
 
 vicar-general, and the only head of the universal church throughout the earth: 
 and that by virtue of .the keys given him by my Savior, Jesus Christ, he hath 
 power to depose heretical kings, princes, states, commonwealths, and govern- 
 ments: all being illegal, without his sacred confirmation; and that they may 
 safely be destroyed. Therefore I, to the utmost of my power, shall and will de- 
 fend his doctrine, and his holiness' rights and customs against all usurpers," &c. 
 
 " I do renounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king 
 prince, state, named Protestants, or obedience to any of their inferior magistrates, 
 or officers." 
 
 "I do further promise and declare that notwithstanding I am dispensed with, 
 to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the mother church's in 
 terest, to keep secret and private, all her agent's counsels," &c. 
 
 " All which I, A. B. do swear by the blessed Trinity, and the blessed sacra- 
 ment, which I am now to receive. And I call all the heavenly and glorious 
 hosts above, to witness these my real intentions, to keep this my oath. In tes- 
 timony hereof, I take this most blessed sacrament of the eucharist, and set my 
 hand and sc;tl." 
 
 Such is the order of men restored by Saint Pius VII., who, for re- 
 storing them and the inquisition, ("the vice of the dark ages ! !") has 
 been beatified, and enrolled in the Roman heavens, as a saint of tin 
 first order! Is it not in striking and thrilling harmony with the ge- 
 nius of our institutions, to have priests of this order, all over the land 
 z2
 
 294 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 _ 
 
 in charge of the souls and consciences of American citizens ? ! So 
 much for Jesuitism. 
 
 I ought not to have called errors " lies," as the apostle John, and 
 the other apostles, have done. Why ] All errors are lies ; and all 
 who propagate them are, by the same apostle, John, called liars. "All 
 liars," says he, (teachers of error,) shall have their part in a certain 
 lake, Was it not impolite for the apostle, thus to use such a vulgar 
 style ] I must, then, have fallen into bad company, when I said, the 
 man of sin stands upon two cardinal lies ! 
 
 Next comes the doctrine of majorities; and these are every thing 
 with a Romanist. They are the root, and reason, and illustration, and 
 proof of infallibility. The man who seeks the truth by the tests of 
 sincerity, majority, and antiquity, will never find it on earth. This is 
 amply true of the present and all past ages. There are sincere Turks, 
 Jews, pagans, infidels. There are very ancient errors, heresies, and 
 sects. And, as for majorities, from Enoch till now, they have gener- 
 ally, if not always, been wrong in religion. Where was the. majority, 
 when Noah was building his ark ] when Abraham forsook Urr of the 
 Chaldees] when Lot abandoned Sodom'? when Moses forsook 
 Egypt? when Elijah witnessed against Ahab 1 when Daniel and his 
 companions were captives in Babylon ! when Malachi wrote] when 
 the Baptist preached] when Christ was crucified ? when the apostles, 
 and many of the first Christians, were persecuted ] ! 
 
 And, compared with paganism, when had Roman Catholicism the 
 majority ] Strange, indeed, that infallibility, after all this, should 
 come to be the attribute of majorities ! But the bishop, in his speech 
 against Luther, delivered here in October last, said there were one 
 hundred and fifty million Roman Catholics. I cannot find them on the 
 earth, unless I count many millions of atheists and pagans along with 
 them. But, after a more accurate search, I find there are in all, but 
 one hundred and ten millions of professed Roman Catholics, and 
 amongst these, millions of sceptics : of Protestants, there are seventy- 
 five millions; and of the Greek church, above forty millions; making 
 at least one hundred and fifteen millions of Protesters against the 
 man of sin. If, then, there be anything in majorities, the Romanists 
 have it not. Infallibility is somewhere else. The time comes, (and 
 may heaven speed its flight !) when the kingdom, and the greatness 
 of the kingdom, under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people 
 of the saints of the Most High, when all dominions shall serve and 
 obey him. But Babylon will never see that day ; for she will be 
 buried in her own ruins before it comes. And when the angel, with the 
 trumpet of everlasting good news, shall sound the hour of her judgment 
 as come, and announce the triumph of the gospel ; then, but not till then, 
 will the majority be on the side of God, and Christ, and heaven. 
 
 I am only now at the place where I left off in my former speech, 
 and my half hour is almost expired. I cannot again condescend to 
 such a sacrifice of time to so many points. 
 
 I was showing, when I sat down, that the theory of spiritual des- 
 potism always precedes the practical display of it ; and that the theory 
 of the terrific and appalling despotism of papal Rome, is to be found 
 in principles and theories promulged, and believed, and taught, before 
 the reign of darkness and terror began. 
 
 The fact of putting the bible under a bushel, of forbidding the read-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 295 
 
 ing of it, of swearing for ever to interpret it as it has be?.n interpreted, 
 of not permitting men to think or speak for themselves on religion, of 
 teaching them the power of the priests to work miracles, to create a 
 god out of bread, that the people might adore it and them, of making' 
 a supreme judge of controversy out of one of the parties, or combining 
 the legislative, executive, and judicial powers in one person, (the 
 model of the most cruel despotism,) is the paragon of supreme tyranny, 
 never surpassed, never equaled on earth. 
 
 How any person can, from such a system, elaborate a single ele- 
 ment of free government, or of civil liberty, I cannot imagine. Indeed, 
 the radical ideas of papal supremacy, are as antipodal to republican 
 doctrine and American institutions, as are the zenith and the nadir ' 
 But my time has fled. 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 Bis HOP PURCELL rises 
 
 I have only to stand here for half a minute, and to open the bible, to 
 reduce to dust the arguments which it costs my opponent such a waste 
 of time and labor to construct. Was not Civil and Ecclesiastical power 
 united in the high priest, by the Almighty God, himself] Is not this re- 
 corded in Deuteronomy, and admitted by my worthy antagonist ? What 
 says the scripture. 
 
 " If you perceive, that there be among you, a hard and doubtful matter in 
 judgment, between blood and blood, cause and cause, leprosy and leprosy; and 
 thou see that the words of judgment within the gates, do vary ; arise and go up 
 to the place which the Lord thy God shall choose. And thou shalt come to the 
 priests of the Levitical race, and to the judge thai shall be at that time; and 
 thou shalt ask of them, and they shall shew thee the truth of the judgment. And 
 thou shalt do whatsoever they shall say, that preside in the place, which the 
 Lord shall choose, and what they shall teach thee accord m to this law: and 
 thou shalt follow their sentence, neither shalt thou decline to the right hand nor 
 to the left hand. But he that will be proud, and refuse to obey the command- 
 ment of the priest, who ministereth at that time to the LordVJod, and the decree 
 of the judge, that man shall die, and thou shalt take away the evil from Israel." 
 Deut. xvii. 8, et seq'. 
 
 Here is civil power, and ecclesiastical authority blended in one 
 tribunal, of the presiding priest and of the Levitical ministry, and the 
 penalty of death ordained by God, against him who contends for private 
 judgment and refuses to obey. 
 
 Now, my friends, if Mr. C. seriously intends to employ reason and 
 argument, instead of the calumny and abuse too often employed in re- 
 ligious discussions heretofore, why does he rake up from a pile of 
 rubbish, sad memorial of the havoc made by the enemies of the Je- 
 suits, and exhibit the tattered, and sordid, documents found there, for 
 proof"? I expected " honor bright" from my friend, when we began 
 this debate, and I still expect it. Have I not dealt fairly myself! 
 Have I gone to the sewers and streets, as he has done to those of Cracow 
 and Paris for the Secreta Manila, for evidence against the Protestants ? 
 No ! I have quoted their most respectable authorities I have taken up 
 Southey, and Waddington, and such writers. I do not think it honor- 
 able to stoop down, and pick up from the gutter, all the vile trash, that 
 Protestants have written against one another; much less that, which 
 the enemies of Protestants may have invented ; and I do not expect 
 this course from my friend, in his attempt to fasten upon Catholics, the 
 sins which they abhor. " Why did the parliament of Paris destroy the 
 poeiety of the Jesuits ?" I will tell the gentleman. Because they
 
 296 DEBATE 03V THE 
 
 had become the disciples of the man, who boasted that " he was tired ii 
 hearing it said, that twelve men had been able to convert the world ft ,m 
 paganism to Christianity, for that he would let it be seen that one nan 
 was able to unchristianize it." This was the boast of Voltaire, who, 
 at the head of his letters to the infidel conspirators leagued with him 
 against revelation, was accustomed to write the words ; " Ecrasons Fin- 
 fame" Ltt us crush the wretch, meaning Jesus Christ and his holy re 
 ligion. These anti-christian machinations could never succeed, and 
 their authors were too wide awake in their hostility to the Christian 
 faith, not to be aware of the fact, as long as religion commanded the 
 services of so learned and exemplary a body of men as the Jesuits. 
 In all the entire world, in- China and in France, in America and in 
 Europe, society, as well as pure religion was their debtor. In every 
 language they wrote the most admirable treatises on the mathematics, 
 on medicine, on geography. Their historians, orators, poets, mission- 
 aries, have never been surpassed. Mr. Secretary Cass and Richard 
 Peters of Philadelphia, recorder of the Supreme Court, will inform 
 you, for they have examined it, how perfectly accurate is their map of 
 Lake Superior with its 1500 miles of coast, which one or two of these 
 fathers, while seeking the red man, for Jesus Christ, in their frail 
 canoe, found time to survey. In a word the Jesuits were ornaments 
 to human-nature, but they had, at the same time, the misfortune to be 
 the ornaments and the pillars of Religion. This Voltaire knew. His 
 infidel colleagues knew it. And as they were conscious that the lives 
 of the Jesuits defied their malice, and the learning of the Jesuits would 
 continue to confound their sophistry, they had no resource but to op 
 press them by calumny. Hence they spared no pains to render them ob 
 noxious to the Parliament of Paris, and reproduced the Sccreta Monita. 
 fabricated by some anonymous calumniator in 1612. The spurionsness , 
 of this paper has been every where admitted by the critics. Let not any 
 one who reads this controversy on the theatre of its exposure, learn 
 from it that erudition and honor are at so low an ebb in the United 
 States, as to admit as argument, an appeal to so contemptible a slander 
 As to the oath of the Jesuits, it is taken from the same book ! There 
 is no Jesuit that ever takes such an oath. Every Jesuit in the United 
 States, who is not a native of the country, and intends to reside in 
 it, has taken the oath of allegiance to our government. And in George- 
 town, in the District of Columbia, in Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky, 
 are native American Jesuits, some of the most whole-souled and tho 
 rough-going republicans in the world, prepared, at 'any moment, to imi 
 tate the patriotic example of the first of their order in the United States, 
 Arch-bishop Carroll, the friend and associate of Washington. In this 
 pirit they are rivaled by the rest of our clergy. That venerable 
 Id priest, now before you, has done for half a century, and specially 
 in those perilous times that tried men's souls, when a formidable ene- 
 my was on our frontier, within our borders nay in our very capital, 
 and committing our noblest monuments to the' flames, more for freedom, 
 happiness and THE UNION, than any other living man, perhaps, of the 
 clerical profession. The Latin poems, which he published during the 
 war, breathing the energy and spirit of the songs of the Greeks, when 
 they struck down the tyrants, were translated into English, and 
 widely circulated. General Harrison, if he were here to-day, would 
 inform you, as h has informed me, by my fire-side, what loyal men
 
 BOM AN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 297 
 
 mid true were the Catholic missionaries of Indiana and Missouri, in 
 auld lang syne. How they exerted all their influence, and it was not 
 inconsiderable, to keep the Indians faithful to the cause of free govern- 
 ment. My friends, if I must have an opponent, let me have an honorable 
 one : let me have facts and proofs, instead of slanders and insinuations. 
 And, to say all in one word, in answer to the charges against the 
 Jesuits, Why did the parliament of Paris restore the rder in France 11 
 Ay, that is the question. I will tell the gentleman. Because they 
 discovered their blunder, and the injustice they had committed in sup- 
 pressing them, and the prostrate state of education, after the Jesuits 
 had been expelled the colleges. Then, with the magnanimity of the 
 corporation of London, a few years ago, who honorably chipped off 
 the inscription from the pillar, which, like a tall bully, raised its head 
 and lied, by attributing the conflagration of 1666 to the Roman Catho- 
 lics, did the parliament of Paris make partial atonement for the wrong 
 done to the Jesuits. These are examples worthy of our imitation in a 
 free and happy republic, where the iron heel of religious bigots should 
 not be allowed to bend so much as a blade of grass ! 
 
 I continue my argument for the real presence. I shall first produce 
 the sequel of the scripture evidence, and then reply to the objections 
 of my friend. The institution of the eucharist is related by three 
 evangelists, and by St. Paul ; by St. Matthew, who wrote his gospel, 
 in India, seven years after the death of Christ; by St. Mark, who 
 wrote his gospel in Rome, two years later, under the direction of St. 
 Peter ; by St. Luke, whose gospel was written in the nineteenth year 
 of the Christian era, in Asia; and by St. Paul, from Macedonia, in 
 Greece, fifty years later than St. Matthew, and who had learned what 
 he teaches, not from the other evangelists, but from the revelations 
 made to himself by Jesus Christ in person ; all writing at different 
 times, and in different places, and yet all using the self-same words, 
 the plainest in the languages in which they wrote, or in any other, 
 and the best adapted to the poor and illiterate, who had the gospel 
 preached to them. All these tell us, with one accord, in the Holy 
 Ghost, that the Lord, the night before he suffered, took bread into his 
 venerable and creating hands; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, (to 
 heaven, to show us whence that power was derived, that goodness 
 emanated,) he blessed and brake, and gave it to his disciples, to whom 
 ho had made the promise of his body, saying: "Take, and eat. This 
 is my body." In like manner, the chalice, saying: " Drink you all 
 of this. This is my blood of the New Testament." Now, these 
 words are so intelligible, and so clear, that if ever the principle, 
 that every one can interpret the bible for himself, should be admitted, 
 and enforced, and insisted on, it is surely here ; for there is scarcely 
 a possibility that .words so plain, and so - frequently repeated in their 
 plainness, should lead us into error. We may even safely ask, in the 
 hypothesis that Jesus Christ had really wished to leave us his body 
 and blood in the eucharist, what other words he could have used, to 
 signify more clearly the real presence in the sacrament ? He has, 
 however, in his incomprehensible wisdom and love, found something 
 plainer still ; for he not only said, " This is my body," but, as he 
 was then making a law, a will, where nothing should be left, in the 
 slightest manner, ambiguous, he added, " This is my body, which is 
 GIVEN FOR YOU, this is my blood, which SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU." 
 
 38
 
 298 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Was it a figurative body, that was delivered for us 1 Was it by figu- 
 rative blood, that we were redeemed ? Then are we yet in ..Mr sins, 
 and Jesus Christ has deceived us. This it were, in the last degree, 
 impious to suppose ; and, therefore, steadfast in the truth of what the 
 Son of God has done for us, we may say, as Tertullian said, on a 
 different occasion, to the innovators of his time : Under what pretence 
 do you come ?'nd why do you remove the landmarks. The estate is 
 ours : we have the ancient, the prior possession of it : we are the 
 heirs of Jesus Christ: he made his will in our favor; and, eternal 
 praise be given to him, he himself, the original proprietor, has deliv- 
 ered to us the title deeds (laying our hands on the bible.) Here is 
 the pillar, the fast anchor of our faith in the eucharist. But it is not 
 yet expedient to lay aside these texts, without conferring on them one 
 mark of attention more. In the twenty-second chapter of St. Luke, 
 18th, 19th, and 20th verses, we read of the institution of the eucharist, 
 as a sacrament, and as a sacrifice, in a manner more and more expli- 
 cit. "This," says the benefactor of the world, taking leave of it, 
 " this is my boJ^ , which is given for you ;" and in the Greek text of 
 the Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, " which is broken for you :' 
 " this is the chalice, the New Testament in my blood, which shall be 
 shed for you ;" and in the Greek text, ." which is shed for you, for 
 the remission of sins : do this in commemoration of me." Here, then, 
 is every thing essential to a true sacrifice, clearly prescribed. The 
 bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, 
 and offered, and ordered to be offered to his heavenly Father, for the 
 remission of sins. Now, hear how St. Paul, whose authority, upon 
 what I have already remarked of the circumstances in which he was 
 called to the apostleship, is entitled to special respect, speaks on this 
 subject, in his Epistle to the Corinthians: " Wherefore," says he, 
 ' my dearly beloved, I speak to you as to wise men ; judge ye your- 
 selves what I say. The chalice of benediction which we bless, 
 is it not the communion of the blood of Christ ? And the bread which 
 we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord ] Behold 
 Israel according to the flesh : are not they who eat of the (Pagan) 
 sacrifices, partakers of the altar 1 But the things which the heathens 
 sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And J would not 
 that you should be made partakers with devils. You cannot drink of 
 the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils : you cannot be par- 
 takers of the table of the Lord, and the table of devils." Who does 
 not see, in a text so plain, that St. Paul contrasts the table of Christ 
 with the altar of the Jews, and the table of devils, which the Gentiles 
 frequented. So that, in the same manner as the Jews partook of what was 
 offered on the altar, and the Gentiles of what was placed on the table af- 
 ter having been first sacrificed to the idols, so do the Christians par- 
 take of the table of the Lord, eating of that flesh which had been offered 
 for them, and with whose blood they had been sprinkled and purified. 
 But this argument would be weak and utterly inconclusive, if the 
 faithful, like the Jews and the Heathens, were not partakers of some- 
 thing really offered by them in sacrifice. Again, St. Paul, not only 
 here, but also in the Ep. to the Hebrews, speaks of an altar, " of an 
 altar, whereof they have no power to eat who serve the Tabernacle." 
 Now it is altogether an abuse of terms, a wilful leading of others 
 into error, to call that an altar on which sacrifice is never offered ; and 
 when St. Paul said we have an altar, whereof they cannot eat, who
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 299 
 
 remain attached to the Jewish religion, h^meant, no doubt what was 
 then understood by every one, that there was a victim offered by 
 Christians at that day, 36 years after Christ, and eaten by priest and 
 people. This is the victim of the eucharist, of which Matthew, 
 Mark, Luke and Paul speak so clearly, and so forcibly, and which 
 we must either now admit on the evidence of scripture, or fling the 
 sacred volume into the flames. My opponent may talk of Christ's 
 saying; "I am the vine ;" " I am the door;" " destroy the temple ;" 
 the ten lean kine, and the ten years of famine ; but, my friends, does 
 not the scripture explain its meaning, so as to leave no doubt as to the 
 sense of these, and twenty such texts besides. The dream .of Pharaoh, 
 and his butler's were most minutely interpreted and perfectly ex- 
 plained.' The evangelist expressly informs us, Christ spoke of the 
 temple of his body ; lest this expression should leave any doubt on 
 the mind of the reader as to the Savior's meaning. But where is the 
 parity between these passages and the words of Christ : "this is my 
 body this is my blood." " My flesh is meat indeed my blood is 
 drink indeed." Our Lord does not say of the vine, "this vine shall 
 be hung up for you," he does not say of the door, this door shall be 
 hung up for you, he does not say of the temple, or of the vine, " they 
 shall be offered for you ;" but he says all this as I shall shew, when 
 I come to speak of the institution when speaking of the divine 
 food which he gives us in the Eucharist. " This is my body which 
 is offered for you, this is my blood, which is shed for you" and as 
 he was then at the last hour of his life, and speaking heart to heart 
 to his friends, it was no time for parables and figures. The traitor 
 was nigh ; the hour was at hand, when he was to pass out of this 
 world to the Father. He knew how this doctrine would be contested, 
 that the VAST MAJORITY of Christians would believe in it, as they do at 
 this day, according to the obvious and literal meaning of the text, and 
 yet he speaks not one. word to induce us to believe in a figurative pre- 
 sence. Why ? Because he meant it to be understood literally, with 
 faith in his almighty power and his infinite love. Because as God, 
 he operates his greatest wonders, by the simplest words. " Let there 
 be light;" "Thy son liveth ;" "Lazarus, come forth;" " I will, be. 
 thou cleansed:" " Take up thy bed and walk;" "Peace! Be still ;" 
 ' Thin day shall thou be with me in Paradise ,-" " This is my body, 
 thin is my blood." This Luther himself was forced to admit. He 
 tolls us how very desirous he was, and how much he labored to over- 
 throw this doctrine, knowing how much he could, thereby, annoy the 
 pope : ' but,' says he, ' I found myself caught, without any way of 
 escaping; for the text of the gospel, was too plain for me." Epist. 
 ad Argintenses, t. 4. fol. 502. Ed. Wittemberg. In another place, he 
 says, condemning those who denied the corporal presence ; " The 
 devil seems to have mocked those to whom he has suggested a heresy 
 S3 ridiculous, and contrary to scripture, as that of the Zuinglians who 
 explained away the words of the institution in a figurative way." 
 , He elsewhere compares these glosses with the following translation 
 of the first words of the scripture : In principio Dens creavit caclurn 
 ct terrant. In the beginning the Cuckoo ate the sparrow and his fea- 
 thers. Def. verb. Dom. On one occasion he calls those who deny 
 the real and corporal presence ; " a damned sect, lying heretics, bread- 
 breakers, wine-drinkers, and soul-destroyers." In parv. catech. 
 On other occasions he says, "They are endevilized, and superdevi
 
 300 DEBATE 0?f THE 
 
 lized." Finally he devotts them to everlasting flames, and builds 
 his own hopes of mercy at the tribunal of Christ, on his having with 
 all his soul condemned Carlostad, Zuinglius, and other believers in 
 the symbolical presence. Bishop Bramhall thus writes : " No genuine 
 son of the church (of England) did ever deny a true, real presence. 
 Christ said TViis is my body, and what he said we steadfastly be- 
 lieve. He said neither CON, nor SUB, nor TRANS : therefore we place 
 those among the opinions of schools, not among articles of faith." 
 Ans. to Militiare, p. 74. Bishop Cosin is not less explicit, in favor 
 of the Catholic doctrine. He says, " It is a monstrous error to deny 
 that Christ^ is to be adored in the Eucharist. We confess the neces- 
 sity of a supernatural and heavenly change ; and that the signs can- 
 not become sacraments, but by the infinite power of God. If any one 
 make a bare figure of the sacrament, we ought not to suiTcr him in 
 our churches." Hist, de Transub. Lastly the profound Hooker ex- 
 presses himself thus ; I wish men would give themselves more to me- 
 ditate in silence, on what we have in the sacrament, and less' to dis- 
 pute of the manner how ; since we all agree that Christ, by the sacra- 
 ment, doth really and truly perform in us his promise, why do we 
 vainly trouble ourselves with so fierce contentions whether by con- 
 substantiation or else by transubstantiation 1." f}ccles. Polit. B. v. 67. 
 
 My opponent says that when we meditate any doctrine, we eat it. 
 So, then, when we meditate on hell we eat it and all its contents ! Ho 
 says we eat it spiritually, but this is nonsense. I want not the sto- 
 mach or the mind, such orthodoxy requires. 
 
 My friend observes, that the doctrine of transubstantiation is con- 
 trary to the testimony of our senses. We have nothing but our sr.n- 
 ses to guide us. This is the scepticism of Thomas Tanew : " Unless 
 I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my fin^en intn 
 the place of the nails, and put my hand intn his side, I will mil believe." 
 The Savior condescended to give the requisite proof of the senses, to 
 the doubting apostle, but he replied to the confession "My Lord and 
 my God," " Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed. 
 BLESSED ARE THEY THAT HAVE NOT SEEN, AND -HAVE BELIEVED." The 
 consequences of the doctrine of the real presence are not unworthy of 
 God. Every pretended absurdity is as justly chargeable on tne In- 
 carnation as on the Eucharist. In Pope and McGuire's discussion, 
 one of these is to be found, where my friend got the foregoing. It is 
 thaj; of a mouse, that is said to have once run away with the sacia- 
 ment. while the priest had his eyes shut saying his prayers. But is 
 this ridiculous story an argument ] Then deny that sin could be com- 
 mitted, for sin is a greater insult than this, to Jesus Christ. Deny 
 that hiff sacred person was outraged with blows and spittle ; that he 
 was dragged through the streets of Jerusalem, with the halter of ig- 
 nominy around his neck; that he was scourged, crowned with thorns, 
 crucified ; that his blood trickled to the ground ; that his executioners 
 trampled upon it; that insects and quadrupeds partook of it! all these 
 adorable scandals are the consequences of the infinite love with which 
 Jesus Christ loved us. The more he is humbled for our sakes, the 
 dearer should he be to us. But if the scandal of his humiliations 
 shake our faith, let the wisdom and the power of the Godhead, dis- 
 played in the midst of these 'humiliations, sustain and animate it. 
 Behold ! the earth that receives that falling blood, trembles to hei 
 very centre ; the sun, unable to behold the bloody tragedy, withdraws
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIO1V. 301 
 
 his light, and leaves the world in darkness and mourning and terroi, 
 for its author's dissolution ; the rocks are rent asunder; the graves 
 give uj> their dead ; the pagan centurion strikes his breast and ex- 
 claims " Truly this man was the Son of God." Let us also believe 
 and adore ! [Time expired.] 
 
 Three o'clock, P. M. 
 
 MR. CAMIMiKI.f, rises 
 
 Knowing, my fellow-citizens, how much depends in such a discus- 
 sion, as that now in progress, on having authentic documents, I deter- 
 mined from the beginning to rely on none which could, on proper evi- 
 dence, or with justice be repudiated. I knew that in all debates so far 
 back as the very era of the Reformation this party have been accus- 
 tomed to deny authorities, to dispute versions, translations, &c. even 
 of -their own writers who were so candid as to give a tolerably fair re- 
 presentation of themselves. And as all their historians, good and bad, 
 frequently tell the truth, they are all occasionally to be censured, when 
 that truth is quoted by a Protestant and turned to its proper account. 
 I have not then, to my knowledge or belief, introduced an unworthy 
 author. And so long as my opponent can disprove nothing which I 
 have quoted, either from Du Pin, or Ligori, his frequent allusions to 
 them, with such unqualified censures, only shows how much he feels 
 the truth of their testimony. 
 
 The Jesuits, that standing^army of the pope, are revived, and are 
 inundating our country. Other fraternities are but the militia: but 
 these are the trained band life-guards of the papacy. Their oath is full 
 proof of the spirit of the corps. My worthy opponent says, that they 
 are a very learned body of men, and that he is not now a Jesuit. So 
 much the worse. How then can he defend the order from the doc- 
 trines of the Secreta Manila ; and affirm that they do not now take the 
 oath which I read to you 1 He would represent me as picking out of 
 the streets, or out of the ruins of some fallen edifice the oaths and 
 books of the Jesuits. If that were the fact, would it disprove the con- 
 tents of these documents'? It would not. Truth is truth, wherever 
 found, in the street or in a temple in a cellar, or in a mountain. But I 
 did not so seek or find them. They are public and authentic documents, 
 and my opponent can only deny or dispute, but he cannot disprove them. 
 
 Here is another document, not from the ashes of a monastery. I 
 do not know the writer of this article : but it is from an Encyclopaedia. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. Is it the book of Fessenden & Co. 1 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. It is from their press. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. Ah ! I know it ! 
 
 Mr. Campbell reads: 
 
 4 In 1801 the society was restored in Russia by the emperor Paul; and in 1804 
 by kin'j Ferdinand, in Sardinia. In August, 1814, a buH was issued by pope 
 Pius VII. restoring the order to all their former privileges, and calling upon all 
 Catholics to afford them protection and encouragement. This act of their re- 
 rival is expressed in all the solemnity of the papal authority; and even affirmed 
 to be above the recall or revision of any judge, with whatever power he may be 
 clothed; but to every enlightened mind it cannot fail to appear as a measure al- 
 together incapable of justification, from any thing either in the history of Jesuit- 
 ism, or in the character of the present times. 
 
 " The essential principles of this institution namely, that their order is to be 
 maintained at the expense of societv at large, and that the end sanctifies the 
 means, are utterly incompatible with the welfare of any community of men. 
 Their system of lax. and pliant morality, justifying every vice, and authorizing 
 
 >i A
 
 302 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 every atrocity has left deep and lasting ravages on the face of the moral world. 
 Their zeal to extend the jurisdiction of the court of Rome over eve y civil 
 government, gave currency to tenets respecting the duty of opposing princes 
 who were hostile to the Catholic faith, which shook the basis of all political al- 
 legiance, and loosened the obligations of every human law. Their indefatigable 
 industry, and countless artifices in resisting the progress of the reformed reli- 
 gion, perpetuated the most pernicious errors of popery, and postponed the tri- 
 umph of tolerant and Christian principles. Whence, then, it may well be asked, 
 whence the recent restoration? What long-latent proof has been discovered of 
 the excellence, or even the expedience, of such an institution? The sentence of 
 their abolition was passed by the senates and monarch*, and statesmen, and di- 
 vines, of all religions, and of almost every civilized country in the world. 
 
 Almost every land has been stained and torn by their crimes: and almost eve- 
 ry land bears on its public record the most solemn protests against their exis- 
 tence. The evils of Jesuitism arise not from the violation of the principles of 
 the order; on the contrary, they are the natural and necessary fruits of the sys- 
 tem; they are confined to no age, place, or person; they follow like the tail of 
 the comet, the same disastrous course with the luminary itself; and, in conse- 
 quence, not this or that nation, but humanity, is startled at the re-appearance of 
 this com mon enemy of man." [Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, p. 685. 
 
 Remember, my friends, that one of the cardinal principles of Jesuit- 
 ism is, that " the end justifies the means." This maxim justifies every 
 crime in our criminal code ! if thj cause of the Roman church can be 
 thereby promoted. 
 
 The gentleman asked " Why has this orfler been so often restored, 
 if it be not good I" I answer, For the same reason that the Inquisi- 
 tion has been restored, and by the same persons too. Whenever the 
 power of the papacy and the state of the community would tolerate it, 
 it has been revived ; and I presume so long as the papacy lives, it 
 will, being infallible, pursue the same course. Does the restoration 
 of the Inquisition prove it to be good 1 
 
 The gentleman would trace to the hatred of Christianity, the oppo- 
 sition of Voltaire and other sceptics in France, to the order of the Je- 
 suits. This is a non causa. The infidels hated the Jesuits, not for 
 Christ's sake, for no one could hate them on that account : but because 
 they supported the political despotism of this pretended vicar of Rome. 
 This was the true reason of that mortal hatred of the Jesuits by all 
 the republicanism of France, and throughout the world. 
 
 The bishop has confessed that he would have the legislative, judi- 
 cial, and executive powers in the same hands, and quotes Deuterono- 
 my xvii. to prove that it is right, even now. What an admirer of 
 American institutions ! Certainly, he has forgotten himself: and the 
 Jewish institution too! It was a theocracy. God himself was law- 
 giver the priests kept and expounded the law the judges and kings 
 executed it. Where, then, were all these powers accumulated in one 
 and the same dynasty ! It is a mistake of the case, as well as of the 
 nature of the government. The very elements of a just and pure gov- 
 ernment will be found in separating these powers; the very essence 
 of a despotism in uniting them in one and the same person. 
 
 The gentleman, I am glad to observe, understands my discovery of 
 the elements of all tyranny in the supreme judge of controversy, or, 
 councils of the Roman church. But he fails in vindicating it. The 
 council is "the church representative,-" consequently, it is the church 
 judging for herself against the heretics or reformers. She is always 
 a party in the case of which she is judge. Most controversies are on 
 points affecting the priesthood. All disputes, more or less affect the 
 standing or temporal interest of the clergy. Now the councils are
 
 CATHOLIC RELIGION. 303 
 
 composed only of clergy. Is it not then the clergy judging in their 
 own case ? And such is the model of a Roman Catholic Republic ! 
 
 A word or two more on transubstantiation. Will the bishop please 
 inform us wJiether (he bread and wine are transubstantiated into the 
 natural body of Christ, or into his glorified body? If into the natural 
 body, in which he said "M/.s is my body " " this is my Hood" of what 
 profit to eat it ? and how dare Christians to eat it, according to the de- 
 crees of the apostles'? and if it be his glorified body, how can there be 
 flesh and blood in it 1 for flesh and blood cannot inherit the. kingdom 
 of heaven ! 
 
 The allusions of my opponent to the Episcopalians and Unitarians 
 in vindication of his gross interpretations of the eucharistal words, is 
 unworthy of a serious reply. Besides, their opinions are not the sub 
 ject of controversy here. It is transubstantiation, and not consubstan- 
 tiation, or any other theory of the presence of the Lord in this ordi- 
 nance, which I assert, and which he is bound to defend, if he can. 
 The Episcopalians would abhor the comments and interpretations 
 which the bishop dares append to their words. He treats them as he 
 treated Luther ! 
 
 One of the most unfortunate references I recollect to have heard in 
 debate, was that of the bishop to the unbelief of Thomas. The Sa- 
 vior's answer to Thomas fully expresses his sophistry on transubstan- 
 tiation : for Jesus said, " reaeh hither thy finger," "handle me'' 
 " thrust thy hand into my side." So we reason : " Take this loaf into 
 your hands, feel it, taste it, smell it,; Is it flesh, or is it bread 1 Test 
 it by your senses. Believe not, contrary to your senses. Jesus made 
 his appeal to the senses. So do we. Why has my opponent quoted 
 this passage ? Is he turning Protestant ? 
 
 I wish the Roman Catholics would hear Paul in this case. He has 
 positively said, that it is bread that is eaten in the act of celebrating 
 the supper. "As often," says he, " as you eat this bread, and drink 
 this cup, you do show forth the Lord's death till he come." To "drink 
 a cup" is certainly a figure as much as " this is my body;" and goes 
 to show that words are not to be taken literally in this passage. If 
 then, Jesus called it the fruit of the vine, after consecration, and Paul, 
 the bread and the cup, in the very act of communicating, I ask, What 
 foundation is there for the miracle of the mass ? ! 
 
 My learned opponent tells you a story about a mouse. It may, in- 
 deed, have a good argument in it ; but I do not use such arguments, 
 on so grave a subject. He did it, he said, to anticipate me. He did 
 not however anticipate me : for I had no intention of telling such a 
 story, or any other of the same type. I think it would be more appo- 
 site for him to show how a person can believe against his five senses, 
 that a priest can, by a few words create the body, soul and divinity of 
 he Son of God out of a little "paste " than to relate such mouse 
 stories, how true soever they ma\ be. Surely, before they kneel 
 down and adore a wafer, they ought to be fully assured that the priest 
 nas converted it into a divinity ! 
 
 I must return to my last proposition. This concerns him and his 
 narty more, than any other one of the seven. We will soon be able 
 10 judge, whether he is determined to evade or canvass it. I would 
 emphatically tell him, the community expect him to discuss ihis sub- 
 ject above all others. They are much excited and interested on this
 
 304 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 point. Many who have no antipathy against Roman Cathclios have 
 some fears of them I belong to that class. I have no antipathy : bu? 
 I have my fears. I do honestly think, (and I avow it here, that 1 may 
 give my ingenious opponent an opportunity to remote the impression 
 if he can.) I say, I do sincerely believe and think, that Roman Cath- 
 olicism, in any country is detrimental to its interests and prosperity : 
 and in a republic, directly and positively tending every moment to its 
 subversion. Such is my conviction. I avow, it, that if possible, it 
 may be removed. I always distinguish between a system and those 
 who profess it, between agreed, and the. people. And therefore I 
 war against principles and not men. I am not singular in these senti- 
 ments. They are possessed by a large portion of the most intelligent 
 of this community. I have, indeed, been asked, perhaps, a hundred 
 times, since October last, in different places, and by different persons, 
 of all religious parties and by persons of no sect: "Are you not afraid 
 to meet the Catholics in debate 1" Afraid of what? "Of your life 
 of being killed," was the reply. " Are you not afraid tlvat they will 
 lay violent hands on you ?" No; was my answer. I met the infidel 
 Owen and feared nothing; and certainly I have no more to fear from 
 "the Mother and Mistress of all Christians" than from infidels ! 
 
 It gives me pleasure to say, that there are some Roman Catholics. 
 to whom I could trust my life and my all as confidently, as to any 
 Protestant. To such men, as Fenelon, as Paschal, as Rollin, as Du 
 Pin, as St. Pierre, as Thomas a Kempts, I could commit my life, as 
 freely and as cheerfully as to any Protestants. In such cases the man 
 rises above the system. I state this fact to interest my opponent in 
 discussing my seventh proposition; and to assure him that it will give 
 me pleasure, and I have no doubt the whole community, to learn that 
 all such fears are perfectly groundless; and to see that he is able sa- 
 tisfactorily to remove them. Let the public mind be disabused: for 
 as present advised, Protestants generally think that civil- liberty and 
 the papacy are wholly incompatible with each other: and that the in- 
 troduction of large numbers of Roman Catholics into this community, 
 would inevitably subvert this government ; and place us under a spi- 
 ritual and political despotism, intolerant and cruel as those, which the 
 see of Rome has established in every country on earth, where she has 
 obtained a majority. 
 
 Let the gentleman, then, turn his attention to this subject, and im- 
 prove the opportunity in wiping from his escutcheons those foul stains 
 that have associated with the name Roman Catholic every thing that 
 is intolerant, inhuman and tyrannical. Let him show us here in what 
 manner the decrees of councils, the bulls of popes, the oaths of the 
 clergy, and the infallibility of the church are to be disposed of, if w 
 could promise ourselves that the prevalence of his party in this coun- 
 try would not be an end of all those free and equitable institutions, 
 which have made these United States the wonder and the admiration 
 of the world. 
 
 Is it of the essence of this superstition to root out and destroy every 
 antagonist principle, tenet, and party ; or is it merely accidental, that 
 Rome can endure no living rival ? Has not the Roman see even when 
 a foreign empire always sought to he above all gods or magistrates : 
 and does it not now bind every bishop on earth under the most hea^t 
 searching and conscience binding oaths and anathemas, to defend and
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. t 305 
 
 keep the Roman papacy, and the royalties of St. Peter, saving his own 
 order against .all men 1 ? Is not my opponent thus sworn? Has he 
 not bound himself as he shall answer to God in the great day, by the 
 most solemn imprecations to preserve, defend, increase and advance the 
 authority of his lord the pope, and his successors canonically coming 
 in ? He has so sworn just as certainly, as he has sworn " to persecute 
 and oppose all heretics and schismatics," as we read from an oath 
 which he has not yet had the courage to deny. It is, indeed, a part 
 of the same oath. 
 
 It will require the ingenuity of a Jesuit to show how these duties to 
 the pope can consist with the obligations of the oath of naturalization, 
 or the duties which a citizen of this country owes to its government. 
 But before I comment further on the oath, we will hear it to the end : 
 
 " I will come to a council when 1 am called, unless I be hindered by a cano- 
 nical impt'iliment. I will by myself in person visit the threshold of the apostles 
 every tliree years; and give an account to our Lord and his aforesaid successors 
 
 And if I be detained 'by a lawful impediment I will perform all things aforesaid 
 by a certain messenger hereto specially empowered, a member of n>y chapter, 
 or some other ecclesiastical dignity, or else having a parsonage; or in default 
 of these, by a priest of the diocese; or in default of one of the clergy, [of the 
 diocese] by some other secular or regular priest of approved integrity and re- 
 ligion, fully instructed in all things above mentioned. And such impediment 
 I will make out by lawful proofs to be transmitted by the aforesaid messenger to 
 the cardinal proponent of the holy Roman church in the congregation of the 
 sacred council. The possessions belonging to ray table, I will neither sell, nor 
 give away, nor mortgage, nor grant anew in fee, nor any wise alienate, no, not 
 even with the consent of the chapter of my church, without consulting the Ro- 
 man Pontiff. And if 1 shall make any alienation, I will thereby incur the penal- 
 ties contained in a certain constitution put forth about this matter. So help me 
 God and these holy Gospels of God." Pontif. Rom. Antwerp. Anno 1626 
 pp. 59, 86. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock^ P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCEI/L rises 
 
 Mr. Campbell begs me to follow him. I am following him ; but 
 the truth is that my learned friend runs away so fast from his own 
 reason, that it is not surprising if he gets ahead of mine. My friends, 
 I promise to satisfy you on the vital question of civil liberty. He 
 will not be able to draw me off from my argument. He is a foreign- 
 er, an Irishman, as well as I, and I am sorry to see, that while he 
 breathes, he would infect, the atmosphere of freedom. We are both 
 indebted to America for the liberty which we enjoy, which he as a dis- 
 senter, and I, as a Catholic, would not have enjoyed under the Pro~ 
 testant Government of Great Britain, in our native land. For myself, 
 I am pn adopted American citizen, having renounced, by oath, all for- 
 eign allegiance. It is my only desire to live and act as an American 
 freeman should, and escape the charge which rests on foreigners like 
 my worthy opponent, and those Scotch fanatics in New York, who 
 volunteer to teach Americans how to understand their own consti- 
 tution. These, and their like, are the men who cause all the excite- 
 ment about religion. They, and not the Catholics, are the real mis- 
 chief makers. This, I say, more in sorrow than in anger, and exclu- 
 sively with the view of doing justice to the truth. Let us appreciate 
 the blessings we here enjoy, and not withhold, or mar them. We 
 have not here imbibed the spirit of controversy, which may be called 
 2 A 2 20
 
 306 , DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the spirit of the world, but the spirit of charity which is the spirit 
 of God. The former is predicated for another meridian. 
 
 I will now finish my arguments on the real presence. St. Paul, 
 speaking of the dispositions with which the Eucharist was to be re- 
 ceived, seals the proof deduced from the words of the institution and 
 the promise. His words are these : " When you come therefore to- 
 gether into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord's supper." The 
 apostle condemns their partaking of this, as of ordinary food. " What," 
 says he, " have you not houses to eat and to drink in ? or despise ye 
 the church of God ; and put them to shame that have not ? What 
 shall I say to you ? Do I praise you 1 In this I praise you not. For 
 I have received of the Lord, that which also, I delivered unto you, 
 that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took 
 bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said : ' Take ye and eat ; this 
 is my body which shall be delivered for you ; this do for a commemo- 
 ration of me.' In like, manner, also, the chalice, after he had supped, 
 saying : ' This chalice is the New Testament in rny blood ; this do 
 ye as often as you shall drink it, for the commemoration of me.' For 
 as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall 
 shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever 
 shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall 
 be guilty of the body, and blood of the Lord. But let a man prove 
 himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that chalice. 
 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinkcth judg- 
 ment unto himself, not discerning the body of the Lord." 1st. Ep. 
 Cor. ch. xi. Here the most virtuous and pious dispositions under 
 the dread penalty, of receiving the body and blood of the Lord un- 
 worthily, and thus incorporating, and making our condemnation a 
 portion of our flesh and blood and being, are required of the Catholic 
 communicant, and yet my worthy opponent quotes this sanctifying 
 doctrine among the immoralities of the Catholic church ! 
 
 But my friend objects to transubstantiation. Then let him differ 
 from Luther and the Episcopalians, for the real presence, without 
 transubstantiation, which they teach, is a greater difficulty. If the 
 bible be our guide, let us adhere to it. What was the first miracle 
 which our Savior wrought? Was it not the changing of water into 
 wine ] transubstantiation T My friend says that he has never read on 
 this subject, nor studied it. I do not wonder that he says it is so ab- 
 surd, if he never gave it serious consideration. (MR. CAMPBELL here ex- 
 plained that he had said that he had never read a controversial treatise 
 on the subject, but affirmed that he had reflected on it, and studied it.) 
 Not only the first miracle, but every thing in nature confirms the doc- 
 trine. The bread and meat that my friend ate, a week ago. is. this 
 day, flesh and blood and bone of his body. So of trees, the juices 
 they draw from the soil, are converted into branches and verdure. Na- 
 ture, in fact, is replete with evidences illustrative of the possibility 
 cf transubstantiation. If you wish for a human testimony, interro- 
 gate Christian antiquity. St. Ignatius, the disciple of the apostles, 
 in his Epistle to the church of Smyrna, speaking of heretics, says, 
 "They do not admit of Eucharists and oblations, because they do 
 not believe the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior, Jesus Christ, 
 who suffered for our sins." 
 
 Origen says ; " Manna was formerly given, as a figure ; but now
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 307 
 
 the flesh and blood of the Son of God are specifically given, and are 
 real food." 
 
 St. Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem, says: 
 
 " Since Christ himself urtirms thus of the bread, This is my body; who is *o 
 daring- as to doubt of it? and since he affirms, this is my blood; who will deny- 
 that it is his blood? At Cana in Galilee, he, by an act of his will, turned water into 
 wine, which resembles blood, and is he then not to be credited when he changes 
 wine into blood? Therefore, full of certainty, let us receive the body and blood 
 of Christ; for under the form of bread, is given to thee his body, and under 
 the form of wine, his blood." 
 
 St. Ambrose thus argues with his spiritual children : 
 
 "You will say, why do you tell me that I receive the body of Christ, 
 when I see quite another thing-? We have this point therefore to prove. How 
 many examples do we produce to show you, that this is not what nature made it; 
 but what the benediction has consecrated it; and that the benediction is of greater 
 force than nature, because by the benediction, nature itself is changed ! Moses cast 
 his rod upon the ground, and it became a serpent; he caught hold of the serpent's 
 tail, and it recovered the nature of a rod. The rivers of Egypt, 4c. Thou hast 
 read of the creation of the world : If Christ, by his word, was able to make some- 
 thing out of nothing, shall he not be thought able to change one thinginto another." 
 
 My friend spoke of the period at which this doctrine was introduced, 
 and quoted Scotus. I venture my life, that he does not know who 
 Scotus was, or when he lived. I ask my friend to tell me, who is this 
 Scotus, to whom he referred. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. I presume he was a father of the church. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. I do not speak disrespectfully of my friend, but 
 I do not like this index learning ; 
 
 " Which turns no student pale, 
 Yet holds the eel of science by the tail." 
 
 There were two individuals whom he h^s confounded. The fust, 
 called Scotus Evigena, lived in the ninth century, and wrote a treatise 
 against the real presence, which was condemned in many councils. 
 The second flourished in the fourteenth century, and taught theology 
 in Oxford and Paris. Or, instead of either of the foregoing, does the 
 gentleman quote Soto, the theologian, sent by Charles V. of Germany, 
 to the council of Trent? Of which of them does the gentleman 
 speak 1 I pause for a reply. (Pauses.) 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. You may proceed. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. I will proceed to settle this point. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. That is not the question before us. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. Well, then, my friends, I will take up the sub- 
 ject of indulgences, against which my friend had directed his batteries. 
 An indulgence is no license to commit sin. The Catholic church ana- 
 thematizes the doctrine that any man, or set of men, can grant a license 
 to commit sin. She teaches that an indulgence is nothing more nor 
 less than a remission of the temporal punishment, which often remains 
 attached to sin, after the eternal guilt has been forgiven to the sinner, 
 on his sincere repentance. Before proving this doctrine both scriptural 
 and rational, and that the church is guilty of encouraging no immora- 
 lity by the power which she exercises in the granting of indulgences, I 
 must shew that the charge of immorality presses heavily on my oppo- 
 nent's doctrine, and not on mine, for he teaches that the distinction be- 
 tween greater and lesser sins is not found in scripture. He has advo- 
 cated the monstrous, and insupportable doctrine, that the child who 
 tells an untruth, to save itself from punishment, is as guilty as the 
 parricide who cuts his father's throat! and accuses Catholics of being
 
 308 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 immoral, because they do not subscribe to such a doctrine as this! 
 What is the effect of this doctrine, that all sins are equal 1 Why, it 
 is this : that the man who has committed the slightest sin, is as guilty 
 in the sight of God, and as deserving of being damned, as if his sins 
 were ever so enormous. " If this be my lot," is his spontaneous rea- 
 soning, " I see no cause why my passions should not have all the ad 
 vantage of this doctrine. I will, therefore, continue to sin. No na- 
 tural law, no divine legislation, no civil convention, or moral restraint, 
 shall debar me of my. pleasures." This is revolting; it is horrible 
 Scripture, reason, and Catholicism, anathematize it. I now resume 
 he proof of my position, touching indulgences, and maintain that aftei 
 the eternal guilt is remitted, a temporal pain is often inflicted for the 
 satisfaction of divine justice. Thus, when Adam and Eve had sinned 
 in paradise, when they had incurred the Divine displeasure, and heard 
 the dread sentence pronounced against them and their posterity, even 
 in his wrath the Almighty remembered mercy. They were driven 
 from Eden, but not into hell. In other words, the eternal guilt of their 
 sin was forgiven, but the temporal punishment still remained to be 
 endured. (There is some doubt whether Eve partakes of her consort's 
 happiness in heaven, or not; but Adam, we are assured by scripture, 
 is in heaven.) " In the sweat of thy brow shall thou eat thy bread," 
 said the Lord, " the earth shall be accursed in thy toil, briars and 
 thorns," &c. We are bearing a part of their punishment. We feel 
 the effects of this primeval prevarication. The whole earth is a hospi 
 tal. Poverty, crime, disease, war, pestilence, and famine; physical 
 moral, and mental afflictions, and evils; all the quarreling; all the 
 differences of opinion-; this very controversy ; all this is a part of 
 the temporal punishment of our first parents' transgression. This 
 shews the difference between the temporal and eternal punishment of 
 sin. Behold another illustration. David takes Uriah's wife he orders 
 Uriah into the front of the battle that he might be killed. The Al 
 mighty, incensed at his double crime, sends his prophet to rebuke him, 
 and David trembles before his wrath. God is moved, and pardons 
 him. He remits the eternal guilt of his sin, but not its temporal punish- 
 ment. "The child that is born for thee shall die." We know all the 
 evils that followed ; Absalom, &c. The doctrine of indulgences is this : 
 
 WHEN A HUMAN BKING DOES EVERY THING IN HIS POWER TO ATONE FO* 
 
 SIN, God has left a power in the church, to remit a part or the entire o 
 the temporal punishment due to it. It is always understood, that u. 
 matter what the church does, the indulgence is of no effect, if the ;p 
 pentance be not sincere. I will give you a striking example froii 
 scripture. It is the case where St. Paul absolved the incestuous ma 
 of Corinth, 2d Cor. ii. 6, 8, who had been guilty, even in the early ag 
 of the church, of a crime which struck the hearts of all the church 
 with dismay. St. Paul wrote to Corinth and said, when he heard that 
 the man was overwhelmed with contrition, and shunned by all the 
 people, "To him that is such a one this rebuke is sufficient, that is 
 given by many. And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also 
 For what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes 
 have I done it IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST." One text is worth twenty 
 arguments. The obedience rendered to St. Paul on this occasion, by 
 the church of Corinth, my friend denounces. But the early Christiana 
 were more humble, and Paul was guilty of no assumption in demand
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION 309 
 
 ing it. "In the person of Christ," mark those words that he, in 
 the person of Christ, forgave what 1 not the eternal guilt of the in- 
 cestuous man God alone could forgive that ; hut the temporal punish- 
 ment ; to restore him to the privileges of the church and of Christian 
 society. Nothing is more frequent in the ecclesiastical history of the 
 early ages, than the narrative of the acts of the martyrs ; and this, 
 among others, of their being visited in prison, or met in their way to 
 execution, by persons condemned to perform public penances, accord- 
 ing to the discipline of the church in those days, and supplicated fora 
 ticket, or other intimation of intercession in their behalf, with the pas- 
 tors of the church, that the term of these penances might be abridged, 
 in consideration of the martyr's generous sacrifices. One drop of 
 Christ's precious blood was sufficient to ransom a thousand worlds. 
 He left this treasure and its keys to the church, saying, "Whatever 
 you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed in heaven," &c. But I will 
 give you other examples to illustrate the doctrine of indulgences. The 
 English church grants indulgences. Luther granted them, of an extra- 
 ordinary kind too. Our government grants indulgences. An insolvent 
 debtor hangs his head with shame ; there is nothing he would not do 
 to pay his debts. The law takes him to jail he gives a schedule of 
 his property, and upon surrendering all he possesses in the world, upon 
 oath, he is allowed to take the benefit of the act. This is what the 
 church does to sinners, who sincerely repent and do all they can, first, 
 to pay the spiritual debts that stand against them. Shew me that there 
 is anything wrong in the insolvent laws, and then you may find fault 
 with the practice of the church. As for the pope, or bishop, giving a 
 license to sin, I will repeat as often as it is repeated, that the Catholic 
 church reprobates it. If all the bishops in the world, and the pope 
 were to sign such a license, the sinner would not be forgiven, if he re- 
 mained in sin. God himself does not pardon sin upon these terms. 
 But I cannot consent that the gentleman should force down om throats 
 doctrines that we abominate. [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 Realty, my friends, it would seem as if I ought to go back some 
 two or three days to help my opponent forward to the subject now 
 before us. But I will not. There is no person in this house, with 
 the exception of my ingenious opponent, who believes that I repre- 
 sent all sins as equal as respects man. Though as respects the di- 
 vine law, as already observed, they are equally transgressions of it. 
 Hence, as James the apostle avers : " He that offends in one point" 
 though he should keep every other, " is guilty of all"! The gentle- 
 man, then, may defend his " white lies," and other violations of God's 
 law, as he pleases ; but God will show the universe that, as respects 
 his character, as Lawgiver and King, the least infraction, as respects 
 man,, is the highest insult that can be rendered to the Lawgiver. 
 Eve's " little sin," as the infidels call it, is the best exposition of the 
 logic of Roman theology. Though it differs much in the estimation 
 of man from the treachery of Judas : yet, does not every page and 
 letter in man's sad history, bear witness, that even the pulling off an 
 apple against tlio law of God, is an offence that justifies the Gover- 
 nor of the Universe far having suffered the whole creation on our
 
 310 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 planet to groan and travail together in pain and death for .housands of 
 years. 
 
 To the unpropitious destiny of my opponent I attribute all his re- 
 marks on my saying that I read no tracts in confutation of transub- 
 stantiation. Does that prove that I cannot refute or that I have not 
 refuted his defence of it. The bible alone qualifies me to expose all 
 his sophistry, or that of any man, on that grossest and most un- 
 feasible of all the impostures that have, in any age or nation, been 
 obtruded on mankind. 
 
 The gentleman has spoken of various natural tran substantiations 
 Astonishing! Who ever thought any thing else, but that all organi- 
 zed bodies, all earthly substances, nay, indeed, that all matter was 
 susceptible of real changes, and new combinations and transubstanti- 
 ations ? B"t where is the analogy ? They are real and apparent, 
 visible and sensible transubstantiations. But the universe affords 
 no transubstantiation, similar to that for which the Bishop contends 
 Nothing transubstantiated, and yet the same to all our sense and 
 reason. 
 
 But in the name of reason itself, what distress or pressure of mis- 
 fortune has induced this learned gentleman to appeal to the miracle 
 in Cana of Galilee to the transubstantiation of water into \vine 1 That 
 was really a transubstantiation. It did not look like water taste 
 like water, smell like w r ater, nor operate like water. It was real wine, 
 in color, taste, smell, and all its sensible properties. What a refuta- 
 tion has the gentleman found in his own illustration ! ! 
 
 The Bishop's remarks upon " eating the word," &c. &c., are equal- 
 ly unhappy, and extravagant. He has not done himself any honor on 
 this occasion. Jesus said, " it is my meat and my drink to do the 
 will of him that sent me." Truth is an aliment of the soul, and do- 
 ing the will of heaven is a feast to every Christian. But can the soul 
 feast on literal flesh and blood ] ! 'Tis an outrage on common sense ! 
 
 I was glad to hear him even quote the words, " Judge you what I 
 say :" any appeal to reason, any w r ord favorable to examination, com- 
 ing from that quarter, falls on my ear like the sound of the dulci- 
 mer. Jesus says, " Why do you not of yourselves judge what is 
 right;" and Paul says, " Judge what I say;" and John commands, 
 " Believe not every spirit ; but try the spirits, for many false prophets 
 are gone forth into the world." Now all these commands are address- 
 ed to the common mass of Christians. Well, then, says Paul, " The 
 loaf for which we give thanks, is it not the communion of the body ot 
 Christ," &c. ; '.' and the cup which we bless, is it not the communion 
 of the blood ?" &c. : and the whole is called the Lord's table, the 
 Lord's supper an institution in semembrance of one that is absent, 
 " TILL HE COME :" not the eating of one present, but the memorial 
 of one absent. " You then," says Paul, " do show forth the Lord's 
 death /*'// he come." 
 
 .* The Corinthian abuses show, that they had no notion of a wafer 
 and no wine of a mass, a transubstantiation. Paul reproved them 
 for their irregularities, and said this was not to eat the Lord's supper, 
 (not to partake of a mass) : for some had eaten and even drunk to excess. 
 The rich had brought a large suppe^yand put the poor to shame, who 
 had no supper to bring. These were abuses which could never have 
 arisen out of the doctrine of transubstantiation. In one word, there 
 was as much transubstantiation in the passover, because it is called the
 
 EOMAN CATHOLJC RELIGION. bll 
 
 " Lord's passover," as there is in the institution of the supper, be- 
 cause it is called the " Lord's body :" and he that cannot thus " dis- 
 cern the Lord's body," in this institution, is not to be reasoned with 
 on any religious question. 
 
 Next comes the gentleman's splendid episode on the identification 
 of the unfortunate Scotus, whose peculiar age and country I am no 
 more bound to remember, or to tell here, than I am to relate the per- 
 sonal or family history of every individual I quote. How many au- 
 thors are daily quoted, whose age and country, not one in a hundred, 
 may be able to relate with historic accuracy ! Are those who cite Co- 
 pernicus, Zoroaster, Euclid, or even Newton, obliged to tell when or 
 where they were born, lived and died ? It is, however, on the au- 
 thority of Bellarmine I quoted this celebrated Roman Catholic au- 
 thor, and ought I not, on such an endorsement, to regard Scotus as of 
 high authority in the Roman church ? 
 
 Time is becoming very precious, and as I have only two speeches 
 nfter to-day, I shall not go farther into the details of the proposition, 
 now under discussion, especially as I have not been met by the Bish- 
 op on the two grand errors which nourish and sustain the baseless 
 dream of purgatory and the sacraments of penance, auricular confes- 
 sion, the mass, &c. &c. 
 
 Indulgence is not identical with absolution, as my opponent seems 
 to argue. Indulgence, as the term imports, is a licence to sin : abso- 
 lution is the forgiveness of sin. An indulgence gives licence to sin, 
 because it promises the person prospectively an exemption from the 
 punishment ; and even to remain, in full force, in the moment of 
 death ! 
 
 My seventh proposition says : 
 
 "The Roman Catholic religion, if infallible and insusceptible of reformation 
 as alleged, is essentially anti-American, being opposed to the genius of all free 
 institutions, and positively subversive of them, opposing the general reading of 
 the scriptures, and the diffusion of useful knowledge among the whole commu- 
 nity, so essential to liberty and the permanency of good government." 
 
 "Essentially anti-American." This I have so far proved, as refer- 
 ence has already been made to those doctrines, which make the Roman 
 Catholic population abject slaves to their priests, bishops, and popes- 
 to that hierarchy, which has always opposed freedom of thought, of 
 speech, and of action, whether in literature, politics, or religion. Such 
 are the laws of mind such the intellectual and moral constitution of 
 man, that if in religion the mind be enslaved to any superstition, espe- 
 cially in youth, it rarely or ever can be emancipated and invigorated. 
 The benumbing and paralizing influence of Romanism is such, as to 
 disqualify a person for the relish and enjoyment of political liberty. 
 For in all history, civil liberty follows in the wake of religious liberty ; 
 insomuch, that it is almost an oracle of philosophy, that religious liberty 
 is the cause, and political liberty an effect of that cause, without 
 which it never has been found. Compare not Protestant America with 
 the republics of Greece or Rome; for there is scarcely any point of 
 coincidence in this respect. There never was on earth so free and so 
 equitable an institution as the Protestant institutions of these United 
 States. 
 
 \Vo shall now exemplify the spirit and tendency of Romanism, taken 
 from the five hundred years in which it was most triumphant. 
 
 As a specimen of that abject slavery of Romanists to their superiors,
 
 312 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and of the humility of the popes, of which my friend has so ofteh 
 spoken, take the following example. 
 
 " According to this doctrine then current at Rome, in the last Lateran great 
 synod, under the Pope's nose, and in his ear, one bishop styled him Prince of 
 the world; another orator called him King of kings, and Monarch of the earth; 
 another great prelate said of him, that he had all power above all powers, 
 both of heaven and earth. And the same roused up Pope Leo X. in these hrave 
 terms: "Snatch up therefore the two-edged sword of divine power, committed to 
 thee; and enjoin, command, and charge, that an universal peace and alliance be 
 made among Christians for at least ten years; and to that bind kings in fetters 
 of the great king, and constrain nobles by the iron manacles of censures: for 
 to thee is given all power in heaven and in earth." 
 
 "This is (he doctrine which Barronius, with a Roman confidence, doth so often 
 assert and drive forward, saying, "that there can be no doubt of it, but that the 
 civil principality is subject to the sacerdotal: and that God hath made the poli- 
 tical government subject to the dominion of the spiritual church." Epis. Patrac. 
 Sess. 10, p. 133. Barronius, Annals, 57. 23. 
 
 It is Barronius, and not Du Pin, says, " that God has made the poli- 
 tical government subject to the spiritual.'''' This is the true doctrine of 
 popery. But we shall hear another great cardinal. 
 
 Again Bcllarmine gays; " By reason of the spiritual power, the pope, at least 
 indirectly, hath a supreme power even in temporal matters." 
 
 Concerning which, Dr. Barrow rightly observes, "If the pope may 
 strike princes, it matters not much whether it be by a downright blow 
 or slantingly." 
 
 We shall now very hastily run back from A. D. 1585 to 730, and 
 give a few specimens of the true spirit, and tone, and action, of this 
 institution, during its ascendency. 
 
 A. D. 1585. "The bull of Pope Sixtus V. against the tivo sons of icrath, 
 Henry, King of Navarre, and the Prince of Conde, beginneth thus: 'The au- 
 thority given to St. Peter and his successors, bv the immense power of the eter- 
 nal king, excels all the powers of earthly kifigs and pririces. It passes uncon- 
 trollable sentence upon them all and if it find any of them resisting God's or- 
 dinance, it takes more severe vei.geance of them, casting them down from their 
 thrones, though never so puissant, and tumbling them down to the lowest parts 
 of the earth, as the ministers of aspiring Lucifer.' And then he proceeds to 
 thunder against them, ' We deprive them and their posterity forever of their 
 dominions, and kingdoms;' and accordingly he depriveth those princes of their 
 kingdoms and dominions, absolveth their subjects from their oaths of allegiance, 
 jjid forbiddeth them to pay any obedience to them. 'By the authority of these 
 
 E resents, we do absolve and set free all persons, as well jointly as severally, 
 om any such oath, and from all duty whatsoever in regard of dominion, fealty 
 .and obedience, and do charge and forbid all and even- of them that they do not 
 dare to obey them, or any of their admonitions, laws, and commands." Bulla 
 Sixti V. Contra Henr. Navarre, R. &c. 
 
 Is this the genius of our government 1 Are these the doctrines of 
 the United States ? Here you have kings hurled from their thrones 
 nd subjects released from their allegiance, without ceremony, by the 
 vicars of Christ and the head of the church! Who is. this that sets 
 aside oaths, and religious obligations, in the name of the Lord? 
 "Why," says the modern Roman Catholic, "do you bring up these 
 old things ?" Not so very old ! But will the bishop mention the 
 council that ever repudiated this doctrine? 
 
 The bishop says, ' they have been repudiated.' I thank him for 
 conceding that,they once existed ! But now for the proof of their re- 
 pudiation. Nothing is infallible but a general council ; and what gene- 
 ral council has set since the days of pope Sixtus V. ? ! ! The council 
 of Trent convened Dec. 13, 1545, and all its decrees were confirmed 
 by the pope Jan. 26, 1564; consequently, the bull of pope Sixtus V
 
 HOMAN CATHOLIC HRLIGIOX. 313 
 
 is the bull of the Reformed Infallible Roman church nfter the councL 
 of Trent! ! If it were orthodox then, it is orthodox now. 
 
 We shall now hear pope Pius V. (almost canonized,) excemmuni- 
 cate the queen of England, and for aught I know, we Protestants were 
 all excommunicated at the same time. 
 
 A. D. 1570. " He that reigneth on high, to whom is given all power in heaven 
 and in earth, hath committed the one holy, Catholic and Apostolic church, out 
 of which there is no salvation, to one alone on earth, namely, to Peter, prince 
 of the apostles, and to the Roman pontiff, successor of Peter, to be governed 
 with a plenitude of power; this one he hath constituted prince ovei all nations 
 and all kingdoms, tnat he might pluck up, destroy, dissipate, ruinate, plant, 
 and build." And in the same bull he declares, that ' he thereby deprives the 
 <]ueen of her pretended right to the kingdom, and of all dominion, dignity, and 
 privilege whatsoever; and absolves all the nobles, subjects, and people of the 
 kingdom, and whoever else hare sworn to her, from their oath and all duty 
 whatsoever, in regard of dominion, fidelity and obedience." [Camp. Hist. 
 anno. 1570. 
 
 That this was not peculiar to one individual, but of the spirit of the 
 system, appears from the following facts : 
 
 Pope Clement VI. did pretend to depose the Emperor Lewis IV. 
 
 Pope Clement V. in the great synod of Vienna, declared the emperor subject 
 to him, or standing obliged to him by a proper oath of fealty. CClem. lib. 
 ii. tit. 9. 
 
 Pope Boniface VIII. hath a decree extant in the canon law running thus : 
 * We declare, say, define, pronounce it to be of necessity to salvation, for every 
 human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff." 
 
 A. D. 1294. "For one sword, saith he, must be under another, and the tem- 
 poral authority must be subject to the spiritual power: whence, if the earthl" 
 power doth go astray, it must be judged by the spiritual power." Ibid. 
 
 This definition says Dr. Barrow, at the foot of whose pages we have the Latic 
 original of all these decrees, might pass for rant of that boisterous pope (a mac 
 above measure, ambitious and arrogant) vented in his passion against king Philip 
 of France, if it had not the advantage (of a greater than which no papal decree 
 is capable) of being expressly confirmed by one of their general councils; for 
 'We (saith Pope Leo X. in his bull read and passed in the Lateran council) do 
 renew and approve that holy constitution, with approbation of the present holy 
 council.' Accordingly Mech Cauns saith, that ' the Lateran council did renew 
 and approve that extravagant (indeed extravagant) constitution:' and Barro- 
 nius saith of it, that all do assent to it, so that none dissenteth who do not by 
 discord fall from the church.' 
 
 The truth is, pope Boniface did not invent that proposition, but borrowed it 
 from the school; for Thomas Aquinas in his work against the Greeks, preteiid- 
 eth to show, that it is of necessity to salvation to be subject to the Roman 
 Pontiff"." 
 
 The appendix to Mart Pol saith of pope Boniface VIIT. ' Regem se Reg^im i 
 Jllundi jfonarcham,unicum in spiritiialibus et temporalibia Domimim promul- 
 gavif;' that he openly declared himself to be the king of kings, monarch of the 
 world, and sole lord and governor both in spirituals and temporals. 
 
 Before him, pope Innocent IV. did hold and exemplify the same notion; de- 
 ^larin^ the emperor Frederick II. his vassal, and denouncing in his general coun- 
 cil of Lvons, a sentence of deprivation against him in these terms: We having, 
 about the foregoing and many other his wicked miscarriages, had before a care 
 ful deliberation with our bretfiren and the holy council, seeing that we. although 
 unworthy, do hold the place of Jesus Christ on earth, and that it was said unto 
 us in the person of St. Peter the apostle, whatever thou shall bind on earth the 
 said prince (who hath rendered himself unworthy of empire and kingdoms, and 
 of all honor and dignity, and who for his iniquities is cast away by God, and that 
 he should not reign or command, being bound by his sins and cast awny, and 
 deprived bv the Lord of all honor and dignity) do show, denounce, and accor- 
 dingly, by sentence, deprive; absolving all who are held bound by oath of alle- 
 giance from such oath forever; by apostolical authority firmly prohibiting-, that 
 i;o man henceforth do obey or regard him as emperor or king; and decreeing, 
 
 2 B 40
 
 314 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 that whoever shall hereafter yield advice, or aid, or favor to hrni as emperor ot 
 king 1 , shall immediately lie under the band of excommunication." 
 
 Before him, pope Innocent the third, (that true wonder of the worM. and 
 changer of the age,) did affirm the pontifical authority so much to exceed the 
 royal power, as the sun doth the moon; "and appHetn to the former that of the 
 prophet Jeremiah: Ecce. constitui te super genlet et regna; see, I have set 
 thee over the nations and over the kingdoms to root out and to pull down, and 
 to destroy and to throw down," &c. 
 
 ARTICLJE xxiii. Pope Pius IV. " I do acknowledge the holy Catholic and 
 apostolic Roman church to be the mother \nd mistress of all churches; and I 
 do promise and swear true obedience to the bishop of Rome, the successor ot 
 Peter, the prince of apostles, and the vicar of Jesus Christ-" [Time expired.} 
 
 Half {Hist 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 BISHOP PURCF u, rises 
 
 My friends, -In Kinmont will read, before I close, what Liguori says or* 
 the subject of Mr. Smith's charges against the Catholic church. It affords 
 rae more pleasure than I can express, to hare an opportunity of proving, by a 
 gentleman, who is not a Catholic, and therefore is a disinterested witness, as far 
 as I and my religion are concerned, that it is all a base slander. 
 
 We have heard a great deal about the pope's deposing kings, ant] absolving 
 subjects from their oaths of allegiance, and so on. In your presence and 
 hearing therefore, I am going to put my friend into one of the most terrible di- 
 lemmas in which he has ever been placed in his life. Now, sir, (addressing 
 Mr. C.) suppose you had been living at the time of the American Revolt* 
 tkm, and were witness to the tyranny, which these colonies had to endure, 
 on the part of his most gracious majesty, king George III. of England : whenr 
 the spirit of a mighty and a numerous people was roused by excess of wrong, 
 to make one vast effort for freedom. Under these circumstances, the Gene- 
 ral in chief, the officers, and the army, the revenue department, and post- 
 masters, all of whom had taken an oath of allegiance to that king, appeal to 
 vou, inquiring, what is to be done ? Asking you if the oath was binding 
 What would be your reply 1 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. If they haxl taken a solemn oath, they should not 
 break it. 
 
 BISHOP PCHCELL. Then was George Washington a perjurer, and all the 
 officers of the army and navy, all the signers of the Declaration of Inde- 
 pendence, and all the subjects of the king of Great Britain were perju- 
 rers ! ! 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. That does not follow from my answer to your question. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. And what would you have persons to do, who had 
 taken the oath of allegiance T 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. " It is better not to vow, than to vow and not pay" as 
 saith the good Book. 
 
 Mr. Campbell rose and said, that for his part, we should always do our 
 duty, and leave consequences to God. When he intends the deliverance of a 
 people, he will eflect for them redemption, as he did for his people out of 
 Egypt. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL, There is no oath of artificial contrivance, stronger than 
 the natural tie between the subject and the king, the governed and the gov- 
 ernment; of whatever form it may be. This is an oath, prior and superi >i- 10 
 all other oaths. But if those of the colonists, who had not taken a conventional 
 oath, or an oath of office, to the king of England, had alone rebelled, what could: 
 they have done! Were not the army and the civil and military officers bound by 
 their oath to resist rebellion 1 How then could human rights have been vin 
 dicated, or human wrongs redressed 1 You have repeatedly said ' vox Jiji uti.
 
 R05IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 315 
 
 root 7W," in the course of this discussion ; in other words that the 
 people's will was the most authentic interpretation of the will of God, 
 that it could give a call to the ministry and give to its choice a right 
 to exercise spiritual powers ! ! Thus, my friends, you see the dilem- 
 ma to which the gentleman has been reduced, and that, while Catho- 
 lics are reproached for their slavish tenets, he himself teaches the 
 whole doctrine of passive obedience, and condemns the very principle 
 of the American Revolution. I leave you to reflect on what the gen- 
 tleman has uttered. Now mark the difference. Had my friend deci- 
 ded my question, as the Father of his country did similar ones, he 
 would have been sustained by the voice and the spirit of the American 
 people and of all denominations thereof, both Catholics and Protest- 
 ants, the contemporaries of a struggle in which, they, who engaged at 
 this side the water, " periled EVERY THING BUT THEIR SACRED HONOR." 
 Whereas, the pope, when he absolved from their oath the English 
 Catholics, whose were the lands, and the houses, the churches and the 
 schools, the hospitals and the glory of England ; whose sufferings ex- 
 ceeded those of the American colonists as much as the Alleghanies do 
 a grain of sand, decided upon far better grounds than did the sages of 
 our Revolution, that passive obedience, under such circumstances, 
 ceased to be a virtue. Yet one word more the absolution was con- 
 sidered by those very Catholics, an exceeding of his powers, and they 
 did not act upon it. His decision was, for them, no article of faith. 
 
 My, friend's next resort, in the way of documentary evidence, is to 
 the Encyclopaedia of religious knowledge, just published. He does 
 not know the author, or the entire title of the work, nor the history of 
 its " getting up." Fessenden is the author of the volume. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. I do know the author, but bishop Purcell does not. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. That is Protestant Jesuitism. He is the pub- 
 lisher. In the New York Churchman of a recent date, there is a story 
 told of a most egregious imposture practised on the patrons of this 
 same volume. The editors professed to give the views of the 
 different sects, in the very words of their respective standards, or ac 
 credited writers, and carefully disguised the fact, that it was to be sub- 
 servient to the interests of one particular sect, the Baptists. They ap- 
 plied to an Episcopal minister, to write an article on Episcopacy, and 
 to patronize the publication. This looked like fair play the poor 
 minister was caught in the snare and signed his name recommending 
 the Encyclopaedia. But lo ! when the work appeared, it was wholly 
 opposed to Episcopalianism ; and this flagrant violation of the faith 
 due to the public from the publishers, elicited a most cutting, but at 
 the same time, most merited castigation from the (Episcopal) Church- 
 man. I hope the article will be read, by every sincere enquirer after 
 truth, that he may be able to appreciate, according to its value, this 
 lew humbug. 
 
 We come back to the Jesuits. It was so notorious to Frederick, 
 the Great, of Prussia, that the Jesuits had been calumniated, and most 
 foully dealt with, that, Protestant, as he was, he received them in his 
 dominions, and placed them in many of his colleges. He told the other 
 kings of Europe that they would soon be sorry for the expulsion of an 
 order that had done so much for literature and science. "The day will 
 come," said he, "when you will be offering me, 300 pounds for a pro- 
 curator, 400, for a professor, 600, for a Rector, and a ptr valorem, foi
 
 S16 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 inferior officers of the Jesuits, but depend upon it, I will fleece you 
 well. I will make you pay dearly for your folly." Frederick was a 
 great judge of human nature, my friends, and he had a keen sense of 
 the superior claims of the Jesuits, for good scholarship, and morality. 
 Hence his kingdom and his palace were given them, with his own 
 confidence. The celebrated preacher, Bourdaloue, was a Jesuit, and 
 who has ever preached a sounder, or a purer morality ? 
 
 My worthy friend said, the Jesuits supported kings and monarchs, 
 and were for crushing the people; and most grossly did he contradict 
 himself, hy stating almost at the same moment, that they were the most 
 formidable enemies of kings, and it was for their opposition to their 
 measures, that kings banished them from several of the kingdoms of 
 Europe. Thus they were, according to his account, the supporters of 
 kings and the enemies of kings ! The infamous Pombal of Portugal 
 began the crusade against the Jesuits. Read his history, and it will be 
 their best vindication or see them among the savages of PARAGUAY ! 
 This word alone reveals to the intelligent reader, a series of wonders 
 performed for God, humanity and virtue, such as the world, perhaps, 
 has never witnessed since the establishment of Christianity. 
 
 Next comes the theocracy of the Jews. And is not Jehovah our 
 king also 1 ? Is he not ever Lord over all ? Do we not acknowledge 
 that there is no power but from him 1 My argument was this. If it 
 be essentially incompatible with liberty, to obey the same ruler in 
 temporal and ecclesiastical things, God could not have established 
 such a government on earth. But, God did establish such an author- 
 ity ; therefore, it is not incompatible with liberty. I do not wish to 
 see it now, unless God should vouchsafe to be as manifestly our king, 
 as he was the king of the Jews ; which is not to happen under the 
 Christian dispensation, as it did under the old law. Christ has de- 
 clared, that his kingdom is not of this world. My worthy opponent 
 said, that the fleshly body and the heavenly body of Christ, were not 
 the same. I ask, then, what became of his fleshly body 1 Did it rot 
 in the ground! I call on him to answer this question. "Thou wilt 
 not leave my soul in hell," says David, "nor wilt thou suffer thy Hnly 
 One to see corruption" (Ps. xv. 10.) It was spiritualized, but still 
 the same body, according to what he said to his disciples, frighted at 
 this apparition, supposing they had seen a spirit : " See my hands and 
 my feel ; it is myself.- handle and see ; fur a spirit hath notfltsh and bones, 
 as you see me to have." (Luke xxiv. 39.) He is "ever living," 
 (Heb. vii. 25,) to make intercession for us, by the eloquent mouths of 
 his wounds, which he exhibits, for us, to his Father in heaven. He 
 gave them, as he had previously done to Thomas, the signs they 
 asked; while he reprehended them, as he did that apostle, "/or s?ow- 
 ness of belief." It was thus that, when the Jews murmured for meat 
 in the wilderness, loathing as light food the manna of heaven, God 
 gave them meat to satiety ; and afterwards, for their unbelief, not only 
 excluded them from the land of promise, but scattered their carcases 
 in the desert. 
 
 My friend told you, how much afraid he was of Catholics. My 
 friends, what a pretty tale he made of it. I was really going to say : 
 " Poor baby, do not be so afraid : do not be such a coward : shake off 
 those old woman's fears about raw head and bloody bones, and be 
 more manly." Washington, though he lived in a less enlightened
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 317 
 
 age than this, was not afraid of Catholics. They stood by his side in 
 the battles for freedom. They never flinched, even at the cannon's 
 mouth. When he drew his sword for this republic, they followed its 
 beaming- to victory or to death. La Fayette, and hosts of others, 
 whose chaplains had said mass for them in the morning before the 
 engagement, bled or conquered in the trenches of liberty. And never 
 was greeting more cordial, or triumph more glorious, than theirs, 
 when they mingled their salutations and tears with those of their 
 American companions in arms, at the surrender of Lord Cornwallis, 
 in York-Town. Witness, too, those noble poles, (Kosciusko! may 
 his shade rise up, and rebuke this spirit of intolerance !) the Irish, the 
 South Americans, all fighting for liberty, all Catholics. Look at 
 William Tell, a Roman Catholic. Go to Venice, for five hundred 
 years a republic, though surrounded by absolute governments. Look 
 at the little republic of San Marino, of which John Adams has related 
 the remarkable history. There is not such a people for liberty, on the 
 globe, as the Roman Catholics. Look nearer home, at Maryland, 
 where the CATHOLICS WERE THE FIRST THAT PROCLAIMED FREEDOM OF 
 
 CONSCIENCE IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE ! ! LET THIS BE OUR ANSWER 
 TO A THOUSAND SLANDERS. 
 
 I come now to the oath of bishops. I have taken the oath of alle- 
 giance to the United States. It was the first I ever took. So have 
 all my brethren in the episcopacy taken it. The head of the Catholic 
 eimrch in the United States, is an American; so is a large number of 
 our clergy. The rest preferred this country, believing there was here, 
 what their own country denies, what our constitution guarantees, lib 
 erty of conscience. The oath that the bishops take, is not a recogni- 
 tion of any temporal power of the pope, out of his own territory, called 
 the States of the Church, in Italy. We would never take the oath in 
 the odious sense, which my opponent would force upon it. This so- 
 lemn and authentic abjuration should, alone, be sufficient to settle this 
 account ; for I surely know what I swear to, and that what I here 
 state will be seen and read by those, whom no human fear could deter 
 from denouncing me for error, if I could he guilty of any, on a point 
 with which I ought to be so well informed. The arms of our warfare 
 are not carnal, but spiritual. He that takes the sword, we believe 
 with Jesus Christ, will die by the sword. Hence, we assume no ob- 
 ligations by that oath, but such as God imposes; and those to be dis- 
 charged in his own divine spirit of meekness, charity, and good will. 
 It is cruel to impute to us crimes, and to insist that we hold doctrines, 
 which we disavow. Suppose I were so base, as to suborn two or 
 three wicked men, to calumniate my friend Mr. Campbell, and to pre- 
 tend that he was in active correspondence, for treasonable purposes, 
 with some foreign king, ought my opponent to be condemned unheard ? 
 And, in the absence of proof, should we, in spite of all his protesta- 
 tions to the contrary, condemn him on suspicion ? And, if any family 
 had tnei: reputation blasted by some base miscreant, ought this to 
 destroy their estimation in society, where his baseness is known 1 All 
 the ministers in the world may exert their talents and influence, to 
 preserve and promote peace and love among mankind ; but as long as 
 differences in religion are suffered to create jealousy, distrust, and ha- 
 tred between brethren ; and certain men make it their trade, to go 
 from town to town, for the express purpose of fanning these embers
 
 318 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 of discord, fomenting this hatred ; so long will the purest and best 
 men continue to be the victims of the malevolent, and our religion, and 
 our constitution, prove to be no more than the idlest day-dream. All 
 the kings and states of Europe, Protestant and Catholic, know that 
 the bishops take that oath, and yet, in none of them is a bishop looked 
 upon with distrust. In Prussia, Sweden, Denmark, England, the 
 government never molests a bishop about an oath, which is known to 
 contain nothing at which the most captious statesman could justly take 
 exception. Is not this sufficient proof, that there is in that oath npth- 
 ing of what my friend attributes to it. I assure him, Catholic bish- 
 ops are not the enemies that this republic needs to fear. 
 
 Every argument my friend employs against the Eucharist, only 
 proves him an inconsistent reasoner, or a deist, as far as the argument 
 goes. The paschal lamb was a figure of the eucharist, and the figure 
 was surely nobler than the reality, if we have nothing better than a 
 bit of bread in the eucharist. But the apostle tells us that the weak 
 and beggarly elements of the Jewish rites, were to obtain their glori- 
 ous fulfilment in the land of grace and only in the Catholic church 
 is this verified. We eat the paschal lamb sprinkled with, or in other 
 words, veiled beneath the appearance of bread ; and every objection 
 urged against the real presence is equally strong, or weak against the 
 incarnation. Can this paste, says Mr. C. be God ? I answer by an- 
 other question : can this informal embryo in a virgin's womb be God ? 
 
 We come now to Scotus. The gentleman says he heard or eaw 
 him quoted by the Catholics. He says many people quote Zoroas- 
 ter and Confucius without knowing any thing about them. There is 
 no parallel between them. If a man quotes, as evidence, a writer, 
 like Scotus, he ought to know who he was. I do not blame him for 
 knowing nothing of Chinese theology. But of "Christian theology, 
 it is a shame for a man, who pretends to be, himself, a teacher in Isra- 
 el, and a polemic, who challenges Catholic bishops, to be so grossly 
 ignorant. 
 
 My friend says we bow to the pope. In England, Protestants bow 
 to the foot-stool of the throne. I bow to any friend I meet I do not 
 pay him, nor the pope divine honor. We know the meaning of our 
 own bows, and words, and oaths, and would not pledge them insin- 
 cerely, much less blasphemously. No wonder that the pope lei him- 
 self be persuaded to do good, in the case cited by my friend. Should 
 he have preferred a contrary course 1 Have done evil 1 
 
 Temporal power is inferior to spiritual power, as human power is 
 inferior, to divine; just as heaven is superior to earth, in dignity and 
 value, and God superior to creatures, in every divine excellence, but 
 not in the sense that he who has been invested with spiritual power 
 by God, has also been invested by him, in a kingdom which is not of 
 this world, with temporal power. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest 
 scholar of the 13th century, and eminent scholar in the dark ages, 
 read his works, with those of a Kempis, for proofs of Catholic piety, 
 instead of garbled extracts from forgeries, and the works of apostates, 
 whom we discarded from our communipn for immoralities, which no 
 Protestant communion would tolerate. They breathe the spirit of 
 devotion, the spirit of God. 
 
 My friends, Mr. Kinmont will now tell you whether the pretended 
 quotation of Mr. Smith from Liguori, is correct. You will recollect 
 that Mr. Smith said, that, according to Liguori, the Catholic church
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 319 
 
 allows priests to keep concubines upon a fine. Upon hearing this I 
 at once said that the charge was an infamous falsehood ; and I will 
 now show that Liguori said no such thing ; that Liguori says the con- 
 trary. If I tell a falsehood Mr. Kinmont will confound me ; if I 
 do not, somebody does. Thus truth will triumph and falsehood he 
 confounded. 
 
 MR. KINMONT. I am called on in my professional character sim- 
 ply, f\A have no part or lot in this debate, (Mr. K. is understood to 
 be a Swedenborgian) I sincerely believe they are disputing about 
 shadows, and that both parties are equally in the wrong; but I will 
 d. what I can to assist in clearing up the difficulty of fact. I find 
 it stated in Samuel Smith's work and marked as a quotation from 
 Liguori under the article headed "concubines of clergy." 
 
 CoNCUKl.NtS OF THE CLERGY. " A bishop however poor he may be, cannot 
 appropriate to himself pecuniary fines without (he license of the Apostolical 
 See. But he ought to apply them to pious uses. Much less can he apply those 
 fines to ai.y thing else but pious uses, which the Council of Trtnt has laid upon 
 non-resident clergymen, or upon those clergymen voho keej) concubines." Ligor. 
 Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444. 
 
 And the following is Smith's commentary. 
 
 How shameful a thing, that the Apostolical See, as they call it, that is, that 
 the pope of Rome, should enrich his coffers by the fines which he receives from 
 the profligacy of his Clergy! If they keep concubines, they must pay a Jlne 
 for it; but if they marry, they must be excommunicated! This accounts, at 
 once, for the custom in Spain, and other countries, and especially on the island 
 of Cuba, and in South America; where almost every priest has concubines, who 
 are known by the name of nieces. These abandoned men are willing to pay 
 the fine rather than forego the gratification of their lustful appetites. The 
 " NARRATIVE OF ROSAMOND," who was once herself one of these concu- 
 bines, in the island of Cuba, portrays the general licentiousness of the popish 
 clergy, in colors so shocking, that the picture cannot be looked at without a 
 blush. Here we see the doctri-je fully exemplified by practice. This keeping 
 of concubines, is a thing so common in thepopish West India islands, and in 
 South America, that it is rarely noticed. The offspring of this priestly inter- 
 course are numerous. They are known to be the children of the priests; but, 
 because it is the general cuttom,it is lawful; and it passes oft merely with a 
 joke or sarcasm. 
 
 This is the text and commentary as I find it in Mr. Smith's book. 
 This is marked as Liguori, p. 444. If taken from Liguori at all, it is 
 taken from a different edition. The present purports to be a complete 
 Copy of the works of Liguori. It bears no mark of being an expur- 
 gated edition. It is said to be an edition of what was said and written 
 before with additions. On turning to the place where he treats of fines 
 and punishments inflicted for concubinage, he says that priests guilty 
 of this offence, were, after two ineffectual reprimands, to be degraded 
 from their functions. He refers to the council of Trent, and states 
 what that council decreed, Smith throws us on Liguori, and Liguori 
 on the council of Trent. There is nothing in Liguori relating to that 
 subject but this. The council was called about the year 1542. This 
 edition of the decrees of the council was edited by the council itself. 
 I have had an abstract taken which I will read. It would take some 
 time to read the original, and I have a translation made by one of my 
 scholars. I will read this. 
 
 " In the records of the decrees of the council of Trent, Session 25tli, chap. 
 14th, there is described the method of proceeding in the cases of clergy, who 
 arc riiiltv of concubinage. 
 
 A ft IT silt wing the scandal and enormity of this sin, especially in clergy, whose 
 integrity of life, should recommend and impress the precepts of religion aim of
 
 320 DEBATE OJi THE 
 
 the church ; the sacred synod forbids that any individual holding the clerical 
 office shall keep at his house or elsewhere, any mistress or unchaste woman or 
 cohabit with any such, under the penalty of having enforced against him the 
 sacred canon?, and ecclesiastical statutes regarding that matter. It is, then,espe- 
 rially enacted that if when admonished by their superiors they shall not desist 
 from" all such unlawful and forbidden acts, they shall be deprived of the third 
 part of all their revenues and ecclesiastical dues: and if still persevering in their 
 course, they shall not even heed a second admonition, they shall be deprived of 
 all their ecclesiastical reyenne and suspended from the administration of eccle- 
 siastical function*; and if, during this suspension, they shall continue obstinate 
 lad incorrigible, they shall be declared altogether unfit and incompetent to ex- 
 ercise any spiritual office whatever belonging to the church; unless after a cle- " 
 and unequivocal amendment of life, the church should think proper to with- 
 draw the disqualification, and allow them to resume their former station of 
 honor and trusl. But if after the resumption of the duties of their office, they 
 should resort to those impure practices which they had abandoned, besides the 
 infliction of the above named penalties, an act of excommunication with its 
 sword of justice shall cut them off, as dead branches from the body of the faith- 
 ful and church of the living God. And it is farther enacted that no appeal, or 
 exemption shall hinder the execution of any of these decrees, but that they shall 
 be summarily executed, at the will of the bishop, after he has ascertained the 
 existence ofthe enormities. A similar provision in its effects and spirit is made 
 with relation to bishops themselves, but the order of proceeding is different. 
 This is in substance the provision of the decre* of the council of Trent. Set 
 25, cap. 14. [Time expired.] 
 
 SATURDAY, JANUARY 21sr, Half-past 9 o'clock, A. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 Under any other circumstances than the present, I should have in- 
 sisted on being allowed the same number of minutes over my stipu- 
 lated hour, which my friend has taken with Mr. Kinmont's exposi 
 tion, over his usual time. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. I have no objection to MR. CAMPBELL'S occupy 
 ing that much more time. It is right that he should. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. I feel obliged to the gentleman for his courtesy, 
 and will therefore proceed. My friends, you will doubtless have ob 
 served, that of all the extracts read from Ligori, fo,ind on the pages 
 of Smith, but one was challenged by the v Bishop, on the ground thai 
 it is not found in the page of St. Ligori in the edition now before us. 
 The case is simply this. According to the moral theology of the church 
 of Rome, marriage is a greater sin than concubinage : for, if a priest 
 marry, he is forthwith excommunicated ; but if he keep a concubine 
 he only pays a fine. This is the statement that Mr. Smith makes . 
 and translates the passage in Ligori as follows : 
 
 " A bishop, however poor he may be, cannot appropriate to himself pecuniary 
 flue* without the license of the Apostolical see. But he ought to apply them 
 to pious uses. Much less can he apply those fines to any thing else but pious 
 u*ei, which the council of Trent has laid upon non-resident clergymen, or upon 
 those clertriimeniclio keep concubines." Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444. 
 
 Now, Bishop PCRCELL denies that there is such a passage in Ligo- 
 ~ri, or that there is in the council of Trent any such arrangement ; and 
 in proof of it, he has brought us an edition of St. Ligori, and the de- 
 ciees of the council of Trent. But the edition which he has produ- 
 ced, lias not, upon the page referred to, the passage quoted. In the 
 passage quoted, the reference to Ligori is to a decree of Trent. But
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION 321 
 
 there are always two ways of quoting a passage : the one verbatim , 
 and the other, substantially . .Whether Ligori quotes the decree of 
 Trent literally, or only quotes the suhstance, we cannot affirm. The 
 bishop referred this matter to Mr. Kinmont, without consulting me. 
 It was an exparte reference ; and therefore, comes not fairly before 
 us. Although I have no objection to Mr. Kinmont ; bu\ on the con- 
 trary, I think him very competent to decide a matter of this kind, if 
 he had time to examine all these volumes : and perhaps, had I been 
 consulted, I should have agreed in selecting him : yet as the refer- 
 ence is wholly one sided ; it can have no authority here. However, 
 so far as the decrees of Trent have been read, they do speak of finea 
 or forfeitures of those who have concubines, and these do substan- 
 tially sustain all that I have alleged. 
 
 I have this morning received a paper of Mr. Smith's, in which 1 
 find an article " on the authority of Ligori," which I will now read. 
 
 " Alphonsiis de Ligori was canonized by Pope Pius VII. on the 15th of Sep- 
 tember, A. D. 1815, under the title of the Most Illustrious and Most Reverend 
 Lord Alphonsus de Ligorio. He has written the Modern Theology of the 
 church ol Rome, in nine large volumes, containing 4701 pages, which was pub- 
 lished at Mechlin, Svperiorum Permissu, A. D. 1828. 
 
 His Theology is called, in the preface of the work, "The Light." His doc- 
 trine after having been explored, was approved of by Pope Pius, VII. on the 
 18th May, 1803, after the Sacred Congregation of Rites had given it their sanc- 
 tion, and had declared that there was NOTHING IN IT WORTHI OF CENSURE. 
 Ligori was spoken of by the sacred Pontiff, Leo XII. in the highest terms; and 
 his eminence the Serene Cardinal of Castile, the Major Penitentiary, in his letters 
 to the Bishop of Massilien, lays, that Saint Ligori is not only an ornament to the 
 Episcopal character by the illustrious splendor of his virtues; but he shines re- 
 splendent by his SOUND DOCTRINE, which is according to God. Doctrinam 
 sanctam.ac secundum Deum." (Pref. Editoris.) 
 
 In his preface to his Synopsis Mr. Smith observes : 
 
 "If they deny that we have given a fair translation, we will then challenge 
 them to come forward in a public assembly with the works of St. Ligori, when we 
 promise to meet them, and submit our translation, and the original, to the inspec- 
 tion of a committee, one half of whom to be chosen by ourselves, and the other 
 half by the Roman clergy. Truth never shuns investigation. If we have not 
 given a fair, genuine, and true translation, and if we have not exhibited the doc- 
 trines of Ligori, and the church of Rome fairly and correctly, without garbling, 
 or giving an erroneous construction, we will be willing to incur the consequences 
 that \vc ousrht to expect, for having deceived the public." Synop. Pref. p. 12. 
 
 I will thank the Bishop to inform me the date of his edition of the 
 works of Ligori. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. What is the date of Mr. Smith's edition! 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. 1828. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. This edition [pointing to hi> own"] was also 
 published in 1828 : so that it appears both are the same. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL [here taking up a volume of the Bishop's copy of 
 Ligori read] " Editio Nova Emendala." It hence appears that the 
 Bishop's is a new amended edition , so that, probably, this and the 
 One used by Mr. Smith are not the same. Be this, however as it may, 
 nothing. is lost by the. examination: nothing is proved against Mr. 
 Smith as a translator, and I shall write forthwith to New York to Mr 
 Smith for the original Latin of this passage in his edition, and have 
 it certified and published among this community. 
 
 But were it lawful to read in this assembly, I have before me the de- 
 crees of councils, and the words of bishops and cardinals, teaching 
 the very doctrine which the Bishop would represent as a reproach 
 or calumny on his clergy and church. Here is the decree of a coun-
 
 322 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 cil at Toledo, and here are references to various councils, such as Bi- 
 vii Concilia, Tom. I. pp. 737, 739. Crabb. Concil. Tom. I. p. 449. 
 Edition of 1551, and Pithou Corp. Ju. Canon, p. 47, as quoted by Dr. 
 Brownlee, which go to prohibit priests "from keeping more than one 
 concubine" and declare marriage in a priest to be " a mortal sin." 
 And here is Costerus and cardinal Campygio who taught what I dare 
 act read here ; but I will reserve all this for a more convenient season. 
 [Mr. Campbell here called for the reading again of the seventh 
 proposition, which being read by Mr. Piatt, one of the Moderators, 
 he proceeded.] 
 
 About the year 1088, Urban II. decrees : 
 
 " That subjects are by no authority const.' ainrd to pay the fidelity which they 
 have sworn to a Christian prince, who opposeth God and his saints, or violateta 
 their precepts.' An instance whereof we have in his granting a privilege to the 
 canons of Tours; 'which,' saith he, ' if any emperor, king, prince, &c. shall 
 wilfully attempt to thwart, let him be deprived of the dignity of his honor and 
 power." [Barrow, p. 22. 
 
 Again, the council of Toledo still more fully expresses the spirit 
 of the age. 
 
 " We the holy council promulge this sentence or decree, pleasing to God, that 
 whosoever hereafter shall succeed to the kingdom, shall not mount the throne, 
 till he has sworn among other oaths, to permit no man to live in his kingdom, 
 who is not a Catholic. And if after he has taken the reins of government, he 
 shall violate his promise, let him be anathema maranatha, in the sight of the 
 eternal God, and become fuel of eternal fire pabulum ignis asterni. [Caranza, 
 p. 404. 
 
 Innocent III. (that true wonder of the world and changer of the 
 age) affirms : 
 
 " Under Pope Innocent, III. it was ordained, that if any temporal lord, being 
 required and admonished by the church, .should neglect to purge his territory 
 from heretical filth, he should by the metropolitan and the other comprovincial 
 bishops, be noosed in the band of excommunication ; and that if he should slight 
 to make satisfaction within a year, it should be signified to the Pope, that he 
 might from that time' denounce the subjects absolved from their fealty to him, 
 and expose the territory to be seized on by Catholics." Barrow, p. 22. 
 
 Adrian I. A. D. 772, thus decrees : 
 
 " We do by general decree constitute, that whatever king, or bishop, or po- 
 tentate, shall hereafter believe, or permit, that the censure of the Roman pon- 
 tiffs may be violated in any case, he shall be an execrable anathema, and shall be 
 guilty before God, as a betrayer of the Catholic faith." P. Had. I. Capit apud 
 Grat. Caus. xxv. qu. 1. r 11. 
 
 Leo IX. says, that Constantine M. "did think it very unbecoming 
 that they should be subject to an earthly empire, whom the Divine 
 Majesty had set over an heavenly." Of Gregory II. who lived 
 A. D. 730, Barronius says, " He effectually caused both the Romans 
 and Italians to recede from obedience to the emperor." " So," con 
 tinues this authentic historian, " he did leave to posterity a worthy 
 example that heretical princes should not be suffered to reign in the 
 church of Christ, if being warned they should be found pertinacious 
 in error." To consummate the whole, Gregory II. did say to the em- 
 peror Isauros : " All the kingdoms of the west did hold St. Peter as 
 an earthly God." 
 
 Wishing to crowd as much into this speech as I possibly can in 
 one hour, I shall, with as much rapidity as is consistent with distinct- 
 ness of enunciation, hasten through many documents. Thus we have 
 seen, that for at least five centuries, the heads of the Roman church 
 clearly and unambiguously taught, that the spiritual sword was above 
 the temporal, and that the vicar of Christ is by a divine right Lord
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 323 
 
 of thrones and all earthly things. This, I have no doubt, is the true 
 doctrine of the immutable and infallible church of Rome! and ceitain 
 it is, that it has never been disowned, or renounced, by a general 
 council, the organ of infallibility. If the church of Rome be insus- 
 ceptible of reformation, or infallible ; it is proved to be essentially 
 anti- American, and opposed to the genius of our institutions. 
 
 To resume the bishop's oath. The gentleman at length admitted 
 that he had taken the bishop's oath, by saying, that he took the oath 
 of natural ization _/?;.' .' There is but one oath for Roman bishops in 
 all countries, therefore, the Bishop is sworn to " increase and advance 
 the authority of the pope," and persecute and oppose (fight against) 
 heretics and schismatics. If he have not taken this oath, he will please 
 refer us to the oath he has sworn, and specify its peculiarities. 
 
 The defence is a very singular one. He first swore allegiance to 
 the United States, and then to that foreign prince the pope. Does he 
 mean, contrary to common usage, that the first oath is more binding 
 than the second ; or, that it neutralizes the anti-American attributes 
 of the second. But his explanation is but half given in the first point, 
 that he took the oath of American allegiance btfore he took the oath 
 of Roman allegiance. The other ground of defence was in the 
 query, which, with such a triumphant air, he put to me yesterday 
 evening viz. whether I would not have been justified in breaking 
 my oath to England, had I been an American colonist or soldier at 
 the time of the revolution, when the king tyrannized over the Ameri- 
 cans 1 I have already answered this question, and have affirmed that 
 in Protestant doctrine, no circumstance or contingency, can ever ab- 
 solve a person from the obligation of an oath, into which he has in- 
 telligently and voluntarily entered. It is in the estimation of chris- 
 tians most impious and daring for any prince or pope to presume to 
 absolve men from the obligations of an oath solemnly taken. If, in- 
 deed, an" oath has in it the nature of a covenant, then one of the 
 parties failing, so far vacates the covenant as to set the other free 
 from his oath : but this is not absolution for breaking it; it is a simple 
 annulling of its conditions. Now, in the case supposed, the king of 
 England was generally allowed to have receded from the conditions 
 on which that oath was taken by the persons who renounced alle- 
 giance to him ; he having failed to protect and cherish his American 
 subjects, according to the tenor of the charter given, they were freed 
 from the obligations of allegiance. But I beg my audience to re- 
 member that the bishop attempts to defend himself for breaking his 
 oath in certain contingencies : else, why ask me such a question 1 
 The bishop's plea is, therefore, that oaths may be broken, and that 
 the pope can absolve men from allegiance on a justifiable emergency, 
 when the church, or some other great interest may demand it ! Of 
 what use then is the oath of naturalization 1 
 
 That the incompatibility of the bishop's oath with our oath of al- 
 legiance may be obvious, I shall quote the oath of naturalization, as 
 proposed to every foreigner by the laws of the United States: 
 
 The laws of the U. S. provide; That any alien, bein<>- a Iree white poison, 
 may be admitted to become a citizen of theU. S. or any o? them, on the follow- 
 ing 1 condition, and not otherwise: That he shall have declared on oath, or atlir- 
 mation, before the supreme superior, district, or circuit court, of some one of 
 the states, or a court of recor I having a clerk and seal 3 ^ cars at least before 
 admission.
 
 324 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Itt. Oath of Intention. 
 
 "That it was bonajide, his intention to become a citizen of the U. S. and to 
 renounce forever, all allegiance and fidelity, to anj foreign Prince, Potentate; 
 State or Sovereignty, whatsoever; and particularly^ by name, the Prince, Poten- 
 tate, State or Sovereignty, whereof he may, at the time be a citizen or rulijs ct. 
 
 That he shall, at the time of his application to be admitted, declare, on oath 
 or affirmation, before a court as above. 
 
 2<i. Oath of Renunciation, Abjuration, Sfc. and of Fidelity on Admitsion. 
 
 "That he will support the constitution of the U. S.and that he doth absolutely 
 and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to every foreign 
 Prince, Potentate, State or Sovereignty whatever; and particularly by name 
 the Prince, Potentate, State, Sovereignty whereof he was before a citizen or 
 ubject. 
 
 The court admitting the alien to be satisfied that he has resided five years 
 within the U. S. one year in the state, and that he has behaved as a man of 
 good moral character, attached to the principles of the constitution of the U. S. 
 and well disposed to the good order and happiness of the same. The residence 
 to be proved by a witness, not by oath of the applicant. 
 
 Where a person coming into the United States 3 years before 21 years of age, 
 proving same character, "and continued residence 5 years, admitted as before 
 stated on the first application, on taking final oath of abjuration, renunciation, 
 fidelity, &c. without the first oath of intention 
 
 Further provided; That in case the alien applying to be admitted to citizen- 
 ship, shall nave borne any hereditary title, or been of any of the orders of -\o- 
 bilitv, in the kingdom or state from which he came., he shall in addition to th 
 above requisites, make an express renunciation of bis title or order of Nobility, 
 at the time to be recorded, &c. 
 
 Further provided That no alien who shall be a native citizen, denizen, or 
 subject of any country, state or sovereign, with whom the U. S. shall be at war at 
 the time of h'is application, shall be then admitted to be a citizen of the U. S.' 
 &c. &c. 
 
 Such are the oaths and laws of naturalization. Now, as the pope 
 of Rome is a foreign prince at this very moment a prince temporal 
 as well as spiritual, exercising political authority over the stales of 
 Home, and claiming allegiance in temporals as well as spirituals, 
 throughout the whole Roman Catholic world ; I ask, can any one 
 who has sworn " to increase and advance his authority," or feeling 
 himself so bound, as he shall answer for it to the supreme judge of the 
 universe, take or keep the oath of citizenship in this country without 
 perjury"?! In my most deliberate judgment, it is impossible. 
 
 The case is simply this : The oath of naturalization requires the 
 candidate for citizenship to swear that he does absolutely and cniirtly 
 renounce all allegiance and fidelity to every foreign prince, potentate, 
 state, or sovereignty. Now, the pope of Rome is a sovereign of Eu- 
 rope a foreign potentate, issuing bulls, laws, or briefs, throughout 
 the world : often to secure, augment and advance his authority, in 
 temporals, as well as spirituals ; as the testimony of 500 years now 
 before you, amply demonstrates ; and every Roman Catholic layman 
 feeling a paramount obligation to his bishop, and through him to the 
 pope ; and all the rulers of the Roman Catholic church, being sworn 
 to the pope absolutely and forever, I ask, can such persons k> good 
 faith solemnly swear allegiance to this government 1 If a person can 
 be sworn to support two antagonist constitutions, governments, powers, 
 two masters, as opposite as the poles : then may he, without per- 
 jury, swear to our government, and to that of papal Rome ! 
 
 But bishops are sworn _" to persecute and oppose Cpersequar et im- 
 
 l>o) heretics and schismatics. Papal Rome is and always has 
 
 been, a persecuting government. She is essentially so. I intend not 
 
 now to dwell much on this theme. But I will sustain my proposition
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 325 
 
 And first, I admit that Protestants have persecuted, that they have 
 persecuted even to death I deny it not; and therefore my opponent 
 need not prove it. It is .'a matter of record indisputable however, 
 that their persecutions have not been as a drop to the ocean, in compa- 
 rison of papal persecutions. Still they ha^ e persecuted, and we frank- 
 ly own it. But we have an excuse for them. The first Protestants 
 after the Lutheran Reformation, came out from a bloody and cruel 
 mother, who had accustomed them to blood and slaughter, and taughi 
 them that the blood of heretics was a sacrifice, most acceptable to 
 God. They were taught that it was just to destroy thieves, rob- 
 bers, and murderers; and that heretics were the worst of thieves, 
 robbers, and murderers, and ought when incorrigible to be slain : for 
 so the good of society did imperiously demand. As soon as they 
 got out of the great city, they began to contend among themselves, 
 whether persecution was right. They soon saw it was of the manners 
 and customs of Babylon ; and that " all who take the sword must 
 perish by the sword ;" therefore they laid it down. They have ab- 
 jured it in their creeds and remonstrances against the papacy; and we 
 rejoice to state the fact, that there is not in Protestant Christendom 
 a single creed that does not repudiate persecution and assert the great 
 principle of Christian and religious liberty. 
 
 But I have said that papal Rome is essentially a persecuting power 
 still a persecuting monarchy ; because she has it yet written in her 
 infallible and immutable decrees of councils, in the bulls and ana- 
 themas of her popes ; and in the constitution of her inquisitions, which 
 as a church she still acknowledges and maintains. A few of her in- 
 fallible decrees must be accepted as a specimen. 
 
 " In the fifth council of Toledo, Can. 3rd, the holy fathers say, ' We the holy 
 council promulge this sentence, or decree pleasing to God, That whosoever 
 ' hereafter shall succeed to the kingdom, shall not mount the throne till he has 
 sworn among other oaths, to permit no man to live in his kingdom who is not a 
 Catholic. (Nullum non Catholicuin.) And if after he has taken the reins of go- 
 vernment, he shall violate this promise, let him be anathema maranatha in the 
 sight of the eternal God, and become fuel for the eternal fire, (Pabulum ignis 
 a'terni.) Caranza Sum. Conciliorum, p. 404. 
 
 The great Lateran council under Innocent HI. who instituted the in- 
 quisition and transubstantiation, has still more expressly decreed : 
 
 " We excommunicate, and anathematize all heresy, condemning all heretics, 
 by what names soever they are called. ***** 
 
 These being condemned, must be left to the secular power to be punished. 
 And those who are only suspected of heresy, if they purge not themselves in the 
 appointed way, are to be excommunicated, and if within a year satisfaction is not 
 given, they are to be condemned as heretics. 
 
 They must take this oath. " That they will endeavor, bona fide, and with all 
 their might, to exterminate from every part of their dominions all heretical sub- 
 jects, universally, that are marked out to them by the church. So that from 
 this time forward, when any one is promoted to any power temporal or spiritual, 
 he shall be obliged to confirm this. But if any temporal lord, being required 
 and admonished by the church, shall neglect to purge his land from this here- 
 tical filthiness, he shall be tied up in the band of excommunication by the me- 
 tropolitan and his comprovincial bishops. And if he should neglect to make 
 satisfaction within a year, it should be signified to the pope, that he might from 
 that time pronounce the subjects absolved from allegiance to him, and expose 
 his territories to be seized on by Catholics, who expelling heretics, shall pos- 
 sess them without contradiction. 
 
 But Catholics, who having taken the badge of the cross, shall set themselves 
 o extirpate heretics, shall enjoy the same indulgence and be fortified with th 
 same privilege as is granted to those who go to the recovery of the holy land." 
 2 C
 
 326 BEBATE H THE 
 
 And, to save time, be it emphatically observed, that the council of 
 Trent fully established, adopted, and re-promulged these decrees, and 
 they are, at this moment, ii. full force at Rome. Until, then, a general 
 council is called, and makes fallible the decisions of the great Lateran 
 council; such is, and must be the dictum and belief of the Roman 
 church ;. and, as I judge, there never will be another general council 
 this will ever be the doctrine of papal Rome, till the day of her death. 
 Is this, I emphatically ask, the genius and spirit of republican 
 America ? 
 
 But edicts, canons, and decrees, are not a dead letter. They have 
 been all personified, and acted out to the letter. Who has not heard 
 of that personification of every thing that is diabolically cruel the 
 HOI,Y OFFICE OF THE INQUISITION T What abuse of language ! Think 
 not, rr.y mends, that I will rake up its ashes ; that I will rehearse its 
 horrible racks, and engines, and instruments of torture ; that I will 
 describe a single auto da /e, one of the horrid tragedies of the acts of 
 faitb, whose flagrance language fails to speak. " It was the vice of 
 the ap';," my opponent has said. Of what age 7 Of Innocent III. 1 
 Of the era of transubstantiationl No, indeed ; but of the age of Xa- 
 poleon ; of the age of pope Pius, the saint of 1814 ! Yes, of the pres- 
 ent >ge ! It was got up, indeed, by Innocent (inapposite name !) III., 
 and was fully in operation in Italy, A. D. 1251. Its first officer, Do- 
 minic, was afterwards made a saint ! In Spain and Portugal it was 
 perfected ; and its reign of terror, in unfigurative truth, transcends all 
 description My soul sickens at the thought. In Spain alone, from 
 1481 to 1814, about half a million suffered by it. Lorente (Paris 
 edit. torn. iv. p. 271,) sets down the victims of one department of tor- 
 ment, those burnt, at 33,912; and of other rigorous punishments, al 
 291,450. He is, by other historians, supposed to be far below the 
 full amount. From the records of the inquisition, the manuscripts 
 taken from the inquisitorial palace at Barcelona, when taken by siege 
 in 1828, one may reckon, that in all Spain, in a little over three centu- 
 ries, half a million suffered all manner of cruelties from this infernal 
 tribunal. 
 
 It was even employed as a means of converting the heathen, in pa- 
 gan lands. It is said, that 800 persons have been condemned at one 
 session, by one of its tribunals. And, still worse, in Seville, in the 
 year 1481, 2000 persons were condemned to the flames, and '20,000 
 more to inferior punishments. Such were the tender mercies of these 
 Roman gospel arguments to save men's souls from hell ! It was the 
 vice of a dark age, and yet restored by Pius VII. in 1826! ! What! 
 
 But, this is only one of the tribunals of persecution : it was only 
 one of the means of persecuting and destroying heretics and schis- 
 matics. Shall I relate the persecutions of the Waldenses and Albigen- 
 ses, and other Protestants, sometimes called Lollards, Wickliffites, 
 Hugonots, &c. &c.? Shall I tell of the millions in France, Spain, 
 Portugal, Holland, England, Ireland, and elsewhere 1 Shall I tell of 
 the massacre of St. Bartholomew's day 7 of the persecutions conse- 
 quent upon the revocation of the edict of Nantz ] or the Irish massa- 
 cre? and of all the other deeds of horror] I shall not attempt it. I 
 cannot describe the slaughter of two millions, in the early crusades 
 against Jews and infidels; nor of fifteen millions of Indians and pa- 
 gans ; nor of a million Waldenses, murdered and banished in a single
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 32* 
 
 generation . I say, again, I cannot relate these heart-stirring scenes ; 
 and I shall only say, that historians and martyrologists variously give 
 the aggregate from fifty to sixty-eight millions of human beings, that 
 have been sacrificed and devoured by this Moloch ; this insatiable de- 
 mon of persecution, as taught in theory and carried out in practice, by 
 her who calls herself HOLY MOTHER ! ! ! What a scarlet, crimsoned, 
 cruel mother she is! On her will be avenged the blood of all martyrs 
 Even the persecutions of those whom she taught to persecute, lie just- 
 ly chargeable against her. What guarantee, then, have we that this be- 
 ing the native spirit of the system, it would not again repeat the same 
 tragic scenes, in any country where it obtains an ascendancy? 'Tis 
 true, indeed, that the Protestant powers in Europe hold it now in 
 check. But. were these removed, from what premises would we in- 
 ter, that the same means would not be resorted to in this and every 
 Protestant country, so soon as this kind mother should feel it a duty, 
 " to extirpate heresy" out of the land ] ! 
 
 The doctrine is actually taught in her New Testament, in the nu_^ 
 appended to the Rhemish version. I will give you a passage or two. 
 
 "And when his disciples James and John had seen it, they said, Lord wilt thou 
 we say that nre come down from heaven, and consume them? And turning-, he 
 rebuked them, saying:, you know not of what spirit you are." Luke ix.54, 55. 
 
 " Ver. 55. fie rebuked them. Not justice nor all rigorous punishment of 
 sinners is here forbidden, Ellas' fact reprehended, nor the church or Chris- 
 tian pnilces blamed for putting heretics to death: but that none of these should 
 be done for desire of our particular revenge, or without discretion, and regard 
 to their amendment, and example to others. Therefore, Peter used his power 
 upon Ananias and Sapphira, when he struck them both down to death for de 
 fmuKng the church." Rhem. N. Test. p. 109. . 
 
 This is a mistake. Peter struck not Ananias and Sapphira for dt 
 frauding the church, (as these purblind commentators say ;) but the 
 Lord himself struck them dead, for lying against the Holy Spirit. 
 Christian princes, thus, in reading the Roman Testament, are taught 
 to put heretics to death. 
 
 "Anil many ot them that had followed curious things, brought together their 
 books and burnt them before all: and counting the prices of them, they found the 
 money to be fifty thousand pence." Acts xix. 19. 
 
 " Ver. 19. Books. A Christian man is bound to burn or deface all wicked books 
 of what sort soever, especially heretical books. Which though they infect not 
 him always that keepeth them, yet being forth coming, they may be noisome 
 and pernicious to other that shall have them and read them after his death, or 
 otherwise. Therefore hath the church taken order for condemning all such 
 books, and against the reading of them where danger may ensue: and the Chris- 
 tian emperors, Constantius, Magnus, Valentinian, Theotlosius, Marcian, Justin- 
 ian, made penal laws for the burning or defacing them." Ib. p. 207. 
 
 This proscription of heretical books is of the same spirit, a part of 
 the same system, and explains the march of papistical uniformity and 
 unity ! 
 
 " As we have said before, so now I say again, if any evangelize to j'Ou, beside 
 that which you have received, be he anathema." Gal. i. 9. 
 
 " Hierome useth this place, wherein the apostle giveth the curse, or ana- 
 thema to all false teachers, not once, but twice, to prove that the zeal of Catholic 
 men ought to be so great toward all heretics, and their doctrines, that they 
 should give them the anathema, though they were never so dear unto them. 
 In which case, saith this holv Doctor, I would not spare mine own parents." Id. 
 p. 292. 
 
 This is stronger still. " I WOULD NOT SPARE MINE OWN PARENTS !' 
 This is the spirit, the naked spirit of the svstem, pure and unmixed. 
 V'jmember, then, my friends, that childrei ought to inform against
 
 828 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 their own parents, and brother against brother, for the extirpation oft 
 heresy ! 
 
 ' And I saw the woman drunken of the blood of the Saints and of the blood 
 of the martyrs of Jesus." Rev. xvii. 6. 
 
 Ver. 6. Drunken of the blood. It is plain, that this woman signifieth the 
 whole corps of all the persecutors that have and shall shed so much blood of 
 the just : of the prophets, apostles, and other martyrs, froiv. the beginning of 
 the world tt> the end. The Protestants possibly expound it of Rome, for thai 
 they put heretics to death, and allow of their punishment in other countries: 
 But their blood is not called the blood of saints, no more than the blood of 
 thieves, mankillers, and other malefactors: for the shedding of which by order 
 of justice, no commonwealth shall answer." Id. p. 430. 
 
 No commonwealth, consequently no member of it, shall suffer for 
 Killing heretics. If I have not sustained this proposition, 1 can prove 
 nothing. If these facts and documents can be set aside i>y rhetorical 
 declamation, or reckless denial ; then are history, and testimony, ana 
 fact, of no value in controversy. 
 
 Another specification comes under this proposition. I have too many 
 af them for the occasion. I must be brief. This is the divorcing, re- 
 pelling, disorganizing, and demoralizing dogma, that " no faith shou/d 
 be kept with heretics." 
 
 Gregory VII., in a council at Rome, declares : 
 
 " \Ve following the statutes of our predecessors, do, by our apostolic author- 
 ity, absolve all those from their oath of fidelity, who are bound to excommuni- 
 cated persons, either by-duty or oath ; and we unloose them from every tie of 
 obedience, till the excommunicated persons have made proper satisfaction." 
 Decret. 2 part. caus. 15. quest. 6. 
 
 Urban II. teaches the same doctrine : 
 
 " You are to discharge the soldiers who have sworn fidelity to coqnt Hugo 
 from paving any obedience while he is 'jvomrnumca/ed: for they are not obliged 
 to keep that fidelity inviolate, which they have sicom to a Christian prince, who 
 opposes God, and his saints, and despises their precepts." Ibid. 
 
 Gregory IX. has laid down the general principle, with the greatest 
 care and precision : 
 
 "Be it known to all who are under the dominion of heretics, that they are 
 set free from every tie of fidelity and duty to them; all oaths or solemn agree- 
 ment to the contrary notwithstanding." Decret. Greg. lib. 5, tit. 7. 
 
 Hear now the decree of the council of Constance, in the case of 
 John Huss, and Jerome of Prague ; who appeared there under the 
 solemn pledge of the imperial protection. 
 
 " Council of Constance, 1414, did solemnly decree that no faith is to be kept 
 with an heretic. The person who has given them the safe conduct to come 
 thither, shall not in this case be obliged to keep his promise by whatever tie he 
 may have been engaged, when he has done all that has been in his power to do." 
 Bruce. Free Thought, p. 120. 
 
 The council of Constance then, not only so decided ; but caused 
 those men, who appeared before them under an imperial pledge, to be 
 taken and burned. Thus faith was not to be kept with heretics accord- 
 ing to said decree, and the practice under it by these " holy fathers ?" 
 
 To confirm the whole with the utmost brevity I would add, the ho- 
 ly, infallible, and last council of Trent formally recognized this de- 
 cree of the council of Constance. It is then the standing and unrepealed 
 doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, which must be as immutable 
 and infallible as the council of Trent. 
 
 Next W T C must notice the proscription of books as another specifi 
 cation. 
 
 The council of Trent in its 25th session, decreed that ,\ council 
 vmder the pope should draw up and publish an index of books whicb
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 329 
 
 were to be prohibited in the church. Thus commenced and keeping 
 pace with the introduction of liberal, or Protestant, or anti-Roman 
 Catholic volumes it has grown into a respectable volume ; so that 
 one of the finest libraries might be collected out of these proscribed 
 books. Among these is the bible, which is said to have been the 
 first prohibited in me council of Toloso. In the 4th of the 10 rules 
 concerning prohibited books established by the Holy Fathers of the 
 council of Trent, a license to read the bible is put into the control of 
 bishops and inquisitors. But he that presumes to " read without 
 such license cannot receive absolution of sins." Among these prohib- 
 ited books also are those of Locke, Milton, Bacon, Grotius, Galileo, 
 Claude, Saurin, Sir Matthew Hale, Jeremy Taylor, Luther, Calvin, 
 Melarcthon, ahd, indeed, all the standard Protestant authors. 
 
 Touching the liberty of the press, a decree of the 10th session of 
 the Lateran council A. D. 1215, even Leo X. presiding expresses the 
 Roman Catholic views of that chief root of the tree of liberty. The 
 decree of the Lateran council was sanctioned by Trent and is now the 
 orthodox faith of Rome. 
 
 " By order of the holy council, we, in fine, ordain and decree, that no person 
 shall presume to print, or cause to be printed, any book or other writing- whatso- 
 ever, either in our city (Rome) or in an} 1 other cities and dioceses, unless it shall 
 first have been carefully examined, if in this city, by "bur Vicar and the master of 
 the holy palace, or it in other cities and dioceses, by the bishop or his deputy, 
 with the inquisitor of heretical pravity for the diocese, in which the said impres- 
 sion is about to be made ; and unless also it shall have received, under their own 
 hand, their written approval, given without price and without delay. Whoso- 
 ever shall presume to do otherwise, besides the loss of the books, which shall 
 be publicly burned, shall be bound by the sentence of excommunication. " 
 l,'ar;mza, p. 670. 
 
 The council of Trent has also confirmed the doctrine of Leo X. 
 and his Lateran council of 1515. Their first rule concerning pro- 
 scribed books is : Jill books condemned by the supreme pontiffs, or gen- 
 tral councils before the year 1515 and not comprised in the present index, 
 are condemned." The creed of this said council of Trent moreove; 
 compels every Roman Catholic " tp receive undoubtedly, all things 
 delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred canons, and general councils 
 and particularly by the Holy council of Trent.' 11 
 
 This church is as much opposed to the freedom of the press and 
 free discussion, and the circulation of the bible, as ever she was ; but 
 she has to yield a little to that irresistible innovator, called custom. 
 Still however a Roman bishop cannot, as a good and liege subject of 
 the pope, but oppose, freedom of thought, speech and action in ail 
 matters religious. Listen to the following little bull of the bishop 
 of New York, published the other day against free discussion. 
 
 In this document the bishop writes, in his address to the editor of the " Truth 
 Teller," " Sir, I consider it my duty to request you to publish the following 
 copy of my letter to the editor of the " Catholic Diary," in order to obviate as 
 soon as possible, the mischief which such a Society, if countenanced, might pro- 
 duce. You knowmv opposition to controversial disputes ou religion, particular- 
 ly in debating societies or newspapers." 
 
 From the letter alluded to, we extract the following : 
 
 "To the Editor of the Catholic Diary : 
 
 In the Catholic Diary of Saturday last, October 1, I find a notice from you, of 
 a Society, calling itself' the New-York Catholic Society, for the promotion of 
 religious knowledge. Of the existence of that Society, I was utterly ignorant 
 and feel surprised that you, who ought to know better, would think of encour- 
 aging and drawing public attention to sucli a society, without first ascertaining 
 the sentiments of your Ordinary on so important a subject. The Church wisely 
 2C2 42
 
 330 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ordains that nothing of the nature of this society can be estarjftshed without tha 
 approbation of the Bishop of the Diocese, where it is meant to introduce it, and 
 that permitted, it should be governed by such rules and regulations as to him may 
 seem proper, for it obviously partakes of the nature of a Theological school. 
 Far be it from me to impede the progress of religious knowledge ; nothing could 
 be more dear to my heart than to encourage whatever coxitributes effectually to 
 its promotion ; but placed as I am, as a sentinel over the*acred ark of religion, 
 it is my imperative duty to prevent it from being touched by profane or unprac- 
 tised hands. 
 
 So far from viewing this society in the light you see it, it is my decided con- 
 viction that it ought not to be sanctioned by me ; how can it be supposed that 
 young men, whose education is chiefly mercantile or mechanical, can come with 
 sufficient preparation to the discussion of a question that requires vast erudition, 
 with a degree of research, which they cannot possess ; you cannot be ignorant 
 of the severe mental discipline to which students are subjected in our Theologi- 
 cal Seminaries, before they are allowed to commence the study of theology. 
 You know also that this study is regulated by experienced and able professors, 
 that young men are not allowed to grope their way with only their own feeble 
 light, through the dark mazes of deceitful cavil, and infidel sophistry. 
 
 The members of this society . who thirst so much for religious knowledge, can 
 read our elementary works, anc also, the masterly productions of Milner, Fletch- 
 er, Bossuet's history of the Variations, lately printed, and others, where they 
 are sure to find the tenets of our faith explained with a precision and elegance 
 that cannot fail to satisfy the sincere inquirer after truth. The precision of 
 ideas, and elegance of expression in the imparting of religious knowledge, their 
 preamble sets forth to be the main objects of this society, and it covers the desire 
 and intention of acquiring that species of tact and dexterity in theological de- 
 bate, which would enable them to follow into the arena the fanatics of the 
 day. All this I must condemn as well as a publication of the crude essays of 
 tyros among us. Let us dispute less and practice more. 
 
 The church in the most positive manner prohibits all laymen from entering 
 into dispute on points of religion with sectarians, " inhibemus,"' says Pope Alex 
 ander IV., " ne unquam Laicas Persons liceat publice vel private de fide Catholi 
 ca disputare ; qui vere contradicerit, Excommunicationis laqueo innodetur."* 
 Had vou recollected this sentence, I am sure you would be far from calling on 
 the Catholic young men of this city to become members of a debating society 
 on religious subjects, open to so many serious objections. 
 
 " t JoHTf, Bishop of New- York." 
 
 After having read you a bishop's bull against " The New 'York 
 Catholic society for the promotion of religious knowledge," I will, 
 while on this subject, read you also a bishop's curse against a refrac- 
 tory priest in Philadelphia. I quote it from one of the News-papers 
 of that day. It happened some twelve or fifteen years ago. I have 
 several such cases in the books around me : but they are some two or 
 three centuries old, and in foreign countries ; and therefore, I select this 
 modern one which is almost a copy of them, because a little acclimated. 
 
 [/Yowi a Philadelphia Paper.'] We have at length obtained a correct copy 
 of the excommunication of W illiam Hogan, Pastor of St. Mary's Church, of this 
 city. It is as follows: 
 
 By the authority of God Almighty, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and the 
 undefiled Virgin Mary, mother and patroness of our Savior, and of all celes- 
 tial virtues, Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominions, Powers, Cherubims and 
 Seraphims; and of all the Holy Patriarchs, Prophets, and of all the Apostles and 
 Evangelists of the Holy Innocents, who, in the sight of the Holy Lanib are 
 found worthy to sing the new song of the Holy Martyrs and Holy Confessors, 
 and of all the Holy Virgins, and of all Saints, together with the Holy Elect of 
 God- -may he, William Hogan, be damned. 
 
 We excommunicate and anathematize him, and from the threshold of the Holy 
 Church of God Almighty, we sequester him, that he may be tormented, disposed 
 
 * The English of which Bull it : " The Church prohibits laymen, either publicly or 
 privately, from arguing on subjects appertaining to the Catholic faith, and whosoever shall 
 violate thiu prohibition, let him be bound with the cord of Excommunication."
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 331 
 
 and be delivered over with Athan and Abirani, and with those who say unto the 
 Lord, depart from us for we desire none of thy ways ;" as a fire is quenched with 
 watr-i, so let the light of him be put out forevermore, unless it shall repent him, 
 and make satisfaction. Amen! 
 
 May the Father, who created man, curse him ! May the Son, who suffered for 
 us, curse him! May the !' <>l\ Ghost, who suffered for us in baptism, curse him! 
 May the Holy Cross which Christ for our salvation, triumphing over his enrmies. 
 ascended, curse him! 
 
 May the Holy and Eternal Virgin Mary, mother of God, curse him ! May St. Mi- 
 chael, the Advocate of the Holy Souls, curse him, May all the angels, principali- 
 ties, and powers, and all heavenly armies, curse him! 
 
 May the praiseworthy multitude of Patriarchs, and Prophets, curse him! 
 
 May St. John the Precursor, and St. John the Baptist, and St. Peter, and St 
 Paul, and St. Andrew, and all other of Christ's Apostles together, curse him! and 
 
 may the rest of our Disciples and Evangelists, who by their preaching converted 
 the universe, and the holy and wonderful company of Martyrs and Confessor, 
 who by their holy works are found pleasing to God Almighty. May the holy 
 
 choir of the Holy Virgins, who for the honor of Christ have despised the things 
 of the world, damn him! May all the saints from the beginning of the world 
 to everlasting ages, who are found to be beloved of God, damn him! 
 
 May he be damned wherever he be, wjiether in the house or in the stable, the 
 garden or the field, or the highways; or in the woods, or in the waters, or in the 
 church; maybe be cursed in living and in dying! 
 
 May he be cursed i'n eating and in drinking, in being hungry, in being thirsty, 
 in fasting, in sleeping, ... slumbering, and in sitting, in living, in working, m 
 resting and blood letting! 
 
 May he be cursed in all the faculties 01 his body. 
 
 May he be cursed inwardly and outwardly; may he be cursed in his brains 
 and in his vertex, in his temples, in his eye-brows, in his cheeks, in his jawbones, 
 in his nostrils, in his teeth and grinders, in his lifs in his throat, in his shoulders, 
 in his arms, in his fingers. 
 
 May he be damned in his mouth, in his breasts, in his heart and purtenance, 
 down to the very stomach ! 
 
 May he be cursed in his reins and in his groins; in his thighs, in his genitals 
 and in his hips, and his knees, his legs and feet, and toe nails! 
 
 May he be cursed in all his joints, and articulation of the members; from the 
 crown of his head to the sole of his feet, may there be no soundness. 
 
 May the Son of the living God, with all the glory of his majesty, curse him! 
 And may heaven with all the powers that move therein, rise up against him and 
 curse and damn him; unless he repent and make satisfaction! 
 
 Amen. So be it. Re it so. Amen. 
 
 Ridiculous as this may appear laughable or profane ; it is never- 
 theless, but the echo of one of the one hundred anathemas com- 
 Banded in the council of Trent one of the greater excommunications 
 due to an obstinate heretic. 
 
 As still more indicative of the present views and feelings of the 
 Roman see, on the subject of civil and religious liberty, I shall give 
 you a few more extracts. I had laid off several modern documents 
 of much point, and bearing on this proposition ; but unfortunately, 
 they were misplaced in my library, and I find them missing among the 
 books I have brought with me. I hold in my hand, however, a little 
 work in which I find some of them. This little volume containing 
 " Dr. Beecher's Plea for the West," ought to be in every family, and 
 read by every adult in the great valley, who feels any interest in the 
 preservation of our free and happy institutions. I wish I had time to 
 read much of it. I can only read a few passages of the documentary 
 data which it contains : 
 
 I am about to read from Gregory XVI. the present successor of Pe- 
 ter, under date of 1832, the present faith of Roman Catholics on the 
 subject of conscience, and liberty of the press. 
 
 "From tliis polluted fountain 91' indiHUrence, tiows that absurd and erroneous
 
 832 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 doctrine, or rather raving, in favor and defence of 'liberty of conscience,' for 
 which most pestilential error, the course is opened for that entire and wild lib- 
 erty of opinion, which is every where attempting the overthrow of religious and 
 civil institutions; and which the unblushing impudence of some has held forth 
 as an advantage to religion. Hence that pest, of all others most to be dreaded 
 in a state, unbridled liberty of opinion, licentiousness ol speech, and lust o! no- 
 velty, which, according to the experience of all ages, portend the downfall of 
 the most powerful and flourishing empires. " Hither tends that worst and ne- 
 ver sufficiently to be execrated and detested LIBERTY OF THE PRESS for the dif- 
 fusion of all manner of writings, which some so loudly contend for, and so ac- 
 tively promote." p. 121. 
 
 This so fresh from Rome, stamped with the seal of infallibility, 
 without another word, sustains that specification in my proposition 
 relating to the anti-American spirit and genius of the grand elements 
 of popery. 
 
 But continues he on the subject of unlicensed books : 
 
 "Ao means must be here omitted, says Clement XIII., our predecessor of 
 happy memory, in the Encyclical Letleron the proscription of bad books 'no 
 means must be here omitted,' as the extremity of the case calls lor all our exer- 
 tions, to exterminate the fatal pes! which spreads through so many works; nor 
 can the materials of error be othencise destroyed thwi by the flames, which con- 
 sume the depraved elements of the evil." 
 
 The secretary of the court of Vienna and counsellor of legation I 
 mean Frederick Schlegel, who, in 1828, lectured on the philosophy 
 of history in favor of monarchy and popery one supreme bishop, and 
 one supreme monarch who was one of the Austrian cabinet, the con- 
 fidential counsellor of Prince Metternich whose policy and opinions 
 opened the way for Austrian efforts on the foundation of St. Leopold, 
 to add America to the pope's dominions I say, of this great man and 
 his opinions, the author of a foreign conspiracy, as quoted by Doctor 
 Beecher, thus speaks : 
 
 "In the year 1828 the celebrated Frederick Schlegel, one of the most dis- 
 tinguished literary men of Europe, delivered lectures at Vienna, on the philoso- 
 phy of history, (which have not been translated into English) a great object of 
 which is to show the mutual support which popery and monarchy derive from 
 each other. He commends the two systems in connexion as deserving o! uni- 
 versal reception. He attempts to prove that the sciences, and arts, and all the 
 pursuits of man, as an intellectual being, are. best promoted under this perfect 
 system of church and state: a pope at the head of the former; an emperor at the 
 head of the latter. He contrasts with this, the system of Protestantism; repre- 
 sents Protestantism as the enemy of good government, as the ally of republican- 
 ism, as the parent of the distresses ol Europe, as the cause of all the disorders 
 with which legitimate governments are afflicted. In the close of lecture 17th, 
 Vol. II. p. 286, he thus speaks of this country: The TRUE .NURSERY of all 
 these dettructive principles, the revolutionary schoolfor France and the rest of 
 Europe, has been North America. Thence the evil has spread over many other 
 lands, either by natural contagion, or by arbitrary communication. Ib. p. 122, 
 123. 
 
 Such are the popular views of our institutions in the best and purest 
 church district in the world : and the emigrants of that country with 
 those opinions are daily crowding to our shores, and filling up this 
 immense valley. These are they who are taught to execrate the lib- 
 erty of the press, and to consider liberty of conscience pestilential er- 
 ror, and that a spiritual monarch, and a political emperor are the very 
 paragon of all excellence in church and state. Is this compatible with 
 the genius of our institutions ? Are not such views and reasonings, 
 positively subversive of them? 
 
 Let me observe from that book of Fessenden's of which my oppo- 
 nent seemed to know so much yesterday : but the author of which he
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 333 
 
 cannot now name, as 1 believe, (if he can, however, he may tell us 
 something- about him) I say from the Encyclopedia of Religious 
 Knowledge, and from some other documents before me, I would wish 
 to read a few statements, to show that this said Roman Catholic In- 
 stitution, chameleon like, first accommodates itself to the customs of 
 every country, and seems to inhale and exhale the popular atmosphere 
 until it reaches its end ; (for well the Jesuit knows the means may be 
 infinitely various, while the end is one'and immutable,) and so soon as 
 it gains the fulcrum of popular opinion and the lever of the majority, 
 it builds up an empire, after the model of the Prince Metternich. This 
 has hitherto been its history, in every climate, and country, and age. 
 A single example of this policy, taken from the Encyclopedia, must 
 suffice : 
 
 " Various attempts have been made to bring this church under the papal yoke 
 but without success. The Portuguese having opened a passage into Abyssinia in 
 Ihe fifteenth century, an emissary was sent to extend the influence and authority 
 of the Roman pontiff, clothed with the title of patriarch of the Abyssinians. The 
 same important commission was afterwards given to several Jesuits, when some 
 circumstances seemed to promise them a successful and happy ministry; but the 
 Abyssinians stood so firm to the faith of their ancestors, that towards the close of 
 tht- sixteenth century the Jesuits had lost nearly all hope in that quarter. 
 
 About the beginning of the seventeenth centurv the Portuguese fesuits renew- 
 ed the mission to Ab3 - ssinia, when the emperor created one of them patriarch; 
 and not only swore allegiance to the Roman pontiff, but also obliged his subjects 
 to forsake the rites and tenets of their ancestors, and to embrace the doctrine and 
 worship of the Romish church. At length the emperor became so exasperated 
 at the arrogant and violent proceedings of the patriarch in subverting the es- 
 tablished customs of the empire, for the purpose of confirming the pope's au- 
 thority, especially in imposing celibacy on some, and requiring divorce 01 others, 
 who had married more than one wife, that he annulled the orders formerly given 
 in favor of popery, banished the missionaries out of his dominions, and treated 
 
 Knowl. p. 22. 
 
 Thus have the Jesuits done in every country, and this will they do 
 first ingratiate themselves with the people, and when they think 
 they are secure of their object, they will proceed to subvert the gov- 
 ernment : for they are sworn and sold to the pope forever. 
 
 The gentleman says, We are both foreigners ; indicating that we 
 have equal rights and privileges. I did not use .that terra in an invi- 
 dious sense, when speaking of my willingness to receive foreigners. 
 Nor do I oppose the principles of my opponent, because of their hos- 
 tility to Protestants only : but because of their hostility to Roman 
 Catholics. It is from my views of the politica 1 , and religious bear- 
 ings, the temporal and the eternal consequences of the system, that 1 
 expose and oppose it. As a philanthropist, I am rpposed to the papal 
 empire, whether at home or abroad in Europe or America. 
 
 But although politically considered, in one sense, we both may be 
 called foreigners ; yet, we are not foreigners in the same sense. I 
 claim a very intimate relation with the Protestant family. I am one 
 of that family. It was then my family, that first settled this country. 
 The bishop's family settled Roman Catholic America. He is a for- 
 eigner here, as I would be a foreigner in Mexico or South America. I 
 belong to the persecuted he to the persecutors of that family. 
 
 In the next place, I never took but one oath of allegiance. I never 
 fow?.A to support but one political constitution. My opponent first
 
 334 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 swore to America and then to Rome. He is bound to a foreign | rince 
 I am not. If that prince should reward him for any service with a 
 Cardinal's cap, he might he commanded away to Rome next week. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. No, I will not leave this country. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. The gentleman is under the " Holy Lord the 
 pope." I am not a foreigner in this sense. 
 
 But still better, I am the father of a family : my children are nativft 
 Americans : and through these I am more a kin to the great Ameri- 
 can family than he ever can be. Without perjury or apostacy from 
 his office, he can never have a wife, nor family. He is a stranger to 
 those near and holy relations. He has no country no home. H 
 lives and he must die under the command of foreign superiors; and 
 they may, by authority or promotion, remove him to Europe or Asia at 
 pleasure. For these and other reasons I am identified with Protestant 
 America, and claim a relation here to which his heart shall ever be a 
 stranger [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 10 o'clock, A. M. 
 BISHOP PURCELL rises 
 
 Another instance of the unfairness with which Catholic principles 
 are represented : another occasion for a holy triumph ! 
 
 That Rhemish Testament, from which the gentleman has just now 
 read, was never sanctioned by the Catholic church. It was published 
 by a caucus of parsons in New York, (whose names are prefixed to it,) 
 for the express purpose of vilifying the faith, and outraging the feel- 
 ings of Catholics ! And this is called a Catholic bible ! Good God ! 
 whither has justice fled 1 Archbishop Murray, of Dublin, has lately, 
 in the most solemn manner, condemned these notes. They are not to 
 be found in the Catholic bible, used in this or in any other country. I 
 am laboring to inspire my opponent with sentiments of self-respect; 
 and assure him anew, that " evil communication corrupts good man- 
 ners," The occasion called for original documents, candid statements, 
 and reputable authorities ; but, instead of these, the public are mocked 
 by my friend with spurious, garbled extracts, which a dignified con- 
 troversialist would have treated with contempt. We repudiate the 
 notes, which Protestants have appended, for us, to this bible. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. Produce another. 
 
 BISHOP PUBCELL.J I will. Beheld it. Here is the bible to be 
 found in every book-store, where Catholic vvorks are for sale. Here 
 is Luke, chap. ix. 55 ! Not a word of it there! (Holds it opened 
 towards the audience, and towards MR. CAMPBELL.) 
 
 You perceive, that I have granted my opporr.-nt^ y\\ the extra time 
 he chose to occupy, to explain away, if he could, ihe mis-translation 
 (to call it by the very mildest name) of Liguori ; and he has just left 
 it where he found it, in the mire of infamy ! The edition v.liich I ex 
 hibit, was published in the very year and the very place with the edi- 
 tion, from which Mr. Smith pretends to have quoted. You have 
 heard Mr. Kinmont. 
 
 The gentleman has cited the words of Christ, " Do this in cornmem 
 oration of me," against the real presence. This is all I wanted, to 
 complete my argument. Here is the answer : 
 
 " After haviu<r proposed the sentiments of the church upon these words," tins is 
 my body," we most tell what she thinks of these others, which Christ adHf.l :" da 
 this in memory of me." It is clear that the intention of the Son of God is to
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 335 
 
 oblige us by these words to remember the death which he suffered for our saket; 
 and St. Paul concludes, from these same words, that we announce, in this myste- 
 ry, the death of the Lord. But it must not be imagined that this remembrance 
 of his death, excludes the real presence of his body; on the contrary, by only 
 considering what has been just now explained, it will fully appear that this com- 
 memoration is founded upon the real presence. For as the Jews, in eating their 
 peace offerings, remembered that they had been sacrificed for them, so we, in 
 eating the flesh of Jesus Christ, our victim, should remember that he had beeu 
 immolated for us. It is therefore this same flesh eaten by the faithful, which not 
 only awakes in us the memory of his immolation, but which confirms to us the 
 truth of it. And far from being able to say that this solemn comraem jration 
 which Jesus Christ orders us to make, excludes the presence of the fleh, it is 
 visible, on the contrary, that this tender recollection, which he wills we should 
 have of him, in the holy communion, as immolated for us, is founded upon the 
 real receiving of this same flesh ; it being surely impossible to forget, that it is for 
 us he hath given his body in sacrifice, when we see that he gives us still every 
 day this victim for our food." 
 
 I now come to the subject of purgatory, which my friend calls the 
 lever of the pope, to raise the world. I should be glad to see the 
 pope raise the world in any way. If he has not the power to raise 
 mortals to the skies, he, at least, wants the will to pull men or angels 
 down. The doctrine of purgatory can be proved by a few plain texts. 
 The first is from 3d Machabees, xii. 42; where we read, that the val- 
 iant Machabeus sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem, 
 for sacrifice, to be offered for the souls of the dead. " It is, therefore, 
 says the scripture, a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead, 
 that they may be loosed from their sins" 
 
 My friend will say, the book of Machabees is not canonical. But, 
 is it not, as Du Pin would say, very ill done of him, to reject a book 
 of scripture, because it pinches him. This is a fine way of confuting 
 Catholics : to mutilate the scripture when it favors our doctrine ; to 
 believe our enemies, when they misrepresent it; and to attribute to, 
 and force upon us, doctrines which we do not profess. 
 
 The books of the Machabees are to be found in the Codex Alexan- 
 drinus, and in all the approved bibles of the Catholic church, from the 
 beginning. Why tear them, at this late day, from the canon ? Be- 
 sides, they are, at least, authentic history, and, as such, faithful rec- 
 ords of the belief of the only people who, at the time when they were 
 written, professed the true faith. 
 
 Jesus Christ says, that there is a blasphemy against the Spirit; 
 which is a sin that will not be forgiven, neither in this world, nor in 
 that which is to come. (Matt. xii. 32.) These words clearly imply 
 that some sins will 'be forgiven in the world to come. Where ? Not 
 in heaven, which " nothing defiled can enter;" net in hell, for out of 
 hell there is no redemption. What is that plars, called Abraham's 
 bosom, on which Lazarus reposed, until heaven was opened to the 
 souls of men, by the death of Jesus Christ ] Was it heaven, or hell, 
 or that intermediate place or state, which Catholics call by the name 
 of purgatory ? It is necessarily the latter : apart from the suffering of 
 sense by purifying fire, it would be a state of mental or spiritual suf- 
 fering : as it was one of separation from God, whose beauty the soul, 
 released from the prison of the body, and the darkness of sin and ig- 
 norance, so clearly discerns, and so ardently desires to enjoy. The 
 Savior tells us to be reconciled quickly with our adversary, while we 
 are in the way : lest we be delivered over to the judge, and cast into 
 pns MI, whence we shall not be released, until we shall have paid the
 
 336 DEBATE ON THK 
 
 last farthing. (Matt. v. 26.) What prison is this? What place of 
 sorrowful detention on the way to heavenly glory ? Neither heaven, 
 nor the abode of everlasting torments : consequently, purgatory. 
 
 " Christ died for our s*';w," says St. Peter, (1st Epist. iii. 18,) "be- 
 ing put to death in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit .- tn which also 
 coming, he preached to those spirits that were in prison." This is the 
 place, of which it is said, in the apostles' creed, " He descended into 
 hell ,-" which was surely not the hell of the damned, but that tempo 
 rary hell, or hades, or purgatory, to whose inmates he announced tht 
 joyful tidings of their deliverance, where the first and the second 
 Adam met, the type and reality. What is the meaning of the univer- 
 sally prevalent practice, of which St. Paul speaks, of performing 
 pious works, called baptisms for the oead : " Else what shall they dc 
 who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all. Why are they 
 (hen baptized for them .?" (1st Cor. xv. 23.) 
 
 " Hence, the council of Trent teaches: "That there is a purgatory, and tha 
 the souls detained there, are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and particu- 
 larly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar." 
 
 St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Eusebius, St. Epiphanius, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, St. 
 Augustine, and several other ancieut fathers and writers, demonstrate, that the 
 doctrine of the church was always, and is now the same, as that which was de- 
 fined by the council of Trent, with respect both to prayers for the dead, and an 
 intermediate state, which we call purgatory. How express is the authority of 
 the last named father, where he says: "through the prayers and sacrifices otthe 
 church and alms-deeds, God deals more mercifully with the departed than their 
 sins deserve." Serin. 172, Enchirid. cap. 109, 110. 
 
 St. Chrysostom, who flourished within three hundred years of the age of the 
 apostles, and must be admitted as an unexceptionable witness of their doctrine 
 and practice, write? as follows: "It was not without good reason ordained by 
 the apostles, that mention should be made of the dead in the tremendous mys- 
 teries, because they knew well that these would receive great benefit from it." 
 In Cap. I. Philip. Horn. 3. Tertullian, who lived in the age next to that of the 
 apostles, speaking of a pious widow, says: " She prays for the soul of her hus- 
 band, and begs refreshment for him." L. De Monogam. c. 10. St. Cyprian, 
 who lived in the following- age. says: " It is one thing to be waiting for pardon; 
 another to attain to glory: one thing to be sent to prison, not to go from thence 
 till the last farthing is paid; another to receive immediately the reward of faith 
 and virtue: one thing to suffer lengthened torments for sin, and to be chastised 
 and purified for a long time in that fire; another to have cleansed away all sin 
 by suffering." S. Cypr. L. 4. Ep. 2. 
 
 The doctrine of the oriental churches agrees with that of the Catholic church, 
 in the only two points defined by her, namely, as to there being a middle state, 
 which we call purgatory, and as to the souls.'detained in it, being- helped by the 
 prayers of the living faithful. True it is, they do not generally believe, that 
 these souls are punished by a material fire; but neither does the Catholic church 
 require a belief of this opinion. On some occasions, Luther admits of purgatory, 
 s an article founded on scripture. Melancthon confesses that the ancients pray- 
 ed for the dead, and says ihat the Lutherans do not find fault with it. Calvin 
 intimates, that the souls of all the justare detained in Abraham's bosom until the 
 day of judgment. In the first liturgy of the church of England, there is an ex 
 pr^.ss prayer for the departed, that " God would grant them mercy and everlast- 
 ing peace." Collier's Eccl. Hist. Vol. II. p. 257. 
 
 Bishops Andrews, Usher, Montague, Taylor, Forbes. Sheldon, Barrow of S* 
 Asaph's, and Blandford, all believed that the dead ougtit to be prayed for. To 
 these, I may add, the religious Dr. Johnson, whose published Meditations prove, 
 that he constantly prayed for his deceased wife." 
 
 The Universalists make hell a purgatory. 
 
 The notion, that this doctrine fills the pope's coffers with gold, is 
 too ridiculous to be refuted! Every Catholic knows its absurdity. 
 As to the intention of the priest, about which the gentleman has found
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION ' 337 
 
 so much to say, that is no difficulty. How do we judge of the inten- 
 tion ] Simply, by the act, the surest evidence of its existence. Can 
 we ask if a man has any intention to eat his dinner, when we see him, 
 sit down to table, take his knife and fork, use them, and eat till he is 
 filled ; so when we see the priest does what every priest does, and 
 the faithful people -know that he ought to do, we have the best evi- 
 dence of his intention. Besides, what motive could he have for such 
 a gratuitous violation of the law of God and profanation of a sacra- 
 ment. Nemo repente pessimus is an old and a true maxim. He would 
 fall into other excesses, first, and be suspended God will not aban- 
 don his church ; and the sincere Christian will always be rewarded by 
 him, according to his deserts. No man goes suddenly, &c. see Secreta 
 Monita. It was placed invidiously among the rubbish by the enemies 
 of the Jesuits, if found amid the ruins of their house, as the whole 
 society repudiated it. 
 
 Every learned and sound critic, who is at all honorable, denounces 
 the imposition It is an old trick. 
 
 Ovid in his 13th book, verse 59, 60, suggests the idea, in speak- 
 ing of Ulysses' treachery, when he first had gold hid in the tent of 
 Palamedes and then denounced him for having been bribed by the 
 enemies of Greece. 
 
 " I-'irtumque probarit 
 " Criiwn, tt ostendit quod jam pnvfotlerat anruni." 
 
 Shall I invent calumnies, when run out of proof of any man's dishon- 
 esty ? God forbid ! What virtuous and immaculate family may not be 
 thus assailed ? And the more virtuous and honorable they are, the 
 more will they be disconcerted and overwhelmed, for the moment; 
 but the more complete will be their own vindication and their slander- 
 ers' disgrace in the end. 
 
 The gentleman cannot get over what he said of Washington and 
 our Revolutionary heroes, " the fatal shaft is sticking in his side." 
 
 God has given to the people, neither too much, nor too little power. 
 He lias given them no spiritual authority ; for as Jesus Christ said to 
 his apostles, so may the priest say to his flock : " You have not cho- 
 sen me" " No one durst assume the office of priest, but he that is call- 
 ed to it, as Jlaron was" and he was not called by the people. In 
 the Catholic church we solemnly appeal to the people for testimony 
 for, or against, a candidate for holy orders. God has given the peo- 
 ple reasonable power, in temporal matters, and revolutions have too 
 often shown their evils and calamities, in the most horrid and brutal 
 excesses and the loss of innumerable lives. This is an awful penalty 
 for the rash exercise of temporal power on the part of the people. Our 
 own revolution was, perhaps, the calmest, toe most temperate, the 
 least abused for evil purposes by wicked man, because we had 
 Washington and kindred spirits to direct the storm. These, my wor- 
 thy friend calls perjurers ! As God has restricted the people, he has 
 also restricted their rulers, in their exercise of power. How many 
 terrible lessons have not kings been taught, for its abuse. Why can- 
 not nations unite to select a common umpire ; to whom all disputes 
 should be referred, and thus the crimes of kings, and revolution, 
 with all its accompanying horrors, by the people, extinguished in the 
 bud. 
 
 I do not undertake to defend the popes in their use of the deposing 
 power and were my voice, at this moment, ringing in the Vatican, 
 2 D 22
 
 338 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 instead of the Baptist church. Sycamore street, Cincinnair, I shotiitt 
 not be reproved. There are in the religious, as well as in the spin 
 tual world, two forces, the centripetal, and the centrifugal. The see 
 of Rome is as the sun and centre of the system, to which all the pla- 
 nets, revolving in beauteous harmony, tend. We bless, we love, we seek 
 with ardor, by a kind of religious instinct, strong as the law s of gravita- 
 tion, this common centre, which gives us all, our proper impetus and 
 coherency. But like the planets, we are not absorbed by it. We 
 know its excellence, its usefulness, its destination, its limits* 
 
 Now, to show r you what our sentiments are,, with regard to the tem- 
 poral power of the pope, here is a standard work, the identical text- 
 book of theology, which I studied in Paris many years ago. The au- 
 thor is still living, and instead of being rebuked for what I am going 
 to say, he has, on the contrary r been made -bishop of Maus, in France, 
 His name is Bouvier, and "he is as pious a Christian as he is a sound 
 divine. I read you evidence from scripture, tradition and reason, in 
 favor of the doctrine which is the biuden of the proposition, viz. that 
 " the pope has no right, direct, or indirect, by any divine commission, 
 to the temporalities of kings or other Christians." When was the 
 deposing power first claimed by the pope? Ecclesiastical history 
 answers, in the 10th century. Then by the rule which I have alrea- 
 dy laid down, it is no part of Catholic doctrine. It came a thousand 
 years too late. 
 
 "Proposition. That the Roman Pontiff dors not possess,, by divine right, any 
 power, either direct or indirect* over the temporalities of kings, or other Chris- 
 tians." This proposition is proved 1st, from the sacred scripture: "Jit the fh~ 
 ther sent me, I also send you, (John xx. 21.) Tlie Son of man hath not whert 
 to lay his head, (Mat. riii. 20.) Who hath made, me a judge, or a divider over 
 you?" (Luke xii. 14.) Hence we may reason thus. The sovereign Pontiff rant 
 have no authority over the temporal goods of men by divine right, unfess it be 
 granted to him by Christ, but he has received no such power from Christ, for 
 Christ gave to no man a power, which, he himseif, when on earth, did not pos- 
 sess; but Christ when on earth possessed no such power, relating to temporal mat- 
 ters, as appears both from his poverty, and from these words of his, " who hath 
 made me a judge or a divider over you." Therefore the Roman Pontiff does not 
 possess, by divine authority, any power, &c. 
 
 Besides, Christ expressly declared that he was a king, but at the same time, he 
 positively denied that his kingdom was of this world, (John xviii. 36.) For this 
 purpose I came into the world, he says, that I might bear testimony to the truth: 
 in another place, he ordered to give to Ccesar the things that belong to Ccesar, 
 (Mat. xxii. 21.) By a miracle, he caused the stater to be foond in the mouth of a 
 fish, that the tribute might be paid for himself and Peter, (Matt. xvii. 27;) and* 
 surely he could not shew, in More express terms, that he did not vrish to exer- 
 cise any temporal authority. Furthermore, when he sent his apostles, he by no- 
 means, spoke to them, concerning temporal affairs, or any political authority, 
 but only of the Keys of the kingdom of heaven* and the power of binding and 
 loosing-; be ordered that, going through the entire worftf, they would teach 
 these things which he commanded them; he announced to them many trilntlo 
 irons of every sort, and even death; he commanded them, to advise and reprove 
 those who transgress, but that they should not punish them^unless 6y spirilual' 
 pain3: If he will not hear the church, says he* let him be to thee, as the heathen 
 and the publican, (Matt, xviii, 17.): he that believeth not, shall be condemned, 
 (Mark xvi. 16.) The apostles, in like manner, far from exercising any tempo- 
 ral power, on the contrary, strongly recommended obedience and respect to all 
 Pagan princes and persecutors, and rulers sent by them. 
 
 It can be proved, 2nd. from tradition. We would be tedious, were we to re- 
 hearse all the testimonies of Fathers, Doctors and chief bishops, who by thei* 
 word and example clearly taught, that the civil power was entirely indepeD- 
 dent of the ecclesiastical. 
 
 TeV.ulliaD in his Apologetic, chap. 30, sayv. " They, (the Christians? kuow
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 339 
 
 tvho hath given power to emperors they know that it was God, alone, in 
 
 wiiu.-r [Miner tht y are, to whom, they are second, and after whom they are first 
 .......an emperor has his authority, from him by whom he was created man. 
 
 Detore being emperor. He receives power from him, from whom also he receiv- 
 ed the breuth of life IVe pray far all emperors." All Christians, imbued with 
 
 this doctrine, opposed the arms of patience alone, to the most unjust and 
 most cruel tortures, for more than three hundred years. 
 
 Osius, bishop of Cordova, writes thus to the emperor Constantins, who favor- 
 ed the Arians. " Do you not interfere with ecclesiastical matters," as already 
 quoted. 
 
 Pope Ge.asius, in his epistle 8th to Anastasius, a violent enemy of Catholics, 
 say, There are two things, O emperor Augustus, by which principally, thit 
 world is governed, the sacred authority of the popes, and the authority of kings. 
 (La'^be torn. 4. page 1122.) This pope, therefore, considered that each power 
 was independent of the other. 
 
 It can be proved, 3d. By theological reasoning. 1. That opinion ought to be 
 rejected, which was entirely unheard of during the ten first ages; but that opin- 
 ion which holds that the chief bishop has any just.right evenlndirect, over the 
 temporal possessions of princes, or other Christians, was, by no means, heard of. 
 during the ten first ages, to wit, down to the time of Gregory VII. who in the year 
 1080, attempted to depose Henry IV. and disturbed the peace of the entire world, 
 by the assertion of this novel right. Therefore that opinion should be rejected, &c. 
 
 2. That opinion should be entirely rejected which would occasion most 
 grievous evils, but the opinion which we oppose, gives, &c. 1. It renders harmo- 
 ny between the priesthood, and the sovereign power, impossible. 2. It would 
 prevent infidel princes from embracing the Christian religion, and heretics from 
 returning to the true church. 3. It would aflbrd a necessary occasion for con- 
 tinual wars, if it were practised, which, experience has already too clearly shewn. 
 Therefore, it should be entirely rejected, &c. <fcc. &c. 
 
 Now see here the scholastic method of proving propositions, and 
 an admirable one it is. We say 1st, scripture teaches it, 2nd, anti- 
 quity corroborates it, 3d, reason confirms it. That is the method 
 we follow, in all our schools. This is the solid, and irrefutable man- 
 ner in which this proposition is laid down and established. Does this 
 look like submitting to the dictation of the pope in temporal matters? 
 Did the English Catholics obey the pretended absolution bull'? Did 
 not Catholics under arms, and with arms, as in the case of Julius II. 
 resist their acknowledged, and in his proper sphere, respected Pon 
 tiff? Did they not tie his hands while they kissed his feet? 
 
 Waddington tells us that when Louis XII. of France quarreled 
 with the pope, he called a council of bishops at Tours, and proposed 
 the question, whe'ther he could detain the pope, as his prisoner, on an 
 occasion, which he described. They gave an affirmative answer 
 This, in addition to what I have said, shows how the distinction of 
 power, and of rights, was understood at that period, and every epoch, 
 back to the apostolic ages. 
 
 My friend asks for a disclaimer of these pretensions, on the part 
 of the pope. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. Not by the pope, but by the councils. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. The general councils never made the recogni 
 tion of this power, an article of faith; why, then, should they dis- 
 claim it? 
 
 Here is what pope Innocent III. said. His account of this aflfajr 
 is very curious. It is, indeed, a strong disclaimer, and every word 
 deserves to be matuiely weighed. 
 
 Cum rex superiorem in temporalibus minime recognoscat, sine juris alterius 
 Icfsione in to se jurisdiction! nostnv subjirtre potuit, in quo vjderHur aliquibus, 
 
 3uod perseipsum, non tanquam pater cum filiis, sed tanqiiam princens rum ub- 
 itis potuit dispensa-e. Regi igitur grati'am fecimus requisiti: quod non soluui
 
 340 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 in Eccltsiae patrimoniu, super quo plenam in temporalibus gerimus poteslBtetn. 
 veruin etiam in aliis regionibus, certis causisinspectis, temporalemjun.*uictioneni 
 casualiter exercemus. JVon quodalieno juri prtejudicare velimus, vel pottstatem 
 nobis indebitani usurpare, cum non ignoramus Christum in evangelio respondUse j 
 redite, quaesuntCajsaris, Cajsari, et qu;e sunt Dei, Deo. Propter quoopostula- 
 tus ut hxreditatem divideret inter duos : quis, inquit, constituit mejudictm inter 
 vos? Sed quia in Deuteronomio contintter, si difficile et ambiguum apud te 
 judicium esse perspexeris, 'Surge et ascende ad locum, quern eligit Dominus 
 "Deus tuus, <fcc. Liber V. Epist 12. Innocent III. 
 
 Since the King by no means recognizes a superior in temporal authority, he 
 could submit to our jurisdiction without infringing upon the right of another, 
 in which it seems to some, that he could dispense, not as a father with his children 
 Uutasa prince with his subjects ; therefore we granted the King what was re- 
 quisite, because we not only exercise a temporal power, in crrtaincages, in the 
 patrimony of the church, over which we act with full authority in temporalities, 
 but also in other districts, certain matters being considered on : Not that we 
 wish to determine prematurely of another's right, or usurp a power not due to 
 us : since we are not ignorant of what Christ has said in the gospel. On account 
 of which he was asked to divide an inheritance between two, who, savs he, has 
 appointed me judge between ye 1 But that it is written in Deuteronomy, if' 
 you find a difficult and doubtful case, rise and repair to the place, which the 
 Lord your God has chosen, &c. B. V'. E. 12. Innocent III. 
 
 Here the pope, himself, quotes scripture and precedent, against 
 the assumption of such power. Next behold the testimony of a 
 particular council, the doctrine of the ancient Fathers, of an eminent 
 divine, the celebrated Arthur O'Leary, on the matter before us, and 
 on persecution for conscience sake. 
 
 The Council of Toledo forbids the use of violence to enforce belief: "Because," 
 add the fathers, "God shows mercy to whom he thinks fit ; and hardens whom 
 he pleases." " Praecipit sancta synodus nemini demceps ad credendum vim in- 
 ferre. Cui enini Deus vult, miseretur ; et quern vult, indurat."* And the 
 council of Lateran, under Pope Alexander the third, acknowledges, that the 
 church rtjects bloody executions on the score of religion, which proves to dem- 
 onstration, that the canon charged to the fourth council of Lateran, under Inno- 
 cent the third, in which canon, " the secular powers are addressed to take an 
 oath, to exterminate all heretics out of their territories, and in case of refusal, to 
 have their subjects absolved from their allegiance, and the lands of the heretics 
 to be seized by the Catholics," &c. is spurious. Collyer, the Protestant his- 
 torian, in his fifth volume of Ecclesiastical History, acknowledges that it is not 
 found in any copy, coeval with the council. Some hundred years after the 
 council, it was produced to light by a German. And we know full well, thatat 
 that time, several spurious pieces were produced, to serve the purposes of 
 rancor. 
 
 Were even such a decree, or any other of a similar nature, genuine, theCath- 
 olics^would reject them, without any breach of faith ; because the church has 
 no power over life, limb, the rights of sovereigns, the property of individuals, 
 or any temporal concern whatsoever. Her bishops, then, whether separately, 
 or in a collective body, cannot graft any such power into their spiritual commis- 
 sion. They would act in anextrajudicial manner, and beyond the limits of their 
 sphere. This I have proved in my remarks on Mr. Wesley's letter, and elsewhere. 
 
 Far from countenancing cruelty, death and oppression, " the spirit of tha 
 church was, in such a manner, the spirit of meekness and charity, that she pre- 
 vented, as much as in her power, the death, of criminals, and even of her most 
 cruel enemies," says Fleury. " You have seen how the lives of the murderers 
 of the martyrs ot Armenia were saved ; and St. Austin's effort to preserve the 
 Donatists, (who had exercised such cruelties against the Catholics) from the 
 rigor of the imperial laws. You have seen how much the church detested the 
 indiscreet zeal of those bishops, who prosecuted the beresiarch Priscillian to 
 death. 
 
 In general, the church saved the lives of all criminals, as far as she had power. 
 St. Augustine accounts for this conduct, in his letter to Macedonius, where w 
 
 * Cap de Judjeis, dist. 45.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLrC KELIGIOX. 341 
 
 read that the church wished there were no pains in this life, but of the healing 
 kind, to destroy, not man, but sin, and to preserve the sinner from eternal tor 
 ments."* If, in after ages, some popes and bishops deviated from this plan of 
 meekness and moderation, their conduct should not involve a consequence inju- 
 rious to the principles of the Catholic church, which condemns such proceedings. 
 The religion of Catholics and Protestants condemns frauds, fornications, drunk- 
 enness, revenge, duelling, perjury, &c. Some of their relaxed and impious 
 writers have even attempted, not only to palliate, but even to apologize for such 
 disorders. The children of the Christian religion daily practise them, is th 
 Christian religion accountable for the breach of her own laws? 
 
 My friend made some display, on the persecuting canon of the coun- 
 cil of Lateran, and yet Collyer, a Protestant historian, in the 5th vo- 
 lume of his ecclesiastical history, pronounces it spurious ! He ac- 
 knowledges that it is not found in the copy of the decrees coeval with 
 the council ; that it was manufactured by the Germans, hundred*, of 
 years afterwards ; and that there were several spurious documents 
 manufactured about the same time. Now hear a distinguished pre- 
 late of our church, Dr. England, in his speech before congress, in 
 which he leaves nothing important unsaid on this topic. I am happy 
 to incorporate his eloquent remarks in this debate. 
 
 " A political difficulty has been sometimes raised here. If this infallible tribu- 
 nal which you profess yourselves bound to obey, should command you to over- 
 turn our government, and tell you that it is the will of God to have it new model- 
 ed, will you be bound to obey? And how then can we consider those men to 
 be good citizens, who profess to owe obedience to a foreign authority, to an au- 
 thority not recognized in our constitution; to an authority which has excommu- 
 nicated and deposed sovereigns, and which has absolved subjects and citizens 
 from their bond of allegiance. 
 
 Our answer to this is extremely simple and very plain, it is, that we would not 
 be bound to obey it; that we recognize no such authority. I would not allow 
 to the pope or to any bishop of our church, outside this Union, the smallest in- 
 terference with the humblest vote at our most insignificant balloting box. He 
 has no right to such interference. You must, from the view which I have taken, 
 see the. plain distinction between spiritual authority, and a right to interfere in 
 the regulation of human government or civil concerns. You have in your con- 
 stitution wisely kept them distinct and separate. It will be wisdom and prudence 
 and safety to continue the separation. Your constitution says that Congress shall 
 have no power to restrict the free exercise of religion. Suppose your digni 
 fied body to-morrow attempted to restrict me in the exercise of that right; though 
 the law, as it would be called, should pass your two houses and obtain the signa- 
 ture of the president, I would not obey it," because it would be no law. it would 
 be an usurpation: for you cannot make a law in violation of your constitution; 
 you have no power in such a case. So, if that tribunal which is established by 
 the Creator to testify to me what he has revealed, and to make the necessary 
 regulations of discipline for the government of the church, shall presume to go 
 beyond that boundary which circumscribes its power, its acts are invalid, my 
 rights are not to be destroyed by its usurpation, and there is no principle of my 
 creed which prevents my using my natural right of proper resistance to any tyran- 
 nical usurpation. You have no power to interfere with my religious rights, the 
 tribunal of the church has no power to interfere with my civil rights. It is a 
 duty which every good man ought to discharge for his own, and for the public 
 benefit, to resist any encroachment upon either. We do not believe that God 
 gave to the church any power to interfere with our civil rights or ourcivil concerns. 
 Christ our Lord refused to interfere in the division of the inheritance between two 
 brothers, one of whom requested that interference. The civil tribunals of Judea 
 were vested with sufficient authority for that purpose, and he did not transfer it 
 to his apostles. It must hence be apparent that any idea of the Roman Catholics of 
 those republics being in any way under the influence of any foreign ecclesiastical 
 power, or indeed of anv church authority in the exercise of their civil rights, ii 
 serious mistake. There is no class of our fellow citizens more free to think 
 
 * Fleury, Discours, 2. No 9. 
 
 2p3
 
 342 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and to act for themselves on the subject of our rights than we are, and I believe 
 there is not any portion of the, American family more jealous of foreign influence 
 or more ready to resist it. We have brethren of our church in every part of the 
 globe, under every form of government. This is a subject upon which each of us 
 is'free to act as he thinks proper. We know of no tribunal in our church which 
 can interfere in our proceedings as citizens. Our ecclesiastical authority existed 
 before our constitution, is not affected, by it; there is not in the world a consti- 
 tution which it does not precede, with which it could not co-exist; it has seen 
 nations perish, dynasties decay, empires prostrate; it has co-existed with all, it 
 has survived them all, it is not dependent upon any one of them; they may still 
 change, and it will still continue. 
 
 We now come to examine what are called the persecuting laws of our church 
 In the year 1215, at the council of Lateran, certain heresies were condemned 
 by the first canon; and amongst other things this canon recites as Catholic faith 
 in opposition to the errors of those whom it condemned, that there was but one 
 God the Creator of all things, of spirits as well as bodies; the author of the Old 
 Testament and of the Mosaic dispensation, equally as of the ]\ T ew Testamen* 
 and of the Christian dispensation; that he created not only the good angels 
 but also the devil and the bad angels, originally corning good from his hand, and 
 becoming wicked by their own malice, &c. In its third canon it excommunicates 
 those heretics, and declares them to be separated from the body of the church 
 Then follows a direction, that the heretics so condemned, are to be given up to 
 the secular powers, or to their bailiffs, to be duly punished. This direction con 
 tinues to require of all bishops and others having authority, to make due search 
 within their several districts for those heretics, and if they will not be induced 
 to retract their errors, desires that they should be delivered over to be punished. 
 There is an injunction then to all temporal lords to cleanse their dominions by 
 exterminating those heretics: and if they will not, within a year from having 
 been so admonished by the church, cleanse their lands of this heretical Jilth 
 they shall be deprived if they have superior lords, and if they be superior lords 
 and be negligent, it shall be the duty of the metropolitan and his provincial 
 bishops to excommunicate them, and if any one of those lords paramount so ex- 
 communicated for this negligence shall continue during twelve months under th* 
 excommunication, the metropolitan shall certify the same to the pope, who, find- 
 ing admonition useless, shall depose this prince, and absolve his subjects from 
 their oaths of fealty, and deliver the territory over to Catholics, who having ex- 
 terminated the heretics shall remain in peaceable possession. 
 
 This is the most formidable evidence adduced against the position which I 
 have laid down, that it is not a doctrine of our church, that we are bound to 
 persecute those who differ from us in belief. I trust that I shall not occupy 
 very much of your time in showing, that this enactment does not in any way 
 weaken that assertion. I shall do so, by satisfying you that this is a special law 
 for a particular case; and also by convincing you that it is not a canon of the'church 
 respecting any of those points in which we admit her infallibility; nor is it a 
 canon of the church. 
 
 The doctrines condemned in this first canon originated in Syria, touched lightly 
 at the islands of the Archipelago, settled down in Bulgaria, and spread into the 
 "south of Europe, but were principally received in the vicinity of Albi, in France. 
 The persons condemned held the Manichean principle of there being two crea- 
 tors of the universe; one a good being, the author of the New Testament, the 
 creator of good angels, and generally of spiritual essence; the other an evil be- 
 ing, the creator of bodies, the author of the Mosaic dispensation, and generally 
 of the Old Testament. They stated that marriage was unlawful, and co-opera- 
 tion with the principle of evil was criminal. The consequences to society were 
 of the very worst description, immoral, dismal, and desolating. The church 
 examined the doctrine, condemned it as heretical, and cut oft those who held or 
 abetted it, from her communion. Here, according to the principles which I have 
 maintained before you, her power ended. Beyond this we claim no authority: 
 the church, by divine right, we say, infallibly testifies what doctrines Christ has 
 revealed, and by the same right, in the same manner, decides that what rim Ira- 
 diets this revelation is erroneous: but she has no divine authority to make ;i !;>w 
 which shall strip of their property, or consign to the executioner, those whom 
 Bhe convicts of error. The doctrine of our obligation to submit does not extend 
 to force us to submit to an usurpation ; and if the church made a law upon a
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 343 
 
 subject beyond her commission for legislation it would be invalid there would 
 be no proper claim for our obedience: usurpation does not create a right. The 
 council could by right make the doctrinal decision ; but it had no right to make 
 tin- temporal enactment: and where there exists no right to legislate on one 
 side, there is no obligation of obedience on the other. If this was then a canon 
 of the church, it was not one in making which she was acting within her consti- 
 tutional jurisdiction, it was an usurpation of temporal government, and the doc 
 trine of infallibility does not bear upon it. 
 
 Every document respecting this council, the entire of the evidence respecting 
 it, as well as the very mode of framing the enactments, prove that it wasa special 
 law regarding a particular case. The only persons whose errors were con- 
 demned at that council were those whom I have described. The general prin- 
 ciple of legal exposition restraining the application of penal enactments must 
 here have full weight, and will restrain the application of the penalty to the 
 only criminals brought within its view. But the evidence is still more confirmed, 
 by the special words of definite meaning, this, and Jilth, which were specially 
 descriptive of only those persons; the first by its very nature, the second by the 
 nature of their crime; and the continued exposition of the enactment restrained 
 its application to the special case, though frequently attempts had been made 
 by individuals to extend its application, not in virtue of the statute, but in virtue 
 of analogy. It would then be improperly forcing its construction to say that its 
 operation was to be general, as it evidently was made only fora particular case. 
 
 lu viewing the preamble to this council, as well as from our knowledge of 
 history, we discover that this was not merely a council of the church, but it was 
 also a congress of the civilteed world. The state of the times rendered such 
 assemblages not only usual but necessary: and each legislative body did its own 
 business bv its own authority; and very generally the subjects which were de- 
 cided upon by one body in one point of view, came under the consideration of 
 the other assembly in a different point of view, and their separate decisions were 
 engrossed upon a joint record. 
 
 Sometimes they were preserved distinct and separate, but copyists, for their 
 own convenience, brought together ail the articles regarding the same subject, 
 from what source soever they were obtained. Such was precisely the case in 
 the instance before us. There were present on this occasion, by themselves or 
 by their legates, the king of Sicily, emperor elect of the Rouians, the emperor of 
 the east, the king of F ranee, the king of England, the king of Arragon, the king 
 of Jerusalem, the king of Cyprus, several other kings, and lords paramount, so- 
 vereign states, and pnnc.es. Several of the bishops were princes or barons. la 
 the ecclesiastical council, the third canon terminated exactly in one sentence, 
 which was that of the excommunication or separation from the church, of those 
 whom the first canon had condemned, whatever name or names they might as- 
 sume: because they had in several places several appellations, and were con- 
 tinually dividing off and changing names as they separated. The duty and the 
 jurisdiction of the council came to this; and the ancient records give no more 
 as" the portion of its enactments. But the congress of the temporal powers then 
 made the subsequent part as their enactment: and thiN this penal and civil re- 
 gulation was not an art of the council, but an act of the congress : and it is not 
 a canon concerning the doctrine of the church, nor indeed is it by any means 
 a canon, though the copyists have added it to the canon as regarding the very 
 same subject ; and as confessedly the excommunication in the third canon re- 
 garded onlv the special case of those particular heretics, the addition of the 
 penal enactment to this particular canon is confirmatory evidence that i: 
 who added it knew that the penalty in the one case was only co-extensive with 
 the excommunication in the other. 
 
 Having thus seen that this canon of the Council of Lateran was not a doctrinal 
 decision of our church establishing the doctrine of persecution, and command- 
 ing to persecute, but that it was a civil enactment by the temporal poweragainst 
 persons whom they looked upon as criminals, it is more the province of the pol- 
 itician or of the jurist than of the divine to decide upon its propriety. I maj, 
 however, be permitted to sav that in my opinion the existence of civilized socie- 
 ty required its enactment, though no good man can approve of several abuses 
 which were committed under the pretext of its execution, nor can any rational 
 man pretend that because of the existence of a special law for a narticular pur
 
 344 DERATE ON THK 
 
 pose, every case which may he thought analogous to that for which proviefcn 
 was made is to be illegally subjected to those provisions. 
 
 We are now arrived at the place where we may easily find the origin and the 
 extent of the papal power ot deposing sovereigns, and of absolving subjects 
 from their oaths of allegiance. To judge properly of lacts, we must know their 
 special circumstances, not their mere outline. The circumstances of Christen- 
 dom were then widely different from those in which we now are placed. Europe 
 was then underthe feudal system. I have seldom found a writer, not a Catholic, 
 who. in treating of that age and that svstt-in, has been accurate, and who has not 
 done us very serious injustice. But a friend of mine, who is a respectable member 
 of your honorable body, has led me to read Hallam's account of it, and I must 
 say that I have seldom met with so much candor, and, what I call, so much 
 truth. From reading his statement of that system it wilt be plainly seen that 
 there existed amongst the Christian potentates a sort of federation, in which they 
 bound themselves by certain regulations, and to the observance of those they 
 were held not merely by their oaths but by various penalties, sometimes they 
 consented the penalty should be the loss of their station. It was of course ne- 
 cessary to ascertain that the fact existed before its consequences should be declared 
 to follow ; it was also necessary to establish some tribunal to examine and to de- 
 cide as to the existence of the fact itself, and to proclaim that existence. Amongst 
 independent sovereigns there was no superior, and it was natural to fear that 
 mutual jealousy would create great difficulty in selecting a chief; and that what 
 originated in concession might afterwards be claimed as a right. They were 
 however all members of one church, of which the Pope was the head, and, in 
 this respect, their common father : and by universal consent it was regulated 
 that he should examine, ascertain the fact, proclaim it, and declare its conse 
 quences. Thus he did in reality possess the power of deposing monarchs, and 
 of absolving their subjects from oaths of fealty, but only those monarchs who 
 were members of that federation, and in the cases legally provided for, and by 
 their concession, not by divine right, and during the term of that federation and 
 the existence of his commission. He governed the church bv divine right, he 
 deposed ifings and absolved subjects from their allegiance by human concession. 
 I preach the doctrines of my church by divine right, but I preach from this spot 
 not by that right but by the permission of others. 
 
 It is not then a doctrine of our church that the pope has been divinely com- 
 missioned either to depose kings or to interfere with republics, or to absolve 
 the subjects of the former from their allegiance, or interfere with the civil con- 
 cerns of the latter. When the persecuted English Catholics, under Elizabeth, 
 found the pope making an unfounded claim to this right, and upon the shadow 
 of that unfounded right making Inroads upon their national independence, by 
 declaring who should or who should not be their temporal ruler, they well 
 showed how little they regarded his absolving them from their allegiance, for 
 they volunteered their services to protect their liberties, which their Catholic 
 ancestors had labored to establish. And she well knew that a Catholic might 
 safely be entrusted with the admiralty' of her fleet, and that her person was se- 
 cure amongst her disgraeed Catholic nobility and gentry, and their persecuted 
 adherents ; although the Court of Rome had issued its bull of absolution, and 
 some divines were found who endeavored to prove that what originated in vol- 
 untary concession of states and monarchs was derived from divine institution. 
 If then Elizabeth, of whose character I would not wish in this place to express 
 my opinion, was safe amidst those whom she persecuted for their faith, even when 
 be head of theirchurch absolved them from allegiance, and if at such a moment 
 
 ey flocked round her standard to repel Catholic invaders who came with con- 
 secrated banners, and that it is admitted on all hands that in so doing they vio 
 lated no principle of doctrine or of discipline of their church, as we all avow" 
 surely America need not fear for the fidelity of her Catholic citizens, whom she 
 cherishes and whom she receives to her bosom with affection and shelters from the 
 persecution of others. Neither will any person attempt to establish an analogy be- 
 tween our federation and that of feudalism, to argue that the pope can do amongst 
 vis 'vhat he did amongst European potentates under circumstance? widely different. 
 
 My worthy opponent said, that he would only touch on persecution. 
 My friends, persecution had marked me for a victim in my native 
 land, and forced me to seek an Asylum in America, when I was 
 young and friendless ! Persecution is there, in full operation at this
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 345 
 
 rery hour. Scarcely a breeze comes across the ocean, without bring- 
 'ng on its wings, fresh tidings, of blood, shed under Protestant per- 
 secution by ministers of the Protestant faith. 
 
 Widows there kneel in the blood of their own children ; and, because 
 excess of grief has made them maniacs, they drink that blood, and 
 curse the authors of their misery. Is not this true ? Does not the 
 universe know and shudder at it? And having been compelled to 
 flee from intolerance, having fought against it, must we still see the 
 green-eyed monster, trampling upon the vine and fig tree, here, where 
 we had hoped to sit down under their shade, in safety, and in peace, 
 with our brethren of every* denomination 1 Must we still fear the 
 midnight knock at the door, and the domiciliary visit, by a brutal 
 soldiery ? Must the perishing orphans see the bread taken out of 
 their mouths by rapacious parsons, and their mother's cloak (their 
 only covering of a wintry night) distrained, to pay the tithe proctor? 
 Where will you find tyranny like this ? Would this be a better state 
 f things, than what we, in this free country enjoy ! Bigots would 
 blast this glorious prospect. They would proscribe one sect after 
 another. The appetite for blood, they have, even now, evinced, and 
 we know, when once indulged, how hard it is to sate it ! But I must 
 call upon Protestant testimony for the wrongs of Ireland and I will 
 only touch upon the persecution. Taylor, a graduate of Trinity Col- 
 lege, in his history of Ireland, says : 
 
 " It would be a mere waste of words to reprobate this iniquitous law, or ra- 
 ther this violation of all law, human anu divine. No Irish Protestant can pe- 
 ruse its enactments without a blush for the shame thus brought on his religion, 
 when it was thus virtually declared that the reformed system should owe its 
 strength and security, not to the purity of its principles, not to the excellence 
 of its doctrines, but to robbery and oppression, to dissention between father and 
 child, to stimulating one neighbor to seize the fruits of another's industry, to 
 the desecration of a solemn sacrament, by making it a test for office. How can we 
 be surprised that the reformed religion is unpopular in Ireland, when by this 
 and similar laws, a Protestant legislature virtually declared that Protestantism 
 could not be secure unless it entered into alliance with Belial, Mammon and 
 Moloch?" Hist, of Ireland, By W. C. Taylor, Esq. A. B. of Trinity college, 
 Dublin, page 108. V*ol, 2nd. New York edit. 1833. 
 
 Now tell me if the annals of Catholicism can produce any thing 
 like a parallel to this ! After enumerating the most tyrannical laws 
 that Draco, or Dioclecian ever enacted, can we discover more pro- 
 scription more cruelty 1 ? 
 
 My friends, I do not blame the Protestant religion for this. It is 
 the spirit of the country and government; and the shame is, that 
 when Catholic governments have ceased to persecute, Protestant ones 
 continue to do so. 
 
 My friends, were I to consult my own feelings, I should be better 
 pleased to draw a veil over these horrors ; but my opponent made al- 
 lusions to the inquisition, as an argument that, if ever the Catholics 
 became the most numerous, they would make it a part of their system 
 to persecute : as if the same argument, if argument it can be called, 
 would not be equally strong against all the leading churches of Pro- 
 testantism ; and if the gentleman makes any further extracts. I will 
 meet them just in the same way. and condemn both Catholics and 
 Protestants, for that by which they are alike disgraced. Now, as 
 he brings the account of the inquisition before us, and proves it to be 
 the most bloody tyranny, setting- aside all forms of legal procedure 
 &c., I will refer you to Home's history of England, for an inquisi- 
 
 44
 
 34() DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tion equally terrible, and more unjust, under Protestant Englai.d 
 the famous Star-Chamber, where, upon the least suspicion, without 
 proof, the officer was sent to the houses of the most distinguished 
 men, nay even to their beds, and forced them in the dead of night 
 to a prison. Sir Thomas Moore, bishop Fisher, the aged countess of 
 Salisbury, &c. are instances with which I could fill up some horrific 
 pages. 
 
 As to oaths ; the gentleman says that I have taken two which are 
 incompatible with each other. This is not so. My ecclesiastical oath 
 is of a purely spiritual nature. The only- oath of allegiance, of a 
 temporal character, which I have ever taken, was to the United States. 
 These two oaths cannot be incompatible. The heavens and the earth 
 are not more different from one another, than they are. They cannot 
 possibly interfere with each other. Therefore the bishop's oath is. by 
 no means, what the gentleman has represented it. The pope has ab- 
 jured the odious sense which the document is made to bear. It is no 
 sin surely, to swear that we will not kill the pope. Would my friend 
 make it such 1 ' Saving my order' is a clause which the gentleman 
 should have expatiated upon, and our order is forbidden, under the 
 most awful penalties, to shed any one's blood, but our own, if we are 
 called upon to suffer martyrdom, and that of the mystic victim of 
 the altar, as a propitiation for our own sins, and those of the entire 
 world. Persequar was never intended to mean persecute. It alludes 
 to moral, not brute force. The weapons of our warfare are spiritual, 
 not carnal. The Latin word means only to follow up with persever- 
 ing argument, and persuasion, as I am doing this day. Before I took 
 that oath, I read it again and again, and took the decisions of the 
 bishops of America upon it. We all agreed that there was nothing 
 in it contrary to the allegiance due to the United States. 
 
 My friend spoke of Catholics violating their oaths. I would ask 
 if there is a nation that has given such splendid testimony of respect 
 for oaths, as Catholic Ireland ? For 300 years of the bloodiest per- 
 secution that was ever inflicted, they have steadily refused to take 
 an oath which every thing but conscience urged them to take. 
 
 My friends, all this ought to be remembered, not for the gratifica- 
 tion of hostile feelings, but for justice, and as a fair offset, to balance 
 the Spanish Inquisition, which is all the while not Catholic. [Time 
 expired.] 
 
 Half past 11 o'clock, A. M. 
 MR. CAMPBELL rises 
 
 We have, my friends, had matter of debate thrown before us durng 
 the last hour, that would require seven days more to discuss. An 
 ocean instead of a harbor opens to our view. Good policy, however ' 
 Instead of concentrating on the main points, which, above all others, 
 it behooved the bishop to clear up, if, indeed, he had any hopes of being 
 able to defend himself, he gives us a little of every thing, great and 
 small ; present, past, and future. Thirty minutes would not be enough 
 for me to single out, arrange, and state the contrary propositions, to 
 coverall his Tast premises. As the gentleman knows what he can best 
 defend, and what he cannot, and as his time is at his own disposal, I 
 have no right to complain. I proceed, therefore, not to recapitulate 
 my argument, as I expected we both would have done in our last
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 347 
 
 speeches: but to brush the dust off a few of the prominent points, 
 crowded together in his last effort. 
 
 The bishop's denial of the genuineness of this Rhemish Testa'ment v 
 at this time, is exceedingly unfair; and still worse, from whatever mo- 
 tive it may proceed, it is wholly reckless of history and fact. I say it 
 is unfair; because, when near the beginning of the debate, I showed 
 him the Testament, and challenged him to object to it if he had any- 
 thing against it, that it might be settled forthwith, he was silent. I 
 went even farther I asked him for another copy, or edition, of it more 
 correct, if he had one: he was still silent. And now, at the close, he 
 has held up the Douay Bible, without these notes, published long 
 since, not pretending to be the same work, either as to time, place, or 
 circumstance, as proof that this edition of the New Testament is not 
 authentic! But my audience, and the public, will appreciate all this. 
 I do assert, then, and my assertion has as much logic in it as his, that 
 the gentleman has misrepresented this affair that this book is truly 
 what its title page declares it; and that both the text and the notes are 
 as truly Roman Catholic as the Douay Bible. Hear the title: 
 
 "The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; translated out 
 of the Latin Vulgate, diligently compared with the original Greek, and first pub- 
 lished by the English college of Rheims, Anno 1582: with the Original Preface. 
 Arguments, and Tables, Marginal IS'otes and Annotations." 
 
 Again: hear the recommendation of this work by "ministers of the 
 gospel, and other learned persons of various denominations." They 
 say, "This edition contains all the notes of the original edition as pub- 
 lished at Rheims, A. D. 1582." Not a new and amended impression, 
 suppressing the more offensive comments, but the original itself. This 
 recommendation is signed by more than a hundred gentlemen of as 
 much literary and religious reputation as can be found in the U. States. 
 Once more : 
 
 CERTIFICATE. We have compared this New York edition of the Rhemish 
 Testament and Annotations with the first publication of that volume, which was 
 issued at Rheims in 1582; and after examination, we do hereby certify, that the 
 present re-print is an exact and faithful copy of the original work, without 
 abridgment or addition, except that the Latin or a few phrases which were trans- 
 lated by the annotators. and some unimportant expletive words were undesign- 
 edly omitted. The orthography also has been modernized. 
 
 JOHN BRECKINRIDGE. 
 
 WILLIAM C. BROWNLEE, D. D. 
 
 THOMAS DE WITT, D. D. 
 
 DUNCAN DUNHAR. 
 
 ARCHIBALD MACLAY. 
 
 WILLIAM PATTON. 
 
 To all these certificates there are not less than one hundred and thirty 
 names. But the gentleman's calling this authority in question, is in 
 good keeping with his whole course. There is no authority against 
 the church of Rome neither Protestant nor Catholic to be believed, 
 if they say any thing against her. But infidels, and such Protestants 
 as flatter her in her assumptions, are canonical as holy writ ! If the 
 bishop is to be believed, all Protestant historians, theologians, authors, 
 &c. opposed to the Roman assumptions, are liars. In proof and de- 
 monstration of the super-excellency of Protestant principles, and of the 
 debasing, degrading, and enslaving principles of the papacy, I intended 
 to have drawn a full comparison between the Protestant and Catholic 
 parts of Ireland; the Protestant and Catholic countries of Switzer- 
 land between Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Protestant England
 
 348 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 between the United States and the South American States between 
 Protestant and Roman Catholic America. But I cannot now attemp* 
 it ; and much do I regret it : for such a comparison fairly rlrawn, would 
 amount to the most satisfactory demonstration of the political, literary, 
 and moral tendencies of the two systems. Plain, as proof from holy 
 wrik it would thus have appeared, that this superstition, like the touch 
 of the torpedo, lays a benumbing, paralizing, and blighting hand on 
 all within its grasp. 
 
 The gentleman is yet on indulgences and purgatory, when he ought, 
 in reply to my last speech, to have endeavored, if possible, to relieve 
 his cause from imputations the most serious and the most revolting to 
 American ears. I have not thought it important to descant upon the 
 tariff of sins, or to give a tabular view of the prices at which certain 
 sins were rated in gold and silver in the market of indulgences. NOT 
 have I at all inquired why, in this tax-book, for killing a layman a less 
 sum is asked than for simply striking a priest, without breaking the 
 skin. These questions, though capable of solution from authentic docu- 
 ments, are the dreams of purgatory I deem so inferior, and so un- 
 blushingly barefaced impositions, that I prefer matters of more grave 
 concern to this community for the time allotted us. That indulgences 
 are bona fide licenses to commit sin, and not simple absolution for past 
 sins, is as susceptible of proof as that Martin Luther began the Protes- 
 tant reformation. 
 
 The gentleman will not defend *-he popes, he says, in their attempts 
 to exercise supreme political power ; but asks, " Did the kings of the 
 nations ever acquiesce in it?" That kings for centuries received <uid 
 held their crowns at the sovereign pleasure of the popes, is just as ob- 
 vious a historic fact, as that there were popes at all. Sometimtes, in 
 deed, the kings fought against these assumptions, and sometimes they 
 acquiesced. But the ready subordination of the state to the church 
 evinced in the magistrates executing the anathemas of the church, in 
 putting to death those denoted as heretics by the church, shows in what 
 a state of subserviency and pliancy political princes were held by the 
 popes. That is just the very terror of church and state the very 
 supremacy which we fear, and which is so> antipodal to our institutions. 
 
 It is putting heretics or reformers to death, and supporting a hjiman 
 priesthood by the state according to the dictation of the church, which 
 makes that union, or subserviency, so wicked and odious in our estima- 
 tion. And will the gentleman ask, what Roman Catholic state, nation. 
 or prince, ever did such a thing ] ! 
 
 In his counter displays of Roman Catholic doctrine, my friend has 
 not given you the trans-Alpine doctrine. The Cis-Alpine, or Gallican 
 doctors, are not of the old Roman Catholic school. They are almost 
 semi-protestant on those very points on which he has introduced them. 
 They are no evidence against the standard doctrines of that church 
 on these questions. The French Catholics began to stand aloof from 
 the high and haughty pretensions of their trans-montane brethren. 
 They are the most liberal portion of the Roman church, and have, con- 
 sequently, done more for the promotion of science than all the rest of 
 the Catholic world put together. Bishop England gives their views 
 
 I asked for an authentic disclaimer of the attributes of the Roman 
 church, and of those acts and deeds indicative of her tyrannical, op- 
 pressive and persecuting spirit which I have detailed. I ask this still
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 349 
 
 and while I do it in a tone indicative of that earnestness which the 
 occasion requires, I do it in the same benevolence to rny opponent and 
 his party which I felt and expressed at the beginning of this discus- 
 sion. The times and the occasion peremptorily demand it. We know 
 what individual priests and bishops have said against popes and coun- 
 cils, and their proceedings, and against other parts of that system : but 
 these are said for effect ad caplandum vulgus, and will be unsaid by 
 the same individuals, or by others, when occasion requires. I have 
 brought very serious allegations against the Roman Catholic institu- 
 tion, and authorities for them all of them authentic, and most of them 
 never disputed by my opponent. He disclaims these principles, acts 
 and movements : but he disproves not one of them. Nor would the 
 disclaiming of them by all the bishops in America, disprove one of 
 them. The council of Trent has ordained and enjoined all these prin- 
 ciples of implicit and blind obedience, intolerance, proscription, and 
 persecution. No council has since met, and no power but a general 
 council can define a single article of faith, or rule of manners, accord- 
 ing to the declarations of my antagonist. Indeed, the doctrine of the 
 council of Trent must remain immutable and infallible while time en- 
 dures, according to him : for no other general council can possibly 
 contravene it ; and, therefore, while the Roman church exists, she 
 must be, what 1 have sho\vn she was, before and since the council of 
 Trent. 
 
 This council met in a boisterous time. They met to oppose and put 
 down Protestantism. They knew the allegations of Protestants 
 against their doctrine. If then, they could have abandoned those prin- 
 ciples for the sake of either reclaiming or defeating the Lutherans, 
 that was the time to do it. They sat long enough, and debated with 
 zeal enough ; and yet they dare not discuss the papal authority. The 
 pope forbade them to debate his office, jurisdiction, or authority, and 
 they did not attempt it. The pope signed their decrees, and all that was 
 done there was done irrevocably arid forever. The disavowal or the 
 disclaiming of any priest or bishop in the Roman Catholic church, is 
 not worth more, and has no more authority, than mine. It is, therefore, 
 of no value for my learned opponent, or any American prelate to say 
 that he does not approve this or that; or, agree to this or that. They 
 must all submit to, and they will all inculcate on all suitable occa- 
 sions, every decree of the council of Trent. 'Thus did the Jesuits in 
 Abyssinia. They first explained away every thing: but finally ex- 
 plained it back again, and had almost saddled the pope and the coun- 
 cil of Trent forever on those unfortunate Abyssinians. 
 
 I could, had I the time now, from that very history of Ireland from 
 which the gentleman read you an extract, a copy of which I too have 
 lying on the table, I say, I can from this book show that the ancient 
 Christian church of Ireland was subjugated to the church of Rome, by 
 this very species of rhetoric, and that finally the whole island was 
 enslaved to the pope by the same means: for in England, Scotland, 
 Wales, and Ireland, there were Christian churches, ages before the 
 popes of Rome were born. But by this chamelion attribute of becom- 
 ing all things to all men, for a while, she has made all men become 
 what she pleases. 
 
 Thus by degrees under this system, the human spirit is broken, de- 
 and debased, night ensues, and finally, gross darkness covers 
 2 E
 
 350 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the people. Even in Canada since the papacy has gained the ascend- 
 ency, laws have been passed in the provincial assemblies, giving tc 
 school commissioners and grand jurors the privilege of" making their 
 mark, instead if writing their names .'" Nothing can preserve our re- 
 publican institutions but a system of intellectual and mcral culture, 
 accessible to every child born upon our soil or brought to our shores. 
 Unless we thus benevolently co-operate in this great cause of human- 
 ity, this last and best hope of the oppressed of all nations will vanish 
 from the earth, and a new and ghostly despotism shall arise and ex- 
 tend its iron sceptre over this our beloved land. Nothing but intelli- 
 gence anl virtue universally diffused, can save us from this dread ca- 
 tastrophe. In Protestant Prussia, with a Roman Catholic minority, 
 they understand so well the importance and utility of education, and 
 its power to dissipate the darkness of superstition, always tyrannical, 
 that every child is by law compelled to be educated, and that morally 
 as well as intellectually. 
 
 There remains an important point or t%vo yet to be noticed. The 
 gentleman is exceedingly squeamish in his avowals of this oath, which 
 forever binds the Roman priesthood to the court of Rome. He admits, 
 however, that after due consultation or meditation had he took the 
 oath, clauses of which constrain him to " increase and advance the 
 authority of the pope," and to "persecute and oppose heretics and 
 schismatics." He says persequor means not to persecute. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL. It means to follow, and nothing more. 
 
 MR. CAMPBELL. It is a generic term, and means to follow with the 
 sword or faggot, or the hand or foot, only in the way of opposition, 
 however. Sequor is to follow, but persequor is to foHow with ven- 
 geance. 
 
 I have learned this morning that it can be proved under oath that all 
 the bishops in America have taken this oath; and that without equivo- 
 cation or mental reservation; of which fact, however, I was before 
 apprised; but the gentleman himself lias admitted it, and I pursue it 
 no further. I am, however, disappointed to observe that he has been 
 at no pains to reconcile his allegiance to two governments so siugu- 
 larlv repugnant to each other in all their elements and tendencies. 
 
 My friend fled from persecution in Ireland! From paying tithes, 1 
 suppose, according to the Levitical law! Well, this tithe system is 
 a falling concern, and will soon pass away. But is not this, his perse- 
 cution, an ingenious off-set to fifty millions of martyrs sacrificed by 
 the papal power?! Some are whispering that this Roman persecu- 
 ting spirit is dying away as the tithe system. Let those, however,, 
 who think so, in addition to what I have already read from va- 
 rious sources, accept a few words from the "Plea for the West" 
 from the 2d ed. of M. Aiguan, of the French Academy in Paris, 
 A. D. 1818 : 
 
 "Passing to the 10th article of the Concordat, in which it is said that 
 his Most Christian Majesty shall employ, in concert with the Holy Father, 
 all the means in his power to cause to cease, as soon as possible, all the 
 disorders and obstacles which obstruct the welfare of religion and the 
 execution of the laws of the church were [the Protestants] to ask (al- 
 though the profuse shedding of their blood might hare informed them), 
 What are the laws of the church? The acts of Pius VII. himself, and 
 the writings on which the church rests her authority, would answer, THE 
 
 EXTERMINATION OF HERETICS, THE CONFISCATION OF THEIR GOODS, AND 
 THEIR PRIVATION OF EVERY CIVIL PRIVILEGE." 
 
 To this the author subjoins a note: "Certain portions of real estate which had
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION 351 
 
 belonged to ecclesiastics, had passed into the hands of Protestant princes. Pius VII. 
 in 1805, complained ofit to his nuncio residing at V~iei,na;and reminded him that, 
 according to the laws of the church, not only could not heretics possess ec- 
 clesiastical property, but that also they could not possess any property whatever, 
 since the crime of heresy ought to be punished by the confiscation of gooiis. 
 He added that the subjectsofa prince, who is a heretic, should be released from 
 every duty to him, freed from all obligation and all homage. ' In truth,' said he, 
 4 we have fallen on times so calamitous, and so humiliating to the spouse of Jesus 
 Christ, that it is not possible for her to practise, nor expedient to recall so holy 
 maxims; and she is forced to interrupt the course of her just severities against 
 the enemies of the faith. But if she cannot exercise her right to depose the 
 partizans of heresy from their principalities, and declare that they have forfeited 
 all their goods; can she ever permit that, to enrich themselves, they should 
 despoil her of her "own proper dominions? What a subject'of derision would 
 she not present to these very heretics and unbelievers, who, while they insrlted 
 her grief, would say they had discovered the method of rendering her tolerant? 
 
 "The same pontiff in his instructions to his agents in Poland, given in 1808, 
 professes this doctrine, that the laws of the church do not recognize any civil 
 privileges as belonging to persons not Catholic; that their marriages are not 
 valid; that they can live only in concubinage; that their children, being bas- 
 tards, are incapacitated to inherit; that the Catholics themselves are not validly 
 married, except they are united according to the rules prescribed bv the court of 
 Rome; and that, when they are married according to these rules, their marriage 
 is valid, had they in other respects infringed all the laws of their country." 
 Quarterly Register, vol. 3. p. 89. 
 
 Remember then, that according to the acts of Pius VII. the laws of 
 the church still command the extermination of heretics the confiscation 
 uf their goods, and their deprivation of every privilege that Protestant* 
 have no privileges , and that the present calm is owing, not to a change 
 of spirit, but of times : for says the pope : " the times are so calamitous 
 that the church is forced to interrupt the course of her JUST SEVERITIES 
 against THE ENEMIES OF THE FAITH !" These are truly calamitous 
 times ! ! Alas for prosperous days ! 
 
 I am indeed sorry that our debate has been so much out of logical 
 order. An issue rms never been fairly and fully formed on one of my 
 propositions. My friend occupied the ground which he chose. He 
 was respondent. How he has responded, it remains for others to 
 judge. He has been positive and declamatory enough, and very scru- 
 pulous about " mint, anise and cummin :" but how have the great to- 
 pics been met 1 I rejoice, however, that it will go to the public, as it 
 was spoken, and that the public will read and judge. 
 
 I have heard a hint that the gentleman is about to disprove the fact 
 of the anathema or bishop's curse by introducing Sterne, turning into 
 ridicule the curses pronounced centuries before he was born. The 
 humor of Sterne found the reality of the curse, or he would not have 
 laughed at it. 
 
 The gentleman has now to close the debate. The usages of discus- 
 sion forbid the introduction of new matter in the last speech. He will 
 robably again tell you of Catholic devotion to American liberty, and 
 f his brother soldiers, that foug-ht in the Revolutionary war. For, by 
 such arguments he has generally met the decrees of councils, the bulls 
 of popes, the records of history, and the precepts of the apostles. But 
 before the devotion of a few Roman Catholic soldiers to the cause of 
 the Revolution can be accepted as proof of Roman Catholic love of 
 either civil or religious liberty, it must be ascertained, whether the 
 hatred of Protestant England, rather than the love of rational liberty, 
 instigated those soldiers that served during that war. For my part, I
 
 352 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 incline to the opinion that the hatred of England was at least as strong 
 an impulse to their efforts as the love of liberty. But [Time ex- 
 pired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 BISHOP PCKCELJ. rises 
 
 My friends, in order to meet one of the last allegations of the gen- 
 tleman, namely, that the Catholic church has a law, making Protest- 
 ant children illegitimate ; I know of no law to that effect, which ad- 
 mits of the least practical difficulty ; but I will tell you where it is 
 still in force, and imposes civil disabilities and disqualifications of the 
 most odious character. It is in a Protestant country. And, here, let 
 me say, once for all, that I judge too highly of the character of Scots- 
 men and Englishmen, and know too well that they detest these laws 
 as much as 1 do, to mean anything disrespectful to them, <vhen I al- 
 lude to the acts of the British government, or the malpractices of in- 
 dividuals. Scotland has done much for science. Eagle-like she has 
 soared to its sunniest heights. May she battle, like the Bruce, by the 
 side of O'Connell, for human rights. But, facts are facts. Nov, 
 a Unitarian minister, Mr. Dewey, whom I have already quoted, says: 
 
 " The dissenters are demanding to be relieved from their burdens. Petitions 
 to parliament, either for an entire abolition of the union between church and 
 state, or for an essential modification of that union, have, it is well known, ^be- 
 come matters of almost every day occurrence. There is a determination on tliii 
 point, which must at length succeed; and I must say, indeed, from my own im- 
 pressions about the hardships of the case, that if the dissenters if those, whose con- 
 sciences and property and personal respectability are alike invaded by the church 
 establishment, will not cause their voice, and the voice of justice to be heard, they 
 
 deserve to be oppressed If the church endowments were a bequest for the 
 
 benefit of any particular class of Christians, it was for the Catholics. The lar- 
 gest portion of them were actually Catholic endowments. If it is proper that 
 they should be diverted from that original design at all, it ought at least to be 
 
 done in aid and furtherance of the whole religion of the country IVo man 
 
 I think, can travel through this country without knowingthat the dissenters are 
 frequently treated in a manner amounting to absolute indignity! As to the in- 
 justice of the svstem, it is well known. The dissenter is excluded fiomthe uni- 
 versities. In fact, he can neither be born, nor baptized, nor married, nor buried, 
 but under the opprobrium of the law. That is to say, there ran be no legal regis- 
 tration of his birth; his baptismal certificate does not entitle him to )eal marriage: 
 and he can receive neither marriage, nor burial from ihe hands of his own pastor. 
 
 And now what is alleged in defence of this state of things? No princij-le or 
 pretence of justice that I have ever heard, but only the principle of expedi- 
 ency. It is said that monopoly and exclusion here are necessary. It is said that 
 religion cannot be supporter! in dignity and honor, without ample endowments 
 and rich benefices." Vol. I. p. 143. 
 
 Such is the state of England in the enlightened nineteenth century, 
 and a pretty state it certainly is ! Thus, on incontrovertible testimony, 
 that of the nation at large, are monopoly and exclusion necessary to th 
 support of a system which Mr. Campbell has solemnly declared to be 
 the only bulwark of the Protestant religion ! ! 
 
 My friends, for those tremendous curses which you have heard, and 
 at which you have laughed so heartily ! I must spoil or heighten the 
 fun by telling you that they are not Catholic curses, nor yet Protes- 
 tant curses exactly, but that they are the jeu d' esprit of a Protestant 
 minister, Lawrence Sterne, all found in this book (exhibiting; it.) 
 which I have had brought me, this moment, from a book store, written 
 by that worthy parson himself, and one of the most grossly obscene 
 in the English language ! ! Verily, my opponent has given me, in this 
 finale, a measure of revenge which I would not, myself, have asked
 
 ROMATf CATHOLIC RELIGION. 353 
 
 for. And he had these curses, stowed away for years, on that bit of 
 soiled paper, to be produced as the coup de grace to the Catholics, at 
 the close of this debate. I saw these curses, when gome waggish 
 wight had them published, in Philadelphia ; and the moment he men- 
 tioned them, I wrote on my notes, " Sterne," " Tristram Shandy," and 
 sent for the book! Dr. Slop (Aits his finger, untying a certain case of 
 instruments : he whistles Lillebulero, to ease the pain ; and Uncle 
 Toby, or his nephew, with Cervantic gravity, swears by Juno's beard 
 to me genuineness of these curses, and hands them to Dr. Slop, to 
 read by way of an anodyne ! But, seriously, in the 28th chapter of 
 Deuteronomy, are to be found curses, as awful a,s these here pro- 
 lounccd. Must we mock God that inspired, or the scripture that re- 
 sords them? Now the bible itself is turned into ridicule by the gentleman' 
 Christian charity and common sense, truth and justice, require im- 
 peratively, that no one should be condemned without a hearing, 01 
 charged with holding sentiments which he disavows. Here is the 
 fullest, the clearest, the most unequivocal disavowal, of the doctrine 
 of the pope's deposing power. The Catholics do not believe that he 
 has any such power." We would be among the first to oppose him in 
 its exercise ; and we would be neither heretics nor bad Catholics; and 
 we each of us bishops swear the very words of the oath : "Persequar 
 et impugnabo, salvo f meo or dine" in the sense specified, which is the 
 only true sense, the assumption of any such power by the pope, or the 
 pope for the assumption of any such power. FOR TEN CENTURIES THIS 
 
 POWER WAS NEVER CLAIMED BY ANY POPE. IT CAN, THEREFORE, BE NO 
 
 PART OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE. IT HAS NOT GAINED ONE FOOT OF LAND 
 
 FOR THE POPE. IT IS NOT ANY WHERE BELIEVED, OR ACTED UPON, IN 
 
 THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. NOR CAN IT BE, AT THIS LATE DAY, ESTAB- 
 LISHED, IF ANY MAN COULD BE FOUND MAD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE AT- 
 TEMPT. Let these go before the American people, as the real princi- 
 ples of Catholics concerning the power of the pope. And if we must 
 pronounce a judgment on the past, let it be remembered, that when 
 the pope did use this power, it was when appealed to as a common 
 father, and in favor of the oppressed ! We should go back, in spirit, 
 to former times, when we undertake to judge them. We should un- 
 derstand the condition of society at the period ; we should know the 
 circumstances, general and particular, which controlled or influenced 
 the great events recorded in history. We should not quarrel with our 
 ancestors, because they did not possess knowledge which we possess; 
 nor flatter ourselves that we are vastly their better 11 because of these 
 ad vlhtitious advantages; while they manifestly surpass us in others 
 of greater value, to the Christian, the moralist, the artist. They had 
 the substance of good things : we seem to be content with the shadow 
 of them. The very efforts now made by fanatical preachers, and pe- 
 titioners to congress, to proscribe Roman Catholics, clearly show that 
 we art far behind them in the regard fov truth, and the exercise of 
 toleration. Let it never be forgotten, what the sed was, of what reli- 
 gion tht men were, who first petitioned congress, in this free country, to 
 restrict, c r, to use a more appropriate word, to abolish liberty of conscience, 
 and tofir-'i a Christian parly in politics. They were not Roman Catholics. 
 The B*'l of Gregory XVI. censures bad books. He condemns not 
 the liberty, but thelicentiousness of the press. And is he not right ! 
 Can there bt greater corrupter of morals than bad books ? Did not 
 2 E a 23
 
 354 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 St. Paul burn bad books to the amount of 5000 pieces of silver, as ws 
 read in Acts xix. 19? Is it not actionable in England and the United 
 States to publish books against the existence of God* You see what 
 one-sided views, some would be great men can take, of the doings of 
 popes. The gentleman blew up the bible, and all the mysteries of 
 Christianity, and himself with them, when he tried to blast the rock 
 of Peter; is it wonderful that he should implicate St. Paul, and Eng- 
 lish and American common and statute law, when he would blow up 
 the good old pope, Gregory XVI. ? 
 
 In a rescript addressed by his holiness Pius VII. to the vicars apos- 
 tolic of Great Britain, dated the 8th of April, 1820, his holiness ex- 
 horts them to take care that 
 
 " The faithful abstain from reading the wicked books, in which in these calam- 
 itous times, our religion is assailed from all sides; and that they should be strength- 
 ened in faith and good works, by the reading of pious books, and particularly the 
 holy scriptures, in editions approved by the church you preceding them by word 
 and example." "Ut a perversorum librorum lectione, q,,ibus,ca]amitosiss!iiiis hisc 
 tfmiporibus sancta nostra Religio undique impetitur, abstioeant; ut piorum libro 
 rum, praesertimscripturarum sacrarum lectione, ineditionibus ab Ecclesia appro 
 batis in fide et in bonis operibus, vobis verbo et exemplopraeuntibus.conforten 
 tur." 
 
 " In the reign of Louis XIV. of France, at the suggestion of Bossuet, bishop of 
 Meaux, 50,000 copies of the new Testament in the vernacular tongue, were dis 
 tributed in the provinces." See vindication of religious Orders, No. 40, 3d. vol. 
 
 The Index is a book of which I have never had 1 a copy ; and no Ca- 
 tholic, that I know of, in the United States, has ever seen it. The 
 law of nature is as much of an " Index" as that volume, for it forbids 
 us to read bad books which the index-finger of conscience points to 
 us as evil, with the word BEWARE ! The gentleman greatly mis- 
 takes the Catholic doctrine, the morals of Catholics, the politics, the 
 intellects of Catholics. I trust, as he becomes more enlightened, he 
 will think better of them. I am sure this audience, and the public, 
 will. All see by the crowds of Catholics thronging, to the very las< 
 moment, to this debate, how free and fearless of the investigation of 
 their faith' they are, and feel. They have had the full benefit of al 1 
 the gentleman's sophistry and extracts; and the effect is infinitely 
 better for Catholicism than any sermon that I, or any Catholic bishop 
 in the union, has ever preached to them. They see that, with all the 
 gentleman's learning and talents, he has utterly failed to establish a 
 single one of his propositions. Hence they will be more attached to 
 their faith than ever. 
 
 As to the deposing power, I may recall to your recollection the fact 
 that five great universities of Europe were consulted by Williaqpi Pitt, 
 and they all, in the most solemn language, reprobated such a doctrine 
 Their decisions may appear in an appendix, if we publish one. I 
 have not time to read them now. In Millner's End of controversy, 
 and Charles Butler's memoirs of English, Irish and Scottish Catholics, 
 we'll find these matters fairly stated and discussed. 
 
 There is more liberty in. Rome than the gentleman gives it credit 
 for. There is a Protestant church, even in Rome, where service is 
 regularly performed according to the Episcopalian rite. The Jews 
 are not any where more charitably treated, than in the eternal city. 
 Last year, they presented a splendid copy of the Holy Bible, or some 
 other sacred book, to the pope, as a token of their gratitude. 
 
 The gentleman calls the system of tithes a dying system. It ha*
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KEL1GIOX. 355 
 
 indeed been a dying system. It has slain its thousands, and made 
 the condition of the living worse than that of the dead. 
 
 Judge Hall, of this place, has treated the question discussed, more 
 learnedly and eloquently than my worthy opponent or myself. I will 
 give his remarks the place to which they are so well entitled for 
 candor and liberality. 
 
 'This question has become so important in the United States, that it is time to 
 b?gin to inquire into its bearings, and to know whether the public are really in- 
 tert#ed in the excitement which has been gotten up with unusual industry, and 
 has been kept alive with a pertinacity that has seldom been equaled. For seve- 
 ral years past the religious protestant papers of our country, with but few ex 
 teptions, have teemed with virulent attacks against the Catholics, and especially 
 with paragraphs charging them substantially with designs hostile to our free in- 
 stitutions, and with a systematic opposition to the spread of all free inquiry and 
 liberal knowledge. These are grave charges, involving consequences of serious 
 import, and such as should not be believed or disbelieved upon mere rumor, or 
 permitted to rest upon any vague hypothesis ; because they are of a nature which 
 renders them susceptible of proof". The' spirit of our institutions requires that 
 these questions should be thus examined. We profess to guaranty to every in- 
 habitant of our country, certain rights, in the enjoyment of which he shall not 
 be molested, except through the instrumentality of a process of law which is 
 clearly indicated. Life, liberty, property, reputation, are thus guarded and 
 equally sacred is the right secured to every man, to ' worship God according 
 to the dictates of his own conscience.' 
 
 But it is idle to talk of these inestimable rights, as having any efficacious ex 
 istence, if the various checks and sanctions, thrown around them by our consti- 
 tution and laws, may be evaded, and a lawless majority, with a high hand, ravish 
 them by force from a few individuals who may be effectually outlawed by a per- 
 verted public opinion, produced by calumny and clamor. It is worse than idle, 
 it is wicked, to talk of liberty, while a majority, having no other right than that 
 of the strongest, persist in blasting the character of unoffending individuals by 
 calumny, and in oppressing them by direct violence upon their persons and 
 property, not only without evidence of their delinquency, but againstevidence; 
 not only without law, but in violation of law and merely because they belong 
 to an unpopular denomination. 
 
 The very fact that the Roman Catholics are, and can be with impunity, thus 
 trampled upon, in a country like ours, affords in itself the most conclusive 
 evidence of the groundlessness of the fears, which are entertained by some 
 respecting them. Without the power to protect themselves, in the enjoyment 
 of the ordinary rights of citizenship, and with a current of prejudice setting so 
 strongly against them, that they find safety only in bending meekly to the storm, 
 how idle, now puerile, how disingenuous is it, to rave as some have done, of the 
 danger of Catholic influence! 
 
 We repeat that this is a question which must rest upon testimony. The 
 American people are too intelligent, toojust, too magnanimous, to suffer the tem- 
 porary delusion by which so many have been blinded, to settle down into a per- 
 manent national prejudice, and to oppress one Christian denomination at the 
 bidding of others without some proof, or some reasonable argument. 
 
 We have not yet seen any evidence in the various publications that have 
 reached us, of any unfairness on the part of the Catholics, in the propagation 
 cf their religions doctrines. If they are active, persevering, and ingenious in 
 tnel attempts to gain converts, and if they are successful in securing the coun- 
 tenance and support of those who maintain the same form of belief in other 
 countries, these we imagine, are the legitimate proofs of Christian zeal and sin- 
 cerity. In relation to protestant sects, they are certainly go estimated; and we 
 are yet to learn, why the ordinary laws of evidence are to be et aside in refer- 
 ence to this denomination, and why the missionary spirit which is so praisewor- 
 thv in others, should he thought so wicked and so dangerous in them. 
 
 "l.i t ii- inquire into this matter calmly. Why is it that the Catholics are pur- 
 sued with such pertinacity, with such vindiclivrness, ith such rcthUss malevo- 
 Why cannot their peculiar opinions be opposed by argument, by per- 
 suasion, by remonstrance, as one Christian sect should oppose each other? We 
 speal: kindly of the Jew, and even of the heathen; there are those that love a
 
 356 DEBATE Oy THE 
 
 Negro or a Cherokee even better than their own flesh and blood ; but a Catholic 
 is an abomination, for whom there is no law, no charity, no bond of christiac 
 fraternity. 
 
 These reflections rise naturally out of the recent proceedings in relation to 
 the Roman Catholics. A nunnery has been demolished by an infuriated mob 
 a small community of refined and unprotected females, lawfully and usefully en- 
 gaged in the tuition of children, whose parents have voluntarily committed them 
 to their care, have been driven from their home yet the perpetrators have es- 
 caped punishment, and the act, if not openly excused, is winked at, by protestant 
 Christians. The outrage was public, extensive, and undeniable; and a most re 
 spectable committee, who investigated all the facts, have shown that it was un 
 provoked a mere wanton ebullition of savage malignity. Yet the sympalhief 
 of a large portion of the protestant communit\ are untouched. 
 
 Is another instance required, of the pervading character of this prejudice'? 
 How common has been the expedient, employed by missionaries from the west, 
 in the eastern states, of raising money for education or for religion upon the al- 
 legation that it was necessary to prevent the ascendency of the catholics. How 
 o'teu has it been asserted, throughout the last ten years, that this was the chosen 
 field on which the papists had erected their standard, and where the battle must 
 be fought for civil and religious liberty. What tales of horror have been poured 
 into the ears of the confiding children of the pilgrims of young men emigrat- 
 ing to the west, marrying catholic ladies, and collapsing without a struggle into 
 the arms of Romsuism of splendid edifices undermined by profound dungeons, 
 prepared for the reception of heretic republicans of boxes of firearms secretly 
 transported into hidden receptacles, in the very bosoms of our flourishing cities 
 of vast and widely ramified European conspiracies bj which Irish catholics are 
 suddenly converted into lovers of monarchy, and obedient instruments of kings'- 
 
 A prejudice so indomitable and so blind, could not fail, in an ingenious and en 
 terprising land like ours, to be made the subject of pecuniar}' speculation: accord- 
 ingly we find such works as the 'Master Key to Popery,' 'Secrets of Female 
 Convents,' and ' Six Months in a Convent,' manufactured with a distinct view 
 to making a profit out of this diseased state of the public mind. The abuse of 
 the catholics therefore is not merely matter of party rancor, but, is a regular 
 trade, and the compilation of anti-catholic books of the character alluded to, haa 
 become a part of the regular industry of the country, as much as the making of 
 nutmegs, or the construction of clocks. 
 
 Philosophy sanctions the belief, that power held by any set of men without 
 restraint or competition, is liable to abuse; and history teaches the humiliating 
 fact that power thus held has always been abused. To inquire who has been 
 the greatest aggressor against the rights of human nature, when all who have 
 been tempted have evinced a common propensity to trample upon the laws of 
 justice and benevolence, would be an unprofitable procedure. The reformer* 
 punished heresy by death as well as the catholics; and the murders perpetrated 
 by intolerance, in the reign of Elizabeth, were not less atrocious than those 
 which occurred under ' the bloody Mary.' We might even come nearer home, 
 and point to colonies on our own continent, planted by men professing to have 
 tied from religious persecution, who not only excluded from all civil and politi- 
 cal rights those who were separated from them by only slight shades of religi- 
 ous belief, but persecuted many even to death, for heresy and witchcraft. Yet 
 these things are not taken into the calculation, and the catholics are assumed, 
 without examination, to be exclusively and especially prone to the sins of op- 
 pression and cruelty. 
 
 The French catholics, at a very early period, commenced a system of missions 
 for the conversion of the Indians, and were remarkably successful in gaining- 
 converts, and conciliating the confidence and affections of the tribes. While th6 
 Pequods and other northern tribes were becoming exterminated, or sold intc 
 slavery, the more fortunate savage of the Mississippi was listening to the pious 
 counsels of the catholic missionary. This is another fact, which deserves to be 
 remembered, and which should be weighed in the examination of the testimony 
 [t shews that the catholic appetite for cruelty if not quite so keen as is usually 
 imagined, and that they exercised, of choice, an expansive benevolence, at a peri- 
 od when protestants, similarly situated, were blood-thirsty and raparious. 
 
 Advancing a little further in point of time, we find a number of colonie. ad- 
 vancing rapidly towards prosperity, on our Atlantic sea board, 'n point of civil
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC HE11 HON. 357 
 
 government they were somewhat detached, each making its own municipal 
 laws, and there being in each a predominance of the inHuence of one religious 
 ienomination. We might therefore expect to see the political bias of each sect 
 .arried out into practice, and it is curious to examine how tar such was the fact. 
 It is the more curious, because the writers and orators of one branch of this 
 family of republics, are in the habit of attributing to their own fathers, the prin- 
 ciples of religious and political toleration, which became established throughout 
 the whole, and are now the boast and pride of our nation. The impartial record 
 of history affords on this subject a proof alike honorable to all, but which re- 
 bukes alike the sectional or sectarian vanity of each. New-England was settled 
 by English puritans, JN'ew-York by Dutch nrotestants, Pennsylvania by Quakers, 
 Maryland by Catholics, Virginia by the Episcopalian adherents of the Stuarts 
 and South Carolina by a mingled population of roundheads and cavaliers fror 
 England and of French huguenots yet the same broad foundations of civil and 
 political liberty were laid simultaneously in them all, and the same spirit of re- 
 sistance animated each community, when the oppressions of the mother country 
 became intolerable. Religious intolerance prevailed in early times only in the 
 eastern colonies, but the witchcraft superstition, though most strongly developed 
 there, pervaded some other portions or the new settlements. We shall not ampli- 
 fy our remarks on this topic; it is enough to say, that if the love of monarchy 
 was a component principle of the catholic^faith, it was not developed in oui 
 country when a lair opportunity was offered for its exercise; and that in the glo 
 rious struggle for liberty, for civil and religious emancipation when our fathers 
 arrayed themselves in defence of the sacred principles involving the whole broad 
 ground of contest between liberty and despotism, the catholic and the protestant 
 stood side by side on the battle field, and in the council, and pledged to their 
 common country, with equal devotedness, their lives, their fortunes,and theirsa- 
 cred honor. JNfor should it be forgotten, that in a conllict thus peculiarly mark- 
 ed, a catholic king was our ally, when the most powerful of protestant govern- 
 ments was our enemy." 
 
 Now, my friends and fellow citizens, let me have permission to 
 close this debate by the language of the illustrious Washington, 
 in his answer to the patriotic address of the U. S. Catholics. I dis- 
 claim all unkind feelings towards Mr. Campbell or any of his friends, 
 and acknowledge my gratitude to him for enabling me to place my 
 religion, in its proper light, before the public. I also beg leave res- 
 pectfully to tender to this audience my thanks for the dignity of their 
 deportment during this debate. Instead of quarreling about religion 
 we ought to be engaged in our vocation of love and peace, as its 
 faithful ministers, and sincere professors. We have all, a great deal 
 to do to improve the morals of the age, to elevate the standard of 
 literature, to promote by such means as all Christians approve, the 
 welfare of our common country, and to obtain for our green state, the fer- 
 tile and flourishing, Ohio, a distinguished rank for knowledge, virtue 
 and patriotism, among her elder and her younger sisters in this fair 
 republic. These are legitimate pursuits, alike pleasing to God, and 
 useful to man. The world is large enough for us all. Some can, in 
 the Abraham and Lot way of settling their difficulties, feed their 
 flocks in one field, and some in another ; and, as Joseph said to his 
 brethren going home to their father, from Egypt, as we are going to 
 one heavenly Father, " see that ye fall not out by the way " (Reads 
 fioni Washington's letter as follows :) 
 
 To ITIE ROMAN* CATHOLICS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. 
 
 Gentlemen While I now receive with much satisfaction your congratulation* 
 on my being called bv an unanimous vote, to the first station in my country, I 
 cannot but dnlv notice your politeness, in offering an apology for the. unavoidable 
 il.=.lay. As that delay has given you an opportunity of realizing, instead of antici- 
 pating, the benefits of the general government, you will do me the justice to be- 
 neve, that your testimony of the increase of the" public prosperity, enhances the
 
 358 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 pleasure, which I should otherwise have experienced from your affectionate ad 
 aress. 
 
 I feel that my conduct, in war and in peace, has met with more general app.ro 
 bation than could have reasonably been expected; and I find mvself disposed to 
 consider that fortunate circumstance, in a great degree, resulting from the able 
 support, and extraordinary candor, of my fellow-citizens of all denominations. 
 
 The prospect of national prosperity now before us, is truly animating, and 
 ought to excite the exertions of all good men, to establish and secure the happi- 
 ness of their country, in the permanent duration of its freedom nnd indepen- 
 dence. America, under the smiles of divine providence, the protection of 
 a good government, and the cultivation of manners, morals, and piety, cannot 
 foil of attaining an uncommon degree of eminence in literature, commerce, agri- 
 culture, improvements at home, and respectability abroad. 
 
 As man* nd become more liberal, they will be more apt to allow, that all those 
 who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community, are equally entitled 
 to the protection of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the 
 foremost nations in examples of justice and liberality. And I presume that your 
 fellow citizens will not forget ike patriotic part which you took in the accom- 
 plishment of their revolution, and the establishment of their government, or the 
 important assistance which they received from a nation in which the Roman 
 Catholic faith is professed. 
 
 I thank you, gentlemen, for you? kind concern for me. While my life and 
 ray health shall continue, in whatever situation I may be, it shall be my con- 
 stant endeavor to justify the favorable sentiments which you are pleased to 
 express of my conduct. And may the members of your society in America, ani- 
 mated alone by the pure spirit of Christianity, and still conducting themselves as 
 the faithful subjects of our government, enjoy every temporal and spiritual felicity 
 
 GEORGE WASHINGTON. 
 March, 1790. 
 
 I [END OF THE DEBATE.] 
 
 The following are the extracts referred to on page 224 : 
 
 ENGLISH DIVI.-SES. 
 
 " Confession to apriest, the minister of pat-Jon and reconciliation, the curate 
 of souls, and the guide of consciences, is of so great use and benefit, to all that 
 are heavy laden icith their sins, that they who carelessly and causelessly neglect 
 it, are neither lovers of the peace of consciences, nor careful for the advantage 
 of their souls." (Ep. Jer. Taylor, of the doctrine and practice of repentance, 
 chap. x. sec. 4.)" For the publication of our sins to the minister of holy things, 
 
 ' TOUTOIP ex" T > A.OJ-OV, ff tx.li >l iaiSn^if r&v a-xfixnu^v xa.'iuv, said asil, (Reg-id. 
 
 rev. 229,) is just like the manifestation of the diseases of our body to the phys- 
 ician^for God hath appointed them, as spiritual physicians." (Taylor, ut supra.') 
 P. S. It has startled many an honest independent, who by chance has got hola 
 of an original work of sturdy John Calvin, or Jllartin Luther, when in some well- 
 prized " commentarie ;" some latent passage of " The Institutions," he has en- 
 countered sly admissions, well guarded by cautious ' ifs,' and left to their otcn 
 fatK without defence or apology, yet savoring much of ancient heresy. Ana 
 in the honesty of his ignorance, he has exclaimed, as he returned the dusty 
 volume to its shelf, Great Calvin! much learning hath made thee mad. The bi- 
 ble, and the bible alone, is the religion of Rrotestants. Where have been Protes- 
 tants as consistent as the Covenanters and the Puritans? Assigning to Rome 
 the whole body of Christian testimony, experience, and wisdom; outspreading, 
 in one hant, the broad banner of private opinion; coolly hanging and bunting 
 their brother-democrats with the. other; extolling Protestantism as the religion 
 
 of the enlightened; fairly proving it the religion of the ignorant And u-ho are 
 
 they that the bigoted " no bigot" points at, " Romanists," " Papishers,'' " near 
 neighbors to tht Babylon of abominations!" They are men tr/io have devoted 
 their lives to th study of the legitimate authorities of doctrine and *ite."
 
 HOMAK CATHOLIC RELIGION. 350 
 
 This was exhibited and the names read at the close of debate ou 
 apostolic succession. 
 
 Tabular view of the order of the Episcopal succession in the prominent \fica 
 tile) Dioceses mentioned bj Eusebius. 
 
 BISHOPS OF ROME. 
 
 Peter and Paul, according- to Eusebius, died as martyrs at Rome; after vhese 
 followed, 
 
 1 Linns, 9 Pius, 16 Urbanus, 23 Xyslus orSiilufii 
 
 2 Aneticletus, 10 Anicetus, 17 Pontianu*, 24 Dionyslus, 
 8 Clement, 11 Soter, 18 Anteros. 25 Felix, 
 
 4 Euarestus, 12 Eleutherus, 19 Fabianus, 26 Eutychianus, 
 
 5 Alexander, 13 Victor, 20 Cornelius, 27 Caius, 
 
 6 XystusorSixtus,14 Zephyrinus, 21 Lucius, 28 Marcellinus. 
 
 7 Telesphorus, 15 Callisthus, 22 Strphanus. 29 Miltiadeg. 
 
 8 Hyginus, 
 
 BISHOPS OF ANTTOCH. 
 
 1 Evodius, 6 Theophilus, 11 Zebinas, 16 Dpmnus, 
 
 2 Ignatius, 7 Maximinus, 12 Babylas, 17 Tinicpus, 
 
 3 Hfirnn, 8 Serapipn, 13 Fabius, 18 Cyrillus, 
 
 4 Cornelius, 9 Asclepiades, 14 Demetrianus, 19 Tyrannus, 
 
 5 Eros, 10 Philetus, 15 Paul of Samosata. 
 
 BISHOPS OF ALEXANDRIA. 
 The evangelist Mark, established the church there, and after him came, 
 
 1 Annianus, 6 Kumenes, 11 Demetrius, 16 Peter, 
 
 2 Avilius, 7 Marcus, 12 Heracla?, 17 Achillas, 
 
 3 Cerdo, 8 Celadipn, 13 Dionysius, 18 Alexander, 
 
 4 Primus, 9 Agrippinus, 14 Maximus, 
 
 5 Justus, 10 Julianus, 15 Theonas, 
 
 BISHOPS OF LAODICEA. 
 
 Thelymedres, Socrates, Anatolius, Thcodotus, 
 
 Heliodorus, Eusebius of Alexandria, Stephen, 
 
 BISHOPS OF CESAREA. 
 
 Theophilus Domnus, Agapius, Eusebius. 
 
 Theootistus, Theotecnus, 
 
 Having revised some three hundred pages of proof of this debate, bofore 1 
 left Cincinnati for New Orleans, on the 2nd of March, 1837, I am willing to 
 consider and approve the report, as being substantially correct. I have the ut- 
 ot confidence in the honor and honesty of the publishers, Messrs. J. A. James 
 fc Co., that the balance of the discussion will be fairly presented to the public. 
 
 4- JOHN B. PURCELL, Bishop of Cincinnati. 
 
 THE DISPUTED PASSAGE OF ST. LIGORI. MR. CAMPBELL'S 
 DOCUMENTARY SUBSTANTIATION. 
 
 The rer.der, who looks back to pages 219,253, will there see with what solemn 
 a.?d strong asseverations the Bishop declared that no such passage as that quoted 
 from page 294 was ever written by Saint Ligori.* 
 
 MR. SMITH, in replv to my letter per Mr. Emmons, wrote as follows 
 
 " The obnoxious passage, then, which the Romish Bishop of Cincinnati calls hea- 
 vei; and earth to witness is not to be found in the works of Ligori, is the following: 
 
 " A Bishop, however poor he may be, cannot appropriate to himself pecuniary 
 fines, wither! the licence of the Apostolical See. But he ought to apply them 
 to pious uses. Much less can he apply those fines to any thing else but pious 
 uses, which the Council of Trent has laid upon non-resident Clergymen, or 
 upon those Clergymen who keep Concubines.'" Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444. 
 
 This passage, I will now give in the Latin, as it stands on the 444th page of 
 the 8th volume of the " MORAL THEOLOGY OF ALPHONSUS DE LIGORIO," from 
 whose Work the extract was made. The words are as follows: 
 
 "Mulctas pecuniarias Episcopus sibi addicere non potest, qiiantumvis pauper 
 
 * See pages 268, 319, 1KO.
 
 360 DEBATE &C. 
 
 HJ, sine licentia Sedis Apostolicse. [ut ex pluribus argumentis S. Congregai 
 evincitnr in Tract. De Syn. Dicec. L. 10. C. 10. N. 2.] Seed debeut in usus pioi 
 expendi. iVjulto magis npn possunt nisi in pios usus applicari ills mulcts, qnai 
 Tridentinum inflixit Clericis noa residentibus, aut concubinariis." Ligor. Epit. 
 Doc. Mor. p. 444. 
 
 The words included in the brackets, were not translated, merely because J 
 did not wish to encumber the " SYNOPSIS," (as I have observed in the " PRE- 
 FACE OF THE SYNOPSIS,") with too many of the authorities quoted by Ligori. 
 I shall now, however, translate the above words in the brackets, much, I know, 
 to the discomfiture of his Reverence the Romish Bishop of Cincinnati. The 
 wolds in the brackets, therefore, translated, are as follows [" as is evident from 
 many arguments of the Holy Congregation, in the Treatise respecting the Dio- 
 cesan Syn6dj, Book 10, Chapter 10, Number 2."] 
 
 Here we have, not only the authority of St. Ligori, but also that of the 
 " Holy Congregation of Rites." 
 
 Since this subject is now to be probed to the bottom, we will also translate 
 the contracted words which I transferred into the " Synopsis," as I found them 
 in the original. The words to which I allude are the terminating ones of the 
 disputed passage, as follows: " Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444." which, trans- 
 lated, stand thus: " From the Work of Ligori, under the head of ' An Epitome 
 of the Moral Doctrine,' page 444." 
 
 In order to render the testimony still more striking, it is important to observe 
 that this " Epitome of the Moral Doctrine," to which Ligori alludes, is an Epi 
 tome compiled by no less a personage than Pope Benedict XIV. as we are in- 
 former) by Ligori himself, in the 301st page of the 8th volume of his "MoRAl 
 THEOLOGY." 
 
 That the previous Latin words are truly and faithfully the words of St. Ligori 
 and fairly extracted from 8th volume, p. 444. is duly certified by the following 
 learned gentlemen. 
 
 We, the undersigned, have carefully examined the foregoing extracts from 
 the Moral Theology of St. Ligori; and having compared them with the original 
 Latin copy of that Work, now before us, we do hereby certify that the said 
 extracts are verbatim, truly and correctly given by Mr. Smith. 
 
 In this certificate, we include, particularly, the passage disputed by Bishop 
 Purcell, which is contained in Mr. Smith's "SYNOPSIS," p. 294, par. 7, headed 
 " CONCUBINES of the CLERGY." 
 
 DUNCAN DUNBAR, Pastor of the MDougal-st. Baft. Church. 
 
 J.VO. KENNADAY. Pastor of the Methodist Episcopal Church. 
 
 SPENCER H. CONE, Pastor of the Oliver-street Baptist Church, 
 
 SAM'L F. B. MORSE, Prof. Sfc.in theUniversityofthe City of Jfeto York. 
 
 WM. GREEN, JR. Deacon in the f>th Free Cong. Church, JV. Y. 
 
 C. G. FINNEY, Pastor of the CAurcAtn the Broadway Tabernacle. 
 New- York, Feb'y 23, 1837. 
 
 On receiving the above communication from Mr. Smith I asked from bishop 
 Purcell the loan of the works of St. Ligori. He politely complied with my re- 
 quest. Turning to the page, 444, volume 8, I found every word in his own 
 edition as above reported. I carried it and the Synopsis or Mr. Smith to our 
 mutual friend Mr. Rinmont, to whom it was now my time to appeal. Mr. Kin- 
 Hiont read both the original and the translation: and then certified as follows. 
 
 The above (version of Smith p. 294) I regard to be a faithful translation of 
 the passage as it stands in the 8th volume of Ligori page 444. 
 
 Cincinnati, Feb'y 3, 1837. ALEXANDER KINMONT. 
 
 Having read all the proofs of this discussion, I certify, that the reader hag 
 ubstantially, as correctly, as under all the circumstances could have been ;x 
 pected, a fair representation of the whole discussion. 
 
 MARCH 7, 1837. A. CAMPBELL. 
 
 THE SND