"» l ^»«" ' I UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES THE QUESTION O F T H E PRECEDENCY O F T H E PEERS O F Ireland in England, FAIRLY STATED. Jn a Letter to an English Lord, ^jNoblemano/^ other Kingdom. r — ' — — 1 Alieni appetens, fui frofufus. D V B L I N: Printed in the Year MDCCXX^IX. - i ESI*. ♦ . TO THE ^READER : ■ iJJS Cifap* gf the Peers of Ireland having been admitted upon the unhappy Occajion of the Procejjion at the Funeral of her tate Majefiy ^ueen Caroline, in which they were allowed the Place and Rank which they had ever be* I fore enjoyed ; it may feeni fomt~ what unneceffary y at this T*ime^ to A 2 publijh 301253 CJ3 g ii To the READER. publi/h any thing relating to this Difpute. But, m it is prefumed^ that there will Jhortly be another Marriage in the Royal Family r , and as many other Occajions may happen of new Ceremony , in which the fame great Perfons may be concerned, it cannbt be improper to Jhew this Ar^ gument in its full Force, which will inevitably take away all Occafion of Pretence to repine at that Deter- mination which has been fo wifely made, in a Matter never to have been contefled, if it had been truly under- food* It is a very great Misfortune to the Public k, that Men, either out of Prejudice or Vanity, fo frequently give To the READER. iii give their Opinions upon Subje&s with which they are wholly unac- quainted \ and this Misfortune is of greater Confequence, when it happens to concern the Pretenjions of Nations or of Bodies of Men of this Difiin- Bion. The Heat and Paffton fhewn in private Debates, too often com- municate a fad Influence upon pub- lick Councils, and create Divifions and Animof ties of a very dangerous Nature to the Commonwealth, It was upon this Ground, that one of the Articles of Impeach?nent againfi the great Earl of Strafford was, That he had affirmed Ireland to be a conquered Country ; and the famous Mr. Pymm, a Manager of that Impeachment, obferved upon it. Hat no jv To the READER. no Speech could be fuller fraught with Treafon to the Englifli State, fence it tended to create a general DifaffeSlion in that whole People to the common Government. Upon the fame Principle it was, that the Com- mons of England * wifely expelled, and voted to the Tower, Sir Chri- ftopher Pigot, Knight of the Shire for Bucks, one of the moft confi- derable Members of that Houfe, for an Inve&ive againjl the Scotifh Na- tion. If then it has been the Wifdom of the Legifature to endeavour, by Me- thods of the greatefl Severity, even upon its own Members, to ftpprefs * Feb. 13, i6e6. fuch To the READER. v fuch Opinions, as have a Tendency to create a DifaffeElion in the Coun- tries appendant on our Government, it mufi be thought a meritorious AB^ to attempt by a clearer State of any Difpute, which may occajion a Dis- content of this Kind, to remove the Caufes of it : And as the Circum- flances of Europe, and of this Na- tion in particular ; are fuch as now require, more than perhaps in any former Time, the JlriSlefi Union among ourfelves, a Step which is taken to that deferable End, requires no Apo- It remains therefore for us, only to make our Excufes to the Noble Author, that this Copy is publifhed without vi To the READER. without his Knowledge or Concurrence, Among fome Tranfcripts of this cu- rious Piece y which were handed about in Manufcript y at the Time of this Difputey one has happened to fall into our Handsy whichy as we acquired without any Condition or ReftriBion y we hope we may be allowed to pub- lifh without Offence, ■ THE ■ -■ i * ' ■ ■ — ■ ^— — —— — — — — — i ^mm i i THE QUESTION O F TH E PRECEDENCY O F T H E Peers of Ireland ix\England y FAIRLY STATED. In a Letter ft? an English Lord. My Lord, THE laft Time I had the Honour of converfing with your Lordfhip, you may remember, that our Dif- courfe was principally turned upon the Dif- pute concerning Precedency between the Englijh and Irijh Peers, and that I promifed your Lordfhip to procure for you a Copy of B thofe 2 Tie Precedency of the thofc Papers which were prefented to his Majefty by the Peers of Ireland, in Vindi- cation of their Rights. Having made your Lordfhip this Promife, I think my felf obliged to perform it, and now acquit myfelf of it, by fending you the following Sheets, which contain all that was delivered to his Majefty , to- gether with fome additional Precedents, which for want of Time could not be then collected. After this, I afTure you, that I would willing- ly fubmit the Contefl to your Decifiort ; tho' your Seat in Parliament here might be generally thought, and would be thought by me, in the Inftance of fome other Perfons, a Reafon againft it. But your Lordfhip's known Candour and Integrity eafily vanquifh all Sufpicions of Partiality. I mail trouble your Lordfhip with very little Introduction j you are already well enough acquainted with the Nature of the Difpute. Nor fhall I offer you any Apology for the few Obfervations of my own, upon the Ar- guments ufed againft our Body, fince your Lordfhip defires. to be Matter of the Debate ; and as thefe Obfervations are, in fome mea- fure, neceffary to your being fo. 1 I mail Peers ^Ireland. 3 I fhall therefore proceed directly to give you the Memorial prefented to his Majefty by the Earl of Egmont y upon the 2d of i\fo- vember 1733, in the Name, and on the Be- half of the Peers of Ireland, upon the Occa- fion of the Solemnity of the Marriage of his Serene Highnefs the Prince of Orange with the Princefs Royal. "TheMEMORIAL " To the King's Moil Excellent Majefty, " The humble Memorial of the Peers of " your Majefty 's Kingdom of Ireland, u now in London , " Sheweth, " 'THHATthe Peers of your Majefty 's King- dom of Ireland are now in a£hlal Pof- )ln Peers ^/Ireland. ii (p) In the Mufler of Soldiers, in the Voyage of Normandy, before the Town of Calais, in the 2 ifl of Edward III. the Irijh Earl of Kildare was ranked immediately after Hafiings Earl of Pembroke, and before the Bifhop of Durham, and the Englijh Barons, Stafford, Talbot, &c. (if) In the Reign of Richard II. Vere Earl of Oxford^ being created Marquis of Dublin^ had Place of all the Earls of England. (r) Henry VI. upon Whitfunday, in the 4th Year of his Reign, was dubbed a Knight by the Regent his Uncle, 'John Duke of Bed- ford. Upon which Occafion, Writs being iffued to thofe who were to attend the King, in order to be Knighted with him, among thefe was fames, Son to the Earl of Ormond y who had Place before the Lord Grey of Codenore. (s) In the 2 5th of Edward IV. 1475. the Scotch Earl of Dowglas figned before the Lords Scroop, Stanly, and Hajiings, to the Conditions of a Treaty then made with the (/>) Lord Stafford's Plea for Precedency before the Lord Talbot. (q) Pat-9Ric. II. &2iRic.N. (r) Rymer's Feeder. Vol. 10. fol. 356. (s) Rjmer's Feeder, Vol 10. fol. 356. King 1 2 The Precedency of the King of France, concerning the Retreat of the Englijh Army out of that Kingdom. (/) Among thofe Knighted at the Corona- tion of Edward V. the Irijh Earl of Ormond had Precedency before the Lords Sutton, Grey of Rut ben, and other Englijh Lords. («) In 1484, in the Ratification of the Treaty between King Richard III. and the Crown of Portugal, the Scotch Earl of Douglas figned next to the Englijh Earl of Salop, and before the Lords Audley and Stanley. (x) In the 9th of Henry VII. 1497, ^*" mas Earl of Ormond, being fummoned only as an Englijh Baron, did neverthelefs take Place of all the Englijh Barons of older Creation. And of the fame Nature there are many other Inftances. ( v) At an Interview between King Henry VIII. and the French King, the Irijh Earl of Kildare took Place of all the Englijh Peers of inferior Quality. (z) Among the Knights of the Bath, made at the Coronation of King Edward VI. Fe- (t) Hiftory of the Order of the Bath, by John ^Lnjtis % Garter King at Arms. (») Rymer's Foeder. (x) Rolls of Parliament. (y) FUdes's Hiftory of Cardinal Wblfey. (z) Hiftory of the Knights of the Bath, ut fupra. bruary Peers o/Ireland. 13 bruary the 20th, 1546, the lrijh Earl of Ormond was placed next after the Earl of Oxford, and before the Lords Maltravers, Talbot, Strange, Herbert, Lyjle, Cromwell, Haftings, &c. {a) In a Letter from the Council, notify- ing the Death of Queen Elizabeth to the Lord Ewre, and the reft of the Commif- fioners for negotiating the Treaty of Br erne, the lrijh Earls of Kildare and Clanrickard figned immediately after the Earl of Lincoln, and before the Lords Howard, London, Dela- were, &c. (b) At the Funeral of Queen Elizabeth, the Marchionefs of Northampton was Chief Mourner, fupported by the Lord Treafurer and the Earl of Nottingham ; her Train was borne by the Countefs of Oxford and the Counters of Northumberland, affifted by the Vice-Chamberlain. There were fixteen Countefles affiftant to the Chief Mourner, among whom were the two lrijh Countefles of Kildare and Clanrickard, (a) Kymer's Foedera. (h) Manufcript Colle&ion of John Anfiis, Garter King at Arms. (0 At 14 *The Precedency of the (c) At the famous Jutting held at White- hall, by Henry Prince of Wales, in 1609, the Lord Gordon, Son to the Scotch Marquis of Huntley, was marfhalled, according to his Degree of Quality, immediately after the Earl of EJfex, and before the Englijh Ba- rons, Waldon, Monteagle, Chandois, and Compton. (d) Among the Knights of the Bath, elected on the 2d of June, 16 10, George Lord Gordon, Son and Heir to the Scotch Marquis of Huntley, was placed before the Lords Clifford and Fitzwalter, Sons and Heirs of the Englijh Earls of Cumberland and Suffex. The Lords Hay and Ereskine, Sons and Heirs to the Scotch Earls of Athol and Mar, were placed before the Lords Wind/or and Wentworth. Sir Francis Steward, fe- cond Son to the Scotch Earl of Murray, and Sir William Steward, eldeft Son to the Scotch Lord Blantyre, before the eldeft Sons of the Englijh Barons Dudley and Hunfdon, Ger- rard and Stanhope : Sir Edward Bruce, eldeft Son to the Scotch Lord Kinlofs, before Sir J {c ) Manufcript, Sir "Richard St. George's brown cover'd Book, fol. 53 — 29. penes Comit. deEgmont. (/) Hiftory of the Knights of the Bath. William Peers ^Ireland. 15 William Sidney, fecond Son to the Englijh Vifcount Lijle ; and Mervin Touchett, fe- cond Son to the Irijh Earl of Cajllehaven, before Sir Peregrine Bertu, fecond Brother to the Earl of Lindfay. (?) At the Funeral of Queen Anne of Denmark, Wife to King James I. the Scotch Marquis of Hamilton had Place immediately after the Marquis of Buckingham, and be- fore the Earl of Oxford j and the Irijh Earls of Clanrickard and Cajllehaven, had Prece- dence in the Proceflion next after the Earl of Devon/hire, and before the Vifcounts, and the reft of the Englijh Nobility. (f) The Scotch Countefs of Hume, and the Irijh Countefs of Kildare, had likewife Place after the Countefs of Devon/hire, be- fore the Lady Dawbenny, and all the Englijh Nobility of inferior Rank. (g) The Lady Ophalia,Wife to theeldeft Son of the Earl of Kildare, had likewife Place according to her Quality in that Pro- ceflion. And the Servants of the Countefs of KiU (e) Heralds Office, Funerals of Kings and Princes J. 4. (/) Ibid. U) Ibi* dare 1 6 The Precedency of the dare did alfo walk in the Procefiion among the Servants of the Englijh Peers. (h) At the Creation of Charles Prince of Wales, afterwards King Charles I. the 4th of November , the 1 4th of James I. at Wejl- minfier ; There was a Conteft raifed concerning the marfhalling the Witnefles or Teftes to the Patent of the Prince of Wales, Sir George Copping, Clerk of the Crown, refufing to fet them down without the Approbation of the Marftials. The QuefKon was fubdivided into three : I. Whether the Earl of Arundel, being Marfhal for the Day, fhould fign as Marfhal or as an Earl according to his Antiquity. II. Whether the Scotch Duke of Lenox, being Earl of Richmond in England y mould fign, with Precedency, as Duke of Lenox, a Foreign Title, or as Earl of Richmond. III. Whether the Sons of Earls, who were Barons by Writ or Patent, mould hold their Places as Vifcounts, according to their Birth, or as Barons, according to their Places in Parliament. (h) Sir 'Richard St. George's Colle&ion of Patents and Creations, penes Com. de Egmont, fol. 37. dorlb,& 74- As Peers of Irzl an b. ij As to the firft Queftion, it was declar'd, that the Earl of Arundel mould have Place as Marfhal. As to the fecond and third Queftion, it was declar'd ; I. That the faid Duke of Lenox mould fign with Precedency as a Duke, 7 though by a Foreign Title, and an HonOur merely ti- tular in England. II. That the eldeft Sons of Earls, though Barons of Parliament, mould have Prece- dence by the titular Honour of Vifcounts, and not as Barons. Forafmuch as fuch Peers, though they fit and have Precedence in Par- liament according to their Baronies ; yet at large, and at all other Meetings, they ought to have Place according to ; the Dignity of their Birth and Title. And accordingly the faid Scotch Duke of Lenox took Place of all the Englijh Earls, and the Scotch Vifcount Fenton of all the Englijh Bifhops and Barons with like Prece- dency to all the reft, according to this De- termination. (h) On Friday the 24th of March 1620, (b) Herald's Office, m. 3. p. 1619. Funerals of Kings 2nd Princes. € there 1 8 The Precedency of the there was a grand Tournament ; the Pro- cemon began from Denmark Houfe in the Strand : Prince Charles, who was one of the Juftors, went firft, followed according to their feveral Precedencies by the reft of the Combatants ; viz. next to the Prince, the Marquis of Buckingham, Earl of Lincoln and Dorfet j and then the IriJJj Earl of Defmond before the Englifi Lords, Walden, Campion, Scroope and Gerard. (/) In an Acl: of Council, made on occa- lion of a Petition of Ralph Brooke, the He- rald, at Whitehall, the 7th of 'December 1622, the Irijh Vifcount Grandifon iign'd imme- diately after the Lord Chamberlain, and be- fore the Englijh Baron Brooke , the Treafurer and Comptroller of the Houfhold, the Se- cretary of State, the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer, and the Mafter of the Rolls. (k) In a Commiffion appointed concerning the Afliftance of the Low Countries, and the Security of Ireland, the Irijh Vifcount Gran- difon is ranked before the Lords Carew and Brooke. (i) St. George's Book, brown Cover, fol. 98, penes Comit. Egmont. (k) PuL,lickA&s, 1624. In Peers ) Among the Knights of the Bath, made (/) Publick Adts, 1624. (;//) Ibid. 1625. (») Ibid, and Wilfon's Inft. of King James. (9) In the Herald's Office. if) Hiftory of the Knighcs of the Bath, ut fupra. C z at 20 The Precedency of the at the Coronation of King Charles I. 1625, George Fielding, Vifcount Callan in Ireland-. fecond Son to the Earl of Denbigh, had Pre- cedency in the Creation of the Lord Bazil Fielding, his elder Brother, Son and Heir to the faid Earl, and alfo of the el deft Sons of the Efiglijh Earls of Derby, Salisbury, Mont- gomery, Warwick, Carlijle, Bolingbroke and Wejlmorland. (q) At another Tournament upon the gd of March 1629, which, according to the Words of the Book, was had in the moil princely manner that had been feen for many Years before, the Iriflj Earl of Dejmond was one of the Tilters. There were two Mar- quifes, feven Earls, and two Barons j the faid Earl of Dejmond followed immediately after the Earl of Warwick, and before the Lords Walden and Gerard. (r) At the Funeral of King Charles II. the 14th of February 1684, the Nobility of the three Kingdoms walked in ProcefTion, ac- cording to the Precedency before obferved. (s) At the publick Entry of K.William III. thro' London to the Palace of Whitehall, on (?) Herald's Office, m. \\ fol. 2 6. (r) Ibid. . U) Ibid. Tikings, m 3. Tuefday Peers ^Ireland, 21 'J'uefday the 16th of November 1697, the Nobility of England, Scotland and Ireland, were marfhalled according to their refpective Precedencies. In the fame Reign they frequently afTerted and maintained their Rights in Proceffions made to St. Pauls, on account of the Suc- ceffes of the Englijh Arms. (/) At the Funeral of King William, the Irijh Peers walked as fuch, and took Place of all Englijh Peers of inferior Quality ; among others the Lord Vifcount Windfor, not then a Peer of England^ had Place of all the Englijlo Barons. (u) At the Funeral of the late Queen Anne the Irijh Peers walked as fuch ; and the Irijh Earls took Place of the Englifi Vifcounts, Barons, &c. m that Proceffion. The Earl of Arran, being alfo an Englijh Baron, had Place as an Earl, as had alfo the Earl of Bcllamont, and his Lady had Mourning fent to her to walk as a Countefs. During the Reign of that Queen, there were repeated Exercifes of this Privilege in numerous Proceffions of the fame Nature • ■ ■ (/). Herald's Office. [u) Ibid. with 2 z The Precedency of the with thofe before obferved on account of the feveral Thankfgiyings for our Victories abroad. In the laft grand Inftance of publick Ce- remony, viz. that folemn Proceffion from Greenwich to London, upon the firft Arrival of his late Majefty, of Glorious Memory, King George the Firft, the Peers of Ire- land (x) were marfhalled according to their refpective Degrees of Quality, with Prece- dency over all the Englifi Peers of inferior Rank. Finally, That as to Precedents of this kind, they are almoft innumerable ; the Charter Rolls in the Tower, from the earlier!: Times ; the Books of the Council ; and the Originals of publick Inftruments of all Sorts, containing Proofs fufficient to fill whole Vo- Jumes, if it were necefTary to collect them. " Your Majefty 's Peers of Ireland beg y Leave to obferve farther : " That their not walking at the Corona- tion here, cannot be drawn in Argument againft their eftablifhed Right to walk in other Proceflions ; fince the Peers of Eng- (x) Earl MarfhaPs printed Order, and the Books cf the Office of Arms. land, Peers ^/Ireland, 23 land, in that Cafe, walk as Members of the Legiflature of England. That the Irijh Peers do not walk, nor ever did walk, as Peers, at the Coronation of their Kings, for this Reafon, that no King is crowned as King of Ireland -, an Act of Parliament having been made in Ireland, in the Reign of King Henry VIII. by which, whoever is crowned King of England ', is de- clared to be, ipfo fadlo, King of Ireland \ without further Ceremony. And that before that Act had patted, there never had been any Coronation in that King- dom, the Kings of England being then in- verted with no other Title than that of Lords of Ireland. That on all other folemn and publick Oc- cafions, of which any Traces of Remem- brance do yet continue, they have ever been allowed the Precedency contended for. That in the Cafe of Weddings, the Matter cannot be evinced otherwife, than by a Parity of Reafoning ; fince there has been no publick Wedding in the Royal Family, of which any Account doth now remain upon Record, fo far as it has been yet difcovered. C 4 Tc 24 3*b e Precedency of tha To this muft be added, that in all Acts of the Legiflature, the Peers of Ireland have been, and are named with the Precedency here mentioned. And in all AAs of Parlia- ment, the Englijh Lords are ever ranked be- neath the Irijh of fuperior Quality ; and where an Englijh Lord has a fuperior Title in Ireland, he is always known, ftyled, and ranked by the Title of his Irijh Honour. (x) That the Houfe of Commons of Great Britain, notwithftanding the Service of the Irijh Peers in that Houfe, do receive them, when any Affair requires their Prefence, (and they are not Members of that Affembly) with the fame Refpecl that they mew to an Englijh Peer on the like Occafion, permit- ting them Chairs to feat themfelves upon within thenar, and in the Body of the Hqufe j as may be feen in their Journals upon feveral Occafions, particularly in the Cafe of the Earl of Corke, in the Reign of K. James I. That in all publick Entries of Ambaffa- dors, the Irijh Peers have preceded accord- ing to their Degree of Quality, taking Place of the inferior Order of the En^li/h. (x) Journal of the Houfe of Commons, Jac. I. That Pjeers ©/"Ireland. ge That Irijh Peers have ever carried the till about the latter End of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth, when a Difpute arifing in Ireland concerning Place, between the Lord Audley, fecond Baron of England, and the Barons of Ireland, none of them would yield it to him. Upon which the Lord Audley made Application to the Queen, who told him, " That it was in her Tower to " give s 6 The Precedency of the " give him Precedency y but that it was not 41 in her Power to deprive others of it :** And foon after created him Earl of Caftle- haven in Ireland. (y) The next Difference that happened upon this Subject was in 162 1, when the Prerogative having been exercifed in creating Peers, both Englijh^ Scotch and Irijh y in fuch a manner as to have caufed very great Complaints, both with refpect to the Num- bers made, and the Perfons fo created; and the Englijh Barons imagining, in particular, that they fuffered great Diminution of Honour and Refpect from the many of Englijhmen who had procured Titles in Ireland and Scotland, took the Matter under Confe- deration, and prefented a Petition to King 'James I. figned by 33 Barons, which was ^delivered by the Lord Defpenctr. (z) In this Petition they only objected to •the Scotch and Jrijb Vifcounts, and took care to diftinguifh between the Peers of Scotland and Ireland y who had Eftates in either King- dom, and levelled their Complaint only againft (y) Camden's Anmls. (&) Camden's Annals. thofe Peers o/Ireland. 27 thofe who had no Fortunes where they en-, joy'd their Titles. (a) Mr. Camden relates, That the King gave no immediate Anfwer to this Petition, relenting it in the higher! Degree ; and be- ing in particular extremely angry with the Lord Defpencer, for prefuming to offer any thing of that Nature to him. But, after three Days, the Barons were ordered to wait upon the King ; a few of them only were admitted, who kifs'd his Hand, and were feverely reprimanded ; and the King faid, tor thefe, as ror the " Peers of the Realm, and Scotifte and iriflie. " are deprived of thofe Priviledges and Imu- " nities that Barons have ; and yet there pf is no Diminution of their Precedency, and i4 Titles of Honor: For they have Place " above all Barons, notwithstanding they " are no Peers of the Kingdom. " f What jo The Precedency of the jy;The Difference " f (d) What Priviledges ^cStaS " the Lawcs of the Land both the Houfes of « may C onferr upon Barons Parliament, for con- ' . , r ferring of Honor. " of this Kingdom is not in k ihZr 1 ^ Shall the Aire or Diuerfitie of the " Climate fo eclipfe his Dignitie, as he muft 4< yealdtofuch a prepofterous Inconvenience, yet when they have " Domicilium here, it is not fit it fhould % be granted unto them, left the Courtefy " do become a Cuftom." IV. * His Majefty, by his Letters Pa- £ ii a a 42 The Precedency of the *' Neighbours giving no Value to fuch when Cc not dignified with the Peerage." III. " That the Right is evident by your and Envy of the Earl of Shaftef- bury, and others of the Cabal, at the Greatnefs of lbme of the Irijh Noblemen, as the Duke of Ormond, the Earl of Anglefea, &c. His Reflections and Account of this Matter may well deferve to be read ; but that Detail would be unneceffary here. It is fufficient to take Notice of the Principle upon which this Con^ teft arofe, and of the many farther Confe- quences that attended on it ; from whence Men may be led to inquire, whether the prefent Dif- pute may not be grounded likewife upon the fame vain Motives, and whether it may not be followed again by the like pernicious Effects. But Peers o/Ireland. 47 But to come clofer to the Point, we mall particularly confider the Reafons reported by the Earl of Bollingbroke in 1667. The flrft of which was grounded upon a Statute faffed the 31/ of Henry VIII. by which a Settlement of Precedency was made the only one that ever was made by Aft of Parlia- ment. The Statute here mentioned can never bear relation to the Point in Queftion, becaufe the Peerage neither of Ireland or Scotland are mentioned in it And yet it is notorious, that for many Centuries before that Aft was made, the Peerage of Ireland and Scotland enjoyed that Right, for which the former now contend. It is further notorious, that the Peers of Ireland were from the Time of that Aft, to this Period, itill main- tained in the fame Privileges, without fo much as a Angle Difpute upon this Head be- tween the two Nations, except in the Cafe of the Lord Audley before-mentioned j a thing which could not have happened, if there had ever been before that Time the leaft Doubt concerning the Interpretation of it The very making of that Aft, without any Notice taken of the Pretenfions of the Irijh Peer, 48 The Precedency of the Peers, is the itrongeft. Proof, that they were then looked upon as inconteflable ; for that was the natural Time to have fettled this Matter, if it had not been thoroughly fixed before. But tho' a new Difcovery mould be made in this Age, that any thing were contained in it, which might now feem to render the Queftion dubious, even in fuch a Circumftance the Peers of Ireland would have an invincible Plea from Prescription, and from the conflant Cuftom from that Period, which is furely the bell: Interpreter of Law. Lajlly, This A& appears evi- dently to be no-way concerned in the general Bufinefs of Precedency, but fingjy relative to the Ranking of the great Officers of State, the Crown having often fince that Act exer- cifed the prerogative of giving Precedency to later Peers over the more antient, as in the Cafe of Howard Earl of Nottingham, in the Reign of James I. and other Inftances, which we have cited before in the Schedule annexed to the Memorial. The 2d Reafon that this Statute is in Force in Parliament, in the 'St \a\ '-Chamber ; and in all other Peers ^/"Ireland. 49 other Ajfemblies and Conferences in Council, is partly true, and partly falfe. That it has Force in Parliament is clear, nor can it be difputed by the Peers of Ireland, becaufe they come not thither. That it is in Force alfo in all AfTemblies, &c. is likewife true ; but in both Cafes only in this Senfe, as it relates to the Englifo Peers among them- felves, and among them only with refpecl: to the great Officers of the Crown. That it does not affect the Precedency of the Irijh Peers in the ArTemblies there mentioned, is evident from the Records now remaining of the Star-Chamber, and from the Books of the Council in a Multitude of Inftances. I need only mention one, which occurs among the Papers cited here, where you will find in a Council held upon this very Subject, 28 jfune y 4 Car. I. 1629. that the Scotcb Earls of Kelly and Morton took place of the Vifcount Dorchejier, and that the Irijh Vif- counts Grandifon and JViltnot took place alfo before the Bifhops of London and Winchejler, and the EngliJJj Barons Savill and Newburgh. As to the 3d Reafon contained in this Re- port, it gives up intirely the Qucftion of E antient jo The Precedency of the antient ufage ; for it is acknowledged, That the Civility of Precedency hath been in Cour- tejy permitted by the Peers of England to the Foreign Nobility, when they come to attend on his Majefty here-, and tho they feem to allow this reafonable for a fiort time y yet when they have Domicilium here, they think it not ft it Jhould be granted to them, left the Courtefy do become a Cuftom. The Peers of England feem to affume in this Place a very whimfical Authority j That their Civility has been the only Foundation of the Precedency enjoyed by the Iri/h Peer- age. This kind of Infinuation is very inju- rious to the Royal Dignity j for tho 5 they apply to the Crown with a feeming Modefty for an Abolition of that Precedency, it is very evident, that if they be allowed to have created that Precedency themfelves, the Inference is natural enough, that they might take it away themfelves $ and if the Premijes were yielded, the Confequence would be very probably de- duced upon the firft favourable Opportunity. Not to make Refle&ions upon the avowed Declenfion of Politenefs in the Englijh Nobi- lity of this Age, from that of their Fore- fathers, furely nothing can be more fan- taftical Peers o/Ireland, 51 taftical than this Affectation, that the Peers of Ireland are. indebted to them only for the Pre- cedency they enjoy. I could venture to an- fwer for that Body, that if they underftood it in this Light, they would refign it readily enough. But no Record as yet appears, by which they granted to them this great Favour. If there is any, it is more antient than the Magna Chart a of King 'John ; for at that Time, the Peers of Ireland enjoy 'd this Right, as it is evidently proved by the Schedule of Precedents annex cl. The Truth of the Cafe is this, that they hold it primarily from the Handing Laws of Honour, which prevail over the whole civi- liz'd World, (a) La Roque, an eminent Writer, in his Treatife of Nobility, tells us, That celui qui eft noble en un lieu, eft noble partout, puifque la Qualite de I Homme neft pas plus indivifible que fa propre fubftance, & qu'il eft de la bienfeance, & de Vutiliti pour lentretein de la Societe des Hommes de reconnoitre chezfoi laNoblefte d'unEtr anger: Which is, rt That a Nobleman in one Place ' ' is a Nobleman in another Place, and it is (a) La Roque, Traire de la Noblefie, \*o. Cbap. lxxvi. fol. 230. E 2 " agreeable 3 2 The Precedency of the " agreeable to general Convenience, and ne- H ceflary for the good Governance of Society, " mutually to allow the Pre-eminence of the " Nobility of Foreign Countries/' He fays farther, que la Noblejfe eft une Qualite adherent e a la Perfonne, qui fe porte par tout : Co? turn, non am mum mutant, qui trans mare currunt j £C Nobility is a Quality inhe- tl rent to the Perfon not with {landing any " Change of Place or Country." The Peers of England, from the Nature of their Office of hereditary Judges, ought to be well informed in the Laws of Nature and Nations, and in the Civil Law, as well as in that of their own Country. If they con- fuft the Civil Law, they will find, that the Nobility of a Foreign Country are in all Parts of Europe received with fuch a De- gree of RefpecT:, that they are even allowed the Place before the Nobility of their own Rank abroad. Thus a Foreign Baron is treated as a Vifcount, and a Vifcount as an Earl, out of their own refpective Countries. This Rule is conftantly obferved in all Ceremonials, info- much that if any Prince fhould charge an Officer of Arms with a Commiffion to a Fo- reign Court, that Officer, if a Purfuivant, will Peers ^Ireland, 53 will be received as an Herald ; if an Herald, as a King at Arms. The Civil Law is the Rule of all Matters of this Nature in all Nations, where the Law of the particular Land does not oppofe it. And the Law of any particular Land is cither Pqfitive or Prescriptive. As it appears therefore, that the matter of Precedency is not in this Country regulated by any pqfitive Law, mould the prefcriptive Law contended for by the Irijh Peers, be not allowed to have its Force, the Civil Law will intervene, and the Peers of England will unwarily eftablifh a Precedency in favour of the IriJJj Peerage far more injurious to themfelves according to their Eftimation of the Thing. For whereas the Peers of Ireland now claim only a Right of Precedency, before thole of the inferior Orders of Nobility in England, if that Claim mould be denied, they will in- ftantly become intitled by the general Law of Nations to Precedency in England, even above all the Englifi Nobility of their re- fpedlive Degrees. It feems fomewhat extraordinary, that the Point of confiant Ufage mould be in this manner given up ; and then in the fame E 3 Breath, 54 'The Precedency of the Breath, that a Change of that Ufage in both Rations for fo many hundred Years mould be demanded upon fuch Reafons, as feem much more ftrongly to conclude, that this Privilege, if they had it not, mould be yielded to them, than for taking it away, now that they are actually in Pofleflion of it. If this Privilege was antiently permitted, when Eng- land diew no Profit from the Peerage of that Kingdom, the Argument feems of a very ftrange Nature, which urges their Depriva- tion of it, becaufe they have Domicilium here (as they term it) ; that is, becaufe they fpend 200,000 /. per Annum in this King- dom. As to the AfTertion of the Lords, That it is Jit to change this Ufage; Their Lordfhips might think fit perhaps at fome time or other, to engrofs the whole Le- giflative Power to themfelves, but it would certainly be no Reafon for their being fuffered to do it ; and it is a new Doctrine, that they are Judges of what is fit, and that they are to determine for themfelves in a Matter of this kind, which (if Prefcrip- tion be laid afide) is intirely the Bufinefs of Prerogative, and inconteflably vefted in the King. In Peers o/Ireland. 55 In the 4th Place, it is affirmed, That it would be a Deviation from the Law, and a high Difionour and Derogation to his Ma- jeftys Letters Patents, and the Nobility of this Kingdom, that they Jhould not enjoy thofe Privileges and Pre-eminencies contained in them, and Jo highly attefted and grounded on the Law of the Land* There is no Doubt, but that it would be a Dishonour to the Nobility of England, to be deprived of Pri- vileges and Pre-eminencies derived from the Law of the Land, and his Majeity's Patents. But where is the Precedency grounded on the Law of the Land, or any Precedency ex- clufive of the Peers of Ireland, but fuch as is mentioned in the Act of Henry VIII. which how far it reaches, we have fliewn ? And what Pre-eminency orPrecedency is contained in the Patents of the Englifi Peers, which are not equally contained in thofe of the Peers of Ireland alfo ? As to the Law of Prece- dency, it is nothing elfe than antient Cuftom and Prefcription, which, the famous Civilian Puffendorf afiures us (b) t is a fufficient Law to determine all Queftions of this Nature by. {b) Puffcndprf, Book viii. chap. 4. E4 This 56 The Precedency of the This Law is fully on the Side of the Irijh Peers, and the Derogation of that Law can never happen from maintaining the Peers of that Kingdom in their antient Rights : The contrary indeed would not only be a Dero- gation, but a flagrant Violation of it. As to the Honour of his Majefty's Letters Patents, if they are vindicated by the Crown, in per- mitting them ftill to continue to draw the fame Confequences that they have ever done, there can be no Violation of them. It is an old Doctrine of the Papifts, that Faith is not to be obferved with Hereticks; but it is a new one of the Peers of England \ that the Faith, 'Credit, and Honour of the Crown, may be freely proftituted with regard to the Irijh Na- tion. It is a Doctrine too that may draw pernicious Confequences hereafter to them- felves, as by it they undermine a Foundation common to the Fabrick of either Houfe of Peers. And it was in the firft Inftance of this Attempt, attended with Ill-conveniences naturally to be expected from it j for the Ba- ronets, tho' a new Order of Men, who had bought their Titles but a few Years before, encouraged by this new Notion ftarted by the Englijh Peers, that Precedency was not a Matter Peers ^Ireland. 57 Matter to be fettled by any Prefcription, in their Turn made an Attack upon the Englijh Peers themfelves, pretending to take place before the younger Sons of the Englijh Vif- counts and Barons ; and as monftrous as this Pretention appears in the firft View, it was attended with much Trouble to the Englijh Peers, before it was determined in their Fa- vour ; the King being pleafed that they fhould learn by their own Experience what ill Con- veniences arife from the Defire of fuch Inno- vations, in Matters fo long fettled and deter- mined by the Practice of former Ages, (a) Nor was this all ; for they were likewife attacked in the fame manner by the Knights of the Privy Council, who difputed the Precedency of the younger Sons of Englijh Earls (b) ; nay, the eldeft Sons of common Knights pretended to take place alfo before the eldeft Sons of the younger Sons of the Engliflj Barons. Thefe Contefts were carried on with fo much Heat and PafTion on both Sides, that it was fear'd many dangerous Quarrels would have (a) Sir Richard St. George\\ T d\\\m cover'd Book, penes Com. Egmont. (b) Sir Richard St. Georges Book of Ceremonies, penes jCom. Egmovty fol. 48. happen'd 58 The Precedency of the happen'd upon it : Infomuch that the King forbid either of the Parties from being prefent for fome time at any publick Ceremony, till the matter was determin'd, which tho' it was at laft, in favour of the Peers, it brought never- thelefs no fmall Mortification, and was no fmall Detriment to their Dignity, to be en- gaged in a Conteft of this kind with Perfons, who had till then been ever confidered fo many Degrees beneath them, and even their moft remote Pojlerity. It is afferted in the 5 th Place, That the Right of Precedency doth concern the Peers cf this Houfe, becaufe England is the Seat of the Englifh Empire, and without their Affent no Law can be made in this Realm. I fubmit it to your Lordfhip, whether there is any thing conclufive in this Argument ; The Right of Precedency particularly concerns the Englim Peers, becaufe no haw can be made in England without them. Does the Right of Precedency concern none but thofe who are Legiflators in England ? How came the great Officers of the Crown by their Pre- cedency ? How the Order of Baronets ? How that of the Knights ? And fo on to every Degree,, Peers ^Ireland. 59 Degree, of which there are many more who have their ftated Rules of Precedency as much confirmed to them, as to the greateft Peers of the Land. Their other Reafon, that England is the Seat of the Eng/i/h Empire, is of the fame kind, and is in Subftance an- fwcred by the fame Argument : But does the Seat of Empire affecl Precedency t Does the King's living in this Part of his Dominions, give the Peers of this Dominion a better Right to any one Privilege in the Nature of the Peerage ? If it does, they hold this Pri- vilege upon a precarious Tenure ; for it is in his Majefty's Breaft to inhabit any Par 1 of his Dominions that he (hall fee conveni- ent. That this Circumftance gives them in Confequence a greater Influence, is too vi- fible to be denied ; but that it gives them any Right to that Influence, is a long and difficult Work to prove. The Seat of his Majefty's Government is in or about Lon- don : Is my Lord St. 'John of Batterfea therefore to have Place of other Barons, becaufe the Place he derives his Title from is fituate near the Town ? Or is my Lord of Warwick^ as Baron of Kenfington, to have Precedency of all other Lords, becaufe the Court 60 The Precedency of the Court doth now inhabit the Seat of his Barony ? If by the Seat of Ertglijh Empire be un- derftood, that Ireland is a dependent King- dom, my Lord, this is a Difpute of a Na- ture too high and picquant to both Na- tions for me in a private Capacity to med- dle with ; but altho' it mould be a Truth of the moil inconteftable Nature, it would give no Force to this Pretention, becaufe there muft be fome Conditions in every De- pendence (which is not yet a State of downright Slavery) , and thefe Conditions, when they are not exprefs, are tacit, and then, only to be explained by the conftant Ufage , which Ufage is ftrong in Favour of the Irijh Peers. If by Dependance be under- ftood a Subjection to the Kingdom of England's allowing the Legality of that Subjection, fuch a general State does in no-wife necef- farily import the Subordination of Indivi- duals : The Crown, according to the Max. ims and Principles of the Revolution, de- rives its Power from the People, and is in- ferior tp them in a collective Body : By this Rule therefore, thefe noble Lords may as well Peers ^Ireland- 6 i well argue, that they ought to have Prece- dency of the King himfelf. But in fine, as to this Particular, howfo- ever this Matter of Superiority and Dignity in the Peerage of either Nation may be de- termined, or whether it be determined at all, it matters not ; the Thing is fufficiently de- cided without it, not only by the Practice of all former Ages, but by the Opinions of the beft, Civilians, and the moft judicious Writers. I mall only trouble your Lordmip with the Senfe of the great Author I have once before cited upon this Subject : (#) He fays, " That tho' it is unavoidable that one «« Office will be held as more honourable " than another, yet it is no Reafon that all " and every particular Perfon, entrufled in the ft more honourable Office, ftitfuld therefore " challenge Precedency from all and every " Perfon in the lefs honourable. It is fuffi- *' cient, that the higheft Perfon in the in- " ferior Office mould give Place to the firfl " in the fuperior, and he may ftill have Pre- c * ference to all who are in Subordination to (i thefirft." Again, he fays exprefly, " That fa) PufFendorff, lib. 8. cap. 4. " thp 62 The Precedency of the " the Dignity of an Office which a Man " bears in his own Commonwealth, gives " him no Right to prefer himfelf to the " Subjecls of a foreign State, who may " perhaps bear Offices which he in his own ff Country demands Precedence upon ; and " laftly, that becaufe Marks of Honour are -' * -L* ' . ■■■■ ■ :>%. i £ ■■■< \ ■ .. .■ •*! Peers o/Ireland. 71 in their Journals upon feveral Occafions, par- ticularly in the Cafe of the Earl of Corke, in the Reign of King James I. But to purfue this Matter further : It is beyond all Difpute, that the Peerage of Ire- land are under Cognizance of the Laws of England^ and by the fame Laws have various Privileges ; for fome of which I refer you to the Englijh Statute of the, 4th of Henry V. Chap. 6. in which there is fome Regulation of them. You may fee, moreover, in Dyers Reports, 15 Eliz. pag. 306. in Comptons Book of the Jurifdiction of Courts, fol. 23. That it is the Opinion of both thefe Lawyers, who were of the greateft Note in their re- fpeclive Times, 'That an Irifh Peer^ by the Laws of this Realm, is not triable here in Capital Cafes. And that able Man Mr. St. fohn (a), Solicitor General in the Time of Charles I. affirms the fame thing, in his Ar- gument before the Englijh Lords themfelves, upon prefenting the Bill of Attainder of the Earl of Strafford from the Commons j in which he makes a remarkable Diftin&ion of privilege in Favour of the Irijib Peerage, which I give you in his own Words : "It (a) Rufliworth's Colle&ions. F 4 "is y 2 H'he Precedency of the quam- quam armis pollerent, niji quod vicJos pro alienigenis arcebant ? At conditor nojier Ro- mulus tantum fapientia valuit, ut plerofque populos eodem die hoftes, dein cives habuerit. Advence in nos regnaverunt. Libertinorum Jiliis magifiratus mandari, non y ut plerique falluntur, repens y fed priori populo faclitatum eft. At cum Senonibus pugnavimus y fcilicet Folfci & Mqui nunquam adverfam nobis aciem jlruxere ? Capti a Gallisfumus,fed & Tufa's objides dedimus, & Samnitium jugumfubivi- tnus. Attamenji cunfla bella recenfeas, nul- lum breviore fpatio quam adverfus G alios con- fecJum, continua inde acjidapax. Jam mo- ribus, artibus, affinitatibus noftris mixti, aurum & opes fuas inferant potius, quam feparati habeant. Omnia, patres confer ipti, qua nunc vetujlijjima creduntur, novafuere. Plebeii magifiratus poft Patricios y Latini pojl Plebeios, cater arum Italia gentium poft La- tinos, hiveterafcit hoc quoque : & quod hodie exempli s tuemur y inter, exempla erit. " Claufus my own Anceftor was of Foreign ,£ Extra&ion, by Birth a Sabine, admitted " in Peers ^Ireland. 103 " in one Day a Citizen and Senator of Rome. " Thislnftance in my own Family, inftruds " me in the juft Method of conducting the u publick Intereft to Advantage, and teaches