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 E E P () R T 
 
 OP 
 
 THE C O M M I S S I O ]S^ E R 8 
 
 APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO 
 
 THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE 
 
 IN GREAT BRITAIN ; 
 
 TOGETHER WITH 
 
 THE APPENDIX. 
 
 Urfsnttrii to fiott i^ousr© of Uarliamait fiy <ffommanti of ?^rr i^amtv. 
 
 LONDON: 
 
 PRINTED BY GEORGE EDWARD EYRE AND WILLIAM SPOTTISWOODE, 
 
 PRINTERS TO THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MA,1ESTY. 
 
 FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. 
 50G7. 1 862,
 
 CONTENTS, 
 
 Page. 
 
 COMMISSION . - - , - - - - hi 
 
 REPOKT _-.--.--- V 
 
 APPENDIX - - - ' - - - - - - 1
 
 
 C M M I S S I N. 
 
 VICTORIA R. 
 
 2i;lCtOria, by the Grace of (iod, of the United Kingdom of Great l^ritain and 
 Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith. 
 
 Co Our right trusty and well-beloved Cousin and Councillor Charles Viscount 
 Eversley, Lieutenant-Colonel in the Hampshire Regimenc of Yeomanry Cavalry, and 
 one of Our Aides-de-Camp, with the rank of Colonel in the Yeomanry ; Our right trusty 
 and right well-beloved Cousin and Councillor Henry John Earl of Ducie, Captain 
 of Our Body-Guard of Yeomen of the Guard ; Our right trusty and well-beloved Cousin 
 Charles Stewart Viscount Hardinge, Lieutenant-Colonel in the Second Administrative 
 Battalion of Kent Rifle Volunteers ; Our trusty and well-beloved Francis Wemyss 
 Charteris Douglas, commonly called Lord Elcho, Lieutenant-Colonel in the Fifteenth 
 Middlesex Rifle Volunteers; Our right trusty and well-beloved Samuel Baron Overstone; 
 Our right trusty and well-beloved Councillor Edward Pleydell Bouverie ; Our trusty and 
 well-beloved Walter Barttelot Barttelot, Esquire, Lieutenant-Colonel in the Second 
 Administrative Battalion of Sussex Rifle Volunteers ; Our trusty and well-beloved Sir 
 Archibald Islay Campbell, Baronet, Lieutenant-Colonel in the First Lanarkshire Rifle 
 Volunteers ; Our trusty and well-beloved Sir George Augustus Wetherall, Lieutenant- 
 General of Our Forces, Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Order of the 
 Bath ; Our trusty and well-beloved Henry Eyre, Esquire, Major-General of Our Forces ; 
 Our trusty and well-beloved William Montague Scott McMurdo, Companion of the 
 Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Colonel in Our Army, Inspector-General of 
 Volunteers, and one of Our Aides-de-Camp ; Our trusty and well-beloved Adam Steuart 
 Gladstone, Esquire, Lieutenant-Colonel in the Fifth Lancashire Rifle Volunteers ; Our 
 trusty and well-beloved Edward William Venables Vernon Harcourt, Esquire, Major in 
 the Fourth Cinque Ports Artillery Volunteers, greeting : 
 
 SSlOtrf n^ it hath been humbly represented to Us that it is expedient that a Commis- 
 sion should Forthwith issue to inquire into the present condition of Our Volunteer Force 
 in Great Britain, and into the probability of its continuance at its existing strength, and 
 to report whether any Measures should be adopted for the purpose of increasing its 
 efficiency as an auxiliary Means of National Defence. 
 
 ^OlD Know ye that We, having taken into Our consideration the premisses, do hereby 
 nominate and appoint you, the said Charles Viscount Eversley, Henry John Earl of 
 Ducie, Charles Stewart Viscount Hardinge, Francis Wemys Charteris Douglas, com- 
 monly called Lord Elcho, Samuel Baron Overstone, Edward Pleydell Bouverie, Walter 
 Barttelot Barttelot, Sir Archibald Islay Campbell, Sir George Augustus Wetherall, 
 Henry Eyre, William Montague Scott McMurdo, Adam Steuart Gladstone, and Edward 
 William Venables Vernon Harcourt, to inquire into these Matters. 
 
 3ntl it is Our further will and pleasure that you, or any Seven or more of you, do 
 obtain information touching the Matters aforesaid, by the examination of all Persons 
 most competent, by reason of their knowledge and experience, to afford it, and also by 
 calling for all Documents, Papers, or Records which may appear to you, or any Seven or 
 more of you, calculated to assist your researches and to promote the formation of a 
 sound judgment on the subject, and that you, or any Seven or more of you, do report 
 
 A 2 
 
 ^ o^n^r.-n
 
 IV 
 
 to Us, under your Hands and Seals, your several proceedings by virtue of this Our 
 Commission, together with your opinions touching the several Matters hereby referred 
 for your consideration. 
 
 ^lllJ We will and command, and by these presents ordain, that this Our Commission 
 shall continue in full force and virtue, and that you, Our said Commissioners, or any 
 Seven or more of you, may from time to time proceed in the execution thereof, and of 
 every Matter and thing therein contained, although the same be not continued from time 
 to time by adjournment. 
 
 Sntl i'or your assistance in the due execution of these presents. We have made choice 
 of Our trusty and well-beloved Thomas Frederick Wetherell, Esquire, to be Secretary to 
 this Our Commission, and to attend you, of whose services and assistance We require you 
 to avail yourselves from time to time, as occasion may require. 
 
 Given at Our Court at Bahnoral, this Sixteenth Day of May, in the year 
 of Our Lord One thousand eight hundred and sixty-two, and in the 
 Twenty -fifth Year of Our Reign. 
 
 By Her Majesty's Command. 
 
 G. C. LEWIS.
 
 R E P R T. 
 
 TO THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY. 
 
 We Your Mnjesty's Commissioners appointed to inquire into the pi-esent condition of 
 the Volunteer Force in Great Britain, and into the probability of its continuance at its 
 present strength, and to report whether any measures should be adopted for the purpose 
 of increasing its efficiency as an auxiliary means of national defence, do most humbly 
 report to Your Majesty as follows :- 
 
 In entering upon the task confided to us under Your Majesty's commands, we deemed 
 it right in the first place to take steps for ascertaining the actual condition of the 
 Volunteer Force at the present time ; and for that purpose, as well as to obtain other 
 requisite information, we addressed a series of questions to every commanding officer of 
 Volunteers in Great Britain, and we also examined such witnesses as we believed to 
 be well acquainted with the subject. 
 
 The information thus sought has been readily afforded to us. The actual number of 
 enrolled members of the force on the 1st of April 1862 was 162,681, of whom 662 were 
 light horse, 24,363 artillery, 2,904 engineer, 656 mounted rifle, and 134,096 rifle 
 volunteers ; of the rifle volunteers 48,796 were organized in 86 consolidated battalions, 
 and 75,535 in 134 administrative battalions ; and we are much gratified in being enabled 
 to state that the present condition of the Volunteer Force is, generally speaking, 
 satisfactory, and we believe that by steady perseverance in the course hitherto pursued, 
 and by due discipline, it will be a valuable auxiliary to the British Army as a means of 
 national defence. 
 
 On its first formation this force received considerable assistance from honorary 
 members of corps, officers, and others, and the funds so raised have been for the most 
 part expended in the establishment of head-quarters, drill grounds, rifle ranges, &c., and 
 in the purchase of clothing and equipments. The current annual expenses of corps 
 have generally been met by subscriptions from their own members. 
 
 The time, however, is approaching when the uniforms Avill require to be renewed, and 
 as there is reason to apprehend that the honorary subscriptions and donations may not 
 be maintained at their present amount, the cost of new uniforms, and the subscriptions 
 necessary to defray the annual expenses of corps are together felt to be a burden, the 
 pressure of which will seriously affect the force by causing a large diminution of its 
 numbers. 
 
 Under these circumstances, we have had great difficulty in arriving at a conclusion, 
 both with regard to the amount of the aid required and the mode in which it ought to 
 be administered, owing to the great discrepancy of opinion on this point which the 
 evidence has brought under our notice. 
 
 Several witnesses, whose opinions are deserving of attention, deprecate any grant in 
 money, and recommend that whatever assistance is afforded should be in kind. Others 
 recommend a grant varying from 12.?. to 505., and even moi'e for every effective. 
 
 After a careful consideration of the whole subject we have come to the conclusion that 
 it is expedient that some further assistance in aid of the volunteer movement should be 
 rendered by the Government, but it is essential in our judgment that whatever aid 
 may be so granted should be strictly regulated with reference to the real efficiency of the 
 force. 
 
 As the most expedient way of carrying out this principle, under existing circumstances, 
 we recommend : — 
 
 That there should be a grant from the Government of 20.9. per man for every 
 light horse, engineer, mounted rifle, and rifle volunteer, who can produce a certificate, 
 according to a form to be prescribed by the Secretary of State, signed by the 
 commanding officer and adjutant of his corps, or by the commanding officer and 
 adjutant of the administrative battalion to which his corps belongs, that he has 
 attended nine drills, six of which in the case of a consolidated battalion, and three 
 of which in the case of an administrative battalion, should be battalion or troop 
 
 A 3
 
 yi REPOUT OF THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED TO INQUIKE INTO 
 
 drills, in the course of the preceding twelve months ; that he is efficient in drill, 
 has been fully instructed in the manual and platoon exercise, and, in addition to 
 the above drills, has gone through a course of musketry instruction to be laid 
 down by the Secretary of State; and also that he was present on parade (unless 
 absent by leave of his commanding officer with the approval of the Secretary of 
 State) on the day of inspection; and an additional grant of 10i\ per man for 
 every volunteer who can produce a similar certificate that he has fired a certain 
 amount of ball cartridge, according to regulations to be laid down by the Secretary 
 of State. 
 
 That in the case of a recruit 30 drills, including a short course of musketry instruc- 
 tion, should be substituted for the drills already enumerated, in order to qualify 
 him for receiving such certificate. 
 
 That a power should be reserved to the inspecting officer to disallow the certificate 
 of an}^ man or body of men whose inefficiency may be manifest on parade. 
 
 That the existing definition of an effective should be repealed. 
 
 That divisional or brigade field days and official inspections should not be reckoned 
 in the number of drills above specified. 
 
 That every rifle should be seen and examined once a year by a person appointed 
 by the Government, and that no corps should be entitled to receive any portion 
 of the Government grant for any member whose rifle is reported in an 
 unserviceable state through neglect. 
 
 That officers commanding volunteer corps, or administrative battalions. In the 
 event of such corps or battalions obtaining further aid from Government, should 
 be permitted to expend the grant under the following heads :— 
 
 Head quarters. 
 
 Drill grounds. 
 
 Care and repair of arms. 
 
 Ranges. 
 
 Clothing and accoutrements. 
 
 Cost of conveyance to and from battalion and brigade drill, and rifle practice. 
 
 Forage for serjeant instructor's horse in the case of mounted corps. 
 That in the case of artillery volunteers a farther grant, beyond that already made 
 by the Government, of 305. per man should be made for every man who can 
 produce a certificate signed by the commanding officer and adjutant of his corps, 
 or by the commanding officer and adjutant of the administrative brigade to 
 which his corps belongs, that he has attended twelve gun drills in the course 
 of the preceding twelve months ; has been present at the gun practice of his 
 battery, and is an efficient gunner; also that he was present on parade (unless 
 absent by leave of his commanding officer with the approval of the Secretary of 
 State) on the day of inspection. During the first year of service attendance at 
 30 drills, of which 24 should be gun drills, should be substituted for the conditions 
 above enumerated. 
 
 In the event of such further aid being obtained, commanding officers should be 
 permitted to expend the grant under the following heads : — 
 
 Head quarters. 
 
 Drill grounds. 
 
 Care and repair of arms. 
 
 Construction of expense magazines. 
 
 Store rooms. 
 
 Gun and drill sheds. 
 
 Expenses incidental to target practice. 
 
 Articles for repository exercises. 
 
 Cost of conveyance of men and guns, on duty. 
 
 Accoutrements and clothing. 
 That in the event of any corps being desirous of expending the whole or any 
 portion of the Government grant in clothing, sealed patterns of colour applicable 
 to the four branches of the service should be issued, to which such corps should be 
 required to conform. 
 That all corps in the recelp,': of the Government grant should be required to adopt 
 accoutrements approved by the Secretary of State, and all corps belonging to 
 administrative battalions to adopt such colour as the Lord Lieutenant shall direct.
 
 THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. Vl; 
 
 That in addition to all other allowances, a sum not exceeding 4.v. per head per annum 
 for each member who has been certified as efficient, in any corps where the head- 
 quarters arc distant beyond five miles from the place of mectina,- of the adminis- 
 trative battalion to which it belongs, should be granted to the commanding officer 
 of the battalion in aid of the expenses of conveying the members of such corps to 
 battalion drills. 
 
 That the adjutant should be responsible to the War Office, in the event of his 
 being employed to act as paymaster, for all sums received on account of such 
 corps, and for their having been expended strictly according to regulation, and 
 that he should be put on the same footing as an adjutant of disembodied militia. 
 
 A witness of long and distinguished service in the Army, who is now the adjutant of 
 an administrative battalion in the midland counties, has spoken in strong terms of the 
 inefficiency of many of the drill instructors attached to volunteer corps ; and he has 
 susrsrested that a school of drill instructors should be formed, somewhat on the same 
 principle as the School of Musketry at Hythe. We consider this suggestion deserving 
 the attention of Your Majesty's Secretary of State ; but in the meantime we recommend 
 that special provision should be made for training non-commissioned officers as drill 
 instructors, and that all drill instructors sliould be attested to serve for a period of three 
 years. 
 
 We also recommend that the drill instructors at present attached to corps in an 
 administrative battalion should as soon as possible be placed under the orders of the 
 officer commanding the battalion, who should have the same power and authority when 
 visiting any corps of his battalion for the purpose of inspection as he now exercises at a 
 battalion parade. 
 
 The system now in operation, under which officers appointed by the Secretary of State 
 to inspect volunteer corps examine and report upon the coinpetenc}-, or otherwise, of 
 officers and non-commissioned officers of the corps so inspected, such examination being 
 conducted in the field, and all cases of marked incompetency being brought confidentially 
 to the notice of the Secretaiy of State, is of essential importance, and ought to be strictly 
 maintained. 
 
 We recommend that in order to aflbrd to volunteers every possible assistance in 
 acquiring a more perfect knowledge of drill and of our military system, and with the view 
 of promoting that cordiality and feeling of confidence in each other, which would be of 
 vital importance to the regular troops and volunteers in co-operating against an enemy, 
 volunteer corps should, wherever practicable, be united with troops of the line for 
 exercise and instruction, as alreadj^ sanctioned by the Secretary of State with the 
 concurrence of the General Commanding-in-Chief. 
 
 We have much satisfaction in reporting that arrangements have been made in some 
 parts of the kingdom between officers commanding corps of artillery volunteers and the 
 farmers, gentry, and others, for obtaining a supply of horses and oxen, when requisite, 
 for the purpose of moving guns of position, free of expense to the Government ; 
 and we are of opinion that such arrangements should be encouraged and extended 
 wherever possible. 
 
 We have also been informed that there are a number of men on the sea coast and in 
 various parts of the country, who are desirous of learning their drill at ship's guns, but 
 who are ineligible for the Royal Naval Reserve ; and we think such men should be 
 encouraged to avail themselves of any opportunities offered them by the Admiralty of 
 acquiring a knowledge of ship gun drill, and should be embodied in the existing batteries 
 of artillery volunteers on the coast. 
 
 It appears in evidence that numerous cadet corps have been established in connexion 
 with volunteer corps, and public and other schools, and we suggest that, having regard to 
 the future strength and permanence of the Volunteer Force, encouragement should be 
 given to the formation of such cadet corps. 
 
 We also think it desirable, that those corps which are fit for it should take part 
 occasionally, in brigade and divisional field days ; but evidence having been given to the 
 effect that the subsequent attendance at regimental parades is apt to fall off, we are of 
 opinion that brigade and divisional field days should, as much as possible, be postponed 
 until the close of the battalion drill season. 
 
 We are also of opinion that in order to ensure a good average muster, and to obviate 
 the breaking up of companies in battahon drills, it is desirable to raise the strength of 
 companies in consolidated battalions. 
 
 A 4
 
 Viii REPORT ON THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 In measuring the amount of further pecuniary assistance to the Vohmteer Force 
 which this Commission humbly recommends to Your Majesty, reference has been had 
 solely to the maintenance of the present efficiency of the force as regards its strength 
 and discipline. If it be desirable that any positive limit should be placed upon the total 
 number of the force, the duty and responsibihty of deciding that question must rest 
 exclusively with the responsible advisers of the Crown. 
 
 The permanence and efficiency of a Volunteer Force must essentially depend upon the 
 sympathies of the public, and upon the general support, whether pecuniary or other, to 
 which those sympathies give rise. The Volunteer iiiovement, in its progressive advance 
 to its present condition, has been materially aided by the efforts and contributions of 
 those who, from age or other circumstances, have found themselves precluded from 
 giving their personal service, and the further aid now recommended by this Commission 
 would fail to accomplish its intended purpose if it weakened that general support on the 
 part of the community at large. 
 
 We also beg leave to refer, as affording further explanation of the reasons upon which 
 our Report is founded, to the evidence, documentary and oral, collected by this Commis- 
 sion, and which constitutes the appendix to this our Report. 
 
 EVERSLEY. 
 
 DUCIE. 
 
 HARDINGE. 
 
 ELCHO. 
 
 OYERSTONE. 
 
 EDWARD PLEYDELL BOUVERIE. 
 
 WALTER B. BARTTELOT. 
 
 A. I. CAMPBELL. 
 
 G. A. WETHER ALL, Lieut„ General 
 
 H. EYRE, Major General. 
 
 W. M. S. MACMURDO. 
 
 E. W. PIARCOURT. 
 
 Although I agree to the Report generally, I cannot sign it without stating that I consider 
 a capitation grant open to objection on principle, and of doubtful efficacy for the object it 
 is desired to attain. 
 
 I also think that the proposed amount (bearing in mind the aid already given) is in 
 excess of the actual requirements of the force. 
 
 With this qualification I have signed the Report. 
 
 H. EYRE, Major General. 
 
 I have been unable, in consequence of illness, to attend the meetings of the Com- 
 mission ; but, on a consideration of the printed evidence, I agree in the recommendations 
 
 of the Report. 
 
 ADAM S. GLADSTONE, 
 
 Lieut. ColoneL
 
 APPENDIX. 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 I'age 
 ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE :> 
 
 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES - - - - - - 16 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - - - - - - - - 17 
 
 LETTERS AND MEMORANDA - - - - - - - 205 
 
 B
 
 ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 ANALYSIS or EVIDENCE. 
 
 AcLAND. Lieut. -Col. Thomas Dvke : 
 
 Commands a mounted rifle volunteer cor])S, and an 
 administrative battalion, in Devonsliire, 396/. The corps 
 consists of one company, with a certain number of dis- 
 mounted men ; it is well provided for, and requires no 
 assistance beyond that already given, 3968-39/4. The 
 administrative battalion consists of eight corps, with 
 two mounted corps attached, 39/6. Volunteer corps 
 should, if possible, be self-supporting, 3980; and any 
 assistance given by GovernmcTit should be subject to 
 strict conditions as to efficiency, 3981, 4026, 4056. A man 
 should have passed through a course of musketry in- 
 struction, and perhaps all the preliminary drills, in order to 
 be an effective, 3982-3984. There has been great difficulty 
 in some jiarts of Devonshire in getting ranges, 3986. 
 The commanding officer of an administrative battalion 
 shovild have more responsibility than he has at present ; 
 but if money were given to the different corps, it should 
 not pass througli his hands, 3f)88-3990. He should have 
 the power of ascertaining what progi-ess is being made in 
 the drill of the different corps under him; the adjutant 
 should keep him infonned on this point, and should 
 have an orderly-clerk or serjeant-major for the pur- 
 pose, 3985, 3991-3993. The plan 'of compounding 
 for the adjutant's travelling expenses is a bad one, 3995. 
 The present mode of appointing and paying drill- 
 instructors in small corps, should be altered ; the best ar- 
 rangement would be to ])lace them under the commanding 
 officer and adjutant of the administrative battalion, and, 
 failing this, the most convenient course would he to 
 give a money payment to the officers of each corps to be 
 spent on the payment either of an occasional drill in- 
 structor, or of a resident orderly, or of both. This 
 would cost less than the present system, and would go 
 further to ensure a supply of proper men, .3996-4013, 
 4041-4042. The expenses incvu-red in travelling to bat- 
 tallion drill fall, as a rule, on the officers ; and this imposes 
 a limit on attendance and also on the a]3])ointment of 
 officers, 1014, 1015. The Devon County Volunteer As- 
 sociation gives money for brigade but not for battalion 
 drills, 4019. It is now endeavouring to encourage a high 
 figure of merit in shooting, by giving battalion prizes, 
 4020, 4021 . There is no insuperable difficulty in keeping 
 the several companies at their proper strength, 4022. It 
 is not necessary to enforce universally all the details of the 
 Hythe system, 4023—1025. In the administration of 
 Government aid each corps should state its own wants ; 
 the field officers and the assistant inspector should give 
 their oi)inions on the application, and the War Office 
 should then exercise a final judgment, 4027-1033, 4056. It 
 is desirable that the volunteers should, as far as possible, 
 clothe themselves, 30.38-4040. If the present arrange- 
 ment with regard to drill instructors remains unaltered, 
 the case of subdivisions should be S))ecially considered, 
 4043. Every rifle in the possession of a corps ought to 
 be produced when the corjis is inspected, 4043^1049. 
 The inspection should carry practical consequences to the 
 funds of the cori)s, 4053. A man should be judged to 
 be effective by the results of his work, and not by the 
 time he has spent on it, 4054. 
 
 Bell, Mr. Sheriff Glassford: 
 Stirhng-Crawford, Lieutenant-Colonkl ; 
 Stirling, Lieutenant-Colonel William : 
 McGrigor, Captain Alexander B, : 
 LocKH.\RT, Mr. James : 
 
 Concur generally in the evidence given by Colonel 
 Dreghorn. I'he Committee, originally ap))ointed at Glas- 
 gow to consider the ajiprojjriation of the fund to be 
 collected for the purpose of the volunteer mo\!ement, 
 reported that its first object should be to facilitate the 
 formation of volunteer corps, especially among the 
 artizan and working classes ; and its second object, to 
 promote the efficiency of the corps after they were formed. 
 Understand the word artizan to cover all jjersons who 
 have limited incomes, varying perhaps from 501. to 100/. 
 
 Bell, Mr. Sheriff Glassford, &c. — continued. 
 
 a year, 4288-4292, 4304-4.305. If the Government made a 
 grant it is probable that all corps would accept it. The 
 Glasgow officers are of opinion that the grant should not 
 be under 21. a head, but as a comjiromise they decided to 
 ask for only U. a head. Besides the general fund, there 
 were special funds and sources of assistance to particular 
 corps at Glasgow ; none of them are any longer a\'ailal)lc, 
 4289, 4293. The present number of volunteers, at Glas- 
 gow, is from 6,000 to 7.000, but the continuance of that 
 number cannot be relied on unless further assistance is 
 given, 4298. Assistance should be given in money, 4298- 
 4.303. If the artizans «'ere eliminated from the Glasgow 
 Volunteer force there would not be more than eight or ten 
 comjjanies left, 4303, 4304. The social tone of the artizans 
 has been greatly imjjroved by their enrolment in volunteer 
 corps, 4305. In an artizan corps, e\en if the Govern- 
 ment issued cloth, the whole of the other expenses v/ould 
 fall on the officers, 4305. A uniform granted by the 
 Government might be taken away from a man who did 
 not attend a certain number of drills, and he might be 
 made to pay a certain sum of money, 4321. About 
 4,000 of the Glasgow Volunteers are artizans, 4330. 
 They would contemplate a discontinuance of the volun- 
 teer movement with considerable disgust, 4331-4334. 
 Themthdrawal of 4,000 artizan volunteers from Glasgow 
 for actual service would not, under the circumstances 
 which would in that case exist, disorganize the industry 
 of the city, 4335-4340. If the power of resignation with 
 14 days' notice were abolished, the commanding officers 
 would have more power over their men, 4344-4355. If 
 the Government renewed the offer to purchase rifles with 
 which the corps have sujjpUed themselves, it might be 
 accepted in Glasgow, 4355-4358. 
 
 Beresford, Major Marcus : 
 
 Commands the 7th Surrey Rifle Volunteers, 608. The 
 corps has 475 members, ot whom from 120 to 160 ordi- 
 narily muster at each battalion drill, 611, 612. The 
 coi'ps is rather decreasing in numbers, 617-619; and will 
 probably decrease more when new uniforms are required, 
 641. The expenses of the corps exceed its receipts, and 
 will continue to do so, 620-640. The efficiency of the corps 
 cannot l^e maintained «'ithout assistance from Govern- 
 ment, 643. This assistance should be in the form of a 
 capitation grant, 648. If the subscriptions were retained, 
 10s. a head would be a sufficient Government grant to 
 cover all ordinary expenses except clothing, 650-654, 
 674-6/8, 706-709. The corps pays nothing extra to its 
 adjutant, 656. The expenses which fall upon officers of 
 the corps do not deter persons from undertaking the duty 
 of officers, 657, 658. The Government grant should be 
 paid to the commanding officer, subject to specific appro- 
 pi'iations, and an accurate account of it should be ren- 
 dered, 662-667. Tills arrangement would not invalidate 
 the voluntary principle of the force, 660, 661 ; nor lead to 
 any inconvenient control of the commanding officer by 
 the members of his corps, 668-670. It is desirable to 
 increase the number of companies in a corps, and not to 
 increase the maximum strength of each comjjany, 618, 
 619, 679-701. It is essential that Government should 
 give some assistance towards clothing,710; and, including 
 this, the Government grant should be 20s. a head on the 
 nominal strength of the corps, 711-721. The law which 
 allo^vs a volunteer to resign with 14 days notice should 
 not l)e altered, 7-''^- 
 
 Bingham, Colonrl Charles : 
 
 Is Deputy Adjutant General of Artillery, 3930. The 
 volunteer organization for moving guns of position on 
 the coast is one of the best arrangements that could be 
 made, and shoidd be extended as much as possible, .39.33, 
 3934. The Government assistance gi\'en to the Artillery 
 Volunteers might fairly include the gratuitous carriage of 
 ammunition, the construction of expense magazines, 
 the construction, in certain cases, of store-rooms for
 
 TO IXQTIIRE INTO THK Ci iXniTTON OF THE VOLUNTEEK FORf'K IX CRKAT BRITAIN. 
 
 « 
 
 Bingham, Colonel Charles — continued. 
 
 Government stores, the resilience ibr the gunner in 
 charge, the erection of gun-sheiis, the expense of sending 
 out their targets for practice, skidchng luit'-tackle, ground 
 and other rollers, scotches, selvages, straps, and drag- 
 ropes ; hut the expense under some of these heads would 
 he great, ci!W5-3i)55. The Horse Guards authorities have 
 no control over the volunteer officers ; but the Artillery 
 Volunteers are organized under the commanding officers 
 of Royal Artillery in the districts, as far as their materiel 
 and practice are concerned, 3!l57-.'"l.'HiI. The Artillery 
 Volunteer Force is of the greatest im])ortance as an 
 auxihary to the Royal Artillery, and ouglit to receive, as 
 it does, every possible assistance froni the Government, 
 
 Blackburn, Captain John Geoege : 
 
 Commands the 31st Lancashire Rifle Volunteer Corps, 
 2623. The corps musters 221 men, who are mostly 
 artizans, 2625-2663. Two-thirds attend parades regularly, 
 2626. Members attend drill once a month, or pay a fine, 
 2628. The volunteer force is not at present on a sohd 
 foundation, nor ever can be, so long as subscriptions are 
 obtained from the men, 2634, 2636. Means by a solid 
 foundation greater certainty as to their pecuniary re- 
 sources, 2654. None of the corps in Lancashire, with 
 one or two exceptions, can be maintained unless they 
 are assisted, 2644, 2645, 2708, 2/09. The power of re- 
 signing after 14 days' notice should be abolished, and the 
 members enrolled for three years, 2653, 2740, 2/41, 2745. 
 To make the volunteer force a permanent one, all expenses 
 of instruction and maintenance should be borne, and 
 armouries, rifle ranges, and uniforms provided by the 
 Government ; the officers paying for bands and for every- 
 thing not really necessary for the efficiency of the corps, 
 2655, 2687, 269 1 . The men of his corps are in a state of 
 efficiency, and able to join in genera! movements if called 
 out for service, 2657. Officers should be bound to obtain 
 certificates of fitness after one year, 2662. Could have a 
 strong and efficient force in Oldham, if members were 
 exempt from money payments, 266.'! Popular feeling in 
 favour of the volunteer force would be increased by acts 
 of recognition and acknowledgment of its services on 
 the part of the Government, 2669, 2670. Its association 
 with the regulai- force would be acceptable to the volun- 
 teers, 267.2, 2673. Objects to the arms being left m 
 possession of the men, 2676. Recruits readily take the 
 uniforms of men who have resigned, 2684. Finds no 
 falling off in the subscriptions and donations of honorary 
 members, but they are very precarious, 2686. Officers 
 are willing to contribute themselves, but are annoyed when 
 obliged to call upon the men for their subscriptions, 2688, 
 2702. Every corps should have an establishment entitling 
 it to an adjutant, 2692. The volunteer force should not 
 be greatly augmented but kept near its present strength as 
 a nucleus round which in case of emergency large num- 
 bers of aU classes might be collected and speedily brought 
 to a state of efficiency, 2711-2716. All members, when 
 effective, should be exempted from civil duties, such as 
 those of jurors, special constables, &c., 2718, 2719, 2720, 
 2722, 2723, 2724. The volunteer force does not at all inter- 
 fere with the recruiting for the militia, 2725. Thinks it 
 undesirable for serjeant-instructors to engage in trade 
 or any other occupation, 2728, 2729, 2730, 2732, 273.'3. 
 Present system of discipline is amply sufficient, 2736. 
 
 Bourne, Lieutenant-Colonel James : 
 
 Commands the 4th Lancashire Artillery Volunteer 
 Corps of eight batteries, 3167-3169. A fund of .3,500/. 
 was raised for brigade purposes by subscrijitions from 
 the officers and men, and a donation of 1,20()/. from the 
 town. The clothing was paid for out of this fund, 3171, 
 
 3172, 3237. The men are principally clerks in merchants' 
 houses; 50 or 60 are mechanics of the higher class, 
 
 3173, 3174. Has great doubt of a fund being raised to 
 renew the clothing, 3176-.'i251. The men are supplied 
 with short carbines and sword bayonets, and eight gar- 
 rison guns, small 24-pounders, for drill purposes. Plat- 
 forms of wood for those guns were provided by the 
 corps, 3177-3178, 3199. Has battalion drill once a 
 week during the summer months; attaches importance 
 to it as giving occupation to the men when they are 
 all assembled, having only facilities for drilUng a certain 
 number at one time at gua drill, 3184, 3186. Divi- 
 sional field days ai'e of no use to artdlery volunteers, 
 unless they were supplied with guns and ammunition, and 
 placed under the command of an artillery officer, 3185, 
 3195. Has a gun range at which practice with shot and 
 shell is carried on, 3187, 3188. Does not see how oppor- 
 tunities for drill can be increased. The fort at which 
 
 Bourne, Lieutenant-Colonel Jame.s — continued. 
 they jn'actise is four or fi\'e miles from head (juarters. 
 The men are marched down l)y batteries in succ'cssion, 
 and boartied there for certain periods, during v,'hich they 
 have two gun drills per day, or practise in the morning 
 and evening, the men returning to their duties in the 
 town and sleeping at the fort at night, 3189. 24-poun- 
 ders are mounted in the parade ground, close to the 
 storehouse, where more guns could be placed, but this 
 would be of no great advantage, as the course is gone 
 through by separate detachments of batteries, and drill 
 is carried on every evening, 3190-3194. There is no 
 organized association in his district for range tiring with 
 great guns ; it would not be of much advantage to 
 artillery corps, 319(i~3198. ,'iO drills per annum, in- 
 cluding company, ciirljine, and gun drill, should con- 
 stitute an effective artillery volunteer; the present number 
 is not sufficint, 3200-3203. The attendance is much 
 better at gun practice, especially with shot and shell, 
 than at gun drill, 3204, .'i205. The men go through a 
 superficial course of theoretical instruction in gunnery, 
 and in boring and fixing fuses. Such instruction is most 
 necessary for artiUeryinen, and especially for non-com- 
 missioned officers, 3206-3208. Very few of his men 
 have been through rcpositoiy drill ; such a mode of 
 varying the drill would be most advantageous, 321,5- 
 3218. Considers the corps under his command to be 
 in a very healthy condition, 3221. Government aid 
 is necessary to secure its permanence and efficiency, 
 3222, 3250-3254. It should be given in the form of 
 a money grant to the extent of 1/. 5s. or \l. \Qs. a 
 head. It should be under the control of the com- 
 manding officers, and applied to the- payment of all ex- 
 penses for drill purposes and instructors, the rent of 
 storehouses, the custody and repair of small arms, head- 
 quarters, carriage of amnmnition, drill grounds, and the 
 expense of attending parades, 3223, 3229-3233. At the 
 commencement of the movement the corps paid 130/. 
 for instructors belonging to the coast brigade of Royal 
 Artillery, 3226-3228. He would be satisfied to be sup- 
 phed with the items he has named on the terms upon 
 which they are supplied with floating targets, the 
 Government specification being adhered to with a maxi- 
 mum price, to be reduced by the commanding officer 
 as much as possible, and the money so expended 
 to be refunded by Government, .3234-32.36. The in- 
 come of his corps is about 800/. a year, 650/. of which 
 is expended annually under the heads he has enume- 
 rated, leaving a balance of 150/., which may or not be 
 applied to the renewal of clothing, .3238, 3239. He does 
 not include clothing in the 25a'. or 30s. to be given to the 
 commanding officer, 3240, 3241,3242. Sees no way for 
 the provision of clothing unless the Government rehe^'e 
 the men and officers from the expenses to which they are 
 now liable. From the class of men fomiing his brigade, 
 has no doubt they would clothe themselves were they 
 relieved by Government of the other expenses. They 
 now subscribe 18s. a year, .3243, 3245. Considers that 11 
 Liverpool were menaced by an invading force his corps 
 would render most valuable service, 3246, 3247. Its 
 efficiency is not now exposed to very serious danger 
 arising from pecuniary difficulties, 3248. The artizans in 
 his brigade are very orderly, well-disposed, and amenable 
 to discipline, 3255. The band costs the officers from 160/. 
 to 180/. a year, and is not included in these expenses. 
 The volunteer movement has had a very beneficial effect, 
 morally and socially, in Liverpool and its neighbourhood, 
 3258. 
 
 Bousfield, Major Nathaniel : 
 
 Is major of the 1st Lancashire Rifle ^'oluntee^ Corps, 
 2272. It is a consolidated battalion of 10 companies, 
 and 698 men, 2273, 2274, 2276. The corps ivas at first 
 composed entirely of gentlemen. Tradesmen, their sons 
 and assistants, ai'e now enrolled. Three companies of 
 artizans have also been formed, 2277. Has a regimental 
 fund raised from an annual subscription of one guinea, 
 paid by each meniuer in tlie corps, 2278-2280, and ex- 
 pended in storehouse acconnnodation, l)and, and store- 
 keeper, 2281. There is one large range for the force in 
 Liverpool, supported by subscriptions, and used by about 
 4,000 volunteers ; its annual cost, including markers aiul 
 others, is near 1,000/., 2282-2284, 2.331-2333, 2339, 2.340. 
 No extra allowance is given to the adjutant or drill 
 Serjeants, except when the latter are used as store- 
 keepers, 2286-2287. All the arms are kept in store- 
 houses situate in different parts of the town, near the 
 head-quarters of the companies. The men are taught 
 to clean the arms, but to pre\ent their being taken home, 
 men are paid to do it at the store, 2288-2293. The 
 artizans were jirincipally clothed liy the officers, none 
 
 B 2
 
 4 
 
 ANALYSIS OF EVinENCE TAKEX BEFORE THE r'OJDIISSIONERS APPOIXTED 
 
 BousviELD, Major Nathaniel — continueil. 
 
 from the funds, 229 J. Anticipates no difficulty in the 
 renewal of elothinp;, except by the avtizans, 2295. Govern- 
 ment assistance should he applied in the payment of arm 
 cleaners, instruction of buglers, bugle-major, and rent of 
 storehouses. Practice ranges .should be pro\-ided, and 
 travelling allowances made for attending driUs, &c. 
 Adjutants should have lodging allowance. The allowance 
 of ammunition should be increased, 229(5. Is averse to a 
 capitation grant, 2297. Go;'ernment should pay the 
 actual cost, and leave the men to provide their own 
 uniforms and bands, 2298. To his corps of 700 men, 
 500/. a year should be given Ijy Government, which 
 vould not include clothing, 2.30U-2302. This would 
 be wholly inadequate for corps composed of artizans, • 
 or w'ho required clothing ; three artizin companies only 
 in his corps require clothing, 2303-230(5. Anticipates 
 a falling off from peciniiary considerations only, 2308, 
 2309. Including clothing and everything, fully 30s. 
 a man is required ft-om Government to place the force 
 in a satisfactory condition, 2310-2314. In his corps 
 20s. for 500 and 30s. for 198 men would be sufficient, 
 2315-2318. A capitation grant would be objectionable 
 to the members of liis corps, 2319-2321. Assistance 
 should be gi\-en to certain branches of the service only, 
 2322. Separate regulations would be requu-ed for differ- 
 ent corps ; woidd leave it to each commanding officer to 
 say whether he would recei\-e aid in the form of a capita- 
 tion grant or by any other mode ; estimates ought to be 
 required, 2323-'232(j. Xon-effectives should be included 
 in the calculation of a capitation grant ; they are tolerably 
 efficient, and fall in at reviews, &c., 2327-2330, 2420. 
 The Government. Serjeants require extra pay for cleaning 
 anus, 2333-233G. It is not possible for all volunteers to 
 clean their ovm anns, 2338, 2339. The volunteers in 
 his corps could not be under stricter control than thev 
 are at present, 2341, 2342. In 18(50 had 220, ancl 
 in 1861 150 of his men in camp under canvas for seven 
 weeks. It answered very well, and many of the men 
 want another camp this year, 2343-68. If uniform 
 were issued by the Go\'ernment, it should be in cloth 
 and an allowance should be given for making up, 2369. 
 Everything personal to each man should be provided by 
 himself, 2370-2372. Finds no good in working men 
 as volunteers, except «'hen they are in the employ of 
 their commanding officer, 2374, 2375. There would be 
 a difficulty in getting the men to wear second-hand 
 clothing, 2376, 2405. Where artizan corps are officered 
 by theu- employers anticipates no inconvenience in Liver- 
 pool from strikes, 2378. Has some officers totally 
 incompetent who obtained commissions by obtaining 
 50 or 60 men, 2380-2382, 2385, 2411. Has now no diffi- 
 culty in transferring men from one company to another, 
 2384. Thinks every officer should be subjected to an 
 examination, and that lord lieutenants have the neces- 
 sary power for that purpose, 2387-2391. Suggests, for 
 securing the pei-manent efficiency of the volunteer move- 
 ment, an examination of all officers as to efficiency, a 
 monetary grant for a storehouse, drill instructors, arm 
 cleanersj adjutants Vi'ith lodging allowance, instruction 
 of buglers, and an increased allowance of ammunition, 
 2394, 2395, 2400, 2405. In his corps three companies 
 (artizans) would requu-e more than others, 2396, 2397. 
 If one-half or two-thirds of the force were proved to be 
 in the same position as those three companies, it would 
 modify the views he has expressed, 2388. No man should 
 be a volunteer who is is not self-supporting ; the place 
 of those who require clothing and maintaining is in the 
 militia, 2399. The uniform in his corps costs ol. for 
 tunic, shako, forage cap, belts, pouch, and trousers ; 
 great coat is extra, and provided by all, 2401, 2402. 
 An early decision on the question of Government aid is 
 of pressing im])ortance, 2406-2409. None of the officers 
 in his corps, except himself, have been attached to a 
 regiment of the line for instruction, 2410. Less than 
 24 drills every year should not be allowed to constitute 
 an effective; many men attend more, 2416-2418. His 
 drill instructors have nothing to do during the day, which 
 is injurious, leading to drinking and idleness ; reducing 
 their number or allowing them to engage in other occu- 
 pations vi-ould not be advisable ; if they could get light 
 work it would be useful, or they might be ordered by 
 Government to clean the arms ; light work would not 
 interfere with their duties except on Saturdays ; their 
 conduct is generally good, 2423-2434. Finds it im- 
 possible to carry out the theoretical instruction laid 
 down by General Hay; has musketry classes, but the 
 men do not care for them, 2435. Every man. in his 
 corps has had ball practice, but not fired his 90 rounds, 
 2436, 2437. Thinks there should be a larger gratuitous 
 supply of ammunition for prize shooting, 2440-2449. 
 
 Bower, Lieutenant-Colonel John : 
 
 Commands the 1st Hants Light Horse Volunteer 
 Corps, of 44 men, 4213, 4214. There will be no difficulty 
 in renewing the clothing, and the corps is not in ahsoUitc 
 want of anytliing, 4216-4227. The Government should 
 give forage for the Serjeant instructor's horse, 4217. It 
 would be an advantage to the corps if the (iovernment 
 would issue a lighter weapon to them than the short 
 Enfield, 4222. The corps is a peculiar one, and requires a 
 jn'oper designation, 4224-422(5. The present allowance of 
 anmrunition is not enough, 4227—1230. 
 
 Boys, Capt.\in Henry, R.N. 
 
 Is 1st Lieutenant of the 2nd Cinque Ports Ai-tillery 
 Volunteer Corps, of one batterj^ and 64 men, 3260-32(53. 
 llie men are drilled at guns belonging to the coqis 
 mounted at Sandwich at an old battery, used only as a 
 magazine by the corps, 3264-3267. The members are 
 got tf^gether for drill eight or ten times a month during 
 summer, and three or four times a month during ^\■inter, 
 
 3268. They are pretty perfect in their garrison gun drill, 
 
 3269. They are armed with carbines, 3270. Attaches 
 no value to the jjossession of carliines by ai-tilleiy 
 volunteers for service, but they would not be satisfied 
 without them, 3271. They have small arms drill three 
 or four times a montli, 3272. A drill instructor is at- 
 tached to the corps, w'hose travelling expenses from 
 Sandown to Sandwich they ha^-e to pay, 3273-3277. 
 The artillery volunteers would not object to being 
 ])laced even more than at present under the control 
 of the district officers of Royal ArtUlery, 3282, 3283. 
 There are several rifle volunteer corps in the neigh- 
 bourhood, 3284. Recruiting for one arm interferes 
 with reciinting for the other, 3285-3287. On the 
 coast, artUlery is the more important arm. 3286. The 
 men generally prefer the artillery, 3288. The corps has 
 battalion drill eight or ten times a year, 3289, 3290. 
 Ail field days are good for the men, 3292. There is 
 an organized association in the district for prize firing 
 with great guns, 3294. Such associations would be of 
 great advantage to artillery corps generally, 3295-3297. 
 The corps is supplied v,-ith two 24-pounder garri- 
 son guns for drill purposes, and two 18-pounder field 
 guns of position on the coast for shot practice, 3298. 
 Platforms for these were provided by the corps ; applica- 
 tion was made for the expenses, but refused. They were 
 not erected according to a specification, 3299-3303. 
 Considers for each description of gun drill 10 drills a 
 year necessary to constitute an effective, 3304. The 
 attendance is better at gun practice than at gun drill, 
 .3305. All the men have been instructed in boring and 
 fixing fuses, and partially in the general principles of 
 gunnery, 3306. It is essential for a gunner to be ac- 
 quainted with these subjects before being apjjointed a 
 non-commissioned officer, 3307. Varying the drills 
 secures better attendance, and doing so by repository 
 exercises, which are necessary for artillerymen, would 
 be appreciated by the men, 3322-3324. It would be 
 advantageous to artillery ^■olunteers to know how to 
 shift everything belonging to a gun or carriage, .3325. 
 Thinks a system could be organized in his neighbour- 
 hood like that which exists in Sussex for moving 
 guns or travelHng carriages, 3327, 3328. Gun-boats 
 or floating batteries in charge of the coast-guard, and 
 manned by seamen from the naval reserve, should be 
 stationed at various ports on the coast, and the artillery 
 volunteers should provide marines, still attached to their 
 batteries on shore, for those vessels «-hen they should 
 be called out, 3330. Does not think that this plan 
 would interfere in any way mth the naval reserve, 
 3331. It would be a great advantage if the ai-tillery 
 vclnnteers were provided with light 6-pounder guns 
 or 12-pounder howitzers, 3332, 3333. Thinks his corps 
 generally is in a healthy condition with reference to its 
 finance,' 3335. Government aid wiU be necessai-y to 
 ensure the permanence and efficiency of his corps, 3336. 
 If aid were afforded, would prefer a money allowance of 
 so much a head to be made to the commanding officer for 
 the purpose of paying the travelling expenses of volun- 
 teers in going to reviews and meetings, and to estal)hsh 
 gun sheds, 3337. The men generally mai'ch about three 
 miles to gun jiractice, 3338-3343. Various classes of men 
 ai'e enrolled in his corps, 3344. One half is clothed 
 entirely, and one tlm-d partly, fi'om the funds of the 
 corps, one third clothing themselves, 3349-3351. There 
 are a good many honorary members belonging to the 
 corps, who jiay a guinea a j'car to the fund, 3352-3354. 
 Does not think the subscription from honorary members 
 will fall off, but there will be no more donations, 3355. 
 The officers subscribe largely, but are not called upon to
 
 TO IXQUIRE IXTO THK CONnTTION OF THK VOLUNTEER FORCK IN OREAT BlUTAIN. 
 
 Boys, Captain Henry, R.N. — cnntinned. 
 [lay other expenses, 3;^56. Considers his corps to be at 
 this moment in a state efficient ibr actual service, and 
 that in case of a sudden emerffeney it wouUl render 
 real and valualde assistance, .'i'J.'jS, .'i.'i.')!). The poorest 
 men in the corps feel the expenses of mQ\'in<); aljout to 
 the different meetings to he the heaviest, 33()(). 
 
 BrIGGS, LlliUTENAXT-Col.ONEL GeORGE : 
 
 Commands the 1st Administrative Battalion of the 
 AVest Ridina; of Yorkshire Rifle N'oluntcers, of eifjht and 
 a half comjianics, averaging 7^ nien each, li^f)-l-1807. 
 All the companies attend battalion drill twice a j'car ; four 
 com])anies once a week, 180S, 180!). The volunteers 
 travel by railway at the same rate as the regular troops, 
 1814. Has a battalion fund of 150/. a year, raised from 
 subscriptions of staff officers and contributions of 12/. 
 per company, and applied to battalion drill and head 
 (juarters expenses, 1815-1818. Each company has a 
 separate fund of its own, 1819. The men have been 
 assisted in providing clothing ; appreliends difficulty in 
 renewing it, and a falling off in the subscriptions, 18:20- 
 1822. One corps in York has four companies and one 
 range, 1823-1825. All the expenses are borne by the 
 four companies together, 1826. The adjutant receives no 
 extra allo«'ance ; has the use of a room at head quarters, 
 1827-1829. His pay is not sufficient; he has harder 
 work, and recei\'e3 less than a militia adjutant ; he keeps 
 a horse, 1830, 1837-18-42, 1860-1869; he visits and at- 
 tends to the drill of the outlying companies, 1831. The 
 position of commanding officer of an administrative bat- 
 talion should be more defined and regimental than at 
 present, 1834, 1907. The adjutant visits the corps for 
 drill at least once a quarter, oftener in tlie summer 
 months ; the musketry instruction is carried on under his 
 siipervision ; the greater part of the effectives have gone 
 through the course, 184.'i-1850. The Government Ser- 
 jeants are engaged by the commandants of the separate 
 companies, and receive an additional allowance out of the 
 funds of each, 1851-1853. Registers of attendance are 
 strictly kept, 1855-1859. Captains of companies are 
 responsible for the correctness of returns of effectives : 
 they are not always correctly kept, 1870, 1871. 24 drills 
 a year should be required to constitute an effective, 
 1872, 1873. Recruits usually join in spring and summer, 
 
 1876. The arms are always inspected by the adjutant, 
 
 1877, 1B78. Fiirther Government aid will be required to 
 keep up the battalion ; a capitation grant of 5s. a year 
 woidd be sufficient, and supply the place of the present 
 battalion fund, 1879-1885, 1908-1910. To keep up the 
 companies a capitation grant of 1/. Is. for each effective 
 should also be given, through the colonel of the battalion 
 to commanding officers, to be applied at their discretion 
 to certain objects only, 1886-1998. 1911, 1912. An early 
 decision on the question is important, 1899. The bat- 
 talion is increasing in numbers, 1901. Some assistance 
 is necessary for the continuance of the force, especially 
 in the rural districts, 1902. The band funds have been 
 ke])t distinct from the corps funds, 1903. If the private 
 suliseriptions ceased, a considerable number of the mem- 
 bers would provide their own uniform, 1904. Has no 
 control over the finance of the corps composing his bat- 
 talion, 1905. Thinks there would be a difficulty in 
 getting members to wear second-hand uniforms, 1906. 
 A. member who attends drill and musketry instruction 24 
 times a year is con.sidered an effective, 1914, 1915. An 
 administrative battalion should have one colour of uniform 
 only, 1916. If further aid is given, stringent rules 
 should be laid down as to returning men effccti\-e or non- 
 effective, 1917-1919. Members muster about two-thirds 
 when he visits them, 1920-1922. Has no power to en- 
 force attendance; the adjutant sees to the drill, 192.3- 
 1925. Has no control except on parade; volunteers 
 would be better pleased with a stricter system of dis- 
 ci])line ; the officer commanding an administrative bat- 
 talion should be placed in the same position as the 
 connnanding officer of a yeomanry regiment : at ])resent 
 he cannot interfere to correct irregularities himseU', and 
 can only represent them to the authorities, 1926-1937. 
 The drill instruction should be under his direction, with 
 ])owcr to enforce any system he may lay down, 1938-1!)41. 
 The Government Serjeants are under the authority of the 
 adjutant, but the commanding officers order their own 
 jiarades, and are apt to disregard the system of drill re- 
 connnended by the adjutant, li)42, 194;i. There is great 
 difficulty in obtaining serjeant instructors, 1945. A new 
 Act of Parliament is absolutely necessary to remedy the 
 defects he has pointed out, 1949. The adjutant exercises 
 a general superintendence over the nuisketry instruction, 
 but each corps has its own instructor, 1950. 
 
 Brooics, Major Thomas : 
 
 Is major of the 3rd Manchester Rifle \'olnntecr Corps, 
 of 10 companies and 731 men, 34.'j9-.'i4 11. The corps is 
 composed principally of artizans and tradesmen, 3444. 
 The fund is speut principally in the expenses of tlie 
 orderly-room, drill grounds, storage of arms, and clothing, 
 3446. In one year nearly 300/. of the fund was exi)eiided 
 on a band, which will for the future be su])ported by a 
 special subscription, 3448, ,3449. There arc two battaiiou 
 drills out of uiuform twice a week, and once a fortnight 
 in uniform, ,3451. The corps has decreased this year, 
 owing ])artly to the great distress in Lancashire, 345.3, 
 3454, 351 1-3513. In good times there would be difficulty 
 in maintahiing the force at its present strength, the sub- 
 eriptions being too high, 3455. The rifle range of the 
 corps is eight miles from Manchester. The men are 
 taken there and back by the i-ailway for (i(/. each, which 
 is i)aid by themselves, 345(), 3157, 3.51 1. All the men 
 have passed through a course of nmsketry instruction, 
 3458, 34()6, 34(>8. The average muster at each battalion 
 drill out of uniform is 250 to 300, and in imiform 550 to 
 600, 34()4. Every man must make himself effective or 
 leave the corps, 3465. Eight companies could be main- 
 tained of the corps irrespective of clothing without 
 Government aid, 3474. Aid should be given in money 
 at so much a head, to be exjiended in defraying the 
 regimental exiienses. at the discretion of the command- 
 ing officer, 3475-.3481 ; or the commanding officer might 
 send in an estimate under certain heads, according to 
 which the money might be granted, or assistance might 
 be given in kind instead of money, 3482-3484. The 
 issue of cloth would not be so satisfactory as that of 
 ready-made clothing, on account of the expense in making 
 it up. Many members would oljjeet to receiving com- 
 plete suits of clothing from Goverimient, 3485-3487. 
 Volunteer corps in wliich the men are not able to clothe 
 themselves would be willing to accept clothing, while 
 others who can afford to clothe themseh'cs would not 
 consent to receive such uniforms, 3493. Has a general 
 knowledge of the condition of the movement in South 
 Lancashire, 3594. It is not subject to any serious danger 
 as to its present condition ; a better class of recruit is 
 now obtained, 3595. The present condition of the volun- 
 teer force is satisfactory, but not financially so, 3596, 
 3597. The pecuniary jjressui-e U]xiri the artizan class 
 in his corjjs threatens considerable danger to its main- 
 tenance and efficiency, 3598, 3599. Considers the corps 
 to be in a highly satisfactory state with regard to discipline 
 and organization, and also as to the condition of its 
 arms and accoutrements, 3600, 3601. In the event of 
 South Lancashire being suddenly menaced by a foreign 
 force, his corps would render effectual assistance to the 
 regular army ; there would be an increased disposition 
 to enter the force, and the men so lirought in would 
 be rapidly rendered efficient, 3602-3605. The volunteer 
 force, as it now exists, is a valuable nucleus for augmen- 
 tation in time of emergency, and the certainty of that 
 opinion would be increased by limited peenniary aid 
 from Government, 350(), 3507, 3509. The movement is 
 in a satisfactory condition both as to its present efficiency 
 and its probable permanence, reserving only the question 
 of pecuniary aid, 3510. The number of drills required 
 to constitute an effective should be 35 a year, 3514-3521. 
 Above two-thirds of his corps have gone through a course 
 of 35 drills, 3522. None have been obliged to leave the 
 corps through not passing the 24 drills, 3523. Many 
 other corps are in as efficient a state, 3524. Is well 
 acquainted with the state and feelings of the artizan class 
 in South Lancashire, and sees no objection to their being 
 drawn largely into the volunteer force, 3525, 3527. In 
 case of emergency a large volunteer force, including a 
 considerable part of the artizan jiopulation, might be 
 safely relied on for the discharge of their niihtary 
 duties, 3528, 3533. Is convinced that it would be quite 
 prudent to arm and train a large portion of the artizan 
 class in military discipline, 3534-3536. The social 
 habits and general conduct of the volunteers are in- 
 variably improved by the \'olunteer organization, 3537, 
 3538. The artizans in his corps are its most efficient 
 members, 3539. Has sufficient ])ower to enforce discipline 
 under the volunteer regulations, 3510, 3545, .3546. In 
 South Lancashire there are great difficulties in getting 
 rifle ranges, 3541, 3542. The enrolment of artizans docs 
 not interfere with recruiting for Jlie line or militia, 
 3547. There are about 3,000 volunteers in Manchester, 
 two-thirds of whom are artizans, .354.9, ,3550. Experi- 
 enced a difficulty in finding oliicer.s, but not entirely in 
 consequence of the large subscription; .'(551. Thinks 
 the cajrtains are competent to command their com- 
 panies, 3552. The volunteers would rather have more 
 military supervision than less, 3553 ; and desire to 
 
 15 3
 
 ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Brooks, Major Thomas — continued. 
 
 be oftener assembled in large bodies lor inspection, 
 355-4, 3568-35/0. In the event of the volunteers being 
 called out for actual service, the millowners and other 
 employers would have no objection to volunteers being 
 enrolled in any number, and tlie arrangements need 
 not occasion any inconveiiienoe to trade or industry, 
 3528-3532, 3555-3560. Great anxiety is feit in his 
 neighbourhood with reference to the question of Govern- 
 ment aid; and the etfect of nothing being done would 
 be a loss of a great many volunteers, 3561-3567. 
 
 Buckley, Lieut. -General Edward Pbry, M.P. : 
 
 Commands the South Wiltshire Administrative Batta- 
 lion of lliHe Volunteers, consisting of nine companies, 
 and numbering 700 men, 2754-275/. Had three batta- 
 lion drills last year' and one this year, 2758. Owing to the 
 battaUon being much scattered, has never mustered 400 at 
 one time ; attendance at battalion drill is more important 
 than at reviews, 2759. The travelUng expenses of each bat- 
 tahon drill are about 461., and are sometimes defrayed by 
 the men, and occasionally made up by the captains, and 
 fi'om local funds, 2761-2765. Has no battalion fund, 
 2766. The members in the first instance clothed them- 
 selves ; there will be great difficulty in the renewal of the 
 clothing, and members consider it a grievance to have 
 to provide new clothing and are holding back in the 
 hope of assistance, 2/67-2768. Volunteers know their 
 value a little and e.vpect something to be done for them, 
 2810, 2811. All the companies are provided with ranges, 
 2769-2772. The battalion would be very efficient m case 
 of a demand for its service to resist invasion, and could 
 be brought exi)editiously to one point to assist the regu- 
 lar army, 2776-2778. The force generally would be 
 useful and valuable for the purposes of internal and 
 national defence, 277y--780, 2784. Officers command- 
 ing administrative battalions have very little power, 
 21S6, 2789. Thinks that the retm-ns of effectives and 
 non-effectives are correctly rendered, 2790. A capita- 
 tion grant for each effective should be given by Govern- 
 ment to commanding officers for tlie purposes of providing 
 -clothing and defi'aying the expenses incurred by attend- 
 ance at battahon drills, 2796, 2797. Members who had 
 attended a certain number of drills, learned the manual 
 and platoon exercise, and gone through the third class 
 of musketry instruction, might be considered effectives, 
 2799-2805. The men would not object to receive assist- 
 ance in clothing, if it were judiciously given, 2809. An 
 adjutant's allowance is not sufficient, 2812. The Lord- 
 Lieutenant should decide what the uniform colour of the 
 company or battalion should be. 
 
 Campion, Captain W. F. : 
 
 Commands the 13th Sussex Rifle Volunteer Corps, of 
 one company and 73 men ; it forms part of an adminis- 
 trative battalion, 2450-2453. The numbers keep up 
 very fairly, 2454. Some belong to St. John's College, a 
 few are artizans, and more than a third farmers, 2465- 
 245/. Has a fund supported by honorary members, 
 2458,2459. Lniforms are provided Ijy the men them- 
 selves or out of a special fund raised in the neighbour- 
 ^hood, 2460, 2461, 2498. Attendance at drill is getting 
 slack, 2462, 2463. The a\erage attendance of his corps 
 at battalion drill is about 70, including the band, 2464- 
 2466. The Government Serjeant has 21. a quarter extra for 
 cleaning the ai-ms, 2474, 2522, 2523. Sees no difficulty 
 in maintaining the corps in its present state of efficiency, 
 2475. Does not require any further assistance from 
 Government, 2476, 2496. Has no doubt but that the 
 men will renew their uniforms themselves ; is averse to 
 giving them clothing. The traveUing expenses on 
 account of battahon drills are paid out of the funds of 
 the corps, 2479-2484. All the corps in a battalion should 
 wear the same uniform, 2480-2483. Has a balance in 
 hand of 100^. invested in stock, 2496. The incidental 
 expenses of his corps can be permanently met by sub- 
 scriptions raised in the neighbourhood, 2504, 2505. 
 Entertains no apprehension as to the maintenance of the 
 volunteer force in its present state of efficiency, 2506, 
 2507. Does not think that any special measures ai'c now 
 requisite for maintaining it, 2508. The adjutant is very 
 useful, visits his corps once a month or every two months ; 
 he does not supermtend the musketry instruction of his 
 corps, 2509-2512. The serjeant-instructor has a great 
 deal of spare time, but he is always ready to work ; he 
 keeps the arms clean, attends all parades and at the 
 orderly room, and keeps the muster roll and books of the 
 corps, which are accurately kept ; the ai-ms are kept in 
 the armoury, but some of them are necessarily out, 2515- 
 2520. 
 
 Darby, Captain Georgl: 
 
 Commands the 3rd Sussex .Artillery Volunteer Corps, of 
 two batteries and 108 men, 2J22-2924. Formed his corps 
 witli a view to organizing a mode, which might be 
 generally extended, of conveying artillery to the coast. 
 Has now for that purpose above (iOO draught beasts, 
 volunteered by farmers in the district, most of whom are 
 enrolled as iionorary members in his corps, 2925, 2928- 
 2997. 'I'o move the guns of Ids battery at the late 
 Brigliton review, they supplied horses, teamsters, and 
 forage, free of cliarge, 2926-2928. Could command 
 these horses when necessary. Has contrived a plan by 
 which agricultural may be changed at once into artillery 
 harness, 2929, 2!^^0. Ammunition, side-arms, and small 
 stores are supplied by Government, 2931, 2932. On 
 renewal of the uniform, 30 men will have to be wholly, 
 and 19 men partially, clothed out of the funds of the 
 corps, 2935. Furnishes the officer commanding the 
 royal artillery in the district, under whose su])erintendence 
 practice is carried on, with quarterly returns of practice 
 and returns of stores, 293()-2938. The organization of 
 Artillery Volunteers is of a more military character than 
 that of Rifle Volunteers. Thinks the men like it better, 
 and would not dislike being placed even more than they 
 are at present under the superintendence of the officer 
 commanding the royal artillery in the district, 2940- 
 2943. All the members go through a regular course of 
 artillery drill, 2947-2949. Attaches no importance to 
 the use of carbines by artillery volunteers, 2950-2954, 
 2959-2963. The corps siiould be reheved from expense 
 for the storage and care of the arms, 2955. Rifle matches 
 and county tmmeegs are of little use in keeping up the 
 artillery volunteer force. The less the volunteers are taken 
 away from their occupations, the better it wiU be for the 
 permanence of the movement, 2964-2968. Uses 68 prs., 
 32prs., and 18 prs. for drill and practice, 2969. Thinks 
 that atter the first year, 12 drills per annum s'nould con- 
 stitute an effective, 2971, 2972, 2;>74-2978. The attend- 
 ance is better at gun practice than at gun drill, 2973. 
 The members go through a course of theoretical instruc- 
 tion in boring and fixing fuses, trajectory, and the science 
 of artillery generally, 2979. A better attendance is secured 
 by varying the driUs, 2992, The members of his corps give 
 assistance to the coast brigade of Royal Artillery when 
 required, 2995, 2996. It is desirable that Government 
 should provide sheds for drill, and for the care and storage 
 of the arms, and also pay for getting the targets out to 
 sea ; the whole would cost about 5s. a head per annum, 
 2999-. 3000, 3009, 3030, 30;il, 3041. Aid should be given 
 in kind, 3002. Artillery volunteer corps should be 
 principally formed on the coast, and rifle volunteer corps 
 inland. Volunteer corps should never attempt to use 
 fight field guns, 3007, 3010. In case of invasion, ar- 
 tiUery volunteer corps would be required to man existing 
 batteries, and to move guns of position and heavy stores, 
 3008. The artillery volunteer service is generally popular 
 in his district, 301 1 . The members of his corps are 
 jirincipally drawn from master blacksmiths, carpenters, 
 farmers, and tradesmen, superior labourers, and skilled 
 artizans, 3019-3021. In case of emergency, his corps 
 would be ready and prepared for active service, 3022- 
 3025. The quantity of ammunition allowed is always 
 fired off, 3027-3029. Tlie corps practises with the same 
 kind of shells as are used by the Royal Artillery, and in 
 doing so, the men regularly change rounds, 3036, .j039, 
 3040. Thinks it objectionable for Government to supply 
 clothing to volunteers, 3041. 
 
 Crawford, Lieut.-Col. See Bell, Mr,. &c. 
 
 De Grey .4.nd Rifon,the Earl: 
 
 The 1st Devon and 1st Middlesex Rifle Volunteer 
 Corps were formed some years before 1859. In the spring 
 of 1859 the then Government determined to accept the 
 service of other volunteer corps. They were to occasion 
 no cost whatever to the pubhc, and the general intention 
 was, that they should be formed as separate and inde- 
 pendent companies. When the present Government 
 came into office 1 1 of these new corps had been formed, 
 and applications increasing almost daily in number 
 continued to be received. Lord Herbert first deter- 
 mined to supply 25 per cent, of the rifles required by the 
 corps. Shortly after, he sanctioned the organization in 
 consolidated battalions, and ultimately decided on giving 
 100 per cent, of rifles. The next step taken was to 
 supply adjutants, and to unite the small rural corps in 
 administrative battahons. At the end of last session 
 the Government took a supplementary estimate for the 
 purpose of supplying drill Serjeants, The position in 
 which the matter stands at present with regard to 
 Government assistance is, that a volunteer gives his
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 Db Grey and Ripon, the Earl — continued. 
 
 BeTv\cc, and provides himself with everything except 
 arms, ammunition, and the (lersons required for his 
 drill and insjiection, 45!)), 4(i-4, 46'25. It is prac- 
 tically imjjossible to i)ut the force under a more ex- 
 tended military discipline without entirely altering its 
 character, and completely chaiifjini; tlie basis upon which 
 it now rests, -1595, 45l)(i. The organization of the ad- 
 ministrative battalion grew ni) from the circumstances 
 connected with the development of the movement in the 
 conntry. It is desirable tliat the commanding officer 
 of an administrative battalion should havK a somewhat 
 more extended power of command than lie now jiossesses, 
 but this power cannot be given him n-ithout an alteration 
 in the Act of Parliament, 4597. It is desirable that tlie 
 drill instructors of administrative battalions should be 
 placed under the orders of the commanding officers of 
 the battaUons, 45,97-159!), 46l'1, 4(;22. It would not 
 have l)een possible or wise to enforce strict uniformity in 
 the rules of the corps, 4()00. 4()01. In case of invasion 
 it is not probable that the volunteers would be moved 
 from their own homes until they were actually wanted in 
 the field, 4603, 4G(I4. If any further assistance is given 
 to the volunteers, there should be some test of efficiency 
 beyond the present test of effectiveness, 4605, 4628-46.H1. 
 If any considerable sum of pubbc money were disbursed 
 to each corps, the adjutants could, without difficulty, be 
 emploved as paymasters, in acconlance with the ]n-ecedcnt 
 of the militia adjutants, 4607-4609, 4(il9, 4620. The 
 spending of a large sum of public money on the force 
 would necessarily involve a limitation of its total 
 strength in time of peace, 4610-4614, 4636-4640. 
 A capitation grant to the force Vvfould not involve anj' 
 important trouble or expense at the War Office, 4615- 
 4618. No further Government aid shoidd be given to any 
 corps, which either was not a consolidated battalion, or did 
 not form part of an administrative battalion, 4621, 4622. 
 It is desirable that the decision to which the Government 
 may come on receiving the report of this commission 
 should be considered as defining the permanent basis of 
 the corps, 4625. The main resjjonsibility, both us to 
 the corps to be raised, and as to the officers to l)e nomi- 
 nated, must remain with the lords lieutenant, 4627. In 
 time of peace, it would be inconsistent with the character 
 and constitutional nature of the force that it should be 
 placed under the command of the general officers com- 
 manding districts, and the present position of the artillery 
 volunteers affords no precedent for such an arrangement, 
 4641—4645. In case of the volunteers being called out 
 for actual service, they would not act as an independent 
 force, and it is desirable that they should now, as much 
 as ])ossible, be associated with the regular troops, 4646- 
 4651. 
 
 Denys, Major Sir George, Bart, : 
 
 Is major of the 1st Administi'ative Battalion of the 
 North Riding of Yorkshire Rifle Volunteers, consisting 
 of 12 companies, and about 750 men, 4376. Not more 
 than half the men pay for their own clothing, 4379. 
 There is no provision for the renewal of the clothing, 
 4387. Further material assistance from the Government 
 IS necessary to j)revent half the corps in the battalion 
 coming to an end, 4388. The men are tolerably well- 
 drilled, 4391, The adjutant receives no extra iiay, 4396. 
 nie drill instructors are generally over-paid, 4397, 4398. 
 The great defect of the corps is the inefficiency of the 
 officers and non-commissioned officers, 4399. If the 
 Government relieves the officers of the expenses which 
 now fall on them it may institute some test of their 
 efficiency, 4400-4402. The volunteers in his district 
 are perfectly fit for garrison duty, and in three months' 
 time, if embodied, could be made equal to the disemljodied 
 mihtia, 440,3-4405. 4410-4414. The more nearly the 
 force assumes the character of the regular army tlie more 
 efficient it will be, 4406, 4-!07. If the Government give 
 further assistance, every corps should be made to 
 keep accounts, as they are kept in the regular army ; 
 and the commanding officers of the corjis should he 
 responsible to the commanding officer of the adminis- 
 trative battalion, who should himself be responsible 
 to the War Office, 4415. The commanding officer of 
 an administrative battalion should enforce a unifoiTn 
 drill throughout the battalion, 4416. The more im- 
 mediately the drill instructors can be jilaced under tlie 
 authority of the general commanding the district, the 
 better; drill instructors generally conduct themselves 
 well, but they have too much time on their nands, and 
 they have been spoiled by over-pay, 4420. 
 
 DiLLWYN, Major Lewis Llewellyn, M.P. : 
 
 Commands the 3rd Glamorganshire Rifle Volunteers, 
 consisting of four comiianies, 4232, 42.'53. Some further 
 assistance to the force is necessary, in respect to botli 
 clothing for the privates, and assistance towards the regi- 
 mental exjienses, 4237. Cloth should be given for tlie 
 uniforms, and officers should be relieved from the regi- 
 mental expenses which now fall on them, and which 
 sometimes prevent the best men becoming officers, and 
 oblige the officers to economize in other ways in their 
 relations with their corps, 4238-4244. The numbers of 
 the force should be limited, if further aid is given to it, 
 4240,4254-4269,4263. Aid should _only be given on 
 account of efficient men, 4245—1247. To limit the 
 numbers of the force liy withholding further aid would 
 be a prohibition of the volunteers in certain districts, and 
 would destroy some of the best cor])S, 4248—425.'!, 4260- 
 4262. The volunteers throughout Ghmorganshire arc 
 in an efficient state, anil will become more efficient if the 
 suggestions already enumerated are adopted, 4261-4273. 
 The volunteer movement has liad good effe' t on the moral 
 and industrial character of tile jieople of the county, 
 4274-4276. The corps does not contain the class u" 
 men who would be likely to enter the militia or the 
 regular army, 4277, 4278. In case of invasion, there 
 would be no difficulty in getting the men together, 
 because most of the works would sto]) or be at half work, 
 4281, 4282. 
 
 DrEGHORX, LlEt;TEN.\NT-C0I,0NEL : 
 
 Commands the 3rd Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteer Corps 
 of nine companies and about 600 men, 1468-1472. The 
 number of effectives is kept up, 1473. Is pro\'ided with 
 rifle ranges and drill sheds paid for by the corps, 1474, 
 1475. The annual subscription of 2s. ChI. each has not 
 been very well paid by the men, 1476, 1477- Nearly 
 2,000/. were raised for the first two comjianies, 1478. 
 Doubts very much being able to maintain the efficiency 
 of his corps, as the members wiU not renew their 
 clothing without assistance, and the public mil not 
 again subscribe any large amount, 1479-1482. At the 
 commencement of the \'olunteer movement in Glasgow a 
 fund of 3,000Z. was raised and spent in aiding the men to 
 meet the expense of their uniforms, 1485-1491. A pro- 
 posal was made to ap])ly that amount to jiroviding head 
 quarters and ranges, but rejected, 1492-1494. Those 
 compinies who did not provide their own clothing will be 
 less likely to be able to renew it, 1495-1497. Very little 
 has been done with honorary members; subscriptions from 
 the public and the men are the only sources of income, 
 1498, 1499. The organization in Glasgow has been 
 entirely by companies, and the subscriptions differ in 
 almost every two companies, 1500-1503. There are 
 from 6,000 to 7,000 volunteers in Glasgow, of whom 
 three-fourths will disappear unless aid is given, 1504, 
 1505, 1512. A money grant for each effective should be 
 given to the commanding officers to provide clothing and 
 aid towards butts, rifle ranges, &c, 1506, 1507. l*he 
 battalion is lOOl. in debt irrespective of the company ex- 
 penses, 1508. Tlie uniform and accoutrements cost 3/. 6.?., 
 1509-1511. Only a money grant would keep up the mem- 
 bers, the financial difficulty bring the only one, 1613, 1514. 
 A grant of .30s. for each effective would be sufficient, and 
 would not be objected to by the \'olunteers if ndministered 
 through commanding officers, 1615,1516, 1535-1551. It 
 should be applied to the assistance of those memljers who 
 required it, and to the formation of a battalion fund, 
 1517. If the 30s. were given, subscriptions from the 
 privates could be almost entirely done away with, 1618. 
 None of it should be applied to the band expenses, 1519. 
 There are companies of self-supjiorting volunteers in his 
 corps ; their attendance and efficiency does not differ 
 much from that of the others, 1523-1526. The artizau 
 companies, who are clothed by their employers, attend 
 very well, 1625-1527. More than one-third of the volun- 
 teers in Glasgow equi])pcd themseh-es at their own ex- 
 pense, 1628-1531. None of the working men in his corps 
 belong to a class who would join the militia, 1534. Any 
 one of respectable character, whatever his earnings may 
 be, is admitted into his corps, except mere labourers, 
 1536, 1537. Almost all his men are liable to the baUot 
 for the militia, but thinks none have joined to escape 
 it, 1638, 153i», 1583. Volunteers \\'ho have recei\-ed as- 
 sistance are as zealous and as regulai'in attending their 
 drills as those who have paid everything for themselves, 
 1540, 1641, 1659. The issue of so many yards of 
 cloth to each comjiany would be less objectionable than 
 that of ready-made clothing, 1542. The price of the 
 uniform could not be reduced enough to enable volun- 
 teers in his corps to provide it themselves, 1544, 1545. 
 
 B 4
 
 ANALYSIS OF KVIDENCE TAKKN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONEKS APPOINTED 
 
 UiiBGiioRN, LiEUTENANT-CoLONEl, — Continued. 
 
 None of the volunteers are men who misht go into the 
 militia or the line. Finds the, intrmhiction of ai-tizan, 
 into his corps to he very useful, 154(), 157()-I578. A 
 urant of 21. a head would cover the whole expenditure, 
 1,")4!), 1550. It is not right that volunteers who give 
 their time should he called upon to give money also, 
 1.5.i2. The enrolment of volunteers improves then- social 
 liuhits, and has the hest effect upon artizans, 1554-lo5(!, 
 157;V1575. The members give their time regularly to 
 their drills, and many have passed through a musketry in- 
 struction course; has company drills every week, 15(i3- 
 ].")().'). The volunteer force is supported by extraneous aid 
 given by certain individuals, the mass of the pubhc who 
 derive the benefit do not pay anything towards it, 15()8- 
 1571. The volunteer force" would be increased by the 
 enforcement of the ballot for the militia, 158l'. Exenti])- 
 tion from civil duties would have no effect in inducing 
 men to volunteer, 1584, 1585. Volunteers prefer serving 
 under military command when gathered in large 
 numbers, 158U, 1587. Would hold tlic men responsible 
 for the clothing issued to them from Government funds, 
 and would not let a man resign until the uniform was 
 worn out, unless he paid for it, 1588, 1592. Thinks 
 volunteers would not accept uniforms which had already 
 been in use, 1593, 1594. An early decision on the ques- 
 tion of Government aid is of im])ortance with regard to 
 the permanence of the force, as the uniform generally is 
 now worn out, 15!)5, 169(i, 1603, 1605. Meetings were 
 held at Glasgow at which the view taken was that a 
 capitation grant should be made by Government to be ex- 
 pended at the discretion of the commanding officer solely 
 upon things essential for the maintenance of the force, 
 1597-1600. Anything like payment for their services 
 would be re]nidiated by the volunteers, 1601. The 
 Government money would be perfectly safe and well 
 administered in the hands of commanding officers, 1602. 
 AVhile in London met many volunteer officers who had 
 made up their minds on the subject of Government^ aid 
 in the same sense in which he has spoken, 1606, 1607. 
 
 Edwards, Lieutenant Edward : 
 
 Is adjutant of the 1st Administrative Battalion of 
 Warwickshire Rifle Volunteers, consisting of 10 corps, 
 3666-3668. Between 400 and 500 men muster at batta- 
 lion drills, 3670. Has ojiportunities of seeing e\-ery man 
 in the battalion, 3671, 3672. Two thirds of the mem- 
 bers on an average have passed through a course of 
 musketi-y instruction, and all are thoroughly drilled, 
 3678-3683. The rifle instruction is carried on by the 
 Serjeant instructors, 3684-3686. Beyond the superin- 
 tendence of drill and musketry instruction, an adjutant 
 of an administrative battalion has very little to do, 3687- 
 3690. The commanding officer of an administrative 
 battalion has hardly enough control over the management 
 of the different corps in it, but it would not be ad\-an- 
 tageous to the service to make any alteration in the 
 matter, 3691-3694. Receives no extra allowance from 
 the volunteers, 3700-3701. Sustains a considerable 
 loss in travelling expenses, 3704-3710. _ In a few 
 weeks the Warwiclcshire Volunteers might be made an 
 efficient force, 3711-3715, 3762, 3784-3789. But their 
 clothing win soon need renewal, and they are not pre- 
 pared to pay for renewing it, 3716, 3717. Their arms 
 and accoutrements are in a satisfactory state, 3719-3726, 
 3779 There are three ways in which the Go\'ernment 
 may assist the volunteers, 3732 ; first, by establishing a 
 central school for drill instructors, from which they 
 should be temjiorarily detached from ser\-ice with volun- 
 teer corps, and by giving them better pay than tliejire- 
 sent drill instructors, who are worth very little, 3733- 
 3758 ; secondly, by defraying under certain regulations 
 the railway exjienses incurred in attending battalion drill, 
 3759, 3760 ; and thirdly, by assistance in the provision 
 of clothing, 376O. The Government should not issue 
 cloth to the volunteers, but allow to each corps a sum of 
 money equal to the amount of subscriptions from its 
 eftectiVe members, 3761. With this money the com- 
 manchng officer should pay all expenses and start a 
 clothing fund, .3/72. A single colour should be jire- 
 scribed for the unifonn of the whole force, 3764-3770 ; 
 and the commanding officer should obtain suits of 
 clothing ft'om the Government factory at Pimlico, 3790- 
 3801. The number of volunteers in the county is in- 
 creasing, but there are considerable arrears of subscrip- 
 tions, 3776, •3777. The facility with which men can leave 
 the force has no bad effect, 378,3. The enrolment of 
 volunteers docs not interfere with recruiting for the 
 militia, 3802. 
 
 Enfield, the Viscount : 
 
 Is Honorary Colonel of the 29th Middlesex Rifle Volun- 
 teer Corps, 7-J5. Unless some means arc adopted to remedy 
 the financial difficulty there will be a great falling off in the 
 numbers of the force, 747, 748. It is not ]irobable tliat the 
 members of the corps will he able to bear the expense of 
 renewing their unifonn, 756, 780, 781. If it had not 
 been for the expense of the band the corps would have 
 been able to jiay its way, 761. The corps gives extra pay 
 to its drill instructors, but not to its adjutants, 763, 764. 
 If any Government grant is given it should be vested in 
 the commanding officer, and he should be held res]ion- 
 sible by the (lovernment for it, 77-1. The grant should 
 lie 20s. for every efficient man ])resent at the official 
 inspection of the corps, 775, 816. A corps_ought to 
 keep up one band at a moderate expense, 78.3, 785. The 
 ajqilication of the Go\-ernment grant should be limited 
 to certain items, 789 ; and the commanding officer 
 should send in annually a projier account of its expen- 
 diture, to be regularly audited, 790, 796. All the com- 
 ])anies of the corps, except two, consist almost entirely 
 of artizans, 7!'9. About 50 pev cent, of the members 
 is the maximum muster, 800, 801. It would be ad- 
 visable to double up small corps, and, if possible, to 
 di^^de London into districts, permitting men to volunteer 
 only within their own districts, 806-808. 
 
 EwENS, Captain Alexander : 
 
 Is Adjutant of the City of London Rifle Volunteer 
 Brigade, consisting of 1,217 men, 1364, 1365. A paid 
 quartermaster should be appointed to the London corps 
 generally, who would have charge over transit, com- 
 missariat, ammunition, armoury, and camp duties, 1366, 
 1367-1397. The balance in hand at present is over 2,000/,, 
 1370, 1371. Apprehends a falling off in the subscriptions 
 and donations, 1372-1379. The expense of the band is 
 (iOOZ. a year, the total annual expenditure for the last 3 
 years averages 3,000Z., derived from subscriptions and 
 donations, 1380-1385, 1389-1393. The want of officers in 
 his corps is not caused by the expenses to which they are 
 liable, 1402. Receives 200Z. a year from the corps, 1412. 
 Extra pay is given to four drill instructors, 1417. Their 
 Government pay is not sufficient, 1427. The corps has 
 fallen off nearly one-fourth, ]jartly on account of the ex- 
 penses and late hours, 1439-1441, 1462-1467. There is 
 a secretary to the corps with a salary of 120/. per annum, 
 1445_14-iV. Musters 400 to 600 men on field days, 1459. 
 
 Grosvenor, the Earl: 
 
 Commands the Queen's Westminster Rifle \'olunteer 
 Corps of two battalions, the largest corps in London, 
 2106,2107. The pay of adjutants should be increased 
 so as to put them on the same footing as those in the 
 militia, 21 08-21 1 1 . His adjutant receives 50/, out of the 
 funds, 2112, 2113. When he had a vacancy, received 
 innumerable applications for it, 21 15. The Government 
 pay allowed to Serjeants is sufficient, 2117. They get 
 fees for looking after the arms, &c., 2118. The mini- 
 mum number of a company in towns should I)e 110, 
 2119-2125. Government assistance is necessary to main- 
 tain the ^'olunteer force in its present condition, 2126- 
 2161. A minimum grant of 1/. a head should be given 
 through the commanding officer on the guai'antee of a cer- 
 tain numljer of attendances at drill, and a])plied entirely 
 at his discretion, 2127-2131, 2151. Would spend such a 
 sum in obtaining a larger range and knapsacks and de- 
 fraying travelling expenses to drills, &c., 21.'32-2135. 
 Thinks eflicient adjutants cannot lie obtained for the 
 present pay, 2138,2139. The aimual subscription is 1/.; 
 there is great and increasing difficulty in getting it paid, 
 2140-2142. The attendance is not so good as last year, 
 as the men think they know their drill, 2145, 2M6. 
 Early field-days lead to tliat belief, 2147. Field-days 
 should be held at the close of the season, 2149, 2150. 
 Regulations for volunteers should be few and simple, 
 2161. 
 
 Harcourt, Major Edward W. V. Vernon: 
 
 Has been in communication -ivitli the Admiralty in re- 
 ference to certain C|Uestions put by him to Capt. H. Boys, 
 and with the object oi' explaining why he ])ut these ques- 
 tions, hands in a letter, dated War Office, 7th No\'. 1861, 
 informing him that the Commissioners of the Admiralty 
 have intimated their willingness to appropriate a ship 
 occasionally to the drilling of tlie corps under his com- 
 mand, but have stated also that no vessel is likely to be 
 available for the purpose for some time to come, 3365, 
 3366.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 Harman, Lieutenant-Colonel : 
 
 Is Assistant-Inspector of Volunteers in the Northern 
 Division, which contains 107 corps, and 15,000 or 1(),000 
 men, 40,57-405!). Their condition is {jfi'Mi'lb' satis- 
 factory, except in point of finance, 40(!0, -10!)5— 10!)!'. The 
 majority of corps in the North are composed of artizans 
 who consider it enoufjli to ^ive tlicir time and attention ; 
 and there is no pro\'ision for renewing; tlie cl<ithinf;, 
 which is begiiming to be worn ont, -JOIil, -lOlil.'. At in- 
 spections the town corps muster ahout lialf their enroUed 
 strength, tlie country ones about two-thirds, -KX!.'). Tlic 
 commanding ofSeer of an administrative l)attahon has 
 not snflicient antliority, ^OfJC— lOfiS." Tlie arms are gene- 
 rally in good condition, 40()i)— 1071. In administrative 
 battalions tlie officers are generally very deficient, espe- 
 cially the field officers, -1072, 4073,' 412!)-414!). In con- 
 solidated battalions the officers are in 'a higher state of 
 efficiency, 4132—114,9. A man should be reckoned an 
 effective if he comes up to a certain standard, not if he 
 attends a certain nvimber of drills ; and no Government 
 grant should be given for any man who does not come up 
 to that standard, 4087-1087.! 4;)!)1-40!M. The adjutants 
 would have more avitliority if they had some other title, 
 such as " deputy assistant inspector," 4088. A test of 
 efficiency should be a]iplied to officers as well as to men, 
 4101 . Adjutants might perhajjs in some cases have the 
 authority of dejiuty assistant inspectors, under the orders 
 of the field officers commanding the battalions, 4102- 
 4107. The volunteers should be all clothed nearly alike, 
 4110, 41 11. The present equipment of tlie volunteers is 
 sufficient for peace time, but would require completion 
 before they could take the field effectively, 4112—4124. 
 Drill Serjeants should be placed more immediately under 
 the control of the adjutant, and should be sent from the 
 head-quarters of the administrative battalion to such of 
 the corps as might require instruction, 4134, 4136. The 
 travelling allcn'ance for adjutants is insufficient, 4135. 
 The pay of an assistant inspector is insufficient, 413()- 
 4144. Has no defined powers as assistant inspector, but 
 has experienced no difficulty from the want of them, 
 4145-4161. 
 
 Hudson, Lieutenant-Colonel Joseph : 
 
 Is Superintendent of the Royal Army Clothing Factory 
 at Pimlico, 3!)0(); believes that it is intended to confine 
 the issue of Government cloth to four colours, 3!)03, 
 3!)07-3909; thinks the volunteers would get their 
 clothing better, and perhaps rather cheajier, by availing 
 themselves of the issue of cloth by Government, 3904- 
 3906, 3917-3924. The Government clothing estabhsh- 
 ment could not at present undertake to issue the clothing 
 made up ; but perhaps the Government could contract 
 for it as they do in the case of the army, 3928, 3929. 
 
 Hughes, M.\jor Tho.mas": 
 
 Conmianded the 19th Middlesex Rifle Volunteer, 1045. 
 There are 7'12 men on the muster roll of the corjis, and 
 within the last year there have been 30 or 40 more with- 
 drawals than entrances, 1048. The financial jiosition of 
 the corps is satisfactory, and there will be no difficulty in 
 getting the uniforms renewed, 1049-1060, 1088, 112.3- 
 1128. The Government Serjeants have lodging, coals, and 
 candles given them by the corps, but no extra allowance, 
 1065-1067, 1151. The force has been demoralized by 
 excessive expenditure, and if the Government gi\'e any 
 further assistance, it should only do so on conditions 
 which would jnit an end to this extravagance, 1070-1075, 
 1097, 1098, lUlO-1115. It is necessary to give further 
 assistance if the jiresent numbers are to be kept up, 
 1074, 1082, 1083, 1097, 1100-1103, 112!)-1131. Twelve 
 shillings for each effective who has passed into the first 
 class, and ap]iears at the inspection, would be a sufficient 
 grant from Government to kce]) the corps in a satisfactory 
 state, 1076-1078. The grant should be expended in 
 accordance •\\ith a specification sent in by the commanding 
 officer, 107<)-1081, 1165-1169. It should only bo given 
 for first class men, because the force, whatever its num- 
 bers, should be in the highest possible state of efficiency, 
 1084-1086. The tendency to diminished numbers is 
 owing to the failure of those who entered the force from 
 frivolous motives, and constitute its least valuable por- 
 tion, 1090-101)6, 1116-1120. The adjutant receives no 
 extra allowance, 1152-1155, and is sufficiently employed, 
 1158, 1159. Further (jovernment aid would not alter 
 the character of the force, 11()2-1164. The corps is the 
 poorest in London ; three companies of it are composed 
 of men from the Working Men's College, and the rest 
 consist of artizans, clerks, warehousemen, shopmen, &c., 
 1087, 1171-1175. 
 
 Humberston, Captain Piiilh' Stapleton, M.P. : 
 
 Is Captain Commandant of the 6th ("heshire Rille 
 Volunteer C^orps, 4162. The suI)scriptions have the 
 cfiFect of keejiing men away from drill ; an allowauee of 
 1/. for every elfective would jiay the current expenses of 
 his corps exclusive of clotliing, and 2/. woidd enable it 
 to keep up its numbers and clothe the same number of 
 men that it now lias who arc clothed by fneans of the 
 suliscriptious, 4163. An equivalent should be given to 
 tlie volunteers for their services, and they should also 
 have facilities for sliooting and for obtaining ranges, 
 4167-4170. There should also be a power of sti)p|)ing 
 roads on their behalf; 4167-4168. Adjutants should 
 have higher pay, 4171. 
 
 Innes, Captain Alexandeu. 
 
 Commands the 1st Kincardineshire Artillery Volunteer 
 Cor])s, of tivo liatteries and 120 men, 100 of wlioni are 
 effective, 3043-3046. The corps is not attaclied to a 
 brigade, 3047. Has company and battery drills regu- 
 larly, 3048. Has a private battery close to head-(piartcrs, 
 mounting three 32-pounder guns of position. Takes 
 detachments to Aberdeen, 14 mdes distant, where there 
 are two batteries of royal artillery, for the jjurjiose of 
 driU with 68-pounders, 3049-3051, 3063. A drill-in- 
 structor in receipt of regular pay is jiernianently attached 
 to the corps, 3052-3054. The members are armed with 
 carbines, 3056. A small projiortion of the members 
 provide their own uniforms, but a considerable number 
 are clothed by private contriliutions : one battery com- 
 posed of fishermen living on his estate was supplied 
 entirely by himself with a dress such as is worn by the 
 Royal Artillery when employed on the Mediterranean 
 stations, 3058-3061. Has had between 80 and !)0 drills 
 in the course of the year, and considers that the statutory 
 mimber of drills necessary for an effective should be 
 increased, 3061, 3062. His battery is very comjilete in 
 its formation ; the platforms were sujiplied by Govern- 
 ment, but the rest of it principally by himself, 3064- 
 3067. Has a magazine for about 60 cases, 3068. 
 Has a Government instructor, a eorjioral in the Coast 
 Brigade, who takes charge of the guns and stores, 3070- 
 30/2. Has a range in front of the battery where the men 
 practise about 20 times a year with shot and shell, 3075- 
 3077. Government aid would tend very much to the 
 efficiency of the \'olunteer force. One half should be 
 given to those volunteers who had served as such for five 
 years and the other half for the ])urpose of improving 
 the administration of the force, 3078-3080, .3135. The 
 ^■olunteers would ha\'e no objection to be placed even more 
 than at present under the district officers of the Royal 
 Artillery, 30!)0-30i).3. The use of the carbine by artillery 
 volunteers is of great importance and an inducement to 
 volunteers to enrol and maintain themselves, 3094. The 
 seafaring men of his corps are not armed with carbines, 
 3095. There is an association for prize firing with great 
 guns and carbines, 3097, 3098. Has not been able to 
 have battalion drill, 3099. Twenty-four drills in march- 
 ing, gun drill, and parades in the course of the year 
 would be enough to keep up the efficiency' of an effective 
 volunteer, .3 100-31 ()>'). Is supplied with .32-pounders. 
 Has provided at his own expense tackle, skids, and gyns 
 for rc])ository work, .3104. Generally has gun jiractice 
 and gun drill together, 3105. There arc two rifle cor]is 
 in the same district, but recruiting for one arm does not 
 interfere with that for the other, 3109. .Ml the men 
 go through a course of theoretical instruction in boring 
 and fixing i'lizes, trajectory, and the science of artillery 
 generally, 3110, 3111. Varying the drills is beneficial to 
 the men and secures a better attendance; repository 
 exercises are also very salutary; facilities for obtaining 
 a knowledge of gun drill at ships' guns should be 
 afforded seafaring men near their own homes, .3125- 
 ■31.32. His corps generally is in a healthy condition, 
 3133. Government aid, although it is not alisolutely 
 necessary, would very materially assist it, 31.34. Tlie 
 battery which is composed of seafaring men is at 
 ju'esent in a state cajiablc of rendering efficient ser- 
 vice, and his men generally are in a state fit for actual 
 service with field guns, 31.36-3138. A non-commissioned 
 oflicer of the Royal Artillery is in charge of the guns 
 generally and the side arms, to kee]) tliem in order, for 
 which he is responsible, 3158, 3159. The constitution of 
 the \-oluntcer force as a useful and iriilitary body must 
 depend on its organization and superintendence by C(mi- 
 petent and qualified officers ; great advantage is derived 
 from the instruction and assistance afforded by the super- 
 vision of oflicers apjiointed by Government to inspect and 
 superintend the force ; it should be felt that the force is 
 under the more active encouragement and superinten-
 
 10 
 
 ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COSIMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Innes, Captain Alexander — continued. 
 
 denee of the deputy lieutenants ; the duties, authority, 
 and standing of the officers should he lietter defined and 
 vindicated ; great advantage would be derived by affording 
 tile gunners more extended instruction in mounting and 
 dismounting heavy ordnance, by practice with guns of 
 different cahbre. by mutual interchange of ammunition, 
 and by opportunities for assembUng of several corps 
 together, yi()6. 
 
 JoNKS, Lieutenant-Colonel Douglas : 
 
 Is Assistant Insi)ector of the North-eastern Division 
 of Scotland, containing about 153 corps, 195.3-1955. 
 They are not all in an efficient state, 195(). Some are 
 deficient in drill from want of proper instruction, and in 
 equipment, 1957-1961. Government instructors cannot 
 be provided for all at present, 1958. Consolidated are 
 better drilled than administrative battalions, 1959. The 
 best instructors are those obtained by commanding 
 officers through their own friends in the army, 1962. 
 Good instructors are essential to volunteer corps, 1963- 
 1964. Does not always obtain satisfactory musters at 
 his inspections ; a little more tlian half the members 
 turn out on an average, 1965-1967. Many keep away 
 in consequence of not being sufficiently (h'iUed, 1968. 
 The pouches are defective, 1969-1970. Good waterproof 
 havresacks would be better at present for volunteers than 
 knapsacks, 1971, 1972. Very few are equipped with 
 havresacks, 1973. The clothing of the men is not 
 complete, 1975. None have great coats, 1976, 1977. 
 Light cloaks are preferable to great coats for volunteers, 
 
 1980. Something in addition to the tunic is desirable, 
 
 1981. Has heard no complaints about insufficiency of 
 the pay for adjutants, 1982. The present pay of drill 
 instructors is not sufficient; they ought to be men of 
 tact, and good drills, and superior to militia Serjeants, who 
 receive more pay, 1983-1989. The Serjeants receive 
 gratuities chiefly for cleaning arms, 1990-1991. One 
 Serjeant is sufficient for two companies when together, 
 1992-1995. A militia adjutant would be perfectly fit for 
 the appointment in a volunteer corps, 1996. Volunteer 
 adjutants are sufficiently paid except as regards travelling 
 allowance to adjutants of administrative battalions, but 
 the circumstances are different in different battalions. 
 With two or three exceptions the adjutant in his divi- 
 sion are very good ; nine have been raised from the ranks, 
 and 20 are from Her Majesty's European and East Indian 
 army. In the artillery they have chiefly risen ft-om the 
 ranks, 1997-2007. Tliere will be great difficulty in main- 
 taining the corps at their present strength unless assist- 
 ance is given, 2008. To each effective who thoroughly 
 knows his duty, and has passed through the musketry 
 instruction course, clothing should be given ; and an 
 allowance for each should be made to the commanding 
 officer, who should account to the Government how it 
 was expended, 2009-2011. AU the adjutants have 
 not qualified themselves by going to Hythe, 2013. At 
 inspections, examines the musketry drill and practice 
 returns, but the corps are not bound to produce them, 
 2014-2017. Great attention is paid to the registers of 
 musters, drill, and musketry instruction ; they are kept 
 by the Serjeant instructors, 2018, 2019. These registers 
 should be subject to the supervision of the inspector, 
 2020. Drill is more important than shooting, 2021,2022. 
 The volunteers are thoroughly trained in the manual, 
 platoon, and aiming drill, which they can practise in the 
 winter under cover, 2023. Men who are considered 
 effectives by the commanding officer judging with the 
 assistance of the adjutant, should be returned as such, 
 irrespective of the number of drills they may have 
 attended; 2024-2029. The inspecting officer when he 
 went round could see whether the men individually had 
 been properly driUed or not, 2030-2031 , 2035-2036. The 
 manual andplatoon drill is not a good test, 2032 ; nor 
 is the 24 drills, 2037-2038. About one-third, or one- 
 fourth of the corps in his division are self-supporting, 
 one half contribute a portion, and one-fourth give 
 nothing whatever. 2043-2045. Unless further aid is 
 given, the numbers will decrease, especially in the case 
 of artizans, who are the best drilled men, 2046-2056, 
 2081. An early decision on the question is of import- 
 ance, 2057- In some corps new clothing is imme- 
 diately required, 2058, 2059. Volunteers on joining 
 should provide their own clothing, and be supplied with 
 uniform and accoutrements by Government after being 
 two years effective, 2060-2062. Second-hand clothes 
 would be worn by those who would wish to be pro- 
 vided for, 2064-2066. Clothing would be the most 
 acceptable aid that could be given ; some corps, who can 
 
 Jones, Lieutenant-Colonel Dougla.s — continued. 
 
 afford to pro\-ide clothing their own, would not accept 
 from Government, 2067-2069. The subscriiJtions in 
 the corps in his district vary from 5s. to 21. a year, and 
 a portion of the men pay nothing, 2070. Marching 
 money should be given to administrative battiiUons 
 to defray expenses of battalion drill, 2072. Would 
 like to see all the incidental expenses of volunteer 
 corps defrayed by Government, 2077. Artizans who 
 have volunteered have improved very much in a social 
 point of view, 2078, 2079. They' foi-m nearly one- 
 half of the volunteer force in his district, 2080. 
 There is unnecessary extravagance with regard to bands ; 
 by a little effort they might be formed at little expense, 
 2084, 2085. If Government insisted upon annual re- 
 turns of shooting being made, it would be an advan- 
 tage, and would be liked by the corps, 2087-2091, 
 2095-2098. Volunteers would be more satisfied if a 
 stricter system of discipline were gradually enforced, 
 2092-2094. Rifle ranges are easily obtained in Scotland, 
 except in the large towais, 2103. 
 
 Knight, Lieutenant-Colonel Fredehick Winn, 
 M.P. : 
 
 Commands the 1st Administrative Battalion of Wor- 
 cestershire Rifle Volunteers, consisting of 1 1 companies 
 and 936 men, 3571-3573. Has \\l. per company from 
 the county fund apjilied to tva^•elling expenses for field 
 days, 3574, 3609. The battalion is composed of men of 
 every class, .3575. The men will not generally re-clothe 
 themselves, 3577. They will not be able to get subscrip- 
 tions again ; in the three years at least 1,000/. have been 
 spent from each district for each company, 3578. Has an 
 adjutant, who receives 130/. a year in addition to his 
 jiay ; the adjutant ought to have a serj eant-major 
 allowed to him, 3582. The adjutant is constantly at 
 work and sees the corps very frequently ; the men have 
 gone through a course of musketry, 3583, 3584. The 
 battalion drills are generally wing-drills of from two to 
 four companies; they are well attended, .3590, 3591. 
 Officers should be those whom the rest of the men will 
 follow and like to serve under; many of the subalterns 
 are very competent and take great pains with their duties, 
 3593, 3594. Cannot go on much longer without Govern- 
 ment aid, 3595. There are three heads under which 
 assistance ought to be given: — 1st, the increase of 
 the efficiency of the permanent staff; 2nd, uniform; 
 and 3rd, incidental expenses, including head-quarters, 
 armouries, drill grounds, repair of arms, company's sta- 
 tionery, &c. grants, pontoon kettles, canteens, and 
 expense attending field days, and petty cash disburse- 
 ments, 35!)6-3602. In addition to what is at present 
 paid for the staff, 21. should be allowed by Government 
 for each volunteer to cover all expenses, except for bands, 
 3603-3606. Has not the least doubt of the returns of 
 effectives and non-effectives being correctly kept, 3610. 
 Not less than 24 drills a year are required for recruits; 
 after the first year two drills a month in summer and 
 one drill a month in winter would be required, exclusive 
 of target practice, 3611-3613. It is absolutely necessary 
 for the adjutant to have an office, and at his own house; 
 there is no battahon orderly-room ; the adjutant should 
 have an allowance for house rent, 3617-3620. The 
 battalion will not continue to exist at all unless some- 
 thing is done for it ; the allowance for clothing would be 
 taken by almost e\'ery man, by nine-tenths ceriainl_y, 
 3621-3627, 3629, 3630. An immediate decision upon the 
 question is important, 3628. In Worcestershire there 
 are two battalions, 21 companies, and 1,636 men, 3631. 
 The force in that county is at present in a satisfactory 
 condition as to the arms and accoutrements, and its dis- 
 cipline and organization, and in case of emergency it 
 would be jirepared to render efficient serv'ice, 3632-363/. 
 The existing force may be maintained, and rather increased 
 in numbers and efficiency, if assistance of the kind he 
 has mentioned is given, 3638, 3639. Has found no 
 difficulty in obtaining proper officers, and those of the 
 Worcester volunteers are fully competent to command 
 their companies on a battalion field day, 3641, 3642. 
 If no assistance should be given, the corps would fall 
 away when the time comes for renewing the clothing, 
 3643-3645. Volunteers should be exempt from service 
 on juries ; many of his men belong to the class who are 
 eligible to serve, 364()-3649. Has never found any diffi- 
 culty in enforcing his orders ; his position as com- 
 manding officer of an administrative battalion is satisfac- 
 toiy, 3653-3660. At field days the senior lieutenant- 
 colonel should command, if he is competent, 3661, 3662,
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION Of THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OREiVT BRITAIN. 
 
 11 
 
 Laird, Mr. John, M.P. : 
 
 Many volunteers on the coast would learn gun drill if 
 the Admiralty placed gunboats at their disposal at certain 
 hours, 2528-25;«), 2532, 2537. This would not interfere 
 with the Royal Na\-al Reserve, 2531. At' present the 
 artillery volunteer practise at Rock Fort, four miles down 
 the river, and a steamer is generally hired to take them 
 there for drill. They are not allowed to fire shot there, 
 2533-2535. A gunboat for drill would be more conveni- 
 ent, 2536. In Birkenhead and the neighboiu'hood four 
 companies of rifle volunteers were first formed, composed 
 of the better class, who jiaid all then' own expenses. Then 
 five additional companies were formed, comjiosed of 
 working men, who are assisted greatly by their officers and 
 others. The artillery volunteers were raised on dittcrent 
 ])rinciples, and com[)osed of men in large worlds, and 
 generally wholly or partly clothed by their employers. 
 Payment for clothing by the men is an important element 
 in the movement, 2540, 2542. Employs 2,500 men, of 
 whom about a twelfth are volunteers, 2541, 2542. Ex- 
 clusive of clothing, the expenses of corps are from 25s. 
 to 30s. a head per annum. Men who give their time 
 and provide their clothing cannot be expected to bear 
 the other expenses, 2543. Unless aid is given the corps 
 cannot go on, 2544. To ensure the permanency of 
 the movement would require 25s. or 30s, per effective, 
 exclusive of the uniform, for ti-aveUing expenses to drill, 
 storehouses, extra pay to Serjeants, and many other ex - 
 penses, 2545, 2546, 2548, 2549, 2571, 2588, 2592. There 
 is difficulty in obtaining efficient officers on account of the 
 expense, as they ai-e considered responsible for any defi- 
 ciency, 2546-2548, 2563. In the rifle volunteer corps 
 corps extra pay is given to Government Serjeants, 2550. 
 Working men and artizans shoidd find their own clothing, 
 but be relieved from all other expense, 2551, 2552, 2584, 
 2593, 2595. Regarding the different classes of «'hich 
 the force is com])Osed, Government aid may reasonably 
 be expected, 2553 ; which may be higher for ai-tizans and 
 working men than for other classes, 2554, 2589, 2558-61, 
 2593. A capitation grant paid to the commanding offi- 
 cers, to be properly accounted for, would be the simplest 
 way of giving assistance, 2555-2557. Rifle prizes have 
 done good, but they should have been of much less value, 
 2565-2567. There is only one review in Cheshire in 
 the year, on account of the exjjense, 2568. The patriotic 
 feeling in which the movement originated remains undi- 
 minished, and members would enrol themselves if it were 
 not for the ex])ense, 2569, 2570. The Government would 
 be amply justified in advancing 30s. a head to assist the 
 volunteer movement; it would be the best expenditure 
 possible, 2572, 2576. The volunteer movement exercises 
 a valuable moral and social influence on the volunteers, 
 and has been of great value beyond originating a means 
 of protection, 2573-2575. Government assistance and 
 efficiency should depend one upon the other, but too 
 much interference would do harm, 2577-2580. If assist- 
 ance were given, any number of respectable mechanics 
 could be obtained, 2581. The intelhgent classes in his 
 neighbourhood concur in the ojjinion he has expressed 
 before the Commission, 2582, 2583. Enrolment of the 
 working class does not interfei-e with recruiting for the 
 line or militia. Some of the men get 30s., 40s., and 50s. 
 a week ; the lowest would be perhaps 20s., 2597-2599. 
 At first the men obtained arms for themselves, 2601, 
 2602. Any issue of clothing should be made on one 
 principle, not with one class of men paying and the 
 others not, 2603. 
 
 Laye, Captain Henry Thomas : 
 
 Commands the 3rd North Riding of Yorkshire Artil- 
 lery Volunteer Corps of one battery, and 80 men, 3367- 
 3371. The corps has its own guns, two garrison 
 32-pounders, 3372, 33/3, 3400. The men are armed 
 with carbines, 3375. The battery is supported by a 
 fund raised in the district, 3377. The men subscribe 
 10s. each annually. The officers subscribe more, 3378, 
 
 3379. The fund is not applied to the jirovision of 
 clothing, but to pay the carriage of ammunition &c., 
 
 3380, 3381 . The men clothe themselves, except 10 or 12, 
 3382-3384. The members are artificers, builders, and 
 architects, 3383. Anticipates no difficulty in renewing 
 the clothing, 3385. Government aid would be of great 
 assistance, 3386. The corps is su])])orted by honorary 
 members and liable to fluctuation, 3387. There are rifle 
 volunteers in his district. Recruiting for the one arm 
 does not interfere with recruiting for the other, 3388, 
 
 3389. Finds no difficulty in getting the men to drill, 
 
 3390. Has two drills a week regularly, besides recruit 
 drills. Some members have attended I70 drills in the 
 course of the year, 3391. Has carbine and big gun driU, 
 3392. The men attach great importance to the carbine ; 
 
 they could not do without it, and it makes the corps po- 
 pular, 3393, 3394. Has battalion drill. It is of the greatest 
 importance, but the cori)s wants money to mo\'e, 3395, 
 3396. A gunner sliould attend a few more than 24 drills 
 a year to be considered an cH'cctive, 3401. The officers 
 of the corps arc competent and zealous in attending drill, 
 .'i4()(). The ccrps was drilled by a master gunner, and it 
 has also the services of an adjutant, 3407. Had amoving 
 magazine built at a cost of al)out 1/. 10s., in which he 
 l)rings the cartridges, 3409, 3410. Has been put to 
 expense for conveyance of stores, 3411-3414. And 
 also for storing the Government stores, .3415-.3417. 
 The men ha\'e all gone through the fuse drill, 3418. 
 Has no organized method of moving guns on travelling 
 carriages by horses, 3421. Some of the men would learn 
 gun drill on board ship if facilities were; afforded them, 
 
 3423. His corps is financially in a healthy condition, 
 
 3424. If 1/. a man were allowed by Government it would 
 set the corps up well ; would prefer the aid in that form, 
 the commanding officer to use it to the best of his judg- 
 ment, 3426-3429. The poorest men in his corps receive 
 about 4s. a day as wages, 3431. They are valuable men, 
 and he would not like to lose them, 3432, 3433. The 
 clothing costs each man 5/., 3434. 
 
 LiNTOTT, Mr. William : 
 
 Is a private in the 7th Sussex Rifle Volunteer Corps, 
 and is well acquainted with the feehngs of the members, 
 2158-2160. The spirit which gave rise to the volunteer 
 movement is sufficiently strong to inspire confidence in 
 the permanence of the force; 2161, 22.36, 2237. The 
 numbers do not diminish, 2162. When the corps was 
 first formed 50 out of 80 men were supplied with uni- 
 fonns and accoutrements out of the fund, the others 
 provided theh' own, 2163-2167, 2185, 2270, 2271. Corps 
 consists of lietween 90 and 100 members, and foians part 
 of an administrative battalion, 2164, 2165. An account 
 of the ex])enditure is rendered every year, 21(;8. The 
 balance in hand is very small at present, 2169. The 
 money is expended in rent of armoury, ranges, and inci- 
 dental expenses. Until this year 60/. were paid annually 
 for Serjeant instructors, 2170, 2171. There is no annual 
 subscription; the fund, which hitherto has been 100/. a 
 year, is supported by honorary members, 2172-2174. 
 There will be very great difficulty in renen'ing the 
 clothing, 2175. The attendance at drill is as good as 
 ever, 2176. There are battalion drills four times a year; 
 the attendance is very good, 2177-2179, 2189. There is 
 nothing likely to interfere with the efficiency of the 
 corps but want of money, and especially funds to [jrovide 
 clothing ; if money is gi\'en the corps wQl increase, 
 2181, 2183. The corps is recruited from mechanics 
 principally, gentlemen, tradesmen, and farmers, 2184. 
 Attendance is not so good for some time after battalion 
 drills and field days, 2188. Artizans. and mechanics 
 attend best ; this arises from the others members having 
 to come from a distance, 219.3, 2194. Travelling ex- 
 ])enses to battalion drill are defrayed out of fund, 2198. 
 The dfill Serjeant receives no extra allowance, 219.9- 
 2201. The expenditure for clothing presses very heavily 
 on the funds; if relieved of that the corps would ask for 
 nothing more, 2215-2217, 2238, 223.9. Rehef from 
 expense of attending battalion drills would tend very 
 much to the permanence of the corps, 2218. The chief 
 difficulty artizans have to contend with is the money 
 they are out of pocket, 2219. If clothing were given 
 it would require 100/. a year to cover the other incidental 
 expenses, 2220, 2221. There would be no difficulty in 
 getting the men to weai- second-hand uniforms, 2227. 
 There are company drills once a week ; they are pretty 
 well attended, 2232, 2233. 30s. a head is necessary 
 to maintain the efficiency of the corps, 2242. It should 
 be given to the commanding officer, to be expended 
 according to an annual estimate, under Government 
 supervision, 2244-2248. The muster roll is accurately 
 kept, 2249, 2250. Many members attend more than the 
 24 drills a yeai', 2251. The majority of the men would 
 have sold their rifles to Government, if the ofler of the 
 Government to ])urchase them had not been withdrawn, 
 2252-2254. Prizes given by the officers and honorary 
 members are shot for once a year, 2256, 2257. The 
 band expenses are very small, and defrayed by a special 
 fund obtained from the pubUc, 2259-3262. Some of 
 the bandsmen, not all, are effective members, 2263. 
 Some give up their instiiiments and go into the ranks, 
 2264. The men are very ready to gi\'e their time, but 
 feel that nothing else should be required of them, 2265- 
 2268. Very few of the indi\idual members have been put 
 to any expense, 2269. 
 
 LocKHART, Mr. Jambs. Sen 
 
 Bell, Mr., Kcc. 
 C 2
 
 1^ 
 
 ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 LUARD, LlEUTEXANT-CoLONF.L RlCHAUl) : 
 
 Is Assistant Inspector of VoluntcLTS in the south- 
 eastern district, .'JStM. The corps in the district are 
 rather more slack in attendance at ih-iU than they nsed 
 to he, 3805, 3801). About two-tliirds assemble at insjicc- 
 tion, but some few subdi^'isions fail entirely, .■^807-380!). 
 There are about !),0()(l volunteers in the district, o81.'3. 
 The expense is greater than was exjiected, but it does 
 not interfere with the suiiply of officers, 0814, ,3815. 
 Assistance should be fjiven in kind, not in money, 3817, 
 38y(;-3899. The Government should jrive drill in- 
 structors to subdi\-isions, and pay, under certain regula- 
 tions, the tra-\-elling expenses of men who attend battalion 
 drill, 3818-3828. The Go^•ernment might also fairly pay 
 all the expenses of ranges and targets, 3828-3831. The 
 clothing should be issued by the Government at so much 
 a suit, 3832-3835. Has heard no complaint of the drill 
 instructors being badly ]iaid, 383(), 3837. They are 
 efficient, as a rule, 3844. The officers are the weak point 
 of the mo\-ement ; the field officers are more zealous 
 than the captains and subalterns ; it is doubtful whether 
 any system of examination of officers would work well, 
 3838-3842. After a volunteer knows his drill he might 
 be reckoned as an effective with fewer drills annually 
 than are now required, 3843-3848. The i]Ower of the 
 officer comraaiiding an administrative battahon is de- 
 fective, but there appears to be no remedy, 3849-3871. 
 The \'olunteers under his inspection are fairly efficient, and 
 with the assistance abeady specified their efficiency may be 
 maintained, without gi\'ing clothing, 3872-3888. It is 
 desirable to put the drill instructors of an administrative 
 battalion directly under the adjutant, and to let him drill 
 them at his head-quarters and send them to the different 
 corps at the discretion of the commanding officer of tlie 
 battalion and himself, .3889. There is not much difficulty 
 in obtaining drill instructors, .3890. The allowance for 
 tra\'elling expenses to assistant inspectors is insufficient, 
 3892. 
 
 Lyttelton, the Lord: 
 
 Is Lord Lieutenant of the county of Worcester, 1721. 
 There are 21 volunteer corps in the county, 1722. There 
 has been no falhng off, 1723. The maintenance of the 
 force without assistance is very doubtful, 17-4. The 
 corps have hitherto been supported by subscriptions and 
 donations, expended at the discretion of commanding 
 officers in providing rifle ranges, clothing, &c. ; the bat- 
 talions, by a county i'vmd recently estaljlished administered 
 by himself through the colonels of the t«'o battahons in 
 defraying the expenses of battalion drills, 1725-1730, 
 1737, 1738, I74O-I745. Battalion drills, which are well 
 attended, are encouraged by the commanding officers at 
 consideral)le trouble and expense, 1/31, 1732. Some 
 assistance, ]3rincipally towards provision of clothing, is 
 requisite to promote the efficiency of the corps, although 
 great efforts would lie made to go on if it was not 
 given, 1733, I734-I747. The volunteers have been 
 wholly or in part clothed by the subscriptions, and it is 
 doubtful whether they will be repeated, 1735, 1736. 
 County meetings and shooting matches are most popular 
 and the expenses easily met, 1 739. Expense of attending 
 battalion drills is a great burden, 174(). Prefers the 
 estimate plan to a capitation grant, 1748, 1/49. 250?. in 
 donations, and 70/. or 80/. a year has been raised by the 
 cmmty fund, and all spent in battalion drill expenses, 
 1751, 1752. Could not raise a count}- fund to meet all 
 expenses, 1753; and greatly doubts being able to do so 
 from local subscriptions for each corps, 1754. The mem- 
 bers contribute by subscriptions, 1755. The artizans 
 form the smaller proportion, but a good many are 
 enrolled, 175()-1758. Volunteers ought not to he ex- 
 pected to give a money contribution as well as their time 
 and services ; it would be just as much a volunteer force 
 if they were not required to do so, ]759-17(>2, 1763. 
 The permanent maintenance of the volunteer force is of 
 the greatest importance, 17G1. On a corps being enrolled, 
 obtained first from the commanding officer his personal 
 assurance that the corps should he maintained in a state 
 of efficiencj' for a certain number of years, 17fi5. Has 
 never had any inisatisfactory proposal to form a company, 
 17('8. The corps were organized solely through the cap- 
 tains, 17''9. Home volunteers have provided their omi 
 clothing, 1770. The rest were supplied with clothing 
 by the finance committee of each corps, 1771. Sees no 
 objection to men being enrolled who cannot provide their 
 own uniforms, but would object to any system which 
 interfered with recruiting for the line or militia, 177-- 
 1775. AW his corps are dressed in the same uniform, 
 177(1. The cost is between 3/. and 5/., 1777. Those 
 who cannot att'ord to give tlieir time cannot afford to 
 clotlie themselves, 1778'. Has heard frequent com- 
 
 Lyttelton, the Lord — continued. 
 
 plaints of irregularity in drill attendance, 1779. .\pproves 
 Government aid being regulated by some test of merit, 
 1780. Does not see how the jiresent expenditure can be 
 decreased, 1781, 1782. If the &nbscri])tions of the 
 privates ceased, and acco\itrements were jn'ovided, there 
 is Uttle doubt of the men clothing themselves, 1783. 
 Expects no difficulty in getting the men to wear second- 
 hand uniforms if good, although they might have some 
 feeling against it, 1785. Each corps has a band sup- 
 ported from the funds ; it is very popular, and they 
 would not like to be without one, 178()-1790. Delay 
 in tlie decision of the question of Government aid would 
 not affect the volunteers in his county, 1791, 17-92. 
 It is sometimes difficult to obtain efficient officers ; few 
 changes take place among those appointed, 1793-1795. 
 They mention the difficulty of ex])ense, Ijut do not ])er- 
 sonally complain, 179f). The adjutants do not receive 
 any extra pay, 1797- Has great difficulty in getting the 
 rifle ranges, 1798. There are no heavy expenses con- 
 nected with the head-quarters, 1800. The adjutants are 
 beyond all value in the volunteer force, 1801, 1802. 
 Volunteers in his county are not men who would join 
 the army or mihtia, 1803. 
 Maberly, Lieut.-Col. Evan : 
 
 Is an officer in the Royal Artillery, and has inspected 
 many artillery volunteer corps on the south coast, 4173, 
 4174. They are in every stage of efficiency; generally 
 they are in a satisfactory state, liut in some instances that 
 is not the case ; there are many corps of which too much 
 cannot be said in praise, 4175-4181, 4205, 420G, 420.'). 
 All the corps in the district have facilities for gun drill 
 and practice, 4182-4192. The difference in the efficiency 
 of different corps is owing to the great difficulties the 
 members have in some cases to contend with, 4195. Tlie 
 proper remedy for defects would vary according to cir- 
 cumstances ; but generally the best security for progress 
 and efficiency is in the a^jpointraent of active and good 
 officers as adjutants of brigades, 419b'^199. The in- 
 spections of last year showed that from a third to over 
 half the artillery volunteers of the district would be of 
 ccmsiderable value as a supplement to the regular 
 troops, 4200-4203, 4208-4212. 
 Macgregor, Captain John : 
 
 Commands a company in the London Scottish Rifle 
 Volunteers, and is musketiy-instructor of that cor])s, 
 2G04. The \'olunteer movement has had a good moral, 
 social, and hygienic effect on those who have taken part 
 in it, 2()05-2G08. The volunteer force is more efficient 
 than could have been expected ; nothing would cause 
 it to decline more than an mmecessary expression ot tlie 
 fear of its doing so, the truth, howe^'er, should be 
 ascertained and met, 2()09-2(Jll. The movement was 
 impelled by two different sets of forces, one is a desire 
 to be connected witli military efficiency, the other regards 
 an amusing social and liealtliful recreation ; the first is 
 permanent, the other intermittent and subject to com- 
 ])etition with other amusements or engagements, 2C12— 
 2()14. The really efficient members only in a corps ought 
 to be estimated in gi\'ing Government assistance, 2()16. 
 Men who give their time should be supplied by Govern- 
 ment witli means of instruction, such as butts, targets, 
 rifle ranges, and instructors, 2()17, 2(il8. Government 
 should supply clothing to those corps only who wish 
 for it ; men who are effective for tv/o years should have 
 2/. or 2/. 10s. for a new uniform ; thej' should bear tlie 
 first expense themselves, 2619-2(121. Would divide the 
 force into three classes, men who are continuidly effective, 
 men who have once been effective, and men who are not 
 yet effective; these three classes should be considered 
 separatel}' ; encouragement should be given to file and 
 volley firing, 2622. 
 McGrigor, Capt. Alexander B. See Bell, Mr., &c. 
 Macleod of Macleod, Lieutenant-Colonel : 
 
 Commands the 1st Middlesex Engineer Volunteer 
 Corps, which consists of 724 members, about three-fourths 
 of whom are mechanics and artizans, 427-431. The 
 corps is efficient in drill, 432 ; and receives special instruc- 
 tion in engineering, 433-436. Tlie financial position of 
 the corps is satisfactory, although its reciuirements are 
 greater than those of ordinary corps, 437-463. It is de- 
 sirable, though not essential, to release members from 
 their subscriptions, and to give a Go\-erninent grant of 
 20s. for every man who attends a certain number of di'ills, 
 4C4-466, 468. A more military character should not be 
 impressed on the force, 467. It is undesirable to increase 
 the number of corps except in very special cases, 470. 
 About 250 mcmliers of the corjis ordinarily attend a 
 battalion parade, 489. About 150 have recei^•ed musketry 
 instruction, 491. The majority of the members would
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT RIUTAIX. 
 
 1:1 
 
 Macleod of Macleou, Lieut.-Colonbi, — continued. 
 renew their uniforms when necessary, 525-528. If fur- 
 ther Government assistance were given to the force, it 
 should he in the form of a capitation f^runt, paid in each 
 ease to the commanding officer, and spent inider certain 
 predetermined heads, at his (hscretion, 52y-5.'iS, 5-lt'-55(). 
 This would have no ])rejudicial effect on tlic eorjjs or its 
 members, 541-517. The (jovcriunent should see that 
 the money was properly- expended, 55.':!, 554. It is not ne- 
 cessiu-y to lessen the number of drills prescrilied by tlie 
 ])resent Volunteer Act to constitute an ctfective, 555-557. 
 It is not desirable that Government should enforce a 
 uniform set of rules, 5();i-570. A uniform system of 
 drill is very desirable, 571. The jjresent mode of a])- 
 pointing officers in the corpswoi'ks well, 5(>1, (i()2, 572-575. 
 It is not advisable that the public money shoulil Ije spent 
 on uniform in any shape, 588. There is a difficulty in 
 obtaining drill instructors, 592-595. The corps gives no 
 extra allowance either to its Serjeant instructors or its 
 adjutant, 596, 597. A stricter system of discipline than 
 exists at present is not desirable, 598-G0(). Tlie Govern- 
 ment grant should not be gi\'en to a man in proportion 
 to the amount of expense he incurs by attending drill, &.C. 
 G01-(!05. 
 
 M.\cMuRDo, Colonel W. M. S. : 
 
 In London it is impossible that the recruiting should 
 assume the form of local corps, 4421. In administrative 
 battalions it might be a good arrangement to put the 
 drill instructors of the different corps directly under the 
 authority of the commanding officer of the battalion ; 
 bat a special provision would be necessary for the 
 purpose, 4422, 4423, 4572, 4573. An administrative 
 battalion is a provisional arrangement, and in case of 
 war, the several corps composing it would probably 
 become so many battalions. The command of each of 
 them would thus become a more important function than 
 it is at present, and the commanding officer of the 
 administrati\'e battalion would probably be the first 
 l)erson a])pointed to one of these commands. Meanwhile, 
 he has the power of an inspecting officer; the Secretary 
 of State could not gi\-e him more ; and wliat he has is 
 sufficient for its present purpose, 442()-44(J5, 4479-4481. 
 There wovild be no difficulty in employing adjntants of 
 \-olunteers as paymasters, and their tra\'elling allowances 
 should, in any case, be increased, 446()— 1468. Many of 
 the small corps are fit to form the nuclei of larger ones, 
 and the larger corps might in these cases be made fit for 
 service in 20 days, 4563, 4473-4476. The establishment 
 of a central school for drill instructors might be advan- 
 tageous ; and if it were adopted, it would not be necessary 
 to increase the pay of the instructors, though their allow- 
 ances might be inci-eased. 4482— 1490. The relations 
 between the artillery ^•olunteers and the district com- 
 manding officers of Royal Artillery spring out of the fact 
 that the stores and guns furnished to the volunteer bat- 
 teries remain in the charge of the Royal Artillery, 4491- 
 4500. The work of the assistant ins])ectors is lessened 
 by the union of corjjs in administrative battalions, but 
 there is no reason against employing officers of the 
 line on the duty of inspecting volunteers, 4501-450!). 
 It is the duty of the assistant inspectors of rille volun- 
 teers, if they have time, to inspect also the artillery 
 volunteers with regard to their general state, 4511. 
 The volunteers generally ha^-e so improved since last 
 year, that a rejjort made of a last year's inspection 
 would not show the present state of the force inspected, 
 4513—4515. It is not advisable to map out London 
 into brigade districts for command, 4516. An effective 
 is a man who attends 18 drills according to the re- 
 gulation, and the inspection of his corps, 4517— I52I. 
 There should be an understanding that every volunteer 
 should go through certain setting up drills, and ])ass a 
 certain examination, after which he should be entitled at 
 once to step into a battalion, and then pass through a 
 smaller number of drills, 4522-4528. An obvious test of 
 efficiency, irrespective of the statutory number of drills, is 
 advisable, and there would be no difficulty in finding 
 and ajiplying one, 4529-4552. A marked improvement 
 has taken ])lace in the efficiency of the officers, 4553, 
 4554. It is not desirable at present to estabhsh any arbi- 
 trary test of the efficiency of officers, 4555-4568. About 
 two-thirds of the rifle arm have gone through a course 
 of rifle instruction, and the proportion is increasing, 
 4569—4571. The annual pecuniary charge now in- 
 curred by Government on account of the \'olunteers is 
 about 1/. a head, exclusive of the arms, 4574—4580. The 
 object of the volunteer ser\'ice is to be prepared at a 
 time of danger, and there would be time before a war 
 actually broke out to render the volunteers efficient for 
 the field, 4581—4585. It is neither advisable nor pos- 
 sible to clothe all the volunteers in one coloured uniform. 
 
 MacMurdo, Colonel W. M. S. — continitr'il. 
 
 4586-4589. There should be a staff uniform for adju- 
 tants, drill instructors, &c., 4592. Tlio force is in a sitis- 
 factory state ol' efficiency with reference to the objects for 
 which it is raised, and estimating its elt'ieiency by what it 
 is ca])able of becoming at very short notice. Of the ritie 
 volunteers, about a tliird reipiire little more to fit them to 
 take their jihice in a line of battle, and tlie proficiency of 
 the rest is, speaking generally, and all things considered, 
 satisfactory. The efficiency of the artillery volunteers is 
 in most cases highly satisfactory', and their importance 
 cannot be over-rated. The engineer arm is of extreme 
 importance, and its jirogrcss quite satisfactory, 4593. 
 
 Page, Captain S. Flo on : 
 
 Is Adjutant of the London Scottish Rifle Volunteers, 
 865. Tlie establishment of a comjiany of rifle volunteers 
 should be increased in large cor|is from 100 to 150 men, 
 and sections of 20 men sliould be allowed, ^i\^, 875-878, 
 894, 895, 953, 954, 1040-1042. The average attendance 
 of the corps is 199 out of 67.3 members, 871-874. A uni- 
 form system of drill should be adopteil for the whole 
 force, 883, 884. This year, 216 members of the corps 
 passed through the course of musketry instruction, and 
 last year rather more than 200 did so, 885-89.'). The 
 inability of members to pay the subscription is one of 
 the difficulties of the corps, 896-904. There should be 
 a Government grant of 20*-. for every effective member, 
 to be ai)plied to military expenses, and the commanding 
 officer should be held responsible for its administration, 
 905-908, 983-98(). The Government Serjeants receive from 
 the corps, 59/. in money, and the value of 45/. in quarters. 
 Their position is not so good as that of militia Serjeants, 
 909-920; although they need to be superior men and 
 are difficult to obtain, 934-941. The allowances given to 
 an adjutant of volunteers are insufficient, and his position 
 is not so good as that of an adjutant of militia, 921-93,'), 
 942-IW4. The adjutants in towns have not enough work, 
 and a considerable number of them might be dispensed 
 with if weak corps were amalgamated, or if one adjutant 
 were appointed to several corps, 946-952, 955-964. It 
 is important that an adjutant should have passed through 
 a course at Hythe, though he need not conduct the 
 musketry instruction of his corps, 965-968. There should 
 be a staff uniform for the adjutants and Government 
 Serjeants, 969-972. If the subscriptions are retained it 
 will be necessary that the Government should paj' some 
 one to carry on the financial business of the corps, 974- 
 981. As an inducement to volunteers to attend at drill, 
 those who do so should be exempted from ser\'ing on 
 juries, and from the payment of some tax of about the 
 same amount as the hair powder tax, 988-1013. The 
 legal definition of an eft'eetive should be altered, so as to 
 diminish the number of required drills in the case of men 
 who had attained to a certain standard, 1014-1016. 
 There should be no examination of officers before they 
 receive their commissions, but their efficiency should be 
 tested at the inspections, and inefficient officers should be 
 attached to regiments of the line, 1017, 1018. The dis- 
 cipline of the force is impro\'ing, but the numbers are 
 diminishing, and will diminish unless aid be granted by 
 Government, 987, 2020-1023. The officers are almost 
 necessarily put to inconvenient expenses, 1024-1031, 
 1035, 1036. The Government should establish a central 
 school of arms, 1037. One set of regulations should be 
 strictly enforced throughout the force, 104.'j, 1044. 
 
 Perkins, Lieutenant-Colonel Edward Moselev : 
 Commands an administrative battalion of rifle vo- 
 lunteers in Durham, consisting of 11 companies, and 
 numbering 770 effectives, 2820-2823. On one occasion 
 mustered 620 men at a battalion drill, but the a^'crage 
 attendance is 200, 2824. Has sufficient authority as 
 commandant of the liattalton, 2826. Has no battalion 
 fund; expenses of battalion drills are defrayed by the 
 officers of the different corps, 2827, 2828. Two of the 
 corps have jiublic funds ; in two others all the expenses 
 fall upon the officers and their friends; another has a 
 ])ublic subscription; and the rest, comjiosed of working 
 men, are supijorted by the proprietor of the works and 
 the officers, 2829. Some of the members provide tlicir 
 own uniforms, but the artizans generally are clothed by 
 public subscription, 2830. Each corps has an armoiiiy 
 and rifle range paid for out of the general funds of the 
 corps, 2831-2833, Anticijiatcs very great difficulty in 
 the renewal of uniforms, 2834. The question oi expense 
 affects the men more than the officers, 2836. Tlie drill 
 Serjeants receive a small pay in addition to what they 
 receive fi'om Government, 2839. Government assistance 
 is of vital consequence to the maintenance and efficiency 
 of the volunteer force, 2840. Uniform and equipment 
 should be provided, an allowance made to meet the 
 expense attending battalion drills, and 150 rounds each 
 
 C 3
 
 T4 
 
 ANALYSIS OF- EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Perkins, Lieut.-Col. Euward Moseley — continued. 
 of blank and ball cartridge allowed to every enrolled 
 member, 2S41, 28-12, 2867. The expense of transport for 
 each battalion drill is 2s. a liead, 284;3, 2844. The whole 
 e.vpense would be about 3/. 12.s'. a man per annum, 2856, 
 8857. Assistance should be given in ftiatei-ials, 2861. 
 ^Yould have no difficulty in getting the men to wear 
 second-hand clothing, 2865. The feeling in the neigh- 
 bourhood is in fa\-our of scarlet as the colour of 
 the uniform, 2867. Thinks if assistance is not given 
 some battalions nill soon become e.xtinct, 2868-2870. A 
 ])rompt decision of this question would do a great deal of 
 good, 2871. The service has now become very popular, 
 and there is no doubt of every member becoming effi- 
 cient. If liberal assistance is afforded, and a uniform 
 colour adopted, great satisfaction will be felt, 2876. If 
 the coast of Durham were menaced by an invading force, 
 he thinks he could bring up the 770 effectives of his bat- 
 talion in an eiEcient state to sujjport the regular force in 
 resisting invasion, especially if they were supplied with 
 equipment, and could oftener meet together for battalion 
 drill. 2877-2881, 2884. Many of the battalions would, 
 in a very short time, be able to take their places with the 
 regular troops and militia, 2882. Others would require 
 more military discipline and training, 2883. Training 
 will not be kept up unless new clothing is found for 
 the volunteers, 2886. In the present state of the force, 
 its efficiency is limited and imperfect, with certain aid 
 from Government it might be rendered much more 
 efficient, but for distant operations still further training 
 and the habit of using camp equipment would be requi- 
 site, 2889-2896. If the different cor])s were properly 
 handled together for a fortnight they would become 
 thoroughly efficient in their drill, 2900, 2901 . His corps 
 is composed principally of ai-tizans, and he finds that vo- 
 lunteering has produced in them a marked improvement 
 physically and socially, 2903-2!H)5. A feeling exists among 
 volunteers.who give then- time and services that thej' should 
 not be called upon to contribute in other ways, 2906, 2907. 
 Field officers should be exempt from ser\'ice on juries, 
 2907, 2908. The course of instruction in musketi-y is 
 inapjjlicable to rural corps from the nature of the different 
 members' employment, 2911-2915. The officers in his 
 battalion give a higher subscription than the men, and 
 make up almost all deficiencies, 2916. 
 
 Pettie, Mr. John : 
 
 Is a Serjeant in the London Scottish Rifle Volunteer 
 Corps, 822, 823. The volunteer service has a good 
 effect on the artizan volunteers, physically, morally, 
 socially, and politicaUy, 828, 829, 851-853, 857, 858, 
 863, 864. It would be more attractive to them if the 
 facilities for shooting were improved, 839-843. Unless 
 some assistance is given, a large number of the artizans 
 now in the corps will leave it, 849, 850. If the artizan 
 element in the force should fail, it will be entirely for 
 financial reasons, 854, 855. Artizan volunteers prefer 
 military men for their officers, 859, 860. 
 
 Radstock, the Lord: 
 
 Commands the WestMiddlesex Rifle Volunteer Corps, 1. 
 Corps consists of 579 members, of whom 150 muster 
 at battalion drill, 3-5, 263. There is no falling off in 
 the actual strength, though there may be in the numbers 
 on j)aper, 8-27. The continued efficiency of the corps 
 depends on the action of Government in the next twelve 
 months, 34, 35. The sources of danger are the direct 
 and indirect expense to which the men are subjected, the 
 deficiency in equipment, and the defects in organization 
 and discipline, 36—42. Small corps should be amalga- 
 mated, 44-52, 115-120, 127-131. There should be one 
 uniform for the whole force, 53-63, 121, 136, 137, dif- 
 ferent from that of the army, 138-144. The uniform 
 of the corps costs 3/., and the accoutrements, 15x., 65-68. 
 The corps is mainly supported by the subscriptions of its 
 members, which is a cause of weakness ; but the sub- 
 scriptions do not cover all expenses, 69-94. The pressure 
 of expense repels good officers, and keeps down the 
 numbers of the force, 95-99. Every corps should have a 
 defined recruiting area, 10.'<-107. There should be one 
 system of rules, 125, 171-179, and of drill, 125, and of 
 organization, 126. Every corps should have a defined 
 recruiting district, 103-107, and every district a certain 
 quota of ^■olunteers, 132. The field equipment of the 
 force is totally inefficient, 145-164. The organization of 
 the force is defective from the absence of a thoroughly 
 military character, and a uniform system of discipline, 
 165-170. Discussions in the corps, whether on its 
 military or its civil aft'aii's, are objectionable ; and there 
 should be no election of officers, but before any officer, 
 commissioned or non-commissioned, is appointed, the 
 commanding officer slicidd ascertain privately the feehng 
 of the members on the subject, 180-21 1. The effiecincy 
 
 Radstock, TirE Lord — continued. 
 
 of the ofliccrs of a corps depends jiractieally on the com- 
 manding officer, 212-221. In consequence of the want 
 of a uniform system of discipline, some corps become lax 
 in order to be popular, and these drag the rest of the 
 force down to their own level, 223-235. The legal 
 definition of an effective might be altered, 237 ; by reduc- 
 ing the required number of annual drills in the case of a 
 man who had come up to a certain standard, 280-288, 
 301-303, 309-312. Brigade and di\isional field days 
 increase the strength at the parades which precede, and 
 diminish it at the parades which foUow them, 266-268. 
 It is more important to have in the force a nucleus of 
 well trained soldiers, than to accustom a large number of 
 men to the use of arms without making them absolutely 
 efHcient, 289, 300, 304-308. A fair amount of musketry 
 instruction is necessary in order to make a man really 
 effective, 313-318. There should be a Government grant 
 of 20s. for every man present on parade on the day of 
 inspection, 328-333 ; and an additional Government grant 
 of 10s., for every such man who has his equipment, knap- 
 sack, and great coat, 335. There should be a national holi- 
 day on which the inspections shoidd take place, 334, 335, 
 348, 349. Brigade districts should be formed, and united 
 under an officer of di\asion, and the number of men present 
 at the last inspection should be the test referred to in ar- 
 ranging the formation of new corps in the districts, and 
 the increase of existing ones, 335-345. A company should 
 not lose its Government Serjeant in consequence of its 
 sinking to a sub-division, 346, 347. The best way of 
 giving Government aid to the force is by a capitation 
 grant, to be spent in each case at the discretion of the 
 commanding ofiicer under certain rciiulations, and subject 
 to proper account, 352-360, 409-412. A Government 
 grant would enable corps to dispense with pubUc sub- 
 scriptions, which are a source of weakness, and are 
 generally falling off, 361-364, 42C. A capitation grant 
 need not alter the character of the force, 365-372. The 
 re\'ival of the militia ballot would have a good effect on 
 the volunteer force, 373, 374. The pay of the Govern- 
 ment Serjeants is not sufficient, 376-381. The pay of 
 adjutants is sufficient, 382-386. In each brigade district 
 there should be a brigade armourer, and an efficient 
 brigade staff of unpaid officers, 387-399. The proposed 
 divisional brigade system should supersede the present 
 system of inspection, 400. It woidd not be prudent to 
 entrust the management of the financial affairs of a corps 
 to the Government Serjeants, 406-408. If indirect assist- 
 ance were given by Government, it should be, in the case 
 of his corps, for drill grounds, head-quarters, rifle ranges, 
 and care of arms, 414—419. 
 
 Ranelagh, the Viscount : 
 
 Commands the South Middlesex Rifle Volunteer 
 Corps of 16 companies, and about 1,300 effectives, 
 1252, 1255. Is provided with rifle grounds, sheds, and 
 everything necessary, the cost of which was defrayed out 
 of the donations and annual subscriptions, 1256, 1257. 
 The annual subscription is \l. Is. each member, which 
 would cover the expenses of the corps if it was out 
 of debt, 1258, 1259. The members [jrovide their own 
 uniforms ; has no reason for saying they will not renew 
 them, 1261-1263. Could not get a really efficient 
 instructor for the Government allowance, 1264. Has 
 battalion drill every Saturday and in winter every 
 Thursday also, but company di-ills are better attended, 
 1266. Brigade and divisional meetings are essential 
 to the maintenance and efficiency of the corps, 1267. 
 Every man passes through company drills before taking 
 part in battalion di'ills, 1268. Men who are not able 
 to supply themselves with uniforms should not be 
 admitted in the volunteer force ; their place is in the 
 line or militia, 1269-1273. A large volunteer force 
 of men of a respectable class could be secured and their 
 numbers and efficiency increased by organizing a system 
 of militia under which 500,000 men could he called 
 out, and exempting those who were effective volunteers, 
 1274-1276. A reduction of the number of corps formed 
 in London would be advantageous, 1277, 1278. The 
 volunteer force should be treated as part of a general 
 system of organizing the whole country for defensive 
 purposes ; the militia being composed of those who 
 cannot afford to pay for their arms, accoutrements, &c., 
 and the volunteer force receiving only those who can ; the 
 latter should have a distinct organization and be com- 
 manded and officered on a system of its own, 1280, 1281. 
 The force can be permanently maintained in its present 
 position, 1282. In each county or district there should 
 be an unpaid volunteer staff' under the lord lieutenant 
 composed of retired military men, 1283-1297, 1304, 
 1313, 1325. Competent men in all counties would 
 be found willing to serve on the staff' without re- 
 luuneiation ; rank and position could be given them.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GRtl^T HRITAIN. 
 
 15 
 
 Ranelagh, the Viscount — continued. 
 
 1299-1301. The staff duty would not be very onerous 
 except on occasions of county reviews and field days, 
 1302, 1303. Each county should have an ctat-niajor, 
 a regular organized system, and its (ra'u means of trans- 
 port and commissariat, 130,^, 1,3IK). Tlie senior volunteer 
 officers could take command in a county where there 
 were only ,3,000 men ; in counties where there were from 
 10,000 to 18,000 men there could he a divisioinil or 
 brigade staff, 1307-1310. The volunteers should ha\'e 
 every facility to learn their work, the senior volunteer 
 colonel having the command at field-days, &c., 1311, 
 1312. The volunteer force should be always kept 
 separate from the regular army, and commanded only by 
 volunteer officers. An inefficient colonel \v(ndd be ex- 
 ])elled by the force of public o])inion, and by mutual ciiti- 
 cism the volunteers would j)erfect themselves, 1313-1335 
 The volunteer force generally requires further aid from 
 Go\-ernment, 133(). Head-quarters, armouries, and drill- 
 grounds, should be provided by Governnu'ut, 133/. The 
 gratuitous issue of clothing by Government would 
 destroy the independence of the movement, 13-1-1. Corps 
 which s]5end large sums on bands have no right to ask 
 for further aid, 134.5, 13-1(). The Government pay to 
 drill instructors is not sufficient, 1347-1352. The work 
 of his adjutant is hard for the pay, 1353, 1354. The 
 men are allowed to take their arms home, 1355. Last 
 year 500 of the men passed though the first jjeriod of 
 musketry instruction. 1356, 1357. No expenses are paid 
 by the officers ; in consequence, military men are ob- 
 tained who would not otherwise join, ]358-13()0. As- 
 sistance towards providing railway expenses at battalion 
 drills and field-days would be a great boon. An officer 
 should retain his rank after 10 years service. Exemption 
 from serving on juries would be a boon to the privates. 
 The posts of adjutants, and drill and musketry instnie- 
 tors should be thrown open to the volunteer force, 1 361, 
 1362. 
 
 Russell, Captain Charles Whitworth : 
 
 Is adjutant of the 2nd Administrative Brigade of 
 Devonshire Artillery Volunteers, 4359, 4360. Volunteers 
 should have a knowledge of every gun and carriage they 
 are likely to be called upon, in case of actual service, to 
 work, 4361. They shoiild be furnished with the a|ipliances 
 for repository drill, 4372, 4375. Thinks the volunteers 
 would be perfectly fit to man the fortifications, in the 
 event of a war, 4374. 
 
 Stirling, Lieut.-Col. William. See Bell, Mr., &c. 
 
 Templer, Captain John Charles : 
 
 Commands the 18th Middlesex Rifle Volunteer Corps, 
 1176. The corps is increasing, and its funds are in a 
 satisfactory position, 1177-1188, 1205. There are only 
 three artizans among its members, 1189, 12.38. Town 
 corps can be kept up without assistance, but country 
 corjis cannot, 1192. A volunteer is entitled to a com- 
 plete indemnity for all exjienses, and to gi-\'e him this 
 there should be a Government grant of 42s. a head, 
 1193-1196, 1215-1219. The essential distinction be- 
 tween the volunteer force and other forces is that the 
 one is not paid and the others are, 1220-1223. When a 
 volunteer has attained a certain efficiency, the number 
 of drills now required to keep him on the list of effectives 
 should be diminished, 1224-1236. The corps has at 
 present no desire for assistance, 1237. If Government 
 clothed the men, they would be entitled to require them 
 to appear at the annual inspections, 1239-1241. A man 
 should not be considered an effective unless he has some 
 knowdedge of rifle shooting, 1242-1249. It is desirable 
 that further facilities should be given to volunteers for 
 the acquisition of rifle ranges 1250, 1251. 
 
 Warrender, Major George : 
 
 Served formerly in the Line and in the Guards. Com- 
 mands an administrative battalion of Haddmgton Rifle 
 Volunteers of five companies and one subdivision, 1608- 
 1610. Each company manages its own finances, and has 
 its own organization and rules, 1612, 161(). Has no 
 battalion fund, meets the casual battalion expenses him- 
 self, 1614. The Government allowance for jjostage, 
 stationei'y, &c., is adequate, 1615. There is an insjiection 
 of arms every month in each company, 1617. Each com- 
 pany has an armonrj' which costs from 2/. to St. a year, 
 1618-1623. In No. 1 company the arms are taken home 
 by the members, in the other companies they are kept 
 in the armouries and are kept in better order, 1619. 
 When members do not produce their rifles for inspec- 
 tion for two months, permission to take them home is 
 withdrawn, 1621. The captain is held responsible for 
 the anus being kept in proper order, 1622. The Serjeant 
 
 Warrender, Major George — continued. 
 instructor generally cleans the arms ke])t in the armoury, 
 for which he receives \0l. a year and materials, 1624-1626. 
 (Jovernment Serjeants are generally well satisfied, 1627. 
 The adjutant receives no extra allowance. 1615-1628. 'Vht 
 best class of noncommissioneil officers are the best men 
 for adjutants of administrative battalions, 1629, 16.32. 
 The adjutant has no authority over the captains and his 
 visits are not considered as inspections, 16.iO, 1631,. 
 There is great difliculty in getting the difl'erent corps 
 together for battalion drill, 1633, 1634. The travelling 
 expenses are met by the ca])tains and by small subscrip- 
 tions from the men, 16.35-16.38. There are 408 rifle 
 volunteers in the county of Haddington, 1639. At the 
 commencement a county fuiul was raised of about 800/., 
 and a further sum of 2110/., which has been expended in 
 pro\iding targets, drill instruction, and equijjment, ex- 
 clusive of clothing. Funds for providing clothing to 
 those who did not provide their own, were ])roeured from 
 friends in the neighbmirhood, 1640-1645. The result of 
 an inquiry held in the eoimty showed that out of 550 
 Volunteers, only 100 were self-sup])ortiug, and that 500/. 
 a year would be necessary to meet the incidental ex])enses 
 for the force, exclusive of clothing, 1646-1649, 16(i6- 
 1672. Commands a company in Berwickshire ; the condi- 
 tion of the force in that county is the same as that in Had- 
 dington, 1650. No. 1 company is self-supjiorting, and 
 composed of merchants and clerks, but there is some 
 difliculty in getting the subscriptions, 1651-1653. His 
 battalion has no means of self-support in itself, and will 
 fall away unless assistance of some kind is given, 1654, 
 1655. The different companies in Berwickshire are nearly 
 in the same condition, 16.t6. A voluntary assessment of 
 two-twelfths of a penny on the rental was made in that 
 county for one year, ami 10,9. (irf. was allowed for each 
 effective volunteer, 1657-1661. In Haddington it was jiro- 
 ])osed, but objected to, 1662, 1663. The assistance given 
 to his company will not be continued, 1665. Last year 
 the battalion met together three times ; the five companies 
 are wdthin a radius of 5J miles from head-quarters, 1673- 
 1677- Each company has a drill Serjeant, 1679. One 
 instructor with a higher rate of pay sliould be api)ointed 
 to two or more companies, 1680, 1681, 1689. lt;93, 1694. 
 The outlying couqjanies are almost entirely agricul- 
 tural, or else clerks and mechanics, 1 682. The others are 
 of all classes, but princi])ally of mechanics and artizans, 
 who are often apprentices, with only a bare subsistence, 
 1683. The battahon he comiuands is composed of very 
 good material, and the men would not enter the army 
 nor generally the militia, 1684, 1685. In his company 
 18 or 20 half clothed themselves, 18 wholly, and the re- 
 mainder were clothed entirely by their employers, and 
 from the funds raised for the jmrpose, 168(). Tlie latter 
 attend drdl better, 1687. Drill Serjeants for subdivisions 
 would be a great boon, but a great tax upon Government, 
 1689, 1690. A soldier on leave of absence drills the 
 subdivision, which is in as good order as the companies, 
 169], 1692. The general impression in his district is, 
 that the Volunteers should not be required to give more 
 than their service, and that the pecuniary burden 
 should be borne by Go\'ernment, I695-l()!)9. Aid 
 should be given by a money grant, 1700-1702. 2.5s. 
 a head, according to the annual return which should be 
 furnished in December, would be barely sufficient to 
 maintain the efficiency of the volunteer force ; about 
 one-fourth more would be required to co^-er all expenses, 
 except for attending battalion drills, 170.3-1709, 1714- 
 1716, 2152. Clothing provided gratis to members might 
 belong to the corps until they had served a certain time, 
 and in cases of retirement might be issued to others, 1711- 
 1713. The corps would be more efficient with Government 
 accoutrements, 1717- Recruiting for the rifle volunteer 
 corps does not interfere with recruiting for the ^•olunteer 
 artillery in the neighbourhood, 1718. An Ciirly decision 
 is most desirable on the question of Government aid, 
 1719, 1720. In Haddington six or eight volunteers in 
 one corps ha\'e joined the militia. If Go\-ernment wished 
 to increase the militia at any time, volunteer officers 
 could render great assistance, 2151. Great regret would 
 be felt if the corps had to be dissolved for want of money, 
 as volunteering has been very beneficial to tlie health 
 and habits of the men. Volunteers who are assisted are 
 more easily dealt with, and attend drill better than those 
 who provide everything theinselves. • Two vidunlecr corps 
 in one place should lie ])laced under one commanding 
 officer; adjutants should receive better ])ay, 2152. The 
 musketry instruction in his battalion is under the super- 
 intendence of the adjut.ant, 2154, 2155. t'ompanies re- 
 ceiving assistance shoidii first consent to be battalionized. 
 30 or 40 only out of 500 or 600 men are likely to re-clothe 
 themselves, 2156.
 
 16 
 
 ALPHABETICAL LLST OF WITNESSES. 
 
 AcLAND, Lieut.-CoL 
 
 Bell, Mr. Sheriff 
 
 Beresfokd, Major 
 
 Bingham, Colonel 
 
 Blackburne, Captain - 
 
 Bourne, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 BoDsriELD, Major 
 
 Bower, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 Boys, Captain, E.N. 
 
 Briggs, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 Brooks, Major - - - 
 
 Buckley, Lieut.-Gcn. - 
 
 CAMPio>f, Captain 
 
 Crawford, Lieut.-Col. - 
 
 Darby', Captain 
 
 De Grey and Eiton, the Earl 
 
 Denys, Major Sir George, Bart. 
 
 Dillwy-n, Major, M.P. - 
 
 Dreghorn, Lieut.-Col. - 
 
 Edwards, Lieut. 
 
 Enfield, the Viscount - 
 
 EwENS, Captain 
 
 Grosvenor, the Earl 
 
 Harcourt, Major 
 
 Harjian, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 Hudson, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 164 
 183 
 
 37 
 163 
 113 
 135 
 
 99 
 178 
 138 
 
 86 
 142 
 119 
 105 
 183 
 126 
 199 
 188 
 ISO 
 
 72 
 152 
 
 42 
 
 70 
 
 95 
 14-0 
 170 
 161 
 
 Hughes, Major - - - 
 
 HuMBERSTON, Captain, M.P. 
 Innes, Captain - - - 
 
 Jones, Lieut.-Col. 
 Knight, Lieut.-Col., M.P. 
 Laird, John, P>sq., M.P. 
 Laye, Captain - - - 
 
 LiNTOTT, Mr. - - . 
 
 LOCKHART, Mr. 
 
 LuARD, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 Lyttelton, the Lord 
 
 Maberley, Lieut.-Col. - 
 
 Macgregor, Captain 
 
 McGrigor, Captain 
 
 Macleod of Macleod, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 MacMurdo, Colonel 
 
 Page, Captain - - - 
 
 Perkins, Lieut.-Col. 
 
 Pettie, Mr. - - . 
 
 Radstock, the Lord 
 
 Eanelagh, the Viscount 
 
 Russell, Captain 
 
 Stirling, Lieut.-Col. - 
 
 Templer, Captain 
 
 Warrendek, Major 
 
 - 00 
 
 - 175 
 
 - 131 
 
 - 90 
 
 - 146 
 
 - 107 
 
 - 141 
 
 - 97 
 
 - 183 
 
 - 158 
 
 - 82 
 
 - 176 
 
 - Ill 
 
 - 183 
 
 - 30 
 
 - 190 
 
 - 47 
 
 - 121 
 
 - 45 
 
 - 17 
 
 - 64 
 
 - 187 
 
 - 183 
 
 - 60 
 76,96
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 TAKEN BEFORE 
 
 THE COMMISSIONERS 
 
 APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO 
 
 THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN 
 
 GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 Tuesday, 27th May 1862. 
 
 PRESENT 
 
 Viscount EvEliSLEY. 
 
 Viscount Hakdinge. 
 Lord Elciio. 
 Lord Overstone. 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campijei.l. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel MacMukdo. 
 Major Hakcourt, 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chair, 
 Lord Radstock examined. 
 
 Lord Radslock. 
 
 1. (Chairmnii.) You are the colonel oiT the West 
 Middlesex Rifle Volunteer Corps? — -Yes. 
 
 2. The corps consists of eight companies, does it 
 not ? — Yes. 
 
 3. And according to the paper before us of 609 
 members ? — The last return gives 579. 
 
 4. Do you muster at battalion drill as many as 609 
 usually ? — Not half that number, aud taking into 
 account wet days not much more than a quarter. 
 
 5. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) About 150? — I think 
 that is about the average. 
 
 6. What is the establishment of your corps ? — 800. 
 
 7. That is the maximum ? — -Yes. 
 
 8. Do you find any decline in the number of your 
 corps ? — I think on paper there is, but not in the 
 actual strength, and that arises from its being diffi- 
 cult to find out what men have left. You imagine 
 that a man has left you who has never resigned, and 
 after a time you trace him out ; j'ou find that he has 
 gone to another part of the country, without sending 
 in his I'esignation : I think that there will be a 
 very great falling ofi'. There is not an actual falling 
 off ; but very likely on paper I should come down to 
 500, if I could get in all the resignations. 
 
 9. {Col. 3Iac3Iurdo.) I suppose you can tell by 
 finding that the subscriptions ftill off ? — Yes. 
 
 10. {Mfijor-GcH. El/re.) They are not struck off 
 after being absent for a certain time ; they are still 
 retained on paper?— Sometimes; we should not strike 
 a man off for six months; he may go into the country 
 and then come back again. Some of them go to 
 China and some to India. 
 
 11. (Chairman.) Have you any rules that require 
 notice to be given to the captain of the company 
 when a member leaves the corps ? — Yes ; but when 
 they are gone you cannot carry the rule into effect. 
 
 12. {Sir A. Campbell.) When a man has been 
 absent for five or six months do you inquire into the 
 cause of his absence, and ascertain the reason ? — It 
 is very difficult to do that ; a captain may send to a 
 man's address, and does do so, and he is told that the 
 man has left his lodgings, but said he was coming 
 back. 
 
 13. {Col. Mac3Iurdo.) His arms in that case would 
 be returned ? — Yes. 
 
 14. The whole of your arms arc in the possession 27 May 1862. 
 of the individual members ? — Yes. 
 
 15. {Blajor-Grii. Ei/rc.) A man may have gone t> 
 the Cape, taking his rifle with him ? — I do not think 
 that would take place. 
 
 16. {Lord Ek'ho.) Have you any men on your 
 books this year who have neither appeared nor paid 
 the subscriptions of last year ? — That is a difficult 
 matter, as there are some men who appear and pay 
 no subscription, and some who pay their subscription 
 but do not appear. If a man apjiears we do not 
 strike him oft", or if he pays his subscription. 
 
 17. Do you keep your men on if they appear, 
 although they do not pay their subscriptions to the 
 end of the year when you are making up the .ac- 
 counts, or is there any rule about the paj'ments of 
 the subscriptions that a man is struck oft' at a certain 
 2)eriod after the subscription becomes due ? — It 
 varies very much in different cases ; for instance, 
 with regard to some men, you may know that they 
 are perfectly well able to pay their subscriptions, but 
 they are away. 
 
 18. {Chairma)).) How are these subscriptions 
 paid ? Do the officers and men subscribe in the same 
 proportion, or is there a different rate for each ? — 
 They all subscribe the same. 
 
 19. What is the annual subscription ? — A guinea. 
 
 20. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) Is that in the rules of 
 the corps, that they must pay a guinea ? — Yes. 
 
 21. A man is not considered an eft'ective member 
 unless he does pay it? — " Effective " relates more to the 
 number of drills ; there is no reason why he should 
 not be an effective, but it is i-ather too difficult to tell 
 about the subscriptions, as they are paid in advance. 
 A man pays a guinea when he joins, and that 
 naturally would become duo at the end of twelve 
 months afterwards ; but in reality you must give him 
 twelve months' law ; it is not legally due until the 
 end of the second year. 
 
 22. That depends upon your rules ? — Yes ; but 
 there is no rule that the guinea sliould bo paid in 
 advance. 
 
 23. {Major Harcourt.) What do the arrears of 
 subscriptions amount to ; is the sum large ? — No, I 
 should not think so ; I think there are about 500 
 
 D
 
 18 
 
 MINUTES OF KTIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lord Ruihlock. 
 27 May 18S2. 
 
 men whose subscriptions you can calculate may come 
 in within three or four months. 
 
 24. {Col. MacMurdo.) Have you any reason to 
 apprehend a very serious falling off in your corps ? — 
 That enters into quite a diflerent question. 
 
 25. Your return shows on the 1st of April .592 
 men, and if you think that oOO will pay their sub- 
 scriptions within three months, that would show a 
 falling off of only 92 ? — Yes ; I do not think that 
 the falling off is to be looked at quite in a money 
 point of view only. My corps is raised principally 
 from a class who can afl'ord to pay the subscriptions ; 
 and when these men get tired of it, which, of course, 
 is quite possible, then you want to recruit ; and it is 
 a question as to what is the extent of the class from 
 which you recruit, whether it can furnish you so 
 many men willing to pay the guinea. 
 
 26. I believe you liad 29 recruits in the last quarter 
 as against 27 resignations? — That may be so ; there 
 is no doubt that the practical available strength of 
 the corps is where it was. 
 
 27. Have you any reason to apprehend that they 
 will fill! away ? — Then comes a different question ; it 
 remains unaltered at present. 
 
 28. ( CJiairman.) Why do you think they will fall 
 away ? — I think that there are three or four main 
 questions whicli relate to the force in general, which, 
 I think, would apply to all corps, and which I con- 
 ceive are of the greatest importance in viewing this 
 question ariglit. 
 
 29. (Lord Overstone.) You have stated that you 
 are colonel of the West Middlesex Rifle Volunteer 
 Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 30. Have you held that position from the first 
 formation of the corps ?■ — No. 
 
 31. When did you commence ? — 1 think about two 
 years ago. 
 
 32. Were you before that connected with the 
 corps :' — Yes, I was captain of a company. 
 
 33. You have been connected with the corps, and 
 you have had the means of observing its progress 
 from its commencement ? — Quite so ; I was the first 
 man that went out to drill. 
 
 34. Bearing in mind all your past observation of 
 the progress of the corps, and considering its present 
 condition, do you entertain any serious apprehensions 
 that the efficiency of that corps is now in danger ? — 
 It depends very much upon the action of the Govern- 
 ment the next twelve months. 
 
 35. Are the Commissioners to understand from that 
 answer that if the Government continue the course 
 which they at present have pursued, you do appre- 
 hend immediate danger to the efficiency of the corps ? 
 — Undoubtedly. 
 
 36. Will you have the kindness to state what are 
 the circumstances which have led you to that conclu- 
 sion ? — I have jotted down one or two jioints as to 
 the general condition of the force, and as illustrative 
 of my own experience. 
 
 37. Will you be good enough to take those points 
 seriatim, stating first what is the ground and nature 
 of the apprehension that you entertain, and then 
 illustrate it by any experience that you have of your 
 own corps ? — I will begin by stating what I conceive 
 to be the weak points of the force ; of course one of 
 the main difficulties of the force is the cost to indivi- 
 dual membei's. that is, not only the subscription, but 
 the cost of the uniform ; I apprehend that that cannot 
 be put at less than from 21. to 3Z. a man for effective 
 men ; the total cost to a man belonging to the 
 volunteer corps is from '21. to 3Z. per annum. 
 
 38. {Lieut.-Col. Bnrttclot.) Merely referring to 
 Loudon ? — Yes. 
 
 39. {Major Harcourt.) Does that include accoutre- 
 ments ? — Yes. Then of course the loss of time is a 
 very serious thing. The men are all drawn from the 
 money-making classes, and every hour that is taken 
 from them is so much out of their pockets. 
 
 40. {Lord Overstone.) Are the Commissioners to 
 understand that you think that the sources of danger 
 to llie efficiency of the corps arise from the expense 
 
 to which the men are necessarily subjected, and also 
 the indirect charge upon them by the loss of valuable 
 time ? — Yes ; that is one of the dangers. 
 
 41. Is there any other general cause that you would 
 first allude to before you examine the causes in detail? 
 — Yes ; there are other defects. 
 
 42. If there are other main causes dangerous to the 
 efficiency of the force, will you enumerate them before 
 you begin to examine each in detail ?— Yes. There 
 is a deficiency in tlie equipment, both in the uniform 
 and in the field equipment. The uniform and much 
 of the field equipment are defective. The organiza- 
 tion is defective and the discipline is defective. Those 
 are the four heads under which I propose to review 
 the defects of the force. 
 
 43. Having stated the various considerations which 
 led you to apprehend the diminished efficiency in the 
 corps, unless some palliative, is applied, are you pre- 
 pared to state to the Committee any palliatives which 
 have suggested themselves to you as likely to prove 
 efficient ? — I am. 
 
 44. Be kind enough testate them ?— I would allude 
 to the great disproportion of the statt'. There are too 
 many battalions formed. Each battalion or each corps 
 has a little organization of its own to collect subscrip- 
 tions. It has its band and its headquarters, so that 
 five corps of 200 men may have five organizations, 
 each one of which would do for a coi-ps of 1,000 men 
 if they were all consolidated. 
 
 45. In \vhat way does that apply to your particular 
 corps ? — The principle is this. In my neighbour- 
 hood there are perhaps tliree or four corps having 
 separate organizations, the whole of which, if they 
 were consolidated, could all work together at the 
 same expense and machinery at which one is working. 
 
 46. {Chairman.^ You say that one of the great 
 objections is that there are so many battalions, all of 
 which ought to be included in one, so that you should 
 have only the, expense of one staff and headquarters 
 for one corps, and I suppose a band for one corps ? — 
 Quite so. In general, I think, the battalions are too 
 weak, and therefore the expenses of organization are 
 unnecessarily increased. 
 
 47. Will you be kind enough to proceed with the 
 question of cost, as that was the first point you men- 
 tioned ? — Owing to there not being one uniform it is 
 much more expensive for one regiment to get it than 
 if tliere were only one for the whole force, which 
 could be contracted for at a much smaller price than 
 when each corps has its own uniform made by a 
 separate manujacturer, supplied by a separate con- 
 tractor, and Avith separate facings. 
 
 48. Is there any other expense that you can men- 
 tion ?-^There are the expenses at headquarters 
 coming under the general expenses of the corps, 
 headquarters, shooting grounds, and some man to 
 look after your financial business, a secretary, or 
 whatever he may be called. These are general 
 expenses, which of course are well known to the 
 Commi^sion, but that is one main element of expense. 
 
 49. {Lord Oi'crslone.) That is one which you 
 think is capable of being better arranged ? — Yes ; 
 and by a diminution of the battalions I think the 
 expense would be diminished. 
 
 50. ( Chairman.) The answers you have now given 
 could only have reference to populous districts where 
 many battalions are found within reach of each 
 other ? — Still I apprehend that in the less populous 
 districts there is an amount of local machinery which 
 might bo reduced, and transferred to some central 
 machinery, which could be carried on at less cost. 
 
 51. There is one item of expense which you have 
 alluded to, as to the cost of the band ; do you think 
 that the battalions would be as well satisfied to march 
 to the ground without their band. Has not that a 
 good deal to do with keeping up the spirit of the 
 men ? — Undoubtedly ; it is a very important thing. 
 
 52. {Col. 3Iac31urdo.) You would have one band 
 instead of five ? — Yes ; I think so ; and if the ad- 
 ministrative battalions were more consolidated that 
 expense would be reduced ; there might be portions
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 10 
 
 of the banrl distributed, they would not each want a 
 whole baud. 
 
 53. {Lord Elcho.) You havo stated that the cost 
 of the uniforni was 21. or 3/. per anniun. I believe 
 that your corps chiefly wear tweed, aud not cloth ? — 
 I meant to say the total expense, not tlio expense of 
 the uniform, but including the subscriptions and 
 other incidental expenses. 
 
 o4. What do you think the uniform costs ? — The 
 uniform and accoutrements cost 3/. I6s. 
 
 oo. How long, in your opinion, sliould they last? — 
 Of course some men who attend very frequently 
 would want a supply every year almost; some men 
 use them almost eveiy day in tlie year, and some men 
 shoot in their uniform every day in the year, but I 
 should think on the average two years. 
 
 •56. (Co/. 3IarMiirdo.) Do you supply any nnifurm 
 out of the funds of the corps ? — No ; except to the 
 paid marker. 
 
 57. (3I(ijor JJdrcoiirt.) Have your men any undress 
 for shooting ? — No. 
 
 58. ( Sir A. Cainphi'll.) Do you oblige them to shoot 
 in uniform ? — Not for private practice. 
 
 59. {Lord Ilnrdiiige.) You have stated that you 
 think it desirable that there should be one uniform 
 colour for all corps ? — Yes. 
 
 60. What colour would you propose 'i — Grey. 
 
 61. The Government grey ? — No ; it is too light. 
 
 62. Do you think that the advantage which the 
 corps now possess of obtaining Government cloth at 
 a certain per centage cheaper than that which is 
 supposed to be procured by contract is a material 
 advantage with regard to diminishing the expense to 
 the corps ?— Not unless the corps are compelled to 
 adopt it ; the corps would not change their colour 
 unless there was a general understanding that they 
 were all to take to the same ; then there would be a 
 saving. 
 
 63. Taking a corps clothed in rifle green or 
 Government grey, do you think that that is any 
 material assistance to the volunteer corps ?— I cannot 
 answer, as that depends upon the wear of the cloth. 
 I consider that my tweed is a better wearing one than 
 the Government tweed ; it costs more, but I believe 
 it is cheaper in the end, as it will last longer. 
 
 64. {Sir A. Campbell.) Have you seen the patterns 
 that were sent out lately ? — Yes. 
 
 65. {Lord Hardinge.) What is the cost of your 
 uniform, deducting the equipments from it ? — As 
 nearly as possible 3/. 
 
 66. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) You would deduct 15*. 
 for the accoutrements V — Yes. 
 
 67. {Lord Hardinge.) That is deducting the ex- 
 pense of the equipments ? — Yes ; the accoutrements 
 are 15*. 
 
 68. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelof.) In the 3/. for the 
 uniform do you include leggings ? — I am really not 
 prejiared to state. 
 
 69. {Col. MacBIardo.) How did your balance stand 
 in your last annual statement ; was there a deficiency 
 or a surplus ? — A surplus in the fund, but the sur- 
 plus is not altogether to be relied upon, because suppose 
 there is a little sinking in the foundations of a butt 
 there will be the expense of 300/. or 400/-, which 
 perhaps eats up all the balance. 
 
 70. Are there not many arrears in your subscrip- 
 tions, or do they come in regularly ? — I believe that 
 I have 500 men who pay. 
 
 71. {Lord Elcho.) Who have paid this year ? — 
 Yes ; in the current year. 
 
 72. {Col. MacMurdo.) Do you depend upon your- 
 selves, or rely upon the outside subscriptions of 
 honorary members and others ? — I think we depend 
 upon both. 
 
 73. What do the honorary members pay ? — Two 
 guineas. 
 
 74. {Lord Elcho.) Have you 50 honorary members 
 who pay two guineas each ? — I cannot answer that 
 question with certainty. .1 should think I have ; but 
 
 -.1 could not say that I should have them next year. 
 U. 75. {Col. MacMurdo.) Your main source of main- 
 
 tenance is your own subscriptions ? — Yes 
 thing I can rely upon. 
 
 76. {Lord Elcho.) Have you had recourse Id any 
 prosecutions for subscriptions ? — No. 
 
 77. {Chairman.) If those sul)Scriptions do not fall 
 off", are they quite sufficient to maintain tiie corps in 
 its present state of efhcieney? — 1 cannot help thinking 
 that the subscriptions are one main cause of the weak- 
 ness. Tlieie are a great number of my men who pay 
 a guinea, but it is a stretcli for them to i)ay it ; they 
 are clerks with very limited incomes, and they have 
 got families ; and it is a great ])inch for them to pay 
 a guinea. The guinea just turns the point. They 
 may be willing volunteers, but having tln^ guinea to 
 pay, tlu' whole of the domestic influence is brought to 
 bear to induce them to leave. 
 
 78. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do yuu lind tinit the resig- 
 nations take place mostly at the timev/hen the annual 
 subscriptions become due ? — The subscriptions are 
 ]mid at the time the men enter, not on a particular 
 day in the year ; it is as they enter. 
 
 79. {Lord Hardinge.) Is the subscription of one 
 guinea paid according to one of your rules ? — Yes. 
 
 80. Those rules have been approved by the War 
 Office and by the Lord Lieutenant ? — Ye.s. 
 
 81. You could not alter the amount of the subscrip- 
 tion without first submitting the matter to the Lord 
 Lieutenant and to the War Oflice ? — Su])posing tiiat 
 I did not choose to obey the law, it would be very 
 difficult to say what tribunal would call me to account. 
 
 82. {Ueut-Col. Barttelot.) If you altered the sub- 
 scription to iOs. yon could not recover a fartliing of it 
 without the sanction of the War Office ? For instance, 
 if you reduced it to half a guinea without authority, 
 you could not recover a halfpenny from any man ? — 
 That is a legal question which I cannot answer. 
 
 83. {Lord Elcho.) Does the subscription of a 
 guinea cover all the expenses that tall upon the men ; 
 for example, does it cover the expense of their con- 
 veyance to their butts, or do you allow them anything 
 for that ; or does it pay for attending tiie brigade 
 drills ?-No. 
 
 84. Will you give a general idea of what tlie 
 expenses are that are covered by the subscription ? — 
 The subscription is a guinea, and, taking the unitbrm 
 to last two years, I should put it at 30«., but then 
 there is a saving in tlie man's ordinary clothing, 
 which I estimate at \0s., but the cost of his uniform 
 is 1/. a year; there are incidental expenses, such as 
 attending brigade field days, and going down to fire 
 at the shooting ground, which I put at 10*. a year 
 putting them altogether. 
 
 85. {LJeut.- Col. Barttelot.) '1 hat would be 21. 1 1*. ? 
 — It is impossibleto estimate it to a nicety; it might 
 be 51. or 6/. lor some men, and with others not so 
 many shillings. 
 
 86. (Lord Hardinge.) When your regiment goes 
 to Brighton for a divisional field day, do tlie men 
 pay for their own tickets generally ? — Yes. 
 
 87. With regard to tlie other expenses to whicli 
 you have alluded, does any expense fall upon the 
 officers for conveyance and so on ? — My principle is 
 not to impose any additional expense upon the 
 officers. My object is to get the best officers I can 
 get; those who have the most military capacity, and 
 many of them are men of not superabundant means, 
 and therefore I take every precaution that the officers, 
 should not incur any extra expense beyond what is 
 absolutely necessary. 
 
 88. {Chairman.) Suppose your corps were ordered 
 for a brigade field day to Brighton, you say that you 
 as much as possible prevent expense falling upon the 
 officers ? — Yes. 
 
 89. How are the expenses defrayed lieyond wliat 
 arc actually paid by the men ? — They !ye all paid by 
 the men. 
 
 90. All out of the fund ? — For instance, the con- 
 veyance of tlie band, that of course would come out 
 of the funds. 
 
 91. {Lord Hardinge.) The men, generally speaking, 
 I believe, provide their own refreshments 'i — Yes. 
 
 D 2 
 
 the only Lurd lludstocU. 
 27 May 1802.
 
 20 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lord Radstock. 92. {Lord Elcho.) Is tlie subscription to the band 
 
 compulsory ? — No ; I try to Jo away with that alto- 
 
 27 May 18G2. gether ; as far as possible I try to save any extra 
 expense beyond the guinea. 
 
 93. How then do you support tlie band ? — Partly 
 from external means and partly from subscriptions, 
 mostly amongst a few. 
 
 94. Not from the finuls of the corps ? — Sometimes 
 they may get a grant of money to it; there has been, 
 I think, one of 50/. to it. 
 
 95. {Lord Overstnne.) You have stated that you 
 are verv jealous of allowing any avoidable expenses 
 to be thrown upon the othcers ; does that feeling 
 arise from any observation of yours of the tendency 
 of otRcers either to refuse to take the dutj-, or to 
 resign it after they have taken it, in consequence of 
 the pressure of pecuniary expenses ? — I have no 
 doubt that that does occur. 
 
 96. It is within your experience and belief that 
 pecuniary expenses pressing upon officers tend to 
 diminish the efficiency of the corps as regards the 
 obtaining of officers and the danger of losing them 
 afterwards ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 97. From your statement it appears that the ex- 
 pense of a volunteer corps is the main ground for 
 apprehending the danger to its efhciency, and you 
 have suggested several arrangements for the purpose 
 of effecting a more economical management of the 
 funds. Do you think if those arrangements were 
 elFectually carried out that they would completely 
 remove the difficulty and danger that arise from the 
 expense, or do you tliink that further measures would 
 still be desirable ? — Further measures are undoubtedly 
 desirable. 
 
 98. A volunteer entering the service incurs two 
 sacrifices; one, the pecuniary sacrifice involved in 
 the subscription, and the other the sacrifice involved 
 in the loss of his time and his labour. Which do you 
 conceive presses most severely upon their feelings ? — 
 It depends very much upon the different circum- 
 stances. In some cases the arrangements of the drill 
 may be faulty, and tliey may feel that they are losing 
 their time for nothing, if the drill is badly arranged, 
 and the battalions badly arranged, so that a man has 
 to go four or five miles, when by a different distribu- 
 tion he would have only to go one, and a man will 
 say that that is unnecessar}', and that weighs upon 
 him much more than if he saw that it was absolutely 
 indispensable. 
 
 99. Taking it generally, the circumstance of the 
 loss of time would, of course, be augmented by the 
 feeling that it was unreasonably lost, but do you 
 think that the loss of time which is necessarily 
 involved in joining a volunteer movement predo- 
 minates in the estimation of the general volunteer 
 body over the pressure arising from expense ? — I 
 apprehend that that affects the volunteer force, and 
 that there are vast numbers of men who would join 
 us if those two sources of expense could be dimi- 
 nished. 
 
 100. I presume that you are not at present going 
 into the question of the remedies ; the loss of time, I 
 presume, is an unavoidalile sacrifice ? — To a certain 
 extent it is. 
 
 101. {Sir A. Campbell.) Is it not possible to 
 arrange the drills so that the times should fall in the 
 leisure hours, and not in the business hours of the 
 volunteers ? — To a great extent it is, but there again 
 the faulty arrangement of the battalions operates 
 very severely, and I can illustrate that in this way : 
 instead of the battalions being raised exclusively 
 from their own neighbourhoods (I am speaking, of 
 course, of London now), they are completely mixed 
 tip ; for instance, I may have some of my men, 
 perhaps 100, living three miles off, whereas the men 
 living close round my head (juarters may go four 
 miles off. They have been induced by some diffe- 
 rence in uniform, and then, of course, they get tired 
 of volunteering. 
 
 102. {Col. MacMurdo.) They do not join other 
 corps nearer to their neighbourhood ? —I think that 
 
 when once they have joined and have got tired of it, 
 it is very difficult indeed to get them again. 
 
 103. {T^ord Hardhigc.) You have no defined area 
 of recruiting ? — No. 
 
 104. Would it l)e possible to have a defined area 
 for recruiting ? — I think it is indispensable ; the 
 force cannot exist without it. 
 
 105. {Lord Elcho.) Do you mean compulsorily ? — 
 Not compulsory enlistment, but compulsory districts. 
 
 106. {Lord Liar dinge.) That would not apply to 
 national corps, such as the Irish and the Scottish ? — 
 I do not know how far a general principle is to be 
 modified for individual cases. 
 
 107. Have you not known instances of new corps 
 being raised almost within a stone's throw of the 
 head quarters of an existing corps ? — Yes, quite so ; 
 and that is a point which I will enter into under the 
 head of organization. 
 
 108. {Lord Elcho.) Have you any entrance fee as 
 well as a subscription ? — I have by the rules, but I 
 have dispensed with it. 
 
 109. What was the amount of it ? — Half a guinea. 
 
 1 10. Do you believe that it checked recruiting ? — 
 Yes ; and I was obliged to do it, as all the other 
 regimenfts in my neighbourhood did away with it. 
 
 111. Do the officers pay anything on receiving 
 their commissions ? — No, beyond the fees to the lord 
 lieutenant's office. 
 
 112. {Lord Overstone.) I understand your view 
 upon the subject of expense to be that the cost of a 
 volunteer corps is at present a serious impediment to 
 its efficiency ? — Undoubtedly ; the cost to the men. 
 
 113. And you are also of opinion that a consider- 
 able proportion of that burden may be removed by 
 better and more efficient arrangements ? — Yes. 
 
 114. But you are still of opinion tliat there will 
 remain a pressure of a pecuniary character which re- 
 quires a further remedy ? — Quite so. 
 
 115. (/S';> A. Campbell.) With regard to the size of 
 the battalions, you stated that if there were fewer 
 battalions there would be less headquarters expense. 
 I understood, from what you stated afterwards, that 
 that meant if the battalions were concentrated in 
 different parts of London, so that you would have 
 jierhaps 1,000 men in each district, and that would 
 involve less expense ? — Yes. 
 
 116. Do you suppose that there would not be any 
 difficulty in inducing volunteer corps to consent to such 
 an arrangement, and that it would not cause a falling 
 away of the numbers ? — I think that unless a re- 
 arrangement of the system is made the force will fall 
 to pieces. I think it is a question of two evils. 
 
 117. {Major Harcourl.) Must not that be done by 
 an agreement between two commanding officers ? — I 
 think it can be done. 
 
 lis. Do not you flunk that an agreement between 
 the commanding officers, that they should not take 
 men from neighbouring corps, might overcome the 
 difficulty ? — I do not think that there is any practical 
 way of carrying it out in that way. 
 
 119. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you not think that if 
 such amalgamations were carried out by orders from 
 head quarters they would be the cause of many men 
 resigning on account of being transferred from one 
 corps to another ? — I do not think so. It is merely 
 a matter of administration ; you need not remove 
 them from the command of their own officers. All 
 the effect of it would bo to make those officers part 
 of the system. I will take an instance. There are 
 three small battalions, whose real and positive 
 strength is not more than 300 or 400, and if those 
 three battalions were put together, and they had one 
 uniform given to them, they would become one bat- 
 talion, and still be to a certain extent, as far as the 
 companies go, completely under their own officers. 
 The amalgamation would be, I think, complete. They 
 would be part of a system, instead of being in units. 
 
 120. {Lord Hardinge.) There would be greater 
 esprit de corps in larger battalions ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 121. {Liei/t.-Col. Barttelot.) You think it absolutely 
 necessary that the volunteer force should be clothed 
 
 I
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO TITK CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 21 
 
 in oue colour ? — I think tluit woukl much iucrcuso 
 the efficiency of the force. 
 
 121.'. {l^nrd Elcho.) Are you aware whether lh(^ 
 results which you anticipate would follow, do actually 
 take place where what you sutrgcst exists ; take, fur 
 example, the Queen's at Westmiasler ? — I am not able 
 to form an opinion about that particular ecu'ps, but I 
 do not think that you can jndn;eof the eiiiciency of any 
 system from any particular instance, unless you arc 
 sure that you eliminate from that instance all tho 
 other causes that may alfeet the system. The system 
 may be ijood in itself, but there may be other causes, 
 from badness of administration and so on, which may 
 vitiate the results of the system. 
 
 123. You assume that if that which you propose is 
 found to fail it is because of defective administration, 
 and not owing to any defect in the system itself? — 
 It is part of the defect of the present system of tho 
 force generally ; a thing which may be possible with 
 one battalion, if the whole force were constituted on 
 the same principle, would be impossible if each bat- 
 talion were organized on ditferent principles. 
 
 124. That is to say if the rules of each corps are 
 ditferent, as in their method of drill and carrying out 
 the various details of the regiment ? — Yes. 
 
 125. You would recommend one uniform system of 
 rules, and one uniform system of drill? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 126. And one uniform system of organization ? — 
 Yes ; I have a proposal to that effect. 
 
 127. {Col. MacMurdo.) Applying that principle 
 to your own case ; you have eight companies, would 
 you propose that a small battalion, consisting of four 
 companies, should be joined to yours compulsorily, 
 supposing that the corps consisted of men entirely of 
 a different class from the men of your own battalion ? 
 —I believe that if one definite system were struck 
 out, and carried out with efficiency, the men would 
 come in better ; if it were put upon one recognized 
 military system the force would bo not only far more 
 efficient, but the numbers would bo greater, and it 
 would come out far better than it docs now. 
 
 128. {Lord Hrirdiinic.) Is it not the fact that 
 m:inv of the metropolitan corps which have been 
 sanctioned by authority have not any specified range 
 attached to the corps ? — I believe so. 
 
 129. Your plan of amalgamating tlie small batta- 
 lions, and making them larger battalions, would in a 
 great measure facilitate that question of range, would 
 it not ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 130. Where is your range ? — At Wormwood 
 Scrubbs. 
 
 131. Then assuming that the smaller corps in 
 your neighbourhood were amalgamated with your 
 battalion, the whole of the anuilgamatcd battalions 
 would be in a position to shoot at your present range 
 at Wormwood Scrubbs ? — Hut other arrangements 
 would have to bo made as a matter of course, for if 
 500 men have paid for a thing they would not like 
 to sec 500 other men come and use it. 
 
 132. {Chairman.) I understand your view to be 
 this, that in every district there should be a certain 
 quota of volunteers within it ?— Yes. 
 
 133. Could your plan be made to come into opera- 
 tion by prospective arrangements, so that it should 
 commence in 12 months, or in two or three years ? — 
 I think that any remodelling of the force that might 
 take place must have time. 
 
 134. {Lord Orerstone.) With regard to the second 
 head, namely, the pressure upon the volunteer force 
 from a sense of their loss of time, do you think that 
 by better arrangements with regard to the periods 
 of drill and other considerations, that pressure might 
 be in some degree relieved ? — Yes. 
 
 135. A largo proportion must necessarily adhere to 
 the system ? — Yes. 
 
 13(5. {C/iairmnji.) Have you anything now testate 
 on the head of defective ec(uipment ? — I think that 
 the want of one uniform is destructive, to a great 
 extent, of discipline. It destroys the soldier-like feel- 
 ing when one regiment is in one uniform and another 
 regiment in another. They imagine that it is merely 
 
 jdaying at soldiers, and they do not look upon them- 
 selves as part of a national force which has a recog- 
 nized existence. 
 
 137. {Sir A. Caiiijifxll.) Do you think that tl;c 
 esprit de corps is not to a certain extent kc))t up by 
 the dilference in the uniform? — Dilfirent facing3 
 wi>uld be enough, I think, for tliar. 
 
 138. (Lord Ovcrstoiir.) I presume that yonr view 
 of the dift'ercnce in ecjuipmcnt would be to conl'orm as 
 nearly as possible to the practice of liic regular army? 
 — Yes. 
 
 139. {Lord JhirdiiKjc.) Wliat is your opinion as to 
 adopting scarlet for the vohniteer force ? — I think that 
 would destroy to a great extent the idea of the dis- 
 tinctive character of the volunteers. I can hardly say 
 whether it w'ould be iiopnhir, but I tliink the expense 
 would undoubtedly bo greater, atul it would also tend 
 to remove the idea that they were to act as light troops. 
 Directly they were dressed as tho regular army they 
 would be compared with them with regard to steadi- 
 ness at drill, and they never could compare with tho 
 regular army but as light ti'oops, who would act to 
 a great extent in conceabnent or as skirmishers. They 
 have a distinct character of their own. 
 
 140. {Chdirmaii.) You would not adopt scarlet, but 
 you would adopt one uniform colour for all regiments? 
 — Yes. 
 
 141. {Lord Overstotie.) Is it not essential, on a 
 variety of considerations, to retain really both an 
 ostensible and an effectual distinction between the 
 volunteer force and the regular army of the kingdom? 
 — Undoubtedly. 
 
 142. {J^ord Elcho.') Tho volunteers have to go out 
 in all weathers ? — Yes. 
 
 143. The army does not do so ? — No. 
 
 144. Would it not be the case that scarlet would 
 very soon become purple ? — [ have no doubt of It. 
 
 145. {Chairman.) Have you any observations to 
 make as to any other article of equipment ? — Tlie 
 total inefficiency of the field equipment is a most 
 serious consideration. 
 
 146. {I^iei/t.-Col. Bartfclnf.) Will you begin with 
 the accoutrements, the iiouches, and state whether, as 
 far as you know, your pouches and belts are of an 
 efficient character, or whether they are not deficient 
 in the quantity of ammunition they are required to 
 carry ? — My own men carry 60 rounds, but I was 
 rather referring "to the cooking utensils, the camp 
 equipment. 
 
 147. {Col. MacMurdo.) Will you state where the 
 deficiency is ? — It is simply this. If the force were 
 ordered out at 24 hours' notice, and were marched 
 10 miles into tho country, the men would have no 
 means of cooking their food ; and they would have 
 no mode of providing themselves with any sort of 
 comfort. 
 
 Lord Radstock, 
 27 May 18C2. 
 
 the camp equipment, arc 
 capes or cloaks ? — I think 
 
 148. Independently of 
 your men provided with 
 about 25 per cent. 
 
 149. Not more?— No. 
 
 150. {L.ord Elcho.) That is not a compulsory part 
 of the uniform is it ? — No. 
 
 151. Is there a regimental pattern ? — Yes. 
 
 152. Is it a cape or a cloak ? — It is a sort of In- 
 verness. 
 
 153. Do you know the cost of it ? — 30^. 
 
 154. {Lord ILirdiiif/e.) Is it your opinion that in 
 the event of the volunteers being called out at 24 
 hours' notice they should be ])rovided with their own 
 great coats and Inivresacks, and that they should not 
 rely upon what may be issued out to them from the 
 Government stores ? — I sliould nnieh rather have 
 them ourselves than have them in stores. 
 
 155. {L^ord Orcrs/oiir.) We have spoken of the 
 possibility of diminished efficiencN' in the volunteer 
 movement which nuiy occur either from the diminished 
 number of men enlisted, ur from the ijiellieiepcy of a 
 greater number of the men for their purposes. I 
 a])iuehend that your observations under the head of 
 diminished efficiency are addressed entirely to the 
 latter consideration ? — Quite so. 
 
 D 3
 
 22 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 156. (Col. MacMtii-do.) You confine the defective 
 equipment to knapsacks and great coats ? — Yes. 
 
 1.j7. It" they had great coats oi' their own, would 
 not that greatly increase the expense to the volunteers 
 themselves ? — Or to the Government. 
 
 158. Supposing that knajtsacks were given to your 
 men, and that certain fluctuations took place in your 
 corps from many resignations, how would you dispose 
 of the knapsacks of the men who resigned ; would 
 you consider tbem as Government equipments ? — I 
 think tliey might be treated just like the rifles. 
 
 159. Would you teach the men to carry the knap- 
 sack with a certain kit ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 160. Would not that fall upon the number of men 
 who came to drill ? — That would depend upon whether 
 it was done with discretion or not, whether you had 
 it very often, or whether you worked the men very 
 hard ; it would depend entirely upon the way in which 
 it was done. 
 
 161. Is there any other part of the equipment 
 which you consider defective besides the knapsacks 
 and the great coats ? — No ; I think not. 
 
 162. [Major- Gen. Eyre.) You do not allude to the 
 rifles ? — No. 
 
 163. {Lord Elcho.) Do your men wear leggings ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 164. Do you consider those leggings an essential 
 part of the equipment ? — Speaking generally, I do. 
 
 165. {Chairman.) Will you be kind enough to 
 state your views upon the subject of defective orga- 
 nization ? — The main defect is, that there is not a 
 thorough military character impressed upon the 
 force. The corps Vi'ere originally raised under the 
 idea that they were to be a sort of rifle clubs, wliere 
 the men would have at least as great a right to make 
 arrangements as their commanding officers. Tlie 
 rules of most corps were framed on that principle, 
 recognizing meetings, and, in fact, all the diflc'rent 
 incidents of a club. I conceive that this has been 
 very prejudicial to the efficiency and to tlie vitality of 
 the movement, the men being allowed to discuss 
 certain points among themselves, and to decide by 
 vote, merely perpetuates a source of discussion. If a 
 man has an order given him, and he knows he must 
 obey it, the discussion at onre ceases, but if he thinks 
 that by agitation or discussion he can get that order 
 reversed, or by getting up a meeting he can get a 
 certain course of proceeding reversed, he may go on 
 making agitations for months and years ; whereas by 
 an organization of a distinctly military kind, where it 
 is an understood thing that an order is an order to be 
 carried out, the meu would at once submit, and would 
 like it infinitely better. 
 
 166. Do not the rules of the corps embrace that, so 
 that no order is ever disputed that is given by an 
 officer ? — I am particularly well situated in my 
 arrangements, as those who have enlisted are a very 
 good class of men, and they have never given me the 
 slightest trouble ; but there is no doubt that, looking 
 to the force generall}', it is a very serious weakness, 
 and one that will entirely destroy it in a very short 
 time unless it is manfully faced and dealt with. 
 
 167. {Major Harcourt.) Is it not within the power 
 of any commanding officer to overcome that, and is it 
 not his own fault if such a thing exists in his corps ? 
 — It depends on circumstances. 
 
 168. {Lord Hardinge.) Do you think it possible 
 or desirable that the Government should frame regu- 
 lations, such as would lay down one uniform system 
 of discipline for the corps generally ? — Yes, quite so; 
 I think it indispensable. 
 
 169. {Lord Overstone.) Do you give that answer 
 after fully considering -whaX must be the efl'ect of 
 such peremptory orders upon the volunteer force ? — 
 Yes : it depends upon what the regulations are. 
 
 170. Judicious regulations issued by tlie Govern- 
 ment, although imperative, would not, you think, 
 seriously militate against the volunteer feeling? — No. 
 
 171. {Lord Elcho.) Is it not the case that a com- 
 mittee was appointed of volunteer officers at the 
 
 commencement of the movement to draw up a set of 
 rules ? — Yes. 
 
 172. Is it not the fact that those rules have not been 
 accepted as tlie rules of the force ; that is to say, that 
 each corps has taken them perliaps as the basis, but 
 has engrafted upon them whatever it fancied ? — Yes. 
 
 173. Subject always to revision at the War Office ? 
 — Quite so. 
 
 174. At the present time, practically, every corps 
 in the kingdom is organized and established under a 
 different set of rules ? — Yes ; quite so. 
 
 175. The rules are drawn up by the commanding 
 officer ; they then go to the Lord Lieutenant, who sig- 
 nifies liis approval, and then they are submitted to 
 the War Ofldce, for the sanction of the Secretary of 
 State ?— Yes. 
 
 176. {I^ord Overstone.) You are of opinion that 
 the code of rules which now exist in every different 
 regiment ought to be rendered one and the same for 
 the whole of the volunj^er force? — Yes, and enforced 
 by authority ; for if not. enforced by authority some 
 commanding officers who carry out a proper system 
 are injured by others who carry out the system in an 
 inefficient manner, and thus create discontent among 
 the men in those regiments where the system is 
 observed strictly. 
 
 177. You think that the code of rules ought to be 
 one for the whole of the volunteer force, and that it 
 should be enforced by sufficient authority ? — Quite so. 
 
 178. Do you think that that may be accomplished 
 with due regard to the vitality of the volunteer feel- 
 ing ? — Yes. 
 
 179. {Lord Hardinge.) Do you think that if one 
 uniform system of discipline were established, and 
 one uniform system of regulations, such as have been 
 hinted at, the volunteers generally would readily 
 comply with them? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 ISO. {Sir A. Campbell.) You mentioned just now 
 that discussions take place sometimes ? — Yes. 
 
 181. On what points do you allow discussions to 
 take place and where ? — By the rules of the corps 
 they are allowed to take place for the civil business 
 of the corps. 
 
 182. Not for the military business of the corps ? — 
 No ; but it is always difficult to define the exact line. 
 I am not speaking as to my own experience, for I 
 have never had one difficulty of any serious moment; 
 anything that has arisen has been immediately 
 settled. 
 
 1 83. ( Col. MacMurdo.) In what respects are these 
 discussions objectionable ? — Tlie very name of volun- 
 teer makes a man imagine to a certain extent that he 
 can do as he likes, and it takes some months to din 
 into liim that he is to do as he is told. 
 
 184. But these discussions are not about military 
 matters, are they ? — I suspect that they do arise. 
 
 185. Are tliey not rather as to the disposal of the 
 funds to which the men contribute themselves ? — 
 Quite so ; but if they can find fault with the com- 
 manding officer upon oae point, and can say, " This 
 " commanding officer has administered- these funds 
 " badly, we think he ought to have done so and so," 
 his authority is greatly destroyed. 
 
 186. According to the rules of your corps you are 
 assisted by a large council of 12 members ? — -Yes. 
 
 187. Do they dispose of the funds only with your 
 sanction ? — Quite so. 
 
 188. {Lord Hardinge.) Are you aware wliether it 
 is the practice in any corps, or in corps generally, 
 when certain vacancies occur in a regiment, to hold 
 meetings and discuss the claims of the different offi- 
 cers or non-commissioned officers for promotion ? — 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 189. Is that in your opinion objectionable ? — Yes, 
 most destructive. 
 
 190. {Col. MacMurdo.) And yet, according to 
 your rules, you allow the council to recommend to 
 you gentlemen for promotion ? — Quite so. As I have 
 stated before, the rules of all the corps were based in 
 early days upon the idea that it was a modified rifle 
 club.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEEK FOKCK IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 191. Is Eule No. 5, that tlio officer in command 
 will, on the recomnieudation of the couiifil, propose 
 to the Lord Lieutenant gentlemen for cunimissionn, 
 carried out ? — Practically, I appoint all the officers. 
 
 192. Without the a^isistance of the council 'i — As a 
 matter of form and as a matter o" conrtesy, I pass it 
 through ; still, if it comes to a push, I should stand 
 upon my right, and say that noljody can appoint an 
 officer but me. 
 
 193. {Lord Overstone.) You issue a congi d'elire? 
 — .It is practically that. 
 
 194. {Lord Eldio.) Is it not desirable, .without 
 giving any actual power to the corps, and reserving 
 the full power and responsibility which ought to rest 
 with the commanding officer, that he should ascertain 
 to a certain extent how far the appointments would be 
 acceptable in the corps ? — I Ihink that if a command- 
 ing officer cannot find that out himself he is not fit 
 for his post. 
 
 I9o. But you think that it ought in no way to be 
 done by any meetings or discussions in the corps ? — 
 Undoubtedly it ought not. 
 
 190. {Chairman.) No discussion does take place, I 
 presume, in your corps as to the appointment of 
 officers ? — AVhen they were first formed, there was a 
 requisition sent to me to appoint a man as an officer. 
 I was convinced that be was unfit for it, and I refused 
 'to give him the a|)pointmeut. There was a little 
 grumbling, but nothing further. 
 
 197. From the beginning of your career, have you 
 had no difficulty whatever as to the appointment of 
 officers ? — It is always a difficult question. 
 
 198. The discretion has been left entirely to you as 
 commanding officer, has it not ? — Practically, it has. 
 
 199. Have you taken pains to ascertain what the 
 feelings of the men were before you made an appoint- 
 ment ? — Yes ; but the very fact of my having, as a 
 matter of form, to pass it through, to a certain extent 
 ties my hands. 
 
 200. {Lord Elcho.) How was your own appoint- 
 ment made. Yon said that you had been a captain ; 
 was it by the council of the corps ? — No ; my appoint- 
 ment was in this way. Tiiere was a committee formed 
 for the purpose of raising the corps, which I joined, 
 and I became the chairman of that committee. Then 
 it was put that I should be proposed for the captain 
 of the first company. 
 
 201. Did the council appoint you ? — Yes, I was 
 appointed by my council. 
 
 202. {Blajor Ilarcourt.) Do you take the same view 
 of the appointment of non-commissioned officers as of 
 officers ? — My own plan in the appointment of non- 
 commissioned officers is this. The captain of the 
 company knows the different situations of the men ; 
 those who have got time ; and he also knows their 
 differeut feelings and tempers, and I leave to him the 
 appointment of the non-commissioned officers, subject 
 to mv approval ; and then, in order to secure their 
 efficiency, I inspect them twice a year, and if they 
 prove inefficient on two inspections, I reduce them. 
 
 203. Do your cai)tains consult the feelings of the 
 men in the appointment of non-commissioned officers ? 
 — Indirectly they do, but not by anything like a 
 meeting. 
 
 204. Do you not think that the efficiency of non- 
 commissioned officers, as well as their efficiency in 
 drill, depends a great deal upon their standing with 
 the men ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 205. Do you think that that can be found out en- 
 tirely by the captain ? — He is not fit for his post if he 
 cannot find that out. 
 
 206. As to the social position of a man, he is not 
 competent to ibrm an opinion upon that ? — Yes, ho 
 finds it out. 
 
 207. It is not recognized tliat the men should be 
 consulted in the appointment of the non-commissioned 
 officers ? — It is not recognized ; but you have within 
 your rules that which is always iii terrorem. over 
 your head. 
 
 208. {Lord Overstone.) Your view is that, as a 
 
 matter of military discipline, full authority ought to 
 be invested in the colonel connnanding ? — Yes. 
 
 209. But, as a matter of |)ractical wisdom, con- 
 sidering the peculiar character of the volunteer 
 force, the comnnuiding ofticer will necessarily consult 
 and ascertain the feeling of the corps more; than in a 
 regiment of the line '< — Yes ; he will ascertain by 
 private inquiries what is the feeling of tiie men. 
 
 210. {Major Ilarcoiir/.) Should you strongly ob- 
 ject to the election of a non-connnissioned ollicer by 
 the men, subject to your api)roval as to his efficiency ? 
 — It would not work with us ; the difficulty is to gel 
 a good man to take it. We work the non-commis- 
 sioned officers so hard, that the difficulty is to get a 
 man to take it. 
 
 211. {LipHf.-Col. Barltclot.) Is not that quite 
 contrary to the |)riiici|de that you wish to lay down, 
 that the men should have no power of electing ? — I 
 think it would be a very inisafe principle to introduce. 
 
 212. {Sir A. Campbell.) If o company is vacant, 
 is it your usual practice to promote the lieutenant of 
 the company, or to promote the lieutenant in the 
 regiment whom you consider to bo the most fit ? — It 
 varies ; some companies are piu'cly local companies, 
 and then you have to look at that circumstance ; for 
 instance, I have one company from the London Univer- 
 sity, and of course it is very desirable that all their 
 officers should be living amongst them, knowing 
 them all as friends. 
 
 213. If you brought an officer from another com- 
 pany, although notoriously a better soldier, you do 
 not think it would work ? — It would depend as to 
 how much he was a better soldier. I wish to remark 
 that the one great fault in the organization is that 
 there is no central authority to secure the efficiency 
 of the officers. 
 
 214. {Lord. Hardinr/e.) Further than, I presume, 
 the authority of the inspecting officer ? — He has the 
 power of judging of the efficiency of officers in the 
 mass, but not individuiUly. Upon the inspection of 
 battalions, where there arc 20 or 30 officers, he cannot 
 tell what their efficiency is. 
 
 215. But can he not have each company out if Ik^ 
 pleases, and ascertain whether the captains and sub- 
 alterns are up to their work or not ? — It would bo 
 very difficult, I think, from an inspection of that 
 sort, to ascertain really the fact ; you might hit 
 upon one man and not upon another. You might 
 hit upon one good man out of 20 bad ones, or vice 
 versa. 
 
 216. Your remark would equally apply to the 
 militia ; they have no central authority ? — I am not 
 aware what their system is. 
 
 217. {Chairman.) In the militia the officers ap- 
 pointed have to undergo a certain amount of 
 examination ? — Quite so. 
 
 218. Is any such examination insisted upo?i in the 
 volutiteers? — I do myself. 
 
 219. Do you insist upon any subaltern officer that 
 yon appoint undergoing a certain amount of discipline 
 with regular troops ? — Yes, unless a man is thoroughl)' 
 up to his work ; then I excuse him from being at- 
 tached to a regiment. 
 
 220. After all it depends, does it not, very much 
 upon the colonel of the regiment whether his officers 
 are efficient ? — The whole of the volunteer movement 
 depends upon the officers commanding the regiments. 
 
 221. It is quite within the power of the colonel, if 
 he chooses to insist upon all those officers going 
 through a certain amount of discipline with regular 
 troo])?, to qualify them for command ? —Quite so. 
 
 222. Have yon anything further to add on the 
 subject of organization ? — Nothing further. 
 
 223. Will you now go to the defects in discipline ? — 
 The great difficulty as to discipline is that which I 
 have already hinted at ; there is no recognized code of 
 discipline, not only one code of rules for corps but 
 a code of discipline are wanted ; there ought to be a 
 di.^tinct principle laid down as to what is allowablo 
 and what is not allowable. From the want of a 
 central authority the discipline becomes very much 
 
 D 4
 
 24 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 27 May 1862. 
 
 lord Raistock. impaired in this way, that the commanding officers to 
 a certain extent bid one against another ; I do not 
 mean to say that they do so designedly, but practically 
 it is so, and one corps is at first more jiopular than 
 another, very often for laxity in discipline. 
 
 224. In your opinion there should be some general 
 rule of the service, to prevent a man who has been 
 turned out of one corps being taken into another ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 22.5. (Major JIfirco)irt.) AVhat power has a com- 
 manding officer of enforcing any of his orders upon 
 his captains or his subalterns ? — He has no adequate 
 poAver. 
 
 226. No power to enforce any command ? — No ; I 
 should say that the power is very undefined. 
 
 227. (Lictit.-Col. Barttelot.) Do you feel that you 
 have every power on parade ? — -Your power de])ends in 
 the main on the public opinion of your men ; the only 
 ultimate power which a commanding officer has, is in 
 the public opinion of his men, and if he draws the bit 
 in the least degree tighter than the public opinion of 
 the men will warrant, he loses his men. 
 
 228. {Col. MacMiirdo.) By Rule 13 of your own 
 corps, it is laid down that " the senior officer in 
 " command shall have power, subject to the approval 
 '• of the commanding officer, to inflict fines for dis- 
 " obedience not exceeding \0s., or less than 2s. 6d. ? " 
 — Yes. 
 
 229. Tliat may not be adequate, but there is a 
 power given over the men by fining them ? — The 
 answer to that is, that a man will pay his fine and go. 
 
 230. Moreover there is an Act of Parliament to 
 enable you to dismiss a man for disobedience of 
 orders ? — That is no punishment to him ; he does not 
 care. 
 
 231. (.S';> A. Crimphell.) Is it within your know- 
 ledge that there have been any difficulties in carrying 
 out any order on parade ? — Not in my own regiment. 
 
 232. {Col. MacMurdo.) You have stated that a 
 code of discipline was wanted; is the Act of Par- 
 liament insufficient in that respect, and the rules of 
 your corps, and if so in what particulars? — I think 
 that neither the Act of Parliament nor the rules are 
 at all applicable, they do not help you ; whenever a 
 practical difficulty occurs the Act does not give you a 
 distinct category of offence ; nor does it give you a 
 distinct power to deal with the difficulties that arise. 
 
 233. Suppose a man dischai'ge his rifle in the 
 ranks, you would have the means of dealing with 
 that offence as laid down by your own rule ? — Yes. 
 
 234. Supposing a man disobeyed you on parade, 
 you would have the means of dealing with that ; you 
 could arrest and take him before a magistrate and 
 have him fined, and you might afterwards dismiss 
 him from the corps ? — Yes ; but still you could never 
 carry that out further than the public opinion of your 
 corps would warrant you, and that public opinion 
 rests to a great extent upon the practice of the corps 
 surrounding them ; I am dependent not only upon my 
 own discipline, but 1 have to measure the average 
 discipline of all the corps around me. 
 
 235. ( Chairman.^ Therefore if the discipline was 
 made uniform in all the volunteer corps, that defect 
 would be cured ? — Yes 
 
 236. {Liettf.-Col. Barttelot.) Does it not also rest 
 upon the character that a man bears in the corps ? — 
 Yes, to a certain extent. 
 
 237. {Lord Hardiiif/e.) Do you think that any alter- 
 ation might be made in the Act of Parliament with 
 regard to what constitutes an eflfective member ? — 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 238. {Lord Elcho.) Have you any system of drill 
 in your regiment, meaning by system regular periods 
 for certain descriptions of drill, in the course of 
 twelvemonths ? — I will describe to the Commission 
 what a man goes through : On joining the corps he 
 goes through the ordinary stages of drill under the 
 Serjeant instructor, and when he is thoroughly in- 
 structed, he is passed by the adjutant into the ranks, 
 and takes his jilace in his company. At the begin- 
 ning of every jear we have a setting-up drill. 
 
 239. Is that at the beginning of your regimental 
 year ? — No, it is at the beginning of the year ; in 
 January or towards the end of the winter wc begin 
 then the setting-up drill. 
 
 240. When do you have your battalion drill, do 
 they commence at a certain time ? — I have a battalion 
 out all the year round. 
 
 241. You have no fixed period when you have 
 battalion drills ? — No. After the setting-up drill has 
 been going on for some time, I say that no man shall 
 fall into a battalion who has not passed through the 
 setting }ip drill. 
 
 242. When do you exclude those who have not 
 passed the setting-up drill from battalion drills ? — 
 Generally about two months after the setting-up drill 
 has commenced. 
 
 243. Before the month of March ? — About that 
 time ; but the battalion drill has been going on all 
 the time ; for instance, I begin the setting-up drill 
 on the 1st of January, and on the 1st of March I say 
 that no man who has not passed the setting-up drill 
 shall fall in with the battalion. 
 
 244. Between the 1st of January and the 1st of 
 March is the regiment going out to be exercised in 
 battalion drill ? — Yes. 
 
 24.5. Then you have battalion drill all the year 
 round ? — Yes. 
 
 246. Once a week ? — Yes, with the exception, per- 
 haps, of eight or ten weeks in the year. 
 
 247. Then you do discontinue it during a part of 
 the year ?— Yes, in August and September". 
 
 248. Do you have these battalion drills in the 
 winter time, in the dark ? — Yes. 
 
 249. Do you march in the dark in winter ? — Yes. 
 
 2.50. Where do you have your battalion drills in 
 the dark ? — In the barrack yard at St. John's Wood. 
 
 2.51. Is the attendance of tlie men good at those 
 battalion drills in the dark ? — Yes. 
 
 232. As good as they are later in the year ? — Al- 
 most better, and I can explain why. In the winter 
 the men have very little opportunity for recreation, 
 and they are glad to have exercise. In the summer 
 they have cricket, boating, and a variety of things 
 which call them away. 
 
 253. {LJetit.-Col. Barttelot.) Would it not be better 
 if those battalion drills were confined to certain pe- 
 riods of the year instead of extending over the whole 
 year ? — I think it is a very difficult question ; for 
 some it would and for some it would not. A great 
 many of the men in my regiment come to drill for 
 the sake of exercise ; they like it and they come once 
 a week regularly, and if the drills were to be dis- 
 continued, they would acquire other habits of exer- 
 cise, and would not come at all. Then there are other 
 men who never come near us in the winter time, but 
 they do come in the summer. 
 
 254. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Unless there is a grand 
 field day ? — Yes. 
 
 255. {Major Ilarcourt.) Do you mean that you 
 would rather have your regiment inspected at the end 
 of March than at the end of July ? — Yes. 
 
 256. {Chairman.) Would they be as efficient at the 
 end of March as in July ? — More so. 
 
 257. {Major Harcourt.) At what time of the year 
 has your regiment generally been inspected ? — Gene- 
 rally in June. 
 
 258. Always at the same time ? — No, once in the 
 winter. 
 
 259. Would it not be more convenient to the men 
 that it should take place at one time in the year ? — I 
 do not think it matters very much. 
 
 260. {Col. MacMurdo.) At the last inspection it 
 appears that there were 234 members absent without 
 leave ? — Yes. 
 
 261. What was the reason assigned generally for 
 that absence ? — Those figures relate to the strength 
 on paper, those are part of the men who were on 
 paper and who were not at parade. I should say 
 that about 100 of those probably were away or had 
 left. We cannot tell exactly what has become of 
 them. A certain other proportion of those were men
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOT,UNTKER FORf'R IN fJREAT lilllT.MX. 
 
 whose business engagements would not jxTiuit tliciu 
 to attend : sickness, and otiier causes. 
 
 262. {Lord Elcho.) You have stated that the 
 strength of your regiment on paper is 609 ? — Yes. 
 
 263. What do yon think lias been the average 
 attendance at the battalion drills, whether in sununer 
 or winter ? — I gave an answer to that in the early 
 part of my examination, and I gave roughly 150 as 
 the approximate attendance. 
 
 264. In your regiment you cannot ever reckon as 
 the average attendance upon more than one-tliird of 
 the strength on jiaper ? — No. 
 
 26o. Do y<iu hnd that tlie average attendance on 
 divisional and brigade field days is consideraldy in 
 excess of the average attendance at the ordinary bat- 
 talion parades ? — Undoubtedlj'. 
 
 266. Do you find that the brigade and divisional 
 field days have any eft'ect upon the subsecjuent atten- 
 dance at battalion drills in increasing or diminishing 
 the attendance ? — Yes. They increase them at the 
 parades before, and diminish them afterwards ; they 
 act as a stimulus, in fact. 
 
 267. Latterly, since these great field days have 
 taken place, your regimental parades have not been 
 so well attended as before ? — No. 
 
 268. Can you speak generally as to whether that 
 has been the eti'ect upon the force at large ? — Un- 
 doubtedly. 
 
 269. Do you think that on that account it might 
 be desirable that the brigade field days should be 
 confined to the close of the season, rather than at the 
 commencement, when tlie men have gone through a 
 regular course of training and drill, and that those 
 only should take part in those brigade field days who 
 had attended at the regimental drills ? — The men who 
 take part in the divisional field days are those who 
 liave gone through those regimental drills. No man 
 can take part in a battalion drill, and of course, there- 
 fore, not in a brigade field day, until ho has passed 
 through his annual setting-up drill. 
 
 270. Have you any rule as to the number of those 
 liattalion parades which he must attend before you 
 let him take part in a battalion or divisional parade 
 day ? — Every year he must pass through the setting- 
 up drill. 
 
 271. After he has passed into the battalion drill, 
 do you require a certain number of attendances at 
 those battalion drills, before you let him attend a 
 brigade or divisional field day ? — No. 
 
 272. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) That is your own ar- 
 rangement ? — Yes. 
 
 273. {Chairman.) A man who had attended one 
 battalion drill would be allowed to go to a divisional 
 drill, if he was willing to do so ? — Yes. 
 
 274. {Lord Elcho.) You would assume him to be 
 fit from having passed through the setting-up drill ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 275. Have you any special method in your regi- 
 ment of distinguishing the attendances at drill ? — 
 The rolls are called. 
 
 276. I ask you the question under the impression 
 that there does exist in your regiment some means of 
 marking or distinguishing the men who have attended 
 a certain number of drills, in order to distinguish 
 them from others ? — Yes. 
 
 277. What is it ? — Those who pass the setting-up 
 drill are called the first-class drills, and then they 
 are allowed to take part in the others. 
 
 278. Do they bear any distinguishing mark ? — No; 
 the bulk of the regiment go through. 
 
 279. {Major Harcourt.) Do those who are put in 
 the other class have any exemptions ? — No, because 
 there is no compulsion. 
 
 280. {Lord Elcho.) Do you think that the present 
 number of drills which are required by the Act to 
 constitute an effective is the minimum which should 
 be required, or do you think that the number might 
 be reduced ? — I should say that 24 drills ought to be 
 enforced in the first year, and eight in the subsequent 
 year. 
 
 281. Are you aware that the number prescribed by 
 
 the Act of Parliament is 18 and not 24 ? — ]\Iy iniprcs- Lonl Jiitdstuck. 
 sion was that it was 24. 
 
 282. Lot us assume that 18 is the present immber of -'J^ '802. 
 tlie drills requiivd by the Act of Parliament, should " 
 you consider that number in excess of what is abso- 
 lutely required to ensure sufticient efficiency ? — Yes, 
 
 it is in excess. 
 
 283. How would you proposo to diminish the num- 
 ber ? — I should propose that each man tor his first 
 year should bi; considered a recruit, and tliat he 
 sliould have 24 drills, and tliat in any subsci|uent 
 year, he should have eight drills only. 1 think that 
 that wouUl be (|uile enough to kec|) it in his mind. 
 
 284. Tiios(! eight drills l)eiiig battalion drills? — I 
 should leave thai to the discretion of the commanding 
 oflicer. 
 
 285. Would it be advisable to fix those eight drills 
 as battalion drills, but that a man should be ex'Mupt 
 from the others, and if he i)assed an examining drill 
 like your setting-up drill, he should be at once 
 passed into a battalion ? — I should prefer to leave it 
 to the discretion of the commanding officer. 
 
 286. {Lord Ilardingc.) You are aware, probably, 
 that the militia have 21 days' drill in the course of a 
 year ? — Yes. 
 
 287. On what grounds do you advocate a reduction 
 in the number of the drills specified by the Act of Par- 
 liament ? — It is simply a ([uestioii of numbers. You 
 may get perhaps 10,000 men in the country to go 
 through 50 drills in a year, and you may get 40,000 
 men in the country who could go through 20 drills in 
 a year, but if you want to get the number into the 
 force which I think ought to exist, you must in my 
 opinion reduce the requirement to the lowest possible 
 amount. 
 
 288. {Col. MacMiirdo.) Might not some reason be 
 found for that in the superior intelligence of the men? 
 — Undoubtedly. 
 
 289. {Lord Oversfotie.) Do not you consider that 
 one of the most important considerations connected 
 with the volunteer movement is its tendency to 
 accustom a very large part of the population of the 
 country to the use of arms, and to a certain elementary 
 knowledge of military discipline ? — That is un- 
 doubtedly so. 
 
 290. Do not you think that a population so accus- 
 tomed to the use of arms would be more available in 
 a case of sudden emergency for the defence of the 
 country than a population not so accustomed ? — It all 
 depends upon the time which there is to organize 
 them. 
 
 291. Do you not think that the main consideration 
 in the volunteer movement is rather to accustom 
 a very large number of the population of the country 
 to the most elementary habits connected with mili- 
 tary operations than to form a small nucleus, much 
 more limited in number, although more advanced in 
 military discipline ? — I think that there must be a 
 mean taken between the two extremes. I think that 
 while it is possible to reduce the force too low, by 
 over-strictness, on the other hand, a large number 
 insufficiently instructed would be merely like a fiock 
 of sheep for want of proper organization. 
 
 292. Do you think that the two considerations, — 
 a strict and efficient military organization, and the 
 opposite consideration of mere elementary habits of a. 
 military character must be duly regarded and happily 
 combined to produce an efficient volunteer force ? — 
 Yes, only I would lay greater stress upon the efficiency 
 and military character of the force than upon the 
 other considerations. 
 
 293. Do you think, considering the principle and 
 the purposes of the volunteer force, thai those would 
 be more satisfactorily accomplished, say by a force of 
 50,000 men who had undergone pretty steady and 
 continuous military discipline, rather than by 500.000 
 men much less closely and efficiently disciplined or 
 accustomed to the use of ai'ins, and to most of the 
 elementary operations of regiments ? — It would depend 
 upon the organization that existed. 
 
 294. What do you mean by organization ? — For 
 
 E
 
 2G 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lurd RiiJ.stovh. instance, in my own battalion, I reckon that I Lave 
 500 available men, and in the eonrso of a few years 
 
 27 May 1SG2. j should have 500 other men who will have ])assed 
 throuiih that battalion, and who will still be available 
 to me, but who from having other pursuits had not 
 remained volunteers ; but the organization remaining 
 complete, and the efficiency of the men undiminished, 
 I could at onco take in those at a day's notice or 
 a week's notice, and take those 500 men into the field 
 with the 500 that I had already. 
 
 295. Supposing a regiment of 1,000 men, which 
 underwent a change of 500 men every year, at the 
 end of ten years 5,000 men would be thrown into the 
 country, accustomed to a certain extent to military 
 operations ; in the case of an invasion of the country, 
 and a sudden call upon the population to arm, do not 
 you think that that regiment of only 1,000 strong 
 when the emergency came would render more service 
 in preparing the country for its defence than would 
 be rendered by a regiment which had kept itself at 
 1,000 strong unchanged through the whole period ? — 
 That would depend upon the time there was to 
 organize them ; if I had six months to organize those 
 5,000 men, and to officer them, and to put them into 
 shape, that would undoubtedly be the best, but if the 
 time was limited, and there was only a week to 
 prepare, undoubtedly the smaller number would be 
 more nseful. 
 
 296. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) You would be better 
 without the 5,000, would you not ? — Yes. 
 
 297. ( Chairmaii.') The smaller number would form 
 a nucleus around which a l<irger body could be formed 
 in a smaller space of time, provided that smaller 
 number were thoroughly well-drilled and disciplined ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 298. (Lord Overstone.) But the formation of the 
 nucleus would be greatly promoted, would it not, by 
 the fact of those by whom it was to be formed having 
 previously undergone some elementary, although in- 
 complete, military discipline ? — Unless the organiza- 
 tion of a regiment is complete, they cannot work into 
 sha])e the materials which they have given to them. 
 
 299. But assume a given number of the regiments 
 to be thoroughly organized, would not those regiments 
 be able to draw around them a very much larger and 
 more efficient force in proportion as the people who 
 were to be called in to their aid had been previously 
 accustomed, although imperfectly, to a military orga- 
 nization ? — Yes. 
 
 300. Do you not think that it is- one important 
 consideration in the organization of the volunteer 
 movement, that it should be based upon the principle 
 of passing many men through the discipline of the 
 volunteer corps, and so filling the country with men 
 more or less, although incompletely accustomed to the 
 use of arms and to the practice of military operations ? 
 — It would be a question of degree. Supposing that 
 I have a regiment which has dwindled down to 300 
 men who are efficient, both officers and non-commis- 
 sioned officers, I could absorb 700 men who were 
 imperfectly drilled, and I would untlertake to keep 
 them together ; but if I had 3,000 or 4,000 men thrown 
 upon me I should be helpless, unless I had time. 
 
 301. {Lord Hardinge.) Assuming that the volun- 
 teer force in a time of peace was nothing more than 
 a nucleus, is it not very desirable that that nucleus 
 should be made as efficient as you can make it ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 302. If you reduce the number of the drills from 18 
 to eight, will not the efficiency of your battalions be 
 impaired ? — I think not to such an extent as to make 
 it hurtful as a nucleus. If you keep up the number 
 of drills, I believe that the attendance will flag so 
 seriously that the numbers wiU go oft' so much that 
 you will not have enough material to keep your 
 organization togetiier. You require a certain number 
 of men to practice your officers and non-commissioned 
 officers, and if you reduce that material too much you 
 will not get enough material upon which to practice 
 your organization. 
 
 303. In reducing the drills you say that you will 
 
 get more men to join you, but will you gain in num- 
 bers what you lose in efficiency ? — Undoubtedly ; the 
 number of drills, I think, is that which makes a 
 man know his place in the ranks ; he may not be so 
 smart, but he will be able to maintain his place. 
 
 304. {Lord Overstone.) In following the volun- 
 teer movement, have you not found that the existence 
 of a large number of officers who have passed through 
 the army and have then retired from it, has materially 
 facilitated and aided the organization of the volunteer 
 movement ? — I have not found it in my own case. 
 
 305. But speaking generally, has it not been found 
 that the existence throughout the country of a con- 
 siderable number of officers who have passed through 
 the regular discipline of the army and have retired, 
 has ))een very useful in aiding the progress of the 
 movement ? — Speaking generally, it has. 
 
 306. Do you not think that that is an illustration 
 of the principle that the volunteer movement itself, 
 by dispersing throughout the country, a large body 
 of persons who have gone through its discipline more 
 or less completely, will till the country ^^\i\\ a body 
 of persons who can be called to its aid in a case of 
 emergency ? — The difference is this, that in the case 
 you have supposed the army officers are those who 
 are to a certain extent efficient organizers. 
 
 307. And the volunteers are those who are imper- 
 fectly trained ? — Yes. 
 
 308. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) And, perhaps, to a cer- 
 tain degree not trained all ; for example, as to mus- 
 ketry instruction ? — Quite so. 
 
 309. {Lord Hardinge.) Do you think, taking into 
 account the time which every volunteer must lose, 
 in your own corps for instance, and considering that 
 the drill must take place in an evening, when the 
 men's daily employment is over, that 18 drills in a 
 year are too much to expect a man to go through ? — 
 I think they are too much to expect any large number 
 of men to take a pleasure in going through. 
 
 310. {Lord Elcho.) Is it not the case that at the 
 annual inspections of corps there are, in nine cases 
 out of ten, very many men who have not attended 
 eight battalion drills in the course of the year, but 
 who appear at the inspection ? — Surely ; but then I 
 sliould doubt whether there were any men who had 
 not attended drills of some sort. 
 
 311. Do you believe that you would have complete 
 efficiency in the corps if you had eight compulsory 
 battalion drills, and the men were obliged to go 
 through some sort of examination to show that they 
 were fit to be passed into the battalion drills ? — I 
 think it might work. 
 
 312. Do you think that efficiency might thereby 
 be insured, taking into account the intelligence of the 
 volunteers, and what you know of them ? — Speaking 
 generally, I should say yes. 
 
 313. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) "We have talked a good 
 deal of numbers compared with the efficiency of 
 small bodies ; do you think that any part or any pro- 
 portion of any such large bodies would be of any use 
 on an emergency unless they had gone through a fair 
 amount of musketry instruction ? — I should say no ; 
 unless a man can fire off his rifle he will have no 
 confidence in himself. 
 
 314. Is not that what we may consider in tlie 
 volunteer force as their peculiar tendency, and what 
 we ought to look to ? — Yes ; I think their main 
 qualification is to act as light troops. 
 
 315. {Lord Overstone.) Is it not the fact that any 
 young man who has gone thx'ough a moderate number 
 of the ordinary drills of the volunteer force obtains 
 through that discipline a certain habit of using his 
 rifle ? — That will depend very much upon the practice 
 of the corps. In my own corps no man is allowed to 
 fall in with a battalion until he has fired blank 
 cartridge. 
 
 316. What I want to ascertain is this, whether on 
 forming a volunteer regiment, although the atten- 
 dance at the drills may be irregular and incomplete, 
 still if there bo a certain amount of attendance, it 
 does not uecessarily involve, on the part of the indi-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEEU FOKCE IN GREAT BUITAhV. 
 
 27 
 
 vidual so attending, the acquisition of certain Iiabits 
 as to military movements and tlic handling of militiiry 
 instruments? — It depends veiy much upon the prac- 
 tice of the different regiments. 
 
 317. Is it not very desirable that attention sliould 
 be specially directed to that consideration ? — Ijnite so. 
 
 318. (Sir A. Campbell.) Would you make it 
 necessary, in addition to the eight battalion drills, 
 that they should pass through a course of musketry 
 instruction ? — I have rather overlooked that point, 
 but in my own regiment no man can fall into a bat- 
 talion until he can fire blank. 
 
 319. {Col. MacMtd-do.) That instruction would be 
 included in his 24 drills in the iirst year ? — Yes. I 
 ought to add lo the 24 drills, that he should be passed 
 into a battalion, and competent to use his rifle. 
 
 320. {Major-Ge/i. Eyre.) Is the inusketiy instruc- 
 tion necessary to passing into a battalion ? — No ; 
 tiring blank is. 
 
 321. {Sir A. Cawphcll.) By firing blank, do you 
 mean platoon exercise, or musketry instruction ? — 
 That is not compulsory. 
 
 322. Do you include position drills and such like 
 in your drills to constitute a man an effective ? — 
 They do, of course, in class firing and in regimental 
 firing under a competent man, if sent out by order. 
 
 323. {Lord Elcho.) What proportion of men has 
 gone through class firing ? — About two-thirds. 
 
 324. Do you find that the men who go through 
 class firing are regular attendants at drill ? — Not 
 always. 
 
 325. By whom is the musketry instruction given ? 
 — By the musketry instructor of the corps. 
 
 326. Is he an officer who does nothing else ? — Yes, 
 he is the captain of the company. 
 
 327. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Is he any expense to 
 your corps ? — No. 
 
 328. {Chairman.) Will you fiivour the Commis- 
 sion with your views as to the remedies for the 
 defects which yon have pointed out ? — Under the 
 head of cost I have already suggested that there 
 should be one uniform as a means of reducing the 
 cost, also that the number of the battalions should be 
 reduced, and for the remaining cost I would propose 
 that the Government should pay 1 /. per head for every 
 man present on parade. 
 
 329. What do you precisely mean by that ? — I 
 mean a man that is actually there for inspection. 
 
 330. Only on that day ? — I mean that he should 
 have been seen ; that there is a bona fide man 
 there, armed and equipped, who is to a certain 
 extent able to go through his drill ; he is worth, in 
 my opinion, 1/. 
 
 331. {Col. 3TacMurdo.) If ho comes only one day 
 in the year ? — If a man can go through an ordinary 
 field-day in a regiment without upsetting the regi- 
 ment, then he is j^ro tanto efficient, and he is worth a 
 certain sum of money. 
 
 332. According to your view, the 1/. per head 
 should be restricted to those men who were present 
 on the day of inspection ? — Quite so. 
 
 333. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) You mean a man 
 fully armed and accoutred, with every thing in good 
 order ? — Yes. 
 
 334. {Lord Elcho.) Is it not the case that on 
 parade you might have from many causes a great 
 many men such as clerks in offices absent whose 
 business occupations would prevent them from attend- 
 ing the inspections, and would you suggest any 
 means of meeting that ? — I consider it a point of 
 importance that there should be one day in the 
 year on which every volunteer should be able to 
 attend in his place, that there should be in fact a 
 volunteer's day upon which the whole force should be 
 turned out ; that there should be a national lioliday, 
 on which every man should take his jilace in the 
 ranks. I believe that to be a point of the utmost 
 importance. The general weakness of the present 
 volunteer movement is that they feel they are never 
 wanted, and I think that there ought to be in each 
 year a call from the country, and it ought to be 
 
 recognized that Ihey are wanted once a year, and Lord JlitJsiocIt, 
 
 that would be a day to which tiicy would all look _ 
 
 forward ; it would give them a soldier-like feeling "' ^^ '®''""" 
 and an rspril dr corps which I believe wotdd carry 
 theui througli the rest of the year. One of (he most 
 discouraging circumstances connected with the pre- 
 sent force to those who are interested in it is that 
 they never can get a regiment together. 
 
 335. (Chairman.) According to your proposition 
 if all the volunteers should be called together on one 
 particular day in the j'car, it would be impossible 
 that they should lie inspected ? — I think it might i)c 
 done by arrangement ; I think you might increas(^ 
 the number of inspectors by a plan whicli I would 
 propose. I think there should be one day in the 
 year in which it- sliould be imperative that every 
 volunteer should tako a part, and 1 would propose 
 that if a man has his equipment, his kna|)sack and 
 greatcoat, an additional 10s. should be given to the 
 commanding officer. I think that he would be worth 
 10s. more. Then with regard to the oi-ganization, 
 I think that brigade districts should be formed, and 
 that men should only be allowed to eidist in their 
 brigade district; and that in brigade districts already 
 existing, no new companies or battalions should bo 
 formed where less than 80 men per company were 
 present on parade, or less than 800 men ])er battalion. 
 I believe that the main fault of the force is that 
 there are too many battalions and too many com- 
 panies, and that you must apply stringent remedies 
 in order to get the force into proper condition. 
 
 336. (Lord Elcho.) You mean a minimum of 80 
 obtained by companies and battalions already exist- 
 ing ? — Yes, or in the case of a battalion applying for 
 two more companies, then the question would be, 
 were there 80 men per company at the last inspec- 
 tion. 
 
 337. {Chairman.) In the battalions already exist- 
 ing ? — Yes ; and that no company should be formed 
 with less than 60 men present, and no battalion 
 should be formed with less than 480 men present. 
 
 338. {3Iajor-Gen. Eyre.) For drill ?— Yes. 
 
 339. {Sir A. Campbell.) Are they to be inspected 
 before they are formed ? — Yes, of course, until fresh 
 companies were formed they would be borne as 
 supernumeraries on the strength of the other battalions 
 until they were sanctioned as a fresh battalion. 
 
 340. (Major-Gen. Eyre.) You mean over the 80 ? 
 — Yes ; supposing, for example, in this parish there 
 are 10 companies of 80 men each present, there might 
 be perhaps 200 other men who are volunteers, and if 
 they wish to be enrolled iu another battalion they 
 should be borne as supernumeraries on this battalion 
 here until they got 480, then they would be formed 
 into a separate battalion ; you must provide for the 
 men somewhere. 
 
 341. {Sir A. Campbell.) But they must be in- 
 spected before they can be enrolled ? — Yes ; then I 
 should recommend that the brigade districts should 
 be united under an officer of division. 
 
 342. You mean a military officer ? — An officer 
 appointed by the War Office ; I do not say neces- 
 sarily a military officer. 
 
 343. You mean that the divisions should consist of 
 an aggregate number of brigades ? — Yes. 
 
 344. {Lord Ilardinge.) The oflScer would be a 
 divisional general ? — Yes, he would be a sort of 
 referee ; when called out they would be under his 
 orders, he would not have very much to do with them, 
 but he would have the general superintendence of 
 them. 
 
 345. (Lord Elcho.) He would have the command 
 in the field ? — Yes. I do not know .that there is 
 anything further which I have to suggest. 
 
 346. (I^ord JIardinf/e.) You were going to say 
 something about the serjeant instructor to be paid 
 by the (joveriunent when the conijianies became 
 reduced ? — I should recommend that the Governniont, 
 where they have given a serjeant instructor, should 
 not take him away until the company has fallen off' 
 
 E 2
 
 28 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lord Radstoch. 
 27 May 18fj2. 
 
 to one liiilf the strength compared with what it was 
 formerly. 
 
 347. As long as the subdivision remained a sub- 
 division they should keep their Government Serjeant ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 348. {Lord Elcho.) Do you sec any way of getting 
 that one day in a year, because, although the Go- 
 vernment might order the volunteers to turn out on 
 such and such a day, how arc they to get the time 
 and liberty to go ? — I suppose it would be very easy; 
 there are" other holidays which exist by Act of Par- 
 liament. 
 
 349. {Lord ITardinrje.) When you say that they 
 should be assembled on one day specially appointed, 
 I presume you mean that there should be a review in 
 Hyde Park, and another review at Warwick or in 
 (he Midland counties, and another review in the 
 south-eastern district ? — Quite so. 
 
 350. {Lord Elcho.) Do you think that 'it would be 
 desirable that the expenses of the volunteers attend- 
 ing such reviews, and likewise the expenses of the 
 administrative companies in the rural districts at- 
 tending battalion drill should be borne by the Govern- 
 ment ? — It would be to a certain extent covered by 
 the 1/. 
 
 351. Do you look upon that as covering all those 
 items ? — Yes. 
 
 352. {Lord Ovcrstonc.) Doyou not think, consider- 
 ing the importance of retaining the essential character 
 of the volunteer force, that any pecuniary advantage 
 to be derived from the Government, if necessary, 
 would be more wisely and safely administered in the 
 way of paying certain incidental expenses, or part of 
 them, rather than by a direct capitation grant ? — I 
 think that the circumstances would be so very various 
 in different corps that no Government could lay 
 down any scheme. My principal expenses, as a town 
 corps, are for headquarters and practice grounds ; 
 those are the two main expenses ; but in country 
 corps those very often do not exist, for there are 
 ranges in gentlemen's parks, and they get some houses 
 lent to them for headquarters, and therefore they 
 would have no expenses of that sort. 
 
 353. Do not you think that the main head of ex- 
 pense would be either the expense of obtaining 
 good drill Serjeants, or the expense of obtaining good 
 shooting grounds with butts, and the appurtenances, 
 or the expense of conveyance to the place of general 
 assembly for battalion drill, and that in one or other 
 of those forms the subvention from the Government 
 might be applicable both to a town regiment and to 
 a country regiment ? — I think that the multiplicity 
 of the details would be so great that you could not 
 administer a fund better than in the way of a capita- 
 tion grant. 
 
 354. {I^ord Hardingel) In the case of a capitation 
 grant you would propose to leave that sum of money 
 to a regiment to be expended entirely at the discre- 
 tion of the commanding officer ? — Yes, accounting 
 as to how he spent it. 
 
 355. He would have to furnish to the War Office 
 a very accurate account of how the money had been 
 expended ? — He would pass his accounts and have 
 his regimental books to show. 
 
 356. You must recollect that it would be Govern- 
 ment money, and that he would have to account to 
 this office for every item of the money so spent ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 357. What security would the Government have 
 that this capitation grant was properly expended ? — 
 They would have security of two sorts ; first they 
 would have the direct vouchers for the expenditure 
 which would in my case, and in the great majority 
 of instances, be in lump sums, for instance, for the 
 butt or for headquarters ; and they would have that 
 indirect security which would be a far greater check, 
 the whole neighbourhood, who would know how the 
 whole amount was expended by the commanding 
 officer, and he might be compelled to publish his 
 accounts. 
 
 358. Take the first year in which this capitation 
 
 grant was made, what security would the Government 
 have that a considerable part of the grant was not 
 expended in an expensive band ? — The answer to 
 that is that I am not at all sure, that that might not bo 
 a good way of supplying the money, as the money 
 which went to pay the band would save payment by 
 the members, and their money would be applicable 
 to other purposes. 
 
 359. Do you think that the Government would 
 sanction any considerable expenditure in the difTerent 
 regiments for band purposes ? — I think that if they 
 can get volunteers they would pay very cheaply for 
 them at 1 1, or 30*. a head. 
 
 360. {Lord Elcho.) Supposing such a system as 
 you have pointed out were resorted to, the Govern- 
 ment paying so much per head, would it not be for 
 the Government to draw up certain heads, under 
 which that money must be expended, and under no 
 other, such as the custody of the arms, the drill 
 places, the conveyance to the drills, clothing and any- 
 thing of that kind, but restricting within certain 
 limits the way in which the money ought to 
 be expended ? — I think that that course might bo 
 adopted. 
 
 361. {Major Harcourt.) Do not you think that if 
 a money grant were made it would rather stop one 
 of our present sources of income, namely, the public 
 contributions ? — I do not think that the force can 
 really be efficient until it is almost entirely paid by 
 the Government ; one of the greatest taxes on the 
 volunteer force is having to raise money ; and I think 
 that it is far more weakening to the force to have to 
 attend to civil matters of that sort than the real dis- 
 cipline of the regiment. 
 
 362. {Lord Elcho.) Do you believe from your 
 knowledge of the state of the force that we can 
 reckon upon a permanent 10 per cent, upon our ex- 
 penditure from the public for the support of the 
 volunteer corps ? — No. 
 
 363. {Chairman.) Do you say that if this pro- 
 position were sanctioned of 1/. or 30*. per head that 
 you would not obtain any subscriptions whatever 
 "from the members of the corps ?— I think that in 
 certain places you might get them from those who 
 were most desirous to make their corps more comfort- 
 able, to give them a library, or other extra en- 
 couragement ; but if a corps were to depend at all 
 upon raising money outside from the public in general, 
 it would be I think a very great source of weakness 
 and tend to disgust the men more quickly than 
 anything else. 
 
 '364. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Have the contribu- 
 tions of the public fallen off from year to year ? — 
 I believe in a general sense they have. I happen to 
 have a special means of counteracting that by the 
 kindness of one or two individuals who take an 
 interest in it ; but, apart from that, there is no doubt 
 that it is more difficult to get in regular contri- 
 butions. 
 
 365. {Lord Ilardinge.) Do you apprehend that 
 3'our proposed capitation grant would alter the 
 character of the force ? — No. 
 
 366. Do you think that if the Government made a 
 capitation grant they would insist upon having the 
 force more under military control ?— I think that it 
 would be more desirable to have a more distinct 
 control, but it depends upon what you mean by 
 military. 
 
 367. I mean this : Suppose that brigade districts 
 were formed, and that the volunteers should be com- 
 manded by officers of the line, would that be accept- 
 able to the force ? — I believe myself that the policy 
 of the Government would be to get the best volunteer 
 officers they could, or at s^ny rate those who had 
 been in the volunteers. I do not mean that volunteer 
 officers alone should be appointed to brigades. 
 
 368. What should you say as to divisional com- 
 mands? — I think tliat, of course, at first you must select 
 officers for those commands in general, but after a 
 time I think it would be very desirable that officers
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 29 
 
 for divisional command should bo as much as possible 
 selected from those who have been brisjailiers. 
 
 369. {Lord Orcrstonc.) I presume you would teel 
 the force of the principle that has b(.'en alluded to, 
 namely, that in proportion as the Crovernmeut is 
 called upon to assist directly by a pecuniary K'''i"f! 
 the Goveruraent to a certain degree would feel a 
 corresponding obligation to exercise a more direct 
 control over the whole volunteer movement ? — Yes. 
 
 370. Looking at that fact, and not witii regard to 
 your own feelings as a commanding ollicer, anxious 
 principally for the ctiective discipline and efficiency 
 of your corps, but looking to the intlnence of such 
 interference by the Government upon the minds and 
 feelings of the men separately, do you think it would 
 be a safe procedure ? — I think it would be perfectly 
 safe for this reason, that the interference of the 
 Government would merely extend to the system, it 
 would fall upon the commanding officers and not 
 aifect the position of the men, it would be merely 
 matter of organization, and it would rest upon (hose 
 who were in charge of the force, the couunanding 
 officers and officers commanding brigades, and they 
 would be willing to submit to the control, having a 
 more recognized status given them. 
 
 371. (Lord Elcho.) You say that it would not fall 
 upon the men ; you know that at present the only hold 
 which the country has upon a volunteer is that he 
 has to give 14 days' notice, at the end of which he 
 may cease to be a volunteer ? — Yes. 
 
 372. Have you considered whether, in the event 
 of a further subvention from the state, it would be 
 advisable that the state should require some greater 
 security than it now has for the continued services 
 of those men, and that they should enlist, so to speak, 
 for a longer period than 14 days ? — I do not think 
 there would be any advantage in that unless you were 
 prepared at once to adopt a system of compulsion ; you 
 may have a man on your books and compel him to be 
 on them for six months, but there is no advantage 
 unless he attends ; you cannot compel him to attend, 
 you must either retain the volunteer system as a 
 thing which a man can enter into for amusement, or 
 love of his country, or you must make it compulsory 
 like the disembodied militia, and do it by ballot. 
 
 373. {Chnirman.) Suppose the ballot for the militia 
 were resorted to, you would then have some hold upon 
 the volunteer ? — I think that that would have a very 
 beneficial efl'ect. 
 
 374. You would not allow of any exemption for a 
 volunteer who was not an effective man ? — No. 
 
 375. {I^ord Elcho.^ Have you ever considered any 
 of the legal exemptions that might be extended to 
 volunteers as an inducement to them to volunteer ? 
 — I am not aware of any. 
 
 376. At the present moment, Serjeants are fur- 
 nished by Government, — do you find that, for the 
 allowance which they receive from the Government, 
 you can got first-rate men ? — No. 
 
 377. Have you been obliged to add to the govern- 
 ment allowance for that purpose ? — Yes. 
 
 378. Have you got gooil men now ? — Yes. 
 
 379. What extra pay do you give them ? — I give 
 them nearly about ten shillings a week extra. 
 
 380. To each serjeant ?— Yes. 
 
 381. At present you find practically that the pay 
 is insufficient ? — Yes. 
 
 382. Do you find that the adjutants are sufficiently 
 ]iaid ? — Practically I think so, the supply is so very 
 abundant. 
 
 383. Do you consider the in'csent system as to the 
 adjutants essential to the efficiency of the corps ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 384. {Chairman.) Have you to give any assistance 
 to the adjutant of your corps ? — No. 
 
 385. {Sir A. Camjibell.) Do you think the supply 
 of well qualified officers for adjutants is sufficient ? — ■ 
 I can hardly judge of that beyond general rumour. 
 
 386. You have not been aware that officers who 
 would otherwise have been ready to accept such 
 
 27 Miiy 1802, 
 
 positions have declined them on account of the small- ■^'"''^ liudstock. 
 ness of the pay ? — No. 
 
 387. (Major-de/f. E)/rc..) You have spoken of a 
 want of control over the rifles, can you suggest any 
 bettor means of controlling them ? — Y(>s ; one of the 
 reasons of tiuit is not having brigade districts ; if 
 there were brigade districts there might be a brigade 
 armourer; there is no check upon the commanding 
 officers now. 
 
 388. {Lord Elc/io.) Your oflicers, I believe, go 
 through a general course of instruction, and are at- 
 taciicd, every one of them, to regiments of tlie line ? 
 — Nearly every one of them. 
 
 389. {Lord Ifardirif/e.) Would yon have a brigade 
 staff V — Yes ; but I should insist upon efficiency ; 
 the brigadier .should be responsible for the efficiency 
 of those under him. 
 
 390. Are you aware that the staff officers of the 
 regulars are now appointed after going through a 
 course of study at the staft' college ? — Yes. 
 
 391. How could you ever expect to obtain such 
 competence in volunteer oiUcers ? — I do not think 
 you would get it cither from volunteer officers or 
 from regular officers. I think that regular officers 
 who were competent to pass through the staff college 
 would obtain employment on the staff of the army. 
 
 392. When you say that you would have volunteer 
 oflicers, that is based upon the assumption, is it not, 
 that the Government could not furnish you with 
 military men to fill those appointments, if such 
 appointments were necessary ? — I think that it would 
 be indispensable that all staff appointments should be 
 of those who had been volunteers, making the officer 
 commanding either the brigade or the division 
 responsible for their efficiency. 
 
 393. {Col. 3hwMurd,o.) Should they be paid?— No. 
 
 394. How could they ])erform their duties ? — In 
 the same way as any other volunteer officers. 
 
 395. But these would be staff appointments ? — A 
 man would be in the same position ; he would not 
 have so much to do as a field officer ; he would only 
 be called out perhaps one or two days in the year. 
 
 396. He would not have to accompany the divi- 
 sional commander in his inspections ? — He might do 
 that ; it would not entail ujjon him much trouble. 
 
 397. But it would entail upon him very great ex- 
 pense ? — So does the command of a regiment. 
 
 398. {Lord Hardingc.) Do you think that any 
 volunteer officer would qualify himself to go through 
 a severe examination such as would make him com- 
 petent to fulfil the duties of deputy quartermaster- 
 general to a division of the force ? — I think tliat a 
 modified course might Ije proposed, and I believe that 
 many would qualify for that and go throirj;li it. 
 
 399. {Col. MacMurdo.) Unpaid ?— Yes. 
 
 400. (Sir A. Campbell.) Is this divisional brigade 
 system to supersede or to go along with the present 
 system of inspection ? — I sliould say to sujierscdc it ; 
 I think that the assistant inspector of volunteers 
 might be the assistant adjutant-general of a division : 
 but lot me be understood, I have been speaking of 
 the brigade staff. 
 
 401. (L^ord Elcho.) Have you any paid clerk, or 
 orderly clei'k, for the transaction of the non-military 
 business of the corps ? — I have a secretary. 
 
 402. Is he paid ?— Yes. 
 
 403. By whom is the financial part of the business 
 done ; who receives the subscriptions ? — He does. 
 
 404. What do you pay him ? — 50/. a year. 
 
 405. For those purposes your Serjeants are at 
 present unavailable ? — Yes. 
 
 406. If they were permitted to do that part of the 
 business, would their duties as instructors permit of 
 their performing both duties? — I think, speaking 
 generally, it would be unwise to put them in such a 
 position. 
 
 407. Unwise ; upon what ground ? — I think it 
 would be a very great temptation to men in that 
 class if they had to handle money ; or it would 
 necessitate such a close supervision as would lead to 
 more trouble than the thing was worth. 
 
 E 3
 
 30 
 
 MimiTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COJIMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 /dv? Itiidi'iock. 408. The pay-serjeant of every regiment of the 
 line handles money, does he not ? — The daily pay. 
 
 409. (Major Harcourt.) Is there any other reason 
 wliy you prefer a eapitation prant for the volunteers 
 to any other mode of assistance further than this, 
 that you think it would complicate the accounts less 
 in this office ? — I think it would be impossible for 
 this office to frame any schedule of payments to 
 include all the various points. 
 
 410. That is your only reason for preferring that 
 mode of payment ? — Yes. 
 
 411. {Sir A. Cfimpbell.) You are of opinion that 
 one corps would require one thing, and another corps 
 another ? — Yes. 
 
 412. (Lord 0rersf07jc.) Are there not some three 
 or four or five heads of subvention on the part of the 
 Government, under one or other of which the require- 
 ments of the volunteer corps might be put ? — To a 
 certain extent ; but the main head would bo uniform 
 in many cases, the uniform being the thing generally 
 that would be most expensive. Suppose the Govern- 
 ment give me 100 suits of clothing, I fit them on to the 
 men, and at the end of the j^ear 50 men go, and you 
 would not get the next set of volunteers to take the 
 clothes of those 50 men ; that would be one of the 
 main items of expense. Besides, if clothing were 
 given, men would never take proper care of their 
 clothes. 
 
 413. (Chairman.) Have you any further remarks 
 to make ? — I can sum up the impressions that I have 
 on my own mind in this way, that the vitality of the 
 force is its military character, and if it is attempted 
 to make the force popular and to increase its numbers 
 it will deter all those who are most useful and most 
 energetic from taking any further part in it ; and 
 although it may appear to be a dangerous experiment 
 to impress a decidedly military character upon 
 it, yet that it will strengthen the hands of those 
 who are the life and soul of the thing, namely, 
 those who have real military tastes and instincts ; 
 and in order to carry out any organized military 
 system it is perfectly indispensable to have a brigade 
 staff which should have the power of enforcing 
 auniform discipline, and uniform modes of proceeding. 
 At the present time, the weakness of the force arises 
 entirely from there being no power to give direction 
 and concentration to the efforts of those who are 
 engaged in it ; and unless some distinct authority is 
 created, which is positive and easily applicable, a 
 power by which to enforce auniform system, the force 
 will be in its present state, each commanding officer 
 doing what is right in his own eyes and all the best 
 
 of the men becoming disgusted and withdrawing from 
 the force. 
 
 414. (Lord Overstone.) Assuming that a direct 
 capitation grant was considered objectionable and was 
 not sanctioned, can you state to the Commission in 
 what other more indirect form a subvention from the 
 Government would be rendered most effective in your 
 corps ? — I suppose under two or three heads. 
 
 415. Will you state what those two or three heads 
 would be in your judgment ? — Quarters and shooting 
 grounds would be two of them. 
 
 416. Would you desire any aid in the form of 
 a facility for obtaining drill Serjeants ? — I do not 
 know that there is anything more necessary on that 
 point. 
 
 417. Or aid to defray a portion of the expenses in- 
 curred at reviews or at the divisional drill ? — I think 
 that would be a very proper subject of expenditure. 
 
 418. Do you think that if in two or three points 
 that sort of present partial expense was relieved it 
 would go to any material extent to overcome the 
 difficulties you have alluded to under the head of 
 expense ? — I do not think that it would be felt ; for 
 instance, take the case of paying a man's expenses to 
 go to reviews, they do not grudge that a bit ; they are 
 willing to pay that. 
 
 419. That is not one of the forms in which, in the 
 case of your regiment, a subvention would be desirable. 
 What are the points as to which, according to your 
 experience of your own regiment, a subvention in an 
 indirect form would be effective ? — Drill grounds, 
 head-quarters, rifle ranges, care of arms. 
 
 420. (Lord Elcho.) Have you any armourer that 
 
 you pay 
 
 -Yes. 
 
 421. How much a year?— 10«. a week, besides 
 Government pay. 
 
 422. ( Chairman.) Do you mean an armourer who 
 takes care of the arms, or who repairs them ? — lie 
 does all the small repairs. 
 
 423. (Lord Elcho.) You have mentioned repairs of 
 arms, ranges, and head-quarters ? — Yes. 
 
 424. Suppose the Government look upon itself the 
 payment of those three heads, to what extent could 
 you then reduce your subscription ? — I cannot say off 
 hand. 
 
 425. Would you be able to reduce it one-half ? — 
 Barely. 
 
 426. In the event of 3'our own suggestion being 
 adopted, which is a capitation grant of 1/. a head, 
 would that en.able you to do away wholly with your 
 subscriptions ? — I think it would. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Adjourned to Friday next at half-past twelve o'clock. 
 
 Friday, 30tli May 1862. 
 
 PEESENT ; 
 
 Lleut.-Col. 
 
 Madend 
 
 n/Maclcrd. 
 
 Viscount EVEESLET. 
 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Viscount Haedinge. 
 Lord Elcho. 
 
 Lord OVEESTONE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttei.ot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. 
 Licutenant-General Sir G. 
 Major-General Etee. 
 Colonel I\lAcMnEDO. 
 Major Haecouet. 
 
 Campbell. 
 
 A. Wetheeall. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chaie. 
 Lieut.-Colonel Macleod op Macleod examined. 
 
 427. (Chnirmrni.) I believe you command the First 
 Middlesex Engineer Volunteer Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 428. It consists of eight companies, with 100 men 
 to a company ? — Yes. 
 
 429. When was that corps formed ? — One compan)- 
 was formed in January' 1 860 ; there were thiee more 
 .added in the j'ear I860; two more were added early 
 iu 1861, and two more in November 1861 ; eight com- 
 panies in all.. 
 
 430. How many members have you at pi'cscnt on 
 the muster roll ? — Including the baud and all ranks, 
 724. 
 
 431. Of what classes is your corps composed? — 
 About three -fourths are mechanics and artizans; the 
 remainder are draughtsmen, clerks, architects, and 
 engineers. 
 
 432. What is the present state of your corjis with 
 regard to its efficiency in company and battalion drill?
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP TIIK VOT.UNTEKll FORCK IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 31 
 
 — I tliink, upou the whole, it is satisfactory. Each 
 company has ouo day in eacli week set apart for com- 
 pany drill, aud the corps devotes another to battalion 
 drill. Upon tho whole, I consider the state of the 
 corps satisfactory, and I hope that the Inspector will 
 think it is so when he comes to inspect tho corps. 
 Being engineers, however, our attention is not wholly 
 directed to company and battalion drill. 
 
 433. Your corps, I apprehend, receives special in- 
 struction in engineering, in addition to tho ordinary 
 battalion drill ? — Yes. 
 
 434. I suppose that instruction is principally given 
 to companies ? — It is given to the whole corps. We 
 have classes in lield works. A class meets every Wed- 
 nesday for instruction in throwing up batteries and 
 breastworks of difll'rent kinds ; other classes for 
 pontoouiug, for barrel piering, for loopholing walls 
 and laying ])latforms, and a variety of other exercises 
 of that description are in course of formation. I wish 
 to attbrd to each man in the corps the opportunity 
 of attending three days in the week, one for company 
 drill, one for battalion drill, and a third for engineer- 
 ing works. 
 
 435. Do you find that there is a great desire on the 
 part of the men for this sort of instruction ? — Yes ; 
 I iind that the attendance on company and battalion 
 drill slackens when the men think they know all that 
 we can teach them, and the same remark will jiro- 
 bably apply hereafter to engineering works. But 
 whenever there is anything new to teach I have plenty 
 of applicants for admission to the class. There is no 
 difficulty in getting a good attendance when there is 
 anything new in the way of instruction to be given. 
 I should mention, perhaps, that many of the mechanics 
 aud artizans attend drill very zealously. I think 
 they seem to consider drill more as an amusement for 
 the evening, and a relaxation after the work of the 
 day, than as a duty. 
 
 436. Then the drill is really their relaxation ? — 
 Many appear to me to consider it so. 
 
 437. VVill you state to the Commissioners what the 
 financial position of your corps is? — The financial posi- 
 tion of my corps is satisfactory. In order to furnish 
 the best information to the Commissioners, I have 
 brought with me the balance sheet for 1860, which 
 was submitted to the first annual general meeting ; 
 it is in manuscript. For the year 1861 a printed 
 balance sheet was prepared, and submitted to a meet- 
 ing in February last. I have brought with me several 
 copies of that for the information of the Commis- 
 sioners (kandi/iff in the same). 
 
 438. Can you give the Commissioners, in round 
 number's, a statement of the receipts and expenses in 
 each year ? — In 1860 tho receipts from the subscrip- 
 tions of members amounted to 4.52/. 1.5*. 7d. We 
 have had no assistance in any other shape, with the 
 exception of a theatrical entertainment last year, by 
 which we cleared upwards of 70/. That theatrical 
 entertainment was given at Camden House, Mr. 
 Woolley, the owner of it, being an honorary member 
 of our corps ; we meant to have repeated it this year, 
 but the theatre was burnt down. 
 
 439. Do you include the honorary members ? — 
 Yes, but there are very few of them. As I have stated, 
 the receipts for 1860 were 452/. 15s. 7d., and the 
 expenditure in that year was 204/. 14.?. 9d. This 
 statement does not include either the band fund or the 
 uniform account. Early in tho year 1860 the late 
 Lord Herbert told me that he thought Volunteer 
 Engineers should be as much as possible of the .same 
 class as the Royal Engineers. We had then 25 per 
 cent, of artizans and mechanics, and he wished me to 
 recruit in that direction up to 75 per cent. I thought 
 it would be necessary in order to get such members 
 to allow them to pay for their uniforms by in- 
 stalments. I therefore started by doing so with three 
 companies, and the result was that we advanced a 
 sum of 1,200/. for uniforms, and received payment 
 from the members by instalments. That I have kept 
 separate from this account, and therefore the receipts 
 for 1860, of 452/. 15*. 7c/., in subscriptions of mem- 
 
 bers, and tho expenditure of 204/. lis, 9d., are 
 exclusive of tho band and uniform. 
 
 440. And what you lent for uniforms ? — Yes. In 
 1861 the receipts from members were 454/. 8s., aud 
 the expenditure 205/. Os. 6d. 
 
 441. What were the principal items of expenditure 
 included in that amount ? — In 1861 it included charges 
 of 49/. Is. for drill, and 21/. 3,*. 6d. for instruction in 
 fortification. Wo ha<l to purchase a quantity of wood 
 to make fascines and gabions. 
 
 442. Was nothing of that sort furnished from 
 Woolwich ? — No ; we did not ask for wood. It was 
 not in any list furnished Iroin the Wai- Office, and I 
 did not think it would have been gianted. 
 
 443. Did you receive any tools from Woolwich ? — 
 Yes ; wo have had sjiadcs, ])ickaxes, a platform, and 
 various other things supplied to us. The War OIHco 
 has dealt liberally with us, and will, I hope, continue 
 to do so. Of course we .^hall want many things to 
 carry on the special instruction of tho corps. Other 
 items of expense were the cleaning of arms and 
 attending armoury, also advertisements and printing. 
 The whole amount was 203/. Os. 6rf. 
 
 444. How much of that was expended in tlu; hii'e 
 of a field for earthworks and that sort of drill ? — 
 For the years 1860 and 1861 we had no rent to pay, 
 having the advantage of a piece of ground near us. 
 Prince Albert also gave the corps the temporary uso 
 of a piece of ground behind the conservatory in tho 
 Horticultural Gardens, for the purpose of throwing 
 up earthworks, and this, for the first two years, pre- 
 vented the necessity of our hiring any place. But 
 our expenses will be considerably increased this year. 
 We shall have to pay 40/. for a field that we have 
 engaged, to throw up earthworks in, and we shall 
 have to pay 100/. for a house and garden which wo 
 have taken as headquarters in our neighbourhood, 
 that garden being used also for engineering purposes. 
 We are now making a half sunken battery in it, on a 
 reduced scale. We also pay 40/. a year for the use, 
 two days a week, of a ritle range at Ealing. On 
 Tuesdays and Fridays we have the use of that range. 
 
 445. Then your future expenses will amount to 
 about 200/. a year more than your past expenses ? — 
 Yes ; I estimate that the receipts from members for 
 this year will be 500/., and I reckon that the expendi- 
 ture will be 450/., chiefly arising from those addi- 
 tional expenses to which I have referred, — a field to 
 work in, a rifle range, and headquarters. 
 
 446. How are these funds procured ; do your officers 
 pay a higher amount of subscription than the men ? 
 — The officers pay one guinea ])er year. 
 
 447. Only one guinea ? — That is all. 
 
 448. Is that independent of their subscription to 
 the band ? — Yes ; they pay one guinea a year to the 
 band, and one guinea a year subscription. The mem- 
 bers who are not mechanics and artizans pay one 
 guinea. Mechanics and artizans pay 3d. a week, or 
 13s. a year. 
 
 449. The privates in the corps pay 13s. a year ? — 
 Not all ; clerks and others who are privates pay one 
 guinea. 
 
 450. Upon the whole you anticipate 500/. next 
 year ? — Yes. 
 
 451. And your expenses you expect will be rather 
 more than 400/. ? — £450 ; we shall have a balance of 
 about 50/., I hope, when all is paid. 
 
 452. The ground for practising earthworks is as 
 essential to a corps of engineers as rifle practice 
 ground to a corps of iniantiy ? — Quite so ; but wo 
 are obliged to have both. 
 
 453. Your expenses have been greater in proportion 
 than the expenses of an ordinary corps ? — Wc have 
 greater requirements. A serious difficulty has been 
 to find a suitable place near enough "to break ground 
 in, for the builders in our neighlwurhood would not 
 let us go below 2 feet, and that for a sunken battery 
 would be insufficient. 
 
 454. With regard to the clothing and accoutrements 
 of your corps, three of the comi)anies have been 
 clothed as you have described, — you have advanced a, 
 
 E 4
 
 32 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE OOMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 sum of money as a lojui to a member to provide Lis 
 own uniform ; I presume that all the other members 
 have provided their uniforms without any assistance? 
 —Yes. 
 
 455. Of what does the uniform consist?— Wc have 
 a cloth scarlet tunic, a liusby, a blouse or serge coat, 
 one of which I have brought here as a specimen 
 {producing the same) ; it is a capital dress to work 
 in, and throws off the rain, and you can put any 
 amount of clothing underneath it in cold weather. 
 That is the ordinary undress blouse. 
 
 456. I understand that your uniform consists of a 
 dress jacket and trowsers, an undress blouse, an 
 undress cap, and leggings ? — Yes ; and accoutre- 
 ments. 
 
 457. What do the accoutrements cost ? — They cost 
 13s. ; the scarlet cloth tunic costs 1/. 6s. Zd. ; the 
 busby costs 12s. 6d. ; the scarlet serge blouse costs 
 12s. 6rf. ; the accoutrements cost 13s. ; the trowsers, 
 with red stripe, cost 14s. ; the leggings cost 7s. ; 
 .and the cap costs 5s., making 4/. 10s. 3rf. That is 
 the sum that we now give ; when we paid for those 
 companies to which I have referred it was at a larger 
 figure ; we paid at the rate of 51. 3s. for a member's 
 full dress outfit when those three companies were first 
 formed. 
 
 458. Have the men any great coat ? — No. 
 
 459. Or knapsack ? — No. 
 
 460. Has any part of the money which you ad- 
 vanced to the men for the purchase of their uniforms 
 been paid back? — In 1860 and 1861 we received 
 back about 1,000/. out of 1,200/. ; we advanced, say 
 in round numbers, 1,200/., and received back 1,000/. 
 There is, therefore, still 200/. outstanding ; I expect 
 to receive back at least 100/. of that, but we shall 
 probably lose, as several of the men have died, and 
 there are some defaulters, 100/. upon our advance. 
 
 461. You calculate upon losing 100/. upon the 
 whole amount ? — Yes ; I think that that is probable. 
 
 462. Do you find that there are many arrears in 
 the annual subscriptions ? — I believe that for the 
 two years ending the 31st December 1861 the arrears 
 were" between 50/. and 60/. from the whole corps. I 
 cannot say what they are now. 
 
 463. You have stated that the members subscribe 
 Zd. a week ; how is that collected ? — The captains of 
 companies collect the money through the Serjeants, 
 each of whom has a squad under his special charge, 
 and at the end of each quarter they hand the amount 
 over to the treasurer. 
 
 464. In the prosperous state of the finances in your 
 corps, do you think it requires any aid from the 
 public ? — I think that although the present financial 
 state of the corps is on the whole satisfactory, and I 
 have no reason to complain of the manner in which 
 the subscriptions are paid, or to suppose that the 
 members will discontinue their payments, I do think 
 that the subscription falls heavily upon many of 
 the men, and my own opinion is, if the Commission 
 could see its way to recommending that a payment 
 should be made from the public purse, that the 
 members ought to be released from their subscrip- 
 tions altogether. 
 
 465. Do you mean not to receive any subscriptions 
 from the members of the corps ? — I think that the 
 members of the corps should be released from their 
 subscriptions of a guinea and 13s. I think that if 
 they were released from those subscriptions upon 
 their having attended a certain number of drills in 
 the year, it would have a I'avourable effect upon the 
 attendance and upon the corps generally. At present 
 members give both time and money. I think they 
 would freely give their time, if the expenses were 
 defrayed by the public. Supposing that 1/. was the 
 sum proposed to be given per head, I am sure that 
 the men would, for the sake of keeping up the corps, 
 gladly attend any number of drills that might be 
 required. 
 
 466. Your suggestion is that 1/. per head should 
 be given for those men who had attended a certain 
 number of driUs. I jjresume you mean battalion 
 
 drills as well as company drills ? — Yes, I mentioned 
 the sum of 1/., because I think it would enable me 
 to carry on the corps in a satisfactory and efficient 
 way, without trenching too heavily upon the men's 
 resources. 
 
 467. Supposing that this aid was given by the 
 Government, do you think that a greater .amount of 
 discipline could be insisted upon, or that it would 
 be desirable to give the force a more military 
 character ? — I should be inclined to leave that as it 
 is at present. I think that volunteers value freedom, 
 and in my opinion it would be injurious to the 
 volunteer force to give it a more military character 
 than it has now. I find men sometimes who belong 
 to the mechanic and artizan class objecting to take 
 the oath of allegiance, not because they are not most 
 loyal men, but because they fancy that it binds them 
 more than they like to be bound ; and I am quite 
 sure that the power of resigning after a fortnight's 
 notice is very important indeed to the volunteer force. 
 I do not think that it would be desirable to give the 
 force a more military character than it has. I would 
 not increase the number of the drills. 
 
 468. Supposing that things remain as they are, and 
 no aid is given by the Government, do you anticipate 
 any diminution in your numbers or any falling oti' in 
 the efficiency of your corps ? — No, I do not. I think 
 that we might hope to carry on as we have done 
 hitherto ; a number would resign, but we should have 
 others coming in. I think that the corps could be 
 kept up as it is at present. We are not diminishing 
 in numbers. 
 
 469. I presume that your corps is not recruited in 
 any particular district ? — It is reciuited from all parts 
 of the metropolis, but chiefly in my own neighbour- 
 hood ; there are, however, some from other parts 
 of London, who have probably some special reason 
 for connecting themselves with an engineer corps. 
 
 470. Do you think that any advantage would be 
 gained by limiting the number of corps in London ? — 
 I think it would be very undesirable to increase the 
 number of corps, except under very special circum- 
 stances. I can mention one case in support of this 
 opinion. Not very long ago a gentleman had under- 
 taken to establish a corps of odd-fellows, and he came 
 to one of my captains and told him what he was about 
 to do. My captain said, "But this is not working for 
 " the advantage of the volunteer force generally, for 
 " you will take men from other corps." He said, " Yes, 
 " l)ut my object is to get up a corps ; however, you 
 " need not be alarmed, for I shall only take three of 
 " your men ; there are only three odd-fellows in your 
 " company." The captain said, '-But you will get men 
 " from other corps." He said, " Yes, and I shall get 
 " up a large corps very shortly." I am happy to say 
 that corjis has not yet been established, and I hope it 
 never will. I mention it just to point out that there 
 are persons desirous of increasing the number of corps 
 for their own objects, and to increase the number of 
 the corps unduly will, I believe, have a very preju- 
 dicial effect ; and therefore I think there ought to be 
 great care on the part of the authorities not to sanc- 
 tion the establishment of any new corps. It occurs 
 to me, that if the Government would decide what 
 should be the maximum of the force, a check would 
 at once be given to the jjresent objectionable facilities 
 of entering it. At present there is almost a system of 
 bidding for men to enter corps. I believe there are 
 persons who get together a considerable innnbor of 
 volunteers, and then go and offer them to different 
 corps. There is a desire on the part of those corps 
 to get those volunteers. I think that that is an 
 objectionable system, and I think that to lessen the 
 facility of becoming a volunteer would create a whole- 
 some desire to belong to a corps into which only meri- 
 torious persons were admitted. 
 
 471. Have you taken your corps to any divisional 
 or brigade field days ? — Yes, I find that the corps like 
 to avail themselves of every opportunity that offers 
 for joining with other corps, and I think that although 
 they like to go for amusement and relaxation, yet I
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 r^*} 
 
 tliink that they like to go for instruction also. My 
 opinion is that field d.ays, say of 2,000 or 3,000 men, 
 are most usefid and instructive ; ;ind altiiough my 
 own men would be very sorry to be left out of such a 
 day as Brighton or Wimbledon, and that, in short, 
 they would all wish if possible to go, still, I think, 
 they would like better, as affording more instruction, 
 a field day when there were perhaps 2,000 or 3,000 
 men only. 
 
 472. Have you found that after attending these 
 field days, early in the year especially, the attendance 
 at the ordinary battalion drills has been rather more 
 slack ? — Since Brighton, I think it has been. The 
 last three battalion drills that I have had were attended, 
 the first by 120 men, the second by 140, and the third 
 by 160. Now that is rather under the usual number. 
 I think there has been a smaller attendance since 
 Brighton. 
 
 473. You arc of opinion that it would be an advan- 
 tage to retain those brigade and divisional field days, 
 and especially that they would bo of still greater ad- 
 vantage if they could be held in the latter part of the 
 year ? — I think it would be so ; but there are some 
 difficulties in the way. Easter Monday and Whit 
 Monday fall early in the year, and those are the two 
 great holidays for working men. 
 
 474. {Col. 31acMurdo.) Have you got a drill slied? 
 —Yes. 
 
 475. Will you state the dimensions and the cost of 
 that drill shed ? — The drill shed was erected from a 
 design by Captain Fowke. It is 90 feet long by 40 
 feet wide, and it cost 69Z. 1 9s. M. 
 
 476. Did you buy all the materials ? — Yes. 
 
 477. Is it the same in construction as the annexe at 
 the Kshibition ? — Yes, it is. 
 
 478. Is it well adapted for volunteer corps gene- 
 rally ? — Admirably, I think. Captain Fowke was 
 obliging enough to give the design to our corps, and 
 we have had several applications from other corps for 
 the plan and specification, so that, selling it as we 
 have done at a guinea a piece, we have realized a 
 little sum for the band fund, I believe 8 or 10 
 guineas. 
 
 479. {Lord Elcho.) Have you any regular system 
 of drill commencing with setting-up drill and going 
 on to battalion drill ? — Yes. 
 
 480. Will you be good enough to describe your 
 system ? — We have setting-up drills in the spring ; 
 a setting-up drill for the officers is going on now. 
 On several Tuesdays and Fridays lately there has 
 been an officers' drill under the major ; I have been 
 in the ranks myself, and on those occasions the atten- 
 dance has been very satisfactory. 
 
 481. The oflicers' setting-up drills ? — Yes. 
 
 482. How many drills do you require your men to 
 attend ; is there any fixed number ? — No. 
 
 483. Have they to pass through those setting-up 
 drills before they are passed into the battalion drills ? 
 — We have not been very particular as to that ; some 
 men take a longer time to learn their duties than 
 others. I have passed them into the battalion when 
 they were considered by the captains of their com- 
 panies fit for it. 
 
 484. Supposing they were so passed into the bat- 
 talion, how many drills in the battalion should you 
 think sufficient from your knowledge of the volun- 
 teers to make them as efficient as you could expect or 
 desire them to be ? — If they attend well on company 
 drills, 1 should think that six or eight battalion drills 
 would be quite ample. 
 
 485. You have stated that the attendance of your 
 men at battalion drills has fallen off since the 
 Brighton field day, and that it was on diflfcrent days, 
 120, 140, and 160 ?— Yes. 
 
 486. That was below the average ? — Yes. 
 
 487. You have stated the strength of your regi- 
 ment to be 724 ? — Yes. 
 
 488. From which you must deduct 60 for the 
 band ? — ^Yes. 
 
 489. What is the ordinary attendance at an ordinary 
 battalion parade ? — About 250. 
 
 490. Can you reckon permanently on more than 
 one-tliird of your regiment over appearing at an 
 ordinary battalion parade ? — No, faking (iOO as our 
 strength in round numbers, I should ncjt ex|i('ct that 
 at an ordinary liattalion parade we should have more 
 than 200 or 250. 
 
 491. How many of your men have received mus- 
 ketry instruction ? — About 150. 
 
 492. Have they gone through class firing ? — No ; 
 I should not think that above 10 have passed thiough 
 class firing. We have only had our range about two 
 months. 
 
 493. Out of those 724 men, including the band, not 
 above 10 have actually gone through their class 
 firing ? — No. 
 
 494. In three years ? — We have had no range, 
 and we have been unable to diri'ct oiu- attention to 
 shooting. 
 
 495. Was that in consequence of not having funds 
 to procure a range, or fi-oni the impossibility of find- 
 ing a range ? — It was the impossibility of finding a 
 range. For some time I directed the whole of my 
 attention to getting a rifle range on Wandsworth 
 Common. Lord Spencer was kind enough to give 
 nie a lease of the ground, but I met with so much 
 opposition on the part of the inhabitants there that 
 I was obliged at last, although very i-oluctantly, to 
 give it up. We still have that ground leased to us 
 by Lord Spencer, and we propose during the summer 
 to use it for engineering purposes ; but as to ever 
 having a range upon it, I am afraid that that must 
 be given up as impossible. 
 
 496. Supposing that you could have had that 
 ground, and had erected a range upon it, how would 
 you have erected it ? Would the funds of the corjis 
 have enabled you to do it ? — No ; we proposed that 
 the butt should have been erected by the officers of 
 the corps, who were each to subscribe a certain sum, 
 according to their rank. It would have cost us 800/. 
 
 497. That would have been a special extra sub- 
 scription ?• — Yes. 
 
 498. And which could have been in no way met by 
 the ordinary annual subscriptions ? — No. 
 
 499. At present you hire a range at Ealing ; is 
 there not another range that you hire for one day in 
 the week ? — Yes ; there is another range that we 
 hire for one day in the week, and that range belongs 
 to the London Scottish. I omitted to mention it, 
 because that range is only used by one company of 
 my corps, namely, the Wandsworth company, the 
 members of which find Wimbledon more convenient 
 than Ealing. 
 
 500. There is a certain rent paid for that range ; 
 I believe 25/. a year ? — Yes. 
 
 501. Does that come out of the funds of the corps, 
 or is that found by the company that uses it ? — That 
 is paid for by the company that uses it. 
 
 502. How is it paid ? — It is done in this way, — 
 that company, and another company also, make their 
 own financial arrangements ; they pay the corps one- 
 fourth of the whole subscriptions, and retain three- 
 fourths for local expenses. 
 
 503. So that it does come out of the funds of the 
 corps ? — Yes. 
 
 504. You receive less from those companies than 
 from any of the others ? — Yes ; but that does not 
 affect ni}' calculation with regard to the 500/. ; that 
 500/. will include one-fourth of the subscriptions of 
 the two outlying companies. 
 
 505. {Sir A. Campbell.) And one-fourth only ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 506. In fact your total subscriptions, including the 
 full subscriptions of those companies, would be more 
 than that ? — Yes, it would be 500/., plus three-fourths 
 of the subscriptions from the two outlying conijianies. 
 
 507. ( Viscount Hnrdinije.) Do you notconsiderwith 
 regard to your corps, that your speciality is engi- 
 neering, and would you not lay greater stress on their 
 proficiency in throwing up earthworks than you 
 would upon rifle shooting ? — Certainly ; but I find 
 that the men are disposed to like shooting. In fact, 
 
 P 
 
 Z,ieul.-Col. 
 
 MarUud 
 uf MacUud. 
 
 30 Miiv 18G2.
 
 u 
 
 MINUTES OP EVIDENO'J TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.-Col. the difficulty under whicli this corps labours is, that 
 
 Macleod their attentiou has to be directed to so many things. 
 
 ,)/■ Macleod. q^. honorary colonel, Sir Jolm Burgoyne, said, "First 
 
 u.^\^ i*ri '• be soldiers," and we have done the best we could 
 dOMajMbb.. ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^l^.^^^_ ,jj^^^ ^^j^ j^g^ "Go in for 
 
 ■• engineering." Then we have shooting, and in short 
 I am°obliged to ask the members to give three days a 
 week, and even that is not enough. 
 
 508. {Lord Elcho.) Do you send any men to 
 Wimbledon ? — We shall send eight men, one for each 
 company. 
 
 509. Who have gone through the musketry course? 
 — Yes. 
 
 510. Do you believe that if you had an available 
 range open it would be a source of attraction to 
 the men of your corps, and enough to keep it up ? — ■ 
 Yes ; our present difficulty is, that we have only been 
 able to get the use of a range ou Tuesdays and 
 Fridays ; Saturday, however, would be a better day 
 for the men, and I fear a very large proportion of 
 them will never be able to shoot. 
 
 511. What is the distance from headquarters? — 
 We go by railway, and reckoning by time, it takes 
 an hour to go from headquarters to the range. 
 
 512. What is the fare ? — Sixpence there and back. 
 
 513. Every time that one of your men goes out 
 to shoot it costs him sixpence ? — Yes. 
 
 514. How are the expenses incident to attending 
 brigade field days borne ? — Every man pays his own 
 railway fare. 
 
 515. Nothing is found for him ? — No. 
 
 516. Nothing from the funds of the corps goes to 
 the band ? — No, the band fund is separate. 
 
 517. Is that a compulsory payment ? — It is compul- 
 sory, inasmuch as the members, at a general meeting, 
 passed a resolution that every member should contri- 
 bute half-a-crown to the band fund, and that the offi- 
 cers should contribute a guinea. 
 
 518. So that, practically, the subscription of each 
 member is 15*. 6f/. ? — Yes. 
 
 519. Do the guinea and the 2s. Gd. form a sufficient 
 fund ?— Yes. One hundred and thirty pounds is about 
 the annual cost of our band, and the half-crown and 
 the guinea pretty nearly pay it. 
 
 520. Have you had any difficulty in obtaining the 
 1 3.?. from the men ? — As I have said before, I think 
 there will not be a deficiency of above 50Z. upon the 
 whole of the subscriptions up to the end of last year. 
 
 521. Have you had any recourse to the power given 
 you under the Act of Parliament to prosecute, in order 
 to recover the subscriptions ? — Yes. On two occa- 
 sions we applied to a magistrate to assist us in re- 
 covering subscriptions, but the cliief object of the 
 application was to get repayment for the uniforms 
 supplied ; the magistrate at Hammersmith said that 
 he had no jurisdiction as to uniforms, and sent us to 
 the county court, to which, however, we did not go. 
 In the cases respecting which we applied to a magis- 
 trate, the sums that were due for subscriptions were 
 very trifling indeed. 
 
 522. Did that have a salutary effect upon the others, 
 and did the subscriptions come in afterwards ? — I 
 think it had a good effect. 
 
 523. Have you struck off many men for non-pay- 
 ment ? — None. 
 
 524. {Viscount Hardinge.) You have stated that 
 three-fourths of your men are mechanics and artizans. 
 Can you tell the Commissioners what they earn per 
 week on the average ? — I cannot. I have one com- 
 pany composed of men who are in the employment of 
 an extensive building firm, and another company 
 consists of workmen belonging to an engineer esta- 
 blishment ; and those men, I take it, are in the 
 receipt of from 205. to oOs. a week. 
 
 525. {Lord Elcho.) What probability is there that 
 those men in your corps who have had their uniforms 
 furnished to them, for which they have paid by instal- 
 ments, will renew their uniforms when required ? — I 
 think they would renew their unifurms. Some of 
 them mav not ; but T think that the mnjority of them 
 would rei;ew their uniforms when required to do so. 
 
 526. Would you have to enter into some arrange- 
 ment for the purpose ? — Yes, I think we should. 
 
 527. Would you do so after the experience you 
 have had of the past ? — Yes, I would do so w itli a 
 large majority of the men. Most of them have paid 
 well. Certainly there wei-e some exceptions; but 
 although wo have been losers, on the whole the 
 advances have been very creditably repaid. 
 
 528. But do you think that under such an arrange- 
 ment you may reckon the loss at 10 per cent. ? — 
 I think that we shall lose 100/. out of 1,200Z. 
 
 529. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Have you taken advan- 
 tage in any way of the Government offer and obtained 
 cloth at a cheaper rate ? — No ; I have not been 
 disposed to do so. I have found upon inquiry from 
 the^tailors that the gain would not be great, as they 
 would have to charge more for the making. 
 
 530. You must bear in mind that this Government 
 cloth will be carefully inspected by Government 
 officers, and that you will be sure of obtaining a good 
 article ? — That would be an advantage, no doubt, but 
 the tailors whom we employ have supplied us well, 
 and as the foreman is a member of my corps, I am 
 sure that if he furnished bad cloth the members 
 would complain. 
 
 531. Your cloth is made up by a contractor? — 
 Yes. 
 
 532. Entirely ? — When I say that, I do not mean 
 that I require members to go to a particular con- 
 tractor, but in the case of members of the band, whom 
 we clothe, and in the case of those who pay for their 
 uniforms by instalments, we employ a contractor. 
 
 533. Would the issue of cloth by the Government, 
 supposing it were issued in a piece, be a great assist- 
 ance to your men, I mean to give the cloth gratis ? — • 
 Yes, it certainly would be, but not so great as might 
 be supposed ; my own opinion is, and I have thought 
 a good deal about it lately, that the best course is to 
 let every volunteer find his own clothing, and that 
 any assistance the Government can give should be in 
 another direction. I find that some of those to whom 
 clothing is given take very little care of it. 
 
 534. And very often does it happen that that is a 
 man who attends less frequently at the drill ? — I 
 cannot so well speak as to that, because we have 
 given no uniforms to effective members ; the men I 
 referred to belong to the band. 
 
 535. {Lord Elcho.) The result of your considera- 
 tion of this question of Government aid is that it is 
 your opinion that perhaps practically the best form in 
 which it could be given would be a capitation 
 allowance of so much for each volunteer ? — Yes. 
 
 536. To be given not in any way to the individual 
 volunteer, but to the commanding officer to expend 
 for the good of the i-egiment in the way which he 
 thinks best ? — I think so ; but if it were thought 
 desirable not to leave it so much to the discretion of 
 commanding officers, I should not have any objection 
 to limit it to certain things, such as drill grounds, 
 headquarters, rifle ranges, and appliances for special 
 instruction. 
 
 537. You would confine it within certain limits ? 
 — Yes, to prevent the money being ap^died to any 
 improper use. 
 
 538. Do you think it would be possible to give any 
 assistance that might be required in kind ? — No ; I 
 think not decidedly. I think it had better be given 
 to be spent on certain things, at the discretion of the 
 commanding officer. 
 
 539. {Lord Overstone.) I gather from your evi- 
 dence that you feel considerable confidence as to your 
 own corps, and you think you could maintain its 
 efficiency without extraneous aid ? — I think so. 
 
 540. Notwithstanding that, you are still of opinion 
 that it would be a matter of expediency and prudence 
 that aid should be obtained by a direct pecuniary 
 grant from the Government, thereby enabling you to 
 relieve your members from their annual subscriptions? 
 — Yes ; that is my opinion. 
 
 541. Have you carefully weighed the probable 
 moral eftect of such a course upon the character of
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOT.UNTEEK FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 33 
 
 the mcmlicrs of the volunteer force ? — Yes ; if a 
 voUmtcer provides his own uniform and gives his 
 time, which, as I liavo stated, may amount in my 
 corps to at least three evenings in the week, I think 
 that it would not have any demoralizing ctrect upon 
 him to receive assistance in the nature of that which 
 has already in some degree been extended to him. 
 Instructors are already provided, and I would extend 
 to him, .13 I have stated, assistance for the purpose 
 of obtaining a ritle range, drill grounds, and other 
 accomuu)dations of that description. I think that the 
 commanding oUicer would be the best judgt' as to 
 how the money ought to be laid out, subject of course 
 to his rendering accounts, and showing that what ho 
 receives had been properly expended. 
 
 ,i42. The object of my question is to draw your 
 attention to the distinction between the effect of a 
 direct pecuniary grant avowed as a pecuniary pay- 
 ment by the Government to a corps, and the effect of 
 an advance perhajis to the s.ame amount ultimately 
 but in a more indirect form, to assist the corps in 
 bearing its various engagements, or, r.ather, relieving 
 the corps from some charges -which it is now subject 
 to. I wish particularly to ascertain your opinion as 
 to the different effect upon the feelings of the persons 
 who constitute the corps in case of their receiving a 
 direct pecuniary payment, contrasted with their being 
 aided by Government pay, in the way of finding tools 
 and providing a rifle range, and defraying the ex- 
 penses of conveyance, and aiding in the expense of 
 throwing up field works, or any other of the indirect 
 forms through which aid might be extended to the 
 corps, without its assuming what is ordinarily con- 
 sidered rather the humiliation of a direct payment? — 
 I do not think that the fact of the payment being 
 made in money to the commanding officer for special 
 purposes would have .any demoralizing effect upon 
 the men. 
 
 543. You think that the sense of a direct payment 
 would not militate against the principle upon which 
 you have laid great stress, that it is extremely desir- 
 able that the men should feel that it is an honour 
 and a privilege to belong to their corps ? — I think 
 that the men would consider th.at they were entitled, 
 as they have hitherto been considei-ed entitled, to 
 some aid in the form of instruction and so forth, and 
 that merely to extend it, as I propose, to what has 
 been found absolutely necessary for the well-being of 
 the corps, such as rifle ranges, he, could have no 
 prejudicial effect upon them. 
 
 .544. What sort of influence or interference is now 
 exercised by the members of your corps over the 
 conduct and proceedings and regulations of the officers 
 of the corps ? — Under the regulations there is a com- 
 mittee to aid mo in all financial matters, that com- 
 mittee meets frequently, and I avail myself very 
 much of their aid ; it is formed of one officer of each 
 company, and one member of each company not being 
 an officer, and I take every opportunity of letting 
 them know the position of everything connected with 
 the corps ; I endeavour as much as possible to advise 
 with them and to associate all of them in one common 
 interest, so that each shall .aid individually as well as 
 collectively. 
 
 545. In the volunteer force I presume, of course, 
 that every member of the force feels more entitled to 
 exercise an independent judgment, and some inter- 
 ference or control in the gener.al management of the 
 corps, than would be the case in the regular military 
 force ? — I believe so, cert.ainly. 
 
 546. That being so, do you not think that consi- 
 der.able danger and inconvenience might arise precisely 
 in proportion as you entrust a commnndiug officer 
 with a discrotion in the man.agement of funds received 
 directly from the Government ? — I have mentioned 
 before, that I thought it desirable to confine within 
 certain limits the expenditure of the money intrusted 
 by the Government to commanding officers. If this 
 were done, I do not think that there would be any 
 prejudicial influence exercised by the members of the 
 
 corps upon the commanding officer in tho expcndituro Lieut.-Col. 
 
 of the money. /{'f'?'', 
 
 .>4(. Jf the money is to I)e paid to the comm.anding ■ 
 
 ofl^ccr, with tho express understanding that it s])all 30 May 1S62. 
 
 be applied only to certain purposes, do not you think ■ 
 
 that consideralile danger will arise, .although tho 
 apparent inconvenience of making the corps tho 
 recipient directly of Government, money would bo 
 avoided, from subjecting the commanding officer to 
 the inconvenience and responsibility, .apparently at 
 least, of administering that fund ? — I do not see what 
 danger could possibly arise. 1 think that it would 
 be very difficult for tlio Government to carry out the 
 administration of sucii money satisfactorily; in my 
 own ease I question whetluT it would bo ])ossible for 
 the Government to go into all tho minute arrange- 
 ments which it would be necessary to make in order 
 to deal with tho expenditure of tho money ; at all 
 events the different corps could get what they want 
 much better themselves. 
 
 548. I believe you have already stated that you 
 have received from the Government the tools that are 
 used in your earthwork operations ? — Yes ; some of 
 them. 
 
 549. Could you not, upon the s.ame principle, re- 
 ceive from tlic Government a rifle range or a field in 
 which to work, or the expenses of conveyance when 
 you heave to incur expenses in conveying your men to 
 certain places for battalion drill .and other purposes? 
 — Certainly ; if the Government were to provide a 
 rifle range or a field, then of course it would not bo 
 necessary for us to lay out any money for such 
 objects ; that would be sufficient. But then arises tho 
 question whether tho Government would be able to pro- 
 vide such .accommodation in rifle ranges, drill grounds, 
 and headquarters as each corps would require, and 
 whether they could do so as cheaply and well as the 
 different corps could for themselves. 
 
 550. After having had your attention pointedly 
 drawn to the different considerations which affect 
 direct pecuni.ary aid from the Government, or jiecu- 
 niary aid in an indirect form, you are still deliberately 
 of ojiinion that the direct form of aid would be the 
 most practicable and desirable ? — Certaiul}^ I do 
 think so. Looking at it in every point of view, I do 
 think that a direct p.ayment of so much jier head 
 would be the best mode of dealing with the question. 
 
 551. {Lord Elcho.') Do you know of any precedent 
 for the Government so dealing, as you have suggested, 
 with the volunteer force ; I mean in money ? — No, I 
 am not aware of any. 
 
 552. Are you aware of how the commanding oflficers 
 of the Yeomanry corps receive what is called con- 
 tingent allow.ancc to be spent upon the corps ? — I am 
 not aw.arc of the arr.angement to which you refer. 
 
 553. ( Jlscount Ilardhir/e.) You have stated that 
 it would be impossible for the Government, were they 
 to administer the funds proposed, to go into minute 
 details respecting rifle ranges or any other part of tho 
 expenditure. Would not the Government, if they 
 gave further aid in tho shape of a capitation grant, 
 have to examine very n.arrowly the details of the ex- 
 penditure, and demand accounts from each corps ? — 
 Certainly ; I think that they should demand accounts 
 at the end of the year, and tliat they should have such 
 accounts submitted to them. When I spoke of the 
 difficulty of the details, I meant that private persons 
 can often make advantageous .arrangements, which 
 official correspondence would complicate, or perhaps 
 altogethci- prevent. 
 
 554. Still, at the same time you admit, that in the 
 case of a capitation grant the Government would 
 necessarily have to go into consider.able details of 
 expenditure ? — Yes ; I think that tho Government 
 ought to see that the money has teen properly 
 expended. 
 
 555. You have stated tiiat you think the members 
 of your corps ought to lie released from their annual 
 subscriptions after attending .so many day's drill, what 
 is the minimum amount of drill tlint you would think 
 on those grounds sufficient ? — I think I should not 
 
 F 2
 
 36 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COSOIISSIONEES APPOINTED 
 
 I,ieut.-Col. 
 
 Macleod 
 of Macleod. 
 
 30 May 1862. 
 
 be disposed to alter the number of days provided by 
 the Act of Parliiimeut. I boheve that they woukl 
 willingly attend that number of drills. 
 
 5ofi. Are you aware what the number of drills 
 specified by the Act of Parliament is ? — I think it is 
 24 drills. 
 
 557. You are not aware that it is 18 ? — I was not 
 aware of that. 
 
 558. Are you aware that by the regulations of 
 the War Office no member should be returned as 
 effective who has not been present at the annual in- 
 spection, of course excepting those who bring satis- 
 factory excuses ? — Yes, I am aware of that. 
 
 559. Have you strictly complied with that regula- 
 tion ? — This year- our inspection does not take place, 
 until the end of next month. With regard to last 
 year, we had two days' inspection, the first day was 
 for battalion drill, the second day was for engineering, 
 and I believe that all my men were present with the 
 exception of those who had leave of absence. 
 
 560. Have those men who ha^•e been present at 
 the inspection all been passed into the battalion ? — 
 Yes, I think all have. 
 
 561. You have stated that 3'ou would leave the 
 discipline pretty much as it is now in the volunteer 
 corps. Have you ever experienced any inconvenience 
 as to the appointment of officers or non-commissioned 
 officers ? — No ; I appoint the non-commissioned offi- 
 cers after examination, and on the recommendation 
 of captains of companies. With respect to officers, I 
 have always recommended them for appointment on 
 my own responsibility, but I have invariably con- 
 sulted the members of a company whether the person 
 I proposed to appoint would lie acceptable to them ; 
 generally when there has been a vacancy I have 
 requested the members to select two names, and I 
 have made the appointment from those tAvo. 
 
 562. Is that according to your rules ? — No, there 
 is no rule ; I consider that the appointment of the 
 officers should rest with me, but that I should 
 endeavour to feel my way and ascertain that tho 
 appointments would be well received ; I think that 
 in the volunteer service it is of great importance 
 that the officers should be popular with the men. 
 
 563. Do you think it is desirable for the Govern- 
 ment to frame one set of rules for the whole force ; 
 you are aware, I presume, that at present each 
 corps has its own separate set of rules ? — Yes. 
 
 564. Would it be desirable, in your opinion, to 
 alter that system ? — The rules are nearly all founded 
 upon the original rules adopted at the War Office at 
 the commencement of the volunteer movement. 
 
 565. I presume you can only speak from hearsay 
 as to other metropolitan corps ? — I think it would be 
 better to leave each corps to make its own rules. 
 
 566. For what reasons ? — I have not considered 
 the question much, but there must be many points of 
 difference between the corps, and on that ground I 
 think it desirable they should have an opportunity 
 of making their own rules. 
 
 567. Having regard to the metropolitan corps, 
 what differences do j'ou allude to that would make it 
 necessary to have a different set of rules for each ? — 
 In my own corps, for instance, with respect to the 
 annual subscription, some pay one guinea, while 
 others pay 13«. 
 
 568. But that is purely a financial question that 
 does not affect the discipline of the corps. My 
 question related to the rules affecting matters of dis- 
 cipline ? — I may, perhaps, quote the following rule 
 from our regulations as an example of a differ- 
 ence, for I doubt if it is to be met with in the 
 rules of other corps: "All candidates to become 
 officers must possess the special acquirements pre- 
 scribed by the War Department, and will compete 
 by a general practical and scientific examination, to 
 be conducted as may seem best to the Secretary of 
 State for War." Those rules were submitted by me 
 to the Secretary of State for War, and he put in — 
 " if he should think fit to give any directions on the 
 subject." He has not .seen fit to give any directions 
 
 upon the subject, and therefore that portion of the 
 rule has been inoperative. 
 
 569. What objection would there be to the Govern- 
 ment laying down a special regulation for the ex- 
 amination of officers, if it were judiciously done ? — I 
 think it would probably prevent a good many men 
 who would otherwise be very eligible indeed from 
 entering a service in which they would have to 
 undergo an examination. 
 
 570. Putting aside the question of examination, I 
 ask you whether, generally speaking, rules judiciously 
 framed by the Government might not be drawn up 
 in a way that would be acceptable to the whole 
 volunteer force ? — I think it is desirable to observe 
 general principles, undoubtedly, in the formation of 
 rules ; but I think there are, probably, shades of 
 difference connected with every corps, which would 
 make it desirable that each corps should have its own 
 rules. 
 
 571. As to the system of drill, do you see any 
 objection to the volunteer force having one uniform 
 system of discipline, going from the setting-up drill 
 upwards ? — I think a uniform system would bo very 
 desirable. 
 
 572. {Sir A. Campbell.) You have stated that you 
 have certain companies which are composed entirely 
 of men in the employment of one firm ; are those 
 companies officered by their employers or by the 
 overseers of their employers ? — The captain and first 
 lieutenant of the company of engineers are both in 
 the firm. The company which is formed of men in 
 the employment of the builder, is commanded by his 
 brother-in-law. 
 
 573. Do you consider that a desirable mode of 
 appointment ? — I do, always with the I'cservation 
 that they are eligible as officers. 
 
 574. (Earl ofDucie.) Have you ever had any dif- 
 ference of opinion with your men as to the selection 
 of officers ? — Never but once ; one of the members 
 had formerly been in the Turkish service, and was a 
 capital drill ; this man made himself so acceptable to 
 a company of mechanics and artizans that they were 
 extremely desirous of having him appointed as an 
 officer ; but as I could not recommend him for such 
 an appointment, I told them so very frankly, and they 
 acquiesced at once in my decision. 
 
 575. Do you generally find that the men are 
 anxious to recommend persons having a good social 
 position as officers ? — Yes ; and I think that the 
 officers should have a good social position to have 
 any weii;ht with the men. 
 
 576. You have stated that the earnings of the men 
 varied from 20s. to 50s. a week ? — That was rather a 
 guess. 
 
 577. Do you know that you have any men in the 
 receipt of wages so low as 20*. a week ? — Yes, I am 
 sure there must be some. 
 
 578. Are they numerous ? — No, I should think not 
 very numerous. I have frequently asked applicants 
 about whom I entertained any doubt whether they 
 could aflbrd to pay for their uniform, and have 
 generally been informed that they were in the employ- 
 ment of a father or uncle, and would be assisted by 
 them. 
 
 579. The persons who are in receipt of the lowest 
 wages as you have mentioned are probably rising 
 young artizans ? — Yes, young men entering business, 
 apprentices, perhaps, or those who have just served 
 their apprenticeship. 
 
 580. (Lord Overstone.) What is your opinion of 
 an effort being made to obtain further subscriptions 
 from the honorary members, both as to the probable 
 success of such effort and its expediency ? — I have 
 very few honorary members, and I think that there 
 is no probability of increasing the number. My 
 experience rather is, that honorary members, after 
 having given one or two subscriptions, seem little 
 inclined to continue them. 
 
 581. {Sir A. Campliell.) With regard to those 
 artizans who receive small wages, do they lose any 
 part of their wages by attendance at diill 'i — No.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLrNTEER FORCE IN CREAT RRTTAI.V. 
 
 S7 
 
 Occasionally men may have left their work, nntl lost 
 perhaps a quarter or half a ilay. We were inviterl to 
 send a guard of honour to the Horticultural Gai-dens 
 on the occasion of the opening of the great Kihibition. 
 and 100 men were selected to form that guard of 
 honour, they were the men who liad attended the 
 greatest number of drills in the course of the year, 
 so many from each company, and I believe that some 
 of tliose men sacrificed half a day's wages in order 
 to go. 
 
 582. But that does not occur at the ordinary drills? 
 — No ; we do not drill until 7 o'clock in the evening. 
 
 583. (Lord Elcho.) You have stated that your. sub- 
 scription is a guinea for clerks, and 13*. for artizans ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 584. Is it not the case that there are many clerks in 
 the receipt of 70/. and 80/. a year who can less easily 
 afford their subscriptions than artizans who are in the 
 receipt of SO*-, a week ? — Yes ; I believe that may bo 
 so, and that artizans are often better able to pay than 
 clerks ; but then my object is to get artizans and 
 mechanics, and not clerks. 
 
 585. You have said that you esjiect that when 
 the time comes for renewing the uniform, you will 
 have recourse to the same practice that you adopted 
 when you first began, namely, to establish a sort of 
 guarantee fund, and to allow the men to pay by instal- 
 ments ? — Yes. 
 
 586. Your guarantee in that case will be your pre- 
 sent subscriptions ? — Yes. 
 
 587. Suppose the plan which you have suggested to 
 be adopted, and that the Government should make a 
 capitation grant founded upon certain rules, you think 
 that there would be no necessit)' for the subscriptions, 
 but in that case you would have no fund to enable 
 you to make an arrangement with regard to the clotli- 
 ing ? — Unless the officers would guarantee the pay- 
 ment of the amount. 
 
 588. Do you think that in cases where there are 
 corps which in a great measure have been clothed by 
 extraneous aid, and which have not in themselves the 
 means of renewing their uniforms, it might not be 
 desirable to have a discretionary power, supposing a 
 capitation grant to be given, to spend part of the 
 money in the purchase of a second uniform, supposing 
 that the men were ready to accept it ? — My opinion 
 is formed only from my experience of a London 
 corps, but I do think it is not advisable that the 
 public money should be spent upon the uniform in any 
 shape. 
 
 589. {Major Harcourt.) You stated that the cap- 
 tains of companies are employed to collect the monies 
 due by the men for their uniforms ? — Yes. 
 
 590. Have you reason to suppose that they have 
 sufiered an}' loss, and that they have paid any money 
 out of their own pockets ? — No, none of them ; all that 
 I require them to do is to account for what they have 
 received. 
 
 591. ( Viscount Hurdinge.~) With regard to the tools 
 furnished to you, are there any articles or materials 
 that you think the Government could gratuitously 
 supply, and which are not mentioned in this list ? — 
 Yes, there is a gabion invented, by Serjeant-major 
 Jones, which I should like to have, tliere is a specimen 
 of it in the Exhibition. I should also like to get 
 some wood for gabions and facines ; it would be very 
 useful to us. 
 
 592. Have you got your full number of drill in- 
 structors ? — I have two drill instructors, but that is 
 not my full number. 
 
 593. What is your full number ? — I am entitled to 
 three drill instructors. 
 
 594. Cannot you procure them ? — No ; I liave 
 laboured under the greatest difficulty for the want of 
 them : I have often applied, but cannot got them ; 
 the Koyal Engineers have not got enough tor them- 
 selves. 
 
 595. Have you had the two temporarily a(taclu!d 
 to you ? — Colonel Chapman, of the Koyal Engineers, 
 informed me that they had no good instructors to give 
 us, and that I must look about and try to lind men for 
 myself. I succeeded at last in finding a scrjcant of 
 the Royal Engineers, who had left the service for a 
 considerable time. I pvocureil his appointment, and 
 he now receives the usual rate of allowance which is 
 given to instructors. Another man, who belongs to 
 the Roj'al Engineer force at Soutli Kensington, and 
 who used to drill us, has been under instruction for 
 the last two months at Chatham, and I exj)ect him up 
 every day. 
 
 596. Do you give those two instructors any extra 
 allowance ? — None. 
 
 597. Do you give your adjutant any extra allow- 
 ance ? — None. 
 
 598. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do you consider that you 
 have perfect power to enforce your ordei's ? — Un- 
 doubtedly ; my orders are always obeyed. 
 
 599. Do you think that there should be one uni- 
 form and clearly-defined system of discipline for all 
 the volunteer corps? — -I think there would be diffi- 
 culties in carrying out any very strict system of 
 military discipline. I think tliat volunteers would 
 be very apt to feel and to resent any undue inter- 
 f(jrence with them. 
 
 600. You think it would be unpopular ? — Yes. 
 
 601. If I understand you rightly, every man who 
 attends the drills, su})posing them to amount to 18, is 
 more or less out of pocket ; that is to say, if he goes 
 to the rifle range it will cost him Qd., or if he sacri- 
 fices a day's work he will be out of pocket ? — I do 
 not consider hnn out of pocket in attending the 
 ordinary drills. 
 
 602. Not from loss of his time ? — No. The day's 
 work is over at seven o'clock. He is not out of pocket 
 in attending from seven till nine. 
 
 603. Not necessarily out of pocket ? — No. 
 
 604. Supposing him to have in some way to incur 
 expense, and that Government aid were given to the 
 extent of 1/. a man, would you allow that to be given 
 to a man in proportion to the number of days that he 
 had attended and been so put to expense ? — I do not 
 think that that would be at all desirable, and very 
 open to abuse. I think that would never do. 
 
 605. {Sir A. CampbcU.) And not even for travel- 
 ling expenses ? — No ; I think that it would be impos- 
 sible to carry out such a system as that. The only 
 ■way in which I think aid could be given by the 
 Government would be by supplying rifle ranges and 
 drill grounds. 
 
 606. {Earl of Diicie.) Are not the visits to the rifle 
 range and attendance at drills a substitute for other 
 amusements and relaxations which the men liad 
 before ? — I think to a certain extent they are. 
 Mechanics and artizans have their own amusements ; 
 some perhaps go to public houses and smoke, but t 
 think the better class do not ; I think that many 
 consider it a relaxation and amusement to come to 
 drill. 
 
 607. But that class which can least afford it would 
 be, if they were not attending drill, sjiending flicir 
 money in some other amusement equally expensive, 
 and perhaps less advantageous to them ? — Probably 
 so, but I cannot say. 
 
 IJnit.-Cnl. 
 
 of Mfirkod. 
 
 no May 1862 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Major Marcus Beeesforu examined 
 
 608. {Chairman.) You command the 7th Surrey 
 Eifle Volunteers ? — I do. 
 
 609. It consists of six companies ? — Yes. 
 
 610. And the establishment per company is 100 
 men ? — Yes. 
 
 611. How many men have you on the roll ? — 475. 
 
 612. At your ordinary battalion drills, how many 
 of those men do you muster ? — We generally have 
 from 120 to 160. Sometimes considerably mere, 
 sometimes less, about once a month 220 to 260 
 
 F 3 
 
 Maj. M. 
 Brrrfif'iirii,
 
 38 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 licrt'sjhrd. 
 ■M Jlay 1862. 
 
 613. IIow often do you have your battalion drills ? 
 — Every Saturday, 
 
 614. Aro there company drills besides ? — Yes; 
 every Wednesday, and recruit drill every Monday. 
 
 615. Have you a rifle range '< — I have, with the 
 l)crmission of Lord Elcho, the use of his range at 
 Wimbledon twice a week ; the two ranges 2nd and 
 3rd class. 
 
 616. Have many of your men gone through a course 
 of musketry instruction at Hythc ? — None with the 
 exception of the adjutant; he has just gone through 
 a course of instruction there and obtained a first-class 
 certificate. 
 
 617. Do you find that your numbers diminish or 
 increase ? — I have received a considerable accession 
 of men lately in the shape of a company of SO men 
 from the London Armoury company, less 25 who 
 were before in the employment of that establishment 
 and who were transferred to their own company ; 
 otherwise I think we are on the decrease rather 
 than not. 
 
 618. Can you account for that in any way ? — Yes, I 
 can ; the Lord Lieutenant of the county has limited 
 me to six companies of the maximum of 100, and 
 the consequence has been that within the last three 
 months I have been compelled to refuse two or three 
 oilers of bodies of men numbering over 40 .ind over 
 60 because I had no vacant commissions to recommend 
 the gentlemen for who made the offers. I have been 
 obliged to forego admitting men to my regiment for 
 the reason above stated, and it has acted most pre- 
 judicially to the increase of the strength of the 
 regiment generally, the number of officers per 100 
 men being also limited to three. 
 
 619. You think that that has acted disadvanta- 
 geously ? — Decidedly. 
 
 620. Have you a regimental fund ? — I have. 
 
 621. How is it formed ? — It consists of the annual 
 subscriptions of the rank and file, of one guinea a 
 head per annum, paid in two half-yearly sums of 
 10s. 6c?., and a subscription by honorary members of 
 two guineas each ]ier annum. 
 
 622. What do the officers pay ? — The payment by 
 the otlicers is three guineas, that is, that they each 
 give a subscription as an honorary member, and each 
 of them also a guinea as an effective member. 
 
 623. Have you a band fund which is perfectly dis- 
 tinct ? — Yes ; that is paid for by the oflicers, the 
 privates pay nothing towards it ; there is no com- 
 pulsory payment by the privates but the guinea a 
 year. 
 
 624. Do your privates supply themselves with 
 their own uniforms ? — Yes. 
 
 625. Have you assisted them from the regimental 
 fund ? — No, upon no occasion ; but I should state that 
 in the early stage of this regiment, before I had any- 
 thing to do with it, excepting being an honorary 
 member, there seemed no prospect of its being carried 
 out, and I was solicited to have my name sent in 
 for the command. It was supposed then that there 
 were at least 70 or 80 men ready to join, but in 
 anticipation that the corps would not be established, 
 they joined other corps, and I found 8 men left, 
 and in order to give a stimulus to the thing I was 
 obliged to enter into an arrangement, and I adver- 
 tised that I would equip 120 men, giving them credit 
 for the equipment. I became responsible. I equipped 
 120 men, and I lost aliout 400/. by it. There are 
 some 80 of those men who do not now come to drill, 
 because they owe money for their equipments, and I 
 have sent them circulars, telling them that if they will 
 come to drill I shall not press them for the money, 
 but they do not like to come because they owe me 
 money ; the amount I became responsible for was all 
 paid off by mo before the expiration of last year, and 
 I have lost about 400/. 
 
 626. What was the total amount ? — Originally it 
 was quite 800/. 
 
 627. What is the financial position of your corps ; 
 have you a balance sheet ? — Yes. 
 
 628. Just hatid it in, and describe generally the 
 
 atate of your finances ? — This is not a printed balance 
 sheet, it was not prepared for this occasion. I pre- 
 pared it last year when we were in debt, but I will 
 send in a bona fide copy of the balance sheet at any 
 time if the Commissioners wish for it. Briefly our 
 expenses last year were over 1,127/. 
 
 629. AVhat were your subscriptions ? — I have the 
 receipts for twelve months from the 1st July to the 
 30th of June, and the subscriptions were 837/. 
 
 630. What were the principal items of the expen- 
 diture ? — Eent 206/. altogether, wages 296/. 
 
 631. The rent, I presume, was for headquarters ? 
 — Yes, and the drill shed. 
 
 632. What were the wages for ? — They consisted 
 of payments to an orderly-room clerk, to the serjeaiit- 
 major, drill Serjeant, and a man who cleans the arms ; 
 the drill serjeaut assists in that work also ; all the 
 arms aro kept on the premises in our armoury. 
 
 633. They are not giveu to the individual members 
 to take care of? — No; they are in the armoury. 
 I give the serjeant-major 30^. a week. 
 
 634. {Col. MacMiirrlo.) Independently of his 
 Government pay ? — Not now ; this is for the last 
 year ; he has the same pay now, but of course what 
 the Government pay him is deducted from the 30,s-. ; 
 these items are chiefly for 1861 ; the printing came 
 to 59/.; the stationery to 23/. 10.s.; travelling 7/. lOs. — 
 (that was for the officials, the serjeant-major going to 
 Wimbledon and Plumstead, and other men) ; clothing 
 44/. 1 as., that is the clothing of the serjeant-major, and 
 there ai'e two or three officials whom we find in 
 clothing ; the expense of clothing this year will not 
 exceed 20/. Then ammunition cost 33/. 18s. Td. ; 
 law costs last year 1 30/. In March last year wo 
 moved into different headquarters ; we were in South- 
 wark and now we are in Lambeth. The agent of the 
 landlord gave me authority to take possession, which 
 we did ; but the tenant who lived next door became 
 alarmed and he went to the landlord and said that he 
 should leave his house .and that all the other tenants 
 would do so likewise, and in consequence of this, and 
 of the agreement not having been signed, an action 
 was commenced in Chancery to eject me, but it did 
 not succeed. The next item is, band instruments 
 23/. 13s., but that is not for our band, it is for bugles 
 and big drum. We had also a dinner at Freemason's 
 Tavern, and there is an item of 33/. which was paid 
 out of the funds of the corps. The dinner cost 130/., 
 but a large part of it was paid by the officers. A 
 portion of the expense connected with the presenta- 
 tion of a bugle we considered ought to be paid out of 
 the funds of the regiment, and it amounted to 33/. 
 The miscellaneous expenses were 65/., for postage 
 and odds and ends of all sorts. There was also a 
 sum of 35/. promiuni paid to Messrs. Churchill and 
 Sim to give up the lease which had been deposited 
 with them by our predecessor, who was a bankru|)t. 
 Tliose items amounted to 820/. paid in cash, and 
 with the unpaid bills Dec. 31 to 1,120/. I reckon 
 our expenses during the current year at about 
 500/. ; our rent will be reduced to 170/., including 
 hire of rifle range, and wages, in consideration of wliat 
 the Government allow, to 120/., as I have dispensed 
 with the secretary and clerk also, and some other 
 items will disappear. There will be no ammunition 
 now, no law costs, except for the lease of the field 
 and parade ground, no bugles, no " presentation " 
 expenses, but the miscellaneous items will be as much 
 as before. 
 
 635. Do you anticipate that your future income 
 will be more than will cover your expenses ? — No, I 
 do not ; the expenditure for the current year will be 
 about 500/. 
 
 636. {EnrlofDitcie.) The receipts being estimated 
 at 320/. ? — Yes. If we continue to have subscrip- 
 tions from the rank and file. 
 
 637. {Clidirman.) You anticipate that those sub- 
 scriptions will amount to 320/. ? — Yes, fully that. 
 
 638. And your expenses to 500/. ? — Yes. 
 
 639. {Lord Overstonc.) The funds that you anti- 
 cipate you put down at about 300/. ? — Yes ; I think
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 39 
 
 they will quite equal tliiit. I am rather depending 
 upon letting- the large drill shed which we have built 
 lately. That has been built by a loan from one of my 
 brother officers ; ho advanced the money and we have 
 to pay otf so much a year, and I look upon getting 
 10(3/. a year for the use of that and our drill ground. 
 Wo have quarters, mess room, armoury, magazine, 
 parade ground, a drill shed, and a drill field of three 
 acres, all close together; wo have been at very great 
 expense, and we have just spent between 600/. and 
 700/. ; it is a large shed 160 feet long by 60 feet in 
 the clear. 
 
 640. That is an e.xponse that will not occur again ? 
 — No, it will not, and I hope to get the cost of the 
 shed back ia the course of five years, by letting it to 
 other corps. 
 
 641. Do you anticipate any diminution in the 
 numbers of your corps ? — I do. I do not see any 
 hope of getting any additional men, for the reason I 
 have ah'eady assigned ; there are very few resigna- 
 tions, but I think when it comes to the question 
 of new uniforms the numbers will decrease. The 
 class of members that I have in my regiment 
 consists chiefly of clerks in different establishments, 
 and of artizans. I can state exactly what I received 
 last year in guinea and half guinea subscriptions, and 
 the number of defaulters. The numlier of the mem- 
 bers who attended 24 drills or more during that year 
 was 258. A very large number of them attended a 
 great many drills. I exhibited the returns to Colonel 
 MacMurdo some time ago, showing the number of 
 men who had attended from 60 to 90 drills, and 
 several of them over 30 and 40. 
 
 642. {Viscount Harduige.) In one year ? — Yes. I 
 have one company of 80 men who all attended more 
 than 24 times, not less than 30 drills in a year. The 
 number who paid a guinea, for 1861, was 270; the 
 number who paid half a guinea, for 1861, was 54 ; 
 and those who neither paid the guinea nor the half 
 guinea were 88, making in all 412, the strength of 
 the regiment ; but I sliould mention that the bulk of 
 those 88 are men who owe money on the equipment 
 account, and who, therefore, will not come. 
 
 643. Do you think that the efficiency of your corps 
 can be maintained without assistance from the Go- 
 vernment ? — No ; I am sure it cannot. 
 
 644. In what way do you think that assistance 
 could be most beneficially aftbrded ? — Perhaps I may 
 first state that the nominal strength of the regiment 
 being 475, the present effective strength of those who 
 have attended drill during the last quarter is 338, 
 showing a considerable increase. The number of 
 men who have paid one guinea for this year is 78, and 
 the number who have paid lO*. 6f/. for this year is 
 112. It is quite optional whether they pay a guinea 
 in the first quarter of the year or not ; it is due 
 thus : 10*. 6d. in January and 10^. Gd. in July. As 
 to the mode of assistance, I do not think that the 
 regiment ought to be put to any expense for cleaning 
 arms, for instance. 
 
 645. How many of them have paid nothing at all 
 this year ? — They are represented by the differenco 
 between 190 and 395, as 80 members pay no guinea 
 subscription, these three numbers making the total 
 of 475. 
 
 646. {Chairmrni.) I understood you to say that 
 nothing, in your opinion, should be paid to the men 
 for the care of the arms ? — No, certainly not. Tt 
 fakes two men the whole week to clean our arms. 
 There is a recruit drill on Monday, company drill 
 on Wednesday, and batallion drill on Saturdays. 
 
 647. Do you think there is any other expense that 
 ought to be defrayed by the Government? — Yes, 
 there is the question of rent. It costs me now 170/. 
 a year, but that includes our quarters, parade ground, 
 field, and rifle range ; they come altogether to 170/. 
 
 648. In what way sliould the grant be made ; by 
 way of a capitation grant or should it be a special 
 payment for those items of your expenditure ? — I 
 should consider a capitation grant better than anything 
 else. 
 
 649. (Col. MacMia-do.) In what way would you 
 a|iply it? — I should give an account of its a|)])lication 
 if necessary ; and I sliould apply it in the payment of 
 those items which I have enumerated. The circum- 
 stances and expenses of volunteer regiments vary 
 much. 
 
 650. {Chainnan.) What in your opinion should be 
 tho amount of such a grant? — I think in my own 
 case, if I did not dispense entirely with the subscrip- 
 tions of tho i)rivates, that 10*-. annually per head 
 would cover the exjjense, and leave us really free 
 from the annoyance of having to beg for money. In 
 December last, in order to provide funds for the 
 amount that we were in arrear, in consoipience of our 
 law expenses and other matters, I and my brother 
 officers subscribed 140/,, and that still left us owing 
 150/. for the last year. One of my brother officers 
 this year lent the regiment 500/. for five years, in 
 order to build the drill shed and to discharge the 
 150/. owing for 1861. 
 
 651. {Col. MacMurdo.) Have you made an estimate 
 for your drill shed ? — It is completed and paid for. 
 It cost 368/. 
 
 652. {Chairman.') Do you think that a grant of \Qs. 
 a head, in addition to the subscriptions from th(^ corps, 
 would completely carry you through ? — I think it 
 would, if the rank and file are stiU to be called upon 
 to subscribe. 
 
 653. What would your subscriptions then be re- 
 duced to ? — They would be reduced to lO*-. 
 
 654. What subscriptions would the officers jiay ? 
 
 An officer would pay three guineas a year as he does 
 now. It must be remembered that the whole expense 
 of the band falls upon the officers. I pay so much a 
 year towards, it and the other officers pay according 
 to tlieir rank ; the captains contribute six guineas a 
 year, the lieutenants five guineas, and the ensigns 
 four guineas, then we always have a collection at the 
 end of the year to cover any deficiency. 
 
 655. What is the total cost of your band ? — Not 
 less than 100/. a year ; then we found uniforms for 
 the band, which were paid for by tho officers. 
 Nothing tends so much to bring the men together as 
 a band ; and when it plays on the parade groimd, 
 the members come there and bring their friends 
 with them, and they can walk about there just as well 
 as they could in a park. 
 
 656. Do you pay anything to your adjutant ia 
 addition to what ho receives from the Government '■' 
 —No. 
 
 657. {Lord Oversto?ie.) You have spoken of the 
 expenses which fall upon the officers, do you thiidv 
 that the pivssure of that expense tends to check or 
 discourage persons from undertaking the duty of 
 officers, or to induce those who have undertaken 
 it to resign ? — No, I cannot say so. 
 
 658. Do you think that the expense which now 
 falls not necessarily, but which morally presses upon 
 the officers is at all a serious consideration with 
 them ? — I do not find it so in my own case in the 
 7th Surrey. The officers feel that as they hold com- 
 missions they ought to subscribe handsomely. 
 
 659. Do you think that a direct money grant from 
 the Government is expedient for the purpose of 
 supporting the volunteer movement ? — I do most 
 decidedly ; I believe that tho circumstances of every 
 corps differ. I know that the circumstances of mine 
 differ from others. 
 
 660. Do you consider that the sense of receiving 
 direct pecuniary assistance from the Government 
 would invalidate the voluntary principle upon which 
 the whole force is founded ? — Not in the least, as there 
 would be no money payment to the volunteers. 
 
 661. Do you think that persons would not feel that 
 either tho honour of belonging to a volunteer corps 
 or their free discretion as a volunteer body was in- 
 validated by the sense that they received direct 
 pecuniary assistance ? — Not the least in the world. 
 The assistance would be /^direct. 
 
 662. If direct pecuniary assistance were given by 
 
 F 4' 
 
 Afaj. M. 
 litrvsj'vrd. 
 
 ■•JO M;iv 1862
 
 40 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. M. 
 Beresfurd. 
 
 30 May 1862. 
 
 the Government, do you contemplate that it should 
 be given to the commanding officer ? — Yes. 
 
 663. Should it be placed in his hands under 
 certain restrictions or perfectly free ? — Under restric- 
 tions, that they should give a proper account of it. 
 In my own case it would be quite immaterial ; I 
 want money to meet the expense of cleaning the 
 arms. I think that that should be defrayed by the 
 Government. 
 
 664. Do you think it is necessary that the money 
 should be given direct to the commanding officer, 
 subject to specific appropriations, or not, or would you 
 be satisfied that the Government should intervene in 
 a more direct form, such as bearing the expenses 
 necessary for cleaning arms, for rent of quarters, 
 parade ground, and so forth ? — I should certainly 
 advise that the Government should accompany any 
 grant of that kind with restrictions. 
 
 665. If it be accompanied by restriction, that is 
 to say by specific appropriations, would not that 
 necessarily involve the rendering of a very accurate 
 account by every commanding officer, and a very 
 strict supervision of that account ? — Decidedly ; but 
 every commanding officer ought to be prepared to 
 give such an account. 
 
 666. Have you considered the extent of the 
 ministerial trouble and the cost which this would 
 involve ? — I should think it would be very small 
 indeed ; the accuracy of the books should be certified 
 by one individual ; an auditor or accountant who 
 should examine the accounts, and they are very 
 simple. 
 
 667. (Col. MacMurdo.) Would it be very easy 
 to do that for 1,500 corps ? — I suppose that one 
 accountant could do it easily for all the metropolitan 
 corps. 
 
 668. {Lord Overstone.) Do you think that the 
 placing of the money directly in the hands of the 
 commanding ofiicer would generate any feeling in the 
 members of the corps generally that they were 
 entitled to exercise some sort of control through the 
 medium of public opinion upon the conduct of the 
 commanding officer in the distribution of that money ? 
 — I think not. 
 
 669. You do not find that the desire through the 
 medium of public opinion on the part of the corps 
 generally to control the action of the commanding 
 officer is inconvenient ? — Not in the least. 
 
 670. You have not experienced that evil in any 
 degree ? — No ; I am quite unfettered by committees 
 or courts of any sort. 
 
 671. {Lord Elcho.) Have you a financial com- 
 mittee ? — I have a regimental committee, which is 
 called together once in three months, or oftener, as 
 may be necessary, but it assists rather than controls 
 me. I have our accounts audited every year by 
 two auditors selected from the officers. The money, 
 which is all paid into the bank, is in the custody of 
 the treasurer of the regiment, Mr. Johnson, the 
 chairman of the quarter sessions for Surrey. When 
 I want money he sends me a cheque. The Govern- 
 ment might avoid all expense of accountants if on 
 giving pecuniary assistance to corps it were stipulated 
 that every corps should appoint a treasurer, who should 
 be a gentleman of known respectability, and that 
 two officers should act as auditors to check the cash 
 book, as in the 7th Surrey. 
 
 672. What sum of money do you contemplate 
 receiving from the Government ? — I think it would 
 be from 250Z. to 300/. a year. 
 
 673. Upon the supposition that you received 300Z. 
 a year from the Government, what number of men in 
 really an efficient state do you conceive you could 
 maintain ? — Before I answer that question I should 
 wish to be informed whether the Government pro- 
 poses to do anything with respect to new uniforms. 
 
 674. My question was framed upon the assumption, 
 according to your own principle, that you were to 
 receive a direct pecuniary subvention from the 
 Government, not exceeding 300/., to be paid to you as 
 commanding offlter, and then in consideration of that 
 
 I ask you what number of men you think you could 
 maintain in a perfectly efficient state ? — I should say 
 decidedly at least 400 men, and if the restriction 
 which I at present labour under were removed, a 
 very considerably larger number, 600 men. 
 
 675. What restriction do you i-efer to ? — I mean 
 the limitation of the companies. 
 
 676. That having been imposed by the Lord Lieu- 
 tenant ? — Yes. 
 
 677. {£nrl oj Ducie.) If the number of your com- 
 panies was increased the subvention from the Govern- 
 ment would require to be proportionally increased, 
 or do you mean that the 300/. would enable you to 
 bring out 600 men ? — I spoke of 10s. a head ; I think 
 that that would just cover it, if the rank and file are 
 still expected to subscribe. 
 
 678. (Lord 0versl07ie.) Having made the state- 
 ment that the sum of 300/. from the Government 
 would be amply sufficient to assist you, upon the 
 assumption that you receive that amount of aid from 
 the Government what number of men could j'ou hold 
 out an assurance would be maintained in a perfect 
 state of efficiency ? — I should say at least 400. 
 
 679. {Lord Elcho.) You said if the restrictions 
 were withdrawn ; that I suppose means if you were 
 enabled to form more companies ? — Yes. 
 
 680. What is the present strength of your com- 
 panies ? — I have two of 80, and the rest, which are 
 supposed to be 60, were formed before we were 
 limited to 100 ; they are approaching 60 or below 
 that. 
 
 681. Your present maximum strength is 100 is it 
 not ? — Yes. 
 
 682. You say that you have companies of 80, and 
 of various strengths, what number do you average 
 per company on parade in an ordinary battalion drill. 
 Do you see half of your com23auy on the average ? — 
 Not on the average. 
 
 683. Suppose a company is composed of 80 men, do 
 you see 40 of that company ? — Not every Saturday. 
 
 684. Supposing a company to consist of 80 men, 
 do you see on the average 25 ? — Yes ; I should say 
 so, quite that. 
 
 685. At your battalion parade do you generally 
 drill with six or with four companies ? — With six on 
 Saturdays, if the muster be strong enough. 
 
 686. What is your average strength ? — I cannot 
 say at this moment. 
 
 687. Would it be better if they were stronger ? — 
 Decidedly. 
 
 688. Is there a prospect of a great increase in your 
 corps ? — Yes, decidedly. 
 
 689. Do you mean if you could add to the number 
 of the companies borne upon your books ? — Yes. 
 
 690. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Do you mean an in- 
 crease of the number of the companies, or an acces- 
 sion of strength to the existing companies ? — I mean 
 to the number of the companies ; I wish to increase 
 the number of the companies. 
 
 691. {Lord Elcho.) Do you think that if you had 
 eight companies you would have enough, and do you 
 believe that you would have eight full companies on 
 parade ? — Not as a regular thing ; I should never 
 have less than six. 
 
 692. What is the largest muster that you have ever 
 had ? — I had at Brighton 320 men. 
 
 693. Including the band ? — Yes ; and I think that 
 the largest nuister that I have ever had was about 
 last May twelve months, when we were inspected by 
 Colonel MacMurdo ; then there were nearly 400 men 
 present of all ranks. 
 
 694. Is it desirable in your opinion to increase the 
 maximum number in the companies to 150 ? — It 
 would not be of the least use in the world. 
 
 695. Would it not have the effect of taking more 
 men on to tlie parade ? — No. 
 
 696. If you had 150 men on your books, you would 
 be more likely, would you not, to have a good muster 
 than if you have only 100 men per company? — If 
 you have more companies there is a competition on
 
 TO INQUIRb: IXTO THE CONDITION Ol' Tllf: VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 ■i] 
 
 the part of the men of the severa! companies, ii spirit 
 of emulation. 
 
 697. Tliat would equally exist, would it not, if 3'nu 
 increased the number in the companies ? — No; if you 
 raised the maximum to 150, I do not see how you 
 could have so many companies. 
 
 698. Would it not be better to have six companies 
 of 150 men, thereby insuring a good muster on jjarade, 
 than to have eight companies of 100 each, which 
 would result in having a much smaller number on 
 parade per company ? — I think not. 
 
 699. (Col. 3IucMiinIo.) I understood you to say 
 that you could not bring in those 40 men to whom 
 you referred unless they came in as a distinct body ? 
 — No, unless I could admit the officer with them. 
 Such bodies of men generally come accompanied by 
 some gentleman who wants a commission. 
 
 700. Could they not come in by way of filling up 
 the other com]ianies ? — Yes, I could do that. I have 
 one or two weak companies, and I could amalgamate 
 them and call them companies No. 3, or No. 5, or 
 No. 6. I was offered over 40 men on Saturday last. 
 
 701. How did you propose to bring in the leader 
 as an officer, was there a vacancy in the establish- 
 ment ? — No ; it was because there was no vacancy 
 that I could not accept the men, the men would not 
 come without him. 
 
 702. [Lord FJcho.) What probability is there that 
 the uniform will be renewed in your regiment ? — I 
 think it will last another year. 
 
 703. But when worn out what probability of a 
 renewal will there be ? — I do not believe tiuit 12i 
 por-centage of the men will renew their uniforms, that 
 is, I do not believe that they will be able to renew 
 them. 
 
 704. {Lord Overstone.) Why do you fix upon that 
 remai-kable per centage of 12|- per cent. ? — In this 
 way ; I look at the men who have paid a guinea lor 
 the year, the number is 78, and that is a good deal 
 more than 12|- per cent., but there is a considerable 
 number, in fact I do not know of more than about 
 that per-centage of the men who are able to find their 
 own uniforms. 
 
 705. {Lord Elcho.) Have you any scheme in your 
 own mind for the renewal of the uniforms ? — None 
 whatever, except by Government assistance. 
 
 706. Did you include in the 10,<. a head whieli you 
 mentioned the renewal of the uniform ? — Certainly 
 not. 
 
 707. Then yon look upon the lO.f. a head, I pre- 
 sume, merely to meet certain incidental expenses 
 which are common to all volunteer corps ? — Yes. 
 
 708. Not including clothing ?— No. 
 
 709. That is a separate branch of the subject ? — 
 Quite so. 
 
 710. Do you anticipate that without receiving 
 assistance in the shape of clothing from the Govern- 
 ment, your corps will cease to exist ? — I do, or the 
 greater part of it. 
 
 711. In what way, if you could obtain what you 
 wish, would you desire the Government's assistance 
 to be given ; in cloth, or in the uniform made up, 
 or in the shape of a sum of money towards it ?■ — I 
 should much prefer it in money, my experience of 
 Government cloth is, that I do not think it is of 
 much value. 
 
 112. {Col. Mac Murdo.) What has been your ex- 
 perience of the quality of Government cloth ? — In 
 some regiments, such as I inspected the clothing of at 
 Dover, I never saw more scandalous stuff in my life. 
 When I was at Dover I went into that question 
 particularly, and the cloth was full of shoddy. 
 
 713. What are you views as to tlie way in which 
 assistance should be given by the Government ? — It 
 should be given in money, with restrictions as to 
 accounting for it ; there should bo some checks. I am 
 perfectly satisfied that you could get the uniforms 
 made up of better materials and quite as cheaply as 
 the Government could supply the cloth and people 
 to make them. 
 
 714. What amount would you consider requisite to 
 
 provide for such an outlay — how much per head ? — 
 The first uniform that we had in the 7tli Surrey cost 
 11. lOi'., including belts and everything; I reduced that 
 down to four guineas. 
 
 715. What is the present cost of your unilnrm ? — 
 Four guineas. 
 
 716. {Sir ^i. C«/«yjie//.) How long will the uniform 
 last ? — Four years. 
 
 717. {Lieut.- Col. Barf /clot.) Of what does the 
 uniform consist ? — A tunic, trowsers, cap, and belts. 
 
 718. Do you wear a helmet ? — No. 
 
 1\9. {Viscount Hardiiiijc.) You have referred to 
 80 men who you said did not attend in consequence of 
 being in debt to you, are they effective members 
 
 lificufortl. 
 .^ll Mav 18G2. 
 
 -No, 
 bond 
 
 now ? — Not many of them. 
 
 720. And they are not returned as such ?- 
 they are not. The returns which I made are 
 
 Jidc returns. 
 
 721. {Lord Elcho.) Would you undertaki' to keep 
 up your regiment and clothe it and find all that is 
 requisite, including incidental expenses, for 1/. a man ? 
 — The question of clothing is imminent now, but I 
 think I could if the 1/. per man were paid on the 
 nominal strength of tiic regiment. 
 
 722. {Sir A. Campbell.) If either the cloth for the 
 uniforms or the uniforms themselves were supplied 
 at the public expense, what security would the Go- 
 vei'nment have that the men would remain in the 
 I'eginient until the uniforms were worn out? — None 
 at all while the present regulations last, under which 
 a man can resign in 14 days. 
 
 723. Would you propose to alter that regulation ? 
 — I think not, if you altered it I think it would be 
 filial to the movement. 
 
 724. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) Is your recruiting con- 
 fined to any particular area ? — No, it consists of men 
 chiefly in that particular neighbourhood. Camber- 
 well, Newington, and Soulhwark. 
 
 725. Does the fact of its not being so confined at 
 all interfere with others, or are you interfered with 
 by others ? — -No, not that I am aware of. 
 
 726. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelof.) How do you appoint 
 your non-commissioned oflicers ? — -According to merit. 
 I make all the appointments myself. 
 
 727. {Chairman.) Do you appoint all the officers as 
 well as non-commissioned officers ? — Yes, I recom- 
 mend the whole of them to the lord lieutenant. 
 
 728. Have you anything further to state ?— I wish 
 just to mention with reference to taxes that the year 
 before last I applied to the Inland Kevonue Depart- ■ 
 ment to remit the house tax ; they had the matter for 
 a considerable time under consideration, and they very 
 considerately waived that tax, except a small sum for 
 the Serjeant-major's quarters. I then also made an 
 appeal for the purpose of being excused poor rates, 
 and I was told by the vestry in Kennington that if 
 they had the authority of the Government they would 
 be very glad to do it, that they wished to let us off 
 all those taxes if possible, but that authority has not 
 been obtained. 
 
 729. Those apply to the headquarters of the regi- 
 ment ? — Yes, I do not think that tlie serjeant-major's 
 quarters should be taxed, he is there as having the 
 custody of the armoury and of the books. 
 
 730. {Col. MacMurdo.) They are on the premises, 
 the headquarters ? — Yes. 
 
 731. ( Chairman.) Ilaveyou any further observation 
 to make ? — I may mention that I have no rifle range, 
 and that each year I am obliged to go as a beggar to 
 Lord Elcho, who has very kindly acceded to my re- 
 quest. It is the only thing that we want besides 
 money, and if he had refused we should have had to 
 go down to Plumstcad. The rifle range is our only 
 great want. 
 
 732. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) You collect _your arms in 
 the armoury ? — Yes. 
 
 733. It seems to be more frequently the practice to 
 leave them in the possession of the men, do you find 
 any difficulty with the men as to that ? — No, they 
 chiefly live in the neighbourhood, and when we march 
 home to headquarters, they deposit their arms. 
 
 G
 
 42 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. M. 
 Beresford. 
 
 30 May 1862. 
 
 734. After the drills does every man come and 
 leave liis arms there ? — Yes. 
 
 735. And somebody else cleans them? — Yes, I 
 have two men constantly cleaning arms. 
 
 736. {Sir A. Campbell.) You do not let the men 
 clean them ? — No. 
 
 737. ( Chairman.) Do you consider it is desirable 
 that there should be a certain number of drill days 
 fixed for every year ? — Most certainly ; and that the 
 several corps of a county should drill together. I 
 have been out twice with Lord Elcho's regiment, and 
 once with the 12th Surrey. 
 
 738. {Col MacMurdo.) Do you think that the 
 War Office should regulate these things ? — ^Yes. 
 
 739. But how would it be if certain corps declined 
 to come ? — I do not think that they would if the 
 commanding officers were not allowed to indulge 
 their own views about these things so much. If you 
 put it honestly to the men, and say " Would you like 
 to go out," the men would always wish to go. 
 
 740. {Lord Elcho.) Have you found that attend- 
 ance at brigade field days aifects the subsequent 
 battalion di-ills ? — Yes, for a month at least. 
 
 741. You then find a falling off ? — Yes, but after 
 a month it comes round. 
 
 742. {Sir A. Campbell.) But beforehand does it 
 improve the attendance ? — It does decidedly ; I say 
 to the men, " Unless you attend so many drills or 
 come pretty regularly you will not be allowed to fall 
 in," and that has always had a good eft'ect ; they then 
 have something in store. 
 
 743. {Chairman.) Have you any other further 
 suggestion to make ? — Only this, that I think com- 
 manding officers should not have the power of re- 
 fusing to let their men go if they do not choose to go 
 themselves to Brighton, Wimbledon, or other places 
 on the occasion of grand field days, where they 
 might fall in with other regiments, or go individually 
 in uniform to those places ; I say that if they exercise 
 that sort of authority it is enough to damp the 
 ardour of those men. 
 
 744. Do you propose that the men should be 
 allowed, when their own regiment is not going, to 
 go themselves and join other regiments if the com- 
 manding officers of those other regiments approved of 
 their falling in ? — Yes. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Viscount 
 EnfielJ. 
 
 Viscount Enfield examined. 
 
 745. {Chairman.) I believe you are no longer a 
 volunteer officer ? — No ; I am honorary colonel. 
 
 746. The Commissioners understand that you wish 
 to make some suggestions to them ? — Hardly sugges- 
 tions. I thought perhaps I should be able to answer 
 any questions which the Commissioners might think 
 fit to put to me, having had some 16 or 17 months' 
 experience in the command of a regiment. 
 
 747. Has your experience in command of a regi- 
 ment led you to suppose that the volunteers can be 
 maintained in their present state of efficiency ? — I 
 should say certainly not. 
 
 748. In what respect do you think there is any 
 failure ? — Simply in financial matters ; that is the 
 great difficulty. I do not think there is any falling 
 off in the enthusiasm of the men or the good feeling 
 which exists among the officers and the men, but I 
 believe, speaking only from my experience of my own 
 regiment, that the financial difficulty is so great that, 
 unless some means are adopted to remedy that, there 
 will be a great falling o3"in the numbers. 
 
 749. Had you any regimental fund ? — Yes. 
 
 750. Did the officers contribute to that fund to a 
 certain extent ? — The annual subscription was a 
 guinea for all ranks, but the officers have now a 
 graduated scale of expenses as to their band fund, 
 which was a great disturbing element in my corps as 
 to the finances. We pay in proportion to our rank. 
 
 751. Did you keep the expenses of the band sepa- 
 rate and distinct ? — Yes. 
 
 752. Did your annual subscriptions cover the ex- 
 penses of the corps ? — Our annual meeting was held 
 at the end of January, and this year we had a slight 
 balance in hand ; all the expenses of last year were 
 covered. 
 
 753. ( Viscount Hardinge.) At what date was that ? 
 — I think it was on the 14!h of January, but I am 
 not quite certain. 
 
 754. {Chairman.) Did the members of your corps 
 clothe themselves entirely ? — I believe so, from the 
 time I had the command entirely. I am not sure 
 whether before it was a consolidated battalion some 
 of the uniforms were not given, but every man since 
 I had the command paid for his own uniform. 
 
 755. Without any assistance from the regimental 
 fund ? — Yes ; except the uniform of the band. 
 
 756. When the clothing requires renewal, do you 
 think that the men will be able to bear the expense 
 of it ? — I have great doubts on that point. If I were 
 asked to say yes or no, I should say no. The uniform 
 is very inexpensive ; the whole cost, including the 
 shako, was under 5/. 
 
 757. Did that cover the accoutrements, as well as 
 
 the cost of the clothing ? — It would cover the cost of 
 the old accoutrements, but not of the new pouch and 
 belt that we were to have. 
 
 758. The uniform consists of a tunic, trowsers, and 
 shako ? — Yes ; and a forage cajj. 
 
 759. No knapsack ? — No. 
 
 760. Any cloak or great-coat ? — There is a great- 
 coat, but the men in the regiment do not assume it 
 generally. Any member who chose to wear it was 
 allowed to appear in it. I have not included the cost 
 of the great-coat. 
 
 761. What was the jn-incij^al expense ? — The band. 
 If it had not been for that, I believe that my corps 
 would have been able to pay its way ; but instead of 
 being content with one band it liad two bands ; and 
 I believe that to be the disturbing element in the 
 iinances of a portion of the volunteer force. 
 
 762. What did the bands cost ? — I am afraid I 
 cannot state the exact sum, but I think it cost very 
 nearly 300/. a year. The main portion of our ex- 
 penses was something like 380/., which included a 
 share of a rifle range, headquarters, pay to the 
 Serjeant major and to drill instructors. 
 
 763. Did you give any additional pay to the drill 
 instructors ? — Yes, in two cases. I think we gave 
 quarters and 7s. a week to a musketry instructor and 
 armourer serjeaut, wlio came with very good I'ecom- 
 mendations. They would not come for the Govern- 
 ment allowance, and we gave them Is. a week extra 
 and quarters. 
 
 764. Did you pay anything extra to the adjutant ? 
 — Not to my knowledge. I believe not, except quar- 
 ters. He lived rent free in our head quarters, where 
 the serjeant-major and the armourer Serjeant lived. 
 
 765. The bands were the great expense ? — Yes. 
 
 766. Would not one band have been sufficient ? — 
 Quite so ; and I always tried to induce them to be 
 content with one band ; but I was over-ruled, both 
 by the officers and by the volunteers who assisted 
 in the council which we had to conduct the alFau's 
 of the regiment, and I gave it up as hopeless. 
 
 767. {Lord Overstone.) Did I rightly understand 
 you to say that in your opinion it is essential that the 
 Government should intervene in a pecuniary way for 
 the purpose of supporting an expenditure which you 
 have stated to be, in your judgment, an improper 
 one ? — Certainly not. I stated, I believe, that I was 
 afraid, unless some change was adopted as to the 
 volunteer force, it might go down in numbers, but I 
 did not venture' to suggest that the Government 
 should bear any additional pecuniary expenses. I 
 consider that to be a very delicate question, and a 
 very difficult one to deal with. I have not made up
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONBTTION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN HREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 4-3 
 
 my iiiind upon it. I said thai uuless some change 
 wiis ailoplcd as to the way in which the expenses of 
 the volunteer corps were met, that there would he, I 
 feared, a very great falling off in the numbers. 
 
 7(58. You stated that the <".\|)enditure in your corps 
 was 300/. a ye.ar for bauds, and 380/. for other expen- 
 diture ? — Yes ; speaking from memory. 
 
 769. You consider that the cost for the bands was 
 very extravagant ? — Yes. 
 
 770. Under those circumstances, do you not think 
 tliat a reasonable and proper regard to economy and 
 good management on the part of your corps would he 
 the proper remedy for its difficulties ? — Yes ; but 
 there is this : I have .always found, both at the meet- 
 ings of the council of the regiment, that wore held 
 once a month, and also at the annual meetings, that 
 the volunteers would get up and say that unless they 
 had the advantage of two bands to accompany them 
 when they marched out the regiment would probably 
 not. attend ; and last year, on Whit Monday, an 
 incident occurred. We were to march out into the 
 country for battalion drill. The drum and fife band 
 attended, but the full band did not attend, and several 
 of the men fell out and said that they would not go 
 out unless they had the two bands to accompany them. 
 I remonstrated with them, but it was of no avail, and 
 the men left me. 
 
 771. {Sir A. Campbell.) Did the men fall out after 
 they had once fallen in ? — Y'es. 
 
 772. (Col. MacMurdo.) What course did you pur- 
 sue ? — I stated that I considered it to be a very 
 unsoldierlike proceeding, but there are no means of 
 enforcing discipline ; unless a man chooses to obey he 
 may give me notice and go away ; I thought it best 
 not to take any further notice of it. 
 
 773. You are aware, I presume, that you could 
 have {placed those men under a guard during the drill 
 and have suspended them afterwards ? — Yes, but that 
 would have been rather a harsh measure, and I 
 thought it not wise to adopt it. 
 
 774. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Y'ou are perhaps not 
 prepared to offer any suggestions to the Commission 
 as to the shape in which any further aid should be 
 given to the volunteer force ? — Only this, that sup- 
 posing it was determined that additional Government 
 aid should be granted in money, I should be very 
 sorry to see it vested in anybody but the commanding 
 officer ; supposing that he had a certain sum placed 
 in his hands, and he 'Wis held responsible by the 
 Government for it, I thiuk there would not be such 
 dithcnlties arise ; for instance, with regard to main- 
 taining two bands, the commanding officer might say 
 to his counsel I am responsible for this sum of money, 
 and I will have it laid out in the most economical 
 and best manner for the interests of the corps ; but if 
 the conunanding officer was to be controlled in any 
 way by the members of the regiment as a council I 
 think there would be great difficulties, which I should 
 be very sorry to see a man placed in. Suppose a 
 commanding oflicers with four or five other ofiicers to 
 .assist him, some disputes and jealousies would most 
 probably arise, but I do not think that if the money 
 were placed in the hands of the commanding officer it 
 would be wasted. 
 
 775. You have probably heard the question can- 
 vassed as to the shape in which Government aid 
 should be afforded ; would you prefer a capitation 
 grant to a gratuitous issue of clothing by the Govern- 
 ment ? — Individually I should like 1/. a head for each 
 efficient man present at the official inspection of the 
 corps. 
 
 776. (Lord Ovcrstone.) In your judgment could a 
 Government justify itself to the public in giving 
 any direct pecuniary aid to maintain the efficiency of 
 a regiment which declares that it will not perform its 
 duties or keep up its organization unless it has two 
 bauds .at its command ? — I should say cert.ainly not ; 
 but permit me to say that it is a very different ques- 
 tion where it is money voted by the members of a 
 corps, and where it is money which is contributed by 
 the Government ; I think that when the volunteers 
 
 contribute it themselves they look upon their corps 
 ■as self sustaining, and they think that they have a 
 fair right to take exception to the arrangements made 
 by their commanding officers or the council. I think, 
 .as I stated before, that the commanding officer ought 
 to be held alone responsible, and he might then be 
 able more easily to check any attempt at insubordi- 
 nation or interference as to the disposal of money 
 than in the case of my own regiment, where there is 
 the difficulty which I have mentioned as to the two 
 bands. 
 
 777. I ask you whether in the case of a corps 
 which exhausts its own available funds in the main- 
 tenance of an extriivagant band, the Government 
 could justify itself to the public for granting any 
 pecuniary assistance direct from the Government 
 funds for the purpose of meeting the other more 
 necessary expenditure of the regiment ? — When your 
 Lordship uses the words " exhausting its own avail- 
 " able funds," I must remind you tiiat I have already 
 stated that we had a balance in hand, even after the 
 expenses of the two bands were paid. 
 
 778. I mean so far exhausting their own funds as 
 to require Government aid? — That has always struck 
 me as one of the most difScult points with regard to 
 the volunteer force, as to whether the Government 
 would be justified in granting a rate in aid for what 
 I must call very extriivagant expenditure as to bauds. 
 Everybody h.as their own hobby upon that subject, 
 but my aim always has been, if possible, to put down 
 extravagant bands. 
 
 779. Do you not think that the volunteer principle 
 in org.auization is this, that so long .as they provide 
 for their own exiienditurc they are entitled to exer- 
 cise the most free discretion as to that. But before 
 they can come with reason, or with propriety, to ask 
 for a subvention from the Government, tliey must 
 come .as it were with clean hands, that is, they must 
 .show that they are not incurring an expenditure 
 beyond that which is reasonable and necessary for 
 the avowed purposes of their organization ? — Most 
 certainly. 
 
 780. {Lord Elcho) Suppose we leave the band 
 out of the question entirely, whether it be one or two, 
 do you consider that there will be subscriptions 
 enough raised in your corps, so that when the 
 uniforms come to be worn out there will be a suffi- 
 cient number of men in your corps able to supply 
 themselves with a second suit, so as to ensure the 
 permanence of that corps? — I have very great doubts 
 upon that subject. 
 
 781. Wholly irrespective of the bands? — Yes ; I 
 have not taken the question of the uniform into con- 
 sideration ; at present the uniform is in very good 
 order, and I hope it will last this year and another 
 year ; but I have never considered the question of 
 the expense of the uniform. 
 
 782. Are there many men in arrear with their sub- 
 scriptions in your corps? — This year I cannot say ; but 
 last year we wore obliged to take legal i)roceedings 
 against some of them who were in .arrear ; and when 
 the summonses were issued the men came forward 
 .and paid. And we had a surplus in hand after wc 
 had paid all our expenses. 
 
 783. Putting all extrav.agance out of the question, 
 for bands or otherwise, whether they .are met by extra 
 subscriptions or the subscriptions of the corps, I pre- 
 sume that you consider a band on a moderate scale 
 an essentiiil component )iart of a regiment ? — Yes ; 
 one band at a moderate expen.so ought certainly to bo 
 kept up. 
 
 784. Without a hand, I suppose there would be 
 very great difficulty in getting the men to march ? — I 
 think it would be almost imjiossible. 
 
 785. And the extent to which the 'b.and is carried 
 is entirely a question of prudence ? — Yes. 
 
 786. (Chairman.) Your Lordship's opinion .as to 
 a capitation grant has no reference whatever to the 
 clothing ?— No. I have not considered that question; 
 but I cannot help thinking that in some corps there 
 would be a great feeling, amounting, I was going to 
 
 Visrnunt 
 KufiM. 
 
 )!) lM:iy 18r,2.
 
 H 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 V/SCOIIItt 
 
 J£>ijiel<l. 
 30 Jlay 1SC2. 
 
 say, to degradation ; and certainly that is the nearest 
 to what 1 desire to express. I think that the men 
 woukl dislike to be clothed at the Government ex- 
 pense ; but that they would not dislike knowing that 
 a sum of money was placed in the commanding oiii- 
 cer's hands to keep up their status. 
 
 787. {Viscoitiif JIarduiffe.) Would the men mind 
 having cloth issued to them ? — I do not think they 
 would mind that. I think that if a proposal were 
 made to my own regiment, and they were asked 
 whether they would prefer Government assistance in 
 the shape of 1/. or I5s., or whether they would prefer 
 having cloth issued at the contract price, they would 
 say that they would prefer the money at so much 
 per head instead. 
 
 788. (Lord Elcho.) You would not contemplate, 
 whether it was I5s. or 11., that the money should be 
 given to the man himself under any circumstances ? 
 — Most decidedly not. I think that that would lead 
 to extravagance, and all the evils of the present 
 system would be tenfold increased. 
 
 789. {Chairman.) The money being given to the 
 commanding officer, the application of it would be 
 limited to certain items ? — Yes ; and he could resist 
 any application of the money to what he considered 
 unfair purposes. 
 
 790. ( Viscount IIardi?igc.) What security would 
 the Government have that the money was properly 
 expended ? — The security would perhaps be difficult 
 to get ; but every commanding officer, I should say, 
 ought to send in every year a statement of the exact 
 expenses to the proper authorities, with a balance 
 sheet, supposing that the aid came in the shape of 
 money. 
 
 791. Such an account would have to be examined 
 and audited by the Government, would it not ? — I 
 think so, in order to ensure that the money had been 
 fairly expended. 
 
 792. {Lord Ovcrstone.) Do you mean an account 
 giving a general statement of how the money had 
 been expended, or an account accompanied with 
 vouchers to be regularly audited ? — The more closely 
 it was examined the better, but that perhaps would 
 entail a great deal of further expense at th^ War 
 Office ; probably they would require to have more 
 clerks and more persons to look into those vouchers ; 
 but a plain statement on the one hand of so much for 
 headquarters, so much for armourer Serjeant, so much 
 for band, so much for rifle range, so much for ex- 
 penses for drill instructors, and so much for other 
 expenses, specifying them, would, i think, fully answer 
 the purpose. 
 
 793. {Sir A. Campbell.) Certified of course by the 
 commanding officers ?— Yes, something like what 
 takes place in the militia. " I have examined these 
 " accounts, and, to the best of my belief, they are 
 " correct." 
 
 794. ( Viscount Ilardinge.) Are j'ou aware how 
 many corps there are in the force generally ? — No. 
 
 795. Are you aware that there are about 1,500 ? — 
 No, I have no notion Iiow many there are. 
 
 796. If the vouchers were [jroduced according to 
 your proposal the War Office would have to look into 
 the accounts of 1,500 corps? — Yes, and I suppose 
 that that would entail very great additional ex- 
 pense in clerks. I think that something might be 
 allowed for the discretion of the commanding officer, 
 and that a simple statement with a balance sheet of 
 the expenses and receipts on the one hand with his 
 certificate at the bottom, stating that he had ex- 
 amined the accounts, and that to the best of his belief 
 or upon his honour he believed them to be correct, 
 would be as fair and simple a way of meeting the 
 difliculty as any other. 
 
 797. {Chairman.) The establishment of your corps 
 is 10 companies of 100 men each ? — Yes. 
 
 798. How many men were enrolled ? — I think 815. 
 
 799. Were they all of tlio artizan class ? — They 
 varied ; two companies were not of the artizan class ; 
 they were composed of men rather in a better position 
 
 of life, — clerks in offices ; but the other companies 
 consisted almost entirely of the artizan class. 
 
 800. {Sir A. Campbell.) What have been your 
 musters ? — About 50 per cent, on great occasions. 
 I think last year that I had exactly 50 per cent, 
 present ; I never had more. 
 
 801. At the ordinary battalion drills what has been 
 the muster ? — They vary very much ; sometimes very 
 bad indeed. I never had more than 50 jjcr cent. I 
 took down 50 per cent, to Wimbledon, and 50 per 
 cent, to Brighton. 
 
 802. {Lieut. Col. Bartfelot.) What is your strength 
 at the present time ? — I think it is 610. 
 
 803. {Col. Mac Murdo.) — Have the numbers fallen 
 off ? — Yes ; very much indeed ; men are not able to 
 pay their subscriptions, and they have come and said 
 " I am insolvent, and must beg to have my name 
 struck off." 
 
 804. ( J'iscount Ilardinge.) Do you give any extra 
 allowance to the adjutant ? — I believe not ; if anj'- 
 thing is given, it is done without my sanction and 
 knowledge ; they do give him quarters. 
 
 805. {Lieut. Col. Bartfelot.) Do you recruit in any 
 jiarticular part of London, or all over London ? — 
 I believe it is understood that we do not recruit out 
 of our own district ; there is a certain district which 
 is assigned to a certain number of regiments. 
 
 806. {Lord Elcho.) Would it be advisable, do you 
 think, to double up small regiments?— Certainly. 
 
 807. And to divide London into districts, per- 
 mitting men to volunteer only within their own 
 districts ? — Yes, if possible ; I think that would pre- 
 vent a little poaching on the part of commanding 
 officers, and it would be a great advantage. 
 
 808. Would the men like it, do you think ?— I 
 think that it would work practically well. I find in 
 my own case that the men who have to como a 
 shorter distance to drill attend more punctually than 
 those who have come a longer distance. 
 
 809. {Maj.-Gen. El/re.) Are your arms deposited in 
 the armoury ? — -Yes; I used to call them in four times 
 in the year. I allowed the men to take them home, 
 making the captains of the companies responsible for 
 their production if necessary, for the purj>ose of being 
 kept in proper order. I called them in two or 
 three times in the year, and I generally found them 
 in a very good order. My armoury was not large 
 enough to hold them all ; but it would hold a great 
 many. They are not kept in the armoury, except 
 when called in as I have stated. 
 
 810. {Sir G. A. JVctherall.) Do you limit your re- 
 cruiting to artizans and labourers, and to men who 
 earn a certain amount of wages ? — No; but I require 
 that a man's respectability should be guaranteed by 
 some member of the corps. 
 
 811. {Col. BlacMurdo.) When I inspected your 
 corps last year you had no rifle range. Have you 
 obtained one since ? — Yes ; wo have joined with 
 Colonel Bigg's regiment, the 20th, and with Colonel 
 Jeakes's, the 37th. 
 
 812. In one range ? — Yes ; the 37th, the 29th, and 
 the 20th have one range between tliem. 
 
 813. Where is the range ? — At Willesdcn. 
 
 814. What does it cost each man to go down there? 
 — He is taken there and back for about l*-. 6d. 
 
 815. {Lord Overstone.) If you were personallj- re- 
 sponsible for maintaining the efficiency of the present 
 volunteer movement, what steps would you take ? — 
 With great respect, I must decline answering that 
 question. 
 
 816. What step do you think this Commission ought 
 to recommend for that purpose ? — That is a very wide 
 question, but I think I may sum it up under two 
 heads. First, with regard to expense, I should say so 
 much per man for a regiment which presents a certain 
 number of men at their official ins])ection. I would 
 not pay attention to any returns. I should say that 
 on a given day when a certain number of men 
 are oflieially inspected, I would give that regiment so 
 mucli per head. I will not specify the sum, but I 
 ihiuk II. would be ample. I thiuk it miglu be done
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN (IREAT lUUTAlN. 
 
 ■t5 
 
 for less. Then I would discourage, to the greatest 
 degree the expenditure in bands, wliicli I look U|)on 
 as wholly useless, and consider that they have lieen 
 productire of the greatest mischief with regard to the 
 finances of corps. 
 
 8)7. {Viscount Hardingc.') You would probably 
 qualify your answer when you say the bands are 
 wholly useless^ because you stated before that a corps 
 would probably not be got to march out without a 
 band? — I mean a good drum aud iifo band, whieli could 
 be maintained at a very small expense. T consider that 
 necessai'y, but I think the expense of the brass band 
 
 is a matter which in a rich corps might be aObrded, 
 Init in a i)oor corps ought not to be tolerated. 
 
 SIS. (C/iitiniifi/i.) Have all your men had rilic 
 practice ?■ — We have a range where they might all 
 have gone. 
 
 819. Where actual shooting takes place ? — Yes, but 
 I cannot say that they have all gone. 
 
 820. Have a largo proi)ortii)n gone ? — Yes, but not 
 all. 
 
 821. (Lord Elrho.) Is the expense of attending 
 brigade Jield days borne by (he men thcmoclves ? — 
 Yes, but that has been very trifling. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Visrntint 
 JCvJklH. 
 
 30 May 1862. 
 
 Mr. John Pettie examined. 
 
 Ml. ./. I'caie. 
 
 822. {Chairman.') You belong to the London 
 Scottish Volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 823. What rank do j^ou hold ? — I am colour Ser- 
 jeant. 
 
 82-1. Can you speak to the influence of volunteer- 
 ing on the artisans ? — Yes, I am an artizan. 
 
 825. In what trade arc you occupied ? — In build- 
 ing. 
 
 826. Do you belong to a company composed of 
 artizans ? — No. 
 
 827. Have you observed in the conduct of the 
 artizans of that class who belong to your corps the 
 influence that it has upon their conduct in private 
 life ?— Yes. 
 
 828. Will you just state to the Commissioners 
 what the results of yonr observations have been ? — 
 They have evidently got an object that detaches 
 them from irregular courses, they have fixed times 
 when they know their services will be required, and 
 they prepare for those times, and that causes them 
 to be more regular in their habits in other respects. 
 
 829. You consider that they have improved in 
 their luxbits and that they have become more orderly 
 than they were bL'tbrc ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 830. Do the men in your company find their own 
 uniforms ? — I am not attached to a company which 
 is composed exclusively of artizans ; there are in the 
 London Scottish, or there were originally, 340 who 
 entered as artizans, being admitted without paying 
 any entrance fee; about 50 of those availed them- 
 selves of the privilege of gaining admission without 
 paying the entrance fee, and provided their own 
 uniforms. The others had their uniforms provided 
 for them, with leave to pay by instalments, through 
 a committee of artizans ; at present 170 have paid 
 entirely, and about 110 owe sums ranging from 3.*. 
 to Zl. That is the financial position in which they 
 are ; but if I may volunteer a suggestion, the circum- 
 stances under which we were formed were excep- 
 tional, and any loss that may occur now would be a 
 higher per centage than if we began again with our 
 present experience. 
 
 831. You think that most of the arrears will be 
 paid in the end ? — Not the arrears incurred in this 
 first organization ; there will be an average default of 
 about 10 per cent. My knowledge of the artizan 
 volunteers is not confined to those that I am speaking 
 of in our own corps, but I consider that the average 
 loss will be about 10 per cent., taking in all the corps 
 in the metropolis. 
 
 832. Do you consider that that class of artizans 
 if assisted in that way would be able to find their 
 own uniform, that is, if allowed to pay for it by instal- 
 ments ? — A great number will, but there are other 
 expenses which may cause some to leave in conse- 
 quence of not being able to provide their uniforms, 
 and pay the other expenses also. 
 
 833. Is there not this advantage in a man paying 
 for his own uniform, that he is more likely to take 
 care of it ? — I think not. I think that in all cases 
 where a volunteer is effective he will be cartful of 
 his uniform. 
 
 834. Even if it were provided by the TJovern- 
 uient ? — Yes. 
 
 835. {Lord Oi'crstonc.) Do you think that a man 
 would be as careful of clothing provided at amither 
 person's expense as of clotliing the expense of which 
 was met by himself ? — Yes, I believe so. My opinion 
 is, although I have no facts to sustain it, that ho 
 would be more careful, knowing that it would be 
 subject to inspection. 
 
 836. {Chairmnn.) A volunteer can now quit a 
 regiment on giving 14 days' notice ? — Yes. 
 
 837. Then what security would the Government 
 have, in case they provided the clothing, that the 
 volunteer would not leave the regiment? — It would 
 depend upon the manner in wliich the aid was adr.ii- 
 nistered. If it was administered through the com- 
 manding officer, then it would be his ]U'operty, and 
 would be left when the resignation was accepted. 
 
 838. Do you think that it would be more acceptable 
 to a volunteer to be clothed in that way, and that 
 commanding officers should receive a sum of money 
 to enable them to provide the clothing ? — I believe so ; 
 and there are many things that would make me 
 believe that you would not get any recruits on 
 holding out to them tliat the uniform would be given 
 to them, if it were publicly known that it was to be 
 provided at the expense of the Government ; but if 
 the aid was given through the commanding officers, 
 subject to their discretion in the way of aft'ovding it 
 to such volunteers as might require it and be deemed 
 worthy, then no one could say who had got their 
 uniforms for nothing and who had not. 
 
 839. Can you suggest any means by which to render 
 the volunteer service more acceptable to the artizan 
 class ? — The facilities for shooting might be inii)roved, 
 for ball practice developes a competitive spirit 
 that makes volunteering more attractive ; it is 
 very attractive now amongst them ; many of those 
 who cannot join arc ver}- fond of it ; and there is no 
 jealous}' even amongst the very lowest class of work- 
 men against those who are in the ranks. It is very 
 attractive to many who cannot enter on account of 
 the expense and time necessary, for the number of 
 parades that are always taking place would call 
 upon their time more than they could afford ; and 
 also when they do join they arc able to do nothing 
 but march out aud jiarade. But they like the shoot- 
 ing ; and if there were covered drill grounds in the 
 large towns, or in the parks, and each drill ground 
 had a diminished target, if it was only 50 jairds 
 range, but so as to get them to fire oft" and hit the 
 target. They get a liking to it, which attaches them 
 to the service. I have noticed, that those who can 
 shoot ball, will sacrifice a good deal rather than leave 
 the corps. 
 
 840. Would it not be almost impossible, in populous 
 districts, to provide these rifle grounds ? — It might bo 
 so ; it is a question for the authorities. There are 
 many artizans who have been ardent volunteers, but 
 have become disheartened because^ they cannot get 
 away to ball jjractice ; but I see that the others arc 
 much more strict in their attendance if they can hit 
 the target. 
 
 841. {Sir A. CnmphcU.) Are they more strict in 
 attendance at <irill af'ti'r that? — Yes. 
 
 842. {Major- Gen. Eyre.) Which do lliey l,ike ; 
 
 G 3
 
 46 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Mr. J. Pettie. battalion drill, or company drill, or ball practice ? — 
 I could hardly place them in competition, for they 
 
 3 May 1862 . ^^^ j-^^^j ^j- p.^r^ding, but so soon as they once find 
 that they can shoot they seem to be taken up with 
 that entirely. It engrosses their conversation and 
 attention, and they would be less likely to lose 
 battalion or other drills after that. 
 
 843. That attaches them to the force more than 
 the drills ?— Yes. 
 
 844. And makes them more useful, does it not ? — 
 Yes. As to the usefulness of the force I have a very 
 strong opinion in favour of it, and believe it would 
 largely develop the force. 
 
 845. {Sir G. A. Wctherall.) You have stated that 
 all the men, even those who are in debt now, would 
 be able to pay their instalments for their clothing 
 were it not for other causes of expense. What are 
 those causes of expense ?— There is the yearly sub- 
 scriptions in every corps, and it is too high for 
 artizans. They have also to incur many minor ex- 
 penses, and to many of them time is money. 
 
 846. {Earl of Ducie.) What are the average wages 
 of those artizans of whom you speak ? — They vary 
 from 25s. to 21. a week. 
 
 847. There are none who receive wages as low as 
 20s. a week ? — There are several on my list who 
 came in as artizans with the permission of Lord Elcho, 
 but who are junior clerks, and who receive much 
 smaller wages than artizans, some of them as low as 
 1 5s. a week. They are smart young men, but they 
 cannot pay up so well as the others. 
 
 848. {Lord Elcho.) In point of fact, from your 
 kDOwledge of the wages received by artizans and the 
 salaries received by clerks, there are many of the 
 latter who are much less able to pay their subscrip- 
 tions than many artizans are ? — That is the case. 
 
 849. In the London Scottish corps in which you 
 are, do you believe that ilie artizans who now form 
 a portion of that corps will be able to continue to 
 pay their 11. subscription and to provide themselves 
 with a new uniform ? — I do not think that they will. 
 
 850. Do you consider that unless something is 
 done for them, either in diminishing their subscrip- 
 tion or in helping them to a new uniform, a very 
 large proportion of the artizan element in the London 
 Scottish will disappear and will not be replaced ? 
 
 That will be the case ; 1 know from the remarks 
 
 that I hear made every day amongst them that they 
 will have to resign. 
 
 851. From your experience of the results of volun- 
 teering as evidenced in the class to which you belong, 
 has it had the eflfect of improving the men physically 
 and morally, and generally of making them better 
 members of society ?— -That is my experience. I con- 
 sider, as a jobbing workman, that in the trades with 
 which I am particularly connected their increased 
 money value to an employer is about 3s. a week, that 
 is to say, I believe that a man who is a volunteer is 
 worth 3s. a week more to a jobbing master than a 
 man who is not a volunteer. 
 
 852. Have you found that from your own pessonal 
 experience as an artizan in jobbing labour ? — Yes. I 
 frequently take contracts and employ men to help 
 me ; therefore I speak from experience as well as 
 from observation. 
 
 853. Do you think that experience will be bornr 
 out o-enerally ? — Yes ; whenever a man is wanted foe 
 work. In all firms it may not be so, but when a man 
 is really wanted for a workman, I consider him worth 
 3s. a week more than if he is not a volunteer. 
 
 854. Do you believe that there is an anxious desire 
 on the part of the artizan class to remain in the 
 volunteer force, and on the part of others to join 
 them ? — Yes ; there is. 
 
 855. If they do not join in greater numbers than 
 they hitherto have done, do you believe that that re- 
 sults from any distaste on their part for the service, 
 or that the expenses incidental to it are greater than 
 they can bear ? — It is entirely the expense. You 
 would otherwise be able to have as many men as you 
 
 liked when you wanted them, as they have taken a 
 liking to it. 
 
 856. Supposing it were thought desirable to aid 
 the volunteers in providing a uniform, should you 
 think it desirable to give the uniform to those who 
 first came forward as volunteers, or would you make 
 them provide their own first uniform and only pro- 
 vide them with a second uniform after they had 
 proved that they were efhcicnt, zealous, and well 
 conducted ? — I think it might be necessary to make 
 them pay for their first clothing, it would test their 
 sincerity, and they would feel more independent. But 
 the Government might give the belts and pouches ; 
 there must be some test of their sincerity and motives 
 in joining. 
 
 857. Is this statement which I have heard made 
 true, that there are many artizans who were rather 
 wild in their political views, and who have sobered 
 down and become much more rational in those 
 matters since they have been volunteers ? — I know 
 that their political conduct is different ; as to their 
 opinions I do not know that they have changed, but 
 they are more attached to the Government in every 
 way, and less likely ever to promote political agita- 
 tion. I may state as a fact that the headquarters 
 of political agitation in the metropolis were in John 
 Street, Fitzroy Square, and they have given a com- 
 plete company from that institution, which is now in 
 Cleveland Street ; and I think I may refer to Major 
 Hughes for the character of that company. 
 
 858. That company belongs to Major Hughes's 
 regiment ? — Yes. This place was formerly the liead- 
 quarters of chartism ; and knowing the mechanics and 
 those who have influence with them, I may say that 
 nearly all the men who really have weight are now 
 loyal adherents to the volunteer service. 
 
 859. In forming these artizan corps or companies, 
 what do you consider to be the best plan to adopt, to 
 attempt to amalgamate them with other classes, or 
 to keep them distinct as corps or as companies ? — If 
 one was commencing to organize a regiment, I think 
 it might be best to keep them distinct ; but it would 
 depend upon what class they would be officered by, 
 for they want military men for officers. I think that 
 there is a document in the War Office which came from 
 the first body of artizans that was raised indepen- 
 dently of public support, and they solicited or memo- 
 rialized the War Office, stating that they desired to be 
 officered by military men entirely, and that they did 
 not aspire to any rank above that of Serjeants. 
 
 860. Do you not think from your own experience 
 that perhaps the most comfortable way of organizing 
 them, instead of attempting to mix them with other 
 classes would be to keep them apart in companies in 
 the same regiment ? — That would depend upon whom 
 they are officered from ; they would do the best in 
 that way to be kept apart if they had military gentle- 
 men to officer them ; but they would not like it so well 
 if the persons who were merely richer than themselves 
 were made their officers ; if they were attempted to 
 be formed as artizan corps exclusively they would be 
 better pleased to be officered by military men. 
 
 861. Does not the attendance of the men at their 
 parades depend very much upon the opinion which 
 they have of the captain who commands their com- 
 pany and his efficiency ? — Yes, entirely. 
 
 862. Where you have an efficient captain you 
 generally have an efficient company and good attend- 
 ance ? — Yes, decidedly. 
 
 863. ( Viscount Hardinge.) You have stated that 
 you thought a volunteer artizan was worth 3s. more 
 to his employer than another man not a volunteer ; I 
 suppose you mean both morally and physically ?■ — I 
 think not only morally and physically, but the man 
 who seems to have a motive keeps to his work ; a 
 volunteer has a motive, and you know what it is ; 
 there is nothing in volunteering that can injure the 
 interest of the employer ; if he is a volunteer you 
 know when you can have him ; you know the even- 
 ings that he wants to get away, and that he has in
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 47 
 
 some way got a purpose ; the greatest evil amongst 
 working men is when they arc purposeless. Tiiey 
 are then almost valueless, and have no self-respect. 
 
 864. (Sir G. A. Wetherall.) Discipline gradually Mr. ./. Pettie. 
 
 induces more carei'ui hahits in the men ? — Yes ; it 
 
 also gives them personal dignity. ^° ^'"^ ^^''^■ 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned to Tuesday next at half-past 12 o'clock. 
 
 Tuesday, 3rd June 1862. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Viscount Haedinge. 
 Lord Elcho. 
 
 Lord OVERSTONE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 Lieutenant-Gcneral Sir G. A. Wetherall. 
 Major General Etre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 Major Harcouet. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY" in the Chair. 
 Captain S. Flood Page examined. 
 
 865. {Chairman.') You are adjutant of the London 
 Scottish Eifle Volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 866. Had you previously been adjutant in any other 
 corps ? — Yes ; I was adjutant of the City of Edin- 
 burgh Rifle Corps for nearly a year. 
 
 867. In your opinion, can the rifle volunteer corps 
 be maintained without difiiculty in their present state 
 of efficiency ? — No ; I think there are many ditiiculties. 
 
 868. Will you be kind enough to state to the Com- 
 missioners what those diflieulties are, and how they 
 can be remedied ? — I think that one of the greatest 
 difficulties that we labour under now is the size of our 
 companies. I have made out the averages for the 
 present year of the men of my own regiment on 
 parade, and also of the officers and of the Serjeants, 
 and I find that the number of those we have had on 
 parade is, on the average, one officer to eight men, and 
 one Serjeant to seven men, and the consequence has 
 been that we are compelled on parade to break our 
 companies up, so that although we have eight com- 
 panies in our regiment, we never parade with more 
 than six ; and that in every way has a very bad effect 
 upon our men. The joining of the volunteers is prin- 
 cipally owing to friends, they join a particular corps, 
 and they join a particular company owing to having 
 friends in that corps or that company ; and when 
 they come on to jiarade they are often separated from 
 those friends, and when they find that this has hap- 
 pened once or twice, they stay away and do not come 
 to parade at all. If our companies were increased 
 from 100 to 150 there would be no necessity to break 
 up the companies, and my impression is that the at- 
 tendances on parade then would bo very largely 
 increased. In a military point of view it has a bad 
 effect to parade with very small companies, because 
 when on divisional and brigade field days we parade 
 with larger companies, the movements are done badly ; 
 the movements having been practised with small com- 
 panies, they are then carried out with large companies. 
 
 869. What is the establishment per company in 
 your corps ? — One hundred men of all ranks. 
 
 870. Is that the maximum ? — Yes ; the minimum is 
 60. 
 
 871. What do you think is the average attendance ? 
 — Our average attendance for the whole regiment for 
 the present year, including officers, non-commissioned 
 officers, and men, is only 199. 
 
 872. Speaking of the whole corps ? — Yes. 
 
 873. What has been the average attendance per 
 company ? — 25, including officers and men ; our 
 officers nearly all attend, and a majority of our Ser- 
 jeants always attend ; but I have seen our parades 
 with one officer to five men, and one Serjeant to six 
 men. 
 
 874. ( Viscount Hardinge.) What is your number 
 on paper ? — 673. 
 
 875. {Col. MacMurdo.) Would you make the 
 
 minimum number in a company 100 ? — Yes ; and the 
 maximum 150. 
 
 876. Are you aware of the difficulty of obtaining in 
 some corps even a minimum of 60 ? — In adminis- 
 trative battalions I think the minimum might be 
 still 60, if you could raise only a single company ; 
 but I would not permit a second company to be raised 
 until the first company amounted to 150. 
 
 877. {3Iajor-Gen. Eyre.) Do you speak of the 
 metropolis only? — In the provinces I would still keep 
 the minimum at 60 ; but I would not let a second 
 company be raised before the first company amounted 
 to 150. In the metropolis and other large towns, 
 such as Edinburgh, Liverpool, &c., I would make 
 the minimum 100, and the maximum 150. A vei-y 
 short time ago there were two companies forming 
 a separate corps by themselves, paraded with our 
 own ; and there were 48 men present, five officers, 
 and eight Serjeants ; they had one company, con- 
 siderably below the minimum in men, with nearly the 
 full allowance of officers, and quite the full allowance 
 of Serjeants for two companies. 
 
 878. ( Viscount Hardinge. ) You would have 50 
 men as the minimum of a subdivision ? — I can con- 
 ceive that in some places where tliey cannot raise 50 
 men they may have a sufficient number of men for a 
 subdivision ; in that case I would sanction a sub- 
 division of less than 50 men, or even a section of 20 
 men. 
 
 879. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Are the men who stay 
 away the least proficient, or the most proficient ? — I 
 am afraid that as a rule they are the least proficient. 
 
 880. You do not think they stay away because 
 they are proficient, up to a certain mark ? — There 
 are some few instances of that, perhaps, but many 
 stay away because they have not paid their sub- 
 scriptions, and a great many men in London cannot 
 attend every Saturday; .some of the men are employed 
 in offices, and one office may supply five of their 
 clerks, three of whom can get away on one Saturday, 
 and another three can get away on the following 
 Saturday, and so on. 
 
 881. {Viscount Hardinge.') How many did you 
 muster at Brighton ? — I think 340. 
 
 882. Had all those men who were present on parade 
 at Brighton been regularly passed into the battalion 
 by you ? — In theory they had, but not in practice. 
 Our system is this ; we have tlie six setting-uii drills, 
 and after that a certain number of company drills ; 
 and the supposition is, that each man gets a drill card 
 after he has passed through the six setting-up drills. 
 The majority of those present had their drill cards, 
 but some of them had not. 
 
 883. Would it, in your opinion, be desirable that 
 there should be one uniform set of rules with regard 
 to attendance at drills, specifying that no man siiould 
 be passed into a battalion until he had rrouo thronch 
 
 G4 ^ 
 
 Capt. 
 S. F. Page. 
 
 .3 June 1862.
 
 48 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TA.KEX KEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Capl. 
 S. F. PiKje. 
 
 ;! June 1S62. 
 
 a certain number of setting-up drills or company 
 drills? — T tliink that if a ni:m passes the adjutant 
 in manual, platoon, and position drill, and afterwards 
 in the setting-up drill, he might be exempt from any 
 further setting-up drills or attendances at company 
 drill for that year, and be at once passed into a bat- 
 talion ; but there should be setting-up drills and com- 
 pany drills to qualify a man to pass into the battalion. 
 
 884. Would you recommend that system to be 
 applied generally to the whole volunteer force ? — -I 
 think it of the utmost importance that there should, 
 if possible, be one uniform system for the whole force. 
 I think it is possible that it might be necessary to 
 have one system for administrative battalions, and 
 another system for consolidated battalions. 
 
 885. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) Supposing that the 
 meeting on the coast had been for positive and active 
 operations against the enemy, what proportion of your 
 corps do you think would have been able to use tlieir 
 rifles effectively ? — We have tliis year 216 men only 
 who have passed in musketry ; but there are a great 
 many others wlio, from having constantly fired with 
 blank cartridge, I imagine would be able to use their 
 rifles effectively. 
 
 886. Do you think that that would have been of 
 the least use to them ? — I think it would. 
 
 887. {Sir A. Campbell?! When you speak of a man 
 having passed in musketry, do you mean that he lias 
 a knowledge of platoon exercise, or that he has passed 
 through the school of musketry course ? — I do not 
 mean the platoon exercise ; no man is passed into 
 the ranks or eligible to come to the musketry class 
 until he is proficient in the platoon exercise ; by 
 passing, I mean going through a short course of mus- 
 ketry instruction, including position drill, and a short 
 course, hardly of lectures but of explanations, as to 
 what the rifle can do, and how it is to be taken care 
 of, &c. 
 
 888. Not the whole minimum course specified in 
 the volunteer regulations ? — It is quite impossible 
 to carry that out in London ; we did carry it out in 
 Edinburgh. 
 
 889. {Earl of Di/cie.) W^hat number of your men 
 have passed through their classes ? — Last year we 
 had 240 men who fired. 
 
 890. And who passed through all the three classes ? 
 — No ; just over 200 only passed through the three 
 classes. 
 
 891. Have they not completed the course this year ? 
 — They have only just commenced. 
 
 892. {Sir A. Campbell.) Are they allowed to 
 commence musketry practice before they liave been 
 through the minimum course specified in the Volun- 
 teer Regulations ? — We have a course which is 
 neither the minimum nor the maximum, but a course 
 for each man, which is less than the minimum course 
 specified in the Volunteer Regulations. 
 
 893. A special regimental course ? — Yes ; and I 
 must say that I think there is no necessity for men 
 of intelligence, as a majority of volunteers are, passing 
 through that minimum course annually. 
 
 894. You say that in consequence of the smallness 
 of the numbers in your companies equalization is 
 always necessary, and that produces a difficulty 
 among the men. If the companies mustered more 
 numerously would you be able to do away with 
 equalization ? — It is not for the sake of equalization 
 that we break up the companies. We often move with 
 unequal companies, as ordered in the Field Exercise ; 
 it is because our attendances ai'e so small that we 
 have not a sufficient number of men to enable us to 
 move with eight companies. 
 
 893. {Sir G. A. JVetherall.) Suppose you came 
 with 100 men per company, and other battalions had 
 only 60 men per company, would your men decline, 
 for the sake of equalization, to bo sent to the other 
 battalions ? — Certainly net ; we have had no instance 
 of the men declining ; they are sufficiently disciplined 
 to go wherever they are told : but the eft'ect of the 
 state of things I have described is bad, because, 
 although they obey without hesitation, they will not 
 
 come to parade if they are constantly liable to be 
 separated from their friends and from their own 
 officers. 
 
 896. {Chairman.) Will you be good enough to 
 describe to the Commissioners the next difficulty 
 which you have to contend with ? — I think tliat om^ 
 of our great difficulties is the matter of the subscrip- 
 tion. We have several men in our corps to whom 
 the 1/. a year is a matter of great moment; they 
 cannot aftbrd to pay it ; and one of the reasons why, 
 the attendances have fallen off, has been the fact, 
 that several men owe money to the corps, and they do 
 not like to altend parade for that reason. I have 
 received several letters from members owing money 
 to the corps, begging that proceedings might not be 
 taken against them, and expressing a hope that nothing 
 might be done, as they could not afford to pay the 
 subscriptions. 
 
 897. I believe that they are only expected to pay a 
 guinea a year ? — Until February in this year there 
 was an entrance fee of 1/., payable in addition to the 
 1/. a year, but at a general meeting of the corps that 
 was held in February, the entrance fee was done away 
 with, and the only money which the men are now 
 asked to subscribe is the 1/. a yea;-. That does not 
 include the band ; that is purely a voluntary matter. 
 A man gives what he likes, or he need not give 
 anytliing. 
 
 898. What proportion of the men in your regiment 
 are able to afford a subscription of 1/. a year ? — I 
 should imagine that there were about 250, or nearly 
 300, to whom 1/. a year, in addition to uniform and 
 other necessary expenses, is a matter of serious mo- 
 ment. 
 
 899. ( Viscoimt Hardijige.) Do the men in the 
 company which is composed of working men pay 1/. 
 annually ? — We have no company entirely and soldi/ 
 composed of working men. Upon a man joining and 
 declaring himself to be an artizan, he paid 5s. for his 
 first year and no entrance fee at all ; but now they 
 are all placed on one footing and they .are all liable 
 to pay 1/. 
 
 900. You have one company composed of working 
 men ? — We have two companies principally, but not 
 entirely composed of artizans. 
 
 901. {Chairman.) Are those men supplied with 
 clothing at the expense of the corps ? — No, at their 
 own expense. One of our rules was, that every 
 enrolled man should provide himself with uniform 
 and accoutrements in accordance with the sealed 
 pattern, but the artizans were permitted to pay for 
 their uniforms by instalments. 
 
 902. ( Viscount Hardinge ) Have they done so ? — 
 There is a large outstanding debt still. 
 
 903. (Earl of Ducic.) What is the amount of it? 
 — I do not know. 
 
 904. {Chairman.) Then the clothing for those men 
 was paid for out of the funds of the corps ? — No, the 
 corps does not hold itself responsible for that money. 
 
 905. What remedy would you suggest for this state 
 of things ? — I think that if the force is to be kept up 
 at all, there must be a grant of so much per head for 
 every effective man, which will almost entirely, if 
 not quite, do away with the necessity for any sub- 
 scriptions. 
 
 906. {Lord Overstone.) Do you mean that there 
 should be a Government grant of 1 /. per head ? — I 
 think that perhaps 1/. would do for London ; I cannot 
 say for the country. 
 
 907. (Chairman.) A capitation grant of 1/. per 
 head ? — Yes. 
 
 908. To what expenses should that 1/. be applied ? 
 -^I think it should be applied to military expenses ; 
 that it should be applied towards the range expenses ; 
 towards the expense of headquarters, and if our 
 Serjeants are still to receive the pay which they do, 
 and we are compelled in each instance to add to 
 their pay, I should say that it should be applied 
 also to that purpose. 
 
 909. Will you state to the Commission what addi- 
 tion you are obliged to make to the pay of the ser-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 40 
 
 jeants ? — Our present Serjeant -major was serjeant- 
 major of the 61st regiment, and wlien he came to us 
 lie wa-! reociving what he considei's equivalent to 
 5s. 10(/. a day ; 3s. 3d. pay, Is. 3(1. lor quarters, Ait. 
 for (dotliing, and \s. for rations ; the Governnicnt 
 allowance to him as seijeant-uiajor of the voluntet'r 
 corps is 3s. \d. a day ; we allow him 29/. a year, and 
 in addition to that we provide; hiui with quarters, 
 which cost us 4.3/. a year. 
 
 910. [j\Jfijor-Gt'ii. Ei/rc.') Do you mean to say that 
 he was receiving in the Gist regiment as scrjcant- 
 major the ditlcrent sums which you have mentioned ? 
 — Yes ; the 3s. 3d. pay and quarters and clothing and 
 rations. 
 
 911. {Sir G. A. n'ef/ieraU.) Then he put his 
 annual clothing at 4d. a day ? — Yes, and he adds this, 
 that whilst serving he paid lOd. a day in the Ser- 
 jeants' mess, which consisted of three wholesome and 
 substantial meals. In London he cannot get three 
 meals daily for that amount, aud besides, he loses the 
 comfort of the mess. 
 
 912. {Col. MacMurdo.') He has his pension, lias 
 he not ? — No, he is not a pensioned man. We may 
 have Serjeants from the line after they have served 
 IS years. 
 
 913. {Chairman.') How many Serjeants have you ? 
 — Three. Then there is another matter ; the edu- 
 cation of his children is now thrown upon him, which 
 costs a large sum of money, whereas he was able 
 before to send them to a regimental school. 
 
 914. (Co/. MacMurdo.) Are you aware that the 
 Government did not contemplate that the serjeant- 
 majors of regular regiments should become serjeant- 
 majors in vuluuicer corps, but that the regulations 
 point to obtaining Serjeants ? — T think that it is very 
 iraijortant that we should, if possible, have as scr- 
 jeaut-majors of volunteer corps men who have had 
 experience as serjeant-majors in regiments of tlie line. 
 The diflercnee between serjeant-majors and ordinary 
 Serjeants in the orderly I'oom work, and the manage- 
 ment of the drills, and many other things, is of the very 
 greatest importance. Our other two Serjeants are 
 pensioned serjeantSj to one of whom we pay 20/. a 
 year without quarters, and to the other of whom we 
 pay 10/. a year without quarters. 
 
 915. Why is thai; difference made in the pay of the 
 two Serjeants ? — Because we are compelled to find 
 quarters for one Serjeant ; in Loudon it is (piite 
 impossible, or almost so, to have any distinct orderly 
 room I'.ours. We are compelled to have a man 
 invariably during daylight at headquarters, that if 
 a member has any business to transact he may 
 transact it as he passes to or from his business. We 
 have tried shutting up the orderly room at certain 
 hours, but during those hours a great number of the 
 volunteers come, and would be able to transact any 
 business that they might have at that time, and they 
 are naturally very much disappointed, if having got 
 away from their business, they find no one there to 
 attend to them. 
 
 91G. But why is there such a difference between, 
 as between paying one serjeant 20/. and the other 
 Serjeant 10/. only V — One of the two is our serjeant- 
 major, and we give him more ji.ay ; he has more to do 
 than the other. 
 
 917. {Lord Elcho.') There is also a diflerence, I 
 believe, in the pay given by the regiment to the other 
 two Serjeants ? — Yes ; one is our armourer, and we 
 pay him less. 
 
 9 If?. {Viscount Hardinge.) What do the extra 
 allowances paid to those Serjeants amount to in the 
 aggregate ? — -±'59 in money, and 45/. in quarters. 
 
 919. You mean the quarters for the serjeant- 
 major ? — Yes. 
 
 920. Who finds the quarters ? — The corps. 
 
 921. {Col. MacMurdo.) Can j'ou, from your expe- 
 rience as adjutant, state whether the allowances made 
 to the adjutant are sufficient ? — I certainly think that 
 the adjutants' allowances in London are not nearly 
 sufficient. For example, if you take the allowance for 
 a horse, it is 2«. a day; ttiat is 14*. a week for a 
 
 liorse, not including any groom or servant. Livery 
 for a horse costs abinit 13s. a week ; in addition to 
 that wo get 8.«. a day pay, and the house rent that we 
 jiay, if married, as I am, is more tlian that. We get 
 '2s. a daj' less than the adjutants in the country. Tlie 
 adjutant of an administrative battalion gets '2s. a day 
 for travelling expenses, but our house rent in London 
 exceeds their travelling expenses very materially. 
 
 922. Is there much difference between London and 
 Edinburgh ? — Not a very great deal. It is very 
 nearly the same thing. There is a very slight dif- 
 ference in the house rent. 
 
 92li. Do you keep a horse ? — I do not. 
 
 924. Do you find that the allowance for a horse 
 covers your occasional liire of one ? — The Marquis of 
 Abercorn lends me a horse always. 
 
 925. Then the allowance for a horse goes to your 
 general pay ? — Yes. 
 
 926. {Sir A. Caniphcll.) But that is only an ex- 
 ceptional instance, that an officer in your regiment 
 provides you with a lun'se ? — Yes. 
 
 927. ( I'iscouHf Jfardi/iffe.) What is the amount of 
 your pay and allowances ? — My pay and allowances 
 are 8«. a day pay, and 2s. a day for forage, aud 1/. a 
 ciuarter for each company, that is, 32/. a year. lu 
 addition to that, during the last year, in accordance 
 with the warrant, the corps has given me 25/. a year 
 in lieu of my railway and other necessary expenses ; 
 they give me the one sum instead of my keeping an 
 account of what I spend and charging it to the 
 corps. 
 
 928. {Col. MacMurdo.) Is the allowance for sta- 
 tioner}', in your opinion, sufficient ? — The allowance 
 for stationery is to cover contingent expenses in con- 
 uexiou with con-espondence, &c. with tlie WarOlfiiie, 
 and some time ago we referred to you, sir (Col. 
 MacMurdo), from Edinburgh, to know whether this 
 was to be applied to the general stationery expenses 
 of the corps, to wliich you said " No ;" and of course 
 our expenses in London in connexion with correspon- 
 dence with the War Office amount only to a few shil- 
 lings annuallv. 
 
 929. In Edinburgh do you consider it sufficient ? — 
 Quite sufficient. 
 
 930. {Lieut.-Cnl. Bartfclot.) Do most of the adju- 
 tants in London keep their own horses ? — I believe 
 not. There is one instance of one coi'ps in London 
 who bought their adjutant's horse and gave it to him. 
 They have very few mounted parades, and his horse 
 costs him about SO/, a year. 
 
 931. {Viscount Ilardiiiffe.) Do you know whether 
 tlie adjutants in the metropolitan corps have extra 
 allowances made up for them ? — I think that very 
 many of them have. Some have large sums. 
 
 932. {Lord Elcho.) Do you knov.' what the Queen's 
 give to Major Mayne ? — I am not quite sure, but it 
 was, I think, a large sum. 
 
 933. {Sir A. Campbell.) Have you ever made any 
 comparison between the position of an ailjutant of 
 volunteers and that of an adjutant in the militia, as 
 regards the p.ay and as regards the duty ? — I think it 
 is just this, that we work for nine months in the your, 
 and the adjutant in the militia works for about one 
 month, and he gets, I believe, half as much more pay 
 than we do. 
 
 934. {Lord Elcho.) Have you ever made tlie same 
 comnarison between the duties of a serjeant of militia 
 and a serjeant of volunteers ? — Yes, and for a seijeant- 
 mnjor in London I can imagine no more tiring work 
 than having to sit nearly all day long at a particular 
 place with very little indeed to do, being as it were, 
 tied to the office, at all hours of the day, aud having 
 to work at inconvenient hours at night ; our seiji'ants, 
 too, get very much less pay than the Serjeants of 
 militia ; I believe that a serjeant of a militia regiment 
 gets \d. a day more pay than our serjeant-major gets, 
 and in addition he gets quarters and clothing. 
 
 935. Is it necessary that the serjeant-major of a 
 volunteer regiment should be a very superior man ? 
 
 , I think it is of the utmost importance that he 
 
 should be as superior a non-commissioned officer, 
 
 H 
 
 Capt. 
 a. F. Page. 
 
 n .]iine 18C2.
 
 50 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COIEMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 both in his knowledge of the work, intelligence, man- 
 
 ner, and bearing, as possible. 
 
 ; June 1SG2. 936. It requires a man of considerable tact to be in 
 , that position, does it not ? — Very much so indeed. 
 
 937. Before you got your last serjeant-major j-ou 
 made very extensive inquiries, did you not, in all 
 directions in search of one ? — Yes. 
 
 938. Had you any difficulty in finding one ? — I 
 happened to hit upon this one by chance, but we could 
 not hear for some months of a man who we felt could 
 be trusted, without my own presence, so that he 
 should be able to drill our volunteers in such a 
 manner as that he should make them do what he 
 required them to do, and yet at the same time not 
 speak to them in any but the most courteous and 
 proper manner. 
 
 939. Do you believe it is possible to obtain the 
 class of men who are required in that position for the 
 allowances or for the salary given by the Govern- 
 ment ? — I believe it is perfectly impossible in Lon- 
 don, at any rate, to get any Serjeant of the description 
 that is required as serjeant-major for volunteer corps 
 for the Government allowance. 
 
 940. Is it more easy to get a sufficient number of 
 good Serjeants for militia regiments than for volunteer 
 regiments ? — Yes ; my im])ression of the militia is, 
 that the men in the militia are spoken to more roughly 
 by the Serjeants than in a line regiment. 
 
 941. Are you aware that the pay of a militia 
 Serjeant is higher than that of the volunteer serjeant ? 
 — Yes, they get quarters and clothing in addition to 
 their pay. 
 
 942. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Are you quite correct 
 in saying that the militia adjutant receives half as 
 much again as you do ? — I think so ; but I am not 
 quite sure. 
 
 943. Are you awaro that the militia adjutant 
 receives about 300/. a year ? — Yes. 
 
 944. And that the volunteer adjutant, taking your 
 own case as an example, receives about 230/. a year, 
 if you take into account all your allowances ? — Yes ; 
 I was wrong in what I said. 
 
 945. (Lord Oversto)ie.) Co;ild you give in a tabular 
 statement, setting forth the relative pay of the militia 
 Serjeant and of the volunteer serjeant, and another, 
 setting forth the relative duties imposed upon the 
 two ? — Yes ; I could draw such statements up. 
 
 946. {Lord Elcho.) What is your opinion as to 
 the necessity of adjutants for the volunteer corps ? — 
 I think, in the first instance, that they were absolutely 
 necessary ; but I am not quite sure that it is neces- 
 sary to have them now. I am sure of this, that we 
 have not enough to do ; and that the enormous sum 
 which is now paid to the adjutants of volunteers 
 might be saved by not having so many ; of course the 
 ditficiilty would be in providing for those officers who 
 would not be continued as adjutants ; but we are not 
 permitted to do any non-military duty ; an adjutant 
 is not permitted to take any part in the non-military 
 or financial affairs of the corps ; and the consequence 
 is that we pass the entire day with very little indeed 
 to do. The whole of the adjutants' military work in 
 the office may be performed in two or tliree days in a 
 week, with the exception of one week in the year, 
 which is the last week in July, when we have to 
 prepare the muster rolls of the corps ; on the other 
 hand, every night, or nearly every night, during the 
 winter, there is some work going on, but I feel quite 
 confident that one adjutant would be able to do the 
 work of two regiments in Loudon, where there is no 
 great distance between them. 
 
 947. {Sir A. Camjibell.) Would that include the 
 superintendence of musketry instruction and target 
 practice ? — It would not ; there are very few adju- 
 tants in London that have much to do with the 
 musketry instruction. I have nothing to do with 
 nmsketry instruction ; there is a volunteer musketry 
 instructor ; each company has a company instructor, 
 and an assistant instructor, and those gentlemen are 
 only too willing and too glad to bo permitted to work 
 in the corps. 
 
 948. {Lord Elcho.) The musketry instruction is 
 an entirely voluntary and gratuitous service, is it 
 not ? — With the exception that we apply one of our 
 paid Serjeants to the musketry instruction. 
 
 949. {Major Harcourt.) With regard to the adju- 
 tants, do you not think that it would be easy for an 
 adjutant to find almost as much to do as he could get 
 through ? — I think it is quite impossible, if he con- 
 fines himself strictly to his military duty, as we are 
 ordered. I do not mean to say that we have not 
 work to do in the evenings, but we have nothing to 
 do in the day. 
 
 9.50. {Viscount Hardinge.') Should you be in favour 
 in London of amalgamating two weak battalions ? — 
 I think it is a matter of great importance that the 
 metropolitan force should be divided into brigades 
 by districts, forming those national or professional 
 corps already organized into a separate brigade, but 
 whether in mei'ging them into brigades you would 
 sacrifice the individuality of corps, I think is a matter 
 for great consideration. 
 
 9.51. Of course, if you were to amalgamate a certain 
 number of corps, you would be able to knock off a 
 certain number of adjutants ? — -Yes ; but it would be 
 very hard indeed to amalgamate two corps and bring 
 them imder new field officers, men whom they might 
 not work with, and of whom they know nothing, 
 perhaps ; and I think it is very essential that the 
 volunteers should have confidence in, and should be 
 able to work with, their officers. 
 
 952. You have probably heard' instances mentioned 
 of new corps having been raised almost within a, 
 stone's throw of the headquarters of an existing 
 corps 1- — Yes ; and of course it is a matter for the 
 War Office to consider whether they have done 
 vrisely in authorizing and not preventing the raising of 
 such corps. I cannot but think that there are too 
 many corps in London. 
 
 953. It would appear that you see insuperable 
 difficulties in the way of amalgamating them ? — 
 Yes ; I think that every corps which does not at the 
 present time number on its muster rolls 600 should 
 be reduced to four companies, and that every corps 
 that does not muster 900 should be reduced to six 
 companies, and the stafl' now allowed for six compa- 
 nies be allowed for four, and so on, retaining the offi- 
 cers as supernumeraries until absorbed. 
 
 954. {Chairman.) Do you mean six companies of 
 a maximum strength of 150 per company ? — Yes. 
 
 955. ( Viscou7it Hardinge.) Your plan of making 
 the adjutant do duty in two or three battalions could 
 not be made to apply to the administrative battalions, 
 could it ? — I do not know sufficiently about the duties 
 of the adjutants in administrative battalions to be able 
 to speak to that. 
 
 956. But you would have one system for the metro- 
 polis and another system for the rural districts ? — I 
 should think that one adjutant might, for example, 
 do the work in Liverpool or in Manchester, or in 
 Edinburgh, and in large towns generally, one adjtt- 
 tant being appointed brigade-major to each brigade. 
 Oflicers connected with administrative battalions will 
 speak as to the working of this system in the rural 
 districts. 
 
 957. {I^ord Elcho.) The Inns of Court corps is 
 only six companies strong ? — Only six. 
 
 958. How does that work ? Arc their companies 
 generally full, or have they to be broken up ? — I 
 believe I am correct in saying that they have never 
 been broken up. Colonel Brewster told me that they 
 had never been broken up. 
 
 959. {Sir A. Campbell.) Can you go through bat- 
 talion drill properly without equalizing the companies? 
 — Yes, except when marching past ; and in brigade 
 drill, under Colonel MacMurdo, I have seen one of our 
 companies 19 file, and one or two of the others 13 
 or 14. We should equalize before we were inspected. 
 
 960. In Edinburgh the regiment, I believe, con- 
 sists of two battalions ? — Yes. 
 
 961. How many companies are there ? — Twenty- 
 two companies.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 51 
 
 962. ITow many adjutants avo there? — Two. 
 
 963. In your judgment, would one adjutant be suffi- 
 cient ? — The work in tlic Edinburgh regiment is con- 
 stituted very ditferently from that in any other con- 
 solidated battalion that I know of. It is, in point of 
 fact, an administrative battalion, because each com- 
 pany is separate from the other. There is no bat- 
 talion finance. Each company is responsible for it.s 
 own finance. I was for a long time the only adju- 
 tant to the two battalions ; but as soon as the 
 War Office circular was sent out that a second 
 adjutant might be appointed, it was determined that 
 one adjutant should have the entire charge of the 
 drill, and the other sliould have the entire charge of 
 the nnisketry. My successor as adjutant is an officer 
 who has never been to Hythe, therefore he has the 
 entire charge of the drill, while the other adjutant, 
 who was serjeant-major at the school of musketry at 
 Hythe, has the entire charge of the musketry. 
 
 964. Is that system found to work well ? — Very 
 well indeed. 
 
 965. Do you think that in general it wonld not be 
 desirable to ha%-e the musketry instruction conducted 
 under the charge of an adjutant ? — I do not see any 
 necessity for it whatever. 
 
 966. Do you think that you can sufficiently depend 
 on volunteer officers ? — Yes. It is by no means a 
 difficult tiling now, owing to the facilities which have 
 been given by the War Office, to go through a course 
 of instruction at Hythe. We have had, I think, six 
 officers and one serjeant who have gone through a 
 course of instruction at Hythe, and we find that they 
 are perfectly well able to carry out the musketry in- 
 struction. 
 
 967. {Col. MacMurdo.') Is it your opinion that the 
 adjutant of a volunteer corps should not be perfectly 
 well up in his musketry instruction ? — No ; I consider 
 it a matter of the greatest importance that he should 
 have passed through the school of musketry, and bo 
 able to settle all points of detail. 
 
 968. An adjutant who had not been at Hythe 
 would labour under a disadvantage ? — Yes, and in a 
 very short time his authority with his men would be 
 lessened. 
 
 969. {Lord Elc/io.) Have you formed any opinion 
 as to there being a special staff uniform for staff Ser- 
 jeants and adjutants of volunteer corps ? — Taking 
 the Serjeants first, I cannot but think that it would 
 be a good thing in many ways if the Government 
 were to provide them with a uniform, that is a staff 
 uniform, by which you should at once be able to dis- 
 tinguish them. 
 
 970. At the present time the uniform is found by 
 the corps, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 971. That expense has to be added to the other 
 expenses which are borne b}^ the corps ? — Yes ; the 
 present uniform is found by the corps ; I am perfectly 
 confident that our own Serjeants have not quite the 
 same authority in drilling our men as the Serjeants 
 from the Guards had. Both in Edinburgh and when 
 1 first came up to London I wore my own uniform on 
 parade, and I am confident that that gave me, when 
 first I came to the two corps, greater authoritj^ ; I do 
 not mean to say that I have to complain of anj^ less 
 power or authority with them now, but there was a 
 certain feeling, that of looking up to the adjutant as 
 a military man, and I believe that it would be a very 
 good thing indeed if both the adjutants, at their own 
 expense, and the Serjeants at the expense of the 
 Government, were provided with staff uniforms. 
 
 972. (Col. MacMurdo.) Are you aware that in the 
 2)ay of the serjeant instructors an allowance of 2d. 
 is reckoned for clothing ? — I was not aware of that ; 
 but that only makes the pay up to 2>s. 3rf. I suppose. 
 
 973. (Viscount Ilardiiige.) Have you any estimate 
 of the annual expense to which your corps is put for 
 keeping up a range, the rent of headquarters, and so 
 on ? — No ; I have nothing to do with the financial 
 arrangements of the corps. 
 
 974. (Lord Elcho.) At present the adjutant is 
 debarred from having anything to do with finance 
 
 matters, and the Serjeants are equally so debarred? — 
 Yes. 
 
 975. Is it possible, in your opinion, that the con- 
 cerns of a volunteer corps can be managed without 
 somebody being held especially responsible for the 
 finance? — It is tpiite impossible tliat they can be well 
 managed without somebody being responsible for the 
 financial affairs of the corjis. Tlic adjutant is positively 
 prohibited from having anything to do with thorn. 
 We have r('cei\ed a circular from the Secretai'y of 
 State for War s.\ying that it was not expedient (but 
 not ])rohibiting it) that the Serjeants should have 
 anything to do with those matters ; but we have been 
 compelled to allow our serjeant-major to manage and 
 pa}' the small cash accounts which come in and re- 
 quire payment on the spot; wc; can have no volunteer 
 who is constantly in attendance to transact the small 
 financial business of the corps. 
 
 976. If the serjeant did not do that the corps must 
 employ an orderly room clerk, whose services could 
 probably not be obtained for less than 40/. a year ? — 
 Yes, 40/. or 50/. a year. 
 
 977. (Major Harconrf.) Is it not the case that the 
 supernumerary lieutenant is obliged to act as pay- 
 master ? — Yes, he does act as paymaster by taking 
 charge generally of the financial affairs of the corps ; 
 but it is only generally. I think it is too much to sup- 
 pose that any gentleman in London, for they are 
 nearly all in employment, could give up his entire 
 time to take the entire charge of the finance. 
 
 978. Is it not possible to find a jicrson wno would 
 be willing to have a commission in the volunteer 
 corps, and who had plenty of time on his hands, and 
 who would for the sake of a commission perform the 
 duties of jjaymaster thoroughly ? — I think not in 
 London ; we have not found it so. 
 
 979. (Lord Elcho.') It would require, would it not, 
 in your corps a person to be constantly, or at all 
 events for certain hours in the day, at the office to 
 receive subscriptions, and to settle the small casli 
 accounts ? — Yes, to receive subscriptions, give re- 
 ceipts, &c. 
 
 980. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Who performs that 
 duty now ? — The serjeant-major. 
 
 981. Are you aware that in many corps a consi- 
 derable salary is given, such as 50/. a year, to the 
 secretary to the finance committee ? — Yes ; but we 
 cannot afford to give 50/. a year to any orderly room 
 clerk or paymaster's clerk, but we have felt the want 
 of it ; if the present subscriptions are to be retained I 
 think it will be absolutely necessary that there should 
 be either an orderly room clerk or a paymaster's 
 clerk, to be paid by the Government, in order to 
 carry on the business of the corps. 
 
 982. {Lord. Overstonc.) I understand it to be your 
 opinion that the efficiency of the present volunleer 
 movement is in danger from two causes, — one, defects 
 in administration, and the other pecuniary pressure ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 983. Confining your attention to the latter cause, 
 namely, pecuniar^' pressure, is it your opinion that 
 some regulation under which the Government should 
 aid to the extent of 1/. per man, would be a desirable 
 remedy ? — Yes. 
 
 984. Do you think that would be an effectual and 
 complete remedy ? — I think it would. 
 
 985. Do you think it important that that I/, per 
 head should be a specific sum advanced as such ; or 
 would it meet your views if that assistance were ren- 
 dered indirectly by the Government, to be applii-d 
 to the various purjioses which have been cnumeratcil 
 by you ; for example, towards the expense of a range, 
 headquarters, Serjeants, &c., on the principle that 
 the total advance would be applicable to things of 
 that nature ? — I cannot think that-that would make 
 much difference. Each corps should be able. I think, 
 to tell the Government in what manner they wish 
 the money to be expended. 
 
 986. Do you think that the better course would be 
 to pay a specific sum to the colonel commnnding each 
 regiment, he being responsible for the administration 
 
 H 2 
 
 Capl. 
 S. F. Page. 
 
 .3 .June 1862.
 
 52 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COJIMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Capt. 
 S. F. Page. 
 
 3 June IS62. 
 
 of tlifvt Slim ; or would it be equally efficient for the 
 purpose in view, if advances in an indirect form, were 
 made by the Government, the amount being, gene- 
 rally speaking, equivalent to 1/. per head? — ! still 
 think it would make no dilfcrence, ibr the command- 
 ing oilicer of each corps might say upon what indi- 
 vidual things he would like the money expended ; it 
 would of course lead to very great complication, for 
 I think it would be found thai no two corps would 
 apply for the money to be spent for exactlj' the same 
 })urposes, or if they did, certainly not in the same 
 proportions. I think it would simplify matters if the 
 money were given to the commanding officer, he 
 being held responsible to the Government for its 
 administration. 
 
 987. Can you express any opinion as to what would 
 be the relative condition either of your own corps, or 
 of the volunteer movement generally, upon the sup- 
 position, first, that it is left in its present condition, 
 and on the supposition, secondly, that your suggested 
 plan of Government aid were applied to it ? — Our 
 attendance last year was, upcn the average, 286 ; our 
 attendance, on the average, this year is 199; and I 
 believe it will be found to decrease in very much the 
 same proportion if the force is continued as it now is. 
 
 988. Do you attribute that decrease entirely to the 
 pecuniary difficulties you have alluded to ? — Partly 
 to pecuniary difficulties, and partly (o the fact of the 
 breaking up of the companies, partly to the number 
 of parades a volunteer must attend to become an 
 cffijctive, also to the fiict that there is very little in- 
 ducement to the volunteers to sacrifice their holiday, 
 Saturday after Saturday, and come out to drill. I 
 cannot but think that there might be an inducement 
 held out that would attain the object we have in view, 
 that of bringing the men out to parade, in order to 
 make them efficient. 
 
 989. What inducement do you allude to ? — At the 
 present time an effective volunteer is exempt from 
 the militia ballot, and he is also exempt from the hair 
 powder tax, but he has no other exemption of any 
 kind or sort, and I cannot but think that if an effec- 
 tive were permitted to Avear a badge (we find that 
 the marksmen's badges are very much sought after), 
 to carry with it some exemption, such, for instance, 
 as exemption from serving on a jury, or as the hair 
 powder tax is now no boon to the present force as it 
 was formerly, there might be an exemption from 
 taxation ; each volunteer choosing what it should be, 
 and ho might be exem;)t from a tax of about the 
 same amount as the hair powder tax, which is, I be- 
 lieve, \L 3s. 6d., the tax ibr a male servant is 1/. Is., 
 the tax for a horse I think is 1/. \s., for a dog 12s., 
 and armorial bearings ISs. 6d., and if the volunteers 
 were permitted to choose which of those they would 
 be exempted from, I think they would feel that they 
 had gained something by becoming volunteers. 
 
 990. Do not you think that the volunteer move- 
 ment originated in a feeling which was spread 
 throughout the country of serious danger from foreign 
 invasion ? — I do. 
 
 991. Do you not think that that feeling must neces- 
 sarily vary in its strength and in its activity, precisely 
 in proportion as the apprehension out of which it 
 sprung varies ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 992. Do you think that the remedies which yon 
 have now suggested would be anything like an 
 efficient substitute for the diminished feeling of appre- 
 hension as to national security ? — I think that if v.'e 
 do not introduce something of this kind the force will 
 dwindle away and at last disappear. 
 
 993. Do you think that the remedies which you 
 have suggested in the latter part of your evidence 
 can possibly be looked upon as a sutlicient substitute 
 for that feeling of serious apprehension as to the 
 national security in which the volunteer movement 
 originated, and with the decay of which the volunteer 
 movement is apparently failing ? — I think that it 
 would be an inducement added to the feeling, I can- 
 not think that the feeling has entirely passed away ; 
 I believe that the volunteers themselves are conscious 
 
 that as individuals they have, in coming forward and 
 enrolling themselves, done their duty, and considerably 
 strengthened our position on the continent ; but at 
 the same time, inasmuch as the same necessity docs 
 not exist for their presence, I think it is our duty to 
 devise means to keep the force permanently together, 
 and in some way to let them feel that they obtain 
 advantages by being volunteers, so that although the 
 feeling has not entirely disappeared, yet, having 
 partly disappeared, there should be an inducement 
 added to what remains of that feeling. 
 
 994. Do you think that it would be a safe principle 
 of procedure to mingle to a certain degree or to substi- 
 tute the feelings to which you have recently alluded 
 in the place of that one which was the more pre- 
 dominant feeling ? — The Ibrce is now Ibrmed under 
 the Act of George 3d, which does exempt them from 
 a tax ; it is in no way altering the principle ; it is 
 mere!)' substituting something that would be a present 
 advantage to them, instead of leaving it to be said 
 the principle is in existence without conferring any 
 benefit ; on ])rinciple we give you some advantage, 
 but in practice we really do not give you any. 
 
 995. {Chairma/i.) 1 understood 3"ou to say, that 
 the Act of George 3d exempted the volunteers from 
 a tax on an article which is now no longer in use, and 
 j'ou propose to substitute some other exemption that 
 would really be a relief to them ? — Yes. 
 
 996. The effect of that, I presume, would be to add 
 1/. a year to the other 1/. which you propose as a 
 capitation grant from the Government, that is to say, 
 that the exemption from the tax would be equivalent 
 to giving up 1/. ? — They are exempt now from the tax 
 on hair powder, but it is no boon to them. I think it 
 is a matter of very great importance that some incen- 
 tive or inducement should be held out to them, for 
 Avithout it I think we shall hardly be able to keep 
 the force in anything like its present state, and we 
 shall find year by year it will become less, an evil that 
 must, if possible, be avoided. 
 
 997. {Lord Elc/io.) The ballot is not in force 
 now ? — I believe not. 
 
 998. Practically there is no exemption ? — Xo. 
 
 999. Hair powder is never used, so that the 
 exemption from the tax ujjon that is no exemption ? 
 — Ko. 
 
 1000. What you mean is this, that the present 
 volunteer force as embodied exists under an Act of 
 Parliament in which there v/ere certain exemptions ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1001. As an inducement to volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 1002. Those exemptions, partly from the law not 
 being enforced in one instance, ajid in the other liom 
 a change of fashion, have ceased to be exemptions ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1003. And you would suggest others upon the 
 same principle ? — Yes, exactly upon the same prin- 
 ciple. 
 
 1004. (Lord Overstone.) You think that these 
 exemptions would be valued by the volunteers as 
 marks of distinction and privilege. Do you think 
 that they would be principally valued on account of 
 their pecuniary value, or because they exempted the 
 volunteers from services of a disagreeable kind ? — I 
 think that with reference to exemption from serving 
 on juries it would have a most beneficial effect upon 
 all who would benefit by it, for a man would feel that 
 iu qualifying himself for a volunteer he obtained an 
 exemption from the disagreeable duty of serving on a 
 jury. On the other hand, I think that the exemption 
 from a tax would be perhaps viewed more almost as 
 an honorary distinction than as a material pecuniary 
 benefit. 
 
 lOOj. Your opinion is that in order to retain the 
 present volunteers it is requisite that some induce- 
 ment should be given beyond that of the public prin- 
 ciple of volunteering for the defence of the country ? 
 — There is already provided an inducement in the 
 exemption from the militia ballot, and also the hair 
 powder tax ; it is not that we wish to provide an 
 additional inducement so much as we want to change
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 53 
 
 that which is now really no inducement into some- 
 thing that is. 
 
 1()06. As I understand you opinion it is this, that 
 in the i'ormer vohmtccr movement there were certain 
 exemptions given as an inducement to men to enter 
 tiie force, thos(! exemptions have now become of liltlo 
 value, and you think that exemptions of equal value 
 to them at the jirescnt time ongiit to bo substituted in 
 their place ? — Yes, 
 
 1007. Your opinion is that unless public feeling 
 is supported or strengthened by some such means as 
 these it will not of itself be suiHeient to sustain the 
 present movement ? — I believe so. 
 
 1008. {]'isconnt Ilardinge.) What proportion of 
 the members in the metropolitan regiments do you 
 think keep male servants ? — I do not know. 
 
 1009. If you were to exempt those members from 
 paying H. a year for a male servant they would Ijo 
 pro tantn able to pay their subscription of one guinea ? 
 — Yes, it would be a boon ; but I think it is a matter 
 of importance that there should be a boon. 
 
 1010. {Sir A. Camphcll.) Do you propose that the 
 boon in addition to the 1/. should be given to the 
 commanding officer ? — Yes, certainly. I wish to 
 carry out the Act of 50 years ago, and make it really 
 beneficial now. 
 
 1011. {Cliairman.) You propose to do this either 
 in the way of relief from taxation or by conferring on 
 them the privilege of not serving on juries ? — I think 
 that the exemption from serving on juries would be 
 a new boon and a new inducement added to the old 
 principle of a remission of a certain amount of tax- 
 ation. I wish to give them the benefit both of ex- 
 emption from being on juries and from some one tax. 
 
 1012. {EarlofDncie.) An exemption from a certain 
 portion of the assessed taxes would only relieve those 
 volunteers who were already in tolerably easy cir- 
 cumstances ? — Yes ; but the object is to induce them, 
 by extending to them some privilege, to attend re- 
 gularly at their drills and qualify as effectives ; and I 
 think that these little inducements would have that 
 desired effect. 
 
 1013. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do not you think that 
 the knowledge tlnit, by becoming efficient, they would 
 be the means of obtaining for their corps a certain 
 proportion of Government aid, to be paid to the 
 commanding officer, would be sufficient to induce 
 them to come in ? — No ; I think not. 
 
 1014. {Sir G. A. Wether all.) You have stated 
 that in your opinion 1/. should be given by the Go- 
 vernment to every effective volunteer ; what do you 
 (•onsider an effective volunteer ? — The present regu- 
 lations compel a volunteer to attend 24 parades in the 
 year in order to make him " effective." I think that 
 that regulation might be well altered, and that if a 
 volunteer passes the adjutant in the manual, platoon, 
 position, and company drill, after that he need only 
 attend eight battalion parades, exclusive of brigade or 
 divisional parades. Having passed the adjutant, I 
 think that eight battalion parades would be sufficient, 
 he would then be efficient, and should therefore, I 
 think, be looked upon as " effective." 
 
 1015. {Viscomit. Ilardinge.) Do you think that the 
 Government, if they gave further assistance to the 
 volunteers, would be disposed to dispense with the 
 present number of days' attendance at drill, v;hich, 
 according to the Act, constitutes an effective ? — I am 
 afraid that, if the number is not altered, wo shall 
 not obtain anything like a fair proportion of our men 
 as effectives. I judge from the fact of the very small 
 attendances, and I know it is not only so in our corps 
 but in others. 
 
 1016. Are you aware that in point of fact the num- 
 ber of days specified by the Act of Parliament is 18 ? 
 — I know that in the Act it is 18, but in the regulations 
 it is 24. 
 
 1017. {Chairman.) I think you stated some time 
 ago that the officers were very punctual in their atten- 
 dance ? — Yes, they are most regular and punctual, and 
 I cannot but think that it would materially assist us 
 in our endeavours to make our officers efficient if part 
 of every inspection, when inspected by Colonel Mac- 
 
 Murdo, say the first hour of the inspection, was do- 
 voted entirely to company drill under ecmipauy officers, 
 so that tlie inspecting olliei'r might really see" not only 
 Ilio battalion parade, but how an officer could work a 
 company by himself. At the present time, many of 
 tliem, p;irtly from few opportiuiities, and also ktiowing 
 tiiat there is no test, are not as competent to command 
 and to manoeuvre a conijiany by itself as they are to 
 command a company in battalion drill. 
 
 1018. There is no examination of the officers before 
 they receive their commissions ? — No. I do not 
 think it would be well that there should be before 
 they receive their commission, and if there was any 
 examination afterwards, I would limit it entirely to 
 niaiueuvring a company by itself and also as part of 
 a battalion. I think, on the other hand, that now 
 having been so long in existence, if an officer were 
 found not to be efficient, he sliould be compelled to bo 
 attached to some regiment of the line for a monlii, and 
 obtain from the officer commanding that regiment a 
 certificate that he was efficient, or be eiiHecl upon to 
 resign. 
 
 1019. {Sir G. A. JVetherall.) What proportion of 
 effectives have you in your corps ? — According to the 
 legal qualification, it is difficult to say, i'or tfie pre- 
 sent year, the qualification does not end till the 31st of 
 July ; but taking the date that the Commissioners 
 have assigned for this year, which is the 1st of April, 
 we have 382 who have attended 12 parades. 
 
 1020. {Lord Overstone.) Is it your oi)inion that iho 
 volunteer force is now generally dwindling in efii- 
 ciency ? — I should rather say that it is decreasing in 
 numbers, but that those who remain are increasing 
 very materially in efficiency. 
 
 1021. Do you think that the efficiency, as far as 
 discipline is concerned, is rather advancing than re- 
 trograding ? — Not only rather, but I sliould say that 
 the force is most materially advancing in disci]ilinc 
 and efficiency, and the knowledge of the work in those 
 who do attend is very much greater than it was. 
 
 1022. Is not that a very natural and legitimate 
 state of a volunteer force during a period in whieli 
 the apprehension as to the safety of the country is 
 not seriously shaken ? — Yes, perhaps so, if we wei-c 
 likely to retain tbe tn-esent numbers ; but Avhat I fear 
 is that, having fallen down from an average of 285 to 
 199 in one year, the decrease will continue, and I 
 greatly fear to contemplate the small numbers we 
 shall fall down to next year, anvd wo cannot expect 
 the oflicers to continue to attend regularly, if their 
 companies are constantly taken from them and broken 
 
 1023. Your apprehension is that inconveniences 
 and difficulties will attend you in keeping up the pre- 
 sent numbers in the force, whilst tlie spirit out of 
 which the movement originated is rather diminisliiuK? 
 — I think so. 
 
 1024. {Viseoirnt Ilardinge.) Are your olRcers now 
 put to any inconvenient expense ? — W'e do not recog- 
 nize the fact that they are, but they are ; for examjjle, 
 it is very hard indeed for an officer commanding a 
 compaii}^ in a battalion such as ours to offer to his 
 company prizes to be shot for, and for the officer of 
 another company not to do the same thing. We 
 find that it is absolutely necessary in the appointment 
 of officers that their means should be considered, owing 
 to that fact ; and I know of more cases than one in 
 which most oihcient gentlemen have declined com- 
 missions or promotion because they felt that they 
 could not bear the necessary expense. 
 
 1025. Does not each company rather expect its 
 cajitain to give a rifle prize ? — Yes, I think they look 
 for it. 
 
 1026. Upon whom does the expense of the band 
 fall ? — The expense of the band is met by an entirely 
 voluntary subscription ; and there again, if a'captain 
 gives 3/. 3s., a lieutenant will give 21. 2s., the ensign 
 will give 1/. Is., and the Serjeants lOs., and the men 
 5,<. ; but it is purely optional. Many men do not 
 subscribe anything. 
 
 1027. {Sir A. Campbell.] Do all of your officers 
 subscribe to the band 'i — Yes ; in every instance. 
 
 H 3 
 
 Capt. 
 S. F. Page. 
 
 3 .Tunc 18fi2.
 
 54 
 
 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Capt. 
 S.F.Pmje. 
 
 3 June I8G2. 
 
 1028. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Have you any idea 
 what your band costs per annum ? — Our band has 
 just been newly organized, and, in point of fact, wo 
 have no band of our own ; it is a professional band. 
 We give uniforms, and we have a bandmaster, to 
 whom we pay 50/. a year. He scores oft' all the music, 
 and he looks after the instruments, and he is bound 
 to bring us on parade a certain number of musicians 
 who can play. Our band consists of from 12 to 14 
 men, and we pay them 7s. a head each time they come 
 to play. We estimate our annual expenditure for 
 band at about 200/. or rather less. 
 
 1029. Could you get on without a band ? — Cer- 
 tainlj' not. 
 
 1030. Do you think you could get on witli fifes 
 and drums ? — Certainly not. We have in addition to 
 the band six pipers, tlie pipes were presented to us 
 by Scotcli ladies living in London ; but the pipers, 
 with the exception of the pipe major, to whom we pay 
 251. a year, are voluntai-y. But having six pipers 
 we never muster more tlian four on parade, and very 
 often two, and sometimes we go out without one. 
 I think it would be impossible to keep the corps 
 together without a band. 
 
 1031. {Major- Geii. . El/re.) In one case it is stated 
 that the baud cost 600/. a year. Do you thinlc that 
 a corps that can furnish that amount for a band can 
 be in much difficultj- ? — I imagine that that refers to 
 the London rifle brigade, a corps which has been 
 largely assisted by gentlemen living in the city. 
 
 1032. (Sir A. Campbell.) I suppose that tlie evi- 
 dence you have given to-day would generally apply 
 as well to Edinburgh as to London ? — I have had 
 London much more in my mind ; and without looking 
 through the evidence I have given, I should be sorry 
 to say that it equally applied to both. 
 
 1033. Is it probable that what you have stated with 
 regard to the falling off in numbers, in case no aid 
 .should be given, will equally apply to Edinburgh ? — 
 Hardly so much. Tiiere is but one i-egiment in 
 Edinburgh, and the volunteer spirit in Edinburgh 
 is most strong ; and I think throughout all Scotland it 
 is very strong. I fancy from what I know, having 
 seen several officers of the Edinburgh volunteer corps, 
 that the attendances are not much falling oft' there. 
 The distances in Edinburgh to the parade ground 
 and butts are very small, and it does not cost a man 
 anything to attend. 
 
 1034. In fact you think that Edinburgh has not 
 been over enrolled ? — I think that it has been very 
 much over enrolled in the number of its companies ; 
 and that it would have been better had there been 
 half the number of companies, because although the 
 men turn out, the attendances in companies are small, 
 and they have to be broken up. 
 
 1035. {Sir G. A. IVetherall.) Are you aware 
 that in the army the ofiicers have been forbidden to 
 give prizes for good shooting ? — Tes. 
 
 10.36. Do you think it would affect the zeal of the 
 volunteers if it were ordered that amongst them the 
 giving of prizes should be discontinued ? — I think 
 without exception that it would be the most fatal 
 thing that could happen to the force ; witliout an 
 inducement being held out of shooting for rifle prizes 
 it would be almost impossible to render the force 
 permanent. 
 
 1037. {Chairman.) Have yen any further sugges- 
 tions to offer to the Commission ? — There is one, and 
 it is with reference to a school of arms. I cannot but 
 think that it would be a most material advantage for 
 us in all large towns, if, now that gymnastics and 
 schools of arms have been taken up by the authorities, 
 our serjeant-instruotors were sent there to go through 
 a course of instruction, so that they might be able to 
 instruct our volunteers. I think that some central 
 place should be supplied by the Government at no 
 very great expense, the Serjeants taking it in turns to 
 go and give instruction ; and every effective member 
 might go through a coiyse of gymnastic exercise with 
 the single stick, and boxing, and so forth. This would, 
 
 I am convinced, tend to render the service popular 
 and the force permanent. 
 
 1038. {Lord Elcho.) K the Government allowed 
 j-ou to .send individuals, selected from the corps, to be 
 instructed as drill-serjeants, at no expense, would it 
 be acceptable to the corps? — I do not think you could 
 entirely depend upon volunteers as your drill-serjeants, 
 unless you had a large number of them, so that it 
 might make the work easy ; in London the men are 
 too much engaged in business. 
 
 1039. You think that you could not find the men 
 for it ? — We might find them, but it would be neces- 
 sary to have a large number to carry it out ; it would 
 be infinitely inferior to depending upon our present 
 Government driU-serjeants. We find that our drill 
 Serjeants have so much more weight with our men 
 than volunteei- instructors have. 
 
 1040. You have laid much stress upon the strength 
 of the companies and the difficulties arising out of the 
 want of numbers, and you stated that you had been 
 unable to equalize ? — It is not so much for the pur- 
 pose of equalization that we bre.ak up our companies, 
 but because the numbers that we have on parade, if 
 divided by eight, which is our strength of companies, 
 makes our companies too small for parade movements. 
 The men do not object to being equalized, but they 
 dislike being broken up and being put with other 
 companies. We are so few on parade that we cannot 
 move with eight companies. 
 
 1041. Still you wish to amalgamate them in order 
 to instruct them ? — Yes. 
 
 1042. Do they object to that ? — They never object ; 
 they go ; but they so much dislike it that when this 
 has happened two or three times they stay away from 
 drill. There has never been one instance of objection, 
 but with the most perfect good feeling, and without 
 the slightest hesitation, they go wherever they are 
 told ; but they stay away afterwards. 
 
 1043. (Chairman.) Is there any other sugges- 
 tion you have to make ? — There is one point with 
 reference to one set of regulations being strictly 
 enforced throughout the entire force, although the 
 present rules as to the different corps may be neces- 
 sary in some instances ; and there may be some 
 necessity to keep them still up as standing orders, 
 because some corps have, like ourselves, different 
 arrangements about their bands, but in this kind of 
 way it works hardly; for example, if one corps tries 
 to carry out strictly the regulations as to the inspec- 
 tion of arms, or that kind of thing, and another corps 
 close by does not, the men in the cor])s where the 
 orders are strictly carried out consider that they are 
 hardly treated, because they are more strictly looked 
 after than the men in the other corps. 
 
 1044. You would have one set of rules applied to 
 the whole force, to be issued from the War Office ? — 
 Yes, one sc-t of regulations ; and with reference to 
 the regulation by which the arms must be inspected 
 once a month, we find in practice that it is perfectly 
 impossible to inspect our arms once a month ; the 
 system that we have adopted is this, our captains 
 on parade, and our musketry instructors, are lield re- 
 sponsible that the arms of those men who do come to 
 parade are in good order. We give a card of per- 
 mission (signed by the commanding officer) to the men 
 to keep their arms in their own possession ; but we 
 find, as to those men who do not come to parade, that 
 we have no possible means of inspecting their arms 
 monthly. The commanding officer inspects our arms 
 himself personally once a year, and last year we had 
 13 only out of the whole corps who did not send in 
 their arms for inspection, but each one of those 13 
 have since that time been seen by the officers com- 
 manding companies ; and I would respectfully submit 
 to the Commission that if the arms are in good con- 
 dition, and the commanding officer is held responsible 
 that they are so, there is no necessity that they should 
 be seen so frequently, as wo find that it does not 
 work. 
 
 The witness withdrew.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 55 
 
 Major Thomas Huguks examined. 
 
 1045. You commanded the 19th Middlesex Kifle 
 Volunteers ? — I did, but Colonel Bathurst now com- 
 mands the corps. 
 
 10-16. Of how many companies does that corps 
 consist ? — It consists now of ten companies. 
 
 1047. The establishment is 100 men per company? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1048. How many men were there originally raised ? 
 — Originally 240. Tliero are at present 702 on the 
 roll. I think that within the last year we have lost 
 30 or 40 ; that is to say, there have been 30 or 40 
 more withdrawals than entrances. I think tlie reason 
 of this is, that we have thrown upon our captains 
 of companies the responsibility as to the men's sub- 
 scriptions, that is to say, they have to return every 
 month so many eff(?ctivo members, and to pay the 
 subscriptions fbi' those they return. Therefore they 
 have been particular lately in striking out all doubtful 
 members. 
 
 1049. What is the amount of the subscription ? — 
 12*. a year, or Is. a month. 
 
 1050. If a captain has a company consisting of 
 100 men he is responsible for 51. ? — Yes, jjcr month. 
 
 1051. Is there any arrear of subscriptions ? — Yes. 
 The captains owe last month's subscription, aud some 
 small balance besides. When I say they owe, I do 
 not speak as a lawyer. Although we make them re- 
 sponsible in the corps, we could not by law enforce 
 that responsibility against them, but in the corps they 
 are considered responsible and we look to them to 
 jiroduee the amount. 
 
 1052. I presume that there are no arrears ? — Our 
 present position is this ; we give the captains for the 
 last month's subscriptions a margin of about three 
 weeks, and therefore when I say that there are no 
 arrears at the present moment the position of things 
 is this, that there is about the subscription for the 
 last month not paid, but which will be paid in this 
 month. There are some pounds owing, but wo are so 
 within the mark that that which is owing from the 
 companies would more than cover the liabilities of the 
 corps. 
 
 1053. Are the officers expected to pay higher sub- 
 scriptions ? — No, their subscription is the same as 
 the men's. Of course tliere are many voluntary 
 things which the officers do, but the subscription is 
 the same. 
 
 1054. What are the principal expenses which are 
 defrayed out of the funds of the corps ? — The prin- 
 cipal expenses are the expense of headquarters, and, 
 till lately, drill instructors and extra ammunition. 
 
 1055. Do you include a drill shed ? — We drill in 
 the open air always ; there is a small covered place, 
 but that we are verj' seldom in. Until very lately our 
 expenses included a drill serjeant, but now we are at no 
 expense for a drill serjeant, all the extra work beyond 
 what the Government Serjeants do is done by volun- 
 teers. Another expense is the band, but our baud 
 expenses are very small, because we have always felt 
 that that was au expense to be kept down as much as 
 possible, therefore we took none but volunteers. Wo 
 pay the bandmaster a very small salary, and we have 
 no band except what the volunteers furnish; we pay 
 them nothing, but we give the boys their clothes, and 
 these and the bandmaster's salary amounts to between 
 50/. and 60/. a year. 
 
 1056. (Col. 3IacMurdo.) Is that paid out of the 
 funds of the corps ? — Yes, and that is the total amount 
 of the cost of the band, under 60/. a year. Our other 
 expenses are simply for extra ammunition. We have 
 the common expenses of a house and of arranging for 
 going to field days, and small sums for advertising and 
 so on. But we stand literally at very small expense. I 
 should mention that we have a certain fee to pay at 
 Plumstead every week ; we have the use of the Govern- 
 ment range not having one of our own, and we have 
 every day that we go Plumstead to pay a certain fee 
 to the Government people there who arc in charge of 
 the range. 
 
 1057. ( Chairman.) Are the expenses of the journey 
 to and from Plumstead paid by the men ? Yes. 
 
 1058. Are the expenses of attending all the brigade 
 and divisional iield days also paid by the men? — Yes, 
 always. 
 
 1059. Have you over contributed anything towards 
 the uniform of the men ? — When the corps was first 
 started wo got a certain sum of money subscribed by 
 strangers outside the corps. Wo had then something 
 under 200/. subscribed by persons outside tlie corps, 
 and when this money came in a sum of 50/. was voted 
 to assist those members of the corps who could not 
 purchase their own uniforms. I was then in command 
 of the corps, and the giving out of this money was 
 lel't in my hands. It was not to be known who had 
 it, but the men would just come to me, and if they 
 wanted assistance I was to consider how much should 
 be allowed to them out of the 50/. The applica- 
 tions in that way did not exhaust the 50/., for a cer- 
 tain balance was returned by me. Since then we have 
 never allowed anything ; the men have found their 
 own clothes entirely. 
 
 1060. When the clothing of the men requires re- 
 newal, do you think there will be any difficulty in 
 getting it renewed ? — I believe that there will be 
 none whatever, so far as I have seen. My experience 
 is that there is no difficulty as to the clothing. Our 
 corps is, I suppose, the poorest in London, there not 
 being more than seven or eight gentlemen in it ; but 
 as to the clothing I see no difficulty. Wo have never 
 found any. The only difficulty has been to keep the 
 clothing as simple as possible ; in fact, that the men 
 should get cheap clothing instead of dear clothing. 
 We have a certain number of men in the corps, almost 
 the first men who joined it, and who influence the 
 corps a good deal, aud they are strongly against any 
 expense in the shape of ornaments. Altogether the 
 men pay down pretty well, and there is no difficulty 
 about the uniform. The men you want will pay, and 
 ought to pay, for their uniforms, aud they will be just 
 the men who will keep the uniforms simple and cheap. 
 
 1061. What is the expense of your uniform? — 
 Within a few shillings of 3/. 
 
 1062. What is the expense of the accoutrements ? — 
 I mean for the whole thing, 3/. pays for belt and 
 everything. I should say that lately the men have 
 carried a cross belt. That we resisted, but they wear 
 it now, and I think that the cross belt would bring 
 the whole cost to \s. or 2s. over 3/. Within the last 
 few months we have allowed the members to vote 
 upon the matter, and they carried the cross belt. 
 
 1063. Have you not any knapsack ? — No. 
 
 1064. Nor a great coat ? — There is a great coat, but 
 we do not enforce it. We have a havi-esack, and that 
 is included in the estimate. 
 
 1065. You stated just now that you did not con- 
 tribute any additional sum to the drill Serjeants ? — 
 1 es. 
 
 1066. They merely receive the pay received from the 
 Government ? — Yes, but we give them lodging. We 
 have a house at headquarters, and there are a certain 
 number of rooms which we give them ; that and coals. 
 They have their pay. We give them nothing more. 
 
 1067. That is paid for out of the regimental fund ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 1068. How often do you have battalion drills ? — 
 Once a week. We have battalion drill on Saturdays 
 aud adjutant's drill on Wednesdays. 
 
 1069. You do not, I presume, allow a man to attend 
 a battalion drill who has not attended a certain num- 
 ber of setting-up drills? — We have three classes. The 
 adjutant begins at the beginning .of the year in 
 January, and he passes the men through those classes. 
 There is a certain efficiency required in each class ; 
 when a man joins he goes into the third class, and 
 having acquired a certain degree of efficiency he is 
 put into the second cla,s.s. That will enable him to 
 attend the adjutant's drill. The adjutant exiimines 
 him again when ho has passed through his second 
 
 H 4 
 
 Maj. 
 7, lluylies. 
 
 .3 June 18G2.
 
 56 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. 
 T. Ilughen. 
 
 3 June 18G2. 
 
 class, and if he is declared fit lie is put into the first 
 class, and then, and not before, he attends battalion 
 drills and field days. Wo have found that to be a 
 very useful rule. Unfortunately in the turn wliich 
 things have taken in the volunteers, it is very dilhcult 
 now to give the men the idea that it is a favour to 
 let them join your corps, but having classes in that 
 way operates as a stimulus, which is very useful. 
 
 1070. What is the turn which things have taken to 
 which you just alluded ? — I think all the excessive 
 expense to which most corps have gone in the shape 
 of prizes and bands, and so on, has demoralized the 
 corps. Now the men are constantly in the habit 
 of leaving, or of threatening to leave, corps which are 
 not managed as they like. 
 
 1071. You are of opinion tliat these expenses are 
 unnecessary ? — Yes, I do consider them unnecessary; 
 and I was going to say that they have ruined us, but 
 that is not so, because there is a very sound part 
 in the metropolitan force, a very sound nucleus in 
 every corps, of men wlio come from right motives, 
 considering that it is their duty to take part in the 
 defence of the country if necessary. But a very large 
 proportion of them come from the vanity of the thing, 
 and because there are those immense prizes held out 
 to thein. There is extraordinary expense gone to in 
 entertainments of all sorts, and follies which have in 
 my opinion done more harm to the volunteer move- 
 ment in the metropolis than any other single thing. 
 
 1072. ( Viscount HarcUngc.) Can you see any rea- 
 son why the system of economy which you have 
 introduced into your corps, and which, from your own 
 evidence, appears to have been highly successful, 
 should not be applied to the other metropolitan corjjs? 
 — I think that unless this Commission should, or Par- 
 liament should enforce some economy of that sort, no 
 good will be done whatever by this inquiry. I think 
 that that is the first thing that is wanted to be done. 
 If any help is given to the volunteers at ali, it should 
 be given upon some such plan as this, — that no 
 Government relief should be given to any corps which 
 expends above a certain per-centage of its funds upon 
 bands and entertainments, silver prizes, and so on, and 
 all those extravagances. 
 
 1073. What does your band cost ? — £60 a year, or 
 a little under. We made a strong resistance to any 
 band, but we wore obliged to have one. 
 
 1074. {Chairman.^ Do you think that the effi- 
 ciency of the corps, if your plan of economy were 
 adopted, could be jireserved without an}' assistance 
 from the Government ? — No ; I think there must be 
 some assistance given. But I think that the great 
 object in giving it will be, to give it only on condition 
 of the corps keeping down the extravagances which 
 have grown up to so large an extent, and that corps 
 whose returns and accounts show that they have ex- 
 pended such large sums as are spent every day on 
 follies should not be assisted to the same extent as 
 those corps which show by their accounts that tliey 
 have simply expended all their funds on necessaries. 
 
 1075. (^Viscount Hardinc/e.) I dni'e say you arc 
 aware that some corps expend from 300/. to 600/. per 
 annum on their bands ? — Yes ; one at least spends 
 more than that. 
 
 1076. {C7i(iirman.) To what extent do you think it 
 would be necessary to grant assistance to tlie volunteer 
 corps ? — No man can speak confidently of any but his 
 own corps. From what I have seen of the country 
 corps I believe they are very poorly off, and I am 
 sure that they must, if they are to go on, have very 
 considerable assistance. But, speaking entirely for 
 my own corps now, I think that what would be quite 
 sufficient to keep us effective in every respect would 
 be to take off tlie shoulders of the men their present 
 subscription. I mean to say, that if they got \'2s. a 
 year, which is the amount of our suliscription^not 
 per head, but per effective man, who has passed into 
 the first class and appears at the inspection ; if we 
 got that sum we could keep our corps perfectly 
 eflective and going on satisfactorily. 
 
 1077. You would not anticipate any diminution in 
 
 the numbers if that plan were adopted ? — I think 
 not. 
 
 1078. {Earl of Dncie.) Could you by an increased 
 expenditure increase the cfhciency of your corps? — 
 No ; but we could increase our numbers. 
 
 1079. ( Viscount Ilciidinge.) Would you recom- 
 mend that the Vis. should be spent entirely at the 
 discretion of the commanding officer ? — I have scarcely 
 considered tliat point. 
 
 1080. AVould you prefer that the aid from the 
 Government should be given in a more indirect way, 
 and that an estimate should be sent in from a corps 
 showing the expenses for headquarters, a range, Ser- 
 jeants, and so on, and that the assistance should be 
 given indirectly under those heads, rather than by a 
 direct grant to be expended at the discretion of the 
 commanding officer ? — Speaking off-hand, I should 
 prefer that each corps should send in a specification, 
 so much for a range, so much for headquarters, and 
 so on. My reason is that I think there would be a 
 better hold upon the expenditure. My object is to 
 have an efficient force at as cheap a rate as possible 
 to the country ; and I think that whatever will have 
 the effect of minimising the relief that must be 
 granted, taking care that that relief is applied entirely 
 to the necessary wants of the corps, and not to 
 extravagance, would be the best plan. 
 
 1081. If a capitation grant were made by the 
 Government, to be spent entirely at the discretion of 
 the commanding officer, the Government would have 
 no security that it was not spent upon bauds ?— None 
 whatever. 
 
 1082. {Lord Overstone.') In addition to the conside- 
 ration which you have very properly mentioned, that 
 of its being important to have the most efficient force 
 at the smallest possible cost, and therefore, on that 
 account, that the Government advance should be as 
 small as possible, do you not think that the sense of 
 receiving Government aid is in some degree antago- 
 nistic to the great principle of the volunteer move- 
 ment ? — Yes, I think so. It is unfortunate that tliere 
 should be a necessity, and it is with great reluctance 
 that I would receive a penny. 
 
 1083. Notwithstanding that, you still think that 
 Government aid, to some limited extent, and in some 
 qualified form, is still desirable, if not absolutely neces- 
 sary ? — I think it is absolutely necessary, if you desire 
 to keep up the force at anything like its jiresent 
 numbers. 
 
 1084. Have you formed anything like a deliberate 
 judgment upon the question whether, during a period 
 in which the apprehension of serious danger to the 
 safety of the country is not strong, it is desirable to 
 make great efforts to keep up the force in its present 
 state of efficiency, orwhon the danger was the greatest? 
 — I think that whatever force you have it is absolutely 
 necessary to keep it in the highest possible state of 
 efficiency. It is quite another question whether it is 
 desirable to keep up tb.e force at any particular num- 
 ber, say, 150,000 or 100,000 ; but wliatever force you 
 liave, it would be useless, unless you keep it in cer- 
 tainly as etlicient a state as it is in now. 
 
 1085. I understand you to mean that whatever the 
 number of the force may be, the most essenti.al princi- 
 pal is that that number should be kept in a high state 
 of discipline and organization ? — Quite so ; and that 
 is the reason why I stated that whatever aid is given 
 should be only given to first-class men. You should 
 entirely keep out of sight all those who are not reported 
 by the adjutant to the commanding officer as first-class 
 men. 
 
 1086. Do you think that during a period of com- 
 parative confidence and absence of alarm a more 
 limited number of men, still kept up in a state of high 
 elficiency, would be sufficient for every essential pur- 
 pose of any volunteer movement ? — Guarding myself 
 as merely expressing my own private opinion, t answer 
 Yes. 
 
 1087. I think you have stated that your corps is 
 one of the poorest in the metropolis ? — I believe it to 
 be the poorest.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT IllUTAIN, 
 
 iU 
 
 1088. NotwithstandiniT that, you feel perfectly satis- 
 fied that the clothing of tliat corps ought to be and 
 may be properly left to the resources of the corps 
 itself ? — Yes ; and I say so for this reason, wiiich I 
 have given before, that there was a certain sum of 
 money set apart for the purpose of assisting members 
 who so desired it, and who chose to come to mo and 
 say that they were too poor to clothe thems(.'h es ; and 
 out of the subscri|)tions that came from the ))ul)lic for 
 that purpose they were assisted, lint the fund so set 
 apart was not exhausted, and I returned a part of it, 
 after keeping it lor a sufficient time, into the funds of 
 tlie corps, and ever since then we have never assisted 
 any member by a single penny, e-xcept the boys in the 
 band. We were obliged to dress them, but that is 
 included in the 60/. a year. 
 
 1089. Is it the result of your observations that there 
 is at the present time a decided tendency to diminished 
 efficiency in the volunteer corps, either as to their 
 numbers or their discipline and numbers? — I think 
 there is a decided tendency to a falling oft" in their 
 numbers ; but so far as my own experience goes, 
 those who stick to it, stick to it from a good motive ; 
 and they become more and more efficient, and more 
 and more reliable. In my own corps there is a 
 large per-centage who will do that, and upon whom 
 we can thoroughly rely. There is also in the corps a 
 certain surplus upon whom we feel that we have a 
 very insecure hold, and who may go any day. 
 
 1090. Do you attribute that tendency to diminished 
 numbers to any one specific cause ? — I attribute it, 
 not to any one specific cause, but to several specific 
 causes. 
 
 1091. Will }'ou be good enough to state what you 
 consider to be the principal causes ? — In the first 
 place, there has been an entire re-action in a certain 
 portion of the force, arising from such causes as want 
 of purpose, disappointed vanity, and so on. Then, 
 unfortunately, we have had, in the public press and in 
 other quarters, a very false stimulus applied to tlie 
 volunteers. They have been petted and spoiled, and 
 the consequence has been that we have got in a lot of 
 men who did not come in seriously from a patriotic 
 desire to do their best for the defence of the 
 country ; and these men are now tired of the work, 
 and falling away fast. Tiicn thei-e are prize 
 meetings, and balls, and all such things as those ; 
 great entertainments at which large sums are spent 
 upon the frivolous part of volunteering. There are 
 very great inducements of that kind held out, and 
 those inducements have been brought to bear upon 
 a lot of men who have not come in seriously, and 
 boys who have not come in seriously. But these, 
 I think, are beginning to slack off, and I have no 
 doubt that if matters go on as they are we shall 
 lose a very considerable number in that way. I 
 think that there is a small proportion whom we 
 shall not really lose, but whom we shall nomi- 
 nally lose ; men who have made themselves com- 
 petent and thoroughly efiicient in drill, but who 
 find now that the attendance is burdensome, and 
 therefore they drop out of the ranks, but they are 
 men upon whom we can rely. The Act of Parlia- 
 ment requires so many attendances, and those attend- 
 ances it is not convenient for them to give ; but I 
 believe that in the event of any serious demand being 
 made for their services, as in the case of an invasion, 
 we should get them again directly. We cannot return 
 them as efic-ctives, but we should have them again. 
 I look upon them as not being lost, and I should very 
 much like to see a law passed by which we could 
 retain those men on the strength of the corps instead 
 of losing them. 
 
 1092. I understand your view to be that the volun- 
 teer movement was originally constituted under two 
 classes of motives : one, the light and frivolous, and 
 therefore the non-permanent motive, and the other 
 a deep sense of public feeling and principle ? — Not 
 exactly. I think that the volunteer movement started 
 under a real sense of public duty ; and that the men 
 who first came in, came in on the right principle. 
 
 They came in to do the thing as reasonably and offec- 
 tually as possible, and it was not until all this fuss was 
 made, and they were told, by some of their leaders and 
 the press, that they were better than soldiers, and 
 they betran to get oO/. prizes to siioot for, it was 
 not until then that we got the eh^incnt which has 
 been to us, from the beginning, an element of trouble 
 and anxiety, and in fact an element which I, for one, 
 do not value higldy. However, 1 nmst say that many 
 of those who came in afterwards, and to wliom I 
 refer as coming in from finding that it was a thing 
 for which they were jiraised up. — I think that many 
 of those who came in afterwards have since taken a 
 very right part ; and I think they look upon tlie 
 work now as a duty, and many of them are as sound 
 members as the others. But I have found in my own 
 corps that there is a nucleus of those first men who 
 did come in, upon whom we have to rely ; it is around 
 them that the rest gather ; they leaven the rest, and 
 so far as they leaven the rest the corps is the better 
 for it. 
 
 1093. Can you form any judgment as to the extent 
 to which the ]iresent volunteer force coidd l)e main- 
 tained upon the sup))osition that those habits which 
 you designate as frivolous and injudicious were 
 abandoned ? — I can judge only from my own corps ; 
 and I think that wo should lose, perhaps, about l.*; per 
 cent. 
 
 1094. [Lord E/r/io.) Would they be of a cla.ss 
 which would be a great loss to you ? — Not in my 
 opinion. 
 
 1095. (Lord Ovcrstone.) Do you think that that 
 portion of the volunteer force which has been either 
 drawn into it, or which is now retained in it under 
 the motives which you have alluded to, is by any 
 means equal in value, for the real purposes of the 
 force, to that portion of the force which is retained in 
 it by the higher principle which you have alluded 
 to ? — Certainly not, speaking of my own corps. 
 
 1096. Do you think that you can with any degree 
 of accuracy distinguish between those two classes ? — 
 In my own corps I can, and therefore perhaps I 
 should state the reasons why I can. My corps is 
 a peculiar corps. The three first companies were 
 formed in the working men's college in the north of 
 London, in which I have been for years one of the 
 council, and therefore I know the men intimately. I 
 had been connected with them both as teacher and as 
 a member of the council for a long time, and therefore 
 I knew the men much more intimately than I should 
 suppose any commanding officer ordinarily could know 
 the men who came to him. Therefore I stand in a 
 peculiar position ; my experience would scarcely be of 
 any great value, because it is a special experience, 
 and therefore I wish to guard myself by saying that 
 I can speak only of my own corps. 
 
 1097. I understand you to be of opinion, founded 
 of course upon your experience, that the most prudent 
 mode of dealing with the volunteer force would be to 
 extend a limited amount of Government pecuniary 
 aid upon conditions which should exclude those corps 
 in which the expenditure had been been carried on 
 in an extravagant manner ? — I think if that could be 
 done it would be very desirable. 
 
 1098. Do you think it would bo difficult to do that? 
 — I have been considering the matter a good deal 
 since the appointment of this commission, and I have 
 found that it is very difficult to see how it could be 
 very well done ; still I think it may be done. 
 
 1099. Can you throw out any suggestion as to the 
 mode of approaching that result ? — My own impres- 
 sion is that in any corps in which more than a 
 certain proportion of the funds or annual income was 
 spent in a certain manner, say on bands, prizes, balls, 
 &c., that there is no reason why assistance sliould be 
 given to those corps. 
 
 1100. You are of opinion that the advisable course 
 for this Commission to take would be to devise, if 
 possible, some terms or conditions on which Govern- 
 ment assistance sliould be rendered ; those terms and 
 conditions being framed with a view, if possible, to 
 
 ^fuj. 
 T. Huijlies. 
 
 3 June 18B2.
 
 §8 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. 
 T. Hmjlies. 
 
 3 June 18B2. 
 
 limiting the Government assistance to cases in wliich 
 there had previously been no foolish expenditure ? — • 
 Decidedly. 
 
 1101. But you think that Government assistance 
 to a certain extent is essential towards maintaining 
 tlie efficiency of tlie volunteer corps ? — Yes. 
 
 1 102. You would recommend as the result of your 
 experience and judgment that Government assistance 
 should be given to that extent and upon the conditions 
 suggested ? — Yes ; if I could do without a penny I 
 would not have it. I think it is the business of a 
 volunteer force to do without a penny if they can 
 avoid taking it from the country. But my belief is, 
 that in order to keep the volunteer force in a state of 
 proper efficiency certain aid must be given to certain 
 corps. 
 
 1103. I understand your feelinir to bo that the 
 receipt of Government aid is in itself to a greater or 
 lesser degree antagonistic to the principle of the 
 volunteer movement, but notwithstanding that, some 
 interference on the part of the Government is neces- 
 sary, but that it should be guarded by many very 
 cautious restrictions, in order to prevent the growth 
 of extravagant and foolish habits of expenditure ? — 
 Yes, and I think that you would be doing tlie greatest 
 possible benefit if you could worlc out any plan by 
 which the extravagance, the stupid and demoralizing 
 expenditure which has taken place, could be cut down. 
 
 1104. {Lord Elcho.) You have mentioned as one 
 example of tliat demoralizing and foolish expenditure, 
 balls ?— Yes. 
 
 1 105. Without giving any opinion as to whether 
 it is wise or unwise to have bazaars, balls, and con- 
 certs, is it not the case that those bazaars, balls, and 
 concerts have not been so much expenditure on the 
 part of the corps for amusement, but the object has 
 been to raise funds to carry on the corps ? — I do not 
 know. 
 
 1 106. You have spoken generally of balls and con- 
 certs having taken place in other corps, and I ask 
 you whether it is not the case, that instead of money 
 being expended for those balls and concerts for the 
 amusement of the corps, they have not been given 
 with the object of raising funds to meet the expenses 
 of the corps ? — I believe that that has been so in 
 general ; but I also know that in several cases those 
 entertainments have resulted in throwing a conside- 
 rable amount of extra expense upon the corps. 
 
 1107. That is to say the speculation has failed ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1108. But it was not with the view of spending 
 the money of the corps that they had recoui'se to 
 those balls and concerts, but to obtain funds for the 
 corps ? — Yes, in many cases it has been so ; but in 
 some corps the expense has been deliberately in- 
 curred ; in some corps it has not been simply a 
 method of obtaining funds, but it has been deliberate 
 extravagance. 
 
 1109. Do you know of any corps in which balls 
 have been given for the sake of the balls themselves, 
 and not for the sake of getting money for the use of 
 the corps ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 1110. Supposing that the line that you have sug- 
 gested should be drawn, namely that those corps only 
 should receive Government assistance which had not 
 been frivolous in their expenditure, how many corps 
 in London do you think would so receive assistance ? 
 — Three or four, perhaps. 
 
 1111. Out of about 40? — Yes; but bear in mind 
 that I do not mean to say that those corps which 
 have done many of these things should be absolutely 
 excluded, but what I mean is, that a scale should 
 be laid down, if possible, so that those corps which 
 had spent 50 per cent, of their incomes upon such 
 matters should not receive the same amount of 
 assistance as those corps which had spent, say, only 
 5 per cent. ; it is clear that they do not want aid 
 who apply these large sums to improper purposes. 
 
 1112. You have mentioned prizes as being a 
 frivolous part of the movement ; do you consider that 
 rifle shooting is an inducement to men to volunteer 
 
 and to remain in their corps, and an amusement 
 which is likely to be permanently attractive ? — I 
 think it not only an amusement which the men like, 
 and not only likely to be permanently attractive, 
 but I think it is of immense importance to keep up 
 the practice of rifle shooting, and to encourage the 
 men to give their best energies to it. I consider 
 that of the highest possible importance, but I think 
 that that can be done without giving high prizes. 
 
 1113. You do not object to prizes, but you think 
 that the prizes given are too high ? — I object to all 
 prizes in principle. We must have some, but the 
 lower they are kept the better. I think that rifle 
 shooting would be quite as well kept up, like cricket 
 or boating, by a small medal, or a little silver or 
 bronze rifle, or some similar thing ; but you do not 
 want a tea pot that costs 50 guineas — only something 
 for a man to show to his friends and enable him to 
 say that he has been out on such and such a day and 
 helped his corps or his county to win. 
 
 J 114. It is not to the principle, but to the abuse of 
 the principle of shooting for prizes that you are 
 opposed ? — Entirely so. 
 
 1115. With regard to bands, would you object to 
 a corps spending its money on a baud provided that 
 the money came from special subscriptions on the 
 part of members of the corps, and was not taken out 
 of the annual subscriptions or the ordinary funds of the 
 corps ? — I am sorry to say that the bands are a 
 necessity ; I quite admit that it is necessary for each 
 corps to have a band, and it is the duty of the com- 
 manding officer of each corps to get that band as 
 cheaply as possible, and to get it by volunteers if 
 possible, and if he cannot so get it to get one as 
 cheaply as he can. 
 
 1116. I understood you to say that you had two 
 classes of men in your corps, one class that joined you 
 from a sense of public duty, and another from rather 
 more frivolous motives, is that so ? — It is. There 
 are two distinct classes. 
 
 1117. Those who were actuated by public principle 
 joined you at first, but latterly you have been joined 
 by men from other motives ? — Yes, generally speaking 
 those who came in afterwards came in from lower 
 motives. 
 
 1118. {Colonel MacMurdo.) Have those who first 
 joined you fallen away much ? — Not at all ; the 
 nucleus of the corp is as sound as it can be. The 
 few of the good men who have gone are men upon 
 whom we can put our hands any day. The sub- 
 scription of Is. a. month is something, although it is 
 not much ; but the necessary attendance is a pull upon 
 them. The time is so much out of their pocket, because 
 they are men who live by their daily wages ; but if 
 there were any real demand for their services we could 
 get them. But of the other class of men who have left us 
 many have gone into other corps, where perhaps they 
 get a finer dress, or where their friends are ; altogether 
 we have lost more than we have gained in the last year. 
 
 1119. {Lord Elcho.) Have you lost many of the 
 men who first joined you ? — We have lost a few of 
 those, but, as I have stated before, we know generally 
 where they are, and can get them. 
 
 1120. In your corps what were the inducements 
 which led the other class of men to come to you, 
 because I presume that you have avoided high prizes 
 and balls, and those frivolous inducements to which 
 you have referred ? — Simply this, there was great 
 excitement about the matter, and every youngster in 
 London was wanting to get into some volunteer 
 corps. They looked about to see which corps they 
 could get into in the cheapest way, and they found 
 that in ours the subscription was perhaps the smallest 
 in London, and they came accordingly. That I think 
 was the principal reason, that our subscription was 
 very small, and so we got those other men. The 
 reasons why they have gone are many ; some of them 
 got tired of it, and some of them liked to get a finer 
 uniform. 
 
 1121. The expense of your corps being less, and 
 the cost of the uniform being less than in other
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THK CONDITION OK THK VOLUNTEEH FOKCE IN GllEAT BRITAIN. 
 
 59 
 
 corps, you think have been tlie inducementH of many- 
 men to come to you who would otlierwiso have gone 
 into other corps ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 1122. You have stated that you do not anticipate 
 any difficulty with regard to clothing your corps, and 
 you have also stated that a fund was raised out of 
 which those who chose to come forward and apply 
 for it were assisted. Have you had any defaults in 
 the repayments ? — I kept the books and accounts for 
 the first nine or ten months, and during that time the 
 instalments were almost universally paid. But with 
 respect to that matter the clothing fund was ]ilaced 
 in the hands of one of our captains, whom I should 
 advise the commissioners to examine. He consulted 
 me while I was in command, but since that time I 
 have no special knowledge. We have never had to 
 sue any member.* I have been surprised at the 
 punctuality with which, on the whole, the instalments 
 have been paid. When I became commanding officer, 
 and undertook the responsibility, I fully expected to 
 have to make up a considerable deficiency on account 
 of defalcations, and that the men would often not 
 repay the instalments which they undertook to pay ; 
 we let them pay, some of them, as low as Is. 6d. a 
 week, and, as I have stated, I fully expected, as the 
 then commanding officer of the corps, to have to make 
 up a considerable sum. But 1 have never paid a 
 penny, and I do not believe that Colonel Bathurst has 
 ever paid a penny. 
 
 1 1 23. Are you of opinion that your artizans will 
 be able to renew their uniform ? — Yes. 
 
 1124. Many of them ? — All the good ones. 
 
 1125. What proportion of them do you think will 
 be able to renew them ? — I believe that all the good 
 men will bo able. 
 
 1126. Do you reckon that 50 per cent, of them 
 will be able to renew their uniforms ? — About half, 
 I think, will certainly do it. 
 
 1127. About half of them would renew their uni- 
 forms? — About half of the artizans. Our corps is com- 
 posed of about half artizans and half clerks and others. 
 I think that about half the artizans are thorough good 
 men, and will renew their uniforms ; as to the clerks, 
 it is not so important to them. I think that probably 
 every one of them will renew his uniform, at any rate 
 that this expense will not deter one of them from 
 going on. 
 
 1128. Do you believe that the other half of the 
 artizans vrould continue in the corps if their clothing 
 was provided for them, and they had no expense to 
 meet but the subscription ? — I do not say that the 
 other half will not remain in any case, but I feel con- 
 fident as to the half, that the half will go on, that 
 they have put their hand to it and that they will not go 
 back, and that they will do whatever is necessary, even 
 at great sacrifice to keep to it. I will not say that the 
 other half of the artizans will go unless they get their 
 clothing, but I think it is possible that they may. 
 
 1129. Without assistance do you think that your 
 artizan corps can be kept up to its present strength ? 
 —No. 
 
 1130. In expressing the feeling that you would 
 not receive a penny if you could avoid it, do you 
 believe that that is the general feeling of the volunteer 
 corps ? — No, I do not believe it is the general feeling, 
 but I believe that all the best men in the volunteers 
 would feel so. 
 
 1131. Do you not think that the volunteers would, 
 if they could afford it, continue to pay their subscrip- 
 tions, and if they fall off it is their poverty and not 
 their will which leads to it ? — Yes, in most eases. 
 
 1132. Is it the case in your opinion that they 
 benefit from volunteering universally ? — I believe it 
 is so. 
 
 1133. Have not the expenses fallen very heavily 
 upon individuals ? — Speaking from general knowledge 
 and from rumour I believe it is so, but speaking from 
 
 * The witness wishes to correct this statement. lie finds on 
 inquiry that since he gave up the command seven summonses 
 have been issued for arrears, all in one company. 
 
 my own individual knowledge I should say no. I 
 believe that the expenses have fallen very seriously 
 on individuals in many corps, but it has not been so 
 ill ours. 
 
 1134. What is the cost of your uniform ? — Three 
 pounds. 
 
 1135. How long do you reckon it will last ? — Three 
 years. 
 
 1136. Do you think that an outlay of 3/., or II. a 
 year for uniform, and 124-. for subscription is a very 
 heavy tax which an artizan |iays fur the privilege of 
 serving his country as a volunteer ? — Yes; I think it 
 is very heavy, but I think it is a tax which all those 
 men who are worth anything have willingly under- 
 taken. No doubt they would be very glad to bo 
 relieved from a portion of it, and I believe that the 
 country ought to be very grateful to the men who 
 pay it. 
 
 1137. Have you any rifle range ? — No. We shoot 
 at Plumstead. 
 
 1138. How many of j^our men have fired at all 
 with ball ? — My impression is that more than half of 
 the corps have done so this year. 
 
 1139. Have you found your musters fall off very 
 much since the Brighton field day ? — Yes. 
 
 1140. What has been the smallest number which 
 you have had at battalion parade since that time ? — 
 At one battalion parade we were I think under 130. 
 
 1141. Is it the fact that since the Brighton field 
 day you have mustered at battalion parade only 25 ? 
 — Never at battalion parade. 
 
 1142. {Viscount Hardinge.) You have stated that 
 you deprecate field days ? — No ; I think them very 
 useful indeed, but I deprecate all excitement about 
 them, all the fuss that is made about them. 
 
 1143. {Col. MacMurdo.) Is it a review that you 
 deprecate ? — I do not deprecate it, but I deprecate the 
 perpetual excitement that there is about it, and the men 
 being led to think that volunteering cannot go on unless 
 there is this excitement and a perpetual effort to keep 
 the excitement up. The men who are worth any- 
 thing will stay, and therefore when we have these 
 field days the more quiet they are the better, and the 
 less excited the volunteers are about them the better. 
 
 1144. {Viscount Hardinge.) Did the working men 
 in your corps pay for their fares to Brighton and 
 back ? — Yes, every man of them. 
 
 1145. When they go to practice at Plumstead do 
 they pay ? — Yes, they pay every Saturday, and a very 
 great tax it is upon them. 
 
 1146. {Lord Elcho.) Does it cost them Is. each ? 
 No, 6d. 
 
 1147. {Viscount Hardinge.) What do you pay for 
 your headquarters ? — We pay 40/. for the whole of 
 the house ; the adjutant lives there and he takes a 
 certain portion of the rent off our shoulders. 
 
 1148. Where do you drill ? — In the playground of 
 the London University; we have our battalion drills 
 and adjutant drills there in the winter ; we have our 
 company drills in a space behind the college, we have 
 laid it down in gravel and we drill the college com- 
 panies there ; there is company drill also at the 
 quarters of the out companies, and the battalion and 
 adjutant drills are in the University ground, unless 
 we go to the Regent's park. 
 
 1149. Do you think that the expense of head- 
 quarters could be reduced in the metropolitan corps ? 
 It is a very serious expense. 
 
 1 1 50. Do you see your way to any reduction in 
 that item ? — I do not know what it costs in any 
 corps but my own, but I know that many of them 
 must be very expensive. I do not think we can 
 reduce our head-quarters' expenses. 
 
 1151. Do you give any extra allowance to the 
 Government serjeants ? — Lodging, coals, and I be- 
 lieve candles. 
 
 1152. Do you give any additional allowance to 
 the adjutant? — We give none, but he pays us for 
 his lodging. 
 
 1153. {Col. MacMurdo.) Does the adjutant subsist 
 
 'l 2 
 
 Maj. 
 T. Huyhes. 
 
 3 June 1862.
 
 60 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. 
 T. HiKjhes. 
 
 3 June 1S62. 
 
 upon Iiis pay ? — I am sure he doos, at least 1 do not 
 know what else he has to sulisist upon. 
 
 1154. Has he ever complained of his pay and 
 allowances ? — Never. 
 
 11.55. (Viscon?it Hardingc.) Are you aware that 
 the adjutants receive a considerable sum in addition 
 to their pay ? — I have heard so, but our adjutant 
 does not. He was a non-commissioned officer. 
 
 1156. {Col. MacMiirilo.) In the early part of your 
 evidence you stated. I think, that among the expenses 
 which fall heavily upon the corps extra ammunition 
 was one ? — Not now, we pay nothing now ; we have 
 not paid anything for a long time. 
 
 1157. You find that the Government allowance is 
 quite sufficient ? — Yes, quite sufficient. 
 
 1158. {3Iajor Harcoiirt.) Does your .adjutant find 
 sufficient work to employ him the whole day ? — I 
 should think he did. 
 
 1159. Is he employed in the day time as well as in 
 the evening ? — I think so ; our corps is scattered ; 
 we have out-lying companies, we have one at Price's 
 patent candle mannfiictorj', then there is another 
 company at Paddingron, and there is another close to 
 Regent street, so that the adjutant has a great^deal 
 of work to do in consequence of the scattered nature 
 of the corps. 
 
 1160. {Liput.-Col. Barttelnf.) Do you keep your 
 rifles in the armoury ? — Each member of the first 
 class has his own rifle. 
 
 1161. (Lord Overstone.) Do you think that wc 
 ought to consider this volunteer movement as a sort 
 of levee en masse of nearly every person physically 
 capable of bearing arms, defraying the expenses of 
 the movement from whatever source the money can be 
 obtained from, or do you think it ought tn be looked 
 upon in principle as a self-supporting institution, the 
 persons joining it finding the means of defraying the 
 expenses connected with it for the pui'pose of keeping 
 them down to the lowest possible amount ? — I feel 
 very strongly that it is the duty of every man now 
 who can do so to learn the use of arms in order that 
 he may be able to take part in the defence of the 
 country, and the more reasonably that can be done 
 the better. If you can excite sufficient patriotism 
 amongst the men of England, or get sufficient funds 
 subscribed to enable them to do so without coming 
 to the Government, I think it would be better, but I 
 feel, nevertheless that at pi-esent there must be aid 
 given. ' But the right principle is, decidedly, that 
 men should come forward to defend their country, if 
 possible, at their own expense. 
 
 1162. (Viseoiint Hnrdingc.) Do you think that 
 further aid in whatever shape given will to some 
 extent alter the character of the force ? — No, we 
 have aid already ; we have rifles, adjutants, and 
 drill Serjeants. 
 
 1163. Do you mean that further aid would not 
 .alter the character of the force ? — I think that 
 indiscriminate aid would demoralize it .still further ; 
 but further aid, if properly applied, will not alter 
 the character of the force. 
 
 1164. {Lord Overs/one.) Is it your opinion that it 
 is important to maintain the general character of 
 this force as a self-supporting force, and that what- 
 ever aid is obtained consistently with that pi-inciple 
 should be in such limited amounts and upon such terms 
 
 as should not invalidate the great principle of its 
 being a self-supporting movement ? — Yes. 
 
 1165. {Lord Ehlio.) You have stated that suppos- 
 ing 1/., or any definite sum, was given to be expended 
 by the commanding officer in the way that he thought 
 best for the good of his regiment, the Government 
 would have no security that it was properly spent ? — 
 I did not mean to say that ; it depends upon the 
 character of the commanding officer. 
 
 1166. Might not the application of the money be 
 restricted to certain things ? — That is just what I 
 wish to see. 
 
 1 167. You have suggested that commanding officers 
 should send in certain specifications; in that case you 
 must trust to their honour quite as much as you would 
 in any other case, must you not ? — It is one thing to 
 make a man sit down and go through the returns 
 sent in by his adjutant, saying we want so much for 
 headquarters, and so much tor other purjioses, for 
 then a man begins to think seriously what he will 
 sign, but if you say to him, "it is to be 1/. a man," 
 " yes," ho would say, " I shall spend that all right." 
 
 1168. Supposing that the alternative is a si)ecifica- 
 tion in the spending of a certain sum in certain cases 
 would it not come practically to the same thing ? — I 
 think not. 
 
 1 169. You have proposed that a commanding officer 
 should send in with the assistance of his adjutant a 
 specification saying that he requires a certain sum 
 for certain things ; the alternative that I suggest is 
 that a certain sum should be allowed to a command- 
 ing officer which he at his discretion should expend 
 upon certain fixed things for the benefit of his regi- 
 ment, not excluding bands and those things which 
 arc considered legitimate expenses ? — I do not see 
 any real difterence except that the trouble would 
 come beforehand in the one case, and afterwards in 
 the other. 
 
 1170. {Lieut.-Col. Barltelot.) You have stated 
 that you have lost several of your best men from 
 your corps who are unable to attend the number of 
 drills prescribed by the Government. If that number 
 were reduced to eight drills a year, do you think 
 that you could have retained those men ? — Yes, I 
 think so. 
 
 1171. {Earl of Dude.') You have stated that j^our 
 corps is a very poor one, partly composed of artizans 
 and the remainder consisting of clerks ? — Yes, and 
 warehousemen, shopmen, and others. 
 
 1 172. What are the average wages of the artizans ? 
 — We have among them some skilled engra^'crt, piano- 
 forte makers, and other highly paid mechanios, others 
 are mere common labourers ; the wages of labourers 
 in London are IS.s. a week, which is the minimum in 
 our corps, except that we have a few boys who are 
 still to a certain extent supported by their parents ; 
 shoemakers may average less, but 18*. a week is the 
 lowest recognized wages. 
 
 1173. Are there many men receiving wages so 
 small as that ? — No, not many ; very few. 
 
 1174. Are they mostly single or married men ? — 
 Mostly single men, certainly. 
 
 1175. Are two-thirds of them single men ? — Of 
 those I know, most of them are ; there are three 
 companies coniposed of men from the working men's 
 college, and certainly rather above two-thirds of 
 them are unmarried. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Ctipf. 
 
 J, C. Te.mi>ler. 
 
 Captain John Charles Templer examined. 
 
 1176. {Chair man.') You command the 18th Middle- 
 sex Rifle Volunteer Corps at Harrow ? — Yes. 
 
 1177. Of how many companies does that corps 
 consist ? — Of two comp.anies at present ; I have only 
 just received the aeeeptance of the services of a second 
 company, and perhaps merely for the purposes of this 
 examination it might be as well to consider the 18th 
 as consisting of a single company. 
 
 1178. How many men are there in the company? — 
 
 On the 1st of April there were 100 eff(L'ctives and 
 five officers ; we were 105 in all. 
 
 1179. Is that your strength ut the present time ? — 
 That has been increased, for within the last month 
 we have enrolled some 26 men more. 
 
 1180. How are the funds of your corps raised ? — 
 They are raised partly by the subscriptions of the 
 members, that is each enrolled member pays lialf a 
 guinea a year, each honorary member pays two gui-
 
 TO INQITIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT PRITAIN. 
 
 fil 
 
 iieas. We have besides private donations and other 
 sums by letting off our range to other corps. 
 
 1181. Have 3'ou had any difficulty in obtaining 
 your subscriptions ? — None wbiitevcr. 
 
 1182. Do you sec no chance of tlieir falling off'? — 
 
 3 June 1862. 
 
 No. 
 1183 
 
 No. 
 1184 
 1185, 
 
 Do the officers pay more than the men 
 
 corps 
 
 They all pay alike ? — Yes. 
 Have you a drill sericant attached to your 
 ?— Yes. 
 
 1186. More than one ? — Only one. 
 
 1187. Do you pay him out of your funds more 
 than tlie Government allowance ? — Yes, we do ; we 
 pay him 90«'. a year and his uniform, and that is con- 
 siderably more, nearly as much again as the Govern- 
 ment allowance, but we farm him with the school, 
 that is to say he undertakes also the drill instruction 
 of the public school. We are bound during three 
 terms of the school time to supply him with an assis- 
 tant. The 18th Middlesex, therefore, is exceptional 
 on that ground, as we have a little assistance which 
 is nol common in other corps. 
 
 1188. As your corps is increasing and the funds 
 are in a satisfactory position, you do not apprehend 
 anything which is likely to diminish the efttciency of 
 the corps ? — Nothing. 
 
 1189. {Col. 3IacMtirdo.) Of what classes is your 
 corps composed ? — Before I came here I took occasion 
 to look through the list, and I found that it was com- 
 posed of about 40 tradesmen, and I thiuk we have 
 30 other members with no artizans or labourers 
 among those 00. There r.'as one sculptor, one artist, 
 one general in the army, one member of Parliament, 
 also a captain in the navy, one clergyman, one master 
 in the Exchequer, two justices of the peace, six or 
 seven fellows of the universities of Oxford and Cam- 
 bridge, and the rest were professional men ; there were 
 liesides only I think three artizans and about five 
 farmers ; the whole were men all actively engaged 
 with the exception of two ; we have only two dis- 
 engaged men, I mean persons who follow no profes- 
 sion, and gentlemen in that sense of the word. 
 
 1190. Your corps is upon the whole in good cir- 
 cumstances ? — Yes. 
 
 1191. Have you had opportunities of observing tlie 
 state of the volunteer force generally, and of forming 
 an opinion upon it ? — Yes. 
 
 1192. Will you state to the Commissioners whether 
 you apprehend any falling off" in the force, and the 
 causes of it ? — That is a large question, and I should 
 be glad to divide it, as the reasons that apply are 
 different as to whether the corps is metropolitan or 
 rural. By metropolitan I mean not only London, but 
 Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, and, perhaps, one 
 or more other great centres. With regard to the 
 metropolitan force, from circumstances known, per- 
 haps, to some of the members of the Commission, I 
 have had a great opportunity of knowing them. I 
 think that there is no fear whatever as to them, while 
 as to the country corps there is very great fear that 
 they cannot be kept up, unless some money assistance 
 is rendered by the country. I speak as to this from 
 direct communications from commanding officers and 
 friends from Dorset, Devon, and Somersetshire, and 
 from the returns published from time to time in the 
 Volunteer Service Gnzette from many other parts of 
 Eno'land, which I believe will be found correct. These 
 conununications all go to show that unless some de- 
 cisive assistance be rendered by the country to what 
 may be called the rural corps, they will soon cease to 
 exist as an effective part of the volunteer force. 
 
 1193. Have you any particular views as to the 
 form in which that assistance should be given? — 
 Yes. I may say that having looked at the sub- 
 ject with very great scrutiny and care, and that 
 during the wliole time that we have been formed, 
 more than two years and a lialf, indeed, from De- 
 cember 1859, I have come to the conclusion, slowly 
 perhaps, but with entire conviction, that the volunteer 
 is entitled to a complete indemnity from all expenses ; 
 
 if you arc about to lay down any rule to bo co-exten- Capt. 
 
 sive with England, witliout excepting the great centres, "^^ ^'- Tempter. 
 
 such as Loudon, Manchester, Liverpool, and Glasgow, 
 
 where there is opportunity and means for a good deal 
 
 of aiil iiule[)enih_'nt of tiio Government, that is, if you 
 
 find that you can only legislate by ailopling one general 
 
 rule, 1 thinlc that general rule should be based on 
 
 the principle of complete indemnity, not only from 
 
 battalion expenses and ranges, but with reference 
 
 to the uniform also. In short, 1 would give the 
 
 volunteer everything, and merely call upon him for 
 
 his time. 
 
 1194. {]'iscni(iit. Ilard'uujc.) Have 3'OU ever cal- 
 culated what that would amount to per man? — I 
 should say it would amount at least to two gtiineas 
 per man. 
 
 1195. Would two guineas per man completely in- 
 demnify him for all expenses? — I third; it would, 
 exclusive of the rifle and ammunition, of course. I 
 would not p.ay it to the man, but to the comniiinding 
 officer, to go into the funds of the corps ; he would 
 consult his committee, at least 1 presume he would 
 like to have the moral support of and lean upon his 
 conunittee, although he being chairman would have the 
 greater weight in determining how the money sliould 
 be best expended for the good of the corps. In many 
 cases a great deal of the establishment expenses have 
 been incurred, and consequently you have not in keep- 
 ing up a corps now so large an expenditure as you 
 would have had at first; for example, in my first year 
 the expenses were about 600/., in the last year they 
 fell to 400/., and this year I hope to do it for still less, 
 probably for 200/. 
 
 1196.,; Would two guineas per man cover the ex- 
 penses for clothing, accoutrements, travelling ex- 
 penses on field days, and going to rifle ranges ? — I 
 tliink it would ; I think you would give a complete 
 indemnity by that, though it would no doubt require 
 considerable economy. 
 
 1197. What do you pay for your uniform ? — Five 
 guineas over all ; that includes an undress tunic, but 
 we can do it cheaper now. Upon any renewal of the 
 uniform it would cost not more than 3/. to 4/., or say 
 under 4/. 
 
 1198. {Col. M/tcMurclo.) You can do it cheaper in 
 consequence of the Government supplying you with 
 cloth under cost price ? — There is some doubt about 
 that, whether it is a saving or not ; as far as it has 
 gone it appears that there would be a saving. 
 
 1199. {Viscoviit Hardinge.) You would put down 
 3/. 10s. for the clothing without accoutrements ? — ■ 
 No ; with accoutrements. 
 
 1200. At what amount do you put them ? — Tho 
 cross belt and waist belt only cost \6s., and the orna- 
 ments would make it a little more ; they would bo 
 about OS. more. 
 
 1201. Do you see any reason why the cost of the 
 uniform in any corps should exceed 3/. 10.?. ?. — Cer- 
 taitdy not ; we paid five guineas, but undoubtedly the 
 expenses now as compared with the expenses when 
 we formed may be considerably reduced. 
 
 1202. Do you see any reason why the uniform, 
 generally speaking, should cost more than that .amount, 
 taking into consideration the assistance which the 
 Government give you now in clothing ? — No, I do 
 not. 
 
 1203. {Liciit.-Col. Barttelot.) Do you belong to 
 an administrative battalion ? — No. 
 
 1204. (Lord Elrlio.) Have you had considerable 
 correspondcnco witli the volunteers throughout the 
 countrj' ? — Yes, very considerable. 
 
 1205. The result of that, as I gathered it from 
 what you have stated, is an impression on your jjart 
 and on the part of your friends that further assistance 
 is required in some shape to maintain the force in its 
 present strengtli ? — Decidedly. 
 
 1206. Has that correspondence with the volunteers 
 tliruughoul tli<! country at all touched upon the ques- 
 tion of uniform ? — With many of them, certainly. 
 
 1207. From your knowledge of the force generally 
 do you believe that any very large portion of the 
 
 I 3
 
 65 
 
 JIINUtjiS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 June 1SG2. 
 
 Capt. force has been supplied with uniforms from other 
 /. C. Tcmpkr. ^^^^^ ^Yicit own individual funds ? — You mean of 
 course excepting the honorary members ? 
 
 1208. Yes ? — Certainly ; almost all. 
 
 1 209. A great part of the corps is at present clothed 
 not at the expense of tlie individuals themselves, 
 but from extraneous sources ? — Quite so, that is by 
 Subscriptions and extraneous aids. 
 
 1210. Wliat proportion of the whole force should 
 you think have been so supplied with uniforms, as- 
 suming it to be ] 50,000 ? — I cannot say ; I should 
 think in round numbers two-thirds of the whole 
 force. 
 
 1211. Your calculation is that two-thirds of the 
 whole force have been supplied with uniforms from 
 extraneous sources, and that they have not been pro- 
 vided at their own expense ? — I should think so, 
 except the metropolis ; I think the fair way would be 
 to except the great centres. 
 
 1212. {Viscount Hardinge.) On what data do you 
 found that answer, that two-thirds of the whole force 
 have been so clothed, merely from hearsay ? — No ; it 
 is from correspondence ; but it is probably a very 
 rough guess, I could not test it numerically. 
 
 1213. In ths county of Dorset the corps are pro- 
 bably, financially speaking, worse off than in many 
 other counties ? — I think that they are not worse off 
 than in Somersetshire, or indeed than in any other 
 purely rural districts. 
 
 1214. Ai-e they well supported by honorary mem- 
 bers and gentlemen in the neighbourhood ? — Not 
 very well. 
 
 1215. {Lord Overstone.) You have stated that in 
 your opinion the volunteer is entitled to a complete 
 indemnity, in what sense do you use the word "enti- 
 tled ?" — I imply that I think he gives a very large 
 amount in giving his time, particularly the lower class 
 of volunteers, the working men and tradesmen, wlio 
 have to maintain themselves and families by their 
 daily labour. 
 
 1216. You mean by entitled, I presume, that it 
 would be reasonable and prudent to base any arrange- 
 ment for work upon that principle ? — Quite so. 
 
 1217. Of course you are aware that there are three 
 principles on which a military force can be maintained ; 
 one, that of the regular army in which the whole 
 expense is defrayed by the Government, the other the 
 opposite extreme, that in which the parties volun- 
 teering take upon themselves to find the means of 
 defraying the whole expense, and the third and inter- 
 mediate course is where the volunteers contribute 
 their personal service, tlieir time and labour, to be 
 supported entirely in all other expenditure ; upon 
 which of those principles do you think that the de- 
 fensive force of this country ought to be based ? — I 
 should say on the third. The defensive force need 
 not, and perhaps ought not, to be exclusively based 
 upon the volunteer principle. The regular army 
 should bear its share ; but I have no hesitation in 
 saving that the third is the proper principle, as applied 
 to the volunteers, upon which the defensive force of 
 the country should be based. 
 
 1218. Would you carry the volunteer principle to 
 the extent of limiting the contributions of tlie parties 
 to their personal services, and obtaining the pecuniary 
 means from other sources, such as public subscriptions 
 or Government aid ? — I would, as applied to the whole 
 force ; it is a question undoubtedly of principle ; but 
 the principle of aid once admitted, the amount is but 
 a question of degree. When once you say that you 
 will give some support, there is no difference in the 
 principle whether that support is partial or entire; 
 supposing that tv.'o guineas a man would be sufficient, 
 it is by no means an unreasonable sum to pay per 
 year for an effective soldier, and I am supported in 
 that view by the present statute law. By the 36th 
 section of the Volunteer Act the Commissioners will 
 find that our fathers took this very view of the sub- 
 ject. I believe that even now by tlie law we can go 
 and claim, eve7i for the purposes of milHary instruc- 
 tion, and not only in the event of a threatened in- 
 
 vasion, from the paymaster wherever he exists some- 
 thing like \l. a man, and two guineas for the com- 
 manding ofHcer. 
 
 1219. What do you refer to when you say that our 
 fathers took this view ? — It was under tliis Act that 
 the volunteer force was raised in 1803 ; and in the 
 36th section will be found these words, " Be it 
 ■' further enacted, that when any corps of volunteers 
 " shall have assembled to do military duty upon any 
 " appearance of invasion, or /or the purpose of im- 
 " proving themselves in military exercise, it shall be 
 " lawful for the Commissioners of His Majesty's 
 " Treasury to direct that any sum not exceeding one 
 " guinea for every volunteer who shall so assemble, 
 " shall be paid to the captain or other commanding 
 " officer of the said corps, and the sum shall be 
 " laid out in providing necessaries for each such 
 " volunteer," and then, as if tliey were almost afraid 
 of its detracting from the proper character of the 
 volunteers, it goes on to say, "Provided always, that 
 " nothing herein contained shall extend to authorize 
 " the captain to draw for any such sum for the use of 
 " persons serving in the said corps who shall not 
 " desire to be entitled thereto," so also you might limit 
 it to such of the corps as might wish to receive it ; 
 there might be many volunteers, the Inns of Courts 
 for instance would be an excellent example in which 
 they would not ask for it ; but supposing it were 
 asked for, would you let the defence of the country 
 be prejudiced by the loss of a valuable body of men, 
 simply because they were not as wealthy as some of 
 the others might be ? 
 
 1220. Is it your opinion that in organizing the 
 present volunteer movement it would be expedient 
 to draw into the movement every person willing to 
 contribute his physical services, finding the necessary 
 money from other sources than his own means ? — 
 No ; the great limit, I think, would be laid down 
 from the different positions of men themselves ; you 
 could not draw them all in. There would be no need 
 to seek the lowest stratum of society which could 
 supply the militia: or the regular army with men. 
 
 1221. If you abandoned that limitation which 
 arises from throwing upon parties the necessary ex- 
 penditure, what is the next line upon which you 
 would rest for putting a limitation to the extent of 
 tlie movement ? — I think that the principle would be 
 fairly met by keeping the broad line of demarcation 
 between the men who received payment, and those 
 who did not ; in this case the man receives nothing ; 
 it does not go to him, it is spent for him, he never 
 touches it ; he gives himself, that is all he brings ; and 
 his time is a very solid subscription. It is iu itself a 
 broad line of demarcation ; the soldier is paid, and the 
 militia man is paid, he gets actually money. 
 
 1222. I understood you to say that you would not 
 carry the movement so far as to include every person 
 who was willing to give his personal services and his 
 time, liut you would restrict it in some way or other ? 
 — I think it is restricted by the different positions of 
 men ; there is a stratum of society in London, for 
 example, that never could give their time to it. 
 
 1223. Do you vliink that tlie sacrifice of time is 
 sufficient without a pecuniary sacrifice? — Yes, de- 
 cidedly. 
 
 1224. If all the expense was defrayed out of the 
 public purse would you then mal<e an}' greater demand 
 on a man's time than is at present made ? — No ; on 
 the contrary, it lias occurred very strongly to me tliat 
 it should be reduced. I think that directly a volun- 
 teer has shown himself to be a thoroughly efficient 
 memlier of his corps by either passing through an 
 examination or undergoing such test, or obtaining 
 such certificate as might be deemed necessary to esta- 
 blish the fact of his being thoroughly efficient, the 
 statutable number of drills might be yerj fairly re- 
 laxed ; and I should strongly recommend, although 
 filings may not be quite ripe for it yet, but next year, 
 that as soon as a man has been three jears in the 
 force, and is clearly a good effective man, that ten 
 compulsory drills should be sufficient to keep him on
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLITNTEER FORCE IN GB^BAT. BRITAIN. 
 
 C3 
 
 the effective list. I think that the present rule should 
 be relaxed, because I think it would bo hard lo lose 
 men whom we know to be tliorougldy cfrcctivo, but 
 who ai'e unable to go through tlio statutory num- 
 ber of 24 drills. I think it is beginning to bo 
 felt very generally, and possibly it will be more so. 
 An example may be gathered from the Swiss. I 
 believe the Swiss plan of defence is to have a third 
 reserve, and that third reserve consists wholly of men 
 who are masters of their drill but past the highest 
 activity of youth ; they are very valuable men for 
 the defence of the country and they are only required 
 to be out for two days in the year. 
 
 1225. (Viscount Hardinr/e.) Do not you think 
 that thoroughly efficient men take great pride in 
 punctual attendance, and actually attend more than 
 the 24 drills ? — Yes ; you never have to press them 
 if they can come at all, but why have a self-imposed 
 disability that can only work to the detriment of the 
 force ? The good man is sure to come if he can ; why 
 strike him off if he cannot ? He is equally good if he 
 keeps 10 or 20 drills. 
 
 1226. The only question would be whether the 
 Government would consent to dispense with what 
 might in their opinion tend to diminish the efficiency 
 of tlie corps ? — They ought to do what is best for 
 the country and for the whole force. It ought not to 
 be a question of bargain at all. 
 
 1227. (Lord Oversione.) Do' you not think that 
 in proportion as the Government is called upon to 
 bear the expense of the movement the Government 
 would be entitled and would be bound to exercise a 
 corresponding degree of interference in regulating 
 that movement for the purpose of securing its effi- 
 ciency ? — Not more than at present, and I think that 
 the principles of Government interference, although 
 it is a very delicate question, were admirably laid 
 down by Lord de Grey nearly twelve months ago, at a 
 meeting at which Lord Elcho was present, upon 
 which occasion an address was presented to Lord do 
 Grey upon his retiring from office ; and he laid down 
 in a very few sentences, but as clearly as possible, 
 the principle upon which the War Office authority 
 was to be exercised. His words were : — " The great 
 " principle which has directed all the dealings of the 
 " Government with the volunteers has been, that, while 
 " it was our duty to maintain and enforce adherence 
 "' to certain broad rulesof order and discipline, without 
 "which no body partaking of a military character 
 " could exist for any useful purpose ; it was essential 
 " to the success of a movement of this kind, popular 
 " in its nature, as springing from the spontaneous 
 " patriotism of the nation, that it should be permitted, 
 " within the limits of those necessary rules, to develop 
 " itself in the freest and most unfettered manner. 
 " Heartily concurring in these principles, I en- 
 " deavoured to apply them in the daily conduct of the 
 " business of my office, and while I always maintained 
 " the just and proper authority of the Secretary of 
 " State, I trust that I never forgot that I had to deal 
 " with a body of volunteers who were freely sacrificing 
 " their time, their money, and their personal conve- 
 " nience in the service of their sovereign and their 
 " country, and who were on every ground entitled to 
 " receive the utmost consideration at the hands of 
 " the Government." 
 
 1228. Were those principles so laid down by Lord 
 de Grey bearing in mind that the Government would 
 be called upon to bear a large share of the expense of 
 the movement ? — I conclude that his Lordship had the 
 whole subject before him, for even then the expense 
 was a large question ; I mean that the question was 
 well afloat as to what aid should be given. 
 
 1229. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Was that touched 
 upon in his reply ? — Not expressly, but we were 
 assisted with the rifle and with ammunition ; I am not 
 sure but that we had some other assistance also at 
 that time. 
 
 1230. The adjutants ?— Yes, and the adjutants. 
 I think that his Lordship must have considered the 
 expenses defrayed by the Government, for what he 
 
 said recommends itself at once to the common sense, 
 unless a light hand is kept on the force it will be 
 dissolved ; like a snow wreatli we shall melt away. 
 
 12.'jI. (iMid Overstone.) Tiiat is a consideration 
 that may press in eitlier direction. It may be true 
 that unless a very light hand is kept on the force 
 the pressure of Government authority might squeeze 
 up tlie whole movement, but is not that rather 
 an argument against extensive pecuniary interfer- 
 ence by the Government on the principle that with 
 pecuniary interference there must go hand in hand 
 administrative interference ? — In my view of the 
 question, I should say that the volunteer movement 
 rests entirely upon the patriotism of the country, and 
 in the case of men who bring their willing and 
 zealous services for the defence of the country, men 
 many of them engaged in providing the means of 
 subsistence for themselves and families, I think it is 
 very hard to call upon them to be out of pocket plus 
 their services, remembering the very moderate limit 
 at which that amount of expense is fixed. 
 
 1232. (Viscount Hardinge.) If the Government 
 gave to the volunteer force further aid, might they 
 not say we must have a f/uid pro quo, and have at 
 all events the same efficiency that we have now ? — 
 If you look at it as a mere question of bargain, it 
 would be so, but the efficiency is a matter of fact to 
 be marked b}' certain tests ; the man certainly ought 
 to be effective before his corps receives the benefit of 
 the aid, and the corps should lose it on his ceasing to 
 be effective. 
 
 1233. I suppose you will admit that there is a cer- 
 tain standard of efficiency at which, generally speak- 
 ing, the volunteer corps have arrived ? — Yes. 
 
 1234. And it is desirable that that should not be 
 diminished ? — Certainly ; you see that they have to 
 learn it first, and assuming that they have reached a 
 certain state of efficiency the question is whether 
 they may not be maintained in that with less com- 
 pulsory attendance than now. 
 
 1235. (Lord Elcho.') You would admit, I sup- 
 pose, that the Government, whether they gave much 
 or little, but especially if they gave much, would have 
 a right to expect that the volunteer force was well 
 disciplined and thoroughly efficient ? — Clearly so. 
 
 1236. And that whatever was necessary to secure 
 that efficiency should be fixed, whether the drills 
 were more or fewer than the statutory number ? — 
 Yes, and it would be a great thing if you fixed it, 
 not perhaps as absolutely final, but final with re- 
 gard to the present generation ; it would be a great 
 thing if we could get such an amount of aid on the 
 one hand and such an amount of drill on the other as 
 would satisfy our generation. I am certain that 
 the continued agitation is a bad thing for the force. 
 It is better to have it settled at once, then we 
 shall know what we are about ; wo ought not to be 
 perpetually, like Oliver Twists, asking for more. 
 
 1237. (Chairman.) With regard to your own 
 corps there is no desire for any fresh assistance ? — 
 Certainly not, while our present extraneous assist- 
 ance lasts ; but we stand very exceptionally, we get 
 a great deal of assistance ; our subscription is only 
 half a guinea from our effectives, that is 50 guineas 
 a year about, and our expenditure in the last two 
 years has Tjeen 1,000Z. 
 
 1238. (Lord Elcho.) Is your corps composed much 
 of the artizan class ? — No ; it is composed of the 
 tradesmen class ; wo have only three artizans. 
 
 1239. (Col. MacMurdo.) You are probably aware 
 that at inspections generally not more than one half 
 of the members are present ? — Yes. 
 
 1240. Do you think that if the Government clothed 
 as well as armed the force they would be entitled to 
 insist upon the clothed men being seen at least once 
 a year by the inspector ? — Yes, clearly so ; it would 
 be a very fair and proper arrangement that the men 
 should be there ; there is no statutable power at pre- 
 sent to enforce the attendance at inspection, and we 
 had some little difficulty last year upon that very 
 point, — it occurred in many instances that a man came 
 
 1 4 
 
 Capt. 
 J. C. Trmpler. 
 
 .1 June 1862.
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 3 Junel8G2. 
 
 Capt. and said, " I have attended 24 drills, and you cannot 
 
 C. Tempkr. <' strike me ofF." In strictness I believe ho was right ; 
 ho said, " I am good and efficient for this year ;" but, 
 however that may be, it would be quite a fair thing 
 to make it compulsory in future. I am sure the 
 men would think so themselves, and tliey would look 
 forward to the inspection with pleasure. 
 
 1241. You think it is quite necessary that the 
 Government should be entitled to see the whole of 
 the men in the corps, except those who were absent 
 with the leave of their commanding officers on the day 
 of inspection ? — Yes, it would be a capital guard 
 against shams. 
 
 1242. {Sir A. CumpbeU.) Do you consider that 
 efficiency in the use of the rifle is an essential part of 
 the efficiency of a corps ? — Certainly, I do. 
 
 1243. You have suggested that the men might 
 attend 10 drills ; would you add to that any rifle 
 practice, or would you include in those some rifle 
 practice ? — I would add the rifle practice to the 10 
 drills — the 10 should not include the practice with 
 the rifle — he should shoot in his classes ; possibly the 
 third class would be sufficient, but he ought to shoot 
 the shoulder ranges at the least. 
 
 1244. Still you would require something ? — Yes. 
 1243. {Lord Oversfoiie.) Might C4overnmcnt aid 
 
 be extended on any principle having reference, for 
 instance, to tlie number of attendances at drill, or to 
 efficiency in drill, or in the use of the musket ? — I 
 think the best principle would be that a man was 
 really eflective, and that in the opinion of his com- 
 manding officer he was fairly in the actually effijctive 
 list. 
 
 1246. {Lord Elcho.) Have you ever considered 
 whether it would be an inducement to men to attend 
 drills and to remain in the corps if they were allowed 
 to wear badges distinguishing the effectives from the 
 non-effectives, like the good conduct stripes in the 
 army ? — I do not think that would worlc well. 
 
 1247. The marksman's badge is much sought after ? 
 — Yes, it is very much, but a badge for drill would 
 introduce a very uncertain element ; it is such a 
 question of degree, smart men or not smart men. 
 
 1248. Would you insist upon the men acquiring a 
 knowledge of rifle shooting ? — I would not require 
 
 too high a proficiency ; if a man fired his third class, 
 I think that that should be enough ; we have very 
 good drills who are not very good shots, and rice 
 versa, both being attentive men. 
 
 1249. But you would require a man to go through 
 that class ? — -Yes, you ought not to have any man in 
 the regiment who cannot shoot. 
 
 1250. ( Chairman.) Have you anyfurther suggestion 
 to make ? — There is one point with regard to the 
 metropolitan corps ; we have very great difficulty in 
 getting ranges, the present statutes do not meet the 
 difficulty ; perhaps they may be regarded as merely 
 the first steps, but undoubtedly there ought to be some 
 power of dealing compulsorily with Inndowners for 
 ranges, somewhat similar to the powers which are 
 granted in railway Acts. 
 
 1251. Was not it made a subject of inquiry i)revious 
 to the organization of any rifle corps whether they 
 had a range within a certain distance ? — Not a range, 
 but the promise of a range, and the promise i'ell 
 through in many instances. I know of an instance 
 in ray own neighbourhood now where the men have 
 about six or eight miles to go to shoot, and it is very 
 hard upon them. It is at Stanmore, where through 
 the groundless opposition of a single landowner, not 
 the proprietor, an excellent range of 1,000 yards and 
 upwards has been lost to the iStanmore corps. A com- 
 pulsory power would'prevent all that kind of opposi- 
 tion ; itneed very rarely be resorted to, as the mere 
 power would facilitate mutual arrangements. It is very 
 desirable that the Commission should give expression 
 to this view, as there is not a dearth only, but, I may 
 say, a fixmine of ranges. It really is a very important 
 point, and I think it would be well accepted ; it 
 might be guarded in every way, so that no laud should 
 be taken except under the sanction of some Secretary 
 of State's warrant ; if we had some power of that kind 
 we might go and deal with the landowners, and it 
 would give a great impulse to the movement. I had 
 a difficult and protracted negotiation at H.arrow on 
 the subject, which eventually was successful, and we 
 have now an excellent range of 1,000 j'ards, which 
 the public school has also the advantage of. Without 
 it I doubt if the corps would long be held together. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Adjourned to Friday next at half-past 12 o'clock, 
 
 Friday, 6th June 1862. 
 
 PRESENT ; 
 
 Viscount 
 HiineJagh. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 
 Viscount Hardinge. 
 
 Lord Overstone. 
 
 Lord Elcho. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. A. Wetherall. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel jNIacMurdo. 
 Major Hakcourt. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Ch.ur. 
 Viscount Ranelagh examined. 
 
 1252. {Chairman.) I believe you command the 
 South Middlesex Rifle Volunteers ? — I do. 
 
 1253. Consisting of 16 companies ? — Nomiually of 
 16 companies. 
 
 1254. How many men have you on the muster 
 roll ?— Between 1,200 and 1,300. 
 
 1255. {ViscoHut Hardinye.) Do you mean 1,200 
 effectives ? — Yes ; attested men. Non-effectives .are 
 not sworn in. 
 
 1256. {Chairman.) I believe you are provided with 
 rifle grounds and sheds, and everything necessary ? — 
 Yes ; I would not undertake the command of the 
 regiment until I had got all that ; that is my idea of 
 making the volunteer movement pennaucnr. 
 
 1257. Out of what funds were those expenses 
 
 defrayed ; the cost of the rifle sheds, and so forth ? — 
 Out of donations and annual subscriptions. 
 
 1258. Do your officers and men contribute the 
 same amount per annum ? — They contribute equally 
 one guinea. 
 
 1259. Do you find that a subscription of one guinea 
 a year covers all the ordinary expenses of the corps V — 
 If we were out of debt it would. I think that I do 
 not press the neighbourhood so much as I might ; the 
 donations are unusually small for so large and rich a 
 neighbourhood. 
 
 1 260. Is the interest of the money which you have 
 liovrowed for the erection of those tniildings paid out 
 of the suV)Scriptions ? — We pay no interest, but have
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 G5 
 
 gone into debt on my own and Captain Appleyard's 
 responsibility. 
 
 1261. Do your men elotlio Ihemsehes, or are tliey 
 assisted in providing their uniforms? — They clotho 
 themselves. 
 
 1262. When that clothing requires renewal, do you 
 think they will be able to meet Ihe expense ? — They 
 could ; but the question is, whether some of the men 
 may not be tired of it. I have no reason for saying 
 that they will not do it. 
 
 1263. They all clothed themselves in the first 
 instance, and they have shown no lack of zeal since ; 
 they are as earnest as they ever were ? — Yes. 
 
 1264. Do you pay the adjutant and the drill in- 
 structor anythinij; beyond the Government allowance ? 
 — To our serjcant-major we make up, I think, lOx. a 
 week more, as we found that we could not get a really 
 efScient man for the Government allowance. 
 
 1265. Is your band paid for separately? — Our 
 band is the subject of great annoyance ; it is a volun- 
 teer band, but it is paid for out of the funds of the 
 corps and some subscriptions. I cannot state what I 
 pay for that band, but it is not so expensive as most 
 of the volunteer bands. 
 
 1266. How often do you have your battalion drills; 
 once a month ? — Every Saturday, and in the winter 
 every Thursday also. We get a great many men, good 
 men, who come regularly, but many come only on 
 great occasions ; to counteract this, many have been 
 very good attendants at the company drills during the 
 winter; the fact is, my particular regiment owes its 
 discipline to the good attendance at companj' drills 
 during the winter. Mj battalion drill is the worst 
 attended. 
 
 1267. Do you think that the brigade and divisional 
 meetings are essential to the maintenance of the 
 spirit and efficiency of your corps ? — Yes ; if it had 
 not been for such reviews as Chiselhurst, Brighton, 
 &c., &c., according to my opinion, the volunteers 
 would hardly now exist in London ; by this time, I 
 think, they would have been heartily tired of it. 
 
 1268. Do you insist upon every man passing 
 through a certain number of company drills before 
 he takes part in brigade or divisional operations ? — 
 Y'^ou mean before taking part in battalion drill ; brigade 
 and divisional movements are easy in comparison. At 
 our inspection last year I did not forbid any men to 
 come into the ranks, and yet I think that we went 
 through the book, minus four manccuvres, and how 
 we did it I leave Colonel MacMurdo to say. 
 
 1269. Is it your opinion that the volunteer force 
 can be maintained in its present eificient state without 
 aid from the Government or from the public ? — That 
 is a great question. In the first place I may not agree 
 with you as to what constitutes a volunteer force. 
 I have my views about that ; I think that there are 
 many men in the volunteers who have no business to 
 be tliere, that their proper place is either in the line, 
 or in the militia. I think that there are many men 
 who have got their uniforms as volunteers, who have 
 no business with them, they have got them by means 
 of the donations of the inhabitants of different dis- 
 tricts ; those donations have been, according to my 
 idea, wrongly applied in furnishing uniforms ; when 
 they are worn out that district or the gentry may not 
 like to supply them again, and I say that those are not 
 the men that ought to be in the volunteer force. 
 
 1270. Your opinion is that the men who ought to 
 constitute the volunteer force are men above the class 
 to which you have referred, and able to supply them- 
 selves with uniforms ? — Unquestionably. 
 
 1271. I presume that you have endeavoured to 
 recruit in that direction ? — Yes. 
 
 1272. {Viscount Hardhujr.) You allude specially 
 to working men, do you not ? — You may put any 
 interpretation you like upon what I have said. I 
 allude to men who cannot pay for their own uniforms. 
 
 1273. (Chairmnn.) You think that men who cannot 
 pay for their own uniforms ought not to be admitted 
 into the force ? — Yes. 
 
 1274. Do you think that you could secure a 
 
 sufficient number of men of an independent class 
 
 without the addition of the others ? Yes. If you 
 
 are in earnest in this country in telling every man 
 that he must provide for tlie defence of the country, 
 and subscribe his quota, I think tliat I can show you 
 how you can increase the volunteer force very con- 
 siderably. 
 
 127o. Will you favour the Commission with your 
 views upon that point ?— In the first place, looking 
 at the military position of this country, coui|)aied 
 with what it was 10 years ago, and admitting the 
 fact, as wo ought, that we might be invaded, I tliink 
 Ihe first duty is to enforce the ballot. I think tliat you 
 ought to have an organized system of militia by which, 
 at any momenf, you could call out, if necessary, and 
 be able to put your hand upon 400,()()0 or 500,000 
 men ; that does not make it necessary that you should 
 call tlieni out at the present time or have out more 
 than the 50,000 or 80,000 which you have under the 
 in-eseiit system ; but it .should be held over the lieads 
 of the 500,000 that they are liable to be called upon 
 at any time, and I think that by that means you 
 would draw gentlemen into the volunteers who would 
 not like the militia, and so keep up a respectable class 
 of volunteers. 
 
 1276. You think that you would then be able to 
 secure the efficiency of the volunteers, because you 
 would not allow any man to claim exemption from 
 the ballot, unless he was thorougiily efficient ? — I 
 think it would draw all the respectable class into the 
 volunteers instead of going into the militia, while a 
 man who could not afford to pjiy for his uniform 
 would be obliged to go into the militia, and that would 
 be his proper place. 
 
 1277. Do you think it would be advantageous to 
 reduce the number of battalions that are formed in 
 tlie neighbourhood of London ? — I should say .so 
 decidedly ; a great many evils spring from the present 
 system ; there is a Foresters' corps, and an Odd 
 Fellows' corps, and other odd and absurd corps ; Ijut 
 the principle of their constitution in point of fact 
 is to induce a good many men to leave other regi- 
 ments to go into something that is new ; you do not 
 add to the strength of the volunteer force by them. 
 Tiiere is another great evil in these small corps ; 
 when the men come to drill and they find only 14 
 or 15 present, they get sick of it, and give it up ; 
 they get no exercise and no drill, and so they leave ; 
 but when you are in large numbers, it is just the 
 other way, the men meet their comrades and they get 
 a good drill, and it works well. 
 
 1278. You are of opinion that if these small corps 
 could be discontinued, the larger corps would become 
 fuller ?— Yes. 
 
 1279. Are the men in your Lordship's corps re- 
 cruited in any particular district, or all over London? 
 — Others have broken this arrangement with the 
 apparent sanction of the lord lieutenant ; for instance, I 
 have got a company out of this office, and I have a 
 company of lawyers ; this may arise from the circum- 
 stance that I have such first rate head quarters, or 
 they would not have joined me. 
 
 1280. (Lord Ovcistnne.) Do I correctly understand 
 your Lordship's opinion to be, that you think the 
 present volunteer force is based upcm an erroneous 
 principle, and that it ought really to be treated as 
 part of a general system of organizing the wiiole 
 country for defensive purposes ; the militia force 
 lieing a body into which those who cannot afford to 
 pay for their own arms and accoutrements should be 
 enlisted, and the volunteer force to act as a comple- 
 ment to the militia, and receiving those only who can 
 afford to pay their expenses ? — Yes ; that is my firm 
 conviction, with this addition, that the volunteers 
 should be an entindy distinct forge from the army 
 and from the militia. 
 
 1281. Distinct in what sense of the word ? — I think 
 that it should have a separate organization to be 
 commanded, officered, and organized entirely on a 
 system of its own. 
 
 12S2. Do you think that the voluuteer force in its 
 
 V'lsrmml 
 HaneUiijIi 
 
 (, .lune 1862.
 
 .66 
 
 MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Vhcoujit 
 RuiteliKjh. 
 
 6 June 1 S62. 
 
 present condition can be permanently maintained ? — 
 I do. 
 
 1283. Do you think that any measures of impor- 
 tance are requisite for tlie purpose of givin2; greater 
 certainty to its permanent maintenance ?— Yes, I do. 
 
 1284. What do you think those measures should be? 
 — I suppose that part of that question means, how cau 
 you popularize it, or make it more able to support 
 itself? 
 
 1285. Looking at the present state of the volunteer 
 force, first, as to its organization and discipline, do 
 you thinlc that any essential changes in its organiza- 
 tion and discipline are necessary for the purpose of 
 maintaining its efficiency? — If you will be • kind 
 enough to separate the questions, and ask me first 
 upon discipline, I will give an answer. 
 
 1286. Then do you think that any essential change 
 in the discipline is necessary for the purpose of 
 securing the permanent efiiciency of the volunteer 
 force ? — I think that at the present time the volun- 
 teers, as a body, are efficient ; in every county, how- 
 ever, there ought to be a staff". I think in this 
 metropolis, if the force were divided into district 
 brigades and divisions, we should he more efficient ; 
 we ought to be able to march into Hyde Park under 
 our own staff with 1 5,000 or 20,000 men at a few hours 
 notice, and manoeuvre with credit to ourselves ; but as 
 things are, I think that in a case of war there would 
 be the utmost confusion — the most ridiculous con- 
 fusion with no organization of any kind that I can 
 see. I can see no organization and no staiF formed, 
 and I therefore think that we ought to be in such a 
 state that 150,000 men might be transported to any 
 spot under an efficient staff. 
 
 1287. Is your Lordship prepared to state to this 
 Commission specifically any important changes in the 
 present discipline of the force which you think 
 essential to maintain its efficiency ? — Speaking for my 
 own regiment, I should say, if you want to make us 
 more efficient, and to keep up our numbers, you would 
 pay for our head quarters. 
 
 1288. But my question referred to the discipline ? 
 — I really do not quite catch the question. 
 
 1289. I understood you to state that you thought 
 there were important changes which might be 
 effected, first in the discipline, and secondly in the 
 organization of the volunteer force ? — Organization, 
 not discipline. I really cannot suggest anything as 
 to discipline ; as far as the discipline of the force hns 
 gone, I think it is one of the most marvellous things 
 that I have ever witnessed ; it is the most remarkable 
 feature in the annals of this country, and I cannot 
 offer any suggestion upon that point. 
 
 1290. Your Lordship does not suggest any im- 
 portant change as to discipline ? — I do not, with the 
 exception of the want of a good volunteer staff. 
 
 1291. ( Viscount Hardinrie.) Do you think it desir- 
 able as regards the discipline of the force that any 
 general set of rules should be framed such as would 
 meet the requirements of each corps. You are aware 
 that there was a committee of which you were presi- 
 dent, which committee framed a set of rules that were 
 supposed to be model rules, and a previous witness 
 has stated that those rules were framed when it was 
 thought that these corps partook more of the cha- 
 racter of rifle clubs than military corps. Do you 
 think that the Government could frame any general 
 set of rules that would be applicable to all the volun- 
 teer corps ? — I must take the liberty of contradicting 
 the gentleman who said that those rules were drawn 
 up more as rules for rifle clubs. I know that my 
 intention, and that of the majority of the committee 
 concerned in drawing up those rules, was not to have 
 anything to do with clubs ; everything was meant to 
 be in the hands of the commanding officer. 
 
 1292. Then in fact you would not recommend any 
 alteration in the present system with regard to those 
 rules ? — No, I think not. 
 
 1293. (Major- Gen. Eyre.) You would have no 
 . fancy rules ? — No. 
 
 1294. {Lord Over stone,') Passing to the subject of 
 
 organization, are you prepared to suggest to this 
 Commission any important changes in the organiza- 
 tion of the volunteer force with a view to maintain 
 its permanent efficiency ? — Yes, I am quite prepared. 
 I should recommend that in every county there 
 should be a volunteer staff. I should not wish to 
 break through any of our national ideas as to the 
 power of lord-lieutenants arising from a system of 
 national habits and institutions ; I would still leave 
 tlie lord-lieutenant to be the nominal head of that 
 staff, as the Queen is the head of the army. I 
 would have this staff composed of retired military 
 men, the senior colonels of regiments. I would 
 have a thoroughly well digested and organized staff, 
 and that staff should be prepared to enter into every- 
 thing connected with the volunteer movement, and 
 be one that would work in time of peace as well as in 
 war time. I should carry out the same principle in 
 towns. I can give you all this in detail if you 
 please, but the principle is to have in every county a 
 staff. I would not have a staff such as you liave got in 
 the militia, consisting of fine gentlemen in cocked hats, 
 but I would make it a really hona fide military staff, 
 and I dare say you would find men glad enough to 
 serve on such a staff, and be glad to give their ser- 
 vices to the force. I would also have " intendants " 
 or civil staff, whose dutj' resembles that of deputy- 
 lieutenant ; I would make it a really bona fide statt", 
 and let the senior colonel, if he were a man of ability, 
 have the command, but that would depend upon 
 circumstances. But I repeat, let every county have 
 its volunteer staff. 
 
 1295. (Colo7iel 3IacMurdo.). Do you mean a paid 
 staff ? — Certainly not. Nothing connected with the 
 volunteers ought to be paid for, unless it is the head- 
 quarters, and ranges for metropolitan corps. We are 
 looking now for ecouomj', and I believe firmly that if 
 this volunteer movement is carried out, and the ballot 
 enforced, you will have a very large body of men who 
 will come forward, and constitute a nucleus in case of 
 emergency. The great volunteer principle is that 
 nobody should be paid. 
 
 1296. (3IaJor-Gcn. Eyre.) Do you object to the 
 paid Serjeants that you have now ? — No ; but that is 
 a thing that already exists. I do not think that you 
 can get men to do that work unless they are paid. 
 
 1297. But still you say that a great many must bo 
 paid for, who are they ' — The adjutant must be paid 
 for, the musketry instructor must be paid for, .and the 
 drill Serjeant must be paid in most instances. 
 
 1298. {Lieut.- Col. Barttelot.) With the exception 
 of what you receive now from the Government in the 
 shape of an adjutant and drill Serjeant, you do not 
 recommend that the Government should do anything 
 further ? — I have not said that. 
 
 1299. {Earl of Ducie.) Are you of opinion that 
 competent gentlemen could be found in all the counties 
 to fill these staft' appointments to which you have 
 referred ? — Yes ; there are men who have served 
 years in the army, and would like the work, and 
 become the best staff in the world. 
 
 1300. But do you think that they are to be found 
 in sufficient numbers in every county in England ? — 
 Undoubtedly they are, and not only so, but if you 
 give the volunteers five years, in five years they will 
 make a much better staff of officers than you have in 
 the army, because the one would do it con amnre, and 
 the other would do it as a duty. I cannot speak in 
 too strong terms of volunteer intelligence. 
 
 1301. XSir A. Cnjiipbcll.) Do you think that these 
 gentlemen would be willing to serve without remune- 
 ration ? — I think so ; you would give them rank and 
 position. You find the deputy lieutenant serving 
 without remuneration ; you find me serving without 
 remuneration, and very hard work it is. 
 
 1302. {Earl of Ducie.) Deputy-lieutenants have 
 not, I think, very onerous duties to perform ? — They 
 are supi)osed to be so ; the staff" duty would not be a 
 very onerous duty to perform. 
 
 1 303. But these staff officers would be full of em-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THK CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FOKCE IN (UlEAT BRITAIN. 
 
 67 
 
 ployment on all occasions of county reviews and field- 
 days ? — Yes. 
 
 1304. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) How would the staff 
 that you propose be constituted ? — Take the case of 
 Colonel IJarttelot, who is a retired officer. Sup- 
 pose him not to have ii volunteer regiment, and he 
 was in a county, and I was lord-lieutenant, I should 
 ask him to come, and other men who had been in the 
 army. 
 
 1305. But what would the staff appointments be ? 
 — You know as well as I do what the etat-major is 
 in the French army ; you may call tjicse appointments 
 what you please — quartermaster-general, adjutant- 
 general, deputy ([uartermaster-gencral, and deputy 
 adjutant-general ; but the statl" would be the same in 
 «very county. I would have an etat-major, M'hich 
 you never have had iu this country yet, an efficient 
 and zealous etat-major. 
 
 1306. Do you mean for each county ? — Y''es ; it 
 should be in communication with the Grovernment ; 
 each county should have a regularly organized system, 
 its own means of transport and commissariat ; thus, 
 instead of having one commissary-general in London 
 buying bullocks, each county would supply its own. 
 
 1307. {Col. MacMurdo.) A staff implies also a 
 general to whom that staff would belong. Would you 
 have a general officer in each county ? — Pardon me, 
 in a county you would not appoint a general to 2,000 
 br 3,000 men. 
 
 1308. What staff would you have in a county 
 where there were only 3,000 men ? — Why should not 
 the senior colonel take the command on a lield day. 
 
 1309. As a brigadier-general ? — Yes ; or as senior 
 colonel. 
 
 1310. Then, again, in those counties where there 
 were 10,000, 12,000, or 18,000 men, what staff would 
 you have ? — A divisional or brigade staff. 
 
 1311. Should the general bo a volunteer officer? — 
 That would depend upon circumstances. Her Ma- 
 jesty could choose whom she thought right, but in 
 peace time I would give the volunteers every facility 
 to learn their work ; in peace time I would give 
 every volunteer every chance he could have of learn- 
 ing his work, in preparation for the evil day. If 
 that is not done, when the evil day does come accord- 
 ing to the present system there will be immense 
 confusion, for there are not so many general officers 
 now who can command 4,000 or 5,000 men, and 
 if this country was invaded, you must remember that 
 the army would require to be very much increased. 
 You would have the pensioners out, and an enormous 
 force of militia, and the question is, have we got 
 officers in this country who have had experience 
 enough to be able to step into their places when the 
 emergency came ? I think that you would run very 
 short of men ; in addition to the regulars, militia, 
 and pensioners, you would very likely have 500,000 
 volunteers, and who are the officers who are going to 
 command these men, unless you give a certain number 
 a chance of learning their business as to organizing, 
 transporting, and going through the whole system 
 beforehand. Y''ou will have frightful confusion, men 
 not knowing their work, and not knowing what to do, 
 and you should give them the opportunity of compre- 
 hending what they will have to do. Iu Middlesex you 
 have 18,000 or 20,000 men, and I should say let the 
 senior colonel command ; do not call him a general, if 
 the term is offensive, call him by any other name ; but 
 let him learn how to command, in the same way as we 
 proposed iu the year 186.0, and which was agreed to by 
 all the colonels in London, but who chose afterwards 
 to alter their minds ; I have all their names here 
 apjirovjng of the principle. 
 
 1312. Do you mean approving of the principle of 
 the senior colonel commanding in a county ? — Y''es ; 
 even up to 20,000 men. 
 
 1313. Do you mean that the senior colonel com- 
 manding in a county should be the officer to command 
 the volunteer force in the county, to whom the divi- 
 sional staff and the assistant quartermaster-general 
 and the assistant adjutant-general should report ?— . 
 
 No ; 1 have stated before that we must res])eet pre- 
 conceived prejudices, and therefore 1 would still leave 
 it in the hands of the lord-lieutenant ; he should lie the 
 nominal head of the board, and the staff should be 
 under him ; thci'eforo he would be the representative 
 of the Government, and he would guide the rest. If 
 iie did not approve of more than two or three field 
 days, he would stop them, and therefore the senior 
 colonel, or the next colonel, would only be carrying 
 out the orders of the executive ; he would only lor 
 the lime being command. For example, I am going 
 down on Whit-Monday to Lord Cowper's at I'au- 
 sangcr ; I command, I am senior colonel, and after- 
 wards they march past ; they do not march past me, 
 but they march past the lord-lieutenant. I say, carry 
 out that same system. The lord-lieutenant is still 
 the governor of the county, and they would be under 
 his supervision and care ; but the mere command in 
 the field should be entrusted to those men whom you 
 wish to teach in a time of peace how to learn their 
 work for a time of need. I want to see the intelli- 
 gence of the country well developed, and those men 
 who are clever taught. The volunteers should be 
 able to criticise one another, and you cannot criticise 
 the regular soldiers. I should like to know, take 
 Brighton for instance, who would like to sit down 
 and criticise Lord Clyde ? I may, because I am 
 an independent man ; but other men will not do 
 it. In the army you cannot do it ; you would be 
 tried by a court-martial, if you began to attack your 
 superior ; but if you leave us alone, we shall criticise 
 one another until we arrive at perfection, and shall 
 never do any harm. This is a movement of public 
 opinion, and it would be dangerous to mix it up with 
 the army ; and I think the great difficulty is being 
 in any way connected with the army ; I think it 
 would be dangerous from the privates up to the 
 seniors, and more particularly in the seniors. 
 
 1314. Suppose that a colonel commanding the force 
 in a county was criticised to such an extent by those 
 under his command that several refused to obey his 
 orders to attend the meetings on general brigade 
 days, would not that cause great embarrassment in 
 the county ? — This is by no means likely ; a very in- 
 efficient old twaddler would probably be expelled by 
 the force of public opinion, whom you could not get 
 rid of by any other means. 
 
 1315. He being the senior colonel ? — Y''es. 
 
 1316. How could that state of affairs be remedied 
 — that is to say, the senior colonel being criticised to 
 such an extent that other battalions would not join 
 him on his field days ; by what means would you 
 remedy that state of things ? — Public opinion would 
 be the remedy, and this is a force entirely in which 
 public opinion will out. Suppose a regular officer 
 was commanding instead of a volunteer officer, you 
 would have the same criticism, and there would be the 
 danger of mixing the regulars up with the volunteers. 
 
 1317. {Major-Gcii. Eyre.) Might not the critics to 
 whom you have referred be the twaddlers, and might 
 not they be very ))ad judges ? — The volunteer force 
 is one of public opinion. 
 
 1318. I thought you stated that they would so 
 criticise each other that the old twaddlers would be 
 driven out ; but does it follow that the critics in the 
 case supposed would be good judges ? — You may 
 apply that style of reasoning to every subject under 
 the sun. 
 
 1319. {Lord Over.stone.) What would you say to a 
 system under which boys in a public school were able 
 to criticise the headmaster out of his office, in conse- 
 quence of alleged incompetent scholarship ? — I think 
 they ought to be well flogged. 
 
 1320. Would you apply the same rale to the volun- 
 teer force, and flog the men who criti('iscd a good 
 officer out of his position ? — You cannot argue 
 against that which is done and which will continue 
 to be done. I am endeavouring to show the Com- 
 mission the danger of mixing the two elements up, 
 and pointing out the result, IIow could you correct 
 a volunteer ? You canuot flog a volunteer nor put 
 
 K 2 
 
 Vhcoioit 
 J^ttiielagh. 
 
 6 June 1802.
 
 68 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Viscount jj-ji^^ ;„ ^jjg IjI.^pIj Ijjjlg . tjjpge arc our difficulties, wc 
 Banelayh. ^^^^^^^ ^^^^, ^j^^ ^^^.^^^^^ ^j. gj.itieism. I liojie the reguliii- 
 G June \S6ii soldiers Avill not put themselves in tlie false position of 
 beinj;; criticised, it is one of great danger to them. 
 
 1321. Does not your lordship adopt the principle 
 that criticism upon the acts of Government is 
 valuable or dangerous precisely in proportion to the 
 competency of the critics ? — Yes. 
 
 1322. Do you think that volunteer soldiers would 
 he competent critics of the conduct of the officers 
 who had the command of them ? — I do not say that ; 
 I only say what they will do, and it cannot fee pre- 
 vented. 
 
 1323. {Col. MacMiirdo.) What would be the 
 result of criticising a colonel commanding the volun- 
 teer force in a county ; would he be compelled to 
 resign ; he must, if he continues in the service, con- 
 tinue to be senior colonel, and what course would 
 you take to get rid of him? — How would you do if 
 you had got an inefficient colonel in London ; what 
 means have you got of getting rid of him ? 
 
 1324. Am I to be the critic ? — Yes ; how would 
 you get rid of bim ? 
 
 1325. I must leave that to the Secretary of State 
 to answer. You are proposing a scheme to this Com- 
 mission, and I am desirous to understand it ? — 1 am 
 proposing a scheme, but I must be a very clever 
 fellow if I can provide for every contingency. I say 
 that for the organization of the force in this country 
 it ought to be divided into counties or districts ; 
 and there should be an efficient staff in each county. 
 I would put the lord-lieutenant at the head of it, and 
 I would put the commanding officers as a kind of 
 committee ; we should then get together the best 
 elements for making a good staff or etat-major. 
 Then the question is, who is to command, and I 
 suggest that the senior officer in that county should 
 command. I think that that is very natural ; it is 
 what has generallj^ been done hitherto, and I do not 
 think that I am proposing anything new ; I should 
 say let the military men leave us alone. I have 
 mentioned the dangers arising from criticism ; to 
 criticise an officer in Her Majesty's service is a very 
 serious thing, and one which I think the officers 
 themselves would not like. 
 
 1326. {]"tscoiint Hardinge.) If the senior colonel 
 should prove uniit for his post, how would you pro- 
 vide for that ? — I really have not thought of that 
 seriously, but common sense tells me that he would 
 very soon feel it, ai*d because of that very criticism 
 arising from public opinion. 
 
 1327. Do you mean that he would feel it to this 
 extent, that he would say to the lord-lieutenant, or to 
 the board whicli you have mentioned, that he would 
 rather not undertake the duty ? — If he were unfit to 
 command, and the volunteers would not go to parade 
 with him, he would be a colonel without men to 
 command. 
 
 1328. {Sir G. A. Wetherall.) Is it not within 
 your knowledge that there are many officers com- 
 manding volunteer corps who are not fit to command, 
 but whose regiments do go to jjarade regularly ? — 
 Y''es, but how long will that last ? 
 
 1329. It has lasted since the establishment of the 
 force ? — True, the reason being that many of those 
 colonels are moneyed men, and men of influence. 
 
 1330. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do not jou think that 
 if you lay down that very marked line of separation 
 which you have expressed a desire to lay down 
 between the volunteer corps and the regular troops, 
 you will interfere with that very cordial feeling 
 which now subsists between the two ? — On the con- 
 trary, I take quite a different view. I wish to avoid 
 that which I think will inevitably take place. Let 
 us, for examjile, go down to Brighton, and suppose 
 an enemy to bo near us. You have strict discipline 
 on one side of a street, whore you have a force of dis- 
 ciplined men who are ordered to their beds by tattoo 
 at eight or nine o'clock. On the other side of the 
 street you have a large number of volunteer regi- 
 
 ments, composed of lords, dukes, and tradesmen ; but 
 they will not go to bed at eight o'clock, and you 
 cannot tbrce them. They will be sitting up and 
 smoking. 
 
 1331. {Sir G. A. Jf'et/ierall.) Suppose an enemy 
 was at Brighton, the first principle of discipline is 
 obedience ; do all your men obey you ? — No doubt of 
 it ; but it is different discipline. I have thought this 
 matter over as much as any man, and every day and 
 every hour I am the more convinced of the truth of 
 what I have said ; and if I do not fully explain myself 
 now, I can do so afterwards. You must give me 
 credit for what I have stated upon the subject of 
 discipline, and I do not say one word against the 
 discipline of the volunteers ; on the contrary, they 
 will go to a certain extent, but they will not go to. 
 the extreme of tapeism or the old galvanized ideas 
 of the time of Dundas. They will do very much as 
 I have seen other corps on service do ; but when 
 you call upon them to come out, they must do it 
 according to their own fashion, and in their own 
 way. You will not get the volunteers into bed at 
 eight o'clock at night, at tattoo, of that I am sure ; 
 and, again, if on one side of the street, as I have 
 stated before, you have strict discipline, and on the 
 other side of the street you have not, and one set of 
 men allowed to do what the other set may not, what 
 will be the effect on the army ? 
 
 1332. {Col. JIacMiirdo.) Your lordship has been 
 in camp before the enemy. Supposing you were in 
 command of troops once more, and those troops were 
 composed of regulars on one side of a street and of 
 irregulars or volunteers on the other, and that at 
 eight o'clock your orders for the night in front of 
 the enemy were that no lights were to be allowed 
 after sunset ; would you then allow either the regulars 
 or the volunteers to have any lights ? — Certainly 
 not. 
 
 1 333. Then would they not all be brought under 
 one rule of discipline ? — Yes. You put it very tritely 
 and very well ; they would be so ; but that would 
 only happen occasionally in camps, and in immediate 
 contact with an enemy. This is a large force of 
 50,000 or 60,000 men, which may be sent into towns; 
 the volunteers would there expect to be allowed a 
 considerable amount of latitude, to disperse for a cer- 
 tain number of hours, and the people would receive 
 them well, a feeling which they would not extend to 
 the regulars. The force is different altogether. 
 
 1334. You are aware that, in front of the enemy, 
 they would all be under the same Mutiny Act ? — ■ 
 Yes, but you would not enforce it as if you were 
 dealing with regulars. 
 
 1335. {Chairman.) Su^jposing that this force were 
 disciplined entirely and governed by their own staff, 
 would not this difficulty arise in case of an invasion, 
 and their services being required, that they would be 
 brigaded with regular troops and must be under the 
 command of a military officer ; and if the discipline 
 were not the same as that of the military force with 
 which they were brigaded, how do you think that 
 would work ? — That, viz., the being brigaded with 
 regulars, is the very thing I do not advise. I would 
 work the volunteers separately. Let me suppose 
 that we hear to-night that an enemy is landing at 
 Brighton, and 15,000 or 20,000 volunteers are hurried 
 off. General So-and-so is to take the command. I 
 know that he will not risk his reputation by going 
 pell mell into a town and occupying the houses with 
 volunteers ; but he will, as I believe has been done 
 before, occupy a certain position, cover certain roads, 
 and secure his communications. If volunteers were 
 driven back, it would be no disgrace to them ; 
 but to the regular oIHcer commanding it would be a 
 disgrace ; the mere fact of being beaten back would 
 be a disgrace. The volunteers must be used as an 
 irregular force, and not as a regular force. 
 
 1336. {Viscount Ifardinge.j Did you not state 
 that you thought the volunteer force generally re- 
 quired further aid from the Government ? — Yes, I 
 think they do.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN, 
 
 GO 
 
 1337. Will you state in what shape you think that 
 further aid should be given ? — My experience has 
 reference only to the metropolis. I think that the 
 Government might give us headquarters, armouries, 
 and places suitable for recruit and company drills. 
 
 1338. Do you think tliat each olHcer should send 
 in an estimate of what he required ? — No ; if the 
 Government give headquarters there would be jio 
 necessity for any estimate. I lay great stress upon 
 headquarters ; and I would refer, as an example, to 
 the volunteer London Artillery, Victorias, and the 
 Devonshire corps ; they have koyit together because 
 their headquarters were good, and that is what you 
 must do here in London. 
 
 1339. The rent of headquarters would vary in 
 ditferent localities ? — Yes. 
 
 1340. Would you propose that each officer should 
 state to the Government what amount of rent he 
 would require ? — That may be very difhcult. The 
 Government may choose to say that they will give so 
 much per head eSectives ; that is one way of doing it. 
 
 1341. You mean, I presume, that the expenses of 
 headquarters, armoury, &c., should be paid by tlie 
 Government, but tliat it should not exceed the rate 
 of 1/. a head? — I will not say that, for in dilferent 
 localities land varies in price ; round Loudon, it is 
 1,000/. an acre, and near Penshurst, for example, 
 100/. an acre. 
 
 1342. In fact there would be an estimate sent in 
 from each corps ? — That must be left very much to 
 the discretion of the Government ; the largest benefit 
 that you can give us is to give us headquarters. 
 
 1343. Referring to the metropolitan corps, and 
 assnraing that there are ditiiculties in the way of a 
 capitation grant, do you think that clothing sliould 
 be given gratuitously, cither in the piece, or made 
 up, and that it would be acceptalile ? — To give them 
 clothing I think would be perfectly ridiculous ; if 
 you do so, you destroy the independence of the 
 movement. 
 
 1344. It has been proposed by previous witnesses 
 that the Government should make a capitation grant, 
 so much per head, to be expended entirely at the dis- 
 cretion of the commanding officers ; do you approve 
 of that suggestion ? — There is a way of doing every- 
 thing ; you may call it a capitation grant, or the 
 Government might say, we will give you the money 
 for your armouries or your grounds. I should not 
 call it so much a head. 
 
 1345. You are aware that in some corps they have 
 spent large sums of money on their bands, in some 
 corps as much as 300/. and as much as 600/. a year. 
 Do you think that tliey would have a fair right to 
 come to the Government and ask for furtlier aid ? — 
 Certainly not ; when you see a regiment uiarching 
 out with 40 or 50 men, they are only touting for 
 numbers. I tliink it is very unfair upon well orga- 
 nized battalions. 
 
 1346. Is not one of the evils which has attended 
 the movement in the metropolis this, that many corps 
 have been very extravagant iu their bands ? — I dare 
 say that it is an item that would tell against them. 
 
 1347. I think you have stated that you do not give 
 any extra allowances to the drill Serjeants or the 
 adjutant ? — Yes, excepting the serjeant-major. 
 
 134S. Are you aware that it is the practice in 
 many corps to do so ? — I have heard so. 
 
 1349. Do you tliink it is necessary to give any 
 extra allowance to the drill Serjeants and adjutant ? — 
 The country adjutants are very well paid. I have 
 several armourers, and I only pay them 1L«. a week. 
 
 1350. Are your scrjeants well satisfied with the 
 Government pay? — The serjeant-major, certainly not, 
 as he could get better wages elsewhere. 
 
 1351. How comes it that you have only one 
 Serjeant ? — I cannot get them ; I liave only one drill 
 Serjeant who is a good one. 
 
 1352. And could you get them if the Government 
 gave them higher pay ? — I think that a little higher 
 pay would be an inducement. 
 
 1353. {Licut.-Col. Barttelot.) Do you find that tlie 
 
 adjutant's pay i.s suflicient? — I am very fortunate in 
 my adjutant; he is a man of independent means, 
 otherwise I think the work is iiard for the pay. Some 
 adjutants have nothing to do, and others are very 
 liard-worked ; my adjutant, Captain Turner, is a very 
 conscientious man, and 1 think tlnit he has much 
 more work to do than any adjutant in a regiment of 
 the line. 
 
 1354. Do you eni])loy liim every da^- in the week ? 
 — Yes ; he goes to hciidiiuai'ters twice a day, and he 
 writes an amazing numl>er of letters. 
 
 1355. Do you keep your arms at headquarters, or 
 do you allow the men to take them home ? — 1 allow 
 the men to take them out, but every man signs a 
 paper and becomes responsible for his rifle. 
 
 1356. {3Iajor-Gen. Eyre.) What proportion of 
 your corps can use the rifle at the target ? — This 
 year we have not got in our returns ; last year out of 
 1,200 men we had over 500 who had passed through 
 their classes, and I think that this year we shall have 
 600. 
 
 1357. {£nrl of Ducie.) Who have passed through 
 the three classes ? — Through tlie first period. 
 
 1358. [Viscount Jlardi/iye.) Are the cajitains of 
 companies in your corps put to any considerable 
 expense ? — Not sixpence. As regards the men I 
 have laid it down as a rule, as our subscription is a 
 guinea, that I would not ask them for one sixpence 
 more, with the exception of one shilling for a havre- 
 sack. I liave not altered the uniform, and the band 
 is not compulsory, that is maintained by contri- 
 butions ; and the only thing tliat I have asked them 
 to do has been lately to have knapsacks, but tliat is 
 not compulsory. 
 
 1359. By that means you have obtained probably, 
 and wliich I presume you consider an advantage, a 
 considerable infusion of military men into your corps ? 
 — If I had not had military men, I could not have 
 come into the park as I did, three months after the 
 regiment was formed, in the face of 20,000 people. 
 
 1360. In corps where certain expenses fall upon 
 the captains, a good many who have served in the 
 line would be detei-red from joining them, would they 
 not ? — Yes. 
 
 1361. What I mean is this, that in those corps 
 where the captains of companies are obliged to give 
 expensive prizes to be shot for, many oflicers who had 
 served in the line would not be able to take command 
 of companies iu those corjis if they were expected to 
 do the same thing ? — Common sense would show that ; 
 but to go back to your question as to Government 
 aid, I may mention that I have been written to by 
 many members of other corps, who have asked me to 
 mention that it would be a great boon if a certain 
 sum were given them for field days, to provide for 
 railway expenses. I have received many letters to 
 this eliect. 
 
 1362. {Chairman.) They want some assistance for 
 tlie battalion drills ? — Yes. There are other means 
 by which I would propose to popularize the volunteer 
 movement. I think that the commanding officers and 
 field officers after a certain period of time, say eight 
 or ten years, might very well have tlicir rank con- 
 firmed, that is, that an oflicer should retain his rank 
 after 10 years. Witii regard to the privates, I have 
 also considered what we should give them, and I 
 know of nothing unless you exempt tliem from serving 
 on juries and inquests ; I think that would be a boon. 
 Tlieu comes the question of the adjutants, tlie drill 
 Serjeants, and the musketry instructors, who are now 
 paid by the Government. I think I would throw 
 those posts open to the force. I would allow as 
 adjutant a man who had served as a volnnteer for 
 three or five years ; and as to the musketry instructor 
 and drill Serjeant, I would also let tlieir places be 
 comjieted for. I know one volunteer, a very good 
 mail, who is quite fit to be an adjutant, and I know 
 in my own regiment two or three Serjeants who arc 
 ((uite equal to any Serjeants of tlie line. I would 
 throw all paid volunteer appointments open to the 
 
 K 3 
 
 Viscount 
 Jianelayh.
 
 (0 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS" APPOINTED 
 
 Vixfoiiiit usual competition. I throw out these suggestions 
 liiinvtaiili. ^x\t\\ the view of popularizing the volunteer move- 
 ment, and I would oven carry it so far, referring 
 now to a scheme of Lord Elcho's, for charging some- 
 thing like a farthing in the pound as a kind of rating, 
 that if this scheme be carried out, all volunteer 
 effectives should lie exempt. 
 
 1363. Is there any other suggestion that you wish 
 to offer ? — None. I have not been able fully to ex- 
 plain my ideiis, but I am quite ready to write down 
 a detailed jilan if the Commissioners at all care for it. 
 I have a very sirong feeling upon tlie matter, and 1 
 have endeavoured to answer the questions, though of 
 ratiier a discursive nature, which you have put to me. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Ctpt. 
 A. Ewens. 
 
 Captain Alexander 
 
 1364. (Chairman.) You are adjutant of the City 
 of London Rifle Volunteer Brigade ? — Yes. 
 
 1365. Of how many men does that brigade con- 
 sist ? — I think the number is 1,217. 
 
 1366. I believe you wish to make some suggestions 
 to the Commissioners upon some points ? — The only 
 thing that I wish to mention is this ; I think ir 
 would be very essential to have a paid quartermaster 
 for the London corps generally. 
 
 1367. (Col. MacMurdn.) What would be his 
 duties ? — To look after transit, commissariat, ammu- 
 nition, armoury, and, when required, camp duties. 
 
 1368. On whom do those duties fall now ? — On 
 me. 
 
 1369. ( Viscount Hardimje.) Do you think, con- 
 sidering the great expense that the corps is put to 
 for its band, which has lately come to the knowledge 
 of the public through the newspapers, that it could not 
 afford out of its income to pay for a quartermaster ? 
 — It might perhaps for this year; but- what may 
 happen next year we do not know. 
 
 1370. Do you know what the balance in hand is at 
 the present moment ? — Yes. 
 
 1371. It is very large, is it not? — The money 
 balance is about 1,500A, but with assets and liabilities 
 we are over 2,000/. 
 
 1372. Have you any reason to apprehend any 
 falling off iu the subscriptions ? — Yes. 
 
 1373. Upon what grounds? — I cannot tell cer- 
 tainly, but should ascribe to expense and want of 
 time. 
 
 1374. Do you receive any annual subscriptions from 
 your honorary members ? — Yes ; a very small amount. 
 
 1375. Those annual subscriptions, I presume, will 
 continue ? — They have decreased to a nominal sum. 
 
 1376. (Earlof Ducic.) Does this 2,000/. consist of 
 part of a capital sum not expended ? — No ; it is 
 taking into consideration liabilities and assets. 
 
 1377. Have you any reason to anticipate a falling 
 off of your donations ? — Yes. 
 
 1378. What are the grounds upon which you anti- 
 cipate that ?— Some months ago we employed a 
 collector to obtain donations, and he has generally 
 failed. 
 
 1379. Does he report to you as to his failures? — 
 No. 
 
 1380. What is the expense of your band ? — About 
 600/. a year. 
 
 1381. What is the total annual expenditure of the 
 corps ?— About 2,500/. 
 
 1382. Can you tell what proportion the expense 
 of the band bears to the whole annual expenditure of 
 the corps ? — About one-fifth. 
 
 1383. Can j'ou state what is the total annual 
 revenue of the corps ? — It varies in different years. 
 
 1384. Can you state the revenue for this year, or 
 for the last year ? — I cannot ; I have three balance 
 sheets for the last three years. 
 
 1385. What has been the total annual expendi- 
 ture for each year during the last three years ? — ■ 
 It averages over 3,000/., which includes the heavy 
 expenditure at the Crystal Palace. 
 
 1386. Can you state what are the principal items 
 of that expenditure ? — No ; but they will be correctly 
 shown in answers to the Commission papers. 
 
 1387. Are there not some large items in so large 
 an expenditure? — Yes, Crystal Palace, bands, &c., &c. 
 
 1388. Have you given the expense of the band, or 
 are there further expenses iu addition to the band ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Ewens examined. 
 
 1389. What is the total cost of the band? — 
 About 600/. per annum. 
 
 1390. From what sources mainly is that sum of 
 3,000/. and odd derived ? — From the subscriptions of 
 the men. 
 
 1391. What is the subscription per man? — One 
 guinea. 
 
 1392. That would be 1,200/. ; whence does the rest 
 come? — We started, I believe, with a revenue of 
 8,000/. 
 
 1393. Was that obtained by donations? — Yes, by 
 life subscriptions, donations, and subscriptions to the 
 baud. 
 
 1394. I wish to ascertain what is your annual 
 revenue ; the subscriptions, I presume, fall in an- 
 nually, or do you mean donations for life ? — Dona- 
 tions for life ; honorary members subscribe two gui- 
 neas a year. 
 
 1395. How many members are there subscribing 
 two guineas a year ? — I cannot tell you. 
 
 1396. Can you state the total amount of the hono- 
 rary subscriptions per annum ? — I can give you our 
 receipts and expenditure for the last three years ; 
 1859-60, receipts 8,879/. Os. 6r/., payments 3,749/. 
 Is. Id. ; 1860-61, receipts 7,221/. Is. Id., payments 
 4,825/. As. 3d. ; 1861-62, receipts 4,490/. 0.s\ 3t/., 
 payments 2,190/. 13s. ; leaving us a balance, of assets 
 iu excess of liabilities, of 2,368/. 7*. 3d. 
 
 1397. (Chairman.) You think that the public 
 ought to pay for the quartermaster of the regiment ? 
 — The regiment will not do it, and no man will work 
 without it. 
 
 1398. (Col. MacMurdo.) You are aware that a 
 supernumerary officer is allowed to perform the duties 
 of quartermaster, and another to perform the duties 
 of paymaster ? — Yes. 
 
 1399. 1 see that your estimate does not comprise the 
 officers ? — No. 
 
 1400. What are the subscriptions of the officers ? 
 — The annual subscription for all grades is one guinea 
 a year, and one guinea entrance : but the band sub- 
 scriptions are in these proportions : lieutenant-colonel, 
 12 guineas ; major, 10 guineas ; captains, 7 guineas ; 
 lieutenants, 5 guineas ; ensign, 3 guineas ; surgeon, 
 7 guineas ; and assistant surgeons, 5 guineas. 
 
 1401. Are there any other expenses to which the 
 officers are liable ? — Nothing, except active expenses. 
 I have a list here of an officer's expenditure for the 
 first year. 
 
 1402. Have you any reason to suppose that the 
 want of officers in your corps, as it appears you are 
 not filled up to the establishment, for there are six 
 subalterns wanting, is attributable to the expenses 
 which deter officers from joining the corps ? — No ; 
 we have more than 12 applicants now. 
 
 1403. Why are they not appointed ? — Because 
 there was a misunderstanding between Colonel Hicks 
 and the Court of Lieutenancy. 
 
 1404. How long is it since Colonel Hicks left ? — 
 Some months. 
 
 1405. What steps have you taken to make up the 
 establishment of the corps in officers ? — The recom- 
 mendation which was laid before the Court of Lieu- 
 tenancy stayed there for several months, but they 
 were appointed as soon as Colonel Ward joined ; he 
 has proposed more. 
 
 1406. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Why do you think 
 that the honorary subscrijitions from honorary mem- 
 bers of two guineas per year will fall off. or be 
 withdrawn ? — I cannot tell ; I only know from being
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN ClIlEAT BUITAIK. 
 
 71 
 
 told tliat they vary. I have nothing whatever to do 
 with the subscriptions, or with the money. 
 
 1407. Then you state that merely from hearsay ? — 
 Yes ; from the Secretary. 
 
 1408. (Lord Overstonc.') You cannot ^ive tlie 
 Commission any estimate as to wliat is the annual 
 ineonje that can bo fairly calculated upon ? — No. 
 
 1409. {Liciif.-Col. Bfirttelol.) Have you not two 
 adjutants ? — Yes. 
 
 1410. You are one of them ? — Yes. 
 
 1411. Do you receive anything besides your pay 
 from the corps ? — Yes. 
 
 1412. How much do you receive ? — 200/. a year. 
 
 1413. Does the other adjutant receive anything 
 besides his pay ? — He has received a gratuity ; no 
 income. 
 
 1414. {Lo7-d Overstonc.) The number of men in 
 your corps is 1,200 ?— Over 1,200. 
 
 1415. Can you form any estimate of what is the 
 necessary annual expenditure for keeping in a iair 
 degree of efficiency, and with a proper regard to 
 economy, 1,200 men ? — I cannot. I do not attend 
 any of the civil meetings. 
 
 1416. {Licnf.-Cvl. Barttelot.) Do j^ou pay a clerk ? — 
 Yes ; one clerk. 
 
 1417. (Co/. MacMiirdo.) Is anything paid to your 
 drill instructor besides what he receives from the 
 Government ? — Yes, there is to four ; to two serjeant- 
 majors, and to the musketry instructor, and to the 
 orderly room clerk. 
 
 1418. Are there any Government Serjeants who do 
 not receive anything ? — Yes. 
 
 1419. Why should there be a diiference between 
 them ? — They are a different class of men. 
 
 1420. The Government Serjeants are instructors, 
 are they not ? — Yes. 
 
 1421. Why should one serjeant-instructor receive 
 an extra allowance, and the others not ? — Because 
 the services of some are more valuable to the corps 
 than others. 
 
 1422. They receive an extra allowance ? — Yes ; 
 and the musketry instructor, who is a first-class man 
 from Hythe, receives pay. 
 
 1423. An extra allowance? — Yes; and the man 
 who does the orderly room clerk's work receives 12/. 
 ii year from the corps and 12/. from me. 
 
 1424. (^I^ord Elcho.) Is it one of the Serjeants who 
 is allowed by Government who does the orderly room 
 work ? — Yes, and he does the drill as well. 
 
 142.5. {Col. Mnc3Iiirdo.) How many of your Ser- 
 jeants do not receive any extra allowance ? — One. 
 
 1426. What duty does he perform ? — Ho drills a 
 recruit squad, and he attends to the marking of the 
 shooting, and he writes in the orderly room. 
 
 1427. Is he satisfied with the Government pay ; is 
 it sufficient for him to carry on with ? — No ; I think 
 not. 
 
 1428. (LordElcho.) Do you mean from individual 
 members, or does he receive the gifts by companies ? 
 — Individual members. 
 
 1429. Merely individual presents ? — Yes. 
 
 1430. For drilling them ? — No ; for general work. 
 
 1431. Did you lookout for these Serjeants yourself ? 
 — No ; tlie two serjeant-majors were appointed before 
 I joined. 
 
 1432. The two serjeant-majors had been in the re- 
 giment before you joined, and before the warrant 
 came out, I suppose, sanctioning an establishment of 
 Serjeants for the volunteers ? — Yes ; two only were 
 employed and paid by the regiment before I joined. 
 
 1433. Since tbe Government supplied those Ser- 
 jeants, have you had to look out for any ? — Yes ; two 
 more. 
 
 1434. And to only one of those have you found it 
 necessary to give an extra allowance ? — Yes. 
 
 1435. Do you find him with quarters ? — No. 
 
 1436. {Col. MacMurdo.) One of your serjeant- 
 majors belongs to the Tower, does he not ? — Yes, he 
 is a yeoman warder. 
 
 1437. How much extra allowance do you give him ? 
 
 — I cannot say positively ; Imt 1 tliink it is 3/. or 4/. 
 a month. 
 
 1438. Do you provide him witli lodgings? — No; 
 he has a liouse in tlie Tower ; but I hope you will 
 understand tliat when speaking of money nuitters I 
 really do not know, tor I do nut attend to them. 
 
 1439. (Lord Klclio.) Has there been any falling 
 off in the number of your corps ? — Yes. 
 
 1440. What is the greatest strength that the corps 
 has ever borne on its muster rolls ?~I cannot state 
 positively, but over 1,600 on the muster roll. 
 
 1441. It is now 1,200; was it ever 1,600 in your 
 time ? — Yes. 
 
 1442. Were there ever 1,600 men who paid their 
 guinea subscription in one year ? — 1 think not. 
 
 1443. Do you know what is the greatest number 
 who have ever paid their subscriptions in one year ? 
 — I do not. 
 
 1444. Do you know whether there is any diiiiculty 
 now in getting in the subscriptions? — "We are in 
 arrear, at least so I am told. 
 
 1445. Who has charge of the finance'? — The secre- 
 tary and the colonel ; ho has charge, with a committee 
 to assist him, and the secretary who keeps the books. 
 
 1446. Have you a secretary besides the orderly 
 room clerk ? — Yes. 
 
 1447. Do you know what that secretary's pay is ? 
 — £120 a year. 
 
 1448. You have had a secretary from the begin- 
 ning, have you not. — Yes. 
 
 1449. Were there not some defalcations in tljo 
 corps ? — ^Yes. 
 
 1450. To a large amonnt ? — Something like 900/. 
 
 1451. Of the 8,000/. which had been collected, you 
 were cheated out of 900/. ? — Yes ; it just amounted 
 to that, as far as T can tell you. 
 
 1452. {Col. MacMurdo.) What is the purport of 
 the paper you have handed in ?— It is only lo show 
 the expense of one officer. 
 
 1453. The expenses of one officer appear to have 
 been 93/. 15s. lOrf. ? — Yes, for the first year. 
 
 1454. {Chairman.) Is there an expense of a similar 
 kind every j'ear ? — No. 
 
 1455. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) In fact that is the price 
 of his commission ? — He was a private up to the time 
 of his commission. 
 
 1456. I do not see the uniform for the officers 
 in this paper? — You will see it under the word 
 " tailor." 
 
 1457. {Chairman.) Have you any other suggestion 
 to offi^r besides as to the payment to the quarter- 
 master ? — No. 
 
 1458. {Lord Elcho.) Has the attendance at drill 
 fallen off much ?— No ; it falls ofi" during the hot 
 months, but during the winter it contJMues on the 
 average about the same. 
 
 1459. What does it average at the battalion 
 parades ; have you seen a third of the whole corps, 
 or 400 men, present at the battalion parades ? — -Not 
 in Guildhall, we cannot do it there, but on Satur- 
 days and on a field day out then wo do see from 400 
 to 600 men. 
 
 1460. How many did you muster at Richmond the 
 other day ? — I think there were 688. 
 
 1461. {Lord Overstonc.) Are you prepared to give 
 an)- decided opinion as to the cause of the falling off 
 in your numbers ? — Not a decided opinion, only my 
 own idea. 
 
 1462. What is your idea of the cause of the falling 
 off?- — -The expenses, the late hours, and other 
 attractions. 
 
 1463. You think that the causes are partly causes 
 which are removable by an alteration of the regula- 
 tions, and partly causes which arise entirely from 
 expenditure ? — Yes. 
 
 1464. {Lord Elcho.) What do you mean by late 
 hours ? — Returning home so late from the Saturday 
 field days ; we have a great minibei' of married men 
 who live in the suburbs, and wlien they arrive in 
 London there are no trains or busses to take them to 
 
 K 4 
 
 ('ai>t. 
 A. Kwcm. 
 
 f> .Tunc 18G2.
 
 72 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TA.KEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONEES APPOINTED 
 
 Capl. 
 A. Euens, 
 
 6 June 1862. 
 
 their lumies, llicy are, consequently, put to the 
 expense of a cab or obliged to remain in town. 
 
 146.J. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) On other days an 
 earlier honr wonld not suit them ? — They could not 
 come on other days at an earlier liour. 
 
 1466. {Lord Elcho.) Where do your ordinary 
 
 battidion parades take place on the Saturdays ? — We 
 always parade at Guildhall, and niiirch out ; we go 
 to Hyde Park, Regent's Park, Hampstead Heath, 
 Blackheath, and Busliy Park. 
 
 1467. At what hour do you usually get back ? — At 
 11, 12, 1, and 2 o'clock in the morninsr. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Lient.-Col. 
 Dreghmn, 
 
 Lieut.-Col. Deeghorn examined. 
 
 1468. (C/i(iirma/i.) You command the 3rd Lanark- 
 shire Rifle Volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 1469. Is that, an administrative battalion ? — No, it 
 is a consolidated battalion. 
 
 1470. Of how many companies does it consist ? — 
 Of nine companies. 
 
 1471. How many men are there in each company, 
 100 men ? — That is the maximum. 
 
 1472. Hov,' many men have you on your muster 
 i-olls ?— I think there is somewhere under 600. 
 
 1473. Do you iind that the numbers diminish? — 
 Not much ; we are not much diminished in effective 
 members. 
 
 1474. Are you well provided with rifle ranges and 
 drill slieds ?— We are pretty well provided in that 
 respecl. 
 
 147o. Have those been paid for by the subscribers ? 
 — They have been paid for by the corps. 
 
 1476. Is there an annual subscription rai::ed in 
 the corps ? — Yes, there is ; an annual subscription 
 should be raised in it. 
 
 1477. Of how much per man: — I think it is a 
 small sum of 2s. Gd. for each man, and so much for 
 each officer, but that has not been very well paid by 
 the men. 
 
 1478. What has been the total amount raised by 
 the subscriptions ? — I am not quite ])repared to say, 
 but for the two first companies of the battalion 
 in the first two years when we provided our own 
 rifles, we raised nearly 2,000?. for the two first com- 
 panies ; they were the two first nearly, except Sir 
 Archibald Campbell's, which was the first company 
 that was raised in Lanarkshire, and the one that I 
 was connected with was the second. At that time 
 the Government did not provide rifles at all, and the 
 men were obliged to provide their own rifles and 
 other things, and we raised as nearly as possible for 
 the first two years about 2,000/. 
 
 1479. Have you any doubt as to being able to 
 maintain the efficiency of your corps ? — Yes, I have 
 very considerable doubts, and I expressed those 
 doubts at a public meeting in Glasgow two years 
 ago. 
 
 1480. Will you have the goodness to state to the 
 Commission the grounds upon which you entertain 
 those doubts ? — I find that there are a number of 
 young men, even in what are called the self-support- 
 ing companies, who find a difficulty in renewing their 
 uniforms ; for example, there is in my regiment the 
 son of a friend of mine, a most respectable man in 
 a manufacturing business, and who is considered a 
 man in a good position ; I was asking him what 
 had become of his son at the drills lately, and he 
 said to me, " To tell you the truth his uniform is done, 
 " and he did not like to say that he was not able to 
 " renew it." He had supplied his own uniform in the 
 first instance, but he found it diflicult to renew ii. 
 
 1481. Do you think that that is generally the case 
 throughout the corps ? — That is just an instance in 
 the self-supporting companies, but in the artizan 
 companies it is almost universal ; I am quite per- 
 suaded that the artizan portion will not again renew 
 their uniforms, unless they be paid for in some other 
 way than by their subscriptions. 
 
 1482. In what way should you propose to supply 
 the deficiency ? — We have no mode of supplying it 
 \mless we go among the public generally and represent 
 to them the loss it would be to allow the battalion 
 to go down, and get subscriptions in that way, or 
 
 unless the Government give them assistance. People 
 have got tired, I think, of subscribing ; we have had 
 very great dilficuity in getting people to come for- 
 ward and subscribe again to any large amount. 
 
 1483. Are you speaking now of the honorary 
 members of the corps ? — \Ve do not get much from 
 the honorary members, we have not very many of 
 them ; probably wc have got altogether some 50/. 
 or 60/. from them. 
 
 1484. You are speaking of the subscriptions 
 received from the ordinary members of the corps ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1485. {Sir A. Camphcll.) At the time when the 
 volunteer movement first commenced in Glasgow 
 there was a public subscription raised ? — Yes. 
 
 1486. That subscription amounted, did it not, to 
 somewhere about 3,000/. — Yes. 
 
 1487. How was that subscription administered and 
 by v/hom ? — By a committee appointed by the sub- 
 scribers at a public meeting. 
 
 1488. Of whom did the committee consist ? — I tliink 
 it consisted of the commanding officers generally of 
 the \oluntcer corps. 
 
 1489. Did it not consist of captains of companies 
 already enrolled ? — I think it did. 
 
 1490. And a few other names ? — Y'es, outside. 
 
 1491. The money raised by that subscription was 
 spent entirely, so far as it has been spent, in aiding 
 the men to meet the expense of their uniform ? — 
 Precisely so. 
 
 1492. Do you recollect whether there was any pro- 
 posal made within the committee to administer that 
 subscription, that instead of being applied to the 
 uniforms it should be applied to the purposes of head- 
 quarters, practice ranges, and other jiermanent ex- 
 penses of the volunteer force ? — Y'cs. 
 
 1493. The proposal was made but was rejected by 
 a majority of the committee ? — Y'^es. 
 
 1494. That committee being composed of captains 
 of companies who themselves had become in some 
 instances responsible for the uniforms ? — Y'es, pre- 
 cisely so. 
 
 1495. Were any of the companies in your regi- 
 ment assisted out of that subscription ? — Two of 
 them, I think. 
 
 1496. Do 3-ou apprehend that those companies are 
 more or less likely to maintain their numbers than the 
 companies who did not receive such aid ? — I think 
 that they are less likely to maintain their numbers 
 luilcss they get aid from some other source. 
 
 1497. That is to say, as far as your experience 
 goes, that those companies of volunteers who origi- 
 nally did not provide their own uniforms will be less 
 likely to be .able to do again ? — I have no doubt 
 of it. 
 
 1498. That public subscription is the only source, 
 with the exception of the subscriptions of the 
 members, which has been to any extent available in 
 Glasgow for the expenses of the volunteer corps ? — 
 Y'es. 
 
 1499. There has been very little done with honorary 
 members ? — Very little. 
 
 1500. The organization in Glasgow has been an 
 entirely company organization ? — Y'es. 
 
 1501. Practically speaking it remains so, does it 
 not ? — Y'es. 
 
 1502. And with respect to financial matters ? — 
 Y'es. 
 
 1 503. Consequently in a financial sense the sub-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 73 
 
 scriptions ilifFer in almost every two companies in tlic 
 town ? — Yes. 
 
 1.504. Can you express any opinion as to the pro- 
 bable defection in numbers in the total force in 
 Glasgow, or is your exjjerience confined entirely to 
 your own rejriment ? — From what I have heard I 
 should sui)pose that a very large proportion of the 
 volunteer force in Glasgow will disappear unless 
 there is some aid given lo them. On the other iiand 
 I think that if there is siiljstantial aid givi'n to tlie 
 volunteers tlie numbers will be kept uj). 
 
 I.jO.5. (Lord Elcho.) What are the present num- 
 bers in Glasgow ? — I should suppose some 6,000 or 
 7,000. 
 
 Io0(). {Chairman.) Will you explain to the Com- 
 mission what you mean by a substantial aid ? — A 
 money grant to each efl'ective man to enable him to 
 provide a uniform. 
 
 1507. {Sir A. Campbell.) Would you propose 
 that it should be given to the individual or to the 
 commanding officer of the corps ? — I should say to 
 the commanding officer of the corps ; besides that, I 
 would contemplate giving them some aid towards the 
 erection of butts and rifle ranges, and such things as 
 those. 
 
 1508. (C/tairmrui.) I understood you to say that 
 you were provided with rifle ranges ? — Yes, but we 
 have the annual expense of them to keep up, the annual 
 rent of the ground upon which they arc erected 
 at this moment, although with the exception probably 
 of Sir Archibald Campbell's regiment, the one that 
 I command is just about as free of debt as any of 
 the others, but still I find th.at notwithstanding all 
 our exertions, and the subscriptions that we can 
 get from the men, — and I have subscribed within the 
 last six months 501. towards the battalion fund, — we 
 are now nearly 100/. in debt for battalion expenses, 
 irrespective of the company expenses. The ex- 
 penses connected with the uniforms we have never 
 interfered with as a battalion. 
 
 1509. What is the cost of your uniform? — The 
 cost of the uniform was originally 21. I8s. 
 
 1510. And the accoutrements ? — I think they came 
 to somewhere about 8.?. 
 
 1511. IMaking together about 3/. 6s. ? — Yes, that 
 was for the original companies that I am talking 
 of. I really do not know very much about the 
 others, because they came into the battalion after 
 those companies were formed, and I never made 
 much inquiry. 
 
 1512. {Sir A. Campbell.) Can you form any 
 opinion as to the number out of the present 6,000 or 
 7,000 volunteers who will probably fall oft' if things 
 remain as they are ? — I should say that there will 
 not be a fourth in existence unless some aid is 
 given. 
 
 1513. Do you think that there are any other means 
 in the place of a money aid which would eftect the 
 object of keeping up the numbers ? — I do not think 
 that there are. 
 
 1514. You think that the financial difficulty is the 
 only one ? — Yes ; and there is a reason for it, it is this, 
 the men who would take a money grant if given by 
 the Government would not take clothing, they would 
 consider it a species of degradation to be handed a 
 pair of trowsers or a coat, or anything of that descrip- 
 tion. I am persuaded that it would not do in any 
 other way than in the form of a money grant. 
 
 1515. You think that there would not be any such 
 sense of degradation in the case of a money grant 
 being given to be administered through the com- 
 manding officers to aid them in their expenses ? — No, 
 I think there would be no such objection. 
 
 1516. Have you considered what amount of grant 
 would be necessary, or in what form that grant 
 should be given ? — My own impression is that if a 
 grant of 30$. for each effijctive man were given that 
 would answer the purpose. I have heard others 
 who have had fully as much experience as I have 
 had strike at a higher sum. 
 
 1517. To what purposes would you restrict the 
 
 ap]ilication of a grant amounting to 30s. per man ? — I 
 would restrict it in the first instance to assisting such 
 of the men as required it. Some of them would not fake 
 it. I know that some men in my battalion would not 
 take it at all, they would providi' their own uniforms ; 
 in the first instance I would assist those men who 
 were not able to pi-ovide their own uniforms with a 
 part of the money, and then I would ai)ply any 
 Hurphis of it to tlie battalion fund ; for example, 
 I find that among the artizana of tlie corps it is 
 a dillicult thing to get them to pay half a crown 
 or 3.?. subscription towards the battalion fund, and in 
 short the captains of companies have a feeling of 
 delicacy in asking them for it. 
 
 1518. I suppose that 30.?. a head would enable you 
 to do away almost entirely with the subscriptions 
 from the privates ? — I think so. 
 
 1519. Would you consider it a proper application 
 of the money that a portion of the fund sliould bo 
 applied to the expenses of the band ?— No, I should 
 not. 
 
 1520. You would leave that to extraneous aid ? — 
 Yes, I would ; we have two bands connected with 
 my regiment, but they are kept up by the two 
 companies to which they are attached. 
 
 1521. Can you form any opinion of the amount of 
 expense which is incurred in the regiment exclusive 
 of the band, and exclusive of uniforms, for incidental 
 expenses ? — No, I am not prepared to say what the 
 amount is. 
 
 1522. Can you state to the Commission the total 
 expense of maintaining a regiment of your strength, 
 or a regiment 1,000 strong ? — No, I cannot. 
 
 1523. {Earl of Ducie.) You have stated that in 
 your regiment there are distinct companies of self- 
 supporting volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 1524. Is there any difference between them and 
 the other companies with respect to their efficiency ? 
 — No, I do not think there is much. 
 
 1525. Is there any ditterence with regard to their 
 attendance at drill .' — No ; there are some companies 
 that we are associated with connected with public 
 works ; the companies having been got up by the 
 proprietors of those works, and they can command 
 the attendance of the men at any time ; they attend 
 ver}' well. 
 
 1526. Are they companies composed of artizans ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 1527. Have those artizan companies been assisted 
 in obtaining their uniforms ? — I understand that the 
 proprietors of the works did originally clothe them 
 either partially or wholly. 
 
 1528. {Lord Elehn.) Of the 6,000 men, how many 
 do you suppose have found their own uniforms and 
 accoutrements ? — I should tliink that they have all 
 more or less contributed towards their own uniforms. 
 
 1529. Do you think that one-third of them have 
 equipped themselves entirely at their own expense ? 
 — I should say so. 
 
 1530. You think about one-third have ? — Yes, or 
 more than that. 
 
 1531. {Sir A. Campbell.) They have done it 
 entirely at their own expense ? — I should say so. 
 
 1532. {Viscoimt JIardinr/c.) What is the average 
 rate of wages that those working men receive ? — It 
 differs very much, according to the particular branch 
 of trade in which they are engaged. 
 
 1533. What should you say was the lowest rate of 
 wages that they receive ? — I should say that very 
 few of them get less than probably 1 8.?. a week. 
 
 1534. You do not think that any of them belong 
 to a class of men who would enrol themselves in the 
 militia ? — Not so far as my regiment is concerned. 
 
 1535. You have stated that yoil think thi; men 
 v,-onld not like to have clothing issued to them 
 directly from the Government ; would it not ooze out 
 who had been assisted by the grant if administered 
 by the commanding officer, and who had not ? — Yes, 
 but I do not think they would have any objection to 
 the thing if it were given in money. I do think that 
 
 L 
 
 Liiul. Ci>t, 
 JJmjhvrn. 
 
 G June 18C2.
 
 7*.' 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 lieiil.-Col. 
 Drefjlwrn. 
 
 6 June 1S62. 
 
 they would have an objection to receive clothing in 
 kind. 
 
 1536. {Sir G. A. WetheraU.) You do not limit 
 your enrolments to men who earn a certain amount 
 of wages, but you take any one of good character ? — 
 Yes, any man of respectable character. 
 
 1537. You do not mind whether his wages are 
 great or small ? — No ; but we should not take in 
 mere labourers. 
 
 1538. Do you think that any men enrol themselves 
 for the purpose of escaping from the ballot for the 
 militia ? — I do not think that there is one. 
 
 1539. Have you many men in your corps who are 
 liable to the ballot ? — Yes, almost every one of them is. 
 
 1540. {Lord Elcho.) You have stated that some of 
 your men required and received assistance towards 
 their uniform or towards something ? — Yes. 
 
 1541. Have you found that tliose men to whom the 
 assistance has been given, either towards their uni- 
 form or something else, have been as earnest and as 
 regular in attending the drills and in supporting the 
 cause as volunteers who have paid everything for 
 themselves ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 1542. {Viscount Hardinge.) Suppose the Govern- 
 ment issued so many yards of cloth to each company 
 or to each battalion, do you think that such a principle 
 as that would be acceptable to the men ? — I think 
 that it would be less objectionable than furnishing 
 them with made-up clothing. 
 
 1543. {Sir A. Campbell.) You have stated, I think, 
 that the uniform costs 3/. 6«. without accoutrements ? 
 —No, with accoutrements ; but I think they are 
 cheaper now. 
 
 1 544. Do you think it would be possible by reducing 
 the quality of the uniform and supplying one that 
 only costs 15s. to bring it within the power of the 
 men to clothe themselves ? — If you could give them a 
 uniform at 15*. I think you might also bring it within 
 their power to clothe themselves, but I understand 
 that that is perfectly imjiracticable. I have seen the 
 uniform to which you allude ; in the Exhibition they 
 have samples of it, and there are some of the officers 
 connected with my regiment who happened to have 
 seen some samples of this cloth, and they said that it 
 ■WAS perfectly absurd to think that it would stand any 
 wear. 
 
 1545. You do not think that it is possible to reduce 
 the price of the uniform to so low a point as to bring 
 it within the power of the men under your command 
 to provide it for themselves '■' — I do not think so. 
 
 1546. (Licut.-Col. Barttelot.) It has been reported 
 that a great number of men have enrolled themselves 
 who ought not to have enrolled themselves ; is it 
 within your knowledge that there are many men who 
 have enrolled themselves as volunteers who should not 
 have been volunteers ; I mean, are they men who might 
 go into the militia or line ? — No, I do not think that 
 that is so. Originally, when the movement was 
 started, I was very hostile to introducing the artizan 
 element into the volunteer movement at all, and we 
 excluded them in the two first companies that I was 
 connected with, but latterly, when we found that the 
 practice of introducing artizans was prevailing else- 
 where I began to change my mind about it and to 
 think that they would be a very useful adjunct to the 
 coi'ps, and we have so found it. 
 
 1547. {Lord Over stone.) Have you well considered 
 and formed a definite opinion upon the question, 
 whether or not it is expedient that a number of per- 
 sons should be dra^\ai into the volunteer force who are 
 not in circumstances to enable them to pay their own 
 expenses as connected with that force ? — I have 
 formed an opinion upon the subject, but I think you 
 are decidedly better able to judge of the expediency 
 than I can be. 
 
 1548. Our judgment is necessarily founded on the 
 opinions of well informed officers, like yourself ; will 
 you be kind enough to state your opinion and the 
 grounds upon which it is formed ? — I am not quite 
 prepared to state an opinion. 
 
 1549. You have already said that you think assis- 
 
 tance from the Government, represented by 30.?. a 
 head, would be efficient for its purpose; can you form 
 any opinion what proportion to the whole expenditure 
 in a corps that aid from the Government would bear ? 
 — I have always thought that between 35«. and 2/. a 
 man should meet the whole expenditure in a volunteer 
 corps. 
 
 1550. Do you think that 21. a head would probably 
 cover the whole expenditure in a volunteer regiment? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1551. Would it be expedient that Government, out 
 of that 2/., should contribute 30«., leaving the other 
 25 per cent, to be a part of the expenditure to be 
 borne by the corps itself? — Yes. It is matter of 
 opinion whether it is proper to keep up the numbers 
 or not ; I merely give that opinion upon the supposi- 
 tion that it is right to keep up the numbers ; if it is 
 thought that the niunbers should be diminished then 
 of course the aid should not be given. 
 
 1552. Do you think it is consistent with the prin- 
 ciple of the volunteer force that 75 per cent, of the 
 whole pecuniary expenditure should be borne by the 
 Government and 25 per cent, be borne by the volun- 
 teers themselves ? — I do not think it is right and 
 fair that men who give their time gratuitously, and 
 who are willing to do so, should be called upon to 
 give money towards it also, to the exclusion of the 
 general public who are deriving the benefit from the 
 movement. 
 
 1553. Do you not think that in the constitution of 
 the movement, which is essentially a volunteer one, 
 if one set of persons contribute their time and their 
 services, the expenditure necessary for it ought to be 
 sought principally from other persons vvho cannot 
 give their time, but who are capable of contributing 
 
 ■ their pecuniary aid ? — Yes ; but I think that it can 
 only be given in a fair and legitimate way, by being 
 made universal ; 1 may mention that I was for some- 
 time one of the magistrates of Glasgow, and am 
 now a county magistrate, and I have been so for 
 many years, and in that way 1 have had occasion to 
 go when subscriptions have been required, and 
 endeavour to raise subscriptions for particular funds, 
 such as the Crimean fund, or in the case of people 
 being thrown out of employment, — and there are a 
 few benevolent men in Glasgow, to whom you can 
 go with the certainty of obtaining money, but I think 
 that it would be perfectly unfair that such men as 
 those should be called upon to support such a move- 
 ment as this, while others are entirely escaping 
 from it. 
 
 1554. {Sir G. A. JVetheraU.) Do you think that 
 the enrolment of volunteers improves their social 
 habits ?— -Decidedly so. 
 
 1555. Are the artizans more trusted by their 
 employers ? — Yes, I think that it has had the best 
 possible effect. I recollect about 12 years ago in 
 Glasgow, when I was one of the magistrates, a riot 
 taking place among the work people who were out of 
 employment, but I do not think that now this volun- 
 teer movement has taken place there is any risk of 
 any such thing taking place, although the people are 
 out of employment just now. I think that this volun- 
 teer movement has mightily improved them ; they 
 have taken the oath of allegiance to Her Majesty, and 
 come in contact with other classes of the community, 
 and that has had the best effect, that is my expe- 
 rience. 
 
 1556. {Sir A. Campbell.) This year has afforded 
 you a very good opportunity of testing that ? — Yes ; 
 even some of the volunteers themselves are partially 
 out of employment. I knosv a number of them in my 
 own regiment who are upon half time. 
 
 1557. {Lord Elcho.) In forming companies do you 
 find it better to separate the classes or to mix them 
 together ? — We do not wish to make any distinction 
 at all if possible. 
 
 1558. {Viscount Hardinge.) Which companies 
 attend drill the best, the artizan companies or the 
 self-supporting companies ? — That depends very much 
 upon particular circumstances.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN (IKEAT liRITAIN. 
 
 75 
 
 1559. Do you think that at the incscnt, time tho 
 man whose uniform is paid f'oi' by tlu' linance com- 
 mittee is generally sjieaking; as good an attendant as 
 the man wlio provides his own imifbrm ? — I do, 
 decidedly. 
 
 1560. Uo you think that if furtlier aid were given 
 to the volunteers by the Government they would 
 object to a longer period of service and a longer 
 notice of resignation ? — I do not know, but 1 tliink it 
 would be important if it were possibh^ to have tho 
 j>eriod lengthened. 
 
 1561. Do you think that if further aid were given 
 they would submit to having a greater amount of 
 control exercised over them than is now exei'cised 
 over them ? — I am not ])repared to say that. 
 
 1562. (Lord Ehho.) That would depend, would it 
 not, upon what control it was and how exercised ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1563. {Chairman.) Do you find that they give 
 their time regularly to the drills ? — Yes. 
 
 1564. How often have you battalion drills ? — We 
 have not a battalion drill very frequently, the com- 
 panies being spread throughout the city, and Glas- 
 gow is an immense city ; the liead-quarters of one 
 company is at Busby, some miles away, but they have 
 company drills almost every week. 
 
 1565. Have many of your men passed througli a 
 course of rifle instruction ? — Yes, in the corps, but 
 not at Hythe. 
 
 1566. ( Viscount Hardiugc.) If further aid were 
 given do you think that Government would have a 
 right to insist upon the same amount of eilicieiicy that 
 exists at the present time, or should they require a still 
 greater amount of efficiency ? — I am not prepared to 
 say that the Government should insist upon the force 
 diing more than they are doing now. 
 
 1567. Are you prepared to admit that if further 
 aid were given from the Government it would in 
 some way indirectly alter the character of the move- 
 ment as being a self-supporting one ? — So far as the 
 money that was given to them is concerned it would 
 alter the character of the movement to that extent, 
 because I would understand that a volunteer regi- 
 ment should be entirely supported by themselves if 
 they were able to do it. 
 
 1568. {Lord ElcJio.) Do you think that you can 
 now call the volunteer force, or even a large portion 
 of it a self-supporting force, that is to say, that the 
 fiinds to meet the regimental expenses and other 
 incidental expenses come from the regiment itself, 
 and that in the different corps you could find money 
 to enable those corps to exisr, ? — No. 
 
 1569. At the present moment, taking that view of 
 the meaning of self-supporting, a very large portion 
 of the volunteer force is not self-supporting ? — Un- 
 questionably not. ' 
 
 1570. It is supported by extraneous aid, is it not, 
 received from benevolent persons ? — Yes. 
 
 1571. Your experience as a magistrate leads you 
 to think that that extraneous support comes only from 
 a few individuals, and that the mass of the public 
 who derive the benefit do not pav anything towards 
 it ?_Yes. 
 
 1572. Your opinion with regard to a benefit which 
 is universally spread over the whole of the community 
 is that the support which is given to it should come 
 from the whole of the community, and that the only 
 way of doing it is by obtaining Government assist- 
 ance ? — Yes. 
 
 1573. You have stated from your experience of the 
 artizans that they have im|)roved in their general 
 condition and character, and you believe if we had 
 the employers from your district before us they would 
 say that tliey found them better workmen 1- — ^I do not 
 know that they would say it made them better 
 workmen, but so far as my experience has gone, I 
 think that towards tho Government and towards their 
 fellow men generally they are much better members 
 
 ■ of society than they were before. 
 
 1574. More loyal subjects and better members of 
 society ? — Yes. 
 
 1575. {Sir G. A. IVfthcrnll.) Do you think that 
 tho habits of order which they have partially ac- 
 (]uired make them more regular in tho attention 
 they pay to their own civil employments ? — Yes, I 
 think so. 
 
 1576. {Lord Elcho.) Of those 6,000 men to whom 
 you have referred, who are mostly arti/ans, as I un- 
 derstand from you, composing the Glasgow volunteer 
 force, what proportion, or is there any proportion, 
 that would naturally enter into the army or into the 
 militia ? — 1 think tliere are very few of them. 
 
 1577. Your impression is that the services of those 
 (ijOOO men, either as militiamen or men eidistiug into 
 the regular army would be lost to the Slate were it 
 not that they were volunteers ? — I do decidedly think 
 so. I do not think that they are of that class which 
 generally enlist either into the regular army or into 
 the militia. 
 
 1578. And you think that they in no way inter- 
 fere with enlistments into the regular army ? — I do 
 think so. I do not believe that a single man in my 
 regiment would have enlisted either into the militia 
 or into tho regular army ; they are of the class 
 of mechanics, and not of that class that generally 
 enlist. 
 
 1579. {Sir G. A. WctheraU.) But it would affect 
 the militia, would it not, because although the ballot 
 is not in force, it is the law? — Yes, just so; but I 
 do not think that there are many of them who would 
 be available ; they would find substitutes rather. 
 
 1580. {L.ord Elcho.) Is it not the case that if the 
 ballot were enforced, we are all of us liable to bo 
 drawn for the militia between certain ages ? — Yes. 
 
 1581. {Viscount Hardingc.) Do you know whether 
 the militia regiment in your county is tolerably well 
 up in its numbers ? — I am not aware of that. 
 
 1582. {Lord Elcho.) Perhaps the most practicable 
 way of filling up the ranks of the volunteers would 
 be the enforcement of the ballot for the militia ? — 
 Yes, I think that it would bring in a class of men 
 that we have not got in it just now. 
 
 1583. Have you considered the <|uestion of exemp- 
 tions as an inducement to men to become volunteers ? 
 — I do not think that has had the slightest effect 
 with us. 
 
 1584. Do you thitd'i that any exemptions could be 
 given that would induce men to volunteer, and when 
 they had once volunteered, to remain in the force, 
 such as making them exempt from any civil duties 
 such as serving on juries, and serving as special con- 
 stables ? — No, that would have no effect. 
 
 1585. {Lord Overstone.) Do you not think that 
 it would be a good principle to substitute an exemp- 
 tion from one civil duty as an inducement to them to 
 undertake another civil duty ? — I do not think so. 
 
 1586. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you think that in 
 the Glasgow corps generally, there is any indisposi- 
 tion to servo under military command when gathered 
 together in large numbers ? — No, I do not think 
 there is. 
 
 1587. Your men, for example, would be quite 
 ready, if gathered together in a brigade to serve under 
 a military officer as well as under a volunteer officer? 
 — I think more so. 
 
 1588. {Viscount Hardinge.) With regard to the 
 clothing, supposing that you, as commanding officer, 
 issued clothing out to a certain number of men, pro- 
 vided by funds contributed by the Government, what 
 would you do in tho case of a man who left the town 
 and took his uniform with him ? — We should hold 
 him responsible to the commanding officer for his uni- 
 form if it was provided by the Government, and the 
 funds were derived from Government ; I would 
 ])ut it in the same way as the arrears due by him, 
 and that he should be liable to pay them up when ho 
 leaves the regiment. 
 
 1589. How would you proceed against a man in 
 such a case as that ? — There is a very summary mode 
 of procedure prescribed by the Act of Parliament. 
 
 1590. Take the case of a man resigning who had 
 received his clothing from you as commanding officer, 
 
 L 2 
 
 I.ieut.-Cnl 
 Oretjhorn. 
 
 C .Tune 1862.
 
 76 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieiii.-Cul. that clothing in all probability would lie returned 
 Dreghorn. j^^^ gtore for the moment, would it not ? — I do not 
 know that. 
 
 1591. Take the case of a man who resigns and who 
 is in debt to the corps ? — I would not accept his re- 
 signation as long as he was indebted to the corps. I 
 would hold that he was either indebted to the corps 
 or to the Government if part of his uniform was paid 
 for either by the one or by the other, and therefore 
 he would not bo entitled to resign. 
 
 1592. You would not let a man resign who had re- 
 ceived his uniform from you, and which had been paid 
 for out of Government money ? — Not until he had 
 paid back the money or until his uniform was done. 
 
 1593. Assuming that he had paid back the money, 
 the suit would then be returned into store, would it 
 not ? — If he paid back the money he would be 
 entitled to do what he thought fit with the uniform. 
 
 1594. But take the case of a imiform that would 
 be under certain circumstances returned into store, 
 would you re-issue that uniform to a new member ? 
 — I do not know that, I do not think they would 
 take it. 
 
 1595. (.S'jV A. Campbell.') Do you think tliat it is 
 of importance, with regard to the permanency of the 
 force in Glasgow and its neighbourhood, that some 
 decision should be come to immediately as to what 
 the Government intends to do ? — Decidedly. 
 
 1596. Do you think that further delay would be 
 prejudicial to the movement ? — Yes. 
 
 1597. {Lord Elcho.) There have been several 
 meetings lately, have there not, in Glasgow ? — Yes. 
 
 1598. The view taken at the meetings at Glasgow 
 I believe was that a certain capitation grant should 
 be made by the Government ? — Yes. 
 
 1599. Am I right in assuming that it never entered 
 into the head of any one connected with those 
 meetings that any portion of the money was under 
 any circumstances to find its way into the pockets 
 of the volunteers themselves as a payment for service 
 or anything of that kind ? — It never did. 
 
 1600. It was solely intended to be expended at the 
 discretion of the commanding officer upon things 
 
 which he considered essential for the maintenance of 
 his regiment ? — Precisely. 
 
 1601. They would repudiate anything like pay- 
 ment for their services ? — Yes. 
 
 1602. {Viscount Hardinge.) What security would 
 the Government have that the money was properly 
 expended by the commanding otticers ? — I think 
 that they would have the best guarantee possible. 
 Suppose, for example, that I take Glasgow, and 
 I presume that that would afford a proper criterion 
 of the character of the oflicers generally throughout 
 the country. I hold that it would be perfectly safe 
 in the hands of the officers of the battalion, and that 
 it would be perfectly well administered. 
 
 160.3. {Sir A. Campbell.) What are your reasons 
 for thinking that promptitude of decision on the part 
 of the Government is essential? — Because the uniform 
 of a number of the men is done, and they cannot 
 appear on parade ; they are found fault with for not 
 doing so, and I have been told privately that they 
 have a good deal of pride about them ; a number of 
 these men do not wish their poverty to be made 
 known, and they wovild rather send in their resigna- 
 tion than say " My uniform is done, and I cannot 
 " afford to provide a new one." 
 
 1604. {Lord Ovcrstoue.) Your opinion is that to 
 afford pecuniary aid to support the volunteer move- 
 ment, derived from the general taxation of the 
 country would be a sound and desirable step to take ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 ;: 1605. And you think that a decision upon the 
 subject is urgently required ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 1606. {Lord Elcho.) You are not connected with 
 any other part of Scotland 1 believe ? — No ; 1 happened 
 to be in London at the time when a great meeting 
 was to be held here, but not with tlic purpose of 
 attending it, I was here upon public business at the 
 time ; and I met with a great many volunteer officers 
 from various parts of England, and I found that they 
 had made up their minds very decidedly upon the 
 hubjcct. 
 
 1607. In the same sense in which you have spoken? 
 — Precisely, and rather stronger. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Maj. G. 
 
 Warrcnder, 
 
 Major George Waerendee examined. 
 
 1608. {Chairman.) I believe you command an ad- 
 ministrative battalion of Haddington Rifle Volunteers ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1609. You were formerly in the Guards, I believe? 
 — Yes, and in the line ; I held a captain's commission 
 in the line, and I exchanged afterwards into the Gviards. 
 
 1610. Of how many corps does the battalion con- 
 sist of which you have the command ? — Five com- 
 panies and one subdivision. 
 
 1611. Are those corps at a considerable distance 
 from each other, or are they near together ? — Of 
 the five companies there are two at headquarters, 
 and the greatest distance that they are apart is five 
 miles and a quarter, except the subdivision. 
 
 1612. Are there separate funds for those corps ? 
 — It is entirely an administrative battalion, and each 
 company manages its own finances. 
 
 1613. I suppose that each corps has its own 
 rifle range ? — The two companies at head quarters 
 have one between them ; I believe it is in contemp- 
 lation that they should have two separate rifle ranges, 
 but not having been made into one command under 
 a captain-commandant, and the two corps being com- 
 posed of different classes of men, they both clash in 
 spirit and the discipline is rather different. It has 
 been contemplated to divide them altogether, unless 
 they were brought entirely together, which they do not 
 seem to wish at present, but which is most desirable. 
 
 1614. Have you any battalion fund ? — We have no 
 battalion fund; this is under the heads of C, D., E., 
 and F. in the printed questions addressed to officers 
 commanding battalions, and I think the first head is 
 with reference to the rent paid for headquarters. My 
 
 principle on starting was to make the whole machinery 
 of the battalion as simple and as economical and as un- 
 cnmbersome as possible. With regard to the adjutant, 
 we require no headquarters, for the real use of them 
 would bo to summon prisoners, to conduct the routes, 
 and all that sort of business, and therefore we require 
 no headquarters beyond a place to write letters in ; 
 the adjutant had a house to live in, and therefore I 
 concluded that the best thing was for him to write the 
 letters in liis own house, so that he kept all the bat- 
 talion papers and books in his own house. Each 
 corps had enough to do to meet its own expenses, and 
 a few casual battalion expenses arc met by me, or as 
 they best may. 
 
 1615. Is he paid a higher sum than what he 
 receives from Government ? — Nothing more ; then 
 with regard to the furniture at headquarters, the 
 room that he wrote his letters in was simply a small 
 closet, and he only wanted a table and some drawers 
 to hold the papers. As to printing, stationery and post- 
 age, there was an allowance of 4/. for every company, 
 which was received, and which in the army is de- 
 voted to that purpose ; I concluded that that was the 
 simple way instead of calling upon him or the other 
 officers to pay for it ; it more than amply covered 
 the whole of the printing, stationery, and postage. 
 The printing will not be required again for a long 
 time, the postage was marked down as it took place ; 
 it was only the adjutant's, and it has not amounted to 
 the sum allowed by the Government, so that the 
 adjutant sustained no loss ; I considered that it was not 
 to be made a gain of but to be spent for the service. 
 
 1616. (Viscount Hardinge.) Was the 4/. per com-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 77 
 
 pany totally independent of the Government allow- 
 ance for stationery ? — No, the Government allowed 
 that, and that more than covered it. I concluded 
 that the adjutant was not supposed to make a profit 
 out of it, but he was to spend it in the correspondonco 
 of the battalion, — I <lefray my own postage with head- 
 quarters, and each corj)s defrays its own expenses of 
 correspondence with headquarters, — but all that went 
 tlirough him. I concluded that paper and everything 
 were to be found by him. Then with regard to batta- 
 lion drill, I found that the Ave companies existed under 
 a diftercnt condition as to standing orders, and every- 
 thing of that sort ; my idea was a standing order to 
 bring them under one system, and I got flie officers 
 together and explained f<i them my wishes, but I 
 found that they all existed under such diflcrent con- 
 ditions that if I was to establish one system and i.ssuc 
 one kind of standing order the result would be that 
 it would not bo obeyed, therefore I thought that the 
 wisest thing to do was to make everything as simple 
 as possible. 1 found that it was probably the best 
 plan to make each captain interested in his own com- 
 pany, as each company drew its funds from diflerent 
 sources. In two cases there were two noblemen, one 
 Lord Elcho's father, who almost entirely supported 
 one corps, and Lord Twecddale, who was very ranch 
 in the same position. Another corps consisted of 
 men who supported themselves ; the two remaining 
 companies were supported, not by any one individual, 
 but by many individuals in their locality, very much 
 by their officers, in both cases the officers were not 
 persons of great social position, but very respectable 
 liersons. One was a fiirmer paying a large rent, but 
 who lived by his farm, another was in a large seed 
 business, which, in an agricultural district, is a good 
 business, but he was a merchant. Those people 
 had spent large sums upon their corps, and I con- 
 cluded that the best thing was to lay down very 
 broad rules for them, and to suggest to them what 
 was the right discipline to carry on but to leave it 
 in a certain degree to the discretion of each officer as 
 to how he managed bis company, taking care to 
 assure myself that the War Office orders were carried 
 out strictly ; the general system was one that could 
 be assimilated with the army system. There is a 
 certain amount of orderly duty carried on in each 
 company, in one company by officers, in another com- 
 pany by non-commissioned officers when the subaltern 
 officers live far from headquarters. 
 
 1617. With regard to the inspection of the arms, 
 and seeing that they are kept in a dry jdace, and 
 properly cleaned, do you hold the captain of a com- 
 pany solely responsible for that ? — lie has a distinct 
 order upon that subject, a standing order, but it is 
 unequally carried out, but in each company there 
 is an inspection every month ; the officer whose 
 charge it is to look after that sends in a report, or 
 rather it is written down in a book, and at the end 
 of the month he hands over everything with an in- 
 ventory to the other subaltern, who, in his turn, does 
 the same duty, and inspects the arms of those men 
 who have leave to carry them away from headquarters, 
 which is a thing, however, that I do not encourage, 
 for I do not think that it conduces to discipline. In 
 other companies, where the officers live far from 
 headquarters, I find that they cannot do that ; I say 
 to the captains " You must carry out the same 
 " system," but they put it into the hands of the 
 non-commissioned officers. 
 
 1618. Each company, I presume, has an armoury ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1619. What pi'oportion of the arms in each com- 
 pany are kept in the armoury, and what proportion 
 of them are kept in the private residences of the 
 men ? — In No. 1 company, which is composed of 
 men of independent means, they are almost all, with 
 hardly any exception, kept in their own houses ; in 
 No. 2 company, which is a company composed en- 
 tirely of agricultural labourers, principally foresters 
 of Lord Tweeddale, they are kept in the armoury, 
 and uo arms can be in better order. In No. 3 
 
 com))any also, at lieadqunrfers, which is composed 
 principally of mechanics and artizans, and where the 
 discipline is more strict than in No. 1 in the same 
 locality, there tlie same care is taken as the captain 
 insists upon their l)cing kept in store ; the result is 
 that tlieir arms are in better order tlian in No. 1 
 company, which is composed of a higher class of 
 men. 
 
 1620. How often arc the arms of No. 1 company 
 insjiected ? — -I cannot tell you now, but the first 
 thing I shall do when I get back will be to examine 
 the books to which I have referred ; they are in- 
 spected two or three times a month, but it is only 
 lately that I have established this order ; the AVar 
 Office order was enough to start with, but it was not 
 acted upon sufficiently by each commanding officer, 
 and therefore I backed it up with a distinct bat- 
 talion order, and now they either ilo what they are 
 ordered to do, or they neglect what is ordered ; if 
 they neglect it I shall report it at once to the field 
 officer who is the assistant inspector of the district ; 
 .at the same time I find a general anxiety to carry out 
 instructions when made clear. 
 
 1621. Is there not great difficulty in getting tlin 
 arras properly inspected in such a case .as that of 
 No. 1 company, in which a man may not be a good 
 attendant at drill, and his rifle cannot bo inspected 
 unless he brings it to headquarters and appears ou 
 parade ? — Since the order w.as given the plan has been 
 that the subaltern should name one or two diiys on 
 which he would inspect the arms of the men who had 
 leave to keep them at home, and if they did not appear 
 on ])arade on one of those days, when he made out his 
 report at the end of the mouth he named those men 
 as not having produced their arms, and if the next 
 month the same men did not produce their arms, 
 then I instructed the captain to withdraw the per- 
 mission to take them home from them, and told him 
 that if I found he had not done so, I should perhaps 
 take from him the power of giving the permission. 
 
 1622. [Chairman.) The captain is solely responsi- 
 ble for the arms being kept in proper order ? — Yes, 
 but I make his subalterns responsible to him. I may 
 mention that I obtained permission from the War 
 Office to retain the command of a company in a 
 different county, which would otherwise have fallen 
 entirely oil" for want of a gentleman to lead them. 
 
 1623. ( Viscotint Hard'uige.) What do you pay for 
 your armouries ? — From 21. to 3/. a year. 
 
 1624. {Sir A. CamphcU.') In the case of the 
 companies whose arms are kept in store are they 
 cleaned by the men ? — The arms are in that case 
 taken charge of by the serjeant-instructor, but when 
 the men go out to shoot for their classification, or for 
 private practice, they are expected after that to 
 clean their own arms, but they do not do it quite so 
 well as the serjeant-instructor, he puts a little oil 
 upon them afterwards. Then there are other men, 
 artizans, who can only just get time to shoot late in 
 the evening, and they have not time to clean them 
 afterwards, and they would rust, and so the serjeant- 
 instructor cleans them, and when he is on good terms 
 with a company there is no difficulty about it. 
 
 1625. Does he receive any extra allowance for that 
 beyond the Government pay ? — Yes, he gets house 
 rent in Berwickshire, we give him for house rent 61. 
 annually, and also for uniform. 
 
 1626. He receives nothing for keeping the arms in 
 order? — All the materials are found for him ; he gets 
 10/. a year, and he has to appear in uniform and to 
 lodge himself. 
 
 1627. Do you find that tho Government Serjeants 
 are generally well satisfied ? — Yes, all but one man 
 who came to me one day to complain, that he had 
 too much to do. I threatened to report this man, and 
 explained the War Office instructions. The man was 
 silenced, and appeared to regret what he had said, 
 and afterwards to bo quite contented, and to realize 
 that he has no more than proper duties to perform. 
 
 1628. Does your adjutant receive any extra allow- 
 ance beyond Government pay ? — Nothing. 
 
 L 3 
 
 Muj. G. 
 Warrender, 
 
 6 June 1862.
 
 78 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. G. 
 Warrender. 
 
 6 June 1862. 
 
 1629. Do you think that the Government pay i.s 
 sumcieut generally speaking ? — For the class of men 
 who are best adapted for an administrative battalion 
 I think it is ; I think that the best class of non-com- 
 missioned officers are the best men. The adjutant of the; 
 Haddington battalion was colour-serjeant of the com- 
 pany that I was with, and after I exchanged into the 
 Guards he became serjeant-major in the regiment for 
 five years ; he was then discharged with an excellent 
 pension and went into a militia regiment. I re- 
 commended him to Lord Twoeddale, the lord lieu- 
 tenant of the county, who named him to the War 
 Office ; there was an advantage in having such a 
 man, he was perfectly satisfied with the pay, and 
 he was willing to make himself useful at head- 
 quarters ; if not absent with one of the other corps 
 they never drill without his being present, and as he 
 was a serjeant-major he understands squad drill better 
 than any officer ; he takes charge of the men and 
 brings then on in drill in a manner that no gentleman 
 who had never been a non-commissioned officer could 
 hardly undertake to do. 
 
 1630. Have you never found any disinclination on 
 the part of the captains to fall in under the adjutant 
 when he inspects them, and you are not on parade ? 
 — I have made it clear that the adjutant's visits are 
 not inspections, and on taking command of the bat- 
 talion I said that until I made a change I considered 
 them all under instruction, and therefore at drill they 
 fall in. 
 
 1631. Do you think that an adjutant who has been 
 appointed from the ranks would have the same autho- 
 rity over commissioned officers as an adjutant taken 
 from officers in the lino would have ? — I should not 
 desire that the adjutant should have any authority 
 over the captains ; he could not have, he is of inferior 
 rank, and I have always put the captain in as high a 
 position as possible. 
 
 1632. But there is such a thing as adjutant's drill ? 
 — Yes ; I think that such men as I describe require 
 to be very carefully chosen ; I do not think as a rule 
 that atiy serjeant-major would do, but I think that 
 there are men, and a sufficient number of them pro- 
 bably for administrative battalions ; I do not speak 
 of a consolidated battalion, the case there may be 
 different. 
 
 1633. With regard to battalion drill, I presume 
 that each company being only five miles from head- 
 quarters, there is no difficulty in getting them together? 
 — There is great difficulty. 
 
 1634. When they attend battalion drill do they, 
 generally speaking, marcli in those five miles ? — Yes, 
 but when they come they have generally done a hard 
 day's work beforehand. Those at headquarters only 
 march in about half a mile, but those who are at out- 
 quarters generally come in farm carts. 
 
 1635. How is the hire of those carts and the rail- 
 way fares paid for ? — That is all arranged by the 
 officers of each corps, out of their own finances ; in 
 the case of two companies the carts belong to Lord 
 Tweeddale and Lord Wemyss. 
 
 1636. Are those expenses paid by the volunteers 
 themselves, or are they paid by the finance committee? 
 — By the finance committee, I apprehend. 
 
 1637. Do the expenses come out of the captain's 
 pocket in an}' way ? — In a great degree ; when a 
 captain is a farmer ho has a certain number of carts, 
 and he sends those carts in, they do not cost positive 
 hard money, but he bears the expense ; in the case 
 of Lord Wemyss's company, I suppose that his Lord- 
 ship's carts are used, and in the case of Lord Tweed- 
 dale's company the same. 
 
 1638. Who pays the railway fares ? — They arc 
 paid either Ijy the officers, or by some small subscrip- 
 tion from the men. 
 
 1639. (Lord Elcho.) Do you know what the 
 strength of the force in the county is ? — There is a 
 company of artillery in addition to the battalion of 
 rifle volunteers, but I think the rifle volunteers, 
 officers included, numbered last quarter about 407 or 
 408. 
 
 1640. Was there not a county fund raised at the 
 commencement of the movement to establish this 
 county force ? — Yes. 
 
 1641. Did the sum so raised amount to 800if. ? — 
 About that. 
 
 1642. That has been expended has it not ? — Yes. 
 
 1643. And a further sum of 200/. has been raised 
 by the county ? — Yes, for the current year. 
 
 1644. The sums so raised have been expended ; the 
 800/. in the clothing required for a very large part of 
 that force ? — None of this sum was exjiended in 
 clothing I bi'lieve, but in targets, drill instruction, and 
 articles of military equipment, exclusive of clothing. 
 When men did not clothe themselves, funds for the 
 purpose were procured from friends and liberally 
 disposed persons in the neighbourhood. 
 
 1645. The sum of 200/. has been raised to meet 
 incidental expenses exclusive of clothing in this cur- 
 rent year ? — Yes. 
 
 1646. Of the force so raised what portion of it is 
 self-supporting, that is to say, which has within itself 
 the means of finding whatever sum of money is re- 
 quired for incidental expenses, and to renew the uni- 
 forms ?— I do not suppose that there are above 100. 
 
 1647. There was an inquiry in the county into this 
 subject, was there not ? — Yes. 
 
 1648. Did not the result of that inquiry show that 
 out of betAveen 500 or 600 men there were only 100 
 who were self-supporting ? — About that number. 
 
 1649. By self-supporting I mean finding their own 
 clothing, and providing the necessary amount to meet 
 all the incidental expenses of the company or the 
 corps, such as an orderly room, a place for a rifle 
 range, and such like expenses ? — Yes, after the re- 
 ceipt of the assistance in kind which the Government 
 already affiird. 
 
 1650. You have stated that you command a com- 
 pany in Berwickshire, can you speak at all as to the 
 position of the force in that county, and whether it 
 is in the same condition as the force in the county 
 where you command an administrative battalion ? — 
 It is very much the same on the whole ; there are 
 two companies that are composed of quite as low a 
 class of men, if not lower, than any two in Had- 
 dingtonshire ; on the other hand there is none that is 
 quite so self-supporting as that one in Haddington, 
 which entirely supports itself. 
 
 1651. You mean the artizans and labourers ? — No ; 
 I mean there is none which supports itself so much as 
 the No. 1, Haddington company. I think that there 
 are three which support themselves more than any 
 other company in Haddingtonshire, with the exception 
 of No. 1. On the average, it is very much the same. 
 
 1652. No. I in Haddington is composed, is it not, 
 chiefly of clerks of merchants ? — Yes. 
 
 1653. Even in that company there has been some 
 difficulty in getting the subscriptions, has there not ? 
 —Yes, there has ; but at the same time one of them 
 casually told me the other day that they were in 
 doubt whether they would accept their portion of the 
 200/. which you alluded to just now, or whether they 
 would not let it go to the other company. I believe 
 that their pride was a little piqued by some questions 
 that were asked them. 
 
 1654. Speaking generallj' of the battalion which 
 you command, is it your opinion that, unless assist- 
 ance of some kind is given, whether by the Govern- 
 ment or from any other source, that battalion will 
 fall away ? — As a battalion, undoubtedly. 
 
 1655. lias it not the means of self-support in itself ? 
 — Distinctly not. 
 
 1656. From the knowledge which you have of the 
 different companies in Berwickshire, are they prac- 
 tically in the same position as the battalion which 
 you command ? — I think that, if you struck an ave- 
 rage, they might do a little more for themselves ; but 
 it is clear that they could not support a battalion in 
 Berwickshire if they received no aid. 
 
 1657. Is there any extraneous system established 
 in Berwickshire ? — Yes, for one year ; and it is un- 
 derstood that, in all probability, if the volunteers get
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 ry 
 
 no other aid, they might go on with it ; and it was 
 done with a, view of not letting tho thing go down 
 with ,1 crash, whicli it was apprehended that it 
 would. 
 
 1658. Will you be kind enough to state what that 
 system is ? — That system is a voluntary assessment 
 on the total rental of the county. I tiiiiik it is two- 
 twelfths of a penny ; and the result has been that 
 each eomnianning officer has been allowed to draw 
 from this fund for the current year the amount of 
 lOs. Gd. per eftective volunteer. \Vc sent in a return, 
 and struck out of tho return those that were non- 
 eifective, and they gave us the sum of 10*. 6d. per 
 eiFective volunteer. 
 
 16.59. You say by a voluntary assessment; by that 
 you mean, do you not, an assessment upoti the rental 
 of each individual ? — Yes, upon every person down 
 to an income of 100/. a year. 
 
 1660. Does each individual contribute in proportion 
 to his income whatever is required to maintain these 
 companies ? — I believe that there was one of our 
 friends who declined to do so on principle. 
 
 1661. One who refused ? — I allude to Lord Pol- 
 warth. He refused on principle, and I think some 
 other very small proprietors did the same ; but I 
 think, on the whole, the assessment produced more 
 tlian was expected by a few pounds. 
 
 1662. Was any similar proposition made in the 
 county in which you command a battalion ? — There 
 was an inclination to do so, but it did not come to a 
 positive proposal ; there was a decided feeling 
 against it. 
 
 1663. In that couuty there was an objection to a 
 volunt.ary assessment ? — Yes, principally on the part 
 of the large proprietors ; they did not wish to close 
 their purses, but they objected to tlie mode of 
 doing it. 
 
 1664. But they readily raised, as a temporary ex- 
 pedient, 200/. to meet the necessary expenses, did 
 they not ? — Yes, and there was a proprietor of the 
 county of Haddington who would have had to give 9/. 
 as an assessment, which he objected to, but he gave 
 25/. as a contribution. 
 
 1665. (C/iairman.) The case of your Haddington 
 battalion is rather an exception, is it not ? — The 
 case of my company that I have in Berwickshire is 
 much the same also, and I know more about that 
 than of the others, not having anything properly to 
 do with the finances of the others. This corps has 
 been almost entirely maintained by vSir Hugh Camp- 
 bell, my father-in-law ; he has spent, I believe, 
 upwards of 300/. upon this company, both directly 
 and indirectly, but the idea has always been, when 
 the movement took place, that he was willing, as men 
 came forward, to assist them until the experiment 
 was proved, and then if the Government thought it 
 worth while to go on with it, he having kept them 
 going in the meantime, should feel that he had 
 done a good thing, and then if the Government de- 
 clined to go on with it, he should not feel called upon 
 to make any further exertions. 
 
 1666. {Lord Elcho.) Am I right in saying that 
 the inquiry which took place in the county of Had- 
 dington resulted in this, that it appeared tliat 500/. 
 would be necessary annually to meet the incidental 
 expenses of the force, amounting in numbers to about 
 600 men ? — I think it was about that. 
 
 1667. Exclusive of the assistance then given by 
 the Government, which included the Serjeants and 
 ammunition ? — Yes. 
 
 1668. The number being 600 men ? — No, I think 
 it was 450 men, including the artillery. I think the 
 force is now a little stronger. 
 
 1669. ( Viscount Hardinge.) It included your bat- 
 talion ? — -Yes. 
 
 1670. {Lord Elcho.) That estimate had reference 
 to the whole force, including the artillery ? — Yes. 
 
 1671. It came to something under 1/. a man, did it 
 not ? — I think so. 
 
 1672. Making no provision in that for clothing ? — 
 No. You will remember that we did not quite agree 
 
 as to the difficulty of getting battalion drills. You 
 thought that the men could march, and that if the 
 volunteers were men in sedentary employments, it 
 would b(! a very good thing for them ; but lo nuireii 
 five miles after a liard day's V/ork and then to undergo 
 a hard and long drill is a great deal to ask men lo do, 
 and indeed more than they will do ; they must got 
 some refreshment, and either they must pay for it, or 
 the officers must pay. 
 
 1673. {Viscottnt Hardiiujc.) How often do you 
 get your battalion together ? — Last year we got the 
 whole battalion together three times, and on two 
 other occasions we got portions of it together. The 
 whole battalion was inspected once by the assistant 
 inspector and once by the lord lieutenant. 
 
 1674. I suppose that some of the members marched 
 to the battalion drill ground ? — I think not. 
 
 1675. {Mnjor-Gen. Eyre.) You have five companies 
 have you not ? — Yes. 
 
 1676. Are they a con.siderable distance from each 
 other ? — No ; there is a radius of about 5^ miles 
 from headquarters, and there is one 16 miles off, but 
 that comes in by rail. 
 
 1677. They are some miles distant from each other? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1678. The district inspector and adjutant can make 
 their respective reports, if drill Serjeants are neces- 
 sary for squad drills ? — Yes. 
 
 1679. Has each company a drill serjeant ? — Yes. 
 
 1680. {Lord Elcho.) The subdivision has not, has 
 it ? — No ; but at the same I think that economy 
 might be effected in every administrative battalion 
 throughout the country on that score, by having one 
 instructor to two corps when circumstances .and dis- 
 tance permit, and giving a higher rate of pay to such 
 an instructor, but yet less than the pay of two in- 
 structors. 
 
 1681. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do you think that a 
 drill Serjeant is required for each company ? — Yes ; 
 unless the plan I have just mentioned was found to 
 work well. 
 
 1682. {Viscount Hardinge.) Will you be good 
 enough to describe the class of men who principally 
 compose the out-lying companies ? — They are almost 
 entirely agricultural, or else clerks and mechanics. 
 
 1683. {Lord Elcho.) Will you read from the 
 Haddington report the analysis of the corps as to 
 their professions? — " Lawyers', bankers', and mer- 
 " chants' clerks, 26 ; merchants and t)-adesmen, 94 ; 
 " mechanics and artizans, 205 ; laboui-ers, 89." The 
 mechanics and artizans are men who are very often 
 apprentices. The means of existence of a Scotch 
 apprentice to a wheelwright or to a blacksmith are 
 these ; he is apprenticed for so many years, and he 
 receives no pay whatsoever, but he gets some very 
 coarse food and lodging, and he has given to him a 
 certain number of days in the year for his own dis- 
 posal during the harvest, during which time he earns 
 what he can, and he requires what he earns to clothe 
 himself; it is a bare subsistence, even putting volun- 
 teering out of the question. But at the same time he 
 is made very amenable to discipline, and it keeps him 
 in early life rather steady. 
 
 1684. {Viscount Hardinge.) Do you think that 
 that is the sort of man you want 'i ■ — I have had 
 nothing to do with raising any corps. Wlien first 
 the corps that I had charge of was enrolled, I was 
 asked to take charge of it as they wanted a man who 
 knew something about it, and afterwards when the 
 battalion was formed in East Lothian, Lord Tweed- 
 dale offered me the command of it, and I found as 
 commanding officer that they were composed of very 
 good material. 
 
 1685. Are they not men who would very likely 
 enter tiie army or the militia ? — 1 am now spcaknig 
 from the experience I have had of my own company, 
 and they will not go into the army or generally into 
 the militia. I have never taken men from the militia, 
 but I have given men to the militia. 
 
 1686. These labourers are clothed, are they not, 
 out of the different funds of eacli company ? — In some 
 
 L 4 
 
 Maj. a. 
 
 H nrft'nder. 
 .Iiini; 1802.
 
 80 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. G. 
 Wttrreittler. 
 
 r. June 1862. 
 
 instances they are ; I believe tliat in tlie case of Lord 
 Wemyss's men and Lord Twceddale's men they were 
 siiLiiarly clothed. I do not know that money was 
 ever paid into the fund, but they were clothed by 
 their employers ; and in the case of my father-in-law, 
 he paid 200/. into the fund, iind it was spent by the 
 committee ; they were clothed to a very great extent. 
 I think that in" the case of my company in Berwick- 
 shire, 18 men clothed themselves, another 18 or 20 of 
 them half-clothed themsdves, and the remainder were 
 clothed entirely as I have described. 
 
 1687. Do those who have been furnished with their 
 clothing attend the drills as well as the other members 
 who are in a better position? — Better. I wish to 
 mention, with regard to non-commissioned ofKcers, 
 that I always prefer a non-commissioned officer who 
 does clothe himself, for I think he has more stake in 
 the company. Many of those men under the head of 
 mechanics are mostly married, or else they are ap- 
 prentices, and the latter cannot enlist. 
 
 1688. You have a subdivision in your battalion ; 
 that subdivision, I presume, according to the regula- 
 tions, has not a Government Serjeant ? — No. 
 
 1689. Do you not think that, situated as subdivi- 
 sions are, it would be a great relief to them if the 
 Government gave them a drill serjeant ? — It would 
 be a great boon to them ; but I think it would be a 
 great tax upon the Government ; it is 2s. 4d. or 2s. Id. 
 a day, according to the rate of the pension that a man 
 gets, and I think that that would be a great deal for 
 the Government to pay for a subdivision which is 
 considered an effective subdivision with 30 men ; it 
 would be paying more than 1/, a man even for a drill 
 instructor. In such a case the system of appointing 
 a belter paid instructor for two corps might succeed. 
 
 1690. Is it not a great tax upon that subdivision, 
 as compared with a neighbouring company, that the 
 one has a Government serjeant given to it and the 
 other has not ? — Yes. 
 
 1691. How does your subdivision obtain the ad- 
 vantage of a drill instructor ? — It is generally ob- 
 tained in this way : leave of absence is obtained for 
 a soldier, and he comes for a certain period and is 
 paid by them, and then he rejoins his regiment. 
 
 1692. Do you Iind that the subdivision is in as 
 good order as the other companies are ? — Yes ; they 
 happened to get the best drill instructor that we had. 
 
 1693. {Lord Elcho.) Is there any adjoining com- 
 pany or subdivision which might be joined to this 
 subdivision for the purpose of instruction ? — No ; the 
 nearest one is the .artillery ; then there is only the 
 county of Berwickshire, where there is no battalion. 
 If the men were put together, they must be attached to 
 the company there, which is about 12 miles off. With 
 regard to the expense of drill Serjeants, I should like 
 to state what actually occurred in the battalion ; and 
 this is a point upon which, I think, there might be 
 economy effected. When I first had the command of 
 the battalion, I found that the fund which has been 
 alluded to, and which the county had subscribed, had 
 been expended in finding drill instruction for each 
 corps ; each corps drew upon the lord-lieutenant, who 
 had the administration of this fund, for the funds re- 
 quired for their drill instruction. I inspected those 
 companies, and I was not entirely satisfied with the 
 progress they had made. Some had got an indifferent 
 drill instructor ; there were only five companies, and 
 on the aver.agc their instruction cost 51. a week or 
 20/. a month. I then called the officers together and 
 told them that I thought they might obtain better and 
 cheaper instruction, but that I should re<iuire them to 
 co-operate with me ; and the first step that I took 
 was to discharge all the men whom they had, with 
 the exception of one, who was a good instructor ; and 
 I engaged one other good instructor as well. One 
 man I made serjeant-major of the battalion, and the 
 other I made musketry instructor ; and those two 
 men travelled from one company to the other, and as 
 they did that, they received higher pay than the men 
 employed originally, so that I reduced the expenses 
 of the instruction to a little more than one-half, as 
 
 the travelling expenses came to not two-thirds, three- 
 fifths perhaps, and at the same time got better in- 
 struction insured, and also that each company was 
 instructed on the same principles and by the same 
 men. When the battalion was got together first, 
 there were only those two men and an adjutant ; but 
 they have all been instructed on the same ]irinciple, 
 and they have surprised me by the manner in which 
 they have worked together ; and I think that now 
 we might do perfectly well with fewer drill Serjeants, 
 at higher rates of pay, if we received some assist- 
 ance to cover the expense of a man to take charge of 
 the arms, and the cleaning of the arms, which the 
 drill Serjeants now do for the pay which they receive 
 from the Government. We get more drill Serjeants 
 in proportion than the consolidated battalions. 
 
 1694. {Lord Lh/io.) You get one per company, 
 and the consolidated battalions get three for eight com- 
 panies, do they not ? — Yes ; and I think that we could 
 do with fewer, at all events where the battalion is 
 not very large. If the Serjeants were reduced it 
 would positively be necessary ; indeed we could not 
 do without some allowance to pay some old man to 
 take charge of the armoury and keep the arms clean, 
 which the Serjeants have been in the habit of doing. £ 
 
 1695. Have you any suggestions to offer as to the 
 best means of supporting and maintaining a battalion 
 situated in the way that yours is ? — They must get 
 money ; they cannot get it from the counties, I think, 
 because the feeling seems to be that it was very well 
 to start the thing and to see how it worked, but now 
 that the experiment has proved successful, if the force 
 is worth anything they think it is worth the con- 
 sideration and support of the Government. 
 
 1696. {Lord Orers/one.) Does that feeling amount 
 to this, that if men volunteer their personal services 
 it is the fair and proper duty of the Government to 
 provide for the expense of keeping them in a state of 
 efficiency ? — That is their impression ; there may be 
 some men in each battalion who would prefer finding 
 for themselves. 
 
 1697. You think that it is the opinion of respec- 
 table individuals in the district with which you are 
 acquainted, that the volunteer force ought to be based 
 on that principle, that the volunteers' personal services 
 is sufficient to give on their part, and that the pecu- 
 niary burden ought to be borne by the Government ? 
 — That is distinctly the view upon which vSir Hugh 
 Campbell, my father-in-law, acted in originally sup- 
 porting these men, and having been mainly instru- 
 mental in equipping them, he thought that after that 
 it should be left, as you say, to the Government. 
 
 1698. Can you give any opinion as to tlie extent 
 to which the volunteer force could be maintained in 
 that district by voluntary assistance, founded upon 
 the opposite principle that the parties constituting 
 the force should bear the whole of the expenses they 
 incur ? — I think that in the county of Haddington 
 No. 1 company of volunteers would exist always if 
 there were volunteers anywhere ; but I think as to 
 No. 2 company that Lord Tweeddale, who has borne 
 all the expenses, would feel that if the Government 
 did not think it worth their while to continue the 
 thing, he would be absolved from any further obli- 
 gation. Company No. 3 could not continue. Com- 
 pany No. 4 (Lord Wemyss's) could only continue on 
 his lordship's liberality, and No. 5 could not, I think, 
 continue. The subdivision would certainly fall to 
 the ground, and in Berwickshire my own company 
 would immediately evaporate. There is no corps in 
 the county that is absolutely self-supporting ; it is 
 possible that Lord Home, who is a very liberal man, 
 might support a corps. 
 
 1699. You are of opinion, making allowances for 
 particular cases in which one individual mi"-ht do 
 a very liberal thing, that, as a general rufe, the 
 expenses incurred by the volunteer movement must 
 be borne by the Government ? — I think so. I think 
 that the force in East Lothian and Berwickshire 
 together amounts to 800 or 900 men, and that they 
 would probably not amount to 160 if assistance be
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION Of THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 81 
 
 not given, as where half the number of a corps falls 
 away that corps must collapse. 
 
 1700. Do you think that Government assistance 
 could not be rendered thoroughly efficient if conveyed 
 only in an indirect form, bearing a certain pro|)ortioa 
 of the expenditure connected with the force, or do 
 you think it should be a direct pecuniary grant plac(>d 
 in the hands of the commanding otHcers ? — If other- 
 wise than a pecuniary grant I suppose it would take 
 the form of clothing, and I think there would be a 
 great difhculty about clothing if given in kind ; men 
 might come and go, and it would bo a difficult thing 
 to deal with when a man was to get a uniform ; it 
 wouhl be almost impossible to work it. 
 
 1701. You are of opinion that the direct form 
 would be the most practical, and the most etlicient ? — 
 Yes, that is my ojiiniou, but 1 must admit that it is 
 opposed to the opinion of my adjutant, who writes to 
 me in these terms : — " If we are to have volunteers in 
 " the countrj^ they ought to be taken from all classes 
 " of the people, and clothed at the expense of the 
 " state. Clothing (not money) ought to be given, 
 " as I am certain the division of money would bo 
 " a great trouble to officers, and it would be sure to 
 " raise discontent in the force. There are many men 
 " in every corps who do not attend more than 24 
 " drills during the year, and many of those drills in 
 '• plain clothes, but allowing that he attended 24 
 " drills in unifoi-m, in four years he would only have 
 " attended 96 times ; say that ho attended four field 
 " days extra in each of the four years, that would 
 " make 112 times for him to bo in uniform durinsj 
 " four years. At that rate a suit ought to last eight 
 " years, but then the men who have attended double 
 " that number of drills would require new uniforms 
 " every four years ; then the men who did not 
 " require new uniforms would claim the cash, and if 
 " this was given it would be encouraging non-attcud- 
 " ance at drill." 
 
 1702. (Lord Elclio.) The writer of (hat seems to 
 be under the impression that the money would bo 
 given to the individuals? — lie thinks that it would 
 lu' handed over to the finance committee, and I think 
 that by the constitution of all rifle corps rules ap- 
 proved by the Government, there is to l)e a finance 
 committee ; but in my own corps I found that the 
 finance committee is of no great assistance to the 
 commanding officer. The responsibility rests on him, 
 and the administration of the funds should be in his 
 hands. 
 
 1703. [Lord Overs/one.) Can you express any 
 opinion as to what would be the necessary expendi- 
 ture per head in the volunteer force generally to 
 maintain its efficiency ? — I wrote down this morning 
 what I thought about that, in these terms. I should 
 propose that, whatever assistance may bo granted, 
 and which should not be less than ]l. per head of 
 effectives, be based on the minimum strength of a 
 corps, so that the corps may bo at least jwrfeetly 
 kept up ; whilst it may swell its ranks, if possible, 
 up to its maximum with such persons as may enrol 
 on tlie conditions of equipping themselves completely. 
 The simplest means of establishing the right of 
 dra\Ying the Government money by the commanding 
 officer, would be to allow him to draw according to 
 his return for the previous year on 1st August, and 
 to 'leave the administration of such money solely to 
 his responsibility and discretion. If cloth and accou- 
 trements, and not money, are issued, there will be a 
 difliculty in arranging its distribution, as men aro 
 constantly enrolling and leaving, and some are ef- 
 fective one year and non-effective another year. I 
 think that it should be imperative on scrjeauts to 
 provide their own uniforms, and therefore only .3.) 
 men should be drawn for. The 1/. a head should 
 be only drawn for 55 men, the three officers would 
 require nothing. Where a company is only 60 strong, 
 you ought only to have three Serjeants. 
 
 1704. Supposing the volunteer force of the king- 
 dom to consist of 150,000 men, do you think that a 
 subvention on the part of the Government to the 
 
 extent of 1 50,000/. would be sufficient for maintaining 
 
 that force in a state of efficiency ? — I think that it 
 ought to be done, but it would re(|uire economy and 
 care on the part of the otticers in many districts to 
 do so. In other districts it would give tiiom, pro- 
 bably, a considerable surplus. 
 
 1705. You think tliat the expense would, under 
 different circumstances, and in diffiirent counties, 
 vary ; that the sum might bo sufficient for some 
 places, but not sutiicient for others ? — As to my own 
 district, it would be barely sufficient ; but I tliii.k 
 that they ought to do with it. 
 
 1706. {I'isroi/iit I/iirdhiffr.) I gather from what 
 you have stated, that this capitation grant should be 
 expended principally in clothing ? — No, not entirely. 
 I suppose that the assistance which the Government 
 have alread)' offered, by enabling the clothing to bo 
 drawn at contract price, would not bo withdrawn ; 
 and if it was not withdrawn, I calculate that 10s. a 
 year should keep up a man's clothing. 
 
 1707. {Lord Orcrsfo/ic.) Upon the supposition that 
 I have put that 150,000/. were contributed by the 
 Government to support a volunteer force of the same 
 number, can you form any o]iinion as to what would 
 be the amount of pecuniary disbursements that would 
 have still to be defrayed from other sources ? — I think 
 that in the rural districts to which they belong it 
 would be such a very skimp allowance to get on with 
 that, they must get some assistance. 
 
 1708. What proportion would the 1/. a head bear 
 to the total expenditure ? — Probably one-fourth more 
 would meet all their expenses, except those of attend- 
 ing battalion drills. 
 
 1709. £150.000 in the case supposed you think 
 would be rather short of meeting all the expenditure ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1710. (Viscount Ilardinr/c) Supposing 1/. ahead 
 to be granted, should you propose to buy Government 
 cloth, and to issue it to the men to be made up by 
 their own tailors ? — Probablj' the commanding officer 
 would himself contract with some tailor at a fixed 
 price ; he would not allow the men to have the cloth 
 delivered into their own hands ; I should not advise 
 that. 
 
 1711. How would you get over this difficulty ? In 
 a case of illness or resignation the clothing would be 
 returned into store, I suppose ? — The course that is 
 pursued in my own company in Berwickshire is this. 
 When a man joins, there is a book kept, and he has 
 to sign the conditions under which he joins, that the 
 clothes are not to be his own until he has served a 
 certain time ; and that rule might be carried out still 
 further. 
 
 1712. But suppose a member becomes unfit for 
 service through illness, what would you do with his 
 clothing ? — He would become a non-eifective, and I 
 think that I would have his clothes put into store 
 during his illness. 
 
 1713. Do you think that you could get a man who 
 took his place to wear his uniform ? — Not in cases of 
 illness, but in cases of retirement from other causes, 
 frequently. 
 
 1714. (Sir A. Campbell.) You have stated that 
 you thought it would be better to make a requisition 
 with regard to the proposed grant on the returns 
 sent in to the previous August ? — That would be the 
 simplest machinery, I think. 
 
 1715. Would it not make it more easy to do if the 
 returns were made not in August, but later in the 
 year, say in December, so that the requisition might 
 be made at the beginning of a fresh year ? — Yes ; I 
 think it might do better, because a man might become 
 effective after August, as there are still long days left 
 for drill. 
 
 1716. Do you think upon the wholfe that the period 
 between January and December, is a better time to 
 judge of the effectiveness of a regiment than the 
 period between August and July ? — I think that tho 
 1st of August was an unfortunate day on which to 
 make our annual returns. 
 
 1717. {Lord Elcho.) Might it be advisable that 
 
 M 
 
 Maj. G. 
 Warrrnder. 
 
 6 June 1862.
 
 82 
 
 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. G. 
 Wnrrender. 
 
 6 June 1862. 
 
 the Government should give the accoutrements, as 
 they do the rifle. I do not mean to the individuals, 
 but to supply a certain number of accoutrements to 
 a regiment ? — I think that the corps would be much 
 more efficient with the Government accoutrements ; 
 ours are not at all satisfactory. 
 
 1718. {Viscount Hardinge.) You stated that there 
 was an artillery corps in your neighbourhood, do you 
 find that the recruiting for the one interferes with 
 the recruiting for the other ? — No ; in this case the 
 artillery corps is six miles from the nearest volunteer 
 corps, and they do not in the least clash. 
 
 1719. {Sir A. Campbell.) From your knowledge 
 of the force in those two counties do you think it is 
 desirable that the decision which may be come to on 
 
 the subject of this commission should be made im- 
 mediately ? — Yes ; they are rather in a critical state. 
 1720. If the decision were not arrived at before the 
 next session of Parliament do you think it would 
 have a bad effect upon the permanence of the force ? 
 — A very depressing effect. At present it is difficult 
 to obtain fit persons to accept commands and promo- 
 tion of the expenses and the humiliations of asking 
 for subscriptions. I wish to add that when I said 
 that .55/. per company would keep up a company, 
 I think that in all probability there would be 
 more than the strength of a company, as it would 
 encourage men who could pay for themselves to come 
 forward, and I think that the corps would get con- 
 siderably stronger. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned till Friday next at half-past 12 o'clock. 
 
 Friday, 13th June 1862. 
 
 PRESENT ; 
 
 Viscount EvERSLEY. 
 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 
 Viscount Hardinge. 
 
 Lord Elcho. 
 
 Mr. BouvERiE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. 
 Major-General Etre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 Major Harcourt. 
 
 Campbell. 
 
 A. Wetherall. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chaus. 
 
 Lord Lyttelton. 
 13 June 1862. 
 
 Lord Ltttelton examined. 
 
 1721. {Chairman.) You are lord-lieutenant of the 
 county of Worcester ? — Yes. 
 
 1722. Have many volunteer corps been formed in 
 that county ? — Twenty-one ; which, I think, for the 
 size of the county and its population, is very good. 
 Every town, and every populous district almost in the 
 county, has its volunteer company, and they are now, 
 all of them, full companies. One began by being a 
 company on paper ; but, after a short time, it became 
 only a subdivision. It has now again increased its 
 numbers, and it is a full company. 
 
 1723. Has there been no falling off in the volun- 
 teers in your county ? — No. 
 
 1724. Do you think that the present state of effi- 
 ciency amongst the volunteers can be maintained 
 without assistance ? — I think it is extremely doubt- 
 ful. I should be sorry to express myself too strongly 
 upon that point, but I think it is a matter of very 
 great doubt whether, as a permanent thing, the force 
 will be maintained as it is at present without further 
 aid. 
 
 1725. Have those corps hitherto been supported 
 by subscriptions amongst themselves ? — They have 
 been supported by subscriptions among themselves, 
 including the members of the corps generally, and by 
 very considerable contributions, although very un- 
 equal ; but, upon the whole, considerable contribu- 
 tions, from the officers beyond what the others do : 
 and by very handsome subscriptions from persons 
 resident in the neighbourhood of each corps : and 
 partly, but to no great additional extent, by a general 
 county fund. The general county fund would have 
 been, I think, very successful ; but the answer that 
 almost everybody gives is, " I am very willing to do 
 " what I can ; but what I can do, I do for the corps 
 " in my own immediate district." 
 
 1726. What expenses have been principally de- 
 frayed out of those subscriptions ? — That is a question 
 which I do not think I can answer very particularly. 
 Several of the captains could ; but my impression is 
 -this, that the subscriptions have been given, with 
 very little reservation or condition, by the subscribers, 
 to the commanding ofiicers of the several corps to do 
 what they thought was best with them. With regard 
 to the county fund, which I myself chiefly administer. 
 
 I have persuaded the subscribers, without the least 
 difficulty, to entrust that fund to the colonels of the 
 two battalions into which the county is divided to do 
 what they think best with it ; simply to diminish 
 the expenses which fall on the members for battalion 
 expenses. 
 
 1727. I presume that the money has been expended 
 on rifle ranges and headquarters ? — Yes, among other 
 things ; the local subscriptions. 
 
 1728. Has any part of the money been expended 
 in providing clothing for the men ? — No doubt the 
 local subscriptions were, in the first instance, ex- 
 pended to a very great extent in providing clothing ; 
 but the general county fund is too small, and I 
 do not think there is the least chance of providing 
 clothing out of that. The local subscriptions, which 
 were not permanent annual subscriptions, were either 
 donations or subscriptions for a certain term of years ; 
 there were very few subscriptions, I think, that were 
 given indefinitely ; they were either donations or 
 subscriptions for a term of years, and that they were 
 at first very largely applied to providing clothing I 
 have no doubt. 
 
 1729. Has this county fund been recently esta- 
 blished ? — Yes, very lately ; I could not get it up till 
 quite lately. 
 
 1730. At present you cannot say much as to the 
 purposes to which it has been devoted ? — We have 
 only had it for one year ; during that time I can 
 say how it has been applied. It was divided into two 
 sums of 110/. or 120/. a piece for the two battalions ; 
 being so small a sum, we thought that it could not 
 go to local company expenses, and it has been applied 
 to the expenses of the battalion drills, including the 
 expenses of locomotion at a certain rate, according to 
 the necessities of each corps and the distance that 
 they were from the place of meeting. 
 
 1731 . Have you heard much complaint made of the 
 diflficulty of bringing the distant companies together 
 to take part in battalion drill ? — I think very little ; 
 but it is owing to the public spirit and energy of 
 the commanding officers, who make no difficulty about 
 it. There is no doubt that it is a very considerable 
 expense and labour to bring them together, but I 
 cannot say that there have been any complaints.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 83 
 
 1732. Are the battalion drills generally well at- 
 tended ? — Very well. 
 
 1733. Can you suggest anything that you think 
 would tend to promote the elRcicncy of the riflo 
 corps ? — As far as I have been able to perceive, 
 there is no difficulty of any kind, except the expense. 
 I believe that in any event there would be very great 
 efforts made in my county to retain the force as it 
 is ; but there is some apprehension that there will be 
 difficulty in doing so ; but, as far as I know, it is 
 almost entirely on the subject of clothing. The 
 clothing is a considerable charge ; in my county it 
 suffered a good deal from heavy rains in the first year, 
 and in no great time, perhaps next year, or there- 
 abouts, the clothing will require to be renewed. 
 There is considerable apprehension, no doubt, on 
 this point, but I do not doubt that if nothing is done, 
 in the way of external aid, there will still be a very 
 great effort made to go on. The clothing is the chief 
 thing, but some apprehension is also entertained on 
 the subject that I mentioned just now, that the local 
 subscriptions were not promised for more than a cer- 
 tain time ; that time will be up this year or the next, 
 and it is a matter of doubt whether the subscriptions 
 will be renewed. But under both those heads I do 
 not doubt that there would be very considerable 
 efforts made to keep on, although there would be 
 much uneasiness felt on the jiart of those connected 
 with the movement. That is the only thing that I 
 think requisite, some assistance towards the very 
 heavy expenses which fall upon the members of the 
 corps. 
 
 1734. Those principally relate to clothing, do they 
 not ? — That is by far the chief thing. 
 
 1735. Hitherto the volunteers have been wholly or 
 in part clothed by the subscriptions which have been 
 contributed by persons in the different localities ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1736. May not those subscriptions be repeated ? — 
 I think there is great doubt whether they will be 
 to the full extent. There are great differences in 
 the companies ; in some companies every member 
 down to the lowest are persons of very fair means, 
 and several of my companies have clothed themselves 
 entirely ; they have gone to every expense ; but I 
 have no doubt that the great majority of them iiave 
 received great assistance from the local subscriptions. 
 
 1737. {Viscount Hardinye.) Should you say upon 
 the whole that the county fund has worked well 
 since it has been established ? — As I stated before, 
 it has been only established for a few mouths. We 
 raised a very fair sum, which has been appropriated 
 this year simply to the expenses of battalion drills, 
 and that will be a great relief. 
 
 1738. This fund is solely applied to battalion pur- 
 poses, such as meeting the expenses of the battalion 
 drills ?— Yes. 
 
 1739. But the money has not been spent for the 
 purpose of giving prizes at any county meeting ? — 
 No ; we have a clear feeling that prizes for shooting 
 should come about the last of the objects of such a 
 fund, because county meetings and shooting matches 
 are the most popular, and most easily met of all the 
 expenses ; it is a great feast day and amusement for 
 the whole county ; and we can, without the least 
 difficulty, get up such things. What the whole 
 body of the officers wished was that such a fund as 
 that to which 1 have alluded should be applied to 
 meet the regular working expenses of the corps. 
 
 1740. There are two battalions ? — Yes. 
 
 1741. Do you hand over a certain sum of money 
 to the commanding officer of each battalion to be 
 expended at his discretion ? — Yes ; the fund is ad- 
 ministered by a certain council, of which all the com- 
 manding officers and captains are members. We 
 propose to do this, to meet once a year, and receive 
 reports from the colonels, setting forth, as well as 
 they can tell, what the anticipated expenses, of each 
 corps under them wiU be during the twelvemonth 
 coming, and then to reserve an absolute discretion to 
 the council to appropriate this fund as they think fit ; 
 
 expen.'jc of at- 
 thu rural corps 
 ■It is a great 
 
 and what we have done hitherto has been to entrust Lord Lyttelton. 
 it to the colonels to be applied to the battalion drills. — '— 
 
 1742. They send in an estimate ?— Yes. '3 June 1862. 
 
 1743. Are they confined, to a certain degree, in 
 
 the appropriation of the money which they receive 
 
 by the instructions of the Council ? — Entirely. 
 
 1744. {Lord Elcho.) Those instructions hitherto 
 having limited the application of the money to b»t- 
 talion drills ? — Yes. 
 
 1745. {Viscount Hardinye.) Hsis there been any 
 difficulty in apportioning the money to each company 
 for attending at battalion drills, or has it been done 
 according to a system of mileage ? — The aid towards 
 the locomotion of corps would be given on a system 
 of mileage. 
 
 1746. In point of fact, is not the 
 tending the battalion drills one which 
 find great difficulty in meeting ? — 
 burden upon them, — to distant corps. 
 
 1747. Have you formed any opinion as to the 
 shape in which, if it is desirable to give further aid, 
 Government aid should be afforded ? — No, I have not 
 considered that particularly ; I thought that was a 
 question for the Government and for parliament; but 
 it is clear to me that there are heavy expenses, and 
 very doubtful whether they can be met without aid 
 if the force is intended to be maintained. 
 
 1748. Do you think that a direct capitation grant 
 would be preferable to the system which you have 
 sketched out, namely, that of each commanding offi- 
 cer sending in an estimate of the difi'erent expenses 
 from which he may wish to be relieved, or which of 
 the two would you prefer and think most practicable ? 
 — My impression is that the estimate plan would be 
 the best. I think that the estimate should be carefully 
 and fully framed, so that whoever had the adminis- 
 tration of any fund might be able to judge fairly of 
 it, and see that it was a satisfactory one ; and that 
 a full account should be rendered of how the fund 
 had been applied. I should always be in favour of 
 giving large discretion to the commanding officer as 
 to the application of it. 
 
 1749. You would, I presume, object to placing a 
 considerable sum of money in the hands of a com- 
 manding officer to be spent at his discretion ? — Yes, 
 at his uncontrolled discretion. I think that the 
 manner in which it is to be applied ought to be very 
 strictly defined. 
 
 1750. Is there in your county any rifle associa- 
 tion ? — Not in the ordinary sense of those terms, not 
 for prizes. If we laised a very large amount by this 
 county fund, we might so use it ; but I do not seethe 
 least prospect of doing that. 
 
 1751. {Lord Elcho.) What amount has been raised 
 by the county fund ? — It has been only about 230/. 
 in donations, and I think 70/. or 80/. a year. I do 
 not think there has been more. 
 
 1752. I suppose the greater part of the 230/. has 
 been spent ? — The whole of it has been appropriated 
 this year to battalion drills ; we have spent all we 
 had ; we mean to provide for the occasion each year, 
 and in each year to .spend all we get. 
 
 1753. Is it at all likely that you will be able to 
 raise by a county fund an}' such sum of money as 
 would enable you to maintain these corps, clothing 
 them, and meeting all their other expenses ? — No, 
 not the least ; not by a county fund as distinct from 
 the local subscriptions to each corps. 
 
 1754. Do you believe that local subscriptions are 
 likely to be obtained for each corps, so that in that 
 Avay a sufficient sum of money will be raised to clothe 
 and maintain those corps ? — I should have the very 
 greatest doubt of that, but I will not speak positively; 
 1 can conceive this, that when the local subscriptions 
 come to an end of their guaranteed-term, and when 
 the necessity for renewing the clothing arises, which 
 is by far the chief expense, then in the neighbour- 
 hood of each corps it will become a matter of serious 
 consideration, and 1 think that great ettbrts will be 
 made to repeat what was done before ; that is, to 
 raise, whether among the members of the corps or in 
 
 M 2
 
 84 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 13 June 1862. 
 
 Lord Lyttelton. ^jjg neiglibnurhoocl, wliatever may be requisite. I 
 have no doubt of that, and I think that in many cases 
 it might be successful; but I think it very unlikely that 
 in every case it will be successful ; in some I tliink it 
 will be matter of very great uneasiness and uncer- 
 tainty with those wlio wish to see tlie force a per- 
 manent one. 
 
 1755. Are the subscriptions in each corps paid by 
 the members ? — Yes ; I will not be quite certain as 
 to all, but I have no doubt that in a great majority 
 of tliem there are regular I'ontributions from them all. 
 
 175G. Are there many of the artizau class enrolled ? 
 — Tliere are a good many in the populous places, but 
 I think tlie smaller proportion of the whole. 
 
 1757. You perhaps cannot speak as to whether 
 there are many artizaus in Worcestershire, or as to 
 tlie eHect which volunteering has had upon them ? — 
 I can say pretty confidently that the artizans are the 
 smaller proportion. 
 
 1758. {Col. MacMio-dn.') Are there not at Kid- 
 derminster artizans ? — There is one corps there 
 which is almost wholly composed of artizans. 
 
 1759. {Lord Elcho.) What is your opiuiou as to 
 how far it is reasonable to expect these men to give 
 up their time and services, to pay their subscriptions, 
 and clothe themselves ? — I must confess that I have a 
 very strong opinion ujion that point. I think that in 
 reason and fairness there is no ground whatever to 
 expect any money contribution at all from the rank 
 and tile of these corps. I do not think that in strict 
 reason there is any claim on the officers, but I do not 
 doubt that the oiRcers, and I miglit even include the 
 non-commissioned officers, would always be willing 
 and would feel a jjride in contributing a good deal. 
 I should be sorry to see anything done as a direct re- 
 lief to the expenses falling upon the officers, although 
 I do not tliink that there would be any actual injustice 
 even in that ; but in my opinion, as to the privates, 
 there is no claim upon them whatever for any direct 
 money payment of any kind ; I mean such payments 
 as can be brought to account, for there must always be 
 expenses, actual money paid by the members of a force 
 like this, which cannot be brought to account. Be- 
 sides that it is obvious that to some of these men, 
 indeed in almost every case, their time is money, it 
 is not only time and labour which they give, but they 
 incur actual expenses. They are volunteers as giving 
 their services freely, and it seems to me that they 
 would be just as much a volunteer force if they were 
 not required to pay money besides. They are willing 
 to undergo any amount of danger, risk, and toil; and 
 besides that they must always be at an actual charge, 
 which must be estimated at a very considerable snm 
 of money, even if all the direct money payments were 
 taken from them. I think it would be perfectly just 
 if all their expenses were taken from them. As it is, 
 as I understand, there are several expenses taken 
 from them by the favour of the (rovernment and by 
 parliament, which I think is so far satisfactory ; but 
 there are several still left upon them, of which by far 
 the heaviest is the expense of clothing. 
 
 17(30. I think you stated that you did not anticipate 
 that this force could be maintained in your county 
 by private means, either by a county fund or private 
 subscriptions ? — I cannot sa}' more than I have said 
 before, that I should feel very great doubt about it. 
 Although great effort will be made, I doubt whether 
 it will succeed ; of course it will be influenced by what 
 is done elsewhere, and what may seem to be the inten- 
 tion of parliament, and the prospect of peace or war, 
 but in any ease I do not doubt that a great effort will 
 be made, although in any case, I think, it is doubtful 
 whether it will succeed. 
 
 1761. Do you think it is of great importance that 
 the volunteer force should be permanently main- 
 tained ? — Yes. 
 
 1762. ( Viscount Harding e.) Do you think it would 
 alter the character of the force if their expenses were 
 paid for them ? — No. 
 
 1763. You do not think that they would rather 
 approach to the character of a local militia, if all 
 
 their expenses were paid for them ? — No ; I do not 
 think so. 
 
 1764. {Sir A. Campbell.) Your lordship has ex- 
 pressed doubts as to the possibility of the expenses 
 being met by the different corps or their su])porters ; 
 have those doubts been entertained only recently, or 
 was there reason when the corps were originally en- 
 rolled to suppose that they could not permanently 
 maintain themselves ? — I think that those who con- 
 sidered the subject and looked forward to events had 
 sufficient reason to doubt that from the beginning, as 
 soon as we saw the nature of the expenses that must 
 be incurred, and their amount. 
 
 1765. Did you make any inquiries into that subject 
 before you enrolled any corps that applied lor eni'ol- 
 luent? — No ; in every ease the tirst thing that I did 
 was this, to ascertain the name of the proposed 
 commanding oihcer, and then I made him give me 
 his personal assurance, not as formally binding him, 
 but his personal assurance that he would undertake 
 that the corps should be maintained in a state of 
 efficiency, whatever the expenses might be, for a 
 certain number of years. I did not wish to make it 
 too specific ; the subscriptions were in many cases 
 given for a term of years, say three years ; but I 
 required a man of responsibility and character and 
 of some means, in every case, who should take the 
 command of the force, to give me his personal assu- 
 rance that he saw his way to maintaining the corps lor 
 a few years. 
 
 1766. Has your lordship any means of knowing 
 whether such precautions were usually adopted by 
 the lord-lieutenants of counties ? — 1 do not know 
 that. 
 
 1 767. Were no instructions issued from the War 
 Office as to the kind of men who siiould be enrolled 
 in companies ? — Not that I remember. 
 
 1768. Did you find it necessary to refuse the 
 eni'olment of any applicants on the ground of its 
 being improbable that they would be able to maintain 
 themselves ? — No, that has never happened ; there 
 may have been once or twice a little apprehension 
 that it might be so ; but in the way that we have 
 managed it it could hardly happen. I have never 
 had a proposal from any gentleman to form and or- 
 ganize a company which was not satisfactory. 
 
 1769. Practically have you had corps organized 
 through the officers, or have you had corps organized 
 first, and appointed the officers afterwards ? — It has 
 been done through the captains alone. I have looked 
 solely to the cajatains. 
 
 1770. ( Viscount Ilai'dinge.) You do not know 
 probably to what extent in the different companies 
 the captains have enrolled men who have not been 
 able to provide themselves with uniforms ? — I do not 
 know upon what system that has been done. I know 
 that in some cases the men have provided their own 
 uniforms, and in some they have not ; but I have not 
 exercised any official interference in that respect. 
 
 1771. In those cases where the men have not pro- 
 vided their own clothiug, I presume that the expense 
 has been defrayed by the local finance committee of 
 each corps ? — The finance committee of each corps 
 has generally administered the funds from whatever 
 source they came. 
 
 1772. Do you think it desirable in these rural 
 companies, which are not composed of v.-orkiiig men, 
 that men should be enrolled who cannot provide their 
 own uniforms ? — I do not see any objection to it, pro- 
 vided that those who undertake the responsibility of 
 organizing these corps will engage that the expenses 
 shall be met. 
 
 1773. But the men to whom I have alluded are not 
 exactly the stamp of men of which it was originally 
 intended the force should be composed ? — I do not 
 know how that is. I do not remember any instruc- 
 tions or limitations about that. We were told to get 
 volunteers as well as we could. 
 
 1774.- But it was always supposed that it was not 
 desirable to take men who might be available for the 
 line or the militia ? — I believe that was said ; but I
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 8.5 
 
 do not think it was ever oflicinlly brought before 
 me. 
 
 1775. I presume you -would object to any system 
 that did practically interfere with the recruiting tor 
 the line or the militia ?— Yes. 
 
 177(5. {L'teHt-Col. BarttelotJ) Are your corps all 
 dressed in the same uniform? — Yes. I had no 
 notions of my own upon that subject ; but I under- 
 stood that it was very desirable that the whole of 
 the force in one county should be clothed alike, or 
 nearly so, and in a very early stage of our proceedings 
 I called together the captains, and said that it was 
 necessary, before proceeding any further, tiiat the 
 uniforms should be agreed upon, which should be 
 binding, not only upon them, but upon all those who 
 came in afterwards ; and they agreed upon a uniform 
 which has since been enforced. The tendency of 
 the opinions among all the officers .and men has been 
 since that time, I believe, still more in that direction ; 
 so that, as to the future, I have laid down a rule, 
 although it is not in force yet, that the very slight 
 difference which was allowed to exist before shall be 
 abolished ; so that, ultimately, we intend to act upon 
 the opinion of the officers, that the clothing should lie 
 exactly the same throughout the county. 
 
 1777. Do you know the cost of the uniform ? — I 
 think it was somewhere between 3/. and al. 
 
 1778. {Sir G. A. IVcthcrnU.) May it not be a.s- 
 sumed that those who cannot afford to give their 
 time to drill instruction, cannot aflbrd to clothe them- 
 selves ? — I think so. 
 
 1779. Have you any idea of the proportion of the 
 men who have given a tolerable amount of attend- 
 ance at their drill ? — I cannot say with any accuracy. 
 1 am bound to say that I have heard frequent com- 
 plaints of the somewhat irregular attention which 
 has been given to drill. It varies according to ".ho 
 dift'erent periods of the year. 1 do not think that the 
 captains see anything very serious in it ; but they do 
 complain, and they have to whip up the men a 
 little. 
 
 17S0. Supposing that it was thought expedient by 
 the Government to grant some pecuniary aid, do you 
 not think that it would be well to regulate it by some 
 figure of merit, either by the numbers who attend 
 drill, or by the rifle practice, or some other test of 
 merit ? — I have not heard that suggested before, but 
 it seems to me that that might be a very excellent 
 suggestion, and that some such check would be very 
 desirable. 
 
 1781. {Major Harcoiirt.) With your present ex- 
 perience, do you not think that the volunteers might 
 very considerably reduce their expenditure ; is it not 
 likely to be less now than it was a few years ago, 
 from the experience which commanding officers have 
 had ? — I am not clear that it would be so; experience 
 might enable them to diminish the duties and labours 
 of the drill Serjeants. 
 
 1782. I am referring now particularly to the cost 
 of the uniforms ; are they not now to be obtained at 
 a lower rate than they were ? — I am h.ardly aware of 
 that, at all events I do not think it would make any 
 material difference, for, put the price as low as you 
 maj', the cost of the clothing is always a very serious 
 one. 
 
 1783. Do you suppose that if the subscriptions of 
 the privates ceased, and the accoutrements were pro- 
 vided by the Government, the men then could generally 
 provide their own uniforms? — I have very little 
 doubt that they would do so in the majority of cases. 
 I believe that it wouhl be done, but I would not 
 speak positively upon that point. 
 
 1784. Supposing that uniforms were found for the 
 men, how should you propose that they should be 
 given ? — That is a point of detail upon which I do 
 not think I can express an opinion that vi'ould be 
 worth anything. 
 
 178.3. Do you think there would be any difficulty 
 in getting the men to wear second-hand uniforms ? — 
 I should not expect so ; I do not think tliere would 
 be, if they were substantial and good. Still that 
 
 the men might have some feeling Lord Li/lielton. 
 
 13 June 1862. 
 
 may bo doubtful 
 against it. 
 
 17Stj. ( Viscount Ilardiniji.) With reference to the 
 expenses of the dilferent (•omi)anies, has not each 
 company a baud ? — Very nearly so, I believe. 
 
 1787. Do you think that these companies could go 
 on prosperously wiihout a baud ? — Yes, they could 
 certainly ; but tlu; band is a very popular tiling. I 
 would never for a moment advocate any jinblic fund 
 lor the purpose of defraying such an expense as that, 
 which is purely for pleasure. 
 
 1788. How are these bands supported in your 
 different rural companies? — Just like all the rest of 
 the expenses, out of whatever funds they have. I do 
 not think that they have a S))ccial fund for the bands ; 
 they have a separate item for them. 
 
 1789. You do not perluqjs think that you could "-et 
 rid of that expense, and however anomalous the state 
 of things may be you think that each company should 
 have a band ? — t think they would have it, unless 
 you actually prohibit it. 1 do not mean to say that 
 the companies would not go on without it, but I do 
 think that they would not like it. 
 
 1790. If they were prohibited do you think that 
 
 that would lead to a falling off in the numbers ? I 
 
 hardly think it would ; but I am confident that 
 nothing would stop it but actual prohibition. 
 
 1791. {Sir A. Catiipbell.) Do you think it is im- 
 portant that the decision of the Government with 
 respect to any relief which they might afford to the 
 
 volunteer corps should be come to promptly ? I 
 
 should hardly say that, i should say that "before 
 the end of next year it might be desirable ; but I 
 should not h.ave any appreiicnsion if it were post- 
 poned till next year. 
 
 1792. You do not think that it v.-onld affect the 
 ■numbers if the decisl.jn wore delayed ? — Not in my 
 county. 
 
 1793. (Eurlof Diicie.) Ihwo you found much diffi- 
 culty in getting efficient oflicers ? — There has been 
 a littlo more difficulty in getting olficers than in 
 getting men when we have got officers. I cannot 
 say that it has been a serious difficulty, but there has 
 been often some little difficulty and "delay in getting 
 officers ; in getting a captain, for instance, but very 
 seldom, perhaps once or twice ; and sometimes there 
 has been a little delay as to subaltern officers, and 
 perhaps as to staff officers, majors, and so on. On 
 the whole I should say that there has been a little 
 more delay and trouble in getting officers than in 
 getting men, but nothing serious. 
 
 1794. Of the officers originally appointed have 
 many left ? — No ; I think not many. 
 
 179.5. There have not been many changes among 
 the officers since the commencement ? — 1 should say 
 not many on the whole. 
 
 179ti. Have the oflicers complained of the expense 
 to which they were put ? — They hardly complain ; 
 but I think I have been fortunate in every way, in 
 the officers especially, for I have almost in every case 
 been able to obtain men having very fair means of 
 their own, and who were therefore not likely to com- 
 plain. They mention the difficulty, but they have 
 never made it a matter of personal complaint. 
 
 1797. Do you supplement the pay of your adjutants 
 from the county fund ? — No, wt' have not done that ; 
 the county fund was unable to meet it, and wo 
 thought upon the whole that it h.ad better be applied 
 to the battalion working expenses. 
 
 179.S. Have you any heavy expenses connected 
 with ranges ? — It is very unequal, but I think it is 
 not one of those cxjienses which press the most ; 
 there has been, on other grounds than that of expense, 
 very great difficulty in fjettintf ranges in some cases, 
 but that I apprehend is a dillicnity which is inherent 
 in the case, and can hardly be removed. I think 
 that in every case where a good range has been 
 available, the expense has not stood in the way. 
 
 1799. Have you had a central or county range ?— 
 No, not in any formal waj- ; they have not mot in any 
 fixed place. 
 
 M 3
 
 ^? 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTEP 
 
 Lord Lyttleton. 
 13 June 1862. 
 
 1800. Are there any heavy expen.se.=! connected with 
 the headquarters of the different battalions ? — No. 
 
 1801. {Major-Gen. Eyre.') Upon the whole, your 
 Lordship values the appointment of the adjutants as 
 they are now appointed ? — Yes, they are beyond all 
 value. 
 
 1802. They could not be provided from the officers 
 
 The witness withdrew, 
 
 of volunteers ? — No, that is totally out of the question ; 
 in any such force the adjutant is the baclibone of the 
 whole thing. 
 
 1803. {Lord Elcho.) Is the class of men who have 
 volunteered in your county of the same class as would 
 naturally go into the army or the militia ? — No, I do 
 not think they are. 
 
 Lieut.-Col 
 G. Briggs. 
 
 Lieut.-Colonel Geokge Briggs examined. 
 
 1804. {Chairman.) You command the 1st adminis- 
 trative battalion of the West Riding of Yorkshire ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1805. Of how many companies does your battalion 
 consist ? — Eight companies and a half. 
 
 1806. I suppose the establishment is 100 men per 
 company ? — Yes, that is the maximum number per 
 company. 
 
 1807. Are the companies full ? — They average 
 about 75. 
 
 1808. How often do you have battalion drills ? — 
 The battalion has two assemblies in each year, but 
 we have battalion drills with the four companies at 
 York every week during the summer. 
 
 1809. Are your companies situate sufficiently near 
 together to enable you to bring them all to battalion 
 drill ? — Those which are at Knaresborough, Harrow- 
 gate, Wetherby, and Ripon, are sufficientlj- near 
 together for wing drill, but we do not get all of them 
 together more than twice a year. 
 
 1810. {Viscount Hardi7ige.) How far are the other 
 four companies from York ? — They are in York. 
 
 1811. {Chairman.) The other four companies are 
 at some distance ? — Yes, the other four companies and 
 a half ; two are near together. 
 
 1812. How often do you get them together? — 
 They have been together twice this summer, and we 
 shall have them together, I hope, four or five times 
 more. 
 
 1813. I suppose there is railway communication for 
 them ? — Yes. 
 
 1814. The railway authorities, I suppose, take the 
 volunteers at the same rate as the military ? — Yes, 
 they are fairly liberal. 
 
 1815. Have you a battalion fund? — We esta- 
 blished one last year, which is beginning to work this 
 year. 
 
 1816. What does it amount to ? — 150/. a year. 
 
 1817. Is that subscribed by the officers and men of 
 the whole corps ? — There are contributions from the 
 staff officers of the battalion, and \2l. per company 
 throughout the battalion. 
 
 1818. To what expenses do you apply this fund ? 
 — Chiefly to the assemblies of the battalion, and also 
 to the expenses of the headquarters' office. 
 
 1819. Have all these companies separate funds of 
 their own ? — Yes. 
 
 1820. Are you aware whether the men have found 
 themselves in clothing, or whether they have been 
 assisted by local subscriptions ? — I think that in 
 every instance they have been assisted by local sub- 
 scriptions. The first company of the York corps was 
 entirely self-supporting, and found everything ; all 
 the others have been supported more or less. 
 
 1821. Have you any reason to apprehend, when 
 the clothing requires renewal, that there will be any 
 difficulty in renewing it ? — I think so, certainly. 
 
 1822. Do you think that the subscriptions will fall 
 off? — I do think so ; I think there will be a difficulty. 
 
 1823. Are the companies resident in York pro- 
 vided with a rifle range ? — Yes ; the York corps is a 
 consolidated corps, so far as it goes, and they have 
 one range. 
 
 1824. Your battalion is partly consolidated and 
 partly administrative ? — Yes. 
 
 1825. The consolidated corps has its headquarters 
 at York ?— Yes. 
 
 1826. Are all the expenses borne by the four com- 
 panies together ? — Yes. 
 
 1827. Have you an adjutant attached to your corps? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1828. Do you pay him anything more than the 
 Government allowance ? — No, nothing at all ; except 
 that he has a room at headquarters. 
 
 1829. You do not provide him with lodging? — 
 Nothing, except the room. 
 
 1830. Do you find that his pay is quite sufficient ? 
 — I do not think so. 
 
 1831. Does he visit the four distant companies 
 from time to time, and attend to their drill ? — Yes. 
 
 1832. Do you find any difficulty in inspecting the 
 different corps, particularly the distant corps ? — There 
 is no power of ordering a parade, and it is entirely a 
 matter of people pulling well together. 
 
 1833. 'There are, perhaps, a certain number of men 
 whom you do not see in the year ? — I see all my 
 corps. The only difficulty is in the York corps, and 
 that is not with reference to insjsectiou. 
 
 1834. Do you think that you ought to have more 
 power ? — I think that the position should be more 
 defined than it is. 
 
 1835. (Viscount Hardinge.) Will you be good 
 enough to state in what way you have any difficulty 
 in summoning a parade for inspection? — I have 
 never had a difficulty of that nature. The difficul- 
 ties have been those which have arisen from a dif- 
 ferent source. The commandant of the York corps 
 has been the principal cause of the difficulties I have 
 had to encounter. 
 
 1836. Have you any difficulty in ordering a parade, 
 say for the inspection of arms or the inspection of a 
 company, referring now to the rural companies that 
 are some distance away ? — None whatever vnth 
 regard to the rural companies. 
 
 1837. {Col. MacMurdo.) You stated that you con- 
 sidered the pay of the adjutant not sufficient? — Yes. 
 
 1838. Will you be good enough to state why you 
 think so ? — I think so because his work is more con- 
 stant, and more difficult in many respects than that 
 of an adjutant of militia or yeomanry, and his pay is 
 less ; he has no lodging money for one thing. 
 
 1839. {Chairman.) What is the pay of your adju- 
 tant ? — The pay of my adjutant amounts to 182/. 10s., 
 exclusive of 4/. per company for stationery allow- 
 ance. 
 
 1840. He receives 8«. per day, and 2s. for forage ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1841. Has he a horse of his own? — Yes; he 
 receives also 2s. a day for travelling expenses. 
 
 1842. Are you aware that a yeomanry adjutant 
 receives only 6s. a day, and 2s. for forage ? — I am 
 speaking more of the militia. I believe yeomanry 
 adjutancies average 300/. a year. 
 
 1843. ( Col. MacMurdo.) Will you be good enough 
 to state what instructions you give to your adjutant 
 with regard to the inspection of the several corps of 
 which the battalion is composed ? — He visits them for 
 the purpose of drill periodically, and whenever there 
 is a review or anything of that sort approaching, he 
 goes more frequently to them, and if necessary he 
 stays with them a few days. 
 
 1844. I observe by the adjutant's diary for the last 
 month, that the adjutant did not leave York from the 
 1st of May until the 30th, have you no systematic 
 rule by which you require the adjutant to visit the 
 out quarters ? — Yes ; he visits them certainly once 
 a quarter, but practically it amounts to more than 
 that. There must be some mistake, for the adjutant
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THK CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN (SREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 «7 
 
 left York, and proceeded to Harrogate on four dif- 
 ferent occasions, and to Tadcaster onco during May. 
 
 1845. There is one corps which is distant 9 miles, 
 another which is at a distance of 15 miles, and a 
 third which is 17 miles from headquarters, but if the 
 adjutant has a horse is it not possible for him to visit 
 them a little oftener ? — I may mention that during 
 the month of May, there was an investigation going 
 on in York which required his presence, and he was 
 engaged there the greater part of that time. 
 
 1846. Upon other occasions do you require him to 
 visit these out-quarters more often than once a quar- 
 ter ? — Yes ; during the summer months. 
 
 1847. (Sir A. Campbell.) Does the adjutant super- 
 intend any part of the musketry instruction of the 
 corps ? — Yes, and he has been to Hythe. 
 
 1848. Is the whole of the musketry instruction 
 carried on under his supervision ? — Yes, it is now, 
 since his return from Hythe, i.e., he exercises a general 
 superintendence. 
 
 1849. {Chairman.) How many men of your bat- 
 talion have passed through a course of musketry in- 
 struction? — I can hardly say without reference to the 
 papers, but the greater part of the effectives, I think, 
 have gone through a course of musketry instruction. 
 
 1850. {Sir A. Campbell.) I suppose that that 
 occupies a good deal of the adjutant's time ? — Yes, it 
 does. 
 
 1851. (Viscount Hardinge.) Do you give your 
 Government Serjeant any extra allowance for clean- 
 ing arms ? — Not in York ; but the terms have been 
 made by the commandants of the corps. I have had 
 nothing to do with the terms upon which the Govern- 
 ment Serjeants are engaged. 
 
 1852. (Chainnan.) Are they engaged by the com- 
 mandants of the separate companies ?— Yes. 
 
 1853. And paid out of the funds of the separate 
 companies? — Yes ; if any additional payment is made, 
 it comes from that source. 
 
 1854. (Viscount. Hardinge.) You do not know 
 whether they do receive any extra allowance for 
 cleaning the arms ? — I do not. 
 
 1855. (Sir G. A. JVetherall.) Is there a register 
 kept showing day by day how many men attend the 
 drill instruction ? — Yes. 
 
 1856. And the battalion drill ?-^Yes. 
 
 1857. How is the register of the target practice 
 kept ? — That is kept according to the form. 
 
 1858. Is that register kept strictly according to 
 the form ? — Yes. 
 
 1859. Do you depend upon the marker? — We 
 depend upon the instructor on the spot. 
 
 1860. (Lieut.- Col. Barttclot.) I suppose with the 
 exception of Knaresborough your adjutant can ride 
 to all the out places ? — Ripon is the farthest. 
 
 1861. With the exception of Knaresborough and 
 Eipon, can he not ride to them all ? — Harrowgate is 
 as far as Knaresborough. 
 
 1862. If he cannot ride to all those places, what 
 do you think would be the expense of his attending 
 on the average once a month at each of the out 
 stations, bearing in mind the 2s. a day which he is 
 allowed for travelling ? — He considers that every 
 time he goes to one of those places his expenses 
 average \L 
 
 1863. How many outposts have you ? — We have 
 five out-quarters ; the fourth is a subdivision. 
 
 1864. Then it would cost 5/. a month ? — Yes ; T 
 suppose so. My adjutant complains that the allow- 
 ance is not sufficient ; he considers that 2*. a day do 
 not meet his expenses. 
 
 1865. Do you consider that a certain mileage rate 
 for his travelling expenses would be better than the 
 the 2s. a day which are allowed him ? — He is nearly 
 always obliged to stay all night, and that entails 
 upon him a great amount of expense. 
 
 1866. (Viscount Hardinge.) For what reason? — 
 Because you cannot get the volunteers to attend the 
 drills except in the evening. 
 
 1867. When he visits these corps how does he go ? 
 By railroad. 
 
 1868. Do you mean tiiat he never can get back by 
 the train ? — He cannot get back after half-past six, 
 or some time of that sort. I know that there is no 
 possibility of his getting back. 
 
 1869. (Licitt.-Col. Barttclot.) Is the allowance of 
 4/. per company for stationery more than sufficient ? 
 — I do not think it is more tlian sufficient ; I think 
 that it about meets it. 
 
 1870. ( Viscount Hardinge.) With regard to the 
 returns made by each captain of the number of effec- 
 tives in each corps, I pi-csurae that you hold the 
 captain responsible for the accuracy of the return 
 which he makes to you ? — Unquestionably. 
 
 1871. You have no reason to sup])08e that any of 
 the companies are put down as effective when they 
 have not gone through their 24 drills ? — The difficulty 
 that I have had in the York corps has turned very 
 mucli upon that point. It was necessary to make an 
 investigation of the muster rolls, when it was found 
 that they had been very irregularly kept. 
 
 1872. (Lord Elclio.) Might you not have a volun- 
 teer who was thoroughly efficient, and yet who could 
 not be returned as effective according to the require- 
 ments of the Act, that is to say, a man who had not 
 attended 24 drills in the year ? — I think it is possible 
 that there might be so exceptional a case, but as a 
 rule I think he must attend that number of drills. 
 
 1873. I do not mean in the first year, but I am 
 supposing the case of a volunteer who has attended 
 24 drills, or twice that number, in the first year ; do 
 you consider that he could be passed as efficient with 
 a fewer number of drills than 24 in the ensuing year ? 
 — I think that he ought to have that number of drills 
 to keep him up to the mark. 
 
 1874. (Sir A. Campbell.) Do you think that from 
 the 1st of August to the 31st of July is the best 
 period that could be selected for making an annual 
 return of the effectives ? — I have hardly considered 
 that point. 
 
 1875. If the period were more coincident with the 
 actual year, from January to December, would not a 
 more accurate return be given of the state of efficiency 
 in each regiment ? — I have really hardly considered 
 that ; I am not sure that it would, possibly it might. 
 
 1876. At what period of the year do recruits 
 usually join ? — I think they usually join during the 
 spring and summer, so as to be in time for the shoot- 
 ing and the reviews. 
 
 1877. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Have you any system 
 under which the arms are inspected in the different 
 companies ? — The adjutant makes a point of seeing 
 the arms when he visits the companies, and I see 
 them when I have an opportunity. 
 
 1878. Has the adjutant had no difficulty in getting 
 those members of the corps who keep their arms at 
 their own residences to produce them for inspection ? 
 — I think not, as a rule ; there may have been one or 
 two instances. 
 
 1879. Do you think that you will bo able to keep up 
 your battalion, the rural companies and the town com- 
 panies, in their present state of efficiency without fur- 
 ther aid from the Government ? — I think that further 
 aid is required, certainly. I think that we require aid 
 in the shape of a battalion fund, for the purpose of 
 meeting the expenses of assembling for drill. 
 
 1880. In what shape would you recommend that 
 aid from the Government should be given ? — I think 
 that some small grant might be allowed for each 
 effective man in an administrative battalion in addition 
 to what is given him, or on his account, as a member 
 of a corps. 
 
 1881. What amount should you think would be 
 sufficient ? — I think that 5s. would do in my bat- 
 talion. 
 
 1 882. A capitation grant of 5s. ? — I think so. 
 
 1883. Do you mean for travelling alone, or to meet 
 all their expenses ? — I mean to supply the place of 
 the present battalion fund. 
 
 1884. You think that 5s. per head would be suffi- 
 cient to keep the battalion in its present state of 
 
 M 4 
 
 Lieut. -Col. 
 G. Briggs. 
 
 13 June 1R62.
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE C0M5IISSI0NERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.- Col. 
 G. Briggs. 
 
 13 June 1862. 
 
 efficiency ? — It would do as much as is done now by 
 our 1 50/. a year. 
 
 1885. Would you require nothing more ? — I mean 
 that the 5s. should be in addition to what is given 
 them as members of the corps, or as members of tho 
 battalion. 
 
 1886. But as companies ? — I think they would re- 
 quire more than that. 
 
 1887. Will you be good enough to state to what 
 extent you think the corps ought to be further 
 assisted ? Would you prefer that they should be 
 aided in kind, that is, by each captain sending in an 
 estimate of what he especially stood in need of, or 
 would you prefer a direct capitation grant that should 
 be given to the commanding officer for every eHective 
 man? — I think as a rule I should prefer money, 
 because the wants of the diilerent corps are so various; 
 what was desirable in one might perhaps not be so 
 in another. 
 
 1888. Would you propose that a capitation grant 
 should be given to each commanding officer in money ? 
 — I think that it must come through him ; I do not 
 see how else it can be applied. 
 
 1889. But the question is whether it should bo 
 given directly or indirectly ; whether he should send 
 in an estimate of what his corps required in the way 
 of clothing, ranges, and so forth, or that he should 
 receive a direct capitation grant to be expended en- 
 tirely at his own discretion ? — I am disposed to think 
 that a direct capitation grant, in proportion to the 
 number of etFective members in a corps, and to be 
 accounted for, of course, annually, would be the best 
 form in which to give assistance. 
 
 1890. Then what security would the Government 
 have that a direct capitation grant would be propeidy 
 expended ? take, for example, bands and other ex- 
 penses which arc thought by some to have been most 
 extravagantly incurred ? — I should leave the bands 
 altogether to corps subscriptions. 
 
 1891. {Lord Elcho.) AVould it not be possible, sup- 
 posing a capitation grant to be given to a commanding 
 officer to be expended as he thought most advisable 
 for the corps, to restrict that expenditure to certain 
 heads ? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 1892. Do you think it would be desirable, so far 
 as respects the discretion of the commanding officer, 
 that he should only so expend it ? — Certainly. 
 
 1893. You think that there would be no difficulty 
 in confining the items, whether for clothing, equip- 
 ment, or ranges, or any purpose for which they have 
 at present to find money, within certain rules and 
 limits ? — I think there would be none. I should 
 limit the application of the money to certain objects, 
 and I would limit the number of the men in the 
 several localities. 
 
 1894. {Lieut. -Col. Baritdot.) When you say that 
 the money should be entrusted to the commanding 
 officer, do you mean that it should be given to him 
 for each individual in the corps, or to you, for ex- 
 ample, as the colonel commanding an administrative 
 battalion ? — I mean to the officer commanding the 
 corps. 
 
 1895. Do not you think that you, as the colonel of 
 an administrative battalion, would be able to make 
 such a return of the effective men to the War Office 
 as should ensure that the money which you received 
 was properly applied, and only so far as those eflective 
 men went ? — I think that the money might be perhaps 
 better distributed if the order required the counter- 
 sign of the adjutant and colonel of the battalion, but 
 the commanding officer of the corps must be the 
 person who knows the actual wants on the spot 
 better than the commanding officer of a battalion. 
 
 1896. Do you not think that if tlie distribution of 
 the money was confined to the effective men, it would 
 put you in a better position with your battalion ? — It 
 would give me more power, certainly. 
 
 1 897. ( Chairman^) You would have an opportunity 
 of communicating with the captains, and of ascer- 
 taining in what way the money could be spent most 
 for the benefit of the corps ? — Yes ; but if that is done, 
 
 administrative battalions would require a different 
 kind of organization, for at present the field officer 
 commanding has nothing to do with questions of 
 finance. 
 
 1898. In the case supposed, public funds would be 
 supplied by the Government, and do you not think 
 that you, as commanding officer, would be the proper 
 person to whom those funds ought to be entrusted ? 
 — Yes, I do think so. 
 
 1899. {Sir A. CnmpheU.) If such a determination 
 should be come to by tlie Government, do you think 
 it is important that the decision should be arrived at 
 at once, or do you think that the matter will admit 
 of delay ? — I think that the sooner the cjuestion is 
 settled, the better. 
 
 1900. Do you think that delay will have the effijct 
 of diminishing the number of men in your corps ? — I 
 do not think it will for the present summer. 
 
 1901. {Col. MacMurdo.) You are increasing in 
 numbers, are you not ? — Yes, we have kept up our 
 numbers very well, and I think we are increasing. 
 
 1902. {Major Harcourf.) Do you think that some 
 assistance is necessary for the continuance of the 
 force ? — Yes ; especially in the rural districts. 
 
 1903. Is it not your opinion that a great deal might 
 be done in the different corps by reducing their ex- 
 penditure, considering the large amount of expense 
 which they have now to bear ? — They know their 
 wants better now, certainly, in every instance. I 
 have endeavoured to keep the band funds entirely 
 independent of the corps funds. 
 
 1904. {Viscownf Hardinge.) Supposing the private 
 subscriptions from the members to cease, do you 
 think they would be in a position to pay for their 
 own uniforms ? — I think that a considerable portion 
 of them would. 
 
 1905. Is it not very difficult to exercise any control 
 over the financial que.stions that come before the com- 
 mittees of the difl'erent companies ? — I have nothing 
 whatever to do with their finances as commanding 
 officer of an administrative battalion, except the bat- 
 talion fund which has just been organized. 
 
 1906. {Major Harcourt.) Suppose that the men 
 were provided with uniforms, should you find any 
 difficulty in getting them to wear second-hand ones ? 
 — I do not know ; I think so. 
 
 1907. ( Vi.sconnt Hardinge.) You have stated that 
 you do not think that the position of commanding 
 officers of administrative battalions is satisfactorily 
 defined ; can you suggest any amendment in that 
 respect ? — As it is now, I think that it is not clear 
 whether he is only to be a sort of occasional inspector, 
 or the regimental head. My own feeling is, that it 
 should be more regimental than it is at present. I 
 do not see why an administrative battalion should 
 not be on much the same footing as a yeomanry 
 regiment. 
 
 1908. {Lord Elcho.) You have stated that you 
 consider os. would be sufficient to defray the bat- 
 talion expenses ; 1 suppose you mean to cover brigade 
 and field days as well ? — Yes. 
 
 1909. What sum, in your opinion, would be re- 
 quired to defray the expenses of the different com- 
 panies, in addition to what they now receive ? — Our 
 present battalion fund was formed with reference to 
 that question ; the subscription from each company 
 is 12/., and the whole amounts to 150/. a year. 
 
 1910. You have stated that your battalion fund 
 was used to defray the expenses of attending at bat- 
 talion drills, but a farther sum you think is necessary 
 to keep uj) the companies themselves ? — Yes. 
 
 191 1. What sum do you think will be required per 
 head to keep up the companies themselves in addition 
 to the assistance which they now receive from the 
 Government ? — I .am disposed to think that a guinea 
 per head for each effective member would cover 
 everything. 
 
 1912. Do you mean clothing and everything.' — 
 Yes, if it were properly managed ; the clothing ought 
 to last for two or three years. 
 
 1913. {Sir G. A. Wetherall.) How many eflfectives
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 89 
 
 have you in your battalion, and wliat do you call nn 
 effective ? — A member who has attended 24 drills in 
 a year. 
 
 1914. Is a man who attends and odcs nothing an 
 pftective ? — No; I consider that a hian who attends 
 bond fide drill and musketry instruction an effective. 
 
 191o. (Lieiil.-CoL Jlart/elot.) Are tlie unil'orms of 
 your battalion all of tlie same colour ? — Yes, and they 
 wear the same description of belts, but they all vary 
 in the facings. 
 
 1916. Do you not think it essential that an ad- 
 ministrative battalion should be all dressed in the 
 same colour? — Yes, I consider it desirable and 
 essential. 
 
 1917. {Viscount Hardingc.^ If further aid is re- 
 ceived either directly or indirectly from the Govern- 
 ment, you must make the captains of the companies 
 responsible for the returns which they send in to you 
 as to the number of eHectives in their respective com- 
 panies ? — Yes, certainly ; I consider that they are 
 responsible now. 
 
 1918. They are no doubt so now, but I dare say 
 you are aware that irregularities have been found in 
 these returns, and tiiat members of the rural com- 
 panies have been returned as effective members when 
 they have really not gone through their 24 days' 
 drill ? — Yes ; and in the town companies also. 
 
 1919. And consequently under any new system the 
 most stringent rules would have to be laid down as 
 to returning men effective or non-effective ? — Cer- 
 tainly. 
 
 1920. {Chairman.) I understand yon to say that 
 you make a point of visiting all the distant companies 
 in tlie course of the year? — Yes. 
 
 1921. On the occasions when you have visited 
 them, have you found them muster well ? — Not so 
 well as I could wish. 
 
 1922. Have you found that li.ilf of the men borne 
 on the rolls on the average have mustered ? — Per- 
 haps a little more than that, — perhaps two-thirds. 
 
 1923. What security have you that the absentees 
 are properly drilled ? — I have no power to enforce 
 attendance. 
 
 1924.' You have no security whatever that those 
 who do not attend the company drills when you in- 
 spect them will be properly drilled ? — All that I can 
 do is through the adjutant; he looks after them when 
 he goes round. 
 
 1925. But supposing he does not go ? — He does go. 
 
 1926. ( Viscount Jlardiuf/C.) Can you explain in 
 what way the authoi-ity of an officer commanding an 
 administrative battalion differs from the authority of a 
 lieutenant-colonel commanding a yeomanry regiment ? 
 — The volunteer regulations say that the powers of 
 the officer commanding an administrative b.attalion 
 are given to him subject to the powers conferred on 
 the officer commanding the corps by tiie Act of Par- 
 liament. The officers commanding troops in a yeo- 
 manry regiment are like the captains in any other 
 regiment. 
 
 1927. Therefore when the yeomanry are called out 
 for their eight days' duty, they are under the Mutiny 
 Act, but in what other way do they differ ; the 
 colonel commanding a volunteer regiment on parade 
 has the same authority as a colonel commanding a 
 yeomanry regiment, has he not ? — Y^es ; but I do not 
 think he has any power off parade. 
 
 1928. {Lord Elclw.) They are independent of you, 
 are they not, until you get them together for drill ? — 
 Quite so. 
 
 1929. {Sir G. A. JVcthcrall.) Do you fliink the 
 volunteers would be better pleased if a stricter systeni 
 of discipline were observed than there is at present ? 
 • — I think they. would now. 
 
 1930. {Chairman.) Would it, in your opinion, bo 
 desirable that parliament should give to the colonel 
 of an administrative battalion the increased power 
 which you seem to think he wants ?— I think so ; I 
 think that the thing is unworkable without it. 
 
 1931. Do you think they cannot fairly be responsible 
 for the whole battalion unless they have that increased 
 
 power given to them ? — They cannot bo responsible 
 i'or tliem unless on ]>arade. 
 
 1932. {Col. ^fncMurdo.) To what extent wouUI 
 3'ou give an officer commanding !in administrative 
 battalion increased jiowers? — I think he should be 
 ])ut in the same position as the commanding officer of 
 a yeomanry regiment. 
 
 1933. A yeonuinrv regiment is called out for 
 training, but a battalion of volunteers could not l>e 
 called out for training without pay ? — No, but 1 
 think they should bo put ui>ou the same footing to 
 some extent. 
 
 1934. Will you define any power that you do not 
 now possess, but which you wish to have ? — I think 
 that the officer commanding an administrative batta- 
 lion should be more of a regimental hearl than he is 
 now. At present he is only occasional inspector, an<l 
 it is laid down in the volunteer regulations that 
 he has charge of the discipline ; and the question is, 
 what do you mean by discipline ? If an officer com- 
 manding an administrative battalion resides in the 
 same locality with one of his corps, is he or not to 
 allow gross irregularities to occur under his nose ? 
 
 193.5. You are aware that the regulations require 
 the officer commanding a battalion to see that the 
 regulations are carried out by those who are under 
 his command ? — Certainly, but when I did that I was 
 accused of interference. 
 
 1936. The meaning of it is, that if you see irregu- 
 larities occuring in a corps, you are to call the atten- 
 tion of the authorities to those irregularities ?— Yes. 
 
 1937. But you have no power yourself to correct 
 them ? — At present I have none whatever, and I think 
 that I should have. 
 
 1938. {Licut.-Col. Barttclot.) Do you not further 
 think that you should be able to give directions for 
 the course of drill instruction that should be pursued 
 by each corps under your command ? — I think so, 
 certainly. 
 
 1939. {Lord Elcho.) Have you at present the power 
 to lay down any system of drill which e.ach company 
 must obey ? — No ; I may l.ay it down, but I have no 
 power to enforce it. 
 
 1940. {Sir A. Cainphell.) In ease the systeni of 
 drill which you laid down were not adhered to, what 
 course would you take ? — At the present time I see 
 no power that I should have to enforce it. 
 
 1941. Y'ou would remonstrate with the captain, 
 but you could do nothing iiirther ? — I see nothing 
 further that I could do. 
 
 1942. {Viscount Hnrdingc.) The Government Ser- 
 jeants are under the authority of the adjutant, are 
 they not ? — Y'es, but the captains of companies order 
 their own parades. 
 
 1943. Have you known instances in wliich captains 
 of volunteer corps have not carried out the system of 
 drill which the adjutant may have recommended ? — 
 They may have done so at first, and they are very 
 apt to take the bit in their teeth now. 
 
 1944. {Chairman.) Have you any power to assem- 
 ble all the Serjeants of the different corps in order to 
 see that the men are all drilled according to one sys- 
 tem ? — I presume I may do that. 
 
 1945. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) Has each of your com- 
 panies got a Serjeant ? — No, we have not been aljlo 
 to get them for all 3'ct. Great difficulty is experienced 
 in obtaining them. 
 
 1946. {Licu'..-Col. Barttclot.) Do you consider 
 that you have full jiower to see when the battalion 
 assembles together that each one of your corps is 
 drilled according to the system laid down by you ? — 
 On parade I Iiave. 
 
 1947. If thev were not drilled according to that 
 system you would repi-imand not only tlie otiicer com- 
 manding, but you would call up the Serjeant as well ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1948. {Viscount Jlardinr/f.) Do you find |)raeti- 
 cally that the various companies do adopt a diflerent 
 system of drill ? — I cannot say that I have had any 
 difficulty of that kind. 
 
 1949. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you consider it dc- 
 
 N 
 
 Lieul.-Col. 
 is. liriyys. 
 
 13 .Juiiu- 1862
 
 90 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 sirable, in order to remedy the defects which you 
 have pointed out, that a new Act of Parliament 
 should be passed ? — I think it is absolutely necessary. 
 1950. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Your adjutant is also 
 rifle instructor, is he not ?— He exercises a general 
 superintendence, but each corps has its own instruc- 
 tor, i.e., a volunteer who has passed the course at 
 Hythe or Fleetwood. 
 
 1951. Does he keep a register of the target prac- 
 tice ? — In an administrative battalion it is stated that 
 the adjutant has access to these papers, and in a con- 
 solidated battalion that he is responsible for them. 
 
 1952. {Chairman.) Have you any further sugges- 
 tion to make to the Commission ? — I think not be- 
 yond what is contained in the letter which I have 
 addressed to you. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Lieut.-Colonel Douglas Jones examined. 
 
 1953. {Chairman.) I believe you are inspector of 
 the districts in Scotland ?— I am inspector of the 
 north-eastern division of Scotland. 
 
 1954. Have you been inspector of the whole 
 division, or only a part of it ? — At first I had the 
 whole, but afterwards it was divided. 
 
 1955. How many corps have you under your 
 inspection ? — About 153. 
 
 1956. Do you consider that they are all in an effi- 
 cient state ? — No. 
 
 1957. In what respect are there any which are 
 not efficient ?— They are deficient in drill and in 
 equipment ; they are deficient in drill in consequence 
 of want of proper instruction. 
 
 1958. Have they not Serjeants allowed them who 
 are paid for by the Government ? — Some have, but 
 not all ; Serjeants cannot be provided for all of them 
 at present. 
 
 1959. Do those corps which are not in an efficient 
 state and require instruction, form part of adminis- 
 trative battalions, or are they consolidated corps ? — 
 Some of them form part of administrative battalions ; 
 the consolidated battalions are better drilled. 
 
 1960. But they all have the advantage of having 
 an adjutant to superintend the drill, or occasionally 
 to visit them, have they not ? — Some of them have. _ 
 
 1961. To what do you attribute their deficiency in 
 drill instruction ? — They are all very anxious to learn, 
 but they have not the means of doing so, merely from 
 want of Serjeants ; some of them get Serjeants only 
 for two or three months in the year, from the 
 embodied militia ; and they get on gradually, but 
 they nearly forget it by the next year. 
 
 1962. Have you any suggestions to offer as to how 
 these corps would be better supplied with drill in- 
 structors ; it rests very much with themselves does it 
 
 not ? I have found that those who have the best 
 
 instructors are officers of the corps who have applied 
 privately to regiments to know when Serjeants will 
 be discharged, and they get by that means the 
 best instructors ; they have their own friends in the 
 army, and of course they hear a good character of the 
 men, and some have very clever and good instructors 
 indeed, but some have not. 
 
 1963. Is it not essential to corps of this descrip- 
 tion that they should have good instructors ? — Most 
 decidedly. 
 
 1964. They would be of very little use without 
 them ? — Of no use at all. 
 
 1965. In your visits of inspection do you find that 
 the musters of the corps are satisfactory? — Not 
 
 always. 
 
 1966. {Viscount Hardinc/e.) What should you say 
 was the average proportion of the members present 
 and of those absent ?— I should say that not two 
 thirds turn out as the average proportion. 
 
 1967. {Lord Elcho.) At your inspection ? — Yes, 
 I should say a little more than half. 
 
 1968. {Col. MacMtirdo.) Is it your opinion that 
 those who stay away cannot possibly attend, or that 
 they stay away from indifference ? — I think that those 
 who stay away are either those who cannot possibly 
 attend or those who are not sufficiently drilled and 
 who are ashamed to show themselves. Many of the 
 members of corps have kept away, because they are 
 afraid to come before the inspecting officer, and those 
 corps have generally had their Serjeants recently, 
 and the men liavc not had sufficient drill. 
 
 1969. You have stated that they were deficient in 
 equipment, what is the deficiency ? — In the whole of 
 my division I do not think that there is a pouch fit 
 to carry the ammunition properly. 
 
 1970. Is there anything else in the equipment that 
 is deficient ? — No ; the pouch and the ball bag are the 
 most essential thiugs. 
 
 1971. Do you think it is necessary that the volun- 
 teers should be equipped with a knapsack at the 
 present time ? — No, I think that a good waterproof 
 havresack would be by far the best. 
 
 1972. For present use ? — Yes. 
 
 1973. {Chairman.) Are many of the men equipped 
 with havresacks ? — Very few of them ; only three 
 corps I think. 
 
 1974. What is the usual equipment of the corps 
 under your inspection ? — The equipment of the 
 volunteers sometimes consists of a shoulder belt with 
 a pouch, but rather a dandy looking thing, which I 
 consider is of very little or no good ; they also have 
 a waist belt with a slung pouch which will hold 
 about 30 rounds, but then it expands and consequently 
 tlie ammunition could not safely be put into it, it 
 would all go to pieces ; all their pouches are bad. 
 
 1975. Do you find that their clothing is complete ? 
 — Not of all of them. 
 
 1976. Are they provided with great coats? — Not 
 one. 
 
 1977. Merely with tunic and trousers ? — Yes, and 
 a cap. 
 
 1978. {Lord Elcho.) Some of them wear ieggings. 
 do they not ? — Yes ; and there are several Highland 
 cor[)S that are very well clothed, not well equipped, 
 but they are remarkably well clothed. 
 
 1979. They have trowsers, have they not ? — No. 
 
 1980. {Sir A. Campbell.) Is it, in your opinion, 
 desirable that all the volunteers should have great 
 coats ? — No ; I think that if they had a light cloak 
 it would be better. 
 
 1981. It is desirable you think that they should 
 have something in addition to the tunic ? — Yes ; I 
 think so. 
 
 1982. {Lieut-Col. Barttclot.) Have you heard any 
 complaints made with respect to the pay of the 
 adjutants not being sufficient in the district that 
 you inspect ? — No ; no complaints have come to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 1983. Have any complaints about the pay of the 
 drill instructors come to you ? — Yes ; I have been 
 very often asked by officers commanding corps what 
 they ought to give to the serjeant instructor, and I 
 told them, nothing ; that the Government did not con- 
 sider that they were to receive anything except the 
 Government allowance. I also, at the same time, 
 told them that I thought if they provided lodgings 
 for them where there was a difficulty, particularlj' in 
 a town, as to expense, it would be perhaps as well, 
 if they were valuable men. 
 
 1984. {Sir A. Campbell.) You think that the pre- 
 sent rate of pay is sufficient ? — I think not ; but I 
 think that the serjeant instructor ought to be a 
 difierent man from a common serjeant of a regi- 
 ment ; he ought to be a man of tact, and he ought to 
 be a thorough good drill. At the same time you will 
 not get the best non-commissioned officers out of the 
 array for the pay which these instructors receive. 
 
 1985. {Col. MacMiirdo.) Not in addition to their 
 pension? — I think that their pay ought to be increased
 
 TO INQtrrUE INTO THE CONDITTOJT OF THE VOT.ITNTEER FORCE m GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 91 
 
 a little, and that the corps ought not to give thoni 
 anything. 
 
 1986. {Lord Elcho.) Their pay at the present time 
 i.s loss than the pay of a militia serjoant, is it not ? — 
 Yes, in some instances ; it all depends upon a man's 
 pension on distharsio. 
 
 1987. Take two men in the same position exactly ; 
 the pay that one receives as a volunteer serjeant is 
 less tlian the other receives as a militia serjeant ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1988. You think that a superior man is required 
 in the position of a volunteer serjeant compared with 
 a man in the position of a militia serjeant ? — Yes, 
 because he is all by himself ; he is a man in whom 
 you must place implicit trust, and he lias nobody to 
 overlook him ; he must be a good man and a steady 
 man. 
 
 1989. Do you think that much tact is required in 
 dealing with militia recruits ? — They are more under 
 authority and they do not require so much tact. 
 
 1990. ( llscnirnf Ilardhigc.) Is it your belief that 
 these Government serjeants generally get extra 
 gratuities from the corps ? — Yes, I know tliat they 
 do. 
 
 1991. I presume that that is for cleaning arms ? — 
 Yes, it is chiefly for that. 
 
 1992. (Lord Elrho.) Supposing all these drill 
 Serjeants who are now allowed to these corps, the al- 
 lowance being one per company, to be good drills and 
 efficient men, do you think that the allowance is more 
 than is requisite, or that they can do with less ? — I 
 think that when there are two companies together in 
 one place, one drill serjeant would be sufficient, but 
 it depends upon their strength very much. 
 
 1993. Do you mean actually in the same place, or 
 two or three miles apart ? — They could not do it if 
 they were that distance apart ; they must be in the 
 same place. 
 
 1994. {Chairman.) How many men could a drill 
 serjeant attend to. 200 ?■ — Yes, but he would not, I 
 think, get more than 50 together out of 200. 
 
 1995. {Col. MacMurdo.) Not for the ordinary 
 drills ?— No. 
 
 1996. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you think that higher 
 qualifications are required for an adjutant of a volun- 
 teer corps than for a militia corps ? — No ; I think 
 that the adjutant in a militia corps is perfectly fit for 
 the appointment in a volunteer corps, most decidedly. 
 
 1997. You do not think that the class of persons 
 with whom the volunteer adjutant has to deal, from 
 beino- less directly under his command than the 
 militia are, requires different qualifications in the 
 adjutant and therefore makes it more difficult to get 
 a fit adjutant ? — It is more dilficult to get a fit 
 adjutant, because I think that the pay is not good, 
 jjarlicularly for an administrative battalion ; he has 
 to move about at an expense of 12s. a day, whereas 
 the militia adjutant, I think, receives the same sum, 
 and he is always stationary. 
 
 1998. {Viscount Harduige.) Do you think that 
 the adjutants of these administrative battalions visit 
 their companies sufficiently often ? — Some of them 
 do ; good adjutants do, Imt they are not all alike. I 
 have seen a good adjutant visiting them perpetually. 
 
 1999. Have they ever excused themselves for not 
 visiting their corps sufficiently often by saying that 
 they are underpaid by the Government ? — No, they 
 have never complained to me about it, and I have 
 known of several ; for instance, I was up in the 
 North of Scotland only a few weeks ago going round 
 my inspection, and the adjutant accompanied me 
 everywhere, and he had to go 50 and 60 miles across 
 ihe country with me, and it must have been a great 
 expense to him. 
 
 2000. Would not the position of the adjutant 
 differ so materially in different parts of the country 
 that in one administrative battalion he might visit 
 every company by the rail, and not have to keep a 
 horse, and in other battalions he must keep a horse 
 all the year round, and ride many miles to visit the 
 companies ? — Yes. 
 
 2001. The circumstances are very different in dif- 
 ferent battalions ? — Yes. 
 
 2002. {Sir A. Cumpbi'll.) Is it your opinion that 
 the adjutants are sufficiently paid ? — Yes, except the 
 travelling allowance. 
 
 200;i. Do you think that in the consolidated batta- 
 lions tlie pay is ample ? — 15y giving them more pay I 
 think that you would get better adjutants, and I think 
 that more officers in the army would com(^ forward ; 
 there is a difficult}' now in getting good adjutants. 
 
 2004. Of what class of men are the adjutants in the 
 corps under your ins])ection mostly composed ? — With 
 the, exception of two or three they are very good. 
 
 2005. Ai'e they non-commissioned officers raised 
 from tlie ranks, or are they officers from the army ? 
 — Taking the artillery and rifles, nine are non- 
 commissioned officers raised from the ranks. 
 
 2006. But there are a good many officers ? — Yes. 
 Twenty from Her Majesty's European and East Indian 
 army. 
 
 2007. (Major Harcourt.) In the artillery have 
 the adjutants chiefly risen from the ranks ? — Yes, in 
 the artillery they have. 
 
 2008. {Chairman.) Do you think there will be 
 any difficulty in maintaining the ciu'ps at their |)re- 
 sent strength when their clothing requires to he 
 renewed ? — Yes ; I think there will be great diffi- 
 culty. I do not think that tlie men who are eflfective, 
 who are now useful men, and have been well drilled 
 will come forward ; there are several who will not 
 unless some assistance is given to them towards 
 their clothing. 
 
 2009. Can you state how that assistance ought to 
 be given ; do you think that it ought to be received 
 from the Government through the commanding 
 officers of the corps ? — I think that if a man is eflec- 
 tive his clothing ought to be given to him, but until 
 then he ought to clothe himself. An allowance for 
 each effective might be given to the commanding 
 officer, who should properly account to the Govern- 
 ment how it was expended. 
 
 2010. Who would you consider to be really an ef- 
 fective ? — A man who thoroughly knows his duty in 
 the ranks or in whatever position he is, either an 
 officer, a serjeant, or a private. 
 
 2011. You would not consider a man thoroughly 
 efficient, I presume, unless he had passed through a 
 course of musketry drill ? — Decidedly not. 
 
 2012. Do you find that a large proportion of the 
 corps under your inspection have not passed through 
 a course of musketry drill ? — Yes, very few corps 
 have gone through the whole course. 
 
 2013. Have the adjutants all qualified themselves 
 by going to Ilythe ?— Not all of them. 
 
 2014. {Major-Gcn. Eyre.) What steps do you 
 take to ascertam the amount of target practice that 
 has taken place in every corps ; do you overhaul the 
 register ? — I look at the musketry drill and practice 
 return ; we cannot always do tliat, some corps do not 
 produce it, the Government do not insist upon their 
 producing it ; it is only accidental, we cannot enfoce it. 
 
 2015. They are not obliged to produce anything to 
 you ? — Nothing at all. The Volunteer Act does not 
 enforce it. 
 
 2016. Then what evidence is there for you or for 
 the Government as to the state of the corps in rifle 
 practice ; is there any proof at all ? — None at all. 
 
 2017. {Sir A. Campbell.) I presume that most of 
 the corps do send in returns of the practice they have 
 gone through ? — Some few do ; but the regulations do 
 not authorize the ins))Octor to call upon them for it ; if 
 I asked any commanding officer for his target practice 
 return, he could say "No ; that is a private affair." 
 
 2018. {Major-Gen. El/re.) But is not that a very 
 rotten state of things with reJ'ercnce to the most 
 essential part of their duty ? — I must say that they 
 pay great attention to their musters, and drill, and 
 musketry instruction, and they do keep registers as 
 far as they can. 
 
 2019. Who keeps the registers ? — The serjeant 
 instructors, those who have got them ; other corps, 
 
 N 2 
 
 Lieut. -Col. 
 J). Jones. 
 
 13 June 1862.
 
 92 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 JJeut.-Col. 
 J). Jones. 
 
 13 June 1862. 
 
 ■vvbo have not got Serjeant instructors, have kept them 
 very irregularly. 
 
 2020. Do you not think that the register should 
 be subject to the supervision of some competent 
 person, because it is open to a great deal of abuse 
 from favouritism, and by entering men as qualified 
 to be returned as effective who are not so ? — Most 
 decidedly. I think that the inspector ought to scq 
 the regular musketry drill and practice return. 
 
 2021. As an ins[)ector of volunteers, is it your 
 opinion that the use of the rille in the hands of the 
 volunteer is a most important part of his drill ? — No ; 
 I would much rather have 20 well drilled moderate 
 shots than 100 good shots badly drilled. 
 
 2022. But although a volunteer might be drilled 
 in the ranks you would not consider him of much 
 use unless he could use his rifle at the target ? — No. 
 
 2023. {Lord Elcho.) They are thoroughly trained 
 in the manual and platoon, and aiming drill, arc they 
 not ? — Yes, their manual and platoon they generally 
 do the best ; they can work at that in the winter 
 under cover, and they do it very well indeed. 
 
 2024. You have spoken of efficiency, what should 
 you consider the best test of efficiency ; should you 
 consider the fact of a man having attended the 
 statutory number of drills a good test of efliciencj', 
 or should you consider it a better test that he had 
 passed some sort of examination either before his 
 adjutant, or tlie serjeant-major, or the commanding 
 officer ? — I tliink that if his commanding officer con- 
 siders him effective that the man should be returned 
 as such. 
 
 2025. Irrespective of the number of drills that he 
 may have attended ? — -Yes ; some men would become 
 effective after oO drills, other men would not become 
 effective after 100, and others would never be- 
 come effijctives, whatever number of drills they 
 attended. 
 
 2026. You may have a volunteer practically 
 efficient, but, according to the statute, ineffective ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2027. ( Viscount Ilardi/if/c.) Do you think that 
 you could rely upon a volunteer officer using his dis- 
 cretion in passing a man or not as an cffi'Ctive ? — He 
 would have the assistance of his adjutant, who ought 
 to be a competent judge whether a man was effective 
 or not. 
 
 2028. Would there not be great difficulty in the 
 case of a scattered corps; how would the examination 
 be conducted ? — Under the adjutant, I should say, 
 most decidedly, he could prove them ; he could 
 always do that, by taking a dozen men ; he could do 
 it in five minutes. 
 
 2029. You would leave it entirely to the discretion 
 of the commanding officer and the adjutant, and you 
 think that no abuse of that power is likely to arise ? 
 I do not think so ; I thinlv that the commanding 
 officer would take care of that. 
 
 2030. («SV/- A. Campbell.) In case C4overnment aid 
 were made dependent upon the number of effectives 
 in a regiment, do you think there would be any 
 danger of commanding officers being tempted to return 
 men as effectives who were not quite so ? — It might 
 be the case, but still I think that the inspecting officer, 
 when he went round, could see whether the men had 
 been drilled properly or not. 
 
 2031. You mean individually? — Yes; I would 
 take a company and I could point out the men who 
 had not been properly drilled. 
 
 2032. {Lord Elcho.) Is not the simple manual and 
 platoon drill a good test ? — No. 
 
 2033. It is part of tlie man's drill ?— Yes. 
 
 2034. And it could be easily tested whether a man 
 could go through the manual and platoon drill cor- 
 rectly ? — Yes. 
 
 2035. Would the inspecting officer have any diffi- 
 culty in the course of his examination in finding out 
 whether any members of a corps who were supposed 
 to be effi'ctive were inefficient in the rest of their 
 drill ? — If the inspecting officer saw the men moving 
 ag a company he would soon find out ; I do not say 
 
 that ho could pick out every man, but he could pick 
 out certain men and say that they were not effective. 
 
 2036. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Would it not be a 
 very invidious duty for the inspecting officer to per- 
 form, to lay his hand here and there upon a particu- 
 lar man, and tell him to fall out, and tell his captain 
 and adjutant that ho had been improperly passed as 
 an effective ? — It certainly would ; but still it would 
 be a duty that a man must go through, and there is a 
 way of doing it ; you might smooth the thing over. 
 
 2037. Do not you at the same time think that a 
 volunteer who has strictly completed his 24 days of 
 drill is sure to have attained a certain amount of 
 proficiency ? — No. 
 
 2038. Why so ? — Because I think that there are 
 some men who go to drill merely for the sake of 
 attending to get over the 24 prescribed drills ; but 
 they look to nothing but shooting, and these men will 
 not learn their drills; some of them do not know how 
 to learn, and they never will make soldiers. 
 
 2039. Would not the same observation apply to 
 the militia who have 21 days' drill? — They have 
 four and five or six hours in a day, and in four days 
 they would have their 24 drills. 
 
 2040. {JSIajor-Gcn. Eyre.) Do those men of whom 
 you spoke become ycxy perfect in the rifle drill ? — 
 Yes, generally. 
 
 2041. They would do to put behind trees and in 
 holes if they were good marksmen ? — Yes, but they 
 M'ould require a certain amount of drill to bring them 
 up to those trees ; it would bo rather dangerous with 
 undrilled men. 
 
 2042. {Major Hareonrt.) Is it not the case that 
 these reports which are not required from the rifle 
 corps are required from the artillery ? — I do not 
 know that. 
 
 2043. {Lord Elcho.") You have spoken generally 
 as to the necessity of further Government assistance 
 being given, from your knowledge of the state of the 
 corps in your district in Scotland, which is confined 
 to the north and to the east, what proportion of the 
 force should you say was self-supporting ? — I should 
 s.iy about one-third, not quite so much perhaps. 
 
 2044. I hold in my hand a report which you have 
 written upon the Iladdingtou report, you generally 
 concur in the accnracj^ of that report do you not, as 
 applicable to the rest of Scotland ? — Yes. 
 
 2045. In your report upon that report you state 
 that one-fourth of the corps in the rural districts 
 are self-supporting, that about one-half contribute 
 a portion, and one-fourth give nothing whatever 
 towards the expense of their corps ; is that generally 
 a correct representation of the condition of the force 
 in your district ? — Yes ; I took occasion in the first 
 year to ask those questions of Uie different corps ; I 
 wanted to see how they managed, and I consider that 
 that is about the average state of things in my 
 division. 
 
 2046. Do you believe that unless further assistance 
 is given these corps will cease to exist, or gradually 
 disappear ? — They will diminish in numbers ; I do 
 not say that they will cease, but they will become 
 perfect skeletons. 
 
 2047. Do you believe that the assistance which is 
 required can be obtained permanently in the district 
 itself ? — Not permanently ; there are corps in which 
 everything is paid by the gentlemen in the neigh- 
 bourhood, and if those gentlemen left the country the 
 corps would fall to pieces. 
 
 2048. Can those gentlemen be reckoned upon per- 
 manently to contribute the money required ? — No, I 
 tliink that they would get tired of it. 
 
 2049. They are getting tired of it are they not ? — 
 Yes, they are ; there are several instances of corps 
 where there have been regular contributions for 
 two years, and the gentlemen in the country have 
 stated that they thought their subscriptions would 
 certainly cease. 
 
 2050. On what grounds do you believe they 
 thought that their subscriptions would cease ; do they 
 disapprove of the volunteer movement and consider
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 93 
 
 it imnecessaiy, or do they think that thoy ought not 
 to bear a burden wliich ought to be borno by tho 
 community at hirge? — I did not enter exactly into their 
 feelings upon the subject, but I imagine that it is 
 partly from a feeling that they cannot atford it in 
 some instances, and in other instances perhaps thero 
 is a little lukewarmness shown towards the move- 
 ment. 
 
 2051. Does that lukewarmness arise from any other 
 cause than the expense ? — I dare say that that is tho 
 chief cause, but 1 cannot tell. 
 
 2052. (C/iairwrui.) Did not those gentlemen come 
 forward in the iirst instance when they considered 
 that an invasion was imminent ? — I think they did, it 
 was a popular movement at the time, and everybody 
 thought tliat they must give something. 
 
 2053. Feeling themselves more secure, and that 
 there is less chance of invasion, are they less eager to 
 subscribe to the movement ? — I think that that feel- 
 ing docs exist. 
 
 2054. {Sir A. Campbell.) Was it not more in this 
 direction, that they were ready to start the thing as 
 an experiment ; but now they think it is for the 
 Government to judge whether it is a successful 
 experiment or not ? — I think that now every corps is 
 looking to the Government for some slight assistance. 
 
 2055. But I am talking of the persons who contri- 
 buted the money ? — I dare say that that feeling may 
 exist with them. 
 
 2056. Supposing that no assistance is given, to 
 what extent do you anticipate that the volunteer 
 force in your district will fall off? — It will fall off 
 gradually. I should say that amongst the .artizans, 
 wliom I consider the best drilled men, it will fall oti" 
 very considerably ; I hardly can say, but I dare say it 
 will fall off about a fourth or something of that sort 
 this j-ear, according as the new clothing is required. 
 
 2057. Do you consider it of importance that a de- 
 cision on the part of the Government should be come 
 to speedily ':!■ — I think that as new clothing is required, 
 the sooner they get assistance the better, if it is the 
 intention of the Government to give them any assist- 
 ance at all, it should be done at once. 
 
 2058. Has new clothing become requisite in many 
 of the corps in your district? — Yes, there are several, 
 
 2059. In which new clothing is immediately re- 
 quired ? — Yes ; they have worn their uniforms very 
 much. 
 
 2060. ( Viscount Hardinge.) In what shape should 
 you recommend further aid to be given ? — I think 
 that every volunteer on joining his corps should pay 
 for his own clothing, and after he has become effec- 
 tive and continues effective for two years, let him 
 have his clothing provided for him, for I think that 
 he is worth keeping. 
 
 2061. Would you give aid in any other shape, or 
 simply in clothing ? — I would give him everything if 
 he was effective. 
 
 2062. Do you mean clothing .and accoutrements ? — 
 Yes ; I would give him the whole of the volunteer's 
 accoutrements, because they have not got a single 
 pouch that is fit to hold ammunition. 
 
 2063. {Major Harcourt.) What security would 
 the Government have that the man, after his clothes 
 had been given to him, would not leave the force in a 
 fortnight ? — He must leave his clothes behind. 
 
 2064. Do you think you would find the volunteers 
 ready to wear second-hand clothes ? — Yes, they do 
 that now in several corps. 
 
 2065. Tunic and trousers and all ? — Yes ; I am 
 talking of course of the lower class. 
 
 2066. Of those who would wish to be provided 
 for ? — Yes. 
 
 2067. ( Viscount Ilardingc.) Do you think that in 
 your district, referring both to the consolidated and 
 the administrative battalions, clothing would be the 
 most acceptable shape in which aid could be given ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2068. You are probably aware that in the metro- 
 politan corps clothing in many cases would not be 
 
 considered a material assistance ? — Yes, and in some 
 of the corps in Edinburgh they would not accept 
 clothing as they can afibrd to provide for themselves, 
 but tlii^ro are some of tho companies composed of 
 artiziins, tho labouring class, and some of the shop- 
 keeping class, who would gladly receive clothing. 
 
 2069. If these corps received clothing and accou- 
 trements from the Government gratuitously, you 
 would not in-oposc, 1 presume, that they sh()u!d 
 receive any further aid ? — No, not at ])reseut. 
 
 2070. {Lord Klclio.) Do the corps in your district 
 mostly pay subscriptions ?— There are a certain 
 number who do, liut they vary in amount ; there arc 
 some corps in which they pay a certain sum, ](),«. 
 a year, and even as low as 5.?. a year ; then there are 
 otiier corps in which the subscription is 21. a year, 
 and a portion of them pay nothing. 
 
 2071. These subscriptions do not go to defray the 
 cost of the uniforms but they go to meet the inciden- 
 tal expenses of the corps which are not now defrayed 
 by the Government ? — I do not know. 
 
 2072. You have stated that you think th.at Govern- 
 ment assistance in the form of clothing would be 
 sutlicient, but are there not many incidental expenses 
 such as ranges, targets, travelling expenses, armouries, 
 drill sheds, orderly rooms, and headquarters which 
 are at present defrayed, not by the Government, but 
 either from local funds or subscriptions from the 
 corps, and would not these expenses still have to be 
 defrayed ? — Yes ; but I think, with regard to travel- 
 ling expenses, that when the different corps oi' a 
 batt.alion have been favourably reported upon by the 
 inspecting officer, that the commanding officer of the 
 battalion should be able to bring these corps together 
 for battalion drill at least two or three times a year, 
 and marching money should be given by the Govern- 
 ment to defray all ex]>enses. 1 am talking of admi- 
 nistrative battalions whose corps are scattered. 
 
 2073. Do you calculate upon their still being dc- 
 fi-ayed from local resources or from subscriptions by 
 the corps ? — From both ; but the orderly rooms are 
 only in the consolidated battalions. 
 
 2074. But there are consolidated battalions in your 
 district are there not ? — Only seven ; three of which 
 are artillery. 
 
 2075. Each company has a place for its arms, has 
 it not ? — Yes. 
 
 2076. And that expense is now defr.ayed either by 
 their subscriptions or from some local fund ? — Yes. 
 
 2077. Assuming that clothing was given by the 
 Government, do you think that the other incidental 
 expenses could be met by the corps themselves? — In 
 most corps they could, but I should like to see all 
 ex])enscs defrayed by Government for effectives. 
 
 2078. You have stated that the artizans are the 
 best drilled men in your district, can you speak 
 generally as to the good conduct and discipline of 
 that class as volunteers ? — I have heard from their em- 
 ployers that the men have improved very much in a 
 social point of view, that thero is more respect shown 
 \>y the men to the masters, and to persons generally, 
 than there used to be in former times. 
 
 2079. The result of volunteering as to that class 
 you find, as inspector, to be that they are the best 
 drilled, the most orderly, and that socially and in all 
 other respects they are improved ? — I do not know 
 about their being orderly, but the masters decidedly 
 say that they are very much improved. 
 
 2080. In the district which you inspect in Scot- 
 land what proportion to the whole force do you 
 suppose that element bears, is it one-half ? — I should 
 say nearly a lialf. 
 
 2081. Without assistance being rendered in the 
 shape of clothing to that portion of the force in your 
 district, do you think thero is any probability of its 
 falling away and ceasing to exist ? — It would gradually 
 cease to exist. 
 
 2082. Do you think that some of them will renew 
 their clothing ? — Yes, a few ; those who are good 
 shots and are fond of it would make an effort to do so. 
 
 N 3 
 
 /.init.-Col. 
 J). Junes. 
 
 13 June 1862.
 
 M 
 
 MINtJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lietit.-Cnl 
 I). Jones. 
 
 13 June 1862. 
 
 2083. And continue to pay their subscriptions ? — 
 Yes, a few of them woukl. 
 
 2084. (Major- Ge?). Eyre.') Some witnesses who 
 have been examined have greatly condemned the 
 system of extravagance which has been practised with 
 respect to bands and balls, and unnecessary field days 
 at a distance, which took money out of the pockets 
 of the men : but those witnesses have belonged to 
 corps in which the funds are in a very flourishing con- 
 dition owiii"' to their avoidance of such extravagance, 
 have you had an opportunity of forming an opinion 
 upon that subject, and can you tell us whether you 
 think there is great deal of unnecessary extravagance ? 
 
 Most decidedly, it has come under my notice that 
 
 there is unnecessary extravagance ; I have seen it 
 in the course of my inspection ; for instance, there are 
 two corps in one town, and each of them has its own 
 band, and one of those bands must cost them, I 
 think, about 130/. or thereabouts in a year, and the 
 other about 1 50/. I thought that one band between 
 the two corps, belonging to the same administrative 
 battalion, would have been quite sufficient. 
 
 2085. Do you not think that by a little effort the 
 volunteers might form for themselves bands at a 
 very small expense ?— Yes, they might. 
 
 2086. Can you recommend to the Commission any 
 intelligent Serjeants or men belonging to the volun- 
 teer corps, who should be examined ? — I cannot ; I 
 could name otficers. 
 
 2087. (Col. MacMurdo.) Referring to a former 
 part of your evidence on the subject of musketry 
 instruction, and bearing in mind that the drill in- 
 struction which the volunteers receive is purely 
 voluntary on their part, and supposing that the 
 Government had power to enforce the keeping of a 
 ];eo-ister of musketry instruction, do you suppose that 
 the instruction would be given in a better way in 
 consequence ? — I think that if the Government were 
 merely to suggest that this should be forthcoming 
 every year the volunteers would like it. 
 
 2088. You are aware that the Government did 
 suggest that, by .supplying them with forms to keep 
 their registers in ? — Yes, and I think that they will 
 be kept, because several officers have asked me to 
 receive these, and I am doing so now. I am receiving 
 them from those corps that have gone through their 
 course ; they send me their returns, and I intend to 
 compare them, and see which corps have produced 
 the best shots, and see which battalion has produced 
 the best shots. 
 
 2089. You are aware that the Government have 
 no power to compel volunteer corps to keep musketry 
 registers at all ?— Certainly. 
 
 2090. Should you see any advantage if an Act of 
 Parliament were passed to compel them to do so, or 
 do you think that the inducements which are now held 
 out to the force to practice firing, according to the 
 regulations, such as the badges which the marksmen 
 receive to encourage them to practice according to 
 the Hythe regulations, are sufficient without any 
 compulsion ? — I think that if the Government were 
 to insist upon an annual return being made of the 
 shooting of every corps it would be au advantage, and 
 I think that the corps would like it themselves. 
 
 2091. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) It would operate as a 
 stimulus to them ? — Yes, you would then see who 
 were the etfective men and who were not in this respect. 
 
 2092. {Sir G. A. WetheraU.) Would not the volun- 
 teers be more satisfied, and be bettev pleased with 
 themselves if a stricter system of discipline were 
 enforced than now exists ?— Yes, but it must be 
 done gradually. 
 
 2093. You think that they would have a better 
 opinion of themselves ? — I think they would. 
 
 2094. They wish, do they not, to be considered 
 soldiers generally speaking ?— Yes, I think they do. 
 
 2095. {Lord Elcho.) When you say that a stricter 
 system of discipline should be enforced, will you be 
 good enough to state in what respects you think the 
 present system of discipline is inefficient, and how it 
 might be improved? — 1 think that if the Govern- 
 ment gave clothing, and gave everytiiing, they would 
 wish to know what the men really were, and whether 
 they were effective or not, and the only way to arrive 
 at that is to have these returns. I do not say that a 
 stricter discipline should be enforced, hut a good 
 commanding officer should gradually instil discipline 
 into his corps, which is not the case with some com- 
 manding officers. 
 
 2096. As to musketry, do you think it is desirable 
 that there should be returns of the musketry practice, 
 so that a book might be annually published as to the 
 volunteers, similar to that wliich General Hay publishes 
 as to the shooting of the army, or something of that 
 kind ? — No ; I think that that would be rather too 
 much, I think that it might be kept in the different 
 divisions and submitted to the inspector-general. 
 
 2097. If it were to serve as an incentive to the 
 corps you would have to publish annually some state- 
 ment of the relative shooting of the different corps 
 founded upon those returns ? — Yes ; it would take 
 about two or three years before you could do that. 
 
 2098. Ultimatelj- should you think that something 
 of that kind was desirable ? — I think so ; I think that 
 the volunteers would like to see the average taken 
 and " figure of merit " given of each corps, and that 
 it would excite emulation among them. 
 
 2099. {Earl of Ducie.) On the other hand, if you 
 published a figure of merit, when it would be im- 
 possible that the firing should be compulsory, would 
 there not be great temptation among commanding 
 officers to confine the shooting to the men whom they 
 knew to be good shots? — I think that every man should 
 go through his course every year who can, and that 
 commanding officers should certify that this has been 
 done. 
 
 2100. But do you think you could enforce that ? — 
 Yes, I think so ; if the Government gave them the 
 ammunition they certainly ought to fire away a 
 portion of it properly. 
 
 2101. {Col. MacMurdo.) But you are aware that 
 they do not fire it away, and that every man in a 
 corps does not fire ? — Yes ; I would not have an 
 exactly similar course to that of General Hay, I 
 think that it might be reduced to about three rounds, 
 instead of five, for each distance, a reduction must be 
 made ; I would not have 60 rounds. 
 
 2102. {Earl of Ducie.) Is there not a large number 
 of the men who do not fire at all ? — Very few, I 
 think ; but there are a number who fire very irregu- 
 larly; every corps, I believe, has received ammunition. 
 
 2103. {Lord Elcho.) Is it not the case that many 
 of the ranges are at a considerable distance from 
 headquarters, and that the corps, whether companies 
 or consolidated battalions, have to pay for conveyance 
 to the ranges ? — Yes ; but that is not so much so in 
 my division ; there are ranges to be had to any ex- 
 tent in Scotland, near small lowus ; but in the large 
 towns they have to go some distance. 
 
 2104. {Col. MacMurdo.) Do not you think that 
 the supervision which would be necessary to ascertain 
 the figure of merit through all the corps in the 
 country could not practically be exercised ? — Not at 
 present, not unless the volunteers wish it themselves. 
 
 2105. You cannot always make sure of the volun- 
 teers being quite right in their I'egisters ? — No, but 
 I tliink that a reduction in the firing and a certificate 
 at the bottom of the registers would ensure correct- 
 ness. I think that something must be done, so tliat 
 every man would feel that those who did not fire 
 must not be considered etfcctives. I would onh' have 
 effectives entered in these registers. 
 
 The witness withdrew.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER fOBCE IN GREAT BEITAIN. 
 
 9.5 
 
 Earl Grosvenoe examined. 
 
 2106. {Chairman.) You command tho Queen's 
 Westminster volunteers, consisting of two battalions ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 2107. It is the largest corps in the metropolis? — 
 Yes ; I believe so. 
 
 2108. Have you any suggestions to offer to the 
 Commission ? — With regard to the pay of the adju- 
 tants, I doubt whether they are not rather underpaid 
 as compared with the adjutants in the militia. I 
 think that there is a little feeling that that is so, 
 because their duties are so much more severe, ex- 
 tending all through the year without intermission. 
 
 2109. The adjutants in the militia being provided 
 with quarters, and the adjutants of volunteers not ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2110. Do you think it would be desirable to in- 
 crease the pay of the adjutants in the volunteers ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2111. So as to put them on the same footing with 
 the adjutants in the militia ? — Yes. 
 
 2112. In the corps which you command is any 
 increased allowance given out of the finals of the 
 corps to the adjutant ?— We did give 120/. to our late 
 adjutant, but he has left us, and we now give 50/. 
 
 2113. (Sir A. Campbell.) Besides quarters ? — No; 
 including quarters. 
 
 2114. {Chairman.) Has he his own horse ? — Yes. 
 
 2115. {Sir A. Campbell.) Have yon found a 
 difficulty in obtaining good officers to take the post of 
 adjutant ? — No ; I have had innumerable applications 
 whenever there has been a vacancy. 
 
 2116. I suppose the position of the corps in tho 
 West of London has been an attraction ?• — Yes. 
 
 2117. {Chairman.) With regard to your paid 
 Serjeants, do you consider that the pay allowed by 
 Government is sufficient ? — Yes ; I think so. 
 
 2118. Do you give them no more ? — They get fees 
 for looking after the arms and other things, which, 
 I think, make their pay sufficient, at all events, I have 
 heard no complaints on that score. 
 
 2119. Have you any other suggestions to make 
 as to the rifle force, iu order to improve its effici- 
 ency ? — There is one point with regard to the 
 size of the companies, which I think is important. I 
 think that they can hardly be too large, as they muster 
 generally in so very small a number. I mean that a 
 company consisting of 60 you never can work as a 
 company, not above 20 of them attend ; whereas if 
 you had a company consisting of 110, you would 
 probably have a workable company. 
 
 2120. So that at battalion drills it would not be 
 necessary to break up the companies 'r' — No ; so many 
 officers when we parade have to fall out, having 
 nothing to do. 
 
 2121. {Sir A. Campbell.) How would you propose 
 to meet that difficulty ? — I really do not know how. 
 
 2122. Would you refuse to enrol new companies 
 until all the companies in the district or in the corps 
 had obtained their minimum ? — The difficulty is to 
 know what to do with the old officers. 
 
 2123. {Colonel 3Iac3Iurdo.) You might absorb 
 them as vacancies occurred ? — Yes. 
 
 2124. What do you consider to be the proper 
 minimum number in a company ? — I should say 110. 
 
 2125. In cases where a district was thinly popu- 
 lated, it would be difficult to raise a company of that 
 nimibcr?- — -Yes ; but I was thinking more of a town. 
 
 2126. {Chairman.) Do you consider that any assist- 
 ance is necessary from the Government to maintain 
 the volunteer force in its present condition ? — Yes ; 
 I think that it would be very desirable indeed. 
 
 2127. In what shape do you think it should be 
 given ? — I consider that 1/. a head would be the 
 minimum to be given through the commanding officer 
 on the guarantee of a certain number of attendances 
 at drill. 
 
 2128. Would you limit the application of that fund 
 in any way V — I should leave that to the discretion of 
 the commanding officer. 
 
 I 
 
 2129. Entirely ?— Yes. 
 
 2130. You would not restrict it to rifle ranges ? 
 
 of part of it being 
 way of clothing ? — I 
 
 IS no 
 
 thnik not. 
 
 2131. Would you approve 
 given to assist tho men in tho 
 think not. 
 
 2132. {Earl of Ducic.) If you had sucli a sum at 
 your disposal, how would you "apply it ? — Wo should 
 get a longer range than we have, and which we can- 
 not get for want of money ; and we should get 
 knapsacks, which we ought to have in store, and also 
 cloaks, which we have not got. 
 
 2133. (^Chairman.) Do you think that at the 
 present time knapsacks are of importance ? — Not at 
 the present moment, except so far as it would be as 
 well that the men should accustom themselves to 
 wear them. 
 
 2134. {Col. MacMurdo.) Do you think that they 
 would accustom themselves to carry them ? — Yes, 
 I think so, occasionally. 
 
 2135. {Earl of D/ecic.) I presume that you have a 
 sufficient income to carry on the ordinary affairs of 
 the corps ? — We want a longer rifle range ; and then 
 also I would defray the expense of the corps going 
 down by railway to Bushy to drill, or to Wimbledoii, 
 out of those funds. 
 
 2136. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do not you think that 
 if you paid those expenses, and the railway com- 
 panies knew that the men were not putting their 
 hands into their own pockets, they would increase 
 the fares ? — I suppose there is always some risk of 
 that kind. 
 
 2137. {Viscount Hardinge.) Are you aware that 
 in one of the metropolitan corps, the strongest and. 
 most efficient, no extra allowance is given to the 
 adjutant ? — I believe that in some cases there 
 extra allowance. 
 
 2138. Do you consider it absolutely necessary to 
 give an extra allowance to the adjutant ? — I under- 
 stand that there is a feeling amongst them that their 
 salary is not sufficiently high, not so high as that of 
 the militia adjutants, considering the work they have 
 to do. 
 
 2139. Could you not obtain an efficient adjutant 
 generally speaking, without giving him any extra 
 allowance ? — I think not. 
 
 2140. {Lord Elcho.) Your subscription is 1/. a 
 year, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 2141. Is there any difficulty in getting the sub- 
 scriptions in ? — Yes ; very great difficulty in some 
 companies. 
 
 2142. Is that difficulty one which in the course of 
 time you think will increase or diminish ? — It will 
 increase every year, probably. 
 
 2143. In order to meet the immediate expenses of 
 the corps for headquarters and many other purposes, 
 you are at present dependent upon your subscrip- 
 tions ? — Yes. 
 
 2144. That source might foil you ? — Yes. 
 
 2145. Has the attendance of the men been good 
 lately ? — Not so good this year as it was last year. 
 
 2146. To what do you attribute the falling off in 
 the attendance ? — The men think that they know their 
 drill ; they have been pretty hard at it for two years, 
 and they really think that they know it, .and that it is 
 not necessary to go on with it. 
 
 2147. Do you think that having great field days 
 early in the year leads them to that belief? — I think 
 so far it does. 
 
 2148. Has the attendance since the Brighton 
 review been as good as it was before V — No ; we have 
 been obliged to give up some of our Saturday drills 
 altogether. 
 
 2149. Would it not be more advisable to have great 
 field days towards the end of the month of July ? — 
 Yes ; I have no doubt of it. 
 
 2150. If they were given at the close of the season 
 as a kind of reward for attendance at drill, to which 
 
 N 4 
 
 Tiarl 
 Grosvenor . 
 
 13 June lftG2.
 
 96 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Earl 
 Grosvenor. 
 
 IS June 1862. 
 
 only those who were efficient should be permitted to 
 {TO, do you think that that would have a good effect ? — 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 2151. (Chairman.) Have you any other suggestion 
 to offer ? — I believe that a very strong feeling exists 
 in the volunteer mind that some further aid tha,n is 
 now given is absolutely essential to the continued 
 welfare, if not to the existence, of the force, and that. 
 this is really the main point which presses for con- 
 sideration and decision. If the Government consider 
 the force of real service to the country, the question 
 remains, how that aid can best be given ? I have a 
 strong impression myself that a capitation grant of I/, 
 per head upon etfectives, according to, perhaps, a 
 more limited regulation with regard to the minimum 
 of attendances on parade, would be the most effective 
 as well as the most simple way of meeting the diffi- 
 culty ; that this II. should be paid to the command- 
 ing officer ; that he should be responsible to the 
 Government for the proper outlay of the grant ; and 
 that he should submit tiie balauce-sheet of his corps 
 to a Government Inspector when required to do so. 
 
 Those members of the corps who are rich enough 
 would have the option of attending a sufficient num- 
 ber of drills to claim the 1/., or would not attend so 
 many, and in that case pay their usual subscription 
 as before, while there would probably be an increase 
 in the number of those who form the backbone of the 
 system, namely, of clerks and small shopkeepers who 
 have time at their disposal, but to whom the payment 
 of 1/., in addition to the expense of uniform, of accou- 
 trements, and of travelling for battalion and brigade 
 drill, is a heavy charge. I consider that, with regard 
 to the corps I command, a capitation grant of 1/. 
 would be sufficient to defray the ordinary expendi- 
 ture, which is estimated for tliis year at under 1,000/. 
 for a body of 1,480 men, while a part would also be 
 available for the purchase of knapsacks and cloaks, 
 for travelling fares, and for the enlarging our rifle 
 range. I may perhaps add how difficult it is to en- 
 force any "regulations" upon volunteers, and that, in 
 my humble opinion, it is important that they should 
 be as few and as simple as possible, for otherwise tliey 
 become a dead letter. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Maj. G. 
 
 Wurrender. 
 
 2151. (Chairman.) We understand that you have 
 some further suggestion to make beyond what you 
 stated in your evidence the other day ? — There were 
 one or two questions, and particularly one which 
 Lord Hardinge addressed to me, which I was not 
 prepared to answer then, but I have since taken 
 means to ascertain the exact truth. With reference 
 to the recruiting for the army and the militia, as far 
 , as we can ascertain in our rural districts, the recruit- 
 ing for the army has never been very great at any 
 time, but certainly has not been increased by the voluu- 
 teer movement. On the other hand, we find that the 
 recruiting for the militia has benefited, because we find 
 that we have given men to it ; we gave either six or 
 eight men from one volunteer corps in the course of 
 the last year ; and further, that the officers of the 
 corps think that if on any occasion the Government 
 were anxious to increase the number of ihe militia, the 
 officers could at all times help the militia very much. 
 2152. You do not, I suppose, allow men to belong- 
 to both forces ? — Never, except officers ; I believe 
 that they bear commissions in both ; not in either of 
 the counties that I am connected v.ith, but there arc 
 instances of that, I believe. Then I wish to mention 
 with regard to the feelings of the men, if the corps 
 were dissolved from want of money, that there would 
 be the greatest regret felt amongst them all, and not 
 only amongst themselves but amongst all their own 
 friends ; tlieir general health from their improved 
 cleanliness, and their steadier habits has decidedly 
 improved, and therefore their friends would regret it 
 as much as tliemselves. Then with regard to tlie 
 comparative discipline between those men who have 
 been entirely or mostly aided in obtaining what they 
 wanted, and those who have entirely furnished them- 
 selves, the only difficulty that I have ever had, tlie 
 only severity tliat I was ever obliged to put in force 
 was against one man ; there were several concerned, 
 but it was the ringleader that I jiunished. They 
 were volunteers who had entirely found them- 
 selves, and who considered themselves as the cream 
 of the corps, and they were the most difficult to 
 deal with; and the sense of the men who had been 
 assisted was entirely against the oftisnders, and they 
 entirely sympathised with the measures that I was 
 obliged to take ; and those men decidedly liked 
 drill better, it was more amusement to them than to 
 the others, as they had no other amusement except 
 what they would have to pay for. Then with regard 
 to two companies in one place ; in many instances 
 two companies have been, from the outset, placed 
 under one commanding officer. At our headquarters 
 there are two companies ; but, unfortunately, the 
 mode of consolidating them was not adopted at fii'st, 
 
 Major George Waeeender further examined. 
 
 and there have been, from the very first, the greatest 
 possible rivalry and jealousies ; and I have had more 
 trouble in keeping the peace between those two com- 
 panies than with all the rest. If the lord-lieutenant, 
 at my suggestion or otherwise, had applied to this 
 office to have them put together, they might consider 
 it as some local job, and one company or tlie other 
 miglit kick. But if the War Office were to deter- 
 mine that two corps or three corps in one place were 
 always to be put under the command of one man, 
 things would work far better as to ranges, and drill, 
 and general discipline. They would not kick, I 
 think, if it was done in that way. As it is, if one 
 officer is slack and another officer is strict, it creates 
 the greatest confusion between the two corps. Then 
 as to the amount of assistance ; I was asked the 
 other day whether I thought 1 /. would be enough ? 
 I said at the time, that it was barely enough; but I 
 forgot, at the same time, that out of that fund 
 we should have to find belts, and to meet all the 
 expenses of coming to battalion drills ; and 1 /. I 
 think, would be very bare work. I think it would 
 be hardly possible to do it. I think that 25^. would 
 all be used up in the couEtry. Then, as to the adju- 
 tants, I do not think that they are over-paid by any 
 means ; at the same time, in some districts I think 
 that they might superintend more corps than tliose 
 of a battalion of four or five corps. My own adjutant 
 works very hard ; but his whole heart is in it, and 
 he likes work ; therefore if he is at headquarters, 
 and any drill goes on in either corps at headquarters, 
 he goes and superintends ; he goes to every corps 
 twice in a month, but at the same time I think that 
 the corps might do with perhaps a little less super- 
 vision, audit woidd be better I think to give the^adju- 
 tant a little more money ; and if one county can only 
 raise one very small battalion, to put a neighbouring 
 county in the same condition into the same battalion, 
 I thinlv tliat an adjutant with a little more money 
 could perfectly do the work ; that is to sav, I do not 
 think that the adjutant of a small battalion has enough 
 to do, unless he does a good deal of serjeant-major's 
 work, and therefore it would be economy if lie had a 
 little more pay ; and if you threw four or five com- 
 panies in a neighbouring county perliaps in the same 
 condition all under him. 
 
 2153. (Col. MacMindn.) You are aware, are you 
 not, that that is done ? — Yes ; and I think that that 
 is a very good thing. 
 
 2154. {Sir A. Campbell.) Does your adjutant 
 superintend the musketry instruction of tlie com- 
 panies ? — He superintends generally and personally, 
 as far as he can ; but not entirely, as he cannot be 
 present with each corps on ejich day of instruction.
 
 TO IXQUIRE IXTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEEK FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 97 
 
 2155. Does he see that the company instructors 
 arc fit to carry on the company instruction ? — Yes. 
 
 2156. Do you thinii it would be desirable in case 
 of any assistance being given by the Government, to 
 make it a condition that all companies so receiving 
 that assistance should consent to be battalionized ? — 
 I think that that is very necessary ; and then it would 
 create a disposition in the men to he put under more 
 decided control, and I would not wish to see new 
 corps raised in consequence of Government aid, as 
 any persons thus enabled to volunteer can enter those 
 corps which already exist in their own locality. 
 
 Where none exist, the raising of new corps might 
 bo permitted. Then with regard to the number 
 of men who are likely to clothe themselves again, I 
 havi^ received a letter from an oHicer in the Forfar- 
 shire liattalion. Sir .John Ogilvies, although it is not 
 I'rom bini, but from a gentleman of my own country 
 living there, and they calculate that out of about 500 
 or 600 men 30 or 40 nuiy reclothe themselves, but 
 not more. 
 
 2157. {Chairman.) Are these all the points to 
 which you wish to rei'er ? — Yes. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned till Tuesday next at half-past 12 o'clock, 
 
 Tuesday, 17th June 1862. 
 
 PRESENT i 
 
 Viscount EVEESLEV. 
 
 Viscount Hakdinge. 
 Lord Klcho. 
 
 Lord OVEESTOXE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 Lieutenaut-General Sir G. A. Wetiierali,. 
 Colonel MacJMuudo. 
 Major Harcodrt. 
 
 Maj. G. 
 }yiineii(ler. 
 
 13 June 1S62. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chair. 
 
 2158. {Chairman.) I believe you are 
 the 7th Sussex Rifle Volunteers ? — Y''es. 
 
 2159. How long have you been in that corps? — 
 Nearly three years next August. 
 
 2160. You are, I presume, well acquainted with 
 the feelings of the members of that corps ? — Yes, I 
 think so. 
 
 2161. Do you think that the same spirit which 
 gave rise to the volunteer movement in the first 
 instance prevails now ? — Yes ; some men, perhaps, 
 are getting a little tired of it, some few, but not 
 many ; we generally muster very well upon what we 
 call great occasions, s«ch as battalion drill days, or 
 field days of any kind, we generally turn out then very 
 well. 
 
 2162. You do not find your numbers diminish ? — 
 Not at all. 
 
 2163. When the corps was originally formed, did 
 the members provide their own clothing? — No, 
 they did not, at least only a small proportion of them 
 did. I suppose that out of 80 men, at least 50 were 
 provided with uniforms out of the money that we 
 raised iu the neighbourhood. 
 
 2164. Does your corps consist of 80 men? — 
 Rather over that number ; there are between 9(1 and 
 100 on paper, 80 effectives. 
 
 2165. Does your corps form one of an administra- 
 tive battalion ? — Yes. 
 
 2166. I suppose it has its fund separate from the 
 battalion fund ? — Yes. 
 
 2167. Was the clothing provided out of that fund ? 
 —Yes, it was. 
 
 2168. Do you have an account presented every year 
 of the expenditure ? — Yes. 
 
 2169. Is the balance in favour of the corps at the 
 present time ? — We have a very small balance indeed 
 in hand. 
 
 2170. In what way is the money expended? — For the 
 rent of the armoury, and the rent of the meadow that 
 we use adjoining the butt, incidental expenses, trades- 
 men's bills, and cleaning rifles ; until this year we have 
 paid our drill instructor between 50/. and 60/. an- 
 nuall}', which was the largest item. 
 
 2171. That will not occur again ? — No. 
 
 2172. What is the annual subscription paid by 
 the members of the corps ? — We have hitherto suc- 
 ceeded in getting a little over 100/., but 1 am afraid 
 that this year the subscriptions will fall short; we have 
 lost several very good friends in our neighbourhood. 
 
 Mr. WiLLLAM Lintott examined, 
 ii private in 
 
 Mr. Broadwood was one of those who supported our 
 corps very liberally, and there were several others. 
 I am afraid that many will not give so much, if they 
 give anything at all this year. 
 
 2173. What is the annual subscription of each 
 member ?— In the first instance we never asked the 
 members to subscribe at all, which was a mistake ; 
 there are very few who give anything towards the 
 funds, not more than 8 or 10 of us. 
 
 2174. Is the fund principally supported by hono- 
 rary members ? — Yes, it is. 
 
 2175. When the clothing requires renewal, do you 
 think there will be any difficulty in raising a fund to 
 reclothe your men, or do you think they will be able 
 to do it without ? — I am afraid that we shall have 
 very great difficulty ; indeed, I am sure of it. 
 
 2176. Is the attendance at drill as good as ever ? 
 
 Y''es, it is. 
 
 2177. How often do you have your battalion drills ? 
 — About four times in the year. 
 
 2178. Is your muster good on those occasions ? — It 
 has been very good indeed ; the other day in Petworth 
 park we fell rather short, for so many men live in tin,; 
 country who are engaged at haynuiking, and we fell 
 certainly short on that occasion. 
 
 2179. The attendance is good upon the wliole ? — 
 Yes, very good. 
 
 2180. Have you any great distance to go to the 
 battalion drills ? — They are held sometimes at one 
 jilace and sometimes at another ; sometimes at Hurst- 
 pier-point, which is about 15 or 16 miles from home, 
 and the other day we were at Petworth, 18 miles 
 from home ; and we went to the review at Brighton, 
 and sometimes we have them within a few miles of 
 our own town. 
 
 2181. Looking to the future, do you see anything 
 that is likely to interfere with the eflicieney of the 
 corps ? — I see nothing but want of money. 
 
 2182. And especially, I i)resume, funds whcrewitii 
 to supply clothing ? — It is a question of uniform with 
 us almost entirely ; we hav(' hitherto raised enoutth 
 to meet our annual expenditure, which I am afVuid 
 we shall not quite do in future. I fcel satisfied that 
 we shall have the greatest ditficailty in getting money 
 to reclothe the men, and most of the uniforms are now 
 completely worn out. 
 
 2183. If you had money, you sec no prospect of 
 the corps declining in numbers ? — No ; in fact we 
 shall increase. 
 
 O 
 
 Mr. 
 W. Lintott. 
 
 17 Juue 18G2.
 
 98 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Mr. 
 W. Lintott. 
 
 17 June 1862. 
 
 2184. (Sir A. Campbell.) From what class of men 
 is your company recruited ? — Mechanics principally, 
 and young men holding situations in the town, and 
 some dozen or so of gentlemen like myself, young 
 tradesmen in the town, and young farmers in the 
 neighbourhood. 
 
 2185. How was the uniform provided originally ? 
 — By the money that was raised in the neighbour- 
 hood. Some 20 or 30 of us found our own, and we 
 also found uniforms for some of our own dependants ; 
 but ior 45 or 50 we paid out of the funds that we 
 raised for that purpose. 
 
 2183. {Lieut.- Col. Barttelot.) Your corps was one 
 that first purchased their own arms ? — Yes. 
 
 2187. Did not that throw you back very much 
 in your funds to begin with ? — Yes. 
 
 2188. 1 believe, from what I have seen lately, that 
 it is the same with your corps as with many othei's, 
 that after battalion drill the attendance of men is not 
 so good for some time to come ? — No, it is not. 
 
 2189. But at any battalion drill, or at any general 
 or divisional field day, the attendance is always very 
 good indeed ? — Yes, very good. 
 
 2190. Have you sold your arms? — Yes; most of 
 them have. 
 
 2191. To whom ? — The major had the entire 
 management of that, to dispose of them for us. 
 
 2192. The Government did not take them ? — No. 
 The London Armoury Company allowed us, I think, 
 21. each for arms that we had paid 51. for. 
 
 2193. Do you find that the attendance of the 
 farmers, or of the artizans and mechanics, is the best 
 at your drills ? — The attendance of the artizans and 
 mechanics, certainly, is the best. 
 
 2194. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Is not that in some 
 measure to be attributed to the fact, that they are 
 upon the spot, whereas agricultural labourers have to 
 come in from some distance ? — That has a great deal 
 to do -ndth it, no doubt. 
 
 2195. (Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) Are your arms all 
 kept in store ? — Yes ; the members are not allowed 
 to take them away. 
 
 2196. That is the reason, is it not, why you em- 
 ploy somebody to clean them ? — Yes. 
 
 2197. Is not that a heavy expense on the corps ? — 
 No it is not. 
 
 2198. {Viscount Hardinge.) How are your travel- 
 ling expenses defrayed when you go to battalion 
 drill ? — It all comes from the money that is annually 
 subscribed, and that we collect. 
 
 2199. Do you give any extra allowance to the drill 
 Serjeant ? — No. 
 
 2200. He has no extra allowance for cleaning the 
 arms ? — No. 
 
 2201. Have you heard any complaint made on that 
 score, that he is inadequately paid ? — No. 
 
 2202. How are the arms cleaned, by the Serjeant r 
 —Yes. 
 
 2203. What is the expense of your armoury ? — We 
 pay a rent of 16?. a year for the armoury itself, and 
 then we have a serjeant armourer who is a gunsmith 
 in our town, and to whom we pay 8/. or 10/. per 
 annum for seeing that the rifles are all kept perfectly 
 right, in addition to the cleaning ; we give him that 
 to inspect the arms. 
 
 2204. I suppose that some of the rifles are kept at 
 the men's residences ? — None now. 
 
 2205. Has any complaint been made on that score 
 on the part of the men, that they dislike having their 
 arms kept in the armoury ? — None that I have ever 
 heard of. 
 
 2206. Have you found no inconvenience result from 
 that ? — Not the least. 
 
 2207. Is the armoury close to the drill ground ? — 
 Yes, close, within 150 yards. 
 
 2208. Do you know what the expense of your 
 butt has been ? — I cannot call to mind ; it was 
 erected two or three years ago. 
 
 2209. {Lieut.- Col. Barttelot.) What rent do you 
 
 pay ? ZOl. a year for the field in which the butt is 
 
 erected. 
 
 2210. ( Viscount Hardinge.) What is the expense 
 of keeping that butt in order ? — I should fancy it is 
 12/. or 15/. a year. 
 
 2211. Does that include a range keeper and a 
 marker ? — We have no range keeper, but we pay a 
 marker extra. 
 
 2212. Have you anybody on the look-out wheu 
 the men are firing ? — Yes, invariably. 
 
 2213. Is he paid ?— Yes. 
 
 2214. At what rate is he paid ? — So much accord- 
 ing to the length of time that we are at practice. 
 
 2215. Have you found in your corps that the 
 material pressure has been the expenditure for uni- 
 forms ? — Certainly. 
 
 2216. If you were relieved from that pressure, and 
 if uniforms were given to your corps gratuitously, 
 would not your funds be materially relieved ? — Yes. 
 
 2217. In fact, you would ask for nothing more ? — 
 No. 
 
 2218. (Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) Do you think that if 
 the men were relieved from any expense as to batta- 
 lion and other field days, it would tend very much to 
 the permanence of the corps ? — I think it would. 
 
 2219. The chief difficulty which artizans have to 
 contend with is the money they are out of pocket ? — 
 Yes. it is. 
 
 2220. {Lord Elcho.) If you had clothing given to 
 you, what annual subscription do you think would 
 cover the other incidental expenses, such as for 
 ranges, drills, armouries, and so forth ? — 100/. a year 
 would do it well. 
 
 2221. Do you think it would require 100/. a year 
 in addition ? — Yes. 
 
 2222. What are your days for drill ? — Tuesdays 
 and Thursdays. 
 
 2223. Not Saturdays ?— No. 
 
 2224. When the arms are brought in late of an 
 evening, do the men before they go home clean their 
 own arms, or are they handed over to the serjeant 
 and put into the armoury and cleaned ? — They are 
 handed over to the serjeant. 
 
 2225. Has he any assistants ? — Yes, he has a boy 
 who is a bugler. 
 
 2226. It would take him a day or two to clean the 
 arms, would it not ? — Yes. « 
 
 2227. {3Iajor Harcourt.) Supposing that the uni- 
 forms were found for the men, would there be any 
 dithculty do you think in getting them to wear 
 second hand uniforms ? — No, many of our men are 
 wearing them now. 
 
 2228. ( Viscount Hardinge.) How much do you 
 pay your bugler ? — 5/. a year. 
 
 2229. {Col. MacMurdo.) You stated just now that 
 the arms are cleaned by one man and a boy, do you 
 not teach your men to clean them ? — We have had 
 several drills, and we have been teaching them to 
 clean them, but they have not done so yet. 
 
 2230. {Lord Elcho.) Is it because they come in so 
 late that there is not time to clean them ? — That is 
 very often the case. 
 
 2231. At what hours do you come in ? — At bat- 
 talion drills very rarely before 9 o'clock, from our 
 company drills I suppose it is about 8. 
 
 2232. ( Col. MacMurdo.) How often do you have 
 company drills in a week ? — Once a week ; squad 
 drill on one day, and company drill on the other. 
 
 2233. Are those drills well attended ? — Pretty well. 
 
 2234. Does the adjutant warn you of the day 
 when he is coming to see you ? — He does. 
 
 2235. I see that on the 8th of last month you had 
 27 men present at drill, on the 20th you had 32 
 present, and on the 27th you had 12 present at drill ; 
 is that about your average ? — Yes. 
 
 2236. {Lord Overstone.) Do I correctly understand 
 it to be your opinion that the feeling in which the 
 volunteer movement originated still remains un- 
 weakened ? — I can hardly say ; I think that the feeling 
 is not quite so strong as it was at first. 
 
 2237. But still you think there is sufficient strength 
 to inspire fair confidence in the permanency of the 
 force ? — Yes.
 
 TO ]>:QU1KE iNTO THE CONDlTtUN OF THE VOLUNTEKIt FOKCE IN GREAT JiRlTAIN. 
 
 99 
 
 2238. You anticipate a great difficulty from pecu- 
 niary considerations ? — Yes. 
 
 2239. Those pecuniary considerations affect prin- 
 cipally the clothing of your men ? — Yes. 
 
 2240. What amount per annum do you think would 
 be sufficient to remove the difficulties which you an- 
 ticipate ? — 150/. a year; I think we might manage 
 to clothe them all with that. 
 
 2241. With 150/. so placed at your disposal, what 
 number of efficient volunteers do you think could be 
 maintained ? — 100. 
 
 2242. Then you think that about 30,«. a head is the 
 sum necessary to maintain the efficiency of your 
 corps ? — I think that that sum would do it. 
 
 2243. In what way do you think that sum could be 
 best applied, by giving it in the form of material things, 
 or placing it at the disposal of the commanding officer, 
 or in what other way should you think it could be 
 most properly applied ? — By placing it, I think, in 
 the hands of the commanding officers. 
 
 2244. If it were ])laeed iu the hands of the com- 
 manding officers, under what restrictions should you 
 recommend that it should be so placed ? — Of course 
 there must be no mistake about the men being effi- 
 cient. 
 
 2245. Do you think it would be a desirable course 
 that the commanding officer should be called upon to 
 give in an annual estimate, stating the purposes for 
 which he requires the money, and to which he intends 
 to apply it ? — Yes. 
 
 2246. Do you think that a sum of money so placed 
 at the disposal of a commanding officer would create 
 a disposition on the part of the other officers or pri- 
 vates to interfere with the application of that money ? 
 — No, I think not. 
 
 2247. Do you think that the commanding oilicer 
 would not be molested by the interference of subordi- 
 nate members of the corps ? — No. 
 
 2248. Do you think he ought to be placed under 
 strict supervision by the Government office from 
 which ihe fund emanated ? — Certainly. 
 
 2249. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Do you think thai 
 your muster rolls are now accurately and strictly 
 kept, and that men are not returned as effective who 
 are really not so ?— I believe that our muster roll has 
 been kejDt very strictly. 
 
 2250. {Lieut.- Col. Barttelot.) Can you not state 
 honestly that your muster roll is very accurately 
 kept ? — I have not the slightest doubt of it. 
 
 2251. {Viscount Hardinge.) I presume that the 
 greater proportion of the men who attend regularly 
 and take an interest and pride in it attend a greater 
 number of drills than 24 ? — Yes ; we have many men 
 who have attended considerably over their proper 
 number of drills, a great number of them. 
 
 2252. {Sir A. CampbrU.) Do you recollect a cir- 
 cular that was issued from the War Department, and 
 which was afterwards withdrawn, intimating an in- 
 tention to purchase from tiio men the rifles they had 
 purchased with their own means ? — Yes ; I do. 
 
 2253. Would many of the volunteers in your com- 
 pany have availed themselves of that offer ? — Yes ; 
 they would. 
 
 2254. Tlio majority of them ? — Yes. 
 
 2255. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Does any portion of 
 the funds of your company now go to providing 
 prizes for the company to shoot for ? — No portion 
 whiitever ; the money for those purposes is raised 
 in the neighbourhood, quite independently of the 
 annual subscriptions. 
 
 2256. Have you not once a year a meeting, when 
 the company's prizes are shot for ? — Yes. 
 
 2257. Are not those prizes generally given either 
 by the officers or by honorary members ? — Yes. 
 
 2258. {Lieut.- Col. Barttelot.) Your corps, I believe, 
 like many others, have a great difficulty about the 
 band ? — Very great. 
 
 2259. But I believe the expenses of your band are 
 very small upon the whole ? — ^Yes ; very small in- 
 deed. 
 
 2260. What do you do for a band now ? — We have 
 a band, but we pay them so much a head when we 
 want them. 
 
 2261. From what source is that money obtained ? 
 — I have the management of that entirely, and 1 
 collect it from the public in the town. 
 
 2262. It is not part of the funds of the corps ? — It 
 is not. 
 
 2263. Are any of your bandsmen effective mem- 
 bers ? — Some of them are, not all. 
 
 2264. Do they sometimes give up their instruments 
 and go into the ranks ? — Some of them do. 
 
 2265. {Lord Elcho.) Do you believe that there is a 
 great readiness on the part of your men to give 
 their time on service ? — I believe there is. 
 
 2266. Is there any feeling on their part, that if 
 they give their time on service they ought not to be 
 called upon for more ? — -Yes. 
 
 2267. Have you heard that feeling expressed ? — 
 Yes, I have. 
 
 2268. Is that the general feeling amongst the men ? 
 — Yes, I know that that is the feeling. 
 
 2269. ( Viscount Hardinge.) The individual mem- 
 bers of your corps have not been put to any expense ? 
 — Very few of them ; the greater proportion of them 
 have not been. 
 
 2270. I think you stated that 8 or 10 provided 
 their own uniforms ? — 25 or 30 of them provided 
 their own uniforms. 
 
 2271. Then the accoutrements have been provided 
 out of the company's funds ? — Yes, for all the rest. 
 
 Mr. 
 II'. Lintott. 
 
 17 June 1862. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Major Nathaniel Bousfield examined. 
 
 2272. {Chairman.) You are major of the 1st 
 Lancashire Rifle Volunteer Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 2273. Of how many companies does that corps 
 consist ? — At present it consists of 10, but we have 
 applied to augment them to 1 3. 
 
 2274. Is yours a consolidated battalion ? — Yes, it 
 was originally an administrative battalion, but we 
 broke it up and formed a consolidated regiment. 
 
 2275. How long have you belonged to that corps ? 
 — Nine years. I have been working at volunteer- 
 ing all that time ; and I offered the services of the 
 corps in 1857 to the Government. The corps was 
 accepted on the 9th June 1859, and I was commis- 
 sioned as captain on the 11th. 
 
 2276. You say that the corps consisted originally 
 of 10 companies, and that it is now about to be 
 increased to 13 ? — It exists now as a consolidated 
 regiment. I was commissioned as captain of one 
 company in 1859, and in May 1860 it was formed 
 into a battalion, of which I was lieutenant-colonel. 
 
 2277. Of what class of men is your corps com- 
 posed ? — The 1st company was composed almost 
 entirely of gentlemen, all jjretty nearly equal in rank 
 and position, merchants and brokers, and the sons of 
 gentlemen connected with business in Liverpool ; but 
 now we have increased in numbers and we have 
 taken in some of the better class of tradesmen, their 
 sons and assistants also ; we have so formed three 
 companies of artizans. 
 
 2278. I presume that you have a regimental fund ? 
 — We have raised it entirely by subscriptions amongst 
 ourselves of one guinea, which each man pays ; origi- 
 nally we paid two guineas a piece each, and the 
 honorary members do it now ; but eaich man pays one 
 guinea at least. 
 
 2279. Do you include the artizans ? — Yes, they pay 
 by instalments. 
 
 2280. Do they pay one guinea per annum ?— Yes, 
 they pay it in the course of the year ; the captain 
 
 2 
 
 Maj. N. 
 Bou-ifield.
 
 100 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN I5EF0RE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Muj. N. 
 Jlousjield. 
 
 17 June ISiii 
 
 arranges how ho will receive it ; he receives it either 
 weekly, or nioiithly, or quarterly. 
 
 2281. How is the money so raised expended ? — Tn 
 storehouse accommodation, band, and in a storekeeper ; 
 and until the Government gave us a drill instructor, 
 in a drill instructor ; a great deal of the drill instruc- 
 tion was given by a few old members of the drill club, 
 who were competent to give instruction. 
 
 2282. Have you a rifle range ? — Yes ; we have one 
 large range for the whole force, which Colonel (ilad- 
 stone originally did a good deal for, and afterwards 
 there was a subscription got up by friends in the 
 town. It did not raise much, only 3,000/. altogether, 
 of which Colonel Boiu-ne's brigade of artillery received 
 a portion, and the loth received a portion, and a 
 portion was allotted for a new rifle range, in which 
 all regiments share. 
 
 2283. The rifle range was purchased ? — No ; 
 Colonel Gladstone, I believe, spent 870/., Major 
 Tinley about 146/., and the rest has been made up 
 by subscriptions from gentlemen, and from the fund 
 alluded to previously, about 800/. ; but last year I 
 am sorry to say that we found there was a little 
 deficiency, and I am afraid this year there will be a 
 larger deficiency. 
 
 2284. What is the annual cost of your rifle range ? 
 — I do not think we can keep it up much under 
 1,000/. a year. 
 
 2285. Do you give any additional pay to your ad- 
 jutant beyond the Government allowance ? — No. 
 
 2286. Nor to the drill Serjeants ? — No ; except 
 when we use them as storekeepers. We have two 
 storehouses; we had three, but one company joined 
 me in the neighbourhood and brought in a storehouse 
 about a mile and a half out of town. It is used also 
 for schools, and a very nice building it is. That was 
 raised by the neighbourhood for 60U/. or 700/. ; that 
 is our own. 
 
 2287. Is this storehouse the armoury ? — Yes, and 
 the storehouse. 
 
 2288. Are the arms all kept in store ? — Yes ; and 
 we think that is a very bad plan to allow any to be 
 kept out, as they get neglected. 
 
 2289. Do you pay men to superintend the cleaning ? 
 ■ — Yes, and tlie men cost us on the average 15s. a 
 week, and wo have to find them quarters, coais, and 
 gas. 
 
 2290. Are not the men drilled and taught to clean 
 their own arms ? — Yes, they are all instructed, but 
 the difficult}' is that we do not wish them to take 
 them out of the storehouse, and I believe it is the 
 wish not only of the officers but of the head constable 
 and also the mayor that we sliould not let the arms 
 get straggling about ; we keep them in good store- 
 houses and it costs us nearly 300/. a year. 
 
 2291. Are those storehouses in your own drill 
 ground ? — No, we have one general drill ground, for 
 which v/'e are indebted to Colonel Bourne, at Mount 
 Vernon, within a quarter of an hour or twenty 
 minutes' march from the storehouses ; that is a large 
 ground ; about 2,000 men have been put into it. 
 
 2292. Are the storehouses in different parts of the 
 town ? — Yes. There is one in the south, one in the 
 north, and one in another locality near at Fairfield. 
 
 2293. So that they are near the headquarters of 
 the different companies ? — Yes. I can assemble them 
 in front of St. George's Hall v,'ithout marching more 
 than for ten minutes from any storehouse. 
 
 2294. Was any part of your funds expended in 
 jiroviding uniforms for the artizans ? — None whatever. 
 The artizan companies joining us have been prin- 
 cipally clothed liy their officers ; there is an arrange- 
 ment made among themselves to paying by instal- 
 ments, but of that we know nothing, we do not in- 
 terfere with them. 
 
 2295. When the present uniforms are worn out do 
 j-ou anticipate that there will be any difficulty iu get- 
 ting the men to supply themselves with new ones ? — ■ 
 In the artizan companies I think decidedly that there 
 will be a difficulty, but none, I think, with regard to 
 the others, and if we were assisted by Government 
 
 in storehouses it would be everything ; our guinea a 
 year subscription is very heavy on the men. As to 
 the clothing of the men who find themselves, I appre- 
 hend no difficulty in the renevi'al of that. 
 
 2296. You spoke of assistance to be received from 
 the Government, in what way do you think that 
 Avould be most beneficially applied for your corps ? — 
 In paying the rent of storehouses, or in something 
 being done towards it ; in the payment of arm 
 cleaners, and in paying the rent of armouries, and in 
 instruction of buglers, also a bugle major ; I think 
 tliat something ought to be done in the way of lodging 
 allowance for the adjutant ; he has to keep up his 
 appearance as a gentleman. I also think that the 
 practice range ought to be found, and, what is some 
 consideration with us, an allowance made to meet the 
 expense of transporting the men to and from the 
 ranges. I also think tliat an increase in the allowance 
 of ammunition is wanted. I believe that 110 i-ounds 
 are now given, and if they were inci-eased to 220 it 
 would, I think, be sufficient. At present it is a very 
 serious item the additional ammunition that is wanted, 
 because the men shoot very much, and it is very 
 serious for a man to give up his time and pay for his 
 ammunition. 
 
 2297. Do you think that any assistance that might 
 be rendered should be given to the colonel ? — No, I 
 should rather prefer that the colonel of each regi- 
 ment should send in a statement to the Government 
 authorities showing what he pays for his storehouse, 
 and the Government sliould give so much for each 
 man for that storehouse, and the j^early rent account 
 should be sent up here. 
 
 2298. Do you mean that the Government should 
 pay the actual cost ? — Yes ; I am rather against a 
 capitation grant as to the men ; we wish to retain 
 our self-supporting and gentlemanly feeling ; we 
 would ratlier have some assistance by the Govern- 
 ment giving us a good storehouse and a good drill 
 ground, and a good practice ground, leaving the men 
 to find their own uniforms and provide their own 
 expenses for their bands and so on. 
 
 2299. Can you estimate the cost of keeping u]> 
 these storehouses ? — In Liverpool we think it is very 
 necessary that any storehouses that we take should 
 be near the Exchange, nearly all the men being 
 engaged in the focus of business all round there ; any 
 storehouse that was remote would be of no use ; we 
 should want to get a house that was sufficient to 
 accommodate a number of men, and I dare say that 
 would cost us from 150/. to 200/. a year; ancl then 
 as to cleaners of arms, we cannot get them much 
 under los. a week. Wages are very high in Liver- 
 jjool ; a man can earn 3s. 6d. a day as a porter. 
 
 2300. What would be the expense for the whole of 
 your regiment that you think ought to be defrayed 
 by the Government ? — At present the guinea a year 
 for 700 men is pretty well spent, and I think to keep 
 up our regiment the Government ought to give us 
 between 400/. and 500/. a year. 
 
 2301. How much would that be per head ? — About 
 14«. 6rf., we have 700 men, perhaps more than that 
 we ought to have, including a practice range. 
 
 2302. {Lord Ovcrstonc.) You think that it would 
 be desirable for the Government to advance a sum of 
 500/. for 700 men ?— Yes. 
 
 2303. {Lord Elcho.) That is not to include any 
 clothing, is it ? — No, I think for an artizan fund it 
 would be quite inadequate, or for any corps in which 
 clothing was required. 
 
 2304. {Lord Overslonc.) You think that clothing 
 is not required ? — Not for my regiment. 
 
 2305. {Lord Elcho.) But you have stated that it 
 would be required by the three companies of artizans ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2306. Those have been clothed by their officers ? 
 — Yes. and by the men to a certain extent. 
 
 2307. {Lord Ovcrstoite.) Of what number does 
 your whole corps consist? — I think about 698. 
 
 2308. Do you think there is any ground to antici-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FOKCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 101 
 
 pate a Mlinn; off in their numbers except from pe- 
 cuniar}' considerations ? — No, certainly not. 
 
 2;5()S). But from pecuniar}' considerations you do 
 anticipate eonsideralde ditliculty ? — Yes. 
 
 2310. Have I understood your evidence correctly 
 that you think an advance of about .JOO/. by the (lo- 
 vernment would remove that danjier ?— Yes, yearly. 
 
 2311. That sum to include the cost connected with 
 clothing as well as every other source of expense ? — 
 Not clothing. 
 
 2312. My object is to ascertain from you what 
 advance of money by the Government would, in your 
 judgment, bo sufficient to place a corps of 69S men in 
 a complete and satisfactory state, all things included ? 
 — Including clothing and everything, fully 30s. a 
 man. 
 
 2313. In your opinion, what is the total of pecu- 
 niary amount which it would be necessary for the 
 Government to advance in order to enable you to 
 maintain your corps of 698 men in an efficient state ? 
 — By that question I suppose I am to understand you 
 to include what I said about adjutants ? 
 
 2314. Everything that you think should be included, 
 but including nothing which you think ought not to 
 be included ? — To include everything, adjutant's 
 allowance being part, I should say 30^. a man would 
 be at least required. 
 
 2315. Our object is to ascertain exactly yom' view 
 with respect to the management of your own corps of 
 the cost necessary to maintain it, and do you think 
 that an advance by the Government of 30s. per head 
 would be sufficient to maintain your corps in a per- 
 manent state of efficiency ? — No ; in my own coi'ps 
 an advance of from 15s. to 1/. would do, as I should 
 have assistance from the men. 
 
 2316. By your corps I meant the complete regi- 
 ment to which you belong ? — Yes, with the exception 
 perhaps of three companies ; the other men, I think, 
 would support themselves. 
 
 2317. You have given the number of 698 men, and 
 I understand that those three companies are included ? 
 — Y'es. 
 
 2318. The object of my question is to ascertain 
 what amount of advance by the Government would, 
 in your judgment, be necessary to enable you to main- 
 tain a corps of 698 men in a state of permanent effi- 
 ciency, understanding that number to include the 
 three artizan corps which you have alluded to ?■ — For 
 198 men I would require 30s. a man ; the remainder 
 to have 1/. to do it handsomely, that is for oOO ; 198 
 at 30s. 
 
 2319. I understood you to say that you think the 
 form of capitation grant is objectionable ? — Yes. 
 
 2320. You thiidc that it would offisnd the feeling of 
 independence in the members of your corps ? — Yes, 
 and they all desired me to represent that strongly, 
 that they Avould rather iind their own clothes, but 
 that they wished to be assisted in the matter of the 
 storehouse. I know very little of the views of the 
 198 men. 
 
 2321. Your general impression is that a capitation 
 grant is objectionable ? — Yes, very much so. 
 
 2322. And that assistance, if such be derived from 
 the Government, should come in the form of bearing 
 the expenses of certain branches of the service ? — 
 Quite so. 
 
 2323. Have you considered whether any branches 
 of the service could be specified that would be appli- 
 cable to the volunteer corps generally throughout the 
 kingdom, or do you think it would be necessary to 
 have separate regulations for each district or regi- 
 ment ? — I think separate regulations for each regiment 
 are necessary as the regiments in my own town 
 vary a good deal ; there is a very fine regiment under 
 Colonel McCorquodale, a very excellent and efficient 
 regiment, and it is entirely composed of printers and 
 artizans. What the colonel's views might be I cannot 
 say, but I should think in his case it would be desir- 
 able that he should have a capitation grant. 
 
 2324. It is your impression that it would not be 
 practicable or expedient to lay down any general rule 
 
 either in faTour of a capitation grant or condemna- 
 tory of it, and that you might resort to a capitation 
 grant in some cases, and to a more indirect mode of 
 supplying pecuniary assistance in others ? — Yes. 
 
 232.J. Can you lay down any general rule by which 
 you tliiiik these cases might be distinguished? — I 
 shouhl distinguish them by making the connnanding 
 ofiici'r give a return stating the necessities of his men 
 and what he wanted in one form or other, such as 
 storehouse accommodation, arm cleaners, and so forth; 
 he might state what he required, and send in an esti- 
 mate tor his regiment annually, draw the amount that 
 was allowed from the Government, apply it to the 
 purposes stated, and return the vouchers to the 
 Government. 
 
 2326. Would it be a desirable course to put it to 
 the discretion of each colonel commanding to say 
 whether he wished to have assistance in the form of 
 a capitation grant or in any other indirect mode ? — 
 I think it would be. 
 
 2327. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Would you propose 
 that if further aid were given, whether directly or 
 indirectly, it should be calculated at so much a head 
 for every effective man, or that it should be calculated 
 at so much ahead for the strength of the corps indu- 
 ing non-effectives ? — I think that non-effectives ought 
 to be included, taking into consideration that many 
 men become non-effective by their idleness, but many 
 of such men would come forward at anytime that 
 you wanted them. I have many of that kind who 
 are not included in what I have estimated ; the num- 
 ber that 1 have given here is from the return of 
 effective volunteers, that is 698. I have, I dare say, 
 of honorary members and so on perhaps a couple of 
 hundred more. 
 
 2328. Do these men fall in on the occasion of bri- 
 gade reviews and so on ? — Yes, except honorary. 
 
 2329. Do you find them tolerably efficient ? — Yes ; 
 there is a great deal of musketry practice going on in 
 our regiment, and we are very comfortable ; we work 
 very much con amnre ; the officers and men work very 
 well together, and tiiere is a great connecting link 
 between them, as they are all men engaged in busi- 
 ness. 
 
 2330. Have you ever heard any complaint made by 
 the men who have attended upwards of 24 days of 
 drill, that the non-efficient men come in on review 
 days and brigade drills and throw the other men out ? 
 — Very often, but we generally work them in such a 
 way as to prevent that, but it does happen to a cer- 
 tain extent ; we always require the officers to use 
 up those non-efficient men in such a way as to prevent 
 it if possible. 
 
 2331. Did you not state that the range will cost 
 1,000/. a year ? — Yes, to keep it up, but that is for 
 the whole force in Liverpool ; we all share in it. 
 
 2332. Is that 1,000/. a year paid for the rent of the 
 ground ? — Yes, and for the permanent stalf on the 
 ground, markers, a man to tell off the ranges, 
 and a sujierintendent ; we want a good superin- 
 tendent ; Captain Bushby was our superintendent 
 last year, and we paid him 300/. a year, but he has 
 resigned now. 
 
 2333. How many Government Serjeants have you ? 
 — I am entitled to three, but I have not got three ; I 
 had only two ; one died the other day. 
 
 2334. Cannot those Government Serjeants be em- 
 ployed in cleaning the arms ? — They refuse to do tliat 
 as a general rule. 
 
 2335. When you offer them extra remuneration for 
 it ? — Without that they will not do it ; they refuse to 
 do it as part of their duty. 
 
 2336. Would it not be cheaper to give them some 
 extra gratuity ? — Wc have done that, and wo have 
 got old soldiers in our storehouses who do it, but as a 
 general rule the drill instructors object to cleaning 
 arms. 
 
 2337. Would it bo possible or desirable for the 
 volunteers to clean their own arms ?. — It is not pos- 
 sible, I think, for business men. 
 
 2338. They could not give the necessary time to 
 
 3 
 
 Mnj. N. 
 Jiditsjicld. 
 
 IT June 1862.
 
 102 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMVUSSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj- ^- it ? — No, they would never be in good condition. I 
 Bousfiekl. j^^^g jjj^(j ^jjgjjj jjj ^.gjj^p fQj. gg^en weeks, and they 
 
 have cleiined their own arms. 
 
 2339. ( Chairman.) How many coT-ps make use of the 
 rifle range which you say costs 1,000/. a year ? — There 
 are five regiments of artillery and engineers, and five 
 regiments of rifles, besides some straggling companies. 
 
 2340. How many thousand men altogether ? — I 
 think there are somewhere about 4,000 men, cavalry, 
 artillery, engineers, and rifles. 
 
 2341. (F/«co!<?;/l?«/-c;w(7e.) Do you think that if any 
 further aid were given, the volunteers would mind 
 being put under stricter control ? — I do not think that 
 the control could be made more strict than it is, we 
 are very strict in our corps ; if a serjeant misbehaves 
 himself on parade we reduce him on parade, and cut 
 his stripes oflt', just as they do in the line. 
 
 2342. You mean the volunteer Serjeants ? — Yes. 
 
 2343. You have no difficulty in enforcing dis- 
 cipline ? — I have had them in camp for seven weeks 
 at a time and they have done sentry duty all through 
 the night. 
 
 2344. How many men have you had in camp ? — 
 I had 220 in 1860, and in 1861 I had 150. 
 
 2345. For how many days did you have them in 
 
 camp ? I had them in camp for seven weeks, and I 
 
 lived with them myself under canvas. 
 
 2346. How could they afibrd to lose their time ? — 
 They did not lose their time ; they went to business 
 durin"- the day ; they got up at six o'clock in the 
 morning, and went into town to business, and they 
 were out again at six o'clock, and in bed at 10 o'clock. 
 
 2347. Did you find that answer ? — Yes, very well, 
 and a good many of the men want another camp this 
 year ; we found that there was a man in Liverpool 
 who had a quantity of tents in his possession, and we 
 hired them. 
 
 2348. (Lord Elcho.) How was the expense met? 
 
 The men paid the expenses themselves, 10s. a 
 
 month, and four men slept in each tent ; they paid 
 2s. 6d. a month for their tent, and four of them 
 occupied a tent, except the officers. 
 
 2349. How did you furnish the tents ? — We had 
 several cart loads of stores taken out. We found a 
 man in Liverpool who had a large quantity of India 
 rubber Crimean sheets, and we lined the bottom of 
 the tents with them after a medical man had inspected 
 the ground, and we covered those with straw, and we 
 used beds such as they have on board ships, and it 
 cost us about 4s. a bed. 
 
 2350. Did they use a palliasse ? — Yes, a little 
 palliasse, and most of the men brought their own 
 blankets and railway rugs, and the tietter part of the 
 corps had got good military great coats with a cape. 
 
 2351. Had you any other fittings for the tents 
 besides the beds ? — They bought washhand basins. 
 
 2352. What were your washing arrangements ? — 
 We found that a tripod formed in this way {describiiiff 
 the sa?nf) with a tin basin, answered the purpose very 
 well. There was one at the back of each tent, or at 
 the rear of each line of tents. We had them in lines 
 of four. 
 
 2353. How many basins did you have to half a 
 dozen men ? — They found them all themselves ; we 
 did not care how many they had, and the total ex- 
 pense was 10s. a man. 
 
 2354. That sum paid for the hire of the tents, the 
 straw, and the carriage ? — Yes. 
 
 2355. But it did not pay for the basins and those 
 things, did it ? — No ; but it paid for a man watching 
 during the day time, to see that nobody stole any- 
 thing. 
 
 2356. Did the men clean their own things ? — Yes ; 
 they cleaned their own. We contracted for a man to 
 furnish a canteen ; and they could get a breakfast or 
 tea for 6^., and on (Sunday the dinner was Is. 6d., 
 and the officers dined with the men. 
 
 2357. There being four men in a tent ? — Yes. 
 
 2358. Could you have put conveniently 6 in a 
 tent ? — Yes ; but wo generally let them sort them- 
 selves ; friends went together. 
 
 2359. Were they beU tents ? — Yes ; I slept in 
 one. 
 
 2360. Did each officer have a tent to himself? — 
 It was just as he liked. I slept with a brother 
 officer. 
 
 2361. Did you find it inconvenient ? — Not at all. 
 
 2362. What was the charge to the officers for 
 fitting up their tents ? — It was very much on the 
 same scale as the men's, as Spartan-like as possible. 
 I think that I had the worst tent in the camp. I set 
 an example. We had visiting rounds and everything 
 complete, and we sunk wells and built latrines ; we 
 were on sandy ground on the sea shore, and it was a 
 capital place for it. I had only two cases of drunken- 
 ness, and I dismissed one man from the service ; the 
 other was a corporal, and I took his stripes off. 
 
 2363. Did the health of the men suffer ? — No ; it 
 very much improved. 
 
 2364. Had you any bad weather while you were 
 in camp ? — We had only four fine days the whole of 
 the time we were there ; it rained nearly every night. 
 
 2365. Had you trenches dug round the tents ? — 
 Yes ; and everything of that kind. 
 
 2366. Did the men pitch their own tents ? — Yes ; 
 and they struck them by bugle sound. 
 
 2367. {Col. MacMurdo.) Had they been pro- 
 perly drilled for the purpose ? — Yes ; I drilled them 
 myself. 
 
 2368. {Lord Elcho.) You had no stafi' to help you ? 
 — No ; except the officers of the regiment. No mili- 
 tary officers except the adjutant. 
 
 2369. {Major Harcotirt.) You have stated that 
 it might be desirable to provide some of the men with 
 uniforms, how would you do that ? — It should be done, 
 I think, in cloth or something of that sort. An allow- 
 ance of so much for a suit and for making up. 
 
 2370. What security would the Government have 
 that a man who was so supplied with a uniform 
 would not leave the regiment in a fortnight ? — None. 
 There is the difficulty, and I am strongly against 
 anything that is not self-supijorting. 
 
 2371. You are of opinion that it would be almost 
 impossible to provide uniforms in any way for the 
 men ? — I am very much against anything but self- 
 supporting volunteers, men who find their own 
 clothes. Assistance ought to be given to the head- 
 quarters of the regiment, but the clothes, I think, the 
 men ought to find. 
 
 2372. {Lord Overstone.) You think that all that 
 may be called personal to each man should be pro- 
 vided by himself ; but that which applied generally 
 to the regiment might be provided by the Grovern- 
 ment ? — Yes. 
 
 2373. {Lord Elcho.) From your knowledge of the 
 volunteer force, you are able to say that jaart of it is 
 capable of doing what you say the whole ought to do ? 
 — Yes, there is Colonel Bourne's regiment, the 4th 
 brigade of artillery, and my own. 
 
 2374. On your principle you would lose three com- 
 panies in all probability ? — Yes ; but I do not find 
 any good in these working men, except in such a case 
 as Colonel Mclver's regiment. 
 
 2375. Is that composed of artizans ? — Yes ; Colonel 
 Mclver and Colonel Clay are both large employers 
 of labour, and the men who form those regiments are 
 entirely in their own employ ; consequently if a man 
 should be disobedient he might lose 30s. a week 
 good pay. 
 
 2376. {Major Harcourt.) If the uniform that was 
 given remained the property either of the Govern- 
 ment or the corps, do you think you would find any 
 difficulty in getting the men to wear second hand 
 uniforms ? — -Yes. 
 
 2377. {Sir A. Campbell.) Are the men to whom 
 you have just referred officered by their own 
 employers? — In the case of Colonel Mclver's reigment 
 it is entirely so ; in the case of Colonel Clay's it is 
 not so. 
 
 2378. In those cases in which they are officered by 
 their own employers, do you think tliat in the case of 
 strikes or disputes about wages there might be some
 
 TO IVQUIRE INTO THE CONDITrox OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 103 
 
 inconvenience from such a mode of efficiency ? — I 
 sliould say not in Liverpool, the men not being mill 
 hands wo never hear of strikes much. The mill 
 owners in Rochdale rather opposed the movement ; 
 spinners generally have been very much against it. 
 
 2379. Was the original enrolment of your regi- 
 ment done by companies or otherwise ? — Uy com- 
 panies. 
 
 2380. You spoke, I think, of the proposed con- 
 solidation of the regiment into a smaller number of 
 companies V — My plan would be this : we take them 
 of course on the Government establishment ; we 
 return 13 companies, and there arc many men who 
 as we have gone on from the first have got into com- 
 missions who have no right to be there ; who are 
 totally incompetent as officers, not possessing the 
 proper qualifications, and not being gentlemen. 
 
 2381. But they obtained their commissions ? — 
 Yes, they got 50 or 60 men on paper and they sent 
 them in to the lord-lieutenant, and they were ap- 
 pointed captain, lieutenant, or ensign. 
 
 2382. {Lord Elcho.) They practically bought their 
 commissions ? — Not always. 
 
 2383. {Sir A. Campbell.) In case of the number 
 of companies in your regiment being reduced, how 
 would you dispose of the commissions of those 
 officers ? — I think that is a little matter which might 
 be left to the colonel ; we generally arrange that 
 among ourselves. 
 
 2384. Should you anticipate no difficulty in trans- 
 ferring men from one company to another ? — No ; we 
 had much difficulty at first, but we have broken that 
 do^vn ; we equalize them in any way that we like. 
 
 2385. You said that in the original enrolment of 
 the men they were got together on paper and officers 
 were gazetted who were not proper persons to be 
 officers ? — Not in all instances. 
 
 2386. Was any inquiry made by the lord-lieu- 
 tenants into the mode of the enrolment or the fitness 
 of the officers for their posts ? — I am not in the least 
 aware ; in my own case I was inquired into. Colonel 
 Wilson Patten signed my commission. I attended 
 before him in uniform, and I went through a regular 
 examination by him. 
 
 2387. Practically were the officers elected by the 
 men ? — Practically they were in eveiy case. 
 
 2388. Whoever was elected by the men was ap- 
 pointed without any trouble ? — Yes, practically that 
 was the fact. 
 
 2389. {Viscount Hardinge.) And that you think 
 very undesirable ? — Yes, I think that every officer 
 should be subjected to an examination. 
 
 2390. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you think that if 
 the appointment of officers was placed in the hands 
 of some other authority than that of the lord-lieu- 
 tenant that that difficulty would be avoided ? — No, I 
 should say not. I think that lord-lieutenants have the 
 power to fully examine every officer. 
 
 2391. {Chairman.) Is not that done in the militia ? 
 — Yes, and in the line too. In our regiment no man 
 can be promoted until he has passed through an 
 examination before his next step. 
 
 2392. {Lord Overstone.) Can you state shortly 
 what course or system of measures you would recom- 
 mend for the purpose of securing the permanent 
 efficiency of the present volunteer movement ? — First 
 of all an examination of all officers as to efficiency, 
 a monetary grant for a storehouse, drill instructors, 
 and arm cleaners, adjutants with lodging allowance, 
 instruction of buglers, practice grounds and transit to 
 and from, and an increased allowance of ammunition. 
 
 2393. You think that all those things ought to be 
 provided for by Government aid ? — Yes ; and espe- 
 cially that the examinations should be left to Govern- 
 ment officers. 
 
 2394. Being so provided for, you think that the 
 efficiency of the corps might be efl'ectually maintained ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2395. {Lord Elcho.) That answer is given, is it 
 not, upon the assumption that it is a self-sustaining 
 force V — Yes ; I assume that if that is given by the 
 
 Government, even though it was not entirely a self- 
 sustaining force, the officers arc willing to come for- 
 ward ; and wo have not quite drained the towns dry. 
 
 2396. I thiidv you stated with regard to a portion of 
 your own regiment, three coni|)anies, tliat more would 
 be required in their case than in the others ? — Yes. 
 
 2397. In any re(iuisition tliat you might make, you 
 would have to ask for more for them ? — Yes. 
 
 2398. If it should bo proved that half or two-thirds 
 of the force is in the condition of your three com- 
 panies, would not those views which you have put on 
 pajwr be modified ? — Certainly, if that was proved. 
 
 2399. {Lord Overstone.) I understand the views 
 you have just expressed to be your reply to the 
 general question as to the system which you think it 
 expedient to adopt to maintain tho present efficiency 
 of the volunteer movement? — Yes, my own opinion is 
 that if the force is small no man should be a volunteer 
 who is not self-supporting. I consider that the place 
 of those men who require clotiiing and maintaining is 
 in the militia. 
 
 2400. The heads already enumerated by you are 
 those which you suggest to this Commission as being 
 the proper ones to attend to in order to sustain the 
 volunteer movement ? — Yes. 
 
 2401. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelof.) What is the cost of 
 your uniform ? — 5L for tunic, shako, forage cap, belts,' 
 pouch, and trowsers. ' 
 
 2402. Any great coat ? — Yes, but that is extra ; 
 there is a cape to take ofl\ they all buy that. 
 
 2403. What is the expense of your band ? — We 
 give 100?. a-year to the band. 
 
 2404. Out of the funds ?— Yes. 
 
 2405. {Sir A. Campbell^ In case your suggestion 
 were adopted, what number of the 4,000 men in 
 Liverpool could you maintain, do you think ? — I 
 should say most of them ; they are all most of them 
 self-supporting with us ; many of them pay in instal- 
 ments, but they all pay, and we rather think that that 
 is the safety of it ; if you gave them clothes they 
 would be so dissatisfied ; I have seen several instances 
 of that, men will not wear second hand clothes. 
 
 2406. Do you think it is important that a decision 
 should soon be come to ou this subject ? — 1 think the 
 sooner the better ; at pi-esent we shall get a little into 
 debt, I am afraid, with the expenses of the storehouse 
 and so on ; and there is a difficulty in getting sub- 
 scriptions from the men, although they do pay gene- 
 rally ; at one time they were in arrear, and I went 
 round myself, and got in nearly all the money. 
 
 2407. Do you think you shall lose numbers ? — I 
 think so ; the officers have paid a good deal one way 
 aud the other, and I do not think they will stand it 
 much longer ; another thing is that the honorary 
 members may not subscribe again ; they did a good 
 deal at first, but I do not think that they will renew 
 their subscriptions so much as they did. 
 
 2408. i^Lord Overstone.) Do you think that inter- 
 vention by the Government in a pecuniary way, as 
 you have suggested, is a matter of pressing importance 
 as to time ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 2409. Do you think that there should be as little 
 delay as possible in coming to a decision ? — Yes ; 
 before the expiration of the next three months, if pos- 
 sible ; the half-year is always a trying time, and the 
 falling off always occurs at Christmas ; the men begin 
 to resign then, but I really feel that the great source 
 of any decay has been bad and inefficient officers. 
 
 2410. {Viscount Hardinye.) Have any officers in 
 your battalion attached themselves to a regiment 
 of the line to obtain instruction ? — No, I do not 
 think that any of thom have. I have been two or 
 three times with a regiment of the line. 
 
 2411. Do you find that there is a disinclination on 
 the part of those officers, of whom you have spoken 
 as having been elected by the men, to make them- 
 selves acquainted with their duties ? — In some in- 
 stances ; not particularly in my regiment. I have 
 had two bad officers, but they are both going. 
 
 2412. Does your adjutant report to your colonel 
 those officers whom he considers inefficient ? — I 
 
 4 
 
 Maj. N. 
 Jiousfield. 
 
 17 .)une 1862.
 
 104 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. iV. 
 Sousfield. 
 
 7 June 1SG2. 
 
 always attend all tlie officers' drills aud report to the 
 colonel. 
 
 2413. (Lord Elcho.) How do you get rid of bad 
 officers ? — I find that the best aud the safest plan is 
 to work with your men. 
 
 24'14. How do you get rid of bad officers ; do you 
 tell them that they liad better go ? — I call them out 
 to the front and ask them to put the regiment through 
 its manceuvres. I think that when a man has been a 
 year in a commission aud cannot move a company lie 
 ought to go. 
 
 2415. You have had nine years' experience in 
 volunteering ? — Yes, constantly. 
 
 2416. From your knowledge of the volunteers and 
 their capacity for drill, what should you say would 
 be a sufficient number of drills to constitute efficiency ? 
 — I think you cannot do with less than 24; they 
 generally get a little more ; a review perhaps is about 
 to take place, and you coax them a little. 
 
 2417. When once a man has passed through his 
 24 drills, would not a smaller number than 24 drills 
 be afterwards sufficient? — No, I think they require 
 24 ; we have 12 monthly musters, when we expect 
 every man to turn out ; we threaten fines, but we do 
 not fine except in a very ilagi-ant case, when a man 
 comes on the ground in plain clothes, and stares at 
 the regiment we do fine ; good musters are best 
 obtained by working amongst the men themselves ; 
 we take care that the Serjeants are good men, and 
 we have a very good feeling iu the regiment. 
 
 2418. ( Viscoimt Hardinge.) Do not you think that 
 those men who are really heart and soul in the move- 
 ment, generally would attend more than 24 drills ? — 
 Yes, I have 150 men who I think have drilled and 
 been at rifle practice four or five times a week. 
 
 2419. Do not you think that if the Government gave 
 aid they would have a right to say, we must have the 
 regiments kept up as efficiently as they have hitherto 
 Ijeen ? — I do not see how you would enforce it. If 
 you said to the officers we shall withdraw the grant 
 unless you can do so and .so, it would not be the fault 
 of the field officers if they could not do it. 
 
 2420. Take the case of a capitation grant, might 
 not a capitation grant be given for every effective 
 member, or for every member who had gone through 
 24 days' drill ? — I think it ought to apply to the non- 
 effectives as well, because they work for us a good 
 deal and they give us a good dealof money towards it. 
 
 2421. (Lord Elcho.) If the Government tried to 
 apply more stringent rules, might it not happen that 
 the men would stay at home ? — Yes, and tliey would 
 defy you then ; the thing must be worked very deli- 
 cately, it must be done by good nature more than any 
 thing else, aud by the occasional use of a little badi- 
 nage and sometimes by trj'ing a little sterner method 
 if a man is saucy ; but it is quite a question as to the 
 way in which the officer handles his men. 
 
 2422. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to 
 attempt to use compulsion ? — You could not apply it. 
 
 2423. (Col. 3IacMurdo.) What is your opinion 
 as to the employment of the drill Serjeants. You have 
 two drill instructors in your corps, and you are en- 
 titled to three ? — Yes. 
 
 2424. Are the two drill instructors that are at- 
 tached to your corps fully employed ? — They have 
 nothing to do during the day ; their work is done at 
 night ; they have to attend the rifle range twice a 
 week, but very few of the men come, and they have 
 had nothing latterly to do ; they do nothing but walk 
 about in the day time ; they have plenty to do in the 
 evening. 
 
 2425. Is their conduct generally good ? — Yes ; but 
 a case occuri'ed lately in which I had a good deal of 
 trouble with a man ; he strangled himself with a 
 strap ; he had been in the habit of drinking quietly, 
 quite unknown to us ; I saw him almost nightly, but 
 I never saw this man drunk, but it turns out that he 
 did drink. 
 
 2426. Do you think that the Serjeants' having so 
 much spare time is injurious? — Yes; it leads to 
 drinking and general idleness. 
 
 2427. Could your regiment do with fewer serjeant 
 instructors ? — No ; the difficulty is on account of the 
 companies being scattered ; we cannot get a storehouse 
 big enough for us. 
 
 2428. Then you think no reduction would be ad- 
 visable ? — No, we want all three of them. 
 
 2429. Although they have plenty of spare time 
 during the day ? — Yes ; they might be employed in 
 cleaning arms, if ordered by Government as part of 
 their duty. 
 
 2430. Suppose those men were allowed to enter 
 into civil occupations, how do you think that would 
 work ; they might gain something by being so em- 
 ployed ? — They would be the very worst men that 
 could be employed by us. 
 
 2431. What do j'ou think they could gain by such 
 occupation ? — If a man was accustomed to produce 
 he might earn something, but these men are not at all 
 accustomed to produce ; they do not know anything 
 about handling cotton or sugar ; they come there and 
 they are perfectly useless for a time, except for por- 
 ters at halls, messengers, &c. ; of these places there 
 are few in Liverpool. 
 
 2432. What average wages do you think they 
 could earn ? — Probably at the rate of Ss. 6d. a day. 
 I do not think that they would be able to keep 
 up their appearance as they do, for men woi'king 
 amongst cotton must wear a mole-skin jacket, and get 
 up at six o'clock in the morning and work till six at 
 night, and that might disqualify them afterwards for 
 drilling men ; if they could get light work it would 
 be very useful, but there is very little of that to be 
 had in Liverpool; a warehouseman is as hardly 
 worked a man as anybody. 
 
 2433. But you think it desirable that the Serjeants 
 should get some light employment ? — Yes. 
 
 2434. It would not interfere with the discharge of 
 their duties ?— Except on Saturdays, and that is very 
 often a busy day in Liverpool. 
 
 2435. You stated just now that the Government 
 should aid the volunteers by making a larger allowance 
 of ammunition. At the last inspection none of your 
 men had had any shooting practice at all ; no actual 
 practice had beeu gone through in May ? — I find that 
 it is perfectly impossible to carry out the theoretical 
 instruction laid down by General Hay ; we have 
 musketry classes, but the men do not care for them. 
 
 2436. Will you inform me whether every man in 
 your regiment has had any ball practice ? — I should 
 say that every man has. 
 
 2437. Has every man fired his 90 rounds ? — I should 
 say not. 
 
 2438. What has become of that which is left ? — 
 We are keeping the annual allowance back ; I sup- 
 pose that we had no right to fire it until the men had 
 gone through their courses. 
 
 2439. Then you have the residue to fire off ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2440. Every enrolled member is entitled to 110 
 rounds in addition to the 90 ; have you fired away all 
 that ? — I should like to know this, whether we are 
 allowed to fire that gratuitous ammunition for prize 
 shooting. 
 
 2441. On what grounds do you require a greater 
 allowance of ammunition than 220 rounds per man ; 
 you tell me that the whole of the gratuitous supply of 
 90 rounds per man has not been fired away ? — I fancy 
 not. 
 
 2442. You are not certain that every man in your 
 battalion fires at all? — I am sure that they all fire ; I 
 do not think there is one who has nut. 
 
 2443. Do you think that every mau in the regiment 
 has fired away his gratuitous supply of 90 rounds ? — 
 No ; but I think of the total number in the regiment 
 at least 200 have fired away four times that supply ol 
 ammunition supplied on repayment. 
 
 2444. Are there a certain number of men wlio have 
 fired away four times that quantity, and a certain 
 other number of men who liave not fired away the 90 
 rounds ? — The men there have nearly all taken their 
 allowance on repayment.
 
 I 
 
 *|r- 
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 105 
 
 2445. If tliose men have not fired awjiy tho 90 
 rounds given by Government, they have certainly not 
 touched the 110 rounds which they would have to p;iy 
 
 for ? I think they have touched the 110 they have to 
 
 pay for, but not the 90 which they have not to pay 
 for. Wc have kept that back, in order to make the 
 men go through their classes in accordance with 
 A\hat we consider to be the regulations. Wc sell the 
 other to them at so much, and we put a little profit 
 on, on account of the transit down, and the expense 
 of escort. 
 
 The witness withdrew, 
 
 2446. Do you not consider 200 rounds of ammuni- 
 tion for the enrolled men an enormous quantity to fire 
 away ? — Yes, it is ; but we pay for a ]iortion of that. 
 
 2447. But still you say that is not enough ? — Yes ; 
 an increased allowance gratis, I mean ; we only get 
 90 rounds given to us. 
 
 2448. But you say that all that is not fired away ? 
 — No, we are keeping it, according to the rules ; we 
 let them fire it only as they go tlirough their classes. 
 
 2449. You want a larger gratuitous supply for 
 prize shooting ? — Yes. 
 
 Maj. iV. 
 
 Jiuiis/it'lJ, 
 17 June 1SG2. 
 
 Captain W. F. Campion examined. 
 2450. {Chairman.) You command the 13th Sussex 
 
 Rifle Volunteer Corps ? — -I do. 
 
 2451. Is your company part of an administrative 
 battalion ? — Yes, it is. 
 
 2452. It consists of one company ? — Yes. 
 
 245.3. How many men have you in your company ? 
 — Seventy-three of all ranks ; 64 rank and file. 
 
 2454. Do you fiud that you keep up your numbers 
 very well, or that they decline ? — Very fairly. Some 
 of the men of my company belong to a college near 
 to us, and sometimes there are several of them who 
 go away at once, and that of course reduces the 
 corps considerably ; but on the whole I think that 
 we keep up very much to what they were, without 
 increasing. 
 
 2455. From what college do you get the men you 
 referred to ? — St. John's College. 
 
 2456. Have you any artizans in your corps ? — 
 A very few. 
 
 2457. Have you any formers ? — Yes, I suppose 
 that more than a third of them are fiirmers. 
 
 2458. You have a fund, I presume ? — Yes, which 
 is collected not from the men, but from any subscribers 
 in the neighbourhood who will subscribe. 
 
 2459. Are those subscriptions from the honorary 
 members of the corps ? — Yes, they are. 
 
 2460. Out of that fund have you provided your 
 men with uniforms or not ? — No, they have provided 
 themselves with uniforms, with this exception, that 
 very often in the neighbourhood people will collect 
 funds to clothe them. 
 
 2461. The clothing forms no part of the expen- 
 diture out of your fund ? — None whatever. 
 
 2462. How often do you drill your men ? — That is 
 very uncertain, on account of the difliculty of getting 
 them together ; the company which I command ex- 
 tends over 12 parishes, and it is so very difficult, 
 particularly in harvest time, to get them together, 
 that it is always a matter of uncertainty ; but, gene- 
 rally speaking, about once a week we get them together, 
 but the attendance is more slack than it was. 
 
 2463. Do you get half of the strength of your 
 company together then ? — -Hardly. If we get together 
 25 men we think it is very good. 
 
 2464. Do you have occasionally battalion drill ? — 
 Yes, we have battalion drills. 
 
 2465. How many have you assembled at those 
 drills on the average ? — I think rather over 40 ; 
 perhaps over 50 of all ranks. 
 
 2466. ( Viscount Hardinge.') Including the baud ? 
 —Not including the band ; that would raise us to 
 about 70. 
 
 2467. {Chairman.') Have you a rifle range belong- 
 ing to the corps ? — Yes. ^ 
 
 2468. Have all of your men gone through the 
 courses ? — No ; a good many have ; but there are 
 some who, from ditierent circumstances, fiud it diffi- 
 cult to get practice. 
 
 2469. They have not all passed through musketry 
 drill ?— No. 
 
 2470. You have a drill instructor, I ])resurae ? — 
 I have been myself to Hythe, but ^^■e have no other 
 drill instructors ; we have a rifle seijeant, but he has 
 not been to Hythe. 
 
 2471. {Col. 3Iac31urdo.) His name is Waller, is 
 it not ? — Yes. 
 
 2472. {Chairman.) Is he competent to drill your 
 men ? — Perfectly. 
 
 2473. Is he paid by the Government? — Yes. 
 
 2474. Do you give him any allowance beyond what 
 he receives from the Government ? — Yes ; we pay 
 him 21. a quarter to take care of the arms. 
 
 2475. Do you see any difficulty in maintaining 
 your corps in its present state of efficiency ? — I think 
 not ; I do not feel any doubt but what wo could keep 
 up the present strength. 
 
 2476. You do not require any assistance from the 
 Government ? — No, not beyond what we have now, 
 the Serjeants were a very great boon to us, both 
 because we had always a difliculty in getting good 
 Serjeants, and because we can now have one uniform 
 system of drill. 
 
 2477. {Lieut. -Col. Barttelot.) Wlien the present 
 uniforms are worn out, shall you have any difficulty 
 in renewing them ? — I hardly know what to say 
 about that, I have no doubt but what the men will 
 all find them, but I am very averse to doing anything 
 in the way of giving uniforms. I find that those men 
 who have them given to them are the worst atten- 
 dants at drill. 
 
 2478. Do you find that the tradesmen and that 
 class of men attend better than the farmers, or the 
 farmers better than the tradesmen ? — I have not re- 
 mai'ked any difference in the two, I should say not ; the 
 tradesmen are generally nearer to the spot, and there- 
 fore on that ground they are perhaps better able to 
 attend. 
 
 2479. How do you provide for your travelling 
 expenses when 3'ou go to battalion drill ? — They are 
 paid out of the funds of the corps. 
 
 2480. Your corps wears a different coloured imi- 
 form from that of many in any battalion, do you not 
 think it an essential thing that they should all wear 
 the same uniform ? — Certainly, as soon as the uniforms 
 are worn out, as in two years they will be, we shall be 
 glad to do so, and iu fact we have begun it already. 
 
 2481. Do not your men object, being in a diffi^rent 
 coloured uniform, and therefore conspicuous, to be 
 taken away from your corps and put with another ? — 
 No, I do not think they do ; I never heard anything 
 said on that score. 
 
 2482. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Do you see your way 
 to clothing the whole battalion in one uniform colour ? 
 — I can hardly speak of any so well as of my own 
 corps, and I do not think wc should have any difficulty. 
 
 2483. Do you think that you and the other cap- 
 tains could agree as to the colour that it will be 
 desirable to adopt when the uniforms require to be 
 renewed ? — Perfectly ; I do not think that we should 
 have any difficulty about it. 
 
 2484. How are your travelling expenses paid when 
 you go to battalion drill ? — Out of the funds of the 
 corps. 
 
 2485. {Col. 3/ac3Iurdo.) What does it cost you? 
 — We have nothing but the travelling expenses to 
 meet ; the battalion meets at different places ; wc 
 meet, perhaps, atPetworth, which is 40 miles off", and 
 then at another place, close to where the corps 
 belongs. 
 
 2486. {Chairman.) When you meet 40 miles off, 
 have you railway communication iu that direction ? — 
 Yes, we have. 
 
 Capt. ir. F. 
 
 Cawpistn.
 
 106 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOllE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 17 June 1862. P'' 
 
 Capt. W. F. ' 2487. And the railway authorities, I presume, take 
 Campwn. ^^^ ^^ ^ j^^ ,.j^tg ^^f fj^^g ?— They take us at a reguhxr 
 ice which is fixed for volunteers, which is a penny 
 [I mile ; we should pay 3s. Ad. for 40 miles there aud 
 back. 
 
 2488. {Viscount Ilurdincje.) Your company can 
 generally reach the place where the battalion drill 
 takes place by railway ? — Always. 
 
 2489. Therefore your travelling expenses are 
 moderate ? — Yes. 
 
 2490. {Col. 3Iac3Iitrdo.) It costs you 3s. id. ? — 
 Yes, to the most distant point. 
 
 2491. Supposing you went to battalion drill at 
 Brighton, what is the distance ? — Eight or nine miles. 
 
 2492. It would be much cheaper, would it not, if 
 you belonged to a battalion there ? — Yes, that is very 
 true ; but I should mention as to that that our men 
 are particularly averse to that ; we are in an agri- 
 cultural district, and an agricultural district and a 
 town district do not amalgamate so well. I am quite 
 sure that if such a thing v.'as attempted it would 
 fail. 
 
 2493. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) It would almost 
 break up your company, would it not ? — I hardly 
 know that; for I hope that we are all too good 
 soldiers to do anything of that sort ; but I should be 
 sorry to see it tried. 
 
 2494. ( Viscount Bardinf/e.) Is there any subscrip- 
 tion in your corps ? — Not in the corps itself. 
 
 2495. Does not each member pay anything ? — No. 
 
 2496. Have you a balance in hand ? — Yes, 100/., 
 which is invested in stock. 
 
 2497. Have you a band, and if so, what does it 
 cost ? — We have a band, but it is supported by a 
 separate fund. 
 
 2498. Have you any members in your corps who 
 are provided with clothing out of the company's 
 funds ? — None. 
 
 2499. Do you find a drum and fife band sufficient ? 
 — ^It is much better to march to than anything else. 
 
 2500. Have you heard any complaints among the 
 members of the corps that the band is merely a drum 
 and fife band, and they wish for a regular band ?— 
 No. 
 
 2501. {Lord Elcho.) What does your band cost ? 
 — ^I am afraid I can hardly tell you that ; in the first 
 place, their uniforms are found out of a separate fund, 
 and those being found they cost us very little indeed, 
 we have merely the expense of their being taught ; 
 and then we pay out of the funds of the corps their 
 expense in going to battalion drills. 
 
 2502. They receive no pay? — No ; only a labourer's 
 pay for a day's work. 
 
 2503. Have you a drum major or somebody who 
 teaches them ? — Yes ; there is a tradesman in the 
 village who is competent to do that. 
 
 2504. Do you think that the incidental expenses of 
 your company can be permanently met by subscriptions 
 raised in the neighbourhood ? — Yes. 
 
 2505. Viewing it as a permanent force ? — Yes ; I 
 think so. 
 
 2506. {Lord Overslone.) Do your observation and 
 experience lead you to entertain any serious appre- 
 hension as to the maintenance of the present volunteer 
 force in a state of efficiency ?— No, I think not, not 
 from anything I have seen yet. If one looks back 
 merely to v-^hat happened in the war at the beginning 
 of the century, one might say that it might not be 
 permanent, but I do not refer to any present facts 
 that make me think so. 
 
 2507. Looking at the present times, do you enter- 
 tain any serious apprehension as to the maintenance 
 of the present volunteer force in its present state of 
 efficiency ? — No ; I tliink not. I think it is very 
 likely that many who have entered into it merely for 
 pleasure and amusement may leave it ; but I think 
 we shall retain the efficient men, and those are the 
 
 men that we really want to retain, and not those who 
 have entered into it merely from caprice. 
 
 2508. It is not your impression that any special 
 measures are now requisite for the purpose of maiu- 
 tainiug the volunteer force in a state of efficiency for 
 the purpose for which it was originated ? — I think 
 not ; I do not see anything to make it requisite. 
 
 2509. {Licut.-Col. Barttelot.) Have you found the 
 adjutant most useful in drill and iustrucliou ? — Yes, 
 very useful indeed. 
 
 2510. {Viscount Hardinge.) How often does he 
 visit your company ? — That depends a little upon 
 how often I can get them together ; our corps extends 
 over 12 jjarishes, and it is so difficult to collect them 
 together in harvest time ; but tlie adjutant visits us 
 whenever we are able to collect together a sufficient 
 number, and generally speaking about once a month, 
 or once in two months. 
 
 2511. Would you say that the average amount of 
 his visits was once a month ? — I think not. 
 
 2512. {Sir A. Campbell.) Does he superintend the' 
 musketry instruction of the company ? — No, he does 
 not. 
 
 2513. He has not been perhaps to Ilythe ? — I 
 cannot answer that question. 
 
 2514. {Viscowit Hardinge.) Have you ever heard 
 any comjdaint on his part that he is inadequately 
 j)aid ? — No, I do not know him well enough to hear 
 anything of that sort. 
 
 2515. {Col. MacMurdo.) Is the time of your 
 Serjeant instructor fully employed in musketry duties ? 
 — No, certainly not ; he has a great deal of spare 
 time. 
 
 2516. Do you think that his spare time might be 
 occupied in private trade, or some occupation without 
 detriment to the service ? — I should doubt it very 
 much, for as soon as he began anything of that sort 
 of course he would not be so ready to give us in- 
 struction when he was required, and he is quite 
 content to be as he is. 
 
 2517. That is to be idle ? — He has a great deal of 
 spare time certainly, but he is always ready to 
 work. 
 
 2518. What employment do you give him besides 
 that of actually drilling the men ? — He drills the 
 recruits and he keeps the arms clean, and he has to 
 attend at all the parades and to keep the muster 
 roll and books of the corps. 
 
 2519. Do you keep him in the orderly room at head- 
 quarters ? — Yes. 
 
 2520. {Chriirman.) Are your arms kept in an 
 armoury ? — Yes, but there are many of them that are 
 out, and necessarily so, on account of the drill, and 
 also on account of the musketry. 
 
 2521. {Viscount Hardinge.) Are your muster rolls 
 accurately kept, or have you any reason to believe 
 that men are returned effectives who are not so ? — 
 No ; I know that every man who is returned is effec- 
 tive. 
 
 2522. Does your Government Serjeant clean the 
 arms ? — He keeps the arms clean. 
 
 2523. Does he receive any extra allowance for 
 that 1- — He receives 21. a month in addition to the 
 Government allowance. 
 
 2524. ( Col. 3IacMurdo.) Have you not served in 
 the cavalry ? — I was a very short time in the cavalry. 
 
 2525. You are living now in a hunting country ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2526. Is there any prospect of your raising any 
 mounted volunteers or light horse in that part of the 
 country ; there must be a great many unemployed 
 yeomen ? — I can hardly answer that question. 
 
 2527. Are there not manj' men in that part of the 
 countiy who would not enter into your corps, but who 
 might do service on horseback ? — There are plenty 
 who might do it, but without there was some pressure 
 I do not think there is any chance of it. 
 
 The witness withdrew.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 107 
 
 Jom^ Laird, Esq., M.P., examined. 
 
 2528. (Major Harcoiirt.) If facilities wore alForded 
 by the Admiralty to nny iiieinbers of tiio volunteer 
 corps on the coast for obtiiiniiiy; a knowlcdgo of gun 
 drill, are there any who would bo liliely to avail 
 themselves of such an opportunity ? — I think some of 
 them might. 
 
 2529. Will you be kind enough to state the views 
 which you may entertain on that subject ? — I 
 think it depends upon whether they would place gun- 
 boats at their disposal ; referring to working men, at 
 a time when they could get away from their work ; 
 if it were done in the summer evenings 1 think the 
 men would be quite willing to go. 
 
 2530. If facilities were afforded, you think there are 
 men who would avail themselves of the opportunity? 
 — Yes ; I think they would if it did not interfere 
 with their work. Drill takes place now after working- 
 hours, and in my son's works the men always get otf 
 at 12 or 1 o'clock on Saturday, and longer drills take 
 place on those occasions. 
 
 25.31. Is there an}' reason to suppose that it would 
 interfere with the Royal Naval Reserve, or that men 
 would be likely to bo drawn from it ? — No ; there 
 are many men in Liverpool who would not join the 
 reserve at all, and there are many men who would 
 not go to sea again ; I do not think that those men 
 would bind themselves to go at any particular time 
 without pay. If the Admiralty chose to give a spe- 
 cial bounty to men of that class they might add very 
 much to the naval reserve and get a very elRcient 
 class of men. 
 
 2532. Do you think there is a class of men who are 
 willing to learn their drill on board ships on the 
 same terms as other volunteers ? — In our corps I 
 think they would be very willing to go on board gun- 
 boats if it did not interfere with their regular work. 
 
 2533. ( Viscount Hardinqe.) How do the volunteer 
 artillery now practise ? — They practise at Rock Fort, 
 about four miles down the river. 
 
 2534. How do they go down ? — We generally hire 
 a steamer to take them down, and march them back 
 again, or take them by the usual ferry boats ; they 
 have guns in the works for drill, but they are not 
 allowed to fire shot there. 
 
 2535. There is no difficulty about the guns in the 
 fort being placed at tlieir disposal whenever they 
 choose to go there to drill ? — No. 
 
 2536. The only advantage, I presume, of their 
 being allowed to practise gunnery on board the gun- 
 boats, would be that they would be nearer to the gun- 
 boats than to the fort ? — Yes, a gun-boat would come 
 alongside the works and take the men to practice. 
 
 2537. You do not recommend that, they should 
 practice their drill on board a gun-boat, or do you 
 recommend that they should practice it at the fort ? 
 — I think that the men would be very willing to go 
 on board a gun-boat. 
 
 2538. {Cliairman.) You have taken great interest 
 in the volunleer movement ? — I have. 
 
 2539. Although you are not member of any corps ? 
 — No, I could not give time to act as an officer. 
 
 2540. 1 believe you have given very effective 
 support to the volunteers at Birkenhead ? — .Yes, as 
 much as I could. I will give the Commission a 
 short description of what has taken place at Birken- 
 head, and the present condition of things. We be- 
 gan in 1859, and the first four companies formed in 
 Cheshire were started at Birkenhead, viz., Birken- 
 head, Claughton, Wallasey, and Rock Ferry. The four 
 first companies were formed principally of the better 
 classes, and there was a large subscription raised to- 
 wards starting them. Since that time there have 
 been five other companies formed within a few miles 
 of Birkenhead, which are principally composed of 
 working men, labourers, and farm servants ; the four 
 first of those companies found their own clothes 
 and up to this time they have paid their own ex- 
 penses, and they have in hand what remains of the 
 contributions which were made for starting the move- 
 
 ,/. L<iirn. Est}. 
 M.P. 
 
 ment. In those companies that arc formed now, and 
 
 I am now talking of the rifle companies in the out- 1" June 1862. 
 
 lying districts, tlie captains and tlie officers and some 
 
 of the neighbouring gentry provide a large amount, 
 and I lielieve that the expense will fidl very heavily 
 on some of the captains of these corps. They would 
 have to pay a great bulk of the exjjensos for clothing 
 and other exjienses. Then, as to the artillery, they arc 
 formed on difiercnt principles ; there is tiie first and 
 second Cheshire artillery, they were started about 
 the month of December 1859 in connexion with the 
 Canada works at Birkenhead, the elotlies were given 
 to the men by Air. Willi.am Jackson, Ai.l'., and Mr. 
 Brassey, but they belong to the corps. The officers 
 and men were principally connected with the Canada 
 works. Tlic thii-d company was formed at Wallasey and 
 New Brighton, and I tliink it was tbrmed partly of 
 working men also. I believe they are either partially 
 or wholly clothed by subscriptions. The fourtli com- 
 pany was Ibrmed at Chester, and the fifth company 
 is one that was formed in connexion with the works 
 in which 1 was a partner, viz., the Birkenhead Iron 
 Works. My eldest son is captain, and the other 
 officers are young men in the establislnuent, or con- 
 nected with it, but no one was admitted into that 
 company who did not pay for his own clothes. Men 
 wanted to come in, but I thought that if the men had 
 not some stake in it the clothes would not be taken 
 good care of, and that it would create in them a better 
 feeling if they provided their own clothes. It was 
 agreed when they joined that all the expenses con- 
 nected with the corps should bo paid by the firm, 
 and that the accoutrements should also be found by 
 the firm. That was the principle on which they 
 were established, and it has been worked out in that 
 way. I think that 77 men joined the first year, and 
 there were many applications from others ; but we 
 refused to admit them till we saw how the thing wont 
 on, and at the end of a certain time an intimation was 
 given that if others chose to join they might, and 
 as the result about 140 men applied to join on 
 the same principle of paying for their uniforms. 
 The uniforms cost about 3/. and there was great 
 difficulty in restraining the men as to the ex- 
 pense, they preferred to have the best quality of 
 uniform, but we pressed them to be content with a 
 cheaper kind, which cost 3/. and they were to repay 
 that amount at one shilling a- week. There were many 
 apprentices in the works, and in order to encourage 
 them a proposal was made to them that if they would 
 join the corps they should have the clothes at half- 
 price, and if they conducted themselves well and 
 attended drill for twelve months the money should be 
 refunded to them ; the object was to try to get them to 
 attend and be stead}', and that has worked very well. 
 On the whole I think th.at the establishment of this 
 corps in the works has produced very good efiects 
 amongst the men as setting an example to the others. 
 The Serjeants are generally the foremen and the better 
 class of the workmen. I consider that the men paying 
 for the uniform is a very important element in this 
 movement. In the first company, consisting of 77 men, 
 it is nearly all paid off, and as far as I can gather from 
 a letter which I have received I think th.at the last 
 two companies are paying up very well. Some men 
 leave the works, but on the whole the payments are 
 being made in a very creditable manner to the men, 
 and the effectives this year will be about 160. If there 
 is a great deal of overtime work, the men cannot give 
 so much time to drill, and various circumstances may 
 prevent them from making up their full time; we kept 
 the men back and would not let them join until we 
 found that the system worked out well. 
 
 2541. {Lord Elcho.) How many men are there 
 employed in your works altogether ? — 2,500 alto- 
 gether. 
 
 2542. Of whom about a twelfth are volunteers ? — 
 Y'es, we would not take men in who were not likely 
 to remain, who were not good workmen ; many of the 
 
 P 2
 
 108 
 
 MINTJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMVnSSIONEES APPOINTED 
 
 J. Laird, Esq., 
 M.P 
 
 17 June 1862. 
 
 apprentices have paid very great attention to it, and 
 that lias liad a good eflfcct among the men. Another 
 arrangement that we made was tliis, that all the 
 expenses connected with going to practice shooting 
 are paid by the firm, and they were promised, in 
 case of any of them being able to shoot well, that 
 they should be sent to the county meeting, and upon 
 the last occasion there was a certain number selected, 
 and out of three prizes given to artillery corps they 
 won two ; and when they came back, to show the 
 feeling of the other men, they subscribed between 50Z. 
 and 60/. for prizes to be shot for by this company, 
 and they went down to the practice ground and shot 
 for it. 
 
 2543. You are referring to the men in the works 
 generally ? — Yes, they subscribed 55/., which they 
 placed in my son's hands to distribute in such prizes 
 as he thought fit, and they went down and shot for 
 them. I merely mention that to show that it pro- 
 duced a very good effect, for the other men were 
 quite proud of what their fellow workmen had done 
 at the county meeting. Then with regard to the 
 expense of working out tlie corps, as far as I can 
 make out now, exclusive of any loss upon the clothes, 
 (which I do not think will be very heavy if anything.) 
 the expense of working the corps is about 25s. or 
 30*. a man, and if working men give their time 
 to it find attend to their drill, and pay for their 
 own clothes, I think that you cannot exj^ect them to 
 go into the other expenses which follow. Very often 
 they have to go down to our practice ground, which 
 is about four miles from Birkcnhend ; they go down 
 in omnibuses and march back generally ; and then 
 there are the expenses of going down to the fort, 
 which is about four miles distant ; they generally 
 go down in a steamboat and march back. 
 
 2544. ( Chairman.') They think that those expenses 
 ought to be paid ? — Yes ; that is the arrangement 
 made with them. You cannot get them to pay more 
 than they do ; they give up their time after their 
 work during the week and on Saturday afternoon, and 
 I think that that is as much as you can expect 
 working men of that class to do ; I should state 
 that there is another corps which was established 
 last year, an engineer corps, consisting of about 160 
 men, and the principle acted upon in that corps is 
 that the men pay for their clothes by instalments, and 
 they estimate that there will be a loss of 10 or 15 per 
 cent, by those who do not pay ; the members pay 
 Is. 6d. weekly, but the belts and accoutrements be- 
 long to the corps, and they are paid for out of the 
 general fund ; the preliminary expenses they expect 
 will be paid by the public, and I believe the officers 
 will have to contribute towards the preliminary ex- 
 penses, amounting to 320/. ; the public have subscribed 
 150/., and 170/. will fall upon the officers ; the annnal 
 expenses are estimated at 280/., the band at 100/. ; the 
 subscriptions at 234/., and 146/. will be the balance 
 payable by the ofltcers. The uniforms cost about 
 21. 10s. each for 160 men, and they expect that that 
 will be, with the exception of a per-centage and loss 
 from those who do nc)t pay, repaid by monthly sub- 
 scriptions. I asked the officers what they thought 
 would be the best way of meeting this, and they 
 seem to consider that unless some grant is made bv 
 the Government they cannot go on, they suggest so 
 much per effective man ; and if that were granted, 
 they would then be able perhaps to keep the thin"- 
 going, — about 25s. or 30s. a man. 
 
 2545. (Sir A. Campbell.) Does that mean 25s. a 
 head, exclusive of the cost of the uniform ? — Yes, 
 they find their uniforms. 
 
 2546. They would require 25s. or 30s. per effective, 
 exclusive of the uniform ? — Yes. Then with regard 
 to officers, there is great difficulty in getting efficient 
 officers ; many men in our neighbourhood who are 
 employed in the offices would make excellent oflicers, 
 and give attention to their duties, but there is a great 
 objection by persons of that sort to act as ofiicers, 
 because the officers, it is generally supposed, are 
 bound to make up any deficiency that there may be ; 
 
 if a man is a captain he is very often called upon ; 
 that has been the case in Liverpool, I know ; and on 
 our side of the water, if you get a corps composed 
 altogether of men with good incomes, they would 
 pay their subscriptions ; but when you depend upon 
 tradesmen and clerks in offices, they cannot be ex- 
 pected to find their clothes and pay their subscriptions. 
 In one of the last corps which has been established 
 in our neighbourhood at Upton, four mile.s oft", I 
 believe the captain will have to pay for the clothing 
 of the men, and many large expenses. 
 
 2547. {Lieut- Col. Barttelot.) What might those 
 expenses be ? — He is very near the shooting range, 
 but still the expenses will be very heavy. 
 
 2548. Is it over 100/. ?— Yes, and I think he will 
 have to pay it, as far as I can learn ; the feeling is, 
 that it will require, in addition to the clothes that are 
 found, but which will of course depend upon the 
 condition in which the companies are, 25s. or 30s. to 
 keep the movement in a state of efficiency in districts 
 like Liverpool and Birkenhead. 
 
 2549. ( Chairman.) Do you propose to spend any 
 part of that in conveying the men backwards and for- 
 wards to the drill ground ? — Yes ; and there are 
 storehouses wanted, extra pay to the Serjeants, and a 
 variety of other expenses which require to be met. 
 
 2550. {Col. MacMi/rdo.) Do you pay anything 
 extra to the Serjeants ? — They have to find them a 
 house. I think the Government now allow in the 
 artillery and rifles the pay of the Serjeants, but in 
 tlie rifles they pay them extra, or they could not get 
 them to stop. 
 
 2551. (Lord Oversfonc.) Is it your opinion that if 
 working men and artizans are encouraged to join the 
 volunteer movement, it is but reasonable that they 
 should contribute only their time and labour, and 
 that further pecuniary means should be obtained from 
 other sources ? — No, I think that they ought to find 
 their own clothes, but as to all the other expenses, I 
 do not think that the working men will join if they 
 are asked to contribute anything more. 
 
 2552. If artizans and other working persons are 
 encouraged to join the volunteers, you think it is 
 reasonable that they should provide their own clothing, 
 but that further incidental expenses should be met 
 from other sources ? — I think tfiat you ought to have 
 a class of men willing to do something towards the 
 force, and if they find their clothes I think that is 
 sufficient ; the men take much better care of their 
 own clothes, they have their own boxes for the uni- 
 form, and as to the working men, if the clothes last 
 three years, it would cost them about dd. a week, 
 the money being advanced in the first instance. 
 
 2553. Your opinion is that the volunteer force 
 as at present constituted, consists of a variety of 
 classes, and according to the condition of those re- 
 spective classes, it may reasonably be expected that 
 a Government sulsveution in a pecuniary form should 
 be more or less applied to it ? — I think so. 
 
 2554. When you are dealing with the artizan and 
 working classes, the pecuniary assistance from the 
 Government may be larger than when you are dealing 
 with companies composed of other classes ? — Yes, I 
 think that the others who can aflbrd to pay would 
 not ask for more than w-as necessary ; but take the 
 class of men to be found in a town like Liverpool, 
 clerks, who do receive, perhaps, 50/. a year, they 
 cannot afford to pay their subscriptions, and besides 
 that give their time to it ; they do not want any pay, 
 but there is a practice ground to go to, and the 
 distance from town makes that a great cost, and the 
 drill sheds ; I think my sons pay 50/. or 60/. a year 
 for a drill shed. 
 
 2555. Upon the supposition that it was recom- 
 mended to the Government to assist the volunteers 
 by increased pecuniary advances, in what form do 
 you think that those pecuniary allowances could be 
 most appropriately made? — I believe that the simplest 
 way would be so much per head for those who were 
 returned as effective. 
 
 2556. To whom would you intrust the application 
 
 I
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER I'ORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 109 
 
 of that capitation grant ? — I suppose to the com- 
 manding otficei's. 
 
 2657. Would you pay it over to a commanding 
 officer, leaving it to his tree and unlimited discretion, 
 or would you require him to send in an estimate or 
 statement of the specific purposes for which he re- 
 quired the money ? — I think he should give in a general 
 statement of what it was wanted for, and a similar 
 account also of the expenditure. 
 
 2558. Do you think that that principle could be 
 applied generally, or must it not be modified according 
 to the condition and circumstances of the diflerent 
 class of persons of wliom each regiment consisted ? 
 — I think that it must bo modified, as some corps might 
 not require assistance at all, and in others they could 
 not do without it. 
 
 2559. May not there be various conditions ; some 
 corps not requiring it at all, and some requiring it to 
 a very great extent, and many intermediate ones 
 requiring it in a modified form ? — All the parties 
 I have consulted consider that the Government 
 ought to find practice grounds and provide for 
 drill sheds and fixed expenses of that kind ; as to the 
 expenses of going to and from the practice grounds 
 there are many corps that would not accept anything 
 of the kind. 
 
 2560. Would your suggestion assume something of 
 this form, that the expenses connected with the persons 
 of the volunteers should fall upon themselves, but 
 that those which may be called general expenses, 
 aftectiug a whole company or a regiment, should be 
 borne by the Government ? — That would be a very 
 good definition in the cases of corps composed of tlie 
 better classes, but I wish to encourage the working 
 men to join who cannot afford to pay the expenses of 
 going to and from the practice grounds. 
 
 2561. You consider that greater pecuniary assist- 
 ance should be aiforded to companies or regiments 
 composed of the artizan classes than to those which 
 consist of a ditt'erent class of persons ? — Yes ; because 
 if all the expenses of storehouses and practice grounds 
 were paid, then those of the better class would not 
 accept assistance to enable them to go from point 
 to point ; but the working men cannot afibrd that 
 expense. 
 
 2562. Can you throw out any suggestion by which 
 that distinction between advances to be made to 
 artizan companies, and tlie more limited advances to 
 be made to others can be carried out? — I am not pre- 
 pared at present to do so. 
 
 2563. I think you stated that you thought the 
 expenses which indirectly tall upon the officers have 
 a very considerable tendency to prevent young men 
 who would make good officers from undertaking that 
 duty V — Yes ; with regard to the artillery in Liver- 
 pool, I think that the officers had to pay an entrance 
 fee of fifty guineas, and the uniforms cost them 50/. 
 I was told that one of them has to pay 15/. or 20/. 
 per annum, and he says that he does not know what his 
 liabilities will be when the men's clothes are worn out. 
 I think that in these working men's corps in towns 
 the men should find their own clothes, as they would 
 take greater care of them. There were large sub- 
 scriptions raised at first to furnish uniforms to the 
 men, and the difficulty now is felt when the uniforms 
 want renewing. 
 
 2564. Do you think the volunteer movement was 
 conducted on rather too extravagant a principle at 
 its outset ? — "Xes ; I think that the uniforms were at 
 first most extravagant, and there are no people who 
 require more checking in that way than working 
 men. They are anxious to have expensive uniforms; 
 that was one of our greatest difficulties ; but I believe 
 there is an end of it now, and they are all looking for 
 economy. About from 50.?. to 3/. is the outside price 
 now. 
 
 2565. Has there been an unwise system of expen- 
 diture in other things, such as costly rilie prizes, and 
 expensive entertainments, and so forth ? — No, I 
 think that the rifle prizes have done a great deal of 
 
 M.l'. 
 17 June 1862. 
 
 good, but the cost has not generally come out of the J. I.oirrl. Es(j., 
 funds of the companies. 
 
 2566. Are not the officers lial)le to considerable calls 
 of an indirect compulsory character, l)ut whicli arc 
 seriously inconvenient, to find |)rizes for rifle shoot- 
 ing ? — In our neighbourhood they have not been, as 
 the prizes have been quite voluntary ; I do not think 
 tliat in our neighbourhood there has been any coni- 
 ]mlsion on the ofiicers, or that tliey are considered 
 bound to contribute to prizes. 
 
 2567. Looking to the general prospects of the 
 volunteer movement, and the danger to its efficiency 
 which appears to arise from considerations of ex[iense, 
 do you think that wo are proceeding upon a wise and 
 prudent system in giving valuable prize;:, consistin"- 
 not solely in the honour of success but in their intrin- 
 sic value, calling your attention also to the system of 
 entertainments and various other sources of expendi- 
 ture ? — I think it would be better not to give prizes 
 of too high a value, and that they should tliink more 
 of the honour of gaining them. I can give you an 
 instance of that ; after the Cheshire county mectin" 
 I gave 10/. to my sons to be divided into 50s. 
 and 1/. prizes and so on, and the men were just 
 as well pleased in gaining those prizes as if tliey 
 had been of much greater value, and I believe that 
 volunteers generally of the better class would look 
 more to the honour of gaining the prizes ; as to the 
 entertainments I do not exactly understand what that 
 refers to. 
 
 2568. It is pretty well known that a considerable 
 amount of expenditure occurs throughout the country 
 in connexion with the entertainments when volun- 
 teers assemble together, which, perhaps, partially falls 
 upon each man, but in a larger degree ui)on the 
 olficers : and subscriptions are also raised from the 
 surrounding public. Do you not think that those 
 entertainments have been hitherto carried on on too 
 expensive a scale ? — As far as I know of the work- 
 ing men's corps, and of the parties originating them, 
 we have agreed to pay all those expenses and have 
 had to pay for them if there has been a review. 
 Take Chester for example, to which the Cheshire 
 volunteers go once a year. Lord Westminster said 
 that lie would only sanction one review a year, looking 
 at the expenses of men going there, I do not think 
 that tliere is any extravagance among the volunteers 
 generally who pay their own expenses. 
 
 2569. Is it your opinion that the feeling in which 
 the volunteer movement originated is as active and 
 strong now as it was ? — I think that if there was not 
 a dread of being called upon for the expenses I have 
 named there would be as many as ever, so far as I can 
 judge in our neighbourhood. In the neighbourhood 
 of Birkenhead they are much more efficient trom the 
 practice they have had, and there would be no diffi- 
 culty in getting plenty to join if it was not for the 
 expense. 
 
 2570. You think that the patriotic feeling in which 
 the movement originated remains undiminished, but 
 that its practical development is seriously checked by 
 prudential considerations having reference to' the cost 
 incurred ? — I think so ; as to the officers that is a 
 very important point ; many men who go in as offi- 
 cers do not attend to it ; men in business generally 
 cannot do so, but the dread of expense keeps out 
 many young men of character who would be very 
 valuable officers. 
 
 2571. Can you form anything like an estimate of 
 what amount per head defrayed from other sources 
 would remove the difficulty you have .spoken of ? — 
 I think about 25.?. or 30s. per head. I have gone 
 into the matter with the officers of some of the 
 companies ; two of my sons are captains, one in the 
 men's corps connected with the works, and the other 
 is a captain of a company in No. 1 Cheshire rifle 
 company, and both of them seem to consider that 
 about that amount would be sufficient. 
 
 2572. Considering your own well-known zeal in 
 promoting the efficiency of this mnvonient, and at the 
 same time considering the duty which rests upon the 
 
 P 3
 
 110 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 J. Laird, Esq., 
 M.P. 
 
 17 June 1802. 
 
 Government as to the adminisfr.ation of tlie public 
 funds, is it your opinion that tlie Government would 
 be justiiiod in advancing 30,«. a head to assist the 
 volunteer movement ? — I thinl< they would be amply 
 justified, and that it would be about the best expen- 
 diture that ever -was made. From the communica- 
 tions that I have had with various classes of persons, 
 gentlemen and tradesmen, with clerks and mechanics 
 of all sorts, I am satisfied that among the working 
 men the movement has had a beneficial effect ; I mean 
 in this way ; instead of going, after leaving their 
 work, about, not knowing what to do, they have had 
 their drill to attend to, and it has excited a feeling of 
 emulation among them when they wont down to prac- 
 tice ; when one man shoots a little better than another 
 there is a little talk about it, and it has improved the 
 men in the yard generally. Among the apprentices 
 I have suggested the plan I have referred to ; there 
 are many apprentices who are very active and fine 
 young men, and they are receiving 6s., 8s., and \0s. a 
 week, and you cannot expect them to pay for their 
 clothes ; and I thought by giving them some en- 
 couragement of the kind, if they attended to their 
 drill well for twelve months, and were steady, and con- 
 ducted themselves well in their work, it would be a 
 great boon to those young men, and it would be money 
 not thrown away by the establishment to which they 
 belong. 
 
 2.573. Do you think that the discipline connected 
 with the volunteer movement, exercises a valuable 
 moral intluence upon tlie habits of the parties who 
 join it ? — That is my own opinion. My son, who has 
 the entire charge, as captain, of them and is more 
 among the men than I am, quite concurs in that view. 
 
 2574. Do you think that it further exercises a be- 
 neficial influence upon their social relations and their 
 respect for the institutions of the country ? — Yes, I 
 think that it lias a very beneficial effect in that way ; 
 they seem to consider now that tliey are contributing 
 their time and their money, and that they are doing 
 something towards the defence of the country. 
 
 257o. I think I glean from you that the volunteer 
 movement has been of great value lieyond the fact of 
 originating a means of protection against external 
 danger V — Yes, I have always thought so since 1859, 
 and I am the more impressed with that from being 
 urged or rather forced into taking up this cause by 
 the anxiety of the men themselves who were anxious 
 to join a rifle corps or an artillery corps. I spoke to 
 my sons about it, and we thought it better instead of 
 going elsewhere to give them an opportunity of join- 
 ing their own people in the works, about two years 
 and a half ago, and I believe that it has had a very 
 beneficial efl'ect upon the men themselves, as it has set 
 an example to the rest of the men in the works. If 
 one of the corps became a drunkard or bad character 
 they would not keep him in the corps. 
 
 2576. Upon these joint considerations you have no 
 hesitation in recommending further Government aid 
 in support of the volunteer movement ? — I think it 
 would be the very best laid out money that the 
 Government could expend. 
 
 2577. In that case do you think that such further 
 advance by the Government would necessarily carry 
 with it an obligation on the part of the Government 
 to look more closely into and interfere moi-o directly 
 with the organization and discipline of the volunteer 
 force ? — I do not think that there would be any ob- 
 jection to any assistance being given which should be 
 in proportion to the efficiency. 
 
 2578. I am rather directing your attention to what 
 would be the correlative duties of the Government, 
 in case of their advancing largely for the support of 
 the force, would it not impose upon the Government 
 the obligation of looking more closely into and in- 
 terfering more directly with the discipline and efi:- 
 ciency of the force ? — I think if the corps were 
 reported efficient when inspected, that would be quite 
 sufficient without interfering any more. I should not 
 like to see more interference with it ; I think it would 
 prevent parties coming forward to join. 
 
 2579. But you think it would be right for the 
 Government to require proper certificates from the 
 proper officers as to the efficiency of the corps? — 
 Yes ; but I should not like continual interference 
 with it. If, at the end of six months' time it appeared 
 that a corps requiring assistance was not efficient or 
 up to its drill, I do not think that they ought to 
 receive assistance, and what I want to see is assis- 
 tance given to make them efficient. 
 
 2580. I understand your view to be that assistance 
 from the Government and efficiency in a corps should 
 be intimately connected and dependent one upon the 
 other ? — Yes, I think so ; and I believe that by afford- 
 ing moderate assistance you may spread a very good 
 feeling among the working classes in this country. 
 
 2581. Do you think that the volunteer movement 
 thus supported by the Government would further 
 extend itself ? — Yes, I believe it would, and that is 
 the opinion of other parties who are connected in the 
 same way with mechanics. I cannot but think that 
 if more assistance was given you might obtain any 
 number of respectable mechanics. 
 
 2582. Is the opinion which you have expressed 
 before this Commission concurred in by the best 
 informed and most influential persons in the neigh- 
 bourhood with which you are associated ? — Yes, all 
 whom 1 have spoken to and who are connected with 
 corps of mechanics think that assistance to the ex- 
 tent which I have mentioned would tend very much 
 to promote the permanency of the movement ; but 
 they all think that any assistance should be combined 
 with securing efficiency. I do not say in detail how 
 tliat is to be done, but that the two should be com- 
 bined. I may state also that some few persons desire 
 to have as little interference by the Government as 
 possible, but then I do not see that the thing can go 
 on for a long time without further assistance. Men 
 are likely to remain, consisting of the middle classes, 
 if they can only be relieved of these extra expenses. 
 
 2583. But further Government assistance in sup- 
 port of the volunteer movement would be much 
 approved by the intelligent classes in that neighbour- 
 hood ? — Yes, taking the bulk of them. I have com- 
 municated with many of the leading men there, and 
 they are of the same opinion. 
 
 2584. (Lord JHcho.) You have stated that you 
 think it is desirable that the artizans should iind their 
 own uniforms ? — Yes. 
 
 2585. As a test of their sincerity, and of their 
 earnestness in the corps ? — Yes. 
 
 2586. Should you see any objection to this, that 
 they should find their first uniforms, and that those 
 who prove themselves efficient and conduct them- 
 selves projserly, should, if they wish it, receive a 
 second suit gratis ? — If a man has conducted himself 
 well for three years, and is willing to go on, that 
 is a point for consideration, but the clothes would not 
 belong to him in that case. 
 
 2587. Would you see any objection to such a course 
 as that ? — If a man has been three years in a corps, 
 I think it is very desirable to continue him on, if you 
 can do it ; but I am afraid the amount required to 
 supply uniforms would be larger than would be 
 obtained from Government. 
 
 2588. {Chairman.) You think that 2os. per man 
 would not cover that expense ? — Yes. 
 
 2589. {Sir A. Campbell.) Are there any other 
 items of expenditure besides the expense of convey^- 
 ance to the practice grounds and drill grounds from 
 which you would propose to relieve the artizan corps 
 but not to relieve the wealthier corps ? — I have stated 
 before that with regard to the better classes I do not 
 think that they would wish to be relieved from those 
 expenses, but the working men cannot aftbrd to pay 
 for more than their clothes, in addition to giving their 
 time. 
 
 2590. Are there any other items that you think the 
 wealthier classes should still pay and the artizans not 
 pay ? — There are the expenses to and from the prac- 
 tice grounds, and refreshments and things of that 
 sort J for instance, if the men were to go down to
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 Ill 
 
 the Kock Fort, whicli is four miles down tlio river, in 
 tliat case wo always tako a steamer. 
 
 2593. Do you consider that tlie expenses may be 
 divided into three classes ; one the expense of the 
 uniibrui, which I think you said tliey would defniy 
 themselves ; another, the expenses of travelling, which 
 you think should be defrayed by one class and not by 
 another ; and a third, consisting of the remaining 
 regimental expenses, of which you think j'our corjis 
 should be relieved ? — Yes ; we find accoutrements for 
 our men, but it is a question whether the Govern- 
 ment should not lind them, as well as arms and 
 ammunitiou. 
 
 2592. The third class of expenses, which j'ou think 
 your corps should be relieved from, would require from 
 '25s. to 30s. per annum per effective man ? — According 
 to the best information I can get that would be re- 
 quired to defray the second and third class of expenses 
 and to insure the permanency of the movement. 
 
 2593. Can you put before the Commission the 
 grounds upon which you have formed that estimate, 
 for it is higher than former witnesses have given ? — 
 I can make out a statement and show that. 
 
 2594. {Viscount Hardingc.) What do you suppose 
 that in fact it costs a working man to belong to a 
 volunteer corps, excluding the loss of his time, and 
 the expense of his uniform ? — I will prepare a state- 
 ment in answer to that question. 
 
 2595. Do you think that a working man would pre- 
 fer to be relieved from those incidental expenses rather 
 than be clothed by the commanding officer or the 
 Government ? — I think that it creates a better feel- 
 ing in the men when they find their own clothes ; I 
 do not think that as a general rule they like to be 
 clothed. 
 
 2596. {Lord Overstone.) Suppose an artizan was 
 to join the regiment in which you take an interest 
 to-morrow, and his clothing was found for him, how 
 much do you think at the end of six months he would 
 be out of pocket ? — I cannot go into the details of that, 
 but I can obtain from two or three sources the details 
 and send them to you. 
 
 2597. ( Viscount Hardinge.') You do not think that 
 the enrolment of these working men has in any way 
 interfered with the recruiting for the line or the 
 militia ? — These men would have nothing to do with 
 
 th(^ militia 
 in 
 
 there was a great dread of these things -^^ L«ird,Esq., 
 1859, and there was a fear of having working ^'^■^'• 
 
 men among the volunteers, but that has died away. 
 Some of these men are getting 30.s., 40.s-., and 50.«. a 
 week. 
 
 2598. What is the lowest rate of wages that they 
 receive ? — Perhaps 20,v. 
 
 2599. Are you aware that there are working men 
 in the militia in the county of Northumberland who 
 earn 20*. a week ? — I do not know that, but if you 
 get men to join volunteer corps and find their clothes 
 they are certainly quite above the class who join the 
 militia. 
 
 2Q00. (Chairman.) You have spoken I think of 
 two different classes of uniforms, one costing three 
 guineas and the other two guineas ? — 1 tliink that 
 about 3L or guineas is the cost of the artillery uni- 
 form. I spoke of the engineer corps in Birkenhead, 
 and the engineer corps have a very good uniform ; 
 red tunic and blue trowsers, and exclusive of 
 accoutrements they pay 50s. for it. 
 
 2601. {Sir A. Cnmphell.) Is it not the case that 
 one of the corps at Birkenhead was armed by contract 
 before the Government supplied arms, andtliat some 
 of the men obtained arms for themselves and othci-s 
 did not ? — At first they had to find them and then 1 
 think they were givea out by the Government. 
 
 2602. Is it not the case that the arms were in 
 store, and that they were issued upon two principles, 
 one that the men took them to have the use of them, 
 and the other that the remaining part of the corps 
 paid for them to the commanding officer, and the 
 rifles became their own property ? — I think that they 
 found tliem themselves ; there were some corps that 
 were found in that way, and then the Government 
 found them all. 
 
 2603. Might not the same principle be applied to 
 the clothing, if corps were clothed by contract and 
 those who chose to provide their own might do so, 
 while others might receive them as the pro]K'rty of 
 the Government, the names of the two ditiferent 
 classes of persons not being known except to the 
 commanding officer ? — I think it ought to be on one 
 principle in the same corps, and not one class of men 
 paying and the others not. 
 
 17 .Jui.f isr.':. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Captain John Macgreqoe examined. 
 
 2604. {Chairman.') You command a company in 
 the London Scottish Volunteers ? — Yes ; and I am 
 musketry instructor of the corps. 
 
 2605. I believe you can speak to the moral effisct 
 which the volunteer movement has had upon the 
 character of the men ? — Yes. 
 
 2606. Has it had a beneficial effect ? — Yes ; with 
 respect to all those of whom I have heard, and I have 
 had a large correspondence on the subject with volun- 
 teers in England, Scotland, and Wales, and the 
 colonies. 
 
 2607. Will you state to the Commission what 
 you think the effect has been ? — I think that the 
 volunteers have been brought into association with 
 classes they never would have met with otherwise, 
 that they have had qualities in themselves develojied 
 that never would have else had play, and that they 
 have had subjects placed before them that they never 
 considered before, that discipline, cleanliness, order, 
 punctuality, promptitude, and obedience have been 
 imparted to them in such a manner as could not have 
 been done by any other means whatever ; but I 
 might perhaps save the time of the Connnission by 
 handing a copy of a paper on this subject which I 
 read last week at the Social Science meeting ; it is to 
 be found in the Vohmtcer Service Gazette {handing 
 in the same). 
 
 2608. You i)ut that paper in as representing your 
 views upon tho moral effects produced ui)on the men 
 in the volunteer force ?• — Yes, upon the moral, social, 
 
 and hygienic effects. The moral effect is produced 
 by wearing uniform, by submission to another's will 
 on parade, by forming good habits, and making new 
 acquaintances, by restraint on time, temper, energy, 
 and general behaviour, by emulation and speedy 
 reward of good conduct, as well as rebuke of neglect, 
 by the influence of educated men, by the sense of 
 engaging seriously in a patriotic and manly movement 
 for one's country, by intelligent admii-atiou of the 
 regular army, and a perception of the difficulties to 
 be met by those who rule large bodies of men, by 
 taking part in public business, and by managing 
 funds, rooms, halls, shooting ranges, and meetings. 
 The effect is seen in volunteers who are less idle and 
 dissipated, and more respectful to authority. It is 
 seen in the public, who appreciate the necessity and 
 advantage of armed defenders. The social effect is 
 more various. Many relations and friends of the men 
 reluctantly acquiesce in the loss of their society at 
 home, and grudge tho expense of time and money 
 incurred by volunteering. The effect upon the volun- 
 teers' health seems to be very beneficial. In rejily to 
 about 300 letters on this .subject, I find an almost 
 unanimous testimony to the improved carriage, con- 
 dition, appetite, and activity of the men. The parade 
 drills give exercise to many who would Otherwise be 
 sedentary. The march out to country places gives 
 fresh air ; the shooting requires temperance, and even 
 hard training of the body, which is further developed 
 by the boxinc, fencina-, and athletic classes. Several 
 
 P 4 
 
 Capt. 
 J. Macijtegor.
 
 112 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COIDIISSIONEHS APPOINTED 
 
 Capt. 
 J. Miicyregor, 
 
 17 Jiiue 18G2. 
 
 instances arc mentioned vrherc casinos, dancing 
 saloons, skittle allc3-s, billiard rooms, and similar 
 pliiccs have been closed by the absence of the custom 
 of men who once frequented lliera, but who now give 
 their days to shoot, and evenings to drill, and find 
 pleasure in hand music or chorus singing. 
 
 2609. {Lord Overs/one.) ^Yhat is your impression 
 as to the present state of the volunteer movement ; 
 do you anticipate any serious difficulty in maintaining 
 it in a state of permanent efficiency ? — I think that 
 the force is more efficient than I could have expected, 
 or than we ought to expect it to be at this period, 
 and as to its permanence I am surpriseil that the force 
 has not declined much more than it has, and I think 
 that nothing would cause it to decline more rapidly 
 than to fear that it is declining, any unnecessary fear 
 or any unnecessarily expressed fear upon that subject 
 ■would have a very prejudicial eftect. 
 
 2610. By unnecessarily expressed fear I presume 
 you mean an expression not founded on facts ? — I 
 mean any expression of fear which is not almost 
 compelled by the circumstances. 
 
 2611. Do you not think that whatever may be 
 the state of feeling as to the volunteer movement, 
 the wisest course in the end will be to ascertain it 
 accurately, to set it forth correctly, and to meet it, 
 whatever it may be, distinctly ? — I do most certainly ; 
 but first of all to arrange in one's mind, or beget in 
 the minds of the country, a standard, and to say that 
 everything that does not come up to that in numbers 
 or efficiency amounts to a defalcation, would be, I 
 think, rather to find the accuracy of a mistake than 
 the accuracy of truth. 
 
 2612. I wish to know whether you think the present 
 volunteer movement is at present declining, and if you 
 think it is declining to what causes do you attribute 
 it ? — I think that the volunteer movement was im- 
 pelled by several difierent forces, and that some of 
 them have come to an end, and that others Avhich 
 were not fully recognized at first, and which are more 
 permanent than the former, must and can be kept up 
 for ever in England. I think there are two sets of 
 purposes that bring men to volunteer ; one is a desire 
 to have a connexion with military efficiency and a 
 soldier-like character, and the other is that part which 
 may be called the amusing, social, and healthful re- 
 creation : the bands, the uniform, the marchings out, 
 the parades, and the shooting ; and I think that this 
 latter part has to compete with other amusements, 
 which may compete successfully when the novelty of 
 volunteering has gone. But 1 think that the military 
 part cannot be supplanted by any other amusement 
 or engagement, that has the same features, in a like 
 degree, and therefore will suffer little from com- 
 petition. The military spirit I think has increased in 
 England, and will continue to do so. 
 
 2613. You think that the volunteer movement had 
 its origin in two sets of feelings, one which was in its 
 nature temporary and transitory, and the other set in 
 motion by causes wdiich were deep and permanent ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 2614. Do you think that the transitory causes 
 are essentially transitory, and that it will be idle to 
 make any attempt to give them permanency ? — I think 
 that the transitory causes are at any rate intermittent, 
 and that they are of a difierent order from those which 
 are permanent ; they appeal to difierent feelings and 
 to a different class of men. 
 
 2615. Do you think that there are any circum- 
 stances which are now apparent in connexion with 
 the volunteer movement which make it desirable that 
 any new or additional steps should be taken by the 
 Government with respect to tliem ? — Yes. 
 
 2616. What are they ? — I think that in the first 
 place the Government should look upon the move- 
 ment, as the volunteers will liave to look upon it soon, 
 as one to be estimated by the number of enrolled 
 men, men ready to serve, ready to drill, men who 
 Lave shown that readiness by coming forward once at 
 least to become efficient ; neither the force nor the 
 Government ought to look upon the movement as to 
 
 be measured by the number of men who, after the 
 excitement is subsided, continue to drill and maintain 
 their efficiency ; therefore I think that Government 
 supervision and Government aid and the public ap- 
 proval should be given, not in proportion to the size of 
 a battalion as it appears at present, but in proportion 
 to the number of men attached to it, who have already 
 once become efficient, and who could be summoned 
 at any moment. I think that one of the most valuable 
 things for the Government to do with regard to the 
 public and the volunteers is to preserve those men 
 who have once shown themselves patriotic and ener- 
 getic in the position in which they are, and not to let 
 them dissociate themselves from the corps and be 
 in shops and places of business as if they had never 
 connected themselves with the force. As far as 
 recruiting goes, much will depend upon what is re- 
 ported to their neighbours by those who have been once 
 efficient volunteers, but who do not now come to drill, 
 perhaps with sufficient or at least cogent reasons. 
 To ignore those men because they are now absent 
 would in my opinion be a great mistake. 
 
 2617. You are aware that this Commission origi- 
 nated in a considerable degree in the prevalent 
 feeling that Government assistance, in a pecuniary 
 form, beyond that which is now given, was desirable 
 for the volunteer movement, are you of that opinion ? 
 — I think that men coming forward and giving time 
 and energy for a national purpose, expect that those 
 parts of the apparatus which they use in connexion with 
 their duty, and which will not end with them or even 
 with their succcessors, are to a certain extent national 
 capital, and ought to be supplied by the nation. 
 
 2618. Will you specify a little more clearly what 
 you mean ? — I will begin with the butts, targets, and 
 rifle ranges generally ; then there is the rifle itself, 
 which can be transferred to another, the orderly room 
 or office, which is also a permanency, and the adjutant 
 and paid Serjeants, to connect the force with the 
 Government through an official agency. Upon the 
 question of supplying uniforms, I can only speak as 
 to the corps I belong to. 
 
 2619. Will you state your impression upon this 
 subject as to those corps of which you have had 
 personal experience ? — I think that a great number 
 of men would leave the corps in which the clothes 
 were supplied by the Government, but I think on the 
 other hand that a great number would come into a 
 corps in which they were supplied by the Govern- 
 ment, and if we meet both those cases it must be by 
 supplying those who wish for it, and not infecting as 
 it were the whole corps with the appearance of being 
 clothed by others. It appears to me that a man who 
 has been eflective for one year, and who is also effective 
 in the second year, ought if he chose have assistance 
 to a certain extent, 21. or 21. 10s., for a new uniform, 
 not his first uniform ; I think that this plan would be 
 recognized as a totally different thing from buying 
 men's service by putting them into Government coats. 
 
 2620. {Col. Mac31nrdo.) You think that the men 
 have earned that? — Yes. 
 
 2621. {Lord ElcJio.) It would be a pledge that a 
 man was earnest in the work if he was made to bear 
 the first expense himself ? — Yes, and by being effec- 
 tive he shows that he has bought his uniform, and 
 has worn it out in public service. 
 
 2622. ( Viscount Hardinge.) How do you define the 
 term effective ? — If I may be permitted to say what I 
 tiiink upon that I should divide our force at follows : 
 We have effective men who are continually eflective, 
 and effective men who were once very valuable and 
 effi'ctive, but who are not now connected with us, 
 and thirdly, the recruits who are not yet effective. 
 I think that those three require to be considered 
 separately. There is at present nothing to encourage 
 a volunteer in the ranks, after he has become an 
 effective, to go any further forward in his drill, and 
 therefore nothing to encourage him to attend to any- 
 thing except the social and amusing part of it ; many 
 men in the ranks are unable to become officers, and 
 unwilling to become Serjeants. If such a one knows
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 113. 
 
 how to be a right or left file, and how to right and 
 left wheel, and the manual and platoon exercises?, 
 ho in f:ict knows all the drill of general battalion 
 movements, so far as a private is coneerned. When 
 such a man finds that, hoAvever good he may become, 
 he has men on both sides of him who drag down his 
 excellence to the level of their mediocrity, no reason- 
 ing will convince him that heonght to spend valuable 
 hours waiting until such persons become equally good 
 drills with himself. There is a natural desire of tiic 
 the nation, the Government, the volunteers, and 
 especially of their commanders to represent at in- 
 spections two things which I think cannot be seen 
 together in volunteers ; the one is number, and the 
 other efficiency. In the regular troops the men who 
 are inspected can always attend, and their number 
 and efficiency can be tested together, but with us, 
 Avhen our efficiency is tested at an inspection, our 
 numbers are the most ; and therefore our efficiency is 
 the least, and unless we can exhibit our numbers and 
 our efficiency separately, I think we never rightly test 
 either of those qualities, and the men are not satisfied 
 nor the Government informed. I should propose to 
 the Commission this addition to our present system, 
 that the inspection, which after all is the occasion 
 that the volunteer commander labours for, should be 
 only a drill of simple movements where the Govern- 
 ment officer can see every enrolled member, not 
 keeping away those who are bad at drill ; but as the 
 regiment and the commander would not be content 
 
 with that, there should lie on certain occasions in thcS i'api. 
 
 year, two, three, or four baltaliou drills, at which J-Margrcgor. 
 
 select companies of men, selected and formed into ,, , ^„^„ 
 ;• I r,i rn- i i i i u 17 June 1SC2. 
 companies irom cacli ot the duiereut corps, should bo 
 
 put into one battalion, and be supposed to come there 
 ready to do everylhiug, and without excuse for 
 mistakes, so .as to have cyory encouragement for first- 
 rato drilling. These men so selected, say two com- 
 l)anies from one corps, one company from another, 
 and three or four from another, would have .■^uch a 
 feeling of competition that it would inspire as shooting 
 inspires, and encourage a great deal of practice. The 
 other members of the several corps would look on, 
 and would desire to bo worthy to enter into such 
 companies, and to be i)rescnt on sucli occasions, and 
 would therefore necessarily attend drill. This appears 
 to me to be the most practicable manner in which, 
 with a little change, a natural desire for excellence 
 in drill nuist be encouragi'd. 1 beg also to add that 
 some encouragement ought to be given to excellence 
 in file and volley firing. Individual firing will always 
 be sufficiently improved by jirivate means, and associ- 
 ations supplying prizes ; but so fiir as I am aware 
 there have been as yet no regular competitions for 
 file firing or volley firing, and while these would 
 bring many inferior shots to practice, they would in 
 fact encourage that kind of shooting which would bo 
 most required if the volunteers were ever called into 
 active service. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Adjourned till Friday next at half-past 12 o'clock. 
 
 Friday, 20tli June 1862. 
 
 PRESENT 
 
 Viscount EvEESLEY, 
 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Viscount IIardinge. 
 Lord Elciio. 
 
 Lord OVERSTONE. 
 
 Mr. BoovERiE. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Cajipbell. 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. A, Wetiierall. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 Major Harcodrt. 
 
 THE Chair. 
 
 Captain John George Blackbtjrne examined. 
 
 2623. (Chairman.) You command the 31st Lan- 
 cashire Eifle Volunteer Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 2624. Is that a consolidated b.attalion ? — It is 
 simply a corjis without an adjutant, or without any 
 connexion with other corps. 
 
 262o. I observe that you muster about 220 men ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2626. Do you find that those men attend their 
 parades regularly ? — No ; we muster, as a rule, about 
 two-thirds. 
 
 2627. How often have you musters ? — Every fort- 
 night ; every month we have a compulsory drill, and 
 in the intermediate fortnight an undress or company 
 drill ; at which the three comp.anies are sometimes 
 worked singly, and sometimes together. 
 
 2628. What is the compulsory drill ? — It is one that 
 every memlier should attend, or pay a fine. 
 
 2629. Are those fines levied when the men are 
 absent ? — Yes, and they are enforced whenever a 
 member leaves the corps. 
 
 2630. You have stated that you have no adjutant ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2631. Have you a drill instructor ? — We have one. 
 
 2632. Have you any assistance from the adjutant 
 of another corps ? — None. 
 
 2633. Have your men passed through a course of 
 musketry drill ? — Not the whole of them ; our Serjeant 
 instructor is not qualified to put them through a com- 
 plete course. 
 
 2634. I presume you can speak to the state of the 
 
 volunteer force in Lancashire from your acquaintance 
 with that county ? — I think I can generally, but 
 more especially as to my own town ; because it is a 
 matter which lias occupied my attention considerably 
 since I first entered the force ; and I am very anxious 
 that it should be put on a solid foundation, 
 
 2635. Do you think that at the present time it is 
 not upon a solid foundation ? — Yes. 
 
 2636. Will you state why you think it is not so ? 
 — In the first place I think that the volunteer force, 
 in my district, certainly never can be placed on a 
 solid foundation so long as you have to obtain sub- 
 scriptions from the men in addition to the time they 
 devote to drill. 
 
 2637. What is the amount of the subscription that 
 you call for from the men ? — h\ the first company we 
 had an entrance fee of two guineas, and a guinea an- 
 nual suhscriplion. In tlu' other companies the amount 
 was 304-., including tlie first year's subscription, and 
 I he subscription at present is one guinea per annum in 
 all the companies. 
 
 2638. Those subscriptions, I presume, constitute 
 your regimental fund ? — Yes, each company has its 
 own fund, and each captain is responsible for the 
 ordinary clothing and equipment of his company, and 
 the three companies contribute in equal proportions to 
 the regimental fund. 
 
 2639. What expenses are defrayed out of the 
 regimental fund ? — All the general expenses — every 
 thing that may be termed regimental ; for instance, 
 
 Q 
 
 Capt. J. G. 
 Blackburne. 
 
 20 June 1SG2.
 
 114 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONEES APPOINTED 
 
 Capt J. G. 
 Btackburne, 
 
 20 June 1862. 
 
 the cost of the rifle range, the cost of the armoury and 
 the drill room, as well as the extra cost appertaining 
 to the instruction of the men, and the cleaning of 
 their arms. 
 
 2640. Are the arms all kept together in the 
 armoury, or are they left in the hands of the volun- 
 teers ? — They are all kept together ; I have never 
 allowed them to be taken out, except by permission 
 occasionally and in special cases. 
 
 2641. What expenses are defrayed out of the funds 
 raised in each company ? — The clothing, and other 
 incidental expenses, which I can hardly enumerate ; 
 a variety of small matters appertaining to clothing, 
 and accoutrements, and the keeping of the company 
 generally in working order. 
 
 2642. The clothing is not paid for by individuals, 
 but is paid for out of the funds of the company ? — It is 
 paid for entirely out of the funds of the company, and 
 each company's fund has been assisted by subscriptions 
 which were originally obtained from the public in the 
 town. We had great diificulty in the first instance in 
 establishing the corps at all on account of the oppo- 
 sition that was offered to the movement by those 
 who are known as the peace party, and the chartists, 
 who attempted to make it a political movement. I 
 succeeded, by dint of sheer reasoning, to obtain the 
 sanction of a public meeting, and for some time I 
 laboured with one company under considerable disad- 
 vantages on account of the opposition of the above 
 classes, who are numerous in that district. 
 
 2643. Has the same opposition to the volunteer 
 movement prevailed in other parts of Lancashire ? — 
 It has not to the same extent. In Eochdale the same 
 parties prevailed, and they refused the sanction of a 
 public meeting for the establishment of a corps ; but 
 I believe that Rochdale was the worst place in Lan- 
 cashire, and that Oldham was the next. 
 
 2644. Are you of opinion that these corps cannot 
 be maintained unless they are assisted ? — Certainly. 
 
 2645. Is that the case with other corps in the same 
 county ? — I think it is universally the case with the 
 other corps in Lancashire, with one or two exceptions, 
 one of which I wiU refer to. It is possible that the 
 1st Manchester corps might be able to maintain itself, 
 inasmuch as that corps consists of a different class of 
 men, upon the whole, compared with the Oldham men. 
 They consist of a class of members who are more 
 like some of the London corps, the Inns of Court, for 
 example ; some of them are certainly not composed 
 of so good a class of members as the Inns of Court, 
 but they are very much better than the ordinary corps. 
 
 2646. I think you stated that j'ou had only one 
 drill instructor for the whole of your corps ? — That 
 is all. 
 
 2647. Is he qualified to di'ill them properly in 
 musketiy, and to give them a proper amount of in- 
 struction ? — I think not; I sent two serjeants down to 
 Hythe for the purpose of obtaining instruction, and 
 one of them went to obtain a certificate as serjeant 
 instructor. Both of those serjeants distinguished 
 themselves, one of them became the first marksman in 
 the class (the ninth), and the other one, who was more 
 fitted for Serjeant instructor, became the best judge 
 of distance in the class ; he was a 1st class shot, but 
 not a marksman. 
 
 2648. {3Injor-Gen. Eyre.) Are they volunteers ? 
 — Both of them, and at present I am in corres- 
 pondence with the War Oflice on the subject of the 
 latter one not oljtaining a certificate, which we are 
 all greatly surprised at, as he is n young man who 
 has given a deal of attention to the subject, and 
 seems to be perfectly acquainted with the whole 
 theory and practice ; but he has not obtained a cer- 
 tificate, which would enable him to do that by autho- 
 rity which he now does almost by courtesv. 
 
 2649. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Do you mean a first- 
 class certificate ? — No ; a certificate only as seijeant 
 instructor ; he only went for that, he has been through 
 two classes there ; and when he first went the cer- 
 tificates were not then given on any terms to volun- 
 teers, but subsequently an announcement was made to 
 
 the effect that volunteers who wish to obtain cer- 
 tificates as Serjeants might do so by staying after the 
 expiration of any class, and undergoing an examina- 
 tion for the purpose. 
 
 2650. And to be entitled to draw the same amount 
 of pay as that which is allowed to all the paid ser- 
 jeants ? — No, we do not want any pay ; only a certi- 
 ficate. All that he wants is his certificate ; we want 
 no pay for him. 
 
 2651. {Sir A. Campbell.) It is a course, is it not, 
 intermediate between the long and the short course ? 
 — It is termed, I think, the short course. 
 
 2652. {Mnjor-Gcn. Eyre.) What is the volunteei-'s 
 name ? — Serjeant John William Blackburne. 
 
 2653. ( Chairman.) I understand you to say, that in 
 order to place your corps and the corps in your 
 neighbourhood on a solid foundation, some assistance 
 is required from the public. In what way do you 
 think that assistance ought to be given ? — That is a 
 matter upon which I have really not formed a positive 
 opinion, i.e. as to the best way, and I therefore can give 
 no answer to the question that would be any guidance 
 to this Commission. I think, as I have stated before, 
 that in order that the volunteer force should become a 
 force of any value at all, and permanent, the men must 
 not have to contribute anything ; it is impossible to 
 keep up a force like this upon the same plan on which 
 you keep up a cri'cket club, or any similar kind of club. 
 After the first entliusiasm of the men has jjassed away 
 that is after the first year or two, and when they have 
 learned nearly all they can learn, the only men who 
 will remain in the force will be those who have become 
 fair shots, and who consequently have a chance of 
 entering into competition and showing themselves fit 
 to compete for the various prizes. It is quite evident 
 to me, that another great object with reference to the 
 volunteer force at present, and one that is necessary 
 in order to place it upon a better basis, is that the 
 14 days' notice should be done away with ; I 
 think that most of the men when they enrol them- 
 selves at first would enrol themselves for three 
 years on certain conditions ; those conditions being 
 that if they could show to a board composed 
 of their own officers that their circumstances were 
 so changed, or that it was necessary in order to carry 
 on their employment that they should go to other 
 towns, or anything of a similar kind, showing that 
 a complete alteration in their circumstances had taken 
 place, which would justify them in withdrawing they 
 would be released. If they knew they could do that, 
 I think they would enrol themselves for three years, 
 provided that they would not have to jjay anything ; 
 but the 14 days is a very great objection, inasmuch as 
 after a man has attended the requisite number of 
 drills, and has made himself pretty perfect, and is 
 then found fault with, perhaps, by one of the non- 
 commissioned officers, or some otlier little disagree- 
 ment takes jjlace, he at once makes his bow and 
 retires, and you have no remedy for it but to put a 
 recruit in his place, and begin again. 
 
 2654. {Lord Overstone.) As I understand your 
 evidence, the solid foundation upon which you think 
 it necessary that the volunteer force should be placed 
 means greater certainty as to their pecuniaiy re- 
 sources ? — Certainly. 
 
 2655. Supposing you were to receive a communi- 
 cation to-morrow from the War Office stating that, 
 understanding you found a difficulty in maintaining 
 the efficiency of your comjiany, they were prepared 
 to assist you, and wishing to know what you desired 
 they should do, what answer would you give ? — I 
 should say, pay all the expenses that reall}' belong to 
 the instruction and maintenance of the force, and let 
 the officers and honorary members meet all the ex- 
 penses of the bands and otlier things which might 
 be called unnecessary for the maintenance of the force. 
 To the Government I should say, " You must pay 
 " that which the men will otherwise have to pay, 
 '• or which will have to be paid out of their subscrip- 
 " tions," or failing that will have to be obtained by 
 going round with a collecting box, or having theatrical
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT URITAIN. 
 
 115 
 
 amusements or bazaars, and all those things which, I 
 think, are degrading to the force, and to tlie state. 
 
 2656. I think you stated that your corps consisted 
 of 220 men ?— Yes. 
 
 2657. JDo you consider that those 220 men are now 
 in a state of good and efficient militarj' discipline ? — 
 I do ; I am satisfied that with a week's continuous 
 drill .at any time, the whole of the three companies 
 could be put into any battalion or any brigade when- 
 ever they were required, and that they would go 
 through the movements quite in unison with any other 
 corps. I am not comparing them invidiously with 
 the line, but in some points, tor instance in the manual 
 and platoon exercise, I have observed many regi- 
 ments, and am quite satisfied of the efficiency of my 
 corps in that respect; and know that the men tho- 
 roughly understand the bulk of all the movements 
 and all that is necessary to be known by them. 
 There is more difficulty with the officers and non- 
 commissioned officers than with the men. 
 
 2658. Do you feel confident in case of the rifle 
 volunteer force of the country being suddenly called 
 out for public duty, that all the men would be capable 
 of joining in general movements in an adequate state 
 of general discipline and of capacity for the use of 
 their arms ? — Yes, as far as my experience goes. 
 
 2659. (^Major-Gen. Eyre.) What is their efficiency 
 in the use of the rifle as marksmen ? — They have not 
 yet undergone a complete course of musketry instruc- 
 tion ; we have hitherto been restricted to a rifle range 
 of 300 yards, but we have now obtained one that will 
 be from 900 to 1,000 yards. My men are not as 
 yet so perfect in ball practice as many others, but 
 many of them have done very well. 
 
 2660. Have all the men passed through the third 
 class ? — They have not, they are now passing 
 through. 
 
 2661. {Sir G. A. Wetherall.) Do you think they 
 could perform their duty well and be useful if they 
 were called out? — I wish to say distinctly that the 
 volunteers and officers in my corps, without any 
 desire to make a comparison, are as good as, if not 
 above the average, but then I speak generally. I 
 wish also to say that in my opinion the officers of 
 volunteers should not have commissions granted to 
 them so easily as they have now, and that before being 
 granted to them they should pledge themselves to 
 remain in the force for at least three years, and that 
 twelve months after they have been in the force they 
 should be bound to obtain a certificate of their fitness 
 for the discharge of their ordinary regimental duties. 
 I do not mean such an examination as officers in the 
 army have to undergo on military subjects, but suf- 
 ficient to ensure their fitness for the discharge of 
 their duties on parade and in the field. I believe that 
 if that was done the status of the officers would be 
 altogether improved, and it would become, still more 
 than it is at present, an honour to belong to the force. 
 
 2662. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) Do you think that 
 the officers have improved during the last year, com- 
 pared with what they were when you first knew 
 them ? — Very much so, and many of them are endued 
 with a very strong sense of the responsibility of their 
 position, and are gradually becoming what they ought 
 to be and what the Government ought to expect 
 them to be. 
 
 2663. {Sir G. A. Wetherall) Of what classes are 
 the three companies composed ? — The great bulk ot 
 them are artizans. We could have a strong efficient 
 and regular force in the town if the men had not to 
 pay an entrance fee to begin with, and had not to 
 pay subscriptions ; they would willingly give their 
 time and take a pride in belonging to the force, pro- 
 vided they were exempt from money payments. 
 
 2664. Have you observed any improvement in the 
 social habits of the artizans since they became volun- 
 teers ; do they attend more regularly to their work, 
 and are they more sober and orderly in their con- 
 duct ? — I cannot give a positive opinion upon that 
 head, beyond what I have learned from some of their 
 
 employers. Our late mayor spoke at a public meet- 
 ing upon the subject, and he stated that at first ho 
 had objected to tlie volunteer movement, for fear it 
 should lead men to rontracting ioosei' hal)its, but he 
 was very glad to find that he had been mistaken, and 
 I am happy to l)e able to .say that I have not had, 
 with one or two exceptions, any member of the force 
 brought in any shape before the magistrates or the 
 public. 
 
 2665. {j\fajor-Gen. J'Ji/re.) From the kind of assist- 
 ance tliat you recommend to be given to the volunteer 
 force, 1 conclude that you would disapprove of a capi- 
 tation grant ? — No ; I reserved my o|)inion upon that 
 point, and I stated that I was hardly qualified to 
 give an opinion upon it ; perhaps a capitation grant 
 would be the easiest mode of giving it ; but whether 
 or not it would be the best mode of giving it I cannot 
 say. 
 
 2666. {Sir G. A. JVetlicrall.) Are all your com- 
 panies clothed alike ? — They are. 
 
 2667. {Lord Overstojie.) Is it your opinion that if 
 the volunteer force were relieved from the pecuniary 
 charge which they now have to meet the number of 
 the force in the neighbourhood of Oldiiam would be 
 largely increased ? — I think it would. 
 
 2668. On what principle or motive do you think 
 that that large increase would arise ? — From the 
 natural pride of belonging to the force, which cannot 
 at present be gratified, and referring to the men who 
 would join but do not on account of their inaliility and 
 unwillingness to part with any money. 
 
 2669. By natural pride do you moan a feeling of 
 su])eriority over those who are not in the force, and 
 which is engendered by the fact of their being seen 
 in a military costume, or do you allude to any other 
 feeling ? — I believe it is that to a great extent. At 
 the time when the volunteer force was first organized 
 there was then considerable reason for it ; the whole 
 feeling was a popular one, of banding together for 
 the defence of the country. I believe that that feel- 
 ing exists to a very great extent among the artizans 
 in the manufacturing districts, and that it would be 
 encouraged if they found themselves noticed more 
 particularly ; I do not mean by being flattered or 
 praised for the manner in which they perform their 
 evolutions, because that I very much object to unless 
 they are really very good, but what I mean is that by 
 making them a distinct class, and making them feel 
 that their services were acknowledged and valued, 
 and that they felt they became a superior class of 
 men altogether to their fellows by being admitted 
 into the corps. It should be a privilege and distinction 
 to enter it. 
 
 2670. I understand you to mean that there is a 
 spirit prevailing among the artizans in Oldham and the 
 surrounding neighbourhood, and a desire to enrol 
 themselves for the defence of their country in case of 
 need, and that that spirit would be gratified if it were 
 recognized by any acts of a complimentary kind on 
 the part of the Government or the public ? — Yes. 
 
 2671. They would feel a pride in being enrolled 
 for the defence of the country ? — Yes, and if the 
 country was in danger our number would bo quad- 
 rupled. 
 
 2672. Do you think that that feeling would be 
 weakened or increased in proportion as the force was 
 more and more intimately associated with the regular 
 force of the country ? — I think it would be increased 
 the more that it was associated with the regular 
 force of the country. 
 
 2673. Do you think that they would still feel a 
 patriotic pride in the sense that they were becoming 
 more and more identified with that regular force, and 
 were being organized for the defence of the country ? 
 — I think they would ; their importance and useful- 
 ness would be more evident. 
 
 2674. {Major- Gen. El/re.) You have spoken of the 
 strong feeling of opposition that you had to contend 
 with at the beginning of the volunteer movement, is 
 that feeling now worn out ? — In twelve months after 
 
 Q2 
 
 Capt. J. G. 
 Blackhume. 
 
 20 June 1862.
 
 IIG 
 
 jMinutes of evidence taken before the commissioners appointed 
 
 Capt. J. G. 
 Blackburne* 
 
 20 June 1862. 
 
 we had established one company, there came gradually 
 a general change of feeling in our favour, and some 
 of the influential men in the district gave in their 
 adhesion to the movement, and we then raised two 
 more companies, thus proving that such was the case ; 
 and also proving that the conduct of the first company 
 had been such as the town generally approved of. 
 
 2675. The volunteers have reconciled the public to 
 the movement altogether ? — Yes, the volunteer force 
 now is a popular force in Oldham, and any small 
 thing that is done by way of recognition of it ahvp.ys 
 meets with the support of the public. 
 
 2676. You stated that you would not allow the 
 arms to be left in the possession of the men, although 
 it is commonly the case that the men have them in 
 their possession ; why do yon object to it ? — I ob- 
 ject to it for this reason, that the commanding officer 
 has the responsibility of the charge of the arms, and 
 I think that they are always kept in better order 
 when they are under my control and when they are in 
 the armoury. It is not ivith any invidious feeling 
 against the men, but I thiidv that it is an imprudent 
 thing to allow tlie side-arms especially to be in the 
 possession of the men, who like other men may 
 sometimes get too much ale, and might sometimes 
 get into a larawl ; but when the arms are kept in the 
 armoury I am quite satisfied that if there is any 
 fighting going on it will not be with those weapons, 
 which should be kept for other uses. 
 
 2677. ( Viscoiivt Hardinge.) Have you a range ? — 
 Yes, we have now got a range, which is nearly com- 
 pleted, by private arrangement. I have got one, and 
 we hope to get about 900 or 1,000 yards in it ; it has 
 been inspected and approved. 
 
 2678. {Col. MacMiirdo.) You have already got a 
 range of 300 yards ? — Yes. 
 
 2679. ( Tiscount Hardinge.) What has been the 
 expense of the new range ? — It has not cost much 
 yet, but it will probably cost about 250/. to put up a 
 butt and fence it in. 
 
 2680. Have you had nothing to pay for land ? — 
 Not yet ; we are only able to obtain the land ou 
 lease for 14 or 21 years at an annual rent. 
 
 2681. Have you stated how the expense of the 
 clothing in your corps is defrayed ? — Yes, it is jjartly 
 by public subscriptions, and partly by the entrance 
 money and the subscriptions of the men. 
 
 2682. What is the entrance money and the sub- 
 scriptions ? — The entrance money and the subscrip- 
 tion of a man who enters now when he takes one of 
 the cast off uniforms, or the uniform of a man who 
 has left the corps, is very little, — about 1/. or 30^. 
 
 2683. Not for a new outfit ?— No, he takes another 
 man's outfit, he supplies his vacancy ; the original 
 entrance money was, for the first company, three 
 guineas, and for the other two companies oOs. 
 
 2684. Do you find no difficulty in inducing new 
 recruits to take the clothing of those men who have 
 resigned ? — I have in my own company very few 
 who have changed, iu the third company many have 
 changed, but there has been no difficulty in that com- 
 pany as the captain reports to me. 
 
 2685. Have you a balance in favour of the corps ? 
 — ^Yes, we have ; with a great deal of care we have 
 had a balance at the end of each year. 
 
 2686. Do you find that there is any falling off in 
 the subscriptions and donations from honorary mem- 
 bers ? — Not with regard to the subscriptions hitherto, 
 many of thera have duplicated their donations and 
 their subscriptions, but like most other subscriptions 
 they are very precarious, and we have always to go to 
 the same people for money. 
 
 2687. In what shape would pecuniary aid relieve 
 your corps in the most satisfactory way, in clothing, 
 or in meeting other incidental expenses, or what may 
 be termed the regimental expenses ? — The expenses 
 of the corps consist in providing an armoury, and in 
 providing a rifle range ; those are the constant ex- 
 penses, and in providing uniforms, which is only an 
 occasional expense, and those are the three main 
 items which I thiuk should be provided for by the 
 
 Government if they wish to keep this force as a 
 permanent one, leaving the officers' subscriptions, 
 which are considerable iu my corps, and which ac- 
 counts for the balance in hand, to meet all the other 
 incidental expenses. The annual subscriptions of the 
 officers in my corps are 25/. for the captain com- 
 mandant, 20/. for each of the other captains, 15/. for 
 the lieutenants, 10/. for the ensigns, 3/. for the 
 Serjeants, and 30s. for the corporals. 
 
 2688. ( Viscotnit Hardinge.) Are you speaking of 
 the annual subscription ? — Yes ; but besides that, of 
 course the officers are called upon for a variety of 
 other things, such as prizes and other matters ; but I 
 do not ask, on the part of the officers in my corps, to 
 be relieved from any of these expenses ; we are willing 
 to contribute, but we cannot get in the subscriptions 
 of the men, and we do not like to be always begging 
 from those who have heljsed us heretofore. 
 
 2689. Do 3'ou propose that the Government money, 
 if it should be advanced, should be expended in 
 defraying the expenses of armouries, rifle ranges, and 
 uniforms, which would relieve you from the necessity 
 of calling upon the men to pay any subscriptions ? — 
 Yes, that is my proposition. 
 
 2690. {Sir G. A. JVetherall.) If the Government 
 jirovided places ftsr arms and rifle ranges, would your 
 subscriptions enable you to keep them up without 
 requiring any further assistance from the Govern- 
 ment ? — That would depend entirely upon whether 
 those rifle ranges were purchased, or whether they 
 were subject to an annual rent. In my case I shall 
 have a rifle range subject to an annual rent, and with 
 regard to the buildings we found that there was very 
 great inconvenience iu having to depend partly upon 
 the generosity of some jsarties in lending us rooms to 
 drill in, such as school-rooms ; and the inconvenience 
 at a variety of places, arising from our having to go 
 there, that we got up a company among the officers 
 chiefly, in order to enclose a jjavade ground, and to 
 build a small armoury, and drill room. Wo raised 
 about 900/. in shares for that purpose, and took a plot 
 of land which wo have enclosed, near the centre of the 
 town. There will be an annual rent, therefore, for this 
 also. 
 
 2691. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) If the volunteers ob- 
 tained the assistance that you would recommend the 
 Government to afford, I suppose they would readily 
 meet the exjiense of going to and from the shooting 
 grounds, and on field-days ? — That, I think, the sub- 
 scriptions of the officers would cover. I think when 
 they are not summoned to any review by order of the 
 Government, when it would be an official matter and 
 form an exception to the rule, this is one of the things 
 which the officers and honorary members would pay. 
 I think that they should pay for all those things which 
 are not really necessary for the efliciency of the corps. 
 
 2692. {Earl of Diicie.) You have stated that it was 
 possible there would be a considerable increase in the 
 number of the rank and file, if a certain amount of 
 Government assistance were afforded ? — Yes ; but I 
 did not mean to imply that I should encourage or 
 wish for a great augmentation in numbers. I should 
 seek rather to maintain something like the present 
 force; and I would limit it to some fixed number, 
 and not encourage a great influx of members. I think 
 that every corps ought to have an establishment 
 entitling it to the services of an adjutant, but beyond 
 that I do not think it is desirable to increase the 
 number of the force. 
 
 2693. In the event of any of the present officers 
 being removed, do you anticipate any difficulty in 
 supplying their places ? — I do not. 
 
 2694. Although the expenses whicli fall upon them 
 are rather unusually heavy according to your state- 
 ment ? — I do not know at all whether that is so or 
 not ; I cannot speak for other coi-ps. 
 
 2695. {Lord Elcho.) Referring to the subscriptions 
 which you require from the officers iu your corps, do 
 you think that has prevented you from getting better 
 men than you have as officers, but who could not 
 aflbrd the expense ?— I think not.
 
 TO IXQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 ]I7 
 
 2696. You do not think that that has been a bar in 
 any way to your getting good oificcrs ? — Not in the 
 sli<Thfcst degree in my case. Wliere I liave had tho 
 option, I liave chosen tlie oflicers by my opinion 
 of' their fitness for their posts, and 1 must say for 
 liiem that they are quite as good officers as could lio 
 chosen in the town. 
 
 2697. Do you tliinlc tliat a supply of efficient offi- 
 cers ready to come forward and aide to pay these 
 large subscriptions will never be wanting ? — The more 
 permanency that you give to a corps, tho better you 
 will make the whole movement, and tho more certain 
 you will be to retain your officers ; the entbrcement of a 
 certificate aloue from the officers would so rouse their 
 amour proprc that they would be more attached to 
 the force, and you would bo certain to have more 
 regular men in it than if you leave it in its present 
 unsatisfactory position. 
 
 2698. {Earl of Ducic.) What is the population of 
 Oldham, and the area from which you draw your 
 men ? — I should think the population of the area 
 from which we draw the men is about 60,000. 
 
 2699. You draw from that number 220 men ? — Yes. 
 
 2700. Therefore the numlier of men drawn, re- 
 latively to the population, is very small indeed ?— 
 Yes, very small. 
 
 2701. It is much smaller is it not than in other 
 places ? — Much smaller, and that arises partly from 
 the reasons which I have given you, partly from the 
 original opposition offered to the movement, and 
 partly from the inability of the men, particularly at 
 this moment, to pay any entrance money. 
 
 2702. Do }'ou not think that the small proportion 
 of officers and men to so large a population, enables 
 you to find officers who are able to bear these very 
 lieavy expenses ? — I do not think that the officers, as 
 a body, consider that they do bear a very heavy ex- 
 pense ; notwithstanding the amount, I think that 
 they pay their subscriptions cheerfully, but they do not 
 like, in addition to that, to have to take the trouble of 
 sending round to the men, or of calling them out for 
 their subscriptions time after time ; that is a very 
 annoj'ing thing to the officers. 
 
 2703. {Lord Elcho.') Are you acquainted with 
 any other corps in your district in which the same 
 system prevails, and where such large annual sub- 
 scriptions are paid ? — Yes, many. 
 
 2704. And with equal success ? — Yes. 
 
 2705. Can you give the names of them ? — I am 
 afraid I cannot at this moment, but I do know that 
 there are several near to us who do so. 
 
 2706. {Viscmtnt Hardinge.) I presume that these 
 officers, according to your scale of subscriptions, are 
 not called upon for any further expenses, such as 
 giving regimental cups to be shot for ? — Indeed they 
 are ; in the first year, when there was one company, 
 we had no fixed subscriptions from the officers beyond 
 the ordinary subscriptions and the entrance fee, but 
 they subscribed for the band, and for certain other 
 purposes they subscribed also. There were half-a-dozen 
 different subscriptions, and in order to put an end to 
 them all, and to enable a man to know when he came 
 in what it would cost him, I laid down a scale, and 
 the officers have all agreed to that scale, and most of 
 them have come in having a knowledge of it and 
 agreeing to it. 
 
 2707. What does it cost an officer now to hold a 
 company in your corps 
 50Z, 
 50/, 
 horse, &c. 
 
 2708. {Sir A. Campbell.) If you do not obtain such 
 relief as you have suggested, what amount of falling 
 off in the number of your men do you anticipate ? — I 
 think it is very probable that my corps will be reduced, 
 when tho nuiforms are worn out, to oue-fourth or 
 one fifth of its present number. 
 
 2709. Can you give the Commission any informa- 
 tion as to the efiect that will be produced in other 
 corps iu your neighbourhood, by the same cause ? 
 
 I think it costs him about 
 a year. I always consider that it costs me 
 a year at the least, independent of uniform, 
 
 I think that upon the average the same observation 
 would hold good throughout a great proportion of tho 
 manufacturing districts. 
 
 2710. {Lord Overstone.) You have stated that you 
 do not wish to see .iny large increase in the nnmlicra 
 of the volunteer force, but you rather contemplate 
 keeping them at something like a fixed number ?^ 
 Yes. 
 
 2711. Would you regard that fixed number in tho 
 light of a nucleus, round wiiich, in ease of a serious 
 emergency, a larger number of volunteers would 
 assemble ? — Certainly ; and it was for those reasons 
 that I have defended the volunteer movement at 
 public meetings, at which I have stated that that was 
 one of my principal reasons for commencing tho 
 volunteer movement in Oldham, so that when an emer- 
 gency did arise we should have any number of men 
 re.ady to meet it ; and I can say honestly that in the 
 manufacturing districts of Lancashire men would 
 enrol themselves rapidly, if there was any necessity 
 for it ; but there would be no use in their doing .so 
 unless there was a staff, and a nucleus round which 
 the men could be rallied and made useful. 
 
 2712. Supposing it was known throughout South 
 Lancashire that Liverpool was seriously menaced by 
 an invading force, do yon think, under those circum- 
 stances, that the .irtizan class, in common with others, 
 would rapidly augment the numbers of the volunteer 
 force ? — I have no doubt of it, there are no more 
 loyal men in tho kingdom. 
 
 2713. Supposing under those circumstances that 
 your corps, now consisting of 220 men, was augmented 
 to 500, how long do you think it would be before 
 those 500 men would become as efficient as tho pre- 
 sent corps of 220 are ? — If they could bo In-ought 
 together and worked continuously, I should say, 
 giving a rough estimate, perhaps six weeks or two 
 months ; it might possibly t.nke less. 
 
 2714. {Col. Mac3Tu7-do.) The time depending upon 
 the amount of assistance afforded by the Government 
 for instruction ?— Yes. 
 
 2715. ( Viscount Hardinge.') In all probability under 
 such serious circumstances as those, tho new recruits 
 who would join the volunteers would be kept to drill 
 every day, as the old volunteers were in the time of 
 the war, and consequently you would in all proba- 
 bility be able to bring your new recruits into a state 
 of efficiency in a smaller space of time than you have 
 mentioned ? — I think so. It was for that reason that 
 I qualified the opinion which I gave when I said that 
 it might take less. 
 
 2716. {Lord Overstone.) I understand your opinion 
 to be that a certain number of the volunteer force, 
 kept in a high state of discipline now, would be a 
 nucleus round which, in case of a sudden emergency, 
 a very large number might be rapidly collected, and 
 brought rapidly to a state of efficiency ? — Yes. 
 
 2717. You believe that the spirit and feeling which 
 pervades south Lancashire would facilitate that opera- 
 tion ? — Yes. 
 
 2718. {Major Harcourt.) You would prefer in a 
 time of peace to have a small efficient nucleus, but 
 you would also retain a larger number, of men less 
 effective ? — Yes, I should. I think it is far better 
 that this force should be regular in its numbers and 
 that it should become a privilege to belong to it, so 
 that every member connected with it, whether iu 
 the ranks or holding a commission, should feel him- 
 self honoured by belonging to such a force. There 
 is one point that I have not yet alluded to, but which 
 I think is a very important one, and it is that .all 
 members of the force, when effective, should be 
 exempted from serving in any civil office. Ujion a 
 recent occasion, since I have held a connnission, I was 
 summoned to serve as a special -constable, upon the 
 occasion of a religious riot ; it was a serious matter, 
 and I went before the magistrates, who had called 
 out a considerable force of special constables. I 
 employed a solicitor ; but although he could find me no 
 real exemption, the magistrates after hearing me, not 
 only exempted me from serving as a special cou- 
 
 Q 3 
 
 Cnpt. J. G. 
 liUirhhnrne. 
 
 20 June 1862.
 
 118 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Capt. .7. G. 
 Blachbume, 
 
 20 June I8R2. 
 
 stable, but all the other volunteers as a matter of 
 equity and courtesy. I think that the volunteers ought 
 to be exempted from serving any of these civil offices 
 while they are performing their duty in a military 
 capacity. 
 
 2719. {Col. MncMnrdo.) You mean that they 
 should be exempted from serving as constables ? — 
 I mean tliat they should be exempted from all civil 
 duties, such as jiu'ies, constables, overseers, and the 
 like. We all seek to make the force permanent ; — 
 when I say we, I speak of myself, and those especially 
 who promote the force ; — we all seek to give per- 
 manency to it by offering inducements, in addition to 
 the ordinary one of patriotism, to men to join the 
 force and to remain in it. If a man was exempted 
 from performing these civil duties in the same man- 
 ner that a soldier is exempted from them while 
 performing his duties as a soldier, it would be no 
 cost to the country, while there could be no harm in 
 allowing an exemption among so large a population. 
 It is a very great hardship to a man engaged in a 
 small business to have to go, say, to the Manchester 
 or the Salford sessions, and remain there for a week 
 at his own expense, or to go to the Liverpool assizes 
 for a like time. If a man, by being exempted from 
 these duties when he was serving as a volunteer, and 
 if, after 10 or 12 years' service, he was exempted for 
 life, he would have a great inducement to join the 
 volunteers, and to remain in the force, in order to obtain 
 that permanent exemption. There are innumerable 
 things in manufacturing towns to which men are 
 liable, but which are not felt in large to'wns ; for in- 
 stance, a man is called to serve on a coroner's jury, or 
 he is sent to the assizes, and all these things are a 
 very great loss to him. 
 
 2720. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) If all the population 
 were to become volunteers, how would you get those 
 civil duties then performed ? — I stated specially, before 
 I expressed that opinion, that I would limit the number 
 of the volunteers ; I would say, for example, and 
 to take my own town, suppose that I had 400 men 
 em-oUed, what difference would it make out of a 
 population so large, consisting of say 60,000 people 
 including women and children ? It would be nothing, 
 while it would be considered a great boon to the 
 volunteer force. 
 
 2721. {Lord Elcho.) You have stated that you 
 thought the force ought to be limited to its present 
 numbers ? — Yes, I think that is desirable, because I 
 wish it to be made a permanent nucleus, and not an 
 uncertain force moving up and down and influenced 
 just by the whim of the moment. 
 
 2722. Your view is, that if a man volunteers to 
 perform military duties, he ought to be relieved from 
 civil duties ? — Yes, during the time that he performs 
 his duty as an effective volunteer, and then after his 
 service, for a certain number of years, I think he 
 should be exempted for the remainder of his life. 
 
 2723. {Lord Over stone.) You think that if he is 
 called upon to protect the country from external dan- 
 ger he should be exempted from the duty, which is 
 common to all of us, to preserve internal peace ? — I 
 think that it is quite inconsistent with the duties of a 
 volunteer to act as a special constable. He cannot 
 obey two authorities. 
 
 2724. {Chairman.) Are you aware that he is 
 already exempted from that ? — I am informed that it 
 is not so. I do not think that he is exempted from 
 serving as a special constable, and I should like to 
 allude further to the subject of serving as special con- 
 stables. As I understand it, the volunteer force is 
 not to be called upon to suppress ordinary riots ; it is 
 only to be called out to defend the throne of Her 
 Majesty, or to assist in repelling invasion ; and I 
 think that as that is so, and as it is precluded from 
 being called upon to suppress any internal riots, 
 it is very important indeed, to prevent them from 
 being classed with a very useful body of men, and to 
 prevent them from incurring the risk of participating 
 in the unjust odium attached to that class, I mean the 
 yeomanry. I think that it is a very unfair thing 
 
 to take a man and strip off his uniform, and make him 
 serve as a special constalde, and it is not right to put 
 him in that position ; he does not feel himself in his 
 own place when acting as a special constable ; he feels 
 a sort of degradation in being made a special con- 
 stable, while he is apt to be pointed out as a volunteer 
 by the populace, and his duties in the two cases asso- 
 ciated together. Every care should be taken to 
 prevent such a result and to prevent even the most 
 ignorant of the population from viewing the volunteer 
 force as a civil force. 
 
 2725. {3Iajor-Gen. Eyre.) Do you think that 
 the volunteers at all interfere with the recruiting for 
 the militia ? — I think that the volunteer force do not 
 interfere with the militia at all, as they are drawn 
 from quite a different class of men ; the militia are 
 drawn by liounty and by pay, and they are drawn 
 from a very much lower class than the volunteer force 
 could be under any circumstances. I cannot conceive, 
 therefore, how the two forces could be in opposition, for 
 that reason. 
 
 2726. {Col. MacMurdo.) Is the time of your 
 Serjeant instructor fully occupied ? — I think not. I 
 was asked whether we had only one serjeant instruc- 
 tor, and said, that one was sufficient with the ex- 
 ception of musketry instruction. That I think is 
 quite a different branch ; one serjeant instructor 
 for three companies is plenty in all other respects. 
 
 2727. That is the regulation ?— Yes. 
 
 2728. I wish to know whether the time of your 
 serjeant instructor is fully occupied ? — It is not. 
 
 2729. Wiat spare time has he ? — He has the bulk 
 of the day time to himself except on Saturdays when 
 the parades occur. 
 
 2730. Do you think it would interfere with the dis- 
 charge of his duties to the corps if he were allowed 
 to engage in any other trade or occupation ? — I think 
 that that would be very undesirable he should do so. 
 
 2731. For what reason ? — I think he ought to be 
 perfectly independent of any trade, and should not be 
 in such a position that a volunteer might go to him 
 for anything whatever, thati £ to say to purchase as a 
 customer ; I think he should be perfectly independent 
 of that. 
 
 2732. You are of opinion that such a principle as 
 that would be -m-ong ? — Yes ; and I think the present 
 one is quite right. 
 
 2733. You think that if a serjeant instructor were 
 allowed to engage in any trade or occupation it would 
 be liable to abuse ? — I think so. 
 
 2734. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do you feel yourself 
 armed with sufficient authority as a commanding offi- 
 cer ? — I do. 
 
 2735. ( Col. MacMitrdo.) Do you find any difficulty 
 in controlling the serjeant instructor ? — I have ex- 
 perienced none. 
 
 2736. Some witnesses have stated that they desired 
 to see one uniform system of discipline, do you find 
 any want of that ? — I entertain the opinion that the 
 present system is amply sufficient to keep up the force 
 if the commanding officers will only pay attention to 
 their duties, and exercise those duties with discretion 
 and enforce the rules of their respective corps. 
 
 2737. Are not the duties of commanding officers 
 defined ? — I am not aware that they are specially de- 
 fined, but I find no difficulty, and I see no difficulty 
 in tlie organization of the corps at present. 
 
 2738. You think that the power of the command- 
 ing officers, and the code of discipline are sufficient 
 for the force with its present constitution ? — Yes ; 
 with the 14 days ; you have no hold upon the men 
 beyond that, and you must rule the men with judg- 
 ment, or you cannot rule them at all. 
 
 2739. {Sir A. Campbell.) You would propose to 
 substitute three years' enrolment ? — Yes. 
 
 2740. How would you apply that to the members 
 of the existing force ? — I think that if the Govern- 
 ment gave assistance to the force, they ought to have 
 in return a force for giving that assistance, and that 
 is why I say that they ought not to bo called upon to 
 incur great expenses per head for these men, unless
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 110 
 
 there was a certainty that they would liavc these men 
 as a nucleus, and that such nucleus should not consist 
 partly of old volunteers and partly of I'ccruits. 
 
 2741. How would you get the men to be attested 
 for a longer period ? — They can leave at 14 days' 
 notice as it is, and if there was a new law, it would be 
 quite optional to them either to remain as they are, and 
 find their own accoutrements, or enter for a longer 
 period ; I should niiike it a condition that those men 
 who enrolled for that time should not be called ui)on 
 for subscriptions, and that certain exemptions ironi 
 civil offices should be extended to them, as I have 
 before stated. 
 
 2742. (Earl of Ducie.) You would then have two 
 classes in the service ; the short service men and the 
 long service men ? — Yes ; take, for instance, the 1 st 
 Manchester, which I happen to know ; they might, but 
 I do not say they would prefer remaining under the 
 short service, and find everything themselves. 
 
 2743. (Col. MacMiirdo.) Do you think that you 
 would have a greater hold over the volunteers if they 
 served for a longer period ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 2744. You would not have any greater power as 
 commanding officer over a' volunteer who served for the 
 longer iieriod than over the others ? — No power cer- 
 tainly in addition, but he must obey orders ; and if 
 enrolled lor the longer period he must not leiivo on 
 any freak of his own while I think that his pride would 
 induce him to remain in the force and become efficient, 
 but at present, if a man happens to be lazy, or dis- 
 inclined to do this or that, and thinks the discipline 
 too severe for him, or the parades too frequent, or 
 something of that kind, he leaves at 14 days' notice. 
 
 2745. If he were lazy under the shorter period of 
 14 days, he would probably not be more diligent 
 under the longer period ? — I think he would ; when 
 a man may be called to the front for negligence in his 
 manual exercise, or for any of those things, such as 
 non-attendance, and reprimanded, you would have, 
 I think, a much better hold over him. Most men court 
 
 praise among the class from which volunteers are 
 drawn. 
 
 2746. If it were a case of non-attendance, how 
 would you call a man to the front if he did not choose 
 to attend the parades ? — You could not in that case, 
 and there will be always some difficulty of that sort 
 in connexion with a volunteer force. I do not see 
 any way to placing the volunteer force under such a 
 state of discipline as you can enforce in the regular 
 army, or in the militia, whom you pay. I think that 
 is impossible. 
 
 2747. You think that you would have a greater moral 
 hold over a volunteer whose period of service was 
 long rather than short ? — Yes;Ithink that rules mighi 
 be made and adopted which would place them on a 
 sound foundation in this respect. 
 
 2748. (Lord Elcho.) By rules adopted by corps do 
 you mean lines for non-attendance ? — Yes, partially. 
 
 2749. Do you at present impose fines in your 
 corps ? — Yes. 
 
 2750. Do you enforce them ? — Yes, we do. 
 
 2751. Are they heavy ? — They arc rather heavy, 
 Qd. in the 2ud and 3rd. companies, and ]*■. in the 1st, 
 for non-attendance every fortnight. 
 
 2752. If a man does not attend parade once a fort- 
 night, he is fined 6c?. or \s. according to the company 
 in which he happens to be ? — Yes, it is always 
 booked against him, and sometimes the fines are col- 
 lected. We have never brought any man before the 
 magistrates, but whenever a man leaves the corps he 
 is called upon to pay all his fines. 
 
 2753. Are those fines effectual ? — No ; sometimes 
 they are not, but they are a considerable advantage 
 nevertheless. I can give you an example : I had a 
 lazy man iu my company who never kept his uni- 
 form in order ; it was the worst in the corps, and 
 he seldom attended parade. I fined him, and his fines 
 amounted to 1/. \9s., which he paid up before he left 
 the corps. 
 
 Capt. J. G. 
 Bhckhurne. 
 
 20 June 1862. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Lieut.- Gen. Edward Pery Buckley, M.P., examined. 
 
 2754. (Chairman.) You command the Wiltshire 
 Eifle Volunteers ?— The South Wiltshii-e. 
 
 2755. Is that an administrative battalion ? — Yes. 
 
 2756. Of how many companies does it consist ? — 
 Nine. 
 
 2757. How many men do you muster altogether ? 
 — There are about 700 on the list, but we never get 
 that number together. 
 
 2758. How often do you have battalion drills ? — 
 Last year we had three, but this year we have only 
 had one. 
 
 2759. Can you muster all the men at the battalion 
 drills ? — By no means. I have never mustered 400, 
 and the I'cason will be readily seen ; it is owing to 
 the very extensive area over which the battalion is 
 scattered ; there is the whole of the south, Trow- 
 bridge and Bradford in the north, in order to equalize 
 the numbers, and the consequence is that when they 
 meet they have to come by railway, and when they 
 do meet some of them who are at a considerable dis- 
 tance have to travel both by road and by railway, 
 and the expense of coming to any one point is large, 
 and it is a consideration to them ; then, again, they 
 like to meet at different places and not always at the 
 same place ; and if I assemble them at Salisbury, 
 those from Bradford and the north have a long way 
 to come ; and it is not only the expense, but the 
 short time that can be allowed for them ; the railway 
 companies make no very great difierence in the fare 
 for taking them backwards and forwards, and the 
 consequence is that I have never had more than 400 
 assembled together. I think it is more imjiortant 
 that the battalion should meet for battalion drill than 
 to have 7,000 or 8,000 assembled for a great review. 
 
 2760. Have you many opportunities of seeing your 
 companies ? — I have occasionally visited some of them 
 
 separately ; but the companies are so completely corps, 
 under the commanding captains, that I have nothing 
 to do with them as companies ; they are entirely 
 under the dominion of the captains. When they are 
 together I command them, and I have a great deal 
 of correspondence to carry on. 
 
 2761. Have you calculated what the expense is of 
 bringing your men together ? — Yes ; it varies, and 
 depends upon the place at which they meet ; but, 
 taking it at the most central place, which is War- 
 minster, the last time that they came there, it cost 
 them about 46/. in different expenses, calculating it 
 at so much a mile, and supposing each company to 
 have mustered 50 men. 
 
 2762. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Was that money ex- 
 pended for refreshments ? — No ; merely tlie expense 
 of the journeys, they ])robably took refreshments with 
 them. I do not think that they can 1)0 calculated ; 
 they ought to take them in their havresack. If they 
 came to Salisbury, which is an extreme point, or 
 Trowbridge, or Bradford, it would be more. 
 
 2763. (Major-Gen. Eyre.) Does each man pay for 
 that himself ? — Yes ; but occasionally the captains 
 have made it up, as they do not like the men to be at 
 that expense. 
 
 2764. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Is it not the practice 
 in your battaliou to defray these expenses out of the 
 local funds of each corps ? — They do that sometimes ; 
 some of the companies have not attended, and they 
 think that it ought not to come .out of that fund. 
 Lord Edward Seymour's company did not attend on 
 the last occasion, which is one of the most efficient 
 companies. He said that it ought not to come out of 
 the fund, and they did not come. 
 
 2765. Do you think that that is a legitimate way of 
 spending the funds of the corps ? — I think that there 
 
 Q4 
 
 Lieut.-Gen. 
 
 E. P. Buckley, 
 
 M.P.
 
 120 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 M.P. 
 
 20 June 1862. 
 
 Licut.-Gcn. ought to be some provision foi* it. I think it is hard 
 E. P. Buckhij, to expect every raiin to pay each time, for they are 
 not like tlie corps in London, who are tvcU to do ; 
 they are little tradesmen. Some are very efficient 
 men, but they do not like to pay the expenses of their 
 journeys three or four times a year. 
 
 2766. {Chairmrin.) Have you any battalion fund ? 
 —No. 
 
 27G7. Do the men in your battalion clothe them- 
 selves ? — I think they did in the first instance, but 
 now the clothing is getting rather shabby, and that is 
 a difliculty. and they rather make it a grievance that 
 it is an expense to them. 
 
 2768. When the clothing requires renewal, do you 
 think there will be any difficulty in renewing it ? — I 
 think they will do that, but I think they arc rather 
 holding back now in the hope that something will bo 
 done. 
 
 2769. Are all the companies provided with ranges ? 
 — Yes, I think they are ; that they do themselves. 
 
 2770. Are those all paid for out of the funds of 
 those companies ? — Yes, except what is allowed by 
 the Government ; some of the captains pay, one does 
 not know what, but some of them pay for a drill 
 instructor, and they are at considerable expense indi- 
 vidually. 
 
 2771. Did you ever hear complaints made of the 
 expense of those ranges ? — No complaints have been 
 made to me. 
 
 2772. {Earl of Ducie.) I believe that the geogra- 
 phical conditions of your district enable you to obtain 
 ranges rather more easily tlian in other counties ? — 
 Yes, from the nature of the country, being very open. 
 
 2773. {Lord Overstonc.') You have stated that 
 your corps consists of about 700 men in round num- 
 bers ? — Yes. 
 
 2774. But you seldom or never get 400 men to- 
 gether ? — I think I have never had 400 men to- 
 gether. 
 
 2775. These men are drawn from a very extensive 
 area throughout Wiltshire ? — Yes. 
 
 2776. What, in your opinion, would be the effi- 
 ciency of a corps consisting of 400 men, whom you 
 draw from a very extensive area, in case of a sudden 
 demand for their services to resist invasion ? — I think 
 they would be very efficient ; the chances are that 
 they would be got together a little time before, and 
 when they were together I think they would be very 
 efficient. 
 
 2777. Do you anticipate any difficulty in bringing 
 together to one point those men ? — The railroads are 
 so convenient that there would be no difficulty in as- 
 sembling them in the county at a very short notice. 
 
 2778. Upon the supposition that either Liverpool, 
 or Portsmouth, or Bristol, was suddenly and seriously 
 menaced by a foreign invading force, do you think 
 that your corps could be brought to the assistance of 
 the regular army to protect those places expedi- 
 tiously? — They could be in a very short time, owing 
 to the railways, say in a few hours. 
 
 2779. Your opinion is founded on your military 
 experience, that that body of men would be useful 
 and valuable for the purpose of internal or national 
 defence ? — Most decidedly so. 
 
 2780. Are you able to extend that opinion more 
 widely, and to pronounce it generally with respect to 
 the effect and character of the volunteer movement ? 
 — Yes, I should say that the force would be very 
 efficient, and could be got together in a very short 
 time. I think you might get very valuable assistance 
 from them ; but I have had no experience in my own 
 own battalion, for I have not seen it out more than 
 once or twice. I was only appointed at the beginning 
 of last year. 
 
 2781. Can you express any opinion as to the 
 present state of efficiency of the volunteer force 
 generally as to their discipline and their capacity to 
 use their arms ? — There was a review the other day 
 at Biistol of about 8,000 men, and the report that I 
 received from my adjutant was that the men were 
 exceedingly efficient, and went through their ma- 
 
 nccuvres very well ; that their discipline was every- 
 thing he could expect. 
 
 2782. What is the largest number of the volunteers 
 that you have personally seen together ? — Except in 
 London I have never seen a large number together. 
 
 2783. Then you cannot, from any personal obser- 
 vation of a large numljer of the volunteers brought 
 together, pronounce an opinion as to their fitness to 
 act as a comljincd body ? — No. 
 
 2784. But you think that the discipline, so far as 
 it has come under your notice, is sufficient to enable 
 them to render valuable service in case of external 
 danger ? — I certainly think so. 
 
 2785. ( Viscount JIardingr.) Would it be possible 
 or advisable to put the volunteers, in the event of 
 any further aid being given by the Government, 
 under a stricter system of discipline or a greater 
 amount of military control ? — That, I think, is 
 rather a difficult question to answer ; for I think if 
 you attempted too much discipline, or put them too 
 much under the control of the military authorities, 
 you would, perhaps, lose a great number of men. 
 
 2786. Do you think that the authority of the 
 colonel commanding an administrative battalion is 
 sufficiently defined ? — It is hardly defined at all. I 
 believe they have very little power. 
 
 2787. Your authority as colonel commanding a 
 battalion is, in a great measure, confined to your 
 being on parade yourself ? — Yes, I am told that I 
 have not the power to punish a man, supposing a 
 necessity should arise, and that it must be done 
 entirely through the captain of the corps. 
 
 2788. Do you see your way to giving the colonel 
 a greater amount of authority ? — No ; I think that 
 when they are together the colonel exercises such a 
 degree of influence that they are all perfectly ready 
 to be amenable to any wish that he has. 
 
 2789. That would, of course, depend u]>on the 
 good feeling that existed between the colonel and 
 his captains ? — Yes. 
 
 2790. Do you think that the returns of the effec- 
 tives and the non-effectives in each corps, as far as 
 you are aware, have been correctly made ?— Yes ; I 
 think they have. 
 
 2791. You do not think that men are returned as 
 effective, who are really not so ? — I think not ; they 
 are those who have gone through a certain number of 
 drills. 
 
 2792. Do you think that if further aid was given 
 by the Government a fewer number of drills than 
 18 or 24, as now prescribed by the Act of Parliament, 
 would be sufficient ? — Perhaps they might, if the 
 men could meet oftener than they do now. 
 
 2793. You are aware that at the present time 18 
 or 24 drills are necessary to constitute an eftectivc ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2794. Would a fewer number of drills be sufficient ? 
 —I can hardly speak to that point ; I do not think 
 they would attend very regularly the whole of them, 
 for their time is so much taken up ; I can hai'dly say. 
 
 2795. Might not the Government fairly say, if we 
 give you further aid we may fairly expect you to 
 continue as efficient a force as you are at present ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 2796. {Chairman.) Is there any mode which you 
 can suggest by wliich you think the efficiency of the 
 volunteer force can be maintained or improved ? — I 
 think, as far as my experience has gone, that if the 
 travelling expenses of going backwards and forwards 
 were defrayed to a greater extent by a fund given to 
 captains of corps to be used for that purpose, making 
 them render an account of how it was expended, and 
 in certain cases to clothe some of the men, it would 
 be a good thing. 
 
 2797. Do you mean a capitation grant to be given 
 to the commanding officer of each company, or each 
 battalion, and that it should be limited to certain 
 expenditure, and that the officer to whom the money 
 was entrusted should render an account of the way in 
 which it had been spent ? — Yes. 
 
 2798. Would you limit that grant to the number
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 121 
 
 of efficient men on the roll ? — Yes ; and I think it 
 ■would be a good thing to do it, as it might cause a 
 certain number to attend of'tener, and thereby increase 
 the number of the effectives. 
 
 2799. What should you consider the best test of 
 the effectives ? — The number of times they had at- 
 tended at their drills. 
 
 2800. And a certificate, I presume, that they could 
 perform the manual and platoon exercise ? — Yes. 
 
 2801. And that they had passed tlu-ough a course 
 of musketry instruction ? — Yes ; they are obliged to 
 do that now before they can be returned as effectives; 
 they must go through a certain number of drills. 
 
 2802. How many drills do you think it is necessary 
 to enforce ujjon the volunteers ? — I can Iiardly say, 
 lint I think that what they go through now is suf- 
 ficient for that purpose. 
 
 2803. Are they not rather more timn suflicient for 
 the purpose ? — If they attend every one of them jier- 
 haps they might do with fewer, but I think that if 
 they attended a fewer number of times more regularly 
 that might do. 
 
 2804. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) To entitle them to bo 
 called effective, do you not think that a certain 
 amount of target practice should be made a sine q}ia 
 71011 ? — I think so. 
 
 2806. To go through the 3rd class, at all events ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2806. ( Viscount Hardinge.') In your companies, I 
 suppose the attendance at target practice counts as a 
 drill ? — Yes, I suppose so, but I have very little to 
 do with it ; that does not come under my notice ; 
 that is attended to by the captains of the companies. 
 
 2807. {Lord Elcho.) You have staled that you 
 flunk your men are now holding out'with reference to 
 renewing their clothing, in the hojie that something 
 will lie done ? — Yes. 
 
 2808. Is there a feeling on the jiart of your men 
 that their clothing ought to be provided for them ? — 
 I think there is a sort of feeling that something more 
 ought to be done for them ; I think they have a dis- 
 position to make a little growling until something is 
 done, and I wafe obliged to check a little feeling of 
 that kind. I reminded them that they had enlisted 
 as volunteers, and that they must not look too much 
 to the country for assistance. 
 
 2809. If this Commission should recommend that a 
 certain sum of money should be given to the com- 
 manding officer, of which he might expend a portion 
 at his discretion in clothing, do you think that the 
 men would think it at all derogatory to receive 
 clothing in that way ? — No, not in the country liat- 
 talions, if it were done judicially; some would not 
 accept it, but others would be glad of it. 
 
 2810. {Lord Overstone.) Do you think that the 
 demand for assistance from the Government arises 
 from a feeling that the present cost is troublesome to 
 the volunteers, and that it does not emanate from a 
 feeling amongst them, that if they give their per- 
 •sonal services they are entitled to expect the country 
 to meet the expenses ? — I think that they have got 
 to know their own value a little, and that the country 
 looks upon them as very useful, and therefore they 
 think that something ought to be done for them to 
 repay them for their services. 
 
 The witness withdrew 
 
 2811. Do you think that the demand for pecuniary 
 assistance proceeds to a considerable degree from tlu> 
 feeling that they are entitled to tin equivalent for 
 their services to the country ? — Yes, to a certain ex- 
 tent, but not entirely an ecpiivalent ; they exjiect that 
 certain things will lie given to them that they may 
 not be entirely out of pocket. 
 
 2812. {Viscount Ihirdinyc.) Do jou think that 
 the allowance made to the adjutant is, generally 
 speaking, sufficient ? — No, certainly not ; he has a 
 great deal to do, and I think that he i.s very ill paid ; 
 he is ahvaj's going aljoul, and he stated that if it were 
 not for the hospitality of the diflerent captains ho 
 should bo out of pocket ; Init when he goes to visit 
 tlie different companies and he cannot get back that 
 night, they take him in, ))Ut except for that his ex- 
 penses would be very (considerable. 
 
 2813. Does he keep a horse? — No; I think ho 
 hires one. 
 
 2184. Can he reach his cotniianies princi|)ally by 
 railways ? — JMostly, and his horse is of very little use 
 to him in visiting the companies, except one or two of 
 them. 
 
 2815. Can you state whether he visits the different 
 companies once a month, or is that not the average ? 
 — He visits them, I think, certainly once a month ; 
 he is obliged to make a return as to how often he 
 visits them ; a quarterly return, showing how many 
 times in the course of a quarter he visits them. 
 
 2816. He cannot receive his pay without making 
 that quarterly return ? — No, and he is always visiting 
 them ; he constantly writes to me, telling me where 
 he has been, and in what condition he finds the diffe- 
 rent companies. 
 
 2817. {Sir A. Campbell.') Does he give the muske- 
 try instruction as well as attend to the drill ? — Yes, 
 he has been down to Hytlie ; he takes the general 
 superintendence. There is great difficulty in getting 
 the companies to wear a unitbrm of the same colour ; 
 every company differs from the rest. I have had two 
 meetings, and at the first meeting they agreed to my 
 proposition, that at the end of three years they would 
 adopt the same colour. At another meeting, which had 
 reference to what that colour should be, there was a 
 small majority in favour of its being a uniform colour ; 
 but they do not seem to like to abide by that ; having 
 begun with one colour, they are very jealous of being 
 made to take another ; and again, a man now joining 
 a company does not like it, and selects a diftercnt 
 colour from that which the rest of them wear, as he 
 will be singular. 
 
 2818. Would it be possible, do you think, for the 
 lord-lieutenant to take up that matter, and decide 
 what the uniform colour of the company or battalion 
 should be ? — I think that that is the only way in 
 which it could be done, if it were done judiciously ; 
 after ascertaining in the first instance what colour 
 they liked, then to say that that should be the colour 
 worn. I do not think they like the idea of changing. 
 I believe Lord Winchester, in the first instance, looked 
 into the thing, and he ordered one colour to be worn. 
 
 2819. Are you aware how that lias worked, and 
 whether there has been any dissatisfaction expressed 
 at the decision ? — I fancy not ; I have not heard 
 of it. 
 
 -Lieut. Gen. 
 
 E. P. Buckhy, 
 
 M.P. 
 
 20 June 18G2. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Edward Moseley Perkins examined. 
 
 2820. {Chairman.') You command an administra- 
 tive battalion ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 2821. In Durham ?— Yes. 
 
 2822. Of how many companies docs that battalion 
 consist ? — It consists of 10 companies, actually. 
 
 2823. What number do you muster together ? — 
 Our last quarterly return shows a strength of 770 
 effi^ctives, the maximum establishment being 1,105 ; 
 with 11 companies, but there is one corps of four 
 companies, which consists, in point of fact, only of 
 three. 
 
 2824. Do you find that you muster anything like 
 
 that number at the battalion drills ? — We muster 
 very well on certain occasions, but our corps are too 
 far apart to muster in great strength frequently ; for 
 instance, at the review which took \i\i\ce at Lambton 
 park the other day, we mustered 620 men, but that 
 was a great occasion ; our average attendance, I see, 
 is about 200. 
 
 2825. Do you visit these separate companies and 
 inspect them, separately, as well as drill them together 
 in battalion ? — Yes ; the adjutant goes once a week, 
 and I go to visit them as fretpiently as I can. 
 
 2826. Do you find that you have sufhcieut autho- 
 
 R 
 
 Lieut.-Col 
 E. M. Perkins.
 
 122 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAJKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 20 June 1862. 
 
 Zieut.-Col. rity as commandant of the battalion ? — Quite so ; I 
 E. M. Perkins, never have my authority disputed for a moment in 
 any way. 
 
 2827. Have you a battalion fund ? — We have not ; 
 There is no battalion fund, but the expenses of bat- 
 talion meetings have hitherto been defrayed by the 
 officers of that corps at or near whose headquarters 
 the assembly takes place ; with the exception of the 
 expenses of the transport of the corps to the place of 
 meeting, they have always been defrayed by the 
 officers of the respective corps. 
 
 2828. You mean the officers of each separate 
 corps ? — Yes. 
 
 2829. Are you aware whether they have a fund 
 in each of the separate corps ? — In two of the corps 
 they certainly have what may be called a public fund, 
 but in the other corps the expenses fall almost 
 entirely upon the officers, and their more immediate 
 friends. The 7th corps in the city of Durham has 
 many honorary members in it, I believe so many that 
 they get a good deal of money. I do not know what 
 their financial condition is precisely. The Beamish 
 corps is the 10th, and that is maintained almost 
 exclusively by the officers and their immediate friends. 
 The Chester-le-Street corps have a public subscrip- 
 tion, and the other corps are almost entirely composed 
 of workpeople employed in the manufactories in the 
 neighbourhood of the Tyne, and the proprietors of 
 those works, and the officers and their more im- 
 mediate friends, pay whatever deficiency there is 
 short of the subscriptions. 
 
 2830. Are the men clothed principally at their own 
 expense ? — Some of them are clothed at their own 
 expense, but in the artizan corps I have always found 
 that whenever they are clothed nominally at their 
 own expense eventually there is a public subscrip- 
 tion required to pay for the clothes ; the men start 
 in debt, and they have no opportunity of ever getting 
 out of debt again. 
 
 2831. Has each of these corps a rifle range of its 
 own ? — Yes. 
 
 2832. And an armoury ? — Yes. 
 
 2833. Are those paid for out of the funds of the 
 ■Yes, out of the general funds of the corps. 
 
 2834. When the clothing of your men requires 
 renewal do you anticipate that there will he any 
 difficulty in renewing it ? — I anticipate very great 
 difficulty in all the artizan corps, for it will throw too 
 great a burden upon individuals and the men cannot 
 afford it. 
 
 283.5. The individuals to whom you allude I 
 presume are the officers ? — Yes, and their uumediate 
 friends. Sometimes they get up amusements, and 
 they beg of the public in one way and another ; by a 
 return that I have received to-day I perceive that 
 one corps has made a great deal of money in that 
 way, but it is not a very pleasant thing to turn 
 one's self into a temporary publican. 
 
 2836. Do you think that you lose the services of 
 a great number of efficient men who would act as 
 officers, owing to the great expense that they would 
 be liable to ? — I think that it does deter many persons 
 from joining who would otherwise join, but I think 
 that we have an ample number of officers, if they 
 would only learn their duties ; I think that the ques- 
 tion of expense deters the men more than the officers. 
 
 2837. Have your officers put themselves under the 
 orders of any military authority, or have they been 
 attached to any regiment to learn their duties ?— I 
 do not think that any officer in my battalion, e::?cept 
 myself, has ever been attached to any regiment of 
 the line ; I was attached to the 1st battalion of the 
 60th rifles, but none of the others have been. We have 
 an adjutant and a drill instructor to each corps, and 
 as a rule, I consider that the officers in our battalion 
 are a very good average sample. 
 
 2838. Do you pay the adjutant more than he 
 receives from the Government ? — Nothing. 
 
 2839. Or your drill serjeant ? — The drill Serjeants 
 receive a small pay in addition to what they receive 
 from the Government and rather more than we ex- 
 pected, because we thought that they,were to have 
 
 corps ?- 
 
 billet money, which has since been deducted by some 
 subsequent order. 
 
 2840. Do you think that the corps under your 
 command require assistance from the public to 
 enable them to maintain their present state of effi- 
 ciency ? — I do not hesitate for one moment to say 
 that it is of vital consequence to them to receive such 
 assistance. I do not think that they want a very great 
 deal more than they have, but they want something, 
 and I think that they are entitled to it ; I think that 
 if they receive it j'ou may have a pei-manent and very 
 efficient force, but wirhout that assistance I am afraid, 
 with some exceptional instances, that the force will 
 dwindle. 
 
 2841. To what extent, in your opinion, ought that 
 assistance to be given and in what manner ? — My 
 experience has been obtained entirely in the working 
 of an administrative corps, and not a consolidated 
 corps ; each has its own peculiar advantages and dis- 
 advantages, but my remarks will apply entirely to an 
 administrative regiment; I think that if the volunteer 
 force is to be made permanent, the whole of the 
 equipment should be provided. 
 
 2842. ( Viscoiait Hardinge.^ Do you mean including 
 the uniform ? — Yes, I think that they ought to have 
 a dress suit for great parades, and on great occasions, 
 and the only way by which you can arrive at any- 
 thing like a uniformity of colour is to have a colour 
 fixed upon by the Government, and to say to the men 
 " you must have that and no other, or else provide 
 " your own." I think also that every man should have a 
 fatigue suit, for we knock our uniforms about by learn- 
 ing drill in them frightfully, and have a great coat, 
 or something of that sort, and a sufficient supply of 
 ammunition. In an administrative regiment I think 
 that there should be an allowance of some sort to 
 meet the expenses of getting the corps together, for 
 it is a very great expense to bring a corps together. 
 
 2843. {Chairman.) On all battalion field days ? — 
 Yes ; in page 66 of the volunteer regulations, there 
 are two letters, one written by the late Lord Herbert, 
 and the other written by Sir James Yorke Scarlett, 
 referring to the necessity of getting the men together; 
 and if there is a necessity to get them together they 
 are practically debarred from it by the expense of 
 attending, and the organization in battalions is, so to 
 say, rendered of no avail. I do not think that it need 
 be very much. I have gone into the matter as nearly 
 as I can so as to arrive at what it might be estimated 
 at in an administrative battalion ; and I think that 
 there should be an allowance made for the expenses 
 of assembling together, (which do not fall upon 
 consolidated corps) of about l*. Qd. i)er man on 
 parade for eight battalion drills during June, July, 
 and August, one of which should be the official' in- 
 spection, provided that at least a certain proportion 
 of the enrolled strength is present on the ground ; 
 that it should be paid to the commanders of the 
 various corps comprised in the battalion by the com- 
 manding officer and the adjutant through official 
 channels ; I am satisfied that it costs 2s. a man, every 
 time we assemble at battalion drill, on the average, 
 for mere transport. 
 
 2844. ( Viscount Hardinge.') How do you calculate 
 that ? — First, I take the railway fare and the expense 
 of conveyances of one sort and .another ; I do not 
 include any time in that calculation. 
 
 2845. Would it not be very difficult to fix upon 
 any definite sum for ditferent battalions, as they are 
 so differently situated with regard to the radius of the 
 distance from headquarters ? — Yes ; I think that 
 ours are as well situated as any are. 
 
 2846. {Col. MacMurdo.) Your companies are all 
 within 10 miles ? — Yes. 
 
 2847. ( Viscount Hardinge.) The sum that you 
 would suggest for each eft'ective would be applicable 
 to your own battalion ; but not to battalions gene- 
 rally ? — There are some battalions that I think can 
 hardly be got together at all ; for example, there is 
 the Northumberland battalion, of which Lord Tan- 
 kerville is the commander, and J believe thai some 
 of those corps are an enoi'mous distance from bead-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OUEAT BRITAIN. 
 
 123 
 
 quarters, with no railway communication for their 
 accommodation ; but the railway conipiiny, with us, 
 will put on one special train at Durham, and that 
 will go along the line and pick up all the corps at 
 the various stations at an average of from \s. to Is. 6rf. 
 there and back. 
 
 2848. (Lord Elcho.') Has Lord Tankerville's corps 
 ever been brought together ? — I believe it luis never 
 been brought together. His inspection is coming off 
 next month, and I think I heard him say the other 
 day that he did not expect that the corps whicli was 
 raised at Mr. Beamont's works, would be i)resent ou 
 account of the distance from the point of assembly. 
 
 2849. ( Viscount Hardingc.) What i* the greatest 
 distance from headquarters of any of your com- 
 panies ? — The greatest distance is nine miles ; but as 
 regards most of the corps we can asscmlile four, or 
 five, or six companies always with very little notice, 
 but they have to march some two or three miles. The 
 corps that I am more particularly connected with, 
 and which has been raised under my own eye, I think 
 has only been by railway twice. They have marched 
 on most occasions to the ground, on other occasions 
 they have gone part of the distance iu carts. 
 
 2850. What is the average distance that those com- 
 panies who travel by railway have to march to the 
 railway? — With regard to those companies at Wash- 
 ington and Felling, the railway goes within 200 yards 
 of the armoury. 
 
 2851. Then those men have only the expense of 
 their railway tickets to meet ? — Yes. 
 
 2852. The other companies in your battalion are at 
 the expense of going in carts ? — Yes. 
 
 285.3. How would you appropriate any aid that 
 might be given, so much per effective to the different 
 companies ? — I think upon an average ; for instance, 
 when the battalion parade is near to the railway, the 
 corps in the liattalion which are situated ou the line 
 of the railway have little further expense beyond the 
 railway fare out, when we have a battalion meeting 
 in another direction, and the railway is not avail- 
 able, then they have to travel five or six miles, either 
 marching or in carts so that the average expense of 
 each corps would be about the same. 
 
 2854. You would arrange your battalion drills so 
 as to make it equally fair to all ? — We endeavour to 
 do so. I have never had a full battaliou parade near 
 my own residence on that very account. 
 
 2855. Your calculation for each effective, the 
 longest distauce that any of your companies are from 
 headquarters being nine miles, could only be made 
 to apply to your own particular battaliou ? — Yes. I 
 have no data to go by so as to form an ojjinion in re- 
 spect of other battalions. The North-eastern Railway 
 Company have been tolerably liberal with us ; they 
 take us at a single fare and they will put ou a special 
 train, which is a great convenience. I am speaking 
 now entirely of my own battalion and other artizan 
 corps. I think that as the men give their time that 
 is all that can be expected of them. 
 
 2856. (Chairman.) You spoke just now of the 
 equipment ; what sum would you suggest as neces- 
 sary to cover the expense of the equipment? — I think, 
 as far as I can judge, although it is rather difficult to 
 get at it, that the dress suit would average about 
 10*. 6d. a man per annum ; and the fatigue dress 
 about the same ; it would, of course, be cheaper, 
 but it would not last so long. A great coat or a 
 cape would cost about 4s. a year per man, the belts 
 would cost about 3s.; the ammunition is now supplied 
 by the Government. But we should have more. Each 
 enrolled member should have 150 rounds of ball 
 cartridge, and 150 rounds of blank cartridge supplied 
 to them per man, for I know the keenness with which 
 the men go to target practice, and the}' attend or- 
 dinary parades very much better when they are going 
 to fire than when no blank ammunition is served out. 
 The adjutant costs about 6s., and if there is a drill 
 allowance, it would come, I think, to 15s. per effective; 
 we are found the serjeant instructor, and I think 
 that in a large corps we ought to have a serjeant 
 
 armourer. These two would cost about 15s. per 
 man per annum. I think that it would save expense 
 liy having a mau to attend in the armoury to clean 
 the rifles ; that at present is entirely done at the 
 expense of the corps ; and where men of that class 
 take their rifles home with them, it is utterly im- 
 possible to keep them under proper supervision ; a 
 man, perhaps, does not come to drill for two or three 
 months, and his rifle becomes as rusty as a gas pipe ; 
 most of the corps in my battalion, have all their rifles 
 lodged every night when they come home, whether it 
 is 10, or 11, or 12, or 1 in the morning ; the whole 
 expense of the above items is about 3/. 12s. per man 
 per aiuium. 
 
 2857. (Sir A. Campbell.) Including what is already 
 given ? — This includes a good deal of what is given ; 
 the only thing that is left out is the rifle, and 
 we know that the cost of that is about 4/. or not 
 quite so much, and it lasts about 12 years, 1 believe. 
 I do not thiuk that our rifles will be efiective so long, 
 for we shoot so much more at the target than they do 
 in the service, that the grooves of the rifle would get 
 worn out sooner. 
 
 2858. ( Viscount Hardinge.) How long do you cal- 
 culate that your pouch belts will last ? — I think they 
 will last for from 6 to 8 years, depending, of course, 
 entirely upou the care of the individual ; some will 
 last longer than others. 
 
 2859. What do you put them at with the waist 
 helt ? — 15s. a set, that is what we paid for them ; 
 they are made of common leather and the pouches 
 are made to hold 60 rounds. 
 
 2860. ( Chairmcni.) Three shillings a year would 
 about pay for them ? — Yes. 
 
 2861. (Sir A. Campbell.) In what form would 
 you suggest that this assistance should be given ; in 
 money, or in kind ? — For the purposes of carrying on 
 the affairs of the corps, I think it would be much 
 better if it were given in materials, because then 
 there would be some security that the money was 
 applied to the purposes for which it was voted. 
 
 2862. ( Viscoimt Hardinge.) Would you have the 
 cloth issued in a piece ? — 1 would have the clothing 
 issued. 
 
 2863. (Major Harcourt.) What security would 
 you have iu that case that the men would not leave 
 the corps in a fortnight, and take their clothes with 
 them ? — The same security that we have now ; we 
 should go after them, and take them before the 
 magistrates, if they took that which did not belong 
 to them. 
 
 2864. The clothes would remain the property of the 
 Government, I presume ? — Yes, the same as the 
 rifles. 
 
 2865. Do you think that you would have any 
 difficulty in getting the men to wear second-hand 
 clothing? — No; they are frequently so clothed, 
 speaking now of the artizan corps. 
 
 2866. You are speaking of the persons likely to 
 require a uniform to be given to them ? — Yes. 
 
 2867. (Viscount Hardinge.) If Government sup- 
 plied the volunteers with clothing and accoutrements, 
 do you think that would generally satisfy the wants 
 of the force ? — If the Government gave us clothing 
 and accoutrements, and made some arrangement to 
 provide for the expenses of getting the regiment to- 
 gether at battalion drills, I think it would. There 
 is great difference of opinion as to the colour, but the 
 feeling in our neighbourhood is so strongly in favour 
 of scarlet that if the Goverument were to put us 
 into that colour, and to provide the things I have 
 enumerated, I think the difficulty would be to keep 
 men out of the volunteers and not to get them to 
 come in. 
 
 2868. (Sir A. Campbell.) If .no such assistance is 
 given, do you anticipate that there will be a falling 
 oft' in your numbers 'i — Yes, I am sure of it ; I 
 should think that some battaUons would become en- 
 tirely extinct in a short time. 
 
 2869. But I am referring particularly to the bat- 
 talion under your own command ? — 1 think that 
 
 R 2 
 
 Licut.-Col. 
 E.'M. Perkins. 
 
 20 June 1862.
 
 124 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.-Coh 
 jE. M. Perkins. 
 
 .20 June 1862. 
 
 would depend very much upon some few individuals, 
 of whom I am one myself. 
 
 2870. You mean that it would depend how long 
 their liberality wo\ild last ?— Yes, and their general 
 enthusiastic support. 
 
 2871. Do you think it is desirable that some 
 prompt decision should be come to by the Govern- 
 ment on this question ?— I think that if a prompt 
 decision were come to it would do a great deal of 
 good. I thiuk that if the men knew what they had 
 to rely upon next year it would be of very great 
 service indeed to the force, and I believe that if 
 eight battalion drills were provided foi" in this way, 
 or^if a fixed number were provided for in this way, 
 there would be a great many others provided for in 
 some other way. I have a return from a little 
 rural corps about five miles west from our head 
 quarters, and I see that on two occasions they have 
 had what they call a soiree in our part of the world, 
 and perhaps the Commission would hardly believe 
 that two soirees realized a profit to them of 137/. 18s., 
 and a third 75/. 
 
 2872. {Sir A. Campbell.) But do you think you 
 could reckon upon that sort of inducement being 
 successful again ? — No, it is only very exceptional 
 where you can get that sort of thing done. 
 
 2873. {Lord Eli'hn.) Is it desirable, in your opinion, 
 that the force should be dependent upon such a source 
 as that ? — Unquestionably not. 
 
 2874. {Lord Ovcrstone.) Your corps consists of 
 770 effective men ? — Yes. 
 
 2875. Am I right in understanding that the term 
 "effective" is a technical term, meaning a man who 
 has attended a certain number of drills, and that it 
 does not necessarily follow that an effective is an 
 efficient soldier ?— It does not necessarily follow ; it 
 means a man who has attended a certain number of 
 drills ; I believe it also means that it exempts him 
 from the militia ballot. 
 
 2876. The word "effective" is merely a short term 
 implying attendance at a certain number of drills, 
 without any reference to the effect of those drills on 
 the particular individual ? — Quite so ; but the service 
 has taken a deep hold of the people, and it has now 
 become very popular, so that I have no doubt of 
 every effective being efficient. In the first instance 
 we had great difficulties to contend with, for the 
 female part of the population was very much against 
 the movement ; they thought that all the men were 
 going to be drafted oft" to India or to China ; but I 
 think that that feeling is entirely removed now, and 
 I have no hesitation in saying that if some liberal 
 assistance, the exact nature of which it is difficult to 
 specify, is afforded, and a uniform colour adopted (and 
 I attribute a great deal of the success to having a 
 uniform colour), great satisfaction will be felt. 
 
 2877. Supposing that the coast of Durham was 
 seriously menaced by a foreign invading force, and 
 an appeal was made to the volunteers of the country, 
 do you feel confident that you could bring up your 
 770, efficient as well as effective for the defence of 
 the coast ? — Yes, I think I could. 
 
 2878. Is it your opinion that you would be able to 
 bring up the whole, or what proportion of those 770 
 effectives, in a really efficient state to support the 
 regular force in resisting invasion ? — I should say 
 everyone who was not bedridden. 
 
 2879. You are of opinion, speaking generally, that 
 those 770 men might be relied upon as capable of 
 being brought up to the shores of Durham for their 
 defence ? — Yes, I am quite satisfied upon that point. 
 
 2880. Do you think that they would be in an 
 efficient state for military jjurposes ? — It might be 
 presumption in me to offer au opinion upon that 
 point, but I think that they have made great pro- 
 gress, and only want the opportunity of meeting 
 together more often than we can do from want of 
 funds, and if they did that I should have no hesita- 
 tion in saying that they would act under a proper 
 commander very efficiently indeed. 
 
 2881. May I take the purport of your evidence to 
 be this, tlnit as they exist at this moment you would 
 speak with some hesitation as to their efficiency if 
 they were suddenly called out for the defence of the 
 coast ; liut, if certain further measures which yon 
 recommend were adojjted, after a short time you feel 
 confident that they would be efficient when called 
 out? — Quite so. With regard to some batl.ilions I 
 would ■venture to allude to a report which I expect 
 Col. ISIacMurdo will have i-eeeived from the north 
 from Col. llarman as to our operations on a recent 
 occasion ; and I think that if they can do what they 
 did then they will very soon be able to do something 
 better. 
 
 2882. You clearly understand that the object and 
 duty of this Commission is to ascertain from the com- 
 manding officers of the different corps their opinions 
 as to the present state and efficiency of those different 
 corps, and the extent to which reliance can be placed 
 on that efficiency in case the emergency with respect 
 to which they have been oi'ganized should suddenly 
 occur ? — Yes, I think that many of the battalions 
 would bo able in a very short time to take their 
 places with the regular troops and militia ; but with 
 regard to others I should not like to speak with the 
 same confidence ; I do not think that they are quite 
 so efficient as they might be if they had better oppor- 
 tunities of assembling together. 
 
 2883. Do you thiuk that military discipline and 
 training are requisite to give them that efficiency 
 which they ought to possess to justify full reliance 
 ui)on them in a case of emergency ? — Quite so. 
 
 2884. What measures do you think ought to be 
 resorted to, to accomplish that result ? — Merely pro- 
 viding their necessary equipment, and giving them an 
 op])ortunity of assemliling together for the purposes 
 of drill. 
 
 2885. The necessary equipment has not hitherto 
 failed them, nor has it caused an absence from the 
 necessary drills ? — No ; but it is now wearing out. 
 
 2886. You think that a continuance in training, 
 which is requisite to give them efficiency, will not be 
 kept up unless new clothing is found for them, which 
 cannot be found by the men themselves ? — I should 
 say so. 
 
 2887. But you think that if that new clothing is 
 found for them from other sources, and the present 
 training continues for some further length of time, 
 the desired result will be accomplished ? — Yes ; I am 
 quite sure of it. 
 
 2888. Within what period do you think it could be 
 accomplished ? — From what I know of the volunteers 
 I should think, speaking of the. bulk of the corps, 
 that another 12 months' or 18 months' training would 
 make them all very efficient ; some of them are very 
 much better than others. 
 
 2889. Supposing the danger to which I have 
 alluded was showing itself on the shores of Durham, 
 and developing itself on the southern coasts of Eng- 
 land, do you think that your corps could be carried to 
 the south of England in an efficient state for the pur- 
 pose of aiding in the military defence of the country ? 
 — I am sure of it ; but we have no field equipment, 
 no knapsacks, or tents, or cooking apparatus. 
 
 2890. In your present state you could not be re- 
 lied upon as an efficient force for operations at a dis- 
 tance from 3'our present quarters}? — Not unless we 
 had those necessaries which I ^have specified pro- 
 vided. 
 
 2891. {Col. MacMurdo.) If the troops took the 
 field, are you not aware that they would be furuished 
 with a camp equipment ? — No, I am not ; but, if so, 
 then they would not know what to do with it, a good 
 many of them. 
 
 2892. {Lord Overstone.) May I understand the 
 purport of your evidence generally to be this : that 
 in the present state of the force, its efficiency for 
 national defence is limited and imperfect ; that with 
 certain aid from the Government, it might be rendered 
 much more efficient ; but that for distant operations 
 still further training, and the habit of using the things
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 125 
 
 which must be provided for the movenient. of troops 
 at a distance, would be still requisite ? — Yes. 
 
 2893. In the present state of the force, it would 
 not bo efficient for operations in a distant part of the 
 country ? — No ; certainly not, unless those neces- 
 saries were provided for them in anticipation of such 
 operations. 
 
 2894. I understood you to say that not only the 
 requisites must be provided, but that the men must 
 be accustomed to the proper use of them ?— -Yes ; it 
 you put raw troops into camp life, they would, ot 
 course, be wanting in experience. 
 
 2895. (Lord JC/c/to.) That remark would apply 
 equally to the militia, or to any reciiment of the line, 
 which had never been in camp ? — Yes ; but not so 
 much, Ijecause from their habits, and beinf; subjected 
 to barrack discipline, they are taught many things 
 which the volunteers are unaccustomed to. 
 
 289(j. If i;he articles to which you have referred ; 
 viz., tents, cooking apparatus, great coats, and knap- 
 sacks, were provided for them, you think there would 
 be no difficulty ? — Yes. 
 
 2897. Those are the portions of the equipment for 
 the Held to which you refer, and which they have not 
 now ? — Yes ; and without which they would not bo 
 efficient. 
 
 2898. You have heard from Col. MacMurdo, that 
 these things would be supplied when they were called 
 upon to do duty in the field ? — Yes. 
 
 2899. So that with regard to the field equipment, 
 although the volunteer corps have it not now, they 
 would have it furnished to them when called out into 
 the field ?— Yes. 
 
 2900. Judging from your experience of the volun- 
 teer corps, to make them thoroughly cflicient as sepa- 
 rate companies in drill, Avhat time should you think 
 it necessary to have them together ? — That depends 
 a good deal upon who takes them in hand. 
 
 2901. I will assume that they were properly taken 
 in hand ? — Then 1 do not think there is a corps in 
 our part of the country that within, say a fortnight, 
 could not be very well up indeed in its work. 
 
 2902. Is it probable that any army could be landed 
 on the shores of this country, without the Government 
 of the country receiving at least a fortnight's warn- 
 ing ? — I should think it was utterly impossible. 
 
 2903. Your corps is chiefly composed of artizaus, 
 is it not ? — Y'es. 
 
 290-i. What eft'ect has the volunteering had upon 
 the artizaus, physically and socially ; has it improved 
 their appearance ? — It has produced a marked im- 
 provement in every way, both in their health, in 
 their habits, and in their demeanour to others. 
 
 2905. Do you hear their employers speak favourably 
 of the movement, as to its effect upon the men ? — I 
 have never heard hardly a complaint ; and on a recent 
 occasiou we had an assembly for rifle shooting in the 
 county of Durham, at which all the corps attended ; 
 and the police superintendent told me that it was the 
 only meeting of that size that he had ever known in 
 the county of Durham, at which the police had not 
 a complaint to make ; not a single police case arose 
 during three days' contest, and a large review, which 
 afterwards took place in Lambton park. 
 
 2906. I think you stated that you were of opinion 
 that the volunteers who give their time and services 
 should not be called upon to contribute in other ways? 
 — I think so. 
 
 2907. Do you think that that feeling exists among 
 the volunteers themselves ? — I am quite sure of it. I 
 think, moreover, that some little favour might be 
 shown ; for instance, I think that field officers ought 
 to be exempted from service on juries, and such little 
 calls upon their time as that. If a man was called 
 
 upon to serve on a special jury at the time when he had 
 to parade his regiment it woidd be very inconvenient. 
 
 2908. {Chuirman.) Would you confine that privi- 
 lege to the iield ofiiccrs V — I think that that would be 
 sufficient. 
 
 2909. {Lord Elcho.) Do you think that if that 
 principle was extended to exempting the men from 
 civil duties in consideration of military service vo- 
 luntarily rendered to the state, it would be an induce- 
 ment to men to enter the force and remain in it ? — 
 Not nuiterially. 
 
 2910. Are the men of whom your corps is composed 
 not frcquentlj' called u])on to act as jurymen or special 
 constables ? — No, it is principally the officers. 
 
 2911. {Sir A. Campbrll.) Do you find that the 
 nature of the employment of the artizaus in your 
 corps makes it diflicult for them to make arrangements 
 to receive rifle instruction ? — Yes, I think that the 
 course of instruction as laid down in the regulations 
 is almost inapplicable to rural corps, or to any other 
 volunteers ; I tliink that they cannot go through the 
 course. 
 
 2912. Do you think that they can be properly in- 
 structed in the use of the rifle without going through 
 the course ? — I think they can bo made to hit a tar- 
 get every time at from 400 to 600 yards ; I saw a 
 man the other day shoot off a tie against a Henry 
 rifle with an ordinary Enfield, and it took three shots 
 afterwards to decide it ; they divided because the 
 owner of the Henry had not sufficient confidence to 
 fire it oft". 
 
 2913. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) Was that a man who 
 had not had actual practice ? — No ; he had had such 
 practice as we could give him at his own range. 
 
 2914. {I^ord Elcho.) But he had not gone through 
 all the position drills as laid down in the illustrations? 
 —No. 
 
 2915. {Major-Gen. El/re.) Had that man had prac- 
 tice at the target ? — Yes, principally. 
 
 2916. {Lord Elcho.) Do the officers of your corps 
 ]iay a higher annual subscription than the men ? — • 
 Y'es, the officers pay every deficiency almost, whatever 
 it may be. 
 
 2917. We have been informed that there is a corps 
 in which the captain pays 25/., the lieutenant 15/., 
 the ensign 10/., and the corporals 3/. annually, and 
 that the incidental expenses of the corps are in a 
 great measure covered by the subscriptions on the 
 part of the officers ; do you think it desirable that 
 such a system should be general, and that the officers 
 should be called upon to contribute such large sums 
 annually ? — I think not ; for you would then get for 
 a commander a man with the most money in his 
 pocket and not the most sense in his head. 
 
 2918. Do you think that there would not be a 
 sufficient demand for officers' commissions to enable 
 you to select good men if such a tax were imposed ? 
 — I think not ; not in the rural districts. 
 
 2919. {Major Harconrt.) You have stated that you 
 think the men ought to be supplied with uniforms 
 and accoutrements ; have the expenses of storing 
 those uniforms and accoutrements entered into your 
 calculation ? — Yes. 
 
 2920. And the hire of a room to keep those stores 
 in, and a quartermastei'-serjeant to look after them ? 
 — That would be the armourer's duty ; the unifonns 
 would remain in the possession of the men as long as 
 they remained in the corps. 
 
 2921. Do you think that the same man could also 
 perform that duty ? — Yes ; ho would not have above 
 ten or a dozen suits in a company, if so many, to look 
 after ; I think not beyond that if the national colour 
 were adopted. 
 
 Linil.-Cnl. 
 E. M. Pcrkint. 
 
 20 June 1862. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned to Tuesday next at half-past 12 o clock. 
 
 R 3
 
 126 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Tuesday, 24th June 1862. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Capt. 
 G. Darby. 
 
 24 June 1862. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLET. 
 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Viscount Hardingb. 
 Lord Elcho. 
 Lord Overstone. 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel MacMdrdo. 
 Major Harcourt. 
 
 CAirPBELL. 
 
 A. Wetheeall. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chair. 
 Captain George Darby examined. 
 
 2922. (Chairman.) You command the 3rd Sussex 
 Artillery Volunteer Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 2923. Consisting of two batteries ? — Yes. 
 
 2924. And of 160 men ?— No ; I have about 108 
 on the roll : I think there will be about 125 actually 
 on the roll the first time that I go down. 
 
 2925. You have taken a great interest in organizing 
 a mode of conveying artillery to the coast ? — -Yes. 
 When first I formed the corps I had that in contem- 
 plation, for I thought that the time would come when 
 you would both have to move guns and other stores, 
 and I happened to have some communication with His 
 Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, and I told 
 him that I had had the idea of this scheme from the 
 formation of the corps, and I asked H.R.H. whether 
 he thought there would be any use in it, and he said 
 that if I could succeed in doing it he thought it 
 would be a most desirable thing. In consequence 
 of that I sent down with the view of carrying out 
 the scheme, and in two days I got above 300 draught 
 beasts volunteered, and I have now I think between 
 600 and 700. This is the original map (handing in 
 the same) which was signed by those who volunteered 
 to provide the draught beasts, and I have never had 
 any difficulty whatever since that time ; they drew 
 the heading of it themselves ; it was done in a hurry 
 as if in contemplation of a possible invasion. I have 
 had occasion to move 18-pounders to Brighton, and 
 I have never had the least difficulty in getting the 
 number of draught beasts I wanted. 
 
 2926. Do these persons who undertake to supply 
 the horses, also undertake to move the guns without 
 any charge ? — -When I was going to the Brighton 
 review I asked leave to take four 18-pounders, as I 
 did not like going without guns ; and it being thought 
 desirable to test the reality of the movement, leave 
 was given to me to take the guns ; I then sent round 
 to know what horses I could have, and they said 100 ; 
 I said I wanted only 30, and they supplied them, and 
 two men to each team of horses ; they supplied the 
 horses, and the whole of the forage for nothing, and, 
 I believe, gave something to the men, who behaved 
 well, when they came back. 
 
 2927. Did they convey the guns belonging to your 
 battery only ? — I changed the position of some other 
 guns, but only conveyed my own guns from Blatch- 
 ington to Brighton, over Newhaven Bridge, and up 
 by Red Hill near Oviug-Dean, which I have had 
 measured, and is an incline of 1 in 6 ; we marched 
 past with the guns, and back to Blatchington, a dis- 
 tance altogether of about 30 miles, and we parked 
 the guns that night, getting back at 25 minutes past 
 eleven ; we placed sentries over them, and the next 
 morning six of the horses took the four guns up the 
 hill to the shed, wheeled them, and reversed them ; 
 the same team had been over to Brighton the day 
 before. 
 
 2928. Do the persons to whom you have referred 
 belong to your corps ? — Some of them, and I believe 
 that they will all be honorary members of it ; one of 
 the rules of the corps is that, with the sanction of the 
 commanding officer, those furnishing draught beasts 
 are entitled to become honorary members of it. 
 
 2929. You would be able to command those horses 
 in case of invasion and at other times, I suppose, if it 
 
 were necessary ? — Yes ; the plan was carried out very 
 suddenly, because I wanted to see the shortest time in 
 wliich I could get a number of draught beasts supplied ; 
 I (lid not draw up this paper myself, but this is the 
 form of it : " We, the undersigned, Sussex farmers re- 
 " siding within a few miles of the South Coast, viz., 
 " between Beachy Head and Newhaven, do hereby 
 '• pledge ourselves in case of an invasion by a foreign 
 " enemy to supply for the use of Her Majesty Queen 
 '• Victoria, the following number of horses and oxen 
 " whenever we may be called upon so to do. Witness 
 " our hand.s, 30th day of July 1860." The object 
 was, first to obtain a register of the number of ani- 
 mals to be obtained, and next to make use of them ; 
 and upon any occasion when I have asked for them 
 they have supplied them most readily ; guns of posi- 
 tion have in fact been sent down to the batteries, so 
 that the horses became actually serviceable ; and 
 four of those guns of position I took to Brighton with 
 me. Tlierii were originally only breeching rings to the 
 shafts, and I could not, except by some shift, harness 
 my horses to those shafts, and we then contrived a 
 plan which would do either for artillery or agricul- 
 tural harness, and alter some contrivance I had a set 
 made at Eastbourne. I forwarded them to the Horse 
 Guards, and they were kind enough to send Colonel 
 Cuppage, R.A., who came down and saw them tried 
 with both sorts of harness, and reported, I lielieve, that 
 they answered perfectly well. In consequence of that 
 the fittings of the shafts have been altered all along 
 the coast, and we can now in a moment change from 
 the artillery to the agricultural harness. 
 
 2930. That contrivance has made the whole of the 
 artillery along the coast perfectly efficient ?. — Yes ; 
 but another thing was required to be done ; for, although 
 it answered for the counties of Sussex and Kent, it 
 was suggested that it would not do for other counties, 
 and upon that I sent for drawings and information 
 from all the Eastern and Southern counties, and got 
 returns, from which it appeared that along all the 
 Eastern and Southern counties the harness is suitable 
 for the new fittings. 
 
 2931. All the appointments and equipments neces- 
 sary for the artillery are furnished, I believe, by the 
 Government ? — Such as the ammunition, that is fur- 
 nished, and the carbines are furnished. 
 
 2932. (Col. MacMurdo.) And the small stores ? — 
 Yes, all those ; everything is furnished for the guns. 
 I was not aware that the carriage of the small .stores 
 was furnished, or of the drill-guns ; at least, I paid 
 for it. 
 
 2933. (Chairman.) Have you any company fund 
 formed of subscriptions amongst yourselves ? — None 
 among non-commissioned officers or gunner.s, and only 
 about lOZ. or 12^. by persons who are not members of 
 the corps. 
 
 2934. Have your men found their own clothing ? — 
 I have diffin-ent ways of finding it ; some persons found 
 substitutes, and they found the money foi' the uniform 
 of their substitutes, but they submit the men to me in 
 the first instance for approval. 
 
 2935. When that clothing requires renewal, do you 
 think they will renew it ? — I hope at least that some 
 of them will. I should think I may have, out of the
 
 TO IN'QUIRE into the condition of the volunteer forge in great BRITAIN. 
 
 127 
 
 funds of the corps, to clothe about 30 men wholly, aud 
 19 in part. 
 
 2936. {Major Harvourt.) Do you send in quarterly 
 practice returns to the officer commanding the Koyal 
 Artillery in your district ? — Yes. 
 
 2937. Do you send returns of stores to the same 
 officer ? — Yes. 
 
 2938. Is your practice carried on under his super- 
 intendence ? — Yes. 
 
 2939. Are you inspected by him or by some one 
 whom he appoints? — I belii've the inspector is ap- 
 pointed on his recommendation ; I have just been 
 inspected by Colonel Aylnier, R.A. 
 
 2940. So that your organization is rather of a more 
 military character than that of the rifle volunteers? — 
 ■I imagine so. 
 
 2941. Do you think that the artillery volunteers 
 dislike this organization ? — No ; I think they like it. 
 
 2942. Do you think that they would dislike being 
 placed even more under the superintendence of the 
 officers of the Royal Ai'tillery than they are at pre- 
 sent ? — Not the least. I believe they would like it ; 
 and so they ought, because there is no possible assis- 
 tance that we do not receive from the officer com- 
 manding the district, and from all in the service, 
 even down to the gunners. They seem to take a 
 great interest in us ; but, of course, I can only answer 
 for my own corps. I am quite sure I may speak 
 for them as well as for myself. 
 
 2943. Speaking for your own corps, do you think 
 that they would not dislike being placed more under 
 the district officers of Royal Artilleiy than they are 
 at present ? — I do not think that they would in any 
 way dislike it. 
 
 2944. Are there any rifle volunteers in your dis- 
 trict ? — Yes, at Eastbourne. 
 
 294.5. Does the recruiting for the one arm inter- 
 fere with the recruiting for the other ? — Not materially. 
 Some of those who joined the rifles would probably 
 have joined the artillery had no rifle corps been 
 formed. I think the formation of that corps may have 
 very much diminished the funds which might have 
 been raised for the artillery. 
 
 2946. Which arm do you consider it is of most 
 importance to encourage on the sea coast? — Certainly, 
 when I formed this artillery corps, all the authorities 
 gave me to understand that the artillery was of the 
 most consequence. 
 
 2947. Have you any regular course of drill ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2948. Is every man obliged to go through a course 
 of marching drill l>efore he is allowed to go to gun 
 drill ? — Yes, every man is obliged to go through 
 company drill. I should not think him steady enough 
 to go to the guns, unless he had gone through com- 
 pany drill. 
 
 2949. Is every man obliged to go through gun 
 drill before he is allowed to go to carbine drill ? — 
 Yes, in my case they had all gone through the gun 
 drill before I had carbines. I kept out the carbines 
 as long as I could. 
 
 2950. Do you attach any importance to the use of 
 the carbines ? — I cannot bear them ; I think they are 
 of no use. 
 
 2951. Do you consider file firing, or firing in 
 square safe with the artillery carbines ? — Do you 
 mean the rear rank firing ? 
 
 2952. The third and fourth ranks firing ?— No ; I 
 never heard an artilleryman say that it was so ; in 
 file firing the front rank kneels down. 
 
 2953. {Lord Elcho.) Is that ever done ? — I have 
 asked many artillerymen, aud all the men wiio have 
 seen service that I have asked in the artillery have 
 said that they do not consider it a safe thing in square 
 to fire from the third and fourth ranks with carbines, 
 as they are so short. 
 
 2954. {Major Harcourt.) Then of what use are 
 they to the volunteer artillerymen ? — If they go on 
 garrison duty at any time ; I strapped mine to the 
 limbers when I went to Brighton, but I never un- 
 
 them if I go with 
 
 strapped them again, they do for mounting guard ; the 
 carbine is a very neat little weapon witlioutthe sword 
 bayonet, but with it, it is a most top-heavy thing. 
 
 2955. Have you been at any expense in storing 
 the carbines, or paying an armourer ? — Yes, and that 
 is one of the tilings tliat I flunk we ought to be re- 
 lieved from ; my carbines have only just arrived, or 
 not very long ago. I have a pajjcr drawn up which 
 every man, before he takes his (■arl)ine, signs ; and 
 that paper is to the effe'ct that he is to produce the 
 carbine so often for inspection, and be answerable 
 for any damage done to it, and that he is not to fire it 
 without leave from the comnumding officer ; subject to 
 those regulations, they may take the carbines, the rest 
 are kept in store. We pay 8/. \0s. a year for looking 
 after those belonging to the second battery, which are, 
 I think, at present in a room in one of the batteries. 
 
 2956. Has your corps ever had any battalion drill ? 
 — Not a great deal, but they have had sufficient 
 company drill. 
 
 2957. Do you attach much importance to battalion 
 drill for artillerymen ? — I think that anything which 
 makes a man steady is a great thing, in order to do 
 their work neatly at the guns ; if they cannot do their 
 company drill neatly, they cannot do it at the guns ; 
 and after all battalion drill is only company drill 
 extended. 
 
 2958. Do you think that divisional field days are of 
 any advantage to artillery volunteers ? — That depends 
 upon how far they go, and for what purpose they go. 
 I do not think too many meetings are desirable ; 
 and I do not want to go at all to 
 carbines ; I think it is a great nuisance. 
 
 2959. ( Col. MacMurdo.) Are you aware that the 
 carbines were furnished to the artillery volunteers at 
 their own request ? — Certainly ; I am quite aware of 
 that, and not only that, but I kept out of them as long 
 as I could ; but we went to Brighton, and the men 
 saw the artillery there with carbines and the rifles 
 with their rifles at Eastbourne, and then I found that 
 there was a great desire to have them, and the colonel 
 of my corps told the men that he wishcnl them to have 
 them, and then I yielded, but not till then. I should 
 not now, however, attempt to get rid of them. 
 
 2960. Is it not the fact that some of the corps were 
 about to resign, and would have resigned if the car- 
 bines had not been issued to them ? — My corps did not. 
 
 2961. {Lord Elcho.) Do the men shoot much with 
 the carbines at a mark ? — No, I have, as yet, declined 
 to have any blank cartridges. 
 
 2962. But the other artillery corps ? — I really do 
 not know. 
 
 2963. {Eurlof Ducie.') Do you not find that if you 
 have no ammunition, some dissatisfaction is expressed 
 by the men as they cannot join in the matches? — 
 That time may come; but I have always tried to turn 
 my corps against it. I have said it is of no use your 
 doing what everybody can do; you must do something 
 more. There are many things which relieve the 
 artilleryman from monotony in his work, for it is 
 that which anno3's volunteers. It may be necessary 
 for the rifles either to attend field days or go to this 
 place or to that for a change ; but when you have 
 your repository work going on, aud the men are 
 learning the use of the gyn and sheers, and to mount 
 and dismount guns, there is a very great change in 
 their work, and it prevents the monotony which is felt 
 from constant company and battalion drill. 
 
 2964. You are not of opinion that rifle matches 
 and county meetings are a great means of holding 
 the volunteer system together ? — I really cannot sjjcak 
 from myself with respect to tlie course that the rifle 
 volunteers take ; I know very little about theni, but 
 I think I could hold the volunteers togetlier without 
 them in the .artillery; but I havd' no doubt that if 
 prizes are given away for artillery practice the volun- 
 teers would be verj' glad to compete for them. 
 
 2965. ( Vistoinit Hardinge.) Do you know of any 
 instance in which prizes have been offered for the best 
 artillery practice ? — Yes. 
 
 R 4 
 
 Capt. 
 G. Darbg. 
 
 •24 .lune 186J.
 
 128 
 
 inNTTTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TH COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Capt. 
 G. Darby. 
 
 24 June 1862. 
 
 2966. Wliere corps have met together and competecl 
 for the prizes ?— Yes, there are prizes given in 
 Sussex. 
 
 2967. I mean prizes for artillery practice ? — Yes. 
 The way it was done in .Sussex was this, — so much 
 money was given to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd corps of 
 artillery, but the competition was between each of 
 those corps among themselves ; the corps were not 
 brought together for the purpose of competing with 
 one anothei', but the one, two, or three batteries of 
 each corps competed among themselves for the par- 
 ticular sum that was allotted to that corps ; I think 
 20/. to the Brighton corps, \0l. to mine, and 5/. to the 
 Fairlight corps. 
 
 2968. You might carry that still further, might you 
 not, so as to give the artillery volunteers the same in- 
 terest in competing for those prizes as they do at 
 county meetings in competing for rifle prizes ? — 
 There is more difficulty in it ; I do not like anything 
 that unnecessarily takes men often away from their 
 occupations ; I think that the best rule is never to get 
 your men together except for duty; some might like it 
 well enough, but men in business and fathers and the 
 masters do not like it, and the less you can take them 
 away from home, the more permanent the force will 
 be in the end, I am certain. 
 
 2969. {Major Harcourt.) With what kind of guns 
 are you supplied for drill and practice ? — I drill with 
 32-pounders, 68-pounders, 24-pounders, and 18-poun- 
 ders. 
 
 2970. Have you been put to any expense in building 
 drill gun sheds ? — No. We hire one or two. 
 
 2971. How many drills do you consider that a gun- 
 ner should attend to, to entitle him to be considered an 
 effective after he has passed out of the list of recruits ? 
 — He should attend to his drill once a month. 
 
 2972. Do you think that 12 drills a year would be 
 sufficient ? — Yes, provided he knew his work pre- 
 viously. 
 
 2973. Do you find that the attendance of your men 
 is better .at gun practice than at gun drill ? — Yes, I 
 think it is. 
 
 2974. ( Viscount Hcirdinge.) Do you mean 12 days 
 gun drill only ? — Yes, but there is a great deal that 
 has to be learned besides. 
 
 2975. What is the minimum number of days' drill 
 which you think is necessary for a volunteer artillery- 
 man to go through to render him effective. Take the 
 second year. You are aware that in the rifle volun- 
 teers a man is considered effective who has gone 
 through 24 days' drill ? — Yes. 
 
 2976. I presume that that would also apply to 
 artillery volunteers ? — That is rather a difficult ques- 
 tion to answer, for it depends upon what battery you 
 are in, and the facilities for the different kinds of 
 drill ; we have a great advantage in that. I can 
 always teach the men a certain amount of repository 
 drill — knotting, shifting the guns, gyn drill, &e., and 
 whenever you have that change of work there is 
 much less difficulty in getting the men down to drill. 
 
 2977. Do you return every man as effective who 
 has gone through 24 days' drill ? — Yes ; I think it 
 is 24. 
 
 2978. Do you think 24 days are sufficient, or would 
 you recommend an extension of that time ? — I do not 
 think that I should recommend an extension of the 
 number of days to make a man effective ; you always 
 will have some men more efllcient than others. In 
 the artillery some of them cannot learn the reposi- 
 tory work so (juickly as others, and there are others 
 who are very clever at it, but you cannot expect to 
 have them all alike. 
 
 2979. {Major Harcourt.) Do all your men go 
 through a course of tlieoretical instruction in boring 
 and fixing fuses, trajectory, and the science of artillery 
 generally ? — Yes. 
 
 2980. Is the possession of such knowledge in any 
 degree necessary to a man before he is competent to 
 be made a non-commissioned officer ? — Yes. 
 
 2981. How are youi' non-commissioned offlcers 
 selected ? — I select them. 
 
 2982. How are your officers selected ? — I recom- 
 mend them. 
 
 2983. Have any of your officers been attached for 
 instruction to the Royal Artillery, if not have they 
 all gone through such a course of instruction as you 
 think sufficient ? — I have been attached to the Eoyal 
 Artillery and Scots Fusilier Guards, and my second 
 captain, who is a capital mathematician, is an ex- 
 cellent artillery officer ; he has worked very hard 
 at it ; he has always been in the battery and he lives 
 close to it. 
 
 2984. Are the fuses with which you have been 
 supplied generally good ? — Yes ; I think I have 
 hardly had a bad one. 
 
 2985. Have you ever had .any accidents during 
 practice ? — Never. 
 
 2986. At what distance is the magazine from the 
 battery at which you practise ? — We have no maga- 
 zine of' our own ; there are Government magazines 
 at Eastbourne, at Blatchington, and at Newhaven. 
 
 2987. Are you put to any expense in the convey- 
 ance of ammunition every time you practise ? — No, 
 the magazines are close by. 
 
 2988. {Col. 3IacMurdo.) Are you ever put to any 
 expense for the carriage of stores at all ? — Yes, and 
 I am going to send a bill in ; it is but a small one. 
 
 2989. (Major Harcourt.) Were you not aware 
 that that is an expense which is undertaken by the 
 War Office ? — No, they told me at the railway that 
 I was to pay it. 
 
 2990. Have you the charge of any large amount of 
 Government stores ? — I am responsible for them. 
 
 2991. Are you jaut to any expense in storing them ? 
 —No. 
 
 2992. Do you not think that varying the drills as 
 much as possible secures a much better attendance at 
 drill ? — Yes, the less monotony the better. 
 
 2993. Do you think that such a variety in drill as 
 would be afforded by repository exercises to the 
 extent of moving heavy ordnance without a gyn, 
 would be appreciated by the men •' — They cannot be 
 artillerymen without repository drill. I had to get 
 one of those uastj^ cast-iron carriages out of a truck 
 at Berwick, and I had not a handspike, or a rope, or 
 a skid, and had not a crane that would lift it. I had 
 to get it out with my own men, and we got it out 
 without any trouble. 
 
 2994. {Col. MacMurdo.) That gave you excellent 
 practice ? — Yes, but then we were afraid of mounting 
 that gun without a gyn ; we should j)robably have 
 broken the carriage. Then came in use the volun- 
 teer horses, who brought a gyn, and my second cap- 
 tain put it together. The gun and carriage were 
 taken. away to Berwick and mounted, there my second 
 lieutenant drills all the men ; he has done it all him- 
 self; one of his detachments was at Brighton at the 
 review. 
 
 2995. {Major Harcourt.) Have your men ever 
 given any assistance to the coast brigade of Royal 
 
 Artillery ! 
 
 • I have a general understanding with 
 
 Lieutenant Robinson that whenever he wants men 
 he shall have them, and he tells me that they are 
 perfectly efficient. 
 
 2996. Have you ever given such assistance when 
 the coast brigade of Royal Artillery would have been 
 otherwise too weak-handed to have done the work 
 themselves ? — Yes ; they fill up their numbers with 
 our men. 
 
 2997. Do you think that the arrangement you have 
 spoken of, by which you can obtain a supply of volun- 
 teer cattle for moving guns on travelling carriages, 
 might be generally extended ? — Certainly. I have 
 i-eceived a letter from the colonel of the 1st brigade of 
 Yorkshire artillery, asking me to give him the whole 
 account of it, and I think he had some idea of attempt- 
 insi to carry out the same scheme. I see no difficulty 
 in" it. Mr. Turner, a Serjeant in my corps, who is a 
 very large agriculturalist, assisted me in carrying out
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOI.UNTEEU FORCE IN CiREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 129 
 
 my plan, uud whenever I want horses I send fo liim 
 to make arrangements. When I went to Itrighton, 
 I never allowed a man to fall out during the whole 
 time. I had a sort of petty commissariat, everything 
 was supplied, and the men had tickets for beer, and 
 they could only obtain the quantity to which those 
 tickets entitled them ; all the provisions went in my 
 store cart. 
 
 2998. Do you think that your corps, generally 
 speaking, is in a healthy condition ? — Yes. 
 
 2999. Besides what you have mentioned, do you 
 consider that Government aid is necessary to ensure 
 the permanency and efficiency of your corps ? — I do 
 not say the corps would go down without it, but we 
 are pressed, and I think that if the Government gave 
 lis drill sheds and took care of cur arms, paid ibr 
 getting out targets and the entire cost of one in- 
 structor, it would be desirable. Where there is a bat- 
 tery with non-commissioned officers of the Eoyal 
 Artillery, an arrangement might be made causing 
 little loss to the Government by which our carbines 
 might be taken care of. 
 
 3000. {Col. MacMurdo.) Do you think that the 
 carbines should be taken care of at the expense of the 
 Government, bearing in mind that they were supplied 
 to the volunteers at their own request ? — Major Ilar- 
 court has asked nie what I thought should Ije done 
 with a view to the permanency of the corps. Every- 
 body knows that the volunteers are not rich, and I 
 have gone upon the most economical plan that any 
 person can go upon. I have never allowed any lace 
 to be worn in my corps ; the Serjeant's l)adge of the 
 crown and gun is alone in silver ; and we all wear 
 the same cloth, and the expenses have been in every 
 way as small as possible ; the only excei)tion was 
 that at Eastbourne the ritie volunteers had a band, 
 and my men pressed me very much to let them have 
 a baud to be composed of those who volunteered their 
 services, and after a long time I subscribed, but I soon 
 after disbanded them. Therefore I think that if wo 
 supply all the clothing, those things for which I 
 ask might be conceded, and would be little expense 
 to the Government. 
 
 3001. {Major JJarcoiirf.) Supposing any damage 
 was done to the carbines, I suppose the loss would fall 
 upon the Government and not upon the volunteers ? — 
 I consider it would fall upon me. 
 
 3002. Then supposing that assistance were afforded 
 by the Government, you would prefer it in the form 
 you have described, to receiving aid in money ? — Yes, 
 assistance in money might, I think, lead to accounts 
 and to difficulties, out of which I do not see my way. 
 
 3003. ( Viscount Ilardinge.) Does your corps wear 
 busbies ? — No, I will not have them. 
 
 3004. It is not at all necessary to have them, is it ? 
 — I think it is very unnecessary; in the lirst j)lace, if 
 it is a shabby busby it is a horrible looking thing, and 
 if it is a good one it is very expensive. 
 
 3005. It is also very expensive for the officers to 
 provide it ? — Yes ; I believe that my uniform cost 
 only about 9^. Our uniform is blue with scarlet 
 facings ; the trousers have scarlet braided cord in- 
 stead of a broad stripe of scarlet cloth, as the former 
 wears better and remains cleaner ; the belts are of 
 brown leather. 
 
 3006. {Sir A. Campbell.') You have expressed 
 your opinion in accordance with high military au- 
 thority, that on the coast the artillery volunteer 
 corps are of greater service than the rifle corps ? — 
 Yes, immediately on the coast. 
 
 3007. What view do you take with respect to the 
 corps in the inland districts ? — I should imagine that 
 in the inland districts the rifle would be the best, 
 and for this reason I think it would be aljsurd for 
 volunteer corps to attempt to use light lield guns, 
 and to horse them ; if you have horses for light field 
 guns, you must have them always at your connnand, 
 .and always trained, and they must not be changed, 
 whereas my object is not to train the horses and not 
 to train the carters, for if you attempted to drill them 
 you would puzzle them ; but they arc lirst-ratu fel- 
 
 lows to drive, if you do not ])uzzle them. I fliink 
 that if the volunteers attempted to deal with light- 
 field artillery it would be a very great mistake. 
 
 300y. ( Viscount Hardiuge.) Is it not the fact that 
 if the services of the volunteer artillery were ever 
 required in the case of an invasion, they would be 
 re(iuired, generally speaking, to man the existing 
 batteries and forts on the coast ? — Yes, .and in my 
 view to move guns of position and heavy stores. 
 
 3009. {Lt.-Col. linrttclot.) Have you made up 
 your mind as to what sum of money will find you 
 in gun sheds, and the necessary things that you 
 think the corps recpures to keep up its permanence 
 and efficiency ? — The nearest calculation that I have 
 made brings it to about 5,?. a head. 
 
 3010. (.SV/- A. Campbell.') Is it your o])inion that 
 the enrolment of volunteers as artillerymen should 
 mainly be encouraged on the coast, but that in the 
 inland districts they had better bo enrolled as in- 
 fantry? — That is a military question, and I am not a 
 military man ; but what I mean is this, that if by 
 inland artillery field artillery be meant, I think light 
 field artillery would be a mistake ; and I should bo 
 very sorry to engage in it, for you must have a per- 
 manent staff in that case, and horses perfectly trained; 
 and my object has been not to have that, but to know 
 where I could lay my hands on draught beasts to 
 move heavy weights, and I believe that some artillery 
 officers are of my opinion, that our horses are espe- 
 cially calculated for this purpose, because they are 
 trained constantly to drag heavy weights. I will 
 undertake to pledge myself to move guns or any- 
 thing out of the sheds on the coast anywhere where 
 wheels can travel. 
 
 3011. {Viscount Hardiuge.) Should you say that 
 the artillery service amongst the volunteers was 
 generally popular ? — Decidedly, in our part of the 
 country. 
 
 3012. Do you think that the rifle volunteers could 
 in certain districts be converted into artillerymen, or 
 that they would willingly give up their particular 
 branch of the service ? — That is rather a delicate 
 question. I dare say some of them would, but that 
 would depend upon how they liked their captain ; 
 they might not dislike the artillery, but they might 
 like their captain better. 
 
 3013. Is there a company of rifle volunteers near 
 you ? — Yes, Mr. Frederick Thompson's. 
 
 3014. Are the guns which you took to Brighton in 
 charge of your company ? — No ; the Duke of Cam- 
 bridge let me have them to try the horses with. 
 
 3015. Are you allowed a drill-serjeant to e.ach com- 
 pany by the Government ? — I have only one drill- 
 serjeant detached at head quarters at Ilailsham ; for 
 the rest there is the master gunner at Blatchington, 
 a non-commissioned officer at Newhaven, and there is 
 Serjeant Barnard at Eastbourne; Lieutenant Eobinson 
 has given me the greatest assistance. I have 16 or 17 
 men at Alfriston, and they are drilled entirely there 
 until fit to come into the batteries ; that has been 
 done by one of my lieutenants, company drill and 
 ever^'thing. 
 
 3016. Have your officers instructed the volunteer 
 Serjeants in each company ? — Of course we began 
 with instructors necessarily ; but I may say this, that 
 with the exception of one or Uvo officers who last 
 joined, and who I hope are going to Woolwich or 
 Dover, my officers are very good artillerymen, and 
 they do a great deal themselves. 
 
 3017. In fact your non-commissioned ofHcers are 
 entirely volunteers ? — Yes, I have no non-commis- 
 sioned officer that has been in the artillery, they have 
 learnt their work as volunteers. 
 
 3018. {Lord Overs/one.) IIow many men have you 
 under your connnand ? — I have. a few who have not 
 put their names down, with these I shall have 
 about 125. 
 
 3019. From what classes of the community are 
 they principally drawn ? — 1 have master blacksmiths, 
 carpenters, farmers, and a considerable number of the 
 principal tradesmen in Eastbourjie. 1 have also four 
 
 S 
 
 Capt. 
 G. Darhj. 
 
 24 June 1862.
 
 lao 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 dipt. 
 G. JJarby. 
 
 24 June 1862. 
 
 superior labourers, especially useful if I have any 
 earthworks to throw up, aud tlieu I have skilled 
 artizans, shipwrights, and a uunilier that belong to 
 the Custom House at Newbaveu. 
 
 3020. In case your corps was called out for actual 
 service, have you considered what would be the pro- 
 bable effect upon the surrounding community of 
 drawing from it persons engaged in those various 
 occupations ? — I take it that if they were called upon 
 lor permanent duly, it would lie in case of some 
 danger of an invasion, and I think that everybody then, 
 whatever their occupation was or their business, 
 would do the best they could. 
 
 3021. My question was not directed so much to 
 the duty as to the probable effect upon the public 
 interests, and to what extent the order of society 
 and the ordinary course of transactions would be in- 
 terrupted and thrown into confusion by drawing from 
 it so large a number of men engaged in such very 
 important pursuits ? — With great submission, my idea 
 is that, if such a case should arise for everybody who 
 was, from his knowledge and skill, able to aid in the 
 defence of his country that would be his best occu- 
 pation for the time ; I think he ought to be called 
 out, and I think tliat the greatest security which he 
 could give to all those occupations, would be to take 
 care that there was not any invasion. 
 
 3022. Do you consider that your corps is at the 
 present moment in a state ready for actual service ? 
 — Certainly. 
 
 3023. The meaning of my question is this : in the 
 case of a sudden emergency occurring, do you con- 
 sider that your force is at this moment, with regar 
 to equipment of every kind, in a state ready for 
 actual service ? — Of course the equipment for service; 
 the principal equipment, namely the guns and all the 
 material of war, are found by the Government ; as to 
 everything else, uniforms and so on, they are per- 
 fectly fit for it, and if even they wanted a commis- 
 sariat to take their provisions, although it would 
 certainly be in a very small way, I think I oould 
 provide for that immediately. 
 
 3024. The jnirport of my question is this : in the 
 o-eneral regulations it is stated that the volunteers 
 should be at all times prepared for actual service ? — 
 Yes ; I suppose that the retui'ns have come in. I 
 can only add that the otiier day I practised at East- 
 bourne, when Colonel Aylmer, R.A., made his in- 
 spection, and I think he would say that my men were 
 steady at their guns and their ])raetice very good. 
 
 3025. You think then, speaking in the ordinary 
 sense of the word, that in case of an emergency 
 arising, your corps would be prepared for actual 
 service ? — I certainly do. I have received the 
 greatest kindness from the artillery oihcers ; and if 
 you take the greater proportion of my men, I think it 
 is not too presumptuous in me to say that they could 
 go into the battery, liring out all the stores, fill their 
 shells, bore and fix their fuses, and prepare all the 
 guns for action ; and I believe that their practice 
 would be found, generally speaking, to be such prac- 
 tice as they need not be ashamed of. 
 
 3026. Upon the supposition that the volunteer 
 force was left to support itself in the way in which it 
 is now doing, do you anticipate any serious difiiculty 
 in maintaining the efficiency of your corps ? — As far 
 as my own corps is concerned, I should hope not, 
 because I will not let it go down, if I can help it ; 
 but at tlie same time my only difficulty is in respect 
 of funds, and I certainly have heard from various 
 sources that there is a difficulty in maintaining 
 corps. Of course, one must inquire what are the 
 excrescences that have grown up, and which must 
 be lopped off, in order if possible to reduce the ex- 
 penses ; that will be a matter for inquiry ; but at 
 least you have this to say, that this has been a 
 magnificent movement ; and if even a certain num- 
 ber were to fall off", you would still have a nucleus, 
 and I have no doubt that if the occasion arose, 
 you would have an immense number who would 
 form round that nucleus again, and who would very 
 
 soon become efficient. I do not think that anything 
 will destroy the volunteer force as a force, which is 
 now completely established in this country ; in par- 
 ticular places it might be so. 
 
 3027. ( Viscou7it Hardinge.) How often do you 
 practise with shot and shell ? — That depends entirely 
 upon circumstances ; we practise at targets placed out 
 at sea. 
 
 3028. Take the year round, how often do you prac- 
 tise during the year ? — We always fire oft' the quantity 
 of ammunition allowed. 
 
 3029. You alwaj's do that ? — Yes ; and I do not 
 complain of the quantity allowed. 
 
 3030. Do the Government provide for you floating 
 targets ? — Yes, though we have ourselves got one 
 out ; but I ought to mention, we always have to get 
 our target out, and every time it is taken out it costs 
 7*. 6d. 
 
 P 3031. (Col. dlacMiirdo.) Do you think that that 
 ought to be defrayed by the Government? — Yes; that 
 is one of the things that I should like to see defrayed 
 by the Government. 
 
 3032. ( Viscount Hardinge.^ Who takes charge of 
 your storehouse ? — The ammunition is under the 
 Royal Artillery; all our practice is from the regular 
 batteries. My Eastbourne detachment practise at 
 Eastbourne, all the Blatchington men practise at 
 Blatchington battery, and the Newhaven men, who 
 muster above 30, practise at Newhaven battery. I 
 never have any firing from the drill guns. 
 
 3033. All the small stores that you use are royal 
 artillery stores, I presume ? — I cannot say all. 
 
 3034. {Major Harcotirf.) Are not all the stores in 
 your own charge ? — Yes, all of them. Whenever I 
 have drills, the small stores are actually in my own 
 charge. The stores that are in the chaige of the 
 Royal Artillery are only the stores of ammunition 
 which are in the batteries, the rest are in my own 
 charge. 
 
 3035. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Who takes charge of 
 those stores for which you are responsible — have you 
 a gunner in charge? — No; I have a lieutenant or 
 serjeaut-major, and he is responsible to me for them. 
 I go over them and have them checked every now 
 and then. 
 
 3036. Are the shells with which you practise the 
 same kind of shells that the royal artillery make use 
 of? — Yes; they are the common shell. 
 
 3037. Do you give your adjutant any extra allow- 
 ance ? — AVe have only an adjutant of brigade ; the 
 adjutant is at Brighton, and I verj' seldom see him. 
 We are necessarily separated from Brighton. 
 
 3038. With regard to the standard of height, have 
 you any limit, so that you refuse men under a certain 
 height ? — With our present guns we must have men 
 of a certain height, they have to load the 32-pouuders, 
 and a very short man cannot do it ; my corps average 
 about 5 feet 9. 
 
 3039. When you practise with shot, do the men 
 take it in turns to do the duty of No. 1 ? — They 
 change rounds every time. No. 1 lays his own gun, 
 and the officer looks over it ; it is never allowed to 
 be adjusted ; he must take the chance of his own 
 shot. 
 
 3040. {ChaiTinan.) After that No. 6 takes his 
 turn ? — They change rounds regularly. 
 
 3041. {Major Harcoiirt.) Then the onlj' charge 
 from which you wish to be relieved is the charge for 
 taking the floating target out to sea, and also the 
 charge for the conveyance of ammunition ? — We do 
 not pay for the conveyance of the ammunition, but 
 for the other small stores. My difficulty is this, if 
 you once clothe the men, — I do not iudividuallj' ob- 
 ject to being brought under the Government, — but 
 if once the Government say, we will clothe the volun- 
 teers, and they do that, they will have a right to 
 say, you shall come out so many times a year ; they 
 would have a right to have an inspection with re- 
 gard to the clothing, and to have a general control, 
 and it is possible that such a control might be thought 
 necessary which you could not enforce upon volun-
 
 TO INQUIRK INTO THE CONHITION OF THE VOLUNTREK FORCE m GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 131 
 
 leers, and I question whether tlie line of demareation 
 between the militia and volunteers might not heeonie 
 inconveniently indistinct. I may mention that T have 
 a drill shed at Ilailsham, a very large room, the 
 market room, at present, through the kindness of the 
 hiiidloid, I have the use of it free ; atNewhaven 5/. 
 is paid for a drill shed. In a corps with no income, 
 il would be very convenient to be relieved from the 
 following payments ; and I do not think it would cost 
 the Government a great deal. I should be very glad if 
 (here was any extra expense for the instructor that 
 that shoidd be paid ; that drill sheds, which arc abso- 
 lutely necessary, should be found; that accommodation 
 for storing the carbines should be furnished, and 
 
 tliat they sliould be looked after by a non-commis- 
 sioned otRcer R.A., and tliat the targets should be 
 got out for us. I think these expenses would be 
 very little to the Government, and it woidd bo nn 
 assistance to the volunteers. 
 
 3042. {lAeut.-Col. Bnrttelot.) Do yon know sufli- 
 cient of the other corps in the county, lo be able to 
 say that .i.v. a head would be sufticient for them ? — ■ 
 No, I have said that o.?. would be a great help to 
 us ; but of course that would leave us with a consi- 
 derable amount to pay. In my instance, I think wo 
 had about 180/. subscribed originally, but there is no 
 doubt about this, that whatever <leliciency there may 
 be at last, the otficers must bear the brunt of it. 
 
 Cupl. 
 (,. Darby. 
 
 24 .liino 1862. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Captain Alexander Innes examined. 
 
 Capt. A. Innes. 
 
 3043. {Chairman.) I believe you command the 
 1st Kincardineshire artillery volunteer corps ? — Yes. 
 
 3044. How many batteries are there ? — Two. 
 
 3045. How many men ? — There are 120 men at 
 present enrolled ; 160 being the establishment. 
 
 3046. Have you 100 eflective men ? — Yes. 
 
 3047. Are you attached to any brigade ? — No. 
 
 3048. Do you have regular company and battery 
 drills ? — Yes, regularly. 
 
 3049. Is your corps within reach of any batteries 
 of Royal Artillery? — We are within 14 miles of 
 Aberdeen where there are two batteries with a de- 
 tachment of Royal Artillery. 
 
 3050. Ai'e the guns that you practise with your 
 own, or do you march to practise with the .irtillery 
 guns ? — We have a private battery quite close to my 
 head-quarters. 
 
 3051. How many guns are there in the battery ? — 
 I have three guns at present ; three 32-pounders. 
 We have very recently been at Aberdeen, to which 
 place I took two detachments for the purpose of in- 
 structing the men in the 68-pounder drill in addition 
 to the 32-pounder drill for the purpose of enabling 
 them to compete with heavy guns. 
 
 3052. Have you any drill instructors allowed by 
 the Government ? — I have. 
 
 3053. Are those men permanently attached to your 
 corps or not ? — There is only one and ho is per- 
 manently attached to the corps. 
 
 3054. Is he in the receipt of regular pay ? — Yes. 
 
 3055. Do you pay him anything in addition out of 
 the funds of the corps ? — Not to my knowledge. I 
 know that the members of the corps are in the habit 
 of contributing something for his assistance in super- 
 intending and cleaning their arms, but I insist upon 
 ■every member of my corps being responsible for the 
 state of his own arms. 
 
 3056. Are the men armed with carbines ? — Yes. 
 
 3057. Are they kept in an armoury or do they re- 
 main in the possession of the individual members of 
 the corps ? — I have always insisted upon their being 
 kept in the armoury, and being kept under the super- 
 intendence of the officers of the corps. 
 
 3058. Were your men originally clothed at their 
 own expense ? — A small proportion of them ; a very 
 consideralile proportion of them were clothed by pri- 
 vate contributions. 
 
 3059. Did those contributions come from honorary 
 members, or from gentlemen living in the country ? 
 — One of the batteries consists entirely of seaftiring 
 men, fishermen on my own estate, they were very 
 zealous in erecting the earthworks of the battery, 
 they expressed a desire to enrol, and on condition 
 that they enrolled themselves I gave them a dress or 
 uniform, such as seafaring men generally wear, or as 
 worn by the Royal Artillery when they arc in the 
 Mediterranean, a blouse, the same as the Cinque Ports 
 men, but not of such an expensive description as 
 that of the other battery, which consists of the 
 regulation uniform similar in pattern to that of the 
 Royal Artillery. 
 
 3060. Was the expense of that uniform defrayed by 
 yourself entirely ? — Yes. 
 
 3061. How many drills have you in the course of 
 a year ? — 80 or 90 ; we have had very irregular at- 
 tendance at drill, the drills have been very constant 
 throughout the winter, but in consequence of the ex- 
 pense of hiring a hall! to drill in during the winter, 
 until very recently wo have had very little drill. 
 
 3062. How many drills do you consider necessary 
 to make a man eflPective ? — I consider that a great 
 many more than the statutory number of drills are 
 necessary. I find a difficulty in this way, there is a 
 very general impression, not only in my own corps, 
 but all over the country, that it is only necessary that 
 24 drills should be attended to entitle a man to 
 receive his certificate of efficiency. I have always 
 resisted that myself, for I consider, as the commander 
 of the force, that we are compelled to see that the men 
 are efficient in their duties before granting any such 
 certificate. 
 
 3063. Are your guns in position ? — Yes, all of 
 them. 
 
 3064. ( Viscount Hardinge.') At whose expense 
 was the battery erected ? — It is erected entirely on 
 my own property, overlooking the sea, the platforms 
 were provided by the Government, and a certain pro- 
 portion of the expense of the magazine, all the 
 rest, such as accommodation for gun stores and other 
 accommodation has been provided very much at my 
 own expense. 
 
 3065. Is it an earthwork iirincipallj' or is there any 
 masonry ? — It is a regular battery with merlins, stone 
 revetments, and stone platforms; it is very complete 
 in its ibrmation. 
 
 3066. {Col. MacMurdo.) Were the platforms laid 
 down at the expense of the Government ? — Yes. 
 
 3067. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Was the other ex- 
 pense borne by the corps ? — They contributed the 
 labour ; the expense of the stonework and everything 
 of that sort, being on my own ground, I defr.ayed. 
 
 3068. I presume that you have a magazine ? — Yes, 
 for about, I think, 80 cases. 
 
 3069. Was that also built at your o^vn expense ? — 
 I received a certain allowance, which assisted in the 
 construction of that magazine ; I think it was about 
 10/. from the Government. 
 
 3070. Have you to pay one of j'our gunners to 
 take charge of the stores ? — No, I have the assistance 
 of the Government instructor. 
 
 3071. Is he in charge of the stores ? — Yes ; the 
 guns and all the artillery stores ; that of course has 
 nothing to do with the small arms. 
 
 3072. ( Col. MacMurdo.) He is a corporal of the 
 coast brigade, is he not ? — 'Yes. 
 
 3073. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Have any of your 
 officers been to Aberdeen to receive instructions from 
 the artillery there ? — No one but myself. 1 placed 
 myself at the disposal of the Government when 1 first 
 received my commission, and I was attached, there- 
 fore, for two or three months at Woolwich. 
 
 3074. I suppose you and the drill instructor have 
 
 S 2
 
 132 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 dipt. A. Innes. 
 24 June 1862. 
 
 instructed your ofiBcers ? — I am sorry to say, that I 
 have now only two subalterns. I have always re- 
 sisted the applying for or recommending any officer 
 until he was etheient, consequently I am very short- 
 handed in officers. 
 
 3075. Have you a range in front of this battery 
 where you can practise with safety ? — Yes ; there is 
 a very excellent range out to sea. 
 
 3076. Have you ever practised with shot and 
 shell ?— Yes. 
 
 3077. How often in the year have you so prac- 
 tised ? — I do not suppose I have had it above eight or 
 10 times. 
 
 3078. Is there any shape in which further Govern- 
 ment aid is, in your opinion, desirable ? — I have a 
 very strong opinion that Government aid would tend 
 very much to our efficiency ; at the same time I con- 
 sider that at the present moment my corps is upon a 
 better footing than it was at the beginning — the 
 people better understand the nature of our relations 
 than they did at first — and I consider that although 
 we do not keep up to the same number, that we stand 
 upon a more firm foundation. There is uo doubt that 
 Government aid would tend very much to our effi- 
 ciency, and the manner in which I should humbly 
 submit that that aid should be given would be in the 
 way of contributing, not in small sums annually, but 
 I think that if the Government gave us any assist- 
 ance, it should be, say, for five years, so as to keep 
 those, who are really efficient in the force, and not 
 allow them to go. A man, after he has been drilled, 
 of course is of far greater value to us than a raw 
 recruit, and consequently if any Government aid was 
 given that would enable men to withdraw from tho 
 force, the public money would be very much thrown 
 away. 
 
 3079. How would you propose to carry it out ? — I 
 should say, that in order to entitle any recruit to any 
 aid from the public purse, he ought to be at least of 
 five years' standing, and then according to the amount 
 that might be appropriated by the Government for 
 that purpose, I should retain a certain proportion for 
 the purpose of improving our administration — for in- 
 stance, to assist in providing a house to contain the 
 stores, and then to apply the other half as a reserve 
 fund to be appropriated for the pay of the volunteers 
 — say, after five years' service, 51. perhaps in five 
 years. I think that less than that would not have 
 much effect. 
 
 3080. What do you mean by the pay of the volun- 
 teers after they have served five years ? Do you 
 mean that they should be entitled to some sort of 
 remuneration ? — Yes. I am satisfied that if we give 
 them something, however small it might be, if we 
 make them aware that for the time they spend they 
 will receive something from the Government, we 
 shall ensure their attendance in such a way as you 
 cannot possibly expect at the present time. 
 
 3081. Do you think there would be any delicacy 
 on theh- part in receiving pay ? — I think that a great 
 many would not receive it ; but that there are many 
 very valuable members to whom it would be of very 
 great importance. 
 
 3082. {Chairman.') Of what class do your men 
 consist generally ? — I think that I have almost every 
 class ; there is a large number of fishermen, who are 
 the very poorest class of the community ; but they 
 are the most valuable men that we have for artillery 
 corps. 
 
 3083. (Major Hurcourt.) Did you find those men 
 in uniforms yourself? — Yes. 
 
 3084. What was the expense of that uniform ? — 
 "Very small indeed ; I think I clothed 60 men for 30/., 
 about 10s. a man. 
 
 3085. Do you send quarterly practice returns to 
 the officer commanding the Royal Artillery in your 
 district ? — Yes. 
 
 3086. Do you send returns of stores to the same 
 officer ? — Yes. 
 
 3087. Is your practice carried on under his super- 
 intendence ? — Yes. 
 
 3088. Do you find that tlie artilli'ry volunteers dis- 
 like this organization ? — No ; I find, on the contrary, 
 that there is no complaint, and I tiiink that we are 
 on a better footing with them than we were at first. 
 
 3089. Do you think that if your artillery volun- 
 teers were placed under the district officers of Royal 
 Artillery even more than they are at present, they 
 would be better pleased with it ? — I think so. 
 
 3090. You have, I suppose, a regular course of 
 drill in your corps ? — Yes. 
 
 3091. Commencing with marching drill? — Yes. 
 
 3092. And going on to gun drill ? — Yes. 
 
 3093. And at hist carliine drill ? — Yes. 
 
 3094. Do you attach any importance to the use of 
 the carbine by artillerymen ? — I consider that it is 
 one of the greatest standby's that we have, and the 
 rifle range ; for nothing is so great an inducement to 
 the volunteers to enrol and to maintain themselves 
 as the annual competitions which take place about 
 this time, and the desire to distinguish themselves. 
 
 3095. Are your seafaring men armed with those 
 carbines ? — Not at all ; it does not apply to them ; I 
 spoke of the other battery. 
 
 3096. Do you find that it makes any dilFerence in 
 the enrolments, or that the men would just as soon 
 enrol with the carbine as without it ? — Only as to the 
 seafaring men. 
 
 3097. Is there any organized association for prize 
 firing with great guns amongst the artillery in your 
 district ? — Yes, both with great guns and with car- 
 bines ; we have two. 
 
 3098. Which is the most popular ? — As far as the 
 great gun competition is concerned, I cannot speak 
 from experience, for we are only going to commence 
 just now, but the men are looking forward to it with 
 a very great deal of pleasure, and they seem to take 
 great interest in it. 
 
 3099. Have you ever had any battalion drill ? — No. 
 I have endeavoured to induce my different batteries 
 occasionally to parade with a neighbouring rifle corps, 
 with the assistance and superintendence of the adju- 
 tant who has been appointed there, but they assume 
 that provided they attend 24 drills we are not entitled 
 to insist upon their attending any further. 
 
 3100. When a man is no longer a recruit, how 
 many drills do you think are necessary in the course 
 of a year to keep up his efficiency ? — If he has once 
 been effective I think 24 statutory drills and parades 
 would be perfectly sufficient. 
 
 3101. Do you think that that is the largest number 
 that would be requisite ? — If he. has once been effi- 
 cient I think that would be quite sufficient. 
 
 3102. You think that 24 drills is the largest num- 
 ber of di'ills that would be necessary — gun drills ? — 
 I mean for both marching and gun drill. 
 
 3103. How many gun drills do you think would be 
 sufficient after a man has once become eflective? — 
 When you speak of gun drills you mean mereh', I 
 suppose, loading and firing the 32-pounder, without 
 reference to other duties, such as mounting and dis- 
 mounting guns, &c., of course that is a very different 
 matter, but if a man is an effective gunner I think 
 that he might recollect perfectly everj'thing by turn- 
 ing out twelve times in the year. I think that would 
 be quite sufficient. 
 
 3104. What kind of guns are you supplied with? 
 — With 32-pounders. I have also provided at my 
 own expense a considerable amount of tackle, skids, 
 and gyn for repository work, to gi^e the men every 
 jiossible inducement to attend. 
 
 3105. Have you found the attendance of the men 
 better at gun practice than at gun drill ? — No, they 
 generally come together. I always make it a rule to 
 give them a good deal of gun drill with the gun 
 practice. 
 
 3106. I suppose you only have the gun practice in 
 summer ? — No ; we have had it in a very desultory 
 manner, at diflerent times.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FOKCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 133 
 
 3107. Have you ever had any gun pi'aclice in the 
 winter ? — Not in tlie depth of winter, but very early 
 in the spring. 
 
 3108. Have you any rifle corps in your neighbour- 
 In, od ? — Yes, we have two very near to us. 
 
 3109. Do you find that the recruiting for (ho one 
 arm interferes with the recruiting for the other? — 
 No, not in the least; I do not think that it has any 
 effect now. 
 
 3110. Do all your men go through a course of 
 theoretical instruction in boring and fixing fuses, 
 trajectory, and the science of artillery generally ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3111. Do you make it a sine rpid non that a man 
 should be up in all those subjects before he is elected 
 a non-commissioned officer? — Yes. 
 
 3112. How are your non-commissioned officers 
 elected ? — They are not elected ; they were originally, 
 but I completely upset that plan, for I found the prin- 
 ciple of election was a very bad one, and that it 
 created a great deal of evil in the corps. 
 
 3113. Y'^ou have taken that matter into your own 
 hands? — Yes, entirelj^ 
 
 1)114. Have any of your officers been attached (o 
 the Royal Artillerj'- for instruction besides yourself ? — 
 None. 
 
 3115. Have the fuses with which you have been 
 supplied by the Government been generally good ? — 
 Very good, indeed. 
 
 3116. (Viscoiint Hardinge.) Arc they the old 
 wooden fuses ? — They are Boxer's fuses, the most 
 improved kind for land service. 
 
 3117. i^Mojor Harcourt.) At what distance is the 
 magazine from the battery at which you practise ? — 
 About 400 yards. 
 
 31 IS. Then you are at no expense for conveying 
 ammunition from the magazine to the battery ? — No. 
 
 3119. Y''ou have stated that you constructed the 
 battery, what was the expense of the construction of 
 that battery ? — I cannot tell you, it was so desul- 
 tory, a great deal of the construction was done with 
 the aid of my own farm horses and farm servants, as 
 well as some considerable assistance which was ren- 
 dered by the volunteers. 
 
 3120. Have you been put to any expense for the 
 conveyance of stores ? — I believe that the officer 
 commanding the district has undertaken to reimburse 
 the expense. 
 
 3121. Have you the charge of any large amount 
 of Government stores ? — At times we have a very 
 considerable amount of ammunition in the magazine ; 
 we have got all the ordinary side arms and other 
 things in store. 
 
 3122. Can you state what the expense of erecting 
 your magazine and store ]'ooms was ? — No, that is all 
 in stone buildings, which I have appropriated for that 
 jiur]iose. 
 
 3123. Were those buildings previously used for 
 other purposes ? — Yes, they were generally farm 
 buildings. 
 
 3124. Can you set a value upon them ? — No. 
 
 3125. Do you think that varying the drills as much 
 as possible is beneficial to the men, and secures a 
 better attendance ? — Yes, decidedly. 
 
 3126. Do you not think that such a variety in drill 
 as would be aflbrded by repository exercises would be 
 very salutary ? — Decidedly. I have been very 
 desirous to induce the Government to see the advan- 
 tage of bringing my drill instructor out of the small 
 to\vu where he resides, where he is mixed up very 
 much among the population there ; it would be a 
 very great advantage for the service, and a great ad- 
 vantage with respect to keeping the stores, if we were 
 allowed to have his quarters close to the battery. If 
 we had the gunner's quarters close to the battery of 
 three guns, considering the great value of the stores 
 under his charge, and the small arms as well, it would 
 he a very great benefit. 
 
 3127. Suppose facilities were afforded by the Ad- 
 miralty to any members of volunteer corjjs ou the 
 coast for obtaining a knowledge of gun drill at ships' 
 
 guns, do you tiiink that any would be likely to avail Capt. A. Inncs. 
 
 themselves of such facilities? — lean speak very much 
 
 upon that point. I began in the year 1854, and I 24 .June I8G2. 
 
 assisted, as far as was in my power, to induce the — — 
 
 fishermen and the seafaring population to enrol in 
 naval coast volunteers, and for a long time they 
 persevered and attended during the month, which 
 they had to spend on board the " Edinburi.'h," but I 
 I'ound that it had so very bad an effect in breaking up 
 the difl'erent crews of my fishing boats, and throwing 
 a certain number of pcojile idle, that I recommended 
 to the Controller of the Navy to permit the drill 
 which was takint; jilace on board the ship to be trans- 
 ferred to the coast ; that was .some years before the 
 volunteer movement took place, and I found that the 
 Old}' objection against it was the <'xpense, for it was 
 undeniably a much better jjlan. If we want to have 
 the benefit of the seafaring population we must bring 
 it to their doors ; we cannot take them away from 
 home for a month. 
 
 3128. Is the class of men to whom you allude likely 
 to enrol in the royal naval reserve — arc they eligible 
 for it ? — There is a proportion of those men who are 
 now in the volunteer force, who have been drilled on 
 board of one of the shijis in that reserve. 
 
 3129. lam not talking of the naval coast volunteers, 
 but of the royal naval reserve ; a mau must be rated 
 as an A.B., are there many of the men to whom 
 you have referred likely to be so rated ? — I should 
 think so. 
 
 3130. Are there many men who would be likely to 
 enrol themselves in the royal naval reserve ? — No, I 
 am afraid not, for these fishermen are extremely pre- 
 judiced as to their own mode of life. 
 
 3131. Still you think if tliey had facilities afforded 
 to them to learn drill on board ship, they would avail 
 themselves of such facilities, if j)laced on the same 
 footing as other volunteers ? — I am not so sure of 
 that ; I have no reason to say that they would not, 
 but I have no reason to think that they would. I 
 have tried to induce them to carry out their deep-sea 
 fishing by means of a vessel that I brought down for 
 that purpose, but I could not get them away, they 
 are so wedded to the practice of fishing in small 
 boats. 
 
 3132. But if you brought the means of learning 
 ship gun drill to their own doors, do you think tlu-y 
 would avail themselves of it ? — Yes. 
 
 3133. Is your corps generally in a healthy condi- 
 tion ? — Yes. 
 
 3134. Do you think that Government aid is neces- 
 s.ary to ensure its permanence and efficiency ? — I 
 think that Government aid would very materially 
 assist it, at the same time I do not think it absolutely 
 necessary. 
 
 3135. If Government aid were given, will j-ou be 
 good enough to say in what form you would like it 
 to be given ? — I may remark, that I have no desire 
 as the result of exjierience in the administration of 
 the funds of the corps, to show that the permanence 
 of our force must depend on additional aid from the 
 jntblic purse. I see no reason to anticiijale the break 
 down on this account, and I consider this to establish 
 our best claim for public favour and support. Some 
 additional aid from Government would promote our 
 efficiency and relieve some private individuals of 
 unequal expense, which has to be provided. But the 
 most rigid economy in our financial arrangements is 
 more absolutely necessary, and should be extended to 
 the supplies and furnishings by Government ; and I 
 have reason to think there is room for improvement 
 in the arrangements by which a saving of arms and 
 stores may be effected with considerable advantage to 
 the service. For instance, in the case of two or more 
 amalgamated batteries it would be of great advantage 
 that the gunner, in charge of the guns, stores, maga- 
 zine, and small arras, should have his permanent 
 quarters close to the gun batteiy and head-quarters, 
 with every detail under the close inspection of the 
 commanding officer, so as to obviate the j)resent 
 inevitable inconvenience and disorder resulting in 
 
 S 3
 
 134 
 
 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C!0MM1SSI0NERS APPOINTED 
 
 Cant. A. limes, much unavoidable deterioration of public property, aud 
 such private contributions would Iii' readily afforded for 
 
 £4 June 1862. the purpose as Government should see tit to demand. 
 
 With regard to the question of Government aid, 
 
 I conceive that there is no sort of aid which the 
 Government can bestow, that must not come in the 
 shape of a pecuniary contribution to the force ; that 
 contribution, I consider, should come in the shape of 
 a fund, which should not be bestowed upon the 
 volunteers annually, but should be extended over five 
 years, because I think I see great evil in it other- 
 wise. I have had a good many recruits pass through 
 my hands, and they have given us the trouble of 
 drilling them, and they have put the Government to 
 the expense of much ammunition ; and after we have 
 had the trouble of making them effective, I consider 
 fliat the Government aid should have the effect of 
 inducing those men to i-emaiu with us at least five 
 years ; so that whatever the sum may be which is 
 contributed for that purpose, it should be looked 
 forward to as a bonus after a certain number of years 
 probation. 
 
 3l36. (Lord Overstone.) Do you consider that 
 your company is at this moment in a state capable of 
 rendering efficient service in working the guns in 
 position? — The battery which is composed of sea- 
 faring men, particularly so. I have given them such 
 instruction in the use of the different tackle, and the 
 different appliances, and in what we call repository 
 work, as would enable them to be very efficient in 
 mounting aud dismounting heavy ordnance. I have 
 been also trying to induce them, by going to Aberdeen, 
 to keep up the ])ractice with the 68-pounder, in 
 addition to the 32, and they have had the oppor- 
 tunity. 
 
 3137- Speaking of your corps generally, do you 
 think that, in case of a sudden emergency arising, 
 they are in a state fit for actual service, and are 
 capable of rendering efficient assistance in working 
 guns in position ? — I think that a very considerable 
 proportioji of them are in that state, but there are 
 some men in whom I should not have that confidence. 
 
 3138. Your company is limited to the duty, if I 
 understand your evidence correctly, of working the 
 guns in position, and it does not in any way enter 
 upon the duty of working moveable guns ? — No, no 
 field gun duty. 
 
 3139. (Major Harcourt.) What is the average 
 height of your men? — There is one battery in 
 which I should say they average perhaps 5 feet 
 7, or 5 feet 8 ; I have been in the habit of enrolling 
 in the corps a number of very small boys, who are 
 growing rapidly out of their clothes, and I conceive 
 that they are by far the most valuable recruits that 
 we have, as they are always learning their drill 
 better, and consequently their number would bring 
 down the average very considerably ; they are em- 
 ployed in the band, but they are all drilled as 
 gunners. 
 
 3140. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) What has prevented 
 your establishment being completed ? — I have never 
 been very anxious, seeing that they are not self-sup- 
 porting altogether, to make the corps so large, but to 
 to what I could manage to do to keejj it up on a 
 permanent footing ; the funds at my disposal are, of 
 course, very small indeed, coming from other soui-ces, 
 and I have been very anxious to avoid having offi- 
 cers appointed, and placing the corps in such a position, 
 that if there was any failure we should be forced to go 
 down. 1 consider that from the system which I have 
 adopted of keeping everything as moderate as possible, 
 both with regard to numbers, and in other respects, 
 we are in a much more substantial position than 
 otherwise we should have been. 
 
 3141. Could you obtain recruits if you wished for 
 them ? — Yes, easily. 
 
 3142. (Lt.-Col. Bartfelot.) What is the expense 
 of your band ? — I really know very little about the 
 band, I do not recollect; all the band are gunners ; 
 but I really know little or nothing about their ac- 
 
 counts, it is simply a flute band, a good many have 
 been instructed. 
 
 3143. Have you no men in your band who are not 
 effective artillerymen ? — No. 
 
 3144. {Col. MacMiirdo.) You mentioned a short 
 time back, that your magazine was a building that 
 was formerly used for another purpose ? — No, that 
 was the stores, I have built it according to the plans 
 I received from the officer commanding the engineers 
 in Edinburgh. 
 
 314o. Has that been inspected and passed ? — Yes. 
 
 3146. Have you got three 32-j)ounders in a liattery 
 that was built by the volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 3147. Have you got a corporal of the coast brigade 
 attached to you ? — Yes. 
 
 3148. Are you satisfied with that man's conduct ? 
 — I am very much satisfied with him ; I consider that 
 he is very satisfactory in every way, and I have been 
 very anxious, as he has, like all old soldiers, very 
 little to do, to have him nearer to me, both for the 
 sake of his own family and himself, for the tempta- 
 tions in a small county town are not at all desirable. 
 
 3149. You are aware that the regulations require 
 that the accommodation in the way of residence for 
 the gunner to take charge of the batteiy, and proper 
 storage for the amunition, should be provided by the 
 volunteers? — I beg your pardon, that was our 
 original understanding, but that is taken off, we are 
 relieved from that expense ; we used to provide ac- 
 commodation for the gunner down in the town, but 
 there has been a change made and the Government 
 now ])rovide accommodation for him. 
 
 3150. The Government allow fourpence a day for 
 lodging money, liut you stated that you were desirous 
 that the gunner should live near the battery ? — Ym ; 
 I should like to have his quarters attached to the 
 battery. 
 
 3151. Are you aware that by providing those 
 quarters near the battery you would be entitled to 
 receive 4c?. a day as lodging allowance, which is now 
 paid to the man for providing his own ? — I was not 
 aware of that. I thought that the volunteers had 
 nothing to do whatever with the question of the 
 Government supply to the coast brigade. 
 
 3152. Who cleans your guns ? — That is a question 
 which has just been mooted by Colonel Maclean and 
 myself for the first time. 
 
 3153. How are the guns cleaned? — The guns are 
 not cleaned ; but, do you not mean new lacquered aud 
 put into good condition ? 
 
 3154. Yes ; to be kept in good condition.— Imme- 
 diately after firing I always insist upon the men 
 washing out the guns ; but that is not what I mean 
 by cleaning ; the guns are very much in want of 
 being scraped, and they require to be lacquered. It 
 requires a certain amount of anti-corrosive paint, and 
 everything which has not been supplied is very much 
 wanted. We have not tompions, and the guns are 
 deteriorating from being constantly exposed to the sea. 
 
 3155. Have you made any application to have your 
 guns lacquered ? — Yes. 
 
 3156. What answer did you receive ? — That it is 
 about to be done. 
 
 3157. I wish to know who has the charge of the 
 guns generally, to keep them in order, and also the 
 side-arms ? — The gunner in charge belonging to the 
 coast brigade, a non-commissioned officer of the Royal 
 Artillery is entirely in charge of that duty. 
 
 3158. {Major Harcourt.) Are you not responsible 
 for him? — Yes, I am responsible for him; ho is 
 under my orders. 
 
 3159. If anything went wrong you would be held 
 responsible ? — Yes, I conceive so. 
 
 3160. Is it not the case that you cannot fire more 
 than 100 rounds without the gun being examined by 
 an officer of artillery ? — I never heard that ; it is not 
 yet carried out. 
 
 3161. Is it not part of the drill that the gun should 
 be cleaned every time it is used ? — Yes ; one means 
 of saving a considerable expense to the Government
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 13.0 
 
 is in our ammunitiou. Unfortunately jus^t now, not 
 being a brigade, I have no adjutant, and I am obliged 
 to send to Aberdeen for a lieutenant of lioyal Artil- 
 lery whenever I have practice with shot or shell. 
 That is not tlie case wliere we fire witli blank, and 
 I do not exactly understand the object of it, because 
 really the practice witli blank cartridge is more dan- 
 gerous than the otlier, and it would be very de- 
 .sirable, when an officer lias made himself efficient at 
 head-quarters at Woolwich, that he should be allowed 
 to superintend his own practice, whieii would save 
 much to the Government, because when I liring an 
 officer there it is always blowing great guns by some 
 accident, and we lose all our practice from the very 
 wild manner of firing from the high elevation of my 
 battery — tiring at a long range — it is hardly possible 
 to make anything like correct practice, and where you 
 do not get that you do not instruct the men. 
 
 3162. Plaveyou ever made any application through 
 the officer commanding the Royal Artillery in your 
 district to practise the corps under your own com- 
 mand ? — I felt that I should be placing him at a dis- 
 advantage, because it is a very serious responsibility 
 that I should be placing him under. 
 
 3163. {Col. MacMurdo.) Are you not aware that 
 such applications are received at this office, and 
 that upon the recommendation of the artillery officer 
 of the district such applications are allowed ? — I 
 made such an inquiry within the last few weeks, and 
 I learned that that was the case in very rare instances 
 only ; I was not aware that it was the general prac- 
 tice. 
 
 3164. In the case of an officer who has passed 
 through a course of gunnery at Woolwich, be ought 
 
 .to be perfectly competent to do it, ought he not ? — 
 Yes ; and indeed for twelve months I conducted it 
 entirely myself ; but I had an order at the end of that 
 time to the effect that it should no longer be so ; and 
 the consequence was this, that very great inconve- 
 nience resulted ; we always expend much more am- 
 munition than is necessary. I should prefer firing 
 only four or five rounds ; but when you bring an 
 officer a certain distance, you like to have some 
 amount of practice, and not bring him Ijack so fre- 
 quently. 
 
 3165. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) From whom did you 
 receive the order ? — It is the regulation. I felt great 
 difficulty in asking anyoue to say that I was compe- 
 tent. I think that it was for them to find it out. 
 
 3166. {Chairman.) Have you any further sugges- 
 tions to make to the Commission? — Experience shows 
 that the spontaneous action of a close population may 
 easily take the form of volunteer corps, and for a 
 time maintain its number on the muster roll, receiving 
 the support of the public by considerable contribu- 
 tions. But it is evident that its constitution as a 
 useful and available military body must depend on its 
 organization and superintendence by competent and 
 
 ' qualified officers. I have had frequent occasion to 
 observe the advantage we derive from the able and 
 zealous instruction and assistance aflbrded us by the 
 superior officers appointed by Government to inspect 
 
 and superintend the force, greatly contributing to Capt. A. Innen. 
 
 confirm and su|)i)ort the inexperienced volunteer 
 
 oflicer in his new command. In the case of a small 24 June 1862, 
 count)', with rural populalion, (he want of a sufficient 
 number of resident proprietors taking an active in- 
 terest in public affairs is much felt ; and I am of opi- 
 nion that no measure would tend more to support and 
 confirm our establishment than to make it be felt that 
 th(\ force is umler the more active encouragement and 
 superintendence of those holding Her Majesty's com- 
 mission as deputy-lieutenants. It appears to me that 
 the duties of connnanding officers of volunteer corps 
 can only be adequately |)crformed by those pos.sessed 
 of certain qualifications, some natural and some ac- 
 quired, and with a due regard to the public interest 
 these appointments should on no account be too lightly 
 bestowed. If Government wish to see men of station 
 and education filling such appointments with zeal 
 and efficiency it seems absolutely necessary that 
 the)' shall find themselves associated with and sup- 
 ported by men of similar characters and qualifica- 
 tions. In the appointment of subalterns the same 
 rule holds, with the exception, that some of the 
 qualifications of the commanding officer may be dis- 
 pensed with, provided his time may be sufficiently 
 at his disposal for the due discharge of his duty. If 
 the above requirements were better coinplied with 
 and the duties, authority, and standing of the officers 
 more completely defined and vindicated, the right 
 men would soon take their right place. While it is 
 absolutely necessary to provide leading strings for 
 those who have neither time nor opportunity to pro- 
 cure instruction, it is equally necossarj' to stimulate 
 and encourage efficient olHcers by allowing more 
 exercise of their discretion, which would save much 
 inconvenience, and the useless expenditure of ammuni- 
 tion, and the demoralizing effect of subverting au- 
 thority. Where it can be accomplished without ex- 
 pense, great advantage is derived by affording our 
 gunners more extended instruction of learning their 
 drill in mounting and dismounting heav)' ordnance, b)- 
 practice with guns of different calibres, where they 
 are to be found in the neighbouring stations, by 
 mutual interchange of ammunition, of which we have 
 already the successful experience, and advantage 
 should be taken of such opportunities of the assem- 
 bly of neighbouring corps for the purposes of in- 
 spection. For most classes of volunteers I find no sort 
 of encouragement more effectual to jsromote regular 
 attendance at drill and parade than the facilities for 
 practice at a good and accessible rifle range, and no 
 duty and responsibility of a commanding officer can 
 be more important than to provide against accidents 
 as far as possible, and, in many cases, on private pro- 
 perty the precautions and regulations to be established 
 with this view should be left to his report and 
 suggestion, in preference to the crude and imprac- 
 ticable conditions recommended by inexperienced 
 inspectors ; for while the system of inspection is 
 right, and ought not to be dispensed with, the best 
 interest of a corps may be sacrificed by the result of 
 an ill-digested report. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Lieut.-Col. James Bourne examined. 
 
 3167. {Chairman.) Do you command the 4th 
 Lancashire Artillery Volunteer Corps ? — I do. 
 
 3168. Is it a brigade ? — It is. 
 
 3169. Of how many batteries does it consist ? — Of 
 eight. 
 
 3170. Have you any suggestion to offer to the 
 Commission, with respect to artillery coi'ps ? — I am 
 scarcely prepared to offer any suggestions ; I rather 
 expected to have been examined particularly as to 
 
 , finances. 
 
 3171. Have you any fund that is raised for brigade 
 purposes ? — We have a fund that has been raised by 
 the officers and by the subscriptions of the men, and 
 we had in lbi;9j when the brigade was first esta- 
 
 blished, a large donation from the town, amounting I 
 think, in round numbers to 1,200/. ; which sum was 
 entirely appropriated to the clothing of the regiment 
 in general. 
 
 3172. Was the clothing entirely paid for out of that 
 fund ? — The clothing was paid out of that fund, with 
 the addition of an equal sum that was subscribed by 
 the officers, and another sum that. was subscribed by 
 the men, amounting altogether in round numbers to 
 about 3,500/. 
 
 3173. Of what class were the men who were so 
 clothed ? — The class of men in my brigade, I may 
 say, are entirely clerks. I have 50 or 60, but not 
 more, mechanics or artizaus of the higher class. 
 
 S 4 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 J. Bourne.
 
 ]36 
 
 MINDTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COJMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut- Col. 
 J. Bourne. 
 
 24 June 1SG2. 
 
 3174. You me<an clerks in merchants' houses ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3175. Have you any standard as to the height of 
 men you admit ? — There are none now admitted less 
 than .5 feet S in., I may say that the average height is 
 very little short of 5 iect 10 in. 
 
 3176. Do you apprehend when the clothing re- 
 quires renewal that a fund will lie raised to clothe 
 those men who require it afresh ? — I have very 
 great douhts about it ; we have in hand about 
 25 suits of clothing, some few of them have been 
 issued, and some have not ; we have also in hand 
 about 90/. as a i-eserve fund, applicable to the 
 renewal, or to the refitting of the clothing. 
 
 3177. Are you supplied by the Government with 
 guns and gun sheds, or are the expenses defrayed out 
 of the funds of the brigade ? — The Government have 
 found us with the short carbine and sword-bayonet, 
 and they have also supplied ns with eight garrison 
 guns, .small 24-poundei's, which we use for drill pur- 
 poses ; but we were at the expense of making plat- 
 forms for those guns. 
 
 3178. {Viscount Hardinge.) Are the platforms of 
 wood or of stone ? — Of wood. 
 
 3179. Was not the cost of tlie wood defrayed by 
 the Government ? — No. 
 
 3180. Is not that generally so ? — It lias never 
 come under my observation. 
 
 3181. {Major Harcourt.) Are you not aware that 
 the platforms are supplied by the Government, being 
 made by the Royal Engineers for artillery volunteers 
 when asked for ? — I was not aware of that. 
 
 3182. Have the corps uuder your commend ever 
 had any liattalion drill ? — Yes. 
 
 3183". To what extent ?— We have battalion drill 
 during the summer months, once every week. 
 
 3184. Do you attach much importance to battalion 
 drill for your corps ? — I attach importance to it as a 
 means of employing and giving occupation to the men 
 when they are assembled, inasmuch as we have not 
 any means of giving them gun drill to the extent of 
 the numbers in the brigade at one time. 
 
 3185. Do you think the divisional field days are of 
 any use to artillery volunteers ? — I am afraid I 
 must say no. 
 
 3186. {Viscount Hardinge.) I think you have 
 stated that you have not facilities for drilling more 
 than a certain number of 5'our men at gun drill ; I 
 presume you mean that your guns being limited in 
 number you cannot put the different companies 
 through the gun drills as often as you would wish ? — 
 That is so. 
 
 3187. Have you a gun range ? — Yes. 
 
 3188. Can you practise with shot and shell at that 
 range ? — Yes ; we have practised. 
 
 3189. Do you see your way at all to erecting 
 another battery, or having facilities afforded to you 
 for mounting more guns, and thereby increasing the 
 opportunities for drill ? — No ; the fort which we 
 practise from is about four or five miles distant from 
 head quarters, the North Fort ; we march the men 
 down there by batteries in succession during the 
 summer months, and we have boarded the men there 
 for certain periods, say for ten days or a fortnight at 
 a time, and during the period that those men resided 
 at that fort we had two gun drills jier day, or 
 practice very early in the morning and very late in 
 the afternoon, the men returning to their daily avoca- 
 tions in the town and coming back to sleep at the fort 
 at night. 
 
 3190. Where were those 24-pounders mounted ? — 
 On our parade ground, close to the storehouse. 
 
 3191. Did you say that you had a range from the 
 parade ground ? — No, only from the fort, where we 
 carry on the practice. 
 
 3192. Could not you mount more guns on your 
 parade ground ? — Yes, we could cover it with guns 
 and make a park of it, there is space enough. 
 
 3193. Would it not be an advantage to you if you 
 were able to put a greater number of the men through 
 their drill and if you had a greater number of guns 
 
 mounted on your parade ground ? — No ; I flunk 
 that it would be no great advantage, as we have now 
 at our storehouse what we call a dummy gun made 
 of wood, with which we ]iut every man through a 
 preliminary course of drill, and after he has gone 
 through a certain course there lie is taken to the 
 parade ground and is there put tlirough a drill with 
 a 24-pounder ; but that is done almost every evening. 
 
 3194. {Cliairman.) Is that done by separate bat- 
 teries ? — Yes, in fact it is done by separate detach- 
 ments of batteries. 
 
 3195. {Major Harcourt.) Do you not think that if 
 artillerymen were allowed the use of guns, where 
 practicable, on the occasion of divisional field days, 
 with a special allowance of blank ammunition, and 
 they were placed under the command of an artillery 
 officer, it would do them more good, and please them 
 better, than being brigaded with infantry ? — Yes, 
 it would do them very great good and afford them 
 great pleasure ; or even with siege guns. 
 
 3196. Have j^ou any organized association for prize 
 firing with great guns in your district ? — No. 
 
 3197. Do yon think that something of that .sort 
 would generally be of advantage to artillery corps ? 
 — Of very little advantage to artillery corps. I do 
 not quite understand your question as to prizes ; I 
 was referring to rifles, we have no organized associa- 
 tion for great guns. 
 
 3198. Do you think that something of the sort 
 would be an advantage to artillery corps generally ? — 
 Yes, but not much. 
 
 3199. You are only supplied with garrison guns ? 
 — With garrison guns only. 
 
 3200. How many drills per annum do you consider 
 tliat a gunuer should attend to entitle him to be con- 
 sidered an effective after he has jaassed out of the list 
 of recruits ? — I should say from 15 to 20. 
 
 3201. With regard to gun drills, how many gun 
 drills do you think should entitle a man to be consi- 
 dered effective after he has become a competent 
 gunner ? — I should say about the same number, 15 to 
 20, or perhaps less. 
 
 3202. How many should you consider necessary, 
 including company drill, carbine drill, and gun drill 
 altogether ? — Thirty. 
 
 3203. Do you consider the present number not 
 sufficient ? — Not sufficient for the artillery. 
 
 3204. Do 3'ou find the attendance of your men 
 better at gun practice than at gun drill ? — Much better. 
 
 3205. Does that refer to firing blank cartridge ? 
 
 It alludes to blank cartridge, but more especially to 
 shot and shell practice. 
 
 3206. Do your men go througli a course of theore- 
 tical instruction in gunnery, and in borins: and flxino- 
 fuzes? — A very superficial one. 
 
 3207. Is not such instruction necessary for artillery- 
 men ? — Most necessary. 
 
 3208. Particularly for one who asjiires to become a 
 non-commissioned officer ? — Most necessarv. 
 
 3209. In what way are your non-commissioned 
 officers selected ? — I can scarcely tell you in what way 
 they were selected on the formation of the corps, but 
 now, when there is a vacancy, the captain of the bat- 
 tery is requested to send the names of a certain 
 number of men who attend most regularly at their 
 drills to the adjutant, and generally that number 
 consists of about six or eight ; the adjutant then 
 examines those men and reports to me as to the man 
 who he thinks is most eligible for promotion, and I 
 invariably adopt his suggestion. 
 
 3210. Have you been put to any expense for the 
 carriage of stores ? — Yes. 
 
 3211. Were you aware at the time that that was 
 an expense which is undertaken by the War Oflice '■' 
 —No. 
 
 32 1 2. Are you aware of that now ? — Yes, I am. 
 
 3213. Have you the charge of any large amount of 
 Government stores ? — No, because we are so near tlie 
 jilace where the ammunition is kept. 
 
 3214. You are put to no expense in storing it 1— 
 None.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THK CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 137 
 
 3215. Have any of your men ever been through 
 any repository drill ? — Very few of them. 
 
 3216. Do you think that .such ii motle of varyinn; 
 the drill would ))C advantageous to the men ?• — Mo.st 
 advantageous. 
 
 3217. And particularly so to garrison artillerymen ? 
 — Yes, particularly so. 
 
 3218. Is it not so considered in the Royal Artillery ? 
 — Most decidedly. 
 
 3219. Have you no guns on travelling carriages ? 
 — None at the fort where wc drilled ; there were 
 some at the storehouse. 
 
 3220. Have you any organized means of moving 
 guns on travelling carriages when necessary ? — They 
 were in the storehouse under the charge of an otficer 
 of the Royal Artillery militia. 
 
 3221. Do j'ou consider that the corps under your 
 command generally is in a healthy condition ? — Very 
 much so. 
 
 3222. Do you think that Government aid is neces- 
 sary to secure the permanence and efficiency of yonr 
 corps ? — I do. 
 
 3223. In what form should you prefer that aid to 
 be given ? — I think that the Government ought to 
 give proper instructors, ammunition, and storehouses, 
 and meet the expenses incurred for the custody of 
 the arms ; in fact, all the expenses that a volunteer 
 is out of pocket for drill purposes. 
 
 3224. Are not instructors provided at the expense 
 of Government ? — Yes, to a certain extent. 
 
 3225. Do you mean that a larger nnmber of instruc- 
 tors ought to be provided by the Government ? — Yes, 
 we have had to pr.v lodging money for them. 
 
 3226. Is that generally so in your district ? — 
 Generally so ; at the commencement of the volunteer 
 movemer.t we paid as much as 120Z. or 130/. for in- 
 structors. 
 
 3227. Who are your instructors ? — 'They belong to 
 the Royal Artillery. 
 
 3228. The Coast brigade ?— Yes. 
 
 3229. You have stated that you wish for Govern- 
 ment aid to meet certain items of expense, should you 
 prefer that aid being given in the way you have sug- 
 gested to having a money grant ? — I should prefer a 
 money grant. 
 
 3230. To what extent ?— To the extent of 11. 5s. 
 or 1/. lOs. per head. 
 
 3231. Why should you prefer a money grant ? — 
 Because it would leave the commanding officer more 
 conti-ol over it ; he might save on one head and loose 
 upon another. 
 
 3232. How would you recommend that it should be 
 applied? — I would apply it to the rent of store- 
 houses, the custody and repair of small arms, head- 
 quarters, and the carriage of ammunition. 
 
 3233. {Cliairmnn.) Is not that already paid for ? 
 — We have paid for our own 60/. in the last three 
 years. I would apply it to the providing of a drill 
 ground, the expense of attending parades, and, where 
 it was necessary, lor the men to go by rail for drill 
 purposes, to the expenses incurred ; as I have said 
 before, to the custody and repair of arms, to head- 
 quarters, the serjeant-niajor, to the carriage of am- 
 munition, to a rifle range, and to moving the targets, 
 which is rather a heavy amount with us. It costs 
 15«. or 1/. every night or morning that we go out to 
 gun practice. 
 
 3234. {Major Jlarcourt.) Have you been supplied 
 with floating targets ? — Yes. 
 
 3235. Should you not be satisfied to be supplied 
 with the other items which you have named, on the 
 terms upon which you have been supplied with float- 
 ing targets ; that is to say, that the Government's 
 specification should be adhered to, with a maximum 
 price, trusting to the commanding officer to reduce 
 it as much as possible, but defraying it up to a certain 
 amount ? — Yes. 
 
 3236. And leaving it to the commanding officer to 
 provide himself with the targets, the monev ijeing 
 refunded by the Government if they are provided 
 according to a certain specification, and the cost not 
 
 exceeding a certain amount ? — Yes ; I may say, by 
 way of ex|)l!ination, that our great expense is more 
 for mooring and re-covering the targets than for the 
 target itself. Our practice is carried on in a very 
 crowded river, with a very strong tide, and ihc target 
 luis to be towed out by boatmen, and when (he i)rac- 
 tice is over it has to be towed back again, costing 
 each time I5«. or 1/. 
 
 3237. {Lord Elc/io.) You have stated that all the 
 uniforms were found fm- the men from a general fund, 
 which had been collected ? — Yes. 
 
 3238. By what means do you expect to re-clothe 
 them ? — I can scarcely answer that question ; we 
 have, in round numliers, clothes and money to the ex- 
 tent of about 200/. in hand. The income of the brigade 
 is about 800/. a year; the expenses in round numbers 
 are about 650/. a year, leaving a balance of 150/., 
 which may or may not be applied to the renewal of 
 the clothing. 
 
 3239. Those expenses coming under the heads 
 ■which you have just enumerated ? — Precisely. 
 
 3240. In j'our calculation of 25s. or 30.v., which 
 you think ought to lie given to the commanding ofii- 
 cer to be spent at his discretion, you do not include 
 clothing ? — No. 
 
 3241. Do you mean that the expenses of your artil- 
 lery corps, which are not now met by the Government, 
 would require 25*. a head ? — I think they would ; 
 they have done so Iiitherto. 
 
 3242. Under the heads you have mentioned ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3243. And you do not see any way in which pro 
 vision can be made in the way of clothing for the 
 maintenance of your corps ? — No, unless the Govern- 
 ment were to relieve the men and officers from the 
 expenses which they are now liable to. From the 
 class of men that form the brigade I have no doubt 
 that they would clothe themselves. 
 
 3244. What do they now subscribe ? — I8s. a. year. 
 
 3245. Do you believe that if the Government 
 relieve you of the expenses to which you have re- 
 ferred your brigade would in that case proliably clothe 
 themselves? — I think they would; I think there 
 is no doubt about it. 
 
 3246. (Lord Overstone.) Do you consider that 
 your corps is now in a fit state for actual service ? 
 — Certainly, in a fit state for garrison service. 
 
 3247. Do you think that if Liverpool was me- 
 naced by an invading force your corps is now in a 
 state in which it could render valuable service in 
 working the guns ? — Most valuable. 
 
 3248. Do you think that the efficiency of j'our 
 corps is now exposed to any serious danger arising 
 from pecuniary diiliculties? — Not very serious danger. 
 
 3249. I therefore understand your opinion to be 
 that your corps could l>e maintained without further 
 aid from the Government, but that aid from the Go- 
 vernment would materially strengthen your confi- 
 dence ? — Precisely. 
 
 3250. It is your judgment upon the whole that 
 that aid ought to be rendered? — It is so. 
 
 3251. (Lord Elcho.) Do you say that your corps 
 can be maintained without i'urther aid from the Go- 
 vernment ? — I anticipate some difficulty as to the 
 renewal of the clothing without some aid from Ibc 
 Government. 
 
 3252. Is not the clothing an essential part of the 
 business ? — Most essential. 
 
 3253. So that either the clothing must be i'ound by 
 some means or other, or the incidental expenses must 
 be met or curtailed, in which the men would pi'o- 
 bably find, if they had no subscrijitions to jiay, wliat 
 was requisite ior the clothing ? — Yes. 
 
 3254. But without the one or the other you do not 
 think that your lirigade can be m'aintain<'d at any- 
 thing like its ])resent strength ? — I think nof. 
 
 3255. (Mfijor-Geii. Eyre.) Yon have stated Ilia! j-ou 
 have a certain number of artizans in your brigade ; 
 have you ibund them very orderl}', well disposed 
 and amenable to discipline ? — Very much so. 
 
 3256. As much so as the others ? — Quilc as much 
 
 '1' 
 
 T.irill.-C'l 
 
 •J. lidurnf. 
 2i ,Tiinc isr,2.
 
 138 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COJIMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 J. Bourne. 
 
 24 June 1862. 
 
 SO as the others. I may state that the artizans are 
 principally in the band, and those do not contribute to 
 the general fund, they are paid by the corps. 
 
 32o7. The artizans are actually paid ? — Yes, several 
 of them, those in the baud. 
 
 3258. So that the band is really not a volunteer 
 band ? — No ; it costs the officers at least from 160^. 
 to 180/. a year, which is not included in these ex- 
 penses. I may be, perhaps, allowed to state to the 
 Conmiission, that I can speak most favourably of the 
 great moral efl'ect which this movement has had upon 
 the volunteers. I am a magistrate in the neighbour- 
 liood of Liverpool, and take a very active part in 
 
 the local administration of justice, I can speak most 
 confidently as to the very good effect that the volun- 
 teer movement has had both in Liverpool and in its 
 neighbourhood. I have observed that many young 
 men who before were lounging and idling about and 
 spending their evening in places of questionable re- 
 sort are now quite changed. They come to drill, and 
 they induce others to come, and the effect has been 
 of a very beneficial character to the neighbourhood ; 
 and I think that the money would be exceedingly 
 well spent, if for no other purpose than that. 
 
 3259. Have you any other suggestion to offer to 
 the Commission ? — No. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Capt. H. Boys, 
 R.N. 
 
 Captain Henry Bots, R.N., examined. 
 
 3260. {Chairman.) You are a captain of the Royal 
 Navy ? — Yes. 
 
 3261. You are the 1st lieutenant of the 2nd 
 Cinque Ports Artillery Volunteer Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 3262. How many men have you ? — It is a battery. 
 
 3263. Of how many men does it consist ? — Sixty- 
 four. 
 
 3264. Do you drill all your men at the batteries of 
 the Royal Artillery, or have you guns of your own ? 
 — We have guns of our own. 
 
 3265. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Wliere are they ? — 
 Two are mounted at Sandwich ; two on the coast 
 near Sandwich, at No. 2 battery (north of Deal). 
 
 3266. {Chairmrm.) Is that an old battery which 
 has been given up to you ? — It is an old battery, but 
 there are no guns in it at present except two that 
 have been sent for our gun drill practice. 
 
 3267. You have not erected it at your own expense? 
 — No ; we do not use it, except as a magazine. 
 
 3268. How often do you get your men together for 
 drill ? — I should say eight or ten times a month in 
 the summer months, and three or four times a month 
 in the winter months. 
 
 3269. Do you find them pretty perfect in their 
 garrison gun drill ? — Yes. 
 
 3270. Ai-e they armed with carbines ? — Yes. 
 
 3271. What value do you attach to the possession 
 of carbines by ai'tiUery volunteers ? — For service 
 none whatever ; but as artillery at present have no 
 guns with which they can attend at volunteer reviews 
 and assemblies they would not be satisfied without 
 their carbines. 
 
 3272. How often do you drill them at the small 
 arms drill ? — Three or four times a month. 
 
 3273. Are you provided with di-ill instructors ? — 
 We have a diill instructor. 
 
 3274. Is he paid for by the Government ? — Yes ; 
 we have to pay his travelling expenses from San- 
 down to Sandwich. 
 
 3275. Does he belong to the coast brigade of Royal 
 Artillery ?— Yes, he is master gunner at Sandown 
 Castle. 
 
 3276. He is only attached to your corps for the 
 purposes of instruction ? — That is all. 
 
 3277. And you pay his expenses in going and 
 coming ? — Yes; it is 6 miles from where he resides. 
 
 3278. {Major Harcourt.) Do you send your quar- 
 terly practice returns to the officer commanding the 
 Royal Artillery in your district ? — Yes. 
 
 3279. And also returns of stores ?— Yes ; the 
 master gunner sends in returns of stores also. 
 
 3280. Is your practice carried on under the super- 
 intendence of the officer commanding the Royal 
 Artillery in your district ? — It is carried on under 
 my superintendence, being myself a naval gunnery 
 officer, by sanction of the officer commanding the 
 Royal Artillery in the district. 
 
 3281. Are you inspected by the artillery officer 
 commanding in the district, or by some one appointed 
 by him ? — Yes. 
 
 3282. Have you any reason to think that this 
 mode of organization is objectionable to the artillery 
 volunteers, and that they dislike being placed under 
 
 the officer commanding the Royal Artillery in the 
 district ? — I have not, nor do I think they dislike it. 
 
 3283. Do you think that if they were placed even 
 more under the control of the district officers of 
 Royal Artillery they would dislike it ? — I think that 
 they would like it ; I think that they are always glad 
 to be commanded by regular officers. 
 
 3284. Are there any rifle volunteers in your neigh- 
 bourhood ? — Several. 
 
 3285. Does the recruiting for one arm interfere 
 with the recruiting for the other ? — It has interfered 
 with both. 
 
 3286. Which arm do you consider the most impor- 
 tant ? — On the coast, certainly the artillery. 
 
 3287. ( Viscount Hardinge.) In what way has it 
 interfered ? — When the corps was first established 
 there was a sort of rivahy whether it should be ar- 
 tillery or rifles, and there was a complete canvassing 
 throughout the town of Sandwich as to whether the 
 eligible men would join the rifles or the artillery, and 
 it interfered materially with the establishment of the 
 two corps ; at the present time I think it does not 
 mterfere so much, as there are very few recruits to be 
 had for either. 
 
 3288. Should you say that the artillery volunteer 
 service was popular or not, or that the men generally 
 preferred the rifles ? — The men generally prefer the 
 artillery. 
 
 3289. {Major Harcourt.) Have your corps ever 
 had any battalion drill ? — Yes. 
 
 3290. To what extent ?— I should say eight or ten 
 times a year. 
 
 3291. Do you attach much importance to that ? — 
 Not for the men, but I think the officers should know 
 something of battalion drill. 
 
 3292. Do you think that divisional field days are 
 of any advantage to artillery volunteers ? — I think that 
 all field days are good for them. 
 
 3293. Do you not think that if artillerymen were 
 allowed the use of guns where practicable, on the 
 occasion of divisional field days, Avith a special allow- 
 ance of ammunition, and were placed under the 
 command of an officer of Royal Artillery, it would 
 please them better than being lirigaded with infantry ? 
 — I certainly think it would, or if they were placed 
 under the command of one of their own officers. 
 
 3294. Have you any organized association for prize 
 firing with great guns in your district ? — We have. 
 
 3295. Do you think that something of that sort 
 would be of advantage to ai-tillery corps generally ? 
 — Yes I think so, judging from the advantage which 
 they seem to derive from that in the Cinque Ports. 
 
 3296. What are the advantages to which you refer ? 
 — I think that it creates emulation amongst the 
 volunteers, and teaches them to notice and to find out 
 their respective faults at their drills. 
 
 3297. You have stated that you consider the ga- 
 thering together of artillery volunteers for the sake 
 of competition prize firing with great guns very ad- 
 vantageous ; and you found your statement upon your 
 own experience in the matter. Have the kindness to 
 tell the Commissioners how the prize association 
 with which you are connected is worked, and what
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 139 
 
 you consiilor l.ho cliicf points to be attended to in puoli 
 associations in order to secure success ? — Each liattcry 
 of Cinque Ports artillery subscribes annually a sum 
 to provide prizes. Once a year the competition firing 
 takes place at the most convenient battery for prac- 
 tice in the district ; each battery sends two detach- 
 ments, each subdivision one, which ensures having 
 drilled men. The detachments fire five rounds each 
 at two targets at different distances, alternately at one 
 and the other ; points are given for elevation, and 
 direction of each shot, and the exact time taken. 
 The greiUest number of points made in the shortest 
 time wins the prize. Tiie result is arrived at by 
 allowing 20 seconds of time to be ecjuivalent to one 
 point, or by adding 20 seconds to the time the five 
 rounds are fired in, for each point short of the 
 greatest numlier of points gained by any detachment. 
 The chief things to be attended to are, I think, that 
 ouly one detachment should fire at a time, and there 
 should be strict supervision in the sponging and 
 loading ; the whole to be carried ou under an officer 
 of the Royal Artillery. 
 
 3298. With what guns are you supplied ? — Two 
 24-pounders, garrison guns for drill purposes, and 
 two 18-pounder field guns of position on the coast for 
 shot practice. 
 
 3299. Have you been put to any expense in making 
 gun sheds ? — We have not erected any, but wo have 
 been put to expense for platforms for them. 
 
 3300. Are you not aware that those platforms are 
 supplied by the Government ? — We expected that 
 they would have been supplied by the Government, 
 and we applied for the expenses, but they were 
 I'efused. 
 
 3301. On -what ground were they refused? — We 
 erected them, I believe, before the order came out. 
 
 3302. They \\ ere not erected, perhaps, according 
 to a specification ? — No. 
 
 3303. Was that the ground on which payment was 
 refused ? — I do not know. 
 
 3304. How many drills per annum do you consider 
 necessary for a gunner to entitle him to be considered 
 an effective after he has passed out of the list of 
 recruits ? — For each description of gun drill, I should 
 say for a fairly intelligent man, 10 drills a year. 
 
 3305. Do you find that the attendance of the men 
 at gun practice is better than at gun drill ? — I think 
 it is. 
 
 3306. Do your men go through a course of theo- 
 retical instruction in the science of artillery, such as 
 boring and fixing fuzes, trajectory, and other things ? 
 — All our men have been instructed in boring and 
 fixing fuzes, and they have also received some 
 instruction in the general principles of gunnery from 
 me in the winter mouths. 
 
 3307. Before a man is selected as a non-commis- 
 sioned officer in the artillery, do you not consider it 
 essential that he should be acquainted with these 
 subjects? — Certainly ; he should be acquainted with 
 everything that has to do with shells and fuzes. 
 
 3308. How are your non-commissioned officers 
 selected ? — By the commanding officer. 
 
 3309. Have any of your officers besides yourself 
 been attached for instruction to the Royal Artillery ? 
 —No. 
 
 3310. I believe you were on board the " Excellent ?" 
 —Yes. 
 
 3311. As gunnery instructor ? — Yes ; I was doing 
 duty as a gunnery instructor for some months. 
 
 3312. [Viscount Hardinge.) Your commanding 
 officer has served in the line, has he not ? — Yes, for 
 some years — Major Thompson. He was in the 
 King's Dragoon Guards. 
 
 3313. {3fajor Harcourt.) Have you ever had any 
 accident occur during practice ? — No. 
 
 3314. At what distance is the magazine from the 
 battery at which you practise ? — 20 or 30 yards ; it 
 is in the old fort in which we practise. 
 
 3315. Have you been put to any expen.se for the 
 transport of ammunition ? — We have had to pay for 
 the carriage of it sometimes from Dover, where it 
 
 is supplied from, and from Sandown Castle, a distance Capt. II. Boys, 
 of three oi- four miles. R.N. 
 
 3316. Are you not aware that that is an expenso 
 
 that would bo borne by the War Office? — They 24 June 1862. 
 demanded it ; they sent an account in to us from the " 
 garrison at Dover, and wo paid it. 
 
 3317. Have you been put to any other expense for 
 the carriage of stores ? — Yes ; wo have been put to 
 expense lor the transport of a gun carriage from 
 Dover ; and wo have had to \ivij for the transport of 
 carbines, and ball cartridges fur them. 
 
 3318. You are not aware that that is an exi)ensc 
 which is undertaken by the War Olfice ? — No ; I am 
 not. 
 
 3319. Have you been at any expense in the con- 
 struction of a battery ? — No ; the gnus are mounted 
 on a mound. 
 
 3320. Have you the charge of any great amount of 
 Government stores ? — No, very few. 
 
 3321. Do you think that varying the drill as much 
 as possible secures much better attendance on the 
 part of the men ? — Yes, I think it docs : the men, 
 when once they have learned a drill, and think that 
 they know it, will not be so likely to come again 
 as when a new description of drill is to be learned. 
 
 3322. Do you think that such a variety in drill as 
 would be aflTorded by repository exercises would be 
 appreciated by the men ? — Yes. 
 
 3323. Do you consider such drill necessary for 
 garrison artiUerymen ? — Yes. 
 
 3324. It is so considered, is it not, in the Royal 
 Artillery ? — Yes, I believe so. 
 
 3325. Would it not be convenient that volunteers 
 provided with guns on travelling carriages should be 
 able to shift the wheels for the sake of greasing them, 
 to dismount the guns in case of accidents happening 
 to the carriages, aud other simple repository services 
 of a like nature ? — I think it would be advanta- 
 geous to the artillery volunteers to know how to shift 
 everything belonging to a gun or carriage, the wheels 
 and so on. 
 
 3326. Have you ever been called upon to move 
 guns from a railway ? — Yes, but not for more than a 
 few hundred yards. 
 
 3327. If it were necessary to move guns on travel- 
 ling carriages, are there any organized means by 
 which that could be done in your neighbourhood ? — 
 No. 
 
 3328. Is it not possible to organize such means ? — 
 I think it would Ije, on the system that I have heard 
 of, which is organized in Sussex. I believe that the 
 farmers in the neighbourhood would horse the guns 
 to go certain distances, provided they were not re- 
 quired too often, or at a time when they were very 
 busy in their agricultural pursuits. 
 
 3329. Suppose facilities were afforded by the 
 Admiralty to any members of volunteer corps on the 
 coast for obtaining a knowledge of gun ilrill at ships' 
 guns, do you think any of your men would be likely 
 to avail themselves of such facilities ? — I think some 
 would, but I can not speak of my o^vn battery, as we 
 have no seabord and no seafaring population. 
 
 3330. Will you be kind enough to state any views 
 that you may have on this subject ? — I think that 
 gun-boats or floating batteries should be stationed at 
 various ports on the coast, to be iu charge of the 
 coastguard* at the station with ship keepers on board, 
 the same as they have now ; that they should be 
 manned by seamen from the naval reserve in the 
 neighbourhood, and tliat the volunteer artillery should 
 provide marines for those vessels when they should 
 be called out ; that those artillerymen should be still 
 attached to their batteries on shore, but merely told 
 ofi" to march on board a certain vessel in case of 
 actual service, to form the crew of that vessel in 
 conjunction with the naval reserve. 
 
 3331. Do you suppose that obtaining men of that 
 class would interfere in any way with the naval 
 reserve ? — I think not, because you would not require 
 seamen, 
 
 T 2
 
 140 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Cupt. U. Boys, 
 H.N. 
 
 2-t June 18fi-2. 
 
 3332. You have stated that you are supplied with 
 siege guns or garrison guns, in your opinion is it 
 desirable that the volunteer artillerymen should be 
 ]irovided with guns of any other class ? — I think it 
 i\onld l)e a great advantage to them if they were 
 provided with light 6-pounder guns, or 12-pounder 
 howitzers. I thinly tliey would lie very effective in 
 repelling a landing from an active enemy's cruisers or 
 privateers. 1 tliiiik they would be particularly use- 
 ful against boats coming up winding rivers. 
 
 3333. How would you move them ? — With drag 
 ropes in action, and to go any long journey I have no 
 doubt that the farmers would horse them. 
 
 3334. How many men would it take to move a 
 6-pounder ? — 15 men is the establishment. I speak 
 of the drill that is established in the navy. 
 
 3335. Do you consider that your corps generally is 
 in a healthy condition with reference to its tinance ? 
 
 I think it is. Perhaps I may be allowed to hand 
 
 in a statement of our finances for the last year {hand- 
 ing in the same). 
 
 3336. Do you consider that Government aid is 
 necessary to ensure the permanence and eiBcieney of 
 your corps ? — Yes, it will be, Init I do not think it 
 is at present. 
 
 3337. Supposing any aid were afforded, in what 
 form shoubl 3'ou prefer'to receive it ? — I should prefer 
 an allowance of so much per head ; a money allowance 
 to be made to the commanding officer for the purpose 
 of paying the travelling expenses of the volunteers in 
 going to reviews and meetings, which at present fall 
 very hardly upon them or the officers, also to esta- 
 blish gun-sheds. 
 
 3338. ( Viscount Hardinge.) How far are your men 
 from their batteries ? — From the drill batteries, about 
 five minutes' marcli ; from the practice battery, be- 
 tween two and three miles ; and over bad roads. 
 
 3339. Where is the drill battery ? — It is just out- 
 side the town of Sandwich, on a mound, which was 
 given to us. 
 
 3340. Have there been any earthworks thrown 
 up ? — None whate^■cr. 
 
 3341. Merely a platform ?— Merely a platform ; 
 we had the mound levelled, and the platform laid 
 on it. 
 
 3342. When your men go to gun practice at the 
 battery ou the seacoast, how do they go ; do they 
 march ? — Yes, generally. 
 
 3343. They never go by railway ? — There is no 
 railway communication ; they march through the 
 sand hills ; or some of tliem may take their own 
 conveyances. 
 
 3344. What class of men are enrolled in Sandwich? 
 
 We have various classes ; we have some medical 
 
 men, some lawyers, farmers, men in business, trades- 
 people, and apprentices. 
 
 3345. Do none of the seafaring population join 
 yon 7- There are very few of that class at Sand- 
 wich. 
 
 3346. Have you any men from Deal or Walmer ? — 
 That is entirely another district ; there is a large 
 seafaring population there. 
 
 3347. But that is rather out of your district for 
 recruiting ? — Yes, there is another corps there, and 
 
 also a rifle corjis ; but I think the latter is falling to 
 ground. 
 
 3348. In the event of that rifle corps breaking uji, 
 do you think that the men would join the artillery 
 corps ? — Ultimately they may, but not at present ; 
 there would be a sort of feeling that they were 
 deserting from the rifles to the artillery. 
 
 3349. Are your men clothed by the funds of the 
 corps at Sandwich ? — Yes ; some partly, and some 
 altogether. 
 
 3350. What proportion of them should you say are 
 so clothed ? — From one-half to two-thirds. 
 
 3351. Two-thirds are clothed by the funds of the 
 corps ? — No ; I should say half altogether, and 
 another portion partially finding their own belts ; 
 one third clothing themselves entirely. 
 
 3352. ( Chairman.') Have you a good many honorary 
 members belonging to your corps ? — Yes. 
 
 3353. And subscribers ?— Yes. 
 
 3354. Have you subscriptions ? — Yes ; the hono- 
 rary members pay a guinea a year, which goes 
 towards oiu' fund. 
 
 3355. {Viscount Hardinge.) Do you apprehend 
 Ihat your present subscriptions from the honorary 
 ineiubers will fall off? — I do not think that the sub- 
 scriptions will fall off. I am afraid we have got in 
 all the donations. 
 
 3356. {Chairman.) I perceive that the officers of 
 tlie corps subscribe very largely ? — I think they do ; 
 but they are not called upon for many other expenses. 
 
 3357' ( Viscount Hardinge.) Have you been formed 
 into a brigade ? — No. 
 
 3358. {Lord Overstotie.) Do you consider your 
 corps to be at this moment in a state efficient for 
 actual service ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 3359. In case of a sudden emergency arising, do 
 you feel confident that your men could render real 
 and valuable assistance ? — Yes, I certainly think they 
 could. If they had repository drill more so, as 
 I think that their services would be as much re- 
 quired to mount the guns in the different batteries as 
 to work them. 
 
 3360. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) What expenses do the 
 poorest men in your corps feel to be the heaviest, 
 and complain of the tnost ? — I think they most feel 
 the expenses of moving about to their different 
 meetings. 
 
 3361. {Chairman.) I perceive by the account you 
 have handed in, that you have a balance in hand ? — 
 Yes, we have funds in hand ; but we have had our 
 uniforms now for two years, and we must look forward 
 to renewing them in another two j-ears. 
 
 3362. The other expense to which the individual 
 members of your corps are put, is 10s. 6d. entrance 
 fee ? — Yes. 
 
 3363. Do you not call upon them for any annual 
 subscription ? — Yes, there is an annual subscription 
 of \0s. 6d , and most of them pay their travelling 
 expenses. 
 
 3364. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) What rate of wages do 
 you think the poorest class of your corps receive ? — 
 We have some apprentices, and I think that they feel 
 the expense the most ; most of the rest are tradesmen; 
 I cannot tell exactly what their means may be. 
 
 . The witness withdrew. 
 
 Maj. Harconrt. 
 
 Major Edwaed W. V. Veexon Hakcourt examined. 
 
 3365. {Chairman.) Have you been in commu- 
 nication with tlie Admiralty in reference to the 
 questions which you have put to the last witness ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3366. Have you received any answer from the 
 Board of Admiralty upon that subject ? — I wish a 
 little to explain the reasons that I had for putting 
 the questions that I did to sever.al witnesses beloiig- 
 in"- to the artillery force, and with that object I wish 
 10 hand in this letter. 
 
 The same was handed in as follows : 
 " 4 Cinque Ports Artillery." 
 " Sir, " War Office, Nov. 7, 1861. 
 
 " WiTU reference to your letter of the II th 
 ultimo, a copy of which was forw.arded in a com- 
 munication addressed from this office to the Secretary 
 to tlie Admiralty, I am directed by Secretary^ Sir 
 Georo-c Lewis to inform you that the Lords Com- 
 missioners of the Admiralty have intimated that
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 141 
 
 they will be gLad to appropriate occasionally one of 
 Her Majesty's ships to the service of drillinti the 
 corps under your command when a vessel can be 
 spared for the purpose, but that at jiresent there is 
 no vessel availalile, and the great demand for ships 
 to drill the Royal Naval Reserve force, and the Royal 
 Naval Coast Volunteei's precludes them from leading 
 you to expect an early compliance with your wishes. 
 I am to request that you will state whether, under 
 these circumstances, you are disposed to jiroceed 
 with your scheme for the formation of an artillery 
 
 24 June 1802 
 
 volunteer corps of a new description, provided that ^faj. Haicoun 
 the other jiroposals cor.taincd in your letter of the 
 1 1th ultimo meet with the ap[)roval of Her Majesty's 
 Government. 
 
 "I have, &c. 
 (Signed) " Geokge Eisskine, 
 
 Colonel. 
 " To Officer commanding 
 " 4 Cin(pie Ports Artillery 
 " Volunteer Corps, Hastings." 
 
 Captain Henry Thomas Laye examined. 
 
 3367. (Chairman.) Do you command the 3rd 
 North Riding Artillery Volunteer Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 3368. Where are your head-quarters ? — At Scar- 
 borough. 
 
 3369. Of what does it consist ? — Of one battery. 
 
 3370. How many men? — 80 is our full compliment. 
 
 3371. Do you form part of a brigade, or are you 
 a single battery ? — We are part of a brigade. We 
 are brigaded with the East York. 
 
 3372. Are there any batteries belonging to the 
 Royal Artillery at which your men are drilled, or 
 have you your own guns ? — We have our own guns ; 
 we formed a battery in one of the old places at the 
 castle, which we did at a small expense, and then we 
 were supplied with guns. 
 
 3373. Have you found garrison guns there ? — Yes ; 
 two 32-pounders, 49 cwt. guns. 
 
 3374. Are j'our drills regularly carried on there ? 
 — Yes ; our gun drills. 
 
 3375. 1 presume the men have carbines ? — Yes. 
 
 3376. Have you also small arm drills ? — Yes ; 
 when it is wet we drill in the town hall, and when 
 it is fine we go into the castle yard. The War OHice 
 has given me the privilege of going in there, and also 
 of excluding the puljlic if necessary. 
 
 3377. Is your battery supported by any fund raised 
 in the neighbourhood ? — Yes. 
 
 3378. Do the men annually subscribe any sum ? — ■ 
 Yes ; 10s. each. 
 
 3379. Do the officers subscribe more than the men ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 3380. Is that fund applied for the purpose of 
 clothing the men ? — No. 
 
 3381. In what way is that money expended ? — 
 There are various things. I can hardly tell you, the 
 carriage of ammunition ; and we provide ammunition 
 for shooting for prizes. The Commission sent ques- 
 tions to me, and I sent our balance sheet. I thought 
 that was the simplest way of seeing how the money 
 was spent. 
 
 3382. Do the men clothe themselves ? — Yes ; we 
 had a few, I think about 10 or 12, whom we have 
 half clothed. 
 
 3383. To what class do your men belong ? — They 
 are artificers, Ijuilders, and architects. I have several 
 men in my battery worth 5,000/. or 6,000/. a piece. 
 
 3384. They are men of a sufficiently independent 
 class to clothe themselves ? — Yes ; it costs them 5/. 
 each. 
 
 3385. When the clothing requires renewal, do you 
 anticipate any difSeulty in i-enewing it? — I think not. 
 
 3386. Do you think that you will require any as- 
 sistance from the pulilic to enaltle you to maintain 
 your corps in an efficient state ? — It would bo a great 
 assistance to us if we had money ; I have to beg for 
 money, or I find it myself at present. 
 
 3387. Do you think that your corps will fail alto- 
 gether if 3'ou do not receive assistance from the Go- 
 vernment ? — I support my corps by the honorary 
 members, and, of course, those are liable to fluctuation. 
 
 3388. {Major Harcourf.) Have you any rifle volun- 
 teers in your district ? — Yes. 
 
 3389. Does the recruiting for the one arm interfere 
 with the recruiting for the other ? — I think not ; 
 indeed the rifles were established before my corps 
 was formed ; they had a bazaar, and brought in 
 a number of people who, I think, would have been 
 
 perhaps better in the militia, and that has caused a 
 little dissatisfaction among some of them, liut it 
 makes my corps the more popular having to pay 
 a little. 
 
 3390. Do you find any difficulty in getting your 
 men to drill ? — No. 
 
 3391. What number of drills have you in the course 
 of a month ? — We have two every week rcguliirly, 
 and then there is a recruit drill besides ; but I have 
 men in my corps who, in the course of a year, have 
 attended, to speak within Ijounds, 170 drills, and I 
 have been astonished at their zeal. 
 
 3392. What kind of drill do you have ? — Both car- 
 bine drill and the big gun drill. 
 
 3393. Do the men attach much importance to the 
 carbine ? — Yes, we could not do without it ; in the 
 first place it teaches them to shoot and to use the 
 sight, then I think it is an amusement, they march, 
 and with our busbies we cut quite a figure. 
 
 3394. But do you consider it is of any assistance to 
 them as artillerymen ? — It makes the corps popidar. 
 
 3395. Have you ever had any battalion drill ? — Yes. 
 
 3396. Do you attach much importance to that ? — 
 The greatest ; but the dilficulty is we want money to 
 move. 
 
 3397. Have you any organized association for prize 
 firing with great guns in your district ? — No, v/e de- 
 vote the money that we get to prizes. 
 
 3398. For carbines ? — We give prizes for both if 
 we can. 
 
 3399. Have you prize firing with the great guns ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 3400. You say that you have 32-pounders ? — Yes. 
 
 3401. How many drills per annum do you think a 
 gunner should attend to entitle him to be considered 
 an effective ? — I think we want a few more than 24. 
 
 3402. How are your non-commissioned officers 
 selected ? — That is a difficult question, in the first 
 instance I selected them, and I endeavoured as much 
 as possible, to hold that power in my ovrn hands, but 
 still you must have a certain amount of pojiularity in 
 bringing in a man, you would have a difficulty, for 
 example, in making ayoung recruit a boml tardier before 
 an older man who had been in the corps a long time. 
 
 3403. I presume you consult the feelings of the 
 corps as well as look to the efficiency of the man ? — 
 Yes, I endeavour to manage that, but it requires the 
 greatest tact to get the non-commissioned officers 
 right. 
 
 3404. I believe you are in the royal navy ?— Yes. 
 
 3405. Have any of your officers besides yourself 
 received any instruction or been attached to the royal 
 artillery ? — No. 
 
 3406. Are they in your opinion competent officers ? 
 — Yes, mine have only been a short time appointed, 
 but they have been most zealous in attending drill. 
 
 3407. Do your officers receive any instruction from 
 the adjutant of your brigade ? — We have a master 
 gunner, who is drill instructor, and he is quite a better 
 sort of man ; wo have also an adjutant, and he is 
 very willing to give us instruction, but the master 
 gunner is the person who has* drilled my corps. 
 
 3408. I suppose you give them considerable in- 
 struction yourself? — The gun drill is diffc'reut ; the 
 shore drill and the ship diill. 
 
 3409. At what distance is tiie magazine from the 
 battery at which you practice ? — 500 yards. I have 
 
 T 3
 
 142 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 had a moving magazine built, in which I bring the 
 cartridges. 
 
 3410. At what cost was that constructed ? — 
 About 11. lOs. 
 
 3411. Have you been put to any expense for the 
 conveyance of stores ? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 3412. Were you not aware that that is an expense 
 to be borne by the War Oflice ? — Yes, but still we 
 are put to expense. 
 
 3413. What have you paid for the carriage of 
 stores ? — I cannot tell you without the accounts. 
 
 3414. Have you been put to any expense which 
 has not been paid for you ? — Yes. 
 
 3415. Have you iu charge any great amount of 
 Government stores ? — Only our own for the battery. 
 
 3416. Are you put to any expense in storing them ? 
 Yes, it costs us money ; we had this storehouse to 
 build where we keep our side arms, and the other 
 stores belonging to the guns. 
 
 3417. {Col. MacMurdo.) Is there not a side arm 
 shed built by the Government ? — Not for us ; it cost 
 us, I think, 111. 
 
 3418. {Major Harcourt.) Have any of your men 
 been through any course of repository drill ? — Yes ; 
 they all go through the fuse drill. 
 
 3419. And for shifting, mounting, and dismount- 
 ing guns ? — I think not ; we mount our own guns ; 
 we have got a gyn to do that. 
 
 3420. Have you any guns on travelling carriages ? 
 — No ; not belonging to us. 
 
 3421. If it were necessary to move guns, have you 
 any organized method of moving them by horses ?- — 
 No. 
 
 3422. Would it be possible do you think to esta- 
 blish such a system among the farmers in the district ? 
 • — I do not know that they would volunteer the use 
 of their horses ; it would depend, I think, upon how 
 the land owners influenced their tenants. 
 
 3423. If facilities were afforded by the Admiralty to 
 any members of volunteer corps, for obtaining a 
 knowledge of gun drill on board ship, would any of 
 your men be likely to avail themselves of such 
 facilities ? — I asked my men on parade about that ; 
 there were 27 present on the occasion, and six or 
 seven of those men said that they would learn the drill 
 in a gun-boat. 
 
 3424. Do you consider that your corps is financially 
 in a healthy condition ? — Yes ; we have money in 
 the bank. 
 
 3425. I think you stated that you did not consider 
 Government aid necessary to insure its permanence ? 
 — If we could have 1/. a man it would set us up well. 
 
 3426. Is that the form in which you would prefer 
 Government aid to be given ? — Yes ; and the com- 
 manding officer to use it to the best of his judgment. 
 I have a committee formed of the men ; they choose 
 the committee, and I never do anything of any 
 moment without consulting them ; but then I always 
 
 manage to guide the committee my own way ; it is all 
 management. 
 
 3427. Why should you prefer receiving Govern- 
 ment aid in the shape of money ? — Because we could 
 do as we liked with it, and apply it where most 
 wanted. 
 
 3428. You have a floating target at the expense of 
 the Government, have you not ? — Yes ; we are 
 supplied with a floating target, but we have to find a 
 boat, and it costs us \0s. every time wo fire at that 
 target, for a boat to go out ; we must have a range 
 party, and we are not paid for that. 
 
 3429. Supposing you were supplied with the diffe- 
 rent things of which you think you stand in need, on 
 the terms upon which you are supplied with the 
 floating target, would that satisfy you, supposing that 
 a Government specification was issued, and you were 
 bound not to exceed a certain estimate, and the 
 Government refunded the money expended ? — I would 
 rather have the sovereign ; remember the letters there 
 would be to write. 
 
 3430. {Col. Mae3Iurdo.) You mentioned just now 
 that you had a side-arm shed, which was provided by 
 the corps ; if you refer to appendix B. in the code of 
 regulations you will find this paragraph, " Where no 
 " other convenient place for the side-arms can be 
 " procured, a small box shed, not less than 12 feet 
 " long, with a row of pegs for the rammers, &c., as 
 " shown on shed C, may be provided, or a larger 
 " shed, also of wood, with two rows of pegs and 
 " space for tackle or other stores." Perhaps you 
 were not aware of that ? — No ; one of the men in 
 my corps is a builder, and a very zealous man ; and 
 there are a number of carpenters in the corps ; and 
 with the aid of these men we built it at prime cost. 
 
 3431. {Major- Gen. Eyre.) What are the daily 
 wages of the poorest men in your corps ? — I have 
 one or two jet turners in my corps, and I think they 
 would receive, perhaps. As. a day. 
 
 3432. Are they valuable men ? — Yes. 
 
 3433. Are you desirous that they should remain 
 with you ? — Yes. 
 
 3434. What expense do you think those men feel 
 the most ? — They feel most providing their clothing ; 
 it costs every one of my men 5/. 
 
 3435. How long does the clothing last ? — We 
 bought the best. I advised them to have the best 
 strong cloth. 
 
 3436. How long will it last ? — We have had it a 
 year already, iind it looks very nice ; a coat after a 
 year's wear begins to look seedy ; but we have got 
 good stuff. 
 
 3437. Does that include the busby and accoutre- 
 ments ? — Yes. 
 
 3438. The busby will last more than a year, I 
 suppose ? — Yes ; we found the belts also, and they 
 last for a long time. I think the busby might last 
 for 10 years. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned till Friday next at half-past Twelve o'clock. 
 
 Friday, 27th June 1862. 
 
 PRESENT ; 
 
 Viscount EVERSLET. 
 
 Viscount Hakdinge. 
 Lord Elcho. 
 Lord Overstone. 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. A. Wetherall. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 Major Harcourt. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chair. 
 Major Thomas Brooks examined. 
 
 ' . ' 3439. {Chnirman.') Yon are major of the 3rd Man- 
 
 June 181S. Chester Rifle Volunteer Corps ? — Ifes. 
 
 3440. What is the strength of your corps ? — We 
 
 are now 731. 
 
 3441. Is your corps composed of 10 companies ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3442. Is it a consolidated battalion ? — Yes. 
 
 3443. Do you hold the rank of major in the corps ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 3444. Of what class is your corps composed ? — 
 We have 347 artizans, principally consisting of 
 mechanics in the foundries, and men of that de-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 143 
 
 scription. We have also 21 labourers, 124 tradesmen, 
 62 clerks, and 77 gentlemen. 
 
 3445. Do you raise a subscription in your corps 
 from every man in it ? — Yes ; lOs. Gd. per man. 
 The colonel pays 75/., the major 50/., the captain 20/., 
 the lieutenant 10/., the ensign 5/., non-commissioned 
 officers 15*., privates 10s. 6d., and honorary members 
 one guinea. 
 
 3446. In what way is that fund expended ? — It is 
 expended in the expenses of the orderly room, the re- 
 clothing, the expenses of the drill grounds, and storage 
 for arms principally. 
 
 3447. Do you find that the fund is sufficient to 
 cover those expenses ? — Up to this time it has ; the 
 captains have paid very largely out of their own 
 purses. 
 
 3448. No part of the expenses of the band is 
 defi'ayed out of that fund ? — I am sorry to say that it 
 has been up to this time ; in the year of 1860 and 
 1861 we expended nearly 300/. on the band. 
 
 3449. How will the band be supported in future ? 
 — We have a special subscription for the band separate 
 from the regimental fund. 
 
 3450. How often have you battalion drills? — Every 
 fortnight in uniform ; we have two battalion drills 
 every week, on Wednesdays and Fridays out of 
 uniform, and every other Saturday we have a general 
 battalion drill in uniform. 
 
 3451. And company drills besides ? — At present 
 not ; we find that we get an equally good muster at 
 the battalion drills out of uniform, and we do not get 
 more men go to drill at battalion drills than in the 
 separate companies. 
 
 3452. All the recruits, I presume, have a certain 
 amount of preparatory drill before they join in the 
 battalion drills ? — Yes, they assemble every Monday 
 morning ; but they do not join in the battiilion drills 
 until they have had a month's preliminary drill, and 
 have been passed by the serjeant-major. 
 
 3453. Is your corps increasing or diminishing in 
 nnmber ? — We have decreased 58 men this year, 
 owing entirely to their being unable to pay their sub- 
 scriptions ; we have at present great distress in 
 Lancashire ; they would otherwise be very willing to 
 come. They are still good volunteers, but they could 
 not pay the subscriptions which before they did, and 
 we cannot keep up the battalion without. 
 
 3454. Do you attribute the failure of the sub- 
 scriptions to the distress which prevails in Lancashire ? 
 — Partly so. 
 
 3455. Do you think that in good times there would 
 be any difficulty in maintaining the force at its present 
 strength? — I am afraid that the subscription of lOs. 6d. 
 is too high for them ; the majority of our men receive 
 upon the average 1/. a week wages, and they have 
 their ftimilies to keep ; and it is rather hard upon 
 them to have to pay the 10*. 6d. and other expenses 
 at all the reviews ; up to this time they have paid 
 their own expenses. 
 
 3456. Has your corps a rifle range ? — Yes, of 900 
 yards, at Barton Moss, about eight miles from Man- 
 chester. 
 
 3457. Is there railway communication to tliat rifle 
 range ? — Yes ; and the railway company takes us 
 there and back for 6d., all of which money is paid by 
 the men themselves, with the exception of the 
 markers, and that is paid out the regimental fund. 
 
 3458. Have all your men passed through a course 
 of musketry instruction ? — Yes, all of them ; we took 
 600 men through nearly the whole of the three 
 periods last year. 
 
 3459. Have you a regular inspection of accounts in 
 your corps ? — I myself inspect them twice every 
 year, the colonel inspects them once every year, and 
 the captains of the companies every month and send 
 in a report. 
 
 3460. Are the arms iu good condition ? — Yes, they 
 are ; allowing for fair wear and tear, almost as ser- 
 viceable as when we first had them. 
 
 3461. Are they generally kept liy the men, or have 
 you an armoury ? — We found it very inconveuient to 
 
 insist upon their being taken into store after every 
 drill, and therefore on certain conditions we allow 
 the men to take them home. 
 
 3462. Do you find that the men take good care of 
 their arms? — I think tjiat we have certainly not had a 
 dozen cases in which they were i'ound to be in a liad 
 state. 
 
 3463. ( Viscoimt Hardiiigr. ) Do you give the men 
 a written permission to take them home ? — Yes. 
 
 3464. {Chairman.) What are your average mus- 
 ters at battalion drills ? — To give you an example of 
 coming out of uniform, when the men would be hardly 
 supposed to come, they have come so well that in the 
 last three or four battalion drills we have had an 
 average number of from 250 to 300 out of 731, that 
 is, on the week days ; on the Saturday battalion drill, 
 when they come in unilbrm, they march tlirough the 
 town with the band, and we have from 550 to 600 ; 
 we average 500 men. 
 
 3465. i suppose in the course of a year every man 
 passes through several battalion drills ? — Every man 
 must make himself effiictive, or he must leave the 
 regiment. 
 
 3466. {Sir A. Campbell.) What number of your 
 men have passed through the remainder of the course; 
 take the last year for example ? — I should say that 
 600 of them went through nearly the whole, if not 
 the whole portion of it ; we have had great difficul- 
 ties in getting the men to pass through all the periods 
 regularly, because it will happen with the casuals 
 that a man will go down once upon a Saturday and 
 fire away his ten rounds, and then perhaps we do not 
 see him again for months. 
 
 3467. As a casual he would get through his 10 
 rounds ? — Yes ; 600 have passed through a portion 
 of the musketry instruction. 
 
 3468. The whole of the musketry instruction and 
 a portion of the pr.ictice ? — The whole of their mus- 
 ketry instruction, and a portion of their practice ; 
 about 250 or 300 have passed through the whole of 
 the musketry instruction, and the whole of the prac- 
 tice. I must except the judging distance drill, which 
 they have not been able to do at all. 
 
 3469. {Lieut-Col. Barttclof.) How are your officers 
 appointed ? — They were appointed first of all by 
 names being sent to Colonel Egerton. 
 
 3470. Who recommended the names to him ? — In 
 the first instance there was hardly any recommenda- 
 tion ; we met together, and as I may say organized the 
 regiment. 
 
 3471. Were your officers elected or selected by the 
 commanding officer ? — Hardly ; a certain number of 
 gentlemen met together to organize the regiment, and 
 they took upon themselves the organization of certain 
 companies, and names were sent into the colonel 
 through the major, and he approved of them ; the 
 whole of the names are sent to the ordei'ly room 
 through me, and I inquire whether they are properly 
 qualified persons, and send the names to the colonel 
 with a report. I am responsible to the colonel that 
 they are proper and fit persons. 
 
 3472. Who appoints the non-commissioned officers ? 
 — The captains of the companies. 
 
 3473. Irrespective of the commanding officer ? — 
 No ; it is always with the consent of the commanding 
 officer for the time lieing. 
 
 3474. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Is it your opinion 
 that your regiment cannot remain long in its present 
 efficient state without further aid from the Govern- 
 ment ? — Apart from the question of the clothing, I 
 believe that we could maintain eight companies at pre- 
 sent ; the officers would certainly have to make a great 
 sacrifice, but I believe that we could maintain a 
 battalion ofeight companies irrespective of the clothing. 
 
 3475. Would you recommend that assistance should 
 be given to the battalion in the shape of clothing ? — 
 Not in kind. 
 
 3476. What way do you mean ? — I should prefer 
 the assistance being given in money for clothing, 
 rather than the clothing itself being given. 
 
 3477. How would you propose that that money 
 
 T 4 
 
 Maj. 
 T. Brooks. 
 
 7 June 18C2.
 
 144 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. 
 27 June 18G2. 
 
 grant should be calculated, at so much per head ? — 
 Yes ; so much per head foi- every effective man. 
 
 3478. To be placed in the hands of the eom- 
 niandiiip; officer, and spent at his discretion ? — Yes ; 
 he being responsible to the War Office. 
 
 3479. Would you tie film down to spending it upon 
 clothing, or would you permit him to spend it in 
 other ways, with a view to defraying your regimental 
 expenses ? — To defray all the regimental expenses. 
 
 3480. In his option ? — Yes ; at his discretion. 
 
 3481. What security would the Govcrument have if 
 such a proceeding were to take place, that this money 
 might not be spent on bands and other expenses, 
 •which might not be strictly regimental expenses, 
 such as armouries, targets, and ranges ?— I am hardly 
 able to give an opinion upon that, but I think that 
 an order from the War Office to the effect that it 
 must not be spent upon bands or going to reviews 
 would prevent his doing so. 
 
 3482. Would it not equally answer your purpose 
 if the commanding officer of the regiment were to 
 send in to the War Office an estimate with certain 
 heads under which the money should be granted ? — 
 That would answer our purpose equally well, speaking 
 of my ov/n battalion. 
 
 3483. You would be equally satisfied with respect 
 to your own battalion ? — Certainly. 
 
 3484. {Sir A. Campbell.) Would you be equally 
 satisfied to receive assistance in articles instead of 
 money ; for instance, that you should be provided 
 with an armoury, and a range, and so forth ? — 
 Equally so. 
 
 3485. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Would you be equally 
 satisfied if the Government were to issue to you so 
 many yards of cloth per man to be made up by your 
 own tailors ? — Do you mean that we should have the 
 expense of making them ? 
 
 3486. Yes ? — It certainly would not be so satis- 
 factory as if we had the clothes given to us ready 
 made. 
 
 3487. Would you approve of complete suits of 
 clothing being sent down to you from the Govern- 
 ment stores ? — Hardly ; I think that many members 
 of the corps would not like putting on such clothes ; 
 iu my own battalion we should not mind, as the mem- 
 bers consist of artizans, and the men would not object; 
 but there are many other battalions consisting almost 
 entirely of gentlemen. 
 
 3488. Supposing you had a money grant to expend 
 at your own discretion, and you thouglit that the best 
 ■way would be in clothing the men, yon would have to 
 make a contract, would you not ? — Yes ; but each 
 man would be measured. 
 
 3489. In the case of the Government issuing so 
 many suits of clothing from the stores, the uniforms 
 ■would be fitted to the men, as they are now in many 
 regiments of the line, the cloth being equally good, 
 and perhaps better than you would get from your own 
 contractor ? — Yes. 
 
 3490. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you think that if 
 uniforms were given out by the Government, or 
 obtained by contract with money pi'ovided by the 
 Government, you would have any difficulty in in- 
 ducing a man to wear a uniform that was the property 
 of a retired member ? — We have done that e\ery 
 day. 
 
 3491. Wonld there be any difficulty of that kind, 
 do you think, in the other battalions ? — Yes, great 
 difficulty. 
 
 3492. Are those other battalions in the same 
 financial difficulties as your own ? — Not quite, and for 
 this reason, that their members, consisting principally 
 of gentlemen, can make greater efforts than we can. 
 In case of a financial crisis they would make a call 
 upon eveiy member, who would respond to it ; but 
 we could not do that. 
 
 3493. Does your evidence go to this, that there are 
 some volunteer corps in which the men cannot aflbrd 
 to clothe themselves, but they would be willing to 
 accept uniforms if issued by the Government ; wliile 
 there are others in which they would not consent to 
 
 receive such uniforms, as they could afford to clothe 
 themselves ? — Exactly so. 
 
 3594. {Lord Overstone.) Beyond your experience 
 and knowledge in detail of the condition of your own 
 corps, have you a general knowledge of the condition 
 of the volunteer movement in South Lancashire ? — I 
 have. 
 
 3595. Is it your opinion that that movement is sub- 
 ject to any serious danger as to its present condition ? 
 — It is not ; I believe that the movement is rather 
 increasing than decreasing in South Lancashire. We 
 can get now a better class of recruit than we could 
 a year ago among the artizans, whereas a year ago I 
 could get a common man as an artizan, now I can get 
 a foreman. 
 
 3596. The first object to ■which this Commission is 
 instructed to direct its attention, is the present con- 
 dition of the volunteer force. As far as your know- 
 ledge and experience go, you can say tliat you think 
 that condition is satisfactory ? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 3597. The three main points which affect the con- 
 dition of the volunteer force must of course be the 
 pecuniary considerations, the discipline and organiza- 
 tion of the corps, and, thirdly, the condition of their 
 arms and accoutrements. How far do you think you 
 can say that the volunteer force is now in a satisfactory 
 condition with regard to those three heads ? — As to 
 the financial part of the question, I do not think that 
 they arc in a satisfactory condition. 
 
 3598. Do you think that the pecuniary pressure 
 upon the artizan class in your corps, threatens consi- 
 derable danger to the maintenance and efficiency of 
 the corps ? — I do. 
 
 3599. Do you think that that danger may be mate- 
 rially relieved or alleviated by pecuniary aid from the 
 Government ? — I do. 
 
 3600. With regard to discipline and organization, 
 do you consider that the corps is now in a satisfac- 
 torj' state ? — I do ; I consider it in a highly satisfactory 
 state. 
 
 3601. I understand you to say, also, as to the 
 condition of their arms and accoutrements, that you 
 feel confident they are in a satisfactory state ? — I feel 
 every confidence. 
 
 3602. Supposing that South Lancashire was sud- 
 denly menaced liy the approach of a foreign force, 
 say in the neighbourhood of Liverpool, do you think 
 that your corps could turn out in a state capable of 
 rendering real and effectual assistance to the regular 
 army ? — I do. 
 
 3603. Do you think that it would turn out, under 
 such circumstances, without hesitation ? — I feel con- 
 vinced of it. 
 
 3504. Do you think that, under such circum- 
 stances, there would be an increased and extended 
 disposition to enter the force ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 3505. Do you think that the men so brought into 
 the force, and amalgamated with the existing corps, 
 would be rapidly rendered efficient ? — I do. 
 
 3506. You think that the volunteer movement, as 
 it now exists, is a valuable nucleus for the further 
 augmentation of the force which would take place if 
 the danger of the emergencj' was sufficient to require 
 it ?— I do. 
 
 3507. With regard to the probable continuance of 
 the present volunteer movement at its existing 
 strength, am I correct in inferring it to be your 
 opinion that that strength can be efficiently main- 
 tained, and that, in a case of emergency, it would be 
 largely augmented ?• — -Yes ; that is my opinion. 
 
 3508. Do you think that the certainty of that 
 opinion may be increased by limited pecuniary aid on 
 the part of the Government ? — I do. 
 
 3509. Are you prepared to suggest to this Com- 
 mission any measures which you think might be 
 usefully adopted for the purpose of increasing the 
 efficiency of the volunteer force, and so enable it to 
 act as a valuable auxiliary to the regular army in a 
 case of emergency ? — With the exception of a grant 
 of money I am hardly prepared to say. 
 
 3510. Do you think that the volunteer movement is
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 ]ic 
 
 in a satififactory condition both as to its present 
 efficiency and its probable pernianeucy, reserving only 
 tlio oj)iniou wliicli yon luivc already K'vcn, that 
 some pecuniary aid to relieve tlie pressure on the 
 
 \f poorer classes of the volunteers should lie oldnined 
 
 ■ i'rom the Government ? — I do. 
 
 yjll. {Major-Gen. Ei/rc.) Were the men who 
 you say yon have lost in consei|uenee of their poverty 
 men whom you valued and desired to keep ? — Three 
 or four of them I personally knew, from their having 
 been privates in my company, and I slionhl have 
 very much liked to have kept them. 
 
 3512. It was simply their poverty that obliged 
 them to leave you ? — Yes, not ):)eing able to pay the 
 10*'. 6(1., and a few incidental expenses, such, for 
 instance, as the 6d. for the railway fare every time 
 they went down to shoot. 
 
 3513. Is there anything in particular that presses 
 upon them more tiian another, that you can meu- 
 tion ? — No, I think nothing more than the subscrip- 
 tion. 
 
 3514. (Jfajor Harcourt.) How many drills do 
 yon think it is necessary that a man should pass 
 through to render him effective ? — I think 24 are not 
 enough. 
 
 3515. ITow many should you consider sufficient ? — 
 We have 35. 
 
 3516. Do you think that that is the minimum 
 numlier of drills that a man should pass through ? — 
 It depends very much upon the man. 
 
 3517. {Viscount Hardhige.) What do you mean 
 Avlien you say yon have 35 drills ? — We return a man 
 as effective, but we do not consider him effective, or 
 able to undergo inspection, nor do we let him join the 
 battalion movements. 
 
 3518. {Lord Oversfone.) You think that 24 drills 
 will make a man technically effective, but that 35 are 
 recpiisite to make him efficient ? — Yes. 
 
 3519. {Sir A. CamphcU.) Do those 35 drills include 
 musketry instruction ? — No. 
 
 3520. Do you think that on the average 35 actual 
 drills are necessary to keep np the efficiency of a 
 uniu who has once passed through his drills ? — I 
 think so. 
 
 3521. {Lt.-Col. BarUclot.) Do you not think that 
 it would be a great hindrance to the movement in the 
 manufacturing districts if you said to a man that he 
 must pass through 35 drills in order to make him 
 efficient ? — We do not find it so. 
 
 3522. {Mscoiint Hnrdinge.) What proportion of 
 your corps have gone through a course of 35 drills ? — 
 More than two-thirds of them np to this time who 
 have joined. 
 
 3523. Have you been obliged to strike many meu 
 off your list in consequence of their not having com- 
 pleted their 24 days' drill ? — No, I do not know a 
 case. I might mention in illustration of that, that 
 only a week or two ago a company sent in a requisi- 
 tion to be allowed to attend eight consecutive drills in 
 order to learn light infantry movements, and out of a 
 company of 62 we never have less than 59 to attend 
 those drills. 
 
 3524. That being the satisfactory state in which 
 your corps is, do you consider that other corps are in 
 a similar condition, generally speaking, as to their 
 attendance at drill ? — Many that I can mention are ; 
 there is one at Bury which is in an equally efficient 
 state. 
 
 3525. {Lord Oiwrstnnc.) You have had alumdant 
 means of becoming well ac(piaiuted with the state 
 and feelings of the artizan class throughout >South 
 Lancashire ? — Yes. 
 
 3526. Is it in your opiniou a inst and wise course 
 to draw the artizan class largely into the present 
 volunteer movement ? — I have up to this time seen 
 no objection to it. 
 
 3527. But looking forward, and guidhig yourself by 
 your knowledge of the state and character and feel- 
 ings of the artizan class in South Lancashire, do you 
 consider it expedient on the part of the Government 
 to draw largely upon that class to assist in the volun- 
 teer movement ? — I have never heard or seen any- 
 
 Mnj. 
 T. JBruoks. 
 
 thing to make me think thai they should not be drawn 
 tipou lai-gely. 
 
 3528. In case there was inunediate danger of 
 
 foreign invasion, what do you think would be the -' •^'""' '^''2. 
 etfi'ct upon the comlition of trade and all the com- 
 
 plicated machinery of the productive operations 
 throughout South Lancashiie of drawing fi-om it for 
 military purposes a considerable portion of the ar- 
 tizan class ? — I presume that in case of invasion, 
 business would be at an end. 
 
 3529. Do you give that answer after full considera- 
 tion ? Is it not i)robable that there might be a menac? 
 of danger to our shores of such an extent as to make 
 it necessary to call out the military resources of the 
 country, but at the .same time it would be very ex- 
 pedient and desirable that the ordinary processes of 
 society should not be violently or unnecessarily 
 disturbed ? — I believe that in case of a menace, were 
 the Government to call out my own battalion, more 
 than two-thirds of them would assemble. 
 
 3530. My question was not so much directed to the 
 question of whether the men would obey the call, but 
 what would be the effect on the productive industry 
 of South Lancashire of a large number of men being 
 drawn from the various occupations which arc there 
 in a state of great activity ? — In case of a menace 
 only ? 
 
 3531. I wish generally to obtain your opinion, after 
 a little consideration, as to what would be the practical 
 effect under a state of alarm for the safety of the 
 country, not carried to its last extremity, but as- 
 suming a serious aspect, which would lead the Govern- 
 ment to call forth all its military resources, and 
 amongst the rest the volunteer force, that volunteer 
 force consisting to a consideraljle extent of persons 
 engaged in the various industrial pursuits of South 
 Lancashire, and, therefore, necessarily draAvn away 
 from those pursuits to discharge a military duty ? — ^^I 
 should think that the masters and the inill owners 
 would permit their meu to go, and that they would 
 receive them Ijack again when they were no longer 
 wanted. 
 
 3532. In that case, how far do you thiidv that the 
 operations of the mills generally would be suspended 
 and thrown into confusion by drawing away a certain 
 
 and not an nnimi)ortant portion of their hands ? 
 
 Generally, I think the masters would not ojjpose it. 
 
 3533. Your opinion therefore is, that in case of an 
 adequate emergency, a large volunteer force, including 
 a considerable part of the artizan pojiulation might be 
 safely relied on for the discharge of their military 
 duties ? — Yes. 
 
 3534. Directing your attention to internal con- 
 siderations of this kind, are yon quite satisded as to 
 the prudence and safety of training a large portion of 
 the artizan class iu militarj' discipline and placing in 
 their hands arms ? — I am convinced that it would bo 
 quite prudent. 
 
 3535. Is that answer given with a full consideration 
 of times different from those- which now exist ; but 
 bearing in mind the state of things which has existed 
 
 in tbrmer times in the manufacturing districts ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3536. You, being interested largely in the peace 
 and good order of your district, feel no apprehension 
 as to the eft'ects of the volunteer movement from 
 teaching an important portion of the artizan class 
 military combinations and the use of military wea- 
 ]ions ? — Not the least. 
 
 3537. {Sir G. A. JVclhcrall.) Do you think that 
 the social habits and general conduct of the volunteers 
 have been improved by the volunteer organization, 
 and that there is now, in consequence of that, less 
 chance of those imeutts which formerly agitated the 
 country ? — I do ; it is so, invariably. 
 
 3538. {Major-Geii. Ei/re.) It has had a good moral 
 effect upon them ?— Very great indeed. 
 
 3539. (SirG.A. Wetherall.) Do you find that the 
 artizans are the most efficient men in your corps, and 
 
 that they attend more regularly to their drills V 
 
 Yes. 
 
 U
 
 14(1 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Maj. 
 T. Brooks. 
 
 27 June 1862. 
 
 3540. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do you consider that 
 you linve sufficient power to enforce discipline under 
 the rules ? — I think so. 
 
 3541. You have spoken of your corps as being in 
 an exceedingly satisfactory state, and you have also 
 some knowledge of the volunteers generally in that 
 part of England. Do you think that the same endea- 
 vour is made to maintain the efficiency of the corps 
 generally ? — Yes. 
 
 3542. I mean as to the musketry insti-uction ?— . 
 Yes ; but in South Lancashire we have experienced 
 great difficulties in getting the rifle ranges. Many 
 regiments last year could not go through the musketry 
 instruction for want of a range. 
 
 3543. I presume that you consider that practice of 
 the first importance? — Of the very first importance. 
 
 3544. {Major Harcourt.) How far is your range 
 from head-quarters ? — Eight miles ; but there is a 
 railway to it, aud the railway company takes them 
 for sixpence there and back. 
 
 3545. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) You have stated that 
 you have sufficient power to enforce discipline ; by 
 what code are you guided, is it a regimental code, or 
 simply this book ? — Simply that book. 
 
 3546. You find that that is sufficient ? — We find it 
 sufficient. 
 
 3547. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Do you think that the 
 enrolling of artizans has in anyway interfered with 
 the recruiting for the line or the militia ? — I do not 
 think it has at all interfered with the recruiting for 
 the line or the militia ; I think that the men we get 
 iu the volunteers would not be likely to enlist in 
 either. 
 
 3548. I suppose their wages are good ? — Their 
 position is better than that of the men who usually 
 enlist in the line or the militia. 
 
 3549. {Sir A. Campbell.) What number of volun- 
 teers do you think there are in Manchester ? — About 
 3,000. 
 
 3550. Of those, what proportion are artizans ? — 
 Perhaps 2,000 or more of them are artizans. 
 
 3551. {Viscount Ilardinr/e.) You stated, I think, 
 that your officers had had to make large contributions 
 in order to meet the expenses of the corps. Have 
 you found any difficulty in filling any vacancies 
 which may have occurred in consequence ? — We 
 have experienced a difficulty in this last year ; but 
 I should say that it is not entirely in consequence of 
 the subscriptions. , The subscription of the captain, 
 as I stated before, is but 20/. ; but the gentlemen 
 whom we wish to get as officers would not give them- 
 selves the trouble to attend the drills. 
 
 3552. {Sir G. A. Wetherall.) Do you consider 
 that your captains are competent to command their 
 companies ? — We endeavour to make them so, and 
 I think they are. 
 
 3553. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Have your officers 
 shown any dislike to military supervision, in the 
 common acceptation of the term ? — On the contrary, 
 I am convinced that the Lancashire volunteers would 
 prefer much to feel, if I may so say, the reins from 
 the War Office more than they have done yet. That 
 is a feeling which has been generally expressed ; we 
 have felt ourselves too much left alone. 
 
 3554. Then you would rather have more military 
 supervision than less ? — Certainly. 
 
 3555. {Col. MacMurdo.) Referring to that part of 
 your evidence which related to the probable effect 
 that the calling out of the volunteer force would have 
 upon trade, and the disinclination that the mill owners 
 would have to allow the men to go for any lengthened 
 period to be embodied, are you aware that the Act 
 only contemplates that the volunteers should be called 
 
 out for actual service in case of actual invasion, or the 
 appearance of an enemy iu force on the coast of Great 
 Britain ? — Yes. 
 
 3556. And therefore it is not probable that for any 
 lengthened period before sucli invasion took place the 
 volunteers would be called out for actual service ? — 
 No. 
 
 3557. That being so, the mill owners or any other 
 employers could not have any objection to the volun- 
 teers being enrolled as they are now enrolled in any 
 number for the purpose of being .drilled preparatory 
 to being called out ? — None whatever. 
 
 3558. And no stoppage of trade or manufactures 
 need necessarily take place ? — No, not at present. 
 
 3559. You are also probably aware that during 
 such a crisis the regular army and the militia would 
 be called out to form what may })e considered the first 
 Hue of defence, and that it would only be when an 
 actual invasion took place that the volunteers would 
 be called out ? — Yes. 
 
 3560. Do you not think that that arrangement 
 could be made without inconvenience to trade ? — 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 3561. {Sir A. Campbell.) Is there considerable 
 anxiety in your neighbourhood to know the course 
 which the Government intend to adopt in conse- 
 quence of the proceedings of this Commission ?— . 
 Very great anxiety indeed. 
 
 3562. Do you think it is important that that 
 anxiety should be allayed Avithout much delay, or 
 that time may be taken for consideration ? — I think 
 that time may be taken for consideration. 
 
 3563. {Lord Overstone.) What do you mean when 
 you say that there is very great anxiety upou the 
 subject; is it anything more thau that which would 
 naturally arise to know what may be the decision of 
 the Government, acting under the advice of the Com- 
 mission inquiring into this subject? — I think there 
 is a feeling that our corps cannot go on for another 
 year without being reclothed, and that is the question 
 perhaps more than any other that presses on com- 
 manding officers. 
 
 3564. You think that a decision as to the mode of 
 meeting the expenditure iu the next twelve months is 
 important ? — Yes. 
 
 3565. What do you think would be the effect of 
 nothins; beius; done ? — I am afraid we should lose a 
 great many more men. 
 
 3566. What do you mean by a great many ; what 
 proportion ? — I cannot give you the proportion. 
 
 3567. Do you think that there would be a loss arising 
 from a sense of disappointment and vexation, or a 
 real bona fide loss arising from pecuniary pressure ? — 
 A real bona fide loss arising from pecuniary pressure. 
 
 3568. ( Viscount Hardinge.) You have spoken 
 about military supervision. Can you suggest in any 
 way how any greater amount of military supervision 
 could be exercised over the volunteers ? — No, except 
 that I may say I have heard opinions once or twice 
 expressed to this effect, that they wished an order 
 would come down for us to assemble to be inspected, 
 the whole Manchester brigade, and not to be left to 
 ourselves to arrange our own battalion days. 
 
 3569. {Col. MacMurdo.) Is it your opinion that 
 such .an arrangement could be carried out ? — Cer- 
 tainly, by giving us, say, a week's notice. For in- 
 stance, if we knew that Colonel MacMurdo was 
 coming down ou Saturday week next, we should turn 
 out 2,000 men certainly, if not more. 
 
 3570. Would that be because you would like to be 
 inspected ? — Yes ; we wish to show you what we are 
 able to do. We wish it. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Lieut.- Col. 
 
 F W. Kniglit, 
 
 M.P. 
 
 Lieut.-Col. Fkederick Winn Knight, M*.P., examined, 
 the 
 
 3571. {Chairman.) I believe you command 
 1st Worcestershire Rifle Volunteers ? — I do. 
 
 3572. That is an administrative battalion, con- 
 sisting of 1 1 corps ?— Yes 
 
 3573. How many men have you ? — 936, the 
 establishment being 1100 ; there are about 85 men 
 per company. 
 
 3574. Have you a battalion fund as well aa a com-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 147 
 
 pany fund ? — We have no battalion fund, but we 
 have a share of a small county fund which was 
 established last year, and which amounts to 11/. a 
 company. 
 
 3575. Of what classes is your battalion composed 
 principally ? — It is composed of nil ciassos ; there arc 
 only two companies which are exclusively formed 
 of the middle class ; there may be (wo or three in 
 which the majority are workinn; men ; but in most 
 of the companies there are men standing; in the ranks 
 in quite an equal position to the oHieers as well as 
 working men. 
 
 3576. Did most of the men in your battalion clothe 
 themselves ? — When the volunteer movement was 
 first proposed in Worcestershire it broke down ; meet- 
 ings were called in the difterent towns by the deputy 
 lieutenants, and the terms proposed were that every 
 man was to clothe himself, but they failed ; in some 
 cases they got together 16 or 17 men, but they 
 failed in raising anj'thiug like a company. Mine 
 was the first company that was raised, and it was 
 raised on the principle that the clothes would be found 
 for every man who was accepted, and who did not 
 choose to clothe himself ; that was taken as the rule 
 in my part of the county, and I think in a good deal of 
 the rest of the county. Mine is a village corps ; all 
 the rest are town corps ; there is no small town in 
 Worcestershire without a corps, and they Were formed 
 chiefly on this principle ; a certain number of the 
 most wealthy and influential inhabitants, on both sides 
 of politics, formed themselves into a committee called 
 the organization committee ; they put their names 
 down for subscriptions, and they raised donations and 
 subscriptions in the neighljourhood ; the subscriptions 
 were all given for three years certain, so that each 
 district engaged to establish and keep a corps for 
 three years, and we said, " We shall see at the end of 
 " that time whether the country thinks us worth 
 " anything." There was, I should think, 400/. or 
 500/. raised in each corps for the first year, and in 
 some cases much more. The clothing, except for such 
 men as chose to clothe themselves, was provided out of 
 that fund. A great many men who could perhaps 
 have afforded to clothe themselves had clothing sup- 
 plied by the fund, and they might not have joined if it 
 had not been for that fund. 
 
 3577. When the time comes for reclothing the 
 men, do you anticipate that there will be much diffi- 
 culty? — I am quite sure, from what I know of them, that 
 they will not reclothe themselves ; they think that 
 the country ought to do it. I do not mean to say that 
 a certain number of the men would not do it, but I 
 mean that the companies cannot be kept up. 
 
 , 3578. You do not anticipate that any subscriptions 
 will be raised in the future, such as were raised 
 before in order to establish the corps ? — There was 
 great alarm felt at that time ; people thought that their 
 property was not secure from invasion, and many 
 rich people were willing to subscribe at that moment ; 
 but they feel, I believe, now much greater security, 
 (perhaps partly on account of the volunteer move- 
 ment,) and 1 am sure that we shall not get the sub- 
 scriptions again ; besides which, Goverimient aid has 
 been so much talked about, and is so absolutely 
 expected, that 1 am sure people will say, they have 
 done enough for the country individually. There will 
 have been spent in the three years at least 1,000/. 
 from each district for each company, taking the rifle 
 ranges, the uniforms, &c., altogether. 
 
 3579. Has each company its own rifle range ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3580. And a drill serjeant? — Each company has a 
 drill instructor. 
 
 3581. Have you an adjutant ? — Yes. 
 
 3582. Do you pay him anything beyond his ordinary 
 pay ? — He was an officer whom I was very anxious to 
 have ; he was particularly recommended by a dis- 
 tinguished officer under whom he had served ; he 
 was a young man who had been adjutant of two regi- 
 ments, and was very fit for the position. He would 
 not come to us at all for the first pay that was offered 
 
 by the War Office, aud I bad refusals from several 
 other men. 1 could have got abundancre of adjutants, 
 but not one who had a high character as the adjutant 
 of a regiment. This officer came to us upon an in- 
 crease of ))ay being given by the War (Jllice ; but 
 when he had been with us a year and a half, he said 
 he could not live on his pay, and nuist give it uj), 
 and go somewhere else. A meeting of officers was 
 held this spring, and we agreed to make liim an 
 allowance in these proportions : the field oflicers 101. 
 each, and 10/. from each of the coinii.anies, making 
 130/. a year more than his pay. This matter has been 
 very much discussed, and we think it very hard that 
 our adjutant's pay should be less than that of an adju- 
 tant in the disembodied militia. I think that there 
 is something like 70/. difference in their pay ; the 
 adjutant in the disembodied militia receives lodging 
 money, has a servant provided, and training allowance 
 of 3*. 9f/. a day while his regiment is in training. 
 There is another point with res|iect to our adjutant. 
 I think he ought to have a serjeant-major allowed 
 him. The militia adjutant only works one month in 
 the year, while our adjutant works almost every day 
 in the year. 1 may safely say that, because he writes 
 letters on Sundays, and sometimes comes to see me 
 on Sundays ; but he has no clerk, while the militia 
 adjutant has one or two, and aserjcant-m.^jor besides. 
 I think that all battalions of eight companies or more, 
 which are capable of being divided into two battalions 
 and of having two adjutants, should have a serjeant- 
 major. The adjutant is constantly wanted and written 
 to to visit two or more companies on the same day, 
 which he cannot do. A serjeant instructor of a com- 
 pany has no authority over the other companies if 
 appointed acting serjeant-major, and if the serjeant 
 instructor of company A were sent to company B, 
 they would be in arms in a moment ; you cannot make 
 him an acting serjeant-major excejit on field days ; 
 you cannot send him to do anything. It would be of 
 great assistance to an active adjutant to lun-e a ser- 
 jeant-major under him. When an order has to be 
 sent to the 11 companies, of course there are 11 
 sets of circulars to Ite written, and the adjutant 
 and his wife are constantly kept writing. He wants 
 a clerk, and the serjeant-major could perform the duties 
 of clerk, besides taking the adjutant's place at any 
 drill or practice where he might be wanted. 
 
 3583. Does the adjutant attend the drill of all the 
 companies separately ? — He is constantly at work ; 
 last year, during the summer, he saw five of the corps 
 once a week, three of them ho saw together every 
 week ; five of the corps once a fortnight, and one, 
 ■which was a long way oflT, without railway communi- 
 cation, he saw once a month. In the winter he saw 
 them not quite so often, but very frequently. Ho is 
 obliged to keep two horses to do his work. 
 
 3584. Has he satisfied himself that the men have 
 all gone through a proper course of musketry in- 
 struction ? — I wrote to him to ask him that (piestiou, 
 and whether all the corps had sent in nnisketry 
 returns, and he informs me that they di<l. bnt that 
 they varied very much in completeness. 
 
 3585. Do you ever inspect the arms of the regi- 
 ment ? — When I go to visit a company I do. 
 
 3586. You do that occasionally ? — Yes. 
 
 3587. Do you also inspect the arms ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3588. Are they all in good order ? — 1 have known 
 them sometimes in liad order, but that has been 
 when they have not had a serjeant instructor whose 
 business it is to keep the arms in order. 
 
 3589. Are the arms kept in an armom-y all together? 
 
 Yes, generall}''; in some of the com|)anies a portion 
 
 of the men are allowed to take their arms linnu", and 
 these are usually well tak<"n care of. When 1 have 
 found them not so well taken cilrc of, it has been 
 when there has been an armoury, aiul no serjeant 
 instructor in charge of it ; when they come in after 
 it has been raining, and there is no person whose 
 business it is to take care of them, they soon get into 
 bad order. 
 
 3590. What is the average attendance at battalion 
 
 U 2 
 
 Licut.-CoL 
 F. ir. Knight, 
 
 M.i: 
 
 27 June 1862
 
 148 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieui.-Col. 
 
 F. W. Kmyht, 
 
 M.P. 
 
 27 June 1SG2, 
 
 drills ? — Our battalion drills are generally wing drills, 
 or drills of two, or three, or four companies, and they 
 are generally well attended ; a company seldom comes 
 out with less than 40 men. 
 
 3591. Then you get about one half to attend ? — I 
 think, when I send for a battalion drill, we get more 
 than one half, or quite a half ; 1 think that generally 
 on equalizing them there arc from 20 to 25 tiles in a 
 company. 
 
 3592. You have nothing to do, I presume, with the 
 appointment of the oflicers to those companies ? — The 
 lord-lieutenant does not now recommend any officer 
 except through me. 
 
 3593. Do you satisfy yourself that the officer is com- 
 petent beforehand ? — I may say that I have not one 
 officer who has been in the army ; what I think the 
 most important point in forming these town com- 
 panies is, that the otHcers should be persons whom 
 the rest of the town will follow and like to serve 
 under ; I think that that is of much more importance 
 than any special qualification. At the first forming 
 a company in a little town there are, perhaps, not 
 more than two or three persons whom it would be 
 jiossible to choose as captains ; they must be men 
 with a consideral)le amount of energy and activity, 
 willing to attend to their duty, and such men as their 
 fellow townsmen will follow. The lord-lieutenant 
 made the appointment of captains generally on the 
 recommendation of the organization committees ; 
 after that he put the appointments of the other 
 officers in the captains' hands. In some cases the 
 men have had a choice, but not recognized by the 
 lord-iieutenant. There was a sort of feeling that 
 the head people in a town must be at the head of the 
 corps. I have known several instances of persons 
 who would not have been able, perhaps, to liave 
 formed a corps at first, having since been selected by 
 acclamation as captain, because they are now known 
 to be thoroughly good officers. 
 
 3594. Do you think upon the whole that the subal- 
 tern officers are competent to discharge their duties ? 
 — I think that many of them are now very competent. 
 I have seen a great difference in them this year ; 
 they have taken great pains with their duties, and 
 most of them attend their drills verj^ regularly. Some 
 are able to learn much more quickly than others. I 
 find with both officers and men that some of those 
 who take the most pains have less absolute capacity 
 to learn quickly ; but by taking pains they pick it up 
 after a time. 
 
 3595. You have stated in a former part of yoifr 
 evidence that you are of opinion there must be some 
 assistance given to the force to enable them to be 
 maintained in their present state of efficiency ? — Yes, 
 I am quite certain that it cannot go on much further 
 without. We onlj' decided upon establishing the corps 
 and carrying them on for three years, and these three 
 years will begin to run out next October. After that 
 I am sure that unless the country think them worth 
 something they will fall to pieces. 
 
 3596. In what way do you think that assistance 
 ought to be given ? — I think that there are three 
 heads under which it ought to be given ; the first 
 head is the increase of the efficienc}' of our permanent 
 staffi As I said before, the adjutant wants more pay, 
 and then, in large administrative battalions, a serjeant- 
 major is wanted. The second head comprises the 
 uniforms, which I divide into two parts ; the first 
 consists of that which is absolutely necessary for the 
 men to enable them to appear on parade, viz., tunic, 
 trousers, shako, cap, belts, and pouches ; after that 
 come leggings, great coat, havresack, or knapsack, 
 and these most of the men in my battalion have not 
 got. My notion is, that \1. a, head per annum would 
 enable us to provide the necessaries ; that is, the 
 tunic, the trousers, the shako, the cap, the belts, and 
 the pouches. I do not think that they can he provided 
 much under 3/. 10*. The difierence of cost between 
 the highest and the lowest priced outfits in my 
 battalion is quite ridiculous ; and I think that 3/. 10*. 
 is a very reasonable estimate. I find that in the 
 
 yeomanry the clothes are estimated to last seven 
 years ; I do not think that ours will last above half 
 that time, as we are out very much oftener than the 
 yeomanry are. I do not think that they will last 
 above three years, or three years and a half at most. 
 
 3597. How many drills do your men have in a 
 year ?— They are always drilling. I have received a 
 return from my own village company. I wrote to 
 them to know what drills they had this year, and I am 
 informed that, on the average, there has been 74 attend- 
 ances per week from the first week in January until 
 now ; each drill takes an hour, and they have all 
 sorts of drills ; bayonet exercise, and all the musketry 
 exercise comes into it. There are generally in every 
 company a few men of whom the captain complains 
 that they do not come to drill often enough ; but 
 they are often men who think that they know their 
 drill ; they know it very well last year, and there- 
 fore they will not give so much time to it now. 
 Some of the most constant attendants at drill last 
 year are some of those who are rather deficient this 
 ycTir. 
 
 3598. The established number of drills is 24 per 
 annum ? — Lord Elcho informs me that it is 18 ; but 
 as I understand the Act of Parliament it is 24. 
 
 3599. You were just now going to enumerate the 
 different items which you thought ought to be sup- 
 plied ? — The first head is the increase of strength in 
 the staft'; the second head is the uniform. A uniform, 
 without great coat, leggings, or havresack, might be 
 provided for 1/. a year. The third head embraces 
 another class of expenses — a sort of contingent ex- 
 penses that should be allowed for ; they are expenses 
 that must be paid by some one. I will read a list of 
 items which I have taken out of the accounts of the 
 different corps, and the Commission will determine 
 whether the officers or the country ought to pay 
 for them. I must premise that each item has to be 
 multiplied by 11 for the 11 companies. First, there 
 is the rent of headquarters or orderly room ; then the 
 rents of the armoury, drill ground, shed, or school 
 room for winter drill, and rifle range. Then there 
 are payments for targets, flags, hurdles. &c. Then 
 coal, gas, lighting and cleaning the rooms after 
 drilling ; repairs of imiforms ; serjeant armourer for 
 repairs of arms, and some one must be paid for 
 cleaning them; a bugler, — he is, generally speaking, 
 paid ; stationery, printing, books, postage, advertise- 
 ments, travelling and other expenses to brigade and 
 battalion field days, carriage of stores, parcels, itc. ;, 
 Grant's pontoon kettles, canteens, and expenses in- 
 curred for feeding the men on field days. AVe 
 generally feed them on the field ; that is an expense 
 which appears in some of the accounts, but not in all 
 of them. It occurs about four or five times a year, 
 on field days, when we are out the whole day. 
 
 3600. ( Viscount Hardhtgc.) How often can j-ou 
 get the men together in that way? — Four or five times 
 a year. Then there would be sundry payments for 
 stores of diflerent sorts. Petty cash disbursements, 
 and then extra pay for the adjutant, and extra pay 
 and allowances of different sorts for serjeant in- 
 structors. Some of these lune extra pay, as they 
 were engaged before. They were allowed pay by 
 the War Office ; at that time there Avas something 
 like 1,000 or 1,200 Serjeants wanting at once, and 
 they were not forthcoming. We were then oliliged 
 to give them extra pay, which we now continue if 
 they are good men. 
 
 3601. {Col. JIacuMi/rdo.) You do not give anything 
 to those whom you have received under the regu- 
 lations ? — We give uniforms extra to all those whom 
 we receive under the regulations ; and some men who 
 have served 18 or 19 years in the army come to us, 
 taking the pay allowed to them ; and then we make up 
 the amount of the pensions which they will have at 
 the end of their service to them until the pensions 
 become due; so that we have extra pay and allowances 
 to provide. 
 
 3602. ( Viscount Hardinge.) You have mentioned 
 stationery and advertisements, are they not paid for
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 U9 
 
 by the adjutant out of his allowance ? — No, I am not 
 sppakhig of thf" adjutant's stationery ; it is the com- 
 pany's stationery. There are also ])rizcs for company 
 shooting ; lliat the officers have to find. Ainonir those 
 items I include fecdiuc; the men on the liattaliou field 
 <hiys. An exceedingly good meal, witii beer, costs 
 about l.v. 6d. a man, and taking eaeli company to 
 consist of oO men, at four liattaliou drills, the sum 
 would amount to 15/. a eompany ])er year. All the 
 things I have named cannot lie done for less than 
 from SO/, to 100/. per company ; 1 think there ought 
 to be an allowance of 1/. a nuin for these exjienses. 
 
 3603. You would then allow 21. a man ? — Yes, and 
 I find that that is the new allowance ihade for the 
 dress and the contingent expenses of the yeomanry, 
 who havp not these 1 1 sets of miscellaneous payments 
 to provide for. We think (barring the pay, which 
 we do not any of us want,) that a company of rifle- 
 men costs quite as much as a troop of yeomanry ; and 
 we ho])e that we shall receive the same allowances 
 that the yeomanry receive. You nuiy depend uiion it 
 that clothing the men and finding all these ncci'ssary 
 expenses cannot be done for less ; it will cost that 
 much to somebody, and the only question is, how 
 much is to bo tlirown upon the ofHcers, and how nuicli 
 the (rovernment will take off their hands. 
 
 3604. {Chainnaii.) Your men do not provide 
 themselves with horses or appointments ? — No ; but 
 we have all the contingent e.xpenses 1 have named, 
 multiplied by 11, to be provided in lieu of the horses. 
 
 3605. I understand you to propose that there 
 should be an allowance of 21. per man to cover all 
 the expenses, excepting, of course, the baud ? — Yes ; 
 I have nothing to do with the band. I think that 
 the bandsmen's uniform ought to be p.nid for, if tiie 
 men are effectives, but uot otherwise. 
 
 3606. In addition to what is at present paid for 
 the staff of the corjis ? — Yes. 
 
 3607. ( Viscount Hardiiige.) Is the 15/. ])er company 
 for dinners which have been paid for by the captains 
 and subalterns of each company ? — I think that the 
 two companies which are entirely composed of 
 tradesmen or of middle- class men have paid for 
 themselves, all the others have been paid for by the 
 officers or out of the local fund. 
 
 3608. The expense of these dinners has not fallen 
 on the officers individually ? — In some cases it has 
 done so, and in some not ; in some cases it is charged 
 ill the accounts of the company, and in some cases it 
 is not charged. 
 
 3609. How was the liattaliou fund raised, and to 
 what purposes was it to be applied ? — It is not a 
 battalion fund, it is a county fund for the two 
 battalions, which was raised at a public meeting 
 called by the lord-lieutenant. It has been applied to 
 travelling expenses for field days. 
 
 3610. Do you think that your returns of eflective 
 and non-etloetive memljers are accurately kept ? — I 
 have not the least doubt of it ; I think tliat the cap- 
 tains are thoroughly to be trusted in that respect. 
 
 3611. You would not reduce the number of drills 
 that are required to make a man eflective ? — Wo 
 have no difficulty about effectives in my battalion ; 
 I wrote to my adjutant, to know how many drills he 
 thought necessary, and he says certainly not less than 
 24 for recruits, but he thinks that a man should learn 
 to march and to understand the manual and platoon 
 exercises before he comes in ; afterwards ho thinks 
 that not less than two drills per month in snuuner, 
 and one per month in winter, exclusive of musketiy 
 practice, should lie i-oquirod. 
 
 3612. That would be for the second year ?— Yes ; 
 and any subsequent year. 
 
 3613. {Sir A. Campbell.) Does that meiin exclu- 
 sive of musketry exercise as well as target practice ? 
 — I think it does. 
 
 3614. {Viscount Ilardiiigc.) In returning a man 
 otfective do you make musketry drill count ? — In 
 I'eturning a man effective every drill of at least one 
 hour's duration counts ; when a man attends a squad, 
 a compauy, or a battalion, and does ouq hour's drill 
 
 under the commaml of his officers or the instruction 
 of tiu' Serjeant instructor, we count that as a drill. 
 
 3615. Have j'ou or your serj(!ants ever goiu; round 
 to the men at their houses to drill thorn ? — 'i'hey have 
 uot done so. The principle on which our corps are 
 formed, aiul which I lielieve to be the oidy |irineiplo 
 on which thov can succeed is, that the men should 
 have a central drill ground close to their homes, and 
 that <'vcrv man should live not further than a mile 
 from it, so that they can lounge on to the drill grounil 
 for an hour instead of lounging somewhere else. If 
 you make an afternoon's work of every drill, I do not 
 think that men will come often enough to learn their 
 drill. 
 
 3616. What is the average distance ofyourconi- 
 l)auics from headquarters ? — I thyik that the men 
 generallv live within half a mile of their parade 
 ground. 
 
 3617. Is it altsolufoly necessary in an administra- 
 tive battalion that tlu^ adjutant should have a room in 
 which to carrvontlu^ orderly I'oom correspondence ? — 
 It is absolutely uocossary that he should have some 
 sort of oflice, and it nuist be at his own house. I think 
 that he ought to be allowed the rent of a house, and 
 tiien he woidd find a room to carry on the business in. 
 He has at present to provide an orderly room for the 
 liattaliou out of his pay, and we have one to find for 
 each of the 11 companies besides. 
 
 3618. Have you a headquarters orderly room ? — 
 No ; there is no battalion orderly room. 
 
 3619. In nine cases out of the 11, cannot the adju- 
 tant conveniently transact his business in his own 
 house? — I think that his own house must be the 
 orderlv room for the battalion business. 
 
 3620. In fact, you wish to increase the adjutant's 
 allowance by giviug him the rent of a house ? — Yes ; 
 50/. a year is the rent he pays for his house. 
 
 362i. {Sir A. CainphcU.) In case your suggestion 
 were uot adopted, to what extent do you antici]«ite a 
 falling off in your numbers ? — I do not think that the 
 battalion will exist at all unless something is done 
 for it. 
 
 3622. Supposing vour suggestion were adopted to 
 the extent of relieving the men of all their expenses 
 except the uniform, what do you think would be the 
 result ? — I am quite certain that they will not find 
 their uniforms. 
 
 3623. You think, that unless they are relieved of 
 the whole expense, they will practically sink ? — I 
 think iluit they must be relieved of the expense of the 
 uniforms ; I believe that they would still continue to 
 ])ay something towards other expenses, luit they must 
 have their uniforms ; we have no subscriptions from 
 the men in most of the companies ; unless a man 
 chooses to subscribe to the fund, he is not called upon 
 as a volunteer to do so. 
 
 3624. {Viscount Ilcirdingc.) AVhat proportion of 
 the nieu clothe themselves in the difl'ereut companies 
 who would not require to be clothed at the expense of 
 the Government ? — I think, if there was an allowance 
 made, that every man would take the allowance 
 towards the clothes, unless they were very rich 
 men. 
 
 3625. I think you stated that there were a good 
 many gentlemen in the ranks ? — Yes, in some of the 
 corps. There are some mi'u in all of them, perhaps, 
 who would not take it. 
 
 3626. Do you thiuk that the greater proportion of 
 them would take it ? — Nine-tenths of them would 
 certainly. 
 
 3627. {Sir A. CnwphcU.) You have said that they 
 must lie supplied with clothing ; is that on account 
 of pecuniary necessity, or liecause they have a feeling 
 that they have a right to expect! it from the country ? 
 — I think that nniny of them could p.ay for it if they 
 liked to do so; but they look upon it that this 
 Commission is certainly going to give them clothing, 
 and they feel that they have done enough in pro- 
 viding it at starting. The inhabitants of the districts 
 feel that they have clothed the companies and sup- 
 
 U 3 
 
 Litut.-Col 
 
 F. W. Knight, 
 
 MP. 
 
 27 June 1862.
 
 150 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE COMMISSIONEKS APPOINTED 
 
 ported them for three yeai's, and that they have done 
 enough as individuals. 
 
 3628. Do you tbiuk that an immediate decision 
 upon this point is important ? — I think that by tlie 
 time the tliree years' subscriptions liave run out, and 
 they will begin to do so next October, we ought to 
 know what we have to expect ; after that I think 
 there will be a great falling off, and great disappoint- 
 ment felt if nothing be done. 
 
 3629. {Lord Overstone.) The feeling to whicii you 
 refer as to the clothing is, that they think it reason- 
 able the clothing should be provided, rather than a 
 feeling that they cannot go on if they are subject to 
 that charge ? — I think that some of the corps, for 
 example, two of the Kidderminster corps, could not go 
 on. I think that there are men in all the corps who 
 could not go on. 
 
 3630. Is that the larger or the smaller proportion ? — 
 In some of the corps it is a very large proportion ; in 
 some of the corps men who could provide themselves 
 with clothing do not choose to do so ; they say, 
 " If we give our time, that is all that ought to l)e 
 " required of us." 
 
 36i51. How many volunteers are there in Worces- 
 tershire ? — There are 10 companies besides my own 
 battalion, I have 936 men, the other battalion consists 
 of more than 700. 
 
 3632. Should "you say that the condition of the 
 volunteer force in the county of Worcester is at the 
 present moment satisfactory ? — I think it is so far 
 perfectly satisfactory ; there has been no falling off, 
 we can get plenty of recruits, and we have no difficulty 
 at all in getting fit and proper men for olBcers. 
 
 3633. Do you think that it is without doubt in a 
 satisfactory and proper condition as to the arms and 
 accoutrements ? — Certainly quite so. 
 
 3634. Do you think i( is in an equally satisfactory 
 and efficient state as to the discipline and organiza- 
 tion of the men ? — Colonel MacMurdo made a good 
 report of us last autumn, after he had inspected us. 
 
 3635. Supposing that an emergency occurred, ren- 
 dering it necessary on the part of the Government 
 to call out the aid of all the volunteers in the king- 
 dom, do you think that the W^orcestershire volun- 
 teers would be prepared to render efficient service ? 
 —I am quite sure of it ; we have had in every corps 
 some men who have gone through the drill and have 
 left us, that is to say, we have more drilled men in 
 each parish than we have got in the ranks ; and I 
 have not the least doubt that I could take the field 
 with 1,100 men in case of sudden alarm, having filled 
 up the companies to 100 from the men who have 
 been already in the corps, and we should be as 
 eflBcient as Colonel MacMurdo reported us to be ; 
 they can go through their battalion days very fairly 
 well, and they make mistakes very seldom. 
 
 3636. You feel confident that in a case of emer- 
 gency, with respect to which the force has been 
 organized, suddenly occurring, the county of Wor- 
 cester would furnish something like a body of 1,200 
 men ? — I think it would furnish a great many more. 
 I think that every company would be near 100, and we 
 have 21 companies. I have no doubt that we should 
 send out 2,000 drilled men in case of invasion, and 
 leave our parade grounds occupied by three or four 
 times that number of recruits. 
 
 3637. {Cnl. MacMurdo.) Do you think that they 
 would fight ? — I know they would fight ; au'l the 
 way in which they are now recruited is such as to 
 take in just the cream of the young fighting popula- 
 tion. During the late war you forced a lot of middle- 
 aged men into the volunteers to avoid the militia 
 ballot : but these are nearly all young men, all active 
 and high-spirited fellows, who go into the volunteers 
 to fit themselves for fighting, and I will answer for 
 their fighting. 
 
 3638. ( Lord Overstone.) Do you see any ground 
 for doubting the continuance of the force at its present 
 strength and efficiency, setting aside the question of 
 numbers and pecuniary considerations ? — I am con- 
 fident that they will go on if the allowances I have 
 
 named are made by the country, judging from every- 
 thing that I see and know. 
 
 3639. You feel confident that the existing force 
 may bo maintained, and rather increased in numbers 
 and efficiency, provided pecuniary assistance of the 
 kind you have already alluded to is given ? — I think 
 that if the assistance which I have already alluded to 
 is given, and if you wanted, in case of emergency, to 
 raise more corps in Worcestershire, you would find 
 no difficulty in doing so ; the chief difficulty would 
 be to officer them properly, there would lie plenty 
 of men. 
 
 3640. Do you think that there is considerable 
 difficulty in finding proper officers ? — We have found 
 none as yet. Of course the supply of officers is shorter 
 than the supply of men ; but we have fqund no 
 difficulty hitherto. 
 
 3641. Do you think that the officers of the Wor- 
 cester volunteers are now fully competent to the 
 discharge of all their duties ? — I think that they are 
 fully competent to command their companies on a 
 battalion field day. 
 
 3642. Do you think that the efficiency of the force 
 would not be seriously impaired by any defects in 
 that respect if they were called into real service ? — I 
 think not ; I think that by the time we had been out 
 for three weeks we should be very fair soldiers. 
 
 3643. What would be the condition of the volunteer 
 force in Worcester upon the supposition that things 
 were left as they are now ; do you think they will go 
 on for another twelve months ? — I think there would 
 be great disappointment if they heard that this Com- 
 mission had broken up without doing something of 
 them ; but until our tliree years are run out, I think 
 there will be no falling off ; we have from the first 
 expected that we should get assistance from Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 3644. Supposing this Commission had never been 
 appointed, do you think that the Worcestershire 
 volunteer force would have suffered severelj' in its 
 efficiency and numbers from want of pecuniary aid ? 
 — I think that if the Government refused, with or 
 without a Commission, to give us new uniforms, we 
 should fall av\'ay. 
 
 3645. You think that that would have been the 
 case, supposing this Commission had never been 
 appointed ? — Yes ; some time next spring the thing 
 would be getting very slack indeed. 
 
 3646. Having stated that some pecuniary aid from 
 the Government is essential for maintaining the 
 efficiency and permanency of the volunteer force, are 
 there any other measures which you think should be 
 adopted for the purpose of maintaining or increasing- 
 its efiiciency ? — One of the things that has been pressed 
 upon me very much, is the exemption of volunteers 
 from serving on juries. There are a number of gentle- 
 men in the corps, and many of them are manufacturers, 
 and they think that if they give their time, and they do 
 sacrifice a considerable amount of time to the service 
 of the country as volunteers, they ought to be ex- 
 empted from serving on juries. 
 
 3647. Do you mean that their opinion is that those 
 who, either from indisposition or incapacit}', cannot 
 serve in a volunteer force ought to take uj)on them- 
 selves those civil duties from whicli the volunteers 
 should be exempted ?■ — Yes. 
 
 3648. Is it your opinion, upon a full consideration 
 of that question, that that is a reasonable expectation? 
 — I think it is a very reasonable expectation indeed. 
 
 3649. (Chairman.) Do your men principally belong 
 to the class who would be called upon to serve on 
 juries ? — Many of them do. 
 
 3650. (Major Harcourt.) Do you find any diffi- 
 culty in enforcing the orders that you think it neces- 
 sary to give in the separate corps ? — I have never 
 found any difficulty. 
 
 3651. What do you conceive to be your present 
 position as colonel commanding an administrative 
 battalion ? — I do not quite know what it is, but 
 I think that the position ought to be that of a lieu- 
 tenant-colonel of yeomanry ; that force has gone on
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 151 
 
 for many years very satisfactorily, and I tliink that 
 the relation between the colonel and other officers and 
 non-commissioned officers and privates ought to be 
 the same as that in the yeomanry. As long as there 
 is a good feeling between officers, there never can be 
 the least difficulty, but supposing that there is not 
 that good feeling, then the thing could not go on. 
 It is impossible that it can go on. If the officers 
 were on bad terms, such as would render it impos- 
 sible for them to serve in the regiment together, then 
 I think the War Office ought to interfere. 
 
 3652. Do you wish any change to be made in your 
 position as colonel commanding an administrative 
 battalion, and to have further powers given to you?— 
 I do not feel that any further powers are necessary. 
 If on any disputed point I have the power of appeal- 
 ing to the War Office through the lord-lieutenant, and if 
 the War Office gives a proper support, I do not feel 
 that I want more power. 
 
 36.53. {Col. 3IacMnrdo.) On the contrary, you 
 have reason to think that you are well supported ? — 
 Thoroughly. 
 
 36.34. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you found your 
 opinion on the general principle of the thing, or upon 
 the terms which you are with your own officers and 
 the personal character of your lord-lieutenant?— 
 You cannot force men ; all these men are volunteers, 
 and can leave the force at once. I think that if an 
 officer chooses to oppose his superior officer in any 
 matter concerning the drill or anything of that sort, 
 the lord-lieutenant would immediately represent it 
 to the War Office, and I have no doubt that it would 
 bo sufficiently taken notice of. I think it ought not 
 to be considered whether an officer is in uniform or 
 not, and that anj'thing ought to bo taken notice of 
 that concerns the discipline and well-being of the bat- 
 talion. I cannot imagine any more power that I want 
 personally. 
 
 3655. {3Injor Harcourt.) Do you conceive that 
 you have any power at all as colonel commanding an 
 administrative battalion when you are not assembled 
 for the purposes of battalion drill ? — I have no 
 direct power ; but from the position I am in with 
 the officers under my command, I feel certain that 
 anything I said would lie attended to. The relation 
 of officers in volunteer battalions to each other ought 
 to be the same as in regiments of yeomanry. 
 
 3656. ( Col. MacMurdo.) You will remember that 
 an officer behaved disrespectfully to you as colonel 
 of the battalion when you were out of uniform ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3657. And that the circumstance was brought to 
 the notice of the Secretary for War through the lord- 
 lieutenant ? — Yes. 
 
 3658. Do you remember that that officer was called 
 upon to resign his commission ? — Certainly. 
 
 3659. Although neither he nor you were in uniform 
 at the time, it was considered by the Secretary at War 
 that your relative positions at the time were well 
 understood to be that of a commanding and a sub- 
 ordinate officer, and the Secretary of State decided 
 that the officer who behaved disrespectfully to you, 
 although out of uniform, was culp.able ? — Yes ; but it 
 must be remembered, that he was summoned by 'a 
 battalion order to attend a certain meeting, although 
 it was not ordered in uniform, and the question only 
 arises whether, if he had not been summoned by that 
 battalion order, the War Office would have taken the 
 same notice of it. I think that it ought to do so. I 
 think that if an officer chooses to offend or insult his 
 superior officer when he meets him out of uniform, 
 it is impossible they can go on together. I think that 
 
 there should be full power in the War Office upon the 
 recommendation of the lord-lieutenant to take notice 
 of such a case, whether the individual was summoned 
 by a battalion order or not at the time ; if not it is 
 quite clear that a couple of officers could drive a 
 li(nitenant-colonel out of his regiment. It would be 
 (piite impossible for him to challenge or to strike 
 an officer under his command, and therefore, as 
 he could not right himself, it is necessary to have 
 full authority in tlu' War Office to deal with a case 
 of that sort. 
 
 3660. {Major JIarcoitrl.) Suppose that in any ono 
 of your companies you wished any alteration made in 
 the drill, I suppose you would liardly feel yourself 
 
 empowered to give directions to that effect ? Tho 
 
 drill itself is laid down by the army regulations, and 
 cannot be altered ; with regard to time and j)lace of 
 drill, &c., I think it would be very imprudent to 
 make any general orders, because the circumstances 
 of each company and the circumstances of the men 
 are quite different. I am sure that the captains in 
 command would always select those occasions for 
 drills that were most suitable for their companies. 
 We are not men who have been forced in by the 
 militia ballot, and who mean to do as little as we 
 can ; we me;m to make ourselves efficient ; and the 
 object of the captains is to have such drills as are 
 most suitable for their men, and to get as much drill 
 as they reasonably can out of them. I do not know 
 the habits of their men, and if I were to give any 
 general order, I should probably make a great 
 mistake. 
 
 3661. {Major- Gen. Eijrc.) From your knowledge 
 of the feelings of the volunteers generally, do you 
 think as a body they would have any objection to be 
 placed under the superintendence occasionally of a 
 military officer, or do you think on the contrary they 
 would like it when they were ordered for great 
 parades, or were assembled together in any numbers ? 
 — I think they are a little jealous of their own 
 position ; that an officer who is competent and ready 
 to pass an examination would not like to be put under 
 command more than he could avoid. 
 
 3662. What I'ank do you allude to ? — I mean that 
 if two or three battalions were brought together and 
 put into brigade, the senior lieutenant-colonel should 
 take the command of the brigade ; but I think it might 
 be right to call upon him to be examined before 
 he was put in connnand ; he would feel considerable 
 disappointment if a stranger were sent to command 
 his brigade if he was competent to do so himself, 
 and had proved himself to be competent. 
 
 3663. {Col. MacMurdo.) You have mentioned the 
 subject of the repair of arms ; how are they repaired 
 now ? — Generally in every town there is a gunsmith 
 or an ironmonger who understands repairing guns, 
 and, perhaps, the son of the ironmonger is acting in 
 the capacity of serjeant armourer, and some allow- 
 ance is made to him per annum to keep the arms in 
 repair. 
 
 3664. What descriptions of repairs are executed 
 by such a man ? — I do not know, but they do repair 
 them ; I know that there is a charge for serjeant 
 armourer in every company ; I have not personally 
 seen their work. 
 
 3665. You are probably aware that when arms re- 
 quire to be repaired, they should be rejjaired by Her 
 Majesty's officers at the small arms factory, and 
 
 should be reported and sent into the factory ? I am 
 
 not capable of giving an answer, but any orders that 
 are issued from the War Office we shall of course 
 obey them. 
 
 Lieut. -Col. 
 
 F. W. Knight, 
 
 M.P. 
 
 27 June 1862. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned to Tuesday next at half-past 12 o'clock. 
 
 U 4
 
 153 
 
 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COJIMISSIOXEKS APPOINTED 
 
 Tuesday, 1st July 1862. 
 
 PRESENT 
 
 Viscount EvERSLEY. 
 Eai-1 of DrciE. 
 Viscount Harding E. 
 
 Lord OVERSTONE. 
 
 Mr. BouvERiE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Coloni-'l Barttklot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 Lieuteniint-Goneral Sir G. A. Wetuerall. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 jMajor ILvRCOURT. 
 
 ViscouxT EVERSLEY ix the Citair. 
 Lieutenant Euward Edwards examined. 
 
 3666. {Chairman.) I believe you are adjutant of 
 the first administrative battalion of Warwickshire 
 Eific Volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 3667. How many corps are there in that battalion ? 
 —Nine corps and a subdivision. 
 
 3668. Are there nine corps of 100 men each ? — 
 No, they are just companies, numbering 639 of nil 
 ranks. 
 
 3669. How often have you battalion drills ?— We 
 liad nine last year, and we have had three this year 
 already ; one will take place at Coventry to-morrow 
 afternoon, which will make four battalion dri'ls this 
 year, but they cannot be often got together. 
 
 3670. How many men do you generally muster at 
 a battalion drill ? — Between 400 and 500 as a rule, 
 about two-thirds of the total strength of the corps. 
 
 367 L Do you visit the other companies occa- 
 sionally ? — I resolve my work into a system ; I have 
 got one company at Rugby, and I go there every 
 Monday ; I have tlirce companies at Coventry, and 
 I |go there every Tuesday; I have one company at 
 Stratford-upon-Avon, and I go there every AVednesday 
 and devote the whole of that day to them ; then 
 I have another company at Warwick, a company and 
 a subdivision at Leamington, and I devote the 
 Tliursday to them ; except tlie first Monday and Wed- 
 nesday in each month. I lake the Monday from 
 Rugby and the Wednesday from Stratford-npon-Avon 
 in each month, and I devote that to Warwick and 
 Leamington, so as to equalize the number of drills in 
 every corps. Friday I give to Nuneaton, and Satur- 
 day to Saltley. 
 
 3672. Have you an opportunity of seeing every 
 corps belonging to the battalion ? — Yes ; every corps 
 and every man in them. I drill every corps, and 
 get them together for battalion drill as often as they 
 can come. 
 
 3673. Do you allow the men to join in battalion 
 drill before they are perfect in company drill ? — 
 No. I am sure they are correct before they do 
 that, because I drill them myself before they join 
 the battalion. 
 
 3674. Are there drill instructors attached to each 
 company ? — No. Coventry has none ; it has three 
 companies. 
 
 3675. Those companies are all in one town, and 
 therefore one drill instructor is sufficient ? — By the 
 regulations of the volunteers, there is one drill in- 
 structor allowed to three companies. 
 
 3676. (Co/. Mac Jill re/ o.) That is if the three com- 
 panies happen to be in one place oi' within a radius 
 of one mile ?— Yes. 
 
 3677. Beyond that radius there is one drill in- 
 structor to every corps ? — Yes. 
 
 3678. {Chairma?i.) Do you find that these com- 
 panies have all passed through a course of musketry 
 instruction ? — No ; not above two-thirds of them on the 
 averao-e ; as nearly as possible there is one-third of every 
 corps who are so employed ; their duties calling them 
 away that you cannot get them to judging distance 
 drill and position aiming drill or target practice. I 
 find that they are chiefly employed in the drapers' 
 shops, and their masters cannot spare them till about 
 8 o'clock at night and after that for drill ; they 
 cannot be spared out during the morning to go 
 
 through the judging distance drill and position drill 
 and target practice. 
 
 3679. Do you consider the musketry instruction 
 a veiy important part of the drill ? — That is everj'- 
 thing in the volunteers. 
 
 3680. (Major-Geit. Eyre.) Would they be of any 
 use without it ? — Not the slightest. What is the use 
 of a man who cannot shoot ? 
 
 3681. {Viscount HarcJingc.) You can put them 
 through position drill at those hours, can you not ? — • 
 Yes ; you can teach them positiou drill, but you 
 cannot give them target practice, it is generally get- 
 ting too dark. 
 
 3682. {Chairman.) I understood you to say that 
 there are not above two-thirds of this battalion who 
 really are thoroughly drilled ? — They are all tho- 
 roughly drilled as far as regards their drill as a bat- 
 talion. I believe that every man could turn out aud 
 go through his drill with the battalion, and you would 
 not find out who were the absentees ; but I know who 
 they are, because I drill them myself. 
 
 3683. {Major- Gen. Ei/re.) You mean that they are 
 thoroughly di'illed barring the shooting 'i — Yes, bar- 
 ring that. I cannot guarantee that. 
 
 3684. {Sir A. CampheU.) By whom is the rifle 
 instruction in the companies carried on ? — By the 
 seijeant instructors of the companies. 
 
 3685. Are those serjeant instructors previously 
 examined and passed by you ? — They are Hythe 
 men. Every one of them has to go to Hythe, aud to 
 go through a long course at Hj'the, vide Volunteer 
 Circular, No. 5, 22nd August 1861, Article 153. 
 
 3686. With regard to the musketry jinstruction, 
 your functions I presume are confined to general 
 superintendence ? — Yes. 
 
 3687. What work have you to do in the orderly 
 room ? — Having an administrative battalion, there is 
 very little to do, because the captain of every com- 
 pany is i\\c bond Jidc commanding officer of his own 
 corps. 
 
 3688. I presume tlikt the captain of each com- 
 pany keeps Colonel Scott informed of the system 
 of drill pursued, the times of the drills, aud of the 
 manner in which the whole instruction is carried out ? 
 • — -No; I keep him informed upon those subjects. 
 I make out and send to him by every Sunday night's 
 post a detailed statement of what the battalion 
 will do next week, with the companies on the left 
 hand side for Monday. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thurs- 
 da}-, Friday, and Saturday ; for instance, Rugby 
 company drill at such a time on Monday, and target 
 iiractice, or what ever it may be ; then Coventry, 
 Tuesday, so and so. so that Colonel Scott knows on 
 the iSIonday morning where I shall be employed 
 every day, and at what time during that week. 
 Then, on the reverse side, I send to him the number 
 of men who actually were present at that particular 
 parade last week, so that he can see what I am 
 going to do next week, and what I did last w^eek. 
 
 3689. My object in asking you these questions is 
 to ascertain the amount of oflicial duties as distin- 
 guished from drills and instruction which falls upon 
 the adjutant, correspondence, and so forth? — There 
 is none, except making out the monthly diary and 
 quarterly returns.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 153 
 
 3690. Do you mean that in conducting llio arrange- 
 ments of tlie drill for the dift'erent companies, and 
 in making tlie commanding officer acquainted witli 
 tlicm, tliere is no corres])ondencc and no office work ? 
 — It is very little ; I do not know how it is with 
 other battalions, but you see that I have ro.«olved the 
 thing into a system, and it works as I have told you ; 
 every day does its own work, and the colonel is 
 informed of this. Then each officer commanding a 
 corps in an administrative battalion is really and 
 truly the commanding officer himself; and, in fact, 
 the commanding officer of a volunteer company in an 
 administrative battalion has the same power as a 
 captain commanding a battery of artillery, and those 
 are superintended by thexolonel, i-ide Regulations for 
 the Volunteer Force, page 52, art. 190. 
 
 3691. Referring to your last answer, do you con- 
 sider that the commanding officer of an administrative 
 battalion has sufficient control over the management 
 of the diffiiU'ent corps ? — I very much question whether 
 he has, in fact the control is so little, that I scarcely 
 know what it is. He certainly has, I believe, so far 
 that all the promotions of the officers must go through 
 hini. I believe that when the battalion parades for 
 general battalion drill, he has authority to order it, 
 but how far the officer commanding the administrative 
 battalion can interfere with the interior economy of a 
 company, I cannot say ; I do not think he can inter- 
 fere at all. 
 
 3692. Considering not only what may or may not 
 have happened in your own battalion, but what might 
 happen, do you think it would be an advantage to the 
 service if an alteration should be made as to the power 
 of the administrative lieutenant-colonel ? — No, I am 
 afraid not. 
 
 oG93. Do you think that he cou.ld be placed in tho 
 same j)osition as the lieutenant-colonel of a yeomanry 
 regiment ? — Not being aware what the powers of a 
 lieutenant-colonel of a yeomanry corps are I cannot 
 answer the question, but I should imagine that the 
 colonel of a yeomanry corps has greater power over the 
 yeomanry cavalry, which are assembled for a certain 
 number of days, during which days they are, I pre- 
 sume, subject to some law, when assembled under the 
 orders of the commanding officer ; whether they are 
 subject to the Mutiny Act during those days 1 am 
 not quite sure. 
 
 3694. ( Viscount Hardlnge.) Have you ever known 
 any inconvenience to arise from the present state of 
 things, or from the colonel not having sufficient 
 power ? — No, I have not. 
 
 3695. All the promotions go through you, do they 
 not ? — No ; all the promotions in an administrative 
 battalion are worked by the clerk of the lieutenancy, 
 the commanding officer of the battalion, and the lord 
 lieutenant. The adjutant has nothing whatever to do 
 with them in my battalion. 
 
 3696. In a case where the captain of a company 
 recommends a member of his corps to fill a vacant en- 
 signcy, does he not send his recommendation to you 
 in the first instance, and do you not then forward it ? 
 — No ; I have nothing whatever to do with it. 
 
 3697. Then the captain forwards it direct to the 
 colonel ? — Yes ; I am not allowed to interfere. 
 
 3698. (Chairman.) Is there railway communication 
 to all the places which you have enumerated where 
 there are companies ? — I place myself in the centre 
 so as to get it ; there are two railways coming to Lea- 
 mington, and by placing myself there I get by the 
 Great Western railway to Stratford-upon-Avon, and 
 by the North-western railway to Rugby, Coventry, 
 Nuneaton, and Saltley. 
 
 3699. Your expenses are not so large as those of 
 other adjutants, who have to go over a great extent 
 of country without the aid of railways ? — I do not 
 kno«' that. 
 
 3700. (Earl of Dude.') Have you any supplemental 
 allowance besides your pay ? — Nothing more than 
 is allowed to the adjutant of an administrative bat- 
 talion, 8i'. a day pay, and 2*. a day for travelling 
 allowauces. 
 
 3701. I mean from the corps ? — Not a farthing ; 
 and if I was not a pensioner in tho receipt of 2«. 6il. 
 1! day pension, I could not do the duty. I ought to 
 save my pension every year, but I cannot do it. I 
 have iii)l. \'2s. ikl. a year (20/. ibr distinguished con- 
 duct in the field, and 45/. 1 2s. iid. pension) otherwise 
 I could not do the duty. 
 
 3702. ( Viscount Jlardingc.) It appears that you 
 visit your companies more freciuently than other 
 adjutants ? — Not being aware of what other adjutants 
 do, 1 cannot answer that question. 
 
 3703. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you think that the 
 drill instruction of the volunteers could be carried 
 on satisfactorily without a drill inslruclor ? — Certainly 
 not. 
 
 3704. yCol. MacMurdo.) Have you ever estimated 
 the loss you sustained in travelling ? — No, but it is 
 considerable ; I can give you the amount of each 
 day's expenses, that is, what it should be. r.ot what 
 it is, because I am forced to tramp to be able to do 
 it. I start from Leamington to Kugliy on Monday, 
 the company at Rugliy cannf)t drill until half-past 7 or 
 8 o'clock in the evening, consequently I must stop 
 there all night, and there are hotel charges for the 
 uight and railway I'are for a distance of 15 miles, the 
 1st class fare would be 2s. Gd., and both ways the 
 railway fare would amount to os. 
 
 3705. You travel as an officer ? — Yes, in uniform. 
 
 3706. Do you get an officer's ticket ? — Yes ; then 
 come the hotel charges, and we cannot do it for less 
 than r>s. to sleep there at night and to have supper 
 and breakfast the next morning, and you may put 
 down the fair expenses for Monday at \Qs. Then on 
 Tuesday I go to Coventry, a distance of nine miles ; 
 they drill there in the atternoon at various times 
 between two and six, but 1 can always get back from 
 Coventry the same night ; nine miles there and back 
 would be 18, and the railway fare would lie 3s. 
 No expenses arc incurred more than simply the rail- 
 way fare, as I get my dinner before I start, and get 
 my supper when I come back. On Wednesday I go 
 to Stratford-on-Avon, and that should be the same 
 sum as to Rugby, because I leave home at about 
 ilve o'clock in the afternoon, and the company at 
 Stratford-on-Avon drills from half-past seven until 
 dark in the summer time, in the winter time they 
 have the use of the Corn Exchange. I have to 
 stop there all night, and the fair charge foi- that is 
 \0s. On Thursday I am at home, either at Leaming- 
 ton or at Warwick. They are so close together that 
 they need not entail any expense ; I may walk to 
 Warwick, the distance being only two miles and 
 a half ; there is a railway, but that is no reason 
 why it should be taken. On Friday I go to Nun- 
 eaton, and the distance there is just the same as 
 to Stratford and to Rugliy, fifteen miles. At Nun- 
 eaton the company cannot drill until after 7 o'clock 
 at night ; the last train leaves Nuneaton for Coventry 
 at 5 minutes before 7, and the consequence is that 
 the captain of the company sends me to Coventry, a 
 distance of nine miles, in his dog cart, so that 1 save so 
 much ; to go to Nuneaton the railway fare would be 
 for 15 miles 2s. 6d., and if I had to stop there all night 
 would make it 10s. exactly, the same as in the case 
 of Rugby and Stratford, or were I to take a dog cart, 
 and pay for it, at Nuneaton to bring me back to 
 Coventry I should get it for Ss., and 2s. 6d. would 
 make it 10s. 6f/., Gd. more than if I stopped there 
 all night ; therefore if I was not dejiendent upon tho 
 kindness of the captain of tho company in sending 
 me back the expenses ought to ha 10s., the same as 
 in the other cases, as I must stop there all night or take 
 a dog cart at my own expense to come back to Co^-eu- 
 try. On Saturday I go to Saltley, which is close to 
 Birmingham, the distance is ISmiJes from Leamingtou 
 by railway, and then to come back again from Snow 
 Ilill station to Saltley College is three, and the 
 question is in making this estinuite whether you would 
 allow cab fare for tho three miles there and the 
 three miles back, together six miles. At Birmingham 
 they charge you Is. a mile for a cab, and then the 
 
 Licit. 
 E. Kdxiards 
 
 1 July 18C3.
 
 154 
 
 MINCTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONEES APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut. 
 E. Edwards. 
 
 1 July 1862. 
 
 railway fare would be 12s. to go to SaUley and back. 
 Then it would be Monday, to Rugby, \0s. ; Tuesday, 
 to Coventry, 3s. ; Wednesday, to Stratford-on-Avon, 
 10s. ; Friday, to Nuneaton, 10s. ; and Saturday, to 
 Saltley, 12s. ; making together 21. 5s., for which I get 
 allowed 14s. 
 
 3707. You do not keep a horse ? — No, Colonel 
 Scott very kindly keeps one for me. 
 
 3708. Then the 2s. for forage are supposed to go 
 to travelling expenses ? — Yes ; making 28s. 
 
 3709. You are therefore at a loss of 17s ? — Yes. 
 
 3710. And that you pay out of your pension ? — 
 Yes, it would take about 40^ of my pension to 
 pay my ti-avelling expenses. 
 
 3711. {Lord Overstone.) I think you stated that 
 once in every week you have personal communications 
 with every company of volunteers throughout the 
 county of Warwick ? — Yes ; once in every week. 
 
 3712. In your opinion are the volunteers generally 
 throughout Warwick at the present moment in an 
 efficient state ?^I never could get them all together 
 at one time so as to be able to give a fair answer, 
 but I should say certainly from what I have seen 
 of the other volunteers that they are quite up to 
 anything else that is to be found. 
 
 3713. I wish you to give your answer with 
 reference to the duties the volunteers will have to 
 discharge in case of their being called into active 
 service and not with reference to the comparative 
 state of other volunteers ? — I have no doubt for one 
 moment that if I had them all together for about 
 one week I could make them all as efficient as the 
 best of them are now. 
 
 3714. You think that with a short notice of a few 
 weeks in case of a great emergency the Warwickshire 
 volunteers would be an efficient force ? — Quite so. 
 
 3715. Capable of rendering valuable assistance to 
 the regular army in defence of the country ? — 
 Quite so, 
 
 3716. Is their condition at the present time satis- 
 factory with regard to the state of their clothing ?— 
 No, it is not. 
 
 3717. Will you have the goodness to state to the 
 Commission in what respects you think the clothing 
 is deficient ? — The clothing has been in wear for two 
 years, or rather more, and a great number of the 
 men require new clothing, or will very shortly 
 require new, and they are not prepared to pay for it 
 themselves, they require some assistance. 
 
 3718. Do you think that assistance with regard to 
 the clothing wiU be necessary to preserve them in a 
 state of efficiency ? — I believe that upon that simple 
 question hinges the existence of the corps. 
 
 3719. Do you think that they are in an efficient and 
 satisfactory state as to their arms and accoutrements ? 
 —Decidedly so. 
 
 3720. In all respects you think that their arms and 
 accoutrements are in that state in which they would 
 be fit for service if suddenly called upon ? — Perfectly 
 so. I can answer fi'om my own knowledge for every 
 arm and every accoutrement. 
 
 3721. Are their pouches in a satisfactory state ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3722. Are they provided with knapsacks ? — They 
 are not. 
 
 3723. Do you think that they are necessary ? — 
 Most decidedly, if they were going to take the field. 
 
 3724. Is it not the fact that the Guards lived three 
 months in the Crimea without knapsacks ? — I beg to 
 inform you that I was one of them that did exist 
 during that time without, but hardly lived. 
 
 3725. Considering the difference of circumstances, 
 and the facility for communication in this country, do 
 you not think that havresacks without knapsacks 
 might be sufficient ? — No ; not to keep a man in any 
 sort of comfort, or as he ought to be efficient ; a 
 man will breed vermin in no time without clean 
 shirts and socks, just the same as the British army 
 did in the Crimea. 
 
 3726. The knapsacks you consider as essential for 
 anything like prolonged service ; but might they not 
 
 be dispensed with for a short time ? — Yes, I think 
 so ; but only for a very short time. 
 
 3727. Passing on to the question of discipline and 
 drill, do you think that the Warwickshire volunteers 
 are now in a state sufficiently advanced as to dis- 
 cipline and drill to turn out forthwith as an efficient 
 auxiliary to the regular army ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 3728. I believe you have already stated that as to 
 the use of their musket there is still a deficiency ?^ 
 Yes, in about one-third of the corps. 
 
 3729. Have you observed that there are any clear 
 indications of danger in maintaining the Warwickshire 
 volunteers in tlieir present state of efficiency ?— I 
 have. 
 
 3730. Will you have the goodness to state the 
 grounds of that apprehension ? — As I stated before, I 
 think the whole efficiency of the Warwickshire volun- 
 teers depends entirely upon the question of clothing ; 
 so I am informed by the captains commanding com- 
 panies, and so it appears to me as far as I can judge. 
 
 3731. Supposing the difficulty as to clothing to be 
 met, do you think there any other circumstances 
 calculated to excite apprehension as to the efficiency 
 of the force ? — None. 
 
 3732. I infer, therefore, from that last answer, that 
 you cannot suggest to this Commission any measures 
 which you think desirable for giving greater certainty 
 to the permanence and efficiency of the force, saving 
 always the question of the clothing ? — Yes, there are 
 two other questions. I think there are three headings 
 under which the Government may assist the volun- 
 teers, and I think there are three only. 
 
 3733. Will you have the goodness to state them ? 
 — First of all comes drill instructors. The Volunteer 
 Circular, No. 5, dated 22nd August 1861, is, I am 
 afraid, a failure. 
 
 3734. Do you think it would be of valuable assist- 
 ance to the volunteer movement if some arrangement 
 was made with the army for the supply of good drill 
 instructors, or some arrangement for constituting a 
 staff of drill instructors for the use of the volunteer 
 force ? — Yes. 
 
 3735. Can you suggest any particular form in which 
 that could be advantageously accomplished ? — Yes. 
 
 3736. Will you have the goodness to do so ? — The 
 Volunteer Circular of the 22nd August 1861, I am 
 afraid is a failure. The pay is not sufficient for 
 a good drill instructor, and I do not think the 
 Government will give a higher rate of pay to a drill 
 instructor of volunteers than they give to a serjeant 
 of militia. I think so, because they are both 
 exactly one class of men, consequently an intelligent 
 Serjeant who is good for anything will not on his 
 discharge join either the militia or volunteers, but 
 will obtain some other employment that pays him 
 better. 
 
 3737. Is 'it your opinion that an increase of pay 
 should be awarded by the Government ? — Yes. The 
 question then arises, could not the Government esta- 
 blish a corps of instructors from out of the army, and let 
 their service with the volunteers count for pension, in 
 the same manner as if they were still serving in the 
 army. Something of this sort will have to be done, 
 as I do not think it would answer to detach good non- 
 commissioned officers from their regiments for any 
 length of time, as they get into loose habits, and are 
 rarely ever good for anything on rejoining the regi- 
 ment. 
 
 3738. [Col. MacMurdo.) Do you mean that those 
 men should be detached from the army ? — I mean 
 simply to form a school for volunteers, the same as 
 the school of musketry at Hy tlie is for the army. 
 
 3739. But the men to be non-commisioned officers ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 3740. And simply to be detached from their regi- 
 ments, and attached to the volunteer force ? — No. 
 First of all a school must be established, the same as 
 the school at Hythe, where men are taken from their 
 regiments and put into the staff of the Hythe school, 
 and they belong to Hythe, and they have nothing to 
 do with anything else ; and I think that the same must
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEEK FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 155 
 
 be done for the volunteers ; and to hnvo a school of 
 volunteer instructors, the Government must form a 
 Bchool in the first instance, and have a central school 
 the very same as that at Ilythc, and tiien tlicy must 
 detach instructors from that school to all the volunteer 
 corps, but you must be able with regard to the men that 
 you detach to the volunteer corps to send them back to 
 the school in case of misconduct, and if the com- 
 mandant of the school disapproves of their conduct, 
 send them back to the regiment by way of punishment. 
 Then you would establish a school of instruction for 
 tho volunteers, the same as the school of instructors 
 at Hythe for the army, allowing a man's time to count 
 for his pension, exactly the same as the time of the 
 Serjeants counts, who are attached to the Hythe 
 Bchool. 
 
 3741. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) But you say the diflSculty 
 of obtaining them is on account of tho insufficiency of 
 the pay ? — I was alluding, in that case, to the men 
 who have served their time and are discharged ; you 
 cannot really get serjeant instructors who are good 
 for anything. 
 
 3742. {Col. 3IacMurdo.) The volunteers have had 
 a good many serjeant instructors ; in your own case 
 you have already four serjeant instructors to eight 
 companies ? — Yes, we have, and the proportion is fair 
 enough ; but then the question arises, what is the 
 quality of those instructors. 
 
 3743. You do not think that they are good ? — They 
 are good for nothing, or next to it ; they have been 
 old soldiers, and they can give the volunteers a few 
 ideas ; they are very steady men themselves, in fact 
 they are rather too steady. 
 
 3744. One of them was a colour-serjeant in the 
 28th regiment, and three of them had been Serjeants 
 in their respective regiments ? — Yes ; but if they had 
 had that amount of ability and .activity that they 
 ought to have had, tliey would have found sonic em- 
 ployment that would have paid them better. 
 
 3745. Do you not think that when a soldier has 
 served for 21 years in the armj', whatever his trade 
 might have been before, he must have got rather rusty 
 in it ? — There arc so many different branches of em- 
 ployment in this country, that if a man chooses to 
 look about he can always find employment. 
 
 3746. What is your opinion as to the circular which 
 is now about to be issued from the War Office, pro- 
 viding for a second class of serjeant instructors for 
 the volunteers, not requiring them to have been non- 
 commissioned officers, but soldiers who have been 
 discharged with sufficient testimonials of good cha- 
 racter, capable of imparting instruction to the volun- 
 teers, to be examined by an adjutant or inspecting 
 officer, such soldier to receive from the Government 
 1*. 6d. or \s. Ad. a-day, with permission, under tho 
 sanction of the officer commanding the volunteers, to 
 work at any trade or any occupation in addition to 
 his duties as serjeant instructor of the corps ; do you 
 think that will work ? — Yes, I do ; I do not see any 
 objection to that, 
 
 3747. It then provides for that class of non-com- 
 missioned officers who h.ave occupations or trades, but 
 who have not got pensions, but who might impart 
 instruction to companies of volunteers and at tho same 
 time attend to their work in the day-time ? — There is 
 no reason for one moment why a serjeant instructor 
 of volunteers should not work at his trade just as 
 much as the volunteers, for it must be observed that 
 nearly the whole of our volunteers are men engaged 
 in business and they can only come to drill in odd 
 hours. 
 
 3748. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) As an old soldier tho- 
 roughly well acquainted with the service, and I dare 
 say knowing something of the militia, do you think that 
 the Serjeants of disembodied militia who are doing 
 nothing all the year round, with the exception of 28 
 days, could be turned to any account ? — No, and for 
 this reason : I have had dealings with these militia 
 Serjeants, and I find very few of them who have got 
 much in them as to drill, .and if they are asked to 
 
 drill a corps of rifle volunteers the remuneration they 
 want is something alarming. 
 
 3749. ( Viscount Ilardinyc.) Would you jiroposo to 
 give them a higher rate of pay tlian they now receive ? 
 —Most decidedly, they must have it ; not liigher than 
 at tho school of musketry at Hythe, but a penny a 
 day or something like that less, just sufficient to keep 
 the musketry school at Hythe No, I, and tho voluii- 
 teer instructors No. 2, 
 
 3750. But there are different classes of Serjeants at 
 Hythe ? — Yes, and I would have the same in the 
 volunteers ; tho same rules and regulations. 
 
 3751. {Chairman.) Tlieu they would only be tem- 
 porarily attached to tho volunteers ? — Yes, so far ; so 
 that if there was any complaint made of misbehaviour 
 or inefficiency they could at once be sent back to tho 
 school to tho connnandant, who would be their real 
 commanding officer ; ho would settle all cases of 
 complaints. 
 
 3752. ( Viscount Hardinge.) How would they be 
 employed at tho school when they were not on duty 
 with a volunteer corps ? — I should not have more 
 than I could employ, and just occasionally to rub them 
 up a little. 
 
 3753. Then there would be hardly any Serjeants at 
 headquarters? — Very few indeed, never certainly 
 more than a section. I would h.ave a regular school 
 established upon the Hythe principle for the volun- 
 teers to go to and be drilled, and the same as they 
 are at Hythe taught musketry. 
 
 3754. How long would a serjeant di-aw pay at this 
 school ? — That must depend entirely, I should think, 
 upon his intelligence ; not long. 
 
 3753. He should be attached at once ? — Yes. 
 
 3756. Of what would the staff at the school con- 
 sist as to officers ? — I should have them belonging to 
 the royal army. 
 
 3757. How many would you have ? — Perhaps a 
 couple, a commandant and an adjutant. The Hythe 
 school is very small, but particularly efficient. I do 
 not see why you should not have a small school for 
 volunteers. 
 
 3758. At Hythe the Serjeants are employed all the 
 year round ? — Yes, and I will employ the others all 
 the year round. There are plenty of places round 
 the coast where you could establish a school and have 
 classes of volunteers to go and shoot there under the 
 Serjeants, only a number of volunteers instead of 
 belonging to the royal army. 
 
 3759. {Lord Overstone.) You have stated that there 
 were three points to which you wished to draw the 
 attention of the Commission with a view to in- 
 creasing the efficiency and organization of the 
 volunteer movement ; you have mentioned the first, 
 will you now proceed to the second ? — The second 
 would be by defraying the railway expenses of tho 
 volunteers. 
 
 3760. ( Chairman.) You mean when going to bat- 
 talion drills ?■ — Yes ; but the second head, I think, 
 will require somo little consideration, because I 
 should not feel disposed to encourage too much 
 riding ; for instance, if the company (properly armed 
 and in charge of its olficers) had to proceed a distance 
 less than five miles, I would not allow them their 
 railway fare, as marching will do them much more 
 good th.au riding ; but I do think if the dist.ance 
 exceeded five miles their railway fare ought to be 
 allowed them. It would be much easier to get com- 
 panies of an administrative battalion together for 
 battalion drill, and also to attend reviews at a 
 distance. The third head would be by assisting to 
 clothe them, and the third, I think, is tho most diffi- 
 cult question of the three to deal with, and will, I 
 think, require to be based upon some general rule. 
 The fourth rule of the Warwickshire rifle corps is .as 
 follows : — " The annual subscription of the officers 
 " and enrolled members shall be as follows, — captains 
 " and superior officers five guineas annually ; nou- 
 " commissioned officers and members \0s. Qd. ;" and 
 those subscriptions, together with the subscriptions 
 
 X 2 
 
 Lieut. 
 E. Edivards. 
 
 1 July 1852.
 
 156 
 
 JUNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 received from the honorary members, defray the 
 whole expenses of the company. 
 
 3761. {Chairman.) Not inchuiiug the clothing ? — 
 No ; they defray the whole expenses of the company, 
 and if the Government were to allow each corps a 
 sum of money eqnal to the amount of the subscriptions 
 from its etfective members, the expenses of the com- 
 pany could not be increased, and it would relieve the 
 eflective members in such a manner that they ought 
 to be able to pay for their own clothing. There is a 
 report iu circulation to the effect that the Govern- 
 ment are about to issue cloth to the volunteers at 
 contract price. One moment's reflection will, I 
 think, put an end to that idea. Will the Government 
 issue it in single suits, if not, how much at a time ? 
 Who is to be responsible for it, and who is to make 
 it up into suits ? It is a matter of fact that neither 
 tailors nor dressmakers care about making clothing 
 for either men or women, except they find the mate- 
 rials. I have spoken to several tailors on the sub- 
 ject, and each of them says, that they can get cloth 
 as cheap as the Government can, and that in making 
 the volunteer clothing they get their profits out of 
 the cloth. If the volunteers find their own cloth, the 
 tailors will charge such a jsrice for making it up 
 that the volunteer will save nothing by having his 
 cloth from the Government. 
 
 3762. {Lord Overstonc.) The result of your evi- 
 dence I take to be this, that making proper provision 
 for the three heads you have alluded to, namely, the 
 clothing, the drill sei'jeants, and the payment of tra- 
 velling expenses, in all other respects you consider 
 the volunteer movement in Warwickshire in a satis- 
 factory state ? — I think so. 
 
 3763. And you think that they would iu a case of 
 emergency be found to be a useful and efficient 
 force ? — Yes. 
 
 3764. ( Viscount Hardinge.) You have stated your 
 objections to the Government issuing cloth to the 
 volunteers ; what is your opinion witli regard to the 
 advisability of receiving the clothing already made 
 up ? — That is what it must be ; made up into suits, 
 one uniform suit ; and I would beg to suggest one 
 colour for the whole of the volunteer force. 
 
 3765. Do you think that the volunteers would 
 object to receiving made-up clothing from the Go- 
 vernment from any feeling of delicacy ? — I think not, 
 providing it were made up into suits. I would have 
 all the volunteers in England clothed in one colour, 
 and for this reason, which I think is a very strong one ; 
 we have lost a great number of men who have gone 
 out of the county and obtained employment in other 
 towns ; and a great number of those men have not 
 joined the volunteers in other towns to which they 
 have gone to work because they could not afford to 
 pay for another suit of clothing ; but had the volun- 
 teer force in the county to which they went been 
 clothed as they were, they would have become vo- 
 lunteers there. I have asked several men who have 
 come into our county, and they have said, " I cau- 
 " not afford to pay for another suit of clothing." 
 
 3766. Do j'ou think that a recruit on joining would 
 object to wear the cast-off uniform of another member 
 who had resigned, or who no longer belonged to the 
 corps ? — I should think that would depend a good 
 deal upon the class to which that recruit belonged; 
 an artizan, for instance. 
 
 3767. But that is a difficulty that you might meet 
 with ? — No doubt of it ; but I believe now that that 
 is carried out in my own battalion, because the men 
 in several companies are clothed partially by the 
 funds that the captains have got, and when the 
 members become non-effective, they keep the clothing, 
 and put it on to other recruits. 
 
 3768. {Sir A. Campbell.) Are there any to whom 
 the wearing of a suit of clothes which had previously 
 been worn would be objectionable, and who could not 
 afford to supply their own ? — Certainly not. 
 
 3769. You think that the volunteers with whom 
 you are acquainted might be divided into two classes, 
 ono of which would wear the uniform prescribed to 
 
 them, whether it had been worn before or not, and 
 the other would provide their own ? — I think so ; I 
 find that in my battalion there are 198 artizans and 
 12 labourers, and I am quite sure that in those two 
 classes there would be no objection to wear clothing 
 which had been previously worn ; but I find that 
 there are 22o tradesmen, men who are holding a good 
 social position, and who can afford to pay for their 
 own clothing. The Saltley company is composed of 
 students in training for national schoolmasters, and 
 consists of 60 members ; that company is clothed by 
 donations, and the tuuics, belts, &c., remain the 
 property of the corps. In this company one half 
 goes out every spring, and you cannot have a man 
 belonging to that company for more than two years. 
 The clothing is not worn out, and it belongs to the 
 college, and the belts, so that 25 will be coming in 
 next Christmas, and the senior 35 iu the college will 
 go out next Christmas ; they will leave their clothing, 
 and the other 35 coming in will take their clothing, 
 the belts belonging to the college, that is, witii respect 
 to one company. 
 
 3770. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Have you any prefer- 
 ence for colour ? — None whatever ; I should not care 
 what the colour was, supposing that all the volun- 
 teers were dressed in one uniform colour. If it were 
 possible to get all the lord-lieutenants — for I believe 
 those are the only gentlemen with whom the matter 
 rests — together for five minutes, and ask them to 
 decide what the colour of the clothing should be, and 
 admit no other into their counties, I think the ques- 
 tion would be decided in an instant. 
 
 3771. {Mr. Bouverie.) Do you contemplate the 
 clothing being given to the men, or a money contri- 
 bution to be given to the corps towards clothing ? — 
 That I think is a very grave question, but I should 
 be very sorry to recommend either ; I think it is very 
 nearly balanced. I look upon it that a suit of volun- 
 teer's clothing ought to last for about four j'ears ; for 
 I do not think that a volunteer wears his clothing 
 above one-fourth as much as a man in the royal array 
 does, who has a new suit every year ; and as the 
 volunteer's subscription is \0s. 6d. towards the funds 
 of the company, if the Government was to grant a 
 sum of money equal to that subscribed by every eflec- 
 tive member, that would give him two guineas for a 
 new suit of clothing. 
 
 3772. But would you give the allowance to a man 
 in money ? — No ; I should give the money to the offi- 
 cer commanding the corps to pay all his expenses 
 with, and start a clothing fund. Why should we not 
 have a clothing fund, the same as I have no doubt 
 many gentlemen here know of, — little clothing clubs 
 in their own parishes ? The Nuneaton cOmpanv has 
 started one, and according to the rules the members 
 pay 2^. a month, and as soon as the clothing gets 
 worn, if they have attended a certain number of drills 
 in the twelvemonths, they are allowed to have a new 
 suit of clothing. 
 
 3773. {Chairman.) What is the amount of the in- 
 dividual subscription ? — 2s. per month. 
 
 3774. {Mr. Bouverie.) Do you find any indisposi- 
 tion on the part of the artizan or labouring class to 
 pay that 10s. 6d. subscription ? — That is the class 
 that are Ijackward in jjaying ; but the best volunteer 
 is by far an artizan ; he is a man that you can drill, a 
 man that will work, and who understands you ; but 
 if you get hold of tradesmen, very fine geutlcmen, 
 they are so thin-skinned that you cannot do it ; but 
 you can order an artizan to do a thing, and he will do 
 do it like a man ; but drill does not really go down 
 with those to whom you have to say, "if you please, 
 sir ?" Captain Caldccott got up a company of watch- 
 makers at Coveutry ; they are about 80 strong ; the 
 company is composed entirely of watchmakers, work- 
 ing watchmakers, and they are the best company in 
 the county ; they always turn out the best for drill, 
 and they always muster the strongest ; they shoot the 
 best, and they seem to do everything the best ; in 
 fact they do it in that style that a soldier does it ; the
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FOKCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 157 
 
 men soera to undorstaud it, and they do everything in 
 a workmanlike sort of way. 
 
 377d. Is tliere any difficulty in obtaining their sub- 
 scriptions ? — The captain of the company, 1 expect, 
 has to make up a good deal ; I know that he took 14 
 members into his company a mouth ago, and ho 
 clothed every one of them. 
 
 3776. Do you lind that the volunteers come in 
 pretty readily ? — The Commission will be able to 
 judge from what was the number of the members on 
 the muster roll ou the 1st of August I860, 1861, and 
 1862. In 1860, on the 1st of August our strength 
 was 346; on the 1st of August 1861 our strength 
 was 604 ; and on the 1st of April 1862 it was 656, so 
 that it will be seen we are increasing. 
 
 3777. (Major- Gen. Ei/rc.) That does not look 
 like great distress or that the men are unable to pay? — 
 When you come to look at the number of the unpaid 
 subscriptions it will be seen that there are ai'rears of 
 subscriptions, and I will state to what extent. In 
 Coventry, 48/. lOs. ; in Warwick, 30/.: in Leamington, 
 nothing; in Stratford-upon-Avon, 16/. 12,?. 6(/. ; Nun- 
 eaton, 17/. 3s.; the total amount being 112/. os. 6c?. 
 subscriptions not paid. 
 
 3778. (Chairman.) Is that a copy of the return 
 that has been sent in that you hold in your hand ? — 
 This is an analysis of the whole battalion, in fact, just 
 the same as if it were a consolidated battalion. I 
 have an account of every company here and what it 
 has cost. 
 
 3779. ( Viscount Hardingc.') Did you say that you 
 would reconniiend the volunteers, in time of peace, to 
 be provided with knapsacks? — No, I think not in 
 time of peace ; I think they would be in their way. 
 
 3780. (Major-Gen. E)/re.) Are your arms kept in 
 a central depot, or are they in the custody of the in- 
 di^-idual members ? — Each corps has got an armoury, 
 and each armoury is in charge of an individual, and 
 every arm is kept in that armoury. 
 
 3781. You have spoken of a considerable pro- 
 portion of the corps not having had musketry prac- 
 tice ; supposing your corps to be used as light troops, 
 to take out-post duties and to be marksmen, which 
 would be almost the only duties of the volunteers in 
 a case of necessity, what would you do with those 
 men who had not received musketry instruction ? — I 
 presume that it would be impossible to take those 
 men into the field without some short warning suffi- 
 cient to make them equal to the best in the battalion. 
 
 3782. What time would it take do you think to do 
 that ? — A couple of months. 
 
 3783. (Sir G. A. JVetheraU.) Do you think that 
 the facility with which your men can leave their 
 corps at all affects them? — Nothing of any conse- 
 quence ; we have had some men leave, but very few, 
 except for the purposes of going to other places to 
 work ; in foot, I think there is a sort of feeling among 
 the population generally that the men should not go. 
 I think that a man would lose caste to a great extent 
 among his fellow townsmen. 
 
 3784. (Col. MacMiirdo.) In your milit.ary experi- 
 ence in drilling men, do you consider, liearing in 
 mind that the Enfield rifle is a very modern inven- 
 tion, that musketr}'- instruction is absolutely necessary 
 foi* a soldier in the field ? — Most decidedly. 
 
 378.5. How came it then that we fought our battles 
 with muskets ? — Because we got to close quarters ; 
 but they will now fire at much longer ranges than 
 they used to do, and the party that does not will suffer 
 most fearfully before they can get to the point of the 
 bayonet. 
 
 3786. Suppose that an army took the field com- 
 posed of men all instructed in musketry, and that, as 
 in the Crimea, in the course of a few months about 
 two-thirds of that army pass through the liospitals, 
 and that the army had then to bo recruited from home 
 by what are called in the army 40 days' drill men, 
 you cannot suppose, I presume, that those men could 
 have passed through a course of musketry instruction 
 in that time ? — Yes, they would ; they would get 
 them through a short course. Even a corps of 
 
 militia that is now embodied only for 28 days get, 
 most ol' them, tluough a short course of musketry in- 
 struct ion I'ven in 28 days. 
 
 3787. Does that siiort coin-se of musketry instruc- 
 tion make a man wliat you consider he ought to be iii 
 the field ? — No, certaiidy not. 
 
 3788. Do you thiidi that a volunteer in two months 
 could bo sufficiently instructed in musketry to take 
 the field ? — I believe that any man ought to be. I 
 believe that any drill who jirofesses to be a drill 
 ought to take any men and make tliem in two months 
 fit to do anything from the plough-field. 
 
 3789. Fit for the line of liattle ? — Fit for anything, 
 in two months ; I do not mean one drill a day, but to 
 make them work six hours a day, as if they were 
 recruits in the army. 
 
 3790. Adverting to that part of your evidence 
 which had reference to a repoi't that the Government 
 intended to issue cloth at contract jn-icas, did you 
 receive a circular from the War Office, or does 
 Colonel Scott receive them ? — He receives them all ; 
 I rarely see them. 
 
 3791. You are not aware perhaps that that circular 
 was issued on the 15th of May ? — I do not know the 
 date, for I have not seen it ; but I saw the cloth in 
 Birmingham, several sorts of cloth. 
 
 3792. Is your opinion with respect to the working 
 of that circular derived from actual facts, or from tho 
 opinions of the tailors ? — From the opinions of the 
 corps at large, the captains of companies, and the 
 whole of the officers, non-commissioned officers, and 
 men of the corps. 
 
 3793. But they were merely opinions, not facts ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3794. You are not aware, perhaps, that as far as 
 the facts have been gathered by my in(iuiries, I find 
 that the privates' tunics are made up by the tailors 
 for only 2s. more than the Government pay ; in 1857 
 the Government paid %s. 'id. for making up privates' 
 tunics, and in Liverpool the tailors will make up 
 privates' tunics for volunteers at lO*. 6d., and the 
 other parts of their garments in the same proportion. 
 Do you think that your informants were correct in 
 what they stated ? — Our suit costs 4/. 6s. 6d. 
 
 3795. What does the tunic cost, for example ? — 
 The tunic, trousers, and cap cost 4/., leggings, 
 6s. 6d. They are always furnished in suits. I do not 
 think that any man has required to have any one 
 garment. 
 
 3796. From information obtained by me before 
 this circular was issued, it appeared that the tunics 
 cost upon the average from S2s. to 21., and a good 
 cloth tunic, according to this circular, could be sup- 
 plied to the volunteers for 22.5. ? — Yes, I should 
 think that it ought to be given out in suits ; not in 
 cloth, exactly the same as in the army, the army 
 clothing is all made by a scale. A regiment requires 
 new clothing, and the tailor sends in a return for so 
 many suits for men five feet six, and so many suits 
 for men five feet seven, and so on ; each suit to 
 measure certain dimensions round the breast, and 
 certain dimensions round the w.aist by sizes. 
 
 3797. Your evidence as to the working of this 
 system is not given from actual experience, but 
 merely from the opinions of others ? — Yes. 
 
 3798. (Viscount Hardingc.) You would propose, I 
 think, that the comm.inding officer shoidd make a 
 contract in the same w!iy that the War Office does 
 with a regimental contractor to furnish so many suits 
 of clothing to his corps ? — No, not for the com- 
 manding officer to do it. 
 
 3799. Then, who should make the contract ? — The 
 commanding officer with the Government, and keep a 
 debtor and creditor account between every corps and 
 the War Office. 
 
 3800. Do you mean that the commanding officer 
 should obtain the suits of clothing from the Govern- 
 ment factory, !vt Pimlico ? — Yes ; for the whole of the 
 volunteers, exactly the same as for the royal army ; 
 and a debtor and creditor account should be kept with 
 
 X 3 
 
 Lieut. 
 E. Eilwards. 
 
 1 July 18G2
 
 158 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEEOEE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut. 
 E. Edwards. 
 
 1 July 1862. 
 
 every corps in England, and they should send there 
 for everything ; a suit would come down, and with a 
 little alteration it would be made easily to fit, and 
 then charge the commanding otficer so much, and 
 send the bill in every quarter. 
 
 3801. You think that that plan would be preferable 
 to the commanding officer of the corps providing the 
 clothing himself ? — Yes ; it would be the simple prac- 
 tice of the army. 
 
 3802. {Maj. -Gen. Eyre.) Do you consider that your 
 corps is one that at all interferes with the recruiting 
 for the militia ? — No, not in the slightest degree 
 whatever ; I think that General Wetherall will bear 
 me out in that, for it was remarked at Warwick, at 
 
 our inspection, by the lord-lieutenant, there being pre- 
 sent the yeomanry cavalry, two regiments of militia, 
 and two regiments of volunteers, it was generally un- 
 derstood that out of the whole of the volunteers there 
 was not a single man in the militia that had ever been 
 in the volunteers, and on the other hand, there was 
 not a man in the volunteers who would ever have 
 been in the militia ; they are sa distinct a class ; the 
 only people that we are likely to clash with are the 
 yeomanry cavalry ; but it is very good natuiedly when 
 it happens. 
 
 3803. {Chairman.') Do they interfere with the 
 volunteers ? — Farmers would make capital rifle volun- 
 teers. 
 
 The witness withdrew, 
 
 Lieut. -Col. 
 R. Luard. 
 
 Lieut.-Colonel Richard Luakd examined. 
 
 3804. ( Chairman.) You are assistant inspector of 
 the south-eastern division ? — Yes. 
 
 3805. Do you find the corps of volunteers in that 
 division in a perfectly efficient state ? — It would be 
 using strong language to say so ; I should like to see 
 them in a more efficient state. I am afraid that they 
 are rather more slack in their attendance at drill than 
 they used to be. It is a rural district, and there is a 
 difficulty in getting them to attend. 
 
 3806. They are more slack, you think, in their 
 attendance ? — I think they are a little. 
 
 3807. Do you find that more than one half of the 
 strength of the corps assemble at your ovptl inspection? 
 — Certainly more ; I should say about two-thirds. If 
 there is a company of (50 I should say that about 40 
 attend. I do not say that they alway do so, but it is 
 generally so. I should say that that was about the rule, 
 and if I get 40 to attend I consider it is very fair. 
 
 3808. Do you inspect the corps once a year ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3809. Do you find in an administrative battalion that 
 there are any companies which fail in their attendance 
 altogether ? — I do not think that the companies do, 
 but some few subdivisions do ; at least, I may say, 
 that one or two subdivisions of an administrative 
 battalion do not attend battalion drill, and I think the 
 reason of that is the expense. 
 
 3810. Do you inspect the subdivisions separately ? 
 — ^Yes, I do ; I had to inspect one subdivision some 
 time ago, I went a long way to do so, and I found 
 nine men present, or some number like that. 
 
 3811. Have you any return of the number of men 
 who have passed through a course of musketry in- 
 struction ? — No, I have none. I have not anything 
 statistical with me at all. I came up fi-om Wimble- 
 don, and I did not know what I was to come here for ; 
 but I have not kept anything as to musketry in- 
 struction ; everything that I know about it I have 
 sent into the War Office, 
 
 3812. You can only speak of the efficiency of the 
 volunteers from what you have seen of them in 
 battalion drills ? — Yes, and company drills. 
 
 3813. How many corps are there in your division ? 
 — I cannot tell you exactly, but I have roughly about 
 9,000 men. As I said before, I have not any statistics 
 with me. 
 
 3814. In the course of your inspections do you 
 hear complaints made that the corps will not be able 
 to go on ? — It must be remembered that I am par- 
 ticularly cautioned not to incjuire into their financial 
 aifairs ; but from quietly talking with people upon 
 the subject, I think I may say that in the district 
 which 1 inspect they feel that the expense is greater 
 than they expected ; in the rural districts it is so. 
 
 3815. Do you find that there is a difficulty in 
 keeping up the number of officers in consequence of 
 the expense ? — I have not found that as to the officers, 
 for people like to be officers. I think that the captains 
 of corps find that it is expensive, and that they have 
 been put to more expense than they expected ; they 
 are always putting their hands into their pockets. 
 I think it is with regard to the men that the expense 
 
 is felt the most. The captains also find it expensive, 
 but I do not think that they oliject to that ; I think 
 that they like to be officers, and the desire to be 
 officers overcomes the expense except when they can- 
 not afford it. 
 
 3816. Do you think that occasional meetings at 
 division and brigade drills are of use ? — Yes, I think 
 so ; but I think that a battalion drill is of far more use. 
 Where they have a good commanding officer, the 
 battallion drill is very important ; they can learn 
 more in a battalion drill than they can in a brigade 
 drill. In a brigade drill the niceties of the thing 
 cannot be looked to so well. 
 
 3817. If it were thought desirable to assist the 
 volunteers, would it be possible to insist upon every 
 man who received assistance attending, at all events 
 on the day of inspection, at battalion di-ill, besides 
 other days ? — If you give assistance in kind, I think 
 you may do a great deal of good, but I think that 
 assistance given in money will be bad. 
 
 3818. How do you think the assistance should be 
 given ? — First of all I would give assistance to the 
 subdivisions, which are not now allowed non-com- 
 missioned officers as drill instructors. I would give 
 assistance by giving them a drill instructor, and I 
 would allow travelUng expenses for every bona fide 
 man of an administrative corps who attended a bat- 
 talion drill, because these things come very unfairly 
 upon them. Take, for example, Hampshire, the first 
 battalion ; the first corps belongs to Winchester, 
 where there is a capital drill ground. All the other 
 corps have to come to Winchester, and that is a very 
 heavy item of expense to them, for they have to pay 
 their travelling expenses, and I think it would be fair 
 for the Government to pay the bona fide travelling 
 expenses of those who attend a battalion drill. 
 
 3819. {Viscount Hardinge.) What do you mean 
 by a bona fide man ? — I mean every man who has 
 absolutely attended drill on parade that day, and who 
 is not a bugler or a bandsman ; a man in the ranks or 
 a non-commissioned officer, or other officer. 
 
 3820. Whether he was effective or not according 
 to the interpretation of the Act ? — He must be effec- 
 tive, or he would not be fit to go to his drill. I would 
 not have bandsmen counted, but I would have a 
 bugler per company. 
 
 f^ 3821. Is it not frequently the case in rural corps 
 that men attend battalion drills who are really not 
 effective, and not fit for the drill ?— I am afraid that 
 some few do ; they attend drills not so efficient as 
 they should be — if they are recruits we hope they 
 will become moi'e efficient. 
 
 3822. Would you p.ay the expenses of a man who 
 joined only once or twice a year, and was really 
 not effective ? — I would \>a.j the expenses of any 
 man who had attended at a battalion drill, and had 
 managed to keep up with the ranks. I would not 
 discourage the volunteers in any way. 
 
 3823. (Chairman.) It has been suggested to the 
 Commission that the expenses of no man should be 
 paid who does not come a distance beyond 5 miles ? 
 — I think that that is fair enough. I think that they
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 159 
 
 may very well walk five miles. I think that the 
 volunteers would not mind tluit. 
 
 3824. What amount per mile would you allow ? — 
 I would give them a j)enny a mile, the same that 
 you give the soldier;*. 
 
 3825. You would |)ropose that (here should bo a 
 certain sum allowed for travelling expenses to cvofy 
 man who lived lieyond five miles from tlie battalion 
 drill ground ? — Yes ; not for company drill. 
 
 3826. {Lieuf.-Col. Barttclnt.) When you say a 
 certain sum per man, do you mean that the money 
 should be paid to the commanding officers of the corps? 
 —Yes ; because they have to pay all the expenses, 
 and they do it as cheaply as tliey can by railway. 
 
 3827. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Early in this inquiry I 
 asked a commanding officer whether his men would 
 object to receive their travelling expenses, and he 
 scorned the notion of it, and said that they would not 
 do it ? — Perhaps in some corps they would rather uot; 
 but I am sure tliat a great many of the corps would 
 like to get anything they could. 
 
 3828. {Lieuf.-Col. Barttelot.) From your experience 
 in your south-eastern district, do you not think that 
 out of the 9,000 men that you have, over 8,000 of 
 them at auy rate would take the money ? — I thiuli that 
 the majority of them would ; I do not say 8,000, but 
 the majority of them would ; they would be very 
 h.ippy to accept any travelling expenses, or any other 
 expenses, that you could give them. I think that 
 there is also another way in which they might be 
 helped, and that is as to ranges. You have helped 
 them in some wa}^ and I think that all the expenses 
 of ranges might be fairly paid, because the unfairness 
 of the thing is, that some people get benefits and some 
 do not ; for instance, some corps are in the neighbour- 
 hood, perhaps, of a Government range, or they .are 
 on the sea coast, or near some place where they 
 have a fine high hill, where they can make a range 
 without expense ; whereas another corps has to go to 
 great expense, and the poorest corps ai'e often those 
 which have to go to the greatest expense. I think 
 that you might fairly pay the expenses, and do the 
 work either by sending down sappers or in some other 
 way. I think that every corps should come equally 
 into the field to shoot without the range costing them 
 anything. 
 
 3829. {Viscount Hardinge.) Do you think that the 
 Government should also defray the charges which are 
 now paid Ijy volunteers for targets ? — Yes. 
 
 3830. {Sir A. Campbell.) With regard to the rent 
 paid for the ranges themselves, do you think that the 
 Government should relieve the volunteers from that 
 also ? — Yes, I think so ; I think that every volunteer 
 should go and have his shooting on equal terms ; that 
 is to say, for nothing ; the Government should then 
 do it as cheaply as they can, whether they will have 
 this range or that, or wliether they will have a range 
 for 10/. a year, or 100/. a year. 
 
 3831. Do you not think that when a Government 
 officer goes to make an arrangement as to the rent, 
 that a very much larger sum would probably be 
 asked of him than of the captain of a volunteer com- 
 pany ? — I cannot give an opinion upon that, but of 
 course that is human nature, and it would be a Go- 
 vernment arrangement. 
 
 3832. ( Viscount Hardinge.) With reg.ard to as- 
 sistance to be given in the way of clothing, would 
 you recommend that the clothing should be made up, 
 and should be issued by the Government ? — I think 
 that if you could give the volunteers assistance in .all 
 those other ways, it might occur that they would not 
 require clothing. If you gave clothing, I think you 
 should give it to all those who would receive it ; but 
 I think that many would reclothe themselves ; and if 
 you once gave it, you must give one uniform to the 
 whole. I would suggest that a blowse and a cap, and 
 a pair of trousers should be given. 
 
 3833. You would not leave it to the commanding 
 officers to provide them ? — No. 
 
 3834. You would prefer that the clothing should 
 be issued by the Government ?— Yes. I do not know 
 
 whether it would not make it nocessaiy to increase 
 the Pimlico wareliouse tremendously, and that there- 
 fore it would 1)0 better to say, there is so much a suit, 
 and you must clothe yourselves. 
 
 383o. Do you think there would be no difficulty in 
 getting recruits to wear the clothing of those mem- 
 bers who had left the corps, or had resigned ? 
 
 I do not know about that ; but I should not think 
 so. If it was a good dress, I think there would 
 bo no difficulty in that case if it were made suffi- 
 ciently loose to fit all comers. I think it must be a 
 blowso. 
 
 3836. Do you think that the drill instructors are 
 sufficiently paid ?— I h.ave not lieard any complaints 
 from them. 
 
 3837. Have you he.ard no complaints about their being 
 required to clean the arms without receiving any ad- 
 ditional allowance ?— No, I have not ; they have not 
 told me anything of that kind. I know one serjeant 
 who drills a corps at a distance, and he wants more 
 money. 
 
 3838. Do you think that the officers in your 
 district, generally speaking, are efficient, .and up to 
 their work ?— I think that the officers are the weak 
 point of the volunteer movement. 
 
 3839. Do you see your way to making them 
 more efficient? — I cannot say that I do much; 
 there are some to whom I give the greatest credit, 
 who seem to know as much as if they had been 
 in the line for ye.ars, but there are others in the 
 regiments who do not know their drill. 
 
 3840. Does your observation apply to cai)tains and 
 
 subalterns, or generally to field officers as well ? 
 
 More to the captains and subalterns than to the field 
 officers. I think that the field officers are generally 
 more zealous, that is my notion about it. 
 
 3841. You do not think that it would be possible 
 to have some sort of examination in particular districts 
 to be conducted by a board, in the same way as in 
 the militia ? — I do not know how that would do ; I 
 do not know how it is done in the militia. I did not 
 know that they were ever examined. 
 
 3S42. Do you think it would be possible to in- 
 troduce any such system for the volunteers ?— I think 
 there would be a good deal of difficulty about it. I 
 have not turned my attention to that before ; but it 
 seems to me that local reasons might prevent any- 
 thing of that sort ; a man may get on very well with 
 his corps by putting his hand into his pocket, and it 
 m.ay go on very well, although he is not a very good 
 officer. 
 
 3843. Do you think that the number of days' drill 
 which constitute an effective might be reduced or 
 increased ? — I have heard many say that they thought 
 they might attend a fewer number of drills. I think 
 that the number is few enough to make them drilled 
 soldiers ; whether it interferes with their occuiiations 
 more than it should is another question, but I think 
 before a man is declared to be thoroughly efficient 
 the drills should not be less than they are now, and 
 if every volunteer were to go through an examination 
 before he finished his .attendances at drill, I think 
 they are more than would be sufficient ; you might 
 say once every half year. 
 
 3844. Do you think that the drill instructors, 
 generally speaking, are up to their work ? — As a 
 rule I think they are. I have not had to find any 
 fault with them, taking them as a whole ; some are, 
 of course, better than others. 
 
 384.5. {Sir A. Campbell.) You appear to think 
 that after a volunteer has once become thoroughly 
 acqu.ainted with drill, he might be allowed to pass 
 through a smaller number of annual drills than he 
 does now ? — Yes. 
 
 3846. Can you suggest any means by which the 
 efficiency of a man should be ascert.ained ? — That is 
 a very difficult question ; it is very difficult to carry 
 th.at out unless the volunteers themselves will consent 
 to it. If every volunteer would say before he becomes 
 a volunteer, " I will attend a sufficient number of 
 " times to enable me to pass an examination in order 
 
 X 4 
 
 Lieul.-Col. 
 li. Luard. 
 
 1 July 1862.
 
 160 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut. -Col. 
 H. Luard. 
 
 1 July 1862. 
 
 " that afterwards I may attend less often," then it 
 ■would be all right, hut it is delicate ground, I think. 
 
 3847. Supposing they consented, with whom would 
 you lodge the power of passing them ? — I think with 
 the adjutant of the battalion ; I think he would be 
 competent to decide wliether a man should remain in 
 the ranks or not. 
 
 3848. For that purpose would the adjutant be re- 
 sponsible to his eomniauding officer or to the assistant 
 inspector of the district ? — I should make him 
 responsible to his superior, and as long as he is 
 responsible to the War Office he would be responsible 
 to his superior; his commanding otficer is his superior, 
 and the commanding officer of the battalion would 
 have nothing to do with the commanding officers of 
 the different corps ; I am talking now of an adminis- 
 trative battalion. 
 
 3849. Are you of opinion that the powers of the 
 officer commanding an administrative battalion are at 
 present sufficient ? — They have not got much power, 
 I think. 
 
 3850. Do you think that they require more ? — I do 
 not know what sort of power you could give them ; 
 if you could give it to them, I thiuk it would be 
 good. 
 
 3851. {Col. 3Iac3Iurdo.) You say that they have 
 not got power ; have they not got power to command 
 on parade ? — Yes. 
 
 3852. If anything occurs there contrary to the 
 duties of the volunteer under the Act of Parliament, 
 has he not power to call upon the officer commanding 
 that volunteer to put the law in force ? — Yes. 
 
 3853. Is not that power ? — Yes ; but he cannot 
 act as a commanding officer of a regiment would ; the 
 power is very different. 
 
 3854. You are aware that the object of the 
 Government, in appointing an officer to command an 
 administrative battalion, is for purposes of drill, and 
 not for the formation of the corps ? — No ; that is 
 under the commanding officer of the corps. 
 
 3855. It is merely for the purpose of imparting 
 military instruction to an aggregate number of corps ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 3856. (Chairman.) He has no power over the 
 non-commissioned officers of any company belonging 
 to his administrative battalion, except on parade ? — 
 The commanding officer then steps in. 
 
 3857. Supposing the colonel of an administrative 
 Ijattalion visited the companies separately, and he 
 saw a non-commissioned officer who was not efficient, 
 would he have any power to dismiss him ? — I think 
 that he could put it so strongly to the commanding 
 officer of the cor]-), that he would have to make the 
 man efficient or dismiss him. 
 
 3858. Ought he not to have power to dismiss him ? 
 — I do not know. 
 
 3859. (Lord Overs/one.) Is it not the fact, that 
 the principal power which a commanding officer of 
 an administrative battalion has must be exercised 
 through a subordinate officer ? — Through the officer 
 commanding the corps very much. 
 
 3860. Do you think that a power can be so 
 efficient which must be exercised through the medium 
 of anotlier officer as a power that is exercised 
 directly ?— Not so efficient ; but I am not sure that 
 the volunteers would put up with an authority with 
 whom they had nothing to do. I mean, that a man 
 goes and volunteers to serve under Captain Smith, 
 but he does not wish to be under Colonel .Tones' 
 thumb. 
 
 3861. Your o])iuiou, I think, is this, that the power 
 vested in the colonel commanding an administrative 
 battalion is defective, Imt you cannot suggest a mode 
 by which that evil might be remedied ? — Yes. 
 
 3862. ( Viscount JIardiuge.) A lieutenant-colonel 
 has complete control over the drill instructors, as they 
 are under the JIutiny Act bound to obey him as their 
 superior officer ; is not that so ? — I think there has 
 been some clashing as to the drill instructors being 
 under the command of the connnanding officer of the 
 battalion, or under the officer communUiug the corps. 
 
 I think it has been maintained that the drill in- 
 structor is under the officer commanding the corps, 
 and under him only. 
 
 3863. 15ut being subject to the Mutiny Act, he 
 must be suljject to the lieutenant-colonel's authority, 
 he lieing his superior officer ? — That may be right, 
 l»t 1 do not think that that is thoroughly understood ; 
 indeed I think that many commanding officers of corps 
 consider that the drill Serjeant is under them inde- 
 pendently of the comnuinding officer of the battalion ; 
 that is the idea of some of them. 
 
 3864. (Sir A. Campbell.) Independently of the 
 adjutant also ? — The adjutant can only report to the 
 otficer commanding the corps that the drill serjeant 
 did not do so and so. 
 
 3865. (Major- Gen. El/re.) What power would you 
 have in that case ? — I should merely report it to the 
 War Office and put the man imder arrest if there 
 was anything serious. 
 
 3866. (Col. Mac3Iiirdo.) Bearing in miud the 
 organization of an administrative battalion, and that 
 companies are sometimes 20 and even 40 miles dis- 
 tant from headquarters where the officer command- 
 ing the volunteers is, the operation of the authority 
 of the commanding officer would be more direct if 
 that authority were vested in the officer commanding 
 a company ? — I think I have stated that I thought 
 it would be very difficult to carry out that as a 
 volunteer who volunteers to serve imder Captaia 
 Smith would not wish to serve under Colonel Jones. 
 
 3867. Ijut from geographical considerations he 
 could not have the means of exercising that power 
 directly ? — He could if lie visited the place and saw 
 that a man did anything wrong. 
 
 3868. But that would necessitate his continual 
 visits ? — Yes ; and some colonels might do so. 
 
 3869. (Major-Gen. Ei/rc.) Do you mean to say 
 that a volunteer enrols merely that he shall serve 
 under a particular captain ? — I think there is a great 
 deal of feeling of that sort amougst tliem. 
 
 3870. (Viscount Hardinge.) Supposing a case, 
 which probably would rarelj' occur, that the lieutenant- 
 colonel goes to inspect a company, and the captain 
 being on parade supersedes his adjutant, and that a 
 man who is insubordinate in the ranks insults the 
 lieutenant-colonel, the lieutenant-colonel has no power 
 to dismiss that man on the spot ? — No lieutenant- 
 colonel in the ai'my lias power to dismiss a man on 
 the spot ; he must put him under arrest. 
 
 3871. But the captain of a company has power to 
 dismiss him on the spot if he thinks fit ? — That is a 
 greater power than is accorded to any officer in the 
 army, and I should say it is a power which ought not 
 to be in the hands of the coinmanding officer of a 
 corps. 
 
 3872. (Lord Oversfone.) You have stated, I think, 
 that about 9,000 volunteers come under your inspec- 
 tion ? — Yes, speaking roughly. 
 
 3873. The first duty imposed upon this Commission 
 is to ascertain the present condition of the volunteer 
 force, what is your opinion as to the present condition 
 of the volunteer force that comes under your inspec- 
 tion ? — I should say that it has attained a very fair 
 state of efficiency. 
 
 3874. Do you think that it would be'in an efficient 
 state for useful service in case it was suddenly called 
 into active operations ? — I do; I think that a very 
 few days, if they were actually called together, would 
 make them very efticiont. 
 
 3875. What is your opinion of the condition of the 
 volunteer force, as to their clothing ? — I think that 
 the clothing is very much worn out, and that they 
 want new clothing. 
 
 3876. Do you think there will be any difficulty in 
 getting the clothing renewed ? — -Yes, I think they 
 will find a difficulty in renewing their clothing. 
 
 3877. Do you anticipate such a difficulty in re- 
 newing the clothing as might make it expedient to 
 consider the propriety of affording some assistance 
 on the part of the Government ? — If j-ou gave them 
 assistance iu the other respects which I have pointed
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORf'E IN GRH\T BRIT.MX. 
 
 ii;i 
 
 out, pcrlinps tliat may be uiiiiocessary. I look iipou 
 that as I III' last tliiiip; that I woukl give tliciii assist- 
 ance in kind in. I wonhl li-y all the olher things 
 before I gave tlicm tliat. 
 
 3878. Uo yon believe that the arms and accoutre- 
 ments arc at the present time in a satisfactory state ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 3879. Evidence of a contrary character has been 
 given by some of the witnesses examined before the 
 Commission ? — I have not found anything to find 
 fault with in the arms as a rule ; as to tlie accoutre- 
 ments, some are better than others ; I mean some arc 
 better for service than other.s. 
 
 3880. Do you think, generally, as to the arms and 
 accoutrements; that the volunteers would be able to 
 turn out for useful service? — Yes, I do, most 
 thoroughly. 
 
 3881. As to their discipline, do you think that 
 that is now in sucli an advanced state as to enable 
 the volunteers to act as an etlicient body in actual 
 service ? — I think it will improve constantly, and I 
 think that a very little more jivactice would improve 
 it. I do not mean that tliey would be perfect if they 
 went into the field to-morrow. 
 
 3882. Supposing they were suddenly called out, 
 do you think that within a short time, say two or 
 three weeks, the force under your inspection would 
 be in a state of etficiency as to their discipline and as 
 to their arms, and their capacity to use them ? — -I 
 think they would be ready to fight the enemy in three 
 weeks. 
 
 3883. Does your experience lead you to think that 
 there are any causes seriously menacing a deteriora- 
 tion in the efficiency of the volunteer force ? — I think 
 they are a little slacker than they were in their at- 
 tendance, and I think that (he expense has to do 
 with it ; and I think also, that their having arrived 
 at a certain degree of efficiency, leads them to think 
 that they know more than they really do know, and 
 that is their reason for attending drill less. 
 
 3884. You think that there is some little diminu- 
 tion in the active feeling which led to the organization 
 of the force, and some little diminution of efficiencj^ 
 arising from over self-confidence ? — I think so. 
 
 3885. Are you prepared to suggest any measures 
 or steps that might be taken to oliviate these dangers ? 
 — I have heard .already of something. 
 
 3886. You refer, I presume, first of all, to pecuniary 
 assistance in some form or other ? — I think that 
 if you give assistance at all, assistance in kind is what 
 you should give. 
 
 3887. I think it is your opinion that some further 
 assistance as to drill instructors, and as to travelling 
 expenses when going to battalion drills, and also for 
 the purpose of providing ranges is necessary ? — Yes. 
 
 3888. With those aids, do you think that the 
 efficiency of the volunteer force may be satisfactorily 
 maintained ? — I think so ; and I should rather hope 
 with such aids it would not be necessary to give them 
 clothing. I consider clothing the last thing that 
 ought to be given to them. 
 
 3889. Do you not think that the question of a more 
 organized system of providing drill instructors is one 
 of great importance V — It depends upon the system. 
 I think that it would be a great improvement on the 
 present system to put all the Serjeants of a battalion 
 under the adjutant, to let them be directly under 
 him, be drilled at first by him at his headquarters, 
 
 so that all the companies of one battalion may diiU 
 exactly alike ; and to let them be sent by him 1o the 
 diflercMl corps ol' the liallalion at his and the com- 
 manding olficer of the battalion's discretion. IJv this 
 means fewer serjeants might sullicr ; but some little 
 travelling expense would be incurred. 
 
 3890. Do you not think it verv desirable that by 
 some means a more ready and complete supjily of 
 efficient drill instructors should be ])rovided ? — I 
 have not heard of many complaints of the difliculty 
 of finding drill instructors. I have heard a few ; but 
 that is the only way in which I can answer the 
 question ; in my district I do not find that many 
 people complain that they cannot get drill instructors, 
 but a few have. 
 
 3891. {Maji>r-(>f'}i. Eijrc.) In your ]iosition, have 
 you any diflicnlties to contend with ? — I tliink I get 
 on pretty smoothly. 
 
 3892. Have you all the [lOwer that you thiidi you 
 ought to have ? — If they were a, little more liberal in 
 their allowances for travelling ex|)enses and those 
 sort of things I should be better i)leased ; they treat 
 me very shabbily on that score. 
 
 3893. {Sir A. Cainphell.) Your functions, I pre- 
 sume, consist in receivings verifying, and forwarding 
 returns, and in ins|)ecting the various corps in your 
 district once a year or oftener ? — I cannot say that I 
 verify the returns. I receive and forward them, and 
 I make inspections. 
 
 3894. I suppose you see that they arc in the 
 proper form ? — If I see anything glaringly wrong 1 
 return them, but I have no means of verifying those 
 I'eturns ; they an- merely numerical returns. I have 
 nothing to do with the nominal returns ; they come 
 in once a year to the War Office. 
 
 3895. Has an assistant inspector an}' other duties 
 besides those I have enumerated ? — He has occa- 
 sionally to visit the ranges, and so on ; if there is any 
 row I am sent down. 
 
 3896. {Major Harcourt.) You think that it would 
 be more desirable to give assistance to the volunteers 
 in kind ? — Yes. 
 
 3897. For what reason do you think so ? — Because 
 if you gave the money, the means of spending that 
 money must be investigated ; and if I had, as 
 inspector, to investigate that matter, I think it would 
 be much more than I could do. 
 
 3898. Do you say this chiefly with reference to 
 yourself and to the work at the War Ofiicc rather 
 than with reference to the volunteers ? — I think it 
 will affect the volunteers very much, for you must lay 
 down the rule whetlier they shall wear feathers and 
 expensive uniforms or not, and whether they shall 
 have a band or not, and I think it would so much 
 hamper the volunteer movement that they would say, 
 " We cannot obey all these rules, we must have some 
 " little way of our own," and I think it woidd thus 
 interfere with the movement. 
 
 3899. {Lieut.- Col. Barttelot.) Supposing aid was 
 given to the volunteers, do you not think that if 
 certain things were recognized by the War Office, 
 certain legitimate expenses, that it would be the best 
 way to give the money to the commanding oflicer, 
 making him responsible for the money being applied 
 in the way that was specified by the War Office ? — ■ 
 No. I do not like money at all ; I should like as- 
 sistance, if given, to be given in kind, but no nu)uey. 
 
 Lieut.-('i>t, 
 K. Ltinrd. 
 
 1 July 1869. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Lieut.-Colonel Joseph Hudson examined. 
 
 3900. {Chairman.) I believe you are superinten- 
 dent of the Royal Army Clothing Factory at Fimlico? 
 ' — I am. 
 
 3901. You have been consulted about the issue of 
 cloth to the volunteers ? — Yes, Iiy Mr. Ramsay, and, 
 I believe, by the wish of Lord de Grey. 
 
 3902. If cloth is issued by the Government, do you 
 
 intend to confine the issue of that cloth to particular 
 colours, or shall you issue all colours that nuiy be 
 required? — It is intended, I believe, by the Secretary 
 of State to conline the issue to four colour.s, one grey, 
 one scarlet, one rifle green, and blue. 
 
 3903. Do you consider tliat there would be a con- 
 siderable saving if that cloth was issued at cost price 
 
 Y 
 
 Lieiil.-Cul. 
 J. Hudavn.
 
 162 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lient.-Col. 
 J. Hudson. 
 
 1 July 1862. 
 
 to the %'olunteers? — I think that the volunteers would 
 get a better material and more durable clothing, and, 
 I think, a little cheaper. 
 
 3904. We have been informed by several witnesses 
 that if that issue of cloth is made, the persons who 
 make up the clothing would charge a considerable sum 
 in addition for the making up as a profit, and tliat in 
 fact the volunteers would not gain much if cloth were 
 issued by the Government ? — I think at first they 
 might not gain much advantage, but I believe that 
 the competition in this country is so great that the 
 
 volunteers would eventually find they could get their 
 clothing made at a very reasonable price. 
 
 3905. You issue clothing from your department 
 for the army made up ? — Yes ; for the army only. 
 
 3906. What do you think that the volunteers' cloth- 
 ing would cost, if issued by the Government made up 
 in a complete set ? — I have a return here of the cost 
 of the four cloths, the patterns now worn by the volun- 
 teers vary very much, and the cost of the clothing 
 would vaiy a little with those patterns. 
 
 The witness delivered in the same, which is as follows :- 
 
 TUNICS. 
 
 From Scarlet 
 Cloth at 8i'. llj(f. 
 
 From Rifle 
 Green at 9«. 2d. 
 
 From Grey 
 at 6s. l^d. 
 
 From Blue 
 
 No. 3 Cloth 
 
 at Ss. 5id. 
 
 ^a yards tunic cloth 
 
 ^ yard facing cloth at 7s. 3d. 
 
 I yard silver cord at Is. 9d. 
 
 ||- yard drab jean at Sd. - 
 
 \^\ yards selesia at Qd. 
 
 -^ yard buckram at l^d. - 
 
 ^ yard canvas at G^d. 
 
 Twist . - "- - 
 
 Silk .... 
 
 Tape, stay ... 
 
 Thread, red - - , - 
 
 Thread, white - - - 
 
 Hooks and eyes 
 
 Making - - - 
 Cutting - - . 
 
 Establishment - 
 
 If with silver braid - 
 
 £ s. d. 
 
 11 in 
 
 
 
 
 9i 
 Oi 
 
 
 
 
 Qi 
 
 H 
 
 21 
 
 0| 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 Oi 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 Qi 
 
 2| 
 
 1 2i 
 
 1 2 5f 
 
 12 2| 
 
 
 
 
 3f 
 
 4i 
 
 9i 
 
 Oi 
 
 Oi 
 
 li 
 
 2i 
 
 0| 
 
 1 
 
 Oi 
 
 0^ 
 
 3 6 
 
 6 
 
 2| 
 
 £ s. 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 d. 
 2 
 
 
 3| 
 
 4i 
 
 9i 
 
 0^ 
 
 0^ 
 
 li 
 
 2i 
 
 0| 
 
 1 
 
 Oi 
 
 oj 
 
 3 6 
 
 6 
 
 2| 
 
 
 
 1 5i 
 
 1 2 9 
 
 16 41 
 
 18 8 
 
 d. 
 
 H 
 
 
 31 
 4i 
 9i 
 
 £ s. 
 
 11 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 oi 
 
 Oi 
 
 lA 
 
 2A 
 
 Oi 
 
 1 
 
 Oi 
 
 o| 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 6 
 6 
 
 2| 
 
 19 6i 
 
 1 1 9| 
 
 Great coat made from grey cloth at 4s. l^d. per yard 
 
 s. d. 
 19 8i 
 
 Trousers, grey, from cloth at 6s. l^d. per yard 
 Do., green, from cloth at 9s. o|rf. per yard 
 Do., blue, from cloth at 7s. llfrf. per yard 
 Do., grey, from cloth at 4s. l^d. per yard 
 
 s. 
 
 d. 
 
 11 
 
 n 
 
 15 
 
 H 
 
 14 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 5# 
 
 3907. Upon what ground is it wished to confine 
 yourself to four colours ? — It was so decided by the 
 Secretai-y of State. 
 
 3908. Are those the four colours predominant in 
 the clothing of the volunteer force ? — Yes, I think so, 
 excepting the greys. Of the greys I think there are 
 upwards of 9 or 10 difl'ereut shades. 
 
 3909. {Sir A. Campbell.) The grey that you allude 
 to is the grey selected by the committee which sat 
 here ? — Yes : I think it is Lord Elcho's colour. 
 
 3910. (Chairman.) How long ought these uni- 
 forms to wear, four years ? — Not so long as that if 
 they wear them frequently. The cloth that we give to 
 the army only lasts about a year, or a year and a half. 
 In the foot guards it lasts two years, but I think not 
 more than two years. 
 
 3911. {Major- Ge7i. Eyre.) But the army are 
 employed every day ; the volunteers are supposed 
 to have only a small number of drills in the year ? — 
 They do not work so hard as the army, but still the 
 clothing wears out by dust and moth, even if it is 
 put by. 
 
 3912. {Viscount Hardinge.) How long does the 
 clothing of a militia man last ? — Five years. 
 
 3913. He has 21 or 28 days' (h-ill in a year? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3914. An effective volunteer has 24 ? — Yes ; but 
 I think he does more work than that ; the volunteers 
 in many instances drill nearly once a week. 
 
 3915. {Col. 3Iac3Iurdo.) If clothing was issued 
 to the volunteers, is it your opinion that the cloth 
 and the trimmings should be issued, and that an 
 allowance should be given to the volunteers to make 
 up the clothing ? — Yes ; but the cost of the establish- 
 ment and labour would be so great, that it would be 
 a matter of consideration whether it would not be 
 better to make an allowance to cover the cost of x\w 
 trimmings. 
 
 3916. The Government do not find the cloth now. 
 but they will issue it at a certain price ? — Yes ; they 
 will provide it on payment being made. 
 
 3917. Does the cost that you have calculated 
 include 5 per cent, for establishment ? — Oulv on the 
 cloth. 
 
 3918. Is that 5 per cent, sufficient to cover all the 
 expenses ? — Yes, and that is the usual per-centage. 
 
 3919. {Chairman.) Does the cost of the different 
 coloured cloths, enumerated in the return you have 
 handed in, include the 5 per cent. ? — I think that the 
 scarlet cloth actually cost 8s. 8rf. I see it put down 
 in the Government return at 8s. \\\d., so that in that 
 case it includes the 5 per cent.
 
 TO INQUIRB INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 163 
 
 3920. {Major- Gen. Eyre.) Is not 5 per cent, ii 
 very large per-centage ? — That rate was determined 
 upon by the clothing department in Pall Mall, with 
 tlie approval of tlie Secretary of State; and it is diffi- 
 cult to sa}', without further experience, whether it 
 could be done for less. 
 
 3921. {Viscount Hardingr.^ NA'hiit would be a fair 
 allowance for making up ? — Zs. 6r/. for making the 
 (nuic ; that is the price we pay at tlie Government 
 factory; a contractor would have to put his profit on 
 all those prices that I have put down. 
 
 3922. What would a contractor charge ? — I think 
 he would expect fully 12 per cent, as his profit ; the 
 prices I have put down are exactly what it would 
 cost the Government if the clothes were made at the 
 Government factory. 
 
 3923. ( Col. MacMiirdo.) You do not suppose that 
 the volunteers could get a tailor to make their tunics 
 up for 3«, <3d. ? — I think that Mr. Taite, of Limerick, 
 would do it at that price. 
 
 3924. {Chairman.') You have put down the trou- 
 sers at different prices ; do those prices include the 
 making up ? — Yes, everything. 
 
 3925. ( Col. MacMurdo.) Would it not be better to 
 
 issue the cloth for clothing, and make an allowance 
 for the trimmings and making up ? — Yes. 
 
 3926. Is that the better system, or that the Govern- 
 ment should issue the trimmings with the cloth ? — 
 I think that the Government would liave a difficulty 
 in doing that, as all the volunteer patterns would 
 require different trimmings for almost all the dilfereut 
 patterns of uniform. 
 
 3927. You think that the cloth simply should be 
 issued, and an allowance made for trimmings and 
 making up ? — Yes. 
 
 3928. {Lord Onrstone.) 1 understand you to say 
 that the Government, should this Commission be 
 disposed to recommend it, would be prejjared to issue 
 cloth, but not made up into clothing ? — The clothing 
 establishment could not at present undertake to issue 
 the clothing made up. 
 
 3929. ( Viscount Hardinge.') Would there be any 
 difficulty in the War Office, supposing it were deemed 
 advisable, contracting with certain houses to provide 
 the uniforms made up for the differeni corps until 
 your premises at Pimlico were enlarged, if they should 
 ever be so enlarged ? — I think that the Government 
 could contract as they do for the army, but this is a 
 question which could only be settled by the clothing 
 department at Pall Mall. 
 
 Licul.-CnI. 
 J. Hutlsun. 
 
 •1 July 1862. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Colonel Charles Bingham examined. 
 
 3930. ( Chairman.) You are Deputy Adjutant- 
 General of Artillery ? — Yes. 
 
 3931. {Major Harcourt.) Do you find any diffi- 
 culty in obtaining reports from artillery volunteers, 
 or do you know of any difficulties being found by 
 the commanding officers of districts ? — None that I 
 know of. 
 
 3932. On the occasion of divisional field days, 
 would the authorities be disposed to allow the use of 
 guns, where practicable, to artillery volunteers, with 
 a special allowance of blank ammunition, and place 
 them under the command of royal artillery officers ? 
 — This has been done on several occasions ; viz., 
 at Brighton, Bristol, in Devonshire, and I think some 
 other places. The War Office has always sanctioned 
 an increase in the number of rounds of ammunition 
 on these occasions. 
 
 3933. Will the authorities be likely to recognize 
 the value of the volunteer cattle movement for moving 
 guns of position on the coast ? — Yes ; and I am satis- 
 fied His Royal Highness the Commander-in-chief 
 thinks that the power of making use of all the horses 
 in the district is one of the liest arrangements that 
 could be made. Captain Darby has organized Sussex 
 in that way, and it is, perhaps, the most useful 
 organization that could be made. 
 
 3934. Would it be desirable that that should be 
 extended as much as possible along the coasts ? — 
 Yes, undoubtedly; and also as to bullocks; all the 
 18-pounder batteries in the counties where bullocks 
 are to be had have been fitted with pole draught for 
 the purpose. 
 
 3935. Do you think that the artillery volunteers 
 might fairly ask for the carriage of ammunition for 
 practice where the magazine is unavoidably at a great 
 distance from the battery ? — I do not quite under- 
 stand the question ; the magazines ought properly to 
 be in the batteries. 
 
 3936. I mean in cases where there is no provision 
 made for expense magazines ? — Then I think it 
 should be the same as in the Royal Artillery ; it 
 should be brought to them free of expense. 
 
 3937. Do you think that the artillery volunteers 
 might fairly ask for the construction, where practi- 
 cable of expense magazines, to save the inconvenience 
 and danger of such carriage ? — I should say that 
 they ought to have expense magazines, or that all 
 ammunition be conveyed free to the volunteers. In 
 almost all the districts, as far as I know, these 
 
 magazines are in the batteries, and the ammunition 
 is deposited in them. 
 
 3938. Is not that where the batteries are the pro- 
 perty of the Royal Artillery ? — No ; it is so in the 
 volunteer batteries too. 
 
 3939. Do you think that the artillery volunteers 
 might ask for the construction of store-rooms for 
 Government stores where store-rooms of the Royal 
 Artillery are not available ?— Yes ; there was a 
 question some time ago, and it was arranged by the 
 War Office that where the volunteers built their o.vn 
 batteries they were to provide magazines and store- 
 rooms, and a residence for the gunner in charge. 
 
 3940. Do you think that the volunteer artillery 
 might fairly ask to be relieved from that expense ? — 
 Undoubtedly it would be for the good of the Govern- 
 ment that the stores should be preserved. 
 
 3941. As well as for the good of the volunteer ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3942. Do you think that the artillery volunteers 
 might ask for the erection of gun sheds for the pro- 
 tection of guns on travelling carriages and for pur- 
 poses of gun drills where guus or travelling carriages 
 are .supplied to them ? — We have never given any 
 18-pounder field moveable guns to any volunteers 
 unless they have guaranteed to protect them from 
 injury. 
 
 3943. Do you think that the volunteer artillery 
 might fairly ask to be relieved from that expense ? — 
 There again these guns, &c., are Government property, 
 and deteriorate very much if sheds are not built. 
 
 3944. You are aware that this Commission is en- 
 gaged in inquiring into the constitution of the volunteer 
 force, and in what way it may be assisted, do you 
 think that that is a species of assistance that they 
 might well ask for ? — Yes. 
 
 3945. Where many Government stores are in charge 
 of a corps, might not the artillery volunteers ask for 
 a paid quartermaster serjeant or, better still, the 
 appointment of a non-commissioned officer of Royal 
 Artillery with a slight increase of pay to per- 
 form the function of quartermaster serjeant, such 
 non-commissioned officer to be distinct from the drill 
 instructor ? — I do not understancl how the volunteers 
 can have charge of any stores, because the drill in- 
 structor is the Government custodian of all the 
 stores entrusted to the volunteers, and it is his busi- 
 ness to keep an account of them, and he is responsible 
 to the commanding officer of artillery in the district, 
 for their being at all times in good order. 
 
 Y 2 
 
 Col 
 
 C. Bingham .
 
 16i 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMmSSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Col 
 
 C. Bingham, 
 
 1 July 1862. 
 
 3946. Properly speaking the volunteers ought not 
 to be put to any expense as to the custody of the 
 Govemnieut stores ? — Certainly not ; they are en- 
 tirely military stores, and in charge of the com- 
 manding officer of artillery in the district. 
 
 3947. Do you know who takes chai'ge of the 
 artillery sniidl arms ? — No ; I know nothing about 
 them. 
 
 3948. AVhose property are they ? — I do not know. 
 
 3949. They arc not in charge of tlie Royal Ar- 
 tillery ? — No. 
 
 3950. Might not the artillery volunteers ask to 
 have the expense defrayed of sending out their tar- 
 gets for practice ? — I always thought this was done. 
 I think it ought to be, certainly, as regards tlie 
 boating charges, the same as for the Royal Artillery ; 
 the volunteers themselves would assist in laying out 
 the targets, but the boat hire for taking the targets 
 out to sea, and l)ringing them back again, I think 
 should be defrayed. 
 
 3951. Might not the artillery volunteers be sui)- 
 ])!ied with skidding, lufl' tackle, ground and other 
 rollers, scotches, selvages, straps, drag ropes, &c. for 
 moving heavy ordnance without a gyn, where such 
 articles are not obtainable from the royal artillery 
 stores ? — Where the volunteer artillery make use of 
 ro3'al artillery guns, the commander-in-chief has 
 desired that commanding officers of artillery would 
 afford every facility in teaching them and training 
 them to the use of artillery machines of all kinds ; 
 but it has not been thought expedient to incur the 
 expense of sending all these stores to small volunteer 
 Ijatteries at out-stations. 
 
 3952. But to such inexpensive stores as those I 
 have enumerated, you see no objection ? — If you 
 multiply them into a great number, the expense will 
 be great ; still, if it is with the object of considering 
 what it would be good to allow the volunteers, I think 
 it would be a very good thing. 
 
 3953. Is it not one very important point with re- 
 ference to the artillery volunteers on the coast that 
 they should be able to assist the royal artillery when 
 short-handed ? — There is no doubt about it. 
 
 3954. Without these appliances they could not do 
 it ? — They could not, nor without a very good know- 
 ledge of them. 
 
 3955. Do you not consider that a most im]>ortant 
 consideration ? — Most important, far more than the 
 mere firing the guns. 
 
 3956. Can you inform the Commission whether 
 any great extra expense is incurred by the district 
 offices of Royal Artillery or at the Horse Gu.ards in 
 consequence of their having to receive reports and 
 pass accounts of artillery volunteers ? — No, in each 
 district office where there are large numbers of volun- 
 teers, an extra clerk is temporarily employed at \s. a 
 
 day. In mj' office I have only one extra clerk at Is. 
 a day for volunteer purposes. Of course it increases 
 the work very much, and at first it was very heavy, 
 but after it had once got organized it became com- 
 parati^ely easy, and the whole of the stores belonging 
 to the volunteer artillery are taken up on the store 
 returns of the commanding officer of artillery. 
 
 3957. Then it is a mistake to suppose, according to 
 the present practice, that commanding oihcers of 
 volunteer artillery are considered to be in charge of 
 the guns and the stores ? — Yes, they are not at all so 
 considered. 
 
 3958. It is a mistake ? — Yes, quite a mistake. The 
 Horse Guards authorities have no control nor can 
 they give any orders or directions to the volunteer 
 officers. 
 
 3959. {Major-Gen. El/re.) Are the artillery volun- 
 teers organized in districts under the officer com- 
 manding the Royal Artillery in the district ? — Yes ; 
 as far as their materiel and practice are concerned. 
 
 3960. Then they are different from the rifle volun- 
 teers ? — I do not know what their organization is ; if 
 the commander-in-chief is asked to name an officer to 
 inspect the artillery volunteers, the district com- 
 manding officer is generally selected ; but in large 
 districts, such as the northern district, or Scotland, 
 where the volunteer artillery are so numerous, it 
 takes five or six officers to ins])ect them. 
 
 3961. {Sir A. Campbell.) But the system is dif- 
 ferent from that pursued in the rifle volunteers, is 
 it not ? — I do not know. 
 
 3962. {Lord Oversfone.) I presume you are of 
 opinion that the artillery volunteer force along the 
 maritime counties of England is about the most valu- 
 able of all the volunteer corps ? — They will be 
 most valuable auxiliaries to the Roj'al Artillery, I have 
 no doubt. 
 
 3963. You think that they would be of very great 
 importance as a force auxiliary to the Royal Artil- 
 lery ? — Of the greatest possilile importance. 
 
 3964. Do you think they ought to receive all 
 ])ossible encouragement from the Government ? — Yes 
 I do, and as far as I can see they have every possible 
 assistance. 
 
 3965. You have expressed your concurrence as 
 to the propriety of many requests being made to 
 the Government for aid to the artillery volunteers. 
 Are the Commission to understand that in the cases 
 in which you have expressed that concurrence, you 
 are aware that the Government are prepared to grant 
 those requests?^! cannot say that; the Horse Guards 
 have nothing to do with money. 
 
 3.966. You have simply expressed a professional 
 opinion that the requests are reasonable, but you can 
 say nothing as to the intentions of Government ? — 
 Nothinn; whatever. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned till Friday next at half-past 12 o'clock. 
 
 Friday, 4th July 1862. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Viscount EVEESLET. 
 Viscount Hardixge. 
 
 Lord OVERSTONE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel B.^rttelot. 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. A. Wetherall. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 Major Harcodrt. 
 
 Lic'Ji.-Col. 
 T. D. Acland. 
 
 4 .Tuly isr.2. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chair. 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Thoslas Dyke Acland examined. 
 
 3967. {Chairinan.) You command two bodies of 
 volunteers in the county of Devon ; a Mounted Rifle 
 Volunteer Corps, and also an Administrative Bat- 
 talion ? — Yes. 
 
 3968. Does the mounted rlHe volunteer corps 
 
 consist of more than one cciiipany ? — It consists of 
 one company, with a certain number of dismounted 
 men ; they are either a section of a company, or they 
 are a section attached. T do not think that that ])oint 
 is quite settled. The original intention sanctioned by
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 165 
 
 the War Office was to make the mounted corps a 
 nucleus, to which sections of artisiuis in various 
 villages should be united. 
 
 3969. Are your mounted men all drilled to art iis 
 infantry ? — Yes ; they are all drilled on the ordinary 
 principles of infantry with the dismounted men. They 
 ai'e also drilled in the instructions fur mounted rifle 
 volunteers, issued by Colonel J^ysons, under authority 
 of the Secretary of State, and in some additional 
 movements suggested by Colonel Bowers, of Hamp- 
 shire. 
 
 3970. Was there any fund raised for that corps in 
 the first instance ? — Yes ; a considerable fund. 
 
 3971. Was the clothing of the men paid for out of 
 that fund ? — It is a fundamental rule that no clothing 
 is to be paid for out of the fund ; every man clothed 
 himself, or was clothed by private friends. 
 
 3972. Do you call for subscriptions from every 
 member of the corps ? — Yes ; 5s. annually, which 
 they are not very willing to pay. 
 
 3973. Out of the fund so raised, can you pay for 
 all the rifle ranges, and everything else that is neces- 
 sary ? — Two ranges, with butts, &c., have l)een all 
 j)rovidcd for by my father at no cost to the corps ; 
 there is also a liberal annual subscription from 
 honorary members. 
 
 3974. Then we may consider that your mounted 
 corps is well provided for ? — Yes. 
 
 3975. And does not require any assistance ? — No ; 
 beyond that already given for ammunition and drill 
 instruction. 
 
 397(3. You also command an administrative bat- 
 talion, of how many corps does that consist ? — Of 
 eight corps, and two mounted corps attached. There 
 are six companies and two subdivisions of rifle volun- 
 teers, and two attached mounted corps. No. 1 and 
 No. 3. 
 
 3977. Are those mounted corps able to supjiort 
 themselves ? — You mean the second one ; that is 
 No. 3. 
 
 3978. Yes ? — It does not support itself very well, 
 for it leans a good deal upon individuals ; it consists 
 of a certain number of small hill country farmers, 
 who are very zealous and intelligent, and I am very 
 desirous to keep up the corps ; they have been entirely 
 dependent for drill upon my drill instructor, who 
 goes a distance of 16 miles once a fortnight to drill 
 that corps, but that has been done by private, arrange- 
 ment, they having no drill instructor. 
 
 3979. Are you speaking of the drill instructor who 
 is attached to the mounted corps ? — Yes, to the corps 
 No. 1, of which I am captain. 
 
 3980. On principle, those corps should be sclf-sup- 
 jiorting, if ]30ssible ? — I am very strongly of that 
 opinion ; I think it is desirable that all volunteer corps 
 should be self-supporting. 
 
 3981. Supposing it were necessary to give them 
 Government aid, on what conditions do you think that 
 Government aid should be given ? — I think that any 
 assistance that may be given by the Government 
 should lie subject to strict conditions as to the efli- 
 ciency of the corps, either as to its numbers or as to 
 the attendance of the men at drill, or, which I think 
 still more important, as to their proper knowledge of 
 their drill, and also as to certain special conditions 
 with regard to keeping up the practice of systenuitic 
 shooting ; of course also as to the state of their arms 
 and accoutrements, and whatever belongs to the 
 Government. 
 
 3982. You do not consider that attendance at a 
 certain number of drills is any proof of a num being 
 an effective soldier ? — No, and I think it is most 
 desirable that the definition of an effective should be 
 altered. 
 
 3983. A man ought to have passed through a course 
 of uuisketry instruction to be an effective ? — Yes. 
 
 3984. And through all the ])relirainary drills ? — 
 Perhaps he ought ; but it is difficult to entbrce all the 
 preliniLnary drills. 
 
 398o. Supposing that it was made one of the con- 
 ditions before any assistance was given that the men 
 
 should have passed through a course of musketry 
 instruction, and all the preliminary drills, how would 
 you obtain that sort of information ? — I have very 
 great difficulty in getting inforjuation as to the corps 
 under my connnand. I have l)een trying to get infor- 
 mation ; but 1 am not in a position to stale officially, 
 as to any one of my corps, whether they have tired in 
 fil(! and volley, and I consider it im|)ortant that the 
 colonel of a corps should have the jwwer of ascertain- 
 ing what progress is being made in tlu^ corps for 
 whose drill he is responsible. 
 
 3986. Are these cori)s all ])rovided with ranges ? — 
 I believe they all are ; indeed, they were not formed 
 u:'.til their ranges had been inspected ; but there has 
 been a great difficulty in some parts of Devonshire in 
 getting ranges. The Exeter corps has had a great 
 difficulty about a range. The arrangement now made 
 is, that they have a very good range on the sea coast, 
 which they reach by a sixpenny fare from Exeter. 
 That is just one of those local cases in which it is 
 desirable that the suggestion, with regard to the 
 nature of the assistance recpiired, should come from 
 lielow, and not from above. What they want is to 
 be relieved from the expense of getting to their rifle 
 range. 
 
 3987. {Major- Geii. Eyre.) What is the actual dis- 
 tance that they travel ? — About 10 miles. 
 
 3988. {Chairman.) You are of opinion that the 
 oflicer in command of an administrative^ battalion 
 should have rather more power than he has now ? — 
 I think that he should have more responsibility, and 
 more discretion in matters of administration, if I nuiy 
 draw the distinction. He has a means of persuasion 
 and of inquiry which cannot possibly exist here. 
 Most of the administrative field officers, fi-om their 
 former military position, or from their local property, 
 or their connexion with ])roperty, ha\'e a certain 
 public character to maintain, and I think the War 
 Office might rely on information derived jointly from 
 the adjutant and field officer. 
 
 3989. If any assistance were given to an admini- 
 strative battalion do you think it should pass through 
 the hands of the commanding officer ? — I should be 
 very sorry to have the money passed through my 
 hands. I should be prejiared to investigate the cir- 
 cumstances of each application for aid, and to report 
 upon them ; but I should not like to have to spend 
 the money. 
 
 3990. Do you think that the colonel should be 
 made responsible for all the wants of the corps ? — 
 I think he should be held responsible for making the 
 War Office thoroughly aware of the state of the cir- 
 cumstances, and for suggesting the course most likely 
 to ensure efficienc}' and the willing co-operation of 
 all parties concerned. 
 
 3991. ( Viscouut Ilardiiif/e.) As to the efficiency of 
 the men in drill, such as file firing and volley firing, 
 the colonel of au administrative^ battnlion has power, 
 has he not, to go and inspect tlu^ diflerent corps, and 
 ascertain how far they are proficient in their drill ? — 
 Yes ; but I am speaking not of the actual proficiency 
 of those on parade, which can be judged of liy inspec- 
 tion, but of the legularity and system brought to bear 
 on the course of drill and musketry. 
 
 3992. Have you a difticidty in ascertaining from 
 the captain of each company the exact routine of the 
 drill that the company has gone through ? — Yes. 
 
 3993. {Chairman.) Could not a return be called 
 for by the colonel of an administrative battalion, 
 which should be signed by the .adjutant and the drill 
 instructor, and the captains of companies, that would 
 show exactly what drill every man had gone through? 
 — There is a great dislike to paper work among 
 volunteers. Any returns called for should be very 
 simple, and not too frequent. I have taken much 
 pains to prepare such a return in a form which will 
 give as little trouble as possible, but I do not feej 
 sure that I sliall get it filled up for all the corps. I 
 think it is clearly the duty of tlu' adjutant to keep the 
 field officer regularly informed of the progress of the 
 corps under his command, and if the returns are not 
 
 ' - Y 3 
 
 Liful.-Col. 
 T. I>. Acland. 
 
 A .Inly 1862.
 
 166 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 T''D*AcIa.nd. ^^^^ ^'^ '"'" ^^ P''***' ^^^^^' ^^ M'glit to go and obtain 
 
 J the information on tlie spot. I should, however, sug- 
 
 4 July 1862. gest that some allowance should be made for an orderly 
 
 ' clerk, or a serjeant-major, because I think that such 
 
 a, man, having a recognized position in the service 
 under the adjutant, would be able to get returns sys- 
 tematically kei)t, and execute orders which can hardly 
 be given to an officer who has left the army at a 
 certain time of life. 
 
 3994. Do you think that the allowances made to 
 the adjutant are sufficient ? — I hardly like to give 
 any opinion as to their pay, but I believe that adju- 
 tants of volunteers do not consider themselves pro- 
 perly paid in comparison with adjutants of militia. 
 
 3995. What is your opinion as to the allowances 
 for travelling expenses ? — I think that the allowances 
 for travelling expenses are made upon an extremely 
 bad principle, as I have already stated officially. I 
 will put two coi'ps side by side, Lord Mount Edg- 
 cumbe has his corps all close together in Plymouth, 
 Stonehouse, and Devonport, except one, and that 
 one is at Tavistock. That one is, I believe, over 
 the required distance, and his adjutant gets the same 
 allowance per diem as my adjutant receives, who goes 
 down two lines of railway, a distance of 20 miles, 
 and at the end of one journey by rail has to hire a 
 conveyance for five miles, and at the end of the other 
 journey to hire for seven miles. I should be glad if 
 he could visit the distant corps more frequently than 
 some of the others, but every time that I send him I 
 take from 15s. to 1/. out of his pocket. I therefore 
 strongly disapprove of the plan of compounding for 
 travelling expenses, because it liampers a commanding 
 officer, and taxes the adjutant in proportion to the 
 zeal with which he does his duty. 
 
 3996. You spoke just now of the drill instructor 
 of your mounted corps doing duty with other corps ? 
 — I have been obliged to lend him to another mounted 
 corps attached to my own battalion, and to two 
 mounted corps in another battalion. They could not 
 get a drill instructor, and that is a point which I wish 
 most earnestly to press upon the attention of the Com- 
 mission. I think that the present mode of appointing 
 and paying drill instructors should be entirely altered. 
 The practice of attaching a man permanently on a 
 yearly salary to a corps which only gives him work 
 to do once a week, or twice a week, and at certain 
 seasons in the course of the year no work at all, is 
 in my opinion a waste of public money, and I think 
 it of the utmost importance to keep down all the 
 charges on the public purse for the volunteer force. 
 I entertain that opinion very strongly. A Serjeant 
 attached to a volunteer corps is in a totally different 
 position from a serjeant in a good regiment. In his 
 regiment he is under all the influences that keep a 
 man up to his work, whereas the serjeant in a volun- 
 teer corps is under influences which tend to make him 
 get slack, unless he is a very conscientious and active 
 man. I have 10 corps to deal with ; the corps of 
 which I am captain is extremely well served, there- 
 fore I do not complain on personal grounds ; but 
 practically out of the 10 corps there are only two 
 besides my own that have any aid from the Govern- 
 ment towards drill instruction ; all the others have 
 been doing their best to engage serjeant instructors 
 on the terms of the regulations, but they cannot suc- 
 ceed, and that is the case with many other corps in 
 Devonshire. 
 
 3997. Would not those two drill instructors have 
 a great deal of leisure time and be able to give the 
 necessary instruction to the whole of the corps in 
 the battalion, if placed under the command of the 
 colonel and the adjutant ? — That is the plan which 
 I strongly urged on the Government before they 
 decided to give separate instractors to each detached 
 corps, and I think it would have worked much better 
 than the present arrangement ; but now that the 
 officers of the separate corps have been led to think 
 they can have Serjeants at their own command, and 
 I do not think that they would like the drill instruc- 
 tors to be transferred from them to the colonel and 
 
 suggest would be from 15/. 
 
 the adjutant. I think the most convenient course 
 would bo to give a money payment to the officers of 
 each corps to be spent either on the payment of an 
 occasional drill instructor or of a resident orderly, or 
 for both purposes. 
 
 3998. (Lord Overstone.) Do you mean a money 
 payment from the public purse ? — I mean instead of 
 giving 2s. Ad. a day or 2s. Id. to a permanent drill 
 instructor, that a smaller sum of money than that 
 should be placed at the disposal of the captain of a 
 corps, to enable him to engage a serjeant, with the 
 concurrence of the field officer, on his own terms. 
 
 3999. You do not contemplate an increased charge 
 upon the public purse ? — No ; I think that less money 
 would do ; I consider the present a very improvident 
 arrangement, and that a smaller sum of money spent 
 in a different way would do the work a great deal 
 better ; nearly all my corps have been drilled by 
 engaging a serjeant from the staff of the disembodied 
 militia ; they are excellent drills ; they are very mucli 
 improved in my opinion as volunteer drills by their 
 experience ; they have learned how to drill volunteers, 
 and do their work very well. They are willing to go 
 out as often as they are required at os. a day ; the 
 cost of the arrangement I 
 to 25/. a year. 
 
 4000. {Col. MacMurdo.) Are you aware that the 
 Serjeants of the permanent staff of the militia consti- 
 tute a class of drill instructors for the volunteers at 
 the rate of 1«. a day ? — I am aware of that regulation. 
 But you cannot get them to work on those terms as 
 permanent instructors ; they will not come ; but they 
 are willing to come if you deal with them on the 
 basis of the market value of their services. 
 
 4001. {Viscount Hardingc.) Does each company 
 in your administrative battalion give gratuities to 
 these militia Serjeants ? — They pay them regularly 
 for the work done'; they make a private engagement 
 with them, and they pay tliem for the work done. 
 
 4002. That is, I suppose, for the numlier of drills 
 they attend ? — Yes ; at so much per drill. 
 
 4003. You are probably aware that you can have 
 the services of a militia serjeant throughout the whole 
 year if you like ? — I am aware that that is upon 
 paper ; but I do not believe that they can be com- 
 pelled to leave their quarters or to undertake the 
 extra duty unless they are properly paid for it. 
 
 AOOA. '{Lord Overstone.) Is it the result of your 
 experience that practically you can not obtain the 
 services of these militia Serjeants ? — Yes. 
 
 4005. {Chairman.) You cannot secure the ser- 
 vices of the militia Serjeants when you want them, or 
 when they are secured they are paid at the rate of 5s. 
 a day ? — Yes ; that is by a private arrangement, 
 which I think works very well ; some of them are 
 first-rate instructors. They have a standing engage- 
 ment with some of the corps that they shall go once a 
 fortnight, in other cases once a week, and I think that 
 that is all that is wanted, or can practically be done, 
 for drill in rural districts. The drill of volunteers is 
 an employment which requires very high skill, and 
 should be dealt with as skilled labour. The men who 
 can drill well are exceedingly few in number, and 
 they know their own value. If it is convenient to 
 have a man on the spot to take care of the arms and 
 to attend on parade to mark points, and to give a 
 certain amount of military steadiness to the volunteers, 
 perhaps the fittest kind of man would be a pensioner, 
 whose services would be obtained at a very much 
 lower rate if he were allowed to fill up his time and 
 to earn money in other ways ; a skilled drill instructor 
 will not work at the same low rate of remuneration. 
 
 4006. ( Viscount Hardinge.) At what rate )ier 
 week, supposing you received a money payment from 
 the Government, do you think you could obtain the 
 services of a discharged soldier or pensioner from the 
 lino vo act as your drill instructor ? — I do not mean 
 as drill instructor, but a person to perform certain 
 or'lerly duties at the headquarters of a small corps. I 
 may, however, answer the question by mentioning that 
 in connexion with my own company T have employed
 
 TO INQUIRE INT6 the COi^DITtON OF TIIK VOIAINTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 16V 
 
 one of iny father's woodmen whose wages are about 
 lOi'. a week for half his time to clean arms, to act as 
 marker at target practice, and occasionally as assi.s- 
 tant drill instructor. The e.\pense may be estimated 
 at 5.<. or 6s. per week. The man was a serjcaut in the 
 line. 
 
 4007. AVould such a discharged soldier occupy the 
 place that is now occupied b}' the drill instructor ? — 
 He would do part of his duty, and that which would 
 be the least costly, clean the arms, for instance, and 
 take care of the armoury, act as marker, and he might 
 possibly keep books. 
 
 4008. Would it not be advisable in a rural com- 
 pany, where, perhaps, neither the captain nor the subal- 
 terns had served in the line, that they should have an 
 experienced drill instructor to refer to upon any dis- 
 puted point in the details of the drill ? — No, I do not 
 think so, I think that they ought to refer to the 
 adjutant. 
 
 4009. But suppose the adjutant is not present ? — I 
 think the officers had better rely upon themselves, and 
 learn their own work. I do not approve of volunteer 
 officers leaning on the drill instructors, I do not think 
 that any good comes from that. 
 
 4010. (Lord Orcrsfoiie.) Do you thiidc that the 
 officers could practically carry out the drill and dis- 
 cipline of the corps without the aid of a drill in- 
 structor ? — I thiidc they want the assistance of a 
 skilled drill instructor periodically, perhaps, in certain 
 cases once a week, and in other cases once a fortnight. 
 
 4011. The occasional presence of a drill instructor 
 you think ought to be sufficient to enalsle the officers to 
 carry out the instruction practically in the intervening 
 periods ?— Practically the men do not meet much in 
 the intervals between the weekly or fortnightly drills. 
 
 4012. {^Viscount Hardinge.) Underyour plan would 
 these men be detached from the militia to visit the 
 corps periodically ? — No, not detached. 
 
 4013. Should they come from any line or militia 
 regiment that was within reach ? — Yes, they would 
 come by rail and return the same day or the next day. 
 
 4014. {Chairman.) Have you any difficulty in as- 
 sembling a good many of your men at battalion drills ? 
 — It is very much a matter of expense. I hope to 
 get about one or two assemblages of the whole bat- 
 talion in the year. With some encouragement and 
 assistance we might have several meetings for com- 
 bined company drill, varying from two to four com- 
 panies. 
 
 4015. Do your men who come from a longdistance 
 require assistance, and if they received assistance do 
 you think you could assemble a larger number toge- 
 ther ? — I think that some of the corps would find 
 assistance a very great relief, as all these expenses 
 are apt to fall on the officers. There is one corps in 
 another battalion, the Chudleigh subdivision, com- 
 posed of artizans and others, in which they have 
 adopted a very good system, the men pay a penny a 
 week towards an excursion fund which they manage 
 themselves. But as a general rule the expenses in- 
 curred when travelling to battalion drills fall on the 
 officers, and of course this circumstance imposes a 
 limit on attendance, and also on the appointment of 
 officers. 
 
 4016. You had a great brigade day a few days 
 ago, had you not ? — Yes. 
 
 4017. Were the expenses of the men paid on that 
 occasion ? — The arrangement was this. The corps 
 travelling less than 12 miles had no allowance, the 
 corps travelling more than 12 miles had an allowance of 
 three farthings per mile per head one way, that is foi- 
 the whole distance minus 12 miles, so that all the men 
 were put upon the same footing, as the men who 
 lived at Exeter and the men who lived at Torquay, 
 each being distant about 12 miles from the stations 
 near the rendezvous. To those who had to come by 
 carts or other conveyance, to get to the station 
 near their own headquarters, if they came less than 
 two miles, we allowed nothing ; but if they came 
 more than two miles I think we allowed them 2s. for 
 every 10 men jier mile, and the practical result was 
 
 that for railway expenses and road expenses of infantry 
 and artillery on foot we paid 13.)/. 
 
 4018. How many men a.sscml)led on that occa- 
 sion? — Including the mounted corps, 2,700. For 
 the mounted cor|)s we allowed to tliose who came 
 over 20 miles and under 30 miles 7.v. (id. per horse ; 
 to those who came over 30 miles we allowed 10s. 
 per horse ; and the total expense for the horses 
 was 42i. I7s. dd. We also allowed to a field 
 battery, bringing 60 horses, 30/. We also gave 
 beer on the ground, which, perhap.s, will not be done 
 again. The total expense of the review, including 
 ])rinting and other sundry expenses, was about 300/. 
 on the part of the association ; but individuals in- 
 curred considerable expense besides. 
 
 4019. How was that money obtained ? — It was 
 raised by the Devon County Volunteer Association, 
 the rules of which I have here, and which was 
 founded generally for the purpose of assisting the 
 volunteer force in all respects. It began by con- 
 sidering the question of clothing, ranges, and local 
 organization. It was called upon liy the lord-lieu- 
 tenant to report on tin; division of the connty into 
 battalions, and it provided for a course of nmsketry 
 instruction given to a class of 40 officers and non- 
 commissioned officers. We have since had two 
 county rifle meetings, which we have given up for 
 the present year. We are now engaged in promoting 
 the average shooting of companies and battalions, 
 and in assisting the volunteers to assemble for the 
 purpose of brigading. We do not give money for 
 battalion drills, but only for brigade drills. 
 
 4020. {Col. Mac3Iiirdo.) Why have you given up 
 the prize meetings of the county rifle association ? — ■ 
 Because we found that they were putting money into 
 the pockets of a very limited number of good shots, 
 and not giving satisfaction even to those few who 
 complained that our prizes were of too small amount 
 for the expense of attending the meetings. We are 
 now turning our attention to the average shooting of 
 companies and battalions. It is proposed to encourage 
 a high figure of merit by giving battalion prizes, to 
 be held as challenge prizes between the companies. 
 The arrangement is that the figure of merit is to be 
 made out on the range of the corps under the respon- 
 sibility of its own officers. The companies are to 
 produce their registers, and out of ten companies a 
 certain number, to be fixed at the discretion of the 
 field officer, are to be selected as the competing com- 
 panies. But as the shooting of companies on their 
 own ranges would not be a basis that would give 
 public satisfaction with regard to the award of the 
 prize, the prize is to be awarded at a public competi- 
 tion on the shooting of sections proportioned to the 
 strength of the companies selected to compete. If 
 10 men represent a company of 60, a company of 90 
 would be represented by a section of 15. A subdi- 
 vision of 30 by a section of 5. 
 
 4021. {Chairman.) How will the fund be raised? 
 — It will be granted out of the county fund. The 
 sum of 100/. has lieen voted for challenge bugles, to 
 be held in each battalion by the company which shows 
 the highest average of shooting. I attach the greatest 
 importance to this plan, for I think the present system 
 of merely promoting a few crack shots has no effect 
 in raising the military efficiency of the corps. The 
 badges sanctioned by the Government, the prizes of 
 the National Association, and private matches, ofier 
 sufliciout stimulus to the best marksmen. The ma- 
 jority of volunteers cannot att'ord the time oi- money 
 required to attend rifle meetings at a distanc(! from 
 home. What is required, is to give them cnconrage- 
 nu'ut to persevere in regular class shooting on their 
 own range. I have found the good effect of this in 
 my own company. • 
 
 4022. Do you find any difficulty in keeping up the 
 companies at their proper strength ? — They are all, I 
 think, keeping up nearly the same strength, some 
 have increased lately ; there is a difficulty, no doubt, 
 but I think that difficulty may be overcome by good 
 local arrangements. Whatever can be done to give 
 
 Y4 
 
 Lieut. -Cut. 
 T. 1). ArlanJ. 
 
 4 .Tulv ISG2.
 
 168 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE fOMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.-Col 
 T. D. Acland. 
 
 4 July 18G2. 
 
 them a more definite object to work for, and when 
 that object is attained, to give them credit for liaving 
 done well, will keep up the spirit and reputation of 
 the corps. Tiierefore I attach very great importance 
 to the authorities encouraging those wlio are willing 
 to make an effort to go through what is called " setting 
 " up drill." I do not mean by that term extension 
 motions, but beginning at the iirst page of the book 
 and going to the end of company drill once a year. 
 One of my neighbours, acting on my suggestion, took 
 an average of 52 men a week out of 60 through a 
 regular course of company drill before Easter, on 
 the understanding that after that time they should 
 not be required to attend drill, except for musketry, 
 or for combined company drill, in the nature of field- 
 days. 
 
 4023. I suppose that no man can compete for any 
 of the prizes who has not gone through all these 
 preliminary drills ? — Such a rule was laid down as 
 regards the setting up drill. With regard to the pre- 
 liminary musketry drills, I confess that I do not think 
 it necessary to enforce all the details of the Ilythe 
 system. I have iieard that in one distinguished 
 London corps the colonel has required all the men to 
 go through the preliminary course annually, there 
 being in that corps very intelligent university men 
 who are quite as capable of giving a lecture on 
 the theoretical principles of musketry as their in- 
 structors. 1 think this very unreasonable and im- 
 politic. I have been at Hythe myself, and although 
 I have much injured eyesight, I passed into the first 
 class, and I have conducted a musketry class, with 
 the assistance of some of my friends at Exeter. I 
 have the very highest opinion of the good eflx^cts pro- 
 duced on the army by the Hythe school, but I think 
 that to require our volunteers to listen to theoretical 
 lectures with which they are familiar is a waste of 
 time without an adequate object. Position drill is 
 another question. 
 
 4024. ( Viscount Hardinge.) You think it would 
 be almost impossible to carry out the Hythe system 
 in small rural corps ? — -They have a great dislike to 
 judging distance drill, but 1 am endeavouring to over- 
 come this dislike by giving a mark of distinction to 
 first class men on condition of their being passed by 
 the adjutant in judging distance. I think that if 
 a man thoroughly understands what is meant by 
 elevation and direction, and has a moderate theo- 
 retical knowledge of the principle of the trajectory, 
 position drill and practice alone are required to make 
 him a good shot. 
 
 402.5. Why do they dislike the judging distance 
 drill ? — Because it takes up a good deal of time. 
 
 4026. {Lord Orerstone.) Yon have stated that in 
 your opinion, it is a matter of the greatest importance 
 to keep down the charges upon the public purse, with 
 reference to the volunteer movement ? — I do think 
 so. 
 
 4027. Do you think that the volunteer movement 
 can be maintained in its present state of efficiency, 
 without further pecuniary aid from the Government ? 
 — I am afraid that several corps are in great pecu- 
 niary difficulty. The disposition to subscribe pri- 
 vately is very nearly exhausted in many cases. 
 
 4028. Does your opinion as to the inexpediency of 
 increasing the public charges, in connexion with the 
 volunteer movement, go to this extent, that it would 
 be inexpedient for this Commission to recommend auy 
 further charges lieing made on the Govermnent 
 account ? — No. 
 
 4029. What charges do you think, with a due regard 
 to your feeling, could be most properly recommended 
 to the Government ? — I should think that every corps 
 should be allowed to state its own wants, and that 
 the field officers of those corps should be held re- 
 sponsible for giving detailed opinions u]ion such 
 applications, and that the greatest facilities .should be 
 given, consistently with official rules, for the corps 
 to be aided in the way in which they most require it. 
 
 4030. Your opinion is that the requirements of 
 the difi'erent corps would necessarily assume a dif- 
 
 ferent character, and that Government aid, under one 
 rule, would not be applical)le to the majority of cases? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4031. And that it must be, to a certain extent, dis- 
 cretionary aid, to be exercised through the judgment 
 of the commanding officer in each case ? — I think 
 there should be the exercise of the judgment of the 
 office too, on the reports made to it ; when I said field 
 officers, I mean subject to the special report of the 
 assistant inspector. 
 
 4032. You mean thnt a final judgment should be 
 exercised by the War Office ; but that they should 
 receive the reports and opinions of the commanding 
 officers of each corps ? — Yes, with that of the assist- 
 ant inspector, for I think really that the mode of 
 disjiensing the fund is more important than the amount 
 of it. 
 
 4033. What do you exactly refer to ? — I refer 
 especially to what I have already said as to the drill 
 instructors ; the Government have already promised 
 to pay for our drill instruction, and we do not get the 
 help. I think if more were left to local discretion, a 
 smaller amount than that proposed for the pay of per- 
 manent Serjeant instructors would provide amply for 
 the efficient drill of an administrative battalion. If 
 has been well said, " We can make a pound go much 
 '• further than the Government can." 
 
 4034. {Major- Gen. Eyre.) You have spoken of 
 having a yearly subscription of os. 'i — Yes. 
 
 4035. And that your coi'ps is a good deal composed 
 of little hill farmers ? — Not my corps ; my corps is 
 composed rather of a higher class of farmers or their 
 sous, and they pay their own expenses entirely. 
 
 4036. Surely the little hill farmers do not feel a 
 contribution of as. so inconvenient as to make it 
 difficult to contribute it ? — I cannot answer for them, 
 but I can say that the larger farmers in my neigh- 
 bourhood are very unwilling to pay it ; they say, 
 " We clothe ourselves, and we give our time which 
 " is very valuable, and we think that we ought not 
 " to be called upon to subscribe." 
 
 4037. But iu that case it is not from want of means ? 
 — No ; they say that there is a certain portion of the 
 public who do not volunteer, and that they should 
 subscribe, or if they will not, then if the services of 
 volunteers are wanted the Government ought to pro- 
 vide the necessary expenses. 
 
 4038. {Lord Ovcrstone.) What is your opinion as 
 to the expediency of Government intervening to 
 assist in providing clothing for the volunteer force ? 
 — I very much wish that all volunteers should clothe 
 themselves, but I believe that there are cases in which 
 it is impracticable to retain the services of verj' good 
 volunteers without public assistance for clothing. 
 I may, however, state to the Commission the experi- 
 ence of a friend of mine, who is a very efficient 
 officer, Mr. Poole, of Bridgewater, I asked him his 
 opinion a few days ago, and he said that he had a 
 strong opinion in favour of keeping up the self- 
 clothing system ; that all the men who had been clothed 
 at the expense of others had gradually left his corps. 
 The whole of his corps now clothe themselves, and 
 he said that they had got on better iu consequence. 
 
 4039. Do you think that that case could be taken 
 as illustrating a general class of cases, or were there 
 not peculiar circumstances which might have enabled 
 that gentleman to accomplish his object, which would 
 jH'event that case being taken as a general rule ? — 
 I think it might be taken as a very common case in 
 towns where the volunteer movement is sufficiently 
 jiopular to enlist the sympathies of what are called 
 the respectable classes of the community. There are 
 cases in which, from indiscretion in management or 
 other causes the respectable middle class are not 
 willing to be volunteers. The cases in which the 
 demand for clothing is most urgent are those in which 
 the members of the corjjs are composed of working 
 men earning wages ; there are such cases in my bat- 
 talion. I confess that I do not think it very desirable, 
 as a general rule, that the corps should be very largely 
 recruited from that class, but some of them, 1 am
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF Till', VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT IMUTAIX. 
 
 lli!> 
 
 boiiud to say, iire very good volunteers, siiid take a. 
 pride in clothing themselves. They are very practical 
 men, thoroughly in earnest about what they undertake, 
 but who cannot aftbrd to contribute money. Every 
 drill that they attend involves a loss to them of money 
 out of their pockets, much greater in proportion tlian 
 the loss to men who arc engaged in business, making 
 a profit on capital, and having time at their own 
 disposal. 
 
 4040. Can you form any estimate as to what num- 
 ber of the volunteers in the county of Devon could 
 be expected to continue permaneutl_y in the force, 
 without any further Government aid as to clothing or 
 otherwise ? — I cannot answer that question without 
 iucpiirv. 
 
 4041. {Col. MacMurdo.) You have stated that 
 there is a diflicull}' in obtaining the services of 
 militia Serjeants as drill instructors ; you are ])robably 
 not aware that there are at the present time 163 
 militia Serjeants emplo3-cd in the instruction of volun- 
 teer corps, and that many others who have been so 
 employed have discontinued that employment in con- 
 se(iuencc of the appointment of permanent instructors 
 to the volunteer corps ? — I am not. 
 
 4042. {Sir A. CamphcU.) You have given your 
 own experience of the difticulty you have found in 
 your own county, where you find that you can not get 
 them to come ? — Yes ; that is my opinion ; and 
 besides that I have reason to know that several of 
 my friends have made provisional engagements with 
 Serjeants to come to them, and then, owing to various 
 official restrictions and reciuircments, they have been 
 disappointed. I do not speak now of militia Serjeants 
 only, but of men from the line. 
 
 4043. {Chairman.) Is there any other point that 
 you wish to bring befoi'e the Commission ? — Yes ; I 
 wish the Commission particularly to consider the 
 position of the subdivisions. Supposing the present 
 arrangement with regard to drill instructors to bo 
 continued, something should be done for them. I 
 may have misunderstood the intentions of the office, 
 but I certainly did understand that it was my duty 
 to order one of the Serjeant instructors attached to 
 two of my companies to drill a neighbouring sub- 
 division gratuitously, and I was prepared to give the 
 necessary order, but the officer commanding the sub- 
 division said to me, "I think both of the Serjeants so 
 " inefficient that I would rather have neither of them: 
 " I would rather pay a militia serjeant per drill at 
 " my own expense." I, therefore, did not raise the 
 question as to my authority to order one of the Serjeants 
 to do duty with the subdivision. I have since been 
 informed by another officer of a subdivision, not in 
 my own battalion, that after he had obtained the 
 consent of his colonel to make an arrangement with 
 a di'ill instructor of a ueighI>ouring company, that the 
 arrangement with regard to the drill of his subdivision 
 was not confirmed by the office. I think that the 
 subdivisions should be specially considered, as it often 
 falls upon two or three individuals to maintain them, 
 and it is very hard that they should not have -that 
 assistance which is oflered freely to others. The 
 small money payment which I have suggested w-ould 
 remove all difficulty. There is another matter of 
 small detail, which is this, I think that upon inspec- 
 tions taking place, all rifles ought to be seen, not only 
 those in the hands of the men on parade, but every 
 rifle in the possession of the corps ought to be produced. 
 
 4044. {Col. MacMurdo.) By what means would 
 you carry that out ? — By ordering every rifle to be 
 brought oa to the ground to be inspected. 
 
 4045. But supposing they are not brought to be 
 inspected ? — Then, I presume, there would be a report 
 niade to you. 
 
 4046. You have 218 rifles in the possession of the 
 individual members of your corps, how would you 
 enable the assistant inspector, on making his insjiec- 
 tion, to call them in? — I presume that that is a matter 
 for the captain of each corps to attend to. 
 
 4047. Do you think that those rifles could be 
 brought in for the inspection of the assistant inspector, 
 
 every one of them 'i — I do not see wliy they should 
 not bo brought in. 
 
 4048. Suppose, for example, that the men did not 
 attend on parade, there is no comi)ulsory power, ll is 
 true, that you may punish a num by ordering hi.s riflo 
 to be kept in the armoury afterwards? — I think that 
 if the Ciiptain knew that his credit was at slake if ho 
 dill not have all the rifles produced on parade, that 
 iu most cases he would get it done. I do not wisii 
 to press my suggestion; I only intended to call alten- 
 tion to the fact that if only a fraclioii of llie men are 
 on jiaradc, the insi)eetor may not know wliat condition 
 some of the rifles are in. Tlie inspection of volunteers 
 at the present time jiartakes very much of the character 
 of a review or an exhibition, and the voiiuileer olliccrs, 
 of course, wish to set their cor]is in the best possible 
 light, not only before the inspector but before tiio 
 pulilic, and there is great unwillingness to have ill- 
 drilled men in the ranks. I think that all the rifles 
 could be brought in in carts for inspection, if they 
 could not be brought otherwise. I have boxes for 
 all my rifles, and I could bring them all for inspection. 
 It happened to me at the last inspection that one rifle 
 escaped my notice, owing to my not being obliged to 
 account for the whole numljer. This called my atten- 
 tion to the point. 
 
 4049. {Sir A. Canijdjcll.) Would it meet your ob- 
 jection if staflT armourers were appointed in Govern- 
 ment pay to inspect periodically the rifles, and, if 
 necessary, to repair the rifles of the different corps ? 
 — I have not considered that plan ; I am very much 
 for throwing the responsibility on the individual 
 officers, and leaving them to make their own arrange- 
 ments, provided that the result is satisfactory to the 
 inspecting officer. On the subject of field officers [ 
 may mention one principle that was brought before 
 me by a very intelligent yeomanry officer, who ex- 
 plained to me the reason why corps of yeomanry, and 
 volunteers especially, require field officers, namely, 
 that the captain of a volunteer corps is essentially a 
 recruiting officer, and he cannot alwaj's afford to bo 
 unpopular ; it is therefore a great thing to take un- 
 popular measures out of his province by enabling him 
 to say " That is not my wish, but it is the wish of my 
 " field officer. I am not carrying out my own wishes, 
 " but I am carrying out the orders which I have 
 " received from a superior authority." I may also 
 mention another subject. One very active member 
 of our volunteer association begged me to express to 
 this Commission his own belief, and in his opinion 
 some other gentlemen seem to concur, as to the im- 
 portance of camp instruction. I made considerable 
 efforts last year to establish a camp, and I met with 
 much discouragement, and am not disposed myself to 
 renew the eltbrls at present. I do not think that 
 many of the best volunteers can spare time for con- 
 tinuous service, being busy men ; the busy men make 
 the best volunteers, but they are just those men who 
 cannot afford to be away from home for many days 
 at one time. Many a man who is willing to do his 
 duty and give his time or even his life for his country, 
 if necessary, is not willing to run the risk of inter- 
 rupting his business by illness, except in the direct 
 course of duty. 
 
 4050. {Col. MacMurdo.) You have stated that the 
 inspection ofa corps partakes too much of the naturi> 
 of a review? — I did not, I believe, say "too much;" 
 I intended to say that it necessarily partakes of that 
 chai-acter. 
 
 4051. Have you any suggestions to make as to 
 the mode of proceeding on those occasions that you 
 think would be more agreeable to the volunteers, as 
 to testing their efficiency ? — No. 
 
 4052. You arc aware that it is the duty of the 
 inspecting officer to examine 'the arms and accoutre- 
 ments, the clothing, and general appearance of the 
 men on parade very minutely, allowing the command- 
 ing officer of the corps, when present, to do whatever 
 he pleases, but not requiring him to do things which 
 he might not be able to do, in order to show the 
 
 Z 
 
 Liriil.-Col. 
 T. J). Acland. 
 
 4 .luly 1862.
 
 170 
 
 MIN'UTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN HEFORE THE OOSIMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.-Cnl. 
 T. D. Achtnd. 
 
 ■i July 1862. 
 
 efficiency of the men in military exercises ? — I think 
 that tliat is quite enough. 
 
 4053. He then visits the liciulquarters, examines 
 tiie system of books, aud also the arms iind the 
 armoury ; he also examines the registers of the firing 
 and muster rolls ; are there any other duties that you 
 would suggest he ought to attend to ? — No. I am 
 sure that in our case the duties are very judiciously 
 done hy Colonel Hume. The main point which I 
 suggest is that the inspection should carry practical 
 consequences to the funds of the corps. 
 
 4054. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do your volunteers like 
 beiug mixed with the regular troops ? — I do not 
 think we have any opportunity, except in the neigh- 
 bourliood of Plymouth. I have no doubt that they 
 would feel it to be a great compliment, if they were 
 encouraged to do so ; under our present general 
 I am sure that every encouragement would Ije given 
 to them. There is one other point that I should be 
 glad to allude to, which is the plan adopted by Lord 
 Mount Edgcumbe, and which I thiuk of very great 
 importance. He requires every man to be examined 
 in company drill, in the manual and platoon exercises, 
 in light infantry, by the adjutant, and in musketry 
 by the musketry instructor, and he gives them that 
 card once a year {handing i?i the same) ; if I may 
 venture to speak for him in his absence, I believe that 
 he entertains very strongly the opinion, that a man 
 should be judged to be effective by the results ot his 
 work, and not by the time he has spent upon it. 
 
 4055. ( Viscount Hardinge.) I suppose you have 
 
 no idea what projiortion of the men in the regiment 
 to which you refer liave those cards ? — I cannot state 
 the proportion in the battalion. But I can state an 
 important fact in reference to Lord Mount Edgcumbe's 
 subdivision, consisting of 30 men, at Maker, near his 
 own residence : 25 or 26 out of 30 men passed into 
 the first class, which I look upon as a very great 
 test of the general state of their etliciency. I am 
 sure that if we are assisted in promoting a short 
 annual course of setting up drill and in keeping up 
 the average rate of firing in our corps, if we are 
 supported in that direction, by certain results being 
 the condition of receiving pecuniary aid, that the 
 greatest benefit will result. 
 
 4056. {Lord Overstone.) When you say if you are 
 supported in earryiug it out, to what do you specifi- 
 cally refer ? — That which I have already mentioned, 
 that the aid of the Government should be conditional 
 upon certain results being attained, and that the report 
 of the adjutant and field officer confirmed by the 
 assistant inspector should be required before gratuitous 
 ammunition is served out, or pecuniary aid for drill 
 instruction, travelling expenses, or any other military 
 purpose be paid. I may, perhaps, be allowed in con- 
 clusion to refer to a letter addressed by me to the 
 Secretary of State for War on the lltli April, and 
 which I understood would be referred to this Com- 
 mission, for a more precise statement of the regula- 
 tions which I would propose for the grant of aid 
 towards drill instruction, and of my reasons for ob- 
 jecting to the present regulations. 
 
 The witness vpithdrew. 
 
 Lieut-Col. 
 Hannan. 
 
 Lieut.-Colonel Haeman examined. 
 
 4057. {Chairman.) I believe you are Assistant 
 Inspector of Volunteers in the Northern Division ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4058. How many corps have you under your in- 
 spection ? — There are 107 corps. 
 
 4059. How many men do you muster altogether ? 
 — I believe 15,000 and 16,000 is the amount of the 
 whole force in the north. I cannot tell you exactly 
 the number because they fluctuate. I have not seen 
 the returns of this present quarter. 
 
 4060. Do you consider that the condition of the 
 corps under your inspection is satisfactory ? — I thiuk 
 they may be considered so generiilly, excepting in 
 point of finance. 
 
 4061. Have you heard any complaints from those 
 corps that they are unable to meet their expenses ? — 
 I have heard such complaints very generally. I 
 think that up to this time the majority of them have 
 met their expenses, but now the uniforms are getting 
 shabby, aud in fact in many places they are nearly 
 worn out ; I know now of no instance in which 
 any preparation has been made for renewing them. 
 The greater part of the corps in the north are com- 
 posed of artizans who have been clothed almost 
 entirely from the funds of the corps. 
 
 4062. Do those artizans contribute to the funds fo 
 the corps by annual subscriptions ? — They did at the 
 commencement, but 1 think that has been discon- 
 tinued ; the men generally state that they consider 
 that giving their time and attention is .sufficient. 
 
 4063. Do you find that the corps muster well when 
 you go to inspect them ? — I find on the average that 
 the corps in the to^vns muster about one-half of their 
 enrolled strength ; in the agricultural districts they 
 muster better, generally about two-thirds. 
 
 4064. Are the corps in the agricultural districts 
 principally administrative battalions ? — They are. 
 
 4065. Do you hear any complaints of the difficulty 
 of bringing the distant companies together on those 
 days ? — Very great complaints ; in fact I think that 
 the administrative system as it is at present is very 
 defective. I do not think that it works well ; certainly 
 not in battalions under my supervision. 
 
 4066. In what respects do you thiuk it does not 
 
 work well ? — I consider that the position of both the 
 commanding officer and of the adjutant is most un- 
 satisfactory, and that neither of them can carry out 
 their duties in the manner they ought to do, or as it 
 is desirable that they should do. The commanding 
 officer has no real authority ; he cannot call a parade. 
 If he sees anything going on amiss he has no power of 
 immediate interference, and the consequence is that I 
 find the commanding officer in most of the adminis- 
 trative battalions in the north interferes in no way 
 whatever. If the corps wish to meet together, he 
 will go and take the command of them ; but as it 
 entails expense upon them, he is diffident in asking 
 each of the corps to assemble. 
 
 4067. Do you find that they visit each of the corps 
 separately ? — ^I do not thiuk they do. 
 
 4068. If they did I presume they would have very 
 little authority ? — None whatever ; they cannot order 
 tliem to parade. 
 
 4069. Are their arms generally in good condition ? 
 — Generally speaking they are, but the regulations of 
 the War Office as to the arms are not strictly carried 
 out. In very few instances are the arms all kept in 
 store where it is directed they should be, unless by 
 special authority from the commanding officer. Men 
 living at a distance are allowed to keep them at home. 
 When I complain of this, I am told by officers in 
 command of corps, that they have no means of keeping 
 the arms in store ; they ought properly to provide 
 stores, and persons to look after them, but they let 
 the men take them home to their own residences, 
 and say that they find them in better order in that 
 manner, but I thiuk that those in stores are always 
 better kept. 
 
 4070. When they are kept in store I presume there 
 is some one to clean them and look after them ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4071. Are you enabled to report upou the arms 
 which are in the hands of the individual members of 
 the corps who do not attend ? — I always before in- 
 specting a corps give as much notice as I can, generally 
 a month or more, of my intended visit, aud theu I 
 think they generally work up for in.spection, which 
 perhaps does good, and they get the arms generally
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 171 
 
 in, with few exceptions I generally see nil the arms 
 when I inspect a corps either in store or on parade. 
 
 4072. (.SVr A. CampbeU.) Do you find that the 
 officers of volunteers on the average are ([ualified for 
 their work ? — They are, generally speaking, very 
 deficient ; the men know twice as much as their 
 officers, and consequently they do not like to come to 
 parade. I find that in many of the administrative 
 battalions tlie connnanding officers liave no opportunity 
 of learning their work ; unless they attach themselves 
 to some regiment, 1 do not see how they can become 
 qualified. 
 
 4073. Are j'ou speaking of cduimanding officers of 
 corps ? — I am speaking now more jtarticularh' of 
 commanding officers of battalions. The commanding 
 ofiicers of corps in company drill generally know 
 their work moderately well ; and in some instances 
 they know it very well indeed. 
 
 4074. (^Chnirman.) Are they provided with drill 
 instructors ? — In the majority of the corps they are. 
 
 4075. {Sir A. Campbell.) You have stated that 
 tlie commanding officers of administrative battalions 
 are not in the practice of visiting their various corps; 
 do the adjutants do so? — Yes, the adjutants are in 
 the habit of doing so, but the corps do not turn out 
 well when the adjutants go to see them, and I think 
 in many instances the corps dislike turning out for 
 the adjutant ; they do not like his visits. I think 
 that in this case it is very important that some 
 different arrangement should be made. I am sure 
 that if an administrative battalion in my district was 
 called out by the adjutant, you would see that the 
 general attendance was ridiculously small. 
 
 4076. Do you think that that arises from any neg- 
 lect on their jiart to give due notice of their visits ? — 
 No, I think that the adjutants feel that they are 
 in a very difficult position with respect to the corps ; 
 in some places, where the adjutants are liked by the 
 men, they turn out for them well, l)ut in other instances 
 I cannot tell why they do not turn out well. 
 
 4077. Do you think it would obviate those objec- 
 tions if the administrative battalions were put in the 
 same position as regiments of yeomanry with regard 
 to the relations existing between the commanding 
 officers and the officers of the diffi?rent companies ? — 
 I cannot answer that question. I do not sufficiently 
 know the system pursued in the yeomanry. 
 
 4078. Can vou suggest any mode by which an im- 
 provement might" be eifected ?— I think that a very 
 great improvement might be made by requiring a dif- 
 ferent system to be pursued in order to render a man an 
 effective ; I think that the present system works very 
 badly in my district ; I think that instead of a man being 
 rendered an effective member by attending so many 
 drills, (a course of 24 drills,) it would be much better 
 he should attain a certain standard of efficiency, 
 and I think in that way you would get a better class 
 of men into the volunteer force who would be equally 
 efficient. I have been thinking the matter over, and I 
 should suggest that if auy capitation grant be made, or if 
 it is the intention of Government to give any additional 
 money to the volunteer force, instead of it being given 
 for every effective member, it should be given for 
 every efficient member. I do not believe that the corps 
 in the north will object to that system, and I should 
 therefore propose that before a volunteer is allowed 
 to participate in any capitation money he should have 
 attained a certain standard of efficiency ; on joining 
 lie should be drilled in musketry and platoon and 
 manual instruction, and in the general course of 
 company drill, and then he should pass an examina- 
 tion before the commanding officer and the adjutant, 
 and after having done that he should be reckoned 
 as an efficient and allowed accordingly any advan- 
 tages that an effective member may be entitled to. 
 Then I should propose that instead of a man attending 
 a certain number of drills he should have all the ad- 
 vantages of constant drill whenever he chose to 
 attend, Init that on two occasions in the year he should 
 be required to be present, unless some very good rea- 
 son were given, and that on those occasions the com- 
 
 manding oificer and adjutant should be present, and 
 then if a man passed muster and showed that he pos- 
 sessed a certain knowledge of his work he should be 
 allowed to continue as an efficient. 
 
 4079. ( Viscount Ilnrdingc.) Do you mean that he 
 should be i)resenl in battalion or in his company ? — 
 In battalion would be more desiraVde if it could be 
 done without exjicnse, but with his company. At the 
 ]n'csent time the adjutant very often does not see 
 many of the men ; many never attend drill except on 
 some special occasions, or a review : and moreover, 
 parades that now are called drills, really are not drills. 
 1 have had occasion to look into the attendance rolls of 
 some of the corps in the north, and I find that the church 
 parade is reckoned as a drill, or somebody invites the 
 corps out to some entertainment, and that is reckoned 
 as a drill ; the men mar(di out to the entertainment, 
 and, perhaps, fire their five rounds of ammunition and 
 marcli home again, but they have no drill ; and I think 
 that it would be much better to have a standard of 
 efficiency rather than to require that the men should 
 attend so many parades in a year as at present. 
 
 4080. Then you would be practically giving the 
 capitation grant to everj^ man v.'ho attended twice 
 a year ? — No, I would give it to every man who 
 was passed as an efficient ; he should be seen twice a 
 year by the commanding officer and the adjutant ; the 
 adjutant should keep a roll of every man in the corps, 
 and at the end of those parades he should notify 
 against the name of every man whether he was an 
 efficient member or not ; if not, he should be cautioned 
 that he must work up, and then if a second time it 
 happened that he was not efficient, he should not be 
 entitled to the benefit of the capitation money. 
 
 4081. {Sir A. Camphcll.) You would depend 
 entirely upon the adjutant, and throw upon him the 
 responsibility of returning a man as efficient or non- 
 efficient ? — I would leave that with the commanding 
 officer of an administrative battalion. I think that 
 he might visit his battalion twice a year, and then 
 when the assistant inspector came round I think 
 that e^'ery member ought to be obliged to attend 
 at the annual inspection, imless he could give some 
 good excuse for not doing so. 
 
 4082. {Viscount Ildrdiiifie.) In a question affecting 
 money, do you not think that that would be liable to 
 abuse, and that the adjutant might pass a man who 
 was really not efficient ? — No ; I think again that 
 that the inspector should have to see tliese corps once 
 in a year, and if he had reason to think that the 
 standard of efficiency was too low, he should report 
 that to this department, in order that it might be seen 
 whether the adjutant had carried on his duties 
 properly or not. 
 
 4083. And if the standard was too low the Govern- 
 ment money should be withheld ? — Yes. 
 
 4084. {Col. MacMiirflo.) This has no reference, I 
 suppose, to the class of men who are termed effective 
 by the Act of Parliament, do you mean that all effi- 
 cients are to be legally considered effectives ? — 
 Efficients in my view should be legally considered 
 effectives. 
 
 4085. And be exempt from the ballot ? — Yes ; at 
 the present time in most of the corps in the north 
 there are certain men who have been very regular in 
 their attendance at drill, .and who are well drilled, 
 men who like the thing ; but then there are about 
 one fourth of the members of the corps ; who at 
 the annual inspection, or upon any occasi<m when the 
 corps has been invited out io any gentleman's ])ark, 
 come in and destroy the general appearance of the 
 corps to the annoyance of the men who have been 
 working hard, and who perha])s leave the corps in 
 consequence in disgust : under the present system 
 there is no diffin-ence made b?tween a man who learns 
 his work well, and a didl man to whom 40 drills are 
 of no use. 
 
 4086. (Viscount Hnrdinge.) But would it not be a 
 very invidious thing for the captain of a comp.any to 
 tell a man to fall out, because he was unfit ? — \ es ; 
 when I go to inspect a corps I usually find that 
 
 Z 2 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 Ilarimtn. 
 
 4 July 18Ct!.
 
 172 
 
 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 Harman. 
 
 4 July 18152. 
 
 the commanding officer says, " You must remember 
 " that there are now many men in the ranks who 
 " liave not been in the ranks since you were here 
 " last year." 
 
 4087. {Major-Gen. Eyre^ Do you think it woukl 
 be a good plan to define in detail what a volunteer 
 ought to know in order to be considered an effective ? 
 — Certainly ; I do not think there ought to be too 
 high a standard required ; but that a man should have 
 a general knowledge of platoon exercise, and prelimi- 
 nary mut^ketry instruction and company drill. The 
 .idjutants at the present moment are in a most difficult 
 position ; they go to corps to impart instruction, 
 instead of which, perhaps, if there is a pretty 
 good muster, whoever is in command of the corps 
 very seldom gives it up to the adjutant, and several 
 adjutants have told me that they have not drilled 
 their corps half-a-dozen times. The senior captain, 
 if the field officer is away, is only too delighted 
 to step out and say, " I shall command the parade," 
 and in consequence of that the men are badly 
 commanded, and they learn nothing, but they lose 
 what they have learned, and they are annoyed, and 
 the adjutant is aunoj'ed, and every one is annoyed 
 but the captain. I think myself that the position 
 of the adjutants ought to be bettered with respect 
 to the volunteers. 
 
 4088. {Col. Mac31urdo.) But does not the same 
 thing happen in other services sometimes, and is it 
 not an inconvenience which every service is liable to? 
 — Yes, but I would propose that the adjutants should 
 have another title affixed to them besides that of 
 adjutant, in the event on their h.aving to report on the 
 efficiency of the men. I think that an adjutant 
 should be called an adjutant, and, say, " Deputy as- 
 " sistant inspector," or an "Assistant inspector," for 
 a certain district, and that he should have authority 
 to inspect the arms and report upon them quarterly. 
 I think that he ought to inspect the arms quarterly, 
 and report upon the general state of the corps 
 quarterl}'. 
 
 4089. How do you think that authority would do 
 in his relations with his commanding officer ? — It is 
 merely with reference to what the adjutants should 
 do as to the arms ; I think that the adjutant should be 
 held responsible for seeing every arm that has been 
 issued to a corps once a quarter, and at the present 
 time I am convinced that iu many corps the arms are 
 not seen perhaps for six or eight months at a time ; the 
 adjutant saj's that it is not his duty, and he does not 
 interfere with the arms. 
 
 4090. The arms being the property of the corps 
 vested in the commanding officers ? — Yes. 
 
 4091. {Lord Ovcrstone.) I understand it to be your 
 opinion that drills are merely a means to an end, the 
 end being the efficiency of the soldier ? — Yes. 
 
 4092. You think that some better standard of effi- 
 ciency iu the soldier might be established than the 
 present one of attendance at a certain number of drills? 
 —Yes, I do. 
 
 4093. Do you think that the efficiency might be 
 e,xamined into, and pronounced upon by some com- 
 petent officers in the same way that the efficiency in 
 scholarship is examined into, and pronounced upon at 
 the universities ? — I think it might be so done; I think 
 that there should be more than one officer. 
 
 4094. A competent board ? — Yes ; I should leave 
 it with the commanding officer, and the adjutant or 
 the inspector of the district. 
 
 409.J. I think you have stated that in your opinion 
 the whole of the volunteer force which comes under 
 your inspection is in a satisfactory condition, saving 
 the question of pecuniary pressure ? — There are some 
 instances in which unanimity does not prevail in the 
 corps, and where the commanding officers are un- 
 popular, which, of course, tends to work badly ; 
 beyond that I think that, generally speaking, the 
 volunteer force in the north may l)e considered in a 
 satisfactory condition. 
 
 4096. Are they in a satisfactory condition with 
 regard to their discipline, the condition of their arms 
 
 and accoutrements, and their capacity to make an 
 efficient use of them ? — I think that, taking them 
 generallj-, I may say yes. Some of their accoutre- 
 ments are not of a serviceable description ; they would 
 not do for service ; a great many of the corps have 
 copied the accoutrements worn by the Victoria rifles, 
 whose pouch slings in the centre of the back, so that 
 no knajjsack could be worn with it. The arms gene- 
 rally are serviceable certainly, and the discipline of 
 the volunteers I think I may consider good. But there 
 is no real discipline in the volunteer movement, and 
 no discipline can be enforced ; for example, if a man 
 is annoyed, and you say something to him which he 
 does not like ; he simply gives 14 days' notice and 
 resigns. 
 
 4097. As a practical test of their efficiency, upon 
 the supposition that the Government found it necessary 
 to call out all the volunteers for active service, do you 
 think that the volunteers who have come under your 
 inspection would be found iu a state competent to 
 render valuable assistance as auxiliary to the regular 
 army ? — Most decidedly. I am confident upon that 
 point. 
 
 4098. Can j'ou go further, and state whether you 
 think they would be competent to act as a separate 
 and independent liody with safety and efficiency ? — I 
 think that they would not, on account of not being 
 properly officered ; that refers to their acting in- 
 dependentl}-. 
 
 4099. You think that that deficiency which you 
 have already alluded to, in the knowledge of the 
 officers, would not be so serious as to impair the 
 efficiency of the volunteer force, if acting in co- 
 operation with the regular army, and as a supplement 
 to it ; but that it would be a serious consideration, if 
 they were called upon to act independently ? — I think 
 that it would be a serious consideration under any 
 circumstances ; but I think that if they had the 
 advantage of being with the regular forces, it would 
 not be felt to the same extent. 
 
 4100. Can you suggest any practical mode, by 
 which the difficulty which you have alluded to as to 
 the condition of the officers, could be remedied ? — It 
 is a most difficult matter. I think it would be 
 desirable that all officers of volunteer corps should 
 have to show a certain standard of efficiency at a 
 general annual inspection. 
 
 4101. You think that something like the same test 
 of efficiency that we have already iilluded to as to be 
 applied to the volunteers generally should be specially 
 applied to the officers ? — I think so, most decidedly. 
 
 4102. {Viscount Hardinge.') How would you carry 
 it out ? Sometimes an inspector has not much time 
 to inspect ? — It would be impossible in my opinion to 
 carry it out if we had to perform the same duties 
 that we have to perform at the present time. I may 
 say that my district is so large ; I have so many- 
 corps to visit that I find it is perfectly impossible to 
 carry out my duties in the w.ay I think they ought 
 to be ; for example, during the last month I never 
 passed one day at my own headquarters, which are 
 at York. I am constantly travelling, and 1 have an 
 immense deal of correspondence to carry on. I am 
 allowed no clerk, and my duties are greater than I 
 consider I can properly carry out. I think, therefore, 
 that if the oiRcers had to undergo an examination 
 before the inspector, that he would have to devote 
 more time to it than he has now at his command. 
 
 4103. You think that it would necessitate the ap- 
 pointment of a larger number of officers ? I think 
 
 that if the adjutants were named deputy assistant 
 in.spectors they might inspect the men in single com- 
 p.anies, excepting perhaps in particular instances; and 
 if a company was not reported satisfactorily of, I 
 think the district inspector might be directed to 
 visit that conqiany ; but at the present time I go all 
 over the north of England, seeing single companies 
 averaging about 40 rank and file on parade, and I 
 think that with regard to the inspector, it woulil be 
 sufficient if he could see those companies when liny 
 meet for purposes of battalion drill.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FOECE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 173 
 
 4104. {Col. MacMurdo.) How do yon think it 
 ■would do to give the adjutants of administrative 
 bactnlions tlie authority of deputy assistant inspectors 
 under tlie orders of the field ollicer conunanding tlu^ 
 Inittalions ? — I think it would work in some instanees, 
 l)ut unfortunately I do not consider that all cennuand- 
 ing officers commanding administrative Inittalions 
 have a sntlieient knowledge of what is reipiired of 
 (hem, or that they pay sutlicient attention to become 
 (pialified. 
 
 410o. You are aware that at tlu! present time the 
 dut}' of the adjutant of an administrative battalion is 
 to visit the com]ionent parts of that battalion ? — Yes. 
 
 4106. He visits e.ach company very much in the 
 character of an inspector, although not with the 
 authority of an inspector ? — He has no .luthority 
 whatever. 
 
 4107. Suppose that authority were given to him 
 as inspector in liis battalion, under the authority of 
 the fiidd officer commanding the battalion, how do 
 you think that would work ? — I think it would be a 
 very great improvement on the present system. 
 
 4108. {Viscount IlarcUnge.) Are the adjutants in 
 your opinion as efficient as they ought to be ? — They 
 all pass an examination before they are appointed. 
 
 4109. {Sir A. Camphell.) Do you think that the 
 adjutants are all equally efficient, or that they vary ? 
 . — They are certainly not all equally efiicient. 
 
 4110. {Lord Oi-erstonc.) Upon the supposition 
 that the volunteer force was called out to act as 
 auxiliary to the regular army, do j'ou think that in 
 any case it would be most important that they should 
 be clothed similarly to the regular troops ?— I think 
 it is very desirable that they should be all clothed 
 alike, or nearly so. 
 
 4111. You think it important that they should be 
 clothed like the regul.ar troops, so that when called 
 out in front of an enemy there should be as little 
 means as possible of distinguishing one force from 
 the other? — I think that the present equipment is too 
 varied. 
 
 4112. {Sir G. A. Wetherall.) Do you think the 
 volunteers would be efficient auxiliaries to the army 
 in the field ? — As they are at present I should say no 
 in consequence of their equipment. I consider that 
 the men gcner.ally have attained to efliciency in drill 
 very near to the present disembodied militia, and that 
 as riflemen they would form a very efficient body 
 indeed. 
 
 4113. {Lord Overstone.) I am desirous of ascer- 
 taining your opinion upon this point, whether upon 
 the supposition that the Government found it neces- 
 sary suddenly to call out the whole of the volunteer 
 force for the protection of the kingdom, you think 
 that the volunteers who come under your inspection 
 ■would at once turn out capable of rendering valuable 
 assistance as a supplement to the regular army ? — 
 They could not do so at once, on account of their 
 equipment not being complete ; they have no knap- 
 sacks or means of taking the field. 
 
 4114. Do you think that knapsacks for the short 
 service which the volunteers would probably have to 
 render are essential ? — Most decided!}-. 
 
 4115. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) Would not the havre- 
 sack answer every purpose ? — They want some de- 
 scription of knapsack ; a man must have a change of 
 clothing. 
 
 4116^ {Lord Oversfo/ie.) Do you think that the 
 volunteers who have come under your inspection are 
 at this moment in such a st.ate that if suddenly called 
 upon to act as a supplement to the regular army in 
 protecting the integrity of the countrj^, they would 
 he efficient for that purpose ? — No. 
 
 4117. Will you have the goodness to state as dis- 
 tinctly as you can in what respect they would be 
 deficient, and by -ndiat means you think their defi- 
 ciencies could be remedied ? — They would be deficient 
 in their gener.al equipment, and in some instances their 
 accoutrements are not calculated for service ; I refer 
 to the corps that have their pouches made to fit mid- 
 way between the shoulder and the ■waist, that sling 
 
 across the back ; they are elastic pouches and I consi- 
 der that they are unfitted for general .service ; they 
 have no great coats, and in fact no means of carrying 
 any change of clothing, and as yet they have not 
 been taught the duties of a camp. The volunteers in 
 the north have never been eiicamped, and they have 
 no means of looking after their cooking, i*ce. or of con- 
 veying their luggage and stores. 
 
 4118. Will you be good enough to ennnu'rate the 
 deficiencies that you think would discpialil'y them for 
 effl'ctual service at home ? — 1 think they may be em- 
 braced in this, that the volunteer wants everything in 
 the shape of the general equipment of the soldier 
 except his arms and accoutrements, which are the only 
 things he has now to enable him to take the field. 
 
 4119. {Chairman.) And those accoutrements are 
 not in all instances (piite what they ought to be ? — No. 
 
 4120. {Lord Overstone.) Is it your opinion that 
 the volunteer force, if immediately called out, would 
 be very inefficient for the purpose of ofiering material 
 resistance to the enemy ? — Yes ; unless they could be 
 innnediately provided ■with knapsacks ami necessaries 
 lor taking the field. 
 
 4121. You think that as regards discipline and 
 their capacity to use their arms they are in a satis- 
 factory state ? — I think so generally, except as I have 
 already said as to the officers. 
 
 4122. ( Viscoimt Hurdiniie.) With regard to great- 
 coats and knapsacks, suj)posing that in the case of an 
 emergency the C4overnment were to issue those 
 articles to each volunteer, would 3-our objections as to 
 their efficiency in those respects be removed ? — Yes. 
 
 4123. They would then only labour under this dif- 
 ficulty, that they had not been taught to march in 
 heavy marching order ? — There would be that and 
 also this, that they have no staflT at the present mo- 
 ment qualified to look after these matters ; no quali- 
 fied quartermaster -who -would be indispensable in 
 case of taking the field. 
 
 4124. {Major- Gen. El/re.) I suppose you consider 
 their present equipment sufficient for peace time ? — 
 Yes I do. 
 
 4125. {Lord Overstone.) Your opinion with regard 
 to the general condition of the volunteer force does 
 not include the artillery volunteers, or do they come 
 under j'our observation ? — No, they do not gener.'dly. 
 
 4126. {Col. Mac3lurdo.) You cannot speak to the 
 scientific part of their arms, but yon can speak of the 
 artillery volunteers in your division with reference to 
 their establishment, their general appearance on p.a- 
 rade, their arms and equipments as they stand on 
 parade ? — Yes. I have not had any opportunities 
 of seeing their arms on the coast, for I have not 
 visited many places where there are artillery volun- 
 teers. 
 
 4127. {Major Horcourt.) When you refer to their 
 arms do you mean the great guns or the carbines ? — I 
 speak now of the great guns. 
 
 4128. {Lieut.-Cnl. Barttelot.) You have said a 
 great deal about the inefiiciency of (he ofiicers, do 
 you think that the officers have improved since the 
 formation of the volunteer force, or do you think that 
 many of them joined for the purpose of obtaining a 
 certain rank and position, and having done that they 
 have taken no further trouble in the ra.atter ? — I 
 consider that they have greatly improved, but they 
 have very great difficulty in learning their duties. 
 
 4129. {Sir A. Camphell.) Does your observation 
 as to the officers of administrative battalions ajiply 
 equally to consolidated battalions ? — Not so generally ; 
 my observations were meant to apply more to admi- 
 nistr.ative corps. 
 
 4130. But there are, I believe, consolidated batta- 
 lions in your district ? — Yes, 16. 
 
 4131. Are they in a higher state of efficiency ? — 
 I think the officers are, certainly. 
 
 4132. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) If it wei'c made a con- 
 dition, before any officer was g;ize(ted, that he should 
 be attached to a regiment of the line for a month or 
 six weeks, do you think that would tend much to 
 prevent them coming forward ? — Yes ; I think it 
 
 /-A (J 
 
 Lieitt.-Cul. 
 Hiinimii. 
 
 4 July 1862,
 
 174 
 
 MrNTTTES OF EVTDElirCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMIfSSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut. -Col. 
 Harman. 
 
 4 Jiily 1862. 
 
 ■would. I do not think thiit it could be carried out. 
 In some parts of the north of England large 
 landed proprietors are generally the persons who 
 have taken up the volunteer movement very warmly; 
 they are most valuable men at the head of the 
 corps on account of their position, but at the 
 same time they can neither find time, nor, perhaps, 
 have they the inclination to qualify themselves for 
 their appointments, but they are men who would be 
 only too happy at any moment to relinquish their 
 commands if any more efficient men could be found. 
 
 4133. Do you think it could be carried out in the 
 junior ranks ? — I do not think it could be carried out, 
 for I do not think they could find the time. 
 
 4134. {Viscoiint Harclinge.) You are aware that 
 there have been instances of volunteer officers being 
 attached to regiments in the line, particularly in 
 large towns where troops are in garrison ? — Yes, in 
 many instances, but in the district to which I am 
 attached it happens that there are no regular troops, 
 except two companies, which are at Newcastle. I mean 
 infantry. With regard to the drill serjeauts, I may 
 say that I think it would be desirable that they should 
 be placed more immediately under the control of the 
 adjutant ; at the present time those men have little or 
 nothing to do, and I think that in some of the ad- 
 ministrative corps they would do equally well, or 
 better, with fewer non-commissioned officers, if the 
 drill Serjeants could be placed under the adjutants and 
 sent about to the different corps, where they might 
 be most required. 
 
 4135. {Lietit.-Col. Barttelot.) Do you think that 
 the travelling allowance for the adjutant is sufficient ? 
 — No, in some instances it certainly is not, and it 
 happens that the adjutant, who does the most work, 
 is the worst paid man. In some instances the adju- 
 tants have a large circuit to visit ; there is one in 
 Northumberland where the distance is 240 miles round 
 his district, and yet there is no diffin-ence made be- 
 tween the pay of that adjutant and the pay of a man 
 who has only a distance of 7 or 8 miles to go. 
 
 4136. {Cnl. Mac3Iiirdo.') Referring to your sug- 
 gestion about the serjeaut instructors, do you propose 
 that they should be kept at the headquarters of an 
 administrative battalion, in the way of a depot or a 
 school of instruction, and that the men who were sent 
 out to the corps requiring instruction should be under 
 the orders of the commanding officer of the battalion? 
 — I think it would be better. I think at the present 
 time that the serjeaut instructors have not sufficient 
 to do to keep them employed. May I refer to the 
 duties which fall upon inspectors. Last year I was 
 tra'felling from the 21st of February until the 4th 
 November, and during all that time I was constantly 
 on the move. I inspected 88 distinct corps, I had to 
 organize three reviews, and I had to attend at dif- 
 ferent places to make certain investigations. To do 
 all this my expenses were very gi-eat indeed, and I 
 consider that the pay of an assistant inspector is 
 quite inadequate to meet these expenses. Although 
 I am a substantive field officer I am not placed on 
 the same footing as other officers in the army who 
 are holding the rank of field officers. I am not 
 allowed the same money for lodging as surgeons are 
 who rank as field officers or paymasters, or other field 
 officers on the slaflT. I have to keep two horses, for 
 I have to appear mounted on the parades, and I 
 frequently take a lioi'se with me sometimes for a week, 
 travelling from place to place ; to meet that expense 
 I am allowed a bare fare for travelling, and 1*. a day 
 to cover all the expenses of a servant ; and the con- 
 sequence is that, I am obliged when I go away to put 
 one horse out at livery, and if I take my servant, — 
 I have no servant nor clerk, nor anyone to forward 
 my letters, or anything else, and I think that at the 
 least we should be allowed the same advantages that 
 other field officers have who are on the staff, namely, 
 two servants, and an additional allowance for lodg- 
 ing money. 
 
 4137. \Major-Gen. Eyre.) You do not speak with 
 reference to leckoning your time towards promotion ? 
 
 — I am under the impression that that is allowed to 
 reckon. 
 
 4138. But at the present time you are speaking 
 only of the expenses ? — Yes. 
 
 4139. {Col. MacMurdo.) You are allowed 6s. a 
 week for an office ? — I am now allowed that sum. 
 
 4140. And there is a certain allowance made for 
 a clerk when you are making arrangements for great 
 reviews ? — Yes, I am allowed 21. a quarter lor a 
 clerk. 
 
 4141. And 6s. a week for an office ? — Yes. 
 
 4142. Do you find that that is not sufficient ? — I 
 find that it is totally inadequate ; and if I employed 
 a clerk temporarily for a few days it would take nie 
 more time to teach that man his duty than to do it 
 myself. 
 
 4143. Do you think you would have employment 
 for a permanent clerk ? — Yes, for a permanent clerk 
 during the summer months. 
 
 4144. What would his employment be ? — His em- 
 ployment would be to open any official letters during 
 my absence, and to make copies of letters, which I 
 cannot now have done ; to forward correspondence to 
 me during my absence ; and to assist me in making 
 out my reports, he. 
 
 4145. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Are you satisfied with 
 your present powers ? — I consider that I have no real 
 power in connexion with the volunteers ; but I have 
 found no difficulty in carrying out my duties in 
 consequence of not having more power ; hitherto I 
 have always met with the greatest courtesy, and any- 
 thing that I have suggested has generally been 
 followed or been taken notice of. 
 
 4146. You say, as an inspecting officer, that you 
 have no power ? — I have so far no power that I 
 cannot command a parade. 
 
 4147. When you go to inspect what do you do ? — 
 I always write some time lieforehand to ascertain from 
 the commanding officer about what time will suit his 
 convenience for the inspection ; and so much is this 
 the case that many of my engagements to inspect 
 volunteer corps are already made for next month, and 
 the month after that, which were made as long as 
 two mouths ago. 
 
 4148. When you are present at an inspection, and 
 you see things that you consider are wrong, or you 
 perceive deficiencies in the officers, have you no 
 power to point those matters out, and to find fault ? — 
 I point out to the officers any deficiencies that I 
 observe. 
 
 4149. I infer, from what you have stated, that you 
 are merely to look on, and not to say a word ? — When 
 I inspect a corps, I remark upon anything that strikes 
 me as objectionable. I always notice anj'thing I see 
 wrong. Referring to the deficiency of the officers, I 
 do not wish it to be inferred that the officers of volun- 
 teers in the northern district are more deficient than in 
 other parts of England. I think that they are not so 
 efficient as the men. 
 
 4150. Can you not say, I perceive so and so, and 
 all that is very wrong, and I request that that may be 
 rectified by the next inspection. Would not that be 
 received as an order ; and have j'ou not the ]iOwer of 
 ordering that such things should be rectified, and do 
 not the same rules govern every administrative batta- 
 lion ? — The same rules do, and the rules lor my 
 guidance are in the red book. 
 
 4151. {Lord Ovcrstone.) Your power, I conceive, 
 consists in inspecting, commenting, suggesting, and 
 reporting ? — Exactly. 
 
 4152. But you have not the power of ordering ? — 
 Exactly so. 
 
 4153. {Chairman.) Are your remarks genei'ally 
 attended to? — I think they are generally. I hope so ; 
 but I only see the corps once a year. 
 
 4154. {Sir A. Campbell.) At all events, do _you 
 find that they receive your remarks in good jJ-ii't ? — 
 Always. 
 
 4155. ( Viscount Hardi7ige.) Do you find, generally 
 speaking, that a uniform system of drill is carried 
 out ; for example, take the administrative Itattalions ?
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OK THK VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 175 
 
 Yes ; at the present time the whole of the vohinteer 
 
 corps in the nortli are drilled according to the field 
 exercises which are laid down for the array, they 
 adopt those as their guide. 
 
 4156. I presume you consider that tlie lieUl ollicers 
 and the adjutants are responsible for that uniform 
 system being carried out as far as tlieir powers go ? 
 — Ye.s. 
 
 4157. {Col. MacMurdo.) Referring to your state- 
 ment that you have no power; suppose you saw a 
 corps practising at a range that you considered unsafe, 
 should you have no power to stop their firing ? — An 
 instance of that kind occurred not long ago in which 
 a farmer in the north wrote to me complaining that 
 the vohniteers were in the hal)it of practising at a 
 place that endangered his safety and that of his 
 cattle, and he appealed to mo for a remedy. I in- 
 formed him that such and such a place was the 
 
 authorized range, and tiiat if the volunteers practised 
 in other places he must appeal to the civil power, but 
 that I had no power to interfere. 
 
 4158. If you saw n volunteer corps in milirary for- 
 mal ion skirmishing over a field with l)all jiractice, 
 would you not order them back (o their (pnirters ? — 
 Yes, decidedly ; if I saw the Government arms being 
 misapplied, I "should consider that I had authority in 
 that respect. 
 
 4159. If you saw any gross irregularity take place 
 on parade when the men were under arms, you would 
 stop it, would you not ? — Certainly. 
 
 4160. (Major-den. Ei/re.) I understand from you 
 that you have no defined powers ? — No. 
 
 4U)1. {Sir A. Campbell.) Have you found any 
 difficulty occur from the want of those defined powers? 
 — I never have in my district. 
 
 I.mtt.-Col. 
 Ilitnnnn. 
 
 4 July 1SG2. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Captain Phillip St.u>leton Humberston, M.F., examined. 
 
 4162. {Chairman.) What corps do you command ? 
 — The 6th Cheshire. I am captain commandant. 
 
 4163. We understand that you have some sug- 
 gestions to offer to the Commission ? — I wish to 
 mention what I have thought we required to keep 
 the force on a proper footing at Chester. Chester 
 is a pl.aee of about ;}0.000 inhabitants, which I think 
 may be taken as a fair specimen of many of the 
 country towns. I jiropose to show what we have 
 done, and what I think is necessary to keep the corps 
 together. We raised three companies of rifle volun- 
 teers in Chester, and one company of artillery ; they 
 were partly equipped by subscription.s, amounting to 
 about 1,200/., contributed voluntarily by the inhabi- 
 tants. Of that sum about 150/. was expended in 
 fitting up a drill-room and store for arms, about 100/. 
 upon a range and targets. Then there were the drill 
 instructors and various other expenses, and of the 
 remainder about 2s. 3d. was applied to the clothing 
 of the rifle volunteers, and about Is. Sd., or not quite 
 so much, to the artillery company. We have been in 
 existence about three years. We have paid our cur- 
 rent expenses partially from the subscriptions in the 
 corps, the subscription lieing 10s. Gd., from each ofhcer 
 and man, and partly from contrilmtions from the gene- 
 ral subscription of 1,200/., which was managed by a 
 committee independent of the corps. The subscriptions 
 in the corps I find to be very objectionable ; they have 
 the effect of keeping the men away from drill. About 
 one-third of the rifle corps are mechanics and labourers, 
 who cannot fairly be asked for a money subscription, 
 the others are chiefly men who equip themselves. A 
 certain portion of the men have paid their subscrip- 
 tions regularly, another portion of them liave got 
 regularly into arrear ; asking for subscriptions was 
 a great hindrance to the attendance at drill. I 
 used to represent to the corps that the subscriptions 
 were iu arrear, and must be paid ; but I found that 
 they were not paid ; and then the only alternative 
 was to proceed against the men before the magis- 
 trates, which T did not choose to do. This last year 
 wo came to the conclusion that we must have some 
 other means of raising funds, and I said that during 
 the year 1862 I should require no subscriptions to be 
 paid, and I found immediately that the attendance at 
 drill improved. As a substitute for the subscription, 
 we raised funds by an amateur dramatic perfornmnce, 
 and by a volunteer ball, but I consider it derogatory 
 and objectionable that a great national movement 
 should be dependent for funds upon such sources. 
 Then, with regard to what we require for oiu- future 
 purposes ; our total number is 243 rifle volunteers, 
 who are, or should be effectives. I am not quite 
 certain what our return was last year, but there were 
 from aljout 50 to 60 who were non-effective, that i.s, 
 who hud not qualified by attending the requisite 
 number of drills. My impression is, if an allowance 
 could be made of 1/. per effective man would pay our 
 
 current expends, (exclusive of the armourer,) that is, 
 the rent of range, the rent of drill shed, markers, tar- 
 gets, rejmirs of arms, gas, coal, water, taxes, repairs, 
 and incidentals. About 170/. a year would pay all 
 those expenses very readily, and if an allowance 
 of 2/. a year was m.ade, we might keep uj)our number, 
 and clothe the same number of men that we now 
 have, who are clothed by means of the subscriptions. 
 At present we do not receive any men who do not 
 eciuiji themselves, but we have kept up our numljers ; 
 and if an allowance was made, having reference to 
 the effective men only, it would be a great stimulus to 
 attendance at drill ; the men would feel that they were 
 earninst their money, and that although they paid no 
 subscriptions out of their owa pockets they were iu 
 fact contributing to the wclfixre of the corps, by earning 
 the money allowed to them as effectives. With regard 
 to clothing I think it would have a beneficial effect in 
 this way, I do not think that the volunteers would 
 like receiving clothing direct from the Government, 
 .and that they would object to it ; I think it would 
 1)0 considered that they were not wearing their own 
 clothes, but if an allowance was made for the effective 
 men they would in fact have earned their money, and 
 to a certain extent they would consider that they 
 had paid for their clothing. 
 
 4164. What do you call an effective man ? — A man 
 wlio has attended a certain number of drills and is 
 returned as an effc'ctive in the ordinary returns. 
 
 4165. You mean in the parliamentary sense of that 
 term ? — In the War Office sense, because a man is 
 required to attend a certain number of drills, and 
 unless he does so attend he is not returned as an 
 effective man to the inspecting officer when he inspects 
 the corps or to the Government. 
 
 4166. He is not necessarily efficient? — No, but a 
 man who attends eight drills every four months, 
 generally attends a good many more, as a rule. I 
 should say that in my corps, and I merely speak 
 of that, they are efficient, because all the effective 
 men are reported to be efficient by the inspecting 
 officer. Of course some are not so good as otiiers, 
 still they were reported to be efficient, and I l)elieve 
 they were all of them quite efficient. 
 
 4167. Have you any other suggestion to offer to 
 the Commission ? — I cannot suggest the equivalent, 
 but I think it would l>e desirable to give to the 
 volunteers something like a f/nid pro quo. They 
 give their services and their time, but they virtually 
 receive nothing for it beyond the feeling of satisfac- 
 tion that th('y have discharged their duty. At the 
 same time, there is another feeling which exists, 
 which is, that many men in the same position do not 
 join the volunteers, and do not equip their men, and 
 allow them to join, and that leads to a feeling of dis- 
 satisfaction, amongst those who do. They say, "I give 
 " my men's time, or my own. I equip myself and my 
 " men, but Mr. Somebody, who lives near me, and 
 
 Z 4 
 
 C ■a/)!. P. S. 
 
 Ililin/irrskm, 
 
 MP.
 
 170 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Capt. P. S. 
 
 Humberston, 
 
 M.P. 
 
 4 July 1862. 
 
 " is equally woU able, does not tlo either." Therefore 
 I think that if anything like an equivalent could be 
 given it would tend very much to strengthen the 
 volunteer movement. II' it were determined by 
 Government to ballot for the militia, I think you 
 would then at once have an equivalent in an exem})- 
 tion ; but as to whether the Government, should or 
 should not enforce the ballot, I give no opinion. I 
 think also that facilities should be given for shooting 
 by allowing amnuinition, and providing ritlc ranges ; 
 the shooting is a great inducement to men to enrol 
 themselves in a corps where the ranges are within 
 reach, and if facilities for obtaining ranges were given 
 it would do good, for there is great difSculty in ob- 
 taining them ; we have a short range of 200 yards 
 about four miles from Chester ; there happens to be 
 a railway near, and we can get to it without much 
 difficulty, but it takes time and costs money ; we have 
 also another range of about 600 yards, which we 
 have obtained very much by personal favour, and for 
 which we pay a rent of 251. a year, that is two miles 
 and three-quarters from Chester, and it takes up a good 
 deal of time to go there and return, but we cannot 
 get another, for the roads interfere nearer to Chester ; 
 a public road interferes at a place where we might 
 have an ample range, but we cannot stop the road ; 
 I think that it might be protected by placing men 
 upon the road. 
 
 4168. (Col. 3Iac3Iurdo.) Is that a point which you 
 wish to press upon the Commission, that power should 
 be given to the volunteers to stop a road? — I think 
 that some power should be given to stop roads which 
 are not much used whilst the firing is going on ; in 
 this case the road is very little used, it is a town- 
 ship road, and I think that if a man was placed upon 
 the road, there would be no difficulty or danger in 
 stopping it. There is another thing that I should 
 mention ; it is' very desirable to give facilities for 
 
 officers to become acquainted with their drill by 
 either being attached to some regular corps, or being 
 allowed to drill with them ; there is a depot ar. 
 Preston, I believe, and other places, and if officers 
 had the power of going there without much difficulty, 
 or of drilling with the regular troops if quartered 
 near, I think they would avail themselves of it ; and 
 the men as well as the officers would have an oppor- 
 tunity of becoming better acquainted with their duties. 
 
 4169. (Chairman.) Would you insist upon it before 
 an officer received his commission, that he should 
 have been attached to some regular regiment ? — I 
 think that that would create great difficulty in ob- 
 taining officers. 
 
 4170. (3Injor-Gen. Eyrc.^ You have spoken of the 
 volunteers receiving a <juid pro quo, would they in 
 that case be volunteers ? — I think so ; tliey are exempt 
 now from the militia, aud you would then be giviug 
 them an effectual exemption ; now it is nominal only, 
 as every one is exempt ; there is no ballot ; but I 
 think you would be giving them a fair (juid pro quo, 
 and the}' would still be volunteers. 1 think it would 
 be gratifying to the volunteers if some privilege could 
 bo conferred upon them. 
 
 4171. (Chairman.) Have you any other recom- 
 mendation to make ? — ■ Yes ; as to the adjutants. 
 It is very desirable to have a man of experience as 
 an adjutant— I mean a man of some standing in the 
 army. I think the adjutants should have the same 
 pay aud allowances as adjutants of militia, the men 
 would look up to them. Senior captains who had seen 
 service, or a major, or lieutenant-colonel, might, I 
 think, be very glad to take such an apiiointment, as 
 it would keep them at home. 
 
 4172. (Col. MacMurdo.) One of your adjutants 
 in Cheshire is an officer who commanded the 25th 
 Borderers ? — Y'es, he is adjutant of the battalion to 
 which I belong, and a very valuable officer he is. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Lieut.-CoL 
 E. Maberhj. 
 
 Lieut.-Colonel Evan Mabeelt examined. 
 
 4173. (Chairman.') Y''ou are an officer in the Eoyal 
 Artillery ? — Yes. 
 
 4174. Have you inspected a great many of the 
 artillery volunteer corps on the south coast ? — Y^es, 
 during the last year. 
 
 4175. Will you be good enough to state in what 
 condition you found tliem ? — In every variety of 
 condition ; it would be scarcely possible to describe 
 the whole of the artillerj' volunteer service in Devon 
 and Cornwall in one word, except l)y sayuig that 
 their condition is very creditable to the individuals 
 composing the corps. As far as regards their effi- 
 ciency as artillery they are in every stage of efficiency. 
 
 4176. Upon the whole were they in a satisfactory 
 condition ? — They are very satisfactory corps indeed ; 
 but there are cases of doubtful use of ]inblic money. 
 
 4177. The public monej' which they receive now, 
 I suppose, is in the shape of an allowance of ammu- 
 nition ? — In plant, in ordnance, carriages, and bat- 
 teries, ammunition, instruction, and arms. 
 
 4178. When you find corps that, in your opinion, 
 are wasting the public money you report that, I pre- 
 sume, to the authorities ? — I should hardly use so 
 strong a term as that in a public report ; but speaking 
 truthfully before a Commission like this I have no 
 retreat. 
 
 4179. (Sir A. Campbell.) You would report such 
 a corps as inefficient ? — I should report their drills in 
 a backward state, and it is for those who receive the 
 report to judge of the meaning of it ; each corps has 
 been reported upon separately. 
 
 4180. (Col. 3IacMurdo.) Did you report any of 
 the corps that you inspected last year as inefficient ? 
 — I liave not any copies of my reports with me ; but 
 there must have been reports tending that way. Some 
 corps, I think, offered no drill of a certain kind, and in 
 that respect, therefore, they must be inefficient. 
 
 4181. Were the other corps that you inspected 
 
 efficient ? — As efficient as they could possibly be ; 
 they had made as good use of the means entrusted to 
 them by the Government as it was possible they could 
 have done. 
 
 4182. (Viscount Hardingc.) Have all the corps in 
 your district facilities for gmi-drill and practice ? — I 
 think they all ha^•e now ; some scarcely had at the 
 time of my inspection, and, so far, they necessarily 
 must have been inefficient. 
 
 4183. What proportion of the corps in your district 
 have got ranges and facilities for gun-practice with 
 shot and shell? — I believe all now have facilities 
 that are on the sea-bord. I have not inspected them 
 this year, another officer has been appointed to per- 
 form that duty. 
 
 4184. Have the companies which are inland no 
 facilities for practice? — They go down to the sea-shore 
 and practice there, but they are, of course, at a disad- 
 vantage. 
 
 4185. What distance have many of those corps to 
 travel in order to do so? — From Exeter they would 
 travel to Exmouth ; the corps on the upper plateau of 
 Cornwall would come down to Marazion or to Pen- 
 zance. 
 
 4186. Wliicli is the longest distance that a corps 
 would have to travel to get to the nearest range ? — 
 12 or 15 miles. 
 
 4187. Can they get to those batteries by railw.iys 
 principally ? — From Exeter to Exmouth they would 
 go by railway, and from the Lands' End and Saint 
 Buryan, and thereabouts, to Marazion, they would 
 not. 
 
 4188. What facilities have the inland corps for gun 
 practice ; have they guns mounted on their parades ? 
 — Yes ; scattered about. They have guns at different 
 places, but they collect the men there with extreme 
 difficulty. 
 
 4189. Were the platforms erected by themselves ?
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE COXDrriOX OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN'. 
 
 L// 
 
 — Tlu-y may have been erected by themselves ; the 
 Govci'iiment have made them an allowance for them. 
 I believe that every other corps now, cxcejit Exi'tcr 
 and Siiint Buryan, has a range ; they fire ai. rocks at 
 sea, or targets. 
 
 4190. Every company has a certain nmnher of guns 
 mounted at headquarters ? — I think they have. 
 
 4191. {Col. MacMicrdo.) Some of llie liatteries 
 have 18-pounder iron guns, mounted on lield car- 
 riages, have they not ? — Yes. 
 
 4192. And they horse them occasionally, do they 
 not ? — They do. 
 
 4193. Do3rou think that those batteries, so cquip|ied, 
 are likely to be more etficient than the batteries wliioh 
 are supplied only with garrison guns ? — Certainly ; 
 if you mean by efficient, useful to the country. 
 
 4194. On account of their being able to move the 
 guns ? — Yes ; a battery having two garrison guns is 
 nailed to the spot ; but a battery having moveable 
 ordnance is available for service elsewhere. 
 
 4195. {Sir A. Campbell.) To what do you attri- 
 bute the difiereuce in the efficiency of the various 
 corps? — The great difficulties which the members have 
 to contend with ; the mere fact of distance is one. 
 
 4196. Can you offer any suggestions to the Com- 
 mission by whicli the worst corps might be brought to a 
 higher state of efficiency? — Not categorically, in answer 
 to a question ; on the spot one might recommend some- 
 thing ; it is perhaps a matter of temper in the people 
 that command them, and it is a want of zeal, perhaps, 
 in those who are commanded ; it is a matter of dis- 
 tance ; the difficulties have been very great ; it is a 
 matter of the nature of their employment ; when they 
 happen to be sea-going people, they are liable to be 
 away, and when they are fishermen they labour under 
 very great difficulties in some stations. Perhaps there 
 has been too much zeal at starting, and they have 
 established a corps where they need not have been 
 established, and their zeal has gone beyond their 
 means of keeping them up. 
 
 4197. In those cases I presume you would recom- 
 mend that the corps should be allowed to drop ? — It 
 requires more knowledge of the circumstances than I 
 have to justify me in making such a recommendation. 
 When inspecting a corps you can only speak of it 
 as you find it, that it is inefficient ; and you say that 
 in the mildest words that you can, for great allow- 
 ances are to be made ; perhaps the greatest allowances 
 for the most inefficient corps. The best security 
 for progress and efficiency appears to me to bo the 
 appointment of active and good officers as adjutants 
 of brigades. It would be better to lend an officer 
 from the regular service than to let an artillery 
 brigade of volunteers work on without one. Some 
 amount of military knowledge is almost essential 
 to direct the zeal of volunteers profitably. If the 
 commanding officer, or anyone else in the corps, can 
 supply time and experience, that will do, if not the 
 drill instructors alone are not a sufficient guarantee 
 of system and order. There are cases of great effi- 
 ciency where no officer has assisted, but they are 
 rare. 
 
 4198. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Do you not ascertain 
 the causes of the inefficiency ? — It is not by the regu- 
 lations within the province of the inspector, he 
 does so as far as he can. The business of the in- 
 spector is first to take a note of the number of men 
 actually present ; then of their physical stamina ; 
 then of the condition of the arms and accoutre- 
 ments which the Government have given to them ; 
 then of the state in which their exercises and drills 
 are, and so forth, and then to pronounce on the whole ; 
 and when all breaks down you can only say that 
 there are corps which are inefficient. 
 
 4199. But we are rather at a loss to know the 
 cause of their inefficiency, whether it is physical 
 difficulties that they have to contend with, or apathy, 
 or neglect on the part of the individuals concerned ? 
 — It is impossible to describe it in one word. Some- 
 
 times it may bo want of lact in the officer connnand- TJcut.-Cvl 
 ing ; sometimes it nniy be disliinoc. ■/-• Mabohj. 
 
 4200. ( I'iscoiiiit J/ar(/i/ir/c.) In case of an in- 
 
 vasion, what ]iroportion of the corps in your district ' Ku- 
 
 do you think wouhl be fit to go into garrison and fire 
 
 witli shot and sbeli ; is it two-thirds, or a half, or 
 whal proportion ? — I think you might say that a half 
 would cause the (iueen's service no embarrassment 
 whatsoever if incorpoi-aleil with them (o-morrow ; 
 liut I would rather say a third ; personally I .should 
 not hesitate to take over one half. 
 
 4201. {Major Ilarcourt.) Does that refer to your 
 experience this year on the coast ? — No; I have had 
 none this year. 
 
 4202. Then it refers only to your inspection of last 
 year ? — Y''es. 
 
 4203. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) You have stated that 
 they would cause no embarrassment to the Qui'en's 
 service ; but would they be of any actual use ? — Cer- 
 tainly, in defence. 
 
 4204. {Col. MacMitrrlo.) With reference to that 
 part of your evidence, in which yon say that some 
 of the corps are wasting the pulilic money, I think 
 it is very important that I should read to you some 
 short extracts from your reports : — " There is no 
 " ammunition or charge, nor have the volunteers 
 " fired for want of a range and of time to do so. 
 " The corps is remarkable for its fine appearance, 
 " and steady movement upon parade," " The artillery 
 " enthusiasm of the district is great ; the members in 
 " some instances come from six to eight miles to the 
 " drills, after the days' work in mines. One section 
 " are miners, another .are agriculturists, but all are 
 '• of a superior class in intelligence and social 
 " standing to the majority of the volunteers in the 
 " ranks as privates elsewhere. Hence the peculi.ar 
 " necessity of influence .and discretion in their 
 " command, which the captain seems to exercise so 
 " well. The arms have been only lately supplied in 
 " part. There are still 10 stands wanting. A plat- 
 " form on the coast for gun practice is very de- 
 " sir.able. I recommend the grant of the regulated 
 " allowance to the volunteers themselves to do the 
 " work, and to erect a wooden store and magazine in 
 " the neighbourhood, by which their labour and 
 " difficulties will be greatly lessened." "The members 
 " who attended the inspection were credit.able in 
 " appearance, young men in the prime of life, 
 " well appointed, .and fairly drilled. Everything 
 " indicates a start made in a right direction, with 
 " no fault to be found, and nothing wanting but 
 " perseverance on the part of members in attend- 
 " ance at drill." " This corps is in a very promising 
 " and creditable state, having made great progress 
 " during five months, existence. I recommend that the 
 " volunteers be .allowed to put down their own 
 " pr.actice platform, and conduct their gun practice 
 " forthwith. They are quite fit to fire." " The 
 " condition of this corps is most creditable to the 
 " officers commanding and all concerned. The mem- 
 " bers have no service ammunition or charge. This 
 " is the first year of their formation. The gun 
 " practice was witnessed by me on a previous oc- 
 " casion, and was extremely good." " This is a very 
 " promising corps, and in very good hands. The men 
 " all fired in their turn, at a target 1,200 yards off, 
 " steadily and well. The instruction of thi' fom' 
 " corps of this brigade is essentially well conducted, 
 " and reflects great honour upon the officers and men 
 " concerned." " The corps is well trained to gun 
 " drill, and much interested therein, and is said to 1)C 
 " capable of augmentation." "The drill to which 
 " most notice seems to have been given is the gun 
 " drill. This exercise is creditable." "This corps is 
 " in the highest order, and. together with the other 
 " corps would cause no confusion if drafted into the 
 " ranks of the royal artillery to-morrow." " The in- 
 " struction of this corps is good as far as it goes, and 
 " seems to be progressing." " The corps reported 
 " upon is in very superior order to any corps se§9 
 
 Aa
 
 178 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Lieut.-Col " hitherto ; except the dockyard corps. They have 
 E. Maherly. a carried their training so far as to pass inspection as 
 ± T TTsRo " perfectly as regular troops would do." " The corps 
 \2_L_ " is in very creditable order, reilecting honour upon 
 " all concerned. Good use has been made of the m- 
 " struction and means of training furnished by Govern- 
 " ment. The men only just stop short of fitness to 
 " be incorporated with regular artillery." "This corps 
 " is in a most creditable and efficient state, due, with- 
 " out doubt, to the zeal and intelligence of the captain, 
 " and to the spirit and perseverance of the officers 
 " and men. The battery is quite fit to occupy the 
 " place of a battery of regular artillery whenever 
 " called upon to do so. As far as an inspection 
 " such as this goes, the corps may be reported tho- 
 " roughly effective aud disciplined." " This corps is 
 " in very good hands. The officers are very compe- 
 « tent and active, the men are young and are very 
 " zealous, and attend drill well. The carbine exercise 
 " has been allowed to stand over to perfect the gun 
 " drill during the summer. The latter has been well 
 « learnt, but is a little slurred over for speed sake ; 
 " nevertheless the corps deserve great credit." " This 
 " corps has made creditable and fair progress." "The 
 " men are quick and smart at gun exercise." " The 
 « training has been good and systematic, the corps 
 « marches and performs the carbine exercises better 
 " than most corps, and is progressing with the gun 
 " drill, nearly mastered satisfactorily." " This corps 
 " appears to be in a very hearty and flourishing state 
 « and in good hands. The gun drill is quite mastered 
 " and well performed." " this corps is in fine order 
 " and in excellent hands ; the drills have all been 
 " well learnt, and the corps is very little, if at all, 
 " short of being perfect." " This corps is composed 
 " of very fine men, averaging about 26 years in age, 
 " 5 feet 7 inches in height, and weighing probably 
 " nearly 12 stone per man. The corps has derived 
 " the greatest benefit from the residence of the major 
 " in the neighbourhood, by whom the battery was 
 " raised. It is now in excellent hands and in full 
 " vigour. The chief attention has been given to the 
 " gun exercise." "The battery paraded with two 
 " 18-pounder guns, horsed by means of farm horses 
 " provided by the officers and farmers adjoining, and 
 " with officers and seijeants mounted, forming a 
 " very effective division of a battery of position; 
 " the remaining men were formed on foot under 
 " arms. The trouble and expense incurred in bring- 
 " ing this corps to its present state reflects the highest 
 " credit." I must say that I am a little surprised 
 that you should say that any of those corps are 
 wasting the public money after the receipt of your 
 reports ? — I scarcely know how 1 can answer you with- 
 out particularizing, and I do not wish to do an in- 
 vidious thing ; 1 should gladly be excused from doing 
 so ; I can only say that I have no copies of my re- 
 ports, and if I have reported incorrectly in the case 
 that is in my mind, then I have done so ; but I hold 
 in my hand my own notes made upon the spot. The 
 reports are made from the notes, and must and do 
 agree with them. I can read the notes, if permitted, 
 without naming corps. 
 
 4205. {Lord Overstone.) I presume your intention 
 in speaking of a waste of the public money was to 
 express an opinion that, speaking generally, the ar 
 
 tillery volunteers under your inspection are in a 
 tolerably satisfactory condition, but that there are 
 some exceptions to that statement ? — Certainly. 
 
 4206. And you feel some delicacy in stating spe- 
 cifically what those exceptions are, as they would 
 then appear upon the minutes of evidence ? — Yes, for 
 the sake of encouraging the volunteer force generally, 
 one has caught at everything that was susceptible of 
 praise. 
 
 4207. lyCol. MacMurdo.) There arc only two cases 
 in which your reports are different from those which 
 I have already read, which are these : " This corps 
 " has been unfortunate, and is behind all those hitherto 
 " inspected in efficiency ; the reason alleged for back- 
 " wardness is want of regular attendance amongst the 
 " members at drill. The appearance of the men upon 
 " parade is satisfactory, and the state of their arms 
 " is creditable. The district is agricultural, and 
 " the distances which are travelled by the members 
 " to the evening drills, after their day's work, are 
 " often great. It is in contemplation to bring a gun 
 " into the village under cover, and exercise the men 
 " there in winter." The next is : " The arms are not 
 " in good order ; the practice adopted of allowing a 
 " remuneration to the drill instructor to keep them 
 " clean has not answered here. There may be valid 
 " objections to the entrusting of arms to volunteers' 
 " private custody, but in the interest of the arms 
 " themselves it seems to me desirable to do so, as 
 " well as to teach the art of keeping arms in order to 
 " every man reputed to be a soldier, as the first duty 
 " required from him. But in any way some more fre- 
 " quent purview or other precaution is needed for the 
 " protection of the arms here ?" — I thought that a 
 reference to my official reports would show that there 
 were two cases in which I had reported unsatis- 
 factorily. 
 
 4208. Is it your opinion, with reference to the effi- 
 ciency of the volunteer artillery, supposing it pro- 
 gresses favourably, that in the event of war they 
 would be good troops for the purpose of manning the 
 fortifications of the country ? 
 
 4209. ( Viscount Hardinge.') With a certain pro- 
 portion of trained gunners with them ? — With or 
 without, taking only the best corps. There are many 
 corps of which too much cannot be said in praise. 
 
 4210. {Lord Overstone.) Do you look upon the 
 artillery volunteers as a force likely to be of consider- 
 able value acting as a supplement to the regular 
 troops ? — Yes ; unquestionably. 
 
 4211. {Viscount Hardinge.) Do you mean to say 
 that you would trust the forts, in the event of an 
 invasion to be garrisoned by the volunteer artillery, 
 and to be commanded by their own officers and non- 
 commissioned officers, without any portion of trained 
 men with them ? — Yes ; there are corps fit to be thus 
 trusted in a case of emergency ; there might be a 
 danger of accidents to themselves from want of the 
 habit of caution, which they can only acquire by usage. 
 
 4212. {Chairman.) In all other respects you would 
 trust them ? — Yes ; as far as efficient service of their 
 guns goes, in manipulation, and mechanical efficiency, 
 I do not think it is possible to give them too high 
 credit. I speak of the positive condition of those corps 
 at my inspection of last year. 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 J. Bower, 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Lieut.-Colonel John Bower examined. 
 
 4213. {Chairman.) You command the 1st Hamp- 
 shire Light Horse Volunteer Corps ? — Yes. 
 
 4214. Of how many men does your corps consist ? 
 
 —44- 
 
 4215. I believe all the men ride their own horses i 
 
 ^Yes, with the exception of the serjeant instructor 
 
 and the trumpeter, they do not ride their own horses ; 
 the two farriers do not ride their own horses, but 
 they ride their masters' horses ; they are gentlemen's 
 servants. 
 
 4216. Will there be any difficulty in providing 
 your corps with clothing when it requires renewal ? 
 
 I do not think there will be any difficulty in that 
 
 respect, for they are all persons capable of clothing 
 themselves ; the paid members of the corps are 
 clothed from the funds of the corps, that is the 
 Serjeant instructor and the trumpeter. 
 
 4217. Should you require any assistance whatever 
 from the Government ? — We are not above accepting 
 assistance fVom the Government if they like to give
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT RRITAIN. 
 
 179 
 
 it to US ; of course our existence somewhat depends 
 upon our income, and oui" income prospectively will 
 certainly not meet our expenses ; they can only be 
 met by making appeals from time to time to the 
 community around us, and we must help ourselves ; 
 but if the Government are disposed to assist us they 
 could do it in this way : they give us a serjeant 
 instructor who is paid for by the Government, but 
 a Serjeant instructor without a horse is only half a 
 Serjeant instructor ; he cannot move about without a 
 horse; and if the Government would find us forage 
 for the Serjeant instructor's horse it would be a reliel 
 to our funds ; we bought the horse out of our own 
 funds, but that is a tiling done, and we hope it will 
 last some time, but the current expenses of lieeping 
 a horse are a considerable drain upon our funds. I 
 do not know that there is anything else that we could 
 ask the Government for. 
 
 4218. Is your fund raised by private subscriptions 
 from every member of the corps ? — By private sub- 
 scriptions from the community around ; the effective 
 members give a donation, at least most of them do ; 
 about half of us are gentlemen, who can afTord to give 
 a donation to the fund which formed the capital upon 
 which we started, and most of which is exhausted 
 now ; besides that, we have an annual subscription, 
 which, by the regulations sanctioned by the Govern- 
 ment, is 10s. or 10s. 6d.; that is the minimum, but by 
 a bye-law of our own, we do not limit the annual sub- 
 scription to 10s. 6i/., but it suits some of our members 
 to content themselves with giving that support to us, 
 whilst others who can afford it give a guinea, and this 
 keeps us going a little ; but before another year is out 
 ■we shall have to make a special appeal to our hono- 
 rary members. 
 
 4219. Have you many honorary members ? — I think 
 about 50. 
 
 4220. They raised the subscriptions originally, I 
 presume, ■which formed the fund of the corps ? — The 
 honorary members and the effectives jointly raised a 
 fund of some 400/. or 500/., which we have been 
 living upon as our capital, and, in fact, at the present 
 time. Our original expenses were disposed of in the 
 first year, that is to say, our targets, and the expense 
 of a range, and all that sort of thing came out of our 
 capital, but they are disposed of, and there is an end 
 of them ; they are not likely to be repeated. 
 
 4221. Were the horse appointments supplied by 
 yourselves ? — Yes, but the horse appointments did 
 not come to very much, because we use the common 
 hunting saddle and bridle, and by a very little alte- 
 ration it is rendered serviceable for our purposes. 
 
 4222. Do you carry the short P^ufield rifle ? — Yes, 
 at the present time we do, and if we could by any 
 means get a lighter weapon from the Government, 
 but at the same time as efficient, we should be very 
 thankful for it. A breech-loader is what we ought 
 to have, and for this reason : we never ride with our 
 arms loaded, and consequently it takes a little time, 
 and of course any military man will know that a very 
 rapid fire is not very desirable, as it encourages 
 people to waste the ammunition ; hut with intelligent 
 people like ours, they can learn to reserve their fire, 
 and you can trust them better than you can the 
 common soldier, because they see the object of taking 
 care of their ammunition ; and therefore to enable us 
 in our rapid mode of working, to deliver our fire a 
 little more promptly, a breech loader would be a 
 very valuable weapon, if we could get a thing to suit 
 us. I asked the Government whether they would 
 assist us, as we were then disposed to provide our- 
 selves ■with Westley Richard's breech-loading carbine 
 — we were willing to buy them for those who cannot 
 do it for themselves. I put the question officially to 
 the Government, whether, in that event, they could 
 supply us with ammunition, because we could not de- 
 pend upon any private source for that ; and the reply 
 ■was, that they could not — therefore we abandoned 
 it. Since then, the Government having given arms 
 throughout the volunteer force, we only hope, if at 
 
 any time they have a breech-loading rifle to suit us, 
 we may have it. It is not desirable, according to our 
 system of carrying the rifle in our bucket, to have a 
 very short weapon, thei'C is no advantage in it ; the 
 short Enfield rifle answers our puri)()se perfectly well 
 in that way ; we cany it in what we call a nomaqua 
 bucket ; it is so called after a Catfre tribe, at the 
 Cape of Good Hope. 
 
 4223. {Major-Gen. Ei/re.) The Cape mounted 
 rifles use it, do they not ? — I believe Colonel Sutton 
 tried it, it has been persevered with ; by a little per- 
 .severance, any one who takes the trouble will succeed 
 with it. Carrying the rifle in that way, there is 
 nothing gained by having a short liarrel ; on the con- 
 trary, it is an objection. 
 
 4224. You cannot offer any suggestion that any 
 assistance should be given to a corps of mounted rifles 
 like your own beyond what you have mentioned, 
 namely, forage allowance for a horse ? — That would 
 be acceptable ; but there is another thing that we 
 ought to have. We are a peculiar corps ; I do not 
 believe that there is anything of the same sort on the 
 earth ; it is quite an experimental thing, and it has 
 been worked out by the farmers and ])eoide of our 
 description ; and I think at the same time it answers 
 very well ; but we want a proper designation ; we 
 are not mounted riflemen, because we are cavalry ; 
 we are not light horse, we are a kind of irregular 
 cavalry ; and I think that if some other designation 
 were applied to us, such as volunteer dragoons, it 
 would be better. 
 
 4225. (Lord Overstone.) In what respect do you 
 call yourselves a peculiar corps ? — Because we carry 
 the rifle. My object is this : we are called cavalry, 
 and I do not think we are quite cavalry, but we are 
 given the cavalry allowance of ammunition, and the 
 cavalry allowance of ammunition for a corps of the 
 description that I command is not sufficient. 
 
 4226. {Chairman.) You do not adopt cavalry drill 
 when skirmishing, do you ? — No, because we are rifle- 
 men ; our weapon is the rifle, the cavalry weapon is 
 the sword; and our system of drill is not for mounted 
 riflemen, because mounted riflemen work on foot ; we 
 do not work on foot, beyond this, that we dismount 
 to fire ; but we do all our skirmishing on horseback. 
 
 4227. {Major- Gen. Eyre.) So far as your wants 
 are concerned, they appear to amount to this, that 
 you would take all you can get ; but you are not 
 really in want of anything ? — We are not in absolute 
 want of anything ; but if we do not get some kind of 
 assistance, I cannot answer for the corps going on ; 
 it is a very disagreeable thing to have to go round to 
 the community and say, we want a little help ; our 
 neighbours tire of that sort of thing. If our annual 
 expenditure could be relieved a little, it would be a 
 great help to us ; and the other thing is the ammuni- 
 tion ; what we want is a mounted rifle allowance of 
 ammunition; we are expected to go through a mounted 
 rifle course of military practice, and we arc allowed 
 cavalry ammunition for that purpose. I think it 
 simply wants to be explained, and then it would be 
 set right ; it is a matter of expense, for if we do not 
 get the ammunition that I ask for we must buy it ; 
 we must go through our course of instruction and 
 practice at our own expense, or else we shall not fulfil 
 the duties that we undertake. 
 
 4228. {Col. MacMurdo.) Have you expended 
 the last year's supply of ammunition ? — We are eroing 
 on with our course now ; it is almost finished. I 
 have applied for the quantity that is allowed by 
 purchase, which will enable us to go on with our 
 practice ; but it gives us no opportunity whatever of 
 practising ourselves. 
 
 4229. Have you got the current year's gratuitous 
 supply ? — Yes ; that is 50' rounds, and if you do not 
 give the men something to practice with besides their 
 annual course, they have no opportunity of nicndino- 
 their shooting. The people at Hythe say you learn 
 position drill, and you come to the target ready made 
 
 A a 2 
 
 I.ieul.-CoL 
 J. Bower. 
 
 4 July 186a>
 
 180 
 
 MtNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Vmt.-Col 
 J . Botrcr, 
 
 4 July 1862. 
 
 marksmen ; but that is all nonsense. You have to 
 learn the power of your rifle, and a thousand things 
 that you can only learn by burning powder. 
 
 4230. {Chairman.) You think that you ought to 
 have a much lars;er allowance of ammunition ? — I 
 
 think that we ought to be put on the same footing as 
 mounted riflemen. 
 
 4231. With a new designation you think j'ou should 
 have an increased allowance of ammunition annually, 
 and also forage for a horse ? — Yes. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Adjourned to Tuesday next at half-past 12 o'clock. 
 
 Tuesday, 8th July 1862. 
 
 PRESENT ; 
 
 Viscount EVERSLET. 
 Lord OVERSTONE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. 
 Major-General Eyre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 Major Harcourt. 
 
 A. Wetherall. 
 
 Majo! 
 L. L. DiUwi/n, 
 
 M.r. 
 
 8 July 1862. 
 
 Viscount EVEESLEY in the Chair. 
 Major Lewis Llewellyn Dillwtn, M.P., examined. 
 
 4232. (Chairman.) I believe you command the 3rd 
 Glamorganshire Eifle Volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 4233. Of how many companies does that coi-ps con- 
 sist ? — Four companies. 
 
 4234. How many men ? — I have sent in a return; 
 I forget the exact number. 
 
 4235. You are acquainted with the rifle movement 
 in Wales ? — Yes ; I was one of the first who was 
 called upon, and I believe mine was the first corps 
 that mustered in Wales. 
 
 4236. If you have any suggestions to ofTer to the 
 Commission upon this question, we shall be glad to 
 hear them ? — I think that some assistance should be 
 afforded. 
 
 4237. Do you think that assistance is absolutely 
 necessai-y ? — Yes; I think it is absolutely necessary, 
 both in respect to clothing for the privates and assis- 
 tance towards the regimental expenses in some way. 
 I would suggest that for the privates should be by 
 giving them clothing. I do not think that giving 
 the cloth at Government prices would be any as- 
 sistance whatever to them, and for this reason, 
 that the cloth at Government prices which I have 
 seen will not wear anything like so well as the 
 cloths that we furnished to our own men. The 
 cloth that I have used is a brown cloth, and it 
 has worn so well that although I have had the men 
 out very constantly for a considerable time, indeed, 
 since the first movement took place, and they have 
 been out in all sorts of weather, — and it has been very 
 bad weather since the movement was first instituted, 
 
 you cannot now tell the new recruits from the men 
 
 who have worn their uniforms from the first. Thus 
 with regard to my own uniform, I have made it a 
 point of not changing it, and when I am out the 
 men cannot tell whether it is a new one or an old 
 one. I chose it for this reason, that the men should 
 not feel ashamed to come out to drill when the clothes 
 begin to look shabby as compared with the c'r.thiug 
 of the new recruits, and that has worked very well. 
 I am quite sure that it is better to pay double the 
 price, or even more than that, rather than get the 
 grey cloths, which begin to look shabby iu no time, 
 and if they are to buy them at all, there would be 
 very little saving by having the Government cloth a 
 Government prices. I do not think it would be any 
 great privilege to give them that cloth at the Govern- 
 ment price. I am in favour of giving them clothing, 
 and of one colour, red, if it were thought advisable. 
 I would suggest that if it is to be given it need not 
 be made up. I feel sure that the privates require 
 some assistance. My corps principally consists of 
 mechanics and shopkeepers and respectable people, 
 but who can very ill afford to give more than their 
 time for the movement, and meet certain other ex- 
 penses to which they are liable. I do not think that 
 
 they can afford to give very much more ; and I do 
 not think they ought to be asked to give any more. 
 
 4238. In what way do you think they ought to be 
 assisted. Do you mean that their travelling expenses 
 should be paid ? — No ; I would give them the cloth 
 for the uniform. I think that would be sufficient. 
 I think that the Government ought also to relieve the 
 officers from the great expenses which they are now 
 put to. 
 
 4239. {Lord Overstone.) Do you mean tliat the 
 cloth should be given to them, or that the uniform 
 already made up should be given to them ? — I think 
 that if you gave them the cloth for the coats and 
 trousers it would be sufficient. I think I could 
 manage with that in my own corps. Of course I 
 assume that the rifles are to be continued. I certainly 
 think that yon ought to relieve the officers from the re- 
 gimentjil expenses which fall now so very heavily upon 
 them. I do not see upon what principle we are called 
 upon to bear them. I do not want to relieve the 
 commanding officers of all expenses, but I think they 
 ought not to be put to such very heavy expenses as 
 they are now ; for instance, for ranges, armouries, the 
 rent of ranges, and the rent of armouries, buglers, 
 and for cleaning the arms. 
 
 4240. When you use the word " armouries," have 
 3-ou any persons to take care of the arms ? — Yes, and 
 the expenses are something very considerable, as in 
 my own case. I bear the greater portion of them 
 with the other officers, but I think that you ought to 
 enable the other officers to be relieved of all expenses. 
 I hardly like to ask my officers, and I think that they 
 ought not to bear the proportion that they have to 
 bear, and the fact of there being any regimental 
 expense connected with the commission to some 
 extent might prevent me from selecting some of the 
 best men from the corps for officers. I know many 
 men who would be most popular, and who arc some 
 of the most efficient in the corps, but who would not 
 feel justified in undertaking an undefined expense, 
 p.articularly as it was in the starting of the corps in 
 the early days of the movement. It is somewliat 
 modified now, but there are still many unsettled 
 accounts and expenses. Eelieving officers from these 
 expenses would have this effi^ct, I think, that you 
 would be able, in the first place, to get the best men 
 for officers if you relieved all exce]it the commanding 
 officers from them ; and if you could relieve the com- 
 manding officers of some part of the expenses which 
 they are at present liable to, I think it would further 
 assist the movement very much, because they would 
 then feel themselves enabled to assist their corps by 
 giving prizes, and iu many other ways which would 
 give other inducements to the volunteer force to 
 muster better, than they are now able to give. 
 The necessary expenses are so heavy that they are
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 181 
 
 often obliged to economize, and to be stingy in many 
 things when they would not like to be so. If you 
 could relieve them from the heavy burden which they 
 have now to bear in the shape of expenses, I think 
 I hat they would readily give fetes and give prizes, 
 and oflcr little inducements which I think are 
 of great importance in maintaining the volunteer 
 movement. Of course all these things would requii'c 
 a larger amount than is required at j)resent, and 
 when we came to ask parliament for it we should pro- 
 bably be met with the reply on tlio jjart of some of 
 the economists who do not like the volunteers 
 (altliough I do not think that there are many of them): 
 It is very well to ask for this amount, but if the volun- 
 teer force has arrived at this great strength of 
 170,000 without any assistance, or with only limited 
 assistance, subject to all the disadvantages and ex- 
 penses and burdens which are now thrown upon them 
 in the present case, what would it I)e when assistance 
 is given ? You are asking parliament for an unde- 
 fined and not a fixed quantity ; you do not know what 
 you are asking. This is the argument which would 
 probably be used, and with some truth, as with the 
 increase that we are noAV asking for you will find, I 
 think, that the volunteer force will go up to 250,000 
 instead of 170,000. I would therefore suggest, as the 
 first thing to be done, to limit the force. I would 
 ascertain, as well as I could, what the normal strength 
 of the volunteers ought to be, and then would come 
 whatever assistance the Government might think 
 proper to give them. I do not think that parliament 
 would very much grudge it in respect of a fixed 
 quantity ; at least that is my own notion about it. I 
 think that if you so limited the force you would in- 
 crease its efficiency very much. I do not suppose 
 that 170,000 is the normal strength at which you 
 wish to keep it up ; and I will suppose that we. re- 
 duced it to 120,000, and then you would get rid of 
 all the corps that are inefticient. and which have 
 neither eftieient officers nor regular drill, nor any- 
 thing else ; .and then, instead of constantly seeking to 
 increase the force, you would say, no, you are to 
 stand where you are, or you are to be reduced from 
 four companies of 90 men each to four companies of 
 80 men each, or as the case may be. I .am assuming 
 that you would give all the advantages and power 
 to commanding officers to assist their corps more 
 th.an they do now, and that you would relieve the 
 other officers from the expenses which they now 
 bear ; and if in addition to that the men had their 
 clothing provided for them I believe you would 
 find that there would be a great rush into the 
 volunteers, and you would turn the tables upon 
 the volunteers, if I may use that expression. At the 
 present time you are asking men to come in, and it is 
 rather a sort of favour on their- part to join volunteer 
 corps, but by giving these privileges and inducements 
 I think you would turn the tables upon them, and you 
 would then make it a favour to let them become volun- 
 teers. The commanding officers would then be able, I 
 think, to insist upon more regular attendance at drill 
 than they now can do, which clearly is so very desir- 
 able ; and directly it was felt it to be somewhat of a 
 privilege it would be more sought after, and you 
 would get a better class of men in the force ; you 
 would get rid of all the inefficient men ; you would 
 be then obliged to say, I cannot have more than this 
 maximum establishment to which I am limited, and 
 I must therefore weed out those who are the most 
 inefficient. 
 
 4241. You say that you would first give some 
 assistance tow.ards the clothing, next that all tlie 
 ordinary expenses, such as rifle ranges and regimental 
 expenses, should be defrayed by the public ? — Some 
 portion of them. 
 
 4242. How would you propose that the clothing 
 should be given to the men ; is it to be made up by 
 the War Office, and issued in that way, or do you 
 propose that a certain sum should be given in aid of 
 the clothing ? — That depends upon whether you wish 
 to have a uniform colour for the volunteers to be 
 
 clothed in ; if you .allow then: to clothe themselves in 
 any colour, as at present, I think it would require a 
 fixed sum of about 2/. a year. 
 
 4243. I understood you to say that you would object 
 to cloth l)eiug given ? — No ; 1 object to it beinggiven 
 at Goverimient price, I should ccmsider that as no 
 assistance at all, or next to noiu\ f(}r it would 1)0 so 
 small ; 1 would not take the Government colour (grey 
 or reil) at the Goverinnent jirice. If you insisted 
 iqion a uniform colour, I think the Government ought 
 to give tlie cloth altogether. I do, however, think 
 they ought to give some assistance as to the clothing. 
 
 4244. Do you think, if the officers were relieved to 
 a very large extent of tlicir present expenses, that 
 you would get a more efficient class of ofhcers ? — No 
 dt>u!it alioul it. 
 
 424.5. I presume j-ou would not give any assistance 
 to a corps unless the privates were thoroughly effi- 
 cient ? — Certainly not. 
 
 4246. Unless they were thoroughly efficient in 
 musketry drill, and unless they had attended, I pre- 
 sume, a certain number of drills in the course of a 
 year ? — Precisely so. 
 
 4247. Unless a man eoidd be certified to have gone 
 through those drills, and to be an efficient rifleman, 
 you would not give any assistance to a corps for that 
 man ? — Certainly not. 
 
 4248. {Major-Gcu. Eyre.) You propose that the 
 volunteer force should be limited to a certain number? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4249. Say 120,000 or lo0,G00 ?— Yes. 
 
 4250. Would not your object be attained at once 
 by withholding the aid and by contenting yourselves 
 with such volunteers as were bnua Jide volunteers, 
 and who would require no aid ? — No; because in that 
 case you would not be able to com(! to i)arliament for 
 a certain assistance, and without aid I think the force 
 would soon fall away to an insignificant amount. 
 
 4251. But you would not want to go to parliament 
 in that case at all, you wouiil have a sufficient number 
 of volunteers who could affcu'd to lie volunteers, and 
 who would not require any aid ? — I do not think that 
 would do ; with us I can assure you that they cannot 
 aflbrd it, they require aid. 
 
 4252. A certain proportion of the present numbers 
 do ; but if you were satisfied with a nucleus of 
 120,000 men, would not the object to which you 
 have referred be at once attained, without going to 
 parliament for anything ? — No, I think you would 
 soon lose some of the most efficient corps ; and iu 
 many districts the force would entirely disappear. 
 
 4253. {Col. 3/acMitrdo.) Do you think it would 
 amount to a prohibition of the volunteers in certain 
 parts of the country where the classes only exist who 
 require assistance? — Yes, and some of the best 
 classes ; you would get very often clerks and many 
 respectable people ; but the class of mechanics I think 
 to lie the very best, they are the most regular 
 attendants, and the most amenable to their drill, and 
 you would lose them, for they cannot aftbrd it. 
 
 4254. {Lord Ovcrsfonc.) Is there, in your judgment, 
 any reason for limiting the force, except pecuniary 
 considerations ? — I should rather refer to general 
 officers for an answer to that question. 
 
 4255. You have expressed an opinion that the 
 volunteer force ought to be limited in its numbers ? — 
 Perhaps I ought not to give that opinion ; but I 
 think that a normal force of 120,000 men would bo 
 sufficient. 
 
 4256. I understand the very basis of your evidence 
 to be, that the volunteer force ought to be limited in 
 numbers ? — I have heard that opinion very generally 
 expressed. 
 
 4257. Is that your o|iiiilon ? — Yes, as far as I am 
 qualified to give an opinioij. 
 
 4258. Is that opinion f'ouiuled u|)on jiecuniary con- 
 siderations exclusively, or uiiou any other considera- 
 tions combined with that ? — I want to know what 
 you say is requisite for the defence of the country, be 
 it large or be it small ; I think that parliament would 
 cheerfully grant it, if it was a fixed qu.antitv, but 
 
 A a 3 
 
 Major 
 L. L. DUlwyn, 
 
 M.r. 
 
 8 July 186 J.
 
 m 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOBE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Major that they would object to an undefined and uncertain 
 L. L. Dillwyn, quantity. 
 
 4259. When you speak of au undefined and un- 
 certain quantity, do you mean an uncertain pecuniary 
 charge ? — Yes. 
 
 4260. Do you think that the limitation of the 
 volunteer force would be sufficiently accomplished by 
 more stringent regulations as to the amount of dis- 
 cipline and efficiency which should be required to 
 constitute a volunteer, in the technical sense of the 
 term, " an effective ? " — If you do not give the 
 volunteers aid, they will soon dwindle away altogether. 
 
 4261. I want to ascertain whether you think that 
 the limitation of the number which you seem to think 
 desirable would be sufficiently accomplished by means 
 of increased strictness in the requisitions as to dis- 
 cipline and efficiency, compliance with which should 
 constitute an effective volunteer ? — No, I think not ; 
 I think you must recollect that if you give them aid 
 it would operate as a great stimulus to volunteering, 
 and that you would have a great increase to the 
 force. 
 
 4262. Assuming that aid is given to those only who 
 are declared to be eflective, and that the requisitions 
 laid down to constitute an effective were more 
 stringent than they are now, do you think that that 
 would accomplish a sufficient limitation of the num- 
 bers ? — No, I think you would increase your force if 
 you gave aid, and still make them effective. 
 
 4263. Do you think, with the pecuniary aid that 
 you suggest, the force would still increase in numbers, 
 notwithstanding that the aid was given only to those 
 who were declared to be effective, and that the 
 qualifications were considerably raised ? — If you give 
 the pecuniary assistance that I suggest, I think you 
 may increase the force, and unless you limit that force 
 to some fixed quantity, it would increase it to a great 
 extent. 
 
 4264. Tour opinion is that with some additional 
 pecuniary aid from the Government the present 
 volunteer force might be largely augmented in num- 
 bers, and their efficiency largely increased ? — Yes, 
 that is my opinion decidedly. 
 
 4265. Do you consider the volunteer force at the 
 present moment under your command in an efficient 
 state ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 4266. Is it your opinion that the volunteer force 
 throughout your county is in an efficient state ? — 
 Yes, I do, so far as I have means of judging. 
 
 4267. But speaking generally, do you think that 
 they are in an efficient state ? — Yes. 
 
 4268. Do you give your opinion as to their effi- 
 ciency with reference to their discipline and to the 
 condition of their arms, and their capacity to use 
 them ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 4269. Do you see any ground to apprehend di- 
 minished efficiency in the force, assuming that the 
 pecuniary pressure to which you have alluded was 
 sufficiently met ? — No ; I think that by reducing the 
 force you will increase the efficiency of it very much ; 
 and by making it a sort of privilege to become a 
 volunteer, and not to let any man who thinks he may 
 join this or that regiment enter it and make it a 
 favour that he should come ; I would make it a 
 matter of scrutiny in order to get men of good 
 character into the force, and to make it a favour to 
 let them come in. 
 
 4270. When you speak of making it a favour, do 
 you mean that you will examine into their general 
 character and condition ? — To a certain extent I do 
 that now ; I do not allow an habitual drunkard or a 
 man of notoriously bad character to come into the 
 corps. 
 
 4271. Do you think that the examination into their 
 character and condition ought to be more searching 
 than it now is ? — It necessarily would be so if you 
 seek to increase them ; but I have no right now to 
 say that I can refuse a respectable man to be a volun- 
 teer ; I have no instructions that I am to limit my 
 corps to a minimum battalion, which is its present 
 strength. 
 
 4272. I'wish to ascertain whether you contemplate 
 diminishing the numbers and increasing the efficiency 
 of the volunteers by greater stringency of examina- 
 tion into their character and condition, and how you 
 would work that principle ? — I think that if clothes 
 were given to them, and you held out to them certain 
 other inducements, there would be an anxiety on their 
 part to be retained in the corps, and I should insist 
 then upon more punctual attendance at drill, and as 
 to many other little matters. 
 
 4273. You would rely more upon increased strict- 
 ness in the regulations with regard to attendance at 
 drill and the military requirements generally than 
 you would upon an examination into their character 
 and condition ? — Yes ; I should not go much into the 
 character of the men, but I should be a little more 
 particular than I am now. 
 
 4274. Have you formed any opinion as to the 
 effect of the volunteer movement upon the moral and 
 industrial character of the people of your county ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4275. What is that opinion ? — That it has had an 
 extremely good effect ; and I may mention one case. 
 There is a person who is a large maimfacturer in 
 Swansea, and a number of his men joined my corps ; 
 after they had been in it for some time their employer 
 told me that they had been, generally speaking, much 
 better conducted and steadier men since they joined. 
 
 4276. Do you think that the volunteer movement 
 has a tendency to promote the moral and industrial 
 training of the community ? — Yes. I have seen it in 
 very many instances with respect to young men about 
 town, who used to hang about billiard rooms and the 
 bars at public houses ; they now go to drill and shoot 
 at the rifle ranges. 
 
 4277. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelot.) Do you think that you 
 have enrolled in your corps the class of men who in 
 your part of the country were likely to enlist in the 
 army or in the militia ? — No. 
 
 4278. Are they of quite a distinct class ? — Yes. 
 
 4279. Do you not think that if your men were 
 relieved from any pecuniary expenditure they would be 
 willing at all times to give their time to the volunteer 
 service ? — Yes, at all times if they could possibly do 
 so; but they cannot always, for in large towns there 
 are so many works going on that you must consult their 
 employers ; I cannot insist too much upon it even 
 with the men I have. I have to consider the interest 
 of the employers, who will suffer if I take the men 
 out too much from their work. 
 
 4280. It is only to the money out of pocket, as far 
 as you know, that they object ? — That is all. 
 
 4281. {Sir G. A. fFeiheralL) Would not the same 
 difficulty exist, in the event of a war, in getting all 
 the men together ? — No. 
 
 4282. Why not ; would all the works stop ? — I 
 suppose in the case of an invasion most works would 
 stop, or be only at half work, and every one, employers 
 and all, would willingly make every sacrifice required 
 of them for repelling it. 
 
 4283. {Mujor-Gen. Eyre.) Suppose that the Secre- 
 tary of State informed you that your corps should 
 receive a certain amount of pecuniary aid for every 
 man whom you could certify to be effective, and that 
 the term effective referred principally to the man's 
 proficiency in the musketry course, with some little 
 knowledge of company drill, should you be able to 
 give such guarantee, or what means would you have 
 of ascertaining it ? — I should inspect the men in order 
 to ascertain it. I have a regular adjutant, a gentleman 
 who has been in the line, Captain West ; and I have 
 a Serjeant, the best serjeant I could get from the line ; 
 and with their assistance, consulting with them, I 
 should take care never to give a guarantee unless I 
 was satisfied that it was an honest one. 
 
 4284. It appears to me that it is not so easy to 
 ascertain the state of the musketry instruction, because, 
 although in some corps a register is kept, in some it is 
 not kept, and it does not appear to be obligatory upon 
 you to keep a register ? — I know that Captain West
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 18S 
 
 has insisted very much upon the muskotry instruction 
 and the regular drill, and he has had my full con- 
 currence in so acting. 
 
 4285. But still it is i-ather a vague knowledge of it 
 that you have, is it not ? — Yes, no doubt, as I have 
 not been myself in the army ; 1 should be very 
 much guided by my adjutant and the serjeant, who 
 have been in the army ; the Serjeant was a serjeant- 
 major in the 3rd battalion of the rifle lirigude. I have 
 got the best men that I could. 
 
 4286. It appears to me that the arrangement is 
 not sufficiently defined to enable you to make this 
 
 return ? — I do not see that ; we liave regular drill MaioT 
 
 books and regular drill returns, and regular entries -^- ^- Dillwyn, 
 as to every man and the drills lliey have attended. ^■^- ■ 
 
 My returns are sent up every month. I have lately . tTTrsj. 
 fitted up an armoury at considerable expense ; it is • 
 
 a very large room, 70 feet long, where they meet 
 every night, and there are squads of recruits always 
 drilling there ; they like to comedown there, and they 
 are drilled in musketry and in every other hranch of 
 volunteer drill according to regidatiotis. 
 
 4287. ( Chairman.) Have you any further suggestion 
 to make to the Commission ? — No. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 Mr. Sheriif Glassfoed Bell, Lieutenant-Colonel Stirling CRAWFauu, Lieutenant-Colonel William 
 Stirling, Captain Alexander B. McGrigor, Mr. James Lockiiart, examined. 
 
 4288. {Chairman.) The Secretary received a letter 
 a short time ago, dated 2nd July, enclosing a copy of 
 a resolution which I believe was agreed to at a 
 meeting of the committee held in Glasgow, in which 
 it was stated, " That in the opinion of this committee 
 " it would be of great importance to the interests of 
 " the volunteer movement in this c[uarter, that 
 " Colonels Stirling Crawford and Stirling, who 
 " are presently in London, and Mr. Sheriff Bell, 
 " who is to be in London shortly, should be examined 
 " as witnesses Ijy the Royal Commissioners ; as, also, 
 " that Captain A. B. McGrigor and Mr. Lockhart, 
 " the secretary, should be asked to attend and give 
 " evidence." In consequence of that letter, you have 
 been invited to attend here to day. I believe you have 
 been made acquainted with the purport of Colonel 
 Dreghorn's evidence, which was considered by the 
 Commission very satisfactory, and we shall now be glad 
 to know whether you have anything to add to that 
 evidence, or if you in any way dissent from what 
 Colonel Dreghorn has stated? — {Mr. Sheriff Bell.) 
 I believe I may say, for myself and the other gen- 
 tlemen who accompany me, that we concur generally 
 in the evidence given by Colonel Dreghorn ; we 
 think that in many respects it is very sound and 
 important evidence, but there are one or two matters 
 upon which we desire to be permitted to give a little 
 additional explanation. One or two questions were put 
 • to him, which would seem to point to a difference of 
 opinion having at one time existed in the Glasgow com- 
 mittee as to the best mode of applying the fund which 
 was collected there for the aid of the volunteer force. 
 But the committee came to a unanimous resolution on 
 the subject. That committee originated from a very 
 great public meeting of the citizens of Glasgow, 
 which was held on the 23d November 1859; it was 
 one of the earliest public meetings on the subject of 
 the volunteer force which took place in Scotland, if 
 not the very earliest meeting. It was held in our 
 largest hall, and was very crowdedly attended, and 
 the resolutions that were moved there were moved 
 by all the most eminent gentlemen connected officially 
 with Glasgow ; a committee was' then appointed of 138 
 individuals, the committee consisting of citizens, field 
 officers, and captains ; that committee appointed a 
 sub-committee of 32 citizens and officers, and that 
 sub-committee again sub-committed to Sir James 
 Campbell, the present Lord Provost, myself. Sir 
 Archibald Campbell, Colonel Dreghorn, Captain 
 Taylor, and Captain Murray, to report as to the 
 objects to which the fund that was to be collected, 
 under the superintendence of this committee, should be 
 applied ; and that committee unanimously reported that 
 they considered the object of the fund should be first 
 to afford facilities for the formation of volunteer corps, 
 especially among the artizan and working classes, 
 and generally among those who were unable to defray 
 entirely their own expenses, and to make grants in 
 consideration of the necessities and the number of 
 effective members of each corps. The second object 
 was to promote the efficiency of the corps after they 
 were formed, by affording pecimiary assistance to defray 
 the expenses of ranges, targets, &c., the custody of 
 
 arms, and if necessary the pay of instructors. I may 
 say that that committee ])rcpai'ed its report wry 
 carefully ; there was some discussion in the committee 
 as to whether it would be pi-oper to vote as our first 
 object a proportion of the funds for the formation of 
 artizan corps ; but after full consideration of the 
 subject, the committee unanimously re])orted that 
 such ought to be the primary olijcct, and they were 
 influenced in coining to that conclusion by this con- 
 viction, which I believe all the gentlemen present with 
 me entertain too, that without introducing the artizan 
 element into the volunteer movement you might have 
 a small and excellent body of volunteers, but you 
 could have nothing like a national army. Artizan is 
 a wide word, Init we understand it to cover all persons 
 who have limited incomes, varying perhaps from 50/. 
 or 60/. to 100/. or 120/. per annum. The committee 
 thought that unless we included that class of people 
 it would be impossible to give the volunteer movement 
 a wide diffusion ; the result was successful in Glasgow, 
 because in consequence of the fund being a good deal 
 applied towards the aid of the artizan companies, we 
 have succeeded in establishing a highly respectable 
 force, numerous in proportion to the other bodies of 
 volunteers in Scotland. 
 
 4289. Are there any other points that you wish to 
 refer to ? -^ Yes ; I wish to refer to the question 
 of the restrictions that should be placed on the 
 application of a grant amounting to 30*. a man, if 
 such a grant were made. Of course, all those who 
 want the assistance are prepaied to take it, and our 
 impression is, that if put as a general Goverinnent 
 measure, there is nobody at all who would refuse it. 
 We think, however, that if there hapj)eried to be, or 
 if the Commissioners receive evidence that there are 
 certain corps who do not want it and would rather 
 be without it, they could easily be put on that foot- 
 ing, and that the Government might determine to 
 give as a maximum a certain sum, .and that if 
 any corps intimated th.it they did not want it, or 
 that they wanted less, or that they wanted nothing 
 more, of course they would not get it, Ijut our impres- 
 sion is that if it was put on such a footing it would be 
 taken as a national grant, and that every volunteer 
 would take it. I m.ay take the liberty of calling the 
 attention of the Commission to this. The Glasgow 
 officers have unanimously affirmed it to be their opinion 
 that the Government grant should not lie under 21. .a 
 man. This was affirmed by them, not only liy resolu- 
 tions passed at public meetings of their own, but it was 
 affirmed upon a broader basis at a meeting which took 
 place at the Thatched House Tavern here on the 23rd 
 of Februfiry 1861, when it was stated that the expenses 
 Avhich were absolutely required would amount, in- 
 cluding clothing, to 21. Zs. Ofrf. There were full 
 details giveu showing how that sum was arrived at. 
 It included 4.$. 4|rf. for drill Serjeants, who have 
 now been supplied, but I think that that is the 
 only thing that has been supplied since that resolution 
 was passed ; of course that would diminish the amount 
 and bring it a little under 21., but since that there has 
 been an additional expense thrown upon the volunteers 
 in the shape of capes and leggings, which probably 
 
 A a 4 
 
 Mr. 
 Sheriff O. Bell, 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 S. Crawford, 
 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 
 W. Stirling, 
 
 Capt. A. B. 
 
 McGrigor, 
 Mr. J. 
 
 Lockhart.
 
 184 
 
 jVIINUTE« OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APROINTED 
 
 Mr. 
 Sheriff G. Bell, 
 Licut.-Col. 
 S. Crawford, 
 Lieut.-Col. 
 W. Stirling, 
 Capt. A. B. 
 McGriqor, 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Lockhart. 
 
 8 July 18G2. 
 
 brings up the sum very nearly to -wliat it was stated at 
 before. At tiiat meeting the gentlemen who came np 
 to attend it from various nuarters, both of England 
 and Scotland, were anxious to have the Glasgow reso- 
 lution for 21. a man affirmed, lint we found that in 
 London there was considerable diversity of opinion, 
 and the feeling seemed to be that if such a large sum 
 was asked, nothing might be got at all, and so, as a 
 compromise, the resolution that was passed at that 
 meeting was to ask only for IZ. a man. I would next 
 refer to the public subscription raised in Glasgow, 
 Avith respect to which there may be some mis- 
 apprehension. I am authorized to say that whilst the 
 funds subscribed and placed at the disposal of the 
 committee amounted only to 3,618^., one cause wliy it 
 was not a great deal larger was, that very large sums 
 were subscribed liy individuals and bodies of indivi- 
 duals who took an interest in the formation of 
 particular corps, and they considered it unneces- 
 sary to subscribe to the general fund, as they had done 
 all they could out of their own funds in support of 
 particular corps in which they were interested ; and 
 it was for this reason also that some of the corps in 
 Glasgow have abstained from asking assistance from 
 the central fund, as they have been supported by 
 funds from parties who were interested in them, 
 such as the ship-building companies, and the ship- 
 owners in Glasgow. The leading merchants and a 
 number of others had companies, and they subscribed 
 largely to aid them ; and a great many of those com- 
 panies were really called into existence by subscrip- 
 tions from the leading men in those different depart- 
 ments of trade. Some of the companies that asked for 
 relief from the central fund committee were refused 
 on the ground that they had large assistance given to 
 them from those sources to which I have alluded. It 
 is also unquestionable that the honorary members have 
 contributed a considerable sum, taking them as a body, 
 in aid of the voljinteer movement, so that I think, 
 from local sources, I may say safely that the fund was 
 three or four times larger on the whole than the fund 
 that was placed at the disposal of the central fuud 
 committee. We quite concur in the opinion that 
 that source of assistance is now at an end, and that 
 we cannot collect any fund for our local committee 
 now ; nor will those parties who have strained their 
 efforts to the utmost to support particidar corps be 
 able to renew those efforts, except, perhaps, in two 
 or three instances. As a general rule, we believe 
 that assistance from private sources is substantially at 
 an end in Glasgow. 
 
 4290. You presided, I think, at a meeting that was 
 held on the 2nd July, where the resolution was passed 
 •which led to your examination here to day ? — Yes. 
 
 4291. Did Colonel Dreghorn move that resolution ? 
 .—He did. 
 
 4292. And he is perfectly aware that you differ 
 from him in some respects as to the evidence that he 
 has given, and that yon have come to day to give 
 evidence on the points concerned ? — I have not had 
 an opportunity of communicating with him since I 
 saw his evidence ; I have not seen him since ; and 
 we wish to be understood as not coming here to 
 criticize his evidence, but to concur in it generally 
 with two or three explanations. 
 
 4293. You do not, I believe, concur with him in 
 thinking that the grant should be 30,?. per man 'i — I 
 have already stated the oi>inion of the Glasgow officers 
 to be that 21. per man should be granted. I do not 
 know wliether the Commission will receive it as a 
 piece of evidence, but our secretary holds in his hands 
 a petition to the House of Commons signed by 261 
 officers praying for aid to that extent. 
 
 4294. All belonging to Glasgow ? — Yes, and Lan- 
 arkshire. 
 
 4295. {Lord Overstone.) Has that petition been 
 received by the House of Commons ? — It was never 
 presented to the House ; it was proposed to have been 
 presented ; but in consequence of the appointment of 
 the Royal Commission it was thought better to delay 
 its presentation, as the matter had been referred to 
 
 the Commission in the first instance ; but our secre- 
 tary can lay that ])etition on your table. 
 
 4296. {Sir A. Campbell.) Was it not also delayed 
 in consequence of a doubt arising as to whether it 
 would be proper for the officers of the force to petition 
 parliament collectively, instead of making their repre- 
 sentations, each through his lord-lieutenant, to Govern- 
 ment ? — I am not aware of that. 
 
 {Col. Crawford.) I rather think it was. 
 
 (jl/r. Sheriff Bell.) I know that one of the members 
 for Glasgow, to whom I spoke upon the subject, con- 
 sulted an officer of the House of Commons for the 
 purpose of ascertaining whether he thought tlicre was 
 any incompetency in the presentation of the petition, 
 and he was informed that he did not thiid< so. 
 
 4297. {Chairman.) The petition could not have 
 been presented to the House of Commons, it being a 
 petition for money, without some recommendation 
 from the crown ? — It was thought proper at all events 
 not to present it as matters turned out. If the Com- 
 missioners are anxious for specific information with 
 regard to the present number of the volunteers at 
 Glasgow, there are one or two gentlemen here who can 
 give them the precise numbers. I believe that there 
 are in Lanarkshire somewhere about 7,000. 
 
 4298. {Col. MacMtcrdo.) I do not suppose that 
 Colonel Dreghorn was very far out in stating the 
 present number at Glasgow to be some 6,000 or 7,000 ? 
 - — No ; I may lie permitted, however, to say that it is 
 the opinion of Colonel Dreghorn, of myself, and the 
 other gentlemen here that the continuance of those 
 numbers cannot be relied on, except to a very 
 limited extent, unless some general measure of 
 assistance is extended to the volunteers in Glasgow. 
 I may say that we are all of opinion that the issue of 
 clothing in kind would not be satisfactory, and would 
 not be a popular measure with the volunteers in our 
 district ; but we believe that by placing at the disposal 
 of the officers a grant of money to relieve the volun- 
 teers of personal expenses, both as to clothing and 
 other expenses, it would be perfectly agreeable to 
 almost the whole of the volunteers in Glasgow, if not 
 the whole. 
 
 4299. How would the issue of cloth be received not 
 made up ? — I think it would be thought to be an im- 
 perfect measure. 
 
 4300. {Sir A. Campbell.) Imperfect in what sense?. 
 — As not meeting the necessity ; the real necessity is 
 either to keep up the volunteer force to a larger 
 number, or to let it fall to a much smaller number ; we 
 think that you cannot keep it up to a larger number 
 merely by giving cloth for uniforms ; we think that 
 more must be done than that. 
 
 4301. The meaning of Colonel MacMurdo's question 
 was that the cloth should be given gratis ? — Yes, 
 I am aware of that, and I spoke under that im- 
 pression. 
 
 4302. ( Col. 3IacMurdo.) You have stated that the 
 volunteers would object to receive the clothing made 
 uj); why would they object, simply because it would 
 be an objectionable way of distributing a fund intended 
 for the volunteers, or because an issue in kind would 
 be objectionable? — I think that the issuing of cloth 
 not made up would be more generally liked by them 
 than issuing it made up ; but I think, whilst of course 
 it would be accepted as a boon, that it Avould not be 
 considered generally so satisfactory a mode of dealing 
 with the question. 
 
 4303. {Major-Gcn. Ei/re.) lu point of fact they 
 would rather have the money ? — I think so. May 
 I be ])crmitted now to state to the Commissioners what 
 we think would be the numlier remaining of the 
 volunteers in Glasgow if the artizan element was left 
 out? 
 
 4304. Certainly ? — Our belief is, understanding by 
 the word " artizan " not merely a mechanic, but such 
 persons as clerks and young men employed in ware- 
 houses, and persons whose incomes do not exceed 
 about 100/. a year, that if that element was left out of 
 the number of the Glasgow volunteers, there would 
 not be more than eight or ten companies left.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THK CONDITION i)F TIIK VDI.UXTEKR FOIU'K IX OUKAT BRITAIN. 
 
 185 
 
 430o. (Lord OverstoneJ) You mean 100/. a year in 
 receipts, not income from realized i)roperIy i — Yes, 
 receipts ; we wish very si roni;ly to statu our concurrence 
 iu tlic opinion tliat tlie ailmissiou of tliat class of people 
 into the volunteer cor|)S has greatly tended to ini[)rove 
 their social tone. 1 must sa}', as a maf^istrate myself 
 of a good many years' standing in Glasgow, that 1 feel 
 it very strongh-, and therefore concur entirely in wliat 
 Colonel Dreghorn has stated upon that subject. In 
 connexion with that sul)ject, I may state that we do 
 not exactly understand what is meant l>y self-sup- 
 porting. Tliero are iu Glasgow properly speaking 
 very few self-supporting corps, for even those who 
 have not received assistance from the centriil i'und 
 committee have received assistance and have lieen 
 almost called into existence, I may say, by assistance 
 from other sources. If the term self-supporting corps 
 sigiulies those who have recei\ed no assistance what- 
 soever, those wlio have entirely supported themselves 
 from beginning to end, then in Glasgow those are very 
 few. I am not prepared to tender any further sug- 
 gestions, but I shall be hajipy to answer auy questions 
 upon the various details. Some of the gentlemen with 
 me can speak from more practical knowledge of the 
 subject than I can. I may say that it would be very 
 satisfactory to the Glasgow volunteers if these gentle- 
 men were allowed to make some statements to the 
 Commission. 
 
 (^Col. Stirling.) I should like to make a few re- 
 marks as connuanding 10 companies of pure artizans ; 
 and, first, I would say that even sujiposing the Go- 
 vernment were to issue cloth, and that the men 
 were thus clothed and accoutred, I require 30 otfi- 
 cers, and if there is no money grant made by the 
 Government, the other expenses, which I believe 
 the Commissioners are aware of, would fall entirely 
 upon those 30 officers and myself. I find it ini- 
 possilile to get 30 officers to pay the money that is 
 required for the battalion expenses. I could do so 
 just now, but I am well aware that if nothing is done 
 this year my officers will begin to resign ; many of 
 them have done so already, as their income will not 
 allow them to bear the expenses which fall upon them. 
 I have sent in a I'eport very fully stating those 
 expenses. I think that what I have to raise now is 
 equal to 400/. or 600/. a year. 
 
 4306. {Sir A. Campbell.) Does that cover the 
 wliole expense of the coi'ps, except as to clothing and 
 reclothing ? — Yes, it does. / I have reported very 
 fully upon that point. 
 
 4307. {IJeuf.-Col. Baritelnt.) Is part of that ex- 
 pense for liutts ? — Yes, and for the range and all the 
 et ceteras. 
 
 4308. Do you make the men clean their own arms ? 
 — No, we call them in once a year, and clean them. 
 
 4309. Who pays for the cleaning of the arms ? — 
 The tifficers do. 
 
 4310. Whom do you employ to clean them ? — We 
 employ a pensioner or the serjeauts, who are paid by 
 the Government. We cannot insist upon their cleaning 
 the arms, and they do not do it. 
 
 4311. {Col. MacMiirdo.) Is there one half of your 
 arms iu the possession of the members, and do they 
 clean them ? — Yes. 
 
 4312. The other half that is in the armoury are 
 cleaned at the ex])ense of the officers ? — Yes. 
 
 4313. {IJeut.-Col. Bnrttelot.) What does it cost 
 per annum to clean the arms ; you have 10 com- 
 panies ? — 1 have commanded the battalion for two 
 years, and I called in the rifles at the end of the last 
 year, and they were thoroughly cleaned. I could not 
 say exactly, without reference to my report, what the 
 cost was. 
 
 4314. It would be quite impossible to make the 
 men clean their own arms entirelj', I suppose ? — We 
 do make them clean them as long as they arc in their 
 own possession. It is necessary, as I am responsible 
 for the arms of the battalion, that I should see them 
 once a year, and it is also desirable that I should have 
 them thoroughly cleaned and taken to pieces. 
 
 4315. {Col. MacMurdo.) It appears that one-half 
 
 only of your nuMnbcrs are clothed ; is that the case ? 
 — A great many of them do not come to inspection, 
 as their uniforms are very shal)by. 
 
 4316. {CliiiiniKin.) llavi; they got \iniforms ? — 
 Yes. I suppose they could show their coats and 
 trousers ; they are still in e.\islenci'. 
 
 4317. {Sir A. Campbell.) The real dilliculty is as 
 to reclothing them ? — Yes. 
 
 431iS. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) How long have they 
 had their clothing ? — A great many of my companies 
 are of different ages. 
 
 4319. Which is (he oldest? — It is three years old. 
 
 4320. Unless they have used their uniforms for 
 every-day purjwses they ought not to be worn out. 
 Do they attend the drills very often ? — The company 
 drills arc very numerous ; w(- have battalion drills 
 once a fortnight. 
 
 4321. {Sir A. Campbell.) If nniliirnis were sup- 
 plied to the men by Government, either in clothing 
 made up or not made uj), or money was granted for 
 the purpose of purchasing them, what security would 
 you propose that the Government should have as to 
 the care of that clothing, and as to the inen not leaving 
 the regiment after a fortnight's notice, taking the 
 uniforms with them ? — It has struck me that it might 
 be done iu this way, that when the clothing was given 
 to them by the Government, should a nnin not attend a 
 sufficient number of drills, the uniform might be taken 
 from him, and he be legally compelled to pay a certain 
 sum of money. 
 
 4322. {Major Ilareourt.) Would there be nuudi 
 difficulty iu getting a man to wear a uniform after it 
 had been taken away from another ? — Considerable 
 difficulty ; I know that in the Lanarkshire yeomanry 
 we h;ive got many of the meu when the clothes were 
 not much worn to wear them ; but I think there 
 would be a difficulty with us. 
 
 4323. In ])oint of fact it would be a dead loss to 
 the Government if a man left at the end of the 14 days, 
 taking his ckithes with him ? — Yes ; if you could not 
 insist upon his paying for that uniform ; but suppose 
 that he got clothes at the value of 3/. 10«., and he 
 went away at the end of the year, I should consider 
 that if he paid 21. 10*. and took away his clothes, the 
 Government would have a very good bargain with 
 him. 
 
 4324. With respect to the mechanics, do you think 
 that there would be any difficulty in recovering the 
 price of the uniform if they left in that way ? — If they 
 ran from the country, there would, of course ; there is 
 all the risk of that; but if a man was known, and he 
 was still to be found, and he did not attend a sufficient 
 number of drills, there would be no dilliculty. 
 
 432,5. {Col. MacMurdo.) Suppose that at the end 
 of one year he gave notice to leave, how would you 
 recover two-thirds of the amount from him if he were 
 jiu artizan, and not able to pay except by instalments ? 
 — I have had two cases occur in the regiment of the 
 men pawning their rifles, and I inunediately took steps 
 and obtained a sheriff's warrant, and put the man in 
 gaol. I got the value of his riffe immediately if I did 
 not get the rifle itself. 
 
 {Mr. Sheriff Bell.) There are two malteis which 
 have occurred to me upon this (juestion ; and one is, 
 that if the uniform supplied were a unilorm uniform, 
 and a volunteer left a district, supposing that he was 
 not leaving the country altogether, \\(\ could take 
 a letter from the Government olficcr of that district, 
 and he would very likely conrinnc as a volunteer in 
 the new district to which he had goue, from having a 
 uniform uniform. Another nnitleris this, we think, in 
 Glasgow, that if Government aid was given a longer 
 period of notice as to resignation might be dennmded. 
 
 4326. {Major Ilareourt.) Do any of your men now 
 pay by instalments? — {Cal. Slirlijig.) I have one 
 company the members of which are all iu one factory 
 now, and these men are still paying. 
 
 4327. Do you find any difficulty in getting in the 
 payments ? — Yes, considerable difficulty, without vou 
 have a hold upon them through the party who pays 
 
 Mr. 
 
 SlwriJI G.Bl-n, 
 
 Linlt.-Cfl. 
 
 S. (y air for (if 
 
 l.uill.-'Cul. 
 
 W, Stirlintj. 
 
 Capl. A. ii. 
 
 Medritjor, 
 
 Mr. ./. Loek- 
 
 IkuI. 
 
 8 July 1SG2. 
 
 their wages. 
 
 Bb
 
 186 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN fiEFOEE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 4328. Would not the difficulty be etjually great in 
 recovering the value of uniforms supplied by Govern- 
 ment (supposing them to be supplied), if these men 
 chose to leave the corps a fortnight after receiving 
 the uniforms ? — These naen have houses containing 
 furniture. 
 
 4329. {Lord Overstone.) What number of artizan 
 volunteers do you consider are connected with Glas- 
 gow ? I should say that Ibur-fitths of the volunteers 
 
 in Glasgow are artizaus. 
 
 4330. What number do they represent ? — I should 
 say 4,000. 
 
 4331. With what feeling do you conceive that the 
 artizan volunteers of Glasgow would contemplate a 
 discontinuance of the volunteer movement ? — With 
 considerable disgust. 
 
 4332. Disgust, of what nature ; based upon what 
 grounds ? — That they had sacrificed a great deal in 
 tliemselves ; that they had sacrificed their time and 
 their money, and that they had met with no support 
 from tlie Government. 
 
 4333. For what reason would they desii-e a con- 
 tinuance of the volunteer force ? — On account of a 
 certain trust, which they feel has been given to them 
 by the Government ; that they have been considered 
 worthy of that trust, aEd they have taken considerable 
 pride in it; and I believe that they would be too happy, 
 speaking of a large portion of them, to continue. 
 
 4334. You consider that their feeling is that serv- 
 ing in the volunteer force is an honourable trust 
 reposed in them ? — I do. 
 
 4335. What do you think would be the effect, sup- 
 posing that the volunteers of Scotland were called 
 upon to act in Lancashire, of the withdiawal from 
 Glasgow of 4,000 artizans ? — I could trust implicitly 
 in them. 
 
 4336. My question is not directed to the confidence 
 to be placed in those artizans ; but to what would be 
 the effect upon the industrial system of Glasgow if a 
 sudden withdrawal from Glasgow of 4,000 artizans 
 took place ? — I should presume that if occasion re- 
 quired it their position would be such, as artizans, 
 that they would be too glad to go, and would feel it 
 their duty to go. 
 
 4337. Do you think that the withdrawal of so large 
 a number as 4,000 artizans from Glasgow would m 
 any way derange and throw into disorder the indus- 
 trial system of that great city ? — Not under the 
 circumstances under which it would arise. 
 
 4338. How would the circumstances under which 
 it would arise affect the question ? — I believe that it 
 would be in the case of an invasion or civil war, when 
 the disorganization of the industry of Glasgow would 
 be complete. 
 
 4339. Suppose some serious menace upon a distant 
 part of the shores of Ireland caused the withdrawal 
 from Glasgow, otherwise in an undisturbed state, of 
 4,000 of the most active and respectable artizans, do 
 you think that that would create confusion by dis- 
 turbing the industrial system of Glasgow ? — I con- 
 sider that there would be a panic in Glasgow, and 
 that there would be disorganization in consequence 
 of any invasion in a distant part of the country. 
 
 4340. Do you think that the withdrawal of 4,000 
 efficient artizaus at a moment of panic would increase 
 and intensify that evil in Glasgow ? — Rather the 
 reverse. I think it would show that the ])arties 
 holding property in Glasgow could depend upon the 
 mechanics or the lower orders of the city. 
 
 4341. Do you consider that the volunteer force in 
 Glasgow is now in an efficient state for real service ? 
 — I am only a volunteer myself, and I am not capable 
 of judging as men in the army would be. 
 
 4342. Supposing you, as commanding a portion of 
 the volunteer force, received an announcement from 
 the Government that it was necessary to call for the 
 services of that force, should you feel that the 
 Glasgow volunteers were in a condition of efficiency 
 as to their discipline, the state of their arms and 
 accoutrements, and their c<a])at'ity to use them ? — I 
 can speak for my owii battalion, and I consider that 
 
 we are in a state of efficiency if we have the adjutant 
 that we have now. 
 
 4343. Do you feel confident that your volunteers 
 could, upon a sudden emergency, render valuable 
 assistance in supplementing the regular force of the 
 country ? — I do. 
 
 4344. {Sir A. Campbell.) I think I understood 
 Mr. Sheriff' Bell, or one of the gentlemen present, to 
 suggest an alteration in the time of the enrolment, or 
 a prolongation of the notice? — {Mr. Sheriff Bell.) I 
 suggested a longer notice. 
 
 4345. At present a man is only enrolled for a 
 fortnight, and you would suggest that he should be 
 enrolled for a longer period. How would you apply 
 that to the present state of the law ? — I presume that 
 this Government measure, if it is carried through, 
 will have such conditions annexed as the Govern- 
 ment may think right. If a supplementary Act of 
 Parliament were required it could easily be obtained. 
 
 4346. A man being enrolled already under the 
 Act, by the jjrovisions of which he can quit the 
 service on giving a fortnight's notice, it would require, 
 would it not, that each individual volunteer should 
 re-enrol himself for a longer period of service in 
 order to place himself under the new Act ? — In point 
 of form there might be something of that sort 
 necessary. 
 
 4347. How would you apply that practically to the 
 corps at present existing, in which some of the mem- 
 bers might be willing to re-enrol themselves for a 
 longer period and others might not be willing to enrol 
 for a longer period ? — If they were not willing to re- 
 enrol for a longer period, and a longer period were 
 thought desirable, it might be necessary that they 
 should resign. 
 
 4348. {Col. 3Iac3Iurdo.) Do you think that you 
 would have a greater hold upon the volunteers on 
 account of the period of time being extended ? — 
 I think that Government aid being afforded to the 
 volunteers would give a much greater hold over them,' 
 as they would feel bound in honour to discharge their 
 duty still more eflBciently and better than they have 
 hitherto done. 
 
 {Col. Crawford.) And the Government would 
 require more from them. 
 
 4349. My question has reference to the extended 
 period of time. I do not clearly understand what 
 greater hold we should have over the volunteers by 
 making the period six w.eeks or six months ? — {Mr. 
 Sheriff Bell.) I would like to guard myself by saying 
 that I do liot think a very long period of enrolment 
 could be demanded, but certainly I think that it might 
 be materially increased some weeks beyond the pre- 
 sent period. 
 
 4350. What solid advantage do you think the 
 Government would derive from extending the period? 
 — It would at all events bind the volunteers for a 
 longer period ; it would indicate an expectation, it 
 they accepted all these benefits from the Government, 
 that they would be permanent. 
 
 4351. But what would it bind the volunteers to 
 do ? — To continue as volunteers. 
 
 4352. Enrolled ?— Yes. 
 
 4353. It would not compel a volunteer to go to 
 drill, and I do not see what better hold you would 
 have over a volunteer by extending the time ? — An 
 extension of the time would only be in connexion 
 with the grant, and we think that the grant would put 
 such a spirit into the men that it would cause them 
 to attend more regularly at drill and make them much 
 more permanent volunteers. 
 
 4354. {Sir A. Campbell.) You are aware that at 
 the present time there are no means of compelling an 
 enrolled member to come to drill ; how would a longer 
 period of enrolment give commanding officers more 
 power to enforce it ? — It would give more power, as 
 it would require a longer notice of resignation. 
 
 4355. But a man having received aid from the 
 Government might remain on the roll for a year and 
 yet not come to drill ? — Yes,
 
 TO INQtllRE INTO THE CONDrriON OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 187 
 
 {Col. Crawford.') I thiuk that such a, man ought to 
 be tui-ned out altogether. 
 
 {Mr. Sheriff Bell.) It would bo for the con- 
 fsideration of the Government whether the aid, if 
 granted, should be given in advance, or at the end of 
 a year, and whether tliere shoukl not be certain re- 
 ffulations as to the men who were to be entitled to 
 receive aid with reference to the amount of drill they 
 had gone through. 
 
 {Capt. McGrigor.) I should wish to nifiitiou that 
 there is a considerable drawback under which many 
 of the corps labour, as I believe, not only in Glas- 
 gow but in the kingdom generally, and which is 
 pretty much in the ratio of their activity in coming 
 forward, namely, that the Government did not grant 
 a full allowance of rifles at first, and those corps, my 
 own company, for example, were in a manner obliged 
 to purchase their own rifles. The practical result of 
 that was, that we were saddled with a sum of some- 
 thing like 430Z. for rifles, which, at the present time, 
 may be said to be a dead loss, as the Government now 
 have granted rifles to the full amount of the enrolled 
 strength of corps. 
 
 4356. {Chainnati.) What was done with the old 
 rifles ? — We have drilled with them up to a very 
 recent period ; but seeing that other companies were 
 being armed with the long Enfield, and all com- 
 petitions were being carried on with them, it was 
 
 thought desirable that wo should be also armed with 
 them. 
 
 4357. {Sir A. Campbell.) You are aware that a 
 circuliu- was issued at one time proposing to purchase 
 those rifles? — Yes; they offered to give 3/. 2s. 6d. 
 per rifle, whereas they cost us 5/. 15s. and 5/. 10s. 
 
 4358. Would many of your men have availed them- 
 selves of that, offer if it had been carried out? — The 
 rifles belong to the company, and at that time we 
 thought it better to keep them ; but the feeling has 
 nuu-li changed, in consequence of the universal use of 
 the long Enfield in com])ctitions, and if an ofier were 
 renewed it might be uccept.(>d ; the matter was brouglit 
 up at one of our meetings lately, and we tlien 
 thought that we could not afford to part with these 
 rifles under 4/. With reference to the self-sup- 
 porting companies in Glasgow, I think that there arc 
 97 rifle companies in the county, of which about 80 
 are in Glasgow; and if by self-supporting C(mii)anies 
 is meant companies the members of which ex- 
 clusively pay then- own expenses, I do not think that 
 there are half a dozen of them. 
 
 (Mr. Sheriff' Bell.) -May Mr. Lockhart, our secre- 
 tary, now hand you the petition of the Lanarkshire 
 officers to which I have before referred ? 
 
 {Chairman.) After the direct evidence we have 
 had that will now be unnecessary. 
 
 Mr. 
 Sheriff G.Bell, 
 Lieut.-Cnl. 
 S. (yuu'fiird, 
 /.iciil.-'Col. 
 ^y. Stirlimi, 
 Capt. A. is. 
 Mcdriynr, 
 Mr. .J. Lock- 
 hart. 
 
 The witnesses withdrew. 
 
 Captain Charles Whitworth Russell examined. 
 
 4359. {Chairman.) You are adjutant of an admin- 
 istrative brigade in Devonshire ? — Yes. 
 
 4360. To what Ijrigade are you attached? — The 
 2nd brigade of the Devonshire Artillery Volunteers. 
 
 4361. We understand that you have some sugges- 
 tions to offer to the Commission as to the artillery 
 volunteers ? — The chief point that I wish to recommend 
 is that the volunteers should have a knowledge of 
 every gun and carriage that they are likely to be called 
 upon, in case of service, to work. The volunteer 
 artilleiy at present are confined to standing gun drill, 
 I think that is the word in the instruction now ; 
 one of the corps in my brigade happens to be 
 placed where the only fort is armed entirely with the 
 present modern gun, the smooth-bore 68-pouiider solid 
 shot, and an eight-inch shell gun, both mounted on 
 dwarf traversing platforms, which is a drill in itself, 
 pc^rfectly separate from the standing gun drill, or from 
 the 18-poundcr or 24-])ounder on travelling carriages. 
 It is of course easy to learn, but there is something in 
 it which volunteer artillerymen, however perfect they 
 might be in the manner of serving ordinary garrison 
 guns, would be useless at for a certain time, and in 
 case of mere shot practice at inspections or for prize 
 firing they would probably hurt themselves from not 
 imderstanding the use of that gun. At Dartmouth, 
 the place that I speak of now, they practise across 
 the river Dart, firing into a ploughed field, and it is 
 impossible to fire shell at all. I should like, if it 
 could be done, that my men might have permission 
 to learn the drill of these guns, and there is an open 
 range seaward where shell practice might be con- 
 ducted ; we are allowed for instruction a certain 
 numljer of shells eveiy year, and in the course of a year 
 and a half we have not fired one shell, having no range. 
 
 4362. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Are your batteries 
 inland batteries ? — No ; we are at the estuary of the 
 river and we fire across the river ; but if we could 
 use this fort, which is only three-quarters of a mile 
 from the town, we could fire seaward. 
 
 4363. {Major Harcourt.) Are you not aware that 
 in the southeastern district tlie artillery volunteers 
 receive regular instruction in drill at guns on dwarf 
 traversing platforms, guns on travelling carriages, 
 and siege guns ? — I was not aware of tluit. I have 
 applied through the colonel commanding the district, 
 and it has not been in his power yet to give per- 
 mission for the wear and tear of the materials. 
 
 4364. Have you applied to the War Office ? — No. 
 
 4365. {Col. MacMurdn.) You have mentioned a 
 fort three-quarters of a mile from the town of Dart- 
 mouth ? — Yes ; from the centre of the town. 
 
 4366. That is a royal artillery fort, is it not? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4367. And armed ?— Yes. 
 
 4368. Is practice ever carried on from that fort ? — 
 No, it is a new fort. 
 
 4369. Is it intended for practice ? — No, the fort has 
 been built since the guns were supplied to the volun- 
 teers, and my object is to try to use this fort, as it is 
 the arm they (the corps) will probably be called u]ion 
 to use in action or time of war, and that permission 
 should be given to the colonel of the western district 
 to permit practice to be carried on with that gun. 
 
 4370. Are you aware of any objection to [iraetice 
 being carried on there, on account of the inconvenience, 
 to the public ? — On the contrary, for I think that it 
 would be better than where it is, and where it is car- 
 ried on at great inconvenience to the puljlic. I have 
 had to change the range from 1,000 yards to 800, to 
 suit the convenience of the public; I found the corps 
 firing over a floating ferry, and I refused to cariy on 
 the practice there as it was not safe. 
 
 4371. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Is not this a matter 
 entirely for the local authorities to settle with the War 
 Office ? — Yes, but the difficulty I fancy would be the 
 expense between the ammunition for a 68-potnider and 
 a 24-pounder, which is the gun usually given to \olun- 
 teers in our district. 
 
 4372. {Major Harcourt.) Are there any other 
 things with which yaw think the artillery volunteers 
 in your district ought to be supplied ? — I think il 
 very important that they should be supplied with all 
 the appliances for repository drill. 
 
 4373. {Chairman.) Are the volunteer batteries 
 under your control in a perfectly efficient state ? — 
 That is rather a difficult question for me to answer, 
 as far as I am concerned T am perfectly well pleased. 
 
 4374. {Col. MacMurdo.) Do you think that the 
 volunteers would be fit to man the fortifications in the 
 event of a war ? — I think 'so perfectly. 
 
 4375. {Chairman.) Have you any other sugges- 
 tion ? — Only what has been spoken of before, viz., 
 the recommending triangle gyns and skidding to 
 be supplied for mounting and dismounting guns, of 
 which I spoke to Major Vernon Harcourt. 
 
 Capt. 
 C. TV. RusscU. 
 
 The witness withdi-ew. 
 
 Bb 2
 
 188 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOHE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Major Sir George Denys, Bart., examined. 
 
 — 4376. (C/iairman.) You are the Major, I believe, of 
 1862. (],e ist administrative battalion of the North Riding 
 
 of Yorkshire Rifle Volunteers ? — Yes. 
 
 4377. Of how many companies does that battalion 
 consist?. — There are 12. 
 
 4378. What is the present strength of the battalion ? 
 — About 750 ; it varies between 700 and 750. 
 
 4379. Of what classes are the corps composed ? — 
 They vary very much in the different districts ; for 
 instance, in three or four of the corps they are composed 
 almost entirely of working men, of men who are 
 earning probably from \0s. to 20*. a week ; in others, 
 such as at Richmond, most of the men are respectable 
 tradesmen, who provide their own accoutrements and 
 clothing, but they vary a good deal, in some one or 
 two corps they are mostly farmers' sons ; but on the 
 average of the 750, I do not think there would be 
 more than one half of them who pay for their own 
 clothing. 
 
 4380. Did those men upon the first enrolment of the 
 corps provide themselves with clothing ? — Not in my 
 corps. 
 
 4381. How was that supplied ? — By subscriptions. 
 
 4382. Was there a subscription to a battalion fnnd ? 
 — There was a general fund in the first instance, and 
 it was divided amongst those corps who stood most 
 in need of it ; those who could do without it drew 
 nothing from it, and those who wanted it divided it 
 between them. Since that time there has been no 
 general fund ; it was merely to start the thing at first. 
 
 4383. Some of the men, I presume, are entirely 
 clothed and ecjuipped from this fund ? — Yes, com- 
 pletely ; in my own corps, of which I am captain, I 
 think out of 60 men only seven paid for their own 
 clothing. 
 
 4384. {31ajor-Gen. Eyre.) Did the other members 
 contribute no part whatever towards their clothing ? 
 —No. 
 
 4385. ( Chairman.) Are any subscriptions annually 
 raised to support the corps ? — There is a subscription, 
 viz., captain 5/., lieutenant 4/., ensign 3/., and 
 there was, of 5s. per man annually ; but there was 
 great difficulty in raising that os. ; it was then re- 
 duced to half-a-crown ; but there has been equal 
 difficulty in getting that from a great majority of the 
 men. 
 
 4386. Is the clothing at all wearing out ? — It is 
 looking very well, considering that it has been in use 
 for three j^ears ; it will do very well till next year. 
 
 4387. When it requires renewal, how do you sup- 
 pose it will be paid for ? — -There is no money to pay 
 for it whatever, and there are 25 of my men, recruits 
 (if this year, who have no clothes at all. 
 
 4388. Do you thuik that any assistance is necessary 
 from the Government to enable the corps to go on ? — 
 I think that one half of the corps in the battalion to 
 which I belong will come to an end very sjjeedily un- 
 less there is material assistance afforded more than 
 has hitherto been given from the Government. 
 
 4389. There are, of course, other expenses con- 
 nected with the corps beyond the clothing ? — Yes. 
 
 4390. Have you a rifle range for each corps ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4391. Are the men well drilled in the use of the 
 rifle ? — The men are, upon the whole, tolerably well 
 drilled. 
 
 4392. Do the arms remain in the possession of the 
 men, or are they lodged in an armoury ? — M}' own 
 arms are in the armoury ; they are only allowed upon 
 particular occasions, for the convenience of the men, to 
 take them home, and they bring them back to the 
 armoury at the next parade. 
 
 4393. Who takes care of them in the armoury ? — 
 A Serjeant. 
 
 4394. Is he paid for out of the funds of the corps ? — 
 No, he takes charge of the armoury ; I have a regular 
 armourer Serjeant who belongs to the militia, who 
 comes once in six weeks to examine and clean the 
 arms, and for which he is paid the Government price 
 of 2c?. or 3(/. for each rifle each time that he comes. 
 
 4395. Have you an adjutant ? — Yes. 
 
 4396. Does he receive any extra pay ? — None 
 whatever. 
 
 4397. Can you say the same as to the drill instruc- 
 tors ? — As to the drill instructors, it is impossible to 
 say what they have ; they are generally overpaid ; I 
 know one instance of an instructor getting 3^. 6rf. a 
 day, others get watches, &c., in addition to their pay. 
 
 4398. You are speaking now of the Serjeants in the 
 permanent militia staff? — Yes ; who go out as drill 
 instructors for six weeks or two mouths at a time. 
 
 4399. Do the subaltern officers know their duty in 
 these corps ? — I think the great defect in the volunteer 
 force is the inefficiency of the officers generally, and 
 the non-commissioned officers ; neither the officers nor 
 the non-commissioned officers, as a general rule, know 
 their duty. I do not mean to say that there are not 
 exce])tions, but as a general rule they are inefficient ; 
 take them away from the drill instructors, and they 
 are done for directly. 
 
 4400. Can you suggest any mode by which they 
 could be made more efficient ?— That is a very difficult 
 point, for it very often happens that the most inefficient 
 officers are those wlio pay the greatest amount of 
 money towards keeping up the thing, and if you were 
 to enforce discipline or to enforce an exammatiou, and 
 said that no officer should be appointed to a corps, 
 either as a subaltern or as a commander, unless he 
 passed a certain examination, it would ha^e the effect, 
 I have no doubt, of driving out a vast number, and 
 therefore you would lose men who are contributing 
 more than any others to support the movement. 
 
 4401. {3Iajor-Gen. Eyre.) Supposing the thing 
 were possible, and that such Government aid was 
 given as would make the volunteers independent of 
 donations, or anything of that kind, would you not 
 then recommend that the officers should be subjected 
 to some test ? — I should recommend this, that if the 
 Government decide upon recommending to the House 
 of Commons to make a grant of money, and the House 
 of Commons agreed to give the monc}', then having 
 paid the piper, the Government ought to choose the 
 tune ; that is to say, if you give money you ought to 
 stipulate strictlj', looking at the mass of evidence that 
 you have been collecting, as to how that money 
 ought to be expended, otherwise I think the money 
 might be squandered, and the countr}' put to very 
 great expense, aud have very little to show for it. 
 The great want, next to the want of discipline, is the 
 want of power in your officers to carry out that dis- 
 cipline ; in my battalion there is Lord Cathcart, the 
 lieutenant-colonel, myself, his major, and 12 corps, 
 aud those 12 corps are 12 imperia in iniperio, 12 
 separate War Offices with one Horse Guards, with 
 no power whatever ; each captain of a corps is totally 
 and entirely independent of the m.ajor and the 
 colonel. If you read the orders of the lieutenant- 
 colonels commanding you will find they are to this 
 effect : If it is agreeable to the captahis to meet on 
 such and such a day he will make things pleasant, 
 and if there is plenty provided to eat and to drink, 
 you can get a certain number of men to come ; but 
 instead of having 700 men at his battalion drills, he 
 has perhaps only 200. 
 
 4402. (Major- Gen. Eyre.') Does a picnic count for 
 one of the 24 parades ? — No ; that is a battalion 
 affair altogether. And the fact is that no commanding 
 officer can enforce a battalion parade, because of the 
 expense incurred in bringing the men together. It is 
 all very well in small counties, but in Yorkshire, take, 
 for example, these 12 corps, some of them are perhaps 
 70 and 80 miles asunder, and how can you bring them 
 together for battalion parade without incurring great 
 expense. Who is to pay for that battalion parade ? 
 The commander wishes to have a liattalion drill, and 
 his captains maybe equally anxious to have a battalion 
 drill, but who is to pay for bringing the men to the 
 place, if they are put to an expense of As. for each man. 
 That must come out of the funds of the corps. Then 
 there is the eating and drinking, which probably comes
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 189 
 
 I 
 
 I 
 
 out of the lieutenant-colonel's pocket, and flien there 
 artr !i certain nnraber of men to lie puid for their day's 
 work as well, for if they are hiliourini; men they 
 eaimot atford to lose four or tivc days' work in a year, 
 and unless there is a fund out of which to pay for the 
 battalion expenses, there is no other way to do it 
 except out of the pockets of the iiflicers. 
 
 4403. [Lord Orcrsfo/ie.) In case of the volnnlcer 
 force beinf; suddenly called out, is it your oj)inion that 
 the volunteers in Yorksiiire would be able to render 
 effectual aid in assistiui? and supplenientini; thcreg'ular 
 army ? — That would depend very much U|3on what 
 you want the volunteers to do. If )'<ni were to ask 
 me, supposinn; that you wanted the volunteers for Held 
 service, whether I would rather have 10,000 efficient 
 regulars, well officered, with the non-conunissioned 
 officers and men well drilled and ready for immediate 
 action in the field, or 100,000 volunteers, I would say 
 give me 10,000 regulars, but if they were wanted for 
 garrison duty, I should say they are perfectly fit for 
 that. Ill three months' time, if endjodied, I have not 
 the slightest doubt that they could be made equal to 
 the militia. 
 
 4404. (Sir A. CampbeU.) Do you mean the em- 
 bodied or disembodied militia ? — The disemliodied 
 militia. The great strength of the militia lies in their 
 officers, and in their regular stattl They have a 
 regular stafi' of old, experienced, picked men ;< of 
 pensioned men from the regular army, and that is a 
 nucleus to begin upon. Take a man who has been in 
 the service, and give him 30 good non-commissioned 
 officers, and he can make a regiment in a short time. 
 Our non-commissioned officers are not to be com- 
 pared with the staff of a disembodied militia regi- 
 ment, who are always kept together, where they are 
 under the eye of the commanding officer and the 
 adjutant. But it is a great advantage to the country 
 no doubt to have 1. 50,000 or 200,000 men who are to 
 a certain extent drilled, and who have a certain 
 knowledge of military matters, who can handle the 
 rifle, aiul who, if they were emliodied, would be made 
 equal to a militia regiment. 
 
 4405. {Lord Ovrrsfone.) Is it your opinion that 
 the existence of the present volunteer force does tend 
 to strengthen the yiower of the country for defending 
 itself agaijist invasion ? — Most certainly ; but I think 
 we have flattered the force a great deal too much. 
 The officers have been too nmch flattered ; the officers 
 and non-commissioned officers and men go away from 
 these great reviews and battalion parades laying the 
 flattering unction to their souls that they are equal to 
 the regulars. 
 
 4406. You think that the volunteer force properly 
 estimated and accurately weighed might render ma- 
 terial assistance in preserving the security of the 
 country, but great danger may arise from over esti- 
 mating the value of that force and misunderstanding 
 its real efficiency ? — -Yes ; I should like to see the 
 volunteer force more Horse-guarded, that is, more put 
 under the control of the authorities, because I think 
 that having 12 imperia in imperio iu each battalion 
 having a large force of armed men in the counti-y, 
 subject to uo control whatever except that of their o\\n 
 officers, they might become very dangerous ; but the 
 more they are assimilated to the regular armj^ or to 
 the militia, and the more the officers commanding 
 corps are made subservient to their field officers, and 
 the field officers to the War Office, the more use they 
 will eventuallj' be to the country. 
 
 4407. Does that amount to anything more than 
 this, that the more nearly the volunteer force assumes 
 the character of the regular army, the more efficient 
 it will be ?— No. 
 
 4408. (Miijor-Gcn. Ei/rc.) You spoke of their 
 handling the rifle ; do you find (hat that very im- 
 portant branch of the instruction to be given to 
 volunteers is in a satisfactory state ? — Yes ; I think 
 that the mcTi generally go through the manual and 
 platoon exercise very well. 
 
 4409. I refer more jiarticularly to actual target 
 practice ? — Of course the efficiency of a corps in 
 
 practice de]icnds very much upon I he amouiil of 
 money that each individual |iri\ate can spend in the 
 l)urchase of annniniition ; a nniii may be a very good 
 shot, but a very slovenly man in I he ranks, as far as 
 his rifle is concerned. 
 
 4410. (Co/. AfdcMiirdo.) Tiie corps in your Riding 
 all consist of separate companies, do tliey not ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4411. You have nol, I believe, had many oppor- 
 tunities of seeing them together ? — There have been 
 several attempts made at battalion drills, but Lord 
 C'athcart has never succeeded in mustering more than 
 300 men at one drill. 
 
 4412. Have yo\i cvir had an opportunity of 
 observing closely the drill of the consolidated batta- 
 lions of volunteers ? — Except in London I have not. 
 
 4413. Does the opinion which you expressed broadly 
 a short time back as to the efiiciency of the volnnlcer 
 force refer to those consolidated battalions ? — Certainly 
 not. 
 
 4414. You rather referred to the stale of the corps 
 under your own particular observation ? — Yes ; the 
 administrative battalions in general. I ihink it would 
 be very unfair to comjiare the administrative lialtalions 
 with the metropolitan battalions, for instance ; they 
 are totally different. I am ((uite astonished to see 
 the efficient state at which the nietropolita]] battalions 
 have arrived. 
 
 4415. (Major Harcourt.) With reference to the 
 powers of the colonels commanding administrative 
 battalions, have you any suggestions to make ? — I think 
 that the thin end of the wedge might be introduced, 
 in the event of the Government giving an allowance 
 of money to the force, for a general keeping of accounts 
 in every individual corps in the same way that they 
 are kept in the regular army, and making the captains 
 of cor])s responsible to the colonel ; in lact, that the 
 colonel himself should be held responsible to the War 
 Office for inspecting thebooksof every individual eorj)s, 
 and seeing that the money granted by the Government 
 was expended in the way that Government intended, 
 and in no other way ; and I think that the insperting 
 officers should make a particular point of looking into 
 the books to see the way in which the money has been 
 expended, when a corps is inspected, just the same as 
 a general officer does when inspecting a regiment. 
 Then the ciqstains would feel that they could not spend 
 the money for bands or other follies, which they arc 
 very much given to do. 
 
 4416. Would you propose that the colonel of an 
 administrative battalion should have an}' control over 
 the drills of the individual corps composing that ad- 
 ministrati\e battalion ? — Yes, certainly, and enforce 
 a uniform drill. 
 
 4417. (Sir A. C<niipl>ell.) You have slated that 
 3'ou consider the system of drill insti'uctoi's does not 
 work satisfactorily in administrati\e battalions ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4418. Uo you thiidi that if the drill instructors 
 were under the control of the officer commanding the 
 district, in the same manner as master gunners of the 
 artillery volunteers are under the control of the ar- 
 tillery officer, it would be an improvement ? — In the 
 first place the majority of the drill instructors are pri- 
 marily under the control of the officer commanding 
 the militia battalion to which they belong, and if they 
 were subject also to the officer commanding the dis- 
 trict, they would be in the position of having two 
 connnanding officers, and I do not see what you would 
 gain by it, 
 
 4419. (Sir G. A. Jf'ct/irrall.) You get inefficient 
 instructors to the volunteer corps, and you say that 
 they are s])oilcd ? — I did not say they were inefficient, 
 but they are sjioiled by being over|>aid. 
 
 4420. In the ai-tillcry _all the insli-uctors of tho 
 volunteers belonging lo the coast brigade of artillery 
 and the whole of that coast brigade are under the im- 
 mediate orders of the general officer connnanding tho 
 district. If any man happens to instruct an outlying 
 company of artillery, and misconducts himself in any 
 wav, the officer commanding that district has iwvyer 
 
 Bb 3
 
 190 
 
 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Major Sir G. 
 Denys^ Bart. 
 
 S July 1862. 
 
 to order him to headquarters. Would it not be 
 advantageous if the same power were given to the 
 officer commanding the district over these drill in- 
 structors, who are many of them pensioners from the 
 line ? — Yes, there is no doubt that anything that 
 would facilitate the removal of a man charged with 
 misconduct would be a desirable thing. The more 
 immediately you can place him under the authority of 
 the general commanding the district the better ; but 
 I apprehend that no officer commanding a corps, if he 
 is in the slightest degree tit for his situation, would 
 keep a man for one hour who had been guilty of 
 misconduct. I think that, generally speaking, drill 
 
 instructors conduct themselves well as a body, but I 
 should say, knowing what soldiers are, that they 
 have too much idle time on their hands. Of course 
 there are only certain hours in the 24 when they 
 can be employed ; that is to say, perhaps for two 
 hours out of the 24 they are employed, and for the 
 rest of their time they are not employed, and they 
 must get into idle habits. Generally speaking I 
 believe they behave themselves well, but what I com- 
 plain of is, that the officers have spoiled their own 
 market by bidding one against the other, and by 
 paying these men so extravagantly they have become 
 above their work. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 Adjourned till Tuesday next at half-past 12 o'clock. 
 
 Tuesday, 15th July 1862. 
 
 PRESENT 
 
 Col W. M. S. 
 
 Macmurdo, 
 
 C.B. 
 
 15 July 1862. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLET. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Viscount Hardinge. 
 Lord Elcho. 
 
 Lord OVERSTONE. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Barttelot. 
 
 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. Campbell. 
 Lieutenant-General Sir G. A. Wetherall. 
 Major-General Etre. 
 Colonel MacMurdo. 
 Major Harcourt. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY in the Chair. 
 Colonel W. M. S. MacMurdo, C.B., examined. 
 
 4421. {Chairman.) We shall be obliged to you to 
 give us an explanation of some of the evidence that 
 we have heard. One of the recommendations, I think 
 by Lord Radstock, was that there should be certain 
 brigade districts, and that no person should be allowed 
 to recruit out of his own district. That would appear 
 to be almost impossible, and we should like to know 
 what your opinion is upon that point ? — I think with 
 regard to country districts, that the recruiting would 
 naturally assume the form of local corps ; but in such 
 a place as London, I consider that that is impossible. 
 London has changed very much from the time when 
 the old volunteers were formed according to districts ; 
 then people lived within their districts ; but now, in 
 consequence of railways, London has become extended 
 far beyond its former limits, and the people who 
 properly belong to certain districts and wards in 
 London, actually live now out of tOAvu after their 
 business hours, and that has been the cause perhaps of 
 a certain lai'ge class of corps having been formed in 
 London, without reference to localities, and of the 
 system of district local corps having fallen generally 
 into disuse. 
 
 4422. With regard to the colonels of administra- 
 tive battalions, do you think it would be possible 
 to put the drill instructors of the corps included in 
 an administrative battalion under the orders of the 
 lieutenant-colonel commanding the battalion in the 
 same way that the adjutant is, so as to form the staflf of 
 the battalion ? — It might be possible to do so, and I 
 dare say it would work well, but it must be done I 
 think by a special Act of Parliament, for the drill 
 instructors are enrolled volunteers, and we are there- 
 fore obliged, in distributing the drill instructors to 
 the different corps constituting an administrative 
 battalion, to cause them to be enrolled in the several 
 corps to which they are attached as volunteers. 
 Hence, if you take them from those corps and form 
 them as part of the staff" of an administrative bat- 
 talion, they are no longer volunteers, but they are a 
 part of the staff" in the same way that the adjutants 
 are. I think that the system would work well, sup- 
 posing that you mean that those non-conmiissioned 
 officers should belong to the staff' of a battalion, and 
 be distributed to the corps at ihe discretion of the 
 commanding officer of the battalion. 
 
 4423. Are the drill instructors at present subject 
 
 to the articles of war or not ? — Yes, they receive pay, 
 and they are consequently serving under the Mutiny 
 Act, but a special provision would be necessary with 
 regard to those men if they were formed into a staff" 
 because they would be serving under conditions dif- 
 ferent from the present Act. 
 
 4424. What is the exact position of the lieutenant- 
 colonel commanding an administrative battalion; when 
 he goes to inspect a corps included in his battalion, 
 has he any power or authority as he would have if he 
 were present at a battalion parade ? — He has the 
 power of an inspecting officer, that is all ; and if 
 any irregularity takes place when the men^are under 
 arms on parade, or at any time indeed, he has the 
 power then of calling upon the officer commanding 
 the corps in which that irregularity takes place, to 
 carry out the provisions of the law : he requires him 
 to do so, and if he does not do it, of course the 
 matter is then referred through the lord lieutenant 
 to the Secretary or State for War. 
 
 4425. If the officer commanding the corps does 
 not do what the lieutenant-colonel thinks right, he 
 repoits the matter to the lord lieutenant, who 
 forwards the report to the Secretary of State for 
 War ? — Yes ; in establishing the system of admini- 
 strative battalions it was apparent that the powers 
 which, by the Act of Parliament, belong properly to 
 the officer commanding a corps could not be given to 
 the officer commanding a battalion composed of corps 
 according to the administrative organization, but 
 the Secretary of State for War put it in the power of 
 the officers commanding a battalion to call upon any 
 officer commanding a corps to carry out the provisions 
 of the Act in punishing any oifender. 
 
 44i6. {Lord Overstonc.) Do you think that the 
 authority of the colonel commanding an administrative 
 battalion can be advantageously increased or ex- 
 tended ? — No ; the administrative battalion is simply 
 a provisional arrangement, and might not last ; for 
 instance, if war threatened, the probability is that the 
 corps of which it was composed would increase them- 
 selves so as to become separate battalions, consequently 
 there would be no necessity then for the administrative 
 organization to be continued ; and I see no necessity, 
 therefore, to increase the power of the colonel com- 
 manding an administrative battalion. 
 
 4427. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) Not so long as the pre-
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 191 
 
 sent organization of the administrative battalions 
 exists, as that could ahviiys lie nltercd if tlic corps 
 swelled so much as to become sepnnitc luittalious ? — 
 I do uot see any necessity for it. 
 
 4428. {Sir A. Campbell.) In case the commander 
 of an administrative battalion is not satisfied with the 
 mode in which the muster rolls are kept, or the re- 
 turns are made, what course must he adopt ? — He lias 
 at all times access to the muster rolls of the corps 
 composing his battalion, and if he finds that any one 
 of those muster rolls is improperly kept, it is his duty 
 to point out the irregularity to the otHccr commanding, 
 and if he neglects his duty he would naturally report 
 him through the lord lieutenant to the Secretary of 
 State. 
 
 4429. Then it would require, first, an inspection to 
 find out the fault ; secondly, an examination to see 
 whether it had been corrected ; then a report ; and 
 then a court of inquiry ? — A court of inquiry need 
 not be the consequence, but you must consider the 
 situation of the several corps composing a battalion ; 
 they are geographically scattered, and it would require 
 a personal inspection in the first instance, under any 
 circumstances, by the oflicer commanding the batta- 
 lion. 
 
 4430. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Is it your opinion that 
 the muster rolls of the dilFerent corps are, generally 
 speaking, correctly kept, or that volunteers are re- 
 turned as effectives who really are not so within the 
 meaning of the Act ? — I have no reason to suppose 
 that the muster rolls are irregularly kept, or that 
 inaccurate returns are made of men as nominally 
 effective who are non-effective ; the returns are all 
 made to the lord lieutenant, and abstracts of those 
 returns are sent to this office. 
 
 4431. What I mean is this, that in one of the 
 circulars issued by the War Office, an order was 
 issued that no volunteer should be returned as effec- 
 tive who was not pi'esent at the annual inspection ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4432. Do you believe that, generally speaking, 
 volunteers are returned as effective who have not 
 attended at the annual inspection, and where no excuse 
 has been given for their absence ? — I have no reason 
 to believe that that circular is not attended to ; it is 
 the duty of the commanding officers of corps who 
 certify to the correctness of their returns. 
 
 4433. {Chairman.) Does not the Secretary of State 
 for War require a nominal return to be 'made from 
 every corps ? — No. 
 
 4434. {Sir A. Campbell.) Have the assistant-in- 
 spectors the power of examining the books and muster 
 i-oUs ?— Yes. 
 
 4435. Do they exercise that power ? — Yes. 
 
 4436. {Chairman.) The assistant-inspectors also 
 inspect the arms, do they not ? — Yes ; they inspect 
 the arms of the corps, and a return is given in not 
 only at every annual inspection, but every quarter, 
 of those arms that are in the possession of the members, 
 and of those that are deposited in the armouries. 
 
 4437. {Lieut.-Col. Barttelof.) I think you stated 
 that in the case of an invasion the rural coriis would 
 so increase in numbers that they would most likely 
 liecome consolidated battalions, and therefore that the 
 officers now commanding them would be done away 
 with ? — I think I said that in some districts they 
 might increase, and that consequently we considered 
 the administrative organization a provisional one. 
 
 4438. But do you not think, from 30ur knowledge 
 of the administrative organization, that most of the 
 corps are now nearly as strong as they will be ? — No, 
 I think not; for example, at East Grinstead, according 
 to the census, the effective volunteers are calculated 
 at 1 in 10 of adult males, and there would lie 330 in 
 a time of war in East Grinstead alone. 
 
 4439. Supposing you do away ^vith the officer 
 commanding an administrative battalion in a time of 
 war, do not you think that he would be a man the 
 most likely to know his duty ? — Certainly ; unques- 
 tionably he would be the first person employed. 
 
 4440. {Lord Elcho.) You did not say, I think, that Vol. W. M. H. 
 you would do away with him ? — No. Munnunlo, 
 
 4441. {Lord Ovcrstone.) Did you not state, in ' ■"• 
 reply to my question as to the jiresent sufficiency of . .~j !„., 
 the authority of the colonel commanding an adniinis- ' ' 
 trr.tive battalion, tliat it was your opinion liiat, his 
 
 jiresent authority ought not to be extended or strength- ' 
 
 (uimI in consideration of tlu' probability liiat the 
 authority of the officers connnaudiug the several com- 
 panies in that battalion would, in case of war, become 
 more important than it is now ? — Yes. 
 
 4442. Upon the supposition that the respective 
 companies now Ibrming an administrative battalion 
 became so augmented in numbers that the authority 
 of the officer commanding each company became 
 necessarily more im])ortant, and so important as to 
 make it inexpedient now to augment the authority of 
 the colonel commanding the full battalion, what 
 would be the condition of the authority of the colonel 
 connnauding the administrative battalion? — The 
 colonel commanding tiie administrative battalion, if 
 he were an efficient officer, would Ije the verj' first 
 person to be employed to command one ol' those corps 
 so augmented to the establishment of a battalion. 
 
 4443. If that be so, how does the objection to 
 extending his authority now apply ? — Because he 
 would then become, according to law, the command- 
 ing officer of one large corps of the establishment of 
 a battalion, and not the commanding officer of an 
 administrative battalion composed of several small 
 corps. 
 
 4444. Will you have the goodness to explain the 
 difference between the position of the commanding 
 officer of a corps, and that of the commanding officer 
 of an administrative battalion ? — According to the 
 Act of Parliament, a volunteer corps is to have a 
 commanding officer, and that commanding officer is 
 given by that Act of Parliament certain powers, and 
 no limitation is put to the establishment of the corjjs ; 
 therefore, the corps may consist of one subdivision of 
 30 men, or one lai'ge battalion of 10, 12, or 20 
 companies, but the officer commanding a subdivision 
 of 30 men has the same power given to him by the 
 Act of Parliament as commanding officer of a corps 
 as the officer who commands the 20 companies, being 
 commanding officer of a corps also. When the 
 volunteers were first raised a few years ago, many of 
 the corps in the country districts consisted of separate 
 companies, and it was deemed expedient to bring 
 those corps into what we term administrative batta- 
 lions ; but the Secretary of State for War was uot 
 able to give officers who were to command those 
 administrative battalions the powers which were 
 given by the Act to the officers commanding corps ; 
 the only power that he could give to them was 
 that of commanding the corps upon parade, and 
 attending to their military insti'uction : that was all. 
 He could not confer upon the officers commanding 
 administrative battalions the powers given liy the 
 Act to the officers commanding the corps of which 
 his battalion was composed. 
 
 4445. Then I understand it to be your opinion 
 that the authority now vested in the colonel com- 
 manding an administrative battalion is, in your judg- 
 ment, sufficient for its present jiurpose, and that the 
 objection raised to it would not constitute any for- 
 midable impediment to extending the authority of 
 that officer in case the volunteers in his county be- 
 came far more numerous ? — I thiidc not. 
 
 4446. {Major-Gcn. Ki/re.) Vou say that. the Secre- 
 tary of State cannot give more power than he has j 
 already given to the commanding officers of adminis- 
 trative battalions ? — Yes. 
 
 4447. But he can give to you or to me, or to any 
 officer he chooses, power to go and inspect tliese corps, 
 and to give any orders that he may think it necessary 
 to give, and, in fact, to interfere. If so, why can he 
 not in the same way give to the officers commanding 
 administrative battalions a similar power ? — The in- 
 specting officer is a functionary ))rovided for by Act 
 of Parliament, and every volunteer corps that is raised 
 
 Bb 4
 
 192 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 mider tliat Act is required to l)e inspected by a field 
 officer once a year ; tlierefore afield officer goes down 
 and appears lipon parade witli certain powers given 
 to him by the Act of Parliament and not by the 
 Secretary' for War ; but I question very much whether 
 I, as an inspecting officer, should have power to in- 
 terfere, except in cases where I saw a positive dere- 
 liction of duty and a departure from the regulations 
 of the service. 
 
 4448. {Sir A. Campbell.) The inspecting officer 
 has no power off parade, has he ? — Inspecting officers 
 have a power deputed to them by the Act of Parlia- 
 ment in the name of the Secretary of State within 
 the scope of the regulations to require officers to com- 
 ply with those regulations. 
 
 4449. ( Viscount Hardinge.) You have stated that 
 in tlie event of a war the commander of a corps or a 
 company would become much more important than 
 at the present time. Will you be good enough to 
 explain what you mean by that ? — I said it would Ije 
 so when they were augmented to battalions. 
 
 4450. Assuming that three or four companies were 
 expanded in the event of a war, and become a 
 battalion, say of 1,000 men, would the senior captain 
 necessarily command that battalion, and is it in that 
 way that you mean that the command of a corps 
 would be more important in a time of war than in 
 a time of peace ? — It would depend upon the recom- 
 mendation of the lord lieutenant, whether a captain 
 should be promoted to the rank of a lieutenant- 
 colonel in command of a battalion. 
 
 4451. Then how would the command of a corps 
 become more imiiortant in a time of war, than in a 
 time of peace if the commandant of a corps was to l)e 
 superseded and have another officer placed over him ? 
 
 Because, if he was competent, he might command 
 
 ton companies instead of one. 
 
 4452. All those companies that now form admin- 
 istrative battalions might be increased to battalions ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4453. The same authority which embodied the 
 company I suppose would increase it and embody it 
 into a corps ? — A company may be a corps. 
 
 4454. A captain might be made a lieutenant- 
 colonel ? — Yes, If considered competent. 
 
 4455. But still the officer commanding an adminis- 
 trative battalion might be appointed ? — Yes. 
 
 4456. Would those companies, if increased into 
 battalions, submit to be commanded by the person 
 appointed by the War Department, in preference to 
 the person who had enlisted them, and whose tenants 
 they might be, and to whom alone, as it has been put, 
 they owe allegiance ? — The War Deijartment appoints 
 no one. Her Majesty approves on tlie lord-lieutenant's 
 recommendation. 
 
 4457. {Lord Ocerstone.) Is not the effect of your 
 view this, that the officer now commanding an ad- 
 ministrative battalion would not necessarily, in the 
 case of war, be the officer commanding that regiment ? 
 — Yes ; not without the recommendation of tlie lord 
 lieutenant and a special appointment. 
 
 4458. A new recommendation and a special appoint- 
 ment must necessarily precede the transition of the 
 authority of the colonel now commanding an ad- 
 ministrative battalion into the colonel commanding 
 the corps under special circumstances ? — Yes. 
 
 4459. {Sir A. Campbell.) Am I to understand you 
 to say fliat tlie companies which have been united in 
 administrative l)attalions are not intended, in time of 
 actual service, to act as integral parts of a larger 
 corps, but that each of them is to be a nucleus in 
 itself of a corps with augmented numbers into whicu 
 it will grow ? — Such would be the natural result of 
 war, because by referring to the state of things in the 
 time of the old volunteers you will find that one in 
 ten of the population capable of bearing arms took 
 up arms, and there is no reason to suppose that the 
 spirit is less active at the present day ; and, con- 
 sequently, there would be the same proportion, if not 
 a greater proportion, of the poi)ulatlon who would 
 take up arms in the event of a war, and arrangements 
 
 would be made by causing all the small corps now 
 brought into administrative battalions to be so many 
 points d'appiii for the increase of the volunteer force 
 generally, and they would form the nuclei of larger 
 battalions. 
 
 4460. On the supposition that the same increase of 
 numbers would take place under the same circum- 
 stances in places where consolidated corps of con- 
 siderable strength existed, how would the new 
 recruits be organized ? — I should imagine by forming 
 fresh corps and transferring part of the staff of tin; 
 already consolidated battalions to form the nucleus of 
 fresh corps. 
 
 4461. {Lord Elcho.) They might be formed, might 
 they not, into second battalions ? — Yes. 
 
 4462. {Sir A. Campbell.) Then in case of a war 
 you would have three classes of corps, one composed 
 entirely of the old, and for volunteers well drilled 
 men ; another in the country composed of a nucleus of 
 well drilled men with anetttouruge of raw recruits ; 
 and a third composed of new men in the towns who 
 would be entirely raw recruits ? — Yes, that would be 
 the natural process of expanding the force into a 
 war establishment ; the present force numbers about 
 one-third of what it would be in a time of war, and 
 the natural mode of increasing that force with re- 
 ference to efficiency would be by increasing all the 
 smaller corps now constituting administrative bat- 
 talions into larger battalions, and also in raising new 
 corjis in districts where they do not now exist. 
 
 4463. I'rom what you have seen of the small corps, 
 is it your opinion that they are now sufficiently well 
 drilled not only to go upon active service, but to form 
 a basis for each of these full corps of three or foni' 
 times their number, of which all the new men should 
 be raw recruits ?• — I have seen very many of the 
 small companies so far advanced in efficiency as to lie 
 very useful nuclei for their exiiansion, but up to the 
 present moment they are not generally In that state 
 of efficiency, although they are progressing very 
 rapidly. 
 
 4464. {Chairman.) If the commanding officer of 
 an administrative battalion was an efficient officer, the 
 lord lieutenant would take care, would he not, to place 
 him in command of one of these larger corps ? — 
 He would be only too glad to avail himself of his 
 services, and the adjutant would be the adjutant of 
 the battalion. 
 
 4465. If 'it were thought necessary, so long as an 
 administrative battalion continues in that state, to 
 give him more authority, it nuist be done by Act of 
 Parliament ? — I do not see much necessity for dis- 
 turbing the Act. 
 
 4466. Several of the witnesses who have been ex- 
 amined have complained that the adjutants of volun- 
 teers are not so well paid as the adjutants of militia 
 regiments, are you aware of what the duties of an 
 adjutant of militia are ? — Yes ; the duties of an adju- 
 tant of militia are those of paymaster as well as of 
 the adjutant, and he is reponsible for many duties 
 which are not applicable to the adjutants of volunteers, 
 lience the pay is larger. 
 
 4467. The pay is larger on account of those in- 
 creased responsibilities ? — Yes; I assume that to be 
 the reason. 
 
 4468. Would there be any difficulty, if it were 
 thought desirable to assist the -solunteers by a money 
 grant, in employing the adjutants of volunteers in 
 that manner ? — None. I may say that I think, under 
 any circumstances, the travelling allowances made to 
 the adjutants ought to be increased. 
 
 4469. {Lord Overstonc.) Supposing you had now 
 a regiment of 1,0U0 volunteers in a high state of dis- 
 cipline in every respect, efficient in every sense of 
 the word, and war was to break out, and the effect 
 was that you mingled with those 1,000 efficient men 
 another 1,000 undrilled raw recruits, do you think that 
 the efficiency of that corps would be increased by that 
 augmentation in numbers, or otherwise ? — If I com- 
 manded a corps of 1,000 well trained volunteers, and 
 another 1,000 was about to be added to them, I would
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 193 
 
 do it by forming a secoud battaliou ; by drawing 
 from the several compiuiies of the well-formed bat- 
 talions, a staff of officers, non-commissioned officers, 
 and drilled men, to form a nucleus for the instruction 
 and leading of the new battalion ; I would then let my 
 efficient battalion take the field with reduced num- 
 bers, leaving the others at home to be formed, and to 
 follow afterwards. 
 
 4470. Do you think that the general result oi' that 
 operation would be a greater inci'easo of strength fi'oni 
 an augmentation of numbers than there would lie loss 
 of strength by diminishing the numbers of the efficient 
 battalion ? — Unquestionably, because I believe that 
 the intelligence of the volunteers is so great, and their 
 aptitude in acquiring a knowledge of their duties so 
 quick, that they would become efficient troops in a 
 veiy short time. 
 
 4471. {Major-Gen. Eyre.) That is if they had 
 officers ? — Yes, trained officers, non-commissioned 
 officers and men. 
 
 4472. ( Viscount Ilardinc/e.') How would you pro- 
 ceed in the I'ural districts, would you make a small 
 company of 60 men a nucleus for a corps which 
 might be expanded to oOO or GOO men ? — Yes. 
 
 4473. Do you think that the rural companies are 
 fit to form such nuclei ? — I have already said that 
 some of them are fit, but I have seen others that are 
 not fit ; but, as I said before, they are progressing 
 satisfactorily in acquiring a knowledge of their 
 duties, which will fit them for such a purpose. 
 
 4474. What interval of time would you allow for 
 the purpose of attaching so many raw recruits to 
 such a company, and to render it fit for service in the 
 field or in garrison ? — I should say 20 days. 
 
 4475. {Earl of Ducie.) That is if they worked 
 all day long ? — Yes. 
 
 4476. {Lord Elcho.) And assuming that the 
 officers and non-commissioned officers understand 
 their duty ? — Yes. 
 
 4477. {Sir A. Campbell.) Do you anticipate, if 
 war were apprehended, that the increase in the num- 
 bers in the country districts would be something like 
 five or six times their present numbers, but that in 
 towns the increase would only be about twice as 
 many ? — I have made no calculation to that effect. 
 I calculate upon one in ten in the population, and the 
 increase would be according to the density of the 
 population. 
 
 4478. {Lord Elcho.) Have you thought of any 
 other way in which the force could be increased ? — 
 No. 
 
 4479. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Do you see any grave 
 objections to giving the colonels of administrative 
 battalions more authority even as a temporary orga- 
 nization ? — No ; there are no objections to it. 
 
 4480. It would merely require another Act of 
 Parliament ? — Yes ; but they can work very well 
 according to the present system. 
 
 4481. {Lord Elcho.) To what extent would you 
 increase those powers ? — I do not recommend it. 
 
 4482. {Chairman.) Several complaints have been 
 made by witnesses examined before the Commission 
 as to the inefficiency of some of the Serjeant instruc- 
 tors coming from militia regiments, and one witness 
 suggested that there should be a drilling school esta- 
 blished similar to the schools for rifle instruction at 
 Hythe ?— Yes. 
 
 4483. Do you think that there is any force in that? 
 — Yes ; I think there is something. A modification 
 of such a plan was suggested liy yourself, that these 
 drill instructors of administrative battalions should 
 be collected at headquarters, and be at the disposal 
 of the officer commanding the battalion. vSomething 
 might be done, 1 think ; they would be immediately 
 under the eye of the adjutant, whose duty it would bo 
 to drill them during the day. 
 
 4484. A man so drilled and always kept up to the 
 mark would be more qualified to drill recruits than 
 men who were drawn from militia regiments ? — Yes ; 
 but the system at present pursued of drawing the drill 
 instructors from militia regiments is only a provisional 
 
 one ; the paucity of drill instructors to bo obtained 
 from the line is very great indeed, on account of (lie 
 numlier of drill instrnctors that has been sent out to 
 the volunteers in Canada. 
 
 4485. {Major-Gin. Ei/rc.) Your intention, I be- 
 lieve, is to bring forward privates, which plan will a 
 good deal supply tiie present deficiency ? — Yes. 
 
 4486. {Lienf.-Col. liarttelot.) Supposing the plan 
 just referred to were adopted, and that drill instructors 
 were assembled at the headquarters of administrative 
 battalions, you would havo to increase their pay, 
 would you not 'i — No, I do not think it would be ad- 
 visable to increase their pay ; you may increase their 
 allowances. 
 
 4487. I refer more particularly to their lodging- 
 money ? — That might be increased. 
 
 4488. If they were placed under the command of 
 the commanding officers, the oflicers commanding the 
 difterent corps would not be so likely to find ihcni 
 lodgings as if they chose the drill instructors them- 
 selves ? — No. 
 
 4489. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Where a company is 
 20 or 30 miles distant from headquarters, the drill 
 instructors under such an arrangement would have to 
 attend that outlying company whenever it was drilled? 
 — Yes, and I think there would lie an advantage de- 
 rived from changing the drill instructors occasionally. 
 I am of opinion that that would prevent the petting 
 and spoiling of them, which we find by the evidence 
 so often takes place. 
 
 4490. But you must make some allowance to the 
 drill instructors for travelling expenses ? — Yes. 
 
 4491. {Chairman.) We have heard from some of 
 the artillery volunteer officers, that they make their 
 returns to the artillery officers commanding the 
 districts ; will you be good enough to explain why it 
 is that there is that diti'erence lietween the artillery 
 volunteers and the rifle volunteers ? — There arc at 
 present 347 batteries of artillery scattered all round 
 the coasts of Great Britain, and the Secretary of 
 State for War has found it convenient to place these 
 batteries under the inspection of the officers command- 
 ing royal artillery in the districts, because we could 
 not fnrnish a sufficient number of assistant insjieciors 
 of artillery to do the duty, the batteries being so 
 much scattered ; but the reason for making use so 
 largely of the royal artillery officers is on account of 
 the stores and guns, which are furnished to the 
 volunteer batteries, remaining still in the charge of 
 the royal artillery. The su])erintendence of the royal 
 artillery officers is limited only to the disposal of those 
 stores, and to the practice with the guns ; the returns 
 of the practice only are furnished by the officer 
 commanding the volunteer artillery corps to the officer 
 commanding the royal artillery in the district ; but 
 they eventually reach this oflice. 
 
 4492. Docs i\iG War Office appoint officers to in- 
 spect the artillery volunteer corps ? — The Secretary 
 of State requests the commander-in-chief to appoint 
 royal artillery officers to inspect certain corps in 
 certain districts, but they have only to inspect the gun 
 practice in those corps, and not in any other respect ; 
 in all other respects they are under this oflice as other 
 volunteer corps are. 
 
 4493. ( Viscount Hardinge.) The returns go to the 
 Horse Guards, do they not ? — The returns of the 
 artillery practice are transmitted through the Ilorsu 
 Guards to this office. 
 
 4494. And the returns also of the numlier of days' 
 drill ? — No, that is essentially a volunteer return, but 
 every return of artlllcrypractice naturally goes through 
 the officers commanding the artillery in the districts, 
 because the stores are in their charge. 
 
 4495. {Lord Elcho.) Many of the guns are in 
 Government batteries, are' they not ? — Yes, they arc 
 arms which requh-e special inspection by artillery 
 officers. 
 
 4496. {Major Harcourt.) Were not great expenses 
 incurred by persons travelling about the country to 
 in.spect them ? — Yes, 
 
 Co 
 
 Col. ^Y. M. s. 
 
 Macmurito, 
 C.B. 
 
 15 .Tuly 1862.
 
 194 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 Col W. M. S. 
 
 Macmiirdo, 
 
 C.B. 
 
 15 July 1S62. 
 
 4497. And was it not found less expensive to em- 
 ploy district inspectors ? — Yes. 
 
 4498. With regard to the returns sent in by the 
 lutillery volunteers, I believe the payments, or rather 
 the repayments, are all sent to the officer commanding 
 the district ? — Yes. 
 
 4499. All the accounts are passed through him ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4500. An officer of the artillery volunteers is not 
 permitted to send his accounts to this office, but he is 
 told to send them to the officer commanding in the 
 district ? — Yes, because the stores are in his charge. 
 
 4501. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Is it not the fact that 
 the assistant inspectors have so much work to do that 
 they cannot mspect all the companies in their dis- 
 tricts ? — Yes. 
 
 4502. Do you see your way to remedying that state 
 of things ? — I believe from the corps being formed 
 into administrative battalions so much more now 
 than at first that the inspections will be more easily 
 carried out from year to year than they have been. 
 
 4503. Do you see any reason why field officers of 
 the line should not be occasionally employed in in- 
 specting volunteer corps as they do the militia .and 
 yeomanry ? — No ; I see no reason against it ; and we 
 have employed them. 
 
 4504. To whom do they report under those cir- 
 cumstances ? — They report direct to this office. 
 
 4505. And also as to the militia ? — Yes. 
 
 4506. {Sir A. Ca?npbelL) I presume that the duty 
 of a field officer of the regular army so employed 
 would be the same as that of an assistant inspector ? 
 — Yes ; he is given a form of confidential report, 
 which he is required to fill in. 
 
 4507. {Major Harcourt.) An adjutant of Devon- 
 shire artillery stated to the Commission that his men 
 were not allowed to practise from 68-pounder guns, 
 although they were very near at hand. I understood 
 you to say that an order was issuc?d from this office 
 that the artillery officers commanding in the districts 
 should restrict the artillery volunteers as much as 
 possible to guns of the lowest calibre, on account of 
 their burning only a small quantity of powder ? — 
 Yes ; the ammunition is very expensive for the larger 
 guns. 
 
 4508. I suppose that the view taken by the War 
 Office is that the artillery volunteers should be made 
 practically acquainted with the calibres which they 
 would be likely to work in a time of war ? — The Sec- 
 retary of State would be prepared to consider any 
 recommendation coming from the Eoyal Artillery 
 officers commanding districts as to the calibre of guns 
 with which the volunteers should practice. 
 
 4509. And against that, of course, would not be set 
 the expense of a few pounds of jiowder ? — I do not 
 know. 
 
 4510. Practically that question is very much left 
 to the discretion of the officers commanding the 
 artillery districts ? — Yes. 
 
 4511. When you asked Colonel Harman, one of 
 the inspectors, the other day, whether he could speak 
 to the artiOery volunteers as far as their arms and 
 accoutrements were concerned on parade, you did not 
 me.an, I suppose, that he had anything officially to do 
 with the artillery volunteers as inspector ? — llis first 
 duty is to inspect the rifle volunteers, but the artillery 
 volunteers ought, if he has time, to come under his 
 inspection also ; that is, with regard to their general 
 state, not as to their artillery practice, but the state of 
 the nmster rolls, the establishment and the state of 
 efficiency of the corps in company drill, and the arms. 
 
 4512. Is not that now done by an assistant- 
 inspector of royal artillery? — Generally in their 
 observations they make a note of the appearance of 
 the corps. 
 
 4513. {Viscount Hardinge.) The volunteers gene- 
 rally are, in your opinion, very nmch improved since 
 last year ? — Yes ; very much improved indeed since 
 last year. 
 
 4514. So that a report made of the inspection of 
 last year would hardly apply to the present state of 
 
 the volunteer force ? — No ; I should hope that they 
 have reported this year an increase in efficiency. 
 
 4515. Therefore the only inspector of artillery who 
 has given evidence before this Commission can liardly 
 have given a fair account of the present efficiency of 
 the artillery volunteers from his own personal know- 
 ledge, not having been employed since last year ? — 
 That is quite possible. 
 
 4516. {Lord Elcho.) With regard to brigades, you 
 said that you did not think it was desirable that the 
 recruiting should be limited to certain districts, because 
 many persons, if their business was in one part of Lon- 
 don, live out in the country ; irrespectively of limiting 
 men to a certain district, do you think it advisable 
 that London should be mapped out into brigade 
 districts, I mean for command ? — I do not think it 
 would be advantageous. 
 
 4517. You have been asked some questions as to 
 effectives ; what in your opinion, according to the Act 
 of Parliament, is the proper definition of the word 
 " effiictive ; " how can a commanding officer return 
 his " efiectives " ? — There was a question put to the 
 law officers lately, as to how many drills would con- 
 stitute an effective in point of law ; and the answer 
 was 18, and that the man should also have attended 
 the annual inspection of the corps. 
 
 4518. So that supposing the annual inspection was 
 the 19th drill, those men who had attended 18 ihiUs, 
 but who were not present at that inspection, could not 
 be returned as effectives ? — No. 
 
 4519. Then it must be 18 drills jslus the in- 
 spection ? — Yes. 
 
 4520. What description of drills should they be ? — 
 That depends upon the Secretary of State's regula- 
 tions. The distribution of drills is laid down in the 
 60th article of the regulations in these terms : — 
 " The authorized drills, in virtue of which the 
 " enrolled member is reckoned as effective, need not 
 " take place on consecutive days. One half of them 
 " must be musters of the whole corps ; the remaiu- 
 " ing half may consist, in the case of a corps of more 
 '■ than one troop or company, of troop or company 
 " drill, or instruction in musketry, ordered by the 
 " commanding officer, under the command of one of 
 " the company officers ; and in the case of the 
 " scattered rural corps, the squad drills ordered by 
 " the commanding oiiicer, and attended by the officers 
 " of the corps, provided that authority for such an 
 " arrangement has been previously obtained from the 
 " lord lieutenant of the county, who should be 
 " guided in granting it by the local difficulties 
 " experienced by the volunteers in assembling for 
 " di'ill, and in the case of the artillery corps of any 
 " gun drill ordered by the commanding officer, and 
 " attended by the officers of the corps. In all these 
 " cases, the volunteers must be properly armed and 
 " accoutred." 
 
 4521. So that with reference to the consolidated 
 battalions in towns, according to the law, 18 drills 
 are required ; one half of them may be simply turning 
 out to drill, no matter in what form, provided the 
 men are under the officers, so that one-half or nine of 
 those drills may consist in the men coming out and 
 beginning their setting up, the squad drill counting 
 as one ; but the other nine drills must be drills of the 
 whole corps? — Yes. 
 
 4522. From your knowledge of the degree of 
 efficiency which the volunteers have attained, and 
 from your knowledge of the aptitude which they show 
 in acquu'ing a knowledge of their drill, do you think 
 that the present statutory number of drills, divided as 
 we have just supposed, could be diminished without 
 prejudice to the Ibrce, in the cases of men who have 
 been trained, and have once been passed as efficient ? 
 — Yes ; I think that nine drills would in such cases 
 be sufficient for a man who had already passed under 
 the adjutant's observation, three of them to be 
 elementary or company drills, and six of them battalion 
 drills. 
 
 4523. Do you think that this would be a reasonable 
 proposal, that there should be a certain number of
 
 TO INQUIBE INTO THE CONDITrON OF THE VOLUNTEER FOBCE TO GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 195 
 
 setting up drills, 3, 4, 5, or 6, every year, through 
 which every man should pass ; liut if a volunteer had 
 passed through them he might at onee be passed into 
 battalion drill, and then fix the number of those 
 battalion drills at whatever figure might bo thought 
 nceessary ? — You allude, I ]>resumc, to efficient 
 men ? 
 
 4524. Yes ; I allude to men who are efficient ? — I 
 conceive that three elenientarj' drills would lie 
 enough, and six battalion drills. 
 
 4.325. Exclusive of bri^rade drills and field days ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4526. Do you lay great stress upon every volunteer 
 annually passing through a course of setting-up 
 drills ? — ^Yes ; those three drills which I liave already 
 mentioned. 
 
 4527. Do you think it desirable that a uniform 
 system as to those setting up drills should exist 
 throughout the volunteer force ; for example, sup- 
 pose that the commander of one of the corps obliged 
 every man in his corps to go through at a certain 
 period of the year those setting up drills, and as- 
 suming that the principle was sound, should j'ou 
 think it advisable that th.it should be extended in 
 order that comparisons might not be drawn, and that 
 a man might not say, " You force me to do this, 
 " whereas in such and such a regiment it is not done, 
 " and therefore why should I do it ?" — I do not think 
 that the system of drill ought to be made more com- 
 jmlsory than the present regulations require. 
 
 4528. Would it be advisable that there should be 
 a sort of understanding that every volunteer should 
 go through those setting up drills and should pass 
 through a certain examination, after which he should 
 be entitled .it once to step into a battalion and then 
 pass through a smaller number of drills ? — Yes. 
 
 4529. At the present time, according to the Act of 
 Parliament, you may have efficiency in a man without 
 his being effective ? — Yes. 
 
 4530. Is not that an anomalous state of things 
 which you think ought to cease ? — 1 know that many 
 of the uon-effijctive membei-s are the best soldiers. 
 
 4531. Do you not think that the Government 
 should endeavour to find out the efficiency of a man 
 irrespectively of •\\'hether he was effective according 
 to the meaning of the statute ? — Certainly, and there- 
 fore a test of efficiency would be advisable. 
 
 4532. Have you at all considered what would be 
 the most advisable test of efficiency ? — We base our 
 estimate of the efficiency of the volunteer force very 
 much upon the artillery and musketry instruction, and 
 upon the knowledge on the part of the members of 
 company and battalion drill, a certain amount of which 
 we think is sufficient. 
 
 4533. Supposing there was any recommendation 
 from this Commission, or supposing the Government 
 thought it well to propose certain grants or certain as- 
 sistance based upon a certain condition, that condition 
 being efficiency, irrespective of the statutory number 
 of drills, have you considered at all what test you would 
 apply in that case ? — No, I have not ; but I think it 
 would be very easy to do so. 
 
 4534. You cannot suggest .anything at the present 
 moment ? — No, it requires a little reflection, looking 
 at the various classes of which the volunteer force is 
 composed ; you must consider all those classes, and 
 all the various circumstances connected with them. 
 
 4535. You apprehend that there will be no diffi- 
 culty in finding and applying such a test ? — I think 
 there would be none, and I think it is very desiralile. 
 
 4536. You think that you could apply such a test 
 as would, irrespectively of the statutory uiunlier of 
 drills, give security to the Government that the public 
 money was not w.asted on inefficiency ? — Yes. 
 
 4537. {Earl of Ducic.) You think you could apply a 
 more practical test than is a|)iilied at present ? — Yes. 
 
 4538. (Lord Oversfnnr.) Do yon think that the 
 test of efficiency to which you refer could be such as 
 would not only be sufficient to satisfy your own 
 irresponsilile judgment, but also be such that you 
 could found upon it a public measure that you could 
 
 defend and justify ? — Yes; and that test should also 
 bo the certificate of the officer commanding, signed by 
 the adjutant, to the effect that the member had passed 
 thriiugh a certain course of drill ; and upon that alone 
 should the aid be given if aid is to be given at all. 
 
 4539. Does not that answer proceed upon the 
 assumption that the test of efficiency after all must 
 be the having passed through a certain number of 
 drills, or process of disci]iline, and not the fact of a 
 man's actual competency as the result ? — No, 1 think 
 not ; I think that thi^ cerlificat(^ ought to be given 
 with reference to the man's efficiency, as well as to 
 the nund)er of drills he had passed through. 
 
 4540. I thought your |)receding answer was that 
 there must be a certificate from the officer comnuind- 
 ing, signed by tlu^ adjutant, as to the man in question 
 having passed through .a certain number of drills ? — 1 
 meant a certificate that he had passed through a cer- 
 tain number of drills with a satisfactory result. 
 
 4541. The object of the question, .as I understood 
 it, was to ascertain whether you might not arrive at 
 a test of efficiency iu the volunteer witliout a certi- 
 ficate of his having gone through a certain number of 
 drills, that is without reference to the jirocess by 
 which the efficiency was acconijilished, and that you 
 should direct your attention in giving your certificate 
 solely to the result, that is the fact of the efficiency ? 
 — According to the present law a man is considered 
 effective who has passed through a cei-tain number 
 of drills ; but it does not follow that the man who 
 has passed through a certain number of drills is effi- 
 cient, and I therefore recommend that there should 
 be a test of efficiency given in the form of a certificate, 
 and signed by the commanding officer through the 
 adjutant, that a man has passed through a certain 
 number of drills as required by law satisfactorily, and 
 that he is an efficient volunteer. 
 
 4542. Your test of efficiency, therefore, would bo 
 a double certificate, certifying to the fact of his 
 having gone through certain forms, and the further 
 fact that having passed through those certain forms 
 the desired result li.ad been accomplished ? — Yes ; 
 if the Government contempl.ate giving further aid to 
 the volunteers it must be grounded on the efficiency 
 of the volunteers. The other return as to making a 
 volunteer effective should merely relieve him from 
 being balloted for the militia. 
 
 4543. The final test of efliciency must be the 
 private judgment of the certifying officer as to the 
 qualifications of the man in question ? — Yes; he should 
 be responsible. 
 
 4544. {Lord Elcho.) After the examination ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4545. You might assume such a case as this, that 
 a man had attended 28 drills instead of 18, ami yet 
 had not a certificate ? — Yes. 
 
 4546. On the other hand he miglit olitain a certifi- 
 cate after attending only six drills ? — I do not know 
 that, but that a man had passed through the pre- 
 scribed number of drills satisfactorily. 
 
 4547. {Lord Ovcrstonc.') Your certificate, if I 
 understand it, would be strictly analogous to a uni- 
 versity degree, in which it is required that you should 
 luive resided a certain number of terms, and have at- 
 tended a certain number of lectures, but in addition to 
 that, you must h.avegone through a direct person.al ex- 
 .amination, to show that the restdt of those attendances 
 had produced a knowledge of the subjects which you 
 h.ad been inquiring into ? — Yes. 
 
 4548. {Lord LIrfio.) What I gathered from you 
 was this, that under the present system you may find 
 a man efficient without being effective, that there are 
 many who attend the 18 drills, but who do not beromc 
 efficient, while other men in nine drills would become 
 efficient, and therefore it was advisable to ajiply a 
 test, in order that a man might pass at once. In that 
 case a man would not have to go tlirough 18 drills, 
 but receive his certificate of I'fficiency at once ? — Yes. 
 I said that nine drills would be sufficient, three of 
 them to be elementary, or conqiany drills, and six 
 battalion drills; but I understood you to ask me 
 
 cC 2 
 
 Col. W. M. S. 
 
 Macmurdo, 
 
 C.B. 
 
 !.■) July 1862.
 
 LOG 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 whether the number of the drills required by law 
 might not be reasonably reduced. I said that I 
 thought thc}^ might be reduced to nine, and in that 
 case it would bring the two together. 
 
 4549. [Sir A. Campbell.) How would you bring 
 this new system of testing efficiency by the results 
 under the present Act ? — The grant would be given 
 by the Act of Parliament, and it would be given 
 under certain conditions. 
 
 4550. You contemplate a new legislative enact- 
 ment to enable this test to be applied ? — Yes ; if a 
 grant is made it ought to be given under certain 
 conditions. 
 
 4551. ( Viscount Hardinge.) But they ought to bo 
 more stringent, ought they not, than they are now ? 
 — Yes, in point of efficiency. 1 do not mean dis- 
 cipline. 
 
 4552. (.5^(> A. Cnmphcll.) Article 60 states that 
 one half of the drills for the effective members must 
 be musters of the whole corps, from what part of the 
 Act of Parliament does that come ? — I think that 
 the Act of Parliament leaves a discretion to the 
 Secretary of State as to the distribution of the drills, 
 and what they are to be. 
 
 4553. (Chairman^ We have been speaking of the 
 efficiency of the men, is there any mode that you can 
 suggest of testing the efficiency of the sulmltern 
 officers and non-commissioned officers of volunteer 
 corps ? — I do not think it desirable to have any test 
 of that kind. The volunteer officers are of course 
 much more difficult to form than the men, and there 
 is no doubt that in the earlier stages of this move- 
 ment our great weakness was the inefficiencj^ of the 
 officers, but I have been very much satisfied lately 
 by seeing the very marked improvement that has 
 taken place in the efficiency of the officers, and I 
 really believe that as time goes on the officers will 
 improve themselves and become efficient in the dis- 
 charge of their several duties. 
 
 4554. Does that observation apply also to the non- 
 commissioned officers ? — Very much so. I have been 
 lately greatly pleased at seeing both officers and non- 
 commissioned officers acting with a knowledge of 
 their duties far beyond what I expected to see. 
 
 4555. {Lord Elchol) Would there be any objection 
 to making every officer, whether he commands a 
 battalion or a company, put his battalion or his com- 
 pany through battalion or company movements before 
 the inspecting officer. I do not mean a book 
 examination ? — It would be very desirable indeed to 
 do so ; but I would not press it, because we know 
 very well that many of the volunteer officers are 
 useful to tlie movement in bringing their services to 
 bear, and they may not be exactly of the stuff out of 
 which you could e^■er form good officers in the field ; 
 but at the same time they are of extreme use to the 
 Government in bringing men in, and maintaining 
 them in a state of efficiency in other ways. I think 
 it would be undesirable to press upon those men 
 duties that thej' could not perform, and thus get rid 
 of them and the )nen too. 
 
 4556. Do you think that they would object to it ? 
 — I am sure that they would in many cases. 
 
 4557. Have you any doubt that there are many 
 men in the rural districts in that position, possessing 
 local influence ? — No. 
 
 4558. Is it not likewise the case that nothing tends 
 so much to keep up a battalion as the conviction on 
 the part of the men that their officer knows his duty ? 
 — Yes, the influence jjossessed by a good officer o^cr 
 his men is very great. 
 
 4559. And the attendance at drill is, perhaps, 
 worse in those companies where they are the worst 
 officered ? — Yes, frequently. 
 
 4560. Setting one against the other, do you not 
 think that a practical examination as to a man's 
 knowledge of his duties in the field would rather 
 tend to do good than harm in keeping the men 
 together ? — I think it would be inexpedient to establish 
 an arbitrary test to officers at present. It is inconsistent 
 with the principles of the volunteer force, but if any 
 
 circumstance should arise, such as a war, to require a 
 special looking into the condition and state of efficiency 
 of the ofHcers, I have no doubt that a thorough sifting 
 of such men as were incapable would then take place. 
 
 4561. Would it not be a great help to the com- 
 manding officer of a battalion who had inefficient 
 officers, and who perhaps did not attend, to have .some 
 such power as that ? — When an officer is non-effective 
 he is removed according to the present system. 
 
 4562. You may have an officer effective as to his 
 attendance at drill, but who is thoroughly ineffi- 
 cient ? — You must deal leniently with them, and see 
 what time will produce. I have seen very marked 
 improvements in officers who I did not expect would 
 turn out well ; and really I think that we ought not 
 to establish any arbitrary rules of that kind ; 1 think 
 it would tend much to damage the service. When 
 an officer is jironounced to be thoroughly inefficient it 
 is time then for the lord lieutenant to place the cir- 
 cumstances before the Secretary of State for War, 
 and then that officer may be induced to resign his 
 commission. 
 
 4563. On account of his inefficiency ? — Yes ; he 
 might be induced to resign, but even in the army it is 
 not often possible to get rid of inefficient officers. 
 
 4564. (Earl of Ducic.) Your opinion is that officers 
 in rural districts, and where they are the only avail- 
 able officers, if called upon to perform duties for 
 which they were not competent might resign, and 
 the corps might fall to pieces ? — Yes. 
 
 4565. In town districts, possibly, such a test might 
 be enforced, as there would be plenty of others to take 
 their places ? — Possibly. 
 
 4566. ( Viscoi/tit Hardinge.) If so important an 
 improvement has taken place in the efficiency of 
 the subaltern and company officers as you have 
 described, why do you think that they would object, 
 generally speaking, to such a test in the field as 
 Lord Elcho has sketched out ? — I think that those 
 officers commanding rural companies, to whom Lord 
 Ducie has just referred, would be the first to object, 
 for they have not the means of acquiring a knowledge 
 of their duties that the officers in town corps have. 
 
 4567. They have as good an opportunity of learn- 
 ing their duties as an officer commanding an inde- 
 pendent company, have they not ? — Yes. 
 
 4568. (Chairman.) Are you not aware that the 
 oflicers commanding squadrons and troops of yeo- 
 manry are called out and made to put the squadron 
 and troop through certain movements in order to 
 prove that they are up to their duty ? — Yes, and we 
 do so frequently in the volunteer service at inspec- 
 tions, but if an officer is not able to put his company 
 through their work there is no innnediate pressure 
 put upon him as a necessary consequence of his 
 inefficiency ; he is cautioned to make himself more 
 acquainted with his duties, and if, after a time, the 
 lord lieutenant pronounces him to be inefficient, then 
 the Secretary of State would reconnnend him to re- 
 sign, but I do not think that any arbitrary pressure 
 should be put upon him at first. 
 
 4569. {Sir G. A. Wcthcrall.) What is the strength 
 of the rifle volunteer force at present ? — The return 
 to the Lst of April of the present year is now at the 
 printer's, but on the 1st of August 1861 there were 
 133,918 rifles. 
 
 4570. How many of those, do you suppose, have 
 gone through a course of rifle instruction, that is, 
 bona fide firing at the target ? — I think about two- 
 thirds of them. I questioned an officer connnanding 
 a corps in Edinburgh the other day as to tlie number 
 of men who had gone through that course of instruc- 
 tion, and he said that 1,000 men had passed through it. 
 
 4571. It strikes mo that the masses do not fire at 
 all ? — The number is increasing. 
 
 4572. {Lord Elcho.') With regard to the adminis- 
 trative battalions, you have said as to giving further 
 power to the officer commanding the battalion that, 
 although you did not recommend, you did not object 
 to giving an increase of power ; what increase of
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF TIIK VOLTINTEKR FORf'E IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 197 
 
 power ivould you not object to ? — I liavc no proposal 
 to make. 
 
 4573. Do you tliink, supposing what lias been 
 suggested was carried into etfect, namely, tliat tlieso 
 administrative battalions had an administrative staif 
 attached to the head([uarters, and not as now at- 
 tached to the diflerent local companies, that there 
 would be any danger of insubordination or of dis- 
 respect towards the captain of a local company on 
 the part of the drill instructor ? — I lliink not ; the 
 captain would still be his superior oilicer and have 
 power to put him under arrest and report him to the 
 officer commanding the battalion, who would tako 
 steps to withdraw him. 
 
 4574. {Lord Overstone.) What is the total number 
 of the volunteers at the present time ? — 162,700. 
 
 4575. What number of those are returned as effec- 
 tives ?— ] 42,000. 
 
 4576. Can you give any estimate of the pecuniary 
 charge annually incurred liy the Government in con- 
 nexion with the volunteer force ? — 160,000/. 
 
 4577. Do you think that the pecuniary charge now 
 incurred by the Government annually is about 1/. per 
 head ? — .As nearly as possible. 
 
 4578. For the total number, not for effectives only ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4579. {Chairman.) Is that exclusive of the cost 
 of arms ? — It includes the cost' of ammunition ; but 
 not tlie cost of arms. 
 
 4580. {Lord Oversfone.) Do you think tliat the 
 items not included in that estimate are of serious 
 amount ? — If the arms are not included that is of 
 course a very serious amount. 
 
 4581. {Major Harrottrt.) When you stated that 
 the artillery voluuteei's were liable to inspection by 
 the War Office inspector as well as the Horse Guards 
 inspector in the course of a year, which of those 
 inspections is the one which is made a test of a man's 
 efficiency ? — The artillery inspection. Lord Over- 
 stone has several times asked whether certain batta- 
 lions were ready to go into the field at once ; and if I 
 may be permitted I think it woidd be as well to ex- 
 plain that the object of the volunteer service does 
 not require that the volunteer corps should be pre- 
 pared to take the field at once ; the object is that 
 they should be prepared at a time of danger, and I 
 am of opinion that there would be time before a war 
 actually broke out to render the volunteer corps 
 efficient for the field. With regard to equijiment, I 
 should exj)laiu also that the tents and field equip- 
 ments of that kind are not usually furnished even to 
 the regular troops, until the moment when they are 
 required for the field. 
 
 4582. {Lord Ovcrstone.) It is your opinion that 
 the volunteer force, although not ready in the strict 
 sense of the word for immediate and efficient action 
 in the field, are in an advanced state of efficiency ; 
 and therefore, the time that might be reasonably 
 expected to elapse after serious warning was given, 
 would be sufficient to enable them to render efficient 
 service to the regular army ? — Yes ; and I think it is 
 one of those points that ought to bo understood, tliat 
 time will certainly be given to the volunteers to l)c 
 prepared. It is true that the adviinces of science 
 have tended to make the operations of war more 
 rapid and destructive than formerly ; but at the same 
 time I consider, that although science has overcome 
 the natural obstacles to the invasion of this couiitr}^ 
 human nature has not undergone any change ; and 
 I think that Governments would hesitate before in- 
 curring the risks of such a war as would then take 
 place, and that that hesitation would be just in pro- 
 portion to the rapidity and destructive nature of the 
 means employed on both sides, and therefore that the 
 usual warnings would precede the coming war. 
 
 4583. Setting aside the moral considerations, upon 
 which you rest your anticipation of notice previo'.is 
 to an invasion, do you think that the material con- 
 siderations would oppose certain olistacles to an in- 
 stantaneous invasion ? — If political and moral con- 
 siderations were not sufficient to warn this country 
 
 of its danger, material considerations would certainly Cnl. W. AT. S. 
 not lio wanting. So vast an enterprise as the invasion Macmurdo, 
 of England could not bo undertaken without pre- 
 paralions in provisions, forage, and transport, upon a ,r ■, ■ . ,or.j 
 
 seMe which would leave little doubt as to their oliject. _! ; ."' 
 
 No invader would be justified in speculating upon 
 finding supplies for his army in this country ; he must 
 calculate upon nothing, and be prepared, therefore, to 
 su]iply his army from its own base ; to do this will 
 rcqnirc vast aecnniulations of provisions and forage, 
 and the indications thus attbrded would not be dis- 
 regarded by the Government. 1 repeat that straws, 
 political as well as material, must move before the, 
 storm breaks, and it would be at this juncture that 
 tlu^ volunteers, without causing any disastrous check 
 to the commercial s)'stem of the country, would train 
 in earnest in their own localities, and be equipped for 
 the iield. 
 
 4584. Would it not be im])ossilile for any foreign 
 power, however highly organized its army might be, 
 at once, and without any warning, and without tin; 
 attention of the country being called to it, to land a 
 very large force on the shores of this country ? — That 
 is my opinion. 
 
 4585. It is your opinion, founded upon your know- 
 ledge of the present eondition of the volunteer force, 
 that that warning which circumstances would render 
 inevitable would be sufficient to correct what might 
 otherwise be deficient in the condition of the volunteer 
 force ? — Yes. The accoutrements are veiy generally 
 defective, and ought to be changed as soon as possible. 
 I have scarcely seen one cor])s that has got aceoulre- 
 ments fit to carry ammunition in the field, and I 
 believe that if they took the field those accoutrements 
 must be changed. They will also require great coats, 
 knapsacks, and blankets. I have made inquiries 
 upon this subject, and if you will allow me I will 
 read what has been communicated to me from the 
 store department in answer to my inquiries. " We 
 " are required to keep a store of 100,000 great 
 " coats and 40,000 knapsacks, but in the event oi' an 
 " emergency, these would be required for the army 
 " and militia. The difficulty in procuring a largo 
 " (luantity of great coats is, that no cloth can bo 
 " manufactured in less than six weeks, but if we take 
 " different patterns of cloth (adhering to one colour), 
 " I have no doubt that from 100,000 to 150,000 yards 
 " of cloth conld be brought u|) within a week in the 
 " cloth districts, which would be sufficient ibr about 
 " 40,000 great coats. Within two months from the 
 " date of order, we could get enough cloth to make 
 " 500,000 great coats. With regard to the making 
 " of the coats, we could make about 40,000 a week. I 
 " think, therefore, that upon an emergency we conld 
 " get 100,000 great coats made in two months, 40,000 
 " of which would be delivered within one month of 
 " date of order, and the remainder in weekly deli- 
 " veries ; after the first two months we would supply 
 " 40,000 a week in regular deliveries, and as we 
 " should be in full working order, I have no doubt 
 " we could do more. During the Crimean war 
 " almost all the great coats for the French army were 
 " made in London, and this was before the sewing 
 " machines were usetl in making army (dothiiig ; with 
 " regard to the knapsacks, the difficulty is in Iho 
 " prel)aration of the cloth, which takes at least two 
 " months to dry, .and as skilled labour is ivcpiired to 
 " manufacture these articles, I much doubt if 100,000 
 " could bo procured in less than six mouths, but 1 
 " think there would be no difficulty in getting a sub- 
 " stitute, which would take less time to make. We 
 " had very great difficulty in procuring knapsacks 
 " during the Crimean war, and had to purchase huge 
 " quantities on the continent." I think that this is a 
 very important question, considering the difficulty of 
 ])rocuring knajisacks in the event of a war, and that 
 we should jirovide the volunteeis now witli kna])- 
 sacks ; but such a provision would entail, I apprehend, 
 the appointment of quartermasters to corps ol' volun- 
 teers. 
 
 4586. {Lord Elcho.) Is it advisable in your opinion 
 
 C c 3
 
 198 
 
 MINUTES OF EVTDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COJDUSSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 to clothe all the volunteers in one coloured uniform ? 
 _No. 
 
 4587. Do you think it is possible ? — No ; the 
 volunteers consist of such a variety of classes that 
 they would not submit to one colour. 
 
 4588. You would recommend an adherence to the 
 present arrangement, which is four colours, red, dark 
 green, Governmeut grey, and blue ? — Yes ; recom- 
 luending to the lord lieutenants that the corps in their 
 counties should be clothed in one uniform. 
 
 4589. As has already been done in StaflPordshire ? 
 — Yes ; and in Surrey, Hampshire, and several other 
 counties. 
 
 4590. [Viscoicnt Hardin ge.) "What diificulty would 
 there be in the Government keeping the requisite 
 number of great coats and knapsacks in store ? — 
 Because they are perishable. 
 
 4591. But if they keep in the store department 
 100,000, there is no reason why they should not 
 keep another 100,000 for volunteers ? — That depends 
 upon the annual consumption. 
 
 4592. {Lord Elcho.) Do you think it advisable 
 that all the adjutants, and the drill instructors, and 
 the staff of the volunteer corps should have staff 
 uniforms, and that they should not wear the uniform 
 of their corps ? — Yes ; I think that some uniform 
 should be fixed for them. 
 
 4593. {Chairman.) What is your opinion of the 
 present state of the volunteer force as regards its 
 efficiency ? — With reference to the objects for which 
 the force is raised, I consider it to be in a satisfactory 
 state of efficiency. But the term has a very wide 
 signifieation when used in a military sense, and is 
 liable to misconstruction when applied to volunteers. 
 A regiment of the line is known to be efficient when 
 the inspecting general is satisfied that every man is 
 on parade or is otherwise accounted for ; that the men 
 composing the regiment are physically fit to serve in 
 any climate, and to carry between 60 and 70 pounds 
 weight under any circumstances of service ; that 
 officers, non-commissioned officers, and men are per- 
 fectly armed, equipped, and trained to undertake any 
 service in any quarter of the globe at an hour's notice, 
 and that the system of interior economy in the regi- 
 ment is perfect in all its branches. But with volun- 
 teers the standard of efficiency is, in my opinion, alto- 
 gether different. 1st, the objects of the force are 
 limited to service at home, and then only in the event 
 of invasion ; 2nd, the constitution of the force is con- 
 sequently regulated by these special objects of service, 
 hence it is composed of all classes of the community, 
 the majority of whose occupations do not admit them 
 to undergo more than a partial training during peace. 
 Thus corps arrive at various degrees of efficiency 
 according to their circumstances, and some corps are 
 prevented by local and temporary causes from be- 
 coming as efficient as others possessing superior advan- 
 tages. But without reckoning much upon the actual 
 present efficiency'of a portion of the force, a most im- 
 portant step has been taken in the establishment of 
 cadres upon which the population of the country can 
 be organized for its defence in the time of danger. It 
 appears to me as if the people are gradually pre- 
 paring themselves for this contingency. Thousands, 
 after passing through a course of drill have left their 
 corps and have been succeeded by others in increasing 
 numbers, while tens of thousands habitually attend 
 every muster of volunteers as spectators. The un- 
 flagging interest exhibited by the latter in all the 
 proceedings of the volunteers is remarkable, and I 
 have often been made aware, by casual remarks in 
 the crowd, that the people are insensibly acquiring a 
 knowledge of military exercises, which the increasing 
 use of the rifle throughout the country will enable 
 them to turn to good account if theu- services as 
 volunteers are hereafter required. The number at 
 the inspection of a corps generally falls far short of 
 its enrolled strength ; an inspecting officer must 
 therefore exercise his judgment informing his opinion 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 of those who arc absent by the progress in drill exhi- 
 bited by those who are present, and must accustom 
 himself in estimating what the real value of the corps 
 might be in case of invasion, by the rapid progress 
 which it has made under many disadvantages in time 
 of peace. Generally speaking — from this point of 
 view — I estimate the efficiency of the whole volun- 
 teer force — that is to say, not so much by its actual 
 state as by what it is capable of becoming at very 
 short notice. But I should not be doing justice to 
 the volunteers if I did not place on record that a 
 very considerable portion of the force is already in 
 an advanced state of efficiency in all that is most 
 essential for the objects of its service. There are 
 many corps at present which in point of numbers, 
 drill, and the use of the rifle, may be esteemed 
 at once and in every respect admirable troops. 
 About 48,000, or more than a third of the rifle 
 volunteer force, are already organized in large corps or 
 consolidated battalions, and would require little more 
 to fit them to take their place in a line of battle. I have 
 had opportunities of exercising many of these corps 
 in brigade movements, under circumstances sufficiently 
 trying to young troops, such as darkness and diffi- 
 cult ground for manoeuvring upon, and I have 
 generally found them perfectly steady and manageable ; 
 and I may add that His Royal Highness the General 
 Commanding-in-Chief was pleased to express to me 
 his satisfaction at the progress made by the volunteers 
 generally who were manojuvred lately at Wimbledon 
 in considerable bodies and over very intricate ground. 
 The remainder, or about 85,000, are in corps com- 
 posed of one, two, or three companies each, and are, 
 generally speaking, scattered throughout the rural 
 districts. For the most part, these are formed into 
 provisional or administrative battalions under field 
 officers as already described, and although they all 
 labour more or less under various disadvantages the 
 proficiency in drill of the volunteers composing these 
 small corps is generally speaking and all things con- 
 sidered — satisfactory ; some indeed, are really good, 
 and may soon be dejiended on as so many nuclei for 
 future expansion. The state of efficiency of the 
 artillery volunteers is in most cases highly satisfac- 
 tory, and the importance of this branch of the service 
 cannot be overrated. Whatever diffei'ence in opinion 
 there may be among military men as regards the real 
 value of the volunteer rifle force, as troops intended 
 for immediate service in the open field ; none ought 
 to exist with reference to the artillery force whose 
 efficiency is more mechanical in its character and cal- 
 culated to be made immediately available in manning 
 the fortifications of the country. The volunteer 
 artillery force numbers 350 batteries, and is composed 
 chiefly of engineers and workers in iron, peculiarly 
 qualified for the service. The efficiency of a force 
 formed out of such materials cannot therefore be a 
 matter of doubt. For the same reasons the engineer 
 volunteer corps are of extreme importance to the 
 country, and the progress made in their efficiency is 
 quite satisfactory. It would not be in the performance 
 only of the ordinary works of military engineers in 
 the field that the chief importance of the volunteer 
 engineers would be found during an invasion of this 
 country. A glance at the railway map shows that, 
 unlike any other country, a war in England would be 
 carried on principally upon railwaj's, and that even a 
 field of battle would be considered as ill-chosen that 
 had not several lines converging upon it. To render, 
 therefore, these railw.ays completely available for the 
 operations of an army in the field, a vast number of 
 engineers would be required in the construction of 
 temporary platforms alone at points where none now 
 exist, and the class of men which compose the present 
 force of volunteer engineers, and the knowledge 
 which they display in their duties, make me believe 
 that they would in the event of invasion consti- 
 tute a valuable aid to the engineers of the reguhu- 
 army.
 
 TO INQITIRE INTO THE CONmTION OF THE VOLUNTEER FOTICE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 19!) 
 
 ■ The Earl de Gret and Ripon examined. 
 
 4594. (^Chairman.') "Will you be kind enough, in 
 the first place, to give the Commission some idea ol' 
 the course which has been taken by tlie Government, 
 witli respect to the volunteers ? — You are probably 
 .aware, that in the spring of 1859, the late Govern- 
 ment, when General Peel was Seci-etary for War, 
 put out two circul.ars, the first of which indicated 
 that the Government were re.ady to accept the ser- 
 vices of volunteer corps, offered under the old volun- 
 teer Act, iind the second of which Laid down, in 
 somewhat greater detail, the principles upon which 
 the Government intended to act as to those corps. 
 \\'Tieu the present Government came into office, those 
 wei'e the only two official documents which had been 
 issued to the public upon the subject, although in 
 regard to one or two other points, office decisions had 
 been given. The principle upon which the services 
 of the corps were originally accepted was, that they 
 should occasion no cost whatever to the public; that no 
 pecuniary assistance was to be given to them, but that 
 their services were to be accepted under that Act. 
 It appears to have been the intention of this circular to 
 limit the formation of the corps to companies ; though 
 there is an indication, I believe, in some of the office 
 records, that an organization in counties under field 
 officers might have been contemplated about that 
 time ; but I think the general intention was, that the 
 corps should be formed as separate and independent 
 companies. When the late Lord Herbert became 
 Secretary of State for War, a certain number of 
 corps had already been formed besides those two 
 coi-ps, the 1st Middlesex and the 1st Devonshire, 
 which, as the Commissioners are aware, had been 
 fonned some years previously. At the end of 
 June 1859, when the present Government came 
 into office, there were in existence, including those 
 corps, 13 volunteer corps ; that is to say, 11 corps of 
 one company each had been formed under the new 
 arrangement ; but the public being aware that the ser- 
 vices of the volunteers were requh-ed by the Govern- 
 ment, and that the services of corps of that description 
 would be accepted, we received, as the previous 
 Government had been receiving, numerous applica- 
 tions, increasing almost daily in number, from corps 
 that were being formed under the original circular, the 
 principle then being that no assistance whatever from 
 the Government was to be given to the corps. Lord 
 Herbert took the subject under his consideration, 
 and abiding in the main, in the first instance, by 
 the principles which had been adopted by his pre- 
 decessor in office, he, however, so far departed 
 from them as to indicate his readiness to supply 
 a portion of the rifles requhed for the corps, 25 
 per cent, being the amount originally given. Very 
 shortly after that he also adopted the battalion organi- 
 zation, that being, in certain instances, substituted for 
 the company organization, which had been originally 
 contemplated. Those battalions, however, were to be 
 formed on the principle of what is now called con- 
 solidated b.attalions ; that is to say, that the corps 
 originally formed as one company increasing under 
 the same commanding officer to a gi'eater number 
 of volunteers were allowed to divide themselves into 
 different companies and to form themselves into one 
 consolidated battalion. As time went on it was found 
 that there was considerable practical inconvenience, 
 not only to the volunteers but to the Government 
 itself, arising from the fact that they were not sup- 
 plied with arms. It was found that the great demand 
 that was springing up for arms for the volunteers was 
 creating a very inconvenient competition with the 
 Government, both in London and in Birmingham ; 
 that is, the arms that were purchased by the volun- 
 teers were much less strictly examined, if they 
 were examined at all, and were consequently of an 
 inferior description ; the workmen, therefore, greatly 
 preferred working upon the arms for the volunteers 
 than upon the arms to be supplied to the Government. 
 Partly for that reason and partly for the purpose of 
 
 affording more encouragement to the volunteers, and 
 also from the conviction that it was not altogether 
 sufficient to secure what General Peel originally con- 
 templated, namely, that the bore of (lie rifle should bo 
 The same .as the Govennnent rifle, arul tlic nipph; the 
 same, but that it was desirable that the rifle j)laced iu 
 the hands of the volunteers should be the same as that 
 used in the regular army, so that it might be replaced 
 on an emergency without difficulty, Lord Herbert 
 determined ultimately to supply 100 per ceut. of 
 rifh's to the volunteer corps, entirely superseding 
 the original .arrangement, and giving them assist- 
 ance which originally they had not been entitled to. 
 The matter rested mainly in that position for a 
 considerable time, the corps increasing very rapidly 
 in number, but with the exception of tlie consolidated 
 battalions, which were chiefly formed in towns, they 
 consisted entirely of scattered companies. It was 
 then thought desiralile to take further measures than 
 had been i)re\'iously taken, to make sure that the 
 corps were sufficiently and properly drilled ; it was 
 found that they had not the means of providing them- 
 selves with either adjutants or drill instructors of a 
 satisfactory character, and the first step taken in that 
 direction was to supply the corps with adjutants. Of 
 course as the adjutants could only have been given 
 to battalions, they could only have been supplied to 
 consolidated battalions, if it had not been for the 
 adoption of that organization which has been called 
 the organization of administrative battalions, which 
 was originally devised for the purpose on the one 
 hand of having commanding officers to bring to- 
 gether and to exercise a certain general supervision 
 over the various companies, and on the other hand to 
 enable the Government in the case of those rural 
 companies to supply them with adjutants. When 
 th.at step was taken the Government had supplied 
 rifles, and afterwards a portion of the ammunition, 
 gratuitously, and they had also given paid adjutants 
 to b.att.alions. The only other step with resi)ect to 
 assistance afforded by the Government to the volun- 
 teers which has since been taken, was at the 
 end of the Session of last year ; the Government 
 then took a supplementary estimate for the pur- 
 pose of supplying drill Serjeants, it being found 
 that there was great difficulty in the corps getting 
 them for themselves unless they paid very exor- 
 bitant prices, and after all there was no control 
 over them, as they were not men who were proj)erly 
 under the command of the commanding officers of the 
 volunteer corps, and if not actually soldiers they 
 were not men under martial law. With a view to 
 removing that difficulty, the Government su|iplied 
 the corps with Serjeants, and at the present moment, 
 with regard to Government assistance, we stand in 
 this position : — A volunteer comes forwm'd and offers 
 his services, and provides himself with everyfhing 
 except arms and ammunition, and the persons required 
 for his drill and instruction, and the principle upon 
 which we have limited our assistance up to this time 
 is, I think, a perfectly intelligible one. I do not give 
 any opinion as to whether it is one upon which we 
 can rest ; but it is, at all events, a perfectly intelli- 
 gible one. We gave arms and ammunition because it 
 was desirable .and necessary for their utility in the 
 field that the volunteers shoidd be armed with a 
 weapon similar to that of the regular troops, and 
 because we found that the great dennind for arms on 
 the part of the volunteers actually interfered with our 
 own supply ; we gave them drill Serjeants .and adju- 
 tants, because the Government alone, in fact, had the 
 power of supplying efficient adjutants and drill Ser- 
 jeants, and at the same time keeping them under 
 eflectual control, because, even if it had been possible 
 that the volunteers could have done it, it would have 
 been undesirable that persons coming under the 
 Mutiny Act, and receiving pay, should be dependent 
 on .anyone, except, directly .and immediately, upon the 
 Government. At the present time that is the only 
 
 Cc 4 
 
 Earl Je Grey 
 and Ripon. 
 
 15 July 1862.
 
 200 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTJED 
 
 Earl de Grey 
 and jtiipuH. 
 
 15 July 18C2. 
 
 description of assistance which has been given ; the 
 Government, up to this time, have contemplated that 
 tlie volunteers should in all other respects provide 
 themselves with whatever might he necessary, to 
 maintain their efhciency. That, I think, is the pre- 
 sent position of the matter. 
 
 4595. Have you ever considered whether it was 
 desirable to give a more military character to the 
 force ? — Do you mean as to military discipline ? 
 
 4596. Yes ; jilacing them under military authority? 
 
 I conceive that to be practically impossible, without 
 
 entirely altering the character of the force, and 
 without completely changing the basis upon which it 
 now rests. You are aware that at the present time, 
 until a volunteer is called out for actual service in 
 the cases contemplated by the Act, you have no 
 power of compelling any volunteer to do anything, 
 except such power as you may derive from being 
 able to fine him under the rules of the particular 
 corps ; there is no punishment which you can award 
 to any volunteer officer or man except the punish- 
 ment of dismissal or of censure, except in the single 
 case when corps are actually assembled under arms, 
 when by a clause in the Act of Parliament the com- 
 maudhig otlicer can put any volunteer who miscon- 
 ducts himself under arrest ; but yon could not enforce, 
 as it seems to me, anything beyond that which we 
 have always determined to enforce iu regard to dis- 
 cipline, unless you took power under an Act to 
 punish men by imprisonment or fine or by some other 
 legal means for disobedience, and to compel their 
 attendance. When I say that you cannot do more 
 than we have done hitherto, I would explain that 
 the principle that we have gone upon has been 
 this ; as to volunteers, when not actually assembled 
 under arms, we require no military discipline,^ 
 except an adherence to those general principles of 
 subordination to the Government, and to their own 
 olRcers, and to all those in authority above them, 
 without which it would not be safe or proper that any 
 armed body should exist in the country ; in regard 
 to the force when actually on parade, we have always 
 thought it right to require that they should then, 
 officers and men, strictly obey the orders given to 
 them by their military superiors ; but, except in 
 those two respects, we have no power to enforce any 
 discipline ; and I think it would be impossible so 
 completely to change that state of things as to takeany 
 elfectual power to enforce any more extended disci- 
 pline ; and I certainly think that nothing would be more 
 undesirable than to" pretend to enforce discipline by 
 your regulations which you could not enforce by 
 law. 
 
 4597. You have referred to administrative batta- 
 lions. The power and authority of the command- 
 ing officer of an administrative battalion appears, 
 sometimes, to be hardly sufficient ; he has power, 
 when the liattalion is on parade, the same as any 
 other commanding officer ; but if he visits a com- 
 pany belonging to his battalion to inspect it he 
 appears to "have no power, for iu the case of an 
 officer misconducting himself he can only recom- 
 mend the officer commanding the company to dis- 
 miss him, or visit him with some sort of punish- 
 ment. Do you think it is possible to increase that 
 power ?— I do not think it possible to increase the 
 power without some alteration in the Act of Parlia- 
 ment ; as I have stated before, the organization of 
 the administrative battalions grew up from the cir- 
 cumstances connected with the development of the 
 movement in the country ; we had to deal with sepa- 
 rate companies, each possessing various rights given 
 by Act of Parliament to a corps and to its command- 
 ing officer. We had, in the name of Her INIajesty, 
 accepted the services of those companies as separate 
 corps, and it was not competent to us, after having 
 entered into certain engagements with them, to insist 
 upon any arrangement that was iuconsistent with 
 those engagements, and to deprive them of the posi- 
 tion to which, by the act of the Government, they 
 nad been admitted. Therefore, when we wanted to 
 
 have something more of a united organization in 
 those companies, and to be able to give them adjutants, 
 all we could do was to appoint over them an officer 
 who should have such general powers of inspection 
 aud of command in the field when the companies 
 were called together as were not inconsistent with 
 the power that had been conferred by the Act 
 of Parliament upon each separate corps when its 
 services were accepted. But although I do not think 
 that you could do what I see has been suggested by 
 some of the witnesses, namely, that you could put 
 commanding officers of administrative battalions pre- 
 cisely in the position of commanding officers of 
 yeomanry regiments, yet I think that you might, if 
 j^ou took power to do so by an Act of Parliament, 
 give a somewhat more extended power of command 
 to the commanding officer than he now possesses. The 
 case of the yeomanry is not parallel, because they are 
 called out for eight days ; they are brought together 
 generally in one town, and they are therefore precisely 
 in the position in which a volunteer administrative b.at- 
 talion is when it comes out for drill ; but they are not 
 constantly at drill in their own particular district, with a 
 separate local organization and with a separate fund. I 
 do think it is desirable to give the commanding oihcer 
 of an administrative battalion distinct authority over 
 the captains of the companies under him when he is 
 present at their parades. I see that the question has 
 been raised about the power of ordering of a parade ; 
 the real fact is that nobody can eiiectually order a 
 parade ; that is to say, if the men do not come there 
 is no means of enforcing their attendance, and all that 
 the commanding officer of a battalion could do would be 
 to say to the commanding officers of the companies, I 
 wish to see your company on such and such a day ; but 
 it would be very unwise if he did that without con- 
 sulting the local convenience of the corps. I believe, 
 generally speaking, that nothing of that kind has been 
 thought of ; but that he should have, when tliey are 
 actually under arms, full power to act as commanding 
 officer if that power is wanting, I think is very de- 
 sirable. I think also that a new arrangement as to the 
 drill-serjeants of the administrative battalions might 
 be made with advantage. 
 
 4598. You give an adjutant now to an administra- 
 tive battalion, and he is under the orders of the 
 colonel ? — Yes. 
 
 4599. Would there be any objection to placing the 
 drill-instructors also under his orders ? — I think that, 
 generally speaking, it would be a most desirable ar- 
 rangement, and I have always been of that opinion. 
 It was too late in the last session, when the determi- 
 nation to supply drill-instructors was taken, and a 
 supplemental estimate was voted, to pass an Act to 
 carry out this arrangement, although an Act is neces- 
 sary, as you cannot bring the drill-serjeant under the 
 Mutiuy Act, through the operation of the twenty- 
 first section of the Volunteer Act, without attaching 
 him to a particular volunteer corps ; if there had 
 been time in year I should have thought it most 
 desirable. 
 
 4600. Several of the witnesses who have been ex- 
 amined by the Commission have recommended that 
 there should be one set of rules laid down for the whole 
 force ; do you think that that could be carried out ? — 
 Meaning by one set of rules that which the Act of 
 Parliament intends by the word ? 
 
 4601. Yes ? — I think not ; it would certainly have 
 been impossible under the Act of Parliament. Some 
 opinions have been given that it ought to have been 
 done, but the Act of Parliament gives the initiative as 
 to rules to the corps themselves, and the corps devise 
 their own rules, and submit them to the lord lieutenant, 
 and if he approves of them he submits them to the Gov- 
 ernment, and if they are not disallowed on the part of 
 Her Majesty within a certain time they become actually 
 good rules, and are enforceable by law. Therefore 
 the Government have no power of enforcing rules on 
 anybody, they could only lay down certain general 
 regulations as to the princii)les which they would 
 pei'uiit to be adopted iu those rules. A body of
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN, 
 
 201 
 
 model rules was drawn up, and those model i-ulos 
 have formed the basis of the vast majority of the rules 
 ■\vhicli have been adopted by volunteer eorps sinee 
 they wei'e published, and the principles upon which 
 the rules submitted have been altered in this office 
 are thoroughly well understood in the volunteer 
 branch. They required a good deal of attention and 
 care at first, but the principles are now thoroughly 
 understood, and it is completely a matter of routine. 
 I do not think that it would have been possible or 
 wise to enforce strict uuiformitj', as those rules related 
 so much to the private aftairs of coips when they su])- 
 ported themselves entirely. 
 
 4602. In any amendment of the Volunteer Act, do 
 you think it would be desirable that the rules should 
 be sanctioned by the Secretary of State, and not that 
 the non-disallowance of those rules after they have 
 been laid before him for a given number of days 
 should be in effect a legal sanction of the rules, it 
 being so difficult to prove before a magistrate, for 
 example, that those rules had been a given number of 
 days before the Secretary of State ; whereas, if ho 
 was called upon to approve of them, his signature 
 would be sufficient evidence of the rules having been 
 sanctioned by him ? — I think that theoretically it 
 might be a better arrangement ; but I do not think 
 that any inconvenience has arisen in practice, and 
 upon the very ground that 3'ou have just mentioned, 
 that it is so difficult to prove that the rules have not 
 been disallowed. Indeed we have now thought it 
 necessary to adopt a system by which the signature of 
 the Under Secretary of State is appended to each 
 copy of the rules, stating that they have been not dis- 
 allowed, onr solicitor having advised us that that was 
 the only authority that a court would be likely to 
 admit. 
 
 4603. Supposing that an invasion was imminent, 
 and it was necessary to place the volunteers under 
 military discipline, I presume that the course of the 
 Government would be still to allow them to remain 
 in their own districts, until they were actually wanted 
 in the field ? — I should think that the v/isest course 
 would be to permit them to remain at their own 
 homes until the very last moment, to require them to 
 drill regularly and steadily when danger was im- 
 minent, but not actually to move them from their 
 own homes, until the time had arrived when, re- 
 membering the great facilities that there now are for 
 moving troops by railway, it was in the opinion of 
 the military authorities necessary to concentrate the 
 force on a given point. 
 
 4604. They would not be necessarily withdrawn 
 from their industrial pursuits until they were wauted 
 in the field ? — No, except perhaps in the case of some 
 of the richer corps that it would be easy to deal with, 
 and that might be placed in camp as circumstances 
 might arise. 
 
 4605. Supposing it was thought desirable that the 
 volunteers should have some assistance from parlia- 
 ment, would it not be necessary to have some test 
 of efficiency beyond the mere test of their being 
 eifectives? — Reserving to myself the right not to 
 give any opinion upon the question whether such 
 further assistance is required or not, I should say 
 unquestionably it would be necessary. I do not 
 think that the Government could consent to incur 
 any expenditure of the kind I imagine you to allude 
 to, without taking proper security on behalf of the 
 public that the men receiving such assistance were 
 efficient in the degree that it may be possible to obtain 
 from corps of this kind. 
 
 4606. {Lord Overstone.) Was any such test applied 
 as that which you have alluded to as a necessary con- 
 dition before assistance was given in the former 
 volunteer movement ? — As far as I am able to judge 
 from the information in I'egard to that movement 
 which I have been able to oVitaiu, and which is very 
 imperfect, I should say that it was not so ; but then 
 it must be borne in mind that the old volunteers, 
 invasion being imminent during the main part of 
 the time they were on foot, were being drilled con- 
 
 tinually, and that there was very little doubt that 
 they were becoming as eificient as tlu' ualure of their 
 service rendered possible. 
 
 4607. i^Cliainnan.) With regard t<i the duties of 
 adjutants of militia, are they not employed to a cer- 
 tain extent under the Secretary of State as pay- 
 nnisters when they are attached to corps ? — Tho 
 adjutants of disembodied militia act as paymasters 
 tor tlieir corps. 
 
 4608. And they receive remuneration aeeiirdingly ? 
 — Yes, a certain allowance aecordingly; ami tliey have 
 also their pay as adjutants. If you were to propose 
 to disburse any considerable sum to each corps in tho 
 sba|)e of money, I do not see how it could be jiossilily 
 done, except by some arrangement of that description; 
 you must, make someliody accountant to the ])ublie, 
 and from that person you must take whatever security 
 you may find necessary. 1 think that there are ob- 
 vious objections to entering into relations of that 
 description with commanding officers of volunteer 
 corps, whereas the case of militia adjutants affords a 
 very good precedent that might be adopted, and I do 
 not think, under any circumstances, that aid of that 
 description should be given to any volunteer corps 
 unprovided with an adjutant; that would be one means 
 by which you could apply your test of efliciency. 
 
 4609. lie would be responsilde to the Govern- 
 ment for the jirojier expenditure of the money, and 
 for its lieiug applied to the objects for which the 
 Government intended it to be granted ? — Yes, the 
 adjutant would be responsible, I should imagine, 
 to the Government for not expending any part of 
 that money except for the purposes that might be 
 sanctioned by regulation, or by the special sanction 
 of the Secretary of State ; but the adjutant must 
 pay on the orders of his commanding officer ; all 
 he could say would be this, and he must have the, 
 latitude of saying it to his commanding officer, 
 " I cannot apply the money for these jmrposes, as it 
 " is not within the regulations, without the sjjecial 
 " sanction of the Secretary of State," and you should 
 certainly, in any case of that kind, lay down very 
 decidedly what are the objects for which such pay- 
 ments are to be nnidc. 
 
 4610. Would it not be desirable, in case it were 
 thought right to aiford assistance to the volunteer 
 force, to limit the num!)er of the force in a time of 
 peace ? — Y^es ; I think so decidedly. I do not think 
 that you would get parliament to consent to spend a 
 large sum of money on the force, irrespectively of its 
 size ; the House of Commons would sa)', tell us what 
 amount of this force you mean to maintain ; practically 
 that must be the case, because you take your estimate, 
 and you could not spend more than your estimate. 
 
 4611. Have you ever considered how a limitation 
 of the force could be best arrived at ? — That depends 
 entirely upon what amount of force you mean to keep 
 up ; if you took an amount of force considerably less 
 than the existing force, you would have a very 
 difficult process of reduction to go through ; and, 
 although it might be done, it would, of course, be an 
 invidious and disagreeable process. If you took a force 
 something like the present, then the object would be 
 not to permit any more corps to be formed, unless 
 the old corps died out. 
 
 4612. {Lord Elcho.) If a great part of the evi- 
 dence that we have received is to be relied upon, the 
 force will soon limit itself if the Government do not 
 give what is asked for ? — I do not wish to give 
 evidence upon that point ; but it seems that it would 
 limit itself very largely indeed by a jirocess of 
 dissolution. 
 
 4613. {Lord Overstone.) Is it your opinion that 
 this Commission should look at the volunteer move- 
 ment as a means of organizing a fixed body of nu'u 
 to be always in a state* of readiness and efficiency for 
 action, having, in a case of emergency, a certain fixed 
 amount of men prejjared for that purpose, or that it 
 should be looked upon as a present nucleus of an 
 expansive character, caj)able of being enlarged when 
 more serious apprehension of danger shall pervade 
 
 Dd
 
 202 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 1862. 
 
 the public mind ? — I am inclined to think that you 
 must regard it, to a certain extent, from both points 
 of view. If you were, as has been suggested just 
 now, to limit the force, and were to take measures for 
 increasing gradually its efficiency, you would then, if 
 a sudden attack upon this country were made, have a 
 large body of men whom you could immediately bring 
 into the field, and who would be instantly available. 
 But, on the other hand, if j'ou had a foreign war, 
 for instance, which did not involve the immediate 
 invasion of this country, but which made the Govern- 
 ment of the country think that a great increase to 
 our military force was required, you might then use 
 the volunteers that you had as a nucleus with a view 
 to raising a very much larger force, such as existed 
 during the late war. 
 
 4614. Of course a limitation and an expansion of 
 the volunteer force is necessarily involved in the 
 granting or withholding Government aid ; that is to 
 say, in proportion as the Goverinnent withholds or 
 extends its aid to the force, the numbers of the force 
 will be restricted or expanded ? — Certainly. 
 
 4615. (Viscount Hardinge.) In the event of 
 further aid being given to the volunteers do you see 
 any difficulty in carrying out the relations of the 
 volunteer corps with this office as to the examination 
 of their accounts ? — No ; I do not. Of course that 
 depends upon the nature of the aid that you recom- 
 mend should be given, and the purposes to which it 
 is to be applied ; but speaking generally, and, of 
 course, in ignorance of the views of the Commission, 
 or their intentions on that subject, I should say that 
 there would be no difficulty in regard to the arrange- 
 ments of this office, supposing aid to be given of the 
 general description that I have seen sketched out in 
 the questions and answers in the evidence before this 
 Commission. 
 
 4616. Should you see any difficulty in carrying out 
 such a system if a cajjitation grant were made, to be 
 expended, as some of the witnesses have recommended, 
 at the discretion of the commanding officers ? — I 
 should think it unwise that any grant of money that 
 miglit be made should be expended at the absolute 
 discretion of the commanding officers. 
 
 4617. Would there bo any difficulty, in your opinion, 
 in the Government granting aid to the volunteers 
 in the shape of a capitation grant, to be expended 
 under certain regulations ? — Putting entirely aside the 
 question of the propriety of making any farther grant 
 to the volunteers, I do not think there would be any 
 practical difficulty in the adoption of such a system. 
 
 4618. Can you form any rough estimate of what 
 the additional expense would be to this office in the 
 pay of additional clerks for the examination of such 
 accounts ? — That would of course depend upon the 
 nature of the accounts to be rendered ; but, speaking 
 generally, as far as I have been able to form any idea 
 of the sort of plan contemplated, I think that a very 
 small addition, if any, would be required, for I 
 believe that accounts of that description, such as I 
 allude to, would be very much less troublesome to 
 examine than the training pay lists of the militia ; 
 and having consulted those in this office who are 
 better judges of that than I am, I believe that they 
 would be very easily examined, and dealt with, as a 
 mere matter of official routine. 
 
 4619. From your experience of the way in which 
 the adjutants of disembodied militia act as pay- 
 masters, have you every reason to believe that the 
 adjutants of the volunteers would be as efficient as 
 they are, if they are efficient in the examination of 
 the volunteers' accounts ? — It seems to me, if I under- 
 stand the nature of the accounts that you con- 
 template,, and of course it all turns upon that, that 
 the duties of the volunteer adjutant as to the 
 accounts would be infinitely less complicated and 
 difficult than those of the adjutant of militia, who 
 has to pay men individually, to pay or to strike 
 off bounty here, and to consider what is the amount 
 due to a man there, and to take care that the account 
 of each individual in the regiment is accurate, and in 
 
 accordance with the regulations of the service. I 
 imagine if any such aid was given to the volunteers, 
 as appears to be contemplated by some of the 
 witnesses, that all an adjutant would have to do 
 would be to pay a certain number of bills once, 
 or twice, or three times, in the course of a year ; but 
 those bills he would pay only if consistent with the 
 orders of the Secretary of State ; if they were not 
 consistent with those orders, he would not pay them 
 until the sanction of the Secretary of State had been 
 obtained ; that appears to me to bo a very simple 
 matter, both as to the adjutant and as to the question 
 of accounts in this department. With regard to the 
 character and reliability of the adjutants, they are 
 gentlemen who have served in the army, and in 
 whom perfect reliance, speaking generally, as to 
 matters of account may be placed quite as much as in 
 the adjutants of militia, who are drawn from the same 
 class of persons. 
 
 4620. The vouchers in such a case would have to 
 be sent to this office ? — Yes. 
 
 4621. With regard to the drill instructors and the 
 subdivisions, in cases where a company is reduced to 
 a subdivision from want of pecuniary aid, do you 
 think that that subdivision might be permitted to 
 retain its Government instructor ? — If drill in- 
 structors were attached, not to individual corps, but 
 to an administrative battalion, I think in that case the 
 services of a drill instructor — I do not mean the 
 whole exclusive use of the drill instructor — might be 
 obtained for subdivisions, and that instruction might 
 be given to tliose corps which are uow deprived 
 of it by the existing regulations. I certainly would 
 not give any further Government aid to any corps 
 that were not iu some battalion. 
 
 4622. ( Cliairman.) All corps would either lie iu a 
 consolidated battalion or form part of an administra- 
 tive battalion ? — Certainly. 
 
 4623. ( Viscount Hardinge.) If the drill instructors 
 were under the orders of the adjutant and the colonel 
 of an administrative battalion at headquarters, would 
 it not be necessary to give those drill instructors a 
 travelling allowance to enable them to visit the dif- 
 ferent companies and to drill them ? — That is a ques- 
 tion for the consideration of the Commission. 
 
 4624. {Sir A. Campbell.) I think you stated that 
 when the present volunteer force was first organized 
 it was contemplated that the whole of the expense 
 should be borne by the corps, and not by the Govern- 
 ment ? — Yes. 
 
 4625. Were any indications or suggestions of that 
 intention made to the lord-lieutenants, through whom 
 the offi^rs of enrolment of volunteers were forwarded ? 
 — I have the original circulars here, and I think you 
 will find that that principle Ijreathes throughout the 
 whole of the two first circulars. One of the pro- 
 visions of the very first circular dated the 12th May 
 1859 is, that the members of a volunteer corps 
 undertake to provide their own arms and equip- 
 ments, to defray all expenses connected with the 
 corps, except in the event of its being assembled 
 for actual service ; and as each step in advance in 
 the direction of increased Government aid has been 
 taken by the Government, successive declaratious 
 have been made in parliament, if not in circulars, 
 that they were not going to give any further assistance 
 than that whicli was given at that moment. I am quite 
 aware that in consequence of the successive steps which 
 have been taken, any belief in the determination of 
 the Government to adhere to those declarations may 
 have been somewhat shaken, and I may, perhaps, be 
 permitted to say this to the Commission, that while, as 
 I said liefore, I think the position in which we now 
 stand is a perfectly intelligible and clear position in 
 reo'ard to aid, .it seems to me most important, what- 
 ever may be the result of the labours of this Commis- 
 sion, or the decision to which the Government maycome 
 when they receive the report of the Commission that 
 that report, and the result of it, should be such'as to 
 put an end to the expectations of the volunteers, 
 that? the arrangements which may then be adopted will
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 203 
 
 be liable to revision, for whatever those aiTangements 
 naay be, the sort of agitation whicli has existed on 
 this subject should be put an end to, so that the corps 
 may hereafter be placed on a permanent l)asis, what- 
 ever may be the amount of the force that you can 
 obtain upon that basis. 
 
 4626. I suppose it is within your knowledge that 
 numerous enrolments have been forwarded from many 
 parts of the country, when it was perfectly well 
 known in the locality that those corps could not 
 maintain themselves beyond the first start ? — I could 
 not state that of my own knowledge. I gather it 
 from the evidence which has been given before the 
 Commission, and from what I have heard from others. 
 
 4627. Do you not think it would be desirable that 
 something like a code of suggestions should be issued 
 to the lord lieutenants of counties, so as to secure 
 uniformity in the manner of enrolmeut and the mode 
 of .appointing officers, and all the other functions 
 which appertain to lord lieutenants in making their 
 recommendations to this department ? — That is a 
 difficult question, because there are very great diffe- 
 rences in dilfi^rent localities ; the whole foundation of 
 the volunteer force, as at present organized, is that 
 it is a force raised locally ; and we look to the lord 
 lieutenants, in accordance with the general instruc- 
 tions which they may receive, to raise such corps as 
 they may think fit and proper within their own 
 districts. It might be possible to put out upon the 
 subject of enrolments some more strict regulations 
 than have hitherto been put out, but I very much 
 doubt whether there would not be very considerable 
 difficulty the moment you departed from the few 
 general principles which hiive already been laid down 
 in those circulars in devising further rules on this 
 point. As to the appointment of officers, the Govern- 
 ment have, at the present moment, as far as I know, 
 no legal authority, except the general supremacy of 
 the Government to make regulations binding upon 
 lord lieutenants. The lord lieutenants are entrusted 
 with the power of grantmg commissions to officers, 
 subject to the disallowance of Her Majesty, and 
 there is not in the Volunteer Act the powers that 
 there are- in one of the recent Militia Acts for issuing 
 regulations as to that matter. It is a point, perhaps, 
 as to which it is desirable to obtain fresh legislation ; 
 but you must leave the main responsibility, both as 
 to the corps to be raised and the officers to be 
 nominated, with the lord lieutenant ; he has local 
 knowledge, and you must enable the Government to 
 hold him responsible for all the steps that are taken 
 and appointments that are made. 
 
 4628. {Lord Elcho.) If any assistance is recom- 
 mended by this Commission, and it is granted by the 
 Government, the Government will naturally expect 
 that it is only given for men who are thoroughly 
 efficient ? — For men who are efficient within the 
 meaning which the Government may think fit to 
 attach to that word. 
 
 4629. At present that measure is in accordance 
 with the wording of the Act of Parliament, which 
 prescribes a certain number of drills, namely 18, half 
 of which are to be of one description, and the other 
 half of another description. Are you of opinion, from 
 your knowledge of this matter, that you may have 
 efficiency without a man being effective in the present 
 state of things ? — I should say that you might pos- 
 sibly have efficiency without a man being effective, 
 and you might, certainly, have an effective without 
 the man being efficient ; the two cases are entirely 
 disunited. 
 
 4630. Is it advisable that those two cases which are 
 at present disunited should be united ? — I think so. 
 
 4631. Do you contemplate a new Act of Parlia- 
 ment ? — I think that if such changes as have been 
 discussed before this Commission are to be carried out, 
 there must be a new Act of Parliament. 
 
 4632. (Major Harcourt.) I believe it is the wish 
 of the Government specially to encourage the artillery 
 volunteers ou the coast ? — Yes. 
 
 4633. It a])pears that the Government had in(endeJ 
 to pay for the carriiige of all artillery stores ? — Y?s, 
 
 4634. From the evidence that has been giyeu before 
 this Commission, it appears that that has not been 
 clearly understood amongst the commanding officers 
 of artillery? — Yes. 
 
 463.5. Would it be possil)le, in the shape of a 
 Government circular or memorandum, to make them 
 aware of that ? — Yes ; nothing would be more easy. 
 If it results from the evidence that there is any doubt 
 upon a point of that kind, we should be ready to clear 
 it up immediately without any reconnnendation. 
 
 4636. ( Viscoiitit Ildrdiiige.) Would it not be very 
 desirable to increase if possible the numerical strength 
 of the artillery volunteers ? — Certainly. 
 
 4637. And not in any way to limit that branch 
 of the force in numbers, if it were thought advisable 
 to limit the strength of the rifle volunteers ? — I think 
 that you must limit the total strength of the force, 
 because that is the only mode by which you can limit 
 the expense. I mean that you must limit it upon the 
 supposition that more aid is given. You cannot limit 
 it in one part, and let it expand indefinitely in another. 
 
 4638. Considering the great value of the artillery 
 volunteers as auxiliary to the militia and royal artillery, 
 would it be desirable to limit the numerical strength 
 of that force ? — I think that a limit must be put ; you 
 might say that the total strength shall not be beyond 
 so and so, or you might say if the total strength 
 reaches only so and so, we will allow a further addi- 
 tioit of such and such a number of artillery. 
 
 4639. {Lord Overstone.) Would not the limitation 
 be sufficiently accomplished by laying down more 
 stringent regulations as to the qualifications of those 
 who received the assistance ? — That is entirely a 
 matter of experience. I do not think that you could 
 very well decide upon that until you had seen how 
 the new scheme, whatever it might be, would work. 
 I do not suppose it is intended that any limitaliou 
 should be put into the Act of Parliament, or that there 
 should be any limitation of that absolute description, 
 but that the Government should annually state to parlia- 
 ment that they took an estimate for such and such a 
 number of volunteers, and that it should be understood 
 that the force was not to be increased beyond that 
 number. 
 
 4640. {Chairman.) Without that limit you would 
 hardly be able to obtain a vote from the House of 
 Commons ? — I should imagine not. 
 
 4641. Is it desirable, in your opinion, that the 
 volunteer corps should be placed under the cominand 
 of the general officers commanding in districts, some- 
 what after the manner that the artillery corps arc so 
 placed under their command ? — I think there seems 
 to exist in the minds of some of the witnesses who have 
 been examined before the Commission, as far as I can 
 judge from the evidence, considerable misconception 
 as to what really is the connexion between the officers 
 commanding the royal artillery and the artUlery 
 volunteers, and I am glad that your questiou gives 
 me an opportunity of endeavouring to clear up that 
 point. The connexion between the officers com- 
 manding the royal artillery in the Districts and the 
 artillery volunteers relates (exclusively to instruction 
 and practice ; the artillery vohmteers are dealt with 
 in a different manner from the rifle volunteers in this 
 respect, that from the beginning guns and ammuni- 
 tion have been supplied to them gratis, and from a 
 very early period I)ombardiers and non-cormnissioned 
 officers of the coast brigade have been given to 
 them as drill instructors, but those drill instructors 
 have remained in the coast brigade, and have not 
 been attached to the volunteer corps by any direct 
 connexion ; they have been detailed to do duty 
 with those corps, and therefore they have re- 
 mained of course, under the general supervison and 
 orders of the commanding officers of the royal artil- 
 lery. On the other hand, the guns and stores, for 
 obvious reasons, have also remained in the charge, 
 theoretically at all events, of the officers of royal 
 artUlery ; that has worked very well, and has been 
 
 Dd 2 
 
 ir,.
 
 204 
 
 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED 
 
 admiriibly managed by the officers of royal artillery, 
 and from those two circumstances there has grown 
 up the present special connexion between the artil- 
 lery volunteers and the officers of the royal artillery 
 in the different Districts. I confess that in time of 
 peace I think it would be undesirable and indeed in- 
 consistent with the character and constitutional nature 
 of the force that it should be placed under the com- 
 mand of the general officers commanding Districts ; 
 it would be certainly inconsistent with the obvious 
 intention of the Act of Parliament, because it saj's 
 that the voluuteei;s shall come under the command of 
 general officers only when called out for actual ser- 
 vice, and that obviously points to their not being 
 under their command at any other time, and, indeed, 
 they could not be in any military sense under the 
 command of any officers in the army, as they are not 
 under military discipline. The general commanding 
 a District is the officer in command of Her Majesty's 
 ti'oops in the District ; the lord lieutenant, on the 
 other hand, is the officer iu command, or, as it is called, 
 the commander-in-chief of tlie militia, yeomanry, 
 and volunteer forces within his county ; that is his 
 constitutional position, and to place anybody else in 
 that position would be an innovation not consistent 
 with the Act of Parliament, and not consistent, I 
 think, with the nature of this force, and would not be 
 acceptable, I should imagine, to the lord lieutenants. 
 The drill instructors and adjutants of the rifle volun- 
 teers, and the adjutants, be it remembered, of artillery 
 volunteers also, are all under the direction and 
 command of the commanding officers of the volunteer 
 corps, subject to the orders of this department ; they 
 are under martial law, and they are liable to be tried 
 by court-martial ; but not by a court-martial composed 
 of military officers, for the Act says distinctly that the 
 court-martial is to be composed of volunteer officers, 
 and, therefore, it seems to me that it would be quite 
 inconsistent with the nature of the force to attempt 
 to place it under the general officers commanding 
 Districts in time of peace. I do not think it would 
 be desirable to alter their present relations to the 
 general officers commanding Districts. We have 
 always received from the general officers command- 
 ing Districts the greatest assistance in all matters 
 relating to the volunteers ; they have shown great 
 interest in them and a desire to afford them every 
 assistance, advice, and instruction that it was in their 
 power to give ; but I think it is desirable, both for 
 the army and for the volunteers, that in a time of 
 peace their relations should be of that friendly cha- 
 racter, and that they should not be brought into 
 closer connexion, it being always understood that the 
 moment they are called out for actual service they 
 come ipso facto under the orders of the general 
 officers appointed by Her Majesty to command Her 
 forces under those circumstances, and that then they 
 would be entirely and completely under the direction 
 of such general officers. 
 
 4642. Is it not the case as to the yeomanry that 
 they are only under the command of the commanding 
 officer of a district, or the officer in command of a 
 garrison or town in which they are placed, when 
 they are on permanent duty under military law, and, 
 in fact, under the articles of war ? — Certainly. 
 
 4643. ( Viscount Hardinge.) Is it not the fact that 
 
 the placing the artillery volunteers under the officer 
 commanding the artillery in the district has rather 
 given satisfaction than otherwise to the volunteers ? 
 .^No doul)t it has ; but they are not under the officer 
 commanding the royal artillery in the sense that the 
 volunteers would be if under the general officer com- 
 manding a District. The officer commanding the 
 royal artillery in a District has nothing to do with 
 them, except as to their practice and drill, and he has 
 to do with them as to their practice and drill, because 
 their drill instructors are royal artillerymen, and their 
 guns and their ammunition ai-e iu charge of the royal 
 artillery. 
 
 4644. Would it be possible, do you think, to put 
 the rifle volunteers under the general officer, in the 
 same way that you put the artillery volunteers under 
 the officer commanding the royal artillery in the dis- 
 trict ? — I think not, as the cases are not parallel ; 
 their drill instrnctors are not soldiers remaining in 
 their regiments ; in some cases they are soldiers who 
 are transferred under a peculiar regulation, but they 
 are not soldiers actually liable to be withdrawn at any 
 moment, another man being sent in their place, as in 
 the case of the artillery; neither are there any stores 
 in any way in charge of any officer of the army; 
 they are in a totally different position. I do not see 
 how you could carry it out. 
 
 4645. But still they are under martial law, that is, 
 the adjutants and the drill instructors ? — They are 
 not inider ordinary martial law, they are under the 
 Mutiny Act and the articles of war, bnt they are not 
 liable to be tried by officers of the regular forces. 
 
 4646. (^Major-Gen. Eyre.) Some two or three wit- 
 nesses have maintained that the volunteer force ought 
 to be a perfectly independent force, and talked of 
 their having a complete staff of their own, does not 
 it appear to you that to accustom the volunteers to 
 work with those with -nhom they must necessarily be 
 intimately associated in case of actual operations in 
 the field, would be a desirable thing, as often as it 
 could be done ? — Certainly, most desirable. 
 
 4647. Is it not great folly to suppose that they 
 could be, under any circumstances, allowed to act as 
 an independent force, or that they would be of any 
 use as such ? — In my judgment it would be impos- 
 sible ; certainl}', I think most undesirable. 
 
 4648. Would they not be under the command of 
 the commander-in-chief of the army in the field and 
 his generals ? — Yes. 
 
 4649. Would not any such system in a case of war 
 only render them an obstruction instead of valuable 
 auxiliaries to the regular troops ? — I cannot conceive 
 a system of that kind being adopted by any Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 46o0, Does your lordship entertain any doubt 
 that the more intimately the volunteers are asso- 
 ciated with the regular troops the greater will be 
 their efficiency and discipline, and the more cordial 
 the feeling existing between the two bodies ? — Cer- 
 tainly not. 
 
 4651. Does your lordship believe that the volun- 
 teers as a body, although there may be some objec- 
 tions on the part of individuals, would not only like 
 it, but in point of fact, would like it very much ? — I 
 have every reason to believe so.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE. IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 20.5 
 
 LETTERS AND MEMORANI).\. 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 Page 
 (1.) — Memorandum relative to Government Aid given to 
 
 the old Volunteers - - . . 205 
 
 (2.) — Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 
 
 1st of April 18G2 .... 206 
 
 (.3.) — Copy of Reports from the Assistant Inspectors of 
 
 Volunteers - . - . - 224 
 
 Page 
 
 (4.)— Copy of a Letter from T.ieutennut-Colonel Aeland, 
 
 on the I'rovision of Drill Iiislructors, &c. - 228 
 
 (.I.) — Copy of a Letter from the lion. 1). V. Curzon, 
 
 on Cadet Volunteer Corps ... 229 
 
 (C.)— Letters addressed to the Chairman of the Commis- 
 sion 229 
 
 (1.)— Memorandum relative to Government Aid given to the Old Volunteers. 
 
 (Furnished by the Secretary of State for War.) 
 
 The great body of volunteers commenced in 1803, their 
 numbers were (inchiding yeomanrj-) : — 
 
 1803 
 
 - 463,134 
 
 1810 
 
 - 209,860 
 
 1804 
 
 - 449,140 
 
 1811 
 
 . 209,000 
 
 1805 
 
 - 429,165 
 
 1812 
 
 - 206,062 
 
 180G 
 
 - 420,310 
 
 1813 
 
 - 203,528 
 
 ISO? 
 
 - 406,869 
 
 1814 
 
 - 133,609 
 
 1808 
 
 - 413,464 
 
 1815 
 
 . 111,153 
 
 1809 
 
 - 200,983 
 
 
 
 The votes for volunteers and local militia were (incUidinfr 
 yeomanry) : — 
 
 
 Volunteers. 
 
 Local Militia. 
 
 
 
 £ 
 
 Ji 
 
 1803 
 
 « 
 
 899,169 
 
 ■ 
 
 1804 
 
 . 
 
 2,590,568 
 
 
 1805 
 
 . 
 
 1,600,000 
 
 
 1806 
 
 _ 
 
 1,738,806 
 
 
 1807 
 
 _ 
 
 1.490,301 
 
 
 1808 
 
 _ 
 
 1,293,487 
 
 
 1809 
 
 _ 
 
 1,000,820 
 
 1,219.803 
 
 1810 
 
 _ 
 
 869.569 
 
 643,650 
 
 1811 
 
 _ 
 
 566,022 
 
 704,827 
 
 1812 
 
 _ 
 
 531,169 
 
 720,07s 
 
 1813 
 
 _ 
 
 475,400 
 
 6;i6,62:) 
 
 1814 
 
 _ 
 
 312,804 
 
 6;u;,623 
 
 1815 
 
 _ 
 
 * 167,038 
 
 ;i(;o,ooo 
 
 1816 
 
 - 
 
 *110,113 
 
 t90,000 
 
 The volunteers received from the public : — 
 Pay for a permanent adjutant. 
 
 Do. do. serjeant-major. 
 
 Do. do. drill Serjeant. 
 
 Clothing, &c., as an outfit. A clothing allowance of 
 
 20s. per man onci.' in three years. 
 6.f. 8(/. per head per anntim for repair of arms. 
 When called out for duty or exercise, pay, &c., at 
 various rates, about equal to the pay of the regular 
 army. 
 
 The average cost per inan per annum was nearly 41., 
 exclusive of arms and omnuinition. 
 
 *The local militia established in 1809 ajjiicars to liave 
 taken lhe place, to a gicat extent, of the viihinteers, of 
 which there was a reduction in that year of 212,000 men. 
 
 Encouragement seems to have been given to the volun- 
 teers to enlist into the local militia, and whole ngiments 
 transferred their services to that force. 
 
 The chief part of the volunteer infantry of (iieat Britain 
 were reduced in 1813, on which occa.sion a circular lelter 
 was sent from the Sccretaiy of State for the Home l'c|)arl- 
 ment to Lords Lieutenant, in which the lollowing occurs : — 
 " I have it in command from the Prince Regent to accjuaint 
 " your Lordshi]) that as the establishment of tlie local 
 " militia precludes the necessity of continuing, under jjre. 
 " sent circumstances, the services of the greater part of the 
 " volunteer infantiy," &c. 
 
 In three years afterwards, the war having teiminated, the 
 local militia also ceased to exist. 
 
 On the introduction of the Bill for local militia in 1808, 
 the reasons given by Lord Hawhsbury for the creation of 
 the new force, and the reducticni of the old, were that 
 although the volunteer system was not objected to so far as 
 it went, yet that it could" not altogether be depended upon, 
 because its efficiency entirely rested upon the spirit which 
 might prevail at the time, and which might i.windle and 
 evaporate. 
 
 The local mihtia, being a more ]',crmanent and comi)ul- 
 sory force, would remedy this defect. 
 
 That the volunteers had not become unpopular appears 
 from the following :— Lord Palmcrstcn, in 1814, " pro- 
 " nounced a very animated culogium on this meritorious 
 " body of men, "who bad boldly come forward to defend 
 " their country when it was threatened with invasicm." 
 (Hansard, 27th June 1814, v. 28.) 
 
 The thanks of the Ilotise were voted to the volunteera 
 on July 6, 1814. (Hansard, v. 28.) 
 
 The Secretary of State for the Home Deiiartmcnt. in 
 circular letter of 17th March 1813, to Lords Lietitenant, 
 ])asscd a very high culogium on the volunteers in the name 
 of the Prince Regent. 
 
 (Signed) W. (). iLvHsiiALi.. 
 
 War Office, 27th March 1862. 
 
 • Nothing included herein for volunteers in Great Britain, tlie votes 
 beinK contiiied to EuRlisli and Irish .veomanr.v. 
 t This was the last vote taken for the local mihtia. 
 
 * ,\cts 4S C!c?o. 3. c. 3,16108 (Gnat Britain), and IS Geo. 3. c. 100, 1808 
 (Scotland). 
 
 Dd 3
 
 206 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OP THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 
 (2.) — Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862. 
 
 {Given in by Colonel MacMurdo.) 
 
 
 No. of 
 
 
 Light 
 Horse. 
 
 J> 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Rifle. 
 
 Rifle. 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 Total 
 
 Total 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 1 
 
 M 
 
 
 S 
 
 
 1 "" 
 
 
 Total 
 
 COPNTT. 
 
 
 Organization. 
 
 
 ■SI 
 
 a; ' a> t. 
 
 'E 
 
 •32 
 
 
 12 
 
 
 n £ 
 
 each 
 County. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Corps. 
 
 
 1 
 
 11 
 
 Batteri 
 
 Enroll 
 Membc 
 
 p. 
 
 a 
 6 
 
 11 
 
 a 
 5 
 
 -5 V 
 
 Si 
 
 B 
 o 
 o 
 
 Is 
 
 18B2. 
 
 18G1. 
 
 1800. 
 
 Aberdeen 
 
 1" 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 5 ■ 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 6 
 
 404 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 404 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 10 ■ 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 9 
 
 504 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21, 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 • 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 6 
 
 398 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 16 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 17 ■ 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 
 428 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 48 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 . - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 80 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 11 
 
 695 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 22 
 
 - - - 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 40 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 23 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 60 
 
 2,253 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,657 
 
 2,507 
 
 1,947 
 
 Anglesey 
 
 1 
 
 . . - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 49 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 . - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 2 113 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 - - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 54 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 216 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 _ _ 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 229 
 
 229 
 
 
 385 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 445 
 
 
 Argyll 
 
 r 
 3 . 
 
 4 
 2 
 5 
 6 
 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 1 
 
 i 
 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 
 284 
 
 65 
 32 
 60 
 78 
 63 
 51 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ^_ 
 
 
 , 
 
 633 
 
 
 
 
 
 2" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 7 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 5 
 
 301 
 
 301 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 _ - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 2 
 
 53 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 _ - _ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 2 
 
 61 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 111 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 71 
 
 296 
 
 
 
 
 Ayr - 
 
 n 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,230 
 
 1,305 
 
 939 
 
 
 3 • 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 
 
 
 
 5* 
 
 320 
 
 — . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 320 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 12i 
 
 971 
 
 971 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,291 
 
 1 329 
 
 1,034 
 
 Bantp • 
 
 r 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 > 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 5 
 
 280 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 80 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5_ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN*. 
 
 207 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — cont. 
 
 COUKTT. 
 
 No. of 
 Coi*ps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Lipht 
 Horso. 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 ■gE 
 
 Engineer, 
 
 si I 
 
 ■?2 
 
 c a> 
 
 Mounted 
 Rifle. 
 
 Rille. 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 Total 
 
 «> 
 
 
 S" 
 
 
 ■g 
 
 IS 
 
 B 
 
 n rolled 
 embers 
 
 caeh 
 
 18f,i. 
 
 E 
 
 f3 
 
 a 
 
 County. 
 
 
 d 
 
 Wg 
 
 o 
 
 WE 
 
 
 
 Total 
 1880. 
 
 Banff — cont. 
 
 Bedford 
 
 Bebks 
 
 Bektvick 
 
 Bekwicu-o.n- 
 
 TWEED. 
 
 Brecknock 
 
 Bucks 
 
 \ 
 
 Bute 
 
 Caithness 
 
 Cambridge 
 
 n 
 
 2 
 4 
 5 
 
 6 I 
 
 7 I 
 8J 
 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 
 12 
 8" 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 2"! 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 
 7J 
 1 
 3 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 51 
 50 
 
 104 
 
 61 
 41 
 
 58 
 
 10 
 
 4i 
 
 1 
 6 
 1 
 i 
 
 215 
 
 449 
 
 975 
 
 64 
 75 
 62 
 74 
 
 215 
 
 449 
 
 81 
 70 
 59 
 66 
 37 
 
 61 
 
 484 
 
 56 
 69 
 32 
 73 
 72 
 54 
 48 
 
 86 
 
 1,250 
 
 101 
 
 313 
 
 104 
 61 
 
 484 
 
 61 
 86 
 
 78 
 
 309 
 
 113 
 
 595 
 
 102 
 
 34 
 
 28 
 
 40J 
 
 8G 
 
 16) 
 
 225 
 
 70 
 
 1,181 
 
 495 
 
 449 
 
 1,250 
 
 ?47 
 
 4Si3 
 
 504 29T 
 
 1,008 
 
 414 
 
 382 
 
 165 164 
 
 484 
 
 404 
 86 
 
 406 
 
 418 
 85 
 
 589 
 
 407 
 
 In Ber- 
 wick. 
 
 271 
 
 271 
 80 
 
 385 
 
 1,251 
 
 415 
 
 1,188 
 
 Dd 4 
 
 161 
 
 DO
 
 20 S 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 Eurolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — cont. 
 
 CorwTY. 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Light 
 Hor.vc. 
 
 as 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 "Si ^ 
 
 Mounted 
 Killc. 
 
 
 Eifle. 
 
 ^J3 
 O S 
 
 No. of 
 
 Arm in 
 
 oa<-li 
 
 County 
 
 Total 
 1S62. 
 
 Total 
 1.%1. 
 
 Total 
 1S60. 
 
 Cakdig.vn 
 
 Cakjurtiien - 
 
 Carnarvon - 
 
 Chester 
 
 ClXQUE PORIS 
 
 (Sussex) 
 
 Clackmannan 
 
 1st Adni. Batt. 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 
 4 
 U 
 14 
 30 
 34 
 
 6' 
 
 7 
 23 
 24J 
 12 
 15 
 22 
 25 
 26 I 
 28 I 
 32J 
 
 a 
 
 13 
 
 17 
 
 18 
 
 19 ^ 
 
 20 
 
 21 
 
 29 
 
 31 
 
 5 
 
 8 
 16 
 27 
 33j 
 
 la 
 lb 
 Ic 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 1 
 
 9 
 10 S- 
 17 
 19 
 
 2' 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm.Bri" 
 
 1st Adm. Bitt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 4(h Adm. Batf. 
 
 5tli Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 Attached to"| 
 1st Adm. ! 
 Brig. Stir- ( 
 ling, K.V.J 
 
 54 
 
 525 — — 
 
 196 
 
 G8 
 59 
 62 
 61 
 221 
 40 
 38 
 
 4i 
 
 30 
 56 
 66 
 
 427 
 
 542 
 
 152 
 
 427 
 
 54 
 
 542 
 
 152 
 
 427 
 
 151 
 
 423 
 
 189 
 
 406 
 
 596 
 
 524 
 
 535 
 
 683 
 
 456 
 
 568 
 
 660 
 
 524 
 
 525 
 
 196 
 
 Jo 
 
 339 
 
 358 
 
 ,891 
 
 635 
 
 697 
 
 3,612 
 
 1,332 
 
 3,565 
 
 2,836 
 
 1,142 
 224 
 
 In Kent. 
 219
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OP THE VOLtTNTEER FORCE IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 209 
 
 I 
 
 
 
 Enrolled Sti 
 
 •eng 
 
 h of the Volunteer Force 
 
 on the 1st of April 1862 — cotit. 
 
 
 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Light 
 Horse. 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 Engineor. 
 
 Mounted 
 Kille. 
 
 EiQc. 
 
 No. of 
 
 Arm in 
 
 each 
 
 County. 
 
 Totr.l 
 1302. 
 
 Total 
 1801. 
 
 
 COUNTX. 
 
 1 
 H 
 
 ■a » 
 
 li 
 
 .a 
 
 1 
 
 fi 
 
 mi 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 .. 
 
 1 II 
 6 |Wa 
 
 CA 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 II 
 
 Ai 
 
 Total 
 ISGO. 
 
 CORN-WAI.I. 
 
 r 
 
 
 I 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 y 
 
 1 1st Adm. linsr. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 10 
 
 GIG 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 __ 
 
 
 
 C16 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 U 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . • 
 
 r 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 u 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 > 
 
 lat Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 , 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 __ 
 
 
 
 104. 
 
 884 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 j 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 41 
 5 
 
 t 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 9r 
 
 2nd Adm. Eatt. 
 
 _ _ 
 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 
 -i « 
 
 5G2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 19J 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ' 1,44G 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,062 
 
 2,073 
 
 1,814 
 
 
 
 CP.OMARTr 
 
 1 - - - 
 
 ~ ! ~" 
 
 1 ! 36 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 _j _ 
 
 — ! 36 j 36 
 
 55 
 
 
 CU-HEEULAXD - 
 
 r 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 3 
 
 1 St Adm. Brig. 
 
 
 
 
 
 4i 270 
 
 
 _ 
 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 270 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 1 
 1 I 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 I 
 
 - - - 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 72 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 — 1 72 
 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 6 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 12't 
 
 910 
 
 910 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,232 
 
 I,19G 
 
 
 
 
 1,011 
 
 Denbigh 
 
 1 
 
 r 
 
 2 
 3 
 
 t 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 37 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8i 
 
 441 
 
 37 
 441 
 
 
 
 
 
 8. 
 
 1 
 
 r 
 
 4 
 
 . . - 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I 
 
 .55 
 
 
 
 
 478 
 
 572 
 
 267 
 
 Derbt 
 
 — 
 
 55 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 12} 
 
 let Adm. Biitt. 
 
 
 
 
 
 j — 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 S 
 
 G34 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1!) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 IG. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2- 
 
 8 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 
 
 4.V 
 
 283 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 "* 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 . 3i-d Adm. Batt. 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 5 
 
 389 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 j 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,311 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,3CC 
 
 1,429 
 
 1,050 
 
 
 
 I
 
 210 
 
 COCMY. 
 
 Devon 
 
 COBSET 
 
 Dumbarton - 
 
 Dumfries 
 
 APPENDIX TO KEPORT OP THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 18(52 — cont. 
 
 "So. of 
 
 Corps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 
 S 
 
 9 
 11 
 
 6' 
 10 
 10 ^ 
 1.3 J 
 
 1 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 6 
 
 11 
 
 13 
 14 
 20 
 25 
 
 27 
 
 21 
 3 
 16 
 
 18 ,' 
 21J 
 
 9 
 10 
 17 
 23 
 26 
 
 1 
 
 1st Adra. Brier. 
 
 2nd Adni. Brig. 
 
 Light 
 Horse. 
 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 
 lo" 
 
 11 
 12 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
 12 
 
 r 
 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 4th Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 = •2 
 
 Artillei7. 
 
 54 I — 
 
 Hg 
 
 9i 685 
 
 .524 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 •S £ 
 
 p 
 
 Mounted 
 Kitte. 
 
 68 
 87 
 62 
 
 56 
 54 
 53 
 
 fig 
 
 Rifle. 
 
 n 
 
 «g 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 e.ich 
 County. 
 
 Total 
 1S62. 
 
 60 
 
 28 
 53 
 58 I 
 50 
 
 — 5 
 
 11 
 
 10 
 
 568 
 
 579 
 
 476 
 
 432 
 
 762 
 
 54 
 
 1.209 
 
 249 
 29 
 
 2,817 
 
 797 
 
 29 
 26 
 45 
 
 lOj 
 
 8J 
 
 217 
 
 897 
 
 163 
 
 Total 
 1861. 
 
 Total 
 ISiiO. 
 
 4,.'?.58 
 
 1,114 
 
 804 
 
 570 
 
 3,838 
 
 3,205 
 
 1,225 
 
 1,031 
 
 804 
 
 570 
 
 967 
 
 1,010 
 
 594 
 
 923 
 
 526
 
 TO INQUIKK INTO THE CONDITION OF THK VOLUNTKHK FOliCE IN OHKAT MIUTAIN. 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862— cont. 
 
 211 
 
 
 
 Liftht 
 Horse. 
 
 ArtiUery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 MounteO 
 EiUc. 
 
 RiHo. 
 
 No. o( 
 
 
 
 
 County. 
 
 No. of 
 
 OrBanization. 
 
 
 ■gE 
 
 « 
 
 ■3 Zi 
 
 rr. 
 
 o 
 
 T) S 
 
 i 
 
 r3 » 
 
 O 
 
 •n '■ 
 
 Arm ir 
 
 Total 
 
 Total 
 
 Total 
 
 
 Corps 
 
 
 c. 
 
 =1 
 
 
 
 
 .So 
 
 1 
 
 II 
 
 'S 
 
 •5 J 
 
 each 
 
 1862. 
 
 1801. 
 
 1800. 
 
 
 
 
 ? 
 
 ai 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 a 
 
 §E 
 
 B 
 
 §a 
 
 County 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 s l«s 
 
 n 
 
 KR 
 
 <§ 
 
 «S 
 
 a 
 
 W^ 
 
 o 
 
 wg 
 
 
 
 
 
 Durham 
 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 2 
 
 5 
 1 
 5 
 
 196 
 
 2.58 
 
 76 
 
 36.5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 / 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ~ 
 
 ^~ 
 
 ^~~ 
 
 895 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 <■ IstAdm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 11 
 
 770 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 u. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 407 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20_ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 399 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 16 
 
 4th Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 _ 
 
 i 
 
 419 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3j 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 5 
 
 296 
 
 2,291 
 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3,186 
 
 3,098 
 
 2,009 
 
 
 
 Edinburgh - 
 
 1 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 9 
 
 564 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 
 564 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 I 
 
 64 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 ^ 
 
 — 
 
 64 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ~ 
 
 ~ 
 
 21 
 
 1,801 
 
 1,801 
 
 2,429 
 
 2,,509 
 
 3,688 
 
 
 
 Elgin - 
 
 1 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 .') 
 GJ 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 53 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 4.19 
 
 53 
 439 
 
 492 
 
 564 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 366 
 
 Essex - 
 
 I 
 2 
 
 ~ " " 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 54 
 68 
 55 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 177 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 77 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 77 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 ... 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 30 
 
 
 
 
 
 30 
 
 
 
 
 
 4' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 ■ 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9* 
 
 715 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 16 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 23j 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 12 
 
 970 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 . 
 
 3rd i\dm. Batt. 
 
 __ 
 
 __ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 11 
 
 651 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 24 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 . . - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 294 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 ... 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 68 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 91 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 22 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 i 
 
 107 
 
 2,836 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 .3,120 
 
 .3,107 
 
 
 
 
 1,848 
 
 Fife 
 
 n 
 
 2 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I- 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 10* 
 
 630 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 6,TO 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 lOj 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 - .1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 1 
 
 60 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 160 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 Ee 2
 
 212 
 
 APl'EiNWX TO llErOKT OF THE COMMISSION API'OIXTED 
 
 Enrolled Strength of tlio Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — cont. 
 
 COCSTT. 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 Orjranization. 
 
 S. I Avtillery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Rine. 
 
 Kiau. 
 
 t 
 
 Fife — cont. 
 
 FUNI 
 
 FOBFAR - 
 
 Glamokgan 
 
 Gloucester 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 5!- 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 5 
 5 
 
 7 
 
 9 
 
 11 
 
 15 
 
 17 
 
 181 
 2" 
 
 8 
 10 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 16 
 19J 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 1st Adm. Bait, l 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt 
 
 374 
 
 40 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt, 
 
 355 
 
 89 
 55 
 
 297 
 52 
 71 
 26 
 
 
 70 
 
 1 I 70 
 
 2 1 163 
 
 la 
 
 lag 
 
 No. of 
 
 
 
 Arm in 
 
 Total 
 
 Total 
 
 each 
 Countv. 
 
 1362. 
 
 1861. 
 
 Total 
 1860. 
 
 11 I 920 920 
 
 13:\ 
 
 9i 
 
 iH 
 
 4 
 10 
 
 266 
 
 621 
 
 433 
 
 630 
 
 1,684 
 
 40 
 
 4!iy 
 
 70 
 
 1,119 
 
 737 
 
 337 
 634 
 
 2,827 
 
 446 
 
 233 
 
 965 
 
 304 
 854 
 
 1,710 
 
 266 I 266 
 
 374 
 
 2,058 
 
 3,436 
 
 I i 
 
 -2,123 
 ! — i 2,802 
 
 1,720 1,455 
 
 261 226 
 
 1,940 
 
 1,680 
 
 3,226 I 1,892 
 
 2.296
 
 COI-XIY. 
 
 TO INQUIHE im:0 the COXDITIOX Ol' THE VOLUNTEKi; FORCE (N (JRF.AT BRITAIN 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — C07it. 
 
 Eiflc. 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 IIaduingiox 
 
 Hakis - 
 
 LiRht 
 Horse. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Km 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 - a 
 
 Slountcil 
 llillc. 
 
 
 
 1st AJm. Baft.! 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 11 
 13 
 35 
 16 
 18 
 
 4' 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 23 
 
 n 
 
 8 
 12 
 
 17 [. 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 10 
 19 
 U 
 
 IlAVEliFOKU- 
 ■\VEST - 
 
 Heueford 
 
 Hertford 
 
 Hdktingdon - 
 
 Inverness 
 
 11 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 r, 
 fi 
 
 1} 
 
 21 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 .■j 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
 12 
 
 Ut Adni. Brig. 
 
 Ut Adni. Batt. 
 
 2ndAclm. Batt. 
 
 3rd Adni, Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 n 
 
 I 
 
 I 
 
 Isle op Man 
 
 3 
 
 4 !- 
 5 
 G 
 7 
 
 1 
 
 n 
 
 2 
 3 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adni. Batt. 
 
 69 
 
 43 
 42 
 
 471 
 
 54 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 145 
 
 234 
 
 122 
 
 2| 
 
 Xo. of 
 
 .\rm in 
 
 eacli 
 County. 
 
 Total 
 
 is(!:. 
 
 6i 
 
 6i 
 
 2i 
 
 5i 
 
 509 
 
 69 
 
 509 
 
 447 
 
 507 
 
 504 
 
 401 
 SO 
 66 
 39 
 76 
 
 151 
 
 546 
 
 417 
 
 85 
 
 471 
 54 
 
 2,120 
 
 151 
 
 546 
 
 159 
 
 974 
 
 145 
 159 
 
 2i 
 
 501 
 
 234 
 
 .501 
 
 161 
 
 122 
 161 
 
 578 
 
 Total 
 18G1. 
 
 473 
 
 2,730 
 151 
 
 546 559 
 
 974 924 
 
 735 
 
 758 
 
 2S3 ! 237 
 
 Ee 3 
 
 213 
 
 Total 
 1800. 
 
 397 
 
 2,706 ' 2,552 
 166 
 
 494 
 
 639 
 
 304 3U4 228 
 
 SC9
 
 2U 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — cotU 
 
 COCNIT. 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Light 
 Horse. 
 
 Wg 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 So 
 
 Mounted 
 Rifle. 
 
 Rifle. 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 .• 
 
 
 OQ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 c 
 
 .2S 
 
 g 
 
 Is 
 
 each 
 
 a 
 
 a 
 
 3-y 
 II 
 
 1 
 
 o 
 
 Enrol 
 Mcmb 
 
 County. 
 
 Total 
 1862. 
 
 Total 
 1861. 
 
 Total 
 1860. 
 
 Isle of Wight 
 
 Kent 
 
 (Cinque Ports.) 
 
 KlNCASDlNE 
 
 KlKIlOSS 
 KlBCUDBEIOHT 
 
 aod 
 
 WlOTON 
 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 7 
 8 
 
 r 
 
 2 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 9 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 lO' 
 14 
 
 31 
 
 4 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 13 
 18 
 2.5 
 27 
 28 
 32 
 34J 
 11 
 14 
 17 
 23 [ 
 33 
 35 
 
 V 
 
 9 
 12 
 15 
 19 
 20 
 22 
 31 
 39 
 45j 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 16 
 24 
 29 
 35 
 37°1 
 38 
 40 
 41 
 
 42 ^ 
 
 43 I 
 44 
 
 3j 
 26 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 n 
 
 2 
 3 
 4(- 
 
 1st. dm. Batt 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt 
 
 4th Adm. Batt. 
 
 Sth Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 /withlstFiie"! 
 I Adm. Batt. J 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 n 
 
 760 
 
 402 
 280 
 
 123 
 25 
 35 
 28 
 
 6* 
 
 527 527 
 
 15 
 
 11 
 
 1,130 
 
 876 
 
 468 
 
 16 
 
 428 
 
 951 
 
 6i 
 
 n 
 
 495 
 
 534 
 
 1,442 
 
 4,230 
 
 211 
 
 495 
 
 534 
 
 583 
 
 5,672 
 
 706 
 
 5,692 
 
 723 
 69 
 
 5,969 
 (includ- 
 ing C. P.) 
 
 560
 
 ro INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 213 
 
 
 
 Enrolled Strong 
 
 th of the Volunteer Force on 
 
 the Ist of 
 
 April IS62— con f. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Light 
 Horse. 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Rillc. 
 
 Rifle. 
 
 No. of 
 
 
 
 
 County. 
 
 No. of 
 Corps 
 
 Organization. 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 || 
 
 i 
 
 i 
 
 
 a 
 
 It 
 
 i 
 
 II 
 
 Arm in 
 each 
 
 Total 
 1802. 
 
 Total 
 1801. 
 
 Total 
 1800. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 £a 
 
 J 
 
 £a 
 
 a 
 
 s 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 County 
 
 
 
 
 KiKCUDBKIGHT 
 
 1 
 
 _ _ . 
 
 _ 
 
 
 1 
 
 50 '- 
 
 
 t 
 
 
 
 50 
 
 
 
 
 — cont. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 584 ' 3C2 
 
 317 
 
 Lanakk - 
 
 11 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Ti 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 8 
 
 1st Ailm. Brig. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 15 
 
 888 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 52 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 940 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 105 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 - - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 66 
 
 
 
 
 
 171 
 
 
 
 
 
 16" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 42 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 44 
 52 ■ 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 6 
 
 496 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 56 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 57j 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 30" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 '' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 31 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 38 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 45 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 46 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 47 . 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 813 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 75 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 84 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 86 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 88 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 96, 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 37"| 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 55 
 73 ' 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 313 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9-*. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 , 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 16 
 
 989 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 9 
 
 579 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 - 
 
 — • 
 
 — 
 
 __ 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 10 
 
 616 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 . — 
 
 _ 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 12 
 
 783 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 19 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 . — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 15 
 
 924 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 25 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 
 531 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 29 
 
 - - _ 
 
 — 
 
 . — 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 83 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 32 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 — . 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 57 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 43 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 55 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 48 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 71 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 49 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 . — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 95 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 63 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 97 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 254 
 
 6,630 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7,741 
 
 7,920 
 
 7,455 
 
 
 
 Lancabtbh 
 
 I 
 2 
 
 n 
 
 2| 
 
 6 ■ 
 
 7 
 13 
 
 9' 
 12 . 
 17j 
 
 51 
 18 1 
 22 
 23 J 
 
 4 
 
 8 
 10 
 11 
 15 
 19 
 21 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 2nd Adm. Brig. 
 3rd Adm, Brig. 
 
 1 
 1* 
 
 58 
 95 
 
 lOj 
 
 8 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 8 
 1 
 6 
 2 
 4 
 4 
 
 650 
 
 501 
 
 425 
 
 535 
 452 
 58 
 367 
 103 
 265 
 269 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 153 
 3,625 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 
 64 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 - - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 97 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 161 
 
 
 
 
 Ee 4
 
 216 
 
 Couxir. 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862— fo?j^ 
 
 No. of 
 Coriiii. 
 
 LiRht 
 Horse. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 ArtiUei-}'. 
 
 ■a ?! 
 
 ss 
 
 i: 3 
 33 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 
 
 MouiUucl 
 IlifU'. 
 
 Kille. 
 
 No. of 
 
 i\rm in 
 
 each 
 
 County. 
 
 Kg 
 
 Total 
 1802. 
 
 Total 
 1861. 
 
 Total 
 1860. 
 
 Lancastku- 
 cotit. 
 
 Leicestsr 
 
 Lincoln 
 
 ei 
 
 27 
 
 28 
 29 
 31 
 33 
 40 
 41 
 42 
 4S 
 47 
 48 
 49 
 51 
 .H 
 56 
 62 
 65 
 67 
 70 
 73 
 74 
 76 
 77 
 78 
 80 
 82 
 83 
 64 
 71 
 
 6 
 7 
 9 
 11 
 12 
 19 
 20 
 
 3rd Adin. Hatt. 
 
 4th Adni. Batt. 
 
 5th Adm. Batt. 
 
 6th Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 10 
 
 4 
 
 13i 
 13 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 1 
 
 5 
 
 4^ 
 3" 
 2 
 2 
 
 e 
 
 9 
 1 
 3 
 6 
 10 
 1 
 2 
 
 
 
 8 
 1 
 1 
 5 
 1 
 4 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 3 
 1 
 1 
 6 
 8 
 1 
 1 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
 536 
 
 4.39 
 
 570 
 
 523 
 
 561 
 405 1 
 608 ' 
 885 I 
 349 
 250 I 
 
 69 
 297 
 134 
 
 85 
 .301 ; 
 253 1 
 195 
 128 
 450 
 639 
 
 ^7 
 221 
 382 
 731 
 
 63 
 125 
 146 
 530 
 
 71 
 
 65 
 532 
 
 59 
 257 
 
 90 
 
 70 
 
 63 
 
 74 
 
 66 
 182 
 
 64 
 
 43 
 556 
 646 
 
 13,207 
 
 636 
 
 812 
 
 636 
 
 17,146 
 
 636 
 
 17,961 
 
 638 
 
 12,713 
 
 405
 
 TO INCJUIUE INTO THE CONDITION OF TlIK VoLUNTEEK FOltCK IN CiUEVf HlilTAlN. 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — conl. 
 
 !17 
 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 Oi-g.aiiization. 
 
 Ho?so. ArtiUory. 
 
 EnRiuecr. 
 
 Mounted 
 Itillo. 
 
 Rillc. 1 
 
 No. of 
 
 
 Total 
 1861. 
 
 
 CouNir. 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 n 
 11 
 
 1 
 
 II 
 
 la 
 fig 
 
 3 
 
 
 1- 
 
 S 1 
 
 1! 
 
 i 1 
 " 1 
 
 II 
 
 ii 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 S 
 
 6 
 
 II 
 
 Arm in 
 
 eavh 
 
 Connty. 
 
 Total 
 1802. 
 
 Total 
 1860. 
 
 Lincoln- — cont. 
 
 3-~\ 
 5 
 
 8 y 
 
 15 
 
 isj 
 
 4"! 
 
 13 1 
 16 f 
 
 1] 
 2 >■ 
 3J 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 •J 
 
 1 
 
 3" 
 
 12 
 
 13 
 
 14 ■ 
 
 33 
 
 41J 
 
 26-1 
 
 42/ 
 
 16' 
 
 24 
 
 30 
 
 43 
 
 44 
 
 45J 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 4 
 
 9 
 11 
 13 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 28 
 29 
 32 
 36 
 37 
 38 
 39 
 40 
 46 
 47 
 48 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 !} 
 
 1 
 
 4 
 
 2nd Adin. Batt. 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 5tli Adm. Batt. 
 7tli Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 i 
 101 
 
 - 1 
 
 4 
 2 
 
 8 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 2 
 
 346 
 
 233 
 134 
 
 461 
 
 1 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 ) 
 
 1 
 
 85 
 698 
 
 — 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 6 
 
 4 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 16 
 
 4 
 12 
 
 8 
 2 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 11 
 G 
 
 8i 
 
 8 
 16 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 10 
 
 
 
 10 
 14 
 
 8 
 19 
 
 6 
 10 
 10 
 
 2 
 
 4 
 
 8 
 
 3 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 8 
 
 5i" 
 
 8 
 4 
 
 441 
 
 253 
 
 l,.->06 
 346 
 
 1,852 
 266 
 
 3,051 
 232 
 
 16,505 
 1,482 
 
 1,863 
 230 
 
 2,419 
 243 
 
 16,639 
 1,646 
 
 
 
 84 
 91 
 91 
 
 1,592 
 
 LiXLITHUOW 
 
 266 
 
 
 1,217 
 278 
 831 
 480 
 160 
 
 241 
 
 liONDOX - 
 
 85 
 2,966 
 
 
 53 
 
 56 
 
 123 
 
 562 
 
 427 
 
 614 
 
 561 
 1,237 
 280 
 583 
 440 
 673 
 115 
 702 
 1,041 
 520 
 1,503 
 772 
 497 
 773 
 112 
 297 
 606 
 235 
 636 
 564 
 576 
 68 
 484 
 
 In Mid- 
 dlesex. 
 
 118 
 
 MtBiONKTlt - 
 
 Middlesex - 
 
 232 
 101 
 
 828 
 698 
 
 14,878 
 
 
 463 
 138 
 
 
 
 372 
 
 449 
 60 
 
 12,922 
 
 MiriLOTIlIAN - 
 
 601 
 881 
 
 
 1 
 
 In Edin- 
 burgh. 
 
 
 
 Ff
 
 J18 
 
 CorsTT. 
 
 MOKHOUTH 
 
 MONIGOMEBT- 
 
 NiUBN 
 
 Newcastle- 
 on-Ttne 
 
 Norfolk 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — coiU. 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 NOKTHAMPTON 
 
 NOETHTIMBEE- 
 LAND - 
 
 Light 
 Horse. 
 
 Orpanization. 
 
 ■3 ■2 
 
 Si 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 eg 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Rifle. 
 
 Kg 
 
 Si 
 
 Eifle. 
 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 each 
 County. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2ndAdm. Batt 
 
 Itst Adm. Batt. 
 
 (CityofBerwick) 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 61 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 15 
 19J 
 
 7" 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 14 
 18 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 
 r 
 
 2 
 
 5 
 16 
 17 
 23 
 
 1 
 
 r 
 
 2 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8J 
 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 
 2' 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 10 
 IJ 
 
 Ist Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 105 
 
 125 
 
 205 
 
 229 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 i} 
 
 1st Adm. Batt 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 131 
 
 427 
 
 114 
 
 57 
 
 42 
 
 50 
 
 9* 
 
 3i 
 2i 
 
 6i 
 
 10 
 
 n 
 
 6* 
 
 486 
 
 452 
 
 696 
 
 373 
 149 
 
 18 
 
 705 
 
 369 
 
 Total 
 1862. 
 
 Total 
 1861. 
 
 105 
 
 1,634 
 
 522 
 
 125 
 18 
 
 205 
 131 
 705 
 
 229 
 42 
 
 289 
 
 422 
 
 412 
 
 HI 
 
 61 
 
 71 
 
 41 
 
 906 
 
 544 
 
 486 
 
 1,776 
 
 50 
 
 906 
 
 598 
 
 1,739 
 
 522 
 
 143 
 
 1,041 
 
 Total 
 1860. 
 
 1,729 
 
 401 
 
 170 
 
 1,065 
 
 2,047 
 
 956 
 
 1,030 
 
 1,628 
 
 761 
 
 234 
 
 104 
 
 In Nor- 
 thumber- 
 land. 
 
 2,065 
 
 944 
 
 1,488 
 
 446 
 
 1,474 1,716
 
 TO INQUIKK INTO THE CONDITION Oh' THK VOLUNTEER KURCK IN OREAT JiRFTAlN. 
 
 219 
 
 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force 
 
 on the 1st of April 1892 — co7ii. 
 
 
 
 
 Xo.of 
 
 
 LiRht 
 
 Horse. 
 
 ArtUleiy. 
 
 Enpucer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Rifle. 
 
 Biflc. 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 Total 
 
 Total 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 S 
 
 
 m 
 
 
 ■1 
 
 
 Total 
 
 Cor^TY. 
 
 Corps. 
 
 Or(,'aiiizatii)n. 
 
 t 
 
 -4 
 
 i 
 •c 
 
 it 
 
 ^i 
 
 'i 
 
 Ct, 
 
 11" 
 
 .Si 
 
 1 
 
 II 
 
 II 
 
 each 
 
 1862. 
 
 IHIII. 
 
 1S«0. 
 
 
 
 
 o 
 
 o 
 
 Si 
 
 
 si 
 
 
 Si 
 
 1 
 
 Si 
 
 n 
 
 £s 
 
 County. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 H 
 
 «a 
 
 S 
 
 «s 
 
 6 
 
 _wg_ 
 
 8 
 
 «a 
 
 S 
 
 MS 
 
 
 
 
 
 Nottingham - 
 
 •2'] 
 3 
 4 1 
 
 6 r 
 
 7 
 
 sj 
 
 1 
 5 
 
 Ut Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 10 
 
 1 
 
 494 
 
 908 
 80 
 
 1,482 
 72 
 
 1,482 
 
 1,511 
 
 1,181 
 
 Orkney 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 I 
 
 72 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 i 
 
 57 
 
 .'J7 
 
 129 
 
 133 
 
 145 
 
 Oxford - 
 
 0-1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 L 
 6f 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 H 
 
 50.J' 
 
 • 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 sJ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 ■ 
 
 — 
 
 —" 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 6 
 
 567 
 
 1 070 
 
 1,070 
 
 1,023 
 
 924 
 
 Peebles 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 63 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 7G 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 45 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 - - - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 184 
 
 184 
 
 264 
 
 178 
 
 Pembroke 
 
 1 
 
 _ - - 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 53 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 53 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ^ 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 ■** 
 
 324 
 
 324 
 
 
 
 
 
 4_ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 377 
 
 355 
 
 201 
 
 Perth - 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 • 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 . — . 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 12i 
 
 957 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 16J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Argyll 
 
 3 
 
 10 • 
 
 9. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 I'l 
 
 446 
 
 1,403 
 
 1,403 
 
 1.331 
 
 1,078 
 
 
 
 Radnor - 
 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 E 
 
 
 
 
 E 
 
 1 
 
 I 
 
 64 
 60 
 44 
 
 168 
 
 168 
 
 169 
 
 140 
 
 Renfrew 
 
 r 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 602 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 22 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 15 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 S 
 
 651 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 24_ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 16 
 19 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 
 581 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 - 1,834 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 23 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ■ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 25 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 78 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 56 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 52 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 186 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ~ 
 
 
 2.020 
 
 2,123 
 
 1,907 
 
 Ff 2
 
 220 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Voluutcer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — cont. 
 
 
 ^No. of 
 
 
 Light 
 Horse. 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Itille. 
 
 Eine. 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 Total 
 
 Total 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 to 
 
 o! 
 
 
 m 
 
 
 Total 
 
 COUXTT. 
 
 Corps. 
 
 Orgaiiization. 
 
 t 
 o 
 
 II 
 
 la 
 
 i 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 11 
 
 5 
 
 o 
 O 
 
 II 
 
 p. 
 
 s 
 8 
 
 n 
 
 la 
 
 each 
 
 County. 
 
 18B3. 
 
 ISGI. 
 
 1800. 
 
 Ross 
 
 1 
 
 1"! 
 
 2 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 72 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 72 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 • 
 
 1st Ailm. Eatt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 ii 
 
 330 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 68 
 
 398 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 470 
 
 4?1 
 
 420 
 
 ROXBUKGH 
 
 1"! 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 **( 1 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 ■ 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 636 
 
 636 
 
 63C 
 
 660 
 
 441 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Selkirk 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Salop - 
 
 1 
 
 1~ 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 152 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 152 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 . 
 
 1st Adm. Jiatt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 U 
 
 624 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 16 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 2nd Adm. Eatt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 
 574 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 18. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,198 
 
 1,350 
 
 1,345 
 
 I .n.io 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 64 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Somerset 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 ■ 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 105 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 169 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 ■ 
 
 1st Adm Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 6i 
 
 545 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 22J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 12 ■ 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 11 
 
 926 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 16 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ■ 
 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 26. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 41 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 19 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 _ 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 H 
 
 642 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 23 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 24 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 25 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 27 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,113 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,282 
 
 2,278 
 
 i,:7o 
 
 Stafford 
 
 •)"■ 
 
 . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 104 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 104 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 
 16 
 
 i- 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 12 
 
 1,101 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 28 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 36 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 37 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 38 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 40. 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 XO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 J21 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862— cont. 
 
 
 No. of 
 
 1. 
 
 ^l^}^^^ Artillery, j Lngincer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Rine. 
 
 Uillc. 
 
 No. of 
 
 Total 
 
 Total 
 
 
 
 
 1 _ 1 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 S 
 
 
 » 
 
 , 
 
 Vrm in 
 
 Total 
 
 Cor:!fTY. 
 
 Corps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 i 
 
 Unrolled 
 Jlembers. 
 
 Batteries. 
 
 II 
 if 
 
 1 
 
 11 
 
 i ! 
 
 u 1 
 
 11 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 Knrolled 
 Members 
 
 
 n 
 
 1:1 
 
 ;8(!2. 
 
 18CI. 
 
 18«0. 
 
 Stafford — 
 
 7^ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 cont. 
 
 8 
 19 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 ■ 
 
 2ua Adm. liatt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 t 
 
 570 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 24 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 25 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 39 J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13 1 
 
 3r(] Adin. P.atl. 
 
 
 
 _ 1 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 _^ 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 8 
 
 G58 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20 ' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 27 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 31 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 35J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 j 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5] 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 23 , 
 
 26^ 
 29 
 
 4tli Adra. I3att. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 _ 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 
 G54 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 30 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 32j 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 41 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 22}- 
 
 5tli Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 887 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 33] 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 i 
 j 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 34J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3,370 
 
 3,474 
 
 3,433 
 
 j 
 
 2,744 
 
 Stirli>-o 
 
 1 
 
 . - 
 
 _ 
 
 
 1 
 
 CI 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 - 
 
 — ' 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 70 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _ i;)i 
 
 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 •s 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 C • 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 1 — 
 
 10 1 
 
 990 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 • — ■ 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 76 
 
 1,072 
 
 1,203 
 
 920 
 
 
 
 
 720 
 
 SurFOi.K 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 69 
 40 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 , 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — ■ 
 
 — 
 
 109 
 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 13, 
 16 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 8 
 
 613 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 • 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 2ad Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 ' — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 6i 
 
 551 
 
 ( 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 ( 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 i 
 
 ! 
 
 
 
 
 
 12 
 
 ! 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 \ 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 41 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9 
 
 14 
 
 ■ 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 Gk 
 
 529 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 ! 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17_ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 - 1,693 
 
 1,802 
 
 1,777 
 
 1,300 
 
 SURUET - 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 .2" 
 
 4 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 !► 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1 
 
 } 84 
 
 1 
 
 3 
 2 
 
 177 
 180 
 
 2 
 
 148 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 84 
 
 357 
 
 148 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 7 
 
 542 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 26 
 
 J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 9 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 11 
 
 ■ 2nd Adm. Bat 
 
 t — 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 Gh 
 
 493 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 16 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ' 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Ff 3
 
 222 
 
 AI'PKNDIX To llEPORT OH" THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — cont. 
 
 COCNIT. 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 SURKET — cont. 
 
 Sutherland • 
 
 Sussex 
 
 Tower Ham- 
 lets. 
 
 Warwick 
 
 5^ 
 13 
 14 
 17 
 18 
 22 
 25 
 
 l' 
 
 7 
 10 
 12 
 19 
 21 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 9~1 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 15 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 13 
 14 
 18 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 4 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Liglit 
 Horse. 
 
 SS 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 .2 o 
 II 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 1% 
 
 «g 
 
 Mounted 
 Eifle. 
 
 Eifle. 
 
 a. 
 
 S 
 
 
 Westmoreland 
 
 WlOIOWK 
 
 3rcl Adm. Batt. 
 
 IstAdm. Brig. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 6J 
 
 1st Adm. Batt 
 
 8i 
 
 71 
 
 571 
 
 IstAdm. Batt. 
 
 116 
 
 1^ 
 
 55 
 47 
 
 In Kirkcudbright 
 
 ik 
 
 9* 
 
 12 
 
 4S5 
 
 542 
 475 
 178 
 347 
 37G 
 103 
 144 
 91 
 60 
 
 No. of 
 Arm in 
 
 each 
 County. 
 
 354 
 
 336 
 
 572 
 
 608 
 
 3,836 
 
 71 
 354 
 
 571 
 
 Total 
 1S62. 
 
 Total 
 1861. 
 
 Total 
 1860. 
 
 4,425 
 
 425 
 
 1,516 
 
 642 
 
 648 
 296 
 577 
 100 
 99 
 128 
 
 6.58 
 
 1,067 
 
 116 
 
 87 
 
 2,490 
 
 4,122 
 
 354 
 
 3,029 
 
 310 
 
 2,087 
 
 2,260 
 
 2,693 
 
 402 
 
 1,725 
 
 402 
 
 1,725 
 
 402 
 
 2,723 
 
 1,715 
 
 425 
 
 1,890 
 
 In Mid- 
 dlesex. 
 
 1,344 
 
 420 
 
 — ' 102 
 
 102 
 
 291 
 
 240
 
 TO INQUIUE INTO THi; CONWTIUN UF TllK VOLUNTEKK FOKCE IN GKi:\T IJRITAIN. 
 
 223 
 
 EuroUed Strength of the Volunteer Force on the Ist of April 1862 — cont. 
 
 County. 
 
 Wilts 
 
 Worcester 
 
 No. of 
 Corps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Light 
 HorsG. 
 
 Artillery. 
 
 ■Si 
 
 n 
 
 c a> 
 
 York, E. B. - 
 
 NR. 
 
 w!'r. 
 
 York, N. R. 
 
 York, W. R. - 
 
 1 
 o 
 
 6 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 13 
 
 14 
 
 3' 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 7 
 
 11 
 
 12 
 
 15 
 
 16 
 
 17 
 
 18 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 S 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 16 
 20_ 
 10=1 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 21 
 
 6 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 l' 
 
 1' 
 
 2 
 2 
 3 
 3 
 
 4' 
 
 1 
 
 2~1 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 11 
 12 
 14 
 15 
 18 
 19J 
 
 1 
 
 3 
 
 6 
 10 
 13 
 16 
 17j 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2ndAclni.Batt. 
 
 1 St Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Bat 
 
 Si 
 
 Kg 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 1st Adm. Brig. 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 ■a E 
 So 
 
 la 
 c o 
 
 fag 
 
 Mounted 
 UiHe. 
 
 427 
 
 482 
 
 441 
 
 464 
 253 
 249 
 
 Riflo. 
 
 = 1 s 
 
 CD g 
 
 Hi 
 
 Si 
 
 725 
 
 155 
 
 6 I 436 
 
 12 769 
 
 11 938 
 
 10 
 
 5i 
 
 No. of 
 
 Arm in 
 
 each 
 
 Count.v. 
 
 1,494 
 
 742 
 
 385 
 
 398 
 
 738 
 
 366 
 
 1,680 
 
 783 
 
 909 
 
 441 
 
 1,104 
 
 96G 
 
 591 
 
 Total 
 1862. 
 
 Total 
 1S61. 
 
 Total 
 186A. 
 
 1,494 
 
 1,680 
 
 1,692 
 
 1,545 
 
 1,506 
 
 1,604 
 
 1,508 
 
 1,924 
 
 1,267 
 
 1,351 
 
 1,268 
 
 1,522 
 
 Ff 4 
 
 ft
 
 22i 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 
 Enrolled Strength of the Volunteer Force on the 1st of April 1862 — cont. 
 
 
 No. of 
 Coi-ps. 
 
 Organization. 
 
 Light 
 H or.se. 
 
 Artilleiy. 
 
 Engineer. 
 
 Mounted 
 Rifle. 
 
 Rifle. 
 
 No. of 
 
 Arm in 
 
 each 
 
 County. 
 
 Totaa 
 1802. 
 
 Total 
 
 1861. 
 
 
 CorxTr. 
 
 t 1 
 8 
 
 
 1 
 
 ■Si 
 
 II 
 
 o 
 
 'H 
 & 
 
 S 
 o 
 
 11 
 
 Kg 
 
 .2 
 
 1 
 
 Q 
 
 ■§■§ 
 
 s Z 
 
 .2 
 
 o 
 
 II 
 
 la 
 
 Kg 
 
 Total 
 1860. 
 
 York, W.E.— 
 cont. 
 
 r 
 
 16 
 
 17 
 
 27 
 
 31 
 
 33 
 
 12' 
 
 15 
 
 23^ 
 
 25 
 
 26 
 
 5~ 
 28 
 29 • 
 30 
 38^ 
 18" 
 
 19 . 
 20 
 21. 
 o 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 f. 
 
 32 
 34 
 35 
 36 
 37 
 39 
 
 1st Adm. Batt. 
 
 2nd Adm. Batt.. 
 
 .3rd Adm. Batt. 
 
 ! 
 4th Adm. Batt. 
 
 _ 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 
 
 z 
 
 — 
 
 5 
 
 "i 
 
 4 
 
 7 
 6 
 9 
 4 
 9 
 
 14 
 
 679 
 
 542 
 
 445 
 
 320 
 
 628 
 
 430 
 
 584 
 
 355 
 
 665 
 
 64 
 
 1.34 
 
 106 
 
 78 
 
 85 
 
 85 
 
 5.220 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 [ 
 
 
 
 
 
 G 
 
 rand Total 
 
 11*562 
 
 38G 24,303 
 
 45 1 2,904 13 
 
 656 1,802 
 
 134,096 
 
 — 1 162,681 161,400 
 
 1 i 
 
 119,283 
 
 (3.) — Copy of Report.s fkom the Assistant Inspectors of Volunteers. 
 
 {FurnisJied by the Secretary of State for War.) 
 
 Sir, 
 
 Eilin'ourgli, 15th January 1862. 
 In reply to yoiu- letter, V Haddington 55, of the 13th 
 instant, enclosing a printed report of a conunittee appointed 
 by the county of Haddington, and calling upon nie for my 
 opinion of the present state of the rural volunteer corps, 
 with special reference to the points raised in the above re- 
 port, I have the honour to inform you that the financial 
 statement which the report contains is a fair type, in the 
 aggregate, of most of the rural corps in my division. 
 
 There are very few self-supporting corps. 'I'he 14th Aber- 
 deenshhe at Ta'rland, which is composed of two or three 
 farmers, and the remainder all labourers, paid for their ov.'ii 
 clothing and accoutrements. The Prince of Wales gave 
 them 201. to start with, but with the exception of a fevi' 
 pounds from their captain they have received no other pecu- 
 niary assistance, and this money has been exjjended on a 
 drill-Serjeant, and other incidental expenses. This is the 
 nearest approach to a self-supporting rural corps in my 
 division. 
 
 I am of opinion that one fourth only of the members in 
 the rural districts are self-supporting, about one half pay a 
 portion, and one fourth give nothing whatever towards the 
 expenses of theh corps. 
 
 The 7th Kincardineshire at Durris, numbering about 75 
 members, composed of a few fanners, and the remainder 
 labourers, are entirely sujiported by Captain Mackenzie, 
 who rents the house on the estate on which the men are 
 employed ; and should he leave the country the corps 
 would certainly fall to pieces. There are about eight or 
 nine other corps similarly circumstanced. 
 
 Many of the corps are supported by the proceeds of 
 bazaars and vohmtary contributions in the neighbom-hood ; 
 but I am of opinion that the mode of raising funds by 
 bazaars is not popular in Scotland, as it interferes vdih 
 charity ; it will, therefore, soon cease to exist. 
 
 Many corps are supported by voluntary contributions 
 alone. In neighbourhoods where the movement is popular 
 among the richest part of the inhabitants, ample funds are 
 obtained. In other parts of the country, where the move- 
 ment is not so pojjular among the rich, the people are 
 \\-dling to enrol themselves, but arc restricted from doing 
 so by M-ant of funds. 
 
 The officers commanding the riu'al corps are principally 
 the gentlemen of the county, several being retired officers of 
 the army; consequently these corps are better disciplined, 
 and are more under control than consolidated corps, which 
 ai-e chiefly officered from the leading tradesmen of the 
 town. 
 
 The rural corps do not generally mo\'e so smartly as 
 urban corps, but I consider that the material of which they 
 are composed would prove to be far the best, shoidd their 
 services be required. 
 
 Several of the first em'olled corps, which are the best 
 (billed, now require new clothuig ; and from personal com- 
 munication with the officers commanding these corps during 
 my last inspections I found that some were in debt, and 
 others with their funds so reduced, with little or no pros- 
 feet of fiu'ther contributions, that it v.-ill be impossible to 
 clothe them all. These corps, I fear, v.-ill gradually decrease 
 in numbers, and v.-ill eventually be broken up, unless some 
 pecuniary assistance is granted to them, such as that men- 
 tioned in the report. 
 
 I am of opinion that the mode of raising funds by assess- 
 ment, as suggested in the report, would be very unpopular 
 in Scotland just now, but I think that each countj- should 
 guarantee to the Government an annual sum, according to 
 its means, for a term of years, and that the Government 
 should grant a like sum. The fund so raised to defray the 
 expense of clothing, &c. Should this fund not be sufficient 
 for all existing expenses, the force in the county should be 
 reduced to a level with the expenditure. A quota might be 
 given for each county so as to keep the numbers in the 
 kingdom -n-ithin the limits required. I have very little fear 
 but that each county in my division would soon find suffi- 
 cient funds for the fuU quota, and that the mo\-cment would 
 be pennanent and efficient. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 (Signed) Douglas Jones, Major, 
 
 Ass' Insp' of Rifle Volunteers. 
 
 Inspector-General of Volunteers, 
 War Office, PaU Mall.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OK THK VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 225 
 
 Sir, Swansea, ITth January ISlii'. 
 
 With rofcrence t(l the War OHioc letter dated l.itli 
 January 1S(U, V lladdinfrtnii r>i>, contidontial, enclosinfr a 
 report of the committee appointed by tlic eoiinty of lladdiiifr- 
 ton, &c., &c., and caUinif upon me to give my opinion of 
 the present state of the rural \'olunteer corps in my division, 
 with reference to the points raised in the reuort in (juestion, 
 I have the honour to state, for the information of Sir (ieor}^c 
 C'ornewall I^ewis, that the ))oints raised by the committee, 
 and the o])inions expressed by them, are \-ery ajipropriate 
 to and Ijear with ecjual strength on the position of the 
 volunteer corps in ffeneral in my district ; and I am glad 
 to have the ojiportunity of cxjiressing confidentially my 
 feelincrs c<meerning the movement in Wales and MoMmonth, 
 and I beg to state that throiighout my district 1 have, in 
 general, observed a great difficulty in keeping the corps 
 together, in consequence of the falling off of subscri]itions 
 from the county families and other parties not inmiediately 
 connected with the x'olunteers, «ho at first were n'illing to 
 assist in supporting the mo\'ement, but when a second and 
 third subscription was called for they either withdrev>' their 
 sup])ort altogether or ga\'e it grudgingly, and as a tax. 
 
 In most cases the expenses fall nearly altogether on the 
 officers commanding the corps, the junior officers often not 
 being willing to give more than their time, and the expense 
 entailed by their outfit, &c., &c. Subscriptions from mem- 
 bers who, for the most part, are artizans and labourers, are, 
 as a rule, very difficidt to get in, and I look for«'ard with 
 some ajiprehension to my inspections this year, as I obser\-ed 
 symptoms of collapse in many corps ; more, it appeared to 
 me, from want of funds and means, than from an actual 
 unwillingness on the part of the volunteers to attend drills, 
 &c., &c. 
 
 I may add, as a rule, that in my cou\'ersations with 
 officers commanding corps, they invariably dwelt nmeh on 
 then- increasing expenses, in consequence of diminished 
 subscriptions, and they looked with considerable anxiety to 
 the time when it would be necessary to supply new uniforms 
 to their men, as they were, for the most |)art, paid for out of 
 the fii-st liberal subscriptions obtained ; the men themselves, 
 generally, only paying a small portion of the expense, even 
 of their first outfit. 
 
 From what I could discover dviring my tours of ins])ection 
 last year, there were not throughout my division half a 
 dozen corps actually with funds in hand, and where the 
 captain was not a man of means I felt very doubtful as to 
 their appearing again in any strength this year. 
 I have, &c., 
 (Signed) R. Roney, Major, 
 
 Assistant Inspector of Volunteers. 
 Colonel McMurdo, C.B., 
 Inspector of Volunteers. 
 
 l.'i, although I cannot suggest tlic i)recise manner in which 
 the dilficulties are to be met. 
 
 I have, fcr.. 
 (Signed) (i. 15. II.vum.vn, 
 Colonel McMurdo, C.H., 
 Inspector-Cieiieral of Volunteers, Major, L..V.I.\'. 
 
 War Oilire. 
 
 Sir, York, Kith January 1862. 
 
 I HAVE the honour to acknowledge the receipt of 
 your letter of the I'ith instant, with its enclosure (herewith 
 returned), and in rejjly to inform you, for the information 
 of Secretary Sir George Lewis, that I feel great diflidence 
 in giving any opinion as to the jiresent financial jiosition 
 of the county volunteer corps in the district under my 
 supervision, as at my several ins])ections I have never 
 investigated matters connected with the funds of any corps ; 
 hoivever, from general observation, and ^\'hat I haic been 
 informed privately, I am convinced that not more than one- 
 fourth, if as many, of the enrolled volunteers in the northern 
 di^■ision are self-sup))orting ; in most of tlie coimty corps 
 the clothing has all been furnished from fund.s raised by 
 donations of private individuals, and in no instance have 
 I heard of any pro\'ision being made for the reneH'al of 
 uniforms. 
 
 The artizans and labouring class consider that gi\'ing 
 their time and service is sufficient, and that they should not 
 be called upon for any subscriptions. 
 
 The corps funds generally are barely sufficient to meet 
 incidental expen.ses, and with such a state of things I 
 consider iiermanence cannot be reckoned on, though as 
 yet the county corjjs keep up their numbers, and have 
 generally more effective memliers tlian the town corjis in 
 proportion to their enrolled strength, in consequence of the 
 personal relations between officers and men being of a more 
 intimate nature (viz., as landlord and tenant) than is the 
 ease in towns. 
 
 There are no county volunteer funds in the north of 
 England, but in several instances battalion funds are being 
 raised, the principal object of which is to cov'er the expenses 
 of battalion assemblies, the continuance of which in 
 sufficient inimbers, cannot be ensured imless some sucli 
 provision is made. 
 
 In conclusion I folly concur in res'^lutions 11, li?, and 
 
 SiH, Liverpool, 17th .Tannary ISfi'J. 
 
 CoMPLvi.VG with the instructions contained in your 
 letters of the l.'ith inst., I have (he honour to acipiaint you, 
 for the inf(U-matiou of .Secretary the Right Hon. Sir(ieorge 
 Lewis, that the present state of the rural volunteer corps 
 in this district is, in a general sense, exemplified by the 
 under-mentioned remarks. 
 
 1. 'I'he original funds raised for the orgauization of a 
 \'olunteer force in this district are, in nearly every instance, 
 exhausted. 
 
 2. \ very great majority of the coni]ianies are not self- 
 snjjporting. 
 
 :i. In a(Wilion to the money originally subscribed for 
 clothing, &c., siq)])lementary contributions have been had 
 recourse to, for the ])urj)ose of meeting incidental expenses, 
 which have generally been fouml fur heavier than anticipated. 
 
 4. The average annual incidental expenses of a company 
 may he estimated at about 501. 
 
 .5. It is highly improbable the annual subscriptions ])er 
 company will exceed .")()/. 
 
 (>. No corps, as far as has been ascertained, is in a posi- 
 tion to meet any part of the exjiense atteiuling a renewal of 
 uniforms. 
 
 7. A very small jiroportion of the whole force is clothed 
 at their own ex])ense, and there is no prospect of com])anies 
 being able to raise the sum required for a renewal of uni- 
 forms. 
 
 8. The estimated cost of unifonns, exclusive of accoutre- 
 ments and great coats, is about .'i/. per head ; but if ])ro])er 
 judgment and the experience already gained were brought 
 to bear upon this ])oint, this amount might be reduced, 
 especially if cloth of one descri]ition and colour was selected 
 by each county. 
 
 9. In a general sense, the volunteer force of this district 
 is in a high state of efficiency, and this ajiplies cs])ecially 
 to the consolidated battalions, in which, with the assistance 
 of duly qualified adjutants and drill instructors, a prcqier 
 system of instruction has been established and carried out 
 in accordance with existing regulations. 
 
 10. A great majority of the ^•olunteer force in this di\-i- 
 sion is composed of men of the working classes, M'liich com- 
 prise labourers, artizans, operati\-es. Sec, and whose circum- 
 stances only admit of a ver}' small annual subscri])tion, and, 
 from the very dejiressed state of trade in the manufacturing 
 districts, many secessions are taking place from the inability 
 of meeting any pecuniary demand. 
 
 11. The volunteers have, upon all occasions, shown a 
 highly creditable sjiirit of discipline and obedience, and it 
 may be instanced that at the late Ne«'ton review in Lan- 
 cashire, where upwards of !),0()0 were assembled, the perfect 
 order and cheerful compliance with existing regulations 
 elicited a high encomium. 
 
 1"-'. It is considered in this important section of the 
 countiy most essential that the volunteer force should be 
 maintained ; but is unquestionable that a renewal of uni- 
 forms would entail its being broken up. Many corps will 
 shortly require new uniforms. 
 
 1.3. There is no jirospect of funds lieing again realized liy 
 donations, that source being, for reasons which it may not 
 be advisable to enter into, exhausted. 
 
 14. It is an almost unanimous feeling that an annual 
 subscrijition, ho«c\er small, shouhl be |)aid by every volun- 
 teer, and there is an earnest desire for (Jovernment aid to 
 ensure the ])ermanency of the mo\'emcnt. 
 
 15. The rural corjis in Cheshire are, jierhaps, financially 
 considered, in a more flourishing state than those in Lan- 
 cashire, princiiially in consequence of the former not being 
 so much affected by the fluctuations of trade. 
 
 I have also the honour to state that in submitting these 
 remarks I have assumed that it would jierhaps be con- 
 sidered as exceeding my instructions, if any suggestions as 
 to the most acceptable manner in wliich (iovernment aid 
 could be rendered to volunteers emanated from me, and for 
 obvious motives I have abstained from specifying reasons, 
 unconnected with pecuniary embarrassments, which, in my 
 opinion, are causing many secessions from the volunteer 
 force. , 
 
 Appending an ajiproximate annual abstract of incidental 
 expenses, I have, &c., 
 
 (Signed) II. IL M.v.vnkrs, Major, 
 
 Ass' In.spector of Volunteers, 6th Div"^ 
 Insjiector-Cencral of Volunteers. 
 War-Office, London.
 
 226 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION APPOINTED 
 
 Approximate Abstract of annual Incidental Expenses 
 for a Volunteer Corps of Ten Companies.* 
 
 £ s. d. 
 
 Orderly room (rent and taxes) - 50 
 
 Office commissionaire - - 26 
 
 Gas and coals - • - 3 
 
 Printing, advertisements, &c. - 15 
 
 Squad books, &c., &c. - - 3 
 
 Rent of rifle range - - - 40 
 
 Rent of drill ground - - 30 
 
 Drill sheds - - - - 70 
 
 Armouries - - - - 100 
 
 Repair of arms - - - 20 
 
 Repair and removal of targets - 15 
 
 Signal flags, &c., &c. - - 5 
 
 Uniform for drill Serjeants - - 9 
 
 Uniform for buglers - - 10 
 
 Carriage of arms, ammunition, &c 10 
 
 ^406 
 
 The above does not include the railway expenses of corps 
 having ranges at a long distance from head-quarters. 
 (Signed)" H. H. Manners, Major, 
 
 Ass' Inspector of Volunteers, 6th Div". 
 Liverpool, 17th January 1862. 
 
 Sir, Birmingham, 17th January 1862. 
 
 I HAVE the honour to state, for the information of 
 the Right Hon. the Secretary of State for War, in reply to 
 your letter of the 13th instant relative to the present state 
 of the volunteer force in my district, with especial reference 
 to the points raised in the report of the committee appointed 
 by the county of Haddington, that, although in the Midland 
 district there are no county associations (except for prize 
 shooting, &c.), or funds for the support of corps, each corps 
 l)eing dependent on itself and locality for support, yet the 
 chief points raised in the report are applicable to the volun- 
 teer force in the midland counties, especially the paragraph 
 at the top of page 3, with reference to the renewal of clothing. 
 There appears to be a feeling of anxiety as to what will be 
 the state of the force throughout the country at the end of 
 this yeai- when the present clothing is worn out, and as to 
 whatpro^asion will be made for the renewal of the same ; 
 that as a large majority of the force is composed chiefly of 
 men of the artizan and labouring class they should not be 
 called upon to conti'ibute more than their time and service. 
 It seems also that the general public do not furnish the 
 same amount of support which was freely given at the com- 
 mencement of the movement. 
 
 I have, &c.. 
 (Signed) J. S. T. F. Dick, Major, 
 
 Assistant Inspector of Volunteers. 
 Colonel McMurdo, C.B., War Office. 
 
 Sir, Grove House, Durdham Down, Bristol, January. 
 
 I HAVE the honourto acknowledge your letter, dated 
 W. O., 13th January 1862, marked V Haddington 55, and 
 in reply beg to state, for the information of Secretary Sir 
 George Lewis : — 
 
 From my observations and inquiries, made during my 
 tour of inspection in the five counties under my supervi- 
 sion, I have remarked that the chief expenses to which 
 volunteer corps are subject are, at present, driU instructors, 
 custody of arms, in many places rent for rifle practice 
 grounds, meeting for battalion drill. 
 
 The first of these, x\7.., drill instructors, will be provided 
 for when sufficient men are found, either by recommenda- 
 tion from the different corps now being drilled, or by 
 jjroperly instructed seijeants, sanctioned by the War Office. 
 
 These drill instructors, in most cases, would have charge 
 of the arms and ammunition, so that in future these two 
 causes of expense to volunteers would be obviated. 
 
 Rent for rifle practice grounds, I presume, cannot be 
 avoided. 
 
 Meetings for battalion drill are a source of great expense 
 to many corps. In the county of Cornwall the rifle associa- 
 tion allows every man one penny per mile for two battahon 
 meetings in the year, which I have been given to understand 
 covers their travelling expenses, the loss of a day's work 
 beino- the sacrifice which the volunteer makes for his 
 country. Refreshments are in many instances taken by 
 each company, the officers often providing the whole. I 
 have recommended havresacks being adopted, to enable men 
 to carry their own refreshments, and have seen my advice 
 followed with good effect at reviews, where sutlers generally 
 charge exorbitantly for provisions. In Devon no allowance 
 has been made by the association for battalion drills. The 
 expense has therefore fallen upon the volunteer, and con- 
 sequently two administrative battalions in the county have 
 never yet been drilled in battahon. 
 
 ♦ Applioalilf only to a consolidated battalion. 
 
 In many instances the captain bears the whole expense. 
 This cannot last. 
 
 In Somerset there is no association, all the e.xpense of 
 meeting in battahon being borne by the corps ; and although 
 some of the corps have long distances to the head-quarters 
 of their battalion, still there have been many meetings for 
 battalion drill, and one brigade drill during the past year. 
 
 In Wilts the association has not provided any assistance 
 for battahon cbiUs. The 1st battahon has met, the expense 
 being borne by the corps individually. 'ITie 2nd battalion 
 has not yet met. 
 
 In Dorset the corps have met several times during the 
 past year for battalion drills. The expense being, I believe, 
 partially borne by the association. 
 
 Other expenses to volunteer corps, such as targets, 
 signal flags, erection of butts, present clothing, &c., have 
 been borne by the original subscriptions, the expense of 
 keeping up all (except the clothing) after the first outlay 
 being comparatively small. 
 
 From occasional inquiries I have ascertained that many 
 of the rm'al corps are very nearly in a state of bankruptcy. 
 
 In the county of Cornwall many corps have recruited 
 their finances by getting up bazaars, the proceeds to be 
 vested in the captain for the benefit of the corps ; by this 
 means fi'om 150/. to 250/. has been raised by each corps, 
 which will enable, in many cases, uniforms to be provided. 
 In other counties I fear but httle has been thought of on 
 the question of renewal of uniforms. 
 
 My general impression is, that the volunteer corps which 
 are raised in towns, and some rural corps who have 
 enthusiastic and wealthy captains, will stand ; but that the 
 generality of rural corps, unless some assistance is given 
 to meet the expenditure attendant upon brigade and bat- 
 talion drills, and necessary field equipments in case of 
 ser\-ice, will, I fear, after all their funds are expended, gra- 
 dually fall off and finally disappear. 
 
 niis being the third year of the movement, I shall have a 
 good opportunity of testing the permanency of the force at 
 the coming inspections, when I shall pay particular atten- 
 tion to the financial state of the corps. 
 
 I have neglected to state that one administrative bat- 
 talion in Devonshire has proposed to have a battahon 
 association, which would be authorized to form committees 
 for a clothing fund, excm'sion fund, commissariat fund, and 
 prize shooting fund, so as to make the battahon self- 
 supporting. Should the ^objects aimed at by this associa- 
 tion be carried out, the system might with advantage be 
 imitated by other administrative battalions. 
 
 The principle of self-support seems to me to be only 
 apphcable to large towns. The class of men who volunteer 
 in country places being, to a great extent, artizans, and 
 many of the laboming classes. These men are now well 
 drilled and disciphned, but cannot afford to pay for attending 
 battalion drills, and new uniforms. 
 
 In conclusion, my impression is that the permanency of 
 the volunteer force will be tested when the corps in rural 
 districts require new uniforms. In to«Tis I imagine the 
 difficulties on that point will be slight in comparison. 
 Voluntary contributions are uncertain and not to be relied 
 on. I have, &c., 
 
 (Signed) GcsTAvus Hume, Major Unattached, 
 A. I. Volunteers. 
 Colonel McMurdo, C.B., 
 Inspector-General of Volunteers, 
 War Office. 
 
 Sir, 4, Onslow Square, S.W., 17th January 1862. 
 
 In compliance with the request in your letter of the 
 13th inst. (No, as per margin), enclosing the report of the 
 committee of Commissioners of Supply O;' the county of 
 Haddington, dated 25th November 1861, I have the ho- 
 nour to acquaint you, for the information of the Secretary 
 of State for War, that in my opinion the statements em- 
 bodied in the resolutions in that re])ort with reference to 
 the pecuniar}- difficulties of the volunteer corps in the 
 county of Haddington wiU apply with equal force to many 
 of the rural corps in the East Midland division. 
 
 Corps are certainly faDing ofl' in numbers, from the un- 
 willingness of some members, and the inability of others, 
 to continue the annual subscriptions to meet the expenses 
 of butts, targets, armouries, uniforms, &c. 
 
 There are certain corps supplied \i-ith ample funds en- 
 tirely by voluntary subscriptions, but I believe that further 
 assistance will be required from Government to ensure the 
 permanence and efficiency of many corps in the rm-al 
 districts. I have, &c. 
 
 (Signed) C. P. Ibbet.<!on, Lieut.-Col., 
 
 Assistant Inspector Volunteers, 
 East Midland Division. 
 Colonel McMurdo, C.B., 
 Inspector-General of Volunteers, War Office.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCE IN GREAT RRITAIN. 
 
 227 
 
 Sir, Farnham, 15(Ii January XSG'J. 
 
 I HAVE tlie honour to acknowlcdtti' the recci])t of 
 your letter, dated 13th instant (n\arked as aliove), enelosini; 
 a printed report of a committee of sui)ply of the eounty of 
 Haddinffton, as to the expenditure on account of the volun- 
 teers of that county, and askinij for my opinion on the 
 same subject, as regards the rural volunteer corps in my 
 division. 
 
 From my fii-st appointment to the volunteer force I have 
 carefully abstained i'rom inquiry into iinaneial matters. I 
 considered that this would be intruding myself into jirivate 
 affairs with whieli I was not called on to interfere; I am, 
 therefore, not able to speak with statistical accuracy t)n tlie 
 subject, but I have often con\-ersed in a general manner with 
 the volunteers on their jjrospects, and from what I have 
 gathered I am of opinion that, in the rural districts, expense 
 is the great source of fear to the \-olunteer cause. I think 
 that volunteers of all degrees find that the expense has 
 proved heavier than they ex))ccted. They were willing, 
 and are willing, to give up their time — to many money's 
 worth — and to take the trouble of learning their drill, and 
 to exjjend a certain amount of money in uniforms ; but they 
 have found that this is not all, that volunteer meetings 
 mean, besides drill, travelling, eating and drinking — ])lea- 
 sant, but expensive amusements — and I fear, therefore, that 
 when the suit of uniform now in wear is worn out, and 
 another must be got, many of the volunteers, though with 
 their hearts still thoroughly in the cause, will feel them- 
 selves called ujjon to resign. They will say, " I have learnt 
 " my drill; I am able, if the enemy invade us, to fall in in 
 " the ranks, and I will do so ; but meanwhile, in justice to 
 " my family, I cannot afford to spend as much money as 
 " I have been spending in volunteering." 
 
 Doubtless nuich of the expense has arisen from want of 
 judgment, s])ending money on useless things, such as bands, 
 feathers and shakos, and expensive viniforms, and the 
 coi'ps in which this has been done, will, I think, he the first 
 to give way ; but even where it has not, many members 
 will, I fear, retire when their present uniform is worn out. 
 
 I am, therefore, of an opinion similar to that at which the 
 Haddingtonshire committee has arrived, viz., that assistance 
 of some sort must be given in order that county volunteers 
 may be maintained. The committee recommend one of 
 three ways of rendering assistance : 
 
 1. Direct assistance from Government. 
 
 2. Assessment. 
 
 .'3. Combined assessment and Government assistance. 
 
 But all these methods appear to refer to pecuniary as- 
 sistance. 
 
 In this I venture to disagree with the committee. I think 
 assistance must be given ; I think Government should give 
 it, but not in money. 
 
 If the county are willing to assess themselves, that is their 
 affair, and it will be for them to see that the money is ])ro- 
 ])erly and economically ex])ended ; but I venture to think 
 it would be unwise that aid in money should be given by 
 Government. It would entail close examination of all the 
 volunteer accounts ; restrictions, irksome to the volunteers, 
 would have to be laid do«'n in order to ensure economy ; 
 and the mo\'ement would thus lose much of its volunteer 
 character, and the Government would find itself frequently 
 at variance with the feelings of the volunteers. 
 
 Additional aid i>i hind is, therefore, the description of as- 
 sistance which I would venture to recommend on the part 
 of Government. 
 
 The nature of assistance which Government might render 
 may be ranged under the foUowing heads : 
 
 1 . Arms and ammunition. 
 
 2. Drill instructoi-s. 
 
 3. Making of ranges. 
 
 4. Targets, &c. for ball practice. 
 
 5. Travelling expenses. 
 (). Clothing. 
 
 1. Arms and Ammunition have already been given. 
 
 2. Drill Instructors. — Much has lieen given, but there is 
 a class of corps in rural districts which requires this nature 
 of aid, and has not received it; viz., corps consisting of a 
 subdivision only ; these being weaker and therefore pooi'er 
 than a com|)any, require assistance more, but are not 
 allowed a drill instructor by existing regulations. I beg to 
 recommend most strongly that a drill instructor be allowed 
 to rural \-olunteer subdivisions. To save ex])ense he might 
 be only of the rank of corporal ; but that such corps should 
 have an instructor of some kind, I think essential. 
 
 3. Making of Rani/es. — Many cor])S have been j)ut to 
 great expense on this score ; some of the poorest have been 
 put to the most expense, such expense arising from purely 
 local causes, and through no e.xtravagance on the part of 
 
 the corps. 'I'o otlier corps, having Government rifle ranges 
 at hand, or from other local reasons, the expense has been 
 trilling. It apjicars to me l)Ut just that all sliuuld be put on 
 an e<piality, that it is most important that every corps 
 should have a range so that its members nuiy become fair 
 shots, and that this exjjense may most fairly fall on the 
 public, who are to be jirotectcd by the volunteers. To those 
 corjjs. therefore, that have gone to expense for ranges, 
 I would suggest that an allowance be made by (iovernmcnt 
 after the value of the work done luis been assessed by some 
 competent surveyor, ajipointed by (lovernmeiit ; and that 
 for the I'nture, when a range reipiires to be made, it should 
 be constructed by Government ; and as the nio.st ec(momical 
 method 1 would suggest that a non-commissioned officer of 
 lloyal Engineers be sent to su|)erintend the work. 
 
 4. Tartjets, Flags, fyc. for Ball Practice. — This also ap- 
 pears to me an expense which may fairly fall on the public. 
 Allowance on this head is already made to artillery volun- 
 teers, though not to ritlcmen. ] would, therefore, suggest 
 that the value of the munlier of targets, &c. which are 
 required by a corjis, according to the extent of its range, 
 be allowed to those corps which have already supplied 
 themselves, and that in future such stores Ije issued gra- 
 tuitously. 
 
 5. Travelling. — 'I'his becomes a very hea\-y item to some 
 corps, while others being near the head-(piarters of the 
 battalion do not feel it at all ; and jiroljably the distant 
 are also the poorer corps of the battalion. It seems fair 
 tliat the men «ho gi\-e up their day's \vork, and spend 
 many hours on the road besides, should not be called on 
 to pay also for conveyance to battalion drill. I am con- 
 vinced that this is the cause of the unfreipieucy of battalion 
 drills in rural districts. Battalion drills are most important 
 in the training of volunteers. I would then suggest tliat 
 an allowance of a penny a mile (the (ioverninent fare by 
 rail) per man be granted in rural districts to all corps 
 upwards of a certain distance, say six miles, from the place 
 of battalion assembly for a certain number of battalion drills 
 ])er annum, such allowance, of course, only to be granted 
 for the actual number of effective men who attended tlie 
 battalion drill, exclusive of bands, as jiroved liy the signa- 
 ture of the oiScer actually in command of tbe battalion 
 each day. 
 
 (j. Clothing. — In the clothing of the \'olunteers it has 
 always appeared to me that their distinct dilference from 
 the line is a disadvantage which has not been sufficiently 
 considered. It seems to me of very great importance in 
 case of invasion, that the volunteers should not be at once 
 distinguished from the line; that at a distance an enemy 
 ought not to be able to know the one from the other. 'I'he 
 great variety of uniforms of \-olunteers (even of corps be- 
 longing to the same battalion) is also a minor disadvantage, 
 and I think that both may be overcome, and really useful 
 aid in kind be given by Government, if a gratuitous issue 
 of a jjart of the clothing were to be made to volunteers. 
 
 Urban corjis, who are generally better off, might jirefer to 
 wear and be able to afford their jjresent uniforms, Init to 
 rural corps I think such an issue would be an acceptable- 
 present. There seems to be strong olijection on the part of 
 volunteers to be dressed in scarlet. This, I think, is natural. 
 It requires some little time for a soldier to become accus- 
 tomed to a red coat. People used to \\-ear sombre clothing 
 feel shy at a[ipearing in public in so striking a colour. 
 Scarlet is easily stained, and is conspicuous ; therefore, I 
 think, it would be unwise to insist on the volunteers 
 adopting red as their uniform ; but ])erhaps the option 
 might be given them, by battalions, on this point. 
 
 To the volunteers, I think, might be issued gratuitously ; 
 1. Cap. 
 2.' Blouse, red or grey. 
 
 3. Belts, &c. 
 
 4. Leggings. 
 
 1. Cap, of blue or grey cloth, or a low shako like that 
 lately is.sued to the rifle brigade, badge or ornament to be 
 added liy the corps. 
 
 2. Blouse, to be made of serge or some such inexpensive 
 stuff; loose, so as to be worn over the man's usual wai.stcoat, 
 or in cold weather over a coat, and to ro<|uire no fitting to 
 the indi\'idual. Two sizes would probably fit all men. 
 
 3. Belts, pouches, Sfc, of bi'own leather, recjuiring no 
 cleaning but soap and water. 
 
 4. Leggings, black, like those worn witli knickerbockers. 
 The volunteer would then only ha\-c to pro\-ide himself 
 
 with trousers (on actual service these might be of any sort), 
 boots, and under-clothing. 
 
 To insure uniformity with the line, I would beg to suggest 
 that to the regulars should also be issueil a grey blouse, 
 instead of the present red fatigue jacket, which is a iioor 
 
 Hh
 
 228 
 
 .iPPKNDIX TO KEPORT OF THE COMMISSIOX APPOINTED 
 
 skimpy garment, cold in winter, and from its tightness very- 
 unfit ior hard fatigue duty. The blouse «-ould pack away 
 easily in the knapsack, and in case of invasion, by putting 
 it on over the red coat, it would be impossible for the enemy 
 to know the regulars from the volunteers. If those regi- 
 ments lately returned from India and China (the Bull's and 
 60th Rifles, for instance) be consulted on this point, I feel 
 sure they can tell from experience what a comfortable dress 
 the blouse is, and how glad they would be to wear it again. 
 
 If in the above remarks I seem to lie interfering with the 
 dress of the regular army— a subject on which I have not 
 been consulted — I beg to state, as my excuse, my anxiety 
 that in the day of trial the regulars and volunteers may 
 appear ahke, and with the objection of the volunteers to 
 red, I see no other method of ensuring this desii-able end. 
 
 To ensure due care being taken of the clothing issued, I 
 think that on its receipt a proportion of its value should be 
 deposited by the volunteer with his captain, and by the 
 captain wath the Government, to be forfeited in case of 
 neglect, or if the volunteer should leave the corps under a 
 fixed period, and to be returned to him if at the expu-ation 
 of the time the clothing is calculated to last the volunteer 
 wishes to retire from the volunteer service. 
 
 I hope it may not be considered that I have gone into 
 unnecessary detads on the subject on which my opinion was 
 asked. I think that assistance should be rendered by 
 Government, and being firmly of opinion that it should be 
 in kind and not in money, I have endeavoured to show 
 plainly how I think it may best be done. 
 
 If with such assistance 'as I have suggested the volunteer 
 movement should die, I fear that die it must; but even if 
 it should, we are in a better position than before its birth, in 
 that those who have learnt their drill can never thoroughly 
 
 forget it, and will always be more ready for the ranks than 
 if they had never lieen in them. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 (Signed) R. G. A. Luaud, Lieut. -Colonel, 
 
 Assistant Inspector, S.E.D. 
 Colonel McMurdo, C.B., 
 Inspector-General of Volunteers. 
 
 Sir, Head-quarters, Glasgow, I/th January 1862. 
 
 In reply to your letter of the l.'ith instant, number 
 as per margin, enclosing the report of a committee appointed 
 by the county of Haddington to inquire into the financial 
 position ot the county volunteer corps, I have the honour 
 to report, for the information of the Secretary of State for 
 War, that my opinion and firm belief is, that v>-ith one or 
 two solitary exceptions, the whole of the rural corps in this 
 division are not entirely self-supporting, but in a great 
 measure dependent on annual subscriptions from honorary 
 members and others, donations, &c., &c. for the requisite 
 funds; and when the present uniforms are worn out there 
 will be much difficulty in having them renewed, and it is 
 to be feared there will be a considerable diminution in num- 
 bers in many corps in consequence. 
 
 I beg to enclose the " Annual Report of the 7th Dum- 
 frieshire Rifle Volunteers," showing its financial position, 
 and which may be taken as a fair criterion of the state of 
 the other corps in that county, but it should not be inferred 
 from this that all the other rural corps in the several coun- 
 ties of this division, are as equally independent. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 (Signed) R. Young, Major, 
 Inspector-General of Volun- Ass' Insp' of Volunteers. 
 
 teers. War Ofiice. 
 
 U.)— Copy of a Letter from Lieut.-Colonel Acland, on the Provision of Drill Instructors, &c. 
 
 {Furnished by the Secretary of State for War.) 
 
 There are, however, other duties of a military nature, 
 such as the custody and cleaning of arms, assisting at 
 battahon or skeleton drill, and at target practice, which 
 may be usefully performed by an old soldier of good 
 character, although he be incapable of acting alone as a 
 drill instructor. It conduces, no doubt, much to the sta- 
 bility and good order of a volunteer corps that the services 
 of a man accustomed to military discipline should be 
 engaged for such purposes; and local arrangements of this 
 kind can be made in many parts of the country at a 
 moderate cost. 
 
 I do not venture to call in question the military or finan- 
 cial reasons which may influence the Government, in de- 
 siring to retain permanently the services of a staff of 
 qualified drill instructors by payment at a uniform rate per 
 diem ; but (without saying more on the scarcity and con- 
 sequent high value of such men at present) I think that 
 little reliance is to be placed on the sanctions of mifitary 
 law, and the super^•i5ion provided in the volunteer regula- 
 tions, 159 A, 16U A, 161 A, for ensuring the zealous training 
 of volunteers, in comparison with the moti^'es afi'orded by 
 the prospect of fuU employment on liberal terms, or by the 
 fear of losing an engagement in consequence of not giving 
 satisfaction to immediate employers. 
 
 I therefore venture to suggest (at least as a temporary 
 expedient) that, in the provision of personal militaiy assis- 
 tance to volunteer corps, the tw^o kinds of mditaiy dxity above 
 distinguished be separately dealt ^'ith ; and that market 
 prices and local circumstances be, more than heretofore, 
 regarded in the aid given towards drill instruction. 
 
 I have not sufiicient knowledge of official practice to 
 propose regulations in detail, but the following proposals 
 appear to me in substance adapted to the circumstances 
 falhng under my own observation : — 
 
 1. 'fliat commanding officers of detached corps be per- 
 mitted to apply either for aid towards the payment of an 
 occasional drill instructor ; or for aid towards the payment 
 of rethed soldiers, qualified for the duties above referred to, 
 as not requiring for their discharge a superior drill instruc- 
 tor ; or for aid towards both objects'. 
 
 That' the aid for either object should not exceed the 
 allowance for a temporary drill instructor specified in regu- 
 lation 163 A. 
 
 That, if aid be granted for both purposes, the total 
 amount of aid should not exceed the allowance for a Serjeant 
 instructor in regulation 152 A. 
 
 2. That the greatest possible latitude (within prescribed 
 limits) for settling the terms of the engagement with a drill 
 instructor, or other retired soldier, be left to the command- 
 ing officer of each corps, who, as one of them has well said, 
 " can make a pound go much further than the Government 
 " can ;" and especially that full powers to teniiinate an 
 
 Sprydoncote, Exeter, 
 My Lord, Mai-ch 11, 1862 
 
 I BEG leave to submit to your Lordship, for the con- 
 sideration of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for >Yar, 
 some remarks on the local working of the Volunteer Regu- 
 lations 147a to 167a, and also some suggestions having 
 for their object to enable scattered corps to obtain, without 
 further delay, some aid towards the expenses of good drill 
 instruction. 
 
 Before making the following representation to your 
 Lordship, I have deemed it advisable to summon a meeting 
 of the officers of corps composing or attached to the 1st 
 administrative battahon, and I may say, that they generally 
 concur with me in thinking some change in the present 
 arrangement deshable ; nor is this concurrence confined to 
 the officers of my own battalion. 
 
 The majority of the corj)s under my command, that is, 
 seven out of ten, have u)i to this time been unable to derive 
 any assistance from the Parliamentary grant. In two of the 
 other three corps the appointments made are so far not 
 satisfactory that the officer of a subdivision contiguous to 
 those two corps feels that it would be a disadvantage to his 
 corps to be drilled by either of the two instructors paid by 
 the Government. 
 
 Commanding officers have been informed that the appli- 
 cations for drill instructors are so numerous that there is 
 httle probability of the supply being equal to the demand 
 for some time to come. 
 
 It is further stated, that re&Uy well-qualified drill in- 
 structors are unwilling to accept the terms offered to them 
 by the Government for the duty of drilling volunteers, and 
 prefer other situations affording greater advantages. 
 
 Some officers are unwilhng to deprive their corps of the 
 services of Serjeants of militia, who are unquestionably good 
 instructors, and under whom their corps have made rapid 
 progress. They are not unreasonably apprehensive of the 
 risk that Serjeants unsuited to the dut)- of drdling volun- 
 teers may be permanently posted to their corps. Wy own 
 experience has taught me the extreme caution necessary in 
 estimating recommendations of Serjeants from the army. 
 And, therefore, although I am fortunate enough to have 
 myself the services of one verj- good serjeant, I do not 
 think this apprehension unreasonable. 
 
 It is an important element in the case of administrative 
 battalions (both as regards discipline and expense,) that 
 the whole time of a highly qualified driU instructor is not 
 required by any one detached corps. In ordinary cases an 
 attendance" once a week, in some cases less, would suffice. 
 The services of a good instructor, if paid for according to 
 the market vahie in this neighbourhood, at the current 
 rate of about 5s. per drill, need not cost more than from 
 12/. to 2U. per annum.
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO TUF. OONDITIOX OF THE VOLl'NTEKR EORt'E IN OREAT BRITAIN. 
 
 229 
 
 engagement, which proves unsatisfactory, be given to such 
 
 offirers. 
 
 ii. That the adjutant and the field oftlcer he lield respon- 
 sible for giving to the Government, through the assistant 
 inspector, their explicit opinion upon each arrangement 
 proposed by the commanding officer of a corps, and on the 
 qualifications of the person or persons ])ropused to be em- 
 ployed, both when application is made for aid, and also 
 when the renewal of the aid is ap))lied for. I assume that 
 the arrangement I ])ropose, will, if adopted, be treated as 
 jirovisional and temporary. 
 
 4. That, with a view to give full force to the foregoing pro- 
 posals, and to supply to volunteers generally, and especially 
 to officers, an adequate motive for concentrating their 
 efforts on the attainment of real efficiency, the continuance 
 of aid, whether in the way of ammunition, drill instruction, 
 or otherwise, to anj' corps be contingent on the fulfilment 
 by its members (or by a proportion to be determined by 
 local circumstances), of certain conditions as to attendance 
 at drill, or as to certified proficiency, and as to systematic 
 musketry instruction and target practice. And that adju- 
 tants and field officers be responsible for obtaining sufficient 
 records of these facts. 
 
 The foregoing proposals would, in my opinion, lead to 
 the following advantages : — 
 
 The officers and non-commissioned officers would be 
 from time to time thrown on their own I'esources, as the 
 occasional instructor could not always be at hand, and 
 must, for his own ci-edit, try to make them able to act with- 
 out him. 
 
 The adjutant also, while coUecting and digesting infor- 
 
 mation as to the jirogress of his battalion, could at th*^ 
 same time supply a motive for emulation, as, for example, 
 in reference to the figure of merit in shooting. 
 
 Considerable efforts have been made in tliis country (aqd 
 elsewhere) to systematize the action of administrati\e batta- 
 lions, and to methodize the arrangements for llie drill and 
 shooting of companies, with a view to prevent that waste of 
 time without a definite object, which is more dangerous to 
 the permanence of the volunteer system among the middle 
 classes, than any want of [)ccuniary aid from the public 
 funds. 
 
 I beg leave to express my own strong conviction that if 
 the Govemnient will require the jiublic aid to be earned by 
 results, they will do nuuli to support the efforts of officers 
 in the direction referred to ; while if a number of vested 
 interests arc created by stereoty])ed ap|)(>intments, volunteer 
 officers will be left to extract work from old soldiers de- 
 prived of adequate motives for exertion. The position of a 
 Serjeant instructor of volunteers has httle in common with 
 that of a regimental serjeant in the regular service, and is 
 full of temptation to indolence. 
 
 I have only to add, in conclusion, that many corps arc 
 now earnestly engaged in a course of sjjring drill. 
 
 Should the Government entertain the above proposals, 
 an early indication of their intention to assist in providing 
 the expenses of the only drill instniction at present avail- 
 able would have a very encouraging effect. 
 I have, &c. 
 T. D. AcLANU, Junr., 
 
 Lt.-Col., 1st. Adm. Bat. 
 
 Devon Rifle Volunteers. 
 
 (5.) — Copy of a Letter from the Honble. E. C. Curzon, on Cadet Volunteer Corps. 
 
 ■ {Furnished by the Secretary of State for War.) 
 
 My Lord, Whitehall, 31st March 1H62. 
 
 With reference to the interview I had %vith your Lordship 
 on Saturday last, on the subject of the volunteer cadet 
 corps being recognized by the Government, when you de- 
 sired me to embody the substance of our conversation in 
 writing, 
 
 I have to submit for the consideration of the Secretary of 
 State for War — 
 
 1. That cadets have been enrolled up to the age of 16, 
 and formed into corps attached to several of the volunteer 
 rifle regiments, wearing the same uniforms, and subject to 
 the rules of these regiments. 
 
 2. That drill instructors have been sjiecially provided for 
 them, paid out of the funds subscribed by them. 
 
 3. That cadet corps ha^'e been raised and formed in the 
 country by the exertions and to a considerable extent at 
 the expense of private individuals which are not attached to 
 any volunteer battalion. 
 
 4. That some large schools have, through the exertions of 
 their heads or go\'ernors, become remarkably efficient in 
 company and battalion drill, but have not yet been put into 
 uniform or attached to any volunteer battalion. 
 
 5. That the cadet corps have been formed mainly for the 
 purpose of filling up the ranks of the adult volunteers. 
 
 6. That the propertraining of youths while cadets, whereby 
 they must acquire habits of self dependence, submission to 
 authority and command, eminently qualifying them for any 
 position they may hold in after hfe, either in the army, 
 volunteers, or otherwise, is of the highest importance to the 
 country. 
 
 To give encouragement and permanence to this force, I 
 have the honour to submit that — 
 
 1. Superior officers (probably as supernumeraries) might 
 be commissioned to have the special charge of the cadets. 
 
 2. Subordinate officers might be commissioned, subject 
 to the exigencies of the service, depending on the numbers 
 and localities of the cadet corps. 
 
 3. That arms should be jjrovided for them (the Irish con- 
 stabulary carbine now used is supjilied to them at 7s. each 
 by the Government), and a limited number of small riHes for 
 ball practice for the senior youths who have passed through 
 their musketry instruction. 
 
 4. That at the annual reviews or inspections an officer 
 might be authorized to attend and report on their progress. 
 
 5. That a proper certificate of efficiency should entitle a 
 cadet competing for admission to any Government employ- 
 ment or academy to a certain number of marks. 
 
 There are many deputy lieutenants and magistrates who, 
 like myself, have taken an active part in attesting and or- 
 ganizing volunteers, and I venture to suggest that through 
 them, as well as commanding officers of volunteers, the 
 names of gentlemen to whom parents would be willing 
 to entrust the miUtary control of their sons, and who would 
 undertake the seriously responsible duties of commandants 
 of cadets might be easily ascertained. 
 
 If some such recognition of the existence of cadet corps 
 were made there can be no doubt that, in consequence o 
 the feeUngs of self respect to be acquired by the youths from 
 being officially connected with the Government, there would 
 be a considerable increase in their nimibers, and with very 
 great national advantage. 
 
 I have the honour to be, &c. 
 E. C. Curzon, 
 President of the Committee, 
 2nd (South) Middlesex Volunteers. 
 
 'ITie Right Honourable 
 
 The Earl de Grey and Ripen. 
 
 (6.) — Letters addressed to the Chairman of the Commission. 
 
 (From the Duke of Manchester.) 
 
 Great Stanhope Street, W., 
 My dear Lord Eversley, 2nd July 1862. 
 
 I GREATLY rcgrct that, having mislaid the commu- 
 nication I received from the Secretary to your Commission, 
 I have inadvertently neglected to comply with the request 
 therein expressed. 
 
 But, apart ft'om the seeming discourtesy, of which I am 
 ashamed, my absence cannot have been of much conse- 
 quence. For, unless there were any questions from you to 
 which I could have furnished you with replies, there were 
 few suggestions of my own which I had to make. I 
 should have stated my entire agreement with «hat was 
 on one occasion said by the Earl of EUenborotigh to the 
 effect that it was desirable that \-olunteer corps shoidd have 
 opportunities of seeing other corps manoeuvre — especially 
 
 that they should see regular troojis at drill. This is even 
 more necessary for scattered provincial corps than for those 
 in large towns. But this can scarcely be carried out to an 
 adequate extent at the exi)ense of the vohmteers them- 
 selves. If possible, all the cost, or at least a portion of the 
 cost of their military instruction, ought to be borne by 
 the community ; either by local rates, or by jiayments from 
 the national Exchequer; and in this instiuction I should 
 include the assembling of volunteers for combined move- 
 ments, at military stations where that is practicable. 
 
 I am further of opinion that any contributions towards 
 volunteer expenses should be made towards the regimental 
 funds for regimental expenses, and not as payments to 
 individuals. 
 
 Another way in which it seems to me that volunteers
 
 230 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE COMMISSION ON THE VOLUNTEER FORCE. 
 
 might, most unobjectionably, be assisted is b> supplying 
 them from the Government stores, not only with the mate- 
 rials for clothing, but with the articles of clothing and 
 equipment made up at cost price. For local tradesmen 
 make but little difference between the cost of making up 
 materials and that of supplying the whole. 
 
 But then I am of opinion that, if volunteer corps accept 
 more assistance from the State, they should be prepared to 
 give more service, not limiting it to the case of actual or 
 threatened invasion. The more they receive, the more they 
 should resemble the position and lial)ilities of the yeomanry 
 and militia. I think this liability to service might vary in 
 different corps according to the pecuniary assistance each 
 wishes to receive. For the members of some corps are in 
 
 such a position as to require but Uttle assistance, and they 
 would proljahly be put to great inconvenience if they were 
 called out for service on any but the last emergency ; 
 while others might be ready to act even in case of local 
 disturbances. 
 
 If there are any other points on which you wish to know 
 the results of my experience, I shall esteem it an honour to 
 place it at your service. In the meantime allow me to 
 repeat my regrets at my seeming want of attention, and 
 to assure you that, 
 
 I remain, &c. 
 
 Manchester. 
 The Viscount Eversley, 
 &c. &.C. 
 
 (From Captain Darby.) 
 
 My Lord, Markly Hurst Green, July 17th 1862. 
 
 I AM desirous that there should not be any mis- 
 apprehension respecting the rephes which I gave to Major 
 Hareourt before the Royal Commission. The proper un- 
 derstanding of my answers to his questions depends upon 
 the signification which may be attached to the word " orgi- 
 " nization ;" if the sense in which I l)elie\'e the word to have 
 been used by him and accepted by me, be adopted, I have 
 no desire to qualify any one of my answers. I did not 
 intend to imply that the authority which was delegated by 
 the Crown under the Volunteer Act should, as regards 
 artillery volunteers, be taken out of the hands of those to 
 whom it was so delegated, and transferred to other au- 
 thority, but it being admitted that the constitution of both 
 artillery and rifle volunteers must be identical, that the 
 organization of the one, under that constitution, requires to 
 be very different from that of the other. To render an 
 artillery corps efficient each man must acquire a knowledge 
 of the duties belonging to each member of a detachment 
 in the various operations incident to the work which an 
 artilleryman ought to perform with safety to himself and 
 others '; these can only be learnt in batteries which are 
 under the command of an officer of Royal Artillery, to whom 
 are intrusted, and who is responsible for, all the stores and 
 appUances essential to proper instruction as well as to the 
 ])erformance of an artilleryman's duties on active sernce. 
 I think to be in constant communication with those versed 
 in the scientific knowledge applicaljle to this branch of 
 the service, and in constant practice of the active duties 
 belonging to it, is of incalculal)le benefit to the artdlery 
 volunteers ; and as the possibility of their being called into 
 
 active service is contemplated by the very act of their enrol- 
 ment, the more the Volunteers act in concert with the Royal 
 Artillery ihe greater confidence will they feel in each other, 
 and the greater will be the use of the volunteers should they 
 be called out on service. It seems to me, therefore, necessary 
 for the officer of Royal Artillery commanding the district to 
 be well acquainted v.dth the number of artillery volunteers 
 within it, and their state of efficiency in every particulai', 
 and that an intimate connexion should exist between him 
 and the officers commanding the artillery volunteer corps 
 in his district, as the Volunteers now constantly and readily 
 assist the Royal Artillery when the latter are short of 
 numbers, and as no one can shut his eyes to the fact that 
 in case of any emergency a large body of Volunteers, at 
 least on the south coast, would be required for service. 
 
 It seems to follow that the commanding officer of the 
 district ought to have every means of obtaining such infor- 
 mation as will enable him to form his own estimate of the 
 state and value of the artillery corps in his district. It was 
 under these impressions I gave the answers I did when 
 before the Royal Commission, which I know conveyed the 
 feelings of those under my command, given under the 
 conviction that should the connexion between the Royal 
 Artillery and the Volunteers be in the slightest degree in- 
 terrujited, and which I stated I was mlling to have in- 
 creased, I sliould see no way of maintaining an efficiency 
 which would justify the expenditure of the time, trouble, 
 and money necessary to keep up a corps. 
 
 I have, &c. 
 Viscount Eversley, &c., &c., Chairman, G. Darby. 
 
 Roval Commission, Volunteers. 
 
 (From Colonel Cuppar/e, R.A.) 
 
 My Lord, The Castle, Dover, July l/th, 1862. 
 
 I H.WE always considered myself so identified with 
 the volunteers of this district, and have from the beginning 
 felt it so important a movement ibr oneself, that I have 
 ventured to place before your Lordship the substance of a 
 letter I nTote some time back when I thought I might be 
 called before the Commission, among the members of which 
 I anxiously sought, when first fbmied, for the name of an 
 artillery oiflcer, knowing that, however magnificent for the 
 country at large the general feeling was, it was essentially 
 the artillery that must benefit most by it. I am satisfied 
 no half and half measiu'e can ever make them what they 
 can and ought to be ; though constitutionally under the 
 War Office, they should be as much as possible under those 
 who eventually must be their commanding officers, and 
 under whose responsibiUty they must act ; besides, more 
 than ever it is essential that a feeling of confidence and 
 good-will should exist between volunteers and those to 
 whom they are to look in time of need, and those who are 
 to benefit by their exertions, and, therefore, the closer that 
 their connexion can be brought the better : — 
 
 " It can be no trouble to a commanding officer in com- 
 mand of a district, on his usual round of inspection, to 
 identify himself with the volunteers about his several forts 
 and batteries. At least I have never found it any, and have 
 always asked for and used them in aid of those inspections. 
 Neither can it be trouble in a well-regulated officer, with 
 
 clerks accustomed to military routine, to receive and keep 
 those reports and returns which must and ought to be at 
 once at hand, to enable the commanding officer to regulate 
 his demands of stores and ammunition for the several 
 corps in his command. 
 
 " It must be manifest to any officer holding the resjjon- 
 sibility of such a district as this (extending fi-om the North 
 Foreland to Shoreham, and vulnerable at every point) the 
 value of such intefiigent drilled auxiliaries as they are 
 becoming, for it must be perfectly known that the country 
 could not afford an adequate portion of trained artillery to 
 the hunth'eds of guns which its sea-girthed line would 
 obUge to be more or less in a constant state of preparation. 
 It is this conviction which has ever led me (from the first 
 moment Mr. Henrj- Catt spoke to me at Brighton, during 
 my inspection of 1859, on the possibility of forming what 
 has since extended all over England) to endeavour to aid 
 their advancement and foster a kindly feeling between 
 them and the artilleiy. For myself, I would fearlessly rest 
 on their services ; but then, to make it effective, they must 
 be amenable to command." 
 
 I have, &c., 
 (Signed) Burke Cuppage, 
 Colonel Commanding the Royal Artillery, 
 South-Eastern District. 
 
 The Right Hon. the Viscount Eversley, 
 &e. &e. 
 
 LONDON: 
 Printed by Gkorge E. Eyee and Willi.vm Spottiswoode, 
 Printers to the Queen's most Excellent Majesty 
 For Her Jlajesty's Stationery Otfice. 
 
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