LIBRARY OF THK University of California. '■ DOCUMENll Class DCTT. REPORT FROM HER MAJESTY'S COMMISSIONERS FOR INQUIRING INTO THE ADimiSTRATION AND PRACTICAL OPERATION OF THE POOR LAWS IN SCOTLAND. ^3rcscnttli to 6otj) ?i}ouscs of yarliamcnt feg ©ominanl) of ?Dct iKajestg. EDINBURGH : PRINTED BY MURRAY AND GEBB, GEORGE STREET, FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. 1844. inifiio \A>I I A^ 3 .'^ v>^^t^v 11 COMMISSION. TT'ICTORIA R. — Our Will and pleasure is, that Letters Patent be forthwith ' made and passed under the Seal appointed by the Treaty of Union to be kept and made use of in place of the Great Seal of Scotland, in the Words or to the Effect following, viz. : — VICTORIA, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith, To Our Right Trusty and Well- Beloved Cousin and Councillor, Robert Viscount Melville, Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Our Right Trusty and Well- Beloved Robert Montgomerie Lord Belhaven, and our Trusty and Well-Beloved Henry Home Drummond, Esquire, James Campbell of Craigie, Esquire, Edward Twisleton, Esquire, Patrick Macfarlan, Minister of the West Kirk at Greenock, Doctor in Divinity, and James Robertson, Minister of Ellon in our County of Aberdeen. Whereas, We have thought it Expedient, for divers good Causes and Con- siderations Us thereunto moving, that a diligent and full Liquiry should be forth- with made into the Practical Operation of the Law3 which ,prd> ide for the Relief of the Poor in Scotland ; and whether any and what Alterations, Amendments, or Improvements, may be beneficially made in the said Laws, or in the Manner of administering them, and how the same may be best carried into effect. Now Know ye that We, reposing great Trust and Confidence in Your Zeal and Ability, have authorized and appointed. And do by these Presents, Authorize and Appoint You, the said Robert Viscount Melville, Robert Montgomerie Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, James Campbell, Edward Twisleton, Patrick Macfar- lan, and James Robertson, or any Two or more of You, to be our Commissioners for the Purposes aforesaid : And, for the better Discovery of the Truth in the Premises, We do by these Presents, Give and Grant to You, or any Two or more of You, full Power and Authority to Call before You, or any Two or more of you, such Persons as You shall judge necessary for the purpose of making the aforesaid Inquiry : And we do hereby Give and Grant to you, or any Two or more of You, full Power and Authority, when the same shall appear to be requisite, to Administer an Oath or Oaths to any Person or Persons whatsoever to be Examined before You touching or concerning the Premises : And We do also Give and Grant unto You, or any Two or more of You, full Power and Authority to cause the Ministers of the several Parishes in Scotland to 231784 COMMISSION. bring and produce, upon Oath, before you all and singular, Orders, Books, Papers, or other Writings belonging to their respective Parishes, relative to the Admi- nistration of the said Laws : And our further Will and Pleasure is. That You, or any Five or more of You, upon due examination of the Premises, do, within One Year after the date of this Our Commission, or as much sooner as the same can conveniently be done (using all diligence,) certify to Us your several Proceed- ings by force of these Presents : And that You do at the same time Report to Us your Opinion, whether any and what Alterations, Amendments, or Improve- ments may be beneficially made in the said Laws, or in the manner of administer- ing them, and how the same may be best carried into effect : And We do further, by these Presents, Ordain that this Our Commission shall continue in full force and effect : And that You, our said Commissioners, or any Two or more of You, shall and ma_y, from time to time, proceed in the execution thereof, and of every matter and thing therein contained, although the same be not continued from time to time by adjournment : And we do hereby authorize and emjjower You, or any Five or more of You, to certify to Us your several Proceedings in the Premises from time to time, as the same shall be respectively completed and perfected : And We hereby command all and singular our Justices of the Peace, Sherifis and Stewards, Magistrates of Burghs, Constables, Officers, Ministers of Justice, and all other our loving Subjects whatsoever, that they be assistant to You and each of You in the execution of these Presents : And We also hereby Nominate and Appoint our Trusty and Well-beloved William Smythe, Esquire, Advocate, to be Secretary to You Our said Commissioners ; and authorize You, or the senior Member present at any of your Meetings, to administer to him the Oath, de fideli administratione, in common form. And We do hereby direct and command that the said Letters Patent do pass the Seal aforesaid, per saltum, without passing any other Seal or Register ; for doing whereof these Presents shall be to the Director of Our Chancellary for writing the same ; and to the Lord Keeper of the said Seal fpll.eausiug'tli^*:sp,ijie to be appended thereto, a sufficient Warrant. Given at*6uf"'C(5iirt*a*f**Sa"{nt James's, the Twenty-sixth Day of January, 1843, in the Sixth Year of Our Reign. Bv Her Majesty's Command, J. R. G. GRAHAM. CONTENTS. Statement of Proceedings, -----_-_ j ADMINISTRATION OF THE LAW :— I. Objects of Relief : - ______ li II. Distributors of Relief : in Burgal Parishes, ----___ [y Parishes partly Burgal and partly Landward, - _ iv Rural or Landward Parishes, - - - _ _ iv III. Funds for Relief : Church Collections, &c., ---___ y Voluntary Contributions, ---_._ y Assessments, ---_._._ yji IV. Relief: Indoor : Poorhouses, ----____ yjij Outdoor : Permanent, Allowances in Money, ---_._ xi Kind, ---___ xi Payment of Rents, - - _ _ xi Quartering, - xii Licensed Begging, ______ xii Occasional : Medical Relief, -.__.__ xiii Funeral Expenses, - - . _ _ _ _ xiv Passes and Removals, ---.__ xiv INADEQUACY OF RELIEF : - - - _ Appeal from Parochial Boards to the Court of Session as to the Amount of Allowances unsatisfactory, - - - - xviii REMEDIAL MEASURES : Compulsory Assessment considered but not recommended, - xviii AGENCY FOR RENDERING THE PRESENT LAW EFFICIENT : 1 . Board of Supervision and Inquiry, - - - _ xix 2. Appointment of Paid Officer in every Parish, - - xx ADMINISTRATIVE BODY: Constitution of : in Rural Parishes, __-_--- xx where an Assessment imposed " Heritors" limited, and Rate Payers admitted, ------- xxi in Town Parishes, ------- xxii Union of Parishes within Parliamentary Boundary of Burghs, xxii Board of Management to be elected by Rate-payers, - - xxiii Powers and Duties : 1. Erection of Poorhouses in populous Parishes. Contiguous Parishes may be united for the purpose of erecting Poor- * houses, _-_----- xxiii CONTENTS. 2. To make better provision for Medical relief: Dispensaries to be attached to Poorhouses : Prevalence of Epidemics in large Towns in Scotland, - - _ - - - - xxyi 3. Limatic Paupers to be sent to a Lunatic Asylum, ■• - - xxix 4. Parish in which a Pauper found destitute bound to afford imme- diate relief, such relief to be continued till Parish of settle- ment fixed, - xxxi Officer in whose name actions to be brought and defended, xxxiv Removal of Paupers having no Settlement in Scotland, xxxiv 5. To make provision for Educating Pauper Children, _ - - xxxv 6. Desertion of Wife and Family, and neglect by putative Father to support Illegitimate Child, to be punishable criminally, xxxvi Further Amendments Proposed : 1. As to Church Collections, xxxxvii 2. Other Funds for the use of the Poor, . - - xxxviii 3. Mortifications, xxxviii SETTLEMENT : By Residence — Complaints arising fi-om. Considered, — recommendation that it be Extended to Seven Years, — to be acquired only by natives of Scotland, ----- xxxix Further recommendations as to Law of Settlement, - xliv ABLE-BODIED : Provision for. Considered, ------ xliv ASSESSMENT, Ixii Mendicity, Ixii Public Houses, Ixiii Unlicensed Pawnbroking, ------ Ixiii Savings' Banks, Ixiv Friendly Societies, - ' - Ixiv Emigration, Ixiv Education, Ixiv REASONS OF DISSENT, Ixvi SUPPLEMENT, Ixix REPORT. TO THE QUEES'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESIT. WE, the Commissioners, appointed by Your Majesty to make a diligent and full Inquiry into the Practical Operationof the Laws which provide for the Relief of the Poor in Scotland, and whether any, and what alterations, amendments, or improvements may be beneficially made in the said Laws, or in the manner of admin- istering them, and how the same may be best carried into effect, humbly certify to Your Majesty, in manner following, our proceedings in the execution of Your INIajesty's Commission, and the oi)inions which our investigations have led us to form. Our first proceeding was to prepare a set of questions, which were printed and transmitted to the Ministers of every parish throughout Scotland, in order to obtain information upon many material points, and thus considerably to lessen our subse- quent labours. We deemed it proper to apply, in the first instance, to the Clergy of the EstabUshed Church, being the persons most conversant practically with the administration of relief to the poor ; and we consider that we should not be doing justice to that most useful body of men, were we to neglect to state, that with scarcely any exceptions, there has been manifested on their part, a most praise- worthy zeal to furnish us with information. Indeed, we may say, that we have found, amongst all classes of the community, a similar spirit to prevail, and an equal readiness to impart tons such information as appeared useful. In a few instances, the queries circulated by us, have been replied to by elders or session-clerks, or other official persons, where the minister happened, from any circumstance, to be unable to perform the duty himself. From some parishes we have not yet procured any satisfactory returns ; and the answers which we have received, will, we fear, in no small number of cases, show that the questions have been imperfectly understood ; but, upon the whole, the returns will be found to contain a mass of valuable statis- tical information relative to the Parochial Economy of Scotland. Copies of the Answers which we have obtained, are annexed in the Appendix to our Report, and they will be found so arranged, that the Answer to any Question may be read as a separate subject, without the attention being distracted by the intervention of other matter, the answer from each parish recurring in the same portion of the page. Such remarks and disquisitions, as appeared to be irrelevant, have been omitted. There will also be found in the Appendix an Analysis of the different classes of the poor in each parish, under distinct heads, arranged in a tabular form, and taken from the Answers already mentioned. Although great pains have been taken with the Analysis, in order to render it correct, we fear that, from want of uniformity in the mode of classifying the Paupers in different Parishes, and from the manifest incorrectness of some of the details, the object, which we had in view, has been less perfectly attained than would have been desirable. On the second of March 1843, we commenced taking evidence relative to the state of the Poor, and the mode of administering relief in the city parish of Edin- burgh, and the adjoining parishes of St Cuthberts and the Canongate. We thence proceeded to Glasgow, Greenock, Paisley, Ayr, and Kilmarnock. We then returned to Edinburgh, and resumed our examinations there, which continued till the end of May ; when it was thought expedient to take advantage of the summer and autumn, for prosecuting our Incjuiry in the more remote districts of the Northern and Western Highlands and Islands. We considered it most advisable that all our a ii REPORT OF THE inquiries should be conducted by ourselves, so that our opinions might be formed on what we actually saw and heard. An arrangement, therefore, was made, to have two parties at least, engaged in different districts, each party consisting of two Commissioners, and that witnesses should be examined in every Presbytery, either at the Presbytery seat, or at such other places as might be found most convenient. In this way, the Synods of Ross, Sutherland and Caithness, Argyll, Glenelg, Shet- land, and Orkney, with a considerable portion of the Synod of Moray, were gone through, before the meeting of the whole Board at Inverness, on the fifth of Sep- tember. When the business was concluded at Inverness, we proceeded with our investigations in the Synods of Aberdeen, Angiis and Mearns, Fife, Perth and Stirling, Glasgow and Ayr, Galloway and Dumfries, all of which were accomplished before the middle of December. During the mouths of January and February 1844, our in- quiries in the Synod of Merse and Teviotdale, and the remaining Presbyteries of the Synod of Lothian and Tweeddale, were completed. Occasionally the evidence will be found to have been taken before one Commissioner, the other duties to which some of our members had to attend, having at times rendered their absence unavoidable. Our mode of proceeding was to examine either the Minister or the Session-clerk of every Parish, and any other persons who were suggested to us, as likely to furnish information on the subject of our Inquiry. Some of those whom we summoned were unable to attend ; but we have every reason to believe, that the evidence taken in each Presbytery affords a fair general view of the state of Pauperism, and of the mode of managing the Poor in the district, even although the details of particular parishes may be found wanting. The course, which we have followed, may perhaps appear to have extended the Evidence to an unreason- able bulk, but it has this advantage, that we cannot be accused of partiality or unfair- ness in having selected any particular parishes or individuals for examination ; and upon a subject of such importance as the Scottish Poor Laws, the principles and administration of which have been so much canvassed, it was desirable to satisfy the public mind that we had taken the utmost pains to inform ourselves on the subject from every source from which information could be derived. Results, too, deduced from so great a body of evidence may be more implicitly relied on than if the number of witnesses had been smaller, however unexceptionable their character. The witnesses whom we have examined may be considered as repre- senting every class of society. There will be found amongst them Members of Parliament, Clergymen, Country Gentlemen, Lawyers, Medical Practitioners, Farmers, Manufacturers, Tradesmen, Artisans, and Labourers, differing in education, feelings, habits, and interests, and exhibiting, as will be seen, a great variety of opinions upon many parts of the subject. Generally speaking, however, with regard to facts, we think we may safely aver, that the persons examined will be found substantially to agree. In addition to the Evidence taken before us, we have received Communications from various individuals, which will be found in the Appendix. We also personally visited the Houses of many of the Paupers in one or more parishes in each district of the country, to ascertain the condition of the inmates, and inquire into their means of subsistence. The Notes of the Cases so visited w^ill be found, subjoined to the Evidence in each Presbytery, to which we conceive they form a valuable addition, as affording a far clearer view of the working of the present system of managing the poor in Scotland, than could be obtained by any general statements, and serving, at the same time, as useful illusti-ations of the evidence. It is proper to observe, however, that the condition of the poor should always be judged of with reference to that of the working classes. If this is not attended to, the Notes, particularly those of them relating to cases in the Highlands and Islands, will convey an exaggerated impression of the discomfort of the poor. The first part of the Evidence which relates to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Greenock, Paisley, Ayr, and Kilmarnock, is arranged in the order in which it was taken, The remainder has been arranged according to the Ecclesiastical divisions of Synods and Presbyteries, which we thought the most convenient mode, and which had been already adopted in the Report, made by the Committee of the General Assembly on the Management of the Poor in Scotland, and laid before both Houses of Parliament in 1839. We do not think it -necessary to enter into any detailed account of the Provisions made for the Relief of the Poor in Scotland under the various Acts of Parliament and Royal Proclamations made and passed at various times for that purpose, and ■which now form the basis of the law in that part of the kingdom. A concise ac- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. ui count of them will be found in an Extract from the Report of the General Assem- bly in 1839, which we have inserted in the Sujjplement to our Report. In laying the result of our Inquiry before Your Majesty, we propose, first, to administkatiok enter upon the practical details of the present system. These we shall advert to of the law. in the following order : — I. The Persons entitled to Relief. II. The Body who Administer it. III. The Funds from whence it is given. IV. The Nature and Extent of the Relief granted. § I. With regard to the description of persons receiving relief, there is a general uniformity of practice throughout Scotland. The persons entitled to parochial relief are those who are either wholly or partially disabled, on account of age or infirmity, so as to be incapable of working and earning for themselves a sufficient maintenance, — " cruiked folk ; sick folk ; impotent folk, and weak folk," in the terms of the act 1503, c. 70 ; — or, " aged, pure, impotent, and decayed persons," according to the act 1579, c. 74, — all persons, in fact, who do not come under the denomination of able-bodied. We find, accordingly, that those who are broken down or disabled by old age ; those who are afiiicted with any disease of a permanent nature, which incapacitates them from work, — such as Blindness, Lameness, Para- lysis, or the like ; those also who are insane or fatuous ; and children, on account of their tender years, Avhether they be Orphans, Foundlings, or deserted by their parents, or deprived of support from their father by his death, transportation, or imprisonment, are all considered proper objects of relief. We find that, in prac- tice, there is a great repugnance on the part of the parochial authorities to afford any assistance for illegitimate children, the burden of maintaining such children being, in the opinion of many, properly thrown upon the parents, and the diffi- culties with which the unfortunate mother may have to struggle, being supposed to operate as a warning to others, and thus discourage immorality. We may refer generally to the answers given on this subject to one of the Queries in the list of questions circulated by us^ — and we think we are safe in stating the practice to be, that unless constrained by the urgent necessity of the case, and the extreme poverty of the applicant, the parochial authorities do, as a general rule, resist all claims made on behalf of illegitimate children, from a desire to avoid the encouragement of vice by too ready advances made at the public expense.^ At the same time relief on account of illegitimate children, although strongly resisted, does not appear any where to be denied in cases of necessity. Besides the classes of persons already enumerated, and who are sometimes termed regular or permanent poor, from being placed on the regular parish roll, there is another class, falling under the denomination of occasional poor. Mho, being at other times able-bodied, receive occasional or temporary supply, when unable to work, from sickness or other causes, during such time as their inability to work continues. The practice, with regard to this class, may be collected from the answers given to Queries 50 and 51 of our circulated list of questions. The result of our Inquiries on this subject is, that except in cases of fever, or other epidemics, relief is seldom afforded to such persons, and when given, it is rather e.v pietate, than ex lege, more as a matter of compassion than a matter of right. It has been laid down that such persons cannot have recourse to any compulsory means to enforce their claims, and that they depend entirely on the voluntary charity of the public, bestowed in the form of church collections, or other voluntary con- tributions.^ In Edinburgh, Glasgow, and some of the larger towns, this principle seems not to have been so rigidly observed, and able-bodied persons, labouring under temporary sickness, are not unfrequently relieved, nor has the power of the managers to dispense such relief from the general fund ever been questioned. The instances in which parochial relief appears to have been afforded to able-bodied per- sons, on account of their inability to find employment, are of very rare occuiTence. The recent depression in trade caused the question as to the right of able-bodied PERSONS RELIEVED. ' See Answers to Query 52 p. 334, Quest. 5823-5825. " App. Part I., p. 15, Quest. 029-333 ; pp. 41, 42, Quest. 911-91G ; Jlony penny on Poor Laws. Second Edition, p. 31. IV EEPORT OF THE rEKSONS RELIEVED. DISTKIBUTORS OF RELIEF. persons to demand relief, to be frequently agitated ; but we find that the universal practice, with a few exceptions in one or two country parishes, has been to refuse relief in such cases ; and the pressing wants of the able-bodied have been met by other means, such as subscriptions for their relief, or work furnished by proprietors in their neighbourhood, at a reduced rate of wages. § II. The Body by whom Relief is administered to the Poor. The parishes in Scotland are distinguished into, First, Burgal, Second, Rural or landward. Third, Those which are of a mixed nature, being partly burgal and partly landward. In Parishes purely Burgal, the duty of providing funds, as well as of administering relief, is imposed upon the Magistrates of the Burgh. The Parish of the City of Edinburgh, the Parish of Glasgow, the Parish of St Nicholas, Aberdeen, and the Parish of Paisley, may be adduced as instances of Parishes purely Burgal. In these the ordinary management of the Poor is devolved on a committee of managers, chosen, not upon any fixed or definite principle, but according to some customary usage, in each particular burgh. In all of them, however, the power of imposing, apportioning, and levying the funds rests with the magistrates of the burgh. The committees have no authority, either by law or by custom, to impose a rate, or to fix its amount. The number of parishes in which the purely burgal system of administration continues to be adhered to, has been greatly diminished, in consequence of the recent decision in the House of Lords, in the case of Dunbar.-' Previous to that decision, the practice was in parishes, part of which was burgal and part land-ward, to consider the burgh and the landward portions as two distinct parishes ; the poor in each being under a separate manage- ment, with separate funds for their maintenance. The poor of the burgh were maintained and supported by the magistrates on the system applicable to parishes purely burgal, while the poor in the landward jsart were under the charge of the heritors and kirk-session. It was held in the Dunbar case that the two portions of the parish ought to be accounted as one, for all purposes connected with the management of the poor, or the funds raised for their relief. We found the old practice still adhered to in the parish and burgh of Jedburgh, but legal measures are now in progress with a view to effect a change. In rural parishes the body invested by law with the power to administer relief and impose an assessment is com])osed of the kirk-session and the heritors or landowners in the j)arish. The kirk-session is an ecclesiastical court which does, or at least ought to, exist in every parish in Scotland. It is composed of the minister. Mho is ex officio chairman or moderator, and ciders, who are selected for that oflice on account of the respectability of their character. No rule has been laid down determining the number of elders in a parish. It is gene- rally supposed to depend on the size of the parish, and to be adapted to the wants of the population. When there are no elders in a parish, the minister is held to represent the kirk-session. The body thus constituted of heritors and kirk- session have complete control in all matters relating to the poor. The opinion of the majority regulates their proceedings, and at their half yearly meetings held in terms of the statutes, they may assess .the parish to any amount for the su]iport of the poor. The votes of the minister and of each elder respectively are of equal weight with that of any heritor in the parish. In parishes partly burgal and partly landward, the administrative body is composed also of the heritors and kirk-session, — the magistrates of the burghs forming part of that body in their character of heritors. Although legally the administrative body is the same in all parishes, whether purely landward or partly landward and partly burgal, yet, in practice, the management is dififercnt in different parts of the country. Ge- nerally, throughout the Highland and Northern Parishes, and in very many of those in the Central and Western Districts, the heritors take little or no share in the ordinary management of the poor. At most, some of them, either by themselves or their factors, may attend the stated yearly or half-yearly meetings of the heritors and kirk-session, when the accounts are examined and the lists of the poor inspected. If the heritors and kirk-session refuse or delay to meet, to consider and decide the claim of an applicant for relief, the judge ordinary, upon complaint made to him, will compel them to meet and dispose of the claim, but he has no further jurisdiction in the matter. If they should reject the claim, or give an ' Magistrates of Dunbar, v. Duchess of Roxburghe, &c. ; April 10, 1835. 1 Shaw and M'Lean, 134. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. inadequate allowance, he has no power to review their decision. Applications for relief are usually made, in the first instance, either to the minister or to one of the elders, and the kirk-session virtually decide upon their merits. Where, as is sometimes the case, there are few or no elders, or they happen to be remiss in the performance of their duty, the management is devolved almost exclusively upon the minister. In parishes in which recourse has been had to an assessment, the heritors, as might be expected, have been led to take a some- what greater interest in the administration of the funds. In the Synod of INIerse and Teviotdale, in which assessments have been long prevalent, the kirk-session act a comparatively minor part, and the management falls chiefly upon the heritors or their representatives. The acting officer there is the heritors' clerk, and not the session-clerk, as in other parts of Scotland. § ITT. The Funds raised for the Relief of the Poor. The fund which has been considered generally the primary source from which the poor ought to be supported, is the Church Collections. There is scarcely any parish in which the practice of contributing to the church collections is not main- tained, however small the fund which is thereby realized. The amount of the church collections is influenced by many different local circumstances, the number who attend church, the amount of dissent, the comparative wealth of congregations, the existence of other modes of providing for the poor, and sundry other causes. Throughout the Northern and Western Highlands, and nearly the whole of the parishes comprised in the Synods of Shetland, Orkney, Sutherland and Caith- ness, Ross, Glenelg, Argyll, and Moray, — embracing in territorial extent almost one-half of Scotland, the church collections, with such small sums as may accrue to the kirk-session from fees, fines, &c., aided, in a few instances, by occasional donations from heritors or casual visitors, form the only public fund, to which the poor can look for relief. In other parts of the country, in addition to the money supplied by the church collections and other sessional funds, there exists in many parishes a greater or less annual income, arising from Mortifications, — that is, sums of money or land given in mortmain or perpetuity by benevolent individuals. In some parishes we have found that a small capital had been accumulated from donations or legacies, or savings made in former days, when the existing demands upon the funds did not exhaust the annual income. The interest of the capital sums thus accumulated being added to the amount of the church collections, forms, in such cases, a portion of the funds for the support of the poor. Where the money arising from the collections, and other sources of income prove insufficient to meet the wants of the poor, encroachments are often made upon the capital sums, or the heritors and kirk-session have recourse to other modes of supplying the deficiencies. Upon any such emergency arising, the most obvious course would appear to be, to take immediate steps for raising the required sum by an assessment, regularly imposed and leviable from the parties liable by law to contribute in the manner prescribed by the statutes. A strong feeling in opposition to a legal assessment has, however, existed in Scotland, and the clergy in general have strenuously exerted their influence, to prevent recourse being had to any compulsory mode of raising funds for the relief of the poor. It is maintained, that the existence of an assessment in a parish has a tendency to encourage pauperism, and to increase the numbers of the poor, and the expense of supporting them, without materially bet- tering their condition.^ The establishment of a fund so raised, is said to lead the poorer classes to place an undue reliance upon a legal provision, and thus to break down their spirit of independence. The exertions they might otherwise 'make on their own behalf are thus supposed to be relaxed, while, at the same time, the efforts of private charity, the care and kindness of relations, and the sympathy of the poor for the poor, are held to be so much diminished, as to render any advantages which the pauper may obtain from the introduction of an assessment, but a small compensation for what he loses in other respects. These sentiments have been expressed by very many of the ministers, whom we have examined in every part of Scotland, as will be seen on reference to the evidence ; and they have no doubt gathered additional strength from the powerful advocacy of Dr Chalmers, whose name is associated with that system DISTRIBUTORS OF RELIKF. FUNDS FOR RELIEF. ' In the Statistical Account of Scotland, now in course of publication, at p. 481, &c., this appears to have been the effect of Assessments on the condition of the poor in the three parishes of Greenock. vi REPORT OF THE FixDs FOR which proposes to provide for the poor, without any other means than those RKLiEf. afforded by the exercise of christian charity. The evidence of Dr Chahners con- tains his own account of the plan by which the poor were supported in the parish of St John's in Glasgow, during his incumbency there, without any aid from an assessment, as a practical illustration of his system.^ In most of the unassessed parishes, all parties seem to dread an assessment, and look upon it as an evil which ought, if possible, to be avoided; and in many instances, when church collections, and other ordinary funds, prove inadequate, the heritors make an arrangement among themselves to subscribe voluntarily, in order to supply the defi- ciency. Hence have originated the various forms of what is not unfrequently called a voluntary assessment. Sometimes the contributions of individuals bear little or no proportion to the relative value of the property held by each heritor ; but more frequently the money is raised by all agreeing to pay rateably according to the amount of the rentals of their respective estates. Even in towns, such as Cupar in Fife and Kirkcaldy, where rental could not with propriety be adopted, as the cri- terion of what parties ought to contribute, the voluntary system has been followed by persons subscribing according to their means. A general notion of the condition in which a great proportion of the parishes in the Lowlands of Scotland, particularly in the midland districts, stand, at present, with respect to the means adopted for providing the necessary funds for the support of the poor, may be given by selecting as a specimen, the whole of the parishes in any one of the Presbyteries of these districts ; but we shall here take the Presbytery of Cupar, in the Synod of Fife, as affording a fair sample of the state of the parishes in other presbyteries similarily situated. The Rev. John Duncan, minister of the parish of Abdie, says, — " During the first two years of my incumbency, the poor were supported wholly by the collections at the church doors and mortification money. The year before last the heritors voluntarily assessed themselves to the amount of 60/., last year 100/., and this year 180Z. When we came to make up our accounts in 1841, we found we M-ere 30/. in debt, and this led to a voluntary subscription. All the heritors, without any exception, assessed them- selves according to theu- valued rents." ^ Rev. Robert Johnston, minister of the parish of Auchtermuchty, says, — " There is a legal assessment in my parish for the relief of the poor ; last year was the first year of its introduction. The poor were previously supported by the voluntary assess- ments of the heritors, which had been in operation for nearly a dozen years. The introduc- tion of the legal assessment was owing to some of the heritors refusing to pay voluntarily, on the ground that they were assessed unfairly." ^ Rev. John Thomson, minister of Balmerino, says, — " There is no legal assessment in my parish for the relief of the poor ; we have had, how- ever, a voluntary assessment during the last five years." * Rev. John Macfarlan, late minister of the parish of Collessie, says, — " During the last seven years the heritors have assessed themselves voluntai-ily, according to their valued rent. The number of the poor increased more than in propoi-tion to the church collections. The largest heritor was non-resident, and did not send contributions in aid of the church collections, In the proportion which the other heritors thought reasonable. This led to the other heritors being less liberal ; consequently, we were compelled to have re- course to an assessment." " Rev. Adam Cairns, late minister of the parish of Cupar, says, — " Until within the last eight years, the poor were supported partly by the collections at the church doors, partly by a poor's box carried round the parish on Saturdays, and by a portion of the dues on marriages, and by the interest of a fund of 450/., left by the late Dr Gray. It was found that these funds were Inadequate to maintain the poor properly, and the heritors tlaen agreed to supply the deficiency by assessing themselves according to their valued rent."" Rev. Angus M'Gillivray, late minister of Dairsie, says, — " The poor are maintained solely by the church collections and other voluntary contribu- tions. There are eight heritors in my parish, five of whom are non-resident. Last Decem- ber, and in December 1841, I wrote to the absentee heritors, requesting them to subscribe in aid of the church collections, and their united subscriptions were 18/. 2s. In 1842 one did not subscribe, but the united subscriptions of the others were 18/. 2s."' Mr Peter Jack, session-clerk of Flisk, says, — " There has been a voluntary assessment by the heritors, according to their real rents, for ' App. Part I., p. 266, et seq. ' App. Part III., p. 261. ' Ibid, p. 262. ♦ Ibid, p. 264. ' Ibid, p. 265. Ibid, p. 266. ' Ibid, p. 2C0. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. vu KKLIKF. the last three years. The church collections had been falling off, which made it necessary to have recourse to a voluntary assessment." ' funds for Rev. John Murray, late minister of Dunbog, says, — " The heritors in my parish voluntarily assess themselves, according to their valued rents for the relief of the poor, as a supplement to oui* church collections." ^ Rev. James Brodie, late minister of the parish of Monimail, says, — " There is a voluntary assessment by the heritors on the valued rent ; It has subsisted for the last twelve years. It first became necessary on account of the expense of sendin"' luna- tics to an asylum, which proved too heavy a burden for the ordinary funds ; but, indepen- dent of lunatics, the funds would not now be sufficient for the maintenance of the ordinary poor, without the aid of voluntaiy contributions."' Rev. Henry D. Cook, minister of the parish of Kilmany, says, — " We have no legal assessment for the relief of the poor in the parish, but ever since I came into it, we have had occasionally voluntary assessments."'' Rev. Alexander Kidd, D.D., minister of Moonzie, says, — " There is no assessment, cither legal or voluntary, in the parish. Our funds have been quite sufficient as yet. Our funds are derived from church collections, mortcloth dues, and rent of land belonging to the kirk-session In the parish of Cupar. The land consists of about six acre?, and is let for about 35Z. annually. It M'as purchased, about eighty years ago, with money belonging to the session. The rent of the land forms the principal fund for the maintenance of the poor, the church collections being veiy low — about 21. yearly. The people do not give, because they know that we do not want it, — and the parish is very small."' Rev. I)r Anderson, minister of the parish of Newburgh, says, — " There is no legal or voluntaiy assessment in my parish for the relief of the poor."" Rev. Andrew Melville, late minister of Logie, says, — " There is a voluntary contribution by the heritors in my parish, according to their valued rent."'' Rev. James Anderson, minister of the parish of Cults, says, — " There is a voluntary assessment In my parish for the relief of the poor. There were certain funds from various sources for the relief of the poor, which had been gradually in the process of exhaustion until they were finally spent a few years ago. It was then found abso- lutely necessary that the heritors should assess themselves voluntarily, as they wished to avoid a legal assessment."^ Rev. William Reid, minister of Kettle, says,— " A legal assessment commenced about two years ago ; It was imposed principally because one of the largest heritors refused to contribute voluntarily. There had been a voluntary contribution for many years previously. The collections have not been sufficient for the maintenance of the poor for many years."* From the above statements it will be seen how small a portion of the monies raised for the relief of the poor is derived from the church collections and other special funds, in those parts of Scotland, to which the foregoing remarks and quo- tations apply ; and how frequently recourse is had, either to a voluntary contribu- tion in the nature of an assessment, or to a regular legal assessment. The number of legally assessed parishes has, for some time, been increasing annually, and we have reason to believe, that the general feeling against an assessment is gradually diminishing.* In most of the cities and large toAvns it has long been found absolutely necessary to resort to this mode of raising the required funds ; and there is now hardly any considerable town or populous parish in Scotland in which an assessment is not either in existence, or in contemplation. Even in Inverness, where an assessment was long resisted, it was at length, in 1843, found to be inevitable. On reference to the evidence, it will be seen that many parishes have been represented to us as being in what is called the transition state, and shortly about to adopt a compulsory method of providing for the poor. The assessment is not raised, as in England, upon one uniform plan over the whole country. " In landward parishes the assessment Is divided Into halves — the one half leviable from the heritors, the other half from the tenants and householders ; while in burghs, the rate Is leviable without division, from the Inhabitants generally. Then, so far from there being a uniform mode of assessment in each class of parishes, there Is a very_ great diversity.^ In landward parishes, the whole assessment is. In some Instances, Imposed directly on the heritors, ' App, Part III., p. 270. • Ibid, p. 271. = Ibid, p. 272. "Ibid, p. 276. Ibid, p. 277. " Ibid, p. 279. 'Ibid, p. 280. "Ibid, p. 281. " Mr SuioUett, App. Part III., p. 459. vm EEPORT OF THE yUNOS FOR KELIKF. UELIEF.— INDOOR. Poorhouses. with relief to each heritor, to the extent of one-half of the sum assessed on liiin against his own tenants ; while in others, the one-half is laid on the class of heritors, and the other half directly on the class of tenants, the division among the individuals of each class being regu- lated by rules which also vary in ditierent parishes. In regard to the assessment on the heritors, it is sometimes imposed according to the present actual rent of the whole real pro- perty in the parish. In other instances, it is laid on according to the valued rent. This is a valuation made originally in the time of the Commonwealth, and rectified in the reign of Charles II., but Avhich has remained since then without alteration, designating each particular property as of the valued rent at whicli it was then estimated. Where the rule of assessing by the valued rent prevails, house property is not subjected to any rate, and all disputes as to the share of the assessment to be imposed on the several parties liable, is entirely avoided. Even, however, as between particular estates in the same parish, the rate thus imposed is sometimes far from being equally proportioned, with reference to their respective real values, and it is impossible, from a mere return of the rate of assessment on the pound Scots of valued rent, to determine the proportion between the rate and the actual rental, or to insti- tute any comparison between one parish and another. In some ])arts of the country, the average present rental is, as compared with the valued rent, less than 11. stei-ling to every pound Scots of valued rent. In others it exceeds that amount, rising to 21., 3Z., 41., and 51. sterling ; and in situations now highly improved, but uncultivated at the date of the valua- tion, a much larger sum to each pound Scots of valuation. " Again, as to the class of tenants and householders. In some cases the rate is imposed on the tenants of land only. In others, the tenants of all real propertj', houses included, are assessed. In others, all the inhabitants possessing property, real or moveable, are included in settling the rate. Sometimes the assessment is fixed as a certain rate on the valuation. Some- times as a rate on the actual rental or value of the real property possessed by the rate- payers, and sometimes as a rate on the estimated amount of their means and substance, or general wealth. " In like manner, In burghs the rate is imposed, in some instances, on the rental of the real property occupied by the parties assessed ; in others, on an estimate of their means and sub- stance, or general wealth, with different variations or modifications, according to the par- ticular usage of the burgh." ' The mode of levying the assessment is very different in the different burghs. In some parishes, which are partly burgal and partly landward, such, for instance, as Haddington, Dunbar, and Hawick, there is an understanding between the burgh and the landward lieritors, that a certain projwrtion only of the whole assessment shall be leviable from the burgh. In Hawick the town pays one-sixth. In Plad- diiigton one-fifth, and in Dunbar one-sixth, the remainder being raised from the landward portion of the parish. In parishes where no such arrangement exists, considerable difficulty is experienced in laying on an assessment, which may be in strict conformity with the law relating to landward and burgal parishes respec- tively. § IV. We are now to consider the Nature and Extent of the Relief given to the Poor. In the Statutes and Proclamations,^ directions are contained for building correc- tion houses, but these were exclusively for the reception of " beggars, vagabounds, and idle persones," and the laws even with regard to such persons were never carried into effect. In some of the larger towns, where the number of aged and helpless individuals, whose friends are either unable or unwilling to undertake the charge of them, is always considerable, it has been found desirable to provide a place, into which persons of that description might be removed and put under proper care and treatment. Such establishments are under the control of the ordinary managers of the poor, and the expense attending them has been held a proper charge upon the funds. In the city of Edinburgh there is an establishment of this sort, called the Charity Workhouse. It now consists of three separate l)uildings ; the largest of which is the Poorhouse, built in 1743, appropriated chiefly to the accommodation of the aged and infirm, and capable of containing about 420 inmates ; the Bedlam, or Asylum for Lunatics, is said to be capable of accommodating ujnvards of 100 ; and the Hospital for children may contain about 260. The Poorhouse is generally full, and ap- plications for admission frequently refused on account of the want of room.^ The whole establishment is under a house-governor, and superintended by a committee of the Managers of the Poor, sj)ecially named for that purpose. There is a medical gentleman who attends daily,* by whose report the dietary is regulated.^ Divine ' Report by Committee of the General Assembly, 1839. Tage 19. ' 1(572, cap. 18, Procl. llth Aug. 1692, .3ci March 1698. '" Mr Robert Uowie* App. Part ]., p. 6, Quest. 91-94. * Quest. 86-120. ' Quest. 119. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. uc service is performed every morning and evening, at which such of the inmates as are able attend. Very few of those Mho have been admitted display any anxiety to quit, the house, although the poor sometimes manifest considerable reluctance to become inmates of it.^ Those who are able to work at all are employed either in the regular work connected with the establishment,^ or in making clothes, shoes, &c. All the clothing of the inmates is made in the house, as well as the clothing for the children in the children's hospital, and such clothing as is su])plied to out- door paupers. The introduction of spirits is strictly prohibited f but the inmates are allowed to introduce any comforts, such as tea, sugar, and even tobacco, which they can procure. The children are healthy, and are supplied regularly with such food and medicines as the medical attendant may order. ^ The Canongate Charity Workhouse^ contains only about 107 inmates, half of wiiom are children. The children and the adults are kept separate, and there is also a separation of the sexes. There is a medical gentleman attached to the estab- lishment, and a fixed dietary which cannot be departed from without his special order. The education of the children is superintended by the house-governor. The West Kirk, or St Cuthbert's Charity Workhouse, is capable of contain- ing about 500 inmates, including about 170 children.'' The number now in it is about 450, so that there is no difficulty in granting admission to such as apply. There is no accommodation for lunatic paupers ; they are all sent to the Morning- side Asylum, near Edinburgh, according to an arrangement made between the managers of the poor and the directors of the Asylum in September 1842. There is a medical officer and a house-governor. The dietary is fixed by the managers. The classification of the children and adults is imperfect; for, although the children sleep in separate wards, they are allowed to mix with the adults during the day ; and there is not a complete separation of the sexes. The children are taught reading, writing, geography, and arithmetic. They are generally sent out about the age of twelve, — the boys chiefly as apprentices to weavers, the girls as domestic servants. In Glasgow there is but one institution in the nature of a poorhouse. It is called the " Town's Hospital," and is appro])riated for the poor belonging to the City Parish of Glasgow.' There are about 420 adult inmates, besides about twenty-seven lunatics, who are accommodated in a separate building connected with the establishment. There is no accommodation for children, of whom there are about 320 on the roll. These are, for the most part boarded out in some of the country villages round Glasgow, and are educated at the parochial school of the parish in which they may happen to be boarded. There is a regular fixed dietary for the inmates of the Town's Hospital; and a house-governor, and a surgeon, who visits every day. The male paupers are employed in shoemaking and teazing oakum, — the women in washing, and working for the establishment. The house is divided into thirteen or fourteen sections,* each containing about twenty-five persons. Two of these sections are visited daily by the Chaplain, and divine service is per- formed every morning and evening. The house is generally crowded, and applica- tions for admission are frequently refused. We understand, however, that measures are now in contemplation, if not actually carried into effect, for removing the establishment to the building formerly occupied as the Glasgow Lunatic Asylum, by which means the accommodation will bo greatly increased. Married couples are not received into the house. The introduction of spirituous liquors is strictly prohibited. In Paisley there is also a " Town's Hospital," exclusively for the paupers of the Buro-h Parish. The average number of inmates, who are all adults, is 207. There is a small ward for lunatics, connected with the institution, but quite distmct from the rest of the bviilding. The inmates of the lunatic ward are included in the number of 207. Several of these do not belong to the parish of Paisley, being boarded there by the parishes to which they respectively belong. In general arrangement and management, the establishments at Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Paisley, much resemble each other. At Ayr there is a Poorhouse, which has been established for a considerable time. There are thirty-seven paupers accommodated in it, fourteen of whom are adults, and twenty-seven children.* Although on a much smaller scale than those which have been already mentioned, the poorhouse at Ayr appeared to be quite sufficient for the wants of the parish, and to be under proper regulations. The expense of 'MrRotertBowie, App. Parti., p. 5, Quest. 116. ' Quest. 125. ' Quest. 145-147. ^ Dr Smith, App. Part I., p. 1.3, Quest. 2ai-295. ' Mr P. Curamiiiff, App. Part I., p. 19. Mr W. Gray, App. Part I., p. 26. ' Mr P. Hill, App. Part I., p. 303. » Mr R. B. Smith, App. Part I., p. 31 1 . Mr W. Lennox, App. Part I., p. G92. RELIEF IN-I)OOU. Poorliouses. REPORT OF THE KEMRr IN-DOOR. P«orhouses. the establishment is 5/. lis. 3d. a year for each individual per head, including diet, clothing, and salaries. The two parishes of St Nicholas and Old Machar, in Aberdeen, have each a small house for the reception of helpless paupers. That in Old Machar was established in 1840, and is exclusively for old women. The average number of inmates is nineteen, and it is superintended by a matron, the dietary, &e. being fixed by the managers of the poor of the parish.^ A small poorhouse was about the same time instituted for the parish of St Nicholas, somewhat similar to that in Old Machar, but not confined to females.^ At Lanark there is a small poorhouse containing only three apartments. It is said to be capable of accommodating about thirty inmates It has been only recently instituted.^ In Forfar there is a house belonging to the parish, in which about a dozen paupers are lodged, who could not otherwise be projjerly taken care of. They are under the charge of a female appointed for that purpose. In Dunfermline* a convenient Poorhouse has recently been erected. It has accommodation for about 130 inmates ; but the number hitherto has not exceeded seventy-three, of whom twenty-four were men, twenty-five women, thirteen boys, and ten girls. The building is constructed so as to admit of a complete classifi- cation of the inmates, having eighteen apartmoits. It is under the general direc- tion of the managers of the poor, with a resident governor and matron ; there is also a salary paid to a schoolmaster and a surgeon. A workhouse forms part of the establishment, and all who are able to work have work provided for them, as suitable as possible. The cost of erection was 2300^. At Montrose* there is an establishment which, though not strictly speaking, a poorhouse, from its not being under the direct control of the managers of the poor, nor maintained out of the poor funds, yet partakes greatly of the character of such an institution. It is called " Dorward's House of Refuge," and was built by a benevolent individual, who is still alive, and resident in the towTi. It is placed under the direction of trustees specially named for the benefit of aged and infirm paupers, and orphans and deserted children, belonging to the parish of Montrose, or to the village of Ferryden in the adjoining parish of Craig. Persons, there- fore, coming under any of those denominations, are proper objects of the charity, provided they be on the poor roll of the parish. The inmates are not main- tained by any funds given by Mr Dorward ; the expense of their board is paid by the parish. The usual charge for the board of an adult is 3s. 6d. a week ; for that of a child, 2s. 6d. There is accommodation for upwards of 100 inmates ; but the managers of the poor are unwilling to take advantage of the institution, except in those cases, where a pauper cannot be maintained or boarded elsewhere at a less expense. After Mr Dorward's death, the expense of maintaining paupers in the institution will be greatly diminished, as there will be then a considerable fund set free for its support. At Dumfries^ there is a building called an Hospital or Poorhouse, but it has no connexion with the poor funds, being maintained by funds of its own, and being under a distinct and separate management. Its objects are precisely those per- sons, who would otherwise be entitled to parochial relief There are forty-four inmates, — eleven men, thirteen women, and twenty children. Persons of bad character and dissipated habits are not admitted. In several parishes we have found some approximation to a poorhouse ; as in Cupar Fife,^ where there is an almshouse, belonging to the parish, in which ten inmates are lodged. In Perth,* a house is taken by the managers, in which three old women are lodged, and placed under the charge of a woman, who is paid for taking care of them, and food, clothing, and fuel are found by the managers of the poor. In Castle Douglas, there are two or three houses rented by the parish for the accom- modation of the more helpless of the paupers. In many other parishes, also, there are houses belonging to the parish, for the reception of paupers ; we may instance the parishes of Kettle, Auchtertool, Portmoak, and Dailly, and several of the parishes in the county of Sutherland, in which houses for paupers'" have been built by the Duke of Sutherland. In Campbelton,^" we found that a poorhouse was in contemplation, and that a ' Mr T. C. Cochrane, App. Part II., p. 613, Quest. 920, et seq. ' Provost Blaikie, App. Part II., p. 682, Quest. 360. 'Dr Gibson of Lanark, App. Part HI., p. 403. *Rev. P. Chalniera, App.Part III.,p.,n5(i. 'Mr Alexander Thomson, App. Part III., p. 10, Quest. 360, et seq. ' Mr II. Cannery, App. Part 111. p. 602. ' App. Part III., |). 201 : Nos. 10, 11, &c., &c , &c., Rev. A. Cairns, Cupar, App. Part HI., p. 2fi8. » Am,. Part III., p. 2S7, Quest. 21, 22, 23. » App. Part II., p. 204. " Provost Colville, Caiupbelton, App. Part II., p. 09. POOE LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOE SCOTLAND, XI committee had actually been appointed, and had made a report recommending its establishment, but the matter was allowed to drop, in consequence of the appoint- ment of this Commission. The foregoing are, Ave believe, all the houses or establishments in Scotland pro- vided for the reception of j^aupers. The Scottish system is essentially one of out- door relief. In some parishes there are two distinct classes of out-door paupers, who are under separate management. In Glasgow,^ there are sessional poor and hospital poor, the former of whom are under the superintendence of the kirk-sessions of the different city parishes, who are allowed to grant relief to the extent of 6s. a month, to an in- dividual. If more than 6s. a month is required, the pauper is then transferred to the class of hospital poor, and is taken charge of by the managers of the Town's Hospital. In Paisley all the paupers in communion with the Established Church were till recently maintained by the general kirk-session, out of the sessional funds, without any part of the expense being borne by the funds raised by assessment.^ The remainder of the poor are under the management of the Town's Hospital.^ In Irvine,* by an arrangement entered into at a meeting of the clergy of all deno- minations, each congregation became bound to support the poor of its own com- munion, — those who belonged to no communion (in which class are also included orphans, foundlings, and insane persons), are left to be supported out of the general funds, by the committee of managers ; and in Perth^ there is, in like manner, a separate distribution of the money derived from the church collections, and that arising from the assessment ; the sessional funds being distributable only amongst the paupers belonging to the Established Church. There are various ways in M^hich out-door relief is administered ; the most fre- quent is by making an allowance in money, paid periodically, either by the week, fortnight, month, half quarter, quarter, or half year. In fixing the allowances, the circumstances of individuals are separately considered, their claims on relations, the assistance they receive from private charity, and every other jjossible source of income. In the Northern and Western Highlands, generally, the relief given from the poor funds is so small, that it can scarcely be taken into account, and is not represented as a material assistance, far less as a sufficient provision for the main- tenance of the poor. In the county of Sutherland, we were told that it was con- sidered " as an acknowledgment of poverty," that is, a sort of recognition of the claim of the party receiving it, to obtain charitable aid in whatever other way he can, from the benevolent individuals in the neighbourhood. We accordingly find, that in those districts the annual allowances are sometimes as low as 2s., and seldom exceed 10s., even in cases of special necessity. In those parts of Scotland, in which the relief given is intended to be a real and substantial assistance to the recipients, there is a great diversity as to the amount, as Avill be seen from the evi- dence on this point, and more particularly from the Notes of Cases of Paupers visited by us, where the amount of the allowances will be found stated, along Avith the special circumstances of each case. Ea'cu in the district comprised Avithin a single presbytery, there is no uniform scale of allo\Nances, and those of one parish will be found to vary considerably from those of another. In Roxburgh and Ber- wickshire, Avhich are chiefly rural districts, the relief given is generally larger than in the other parts of Scotland. Helpless and infirm paupers, who, either from mental or bodily incapacity, are unable to take care of themselves, are usually boarded either with relations or friends, if they have any, or Avith strangers who are Avilling to take charge of them. Orphans, foundlings, and deserted children, are provided for in the same way ; and we may here state, that children dependent upon parochial aid are, generally speaking, well taken care of. the parties Avith Avhom they are boarded being, for the most part, persons of respectable character. Ijunatics and fetuous persons are pro- vided for, either by sending them to a lunatic asylum, or by boarding them in private houses ; the latter being the cheaper method, is generally adopted. Upon this subject we shall have some additional statements to make in a subsequent part of our Report. When a pauper is of such a character as to be likely to misapply his allowance, if made in money, relief is frequently given in victuals and in clothing. The house rents of paupers are also sometimes paid as a mode of relief. This RELIKK— IN-DOOR. PoorlMJii»e«. OUT-DOOR. Perniaueut. ' Mr W. Thomson, App. Part I., p. 289, Quest. 4951. "Rev. Dr Burns, App. Part I., p. S81, Quest. 1311, et seq. ■■ Mr C. G. Sidey, App. Part III., p. 2S2, Quest. 502, et seq. 'Mr G. Stirling, p. 31.3, Quest. 54fil. * Rev. Dr Wilson, App. Part III , p. 499. ^2 REPOET OF THE Pennanent. Quartering. itELiEF — practice is very frequent in some parishes in Scotland, and is considered hj many OUT-DOOK. persons a very desirable form of granting aid. ]\Iany, on the other hand, contend that it ought to be discouraged, and it prevails very little in towns. We do not find that any evil has arisen from this practice of paying rents, or that it has been carried to any such extent as to afford an encouragement for speculators to build pauper cottages, as is said at one time to have been the case in England.^ In several of the parishes in Shetland, more particularly throughout the Presby- tery of Burravoe, the poor are relieved by what is called " Quartering." A person who, in the opinion of the parish authorities, is a fit object for parochial relief, is disposed of by assigning to him a particular district of the parish on which he is quartered ; and it is considered obligatory on the inhabitants of that district in rotation to provide him with board and lodging for a certain number of nights, in proportion to their means. The Rev. John Rannie, session-clerk of Walls, says, — " What is called the system of quartering exists in our parish. Our parish is divided for tliis purpose into twelve districts. There are fourteen or fifteen houses to each district. One pauper is allotted to each district, and he or she goes about from house to house, and lodges with one or the other as occasion requires, or as he or she feels inclined. If they go round regularly, they will sleep once a fortnight in each house. Six of those who are quar- tered in this way have houses of their own. Those who have no houses of their own, and are quartered on certain districts, take their meals with the inmates of the house where they are quartered. Those who have houses of their own take home meal and other provisions which they get."^ The Rev. William Stevenson of North Maven, says, — " The system of quartering prevails in the parish. The parish is divided into twelve districts. The kirk-session only allots one pauper to a district, but sometimes there may be three or four more ; but that is merely through the sufferance of the people in the district. The paupers I now refer to are boarded and lodged by the tenants. However, I sliould not say precisely that they are lodged ; they are rather sheltered ; for they have blankets of their own, which have been given them by the kirk-session, and which they carry with them along with their bed, as they move from house to house. Besides these paupers wlio are fed and sheltered by the tenants of their quarter, there are a certain number of poor in each district who have houses of their own, and who are merely supplied with food by the tenants. They give a mark of meal, — that is about five or six pounds for each mark of land possessed by the tenant."' Quartering is virtually a species of tax upon the inhabitants ; for the tenants consider themselves bound to provide for the paupers quartered on them according to a certain fixed principle. Mr Anderson of Delting, says, — " Delting is divided into twelve districts, and one pauper is allotted to each district. There are between 400 and 500 families in the parish, — so the number of tenants in each district is, on an average, more than thirty. Tlie strict regulation is, that the quartered pauper should receive a night's lodging for each mark of land. It is very seldom that a tenant refuses or neglects to grant a night's lodging in proportion to his marks. If he does neglect or refuse, the kirk-session interferes. When the session interferes, the refusing individual is summoned by the kirk-officer to appear before the session, and to state to them the reasons for his not doing so. It very seldom happens that there is a refusal on the part of the person summoned. In a few cases where they have refused, threats have been held out that the parties would be handed over to the procurator-fiscal ; but I have never seen a case go to that extremity. I suppose that, if the procurator-fiscal were appealed to, he would enforce the regulation of the country."'' The practice of quartering paupers is considered a grievance by the better class of householders.* Licensed Begging The only other mode of providing for the parochial poor is by licensed begging within the bounds of the parish. This is sanctioned by the act 1672, c. 18, which directs, that if the contributions at the parish church are not sufficient " to enter- tain" such persons as, through age or infirmity, are not able to work, they are to re- ceive a *' badge or ticket, to ask alms at the dwelling-houses of the inhabitants of their own parocli only, without the bounds whereof they are not to beg." We find, accordingly, that begging is, in many places, a recognised means of subsistence for paupers.* In the parish of Campbelton' forty-nine persons were, in October 1842, struck off the roll by a Committee of Managers of the Poor, and badges were given to such of ' Poor Ijaw Inquiry Report, 1834, p. 14. ' App. Part II., p. 105. ^ Ibid, p. 216. See also Rev. James Ingram, Uist, Ajip. Part II., p. 209 ; Rev. James Robertson, Mid- Yell, p. 211 ; Mr W. Craisie, North- Yell, p. 213 : and Notes of Cases, pp. 221 , 222. ■* App. Part II.,p. 217. ' Ibid, p. 214. " Ibid, p. 218. See also Mr Hoseason's Evidence, Ai>p. Part II., p. 219. ' App. Part II., p. 120. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XIU the number as chose to receive them, as a license to beg. Even without badges be- ing regularly granted, Ave find that in most of tlie burghs and smaller towns the paupers are allowed to beg on one or more days in the week, as in Inverary, Dingwall, Thurso, Perth, Kirkcaldy,' and many others. At St Andrews, in lieu of licensed begging, a box has for many years been carried through the town on Saturdays. The inhabitants having complained^ of the annoyances to which they were daily sub- jected by beggars, this plan was adopted to get rid of their importunities. The observations which we have hitherto made, principally apply to the relief given to ]iaupers requiring a permanent supjiort, who are entitled to be placed on the permanent roll. There are, besides, other allowances, which are granted out of the poor fund, and are more properly classed under the head of temporary or occa- sional relief. These are chiefly — 1*^, Sums paid on account of the poor when sick, in which, of course, is comprised medical relief. 2d, Funeral expenses. 3d, Ex- penses incurred by passes and removals. 1. There is scarcely any provision made for medical relief to the poor out of the poor funds, in Scotland. This seems to be left systematically to private charity. In some places, however, such relief is provided ; the principal of these are Glasgow and Greenock, in both of which there are medical men appointed and paid by the managers of the poor. The parish of the city of Glasgow is divided into seventeen districts, to each of which a district surgeon is appointed, with a yearly salary of twenty guineas. JNIedicines are also supplied out of the poor fund, and the surgeons have full power to order wine and cordials when necessary.* In the Barony Parish of Glasgow, there are likewise district surgeons, whose duty it is to attend the poor,* on receiving a line or order for that purpose from the superintendant or one of the elders. In Greenock there are three district surgeons,^ who ha,ve a salary of '201. each, with an allowance of 5/. for medicines ; they have authority to furnish wine and nutritous diet if necessary. In Port-Glasgow and a few other parishes, a small sum is paid for medical attendance out of the poor funds, but such instances are rare. In none of the parishes of Edinburgh is there any provision for medical relief from the poor funds, except as regards the in-door paupers in the Charity Workhouse. It cannot, however, be said that, in point of fact, the poor suifer materially from the want of medical aid. In all the large, and in many of the smaller towns, there exist dispensaries, supported by voluntary contributions. To these medical officers are attached, either having a salary, or who are willing to give their atten- dance gratis ; and the necessary medicines are furnished from the dispensaries. In addition to the dispensaries, there are also destitute sick societies, and other chari- table institutions, by means of which extra diet or clothing can be procured. In Edin- burgh, Glasgow, and a few of the larger towns, infirmaries have been established, to which the poor have easy access; and to these many of the poor belonging to the rural . parishes are sent in cases which cannot be properly treated in their own houses. In other places, particularly rural districts, the medical gentlemen generally attend on the poor without receiving any remuneration ; and, in the great majority of cases, they also furnish medicines at their own expense, — for it is only in parti- cular cases that the kirk-sessions pay for medicine. Extra diet and wine, if needed, must be obtained from the charity of the wealthier neighbours of the poor. The medical men, as may be seen from the evidence, while they readily give their attendance gratuitously, yet complain very generally of the burden that is cast upon them in being frequently called upon to supply medicines also. They like- wise complain of the difficulty which they often experience in treating cases pro- perly, from want of the means to procure the necessary diet and cordials. In some parishes, medical relief appears to be adequately supplied by the benevolence of proprietors, who either allow a certain stipulated sum for attending the poor on their estates, or pay for each individual case that may happen to occur. Allowances made for nurses come also under this head of occasional relief. Where a pauper is helpless, and totally unable to do anything for himself, a small sum, varying much in the different parishes, is paid to a nurse for attending him. In many collieries, and in some of the large manufiicturing establishments, and other works, the workmen pay a certain portion of their weekly wages to a medical man, who, in consideration of his receiving the sum so raised, is bound to attend the contributors and their families in sickness. In this way, and by means of friendly societies, many of the labouring poor obtain the benefit of medical aid. ' App. Part II., pp. 141, 22, 346, App. Part III., p. 2.32. ^ Rev. Dr Haldane, App. Part III. p. 307 ; Mr \V. Thompson, App. Part I., p. 285. ^ App. Part I., p. 285, Quest. 4934, et seq. : Dr Fleming, p. 339. * Mr Maclaren, App. Part I., p. 344, Quest. 6047. ' Mr D. M'Ewan, App. Part I., p. 491, Quest. 8712, et seq. RELIKF. Licensed Begging. Occasional. Medical Assistance. IIV REPORT OF THE RRLTEF. Occasional. Funeral Kxpenses. Poases. 2. The funeral expenses of paupers are almost invariably defrayed out of the poor funds. There is a general understandinj; that the kirk-session, or the other managers of the poor are entitled to the effects of deceased paupers, and, in some cases, an assignation is regularly made before a party is admitted to the benefit of the jX)or roll. When the relatives or friends of the deceased are willing to bear the expense of the funeral, this right on the part of the kirk-session is, generally speaking, not insisted on, the friends being, in that case, permitted to take possession of such effects as may have belonged to the pauper at the time of his death. 3. The expense of removing paupers to the parish of their settlement, forms also an occasional charge on the poor fund. Although there exists in Scotland no power of removing, against their will, paupers who have become destitute in a parish, without having a settlement in it, yet, in practice, considerable sums are expended yearly in sending home English and Irish paupers, and paupers belonging to other parishes in Scotland, both in Edinburgh and Glasgow, as well as in other large towns and pailshes. One of the most common modes of getting rid of an a])i)licant for relief, is to furnish him with a Pass or a Certificate, on the authority of which he is to go home to his own parish ; and every parish on the road by which he travels, is in the practice of giving him something for his support on the way. Whole families are sometimes transmitted in a similar manner ; and, if there be invalids or children of the party, they are removed in carts, and the expense of the conveyance is borne by the different parishes through which they pass on their road homeward. The custom of granting passes prevails very extensively in some parts of the countr3\ It probably owes its origin to the statute 1579, cap. 74, and appears to have been subsequently recognized in the proclamation 11th August 1G92. IXADEQUACT OF UEUEF. Having thus endeavoured to lay before Your Majesty a General Summaryof the System actually pursued in Scotland in administering Relief to the Poor, we proceed to consider whether any and what alterations, amendments, or improvements, may be beneficially made in the laAvs relating to the relief of the poor, or in the manner of administering them, and how the same may be best carried into effect. The points upon which we feel it necessary to animadvert, do not arise so much from defects in the laws, which provide for the relief of the poor, as from their being in many parishes inoperative, or administered in a very insuflScient manner. Our object, therefore, has been to consider in what way the present law may be made to work most efficiently, without making any very material changes, either in its letter or its spirit. We have, in all our deliberations on this subject, endeavoured to keep in view, that where a certain system of law and practice is in operation, to which a very large proportion of the inhabitants of the country have long been accustomed to look with respect, great caution is necessary in recommending measures, the ten- dency of which might be entirely to subvert the existing order of things. We think it advisable that the efforts of the Legislature should, at all events in the first instance, be directed to amend and repair the existing system, rather than to introduce what is altogether new and foreign to the habits and feelings of the community. In endeavouring to ameliorate the condition of the poor, the utmost precaution should be taken to ascertain that the amendments proposed be a real and substantial boon to the parties for whose benefit they are intended. We should consider ourselves actuated by a false and ill-directed philanthropy were wc to recommend any measures which appear likely to create an abatement of exertion on the part of the labouring classes, or a less independent feeling than that which now exists : or which would lead them to rely on any other means of sup- port than those derived from the exercise of their own energies, — as we are convinced that such measures, however specious at first sight, would not be cal- culated ultimately to contribute to the happiness of the poor or to promote their welfare. The first point to which we shall advert is the adequacy of the relief at present given ; with respect to which we are of opinion. That the funds raised foi' the relief of the poor, and the provision made for them out of the funds raised for their relief, is, in many Parishes throughout Scotland, insufficient. It is undoubtedly true that, without referring to the Border parishes, in which the allowances made are well known to be high, there are many other parishes in various parts of Scotland, in which, on examining the actual state of the paupers POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. xv on the roll, and comparing their condition with that of independent labourers, we inadkquacv of have found it little inferior. The amount of the money allowance made by the jiki-ikk. administrators of the poor funds gives, in most cases, but a very imperfect notion of a pauper's resources and actual means of livelihood. There are very few of those receiving relief in the country parishes who are not able, in some way or other, to earn a little towards their own subsistence : besides which, the standard of living varies so much in different parts of Scotland, that with Is. a week in one parish a pauper may be in fully as good a condition, as compared with the independent labourer, as he would be with 2s. a week in another. There is, nevertheless, undoubtedly abundant evidence to prove that the allow- ances are often inadequate, both in town and country parishes ; and that the amount of relief given is frequently altogether insufficient to provide even the commonest necessaries of life. Throughout the Highland districts, and in some ' / parts of the Lowlands also, where the funds consist solely of Avhat may be raised by the church collections, the amount is often inconsiderable. In many of these places it will be seen that the quantum of relief given is not measured by the necessities of the pauper, but by the sum, which the kirk-session may hajipen to have in hand for distribution. In other parishes the heritors contribute for a few of the more pressing cases, such as Lunatics, Orphans, &;c. ; while the general body of paupers continue to be supplied out of the church collections ; as in Dingwall, Urray, Dyke, Dallas, Stonykirk, and many others.-^ In the Highlands and Western Islands, Avhen the poor have exhausted their small crop of potatoes which, by the kindness of some neighbouring farmer they have been permitted to raise, they are forced to cast themselves on the charity of their neighbours, many of whom are nearly as poor as themselves.^ In other districts of the country they may get assistance from the farmers or others of the more wealthy class ; and in towns they generally have recourse to common begging. In adverting to the inadequacy of the allowances, we must not, however, be understood to confine our statements to those imrishes only, in which no fund, except church collections, is raised for the poor either by voluntary contributions or by a legal assessment ; as there are many of the assessed parishes to which the same remarks are almost equally applicable. We cannot cite a stronger instance than that of the city of Edinburgh, in which the Town-Council have for years declined to increase the rate of assessment, notwithstanding applications made by the managers of the poor, and their representations that the necessities of the poor were increasing, and the funds raised insufficient.^ The evils arising from the inadequacy of the allowances are forcibly depicted by the Rev. Mr Guthrie :-— " Do you think the present allowances not enough ? — I think them miserably deficient. " You of your own knowledge, can say, that respectable persons with larger allowances would not make a bad use of them ? — In many cases tiiey would require double what they receive ; and in many instances, people have no choice but to steal or starve. I may be allowed to add, that 1 know the system has a most immoral effect, a most injurious effect on the habits of the people ; and elders and deacons are averse to go among the poor, because they have to look upon a vast amount of temporal misery which they cannot relieve. I have trembled often when I have gone at the call of duty to visit the receptacles of wretchedness, because I felt that I could not relieve the misery which I must look upon, and in such cases nothing but a sense of duty could compel me to go and visit the poor. " Do you think these small allowances promote a spirit of independence amongst the people ? — I think the very reverse, and I shall tell you why, — because they are obliged to resort to begging, which never can promote the spirit of independence amongst the people. " Do you think they promote kindly feelings among relations towards each other ? — No, I cannot say I think they do. No doubt they lead relations to do something for their friends rather than see them starve."* And also by Dr Alison, — " As to the smallness of their allowance, do you conceive that it has any particidar effect on the religious habits of the poor ? ^I think it has an injurious effect on their religious habits, in this way, that they have not clothing to go to church, and it has a pernicious effect on the education of the children, and has a demoralizing effect on their habits generally. It is impossible for them to maintain cleanliness, or to live in decent parts of the town ; they must go where lodgings are cheap, or where they can lodge for nothing. Many of them are living in houses condemned, at the risk of the house coming down upon them ; and in ' App., Part II., pp. 22, 32, 528, 534. App. Part III., p. 519. ' Cases visited at Kiltearn, App. Part 11., p. 39 ; In Skye, pp. 390, 391 ; At Ullapool, p. 445. " Sir W. Drysdale, App. Part I., p. 213, Quest. 3617. * App. Part I., p. 88, Quest. 1678, ct seq. xvi EEPORT OF THE lNVi)Kot"\CY OF t^^^^ places they necessarily associate with very depraved characters, and this is the case liFi IFF even with children of very respectable people. _[__ ' " Has it appeared to you that the inadequacy of allowance tends to weaken their friendly feelings towards each other? — It makes them reckless and improvident in all respects. I would not say that there is not family affection among tiicm ; but the friendly feelings of tiiis class are never to be depended on. They have very seldom any uniformity of general conduct." ' I . . . * There can, we conceive, be no question that it was the intention of the law that the Poor should have adequate relief. By the statute 1579, cap. 74, inquiry is directed to be made as to such persons as must necessarily be sustained by alms, to see what they may be made content of their own consents, to accept daily, " to live unbegfjand ;" and directions are given to consider what their " neidful sustentation" vAW extend to every week, and to raise a sufficient sum byassessment for that purpose. The judges of the Court of Session have held, in a recent case,^ that it is competent for a Pauper not only to enforce his claim for relief against the Heritors and Kirk-session, by means of a legal process, but also to apply to the Court of Session, even where the Heritors and Kirk-session have granted relief, to rectify their decision, if the aliment aAvarded be insufficient. But notwithstanding this state of the law, a general indisposition has all along manifested itself over a great part of Scotland, to the jJractical application of any system of compulsory provision for the Poor, — owang to which some of the enact- ments of the Legislature, and the Proclamations of the Crow n, have been suffered to fiill into desuetude ; and even those which are still held to be in force, have been, in many districts, altogether a dead letter. It must at the same time be admitted, that great changes have been taking place since the commencement of the present century, in the circumstances and condition of the people in some parts of the kingdom. The impetus which has been given to manpfactures of various kinds, and the extended operations in the coal and iron districts, have contributed to create a comj^letely new order of things, and have led to a great increase of vice and pauperism. The annihilation of the manufacture of kelp in the Western Highlands and Islands, and the alteration in the system of farming in the Highlands, by which a number of crofts and small farms have been thrown into large sheep walks, have tended greatly to increase the mass of Pauperism. Under the old crofting system, the inhabitants were all connected one with another; the poor Avere the relations or friends of the crofters, and found little difficulty in procuring a maintenance within the circle of their own acquaintance. Now, in consequence of the recent changes which have taken place, the crofters have either emigrated or been collected in villages on the coast, and many of those, who were formerly able to relieve the wants of a poor neighbour, have the greatest difficulty in supporting themselves and their fiimilies. Nor does there exist the same sympathy as formerly, between the i)aupers and the occupants of the lands. A similar effect, although to a smaller extent, has been produced by the consolidation of farms in some parts of the Lowlands. The man- ner in which this affects the poor, is well described by the Rev. Mr Grant of Petty,— " In addition to the sources of supply mentioned, how is the maintenance of the poor made up ? — Almost all of them have potatoes, then they generally have a pig. They may be able to sell a few pecks of their potatoes. Those that can do anything at all, occasionally work in the fields. The farmers are generally kind to them, and they mutually assist each other to a great extent. It might be asked, whether their jjresent condition is worse than that of the poor formerly. I would say, to a certain extent, that it is, because when there was a number of small farms, which are now thro^vn into one, the poor used to receive a capful of meal at each farm house, now they do not receive more fi-om the large farmer. Indeed, at present they generally receive a halfpenny rather than meal, and it is little meal that can be got for a lialfpenny. Formerly a poor person would collect more meal in the course of a forenoon in a district of the parish, than lie could now collect in tliree or four days. For- merly, the poor being natives or aboriginal, and being closely connected A\ith each other by blood relationship, received assistance in meal in this manner, even when they did not go from door to door for it."* We are fully impressed with the delicacy and importance of the task assigned to us, when called on to suggest the most fitting means of adapting the Poor Laws of Scotland to the altered economical condition, which has thus arisen. We entertain no doubt, however, that this task will be most successfully accomplished .' App. Part I., p. 73, Quest. 1616, et seci. ' Duncan ». Heritoi-s of Ceres, Feb. 14, 1843. ' -App. Part II., p. 466, Quest. 230. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XTU RELIEF. Appeal as to amount of Allowance. To Local Magis- tracy considered. by our keeping generally in view in any measures of amelioration, •wliich we inadequact ok may recommend, the leading principles already stated. A ready and accessible court of" review is one of the first, and apparently one of the simplest remedies for providing against the inadequacy of allowances that suggests itself to the mind, and it will accordingly be found that a power of appeal from the Parochial Managers to the Judge Ordinary or other local magistrate, has been recommended by a great number of witnesses. The evils, however, attendant on an apjjcal to the local magistracy, as to the proper amount of aliment, are, we tliink, so great, that we have no hesitation in stating our opinion to be decidedly adverse to such an innovation. It is obvious, that the opinions of individual judges or magistrates, may vary so materially on the question of what ought to be the ))roper amount of relief that cases of the same description might be differently decided according to the feelings and prejudices of the parties appealed to. Questions occasionally have been put to some of the witnesses, with a view of ascertaining what sum they considered proper and sufficient to be given as aliment to an impotent person. Their estimates will be found to differ very widely. Dr Handyside, the Secretary to the Association for obtaining a Government Inquiry into the administration of the Scottish Poor Law, gives his opinion, — " That with regard to a father and mother, with four children under ten, at the working period of Hie, .3s. (id. or 3s. a week, might make them comfortable ;" and he subsequently adds, " I may mention, however, wiien asked about the lowest possible sum to support an adult man, tliat perlinps a shilling might do for a single man. 1 know a man, with whom we had considerable difficulty with reference to his settlement ; he says, I can do very well with Is. per week ; lie has a pretty comfortable place with his sister, he says 6d. goes for nourishment, very coarse indeed, but yet sufficient."' Mr A. Macaulay says, — " To prevent stealing, and save from downright starvation 5s. a week would be neces- 8ary."2 The Rev. Mr Brewster, of Paisley, would give 4s. 6d. to an old man past work, and lis. a week to a widow with five children, the eldest not above ten years of age.^ The Rev. Dr Willis of Glasgow, says, — " I suppose, at least, that a poor old man should have something near Is. a day if rental and sustenance are to be reached."* Mr Sheriff Alison says, — " I think a man with a wife and two children, who coidd not get into the manufactories, could not possibly be kept above almost a total state of destitution under 5s. or 6s., at the very least 4s. a week, that Is supposing none of them could find work."^ Dr W. W. Forbes of Inverness, says, — " I cannot see that a poor person, in an entirely destitute and helpless state can support himself, and preserve health, under 3s. 6d. a week, without other aid."* Lastly, Mr Suter of Inverness' calculates from sixty to eighty days' wages, and thinks 41. 1 Os. a year, or about Is. 9d. a week, would be a fair allowance in such a case. These examples are sufficient to show how little reliance can be placed on the opinion of any one person as to the proper quantum of allowance. In England, where, for a considerable period, the local magistracy exercised an appellant jurisdiction from the awards of the overseers, as to the amount of relief, the effects were found to be so prejudicial, that an alteration in the system was im- peratively called for. We may refer to the Report from the Poor Law Inquiry Commissioners in I834for illustrations of the evils which then prevailed in that coun- try. That portion of the Report concludes with the following striking remark, — " A more dangerous Instrument cannot be conceived than a public officer, supported and impelled by benevolent sympathies, armed with power from which there is no appeal, and misapprehending the consequences of its exercise." ** There is now no appeal of any kind whatever from the decisions of the Boards of Guardians in England, relative to the amount of out-door relief; and we have every reason to believe that the present law of England has, in this respect, been found to work beneficially. ,' App. Part I., p. 136, Quest. 2376. = Ibid, p. 167, Quest. 2889. ' Ibid, p. 603, Quest. 10,906-8. * Ibid, p. 383, Quest. 6877. " Ibid, p. 474, Quest. 8483. " App. Part II., p. 467, Quest. 473. ' Ibid, p. 480, Quest. 661. ° Report of Poor Law Inquiry Commissioners, 1834, pp. 118-151. C xviu EEPORT OF THE IKAPEQUACY OF RELIEF. Appeal as to amount of Allow- ance To Court of Session, to be abolished. REMEDIAL MEASURES. Compulsory Assess- ment considered. The fixing the amount of allowances is a matter which requires the knowledge of so many local details, so many petty circumstances upon which a person at a distance, ignorant of the real situation of the pauper, can with difficulty o])tain ac-^ curate information, that it is, of all others, the point on which the parochial board alone are competent to come to a correct decision. Our own views are so opposed to any Court of Appeal as to the amount of allowances, that instead of investing any new tribunal or board with jurisdiction in such matters, we are inclined to suggest that the appeal to the Court of Session, the competency of which has been declared only by a very recent decision of that Court, should be taken away. Many of those who advocate a power of appeal do not hesitate to avow their objections to the Court of Session as the court of review.^ In the opinion of those persons, to deprive the Court of Session of its jurisdiction in such cases would be rather desirable than otherwise ; and it must be obvious that most of the objections to the judge ordinary or local magistrates apply with greater force to the judges of the Court of Session. They must have greater difficulty in informing themselves of the real situation of the party seeking relief, and in ascertaining the circumstances of the particular locality. We would, on this point, adduce the authority of Mr Dunlop, whose attention has been much directed to all points connected with the Poor Laws. " I understood you to approve of some apjjeal from the kirk-session ? — On the point of whether a party is not entitled to be placed on the roll. " Witlx regard to the amount of allowance ? — There is a good deal of difficulty. If the heritors and kii-k-session acted so as to evade their duty, and gave an elusory allowance, it would be proper that they should be controlled. If they fairly and honestly exercise their discretion, I am not sure that any other body is more likely to judge properly. Certainly the Court of Session, judging at a distance, and from evidence not given in their ])resence with regard to the amount to be allowed in the special circumstances of each particular case, would be, perhaps, as bad a system as possible,— very unsatisfactory."^ On these grounds, we have come to be of opinion That it is not desirable that there should he any appeal from the decision of the parochial managers as to the amount of allowoMces? But it may be asked, if the existing power of appeal be taken away, in what manner is it proposed to secure due attention on the part of the parochial mana- gers to the wants of the poor ? In our opinion the desired result will be best obtained, not so much by authoritative interference with the managers as by the influence of reason and good feeling, aided by public opinion, in gradually leading them to a right exercise of the powers with which they are invested. We have stated, and Ave believe it Mill on all hands be admitted, that in many parishes the poor are adequately provided for. They have been brought to their present satisfactory condition, without the aid of comj)ulsory measures applied by courts of of appeal. There has been no external interference with the management in those parishes, except in a few instances, by the Judge Ordinary ordering the managers to meet, and consider and dispose of the claims of paupers. We can see no reason why the same law should not produce the same effects in other places. It has been suggested, that the adoption and establishment of a compulsory assessment in every parish throughout Scotland, so as to create a certain fund, out of which the relief for the poor should be derived, would have a beneficial effect, and would lead to the allowances being" fixed on a more liberal scale. This would be an entire change of one of the leading characteristics of the Scottish system, which, adapting itself to the varying circumstances of particular parishes at different times, admits of an assessment being either imposed or not, as the managers of the poor may judge expedient. Such a change, without some certainty of its being productive of beneficial results, we are not disposed to recommend. We do not feel satisfied that a compulsory assessment would, in all cases, have the effect ascribed to it, bearing in mind that a pauper has the same right to relief, whether his parish be assessed or not, and finding, as we do, not only that there are many unassessed parishes, in which the alloAvances are on as liberal a scale as in others where an assessment has been adopted, but also that in several assessed parishes the allowances are still very far from being adequate. Not only has no ' Mr Wallace, M.P., App. Part III., p. 479. « App. Part I., p. 281, Quest. 4845, 4840. ' This opinion is farther confirmed by the fact, that in tlie Canton of Heme, the only country in which, so far as we know, any power of appeal from the local authorities exists, with regard to the amount of allowances, the state of jjauperism is described as being in the highest degree painful. — Staiemetit of the Pro- vinon/or the Poor, by N. W. Senior, p. 83. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XIX Compulsory Assess- ment Considered. Proceedings of Ad- ministrative Bodies to be subject to Inquiry. case been made out for so great a change ujion the system now in operation, accord- remedial ing to which it is left to the parochial authorities to provide the requisite amount measures. of funds for the poor, either by an assessment or otherwise, as they may deem most expedient ; l;ut the voluntary method of providing these funds, to which a preference is still given by a large portion of the intelligence of the country, has appeared to us in a great variety of instances, to work in a satisfactory manner, and to be productive of beneficial effects. In these circumstances, to introduce a measure necessarily subversive of it, would certainly bo inexpedient. Should it be found to operate less favourably in future, recourse can always be had to an assessment, according to the provisions of the existing law. We decline, therefore, to adopt this suggestion, being persuaded also that the object which it has in view will be sufficiently secured by the measure to which we have already adverted. On the principle of that measure we would suggest, with a view to a more adequate provision for the poor, that means should be taken to subject the proceedings of the parochial managers to a strict review at stated periods, and j)articularly to ascertain the amount of their resources, the rates of their allowances to paupers, and generally the character and effects of their adminis- tration, and that a report on all these matters should be made annually to the Secretary of State, in order that it may be laid before the public. Hitherto the necessary facilities for enabling the public to attain to a just know- ledge of the jiractical operation of the present system of Poor Laws, have not been aflforded. If it be alleged that reports on the condition of the poor have been from time to time published by the General Assembly, — it may be observed, that these reports, are so deficient in details, as to render them, for the purpose now mentioned, in a great measure inoperative. The influence of public opinion on the management of the poor in Scotland has not, therefore, as yet, been practically felt. No means have been taken to draw public attention to the subject. Indeed the very circum- stance of the small degree of publicity, that has been given to the details relating to the management of the Poor, was calculated to induce a general, and, in many cases, well founded belief, that the poor were adequately provided for, and that no amendments, either in the law or mode of management, were required. Now, we are satisfied that the Inquiry with which we have been charged has already been productive of beneficial results. It has had the effect of fixing the attention of many influential parties on the important subject to which it refers ; thus causing the actual state of pauperism to be thoroughly investigated, and the provision made for its relief also carefully inquired into. Indeed the anxiety, which was displayed in almost every parish, that we visited, to make it appear that the poor were comfortably provided for, has firmly impressed vis with the persuasion, that if proper means were instituted for bringing the whole administration of the parochial managers annually under public notice, a moral force arising from public opinion would be thus applied to the correction of abuses, which it would soon be found impossible to resist. We conceive that there could be no difficulty in establishing a Board in Edin- board op burgh, on some such footing as that of the present General Prison Board, by supervision. whose supervision this object should be attained. We would propose that reports should be made to such Board at stated periods, from every parish in Scotland, and that such Board should be required to present annually a Report to the Secre- tary of State. We do not think it expedient that the Board which we contemplate should have any power of interfering with the management of the parochial boards, exce])t by representation or advice. But we are decidedly of opinion that they should have full power to require the Parochial Boards to furnish them Avith e\ery information regarding the management of the poor in their respective parishes. We \Aould propose that every Parochial Board should be bound, when required by the Board of Revision, to make out, at their statutory meetings, held in February and August, classified lists of the paupers enrolled on the permanent roll ; also lists of the occasional poor, including widows receiving relief on account of their children, and also lists of all persons who have claimed and been refused relief, showing the grounds upon which relief had been claimed, and the reasons of its refusal, together with a statement of the amount of the provision made for the whole poor, for the ensuing six months, and showing whether such provision is to be raised by legal assessment or from other sources. Our proposition, therefore, would stand thw^ :— That a Board of Supervision, all the members of which should he unpaid, shall be established for a limited period, to which Board Reports shall be made, at least twice in the year, from the Parochial c'l XX REPORT OF THE BOARD OF BUPEKVISION. Paid Clerk or Officer, to be appointed in «very Parish. Boards, stating specially the numbers and condition of the Poor in each parish, aiid the amount of relief, in suchfm-m as shall he prescribed hj the Board of Supervi- sion ; that complaints may he made to such Board, and that such Board shall have the fullest power of inquiry and remonstrance. That the Board of Supervision shall make a Report annually to the Secretary of State on the condition and management of the Poor throughout Scotland. It M ill be nccessar)^ however, if such a Board of Supervision he instituted, that some provision shall be made for the appointment of a responsible officer in each Parish, who shall be bound to make the requisite reports to the Board ; and qualified to give any information which may be required. The expense occasioned to the Parish by the salary of such an officer, as we pro- pose, may in most cases be very small. In a large proportion of the rural parishes, the services required of him, would occupy but a limited portion of his time. The advantage of having such an officer would, on the other hand, be considerable, as he would be officially bound to have a knowledge of the whole Poor, and to make himself acquainted with the circumstances of each case. In fact, the establish- ment of a paid inspector in the more populous parishes is, we think, a matter of almost absolute necessity, even for parochial purposes, as /me of the great defects in the present administration of the Poor Laws is the want of a sufficient super- vision of the poor ; and the same individual might combine with the office of superintendant, the duty of reporting on the cases to the Board of Supervision. The feeling of responsibility too, which would attach to such an individual, would be in the highest degree beneficial. We would according-ly farther suggest. That the Heritors and Kirk-session, or other managers of the poor in each parish, shall be bound to appoint a salaried clerk, or other officer, irho shall he required to make the Reports to, and conduct the correspondence with, the General Board of Supervision, and that the remuneration which such officer shall receive, shall be fved by the parochial board of management. The next point to which our attention has been directed is, whether any, and what alterations ought to be made in the constitution of the Parochial Boards of CONSTITUTION OF ADMINISTRA- TIVK BODIES. Jluiral Parishes. Management. I.— AS TO RURAL PARISHES. If the influence of public opinion be brought to bear on the management of the Poor, and particularly on the amount of allowances made to them in some such manner, as we have now recommended, it would not appear to be necessary, at least in the case of unassessed parishes, to make any change in the constitution of the administrative boards. In such parishes where, as it usually happens, the popula- tion is scattered, and a primitive simplicity of manners continues to prevail, the members of the present administrative body both from their place in society, and the facilities which they possess for acquiring an accurate knowledge of the con- dition of the poor, must be, generally speaking, the parties best fitted to be made responsible to the public as a board of management. We are also pe suaded, that the composition of the administrative body, as provided for by the existing law, has generally given satisfaction. There may be difficulties in some places in consequence of the recent secession from the Church, and other causes, in finding proper persons to form Kirk-sessions, and continue the working of the present system ; but in every Parish, even under the most unfavourable aspect, there must always be a Minister of the Established Church, who, in conjunction with the Heritors, will have no difficulty in superintending efficiently the manage- ment of the poor. In some of the Parishes in the Counties of Roxburgh and Berwick, the elders have not, for many years, taken an active part in the management, and however desirable it may be that elders should be constituent members of the Parochial Boards, yet their being so does not appear to be a matter of absolute necessity. Whatever opinion may be formed with regard to the results of the late secession, there are certainly not sufficient data, on which we could say that a difl'erent constitution of the administrative body has becom:' necessary. The general feeling is, we believe, in favour of the continuance of the present boards of management. Upon this subject Mr Campbell, the Sheriff-Substitute of Paisley, a gentleman of great exjjerience, says, when asked, — " Would it be desirable to change the body to which the administration of relief is en- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XXI trusted ? — I should think it undesirable, considering there arc from six to seven thousand unpaid managers better qualified than any other individuals to superintend the poor, that have liad the charge in Scotland, and have had from time immemorial, and whose services, I think, iiave not been sufficiently appreciated. " Do you think the administration of kirk-sessions has had a beneficial influence on the people of rural districts ? — I believe the kirk-sessions take the chief management, but legally speaking, it is in the heritors and kirk-session jointly. I have no reason to doubt that their administration has had a beneficial influence upon the people. Perhaps we may have gone too far in penurious allowances, but I do not think tliat we have gone to such excess as has been represented. I speak of rural districts, and merely of those of which I have some knowledge, and information as to others."' We do not enter into the question of the advantages arising from uniting spiri- tual instruction with temporal relief. There will be found in the evidence many opinions bearing upon this point. We shall content ourselves with quoting the remarks of Mr George Wilson, one of the Vice-Presidents of the Destitute Sick Society in Edinburgh, which comprise in a few words, nearly all that can be said on the subject. He is asked,-^- " Do you think it objectionable that pecuniary aid should be afforded in sickness, without adverting to religious subjects?" — He answers, "By no means, but when you are adminis- tering the bounty of the society, it is a very fitting time for a christian man, if he knows the truth himself, to communicate it to others."^ In those rural parishes, therefore, in which no assessment is levied, we should much doubt the propriety of removing the funds for the relief of the poor, from the control of the Heritors and Kirk-session, under whose joint management they at present are. IBut where an assessment is levied, the case is different; and some alterations may be advantageously made in the constitution of the Board of management, by allowing those who contribute a portion of the assessment, but who are not heritors, to have a voice in the administration of the funds. A contribution voluntarily given, differs from an assessment, in this respect, that if the voluntary contributor has not confidence in the Heritors and Kirk-session, he may withhold his contribu- tion ; whereas an assessed party must pay in any case. The imposition of an assessment, therefore, seems to place matters on a different footing, and the rate- payer may be thought thereby to become invested with a right to share in the management, either by himself or his representatives. The admission of rate- payers, as a class, into the managing body, so as to give them a voice along with the Heritors and Kirk-session, would tend to inspire confidence, and prevent any occasion of complaint, Avhich might otherwise arise.^ It is the practice at present, in some of the Parishes in the Counties of Roxburgh and Berwick, to invite tenants to attend the parochial meetings, and their attend- ance is found to be of great utility, as they have frequently the means of furnishing important information, regarding the circumstances of the applicants for relief. They have not, however, the right of voting.* Any alteration of the nature above suggested, would require to be accompanied with some enactment, by which the number of persons now entitled to vote as Heritors at the parochial meetings might be limited. It frequently happens that small portions of land have been permanently alien- ated by the proprietors of estates, or feued, as it is called, for the purposes of building. The owners of such lands or houses are generally known by the name of fciiars. It has been determined that whenever the feuars are chargeable for poor rates, in respect of their feus,* they have a right to attend and vote as Heritors, at the meetings of the Heritoi-s and Kirk-session. The Heritors are thus sometimes increased to a very inconvenient number ; there may be 400 or 500 feuars in a parish, each one of whom has a voice equal to that of the largest heritor. It may be observed that this state of things arises only in parishes where the assessment is levied on the real rental. When the assessment is agreed to be levied on the valued rent, the valuation of the feus being included for the most part in the valued rent of the subject superior, under whom the property is held, and assessed as thus included, the feuars, except in the comparatively rare instances, in which their feus are separately valued, not being chargeable with a poor rate, take no part in the administration of the funds. We have reason to believe that the dread of the perplexities which might be occasioned by the addition of a great number of feuars to the Heritors and Kirk- CONSTITUTION OF ADMINISTIiA.- TIVE BODIKS. Rural P.irishei. Rate-payers to he joined with Heritors and Kirk-seBsioB. Feuars. ' App. Part T., p. 631, Quest. 11,396. ' Ibid, p. 141, Quest. 2460. " Mr Milne, App. Part III., p. 874. * Mr Grainger, Jedburgh, App. Part III., p. 665. ' Robertson v. Murdoch, 23d February 1830. xxu REPORT OF THE CONSTITUTION OF AimiMSTKA- TIVK BODIES. Rural Parishes. Feuars. Town Parishes. Proposed Union of Parishes, session, has not unfrequontly operated in deterring the larger heritors from levying the assessment upon the real rent, and inducing them to adopt the valued rent in preference, even altliough, by following the latter rule, some Aaluable properties have been allowed to escape the burden of assessment. It appears exjiedlent, that in matters concerning the poor there should be some limitation of the number of jiorsons entitled to act as heritors, and we rcconnuoiid that it should be declared, That those persons only are to be considered Heritors, and held entitled to vote as such, who have a valued rent to the amount of bl. Scots, or upicards. Subject to the limitation which we have above suggested, we would farther pro-' pose, That in rural parishes in which an assessment is raised, the body, to be entrusted with the poivcr of imposing such assessment and administering the funds, shall consist, in addition to the Heritors and Kirk-session, of a certain number of persons, to be chosen by the rate-payers, not being heritors as above defined. A body so composed would, in our opinion, be calculated to gain the confidence of the parishioners, and be likely to discharge its duties towards the poor in a sa^^ tisfactory manner. II.— AS TO TOWN PARISHES. The distinction between parishes purely burgal and parishes partly burg-al and partly landward has been already adverted to. In the latter class of parishes some difficulties have recently been experienced, arising from the decision in the Dunbar case^ with regard to the constitution of the administrative body, and the proper mode of levying the funds for the relief of the poor. These difficulties are pointed out by Mr Dunlop in his evidence.^ By the law, as regulated by that decision, it is clear that there must be but one management ; and that the managing body must be composed of the Heritors and Kirk-session, the Burgh Magistrates being held to act and vote as heritors, and to represent the proj)erty of the burgh. It may fiiirly be questioned whether it be desirable that a jiarish partly burgal and ]iartiylandward should be considered in anyres])ect different from a purelybuigal parish. It contains Avithin it all the elements of a town parish ; and it is not easy to find any satisfactory reason m hy the administration of the poor funds should not be conducted upon the same princijile as in parishes ])urely burgal. We find that, in Dundee, Montrose, Arbroatli, Perth, Dumfries, and other parishes of a mixed nature, the administration by Kirk-sessions has been abandoned, and com^ mittees of management have been appointed in their stead by the Heritors and Magistrates. The same result has taken place in the Parish of St Cuthberts, Edinburgh, and in the Abbey Parish of Paisley, which, although both landward parishes, yet comprise within them a large portion of the population of their rcsjiec- tive towns. Without ex])ressing any opinion as to the advantages or disadvantages of these changes, we may assume it to be generally adniittetl, that in parishes where the population has become excessive, the parochial system can be no longer effectively carried out. The suggestion may be attended with some i)ractical difficulties, which we do not at present foresee, but we are strongly disposed to recommend, not only that all parishes which are partly burgal and partly land\Aard, should be dealt with as purely burgal, but also that all jjarishes which, either Avholly or in part, are Avithin the parliamentary boundary of a burgh, should be united together, and considered as one parish, in respect of the management of the Poor. Great advantages might, we think, be gained, by such an union of the different parishes of Avhich a large town consists.^ There Avould thus be a concentration of management, and an uniformity in the treatment of the poor, Avhich could not othcrAvise be obtained excejrt under the control of some general superintending authority, the establishment of Avhich Ave hold to be, on many grounds, objectionable. A person may reside for many years in a town, consisting of tAvo or three difler- ent parishes, Avithout acquiring a settlement in any one of them. The class of iier- sons most likely to come upon the Poor roll are in the habit of frequently shifting their residences from one part of the toAvn to another; and, in the event of any of them falling into pauperism, the uncertainty thence arising as to the j-'arish .of his settlement, often throAvs serious difficulties in the Avay of his receiving relief.'' The great expense and trouble at present incurred in investigating 1 Magistrates of Dunbar i-. Duchess of RoxLurghe, 10th April 18.35. 1 Sh. & M'L. 134. " App. Part I., p. 280, Quest. 4838-48C1. " Mr C. Baird, App. Part I., p. 6G0-CG1, Qucst.ll.SSB-ll.SnO. Mr A. Newall, Ibid p. (567. Quest. 11,995. * Mr A. Pollock, App. Part I., p. 462, Quest. 8314. Mr James Forbes, App. Part II., p. C03, Quest. 831-832. POOK LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XXUl and litigating disputed claims would be saved by such an arrangement as v e have proposed. It seems also to be unreasonable, that paupers who belong to one part of a town should be differently treated from those who live in another part of the same town. We are therefore of opinion, That it is desirable that all Parishes, which either in ivhole or in part, are situate within the Parliamentary Boundaries of any Burgh should he united and held to be one parish, for the purposes of providing for the Poor, and of settlement. We would farther reconmiend That the Managers of the Poor in such united parishes, should consist wholly or chiefly of managers, to be elected by the Rate-payers, and also of the provost or chief magistrate, cj; officio. The number of votes ivhich each rate-payer shall have, being regulated by the amount of the property on which he is assessed. The number of the managers would of course require to be regulated in some degree by the wants of the parish ; of which the population might form a proper criterion. There would, we conceive, be no difficulty in carrying out the details as to the mode of election, which might be conducted in a similar manner to the election of town councillors. Many of the burghs are divided into wards, and where this division prevails, it might be proper that each ward should return a number of managers proportional to the amount of the sum assessed upon it. The number of votes to which any individual might be entitled, could always be ascer- tained by reference to the collectors' books, and to the amount of assessment paid in the previous year. CONSTITUTION OF ABMINISTRA- TIVK BODIKS. Town Parishet. Managers of Poor to be Elected by Rate- payers. Having thus stated our views in regard to the constitution of the boards for managing the poor in rural and town parishes respectively, we have now to con- sider some matters relative to their powers and duties. 1. The first point to which we would direct attention is the propriety of erect- ing Poorhouses in populous parishes. In parishes where no Poorhouse exists, paupers who, either from the infirmities of age, or from bodily disease, or from mental weakness, are incapable of taking care of themselves, are usually boarded in private houses. Relations are often disposed to take charge of them, but whether the ])au]}ers be boarded with relations or strangers, their proper treatment is not always sufficiently secured. In regard to orphans, foundlings, and deserted children in town parishes, there must be always a greater certainty of their being brought up with good moral habits, and of their education being properly attended to, in a well regulated establishment expressly provided for their reception. The persons with whom they may chance to be boarded, however respectable in character, may often be ill qualified to superintend the training of children, or without the means of keeping them under projier restraint. On the other hand, it may be argued in favour of the boarding system, that the children, by being nurtured and brought up in a family, are more likely to have their natural sympathies and affections drawn out and cherished, than when they are placed under the strict discipline of a Poorhouse. But admitting all this, the risk of their contracting evil habits from want of proper care, and the danger of their being subjected to the influence of bad example in populous places, appear to us to outweigh such advantages. No stronger testimony can be brought forward to show the necessity of some provision in the nature of a Poorhouse, than the results of the investigation which we made, as to the condition of the inmates of four houses, in which helpless paupers and children belonging to the Barony Parish of Glasgow were boarded. The following Notes of the Cases were made at the time when the houses were inspected. " Andrew Leitch, Silver Grove, Canning Street, Calton. Two rooms, about fourteen feet square each, and a third room of about the same proportions. Admitted that they sometimes have eighteen children in two rooms ; eight in one, and ten in the other. In the front room or kitclien, was found a woman washing, and a girl winding; three childi-en sitting in a comer by tlic fire, and another woman, a neighbour. In this room was one bed, and a 2iallet by the fire. In the room opening off the first were Leitch and his wife; the latter in bed, he sitting up, both just recovering from fever, which they said had been introduced into the house by two children of the name of Stewart, sent from the barony parish. In this second room were several beds. In the third room were four or five beds. Three children and a woman in one, and one child in another. One of the children of the three in the first bed, was said to be ill of fever, Mrs licitcli said, that a fortnight ago she had eighteen or twenty children in the house. Several had been removed on account of the fever. POORHOUSES. xxiv REPORT OF THE roOKHOUSES. «2. Arthur Gilmour, Slicrra's Back Land, West Street, Calton. Fourteen women and children (nine women and five chil(h-en) in the house. Most of the women fatuous, others very old. House consisted of four rooms. First, a kitchen and room off it. In the inner one were two children ; it was nicely furnished, bed, table with cloth. In kitchen, three women and a child. On the other side, two rooms of a similar size, filled with beds. One old woman in bed in the inner room, the others up and sitting in the outer room. Although evidently much crowded, tlie house ajjpeared comfortable, and the inmates well attended to. " iS. Mrs Mun-ay, 5(5, Kirk Street, Calton. Several inmates, male and female. Four rooms, two down stairs and two in tlie garret. Maniac naked by the fire. Old man ill in bed. No medical man. Directed Dr Campbell to visit and report on the state of the inmates. Two down stairs rooms. Kitchen and room occupied by Mrs Murray and husband. " 4. D.ivid Hunter, by Gallowgatc Toll, Camlachie. Twelve inmates, adults, and two children. Cow keeper. House being whitewashed. Two rooms appropriated to boarders, one for females. Several idiots. One room for males, with two female idiots in it. Very much crowded ; the house ill adapted for the pui-jiosc. Appearance generally tolerably comfortable. Two children, well cared for. One boy, a foundling, for whom the parish has ceased to pay, was continued to be kept at their own expense."' A good deal of additional evidence was taken by us, regarding the condition of those houses, which Mill be found in the Appendix.^ We give the following quotations fVom the evidence of Dr Davidson, Dundee, Dr II. Macfarlane of Perth, and the Rev. Mr Colville of Beith, upon the necessity of establishing Poorhouses in those towns. Dr Davidson of Dundee, says, when asked, — " Would you think it desirable to relieve a certain portion of the poor in a workhouse ? — I am of opinion that it would be advisable, in such a locality as Dundee to have a small poor- house. That is my impression. " For w hat class of the poor ? — For the dissipated poor, for the fatuous poor, especially females, and for the lazy poor ; and, I may add, also for the bed-ridden poor. I do not approve of the present system in Dundee, with regard to the bed-ridden. " NVhat is the general mode of ])roviding for them which has come under your observa- tion ? — They are generally boarded with some other poor person, who receives an allowance for looking after them — nursing them, as it is generally called. It is entered in the allow- ance list, so much for themselves and their nurse. " As to the state of their rooms when they are boarded out, have you any remark to make ? — They are not nearly so well provided for as they would be within the wards of a workhouse, either as to bedding or cleanliness ; and if you speak about diet, we may suspect what it is, but it is impossible to reach the truth as to what they really get." " So that, at any rate, there is not the same guarantee for their receiving diet as in a work house ? — Decidedly not."^ Dr IT. Macfarlane, physician to the Infirmary at Perth, was asked, — " Have you found difficulty in disposing of incurable cases from want of an institution in which incurable poor people might be received ? — We have found great difficulty owing to the want of sucli an institution. When we have taken them in with the view of relieving them, we have found a good deal of delicacy in sending them back to then- own wretched places. " Where they could not be properly provided for ? — Certainly not. We have kept them in the house sometimes, in order that they might just die in comfort there, rather than send them home to their own places. " Do you approve of a poorhouse for the reception of such ? — For the reception of incurable cases it would be a great advantage. There are a great many of those incurable cases among the poor ; and although we cannot hope to get rid of disease entirely, yet you may lengthen their days materially, and render them much more comfortable than they can be Uving in their own wretched houses."^ And the Rev. Mr Colville of Beith, states, — " We have often thought it would be very desirable to have some establishment for orphan and foundling children, as we have a difficulty often in getting respectable people to take them as boarders. I have nothing farther to add, except, that in a town like Beith, I think it would be a good thing to have a house capable of holding from twenty to twenty-five people, in which aged and infirm persons might be lodged when their friends or relations are unwill- ing to receive thcm."° We find, as has been mentioned, that in some parishes the authorities have already seen the advantage of establishing a Poorhouse, either on a greater or less scale, according to circumstances, and the example will probably be rapidly followed in other places, where the necessity for such an institution exists. App. Part III, 394. * App. Part I., Dr Campbell, p. 663 ; Mr M'Laren, p. 567 ; Dr Miller, p. 670. " App. Part III., p. 119, Quest. 1027. * App. Part III., p. 249, Quest. 885, et seq. » Ibid, p. 491-2. See also Mr W. Thorns, Dundee, App. Part 111., p. 131, Quest. 1287 ; Dr Irving, Annan, App. Part III., p. 632, POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XXV There is also another class of paupers for whom it is desirable that some protec- tion should be provided, such as that afforded by a Poorhouse. We mean those who, from vicious or dissipated habits, are likely to misapply their allowances. In regard to this class of paupers, Mr Miller, the superintendant of the poor of the Abbey Parish of Paisley, states his opinion as follows : — " "Would it be desirable to refuse all relief except in a poorhouse, if you had such an in- stitution ? — No, because it would be grievous to put respectable old men and women into a workhouse. " But you think there is a class of persons to whom reUef should be given in no other way? — Yes. " In regard to the advantage of a poorhouse, does your opinion arise from what you observe in the town of Paisley, or on what is it formed ? — It is formed on what has come under my own notice of poor cases, which have been brought on by the misconduct of the parties. If we had a poorhouse to put such people in, it would tend to redeem them, and render them good members of society."' Provost Blackie of Aberdeen says, when asked, — " Will you state more particularly your reasons for wishing the establishment of a poor- house ? — I conceive that the poor of Aberdeen do not get so much as they would require, and in consequence of being left so much to themselves, they squander any money they get. If certain classes of the poor, to whom I formerly alluded, were collected together in a poorhouse, and put to such employment as they were fit for, it would be much more com- fortable, and more facility would be given to the instruction of their children, who are left at present entirely to themselves, and frequently become worthless characters."^ It can hardly be doubted that cases of this description can be properly treated, only within a Poorhouse. It is in populous parishes that such cases are chiefly to be met with, from the tendency of vice and dissipation, to take up their abode principally in the more crowded haunts of men. In rural parishes, where the population is more thinly scattered, if there be any such cases, measures can more easily be adopted, to prevent the abuse or misapplication of the funds given for their relief. We think it, therefore, highly desirable that, in every parish having above a certain amount of population, a Poorhouse should be established under proper regulations, for the reception of aged and helpless persons, incurables, orphans, and deserted children, and the dissipated and improvident poor. We do not fix on any precise amount of })oi)ulation, as the minimum for which a Poorhouse is requisite. But where a parish contains more than 6000 or 8000 inhabitants, the necessity for such an establishment will, we think, generally be apparent. Indeed there are few parishes having a population of upwards of 5000, in which an establishment of this nature is not desirable. At the same time, having regard to the leading views already stated, we do not propose that the erection of Poorhouses should be made compulsory on the paro- chial boards. A compulsory measure for securing the erection of such establish- ments may be afterwards had recourse to, should it be found necessary. We confidently anticipate, however, that the administrative bodies, constructed according to the })]an which has been proposed, and acting under the influence of public opinion, will of themselves take steps for the accomplishment of this ob- ject in all the more populous parishes. In recommending the establishment of Poorhouses, we must not be understood to wish to do away with the present system of out-door relief to helpless individuals, who can otherwise be properly cared for. Our object is to pro\ide for the greater comfort of the paupers themselves, and to secure for them the certain means of proper treatment if they cannot obtain it elsewhere. We would recommend a Poorhouse for those only who are in such circumstances that their condition would be thereby improved. The establishment of a Poorhouse will also be advantageous in another point of view, as it will afford the Parochial Board material assistance in determining the proper limit of out-door relief. If the pauper's right extends to nothing beyond " needful siistentation," it may fairly be said that the rate of out-door relief ought never to exceed what the maintenance of the same individual would cost within a Poorhouse. What we have said as to single parishes, with a population of from 5000 to 8000, may be in some cases applicable to two or more contiguous parishes in populous districts of the country. We therefore recommend That, if requisite, ' App. Part I., p. 593, Quest. 10,788, et seq. See also Mr Wigham, App. Part I., p. 125, Quest. 2184. " App. Part II., p. 684, Quest. 388. d POOKHOUSES. XXVI REPORT OF THE POORHOUSES. MEDICAL RELIEF. powers should be given for ttco or more contiguous parishes to unite for the purpose of building a Poorhouse. We can conceive many cases in which such an arrangement would be found expedient, and it is desirable that every facility should be afforded by the Legis- lature for carrying it into effect. 2. We come in the second place to consider the subject of Medical Relief. The power of affording medical aid out of poor funds raised by assessment, to persons afflicted with temporary sickness, is at present questionable^ ; and even in the case of paupers on the permanent roll, medical assistance is very scantily afforded. The poor, as we have already mentioned, are often dependent on the charity of medical men, both for medicines and attendance. In toAvns, medicines are usually supplied from dispensaries, which are supported by charitable contributions. We tiiink it desirable that the managers of the poor in each parish should have full discretionary power by law to afford medical relief in all cases, where it may seem to them desirable. Expense, we believe, might sometimes be saved to the parish in the end, by medical assistance being jjromptly and efficiently granted ; the temporary sickness may, if not taken in time and properly attended to, be converted into a permanent malady, and a burden be thus thrown upon the parochial funds, which a small outlay, judiciously applied at an early stage of the disorder, Avould have provided against. We shall make but one quotation from the medical evidence, which will be found upon this head in the Appendix, all bearing strongly upon the propriety of granting additional medical relief. Dr Joseph Bell, Barrhead, says, — " I consider that the poor suffer a great deal in consequence of the want of regular medical attendance. Deaths frequently occur without any medical man having seen the deceased person ; and I am seldom called in to see a poor patient until after they have been for several days lying ill, and from that delay the disease has frequently attained a greater height than it would otherwise have done had medical attendance been obtained at an earlier period. In cases of infectious disease the evil is aggravated, in consequence of no proper measm-es being taken to prevent the spread of the contagion. But even when they do apply to a medical man, it is completely at his option to visit them or not ; and if the medicines proper for the complaint are expensive, it is hardly to be expected that he will furnish them out of his own pocket. I find that the recovery of patients is frequently retarded by the want of a proper supply of cordials and nutritious diet. I had either to supply these myself occasionally, or trust to the charity of benevolent individuals."^ We do not attempt to lay down any fixed rule or plan for enlarged medical re- lief. The scheme to be adopted we would leave in the hands of each Parochial Board of Management, since what works well in one parish may be very ill suited to another. The Duke of Richmond recommends (speaking of his part of the country) the encouragement of Medical Clubs : — " In regard to medical relief, I think it would be of advantage If people could be induced to subscribe to medical clubs. In the union I belong to, medical clubs have never been insti- tuted, or at least very few, because the guardians scarcely ever refuse medical relief to a labourer. Indeed, the reftisal is an exception to the general rule. I think, that if in Scot- land medical clubs were established, it would be of great advantage ; and it would be better than that they should receive medical rehef from the parish."^ There are other parishes, however, in which ample provision is made for medical aid to the ])oor. At Coldstream, by means of a dispensary and a sick society, the medical relief appears to be perfectly adequate to all the wants of the parish, although it is dependent entirely on voluntary subscriptions. Our proposal, there- fore, on this head is necessarily general, viz., That medical relief should be supplied more extensively to the poor, and that this should form a proper charge upon the pom' funds. We would farther recommend, That in those parishes in which it is found expe- dient to build Poorhouses, the Managers of the Poor should, in connexion with the Poorhouses, provide accommodatio7i for dispensaries fo^' the poor. Some suggestions have been made to us on the propriety of making it compul- sory on parishes to contribute to the support of Infirmaries. We think it advis- able to leave this matter to the discretion of Parochial Boards, authorising them to make such contributions if they shall consider it expedient. Many parishes can , Mr Little, Annan, App. Part III., p. 683, Quest. 622-3 ; Dunlop's rarochial Law, p. 361, § 27. • App. Part III., p. 419. » App. Part II., p. 659. POOK LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XXVll derive little or no advantage from Infirmaries, and it would be unfair to compel such parishes to contribute for tlieir support. When we speak of medical relief, we must be understood to comprise under that head the supply of nutritious diet, wine, or cordials, when recommended as neces- sary for the proper treatment of the case ; and also the vaccination of children, where necessary. While upon the subject of medical relief, we may be expected to take some notice of the evidence which has been laid before us, respecting the origin and spread of fever and other epidemics in some of the towns in Scotland, and upon the connexion generally of fever with destitution. We believe it to be an undoubted fact that in Edinburgh and Glasgow, fever has prevailed of late years to an extent far greater than in any town in England. It is, however, very questionable whether the periodical prevalence of fever in these places can justly be ascribed to any one specific cause. There may be said to be three distinct opinions on the subject. The first is stated in the Sanitary Report,^ and attributes the spread of fever to filth and defective sewerage ; the second would ascribe the evil to an over-crowded population ; the third to destitu- tion. We believe it to be true that wherever fever prevails, one or more of these concomitants will be found to exist. But as to the amount of influence Avhich all or any of such causes may have on the diffusion or origin of disease, we feel that it would be presumptuous in us to offer any opinion, where medical men of the greatest experience are not agreed. We give Dr Alison's opinion in his own words : — " I do not maintain that destitution has power to engender fever, nor that it is the sole cause of the general extension of fever, but only that it is one cause for the extension of fever — so powerful that it may be always suspected in any large district where fever is found repeatedly to occur and spread extensively, and I have never read anything to contra- dict this assertion. Now, we know that in Glasgow the mortality from fever has been as high as 20 per cent, of the whole mortality, in 1837. In Dundee it has been 15 per cent., and nearly 11 per cent, for seven years together. In Glasgow it was nearly 12 per cent, on an average of seven years ending in 1840, whereas in no to\vn in England has it been 8 per cent, of late years ; the highest has been 7'7 per cent., and this difference I ascribe to the greater destitution in Scotch towns. I can show instances even in this winter, when fever has not been very general, of its spreading immediately through destitute families, while other families not so destitute in the immediate neighbourhood of the fever, have been but partially, or not at all affected. But it is only when fever returns epidemically, which happens according to my experience once in ten years. Each epidemic lasting fully two years, that this result of the destitution becomes obvious. I state this as an illustration of the effects of inadequate provision for the destitute." Dr Perry of Glasgow, who says that he has attended 10,000 cases of fever, gives his evidence as follows, — " Have those epidemics been most prevalent during the periods of the greatest destitution ? — I think they have generally, — not always. " Would you state what circumstances, in your opinion, chiefly contributed to their prevalence ? — My opinion is, that the epidemics we have, except influenza, depend upon contagion, and they spread most when people are more crowded together, when the Influx of strangers from the country is gi'eatest. In 1835 and 1836, a period of prosperity in which there was a great demand for labourers and servants, there was a greater influx from the country districts and from Ireland, than for several years before ; and I believe it was the great influx of individuals from the country districts, not previously protected from the epidemic, that gave rise to the great number of cases in 1836-37. " Are there any local circumstances in Glasgow, that encourage epidemics in those quar- ters ? — When epidemic fever is prevailing, there are circumstances which increase its prevalence, but never in any case do these originate contagious diseases. " But are there local circumstances which encourage disease ? — I know nothing that does so but the crowding of people together in small dwellings, and these probably filthy lodging- houses and places of that kind. I am satisfied this never gives origin to fever, though It spreads it when it occurs as an epidemic. " But when it has occurred, I wish to know what local circumstances tend to increase and spread it ? — The only circumstances are crowding together, filth, and want of ventilation. " Do you think the want of proper sewerage contributes ? — I beheve it has no effect whatever. I have paid particular attention to that subject."^ Our next quotation is from the evidence of Dr Arrot, Physician to the Infirmary, Dundee, — "Then do you connect fever indirectly with destitution ?— Indirectly, so far as it leads to migration and over crowding." "Then you mean to say that it has not. In your experience, singled out the most 'J842. »App. Part I., p. 82, Quest. 1697. ' Ibid, p. 429, Quest. 7638, 7643. (i i MEDICAL RKLIEF. Fever and Epidemics. XX vm REPORT OF THE MEDICAL RELIEF. Fever and Epidemics. destitute? — Not exactly. In 1826, we had great depression. Up to 1836 we went on improving, and the workmen had high wages. From 1836 to the present time, trade has been very much the reverse of what it was prior to that period. By the returns of the infirmary, I find that while we were increasing in prosperity, fever was increasing, and that a considerable diminution of fever has taken place since our diminution of prosperity." He afterwards adds, — " In reference to my evidence previously given in regard to the connexion between destitution and typhus fever, I trust I may be permitted to state, that from the year 1833 to 1836, years of great prosperity in Dundee, no fewer than 1666 patients, ill of fever, were admitted into the infirmary ; while from 1839 to 1842, years of great adversity, only 827 patients ill of fever were admitted into the infirmary ; and from June 1835 to June 1836, while the prosperity of Dundee was at its height, 773 patients ill of fever were admitted into the infirmary ; while from June 1840 to June 1841, a year of very great adversity, only 183 patients ill of fever were admitted into the infirmary. I do not mean by these statements to show that destitution and great and sudden commercial depressions, never have any effect in increasing the number of fever cases. Under certain circumstances they may have the effect of spreading this disease ; but I would venture respectfully to suggest that the above facts show that the mere receipt of a considerable sum of money by the working classes, whether paid to them as wages, or from the poor rate, will have very little effect in diminishing the number of cases of typhus fever." ' Dr Hamilton of Falkirk, says, — " Falkirk is, on the whole, a tolerably healthy town, certainly more so than the old town of Edinburgh. But there are certain parts of the town of Falkirk, and of the village of Lauriston, which are chiefly inhabited by paupers, and which are very unhealthy, i ever prevails there, whenever fever prevails in the parish. There are a great number of lodging houses in those parts, and these lodging-houses tend in no common manner to foster fever. We have sometimes in these lodging houses a succession of fever cases in the same bed. One person is seized with the disease, and either dies or removes elsewhere. Another person comes into the same house and bed, — is attacked in the same manner, — and gives way to a successor, who receives the same infection. These lodging-houses are the most fertile sources of fever. I have known them to be the means, through vagrants, of intro- ducing fever from Glasgow and other towns. I have observed that the strongest and most healthy labourers in full employment, have been attacked by fever, when they have come into contact with these centres, as it were, of poison. I certainly hold, that destitution is favourable to the diffusion of fever ; but as far as my own experience goes in Falkirk, I cannot say that any strength of body is a protection, when brought within the range of the poisoned atmosphere. I speak from considerable experience, as from 400 to 500 railway labourers were xmder my general superintendence during three years. The con- tractors collected so much from the men, and paid me. It was the rule of the works, that whoever came to labour there, should pay so much to a doctor. I did not trace any of the fevers to drunkenness ; but I have no doubt that labourers, by intoxication, would be more susceptible of fever from contagion. The proportion of fever cases was far greater amongst the railway labourers than amongst other classes of the community. I attributed this to the railway labourers being crowded together, and living in lodging-houses. Their wages were high ; they were well paid ; and lived very well indeed. I have made precisely similar observations respecting the colliers. I have been attending lately a family of colliers — a husband, a wife, and six children — who all live in one confined hovel. They are in the receipt of good wages ; but six of the family have been seized with fever. They ai-e filthy people. I did not trace their fever to any defects in drainage. Their fever was the pre- vailing epidemic, rendered doubly poisonous by their living crowded together. A surgeon i)ractising amongst the colliers on the borders of the parish of Falkirk, caught the fever not ong ago, and died of it. Notwithstanding the discrepancy of opinion in the medical evidence, we believe that it will be generally admitted, that wherever the constitution is weakened by destitution, dissipation, or unhealthy atmosphere, or any other cause, the suscep- tibility of contagion is greatly increased, and we most cordially concur in recom- mending that Legislative measures should be adopted to remove the causes which tend to predispose the poorer classes to the attacks of epidemic disorders. In connexion with this subject, we subjoin the following statements of the average annual rate of mortality per cent, for six towns in Scotland, during five years previous to 1842, and similar statements in regard to eleven towns in Eng- land, during three years previous to 1841, taken from tables published by Mr A. Watt of Glasgow, in the report dra^vn up by him for the British Association, on Vital Statistics of large towns in Scotland. Average during five years previous to 1842 : — Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leith, 3'214 per cent. 2-864 ... 2-717 ... Dundee, Perth, Aberdeen, 2 '605 per cent. 2-640 ... 2-011 ... ' App. III., p. 144., Quest. 1604, 1605. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XXIX Average during three years previous to 1841 : — per cent Metropolis, Liverpool, West Derby, Manchester, Salford, ... Leeds, 2-673 3-537 2-320 3-563 3-371 2-720 Birmingham, Aston, Sheffield, ... Bristol, Clifton, ... 2-716 per cent. 2-405 ... 3-037 ... 3-098 ... 2-264 ... MEDICAL RELIEF. From a comparison of these statements, it does not appear that the greater pre- valence of fever in Scotland has such an effect as to influence the rate of mortality. In fact, we are inclined to believe, that when any epidemic prevails, it absorbs other complaints, and that the increase of fever cases occasions a proportional dimi- nution of the number of deaths from other diseases. 3. The next point to which our attention has been directed, is the condition of Pauper Lunatics. Great improvement has taken place in the treatment of insanity in Scotland within the last twenty or thirty years. Besides the two establishments at Edin- burgh and Glasgow, which are both on a very extensive scale, Lunatic Asylums have been erected in several of the other towns. Aberdeen, Montrose, Dundee, Perth, and Dumfries, have each a Lunatic Asylum, built and endowed chiefly by private benevolence. In Elgin also there is a small Lunatic Asylum, quite sufficient however for the wants of the county. All these asylums have accommodation for lunatic paupers, and we found them, without any exception, to be in admirable order, and under excellent superintendence. A ward of the Infirmary at Inverness is appropriated to lunatics, which, however, appeared to be but ill-suited to its pur- pose. There are also, as already mentioned, wards for lunatics in the Town's Hos- pitals at Glasgow and Paisley. There are private asylums at Musselburgh and Greenock, in which pauper lunatics are boarded. But although much has been done to ameliorate the condition of those whom providence has laid under so heavy a dis- pensation, there still remains much to be done. In some of the parishes which we visited, we found cases of pauper lunatics under most improper treatment. We may give a few of the more flagrant cases which we ourselves inspected, — " 1. Neil Gilchrist, maniac. In a dark closet ; a damp earthen floor, and a little straw on the floor, with one blanket, for his bed. No clothing but a blanket over him. Chained to the wall by a chain round his ancle. His bedstead was taken away because he tore it to pieces, and attacked the family with it. He stands almost constantly. Is at times very violent. His father has 21. 10s. from the parish for house rent for the family. The house consists of one room, besides the closet for the maniac. The family consists of the father, his wife, and six children, besides the maniac. One boy able to do for himself. One of the daughters is silly, but able to go about. All sleep in the same room ; some of them on shake-downs. The maniac is quite dangerous. The sherifiF does not know the state the son is in. " 2. John Livingston, a violent maniac. Lying upon straw on a wooden floor, in a loft above his brother-in-law's smithy. Has no clothing on him whatever. He tears all his clothes off him. Had a coverlet over him. He is very ill just now. Has not slept for two nights. Has been a lunatic for eight years. Was said to have had a stroke of the sun when he was at Buenos Ayres. He is obliged to be constantly chained.' " 3. Betty Fraser, aged forty. Unmarried. A maniac. She was taken charge of by her father and mother, and was kept in constant confinement in a garret over the room in which they lived. Her father was a mason, aged sixty-nine. — They had no other children living with them. il. a year was allowed for Betty Fraser's support. She had been for many years confined. She generally lay in bed, with a blanket, and no other clothes, about her. She was very violent if any one went into the room, and would attempt to escape when the door was opened. Her mother said she went into the room every day, but that, had it not been for a hurt which Betty Fraser got in her foot, she coiild not have withstood her. Her habits were filthy. She was never washed, and her food was put in for her at a hole in the wall.^ " 4. James Murray. Lunatic. In bed smoking a pipe. No one in the house with him. Tolerable bed and bed-clothes, but no shirt. He is not violent at present, but sometimes he is so outrageous that his feet and hands are tied, and he is bound down to the bed.^ " 5. Alexander Anderson, aged twenty-five. Fatuous, and sometimes very violent. Al- lowance 2s. 6d. a week. Lives with his mother and sister. The mother is a widow, forty- nine years of age. She sews muslin. Her daughter, aged twenty-nine, also sews muslin. Alexander Anderson is confined in a bed, which is boarded up so that he cannot get out. He has been kept in this way for nearly six years. He has no debility, but is strong and active. He sometimes gets out of his box-bed, and is with difficulty got back. He was out of bed last Sunday, and a man who lives next door was called in to help to put him back. INSANE PAIJPERS. ' App. Part II., p. 168. ' App. Part II., p. 544. ' App. Part III., p. 444. XXX REPORT OF THE He is outrageous at times, and threatens his mother and sister. They would not object to his being sent to an asylum. His food was put through the door.'" We found a practice prevalent, particularly in some of the parishes in the West of Scotland, of sending insane paupers to the Island of Arran, and boarding them there with small farmers or crofters. At ou request, Dr Hutchinson, of the Royal Lunatic Asylum in Glasgow, went over to AiTan, and examined the con- dition of many of these paupers. He afterwards furnished us with a report on the subject, which will be found in the Appendix, and from which the following is an extract : — " In procuring the information which I have now detailed, I encountered many difficulties. Enough, however, was ascertained to convince me, that the individuals who imdertake the ciire and management of paupers of unsound mind in Arran, are, with very few exceptions, ignorant, poor, and quite unfit for the task ; that many of them are on the verge of pauperism — that instead of endeavouring to find employment, where their labour would be rewarded, they are induced to remain on the island and rear families, in the hope of saving from patients enough to support their own existence ; and thus tending to increase ultimately, the pauperism of the district ; that the paupers of unsound mind detained in Arran, are wretchedly fed, their diet being in general the refuse of the potato ci'op and butter milk, ill clad, miserably lodged, and subjected to neglect and ill usage — that the medical attendance is merely nominal — that in severe bodily affliction, they seldom receive any medical aid, many dying Avithout any attempt being made to mitigate their sufferings. " With the exception of fourteen, who are at large, the patients are detained in direct violation of three Acts of Parliament, 55 Geo. IH., cap. 59 ; 9 Geo. IV. cap. 24, and 4 and 5 Victoria, cap. 60. They have been sent to the island without medical certificates, and without the warrant of the sheriff" of the county, and all confined in unhcensed houses, consequently all the persons concerned in sending or harboiu-lng them, are Uable to the penalty of 200/. or three months imprisonment for each offence. " So quietly, however, has the business been managed, that not only the sheriff" and other authorities of the district were ignorant of it, but the Duke of Hamilton's factor, who is resident in the island, was whoUy unaware of there being more than a few imbeciles boarded in the district."^ The following is an extract from the evidence of Dr Browne of the Crichton Asylum, Dumfries : — " From the state in which pauper lunatics are brought to your asylum, have you formed any opinion as to the mode in which they have been treated previously ? — I have. " And what opinion did you form ? — That It was entirely inconsistent with their com- fort and cure, and with the dictates of common humanity. They were generally brought bound, galled, In a state of shocking filth, crouching, with theu- hmbs contracted, showing that they had long been confined, or that they had been long in bed. This applies not to all, indeed, but to many. Though we do not receive fatuous patients and all cases whatever, it Is my belief that none are sent to us who can be managed in any way at home, nor until they become nuisances or dangerous to themselves and others.'" Dr Browne subsequently transmitted to us a communication relative to insane paupers in the neighbourhood of Dumfries, which will be found in the Appendix. Dangerous lunatics may be sent to an asylum by the intervention of the Procu- rator-Fiscal, under the act 4th and 5th Victoria, cap. 60, but idiots are still fre- quently permitted to go at large. Sheriff Cameron, at Tain, states that lunatics, idiots, and fatuous people are allowed to go at large until they become dangerous.* This we believe to be the custom generally over a great part of Scotland. The desire on the part of the parochial authorities to save expense is, no doubt, one great cause which prevents lunatics from being sent to an asylum at once ; yet we are assured that the system of delay is often one of false economy. In- deed, there can be no question that, if an insane person is sent to an asylum, im- mediately on his becoming deranged, the chance of his recovering is far greater than it would be if he were sent at a later period. Dr Hutchison says upon this point, — "It Is a common-place axiom that the cnrabihty of disease Is in an inverse ratio to the time which elapses before it is treated, and insanity is no exception to the rule. It is, more- over, a disease which Is never cured without treatment. " Laying, however, humanity and the interest of the patient aside, it may not be amiss to state that the expense of treating a case of Insanity of six months' standing is, at an average, more than triple what it would have been if placed in an asylum within the first six weeks."' And farther on, with respect to insane persons allowed to go at large, he ob- serves, — ' App. Part III., p. 609. See also cases visited at Falkirk. HI. Janet Gentles, App. Ill, p. 842. Mr John Neil, App. Part III., f. 868. ' Ibid, p.949. ^ Ibid, p. 604, q,uest. 1076. * App. Part 11., p. 57. » App. Part l; p. 480. POOR LAAV INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XXXI " Many patients are permitted to go at large, in consequence of their being supposed to be harmless. Harmless they may have been, and harmless they might remain, under proper management ; but when left to their own guidance and the excitement of the world, no one can teU how soon their insanity may impel them to an act of violence. It is generally imagined by those not connected with lunacy, that, as long as an insane individual is quiet in his de- meanour, and does not threaten mischief, he cannot be dangerous. This is occasionally true, though, in most cases it is not so.'" It is to be regretted that the accommodation for lunatics throughout Scotland, notwithstanding the number of asylums which have recently been built or enlarged, is still very inadequate. It is desirable that the accommodation for lunatics should be increased, either by the building of additional asylums, or (which we deem a preferable plan), by the enlargement of already existing establishments. And, as the advantages of such institutions are now much better understood, and more fully appreciated than formerly, we entertain a confident hope that the necessary extension of them will soon be provided. We hold it to be a matter of considerable importance that the Parochial Boards should take measures to send insane paupers to an asylum immediately on the na- ture of their disease being ascertained. The cost of board at an asylum being greater than that for which they might otherwise be maintained, affords a strong temptation to conceal their real condition ; and it may be feared that, in any legislative measure which may be brought forward, unless a penalty be im- posed for non-compliance, some difficulty may be found in enforcing obedience to the law. We recommend, That where an insane person is in the receipt of parochial relief, it shall be imperative on the managers of the poor to send such insane person forth- with to a lunatic asylum, unless authorized by the Board of Supervision to treat him otherwise. 4. We shall next advert to the mode of dealing with applicants for relief who have no settlement in the parish, to which they apply, but are otherwise jjroper objects for parochial aid. The rule understood to be followed in this case is, that the managers of the poor are bound to relieve persons in distress, even although they have no settlement in the parish.^ We are satisfied, however, from the inquiries we have made, that the practice is often at variance with this rule. Some of the managers of the poor themselves have admitted, that in such cases the destitution must be very urgent before relief is given. Mr Jack, one of the managers of the Edinburgh Workhouse, says, — " That if it were required to prevent starvation, relief would be given. That is a case of extremity. But if it were not a case of extremity, and the man did not belong to the parish, you would not give him relief? — No."^ Again, Mr Gray of the West Kirk Parish, says, — " We as parishes here profess to provide for those who are destitute in our parish ; but if we can possibly do it, we point out the parish on which the pauper has a claim, and we give him a pass to it."* At one time there was a notice posted up at the door of the Charity Workhouse in Edinburgh, in which it was stated, — " That no person need apply, except those who have resided at least three successive years within the city parishes."^ , This notice was only recently removed. The onus of proving his settlement was thus laid upon the pauper, even in the case of an application for temporary relief. If the proof required could not be produced, all relief was refused, although no doubts might be entertained as to his being in a state of destitution. We find it to be a frequent practice in the larger towns if, from the applicant's statement, he appears to belong to some other parish in Scotland, to grant him what is called a pass, — that is, a written or printed certificate, under the authority of which the bearer is held to be entitled to pass from parish to parish on his road homeward, and to obtain such assistance as he can from the different parishes through which he travels. These passes are subject to great abuse. The number given by the city parish in Edin- burgh during the year 1843, according to a return with which we have been fiimished, was 771 ; and from Dundee alone, during the year 1842, Mr Campbell, INSANK PAUPEKS UNSETTLED PAUPEKS. ' App. Part I., p. 480. Quest. 820. ' Ibid, p. 48, Quest. 938" Mr George Smith, App. Part I., p. 3., Quest. 52. ' App. Part I., p. 18, Quest. 418. ' App. Part I., p. 36, xxxii REPORT OF THE UNSETTLED the inspcctor of the poor, states, that he had given no less than 1913 passes. PACPKK!». The complaints regarding these passes are loud and general, especially on the part of the authorities of country parishes. They are said to be a cloak for va- grancy and imposition.' The Rev. W. Paterson of Kilmarnock says, — " We have a great many persons come to us with passes, but I believe the most of them to be rank impostors."* The Rev. William Colville, Eaglesham, says, — " We have a great deal of trouble with people coming with passes from other parishes. We find a great many impostors among them. They forge passes. We have found persons who passed through the pai-ish returning again, and thus we discovered they were impostors."' The Rev. Matthew Kirkland, New Cumnock, says, — " They have been very much annoyed by persons coming witli passes from the north of England to places in the west of Scotland. They are obliged to cart them on, and when they come to their places of destination, it is found that they know nothing about them there. They are repassed to England, and again sent back from that, so that they pass through the parish of New Cumnock two or three times in the coiu-se of as many months. Transmissions of this kind have absorbed a great part of the poor funds of the parish, for they are obliged either to forward them in a cart, or to maintain them in the parish."* Mr John Thomson, Irvine, says, — " We have been very much infested with people coming with passes. I should say the majority of them were undeserving vagrants. I have detected various instances of imposture. About nine months ago, I detected four who had a forged pass, and got them confined to hard labour ; they represented themselves to be emigrants who had been shipwrecked on the coast of Ireland."^ Dr Fettes of Laurencekirk, says, — " The mode of passing paupers from one parish to another has of late been found a very great grievance, and an alteration of the law in this respect is absolutely necessary. For- merly, the kirk-session of Laurencekirk used to give 6d. or Is. to all paupers coming to them, but of late they have been obliged to refuse them, as the expense had been so enormous witliin the last few years. The magistrates in the large towns, when they find people wandering about in them, are too ready to grant passes to any parish tliat they choose to name, without ascertaining whether they belong to it or not. About two months ago, a woman, with two children, was sent through Laurenceldrk with a pass from Aberdeen to Perth. The session forwarded her in a cart to the next parish, and the following week she was returned with a pass from Perth to Aberdeen ; and the session of Laurencekirk had again to forward her in a cart to Stonehaven. Her travelHng backwards and forwai'ds in this way cost the session of Laurencekirk lis. 6d. Even if it were proper to grant passes in such cases, it appears to witness ridiculous to send paupers travelling round about the country from parish to parish, whereas, in the case between Aberdeen and Perth or Glasgow, they miglit be sent directly by a steam-boat at the expense of a few shillings. In no case should a pauper receive a pass to any particidar parish, without its being first ascertained that he or she has a settlement there."* A few days after Dr Fettes was examined, the woman alluded to in his evi- dence was found, by one of the members of this Commission, in Dundee, having been passed from Aberdeen by steam to that town. On the subject of passes we may adduce also the testimony of Mr J. Gray of Edinburgh, — " With respect to the passing of persons to the place of settlement, do you consider that the system has not a tendency to promote vagrancy ? — I do not know that we ever took that matter into consideration. We found the same party come back upon us in a month. But in that case we always pointed out that we had reheved them at such and such a time, and sent them off". But unless that be taken notice of, they impose upon the parishes."^ In cases of sudden illness, we have found it to be a very common practice that a pauper, instead of being relieved in the parish where he may have been taken ill, is forthwitli placed in a cart, and transmitted either to his own parish, or to the nearest large town, whore there may happen to be an Infirmary. Captain Miller, of the Police Office, Glasgow, has furnished us with several cases of this kind, in addition to the following two, which are stated in his evidence. " On the afternoon of Wednesday last, an old man, in a very feeble state, was brought to the police office, having been foimd lying on the street, by one of the officers. The surgeon of the establishment visited him, 'and his case was brought under the notice of the proper officer at the town's hospital. In the course of yesterday afternoon he was taken away to Langloan, ' App. Part III., p. 107, Quest. 768. ' Ibid, p. 454. ' Ibid, p. 387. * Ibid, p. 430. ' Ibid, p. 496. See also Rev. Mr Christison, Biggar, App. Part III., p. 812 ; Rev. IVIr Elliott, Peebles, App. Part HI., p. 819 ; Mr Palmer, Kirkurd, &c., App. Part III., p. 818. " Ibid, p. 66. ' App. Part I., p. 43, Quest. 946. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. xxxiii Old Moiildand, on a cart, from the hospital, on which parish he was supposed to have a legal unskttlkd claim. The poor man died before reaching Langloan, and his body was returned to Glasgow. i'aupkus. There can be no doubt that his death must have been precii)itatcd by the want of that treatment which he would receive in such an hospital as I formerly recommended. I'asses. " There is a poor man at present lying in the office, who was sent from Girvan in Ayr- shire, on a cart, and relieved by the various parish authorities. He was brought to the town's hospital last night, but was not admitted, although the barony parish rooms were shut. He was relieved with (id. at the hospital, and sent to the police office, where he is still lying. These are only two out of numerous cases of the same nature. It is a common thing to see persons brought on carts to the infirmaiy, town's hospital, &c., who cannot get admittance in consequence of its being doubtful to what parish they belong.'" The Rev. S. Traill states a case which happened at Arbuthnott, — " A person who used to harbour in, and resort to Kinneft', and who had no pretence to any settlement in Arbuthnott, was taken ill in Kinneff, and afterwards put into a cart by one of the elders of that parish, carried into the parish of Arbuthnott, and tilted out of the cart upon the road side, near a farm-house there, without notice being given to any person. She was found by the owner of the house, speechless from cold and disease. He took her into his house, where she remained for thirty days. She was then removed by the session to a cottage procured for her, where she died at the expiry of other thirty days. The parish of KiunefF refused to reimburse the parish of Arbuthnott for the expenses incurred on her account, at least they have declined doing anything."^ The Rev. P. Brown, Rutherglen, says, — " I recollect a case of a man coming with a pass from the parish of Dalziel, coming through Hamilton, Blantyre, Cambuslang, and Rutherglen, to Neilston. He reached Rutherglen about eight or ten o'clock at night. The kirk-treasurer was not at home, and the carter who brought the man, threw him out of the cart upon the street, at the treasurer's door. This mandied two days afterwards, and the doctor who attended him, said that he ought not to have been removed from Dalziel in the state in which he must have been when he was sent from them."^ The Rev. Alexander Niven, Balfron, says, — " I remember cases of persons who were brought to our parish, who were not in a fit state to be removed. For example, I remember a case of a woman being brought in a cart to us, either from Kippen or Fintry, who was in a kind of low fever. It appeared to me that she ought never to have been removed from her bed. She did not belong to our parish, but we thought her so ill, that we gave her relief until she was in a fit state to be forwarded."'' The Rev. Andrew Syme of New or East Kilpatrick, — " Paupers have been brought in carts from other parishes to my parish in a state of health unfit to be removed. I remember two distinct cases of women who were brought to me in sickness. They were so ill that I did not forward them, and they died under my super- intendence. One of tliem died in one of my outhouses, and the other died in an uninhabited house in the neighbourhood."* Mr John Montgomery, Dairy, — " We are a good deal ti'oubled by people with passes, — we are pestered with them. We generally give them a little relief, if they have what we consider a regular printed pass ; but we give nothing to those coming from a distance who merely bring written passes. We regai'd such as vagabonds. We have had several cases of persons brought to us in carts in a state of sickness. One was the case of a man with six children brought to us from Salt- coats. He arrived between ten and eleven o'clock at night, and it was stated in the pass that he was in a fever. We considted a doctor who pronounced his disease not to be fever, so we relieved him that night, and sent him on next day in a cart, for the doctor said that he might be forwarded. The same family passed through the town about eight days afterwards. Again, two men with a pass from Saltcoats were brought to us, one of whom was in a state of fever. The doctor saw the case during the day, and pronounced it to be decidedly typhus fever, and we sent the man on to Glasgow at once, in order that be might be admitted to the infirmary there in conformity with the pass. Our regular rule, however, is only to pay from town to town."" Mr John Thomson, Irvine, — " I remember one instance in which a pauper was sent here from Kilwinning in a state of fever in a cart. Kilwinning is only three miles from Irvine, and the pauper was to be passed on to Girvan. I forwarded him to the next parish. He complained very bitterly of having been forced to leave Kilwinning, and stated that he had been four days in bed before he was sent away. The carter who assisted in carrying him from his bed to the cart confirmed the statement."' Mr M'Lellan, Clerk to the Heritors of the Parish of Annan, — " He knew one old woman who was sent back upon them six or seven times, and after ' App. Part 1., pp. 462, 46.3. = App. Part III., p. 60. ^ Ibid, p. 388. * Ibid, p. 449. ' Ibid, p. 455. •* Ibid, p. 494. ' Ibid, p. 496. e XXXIT REPORT OF THE UNSETTLED PAUPERS, PasMS. Relief to be given by Parish in which a Pauper is found destitute. Power of Removal- being sent out at one end of the town, was carted round the country, and sent into it again at tlie other. He believes that old woman was carted from one place to another till she actually died travelling. This case happened about three years ago. He is not certain whether she is dead or not ; but he never heard of her again. She was in a dreadful filthy state last time he saw her, when she was laid down by those who brought her upon the street.'" Although the system of passes is sanctioned by the statute 1579, c. 74; and by the Proclamation of the Privy Council, 11th August 1692, it cannot be supposed that it was the intention of the Legislature to countenance the abuses, which have been found to arise from it. Before granting a pass, or removing a pauper from the place in which he is, some means ought to be taken to ascertain to what parish he belongs. In cases of sickness, it should be incumbent on the parochial authorities to obtain a medical certificate before removal. Since the law provides, that the Parish, furnishing interim relief to a pauper, has a right to recover the outlay from the Parish ultimately found liable for his maintenance, there can be no hard- fihiji, -we think, in enacting that the Parish in which a person is found destitute shall be bound to afford relief until the Parish of his settlement be ascertained. We recommend, therefore, That, in all cases, the parish in which a Pauper is found destitute, should be required to relieve him forthwith, provided he be a proper object of parochial relief, and that such relief shall be continued until the Pauper's Parish of Settlement be ascertained, and his claim admitted or established ; the eofpenses of interim maintenance, and other expenses, being recoverable from the parish ultimately found liable. An enactment of this nature would, w^e conceive, be accompanied with very beneficial effects. An immediate check Avould be thereby imposed upon much of the vagrancy which at present exists. The ])retext under which many habitual beggars pass to and fro through the country, would be removed. The really necessitous would meet with prompt relief, and the public, feeling assured upon this point, would not be inclined, as at present, to yield with too great facility to the demands made upon them. The very habits which are likely to be contracted by the system of passes, even where the pauper's story is correct, and his claim upon a distant parish undoubted, are highly prejudicial. The position in which he is placed is humiliating, and many persons may thus become inured to practices, from which better feelings would, under other circumstances, have restrained them. We anticii)ate also that a measure, such as has been proposed, will be the means of procuring relief for many of the cases, which are now either altogether unat- tended to or only temporarily relieved in a House of Refuge. On referring to the cases brought forward by Dr Greville,^ Captain Thomson, and others connected with the Edinburgh House of Refuge, and to those, Avith a statement of which we have been furnished by Mr Reid,* the superintendant of the House of Refuge at Aberdeen, it will be seen that the great majority of the persons mentioned by these witnesses were proper objects of parochial relief, but that either from doubts having arisen as to the parish of their settlement, or from their claim being upon some distant parish, they stood in need of temporary aid, until an application could be made to their proper parish, or their legal claim established. We would, however, suggest the propriety of affording every facility, in order to ena>)le a parish, which has advanced money by way of interim relief to a pauper belonging to another parish, to recover the advances made without difficulty or delay. Our attention has been called to several cases in which applications for re-payment of such outlay have either been left unnoticed, or refused on the ground of want of funds.* It appears, indeed, from the statements of several of the clergy in the Highlands, that it is a common jiractice there to pay no regard to such applications. We are of opinion, therefore, That an Officer should be appointed for each Parochial Board, in whose name the Managers of the Poor should pursue and defend actions. In connexion with this subject, we have also to propose. That a Power of remov- ing English and Irish Paupers shottld be introduced hito Scotland, similar to that which now exists in England with respect to Scotch paupers. An English or Irish jjauper cannot at present be remoAed from Scotland to his OMn country without his consent. The number of persons who are constantly App. Part III., p. 033. ' App. Part I., pp. 94, 101, 102. ' App. Part II., p. 668, et acq. _.. . Parti., "~ " -^^-. --— . _ . . _ - * Mr J. S. Brown, Paisley, App. Part Quest. 8638. !., p. 577, Quest. 10,547 ; Mr Black, Greenock, App. Part I., p. 49, POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. XXXV immioTating into Scotland in search of employment is considerable. Such persons occasionally, from accidents or other causes, become objects of relief before they have acquired a settlement. In those cases there are no means of compelling them to return home and seek relief in their own country. From the evidence which has been adduced, it appears that the expense incurred in Scotland with reference to this class of persons is at present considerable. It is also matter of complaint, particularly in the border parishes, that the re- spective laws of settlement in Scotland and England operate to the prejudice of the former country. It is felt to be a hardship that an Englishman, by an industrial residence of three years in a Scottish parish, can acquire a settlement in that parish ; while, on the other hand, a Scotchman can never, by mere residence, acquire a settlement in England. We conceive, therefore, that if the power of removal, now possessed by the parishes in England, is to be continued on its present foot- ing, a reciprocal power ought to be vested in the parochial authorities of Scotland. The evils attendant on the present state of the law are severely felt also by paupers themselves, and particularly by English paupers, who have not acquired a residence in Scotland. Whatever remedy may be devised, it is quite clear that matters ought not to be allowed to continue in the state in which they are described to be by the Rev. James Roddick of Graitney. " They have had a great many cases of Scotch paupers intended to be removed to Scot- land, who have been left in their parish as the first parish on the border. They are brought in carts by the English authorities, and they have to forward them to the next parish ; and one of tlieir great difficulties is, that the English border parishes will not receive English paupers in the same manner, but have occasionally seized the horses and carts, and sent the paupers back. This difference in the practice makes their parish the receiver-general of Scotch paupers sent back from England, and of English paupers sent to England, and fre- quently exposes the English paupers to veiy great hardships. They can get quit of the Scotch paupers, but they cannot get quit of the English ones. On an average, three or four families in the year have been returned upon them from England, who had been forwarded from the interior of Scotland in carts to the borders ; and about three or four paupers, on an average, in the month, are removed to Graitney from England ; and there are, on an average, three or four cases in the month of paupers brought to tliem from the interior of Scotland^ who are, in fact, transmitted to England. The proportion, however, of the English sent back to England is not so great as that of the Scotch paupers sent back to Scotland. This is owing, in witness's opinion, to the difference of the law of settlement in the two countries. In the cases where they do manage to transmit English paupers to England imknown to the authorities, the way in which tiiey manage is as follows : — If they are able to walk, which they sometimes are, although brought in carts, they advise them to walk on a little way into England, and they then apply for relief. When they have once done this, they generally get transmitted in some way or other. When the paupers arc not able to walk they give a carrier 2s. 6d. to convey them to the vicinity of Longtown or Carlisle, and he then puts them down on the road-side. This is done with the approbation of the paupers themselves, as they are made aware of the circumstance that their horses and carts would be seized if they were conveyed directly to one of the authorities. This often subjects them to gi'eat inconve- nience and hardship, and even danger. He is well aware that a considerable number of those who have been returned from England have been labouring there industriously for twenty or thirty years. He has questioned them on the subject, and this was their own statement."' 5. The next point under this head relates to the Education of Pauper Children. It may seem surprising that any doubts should exist as to the legality of dedi- cating a portion of the poor fund to purposes of education : for the culture of the mind would appear to be as necessary, where a destitute child is dependent on the parish for relief, as the supply of food and raiment for its body. We have found that, generally speaking, these are the views taken by the Managers of the Poor. In most parishes provision of some kind or other, is made for the education of pauper children. It frequently happens that the means of education are afforded by the charity of private individuals, and in many towns the pauper children obtain admission to a free school. In some parishes the enactment of the stat. 43 Geo. III., cap. 54, sec. 18, is carried into effect, which requires the Parochial School- master " to teach such poor children of the parish, as shall be recommended by the Heritors and Ministers, at any parochial meeting." In other places this regula- tion may not have been enforced from a feeling of reluctance to impose this addi- tional burden, without some recompense ; but in general the duty of teaching poor children is voluntarily and readily undertaken to a great extent, by the Parochial Schoolmasters. We think it right, however, that it should be held to be clearly UNSETTLED PAUPERS. Power of Removal. EDUCATION OF PAUPER CHILDREN. App. Part III., p. 627. e2 XXXVl REPORT ON THE EDUCATION OF PAUPER CHILDREN. DESEliTION" OF "WIVES AND FAMILIES. the duty of the Parochial Board to take care that a reo^ilar and certain provision should (as far as this is ])ossible) be made for the education of pauper children, and that they should be empowered to make arrangements for that purpose, and be furnished with the re([uisite funds. We recommend, therefore, That in each pnrhh the board of manaqers should be required to defray from the funds j)rovided for the relief of the poor, the expenses of educatincj pauper children. 6. As to Husbands deserting their Wives and Families, and the Fathers of Illegitimate Children. Cases of desertion of wives and families, appear to have increased to a consider- able extent of late years in certain places ; and an additional burden has, in this way, been thrown upon the parochial funds. The law at present provides no means of punishing criminally a husband guilty of an act of this kind. When a family is abandoned by their father, and relief supplied by the parish, there is no other mode of proceeding against the father, than by a civil action at the instance of the paro- chial authorities to recover the amount of the sums expended. This proceeding, however, is seldom attended with success. Mr P. H. Thorns of Dundee, says, — " Our experience has led us to the conclusion, that in many cases it is better for the parish to support the family, than incur the expense of prosecuting the parent who deserts his offspring.' " Have you not found the precedent in the case of Paisley sufficient ? — I am aware of that case, but I think it would be somewhat hazardous to follow that precedent, and, there- fore, that it would be desirable to have a more summary mode than wliat the law at present affords."* Mr Stewart of Hillside, near Lockerby, — " There is one point, however, to which I may refer — a class of cases wliich we find increasing rapidly, and which it is very unpleasant to deal with, I mean the cases of illegiti- mate children. They are become in some parishes a heavy burden. They are leading to great immorality and to the worst consequences. In some parishes they are almost unknown, but I fear that particularly if the system of assessment extends, it will increase. Young tradesmen about the villages, I remark, as implicated more than country servants. Country people have children apprenticed in the villages. In the cases to which I allude, the parties are perfectly unwilling to pay anything at all. In truth, nothing is paid in most of the cases that do arise, for the maintenance of the children by the fathers. Then, if the woman is of a certain caste, she is very ready to throw the child on the parish, jiarticularly now that assess- ments are advancing, and opinions as to the obligations of heritors, go to the extent of asserting claims where a pretence exists, and the parents of the woman are also very willing to throw the burden on the parish. I can perceive an increase of that feeling to a veiy great extent indeed. " Do you contemplate any legislative remedy, any alteration of the law of bastardy ? — Yes, the abandonment of the child by the parent, occurs also in the case of legitimate families. But in cases of illegitimacy, it occurs to me that they ought to be treated as deserters of their families, to be criminally tried and criminally punished. In !Moffat we tried to check it by expensive prosecutions, following them to Edinburgh, Glasgow, &c. But the thing was impossible."^ The Rev. James Donaldson, Canonbie, speaks to the same point, — " They find great difficulty in getting the fathers of illegitimate children to support them, even where they have the means of doing so, and when there is a judgment against them. " Thus, for example, men-servants to farmers and labourers, receive theu' wages weekly, and there is no fund which can be attached by a legal process. In two cases, they have incar- cerated the fathers of illegitimate children ; both cases at a very considerable expense, and they only succeeded in compelling payment in one of them. In the other, the man would not pay although lie was confined for several months. They let him out, because they found the expense of maintaining him greater than they could afford."^ And Mr Wilson, Town-Clerk of Hawick, is of opinion, — " That husbands deserting their families, and fathers of bastard children, should both be punished criminally, if they neglect to furnish the means of maintenance for them.''^ There may ])erha])S, be some delicacy in dealing with matters of this nature, but we are disposed to think that the offence would be looked upon as one of a much graver nature than at jiresent seems to be the case, if the offenders were punishable criminally. A man may hesitate to commit a crime, who would not scruj)le to incur a debt, and some cogent measures would appear to be necessary to check an evil, the extension of which is manifestly contrary to public policy. We recommend, therefore. That in addition to such civil remedies as now exist, ' App. Part III., p. 102, Quest. 6.31, 632. " Town's Hospital, Paisley, v. Cos, 30th November 1838. ' App. Part III., p. 610, Quest. 1199. * Ibid, p. 636. ' Ibid, p. 663. ' POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. xxxvli husbands or fathers nefjlecting to maintain their wives or families be punishable desertion of criminally by a summary process, in the event of the tvivcs or families becoming wives and char(jeal)le on the parish. And that, in like manner, fathei-s of illeqitimate children, families. where such fathers admit their liability, or have been found liable by decree of a competent court, shall be punishable criminally by a summary process, if they neglect to pay the aliment, and the child become chargeable. collections. It does not occur to us that we have any farther observations to make on the powers and duties of the boards of management. There remain, however, some matters connected with the subject of our Inquiry, on which we have one or two suggestions to offer. Those who are conversant with the Scottish system of administering relief to ohukch the poor^ must be aware how many persons there are who receive what is called occasional aid, mthout being admitted on the regular roll of paupers. The evi- dence of all who have had practical experience in the management of the poor funds, demonstrates very strongly the advantages which arise from affording assistance to persons who have been reduced by any temporary calamity, so as to save them from sinking in the world, and losing their position in society.^ Small sums bestowed })rivately by the minister or elders, whether by way of charity or of loan, will often help to rouse the dormant energies, and sustain the drooping spirit ; and, by such well-timed assistance, a man may be enabled to get over his difficul- ties after a season, and resume his station in the world, without the consciousness of having been degraded to the state of a pauper. One-half of the church collec- tions may by law be appropriated for these purposes, the other half merging in the common poor fund. And although in practice the collections are seldom thus divided, they are yet understood to form a fund, whence occasional aid can be given at the discretion of the kirk-session. A different order of things prevails in the city of Edinburgh, where the ministers and elders have no funds at their disposal — a special agreement having been made to the effect, that the whole of the collec- tions should be amalgamated with the general fund for the relief of the poor, and placed under the charge of the Managers of the Charity Workhouse. The ministers and elders of Edinburgh, therefore, have not the means of relieving the painful misery they are often forced to witness in the course of their spiritual visitations.^ Nothing, we conceive, can be more correct in principle than that the means of relieving cases, such as those to which we have alluded, should be furnished by voluntary benevolence, nor could any more fitting almoners be found for dispensing such charity than the ministers and elders of the church. We therefore are of opinion. That in every parish ivhere an assessment for the poor is imposed, the collections in the churches should be left at the disposal of the kirk- session of each congregation. There is something striking in the remark made by the Rev. Dr Gordon on the influence which a clergyman may gain by having it in his power occasionally to afford pecuniary relief. " In regard to the moral effect of the visit of an office-bearer on the poor of the parish, would it be greater or less if no pecuniary consideration intervened? — I think it would be much less. I am quite aware that I differ in this from some very eminent men. But, as human nature is constituted, I am quite satisfied that, but for some pecuniary assistance which I am occasionally able to give from the charity of benevolent persons, my moral influence among the people would be less." " You suppose that the influence is greater when pecuniary considerations intervene, and less when it does not ? — I have no doubt of it. 1 have to deal with persons who are in the very lowest state of society, and I cannot suppose that tliey will be open to the purest and highest motives."^ There is also another class of Poor, consisting of well-disposed . and highly re- spectable persons, of various religiousdenominations, the more deserving of sympathy from their having probably seen better days, to whose comfort an enactment in con- formity to the recommendation which we have now given, would greatly contribute, while it would have the further beneficial effect of preventing them from becoming burdensome to the general poor fund. By persons of this class, who naturally shrink from the insertion of their names in the common roll of pauiJers, an occa- ' Rev. H. Stewart, Oatlilaw, App. Part III., p. 81 ; Rev. W. B. Dunbar, Westerkirk, App. Part III., p. 518; Rev. Mr Nicol, Jedburgh, App. Part III., p. 671. ' Rev. Mr Guthrie, App. Part I., p. 88, Quest. 1G79. " App. Part I., p. 47, Quest. 999, 1000. REPORT OF THE CHUKCU COLLECTIONS. Transference of Poor Funds to New Board of Manage- ment. JMortified Funds to be Invested. sional small donation, privately administered by the clerg)Tnan or elders, %vould be most tliankfully received, llelief thus administered, through a resjiected and friendly channel, would be productive at the same time, of other happy effects — cherishing and confirming in the recipients themselves good and virtuous principles, and keeping up the respectability and independent feelings of their families and con- nexions. Not only would such an application of the church door collections be a merited trilxite of respect to the virtuous poor, and a means of enabling them to maintain their ])lace in society, without injury to their feelings. — not only would it relieve from the burden of their maintenance the poor funds raised by assessment, but its indirect effect likewise, in diminishing the amount of funds required to be thus raised, and in ultimately improving the character also of the general })oor, might be reasonably expected to be very considerable. By the introduction of assessments, and the merging, in one common fund A^ith them, of the church door collections, the latter have been in all cases greatly diminished in amonjit, and in many instances almost entirely annihilated. Nor is it difficult to assign for this result an adequate cause. The distribution of funds, supposed on the one hand to be legally exacted, and to be ordered on the other hand without distinction of character, vdl\ never approve itself to the common understanding of men, as an exercise of charity. To feel that we really dispense alms, we must be conscious that the distribution of them is regulated either according to our own discretion, or by the judgment of others, in whose prin- ciples and discrimination Ave can have full confidence. The effects, therefore, of merging in the funds raised for the poor by assessment the church door collections, and of distributing the whole according to a common rule, was to strip such collec- tions of the essential characteristics of a charitable fund, and to make the contri- butors feel that their contributions served no other practical purpose than to relieve to an equal amount, from a burden imposed on them by law, the wealthier classes of society. The disjunction of the collections from the funds raised by assessment for the poor on the common roll, may be expected to be attended more or less with an op]iosite result. Where the members of a Kirk-session possess the confidence of their fellow parishioners, and are knoAvn to be men of Christian benevolence and discernment, they will seldom be suffered to be at a loss for the means of supplying the wants, or adding to the comforts, of at least the more modest and deser\ing poor. And, on the other hand, with the collections at their free disposal, if they themselves be imbued with the spirit which ought to animate them in the admi- nistration of relief, they will not easily be persuaded that the same spirit cannot be communicated to their neighbours. We confidently anticipate, therefore, were a discretionary administration of the church door collections entnisted to Kirk-sessions, both that the amoimt of such collections would, in most cases, be greatly enlarged, and that the results, in regard as well to the character as to the condition of the poor, would be highly beneficial. We have two other propositions to make with regard to the funds for the poor, the first of which is as follows : — That all capital sums whatsoever, and all other funds ifmn church collections, in the hands of the Heritors and Kirk-session, or either of these bodies, for the use of the poor, not specially destined to other jmrposes, should, where an assessment is imposed, be transferred to the Managers of the Poor, and be at their disposal. This projjosal requires little comment. As the imposition of an assessment will have the effect of creating a new administrative body, it is reasonable that all funds belonging to the poor should fall under its management. The next proposal is, — That all funds for behoof of the poor, arising from mor- tifications or bequests, as to wJdch no special mode of investment is prescribed, and that all floating funds not required for immediate use, should be lodged either in a Chartered Bank, or invested in Government or heritable security. The common practice is to invest funds of this nature on a bill or other personal security, and we have found in one or two instances, that the whole, or some por- tion of the money has been lost, owing to the want of sufficient precaution as to the mode of investment. We think it, therefore, desirable that some provision should be made to prevent such occurrences in future. SETTLEMENT. We come now to consider one of the most important questions submitted to us — the Law relating to Settlement. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. xxxlx The present law Avhich establishes a settlement by a residence of three years in a parish, is complained of by a large class of persons, as partial and unjust. Such com- plaints come generally from the inhabitants of towns or large villages. It is alleged that there is a constant influx into the towns and villages from the rural parishes, and that an undue burden is thus thrown upon the towns. We have been at consider- able pains in inquiring into the truth of the allegations which have been made on this subject, and we have no hesitation in stating, that the evils arising from the present law, have been much exaggerated. Indeed, the prevailing impressions appear to us entirely erroneous and unfounded, both as to the motives Mhich induce persons to migrate into towns, and as to the numbers of those who, in consequence of such migration, have, after a short period of residence, become chargeable on the poor funds of the town parishes. Many witnesses in nearly every to\Ma which we visited, whether large or small, make general assertions on these points, but when their accuracy comes to be tested by an inquiry into the particular cases, the statements are not found to be supported by facts. The prevailing, and, at the same time, the most groundless idea is, that the poor flock into towns for the sake of obtaining a settlement in a town, in preference to a country parish. We have been repeatedly given to understand, that the meagre provision in the rural parishes, and the mode of administering the poor funds there, drive the paupers to seek a more liberal provision in a town. But it is admitted, even by some of those who make this averment, that the actual condition of the poor in the country parishes, is generally superior to that of the same classes in towns, and the testimony of all who have had any means of judging, is strongly corroborative of the fact. Many of the Edinburgh clergy, whom we examined, had been at former periods incumbents of rural parishes. They have had, there- fore, the very best opportunities of forming an opinion on the comparative condi- tion of the paupers. Rev. Dr Gordon's evidence, — " You had a country parish, can you tell us th(3 comparative state of the poor as regards your country and town parish ? — la the country parish every individual was in a state of comfort, compared to the town.'" Rev. John Hunter's evidence, — - " What might be the comparative degree of the comfort of the poor in the country and the town parish ? — In the one, the country parish, the poor were in as comfortable a state as could be wished, and in the other, they are in as great a state of wretchedness as can be imagined." ^ Rev. John Bruce's evidence, — " As far as your knowledge goes, you would give the same answer in regard to country parishes generally, as to the preferable state of the poor in them, compared to town parishes ? —Oh yes."^ We mav add the following extract from the evidence of Mr Wallace of Dumfries, — " Comparing the actual condition of the paupers in your rural parish, and in Dumfries, which were the best off? — I should say those in the rural parish. We knew their cases, their wants were more minutely inquired into, and their habits of course were better known. We had no other funds in that parish tlian what arose from the collections ; and when I came to Dumfries, I left about 501. of savings in the treasurer's hands."* To the concurrent evidence of such unexceptionable witnesses, we add, that, from the result of our own observation and inquiries, we are fully justified in stating that, generally speaking, throughout the Lowland parishes of Scotland, the condi- tion of the poor is greatly superior, in point of comfort, to that of the paupers in the towns ; and that in many parts of the Highlands they are better provided for, than in Edinburgh and Glasgow. It would seem, therefore, a most untenable proposition to maintain that the poor would voluntarily seek to abandon their former settlement in the country, for the sake of obtaining a provision in a town, by which their condition would not only not be improved, but positively dete- riorated. It is also said that the town parishes, being generally assessed, the more certain and rcgidar provision, which is thereby made for the poor, operates as an induce- ment to paupers to flock into towns from unassessed parishes. But in answer to this we may state, that we find the feeling common to all towns, whether assessed or unas- SETTI.EMENT. Migration from RuraJ Parishes into Towns. ' Ann. Part I., p. 49, Quest. 1032. Part III., p. 66G, Quest. 552. ' Ibid, p. 55, Quest. 1162. ° Ibid, p. 88, Quest. 1644. * App. EEPORT OF THE S^:TTLEME^"T. Misratioii fiom Kuial Parishes into Towns. sessed. We found the inhabitants of Lerwick, Wick, and Fortrose, in which no assess- riient for the poor exists, as loud in their complaints as those of Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Dundee. In Aberdeen we were told, that the parishes around being all unassessed, was the cause of the paupers wishing to fasten themselves u])on the poor funds of the town. Whereas, in Kelso and Jedburgh, m here all the adjoining country ])arishes have been under assessments for many years, the evil, as stated, was in no resiject less grievous. We have, therefore, come to the conclusion that it is neither to the inadequacy of the allowances in country parishes, nor to the existence of assessments in towns, that the alleged migi-ation of poor ])ersons from the country can be justly ascribed, and that the allegations to that effect are not borne out by the evidence. A somoAvhat more jilausible statement is, that farm servants and others find a difficulty in procuring cottages in the rural parishes after they are imable for heavy work ; and that they are therefore constrained to seek an asylum in a town. We believe that it will be found to be the case, that, occasionally, agricultural labourers, after they become unfit for hard labour, resort to toMus for the sake of obtaining light work. Those who have saved a little money endeavour to earn a livelihood by keeping cows, or a horse and cart, in the adjoining toMiis ; others obtain employ- ment, as day labourers, or in working at such occasional jobs as are always to be found in more abundance in a town than in a country parish. But of these we find that very few come to be on the poor roll of town jmrishes after a short resi- dence. It is not uncommon for persons belonging to the class of Mhich we have just spoken to reside in to\\iis while in the receipt of relief from rural parishes, and this circumstance may tend to give to many an exaggerated notion of the numbers of those, who are actually burdens on towns. It must, at the same time, be borne in mind that all agricultural labour is not so severe, as to incapacitate every one, who is advanced in years, from obtaining em- ployment in rural parishes. Mr Howden, one of the oldest and most experienced farmers in East Lothian,^ states, that it is not by any means a general practice for farm servants to leave a fami ^^hen ilv^y grow old and unfit for hard labour, but that they obtain employment at reduced wages in some of the lighter work about the farm. Another statement is, that the number of paujiers in towns is much greater in pro- jiortion to the jiopulation, than is the case in rural parishes. But little reliance can be placed on any such calculations, without a very close examination into the data on which they are made. We have already stated that there is no uniformity of practice in the mode in which the rolls of paupers are kept, and a return of the num- bers, as made up by one person, may vary considerably from a return from the same roll when made up by another. Sometimes the family relieved is reckoned as one person, and sometimes all the individuals are separately enumerated. At the same time, the fact may very probably be, as stated ; and the number of dissipated and worthless characters, whose tendency is always to harbour in toMus, will ne- cessarily swell the ranks of paupers. There is also another consideration which ought not to be lost sight of, — which is, that the rolls of the country parishes fre- quently do not represent the full number of those Mho are in indigent circum- stances, as is more generally the case in towns. There are often in rural parishes, particularly where there are wealthy resident proprietors, old servants and labourers who receive pensions either in money or in meal, or are allowed a free house and garden, by which means their names never appear on the poor roll at all. We do not say that there are not such persons in towns, but where a comparison is instituted between a towii and the adjoining rural parishes, the number of this class may safely be . said to be much smaller in the latter than in the former. We have endeavoured to sift thoroughly the allegations which were brought under our notice upon these different points. We considered the matter one of importance, not only as relating to the present state of the law in this country, but also as affecting the question of settlement by residence generally. From so great a body of evidence all bearing upon this point, it is not easy to make partial extracts without injuring the general effect of the whole. A very few references to the Appendix will show how rashly statements may be made which afterwards are found to be incorrect.* But in order to be able to come to some still more positive conclusions, we determined to investigate personally in towns in different parts of Scotland, the Mr Howden, App. Part III., p. 803. ' Mr Arnott, Perth, App. Part III., p. 230, Quest. 462; Mr Croll, Perth, App. Part HI., p. 230 ; Quest. 035-004 ; Mr Dickson, llawick, App. Part HI., p. 662 ; Mr Irvine, Hawick, App. Part III., p. 962. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. xU cases of a number of individuals, who were alleged to have been resident for three years and under seven, at the time when they a])i)lied for parochial relief. A list of 106 names was furnished to us for this i)ur])ose by one of tiie managers of the West Kirk Parish, Edinburgh.^ The paupers therein mentioned were stated to be per- sons, who, " after ages varying from sixty to eighty-five years, came into the Parish and after three years' residence, acquired a settlement," and it was added that " a seven years' residence would have prevented fifty-four out of the 106 from becoming a burden on the West Kirk Parish." We found on examining a considerable num- ber of the cases, that the period of residence ^vas not correctly stated, and that many of those persons who were said to have been only three or four years resident before apj)lying for relief, had lived in Edinburgh for the greater part of their lives. The SETTLEMENT. result of our examination Mas, that, taking the whole of the three Edinburgh that more than eighteen parishes as one parish, for the purpose of settlement, of twenty-six cases examined, there were five only in which the parties had been resident in Edinburgh less than seven years when they first applied for relief; and at another examination out of fourteen, two only had been resident less than seven years. There were thus only seven cases out of forty which were examined, and, according to the same propor- tion, there are not more than nine, or at most ten, out of the fifty-four, in which the residence had been less than seven years. The annual expense of relieving these seven cases is 19^. 4s. : an addition of three more at the same rate would give the total saving to St Cuthberts parish by a change in the present law of settle- ment, from three years to seven years' residence, at something under 28/. a year. In the City parish of Edinburgh, Me made an inquiry of a similar nature, and out of twenty-two cases produced, we found only five, which Mere chargeable on the parish by virtue of a residence of less than seven years in Edinburgh, at an expense of something under \7l. annually, besides the maintenance of two children in the poorhouse. In the City parish of Glasgow, out of a list of 107, fifty-three appeared and were examined. It Mas found, that of the fifty-three, nine only M'ould not have been chargeable, had all the parishes of Glasgow- been united for the purposes of settle^ ment. According to the same proportion, it is not likely or nineteen would have been chargeable out of the whole 107. In the Barony parish of GlasgoM, a list of 246 was produced, and seventy per- sons were examined, of whom fifty-tM'o M'ere found to have resided more than seven years in the other parishes of Glasgow, although less than seven years continuously in the Barony parish. About sixty-five therefore out of the whole 246 would be affected by a change of the law requiring residence for seven years ; being a very small proportion of 3910 paupers, or of a population of 109,241. At Dundee, there M'ere found twenty-seven cases of paupers chargeable, who had resided less than seven years at a cost to the parish of Sol. 2s. annually. At Perth, only ten ; at Dumfries, where we found the proportion to be greater than in any parish of Scotland (respecting which mo have accurate returns), there are twenty-eight persons receiving relief, whose residence within the parliamentary boundary of the burgh, is less than seven years. The expense of these twenty- eight is 119/. 4s. a year. In the parish of St Nicholas, Aberdeen, the names of the persons who were alleged to have received relief, after having barely completed a three years' residence, amounting to 180, were taken from the roll.^ The parochial authorities were only able to find fifty-six jiersons out of that number, of whom forty-six appeared and were examined. Thirty-one only were found to be in the receipt of parochial relief, and of these not more than thirteen had been less than seven years in Aberdeen, before applying to the parish for assistance. From the parish of Old Maehar, Aberdeen, thirty-six cases Mere adduced and examined, of Mliich it appeared that twenty-three Mould still have been charge- able under a law of settlement by seven years' residence, if the parishes of St Nicholas and Old Maehar M'ere united for the purposes of settlement. The Notes of the different Cases which we investigated Mith reference to this point, M'ill be found in the Appendix ; and as we took occasion also to inquire into the particular circumstances of each of the paupers examined, in order to discover at what ages they came to the toM-ns, and by what inducements they were led to resort thither, these notes along with those taken in other toM'ns, such as LerM'ick, Wick, Jedburgh, &c., will, we conceive, disclose pretty fully the class of cases which create the burden complained of, and also show the extent of that burden. ' App. Part I., p. 45. ■ App. Part II., pp. 602, 063. / Migration from Rural Parislies into Towns. xlii REPORT OF THE SETTLEMENT. Migration from Rural Parishes into Towns. By Residence. From an accurate examination of these cases, the hardship arising from the present law by which a settlement is acquired after three years' residence in a parish, appears to be comparatively small, as regards the number of aged persons, who are said to flock to towns at an advanced period of life. The majority of the cases in which the residence has been but of short duration, are those of persons, who, at an early period of life, have resorted to towns, but have afterwards been disabled by disease or accident, or of those families where the father has been prematurely cut off after an equally brief residence. If to these be added the mothers of illegitimate children, and the amount be deducted from the list of cases of short residence, the number will be found to be very greatly diminished. We must not, however, be understood to deny that cases of this nature impose, to a certain extent, a burden on town parishes. Their number, however, is much less than is generally supposed ; and it may, on the other hand, be alleged by some, that if large towns have disadvantages on this point, they have a sufficient compen- sation in the advantages, which they derive, from the increase of population attracted towards them. But the really important question is, whether the inconvenience, such as it is admitted to be, is of so serious a nature as to call for a remedy by an alteration of the present law ; and again, whether if a change of the law be desirable, it is to be brought about by an abolition of the law of settlement by residence altogether, or by a prolongation of the period at present requisite for acquiring a settlement. We are not disposed to recommend that settlement by residence should be done away Mith. We do not think that anything has been brought forward in the evidence to show that practically it is productive of iardship, or injustice. It seems too the most natural, and, at the same time, the most just principle to adopt, that the parish in which a man has resided for the greatest portion of his life, and Mhich has reaped the benefit of his labour and expenditure, should bear the burden of his maintenance when he is unable any longer to gain a livelihood for himself. This principle is indeed generally admitted. The only difficulty arises in determining how long a period of residence should be sufficient to make the principle fairly applicable, and thus attach the liability to a particular parish. The period of residence which entitled to parochial relief was fixed by the act 1579, cap. 74, at seven years. This was altered to three years by the act 1672, cap. 18, and although in the Proclamation 29th August 1693, the term of seven years is again mentioned, it has long been established that three years' residence is sufficient, by law, to constitute a settlement. It may appear to be unadvisable to recommend the alteration of a long esta- blished system, against the practical operation of which no serious objection has been substantiated. Still, on the principle that industrial residence is to be held the foundation of the right of settlement, the establishing of such right by a resi- dence of only three years, does, in theory at least, appear to be liable to considerable objections. It seems hard that a parish, in which a man has been industriously employed for only this limited period, perhaps in his declining years, when no great benefit could result from his industry, should be burdened with his support, while the parish, where he may have resided for a much longer time during the most active and laborious period of his life, should altogether escape. If residence is a right principle of settlement, the extension of the period necessary for the acquisition of a settlement would seem, in the particular case now mentioned, to be only in ac- cordance with justice. It is not enough that no serious evil has actually resulted from the law as it now stands. Evils, though slight in themselves, are borne with impatience, when an obvious and easy remedy is refused to be applied for their correction. The public, in a case like the present, cannot be expected to be satisfied while the law is inconsistent with its professed principle, and therefore leaves room for the occurrence of injustice. Besides, the argument may be said to be as strong on the one side as on the other. What practical c\'il, it may be asked, can result, on the supposition that the law is sound in its principles, from bringing its pro- visions into a more perfect state of conformity with those principles ? If town parishes have not suffered from giving a settlement at the expiry of only three years, what evil can arise to country parishes from extending the period requisite for establishing a settlement to seven years ? There is, however, one element in the case, viz. the difficulty often experienced, in determining the parish of a pauper, which, if the period of residence, required for the acquisition of a settlement, M'ere to be much extended, would certainly invalidate this application of the argument. The difficulty alluded to is severely felt even under the present law, and, were POOR LAW INQUIRY COIMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. xlUi a continuous residence of seven years — the period recommended by many of the witnesses — to be required for the establishment of a settlement, while no addi- tional facilities were given for obviating the above-mentioned difficulty, the evils that must result in resjiect of it from such a state of the law \^ould be tenfold greater than are those, which it is now sought to remedy. Especially would this be the case as to paupers resident in towns, consisting of several parishes, where, from the frequent change of residence among the lower classes, it is found to be extremely difficult to trace continuously their places of residence, for even a very short period. In these circumstances we have to balance opposing evils, and to satisfy our- selves with giving only such effect to the principle of settlement, as may appear on the whole to be consistent with what is fair and equitable in practice. The difficulty above adverted to would seem likely, hoAvever, to be obAiated, to a considerable ex- tent at least, were the recommendation already given, viz. to consider as one parish, in respect of settlement, all the parishes of which a large town may consist, to be carried into effect. The proof of settlement would, in such circumstances, we conceive, be so much facilitated as to make it consistent with a due regard to the operation of the law, to give the required extension to the principle of residence for the establishment of a settlement. Subject to this recommendation, therefore, as to the consolidation of large towns into one parish for the purposes of settle- ment, Ave think an extension of the period necessary for establishing a right of settlement from three to seven years, would be an improvement. In accordance with the views now expressed, we recommend That the period of residence for acquiring a settlement be extended to seven years, and that industrial residence, by means of whi^ a settlement may be acquired, shall be understood to mean residence, where a party maintains himself without parochial relief, or having recourse to " common begging," either by himself or his family. Difficulties are at present frequently experienced in determining whether a pauper's residence has been industrial or not; and we find that the practice of different parishes is not uniform as to their mode of dealing Avith this subject. Mr Grainger, a gentleman of great experience in the county of Roxburgh, says,— " There has been a want of uniformity in the decisions as to the kind of residence neces- sary to acquire a settlement, and it is proper that this should be more particularly defined, in order to prevent the recurrence of such law-suits as have already taken place on the subject." ' . The rule of law should be clearly defined ; and we think it better to adopt the rule of industrial residence, as above explained. We have expressed our approval of the principles of the present law of settle- ment by residence, and our objections to its abolition. It has been found, on the whole, to Avork Avell in Scotland, and has not in any Avay interfered Avith the free market for labour, either as regards the employers on the one hand, or the labourers themselves on the other. But if a law of settlement by residence, even with the prolonged period of seven years, be alloAved to continue in Scotland, and if there be no settlement at all in Ireland, and no settlement save that by birth in England, as is contemplated by the last Report of the Poor Law Commissioners,^ English and Irish Paupers would be throAvn as burdens upon Scotland, without there being any means by which Scotch Paupers may acquire a settlement in England or Ireland. This want of reciprocity, we haA'e already alluded to as a subject of frequent complaint in the Border parishes, and along a considerable part of the West Coast ; and Avith the rapidly increasing intercourse betAveen the different countries, by means of steam-boats, raihA'ays, &c., the evil is likely to be- come one of much greater magnitude than formerly. It might be desirable to establish one general rule of settlement over the three portions of the United Kingdom ; but we doubt whether there be any one principle AA-hich could be universally applicable, except that of birth, and Ave are certainly not prepared to recommend the adoption of a Birth settlement only, as suitable to the present con- dition of Scotland. The difficulty arising from the want of a registration of births, ■would, of itself, prove a great obstacle to any such rule being adopted. With these views, we have been led to consider in what way the settlement by residence may be retained, Avithout throAA'ing upon the parishes in Scotland any undue burden from English and Irish Paupers acquiring a settlement by residence in them ; and we think that this may, without difficulty, be carried into effect by a laAv, enacting. That a settlement by residence can only be acquired by natives of Scotland. SETTLEMENT. By Residence. To be extended to seven years. To be acquired only by natives of Scot- laud. ' App. Part III., p. 666. ' Ninth Report of Poor Law Commissioners. /2 xKv REPORT OF THE SETTLEMENT. Further Amend- uients yf Law, ABLE BODIED. There are two minor points connected Anth the law of settlement, vhich arc at present involved in some doubt, and which ouvn, and the funds better administered. " You think the inspection would work better? — The whole system could be better managed. " Do you think you are more likely to get thirteen efficient superintendents of work than two or three ? — Yes, and for this reason : — That we avoid what is a very serious evil — all chance of combination among the men. You have ability to break them up into small parties. There is not so much communication for evil purposes."^ In these views of the evil of centralizing the administration of relief to able- bodied persons, we entirely concur. The system of centralization, in bringing under a common management, during a period of distress, all the able-bodied poor, for example, of a large manufacturing town, and in supplying them with work of the same description, and in the same locality, appears to us to proceed on a principle at variance with that which sound reason points out as applicable to the case. Individual exertion is thus repressed, facilities are afforded for dangerous combinations, and the dispersion of a redundant labouring population, the only effectual remedy for such a state of things is thrown into the back ground. It is no doubt true, that the mode in which the funds raised for the relief of the able- bodied, by voluntary contributions and subscriptions, have been hitherto usually administered, is not free from these objections. Under present circumstances, however, it may be hoped that the error will be corrected by experience ; whereas it is the necessary tendency of giving support from an assessment to confirm and perpetuate it. Unless then it is held, that the experience of late years has proved that the des- titution arising in times of great commercial and manufacturing distress, cannot safely be left to be supplied by the spontaneous efTorts of public and private benevolence, which the recurrence of such times may be expected to call forth, we must deprecate recourse to any less provisional fund of relief. But no such proof has been given ; for if we except the individual cases of hardship incident to the commencement of periods of depression, for the relief of which a temporary assessment is obviously as inadequate as a voluntary contribution, our evidence from medical men, as well as others, countenances an opposite conclusion. In fact, medical witnesses have ascribed the comparatively low mortality of some of those periods of distress to the circumstance of better and more regular provision having been made for the operative classes during such periods, than they had been able, or at least managed, at other times to make for themselves. In these cir- cumstances, we cannot perceive either that a necessity for innovating on the system of relief for able-bodied paupers now in use, has been made out, or that any beneficial consequence whatever would be likely to result from the adoj>tion of a measure of temporary assessments. And if the contemplated innovation is unlikely to be attended with any immediate practical result of a beneficial character, there are unquestionably, in our opinion, strong reasons which render its adoption highly inexpedient. We have already admitted, and it appears also from the evidence collected by us, that the mode of administering funds raised by voluntary contributions, which has hitherto, for the most part, been followed in Scotland, is liable to some objections. Besides, however, having the merit of having answered, in a manner not unsatisfactory, the object contemplated, the present system has the very great additional merit of admitting, as its imperfections come to be discovered, the gradual removal or correction of them by the hand of experience, without the necessity of Legislative interference. On this point, the evidence of Mr David Reid, who was treasurer from June 1842 to July 1843, for the operative relief fund in Dunfermline, gives important information. The statements made by Mr Reid, with reference to the operation ' Mr W. Johnston, App. Part I., p. 205, Quest. 3460, 3474. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. Ux of the fund referred to, are confirmed, it mav be observed, by what has been adduced by other witnesses, as to the operation of similar funds in most of the large manu- facturing towns of Scotland. In Dunfermline, within the period above mentioned, there were expended from June 1842 to November 1842, 508^. ; from November 1842 to April 1843, 681/.; and from April 1843 to July 1843, upwards of 440/. " The funds," the witness observes, "were again exhausted in July 1843. An attempt was again made chiefly by the operatives themselves, to raise a new subscription, but witness believes that the sum raised was of trifling amount, and he can give no information in regard to the disbursements, as he then ceased to have any connexion with the management. The impression had been gradually gaining upon him, that the effect of continuing to provide for the unemployed operatives, by means of subscriptions, was anything but beneficial. He conceived that if they had been left to look out work for themselves, and to take employ- ment on such reduced terms as could be procured, the diflSculty would have been sooner and more easily got over ; with the exception of a certain number of loungers, who were better off while the relief fund was being admmistered, than they had been in periods of ordinary trade, witness has reason to beHeve, that the workmen, subsequently to ithe discontinuance of relief, generally got into employment. Many of them left the town, and were engaged in country labour. Subsequently to this time he heard of no complaint of want of employment during the remainder of the summer. Witness' feeUng, and that of others of the subscribers, was, that the workmen should have been left to shift for themselves. When the second subscription was exhausted, in the month of April, he is inchned to think that if they had then been left to their own free exertions, and the market for labour laid perfectly open, they would have been able to provide for themselves. Complaints were again raised for want of employment, about October last, occasioned chiefly, as witness beheves, by the failure of one of the principal manufacturing establishments in the town. He beheves that a considerable number have been thus thrown out of employment, but cannot state how many. He under- stands that meetings have been held with a view to the consideration of such measures as may be deemed necessary to meet the emergency. He has not, however, attended these meetings, because he knows that the workmen have been offered employment, though at reduced wages, and that the weavers' committee in the town decUned accepting of it.'" The fact stated in the concluding sentence of the above extract is confirmed by the testimony of other witnesses. The Rev. P. Chalmers, minister of Dunferm- line, says, — " He understands that the number of unemployed workmen at present in the town was reported at a meeting held on Monday last, to be from 500 to 600, and that it might pro- bably increase. He heard an offer made of work to those persons at a reduced rate of wages. A manufacturer in DunfermHne came forward at the pubhc meetmg and pledged himself to employ every weaver in the place, at present out of work, till the end of April or May next, at a reduction of twenty-five per cent, on the rate of wages at present paid. The same manufacturer," the witness proceeds, " who made the offer above referred to, stated, that though the rate at which he proposed to employ the workmen, was twenty-five per cent, under the rate in the table of wages, it was yet fully twenty per cent, above what many of the workmen are now making. Because those that cannot get employment according to the table of wages, purchase yam upon their own account, and after weaving it, sell it to manu- facturers or merchants at so low a rate, that what they receive for their labour, is twenty per cent, under the wages wliich he offered. The manufacturers knew this from being able to purchase the cloth in the market of Dunfermline at that reduced price."^ The following extract from the evidence of James Hunt, Esq. of PittencriefF, is to the like effect, and has an additional value from the important suggestion thrown out in it, as to the most advantageous mode of applying funds raised by subscrip- tion, — " A manufacturer and dealer," his evidence bears, " in the coarse description of goods above mentioned, offered a few days ago to employ from 500 to 600 workmen, now idle, at a reduction of twenty-five per cent, on then- wages. A committee of these workmen waited upon witness yesterday to ask him to subscribe for the rehef of their distress, and to consult him as to the propriety of accepting the offer of work at reduced wages. Witness told them that he would subscribe for the reSef of their immediate wants, but that it was necessary that they should employ any money which they received from subscriptions in sending their young men to find work in other places, as it was obvious that there were more people in Dunfermline than could find employment in it, unless they chose to work at the reduced rate of wages ; that with regard to the question of wages, it was quite plain that the rate must always be regulated by the proportion which the demand for labour bore to the number of persons wanting employment, that is, by the supply and demand."' For a detailed account of the system of management adopted at Dunfermline, in regard both to the admission of parties to the benefit of the relief fund, and to the provisions, in accordance with which the administration of relief was regulated, we refer to the Appendix. It is sufficient for our purpose to observe here that the ABLE-BODIED. Condition of La- bouring Population in large Towns. ' App. Part III., p. 356. ' Ibid., p. 357 ' App. III. p. 369. h2 REPORT OF THE ARLE-BODIED. Condition of La- bouring Population in large Towns. management of the Dunfermline relief fund, was the same in all material respects, with the management of the funds raised for similar objects in the other large tOAvns. And as the management was the same, so also were the results. Indeed, as we have already intimated, the substance of the whole of that part of the evi- dence which relates to the operation of funds raised for the relief of the able-bodied poor, and administered in the manner usually adopted, may be held to be comprised in the extracts which have now been adduced. The experience of the operation of such funds, obtained in the case of Paisley itself, would be found, if fully investi- gated, to be in perfect accordance with this general result. We may, therefore, regard the extracts which have been made from the Dunfermline evidence, as embodying on the subject to which they refer, the findings of the general experience of the large toA\iis of Scotland. If, then, we take the Dunfermline evidence in this extended point of view, it appears fully to warrant the conclusion, that any Legislative interference with the mode now in use in Scotland of providing funds for the relief of able-bodied paupers, would be highly inexpedient. The danger of authorizing the levying of a temporary assessment for the support of such persons, and, consequently, of recognizing in them, even indirectly, a legal right to relief, is sufficiently manifest, from the fact, that a large number of able-bodied workmen were desirous, in the circumstances which have been specified above, of being supported by charitable contributions. When charitable contributions were, in such circumstances, applied for, and, in some instances, actually obtained, it may readily be imagined how importunate would have been the demands of the applicants, and how bitter their disappointment, in case of a refusal, could they have pointed to a statute expressly authorizing the imposition of an assessment for their relief, and have made a direct appeal to the parties, invested by law, with the power of imposing such assessment. — Butwhile the danger of having recourse to assessments is thus sho^\Ti on the one hand, it is highly satisfactory to contemplate on the other, the perfecting through experience of the system of relief now in operation. How far it was advisable to stop suddenly, in July 1843, the supply of relief to the destitute unemployed of Dunfennline, we presume not to determine ; but certainly, if the parties who were then thrown upon their ovra resources, found, on dispersing themselves, but little difficulty in procuring employ- ment, the pressure on the funds, which had been raised for their support might have been greatly diminished, had their dispersion been gradually and judiciously promoted at an earlier period. They would have been likely to find employment in the country as well in summer 1842 as in summer 1843, and as Avell in the months May, June, and July, of the latter year, when they were still in the receipt of relief, as in the months immediately following, when they were left dependent upon their own exertions. We cannot but be of opinion, having before us the fact which has been stated in evidence, that had the more deserving among them been encouraged from the first, partly, perhaps, by small pecuniary donations, and partly also by the interchange of friendly communications relative to their capabi- lities and views, to go in quest of employment for themselves, such employment would, in most instances, have been found. By the adoption of this mode of relief, their full sympathies would have been on the side of their benefactors, hope would have been animated, energy would have been stimulated, each man would have felt both that his distinct individuality was preserved to him, and that he was accounted worthy of an honourable confidence, and each, therefore, would have exerted himself to the utmost to obtain the means of earning his own subsistence. Indeed, under such an administration, it is more than probable, that but a few months would have elapsed, from the commencement of their distress, until most of the Dun- fermline workmen had regained their independence. It is to an administration of relief funds of the character adverted to that experience is now directing public attention, and that the evidence which we have been considering, as well as much more that might be adduced to the same effect, obviously points. It is a great step in advance to have ascertained, from the results of experience, " that the effect of continuing to provide for unemployed operatives, by means of subscription, is anything but beneficial." It is a yet more important step taken, in the same direction, to have discovered that the proper application of the funds which may be made available for meeting the evils of periods of distress, is to facilitate the dispersion of such persons, and their subsequent independent employ- ment. With these and the like encouraging results before us, we cannot doubt that if the improvements now in progress be left to develope themselves, un- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. Ixi disturbed by Le^slative interference, a method of providing for such emergencies of distress as may occasionally arise, will be gradually perfected, which shall be, at once, in harmony with the principles of the existing law, and highly beneficial in its bearings on all the great interests of society. Much aid in digesting such a scheme of relief may be reasonably expected to arise from an improved practical education of the working classes themselves. Recent events must have taught them the advantage to be derived from being able to apply themselves to different kinds of employment. It should be the object of an enlightened Government to provide that this lesson be not lost, and that they be supplied with both an educational and industrial training, such as, by enabling them to vary the application of their labour, according to circumstances, may elevate them to a higher level than that of mere living machines, for the production of a particular manufacture. The m orkman, then, only occupies his proper place as a citizen and as a man, and then only acquires a true independence, when he can enter into an engagement with his employer on equal terms — when being possessed of a competent acquaintance with at least the more ordinary forms of industrious application, he has it in his power, in case of necessity, to carry his labour to the general market. The attention of the operative manufacturer, as we have just observed, has been recently turned to these points. He has been made aware, more or less, of their vital importance to him, and, if now, sufficient means be provided for the varied application and expansion of his industrious powers, we confidently anticipate that the time is not distant, when questions as to different modes of relief will have less interest for him, and when he will seek, except in sickness, no other ground of reliance than the energy and the cunning of his own right hand. Thus trained also, his provident habits will be more fully called into exercise ; and being aware of the precarious nature of particular emplo}Tnents, he will take care to engage in them on such terms as will enable him, should they fail, to support himself with decency until he can find for his labour a new in- vestment. The conscious possession of an independent hand will foster alike the providence and the self-respect of an independent mind. We have been confirmed in these views by the very interesting evidence of Mr Wright, a member of the Edinburgh Town Council, and of Messrs Allan and Slater, cabinet-makers in Edinburgh.^ The individuals now named, who have all attained to a respectable place in society, were originally workmen themselves. They attribute the distinction which they have acquired chiefly to the circumstance of their having formed themselves, in early life, along with a number of other workmen into a Youths' Friendly Society, having, as one of its leading objects, the mutual improve- ment of its members in sound practical knowledge. Their evidence details the results of this society, and shows how it contributed both to the formation of indus- trious and virtuous habits, on the part of its members, and at the same time, in very many instances, to such an expansion of their minds as fitted them for higher spheres of usefulness, than those in which they had originally moved. The results given are of the most gratifying character, and afford incontrovertible proof, that, with a proper educational and industrial training, the independence of the labourer would be adequately secured. They show, in the clearest manner, that thus pro- vided, he would be alive to the evils of unlawful combination, have a just appre- hension of his own interests, and be both able and willing to co-operate effectively with his wealthier neighbours, in lightening for himself the pressure of periods of distress. In fine, having in view the not inadequate relief hitherto afforded in periods of a depressed state of trade or manufactures, by voluntary contributions, made on the emerging of such periods, and the improving system of administration, with reference to the funds thus raised, which, under the teaching of experience, has been gradually going forward, — it is our decided conviction, that if a paternal Legislature give, as we have suggested, all competent facilities to the operative classes for the more diversi- fied expansion of their industrious capabilities, and for the fuller development of a spirit of self-dependence grounded on habits of reflection and forethought, it will have done all that, in an economical point of view, is, in the nature of things, likely to promote their welfare. The latter objects accomplished, we entertain an unhesitating persuasion that, under emergencies of distress, as well as in ordinary times, the provisions of the existing Poor Law, supplemented, when required, by voluntary contribution, as they have heretofore been, will be found, on the one hand, amply sufficient to protect the labouring population, whether in town or country, > App. Part I., pp. 180, 240-243. ABLE-BODIED. Condition of La- bouring Population in large Towns. Ixii REPORT OF THE Condition of La- bouring Population in large Towns. ASSESSMENT. NATIONAX CHAEGE. ABL^BouiEi). from extreme destitution ; and on the other, conducive in the very highest degree to the steady advancement of their best interests. We strongly advise, therefore, that the Poor Law of Scotland, with reference to the important section of it, which has been now under review, shall be continued unchanged. II. We have already alluded to the great variety of practice which prevails in the different burghs in Scotland in the mode of raising funds by assessment for the relief of the ]wor. With the exception of Glasgow, where the assessment is in terms of a local statute passed some years ago, after much difference of opinion, almost every burgh has some peculiar established usage, as to the mode of carrying the general law into effect, and, as might have been expected, there are in every burgh parties ready to express their dissatisfaction with the existing order of things. A great deal of evidence has been laid before us on this subject, which will be found at length in the Appendix. We are far from denying that there is more or less foundation for many of the complaints, but we see great difficulty in applying a Legislative remedy. There will always be found persons to com- plain of the principle on which any tax is imposed. But the prevalence of any usage, and its existence for a length of time, is of itself sufficient to create a presumption of its being in accordance with the feelings of the majority ; and there are considerable advantages in leaving, as far as possible, the parties interested to their own choice of the mode in which they are to be taxed, the public object being equally accomplished by any mode in which the money is levied. The law as it at present stands is sufficient for enabling parishes to raise the requisite funds for the relief of the poor ; and, on the whole, we are not prepared to recom- mend any alteration with regard to the mode of imposing assessments. Many intelligent witnesses have recommended that the relief of the poor should be provided for by a national assessment. However specious such a plan may at first sight appear, by putting an end at once to all the difficulties arising from questions of settlement, to the expenses incurred by passes and removals, and to the complaints grounded on the undue burden thrown upon particular localities under the present law, we yet entertain decided objections to any scheme for making the provision for the poor a national charge. The establishment of a national fund, from which subsistence is ensured to all, would lead to a too general expectation of obtaining a provision from it ; nor would there be the same stimulus to strict vigilance and rigid economy, which the intervention of private interest secures in the parochial administration : but, above all, Ave Mould avoid the possibility of the provision for the poor being made use of, as a political engine, as would too frequently be the case, were its management connected with the government of the day. This subject was fully considered by the Poor Law Inquiry Commission in England in 1834, with whose reasons for rejecting the proposals for a national charge we concur. MENDICITY. We cannot close our Report without remarking on the prevalence of mendicity in many parts of Scotland. The evil is most observable in towns. In many of the country districts we have reason to believe that it has been checked to a considerable extent by the establishment of rural police; but it is still very prevalent in many parts of the country. The law, relating to vagrants, is not clearly defined, and we have found that the practice under it varies in different counties. This circumstance may probably have some influence in preventing the application of any effectual remedy for vagrancy and mendicity. Few things operate more strongly in promoting immorality than the encourage- ment of common begging, with all its train of self-abasement, dissimulation, and fraud. The low lodging houses, which beggars frequent, and the bad habits of the class of persons with whom they must often necessarily associate, soon fami- liarize their minds with vice and debauchery ; and if such be the effects upon those of mature years, what must be the result with children, whom it is a common practice for the parents to send out to beg ? The Rev. Mr M'Millan of Kirkcud- bright, deprecates on this account the permission given to paupers to beg, and states that he was anxious to put an end to the practice, " particularly as regarded children sent about by their parents. He found some of those very irregular in their attendance at school and growing up with habits of vagi-ancy."^ Mr Barclay, the Sheriff-substitute of Perth, states from experience, that begging by children is joined with acts of stealing.' We cannot, therefore, but take this opjiortunity of expressing our anxiety that something should be done to counteract this evil. ' App. Part III., p. 638, Quest. 954. ' Ibid, p. 264. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. Ixiii We believe that, if effect be given to the recommendations which we have made for increasing the allowances in certain parts of the country, — and if the system of granting passes be put under j^roper regulations, much will be thereby done to check the mischief. Indiscriminate alms-giving than which nothing can be more baneful, will no longer be excused on the plea that the parish allowance is inade- quate, or that relief cannot instantly be obtained ; and the public generally will feel it to be their duty not to bestow charity without having previously ascertained that the object is a deserving one. We believe it to be true, that the only effec- tual check to habitual vagrancy is the public refusing to give. The superintendant of police in Roxburghshire says, — " It will be impossible to put down vagrancy as long as beggars are harboured by the farmers. Witness has gone round to the farm houses, and got the masters to agree neither to serve nor harbour vagrants ; but then their wives scout him, and tell him that they are in the will of God Almighty, — and that as long as they have a handful of meal or a pickle of straw, they wiU not turn the beggars from their door." ' Begging is often a profession, and frequently a very lucrative one ; and it will never be altogether abandoned until peo])le are induced to refrain from indiscriminate charity. This would be greatly facilitated, if such measures were adopted as we found to have been tried with success at Selkirk and Kelso. Mr Main of Kelso is asked — " The only way of checking mendicity is to get the public to refuse serving beggars ? — To induce people to refuse sei-\'ing beggars, which they will always do, if they can excuse their consciences by knowing that the parties have a place of refuge to go to."^ The annual expense of the night asylum at Selkirk is only 30/. a year, and the annual average expense of the Anti-Mendicant Association at Kelso, during a period of ten years, was 20/. I5s. 6^d.,^ — by means of which 567 individuals were relieved yearly, of whom 250 received a night's lodging. Were such associations to become more general in the towns and throughout the country, and some more stringent measures adopted for suppressing vagrancy than at present exist, we are satisfied that it would very soon cease, at least to a considerable extent. Although not directly within the scope of our Inquiry, we have obtained much valuable information relating to the causes of pauperism and the means of pre- venting it. Among the former are included public houses and uidicensed pawn- broking ; in the latter may be classed Savings' Banks and Friendly Societies,—. Emigration and Education. There can be no question that much of the- misery and destitution which prevails in Scotland, is to be attributed to the excessive use of ardent spirits. Intemperance may, in some instances, be occasioned by poverty, which seeks, in the excitement of the moment, to drown the recollection of its cares and anxieties ; but we believe that intemjierance is far more frequently the cause of poverty than the effect. We fear that the excessive number of low public houses, leads many into dissipated habits, who, if the temptation had not existed, might have continued sober and industrious. On this subject we have had many complaints. In some places licenses to keep public houses appear to be granted without due attention being paid to the character of the applicants, and with little regard to the wants of the district. We think that it would be highly desirable if, by Legislative measures or otherwise, the present system of licences could be placed upon a sounder footing, both with regard to the limitation of the number and to the better regulation of public houses. Much immorality arises from this source, and incalculable misery to poor families, more especially from the encouragement to ^^ce and debauchery on Sundays.* Another evil which we have found to prevail very extensively in the larger towns, and which appears to be very detrimental to the interests of the poorer classes is the system of unlicensed pawnbroking, by means of what are called " Wee Pawns," by which great facilities are afforded for raising money, upon articles of furniture, dress, &c. The interest charged is exorbitant, the dealers not being subjected to the same control as the regular licensed pawnbrokers. In this way great distress is occasioned, and habits of improvidence fostered in those who have recourse to such modes of suppljang their necessities. From the secret manner in which the " Wee Pawn " business is carried on, great difficulty is experienced in checking its progress, and we are satisfied that it is a subject well worthy of the attention of the Legislature, as it has been productive of very mischievous consequences. ' App. Part III., p. 072. ' Ibid, p. 693. ' Mr Muir, Selkirk, App. Part III., p. 651. " Mr William Johnston, App. Part I., p. 207. MENDICITY. PUBLIC HOUSES, UNLICENSED PAWNBROKING. Ixir REPORT OF THE SAVINGS BANKS. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES. EMIGRATION. EDUCATION. Savings' Banks and Friendly Societies are, in our opinion, two of the best pre- ventives of Pauperism. Our Avish is to see them encouraged in every possible way. The Savings' Banks in Scotland ai>pear to be at present in a healthy state, notwithstanding the prejudices which they have had to encounter, and their number appears to be on the increase. Friendly Societies have suffered severely by the late depression of trade, and many even of those which had been long established, have been broken up in consequence. We have, however, satisfaction in stating that many excellent societies of this nature still continue to exist and flourish. In several large manufacturing establishments, such as those at New Lanark,* Carron,* &c, associations are formed, to which all connected with the works, are invited and encouraged by the masters and managers, to become contributors. The payments, as they become due, are deducted from the monthly or weekly wages. Societies so formed, have proved highly advantageous, as the members rarely, if ever, either in sickness or old age, become burdens on the poor funds. A more extended plan, but founded on a similar principle, was suggested to us by Mr Milne of Dundee,^ which, if it could be brought practically into operation, would, doubtless, be accompanied with the most beneficial results. One great difliculty with which such societies have to contend, is the want of accurate tables. Some representations were made to us on this subject, by Mr Macpherson, of the Compositors' Friendly Society, and we would suggest the propriety of steps being taken for the formation of correct tables for their use. We have already spoken at some length of the peculiar circumstances of the Highland districts, and of their means of improvement ; we do not think it neces- sary to recommend any Legislative measure for promoting emigration, as a remedy for the peculiar evils under which they labour. Even if it were practicable on an extended scale, we are convinced that it would form of itself a very inadequate remedy ; and were the resources, which we have pointed out as existing in the Highlands opened up, the population might, for the most part, be profitably em- ployed in their own country. In the other parts of Scotland, the supply of labour, in ordinary seasons, seldom, to any great extent, exceeds the demand. "The process of emigration seems to be carried on slowly, and by small numbers at a time ; but still with suflScient A^gour to enable parishes to get quit of their surplus popula- tion. Whether it be attributed to the system of Poor LaMs, or to other causes, improvident marriages at an early age are not frequent in Scotland. The increase of the population, during the last ten years, is much less than in either England or Wales. We find by the enumeration returns, that the increase per cent, over all Scotland, between 1831 and 1841, was 10.7, whereas in England it was 14.5, and in Wales 13.0. Before concluding our Report, we wish to express our firm persuasion, that all means for suppressing pauperism will prove insufficient, unless accompanied by some measures for promoting education. The Scottish nation has hitherto had the character of being pre-eminently an educated people. We deeply regi-et to find from the evidence that instead of an improvement having taken place in this respect, there is rather a deterioration. This fact is accounted for partly by the children being employed in manufactures at a very early age, and partly by the diminished scale of wages, owing to which, parents are less able than formerly to pay the school fees. Whatever be the cause, the effects are greatly to be deplored. The evi- dence which we have received has led us to form a decided opinion that one of the principal causes of pauperism in many parts of Scotland, particularly in the Highlands and large tovnis, is to be found in the imperfect education of the children of a large portion of the working classes. We attach to this matter the highest importance, but we do not consider ourselves authorized to offer any special recommendation as to the education of those who are not actually paupers, from the doubt we entertain of the subject being within the scope of our Commission. We have thus endeavoured, although not without considerable doubts and diffi- culties, to lay before Your Majesty, our views on the different matters to which our Inquiry has been directed. We cannnot expect that the recommendations which we have made are to give universal satisfaction ; nor can we venture to hope, that any Legislative measures will prove a complete remedy for the evils that have been complained of Our general reasonings have not led to any sanguine ' Mr R. Mason, Lanark, App. Part III., p. 405. ' Mr J. Dawson, Falkirk, App. Part III., p. 836, 'MrMUne, Dund«e, App. Part III., p. 138, Quest. 1462. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. kr expectations, and they have been confirmed by such conclusions as we have been able to form from observation and experience, and from any knowledge we have of the results of legislation on this subject in other countries of Europe. We have, therefore, been unwilling rashly to propose innovations, which we do not feel con- vinced will be improvements ; and have rather been anxious to preserve what are deemed the peculiar merits of the Scottish system. It would be easy to produce an immediate effect by additional expenditure in the management of the poor, but the greatest caution is necessary in dealing with a subject so perplexing and so important, and where there is so much risk of aggravating the very evils which it is our object to alleviate. The suggestions, which we have made, we believe to be both safe and salutary, and at the same time calculated to relieve much of the wretchedness which has been brought under our notice. 'o' All \fhich We humbly Certify to Your Majesty. Edinburgh, 2d May 1844. MELVILLE. BELHAVEN, &c. H. HOME DRUMMOND. JAMES CAMPBELL. PATRICK M'FARLAN. JAMES ROBERTSON. REASONS OF DISSENT. i REASONS OF DISSENT FROM THE FOREGOING REPORT. I. Because the proposed alterations in the Scotch Poor Law are, I am afraid, insufficient to remedy the defects which are admitted to exist in their adminis- tration. II. Because, While it is admitted that the provision at present made for the Relief of the Aged and Infirm Poor is in many parishes of Scotland inadequate, the main reliance for the supply of this deficiency seems to be placed on a proposed Board of Supervision, or Standing Commission of Inquiry, with ample powers of inspection, but with no administrative control or direct authority. But it appears to me, that the striking inadequacy of the allowances at present made to the aged and infirm poor in a large proportion of the unassessed rural parishes of Scotland, arises, not so much from ignorance of facts as from want of funds, which again is owing, in no small degree, to theories respecting the effect of any provision for the poor, even when it is restricted to the relief of the aged and the infirm. And any statements made annually in Reports, tending to show that this class of poor are in a destitute condition, will be met by the usual answer, that the only cure for such e\ils is in the moral and religious education of the young ; and that a provi- sion for the poor creates much of the misery which it relieves, but does not relieve all the misery which it creates. III. Because no proposal is made for requiringthe Managers of the Poor in unassessed rural parishes to assess themselves for the relief of the destitute aged and infirm poor; — using these terms in the most comprehensive sense, as including all those who are entitled to relief under the present law. It appears to me that the mischiefs which have been attributed to assessments for this class of poor have been remark- ably exaggerated, even although they may not be altogether visionary. On the other hand, this mode of providing for the aged and the infirm is the most equitable which can be adopted ; its general tendency, as distinguished from its invariable result, is to ensure an ampler supply of funds than can be raised by voluntary con- tributions ; and it reaches non-resident heritors, and others who may give either nothing, or comparatively little, in aid of the church collections. IV. Because it is not jiroposed to render it compulsory on the Managers of the Poor to provide medical attendance for Paupers. The arrangements for medical relief, and the power of fixing the scale of remuneration to medical practitioners, are to be left exclusively to the local authorities, who may deem that they have a direct pecuniary interest in fixing the scale of remuneration as low as possible, or in throwng altogether upon medical practitioners, as is very frequently the case at present, the burden of attending the sick poor gratuitously. V. Because it is not proposed to authorise, or to render it compulsory upon the Managers of the Poor in large towns to provide Houses of Refuge, or Poorhouses with Wards for Able-bodied Persons. But establishments of this kind, which are, in fact, identical with English workhouses, appear to me essential to the proper management of the poor in large towns ; and without them I do not see how the begging, which prevails to such a great extent in the chief to^ATis of Scotland, can be suppressed, consistently with humanity, or in accordance with public feeling. VI. Because, while in reference to towns with a population above 5000 inhabi- tants, the advantages of Poorhouses for the reception of certain classes of poor, entitled to assistance under the present Scotch Poor Law, are clearly pointed out, as subsidiary to out-door relief ; yet the erection of such Poorhouses is proposed to bo left entirely to the discretion of the local authorities. But while I admit that the arrangement of various details may be safely vested in the Managers of the Poor in each particular town, it is my opinion that the principles of dealing SEASONS OF DISSENT. kvii with a subject so difficult as that of administering relief, should be settled by the more enlarged wisdom of Parliament. And a matter of such importance as the erection of Poorhouses ought not to depend either on the honest judgment, or possible caprice, partial knowledge, or narrow views of accidental majorities in particular localities. VII. Because no proposition is made for dealing with the case of large towns, when, during seasons of depression of trade, large bodies of operatives are thrown otit of employment, and become dependent for subsistence upon public charity. It seems to me desirable, that in all large towns which have a Poor- iiouse with Wards for Able-bodied Men, the Managers of the Poor should have a discretionary power, with consent of a Board of Supenision, to assess the inhabitants, for the purpose of setting to work destitute unemployed persons, without requiring them to enter such Poorhouse. The aid of a Poorhouse with Wards for Able- bodied Persons, materially facilitates the operations of those who, in periods of depression of trade, undertake the duty of giving out-door relief to a certain number of that class. VIII. Because no alteration is proposed in the Scotch Law of Rating, which is j)eculiarly anomalous and defective. The usual mode of levying the Rate on what is called " means and substance," is similar in its main features to the Income Tax, but is unaccompanied by those safeguards with which the levying of the Income Tax has been surrounded by the wisdom of Parliament. Either, there- fore, safeguards should be introduced, for the purpose of ensuring secrecy and fairness, or the attem})t to assess supposed means and substance should be aban- doned, and the mode of levying Poor Rates in Scotland should be assimilated with that which is in operation in all other parts of the United Kingdom. EDWARD TWISLETON. SUPPLEMENT. 12 SUPPLEMENT. {^Extract from Report by a Committee of the General Assembly on the Management of the Poor in Scotland, 1839.] The peculiarities of the system established in Scotland for the maintenance of the poor in the parishes to which they severally belong may be briefly explained under four general heads : — First. — That part of the system which has for its object to raise the funds that are re- quired for the aliment of paupers. Secondly. — The class of poor entitled to relief. Thirdly. — The amount and nature of the relief to be bestowed. And Fourthly. — The description of persons to whose charge is committed the collection and administration of the funds, their powers and duties. In each of the particulars now enumerated, the Scottish is essentially distinguished from other systpms of Poor Laws. I. The characteristic distinction of that part of the system, the object of which is to pro- vide the necessary supplies for the poor, is, that it places its main reliance on the voluntary contributions of the public, and never imposes a compulsory assessment so long as hopes can be I'easonably entertained, of procuring without it the needful assistance. It is remarked in the return of a sub-committee of a committee of the General Assembly, appointed in 1817, subscribed by Sir H. Moncrieff, on which was founded the report made by the General Assembly to Parliament in 1820, that " the collections at the churches have been in use from the earliest periods of the Scottish ecclesiastical establishment, and are recognized in the acts of parliament both as an ancient and legal resource for the maintenance of the poor." It is true that a compulsory assessment for the support of the impotent poor was, at a very early period, permitted in Scotland. It was introduced by the act 1579, c. 74, and was thus nearly contemporaneous with the measure of somewhat similar import in England, which originated in the reign of Queen Elizabeth. But not only do very important differences between the English and the Scottish statutes on this subject exist, which shall afterwards be specified ; but, further, this radical distinction between the two systems has from the outset prevailed, that, while in England the scheme of assessment soon became general over the whole country, In Scotland no assessment was imposed for upwards of a century after the date of the statutes above referred to ; and when at length this measure became necessary in certain parishes, the use of it was confined to these parishes ; the rule in practice, which was acted upon in this end of the island, having been that an assessment is not to be laid on in any parish while a sufficiency of fiinds for the maintenance of the poor therein is volun- tarily contributed. The power to assess, although apparently in the original intention of the framers of the act 1579, introduced mainly for securing the suppression of common begging, has been in practice construed as a security to prevent the risk of the poor in any parish suffering from the want of funds to support them, and therefore to be resorted to in supplement of, or rather as a substitute, when such has become necessary, for the church collections and other voluntary contributions. No attempt was ever made to apply the measure at once and simultaneously in all the parishes throughout the land, in whatever circumstances their poor, and the funds for their maintenance, might stand. On the contrary, the administrators of these affairs in each parish have been in the practice of examining the circumstances in which their own parish is placed in these particulars, and of either laying on an assessment, or abstaining from doing so, as well as of regulating the amount of it annually when imposed, or discontinuing it when it becomes unnecessary, according as the state of the funds and the number of poor may seem to require. Hence it Is that recourse has been had to the measiu"e of assessment, at very different dates, in different parishes. The returns exhibit instances of certain parishes which, after having struggled long with scanty funds, have at length yielded to the pressure, and have levied an assessment — of others, chiefly in towns, or on the English border, which have succumbed more readily, and without so long or so strenuous resistance — of a third class, more numerous than either of the former, which has with greater energy and activity per- severed in the ancient practice — and even of some which, having tried an assessment, have abandoned it, and returned to the old usage, Throughout all this variety there may be Ixx SUPPLEMENT. traced a decided preference of the system of church collections and voluntary alms over that of assessment. Until nearly the middle of the last century, the funds derived from church collections, and other voluntary contributions, were found to be sufficient for the maintenance of the poor in the whole of Scotland. The first occasion of the church collections proving permanently inadequate in any parish for the maintenance of the ordinary poor was the rise and progress of presbyterian secession from the established church. This commenced in 1733, but some years elapsed before the eifect of the measure on the fimds appropriated to the poor was sensibly felt. It has been stated by Sir Henry Moncrieff, in his " Life of Dr Erskine" (p. 4G8), that, " as long as there was no secession of presbyterians from the established church, the weekly collections under the managemant of the kirk-session were in general found sufficient for the management of the poor. In some years of pecuUar hardship or scarcity, such as the four last years of the seventeenth century, or the year 1740, voluntary assistance was no doubt given, and in some instances temporary assessments were resorted to, to enable the kirk-sessions to meet the unusual emergencies. But on all ordinary occasions the resources of the kirk-sessions were considered as sufiicient, and continued to be so at least as late as 1755." The passage thus quoted, gives in few words the early history of that part of the Scottish system which is now under consideration. Although power to assess for the poor was granted at a period so remote as the year 1579, yet, down to the middle of the last century, it was not exercised in almost any of the parishes, except that it was occasionally resorted to as a temporary measure in cases of particular difficulty. In other words, in the very few instances in which assessment was imposed, it was speedily discontinued, as soon as it could be dispensed witli, and was thus considered not as the regular practice or general ride, but as an expedient which might be employed in particular cii'cumstances for a limited time. But although the growth of secession fi'om the estabhshed church, by materially diminish- ing the number of contributors to the church collections, gave the first encouragement to a compulsory assessment for the poor, yet the predilection of the people for the ancient system counteracted in by far the greater number of parishes, this tendency to assessment. Since the date of the former report, made by the General Assembly to the House of Commons in 1820, the diflSculty in many parishes of maintaining the poor, by means of the collections made at the churches, has been greatly augmented by the rapid increase of popu- lation in the country, without a corresponding increase of the ecclesiastical establishment. In this way, and particularly in the manufacturing districts, the number of paupers has been greatly multijJied, while the ordinary funds for their maintenance have continued un- improved. For want of church accommodation, and of a sufficient number of parochial ministers, large multitudes have been prevented from attending church ; or, when this want has been suppUed, and parishes having been subdivided, additional churches have been erected jn them, endowments for the new churches not being provided, it has become necessary to levy high seat-rents, and to devote the church collections at these places of worship, in whole or in part, to this and other purposes of the establishment. The deficiency of adequate means of religious instruction has also greatly tended to increase pauperism, by allowing the population to grow up free from those religious and moral re- straints which operate so powerfully to induce habits of industry, prudence, and temper- ance, and so to check the progress towards want and pauperism. These occurrences have rendered assessment unavoidable in some of the suburban parishea of commercial and manufacturing towns, in which the ordinary poor were previously main- tained from the church collections and other funds voluntarily contributed. Such was the case in the overgrown parish of the Barony of Glasgow, the poor of which were, till of late years, maintained without an assessment ; in the parish of Old Machar, of Aberdeen, which, with a population amounting to 14,000, struggled for a great length of time against the measure of assessment ; and even in the different parishes of the city of Aberdeen, in which, so lately as 1835, legal assessment was imposed. But the old system still prevails over the greater part of Scotland. The people in general are persuaded of its expediency, and, with very few exceptions, are anxious to preserve it. All who attend carefully to the true principles on which it is founded perceive and acknow- ledge that it is attended with moral effects on the people of the most important description. The character impressed by law on the church collections is, that of being the authorized channel in which the charity in every pai'ish, of all of every age, rank, and condition, M'ho attend the ordinances of religion, is made to flow. The offerings of the greater number of them may be of the smallest denomination of coin in circulation, but, when the contributors are numerous, and their contributions frequently and regularly repeated, a sufficient fund is raised by them. The moral consequences also of the institution on the coimtry, are of a highly beneficial nature. It has been remarked, as one of the peculiar beauties of the Scot- tish system, that the prevalence of the custom, among the least wealthy of the people, of putting every Sunday their mite into the poor's-box, increases their repugnance in later life, till absolutely compelled by want, to become pensioners on this fund. It was, indeed, to be expected that the practice of assessment in certain parishes, particu- larly situated, would, by the influence of fashion and example, weaken in tlxe minds of some the national preference for the opposite system. Nay, in a few of the parishes, an opinion is said to have gained ground, that the expense of maintaining the poor ought to fall on the landed interest and richer classes exclusively ; and it is alleged that the effects of this most erroneous idea may be traced in a diminution of the weekly collections, and in a backward- ness displayed by the lower orders to assist in supporting their indigent relations. But, as SUPPLEMENT. Ixxi these notions proceed entii'cly from inattention to the principles on which the institution is founded, they may be expected to give way as soon as these principles are explained to, and rightly understood by, the people. II. Having thus explained the means relied on for obtaining in each parish the funds which are to be expended in the maintenance of the parochial poor, it is proper next to advert to the description of persons to whom relief out of this fund is to be afforded. This branch of the subject very plainly divides itself into two heads : First, the general qualifications which entitle the poor to relief; and, secondly, the particular circumstances which constitute a claim in tliis description of persons over a certain parish ; or, in the lan- guage of law, the facts which create a right of settlement. In each of these points the law of Scotland possesses important peculiarities. 1. In a select committee of the House of Commons on the subject of the poor law, the following question was put to one of the witnesses : — " The Scotch act of 1579 appearing to be founded on the English statute of the 15th (14th) of Elizabeth, icith omission of the clause which directs the procimng of work for the able-bodied vagrants, is there any historical explana- tion of that material variation ?" It is no doubt true that the Scottish system of poor law introduced by the act 1579, ap- pears to have been borrowed, in its general frame and structure, from the English statute of Queen Elizabeth. But a very material variation between the two systems occurs in the particular now to be attended to. In England provision was made by statute, not only in favour of the impotent poor, but also of those who are able to work and are destitute of em- ployment. This recognition of a legal right in the able-bodied poor, though guarded at first, and limited in its nature, led, at a subsequent period, to most of the evils to Avhich the English system has given birth. In Scotland, on the contraiy, a legal right in the able- bodied poor was never acknowledged. The claims of this class of persons, as shall imme- diately be seen, were put on a totally different footing. The act 1579 did not admit of such claims ; and hence those evUs, so oppressive to the rich, and so destructive to the poorer orders themselves, which prevailed in England, have, in this part of the island, been avoided. The system also of poorhouses and correction houses never took place as a general measure in Scotland. Such establishments have been formed in one or two of the principal cities ; but, with these exceptions, the relief given to paupers is entirely what is termed " out-door" relief. The particular means by which these important variations from the English law were brought about, do not appear to be anywhere recorded. But the whole tendency and struc- ture of the Scottish rules, as administered in practice, naturally, and indeed necessarily, led to them. If the poor were to be provided for by the spontaneous contributions of individuals, and chiefly by the collections made at the churches, it was impossible that this fund could supply work for the industrious poor, and defray the expense of workhouses and of other necessary arrangements for the purpose. It seems not improbable, then, that such consi- derations as these aided the other arguments for limiting the right of relief to the impotent poor, and that thus political and moral reasons concurred together in establishing the dis- tinction between these two classes of persons. Be this as it may, the only notice taken in the act 1579 of an intention to set the poor to work, is a provision contained In the statute, that the aged and impotent poor, who may not be " so diseased, lamed, or Impotent, but that they may work in some manner of work" shall be made to labour at such kinds of work as they are capable of accomplishing, and if they refuse, shall be treated as vagrants ; a provision confirmatory of the assertion, that every idea of providing work for the able-bodied poor was sedulously omitted in the statute, and of set purjiose excluded from Its enactments. At the same time It was obvious that the situation of such people, destitute of employ- ment, was not to be overlooked, and that many cases might occur in which men of this class ought to obtain temporary relief, in times of occasional sickness or unusual calamity, although not as a matter of right. With this view it appeared reasonable that a certain proportion of the church collections should be placed at the disposal of the kIrk-sessions, In order that they, at their discretion, might be enabled to afford assistance for a time to such Industrious per- sons within their bounds, as should happen, owing to temporary sickness, or to a casual failure of work, to be In difficulty and straits. This arrangement was Introduced, and, for a length of time, established, by usage only ; and at last it appears to have been sanctioned by a procla- mation of the privy council of 29th August 1693, afterwards ratified by parliament, by which one-half of the church collections was left to the disposal of the kirk-sessions, for the purpose in part, as has since been held, of being so applied. Such are the rules of the law of Scotland on this subject — such the origin and foundation of the distinction between those who are called the " ordinary" and those who are denomi- nated the " occasional" poor. The latter receive temporary assistance only from the charity of the parish, bestowed at the discretion of the kirk-sesslon during the pressure of want. Of the former a roll Is made up, in terms of the act 1579 and subsequent statutes, and altered at stated periods, according to circumstances, by the kirk-session in each parish, and such of the heritors as may act with them. The poor whose names are thus enrolled are entitled to periodical allowances, permanently, and as a matter of legal right. By the former report made by the General Assembly, already referred to, the state and effects of the practice, with regard to the " occasional or industrious" poor, is thus described in a return of a sub-committee, subscribed by Sir Henry Moncrieff : — " The distinction made in a great proportion of the returns between the poor on the regular parish roll and the in- Ixxu SUPPLEMENT. dustrious poor, who receive only occasional supply, is of equal importance to the morals and to the best interests of the country. Those of the first class receive a constant supply from the parish funds ; those of the second are only assisted when they are laid aside from work by sickness or accidental causes, and especially during that season of the year which chiefly affects their health or suspends their usual labours. They receive at that time such assist- ance as their immediate necessities demand, for the limited period when they are in this situation ; but, when the cause which occasioned their demand ceases to operate, the parish assistance is withdrawn, and they return to their labour under a conviction, which they never relinquish, that both their subsistence and their comfort must ultimately depend on their per- sonal industry." 2. The circumstances which entitle the impotent poor to demand parochial relief from a particular parish are, that the claimant has had his residence or common " resort" within this . parish during the last three years immediately before he fell into a state of poverty and ma- bllity to support himself, and that, if he has removed from this parish, he has not, since his removal, acquired a legal settlement in any other. If he has funds of his own, or relations, who are bound in law and able to maintain him, the parish will be relieved. There is not, and never existed, by the law of Scotland, a power of removal of persons likely to become chargeable on the parish, such as was established in England by the 13 and 14 Car. II. c. 12, and gave rise to so much litigation and oppression. In this particular, as in others, the two systems have been, both in their regulations and in the practical effects of them, widely dis- tinguished from each other. III. The amoimt of the allowances to the parochial poor in Scotland exhibits another and striking peculiarity in the system. In all cases remarkably moderate, it varies according to the circumstances and situation of the parties who are to be assisted. The principle on which the amount of allowances to paupers is fixed is, that, except in very rare Instances of total and absolute destitution, the aUment to be provided by the parish is not to be such as would render the pauper independent of all other resources ; — that, in the general cases, poor per- sons are not so entirely destitute as not to be capable of procuring a part of their sustenance by their own labour, or by the assistance of relatives, or the benevolence of neighbours and others ; — and that it is only what may be necessary for their support, in addition to these separate means, that the parish ought to supply. This principle is distinctly acknowledged in the statutes. Accordingly, as already re- marked, although the act 1579 contains no provision for supplying work to unemployed labourers, yet it declares that the impotent poor, who were, in terms of the statute, to be re- lieved, should be made to work for a part of their allowances, at such labour as they are able for. In the same manner, the amount of their claims on relations, or the sums which they receive from the benevolence of others, are taken into account in ascertaining the rate of ali- ment which the parish must afford. From such an arrangement as this, many and great benefits result. The poor are led to be industrious and provident ; their relatives and neighbours are encouraged to assist them ; a spirit of independence is cherished ; an unwillingness arises to come on the parish for the pittance which It yields ; the burden to the Industrious part of the community of the ordi- nary poor is lessened ; a compulsory assessment is avoided ; and the church collections prove in general sufficient to provide the necessary ftmd. The report by the General Assembly before referred to contains the following remarks on that part of the subject now under consideration : — " The Scotch have uniformly proceeded on the principle that every individual is bound to provide for himself by his own labour as long as he Is able to do so ; and that his parish is only bound to make up that portion of the necessaries of life which he cannot earn or obtain by other lawful means. Even in cases of extreme poverty the relations and neighbours of the paupers have a pride in providing for their necessities, either In Avhole or in part. This circumstance will account for the small number of paupers in some very populous parishes, and serves, at the same time, to explain a fact which is obvious in so many returns in the country districts, that the sums given to the paupers appear to be so dlsproportioned to what their real necessities require. A small sum fiven to aid their other resources affords them the rehef which is necessary ; and it would be oth against the true interests and the moral habits of the people if a more ample provision were made for them by their parishes." IV. The system which has now been generally described is, in each of the country parishes, placed under the superintendence and administration of the kirk-sesslon and land- holders or heritors of the parish. In the towns the jurisdiction In these matters belongs to the magistrates, — but generally, if not uniformly, they devolve the management on the klrk- sessions within their boimds. The kirk-session is an ecclesiastical court, having privative jurisdiction within the parish to which it belongs. It consists of the minister or ministers, and of a body of ordained office-bearers of the chiurch, denominated elders, who generally consist of some of the most respectable residenters ^vithln the parish. The number of elders is not limited, and depends on the size and population of the parish, and other circumstances ; but it seldom exceeds ten or twelve, and rarely amounts to so many. In every kirk-sesslon there must be not fewer than two elders, as it requires two, along with the minister, to form a quorum of the session. When a vacancy occurs, the place is generally filled up by a new election made by the kirk- sesslon. Deacons may also be appomted, Avhose special duty it will be to superintend the management of the poor. But this appointment seldom takes place, and the whole charge has, in the parishes of Scotland, with very few exceptions, been committed to the elders and SUPPLEMENT. Ixxiii minister. The elders act gratuitously. They hold their appointment for life, unless when particular circumstances lead to the resignation or removal of any of them ; and thus they are continued in office -when their experience, and particularly the knowledge which they have gained of the situation and wants of the poor of the parish, fit them for being of essen- tial service. It has been already mentioned, that, to the kirk-session the heritors are joined in the jurisdiction created by statute for the management of the poor. The only general question which ever occurred on this subject was set at rest by a judgment of the Court of Session in 1751, which declared, " that the heritors have a joint right and power with the kirk-session, in the administration, management, and distribution of all and every of the funds belonging to the poor of the parish, as well collections as sums mortified for the use of the poor, and stocked out upon interest, and have a right to be present, and join with the session in their administration, distribution, and employment of such sums ; without prejudice to the kirk- session to proceed in their ordinary acts of administration and application of their collections to the ordinary and incidental charities, though the heritors be not present nor attend." In practice, the " ordinary acts of administration," referred to in the above-recited judg- ment, are almost uniformly left to the management of the kirk-session, without interference on the part of the heritors. In a few cases of populous parishes a committee of heritors is annually appointed to act with the session in the ordinary management of the poor ; and, in one or two recent instances, the kirk-session has allowed the whole management to be de- volved on the committee of heritors. The kirk-session and heritors act as a Parliamentary Board, and as a court having legal jurisdiction in the several matters connected with the affairs of the poor which are committed to them ; none of the ordinary civil courts can interfere with them, in the first instance, in imposing an assessment, or fixing its amount ; in placing paupers on the parish roll ; or in determining the rate of aliment ; and it has been finally decided that, in these and other matters, an appeal from their judgments cannot be taken to any of the inferior civil courts, but must be carried at once to the Court of Session. There is, however, one question connected with the business of the poor, which stands in a peculiar situation, and with regard to which the jurisdiction of the judge ordinary of the bounds may be, and indeed, is generally, resorted to in the first instance — namely, the in- vestigation whether a pauper has acquired a settlement in a particular parish. Tlus question, as will readily occur, generally arises between two or more parishes, and is a point which more nearly concerns the parishes than the pauper ; for, to him, it must, in the ordinary case, be a matter of indifference by what parish he is to be supported. In the adjust- ment, then, of this dispute, the parishes implicated are i\\Q parties contending Avith one another, and, consequently, they cannot act a's judges. tUI such questions, therefore, may originate either before the inferior court of the district, or before the Court of Session ; and it is evi- dent that the parochial court cannot be peiTnltted of its own authority to impose the burden on another parish, and thus to liberate itself. One striking effect of the arrangement which vests jurisdiction as to the matters above mentioned in the heritors and kirk-session is, that it diminishes litigation greatly, or rather tends to suppress it almost entirely, in all that class of cases which are disposed of by the kirk-sessions, with or without the co-operation of the heritors. In Scotland, law-suits about the poor are most frequently confined to questions of settlement, conducted, as has been stated, before the ordinary civil law courts. Owing to the erratic, irregular, and unsettled habits of many of those who become applicants for parochial assistance, such questions are unavoidable, because the facts on which their decision depends are not always easily disco- vered. But, even in these, tlie amount of litigation has not been considerable ; and the common questions which occur before the kirk-sessions, when there is no dispute about the parish of settlement, viz., M'hether the applicant be entitled to relief, and what the amount of the allowance ought to be, are, in the general case, decided finally within the walls of the session-house. It was remarked with justice, in a case of this description which came before the Court of Session in 1772, "That the kirk-session is best acquainted with the circum- stances of those who reside in their parish ; they know best whether or not those who apply for the benefit of the public charity be proper objects of it, and what is necessary to supply their wants." The Court of Session, judging as a court of appeal, acts on these principles, and discourages all such litigation. And, as it has been already stated that the members of the kirk-session do their duty gratuitously, it must be obvious that the management of the poor, in parishes not assessed, not only leads to no litigation, but is conducted without any ex- pense, beyond the very trifling charge of a small annual payment to the session-clerk or treasurer. In particulars stiU more important than these now discussed, the jurisdiction of the kirk- session and heritors is well fitted for accomplishing the purposes which it is intended to serve. When the question arises, whether an assessment must be imposed, and, if so, what its amount ought to be, who can be so well qualified to judge of these matters as those who have the greatest interest in the decision, and are best acquainted with the facts and circumstances on which it ought to depend ? The meetings of the joint body are regularly held, when neces- sary, once in tlie year at least, when the assessment is laid on or refused, modified or with- drawn, according to circumstances, and when the rules prescribed by statute are strictly obeyed. In the ordinary business of determining whether a particular individual shall be placed on the roll of paupers, and what, in such a case, shall be the amount of the termly allowances, k Ixxiv SUPPLEMENT. none can be so competent judges as the members of the kirk-session, intimately informed, as the greater part of them must be, with every particular concerning the claimant, and his re- lations and friends. In the also common affair of yielding occasional and temporary assist- ance to those whose names do not stand on the roll, the kirk-session, or some of them, have access to information wliich no other public body could possess, and as to which they can scarcely be misled. If, in individual instances, some members may be partial, there are others unconnected to countenict and control them ; and the duty, desire, and interest of the whole, must be to admit proper j)artie8, and to exclude the undeserving. The two great objects to be obtained are, to enforce a strict observance of the rules of law, as to the persons entitled to parocliial relief, and, on the other hand, to increase and encourage the weekly collections. None can be so well fitted to accomplish both and each of these objects as the members of the kirk-session of the parish. EDINBURGH : PRINTED BY MtTERAY & GIBB, FOR HER majesty's STATIONERY OFFICE. POOR LAW INQUIRY (SCOTLAND.) APPENDIX, PART L CONTAINING MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN AT EDINBUEGH, PAISLEY, GLASGOW, AYR, AND GEEENOCK, KILMARNOCK ^rcgcntcl) to 6otJ ?^ou0es of i^arUament bg ©ommant) of ^n ittajcstg. EDINBURGH : PRINTED BY MURRAY AND GIBB, GEORGE STREET, FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. 1844. CONTENTS. EDINBURGH, GLASGOW, GREENOCK, PAISLEY, Page 1 303 489 561 GLASGOW [Second ExaminatiM,'] 641 AYR, 690 KILMARNOCK, 705 EDINBURGH [Second Examination,'] 719 LIST OF WITNESSES. Edinburgh — George Small, Robert Bowie, Archibald Campbell, WiUiam Maxwell Little, Dr John Smith, John Maclcay, Peter dimming, - Edward Thomson, William Gray, George TurnbuU, John Adams, Bobert Miller, Hart Anderson, - Andrew Jack, David Kidpath, John Gray, Rev. Dr Gordon, - John Hunter, Dr Pitcairn, Rev. John Hunter, Donald M'Donald, David Doud, William Tait, John Smith, Rev. James Buchanan, Dr W. P. Alison, Rev. John Bruce, Eev. Thomas Guthrie, Dr R. Kaye Greville, Capt. James Thompson, - John Graham, Jonathan Blaidworth, Right Rev. Bishop Gillis, Rev. Thomas M'Crie, Rev. Thomas Clark, John Wigham, Rev. Dr Brown, - Mr Campbell, Dr Peacock, Dr Handyside, William Whyte, - George Wilson, Edward Chapman, Dr Abercrombie, - Alexander Ziegler, Rev. Dr Muir, Thomas Miller, - William Muir, William Chambers, Mr Eraser, Alexander Macaulay, Mr Drummond, John Wright, J. Stuart, Alexander Orrock, George Forbes, John Maitland, Robert Henderson, William Johnston, Mr Johnston, Hugh Miller, Sir William Drysdale, Rev. Dr William Steven, Alfred J. List, Rev. Dr Grant, James Marshall, - Alexander Kyle, - William Whitehead, John Craig, Thomas Scotland, William Gillespie, Alexander Allan, - James Slater, Mr Aitken, Daniel Goodall, Archibald Thomson, Rev. John Sym, - James Reoch, Dr Thomas Chalmers, Page Edinburgh — 1 Alexander Dunlop, 5 Mr Girdwood, 9 William Thomson, 10 William Paul, 13 David Monypenny, 14 John Clark, 19 22 Glasgow — 26 Peter Hill, 27 Henry Dunlop, 30 Rev. R. B. Smith, 30 James Stirling, 34 Robert Ross, 3.1 John Miller, 37 Robert Findlay, - 39, 300 Captain Miller, 46 William Gibson, 51, 299 John Cassells, - - 52 Dr Fleming, 54 Archibald Newall, S8 John Maclaren, 61 Campbell Nasmyth, 65 Mr Gilchrist, 66 Rev. Alexander Turner, - 70 William Davie, 73 Rev. Dr Leishman, 84 Rev. Dr Brown, - 87 George Heggie, 94 Alexander Watt, - 101 Archibald Lawson, 104 Rev. Dr Black, - 110 James Scott, 111 William Buchanan, 116 Rev. Dr Willis, - 116 Rev. Mr Caie, 121 O. Macintosh, 128 Robert Kettle, 129 Charles R. Baird, 130 W. M. Caldwell, - 133 Right Rev. Bishop Murdoch, 140 John Leadbetter, - 140 Robert Watson, - 142 David Hope, 143 William Robertson, 147 Archibald Maclellan, 148 M. M. Pattison, - 154 David Stow, 156 Rev. Dr Ralph Wardlaw, 161 William Thomson, 163 Dr Perry, 163 John Henderson, - 171 Peter Ferguson, - 174 Donald Macintyre, 184 Rev. Dr John Forbes, - 187 Hugh Cogan, 190 William Brown, - 196 Very Rev. Principal M'Farlan, 199 Rev. Dr John Smyth, 200 Dr James Watson, 209 William Church, - 2U9 Gavin Paisley, 213 Dr John M'Farlane, 215, 293 William Hector, - 218 David Maclure, 219 James Sommerviile, 225 DrKerr, - 228 Alexander Pollock, 229 William Brebner, 230 Archibald Alison, 233 Robert Strang, 234 Dr William Hutcheson, - 230 James Kerr, 243 246 Greenook^ 250 Dougall MacEwen, 252 John Black, 258 John Ker, 203 John Munro, 266 Thomas Hart, 280 284 2«ft 29-2 297 301 303 30U 311 313 31B 319 320 321,462 333 335 338 340 343 347 360 352 354 357 359 301 364 369 370 374 378 380 383 385 386 387 395 396 399 408 410 411 412 417 419 424 427 429 433 435 437 440 442 444 446 448 451 453 454 454 456 458 459 400 460 465 469 478 479 483 4K9 496 504 507 509 IV Greenock — John Malcom, Walter Baine, jun., Right Rev. Dr Scott, John Ilcrcus, Dr AuUl, - Robert Steele, Robert Hutchinson, Mr Gray, William Martin, - Dr Hugh Thomson, Rev. James Stark, John Denniston, - AJam Fairrie, Thomas Hart, Rev. Mr Fairbairn, William Thomson, Rev. Robert AVilsou, Alexander Cairns, Thomas Fairrie, - Paisley— Rev. Dr Burns, Rev. John Macnaughton, William Mollis, - James S. Brown, - Daniel M'Kinlay, - Walter M'Farlane, Archibald Hodge, Provost Henderson, Walter Millar, Rev. Mr Brewster, Colonel Mure, Bailie Murray, James M'Stravich, James Holmes, Robert Robertson, Dr Brown, David Craig, Robert Kirkland, - Ale.xander Campbell, Rev. John Bremner, Alexander Boreland, John Auld, John Macdonald, - Walter Miller, William Torbet, Glasgow. — [Second Examination']- — Dr Norman Macleod, William Barr, Rev. Lewis Rose, - Chai'les Baird, William Fleming, Peter Hill, Dr James Campbell, Archibald Newall, Mr Maclaren, Mr Henderson, James Miller, Dr William Hutchcson, - Andrew Millar, Robert Ross, Rev. Archibald Baird, J. W. Black, AVE- Stephcn Rowan, - William Lennox, - Hugh Miller, Rev. Dr Auld, Rev. Alexander Cuthill, Rev. Robert Renwick, Page £13 514 522 524 526 528 531 534 536 538 542 545 550 553 553 554 555 556 557 56 1 56 .J 568 571 579 582 582 589 502 sun 610 612 C17 618 621 625 626 627 629 635 636 639 639 640 641 641 653 055 057 662 663 663 667 667 669 670 672 675 683 683 688 690 691 692 694 694 695 Atr — Rev. William Thomson, Hugh Cowan, David Cowan, C. F. Sloan, Dr James Syme, - Dr George Mitchell, Thomas Gemmill, Rev. James Stevenson, John Gemmell, John Muir, Thomas Maclellan, J. Brydone, Alexander Mackay, Alexander Wyse, - William Watson, - William Lennox, - Kilmarnock — James Anderson, - Alexander Ilarkness, Alexander Findlay, Rev. David Strong, John Dickie, Charles Caldwell, - Alexander Hood, - Rev. Mr Maclndoe, William Bunton, - Dr Whitelaw, Charles Dalrymple Gairdner, Rev. David Arthur, Rev. James Porteous, William Hood, Hugh Wilson, Edinburgh. — [Second Examinatiori]- Rev. Thomas Barclay, Rev. Peter Petrie, Rev. Zachary M. Hamilton, Rev. C. M'Kenzie, Rev. William Logie, Donald Lindsay, - Rev. Alexander Cameron, Rev. D. Macrae, Rev. Alexander Russell, John Bowie, Robert Stevenson, Sir Charles Gordon, Rev. William Malcolm, - Rev. Peter Learmonth, Rev. James Anderson, Rev. Creorge Ritchie, Rev. William Macrae, Rev. James Pearson, Rev. John M'Kinnon, Rev. Coliu M'Donald, Rev. Finlay Macrae, Rev. John Finlayson, Rev. Robert Finlayson, - Rev. Roderick M'Leod, - Rev. Adam Rettie, Rev. Duncan Clerk, Rev. William Watson, Rev. Walter Weir, Rev. John Swanson, Rev. Donald MacCalman, - Robert Henderson, John Gordon, Charles Sheriff, Rev. Adam White, Rev. Andrew Smith, John Hill Burton, Page 695 695 696 697 698 698 699 700 700 701 702 703 703 704 704 704 705 706 7UG 709 710 710 711 711 713 714 715 716 716 717 718 719 722 723 725 727 728 731 732 733 735 739 739 741 743 745 747 748 751 753 754 757 759 761 763 765 767 769 771 773 776 777 779 782 784 788 790 [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Thursday, 2d March 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Mr George Small, Treasurer of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse, Examined : — • 1. You are treasurer of the Edinbvu-gh Charity Workhouse ? — I am. 2. Although you are designated treasurer, you also act as clerk ? — I do ; I keep the mi- nutes, conduct correspondence, attend aU the meetings of managers, and also of the commit- tees ; I attend also when relief is given. 3. How long have you been in that situation ? — -About three and a half years. 4. Is there any local act for the management of the poor in Edinbiu-gh ? — There are very old Acts of Parliament ; but there is no law specially regulating Edinburgh different from the common law of Scotland. 5. ^Vhat is the number of the Board of Managers ? — About 108 in the Board of General Managers, but of these there are twenty-one Ordinary Managers. The General jNIanagers meet once every three months. The affairs of the workhouse are generally conducted by the twenty-one Ordinary Managers. 6. How are those twenty-one chosen ? — They are chosen by the General Managers once a year. 7. How Is the General Board constituted ? — They are constituted from various bodies : eighteen from the Town Council ; two. elders from every Kirk-Session ; eighteen from the GuUdry ; fourteen from the fourteen Incoi-porations ; five from the Lords of Session ; one from the Barons of Exchequer ; sLx from the Faculty of Advocates ; four from the Society of Writers to the Signet ; three from the J^piscoj^al Clergy ; two from the College of Phy- sicians ; one from the College of Edinburgh ; two from the Convenery ; one from the So- ciety of Barbers ; and one from the Society of Candlemakers. Only, some of them don't send members. The Episcopal Clergy have not sent any for many years past : they were afraid of being involved in the debt of the Charity Workhouse, and did not send in conse- quence. But the blue book before you gives the whole constitution. [The following printed documents were then put in : — 1. Rules and Regulations for the " Edinbiu-gh Charity Workhouse ; " giving an account of the General Managers, and the Ordinary Managers, and of the Rules of the Worldiouse. 2. Abstract of Income and Ex- penditure, from 1st Jidy 1839 to Ist July 1840. 3. Similar Abstract, from 1st July 1840 to 1st July 1841. 4. Similar Abstract, from 1st July 1841 to 1st July 1842. 5. List of the Out-pensioners of the Charity Workljouse.] 8. To the best of your belief, are these accounts correctly stated ? — ^Thcy are. 9. I see at page 17 of the Abstract, from 1st July 1841 to 1st July 1842, a statement that there is a debt owing by the Charity Workhouse, amounting to 16,794/. How was that debt contracted ? — There was no debt contracted for a great many years ; but in the celebrated year of the cholera, the institution got into debt by the extraordinary expenses. They applied to the then Town Council, year after year, when they found they were getting into debt, for an additional assessment to defray the extraordinary expenses as they occurred ; but the ToAvn Covmcil declined giving more than 6 per cent. ; and, in consequence, the debt had accumulated till it reached the amount stated. We lately paid off 2000/. of the debt which appears here. 10. Do you mean to say that the whole 16,000/. debt has been incurred since the cholera ? — ^AU previous to the year of the cholera. There has been none since my time. We have regularly saved about 1000/. a year since I came on. 11. Do you mean to state that the cholera was the cause of the debt ? — They had been getting short of ftinds ; there was much distress in the town, and fever was prevailing. £ Examinations. Mr George Small. 2 March 1843. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAItEN BEFORE THE Kxaminatiuus. Mr George Small. 2 March 1843. 12. Do you mean that the debt arose from the diminution of the funds, or from the increase of the expenses ? — From the increase of expenses. 13. I prestune the account of receipt, on page 2 (of the Abstract for 1841-42), contains the whole funds? — It does. Your Lordship wiU see, on page 4, the money in the bank and the goods upon hand. You wiU find, on page 6, the churcli collections and tlie amount of assessment. Every source of revenue is comprehended in that book before you. 14. I see, m tlie account of assessment, some arrears stated from 1841 to 1842. Has the rate been the same each year? — Always the same. 15. How much ? — Six per cent. 16. Upon what description of property? — House property; houses and shops. 17. Heritable property you mean? — Property occupied within the city of Edinburgh; only house property. 18. By what authority is that assessment imposed? — By the authority of the Town Council. There is an Act of Parliament, authorizing them to assess to any amount required for the poor ; and they appoint stentmasters, constituted under the Act of Parliament, to assess. The stentmasters must be burgesses of the city. 19. What act is that? — I cannot really tell you, my Lord. Tlie act gives them power to assess for the poor to any extent they may deem necessary. 20. You have nothing to do ■with the levying of the assessment ? — -Nothing. It is the Town Council that do that. We send in a prospective view of the probable expense of the following year, and a detail of the previous year's expenditure, and we ask for a certain sum to cover that expense, according to the rate of the price of provisions. They very often refuse to give more than six per cent., when we show that six and a-half is required to cover the expense. 21. Do you mean to say you would, in any case, give a larger allowance if you had a larger assessment ? — No doubt there would be an increase. 22. You are limited in the extent of allowance to a degree less than you think proper ? — There are certain rides by which the managers are guided very much in giving relief to the poor. They are not inclmed to increase that veiy much ; but, in cases of emergency, they would be inclined to give relief to persons in destitute circumstances, to whom they would not regularly order it ; for instance, we sometimes give cgals to the poor, and clothing, and otherwise assist them, by a small donation, or by provisions, in a credit on a shop — given out daily to prevent abuse. 23. Do you mean that you would relieve a greater number of people, or increase the allow- ance to those who are already on the roU, if you had a larger assessment ? — It is rather a trying question that. For it depends so much on the nature of the times ; and the managers are vciy much influenced by the feeling of the case that comes before them. If there is dis- tress in the town at the time, then they must, at the same time, weigh the funds in hand, to see what is to be done with them. But there are certainly rules, or at least an miderstand- ing, what different cases are to get under special circumstances. 24. You aUude to outdoor relief ? — Oh, of course, outdoor relief. With respect to indoor relief, we have considerably increased the diet table within the last twelve months. Tlsis was done on tlie Surgeon's Report, in which the general health of the house is described, and the diet table at the time is stated, as well as what he woidd recommend as an increase to the allowance. [A copy of the Surgeon's Report was ordered.] 25. Are you concerned in the distribution of the money to the poor ? — Yes. 2G. Or is it the inspector ? — The money goes all through my hands. The inspector goes through the town, on the apjilication of a pauper by schedule of petition. He inquires into the real necessity of the case — what claim the applicant has. He ascertains, for the informa- tion of the managers, what state the parties are in, and whether they have a claim for aliment at all on the city. The board sits every Thursday to give temporaiy relief, or examine new cases alternately. To-day, for instance, they examine new cases. A report is given in by the inspector on each case, stating the number of the family, the state of their health, and employment ; whether the family are children under age, or in employment. 27. It is all stated in the rides and regulations ? — It is so. The committee judge from that, whether aid shoidd be given, and whether it should be permanent or temporary. 28. Are the regulations strictly adhered to ? — They are. 29. Can you give the Commissioners any general information with respect to the rates of allowance to outdoor paupers ? — I have brought with me books, in whicli are stated all the allowances given to different families ; and there is this pension list, showing what we give to the pensioners. We have, besides, what we call temporary aid. There are also, in tliis book, at the end, the children that are boarded out (besides the out-pensioners) — sent to nurse — with the sums that are paid for them. Observe, we doJi't pay by the month, but by the half quarter — six weeks. It is necessary to observe that, as most other paiishcs pay by the month. 30. Are the outdoor poor relieved fiiUy in money, or occasionally in provisions ? — Occa- sionally in provisions. 31. Are the managers in the habit of affording medical relief? — No. It is not general to afford medical relief for outdoor paupers. . Occasionally I might send the surgeon to inquire into their situation, and prescribe for them ; but this is not a general rule. 32. Have you regular allowances for the out-pensioners ?— Yes ; but each case is consi- dered on its own merits. The pensioners must pay eveiy thing out of their pension, in general. 33. You never furnish clothes or coals ? — Occasionally, when there are large families, we furnish clothing according to the state of distress in the family ; but this is not a general POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. & rule. It is rather a deviation from the rule to give clothes ; but yet It is often done in pecu- Eiauiiuatiom. liar cases. 34. Do you make a legal allowance to paupers who have a claim to relief here, but reside ^o Sr*".'^^*?^*!"' elsewliere r — les, we do. 35. Do you ever pay any apprentice fees for poor chililren ? — The children boarded in what we call the Children's Hospital, are regularly apprenticed when they leave the insti- tution. 3(5. At the expense of the institution ? — At the expense of the institution. They get clothing ; and if they serve their time out, with good character, they get half a guinea and a suit of clothes. A servant going out to a family, or an apprentice bound out, if they beliave well, get that allowance. 37. Can you inform the Commissioners with respect to the number of paupers that sub- sist entirely on the parochial allowance, vvdthout any aid from other resources ? — I believe there are very few who have not some other provision than what they get from the charity workhouse. 38. Have the numbers upon your poor's roll, as well as the occasional poor, increased of late years ? — Yes ; and, in particular, this last year they increased a good deal. Want of employment was, I believe, the cause. , 39. You don't give any relief to the unemployed ? — No, we do not. When persons are reduced by sickness, we give occasional relief; but not in cases where they are able-bodied. 40. Have you any knowledge yourself, or does it fall to the inspector, to see the mode of life of the applicants ? — It falls to the inspector. I occasionally see it ; but it is not my duty. 41. Will you state what is the usual allowance, say, for a widow with one child? — She would get about 6s. in the half quarter. 42. With two ?— 7s. 6d. 43. With three ?— About 10s. 44. With five ? — About 15s. With six, 18s. to 21s. ; but rarely the latter. 45. How much is the highest ? — 18s. has been given for six weeks to a widow with six children. The largest allowance for a widow and six chUth-en would be 3s. a week — what- ever be the number of the children. In case of distress, besides that, they get temporar}- relief. Often we have occasion to give donations and temporary assistance — provisions. This is very commonly done. When we find them in temporary distress, we give them an allowance. They come to the Committee and state their case, and get some relief — provi- sions — for a time. 46. But the regular allowance is not higher than I state — 3s. a week ? — ^Yes. 47. What is the general allowance to an aged person who possesses no other means of assistance ? For a single individual ? First for a single individual, and secondly a married couple ? — They seldom exceed 6s. to any individual case. 48. And for a married couple you give an allowance of 2s. a week, or what ? — Never more than 7s. 6d. for a married couple for six weeks, imless they are a couple unable to do any thing. In the case of their being bed-ridden. 49. AA'ould you give them more if they were bed-ridden ? — Yes. I would also state that, when they find the allowance not sufficient, upon application, they are offered the house. If they prefer indoor relief they are admitted. If they say the allowance is not sufficient for their support out of doors, then they are offered the house uniformly. 50. What is the scale of allowance for orphan children ? — We give an allowance of 12s. 6d. in six weeks ; 2s. a week for each child boarded out. The information on this wUl all be found at the end of the list of out-pensioners. 51. You stated that if your assessments were larger, you would give relief to a greater number ? — It is a difficulty for me, in my situation, to answer that, because I might expose myself to objection by tlie managers. They might say I had no right to say that. 52. What distinction is there made betwixt the claims of those wlio have a settlement and those who have not a settlement in your parish, as to relief? — If they are in poverty and distress in the parish, we must relieve them in the meantime, just as we do our owa, tiU we find their parish. 53. And that is your practice ? — That is our practice. 54. What woidd be done with the Irish poor, who have no parochial residence in Scot- land ? — -We are obliged to support tliem here. The difficulty is to get them away. There is nothing so difficult as to deal with the Irish poor. 55. Then there is no difference in obtaining relief, whether sought by one who had a settlement, or by one who had not ? You relieve both equally ? — We relieve them in dis- tress ; but coiJd not continue that relief. 56. And do you relieve many persons who are not in distress ? — Not unless we are satis- fied of their poverty. 57. I don't understand your distinction betwixt giving relief to those who have a settle- ment, and those who, without a settlement, are in distress ? — The same rule would govern us in relieving those who have not a settlement here, as with regard to our own poor, if they applied and sought our aid. We relieve, in the meantime, till we find the parish they belong to. 58. Wlien you find the parish they belong to, what do you do ? — We apply to the parish ; and suppose they refiise relief, and say the pauper does not belong to them, we continue to relieve him tUl the question is decided. Cases of that kind sometimes occur, wliich last for a couple of years. 59. Then you go on relieving for a couple of years ? — We can't help it. We must give relief. MINUTES OF E^T[DENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Ezaniinations. Mr Georgo Small. 2 AUrcli liI4:i. 60. But you can recover it ? — O yes ; we recover afterwards. I lately recovered 100^., outlaid for one pauper. 61. I understand, a person who has no settlement can get relief as easily as one who has a settlement at first ?— Decidedly. Besides this, and the aged poor in the woi'khouse, we have, in the Cliildren's Hospital, 260 children, hred up and educated there. The girls are sent out for service, and the hoys apprenticed. In order to explain the discx'epancy betwixt the two, it is qiute necessary to say, that if a person comes who has e\'idently not the least claim, but who, it is evident, belongs to a neighbouring parish, — St Cuthbert's, South Leith, or Canongate, for instance, — we say, you don't belong to this jjarish ; you must go to them and get a schedule. He could oblige us, even in that case, to sujjport him, mitil the claim on the other parish is established. 62. How could he obhge you ? — He could go to the Sheriff, if he live in the parish. 63. Suppose you don't consider him as belonging to you ?— \^^l_V) it causes a good deal of dispute betwixt the paiishes ; but in the meantime, the pauper must be supported. 64. And they are supported ? — They are supported. 65. Have you any idea of the proportion of paupers, whether indoor or outdoor, who are bom in the city of Edinburgh, to those who are born in other parishes ? — ^I coidd not dis- tinctly say. I coidd make up a statement as to that. You wiU see it very much detailed in the hst of out-jicnsioncrs ; and when you exaniine Mr Bowie, ho will detail all about the indoor poor. 66. Have you any reason to believe that there is any influx of persons into Edinbui^h, from the motive of getting a claim by thrco years' residence ? — .Oh, certainly. It is a thing very grievous to us. Farm servants, when they get low and unfit for wor'k, are thrown of^ and uniforndy come into the large towns, where at length they acquire a residence, 67. That consists with your own knowledge ? — It consists with my own knowledge. They come to the towns, and acquire some residence by outdoor work, till they fall back alto- gether, and come on the parish. And the influx from Ireland is dreadftil. 68. Do you suppose those people, in genci-al, come really and bona fide to obtain work, or from the motive of getting a settlement ? — I believe they are first compeUod to leave the place of their residence from necessity ; and then they faU worse and worse, tUl they at last come on the parish. 69. You mean the necessity that they cannot work ? — They get more frail and incapable of work. They remain in their settlement in the coimtry tUl they are worn out, and then come to Edinburgh to get some sort of subsistence, that enables them to spin out tWee years, 80 that they acquire' a residence. 70. Do you state that they come here for relief, or in the prospect of work ?— -They come very much with the view that three years' residence would enable them to acquire a settle- ment ; for the moment the three years are out, they are upon us instantly. 71. But woidd not these persons have a claim on their own parish at the end of tliree years ? — They were not so much worn out that their j)arish would take them on. You are not bound to support the people who arc able to work. They are j)robably able to do as much as wiU support them for a time. But they cannot get fuUy employed. They come to a place where they are more likely to get emjjloyment, suflScient to support them for a time at least. 72. You mean they would get pai-tial work in Edinburgh, but stUl insufficient for their sustenance ? — They could not get sufficient. AVhen a fanner finds a man cannot work his pair of horses, he at once sends him about his busincBS, and the town. 73. Could you give us a list of any persons who are upon the roU, of that description ? — • We could make out such a list, 74. You would jirobably be able to pick it out of this list ? — In the course of a day or two. If you examine the insi)ector, he is able to tell much more about it than I. 75. Do you conceive their coming to Edinburgh is on account of their gaining partial employment more casUy, or is it for the puipose of obtaining a settlement in Edinburgh ? — "VVliy, I dare say, the first motive is to get employment. I believe the Scotch, generally, don't immediately have an eye to the workhouse, or parochial relief. They spin out their time as long as they possibly can ; but when they get frail and unable for work, they come on the parish. 76. Then the motive of their coming is not to gain a settlement, but to obtain partial work ? — Yes ; but I limit that to Scotland. 77. But we are speaking about Scotland? — But the Irish come hero, in order to get a eettlement— different from the Scotch altogether. man goes mto LETTER from Mr Small, . TVeaawrer of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse. Sir, 11, Regext Tekeace, Edinburgh, 3d March 1843. In the course of my examination before the Poor Law Commissioners yesterday, some questions were asked to which I felt diflficidty in answering, considering that the Com- missioners would obtain the infonnation better from some of the managers, who would feel no delicacy in giving their opinion. This applies to amount of the assessment, and the difficulty which the managers have every year to obtain a better supply for the relief of the POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 5 poor, and also for house accommodation,— the deficiency, in this latter object, rendering it Exainiiiii,ti<.ii!>. impossible to obtain a proper classification of the inmates in the workhouse, and in the — — ; Children's Hospital, both of which institutions are over-crowded, and numbers are main- J" ^i^^.J^ '^84;} ' tained outdoors that ouglit to be taken into the house ; and this, in particular, regards the children, whose education and training for the active duties of life is neglected ; and, worse than this, these childi-on, left with dissolute reokless parents and relatives, arc trained to be pests to society. In the large house, there are no means of classification, nor separation of the sexes. Consequently, none can be admitted between the ages of puberty and extreme old age. So that young persons, bred in the house, if by any accident thrown out of employment, having either no relatives, or such as would lead them into vice, are placed in a situation truly pitiable : this is almost of daily occurrence, and ought to have a remedy. In regard to the debt and money matters relating to the workhouse niqnagomcnt, you would do well to consult Mr AVilliam Campbell, W.S., who, though not a inanager at present, had been till lately the oldest and best informed in the management. I take leave to say, that the Commissioners would do well to consider the working of the English Poor Law in its bearing on Scotland, Many poor families are sent to Scotland merely because they have made a declaration, that, to the hefit of their knowledge and belief, the father or mother (if a widow) was born in Scotland, without being able to give any evidence of such birth when examined by the Scotch Parish Officers, and, in sonje in^ stances, being unable to tell in what part of Scotland they were born ; and the consequences to these vmfortunate creatures is most lamentablc,-^tossed from parish to parish, till at last they find their way back to England. Desertion of families by the parents has become as an every-tlay occurrence, and is- often a connivance between the husband and wife to throw the family on the parish. Our inspector wiU speak to this. The influx of paupers from Ireland, and the short period which entitles them to a parish , settlement in Scotland, is felt as a great evil ; and now that there is a provision made for the poor in Ireland, I humbly think that a power should bp giveu to return them to their own country. I hope you will pardon the liberty I have taken in these few remarks, which you may use your discretion in laying them or not before the Poor Law Commissioners ; they are sugt gested by my experience, not only in my present situation, but fi'om many years' acqiiaiat- , flace with the poor of the city. • I have the honour to be, Sill, Your most obedient humble servant, OBORGE SJNIALL, Wm, Smt/the, Esq., 16, Charlotte Street. Mr Robert Bowie, House-Governor of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse, Examined : — • 78. You are chaplain and governor of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse ? — ^The same. 79. How long have you held that situation? — Seventeen years eaid eight montlis — eighteen years come June. 80. What is the average number of jKsrsons lodged in the Charitjf Workhouse ? — They average nearly, in the large house, 420, and in the other two houses, about 300. There are upwards of 100, including servants, in Bedlam, and about 2 GO in the Children's IIos])ital. 81. Mention the number of males and females? — We have in the house 115 males, and 804 females. One died this morning, so that the number is within 420 ajiogether, exclu- sive of children. The children have been removed from the former site down to the old Orjihan Hospital, and we have since been able to take in a larger number. On the 1st of July we had 801 names in the list in the annual report, including old people and lunatics, and the children in the hospital, of whom there are about 250 or 260. In the year ending June 1838, there were in the house, 419 ; iiuthe Children's Hospital, 223 ; and in Bedlam, 98 ; making in aU, 740. In the year ending June 1839, there were in the. house, 435 ; in the Children's Hospital, 225; and in Bedlam, 110; in all, 770. In June 1840, there were in the house, 417 ; in the Children's Hospital, 231 ; in Bedlam, 108 ; in all, 750. In June 1841, there were in the house, 406; in the Children's Hospital, 257; in Bedlam, 112; in all, 775. And in June 1842, there were in the house, 418 ; in the Children's Hospital, 217 ; and in Bedlam, 112; in all, 801. Of the 217 in hospital, there are 14 or 16 servants; and in Bedlam there are 14 keejiers and servants. 82. This account at pages 15 and 16 of the Abstract of Income and Expense, from July 1841 to July 1842 — have you reason to believe it coiTCct ?--Yes, I have every reason to be- lieve it correct. 83. Ai-e the inmates of the hospital chiefly bom In Edinburgh, or people entitled to pa. rochial relief by law ? — They are chiefly born within the county of Edinburgh, and always entitled, by three years' residence, to relief before they are admitted. There arc instances of childi-en left by their parents, deserted, who have no claun on the city, but for whom the city is obliged to provide, as they have nowhere else to go. 84. Have you any inmates from distant parishes — any from England or Ireland ? — There Mr Eobeit Bowie. 9 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Eiauiinatiuns. M r RoI>crt Rowic. -2 Marrh I84:(. may be more tlian one-tlilrd of them. I can give you the numbers. On JiJy 1, 1842, there were 370 belonfjing to all the counties of Scotland. Of these, belonged to Edinburgh alone, 210, including tiie county, the greater part of them belonging to the city and parish ; but 210 were bom within the comity; 160 were bom in different counties of Scotland; making 370 in Scotland altogether. From England, 9; from Ireland, 25; from abroad, 3; and 7 whose places of birth could not rightly be ascertained ; making in all, 414 accounted for. 85. Have you any reason to know that those people, or many of them, come to the city to be relieved, who could not be relieved elsewhere ? — Not any of the old people. I scarcely know any instance that has come under my notice ; but^I know many mstances of cliikb-en deserted by their parents, because they find it more convenient to leave them, to be taken charge of by the house. After the young peoj)le, however, are sent out of the house to business or service, then they are heard of, and frequently give a considerable deal of trouble to those wlio have the management of tiie young people after they are sent out. 8(5. The diet of the inmates is regidated, I suppose, by the order of the managers ? — Yes. We have an internal management conuiiittee wlio regidjite all that under the guidance of the surgeon. The diet has been increased lately within the last two years. The food for dimier has been nearly doubled. 87. Does the surgeon's report contain two different dietaries? — I don't know whether he keeps any detailed books." He gave a note when the change was made, which was acted upon by the managers. . 88. Wlien was that change made ? — We have had changes repeatedly ; but this perma- nent change took place in the beginning of winter 1841. It began on 9th November ex- actly. It increased from 11^ lbs. to 30 lbs. of beef. 89. Are there any changes going on from persons coming in and being tiuned out from particular causes? — We have about 150 admissions annually; the number of inmates is sel- dom below 400 ; and there are seldom more than 420. Some go out without leave ; some are pemiitted to go out to their occupations ; and there is a considerable number of deaths. 90. Is your house fiill now ? — We have not a place for a man, and we are too crowded even with those we have. 91. Is it generally fall? — We should not have above 100 men; we have now 115. It is generally fuU. We seldom get in one who has not to wait till an opening takes place. 92. Are you ever present at the meetings of the Board of ^lauagers ? — It is part of my duty to attend them. I have to be present at the opening, but am seldom so at the discus- sions. I attend when applications are made. 93. Are applications ever made by persons who have a small allowance, to be admitted to the workhouse? — Oh, frequently. 94. »Are those applications often refused on the ground that there is not sufficient room ? — In some cases they must be refiised. There are several men whom we cannot at present admit. 95. Unless the workhouse were on a larger scale, you would not be able to take in addi- tional numbers ? — No. 96. Therefore, if parties complained of the smallness of their allowance, you could not, on a large scale, take them into the workhouse ? — We could not. 97. You were stating the numbers in the workhouse who were bom in the county of Edinburgh ; have you made a statement of those wlio have spent the best part of their lives in the city of Edinburgh ? — I have not made it out. 98. Could you make out a summaiy ? — I coidd. Thus, one bom in Ijanark has been forty-nine yeai"s in Edinburgh ; another, from Inverness, has been forty-one yeivrs ; but it would require a little time to prepare the statement. 99. Perhaps you could give a summary of that ? — I would do it with pleasure. 100. You stated that the diet had been increased lately ? — The dinners were doubled fully. 101. What was the reason of that? — I had repeatedly complained on the subject myself; and we got a set of managers who were perhaps a little more liberal than their predecessors. For the first five years that I was in the house, it was not much inferior to what it is now. During that period we had sixty a year of deaths. During the five following years, in which we had generally about 420 inmates in the house, the deaths averaged eighty-four pet annum. One chief cause of the increase of diet was the cholera. It was found a necessary thing to prevent the introduction of that disease. 102. It has been continued since ? — It was reduced and kept doA\-n to a very low state, especially for dinner, tiU 1841. There might be partial changes, but there was no settled change till November 1841, when it was raised to its present state in which it continues to tiiis day. 103. Have you had occasion to converse with any inmates of your establishment, who have stated that they had come to Edinbm-gh merely to get a settlement ? — No ; I never knew any one that made that statement. 104. Have you> reason to sujipose that persons have come from distant parishes, where they had resided for the most part, with the view of getting a settlement in Edinburgh at a later period of life ? — I don't know that I ever met with one, who mentioned that as the sole or principal motive for coming to Edinburgh. 105. Could you say the motive exists? — I know various instances of Lishmen who have left their wives and deserted their children on the street, tUl the police took them up. These children thoy knew would instantly be taken care of by the charity workhouse. A family of three was thus left, one of w horn died ; and the other two continued, for many years, under the care of the house, and turned out very well. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 7 106. And is that practice increasing ? — I cannot say it is. There are no doubt many j;xaiiiiiiiitious. deserted families and wives. But I cannot say it is increasing. The want of work compels the poor man to wander about. They have nothing to send home to their families, and ^^J uaro" I'm "^" these, in this sort of way, are deserted. 107. You have nothing to do witli the administration of outdoor relief, I believe ? — Nothing. 108. Is it within your knowledge that the nimiber of poor, with claims of relief, are in- , - creasing? — In the cholera year, in 1831, 1832, and 1833, tliere was a much greater increase than since. In the year ending 1832, tlic whole assessment and collections were about yiSO?. ; and there was spent on the outdoor poor altogether, 9050/., being within 1001. of the whole collections, besides about 5001. for clothing. In that year, 5000/. of debt was added ; but, since that time, the regidar income has been able to meet the expenditure. That shows that the increase of poor has not taken place during the last few years. 109. Has the income remained very nearly stationary ? — Very nearly stationary, and the collections have not increased. 110. As you have stated that the accommodation in the workhouse is limited, have you reason to suppose that a distinction is made, in granting admission, betwixt those who have an industrial residence, and those who are born in the parish ? — I don't know. They must be three years before they apply. They may get casual or temporary relief; but it is distress which gives a preference. 111. You don't take people who have not been three yenrs in the parish? — In a case of insanity the police send the person whether he has a claim or not. We have some boarders in bedlam. They are not paupers. Other parishes pay their expenses. 112. Provided there is a three year's residence, the only criterion for admission, or re- jection, would be distress, and not previous length of residence in Edinbiu-gh ? — Entirely the distress. 113. What is the average number of attendance at the Board of Managers ; at the ad- mission board of fourteen ? — There is a meeting to-day ; there is one regularly on Thursday, and three or four managers attend. On the appeal cases ; when cases are reconsidered, sometimes a dozen attend. About six is the average number, when allowances are either diminished or increased. On ordinaiy days, the average number is three or four. I would say four. 1 14. As far as you know, this abstract of income and expenditure is all correctly stated ? — As far as I know. I made an abstract of it myself; and I believe it is perfectly correct in every item. 115. I3o the inmates seem in general contented and satisfied with the way you treat them ? — In general. There are a few exceptions ; but it is not from any ground of com- plaint, but from a discontented disposition. Out of the 420, we have not got a dozen of that description. In general, it is from a diseased mind, rather than from any thing else, that they complain. 116. Do you find a general disposition to remain in the house? — Often there is a re- luctance to go into the house ; but after they are in, there are very few who seek to go out. In the course of a year, we have not above two or three who leave us. There are more among the women. They frequently get an opportunity of going into service. They go out to live with their friends, getting a small out-pension. 117. Has the internal management of the house, so far as regards the comfort of the people, been improved ? — The dietary has been improved. 118. But with regard to other circumstances — cleanliness and clothing? — ^^'^ly, we had the house in a good state, and there is no great alteration in that state. The clothing is fully the same in quality as before. Formerly, it was a drabbish clothing, which was not * ' liked, as it was a mark of distinction. They have now blue, which they like better, as it is less noticeable. 119. What service have you? — We have sei'vice evening and morning, and sermon twice on Sunday. We have a chapel th&t holds 300 or 400. About 200 or 250 are able to attend. We have a number of excellent young ladies that visit the house. 120. If medical assistance be required, you can obtain it immediately? — We have a re- gular visit from the doctor daily, and can send for liim when necessary. I frequently have to send for him at night ; and as he is at hand, there is no want of medical aid. 121. What proportion of the regular poor are in tlie house? — We have 800 or thereby at present, regidar poor in the house ; and upwards of 200, who may' be called on the house. They are not in the house ; but they are fed and clotlicd wholly at the expense of the house. They arc young children that we call at nurse. So that there are upwards of 1000 alto- gether that are fully maintained. I cannot well give the exact number of outdoor poor ; but there are very nearly 1000 who receive a regular supply ; from 4s. to 6s. for six weeks. Then there is a great number who are supplied temporarilj^, but for a short time only, till they obtain means of subsistence. 122. Am I to understand that tlie greater number of the regular poor in the City of Edinburgh are outdoor paupers ? — Yes. 123. Are there any able-bodied women in the house ? — We must have a number of per- sons of that description to perform the work of the house. 124. How many are there of that description ? — We have many of our workers nearly seventy years of age ; we have sixteen washers — they may all be called able-bodied ; and eighteen nurses, many of them very frail. We find great difficulty in getting their place supplied when vacant ; but the average age of all the male inmates is sixty-two and a-half ; of the females, the average age is sixty-two and a-half fully. There are 210 whose average 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniinatiuns. age 18 seventy years. We have a very small proportion of what may be called able-bodied W R~h TV • ^vomen, and a smaller proportion of able-bodied men. 2 Maicli l«4:{. -'^^' ^^o ^^^^ inmates do any work in the house? — The whole clothing of the inmates is made in tlie house. The whole clothing for the children at nurse is likewise made in the house ; and they are allowed to sew and knit for themselves ; and there is scarcely one of the females — not one in thirty — that is not enij)loyed. For the able-bodied men, the mana- gers once tried to introduce the breaking of whinstones ; but an Irish laboiu-er would have done more than all of them put together ; and we found the attempt was vain, and gave it up. 126. When you mention able-bodied, do you mean 2)eople below sixty, sound and healthy ? — Yes. 127. How do they get relief at all ? — ^\\niy, these people perhaps are sent in bad health, and recover ; and there arc cases, such as that of a person who is given to intemperance, in which case he or she is brought in for security ; and we are glad to get a stout worker. We have several scr\ants of this description who occasion a considerable deal of confusion Qiid trouble ; but we contn\e to manage them. 128. Is it the case that the charity workhouse has inmates who are paid for outdoor labour ? — ^\V^e have a few individuals who are pennitted to go out of the house to work ; and a good many who get work sent in to them ; and both of these get some small pay- ment for their labour. 129. Do you retain any of those who arc over sixty when they are perfectly well ? — I scarcely know an instance of a male or female, above sixty, being turned out after re- covering. 130. Then you woidd call such a person able-bodied, — one who is above sixty, and healthy ? — Yes. 131. Have you any men below sixty who are able-bodied ? — I can't say I could point out many. There is one fifty-five ; he is partially insane. Then there is one sixty, working in the tailors' shop ; he is quite well. I see several below sixty who are unsound : one is an idiot, another deaf, another lame. I don't believe there are half a dozen males in the house sound and able-bodied. 132. So you consider those who are under sixty, and sound, as objects of parochial relief? — I would not tliink so. 133. How is it you still keep them ? — They are sent in from some defect originally, and they are just allowed to remain in. 134. Then that is a sort of irregularitj^ ? — There are only three or four in the books of that description. Four, I think, would be the M'holc. 135. You find those under sixty useful in the house, — could the work in the house go on without these able-bodied men ? — There are none of them employed. Able-bodied women we could not do without. 136. K you have a man perfectly sound under sixty, and unfit for any profitable employ- ment, would you keep him ? — I have nothing to do with keeping him. 137. What I mean is, woidd the Board of IVIanagers keep him ? — They are kept. 138. One you mention was a tailor, and emjiloyed as a tailor; but if there was a man sixty, who at the same time is a sound and able-bodied man, would the Board of INIanagers V)e disposed to keep him in the house ? — They do so. They have always done it ; they always have had one, two, three, or four. 139. But do they do it as a general rule? — ^It is not a rule; it is for the convenience of the management. These persons might get out ; but if they were out, they would be greater plagues out than in the house. There are three persons in the house who are of no use. 140. They have a legal claim to relief? — They have. They woidd be entitled to an out- pension, according to the decision of the managers ; and the managers think it better to take them into the workhouse. 141. But you state that they are taken into tbe house without reference to any regulation? — There are instances in which they get in. I can mention about four or five. 142. But you would not receive applications fi*om unemployed persons ? — There are a great many about Edinburgh just now. Are they allowed to receive an outdoor pension ? — I don't know A\hat the managera might do in cases of distress. That does not come under my giudance ; but we have persons of that description sent us. 143. You said you had some pensioners— soldiers or sailors, I suppose ? — Soldiers. We never had a sailor since I knew the house. 144. You keep them in the house. Don't you apply the whole proceeds of their pension to keeping them ? — :No ; there is generally a small portion allowed to each of them. They allow, perhaps, one-half of it. The managers have agreed to give it when they send them in. The half goes for maintenance ; and they procure some extra comforts, which the house does not provide. 145. But are these persons allowed to get things into the house — comforts, as you say, from any one who chooses to send them ? — What they get in is bestowed by those who send it, or is from the produce of their own work — -others can earn a little, and they spend that on tea and sugar, or something in the way of extra victuals. They are all fond of tea ; and t'le house does not allow more than a certain quantity, which does not go over more than fifty or sixty of the inmates. The house allows 8 oz. of tea per day for the whole house ; once they allowed only three and a-half, but in November 1841, the quantity was increased to half a pound. POOE LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 9 140. You mentioned tliat they were employed in making clothes and otherwise ? — They are allowed to work for joeople ; but of course are not paid for what they do in the house. 147. How do you regulate the time for labour out of the house and in ? — "VVTien there Is a demand for the use of the house, they are emj)loyed to assist in supplying it. Every year we give away a large quantity of clothing, — a very large proportion of these is made by the inmates. 148. Do they receive presents of money when in the workhouse ? — Certainly. 149. And drink ? — No drink. 150. Do they receive wine or spirits from their friends ? — No. The surgeon may order it, but only under the care of the master and mistress of the house ; otherwise it is not given ; it is strictly prohibited. The gatekeeper, indeed, is required chiefly to prevent the introduction of spirits. 151. That is the only restriction? — The only restriction. 152. Are they allowed tobacco ? — There is a nJc of the house that they are not to smoke in the wards ; but we cannot prevent them from doing so. There are 200 who smoke ; but the great proportion of them are not able to get tobacco. There is no tobacco allowed by the house. 153. How do they get it ? — They are allowed, once a week, to go out of the house. They then get tobacco from their acquaintances ; and what they earn by work they spend upon, tea and tobacco. Examinations. Mr Robert Bowie. 2 Marcli liiiS, Mr Archibald Campbell, Treasurer of the Canongate Charity Workhouse, Examined : — Mr A. Campbell. 154. You are treasurer of the Canongate Charity Workhouse ? — Yes. 155. How long have you been in that situation ? — This is the second year only. About a year and tlu-ee quarters. 156. How many inmates have you? — They average from nmety-three to ninety-five; from ninety to a hundred, I think. 157. Of all descriptions, — males, females, and children? — Yes. 158. Have you any knowledge of the total number of poor in the parish of Canongate ? — I have knowledge ; but I don't pay them at all. I am supplied with money from the assess- ment committee, which is used for the workhouse ; but I don't even pay the out-pensioners. However, I can tell your Lordship what is the number of out-pensioners. From 1841 to 1842 there were 157 ; they are regularly upon the poor's roll. 159. Lender whose management is the Canongate Workhouse ? — Under the management of a certain number of managers, chosen annually. 160. Wiioni are they chosen by ?— The magistrates take a leading part. A certain num- ber go out, and those in office choose their successors. 161. Have you any printed tables of diet or expenditure ? — Accounts are kept by the governor and matron. I have a printed report of the income and expenditure of the house, which is settled annually by the auditors. [" An Abstract of Receipt and Expendltm-e of the Canongate Charity Workhouse, from 28th May 1841 to 28th May 1842," was here put in.] 162. Your fiinds are chiefly derived from assessment ?— Yes. 163. What is the rate of assessment ? — Two shillings in the poimd. One shilling on the landlord, and one sliiDing on the tenant annually. 164. Is it on the fidl rental? — Yes, it is. It would not be so high had we not been a little in debt. You see, we were 700?. In debt ; but we are paying off" 100?. a year. The assess- ment will be less when the debt is paid off. 1 65. Who regulate the mode of assessment ? — The magistrates and heritors. 1 66. Have they a regular statement laid before them ? — They have, on the first Tuesday of August. 167. Who regulate the diet in the house ? — The house committee. The governor and matron distribute ; but the house committee regulate the quantity. 168. Has it remained at the present rate for a considerable time ? — Last year and tliis is rather less — I mean as to the quantity, not the cost. There is no dift'erence about the quan- tity since I have been connected with the house. 169. And that quantity is regulated by the committee ? — Yes. If you had the convener of the house committee, he would be able to give you a great deal more information. 170. Do you act as secretary ? — No; I merely dispense money. I don't collect. There are lOOL or 150?. a year, received from the kirk-treasurer for baptisms, and from the kirk- yard. 171. Do you attend the meetings of managers ? — I am a manager likewise from the kirk- session. 172. Is this Abstract of Receipt and Expcndltm'c correct, so far as you know? — So far as I know, I believe this paper is coirect. 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE T^VIvEN BEFORE THE £xaiii illations. Mr William Maxwell Little, Clerk to the Managers of St Cuthbert's Parish, Edinburgh, Examined : — WrW M. Littl.> 2 .March ll(4:t. 173. \Miat office do you hold ?— I am clerk to the managers of St Cuthbert's Parish. 174. Do you keep the books and accounts? — My duty is to keep the register of the out- door paupers. 175. You have no conceiTi with the internal management ? — No, Mr Gray has that. 176. Are you clerk to the kirk-session? — No, but to the managers. 177. AVhat is the number of managers ? — There are 120 appointed annually, by the heri- tors and kirk-session. 178. What number have you on the roll? — The number of our out-pensioners waa 1195 on the first of August last. That is, exclusive of those who are in the house. 179. ^^^lo decides upon the claims for relief? — The managers of the various districts. Tiiere are 120 managers, divided into six districts of the parish, each board consisting of twenty, who meet once every month, to decide on all applications for outdoor relief. 180. Do they regvdate also the amount of relief? — The managers also regulate the relief. 181. Have they no general rule, so that one committee may not give more than another? — They have no fixed rule^but there is an understiinding ; and the relief depends on the circumstances of the paupers ; but each committee endeavours to act like others, and they assimilate themselves as much as possible. 182. Have you any set of lists ? — There is a list of all our outdoor pensions. [Witness here put in 9th Report of the Managers of tlie Poor of the Parish of St Cuthbert's.] I have also a list for the last nine years ; but I have not a copy for the whole Commission. The names of tlie paupers, their place of birth, their age, and aUowanee, are given, 183. So far as you know, every thing in this book is correctly stated ? — It is. 184. AVhat would a widow with one child get — I mean the highest scale of allowance — say for a widow with two children ? — We have given 5s., 6s., and 8s., per month. 185. Rut for the highest ? — AVe have given 8s. to a woman ^\•\t\\ two children for one month. 186. What is the highest rate of allowance given to a widow y\\i\\ children ? — ^AVe have given 10s. and 12s. a month. 187. Is 12s. the utmost? — There may have been some at 16s. ; but they are not generally above 12s. AA'^here there is no sickness, we give 4s. or 5s. to a woman and two children. AVliere there are tlu-ee children, 5s. or 6s., four children, 7s, or Ss. A widow with five chil- dren may get 8s, or lOs. A woman with six children, 10s. or 12s. 188. TiuTi to No. 1057 — Hannah Black, with seven children; she has 5s. a month ? — Yes, that woman having four children more than twelve years of age. 189. Elizabeth Dow, No. 10G8, with six children; do you suppose any of these children earn any thing for themselves ? — I think the two oldest. She was deserted by her husband. The manajrers don't encourage that mode of leaving their wives. 190. Have you much personal intercourse Avith the paupers ?— Yes ; not only in the way of ordinary business, but in the course of visiting. I have taken upon me to visit them, at the request of the managers, twice in the year, and I visit often monthly, to see that they do not want for any thing. 191. Do you conceive that a portion of the people, on the poor roll, have come into the parish merely to obtain a settlement ? — I do think a number come from the country parishes to obtain a settlement in Edinburgh, knowing that they can get a legal provision. 192. Do you mean that they come at advanced peiiods of life, when they are still able to work ? — Yes ; they are still able to work partially. A man or woman comes to the parish, continues for three years, and then applies to the parish. 193. AA'^oidd they not be entitled to relief in tlieir own parishes? — They would, had they remained in their own parishes, but they have no provision made for them. 1 94. How is there no provision ? — There are no poor laws in operation. They depend on the volimtary contributions at the church floors. That is the only supply in a certain number of parishes. A great number of them have no poor law establishment. 195. You mean no assessment ? — No assessment. 196. But in the parishes where there is no assessment, would the poor not be provided for ? — They would, out of the church door collections ; but not in the same way in which they would by an assessment. 197. Then you think, in that case, the allowance would be smaller? — Very small. 1 98. But is it not tlie case, that they often come here to obtain work ? — They often come to obtain work ; but, in consequence of being disabled, ultimately come on the parish. 199. AYhether do you think their chief object is to obtain A\'ork, or to secure relief mider the poor law, after they have got a settlement ? — I think their chief object is to find work. They think more employment is to be got here, 200. Have you any tabular statement of the poor of the parish, who are bom in the parish, distinguishing them from those who are not ? — Yes, my Lord ; if you turn to page 55. 201. Have you had much practical experience in the rural districts ? — Not much. 202. So, in referring to them, you speak rather fi-om licarsay than fi-om positive observa- tion ? — I speak from the paupers coming from those districts. 203. Have you observed any difference in their coming to Edinburgh from the assessed, as compared with the non-assessed, parishes ? — From the information I have, there is a very considerable difference. POOE LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 11 204. Do you moan to say that a greater number come from the imassesscd parishes, than Exami nations. from the assessed, to obtain a settlement ? — Why, it seems to nie, that they come more from the unassesscd than from the assessed parishes to St Cuthbert's. 2 m- . You have a general impression, from conversation with the paupers, that a greater number come from the non-assessed parishes than from the assessed ? — Yes ; but 1 cannot give any tabular etatement. That is the general impression left upon my own mind, from what has been stated by the paui)ers. I might mention, in particular, a case from Wick, where a woman came with her children, and remained a few days in the parish. She applied for relief. We told her she bcho^'c'ould introduce a a sliding scale, like Sir Robert Peel's sliding scale, ai, once. In this way a man due i)L would be charged '61. 3s., Is. of expenses ; and Is. 6d., only Gd. Mr Andrew Jack, one of the Managers of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse, Examined : — Mr Ami. Jack. 808. Are you one of the managers of the Edinburgh Charity Woi'khouse ? — Yes. 809. How long have you been so ? — I don't recollect precisely, but suppose ten or eleven years. 810. On what committees have yon generally acted ? — I have been on various committees. There is a general committee, called the ordinary managers, which generally controls the whole business of the establishment. I have been on the house committee, the bedlam com- mittee, and am at present on the finance committee. 811. Have you been in the habit of visiting the dwellings of the poor? — For many years before I was connected with the workhouse. 812. Have you had an opportunity of fonning an opinion Avith regard to the inadequacy of the provision for the poor ? — Many opportunities. 813. Have you formed an opinion on the subject; and what are your opinions? — Yes, I have. I have always understood the general principle on ■^^■hich aid Is given in Scotland, is, that it is not for the entire support of individuals or families, but merely as an assist- ance ; and, in that view of it, where families required assistance, I considered the allo;vance pretty fair. But there is a diiFerence of opinion about the principle on which the poor law is administered in Scotland. Some think that entire support should be given, while others think that mere assistance is required. 814. Do you deem the allowance given, combined with other sources of income — such as assistance from relatives, and persons of the same rank of life — sufficient for the decent main- tenance of the poor on the list ? — If I may judge, from what I have seen in the houses, of what are commonly called our outdoor poor, I would say, that with a few exceptions, the aid given is sufficient. But I h6pe you understand that there are two classes of outdoor poor In Edinburgh ; one class, properly called outdoor poor — who have a regular quarterly pension — and another class, who receive temporary aid. These are not merely of dificrcnt grades, but of diflf'erent characters. And it would be hard for the managers to say, whether they had given sufficient or not ; because a very great proportion of the aid is very ill applied. But a great pi-oportlon of the regular outdoor poor are a very decent class, and make a good use of what they get. 815. You think, as a fact, that they have other sources of income, independent of their allowance, which enable them to live pretty comfortably ? — Clearly. They must have other som-ces. 816. In the case of applicants for relief, do you make a distinction betwixt those who have a settlement in the parish, and those who have not?— Those who have not acquu-ed a legal settlement, arc not paupers dependent on us at all. In a case of extreme distress, they may get a little temporary assistance ; but they are not taken regidarly on the fiinds. Where we find their own parish, they get assistance ; and the expense is charged on the legal parish. But we don't consider that weare bound to give permanent relief, except to those who have a legal residence. 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Exaniiimtioiis. 817. In an a])[)licati()n made by a party who has not ret-klcd three years, but who is m extreme distress, what would you do ? — Refuse it. 4' Miwi'li i'rj^ ^^^- ^" *'"' ^'""'^ ^'*'''' "^ extreme distress, hud the party belonged to your parish, you would have granted relief"? — If eircin)istanees waiTanted. 819. You would sonietiuies gi\e relief to parties not in extreme distress? — It depends on what extreme distress might be — extreme distress which might warrant relief in cases where legal residence has not been acquired. I woidd suppose a woman with a large family, left a Avidow, and jK'rliapsperst)nal sickness prevailing in the family — imable to do anything for her support ; in that case, a little temporaiy aid would be "iven. In another case, that of those who have obtained a legal residence, relief >vould be given in tlie case of old age, or inability to labour for their own support. So long as the father is alive, and held able to work, they are not entitled to relief. 820. In the case of old age, to a person belonging to the parish, you would grant relief? You Mould not grant it to a person who has not a legal settlement? — That is going nicely into it. If it A\erc required, to prevent stiirvation, it would be given. That is a case of extremity. 821. But, if it wore not a case of extremity, and the man did not belong to the jjarish, you would hot give him relief? — -No. 822. From what you have seen of the condition of the poor, during the last ten or eleven years, is it your impression that the condition of the poor is improving or deteriorating ? — Deteriorating. 823. From what class of facts do you infer that ?— From a great variety of facts which have come under my o\ra observation. For I have had connexion with the poor, not only as a manager of the workhouse, but in the Destitute Sick Society. I cannot condescend on any particular class of facts. The misery of the poor seems advancing very rapidly in the city. The state of their dwellings — the condition in wliich the children are brought u]) — and the appearance of their persons, in the great majority of cases — the total neglect of the education of their children — show })!ainly to me that the character which once distinguished our Scottish population, is fast, fast departing from us. 824. Are their pecuniary resources less than they used to be ? — They cei-tainly are, even in the better class of the lower orders. 82.5. Do you accoimt by that for their not taking such pains with the ediication of their children ?• — I cannot account for it in that way. In Edinburgh they have the means of gra- tuitous education. They are deteriorating in character as well as in circumstances. There is gross neglect of the moral well-being of their children, as well as their external com-^ fort. 820. Do you asci-ibe that deterioration to any particular cause? — There is one cause to which I have long been disposed to trace it. There may be others. But one cause im- jjressed strongly on my mind, is the great influx of Irish. They have not only, so far as I have seen, a direct evil effect on the morals of the people, but an indirect evil effect in the same way. 827. What is the indirect effect? — The indirect efitct is this : The vast number of them that settle in Edinburgh and the vicinity, has prodigiously lowered the price of all labour ; and those families of the same grade who used to be comfortable, are in reduced circum- stances ; and the poverty induced by that, has an effect on the moral character. 828. In the neighbourhood of Edinburgh, would they, in some counties, be able to take in their harvest without the assistance of Irish laboiu'crs ? — I am scarcely competent to an- swer that question ; but, I believe, last year, there were fewer Irish labourers than before ; and the farmer had no difficulty in getting assistance. 82i). You mean bj' that temporary labourers ? — Yes. It is remarkable, that those who come to the harvest leave a ^'ast number behind them. They never return in any thing like the projjortion in which they come here^never. 830. Do you ascribe the deterioration of the poor to an increase in the use of ardent spirits ? — Oh, surely ; the effect of that is most miserable. 831. Has intemper-ance increased considerably in your opinion? — It is difficult to saj. In some quarters of the town there is an increase ; yet it is generally on the decrease. In the Cowgate, for instance, there is much less of intemperance within the last four years. 832. Among the Koman Catholics, are there not societies for abstaining from spuituous liquors ?^-Yes ; tliat class is very nmch improved. 833. Then, so far as that class is concerned, they raise the standard among the Scotch ? — It is a very recent thing that. But," unfortunately, the effect produced by their previous conduct has not been got the better of. 834. What direct effect is j)roduced on the character of the Scotch by the Irish labourers? — The direct effect is simply that, generally speaking, the Irish who come to this country are of the very lowest grade. Very few of them can even read. As to morals, they never ob- sene anything in the shape of morals. Consequently, their conduct is of the most immoral description ; and the effect on the labouring poor is very evident. Evil propagates itself; and wherever character comes in contact with moral beings of their description, it must de- teriorate. 835. Plavc you been in the habit of conversing with the lower orders, — Scotchmen who come from different quarters ? — Very often. 830. Have you any reason to believe that those who get on the poor's roll here, though from other places, come to gain a settlement, or from other causes ? — I should suppose so ; and my reason is this, — that in endeavouring to get them returned to their own parishes — even after they are quite incapable of doing anything here — the greatest unwillmgness to POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTL.^^D. 37 return is manifested. From that I would infer, that on their coming to Edinburgh, though not for the direct pui-pose of getting on the poor roll, yet, after being here, and contrasting what they get here with what they would get in the coimtry, they are influenced by the desire of gaining a settlement. 837. Do you speak of those who have been for a short period, as well as of those who have been for a long period ? — It is chiefly with respect to those who are here for a short period. No advantage would be gained by removing them, if they had been here for three years. There are efforts made to rcmo^■e them ; but it is with the utmost reluctance on their part that it can be effected. 838. What is the principal motive from -^shich they come here ? — Many from the best motives, endeavouring to support themselves ; but many of the«e find themselves disapiwinted after coming. 839. Have you ever heard them complain of the smallness of the allowance in country parishes ? — Such may be the case. 840. Then this is rather an inference of your own ? — Yes. 841. Your opinion is not founded on their statements, but on your own reasoning? — Yes. 842. Arc there not other advantages which poor people derive from charitable insti- tutions besides the poorshouse : may that not be an inducement to remain here ? — I believe it is. 843. Do you think it would be desirable to alter the Scottish law of settlement ? — I think it would be of vast importance to Scotland. 844. What alteration would you pi'opose ? — I think the law of settlement in Scotland should be something like that in England. The pliice of birth ought to be made the ground of settlement. Scotland suflTers sadly from the difference in the law of settlement betwixt it and England — sadly. 845. How ? — Oh, chiefly with regard to the Irish. They have only to spin out three years in Scotland, and then they are entitled to parochial relief. And the burden is enor- mous in that way ; vast numbers leave their wives and families even before they have ac- quired a settlement : and a }K)or woman, just bj- means of public charities, lives and lotlges in a hovel till the three years expire, and then she comes upon the parish. 846. Woidd any change of the law be of advantage with respect to the Scottish rural dis- tricts ? — I think it would. In many parts of the country there are no buildings in which the poor can live. Immediately on their being unfit for labour, they must quit. They retu'e to some large towns, where they live for the three years. 847. Though they give their labours to the nu"al parish ? — Of course ; their labour is use- ful to their native parishes, so long as they have strength and health. But, strength and health beingg one, flit they must — and they have no alternative. If, after leaving their native parish, they, previous to the expiry of three years, become burdens on a town parish, then the i>arish claims on the proper parish — recourse is had to them ; but when the three years are elapsetl there is none. 848. But, might not a person spend the best part of his life in a parish where he was not born ? — He might. 849. Do you thiuk it i-ight to make the parish where he was bom sustain him in old age, when he has lived in another ? — I confess there is a hardship there ; hut, adopt any general principle you like, there are objections against it. Perhaps that is a very general objection. 850. What would you say to an extension of the residence as necessary to establish a title ? — It is a subject for consideration, both on the one side and on the other ; and it is only of late that 1 began to thiftk the law of residence in England better than anything here. But any extension, even for seven or ten years, would be a great boon to Scotland. But it occurs to me, that a general piinciple, which could be acted on in all parts of the empire — England, Scotland, and Ireland — woidd be best, that all might enjoy the like advantages. I saw a poor man, sitting at the workhouse to-day, who had been out of Edinburgh forty years in England. He was sent down by a ship, and left at the workhouse gate, and we are forced to take him in. Now, we could not do the same with England and Ireland. 851. Was he born in the parish? — Born here. 852. Is it your understanding, that there is no other settlement but that by birth in Eng- land ? — Tliere is also a right by apprenticeship. 853. Ai"e you aware that a party paying a rent of 101. value, and taxes for a year, gives a settlement in England ? — I was not aware of that circumstance. Exaiiiinatiuns. V.r And. JacV. 4 March 184:5. Mr David RiJpath, one of the Managers of the EdinburgTi Charity Workhouse, Examined :— 854. You are one of the managers of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse ? — Yes. 855. How long have you been so? — Since 1835. For the last eight years. 856. What particular committee of the managers have you acted upon ? — I am convener of the commission committee, and I am on the children's committee, the purchasing com- mittee, and some others, I believe ; and various other sub-committees, not stationary or annual, I am frequently ujjon, 857. Have you had an opportunity of forming an opinion, whether the lower orders have been improving or deteriorating in condition within the last few years ? — I do think that Mr D. Ridpath. 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaiiiinations. Mr I). Ridpatli. 4 .March 1 84:<. thei'c are more applications on cliarity for the last two or three years ; the last two years, I may say, than formerly, when I first entered upon office. 858. lias the amount given to each individual supplied been increased ? — To a widow with a family, say two children- — if they iU"e in good health, and the mother able to do uonie- thuig, we give 7s. Gd. in the half (puirter, Is. 3d. a week ; if not able to do, we advance it according as we think what would be necessary to support them. When she is not able to do, we have given as high as 3s. 6d. ; but that is only temporary. That is within the last two years ; but, previous to that, when imablc to do anytliing, we gave them a provision. K they were profligate and dissipated, we gave them provisions from a shop. 859. These are the rates of allowance now given. Are the rates increased or diminished ? — They are rather increased than diminished. 860. I mean, whether the rate of idlowance given to each individual is Increased or di- minished ? — We don't calculate in that way. W^e give what the clrcmnstanees require. 861. Is the rate higher or lower than what woidd have been given to tlie same indivi- duals some years ago ? — We have been giving rather more. 862. Is it your opinion that the allowance is now sufficient? — There is no allowance suffi- cient in Scotland to kecj) any family. The present allowance, so far as I know. Is not sufficient to keep them without assistance. 863. But would you think it advisable to increase the allowance ? — In many cases not. Because there arc many of our paupers, who come ujjon us, and say, give us so much, we don't want more, we can get meat for ourselves, provided we can get om- rents paid. The rent seems the great drawback that most of them have. They can get meat ; but they cannot get money for paying their house rent. 864. Is the education of that class as well attended to as fonnerly ? — We have asked whether the children are put to school ; and greater attention has been paid, \\ithln the last five or six years, than before. 865. You stated just now, that if the allowance- were mcreased, it would not be produc- tive of good ? — There are not a few instances in which no good woidd result. 866. Are there other instances where you think it would be good ? — I don't think it would be either. To some persons it would not do good, because nothing coidd prevent them from diverting it from the proper use. Other classes are sober and industrious people, ^^■ho don't requu-e it, because, mdcss they are in ill health, they reqiure nothing more. But, at the same time, whatever you give them, they are the better for it. Supposing a decent j)auper had 4s. a week, he would be better. AH the decent paupers we had, never claimed for extra chanty ; and when they have done so, and stated their case, and established it, they have generally been allowed it. 867. Then your opinion is, that the allowance is adequate ? — I stated before that it was not adequate. 868. Taking into account the other sources of income ? — They have no other sources of income. Many old people receive something from families where they have been as servants. If they get broken meat or refuse from a house, that is as much as supplies them with food. I have known two or three families that have their regular decent paupei-s, who come every day and get something. We like it better in that way. In a place where they were known, when they were young, they are relieved ; families supply them to the day of their death, and often bury them. 869. Do you believe that many, or any on the roll, subsist by begging? — There were a great many who made a subsistence by begging.' But since the rural police was established, it has brought into the town a great number of the i)oor, who gamed a livelihood by selling small articles, going about with baskets. Now, the rural police would not allow them in the country ; and great complaints have been made by persons who were employed in selling small wai-es, that they are hindered from getting a livelihood by such means ; they are forced into the towns, and thrown upon the charities. 870. My question was, whether any, or many of those on the j)ermanent roll, subsisted by begging ? — There are none, to my knowledge, on the pennanent roll that subsist by begging ; for, when they are in that state, we take them into the house. The admission committee, ■\\hen they know them to be destitute, and unable to work, take them in ; and many take a sum rather out of the house than go into the house. 871. What is the number of individuals in the workhouse at present? — The statement would show that ; but it is between 400 and 470. 872. Is there acconmiodation for many more than you have in the workhouse? — We generally have as many as we think projjer to put in;' and we just admit one as another dies out. 873. You are chairman of the admission committee ?— Yes. 874. You decide on the cases of relief, after consulting v.ith the committee ?— We are very unanimous upon that point. There are not two cases in the twelve months, on which there is a difference of opinion. We have a meeting every Thursday. Sometimes two — sometimes four attend. We have a meeting every Friday for appeal cases. I am con- vener of that committee ; and it settles all cases of dispute. 875. I wish you to state the general average of the numbers who attend? — From five to ten. 876. Have you anything to state? — I may state, that paupers belonging to different parishes in Scotland, when they apj)ly for relief, are driven from one to another, without any person taking up their case ; and I have felt for the poor, Avhen they have no body to look after them, on being sent away from this place and that. In the Edinburgh charity work- house, we sit every week ; and the treasurer has it in his power, when any body applies, to POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTL.VND. 39 give temporary aid. He is bound, on Thursday, to report ; and tlie case is then taken up, and they sanction the money he lias given. With regard to other parishes, I may mention a case wliich occurred no longer ago than yesterday. The man was aged 77, and of St Cuthbert's palish. He was a wright, but got a hurt in his hand. His son is out of work. He appHed for relief to the Destitute Sick Society. I told him to go to the parish of St Cuthbert's. He got a schedule ; but did not get relief. I know this is not tlie general princijile of the \Vest Church; but it was the act of two individuals, whom I think it right to name, jMr Buniet and IMr Dewar. Relief would not be given tiU three weeks had elaj)sed. Now, I say that is not right. He should not want in the meantime. I gave him some little trifle myself; but he got nothing fi-oni his parish. 877. There are instances of cases getting on the list immediately ? — There is a difficulty in getting money instantly. That is the case in the workhouse. But I know that it is not generally the rule there. 878. In the Edinburgh charity workhouse, you admit them at once ? — ^They have no difficulty in getting on in the city parish. I have known them endeavouring to make a residence in the city parishes, as a means of getting money sooner and quicker. 879. Do you confine your difficulty only to these two managers ? Do you make a similar statement with respect to any other parishes of Scotland ? — No ; I don't state anything about other parishes. But there is a difficulty with them, from our treasurer not getting prompt answers to his letters, with regard to paupers chargeable on them, and from their having no assessment. In Caithness, for instance, there is no assessment for the poor ; and some time elapses before they get money — for money is not in the hands of the minister, and he must give it out of his owm pocket. I may state, that we have a temporary aid list ; at present there are 160 upon it — 33 Irish, and say 50 belonging to other parishes. Half of the temporary aid belongs to other parishes ; and I mention this, in order to show that we give relief to the poor of other parishes, whether they belong to our parish or not. Examinations. Mr D. Ridpath. 4 Maich 18«. ,Mr John Gray, one of the Managers of the West Church Charity Workhouse, Examined : — Mr. John Gray. 880. You are one of the managers of the West Church charity workhouse ? — Yes ; I have been so for upwards of nine years. 881. What committee of managers do you belong to? — I am chainnan of the house com- mittee, and I am also chairman of the six divisions of the parish ; and there are a great number of committees, of which I am a member. That is the situation I hold in these two departments. 882. Is it part of the duty of any committee to judge of the admission of the poor per- sons who apply for relief? — 1 am chairman of a committee which judges of the sixth part of all the applications. 883. And you are in the habit of regularly attending ? — I am in the habit of very re- gularly attending. 884. Have the allowances been increased or diminished ? — Rather increased. 88.5. Are you satisfied with the amount now usually given ? — I am pretty much satisfied with it, for the aged and impotent individuals ; but the allowance to widows, with children, is too small. What satisfies me about the first is, that we allow them the liberty of coming into the workhouse when they cannot subsist on what they get out of doors. From that cause I am satisfied with the allowance of the outdoor aged paupers. 886. Are any of them willing to come in? — The prevailing feeling is against coming into the workhouse. The general feeling can be stated, to a certainty, as against going in. 887. Do you think the circumstances of the lower orders are deteriorated or improving of late ? — Deteriorating very much. 888. In point of morals, as well as circumstances ?— As to morals I cannot so much speak ; but the circumstances of the working classes, as a whole, are deteriorating. 889. AVhat are the causes of that ? — The want of work. 890. Do you think the same attention is paid to the education of their children as used to be ? — I think not. 891. Has the number of Irish increased in your parish? — They haA'e increased lately very rapidly. We used to publish, in the report for the year, a list of all the paupers receiv- ing from the charity. Last year, we had the report printed for the two previous years, adopting a mode of distinguishing the i)lace of birth ; and thus it may be ascertained where they come fi-om, better than from any other method we have practised. And by the statement for the two last years, you will find that the number of Irish is considerably on the increase. 892. Do you think the management improved since it was transfeiTcd from the kirk- session ? — I had no opportunity of judging of it under the ku-k-session ; but the present system of administration by the managers, gives pretty general satisfaction. 893. Do you think the proceedings of the committee of admission are uniform ? — Our clerk is instructed to guide them to uniformity, as much as they can be led to adopt it. But that depends much on the respective chairmen, and the mode of conducting the business is more or less liberal accordingly. I should think that one committee of admission would admit on more uniform principles than six ; but we find one committee not competent to dispose of all the cases. But, by dividing into six, the work is accomplished. 894. Do you think a paid officer would be necessary in investigating cases ? — As an indi- vidual, I think so from experience. When the heritors and kirk-session differed, the heritors 40 MINUTES OF E^^DEXCE TAKEX BEFORE THE Examinations, then being to soine degree excited, thought there would be no difficulty in doing the work y ~ ~ of a person appointotl to take charge of inquiring into the cases of tiie paupers, by a suf- 4 March I84/. ficient body of the hcritoi-a being appointed managers ; our number is 120, and the parish was divided into sixty small districts. Eadi connnittee has a district to overlook, that it is their duty to go over once a montli, and report at the monthly meeting. They rc()ort whether there are changes by death or otherwise, or any circumstances requiring the board to take the case again into consideration, and order a diminution or an increase. Each small district has from ten to thirty poor, just as the poor may be in the different kK-a^ lities ; and on these they re|)ort, with the a(Ulition of the now claims, at each meeting. The managers thought, the numbers being so small, that thcix) would bo no difficulty in scru- tinizing the cases sufficiently, and that the duty would make them, as a body, acquainted with the state of the poor, and many general things about the parish. But, after the excitement has passed over, in the course of nine years, the Avorking efficiency, in mj' indi- vidual opinion, is not so great as at the commencement. And I have observed that point carefully, so far as I am able, in order to satisfy my own mind that an efficient paid superintendent woidd be more likely to do justice to the cases 5 for this reason, that with those managers who have their own business to look after, that becomes the first con- cern. It is not always convenient for them to go and nm after a pauper s ease ; and, in that way, a case may be delayed a day or two, or eight days or more ; whereas, I think all cases ought to be considered immediately, and the ajiplications brought to a bearing in some way. Another reason i*, that the managers seem getting tired of the burdensome duty of running about inquiring after poor cases. And though they do not, in as many words, state their im\villingness to do it, yet, it appears to me, fi"om what is done, that there is unA\ illingnoss and laxness, and that inciTasing according to the time and calling of the parties, iind I know many who have gi^cn up the duties of managei-s, because they consider those duties too much. These are the grounds on which I think a paid superintendent desirable. I have also stated my views to some of our managers, and I have found a number of them having suuilar views, while the great body do not hold these views. It will take some time and experience to bring them to adopt this measure ; but I believe it will come, and that in a short time. 895. Is there occasion to increase the size of the charity workhouse ?-^-There is none ; we have spare room at present. 890. How many inmates are there in the workhouse ?— I think we have in it 437, at an average. The average for the past year is 464, one less than the year previous. We have room. We have had 500 in it. 897. Then you think the worldiouse can conveniently hold that number ?— Yes, I think it can. We have a large portion of the workhouse in which we kejjt the lunatic paupers ; and if we found the wants in the house, with regard to accommodation. Increase, we could turn that part of It to that purpose. 898. Is there any difficulty, on the part of the heritors, in assessing the sum which may be reckoned requisite for the maintenance of the poor ? — No ; I have not observed any dif- ficulty. The sum is so small, that no reasonable person would complain of that ; it never exceeded Is., and has been as low as 8d. 899. Is there not considerable difficulty In levying a portion of It ? — There is difficidty in raising it, but there was always that ; not from the backwardness of parties, but there nuist always be difficulty when you take a town and raise a tax. I don't know that there is greater difficulty In raising this than any other. A great many think they should pay it in preference to other taxes. No doubt a great quantity of It is outstanding. 900. Have you had occasion to observe, M'hether the allowance of the AVest Church ])arish has induced people to come from other quarters ? — .1 susj)ccted that it was so ; and, to satisfy my own niind, some very considerable time ago I made u]) a state of those who I thought were induced to come from that motive. This is an old document which nobody could read, and I can scarcely read it myself. I have eighty-two names here. All these persons came into the parish above sixty years of age, and after three years' residence, acquired a settlement. I cannot soe what could induce ])ersons of that age to remove from their parishes. In favour of the Idea that they came seeking work, I fear nothing can be siiid. Such a favourable constniction cannot be i)ut upon It j for poor and destitute people, this Is the best place, they think. I know a case of a person from a northern parish. She was quite destitute when she oame into the town 5 but she resided three years, and got relief. We ■wTote to the minister of the parish where she had formerly resided. She was a widow ; but I cannot mention her name. The minister wrote, saying she had left her pai'Ish without consulting him, and had found her way to Edinburgh ; and if she wished to come back as a pauper to them. In the same way as she came forward to Edinburgh, there woidd be a certain siun for her when she came back. The woman was desired to oidl, when sufficient time had elapsed, for an ansAvei-. The letters wore read to her. " Oh, gentlemen (says she), that will not do with me at all. I am a beggar in my own parish, and it Is better for me to be a beggar In Edinburgh than in my own parish. 1 am sure of something. I will remain and bog here." Here is one in the list at 72, and others at 67, G9, 71, 70, 75, 74, 72, 76, 79, 68, 65, 67, 60, 62, 66, and so on. There is one at 83 ; what can I suppose, in that case, except that she was a pauper before she oame ? 901. Was she a pauper when she came? — Yes. I put down the residences, in order to see whether they came to get In or not. I find all their residences considerably above three years, which puts me about; for, if I sup})ose they came to get parish relief, they might have been expected to api)ly when three years liad ex])ircd. Parish relief docs not take place till after the expiration of three years; but here, the time that elapsed was POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 41 either four or five. That makes me doubt whether they came to obtain a settlement, or whether they know the rule that three years is enough. There I stick a little ; but, if there were seven years' residence, 47 of that number (82) would have been excluded from relief. This is made up from the Report for 1841. 902. Have you turned your attention to the point, whether the paupers come from assessed or from non-assessed parishes ? — ^Ye?, I have some notes. There is one from Edinburgh, two from Canongatc, and so on ; tliese are parishes having assessment. From Dundee havino- an assessment, we have none here. I have, in all, seventeen fi-om the cities. There are sixty-five from country parishes, and the jjarishes from which they have come are down. I have eighty-two in the number — from sixty to seventy; of these, sixty-five are from coimtry parishes, eight from Ireland, two from England, one from sea, and six from large towns or cities. 903. Have you the names of the coimtry parishes from which the sixty-five came ? — These are from Libcrton, Kirkhston, and the parishes neighbouring on us. Then from Dalhousie there are two — ages 61 and 61. [See Report of 1840.] 904. Is there a parish of that name ; is it not Dalkeith ? — Dalkeith is the next in the list ; but Dalliousie shows the locality ; but, passing on from Dalkeith, there are two, ages 75 and (55 ; from Inverness two, both 68 ; from Dunbar one, 76 ; fi-om Prestonjians one, 69 ; from Port-monteith one, 86 ; from Dundee there is one, 60 years of age, but resident twenty. There is another from Dmidee, 36 years of age. I have also a small memorandum, as to twenty-seven paupers being on the roU, each having had only three years' residence. These people, I have very little doubt, came in for the sake of a settlement, because they came on the roll immediately on the expuy of the three years. There are eight havuig tlu-ee and a half years. I have taken a small memorandum as to the allowances in the Presbytery of Caithness; in Wick, the liighest is 11., the lowest 48. yearly. Adding these and dividing, the average is 12s. for each pauper per year. 905. Do you know over how long a period tliis fist ranges ; you don't mean that they all came in the same year ? — They were living in the parish as paupers that year. I have taken do^vn the ages they came in at, the length of time they were in before they applied for parochial relief, and then, by adding from that date to tliis, we can ascertain how long they have been in the parish. 906. Take the earliest date of entry, and the latest date, would that give you the average number of causes coming in yearly ? — I never thought of bringing it up yearly. I took the document as the roll of paupers existed at the time — making a point of ascertaining their age when they came in, and the number of years they had lived before relief. 907. Are there not other charities which might induce them to come to Edinburgh besides the charity workhouse ? — I have thought so, because tliere are a great many charitable insti- tutions in Edinburgh. I could not say so, but I fear that these charitable institutions are the mea-ns of drawing a number of poor to the city. 908. Refen-ing to the printed statement of pensioners, is it the parish where they have last settled, or where they were born, that is mentioned ? — Where they were bom. 909. Then they may have had an intermediate settlement ?— They may ; that would be a very right jioint to bring ont. You inquired if I was satisfied with the out-pensions given to both the classes of widows and aged. I said I was satisfied with the pensions given to the aged, because we had tlie poorhouse to offer, and any person who had that in his ofier could not be very ill off if he refiised to go in. That is the way in which we test that class ; as to widows with children, y\c have greater difficulty in the management of their cases. 910. Is it on account of the difficulty of disposing of the children ? — Yes ; and with re- gard to the amount of money to be paid, when we ascertain the number of children, and we have never been able to come to any decisive nde with respect to that matter. I manage the Newington district, and I take the numbers ; I happen also to have all those who reside in the Cowgate. For instance, Ellen Bennet has three children — seven, nine, and thirteen, and there is one fourteen. There seems a mistake ; and, instead of thirteen and fourteen, the ages are probably twelve and fourteen. The cliild at fom-teen, we consider we should not be burdened with. It should provide for itself. We don't consider it as belonging to the mother. If it is not sent out to service, we say it is the mother's carelessness. If they don't relieve them, we don't think we should continue the pension. That woman has three whom we tliink we ought to take care for, and she has 6s. She is healthy and able to work, and has been on the parish three years. Joanna Robison, residing in Cowgate, has only one child, and she has 68. The other has three children, and gets no more. To one not acquainted with the circumstances, this would seem strange ; but the one woman has a natural ehUd, and appears lU qualified for shifting for herself; and, being in great destitution, she is allowed 6s. hke the other, while the other is able to work. There is great diflaculty in settling these cases, in which we have no certain i-ule, but must decide according to the best of our judgment. Thus, we have a test when any widows come forward and say, we are not able to get on with our allowance ; then we say, we will take one or two of your cliildren into the house, and we do 80 ; but we don't consider that test so suflScient as the test with the old people, because we never take in a -widow with her whole children, except in a very singular case. It can- not be referred to as the ordinary rule of the managers. 911. And the mothers of illegitimate children, how do you deal with them ? — ^We have the greatest difficulty in managing their cases of any that come before us. We are dis- posed, as a body, to resist their cases in toto ; and we do so, till perfect destitution forces them upon us ; and, in those cases, they generally receive more than the regular widows ; Buch as in that case I refen-ed to — Joanna Robison's. Another in the Ust I manage, G Examinations. Mr John Gray. 4 March 1843. 42 :\nNUTES OF EVTOENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr John Gray. 4 March li)43, haa 4$. Another case of a wadowcd mother, with one child, got nothing, because we con- sidered that she might fight on a bit ; but those with natural children are generally with- out a house, and without any to coimtenance them. They are generally the most miser- able that apply. 912. And do you think it good policy to fight off that class, so that ultimately they become more expensive to the parish ? — We think, if we did not show a dislike to their mode of life, wc might be the means of increasing the evil. 913. Do you ever offer the workhouse to them ? — I don't think it. 914. But, eventually, they become more expensive by fighting them off ? — In all cases of mothei-s with natural children, if we think they can get on, we refuse them altogether ; but if they have neither house, nor home, nor means, and are perfectly helpless and destitute, exposed to be taken up by the police, and forced to fall on the house of refuge. If we find such cases, we take them up ; and because they are then in the most abject condition, the amount of rchcf required is the greater. 915. But is the rate not made higher for them, by your not sooner taking them ? — Higher ! No, no. 916. That is a matter of opinion. By fighting them off, do you make them more expensive? Do they not sink lower, because they have no occidt means of subsistence from friends ? In the case of widows, they are countenanced by parties living in the neighbourhood ; but, in the case of the mothers of iJlegitiraate children, they could coimt nothing on such countenance ? — I am not aware that we have forced them into greater destitution by not taking them up sooner. It is possible it may have done so ; but I cannot put my finger on a case in point. We are very much put about on that very point. Women, deserted, are taken up on the same footing as widows. With respect to Avldows and women deserted, we have no dlflficulty. 917. Are the number of desertions on the increase? — I have not paid any attention to that ; but the number of desertions is pointed out in the report ; and, by comparmg two reports, the state of the fact may be ascertained. 918. Among what classes are desertions most common? — The lower classes, and those given to drink. The husbands are the parties that always desert. 919. Do you imagine that the whole of their wives and cluldr^n being provided for is the cause of desertion ? — I don't tliink I could say so. That race is so depraved, that they would go whether their wives were to be supported or not. I have had the management of some families where the husband deserted, and have uniformly foimd that the husband was given to drink, and of irregular habits. 920. Then you think desertion arises from vice and intemperance, without reference to the maintenance of their cliildren and wives ? — So far as my experience goes, I have heard of a nmnber of cases, within twelve months, where fathers have deserted their families from abso- lute poverty. Workmen, unable to work, rather leave them on the parish than remain with them when they are not able to give them relief. But I could not point out a case in my district. 921. If you were able to take a deserted woman and her children into the workhouse, do you think it sufficient ; do you tlilnk that a test ? — We don't take in any to the workhouse, if we can keep them out, because it is more expensive. They have an idea that the workhouse is degrading ; but, after they have been a year in, we cannot get them out ; and we wish to keep it as the last resort. The poorer classes think that the lowest step, and we wish them still to believe so. In a case where we have taken them into the workhouse, we have the greatest difficulty in getting them out again ; and we rather give a widow and children something that would nearly keep them out, than take them in. 922. The friends and relations of the paupers are allowed to bring in articles to them, except spirituous liquors and beer ? — There is no law prohibiting them. What you state as a prohibition is the case. No liquors are allowed. All parties coming in, if there is suspicion, are searched ; but in general that is not practised, as we are not aware of any practice of introducing spirituous liquors. 923. There are certain stated days when they are allowed to leave the workhouse ? — Once a fortnight. 924. Independently of attending public worship ? — Yes, wc \vish them all to go to the parish church, where the children go, because there is a person from the workhouse taking charge of them. But those who are dissenters, or professed dissenters, we allow them to go to their own places of worship. But we sometimes have found that they have taken the name of dissenters, that they might get away, not to attend church, but to see their friends. 925. Are you aware that there are no stated days on which able-bodied persons, in the English workliouses, are allowed to go out? Do you not think that a restriction in going out would make a great deal' of difference with respect to the jJeasure of being in ? — We have found that a very difficult thing to regulate. At one time they had two leave-days a week ; and when there was a trifling occasion, they went out. We foimd some of them begging when out. We thought it better to restrict the number of days. By doing so, we found it gave a great dissatisfaction ; but stlU we pei-sevcred, thinking it a good measure. It has proved so. None of them beg at present, so far as we know. I think our workhouse differs, in comparison with other establishments in town, from the small number of leave-days allowed from the workhouse. 926. Do you think you could argue, from the effect of a workhouse, without strict regulations, to one with strict regulations, — say, with respect to the mothers of illegiti- mate children, and deserted women ? — I shoultl not hke to take in the mothers of natural children into the workhouse. They are in such a situation, that you never get relieved from POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 43 them. I don't know how that would do at all. If you kept them in — did not give them Examinations. the liberty days of others, it would have a very ill effect on them. I cannot say how that measure would work. _ _ ^^^j^^';'.^^ [^^3?- 927. Are you aware, that in the greater number of English unions, no relief is given to the mothers of an illegitimate child, unless she and her children are in the workhouse ? — I am. All orjjhans are taken into the workhouse. If young, they are sent to niu-se and educate. 928. Does that part of your system 'work weU? — I don't know any better we could adopt ; and, so far as I see, it works the best of any thing we could propose. 929. If a person, who has no settlement in your parish, applies for relief, how do you deal with the case ? — If there is a settlement in another parish, and it appears clear that we can at once point to the settlement, we give them a little money, which Ave call pass-money. If they belong to any neighbouring parish, such as Liberton, we tell them such is their parish, and to go there and apply. But if their paiish is doubtful, we profess to take them up, and give temporary relief. But, in practice, we try to shove them off as much as we can. 930. Do you give pass-money to a pauper without communicating to the parish to which the paujjer belongs ? — Yes. If the pauj)er belongs to Dundee, they give him a pass to Dundee. By showing this, he gets aid to proceed from intervening parishes ; and they never require his parish to return that money. 931. How much would you give by way of pass-money ? — Sixpence is what we ^vetothe next parish. 932. What would the next parish give ? — Possibly the same. Every parish here had a system of its own ; giving sixpence, or what they thouglit best ; but we found it inexpedient, and had a meeting of the workhouse managers here. We tried the arrangement of giving for the three establishments ; and then, at the end of the year, to divide the expense. We proposed to try it for a time, but we stuck it ; and each does the best it can. We generally give sixpence. 933. Might it not appear clear to you, from the statement of the pauper, that he was chargeable on Dundee ; and yet, that circumstances might be witliheld, which might show the hardship of his being thrown on that to^vn ? — It is not necessary to correspond with Dundee. It is better to give sixpence than incur the trouble of fixing his settlement. 934. You give him a written pass ? — A pass, with the name of the individual, bearing, in general, that he is a native, or has a parish right on so and so, and requesting any parish through which he may pass to his settlement to relieve him. The form is something import- ing that. 935. But that gives a party no right ? — I cannot say it gives any right ; but it is the mode in which we do the business. 936. It is just a certificate ? — It is just a certificate. 937. But, practically — I do not mean legally — does it secure him aid in passing from one parish to another? — Yes, practically, they would get some maintenance on the road, but a very scanty one. 938. You used an expression, in speaking of the proceedings about non-resident paupers. You said you acted on the principle of giving relief; but, generally, in practice, you tried to shove them off. What do you mean by shoving them off? — We, as parishes, here profess to provide for those who are destitute m our parish. But, if we can possibly do it, we point out the parish on wliich the pauper has a claim, and we give him a pass to it. 939. Then, do you give him one of those papers, and shove him off in that way ? — If, by his own account of liimself, we think that so and so is his parish, then we give him a pass to it. 940. Are you in the way of giving passes for people travelling from one part of the country to the other, when they say they are in quest of work? — No. 941. For example, a person in Edinbm-gh says he hears of work elsewhere ; if he were appearing before a magistrate or a manager, would you give him a pass that he might be free to go tliither ? — No. We don't hold that the expense is to be borne to the place where work may be got. But we do practise what you say. There are a great many who are going for work to different quarters, and they apply to the workhouse. We sometimes give them a httle, not that we have an idea that we are bovmd to relieve them, but, that m a time of distress, it is well to do something for them. 942. For the able-bodied ?— The able-bodied. 943. People are coming more from Dundee than from any other place, to country parishes in the north. The magistrates of Dundee seem to have given out passes very largely ? — In a number of cases we have made a claim on the magistrates of Dundee, and never got a satisfactory reply ; but, as we had not gone a great length in the matter of relief, we allowed the thing to drop. 944. You have been speaking, latterly, of the able-bodied. Did you relieve able-bodied people from Dundee ? — Yes ; not on account of right, but from the distress of the times ; not that we admitted that they had a claim on us, but that we thought it better to grant a little rehef. We gave to those having passes from the magistrates of Dundee, and wrote to Dun- dee for the amount so given, but never received it. 945. With respect to the passing of persons to the place of settlement, do you consider that the system has not a tendency to promote vagrancy? — ^I don't know that we ever took that matter into consideration. We found the same party come back upon us in a month. But, in that case, we always pointed out that we had relieved them at such and such a tune, and sent them off. But, unless that be taken notice of, they impose upon the parishes. 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr John Gray. 4 March 184S. 946. My question is, not wdth respect to their coming to your particular parish, but whe- ther the system of passes leads to vagrancy ? — It may have that tendency ; but I don't think we ever thought it worth our while to take it into consideration, the amount of all passes, granted per year, being about 71. 947. The pass is dated? — Yes; it describes the place of supposed settlement,' and the name of the person. 948. Then, if he apply to a place not on the road to the place mentioned in the pass, they know that he is attempting an imposition ? — K he were to apply to a parish not on the tlirect road, I think they would not relieve him. 949. Have you reason to believe that there is much begging in Edinbiu-gh, in spite of the police ? — Begging, within these two years, is increased tenfold. I am situate, myself, in the suburbs, and I don't know whether they do not call four or five times eveiy day. 950. If detected, they would be liable to apprehension by the police? — Yes; and I stated that ; but they say they would be glad to be talcen up by any person. They are fi'om all countries. Their provincial talk points out to ■what places they belong. I find them fix)m England, from Ireland, from the north of Scotland, and from other parishes and towns around. There is a goodly number from England of late — young men, from 24 to 44, pos- sibly begging, with cards, some stating themselves as of different trades, some cotton-spinners, and the like. 951. They are principally from the manufacturing districts? — Yes; I suspect they are taking advantage of the times ; they do it in a knowing way. But the poor, really destitute, have no sort of manly appearance about them ; they are broken down, and their poverty is apparent. 952. Have you reason to believe that there is much begging among paupers ? — There are a great many who beg. 953. Some of them eke out a subsistence by begging ? — ^A great many. 954. When detected, are they punished ? — When detected, the police have brought them to the establishment, which is A\Tlling to open its doors to receive them as permanent inmates ; but they have in general declined that ; and when they did come in, they were in many cases incUned to run away. 955. Do you think begging profitable in Edinburgh ? — I am not very sure ; but I have heard some say, that they could make 10s. per week. I rather tliink it is on the decline, from the numbers employed in begging. 956. Then those parties on the roll who are tlriven to begging, are driven to that by destitution, or partly foUow it as a trade ? — Partly both. I cannot think that a great many men, whom I see begging, have taken it up from choice, but that they have done so from absolute destitution. 957. I am speaking of those in receipt of parochial relief? — Partly both. I consider the pittance ^ven them, imless they have some other means of getting funds, inadequate for their support ; and those who are at liberty, make it up by begging, and would rather beg than be shut vip in the workhouse. 958. Tlien the small rate of allowance has a certain effect in promoting begging ? — I think it has ; but not to the extent that is supposed. Some of the parties are of a character which, give them double, and they would beg still. They are given to dissipation and bad habits ; and people with those habits would go through any quantity of money. 959. But do you think there is any unwillingness in the police to tiike up persons begging, or in parties to complain to the police ? — ^1 think the police would take up readily enough — especially if a party complained. But I think the feeling in my neighbom^iood is, that such is the want of employment, that there is a backwardness to complain. 960. But, apart from tliis, is it the gencnd feeling to denounce aU begging? — About three years ago there was such a feeling. 961. Do you think the abandonment of the society for putting do'mi begging has increased it ? — I don't think it. The night refuge supplies lodging to the destitute people travelling through the to^vn. I cannot say whether the abandonment of the society referred to is tlie means of increasing beggars or not. I tliink the police do that duty better than the society refen-cd to. 962. While that society existed, were not the police more active in taking up beggars? — Very much so. The activity of the police and of the public has fallen oft' according to the feeUng of the times, and the pressure of distress. If the people begging in Edinburgh were taken up, they would fill the jail twice ; and what could they do ^vith them ? 963. Have you reason to believe that, besides street begging, there is cidling on private individuals ? — Yes ; there is much of that. 964. Is there much begging in the streets? — ^Yes, there is a great deal of that. You see working men apply for chiuity ; and if you were to walk aU thi'ough Edinburgh, in a general way, you would have three or four applications. 965. That is within the last three vears ? — Within the last two. 966. Previously it was not so? — I^o, I don't remember people of the same stout appear- ance applying for charity. 967. Do you think the poor beg'much from each other? — I think tliey beg most from the poor ; as in the poorer places of the city, begging is most abundant. 968. Is there a feeling among the poor to denounce beggars to the police ? — I never no- ticed it so much among them as amongst the higher classes. 969. Do you consider the knowledge of the sniallness of the allowance has a tendency to cherish that feeling among the poor — making them unwilling to denoimce their neighbour* who beg ? — ^I am not sure, but I think so. POOR LAW mQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 45 970. "What do you say of the law of settlement ? — ^I think the law of settlement should be extended, at all events, to seven years ; for I don't see the propriety of a settlement after the parties are sixty years of age; for they never benefit the parish after that time of life ; and it is too bad that they should be saddled on a parish which has not had their labour. 971. Are there any other points on which amendments coidd be suggested ? — ^The law about the able-bodied imemploycd has stmck me very often. I never was able to form any decision in my o^^-n mind how it could be managed ; but I am come to believe that they should be cared for. But the great ban-ier to my mind is, how to care for them without encouraging pauperism, or those habits which would unfit people to provide for themselves. It strikes me that there are many — and I know many of the working-classes (I was a manufacturer for twenty-five years), for whom I feel very much — that are as virtuous in principle as I am, and deserving to be cared for. It is for want of work that they are not able to do. I know a great many who are as desirous to do what is right — and I know a great many as willing to work for their bread as I was, and who ^vi'ought for it up to the time they could find no more employment; and they tried to find employment in the most Ukely places as it occurred to them, and have been defeated ; and in this case, I think in my own mind, what could I do if I were so placed — if I could get no relief by my own exertions — in that case I would be as helpless as the aged, who are unable to work. I could come to no other decision than tliis, that they ought for the time being to be supported at least. But how that could be accomplished, without inducing a disposition to be less careful, I never could make up my mind. Any experience I have had, when a jiarty was taken up by a public institution, led me to the conclusion, that they began to form the idea tliat they had a right to that support, and that there would not be that anxiety for support by themselves which ought to exist, should any legal provision be made for them. And that is just the point I never was able to make clear to my own mind. 972. But if it were possible to give them a provision to save them from starvation, ^et still to do it in such a way as to make their condition no object of desire, would not what you are seeking for be found? — I tliink, by congregating them together, one hardens another. That is the last resort wliich should be fixed, as that pauperizes and destroys the morals of the whole. If we had employment which could afford temporary sustenance, and if they would not work at it, then no person would feel anything about them. 973. Are you aware whether, where relief is given in England by means of workhouses, such efiects are produced ? — My small experience is confined to this workhouse, and that leads me to think that there are ; and that the individuals woidd rather be relieved from the burden of industry and activity ; and, I rather think, if such relief were increased, it woidd encourage that feeling to an extent I should fear to make trial of. 974. Are you judging from the present workhouse in which there are not strict regida^ tions with respect to confinement ? — I am judging from that, yet, though strictly regulated, if you congregate them together, they harden and encourage each other to have a heedless and lawless spfrit, which would fit them less than ever for active industry. 975. Do you know if that is the experience of England, or contrary to that experience? — I am very little conversant with the experience of England. All I am stating is from my own observation ; and from that I state that these are the results which I fear would fol- low. 976. Your wish would be to offer them work? — ^Yes, in some way. What I mean is, that I wish it would enter into the plans of our government, and those who are in power, to secure as much employment for the nation as they can ; so that the people should neither want bread nor work. 977. You don't mean that the parish should get work? — Yes, that is what I mean. The parish can't find work. We have great difficulty in finding work. What we give to one we are taking fi'om others ; and wages are reduced to notliing. If there were double work, there woidd not be occasion for close competition. 978. You don't refer to giving work as a test of destitution, or, generallj'-, for the employ- ment of the people ? — ^All the plans we can devise for those who are out of employment are ineffectual. All have evils attending, and providing for them in that way prevents them from providing for themselves. If work were abundant, as it was three years ago, it Avould be much better for them than all the charity which could be bestowed. 979. Wliat I understand you to say is, that what ought to be done, is that work should be obtained for them ? — What I mean is, that their finding work for themselves is better tlian finding work for them by the parish. 980. When you speak of finding work, you mean finding work for themselves ? — In so far as that can be fouud by themselves ; but as that cannot be found at present, there is no other way of doing but assessing each pai'ish to support their o^\'n unemi^loyed. Examinations. Mr John Gray. 4 March 1843. Mr Gray subsequently gave in a list, showing the names, ages, and places of birth of 106 paupers, who, after ages varying fi-om 60 to 85 years, came into the parish of St Cuthbert's or West Church, and after three years' residence therein, acquired a settlement, and who appear on the poor's roll, receiving parochial aid, as per Manager's Ninth Report, August 1842. [Here follow the names.] A seven years' residence would have prevented 54 of the above 106 from becoming a bur- den on St Cuthbert's parish ; and, of coiu^c, a settlement by birth would have prevented the whole. 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAEI:N BEFOEE THE Examinations. I. Number of paupers who came into the parish after 60 years of age, as per Manager's Mr John Gray. 4 March 1843. Report, August 1840, Increase in two years, as per Manager's Report, August 1842, As above, Whereof — n. From other parishes, 88 From Ireland, 11 From England, 6 From America, 1 m. From 60 to 70 years, 77 From 70 to 80 years, 26 From 80 to 90 years, 3 (Signed) 2, Ceaigee Terrace, Edinburgh, 1th March 1843 82 24 106 106 106 JOHN GRAY, One of the Managers of the Poor of the Parish of St Cuthbort's. Monday, 6th March 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Kev. Dr Gordon. 6 March 1843. Hev. Dr Gordon, Examined : — 981. You are one of the clergymen of Edinburgh? — Yes, I am minister of the High Chm-ch parish. 982. Have you occasion to visit the poor of your parish ? — ^Yes. 983. And, of course, you have observed in what situation these persons are who get re- lief from the charity workhouse ? — Yes, frequently. 984. Be good enough to tell us, in what situation the outdoor pensioners in your parish are, in point of comfort ? — Generally speaking, indeed almost without exception, in a very Eoor state. The allowance made to them by the charity workhouse, is very far indeed elow anytliing like a decent subsistence; or, in fact, I would say, that the allowance generally made, is not sufficient to keep them in existence at the lowest possible rate of bving. 985. Do any of them subsist partly on other means — means raised from other sources be- longing to themselves ? — Some of them are able to do a little work ; but, generally speaking, it is by private charity that that aliment is supplemented or iiicreased. 986. Have you had occasion to observe any of them having other means of subsistence by work, or deriving aid from the charity of neighboiu*s ? — I know many of them who are not able to do anything for themselves ; but, I cannot conceive that they subsist entirely on the allowance of the charity workhouse. I do not think it possible that they can do so. 987. Have you any other observations to make in regard to the state of those persons who are on the list of the charity workliouse, excepting what you have already stated ? — Nothing in regard to their circumstances. I am satisfied, that the smaUness of the allowance made to them from pubHc charity is one of the means of increasing and propagating all those bad habits which extreme destitution creates, — that is, begging, and using all sorts of arts in order to extort charity from the benevolent. 988. Has the nmnber been increasing or diminishing in your parish for the last two or three years ? — I am not sure that I can answer that question in a satisfactory way — the poor population are so very fluctuating ; and I have never been officially connected ^nth the charity workhouse ; the duty, in reference to it, has always been taken off me by my elders. I have never looked much into the statistics of the question, — not more than as bearing on the general moral aspect of the poor. 989. You have had occasion to obgerve the poor — the laboiuring classes who are not the objects of parochial relief? — Yes. i POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 47 990. What is their situation ? — Their present situation ia very bad indeed. The well- Examinations. behaved class of labourers, in ordinaiy tunes, are tolerably well off. I should say that, in ;- ordinary times, among tradesmen there is occasionally stagnation in their trade, which ^f\i^']?i843°' throws a number of them idle ; but I know a great many who have made provision for that, by saving something when their wages were better. Of course, there is a gi'eat nmnber to whom that remark does not apply. 991. Do you think that intempei-ance has much effect on your parish in creating destitu- tion among the lower orders ? — No doubt it has. On the other hand, I think also, that ex- treme destitution has greatly increased intemperance. I tliink, the two have acted and re-acted very much. I may say, that I refer cluefly to female intemperance. When a poor woman and her children are left by a careless husband, she becomes destitute and recldess, and falls into the vice of intemperance. 992. Are you aware, whether there is any provision made by the parish authorities for the education of the children of those persons who are on the parish roll ? — The parish work- house educates all the chikken taken into the charity workhouse ; but I am not siu-e whether they allow anything for the education of the children of outdoor pensioners. But this is rendered now, in some measure, unnecessary, by the establishment of the Heriot schools, which embrace the gi'eater portion of the poor within the royalty — they are entirely free. The benefit, in the first instance, is confined to burgesses' children ; but they do not nearly fill the schools, and any poor children are freely admitted. 993. What is the state of education among the labouring classes not on the parish roll ? — I think, upon the whole, that it has lately improved, especially in consequence of the Heriot schools. 994. Do they spring from Heriot's Hospital? — Yes. Previously to the time of their being established, I fornid, very often, claildren whose parents were willing to send them to school, but were not able ; but I have had no diflSculty in getting my session to find ways and means to send all of them to school. I believe I could say, that there is not a child in my parish that I could not get sent to school. I do not mean to say, however, that all the children ai'e at school, for many parents do not avail themselves of the privilege. I ought to add, that I do not consider the High Church parish to be one of the very worst in the city — there are others in a much lower state of morals and destitution. 995. If you have any other observations in regard to the improvement and condition of the poor, be kind enough to state them? — I do not know that I have, imless that it woiUd be well if some means were had recourse to for increasing the allowance made to them from the pubUc fund of charity ; I mean, the parochial fvmd. I am strongly of opinion, that in Edinburgh the management of the poor being taken from kirk-sessions and put into the hands of a board, has been injurious rather than otherwise. I believe things might be in a much better state, if the management of the poor had been in Edinburgh somewhat in the same state as in country parishes. I have been long impressed Avith that conviction. The distri- bution of public charity has been totally separated in Edinburgh from anjrthing like moral influence. If elders visit the jwor, they know they have notliing in their power by which to increase their temporal comfort. They have, therefore, less encouragement to go among tliem. I feel that if I went into the poor districts of my parish without money in my ix)cket, I might as well stay at home. The elders do not visit so much as they might do on this account ; this they acknowledge. I have little more to add, except that if they had gone among the poor in their spiritual capacity, and at the same time as pei'sons who had the management of a poor's fund, the two combined would have had a totally difierent effect among them ; I mean for their good. 996. Are you aware whether much of the allowance given by the charity workhouse to the poor is spent in intemperance, or whether it is kept entirely for subsistence by those who receive it ? — I have no doubt that a great deal of it is spent in intemperance amongst the degraded classes of the people. There are a great many decent people who use their small pittance entirely for the purpose for which it is intended. But there are many in that degraded state that they spend every thing they can on spuituous liquors. 997. Do you consider that the piinciple of the Scotch provision for the poor should be a sufficient source of maintenance for them without other assistance, or, in other words, shoidd the allowance given them from the charity workhouse be of that amount so as to be a suffi- cient maintenance for them ? — No ; I thmk that other circumstances should be taken into accoimt. It is not desirable that they should get a comfortable subsistence ; but every individual should have a suflScient subsistence when it is fotind that they cannot get it any where else. 998. Do you think there is no risk, by throwing them more upon charity, and less on their own resoiu-ces, of deteriorating theii" habits? — There would, if the management of the poor fund is committed to a charity totally separate from the office-bearers of the chmx;h ; but this would be checked a good deal, if the poor fund was in the hands of a body of men, who, the people were aware, are watching strictly over their morals ; so that their moral character woidd be taken into account in the allowance made to them. 999. In regard to the moral effect of the visit of an office-bearer on the poor of the parish, would it be greater or less if no pecuniary consideration intervened ? — I think it would be less. I am quite aware that I differ in this from some very eminent men. But as human nature ia constituted, I am quite satisfied, that but for some pecuniary assistance which I am occasionally able to give from the charity of benevolent persons, my moral influence among the people woidd be much less. 1000. You suppose that the influence is greater when pecuniary considerations intervene, and Icsa when it does not ? — I have no doubt of it. I have to deal with persons who are in 48 MINUTES OF E\TDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinatiuns. Eev. Dr Gordon. 6 March 1843. the very lowest state of society ; and I cannot suppose that they will be open to the purest and highest motives. 1001. You have stated, that in the case of the poor in receipt of parochial relief, the . allowance is supplemented generally by private charity ; do you find, in fact, that the piivate allowance from individuals, together with parish allowance, is sufficient to keep them de- cently ? — Scarcely ; and a great deal of that private charity is extorted by means of fraud and impostiu-e, and various other tricks and shifts to which poor people are diiven. 1002. The giving a small allowance to the people does not increase a spirit of independence among them ? — No ; but compels them to have recourse to all kinds of arts to eke out the parocliial allowance. Those who have no other means of subsistence are obliged to have recom'se to arts ; and, if they are degraded in character, it sinks them still deei^er. There are others who apply to families whom they have sei-ved ; and they sometimes contrive to conceal their wants from others by getting assistance in this way ; but a vaat niunber of them use all the arts they can think of to extort charity. 1003. Is it the practice of the poor to support their aged parents ? — ^Whenever you find persons who have not lost a sense of self-respect, you will always find them entertaining great respect for their parents, and a disposition to aid them as far as they possibly can ; but I am sorry to say, that that feeling is considerably broken do\\-n from destitution. 1004. Then destitution does not tend to promote the feeling of affection among them ? — No ; it renders them callous and reckless even in regard to themselves, personally. 1005. Is there much begging by the poor among each other ? — A great deal of charity passes among the lower orders, from one to another, in cases of extremity ; but that is when some peculiar circumstances occur to an individual ; and, although it may exist for a time, it cannot be permanent. 1006. But do they beg from each other? — ^No ; I do not think that there is much of that. People who live in the same common stair, perhaps twenty or thuly of them, if any of them fall into extreme destitution from temporary causes, I believe they meet with a great deal of sympathy by the people in the same stair. I have kno'\^Ti many cases of this kind. 1007. Do you see much of able-bodied persons among the poor who are not entitled to parocliial relief? — Yes ; but only at times like the present, when there is a general stagna- tion of business. Every winter we have a considerable number of able-bodied men who have no employment. Of these there are two classes, — those who have made provision for this state of things, such as masons and house carpenters ; others, who make no provision, and go about begging in every quarter. The number of those who make provision for the e\il day, is, I am sorry to say, rather diminisliing. 1008. You think the able-bodied, as a class, are generally provident ? — Yes ; to a consi- derable extent, in ordinary circumstances. 1009. And those who are provident, generally put money in savings-banks ? — Yes ; or in friendly societies ; but the savings-banks are taking it almost away from friendly societies, in consequence, I believe, of the latter having frequently failed. 1010. Your opinion then is, that, under ordinary cii'cumstances, the able-bodied are toler- ably well off? — I would say so. 1011. Except in times of great distress? — Yes; I believe there are himdreds of them at present even in this city, where manufactures are not general, who are in a state of stai-vation. 1012. Plow are they maintained ? — By artificial means, during the time they are out of work ; such as collections in churches, and subscriptions from door to door. 1013. Have you reason to believe that these are persons who belonged to Edinburgh? — I imderstand that the reUef presently administered from this public subscription is confined to those who have been resident tliree years in Edinbm-gh, or who have an industrial resi- dence. 1014. Have you reason to believe that the'poor come to Edinburgh from countiy parishes for the purpose of gaining this relief? — Yes ; I have no doubt of it. Some of them are de- tected and refused. But I have no doubt that the idea of there being so many public chari- ties brings a great many people from the country to Edinburgh ; but that, in the long run, must cure itself, as the relief which they receive can only be temporary. 1015. You have no reason to believe that that is connected with the alleged insuflSciency of the allowances in country parishes ? — I do not know that it is ; but I can hardly answer that question. 1016. But you attribute their flocking here to the charities in Edinburgh, and the indefi- nite notions of maintenance which they may obtain here ? — Yes. 1017. You said that they were refused when detected ? — If they apply for rehef before they are tliree years resident, having in the meantune supported themselves, they are sent back to their own parishes ; and if they are provided for here in the meantime, the parishes repay what has been given to them to the charity workhouse. 1018. Do you think they are not aware of that? — Some of them, I dare say, are; others not. 1019. Do you think that the administration of charity, by the public charity workliouse, has a good moral effect on the people ? — I should think not ; I am inclined to the other opinion. 1020. It is your opinion that it is looked on as a matter of ordinary business, and that none of those feelings are excited between donor and receiver that would tend to give it a good moral effect ? — I am entu-ely and decidedly of that opinion. Not only is it a matter of mere business in their estimation, but a matter in regard to which feelings of dissatisfaction are frequently awakened, which must be injurious. 1021. And from what you have stated, as to the minister and kirk-session having in their POOE LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 49 hands the provision of their respective parishes, are you of opinion that, if the same ExainiuHtion ■. amount of funds were distributed by these parties, moral considerations being included, the 7- ])oor on tlie jjarish roll would be on the whole more favourably circumstanced ? — Uncpies- ''^g'^ MaiTh'lHj'i"" tionably. 1022. And while there may not be precisely the same purity, in the first instance, on the j)art of those receiving the visit of the clergyman and his elders, — tliose visits (implying also attention to their temporal concerns) would, on the whole, and in the end, improve the moral condition of the poor ? — Decidedly, that is my opinion, dealing with such people as I have formerly referred to in the lowest state of society. I have often gone into families, and seen tlieir children with the visible aj)pcaraiK!e of being near starvation. It « as in vain to speak to parents in this state of moral or religious suhjccts. I have sent for bread, and stood and seen them eat it. Without some relief, in the first instance, I had little chance of being heard and listened to. 1023. You believe that the residt of such a syatcn^ ^^ould, be good on the whole ? — My opinion is, that it certainly would. 1024. In alluding to the feeling of independence, — that feeling, you said, is not promoted by the small allowance which is given by ti;e board ; but if the poor peojjle of a parish were conscious that the eye of the minister and elders^ and other respectable persons were on them, and ready to supply their necessary wants, would not that feeling of independence be strongly cherished in this way, and turned to tlie best account ? — .In regard to the feeliiig of indepen-r dence, I do not suppose that it M'ould be directly strengthened, for charity in any form must weaken that principle; but it would be less injured by tliat means than by the other means. I mean, if they felt tliat they were allowed a greater or less degree of comfort in consequence of their moral oliaractcr, the effect directly on the moral character Avould be good. 1025. What I mean is this, — ,if a iiian were conscious that the eyes of respectable people were on him and his family — that these res])ectablc people were carefully observing the manner in whicli he was discharging his duties towards them, and wore ready to help lura in cases of necessity, but tliat still they required his own exertions ; midey these circumstances^ woidd not these exertions be much more powerfully stimulated than by the present mode of distributing charity ? — L^nquestionably. 1026. You n>entioned, in regard to wluoation, that, by means of Heriot'B schools, educa^ tion was within tlie reach of all classes, generally speaking ? — ^Yes. 1027. Are you aware if the n^anagers of the charity workhouse, in regard to those who liave outdoor relief, interest themselves particularly about the education of their children ? — I rather tliink that their attention to education is a great deal confined, to the children they take into the liouse. I have not licard of them sending the children of parents, alimented out of the liouse, to scliools. 1028. If yoiu' mode of administering charity, by the minister and kirk-session in each rct spective parish, were had recourse to, do you not think that, from their more frequent visits among tlic poor people, education would be also, increased? — No doubt of it. 1029. Do you think there are difficulties in finding a suflficient number of elders to dist charge those duties ? — In many situations there would be difficidties. In, Edinburgh, for instance, tliere would be some difficulty ; and this leads to another subject connected witli it, — tlie increase of churches and kirk-sessions ; because the population has certainly overgi-owo the ordinary means. 1030. Would not a gi-eat deal depend on the activity of a clergyman P—rrA good deal, na doubt ; but his main support would be on liis elders and deacons. I have no doubt, that if the various kirk-ses.sions had all along been intrusted with the poor's funds, they would have long ago revived the order of deacons for the purposes of attending to the poor ; and I be-- licve that parishes then would have been in a better state than they are no\\'. 1031. Have you funds in yovu" own power, as clergyman, to administer to the poor? — None whatever, excej)t as the almoner of bene\'olent individuals. I do, not know how we could have gone on with some of our parishes, except from this. 1032. Yqu had a country parish ? Can you tell us the comparative state of tlie poor, as regards your country and town parish ? — In the country parish every individual was in a state of comfort, oompared to the town. 1033. What was yoiu' parish ? — Kinfauns, in Perthshire. I should add, that it is hardly a parish by which to try others, as it is in perhaps the most favourable circumstances that a jiarish can be in. The })opulation is small ; and there was a fund of from 400/. to 500/., b&r isides the collection at the church door. The ccJlections at the church door, duiing my time, met all the demands of the poor. 1034. Is the sum you mention principal ?— Yes. 1035. And the interest of that is expended yearly ? — If it were needed, it would be so ; but the collections at the church door, when I was there, supplied all demands. It so liap- jjcned that a number of old paupers died then, and the fund accumiilated. The incst efficient way we Laid out funds in the country, was in a way that never is done here, by the elders watching individuals beginning to go do^vn in the woild, catching them on the verge of poverty, giving them aid in a quiet way, not putting them on the poor's roll. I hold this to be one of the chief advantages of the jjoor's fund being under the management of kirk.. sessions, as directly tending to prevent pauj)erism. 1036. Did you know of any case of any one of your parish going from the parish to the cities to get better maintenance ? — No. 1037. How long ago is it since you were minister of that parish ?^Twenty-one years. 1038. In the rcpca^t of the General Assembly, it is stated that the highest rate of outdoor- relief was 51. 6s. yearly ; and the lowest rate, 4/. 2s. Have you reason to believe that that n "50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, was about the rate when you were in the parish of Kinfauns ? — I thmk it is very much the same. ^« March l^at-?"' 1039. Have you reason to believe that that is higher or lower than the rate of some of the unassessed parishes in Scotland ? — ^I believe it is higher than some of them. I have seen a report of some of them, in which the average state was very much lower indeed, particularly in some of the northern jjarishes. 1040. Taking the Avhole class of poor together, are you aware that the rate of the non- assessed parishes is II. 7s. ? — I see it in the rejjort you show me. 1041. Were there resident heritors in the parish of Kinfauns ? — Yes, that was one of the circumstances to which I siUuded, when, in answer to a foniaer question, I said that I did not see that there should be as much paid out of the poor funds as wholly to maintain the poor. 1042. In the case of a parish where there might be absentee heritors, you would not foimd on that in yom- experience in yom- parish ? — No. We were in the most favourable cir- cumstances that a j)arish could be in. 1043. You say that when the office-bearers in the church visit the poor, the poor think that their allowance depends, to a certain extent, on the good will of those office-bearers, — has not that a tendency to promote hypocrisy ? — ^No doubt of it, with certain characters ; but the condition of the people, where there is an active eldei-ship in the parish, is perfectly well known to one or otlier of the elders, and to their neighbours, and no hypocrisy could avail the poor in anything in ordinary circumstances. 1044. Might not hyj^ocrisy be promoted by ado])tlng certain religious opinions ? — I do not see that it would, on the principle I have stated, that the condition of the poor is well known, and that any degree of favouritism, on the part of the clergyman or elders, would expose itself; and the poor would soon find that it would have no bearing on the allowance to be made to them. 1045. Are the lists of those who receive assistance from the unassessed parishes made out and printed ? — I am not aware that they are. 1046. Is it kno^^Ti to the poor what allowance their neighbours are receiving ? — I believe it is — every body may know it. 1047. Supposing the system of working by kirk-sessions adopted in Edinburgh, do you think no difficulty would arise in working with the dissenters ?^I have no doubt there would ; and it would be a difficult thing to return to that system in the present state of things. 1048. In the parisli of Kinfauns, would a member of a dissenting church have been re- lieved, as well as a memljcr of the Establislied Chm'ch ? — Quite the same, — not the least difference. 1049. You mentioned that, from peculiar favourable circumstances in Kinfauns, it could not be regiU'ded as an average of country parishes ; but, from what you know of country j)arishes, is it your imj)ression that the poor, on the whole, are better provided for in country than in city parishes ? Are the circumstances of the one more or less comfortable than those of the other ? — I nmst say that from any impressions I have received, the poor are more comfortable in country parishes. 1050. And this does not arise from a larger allowance to the poor in country parishes, but from their better supervision ; or do you attribute it to the fact, that the diffi^rent classes of society are thoroughly known to each other ; and that, consequently, relief on the whole, is more judiciously administered in country parishes ? — Yes, I think that the moral influence of eldership, and the disposition of the better classes to support and assist those wlio are well-doing, is the main cause of the paupers in the country parishes being in a better con- dition than those in town ])arishes. 1051. Are you of opinion, that in large towns there can be the same assistance afforded by the upper classes to the poor as in country parishes ? — I do not thmk there can. It is quite impossible that the poor can be known to the wealthy classes of Edinburgh so weU as they are known to the heritors in country parishes. 1052. In si)caking of country parishes, do you include the higlilands ? — I am very little acquainted with the highlands. 1053. You speak of purely rural parishes in Scotland, and exclude the highlands ? — I ex- clude the highlands, from being almost totally imacquainted with the state of the highlandi^. 1054. So that the wealthier classes in the city being disunited from the poorer classes, if it were possible to establish kirk-sessions for the city, as adverted to, would not that be a connecting link between the wealthier and the lower classes, and bring in a more healthy state of things ?— Yes, many of tlie elders woukl be of the wealtliier classes. 1055. You say that it would be impracticable now, on account of dissent, to revert to the system you have adverted to ? — It would be a difficult matter ; there would be opposition made to it. 1056. Would not an addition to kirk-sessions presuppose an addition to clnn-ches ? — Kirk- sessions might be enlarged without additional churches ; but to make the system ^^■()rk as it would recjuirc to be, additional churches woidd be required. 1057. Even making allowance for the difficulties on account of dissent, you think that if kirk-sessions were established they would administer relief as well as it is now administered ? — I think so. 1058. Would not reverting to kirk-sessions in Edinburgh produce religious hostility on account of dissent ? — There would be opposition, j)crhaps, on the part of dissenters not hav- ing any management in the distribution of the funds. I am supposing always an assess- ment. I think the dissenters might object to their having no management in the distribution of the public funds for the poor. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 51 1050. "WTien you speak in regard to collections and kirk-scpsions in Edinburgh, you would suppose assessments continuing as at present, but to the management being changed ? — Yes. I fear that the question of assessment or no assessment is practically settled by necessity. 1060. Have you any experience of large towns, besides Edinburgh? — None. Examinations. Rev. Dr Gordon. 6 March 1843. Mr John Ihmter, Session-Clerk of Edinburgh, Examined : — Mr John Hunter. 1061. How long have you been in the situation of session-clerk of Canongate? — Six yeara past in December. 1062. State to us what the funds are in the parish of Canongate for the use of the poor, and the amount of them, for the last year? — The amount for the last year was llOOZ. 17s. 9id. 1063. What portion of the money is left at the disposal of the kirk-session? — Very little, except what we give in temporary relief. 1064. Is there any definite sum left at the disposal of the kirk-session ? — The whole fund ai-ising from the chm-ch-yard and the collections are at the disposal of the kirk- session — the biilance being always paid off every three months. 1065. Can you tell us, during the last year, the exact sum disposed of by the kirk- eession? — Had I known I was to be a.sked as to this, I could have stated the sum. 1066. To what description of poor is the relief given which is left at the disposal of the kirk-sc'ssion ? — It is given to persons going to apply to the charity workhouse. The charity workhouse has stated meetings once in the month, and the relief given by the elders is during the interim. 1067. Do you not relieve persons that are not relieved by the charity workhouse ? — Not unless in extreme cases, and then I have the power of sending them to the charity workhouse. 1068. Am I to understand that no money is given to any person that is not understood to have a claim on the charity workhouse ? — None, unless I can find out that they have no right in another parish. Then in extreme cases we relieve them. 1069. How many cases weekly do you relieve on an average? — Perhaps not one in a month. 1070. You stated that the funds arising from the church-yard and collections were at the disposal of the kirk-session for certain puiposes ; is it for giving relief occasionally ? — Yes, and for paying certain servants. I shoidd have stated, under their management, instead of at iJteir dwposal. 1071. Have they it in their power to give what relief they please? — Yes; it is never found fault with, even if it were the very week we have our meeting. 1072. But still it is relief, subject to the revision of the managers of the charity work- house ? — I do not know that it is. It is never challenged. A great deal of money was given away at one time. We were imposed on. 1073. What other expenditure have you under the kirk-session, besides the relief given to the poor? — Nothing, save any little expense on the church-yard; such as the men employed in the church-yard, and things that may be required for the men working there. 1074. Who pays the session-clerk ? — I am paid as kii'k-treasurer, not as session-clerk. 1075. Who pays the presbytery-clerk ?— The kirk-session, from these frmds. 1076. Are there any other tilings of that sort? — Yes; the synod-clerk and the beadles belonging to the presbytery ; and my ofiicer, the i)arisli-officer, he is paid 15/. from the ftmd. 1077. Who fixes the allowance? — The kirk-session. 1078. Have they power to increase or diminish the allowance ? — Yes. 1079. Who fixes the other allowance to the synod-clerk and presbytery-clerk? — That is of their own doing. 1080. Do they charge what they please ? — I do not know ; I do not know whether they increase or diminish the allowance. 1081. Have you known the sum paid to them changed ?— No, not in my time. 1082. Is tliere anything else 2)aid by the kirk-session ? — Not that I am aware of just HOW. Had I got queries sent me, I would have been prepared to answer you ; but I am not aware of anything else being paid. In regard to outdoor paupers of the charity work- house, we have 156 cases, and not an eighth of them originally belong to the Canongate. I have got all the returns, except twenty-four, of their residences, and where they belong to. 1083. Have you any suggestion that you wish to make to us, in regard to the manage- ment of the poor ? — My opinion is, that the time of residence should be much longer ; it should be changed from three to seven years, or even longer, and they should not be entitled to make a residence after a certain time of life. 1084. What age m oiJd you fix ? — I would fix about 60. I will go farther, that, in the case of any person disabled, they should not after that make a residence in the pai-ish. When farm-servants are disabled, the fanners put them away, and, there being no house in the parish for them, they come into Edinburgh and make a residence. 1085. Can you mention any cases of farm-servants coming in ? — No ; I have heard of cases ; but they never came under my own notice. 1086. Can you tell us of any of those you heard of? — I heard of one from Lasswade or Liberton. He got money to purchase a cow, and he came here afterwards to make a residence. 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaminations. Mr. John Hunter. 6 March ll!43. 1087. Do you mean liis master gave him money? — He was furnished -with a cow, and he came into Edinburgh with it. I have a case of a woman wiio went to tlic parish of Langhohn, and was twenty years out of our parisli, and they want to throw licr back upon us. 1088. Is it consistent with your knowledge that she had resided twenty yeai-s in the parish of Ivangholni ?^No ; I believe she has been going from place to place, — at least so says JMr Shaw, to whom I wrote in regard to this. I have written again, making fiirther inquiries, but he has not answered my letter. 108'J. Have any poor persons assigned to you a reason for coming to Edinburgh ? — I have had so many cases, that 1 do not know what they all assigned ; but I have had twenty or thirty at my own door at one time, who said they came to Edinburgh to make a livelihood of it. lO'JO. Do you think the reason of their coming is to obtain work, or to gain a settlement ? — Perhaps both. 1091. You cannot state any definite case? — No; but from my experience, I must say I have certainly met with such cases. i)r rUcairii. Dr Pitcaim, Session-Clerk of St George's Paiish, Examined ■: — 1092. Wliat office do you hold hi St George'e parish ? — Session-clerk. 1093. Tell ns what the funds are at the disjjosal of the kirk-scssion for behoof of the poor ? — We ha^e no fnnds at our disposal fui'thcr than what may arise as a siui)lus from the weekly collections. We made an an-angement with the charity workhofuse managers, which has been in operation now for three or four years, whereby we pay them the average of five years each qnartei- of the year. We became bound as a session to pay them that average ; and if any surplus arises beyond that average, it is at the disposal of the kirk-session. 1094. In what manner is that money disposed of by the kirk-scssion ?— Very generally for the relief of temporal want in urgent cases ; but more especiaUy for the ptu-pose of edu- cating the poor, and giving coals dming the inclement season. 1095. What may be the amoiuit of that fimd ? — About 70^ If I recollect well, that is the surplus that arose the y«ar ending 31st March 1842. 109('). Is any portion of it given to those supplied by the charity Avorkhouse ? — None what- ever, if we know it. We have found it most especially valuable in taking up children of parents who are out of employment, and carrying on tiie oducation temporally, until the parents again get work. 1097. Has there been a great demand on the fund of late? — Yes. 1098. How long has it been in the present situation ?— Four years, if I recollect rightly, or between four and five years. 1099. As far as your obser\ation goes, do you think the circumstances of the poorer classes are deteriorating ? — I think so. 1100. Do you think their moral habits are improved, or the reverse? — They are stationary, so far as I know ; but destitution has increased. 1101. Has intemjxirance increased? — I should rather be inclined to think that it has. 1102. Have you anything to suggest to us that might be useful for the management of the poor ? — I do not feel myself -qualified to give advice. For many years I was connected with the medical dispensaiy, and have seen a good deal of distr-ess. I beg to state, that during the year ending 3d December last, disease has been on the incrcase. 1103. Do yon tliiuk it woidd be possible for the poor to be managed by kirk-sessions ? — Most decidedly not. As kirk-sessions are constituted, I iiave all along been of opinion, that it is impossible that individuals walking in the better spheres of life could devote such an amount of time as would overtake the managomeirt of the poor. 1104. Could it be possible, by increasing the number of kirk-sessions, to .»ecom2>lish it? — I do not think it, unless pei'sons were got to become members who Irnd nothing else to do. Let a man be as willing as possible, his own professional avocations, and other calls made upon his time, render it impossible to overtake the -woric in the ■^^•ay tltat it ought to be done. 1105. Do you tlriirlv it would be desirable to increase the alhwance from the charity- workhouse to the poor? — Yes, I regard the allowance made to paupeiy as a perfect mockery, HOG. Do you think it would be proper to raise an additional assessment for that purpose? — I should thinli that in large towne it is necessary- 1107. I mean, woiild it be advisable to increase the assessment, so as to increase the al- lowance to the poor by the oharity workhouse ? — I would certaiidy ^ve the charity work- house as little as possible. 1108. How would you propose to do it? — By a board of mmiagement, or in some other way. I regard the charity workhoiise as a jrcrfect monster. It is of no use. I think that district boai-ds wcruld be better ; and almshouses, and houses of Teftige, in the most destitute localities of the city particidarly. 1109. In M'hat respect is the charity workhouse objectionable? — First, there is not exiffi- cient accommodation in it to maintain the poor that apply for entrance. There are many more applications for admission than they can possibly take. Anil, next, the fiinds jilaced at their disjjosal are inadequate to the wants of the poor of Edinburgh. I know that in all cases where it is necessary to make application to them individually, it is done with a great deal of labour and trouble ; and a 2)ersonjJ canvass of tlie managers is often necessary to POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 53 obtain alimeiit; and, after it has been obtjilned, I have known fiithers and mothers, with K.xamliiatiotin. families of eix, seven, and eight children, get about 4s. a month. — ; — - 1110. Woiild you advise that the allowance made to them should be of an amount suffi- .'^i.^^'l'^'i""^ cient for the supjwrt of the peojile who get it ? — So far as I liave conisidered the circum- stances, I would prefer any plan that would keep the poor within their own domicile. 1111. Then you woidd propose to raise the allowance? — Yes, so as to enable poor people, perhaps laid aside from sickness, or accident happening to them, to maintain their iiimilies decently. It is impossible for the charity workhouse, in its present circumstances, to main- tain them. 1112. You do not object so much to the raising of the assessment as to the constitution of the body having the management of the same P—Yea, th^ is it, I object to the constitution of the body. 1113. How woxdd you propose to construct ithe management ?—^That is a difficult ques- tion to answer. 1 think if there were district almshouses, or houses of refuge, where indivi- duals in want might be placed and maintained, each of them under a board of management, or some similar plan, it appears to rae that it would be advaatageou^. 1 1 14. ^7)u said that disease is increasing in Edinburgh ? — Yes. 1115. Do you attribute that to particidar circumstances? — There has been no epidemic in Edinburgli, since this increase, to any extent ; and I think it may be partly accounted for by destitution. lllfi. Do you know whether the number of fever cases in Edinburgh is^eater now than formerly ? — It is not so at the present year. 1117. In speiiking of disease being on tlie increase, you are speaking of other diseases than fcvers ? — Yes. 1118. What is the class of diseases on i\\e increase at this moment ?-^-I do not recollect. A statistical table was drawn up by the institution with which I am connected, which shows the thing exactly ; but I caEnot charge my memory with it at this moment- 1119. Have you reason to believe that any of the poor come to Edinburgh on account of the charities ? — I have no doubt as to this whatever ; and I have for many years thought so. 1120. "Do many of them come to gain a settlement here ?^ Yes; particularly Lishmen. 1121. Do many of them come from other jiarts of Scotland? — I do not know ; I cannot speak from experience in regard to this ; but I would say, that Irish 2>eople, in particidar, «omc here to establish a settlement. 1122. Do you know whether the number of Irish .coming here for the last three years has increased or decreased ? — I am given to understand that it has increased within the last three years. 1123. Do you know whether -the poor, on receipt of parocliial relief, are in the habit of begging from door to door ? — I have no doubt they do, although I do nqt know it personally — at least a large proportion of tliem do. It is a common thing to see the inhabitants them- selves of the charity workhouse, begging. I have asked the ^reason why they did so, and been answercfl, that they do so to obtain pence for buying tobacco, or whatever it may be. 1124. Have you reasan to believe that the dietary of the workhouse is insufficient? — ^I do not know indeed. I have often heard the people complain of it- I do not know what it is. 1125. Supposing it is sufficient to keep the inmates in health and strength, do you think they would have reason to comi)lain because they were not allowed tobiicco ? — If tliey do complain, they have no reason to do so, I tliiuk. A pau[>er, maintained at the public expense, has no right to expect to be supported in tobacco, or anything of tlie kind. 112G. Might you not expect that some inmates of the charity workhouse might complain of insufficient dietary to excite compassion, although the dietary was quite sufficient ? — Yes. 1127. You do not happen to know what it is ? — I do not. 1128. You state that it is sometimes necessary to canvass individual managers of the eharity workhause to obtain relief for poor persons ; has an individual manager the power of ordinary relief himself ? — No ; I meant merely that the canvassing was in order to excite his sympathy, 1129. The poM'cr of ordinary relief is vested in the board ?— Yes, or in a committee of the board ? 1130. But no one individual, of himself, lias the power of ordinary relief? — No, I pre- «ume not. 1131. Yon mentioned that, within the last year, 70i were given to extra poor within the bounds of St George's ; how did you ascertain deserving cases ?— From the personal know- ledge of the ciders reporting to the kirk-session generally. 1132. These elders have a particular district assigned to them in the parish ?— Yes ; they have all a district assigned to them. Two elders are attached to each district. 1133. Was it found to involve an amount of labour to get information of deserving cases? — ^No. A list was made out, after proper inquiry had been made, in 1841. That list will likely serve for three or four years, without any other alteration than striking out those who have died, and filling their places up with new names. 1134. Have you reason to believe that the education given to the children of poor parents, and the coals which have been served out, have been given according to the respective merits ©f the cases ? — Yes. 1135. Would it bo possible to apply the same roaehinery.to the management of pauperism generally ?— It woidd be very difficult indeed. 113fi. But it was applied thus far? — Yes, and is annually applied. 1137. But 3'our opinion is, that it would not do for the management of pauperism tlu-ougb- Si MINUTES OF E^^DENCE TAIvEX BEFORE THE Examinations. ])r Pitcairn. 6 March 1843. out tlie city ? — I fear not. It m oiJil require to l)e tlone by a different set of men altogether. Tlie labour is hard, and we could not expect gentlemen in buainess to assume tiiat labour. Key. J. Hunter. T7ie Rev. John Hunter, one of the Ministers of the Tron Church, Examined : — 1138. You are minister of one of the city chiu-ches in Edinburgh? — Yes ; minister of the Tron Church. 1139. You are in the habit of visiting the poor of your parish ? — Yes. 1140. Do you visit those poor who are not on the roll, receiving relief from the charity workhouse — outdoor pensioners ? — I visit the whole of my parishioners of all descriptions. 1141. Have you inquired into the amount of allowances they receive from the charity workhouse ? — Yes. 1142. Ho you consider the amount generally sufficient to maintain them ? — Certainly not. It is quite inadequate. 1143. Could they possibly exist on it unless they had other resources ? — Certainly not. 1144. Are voii aware of what the resources are on which they depend ? — Public begginij ; and I fear that it leads to lying and stealing, and imposition on the jiublic. 1145. Is it your opinion that the small allowance given by the charity workhouse degrades exceedingly the character of those receiving it ? — Certainly. 1146. And destroys their moral feelings? — Yes. 1147. You are aware that there are classes of outdoor pensioners — one, who arc supposed to have something to eke out their allowance ; anothei-, who are admitted to have no visible means of subsistence ? — Yes.* 1148. Then it is to that latter class that the observations you have made more particu- larly apply ? — Chiefly so. That latter class, in my parish, prevail to a veiy considerable extent. Except the resource they have in public begging, they have hardly any other mode of eking out the little money they have from the charity workhouse. At the same time, it is right to state, tliat my parish is one of the poorest in Edinburgh. There is hardly a parish in the city in which there is greater misery and poverty than in the Tron Church parish. 1149. The amount of allowances which such individuals receive from the charity work- house forms but a small portion of their subsistence ? — I shotdd certainly conceive it does ; and some of them are reduced to such a state as to be almost absolutely famished. I visited a part of my parish on Friday last, and in all the houses I found persons destitute of food, and completely destitute of fuel ; without an article of furniture ; without beds or bedding, the inmates lying on straw. I visited about fourteen houses, and this was the case in almost every house I was in. 1150. Were these persons on the roll of the charity workhouse?^ — I cannot say. I did not examine particularly, not having in view the present examination of the commissioners. Perhaj>s a considerable number of this class may be on the roll. Others might be recclvuig a pittance from another parish ; some from the West Church, others from the Canongate and country parishes; an(l others might not be receiving relief from any parish. 1151. What is the state of the labouring poor generally in your parish who are not re- duced to such circumstances as to require parochial aid? — It is generally ■\ery bad. As I stated before, it is one of the poorest parishes in Edinburgh; and a large portion of the labouring poor in it are unemployed. 1152. Are there many strangers among the number? — Yes; there is a very considerable number of those whom we call lodgers. There are lodging-houses in the parish; perhaps, in one small apartment, a dozen or fourteen persons may be crowded together. There is often a great deal of filth in such apartments. A policeman, who may not be supposed to be very delicate in nerves and feelings, fainted on visiting __one of these lodging-houses in con- sequence of the stench. 1153. Arc those lodgers generally Scotch, or from other countries? — A considerable num- ber of them are Irish. Some of them are Scotch. 1154. Do many strangers come to Edinburgh to get a settlement in Edinburgh, and get relief from the charity workhouse?— I do not think that many strangers from other parts of Scotland or from England; but I cannot say in regard to the Irish. It is very likely that a considerable number of them are in that situation. There is no case, however, to ^vhich I can ■-'' speak; indeed, the wretched pro\isIon made for them does not afford an inducement, except to those in a state of starvation, to think of having recourse to Edinburgh to get relief from the charity workhouse. 1155. AVhat state of education is there in the parish? — It has, of late, been considerably improved in my i)arish, partly from the circumstance, that I have sent to tlie Normal School on the Mound many of the children of the poor whose parents were not in circumstances to send them to sclux)!, and some arc educated at the Ileriot schools, by the institution of .which the poor are much better su])i)lled than formerly \\\i\\ education. Generally speak- ing, the poor are desirous to obtain education for their children, although, in some instances, I have found a good deal of difficulty in getting them to attend regidarly, their parents often keeping them away. But in the Heriot schools the result is different; for if the children do not attend regularly, after a second absence they are dismissed from the school. 11 of). Do you think the charge of the poor might be put under a more effectual system of management than that which exists In the charity workhouse? — I feel difficulty In an- swering the (piestion. I think a considerable degree of good would result, if a certain sum POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLiVND. 55 ■were put into the hands of the kirk-session for the occasional poor, with a view to keep them Examinations. from becoming regular paupers. If it were administered by the kirk-session, considerable Uunter advantage would result from it; but I doubt if the kirk-sessions would be of nnicli use in ,*M;h.',.), mx regard to the regular poor. A sum put into their hands for occasional relief, as I stated, would be attended with a good effect; but on the question, whether the management of regidar paupers could be advantageously undertaken by them, I entertain considerable doubts. 1157. Do you think the moral habits, as well as the physical condition of the poor, would be improved by their getting an allowance, such as they could possibly live upon, from the charity workhouse, or other charities? — I do. I am of opinion, that it woidd bo a great advantage if some means were taken to see that the money they received was applied to a proper object and purpose ; and, in large towns, through the assistance of the police, one miglit ascertain what individuals spent their money in intoxicating liquors, and have their allowance lessened in consequence. 1158. Do you think that part of the allowance they receive is appropriated to such im- proper purposes? — By some of them. Poverty is often caused by drunkenness, and it is also very frequently its effect. To many individuals in the state of famishing from want, wiio have no clothes, and no fuel, there is a temporary degree of heat produced by intoxi- cating liquors which leads them to have recourse to them; and afterwards they become necessary to them; and, what was originally caused by poverty, is afterwards productive of a greater measure of poverty. 1159. Have you had occasion to know whether that effect of poverty is prevalent among famil ies ? — Yes. 1160. You held a country parish before coming to Edinburgh? — Yes; the parish of Swin- ton, in Berwickshire. 1161. Was there an assessment for the poor in the parish? — Yes. 1162. "VVliat might be the comparative degree of the comfort of the poor in the country and the to^v^l parish? — In the one — the country parish — the poor were in as comfortable a state as could be wished; and, in the other, they are in as great a state of wretchedness as can be imagined. 1163. What might be the average amount of allowance to a pauper in the parish of Swin- ton while you were there, say to a man or woman, with five children? — In some instances they might receive fi'om 3s. 6d. to 4s. Id. a week; sometimes 2s. Gd. was given to a single individual; and it variecWccording to their jwwer of gaining a little for themselves by some degree of industry and exertion. 1164. You took into consideration, in modifying their aliment, their power to gain some- tliing for themselves? — Undoubtedly. 1165. And they lived in a state of comfort? — Yes, I may truly say that I had no idea of poverty till I visited a city parish. 1166. In Swinton the administration of the poor's fimds was under the management of the heritors and the kirk-session? — Yes. 1167. Have you any suggestions to make to us in regard to the poor? — I had not time to pay attention to the subject; but, shortly before coming here, I noted down a general state- ment of the condition of the poor in the parish; I shall glance over it to see whether there is anything that I have not yet stated. 1168. First, in reference to the jiersons you visited where so much misery and destitu- tion prevailed, were they persons of good character? — Some of them were persons of good character. 1169. Of the fourteen houses you visited, can you give us a general idea of the proportion of the persons who were of good character? — I have but a general impression; I would not say that the greater part of them were persons of good character; but I have no means of ascertaining the fact with accuracy. The inhabitants of the parish are not only changing every year, but a certain class of them, the lodgers, are changing every week. 1170. Would many of them have properly applied their allowance? — I behevethat not all of them would. 1171. You would have a larger allowance to the poor, and a stricter inspection? — Yes. 1172. Would it be right to trust the police with that inspection ? — I give no opinion on that point. I would state, in regard to individual charity, that when I am not able to ascertain the characters of those who apply for it, I have applied to the police for my own infonna- tion and satisfaction, and have generally received accurate accounts. 1173. IIow long is it since you left your country parish? — Ten years and a half. 1174. In the report of the General Assembly, it is stated tliat in the parish to wliich you belonged, the highest allowance is 6^. 16s., and the lowest 21. 12s., in the year. Have you reason to believe that that was the allowance when you was there : this would apply to 1835, 183(5, and 1837 ? — Yes ; I do not know any reason why there shoidd be any consider- able alteration. 1175. Have you reason to believe that that is a higher or lower rate than the general al- lowance in the unassessed county parishes of Scotland ? — I should suppose it is much higher. 1 have not had much experience, indeed, almost none, in regard to the unassessed parishes. 1176. You would say they are generally in a sound comfortable condition in the parish of Swinton ? — I woiJd say so ; and, in general, their moral character is much superior to that of the poor in this city. 1177. Were there resident heritors in that parish? — One. 1178. In regard to the heritors and kirk-session, you found the system adopted by them of administering the funds, to work well ? — Yes. 56 MNUTES OF E^^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examiiifttioiis. 1179. You approve of that mode of administration? — Yes. The minister and ciders did ,, J .. not generally gi\e any positive opinion on the different cases brought before them. We 6 Mnrcii i«4;i. stated the facts, and left the heritors to judge of them. I might sometimes take the liberty of giving my opinion ; but the elders acted rather as witnesses to the condition of the poor, and in genend gave no opinion as to the extent of the allowance that should be given. 1180. Do you think it added to your moral influence not to be supposed to fix the ratea of allowance? — I think so. 1181. I would infer, that it is not your opinion that the minister and kirk-session fixing the allowance woidd add to the moral influence of the clergyman and his office-bearers on tiie i)eople ? — I am ratlier inclined to think so. At the same time, I woidd require a greater number of facts before inc before I could form a decided opinion on the subject. 1182. On what general reasoning do you foimd your opinion? — I do not state a positive opinion ; but, in the particular situation in which 1 was placed, I thought that the hentors, on the whole, acted fairly ; but still the people were occasionally dissatisfied witli some of their decisions ; and having a thorough conviction that their decisions were gcnenxUy good, I thought it better for me not to interfere farther than giving general testimony as to cha- racter and circumstances of the people. 1183. Do you tliink the mode of administering relief by the charity workhcwse is well calcidated to produce a good moral effect on the psirt of those receiving the allowance ; are they thankful for it ? — I do not think it. 118-1. Is there any mode by which it could be administered that would call forth the moral feelings of the ])arties into a happier tone ? — .There may be such a mode. We know that the money given to those verging on poverty, but not on the poor's roll, hjis a good effect. The names of tliose receiving money in this way in my parish in the country were never put down in any book whatcscr. The relief was given secretly; and thus their honest pride was cherished rather than suppressed, and a good effect produced. But it is very dif- ferent when their names are put on the poor's roll ; theii- feelings are not in the same con- dition. 1185. In regard to those on the pemianent roU, you do not think that they are grateful for what they get ? — I do not think they feel much gratitude. They consider that it is the bounden duty of the heritors and kirk-sessio», and the public, to see the poor supported ; and when they are in circumstances of poverty and cannot maintain themselves,, tlicy think it is their right to be so maintained. 1186. You meatioixed that tlie board ef the charity workhouae did not mudi concern themselves with the education of poor families ? — Yes. 1187. Take the case of'a poor family with some young children, and sujipose relief admi- nistered to them through the minister and kirk-session, and that in their visits they con- cerned themselves with the education of the children, seeing them at school, and manifested an interest in the welfixre of the family, would not that produce a happier effect th.an what arises from the usual mode of adaiinistering charity ? — I believe that tluit is what is done by the clergy ; they take an interest in tlie children, and see- that they receive every advantage of education ; and, I have no doubt, it is one of the ciirumstances that leads the people to consider tlieir clergj'man as tlieir friend. 1188. Would a good moral effect be pxjduced in, the cki^yraan taking an interest in the welfare of the children, without allowing pecuniary- considerations to interfere ? — Most cer- tainly, that is my own experience at this moment. In every family where there are yoimg diildren, I take moans to send tliem to school, the Nonn.d 8ehool, oi- lleriot's school ; and one of the chief advantages in ])arochial visitation, in a town like Edinburgh, where the parishionei"s are not our hearers, is getting their children sent to school. 1189. Do you think it a part of your duty to distribute money to then>?^ — I have no means of doing so, excejjt from my own resources. 1190. Is there no moiMiy at tlie disposal of your kirk-session ?-— None at aH. 1191. Are all the collections given over to tlie chaiity workhouse? — The wholes In re- galed to the case of those verging on jx)vcrty, but not i^Liced on th& poor's roll, I think it would be a considerable advantage if the minister and kirk-session had money to dLstribute among them ; as it might ultimately be the nieons of keeping tlifim from, becomiug paupers on the poor's roll. 1192. I suppose your meetings of heritors and kirk-session in the countiy were only lialf-yearly ? — Only Iwdf-ycarly. 1193. You then fixed the pcnnanent list ? — Yes, for the next half-year. 1194. And you yotu'self gave occasional relief ? — The kirk-sesskm gave occasional relief, — one-half of our collections ^vas given over for tlwit pmpose, and I never fouiul aay diffi- culty in getting what was necessary for the occasional relief the jioor rcquii'cd. 1195. >Vas it your practice to give reKef to unemployed able-bodied perstma? — Yes, occasionally. 11 9G. Was that given from money lefl to the kirk-session, or from the assessment ? — From our chiux-h collections and the private charity of the heritors. Wlien there was occa- sion for it, I nnvst say, to the credit of the heritors, there was always a sufficient sum put into our hands for the I'clicf of the j)oor, from whatever cause their povci'ty might arise. 1197. Even for the occasional relief of the able-bodied? — Yes. After a week or two, an unemployc*! al>k-botlietl man might, by getting into employment, be able to support him- self for the rest of the year. 1198. Have you seen much of tl»e able-bodied labourers in the town? — Yes; at the Kamc time I should state, that I have not" seen so nuich of thorn as I may be supposed to have seen, because 1 visit my parish iu the course of tlie- davy and those individuals, whca POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 67 they have no employment, are also out during the day in quest of it ; and I meet more with the females than the males in the course of my visitation. 1199. Can you form any opinion as to whether it would be advisable to allow relief to unemployed able-bodied persons ? — I am strongly inclined to think, that, in times of great depression of trade, some legal provision shoiUd be made for able-bodied men who cannot procure work, and who, consequently, arc unable to obtain the means of subsistence for themselves and their families. The subject is attended with considerable difficulty. There is a risk that, even in such circumstances, a legal provision may tend to cherish habits of im- providence, idleness, and want of active exertion to aid themselves. And in many instances It would be an extreme hardship to impose the whole burden of their maintenance, at a period of general stagnation of trade, upon the heritors of a manufacturing parish. Still, however, in a christian country the poor ought not to be left to stai-ve. Extreme destitu- tion generates disease, and is productive of almost every species of crime. Voluntary charity is precarious in its nature ; it may not reach the full exigencies of the case, and it may be delayed till a portion of those evils have taken place which it was designed to prevent. In any act passed by the legislatm-e relative to this subject, it would be extremely desirable that, in every possible case, able-bodied men should be compelled to give a portion of labour for the alms bestowed upon them, and that encouragement should be given to them to find out for tliemselves channels of industry and employment. 1200. If the mode of relief administered by the board of the charity workhouse does not produce good effects, is there any suggestion you can make farther than what you said about calling in the aid of the police, by which the application of this charity might be made more beneficial ? — I have not directed my mind particularly to the subject. I merely mention the police, not from thinking it the best mode, but from the circumstance that I have often obtained accurate infonnation from them as to the character of individuals. 1201. You may now state if you have any farther suggestions to make for the improve- ment of the efficiency of the system. [Here the witness read, from his notes, some obser- vations which are embodied in his evidence. He then alluded to working societies.] I may state that working societies arc intended for women. We have one of them in my parish, and they exist in many of the other parishes in Edinburgh under the superinten- dence of ladies. They give out a certain portion of work, and the women receive a small remuneration for it ; and, on a particular day, there is a sale of the work. Upwards of forty individuals in my parish, many of them unmarried, others widows, have received relief in this Avay, who would otherwise have been in circumstances of great destitution ; because, while means were taken for promoting the advantage of unemployed labourers, married men, and others, no means were taken for the support of destitute unmarried females and widows ; and these working societies have been of great benefit to them. 1202. What is the nature of the work performed by these females? — Chiefly articles fitted for the poor. 1203. Do you know whether the sums given to the females so employed are higher or lower than the average of the market rate of labour ? — I am inclined to think that it is rather lower — certainly not higher. 1204. If lower, do you think it a good arrangement for the independence of other workers? — There are difficulties connected with the subject. We of course in this are looking more to the immediate interest of our own parish. At this moment our difficulty is to get sales. We have sent out a pretty large box of the work to Jamaica, in charge of one of the missionaries, to be sold there. 1205. You have said that many of those in the receipt of relief have recourse to begging. Do you know whether they beg themselves, or are in the habit of making use of the children for that purpose ? — Both parents and children beg at the same time in different parts of the tOAvn. I have seen a Avoman in my parish begging in one part of the town, and her children in another. 120G. You would say that this has a bad effect on the rising generation? — Nothing can be worse ; for it accustoms them to every species of falsehood and imposition, and many of them ai'c thus trained to theft. You will find, if you examine the governors of prisons here, that a very large number of young persons in prison for theft have been constantly accustomed to street-begging. I have felt more grieved than I can express, to see young persons, ten and twelve years old, sent to prison for petty theft. 1207. Wiis street-begging got rid of some years ago, during the existence of the Society Examination!. KeT. J. Hunter. 6 March 1848. for the Suppression of Begging ? — Yes. Much good was done by it. -Yes, 1208. I)o these beggars go into the country, and beg there as well as in the to\\Tn ?- and are so importunate and troublesome as to become a public nuisance. 1209. A number of them go about with baskets, containing small wares for sale, without a license ? — Yes ; but many go about without anything. And women are in the habit of hiring out from other women, children, in order to extort compassion. Pubhc begging prevails to a great extent. 1210. Have you reason to believe that many of the class of persons to whom you allude become customers to the pawn-shop ? — Yes ; and this perhaps is the first circumstance of moral deterioration that takes place in the case of an individual who has been honest and industrious. He is out of employment for a few weeks, and is obhged to dispose of his Sunday's coat, and his wife of her gown. They come in this way to neglect religious ordinances, and disregard the Sabbath. Drunkenness follows; and this shows the great importance of placing in the hands of kirk-sessions, or some body of that kind, money to prevent such persons from becoming regular paupers. 1211. Unless that were done under strict regidations, woidd there not be some danger of 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Examinations. Eev, J. Hunter. 6 Marcli 1843. their becoming Improvident, knowing that they had the kirk-session to fall back upon ? — Of course, but it would rcmam for the kii-k-session to say whether they would give that relief or not. It would not be obligatory on them. 1212. Is it possible for any human being to know the various ways in which an individual may be improvident, and also careless ? — There is not a human being, I dare say, who is not less provident than he should have been. "Wlien we give, we do so with as much secrecy as possible. At Swinton, I very often gave relief to individuals, and did not keep a record of the names of the persons obtaining it, because the circumstance of their names being put down on the parish record would have been hm-tftil to their feelings, and probably might have deteriorated their characters. 1213. Suppose there was a ftmd of any sort In the hands of the kirk-session for that pur- Eose, do you not conceive, from the character of the Scotch people, that operatives woidd now of its existence ? — Yes, they would in all probability know its existence, still I am of opinion that it woidd be very advantageous. 1214. In order to jircvent any abuse of that kind, would not the condition under which it was given be of more importance than an attempt at secrecy of its existence ? — ^Yes ; I fear that secrecy as to the existence of such a fund is a thing unattainable. Anything that en- courages industry is valuable and important ; and, on that principle, I have recommended the working societies which have been attended with beneficial efifects in my own parish and others. 1215. You proposed, as one remedy, a close Inspection of the poor, in the application of the allowance received from charities. Whom would you propose as inspector ? — I have con- siderable difficulty in giving an answer to that question. Mr D. M'Donald. Mr Donald M' Donald, Collector of the Poor Kates for the City of Edinburgh, Examined : — 1216. You are collector of the poor's rates In Edinburgh ? — Yes. 1217. Sole coUector?— Yes. 1218. On what principle Is the rate Imposed? Is It by stent ? — ^It Is done by stent-mas- ters, on four-fifths of rack-rent. 1219. On heritable property? — Yes. 1220. Not more than four-fifths ? — Not more. 1221. Is it so much In the pound you levy? — Six per cent, has been le^aed for many years. 1222. Is It levied, fully from the owner, or partly from the owner and partly from the occupier ? — It is levied entu'ely from the occupiers. 1223. Is it under the general law of Scotland, or Is there any local act ? — Under the general law of Scotland. There is no local act. 1224. Is there any estimate made out at any period of the year of what may be required for the year to come ? — Yes, by the managers of the charity workhouse, and laid before the council. 1225. Have they always Imposed the rate equal to the demand of the" charity workliouse ? — I have understood not. At the same time, I speak from mere report, as this took place before I was appointed to the situation. 1226. How long have you been in the situation ? — Nearly six years. ' 1227. Has the rate of assessment been the same all that time ? — Yes, always the same. 1228. Has the extent of pauperism been the same? — In my official capacity I have no- thing to do with the management. My situation is connected with the collecting. 1229. What is the lowest amount of property from which you collect? — 5/. rent, that is to say, on a rent of bl., we charge at 4^. ; that Is the lowest scale. 1230. You deduct, of course, from all rents ? — Yes ; it Is done by the surveyors. If a house pays 20/. rent, they charge at the rate of 16Z. 1231. Has the amount of assessment kept very steady ? — Yes. Since I became collector it has rather increased than otherwise. 1232. What is the amount you collect? — About 9000/. on the average for each year. 1233. You do not collect from members of the College of Justice ? — -No. 1234. Have you made any calculation of what the addition would be, if you collected from them also ? — Yes. The first year I was in the situation, their property being stented for the government land-tax, as wcU as that of others, I reckoned It about a fifth of the total rental of the city within the royalty. 1235. The royalty includes nearly the whole of the new town? — It does. 1236. Do you find much difficulty in levying the rates? — No, not much, except what arises from poverty and misfortune — no other obstruction. I may mention, that tliree years successively, some of the rates have been arrested In the hands of the rate-payers by the banks, to which a considerable debt is due, and thereby much obstruction and inconvenience is caused. 1237. Have you not frequent occasion to smnmon parties ? — To a certain extent, not ex- ceeding 100 in any one year. 1238. How often do you pay over your money to the managers of the charity work- house ? — I pay twice a week into Sir William Forbes' bank. 1239. Has it ever occurred to you, that the funds were not sufficient to supply the de- mand ? — The two first years I was connected with the establishment there was a deficiency ; POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND: 59 and they were under the necessity of applying to the bank for an advance, to be defrayed from the next year's assessment. But this has not been the case for the last two or three years; 1240. You say you had occasion to summon about 100 ? — Not exceeding that. 1241. In what court do you summon them ? — The small debt court, if not ^bove 51. ; if above bl., I summon them in the sheriff court. 1242. Have you had recourse to poinding? — I never made a sale, excepting on one occa- sion, where a party chose to be extremely obstinate, and where I saw no reason to depart from my claim. 1243. Can you state the proportions of individuals excused ? — I am not able to name the number. I could easUy do it, but I have not data here to do it. 1244. Have the numbers been increasing or diminishing ? — Not much. 1245. You can give us the numbers ? — Yes. 1246. What is the actual rental for the last year on which you levied assessment ? — 171,000^. That Is the amount of rent or thereby. 1247. Six per cent, I understand, is levied on that 171,000Z. ? — Yes. The surveyors when they come to a house that Is rented at lOOZ., put down 80/. The assessment comes In this way into my books, 1248. This 171,000/. Is four-fifths ?— Yes, of real rent. 1249. You make one rate a year ? — One rate. If you take the rack rent, It Is somewhat under 5 per cent. On 100/. we charge 80/. The rate on that is 4/. 16s., which Is 48, under 5 per cent. 1250. Can you tell the number of rate-payers ? — ^I could easily tell them ; but, In roimd numbers, I may say they amoimt to about 6500. 1251. Have you any analysis of the classes between 5/. and under 10/., and under 20/. and 30/. ? — No analysis of that kind. I could make such an analysis, but it would require soipe labour, Examinations. Mr D. M'Donald. 6 March 1843. #0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 53 00 i 5 w o H 00 T— 1 W o t CO Jl « CO O 2 ^ ^ o o - :^ J o CD >o oo 1-H ■s a a .a s 1 ftCC c CO u E3 i (4 2 " " s- Defic Bank (N .-* -«*< CO (M .s a bo Po 1-H 1-H o § "p. a o C tc CO o Ph >< O a 11 SI o s > o s to p. •w C o Hi — ' to » " £ 2 puted, out of ich nothing paid. [Note 1.) ft t- 1— ( CO o CO CO CO oo ^o o O o o ID ^ O « S fl o 9 » ^•? ^^ CO O ^ ^ •1 «2 o o 1-H O 1-H I-l 2 S § EO 1 a •f'-as 00 '^ 1-H CO 1-H 1^ c8 .2 P. Pi ca . 05 o O o t^ a j3 -fa •g £ rt »3 a I-! l-H^ 5o 00 p2 3 'rt **.< o H O oi CO "V *o CO fe i » t^ 1—1 t- -e rt o ITS ^2; l?f >o >o CD o CD CD o 1—1 (M 14 t •«* t ■^ a> o I-H CO >* •^ 00 QO 00 T— < T-H 1-H o Q o 1-0 g ■Ha POOR LAW INQUIKY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 61 Tuesday, Itk March 1843. Examinatione. 7 March I84:<. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Henry Home Drummond, Eeq. M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Mr David Doud, lately Member of the Town Council, and one of the Managers of the Mr David Doud. Edinbm-gh Charity Workhouse, Examined : — 1252. You are one of the managers of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse at present ? — At present I am. This is my third year of management. 12,53. Are you one of the ordinary managers ? — No, I am not. I was excluded from the ordinary management soon after my appointment. 1254. By what ? — I did not give satisfaction to some of those who sent me there. I had voted for an increase of the treasurer's salary. 1255. You have paid considerable attention to the internal management? — To the admi- nistration of relief generally. 1256. Outdoor?— Yes. 1257. Has it ever occuired to you to consider whether the allowances usually given to the outdoor paupers are adequate or inadequate ? — Quite inadequate. 1258. Upon what principle is the relief administered? — In the Edinburgh Charity Work- house there are three modes of administering relief. There is a class of occasional jiaupers ; there are cases in which occasional assistance is given, called temporary relief. Another class consists of permanent paupers outdoors ; they are called pensioners. Then there are parties taken into the workliouse ; those who receive indoor relief are in a much better con- dition than those who receive outdoor relief. My object in becoming a charity workhouse manager was connected chiefly with cu'cumstances regarding the manner in which Catholic paupers were treated there ; and on that account I devoted more than usual attention to the operation of the system. 1259. Have you been in the habit of visiting paupers at their own houses? — Not latterly. I depended on the report of the overseer, and the information of the paupers coming to my own house. 1260. How did you satisfy yourself about the inadequacy of their allowance ? — Thus : — In the outdoor relief there is a sum of 2478Z. 6s. lid. applied to out-pensions, and the average among the whole was 11. 6s. per annum. 1261. For a whole family ? — For each individual, 11. 6s. 1262. Including children? — Including children. 1263. And how did that apply to persons who had no means of subsistence except what they got from the parish? — Why, 11. 6s. was the average to them ; 12s. 8d. the average to Catholic paupers. 1264. Was there any reason you are aware of for that distinction? — There is general national feeling, which certainly was found to operate there. 1265. Were they chiefly Irish ? — Almost exclusively. 1266. And were there many of them unfit for work of any kind? — Generally, the class of outdoor pensioners are either people who can do little or nothing for themselves, or who have some petty occupations. The males are occasionally employed, and the work they get en- ables them to make something. The females generally wash, or hawk small wares through the town, and many of them are absolute beggars. I have seen them on the street. 1267. Persons on the regular roU of poor? — On the regular roll. 1268. Is there any considerable proportion of them ?— I can form no conception as to that. ' But from the inadequacy of the rehef from the workhouse, and their inability to work or get work, they must beg. 1269. Have you any reason to know what are their habits with reference to sobriety or drunkenness in general ? — I should say that nearly one-half of those receiving relief from the charity workhouse are drunkards. Most of the destitution arises from that habit. 1270. I presume a great proportion of what they get from the parish is spent on intoxica- ting liquors ? — ^A great deal. The other day, when at the admission committee, and about to decide a case, I was told the party was not in attendance, having been sent to prison for getting drunk with the interim allowance made on the previous week. 1271. Are there any outdoor paupers supplied in kind? — In cases where the inspector states that the party is dissipated, an order is given on some shop, or on the porter of the department where relief is administered ; meal or other provisions are given in consequence of tliat order. 1272. Are any steps taken by the managers with regard to the childi-en of outdoor pau- 62 CANUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, pers — ^I mean as to education? — None, Tlie only children whose education is provided — ~" for, are those maintained in the house or sent to the country to nurse, 7'^.\ra*-oli i<)43 1273. Have you any statement of the rate of allowance for each individual? — ^It averages about one penny a day to each individual, including the family. 1274. Do they frequently complain of the inadequacy of the relief? — Oh, fi-equently. 1275. You have no reason of knowing how they subsist — what is their style of hving — whether they are drunkards ? — They don't get more than two meals a day. The overseer's report, and what I daily sec on the streets, satisfies me of the extent of drunkenness, 127(5. \VTiat description of food do they get^meal or potatoes ? — The poor are not so pro- vident as to take meal and potatoes. When they have money they take tea, herrings, and bread, rather than meal and potatoes. , 1277. You conceive the allowance inadequate? — Quite inadequate. And I sometimes plead their cause in the chai-ity workhouse, and get occasional donations for the regular out- door pensioners. 1278. Have you any means of knowing Avhat is the general state of their health — is it worse than that of the other population ? — Infinitely worse ; and there is scarcely a day we sit to administer relief, but two or three people make their appearance, who are just come from the Koyal Infirmary. 1279. Are there any means taken to afford medical assistance except in the house ?— None, except in the house. I once proposed a plan like that adopted in Glasgow, where medical assistance is ^ven ; but I met with no encouragement to persevere. 1280. A\'hen in bad health, they must fall on the medical charitable institutions? — Chiefly they must, and on the kindness of medical men ; Professor Alison in an especial manner. 1281. Do you conceive the present mode of administering relief, through the charity work- house, is an eligible mode, and useful for its purpose ? — The constitution, do you mean ? The constitution is the worst possible. 1282. Do the managers not take pains to investigate into the state of the poor?— No, they do not. They chiefly rely on the report of the inspector, 1283. But they sit as aboard when cases are decided on? — There is a set of general managers, 108 in number, sent up by different bodies, the town-council, the elders, and others. They appoint the ordinary managers. Then the admission committee is appointed for the administration of relief weekly ; and that committee is very ill attended. I never saw more than three there diu"ing the three years I was in attendance ; and, frequently, I was the only person sitting there. 1284. Is one manager competent to act, or is there a quorum ? — There is no quorum. They sit as a court, and administer relief. At least that is the doctrine I have held and acted upon ; though it has not been recognized in the workhouse. 1285. Have you heard complaints by the managers of the workhouse of the inadequacy of the sum raised by assessment on the town ?— The managers complain very frequently that the town-council don't give an adequate assessment. But, small as the assessment is, the managers always have a considerable surplus. They don't expend all they have the power of expending. 128(). I tliink you have stated it as your opinion, that a union of all the diflPerent bodies comprehended in Edinburgh and Leith, would be more eflScient than the present system ? — It would be a gi'eat blessing to the poor. It would put an end to the manner in which the poor are tortured, by the uncertainty of the parochial lines through the to'mi, and would save three-fourths of the expense of the management. 1287. Do you suppose that would tend to make the allowance more adequate for their sustenance ? — Now there is little difficulty in making adequate provision for the poor. In con- sequence of the decision which the Court of Session has lately pronounced. 1288. Don't you think It a very expensive mode? — It woiJd be expensive, but the fear of that would induce managers and admmistrators to be more liberal. 1289. But would It not be almost out of the power of an ordinary pauper, even with the advantage of suing as a pauper, to cany on a suit ? — Oh, no. There are many law-agents in Edinbiu-gh who would take up a case of that kind, more especially when they are sure, in the long run, of getting their professional expenses ; and, in point of fact, they have begun already to act upon it. An agent to-day informed me, that he had made an application for increased relief to a pauper, insisting on the managers acting in the spirit of that decision. 1290. I suppose you have no doubt that, as an oi'dinary tribunal, the Coiul; of Session is not the best suited for a thing of that sort— fixing allowances ? — It Is a great misfortune that parties have to go to the Coiut of Session. It does not sit the whole year. It is expensive. And I have advocated a greater latitude to the sheriflTs jurisdiction. Just now, the sheriff" has power to order the managers to take up a case. 1291. But would you allow the power of appeal from the sheriff" to the Covurt of Session? — No. 1292. Then, would there be no risk of a different understanding on the subject In ditfer- ent countries ? — I should think not. If the principle of adequate relief be laid doAvn as a general rule, there can be no difficulty at all. 1293. Have you any knowledge of the mode of administering relief in the other districts of Edinburgh — the West Church, or the Canongate, or Leith ? — Yes ; I am acquainted with them, of my own knowledge. 1294. Are the allowances In general higher or lower than in the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse ? — Leith Is more liberal. The Canongate cannot afford it. It would take the entire revenue of the parish to give adequate relief to the poor of that district. . 1295. Are you at all acquainted with coimties, or districts, from which paupers come? I POOR LAW INQUIRY COSBIISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 63 mean, do they belong chiefly to Edinburgli ? — Yes, I have made a statement on that sub- Examinations, ject. Taking the temporary aid, the outdoor relief, and the indoor relief, I have made up a comparative view of the birth-place of the parties. The Scottish counties are laid down in ^"^tP'^^'l '*"'"'• it ; and from Scotland altogether, the nvunber of those who receive temporary aid are 92 ; ' * ^"^ outdoor pensioners, 629 ; indoor relief, 366. Of the 629 out-pensionei's, 244 were born in Edinburgh. 1296. Is relief administered to the occasional poor who have not a legal settlement? — Since I came into the management I have insisted on that principle being adopted. Before that, they gave none till after tlu-ee years' residence. The consequence was, that pauperism increased in the town to a very great extent. 1297. In this publication of yours, there is a notice that all people are prohibited from applying except they have resided for three successive years in the city parish. That applies to temporary as well as pei-manent ? — Yes. It at first ajiplied to all. After I was a manager I advised a different mode of giving relief, 1298. You have no doubt that notice was acted on by the managers ?— Undoubtedly. I came in in 1841. 1299. When was that new princij^le acted upon ? — It was always acted on by the admis- sion committee, except when I was present. 1300. Then it would not agree with your experience, if it were stated, that though there was this notice, yet, for the last four years, it has not been acted upon ? — When I was pre- sent, it was not acted upon. 1301. But when you came into the management it was in operation? — That was the rule. 1302. But was it acted upon before ? — It was not only acted upon before, but even at the first meetings I attended of the admission committee. 1303. In 1841 ? — In 1841 ; and smce then I have endeavoured to get a return from the treasurer of aU cases where claims have arisen against the proper parochial settlement of those parties on accovmt of that principle. 1304. Have any outdoor paupers difficulty in obtaining medical relief from dispensaries or other sources ? — They obtain such relief, 1305. Then, practically, the outdoor do obtain relief, though not from the charity work- house ? — Quite so. They receive medical relief; but there is not that attention to the pre- vention of disease which woidd arise were there a staff of medical men connected with the charity. There are, to my certain knowledge, several ranges of old houses belonging even to managers, from which tj'phus is scarcely ever banished, and from them widows, and the orphans of Irish parents especially, are constantly burdening the poor's rates, a medical staff should long since have called public attention to this matter. 1306. You would propose an appeal to the sheriff? — Yes. 1307. Is there not a great difference of opinion in Scotland with respect to what would be adequate relief, taking into consideration other soui'ces of income ? — I don't think the question has been agitated. It has not come under my notice what should be the maximum of relief to a pauper. 1308. In fixing the allowance, you take into consideration the other sources ? — Always. 1309. Is It not the opinion of many, that giving large allowance would close up the other sources of relief to the poor ? — I never heard that stated. 1310. Have you never heard it stated, that one advantage of the Scottish system of al- lowance, is the insufficiency of them, on account of the encouragement given to private charity, the exei'tions of friends, and so on? — In Scotland, the objection to poor rates alto- gether arises from the opinion that the system destroys the independent character of the population ; but I never heard it argued seriously, that limiting the allowance to a pauper had a tendency to increase the charity of friends and neighbours. 1311. Have you reason to believe that any paupers come to Edinburgh with the view of gaining a settlement by three years' residence ? — -Parties don't come to Edinburgh for that pur- j)ose ; but the mode of management in the workhouse had the effect of making them stay and linger on tlU they were so qualified. They were told they could get no assistance till they had been three years' resident. Then they dragged on the best way they could till they had served their time. 1312. But was it not the interest of the managers to give them a temporary allowance to prevent them from getting a settlement ? — Decidedly. 1313. Then they acted contrary to their interest ? — They did not know their interest. 1314. You stated, that paupers did not generally get more than two meals a day ; are you aware that, in a great part of Ireland, the greater proportion of the population have only two meals a day ? — I don't know that of my own knowledge. But I know, of my own know- ledge, that our unemployed, — those masses we have In the town, — never get more than two meals a day, 1315. Before going, there is just one matter to which I would refer. I may mention, that the town-coimcil are about to raise a reduction of the contract — of the constitution — on which the present woi'khouse is established ; in that case, I have no doubt, that, generally, the charity workhouse managers wiU not defend the case ; and there w-ill be great difficulty in the management during the time the town-council lias it under its control ; and the condition of the poor, bad as it is, will be made worse. Then the managers would be placed under the town-coimcil ; and the only redeeming quality in the administration of the work- house is, from the elders of the establishment taking more interest than the general body of managers in the affairs of the house. With respect to the education of pauper children, the government has. intimated a plan of instruction ; but in the charity workhouse an immense 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Ml- David Doud. 7 March 1843. number of the children are Catholics ; and I attempted in vain to get the principle of the English charity workhouses introduced ; but I did not succeed. The children are brought up according to the ])rinciples of the Established Church ; but they are not even made good Protestants, and the consequence is, that when they are sent out as apprentices they run off. We hear of them in the poUce-office and in prison. And if any measure could be adopted by wliich the Cathohc clergy could get admission for the purpose of giving re- ligious instruction, by the pennission of, or under the superintendence of, the managers, we should be quite contented, and would give them books for moral and religious education. [The witness put in statements of, 1. " Native Places, and Number of Paupers receiving Ilelief in the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse ;" and, 2. " Birth-places of 919 Unemployed Operatives or Labourers aided by Edinburgh Local Committee," as follows : — NATIVE PLACES and NUMBER of PAUPERS receiving Relief in the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse. Temporary Outdoor j Indoor Relief. 1 Aid. PFNSIONPIiR ^ J... V A \^^^ CfVO* Males. Females. Total. Aberdeen, 22 ... 5 5 Argyle, 16 1 1 2 Ayr, 11 13 3 2 5 Banff, 1 • •■ 1 1 Berwick, 11 19 4 2 6 Bute, 2 • ■ • • • • ■ • • Caithness, 1 28 1 12 13 Clackmannan, 1 2 ■ 2 Cromarty, 4 • •• • •. • t . Dumbarton, 3 • • • • • • ■ • • Dumfries, 9 1 1 2 Edinbm-gh, 52 244 48 159 207 Elgin and Moray, 3 8 1 4 5 Fife, 1 23 3 14 17 Forfar, 4 4 6 10 Haddington, 1 36 3 9 12 Inverness, 30 3 7 10 Kincardine, • ■ • • ■ • • • • Kinross, • • • • • • ■ • • Kirkcudbright, 1 3 1 • • • 1 Lanark, 6 19 5 3 8 LinUthgow, 7 1 5 6 Nairn, 3 • • • 1 1 Orkney and Shetland, ... 10 1 3 4 Peebles, 5 ... 2 2 Perth, 1 35 5 16 21 Renfrew, 8 1 1 2 Ross, 3 27 2 4 6 Roxburgh, 11 ... 3 3 Selkirk, 3 ... • ■■ ■ •• Stirling, 8 . . . 4 4 Sutherland, 1 23 6 5 . 11 Wigton, Scotland, ... 4 ... ... ... ' 92 629 96 270 366 Temporary Aid. Outdoor Pen- sioners. Indoor Belief. Scotland, England, Ireland, MiscELi^NEOUS — Array,"! Navy, abroad, unknown, or not stated in cases,...] Total, 92 1 38 19 150 629 16 85 427 1157 366 9 25 13 413 POOR LAW INQUIEY COIVCMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 65 BIRTH-PLACE of 919 Unemployed Operatives or Labourers, aided hy Edinburgh Local Coiuuiittee. Exainiiiations, Aberdeen, Argyle, Ayr, ... Banff, ... Berwick, Bute, ... , , . Caithness, Clackmannan, . , , Cromarty, Dumbarton, Dumfries, .,, Edinburgh, Elgin and Moray, Fife, Forfar, Haddington, .., Inverness, .,. Carry foi'yvard. 6 6 6 12 5 1 1 9 286 3 12 5 15 7 374 Brought forward, Kincardine, Kinross, Kirkcudbright, Lanark, Linlithgow, Nairn, ... Orkney and Shetland, ... Peebles, Perth, ... Renfrew, XVOfSJ^a «•,• *t* *4* Roxburgh, Selkirk, .,. ,,. Stu'ling, ... .,. Sutherland, ,,. ,,. Wigtoim, ... .^. 374 2 4 37 11 1 1 1 27 3 12 6 2 10 6 1 498, Scotland, ... ... ^.. ... ... ... ,^. .,. 498 England, ... ... ... ... ,„ „. .,. ,,. 10 Ireland, 30g MiSCKLLANEOUS — Army, Navy, abroad, unknown, or not stated, except calling themselves n,atives of Scotland, ... .,. ... .,. 109 919 ?45 of whom have scarcely been seven years in Edinburgh, though haviug acquired parochial settlements by three years' residence. I know pot whether the qiiestion of relief to able-bodied men be before the board ; but I beg to state, that, in my humble opinion, no provision should be made for that class. Private charity wiU, in cages of periodical distress, quite suffice. In truth, that class, in ordinary circumstances, do n,ot suffer. While secretavy and chairman of the admission committee for the unemployed since last sunmier, 1 have had occasion to consider this point. Both trades- men and labourers go wherever work is to be had, and during their absence, theiv families are entitled to parish aid. If relief were provided for the men also, there would be uo in^ duQement to go in quest oi" work. " , Mr Uavi.l ])iiii(l. 7 Alarch 1843. Mr William Tint, Surgeon of Police, Edinbui-gh, Examilicd : — - 1316. You are siu'geon of the Police of Edinburgh? — Yes.^ 1317. How long have you been so? — Since May last. 1318. Before you were surgeon of police, had you an opportimi'ty of becoming acquainted with the poor ? — Even more so than since. 1319. Going to visit them in their dwellings? — Yes. 1320. Amongst others, those in receipt of parocliial relief ?'^- Yes. 1321. With reference to their allowances from the poor fujiicLs, do they seem sufficient ta keep them decently ? — No ; in no instance, 1322. Have you reason to believe that many of them support themselves by begging?—- Yes, I think so. 1323. And in what other way do they manage to subsist ?— A great many go about, — • some selling matches, others gathering cinders ; and engaged in many such operations. 1324. Do their relations assist them ? Do you find the feeling of family affection strong ? — I don't think it is. There is affection generally among the poor ; but there is not so strong a feeling among the relations of the poor as among those in better circumstances. 1325. It is not your opinion that destitution calls forth feelings of family affection ? — I don't think it. 1326. Do you think the poor are very kind to each other? — Yos, unless dissipated in their habits. 1327. Then you think that destitution calls forth assistance from one poor person towards another? — I think so. 1328. You think that in that way they manage to subsist, notwithstanding the insuffi-!' ciency of the allowances ? You mean that they are assisted by other poor who are not themselves paupers? — Quite so. 1329. Have you seen much intemperanee among those who ai-e in the receipt of parochial relief? — Yes. 1330. How do they get the money ? — Chiefly by begging. They go to the genteel parts Mr 'William Tail. 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Exumin&tiuns. MiWillia„,T»l(. 7 iUrch 184 a. of the town, pretending to sell articles, and, at the same time, betake themselves to bejiging. 18IU. But, aupjiosing a larger allowance were given them, do you think they would ex- pend it in drink ? — I think they would. 1332. Then you don't propose to give a larger allowance? — I don't. I think they are better as they are at present. 1333. Ai-e beggars very strictly taken up in Edinburgh? — ^Yes; I think they are at pre- sent more so than they have been. 1334. Have you any suggestions to make with respect to the way of dealing with the destitution among tlie classes you speak of? — It is a very difficult subject. 1 have fre- quently attem]ited to consider it : and I think, that so long as you give tliem anything in hand, they will not be better ; but if they got better food and clothing than by the work- house is afforded, their condition would be greatly unproved. 1335. You wish to see them relieved in the workhouse ? — Yes ; in some way in which they would not have the money in their own hands. They will lm})roperly apply the allow- ance so long as the money is in their own hands. I am speaking princliially of the dissi- pated classes. 133(). Are you in the habit of visiting them professionally in their own houses? — For the last seven years almost constantly. 1337. Have parties, \vitii parochial relief, the means of getting medical relief? — ^They got it from the dispensaries readily, but not ver)' attentively. They get it on application ; but still they are very much neglected. 1338. Is there difficulty in their getting on the list? — ^None; but after they are on the list, the charge of them is given to young men who are connected with the dispensaries. 1339. But if any complaint were made, woidd it not be regarded ? — Complaints are be- ing made everj' day ; and I don't think they are a bit better since I was acquainted with dispensary practice. 1340. All cases of severe sickness are admitted to tlie Infimiary — you are not refening to that, but to relief given to the poor by the dispensaries ? — Yes, in their own houses. 1341. And you think that sufficient attention is not paid to them? — I think not. 1342. How do you propose to remedy that ? — I think, pei'liaps-, if the responsibility were th^o^vn upon a parochial surgeon, perhaps it might remedy the evil so far. Of coiu'se, if the poor are taken into the workliouse, there they would be attended to by the medical officer of the establishment. 1343. Have you liad reason to believe that any poor came to Edinburgh to obtain a settlement? — I don't think that such is the intention of individuals when they come to town. I tliink they come from a feeling of pride, that they don't like to be among the poor in their native parishes. They would rather wish to go where they are imknown. 1344. Do you think tliat as many parties go from Edinburgh into the country parishes? — Not so many ; but sometimes they do. I don't think the same feeluig is in such a state of perfection in the town as in the country ; they ai-e more immoral. 1345. You said, .among the dissipated classes of the poor, it was almost impossible to im- prove their condition by giving them money, because they spend it impro})eriy ; and you propose to relieve them by giving them food and clothing, i-ather than by putting them mto a workhouse. Now, suppose you had a workliouse, would you make a difference between the dissipated and the well-conducted ? — I think so. 1346. And you think they are better out of the workhouse than within? — In most cases. Many of them are very industrious in spinning and knitting. 1347. Do you think it safe to give clothing to tlie dissipated, or would they dispose of it ? — They woidd dispose of it. 1348. Then you woidd have the workhouse for the dissipated ? Could any plan be fallen upon for discriminating betwixt the dissijiatcd and the decent classes ? — I coidd not say ex- actly. There might be a distinction made after a little inquiry. 1349. Are you acquainted with the condition of the able-bodied poor? — A great many are veiy dissipated. 1350. But tliose who are not dissipated, would you say that they are well off? — No ; I should say not. 1551. Do you tiiink it desirable to offer them any relief in the workhouse ? — ^I am scarcely prepared to give an opinion upon that. Mr JoUn Smith. Jffr John Smith, Governor of the Prison of Edinburgh, Examined : — 1352. You are in the situation of governor of the prison of Edinburgh? — Yes. 1353. You formerly occupied the situation of governor of the house of reftige ? — About three years ago — and for the period of twenty-three months. 1354. Before that, were you in any employment which gave you access to know the situa- tion of the poor ? — I wa^ an agent of the Edinburgh city mission during four years. 1355. Did that lead you to visit the jioor? — Yes. 1356. AVas it chieHy within the city of Edinburgh, or was it also within St Cuthbert's parish ? — Tliosc jiarts of St Cuthbert's parish which lie about the Potter-row. 1357. None of the city ? — None in tlic city, except a small part which came down to the Candlemaker-row. POOR LAW INQUIRY COJOOSSION FOR SCOTLAND. G7 1358. Who' are the persons principally received into the house of refuge ? — The Examinatiuns. destitute who apply, if their cases are considered such as come under the fair operation of the institution. ^ M^rrch 'lais!'' 1359. Had you often applications from those who were in the receipt of outdoor relief ?^- Often. 13(50. And did they receive that outdoor relief when with you ? — A great many were boarded in the house of refuge by parishes where there was no workhouse, some by the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse, and a few by the West Church Workhouse. 1361. Did you form any ojiinion with respect to the adequacy or inadequacy of the allow- ance for the outdoor poor in Edinburgh and St Cuthbert's ? — I always thought it much too low for those who were really deserving. 13(52. I presume they frequently complained of it themselves ? — Very often. 13(>3. Do you apply your observations to persons on the permanent roll, or oidy to those occasionidly relieved ? — To those chiefly who were on the permanent roll — to those called outdoor paupers. 1364. Those are inidorstood to be incapable of work? — Have you any knowledge of the amount of allowances' given to families of different numbers — say a widow with tour chil- dren ? — A single widow gets 4s. a month, sometimes 38. ; sometimes the allowance is as low as 2s. 6d. a month. . 1365. A widow with children ? — Perhaps 68. or 10s., or sometunes even 12s., or even more ; but very seldom. 1366. What is the usual allowance to a male person incapable of work ? — 4s. a month. 1367. That includes house rent and every thing? — Yes. 1368. That allowance you thought ^^■as insufficient of itself, I presume, to maintain a per- son ?• — Quite insufficient. 1369. From what other sources do they make it up ? — I believe, in a gi'eat proportion of cases, they suffi^r great privations ; and the allowance is supplemented by begging and aid from charitable societies. 1370. Are you in the knowledge of the place of birth generally, of the paupers in St Cuthbert's, — whether a great proportion belong to the parish, or have come from other parts of the country ? — Unless it was very obvious that they came from the north country, or from Ireland, I had no means of ascertaining that ; nor did it lie w ithin the sphere of my observation. 1371. Have you had any persons committed to prison who are regidar beggars? — Last year there were 202 committals, — not persons committed, but committals, — for several might be committed two or three times. 1372. Chiefly for potty theft? — For begging. 1373. Sent from the jwlice-office or sheriffk;ourt ? — From the police-office. . 1374. For what terms ? — Five, ten, twenty and thirty days. The average sentence might be fifteen days. 1375. Chiefly women? — No; aged men as well. There Avere ninety committals in 1841 ; 202 in 1842 ; and of these, taking in the two years, the number 60 years old and upwards, was upwards of thirty-six, and the number of committals of those 60 years old and upwards, was upwaixis of seventy-six. 1376. Have you knowledge whether these occasional beggars are paupers? — A consider- able propoi-tion of them are outdoor paupers. This is the last report of the West Church Charity Workhouse ; and it appears to contain the names of at least seven who were com- mitted to prison for begging. 1377. I suppose you always thought, in the case of those committed for begging, that the allowances were inadequate ? — Yes. I may mention the allowances of some of the parties. The first is Christian Baptie, aged 72, 3s. 6d. per month ; she was once committed to prison for begging. She has been only once, so far as I am aware. The next is Adam Eraser. 1378. He appears to be 80 years of age ? — Eighty-two, as stated in the prison register. 1379. What allowance has he? — 4s. a month. 138(). He appears to be from a country parish— Dolphington ? — Yes. The next is Catherine JNIacuiahon, aged 68. 1381. From Ireland? — From Ireland. 1382. And the allowance ? — 3s. per month. 1383. Was she in bad health ? — No. It does not appear from our books that she was. She was three times committed for begging ; and Adam Fi-aser, whom I mentioned before, was also three times connnitted. The next is John Nicol. 1384. Is he from Ireland also ? — I have it not stated here. 1385. What is his age? — Sixty-eight. 1386. His allowance ? — 5s. per month. He was once committed for begging. The next is Andrew "\^'auds. 1387. What allowance had he? — Ts. per month. 1388. He is in bad healtii ? — He has a sore leg. He was once committed for begging. 1389. Was he incajiable of work ? — Yes. His leg is so sore that he cannot work. 1390. Have you reason to believe that these persons were intemperate? — I know that one of them is very dissipated. 1391. With reference to those relieved by the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse ? — lam not aware that there is such a list of outdoor paupers of the City Charity Workhouse as would enable me to make a statement, so far as they are concerned ; but I have no doubt many of them are In the same way. There is a reason why it is difficvdt to make up a ftdl 68 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, statement. If the person be a female, the husband's name is given in the workhouse list ; ,, ~ ^..1 and, in the warrants, it is the maiden name that is used. Tliere may be more whom we >Ir Joliii bmitli. ' , ., ... ,. 1 . ■ . "^ 7 Mmrli lB4a. Cannot identity on account ot that circumstance. 1392. While j-ou held your situation in the house of refuge, had you reason to believe that the number of jjaupcrs was increasing in St Cuthbert's parish, or was keeping stationary ? — I do not know that I could form any opinion on tliat. Numbers came from the town, and a great many from the country, to tlie house of refuge, so that I don't know whether I coidd form any opinion. 1393. In your situation as missionary, had you- the means of fonning a judgment? — I always believed that deterioration was going on, in consequence of drunkenness, to a great extent, and that pauperism was increasing in the same ratio. 1394. You found, I supi>ose, a great deal of drunkenness among the lower classes ? — A very great ileal, 1395. Do you conceive that any increase of allowance would, in many cases, go to increase intemperance ? — I feel very certain of that. 139(5. Has any remedy suggested itself to you, such as giving food instead of money?— Perhaps that might, in some cases, do good ; but, unless something were done in the way of putting ose taken in the charity workhouse ?^ Yes. In many cases the chil- dren are sent out by their parents to beg ; and it is ended by their becoming confirmed thieves. 1401. Have you many persons brought into the jail of Edinburgh for higher offences than begging, who, you have reason to believe, are paupers ? — Frequently. Many youths have grown up to the higher class of offences, who were left destitute or orphans, the father pro- bably dying or deserting ; and, in consequence of no attention being paid to them either by the parish or by their mothers, they fidl into crime. Two cases suggest themselves to my memory just now — one of a family from Leith, whose father deserted ten years ago. He left five children — two girls and three boys. We had the whole five in jail at the same time. The two girls were transported. One of them was removed from the Edinburgh jail to be transported, when one of the boys was in for stealing, and the two younger were in for beg- ging — all at orve time. 1402. Have you had occasion to converse with children of that description about theii' instruction in religion ? — Frequently ; and I have found, in most cases, that it has been totally neglected. The mother of these children got 2s. 6d. per week, out of which she was to support tl>em. The consequence was, she was obliged to go out for work. They went out to beg, and they became thieves and prostitutes. On making a representation, some of them were taken into the house of refuge. The mother became intemperate. She wished them rather not to go into the house of refuge. She wislied that they would rather beg for her. 1403. There was another case? — A family of the name of S . The mother, the daughter, and two sons, were in jwison. According to the mother's statement (for which, however, I had only her evidence), about eight years ago, her husband, who was a native of Ireland, fell into bad health. She stated that tlie pansh gave him a gratuity of 5i. to get him away. He went to (ilasgow where he had been before, and died. She came back, and the parish would do nothing more. In consequence, she and the others fell into crime. One of the sons was transported, and the other son was sent to the penitentiary. The daughter went upon the town ; and the mother is a drunken and very wortliless person. 1404. Did you observe any difference in the Irish j)oor, whether they were better or worse than the Scotch ? — It is said they succeed better tlian the Scotch in getting an allowance from the parish. TSicy are mwe imjwxrtunate — not easily said nay. They liglit their way when a person from Scotland would stand still ; but their houses, I found, were more wretched. They are content with more wretched and squalid accommodation. 1405. Wei"e their chil(h"en in as bad a state ?^ — I should say, in a worse. 140(>. Do you think the influx of Irish poor is a mcane of deteriorating the condition of the Scottish poor ? — I hav« net a doubt of that. 1407. In what way does that deterioration take place ? — By their working at lower rates of wages. 1408. Or by the contaniinalion of their haibits of life? — By both. 1409. Then you think the influx of Irish has the effect, botii of deteriorating their circum- stances and of lowering the raonil tone ef society ? — Yes. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 69 1410. Do you think the prospect of obtaining a settlement here, and the relief procured Examinations, from the charity workhouse and other sources of society, lias operated as an mducenicut to j^j,. john Smith, brincr over Irish to this country ? — I don't think that. The Irish are not so apt to look for- 7 Maicli 184:!. ward as that implies. But, when two or three come here, they have an inducement to re- main for three years ; and they very often contrive to make it out. 1411. Do you think poor people come from Scotch country parishes from this inducement ? I think they do. 1412. To obtain work or charity?— To obtain chanty. To obtain work, when they are young ; but in^many cases when they arc old, to obtain chai-ity^ 1413. Could you mention any instances that fell .under your own .observation with refer- ence to the Scotch rural parishes ?— I could not specify any. I may have known particular cases ; but I don't remember the names and circumstances- I know it, however, to be a fact- I have no doubt of the thing. They come to various institutions — the Lj-ing-in Institution, and various hospitals- I met a woman to-day, wlio has beeii about Edinburgh for several years. She came from Greenock to tlie Infirmary, and ehe has been endeavouring to battle out here for a residence. She was sent to the pciutcutiary. She is now liune and .destitute. She is in very straitened circumstances. But she iirst came for the Infii-mary. 1414. Ib order to get relief? — In order to get medical jtreatment. 1415. Is there no infirmary in Greenock? — I tliink there is; but it is bdleved ihat the highest medical skill is in Edinburgh- 141 (). Have you any information with respect to the proportion of those tolerably well educated, and of those who are «'cry ill educated ?— 1 should say, without being aware of the precise number, that we have at this time in the Edinburgh prison, sLxty-three [Kjrsons fifteen years old and under, two-thirds of whom are probably able to read. 1417. Have those who read any notion of religion at all? — Very little indeed. 1418. Then it is not an uncommon tiring to find boys able to read tolerably, totally ignorant of religion ?— Yes- Of these sixty-three, thirty-sev^n had no fiither alive- 1419. Do you think it possible that the kirk-sessions of Edinburgh could 4;ake charge of the poor ? — Not now. The tking is so ovcrgoBOwn, that I doubt if it could l>e overtaken ' now. 1420. If additional churches were built with Idrk-sessions ? — If there were additional churches and kirk-sessions, and the system were well worked, it would do a gieat deal to do away with ignorance, and, consequently, with crime and pauperism. Moral and religious training I consider to be the only radicid cure. 1421. What would you think of giving relief to the dissipated amoi^ the oul^pensioners in the workhouse onlyf^It would be very preferable to having them going ahowt as now. 1422. Have vou seen much of the -able-bodied poor? — Yes, I have. 1423- What is their condition generally? — It is low at this time- 1424. Owing to the peculiar distress of the times ? But without reference to that, what is their general condition ? — It has been lowering ; they have been suffering for years. 1425. You have not considered whether it is desirable to relieve them in any way ? — I have frequently thought that, t* prevent them getting woi'se — getting down in society- losing heart as it were — .it would be desirable to give them relief occasionally. 1420. And how would you provide against abuse? — It would be %ery difficult to do sq. 1427. Would you be for giving them relief at their own hbuses? — ^If it could be given in the shape of work, I should much prefer it 1428. Do )'ou know whether parties who are in jail find it difficult afterwards to obtain a maintenance ? — I am satisfied that they find it very difficult. 1429. Have any of them expressed a feeling or apprehension that they would not get cm afterwards? — Many times — evcRy day, perhaps- 1430. What would the eftcct be on such persons, do you .think, if they obtained a temporary provision in the workhouse till they could get employment ?— Many would be very thankful. I have written letters for ninety-one prisoners since June last, some to relations and friends, others to parishes and other charities ; all of them were cpiite destitute. No doubt, many of those ninety-one prisoners would be very thankfid to have such a provision for a time ; and it might be -the means of getting them afloat again. 1431. Have you had any offers from any individutd — voluntary offers — to come into your jail ? — We .have had them unwilling to go out when once in. And I may mention, that I have a letter written by a prisoner in jail to his wife. They liave a family of five helpless children, for whom it is difficidt to provide. I shall read an extract from the letter : — " Don't let the children die of hunger as long as you are able to go about seeking bread for them ; however, though it may be against your nund, they and you would be as well here as looking for meat and not able to keep a house." He is untried. They went to the house of refuge, where they were kept for a few days, said then sent a\vay. .They were foimd in the Canongate parish, destitute. On applying for relief, the answer the mother got was, that they had not been three years in the parish ; and they could get no relief. 1432. AVhat is the name, and where does she live? — Macnaltyis the name; and -the address is, care of ^"illiam Graham, 15, Leith Wynd, Edinburgh. The treasm-er of the Canongate ChiU-ity Workhouse offered her a pass ^o go to GJasgo\^', where it seemed she had a legal settlement; but she coidd not think of going away when her husband was a prisoner in Edinburgh- 1433. He is untried, you say ? — He is untried. 1434. A\'Tiat was Iris employment ? — A common labourer. 1435. What is lus country— is he a Scotchman ? — An Irishman. 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIO^N BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr John Smith. 7 March 1843. 1436. "Where has he a settlement? — From wliat hia wife stated, I think he must have a settlement in some of the Glasgow parishes. They have been eighteen years out of Ireland ; they have been resident in Greenock, and also in Liverpool — eo that it is quite possible that they may not have a settlement at all. 1437. You don't know whether they are likely to have a settlement in Ireland? — I don't know. 1438. How many individuals will the house of refuge hold? — About 400. 1439. It is supported entirely by voluntary contribution ?— Not entirely. Some parishes board individuals there ; and unfortunate females— females who are drunken, are there supported. The amount of board paid to the institution is generally, I behove, about 1100/. a year. It is paid by the parishes, and by the relations of intempei^ate persons boarded there. 1440. Of those not boarded, what is the qualification for admission ? — Destitution. 1441. Residence in Edinburgh? — Independently of residence in Edinburgh. 1442. Woidd not a great proportion of the applicants be entitled to parochial relief? — It always seemed to me an important j)art of the operations of the house of refuge to fight the battle of the poor for a settlement, and, by long practice, the house of refuge came to know the law of settlement in all its various bearings ; and many Avere got on their parishes who, if left to their own unaided exertions, would never have established their claims. The house of refuge always contains a great number whose claims are contested betwixt the managers of the workhouses and the directors of the house of refuge. 1443. But the question of settlement woidd not legally affect the right to relief in the meantime ? — -No. I have seen cases in which the managers of parishes woidd have boarded them in the house of refuge till it was established to wh:it parish they belonged. In cases of destitution, and in very clamant cases, they have done so many times. But there is always a great munber who are destitute and helpless, inasmuch as they cannot get work, but whose years don't entitle them to relief from the pai-ish, as the law is construed. 1444. Tlien they give relief to able-bodied persons in the house of refuge? — Yes. 1445. Ai'e the inmates [)rincipally able-bodied? — No, not principally; but a good many of them are so. They are out of employment and situations; and they are allowed to go out on certain days of the week to look for situations. 1446. Are the majority of the parties in the house of refuge, parties entitled to parochial relief? — I should say they are, taking in the old along with the young — the young, who are not able to support themselves, and ttie old, who are past labour. 1447. Excludhig the boarders? — Yes. 1448. If destitution were sufficiently relieved in the various parishes there w'ould be no need for the institution? — No, if relief^ were given prompt!}'. But persons may be found destitute, lying in a stair, or on the street; and they get admission instantly into the house of refuge, whereas, a great many fonus must be gone through in jiarishes where the settle- ment lies — so that a person requiring relief might be dead before. 1449. Would the fonns prevent a j)er8on from receiving immediate relief in the work- house? — I think so. 1450. But if there were no difficulty about the forms, and relief were promjitly ad- ministered, that would supersede, in a great measure, the necessity for the institution? — Yes. 1451. Though admission into the workhouse cannot be granted without certain forms, cannot immediate out-relief be granted in a case of sickness, or of destitution? — The risk of the charity being misapplied, by the money being melted into drink, raises an impediment. 1452. But might not relief be given out in kind from the workhouse? — Yes; but it would, in many cases, be exchanged for wiiisky. 1453. But in a case of sickness, or of accident? — Tliere Is great risk. I have known one take what was given for a sick child, and drink it. 1454. You think It desirable to have greater facilities for admission into the workhouse? — Decidedly so. 1455. There Is nothing you have to suart of what is given to ordinary paupers is spent on whisky notoriously — so, that while 1 say on the whole that there is not a sufficient provision made for the poor, yet I would much rather see an alteration in the principle of distribution than any increase of allowance under the old system. If you were increasing the means of relief, and adhering to the old system, it would just be pouring oil on the flames ; you would squander away the money, which would be absorbed, as before, through the old channels : — whereas, if you had statutory relief for institutional cases, and were then to leave the kirk-session to raise fiinds by voluntary contributions, and apply them according to their discretion, and according to their knowledge of the character of the people requiring relief, that would put in operation a system better than any I know. 1471. Do I understand you to say, that there is not sufficient provision for institutional diseivse? — There is none. There is no statutory provision. 1472. You were formerly one of the ministers of Leith ? — I was. 1473. Does it strike you, that there is any difference betwixt the mode in which the poor are treated in Leith and in Edinburgh, with respect to the rate of allowance ? — There is very little difference. We were in the habit of giving a little more in Leith. But the great difference in the way in which the poor are treated, is, that in Leith the business is done by the elders, and bv a general board. 1474. They are more carefully looked after? — Yes ; and I would say, there is more per- sonal intercourse. 1475. AYas there any workhouse in Leith ?— None. 1476. All the rehef was given at their own habitations ? — At their own habitations. 1477. Did it strike you, that the pauper population in Leith were a more moral people than the same class in Edinburgh? — I should not say there was any difference. There is as large and respectable body of operatives in Leith as in Edinburgh. 72 MINUTES OF E\aDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Examinations. liev.J Buclianan. 7 March 1843. 1478. Tliere is an assessment in Leitli ? — There is. 1479. But it is administered by the kirk-session ? — Yes. 1480. Without interference by the heritors at all? — -Practically, the heritors never Inter- fere. 1481. Is there anything yoH wowtd have to suggest? — 'With respect to the second class of cases — not institutional but domestic — I think it may be well for me to lay before the board a statement, fesued by a meeti-'ng of ministers and elders, showing the plan we are disposed to work if the collections were placed at our diteposal. It was written by myself last year. The system just consists in this, — having a sufficient number of visitors, or agents, under the kirk-session, each of whom should charge lii«iself, or herself, M'ith the charge of ten or twenty families ; and, in that way, we not only would save a great deal of money which is noAV squandered in intemperance, but we should also impress the poorer classes with a sense of owe personal interest in tlieJr welfare. 148^. C&n you say anything, from cxpeiience, as t« the working of it ? — Not much, as it has only been in operation in two or three districts. Where it is in operation, my mind is at ease with respect to those districts ; that is, I am perfectly satisfied that no person can, in these districts, suffer from want, or without my coming to be aware of it ; and then the younger children are picked otit and sent to school, and to service, or got into employment. The same plan has been introduced into other parishes. I don't know with what success. There is at Greenock a female society which interests itself about the poor on a similar plan. 1483. Dr Macfarlane will be aware of that ? — I should suppose so. The plan was strongly recommended by Dr Abercrombie, in a letter addressed to the elders of Edinbuj'gh. 1484. Have you a fund to distribute ?— We would havC) if the collections were at our dis- posal ; but we have not now. 1485. Supi>osing funds were placed at the disposal of a committee of this kind, do you think there would be a spirit of perseverance in going on with the visiting ? — I should rather say, I prefer being without funds raised by assessment for this class of eases ; but I would have funds collected at tho church doors. 148G. With reference to the latter, do you think there would be as great a spirit of per- severance throughout, as of zeal at the commencement of the operations ? — I think there would. There is one lady m4io has been a visitor for two years. I see she is quite interested in the people, and she would think it a deprivation eouW she not continue her labours amongst them. 1487. But do you judge of a system from two years' operation? Would it be so conducted for forty years ? — Then, I may mention to you the case of Mr Heggie, who became one of Dr Chalmers' visitors in Glasgow. He is a wealthy upholsterer. He is now visiting in the same district, in which, twenty years ago, he visited, and that aimcmg the children of those whose fathers and mothers he in eariy life had visited. 1488. And j^ott think that this would be the case generally? — I think, where vital re- ligion exists, there is a sufficient stimulus to persevering benevolence. 1489. Would you propose that the societies should deal with able-bodied persons as well as others ?— Yes. I think there is no reason why we should limit our charity. There is a very good reason why we shuuld limit our assessments ;■ but none that we should exclude the able-bodied from assistance. One ad\antage \vould be, that a case of poverty might be re- lieved without the individiml being ujidcr the net^i»sity of making a public apjJication for relief. 1490. Might you not find among that description of poor that relief would tend to weaken their habits of jjrovidence ?-^A good deal would depend on the discretion of the a::ccnt. 1491. Do you think any one can guard against individuals being improvident or lax in various ways, whicJi no one can possibly detect ? — No ; at the same time that is rather an evil incident to the exercise of bencvolcuce at large. ' That docs n^ seem to me a considci-a- tion which can be viewed ia a national system of relief for the poWk It is what human law cannot regulate-. 1492'. If you so contrived that the condition of the able-bodied men should be less de- sirable, would you not then have a safeguanl against improvidence, and at the same time relieve misery ? — I am veiy decidedly of opinion, that no legislative checks wiU prevent im- providence, if able-bodied men have a legal statutory right to live on another's earnings as >yeU as his owp,, 1493. But, if he had a right, only under certain conditions Ayhfch rendered it undesir- able ? — That is the only check that can be proposed ; but I question whether it would be a sufficient check if confined within the limits of hmnanity. 1494. Are you aware that the town-council of Edinburgh are taking steps to put an end to the system of the charity workhouse ? — I have seen from the newspapere that there is some prospect of litigation. I am not aware of the actual state of matters. 1495. Has it been contridered how this schonic you hitve delivered us would work among tiie dissenting congregations ? — The scheme is intended to be worked territorially ; that is, that ten or twenty contigiwus fiimiliea shoukl be taken. 1496. Whethoi' they lilong to. the Established Church ox tKoi, ?— Yqs, POOR LAW INQUIRY COI^IMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 73 Thursday, 9th March 1843. Examinations. 9 March 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Di-ummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Cralgie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and ReT. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT IVIELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Dr W. P. Alison, Professor of the Practice of Medicine in the University of Edinbiu"gh, Examined : — 1497. You are one of the medical professors in the University of Edinburgh ? — Yes. 1498. And you also professionally attend several of the charitable institutions ? — Yes. I am consulting physician of the New Town Dispensary. For many years I was ordinary physician. 1499. Yoiu* professional duties have led you to see a good deal of the habits of the poorer classes ? — A great deal. 1500. Both those who are receiving parish relief and those who are able-bodied ? — Yes. 1501. Have you written on the subject of the poor laws ? — I have. 1502. Has it appeared to you that the provision for the poor has been adequate to their needful stistentation ? — I think certainly not. 1503. You allude to the regular poor who are on the parish roU? — Yes. I think the re- lief qiute inadequate as to those admitted ; and that there are a great many not admitted, who have a claim to it, even according to the law as it stands ; the paupers are only a fi-ac- tion of the destitute. 1504. You speak now of those who receive out of this relief? — Yes. 1505. Does it come within yom* knowledge that those who are impotent do not receive enough to maintain them ? — I think not one of them receives enough. The relief afforded is always inadequate. 1506. Have you had occasion to inquire generally as to their allowance ? — ^Very often. 1507. Is it pretty uniform, or does it vary ? — Pretty uniform in the town ; it is somewhat different in the town, and the West Church, and the Canongate. 1508. What is the highest? — The town allowance is higher than the West Church gene- rally, and I shoidd also think higher than the Canongate ; but of this I am not so certain. 1509. Tlien as to orphan children, some of them are taken into the workliouse and pro- vided for ? — Yes, but a great many are not. 1510. What becomes of them — are they boarded? — The most of those who are entirely orjihans are taken into the house, and the young ones boarded out at the expense of the house ; there are some entire oi-phans neither taken into the house nor boarded — but few. 1511. Are the children of the poor looked after as to education? — They are provided ^\^th the means of education ; but widows with several young children, who have only this inade- quate aUo'svance, must send out theu* children to find provision, by begging, or selling small wares ; and in this way their education is neglected. 1512. Does it consist with yoiu' knowledge that any of them are habitually employed in begging ? — Yes ; numbers. 1513. Some of those who receive parochial relief? — I think so ; but I can hardly answer the question precisely at this moment ; but I think I could find examples of those receiving relief begging, and their children also. 1514. Have you reason to know, or do you know what means are taken to ascertain the amount of destitution in individual cases ? — It is ascertained by the charity workhouse ; but they have only one inspector for the whole of the ancient royalty, and I believe he does his duty conscientiously ; but it is impossible for him to inquire into all the cases thoroughly. In consequence of the deficiency of the means of inspection, many urgent cases are neglected for a length of time after apphcation has been made. 1515. Have you kno^vn instances of people applying for parish relief whom you conceived entitled to it by law, and refused ? — I have known many instances of this. 1516. As to the smallness of their allowance, do you conceive that it has any particular effect on the religious habits of the poor ? — I think it has an injurious effect on their religi- ous habits in this way, that they have not clothing to go to chiu-ch ; and it has a pernicious effect on the education of the children, and has a demoralizing effect on their habits gene- rally. It is impossible for them to maintain cleanhness, or to live in decent parts of the town ; they must go where lodgings are cheap, or where they can lodge for nothing. Many of them are living in houses condemned, at the risk of the house coming dowTi upon them ; and in these places they necessai-ily associate with very depraved characters ; and this is the case even with children of very respectable people. 1517. Has it appeared to you that the inadequacy of allowance tends to weaken their fi'iendly feelings towards each other? — It makes them reckless and improvident in all re^ Dr W.P.Alison. 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations. Dr W.P.Alison. 9 March 1843. spects. I would not say that there is not family affection among them ; but the fiiendly feelings of this class are never to be depended on. They have very seldom any uniformity of general conduct. 1518. Do you perceive any difference in their general habits between natives of Edin- burgh and other parts of Scotland, and England, and Ireland ? — Yes ; there are differences in their habits. 1519. Do you conceive the Edinburgh people are more regular in their habits? — ^I think that the natives of Edinburgh, and the Scotch generally, when they become very destitute, ai'e fully more depraved in their conduct than the Irish ; many of them are permanently given to intoxication ; but tliis has certainly decreased of late years. 1520. From what cause? — The efforts made by temperance societies and teetotallers, and the exertions made by the clergy and missionaries, and the visitors of different societies. 1521. Do these inadequate allowances make the poor dependent on each other, — I mean on poor people, nearly in the same situation as themselves ? — Yes ; a great many of them depend on each other, — on people nearly in their o^vn situation, and on those a little liigher than themselves. 1522. You would conceive that inadequate allowance is against promoting a spirit of in- dependence among them ? — Yes ; they are necessarily dependent ; it is impossible that they can maintain themselves in independence. There are many of them with incm-able com- plaints ; many of them with children ; and when not dependent on public charity, they depend on mendicity in one form or another, which mendicity, I am confident, is more demoralizing than public charity. 1523. Do many people come to Edinburgh from the coimtry, or from Ireland, merely to gain a settlement, or do they come originally to procm'e work ? — Generally in quest of work. Some sick and partially disabled persons come with a view to procure a settlement, but this is not a common case ; but when here, if they become disabled, even when within the time they should go back to their native parishes, a great number remain in order to get on the private charities in the meantime, — the Destitute Sick Society for instance, in case of sick- ness, — until they make up their time and get on the poor's roU. 1524. Is it the practice to relieve any who have not a legal settlement, — to give occasional relief? — Occasional relief is given to some ; but the usual practice of the charity workhouse is to refuse relief to those who have no settlement. 1525. Is that the practice both In the city and in the West Church parish ? — I believe in both. 1526. Perhaps you may be able to ftirnlsh us with some instances ? — ^Yes ; I have a list of persons either refused relief altogether, or whose relief was delayed for long after they applied. 1527. Are they generally persons in the to^vn? — Partly in the town, and partly in the West Church. [Dr Alison handed in the list containing the names and residence of thirty- five individuals.] I might very easily add to the number. 1528. As to the unemployed poor, are they frequently in general destitution ? — Very frequently. 1529. And they get no relief at all ? — ^None from the charity workhouse ; and in ordi- nary times there is no public charity to meet their case. Repeatedly, of late years, there have been subscriptions to meet the case of the unemployed ; and since April last the number of the unemployed has gradually risen to upwards of 1200, with 5000 women and children depending on them, in Edinburgh, or the West Church parish, all having a legal settlement, having been at least three years In town or the neighbourhood. 1530. Has it appeared to you that the denial of relief to the able-bodied unemployed haa a demoralizing effect on them ? — I think it has that effect generally. It renders them irregular in their habits. The men go in search of work, and leave theli' wives and families for a time, and sometimes desert them altogether. They first pawn their clothes, and wander away, trusting that their wives and children will get relief by charity or otherwise. Many of the unemployed, however, have been irregular and of intemperate habits previously. The conduct of the 1200 now imemj)loyed has, I understand, been exceedingly good the whole time. But I have not much information in regard to the unemployed men. Bailie John- ston and Councillor M'Aulay can give most information on this. 1531. You know about the imemployed women? — This winter the number of unem- ployed men has been so great, and the destitution of their families so urgent, that hardly anything has been done for the unemployed women. Formerly different kinds of work were got for them ; but this winter hardly anything. Thirty or forty were employed in sewing, but the fund got for them was trifling. There are many himdreds of single women and widows, often with single children, who receive nothing from the charity workhouse, and who have been many weeks out of employment, particularly those employed in the summer in fields and gardens ; in winter there is no provision for them whatever. When employed, their profits are seldom above 3s. a week ; and any saving they can make, after their field employment has ceased, is generally exhausted in a few weeks ; and then they must pawn their clothes. If they beg, they are subject to be apprehended and imprisoned ; and this naturally leads to fraud and theft, and sometimes to prostitution. 1532. Do you mean that they make only 3s. a week working in a field? — Sometimes they make a little more for a few weeks at a time ; but, generally, they have but 3s. or 3s. 6d. a week. I have some cases in regard to this selected long ago. In the " Illustrations on the Management of the Poor," which was read before the Statistical Section of the British Asso- ciation in 1840, there is this question put to many members of charitable societies in Edin- Burgli, — " What are the ordinary profits for women of the lowest rank when employed ? General answer. — Seven answer 3s. or less per Aveek." POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. U " 4d. or 5d. a day- Mr M'Donald 1533. Did that answer refer to outdoor work in summer or town-work in winter? It applied to both when they were employed. Here are some answers more precise ; — " Drs Urunton and Hunter answer, — " Very various, probably not exceeding, on an average, 6d. Eer day, and extremely precarious in duration." Mr Dalziel answers,- y kmtting, 8d. or Is. by sewing, and Is. with victuals when washin^^ answers, — " For common needlework or outdoor employment, the average profits are from 6d. to 8d. ; but these employments are very precarious. These women have seldom em- ployment more than three or foiu- days in the week, and are often for many weeks without it." The next question put is tliis, — " Are these employments generally overstocked in Edinburgh. General answer, — 18 out of 19, answer. Yes. Drs Brunton and Hunter answer, ' Very greatly.' Mr M'Donald answers, — ' Quite overstocked.' " 1534. Have you turned your attention to the poor law, and have you anything to suggest in regard to it ? — I have. 1535. Do you think it would be safe to give an augmentation of allowance to the poor without some check ? — I think there ought to be checks on every kind of legal relief. The first check is a thorough system of inspection, which I consider to be very deficient, and that generally in Scotland. 1536. You would have persons employed for the piu^ose? — ^Yes, I would not trust to gratiiitous inspection : but persons ought to be employed for the pm-pose who ought to act under kirk-sessions, or other boards. In this town there is only one person to inspect the whole population of 55,000, of whom the proportion of poor is very great. That man's duty overbm-dens him. In the West Church it is not better managed. 1537. Do you conceive that there are many persons in the West Church parish who have legal claims, and do not receive them? — A great many who receive either nothing, or whose reUef is delayed a great deal longer than it ought to be. In regard to the nimiber of persons in destitution, beyond what are received on the roll of the parish, I have a number of documents; and the most important of any is the evidence procured by the committee who investigated the town at the time of the distribution of what was called the Prince of Wales' Fund. I have a number of the schedules to show how accu- rately that was gone into. The general result is, that they found 21,600 in such a state of destitution that they recommended them for gratuitous relief, besides several thousands more whom they recommended to have assistance. I beg to hand in the accoimt that was published in the newspapers at the time. This is one of the schedides made out by those who visited and exammed ; and there is here a colmnn marking whether they were or were not receiving parish allowance. [Given in.] 1538. Do you think that in large toA\-ns particularly, the workhouse system should be resorted to ?— I am not competent to speak fully in regard to the workhouse system. I have no doubt in regard to this, that the system should not be applied to widows and disabled men of good character. I tliink they ought to receive outdoor relief as they do now here and in England. The workhouse system is well adapted to a certain description of the unemployed poor. I would say that in all parts of the covmtry where the demand for labom- is generally steady — and where it may be expected that those who are out of employ- ment are of irregular character — the workhouse system should be adopted ; but whei'c the demand for labour is very fluctuating, it has not been found expedient to apjJy it in England, and I doubt if it ever vnH. In regard to the question as to the nmnber of j)ersons destitute, but not receiving relief at all, I have a note of 333 cases of destitution, all of which were carefully inquired into by myself and two other persons : 121 heads of families receiving re- lief, and 212 receiving no parochial rcHef ; and of these, 56 are out of employment, and 86 are disabled for work by age or diseases. 1539. Have you had occasion to remark as to the inconvenience of the settlement being limited to three years ? — I have no doubt it has a pernicious effect in multi2:)lying the cases in towns, and in aU those districts where the demand for employment is iiTcgular, at times good, and to which people resort with the expectation of getting employment. If they can settle themselves for three years they come on the parish. When they come to know that a residence of three years entitles them to relief, they will not leave the place ; as, in the case of disability, age, accident, or death, their families must have some allowance from the town. 1540. You would propose the time of residence to be extended? — I think the time ought certainly to be extended ; I should say to not less than ten years. In Denmark it is now four- teen years. At the same time, I think that the principle of the Scotch law of settlement by industrial residence, is perfectly fair. I think the English law, which is practically, almost entirely, by birth, is not so equitable. 1541. Have you any acquaintance with the state of the poor in coimtry parishes ? Do you conceive them to be better or worse off than in towns ? — In some parts of the south of Scot- land, I believe, they are very well off, indeed, as much so as one could wish to see them. In Berwickshire, and in Galashiels in Selkirkshire, I fo\md the allowance double that of Edin- burgh. I know the case of a woman in Galashiels, with four childi-en, who had 5s. a week, a very fair allowance, nearly as much as she would receive in England. It was found that she had a settlement in Edinburgh, and the charity workhouse here have allowed her but one-half. 1542. Woidd it be more agreeable for the paupers themselves, who are debiUtated, to live with their friends, than in the charity Avorkhouse ? — To the greater number it would. Even single men and women would often prefer living at home. 1543. Do you think it an erroneous principle that rehef should be administered in aid of other means, or ought they to have enough to be able wholly to maintain themselves ? — In the case of persons who are partially disabled, relief ought to be given in aid of other means. Examinations. DrW. P. Alison. 9 March 1843. 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. A ^ddow, able to do some work, should be required to do it, and that is the plan actually Dr W. P. Alison ^-dopted in England. I know it has been talked of in England, to rcftise relief to a woman, 9 March 184;^. unless she come into the poorhouse, but this has not been acted upon. In the same way, a man who is lame, or subject to asthma occasionally, may, nevertheless, do some laboiu-, and it is right that he should, and it is proper that the amount of his relief should be proportion- ate to his ability to do something for himself. That is the principle in England. 1544. You have no knowledge of any of the distant parts of the country which are unas- sessed? — I have information in regard to them from several parts of the country, — little or no personal knowledge. I know of persons coming from country districts to Edinburgh, at an advanced period of Ufe. I have a list of 82 paupers, who were more than 60 years of age before coming into the West Chmrh parish. 1545. Natives of Scotland ? — Natives of Scotland generally. It is stated that not one of the 82 came from Glasgow, Perth, or Dundee ; but I do not know if it is altogether accu- rate. [List given in.] 1546. In some of your writings you enter fully into the effects of inadequate allowance on the health of the poor — upon the general effects of destitution, from whatever causes it may have arisen, on the health? — I considered that subject very fuUy. The most important docimient I know in regard to that is by Villerme, a part of which I quoted in a paper read to the British Association last year, in Manchester, — " On an elaborate inquiry into the com- parative mortality of the twelve arrondissements of Paris, contained in the Archives de Medecine for 1825. It there appeared that these districts of that cityfoUowed, with very slight variation, the same order as to mortality for five years together, the extremities of the scale being 1 in 45 for the first arrondissement, and 1 in 24 for the twelfth, and the mean mor- tality of Paris being 1 in 32.4 — that this order had no connexion with the vicinity of the districts to the river, or their distance from it — nor with the degree of elevation of the groimd — nor with the nature of the soU— nor with the neighbourhood to or distance from the fetid marshes of Montfaucjon— nor with the purity or impiu-ity of the water drank — nor with the degree of density of the popidation, Avhether estimated by the proportion of in- habited houses to the whole extent of the districts, or by the proportion of the nxunber of inhabitants to the space occupied by the buildings. By the true method of induction or exclusion, it was proved that none of these conditions determined the greater or less mor- tality of the different districts. But when the districts were compared with one another, according to the number of their pauvres, ascertained by the proportion of their inhabitants paying no taxes, on account of their poverty, they were found to arrange themselves, ahnost precisely in the same order in which they stood as to the degree of mortality, the three first arrondissements occupying the lowest place, and the eighth, ninth, and twelfth, the highest Elace, in both scales." I have given evidence that the mortality in Glasgow and Edinburgh as been higher, particularly on the occmTence of years of epidemics, than in any town in Eng- land. In no town in England has the annual mortahty of late years ever exceeded 1 in 30 ; but it has been fully ascertained that the mortality in Glasgow had reached this amoimt on an ave- rage of five years ; and that in 1837, it had been 1 in 24, exceeding that recorded in any year in Liverpool, by 20 per cent. Coupling these facts with the above statement, I infer that the provisions against destitution in the Scotch towns are much less effective. 1547. What is the largest amount of deaths in Glasgow in any year? — In the year 1837, the deaths in Glasgow were upwards of 10,000. 1548. You speak in regard to aU, Irish and aU others? — Yes. It was ascertained that the mortality for that year in Glasgow was 1 in 24, and in Edinburgh, the same year, 1 in 27.4, exceeding the highest in any town in England — exceeding Liverpool by 10 per cent., and the highest recorded in London by 19 per cent., (viz. as 27.4 to 32.8.) 1549. lias it ever come under your observation that the state in which pauper children are left, leads them into habits of crime ? — llepeatedly. I may mention that I have ob- tained evidence on that subject from different individuals, and different parts of the country. I believe you have information from the governor of the jail here. Captain MiUer of Glas- gow, in a commimication which he made to our society here, says, — " Shoidd farther infor- mation of any kind regarding the state of jjauperism here be required, I shall be glad to furnish it, if in my power, as I think it imperatively tiecessary, not merely on the ground of humanity, but also as a means of repressing crime, that some better provision should be made for the destitute poor, and particularly in the populous districts of the countiy. I need scarcely say, that, from the natm-e of my duties, I have opportunities of seeing the actual wants and privations of the poor, and the tendencies of those on their moral condition, to an extent not falling imder the eye of every one, and which induces me the more, though I can ill spare time, to wish to be of service, if I can, in ameliorating their condition." I can give evidence to the same purpose from Aberdeen, from Mr Watson, the sheriff-substitute there, who says — " In this city, 280 children, under 14 years of age, are known to maintain themselves by begging, having no other visible means of subsistence ; and 77 children, only about one- half of whom could either read or write, were, within the last 12 months, inmates of oiu* prisons." — " It requires little foresight to discover that children of 8 or 9 years of age, sent, day after day, to beg their bread, will acquire restless idleness, which will unfit them for steady industry ; and it has been ascertained that a great number of juvenile beggars become practised thieves." " All attempts to put a stop to juvenile vagrancy have liitherto proved ineffectual, because many of the children have no other means of subsistence ; and, to avoid the pangs of hunger, they resort to begging." I can point out tlu-ee women, one a widow, and two desert.ed females, for all of whom I applied to the charity workhouse for relief, and was refused. Two of them have now, however, got on the parish roU. These women had each of them children who were eent out to beg. Two of them have been ti-ans- POOR LAW INQUIRY COM^IISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 77 ported for theft, and a tliird is now In confinement. I am very confident that those three women were of such a character that they would have brought up their children respectably if they could have done it. They were forced to send out theu- children to beg, and they came to associate with young thieves. I have seen letters from the two who have been banished, which show that there is no want of affection on the part of the children ; and, no doubt, their crime was very much to be traced to the destitution of the parents. This contrasts strongly with the state of this matter at Manchester, where, Sir Charles Shaw states, there is little or no crime which can be traced to destitution. 1550. You spoke of the unwillingness of the poor to go back to the country parishes, though they did not originally come to the town to gain a settlement — have any particular instances of that come within your knowledge ? — Yes ; if you will show me the list of those I gave in of persons refused assistance, I wiU point out several in that predicament. [Dr Alison marked with a cross, six of the names on the list.] I have reason to believe that the whole of these six do not wish to go back, although they think they have a cLaim to be put on the poor roU. 1551. Have you reason to know the cause of their unwillingness to go back ? — The inade- quacy of the allowance in then* own parishes. I do not say they gave that as the reason ; but iJP pressed, I have no doubt they would state that as the reason. 1-552. Did you ever hear any of them state any such reason ? — I have heard many of them say, it is a very poor parish ; they do very little for the poor there, and we are better where we are. You wiU find tliis stated in my Illustrations, &c., p. 5., by the treasurer of the house of refuge, that " many of the most destitute poor, even the lame and blind, entitled to aid from country parishes, refuse to leave Edinburgh, because little or nothing is done for the poor in their parishes." Then some of the clergymen, visitors of the Destitute Sick Society, and medical men, who have returned answers to the queries on these subjects, lately cu-culated in Edinbm-gh, state it to be a fact consistent with their personal knowledge, that " many destitute persons hving in Edinburgh are entitled to assistance in other towns or country parishes, but do not claun it." In the same pamphlet from which I quote, the ques- tion is put, — "Are many living in Edinburgh entitled to assistance from other towns or country parishes, but not obtaining or claiming it ? General answer. — Nine answer, ' Yes.' Drs Brunton and Hunter answer, ' There is no doubt there are.' Mr M'Intosh says, ' In country parishes very little is done for the poor ; consequently, a great number resort to Edinburgh, and get upon the charitable institutions tiU they obtain a parish right." I made out formerly a hst myself of forty-eight poor famOies " all living in the most destitute state in Edinburgh, who have as yet no parish claim on it, but state themselves to be parish- ioners of other parts of Scotland, to which, however, they will not retmn." 1553. And within your own knowledge you have reason to believe they woidd not go back, because the allowance is insufficient? — Yes. I shoidd like, particularly, that the Commission should examine some of these persons ; I can send for them should you wish it. 1554. WiU you give us the list you speak of? — I have it not now, because these people fluctuate so rapidly ; but it is easy to find a considerable number of them. I do not know that I could readily find as many now as when I made out the list, because the great desti- tution in Edinbm-gh being kno-mi, the number of poor coming here is not at present so great. 1555. Of those parties who do not go back, do you know whether the majority belong to assessed or unassessed parishes ? — I cannot be cei'tain as to that. 1556. Is there any way of ascertaining the number of peraons that have come to Edin- burgh — say for the last five or six years. Suppose we wanted to have a list of the nvunber of persons in destitute circumstances, who have come for the last six years to Edinburgh, — coidd it be ascertained ? — I do not think there are any means of ascertaining it. You coiJd find, perhaps, the number of those who go to the lodging-houses. 1557. But do they not make application for relief somewhere ? — No, a great proportion come for work, and do work a httle. When they fall out of it, they become destitute, and beg. 1558. Do you conceive that there is much spirituous liquors consumed by these people ? — I think the quantity consumed by tlie very destitute people is small, — very much, perhaps, from inability to get it, — much smaller than by those in a rank somewhat higher. Among the working-classes there is a great consumption. I always distinguish between the working- classes and the poor ; the poor are those who are unable to maintain themselves by work, or to find work. There is also a great consiunption of spirits among a class higher than the working-classes, — the tradesmen. 1559. Are you aware that the use of spirits tends to destitution ? — Yes, it does. A num- ber of the working-classes are reduced to destitution from that habit ; but there is a pretty considerable number who, notwithstanding the habit of drinking, have raised themselves to independence, and even to opulence. I have known several striking examples of this. 1560. I suppose you mean that instances to that effect occur merely here and there? — Of course, the number who raise themselves to opvdence is not gi-eat ; but of those who do, I have kno'mi a considerable number who had the habit of intemperance, and killed themselves by it. 1561. Have you traced the high average number of deaths in Glasgow and Edinburgh to the low legal allowance given to the poor ? — ^Not exclusively ; but to destitution, of which, low allowance is part of the cause. 1562. Would you not account for that by the habits of the people and theu- diet ? — I doubt if there is much difference between the people of Glasgow and those of Liverj^ool and Man- chester in intemperance. There has been of late a considerable diminution of intemperance, but an increase in destitution. There are more public houses in Glasgow than here ; but the great consumption of ardent spirits is by people who are not destitute, and never come into a state of destitution, the workmg-classes, and the people above the working-classes. Examinations. Dr W. P. Alison . '.) March 1843. 78 anNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Ex&niinations. Dr W. P. Alison. 9 March 1843. 1563. On the whole, it seems to be your opinion that intemperance does not lead to des- titution ? — No, it is one of the causes, but by no means the most powerful cause. The great cause is over-population. One of the most powerM causes of destitution in individual cases is mental weakness. A great number of those who are long destitute are those who want energy of character : when once down these people never rise again. Those who want energy of character are those who fall most irrecoverably. This is stated by IVIr Bosanquet in his book. 1564. Do you not think that it woidd have a beneficial effect on the poorer classes, and render destitution less frequent, if less encouragement were given to the use of ardent spirits ? — It would have some effect, but not a very material effect, on destitution, because the great cause of all is redundancy of population. 1565. Is there more redundancy in Edinburgh and Glasgow than in the English manu- factming towns ? — Yes, for a great many of them there go back to their native parishes. I took three days last summer to go through Manchester with the relieving and dispensary officers, and 1 am certain the evidence of redundant population is not so strong there as in Edinbm'gh and Glasgow. 1566. Is it your opinion that an increased allowance would give a stimulus to population? — I think not ; on the contraiy, my firm conviction is, that increased allowance in the case of widows, enabling the parents and relatives of orjjhan children to bring them up with better habits, would greatly diminish the tendency to over-population ; for all those persons living in a state of destitution are exceedingly improvident in all respects, and in nothing more than in regard to popidation. 1567. Do you conceive that it woidd be possible for such persons, with an increased allow- ance, to look after their children, and at the same time to look out for employment for them- selves ? — With an increased allowance, I have no doubt a great many would bring up their childi-en respectably. A number of poor women with energetic minds, or having some con- nexion with the upper ranks, find employment, and bring up their children respectably, and particularly those who receive stated allowances from charitable neighbours, besides those from the charity workhouse, bring up their children respectably, get them to school, and ap- prenticed to trades ; but many, although well disposed, without sufficient power of mind, cannot, as they are now situated, bring up their children, and would do it much better with increased allowance. This is the result of all the observations I have made, and it is qiiite in accordance with the general fact, that where there is an effective provision, popidation does not make such great strides, as it does where great numbers of the poor are continually in a destitute state. I may mention an instance of this habitual improvidence that I have observed: — AVhen an epidemic, the small-pox, comes round, those women whom I have kno^^Ti to be living destitute, never think of having their children vaccinated. Numbers of them apply to me for advice, when their children are afflicted with small-pox ; this arising altogether from their own improvidence, in not having them vaccinated, being in the habit of looking out from day to day for bread for the day, never looking forward to the fiiture. I could point out various instances of women of good character, who have long lived in desti- tution, who have lost their children by smaU-pox, having neglected to get them vac- cinated. 1568. Might not their improvidence be the result of immoral character ? — No, the people of whom I speak have as good a character as the class above them. I speak of widows — a blind ^vidow is one of them. Her destitution is completely accounted for by the death of her husband, and her own blindness. 1569. Do you think that increased allowance woidd stop up the resources coming from the upper ranks ? — No, it has not that effect in England— I speak now of those admitted to allow- ances as proper objects of relief. The allowance given to them in Scotland is hardly any where more than the one-third of that given in England. 1570. Does the small allowance tend to make several of a family live together? — They must do so when young ; but when they get up, a great proportion of the children leave their parents, and do nothing for them. I nave some evidence of this, — evidence as to the assistance given by the friends and relatives of paupers. I had two small districts of the town investigated carefidly by two of the missionaries. Mr Westwater gives this account of 48 families in regard to assistance from relatives. In only some of those cases was any regular assistance from relatives, not living in the family, obtained. [See lUustrations of the Scottish System, p. 14.] Mr Dalziel examined the condition of the people in Car- ruber's Close, which is, for the most part, inhabited by respectable artizans. Out of 76 families, he found 19, comprising 46 persons, in a destitute state. " The parochial aid distributed among these 19 families is less than 4s. a week; 3 of them have Is. a week each, from the societies for indigent old men and women ; several others have a little assistance from the clergyman of the parish ; and only one is noted as having any assistance from rela- tions." In the country it is better. I quote from Mr Scott's account of Peterhead : — " It may be observed, in the published abstract, that a great number of the paupers on the roll have relatives, ascendant and descendant, who are legally bound for the maintenance and support of their parents and children respectively. These cases have been individually re- viewed ; and, unless in a very few instances, it would scarcely seem expedient to call upon the parties to implement the obligation, farther than they may be inclined to do so ex pietate. The effect of attempting to enforce the claim on relatives would, in many instances, be to reduce industrious individuals and families, themselves struggling to obtain an independent livelihood, to the condition of paupers, and thus ultimately to increase the number and claims of the poor. In the south of vScotland, the condition of the paupers is better. Mr Stewart, near Lockerby, gives the following account of an investigation by liim : — POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 79 "18 Widows Received some assistance, — 5 from one daughter alone; 4 from one son alone ; 1 from a grandson ; 1 from a sister, a far- mer's wife ; 1 from a brother, a farmer ; 6 from two or tluree sons and daughters. 8 Ditto Get no assistance. 5 Single Women Received assistance — 3 from children, and from other relatives. 13 Ditto Received none. 7 Men Received assistance — 4 from one daughter alone; 2 from one son alone ; and 1 from two cliildren. 7 Ditto Received no assistance." In all (11 from one daughter each, 7 from one son each, 7 from more than two children, 5 from other relatives) 30 assisted, and 29 imassisted. Among those who are unassisted, 2 or 3 only are marked as having childi'en able, but refusing, to give any aid to their parents. The amount of aid which the 30 receive is not great ; a consideration of the common earn- ings of a workman will show inability, even in the best case, to provide for an aged parent ; and imdoubtedly it is only by great self-denial they are enabled to do so. "Wlien hired at service, their wages do not average from 41. to 5/. a year ; and yet they almost invariably pay house rent for their disabled parents. Mr Stewart adds to this — " I have inquired a little into the means of living of the poorer classes of this district ; and to do this the more satisfactorily, I have attempted to ascertain the real standard of living enjoyed by the labom-ing population, who are not in destitution, and who have the usual measm-e of employment ; for poverty is only a comparative term, and we only arrive at a right sense of its pressiu-e, and of its claims for relief, when we ascertain how far it falls short of possessing the usual means of living enjoyed by the labouring population in general, simple as that style of living may be. In making this inquiry, or rather calculation, I have been rather surprised to find how far short the yearly income of oiu" agricultural labouring families falls, when compared vnth that of the same families in England. I had been led to consider them as not much different in amount, because the weekly wages there are usually quoted, and correctly, I believe, at from 9s. 6d. to 10s. 6d., which is not much different from our usual daily wage here of 16d. in Avinter, and 20d. in summer. But it appears that the English labouring family make a yearly income, averaging, as far as I can learn, somewhat above 30/., wliUe here I cannot make out that they average above 21?. or 22/., if so much; and this arises mainly, no doubt, from their having much more partial employment. I have also endeavoured to make out how this income is spent, — what they spend severally on house rent, food, ftiel, clothes, and smaller incidentals ; and then, simple as this manner of living is, it appears all the more shamefid that so many thousands should be allowed to struggle through a debased existence, with not half the amount of means necessary to procure this living. It is true, that, as in Ireland, they seem almost at a loss how in the workhouses there to make the diet simple enough to be in accordance with the habits of the country, so also here there must be a proportion in this respect maintained ; and we cannot properly compare the scale of ovu- allowances directly with those in England ; yet when we take the 8d. to Is. a week, and even add to it any other possible means which the paupers may procure, averaging, I think, little more than equal to 6d. a week more, we have only to take the cost and scale of living customary in the country, and see distinctly enough the sad dis- crepancy, to see how they are necessarily driven from every thing like comfort in food, fuel, and clothing." " I am aware of nearly the same account being applicable to all Dumfries- shire and Kirkcudbrightshire, and I have been much stiiick with the similarity of the ac- counts of Peeblesshire and also of St Andrews, contained in your last publication, which makes me Infer that there is a considerable similarity In the condition of the laboiuing classes all over the lowlands of Scotland, though I am aware of some difference in regard to Ber- wickshire and East Lothian." " In one conclusion I must continue to differ from you, viz. that the management of the poor in country districts is righty entrusted, as at present, to the Mrk-sesslon and heritors of the parish, to be overruled only by a local court of law. It seems very radlcal-hke to find fault with these respectable bodies of individuals, or rather, as I should say, bodies of respect- able Individuals, who would indeed, a priori, appear to be the natural guardians of a parish. But I think experience may teach us that they are not to be depended on in their present constitution in this respect." " I think we should not be ashamed to copy our great and prosperous neighbour England in this respect. They have found a representative system to be the right one for the liberal administration of all affairs, and though there has been an in- terference lately on the part of the central government, the same representative system is still maintained. Here the heritors take Uttle interest In the management of the poor ; they merely guard their purse-strings, and control the minister. Having spent a week in Cambridge lately, 1 was pleased to notice what I conceived to be the effect of the present union boards of guardians, in having excited In the members of It (and I believe this is common in England) a general care for the labouring classes, and a very general formation at present of Benefit and and Medical Assistance Societies for the Unions, on the principle of mutual insurance, adding some premium from the subscriptions of the gentry : the Blanket and Clothing Societies, on the same principle, seem quite common through the parishes. These show a right spirit and a right interest In regard to the labouring class and to the poor, and it tells in favour of these two points, viz. that the administration of the poor law seems to be adjusted on a right prin- ciple, and also that the great burden of the mamtenance of the poor being provided, this, in place of checking other charity, stimulates it, giving it hope of rightly overtaking its task, which, in this country, is old of the question ; — it is here labouring in a mire, and only Individual devoted labourers are found exerting themselves in this duty." — Mr Stewart. Examinations. Dr W.P.Alison, a March 1843. 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFORE THE EiamiQations. nr W. P. Alison. '.) Marcli 1843. 1571. Has the assistance given by the poor to each other a good moral effect? — Yes ; yet you cannot depend on the existence of a permanent good feeling towards one another. They are always quarrelling, just beciftise they are dependent on charity from the higher ranks, and become jealous of each other. Nothing is so difficult as to get at the truth of their accusations against one another. 1572. Do you think there would be more or less kindly feeling among them if they were pecuniarily independent of each other ? — There would probably be a less general diffused kind of feeling, but it would be more permanent, just as in the higher ranks. You can depend more on good feeling to each other among the working classes than among the destitute. The strongest evidence we see of family affection is among those who are independent of anything like charitable relief. 1573. Have you had any opportunity of knowing, or of forming an opinion in regard to parishes that are assessed, and parishes that are non-assessed, and whether there is any dif- ference in the condition of the destitute in these parishes ? — I have no personal knowledge. I have been told in regard to this, but I cannot speak from my own knowledge. It is certain that in the non-assessed parishes in the higldands, there is a much greater amount of desti- tution than in the assessed parishes in the lowlands. 1574. Have you ever found such destitution in country parishes as you have found in Edinburgh ? — I have not kno\\'n much of the country parishes. 1575. Have you observed whether a considerable part of the allowance paid to paupers in town has been appropriated to whisky ? — ^I should think the portion very small. I know that a different statement was made, but I think hastily. Mr Waugh, formerly treasurer to the charity workhouse, stated that he believed that the greater part of what was given by the charity workhouse went to spirits. Now, I believe it to be easy to show, that the greater amount goes to the landlords. It is on this allowance that the landlords depend for their rents. I am convinced it might be proved that the largest jiroportion of the allowance goes there. A considerable number of the paupers are given to drinking, no doubt, and in- dulge in it where there is an opportunity ; but, that the greater part of the allowance is spent in this way, I take to be an absurd assertion. This was inquired into by Mr Wallace, and another of the managers, who gave an opinion quite different from that given by Mr Waugh. 1576. In regard to the alteration in the law, you spoke of the law of settlement, wishing the period of residence to be altered to ten years, will you state more particidarly what other alterations you would wish in the poor law ?— There are two other important alterations which I would like to see ; one is, that the proceedings of the kirk-sessions, or of the mana- gers of the poor, ought to be submitted to control by some accessible comt. At present they exercise a power altogether irresponsible. I think it plain that the decision of the Court of Session the other day confirms my statement, that their conduct, over almost the whole country, has been, not to fulfil the law as it stands. 1577. Would you propose to vest a controUing power in the sheriff? — I do not pretend to be a judge as to where that power should be placed ; but probably the sheriff courts in Scot- land might be the shortest way for having the proceedings of kirk-sessions, or the managers of the poor, controlled. In Germany, the management of the poor is on a good footmg. The paupers know where to have their relief, and how to have it enforced when refused ; but it seldom happens that in practice they have occasion to have recoiu"8e to that con- trolling power. Appeals are very rare. 1578. Do you allude to any particidar state In Germany? — The paper from which I quote, and which is quoted by Dr Chalmers in his late work, refers particularly to Prussia ; but I believe it is the general practice in Germany. 1579. Has not the low rates in Scotland proceeded on the idea, that a small rate of allowance Mas the best for tlie poor themselves? — In a great measure from that. 1580. If, therefore, it could be shown that the legal rate of allowance was more advanta- geous to the poor, would not that opinion alter the practice of the different bodies ? — I do not think you can have any reliance on tliat opinion being so disseminated as to alter the practice ; particularly as, in opposing it, they wiU be consulting their own interest. 1581. Ilasitnot also been the idea, that, according to law, they were not required to give full allowance to the poor ? — I believe it to have been a general idea over Scotland, in kirk- sessions, that the provision for the poor was an evil, and that their duty to the public was to keep the evil down as much as possible. This was an impression which fell in with their personal interest, and it is not easy to remove it. 1582. If it were possible to construct bodies that would be more likely to give a larger allowance, woidd not this be better than to give a power of appeal ? — I hardly think that any com"t could be constituted for the application of the law, from which a power of appeal would not be advisable. 1583. Is It not an unfavourable relation for the board to be placed in, to dispense relief towards those that receive It, knowing that paupers may appeal to another power ? — To a certain degree ; but I apprehend that to be a minor evil. That relation must subsist in Ger- many, and there is no complaint. 1584. Do you consider the allowance In England to be generally too small? — No; the allowance to aged and disabled persons there, I believe to be a fair allowance. 1585. There is no power of appeal in England ? — There used to be so ; there is In the case of persons perfectly Impotent. The magistrate has the power of enforcing their relief, with the alternative of the workhouse. 1586. Are you aware, that although a magistrate, in certain cases, has the power of order- ing outdoor relief, yet he ha« no power of fixing the amount to be received ? — The allowances POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 81 in England were gradually fixed pretty uniformly over the country, and this during a time Examinations. when there was a constant power of appeal, frequently exercised, to the nearest magistrate. . I believe they have been kept up by the force of public opinion, which i-uns very strongly in y Mareh^S^" England in favour of the administration of liberal relief to aged and disabled persons, widows, and orphans. But if the power of appeal in England continues to be withheld, I should think it doubtful if the liberal allowance will be long kept up. Besides, I apprehend that in Eng- land there is a power of appeal to the assistant commissioners. 1587. Are you aware that the commissioners are actually restrained by law from interfer- ing with relief in individual cases ?— I do not know that. 1588. Have you any personal knowledge of the situation of parochial relief in England, in countiy parishes ? — I lived in a country parish in England till I was ten years old, and I have heard of the state of the poor from my father, who took pains with his parish in Eng- land ; - and I have obtained information personally, and by correspondence, from different parts of England. 1589. Independently of the alterations in the poor law which you have suggested, have you any others to state ? — -The only other is, that the unemployed poor — those of them in regard to whom it can be shown that they have become destitute from want of employment • — should have relief. In the present state of the country, when the demand for labour is fluctuating, there should be a regular system of legal relief for those who become destitute from want of employment. 1590. \Mth what safeguard would you give relief to that class ? — The experience acquired in England, and, according to my belief, in other nations, will point out provisions of that kind. The proper safeguard, in many parts, would be the workhouse test ; in other parts of the country the labour test would be the best. At the same time, I think it right to say, that I believe, in the present situation of manufacturing districts, occasions of great destitution wiU occur, for which we can hardly suppose that any permanent poor law can make provision, and for which some kind of extraordinary assistance, in one way or other, seems indispensable. It has always appeared to me, that the best example we have of a provision for such occasional emergencies, is in the case of Austria, wher ethere is a reserved fund, at the disposal of com- missioners in Vienna, ready to be applied to any district where it can be shown, that, from in- evitable circumstances, the ordinary funds for the poor have become deficient, and where ex- traordinary local efforts are at the same time made. The sum raised by the Queen's letter in England was a reserved fund in Ijondon to a small amount, but applied on the same principle. 1591. Do you think that, in the nu-al districts, the plan of not gi-anting relief to able- bodied men works well ; — I believe it has the effect of driving some of the able-bodied into the towns, where their labour is not wanted. I have known formerly, — it is not so much the case of late, however,— a number of poor Highlanders thrown out of employment in consequence of changes in the management of highland estates, who have come to Edinburgh, to Glasgow, and to Dundee, when their labour was not wanted, and when great destitution prevailed among them ; in consequence of which their families were very poorly brought up. 1592. Without reference to the highland and lowland districts, do you think the present system works well ? — I think there can be no district in which some provision for the un- employed is not desirable ; but in the lowland districts which are well managed, and where the occupations are healthy and the habits of the people good, and the demand for labour steady, I apprehend that the demand for any well regidated relief of that kind would be very small ; and that any such change in the law as I should think desirable would make very little practical difference in these districts. 1593. Would not the erection of a workhouse in these districts, and the sums required in the management, occasion considerable expenses to the inhabitants?— No doubt it would; but a workhouse properly managed, Avoidd relieve them so far of the poor whom they at present main- tain. If there were an alteration in the law of settlement, it would certainly happen that country parishes would have a number of the poor thrown back upon them who are now in towns, or their provision would be chargeable on the country parishes. For example, you will see in the following list of paupers in Edinbm-gh that a great number eome from country parishes : — PLACES of NATIVITY of 871 Out-Pensioners of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse. Edinburgh, 259 Brought forward, 658 Mid-Lothian, 70 Ayrshire, 9 Perthshire, 50 Argyleshire, 8 Invcmess-shire, 43 Roxburghshire, 8 Ross-shire, 39 Stirlingshire, 7 East-Lothian, ... 32 Renfrewshire, ... 5 Caithness, ... ... ' 33 Dumfriesshire, ... 5 Sutherland, 31 Forfarshire, 5 Fife, 31 Other parts of Scotland, , 45 Lanark, 31 Ireland, 84 Orkney and Shetland, ... 16 England, 24 West-Lothian, ... 12 America, 2 Berwickshire, ... 11 Spain, 1 Carry forward, ... 658 871 I have illustrated this further in my Illustrations, and in the Reports of the Association in Edinburgh, laid before the Commissioners. M 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniiimtioiis. 1594. Would you contemplate providing for the aged and tlie impotent in the workhouse? — ^I think that matter -well arranged in England ; a certain number of them are in the work- s» Maicli 1813 ' house — tliose wlio have no relations to take care of them, and those of bad character. If the allowances in'England were granted in Scotland, a certain proportion of the pcojJe would be disposed to abuse them, and the proper remedy is to offer such the workhouse. 1595. Then, without reference to the able-bodied, would you think it advisable, in those well managed districts, to have workhouses for the impotent ?— 1 should think that work- houses in some of the nearest towns, with the power of receiving those who abuse their al- lowances in country parishes, and generally for able-bodied persons who fall into destitution, would be proper ; but I really believe that the demand in such districts woidd be small. 1596. But would not these districts be dissatisfied with the expense of maintaining work- houses ? — One workhouse would answer for a large district ; and of course the expense on any part would be small. 1597. Is there anything farther which you would wish to suggest beyond what you have stated ? — I woiUd wish to make one statement in regard to the cpiestion of the connexion of fever with destitution — epidemic fever. This has several times been disj)utcd ; and what I said has been misrepresented. It has been said that I maintained that destitution was the cause of fever ; whereas I have expressly said that I do not maintain that destitution has power to engender fever, nor that it is the sole cause of the general extension of fever, but only that it is one cause for the extension of fever — so powerful, that it may be idways sus- pected in any large district where fever is found repeatedly to occur and spread extensively ; and I have never read anything to contradict this assertion. Now, we know that in Glasgow the mortality from fever has been as liigh as 20 per cent, of the whole mortality. In 1837. In Dimdee it has been 15 per cent., and nearly 11 per cent, for seven years together. In Glasgow it was nearly 12 per cent, on an average of 7 years ending in 1840 ; whereas, in no town in England has it been 8 per cent, of late years : the highest has been 7.7 per cent. ; and this difference I ascribe to the greater destitution in Scotch towns. I can show instances, even in this winter, when fever has not been very general, of its spreading immediately through destitute families ; whUe other families not so destitute, in the immediate neighbourhood of the fever, have been but partially, or not at all, affected. But it is only when fever returns epidemically — which happens, according to my experience, once in ten years, each epidemic lasting fully two years — that this result of the destitution becomes obvious. I state this as an illustration of the effects of inadequate provision for the destitute. — I beg to leave this list of incurable persons, many of them dismissed from the infirmary incurable, and incapable of maintaining themselves by work. [List given in, containing 60 names.] Dr Chalmers, who is adverse to a legal provision for general destitution, expresses himself quite distinctly as to the wisdom of a liberal public provision for incurables. Such cases as those on the list which I have given in, show how scanty and in'egular a provision exists for such cases at this moment. 1 have also another list of A^idows with one child, who, according to the general practice of the workhouse, have no allowance, although they are unemployed ; a child at the breast often dis- ables a woman for any kind of employment. [List given in, containing 11 names.] I have another list of widows and deserted wives, for whom the jH-ovision is quite inadequate, some of them getting nothing. [Given in, containing 68 names.] — I beg to quote the following from Dr Chalmers' last work, in illustration of what I said as to the j)ractice in Germany : — " Tlie whole of that country (Prussia) is divided into small districts, each comprising a moderate population. Even In the largest towns these districts never contain more than 1500 inha- bitants ; and In the smaller towns they contiiin from 400 to 1000. In villages, the manage- ment of the ftmds for relief of the poor resides in the mayor and some of the principal Inhit- bitaiits ; in the towns they are under a board of directors. These individuals are required to find out and verify the condition of the poor of their own district." Again he says — " The pau))er knows that aid must be given when necessary, and he applies to the proper autho-ity for it wlien not duly afforded ; while he Is, on the other hand, deterred from making exorbitant claims by his situation being so thorougldy known in every respect, and from ungrounded demands not being complied with." In my reply to Dr Chalmers, t have observed on this passage — " It is stated that tlie funds are raised only by donations and ])rlvate charity, each proprietor of a house, and each inhabitant of a floor or apartment, being In turn visited ; the latter generally every month by some member of the sul)-coinmittee of the direction." "It Is not distinctly stated here what the authority Is which is thus empowered to enforce the law ; but Mr Senior has elsewhere obser^-ed, that in all parts of Germany the laws for the relief of the poor are strictly and uniformly enforced ; and that the actual Intervention of the law should be seldom required is easily conceived, because, in all cases where it is distinctly under- stood that a compulsory power is in readiness, the occasions for Its exercise will not be numerous." 1598. Independently of the legal provision for the poor, are there not many public charities in Edinburgh?— A great number. A very large number of those persons who, in England, receive relief from the poor-i-ates, never here think of applying to the parish. Their appli- cations are all to the charitable societies. They consider it all town's money ; but it is given entirely by charitable Individuals. I may particularly mention the Destitute Sick Society. 1599. If the allowance received were increased, would not that have the effect of check- ing private subscriptions to charities? — To a certain degree; but it would take off" the appli- cants to those charities. 1600. Do you know whether the Individuals who subscribe to the different charities in Edinburgh, are very much the same individuals? — Very much the same. The mmiber of per- sons who subscribe to all the charities, I believe, is under 1000. If anything like the English system were established here, the greater part of what Is now given by the Destitute Sick Society; by the Strangers' Friend Society; by the House of licfuge; by the Old Men's POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 83 and the Old Women's Societies; by the Society for Incurahles; by the Night Refuges; nearly Examiiuuion*. one-tliird of what is done by the Infinnary and Lying-in Hospital, and of what is done by ~-; — . the Dispensaries and Lock Hospital,— all at the expense of the charitable portion of the y March U43" inhabitants in Edinburgh, — would be provided for by assessments, over the whole inhabitants, or, in many instances, assessments extending to other parts of the country. IGOl. When you were asked whether you were aware of the existence of destitution in the country similar to that which exists in Edinbui-gh, you mentioned the case of highland parishes, — Is it consistent with your knowledge, that, from peculiar circumstances, these parishes do not afford a fair average of the state of Scotland just now? I allude to the doing away recently with the manufacture of kelp, by which a large factitious population was brought together in the highlands and islands ? — I am perfectly aware of that ; but it is just one of the evidences of a deficiency of legal provision, that that change in the demand for labour, produced such an amount of destitution. Some of the witnesses examined before the House of Commons think that the doing away with the manufacture of kelp had nothing to do with the distress, ascribing it chiefly to the change in the mode of management in the inland farms, throwing gi-eat numbers of people out of employment, and these crowded to the sea-shore for what employment they could get there. I beg leave to quote from the evidence of Mr Mackenzie, and others: — " Different causes have no doubt been concerned in producing the excessive population there existing (highlands and islands) ; and there is a difference of opinion, even among practical observers, as to the influence of each ; some attribute the evil chiefly to the kelp manufacture, and its failure ; while others maintain, appa^ rently on good grounds, that, in certain districts at least, the kelp has had very little to do with the matter. Some ascribe the excessive population to the practice of subletting farms ; while others assert that the pi-actice was adopted as a means of providing for an excessive population already existing. 1602. I did not puf the question with a view to entering upon the state of the highlands; but am I to understand your former answer to this effect, that you are not actually aware of a state of destitution existing In any of the lowland parts of Scotland similar to what exists in Edinburgh ?— I have been assured that, in many parts of the small towns in Scotland, there is a great amount of destitution ; and the inhabitants of those towns maintain, that a great part of it comes from agricultural districts In their neighbourhood, the aged and dis- abled labourers being forced out of them. I may mention Dumfries and Kirkcudbright as towns whei-e I have heard tliis stated, and also Lanark, Ayr, and Campbelltown. 1 603. Do you mean that they are driven into the town of Lanark ? — I am so informed. I beg to refer you to Mr Gibson's Sanitary Report. 1604. From what j'ou have stated in regard to the lowlands of Scotland, do you beUeve that there can be a strong motive for parties in Edinburgh refiising to go back to lowland parishes, in consequence of the smallness of the support there ? Do you think the motive wotdd operate strongly on a pauper resident in Edinburgh to induce him to remain in it ? — In regard to the condition of the poor who are resident in lowland parishes, I believe in many instances their condition is comfortable enough, but the I'cason of that is, that in some dis- tricts many of their poor have left their parishes and come to the to^vns. 1605. You stated that a number of persons, although they had a legal residence in country parishes, refused to go back to their parishes in consequence of the inadequacy of the allow- ance, preferring to remain in Edinburgh. Now, from what you have stated, do you think that the motive to wldch you fomierly referred, could have operated much with those per- sons ? — Although the condition of the poor who remain in the parish may be good, if the management of the poor there is such, as to di-ive many from them into the towns, they ynH be imwiUing to return to the parish. The inadequacy of the provision for them is the cause, — that is what has been stated to me ; how far it is the case in individual instances, I have not the means of judging. 1606. Are you aware if this is the fact; that it is a very common feeling among the Scotch people, when reduced to circumstances of poverty, that they do not like those circumstances of poverty to be known In that part of the country from which thpy orlginaUy came ? — I believe that to be quite true. 1607. You stated that you would prefer ten years' residence, but that you approved of the settlement by Industrial residence ; Is It not the fact that the poor parts of the popu- lation frequently change their places of habitation ? — Yes, frequently ; but if they had the prospect of getting employment In or near Edinburgh, and knew that they could fasten themselves on any of the parishes, they could easily find a residence in any one of the three districts. 1G08. The point I want to bring out is this; might it not be the fact that a man remained thirty years in Edinburgh, and yet might not have lived ten years in any of the three parishes of Edinburgh, Canongate, and the West Church ? And after giving the whole of his industrial residence to the city, might, notwithstanding, be thrown back upon his original parish? — We have many people who have lived many years in town, unable to make out a residence from having moved from one district of the town to another ; and in any such case, according to my idea, the person would fall back on the place of his nativity. If he cannot make out a settlement by industrial residence, he can do It by nativity. If, although partially disabled, he had some employment, and was able to carry it on in the town where he was situated, he might continue to Hve there, and be assisted from the place of his nativity. In some places in Scotland they require absolutely industrial residence, and hold that charitable assistance, during that residence, disqualifies ; but I am sure that is not the case here. 1609, I think you stated that you disapproved of the condition of the poor being left to 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaininstions. Dr W. P. Alison. i» Mai cU 11143. the ministers and elders, and that you would wish paid officers ? — That is quite necessary in any place where there are many poor. AVe know that the inspection by elders has beeu very inefficient. In Aberdeen, for example, when some discussion in regard to the manage- ment of the poor took place, it was stated that it would be a great improvement if the elders woidd undertake to visit the poor of their districts twice in the year. Such an inspection as that is quite nugatory. 1 know that in Edinburgh the inspection by visitation of elders is exceedingly inefficient. IGIO. Did you state that the poor in Holland are chiefly supported by voluntary contri- butions ? — -There is an assessment that comes in aid of voluntary contributions. The voluntary contributions there seem to bo more effectively managed tlian here. And a great part of the relief to the poor there is in consequence of old endowments. Large sums have been left to the poor at different times in different towns, and there is the assessment, besides, in Holland : it is not very great, but greater than it is in Scotland ; and it comes in aid of those endowments. 1611. You mean to say, that an assessment in Holland is competent, but not levied unless necessary ? — I do not know how it is levied, but it is raised every year ; the system has worked well for 200 years. It certainly acts under the efficient control of the law, as in all parts of Germany. 1612. Have you any acquaintance with Mr Guthrie's parish, St John's ? — Yes. 1613. Are you aware that the elders and deacons there inspect? — I know they do so there better than is done in other parts of the town ; but I do not think they have funds to make the condition of the peojJe better. 1614. If they had funds, would the inspection be sufficient? — -Voluntary inspection -is never to be depended on. In the case where the inspection took place under Dr Chalmers in Glasgow by elders, the system is given up, because the other parishes would not imitate it ; it is now as insufficient as it has been here. 1615. Supposing it was proved that in any particular parish the system of voluntary inspection answered perfectly well for ten, fifteen, or twenty years, would you consider that as the foundation of an argument for a universal system ? — Certainly not. So much would depend on the individual zeal of the parties at the time being. 1616. If reported once a year to the General Assembly, would not the system of inspec- tion be more effectual? — I would not depend on that neither. The General Assembly would have no time to look into details, on which the whole efficiency of the system must depend. ReT. John Bruce. The Rev. John Bruce, one of the Ministers of St Andrew's Chiu-ch, Edmburgh, Exammed : — 1617. You are minister of one of the city churches ? — Yes, St Andrew's church, in Edin- burgh. 1618. How long have you been minister of St Andrew's church? — About six years. 1619. You have been in the habit of visiting the poor people in your parish? — Yes. I in.ay mention that I have been much more than six years a minister in Edinburgh. I was other six years minister of the New North parish ; the district of the Lawnmarket is in that parish. 1620. Are there many paupers in your parish who receive assistance from the charity workhouse ? — More than one looking over the city would expect. There is a district in my parish not kno^\Ti to occasional visitors — Canal Street, where there is a good deal of pau pcrism. 1621. Has it been on the increase of late years ? — ^I do not exactly know : it is very much aggravated at present ; but I am not prepared to say that it has increased much of late years, in consequence of any regularly acting cause, because there has been a poorer class of people introduced into my parish of late years, — a poorer class came down from the high grounds. 1622. Are you of opinion that the allowance from the chanty workhouse to the poor is sufficiently high ? — I do not think the allowance equal to what they require. There can be but one opinion, I think, on this, — the allowance is by much too low. 1623. It is not sufficient for the aliment of poor persons ? — No. 1624. Do you think that the allowances to the poor ought to be of that amount as to be of themselves sufficient for their maintenance ? — There are different opinions among men who have studied the question, and I cannot say that I have decided ui)on it. So far as I have an opinion, I may state it. I am quite alive to the danger which Dr Chalmers appre- hends — the evils of dependence ; and I am equally alive to the danger which Dr Alison is 80 much alarmed at— the starving of the poor. I think a great deal more miglit be done than has been done, to make the present system efficient ; and I think more might be tried before it be changed. I think there is a great deal of power In the system of minute and intelligent visitation, not by paid agents, but by persons who go about devoting their atten- tion to it from principle ; and if It were possible to get an agency, such as Dr Chalmers recommends, the present assessment would be found not very Insufficient. 1625. Is it probable that such an agency coidd be got ? — Tliat Is the point on which I am difficultcd. I have spoken of it to Dr Chalmers. That is tlie difficulty in the present state of the city, where so much is done for money rather than from love. In such a state of the city, whether we could get such an agency seems to me exceedingly doubtful ; but if we could, I believe the poor's roll might be purged to much greater extent than it has been, 80 as to make the fimd more adequate to the necessities of the poor — purged by making POOR LAW INQUIRY COJiIMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 85 available to them the means which they really have, and which they themselves cannot make available. An agency such as Dr Chalmers requires, would do it much better than it is now done. I have met with instances of people who are receiving from the charity workhouse, who are in great indigence, but who have means, if they could get at them — people who have relations. I visited the east ond of Rose Street with Mr Milne. Wc came on an instance of a man to whom I myself had been giving some assistance, directly and indirectly, and I believed him to be what he seemed, miserably poor, like a scarecrow, all in rags. He could not do anything — he was thrown aside by age and infirmity ; and this man Cameron, it was whispered to me, was the laird of the house in which he lived. He admitted to me that he and his family were proprietors of the house. I said to him, " You must have deceived the charity workhouse in getting in there ?" " No," he said, " they never asked me anything about the house." I said to him, " You could not get assistance from them without giving in a schedule showing your need ?" He replied, " 1 said, 1 live here, and all of the house that fiiUs to my share is the lowest room on the ground floor. I sometimes get it let, and some- times not. The highest I get for it is 6/. a year, and I cannot live on 6/. My son is in good circumstances, — he will do nothing for mc. My daughters keep a mangle, and wiD do nothing for me. 1 must starve if I had not assistance." I believe this is a case not of fre- quent occurrence, — of a man being the proprietor of a house receiving assistance from the charity workhouse ; but I believe there are many oases of people having connexions who are able, and who might be brought to assist them. There ai'o people having children who would assist them, if they were connected with them through the medium of a benevolent individual. A great deal might be done in this way to withdraw people from the I'oU. Mr MiTne has noticed this case in one of liis publications on the subject. I would just say summarily, that I think a great deal more might be done to try whether it might not be possible to work the present system. 1626. Might not a more minute inspection have the effect of increasing cases that are des- titute, — -of discovering more than we have now ? — I do not think it would have much effect in discovering very urgent cases, for all, or almost all, very indigent cases are known. You might make discoveries of this kind, — you might discover people on the verge of pauperism ; but then a discovery of that kind made in due time would prevent, I presume, the multipli- cation of pauperism. A groat many are hanging on the brink who might, by such a system, be prevented from falling in. 1627. Do you not think, that if a sufficient number of inspectors were paid by the charity workhoiise, the system might be more efficient than it can be rendered by kirk-sessions ?^- That depends very much on the kind of inspectors, not their numerical force. The inspec- tor's chief object is to ascertain if the poor have a legal right, and if they belong to his parish. This duty is like that of a gamekeeper, to preserve the ground. 1G28. You have a more minute knowledge of the poor in the New North parish than St Andrew's ? — I had many more poor in the New North parish than I have in St Andrew's parish. I had many more poor in projiortion to the poj)ulation. 1629. What was their general condition? — Very bad indeed; but I believe they have been worse than they were six years ago. I think they have been worse from general stagnation of trade, and the general depression, which has caused a want of funds among those who might have assisted them. Generally, they are out of work. They used to com- plain much of the Irish coming in upon them. 1630. Were there many whom you conceived had a legal claim to relief, and who were not relieved ? — I do not know ; bvit I have complained myself of the great difficulty of sub- stantiating the legal claim. I found the difficulties interposed in the way of getting legal relief exceedingly painful to me. Perhaps it should not be made easy, but they fight them off in such a way that they are obliged to have recourse to occasional charity. This applies to those coming on the roll. I know the case of a woman in Canal Street, who is diseased and incurable. After her case ^ as submitted to the charity workhouse (her husband had gone away, and had been away from her for many years), they told her she belonged to Glasgow, and gave her a few shillings to convey her there. She went, and returned to me again : she had been buffeted about, and sent back from Glasgow. I am not prepared to say whether she has got anything yet. I do not think it ; but whether she has a legal claim or not, I do not know. 1631. Your experience is, that when a settlement is doubtfril, the pauper is not relieved in the meantime? — I W'Ould not say that I have had enough of experience to affirm that such is the practice. 1632. In what state are the destitute poor as to their rehgious habits? I suppose the very destitute poor cannot attend the church from want of sufficient clothing ? — Cameron, whom I have mentioned, the laird of the house, though he is in i"ags on the week days, has a coat for Sunday, and he goes regularly to church. He keeps up the habit. A good many old people keep up the habit ; but people in middle life, in that low state of indigence, fall away very much, and the excuse is, that they are in rags. The very jioor people who go to church go to churches like Lady Glenorchy's, or some other old chm-ches which they have been in the habit of frequenting. A few come up to my church, but very few. But where we do find very poor old people going to chm-ch, it is the keeping up of an old habit. Those in middle life, who have fallen into great indigence, may be said to have fallen away from religious ordinances. 1633. As to their children, are they much neglected? — A great deal more has been done for them of late years, and more than for the poor people themselves. There is more minis- twial visiting among them of late years ; and a great deal more attention is paid to children. One reason why tliis was not done before was, that it was looked on as hopeless to attempt Examiiiatiou!). Rev. Jolm Bruce. 9 March 1843. 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIiEN BEFORE TILE Bxsiii illations. to wrestle with them. It is not found so hopeless now. There are more schools now. The Heriot schools ttikc up 2000 or 2500 children of the poorest classes. I suppose there are s'il»i-.h 1B43^ means of education for most of tlie poor children of the city, although I do not know exactly. I can say of my own parish that I do not think there is any without education. We have got a good many into Heriot's school ; and we have a school of our o\\ti to which they get admission for a trifle. There is none to which it is not accessible. Then there is a gi-eater desire in the parents to send their children to school than there is m themselves to go to church, which can be easily accounted for. 1634. Is there much intemperance in the parish ? — I shotild say that I think there is not 80 much as there was. 1635. Do you attribute that to the want of the means, or that the people are becoming better, and less addicted to it ? — When the cholera broke out in the city it swept oflF a great many, and frightened a great many of the survivors from intoxicating liquors. Fear, how- ever, is very soon forgotten. But, I dare say, the temperance societies have done a great deal of good. I know instances of this. I know a man who was a roaring, swearing, drink- ing blackguard, who connected himself, six years ago, with the temperance societies. He has, in consequence, got his family up and in comfortable circumstances. He has become an apostle of temperance here. He got his son a preference to Heriot's Hospital on the account of his being a reformed drunkard. He is a poor man, and a workman, and a fit object on that ground ; but he got a preference on account of his being a reformed drunkard, and on account of his reforming others. Tempei-anee has done a great deal of good. Some of the people are so very low that if they had but sixpence they would drink it. A gi-eat many have been reclaimed by poverty, but cliiefly by joining temperance societies, and the advice of good people. Although we the clergy may not, perhaps, have done a great deal, I should be unwilling to think that we have done nothing. 1636. StiU you thhik temperance is on the increase?- — Yes; I have heard that frequently. I have heard it frequently said that there is not half the drinking that there was. Going about the poor streets, I sometimes see a man staggering, but seldom compared to what I used to see. I am decidedly of opinion that there is less drinking. 1637. Do you observe if temperance "societies include a greater number of lower Scotch, or lower Irish ? — I do not know ; but I should think a great many of them are oiu* own people. The person whom I mentioned, is a poor Scotchman, a native of Edinburgh. I do not think that the temperance society is particularly confined to the Irish ; on the contrary, a great many of our own citizens are connected with it. Were you to look to their proces- sions on the streets, you would see that a great many of them are Scotch. 1638. Were many of the pauper population in the New North parish, Irish ? — A great many. The Lawnmarket composed that parish. It was reduced before I left it to about 800, from the new improvements ; but the people, before I left them, were complaining of their being forced out by the Irish coming in upon them. 1639. How forced out? Do you mean that they forced them out of employment? — They came here and got themselves established, and divided the work with them. The Irish worked at the jobs that were going, and added to the supply of hands, and in that way cheapened the price of labour. They complained grievously of this. 1640. You had a country parish before you came to Edinburgh? — Yes, 12 years before I came here, in Angusshire, the small parish of Guthrie. 1641. Was there any assessment there ? — Not in my parish, or the parishes aroimd. The presbytery consisted chiefly of landward parishes. There was an assessment in the pai'ish of Arbroath and. the parish of St Vigians ; and in another pavish beside mine, Dunichen, where a large manufacturing village had sprung up. These were the only instances of assessment in all that district, so far as I remember. 1642. Did you consider the poor to be better or worse provided for in the countiy than in the town parish ? — Much better than in Edinburgh. One of the most painftd things to me when I came to Edinburgh, was to see the misery and poverty that prevailed. There was nothing like it in the country parish. 1643. Did the poor in the country parish receive a larger allowance, or was it from other causes that they were better off? — We had a most thorough system of inspection, without trouble. It is a small parish of about 500. I knew every body in it myself. The proprie- tor was resident, and knew every body in it, and so did the elders. We knew iiU their friends and connexions. Every body was seen to, and there were no complaints. As far as I recollect, I think the allowance at that time, which was given for this parish of 500, was always under 30Z. a year, disbursed among them, and every body might be said to be siitisfied. 1644. As far as your knowledge goes, j'ou would give the same answer in regard to country parishes generally, as to the preferable state of the poor in them, compared to town parishes? — Oh, yes. 1645. Does it strike you that any alteration in the system of administering relief to the poor in country parishes in Scotland would be for their benefit ? — In regard to my own parish in the country, and the rural parishes around it, I coidd not desire a system more per- fect. Any meddling with the system, such as I saw it in the presbytery with which I was connected, coidd not make what was a good, but what was the best system, better. It could not in fact be made better, 1646. Were the parishioners in the habit of removing to large towns ? — They were very much stationary. 1647. There was a steady demand for labour there, I suppose ? — There was. The people ■were generally occupied about country work ; and there were a few weavers who earned their webs to town. POOR LAW INQUIEY COJIMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 87 1648. You had resident heritors in that parish?— lYe had three, all of them resident. Mr Guthrie, the principal heritor, might be said to reside there the whole year, except a few months when he went to Dundee with his family ; but the estabUshment was never broken up. The second heritor resided m the parish ; and the third on the borders of it, so that they may be all said to have been resident. 1649. You had no assessment, you say? — No, we never had an assessment, — we had a small fund of lying money in the bank, yielding some 51. or 6^., and the collections. That was the provision for the poor. There was a lunatic, not confined, but going about, on the ftmd, and lodged in the parish. The cost was some Ss. or 48. a week ; and one or two burdens of that kind, which was looked on as rather heavy ; but still we managed to do without difficulty. 1650. Be kind enough to tell us your opinion of the effect of the poor laws as administered in the country parishes of Scotland, in the general character and industrious habits of the labouring classes ? — I should think they are decidedly favourable. My opinion is founded partly on this, that I saw in my poor parisliioners a great unwillingness to take off the " box," as they called it. They said, we are not reduced to that yet. They looked on it as a sort of degradation to come on the poor's fund. I do not see that generally here. I see it sometimes ; but it is not at all common. I see it perhaps in peojile who have come from the country. 1651. Would you propose to dispense with the assessment in Edinburgh? — I would be disposed to make a very gi-aduid transition, I think. A sudden pulling up would be attended with great disturbances and great distress. It has struck me often, that if a much more thorough agency were got at, it should be tried whether with the present assessment it might not bring round a better condition of the pauper without abolishing the pi-esent assessment, — by husbanding it more, and by going about the people, and encom-aging them to weU-doing. I think that withdrawing the assessment just now in a simimary way, and tlurowing ourselves on voluntary contributions, would be a very rash experunent. 1652. Have you any experience in regard to highland parishes ? — None. £xatn illations) Rev. John Bruce. 9 March 184a. Saturday, 11th March 1843. MEMBERS PEESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigle, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Hev. Thomas Guthrie, Minister of St John's Church, Edinburgh, Examined : — 1653. You are one of the ministers of Edinbxu-gh ? — Yes. 1654. How long have you been so? — -For near sbc years — five years and a half. 1655. Is that your signature attached to that paper? — Yes. 1656. Do you agree in the correctness of the statement contained in It? — Yes, I do. I agree with it as a whole. 1657. Has the system of managing the poor by the intervention of deacons been in operation in your parish for some time ? — It has been so for the last six or seven months to a certain extent. 1658. Have you had svifficient experience to say that it wUl succeed? — I have no doubt of its idtimate success, provided we could have it carried out to the necessary extent ; but it is only partially In operation. I have only half the number of deacons which I had in contemplation, and it is thei'efore only to a very partial extent that the plan has been carried into effect. 1659. Was that owing to any difficidty m getting people to undertake the duty ? — In the first instance it was partly so ; then, mine Is a newly erected chiu-ch. I have been in St John's only for three years, and I have been busily engaged in setting up machinery of different kinds ; so that I have not as yet got a sufficient organization. 1660. Have you no prospect of setting the machinery fiilly in operation? — I have the prospect, in a year or two, of getting a sufficient start. 1661. And you think the plan will succeed? — I think It wIU; but allow me to explain. We have no funds except what we receive privately, and from collections at a monthly prayer meeting. The whole funds of the Lord's day collection go to the charity workhouse. We labour, therefore, under the gi'catest possible disadvantage. 1662. Then, it is not from people being disinclined to do the duty, but from the want of means, that you have difficidty ? — We want means. Had matters remained as they were, we contemplated applying for a change in the chai-ity workhouse, and getting the money into the hands of the kii-k-session for the relief of the poor. Key. T. Guthrie. U March 184S. 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOliE THE Ejaininatkms. 1663. AYhat was tlie change you contemplated with regard to the charity workhouse? — Tiic chanoje was, that wc wished to "-et the collections into our own hands. We get not a Rev. T. Outhiie. e ^i • i- ^i. ■ ^ 11 March 1843 larthing ot them just now. 1 664. And do j'ou think the plan, if generally adopted over Edinburgh, would succeed, provided such an arrangement were brought about as yoii suggest ? — Along with other things ; provided we had a sufficient number of schools and of churches, and ])rovi(led the j)arishes were divided into manageable districts, I would bring into play a moral machinery along with it, and have an increased number of churches and schools. I may say, also, that the co-operation of the civil magistrate in drying up the great soiu-ces of crime and poverty — the multitude of public houses in the town — would be requisite. 1 665. Do you conceive that the facilities afforded for intemperance by the public houses arc one of the great sources of destitution ? — I have not a doubt of that, from my own experi- ence. Three-fourths of the poverty in Edinburgh is owing to that. 1 speak of the districts of the town I am accpiainted with. 1666. What particular part of theto^^'n does your parish include? — ^Vhy, when I speak of my experience, I s})cak of it as acquired in two parishes. I was first in the Old Greyfriars, in- cluding that part of the Old Town which extends from the Cowgate Head down to the South liridge. The parishes have, to some extent, been lately altered. My present parish includes part of the Grassmarket, the Lawnmarkct, and is bounded on one side by George IV. Bridge. 1667. Your district includes a great portion of the most destitute parts of the town ? — Yes. 1668. Has the number of Irish increased very much of late years? — Very much ; so nmch, indeed, that they arc almost in entire possession of some closes in my parish. 1669. Does what you say with regard to intemperance apply to them as well as to the Scottish population in the parish ?— -Yes ; but I would require to be very carefiil about that answer ; for some of the Irish are very hard-working and decent men : but as to intemperance, it is much the same among all, though, I must say, there is an improvement among the Irish since the teetotal system was introduced. 1 670. Do you think that any increase of the allowance made at present from the charity workhouse fimds to the poor, given in the same manner, would have any perceptible good effect ? — If you ask me if an increase of the charity workhouse funds would have any perceptible effect on the people, I wovdd say that it would be a good thing ; but, if you mean an increase distributed in the same manner, then I have very great doubts. 1671. Have you a doubt with respect to the effect of an increase, weU managed? — I have no doubt with respect to an increase well managed, though I doubt about it, as the matter is at present managed ; because I think the management of the charity work- house radically bad. 1672. Will you state the grounds of your opinion? — I think, in the first place, that there is not such a distinction made by the managers with regard to the habits of the people as ought to be made. A large ])ortion of those who receive relief are given to habits of dissipation. There is no check in the management, as applied to these parties. If a party receiving 4s. were raised to 8s. of allowance, from the habits of a great many of those who get aliment, it would be only 4s. additional thrown away. 1673. You are aware there is but one inspector for the Edinburgh charity workhouse? — There is but one man for overlooking the whole poor of Edinburgh, which has always appeared to me perfectly absurd. I wish to say what has always occurred to me as the best mode of managing the charity workhouse. I woidd not leave the dissolute poor to starve, but the principal use of a charity workhouse is, that it should be a house of refuge or a penitentiary for those people. All should be taken into the workhouse who cannot make a proper use of the charity they receive ; and a much larger pension should be given to those who are out of the charity workhouse, and who are decent and well-behaved people. 1674. But you think that a better system of inspection should be adopted ?— Surely ; but the inspector can know nothing about the habits of the people, without a far more thorough inspection. 1675. Do you think that, Avith the advantage of that additional inspection, it would be possible to make an allowance to the outdoor poor more liberal, and that the system would work in an efficient manner ? — Yes, with sufficient inspection. 1676. By paid inspectors? — Why, I certainly should prefer the old system of inspection by deacons ; but if that is not to be restored, why, then I say that there ought to be a more efficient inspection by paid officers. If you cannot get the thing done in a voluntary way by people who reside in the neighbourhood, or who make it their business to know the circumstances of the poor, then you must give more efficiency to your existing machineiy. 1677. Do you think it desirable to have increased accommodation in the workhouse for the description of persons to whom you alluded ? — Why, I suspect if these parties were so received into the worldiouse, you would require additional accommodation. I have felt all along that where parties cannot make a good use of their money, they must not be abandoned. I cannot feel it to be either humanity or Christianity not to relieve those people ; but I think that in such cases the charity workhouse should take tlicra in, and a larger allow- ance be given to the decent outdoor jioor, who do make a good use of their money. 1678. Do you think the present allowances not enough? — I think them miserably defi- cient. 1679. You, of your own knowledge, can say that respectable persons with larger allow- ances would not make a bad use of them ? — In many cases they would require double what they receive ; and in many instances, people have no choice but to steal or starve. I may be allowed to add, that I kno\v the system has a most immoral effect — a most inju- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMJk^TISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 89 vious effect — on the habits of the j^eople ; and elders and deacons are averse to go among the ijoor, because they have to look upon a vast amount of temporal misery wliich they cannot relieve. I have trembled often when I have gone at the call of duty to visit the receptacles of wretchedness, because I felt that I could not relieve the miseiy which I must look upon ; and in such cases, nothmg but a sense of duty could compel me to go and visit the poor. 1G80. Do you thmk these small allowances promote a spirit of independence amongst the people? — I think the very reverse; and I shall tell you M'hy, — because they are obliged to resort to begging, which never can promote the spirit of independence among the people. 1(581. Do you think they promote kindly feehngs among relations towards each other? — No, I can't say; I think they do. No doubt, they lead relations to do something for their friends, rather than see them starve. 1(582. Is it common for parents to leave their children imder the present system? — I find many instances in which parents abandon their children. 1683. Abandon them altogether? — Abandon them altogether. 1G84. May that not arise from the knowledge that the children will be provided for by the parish? — No: I think it arises from the wretchedly low state to which they have fallen, — so low, that I have sometimes seen parents glad when their children died. 1685. Then it is your impression that the allowance is not enough? — Certainly not. 1686. It tends to destroy their habits? — It tends to destroy their habits, and to extinguish the very feelings of human natm'c. 1687. Does it tend to promote relief by the poor to the poor? — Certainly; because, if people have any feelings of humanity at all, they will not leave a poor neighbour to starve, or be neglected; and I find, in point of fact, that they do a very gi'cat deal. 1688. Suppose the allowance larger, would they assist each other as much? — If the allow- ance were such as they required, then no assistance would be needed; but if the allowance were enough for the mere necessaries of life, then, supposing a person to need something over and above, the private resources would supply such comforts. 1689. Then you would not propose to give a full allowance? — I would propose to give a full allowance of the mere necessaries of life. I think every man who is a pauper, has a right to " bread to eat, and raiment to put on." I hold it to be a public duty to take good care of the infirm, and the sick, and the aged; but if a person is reduced to poverty, from the want of work, I think it consistent neither with humanity nor Christianity that he should be left without support. I agi-ee on this point with Daniel de Foe, who says that " beggary is a shame to any country." It is a shame that those who are worthy among the poor, should be driven to beg; and it is a shame that those who are not really poor should be allowed to beg. 1 690. Would you generally give a ftiU allowance ? — If a person were unable to maintain himself, and had no relatives who could be prevailed on, by moral suasion, or otherwise, to assist him, I would give the best allowance ; but not till it had been seen what the rela- tives were prepared to do. 1691. Would that prevent the neighbours from being kind ? — Certainly not. As a full allowance, I would give bread to eat, and raiment to put on ; I would afford enough to pro- cure the necessaries of life, and there should be nothing to prevent the comforts of life from being given, independently of the allowance. 1692. Do you know whether the poor beg much from each other? — I believe they do. They assist each other both in watching over them in sickness, and in ministering to their wants. I know many instances in which the poor have supported the poor. 1693. Would there be a tendency, in the public allowance being increased, to diminish that feeling ? — I don't think there would. 1694. With reference to the system of deacons, in order to carry It out fully, you state that there ought to be additional schools and churches ? — Yes. 1695. Do you tliink that is legislatively practicable ? — Oh, that depends on the legislature. 1696. But in recommending a system of that kind ? — Oh, I confess there is a difficidty. There is a very large party of dissenters, very respectable people, and it would be very desi- rable that they should be combined, in some way, with the management of the poor. I don't think that there woidd not be practical difficulties. If you have a dissenting church, and if they appoint deacons to take the management of a district round their church, such an ar- rangement might do : but I doubt whether it is practicable, with a large body of dissenters in the country, to estabhsh the system, if they are not embraced in the scheme. 1697. But with the existing divisions and parishes, would the system of deacons work well? — Not in some cases, but in others a subdivision would be sufficient. 1698. You would not recommend the present system of deacons as a universal system ? — I have a difficulty in saying so. I don't believe it would accomplish the object fully by itself. 1699. Then you woidd not recommend it as a general compulsory plan ? — No, I don't know that I woidd, without an extension of churches. 1700. Do your observations with regard to deacons, apply to towns as weU as country parishes ? — Yes, they do. 1701. Do you think the plan might be carried on in country parishes by the kirk-sessions or by deacons ? — Yes ; I have no doubt that the plan could be carried on efficiently in coun- try parishes. 1702. Then your difficidty is only with regard to towns ? — Yes. 1703. You are well acquainted with Brechin? — Yes, it is my native place. 1704. Would the system of deacons work there ? — I have not a doubt of it. 1705. You have also been in a country parish? — Yes, I was minister of Arbirlot. 1706. Had you any difficulty in the management of the poor? — None whatever. N Examinations. Rev. T. Guthrie. 11 March 1043. 90 ItllXUTES OF EVIDENCE T.VKEN BEFORE TIIE Examinations. Rev. T. Guthrie. 11 March IMi. 1707. Were the poor in a comfortable state? — I tliink the allowance was too small ; but, on the whole, they were in a comfortable state, and our funds increased during the seven years I was there, instead of our having an assessment. 1708. Have you had occasion to observe whether people, from country parishes, were apt to migrate into towns, with the view of bettering their circumstances ? — I shall give you my idea on that subject. It is the greatest delusion in the world for peofJe to leave country parishes, such as Ai-birlot, and come to a town. 1709. Have you reason to believe that such a delusion prevails among any portion of the lower orders ? — I believe that around Edinburgh it does — not owing to the allowance given by the charity workhouse, but owing to the idea of the amount of private charity distri- buted in Edinbiu-gh. Yet this notion does not exist to the extent which is generally supposed. 1710. But to a certain extent it does ? — To a certain extent it may. I never, or hardly ever, found any, save an Irishman ; I never found a Scotchman who seemed to act from such a motive. But there is one reason why poor people come from country parishes to towns — they are driven out of the country parishes. Take the case of a ploughman. AVhen unable to do his work, he is turned oft': his cottage is transferred to another. The next best thing he can do is to turn carter, and for that purjwse he comes to towai ; but such persons do not migrate from the idea that they will be better off on account of tlie charities, or for any other reason than that they expect to get many smidl jobs which they coidd not get in the country. 1711. Do you know an instance of an individual who has come into a to^^^l because he was driven out ? — I don't at present recollect of an instance here, but I have a distinct impres- sion of people leaving Arbirlot because they had become unfit for country labour. And I have known people coming into Brecliin because they were unfit for coimtry work. 1712. "Would they have a difficulty in getting cottages in their country parishes ?^Ycs, they would. I remember an appeal which was made through me to Lord Panmure's factor, for a little ground to build a cottage, by a man who had saved a little money. What the factor said was, that the man was getting old, and he would become unable to provide for himself, and then he woidd come on the parish ; so that it was not advisable to give him what he wanted. Now, that was a principle wise enough in its o^vn way. If you have cottages, you introduce a subdivision of land such as exists in Ireland. 1713. Then such persons woidd have difficidty in getting cottages? — Quite so ; and that is one reason why there arc so many old people in towns. 1714. But, in Edinburgh, do you recollect an instance ? — If I could recal them to my recollection, I might give instances. I know instances in Edinburgh of people coming into to-Nvn from the country, but I cannot say that I have specially inquired into the causes why they came into to^vn. 1715. But in the country, you could mention such instances ? — Yes; and I have not a doubt but there are instances in Etlinburgh. 1716. Do you think it desirable at all to idter the law vnth respect to relief given to able- bodied persons ? — If the law allowed relief to able-bodied persons, I think it would be advan- tageous. 1717. It is expedient to alter the law? — ^I think it is. 1718. And if the law were altered, would you still think it right to trust the administra- tion to voluntary agents ? — So far as regards vohmtary agents, if you mean impaid, I have no hesitation about that. 1719. What securities would you propose against the abuse of relief by able-bodied per- sons ? — There is a simple check. I was on a committee of synod, appointed to make cer- tain inquiries about the poor, and I found that in one parish an arrangement, which worked well, existed. It was mentioned by the minister of the parish. The parish belongs chiefly to one family ; and their system is, to afford work at two-thirds of the usual price of labour. The system was found to Avoi'k admirably — there was peace and contentment in the paiish. 1720. You don't recollect the parish ? — No, I don't ; but I can ascertain. 1721. Supposing wages were reduced to the minimum upon which a man could subsist, woidd you propose that the rate of payment should still be two-thirds ? — Certainly ; they are at a muiunum now-a-days. But tliis could not last long ; and I woidd leave what addi- tional was required for vohmtary charity. I would say that, in Edinburgh, wages are at the minimum ; yet these hidf-employed men have contrived to subsist upon that minimum. 1722. Man-ied men with families— would you pay them according to their work, or ac- cording to the number of their families ? — I shoidd be very much disposed to pay them according to their work ; but I have not so fully considered that point as to venture an opinion. 1723. Ai*e you aware what have been the effects in England of giving relief in work to the able-bodied ? — Yes ; but I believe the system was abused in England. It woidd require strict and very vigorous management, for it is attended A\-ith very great danger. 1724. And you think voluntary agents would do? — No doubt of it. Under such extraor- dinary circumstances, they might require a paid agent to give his whole time to the matters connected with the work. 1725. Have you ever thought what would be the effect on fanners of such a system ? Would it have the effect of inducing the farmers to throw their labourers out of employ- ment, when they had no immediate occasion for their services ? — I don't see that the fanner would be a great gainer. If he gains one way, he loses another ; for he has to pay the assessment. 172(). Would all those who have to pay be fanners ? — The whole body would have to pay, landlord and fai'mer alike. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 91 1727. You don't think it would have a tendency to mduce farmers to throw their men out of employment ? — Oh, if they had nothing to pay, it would have this bad tendency. 1728. Are you aware that efforts were made by some of the ablest men in England to correct that tendency, and that they found it impossible ? — No, I was not aware of that ; but I look upon the subject in this light, that, in a christian and cinlized land, the unem- ployed poor are not to be starved ; and I prefer cmploj-ing them to shutting them up in a workhouse. I say it is the least of two evils. 1729. But if the effect of the workhouse be to induce the farmer to keep the labourer in employment dui-ing the year, -would not that alter your opinion of the workhouse ?— I don't know ; I am not sufficiently acquainted with tlie workhouse system to speak on the point ; and what I speak of would be for tunes of general distress. In country parishes, there is seldom any need for anything at all ; for if landlords would not overstock their lands with popula- tion, no diflicidty would occur ; but if they do, then the remedy I have mentioned may be brought into j)lay. .... 1730. But tlie question is rather with regard to the general right of relief being given to the able-bodied ? — 1 think they shoidd have the light. I think the system of leaving people to depend on j)rivate charity uncertain and most injm-ious. 1731. But did you find any difficidty in obtaining work for unemployed persons in your country parish ? — I believe the thing never occurred ; that is, the landlord was a very gene- rous landlord, and it never occun-ed in my time. He came forward on every exigency, taking in moors and waste lands, and thus giving employment. 1732. Then, in country parishes, the system is in a sound and healthy state? — I believe upon the whole the system is sufficient in countiy parishes, were the allowances to the poor larger. 1733. Without granting relief to the able-bodied ? — Without doing so ; and the landlords are perfectly willing to come forward. I woidd make no alterations over the country. 1734. Would not the system you propose be expensive? — It would be less expensive than the system now existing ; because these people always contrive to live, and they live at a much higher expense than if they were more amply pro\'ided for by a public charity. I know poor people in my parish who live at a much greater expense than working men. They live at hack and manger. Sometimes they want, and at other times they waste. 1735. Then your system woidd be to have a paid inspector for work? — It woidd ; but in country parishes the necessity woidd very seldom exist. 1730. Not if the able-bodied had a right to relief? — No ; I don't believe it. 1737. What is the popvdation of your present pai'ish ? — About 2000. 1738. What is yoiu* object in setting up the system of deacons? — To try the effect of the jxirochial system. We have got a free church. The lower part of it is free ; and I would not have set up the deacons without that. 1739. But I mean what is your object with reference to the pauperism of the parish? — We had two objects. We wanted to supplement the workliouse in the first instance ; but our second object would have been to make arrangements with the charity workliouse, so that they might have given us the collections, and we woidd have taken the whole charge of the poor. But the reason why the operations have not been so vigorously carried out is just — what must be known to all the gentlemen present — the state of matters in the Church. 1740. Woidd you consider the funds sufficient for so poor a parish as yours ? — We hoped when it was kno\vn in Edinburgh that we had the system of deacons in operation, that we would receive aid from charitable individuals in the town. 1741. Private charity would come to the poor by the deacons ? — ^Yes. Tliis was to be anticipated when it was known that there were men who took an interest in the poor, and who distinguished betwixt the unworthy and the worthy. The system would fonn a connecting link betwixt the rich and the poor. But I confess if the public houses were put down, I should not be afraid to face the poor without waiting for the arrangeiuents to which I have referred. Three-foiu-ths of the poverty which exists arises from di-unkenness. It meets us at every comer, and is the great barrier against doing good. The plan I propose would, I trust, be ultimately successful ; but not at first. I contemplate, as the first step, changing the habits of the poor, and turning scores of them who are now given to dissipa^ tion into a church-going population. 1742. Then, in the fii-st instance, you think your system would not be successftd ? — Clearly not. My system was set up with the view of effecting a radical change in the habits of the poor as an indispensable pre-requisite. I did not expect to tiu-n moor into carse land at once. I did not expect to change the asjiect of the parish in a day. 1743. But if the moral machinery were in operation, you t hink you would be able to face all the poor of the parish ? — Yes. 1744. And pro^-ide for them on the scale you propose? — And provide for them, provided also there were some alteration in the law of settlement. It requires at present only three years' industrial residence to secm-e a settlement ; and where there are so many closes as in my jiarish, a great many congi-egate fi-om other places. The poor from the eountry and from Ireland come here and nestle. 1745. You think if you were fi-ee fi-om the Immigration of strangers from Ireland and elsewhere, and on the supposition that you had the moral machinery of which you speak in operation, yom- system would be effectual ? — I have not a doubt of it, and we shoidd better provide for the poor. 174G. Supposing the poor prorided for in the way you mention, don't you think the effect v/ould be to check private charity ? — No. All I contemplate for the poor would be a pro- vision for the absolute necessities of life ; and if they were not worthy poor, they would not Examinations. Rev. T. Guthrie. 11 March 1843. 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, be entitled to get anything over and above such allowance from the other sources which Rev T G th ■ inight be opened for the supply of some comforts. 11 Maich I8i;t. 1747. Would you take into consideration their ability to do something? — Surely ; while at the same time, I must say, that such abOity may be taken too much into account. A woman is left with six children. It is said the woman can work ; and she goes out to wash, or to dress, or to sew. She is from home from six o'clock in the morning till ten o'clock at night. What is the effect ? Iler children are left on the streets ; they grow up blackguards, and become a shame to their friends and a bimlen to the country. I say let the woman do her duty. Let the state be a father to her cliildren, and enable her to devote herself to bringing up her children. I would not desire a woman imder these circumstances to work. 1748. But should not the children be sent to infant schools? — That is very true; but no infant school would do what a mother would do. 1749. Woidd not the children be kept from the dangers to which you allude, provided infant schools were established as part of the moral machinery? — No infant school keeps the ehilcfren above two or three hoiu-s a day; and Mhat becomes of them during the rest of the day? 1750. The infant schools, I know, teach them the whole day. You said a little ago, that you wish the system of deacons to make a connecting link bet^vixt the rich and the poor. Would you not think tliat, in a country parish, being, as it is, in very different circumstances from a town parish, other soiu^ces of relief would be sufficient, Avithout any large public pro- vision? — I don't know. When I speak of a public provision, I don't care how you make that. But when I speak of a large pubhc provision, I speak of it as reqiured for the pur- pose of providing for the poor just now. And if the money goes tlu'ough the deacons, it matters very little whether it comes from public frmds or private purses. 1751. Does not the source bear upon the effect on the parties who receive the relief? — I really don't think it. The deacon is the mere channel of communication; and gratitude cannot go beyond the first step. 1752. But if they knew the relief was from a public charity, would they not have more a feeling of independence ? — Really, I doubt that very much. 1753. Have you found anything in your own experience that tends to confirm that doubt which you have expressed with respect to the injury produced upon the minds of poor l^eople, by destroying the spuit of independence ? — I find none who are less independent than those who go and beg in the way of private charity. 1754. Woidd you think that applicable to a country parish? Supposing a party were receiving aid from a benevolent person in a country parish, would you think their indepen- dent feeling injured? — Oh, provided it were privately given. If it Avere given through an official person, in the shape of a deacon, I don't think it would make any diflerence at all, whether the money he distributed came from a public or a private source. 1755. What would you give, say to a widow with five cliildren imder age? — TVhen a woman is left in such circumstances, I would give what an ordinary labourer gets, deducting what the man would need for himself. 1756. Have you any knowledge of what would be paid by the charity workhouse? — ^As to the amount, I could not say. 1757. Supposing your plan carried into effect of removing the unworthy poor to the peni- tentiary, do you think it would be right to separate the husband from the wife ? — Indeed I do. I think it would be the greatest blessing to the man and the woman. 1758. But would you send them to the penitentiary because they are drunken?— I think drunkenness one of the greatest crimes in the country ; and it is through the prevalence of drunkenness that so many children are, through starvation and neglect, in a sense murdered. ^ 1759. Then by force of law you would put a man into the penitentiary? — The old Scot- tish law considers drunkenness as a crime and as an aggravation of other crimes. I hold that a man should be liable to punishment as under the old Scotch law. Many may think that this is extravagance ; but if they had seen as often as I have the dreadfid consequences which have flowed from intemperate habits, they would think dnmkenness a very high crime, and one requiring a very severe remedy. I hold that moral means may be bene- ficially assisted by the laws. 1760. Would you cure the present race of drunkards? — That could not altogether be expected. They would die out ; but if a new race, freed from the contamination of their habits, sprang up, you would alter the state of society. 1761. You rest yom* whole expectation of the success of the system upon the moral means ? — Ultimately the success of it ; but I certainly would have a check on those whose example might tend to weaken or destroy the efficacy of the moral means. 1762. And you are of opinion that if parishes were subdivided, each having a population of 2000, with a free church and free schools, the system would be efficient ? — I believe it would. There are a number of additional advantages which I would also give, such as exist in Berlin, where there are paid medical officers for attending to the poor, hospitals, &c. 1763. And the system would be efficient — to what extent ? Would it destroy the assess- ment system ? — I do believe it would banish poverty from the face of the town. I don't mean to say that an assessment and a large fund would not be required in the meantime. I live in a house where I pay 148. of assessment ; and my lantUord, the Lord Provost, pays 14s. also — that is for the West Church parish. These are small amounts. 1764. Supposing the system carried on to the fullest extent, do you think the effect would be to make any assessment unnecessary ? — Not a doubt of it. It must be so, because, I be- lieve three-fourths of poverty arises from immorality. I don't say but that they act and POOR LAW INQUIRY COM^nSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 93 react on each other. Many a man turns to drinking when he is stricken with poverty. He drinks, as the scripture says, to " forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." 17G5. Would you think it desirable to have an assessment for Imiacy? — Yes; I am clear about that. I know many comitry parishes where the system of applying the collections for the relief of poverty is destroyed, just because there is no provision for lunacy. 17G6. Do you think any system would be efficient, which did not include moral and reli- gious influences ? — Clearly not. 1767. You hold this must be the main point in every system ? — Yes, siu-ely. 1768. Does it consist with your own knowledge that able-bodied persons get nothing from kirk-sessions in countiy parishes ? — No, it never occurred in my own parish. We proposed, in Arbirlot, to give an allowance to the able-bodied if they were thrown out of work ; and I have found from kirk-session records, that at one time they allowed a provision to the able- bodied, but took their bill for the amount. 1769. The fact is, that you complain of the able-bodied not having positively a legal claim, while practically tliey do receive relief, when necessary ? — I have no evidence in my own country parish, because no such thing existed when I was minister of Arbirlot ; but I found the landlord coming forward, and supplying the pressing and present necessities of the people. 1770. Do you conceive the moral eft'ect of such a supply, on an emergency, to be less favourable as regai-ds the individuals relieved than would be the moral effect of a legal pro- vision ? — A legal provision for the wants of the people woidd be less injurious than the pre- sent system, forcing them, as it does, to the meanest shifts, and driving them to the distribu- tion of their little property among the pawnbrokers. 1771. Would landlords concur in aftbrding a supply by the means you mention ? — I have some doubts about that. I cannot speak from my own expei'ience ; because I was in a pa- rish which belonged to one landlord, who always acted in the way I have stated. 1772. You said it did not matter from what source relief was derived, if it were adminis- tered by the deacons, and that gratitude would never go beyond the first step ; — do you not think that the deacon acting in the double capacity of almoner for the wealthier portion of the community as well as distributor of the public funds for the relief of the poor, would not only convey assistance to the poor, but represent their necessities to the wealtliier classes, and thus establish a religious bond of union which would otherwise not exist ? — I have not a doubt of that. It is one of the advantages of deacons. 1773. And would not that have the effect of binding all classes in a happier union than the same amount of charity, if it were to come from a public fund ? — Yes ; very tnie. But don't misunderstand me, as if I said that there should be no private charity. I woidd have that too, for the purpose of jiroviding the comforts which, if the poor are God's poor and decent poor, they should have. But aU I would give from public funds woidd be what was required for the decencies and necessities of life. You were speaking of moral means. One of the great- est means of improving the condition of the people and enabling them to overcome tempo- rary difficulties would be the establishment of something like loan funds ; becaxise at this moment there are many in my parish, betwixt whom no discrimination is made. Supposing two men, one a drunkard the other a hard-working man,— the man who is decent and hard- working has no advantage from Ms character over the other. He does not like to apply to the charity workhouse. He is ashamed to beg. He takes away his clothes to the pawn- broker. First one portion and then another of liis fiimitm-e goes the same road. Then the effect'is, that the man is out of church— one, two, three, or four times — till at last he sinks down into a man who never goes to the house of God. He is ruined, and miserable, and desperate. Under these circumstances, if a man could get a temporary loan, he might be saved from such utter wretchedness, and enabled to stand liis ground tiU the storm had passed over his head. 1774. What use would he make of the money ? — ^Maintain his family. 1775. What security would you have ? The Loan Societies in Ireland are for carrying on business ?— So they are ; but I shall explain the use which might be made of them, as I think. A man is thrown out of work. He does not choose to go into a workhouse. There have been at a time weeks in Edinburgh when the poor have no work at all. If they had an opportu- nity of borrowing money in the time of exigency, they might go on till they got work again. They have now an opportunity of saving, but they have none of borrowing; and the defect of savings-banks is, that while they take in the earnings of the poor, they give no help in times of difficulty. The upper classes have banks which combine the two, and are both for receiving and giving out. The poorer classes have no such advantage ; and the conse- quence is, that a man — a working man — who never dreamed that he would be reduced to extremity by want of work, and forced to depend on charity for subsistence, is, very much against his will, and to the injury of the country as well as of himself, obliged to become a pauper. 1776. Do you think security could be given ?— In Ireland they take the security of neigh- bours, and of the recommender. The deacons, or two neighbours, might become secm-ity that a man would repay. The deacon, instead of becoming the channel of bestowng aliment, might become the security ; and in many such cases the man would pay, and he would not become a pauper at all. 1777. Would not the evil be obviated, in some degree, by the kirk-session being able to make sufficient advances ? — They might act as managers of a loan fund. 1778. For occasional relief? — For occasional rehef. I prefer that the poor should receive the money as a loan, to their getting it as ordinary charity. 1779. Have you had occasion to consider the effects of the law with I'cgard to the arrest- ment of wages ? — Never. Examinations. Rev. T. Guthrie. 11 March 1843. &4 MINUTES OF E\TDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Rev. T. Guthrie. 11 March 1843. 1 780. Wlietlicr tlie facility of aircsting wages is beneficial or not to poor people ? — No ; the subject has never come inuler uiy notice. 1781. In yom- visits you have seen many respectable persons of good character in a state of extreme destitution ? — I have seen many such who arc out of employment. 1782. And who have not been brought to a state of destitution by intemperance, or by their own fault ? — Far from it. 1783. ^Vnd to that class of persons you would extend some relief? — Surely. 1784. A legal provision ? — Yes. Of course, I would not resort to that legal provision if the thing could be done otherwise. 1785. Have you anything to suggest ? — No. Anything I may have to suggest has al- ready been mentioned. I may repeat, that one of the great roots of poverty in this country arises from dissipation, encouraged by the multitude of low public houses in towns. I believe we may build chm-chcs and plant schools, as many as we please ; but if these public houses are kept on, even at the very doors of the poor, we fight under most disadvantageous circum- stances. Then there is another ]xnnt as to the law being put into ojjeration with reference to low pawns ; that matter should be diflPerently regulated from what it is now. Again, it would be a great blessing to the poor, if public means were provided for the best medical attendance, wliich at present they have not. 178G. Medical attendance by public provision ? — The public provision of proper medical attendance ; because, though the medical men in the dispensaries may visit at first, the cases are often then left to young men who are learning the profession there. And allow me to say another thing before I go. It would be of the greatest benefit to the poor, if there were some system by wliich tbey could be j)rovided with a good snj)ply of clean water. One great cause of crime is filth. Crime produces filth ; filth produces crime ; and how can the poor observe cleanly habits when a woman with five or six children, perhaps, has to go down four or five stairs and along the street, and to return again before she can get a pail of water to wash her face or hands or house. If a pubhc provision covdd be made for supplying an adequate and easily accessible sujiply of clean water for the poor, it would be a very great blessing. It would not, I have calculated, cost above a penny a week for each house ; and I think a law should be brought into Parliament making it compulsory. DrR.K.GreTiire. -^^ ^- Kaye Greville, Examined: — 1787. You are one of the managers of the house of refuge? — I am. 1788. Have you had occasion to see a great many poor persons in that house coming from different parts of the country, and particularly Etlinburgh ? — Very many indeed. I have been acquainted ^^^th the house of reftige for five or six years ; and as chairman of the com- mittee of management, I have, perhaps, had more opportunities of seeing the working of the establishment than any other individual now connected with it, with the exception of the governor. 1789. Are the greater number of persons who apply for aid persons from Edinbiu-gh or from a distance ? — Persons coming from a distance. Certainly two-thirds of the applicants are individuals coming from a distance. 1790. Have you different classes of individuals in that house, — some for temporary pur- poses, others as boarders, paid for either by their friends or by their parishes in different parts of the country ? — 'Wc have three classes of inmates, — one class is tliat for which the institution is particularly set apart — destit-ute Individuals, whose only claim is destitution ; then we have a considerable number of individuals sent by the cliarity Avorkhouse and other establishments of a like description, for whom they have no accommodation, and for whom pauper board is paid ; the third class is a limited one, consisting of individuals put in mostly for intemperance, kept for moral puiposes, and retained only so long as we have room for them ; they have never interfered with the claims of the really destitute. 1791. Among any of those persons, have you several who have not been able to make good a settlement against different parishes ? — Oh, many. 1792. Do you find much difficulty in making a settlement? — Wc frequently succeed in making a settleiijient good ; but in a very great number of instances the settlement is dis- puted, and it is often \\-ith gi'eat difficulty that a settlement is made, even when there is no dispute in the first instance. 1793. Have you found difficulty in making good such claims where they are well foimded ai^ainst the Edinburgh as well as against the coimtry parishes ?— Certainly. 1794. Is there difficulty in making out the legal proofs ? — The difficulty is not only some- times in making out the legal proof; but our experience is, that where the legal proof is quite clear, parishes trust to the difficulty of enforcing the claims against them, thinking that we will not be at the trouble of establishing them by having recourse to a court of law. They frequently resist the proof where the case is imdeniable. We presume that they trust to our forbearance. I may mention, perhaps, that one of our reports, published two years ago, contains some five or six cases, selected on purj)ose to show the peculiar difficulty under which Ave hibour. That report can be put in. One or two of the cases apply jjarticularly to the question asked, [The Eighth llcport of the House of liefuge for 1839-40 :] — Cases illustrating the difficulties icith which the House of Refuge has to contend in adminis- trating relief to the Poor. As the directors arc convinced that the public generally are strangers to the difficulties POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 95 which the house of refuge has to encounter, as well to the peculiar position it holds in being Examinations. daily called upon to extend relief to individuals who ought to be protected by other institu- tions, they have selected, almost indiscriminately, a few cases, out of the multitude in their IJrR.K.GreTillp. possession, illustrative of these difficidties. The number of beggars in Edinburgh is fre- ^"^ "^^" quently brought forward as a proof of inefficiency on the part of the house of refuge. It is expected to suppress this nuisance ; and it does so to a certain extent. But by its ndes it cannot alford an asylum to persons whose parochial claims are acknowledged : very many of these are beggars, dri\en by absolute necessity to break the law. They may be taken up by the pohce, and if the police acted up to the letter of their duty, they would be taken up. But what would be gained by it ? The parochial aid which these destitute creatures receive is so inadequate to sustain existence, that, in too frequent absence of employment, they must beg. How can a jwor widow, >\'itii three or four small children, provide food, fuel, clothing, and lodging, on eiyhteenpence, or possibly twenty-one pence per week ? It is really a matter of necessity ; they must either beg or starve. With such cases (and they form a large class) the house of refuge cannot, alas ! interfere, farther than by sometimes giving unfortunate applicants a ration of food, or an asylum for a few days, and recommending the case to the consideration of the parochial authorities, which is always done. 1. E H , aged twenty-eight, resided with her father in New South Wales, and married J. B. H d, a native of Hull, a shipowner in Sidney. Mrs H. having accom- panied her husband on a voyage, in which he sailed as master of his own ship, Avas left with her children in Peru, on account of her approaching confinement, Mr H. having previously made arrangements for their meeting in London. Soon after Mrs H.'s recovery, she ob- tained a passage for herself and her six children to Liverpool, and at length arrived in Lon- don, where she could hear nothing of her husband. Having neither money nor friends, she took refuge in the workhouse of the pai-ish of the Holy Trinity. But the authorities having ascertained that she had been bom in Edinburgh (during a visit which her parents, both English people, paid t <1> 1 1 1 W i a 1 "5 a £5 ^4 If a < *3 •-> a 1 S 1 n i 1842. Oct. 31. Nov. ... Dec. ... 1843. Jan. ... Feb. ... 10 15 7 14 5 2 ' 2 1 4 5 6 4 3 4 11 16 5 5 4 9 2 6 9 1 27 34 16 6 9 10 2 6 11 6 7 3 4 7 1 6 11 18 IS 17 6 3 2 4 7 7 4 G 2 1 2 2 1 11 6 8 3 "2 5 6 1 1 1 3 6 1 61 9 1 23 41 27 92 34 22 67 15 26 6 27 2 13 10 465 1976. What do you mean by bad servants? — Servants who are impertinent to their mistresses, or disorderly and drunken. Tliis return refers to tlie period from October to February. Then there is another return, showing the ages and denominations of iumates above eighteen. [The following return was then put in and read :] — MONTHLY RETURN of Admissions to the House of Refiige, from 18 years of age and upwards, showing the religious denomination to which they belong, ^for 10 months. Date. Age. .1 'a a, « W (ft 1' C p. a CO 1 OD 1 s J3 2 1 1 i 1 1842. May 31, 23 25 32 29 26 28 49 38 29 27 14 13 13 6 19 14 21 14 16 13 2 9 15 6 3 9 8 11 13 10 2 1 4 4 2 3 1 2 6 1 T 4 3 4 3 5 5 2 1 1 i 1 1 3 4 4 5 5 6 3 5 1 5 3 3 T 6 5 1 1 25 32 43 31 39 39 41 37 27 27 3 2 6 3 3 1 6 7 10 1 9 15 21 8 6 10 13 16 20 10 25 25 35 30 42 30 46 36 21 20 7 9 13 10 7 13 25 18 23 22 June July Auf Sept Oct Nov. ... Dec 1843. Jan. -31, Feb 326 143 86 26 28 3 37 25 371 42 128 310 147 1977. When you said that twenty-six were deserted by their husbands, did you mean twenty-six wives? — Twenty-six w'ives in the course of five months. 1978. Do persons going out receive any jjrofit from their work? — No; it takes all they do to keep them. 1979. Do you send them out without money in their pockets? — Yes, we give them a few loaves of bread. 1980. Don't you find the result is, that they frequently come back? — Often they come back ; but gencndly we find them places or employment of some kind. The people of this POOR LAW INQUIRY CO]\IMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 107 town are so kind as to give us cast-off clothing, which enables us to supply those who need clothing. 1981. Is there a regular chaplain ? — Yes. 1982. What is his duty? — He has regular exercise, forenoon and afternoon, on Sunday; worship in the mornings and evenings ; private classes ; and he visits the sick in their cells. Mr Goodsir is his name. 1983. Can you state some cases in which you have been unable to procure parochial aid for the parties requiring it ? — I shall take a few cases of difficulty. Persons who are in the house, for whom I have made application, and whom I find it extremely difficult to get on, remain very often with us as pennanent burdens. There is the case of Robert Turner, admitted 29th December 1840, aged sixty-sis, bom in Wester Kirk, Dumfriesshire. From the time he was four years of age till he was sixteen, he lived with his father in Alva. He went as a servant to Cnptain Hay of Seggicden for six years, but obtained no parish settle- ment, as his master was in the army and always moving about. He was after that, two years in the service of Major Mossman, in Lancashire. He then went to Mr Anstruther, Brown Square, Edinburgh, for one year. He was next for one year with Mr Stewart of Auch- limeart, in George Street, Pxlinburgh. He then returned to Mr Anstruther, and remained with him in Fdinburgh for five years, except a few months in the summer vacation, when he went to Erdet with his master. After leaving Mr Anstruther, he enlisted in the 1st Dragoon Guards, and served seventeen years. On being discharged, he worked as a labourer in London for one year ; and for about twenty years after tljis he gained his livelUiood by hawking needles, &c., through England. He then found himself so weak that he was necessitated to make application to his native parish in Dumfries, but the application was refused. He came to Edinburgh and met with the same ti-eatment, but was taken into the refuge, where he stUl remains. AppUcation has been made to Alva, but on advising with counsel, they, too, refose. That ease just shows the difficulty. There is one in the house etiU, wliose case rnay also be mentioned. Alexander Hall had both his feet amputated. I wrote repeatedly to Dunbar, but they threw him off. Then there is a respectable man, Lawrence Stout, bom in Shetland, admitted in May 1841. He has been in and about Edin- burgh for the last fifty years, in the most respectable service. He lived for the last four or five years on his savings ; but falling into distress, he was obliged to apply for aid. The city rejected his claim because he had shifted his residence to a part of the parish of South Leith. He was then thrown back on a residence on the parish of Annan, where he lived with General Peters from 1822 to 1826. The parish of Annan refuses his claim, as it is so fiir back, unless more evidence be produced. He is still in the house. 1984. What is his age ? — Seventy-two when admitted. I wrote twice or three times to Annan. They said there was not sufficient evidence, and we have not power to produce more. Previous to being admitted he was receiving Is. per week only from the Old Men's Society in Edinburgh. 1985. Was he unmarried ? — He was married, but I think his family are gone. He has a nephew to whom he gave very much of the money he had accumidated ; that person has got up in the world, and has done nothing for him. Then there is the case of Thomas Aitchison, aged sixty-seven, bom in Newton, and admitted in July 1842. He served his appentice- ship in the Canongate, and wrought in it till he was twenty-one. lie afterwards went to England, where he was nine years in Lancaster ; but he never remained long enough in any one place to obtain a settlement. Application was made to the Canongate immediately ; but they still delay, and Thomas is in the refuge. Georgina Brown, aged twenty-three, was admitted in September 1842. She is almost entirely confined to bed. She was bom and broughrTip in Edinburgh, and lived in the Canongate for the last four years. Application was made to the Canongate parish, but the managers discovered that the land, or part of the land, in which she lived belonged to the city parish, and she was refused. She is stiU in the house of refuge, and confined to bed. INIargaret M'Donald, aged fifty-eight, was bom in Lancashire. She has a child. Her husband sailed from London ten years previous to his death. He met witli an accident which disabled him from going to sea or doing for his family. He was sent by the poorhouse in London to Glasgow, that he might go to his parish, wliich was understood to be the Isle of Skye ; but he died in Glasgow, as the wife says, of starva- tion. She and her child were returned to Liverpool, where she was kept in the workhouse for a month, and was then sent back to Scotland, as it appeared from a paper of her husband that he had been an apprentice to an engraver in Leith. But Leith denies the claim, and the woman and her child are in the refuge. Mary M'Donald, bom at sea, aged forty-uine, has had both her feet amputated. Her settlement, in i-ight of her husband, is at Inverness, but no proof had been admitted up to July last. Sarah Brown, aged thirty-six, and bom in Dublin, was admitted in November 1841. There is no prospect of a recovery. She was married to a soldier in Perth, but can tell notliing more of him than that he belonged some- where about Falkirk. 198G. Does she not know where he was bom? — She knows nothing more than that it was somewhere near Falkirk. 1987. Do you find the Scotch more unwilling than the Irish to come into the refuge ? — I cannot say that. Gentlemen say they are very wiUing to take soup, but that some prefer begging. However they are anxious to get into the house ; but with regard to discipline some prefer going out to working. Three young women I have just turned away for refus- ing to wash. I have no other power but to say, you shall either work or quit the house. 1988. They would rather remain in the house of refuge than endure starvation ?— Oh, yes ; but they sometimes will submit to great privations rather than go through regular discipline. Examinations. Mr Graliam. U March 1843. 108 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. ' Ml- (Jrahain. 11 Manh 1B43. 1989. The cliildi-en arc superintended with regard to their education ? — We have a school- master for the boys, and a schoolmistress for the girls. 1990. At what ages do you send them out? — As soon as vre can get them out. They are generally wanted to keep children. We apprentice out the boys. 1991. Have you understood how these children generally turn out in life afterwards who have received a tolerably good education ? — I have not. 1 visited boys last year in different places, who had been apprenticed out ; they appeared to be doing pretty well. They are generally short periods in the refuge, unless it be a certain number, who are paid for by their friends or parishes. 1992. But you have no means of estimating the effect of the education they receive upon their subsequent habits and character ? — ^^^ery few. 1 know some young lads who were in the house that are doing very well ; but I have very little experience as yet. They are generally short periods in the refuge. 1993. Have you any more returns to make ? — I give in these lists relative to the house of refuge, and the night refuge ; and I shall give in another. [The following returns were then put in :] — RETURN showing the number of Destitute Pei-sons who have been relieved, and the mode of their disposal, during the year ending 30th September 1842. Remaining in the house on 1st October 1841, Admitted to 30th September 1842, Total relief dm-ing the year, Sent to service. Sent to their parishes, Apprenticed to trades, ... ... ... Lett volimtarily. Taken out by friends. Sent to hospitals. Died in the house, Deserted, Dismissed for breach of regulations, Remaining in the house on 30th September 1842, 302 1207 1509 127 57 24 550 289 51 40 37 22 1197 312 1509 RETURN showing the number Discharged from the General Reftige during the Year ending 30th September 1842, and the periods during which they were Inmates. 15 U s . OQ w m (D tc to DQ a .O TS U, IT -a ■3 J3 J3 j3 -o ^ ■?. ^ ■?. ■5 a ■o a 60 87 32 472 412 80 48 30 10 48 1321 G41 5 9 1839 78 3 83 54 005 438 44 43 31 14 42 1435 057 4 4 1840 07 . • > 110 57 759 435 30 43 33 18 12 1570 777 2 Of 1841 88 • •■ 82 31 477 312 54 47 29 20 5 1151 892 4 11 1842 127 ... 57 24 550 289 51 40 37 22 ... 1197 928 11 5 Totals,.... 781 24 852 289 3994 28(50 402 308 227 138 247 10,182 0228 2 7f Averages, 99 3 100 30 499 300 50 40 27 17 31 1273 778 10 4 POOR I,AW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 109 NUMBERS and DESCRIPTION of HOUSELESS POOR admitted into the Night Refuge, Queensberry House, Canongate, Edinburgh, during the year ending 30th Sep- tember 1842, Kxaminations. • Mr Graham. U Marth 11(43. Months ending on last Saturday of each. Men. Women. Boys under 15 years. Girls under 15 years. Totals. 1841. October 30, November 27, December 25, 1842. January 29, February 26, March 26, 210 243 177 270 264 303 487 510 557 746 374 500 364 433 427 408 431 427 589 561 839 1100 707 903 109 92 106 87 142 117 161 240 201 289 234 285 60 83 109 67 75 111 128 102 129 175 196 287 743 851 819 832 912 958 1365 1413 1726 2310 1511 1975 April 30 May 28, June 25, July 30 August 27, September 30, 4648 7189 2063 1522 15415 RETURN showing the respective Localities in which the Houseless Poor Sheltered and Relieved in the Night Refuge, Queensberry House, Canongate, Edinburgh, during the year fl-om 1st October 1841 to 30th September 1842, were born. r Months. Edinburgh, St Cuthberts, and Canongate Parishes. Dalkeith, Duddingston, Musselburgh, and Portobello Parishes. £ '■i 1 •a i i h3 T3 a as 1 DO 1 P. u . Bishop Gillls. 13 March 184:). taking their children into the house ; while to the Protestant poor in a similar situation, permanent outdoor rehef has, I believe, been more readily given. 2032. What class of persons might they be ? — Widows, with children, or women whose husbands have gone in quest of work, and left them and the children destitute. 2033. Have you not reason to believe that this is a common mode of dealing with that class of persons, to take their children into the workhouse ? — It may be so ; but considering that the case of a Catholic mother being obliged to give up her children to the poor house, where there is no Catholic chaplain to instruct them in what she beUevcs to be the truth, and which instniction she considers it her most sacred duty to procure for them, is a case of much greater hardship than that of a Protestant parent, who is not thus called upon to barter in a manner the faith of her children for a mess of porridge ; it appears to me, that if fairness to Catholics were an object of any importance Avith the managers of the poor house, they ought to be more ready to grant what is called permanent outdoor assistance to CathoUcs, than to Protestants ; whereas I have often found the reverse to be the case. 2034. Might not the reason for that be, that, as many of these persons come from Ireland, and have not lived long enough to obtain a settlement, the managers must put a more strin- gent test to them ? — I cannot say; I may mention a circumstance that, happened when the house of refuge was started here. I was desired to collect money for it, and I agreed to do so; but I found the managers of that establishment acted on principles so unfair, that I told one of the directors, I would do so no longer. I may state, that a number of the Catholic children were obliged to attend Protestant service on Sunday, and were refused jiermission to go to their own chapel. I was told the reason of this was, that there was no person to take charge of them, and that it would be a dangerous thing to allow them to go out without some superintendence. An establishment of religious Catholic ladies in the Canongate offered to take charge of them ; and, after attending their own place of worship), to take them back to the house of refuge ; but this also Mas refused. The only reason given before had been, that there was nobody to take charge of them. I cannot say what is the reason of the managers of those institutions for acting as they do, but their conduct is such as to make it look very like as if they wished to make Protestants of the poor Catholic children. 2035. Has the number of the Irish been increasing in Edinburgh of late years? — The number has been rather on the increase within the last two years ; the number had been stationary for a considerable time before. 2036. Is it common for the Irish to belong to temperance societies? — A certain number of them do. 2037. Would you say that intemperance is on the increase or the reverse? — There are some hundreds of them who belong to temperance societies, and with whom intemjjcrance is on the decrease. So far as I am concerned, I have not encouraged temperance societies. 2038. Are the lower orders of the Irish in a state of great destitution ? — Some of thcin are in very great destitution. I have seen the most wretched state of human destitution among them that it is possible to conceive. I have been called on to baptize a child in a miserable garret, where the mother was lying on the floor, without an article of fiimiture ill the place, and have been obliged to borrow a bucket of water to perform the baptism. I have again and again required a candle at midday, to ascertain where the sick ])crson to whom I had been called was lying, the filth of the place, and its want of ventilation being such as to baffle all description. 2039. Are many of those in this state of destitution persons of respectable character ? — I believe, in as far as women are concerned, many of them have come into this state from cir- cumstances beyond their own control, chiefly by the fault of their husbands. At the same time, I know that there are not wanting those whose destitute state is owing to their own imprudence. 2040. May I ask why you do not encourage temperance societies ? — I object to the prin- ciple on which those societies are founded. 1 do not, of course, question the motl\es of those who encourage such societies ; but the princijile on which they are based, has always a[)peared to me to be a dangerous one. If the name of a society is ever to be taken as an indication of its nature, the only object for which such societies can with consistency claim a i-ight of existence, is to promote sobriety ; but sobriety being a result in itself essentially and exclu- sively personal, is one that cannot be more effectually achieved by a society, than it is by its individual members. The members of an education society, for instance, can work out the object for which they exist, more effectually as a society, than they could do as individuals ; hence, their reason for uniting together, organizing, and thus rendering more j)Owerful their individual resources, by means of a society. But with them the society is an instrument in the hands of the indiA-iduals, for the purpose of eflfecting the more readily an object which is external to themselves ; whereas, do what they may, the members of a temperance society can never be more sober as a society, than they could be a* individuals. Then, again, in order to exist as a society, these sober men can only become a visible body through outward organization ; but outward organization necessarily implies the existence of some outward oiiject on which that organization is to work. Now, it is in this respect that temperance societies have ever appeared to me to be essentially deficient, in as far as they have no object external to themselves which they can call their own, and on which they can bring their col- lective energies to bear. The inevitable consequence of this is, that in order to have anything to do at all as societies, they are often forced to throw themselves upon what it may not be their business to meddle M'ith. Under the general name of temperance societies, they are, or may be, spouting and debating societies, political societies, speculating societies, tea and coffee- drinking and dancing societies ; in short, anything and everything, but what their appella- tion exclusively implies, viz. ioher societies ; for were they onli/ that, their sayings and doings POOR LAW COIkEVnSSION INQUIRY FOR SCOTLAND. 113 would necessarily occupy mucli less space In our public periodicals than they avowedly do. Examiimtions. They seem to nic like public roads that lead to no public place ; they are doomed to stretch . through a waste, or they are for ever meandering through private properties. Such a sys- ,?'fI"'''/^Io'/<, " ,' .•' . 1 , , ., '^ . °. * . ^. ^ Til"' 1^ March 1843. tem of outward organization, whatever be its name, is, in my opinion, exceedingly danger- ous in principle ; for a society, without any legitimate and thorouglily defined object of its own, is one which may any day be made a cloak wherewith to conceal from the public eye such designs and pursuits as are unfit to meet its scrutiny. It was stated, not long ago, in the Times newspaper, that from the examination of John Bean, the last infatuated individual who shot at the Queen, it had transpired that there were in London many societies under the name of temperance societies, whose real object was anything but what their name seemed to imply ; and It appears to me difficult to suppose that this should not be the case. Moreover, the necessity to which they are driven of interfering with things which concern them not, in order, as they imagine, to do them better than those whom they do concern, is very apt to develop In the Individual members of such societies, a degi-ee of self-esteem that can with difficulty be kept within proper bounds, and which must, therefore, in some shape or another, overrun Its banks, and ultimately prove of dangerous, if not of destruc- tive tendency. I may perhaps be allowed to explain my meaning more fully In the words of the present bishop of Norwich. " What I object to in teetotallers," says Dr Stanley, " Is their violence, that they will not allow people to be sober their own way, so that if they will not follow, without deviation, their rules and regulations, they are denounced as traitors to the cause of temperance ; nay, I have heard the whole body of the British and Foreign Temperance Society denounced as worse than drunkards They are temperate, certainly, but It is a physical kind of temperance : temperance does not consist In mere abstinence from wine or from spirits, but in abstinence also from anything that con- duces to unhinge the human mind, and to unfit It for the society In which It moves. This is too much to be seen In teetotalists : they are characterized by a sort of moral intoxication, if we may so call it ; when once their passions are excited they know no bounds, they Irritate, oppose, and denounce, which Is all foreign to the precepts and principles of the gospel. Again, there are certain fallacies In their arguments, which ought to be exposed. They object to anything containing alcohol. Then why don't they object to sugar ? Their com- mon sense Is at fault as well as their chemistry. In order to explain the mention of wine in scriptures, they try to make out that It Is unfermented wine. Instead of perceiving that the great principle of scripture Is (as might be illustrated by passages innumerable), that it Is the abuse, not the use, of a thing In which sin lies. I think teetotallers are In some sort morally intoxicated upon this point ; and, judging from their conduct upon too many occasions, I might almost say they were labouring under a species of delirium tremens." I myself have been told within my own residence, and by one of a deputation of Catholic teetotallers of my o^vn congregation, that he looked upon me as " an encourager of drunken- ness in Edinburgh," because 1 would not patronize temperance societies ; and that he consi- dered me as " guilty of a breach of the divine law. In taking a single glass of wine after dinner ;" and, when I, their bishop, endeavoured to convince them that they were wrong in supposing that the wine made mention of in scripture, was such as could not produce intoxication, they very coolly replied that doctor somebody, who had written a book called " Bacchus," or " Anti-Bacchus," had quite satisfied them that they were riyht. Much, I am aware, has been said of the good that has already been effected by these socle- ties. — That no good whatever should have been done in societies so numerous, and number- ing among them so many good and well intentioned men, would Indeed be passing strange ; but I hold the assertion as extremely problematical, which goes to say, that any amount of positive good has accrued to the world, from the mere circumstance that so many men have now become sober, who before were drunkards ; or, that so many others, who practised sobriety before, unostentatiously, and as It were, for their own account, have now agi-ecd to carry it on in partnership, under the finn of temperance societies. A man may have become a sober man, from having been a drunkard, and may therefore be enabled to afford a better coat for himself, and better clothing for his family — but he may not on that account have become a more humble man, or a more peaceable citizen, or a more lenient man in his dealings, or a better christian, In a word, but perchance quite the reverse ; and In that case, what great amount of good has accrued to the world from his sobriety ?— Sobriety, it is true. Is not of Itself likely to produce within him these latter evil dispositions ; but may not the very means resorted to m order to keep his sobriety going, be such as have a natural tendency to develop them ? n a word, I hold that teetotal societies, as such, are, and must ever be, utterly powerless in roducing any amount of positive good to the world, for this simple reason — If you expect a lan to give up an Illicit enjoyment, you must give him in return one of two things — a com- ensatlon In this world. In the shape of some other gratification, or, what Christianity alone, 'and not teetotalism, can give — a princl])le of self-abnegation, that wUl teach him to submit to unrequited privations here, looking to heaven alone for the rewai'd of his sacrifice. The truth of this Is borne out by the very history of teetotalism. At first, we heard of no- thing but tempei-ance societies — and the restrictions then bore only on spirituous liquors. This went on for several years, tUl It became evident that too many temperance men, while abstaining from spirits, contrived stUl to get intoxicated with wine and malt liquors. Temperance societies, wlilch had been tlU then just as much cried up as teetotal societies have been since, were at last declared IneflTectual, and, under the latter appellation, new associations were formed, of which the members were bound to abstain from all drinks whatever that could possibly produce intoxication. These latter societies have since, as the bishop of Norwich informs us, " denounced the former as worse than drunkards^' But have these same teetotal societies proved one jot more effectual ?— Have not iJieir votaries pro- Q 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Exantuiaiiuns. ceedcd on a similar principle of compensation with their temperance prototj-pos? ^Vliat " " class of men tlu'oughout the kingdom have required to be kept in a state of more constant is'Marcli 'l843 excitement, by meetings, speeches, wiVee.s, processions, &c. &c., than these same teetotallers? Truly, there never was a set of men whose sobriety seemed to cost them so much trouble. Are we to infer from thence, that they have all agreed to become sober from slieer love of sobriety ? Until a better cause be shown for the gradual increase which, accorduig to the returns of the House of Commons, is proved to have taken place in the home consumption of opium in this country since 1830, about which time, I think, temperance societies were first seen to flourish in Great Britain ; and for the tenfold increase which took })lace the very first year that teetotal- ism became so prevalent, may it not be allowable to suppose, that the more general indulgence in the use of this frightfully deleterious drug has been so far resorted to, as to one species of compensation, by a certain portion of the disciples of teetotalism ? In conversing on the subject with an eminent practical chemist here, the increase, I was informed, might be so far accounted for by the more general introduction, of late years, of the solution called morphia, the preparation of which, it seems, requires the destruction of a considerable quantity of opium ; but the same chemist acknowledged that the only quality which opium-eaters cared for, still remained in what coidd now be disposed of at a very reduced price, as refuse opium, and that such opium was not unfrequently thus disposed of to poor people, some of whom were seen to eat it before even leaving the shops. The above are some of the reasons why I have never encouraged temperance or teetotal societies. I have given my opinions upon the subject as I conscientiously entertain them, and with all due deference to the judgment of others, who, I am aware, thinik very differently from me, and for many of whom, personally, I entertain the highest respect. 2043. Can you state pretty nearly what may be the number of Irish, old and young, residing in Edinburgh ? — The number of baptisms during last year amounted to 4GG — of these, judging from the names, upwards of 400 appear to be the children of Irish parents. 2044. When the unfairness took place in the administration of the poor-funds which you stated, was any complaint laid regularly before the managers of the charity workhouse in regard to these cases ? — In many instances complaints liave been made to the managers. I have had occasion more than once to make such complaints myself, but I never found them to be of much avail — it is so easy to plead laws and regulations of detail, in vu-tue of which a fair colom-ing may be given to proceedings of which the real som-ce has in many instances, I can have little doubt, been i-eligious prejudice. 2045. Were they written statements ? — In some instances they were. — While on this sub- ject, I wish to add, that the dread which our poor, in general, entertain of the pooi-housc and its managers, speaks but little in favom- of the kindly treatment they meet with there. Rude- ness of manner to the Irish Catholic poor has been constantly complained of by the poor themselves. For the last few years, there has been a Catholic gentleman among the mana^ gers of the poorhouse, and we have heard fewer complaints than there used to be. Previously, it was not an uncommon complaint, that Catholic applicants for relief were dismissed unassistsd, with " Go to your priests," or some such kind speech ; and it has happened that a Catholic clergyman's certificate has, when presented at the poorhouse, been disregarded altogether, and sneered at, as coming only from " a popish priest." The kind of treatment which the Catholic poor are led to expect at the hands of the poorhouse authorities may likewise be gathered from the fact, that when question 15 of the schedule to be filled up, on application for parochial relief, has been put to many destitute Catholic paupers, viz. "What place of religious worship do you attend?" they have in several instances been found to register themselves as in the habit of attending some of the Established churches. As to the indoor Catholic paupers, both old and young, they have very frequently com- plained of being obliged to attend Protestant worship m the cha2)el of the jjoorhouse. They were forced, they said, to do so by the resident governor of the poorhouse, who is said to be a clergyman. When they had ventured to refuse attending, they were prevented from going to their own place of worship. I have reason, however, to believe that no case of this kind has occurred for some time past. With regard to the children, they have not unfrequently been, under one pretence or another, torn away in a manner from their parents, especially when the only surviving parent was the mother, under the threat of withdrawing their miser- able pittance, in the event of their reftising to dehver them up to the managers. All these children are, of course, brought up Protestants, or they cease at least to be Catholics, and in general tiu-n out very ill. I woiUd be ready to take charge of them all, if the parochial allow- ance allotted to them were put at my disposal. I would feel thankful even, could any of my clergy be allowed to instruct them in their own religion, within the walls of the poorhouse ; but even this has been refused to us, and in temis so replete with religious anunosity, that I cannot give a better idea of the animus of most of our poorhouse authorities towards the Catholic poor, than by inserting, as part of my present evidence, the following extract from the Edinburgh Advertiser of the 18th of January 1842 : — " Charity Workhouse. " A meeting of the general managers was held yesterday, the Lord Provost (Sir James Forrest, bart.) in the chair. " Mr Doud (a Catholic) moved, that ' it shall and may be lawful for any licensed minister of the religious persuasion of any inmate of the workhouse, or children's hospital, at all times of the day, on the request of such inmate, to visit the same, for the pm-pose of aftbrdino; reU- gipus assistance to such inmate, as also for the pui-pose of instructing such child or childi-en in the principle of their parent's rehgion.' POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 115 " The Lord Provost having asked, after a brief pause, who seconded the motion ? " Dr Spittal said he had certainly expected that some gentlemen who were accustomed to talk loudly of civil and religious liberty would have come forward, and not left a junior member to second the motion. Some difficulties might be encountered at first in carrying the principle into operation ; but these might be overcome ; and he begged to second the motion. " [Mr John Robertson moved an amendment.] " Mr Jack said he hoped the day was far distant when either the motion or amendment would be approved of. " Mr Hutchison said he had a decided objection to giving a free right of admission to popish priests. " Mr Doud said he hoped that when Mr Hutchison alluded to the Catholic clergy, he would not apply to them a name which was not considered very complimentary. " Mr Hutchison said, he gave things their proper names, and spoke what was true. Whenever any imuate wished to see a minister or priest, he had only to say that he wished to see such and such a person. — Why there should be another rule, making It permissive that a Roman Catholic piiest should come into the house, and go through all his flummery and nonsense — " Mr Doud said he did object to the use oflanguage which was so marked by Impertinence. " Mr Hutchison said he did believe that the whole Roman Catholic religion was flum- mery. Such was his feeling. " Mr John Robertson said such might be Mr Hutchison's belief; but men should not insult the persuasions from which they differed — they shoidd not Insult that religion which was professed by the great majority of the world. Whatever opinions they entertained of other men's creeds, let them express these opinions among themselves. " The Lord Provost said he was anxious to preveM the tise of any irregular expressions in the course of discussion ; but he thought there had been nothing very irregular in Mr Hutchison's observations. Mr Hutchison did not attack Mr Doud personally ; he merely attacked a system of belief which, by all the authorities, and In all the Institutions, of this country, had been declared to be not according to the word of God, founded on error, and maintained hy delusion. That was recognized in all the national institutions as a determina- tion to which the government and authorities of the country had deliberately come with respect to that system. " Mr Jack begged to mention a single fact. With respect to the Roman Catholics in the house, nine-tenths of them were Irish. His con^■Iction, from personal observation was, that If these people were allowed to act according to their own views and feelings, they would never dream of objecting to being Instructed In the Protestant religion. If nobody interfered with them, they would read their bibles with the greatest pleasure. The curse of these people was, that there was a set of Individuals In this place, and perhaps In other places, who would not sufier them to rest, but were perpetually agitating them and others who would do them good, if they had it in their power. He begged, instead of a simple negative, to move that the managers disapprove of the report, " Mr MUne seconded the motion. " On a division Mr Jack's motion was carried, and Mr Doud's rejected by a majority of 31 to 4." Upon the above, I have only to observe that, when our chief magistrate's *' anxiety to pre- vent the use of irregular expressions In the public discussions of the poorhouse managers, can go the length of seeing " nothing very irregular^' in branding the religion of the great majority of the christian world, as " flummery and nonsense" and Its professors, consequently, as fools and knaves ; It being, according to Sir James Forrest, " recognized in all the national Insti- tutions as a determination to which the government and authorities of the country had deliberately come with respect to that system,'* that It was one " founded on error, and main- tained hy delusion" no Instance o^ private liarshness of conduct towards Catholic paupers, on the part of the underlings of that establishment, need be very much wondered at. As a counterpart to what I have here felt It my duty to state regarding the unfair dealing to which our Catholic poor are too often subjected at the charity workhouse, as well as else- where, I have much pleasm-e In adding, that the managers of the royal Infinnary, to whom the Catholics of this city are under constant obligations, have in general been actuated by a very different spirit. Having been requested to furnish the Commission with any farther remarks I might have to make on the state of the poor, I beg to give it here as my conviction, a conviction arising out of my general knowledge and experience of the poor, that In order to effect any real improvement In the condition of our every day Increasing pauper population, we must look, not only to such of our already existing charitable institutions, as may call for reform, or to the expediency of erecting additional institutions, with a view to supply present deficiencies; but we must take Into consideration the absolute necessity of adopting such preventive mea- sures as may lead to the hope of diminishing, for the future, the causes of destitution. We must encourage the poor to love their own homes, and Avith that view, begin by enabling them to make such of their present dwellings as are at all capable of improvement, somewhat less Injurious than they now are, both to their health and to their morals. In a word, until the poor are made to feel, that poor laws and subscription books are not the only records of the interest taken In them by their more wealthy neighbours, but that Its most gratifying jiroof is to be gathered from a greater degree of kindly personal intercom-se between rich and poor, than now exists, they wIU never be roused to help themselves, nor will ever legislative wisdom be found to supply the place of christian charity. Examitmtions. Bishop "GilHs. 13 March 1843. 116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Exaniinatioo!, Rev. T. M'Crie. 13 M:inh I84S, Rev. Thomaa M'Crie, Examined: — ■ 2046. You belong to tlie secession cliurch in Edinburgh ? — I do, 2047. Have you had occasion to see much of tlie lower classes, particularly those who receive relief from the charity workhouse ?■ — Very little. 2048. Do the cases of those who belong to yovti church not come within your immediate notice ? — Yes ; but there are very few cases in my congregation. We have only nine or ten whom we supply occasionally, and two regularly. 204S). Do they also receive parochial relief? — I do not think so, in general ; but I know there are some cases in wliich they do. 2050. Do you hear many complaints of inadequacy of allowance ? — I have heard from individuals receiving that they considered the allowance very inadccpiate, and we found it necessary to give them something more in consequence. 2051. Did they complain of any partiality in favour of those that belonged to the Establishment ? — I never heard any such complaint. 2052. You have not been in the habit of visiting in the houses that do not belong to your own congregation ? — -Not much, unless sent for. 2053. Have you no personal knowledge of the general condition of the poor in Edin- burgh ? — Very little from personal intercourse or inspection. 2054. How many are there who receive relief from your funds ? — There are only two regularly receiving 2s. a \\'eek. 2055. Are these male or female? — One male and one female. There are nine or ten, as I said, to w hom we give occasional relief. We have a collection made on the first day of the year, and we give the most of that to the poor members. 2056. What part of the town is your place of worsliip? — Davie Street, off Nicolson Street. 2057. Is it in St Cutlibert's parish? — I believe so, though I am not exactly certain. 2058. Supposing the system of managing the poor were to be new-modelled, so that the charge of them were entirely undertaken by the kirk-sessions, do you think it possible to make any arrangement with dissenting bodies so as to take charge of a portion of the poor, upon the assumption that a poi'tion of the assessment would be contributed to them ? — I had a plan like that placed under my consideration some time ago. I thought it would be a very advisable plan. 2059. Do you mean that it might be made effectual ? — As to that I could not say. Pro- vided that other denominations in the country Avere as favom-able to the present establish- ment as ours is, I think there would be no danger in regard to it. 2060. Do you think it would be a better system of management than the present ? — I do. 2061. Have you funds for the maintenance of your poor, except what is raised at the chm-ch door by collections ? — No other, 2062. Do all the collections go the poor ? — No ; by no means. Most part of them go to pay other expenses, 2063. Are they distributed by the kirk-session ? — By the kirk-session. 2064. You would wish to see the whole management of the poor put imder the manage- ment of kirk-sessions ? — I think that woidd be a better system than the present one. 2065. Would you depend on voluntary contributions or assessments ? — On that point I could not give an opinion, not having made up my mind on the subject. Rev. 'i'. Clark, Rev. TTiomas Clark, Minister of the Old Church, Examined : — 2066. You are one of the parish ministers of Edinburgh ? — Yes, 2067. Have you had frequent occasion to see the state of the lower classes in your parish? — Since I came to Edinburgh, I have had much intercourse with them ; but my time here has been very short. 2068. How long have you been here ? — Since the month of August 1841. 2069. A considerable number of the inhabitants of yoiu" parish is composed of the lower classes ? — A great majority. 2070. Have you had occasion to visit their dwellings ? — I have been in every house at least once, and in many of them twenty times during the period already mentioned. 2071. That includes both those who receive parochial relief, and those who do not? — It includes eveiy inhabitant in the parish. 2072. Are there many in a very destitute state ? — I was not the least aware that such destitution existed in Scotland. 2073. Does that state extend to a large portion of those who receive parochial relief? — To the most of those who do receive parochial relief. Those who do receive parochial relief are not the most destitute. I mean in all cases. 2074. Are those who are not receiving parochial relief the able-bodied ? — There are a great many females who seem to have no visible means of subsistence, and are in a state of positive starvation. 2075. Are many of them of good character ? — I have no doubt that many of them are of very good character. 2076. Have you had occasion to inquire into the state of those who receive parochial re- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 117 lief? — I have done everything to ascertain something of their habits and character, before Examinationg. recommending them to parochial relief. It is very difficult for a stranger to obtain the - requisite information. I have made*inquiry at respectable parties, shopkeepers for instance, ?3*w,3 -h 'i^'rt in tlieir neighbourhood ; but the information there is not satisfactory. They sign any kind of certificate to those that take goods from them. 2077. Do you think the parochial allowance sufficient for their maintenance? — ^It is alto- gether and entirely inadequate. There are families who receive only 6d. a week, who have no other visible means of subsistence. The 6d. just paid for the room that sheltered them, and no more. They are in the habit of paying this weekly. The lowest sum that I found paid for a room was 4|d. I have found cases of two and three famiUes living in one i-oom, and paying for it 9d. a week ; but I have known cases where two or three families lived together, and paid 6d. a week. 2078. Had they, in general, other sources of income ? — None that I could discover. I visited ten rooms lately, and there was not a particle of furniture in any one of them. The people were lying on the floor, upon just as much straw as you could hold in your hands — say two or three pounds weight of straw. 2079. Is there much intemperance among them? — I fear there must be. I granted a little relief on going among them. I felt shocked at the destitution that prevailed ; and the temporary aid which I granted was not, I was told, very well applied. I have been able to bring thirty or forty to church, who had not been in a place of worship for many years before. They now regularly attend church. They are very decent persons. The want of clothing kept them away. 2080. Do many of those who receive parochial relief resort to begging ? — A good many of them go about with baskets, apparently with the object of selling small wares, to make a livelihood ; but they depend very little on this ; they depend much more on the food which they may get going from door to door. 2081. Of those you visited, have you any knowledge whether they are natives of Edin- burgh, or come from other quarters of the country — say from Ireland ? — In one district of my parish, a large proportion of the inhabitants come from Ireland — St Mary's Wynd, which is much frequented by Irish people ; in other districts, a large proportion come from the high- lands. I thought I might have been able to give you the proportions, and I am in the course of obtaining it. In a few weeks I shall know it. We are taking the statistics very accu- rately. Certainly a large proportion of the parish — ^much more than one-half of the popula- tion — belong to Scotland, and a great many to Edinburgh. 2082. Wliich proportion do you consider the poorer? — If you take the Irish, and the Catholic population from Ireland, with those from the highlands, so far as I can judge, pro- bably they form the majority of the actually poor ; but that is a point on which I may be wrong. I shall soon have it in my power to speak to this. 2083. Do you conceive that many from a distance come to Edinburgh for the sake of obtaining work, or to obtain a settlement ? — I cannot judge of the motives which may have brought them tO Edinburgh ; but, speaking of the highland population, a great many of them have been a long time here. There are among them some very old people, who came from Ross-shire and other parts of the highlands, and, of course, their descendants have grown up inhabitants and natives of Edinburgh. 2084. Have you any knowledge of the general causes of destitution — whether it arises from intemperance or the want of employment ? — No doubt a great deal of the destitution is caused by want of employment ; and my belief also is, that a great portion arises from in- temperance. But I have a strong impression, at the same time, that much of this arises from want of sympathy towards them, and want of superintendence of any kind. They have stated to me, that they regarded themselves as outcasts from the sympathy of their feUow-men. 2085. Do you thiiik their state of extreme destitution has been caused by intemperance ? — It must have been growing for a long time ; but intemperance adds greatly to the evil. They exist, for weeks together, without the least portion of fire, and, for days together, with- out tasting food. 2086. Are they all supplied with water ? — Last summer they were not ; but, altogether, they are very disagreeable places to visit. But, amidst all the evidence I have had of actual starvation, the strongest proof of it is, that I have seen them lift out of the gutter, green herbs, which they devoured greedily, and also olFals of fish, or what might be passing. 2087. The whole of your parish is within the ancient royalty ? — Yes ; it lies on the south side of the High Street, between that and the Cowgate. 2088. Have you any knowledge of other parts of the town ? — No personal knowledge, such as would entitle me to speak in regard to it. 2089. Do you conceive that the mode of administering relief by the charity workhouse is weU suited to its object? — Being a stranger, comparatively, in Edinburgh, it does not become me to speak with much confidence on the subject ; but I must say that I do not approve of the system of relieving want. 2090. Does it consist with your knowledge, that many persons entitled to parochial relief, cannot obtain it ? — There are cases where relief would have been granted at once, to those who cannot obtain it, were the administration of the poor funds in the hands of a kirk- session. 12091. Could you give us a list of such cases ? — I could soon liimish such a list. 2092. And you think the administration of the poor funds woidd be better in the hands of the kirk-session than as they are now administered ? — I have not the least doubt of that. I do not think that any system for the management of the poor coidd be under the manage- ment of persons who would more faithfully discharge this duty, than the kirk-session, 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Eicaniiiiations. 2093. Do you Conceive, that although they might set about it with zeal at first, they might not relax ? — Every body may fall into error, but the kirk-session is as free from that as an) i3*\i ^' r'^R "^ o'''^®^ body. If the system were properly kept up, as4 have no fear it woiJd be, I think it would work a very great reformation on the comforts and liabits of the poor. 2094. You me.an without increasing the number of kirk-sessions ? — Oh, certainly. I think kirk-sessions liave it in their power to divide, and have acted on the principle of subdividing parishes into small districts ; and, under a very vigilant eldership, the state of the poor would be more minutely looked into by them than by any other body. 2095. You would, in that case, contemplate the increase of the poor's fimds?— The result would be an increase of the fluids, seeing there is at present a necessity for such an increase. I have, however, no hesitation in saying, that the funds administered through such a channel, would be less in amount Avith greater effect, than they would be administered through any other channel. 2096. Supposing relief was adequately afforded to the poor, you are of opinion that the total amount to be levied would be probably less. Administered through the hands of the kirk-seasion than through the present management — is that your meaning? — Exactly my meaning. 2097. What is the population of your parish? — ^Within a few of 3000. 2098. What proportion of these do you consider to be paupers ? — It is difficult for me to say how many of them are paupers ; but that may be easily ascertained from the charity workhouse list ; but whatever the number may be, those needing relief greatly exceed those receiving it. 2099. Are there many public houses in the parish? — A great many. 2100. Is the number of public houses one of the causes that lead to destitution ? — I have always thought that facilities of indulging in the habit of drinking were most injurious to the poor. 2101. Has it a tendency to create destitution in itself? — I think so. Everything that induces them to spend their money improperly, creates destitution. 2102. Woidd it be a great improvement if the number of public houses were lessened? — Thinking the indidgence in intoxicating liquors an evil, I cannot help thinking that the removal or the lessening of them woidd do good. 2103. What parish were you minister of before you came to Edinburgh? — The parish of Methvcn, in the presbytery of Perth, a landward parish. 2104. What is its population ? — I believe between 2000 and 3000. There is a village in it with a popidation of about 1000, another with a population of 400, and another about 100. 2105. Was there an assessment in the parish ? — Yes, there has been for a great many years. At the time I went there, in 1824, they had discontiniled the assessment, and attempted a voluntary contribution ; but this did not succeed, and they were obliged again to have recourse to an assessment. 2106. Do you approve of the system of voluntary contribution, or of that of assessment ? — In all cases where voluntary contribution Avill meet the wants of the poor, I approve of it highly. An assessment never should be resorted to, when it can be avoided ; and in almost all the parishes in Scotland it might be avoided with a little management. 2107. Could it be avoided in Edinburgh? — I do not think it possible. 2108. Do you think the present system of poor laws, as regards rural parishes, beneficial? — I think it is excellent. 1 shoidd tliink it dangerous to interfere with rm'al districts by the introduction of a new system. I 2109. Is your experience such as to lead you to be of opinion, that, in as far as great towns are concerned, it woidd be necessary to change the present system ? — -Some change is neces- sary. The destitution is so great, that danger arises from it. If there be not some change, you will have positive starvation, which is very likely to be succeeded by something dis- agreeable. It is a very difficidt matter to quiet starving people. 2110. Are you of opinion that the system of moral instniction, generally diffused in large towns, where every person can obtain instruction, would have a considerable tendency to keep down pauperism ? — That is the first improvement in the country that wUl lead to a beneficial result. A great deal has been done in Edinburgh, in the way of education. In my parish, my object is, that not a child in it shaU be untaught, who will attend school. There are a few at present who do not attend school, — the children of a few persons whose antipathies are not overcome. I hope, before other twelve months shall have passed, to have every child in the parish attending school. 2111. Have you any knowledge of temperance societies? — None. I never had it in my power to attend any of their meetings. I do not know their operations. 2112. How will you be able to accomplish the education of the children in your parish? — Great facilities have been created by the establishment of outdoor Heriot schools ; and should we not have the means of educating them there, we are resolved to establish a school, by private means, where every child -shall have the facUitics of education. 2113. Are there many cases of imposition, do you think, in the charity workhouse list? — I have not the least doubt of it. 2114. To a considerable extent? — Judging from my own parish, I cannot doubt it. 2115. It is from that you infer, that if the funds were managed by the kirk-session, the expense would be less ? — Yes ; but that is but the least advantage that would arise from such a system. You would communicate satisfaction and awaken a grateful feeling in the parties receiving reUcf. They do not receive it now in the same spirit, and with the same respect, that they would receive it, if administered by the kirk-session. I may have received my impressions from my country parish, but nevertheless I am of this opinion. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOE SCOTLAND. 119 I 2116. You would look for improvement in the habits of the people by having the parochijj allowance distributed by kirk-sessions ? — Yes. 2117. You state, in regard to pubfic houses, that you consider the existence of so great a number of them as a considerable cause of destitution. Do you think it would be an induce- ment to the people to give up the habit of taking ardent spirits, if they could get comforts of another description, such as tea and coffee ? — I think it would be a good thing to try ; but I do not know any habit so difficult to meet and overcome as intemperance, 'rhc good chiefly to be done, in this way, is to prevent the rising generation from acquiring that habit. 2118. Do you visit those out of employment ? — Yes. 2119. What is the condition of that class? — They are very ill off. No description, I think, would give an idea of their state. A husband and wife, with seven or eight children, must be in a very miserable condition, when the husband Is partially employed, earning lOd. a day, .and some days in the week Idle. What must their condition be, when he Is out of employment altogether ? 2120. Your opinion with respect to the kirk-session having the management of the fimda does not go on the supposition that it is desirable that able-bodied men, when out of employ- ment, should be entitled to relief? — Certainly not ; but in funds administered by the klrk- session much good may be done in this way. By temporary relief you might carry them through a difficidty, and then they might go on again comfortably. A very little timely reUef Is of great importance In this respect ; and tlie best way to administer it would be through tlie hands of the kirk-session. 2121. Do you think it would be a good rule that able-bodied persons should be entitled to relief ?— I am not prepared to give an opinion whether able-bodied persons should get relief. 2122. Have you turned your attention to savings-banks? — We had an important institu- tion of that kind iu Methven, and it did the greatest possible good ; and In towns, I believe it is doing a great deal of good also. If once a servant can be got to put in a pound into a savings-bank, he or she will be very frugal afterwards, in order to add to it. 2123. Do you find any difficulty in getting persons to fonn your kirk-session in Edin- burgh ?— I do not. I do not think any minister would find it difficult to get wortliy per- sons to co-operate with him in his labours. In regai'd to my own session, not long ago, when the destitution was great, they besought me to have a collection for the relief of the desti- tute In the parish, and it was readily responded to, and it did a great deal of good. AYe relieved many of the poor by it. We got twenty guineas from a small congregation, and it did much good at the time. 2124. What Is the average rents of the houses occupied by those very poor people? — 6d. a week. I have not traced the average anything beyond that, — all paid weekly, and gene- rally paid In advance. There are a few landlords who take payment by the year or half- year, — then the tenants pay about 26s. a year. 2125. You would say the average is 6d. ? — Yes ; you find them at 4^d. and T^d. a week, and 6d. is the average. 2126. Can you state the difference between the rents of cottages in the country and the poor people's houses in the town ? — In the covmtry the rents are higher, but then there is far better accommodation, — double the acconmiodatlon, and many comforts in other respects. 2127. Looking to the condition of the poor in towns and country parishes comparatively, which of them are better provided for ? — There is no comparison between them at all. 1 never knew what destitution was, among the poor In the countiy. I never saw a case of destitution that I could not reheve before the sun went down ; but here there are thousands of cases that you cannot relieve. 2128. Does this arise from their receiving a larger allowance in the country than here ? — To some extent in the country they receive a larger sum ; and they are all known to their neighbours, and they get a great deal of private charity. 2129. Ai-e the funds received from the sessional funds In the country greater or less than what they receive here ? — They are much greater in the country. Those who get 6d. a week would get Is. In the country. 2130. These observations apply to your own parish of Methven? — They do; but the sys- tem is the same in the parishes around. 2131. You say that there are many females in your parish without visible means of sub- sistence, — what ages ?— All ages, from eighty to young girls, but rather old than young. They have no clothing. I have gone Into rooms where I found them without clothing. 2132. Have you had an opportunity of Inquu-Ing into the cause that brought them Into this state ? — They attribute it to want of employment. They are aU willing to work. 2133. You say it is principally owing to the want of clothing, and partly to intemperance ? — Yes ; but there are a great many females who can get no kind of employment, and are refused relief when they go to the workhouse, being told that they are able-bodied. 2134. Does your description apply to highlanders and Lish more than to the people who are natives of the lowlands In Scotland ? — Certainly not. AU these poor people ai-e quite on a level. Nothing can be worse than their habitations. 2135. Wliat objections have you to the present administration of the workhouse flmds ? — When the poor peoj^le get a schedule from the charity workhouse, they must have two house- holders to subscribe It, and the minister of the parish. I do not think the householders make sufficient Inquiry in regard to the character and necessities of the individual ; and when the schedule Is signed by the minister, they send an individual to make Inquliy into their cha- racter, and habits, and necessities. It M'ould be better that the kkk-sesslon were fully acquainted with the character of the pai-tles, and that, on granting a certificate of their being Ex.Miiiiiations. ReT. T. Clark. 13 March 1843. 120 MINUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, proper objects of relief, they should receive it. It is a hard matter that they should be put off from week to week, and their relief delayed. 13 .Msicli ma. 2136. You object to the present system chiefly on the ground of its opening a way to imposition, and partly to the people not being properly dealt with ? — Yes. 2137. What is tlie comparative size of your parish and that of St Stephen's? — My own is the largest parish of any in the Old Town. St Stephen's contains a population of 5000 and a few hundreds. The destitution in that parish is not so great as in my parish. 2138. Do you consider that a manageable population for a minister and kirk-session ? — Tt may be considered a large popidation for the management of a minister and kirk-session ; but that parish is not so diflficidt to manage as far as the poor is concerned, as my parish of 3000, where there is a much greater amount of destitution. In St Stephen's there is a much greater amount of aflfluent people. 2139. Would you approve of the system of loan funds? — My opinion is not sufficiently formed in regard to them, to say anything on the subject. 2140. You mention that a little, given from the kirk-session, would prevent much misery ? — I do believe, that if you kept a family from coming on the public fund for a month or two, you might keep them off for years. K a poor loan were well managed and regulated, it would do a great deal of good. 2141. Supposing the administration to be tlirough the kirk-sessions, would you have great difficulty in dealing with dissenters ? — Not the least, so far as I can judge. I have visited every house, even the houses of the Roman Catholics, and instead of meeting with incivility, I have been received Avith tlie greatest civility by all classes. I would feel no difficulty in dealing with dissenters. I would have a certificate from the clergymen of those attending dissenting churches, as evidence of the character of the parties applying for relief. 2142. While every mode of management may be liable to be less efficient at times, yet if different kirk-sessions were to report as to the state of their poor to any public board, say to the General Assembly, would that not be an effectual means of keeping up the vigour of administration through the hands of kirk-sessions ? — A very great means. 2143. You would have no fear of the efficiency of kirk-sessions dying away? — Not in the least. It would be a good stimulus to report the state of the poor to a body such as the General Assembly. 2144. Although an assessment should never be dispensed Avltli, yet, if the poor's funds were thus administered, and if they were attended to in the manner you have pointed out to us, you would ultimately contemplate a more comfortable management of the poor, and probably also a less expensive management ? — Yes, a more comfortable management. I doubt if you would ever diminish your expenses materially, considering the Increase of the population. 2145. Would you contemplate abolishing the workliouses ? — I would not like to venture an opinion on that question, it is so broad. 2146. How would you contemplate the management of the workhouse ? — It is difficult to say. The adoption of a new system woidd lead to a change in the management. 2147. Without any change In the law of administration, and placing it in the hands of the kirk-session, do you not think It would be beneficial to assist, to a small extent, able-bodied persons, without recognizing in them a legal claim ?— rUndoubtedly. I believe it would be attended generally with good. We diminished the assessment one-half in Methven. It was a place of considerable dissent, and a habit prevailed there, which appeared to me to be objectionable. The assessment was levied and administered through the heritors and kirk- session, in addition to the collections at the church door, and the secession meeting-house ; and they used to go on in this way. The dissenters said to the Established church. If you give Is. to the family, we will give 6d. I suggested to the heritors the propriety of keeping our collections for our own people, and I would undertake to feed the whole of our 0A\n poor, with the collections at the church door, and to administer the assessment in a legal way to those whom we did not so well know about. We adopted that system, and we diminished the assessment in two years to about one-half. I thought there was an abiise of the funds, some were getting too much, and some not enough. We made an offer to the dissenters, to throw the whole funds into one general fund, and to take them in. They refused to co-02)erutc with us. They said they woidd give 51. to our 100/., and on this they asked an equal share in the management. 2148. In so far as your own congregation was concerned, you did away with assessments altogether? — So far as my own congregation was concerned. 2149. Have you had an opportunity of ascertaining whether there is any distinction on the score of nation or religion. In the administration of the poor funds by the charity workhouse? — I never heard of a case stated where a distinction was drawn. One Englishwoman made a complaint which I did not think was well founded. She was refused on the ground that she was able to maintain herself. 2150. From your experience, do you know whether old farm-servants above fifty find any difficulty in residing In parishes where they had work ? — Oh, no ; not even above sixty. I never found any difficulty whatever in their being maintained, or obtaining a cottage in the parish where they had wrought. 2151. In addition to what you have suggested is there anything that occurs to you that you wish to suggest to the Commission ? — I should hesitate to suggest anything to a meet- ing such as this. 2152. What was the amount of assessment in Methven ? — About 60/. a year. I think the highest we ever had was 120/., and that was to meet some emergencies from want of trade. 2153. The diminution in the assessment did not diminish the allowance granted to the poor ? — No ; I think there was rather an mcrease. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 121 Mr John WiglMm, Examined : — 2154. You are one of the managers of the West Church charity workhouse ? — I was at one time, — not for tlie last three years. 2155. Have you had much occasion to be acquainted with the state of the lower classes of the poor in Edinburgh ? — I was in business as a silk manufacturer upwards of twenty years, and, of course, came in contact very much with the working classes. After I retired from business, some six years previously to 1839, I took the charge of the poor of the parish in which I live, St Cuthbert's parish, and served six years. I entered into the duties with very great warmth, and devoted my whole time to them for years. I retired from it about three yefirs ago, and became a member of the prison board. 2156. Had you frequent occasion to visit the dwellings of the poor during your manage- ment in the West Church ? — Yes. 2157. Is it consistent with your knowledge that they were generally in a verj' destitute state ? — There were seasons when they were in greater destitution than in general. I have seen great destitution ceilainly. The cases which I more particularly visited were cases con- nected with the application for relief from the parish. 2158. Did it ajipearto you that the allowance from the West Church parish was in general sufficient for the maintenance of the poor ? — One part of the allowance I approved of, the allowance which was always given to single aged paupers, although it was very low cer- tainly, not amounting to more than Is. a week, or rather less sometimes ; yet I approved of it on the principle, or from the consideration, that those aged paupers were uniformly told that this allowance was only intended as a help to them, to aid anything that they might be able to get by working with their hands, or anything they might get from their relations, so as to assist them to Uve ; and if they could not hve in this way, they would be taken into the workhouse. I tliink this is a sound principle. There is no necessity for a large allow- ance when the workhouse is oflPered. But another part of the practice to which I had great objections, and which is attended with suffering and cruelty, was the treatment of mdows and children. When I first understood this practice, I felt that there was very great oppression, and a great want of proper treatment to this class. They did not give them the option of a residence in the workhouse either for themselves or their children. The plan pursued was this, they told the poor people, in allowing them a mere pittance, — " this is aU we can give you, whatever may be the circumstances of your famihes," — and the pittance was always scanty enough. The poor have the idea that there is no appeal from the decision of managers of the workhouse, and that is so fivr true ; but there is an appeal I presume to the Coiut of Session. I have known the individual case of a woman with a child at the breast not many months old, and perhaps three more under twelve years, who was told that from the regulations laid down they could only give her 8s. 4d. a month — that that was the highest allowance to such as she was. The woman had nothing for it but to accept it. There were some instances m which females were very much distressed, when some of their family were taken into the workhouse to reheve them and make the family less. The workhouse is not very large, particidarly in the children's department, and they can only take in a certain portion. I find in looking over the Ust pubhshed in 1841 by the workliouse managers since I left it, that there are 636 ■w'idows upon it. When I was one of the managers, we did not pubHsh 80 minute a list. I dare say you are already aware that the parish has a large number of managers, 120 altogether, who subdivide the labour, and are formed into boards. When 1 was a manager we were fortned into sLx different boards. We had monthly meetings, and it depends a good deal whether they are humane persons who constitute the board, how these poor widows fare. Hence there is a great difference in the allowance given to different women having the same number of children. I find in this list two with five children, under twelve years of age receiving 4s. and 5s. per month ; others with three children receiving 8s. ; others with foiu- receiving 5s. ; others with the same number receiving 8s. ; one widow with five children under twelve years of age, receiving only 3s. per month, while there is one with two children, one of them on the breast, receiving 10s. per month. There are five widows with five children, receiving only 6s. per month ; while there is only one with that number receiving so much as 8s. I find out of 636 widows, many of them with large families, there is only one receiving so much as 128. per month, six are receiving 10s., and two 8s. 4d. per month, fourteen only receive so much as 8s. ; the remainder have smaller sums, down to 28. and 3s. per month. 2159. Does that difference arise from the paupers being in different circumstances? — That ought to be the only regulation ; but a great denl depends on the persons who consti- tute those boards, whether they are sympathizing and tender hearted towards the poor. These very scanty allowances, given to widows, and not having the option of going into the workhouse, stnick me, from the very first, to be attended with great suffering and cruelty ; and I strove, during the whole time that I was a manager, to induce my fellow managers either to increase the allowances to these women, or give them the option of the workhouse for their childi-en. I took steps to get all the conveners of the committees to- gether. They were of my sentiment, that the regulation ought to be altered. However, when Ave came to the general meeting of managers, they would not accede to it. The majority came more to try to save money in their pockets, and keep the allowances down, than from any other consideration. At last I made one effort to bring the matter before a general meeting of the heritors, and tried it there : however, there also I lost it. A consi- derable number took the same view of the matter which I did, but our efforts were never- theless ineffectual. I was so vexed, and almost disgusted with the existing state of matters, R Examinations. Mr J. Wigham. 13 March 184a. VIr. J. \\'i{;liaiii. )3 March 1U43. 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ExiiminMious. that I quitted the board. I have continued ever since to consider that part of the system in the West Church charity workhouse as very faulty. The strongest reason expressed by those who were opj^osed to us, was, that if we were liberal in the parish, all the surrounding parishes being the contrary, we should be inimdated with paupers, and that, therefore, we must liold back. I pled that if the heritors would agree to raise the allowance, that we woidd become a model to other parishes ; and that, with no gi'eat additional exj)cnse, we coidd treat our widows more liberally. I showed them that a half|)enny in the pound on the assessment would enable them to give all their widows double the allowance, but all woidd not do. I believe that serious results arise fi-om the extremely limited manner in which the widows are supported, not only in the large parish of St Cuthbcrt, but all over Scotland. I frequently find women going about begging, and they have told me that all the allowance they got was Is. per week. 1 have found women having children with 3s. and 4s. a month going about begging, and they said they could not support their children with- out begging, and the consequence is that the children are first beggars, then they steal, and are sent to prison in great numbers. 2160. Do you conceive that a more eligible system of management than that which now prevails in tlie West Chm-ch charity workhouse might be adopted with advantage in regartl to the ordinary poor, — for instance by employing the kii-k-session, or paid inspectors ? — In regard to the kirk-session they confessed the parish being so large, it was out of their jwwer to take the management, and they gave it up in despair. It contains 70,000 inhabitants. It is an inunense parish. The jiresent system has some advantages ; but it is not a system that wUl do permanently. I think that even now, and before I left the management, there were symptoms of j)ersons getting tired of it. They did not do the duties efficiently, and there was this disadvantage that there was no equality of allowanco in similar cases. Much depended in regard to the amount of allowance, whether the parties at the board were or were not liberally inclined towards the poor. The board to which I belonged was held to be rather a liberal one, — we were as liberal as we could, but we were circumscribed. I am aware that there were great differences in the boards. I do not think the kirk-session system would do as a permanent system. 2161. Your opinion is that there should be paid inspectors? — Yes; I tliink there shoidd be paid inspectors. 2162. Are you at aU acquainted with the system of management in rural parishes? — I have paid a little attention to it ; I have read much of what has been pubHshed on the subject. 2163. Do you tliink that the system could be improved in regard to them? — The best consideration I have been able to give to the subject, leads me to be of ojiinion that you cannot have an efficient system of managing the poor without a workhouse. Of com-se I must explain that I would not have them so numerous as they are in England ; but you must have workhouses to do justice to the poor, and oi-jjhane, and prevent aged people from wan- dering about the country, having nobody to take care of them. Such persons should be placed in workhouses ; and there is no other way of getting quit of begging but this. By adopting the workhouse system you would be able to put down begging, because any one found begging woidd be placed in the nearest workhouse, till it Avas seen who was to take charge of him. ^Miile I say that, I am favourable to the system of doing as much as possible in outdoor relief, and in taking that kind of care of the poor which is so well de- scribed by Dr Chalmers, by keeping them from falling down, which is the veiy way to prevent giuperism. Still we must have workliouses. They are very useftd in testing impostures, ersons who take too much drink cannot be taken care of any where but in the workhouse. We found persons who were desirous of receiving outdoor allowance. When we traced that they had relations that could assist them, we offered them the workhouse, and we got rid of them altogether. 2164. In recommending workhouses, do you contemplate them not only for the ordinary poor, but also for the unemployed ? — I do not see, in the present state of the countrj\ how we can get on without taking cognizance of the unemployed able-bodied poor. I have no doubt that, in oiu- earlier history, when the population was small, that matters went on com- paratively well, and without destitution ; but now our large manufacturing towns have placed things in a different position. If we embrace all classes of i)oor, we must have workhouses. I would not be for using them' as the commissioners in England recommend them to be used. The ideas and habits of the people of Scotland are somewhat different fi-om those of England ; but you must have a workhouse for the aged who have nobody to take care of them, and for orphans, and by which you can test applicants generally for parochial allowance. 2165. Are you acquainted with the system of administering the poor laws in England? — I have read some of the reports ; but 1 am not acquainted with the minutiaj of the system. 2166. Do you conceive it would be applicable to Scotland? — I have never ventured to contemplate anything so extensive as the English poor law for Scotland. I woidd rather see a middle course taken. 2167. Have you formed any opinion as to whether any alteration of the Scottish poor law- would be necessary ? — I have been thinking of it a good deid. A sort of outline of what has occurred to me is this. I think there should be a board of management to keep it in order. We might do with one paid commissioner and a board to assist liim ; and the law ought to give that board certain powers to carry the law into effect. After a great deal of thought about the residence, I tliink that three years is too short a duration. I think almost all persons agree as to this. Some persons whose judgment I value, say it ought to be six or seven years. I think that the strongest cheek and the soundest pi-inciple is birth, — this should be the oidy settlement for a legiu claim. There is great difficulty in ascertain- 1:J March 1843. I I POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 123 ing the settlement now, when the residence is only three years ; and the poor are often buf- Examinations. feted about in a shameful manner before they can get a resting-place anywhere. There have been about forty disputes in regard to residence between the city and the West Kirk ^^'' ^- ^^''g'lai'- parish. Now, if that difficidty is so great when the residence is three years, how mucli gi'eatcr would it be if the residence extended to seven years or ten years. It is much easier to find out the place of birth. I would make the place of birth, then, give the title to relief; and then I would have a workhouse union of parishes, and I would have this board to define what this union shoidd be. I would have them made to serve a considerable district of country. I ought to have said fii-st, that I think every parish ought to have only the rate-payers called together, — and they ought to appoint a committee to take care of the poor. It would be better to have this in the hands of rate-payers than in the hands of kirk-sessions. It ought, in fau-ness, to be on the principle of representation. Then the parish union where the workhouse was would be imder the care of pei-sons ajipointed by each of the parishes. Each parish would send one person or more to attend to the work- house. And it woidd be important to have one establishment in the country for boys, and another for girls, separately from the old people, on the princii)le of a boarding school. I would ijrojiose that the parishes should be left to work their own affairs very much in their own way. I shoidd like to see them continue to give outdoor relief, and take charge of the poor in the way Dr Chalmers recommends, by carefully looking after them, and keeping them up ; and in order to get rid of this stinginess as to allowance, I think the law should give power to the pauper to appeal to the slierifF without expense; and I would not have the sheriff" have power to interfere with the allowance, but that he should have power to send the pauper to the workhouse if he considered the allowance too little. I believe, with the feeling in this country, if the heritors did anything like justice to the poor in point of pro- vision, that few of them would wish to go to the workliouse. There is a very strong feel- ing in the people against going there. I find however, when once they are in, it is trouble- some to get them out of it again, from feeling themselves pretty comfortable. In this way, a law such as I have sketched out, would leave it in the hands of the parish to conduct their affairs in the way they have been accustomed to do. If the poor could not hve by the allow- ance given them, they would apply to the sheriff; who could send them to the workhouse. On the other hand, the parishioners would have the strongest inducement to do the business without coming to the sheriff; because it woidd cost them less to do it in their own way, than to send them to the workhouse and keep them there. I am fully aware that there is a strong feeling in this country against parochial relief, such as is estabUshed in England. They dread tiie expense of it. They do not like the workhouse system, not only for the expense of it, but for the feeUngs of the poor themselves. I confess I woidd have these workhouses rather as a test, and I tliink they are valuable for orphan children. No part of tiie West Church duties were more agreeable than the care which is taken of the orphan children. We established a rule that their education shall be carried on rcgvdarly. When the girls are applied for as servants, great care is taken to place them with persons of good character. It is the same way with the boys. We are very particiUar in sending them to pious, sober men that will take care of them. And if the gii'ls do not succeed or get out of employment, the matron is instructed to receive them back, get their clothes renewed, and take care of them till they are sent off" elsewhere. The workhouse is very favourable to paupers taking too much diiidc, who never can conduct themselves properly out of the workhouse. 2168. In regard to country parishes, to M'liich you have alluded, do you think that the situsition of the poor in the rural districts of Scotland where there is an assessment, as bad as it is in the large towns ? — I should think not so bad. 2169. Do you conceive it to be bad generally in the raral districts ? — I think the thing is very inefficiently done throughout the country. I do not think that in any parishes except- ing Berwickshire and Roxburghshire, the allowance given to ^\^dows is adequate to keep them from being beggars. In these two counties they do the thing almost as well as in England. 2170. You have suggested a parochial committee of rate-payers : does it not occur to you that the same objection you take to the managers of the charity workhouse might be taken to them, namely, getting slack in their duty ? — I should contemplate, that if the parish were large, they should have the power to hire persons to assist. If they could do it themselves in raral districts they would do it better than is down in towns ; but they should have power to emjdoy a person if necessary. 2171. Have you reason to believe that there are many persons in nu-al districts at present out of employment ? — In strictly rural districts perhaps not many. They are going on with a grcat^ deal of draing, but there are many parishes that have small towns within them in which weaving goes on where there is a great deal of distress. In regard to nu-al districts my im- })ression is, that there are not many out of employment. The reason is, that they have no houses in which to keep paupers. It has become common in rural districts for the farmers only to make accommodation for their ploughmen ; and when they get feeble and are not able to do the work, they must march off and come to town, and allow able-bodied men to take their places. Hence the toA\Tis receive an undue share of the bm'den in that way. 2172. Do you know individual instances of parties who have come into town in that man- ner ? — A\nien I was going about the West Church parish, I knew many decided instances of this. There is a strong proof in this very list of St Cuthbert's parish, of 106 individuals now on the outdoor jioor-roll, who, I have no doubt, if questioned in regai-d to their history, would tell you that this was their condition. You have all their addresses on the list which I beg to hand in. I have no doubt that the great bulk of them have been worn out in rur^l 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations, districts. They nearly all come from distant places, where there is no provision for the poor ; _ and when age creeps upon them, they think of going to Edinburgh, for instance, to get a iSMarch^itus'. little employment, and then they get on as weU as they can for three years, and are put upon the parish roll. 2173. Would you not think it a hard thing that the mere accident of birth should com- pel the parish to maintain a pauper when he has lived in the j)rime of his days, and the greater part of Ids life elsewhere ? — No doubt ; but in tliis state of matters you must give and take, and the question is, what is the best arrangement. 2174. In agiicultm-al districts would you give able-bodied persons a right to relief? — I do not think you can se]>arate the cases. If you allow the same system of relief to go on that is now, and give them outdoor relief, it might be prejudicial ; but if you test them with the workhouse, with early hours and fidl employment when there, making it as disagreeable to them as you well can, while you give them the necessaries of life, you would not be over- whebned with them. You could give rehef to able-bodied men in the workhouse ; but I would leave it to the rate-payers to give them outdoor relief or not as they thought proper. If they were good men, men whom aU the neighbom-s knew to be worthy men, where would be the use of sending such men and their wives to the workliouse ; but if you find an iille trifling sort of person, not willing to work, there is nothing for him but to send him to the workhouse. 2175. Are you aware that in England they can give relief in cases of sickness out of the workhouse ? — Yes ; and they are obliged, I think, to give relief to able-bodied persons out of doors, when there is not room in the workliouse. The impression on my mind strongly is, that there would be a very strong feeling in this country against what may be called a thorough workhouse system, which is inculcated by the commissioners in England. It would not go down at all. Persons who, seeing the individuals, would say, " we know all about these men, and we wiU not send them to the workhouse," — and they know how to do the thing econoniically in this country, — there is not the least fear of that. 217G. You would have workhouses to frighten people? — I would have them very much as a test, particidarly to the able-bodied. 2177. As a member of the prison board, has anything come under your notice in regard to the provision for the poor ? — The impression on my mind is, that the poor laws, as admi- nistered in Scotland, is very much calcidated to fiU our prisons, — to make prisoners. This has been a strong impression on my mind aU along. In Captain Rose's time, I asked him if he would favour me by calling up three of the youngest boys, — taking them promiscu- ously. He did so. I found, on talking with them, that two of them stated they belonged to Leith. Both their mothers were widows. They acknowledged that their mothers had sometliing from the parish, but that they were sent out to beg, and their mothers went out to wash, and to employment of that kind. They acknowledged that they became pilferers, and in consequence had been put in jail. I thought I saw quite clearly, that if these clul- dren hatl been put in a workhouse, and cared for, they would have been saved, and there would have been a great saving of expense in saving them. For when a family of children go wrong, see in point of expense, what this leads to ! You are at the expense of building and upholding prisons. They are tried at the public expense, and sent abroad. All this woidd come to such a sum as woidd keep them at a boarding-school all their lives. There are two or three cases in Frederick Hill's report about the volmitary prisoners in Glasgow, which go strongly to prove, that if these children were better cared for, there would have been fewer of them in jaU. If there were care taken of the unemployed able-bodied, it would save a great deal of distress, and prevent crime. I have been a director of the lock hos- pital for a few years, where great misery and distress appears. The same conviction has been brought to my mind on hearing about those poor girls who are placed there. A greater proportion of the prostitutes of the lower classes become such for want of proper attention. Some of them have bad and drunken parents. A great number, from want of care, have become entirely lost. There were at one time quarterly reports of the prisoners sent in to us at the General Prison Board. I hold one of them in my hand, — " Abstract Report of Prisoners in the Counties of Scotland, on the 1st day of October 1840, at noon, made up from Returns by the several County Prison Boards, to the Genei-al Board of Directors of Prisons, Edinburgh." Here is a list of all the prisons in Scotland, which con- veys to us a gi-eat deal of information. Here we have a classification of the age and sex of criminal prisoners. I find this in all the returns, — this one is not selected for the purpose. If you take the large towns of Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Dundee, you will find that from twelve years, and under sixteen, the great bulk of the prisoners are boys. In Dundee there are, according to this list, twelve boys and two girls. Wlien you come to a greater age, sixteen and above twelve, you have thirteen boys and five girls. In Glasgow, under twelve years of age, here are fifteen males and four girls. Aged sixteen years and above twelve, here are sixty-seven males and twenty-two females. Edinburgh is more striking still ; here you have, of the tender age of twelve and under, twenty-five males and only one female ; next, sixteen years and under twelve, you have seventy-two males and one female. The only interpretation I can put on this is, that these poor neglected females generally go to the street, and fill the brothels ; and the boys, not having resources by which to get a piece of bread, become thieves and inmates of our prisons ; and my examination of the Leith boys tends much to prove it. I am inclined to think, that in this way we hardly know the vice and the immorality that is produced by the want of care that ought to be extended towards the young. If such care were taken, it would have aU the wisdom in it of cutting oft' the spring in the centre of a field which had inundated the whole of it. It would stop the resources of immorality and distress in the coimtry. I often wonder thut kii-k-scssions I POOR LAW INQUIRY COMAHSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 125 lose sight of this, and allow their widows with their children to go about begging. It is a Examinations. perfect manufactory of crime, and I wonder that they allow it to go on when it is so simple — a matter to prevent it. If we had a good poor law, and workhouses on a right footing, and ^^/^-^/^yiJ^i'gj'^'' an appeal to the sheriff, which would enable them to put a stop to begging, I should expect a new era in this country altogether. 2178. Does not the same thing, as neglected children, occur in London and other towns in England ? — No doubt of it, to some extent. But a good poor law, and care taken of the young, must save a great many. Many bad parents bring up their children wretchedly, and do not apply for relief. 2179. Is the proportion of male and female convicts, of that early age, in Scotland, diffe- rent from what it is in England ? — I cannot say. If you follow the list a little higher up in age, you will find that the females preponderate. 2180. As far as young children are concerned, would not schools be a better thing than the workhouse ? — You might have schools ; but those orjjhan children that are altogether left, or those children who have bad parents, must have somebody to take care of them. In Glasgow, where they board their orphans out, the people with whom they are boarded must be very poor, from the small sum for which they take the children. These little urchins are sent out to inferior situations, and I look on it that they are in a worse situation than we in Edinburgh. In a workhouse they have a proper, though humble, bringing up ; twopence or twopence-half-penny a day would feed them. The result of this part of the West Church workhouse was more satisfactory to me than anything in the whole management. 2181. Do you not think that these young people would be equally well provided for by sending them to be educated in the coimtry ? — If you can get proper persons to send them to. It might do very well. 2182. That would supersede the necessity of workhouses for education ? — There is nothing to prevent parishes from taking any way they think best to provide for the children ; but I rather think if you had a portion of your workhouses for boys, and another for girls, it would be an excellent thing, — it would be just a humble boarding-school ; and if you had a piece of land attached to it, the boys woidd be taught to work. The girls in the West Church work- house, when old enough, are taught to clean the house, to wash, and do other female work. 2183. Would you wish the workhouses to be large?— I shoidd wish to see it enlarged, but very cautiously. Workhouses should not be built over large at first, but on a plan capable of being enlarged. Every district should have a workhouse. I would have begging put do^vn from one end of the country to the other. It is fraught with much demorahzation, waste, and crime. 2184. The chief object you would have in view, as regards the workhouse, would be as a test ? — Partly ; but not altogether. They would be of the greatest importance to orphan children, and to people that indulge in spirituous liquors. How can you manage men and women who get into that state without a workhouse ? they are like deranged people. 2185. You have said that, in the present state of the coimtry, it is absolutely necessary to take cognizance of the unemployed. The present state of depression may not continue : may there not be a revival ? — It may be possible that Britain may have seen the maximum in regard to its manufactm-es. All the European states, and American, are setting up as manufacturers ; but, independently of that, supposing I could contemplate that this was one of those stagnations that may come round again, still in such towns as Glasgow and Paisley, I do not see how you can get on with efficiency without taking cognizance of able- bodied people. In Edinburgh, the time was when women could get their bread by knitting and spinning. I give employment to a woman in Edinburgh in spinning. A tradesman said to me. You gave so much for your flax, and so much for your spinning, while you can get it thrown off by machinery. I can give it you finer and far cheaper than you can make it. What, then, are the poor women to do ? Suppose these sources of employment for women dried up, it increases the number of sewers. All the shirt-makers and slop-shops take advantage of this, and reduce prices to a mere nothing ; and the wonder is, how women can keep life in them. When they are partly worn out, and not fit for household servants, what is to be done with them ? I am of opinion that provision must be made for the unemployed, but from the general feeling of independence, if judiciously done, the effects would be most beneficial, without entailing a very heavy burthen. 21*86. Make the supposition that a provision were made by law for the xmemployed able- bodied poor in times of depression such as the present, — in these circumstances the unem- ployed poor would have a right to demand that provision, would it not prevent them from mi- grating and seeking employment in other quarters ? — I think not. You would be always testing them with the workhouse. One cfrcumstance that weighed much on my mind in regard to the time of settlement, making it birth in place of residence for a period of years, was this : if you did not extend it beyond seven years, then I fear that such toAvns as Glasgow and Paisley wovJd be quite swamped ; but if you made birth the test, you would only have a due proportion of persons, and Ireland and the highlands, from whence they came, would have to do theu* part. 2187. Would you not think it suflScient, in providing for the unemployed poor, that there should be some enactment by which a part of the assessment should be given for their rehefj and that there should be no permanent law to that effect ? — The question would here be, when you would commence it, and when leave it off. I want to do the thing efficiently. 2188. You woidd rest all your hopes of success upon the temper and spirit of the country rather than on the law itself? — Yes, and the checks that woidd exist. I think the workhouse would be a good check. Although they have more comforts in a workhouse than out of it, yet all the restraints and irksomeness of it, make it very disagreeable to them. 126 MINUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiiiiiiatiuns. 2180. Have you had any opportunities of knowing anything about the penitentiaries ui M T -ur-,,] Ghisgow, built ten or twelve years ago for boys ? — Yes. 13 Maich''i!i43. 2190. Do you approve of penitentiaries as a good plan for the treatment of juvenile de- linquents ? — I was an advocate for houses of rcfiige some time ago ; but within the last few years I have altered my opinion somewhat in regard to them. 1 would like to sec some- thing done for youth ; but the state of the country has been such as to render it a difficult matter to get the children provided for after being in a house of refuge. At Parkhurst, Isle of Wight, tiiere is a farm where the prisoners are sent to and educated. There they are not treated as close prisoners. A certain portion of them, about 100, have been recently sent abroad by government, and a pardon granted them on their being left in their new station. I now look forwsird to some movement of this kind ; for in this house of refitge, as Mr Bremner of Glasgow tells me, that though a lad is taught to make shoes in two years, he is not a complete shoemaker ; and the directors find a difficulty in getting him ofi' their hands e\'en then. Every kind of work is so over-done that there is a difficulty in getting employ- ment for the delinquents in such an establishment ; and a difficulty in getting the youth employed when they quit it. 2191. But, without reference to the present distress, do you think that in the country there is a want of workhouses ? — If you do not make too many of them near together, and consi- dering that the districts contain towns of considerable population, I thuik there would be no difficulty in having a workhouse somewhere tolerably witliin reach of every district. In this way you woiUd get beggars done away with ; and those old and disabled paupers, and orphans, who had nobody to take care of them, woidd be provided for. Without such an esta- blishment you cannot get begging suppressed, which is an evil I'csulting from pauperism. Oi-phan children ought to be attended to ; and this might be done at no great expense, — nothing would fi'ighten me in regard to this at aU. 2192. Do you think intemperance leads to much pauperism and destitution ? — Very much. In regard to the adidt paupers in St Cuthbert's workhouse, I should say that the one-half of theiu woidd not have been there if they had been temperate. 1 know some of them as workmen who made good wages, and who woidd never have been there but for intem- perance. When old age came on them, never having saved a fartliing, and being unable to do anything for themselves, they became destitute. 2193. That is one of the reasons that makes you advocate workliouses ? — Yes, that is one reason. 2194. Is the number of public houses a great cause of intemperance and destitution? — I do not think that lessening the number of public houses woidd do much to reduce paujierism. Though you lessened them by the one-half it would just give the other half so much the more to do. 2195. Suppose they were to be made places of gi-eater respectabiUty ? — This would be of little avail, there are so many ways of evading the law. I know of no plan that would be more likely to do away with the evil than instruction and taking care of the young. If they would give them eleemosynary instruction, and take care of them, a great proportion of them would be saved. 219(5. You would think it necessary with a view to the completeness of such a system, to divide large parishes ? — Y'^ou may do that as best suits, placing workhouses where you think it convenient and proper. 2197. Woidd this greatly assist the plan you propose,— to subdivide, for instance, the West Church into small parishes ? — I do not think it, on the principle that you pay persons to do the work. In this way there would be economy in having it undivided. It would be economical to have one governor and one workhouse. 2198. How many inspectors would you have for the West Church parish? — I have not thought of that. You might make use of the rate-payers to some extent, giving the assist- ance of some paid agents, not leaving the work altogether to paid agents. The scheme of placing the labour in kirk-sessions would not long go on in large i)arishcs without paid agents. Some think that if they had one agent to assist the managers, it would be of great advantage. 2199. You mentioned that within the last few years you have altered your opinion some- what in regard to houses of refuge, and that in Glasgow they have some difficulty in getting quit of their inmates. Does that difficulty, do you suppose, arise from the pressure of the times, or is it that there is a prejudice a'gainst receiving apprentices from such a place as the house of refiige ? — I woidd say it may partly arise from that cause ; but want of sufficient employment is the greater cause of the two. But I know that there is a prejudice against receiving apprentices from such a place. They would not be ])rcferrcd. In regard to chil- dren who have mothers, I woidd in all cases allow them to remain \\ith their mothers, pro- vided they were good women ; but if not, I woidd be for sending the children away from them at once. Then, in regard to children who had lost both parents, what is to be done with them, if there is to be no workhouse, unless they have some relations able and willing to take care of them. If they should have poor relations, and if decent people, I think that the plan of sending them with a small allowance to them, to be taken care of would be good. 2200. In every case you would prefer the child to be educated in the family where it is ])ossible ? — I would always prefer it where they could be placed imder good moral care. 2201. Have you had any experience in regard to the after life of parties educated in charity workhouses ? — I have had no particular experience. The practice in St Cuthbert's was to send the governor once a year to see the boys, and inquire about them ; and the matron keeps a look out after her girls. The governor once a year went round tiie villages where the boys might be, and visited them — some of them weavers, some nailers, some car- POOR LAW INQUIRY COIM^HSSION FOR SCOTLAND, 127 penters, shoemakers, and so on, and conversed with them and tlieir masters. On the boys Exauiinations. finishmg their apprenticeship, they return to the workhouse and receive a reward for good conduct. I have no hesitation in saying that the numbers we sent out who went decidedly ^^^i' ^igham. wrong, were as small as would occm* in any portion ot society. 2202. In St Cuthbert's is there a complete separation of the inmates ? — No. If we had a more complete separation, the working would be more beneficial. We have a good teacher. 2203.' Have you anything to suggest yourself? — Nothing. I think I was clearly under- stood in stating that tlie poor should have an appeal to tlie sheriff' without cost ? 2204. Perfectly. Would you apjirove of an appeal fi-om the sheriffs ? — No appeal from the sheriffs. 2205. Would there be no risk of a diversity of practice in different counties ? — There micht be some diversity of practice ; but nevertheless I would trust aU to the sheriffs. I do not see where it could be placed better. I beg to hand in the prison report, by the inspec- tor of prisons for Scotland. Tliere are here one or two cases which will show you, in regard to the able-bodied, what distress may occasion. At Glasgow, WiUiam Bremner, the humane governor of the penitentiary, no doubt with the consent of the commissioners for jails, thought proper to take some voluntary prisoners and keep them after their term of imprisonment was out, if they felt they had no where to go. At one time there were fifty of this description ; and they were thankful to submit to all thfe regulations. It was recommended by the general prison board that this should be discontinued. The cases I am going to refer to ai-e cases of voluntary prisoners ; and the following to which I beg to direct your attention, are a few cases selected from a larger number. I may first, however, state a case in Edinburgh, very interesting to me, from my fi-iend, Duncan M'Laren, having particularly examined the case of a woman and her family. He sent for the woman and took down her story, which he showed to me. She had six children, all yomig. She had been deserted by her husband ; and was obliged to apply for parish aid — she received 2s. 6d. per week. Her own statement was that she had to go out to wash and work to keej) the children alive, and the children went out to beg, and from begging they became thieves, and the girls, as they grew up, ^^•ent upon the town. The mother attributed the wliole of the evU to want of care. There was nobody to take care of them, she being obliged to go out and work for them ; and she ascribed their ruin to tliat cause. In order to see if there was any discrepancy between her account and that which her daughters might give, two of whom were In prison, one of them was examined, and she corroborated entirely what the mother said as to the situation of the family. In a case of this kind, I have no doubt if the children had been cared for, tliey never would have been in prison. Tliese two " are under sentence of transportation, and two others in prison, to all appearance, training up for the same end." The depravity of human nature is such, that we cannot take all tluit these poor creatures say to be true ; but it is clear if these children had been cared for, and had got some adequate assistance, the probability is that they would have been saved from the ruin that came upon them. The following Is an account of a little girl in the Edinburgh prison : — " S B , a girl 12 years old, was described by the matron as ' a most hopefid little girl, remarkably truthful, never hesitating to tell the exact truth of herself when she has committed a fault, which is the most surjmslng from the poor child's wretched education.' The child's father was In prison for theft at the time his daughter gave the following evi- dence, though she did not know It : — ' I used to go about with father to ask for a piece or bawbee. Father has large holes In his leg with balls In them. I do not know whether he is a soldier. I ran away from him because he beat me. My mother died when I was a wee bairn. She Is the only person I can remember who ever told me what was right. I could not read at all when I came Into prison : but I could say the prayer mother taught me be- fore she died. I have no other relation than my father that I know of, but one sister. I do not know where she is ; I suppose she must be going wrong, because we never had anybody to care for us, and to teach us to do right. I was once In the house of refiige two months ; I learnt my letters there. My father came and took me away. I have learned to hem and sew here. I like working, and I like to learn to read.' " The following is from the report on the prison of Glasgow : — " M S , a young girl. ' 1 have no friends ; my parents died about three years ago. I was working in the mills at their death. I was six years at one mill, till It was burnt down. I had earned six shillings a week. After my parents' death, I lodged with a friend, and paid one shilling a week for my lodging. After I lost my work, by the mill being biunt down, I left the decent woman's lodging. I could find no work anywhere ; I was idle six months. I suffered from hunger many and many a time during that idle six months. I did not think to try any of the kirk people (meaning the administrators of the pooi-'s fund), because I never heard of a factory girl getting anything. 1 never stole till this Idle time. The money got by the theft went to buy drink ; those wlio shared it with me had often been good-natured to me. When I was out of work, I would have been will- ing to go to any hard-working, decent place, If I could have got bread. I Intend to stay as a voluntary prisoner, If Mr Bremner -wlil let me, tiU times are better.' " " E F , a girl of 16 or 17, committed, for a short term of Imprisonment, for theft, and now remaining as a voluntary prisoner : — ' My father died when I was an infant. My mother is a decent woman, and so are my friends ; but my mother used to lick me so sair that I could not stand It. I gaed to service of my own accord at ten years of age. I was always happy with my mother till she was so severe. I was happy in service with a farmer herding the kye ; but my mother said I should not be that all my life, and she took me away and placed me in service in Paisley, where I got bad friends. I have been in and out of service both at Paisley and Glasgow. I have been in great want between the services. I 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Examinstiuns. Mr .T. Wighain. 13 Mnich 1843. have been in prison three times. I have been a free prisoner these three months, and I'll try to do Avell yet. The governor is very kind to me, and I never think to go.' " I shall not fatigue you by reading more of these cases ; but shall leave the report with you, that you may examine for yourselves. My wish is to show you that I do not sec how we are to get on without giving relief, in certain cases, to able-bodied people. It is weU known that population, at an early period, was small. There was plenty of employment until re- cently. Women, as well as men, coidd make their bread in a variety of ways ; but such is the increase of popidation, and the great depression in trade, that we must extend a different kind of care to the destitute ; and if the country does not rally again, they must be got out of the country, and sent where there is room for them. Rer. ])r Brown. Rev. Dr Brown, Examined : — 2206. You are minister of a dissenting congregation in the city ? — Yes. 2207. In what part of the town ? — Broughton Place. 2208. Are you acquainted with the situation of the pooi'er classes in your congregation? — I am acquainted vfith the circumstances of all the members of my congregation. Com- paratively few of my people belong to the poorest classes, — comparatively few paupers. 2209. It is only paupers of yoiu- o^vn congregation that you know of? — Only, except such as occasionally come in my way. I have no regular means of knowing much of them. 2210. How many belong to your congregation ? — I could not state the number with cer- tainty ; I only know the sum we expend upon them, which is from 81. to 9Z. monthly — say about 100^. a year. We are in the habit of laying out 251. in clothing, to enable them to attend church, and render them comfortable at home. 2211. Do you visit them in their dwellings ? — Yes. 2212. In Avhat situation do you find them — very destitute ? — I cannot say I have seen a great deal of excessive distress. We make a point of preventing that whenever we discover it. There are two instances, if I recollect rightly, in which lately extreme distress was found out, which the modesty of the individuals had prevented them from making known. 2213. Do any of those persons who are relieved from your funds, receive allowances from the City or West Church chaiity workhouse ? — We have an individual in the workhouse connected with the Canongate. There may be an individual or two who receive from the general poor fund. We count our poor entitled to relief from the poor funds ; and we think it right to apply. We find a difficulty in getting relief on some occasions ; and the relief is reduced in consequence of its being kno'wn that we, to a certain extent, relieve our poor. 2214. Your place of worship is within the West Church parish? — Yes. 2215. How much do you give to an individual, — what is the highest allowance? — I have a note of it made out. I find it stated that the rate of allowance ranges from 2s. to 8s. monthly, the average being about 6s. 2216. That depends on the members, and the state of distress in the families? — Of course. 2217. Are the people who receive the allowance generally incapable of working — or what portion of them? — I can scarcely answer that question. In some cases they are entirely incapable ; in other cases, capable in some respects, as in the case of widows washing, and doing work of that kind. We find it necessary to give them some supjiort. 2218. Has the number of people whom you relieve been increasing of late years, or keep- ing stationary ? — It has increased lately — not, however, materially ; but the tendency is to increase. 2219. You said they had a difficidty in getting relief from the charity workhouse — to what do you attribute that ? — It is difficult for me to say to what. We find there is a back- wardness in giving relief. 2220. From the knowledge of their receiving relief from you, may not that be one cause of the backwardness ? — Yes ; and I believe that the relief given to every individual in such circumstances is less than it woidd otherwise be. 2221. Have you reason to believe that the fact of their not belonging to the Established church is the consequence of the backwardness in obtaining relief? — I cannot give clear evidence as to that, although there are circumstances that make me think that it is likely to be BO. 2222. Your observations in regard to these cases apply to the Canongate workhouse ? -I merely stated that a person belonging to my congregation was in the workhouse there. 2223. But in regard to the cases you speak of, where there was an unwillingness to give relief in consequence of their receiving relief from you, does that apply to the Canongate or town workliouse ? — I think it applies generally, according to my experience. 2224. WTiat are the circumstances that lead you to this conclusion that produced the general impression on your mind ? — Appfication had been made in a number of instances, and relief was not got to the extent which we supposed it should have been, and which we apprehend other persons similarly circumstanced were in the habit of getting. 2225. When you say similarly circumstanced, do you mean that these persons get relief also from such fund as yours ? — I cannot say with regard to that. Our fund is not a fund to which they have any legal claim. 2226. You meant persons probably having the same legal claim? — Yes, and in similar destitution. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 129 2227. Have you ever, yoiirself, investigated tlie cases so as to compare those belonging to the Established church with those that belong to your own ? — No. 2228. Was it to the West Church parish you applied ? — I could not speak to any parti- cular parish more than another. I merely mention the general impression made on my mind. I am quite sure of the general fact. Exntninstions. RcY. Dr Brown. 13 March 1843. K Mr Campbell, W.S., Examined :— 2229. You have been manager of the city charity workhouse for a considerable time ? — For at least fifteen years, until four or five months ago. 2230. What particular department did you turn your attention to ? — To almost all the departments, from first to last ; and for the last six or seven years, to the finance depart- ment more than others. 2231. Did you act on the committee on the admission of claims for three or four years — I believe the management subdivided into quorums for that purpose ? — Yes, and for various other purposes. I have a book of regulations, which was prepared under my directions. I am, accordingly, versant with it more than others, though I may have forgot a good deal of it. But these regulations will speak for themselves. 2232. How many persons attend at the admission of claims ? — Sometunes two or three, sometimes I have been alone, but seldom less than two. 2233. There is only one inspector, I believe ? — Only one. 2234. Did you find that he was able to overtake the duty ? — I think the present inspector is an individual who has done it very much to the satisfaction of the managers ; at the same time, it is a laborious business. 2235. Do you think it can be done ? — I think it may be done ; but there may be occa- sional delaj's in reporting cases. I think the present inspector is capable of doing the duty, provided a certain time is allowed him ; but I think one or more in addition woiUd be a de- cided improvement. 2236. Do you think there is any ground of complaint on accoimt of delays? — I have heard complaints made of delay in regard to paupers who had brought forward their claims. I had my attention called to this, and had some discussion in regard to it, to the effect that there should be power vested in the treasurer to give immediate aid in extreme cases, whUe the investigation was going on. I had a regulation made to that effect. 2237. Do these temporary aids extend to taking a person into the charity workhouse ? — Oh, no ; temporary aids do not. They are only taken into the workhouse after they are admitted to be paupers belonging to tlie parish. They are not taken in pending the inves- tigation, so far as I know ; but before being taken in many get temporary aid. 2238. Do you think there is any ground for partiality on account of difference of religion ? — I never saw anything of the kind, and do not believe such ever existed. 2239. Did you ever see any difficulty arise out of a difference of nation? — We have cer- tainly a feeling that it is necessary to investigate very particularly the cases of Irishmen, because, in regard to them, we found we were often deceived. 2240. You do not think there was more difficulty in supplying Roman Catholics than Presbyterians ? — I never saw that in the course of my practice. I would have thought it a very wrong principle if they were actually paupers. 2241. Do you think the cases of all dissenters are taken up as readily as those of the Established chiu-ch ? — So far as I have observed, I never saw any distinction, except we discovered that they had an allowance from the bodies to which they belonged. In that case, we took into account the allowance they actually had fi:om such soui'ces, and gave them less or more accordingly. 2242. Were ever written complaints given in by Roman Catholic priests, or members of dissenting congregations ? — I never saw any ; in my time there were none. The only time we had a collision with the Roman Catholic clergy was when they wished publicly to per- form religious services within the house. This we did not allow to be done publicly, but permitted such to be perfonned in private rooms. 2243. Were the children of Roman Catholic parents obliged to attend the services of the Established church ? — We maintain the principle, that all our children should be kept to- gether, and go to church together ; but I do not think that, if a particular application were made by the Roman Catholic clergy, for the children belonging to them to be allowed to go to their place of worship, that it would be refused. I understand the committee made some regulations — a bye law — that they might be allowed to go out at certain times. So far as I observed, I do not think there was any specific bar to their going to their own places of worship under proper protection. 2244. Suppose a Roman Catholic child in the workhouse, would that child be obliged to attend worship in the Established chm-ch ? — I think there is no provision by which these children are to go to separate places of worship, and no provision for teaeliing them but under our own teacher. 2245. All the children are taught upon one principle ? — Yes ; but in regard to public worship, I am not aware of there being any application made to prevent them from going to our place of worship, either by their parents or guardians. 2246. Do you think the allowances granted, or which the managers are allowed to grant, are sufficient for the support of the destitute ? — My general opinion is, that they are not. t Mr Campbell. L 130 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr ('aiiipl)oll. n March lti43. think they have been pinched a good deal. I would have been inclined to have given them more, but we were obliged to cut our coat according to our cloth. I have always urged applications for additionsd assessments, which were generally made to the town-council, but never were successful. I always urged the necessity of having more on all occasions, when I had anything to say in the matter. 2247. Is there sufficient house accommodation ? — No. 2248. Woidd it be desirable to enlarge the workhouse ? — It would be desirable. The opinion I originally fonned on that I have had no reason to change. If we had more room even for a classification of our paupers, it woidd be a very great benefit, indeed. 2249. What has prevented you from giving such an allowance as you woidd like ? Is it the inadequacy of the assessment ? — -Yes. Repeated applications have been made for addi- tional assessment for the greatest part of the last century. We have applied repeatedly to the town-council, but have always been refiised. 2250. Have you been put to much expense by cases of disputed settlement ? — ^No ; I have been endeavouring to simplify the mode of discussion between the different parishes. I pre- pared a minute for that purpose in regard to certain regidations on that matter. I can show you the regulations. [A copy of them to be sent in.] It is a minute of regulations in regard to disputed cases between the charity workhouse and other parishes. 2251. Has it been agi-eed to ? — ^Yes. So far as the parish of St Cuthbert's is concerned, this embraces the greatest proportion of such disputed cases. 2252. Could you send us a list of all the disputed cases between you and the other two paa-ishcs ? — I shall endeavom- to prociu-e a list of them. I have not one myself; but I think I can procure one fi-om the treasurer. 2253. Could you send us a copy of one of the prepared cases? — Yes, of the cases pre- pared by myself ; but they are still to be revised by the parties. 2254. What has been your general practice in regard to parties who have no settlement in your parish ? — If we find them requiring aid m'C give it, till the cases are inquired into. I always declared that it was impossible to resist that principle. 2255. W^as it admitted ? — I find it has been acted on. 2256. Do you remember a notice which was posted last year, that no one need apply for temporary aid without a residence of three years ? — I saw it ; it was posted without my knowledge. 2257. You knew that there was such a notice ? — Yes, by seeing it after being put up ; and I knew a good many applicants who had no legal claim whatever ; and I found a good deal of difficulty in getting them temporary relief. 2258. Suppose you found a case of destitution in the parish, would you give relief there? — It ought to be done. In cases of extreme sickness we refer them to the Destitute Sick Society ; but we do not refuse them altogether. 2259. Do you recollect of any case where the officers of the house of refuge applied to you personally for relief, permanent or temporary, for a person found destitute within your parish ? — When I sat, the house of refuge was not in existence ; but I believe it has applied. To a party so circumstanced, if found within the royalty, our managers ar'e bound to give relief, more or less ; but disputes have arisen from there being a doubt as to the parish in which the person was found in a state of destitution. Tuesday, \4dh March 1843. MEMBERS rEESENT. Henry Home Dnunmond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Cragie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq. Rev. Dr Patrick Macfarlan, and Rev. James Robertson. HENRY HOME DRUMMOND, ESQ., M.P., IN THE CHAIR. Dr Peacock. 14 March 1843. Dr Peacock, resident Superintendent of the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary, Examined : — 2260. You are resident superintendent of the Royal Infirmary ? — Yes. 2261. IIow long have you been so ? — About eighteen months. 2262. Are patients of all classes reqiuring the use of the charity admitted without restric- tion ? — Cases of all kinds are admitted. 2263. There is no restriction with regard to the places of bii-th of the parties? — None whatsoever, provided the ease is fit for admission. 2264. There is no distinction with regard to those for whom the parish of Edinburgh is liable as paupers ? — Not any whatsoever. 2265. Is it the rule of the charity that those afflicted with incurable disease shall be detained in the hosjjital or not ?— Of course the object of the charity is to afford relief to those who arc diseased ; and the medical men are anxious, as are also the managers, that when patients can receive no further benefit from the treatment, they should be tlischarged. There is no express rule, that is the understanding. POOR LAW mQUIRY COMlSnSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 131 2266. Is that understanding strictly acted upon ? — "We are anxious to act upon it aa fully as we can ; but the removal of patients is frequently attended with difficulty. 2267. Owing to Avhat ? — There is a difficulty frequently in getting parishes to remove patients when they have got into such a state that medical assistance can be of no further avaiL 2268. In order to avoid the expense of maintaining them?— I presume so. 2269. Does that apply to the parishes of Edinburgh as well as others ? — I don't know that it applies to the city parishes ; but there is sometimes a difficulty with regard to other parishes. The remark is more applicable to country parishes. 2270. Does it apply more to the West Kirk parish ? — We have several times had diffi- culty with the West Kirk parish. 2271. More than with the city ? — I scarcely recollect a case of a patient connected with the city parish who was not removed when required. 2272. Is it necessarj" that the patient should be recommended by a subscriber to the charity ? — There is a nde to that effect ; but it is not acted upon. We merely require that the person sending in a patient shall engage to remove the patient if called upon to do so. But the rule with regard to recommending is not in the slightest degree acted on, — all cases, whether recommended or not, are taken in. 2273. Then the benefit of the charity is for aU who arc fit for reception in a medical point of view ? — Yes. 2274. — Has the hospital been full of late ? — We have refiiscd a considerable number for want of room lately, but that is partly owing to some new arrangements with regard to the fever patients, in consequence of which the accommodation has been to some extent dimi- nished. The refusals have amounted to thirty weeldy for the last month or six weeks. 2275. Then, if the funds would admit of it, there would be more patients to receive? • — If the accommodation was much greater, there would be patients to fill the institution. 2276. If you were to increase the accommodation you would require additional funds ? — The funds arc not sufficient for the support of the institution at present. 2277. Then it would require additional accommodation? — Yes, it would. 2278. You don't happen to have a copy of the printed reports of the infiiinary ? — Yes ; I have brought a copy of both reports. [The Managers' Report for the year 1843, with the Medical Appendix M'as then put in.] 2279. Are persons of all classes in life admitted into the infirmary? Are the middling classes admitted ? — There may be some few of the better class of the working population, who may be received to undergo operation ; but as a general remark, it is only the poor who apply. 2280. Are the parties who apply persons in receipt of parochial relief? — We enter in the statistical journal what are the means of support possessed by patients. From this report it appears that there are parties admitted who are in the receipt of parish relief, and a few cases are also received from the city and West Church workhouses from time to time. 2281. Do any country parishes subscribe to the infirmary? — I am not aware whether any subscribe, but collections are made at the church doors in some parishes, but in a very small number of parishes as compared with those who I'cceive relief from the infirmary, and to a very small amount as compared with the amount of benefit they receive. From Leith, last year, there were 233 patients ; and from the statistical report 146 were cases of fever, and 12^. was all the contribution during the year. In the report there is a list of the parishes from which the patients come, and if foreigners, their country is stated ; and there is also a list of the parishes which send contributions. 2282. Is the number of parishes which subscribe in proportion to the number of individuals relieved ? — Not at all. Edinburgh, it will be seen, on referring to the published report of expenditm-e, pays nine-tenths of the expense, but derives only two-thirds of the advan- tage, the other portion consisting of patients from the country, and from Ireland and England. 2283. There are many individuals among the subscribers who don't reside in Edinburgh ? — It is not a matter which comes directly under my cognizance ; perhaps I might explain, that in the remark I made, I referred to the portion of the funds of the institution raised by subscription, or by collections at the church doors, which are not above one-fom-th of the whole amount. 2284. Do you find any disinclination in the better part of the operatives to go into the infirmary ? — That I cannot speak to, as I have not any connexion with them, except as patients in the infirmary. I should scai'cely think they would have such disinclination. 2285. Is there a fever hospital distinct from the infinnary ? — There is a fever hospital distinct, but it is not used as such. The fever patients are in the wards of the hospital, with the other patients. 2286. In separate wards ? — They are partly sepamte, and partly mixed. 2287. Not in cases of infectious fever? — A plan has been tried for the last few months of distributing some of the fever patients among those with other diseases. In each general ward, a certain proportion of fever patients is distributed. It has been found in some of the London hospitals, in which this plan was adopted, that the contagious property of fever was lessened in that way. The disease did not spread to the attendants or visitors of the sick to the same extent as when the fever patients were confined specially to the fever wards, while it was found that the other patients very rarely took the disease. 2288. What has been the result of that experiment ?— At first we had several cases of fever among the other patients. We had, in all, ten cases in two months ; but when the experiment was first tried, proper precautions had not been taken. For the last six weeks Kxaniinatiuns. Dr Peacock. 14 March 1843. l)r Pe»cock. M Miu-.-h IQ43. 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examin&tions. we have had no ca.'^es occurring in the wards, — and I am inclined to believe that it will be found to answer, if care be taken to enforce the regulations. 2289. What are the precautions ? — Before the patients are adniitted into the wards, they are well washed in the bath ; their clothes are taken from them, and ventilated and fiunigated before they get them again, on their convalescence. Instead of having two beds, as before, betwixt each two window, there is only one, and thus the patients are widely separated : particular care is taken that the linen about the fever patients should not be used for the others ; and gi-eater regard is paid to cleanliness and ventilation than formerly. 2290. Have you any experience in visiting the poor in their own private houses ? — I am not generally in the practice of visitinj^ them in their own houses. AVhe'o doubt has existed about the fitness of admitting a case, I have occasional! v done so, 2291. Would you think it an advantage to have district surgeons, as in Glasgow? Would that tend to prevent fever from spreading by contagion ? — I think the earlier the patients come imder treatment, the more chance of recovery ; whether in the exer'cise of his discretion, the medical man thinks they should be removed or not, it is better they should come under treatment as soon as possible. 2292. Would that diminish the number of cases by taking them at an earlier stage ? — We have fair reasons for thinking that it would do so ; for I observe, that when we receive one fever patient from any house after a certain interval, we have generally a succession of cases from the same place. If the first patient were removed at an earlier period, the occuiTcnce of other cases afterwards might possibly be prevented. 2293. Then you approve in that case of the establishment of district surgeons ? — I think it would be a beneficial measure. During the time I have been in the infirmary, I have seen various cases brought into the infinnary in a dying condition. The patients having remained at their houses in a state of want for several days, without attendance, and from the results of the examination there can exist little doubt that, if they had been attended to at an earlier period, the fatal result might have been prevented. I allude more particularly to cases of acute inflammation of tlie lungs, of which I recollect three or four instances. 2294. Were any of those parties in the receipt of parochial relief? — They were in desti- tute circumstances ; they were without any assistance whatsoever for several days. 2295. Inflammation in the lungs do you say — -that is a rapid disease ? — It is necessaiy that the patients should come mider treatment at an early stage, if any good is to be done. I may mention also, that there exists a practice in out-parishes of sending cases to the mfirmary which are improper for admission. Cases of casual pauperism are passed from parish to parish and brought to the infirmary ; there they are frequently left ; when we once receive them, it is extremely difficult to get them away. In other instances, I have known patients falling ill in distant parishes brought to the infinnary when in a most imfit state for removal. I recollect, some months ago, a poor woman was removed from a i)arish twenty miles ofi^, in an open cart. She was labouring under an advanced stage of fever, and when admitted into the infirmary, was in a state of collapse. She died in three hours. The fatal result seemed to have been owing to her removal, and to the exposure she was subjected to in an advanced stage of fever in an open cart ; and I have no doubt that such was the fact. 2296. To what parish did she belong? — I don't know the parish. 2297. At what time of the year was she removed ? — In August, so far as my memory serves. I took a note of the case at the time it occurred. 2298. Have you known cases of that kind where persons have gone from infirmary to infirmary, and been supported for some time ? — Yes, I have kno\vn such cases occur. I was for three or four years in an hospital in England. We take cases here which would not be taken in there. The class of cases I speak of would be sent to the workhouse — ])ersons not able to work from debility, chronic ulcers on their legs or other diseases, which incapacitate them from work, but denve very little advantage from medical treatment — such cases would be rejected in England. 2299. Do you require a certificate from a medical man ? — There is a rule on the subject, but it is never enforced. 2.300. Do the managers exercise any control ? — The admission of patients rests with the medical men. 2301. Then they have a discretion ? — The patients are appointed to come to the hospital, and the medical man admits such as he thinks proper. 2302. You stated that a good many cases had been rejected for the last six weeks, and I understood you to signify that they required medical treatment ? — Slighter cases were refused, but many of those slighter cases would have been taken in if there had been room. 2303. Have you foiTned an idea as to what extent of enlargement woidd be necessary to enable the institution to meet the wants of Edinburgh and the adjoining i)art of the country, judging from the applications you have received and been obliged to reject ? — I have been keeping a record of the description rcfen-ed to only for six weeks or two months, from a wish to explain the very high mortality which appears from the statistics of the Edinburgh Infirmary, and which exceeds that of any other institution of the same kind. My impres- sion was, that this mortality arose from the large proportion of severe cases, the slighter cases being refused. The statement to which 1 refer has been kept only for a limited period, so that I cannot state the number of refusals prior to that time. 2304. With reference to the cases which you say would in England be treated in the workhouse, do you suppose the managers here woiild not give relief in the workhouse in such cases ? — I don't know ; that is a question I could not answer, not being familiar with the workhouse system. 2305. You never had occasion to recommend these parties to go and ajiply for relief? — POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 133 No ; I think they woijld generally bq sent to the house of refuge j application is generally made to the house of reftige. 2300. Do you think the accommodation of the infirmary would be sufficient fpr Edin- burgh and the immediate neighbourhood, if the country parishes did not send their patients ? — I should think it would be enough. I stated that Edinburgh contributed two-thirds of the patients ; now, if you deduct the other third, there wpqld certainly be s^ccommodatioij enough, Examinations. Pr Pfacpc)c. 14 Marjch iit43. Dr Handy side, Examined :- 2307. You are the secretary of the association for obtaining an official inquiry into pau- perism in Scotland ? — I am. 2308. Is that your signature to that paper?— It Is. [The paper here referred to was a memorial addressed to Sir R. Peel, by the Edinburgh Association for obtaining an official inquiry into the poor laws in Scotland.} 2309. I find it stated in this paper, that in consequence of the inadequacy of parochial relief, great exertions have been made by charities, founded by voluntary contributions of different descriptions, such as the Royal Infirmary, the House of Refuge, the Destitute Sick Society : — Is that consistent with your knowledge ? — Entirely so. 2310. Have you any means of knowing whether without the assistance of those private charities the poor would be sufficiently provided for ? — Not adequately provided for. 2311. Tlie allowance of each individual is not sufficient? — Not sufficient. 2312. Are there any who get no assistance at aU though they require it ? — Many, very many. 2313. Does it appear that the destitution of the poor is increasing of late years ? — Of late years — materially. 2314. Are you well acquainted with the royal infirmaiy? — ^I am, being an acting surgeon in that institution. 231.5. You state there are many cases, which in England would be relieved either by out- door relief or in the workhouse, which are dependant on the infirmary on account of the benefit of medical attendance ? — There are. 2316. What particular class of cases? — -Those who can obtain no relief in those quarters where they say they have a claim to relief, — ^such as (if I am allowed to explain myself,) many poor persons in Edinburgh, who state that they have a claim on the charities — the legal charities — of Edinburgh, the West Church, the City, or the Canongate, but who cannot get their claim presented in such a form that relief follows. Others, again, — perhaps the majority, — are persons from a distance, — from the country parishes of Scotland, from Ireland, or fi-om England, who are unable, after leaving the infirmary, to maintain life. They being then in weak health, and we being necessitated to dismiss them, not being able to maintain them during the whole period of their convalescence, many of them being dismissed in con- sequence of the demand for the admission of more urgent cases, have no place to go to except the house of refuge, which is perfectly crowded. Wo are constrained to refuse other cases, in many instances, so as to retain those till the latest period possible. Our object is, to prevent the system from returning to its old state of disease, and to prevent them from starving. We communicate, in the meantime, with the house of i-efiige and with the quarters fi'om whence the poor are in the habit of coming. Many charitable people interest themselves in the cases ; and an endeavour is occasionally made to pi'ovide for them by communicating with their native parishes. But, for tlie most part, I regret to add, we fail in those attempts, and are obliged to dismiss the patients, referring them to the Benevolent and Strangers' Friend Society, who, perhaps, can afford to forward them to their parishes. But I can furnish cases in which, though we have forwarded people to their parishes, they have been returned upon us. 2317. Did you forward such cases without previously communicating ?-^-No ; not without previously communicating. There is only one case in which I did so directly, and in that instance I communicated through Mr Small, the treasurer of the Edinburgh charity work- house. The name Is .James Forbes, a poor man, somewhat deformed, and, besides that, sickly. I had known hun for five years. He was not a patient of the royal Infirmary, and therefore I cannot give him as one of the cases occiuring there. But he was under my care as an out-patient, because we had no accommodation for him. This man improved in health. I applied to the charity workliouse, because I and three other gentlemen had maintained him with the view of obtaining a claim for him on that workhouse. But the objec- tion was twofold ; first, that he had not an Independent residence here, as we supported him ; and, secondly, that he had earned an Industrial residence in Glasgow, and had an earlier settlement In his native parish. I communicated with Glasgow, where they declined to assist him, stating that he had a prior claim upon Campsle. I sent him through to Campsio, where he had been previously settled ; but the authorities, I was told, gave him a few shillings to send him back to Edinburgh. 2318. But had this individual not obtained a residence in Edinburgh? — He had not an industrial residence. He had obtained a settlement, but he had not paid his own house rent. We had paid It for him, and the reason assigned for rejecting his claim here was, that he had not earned an Industrial residence. AYe were assured, while we were supporting him for three years, that we were securing a claim for him. We might not have done so if we had not thought that we were securing such a claim, We thought he had a claim on the Edinburgh charity workhouse, ])r Handif eide. 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Examinations. 2319. Generally, when you have sent forward any of those patients, you do not commn- ~ ~ nicatc with the authorities of the parishes? — We do not. l/Mai'ch ituj 2320. May not the parishes think the patient has no settlement in their parish? — They may suppose so, till they examine their records ; but they have the register ot baptisms. If we find a patient labouring under imbecility of mind, for Instance, we communicate with the parishes. We have no person to take charge, and rarely stretch a point in communicating personally. 2321. You form yoiu- opinion very much on the statement of the individual? — Yes, that they have a claim on such and such a parish, except in the cases of James Forbes and others. 2322. May not the parishes suppose that they have counter evidence to submit, and may not they be justified in rejecting the claim ? — Oh, no doubt. At the same time, there are facts which are notorious — such as, that this Is a man who was bom in such a place. Forbes was with Sir James Stirling in Campsic. 2323. But would he not be able to establish his claim against that parish ? — It appears that persons always may go back to their own parishes. He had an independent residence for six years in Glasgow, where he took up a small spirit shop. Glasgow said, we must send him on to his place of birth. 2324. Did they state that to be the law of Scotland ? — They did not ; but I understand that the existing law of settlement has no foundation in statute, and is opposed to the statute law of 1579, whereby the parish is bound to support every indigent person in the parish where he was bom. 2325. That the jjarish in which he was bom is liable ? — Yes ; that is the ground which the Glasgow workhouse managers stated, if I have not incorrect information. 2326. In what parish is the infirmary locally situated? — In Mr Bennie's parish, within the city. 2327. Would not parties discharged from the infirmary, in a state of destitution, be en- titled from the first to relief from the city parish till their settlement was found out ? — It appears not, unless they can establish a claim, that they have already acquired a settlement, and they have resided in the parish till their settlement is discovered. We get httle assist- ance from the charity workhouse. There are so many applicants for admission to the charity workhouse, that they are supplied from without with greater rapidity than there is room to accommodate them. When vacancies occurs, they are received as inmates ; but in every case it must be shown that they belong to the city, and have earned an industrial residence. 2328. Could they give relief in the meantime, tiU they found whether the party had a settlement there or elsewhere ? — I rather think not, from the want of funds. The cases of the description I have mentioned are more than they can overtake. 2329. Are there any cases belonging to parishes in Edinburgh — parties whose settlement is in Edinbvirgh ? Axe there any such cases relieved in the infirmary here, which should be relieved in the workliouse ? — Certainly, such patients I have had under my care. 2330. What class of cases do you refer to ? — Cases of chronic disease generally — not fever cases. 2331. If the settlement of such parties were ascertained to be Edinburgh, would they not be admitted as objects of parochial relief? — Did the funds and accommodation permit, they would j)robably be admitted. 2332. And those cases which are not admitted on the permanent lists of parishes are generally not admitted, because their settlements are disputed ? — No ; we find many whose settlements are without doubt admitted, but who cannot be taken on, on account of the want of funds to supply them. The city charity workhouse has not means to supply such a number of ap]ilicaiits. I have frequently applications for certificates from parties who, from being heads of families, don't wish to go into the house, but to receive outdoor rehef. They are set aside, however, as I understand, by an oflfer being made to them to enter the work- house ; and, upon their dechning to do so, out-door relief is refused. 2333. Have you any statement of that kind in writing from the charity workhouse, that they acknowledge the parties to be objects of parochial relief, but that they don't grant any relief on account of the want of funds ? — Our association has none ; but I have seen minutes by Mr Small, giving such reasons whj^ applicants are not relieved. 2334. ]\Ir Small, the treasurer of the woi-kliouse, has given you reasons for not relieving parties ? — Yes. 2335. Do many cases of that kind occur? — I decline, for one, to sign certificates, because I am confident that the parties will not receive relief — thinking it better that they should attend the dispensary, and get relief from the Destitute Sick Society, tUl they are able to work. 233(). These are not cases of persons permanently disabled? — Not pennanently disabled; but persons who are taken into workhouses in England— those that are chronic cases, and who require relief till their convalescence is established. There are two classes — those who are in the infirmary, and those who attend the dispensaries. I can give instances of both ; one is that of a young woman, a servant, who was brought to me. She was in the infir- mary on account of a simple disease in the knee-joint, which, if she had been placed, after leaving the infirmary, in a workhouse, or with a friend, for some time, would have been peripanently cured. This poor creature was obliged to return to her place. I admonished her that a fortnight's more rest was required. In six weeks she came back on my hands : it had become a'complicated case. I resorted to a severe remedy, which again restored her to convalescence ; but it was found necessary to dismiss her. I said to her, " Don't go back to your place — try to live with some friend." She is now living with a friend in Jamaica Street. I dispense medicines to her, and try to get her re-admitted into the infirmary, till she is fully convalescent. Two months ago, she asked me to sign a paper for the Edinburgh POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 135 charity workhouse. I shall admit her to the infirmary as soon as possible, as she is not fit Examination*. to get back to service, and is not able to pay for her support. This is a person who appears to have a good claim upon the workliouse. She is a strong, able-bodied woman. 1 4 Mareh^ 1*843 2337. lias she obtained admittance ? — She asked only for outdoor relief. 2338. She may have obtained outdoor relief? — She may; but she has not yet received an answer. 2339. Can you state how many have been refused relief from the charity workhouse on account of the want of funds ? — I cannot. 2340. Do you know whether as many as ten have been refused ? — Perhaps many more. 2341. How many ? — I cannot state the number of cases. It is a general matter of noto- riety ; but I cannot allude to particular cases. Patients come into the waiting-room of the infirmary, and say they cannot obtain relief from the workhouse. I beg to refer to the printed documents of the association. 2342. Are you acquainted with the management of the lying-in-hospital ? — I am not. 2343. What you have stated there is from the information of others ? — Of others. 2344. You are connected with the dispensary ? — I have acted as medical officer in the royal dispensary for two years. 2345. To what classes of persons do you give relief in the dispensary ? — To persons suffer- ing from chronic disease princijially. 2346. To persons receiving parochial relief? — I don't behcA^e half the persons who apply have a fixed place of residence ; and those who have may, perhaps a few of them, be out- door recipients of relief from the charity workhouse. The dispensaries relieve many of those from the country passing through Edinburgh, who are vagrants, having no fixed place of abode, and subject to disease mostly chronic. 2347. Is the medical assistance given to such parties adequate ? — The medical attendance is fully adequate. The medical remedies cannot be done justice to from their not having fixed places of residence. Some have neither table nor chair, nor have they a bed to lie upon. 2348. What is the staff of medical attendance connected with the royal dispensary ? — Twelve medical officers besides students. 2349. Are any of these officers students ? — -None. AU are physicians or surgeons, and all are members of the royal colleges of physicians or surgeons, each having two students at most under him. 2350. It has been stated in evidence that in some of the dispensaries the medical attend- ants who visit the poor are students ? — The remark does not apply to either the royal dispensary, or the New Tovati dispensary, — both equally high in point of character. I don't think the remark would apply properly to any. These students are the deputies of the medical men. The cases if at all inti-icate are visited by the medical men every day ; if again they are cases which can be deputed, as cases are deputed by medical men to their apprentices, they are then deputed to students, but there is constant reference to the medi- cal man who is a regularly licensed physician or surgeon or both. Cases may be treated out and out by a student, no doubt of that ; but the medical officer has the superintendence, and it- is always understood that he has attended at least once each case that applies. 2351. Then, from general experience you believe the medical attendance even to out- patients is entirely sufficient ? — Entirely sufficient ; but the materials for the application of remedies are deficient. 2352. It has been suggested that it would be better if responsible medical officers were provided by the charity workhouse. Do you consider that that woidd be an improvement, or otherwise ? — I consider it would be an improvement if they would undertake attending those who need outdoor relief, for they are often neglected, because they dislike applying for gratuitous aid to the dispensary. Many of them are persons who have been in good circumstances, and they will not apply at a dispensary. 2353. Would they object if they received parochial relief? — Owing to the publicity that attends their frequent calls at a dispensary, and the trouble that is attendant on such appli- cations, they would stiU object often. 2354. If they object to receive aid from the dispensary, would they not object to receive aid from the workhouse ? — They object to apply to a dispensary for aid, but do not refuse that aid when carried to them. 2355. Then that class would not be bettered if a medical staff were provided? — On the contrary, the same class that applies for parochial aid would be benefited by attendance at their own houses. 2356. If the attendance given by the dispensaries were sufficient, why should you wish a responsible officer connected with the workhouse ? — The reason is that the niunber of appli- cations to the dispensaries is so great that the staff of twelve medical officers, with aU their capabilities and all their pupils, is inadequate to attend all the cases that apply. That may appear to be opposite to my former answer, that the dispensary is adequate to discharge the duties that they undertake to do. Say there are 100 eases which they have taken up ; they attend to these ; but there is another 100 which they are unable to overtake. Among the second 100 there may be some who would receive parochial aid. The amount of disease among the poor is such that all the pupils, wuth all the medical men of the dispensaries, .are insufficient to overtake it. 2357. But so far as regards the individuals visited, you don't think there is room for im- provement ? — No. The dispensary attendance is quite efficient, leaving out of view the comforts at home, which are quite insufficient. 2358. Do you find the patients in a state of destitution ? — So frequently, that the medical men and the students often find it necessary to draw their purses. Since I began with the 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Dr Handj-side. U March 1843. dispensary I see an increase of those who apply in destitute circumstances. They have ol'ten nothing to boU water in — nothing to put their feet in if ordered to bathe their feet — no bread or meal for poultices. It is veiy usual for the medical men and the students to pay out money for comforts required by patients. 2359. Tlicy don't provide diet ? — No ; but the medical men frequently contribute wine and soup. It is a customary thing for a medical man to have wine in his house for supplying poor patients ; and to have soup ready also, so that a patient may send for a bowl, which is given with bread. The students exliibit the same philanthropic spirit ; and they are neces- sitated to do so, otherwise the disease advances apace. 2360. In mimy cases would not nutritious diet or wine be almost essential to their treat- ment ? — Doubtless essential, and these might often avert the future stages of the disease, and effect a cure in time. 2361. And a medical officer, Avhen nutritious diet was ordered, would afford means and funds sufficient ? — Clearly so. 2362. Would not that be an advantage which the treatment of cases by a medical officer connected with the workhouse would procure ? — A decided advantage. On that point I may obsei've that destitution as I conceive is frequently the source of disease. 2363. Can you give me the name of the servant girl whose case you mentioned ? — .lessie Drummond ; she is jjerfcctly destitute, and resides with, and is supported by an old fellow patient, Mr Malliam, 15, Jamaica Street. 2364. Can you give the names of any other persons who have been refused ? — I don't mean to say that Jessie Drummond was refused. But she has not yet received an answer from the charity workhouse. 2365. Could you find the names from the list ? — Cases refused parochial relief here, though resident in Edinburgh longer than three years, are known to Mr Wright, 98, High Street ; Mr Ross, 135 Cowgate ; and Dr Alison refers to forty such cases in his Illustrations, p. 13. 2366. Do you tliink much disease arises from want of cleanliness ? — Not much disease from that compared with other causes that promote it. 2367. Have you observed that typhus fever has come at periodical intervals in the same man- ner as small-pox and other epidemic diseases ? — According to the pi-edisposition in the system it has. I suffered for four successive years from typhus fever ; and there was always predis- position. 2368. Does it retm-n at an interval of two or three years ? Do cases cease for a time and return again ? — It is an observation that every three or five years there is in this quarter a very aggravated form of typhus fever ; but I cannot verify that remark. Its retmn is con- nected with the stagnation of trade, poverty, &c. It is, indeed, never totally absent from the dwellings of the poor. 2369. You arc aware that it has attacked the families of people in the higher ranks of life, and in the best condition as to food and raiment, as well as the lower classes ? — It has un- doubtedly affected the higher classes, though in a far inferior degree to the lower orders. 2370. Then, would you consider destitution as the cause, or as an aggravation of the dis- ea.se ?— I would regard it as a powerful predisposing cause to the typhus fever in affecting the system ; the opposite being a powerful preventing cause to their being infected. 2371. Have you been led to observe the proportion in the higher and the lower classes who have fallen victims to typhus fever ?— I have. The result is that the lower classes suffer most ; and I can explain the reason. 2372. Can you state the proportion with any minuteness? — ^No, I cannot. My atten- tion has not been given to that so much as a piu-e physician's would naturally be. 2373. Do you consider that destitution is adequate of itself to generate fever? — Not of itself usually ; but it is believed that the febrile vims is sometimes generated spontaneously in indigent persons. 2374. Wlien you answered that question about the higher classes, do you mean the num- bers were absolutely less or only relatively ? — ^Absolutely less in the higher classes. 2375. Then you stated some time ago that you considered the allowance of the poor by no means sufficient. What would you consider a sufficient allowance, taking the age and the number of the children ? — I shall answer it with reference to the lowest state of destitution, so as to state what would maintain health. 2376. With reference to different degrees ? — Then proceeding from the lowest class, I would, with regard to a father and mother with four children under ten, at the working period of life, say from observation that 38. 6d. or 3s. a week might make them comfortable. 2377. When you said that many received nothing at all, did that apply to the number of poor persons who were imwiUing to come for relief from public fiinds, or to those who had applied and been refused ? — To those who had ajiplied and been refused. 2378. And only to eases of disease ? — You don't speak of those who have applied where there was no complaint ? — I understood those who applied had a legal claim, and did not get !i8«:stance. 2379. You said destitution is considered increasing ; to what do you attribute the in- crease ? — To the circumstance that there has been a decrease of employment among the lower orders— an increase of vicious habits which induce poverty, — increased disease which prevents persons working for a livelihood when work is to be got ; and, therefore, having no source to which they may resort, while the head of the family is lying sick, his wife and family are left in the utmost destitution, 2380. To which of those causes would you ascribe the greatest degree of influence ? — I woidd decidedly state that of the three caxises, want of employment m general is the most productive of destitution. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 137 2381. Then your observation refers rather to the present depression in trade and manufactiu-es than to ordinaiy times ? — My observation applies especially to the present time. 2382. How long has the association of which you are secretary existed ? — Since April 1840. 2383. Then your observation does not extend back to ordinary times ? — ISIy reply applied principally to the present time. But my own experience extends to 1825, when 1 began to be connected vfith the dispensaries. My observations with regard to the causes of destitution at the present time, relate generally to the period since the association was established. But my whole experience derived from my attendance on the dispensaries, and from my other professional avocations, points to the same sources of destitution. 2384. Supposing a change in the present depressed state of trade and prosperity coming back, yoiu- observations would not apply to the same extent ?— Certainly not, so far as want of employment is a cause of that destitution which promotes disease. 2385. You mentioned that a great many cases from distant painshes in the coimtry had come under your observation. l)id you inquire whether those cases had been residing for a considerable while in Edinburgh ? — I cannot speak very specially, though I know generally that our association discovered cases where individuals had come from a distance, and been labourers for ten or fifteen years in Edinbm-gh ; till, unable to labour longer from old age or disease, they then became burdens on the people of Edinburgh ; and not the least assistance was given them. 238G. But you have not noted the precise time they lived in Edinburgh, prior to applying for relief ? — No. 2387. In the memorial it is stated that there are few manufactories in Edinburgh. Can you state the different public works in the Canongate or elsewhere in Edinburgh ? — I can scarcely mention the number. 2388. Are you aware that there is a shawl manufactory ? — Perfectly ; and a carpet manu- factory, and silk-mills, and gas-works. 2389. And your observation is more comparatively with Glasgow or Paisley? — The manufactures here are absolutely fewei'. This is not a manufacturing place ; but we conceivg that the increase of manufactures here would benefit the poor, by giving them employment. 2390. You said the burden of supporting charitable institutions rests on a limited portion of the conununity. Has any comjilaint been made by that part of the community ? — They constantly complain that, fi-om its being known that they are benevolent individuals, they are taxed to a very inconvenient extent ; and it would be a very great advantage if all the citizens had a sum levied from them for the support of those charitable institutions. 2391. Has any attempt been made, on a large scale, to extend the sphere of benevolent operations in that way ? — There have been several ; and, in particular, a subdivision of the town into districts was made, to raise funds for the royal infirmary, as well also as for the unemployed operatives. That was twice done. But the collectors of the different charities that go from door to door find their visits, in many instances, unnecessary ; for they soon know the individuals who are in the habit of contributing. 239:^. But some positively refuse ? — Some are in the habit of i^osltlvely refusing. 2393. In the wealthier classes of life? — In the wealthier classes. I ha^-e beard the collectors etate so. I have been in the habit of employing men to collect, and have heard them state who the individuals are from whom they may expect to receive contributions. And we are in the practice of comparing notes in committees. We state where we are likely to get assistance ; that such and such streets contribute more than others ; and that, upon the whole, the humbler classes contribute best. Our general observation Is, that the lower the sphere of the individuals to whom application Is made, the greater Is the liberality displayed. 2394. Till you come to the lowest ? — In the lowest state half of what Is got may be given [ away to persons in the same condition. I have seen them disregard their own health, and the fear of contagion, and starve themselves to aid a suffering and sick neighbour. Not only will they do what they can for those in health, but to a still greater amount for those who are labouring under disease, and from whom there is no prospect of a return. 2395. You would not wish to put a stop to that benevolence among the poor? — Certainly not. 2396. Would not a large public provision hinder that efflux? — I scarcely think It woidd operate thus, or that the efflux of charitable feehng would be exhausted. It cannot now overtake one-tenth of the suffering that prevails. I can give three instances of persons starved to death in the course of the previous winter. The first was received into one of my wards In the infirmary ; another was in another ward In the Infirmary ; and the third died in his own lodging. 2397. Did you open ? — I opened one, and was present at the examination of the other two. One was my own patient, and, I have no doubt, died from starvation, I have not legal evidence, but I have quite satisfactory evidence of the fact. This was a girl of seven- teen. Her mother was a servant. This poor girl was found lying on one of the most de- praved closes In the town. She was taken compassion upon by two prostitutes, who seemed, physicaUy as well as morally, in the worst condition. When the girl was bi-ought in, she I^B was labom-Ing under inflammation of the lungs; her legs were In a state of extensive ulcerar Option; her body in a state of complete prostration and weakness. Due remedies were admi- nistered. Notwithstanding, the disease went on. It had been induced fi'om her lying openly in the cold. She died; and, with the exception of the rapid disease under which she laboiu-ed, there was no unhealthy appearance. Then there were a young man of twenty-five, I and a woman of nineteen. They were robust, healthy persons. I can get notes about these persons, though I cannot now state whether they were free from disease. But there are ■ Examinations. Dr Ilandysiide. U March 1B43. 138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxam illations, other caiscs of piuMen death from starvation. There is a fourth case which came under the Dr II ni s'de "otice of Mr Tait, High Street, He told me, that, two years ago, a man, the father of thiee )4 MarcU 1843. children, died of starvation. The body was brought to the police office, and there was nothing else to which death could be attributed. Phere are others I have heard of, but these are four cases on which 1 have had good information, 239iS, Don't you think if the parish were under sufficient parochial management, such C!i8es would not occur ? — I believe so, 231)1). If parishes were subdivided and put under eldere and deacons ? — I think that would not be a sufficient remedy. Till the law of settlement is altered, and an assessment on all the different paiishes of Scotland levied, individuals from the very remote and poor parishes, finding they cannot obtain work sometimes — and when they cannot get work they cannot get bread — will go to the great towns. The great mass of destitution in the great towns I ascribe to the great influx of such persons having no claim there, yet who beg about town, get into the infinnary, or the house of refuge, are relieved by the Destitute Sick Society or by the Strangers' Friend Society — persons having no claim come from Orknev or Inverness, or from Ireland or England ; whereas a Scotchman residing in England or Ireland is sent back to his native parish, when disabled or superannuated. On the other hand, an English-' man or an Irishman has a claim here aflter three years' residence, 2400. Have they come with a view to relief from the charitable institutions, or with a view to work ? — There are two classes — those who come to Edinburgh for work, some of whom are already j)ast the period for active service. Then there are vagrants who wander about the country, and many of them are diseased — suffering often from surgical disease of the most loathsome kind. They do not go back to the covuitry ; they betake themselves to begging, finding it succeed, and they are relieved by the charities here, 2401. Then what are the proportions of the two classes ? — I should think the latter more numerous. The larger proportion come just to beg. They may possibly search for employ- ment ; but not finding it, they beg and have recourse to the charities. 2402. And such vagrancy so prevails, that this is the larger class ?— I think the vagrants are a larger class than those who come to find work, and many of the latter class also, find- ing they cannot get M'ork, resort to begging, Edinburgh is not known as a commercial town ; therefore there are few opportunities of affording aid to people from a distance by means of work, except when a canal or railway or new roads are in progress, I rather think, therefore, that the vagrant system is jnirsued more in Edinburgh than the practice of coming thither from a view to being employed. 2403. Do the magistrates not interfere ? — To a certain extent they do ; and there was a society for the suppression of begging which went down some years ago. But Ave cannot put down begging. The begging papers are innumerable ; and people come in the morning and in the evening, when they know the individuals to whom they apply arc at home. There are beggars on the street ; but it is not so much on the street as by calling at houses that they pursue their avocation. There is a system by which men earn a livelihood — persons who give out that they are clerks for the destitute poor. These write petitions which prove to be a tissue of deception. I have proved them to be so myself. These clerks maintain themselves by writing out such false petitions. 2404. How would a legal assessment prevent that ?— In this way : — Such poor persons rarely belong to Edinburgh. The first class come often with their children from remote parts of the countiy. They may have been there employed ; but as they become unfit for labour, or don't get work, in the course of time they come to Edinburgh or Glasgow. They may have a wheclban-ow to sell herrings, or a cart and horse to sell earthenware or convey rub- bish. But they get poorer and weaker, till they are unfit to do anything ; and they cannot go back to their own place. If, when they become old, they were to receive, in the quarters where they once could earn a livelihood, assistance from their parish, they might still do a little useful work. There is the other class from those distant parts, who ai'e idle, and pursue begging as a more profitable calling than any other. If the outdoor system, as in England, were applied, and those parties employed on public w"orks, and their labour used by the country they might become usefiil members of society ; and such a change would do much to save expense, and check begging, 2405. What arrangement do you mean when you say that in England the country provides work for such classes ? — I mean the employment provided by the workhouses. These persons may thus contribute to their own support, 2406. You mentioned, some time ago, that Edinburgh is occasionally visited by tyjihus fever ; is it ever at any time extirpated in Edinburgh ? — I believe not, as I already said. 2407. Do you ascinbe the periodical visitation, in its extent and fonn, to the occurrence of seasons of destitution ?— To the combined occurrence of extreme destitution, want of clean- liness, defective clothing, foul air, dissijjated habits, fear of infection, and, I may add, the epidemic state of the atmosphere, which nurtures the virus. It is the virus which infects the system ; and there may be one or more of these predisposing causes just mentioned in operation in the individual. 2408. And you mentioned that the proportion of deaths in the higher and upper classes was materially less, in proportion to the number seized, than in the lower classes. Do you - attribute that to the predisposition in the poorer classes, or to the more perfect attendance , the upper classes receive during the prevalence of disease ?— Scarcely to either cause singly : first, with regard to predisposing circumstances, these are fewer in the upper than in the lower classes ; for although, in the former, you may have two of the causes 1 have mentioned, viz. anxiety of mind and dissipation of body, you have not destitution, or deficiency in clean- liness, defective clothing, or foul air, — causes which principally operate on the lower classes. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 139 The proportion of deaths is the greater, accordingly, in that order of society in which the Examination*. more numerous and active predisposing causes of fever co-operate. 240i). The ])oiiit I wish to bring out is, that these causes might predisjiose a greater num- u Vi^*"f 'islir her to be attaclced by the disease among the lower classes ; but then you stated, that not only was there a larger proportion aif'ected, but the mortality was pi-oportionally greater : now, is destitution the greater cause of the mortality ? — I go on to say, secondly, with respect to medical attendance — tlie larger mortality which occui's among the poor, under fever, is not owing to the medical attendance being insufficient ; but the medical attendant cannot get his directions complied with ; indeed the infirmary is tlie only place where persons of the lower ranks can fitly be treated. Again, when the poor are attacked, they don't recover in the same proportion its the better classes from their system being previously reduced by destitution and other predisposing causes, and thus when invaded by fever, the body has less power of i-eaction against tlie disease. The crisis of the fever is rarely surmounted by the poor person ; the crisis is gained by the rich. The convalescence of the wealthy can be a-^sisted by proj^er care and food ; but even after the crisis is gained in the poor, you have not wine or cordials, or other accessories. In consequence, they take ulcers in the legs, or other maladies, from sheer debility. 2410. Then you consider that difficulty in effecting cures owing to the previous destitu- tion ?— Yes ; and a greater proportion dies in consequence. Many jmrts of the country which are assessed, present a smaller amount of poverty than those which are not. There are not a few who live to beg ; but if all the parishes were jJaoed on an equality over the country, individuals, instead of infesting the towns when tlestitute, ^vould receive in their own parishes that aid which the gratuitous generosity of the large towns cannot overtake. 2411. Have you any statistioid tables showing that a greater number leave the unassessed than the assessed parishes ?— -I have none ; but such cases are referred to in the documents of the association. 2412. You wish to assess aU the parishes : are there any other points on which you have suggestions to make ?— And that licensed medical men should be appointed to look after those who receive outdoor relief. 2413. You would alter the law of settlement ? — That is a disputed point ; and I have not made up my mind completely whether the period ought to be thi-ee or seven years. I think there should be always a power of referrmg an individual to his native parish. 2414. He would have his choice of remaining to work? — That of course follows. But we should have power to send back beggars to their own parishes in England or Ireland. There is no reciprocity at present ; — there should be as nuich as possible reciprocity in tlie law ; — there sliould be uniformity as much as possible in the three kingdoms. 2415. Do you propose to grant relief to able-bodied i)ersons? — In seasons like the present, when the employment is so scanty, and some great crisis has arrived in the commercial districts. 2416. But not as a pennanent system ? — I am averse from granting direct relief to able- bodied men ; but I would grant work in connexion with the workhouse. It was found by Mr Watson of Aberdeen, that in the jail there it was quite possible to act on that principle. I would rather employ them in times of commercial distress, if em])loyment could be got. Generally I would be averse from giving to any one in good health what he did not himself earn. Much might be done to secure employment for such emergencies, and after continuing that system till they obtained regular employment, they would soon be desirous to earn a live* lihood for themselves rather than be a burden on others. The spirit of independence is such, that they would not go into the workhouse if they could get work out of doors ; and if there is none out of doors, it is a duty to obtain emidoymont for them by increasing national works. 2417. You referred to a case which was known to Sir George Warrender ?— It is the case of a poor paralytic from Dunbar, — a man thirty-six years of age, with a wife and three children. He was met by Sir George Warrender on the Haddington road. He stated that he had only Is. a week, — an insufficient allowance. Sir George asked him where" he was going. " Oh, to Edinburgh," was his reply. Many come like this man to Edinburgh for a subsistence on charity. We have not many statistical facts yy\t\\ regard to such cases ; but the children often beg for a time, and then they steal. I may mention, however, when asked about the lowest possible sum to support an adult man, that perhaps Is. might do for a single man. I know a man (that is the man Forbes), with whom we had considerable difficulty with reference to his settlement. He says " I can do very well with Is. per week ;" he has a pretty comfortable place with liis sister ; he says 6d. goes for nourishment, — very coarse indeed, but yet sufficient. 2418. For a week ? — Oh, yes ; sometimes he has not more than a roll a day. 2419. He looks to other sources ? — He has no other sources than that one shilling. Mr Brown, Mr George Forbes, and Mr Henry Grahame, aid in thus supporting him. 2420. You mean "that a man with a family might be supported for 2s. 6d. ? — I consider that as the sum for the lowest state, exclusive of house and clothing. 2421. AYhen you state that 2s. (id. would maintain a man and wife and four children, do you mean that that would be sufficient to maintain them without any other sources of in- e ?_Yes. 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxsuiinations. Mr W. Whyte. 14 March 1843. Mr William Whyte, Bookseller, Examined : — 2422. You arc treasurer of the society for the destitute sick ? — Yes. 2423. Do you give relief to a great many individuals during the year ? — My office is generally to pay money to the committee. I don't pay money personally myself; but, as treasurer, I give it as required. 2424. Have you a statement of the number relieved every year by the society ? — It is in the report, but I have not such a statement. 2425. Have you a copy of the report? — I have not. 2426. Are those people residing in Edinburgli, or do they profess to be from a distance? — Both ; but there are a great mmiber from Ireland. 2427. AYhat jjroportion do those relieved from Ireland bear to those who belong to the city ?— So far as I understand, there are two-thii-ds from Ireland of the whole relieved, — the rest belonging to Scotland. 2428. Are there any of those belonging to Scotland who are strangers to Edinburgh, and come from other places ? — Yes; tliere are a good number of them. 2429. Have you any notion of the proportion? — No. I am very seldom on the committee. 2430. Do you know whether many persons are relieved by your society who are receiving parochial relief? — They endeavour to avoid that as far as possible. We consider it an im- position on the society. If they have parish relief, aid is denied. 2431. You consider the class of persons you profess to relieve are persons not entitled to parochial relief? — Yes; just persons not entitled to parochial relief. We send them to their parish to receive relief; and, if it happens that they do receive relief from our society, it is Erobably when the parochial relief is considered too little for the family, and the head of tho imily is unable to provide for them. When he is able to provide, we never give if the family is sick. When the head of the family is sick and laid aside, we give assistance. So long as the head of the family is able to provide, we don't give relief; m'c send them to the parish. 2432. Do you know from your own personal knowledge, that the greater proportion of the poor in Edinburgh, relieved by your society, arc from a distance ? — A great proportion are. 2433. You say tliat two-thirds of those who have received relief from the society belong to Ireland? — That is my impression; but not being personally a visitor, I cannot speak positively. , 2434. Is that report for 1842 the last annual report ? — It is. 2435. You believe it is an accui-ate report ? — Yes. Mr Geo. Wilson. Mr George Wilson, Examined : — 2436. Are you one of the vice-presidents of the society for the destitute sick? — Yes. 2437. How long have you been acquainted with the society ? — Perhaps twenty years — intimately acquainted — I am one of the visitors. 2438. Would you describe to us what is the description of persons to whom relief is admi- nistered ? — The professed object of the society is to relieve those who arc not only destitute, but they must also be in circumstances of sickness, though that nde is very frequently de- parted from, to the extent of giving occasionally, when the bread-winner, as we call the person who works for the familj', is sick. They depart from that rule, just from not wishing to leave a house where they see destitution, without giving relief. That is not the object of the society; but if the parties apply one week or two, they generally leave after that. 2439. Do you give relief to those who have parochial relief? — Very seldom, except such as, in particular cases, to keep soid and body together; because parochial aid is, in many instances, little you know. 2440. Are you able to overtake all the demands on your charity ? — Oh, yes ; we are able to overtake all the demands on our chaiity ; that is to say, by pnident management, — by not giving away so much as might be needed ; but still by attending to every case. 2441. By economical management? — By economical management; but not only that, we could spend sixty times more If we had it. 2442. Are the funds increasing or diminishing? — Bather diminishing, I think; but I can- not speak distinctly. 2443. It is stated in the appendix of the report ? — Yes it is. 2444. Can you tell the proportion of individuals to whom you have given relief, that were in receipt of parochial relief at the same time? — No. I can't teU that. That could be got from the societj' or clerk ; for it is very seldom reported to the weekly meetings. 2445. Have you any doubt if the parochial allowances were adequate to the necessities of the cases, that you would be relieved from a considerable cxpenditm-e of your funds? — I have no doubt of that at all. 2446. There is a statement of the number of families relieved, and the number of indivi- duals. The list of parties relieved contains 3517. Is the list of those individuals and ftvmi- lies formed from enumeration or from estimate ? — From positive enmneration : for, when a visitor is going to report, he says, — " A. B., residing in such a place, with a wife, and one, two, three or more children." 2447. Not from a list nominatim? — No. Mr Robertson has a book with the columns filled up. 2448. Are they generally persons in very destitute circumstances to whom you give relief? POOK LA\y INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 141 — Yes ; but there is a very great variety of cases. There are some in the very lowest grades of society, and there are some extraordinary — what we call excellent — cases. A family just beginning to fall, and our coming in timeously to help them, just jirevents them from getting down into a grade into which they would soon fall otherwise. 2449. Generally, do you think them objects of parochial relief? — No. 2450. Generally, do you think they would be fit objects for- discretionary relief by the managers for temporary aid ? — I think, particularly to a considerable extent, they would ; but not generally. 2451. Why would they not be generally objects for the temporary lists? — Oh, you say the temporary list — -why, you know, they are just supposed to be laid up temjjorarily, and we supply them with funds sufficient to preserve them from want ; but whenever they get better they resume working. That is our object — the object of an immediate reUef. 2452. But if a working man be sick, and has no means to maintain himself while sick, ia he not an object for discretionary relief by the managers of the poor ? — He is not just now ; but I say he ought to be. 2453. He is not according to your idea of the poor law of Scotland ? — Oh dear, no. They would send them to us as especially fitted for us. 2454. Then, does it consist with your knowledge, that relief is given to able-bodied per- fions who are sick by the charity workhouse ? — It does not consist with my knowledge. 2455. Sujjpose sufficient funds were at the disposal of the charity workhouse, so as to enable them to supply the poor who are sick in a proper manner, would your establishment be unnecessary ? — Oh, yes. If the charity workhouse did as they ought, then our society would be of no use. If they had funds and applied them, it would take away the object of our society. 2456. According to your idea and impression of the law of Scotland, would not able-bodied fersons when sick be proper objects of discretionary relief by the managers of the poor? — don't know about the law ; but the practice is not to act in that way in Edinburgh. In many cases, persons will not seek assistance ; and when we find out such cases, we act liberally towards them that they may recover their ground. 2457. And does the spirit of independence exist largely jmiong the poor of Edinburgh still ?— Oh, to a very great extent — to an extent wliich would be refreshing to any one that witnessed it. 2458. When a person is convalescent, you withdraw his allowance ? — Yes ; but we don't withdraw it for a week if it be a good case. 2459. On withdrawing, do you give anything to help the person to subsist after he has ceased to be an object of your charity ? — We have no rule by which we could do that ; and we are very often abused by thoughtless visitors for not doing so. The only approach to it is a small fund bequeathed by a gentleman who was a member of the society. ^ 2400. You are aware, perhaps, that Mr Porteous, who was once chaplain to the jail of Edinburgh, engaged in a practice of lending out of his own pocket money to set up people? — No, I never heard distinctly about it. 2461. Would you think it desirable, when a person is reduced by long sickness, that he should receive money from a loan fond ? — Yes, it would be very desii-able, if there were any society of that kind. 2462. And that would cherish a spirit of independence ? — Yes, decidedly ; it would be invaluable. I have done it sometimes. I visited the ease of a mother and two youngish daughters, where her own hands had rendered tliem somewhat respectable ; she was labour- ing under illness. I gave her 4s. 6d. or 3s. 6d. a week, and sometimes meal or coal in winter. After I saw that the effect of om- giving up assistance on recovery would be attended with great injmy, I would sometimes continue them for a couple of weeks longer on the list. The usual course is to give weekly payments, whereas, in this case, I AAOuld give 9s. by anticipa- tion — that is the only approach to the system ; but there is no rule for it, and it rests on the prudence and discretion of the individual. 2463. Are you of opinion that such beneficent treatment could be canned on by a public charity — by the paid inspectors and managers of the workhouse, as well as by such a society as yours ? — I have very great doubt of that, unless they have the means of getting acquainted with the characters. It would need three or four months before that could be done. I would have a difficulty as to doing it, unless I had perfect confidence in the' character. 2464. Don't you think, where the allowance is so large as to render your society unneces- sary, it woidd be an evil to the poor if such societies as yours were to go down ? — Yes, it would. Under present circumstances, vmquestionably it would ; because a person who is possessed of the views I have, sees pecuhar uses in such a society. I hold that the society for the destitute sick is invaluable in a variety of ways, independently of the mere keeping of sold and body together. For example, it has been long conducted on christian principles. The visitors see that the chikh-cn go to school, and to the Sabbath school — they give in- striictlons — they see that the family have a bible — they give tracts, and attend to tilings which a legal charity would never think of, or be entitled to do. 2465. You doubt whether these benevolent objects coidd be gained by means of public functionaries ? — Well, I have great doubts. I speak from the result of fifty-five years' experience. 2466. Do you think it objectionable that pecuniary aid should be afforded In sickness, without adverting to rehgious subjects ? — By no means. But when you are administering the bounty of the society, it is a very fitting time for a christian man, if he knows the truth himself, to communicate it to others. 2467. Is it not the duty of ministers to visit ? — Oh yes ; but they can't overtake one- half. There are whole districts never visited, except by the city missionaries. Examinations. Mr Geo. Wilson. 14 Murch 1B«. 142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxainiiiatioits. Mr Geo. Wilson. 14 March 1U43. 2468. Never visited by the clergy ?— Never visited by the clergy — ^leus into which very few clergymen would enter. 1 have been in places, though lame, where it would be very insane for a minister to go. 24(59. Have you personal knowledge that there are places in Edinburgh which are not visited by the clergy ? — I speak from personal knowledge. I am secretary of the city mis- sion. I have heard a woman say, in a certain parish betwixt the old and new bridges, that sJie had lived for eighteen years in that house, and never had a visit from her own minister, or any other. 2470. But was she sick ? — Oh dear, no. I am not speaking of the sick at all. 2471. But do you consider that you adequately relieve the working classes in sickness from your funds voluntarily contributed ? — No, we don't adequately relieve, for it is only the destitute and sick whom we aid : and very often a visitor is obliged, after giving out of his private means, never to go back. 2472. I am speaking of the destitute and sick ? — I think we adequately relieve, except that our operations are earned on in a town where you can't know all the cases at once. I have seen cases in which aid ought to have been given three weeks ago — -sometimes mislaid or misdirected. We can't say that we overtake every thing ; but every case that comes in a regidar fonn is visited. 2473. But are there many cases of destitute sickness which don't come under your notice? — Vast numbers. 2474. If they were brought imder your attention, would you have ftinds enough ? — Yes, I believe we would, in consequence of the munificence of an old office-bearer. 2475. The cases are visited by the committee ? — Yes. 2476. Have you paid officers ? — We have three. We have two secretaries, one honorary, the other paid. The Rev. Mr Tweedie has been appointed instead of the late Dr Dickson. We have also a clerk. 2477. What are his duties ? — To attend the weekly meetings, and to place in the proper book the reports of all the visitors. He has to attend and give schedules, and he has to take notes of various things connected with the business— to give out notices of meetings, and also to pay particidar attention to the calls from various classes — to see a chair brought from the royal infirmary, and the patient carried away, so that the infection may not spread. 2478. But he has nothing to do with the Inspection ? — Nothmg. That is all done by the gentlemen of the committee. 2479. When parties are sick, do you provide them with nutritious diet and wine, and so forth ? — No. For a long time when things were under a more liberal management, there was a quantity of wine over at the communion ; that was sent to us, and generally served during the whole year over, to administer to cases of extreme weakness. But this has been given up ; and we seldom have wine, except when a lady or other benevolent person sends a dozen at a time. If a case requires wine, the visitor would allow as much as woidd pay for a pint or half a pint. But that is not generally taken Into account. 2480. But do you provide nutritious diet ? — No ; except in cases where the money woidd go into whisky. The visitor woidd in that case, call at a pm-veyor's and say, — see such and such a party has so much good bread daily. But that is no part of the society's business. Mr E. ( hapnr.an. Mr Edward Chapman, Apothecary of the New Town Dispensary-, Examined : — 2481. You are apothecary of the New Town dispensary? — Yes. 2482. \Miat is the object of the institution ? — ^To affi)rd aid to the poor. 2483. Do you afford aid to the poor who are on the parochial list, who are receiving from the town charities, such as the City and West Church workhouses ? — We do. It is often observed, but it is not imdei'stood that we should do so. 2484. Have you an opportimity of seeing many persons who have made application for aid ? — Yes. 2485. Do many of them come from Edinburgh or from the country? — A great proportion come from a distance. 2486. Do you mean coming from a distance without having a residence in Edinburgh ? — A great part. 2487. Of what description are they? — Generally people who come in search of work. 2488. And at the moment resident in Edinburgh ? — Not at the time resident in Edin- burgh. 2489. Where do they generally reside? — There is a great number of Irish labourers. 2490. A greater number of Irish than of Scotch ? — A greater number of Scotch. 2491. But Scotchmen from the country, or do they not profess belonging to Edinburgh? — Some of them do not. 2492. What proportion do those from Edinburgh bear to those who do not ? — I could scarcely say. 2493. What is the pro2)ortion of Irish and Scotch that apply to the dispensary ? — Pro- bably about two to six. 2494. And with regard to Scotch or English ? — Some are English, some Scotch. 2495. You say your principle is not to give assistance to parties in the receipt of pai-ochial relief: is that principle founded on the idea that they have medical attendance from the rOOll LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 143 parish to which they belong? — Those that are in the workhouse, and have been long con- f^xaminations. nected with it. "rr — 2496. But who are in the receipt of outdoor relief, and not m the workhouse ? — Oh, these " March la^.* are attended to. 2497. And you consider it your duty to attend to them ? — ^Yes, 2498. That falls under the principle of the charity ? — Yes. 2499. Do you know the proportion in your dispensary of individuals I'ecelving out-relicf, and at the same time receiving relief from you ? — About 5000 a year is the average. 2500. The whole number of cases ? — Our whole number of cases. 250L I was asking what is the proportion of individuals who are in receipt of parochial relief? — 25 per cent. — one-fourth. 2502. Could you furnish any statistical table on the subject? — Yes; and I shall send one. 2503. You take a note of those who receive parocliial relief? — They are, I believe, distin-r guished in the book. But there is no regular report. 2504. There is a note taken of that particular fact ? — Sometimes there is, and sometimes not. 2505. Then, so far as it goes, it would show how many you know to be in receipt of paro(;hial relief? — Yes. 250G. Then your statement must be necessarily imperfect? — Yes, it must, 2507. But to a certain extent, it will show that many are in the receipt of parochial relief who have assistance from you ? — Yes, Wednesday/, 15th March 1843, MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., Edward Twisleton, Esq., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Dr ylbercrombie. Examined : — 2508. You are president of the society for the relief of the destitute sick ? — Yes. 2509. You have paid a good deal of attention to that society, and the working of it ? — Yes. 2510. Can you tell us what proportion of persons receiving parochial aid are relieved by the Destitute Sick Society ? — I cannot tell the exact proportion ; but there is a considerable number. It does not cut them off from relief from our society, though it modifies the allowances. The proper intention of the Destitute Sick Society, is not for the common pur- poses of pauperism ; the original intention of it was for a different purpose altogether, for people who are in distress merely from sickness, and who, when in health, are in employ- ment, and in comfortable circumstances comparatively. The intention of the society is to relieve them from distress arising out of sickness ; therefore, the allowance is considerably larger than the allowance given by the institutions for pauperism. 2511. Supposing there was no such society, would not a great number of those persons be fit subjects for parochial relief? — That depends on circumstances. People assisted by our society may, or may not, have a claim to parochial relief. 2512. Would it be a disadvantage if the destitute sick were relieved by parochial aid instead of by the society ? — It is right to state that the society has a separate object altogether from the mere pecuniary aid. The original intention of it was, that the visitors should carry religious instruction to the people visited, and this is not only an essential part of the constitution of the society, but is acted on. 2513. That would be an argument in your mind for continuing the exertions of the society, rather than substituting parochial aid in its stead ? — Yes : the real design of the society would not be compensated by mere parochial aid in the ordinary way. 2514. Are you acquainted with the working of the house of refuge ? — Very little, 2515. Do you know the working of the royal infirmary ,'' — A little : I have never been officially connected with it, however. 2516. Are there persons retained in the infirmary after they are cured, from the diffi- culty in getting parochial aid for them ? — In some cases they keep them longer than they would wheu they find they are not able for their work. [Dr Abercrombie here produced ^^_a pamphlet, entitled " Observations on the Moral Condition of the Lower Orders in Edin- r" "■" Dr Aberi-rombie. 15 March 1843. 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAia:N BEFORE THE Examinations. Dr Abercromliie. II Muich 11113. 2517. By whom was this table drawn up ? — By myself and another elder who went along with me in the investigation, — Mr Balfour. 2518. Does this include the whole royalty ? — ^No ; it is only a district in the Cowgate as a specimen. 2519. It relates to one of the parishes of the Old Town ? — To a district of one of the Old Town parishes, Lady Tester's parish, a part of it stands in the Cowgate where the investi- gation was made. 2520. Was this taken up in the year 1834 ? — I forget whether it was the year 1834, which is the date of this second edition, or the year before. 2521. Do you think it possible that the poor in Edinburgh could be taken care of by kirk-sessions ? — It would require a great increase of the agency ; but it is a favourite idea of mine, that a great deal might be done in that way by elders, deacons, and visitors acting along with the kirk- sessions, so as to bring a large number of people of that class into more habitual contact with the poor. 2522. Would you not anticipate difficulty in finding persons to do the duty ? — I think not. I recommended the experiment in that paper. It was thought that individuals could be got to do the work, and that a general system might be arranged. 2523. Did you contemplate that an arrangement might be made in regard to dissenters ? — Some of us thought that dissenters might be taken in as a part of the agency. 2524. By giving them a particular locality ? — Yes ; a small locality. The great object was to make the localities small, so as to be burdensome to nobody, and so that the agents might make themselves acquainted with the whole circumstances of the poor, that they might act, in short, as their friends and advisers. 2525. Would you recommend that dissenters should have the charge of the poor of the Established church in their locality? — It is difficult to say ; some thought that it might be done ; while others thought that there would be objections to it. The fact is, that many of these poor creatures belong to no church whatever. 252G. There is a considerable number of Irish people attached to the Roman Catholic church in those poor localities, — would there be no danger in dealing with them ? — The Irish in general do not object to be visited by persons connected with the Established church, for. the mere purpose of charity at least. 2527- Do you think it possible that if such a system were established, sufficient means would be found by voluntary subscriptions, or would you contemplate an assessment, the funds to be placed in the hands of the kirk-session ? — That is n most difficult question. When we look at the whole question — upon what I may call the principles of moral science — it is of the utmost importance to recognize one great fundamental principle, which lies at the root of the whole management of the poor, namely, — that the differences in external con- dition among men are calculated to answer a great purpose, in a state of moral discipline, in the culture of the benevolent affections. It is of the utmost importance that this prin- ciple should be kept in view in all our dealings with the poor, — and this, of course, can be done only by voluntary contributions, so far as it is possible to make them answer the purpose. 2528. Admitting the soundness of that principle, do you think it practicable in the pre- sent state of the city of Edinburgh ? — I am not prepared to give an answer on that point. But there is another point which requires to be taken in. Setting aside the simple question of pauperism, there are a gre.at many cases to which an assessment might be applied with great benefit. An assessment might be properly applied in an emergency, such as the year of the cholera, for instance, — in such an emergency as the present year, an assessment might with great propriety be applied ; and also for the support of great institutions, such as the infirmary, to which no assessment has ever been applied. 2529. Where would you vest the power of judging of such cases as the cholera, whethei* an assessment should be applied or not ? — I think it might be well vested in such a body as the privy council. Or in some public body, which would not lead to the delay required by an act of Parliament for the specific purpose. I am not prepared to say in what public body, but in some body that would act with promptitude when the emergency arose. 2530. It would require a large discretionary power ! — Yes ; but still the cases seem to be pretty distinctly defined. 2531. Under ordinary circumstances would you be prepared to intrust the management of the poor to kirk-sessions, if the system of voluntary contribution were adopted 1 — I am anxious that it should be done in that manner ; but a much more extensive agency would be required. 2582. Would such an arrangement be practicable in the present state of the city of Edinburgh ? — I am scarcely prepared to say whether it would or would not, there are so many difficulties in the way. The voluntary contributions would greatly increase, and church extension would be one means to promote it, and some arrangement would be re- quired in regard to dissenters, so that they should contribute. It would require great and extensive agency, which would be a constant means of communication between the poor and the better ranks, and a great deal might be raised, much more than has been raised yet. 2533. As part of the system, you would contemplate building new churches ? — Yes ; or giving some endowment to the unendowed churches, so that they might not be under the necessity of applying their collections to other purposes than to the poor. 2534. Your present observations apply both to the city parishes and the suburban parishes .'' — Yes. 2535. The city parishes are small in population, about 3000 generally. Is that too large a number to be under the kirk-session in regard to paupers ? — Not with the assistance of an agency of this kind. POOR LAW COMMISSION INQUIRY FOR SCOTLAND. 145 2536. Do you think an agency might easily be procured for such small parishes ? — Exaniination*. Yes. 7 1^.^ 2537. How would you propose to raise the funds for increasing the endowments ? — If 'J Mare"h°i'«43*. that is to be done, it ought to be done by government. 2538. Do you mean the public purse for the building and endowment of churches ? — Not so much for building as for endowment. The unendowed churches are obliged at present to apply their collections to private purposes. 2539. Would the dissenters in Scotland accede to, or approve of, a proposal of that kind? — It has already been done to a certain extent in the government churches, and I am not aware that any objections were made. It js extensively done in Ireland in the synod of li'lster. They receive the regium donum from government, varying from 50/. to 100/. a year, and averaging 75/. 2540. Would there be sufficient zeal in these voluntary societies to make the plan work permanently well.' — I should hope so. 2541. Would you propose to intrust the relief of able-bodied persons to these voluntary societies? — There might be a discretionary power to give occasional relief; but that would scarcely be considered as a permanent part of the business. Cases of particular distress must occur, where occasional relief must be given. 2542. Would not the knowledge of this have a tendency to impair the habits of provi- dence of the working classes ? — It might to a certain extent ; but if the power were discre- tionary, they would know that it is not a thing to trust to. 2543. Might they not calculate on the feelings of human nature 't — I do not know, but they might in some cases. No scheme of the kind can be got to work without objections. 2544. AVould you calculate any restrictions by the voluntary associations, as to the able- bodied ? — That is a point extremely difficult. 1 think it would be very difficult to legislate in regard to it. 2545. In regard to the Destitute Sick Society, does it extend to the whole of Edinburgh 1 — Yes ; the Old and New Towns. 2546. Is it generally known that relief will be granted by the society I — Yes. 2547. And a working man who is brought down by sickness knows that he may apply to that society 2 — Yes. 2548. I observe it stated in one of the cases, that the society is instrumental in snatching^ many from death, — is that your conviction ? — I have no doubt of it. 2549. Do you consider that it sufficiently relieves the destitute from sickness existing in Edinburgh ? — I do not know that it does entirely ; but the relief is very effectual, at least it gives great relief. 2550. Are there cases which do not come within the knowledge of the society? — It is. very likely there may ; but the cases they have are extensive, and the funds are very con- siderable. 2551. Are you aware that there are such institutions as medical clubs in Edinburgh, to which the poor contribute when in health, so as to be entitled to aid in sickness ? — Not in Edinburgh, I should think, because they are not required here. The services of the younger medical men are zealously given in the operations of the dispensaries ; and I do not tiiink that the club system is practised here. It is a system practised among colliers and cotton spinners, and such like, hut, so far as I know, not in town. 2552. When a working man is sick, and the case is visited, does he receive a sum of money for the whole of his family while he is sick? — Yes; it is intended to apply to the whole family. In a case of fever, he is removed to the infirmary, and they receive the allowance. 2553. The system is to give a provision to the family while the man is ill ? — Yes. 2554. Has not that practice a tendency to produce improvidence in working men while they are well, so that they do not make a provision for sickness? — That is the objection that may be urged against every thing of the kind in one view of it ; but, in regard to these people, they have such a fight to get on in any way, that few of them have it in their power to make a provision, except some that pay into societies by which they are allowed so much a week during sickness. I find that a good many of the working classes have made that provision. 2555. The Destitute Sick Society, to a certain extent, has a tendency to discourage the sick societies ? — I do not know that. 255(5. You refer to friendly societies, I presume? — Yes. The Destitute Sick Society is so well known in Edinburgh, that it can be calculated on to give relief when destitution arises from sickness. 2557. Are there any other charitable institutions in Edinburgh of which you take the charge ? — There is one, of a more limited kind, which 1 know about : it is intended for aged females. There are, indeed, two of these female societies, senior and junior. 2558. What is the description of these societies ? — They are intended for the relief of indigent old women. 2559. Are they connected with the society for the relief of the destitute sick ! — No. 2560. What is the object of these two societies .''—They are composed of ladies, chiefly young ladies, of respectable families, who take on their "funds a certain number of aged, women, and visit them once a week, and give them a certain allowance. 2561. Destitute old women ? — Yes. 2562. Do many of these persons receive aid from the parochial funds? — Some of thenu They generally have about 100 on their list at a time, and they continue the same indivi- duals till vacancies occur. 2563. Are you speaking of the senior society, or both ?— It is the one called the junior 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exsmiivitions. I know most about. Some of nij' family take an interest in it. I do not know so mucli 1" • about the other, but the object is the same. 15 Maich 1U43. 2564. What is the amount of relief generally afforded ? — From one shilling to one shil- ling and sixpence a week. 2565. Old women who have probably no families ? — Women of very respectable char- acter who have nobody to look after them. The ladies visit them once a week, and inquire into their comfort. The visit is of some length, and perhaps the ladies read to them a little, and keep up such kind of intercourse. 25G6. The fund is raised by private subscription ? — Yes ; and a sermon once a year. 2567. What is the usual amount of the fund of the junior society in the year? — I do not know exactly the full amount of the fund, but the allowance is generally from one shilling to one shilling and sixpence a week ; and 100 are supplied in that way. This may give you an idea of the amount of the fund. 2568. Do you consider the destitution in Lady Tester's parish a fair sample of the lower classes in Edinburgh? — It is not the worst ; perhaps it is about the average condition. It contains a very considerable proportion of respectable tradesmen, who have steady good wages, not the mere labouring classes. 2569. Is it your opinion that there is much unrelieved poverty existing in Edinburgh? — A great deal, I believe. 2570. Would you recommend any change in the medical treatment of the poor ? — A great deal is done for them in that respect. I think, perhaps, that there is rather too much in that way left to voluntary aid. It would be a fair subject for assessment. 2571. Do you think the dispensaries quite sufficient for the supply of medicine and advice to the poor ? — The medical men connected with them are very numerous and active. The difficulty is in getting the necessary funds. District surgeons with salaries, as in Glasgow and Greenock, wovdd be a great improvement ; and this I think would be a fair object for assessment. I think it is extraordinary that such an institution as the infirmary of Edin- burgh should be pressed for funds. It is a subject well worthy of the attention of the Commission ; many patients come to it from the surrounding counties. 2572. Would you recommend that the county of Mid-Lotliian should bear the assessment for paying the expenses of the infirmai"y ? — It is quite right that other counties should con- tribute a part. 2573. In expressing your opinion that this institution should be supported from the pub- lic funds, you would include the lunatic asylum ? — Yes, the lunatic asylum, and other insti- tutions of a similar class, — for the blind, for instance. In Ireland a great deal has been done by the public for all institutions of this kind. In Dublin most of the public institutions receive large assistance from government. 2574. Do you think that this is not attended with any abuse in Ireland ? — I do not know ; but certainly provision is thus made for such institutions being carried on in a state of great efficiency. 2575. If these institutions were provided for, would a considerable sum be left free for other charities ! — Yes. 2576. Do you think this would increase the efficiency of kirk-sessions, supposing them to have a sufficient agency ? — I think so. It would enable them by their communications with the wealthier part of the community, to supply the wants of the poor. 2577. Supposing this were in the hands of kirk-sessions, would you contemplate the instant doing away with assessments for ordinary purposes ? — That is a matter of great difficulty. I am not prepared to give a distinct opinion as to that. 2578. You would not propose that the power of levying assessments should be withdrawn by legislative enactment ; at all events under the present circumstances ? — No. 2579. In the event of assessment being continued for such time as may be necessary, should not dissenters and other religious bodies be allowed to take charge of their own poor ? — Yes ; I believe some of them do so. 2580. And if there were to be an annual report in regard to the poor in connexion with dissenters, and in connexion with the establishment, — each made to some public board, would not this have a tendency to increase the efficiency of the system ? — Yes. 2581. And then the care of the poor territorial, that did not belong to the dissenting body, would belong to the Established church ? — Yes, with the agency alluded to. 2582. Might not the effect of a comparison being thus instituted in the management of the poor between the Established church and the dissenting bodies, cherish a favourable tendency in both ? — Yes, I think it might. 2583. Would not this arrangement do away with the difficulty in dealing with dissenters in the matter ? — It might in some degree. But there is a difficulty here from the consi- deration, that among some bodies not belonging to the Established church, there are numerous poor, and tlie congregations not wealthy ; while among others there are wealthy congregations, and very few poor, as tlie Episcopalians. 2584. I think you have already expressed the opinion, that over and above providing for the poor, the moral tendency of the system would be far more favourable than that which now exists ? — Yes, the moral superintendence that would arise out of this system, would be of more consequence than mere pecuniary relief, — the superintendence of education, and in a variety of other ways. It has been well remarked by a late writer, that what the poor principally want is a friend, — something quite distinct from mere pecuniary assistance, — a friend that would enter into all their circumstances, always at hand to give advice and assistance in a variety of ways. 2585. Who is the writer to whom you allude.-' — Bosanquet. POOR LAW INQUIllY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 147 2586. Is it your opinion that kirk-sessions, constituted as you describe, would furnish the cordially connecting link between the upper and the lower classes ? — Yes, assisted by such an agency, and in that way carry on an harmonious intercourse for the mutual advantage of both. 2587. Would it not be possible to have this visitation of the poor, without introducing pecuniary considerations at all ? — No doubt it would ; but it would be disadvantageous, if people, having talien this kind of constant and friendly interest in a certain number of poor, should not have it in their jjovver to give pecuniary assistance. 2588. Would they not always have it in then- power to give charity ? — Yes, but they might not have the means. I have no doubt that an immense deal of private charity would arise from that, which is not brought into play from the want of this intercourse. A great deal might be done by such an agency in that way. Provision would thus also be made for promoting the comfort of the helpless and deserving poor, the legal provision for whom is certainly much too small, as in the case of widows with young families. 2589. Where there is a legal provision under strict regulations, is there not still great room for private charity ? — No doubt there is ; but the idea of a legal provision seems to have a deadening influence upon it. 2590. Is it your opinion, that there are associations, which are not associations for district visiting, where considerable sums are expended by private individuals ? — I am quite aware that a great deal is done in this way. 2591. Supposing the allowance from the public funds were such as to afford clothing and food to all the poor and destitute in the city, would not that have a direct and powerful effect in preventing private charity ? — It must always be kept in mind, that there would still remain an immense number of poor who had no claim on the legal provision. 2592. Then private charity would be confined to that small class .'' — Yes. 2593. But independently of the loss of private charity in this way, if they were legally entitled to full provision and food, would there be the same possibility of improving their morals ? — The opportunity of doing so would be much less favourable. KxiuniuaLions. Dr .'Vbei'crombie. 15th March l»43. Mr Alexander Ziegler, Ordinary Surgeon of the Edinburgh Lying-in-Hospital, Examined : — Mr A. Ziegler. 2594. You are surgeon for the general lying-in-hospital in Edinburgh ? — Yes. 2595. How long have you been so ? — Nearly six years. 2596. The establishment has been removed from Park Place 1 — Yes ; we were compelled to remove, the house having been sold in liquidation of a debt of 1400/., contracted in the maintenance of the establishment. 2597. Where is the establishment now ? — In Surgeon-square, in a building which was erected for the reception of fever patients of the royal infirmary. We are indebted to the managers of the royal infirmary for this temporary accommodation. 2598. Are the females introduced into the establishment generally of the lower classes ? — Yes, they are the most destitute. 2599. What number is in the establishment ? — Upon an average yearly within doors 200, and about 500 patients out of doors, who are attended and delivered in their own houses. 2600. Is there any limitation in the description of persons taken in, — is there no other limitation than that which arises from circumstances ? — We admit only the very poor ; in short, none else need apply to us. 2601. Do you conceive that it affords that description of relief to a considerable number of the destitute poor ? — I have no doubt it does that : many of those women have no home, — many are deserted poor, who, if they had not the protection of such an establishment, must be delivered at the public expense, or at the expense of the public authorities ; for I know not where else they could go. 2602. Are you compelled to reject applicants for admission? — The limited funds require us not to extend the charity. 2603. Are the rejections numerous? — Not numerous. Where individuals are in circum- stances not to be suitable inmates of such an establishment, we have been disposed to reject them ; but these are few, — few such apply to us. 2604. I suppose it is generally understood among the lower classes that there is such an institution to which they may apply? — It is generally known. The belief at present is, that the institution has been abandoned, in consequence of our removal from Park Place ; but it will be soon imderstood by that class of patients that the report is unfounded. 2605. You make no distinction between those who are stationary inhabitants and those who are strangers ? — No distinction. 2606. Does it often happen that persons apply who are not generally resident in Edin- burgh? — We have many individuals applying, from many parts of the country, and many from the neighbourhood. 2607. Do those people come in solely for the purpose of being delivered at the institution ? — So far as we know, that is their object. 2608. Do any come from a great distance ?— They come from Stirling, Perth, Dimdee, Haddington, and from different parts of the country. 2609. Are they far advanced in pregnancy when they come to you ? — Very far. Many come reporting that they have been deserted by their husbands, — some come from a fear of difficulty in their case ; some of them are the wives of soldiers stationed in Edinburgh ; and among them there are a good many wives of Irish labourers who come over for the 148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAI^EN BEFORE THE Kxaininatioiis. harvest ; and there are also victims of seduction, who com*, perhaps, with a view to con- — -— ceal their situation- li'^Nfanh fa43 2610. Are many of them in thB receipt of parochial relief? — I cannot answer as to that. 2611. What is the ])roportioQ of those victims of seduction, and of respectable women who are inmates there for the time ? — It is impossible to state that. Too oft«n, in putting the question whether they are married or unmarried, I may get an answer which is not the truth ; and I do not often, in consequence, press the question ; but there is no doubt that many of the patients are the wives of the industrious poor, whose ill-vcntilated, crowded houses, afford neither the quiet nor comfort so necessary to their recovery. 2612. You say that many of them have been deserted by their husbands, — are these wandering poor who come from distant parishes \ — Many of them are sent from the house of refuge, some from the infirmary, and some from the lock hospital, and a few come from the police establishment. 2613. Could you suggest any Improvement of the system as it at present exists .' — No improvement occurs to me. There is an absolute demand for support, — we receive very little from the public. Hitherto the hospital has been supported by voluntary contribu- tions, and the e may only average about 100^ a year. It is partly also supported by the fees of pupils who attend it. The professor of midwifery gives up the hospital fees for the «upport of the house ; and all the medical officers attend gratuitously. These are the only means, very inadequate means, for the support of the hospital, which has never received from the public that countenance to which it is entitled, both as a most useful charity, and as a school of instruction for practical midwifery. Unless some means for its support can be devised, more liberal, and less precarious than it has hitherto enjoyed, it must, at no distant time, be broken up. 2614. Have you a printed report? — Yes, this is the latest. [Given in.] 2615. Is it supported only by voluntary subscriptions ? — Only by voluntary subscriptions, and the fees of the pupils. 2616. You have no mortification, and no legacies ? — None. Her. I)r Muir. Hev. Dr Muir, Minister of St Stephen's Parish, Edinburgh, Examined : — 2617. You are one of the ministers of the Established church in Edinburgh \ — Yes. 2618. How long have you been a minister ? — I was ordained in the year 1812. I was ten years in Glasgow, and since that time, 1822, I have been in Edinburgh. 2619. You have been in two diflPerent parishes ? — In two difl^erent parishes. I was first in the Greyfriars, in the south side of the town, and now I am in St Stephen's in the north. 2620. In the parish in which you are at present, is there a large proportion of the popu- lation who are amongst the destitute poor I — No : the parish of St Steplien's is in that portion of the city which includes what may be called the wealthier part of the population. At the same time, there is, in the heart of my parish, which exceeds between 6000 and 7000, — in the midst of the very best of the inhabitants, — a number of poor persons, or per- sons almost on the brink of pauperism. 2621. Do many of them receive parochial relief? — I cannot tell the number who are receiving assistance from the charity workhouse ; and the reason is, that the entire man- agement of the charity workhouse, so far as relates to parochial relief, is in the hands of the managers of the workhouse ; the ministers and elders have therefore nothing to do with the distribution of relief. 2622. Have you any general knowledge of the state of the poor in Edinburgh I — When I was in the south side of the town, I had the Grassmarket and a portion of the Cowgate in my parish, and I was frequently brought into contact with the poorest and the lowest. I had a great deal of intercourse then with persons in the very lowest grades in society. 262-3. Was their situation very destitute ? — There was extreme destitution in many portions of the parish. 2624. Were these persons receiving parochial relief? — There were among them both the relieved and unrelieved. But not a few in that parish were very migratory. There are portions of the south side of Edinburgh, not a few of the inhabitants of which are re- sident there only for a short time, of course never acquiring legal residence ; therefore they are thrown entirely on begging, or casual employment, such as they are able to undertake. 2625. Have you the means of knowing generally, whether the amount received was adequate to their wants ? — What was received by them as outdoor pensioners, never was, and never could have been intended to be sufficient support to them. 2626. Does that apply to persons totally incapable of work, as well as to others ? — Yes. Even those who are personally unable to make any exertions for themselves, received in the shape of aliment as outdoor pensioners, that which it was physically impossible could be construed into sustenance and support. At the same time, in these cases, there are often some visible means of a little support coming from members of the family, and relatives who may be disposed to aid them. This, of course, is very precarious, depending on the whim or caprice of individuals. 2G27. But it appears to you that the parochial funds are inadequate? — The allowance is POOR LAAY INQUIKY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 149 inadequate, — it is utterly impossible for the poor to support themselves upon it,. It is Exariiinaa.inc. merely an accessory by which they may be enabled to eke out other means. 2G28. You have stated, that a great "portion in the Old Town parish was migratory? — I /g'^M-^'i^iala said not a great portion, but not a few of them ; not a few of them were poor Irish ; and they resided only for a few weeks or months. There were curious sorts of receptacles in which they were gatliered together. I remember one close in which there was a place that went by the name of the beggar's hotel. I surprised them by a visit one night, and counted in one small room thirty persons. Here they had accommodation according to their several grades or deposits of payment. Some had their bed for twopence, some for threepence, and some a penny a night. 2629. Were those who dwelt in rooms of their own ill off in point of furniture and clothing? — Yes ; they were squalid looking creatures, without dress and without furniture. There were many of them whose whole furniture consisted of two stools. 26^30. Was there much intemperance amongst them? — Why, there was, I dare say. This seemed to be in too many cases the root and origin of their poverty. 2631. Might not destitution be the cause of intemperance? — I believe that both were causes ; intemperance the cause of destitution, and destitution the cause of intemperance,. They get depressed, and betake themselves to artificial stimulants. At the same time, on the contrary, I cannot help stating this case which occurred to me, and which exenv- plifies what may be done in very destitute circumstances, where there is christian prin- ciple, moral and independent feeling. I had occasion to know a family ; the husband was an indolent drunken sot, would do nothing for himself, and did not bring in a fartliing to the house. The wife, on the other hand, was an active, virtuous, well-principled, pious woman, who toiled from year to year to bring up her family. This woman interested me very much, as illustrating what I refer to. She had three children, and I never could understand very well how she supported them and her husband. I endeavoured to persuade her to take pecuniary aid ; she refused. I tried all sorts of methods to get her to take relief; she always repelled the offer ; she would not even take aid in the education of her children. She continued toiling, and brought up her children, and gave them a good education. She got her daughter, the eldest, apprenticed to a milliner ; and soon after her apprenticeship was over, having acquitted herself well, she got a small share in the business. Her two sons turned out well, and she is now supported by her sons. Now, the question with me is, if this can be done in one instance, why not in another, unless it were for the habits of dissipation ? It appears to me that the woman had no support except whal^ she earned with her own hands. She let me know that she was in the habit of pawning articles when she was in want, and redeeming them afterwards. She washed and sewed to families, cleaned houses, and turned her hand to anything. 2632. Was the state of the children of the poorer classes under your observation ? — Yes. 2G33. Were they properly attended to, or the reverse t — The reverse. 2634. Had they no education ? — None at the desire of their parents. In the greater number of cases education had to be pressed upon them. I speak now in regard to cases that came under my eye in the south side of the town. In my present parish there are 2500 of the labouring classes ; and many of whom are on the brink of pauperism, and require propping. I do not find t/iat class to be careless of the education of their children. 2635. Is the education gratuitous 1 — TJ.ere are cases in my parish in which the educa- tion must be gratuitous ; but I acknowledge that, from experience, I am a great enemy to gratuitous education. I would not refuse to take from the parents even a farthing at a time. It is the child who pays whose attendance can be reckoned on, and not those who are sent gratuitously, according to my experience. 2630. I presume your kirk-session take no charge of the distribution of any funds ? — No. 2637. The collections go to the charity workhouse ? — Yes ; they aie doled out by the charity workhouse ; and when the kirk-session interferes, it is merely in the way of mediating between the poor and the managers, for the purpose of aliment. 2638. What means do the managers of the charity workhouse take to make themselves acquainted with the situation of the poor? — They have certain functionaries whom they employ. The ordinary way in which the pauper I'aises his application to the board is this : — He gets a schedule from the charity workhouse ; he comes to me with it in the first in- stance. I set about inquiring into his circumstances, with a view to filling up the schedule, and giving a certificate. The elder of the district in which the applicant lives does the same, so that we may be qualified together to fill up and subscribe the schedule. It is ■then given in to the charity workhouse, and then there are a certain number of queries put to the pauper, which he has to answer. Then it is handed over to the committee and the ■committee employ a functionary of their own to overhaul the case, so as to be enabled to give his attestation as to wliat we certified, or the reverse. 2639. Do you conceive that the management of the poor funds would be better in the hands of the charity workhouse than in the hands of kirk-sessions ? — The experience I had in Glasgow, where the ministers and kirk-sessions are the distributors of the money raised, makes me think, that if the ministers and kirk-sessions in large cities are to have the ma- nagement, there must be a considerable modification from the plan pursued there. It has occurred to me, that the minister and kirksession should have the special superintend- ence and alimenting of the poor who hold something of a religious and moral character. I should like very much that the ministers and kirk-session should have devolved on them what may be called the care of tlie godly poor. It strikes me that there should be a distinction in treatment between that class of the community and others of an opposite 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, character. I think that the treatment which those godly persons should receive, is a ~ — ~ . treatment of gentleness and kindness, and encouragement, which, with all the good Is^Maifh la-^i principle actuating the distributors of the public money of the charity workhouse, cannot be exercised through the ordinary functionaries. These persons, without de- sign on their part, do acquire, from its being their business to investigate — from their looking into every case with suspicion — do acquire, I say, a very harsh mode of going to work. I am not, as you will observe, charging them with any design of acting so, but it is almost the effect of their business. They are sent to check the report of the ministers and elders, and by a board whose great object is to economise money. The functionary knows and feels this ; and he sets about the whole work with suspicion ; and that engen- ders towards the poor something that is harsh, overbearing, and tyrannical — at least the poor feel it so ; and so much do they feel it, that it is always with reluctance, in so far as regards any poor of my own parish, whose godly character I am aware of, that I send them as applicants to the charity workhouse. The poor whom I have described should be relieved by the kirk-session, and if possible also, the support of that portion of the poor should arise entirely from Sabbath-day collections ; and this would produce a good effect in our congregations. Supposing I could say to my congregation, there is a portion of the money you give at the church doors to be husbanded by me and the kirk-session, for the purpose of supporting and encouraging those of whose character we have formed a favourable opinion — the collections would be trebled, I would say quadrupled. It is at present the most heart- less thing as matters go on now. It is a mere drop to add to the assessment, and the people know it. They still keep up the good custom of giving their alms as they enter the church ; but, I am quite sure, that were we to have the support of our own godly poor in this way, that the collections would be, as I said, quadrupled. 2640. Do you conceive that collections would be sufficient to maintain the description of poor you allude to ? — I am thoroughly persuaded of it. 2641. You look not only to your own parish, but you conceive it would be general through the town ? — I do think so. I am very far from encouraging the notion advocated by some, that the support of the whole poor should be thrown on voluntary contributions — very far from it. The community should become bound for the support of the poor, looking at the state of the country, and the destitution of the people at large. 2642. Do you consider that intemperance is a great cause of destitution ? — I think it is a very great cause, though at the same time, I acknowledge it is often the effect of destitu- tion. It is evident that there is a false feeling of strength given by artificial stimulants, which deludes many into the use of them. 2643. You were in Glasgow at the time when the voluntary contributions were tried in St John's parish ? — Yes. 2644. Did the example of that parish not operate on you to imitate the system ? — No. 2645. Will you state why you were not so induced? — First of all, in regard to pauperism, it occurs to me that the relief of all and sundry who come under the head of the poor, must not be thrown entirely on the tender mercies of those who are able to give. My opinion is, that there must be a fixed legal provision for the purpose of meeting the demand of in- creased and increasing want. I do not think it is just, besides, in general that the relief of pauperism should be thrown on those only who are able to give ; but, moreover, I think that the experiment which you have referred to,-cannot be properly made, nor can the result of it, as it strikes me, be such as one may rest upon with confidence, unless, in making the experiment, the whole system of parochial arrangement in a great town be changed — I mean that a great town such as Edinburgh should be broken down into a number of distinct parishes, and that an individual entering into one parish, be obliged to complete his three years' residence before he acquires a right to aliment. It does not occur to me that you can make the experiment you allude to, until what I have referred to be provided for. Sup- posing I were to try such an experiment, and had zealous agents who were anxious to elaborate the result, which they knew I was devotedly attached to, the easiest plan for doing it would be to announce to the paupers within the parish, " it is our design to give you a certain sum, and we strike it at the lowest pitch ;" the result would be, a migration from that parish in which such an extreme economical plan was to be followed ; and as matters are, in the migrating from this parish to another, they would only have to step across the street, and might apply there, not having lost the town's general aliment. It I would be absolutely necessary to convert the town into separate and distinct parishes. Edinburgh is looked on as one great parish — so is Glasgow ; so that an individual stepping from my parish into an adjoining parish does not lose his right to his aliment. 2646. Have you reason to believe there was a migration from St John's into neighbour- ing parishes? — Not having had an opportunity of observing it, I cannot say. But I might answer on another ground ; I can understand how an individual, moving on with a scheme such as you have referred to, may, through a variety of means, and strong influence, be able to draw, from all quarters of a city, into one focus, what was sufficient to enable the expe- rimenter to support a large mass of poor ; but this would not prove the eligibility of the scheme as one adapted to every district. The experiment was taken up by Dr Chalmers' friends in Glasgow, and tried ; but they have been obhged to give it up, It was also tried in the outer High Church parish, by Mr Marshall, and there it failed. 2647. Are you aware that, at the time of this experiment in St John's, there was a migration into the parish ? — I am not aware of it ; there were many statements at the time contradictory. 2648. Do you know whether there was a distinction between the godly and ungodly in that parish ? — I cannot say. POOR LAW INQUIRY COilMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 151 2649. Have you any means of ascertaining whether the parish of St John's was better E.-jaminations. off than other parishes ? — 1 have no means of ascertaining that. The pittance to outdoor pensioners in Glasgow was very small. I am not able to say positively what it was. I ^*7- ^^l^fi'n would say, grossly speaking of it, that I think that which I was allowed to dole out to out- door pensioners was 2s. 6d. a month. There was one part of the management which, to tne, was always unsatisfactory and painful : there was so much allocated by the poorshouse in Glasgow for monthly distribution ; and if there happened to be an increase of poor for the month, it was necessary that the minister and elders should subdivide the funds as far as possible, and this made a variation. The system was such as here ; that which was given as aliment to the outdoor pensioners was never received as support, but only as accessory. 2650. Do you think the system of small allowances has a good effect on the poor ? — I do not know how to answer that question. It is not the giving of large allowances that is to cure the disease or evil. I think that the pouring in of abundance of money into the poor's coffers, would do a world of evil instead of good. I have a most decided aversion to any thing like a profuse principle of distribution. We will not cure the evil by the dispensing of money liberally to them. Something else is necessary ; that is religious and moral princi- ple, diffused through the means of a sound christian education. 2651. Would you recommend that the charge of the poor should be taken by the kirk- session rather than by the charity workhouse ? — I should like the distinction which I threw out hypothetically, to be attended to and followed out — the distinction as to the character of the poor. I should like that the minister and kirk-session had the charge of those in their parish, whose character was of the kind I would call godly, or at all events decent. 2652. But suppose it to be impracticable to enter into that distinction, would you think that the management of the poor generally should be in the hands of kirk-sessions 1 — I do not think it, as matters in great towns ai"e. If you were able to subdivide the parishes, and make them manageable, you would be coming nearer and nearer to parishes in their natural state. In their natural state they may be left wholly to the minister and elders, and left to Sabbath collections, without any assessment. What has always struck me is, that one portion of the poor should be relieved by assessment, and another by voluntary contribution in our great cities. 2653. But is it not the fact that the poor were maintained by voluntary contributions ; and if so, might it not be done elsewhere ? — It is possible, but it is not clear to me, that while by strong efforts a great influence may be made to bear on a particular spot, you may be able to accomplish the experiment on all other portions of the city. The query remains to be solved, whether it can be done everywhere in a great city. I think not. 2654. You would attribute the success of the experiment to funds from other quarters ? — I do not know all the circumstances of the experiment in St John's parish in Glasgow. It was tried in the outer High Church parish, and failed. 2655. Do you think it practicable to effect a restoration to the natural state of parishes in the Old Town of Edinburgh, so as to get the town managed by kirk- sessions ? — I do not think it possible, in a great city, to restore it. 2656. Not even with the aid of moral and religious instruction ! — I fear not ; for the reasons already referred to. 2657. Do you consider the chief cause of destitution to be intoxication ? — It is a very great cause ; but there are other causes. Here is a case that has come frequently under my eye : — A strong healthy man comes into town. He has a family. He gets employ- ment, and is successful ; and for a year or two gets on very well. He falls sick ; and if he has earned anything, it very soon disappears, One bit of furniture goes after an- other. He is obliged to descend from a better to a worse house ; and I find him, in the course of a short time, with his family, in one of those ^vretched tenements never intended for anything else but cellars. His health sinks under it. He is obliged to be taken to the infirmary ; and here is a family thrown into destitution. You cannot say that that man's destitution is to be traced to dissipation. 2658. Are these cases of frequent occurrence 1 — I meet with them frequently. There are periods in the history of the poor man, when, if we had the power to stretch forth our hand, it would be like thrusting the hand under the chin of a drowning man. Such a case as I have described would come under the class of the virtuous and decent portion of the poor. Let us have contributions thrown in for such persons as this man, and they may be saved from utter destitution. To have given to such a man a good substantial loan, would have been the saving of that man and his family. I may mention a suggestion that has wrought itself very much into my mind in regard to the labouring virtuous poor in Edinburgh. Take the case of the poor man who was obliged to be taken to the infirmary, and recovers. He can no longer be retained as an inmate in that establishment, as he is pronounced to be convales- cent ; and out he must go. Though convalescent, he is not able to enter into laborious oc- cupation. He, however, sets about it prematurely. His constitution becomes ruined for ever. Here you have the good effects of the infirmary neutralized by the premature return of this man to labour. If it were possible to have some sort of provision in the neighbour- " ood of this city, some well-aired comfortable cottages, to which the poor, in such circum- stances, might be sent for a few weeks to rusticate, and get nourishing diet, they would be restored to their families in sound health, and able to undertake their labour. I am quite sure that such an institution as this would ultimately be a prodigious saving to the poor funds. 2659. Would not a friendly society meet that case 1 — In regard to these friendly societies, my attention was called to them a few years ago. I found that there were a number of Rov. Or Mi;ir. 15 March 18^3. 152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Kraniinatioiis. those Societies called j'early societies. From the inquiries I made into the mode in which they were conducted, it didnotappear to me that they were well managed. In many instances, really they were little more than plans and schemes got up by those persons who keep public houses ; and a great deal of drinking went on while the business was transacting ; and sometimes the treasurer, after a few months, walked off with the funds and forgot to return. Much mischief has been done in this way. Three or four years ago, it struck me to try an experiment, with the view of getting the labouring class of people to be a little more provident. The savings-banks will not take less than one shilling. It requires but little intercourse with the poor, to observe that the temptation to the foolish spending of money lies between the shilling and the threepence. When it gets the length of a shilling, there is a tendency to save. I issued a small printed circular, saying that I would meet such class of persons in my parish every Monday evening, in one of the schoolrooms; and that I would take from them 2d. a week ; and set it aside to form a fund, out of which, if they fell sick, they should get aliment, and take what deposits they could give. I intimated that 1 would try the experiment one year, and tell them the result. A good number, who fell sick in the course of the year, received support from the sick fund ; and when we met at the end of the year, notwithstanding the number that had received support, I had a surplus of 6s. to give to each member, accumulated from the twopences ; and 1 found to my surprise, that I had collected 318/. besides. I mentioned the experiment and the result to a good many of my brethren, with the view of making them try the experiment ; and there is one now going on in Leith. I had never more contributors than 218. 1 repeated it the second year, and it turned out better; the third year it was still better; and what was exceedingly gratifying, I found individuals who at first contributed only 6d., increased the contribution to 8d., then Is., and onwards to 2s. I formed a third plan, which was, that of extra- ordinary contributions ; and of the members there are now 25 who contribute 1/. 5s. per week. 26G0. Are these all heads of families.'' — Not all. They are composed of labourers, ser- vants, and tradespeople of different descriptions — seamstresses, and ajjprentices. 2G61. Do well regulated friendly societies not meet that case ? — Not entirely. In the parochial management there is a considerable benefit arising from kirk-sessions taking up such plans as this. The friendly societies are always conducted with expense, and that expense comes out of the profits. In the plan such as I have described, the members have no expense to pay. The influence also is beneficial on their minds, from their seeing that the ministers and kirk-session are promoting their temporal concerns, as well as their .spiritual and moral interests. 2662. There is a difference between the state of the poor in the Greyfriars' Church and St Stephen's ?— Yes. 266-3. State the difference in regard to the houses, and so on ? — When I mention that my parish stands in the heart of the New Town, it will at once be understood that the con- dition of the poor classes in it is not so bad as the condition of the poor in Greyfriars. There may be from 2500 to 2800 persons in St Stephen's, who are of the labouring classes ; and many of whom are frequently on the brink of destitution, or have great difficulty in sustaining themselves. I describe the larger portion of them as in this condition. In the Old Town parish they are a'great deal worse ; many of them inhabit those places which were never intended to be any better than cellars. I do not otherwise, however, know much difference between the lowest description of the paupers in the north and those in the south parish. 2664. A number of this class are Irish ; would you say that the greater number have no dwellings of their own, but are lodgers ? — Speaking of Greyfriars', yes. They are either lodgers in such a house as I described, or have small rooms let to them. 2665. Have you found examples of Irish families of that description improving their condition in consequence of their coming into juxtaposition with the better classes ? — No. 2666. You stated that the outdoor relief of the charity workhouse was inadequate ; do you think this is pretty well supplemented by private charity ? — Much comes from public begging. 26G7. Or from other institutions ? — No. 2668. From the Destitute Sick Society? — It takes up peculiar cases. There is a society called the Strangers' Friend Society, which gives out a small assistance to persons in des- titution recently come to town. 2669. You left Glasgow in 1822 ?— Yes. 2670. How long had the St John's system been set agoing before then ? -—I do not know exactly. 2671. Your observation of the working of that system was but for a very short period ? — Not long. 2672. You are not aware of the fact, that a number of poor from other districts came into that parish when the system was going on .'' — I had no means of knowing that. 2673. You have a school in your parish 1 — Yes, there is an infant school ; and when the children arrive at a certain age, they are drafted into the two others, — one for boys and the other for girls. About 600 children altogether are educated. 2674. What is the influence which these schools exert on the general condition of the jiarents? — The most blessed influence in turning them from bad to good habits. The iteneficial effects of infant schools when properly conducted, is strikingly exemplified in my parish. The effect on the children has a reflex influence on the parents. 2675. You have also e.stablished a working society in your parish ? — Yes, I mention this as an exceedingly interesting and successful experiment. Soon after I came to the parish, POOR LAW INQUIRY COMmSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 153 I had frequent visits from females in the parish, — women living alone who maintained them- Exauiiuatioiis. selves by begging. It occurred to me that something ought to be done to employ them. . A little pecuniary aid from the benevolent, I thought, might be well turned to that pur- j^ jtiaich ia4:i. pose. I got associated together a good many of the active ladies of my congregation, and vee raised 80^. This sum the committee expended in purchasing materials for those women to make up into clothing. The society has been in existence now for six years ; and on an average we have kept employed weekly in making clothes, — female clothes, and children's clothes, and men's shirts, about 120 of these women. Then these clothes are accumulated and sold. There is a regular sale every week, which brings 5/. a week. Then there are two general sales in the year, the proceeds of which, on an average, may be about 100/. That is returned into the treasury. But to keep the machinery agoing, it is necessary to have a subscription every year, which amounts to 70/. or 80/. It is not a great deal the workers get, but it forms an item in the way of supporting them. Independently of that, however, the influence is beneficial on those females themselves. Instead of doing what they formerly did, gadding about, and making an intemperate use of spirituous liquor, they are employed in their own houses. They come once a week with their work to the com- mittee of ladies. That surveillance itself has a beneficial efi\jct. There is also introduced a sort of petite morals, — the work, for instance, is not received but with a reprimand if it be brought in dirty. This entails on them the necessity of cleanliness. There are also small religious tracts which they receive along with the work, and the ladies examine the women to ascertain if they have made use of them. 2676. The principle is, that you gave them a larger sum for the work done than they would receive from a slop merchant ? — Yes. 2677. What is the population of the parish ?— G700. 2678. Have you the means of knowing the persons in the parish who receive allowance from the charity workhouse ? — No. 2679. You cannot tell the amount of money expended by the charity workhouse on the poor of your parish 1 — No, I never burdened my mind with it, having nothing to do with it. 2680. You mentioned that there was a considerable number on the verge of sinking into poverty ; was that sinking prevented by the operation of the sickness fund to which you alluded I — I did not examine into that particularly ; but in regard to the eff"ect you allude to, it is most reasonable to suppose that it should be the consequence of it. 2681. In the case of the individual sent out from the infirmary as convalescent, but not so far recovered as to resume his labour, would such a case as that have been taken up by your sickness fund 1 — Scarcely. He being pronounced convalescent. 2682. You mentioned another case of a man coming from the country in full health, and being brought down by sickness, he and his family were cast into the worst state of pauperism, — if the distinction to which you adverted, between the godly and the careless were in operation, would not the source of the careless poor be cut off in time, and the parochial system continue assistance ? — Yes. 2683. And you mean to say, that though in the present state of Edinburgh it would not be possible to return to the original parochial system, yet, by the introduction of the plan proposed by you, you would be approaching to that system, and ultimately might attain to it ? — It is the commencement of a good thing; and should be advanced as far as practicable. 2684. You do not mention any time when it would be necessary to dispense with com- pulsory assessment.'' — If you were to throw the poor on voluntary contributions, it would be burdening those alone who go to church, and who are disposed to give ; besides, I would doubt altogether the reasonableness or propriety of leaving our poor entirely to the tender mercies of those who have the means to give. Another thing that weighs much on my mind arising ft-om the artificial circumstances of those who are in towns, is this, — that the wealthier part of the people fly from those districts in which the poor are resident as if from a plague. All the wealthy are concentrated in one part of the city, and the poor are left in another. How relieve these but by a general fund and poor law ? 2685. Supposing the poor of a parish were divided into two classes, the godly and the less worthy, do you not think that that might produce a prejudicial effect on the latter class, and sink them still deeper in point of religious and moral feeling ? — It does not occur to me that such would be the result under a kindly and vigorous superin- tendence of pastor and elders. I should be sorry to see anything done that would look like an attempt to throw out a sort of bmiiis for people to make a pretence of religion. When I say godly, I take it in a large sense, — not only regularly church-going people, but all those whom the minister and elders have reason to suppose are well disposed, virtuous people. There ought to be in the giving of aliment to the necessitous, a distinction drawn between those who are virtuous and those who have brought on their poverty by their own vices. I am always supposing that along with pecuniary support afforded to the poor, there is going forward a vigorous superintendence under faithful management, and under moral and religious means, for the elevation of the character of the poor. 2686. In addition to what you have stated, is there anything else that occurs to you srhich you would wish to suggest to the Commission ? — No, it is a wide subject, a magnum : and one does not know where to close it. 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. MrThog. Miller. 15 March 1843. M?- Thomas Miller, Examined : — 2687. You are treasurer for the relief of the unemployed operatives?—! am secretary, 2688 How Ion"- have you been acting as secretary ?— Smce the 20th October last._ 2689. Have yoS the charge of distributing the fonds ?— Not the charge of distnbutmg the funds. The men are admitted by a committee, called the admission conmuttee. I have brought some books and papers to lay before you, to show the mode m which they are admitted. I have here a schedule, entitled « Schedule for Honest and Industnous Lnemployed Irades- meu and Labourers, applying for Employment." It is divided into a number of columns, at the head of each of which there are queries, which they must answer in the respective columns. They are " Name, Age, Native of; How many years resident m toAvn ; 1 lace ot abode ; Length of residence there ; Number of chUdren above ten ; Number of children under ten; Occupation, Weekly average, Amount of earnings when last employed ; WeeUy amount of wife's earnings; Weekly amount of children's cammgs when last employed; Weekly amount of children's earnings at present ; Supply from other resources must be distinctly stated ; Signature of last employer, certifying amount of weekly wages, and how long idle ; State of family as to health." , ^ . . „ . ^. , , , 26<)0. Have you made any analysis of the description of persons?— les, we have a book which I have here. Each man applying to the committee gets one of the schedules to be fiUcd up by him. After it has been returned to the admission committee, there are six or eic^ht men who have been selected from the workmen themselves— men of the best character we could find, and tmstworthy— as visitors. The schedule is given to two of these men, and they eo to the house of the individual applying, to ascertain the correctness or incorrect- ness of the statements in the schedide. After this has been done, the men applymg come individuaUy before the admission committee. The schedule is produced, and the commit- tee ask any questions they consider necessary, and he is either then admitted on the roU or rejected. If he be admitted, he is put to work in the Meadows. This book contams a coi)y of the schedules certified by the visitors. , ., , , ^ t, . .i. 2691. How often does this committee meet?— Almost daily they have met; but they are intended to meet at intervals of two or tlu-ee days. _ 2692 What is the nimibcr now on your roll?— The number receiving pay yesterday amounted to 884 ; 79 of these, lOd. a day ; 30, 9d. ; 524, 8d. ; and 250, 6d. a day. _ 2693 Do any of them get parochial relief?— No man is admitted unless he has resided three years within the bounds of police ; and not one of them is entitled to parochial reliet. 2694. You make no distinction of country?— None whatever. , 2695 Have you many Irish among them ?— Yes. You are aware that application was made to o-ovemment to liave some work done in the Queen's Park ; and for the carrying on of wluch^work, we send men down to Mr Nixon. He writes that he wants the names, and addresses, and former occupations, of 200 of the best labourers, in order that a selection may be made from them for the work in the Queen's Park. Two lists are made out with a run- nino- number on the margin. One list is sent to Mr Nkon. The men carry down with them a card with a con-esponding number, which card is signed by me. ^ hen tliey go down to Holyrood, they are drawn up in rank. The contractors go along the Ime, and pick out Irom the men the best for their purpose. In the Ust of 200 sent down, there were 112 Scotchmen, _ 82 Irishmen, and 6 EngHshmen. It so happens that the contractors have almost always chosen the Irishmen, as the best labourers, and the Scotchmen complain of it bitterly. 2696 Have aU these men been residing within the bounds of the pohce tor three years i —The whole of them ; not one of them, so fiir as we know, less than three years. The com- mittee, however, may be imposed on ; but great care is taken to ascertain the fact. 2697. You can send in a weekly list of the numbers from the beginning?—! can, and shall send it in. I can give you a list of the number of men who have received pay from the beginning; but there are always more men on the roU than receive pay; and they go away in tens and twenties to get employment elsewhere. 2698. We want to get the number on pay from the commencement .-'-1 can give you a daily list. [To be sent in.] Here is a copy of the regidations under which they work :— 1 In order that the workmen employed in the Meadows, and others who receive their wao^'es from the fands collected for the relief of the honest and mdustnous unemployed tradesmen and labourers, may have an opportunity of being present every morning at the hii-inff station for day labourers, the roll wiU not be called till half-i>ast six o clock. 2 "Workmen who arc not present to answer to their names, will not be admitted on the works for that day ; and if late more than once in the course of the week, theu- names will be stnick off the roll. , . . , i i x *„ 3. That the men shall work nine hours per day, viz. from seven to nme o clock— ten to twelve o'clock— and fi-om three to six o'clock. „ , ,, , , , n , -j » 4 That the men employed in breaking stones for the Meadow grounds shaU be paid at the rate of 3tl. per cubic yard— the stones to go through a two-inch rrng. They shaU receive 6d. each every evening; and on Friday each week, the balance for the work done. 5. The quarriers shall be paid at the rate of 9d. per day. 6. AU other descriptions of work shall be paid at the rate of 6d. per day for each man. 7 Should any of the stone-breakers leave the works during the currency ot a week tor more profitable employment, they will be paid for any extra work they may have done. 8. Should any of the men leave the works without permission from the supermtendent, they shall not again be admitted. POOR LAW INQUIRY COJVBOSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 155 9. All improper language, riotous conduct, disobedience of orders, or idleness, shall be Examinations. punished by immediate dismissal from the works ; and, upon no consideration, shall these men again be admitted. _ _ ^S Mtrch^fsir 10. That the foregoing rules and regulations shall be read to the men every morning when the roU is called. By order of the Special Committee, Edinburgh, Wth March 1843. THOMAS MILLER, Secy. 2699. Do you find them well-conducted men? — Yes; remarkably well-conducted men. I beg leave to hand in a Memorial to Her Majesty's government by the Committee, praying them to take up tlie subject of emigration, dated 28th Febniary, prepared by Dr Alison. Mr Haining, the superintendent of police, states, that the conduct of the men, so far as he has seen, has been most exemplary. He says, that if the same number of men were congregated in England, there would have been frequent riots amongst them. 2700. What sort of men are those who get the lowest rate? — Men who are unmarried. The committee make a distinction. A man with a wife and foiu- children receives ten- pence a day ; able-bodied labourers receive eightpence a day ; the rest, sixpence a day. Those who receive sixpence are restricted, as far as possible, to the unmarried. These were the rates of pay before the regulations of 11th March were adopted. 2701. Are the Irish in general married, or not? — They are in general married men. 2702. In regard to the great number of them, how were they employed before they applied for work? — That may be answered from the schediJes. They are in general labourers, gardeners, brassfounders, shoemakers, maltmen, printers, &c., &c. 2703. Will you be kind enough to send us an analysis of the trades ? — Yes. [To be given in.] 2704. Are they sober men ? — In so far as wecan judge, they are most of them sober men. We have had very few complaints of drunkenness amongst them. 2705. "VVlien Mr Nixon requires such a number to be sent Aown to him, what do you do with the remainder ? — They are re-admitted to the works at the Meadows. The works are still continuing, but our funds are nearly exhausted. Two or three gentlemen signed a bill for 500L to keep them going, and which falls due on Saturday first, — it was signed in anti- cipation of the church collections. 2706. Are Nixon's men paid better than tlie men at the Meadows ? — The whole number of men employed by Mr Nixon does not exceed 210. They earn about fi-om 8s. to 10s. a week. The work is let out to contractors, and they work the men hard. I had a serious complaint from about thirty of the men who were sent down as efficient labourers, and selected by our superintendent. "When they went down, they were all rejected but three, on the ground that they had not been regidarly bred professed stone-breakers. They were capital efficient labourers, nearly all of them Irishmen. 2707. Are all the men who receive relief required to Avork? — Yes. "2708. How many hours a day ?— The names were called over before tliis at eight in the morning, and they wrought till dark, having an interval of an hour for dinner. They are always to be called now at half-past six in the morning, and to work till six at night, with an interval of one hour for breakfast and another for dinner. 2709. Have the visitors detected many cases of imposition ? — A number, I believe. They have rejected several, whom they did not think were deserving men, or who had not resided three years in Edinburgh. 2710. Do you make a distinction as to moral habits? — Yes. 2711. Are you aware of any circumstance that occvu-red to Mr Johnston, the butcher, who offered to employ a number of them ? — That has not come under my notice. I have a faint recollection of having heard something in regard to this, but that is all. When any men are wanted, we are glad to get quit of them. 2712. ^Vhat kind of work are they employed in ? — After they have passed the admission committee, they are put under the working committee, and are sent to break stones for Macadamizing the Meadow Walk. A number are employed as quarrymen ; others as laboiu-- ers in laying down the stones or preparing the road for the stones ; a nmnber are employed on a hand roller, which they puU along the Macadamized road. 2713. Are they employed on piece-work ? — Not hitherto, but they are now to be emploj'cd on piece-work. They commence to-morrow to break stones by piece-work. 2714. Are those with Nixon employed to break stones by piece-work ? — I believe they are to be employed in that way to-day. Fonnerly they were employed by contractors, who took the work with a condition to employ only these men. 2715. Do you know any instances in which they did not work to the satisfaction of those who employed them ? — I know of one instance, where a yoving man left his emjiloyment. I do not know whether he made application to come back to us ; but we ordered him not to be received if he came. 2716. Did they receive larger wages from the persons to whom they went?— Yes. 2717. What is the amovmt of a labourer's wages ? — From 8s. to 10s. a week. 2718. Are there paid agents to superintend your Mork? — Yes. Dislier receives 1^. a week ; another imder him 16s. ; and another 8s. a week. 2719. Are the superintendents on the work individuals who have themselves been on the fund ? — No, except the gangers of the squads. 2720. Is the inspection of the cases by the members themselves ? — ^Entirely by them- selves. 156 MINUTES OF E^aDENCE TAIvEN BEFORE THE Kxaiiiiiiatioiis. 2721. Is there no paid inspection except the payment to the visitors ? — Each visitor is M T^i ~~MM selected from the men. 1.". >[.iioii 18-n' 2722. But is there no paid inspection ?-T-None, except tlie payment which the operatives get wlio are inspectors. 2723. There was a relief fund previously to October? — Yes, but I was not secretary then. I have not the books, and I can give no account of it. 2724. Who was secretary ? — Mr Doud ; and Bailie Johnston was chairman. I may men- tion that there is a general committee, which is split up into a finance committee to raise funds ; there is the admission committee ; a committee to superintend the work ; and another special conimittee to suggest the kinds of work. 2725. Do you give relief to able-bodied women?- — No; >ve confine ourselves entirely to males. 2726. Can j-ou give us an amount of the funds subscribed ? — I am not sure that I can cor- rectly ; but I think it is 4000^. since the month of October. 2727. Have you reason to believe that persons prefer working on your fiind to finding ordinary work in the country ? — I have heard it stated that some of the idle ones preferred taking their 6d. a day fi'om us, to going to the country to work. 2728. But that will be changed by having piece-work? — Yes, we are now to resort to stoiie-breaking by piece-work. vVe consider that the men, not having been under very strict superintendence, have rather got into loose habits ; and one reason for putting them on piece-work is to bring them back to industrial habits, and not to overpay them, arid get them to leave us as soon as they can. Hitherto the work has been a very severe test of the des- titution of the men. It is heai-t-rendiug to see such able-bodied and excellent workmen labouring for such small gains. Mr Win Muir, Mr William Muir, Examined : — 2729. Were you agent or secretaiy to the committee for distributing the funds of the poor here, under the Queen's letter ? — I was secretary, 2730. Did you take the management of the fund in so far as it was distributed under the instructions of the committee ? — I was the instrument of sending it oiF to the different dis- tricts to which it was allotted. 2731. Was part of it appi-opriated to the unemployed poor in Edinbm-gh ? — Yes, it was handed over to the local committee. 2732. Had you occasion to know much of that class at the time ? — Not of Edinburgh more than any other part of the country ; for I was not concerned in the distribution, that being under the control of the local committee. 2738. Were you concerned in the immediate distribution of it anywhere ? — No. 2734. Can you inform us in regard to the amomit of the money received imder the Queen's letter from the different parishes in Scotland, down to 28th January 1843? — 3661^. 10s. 9d. 2735. Was that money under the chame of the committee in Edinburgh ? — Yes. 2736. Can you inform us in what difrerent places it was distributed, and the amount to each ? — I have here the schedule of the grants down to Febi-uary 6, 1843, the date of the last grant, containmg the names of the different places, the number of able-bodied men iinemployed, and the sums awarded to each place. [Given in.] The different grants made altogether were sixty-one. 2737. That is, from the funds collected in Scotland alone ? — Not entirely ; for in addition to the amount I have stated, there were grants amounting in all to 2100Z. remitted from the relief committee in London, — the manufacturers' relief committee, — which was also dis- tributed by our committee, making the two sums amount to 5761Z. 10s. 9d. 2738. Does the schedule you have given in include the money from the London com- mittee as well as from the different parishes in Scotland ? — Yes. Applications were made from diflf'erent districts in Scotland direct to London, and the money was sent down to meet those applications, 2739. Had your committee any discretion in the distribution of the sums gent from London ? — They took the discretion, excepting in those cases for which remittances were specially made by the London committee. 2740. Can you give us any information you have collected in regard to the labourers in different parts of Scotland ? — I think I can. I should say that the collections made, in the first place, by the difterent parishes in Scotland, were miserably inadequate to meet the exigencies that existed over the country ; but that arose from several causes. One cause was, that there had been a special collection in all parishes for behoof of Paisley ; another, that the larger towns, such as Glasgow, Greenock, Aberdeen, Dundee, and many others, formed local committees for themselves, and sent no part of tlieir collections to the central board ; and in Edinburgh, previous to the issue of the Queen's letter, a collection had been made in most of the chui'ches for the special benefit of the local poor. In other instances, the distress in particular districts was so great, that the parish authorities considered them- selves not warranted in sending money out of the parish, and they kept it to themselves. These are three of the leading causes ; and in regard to the dissenters, excepting in a few instances in Edinburgh, I am not aware that a single congregation contributed under the call of the Queen's letter. In one or two instances, I have letters containing discussions on the com laws, and stating their existence as an apology for not making the collection. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 157 274L Did you receive many applications from parialiea which you were opt %h]e tQ n}eet? — Sixty-one grants were made altogether. 2742. But did you receive apphcations which you were obliged to refuse P — There were two refused. 2743. From what parishes were these refused applications ? — There was the parish of Langholm, and one also fi-om Selkirk. 2744. On what gi-ounds were they refused ? — On the pounds that the situation of the parish was such as did not warrant the authorities in sendmg money thither, and that it w»8 not a manufactiuing population, but a parish that ought to meet its own distress. 2745. \^Tiat condition did your committee annex to grants made to particular parishes ? — . When application was made, a printed schedule was sent to be filled ujj ; and being re- turned, the committee sat on it, and awarded what they considered proper ; and each award made was sent on the condition of the following rules, entitled, " Regulations on which the Central Committee, Edinburgh, grant aid," being complied with : — " 1. That a local committee be organized in every district applying for relief. " 2. That the questions prepared by the committee for transmission to local committees be answered with the concurrence of the majority of the local committee, and signed by the chairman on their behalf, at a meeting duly convened for that purpose. "3. That, excepting in cases of extreme emergency, no aid be granted to any town or dis-. trict until replies to these inquiries have been received from the local committee, duly signed by the chairman. '' 4. That in towns no aid be granted to any district or ward of the to-mi, until a general relief committee has been organized for the whole town. " 5. That no aid be granted in any new case, unless local subscriptions have been raised for the rehef of the to^vn or district applying for assistance. " The committee ■«\'ill require that every local committee, at the period when the replies to the questions are transmitted by its chairman, shall state whether it will pledge itself to ad-< here to the following regulations in the administration of relief : — "A. That the relief fund shall be applicable to the relief of able-bodied work people desti- tute of employment, and their families, whether settled in the district applying for relief or not. - " B. That one-half at least of the relief shall be administered in kind. " C. That work shall be required in return for relief. " D. That the contracts made by the local committees for provisions necessary for relief in kind shall be made after advertisement for sealed tenders, and that the local com- mittee, upon being satisfied of the competency of the person making the offer, shall accept the lowest tender." 2746. Were you sent by the committee to Paisley ? — Yes, 2747. Did you make reports ? — ^Yes. 2748. Look at these, — are these the reports? — Yes. [Two reports, made by Mr Muir upon the state of Paisley, were here sho^vn to him.] 2749. Do these reports contain a full and con-ect report of what you saw ? — They do. 2750. Have you anything else to say in addition to what you have stated? — Two grants were made, at an early stage of the committee's operations, to Paisley. The grants to Paisley were made direct from London, after the two first, which were made from Edin- burgh. The two grants from Edinburgh amounted to 399?. 10s. The committee here had not Paisley under its control, fiirther than to assist the London committee. There was a propo- sition made by the London committee, that the central committee should take Paisley under their control ; but they considered it as a serious case, because, in the event of an outbreak, there would be serious responsibility attending it ; and they considered it enough to send the London committee information. That was the reason I was sent to make these reports. And if I miglit be allowed to give an opinion, I would say that I should not consider that the question as to an additional provision for the poor could at present be dispassionately considered, because Scotland, along with the continent and America, and indeed the most of Europe, has been stricken generally with commercial embarrassment. One view strikes me, in the event of anything being done for the poor, — one essential requisite would be a moral and religious education ; and with a view to the correction of their habits, and in looking forward to times of distress, that they should be educated so as to see the responsi- bility of their situation. This is more applicable to Scotland, In consequence of the facility of marriage which the law allows. Supposing government were to send down instructions to the General Assembly, with a view to the consideration and fi-aming of regulations for the more proper and equitable support of the poor in parishes, and if a committee were appointed of members of session, clergymen and heritors, for this purpose, and of a more complete suneillance over the operation of such regulations than at present exists, I think that the law as it stands, rightly administered, Is adequate to the ordinary exigencies of the country. In unusual times of distress, extraordinary contributions and collections could be made as heretofore ; and when these were not sufficient, some means for enforcing county assessments should be adopted. It seems desirable, that means of extraneous relief should not be easily got ; as the present distress, for example, has brought out a large mass of profligate people who would not be steady men at any period whatever. This is more particularly applicable to Edinbm-gh. There is not a more ignorant class of people almost anywhere than Is to be found among the lower walks in Edinbm'gh ; they are both Idly disposed and improvident in every respect. As regards the 1400 said to be out of employment in Edin- burgh, you might get 1000 or 1100 of them at any time In the year here. 2751. Do you know anything of the night asylum? — At the time when engaged in the Examinations. Mr Wm. Muir. 15 March 1843. h 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Exainiuatioiis. originating and commencement of that institution, I had occasion to see a good deal of the M w M ■ poorer classes. 15 March 1U43, 2752. You do not belicA-e that there is any particular distress in Edinburgh? — There is certainly additional distress in Edinburgh ; but not by any means to the extent represented. If there was not such an outcry in the country at large, and a facility of coming to Edin- burgh by night boats and railways, we would not have so many imemployed, many of whom come merely for the purpose of begging. 2753. There are 884 men on the relief roll ; you do not believe that the majority of these are industrious men ? — I think it doubtful. 2754. On what ground ? — It was repeatedly asked at the central committee, if the lists of these men had been properly examined and pxunficd. It Mas said they were ; but we never had any evidence of that. 2755. Did the central committee take no means to piu-ify the list ? — No ; they did not consider it to fall under their province. Lattci'ly the applications for relief were reftised. 2756. Do you know whether the manufactories had been out of employment ? — Yes, the Castle silk miUs have been stopped for the last six months, and they employed between 200 and 300 people. 2757. Any others that you know of? — There ai'e a good many brassfounders out of em- ployment, and people of that class, I believe. 2758. To what do you impute the want of employment at present? — So far as my expe- rience goes, at any time whatever there will be found a large class of people who have no regular trade, and apparently no visible means of subsistence from employment. They fre- quently go about the country selling tliing^s, and come back again, and when they are in Want, they apply to the Strangers' Friend Society, and the Destitute Sick Society, or where- ever they can get anything. I am quite satisfied that a great portion of those people who first apphed to the town-council, are persons who came forward in consequence of the general outcry in the country, and were not thrown out of employment. 2759. In what respect was the scrutiny of cases defective? — We never got evidence of a scrutiny being made at all, — no evidence of a scrutiny by the central committee. 2760. Before any individual is admitted on the relief list, is there not a scrutiny of his case ? — They said that there was, and I dare say there was some scrutiny, but I have reason to believe that the scrutiny was loose and imperfect. 2761. Do you think that a great many of those persons asking relief were persons generally out of employment on account of idle habits ? — They might have no steady employmeBt, but if sufficient exertions had been made, they might have maintained themselves in the same way as they had been doing for many j^ears before. 2762. Have you occasion to know from observation the state of the unemployed receiving relief in any other towns in Scotland ? — Yes, I have had occasion to know something, espe- cially of Paisley. The views that occurred to me there are fuUy stated in the reports. There was a great deal apparently to be found faidt with at the beginning of the system, — they appeared to have commenced giving reUef too early. Then the poUtical opinions of some of the committee— the chief magistrate and the Rev. Mr Brewster — were injurious. They declaimed in public meetings, and in every variety of w-ay, on the people's i-ight to support ; the system of eleemosynary aid was not discouraged, but the reverse ; and when no ordinary funds could meet the number applying, no adequate exertions were made to keep them back, or to induce them to leave town, or to provide elsewhere for themselves. It was stated by the provost to myself, that government was bound to support them, and that they must be supported. 2763. In regard to the relief list in Edinburgh, do you know any individual cases of im- position ? — When the first application was made to the town-council by a number of the - men, who had met on the Cidton Hill, it was not credited by the town that there were so many idle men. They referred the matter to the presbytery, who were not satisfied that there was a necessity for a collection. They fonned a committee, and the result was, that a collection was resolved upon ; but it was appointed to be given to the Sti-angers' Friend Society and the Night Asylum. In the Strangers' Friend Society a list was produced, made up by the unemployed workmen themselves. After it was allocated to the different mem- bers of committee, and a scrutiny made, there were found, in numerous instances, eases of imposture ; — there were parties who were not found at aU, whose names were on the list. 2764. After they were admitted on the list, can you point out many individual cases of imposition ? — It was always considered that the list was not properly pm-lfied ; although the committee asked for information, it was not given in any authentic form. 2765. But, from your individual knowledge, are you acquainted with cases? — ^No. I have a general impression that there was not a sufficient scrutiny ; that is, that although the individuals might have a three years' residence, they, nevertheless, might not be such as shoidd have been admitted on the relief list. 2766. Are you of ojiinion that within the last seven or eight years, if similar funds had been collected for the poor, and an opportunity was given to parties to claim these funds in the same way as last season, that a great many would have come forward at any time ? — Yes ; I am of opinion that, on any day of the year, it would be sufficient to bring out a large mass of people in Edinburgh. So it was in regard to the Pi-ince of Wales' Fund, to an ex- tent that the strongest advocates for assisting the poor were quite alarmed at it. 2767. Had there not been funds for the relief of the unemj)loyed poor in Edinburgh pre- viously to October ? — Not that I am aware of particularly. And, in connexion, allow me to say, that I am far from thinking that a great portion of the distress among the poor aidaea POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 159 from mere destitution. It ought to be an essential part of their case, that they be better educated than they now are. No class of cases are of more frequent occiurence than women seeking their husbands who have left them, — deserted females with young children, and often infants, in their arms. The manner of contracting marriages is a proof of the disso- luteness that occurs from ignorance. Unless a man is taught the obligations he owes to his family, and what is incumbent on liim when he enters on the marriage state, — to know the duties required of him in society in respect of f/iovident industry and foresight, — unless something of that kind be done, I should say that any direct provision by money for the support of the poor, would be quite inadequate. What I have seen in Paisley is a strong proof of that. I consider it to be the most dissolute and ignorant community in Scotland, without exception. There was a manufacturer's committee in Paisley, which raised 9000^. for providing work for weavers, wliich was done to a considerable extent. It was found, according to a report by the convener, that a large number of those offered employment would not take it ; they preferred taking aid from the soup-kitchen. Plans were resorted to by them to get reUef from the committee rather than work. 27G8. Do you think that the trades' unions have had any influence in causing them to refuse the work offered them — unions for keeping up the rate of wages ? — That may perhapa apply to some extent in the coal and mining districts, but not in Paisley, nor in Glasgow, among the manufacturing population. 2769. Are you not aware what took place four or five years ago, among the cotton spin- ners ? — I am aware of that, but there is nothing of that kind at the present time among the manufacturing population. 2770. What would be the effect of setting the unemployed to work by piece-work, in place of day's wages ? — I do not see any other way of emjiloying them advantageously, except by piece-work. 2771. You are aware that they have not hitherto been employed on piece-work ? — I under- stand that they are now to be so employed. There was an unfortunate system carried on in Paisley for a long time, of exacting from them no work at aU. Examitiationi. Mr Win. Muir. IS March IG'IS. SCHEDULE of GRANTS of MONEY made by Central Committee, Edinburgh. Date of Names of Places. Number of able-bodied Sums Award. Unemployed. awarded. 1842. July 7. 1. Paisley, ... first grant, • •• £200 2. Edinburgh, do. ... 100 ... 18. 3. Edinburgh,... second grant, (additional) ... 200 ... 25. 4. Greenock, ... first grant, 450 157 10 5. Galston, ... do. 86 30 2 6. Paisley, ... second grant, 570 199 10 7. Maybole, ... first grant, 70 24 10 8. Edinburgh, third grant, 765 267 15 9. Balfron, ... fiirst grant, 80 28 10. Auchtermuchty, do. 130 45 10 11. Lanark, ... do. 366 128 2 12. Stewarton, ... do. 105 36 15 13. Whitburn, ... do. 77 26 19 14. Bathgate, ... do. 185 64 15 15. Denny, ... do. 70 24 10 16. Bonhill, ... do. 77 26 19 Aug. 8. 17. * Hamilton, do. 125 87 10 * In the cases marked from 17 to 25 inclusive, the Committee 63 proceeded on the principle of doubling tlie sums awarded 56 in proportion to the number of able-bodied unemployed, in 28 respect of awarding to the former applicants, a second sura of the same amount as that already received by them. 35 18. Cupar-Fife, do. 90 128 16 19. Irvine, ... do. 80 .28 20. Markinch, ... do. 40 88 18 21. Benholme, Bervie, do. 50 19 8 22. Aberdeen, ... do. 184 23. Alloa, ... do. 45 24. Lesmahagow, do. 127 25. Abbotshall,... do. 28 ... ... 26. Greenock, second award, 450 157 10 27. Galston, second grant, 86 30 2 28. Maybole, ... do. 70 24 10 29. Edinburgh, foiui;h grant, 765 267 15 ... ... 30. Balfron, second grant, 80 28 31. Auchtermuchty, do. 130 45 10 32. Lanark, ... do. 366 Carry over. 128 2 £2776 18 160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFOEE THE Exaniin&tions. Mr AVui. Muir. 13 March 184S. SCHEDULE of GRANTS of MONEY, &c.,— continued. Date of Award. 1842. Aug. 8. ... 15. ... 23. ... 24. Sep. 16. Oct. "3. ... 18. Nov. 16. ... 23. ... 28. Dec. 13. ... 24. 1843. Jan. 2. ... 26. Feb. 26. Names of Places. 33. Stewarton, 34. Whitburn, 35. Bathgate, 36. Denny, 37. • Bonhill, second grant, do. do. do. do. Brought over. No new award made to Paisley of this date, for the reason that two grants had already been made to that town, and it having been stated to the meeting at which last award was made, by Mr Robertson, that the London Committee had agreed to make certain supplies to Paisley, (considered by the Committee to be adequate), during the four subse- quent weeks. 37. 38. 39. 40. 41. 42. 43. 44. 45. 46. 47. 48. 49. 50. 51. 52. Kilmarnock, first grant, Torrybum, do. collections from that district returned, Ardrossan, do. 19/. 128. and collection 11 Inveresk, do. collection returned, Edinburgh, fifth grant, AVest Kilbride, first grant, Dysart, ... do. Greenock, . . . third grant, Edinburgh, sixth grant, Edinburjjh, seventh grant, eighth grant, first grant, fourth grant, second grant, , first grant, do. -I Edinburgh, Johnstone, Greenock, Johnstone, Kilsyth, ... Dunfermline, Lerwick, do. 53 54, 55. 56. 57. 58. 59. 60. 61. Johnstone, fourth grant. Parish of Monqhitter, (Turiff) Kilbarchan, first award, .., Johnstone, ... third award, ... Kilbarchan, second award, ... Bridge of Weir, first award, . . , Greenock, fifth award, Dumbarton, first grant, Number of able-bodied Uaemployed. 105 77 185 70 77 £2776 18 36 15 26 19 64 15 24 10 26 19 330 115 10 11 19 28 26 12 10 4 394 137 18 65 45 10 113 40 535 187 5 766 268 2 800 280 900 315 General award of 50 679 237 13 General award of 100 ... ... 70 Do. in the meantime I 100 > but 173/. 12s. voted, General grant, 35 Collection returned, 3 3 180 63 General, 20 • • • 15 ... 13 ■ ■ ■ 200 (71) ... 25 20 Snms awarded. " CIRCULAR. " Queries. "1. Is there a parochial assessment for the poor in this parish ; and if so, what is its annual amount? " 2. How many regular paupers are there on the poor's list ? " 3. Of the persons now applying for relief, or on the relief list, how many are able-bodied unemployed ? And of these how many have been ascertained to have an industrial settle- ment in the parish ? " 4. Is there any relief committee consti- tuted ? And if 80, state their names. " 5. Has a soup-kitchen been established, and how long ? " 6. Has any and what work been exacted from the recipients of relief? " 7. What amount of voluntary local col- lections has been made, and how have these been applied?" " Answers. <( • * Answers to queries to be subscribed by Chairman of Relief Committee, if tfiere be such ; if not, by some other official person." POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. IGl Mr Hwi. Chambers, one of the Editors and Proprietors of Chambers' Journal, Examined: — 2772. You arc the author of various works connected with the education of the people, and also of a .rournal which has a large circidation in Scotland ? — ^Yes, along with my brother. 2773. You have paid considerable attention to the condition of the poor? — Yes, both my brother and myself. 2774. Have you been in the habit of visiting the dwellings of the poor in Edinburgh ? — Now and then I have gone among them, sometimes from the interest I took in their condi- tion ; and at other times- visiting persons connected with our own establLshment. 277."). Have you been in, many ])arts of the country with a view to considering the condi- tion of the poor ? — No, not with that object. 2776. In regard to Edinburgh, have you formed any views as to the management of the poor ? — I consider that there is an. alanning amount of destitution and misery of the most frightful kind in Edinburgh. 2777. But as connected with the legal management of the poor?- — I know nothing of the mechanism of the system as it exists, because I have n& reason to connect myself with it. I merely speak of what I have seen of the people. 277iS. Do you kuow many of those \\ho are in receipt of parochial relief? — No. 2779. Have you any views to suggest in regard to the alteration of the law? — I have long made up my mind that the present system is altogether odious and disgi-acefid to the age, and increasing the mischief daily to an enormous magnitude. 2780. In what respect ? — One grand mischief is, that a general meagre system of adminis- tration in rural districts has the effect of filling all the large to«ns with the weedings of the CO intry. The poor imifoi'mly flock to large towns ^^•llere there is a chance of getting some- thirg, and that fills the streets and lanes with the most disorderly, wTetched, and miserable beings. 2781. Do they come in search of work ? — Professedly they come for that at first. They find no means of existence at home, and betake themselves to the large towns. It will be found in many instances that they have in town friends and relations, — persons from whom they can get a little at first. None but the clever can be employed, consequently there is a great debris continually going to the bottom of the scale. 2782. How would you propose to remedy that ?^ — By compulsory assessment on the coun- try parishes. I can see no other mode than that, — by increasing the amount of relief given out of the funds of the parish by a jiulicious mode of atlminlsti-atlon, so as to prevent us here from being loaded with those persons. 2783. Within your knowledge, are you acquainted with cases of individuals who have come from the country with such motives ? — Yes, I know many poor persons who have ap- plied to ourselves for work. 2784. Who have assigned that for the reason ? — No, but I know that they could have no other reason for it. They are natives of the county from which I came myself; of course they cling to us a little. 278.5. WHiat county? — Peeblesshire. They ask employment from U8,.having a large print- ing establishment ; and we give it when we can. 2786. Arc the parishes in Peebles assessed or unassessed? — I believe there Is some little assessment In some of the parishes in Peeblesshu-e ; but whatever way it is, the fimds are meagre, and form no inducement for them to remain ia tlie country. In the first instance, they come here to seek -svork professedly, not with a view of going on the poor's funds. 2787. How many have come to jou in the way you describe ? — Vi^c have been In business from ten to twelve years, and I think two or three come to us annually. 2788. Do they come to you direct from the country, or may they have been some time in- Edinburgh ? — Sometimes the one and sometimes the other. 2789. Have you Inquired particularly into their reasons or motives for coming ? — Generally,. I ask what they are about. % 2790. But do you know if they come with the view of receiving support from the charity t workhouse ?— No, I did not ask them ; but I imagined that they did not,^ — as fl-om their- * appearances they were not paupers. f, 279 L Have you taken means to ascertain that they came from your part of the country? — I recognized them from old recollections. 2792. What may be the general age of such persons? — Between twenty and thirty year* [oi age, — some younger. 2793. Then they were not previously in such circumstances as to apply to the parish for relief? — No, I do not think it. In any Instance. 2794. If there had been a legal provision for them in tlie country, do you think they would jliot have come to Edinburgh in search of work ? — I cannot answer that question. ^ 2795. Supposing they had got employment In the country, — In the parishes from which they came, do you think that the existence of the poor's fimds would weigh with them in* coming to Edinburgh for employment, and to make out a settlement? — It is ])robablc that some of them might ; but there is a disinclination to rely on the poor's funds. They try e^x■ry reasonable way to get employment where they reside, or go elsewhere with the same vie\-.-. 2796. Then it is not their desire to get relief from the poor's funds In Edinburgh that brings them here ? — Not the class I speak of. I am fidly persuaded tliat vast numbers- came Edinburgh without being actuated by such, motives.. 2797. Do you think the demand for work-people in the great towns would be su])i)lied without their coming Into the towns from the counti-y ? — I think the continual supply of ExainiiuitioiiN. MrW. Chambers. 15 Marcli 184.^. i 162 IkHNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiiiiiiatiun$. Mi-AV. Chambers. 15 March 1843. work-people from the countiy has the effect of keeping down Avages. "Whether Edinburgh could supply itself with work-people, I cannot say. 2798. Do you think it would be advisable to prevent them from coming from the country into the towns ? — No. 2799. Would it be advisable to alter the law of settlement? — I thiidi so. The able poor ■who come here get domiciled pretty easily. Three years' residence gives them a legal claim on the pai-ish funds ; and I certainly think it should be altered. 2800. "What alteration woidd you make ? — I think the residence should be extended to six or seven years, — industrial residence, — that would be a reasonable length of time. I thirdi that if some means could be adopted for doing away with the system of i>aroehial boun- daries, it would save a great deal of trouble. By enlarging the districts to a large extent, it would be a matter of unimportance whether the poor resided here or twenty miles distant. 2801. You would still have districts for settlement, — you would have it in districts and not in parishes ? — Certainly in bounds much larger than the present small parishes. 2802. Supposing there was an alteration in the present law of settlement, how would that effect the young men of from twenty to thirty years of age, would it render them less disposed to come to Edinburgh to obtain a liveliliood ? — It might affect some abject per- Bons ; but the young Mould not be affected by it. 1 do not think that any working man would be induced to remain in his own place out of dread of getting a settlement else- where. 2803. The alteration in the law would not affect the persons who applied individually to you ? — No, I do not think it. 2804. Are you acquainted with the condition of the able-bodied ? — I can speak chiefly in regard to my own men. 2805. Do you think it would be desirable to make the alteration in the law in regard to that class as objects of parochial relief? — I certainly think it is a harsh thing that they should starve. They should have some means of getting subsistence to a certain extent in periods of destitution, something to keep them from being beggars or vagrants. 2806. How woidd you projjose to do so as not to cause improvidence ? — I do not see any other plan than adopting the workhouse system. It would fomi no temptation, but merely keep them from starvation. 2807. You would recommend that the allowance should be low ? — It shoidd be something reasonable, something that would keep them from starvation. 2808. In regard to the aged poor and widows with children, do you think the low rates of allowance have a good effect on their character ? — There are a great number of them in WTetched circumstances in Edinburgh. 2809. Does the low i-ate of allowance tend to raise their character? — I think that the present small rate of allowance, or no allowance, must have a serious effect in deteriorating their cu'cumstances and feelings, and producing vast wretchedness and misery. 2-810. In regard to this class of persons, would you contemplate alterations, so as to give them a larger allowance ? — Their case demands the most pity of any, because they are generally in such circumstances as not to be able to move about for work. Certainly they should be provided for more humanely and benevolently than they are at present. 2811. How would you accomjilish this? — It might be done by taking them into the workhouse. I should think that preferable to outdoor relief, unless it was so well managed as not to be abused. The children of these poor people are generally left without educa- tion, and without any body to take care of them. They prowl about the streets, and become those beings whom we see begging, and they fcjrm the elements of those who fill our prisons, and occupy our courts of justice. If there could be any plan devised by which these poor children could be taken off the streets, educated, and supported in an humble way, an enonnous benefit woidd be conferred on society. 2812. Will you state the circumstances in the parochial management of country parishes which leads you to tliink tliat an undue proportion of persons from tvi'enty to thirty, and under that age, come into town ? — I am not so versed in the lives of those to whom you allude, as to know their precise motives for coming here, or what they would do if a better system of poor laws existed in the country ; but my impression is, that they first come to seek work, and having degenerated they became paupers. 2813. Do you think that the object of a person of thirty years of age, in coming here to work, woidd be to make a settlement ? — ^I do not think that that would enter into the con- sideration of people able to do anything. 2814. Do you think there are many of that class who come to get a settlement ? — "Wliether they do or do not, there is that particular result. I believe there is an impression on the minds of many that there is something to be got here. They flock to the town ; they may get employment here ; they may get their children into employment, and after all sink down and come to begging. 2815. Have you any idea of the average number of years they may live in town before coming on the poor's roll ? — No. 2816. You are aware that there is a depression in manufactures. Has that depression affected all the different trades, printing, and other trades ? — It has affected some trades, and among others it has affected printing. 2817. Are any of your men out of employment ? — None of our own ; but we have been applied to frequently by compositors out of employment ; and some of them have come about with subscription papers for relief. A good many of them are out of work at present. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMJkllSSION FOR SCOTL^VND. 163 Mr Fraser, Missionary, Examined : — 2818. You are connected with the Old Men's Indigent Society ? — I am. I am missionary for that society. 2819. You have in this way an opportunity of seeing the state of the old men in Edin- burgh ? — Yes. 2820. Is there much indigence among them ? — A very great deal. 2821. Are they generally men who have resided long in Edinburgh, or come recently to it ? — They have been generally long in Edinburgh. 2822. Are any of them receiving parochial aid ? — I believe most of them. 2823. TeU us the nature of the society, the amount of its funds, and the relief it gives ? — It is formed by individuals who contribute so much annually for indigent old men in the c\tj. The subscription money is 1^., and they give to each individual on the list Is. in the week, and in a few instances Is. 6d. 2824. Are these persons from the allowance they get from your society and elsewhere, enabled to live in any kind of comfort ? — Not one of them, notwithstanding the aid received from this society or the parish. With this fiUowance they are not comfortable, and can- not be. 2825. Are their dwellings very poor? — Yes, very poor. 2826. A great want of furniture ?— A great want. 2827. What are their habits ? — Temperate. I speak of those with whom I am ac- quainted. 2828. IVliat qualifies a man to receive aid from your society ? — He must be beyond sixty years of age, and of good moral character. 2829. Then the aid they receive from the different sources is quite insufficient to main- tain them in anything like comfort ? — Quite insufficient. 2830. Have several of them families depending on them? — Some few have. 2831. Have any of them families that render them a little aid ? — There may be a few instances of this. For instance, a son or a daughter may pay the rent of the parents, but in very rare instances. 2832. Are you acquainted with the state of the poor generally in Edinbrn-gh ? — Not farther than by being in the habit of going through Edinburgh for the last fifteen or sixteen years, and entering into the houses of the poor ; and I think the destitution throughout exceedingly great. 2833. To what cause would you attribute that destitution ? — A great deal of it arises from intemperate habits, but a good deal of it arises from widows being left with small famihes, and husbands who have deserted their wives ; and a great deal or it from sickness and infirmities, from blindness, old age, and so forth. 2834. Do you think that the approach to destitution might in many instances be prevented if greater care were paid to the labouring classes who have fallen into sickness ? — No doubt if they had been cared for when in sickness they might not have fallen into a state of destitution. That destitution is in many cases most dreadfid in Edinburgh. 2835. How many receive aid fcom your society at present? — 110. 2836. What is your employment ? — I visit and report. We have a monthly meeting. 2837. Do you communicate religious instruction to them ? — Yes. 2838. What is the sum annually expended generally ? — I do not distribute any monies ; the society distribute themselves. There is a monthly appointment of visitors from the society, who distribute the money to those on the list. 2839. Do you think the destitution in Edinburgh has increased of late years ? I think it has. 2840. More than in proportion to the increase of the population ? — I do not know really. 2841. Have you anything to suggest generally in regard to the improvement of the poor ? — I could not take it upon me to suggest anything to the Commission. Examinations. Mr Fraser. 15 March 1843. Thursday, \&th March 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Belhaven, James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD BELHAVEN IN THE CHAIR. Mr Alexander Macaulay, Examined : — 2842. You axe a town-councillor of Edinburgh ? — I am. 2843. You are also one of the chairmen of the committee appointed some two years ago, to Mr A. Macaulay. 16 March 1843. 104 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Ex!iminati(n:s. rcceivc funds under the QuecnV letter? — I am a nienilicr, but not eonvener of that coni- — — — mittee ; but I am convener of tlie work committee for the unemployed. That committee is 16 M-u.Ti'Ts^"^ appointed for the labour department. I Iiold a great many public situations, and my whole time Is devoted exclusively to public duties, particularly with reference to the poor. 2844. Have you had occasion yourself nuich to visit the dwellings of tlie poor ? — Five years ago I was convener of a committee for clothing a great number of the poor. There was a great deal of sickness. \ great deal of fever at the time, and as convener of that committee, it fell to my duty to attend pert^onally to the poor, and visit tlieir dwellings. 2845. Was that the first public occasion on which the state of the poor was brought under your notice ? — It was the first occasion on which I had a considoi-able charge ; but I am a manager of the workhouse, — and as it is generally known tlu'oughout the towTi that I take a veay considei-able interest in the poor, uiy- house is ei'owdcd with apjJicants from all quarters of the town. 284(). Have you long been a manager of the workhouse? — I cannot exactly recollect the date ; but I have been so for four or five years. I A\-as not a member of the admission com- inittee ; but I have been specially appointed to that duty, and acted for some time. 2847, With regard to the allowances, do you consider them sufficient ? — I consider them ji perfect insidt ; but I think it right to couple the observation w^th tliis statement. That I think an allowance ought on no occasion to be ever given, without work or without some- thing being taken in return. I disapprove of any allowance being given without something being given in return in the form of work ; and this I think in almost every instance could be .done, and would gladly be agreed to by the parties who require assistance, for I consider that in many instances it would be degrading and lowering the condition of the poor, if aid were afforded by giving them alms. 2848. With regard to those on the })ennanent list, would you require work ? — I would give this general answer .that after the most minute and deliberate consideration, I have come to the conclusion that in no one case ought alms to he given without work in retinni. :2849. Proportioned to the strength of the pai-ties ? — ^Proportioned -to the strength of the parties. And if you wUl allow me, I shall state the reason — when parties receive alms they are in a state of idleness, and S2)end the money in a very unprofitable manner. They get it for nothing, and they spend it unprofitably, — whereas, siq)pose they had to labour even while under a certain degree of sickness, this woidd amuse them, and to some extent employ them, and having earned the money they would spend it profitably. 2850. What kind of outdoor work would you propose to be done ? — It has been said, that taking the work of those who are not usually in the habit of working, would depress or lower the i-ate of wages of the regular tradesman. This, I most distinctly give it as my .opinion, is not founded on fact .; because it appears to me that it is only allowing those to contribute their labour who are thrown out of work, or otherwise reduced to poverty, — aljle- ;bodied persons, for instance, arrived at the age of sixty, when it is generally considered that they have a claim. (I have found pei'sons ot sixty as able as men at forty, and I think work -should be taken from them, and from woanen of the same age too) ; but when it is said that it is an injury generally to the working classes to take the labour of such persons, I would say that this is not the fact, for it is just bringing into play labour which would otherwise be lost. The employment of men in stone-breaking is said to lower wages, but so long as we have a road, a lane, or an alley in a wretched state, I think their labour would be pro- fitably employed — taking stone-breaking at a small price, and improving roads, which would aiot otherwise be improved. 2851. The work out of doors you propose for males is stone-breaking?- — Chiefly, and for outdoor workers they might be brought to labour like the others. A system might be adopted for employing them out of jail instead of in jail. Em])loying them out of jail has been said to lower wages, and encourage dishonesty. There may be something in that ; but certainly -it woidd be better that there should be a little loss — (all is loss at present), — and that they should take a little for their work out of doors mstead of in jail. 2852. "What kind of work would you propose to give to parties at their own homes ? — Why, at this moment I have a great many women employed. I have fonned a committee, of which Dr Alison and myself are the active members — we give them dresses to make — we have had forty constantly employed — we dispose of those dresses. It may be said that this injures triule. I don't think it do,es— for example, shopkeepers give a certain price for making cU'cssos-; and you are probably aware that there is a considerable export from this jilace of men's apparel made by women. The shopkeepers give very small sums for making these, and the pi-ofit goes to the merchant. It occurs to me, then, that the effect which results fi-om the operations of our committee is not to lower the price of the labour ; or it is at the lowest just now, but that it might be to reduce the profit of the merchants. 2853. So you think this system woidd increase the use of dresses ?— I think it would. Under Gfcorge Heriot's Hospital there have been schools established so as to extend the outdoor teaching. A great many schools have been erected, and are carried on under good teachers, but the system is detrimental to honest labour. The children are taught all kinds of fine work, — there is no demand for such work, but the children should be taught to mend their own clothes. They are in a most wretched state; they are ragged, and in tatters. Now, I don't think that if they were taught to repair their own clothes, it would hurt generally the interests of labour ; besides, tliere are many poor creatures, who, if they had money given them for labour would purchase clothing. If there were a law ordering an allowance for those who have no labour, they would be able to purchase clothing. t 2854. Have you applications for those who have no work, and require relief? — Yes, but POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 1G5 one ditilikes the principle of giving them money without labour in return, as it makes beggars ExaminationF. of them. — — 2855. You mean if parties were emjiloyed in moiJdng clothes they would consume more ,g >i';„c'r'li;4:/ themselves ?— Not only themselves, but their aged parents and all dependent on them. 2856. Do you not conceive that they would produce more clothes than they and their relations coidd consume ? — I don't think they would ; for it must be considered that there is a very great want of clothing throughout Scotland ; it is the most miserable country in the wiiole world, I believe. I have been much on the continent, and I have heard much of the wretched state of the sans cullottes. I have resided in almost every town of Italy ; but when I came back to London and to this country, the appearance of the people was much in contrast with wliat I had seen ; there is scarcely an Italian contadino who is not better dressed than our ordinary peasantry. I don't mean to say if what I refer to were to take place, tiicrc would not be decreasing consumption of ardent spirits, but I am satisfied there woidd be an immense increase in the consumption of clothing. If you take London alone, it woidd take the wiiole poor of Scotland alone to work for half a century before they woidd have sufficient clothing. I don't know what is the population of London, but it is some two or three millions ; but a vast proportion of them have their clothes hanging about them in perfect tatters, and rags, and filth. 2857. You would contemplate that these paupers who make clothes in return for relief, would make more than they themselves consume? — It is possible they might. If you speak of individuals, a poor woman would make a gown every day. They are in the habit of mak- ing loose wrappers at Gd. a piece. We pay Is. for a gown, as they require more labour, — they can make one in two days. Those persons might supply, perhaps, those in trades, young lads connected with them. Many are in a state of wretched nakedness ; and if they could obtain clotning at a moderate price it woidd better their appearance. Instead of giving away the clothes. })arties could, if employed, afford to give a moderate price for them. 2858. You only contemplate in requiring females to make clothing in return for assist- ance that they should clothe themselves and those connected with them, &c., and not that they should produce a greater quantity than may be needed for that puiiiose ?— I do not say that they woidd not be able to produce a further supply. I think they would. The dress referi-ed to is divided into parties. There are a great many able-bodied persons receiv- ing relief who cannot find work. There are others again who are consumptive, or labouring under various forms of disease. If you were to employ the whole they would produce a greater quantity of clothing than could be consumed by those receiving relief; and it is a matter for consideration ^^'llethel• tltis labour would not be advantageous in affording a sup- ply for those who are not in that condition, — ^^thoae for instance receiving very small wageg, — whether a trade coidd not be advantageously carried on with such persons by those parties who receive relief, and whose wages, of course, are not the same as the wages of those who have regular labour. 2859. If the able-bodied were employed at home, they would make more than the paupers would consume themselves ? — It would take a very long time. I have such an idea of the excessive want of clothing among the poor, that I can scarcely contemplate the period when tiiey would be so fully siq)plied as to allow a surjilus. 2860. Are you speaking of them clothing themselves, and the individuals connected w ith them ? — ]My answer to that is, that I think, in process of time, they woidd overtake more work than would be consumed by these parties. 286L If the system were in permanent operation, would they produce more than they needed for themselves ? — Tliey might, perhaps. 2862. You don't think it likely ? — I don't tliink it hkdy. 2863. If they produced more tVian they consumed themselves, would not the tendency be to lower wages ? — I don't think it would ; for the wages are as low as they can possibly be And we find a great many parties, who are not of very scnipulous cliaracter, that prefer idleness and stealing to the low price given by ,the merchant. 2864. If wages are absolutely at a minimum now, would not the introduction of fresh goods into the market have the effect of throwing a proportion out of the market altogether ? — It is alleged that the labour of those employed in jails has that effect ; but I never was able to see it. 2865. Independently of the paupers altogether, Avould the consumption — the price re- maining the same — of these goods, be increased by the increased production? — If I undciv staiid the question aright, I slioidd say (for I was long in a mercantile house, and employed in a public office), that there is a great quantity of the i)roceeds of the labour of these people spent in another way. This is perhaps taking the subject in a wider range. If the money which is spent on particular articles, such as whisky, were otherwise ap2;)lied, there would be a diminution in the quantity of whisky, but there would be an immense increase — (and I look very much to that) — 'in useful articles. I don't know when the people of Scotland would produce a sufficient quantity of clothing, if they gave up drinking. 2866. Do you think the people woidd gi\e up spirit drinking, if more clothes were made? — No, I don't think that ; but we would liold out inducements to temperance, or get them to attend the meetings of some society. 2867. Then you woidd come to moral means ? — To moral means. 2868. That is altogether independent of the question of labour? — Yea. 2869. You allude to temperance societies ? — Yes. I am sorry the higher classes don't take a greater interest in the temperance societies ; for intemperance is a great evil, not in Scotland jjarticulaiiy, but in Gjcat Britain ; aud.the syatera of drinking is altogether infamous whether in Dublin, London, or Edinburgh. 166 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Examinatiuns. Mr A. Xlacaiilay. 16 March lliii. 2870. Speaking of Edinburgh, is there a great deal of spirits drunk by what you would call the destitute ? — The most destitute drink, and I cannot understand how they get it. I have seen people getting the smallest amomit of wages — a miserable pittance — not only drinking, but drinking to excess. 2871. Where do they get it? — That is altogether incomprehensible. I have some people employed at a very low rate, yet they frequently drink, and are always smelling of whisky. 2872. Do they get it from other persons ? — There is one horrible practice in this town, of purchasing articles ; and, instead of giving money, they give spirits. For instance, in the article of coal alone, I discovered (and I could lay before you documents very satisfactory on the subject), that the people of Edinburgh arc robbed to a great extent ; and not a farthing is paid in money for the coal, but all in spirits. I cannot tnast myself to speak of the prac- tice, with its horrible results. The coalmasters give an overweight for the purjiose of bene- fiting the retail dealers. The scale must turn half or quarter of a cwt. For instance, 20 cwt. being the quantity sold for a ton, the coalmasters give 2 cwt. or 3 cwt. over. The people who bring the coal from the pits think this overweight a perquisite of theirs ; and they don't think it very immoral to help themselves to the over quantity. Consequently (it is not a supposed case but a reality), there are houses all round the city of Edinburgh, at Avhich the carter halts, and of which the owners sell spirits, and deal in coals, never having purchased with money a single ounce of coal. The consequence is, the carters get whisky ; they are of dissipated habits. If they begin with one giU, they end with a score in a day. This brings on disease, and increases the pauper popidation ; and not only so, but idleness, for they will not work after they have fallen into habits of dissipation. Now, this is one very fertile source of the increase of pauperism in Edinburgh. There is another thing also highly to be reprehended, — tlie practice of respectable grocers giving drams to persons in Edin- burgh, to induce them to take their goods from their shops. This ought to be put down by enactment, or by remonstrance from the pulpit, where the clergy have an opportu- nity of exercising their influence. There are other shoj)s which are in the habit of dealing in small articles — bones and the like. These are a great encouragement to pauperism ; for people who are in the habit of pilfering will not work. They can easily steal sixpence worth ; but it would take half a day's laboiu* to earn sixpence. Hence also they induce their children to steal. By attending the police (for I have been a police commissioner for a very long time), I have found that not only do such parties steal themselves, but iU-disposed servants and others induce respectable children to become thieves. This is a great som-ce of pauperism ; and what the state of pauperism is, will be seen from the fact, that, Avhen the soup-kitchen was established five years ago, no fewer than 14000 individuals were supplied. But if you will allow me to give you a note of the numbers, I shall do so ; for the memory is not to be trusted in these matters. 2873. Arc you not a member of the town-councU ? — I am. 2874. You complain of the practice of public houses giving spirits in the way you men- tion : Vfho licensed these ? — The magisti-ates. 2875. And to^vn-couneil ? — No, not the town-cotmcil — the sheriff". There is an unfortu- nate thing in Edinburgh, that the magistrates have authority within certain bounds, while the shcritr of the county has jurisdiction beyond these bounds, more than half the city. 2876. But is it not the magistrates and town-council that have power to license? — The magistrates have the power. The town-council have no power. The magistrates of Edin- burgh have taken a very great deal of pains about licenses ; and they employed the commis- sioners of police, who were supposed to know more of the parties in the wards, to make inquiry. The commissioners thought it a very troublesome task, and have given it up. But there are so many stratagems used by parties, that the magistrates are very often deceived. What I speak of, is not the inferior shops, but it is respectable people who give spirits as an inducement to deal with them. It is not considered immoral to give a servant a dram, if she go to the shop with a little money. Others give sweetmeats, which I think a very bad and immoral practice, but not so bad as giving spirits. For example, to give you an idea of what I mean, sometime ago a great many poor people applied for clothing. W^e wished to give to parties who would not pawn the clothing. We were excessively anxious to give it to such as woidd use and not sell it. There was one gentleman, an elder of the church, and in that capacity we applied to him to certify the certificates produced by applicants. To our astonishment (we had the police beside us — I was convener, and sat there), some of the most notorious characters in Edinburgh came with certificates from this individual. We gave to the parties, at first, without thinking of his business ; but the thing became so bad that we paused. We took his certificates, to the number of several hundreds ;— and how did it turn out ? These people were all his dram-drinking customers ; and we told him that unless he gave certificates on honour and conscience, we could not give clotliing to the holders. Now, this was a very respectable man — an elder of the church — a very nice, agreeable, pleasant man. I deal with him sometimes, as he keeps good articles. AVith respect to those parties, their faces were kno\vn to him by seeing them frequently bumpering off the spirits at his counter. 2877. When was a soup-kitchen first established? — There have been soup-kitchens for a very long time, and I can get the whole particulars, but I cannot recollect the dates. There was always some special reason for establishing them — either a severe winter, or some such thing — as the cholera. \VTien the cholera assailed the citizens of Edinburgh, a soinj-kitchen was set on foot. Another was established in 1838. I was a member of the committee. The only committee for labour was introduced by myself in 1842. I was instrmnental in getting it up, and am convener. I took upon me to employ men in labour; and they are at work on the Meadows. POOR LAW INQUIRY COIVDIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 167 2878. "\Yhen was that?— Only last year. 2879. Then you mean to say, that though funds were raised for the poor, they had not labour tiU last year ? — I do. 2880. As to families — to how many of these have you given employment? — In 1838 (I should have made that exception as to labour) ; there were 230 individuals, 180 women, and about 50 men, employed in making clothing, but that was not sold, it was given away. 2881. Relief funds were raised ? — Yes, relief fimds were raised at that time. 2882. Have you reason to believe that there is much destitution among single women in Edinburgh ? — Very great. There is another thing which makes me acquainted with the state of the poor in Edinburgh ; it is that I am treasurer, and take almost the entire manage- ment of the lock hospital. 2883. What do you think is the effect on single females of denying them all relief? — I cannot answer the question directly. I think they Avould prefer work to getting parish reUef. I find the most numerous and pressing applications for labour, as Dr Alison has pro- bably told you, for he is of the same opinion. So that these women would work if they got employed. Dr Alison told me one day, that 300 had been at him. They know his hours better than mine ; but they come sometimes — 200 or 300 of them, to me. I find the place whei-e I have my little establishment completely crowded ; and it is one of the most painful tilings to turn them away. But we have no funds to carry on, unless we hmit our establish- ment. 2884. What would you say to granting relief in a well regulated workhouse, when work was required ? — I think it woidd be a very great advantage if they coidd get work ; but whether in a workhouse, in their own house, or in some establishment, which woidd not ex- actly stamp it with the name of a workhouse. I cannot say which of these plans should be adopted. I am not disposed to give any establishment the name of an almshouse. I think it is revolting to the feelings of the people in this country especially, the idea of obtaining relief in that way. I consider if it were properly managed, that there might be some sort of establishment without the humbling name of an almshouse or poorshouse. But perhaps the better way (it is advantageous too to give them relief in their own houses) is to make them come to a public establishment. The advantage is, that they all mvist come as clean and neat as possible. These 180 women came first in rags and tatters, and covered with filth. I tried to improve tlieir condition with regard to cleanliness, which is also a very important element with reference to the poor, because it wards off disease. 2885. What connexion has that with the poor? — At all times fever is prevalent in Edin- burgh ; but more especially at particular seasons. In some years, and at some seasons, it is worse ; but I hold that if peo])le are cleanly, disease is warded off. Often the head of a family is cut off, or sent to the infirmary, and while there, parties find great difficidty in getting work ; while many are able to earn something considerable, perhaps they are im- provident ; but while the head of the family is in the infirmary, they are in excessive desti- tution, and find it exceedingly difficult to get relief, because these poor creatures who come for relief here in great numbers, never consider cleanliness at all. I introduced a system by which cleanliness was encouraged — they said they could not afford to buy soap — a quantity of half a pound or quarter of a pound was then given out ; but I have since seen many o f them on the street, and they appeared to be back to their old wretchedness and filth. They had a pride in coming before their superiors in a cleanly state, so that all moral feelings were not extinct. A great deal might yet be done to lessen the number of the poor. 288 G. You said you consider the allowance to the poor out of the workhouse an insult to them ? — A perfect mockery, if it be as it is in many instances, intended to be a kind of liv- ing. I know some managers who think certain parties only are entitled to relief I am of a very different opinion. So far as acts of parliament and laws go, they are all entitled, and a great deal of time wasted in inquiring about character. Sums, I know, are given to parties who make it all go the same way. If you were to give them 1/. a day it would all be spent with the same recklessness ; but for those who are tolerably well behaved, and would spend the money properly, the sum is a perfect insult. 2887. What would you consider sufficient for a man reduced by sickness, and coming on the poor funds ? — That is not a very easy question ; but I have inquired what wovdd suffice for a man who had a family. A poor man came last night — he is a fiimiture polisher — I employed him in my own house, and he is working at this moment. I had an upholsterer in the same way — I had a great deal of conversation with him, and asked him how he managed, — -first, he had two children, himself, and a wife — he got sixpence a day fi-om the relief funds given in charity. I asked him how he managed to live. He said he bought twopence worth of oatmeal with a little fat — this was stirred about, and he got one meal always every day fi'om this. Then how do your children fare, I asked, — he said, I leave fourpence with the wife, and I am obliged to run out of the house, because I cannot stand the screams of my children crying for food. 2888. Would you state, first, what should be given to a single man or woman in a reduced state, requuing aid, and then what should be given to a party with two or more children ? — if the intended case you mean be that of persons who shoidd be making a live- lihood if they had employment, the lowest should be 4s. or 5s. a week to a single person, if you would ward off disease. I cannot see how he can live upon less. 2889. You are making the supposition that he has no other source ? — Yes. That is little more than 6d. a day ; but I would say, that to prevent stealing, and save fi-om downright starvation, 5s. a week would be necessary. 2890. Now, for two persons, a man and his wife ? — ^It does not require exactly double, for there are ways of living. Dr Alison, in his work, recommends economical cooking. I have Examinations. Mr A. Macaulay. 16 March 1843. 168 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TxiKEN BEFORE THE Uxaiiiiiiaiiuns. bccn making an experiment, and perhaps nobody is able to s])cak so well, for I liave made — - — dishes, and invited them to diue. I know eight or ten living together, coidd live at less "a Marer"«4^" expense than two or three. 2891. But how nnich for the two?— I should say Is. or 2s. more; say, 7s. 2802. Then for three ? — 1 would increase the amount to a very small extent. Perhaj)s, if you speak of eight or ten, these can live on one-fourth the iunount requu-ed for single individuals. If they could buy a sufficient quantity of food to make a mess of it, they might live at a very modei"ate mte. Some articles are very cheap in this town. 2893. Then, ■\\hen you say the allowance from the workhouse is an insidt to the ]ioor, you proceed upon the supposition that the workhouse lias not fomid out that they have assistances from other sources ? — They often know that fact, and grant an allowance besides. 2894. And no examples have come imder your observation in which you think the allowance sufficient ? — I don't know one single instance, and I know many instances to the contrary.. I have known a man and vvoman in this city die of starvation. I perhaps don't know any getting relief from the parish ; but the difficidty of getting that relief is so great, that ])arties have died before they could obtain it. 2895. Could you mention an instance ? — There was a man of tlie name of M'Gerry, who was reduced to great destitution. I supported him out of my own ])ocket till he got work at the jNIcadows. He kept battling on amidst difficulties, but was overtaken by disease and death. He died actually of starvation. 2896. Do you know if parties have the alternative of going into the workhouse ? — They have no opportunity. This man ^I'Gerry, to whom I allude, had no such alternative, and the mention of his case will lead to one im])ortant observation. My conviction is, that there Mill be no good done to the poor of Great Britain till there is one law for the three king- doms. A law for Scotland might do some good, but it would not be thoroughly effijcted without a law for the whole three kingdoms.. One reason that leads to this conclusion is suggested by the case I have now mentioned. M'Geiry was bom in Ireland, but came to Scotland, where he lived many years. He then went to England, and wasted himself in working as a mixer of paint (a very unhealthy business).. He returned to Scotland. A cjuestion arose with respect to his parish. With all the little influence I had, I could not obtain permanent relief for him. I took him to the charity workhouse, where he got tem- porary aid ; but they got tired of him, and he was at this time supported by myself. 2897. Was he temperate ?— He was. 2898. He coidd not make out a good legal settlement? — He coidd not, there was so much difficulty in showing the residence. 2899. Then you don't bring that forward as an instance in m liich the workhouse has given a mere illusory allowance to the poor ? — Oh, no, because this man never got any aid except temporary ; but the temporary aid was so trifling, that he actu-aUy, in process of time, died for want of the necessaries of life. 2900. You said, if work were given instead of money, they would spend the money derived from work in a more proper manner than the relief obtained out of the workhouse ? — I have stated my reasons already for believing so. I think, when men work, they are generally more careful of tlicir money than when they get it for nothing. This generally holds ^ith all classes of men, except, perhaps, the British navy, of \\ horn it is said, they earn like horses and spend like asses ; but whatever condition of life parties arc in, their money, when it is earned, iii more carefidly expended. 2901. Supposing a 2>erson addicted to intemperate liabits, woidd he spend the money more carefully if it were derived from his own labour ? — I don't know any great diffi^rence, if there is intemperance 2902. You think drinking the great cause of destitution? — A great cause. In Dr Alison's work, he says, that when people get poor, they begin to drink ; and there I differ from him. I think drinking the fundamental cause of poverty, and not jioverty the cause of drinking. There may be solitary instances where poverty is the cause of drinking, but their mmiber is V ery small ; and I conclude by answering, that I conceive drink the great cause of poverty tliroughout Great Britain. 2903. Would you suggest any other means, besides temperance societies, for makuig head against this great evil ?^ — I suggested that no good could be done imless government intro- duced a general law for the three kingdoms. This is a s]ieculation, and pcrhaj)s you may check me if I enter on it ; but something might be done to restrain intemperance. 2904. Do you think anything could be done to effect a radical change in the habits of those who are addicted to intemj)erance ?— I think there coxdd. For instance. Father Mathew has achieved very much. You are quite aware he is discouraged by the government. 2905. I was not aware of that? — Perhaps not by the government; but, at all events, by liis own cliurch. I know the bishop in this city disapproves of Father Mathew's system. Father ]\Iathew is said to be making a large fortune bj selling tickets. I believe such is the case, because the tickets, intrmsically, are not worth more than twopence a \nccc ; but each of them costs Is. Here is an assessment on the poor. I don't see why go\'crnment could not sti-ike these medals, and have them sold for their intrinsic Aalue. 2906. But don't you think it woidd tell still more powerfully on the moral habits if a sys- tem of mond and religious instruction were de\ ised ? — I am sorry to say that my rejily must strike against parties. But I am rather independent in these things. I must out \\ith the truth ; I am sworn to tell the truth. In the distribution of clothing five years ago, some mend)ers of committee thought proper to inquire a\ hether the parties had money fiom the parish, and whether a minister or elder ever visited them. We set on foot an inquiry. Out POOR LAW INQUIRY COilMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 169 of a great many cases — 4000 or 5000— being one half of the whole 10,000 applicants — got Exaniiiiati<.ns. clothing ; but a docquet was put on the back of every one schedule ; and out of the whole — — number there were but four who declared that they had seen the face of a clergyman. I ^^g MardMiuT don't mean to say altogether tiiat they were so religiously inclined as to deplore this as a very great loss ; but I say, that clergymen are possessed of very great moral influence, and if the higher classes were to mingle more with the poor, this would have the greatest effect in im- proving the moral condition of the lower orders. One reason why pauperism has increased so, much in Edinburgh is that — (as every one wlio has lived in Edinburgh must know)— while the wealthier classes were mingled with the poorer classes, their residences being in the same localities, a strong moral influence was exercised by the former- over tlieir neighbours ; but the wealthier classes having now removed to the New Town, these people are left without the moral check which was formerly felt so beneficial. 2907. And I understand you- to state that if such a connexion were established through the clergy, tliat would produce a great moral change ? — It would ; but I must be cautious in what I say, because there are a gi'cat many religious persuasions ; and I shoidd be very cau-- tious in suggesting any government measure with reference to that subject. For instance,, there are a great many Catholics, among whom, perhaps, tike clergy may not be very wel- come. 2908. They are always- welcome ? — I am not very sure about that ; but tliis I know, that if the better classes were mingling more with the poor, and taking more interest in their con-^ dition, it would have -a great effect. 2909. You said, in the Ileriot schools the children are taught fine work? — I mean em- broidering — ^making little fancy articles — making reticides, which I think might more pro- jterly be called ridicules. They are taught to make these little fancy things. What would be advantivgeous to the poor everywhere woiUd be if they were taught to make and mend, their owni clotliing. This would not interfere with trade, and would cost nothing. 2910. Are not the boys admitted to Ileriot's Hospital of the better class of societ}^ — not the sons of operatives but of the better classes ? — I am quite aware there are parties admitted, who ought not to be so. 2911. Would you suggest that the-sons of burgesses,who have the prospect of being rather- among the sujjcrior classes, should mend their own clothing ? — I referred only to the girls in the out-schools. 2912. The hospital contains 180 boys who are all educated- within its walls? — There is one- little matter which affects the poor. I have a motion, coming on at the next meeting of our - police board, that no person should be employed on the establishment who has not been three years in Edinburgh. 2913. Do you consider the number of destitute people gi'eater at this time than generally?' — I think it is. 2914. From what cause? — A great many Irish, who came to work on the Edinburgh ami'. Glasgow Railway, have been thrown out of employment. They have gi'eater facilities now for coming to this country ; and they think, the streets of Edinburgh are lined -with gold. 2915. Then the destitution has increased within a few years in a greater ratio than the popiUation ? — So- it appears to- me ; but I coidd not speak positively without aur actual com- parison of numbers. The destitution, however, appears to me to have increased in a greater - ratio than the population. 2916. Are the persons relieved out of the relief fund under your direction ? — No. I am, convener of the work committee. 2917. Among the persons who are employed by the work committee is there a considerable number who have been thrown out of employment by the present depression? — A very great proportion of them have been thrown out of employment by the general falling off in the trade of the country. To give an example : — Blacksmiths are generally in good employment ;, here they are general smiths, not, as in manufacturing towns, restricted to a particidar branch. The business is here a general house trade. I believe there are 100 of these blacksmiths at present out of employment in Edinbm'gh : fifty of them, after they had parted -with every thing they had, came to the Meadows. An individual applied to me for a smith, and wantedi one of a particular kindj and a good man. I told him I would take pains to select one. I did not know the precise number at the Meadows then ; but I said I thought I could get half-a-tlozen. Instead of that there were twenty-five. They were a most respectable class. When I saw so many young-looking able men, I was so puzzled that I sent the whole twenty- five down to the individual who had made the application. That is a great proof of the ex- tent to which trade is depressed. There is a greater number of Irish labourers than in ordi- nary years; but there is a third circumstance which bears the other way. I believe there are not more unemployed tradesmen belonging to Edinburgh than in ordinary years. There i? a great number of parties who never are in employment — bad workmen — stupid men — who never get employment except when there is a very great increase of trade. Many of those who are employed on the Meadows are also dissipated persons, who are ready to apply to any public charity. 2918. Did you propose-to the managers of the workhousCj when you wei-e on the admis- sion committee that a higher allowance should be granted ? — ^I am one of those who resigned being a member of that committee, in consequence of the great desire I saw in certain indi- viduals to strike the poor down to the lowest pitch. I have given over in aluMst perfect despair endeavouring either to get those whom I conceive to be necessitous relieved at all, or to get them a proper allowance. I have applied often to the Edinbiu-gh and West Church charity workhouses for an increase of allowance ; but in vain. 2919. Pray, were you a member of the tovra-councU when the request was made by the Z 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniinations. Mr A. Macaulay. 16 March 1843. managers of the Edinburgh charity workhouse to raise the assessment ? — I don't recollect. I always felt disposed if the managers had applied to the town-council since I became a member, most cordially to support any propositions for an increase. 2920. So far as the to^^^l-co^mcil is concerned, there would be no difficulty in raising the assessment, if the managers applied ? — On the contrary, I think there would be very great difficulty. The West Church embraces a portion of the city, which has fewer poor. The Canongate has a very high rate. They consider they are sufficiently taxed for the city. 2921. Then you think there would be a difficulty in prevailing on the magistrates and town-council to grant an additional assessment ? — There would be a great noise about it ; and it is difficidt to say what the council might do. It is a fluctuating body ; and everything depends on the individuals who come in. I have seen a measure carried after being opposed at first. 2922. How many are there in the council ? — Thirty-three ; and eleven of these go out every year. A measure which is not carried this year may be so the next. But I consider that there would be a considerable noise and opposition on the subject of an increased assess- ment. The magistrates, for example, wanted to give 2000/. for the lunatic paupers to the Momlngside asylum ; but this was opposed by the managers. 2923. I understood you to say, that a number of those who attend the Heriot schools are very ragged in their clothing, and are employed in making fancy work, whereas you would wish them instructed in making their own clothing, and making themselves clean ? — Yes. 2924. I understood your idea to be that if the children were thus required to contribute to their own neatness and cleanliness, the valuable habits thus acquired woidd accompany them through life, and prevent them from falling into a state of destitution ?— I think so. The idleness of the children in the city of Pxlinburgh should be checked ; and I think an example shoidd be taught them in these public schools. I made a motion, which was carried with great reluctance, that the children should receive a reward, a prize, for cleanliness. There is a laxity, however, on the part of the governors ; and motions have been made by me that those prizes be publicly given. 2925. Your general idea with respect to granting relief to the poor seems to be that the relief should be given in return for some laboiu- performed by the poor ? — Performed by the poor. 2926. And I understood you alluded to the moral effect of this in keeping the paupers occupied in the first place, and leading them in the second place to attach a higher importance to the money acquired by them ? — Yes. 2927. And you consider that in their being employed in this way, and having to render to their superiors a tale of work, the moral effect would be that they would attend more to the decency of their clothing, and consequently devote a less portion of their eai-nings to ardent spirits ? — ^I do think so. When people are employed, they have not the same desire for ardent spirits as when idle. 2928. And you don't suppose this would interfere to a great extent with the market of labour ? — I don't think it would. It would be attended with very great good, and with very little harm. 2929. Do not you proceed on the idea that in furnishing work to the poor in this way you are merely enabling the poor to render that amoimt of labour, which, if well disposed, they would render of themselves ? — Quite so ; and it is not so much the disposition, but when they get idle habits they get out of the turn of employment. A merchant applied to me the other day, and got six women. If these women had been able to go on systemati- cally, they would have found out the merchant for themselves. 2930. Then I understand your idea to be that through means of a public board of charity, you would just give fidl scope to the labour which every person in a proper state of society would render himself? — Quite so. 2931. What within your knowledge are the wages of the lowest class of agricultural laboiu-ers in the neighboiu-hood of Edinbiu-gh ? — I have made inquiry on the subject with reference to our young men ; and perhaps the wages may be stated at 9s. a week. I have the wages of different counties, and could furnish a table. 2932. And have you reason to believe that some labourers support large families on that sum ? — In many instances those parties who work for the farmers have little advantages which to^vnspeople have not. They have poultry and pigs. TiU very lately, the trade with Ireland having increased, these were very profitable. I should like attached to this statement, that these labourers have generally other means of support. They also get some little allowance. They are permitted to keep a cow. They have also an allowance of meal. That does not apply to those engaged in road-making or in work of a general nature, but particularly to agricultural labourers. 2933. But with regard to the common labourers who are engaged in country work ? — I never heard of any getting less than 9s. a week. In this class, the very poorest families keep poultry. They make them a source of considerable emolument. They have eggs ; and at times these are very dear, sell at Is. or Is. 6d. a dozen. 2934. Do you know anything of labourers who are supporting themselves on 9s. a week without other soiu-ccs ? — There is no instance that I know. There may be such ; but as a general rule, I know no instances of agricidtural labourers supporting their families with 9s. a week apart from other sources. 2935. You are a director of the lock hospital ? — I am treasurer, and am almost sole - manager ; it is not a very agreeable task. 2936. What is the nature of that institution ? — It is for the cure of the venereal disease in females. POOR LAW INQUIRY COM^nSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 171 2937. Confined to females ?— Yes. 2938. And have you an opportunity of seeing the people coming there ? —I have ; it ia perfectly horrible. There are children of eight years of age, and women beside them of seventy. 2939. What is the state of the funds? — ^We are, in consequence of the withdrawal of 50/. once derived from government, obliged to screw down to the lowest farthing. The managers have thought proper to restrict the numbers. 2940. What is the number to which the admissions are restricted? — Thirty. Till lately, we had seldom fewer than fifty ; and if we had room, there might be twenty times more. It is a frightful disease. It is one of the great causes of the increase of pauperism. The constitution of many is very much destroyed by that disease ; and with reference to the children admitted into the charity workhouse — little, wretched, squalid, blear-eyed, scabbed creatures — their appearance is very apt to be attributed to want of care on the part of the managers. But the fact is, that a great many of them have the venereal disease in their constitutions before they come there, and that accounts for the miserable and squalid, and scabbed appearance of these children. 2941. Have you reason to believe that any of the persons who are in the lock hospital are driven by destitution to evil courses ? — I believe in a great many cases they are driven to prostitution by extreme destitution. Another cause is, having been debauched in the Examinations. country, and having come into Edinburgh to conceal their shame. But in this institution and restoring we have a great many opportunities of sending them back to their parents them to their families — many of them those of tradesmen in Edinburgh. I had, not long ago, a highly respectable tradesman, who called on me, requesting me to take an interest in his daughter. She had been debauched ; and it is true she was there. It was a dreadful thing to find a parent coming with such an application. He was a respectable person. That was a case where the cause was not destitution, but seduction. He was an operative trades- man. 2942. Do you publish reports ? — We do ; but this year we have doubts whether we shall publish one, as we cannot afford the expense, the balance due to me last year amounting to 22,11. 2943. Coidd you favoiu- us with any of the rejiorts ? — ^I shall be happy to do so. We have been hesitating about printing a statement. I don't know whether it does much good. 2944. Have you anything to state ?— If I have any further infonnation to give, I shall send it. 2945. You have no suggestion for any alteration in the poor law ? — lam clearly, decidedly, and cannot too emphatically express my opinion that there ought to be a poor law for the whole country. All ought to be treated alike. It would do away with the feeling of English, Irish, and Scotch, and remove an amazing deal of difficulty from the managers at the different poor establishments. 2946. To abolish the present law of settlement ? — I would abolish all the laws at present in operation, and in a single half page would make a law which would serve better than all the present cumbrous machinery. 2947. You woidd wish to abolish the law of settlement ? — I would abolish every thing. There would be no occasion for a law of settlement. It is very hard on particular localities. In the Canongate parish they have a tax of 2s. in the pound, while in the West Church the assessment never was above 7d. in the pound for parties residing in the same city. 2948. You wish to have national funds ? — I wish to have national funds for the relief of all the poor and all the diseased. The royal infirmary is a matter which ought to be con- sidered along with this poor law. The burden is laid on the inhabitants of Edinburgh in a very unfair way. Being left to voluntary contribution, you find probably 100 or 200 people supporting the whole. Mr A. Macaulay. 16 March 1843. Mr Drummond, Examined : — Mr Drummond. 2949. You are employed by various charitable persons in making inquiries into the con- dition of the poor in Edinburgh \ — Yes ; I have been so for a number of years. 2950. What is the general state of the poorer classes in Edinburgh in point of circum stances ?— Very, very low indeed. 2951. Do you consider them in a worse condition now than for some years previous % — Yes ; during this winter. 2952. Taking the last year or two do you think them in a worse condition than for two or three years before that 1 — A most deserving class of the community are so. There is another class so low and degraded that they are much the same as formerly. 2953. But the industrious classes of poor are in a worse condition than two or three years previous ? — Yes. 2954. To what do you attribute that deterioration of circumstances ? — Greatly to want of employment. 2956. From what arises great destitution among the worthless classes 1 — From drunken^ ness, generally speaking. 2956. Do they form a very large class in Edinburgh ? — Very large. 2957- Are they generally out of employment from their own bad condition \ — Generally so. 2958. Do you think an occasion, such as the present, where subscriptions have been raised for the relief of the unemployed, brings out these dissipated characters to obtain 172 AnXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, casual charity ! — I believe, in very many cases, it does. But these are not satisfied with „ ~ that. They try means in order to obtain more. They will go and get their name called 16 Mmch 1843. at a meeting, and will go through the town begging .during the day. Some of these are most worthless. I know that iis the fact. 2959. Then you thinli they impose on thecomniittee at the Meadows, and then go and .beg in town ? — Yes. 2960. Of course the names of those persons appearing on the list of the relief committee would make the numbers of unemployed industrious persons look greater than otherwise ■they would do ? — ^'Yes ; that is my opinion. 2961. Does the wantof employment extend at present to a great many of the different industrious classes, — craftsmen of all classes ?^0h, yes. 2962. Have you any idea whence the want of employment arises 1 — ^I cannot answer ithat question. 2963. From the observations you have made among the more worthless classes in Edin- .burgh, could you suggest any mode. of improving their condition 1 — They are sunk so low that it would be necessary to raise them. 2964. And what means would they suggest 1 — ^If they wanted a coat I would try to give it them, and direct them to the means of grace, to attend on the preaching of the •gospel ; for whenever I find people attending the means of grace, I see their moral character raised. There are hundreds — more than 10,000 — who never attend a place of •worship. They are sunk so low that they have not clothes to go to church with. The Jong habit of non-attendance has had a demoralizing efi^ect upon them. 2965. Do you believe a more active superintendence of them, by means of kirk-sessions, ■would have a beneficial effect on that class ? — Certainly, it would. 2966. Do you find a great many strangers from other parts of Scotland, and other parts of the United Kingdom 1 — Yes; and my humble opinion is, that the benevolent rich are greatly the cause by giving indiscriminate charity to people, enabling them to .remain in Edinburgh, till they have a right to maintenance from the public money. 2967- Have you known many instances of charity having been given to undeserving individuals? — I have known it. I have known that it must have been given, particularly by ladies on the streets. A great deal is given indiscriminately in that way to street beggars. At all events, there is a great number of strangers who have been supported in Edinburgh till three years had elapsed, and who never wrought very much. 2968. Do you think that the influx of strangers has a bad effect on the morals of the people among whom they associate in Edinburgh ? — ^Undoubtedly, they must. They are of idle habits. 2969. Is there a great deal of begging from door to door ? — A very great deal. 2970. Do you think the knowledge of the low allowances given by the charity work- house, and other institutions of that kind, has any effect in making people give more easily to beggars ! — ^Undoubtedly, it has. That I believe is the main cause. If I am unable to work, and have right to parish relief, and receive only one-third or one-half of what will ;maintain one, this will just cause me to go and beg. Give me what will maintain me, and then you have a right to punish me if I don't abide by it. 2971. Do you know if there is much begging among those who are in receipt of paro- chial relief? — There must be assistance given, because what they get cannot maintain them. 2972. Do you know any instances? — Oh, yes. I have known many. Nay, I have found it necessary, when inquiring after the worthless, on finding a poor person who had got parish aid. I have found it necessary to state to my employers their need when I found them deserving. ,2973. What have you found to be the great causes of the poverty that existed among the classes that you visited ? — Generally speaking, the want of employment. 2974. Have you any success in persuading the people whom you have provided with cloth- ing and otherwise fitted for going to the house of God, to go thither ? — Yes, very much of late. For instance, the Englishmen who wrought in the silk- factory — I got the greater part of them to attend church regularly. It was in my power to give those who wanted clothes for the purpose. They went and heard an excellent minister ; and go where they will, I have no doubt they will be better people. 2975. And will the habit induced through your beneficence be permanent ? — We have not had time enough to judge. 2976. How long has this continued ? — Only during the winter. But there are many cases where I have brought a second-hand coat to a poor man, and told him part of tlie condition was that he should attend churcli. I can look back for years and see the good eflPects ; there are not a few cases, however, in which it failed. 2977. Now, if there were in the West Church parish a more widely extended system of pastoral superintendence, with a view to that end — don't you think the effect on the charac- ter of the people would be very great ? — I think that is just what is wanted. I think it the duty of those who go among the poor not to preach to them, but to preach them into the church. I find some who go to some meeting, but no meeting would avail when they do not go to the house of God. 2978. Is it your impression that drunkenness causes pauperism ? — A great deal, but not the whole. 2979. Where are you employed — throughout the whole town .f* — I am employed by many benevolent families, l am in .every part of the town making inquiry ; but, generally speak- ing, Dr Alison is before me. POOH LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 173 2980. From what parishes are applications for relief most frequent ? — From the Old Town Examinations. — ^the Cowgate, the Canongate, the Pleasance. I have not so many applications from the New Town. For years past, whenever I am sent to inquire into the character of a poor 'i*c March 'i"843 person, I take the name and address and then try to find what is the character. By looking at my book, I can easily and accurately answer the question. 2981. Of course the applications are most frequent from the oldest parts of the town^ — Yes. 2982. Are the applications more frequent from the poorer parts of the West Church than from the poorer parts of the city'.? — I cannot -speak to that. 2983. Can you say whether the applications are less frequent from small parishes which are well looked after by the minister and kirk-session ? — The very contrary occurs ; and there are many from Mr Guthrie's parish — not from any want of care and attention, but from the poor hearing how well they are looked after : there is not a house empty in Mr Guthrie's parish. He gives a great deal indiscriminately ; but for some time past he has paid more attention. 2984. Then you mean that people flow into Mr Guthrie's parish, from the expectation of being better looked after .'' — Yes, very naturally. 2985. There is a transfer of their poor from other parts of the town, because they are better looked after ?• — Yes. Still even these, well as they are looked after, they don't get half enough. 2986. You find deserving poor not sufficiently relieved ? — That is my decided opinion. 2987. On a comparison of Mr Guthrie's parish with others in the Old Town, do you believe that the greater number of applications from that parish arises from the circumstance that there are really more poor in that parish, or from the circumstance that the poor who are there are better looked after, and have their claims more efficiently brought forward? — ^I think the latter. People go there because they think they will be better provided for. 2988. The poor think that being there they will be attended to by the upper classes, and have their cases entertained ? — I am not sure of that. They went because there was more attention by the minister and kirk-session. 2989. But their cases are brought under the notice of those who would give relief?— Perhaps so. 2990. And would they have more ready access to the charity workhouse from that parish,? — I am not aware of that. 2991. Would you give us in your own words what causes them to flock to that parish? — I have told that I think plainly. 2992. When you say that the poor are better looked after, you mean that in a pecuniary sense they are better looked after? — Yes. 2993. There is a great deal done — is there not — in Mr Guthrie's parish, and through others — through your instrumentality for instance — ^in the way of putting people to working for themselves ? — That is just the very end of making them attend the means of grace- making them seek employment. 2994. It is part of your business to find them employment? — Yes. 2995. Do they seem grateful for this ? — Generally they do. 2996. And you found them willing to accept .'' — In very few cases I found it fail. 2997. Your opinion of the mode of management in Mr Guthrie's parish, is not that the poor are as well provided for as they ought to be, but that they are better provided for than in the neighbouring parishes ?— Yes. 2998. Do you think it would bo possible to provide sufficiently for the poor by the volun- tary contributions at the church doors ? — No. 2999. Suppose there were no assessment, and the poor depended entirely on the collec- tions at the church doors, do you think these contributions would be increased ? — I do not know, i don't approve of that at all. 3000. Of those poor whom you have seen, are there any that you believe came to Edin- burgh for the purpose of getting a settlement? — I am not aware of individual cases. I am perfectly aware that great numbers have lived in Edinburgh, and been supported by bene- volent people, up to the period when they had a settlement. I think that very wrong. I think it wrong that the people belonging to the place should be used in that way, by per- sons giving money to strangers, and enabling them to acquire a settlement. 3001. And how long have they resided before applying? — I would say as soon as they came to town they applied. 3002. Do you know any individuals who have come here because they could not get cot- tages in country parishes 1 — No ; I .never knew any. 3003. In the case of those who are relieved by your means, and for whom you have sought out employment in times of difficulty, have you been able to restore any of them to independence, so that they are no longer troublesome ? — There are a good few cases. 3004. Where by temporary support you carried them through difficulty, and they re- covered their independence? — And sought no more. There are instances of their coming and telling that they did not need more. The low lodging-houses in Edinburgh are a ruin to the strangers that come to Edinburgh. They have a book — numbers of them — where the names of all benevolent people are entered, with the residences. When a stranger comes to Edinburgh, they obtain so much for letting him look into that book, and then they write their letter. 1 have more than 2000 of these letters. A man and his wife will pay 3s. a week in these houses ; and they will try to live by begging. 3005. Do you know by whom these books are prepared ? — No. There are plenty of drunken writers who are so low as to take up the trade. J have perhaps fifty or sixty let- 174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiiiinations. Mr Dnimmond. 16 March 1843. ters written in their own hands. I have found instances in which these letter writers, on a person telling them the night before that they wished to write a letter to such a gentle- man or lady, have, without asking what they particularly wanted, told the parties that they would have one in the morning. I proved that lately. I had an application from a woman who had got a letter written for her. She was a deserving character, and had not enough to live upon. She was on the parish with four children. But the writer of the letter wrote that she was in absolute want. The night before when she spoke to him, he did not say he would come to her house to write the letter, or that she should come and dictate to him ; but he said he would send the letter to her in the morning. That is what ruins the poor. 3006. He wrote it out of his own head ? — Yes. 3007. There is a class of persons whose regular profession is to write begging letters for the poor ? — Yes ; and they are paid for them. 3008. But some of those for whom begging letters are written, are objects of charity ! — Yes, they are. 3009. If they were afforded a decent maintenance, would they resort to such arts ? — I do not think they would. 3010. Then the small allowances do not raise, but demoralize, the poor ? — They demo- ralize them. Mr J. Wright. Mr John Wright, Town-Councillor, Examined : — 3011. You are a member of the town-council } — Yes. 3012. I understand you have a pretty extensive acquaintance with the working classes throughout Edinburgh? — Yes, I have. 3013. Will you be so good as tell us in what situation the deserving are in point of em- ployment and remuneration ? — I consider that among those who have learned professions or trades, there is greater destitution and distress than I ever knew before. 3014. Among what you call craftsmen, or tradesmen '■ — Craftsmen ; and the same may be said with respect to the labouring classes of the community. 3015. Has that extraordinary distress been of long duration ? — Since my attention has been directed particularly to the state of the poor, it has been increasing for the last ten years. 3016. Till it has reached a crisis ? — I consider it coming to a crisis at the present moment. 3017. To what causes do you trace the deterioration in their condition ? — In this city, what struck me first as influencing the condition of the poor, was the trades' unions. These had, at that time, an effect on the state of trade in Edinburgh. 3018. Will you just tell us in what manner these affected the state of trade } — At that time there was a proposal made among the trades to form themselves into unions ; and an alarm was spread among the masons, joiners, slaters, shoemakers, tailors, and the public generally. They were regularly organized, so that there was no security for taking any piece of work, as the unions might interfere ; and they shook the confidence of people to such an extent, that masters did not proceed with work at all : they delayed till they should see what the result might be. Since then, there has been a general stagnation of trade. 3019. Then you attribute the deterioration of the working classes to the measures taken by the trades' unions ? — In this city only. I was once a vice-president of one of these unions myself ; and I know from practical experience, that their effect is injurious. 3020. Injurious to the workmen ? — Injurious to the master as well as the workman. I would consider that the master suffered most. 3021. Are you acquainted also with the condition of what is called the destitute poor ? ^Yes. 3022. With the condition of those receiving parochial aid ? — Yes ; 1 know particularly about the Canongate, being a manager there. Though a manager of the Edinburgh charity workhouse, I am not so conversant with its affairs. 3023. Do you think the aid sufficient ? — No, I think it miserably inadequate. 3024. Do you consider that the precarious means of subsistence given to the poor engenders bad habits ? — Yes. 3025. Are they reckless or careful .'' — I consider them reckless, rather {ban careful. 3026. Does it lead to begging ? — Oh, undoubtedly. They have not enough to pay their house rent. The Canongate has tried to get rid of them with 6d. a week ; Is. and Is. 6d. with large families ; and the reason was, that we were very anxious not to get them on at all, if we could avoid it. 3027. And that in the case of persons without visible means of subsistence .'' — Yes. A widow woman with a family, has some families who give her washing for lOd. or Is. a day when employed. To get quit of this woman we offered her the workhouse. She de- clined. Another, having children about twelve or fourteen, or younger, would not go in, because tlien she would leave her family to starve, or acquire vicious habits ; and the con- sequence was, that the workhouse was relieved from the burden. And sometimes a ticket for a peck of meal is given, sometimes a little money. 3028. In the case when you offered the house, would you not have been obliged to take in the children ? — No, they were of an age when they ought to be at service, or at an POOR LAW INQUIRY COIVBIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 175 apprenticeship. The boys in the house we turn out at ten or twelve years of age ; sending them, one to a shoemaker, another to run messages, and so on. We get quit of them as soon as possible. 3029. Then the effect of forcing the woman into the house would be to prevent her from maintaining herself and family by her own labour to a certain extent .'' — Just so. But that is not the object. The offer was made, knowing that she would refuse. 3030. Do you mean that this refers to the Canongate ? — Yes, and the city also. 3031. How long have you been a manager of the Canongate 1 — For two or three years. I am one still, I was there last week, on Tuesday, sitting from six to nine. There might be fifty applicants. A sub-committee is appointed to see whether there is any clue to getting them out of the parish. Sometimes we say, " This woman is going to be a burden ;" if she will not accept the house, then we get quit of her ; if she accept, we refuse, giving her something, for we cannot take many in. 3032. Then it is illusory on the part of the committee to offer the workhouse, as they have not accommodation for any more ? — Undoubtedly so. 3303. If a party applies to the managers, who has not a settlement, what do the managers do ? — We have sometimes a difficulty in that case ; but they never get anything but a little meal, or temporary relief. The managers are rigid in turning them off. I know a woman born in the Canongate, who was married there, but left the Canongate, and resided with her husband in the West Church parish for four years. After that, she removed, and came to the city, and lived in Leith Wynd, on the Canongate side. She subsequently went to St Mary's Wynd, on the side belonging to the city. Then her husband died. She had an infant family of three. She applied to the Canongate, and we managed, among the three workhouses, to have nothing to do with her at all. 3034. How did she lose one settlement and not gain another 1 — Because the managers of the different workhouses staved her off ; but I got her settled ultimately upon the city. 3035. Suppose you find a person destitute in the parish of Canongate, notoriously not belonging to the parish, do you not relieve .'' — Not to my knowledge. I saw the case of an old woman from the north country : she had no assistance from the institution. When I visited her with Alexander Craig on the South Bridge, she was living in a cellar, up to the ancles in water. She had not received a shilling from any quarter. We gave her a few shillings. 3036. The parish would give no aid in such a case ? — No. She afterwards got aid from the Destitute Sick Society. 3037. But as far as you know, the parish would have left her to die there ? — Yes. 3038. And she applied to the parish ? — She applied to every body. She applied to the parish, but not having lived below St John's cross, the Canongate got quit of her. She was just opposite the head of New Street. 3039. Is there much intemperance among the poor ? — A great deal. 3040. Is there much poverty occasioned by it ? — I can't say that poverty is occasioned by it ; but many become more intemperate after they have fallen into poverty. My father kept a spirit-shop in the Grassmarket, and I had an opportunity of observing their habits when a young lad. I have seen them take up all the money they received from the charitie's in spirits or in provisions, and have known them resort to strange shifts to raise money before pay-day. They were punctual in paying, because they knew the advantage of having their run of a shop. They begged. I have known them form themselves into such a state, that they could not be recognized. They could put themselves into the greatest state of palsy and other diseased states ; they would have their legs drawn up, and the like ; but when they came home, they were as hale and stout as people could be. I had every opportunity of seeing the tricks of beggars, when I lived in that place. 3041. Would you think that a higher allowance would have done better ? — No. It is a matter of discretion for the managers to take such cases under their care. 3042. Has any proposition been made by the charity workhouse to build a new workhouse .-" — Not in the Canongate ; we have no funds. We are sometimes thinking of resigning our places, and leaving the people to shift for themselves. The Canongate was once a very respect- able part of the town. It is now fallen in repute ; there are no wealthy persons there, except a few in St John's Street. The consequence is, that all the respectable houses and people are overburdened, and parties, by residing at a cheap rent, acquire an industrial residence. These parties are not able to pay rates. The gas-works are the great stay of the poor. A gentleman, Mr Macaulay, was looking at a house in St John's Street, but he would not take it, when he learned the amount of the burdens ; the rent was 32/. The house stands empty, and every year the tax is increasing. I know I never would have been an heritor there, had I known the burdens before I purchased. 3043 . Then does the taxation for maintaining the poor in the Canongate press upon those immediately above the poor 2 — Yes ; it is that class entirely that pays, except the gas- works and the breweries. 3044. What would you say to an assessment within the parliamentary boundary ? — It is just the thing with a workhouse, and parties brought in, without respect to the particular locality in which they live. It is quite impossible the Canongate can long continue as it is, for it will soon have to leave the poor to support the poof. No person stays there able to pay, unless from circumstances, and as the parish extends from Carnegie Street, coming along Leith Wynd, and containing all below that line, I calculate that the vast majority of the population are of the very poorest class of the community, and the most likely to become paupers on the parish. They get a house very cheap in the Canongate. 3045, Does your knowledge of the town enable you to say, whether there are persons Examinations. Mr J. Wright. IG March 1843. 176 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Bxiuninations, Mr J. Wright. in March 1843. SO little removed from tlie poorer classes, that an increase of assessment would reduce them almost to a state of want ? — No. 1 don't think, the working class would generally merge into the poor. I have often seen the working man most liberal to those imme- diately below him. If he has a shilling, he will give sixpence of it in charity, rather than see his neighbour want. I have known such cases. I was a working man myself for fourteen years, as a mason, and I have lived in the Cowgate for the last twelve years, and I have had every orportunity of witnessing such things. 3046.. You state that tliere is a great deal of drunkenness and dissipation among these feople. Have you formed any idea as. to a plan for diminishing or putting a stop to it? — never could conceive any plan for doing so, without putting all these parties into the workhouse. I must say my feeling is a good deal against the English system, but after being in England, and making inquiry into the subject, I conceive that all these parties should be in the poorhouse. But it ought to be a matter for the discretbn of those vested with the management, to order them in or out, just as the case may be. I know in the Cowgate great destitution prevails. There is a great portion who have no relief from any charity. I had occasion, in taking up the census, and in visiting with reference to the Prince of Wales' Fund, to make minute inquiries, more particularly in the latter instance I devoted a great deal of time ; and only last week I burned two large sheets wliich I had filled up, and had got certified by some ciders of the New North parish, who had devoted great attention to the subject. I think, in three tenements we had 470 families, which all might be said to be in a state of destitution ; and I don't think there w-ere twenty or thirty who had parish relief. Some went about selling baskets, mats,. eggs, fish, &c. ; and a great many sold firewood and matches. You can scarcely imagine the way in which they lived. 3047. But would you give relief to such persons ? — I don't think they are able to support themselves;, but the greatest evil is that you are training up one class, their children, to be thieves or prostitutes — they must either steal, or get a living by the vilest means. I have known a woman who has sent her cliild, not ten or twelve years of age, out to the street, and been a participator in the crime. 3048. When you say three tenements, do you mean three houses .' — I mean, three lands. 3049. How many stories high ? — Six or seven, besides some two or three garrets. 3050. How many individuals might there be in one room .' — I could hardly tell. You could scarcely imagine the scenes presented there. There is one M'Cabe, M'ho would have twenty or thirty individuals in his house, under the name of lodgers. They come in for the night, and pay a penny, twopence, or threepence. They can get a room at any price. They get a better place at twopence, and a sort of bed at threepence ; and these parties go out with their basket in the morning, and they never return, or they may return, as a matter of course. But that is considered a very respectable place of the kind, and is mostly occupied by permanent lodgers, having families too. 3051. Of those whom youhave met in these tenements, how many do j'ou think have a regular house there of their own, and have not lodgers? — I could not say. 3052. Was there a greater number of lodgers or of persons having a house and furniture.'' — The greater number of the 400 had what they called a house — there was one Shaw a shoe- maker, wlio had a flat which he let out to parties for so much a week — some at 9d., some at Is., some at 6d. Then these parties again subset to lodgers. They have a spare bed which they let from 2d. or 3d. a night. Those who pay Is. a week consider themselves permanent tenants, tliough sometimes the landlords take the door off the hinges, and take out the windows — for they cannot drive these persons out otherwise when they don't pay the rent. 3053. Are these people simply passing through ? — No. They will remain in that way for years. They find a livelihood; by various contrivances. 3054. Of what nation are they, Scotch, English, or Irish.'' — A great majority of these folks were Irish — there was only one foreigner. There were some three or four English. 3055. You are aware that persons receiving aid from the public charities, receive it un- equally in several instances. Have you observed that those who received the larger allow- ances were better conducted than those who received the smaller ? — The amount is just according as the parties have a good speaker there for them ; but I am not aware that taking them as a whole, the difference of money made a difference of conduct. The difference of money received made no difference upon their habits. 3056. Supposing the sum increase so as sufficiently to provide food and clothing, would that alter their habits ? — I doubt it. The habits are so deeply implanted, that it would be the last resource to make them go into the charity workhouse. They are generally a little depraved in their habits before they make application. They have sunk so low in their own estimation, that they have lost all self-respect. I have known instances where par- ties would borrow from every body rather than apply for relief at the charity workhouse. The workhouse is considered to be for destitute widows and old men. I know some masons who have got relief on account of age, and they go about among their old acquaint- ances, getting a halfpenny or penny from one, snuff from another, and so on ; and we expected them to call now and then on these old acquaintances — who say they are glad to see old James or John — then the man comes home tipsy. Just from kindness to the old people. 3057. Do you think this is the effect of self-degradation ? — Yes, I do, and real want; but many would starve rather than, go to tlie charity workhouse. 3058. What means could you suggest for remedying the evil ? — I see no other means, but doing all we can to encourage employment.. 3059. Do you conceive that education is a means ? — Education and employment. Educa- tion with religious instruction, I consider to be of use, added to temperance. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 177 306L Looking at the means of preventing the increase of pauperism and misery among the poor, you think the increase of allowance would not materially improve their condi- tion ? — No, I don't believe it would prevent any more applying for parish aid. The matter of amount in giving relief, would not diminish or increase the number of applicants. Still it would be the same class that are driven to sheer destitution, who would apply, except in such circumstances as have occurred in the present year, it might limit their other sources of relief, because parties knowing they had proper relief, would not contribute to their support. 3062. You mentioned just now that there was great reluctance among the working classes to apply to the charity workhouse ? — -Yes, they consider it a desperate thing to apply there, either in the city or in the rural districts. 3063. In the event of the workhouse being enlarged, so as to admit a greater number of paupers, do you think the parties you speak of would be more inclined to go to the workhouse then, than they are now to apply 1 — Ts^o, not the able-bodied ; but the old people would, for they would then be better provided for than now. 30G4. Though the charity workhouse, if sufficiently enlarged, would provide to a suffi- cient extent for parties who had fallen into the wretched circumstances you speak of; are you of opinion that the workhouse would operate as a check to any extent on the feeling of parties under these circumstances! — I don't know that it would operate on parties fall- ing into destitution ; but it would operate as a check on some calling for relief. Taking them away from their associates would be the means of making them not apply at all ; and beg they dare not. 3065. But then the reluctance to apply might exist under any of those circumstances of extreme destitution of which you now speak ; and in consequence the workhouse, as a preventive of pauperism would, in that instance, be almost useless ? — Oh, there are always plenty of destitute characters ready to go into it. The great object and benefit of a workhouse would be that, where the parties are very depraved, their young family would be protected from misery and crime. I can conceive the case of a woman with children, who never had a husband. The managers sometimes give 8s., 10s., or 12s. in the six weeks, according to the number of children ; but I hardly ever knew a case in which these children became respectable members of society. From the very class they were trained in, and from the notions they imbibed, they became depraved. I look upon their homes as nurseries of crime, and think there is a necessity for some discipline to meet such cases, as it would be better to maintain them as orphans than thieves, and a great deal cheaper. 3066. If it were possible to enlarge the kirk-sessions, and to bring a great staff of elders and deacons to bear upon them, so that each should have a definite range, and the cases were strictly looked after, and an interest taken in their moral and religious welfare, do you think that such means would prevent their falling into vicious habits ? — No, I don't think it woidd. The only way would be to take them from the class they are in the habit of being among. And I know that many poor people, who pretend to be most godly, are the best at cheating the elders and clergy, and getting most in charity. I have known a woman — old Ailsie, lie over her window and watch for the comingof the minister or elder, and then get her bible down, and seem very well employed in reading it when the visitor came ; but whenever his back was turned, the bible would be put aside, and she would go to a neighbour and say, Mr such and such was in ; he gave me a long prayer to-day, and he gave me a shilling before he went away. They lose all respect for themselves. They make religion a cloak for working on the sympathies of those who are most able and willing to serve them. 3067. But admitting there are such characters, yet if they were subject to parochial in- spection by elders or deacons who could ascertain their characters, do you think that the evil would be corrected to a great extent I — I am sure I could not positively say. I know a great deal is done by the Established clergy of late ; likewise by the dissenters. I am not aware that they have had much success. If the object of the parties is to get on the old men's society or the old women's society, they are very religious, and attend Sabbath schools, and get certificates, and just make gammon of it all the next day among their associates. 3068. You discovered their hypocrisy in a number of instances. Now, if there were a regular inspection going on upon a uniform system, don't you think the elders and deacons would come to make the discovery just as you have done, and when such cases occurred sufficient checks might be applied? — No, Mr Guthrie's is very complete, but I have never seen much difference. The New North parish I consider the best organized that has come under my notice, and the elders are the most zealous men I ever knew in connexion with the poor. They visit them regularly, and attend them every Sabbath. They take more concern than could be looked for, except from a higher motive — their eternal salvation. The people say the elder is a very good man ; but if they would give us a quartern loaf rather than a long prayer, we would be better off". And you find a number that attend the t Sabbath schools who are Catholics at the same time, who go to mass in the morning and at- tend one of the schools in the evening. They have a room, and get a number of old people together, and these attend there at night and are at mass in the morning. 3069. Then the fact of such parties receiving with good nature the visits of the Pres- byterian clergy, would not form a presumption that they had a moral effect on these parties 1 — They have not a moral effect. 3070. The system has not produced any appreciable benefit with reference to the state of the parish ? — Not on the adults. I know some children that are very much improved at- tending Heriot schools — those who used to go about cursing and swearing. I can see that children have been picked up and saved, but I don't consider the old people care a pin about it. 2 A Examinations. Mr J. Wri^rhf. IG March 1843. 178 MINUTES OF E\aDENCE TAIvEN BEFORE TIIE Rcuminations. S071. Do j'ou spoak of the children as a class, or with reference to individual cases. Mr I w ■ If ^® '^ your opinion that the system is really effectual in reclaiming a very considerable num- ii< Mh-cIi il^x tcr of children? — I could not say. I speak of individual cases. I have seen children running about the street cursing and swearing. They have taken up a notion of education from other children, and instead of swearing they are telling about the stars and the moon, and their lessons in geography. They have got into a free school, Ileriot's, or some others. 3072. You refer to individual cases? — Yes, I never visited any of these schools myself. I Lave never taken any interest directly in their proceedings. 3073. It has been suggested that a line should be drawn betwixt those who are worthy and godly, and those who are not. What would be the effect of drawing a line such as that ? — I am not sure of that. It is a question which I could not answer. 3074. Do you think it would have a good moral effect, or would lead to hypocrisy ? — Oh, certainly; it would lead to hypocrisy, for those who put on the cloak of hypocrisy, most generally receive best ; and 1 do not know any who, as a class, are better off than the Irish. All are very good at their profession, but I take the Irish as the best. 3075. They can tell their story belter ? — Yes ; they can put themselves in any position almost, to excite your sympathies. 307G. Does it consist with your knowledge that there is mucli application by letter to charitable individuals ? — It does not consist with my knowledge. It consists with my know- ledge, that some gentlemen in the town are more liberal than others. People go and tell them their story ; but that is more to got their names to the papers and aid from their pockets. 3077. Are there professional letter writers for the poor 1 — There are one or two in the Cowgate. 3078. What sort of people are they ? — They are like the poor themselves. Some are writers fallen into distress, having lost their character in their profession, some by intem- perance. 3079. Writers to the signet ? — Yes, there is one I know. He was a very clever fellow ; but has fallen into habits of dissipation. He will write a letter for a gill, or anything. I know he writes a great many letters. Many who come to such persons give them a i)int of ale, and then they go and write their letters. For instance, I could undertake to send Irishmen to Alexander Craig, who is a very benevolent man ; they would not come away without a recommendation. The Craigs give more to the poor than any I know. They cannot send away the poor from their door ; they are often imposed upon. They cannot say no ; and they are very angry at others who can say no. 3080. That does a great deal of mischief? — Yes. He finds some very destitute cases. They get his name ; and when they come to any one who knows Mr Craig, they generally pay deference to it. At least I would do so more than to some others. With regard to parties who signed lines, I consider that, on no account, should lines be signed by sellers of provisions or publicans — spirit dealers. They have a direct interest in the parties receiv- ing relief; and they very often give a very inadequate article for the money they get. 3081. You have seen a great deal of the working classes .'' — Do you thiid< there is any foun- dation for the supposition, that they come flocking to towns, from the difficulty of obtaining cottages in the country parishes? — N'>; I am not aware of any coming from a difficulty in obtaining cottages. But I believt a great many come to the town for employment. 3082. You have no idea that they are turned adrift from the country parishes, and thus forced into the towns 1 — Not from my own personal knowledge. I had to make a motion before the police board, when a gentleman gave me authority, on his own personal know- ledge, to state, that money was given to parties to send them into town, to put them in the way of cowfeeding, &c. Dr Renton is my authority for saying that a sum of money was given to a man to set him up as a cowfeeder. 3083. But you know no case from your own knowledge '' — Not from my own knowledge. I spoke merely from the information of others ; but I know it is a very common thing in the country for quarrymen or farm-servants to be turned adrift, and young men taken in their stead. They hang on for a year or two, and then try to get work in the town as labourers ; • there is no use in their going back where they left, as in a place like Denholm (in Rox- burghshire), there is no work suitable for them. 3084. Then the sole motive from which they come is to get employment? — Yes ; being up in years the country lairds won't have them. 3085. With regard to able-bodied persons, would it bo desirable to alter the law as to granting them relief ? — I have thought over that subject a good deal, and I must say that I think the feeling of the working classes is decidedly against receiving parochial relief: but, within the last year or two, a great change in their views on the subject has taken place, from the discussion of the charter. They are beginning to think, and they are determined to act upon it, that they should demand relief, or take it. They look on the system of legislation as merely plundering them ; and if they are not employed, they are determined to help themselves. For instance, the corn laws are brought up ; they say you won't re- peal them, we cannot get work, and we won't be banished. On the plea of emigration, we msist on relief, or we shall take it. I know that this doctrine is held by a large class, from whom I expected other things ; they consider it a matter of right. 3086. But would you think it desirable to give relief to the able-bodied ? — In the present excitement it would be very proper, because I think it will be a war betwixt poverty and property, — the class above the poor are fast merging into the same state. 3087. Would it not make them improvident? — Yes. In England, where I worked, men snapped their fingers in the face of his master — he had relief — he got so much that he could dispense work. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 17& -Yes ; about the year 1829 E; 3088. That was before the new poor law amendment act ?- or 1830. 3089. Do yon think the feeling you mention has been increasing for some little time, or has it merely arisen from the general distress in trade ? — That feeling took its rise about 1833 or 1834, at the time I was vice-president of the trades' union, and the various trades appointed delegates to conduct a journal. I was elected by the masons to manage the journal on their part ; and among other arguments, that subject was first handled at the time. It made considerable progress, till once a division took place among ourselves as to editing the journal. There was a lad named Biggar who was our editor, who revised all the articles. He insisted on putting in one article of his own upon Mr Abercromby'B election for the city. He printed that, and we got into difficulty ; for whenever the journal was circulated, parties refused to pay us,. — political articles not being allowed. We then fell on 13iggar, and Biggar left the town. Every trade had an agency, and communicated through the whole country. 3090. But trades' unions are different from political unions ? — Quite distinct. But in our discussions we could not avoid mixing up with them political economy', and entering on the corn laws and poor laws. Then we said if you don't take off these laws we must have support ; this was openly avowed for the last few years. If you won't repeal these bad laws, we have a right to take bread wherever we can find it ; it is a system of class legis- lation, and I know a scheme was set up eight or nine months ago, to give passive resistance to the law being carried out by parties who had edited the 'journal.' They said people should go and take food in a peaceable manner. That none should resist when apprehended, but that they should let the police take them up for stealing bread. They knew that it was not in the power of the government to put the whole working classes in prison ; and then came the provision for the unemployed in the Meadows, which occupied their thoughts in a new way, and the thing was never practically carried into effect, but the demonstration was made with a view to the movement being so organized, that it should be carried into effect by going in 50 or 100 in a body all over the country— and you might have used them as you pleased, you would not have heard a murmur. 3091. So trades' unions still continue ? — Yes. 1 have not been connected with them for eight or ten years — I have changed my views. But masters have unions too. 3092. Do you think there is an increase of trade in consequence of the declining state of the unions ? — No, I can't say, but it has given the masters a great deal more confidence to engage in work. 3093. Do you know that the trades' unions are still kept up among the masons ? — Yes . — and the shoemakers, &c. A man in the employment of a shoemaker was asked to do a job in a particular way — not in the way the trade does the thing. The two quarrelled, and the master turned the man adrift. A meeting of the trade was called, and a strike ordered against the shop. One man walked up and down before the door. If a man went in to get work, he watched till he came out, and told him that was a black shop just now, — he would not dare to take work under the circumstances ; and if he did take employment he would be fined a guinea afterwards. 3094. When was that ?— About six months ago. He got the better. His work was taken at night to other shops. I have a shoe shop just now, and we got it done. 8095. Do you know any, who, under this intimidation, dare not take employment? — No, I know none. The masons, if there be a reduction of wages, would strike against the master, notwithstanding the depression. The works at the railway were carried on under a strike by black sheep, and none were harmed, though some were fined. 8096. What is the present rate of masons' wages ? — 3s. 4d. a day in summer ; but off this they have to provide tools, and great deal lost time. 3097- What is the difference betwixt that and the best rate ? — That is the best rate. I never had a pound. Sometimes the wages were 14s. and 15s. in summer, when I was a mason. 3098. They were higher then than in more prosperous times? — Yes. The union struck masons' wages at 14s. for winter, — from the 2d of November till the 2d of February ; from the 2d of February till the first week of March, at 1 6s. ; from the middle of March to No- vember at 1/. a week — 3s. 4d. a day. 3099. If masons' wages were reduced, would there be a greater quantity of building? — There would have been a greater quantity had no trades' unions been in existence, but not now. I kept a diary of what masons' wages were, when they had 12s. or 15s. a week, and they did not average above 10s. 3100. You state that you thought there should be an assessment, because the chartists were determined to demand and take by force ; and therefore you said it was necessary to concede their demand. Supposing the country were not under the influence of such con- siderations, would you advise an assessment for able-bodied men? — No, I don't think it would require it. 3101. Would it injure their industrious habits 1 — Yes, it would. I believe they will never give up that question till once they get off the corn laws, which they believe to be at the bottom of all their grievances. 3102. But without reference to the feelings which you say exist among the working- classes with regard to the corn laws : Do you think an alteration of the law should be made as to able-bodied men 1 — No, they never thought of such a thing. The question was raised only as a matter of political rights, injustice being done them. 3103. But without reference to political considerations ? — No ; they look upon it as a positive insult to them. They say, give us justice — we don't want your poor laws. They ixairtinat.i»min&tiun!i. Ut J. Wright. II Muroli 1843. for a pound or so. The savings-banks take sums up to any amount from the friendly societies ; but the yearly societies are not under the friendly societies' act, and are restricted to 150/. 3121. Why don't they come under the friendly societies' act 1 — Because it would not serve their purpose. You could not get quit of a set of men. A man sick for three months before the society breaks up, when he applies to be taken into the society for the next year is not admitted. He may have been paying for eight or ten years, and never till then come on the society ; but they say, you are in bad health, and they reject him, as an entrant to the new society. We take in men in pretty good health ; consequently a man, after being in good health for a considerable time, may come most to need help when it is not given under the system of such societies. Under the friendly societies' act you cannot dissolve at the end of the year ; and when a man becomes badly, he just continues a burden, consequently there is no division. Then the friendly societies' act does not recognize saving funds, and the great inducement to join these societies is to save the 21. 12s. 3122. Do you know how many societies under the act are in Edinburgh ? — No ; but that may be ascertained from the justice-of-peace office. A great many trades that have regu- lar unions, have generally a standing friendly society — that is, as distinguished from a yearly friendly society. 3123. Is it usual to have nrtoney in the savings-bank ? — I should say there are not half of the working people who have money in them. 3124. Why .' — Because I know a great many other parties who continue to have two or three pay-books there. The savings-banks take 30/. ; and if I have a wife, a son, and a daughter, I could have four books and 30/. in each of their names. I receive 3| percent, while only 2 per cent, is given by the ordinary banks. Again, I have an ojjportunity of sending for 2/., 4/., or 5?., which a large bank would not be troubled with, and you can send 10s. or any small sums to the savings-banks. In consequence, I know that a great many who have shops and are fighting away, have pass-books. 3125. Do you think that a common practice ? — It is a practice with a great many. They put into the savings-bank in the character of servants and housekeepers. If I had a book there, I would not put myself in as a merchant, but as a mason, 1 first commenced saving in the savings-bank. The book in my own name was filled to the amount of 30/. ; then there was a book in the name of the wife, and then we had 60/. We put another in the child's name, which gave other 30/. ; and then a fourth in the same way. AVhen the four books were filled, I had 120/. Then you think of some speculation — say a house to buy. You take the rent of the house and place it only in a book, and so on till once you get back your own money. Now you are putting in the money in a character which you don't really sustain in the community ; and I know that this is done in many instances. I accumulated funds in that way, and advised a great many of the working classes to get some little thing there. If they get a few pounds, they are anxious to get a larger sum. If they get the length of a 5/. note, they would rather go with an old coat than draw their money. They are anxious to make it 10/. ; and I have seen a great many of the working men succeed in that way to a considerable extent. But I have known more saving out of that youth's society than from any other during my connexion with the working classes. When one member is getting on, he gives a stimulus to others. 1 once wrought in a squad in Rutland Square, where there were often twenty or thirty men ; but among the hewers there was not one who did not become a saver after example. We — the Hutchison squad — were considered among the trade to have most wealth, and to be most free in spending it. Though we would not tipple and drink, we would upon any given occasion come out more genteel, and did the thing in proper style, spending often 3/. or 4/. And I have taken round their book on the Saturday night, saying — you, James, can give 2s. 6d. ; and then I have reasoned with them— If you have a wife it will cost so much ; and I got so much from them to put into the bank, and gave them their book on the Monday morn- ing. Some of them would buy a watch ; another would dress himself up, and become quite a dandy, according to the taste of the individual. 3120. Do you think this spirit of independence would be injured, if relief under certain circumstances were given to able-bodied men in the workhouse 1 — Going to the workhouse is looked upon with a kind of horror ; and the feelings of the parties are not envied by their acquaintance, 3127. Do you attribute much of the good efi'ect of this young men's society to the exer- tions made to perfect your education ? — Yes. 3128. You contributed much to the improvement of your education and enlargement of your mind through those means .'' — Undoubtedly. Out of 500 members, there were not less than 300 who were capable of taking part in any discussion, on any subject. 3129. And a great proportion of these have in consequence elevated themselves above the working classes 1 — Yes ; and that class who imbibed their notions when very young, are not the class who are led away by any O'Connors or demagogues that may come here. Some of our men came forward in opposition to Feargus O'Connor, and people of that kind, at the time there was a great dust on the Calton Hill. I know it was members of the youth's society that supported one Brewster a minister, and one Fraser, who opposed O'Connor. 3130. Would you not think it one of the greatest improvements, in making provisions with reference to pauperism, that there should be a thorough system of education ? — Most undoubtedly ; 1 have always been of that mind. 3131. Have you any suggestions to make with reference to the poor laws? — Centraliza- tion is the only way that has occurred to me as the best. To break up the small country POOR LAW INQUIRY COlINnSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 18d parishes ; and have the poor supported in three preat divisions, namely, a north, a vilest, and an east ; and that the whole community of Scotland should be taxed equally for the poor. I would do away with the notion that living three years on this side of the street, and three years on that, should make any difference. And I think it would be a duty and an advantage, that the managers of the local poor should follow one particular form ; they would save more money, and put an end besides to a great deal of jarring and ill feeling. Many really believe that a landed proprietor does not pay his proportion to the poor laws, whereas he pays a considerable proportion. 8132. Would you propose an assessment over the whole country.? — Over the whole country ; the central points being Glasgow for the west, Edinburgh for the east, and Perth or Aberdeen for the north. I would have one board to assess and collect. I have no notion of a great many small boards. A great deal of machinery and expense would be saved. 3133. But do you think the heritors would pay so much attention to the poor of their own parish, if funds were contributed over a whole district ? — I believe they would ; for the effect of their having the poor on the one hand, and their having the fear of assessment on the other, is, that one feeling checks the other. Their liberality is restrained when they think of the assessment ; and they strive to throw the poor on some other party ; whereas if they had only to pass an order upon a general fund, they would pay more attention to the poor, knowing that they had to pay only a share for themselves over the whole country. 3134. Do you think it possible to maintain the poor adequately by collections at the church doors ! — No ; I don't think it. That notion is given up. I am a dissenter myself, but I know there is a feeling among many of the Establishment that they ought not to give at the church doors — not because they are not disposed to give in charity, but because they have no control over those who have the management, except it be an elder, who loses his influence because he is not a rate-payer. The dissenting churches keep their collection towards their own support, and the extinction of their debt, for there are none of them without debt ; and they have monthly or quarterly meetings for the poor. Such a congre- gation as Dr J3rown's, being very wealthy, can raise considerable sums ; but in such a congregation as Mr }3ruce's in the Cowgate, they have only one collection for the purpose in the year. They don't think they are bound to give anything to the workhouse, seeing they are legally assessed ; for a great majority of them are rate-payers, while a great number of the Established church are not rate-payers. From an idea that some are exempted, it is imagined that the whole are exempted. 3135. But if there were no assessment, would not the church door collections increase ? — I don't think that voluntary liberality would bring up money, though Dr Chalmers re- commends it. 3130. Do you not think that the existence of an assessment keeps down the collections at the church doors? — No; I don't think so. They would let oft" a great many who ought to pay. Many do not give at the church doors well able to give. 3137. How should pai-ties be chosen to administer the funds? — That part of it never struck me. I would consider that there might be a board of three or four to lay on the assessment on returns coming from the different parishes, who might be elected to manage the poor in that district. I would have individuals connected with the local districts, in the particular districts in which the poor reside, such as the parish system with the minister and elders. Then the relief would be given by their making a draft on the fund raised by assessment. 3138. Do you think these local boards would be as economical in the distribution of the funds, or would they be more liberal if they knew that the funds would not be raised from themselves, but be spread over a large district ? — I believe they would be more liberal. I believe there are many whose liberality is restrained by the fear of their having to pay. 3139. But would they not become too liberal ? — It is quite possible. There is scarcely any matter may not be pushed too far. There must be some check. It is a matter of detail. I never tried to devise a plan with reference to the poor ; but I was always clearly of opinion that there should be only one assessment over the whole kingdom. Exammati"**. Mr J. Wright. 16 Uareh U4'.t. 184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examiiutlona. 17 March 1843. Friday, llth March 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Tvvisleton, Esq,, Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Mr .1. Stnart. J. Stuart, Esq., Governor of the Perth Penitentiary, Examined : — 3140. You are governor of the general prison at Perth ? — I am. 3141. Had you formerly held the situation of superintendent of police in Edinburgh ? — Yes. 3142. How long? — Nearly fifteen j-ears. 3143. When did you leave it ? — In December last. 3144. Did it fall within the scope of your duties to be much acquainted with the habits and mode of life of the lower classes of the population of Edinburgh? — It did. 3145. Did you observe any material alteration in their state as to destitution or otherwise, during the latter years ? — I did. 3146. For the worse ?— For the worse decidedly. 3147. Have you anj' means of knowing the mode of life, or the habits of the persons receiving parochial relief in Edinburgh ? — Yes. 3148. Even with the relief they get, are they in a destitute state ?— Very destitute and profligate. Those who are unable to work are entirely destitute ; those who can work but a little are very Ul off; and others who are inclined to work can get no employment. 3149. Were there many persons in Edinburgh who had a legal claim of parochial relief, and did not receive it, in yoiu" time ? — I am not aware that there are persons who had a legal claim who did not receive it to a certain extent. 3150. Were you equally acquainted with the condition of the poor in the West Church })arish as in the city ? — Yes, the jurisdiction of the police extends over nearly all the West Church parish. 3151. What is the general occupation of the poor who receive parochial relief in the AVcst Church parish ? — Much the same as in the city. 3152. You say the relief they receive is inadequate ? — Very inadequate. Many go about s<'lling spimks and small wares of various kinds. I speak of the description of persons brought to the office for begging. 3153. Does that happen frequently? — Yes, very fi-equently. 3154. Are those persons having parish relief? — Yes. 3155. AVere they generally inhabitants of Edinburgh, or from a distance? — ^A great pro- portion of them are inhabitants of Edinburgh, and a very large number of them Insh. 3156. Can you form any judgment wliether they were brought to that state of destitution by intemperance or misfortune ? — Perhaps the greater part by intemperance. 3157. Did it fall within your observation that people reduced to poverty by other causes betook themselves to spirituous liquors ? — I believe it has been frequently the case. 3158. Have you observed the state of the children of such people ? — They are very desti- tute. A very great proportion are turned out to beg, and they become either common thieves or prostitutes. ^ one of them have education, except those who went to the charity schools ; a great number have no education at all. 3159. And as they grow up tliey betake themselves to criminal courses ? — Yes. 3160. Do you find that prevail in families or in individuals ? — Families. 3161. Is it your opinion that if proper pains had been taken, especially with the children, they would have been saved from that course in general ? — I believe so. 3162. Did you find frequently that the children turned out ill whose parents were well conducted people ? — No : very seldom. 3163. Did you perceive any difference in the mode of life — the intemperance or habits of the poor in the city parishes, and those in the West Kirk ; or ai'e they pretty nmch on the same footing ? — They are pretty much on the same footing. I have merely seen them in the police-office. 3164. Have you had occasion to visit their dwellings ? — Never. 3165. Was there much crime among the poor generally ? — A gi'cat deal of crime. 3166. They do not improve by begging ? — No : a very great munber of small crimes are committed by beggars. 3167. And on such occasions they are brought before the police authorities? — Yes. 3168. Have you any reason to suppose that if the parish allowance had been increased it would have tended to suppress, those criminal habits ? — In many csises, but not in all. Many parents would make a bad use of the aUovvancc. POOE LAW INQUIRY COAIMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 185 3169. You think it would rather increase the intemperance of those who are given to it ? Exaniiuations. — Decidedly. 3170. Did it consist with your knowledge that many of the people receiving parish relief h ji^vch 1843 went to the country to beg ?— I have every reason to believe that they did. 3171. That did not come under your official situation ? — No ; but I have seen those who received parochial allowance in the country, and I have no doubt they went there with a basket of smaU wares for the jjurpose of begging ; but I did not see them in the act of begging. 3172. I suppose that very young people committed for offences go back to the same course when they leave prison ? — Almost entirely ; and probably advance in crime till they are convicted of higher offences. 3173. Did it appear to }T3u that the number of small shops selling spirits has any effect out he habits of the lower classes ? — I am a strong advocate for reducing their number, as they have that tendency. 3174. Do you conceive that if the number were reduced, those that remain would become more respectable ? — -Yes ; and they would keep more regular hours, and be moi'c particular in the sort of company they admitted. 3175. Have you had frequent complaints against keepers of public houses for improper conduct ?— Very frequently. 317(5. Were they reduced in number in your time? — They have been very much reduced in number within the last six or seven years. The authorities have been going on annually reducing them, partlcidarly in that part of the county situated within the bounds of the Edinburgh police ; the city not in the same proportion. 3177. Have you any recollection of the extent to which they were reduced when you were in the police ?— I got a return of it last year, but I do not recollect the nuiyber at this moment. 3178. Do you think it woidd be possible to put the public houses on such a system as woidd prevent them selling to the poor people, — to what you would call paupers, — to regu- late them in such a way as to prevent them encom-aging poor people drinking ? — It would be rather difficult to prevent it. They are prevented now from entertaining children imder fourteen years of age, women of profligate character, and thieves. 3179. Could this regulation not be extended to those receiving parochial relief ?— If you could prove that the publican knew, at the time he gave the drink, that it was to a pauper, it might be extended to paupers ; but there is the difficulty. 3180. Most of the publicans are in a situation to pay poor rates? — I shoiild think all of them. 3181. Is it, generally speaking, in the public houses that the poor get their spirits ? — Yes ; but perhaps they do not go to the public houses at all times, — they send out for it to the public houses, and drink it in their own houses. 3182. They can obtain it from small grocers ? — Yes. 3183. Should you say, from your cxpei'ience, that it was a bad practice to license grocers' shops, and make them spirit cellars ?■ — I think it is a very bad practice ; it is very apt to teach servant girls to drink drams. 3184. Suppose the licensing system to be put on a proper footing, and that only persons of respectable character were allowed to keep public houses, would that not be a great means of diminishing the dissipated habits of the poor ? — It would have that tendency. Unfor- tunately, the low pulilicans have frequently no stock ; and they receive any sort of people, for the purpose of enabling them to make up their bills. 3185. "V^'ould it not be easy for the police to prevent that sort of thing, supposing the public houses were put under their control ?■ — It would be a very simple matter for the police to prevent it, if the law were stringent enough. 318G. Do you think it would be of advantage to raise the rate of license, in order to bring more respectable people into the trade ? — Yes, or to raise the rents of the houses. 3187. What is the rental of the lowest public house ? — I do not think there is any limit to the rents in practice. The justices of the peace have considered the rents of late years, and I think 101. a year is the lowest rate spoken of; but on that subject I am not certain. 3188. Has the reduced number of public houses had a perceptible influence in checking intemperance ? — To a small extent ; still there are very low and profligate pubhc houses, and they have a very improper effect. 3189. What woidd be the tendency of laying great restrictions on public houses, in giving rise to the sale of spirits by unlicensed Individuals ? — That prevails to a great extent in this town. I remember some five or six pviblicans in the High Street, who were deprived of their licenses, and yet they sold spirits the same as if they had a license ; and the houses Avere so improperly kept, as to become a nuisance to the neighbourhood, so much so that I directed my people to report them to the excise, and they were fined severely. But I think it is the duty of the excise to stop that without the police interference. 3190. Might there not be danger In adopting stringent regulations, lest they should give rise to illicit sellers ? — I think it possible to prevent Illicit sales, — I have no doubt of that. 3191. You have no doubt on the subject ? — At all events. It would be easy to stop those glaring instances of it that I speak of. 3192. Do you think that much of pauperism arises from Intemperance and dissipated habits ? — ^I do. 3193. Most of it would, you say ? — Decidedly most of it. 3194. Did It fall within your notice whether the greater number of paupers were natives of the city, or persons fi-om a distance ? — The greater part of them are from Ireland. 186 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Examinations. 3195. That Is to say, of those that came within your cognizance at the police office ? — J Stuart E ^cs, I speak of thrtt merely. 17 March 1843. 3196. Do you find many from the highlands of Scotland? — A good number. 3197. Are you not of opinion that the reduction of the number of public houses would only increase the number of customers to those that remain? — It would have that ten- dency; but if you had a more respectable class of publicans, more regularity would be kept. They would not open theu- houses at imseasonablc hours, for the sake of their own cha- racter. 3198. How can you answer that the remaining portion of those keeping pubhc houses Avould be willing to resist the temptation of additional sales ? — My impression generally is, that were you to reduce the number, the publicans would be the more respectable. 3199. Would not some remain who would be entirely devoted to the supplying of the lower classes ? — Yes. 3200. Have you found that there has been gi-eat evil resulting from keeping open public houses during a part of the Sunday ? — I am quite aware of it. 3201. Does it come within your observation that a great portion of the Intemperance that exists in the city and suburbs, has taken place on the Saturday night and Sunday morn- ing ? — A great part of it. 3202. Woidd it not be a desirable thing that the act of parliament should be altered ? — Certainly. I have seen publicans turn persons out on the street at half-past ten on Sabbath morning in a state of intoxication. 3203. Would that exercise a considerable restraining influence on the habits of the lower classes ? — To a certain extent ; but they coidd send for liquors on the Saturday night. I have no doubt, however, it woidd operate to a certain extent. 3204. Did you observe any increase of crime since you were acquainted with the police ? — There has been an increase of petty crimes, but a decrease of more serious crimes. 3205. To what do you attribute this ? — The police act of 1826 required, after the third conviction, to remove the party to a higher court. 3206. ^ATiat woidd you think the only eflicient mode of restraining and preventing the increase of theft and other crimes ? — It is difficult to answer. A very great proportion of the common thieves of Edinburgh are persons who have received an allowance from the charity workhouse ; and a great nmnber are persons who have been brought up in the workliouse. 3207. Would you not think that the increase of crime from that source woidd be in some degree checked and prevented by additional means of education ? — I have no doubt of it. 3208. And by a more extensive pastoral superintendence ? — Yes. 3209. Would you put confidence in any police regulations, or other means devised for the effectual restraining and preventing of crimes ? — The police might assist. 3210. The question was, would you place confidence in any mere police regulations for })revcnting and restraining the crimes that exist to such an extent as at present ? — Decidedly ; if the police act were more severe, it would be of great service. 3211. It would merely restrain the evil, not subdue or eradicate it? — No. ' I do not exj)ect that. 3212. Have you persons in the general prison of Perth now who had been brought up as Edinburgh thieves lu the way you desci-ibe ? — Yes, two Avere discharged lately who were brought up in the charity workhouse, and we have one at present brought up in Leith. The parish authorities never looked after him, and the woman with whom they had boarded him neglected him, and he became a thief. This is his statement. 3213. How long was he in the workhouse ?-^I am not aware at all that he was in the workhouse. He was brought up by a woman in Lamieston, with whom he had been boarded by the managers of the parish. 3214. Supposing that public houses were reduced by one-half, and were put on a more respectable footing, and that the circumstance of their making larger gains made the busi- ness more profitable, would it put them more on their guard against breaking the regula- tions ? — Certainly. 3215. You stated that many low public houses began vnth little or nothing, and had to force a trade, woidd it not be an advantage that their gains should be put an end to alto- gether, as being mainly derived from the lower people ? — Yes. 3216. And any additional gain derived by the better class of houses would rather add to their respectability than otherwise ? — Surely. 3217. Have you had any experience in regard to those who have been released from prison as to their obtaining a livelihood afterwards ? — Yes. This is a most distressing part of my occupation. They have much difficidty in obtaining work. 3218. Supposing that there were institutions of workhouses under strict regulations, •would that relieve the difficidty to a certain extent ? — Most decidedly it woidd. If they were sent to the locality from whence they came, and kept till they got work, it would be a great matter ; but as they are placed, they are obliged to steal from necessity, although anxious to do well. 3219. Have you any experience of the fact of children from the workhouse having turned out thieves ? — A number of them have. 3220. Do you mean that a larger proportional number of children trained In the work- house have turned out thieves, than of children superintended by their parents in the lower ranks of life ?— Yes, that has often struck me. 3221. Have you any opportunity of kno'ft-ing the condition of the working classes, not paupers ? — Yes. POOR LAW mQUIRY COiBIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 187 3222. Do you think their condition is getting more comfortable now than formerly? — Certainly not. 3223. Do you know any of the causes why their condition has fallen off? — Want of work. 3224. Do you know If trades' unions have had any effect on their condition ? — I cannot answer that satisfactorily. 3225. Are there always a great number of able-bodied unemployed people about Edin- burgh In ordinary times? — No; I think the well-conducted tradesmen are seldom, in general, in want of employment ; a number of the ill conducted are at all times. 322 G. Are you aware whether fraud In the coal-trade In Edinburgh has been carried on to a considerable extent ? — Yes, that sort of crime prevailed to a great extent six or seven years ago, but leas latterlj^. 3227. How arc thd stolen coals disposed of? — -Frequently for spirits. 3228. Can you Inform us how the fraud Is committed and managed? — On one occasion an officer of mine was appointed to watch the carts coming in, and he saw the coals taken to public houses. 3229. Is It a common practice to convert the means of subsistence into spirituous liquors ? — Frequently I liave known persons getting supplies of meal and potatoes going immediately to dispose of them for whisky. 3230. Is there anything that your expeiience enables you to suggest to this Commission as an improvement in the condition of the lower classes, in addition to what you have already stated? — I have sometimes thought of it; but It is a difficult subject, and would require more consideration than I have been able to give it. 3231. Have you anything to suggest in regard to the poor laws ? — I am not prepared Avith anything just now. I would require time to think of the subject. 3232. Would you be disposed to give I'elief to able-bodied men out of employment ? — In some cases it would be necessary. 3233. Temporary rehef ? — Certainly. 3234. But would you give them a legal right to it, so that they could enforce their right ? — Decidedly not. Examinations. J. Stuart, Esq. 17 March laia. Mr Alexander Orroch, Examined: — 3235. Are you a medical man? — No, I am a bookbinder. 3236. You are a visitor of the destitute sick ? — Yes. 3237. Have you had an opportunity of seeing a great many of the lower classes in Edinburgh ? — Yes. 3238. "WTiat do you find to be the condition of the lower classes ? — They are in a very destitute state at present, and they have been so during the whole time I have been acquainted with the society, which is now eight or ten years. 3239. During the whole of that time you found them to be in a destitute state ? — Yes. 3240. Has any Improvement been taking place ? — No improvement. 3241. To what do you attribute that state of destitution ? — The first and primary cause is, I think, a want of the old parochial system of Scotland being carried Into effect. I have thought a good deal about It. There is another great cause which has been operating for a great many years back, and that Is Sabbath desecration. There was an alteration In regard to licenses some years ago, which has led to a great cause of destitution. Tliree ycai's ago a society was formed In Edinburgh, to try, by the force of public opinion, to shut the pubhc houses on Sunday. We took up statistical details in certain districts as to how many shops were open on Simday, and in one district, comprising the High Church parish, and the New North Church parish, we foimd 111 shops open, selluig drink. At that time there was a subdivision of parishes ; but the parishes which I speak of extended from the Castle HiU to the Tron Church on the one side, and from the CastlehlU to Carrubber's close on the other. 3242. Were these houses open during the hours of public Avorship ? — -The principal part of them were not ; but some of them were. 3243. Then you think the two first causes of destitution are, want of education and intemperate habits ? — Yes, especially religious education ; because you coidd scarcely believe the mass of Ignorance that prevails unless you were going amongst them. 3244. And these intemperate habits are Increased by the number of public houses, and by their being kept open on Sundays ? — I have no doubt of it. Another qyA has sprung up of late, — " little," or, as they arc called, " wee pawns," which are kept open during the Sabbath- day. A commissioner of police told me that he saw a woman carrying a bundle on a Sunday, — that he followed her into one of the wee paAvns, then Into a spirit shop, and from that to her own house. He allowed her to be In for two or three minutes ; he then opened the door, and found a number of people drinking whisky. The temptation Is, that they can get it so easily. The whole of their means is spent in this way, and when any distress comes upon them, they are brought upon the poor's funds. 3245. Woidd it not be of very great importance to improve the system of moral and reli- gious education amongst that class ? — ^It Is the only thing, as far as, I see, that can be done. You would acquu-e a correct knowledge of the people that you are going amongst ; if the old Scottish parochial system were In operation In Edinburgh, and each visitor, kno-ning the dass of the people he was going amongst, would know what to give ; but, more than this, he could bring his Influence to bear upon the working class. Some distressing cases have Mr A. Orroclf. 188 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr A. Orrock. 1 7 March 1843. come under my observation, and one I beg to mention. A father of a family was taken away, and left his widow with young children. He died of a fever. Wlicn at his employ- ment, he had 12s. a week. The mother took fever, and was removed to the infirmary. We got a nurse tor the infant at the breast. The oldest boy, ten years of age, we got him into a place, where he got at first Is. 6d. a week. I was inquiring lately after him at his master, and I find that his wages have increased to 5s. a week. The youngest boy gets 2s. Gd. a week, and the mother has 28. a week from the parish. 324(5. Was the father a man of respectable character ? — I have no knowledge as to that ; but the mother is a decent woman, and has brought up her children in a decent way. 3247. Do you tliink it woidd be advantageous to diminish the number of public houses ? — There are a great deal too many of them. 3248. Would you be apprehensive, if this were done, that it would increase the sale of spirits illieifly ? — I have heard it said that it would ; but I do not think it would have that effect. 3249. Could a proper check be kept in regard to this by the police? — Yes, I have no doubt it might be kept down. 3250. Have you had occasion to visit persons receiving parochial relief in Edinburgh? — Yes, a great many. 3251. Do you think the amount of relief sufficient to maintain them independently of other assistance ? — No, it is mere starvation. 3252. Do you think the smallness of the allowance produces a bad effect on paupers, by causing them to have recourse to other means of subsistence ? — I do not know. 3253. Do you know persons receiving parochial relief, who go about begging ? — ^Not abso- lutely begging ; but a great many go about with baskets. No doubt they may have them as a cloak for begging ; but then they liave no other mode of eking out the small allowance they get from the charity workhouse. 3254. Have you paid much attention to the operation of the poor laws in Edinburgh ? — I think that the evU is just this, — they cannot have a sufficient check on those who receive pensions. Many, whenever they get their allowance, drink it. They have a very efficient inspector, an excellent man ; but he has the charge of 1300 pensioners, and it is impossible that he can have a sufficient knowledge of the persons receiving the allowance. This is within the city, and does not extend to the West Church. 3255. Considering the state of pauperism now existing, do you thmk that proper checks might be exercised by kirk-sessions and deacons to restore the parishes in Edinburgh to the condition of country parishes ? — Yes ; there is some information in regard to this question in an old statistical account of Scotland, published by Provost Creech. He di-aws a com- parison between the state of the city in 1763 and 1783. In 1763, he states that the minis- ters visited, catechised, and instructed the people in religious knowledge; that in 1783, this was altogether discontinued, except by a few ; and as an evidence of the state of morals at that time, thei'e were oidy five brothels in the city. In 1783, when visiting ceased, the brothels had increased twenty-fold, and the number of those poor women had increased to a hundred-fold. The collections in 1763 amounted to 1500/. ; in 1783, they decreased to 1000/., — so much had church-going habits been given up, and a religious spirit departed from the people. The cost of maintaining the house of correction in 17G3 was 27/., 16s. ; in 1799 it had increased to 300/. ; and then the authorities were forced to lay the foundation of a new brideweU, which cost 12,000/.. Since that time, the city has been degenerating, — I mean since the system of parochial visitation and instruction has in a gi'eat measiu-e been given up. 3256. What was the population in Edinburgh in 1763 ? — I do not know ; but the differ- ence between the population in 1763 and 1783 could not have been much, and even onward to 1799. It had been increasing, no doubt, but not to a very great extent. 3257. In order to improve the condition of the working classes in point of education, would you recommend the maclainery of elders and deacons ? — Yes. 3258. Would you prefer that to paid inspectors ? — Yes ; they would feel an interest in improving not only their temporal bvit spiritual concerns, in getting them to attend church, and raising them to a higher state of moral standing altogether. 3259. Do you think it woidd be gratifying to the poor people to receive such attention from the minister and elder ? — ^Yes ; I know cases of this description. A good deal of attention is paid to the poor in this way in some parishes, and the visits are received with the greatest kindness. 3260. Would a dissenter be offended if a minister of the Established church went into his house to visit in this way ? — rSome dissenters might ; but I do not think that this would be a general feeling. 3261. Do you think arrangements might be made by kirk-sessions for visiting the poor? — I have not thought much on that. 3262. Do the visitations of the Destitute Sick Society extend all over Edinburgh, and to the West Church also ? — Yes. The district I have is the New North parish. I have had that district for five years, — Mr Brown's parish. 3263. Is the character of those receiving parochial relief good, so far as you know?— Some of them are decent honest people ; some the contraiy. 3264. Do you think it would be an advantage to increase the allowance ? — Yes. A poor woman left a widow vnth four or five children, and without any other ^dsible means of subsistence, receives only 15s. from the charity workhouse in six weeks. When she has paid her rent off this, she has very little left for the maintenance of herself and children. POOE LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOE SCOTLAND. 189 3265. You have known some change in the superintendence of the poor in the Nev? North parish by the clergyman ? — Yes, a very great change. 326G. What has been the result? — It is not very long since it commenced. 3267. How long since ? — Two years. The New North parish used to be up about the Castlehill ; and what was the old parish is now the new. 3268. Where is the New North church ? — It is in Brighton Street, — it is a rented church. The new assembly hall is to be the parish church when it is ready. 3269. Where does the parish commence and extend to ?— It commences at one of the sides of Blair Street, and goes up to the meal-market stairs, up the Cowgate, and takes in- the closes between that part of the Cowgate and High Street. It is one of the most ple^- beian parislies in Edinburgh. 3270. The old chiu-ch is cast of that ? — Yes, it is below the Tron Clim'ch. 3271. Since this change of system in the parish which you aUuded to, have you observed any change in the manners of the people ?— I cannot say I have. A great deal of means have been used ; and it will take some time before any great change is observed. More of the people are now going to chiu-ch. We have an active missionaiy, Mr Fairley, kept by the congregation, who goes regidarly amongst them. So does Mr Brown. He has a meeting on the Sabbath evenings, and it is completely filled by people who never before used to attend chiu"ch. 3272. In the course of your experience in the parish, have you observed instances of hypocrisy, — persons pretending to be godly in presence of the minister and elders, and show- ing a different feeling in their absence ? — 1 have heard of such cases, but I cannot say that any of them have come under my observation. I think they must be very few. 3273. Do you thmk there is an improvement generally in the moral habits of the people? — There is an improvement in some of them. A good many go to church now ; but I cannot say there is a decided general improvement. The experiment has not been long tried. 3274. If such improvement were to continue and advance, would it have a considerable influence in checking pauperism ? — Yes, very considerable. 3275. Is it not difficult to make an impression on depraved grown up persons? — Yes, more difficult than upon the young. 3276. One of the most important points, you would say, is the regulating the education of the young ? — Yes, that is a very important point. 3277. Must not the effect of the visits of the minister and elders be necessarily slow in showing itself? — Yes. We have been gradually coming down in our parochial system, and it will require some time to get up to the point from which we have fallen. 3278. Would you propose to make the poor's funds dej^cndent entirely on collections on each parish ? — I do not know if that would do at present. 3279. But you wovdd wish to have the management by kirk-sessions restored? — Yes. In the destitute pliu;es of the city, no good example is shown to the people. The whole of the respectable class have removeid from those places; and I think by such visits, and by kind- ness and attention to them, they might be brought to a better condition in every way. 3280. It would be the duty of the elders to visit them, and look after the children, and pray with the people?— Yes; that is what is done now in Mr BroMTi's parish. 3281. That would be the restoration of the parochial system, so far as religion is con- cerned ? — Yes ; but in regard to assisting people in their temporal wants, by such visits, a better knowledge of the people is requii-ed, and then we come to know how to relieve them according to their wants. Perhaps one family may require more assistance at one time than another. 3282. Supposing the elders had no distribution of money, would they not be of advantage to the poor in visiting, by getting places for their children ? — Yes. 3283. It is not necessary that you should have the distribution of pecuniary aid ? — It is not essentially necessaiy ; but I thiids they would visit with much greater advantage to the poor if they had. 3284. Could you not exercise a moral and religious influence over them, without giving them money ? — Yes. 3285. And it is not necessaiy to the exercise of this influence, that the elders have the distribution of money? — It is not essentially necessary; but I tliink it would be better for people themselves if they had. 3286. Do you not think that entrusting them vi'ith money to distribute might tend to promote hypocrisy among the people they visited ?— No ; the people would be so weU known. The districts wliich the elders had to visit, being small, they would soon come to know the habits and character of all in them, and they would easily detect hypocrisy. 3287. Do you think that a poor person would stand in as favourable a relation to a rich one, if he knew, to a cei-tain extent, that the money to be given must depend on the favoiu-^ able impression entertained of the poor man's religious character ? — I do not think it. In some eases, however, that might be the case. But no plan can be devised that will not be attended with some difficulties. 3288. In regard to widows with children, widows of bad character, who would misuse the money given to them, if the allowance were made larger, — what means would you take to prevent the misapplication of the money by such people ? — First, I would give them provi- sions ; and if they made a bad use of the provisions, I would give them nothing at all. I know the case of a woman who was not to be tnxsted. I left money in a shop, in order that she might get provisions there. The first tiling slie did when she got the provisions was U> sdl them and purchase whisky. Examinations, Hr A. Orrock. 17 March 1843. 190 IkHNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE KxaiiiinationK. Mr A. OiTock. 17 March 1843. 3289. Wliat would you think of giving relief to such persons in a well-regulated work- house? — That, I think, woiJd be the only plan. 3290. And gi-auting a discretionary power to distribute relief out of the workliouse to persons who would not misuse it ? — That would take away the parochial system. The great evil is, that in this way you woidd be distributing money to those of whose habits and character you were ignorant. A certain rule is laid down, and bad as well as good receive the same allowance. 3291. Is it tlie practice to grant relief to widows with children in the workliouse ? — They may perhaps take one or two of the cliildi'en into the workhouse, and give her relief besides. If a widow is left with five children, they may take in two, and grant her an allowance for the other three. 3292. It is not the practice, then, to take widows into the workhouse ? — No. 3293. It would be a new system to take them into the workhouse ? — Yes. 3294. You have stated that it would be desirable to give relief to widows of bad character in the workhouse only ? — Yes ; I said I thought it would be the only way ; there is no other way of giving it. 3295. You coidd not judge o/ the working of the system, being a new one ? — I think it would be a bad system to take widows of good character into the workhouse. 3296. Coidd you suggest any other mode of raising safely the allowance to widows ~of good character with children ? — I think if the poor allowance were raised, it would have a good effect to give it weekly. The allowance is given only once in the six weeks now. Poor people go to some particidar shop and deposit their ticket there, and, of com-se, they are obhgcd to take whatever provisions the shop can afford them, and the shopkeeper draws the money ; whereas, if they got their money weeldy, they would have it in small allowances, and wovdd make a better use of it. It would have a good effect if the elders and deacons had it in their power to give it to them in their own houses. 3297. In regard to the two years, during which period the new system has prevailed iii the New North parish, have you observed whether the parents are more careful in the education of their children than before the system commenced ? — I could not say. Since the Heriot schools were opened, they have great facilities in regard to education. 3298. What is the amount of school fees in the parish ? — There is no school but Heriot's school in the parish, 3299. Are there any schools in the neighbourhood ? — There was one in the parish before Heriot's school was opened, but it has been shut since. 3300. Do many of the children of the New North parish attend Heriot's school ? — ^A great many. 3301. Do you think the disposition to avail themselves of the opportunity of education has increased -within the last two years ? — I could not say ; but the people are very anxious about the education of their children. I have seen Mr Brown's missionary very attentive in getting their schedides filled up. 3302. Is it your expectation that the disposition to avail themselves of the advantage offered to them wiU increase ? — Just as they may feel it themselves ; but they appeal* to be anxious about it at present. ' , 3303. Are no fees demanded in Heriot's school ? — ^No. 3304. Supposing that the money raised by assessment were distributed by the kirk- sessions, would dissenters object or not object to the management of the funds by parties whom they did not like ? — I dare say among some dissenters there would be objections. G. Forbes, Esq. George Forbes, Esq., Examined : — 3305. You have resided a long time in Edinburgh ? — Yes. 3306. And you have had opportunities of knowing the condition of the various classes ? — Yes, for the last ten or eleven yeara — since the time of the cholera, when the house of refuge was established. I have been a director there since the beginning of the institution. 3307. Do you recollect a society for the suppression of beggars ? — I was not connected with it. 3308. From the attention you have paid to the lower classes in Edinbiu"gh, do you tliink the situation of the woi'king classes has improved, or has it been worse for the last few years ? — Worse. 3309. To what cause woidd you attribute the deterioration ? — Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to an abstract which I drew up, in answer to queries, in 1840. You will find it printed in Dr j\Jison's Illustrations, read before the British Association in September 1840. Queries were addressed to thirty ministers of different persuasions, elders, and visitors of the Desti- tute Sick Society in Edinburgh, and 1 made a mmierical abstract from the schedules they returned. One query is (p. 8), " Have you seen, during the last or recent winters, many persons and families in a very destitute state ?" — Twenty-six out of twenty-eight answer, " Yes." I do not mean to say that the others made ne<^ative answers, but that they did not answer at all. The Kev. Dr Bi-unton, and Eev. Mr Ilunter, of the Tron Chiu-ch, answer — " Certainly." The llev. Mr Fraser states — " Having been in the habit of daily visiting poor fimulies, in every ])art of the city, for nearly fifteen years, I think I may say there are many hundreds of families, and many thousands of individuals, in extreme want." The llev. Mr Guthrie of the Greyfriars' Church, answers — " Very many, but for the soujj-kitchen and POOR LAW INQUIRY COM^HSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 191 private charity two winters ago, must have been starved to death." Query 2. " Have Examinations. you seen many whose furniture, bedding, and clothing, had been pawned or sold for q. porbes Esq subsistence ?" 22 out of 25, — answer, " Yes." Mr Guthrie says, in answer to this query, 17 March 'i 843! " The result is deplorable. Their Sunday clothes are pawned, the house of God is neglected, character ia lost, and step by step those who were once decent, sober, church-going people, suik down into the lowest stage of sin and suftering." Query 3. " Have you seen many whose food was scanty and precarious?" 27 out of 28,— answer, " Yes." Mr Lorimer, twenty years an elder and visitor of the Destitute Sick Society, says, " I hav^ seen a very great number of individuds and famihes nearly starving, and who, but for the Destitute Sick Society, and other charities, must certainly have starved." Then in p. 12, the question is asked—" Do many of these destitute persons or families receive assistance from their parishes? Drs Brunton and Hunter answer, ' Yes ; but the allowances are utterly inadequate to their maintenance.' " Mr Guthrie says — " The allowances are in most cases miserably defi- cient." Mr Lindsay and Mr Lorimer, — " Widows with families have, in general, a pittance barely sufficient to support life, without consideration of rent or clothing." I should say, so far as my own experience goes, that what they receive in money is barely sufficient to keep them in life, without anything to keep them in clothes or pay for rent; or rather, practically, the agents of the landlords of the poor people:, I believe, know the day when they draw their allowances, and immediately come upon them for the money, leaving them to shift for their food as they best can. 3310. The allowance given to the outdoor poor is totally inadequate? — Totally inade- quate. An important point is referred to in question 13, p. 12, "Are there many families or individuals now chargeable in Edinburgh, who are recently from other parts ? Seven answer, ' Yes,'" I think that Mr Thomson of the house of refiige, and Dr Alison, between them might be able to furnish a list, showing that a great proportion of those chargeable in Edin- burgh have come to it lately, and in many cases after the best part of their lives are over. Dr AUson, in his work, mentions an important fact as to Aberdeen, where it is made out that a great number come to the town, after the greater part of their lives have been spent elsewhere, in order to get lighter work, or get the idlowance, and it is the same at Inverness. I would take the liberty 01 referring particulaiy to the whole of this portion of the " Illus- trations," because Dr Alison has added a good number of individual answers, from page 8 * on to page 13 ; and a great many interesting answers are made to the queries. 3311. To Avhat cause do you attribute the increase of destitution? — To the difficulty of finding employment, and to the increasing degree in which employments are becoming over- stocked. 3312. Are you yourself acquainted with any of those cases, persons who have come to town at a late period of life, in order to get the allowance ? — I cannot give you accurately the names of cases ; but I have not the smallest doubt of the fact. Mr Thomson, Dr Alison, and many others, can furnish you with such cases more accurately than I can. 3313. The inference you draw from that, is, that the people receiving parochial relief in the towns are better off than those receiving it in the country ? — It appears that they are ; or they may come with the hope of getting something to do in to^vns which they could not get in the country. They may not come in the first instance to obtain relief; but farm- servants and others may come to the to^\^l in expectation of getting lighter Avork, and become chargeable after three years residence ; and even if they got no more than they got in the country there would be a tendency to the towns. 3314. Would it be safe to increase the amount of outdoor relief to the whole of the parties receiving it from your experience? — It would not be safe to persons of bad character, without some house of refuge in which to receive such persons. 3315. Outdoor pensioners of good character, would make a good use of it? — Yes, I con- ceive so ; but persons who could not be entrusted with the allowance should be taken into some workhouse. 3316. You would not increase the allowance in town without increasing it all over the country ? — No. 3317. How would you propose to change the mode of maintaining the poor, — would you have recourse to the old system of kirk-sessions and deacons ? — The difficidty is, that the poor are not mingled together with the other classes as in small towns. The great mass of des- titution is in the old town, and the great difficulty is to find elders to undertake the manage- ment, and continue it. If this coidd be done, it would be a much better system than the present one. 3318. Do you think there would be any difficulty in adopting that system from the different opinions on religion in different congregations in the city ? — That would be a great increase of the difficulty. If all were of the Established church it wovdd be much easier. But the great difficulty is to find persons to undertake the labour of visiting these classes. 3319. YoM are aware, that there is but one inspector employed on accoimt of the poor in the whole of the city parishes, — would you deem it advisable to have a greater number of inspectors in the city, and extend the system to the West Chm-ch ? — Yes, I think additional superintendence would be desirable every way morally and economically. 3320. Woidd it be advisable to extend the means of education, and local superintendence? — Yes, clearly. Those who have taken an active part in seeking to alter the poor law in Scotland, have been spoken of as if they were to exclude all moral means. They should go on simultaneously. The poor must be brought out of their present state of abject destitution, before the moral means can have much effect. 3321. Do you think the education of the young is most essential to improving the condition of the poor ? — ^Most essential. i9i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE ExRininations. (i. Forbes. Esq. 17 March 1843. S322. Is tliere much intemperance among the poor in Editibufgli ? — No doubt there is; but not more geuenilly than in other towns in Scotland, One of the queries in the abstract to which I have referred, is " it being commonly believed that most of these destitute families are intemperate, have you seen a considerable number whom you had no reason to consider particularly so P^Twenty out of twenty-six answer, ' Yes.' " There are also individual answers to this query, to wliich I would beg to call yoiu* attention ; one visitor reports that out of 102 families in his district, 53 are not intemperate. 3323. Would it be of importance to put down the number of public houses?— I have no doubt it would be of importance that the number of them should be decreased. A pampldet published in Dundee by the Rev. Mr Lewis, shows this to an extraordinary extent. A calculation is made of the money spent in whisky ; and if the one-half of it were distributed among the poor it would greatly raise their condition. In Dumfries, a calculation has been made as to the comparative number of bakers and whisky sellers. There are twelve bakers there to seventy-five public houses. I think that is something like the proportion. 3324. Have you any kno>yledge of country parishes? — -I know something of several parishes. 3325. Would you say, from your knowledojo of country parishes, that the poor there are in a better or worse condition than the poor in large towns ? — They are better in an agricid- tural district where the proprietors reside. Little change would be necessaiy in particular parishes. 3326. Does your remark apply to parishes where there are assessments or no assessments? - — I allude to parishes where there are no assessments. 3327. Would you propose to alter the law in regard to able-bodied men? — ^I think it should be altered, supposing the law to be that they are not entitled to any relief. 3328. Would you apply such a law to the rural districts as well as to towns ? — I should suppose so. 3329. How woidd you guard against abuses ? — There can only be one of two w-ays, — either by the labour-test or the workhouse-test. There should be no premimu on idleness. I would assist them up to a point not to supersede their owa exertions. 3330. What would you propose ? — I tliink if a labour-test could be applied, it would be far better every way, 3331. Do you think it woidd be practicable? — As to that I do not know. I have no doubt it would be very difficult. 3332. Does it consist with your knowledge, that individuals have come from the country to the towns with a view of obtaining parochial relief? — I do not know of any who have come altogether with this view ; but there are numerous cases of persons who have come to town and got parochial relief after a residence of three years. 3333. Do you know any individuals who have come to town, and are in these circum- stances? — There are very many, I believe. I think I have seen several. But I should think the more general case is that in which they come with the hope of falling in with lighter work, or work of any kind, when they have no work in the country. They continue, and obtain the parochial relief. 3334. Would you projJOse to alter the law of settlement ?— Yes ; and that would be a remedy to a certain extent; call it ten or seven yeai's' residence, — it would bo a great relief to the tQ^vns, 3335. Woidd you propose to abolish the privilege of the college of justice? — Clearly. 3336. Would rate-payere object to the funds of the poor being under the management of kirk-sessions ? — I do not tliink so. There might be some jealousy on the part of the dis- senters. 3337. In regard to what ? — It is possible they might say, that as they pay they should have some share in the management. 3338. Would it be possible to combine churchmen and dissenters together ? — Why, not. I think dissenters, where the money is raised by assessment, should have something to say in the distribution. If the kirk-session had to do with the money collected at their own church doors, there would be few objections, I think, by the dissenters. 3339. You said that you observed the condition of the poor in country parishes, where the proprietors reside, to be much better than the condition of the poor in towns, — to what do you attribute that ? — I suppose they have more regular employment ; or they leave the parish to find work in the towns, or elsewhere. 3340. But do not people come into towns from the country to obtain work? — That must be from a deficiency of work in country parishes. If there be a redundancy of poor persons in the parish, they leave it ; and, what we complain of is, that they come to the town, and become chargeable here, instead of in the country parishes. 3341. If there be a less quantity of work in country parishes, to what do you ascribe the better condition of the poor and working classes in country parishes ? — The two things are not inconsistent. If they can get no work in the country parish, they leave it ; and those left behind may be in a very good condition. If country parishes were obliged to t.ake care of their own paupers, then .they woidd be worse off. 3342. Would you not ascribe the su})eriority of the poor in rural parishes to the connexion between them and the wealthier classes being more direct, and thus more efficient for their relief? — Yes; and the superintendence of kirk-sessi(ms I consider to be of much importance. 3343. My question refers not to the supervision of the kirk-session, but to the connexion between the poor and the wealthier classes ? — Yes ; this is what I referred to when I alluded to the mass of the poor being in the lowest parts of the Old Town. At one time the weal- thier classes lived in the better parts of the houses, while the poor occupied places in the POOR LAW INQUIRY COilMISSIOl^ FOR SCOTLAND. 193 building, or neighbourhood. The poor were then known and better cared for than Exaniinatioiis. same they are now. 3344. If a system were established, combining churchmen and dissenters, and giving them charge of particular districts, would that tend to connect the wealthier classes with the poor, — would such a system be practicable ? — Difficulties are in the way, but it would be an exceedingly good system if it could be put in motion. It has, however, been often spoken of. Subdivisions have been made here of districts on the most improved principles, but the zeal of the visitors waxed cold ; and it is because of the failiu-e of these experiments that I think some corapulsorj' assessment would be necessary. 3345. If the experiment had been successful for fifteen years, would not that be a proof of the practicability of the system ? — The system would be excellent if it could be kept in motion ; but you find a want of jjcople to do so. I said to Dr Chalmers that I despaired of seeing any body that would midertake it. From the feilures that we have experienced, a great many persons are satisfied that nothing but a compulsory system will do. 3346. What arc the instances of failure ? — There was one begun by Principal Baird. An attempt was made which lasted two years ; but it failed. I do not say from what cause. There might be difficulties in the way of a technical natm'e, from the state of the law, or the charity workhouse, or the to\vn-council. The whole of the Old Town was subdivided, and the princijjle was that when a person came to ask charity, you were to inquire what district he belonged to, and send him to the party having the charge of that district. 3347. Is there any printed report of that experiment? — I do not know if there is. But lately Dr Chalmers sent me a printed statement of a proposal to divide the Old Town into jiarishes. Upon his own calculation, by a fiiir division of labour among the clergy, it woxild not give more than 2000 to each of them. 3348. Is it your opinion that the system held in St John's parish in Glasgow has had any fair trial in Edinburgh ? — As I understand, nobody could be found to undertake it : it would be far better than to have paid inspectors, if it were practica1)le, but I think it is not. 3349. Your only objection to it is the difficulty of obtaining the agency ? — Yes ; I do not think you can obtain it. 3350. Have you anything else to suggest to us? — The Court of Session has at length decided that there is an appeal to them in regard to the amount of allowance. I have no doubt it would be desirable to have a shorter appeal, an appeal for instance to the sheriff. This also would be less expensive. I would be sorry to interfere with the management of the kirk- session ; but tliey shoidd be bound in every case to ascertain if the pauper had other means of support. They take it at present for granted that he has other means of support, and give him only a supplementary aliment. If they were to ascertain the fact in every case, it would make a great difference. In Edinburgh the exemption of the College of Justice is a great drawback to the charity workhouse funds. It is in debt 12,000/. or 14,000/. ; and there has been great difficulty in obtaining payment in certain cases, of the arrears of assessment. 3351. To whom would you entrust the management of the funds in large towns, — to kirk- sessions ? — Yes. There is nothing to prevent dissenters meeting with the Establishment. 3352. Would you contemplate this system with workhouses ? — Yes. 3353. How would the macliinery of a workhouse be regidatcd if the funds were invested in kirk-sessions ? — That woidd not be attended with such difficulty when it came to be in- vestigated. Kirk-sessions would send such persons as they thought fit to the charity work- house ; and they would fall under the regulations there,— such persons as could not be trasted with outdoor relief. 3354. Woidd you contemplate paid officers under the kIrk-sessions ? — It would be much better if they could manage without them, but I fear they could not. 3355. But could they be dispensed with in large towns ? — I should think most likely that they coidd not. If they coidd be dispensed with, it would imply that kirk-sessions were doing their duty methodically ; and if they could do it permanently and with zeal, it would be better than to have paid agents in eveiy way. 3356. That would imply a continuance in zeal which you do not think can exist ? — Yes. I doubt the practicability of the thing. I should think the system could not be carried on with- out paid agents in a town like this. To show the difficulty of obtaining relief, I may men- tion that application was made to the charity workhouse for a man of ray own name, James Forbes, who had resided three years in Edinburgh, and was quite disabled. They referred him to Glasgow, where he had resided six years, and he was sent there. Glasgow sent him to Campsle where he was bom, and from Campsie the poor man has been sent back to Edin- burgh. Dr Handyside knows of the case, which is interesting in a medical point of view. This is one instance, and there are many of the same kind. One other point I should like to mention, although I doubt not it has come under your attention before, that is, in regard to the want of reciprocity between the countries. For instance, an Englishman or an Irishman obtains a settlement here by a three years' i-esidence ; but a Scotchman has no opportunity of obtaining a residence in those countries. 3357. Is there anything else you can suggest to us ? — No. I think the residence should be altered, and an appeal should be allowed to the sheriff. If the kirk-session always made it a point to ascertain whether the pauper had scaj other means of living in addition to the aliment allowed, it would improve the system very much. At present they give them alms, taking it for granted that they have other means of living. In some parishes, there are badges given, authorising them to beg, in supplement to tlie parochial aid, which tends to increase the habits of vagrancy, with the view of saving their funds. 3358. I suppose these are limited to their own parishes ? — Yes ; they are licensed beggars. 3359. Would many of yoiu- doubts as to permanent efficiency be removed if there were 2 v^ G. Forbes, Esq. 17 March 1»4;», 194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E.\aiiiiii»tioii8. a general public board to wliich all kirk-sessions would be obliged to report ? — "WHiat I say "~7 — „ in regard to kirk-sessions applies to large towns. I shoidd be sorry to see the system i'? M«i<^li 1 843. abolished in rural parishes. 33(50. But even in large to^Tis if kirk-sessions were bound to report annually to a public board no tlic stato of pauperisnr.. would that not ensure the permanent efficiency of such bodies ? — It might go a certain length, but still I do not think it would do all that would be required. 3361. In regard to dissenters, supposing assessments to be continued, might not the matter between churclimen and dissenters be commuted in this way, — that dissenters should have the management of their own poor, being obliged to report to the board in the same manner ? — ^Yes. I can see no difficulty in their workino together, if that were the only difficulty. I beg to put in a paper which perhaps the board would like to see, which was circulated some years ago, in reference to establishing a lodging-house for the poor, which shows them to be, in this respect, in the most wretched condition. It was circulated in Edin- burgh, with a view to establishing a committee to cany it into effect. It was proposed that a sort of middle lodging-house should be established, where the poor might be provided with a clean and comfortable bed for a small sum — from 2d. to 6d. — and that it should be put under proper regulations, and kept in such a way as to be productive of gi-eat benefit to the poor resorting to it; and, if successftil, it would force the keepers of lodging-houses to raise the accommodation affijrded to their lodgers. Many persons approved of the plan, but nobody would take the actual management, LODGING-HOUSE FOE THE POOR. It is well known that a very large proportion of the poorer classes in Edinburgh have no settled place of residence. These consist of strangers in search of employment— of others, such as hawkers who occasionally visit the town for a few weeks at a time ; and of others — not only Individuals, but families, who, though resident in Edinburgh, are too poor to furnish and maintain a house of their o^\n. These persons are accommodated in lodging-houses. Fi'om recent inquiries, It has been foimd that these lodging-houses are, for the most part, in a very wTetchcd condition. In some of them, it Is true, a tolerably comfortable bed can be procured ; but. In the first place, the charge Is so high (one shilling, or almost a day's wages) as to be beyond the means of the greater proportion of the labouring poor ; and, in the second place, persons of all characters are indiscriminately admitted Into such houses, so that no one can enter them without the risk of contamination fi'om the loose and profligate. Those lodging-houses, however. In which the charge bears some proportion to the means of the , poor, are in aiiiiuch more deploi-able condition. The scanty supply of bedding, — the filthy state of the apartments and beds, — the numbers crowded Into one room, — the foul and un- wholesome Atfliosphere which they breathe (see answers to queries subjoined) present a picture of the most loathsome and humiliating wretchedness. In a moral jioint of view, these houses are still _woi"se. They are the haunts of the most dissolute and worthless. Thefts are committed in them upon the unwary, — plans of dej)redation are concocted, — and many, especially among the young, led away by the artful and designing, are seduced Into the com- mission of crimes. Persons of both sexes and of all characters and ages are promiscuously huddled together. Drunkenness and every species of wickedness are indidged In without shame or restraint ; and scenes of the most disgraceful riot and disorder are not of xmfrequent occurrence. It was in one (jf these houses that the murder was committed for which an unfortunate man was executed last year. There are no doubt some lodging-houses for the poor of a better description ; but It ap- pears from the statements of the police officers that these are either so few in number, or so little known, that It ^vould be difficult for a stranger arriving In Edinbm'gh in poor circum- stances, to find accommodation, except m one of the houses which have been described. In these circumstances it Is proposed to establish a lodging-house in a suitable locality. In which the poor may be provided with a clean and comfortable bed for a small sum, — say from 2d. to 6d. per night. With such charges, it is expected that the house will soon 6U})port itself without any public aid ; and all, therefore, that is required at present, Is a sum sufficient to fit up and furnish the house, and to pay the rent and expense of superin- tendence for the first year. Such an establishment is not Intended to benefit all classes of the poor. Institutions have recently been fonned, viz. the night refiige at Queensberry House, and the night asylum, FIshmarket Close, in which gratuitous accommodation is provided for those who are uuable to pay for a night's lodging even at the lowest rate. These institutions are open to all, however poor and degraded ; and it Is hoped they wiU be productive of much benefit. But there is a very large class who ai'e able to pay a small simi for their lodging, who wIU not mingle with those who are likely to resort to the night reftigc and the asylum for the houseless poor, and who, at the same time, are not only miserably 1)rovided for, but exposed to imminent risks In those lodging-houses which are open to them. [t Is for this class that the proposed lodging-house is intended, and, therefore, the exclusion of the disorderly and vicious will be one great object to be aimed at; for the accom- plishment of which. It win be placed under a strict and vigilant superintendence. But surely a purpose of the most Interesting and Important nature will be served, if a house shall be opened for the accommodation of those who have hitherto main- tained a respectable character, where they shall be free from many temptations, and more especially from those which poverty often renders it so difficult to resist. An institution of tills kind, indeed, will go far to accomplish what has long been desiderated, — a separation POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. Ida between the worthy and tlie worthless among the poor ; and it is not too much, perhaps, to expect that this house will soon become favourably known botli to workmen and employers as a place at which application may be made by those who are in quest of respectable tradesmen and labourers, and that by means of it much may be done to provide work for the industrious, and to supply the wants of the deserving poor. Valuable opportunities will also be afforded for promoting the spiritual welfare of the inmates. In order to convey a just idea of the importance of the scheme proposed, and the num- bers hkely to be benefited by it, it may be mentioned, that, in the adjacent districts of the West Port, the Grassmarket, and the upper part of the Cowgate, there are, according to a report by police officers, upwards of fortt/ lodging-houses of the wretched character above described, containmg three hundred and thirty-one beds. This fact, viewed in connexion with statements by the same parties that they have seen, besides beds, twenty sJiake-downs in one house, and thirty persons in one apartment, seems to indicate an evil of frightful magnitude. It should be added, that in the same locality there are other lodging-houses of a more private nature, occupied by persons who are generally or habitually resiclent in Edinburgh. If the pro2)osal now submitted should recommend itself to the public mind, it may be hoped that it would lead to a more minute inquiry into the number and actual condition of the existing lodging-houses, and to the adoption of means which shall render them less likely to be injurious to the health and morals of those who frequent them. T7ie answers to the following Queries, to ivhich attention is earnestly requested, were furnished by two officers of police. QUERIES REGARDING LODGING-HOUSES FOR THE POOR. I. BETTER CLASS OF HOUSES. Examinations. O. Forbes, Esq. 17 March 184:i. 1. What are the different sums charged for a night's lodging for a single person in the most comfortable of these houses ? 2. State the kind of accommodation af- forded according to the different rates. 3. How many beds have you seen in one room in such houses ; and are any of these beds let to more than one person at the same time? 4. Are persons admitted into these houses without respect to character ; and have you rea^ son to believe that they are resorted to occa^ sionally or frequently by persons of bad cha- racter ? 1. The charge for a night's lodging in beds, varies from 3d. to Is. ; m shake-downs, the charge is 2d. 2. Tent-bed, curtains, feather-bed, sheets, blankets, and a piece of carpet in front of the bed, for Is. Tent-bed, curtains, chaff-bed, blankets and sheets, for 6d. Tent-bed, chaff- bed, blankets and coarse half-sheet, for 3d. Shake-downs, consisting of a straw-bed and blankets, without sheets, for 2d. 3. Police officers have seen twenty-six beds and about twenty shake-dow7is in one house, and six beds in one room. Three persons are seen frequently in beds ; sometimes only one, and four in shake-downs, the number depend- ing altogether on the demand. 4. Persons are admitted icithout resj^ect to character ; and the houses are resorted to fi"e- quently by persons of bad character. II. LOWER CLASS. 1. ^Miat are the sums charged for a night's L In the hirer class, the sums charged lodging in the lower and lowest classes of these houses ? 2. How many beds have you seen in one room (state as nearly as you can the size of the rooms) ; and how many persons have you seen in one bed ? 3. Are lodgers of all ages and of both sexes promiscuously assembled together in one room, without respect to character ? 4. Are the beds and bedding in such houses clean and comfortable, or otherwise ? State particidarly what bed-clothes are fur- nished ; state also particidarly if the floors, beds, and bedding in such houses, are some- times, or often, in a very dirty condition ? 5. Do any of the lodgers in such houses lie on shake-downs, or straw, or shavings, or on the bare floor ? 6. Do lodgers in such houses sometimes, or frequently, sleep with their clothes on ? 7. Are persons admitted into such houses without regard to their character ; and have you reason to believe that they are frequented by many persons of bad character ? vary fi-om 2d. to 6d. In the loicest, from '2d. to 4d. 2. Police officers have seen eight beds in one room. The room may be about 30 feet long by 14 broad; anAfour persons have been seen in one bed. 3. Yes. 4. No. The beds consist of sti-aw and chaff, and the bed-clothes are a pair of blan- kets and a coarse rug. Sometimes only half a blanket ; and the floors, beds, and bedding are generally in a very dirty state. 5. They frequently lie on shake-do^vns, and also on straw with a covering over it ; but never on shavings or on the bare floor, 6. Not unless the bed-clothes are scant, 7. Persons are admitted without respect to character ; and the houses are frequented by persons of very loose character. 196 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Uxaniinations. f}. Forbes, Esq. 17 March 1843. 8. If you have ever visited any of these houses between elc^'en and twelve o'clock at night, and five or six in the morning, in Avhat state did you find the atmosphere ? 9. Is any little property which the lodgers may possess, secure ; or are thefts sometimes, or frequently, committed in these houses ? 10. Is the drinking of ardent spirits al- lowed, and is dioinkenness common in these houses ? 11. Do tradesmen or labourers with fami- lies ever, or often, frequent such houses ? 12. Will a respectable tradesman or la- bourer arriving, a stranger and in poor cir- cumstances, in Edinburgh, easily find a lodg- ing without the risk of being thrown among persons of bad character ? 8. Police officers have visited these houses at all hours of the night, and have found the atmosphere very bad ; not unfrequently caus- injy sickness and immediate vomiting to the omcers. 9. Any little property which lodgers may possess is not secure, and thefts are fi-equently committed in such houses, 10. Yes. 11. Yes. 12. Not easily, without the risk of being tlm>wn among persons of bad character. The following is part of a report, by two police officers, of a visit paid to some lodging- houses on the night of the 27th and morning of the 28th January. The part of the report here given refers to the better class of houses. It is sufficient to state, in regard to the lower lodging-houses, that " the atmosphere is very bad, causing sickness and retching.'" BETTER CLASS. In terms of directions received from Captain Stuart, we last night at eleven o'clock ^-isited a lodging-house of the better class, and found in one room, which contained five bedsteads, eight men occupying four beds, being two in each bed. These men were apparently labourers. Some of them were entirely naked, and others of them had on shirts. In a second room, con- taining five bedsteads, we foimd one bed occupied by two men ; another bed occupied by a man and a woman, and the other three beds were occupied by a man each. These men were seemingly labourers. In a third room, containing four bedsteads, we found one bed occupied by a man and a female of the lowest grade. These lodgers were all sober, and the floors, beds, and bedding, were tolerably clean. We again visited the same house this morning at a quarter to six o'clock, and found the same lodgers as last night ; and in a fourth room, containing four bedsteads, one bed was occupied by a man and a woman of abandoned character. The atmosphere was bad last night, and a gi-eat deal worse this morning, so much so as to cause nausea or sickness. We last night, at eleven o'clock, visited another house of the same class, and found in one room, containing five bedsteads, seven men, three beds being occupied by two men esich, and one bed by one man. These men had the appearance of labourers ; some of them were entirely naked, and others had on shirts. In a second room, containing five bedsteads, we found two men in one bed, a man in another bed, and a man and a woman in a third bed. These men were seemingly labourers also, and all of them had on shirts. In a third room, containing three bedsteads, we found a man of shabby-genteel appearance and a woman of abandoned character occupying one bed. In a fourth room, containing two bedsteads, wc found an old beggar woman. The various lodgers were all sober. We repeated our visit this morning a few minutes before six o'clock and found the same lodgers ; and also another bed in the fourth room occupied by two decent looking women about twenty-four years of age. The floors, beds, and bedding, were tolerably clean, and the atmosphere same as the other. J.Maitland, Esq. JoAn Maitland, Esq., Examined : — • 3362. You are actuary to the National Savings' Bank? — Yes. 3363. Does this give you an opportunity of knowing the description of persons, and their general means of subsistence, who deposit money there ? — As manager of the savings-bank that information is not so clearly attained by me as the public may suppose. 3364. Have you any analysis of the number of persons who are depositors? — Yes. [Re- port for the year ending 20th November 1832, was here given in.] POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 197 CLASSIFICATION OF DEPOSITORS BY THEIR DESIGNATIONS, EXHIBITING Examinations. J. Maitland, Esq. 17 March 1843. 1st, The Number of Accounts opened since 25th April 1836; 2cl, The Number remaining open ; 3d, The Aggregate of Balances ; 4th, The Average of Balances. AH as at 20th November 1842. Females. Domestic servants, ,, Single women without designation — -. Grcnerally persons keeping house for f a father or other relative, and having C no other occupation, -' Married women without designation — ) Generally the wives of oiieratives, j Minors, , Dressmakers, Milliners, Sempstresses, Widows, designated simply as such, Shopkeepers, Lodging-keepers, House-) holders j Female operatives. Mill-workers, ) Washers, , j Governesses and Female Teachers, . . . Miscellaneous designations, Balances not exceeding 2s. each. Total — Females, Males. Mechanics and operatives of all kinds, Porters, Chairmen, Gardeners, and) town and country labourers, ) Teachers, Students, Clerks, Shopmen, Domestic Servants, including public) Coachmen, Waiters, and Grooms, j Shopkeepers, Soldiers and Sailors, Public Servants — as post office, police. Excise, &c.i Minors, Miscellaneous designations, No designation, Balances, not exceeding 2s. each. Total— Males, Females as above, Societies, Total accounts as at 20th No- vember 1842, :} Number opened. 6,754 2,986 2,994 773 810 341 341 300 124 59 15,482 Number in operation. 4,016 1,878 1,596 380 416 151 178 80 99 29 3,315 12,138 Aggregate of Balances. £ s. d. 49,204 8 32,406 11 8 23,868 17 2,452 19 10 4,786 8 5 2,608 16 2 2,509 6 1 1,002 13 2 1,901 13 9 521 13 11 156 10 10 121,419 11 6 Average of I Balances. I £ S. d. 12 5 17 5 1 14 19 1 6 9 11 10 17 5 14 1 11 12 10 7 19 4 2 17 9 9 11 10 1 6,875 1,049 1,056 907 813 265 194 1,265 272 816 13,512 15,482 432 29,426 2,234 543 582 557 329 170 107 537 258 363 3,215 8,895 12,138 215 21,248 £ 32,400 8,891 10,826 14,168 5,599 3,211 s. d. 10 11 13 1 10 18 15 1 18 6 1,640 12 2 3,086 5,137 5,981 138 2 4 5 3 16 6 11 3 91,083 3 11 121,419 11 6 24,943 2 2 237,445 17 7 £ s. 14 10 16 7 18 12 25 8 17 4 18 17 10 15 6 7 5 14 11 19 18 2 16 9 6 10 10 4 9 10 1 116 3 11 3 5 I 3365. With the exception of the year 1842, your receipts have been generally increasing ? — Yes, every year increasing. A rise of intei'est last year caused many of the larger deposits to be withdrawn, and might be the cause of our receiving less, or it might be the state of the country ; but we did receive less last year, and we had been increasing every year till then ; — the institution is, however, comparatively new. 3366. How long has it existed? — Seven years. Undoubtedly during last summer there was an increase of small drafts, and a diminution of small deposits. 3367. The number of dejjositors of small amounts has been steadily increasing, however, and did not decrease last year ? — Yes. 3368. Have you reason to suppose that people fraudulently open accounts in fictitious names, although the depositor is only one ? — No, except parents opening accounts in names of their children as trustee for them. 3369. You are authorized to allow that ? — We cannot prevent it, but they are told that in all circiunstances the bank will hold the money to be truly the child's money. The average balance on accounts in the names of minors too is very small, under 11. 3370. The number of depositors, where the balance is under 20/., amounted nearly to 18,000 last November?— Yes. 3371. Have you reason to believe that this is a correct statement? — Yes, but this number of nearly 18,000 admits of some explanation; there may be several thousands of those whose 1^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Exauiiiiatious. J. Maidand, Esq, 17 Match 1843. balances are very trifling, at that particular date in some cases, perhaps only 2d. or 3d., — some of these may be accounts forgotten, but in the meantime must be counted. 3372. The greatest number in any one class of depositors appears to be female domestic servants ? — Yes, and these ai-e not readily affected by bad times. 3373. The male domestic sei'vants are greatly lower? — Yes. The accounts in actual operation of female servants amount to 49,204Z. Os. 8d., and are in number 4016 ; male servants, 557 in number, amounting to 14,168/. 18s. 3374. Can you give any reason for the gi'cat diflterence in male and female servants ? — There ai"e many more persons of that class ; but, in addition to tliis, female servants are much more inclined to save. 3375. Have you reason to suppose that there was any considerable want of work last year compared with the preceding year ? — There was a continual small draft last smumer ; and the people told me they were obliged to draw, being out of work. There was also a diminu- tion in the small deposits ; but not so as materially to affect the views in the report. 3376. In point of fact the want of work produced no effect on the bank ? — It did not dimi- nish the funds ; but, on analysing the operations, I see that the people were suffering. We received fewer small sums, but there waa an increase after October on the large sums. For two or tliree years we never received a 10/. note ; now, since October — particularly since February — we occasionally receive 10/. notes, in consequence of the banks having decreased their interest. That is the way I account for the deposits not falling off. 3377. Have you reason to believe that, independently of that cause, there would have been a falling off? — I thuik we should not have increased. 3378. You take some charge of the Indigent Old Men's Society ? — I am now merely an ordinary visiting member of the society. 3379. Docs It bring you much into communication with the lower classes ? — Formerly it did ; but I have not so much tiipc to devote to the duty as I used to have. 3380. Are you much acquainted with the condition of the poor in Edinbiu"gh ? — Between the savings-bank and the Old Men's Society, I have had a good deal of acquaintance M'ith tliem. One reason that I am obliged to give up the duties of a visitor in the Old Men's Society to a certain extent is, that being so well known in the savings-bank, I cannot easily get through tlie district. 3381. Are you acquainted with the yearly societies ? — Yes. 3382. Do you know how many there are of them ? — I do not, but I could easily say how many of them we have at the savings-bank, and I dare say we have most of them. I can send you a note of those at this moment in our books. 3383. Have you a table to show how many of the depositors live in Edinburgh, and how many belong to the country ? — We have not made out such a table for several years. 3384. It may be possible that there may be a great deal of distress in Edhiburgh, while the number of deposits fi-om the country may increase ? — Yes ; but I know that the number from the country is not anytliing like so great as to have a material effect. 3385. Have you found that the savings-bank exercises a very beneficial influence on the habits of the poor ? — I think so ; and the people think so themselves. Fathers and mothers frequently bring a beginning for their children, and appear extremely anxious to encou- rage it. 3386. Do any examples come in your way of families improving in their habits and con- dition from having become depositors? — I think so. I have known parents often who caused their children to begin. I think it certainly has had a good influence ; but it rcquii'cs the aid of the people to spread it among the young particularly. 3387. Has it the effect of checking intemperate habits ? — I think so certainly. The people say to me often, " This is the best kind of temperance society." • 3388. Have you employed any means of making the operations of the savings-bank generally known in Edinburgh ? — There is almost always some bill or circidar, or some- thing of that description lyuig on the table for peojjle to carry away with them. 3389. So that you employ the depositors themselves to circulate information among those who are not ? — Yes, which is by far the best way. 3390. Do you find many of your depositors after a time losing the desire of accumidating ? — Seldom, — that is to say, if they began regularly and returned two or three times at first ; but it is quite common for a person also who has put 10s. in to draw it out again, and never put in more. Yearly Society Accounts, as at 17thilarch 1843 — Nimiber 38 — ^Amount 1129/. 15s. 2d. Note. — This is a class of societies supported by the contributions of members merely, for provident and benevolent purposes, and named yearly societies, because they pay off, or divide their surj^lus, once at least in the year ; in general in October or November — they ai-e therefore at this date, in an early state of their annual progress. As a visitor of the Indigent Old Men's Society, I may venture to state, though not asked what may not be suspected, that in my opinion within these last sixteen years, the suffering poor in Edinburgh have become decidedly more reasonable and intelligent on the subject of poverty and its causes — more ready to suffer patiently — far less unjust in their expectations and imputations as to the conduct of governments and the upper classes. Then- reading is now never so bad, and is far more frequently good. They now expect more from self- improvement in their own moral condition, of which the temperance societies and others are practical illustrations. They have decidedly responded to the efforts of benevolent societies ; but above all, to the Immensely increased efficiency of muiistcrs and elders, in a POOR LAW INQUIRY COIDIISSION FOR SCOTLxVND. 199 manner that is a sufficient earnest of the good eflfects of enlarged efforts, not only by giving more aid in money to the helpless, but by the moral influence of benevolent persons acting on small districts. JOHN MAITLAND. im March 1843. Exaiuinations. J. Maitlanil.Esq. 17Mtiich 1843. Robert Hendersm^ Esq., Advocate, Examined : — 3391. This is a letter whicli you addressed to the secretary? — Yes. [See letter subjoined.] 3392. The statements in that letter, so far as you know, are correct ? — Yes, all correct. 3393. Are there any other circumstances relating to friendly societies that you would like to mention besides what you liave stated there? — ^Nothing material now occurs to me. The important points that have come before me of late, have related to questions of right to shares of the stock, and dissolution. In certain cases members cannot continue their contributions, — they wish to be allowed to leave, and carry away their share of the stock, — chiefly about Paisley, — and to have an alteration of ndes sanctioned to this effect. The pre- ventive to dissolution again is, that the consent of all on the roU must be got. 3394. The want of power to contribute is owing to the distressed state of Paisley? — Yes ; this I imderstand to be the cause. 3395. Is it only from Paisley that such jcases occur of persons leaving the society, and wishuig to carry away their share of the stock ? — One or two cases elsewhere have occurred. It is only when the society wishes to legalize the proceeding it falls under my notice. 3396. Does the act allow it under circumstances ?■ — After certain forms are followed out, and after the consent of aU parties receiving, or entitled to receive, relief from the society. Is obtained, a regidar dissolution is competent by the acts. My opinion is, that the allowance of members in arrear to Avithdraw and carry off" their share of stock, as it might indirectly operate, a dissolution would not be competent, at least without the powers and consents mentioned. 3397. Would it be advantageous to alter the law In any way ? — It Is difficult to say. The present law is good, having particularly in view the steady working condition of the societies. On the other hand, cases may be figured where it would be expedient for all to consent to dissolve. 3398. Have you reason to believe that any of these societies are Instituted for different piu^oses than those which they profess ? — I do not recollect an instance that would lead me to such a view. Many of them are branches out of masonic Institutions, but It Is only the friendly Institution that is known imder the acts. 49, Gbeat Kestg Steeet, Edinburgh, 25th Febmary 1843. f Dear Sir, — In reference to our conversation yesterday in the parliament house, I have, according to your request, to hand you this communication. Since the act was passed in 1829, consolidating the laws relating to friendly societies, (10 Geo. IV., c. 56,) a book has been kept by the advocate for the time acting under that and the subsequent statute, 4 and 5 William IV., c. 40. The first entry is dated 3l3t August 1829, and the last 18th February 1843. This book generally contains these particulars : — The names of societies enrolled under the acts, — their places of meeting, and the names of the clerk or secretary, or the party by whom they were forwarded to the advocate, — the date of certification, and whether the society had previously existed under the old acts, or had been for the first time constituted, — the objects and purposes of the society, whether for relief in sickness, in old age and infirmity, or for payment of ftineral money, — or for these three purposes combined, — or for annuities to widows and orphans. — Observations casually made on the rules, tables adopted, and whether the arbitration provision of the statutes have been adopted, &c. Since the act of 1829, the number of ndes certified by the advocate for the time to this date, is 971. Part of these, however, are rules of societies previously enrolled and amended. The membership is usually restricted to particular trades, lodges and institutions, — including such bodies as gardeners, &c. The aliment to members on the sick list generally ranges from 3s. to 8s. per week for what is called bedfast ; and from 2s. to 6s. for what is called walking aliment — the latter, after a certain period of illness, being substituted for the former. There are many special modifications. In a recent case, rules were submitted Including the object of assisting members out of employment ; but If that object be included In the pur- poses of many other societies, I do not gather it from the record. Printed copies of the ndes, when revised and certified, have. In many cases, been sent by the societies, and retained by the advocate. These always set forth the payments and contributions statedly to be made by members, and the exact amount of relief to which they become entitled. Occasionally they give information as to the stock and ftmds of the society. The rules are, In every case, from time to time, filed in the office of the clerk of the peace for the county in which the meetings are held, after being confirmed when certified by the justices. Societies are required by the acts to return, once in five years, to the advocate — to be forwarded to the home-office — the statutory schedule filled up, of the rates of sickness and mortality experienced. The last period of five years (strictly) expired in December 1840. I may add, that there have been communications of an occasional description sent to the advocate by societies, — generally In reference to their funds, — the claims of membei-s, and K. Henderson. 200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE EsMiiiratlons. Mr Henderson. 17 March 1843. tlieir working condition — not strictly noticeable by liim, unless for the purpose of fonvarding the objects of the institutions. 3309. In July last, a communication was made, . entitulcd " All the Friendly Societies in Paisley in 1836, with their history since." It is not authenticated, but bears that they were twenty-three in number, — the date of their establishment — the number of members in each of the years, 1836, 1840, and 1841, with the capital in each of these three years, and the amount of aliment paid by each, and all in 1841. There are observations to the effect, that eleven of the twenty-three had been dissolved, — six doing well — four attempting to dissolve — ^that one had suspended payment, and that one was not accounted for. This communi- cation was made by a INIr Boreland of Paisley, in reference to a society proposing to pass a rule for dissolution without consent of the members entitled to relief, and in a manner not allowable under the acts. I may add, that this pa2)er bears that the cumulo aliment disbursed in 1841 by these societies in Paisley, was 1848^. I have handed you these observations, which are, of-coiu-se, of a general description ; but they may perhaps at present aid the object in view. I am, dear sir, yours truly, (Signed) R. HENDERSON, Advocate appointed to certify the rules of Fi-iendly Societies. Assistance will be got in previous parliamentary reports, the Highland Society in 1824, &c, William Smythe, Esq. The report of the committee of Saturday, 18th March 1843. Lord Viscount jMelville, Lord Belhaven, James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., MEMBERS PRESENT. Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Mr. W. Johnston. 18 March 1843. Mr William Johnston, Town-Councillor, Examined : — 3400. You are at present the chairman of the committee for relief of the unemployed operatives ? — I am deputy-chairman. The Lord Provost is chairman. 3401. Have the persons employed under the committee been in very great distress ? — They have. 3402. How long have they been employed? — Since April last. I may state that I was chairman, and the only chairman of the committee, up to the 24th October last, when the committee was re-organised at a public meeting in the Waterloo Hotel. On the 1st of April last, large bodies of unemployed men assembled on the Calton Hill, with the view of laying their case before the public ; and being myself a magistrate at the time, I had con- siderable alarm for the peace of the city, not so much from an expected aggression on the part of the men, as from a dread of quarrels among themselves in dividing the money they might get. They perambulated the streets, and caused very considerable alarm in the houses, especially those occupied by females ; and fearing a disturbance among themselves, I interfered, and asked a conference with some leaders of their body. They behaved with great frankness, and took the assistance I offered in the very kindest manner ; and on their consenting to give up parading the streets, I promised to get them a small supply of bread and meal, according to their numbers and wants. Having procured the assistance of a small committee from the town-council, and five members from the Night Asylum and Stran- gers' Friend Society, wc commenced a subscription, beginning with the banks and public bodies, and thus raised a considerable fund. With this we set a-going a distribution of relief at the house of the night refuge, on the 21st of May 1842. We began by giving bread and meal to each family weekly ; and these we gave out in the following manner : — We received, in the forenoon of one day, the names of all persons wishing to be supplied, and we handed that list to four of the best men selected from the poor themselves, to whom we paid 7s. weekly, as visitors, to inspect and check the returns made by the men, and to see whether they were telling the truth. Some did tell us that they had families when they had none ; but these instances were very rare. In addition, we were assisted by a sub- committee of the Strangers' Friend Society, and the Night Asylum — gentlemen who were kind enough to aid us in checking the work done by the four visitors. Thus we had a double check on the statements made by the poor themselves. Those inquiries led to some most distressing revelations. I have found men, for instance, honest industrious tradesmen, who, having sold or pawned every article within their dwellings, were at length reduced to ask the smallest pittance of bread or meal. In many instances they assured us (and we found the statements true), that they had not tasted food for twelve, fifteen, twenty-four, and some even twenty-eight hours. I found, in some cases, that the very grates of the parties had been sold or pawned ; and, in numerous instances, when we gave a pittance of meal, 18 March 1843. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 201 they had not the means of cooking it, nor salt to season it with. There were many who Examinations. had been in a respectable way as tradesmen, reduced to perfect destitution, through causes ; over which thev had no control. We gave a supply only once a week as our funds were Mr W. Jolmston limited ; and we distributed among the parties thus : — to a single man, we gave three tickets ; to a husband and wife, four tickets ; to a husband and wife with two children, five tickets ; to all above five children six tickets. Each bread ticket entitled the holder to a half loaf at 4id., and each meal ticket, half a peck of meal at 5ad., meal being about lid. the peck at that time, and the bread 9d. per loaf, second quality. We did not allow them to purchase for themselves, but we entered into a contract with a respectable meal-dealer, who divided the rations as we directed. I may state, that at this time, though the privations of the poor were very great, as I have described, I could discover no instance of their having ex- (^hanged the meal or bread tickets for spirits. Such a story was indeed got up, that we were dealing out rations to persons who were not making a good use of them ; and as chair- man of the committee I instituted a rigorous inquiry ; and I am glad to say that in no instance was the relief so exchanged. On the contrary, the whole of my experience led to the result, that the poor were far more anxious to recover the small articles of clothing and household stuffs they had pawned, than to indulge in personal indulgence of any kind. That seemed their greatest anxiety. After having carried on this process for about eight weeks, and fearing we were probably leading persons into improvident habits ; we, on the 24th of June, entered into a contract with the Newhaven railway company, to excavate a certain portion of earth at the bottom of Scotland Street, taking up tlie contract with this provision, that we would just excavate so much as we found we could do with the persons then on our hands, and reserving power to throw up the contract if employ- ment were found for the men elsewhere. We empbyed as many as 120 in excavating soft earth; for which we were paid 2d. per cubic yard. At this time we paid the single men 5s. weekly for working the usual labour hours, with the exception of a single hour from six to seven that they might attend in the morning the hiring market. We did not commence till seven o'clock. A man with a wife and two children got 6s., and, when there were above two children, 7s. weekly. There was nothing for Sabbaths. Our mode was to make payments daily, as follows. The men who had 5s. weekly, got Is. a day each day save one, on the Friday, when they got nothing — those who had 6s., got Is. a day ; the men who had 7s-, got Is. a day, with 2s. on Saturday : which made our payments easy, and allowed the men to take work immediately if they could find it. About the same time we entered into a contract with the Edinburgh and Glasgow railway company for breaking freestone for putting between the rails. It is a very soft stone. Neither of these contracts paid the committee. We did not derive above half the amount for the labour which we paid. But our main object was to give them employment, and by keeping up their indus- trious habits, to get them work elsewhere. At this time, being the middle of summer (the month of .June), we tried to get rid of a number of men whom we knew to be strangers; and we placed at the disposal of the Strangers' Friend Society, 50/. to send off those who were willing to return to their parishes. Thus we got rid of twenty-four or twenty-five. Early in June, or in the latter end of May — we applied to the presbytery of Edinburgh for a collection at the church doors, which yielded 530/. This enabled us to pay some debts we had contracted, and to carry on operations during the summer. Towards the end of July and beginning of August, a number expressed their willingness to go to the harvest. But they had neither the means to transport themselves or their families, nor could they jiurchase sickles. The committee resolved to purchase sickles for them ; and we gave some of them half a week's, some of them a whole week's pay, in advance, to enable them to go to the country. At this time the numbers on the list amounted to 742 men ; and by those means they were reduced to 380 ; 305 having been supplied with sickles. We made an analysis of the numbers ; and it appeared, that of the 380 with us, 50 were not able to work ; 40 were only fit for the charity workhouse ; 120 were able to work but could not be employed, and could not leave, some members of their families being in distress ; 170 more were at work breaking stones and excavating ; and at this time we found it absolutely necessary to give the men only half a week's work. We made double shifts ; the 170 employed at work were allowed each three day's work ; and the three days they were off, they got one ticket each for a single man, and two for a married man. This we did to induce them to find employment for themselves. Our weekly expenditure at this time was 110/. From the 10th of October to the 28th of September, we were considerably relieved from a number having gone to the harvest ; but about the latter end of September they began to return from the harvest in great numbers, so that on the 28th of September the numbers had again increased to 725. Of these, we employed 345 on the Meadows, breaking stones, and otherwise levelling and repairing the walks, — 380 more were supplied with bread and meal tickets. The harvest being so very short, was the cause of their returning so soon upon our hands. Had it been a usual harvest of five or six weeks duration, they said they would not have troubled us again ; but we found no man with more than 15s. or 20s. in his pockets. The universal story was, that the remittances they made to those left behind had exhausted all they had ; and from the very short period of work they had had, — the quickness with which the harvest was got in, — the poor were in a far worse position than in the beginning of spring. On the 1st of October, we arranged the men at the Meadows in squads, every twenty having a superintendent ; and about the 7th of the same month, we instituted a mode of reducing their numbers by only giving employment or meal to those who could prove three years' residence within the parliamentary boundary ; and all others we turned off'. After having so reduced the lists on the 9th of October, we had 795 men still left ; — to 497 having families, we gave lOd. a day, — to 257, 6d. a day, — and to 41, Is. 4d. a day, 2 D 202 MINUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, who were employed at Scotland Street on task-work ; — making a total of 795. At tLis time we assisted twenty-two whose residences were chiefly in Ireland, who were willing to l» March l8-».'5 ' '^^'^^ the town, and for whom we paid their passage to Glasgow. From September to the 24th of October the numbers increased very much. At this point, we found the public get- ting tired of private subscriptions — our money was gone — we had to remodel the whole system, and to make a new appeal. Wo called a public meeting, and made a statement of our whole proceedings and funds on the 24th of October. The public heard our state- ment, and unanimously re-appointed the same committee, with a very large addition to its numbers. On that occasion, the Lord Provost was appointed chairman, and I deputy- chairman ; and a member of all the committees. The first thing we did on being re-appointed was to apply to the colonial office for the use of a ship or ships to convey to the colonies a great number who were willing to emigrate. There were 350 heads of families who were per- fectly willing to go where we might be able to send them free of expense to themselves. The application was declined by the colonial office ; but within a week or two after, I got a note from the agent at Leith, stating that government would take 100 families to Australia or New Zealand, provided we supplied them with the necessary clothing. We instantly appointed a small committee to see if we could meet the demands of the government, which were for two entire suits of clothing ; and after a great deal of labour, in selecting men the most likely to be useful, and after endeavouring to obtain the clothing so as to suit the government arrangement, we found that some half dozen could furnish them- selves with the necessary equipments. They were reduced to such beggary, that nothing they had could raise the necessary amount of equipment. We were obliged to abandon the scheme altogether. The reason why we could not send even half a dozen, was that government would not pay their passage to London. It would have taken so much to pay the passage of so many, that we therefore abandoned the scheme. Probably the only other thing I have to trouble you with, is the amount we raised. 3403. Is there no society here for emigration ? — None. 3404. Would it have taken a considerable sum to have clothed those men ? — To have given them clothing, and paid their passage to London, would have cost 300/. 3405. But the clothing? — We could have suj^plied it for about 150^. 3406. Would it have been impossible to have raised that by subscription ? — It would not have been impossible, had we not been burdened at the time. We were in debt, and had enough to do to keep the men going. We raised, from the 21st of May to the 24th of October by subscription, 941/. 14s. lid. We received from the national fund, under the Queen's letter, at different periods, 1521/. 10s., — making the amount we spent in the way I have described, in tickets and wages, from the 21st of May to the 24th of October, 2463/. 4s. lid. From the 24th of October till last night, we expended 4693/. 10s. 9d., making a total (within two day.s of ten months) for a period of ten months of 7156?. 15s. 8d., being, as near as may be, an average of 714/. per month. Of this sum, we raised from the inhabi- tants, 5G35/. 5s.. 8d.,^the i-emainder consisted of the money derived ft-om the national fund imder the Queen's letter, namely, 1521/. 10s. 3407. You stilted that at one period you were obliged to discharge a number of men ; had you the kno;tvledge of what became of them — did they leave the place or find work ? — I think the parties we discharged found work by degrees. By our having withdrawn so many to the Meadows, we reduced, to a certain amount, the over-abundant supply of labourers in the city ; and the principal good we are doing is, by withdrawing a certain number, we are leaving a door open for others. Persons who had not a parochial claim were greatly assisted by our withdrawing, and giving employment to those who had. 3408. There is a considerable number still employed ? — We have 900 still on our lists. 3409. A considerable number are at the Queen's park ? — Yes. One of our committees applied to her Majesty's commissioners of woods and forests, and also to Sir Robert Peel and Lord Haddington, to be allowed to make a public road through the Queen's park to Puddingston, and also to intersect the hill at different places with carriage-drives. Sir Robert Peel replied in the kindest manner, and stated that he would bring the matter under the notice of the commissioners of woods and forests. Mr Nixon, the master of works, was, without the least delay, directed to communicate with the Lord Provost on the subject ; and they arranged the mode in which operations should be carried on. They fixed on the following principle : — first, that no one was to be employed unless under con- tractors. Mr Nixon had a printed schedule of prices, by which the contractors were to give their estimates. These contractors were allowed to fix their own amount of weekly wages to the men ; but they were tied up in this way, that they could only take such men as were recommended by the relief-committee. Mr Nixon sent to the committee for 200 men, out of which number he picked 100, whom he gave over to the contractors. The tools were supplied by government, each contractor giving so much weekly for their use. We have thus employed 330 upon the Queen's works, being the best portion of the men who were labouring at the Meadows. About fourteen days ago, we passed a resolution that we would never employ more than 900 upon the Meadows at one time ; but as Mr Nixon took them off our hands, we were to supply their places from the passed list, amounting to 160 ; and upon these 160 being put upon the Meadows, we were there to close, so that no more should be taken on our lists. At present we have 900 employed, and 230 working upon the Queen's works. Those men who are employed on the Queen's works are getting, on an average, wages of 9s. a week. In the present week, the committee thought it necessary, with a view still more to encourage the men to emigrate into the country for work as far as possible, to put the whole upon task-work. We published and POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 203 circulated resolutions. These resolutions I hold in my hand, fixing the amount t<. be Ksaminations, given to each man. ° Ml- AV. Johnston. 1« .March 11)4^. RULES AND REGULATIONS. 1. In order that the workmen employed in the Meadows, and others who receive their wages from the funds collected for the relief of the honest and industrious unemployed tradesmen and labourers, may have an opportvmity of being present every morning at the hiring station for day labourers, the roll will not be called till half-past six o'clock. 2. Workmen who are not present to answer to their names, will not be admitted on the works for that day ; and if late more than once in the course of the week, their names will be struck off the roll. 3. That the men shall work nine hours per day, viz. from 7 to 9 o'clock — 10 to 2 o'clock, and from 3 to 6 o'clock. 4. That the men employed in breaking stones for the Meadow grounds, shall be paid at the rate 3d. per cubic yard — the stones to go through a two inch ring. They shall receive 6d. each, every evening ; and on Friday each week, the balance for the work done. 5. The quarriers shall be paid at the rate of 9d. per day. 6. All other descriptions of work shall be paid at the rate of 6d. per day for each man. 7. Should any of the stone-breakers leave the works during the currency of a week for more profitable employment, they will be paid for any extra work they may have done. 8. Should any of the men leave the works without permission from the superintendent, they shall not again be admitted. 9. All improper language, riotous conduct, disobedience of orders, or idleness, shall be punished by immediate dismissal from the works ; and upon no consideration shall these men again be admitted. 10. That the foregoing rules and regulations shall be read to the men every morning when the roll is called. By order of the special committee, THOMAS MILLER, Seci/. Edinburgh, lllh March 1843. 3410. What is the amount of the funds at present? — Within the last few days, on Mon^ day, we had 250/. in hand, after paying all obligations. We pay everything weekly, on Saturday at ten o'clock. I have just left the committee after this has been done for the week. 3411. How long will that carry you on ? — At the present rate, only for a fortnight. 3412. Do you contemplate a new subscription .' — I hardly contemplate it, as we are under a kind of promise to make no more appeals. We had church collections last Sunday, yield- ing nearly 1100/. 3413. Then the 250/. will be all that remains 1 — Yes. We were considerably in debt. We had forestalled the collections, rather than turn the men off. Our expectation of con- tinuance is from the number of private contributions we are receiving from noblemen, and generally from the public. (They are very kind, and we never want.) We think we shall be able to carry on for three weeks or four ; but we expect by that time to have the numbers so far reduced as to say to them that the season is far advanced, and that they must find work ; but should they return back after we turn them off, we must remodel the whole system on a new principle. We must prepare for it ; we cannot allow the men to starve. 3414. Have these men been employed during their lives as outdoor labourers ? — Before the Queen's works were set on foot, we had 460 outdoor labourers ; and if we are asked how we had so many, I may state that they came on our hands originally at the completion of the Edinburgh and Glasgow railway. It was just a repetition of what took place on the com- pletion of the works at the canal in 1815 or 1816 ; and great numbers came on the opening of the Edinburgh and Glasgow railway, just as in the other instance. 3415. And in that instance they gradually melted down ? — Yes, by finding employment elsewhere. We find a great reluctance among the Irish to leave this place. They prefer remaining on almost any terms to going back to their own country. 3416. The 640 others ; what were they ? — We have them classified giving every trade. They are ordinary mechanics — printers, joiners, gentlemen's servants turned oft' of late by the reduction of establishments — blacksmiths, brassfounders, &c. &c. The introduction of printing by machinery has thrown a great number of that class idle. 3417. Do you generally find them sober men, or have jou the means of ascertaining that? — I should say they were of the better class of workmen. There are others of another class ; but I should say generally that they are our ordinary industrious poor — a fair sample of our working men, with a few noisy exceptions. 3418. Are the eases thoroughly scrutinized at first? — They have always been so, — first by visitors chosen from among themselves, then they are revisited by the Strangers' Friend Society, and the Night Asylum directors. 3419. Do you think the individuals among themselves employed as visitors, trustworthy ? — We have foimd them generally more unsparing and severe with the men than the directors of the asylum. Their great aim was to reduce the numbers in self-defence. 3420. It has been alleged, that a great number of those who are on the relief fund, aie individuals who, in ordinary times, have no work ? — I admit that there must be a number who are of idle habits, but not to the extent that some people suppose ; but from their idle 204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, habits, and their noisy way of conducting themselves, they get a prominence beyond what .. . ^ , . is proportioned to tlieir numbers. i« JliMch ia43. 3421. You don't think it would be a fair description of them, that they are idle men? — It would he very unjust to seven tenths of them, 3422. At present have you the same system of scrutinizing cases ? — The very same, even jnore rigorous than at first. 3423. That the individuals selected from the men are visited by the Strangers' Friend , Society ? — The Strangers' Friend Society have not done so lately, but we have an admis- sion committee charged with scrutinizing the lists. 3424. Do they visit the dwellings ? — No, but they have given out a more rigorous sche- dule, and at all times the returns are checked. 3425. Who are expected to sign these schedules ? — They are signed by householders — persons known to the committee. 3426. Do yon think you can depend on those individuals signing strictly ? — We may be deceived ; but I should say not generally to any extent. 3427. You entered into the contracts with a railway company ? — Both were railway com- panies — the Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the Edinburgh and Newhaven. 3428. Do you think that, as a general principle, that is a good mode of finding work for the unemployed, or did you resort to it for want of funds ? — We would not have resorted _to it ; but for two reasons, first that we should have felt the want of funds, and secondly, that we must have been giving them alms had we not required some work. 3429. Supposing it desirable to obtain M'ork for relief, still would you think it desirable to enter into contracts with parties who would have employed labourers under any circum- stances? — I think it better to give labour, and afford relief in return for work only. 3430. Do you think the railway companies would have performed the works at all? — Not unless we had contracted with them. The stones we broke would not be required for some years to come, and the excavation at Scotland Street could have been delayed probably for another year — till the present spring, instead of the last. I may state, lest it should be supposed that we had taken the contract so as to injure the labouring men — the fair trader — that after wo had done our portion of the work, contractors offered to take it at the same rate that we were getting. 3431. Did the inhabitants contribute pretty generally to these subscriptions ? — No ; there is a certain class who are known as givers. 'I'he burden falls uniformly on one class — well known to the collectors we employ. 3432. Have you a notion of the numbers of these persons ? — It depends on the object. For a religious object you find one class ; for a benevolent object, apart from the other, you find another class ; and there are about 500 or 600 who give to every purpose. 3433. But for the relief fund? — There must be a great many more. The numbers could not be under 3000 or 4000— many giving very small sums, and often repeated. 3434. Can you state whether within your recollection there have been previously relief funds ? — There have been. At one time a road was made — nineteen or twenty years ago — a large sum was raised. The men were set to work to make roads round the Crags and the Calton Hill, 3435. Since then ? — -We have had nothing since then that I remember in the way of giving work ; but we have often had soup-kitchens. 3436. Can you state in what years there were soup-kitchens? — I am not very well able to state the years. 3437. 1834 and 1835 ?— Farther back— in 1825 and 1826, I think ; and there are almost every winter soup-kitchens in particular districts — almost constantly. 3438. Who generally manage these soup-kitchens? — Generally a committee appointed by the inhabitants. 3439. Have you been in the habit, previously, of seeing much of the habits of the poor in Edinburgh ? — Yes. I have occupied public offices, of some kind or other, for the last four- teen years. In my own profession, I employ, on an average, from fifty to seventy men as engravers, printers, stationers, so that I know the habits of the working classes very well. 3440. Have you considered the bearing of the poor laws on the condition of the unem- ployed. Can you suggest any alterations ? — I should say no system could be of any use, so far as I am able to judge, unless it were preceded by a proper mode of settlement. I think the great evil we are labouring under is the three years' settlement, and that the settlement ought to be by birth-place. 3441. Only ? — Only by birth-place. I can conceive no term of years which would not aggravate the evil. 3442. Don't you think it woidd be a hardship if a person were to come in early life to a place, and reside for forty years, then to send him back to a country parish? — I would meet that by the reply, and I can vouch for it, that the persons who generally come here in their youth, and live to a mature age, very seldom come on the poor's roll, and that the case is the reverse with those who come from the country in riper years. My experience would tell me, that young men, so long as they can be employed as hinds or ploughmen, remain in the country ; but when enfeebled, they come into town to get employment as light porters, taking easy work, such as towns always afford. My experience is, then, that we are burdened with the poor of the landward districts. 3443. But the case is, if a person were to come on a parish after having given his labour in another ? — It certainly would be hard ; but the hardship is greater upon towns of main- taining the poor from the country. 3444. Would not the case you mention be met by a law, fixing seven or ten years' resi- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 205 dence, combined with the allowance of no settlement after a certain age ? — It might be met Examinations. very easily in the small towns, and the country districts generally, but not in the large towns. The great difficulty is to find out the parishes where the poor have lived in towns. ^8 ^a/ch" "m"' In almost every instance the poor are put off, or are deprived of relief, from the impossibi- lity of stating where they have lived ; and it strikes me, that as you increase the number of years, you increase the difficulty of the poor finding their parish. 3445. But would that not be lessened by having all the parishes of Edinburgh reckoned as one for the purposes of settlement ? — That would do away altogether with my objection on that point, although I would still prefer birth as giving settlement. 3446. Suppose the law of settlement altered, would you have any other proposal ?— In addition to the alteration of the law of settlement, the occasional poor should be relieved parochially ; and, as I think every kind of institution, such as hospitals, are bad (beginning even with Heriot's), all of them have a bad tendency, I would maintain in the workhouse the feeble, the infirm, the diseased ; but the able-bodied would be far better seen after un- der a system of parochial visitation and management. 3447. As at present ? — Not exactly as at present. The two workhouses take the whole city in. 3448. You would propose to divide the royalty into parochial districts, under the admi- nistration of kirk-sessions ? — Either by kirk-sessions or otherwise. But the permanent poor, who cannot be maintained except in a workhouse, ought alone to be taken into the workhouse, and the occasional poor, who do a little during the summer, should be left under the kirk-session. 3449. But with regard to able-bodied persons ?^^I would leave that class especially to the kirk-session. It would break down the character of the working population to take them into the workhouse ; and by relieving these persons at a pinching time, such danger would not be incurred. When there is a hard frost, or the like, the kirk-session might relieve them temporarily, and many might be set on their feet immediately again. 3450. Do you think it would break down their spirit to give them relief in the work- house rather than to give them no relief at all ? — I would rather have them left to the voluntary offerings of people than that they should be taken into the workhouse, — always presuming that they are able-bodied. 3451. You would use the workhouse only for the impotent ? — For those permanently poor for whom there is no prospect, especially the widows. 3452. How would you deal with the idle able-bodied ? — The kirk^session would soon find them out, and know how to deal with them. 3453. Would they give them no relief ?-^They would have them under surveillance. They might reclaim them. 3454. Do you contemplate the session giving casual relief ?t— Yes — when persons are out of employment, occasional relief. 3455. You contemplate this when persons are out of employment ? — Decidedly. 3456. Under what restrictions ? — At first I would be very much guided by good character. 3457. You would require work in return for relief? — Always. The men always prefer work in preference to relief given otherwise. That is the result of my experience; I have found them at all times anxious for the smallest pittance in return for labour. 3458. You would propose the kirk-session giving relief by work to those out of the work- house ? — Yes ; but not permanent. 3459. How many parishes are there in the royalty ? — Thirteen. 3460. Do you contemplate thirteen distinct boards of management giving aid? — I would contemplate that ; but not permanent aid. 3461. Take, for instance, the present pressure, would that system have worked ? — It would have worked far better. The characters of the men would have been better known, and the funds better administered. 3462. You think the inspection would work better ? — The whole system could be better managed. 3463. Do you think you are more likely to get thirteen efficient superintendents of work than two or three? — Yes; and for this reason, that we avoid what is a very serious evil, all chance of combination among the men. You have ability to break them up into small par- ties. There is not so much communication for evil purposes. 3464. The question is with regard to the superintendence of work ? — It is possible for two or three parishes to club together, and have the same superintendence for the same parishes. 3465. On the same spot ? — Yes. There are some parishes where there is no distress : in the New Town we have no such thing. By having a parochial system two or three might unite for work, 3466. Then, practically, you would unite them ?— So far as work is concerned ; but the investigation would be distinct. 3467. Then there would be a united management f^^Only so far as the work is concerned. 3468. Would you contemplate that by law, or would you leave it to the kirk-sessions under the present law ? — I think, if left under the present law, it would be quite sufficient. 3469. You would not make a law for that object? — No. I think the less the poor know that they have such a right, the better. If you once give a claim — it is quite enough that they have a claim — you induce a great miany to trust to such for subsistence. 3470. Do you think relief in the workhouse would make them depend upon that for sup- port ? — Decidedly. 3471. But would an industrious man be less industrious because he knew that he could secure support in workhouses ? — I think it would unfit him for work. 206 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaininations. 3472. Do vou think that is the experience of the English workhouses ? — 'I do not know as )lr W j..iiiiston *^ *^^ English. I know our own countrymen well IB Marrh I84:s. 3473. With the workhousc you think they would he less industrious.'' — Yes. I think they would prefer that mode of living to exert themselves in any way. 3474. Do you think it possible, in Edinburgh, to establish that system of giving relief to the poor by kirk-sessions ? — Quite possible ; or make parochial boundaries, and have a com- mittee within each to act with the kirk-sessions. 3475. There would be no difficulty in finding kirk-sessions to carry on ? — None what- ever. 3476. Do you think such a system would have operated in the case of Paisley ? — I think, if such a system had been in operation at Paisley, the distress could not have happened to the same extent — they would have seen it before it took place, and prepared for it. The means of transport and of subsistence would have been got ; and it was from the want of such a system, that the people were reduced to a state of beggary before the amount of the distress was fully known, or could be effectually met. 3477- And with reference to kirk-sessions, do you contemplate their expending money raised by collections or assessments ? — Both. I think some party ought to have power in times of distress, to raise an assessment — such as the sheriff; but, in ordinary circum- stances, I would leave it to the collections. 3478. In ordinary circumstances the collections would be quite sufficient ? — Quite ample. In Buccleuch parish we have had at the latter end of the year, for six years, a collection, which enables the kirk-session to give very seasonable relief. Such distress as we now have, requires an extraordinary remedy. 3479. But you do not contemplate relief to the extraordinary poor from the assessment ? — No, unless in times of great distress. 3480. You would have an assessment for the permanent poor ? — Decidedly ; because I think the present system a mockery, — a complete delusion, — and when very severe distress comes, without an assessment, the burden falls on one class, almost the same individuals, and not the most able to pay. I would say the middle ranks contribute far more (I wOuld say rather the poor class) than the rich contribute. 3481. But with respect to the permanent poor, they are supported by an assessment ' — They are. 3482. Then your alteration, putting the adininistration into the hands of the kirk- ession, would not affect the permanent poor? — The assessment would not be so great as t is, if it were only equalized over the whole city. 3483. You would expect they would receive more relief by the assessment being over the whole city ? — Yes. 3484. And you rest your hopes on that ? — Yes, and on the voluntary contributions. 3485. Do you think the permanent poor receive enough in the West Church ? — No. 3486. The assessment is not burdensome there ? — Not as in other parts of the town. 3487. If it were for the whole of Edinburgh, would it be less than for the West Church ? — I think it would not affect the West Church. 3488. Are you aware of the proportion of the rental of the College of Justice compared with other parties? — I am not; but it is quite obvious to any one acquainted with Edin- burgh that it forms a large proportion. 3489. Do you suppose it is more than one-fifth ? — I should say decidedly more in point of value. 3490. You are aware there is no such exemption in the West Church parish ? — No such exemption, — the exemption is only within the royalty and extended royalty. 3491. But when you say you would put it under the kirk-session, do you mean to say you would take it away altogether from the heritors ? — I would be willing to conjoin the heritors, — the more the better. 3492. To have it as it is just now ? — Yes. 3493. Do you think there ought to be more power of appeal ? — Decidedly there ought to be an appeal. Cases of great hardships occur for want of appeal. 3494. To whom ? — The sheriff is the best person, I think 3495. Is it not the practice to give low allowances ? — It is ; but there is a very strong feeling that the allowances here are almost illusory. 3496. But are there not individuals who think that one of the best points of the Scot- tish system is that there are small allowances to the poor ? Are you not aware that in published writings it is maintained that it is desirable that they should be so small ? — Yes, I have seen such ; but I don't agree with them. 3497- The question is with regard to the existence of the opinions ? — I am aware it exists. 3498. Supposing a sheriff' held such an opinion ? — He would be guided by evidence surely. 3499. Supposing he thought there ought to be a small allowance, what would be the use of applying to him? — There is none but from his sense of justice. 3r)00. Do you not know that, as a general principle, many think it is for the benefit of the poor themselves that the allowances should be small ? — Yes, I am aware that such an opinion is held. 3501. Then to such a person it would be no object to appeal, because, according to his sense of justice, he might think it better for the poor that there should be small allow- ances ? — It might be so, if he were determined not to listen to evidence and reason. 3502. With regard to extending the period of settlement, you seemed to think that if it were so far extended as to ten years, from the difficulty that exists of findiny' even the three years' settlement, that difficulty would be so much increased, that it would be almost POOR LAW INQUIRY COilillSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 207 impossible to ascertain the right; but that would not be the result through the settlement Exainiuatioiis. by birth-place ? — It has the effect just now ; because at present a poor person is knocked about from parish to parish in the town, so that often he is put out of a settlement ^i>"W. Johnston, altogether. He is laid aside as incapable of finding his settlement. Many persons, if they "' ' ' '"'''■ have not resided in the parish for three years prior to their application, are deprived of relief till they make a settlement. They shift and put off in the best way they can till they make it out. 3503. Would a party not have a right of settlement by birth ? — They might have acquired a settlement ; but it is difficult to prove it. 3504. But would he not be entitled by law to a settlement from his place of birth ? — Yes, I should think so. 3505. Is it consistent with your knowledge that parties in the royalty move from parish to parish, that is, across the street, and may be in the town for twenty years, yet not acquire a settlement ? — It is quite possible. 3506. But is it probable ? — 1 have known many who, living in one parish, have not been able to pay the rent of their house, and have been forced to shift into another. Another thing operates against the poor. Very few contemplate having a parochial settlement, and they do not keep their receipts. They don't know their landlords, in many cases, and when they apply for their rents monthly, they get no receipts for rent. In nine cases out of ten they cannot tell which parish they belong to. The authorities themselves have much difficulty in fixing the matter. 3507. Is there much intemperance among the poor? — There is a good deal during times of prosperity ; but less now than during more prosperous times. 3508. Is not the great quantity of public houses a great inducement to them ? — Yes. My own belief is that intemperance begins in prosperous times ; in a proportion of the working classes who are well off, and are making large wages, the seeds of intemperance are sown ; and habits are then induced upon the constitutions of the parties, which they carry with them into their present distress. But upon the whole, in the city of Edin- burgh, there is less intemperance than there was three years ago. And I state that, from my knowledge, as a magistrate, of the number of licenses granted in the city. 3509. Would it not be a beneficial thing if there were fewer licenses 1 — I was going to state that since 1840 fifty-five fewer public houses have been licensed than there were three years ago. 550 are at the present moment licensed ; there were 605 in 1840. 3510. Are you systematically going on suppressing them as you can ? — There is a dif- ference of opinion among the magistrates on that subject. If I were allowed to offer an opinion on the subject of licensing, I should say that very much of the misery entailed on the working classes arises from over licensing ; and that upon the plain commercial prin- ciple that as you increase the number of facilities, you increase the demand. Every person opening a public house entails a certain number of drunkards, for the simple reason that he has friends who encourage him — neighbours who wish to show him countenance. And in proportion as you increase the number of public houses, you increase the number of drunkards. A very great proportion of intemperance arises from the whisky shops, provision shops, and public houses being open on the Sabbath day. The amount of drunkenness on the Sabbath is three or four times what it is on any other day of the week. The easy access to the public house is the means of ruining many of them. On an investigation undertaken by myself, and carried on with the assistance of the officers of police, I found on a Sabbath in November 1841, within the city of Edinburgh, that there were of shops open, selling pro- visions alone (not spirits) 21 9— selling groceries, coals, and the like ; 182 selling provisions and spirits, in addition to the 219 selling provisions alone; 11 selling spirits through wickets, (houses of notorious fame, the wickets being used to hand spirits through the door to parties outside) ; and 46 openly carrying on the business of pawnbroking — not licensed houses, but what are called "wee pawns;" — the total being 722 shops carrying on business on that day. Of these, 104 were opened throughout the entire Sabbath, from morning to night, and 618 were nominally shut during the hours of divine service. I found that in one shop in the High Street eighty -five persons entered within an hour, and 109 came out — the hour between ten and eleven, before the churches go in. This was one public house. I found about the same time that eighty-one whisky shops in the High Street were kept open till half-past one o'clock on Saturday night, or within a quarter of two on Sunday morning. The number of shops open appear very large ; but 1 attribute most misery to the forty-six small pawnshops. They are unlicensed. They keep no books and parties once taking articles to them to get a sum upon them, have no evidence that they give those articles. All the small pawnbrokers deal only with single individuals. They have no witnesses; and there is no mode by which the property can be recovered. They charge 400 per cent, upon the amount advanced. These are their usual terms. By being open on the Sabbath, a person who has dissipated his money one night can take a piece of furnitm-e to the place ; and in nine cases out of ten the property is never recovered. I look upon it as an open system of plunder, leading to all the consequences of Sabbath drinking. In short, I look upon the error in Mr Home Drummond's act as the cause of one-half of the evil, and the wee pawns of the other half. 3511. What act is that? — The licensing act. By a gi-eat mistake, allowing shops to be open, except during divine seiwice. Before that the magistrates often shut them. But in consequence of some words in the schedule of the act of Mr Home Drummond, it was found they could do so legally. U512. Do you think the act should be repealed ? — If these two or three words were taken out, the magistrates could enforce the shutting of shops on the Sabbath. 208 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaminations. Mr W. .lolmsfon. I a Marrli 1843. 3513. Do you think that could be done in country places ? — It is done in the whole county of Dumfries. There is not a single public house open there on the Sabbath, except during the interval of church, when the people can get ale and bread for refresh- ment. I have corresponded with the superintendent of police there ; and find it is very easily managed with a manifest improvement on the habits of the people. 3514. Were you not aware that there was no intention to repeal the old law, but that the object was to make the law more stringent ? — I am quite aware that the intention of Mr Home Drummond's act was not to repeal the old law. The object was to make it more stringent ; but it signally fails from the errors I mentioned. 3515. You mentioned some persons who at a late period of life, when exhausted after living in a country parish, came ultimately on the poor funds of the town parish : do you recollect any case or parish whence they came ? — It is very easy to get the names. But I know when we come to investigate cases of relief, a great number are farm-servants, and have come into town to find light work. 3516. But you have not in your own recollection any such cases? — No, I could not give any names from recollection. 3517. Did the majority come from assessed or from non-assessed parishes? — I make the statement generally, that when men are unfit for country work they are always sure to obtain some work in town. 351 8. But you don't suppose they come to tovra for the purpose of obtaining a settle- ment ? — No, no. My experience led me to say that many who are not capable of enduring the hard work of ploughing, can almost always find some labour in a small burgh or city. 3519. Have you a notion of the number of those who may so have come for the last eight or ten years ? — I have no notion ; but the number is great. It is surprising how few on the lists are of the city proper, or were born in it. 3520. Most of those on the poor's roll have been a good many years in the city ? — A good many years. 3521. Then they are not decaj'ed persons? — We are supporting some such. 8522. Could you state the number? — -No, I should not like to venture the number. 8523. I believe you are a member of the town-council : were you member when an ap- plication was made for an increased assessment from the charity workhouse ? — Yes. 3524. Have they been refused lately ? — One was refused within a few months ; but I did not approve of the refusal. 3525. Why was it refused ? — Principally on account of the mode of application. A former one was refused because it was sought partly to liquidate the debt ; and the majority wished rather to decline it, in order to keep down the rate of assessment. 3526. If there were an application for an increased assessment for relief of the poor for the current year, would such an application be refused ? — No ; not with my consent. 3527. You said you vv'ould provide for the able-bodied poor out of the assessment through the hands of the kirk-session : do you think they should have a permanent claim, or that relief should be given by a temporary assessment? — Temporary, merely temporary. 3528. You mentioned with regard to Heriot's Hospital that you disapprove of such insti- tutions ? — Of the whole of them. I think their tendency bad. They induce people to rely upon them for the support of their children. I refer to such as Heriot's and Watson's. Many having families of five or six children get so many otf their hands that they are care- less in providing for them otherwise. 3529. Do you apply your remark to the new schools of Heriot's Hospital ? — The very reverse. I would turn them all to something of the same kind. These institutions are bad in many ways. I scarcely ever knew a single eminent person coming from Heriot's Hospital. The socialties are generally broken up. 3530. Have you anything to state as to the effect of savings-banks? — I know many who have been raised from degradation by savings-banks. AVe have clothed them and got them into respectable situations, from having made small savings. 3531. Do you think they have an effect in checking intemperance ? — Yes ; very much. I have known many who gave Is. a month which would just have gone for whisky on Saturday night otherwise. 3532. Do you approve of a provision for the aged poor ? — Decidedly, after sixty. There are some men at seventy as able to work as at sixty ; but I would not put the term higher than sixty. 3533. But has not that provision a tendency to impair provident habits when the parties are strong ? — No. I think the general feeling is not to take anything from the parish. There is a very strong feeling on that subject. 3534. Why, if that feeling be so strong, are you afraid of relief in the workhouse as im- pairing industrious habits ? — Because, if I understood your question, it referred to casual relief. I would put no temptation in their way to trust to legal aid. 3535. I think you stated that by and by they might become indolent. But if you make provision for old age, don't you put temptation in their way ? — Yes, but it is when they cannot keep themselves. 3530. Don't you think it would act as an inducement to put less in the savings-banks? — The independent feeling is so strong that it would not operate on the younger men. 3537. But why should not that feeling of reluctance to receive reHef apply to an individual who would receive relief in the workhouse if destitute ? — It might apply ; but none go to the workhouse unless they are driven by necessity. 3538. Then relief in the workhouse would not impair their provident habits ? — After sixty or seventy it would not. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 209 3539. When young ? — I say it would put temptation in their way — you would hold out an Examinations, inducement to idleness. Mr W. Johnston. 18 March 184.H. Mr Johnston, Fanner and Butcher, Examined : — 3540. You arc employed in agi-icultm-e, I believe ? — A little in that way. 3541. Have you had occasion lately to employ people out of work, and under the charge of the relief committee ? — I think, when Mr Tait, Quecnsberry Street, came round for the second subscription, I said that I would not subscribe ; but that if he would send me a certain number of men, I -ivould give them work. In that way there came twenty-seven, as near as I recollect. 3542. What kind of work did you put them to ? — Draining. 3543. What were the wages? — I gave Is. Gd. last year per chain ; this year, Is. 3d. ; twenty-four yards in the chain. 3544. To what depths were the drains? — 2^ feet. 3545. Tile drains ? — Tile drains. They had nothing to do but to open the drains. 354(5. Nothing with the filling or the laying ?- — Nothing. 3547. How long did they stay? — Some for a day, some for three weeks. 3548. How many for three weeks ? — Very few. 1 cannot tell the exact number, for I did not know I would have to give evidence regarding them. I paid them just as they went away. 3549. The second day wei'e there twenty? — I could not positively state the numbers, but there were about twenty the second week. 3550. And would there be ten at the end of three weeks ? — No ; I don't think I had above four or five. 3551. Was the work finished? — No. 3552. W'hat wages woidd they make in a day ? — Some 2s., some Is. A good many of them would make Is. 3d. a day, to the best of my belief. 3553. Do you know if they went to other employments after they left you, or went back to the committee ?— I cannot say. 3554. They would not work at your wages ? — They gave no reason. They took away their im])lement8 without telling why they did so. 3555. Did they find their own implements ? — Yes. 3556. Had you a good overseer? — I did not look over them. I had a man who saw, when the work was finished, that it was done properly. The men who ■were most useful remained longest. 3557. Wlio superintended? — The land-steward on the fai-m. 3558. Was it the same class of men you had both years ? — No ; they are a class I never had before. Mr Johnston, Mr Hugh Miller, Examined : — 3559. I believe you are editor of the Witness newspaper ? — Yes. 35G0. You were formerly connected with the working classes? — I wrought for fifteen years as a mason, — partly as an apprentice, partly as a journeyman. 3561. You are also the author of a work on geology ?— Yes. 3562. You have an extensive acquaintance with the working classes? — I have been among them in country and town districts, both in the south and in the north of Scotland. 3563. Are the working classes of Scotland, generally, of frugal habits? — I have seen a very great difference in different localities. I should say, of the working classes of the north country, that, generally, they are of frugal habits ; the same class are not so much charac- terized by such habits in the south country, or in the neighbourhood of our larger towns. I have seen a marked difference betwixt the masons of the country and the masons of town districts, for instance. 3564. In which part do you reckon them most careful and provident ? — In the counties of Ross and Cromarty, with which parts I was better accpiaintcd than with any other of our country districts, I should say they are decidedly more fi-ugal than the same class here ; only iiiy knowledge of the class here belongs rather to sixteen or eighteen years ago, than to the present time. 3565. Where masons and other workmen of the same class have these frugal habits, are they In the practice of laying up a provision, while weU employed, to support them under other circumstances ? — W'itli regard to the masons of the north country, they have very little employment during the winter. They are obliged to make provision for the period of non-employment, and provident habits are engendered by their knowing that they will not have work dm-ing the winter ; but In the south this is not so much the case, for masons in the south are employed In sheds during winter ; and that seems to be one of the causes why they are not so provident here as there. 3566. Do you think It would interfere with the provident habits of workmen, to give able-bodied men a right to relief when they are out of employment, either In winter or during such occasional seasons of distress as the present ? — I think It decidedly would. 3567. Then you think it would be more advisable to leave them to casual relief by the 2 E Mr H. Miller. 210 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ExaiiiitiMious. kirk-scssIon, or to tlie generosity of neighbours, rather tlian give legal relief of that kind ? — If ~T~T~r Working men alone were concerned in the question, I should say so ; but there is a class lu Mttitli'lBYa dependent on working men. The working man has frequently a family or relatives depen- dent on him for suppoi-t. He may be taken away from them, and they left in very difterent circumstances from what they would have been had he been spai-ed. 3568. You mean, when a man leaves a widow and childi-en? — Yes, or an immanied sister, or an aged parent. This class belongs to a different category than the working men themselves. 3569. Am I to understand that you think when a man is able-bodied and perfectly capable of working for the maintenance of himself and family, it would not be for the advantage of that class of society at large to give them a right to parochial relief when they are tin-own out of employment by the severity of the season or by extraordinary circumstances ? — I think it would be a very great disadvantage to them. 3570. Do you find a very great love of independence among the poorer classes, particu- larly among the working classes ? — I hope there is still much of that, though perhaps not so much as at a former time, of which I am just old enough to have some recollection. 3571. Do you think the situation of the working classes generally, of late years, has been getting worse than what it was before ? — My acquaintance with them is limited to a certain class. Of the manufactming operatives I can say comparatively little, but I understand that is the case with them in a marked degree ; it is also so with those I am acquainted with, but not in a degi'ee so marked as with the manufactui-ing operatives. 3572. You have turned your attention, I dare say, to the subject of the poor laws, as well as to other subjects, as these laws are now existing in Scotland ? — I have seen a good deal of what I may term pauperism in the fomiing among different classes, arising from different causes, in different parts of the coimtry, and I have been led of course to think on the subject. 3573. Now, be kind enough to state to us what observations you would make with regard to an alteration of the existing law, as applicable to the different circumstances in which you have seen different classes of the comnnmity ? — The circumstances of different classes are so very different ; for instance, I have been in the northern highlands, where I have seen almost a new system introduced. There Avas a small farm system in Sutherlandshire, for instance, through which the people were spread over the interior of the country, that has been done away with. The population of the county continues still as great as before, but they are no longer spread equally over it. They have been thrown down on the coasts to live by the sea — a very precarious means of subsistence — and seem fast sinking into pau- perism. I lived for a short time in the interior of Sutherland when the old system prevailed, and think there was scarcely any fear of pauperism under it. I have since seen the class on the coasts in such circumstances of misery, that I don't see what other mode of relief than assess- ment can be devised for them. They live on the very edge of starvation ; so much so, that every season of scarcity elsewhere is a season of famine to them. What the effect of an assessment might be, however, I don't know. I think there is a decided change for the worse among the highlanders thrown down on the coast, not only in circumstances, but also in character. They have no longer that independent spirit which they once possessed. Stewart of Garth, in his work on the Highlands, refers to the fact. That is one class. There is another, of which I know a good deal — the fishermen of Scotland. The hening fishing has added, no doubt, to the national wealth, but I think it bids fair also to be the means of adding considerably to the pauperism of the country. Success is so uncertain, the employment so resembles a kind of gambling, that it is apt to produce habits of unsteadi- ness. I have found pauperism fast spreading among this class in the part of the country I am best acquainted with — Cromarty, m especial ; also in Wester Ross ; but there the fisher- men more properly come under the class of highlanders forced down on the coasts, to which I have referred. It is so difficidt a case that I cannot come to a decision as to what should be done with regard to this class. I may mention, however, with reference to the fishermen of Cromarty, that, some sixty or seventy years ago, there was a very extensive religious awakening among them ; and that they at once rose in their morals and in their habits of providence in consequence. The influence has veiy much passed away ; and they are now sunk much lower than their fathers, and have not the same provident habits. If they could be brought into the same religious state, I make no doubt the same moral and economic effects would follow as before. They would become more provident, and we shoidd not have the same amount of pauperism among them. Among the religious classes there is invariably much less pauperism than among the irreligious, and the cause is obvious. I spent part of two years — 1824 and 1825 — in the south country, immediately before the great crisis of 1825 ; wages were then high and em{)loyment abundant, and there was a great amount of dissipation among the workmen. I scarce knew a man among the masons with whom I wrought at that time who was saving money. Wages in 1824 were at 24s. a week, and rose to even a higher rate in 1825 ; money might have been saved by the workmen, but Avas not, in conse- quence of their improAndent habits ; and I know some of these very men who are now in a state of destitution. The dissipation of the period was a process of fonning paupers. I have seen both the process, and some of the paupers whom it produced. Now, I knew — (unfortunately this is not a very numerous class)— I knew a labourer whose wages did not amount to half the wages of the mechanics he served, who saved money out oi these, just because he had moral habits. He was a true rejjresentative of the religious class who achieve independence, the others of the iiTeligious, who become paupers in consequence of their irre- ligion. It is difficult to concentrate one's views on a subject of such width, where the record of observation extends over perhaps some twenty or four-and-twenty years. POOR LAW INQUIRY COIMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 211 3574' Then you have no doubt that on all classes it would produce the best effects, if more Examinations, attention were paid to tlie religious education of the j)eople ? — Decidedly so. I have remarked ^j^ h. MilU-r this among the workmen whom I have known, that mere intelligence was no guarantee la March 11)43. against dissipated habits, whereas a man religiously disposed had a barrier betwixt him and dissipation. Regarding a man of mere intelligence, I could not premise fi'om the circum- stance of his intelligence that he was not dissipated. I have found as much dissipation among the merely educated classes as among those who were least so. I have, however, seen the advantages of education in keeping the class from the meaner crimes, such as thieving ; but it has no beneficial tendency with regard to drinking, or illicit connexion, or the like. There is a class of meaner crimes, against which intelligence is a guard ; but it is no guard against another class, not so generally thought mean, but which has just as much a tendency to (b-aw men into pauperism as the former. 3575. But, jirovided there were a good religious education, woidd you have any objection to an increase of instruction, in order to increase the general intelligence ? — Surely not. 3576. Do you think the working classes suffer from the present law of settlement, and that when they fall into old age, they find a difficulty in establishing a claim to relief? — My experience has not been so much among positive paupers as among the class out of which paupers grow. 3577. Do you think it would be advisable to alter the law of settlement, either by making birth the only ground of giving relief, or by making the time necessary for acquiring a settle- ment greater than at present ? — I think the time at least should be greater. The other matter I have not thought of. I know we suffer much from Irish coming over in such vast numbers ; and settlement by bu'th might be brought to bear beneficially for the country upon them. I am not so sure, however, that it would be a more beneficial arrangement with respect to any other class. 3578. Do you think the circumstances of the labouring classes in Scotland generally much deteriorated by the influx of Irish ? — I have wrought on some occasions with parties of work- men who were served by Irish laboiu-ers ; and I have seen Scottish labourers wanting employment at the time, who, I suppose, would have been employed had not these Irish been in the country. 3579. Have you seen that happen among the masons ? — I have seen scarce any mechanics from Ireland — they are mostly labourers. 3580. Serving masons ? — Yes ; I never saw but one Irish mason, and he professed not to be an Irishman. 3581. Do the working classes you are acquainted with, belong to friendly or yearly societies ? — In the town of Cromarty, where I resided for many years, there were three of these saving societies ; and almost aU the mechanics of the place belonged to some one or other of them. Savings-banks were not common in those districts when I best knew them. 3582. Was it common for parties to save, by some way or other, in their own houses, or by vesting money in small purchases ? — In the north country, there is not so much capital embarked in trade as here, where there are many master builders who undertake great works, with twenty, thirty, or forty men under them. There, on the contrary, the squads are small, composed mostly of two or three men working under a master. I have found generally, that the master workman had saved, and, in many instances, the journejTnen also. In such cases, where capital is spread thinly, but pretty equally, over the sm'face of a country, there is very little material for pauperism. A small farmer, for instance, very rarely becomes a pauper himself, and he employs scarce any who do ; and thus, under the small farm system, there is scarcely any element out of which pauperism can grow. But where there is a large accumulation of capital — where a farmer has ten or fifteen men working under him, there is much of that element. There is one man exempted — the farmer himself ; but all imder him are a class out of which pauperism grows. 3583. Would you have any objection to state when you began, what the wages were, and what you saved ? — I wrought for 22s. per week when first I came to the south country. 1 cannot so well state what 1 might have saved without casting an average of my gains. 1 used to save money during the working season for the winter; but my plan was not to accumulate a sum for old age, but to see whether I might not secure leisure in which to improve my mind, that I might rise to some other employment. Therefore I cannot say what I might have saved. My system was different from that of some others of my acquaint- ance. For instance, the master with whom I served my time, began as a journeyman ; he added slowly to his savings, tiU he was able at length to buy a small property. He died only a short time since, having saved enough to keep him independent dming the years in which he could not work, and to leave some Uttle money besides. 3584. How many months in the year were you idle ? — I have been idle from Hallowe'en for half a year. Perhaps I was not so anxious to get employment during that period as some others. I used to tliink that working during summer and harvest gave me a right to apply the winter as I have stated. 3585. You saved one-half the year that you might have leisure to improve your mind the other half ?— Yes. 3586. Did you know other persons similarly circumstanced who did not save? — Many, I have known married men, with families, who made a good deal during their working season, and spent as they got ; wliile at other times they had not the means of a livehhood ; and thus the cycle went on, till they became unfit for labour. 3587. How old were you at this time ? — I was seventeen when I became an apprentice, and wrought as a mason tUI I was thiily-two. I then received an appointment as account- 212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exuminations. ant in a bank office, and after acting in that capacity for five years, undertook the editorship M • H M'll ^^ *^^ Witness. I's March 1843. 3588. Did you know other persons in nearly or precisely the same circumstances as your- self, who did not save at all, or did not save as much as yourself? — I have known in the south country men who have saved none during the summer months, in the hope of getting employment during the winter, and then they were reduced to very great misery when they failed in getting it ; but most of them, in such circumstances, got on during the winter, either on credit or by borrowing. Generally, however, the winter season is a period of very considerable suflPering with this class. 3589. Don't you think it woidd have been hard if they had come to you and asked you to give them part of your earnings ? — -That could only have happened in the south country ; in the north country I was scarcely ever applied to. 3590. Do you think it a good thing that working men shoidd have a provision for old age from assessment ? — It would be, perhaps, well that provision should be made that, when quite unable to work, they should not suffer extreme distress, taking care, however, that the pro- vision has not the effect of injuring their provident habits. I have seen the very probability that workmen might have employment in Avinter militating against them ; there was cer- tainty in the north, or almost certainty, that they should have none, and that certainty led to providence. 3591. Then, as to any arrangements with regard to relief, don't you think it better to have a certain than an uncertain law ? — I don't know that I draw that inference. 3592-. Do you not think the prospect of having a provision for old age would impair the provident habits of the labouring men ? — I think decidedly it would. 3593. Do you think it desirable that there should be such a provision? — I confess the case is so very difficult that I hesitate. I shoidd be most unwilling to do anything to interfere with the provident habits of the working classes ; at the same time, the aged must not be allowed to starve. But if means could be devised of caring for the class who arc really des- titute, so as not to interfere with the j)rovident habits of other classes, such a provision might be advisable. 3594. Do you think provision should be made for widows with children ? — If the country be in that state in which I am afraid it is, with reference to at least oiu: large towns, where voluntary contributions are insufficient, I see no other alternative. 3595. You were saying that there is a certain class in Scotland of able-bodied, for whom an assessment is necessary ? — I am not aware. 359G. In the highlands ? — They are in such pecidiar circumstances in the highlands. For instance, the highlands were twice visited with famine during the last few years, and contri- butions were made all over the kingdom. I know that there is a class there continually on the very verge of famine. 3597. You are of opinion that there should be an assessment for a certain class in the highlands ? — Perhaps an occasional assessment. I have seen extreme misery among the highlanders, and the system also from which it has arisen. It might, perhaps, be proper that an occasional assessment on the class who have benefited most by that system should take the place of these national contributions, 3598. You would have a provision by assessment for them ? — I can't see what else is to be done ; and yet I can see disadvantages in an assessment too. 3599. Do you think it would do to have an assessment for a certain class of persons, as distinguished from others in a certain part of the highlands, as distinguished from other parts of Scotland ? Do you think it would be jiracticablc to make a distinction between the classes ? — On these details, I can't say I have quite made up my mind. 3600. With regard to able-bodied persons generally, from your knowledge of Scottish habits, do you think if relief in workhouses under strict regulations, were given to destitute able-bodied persons, that this woidd impair their provident habits materially? — In some degree, I think it might. 3601. Do j'ou think you yourself would, in the slightest degree, have been affected by the consideration that relief would be given to destitute persons in the workhouse ? — No, I don't think I would. 3602. Or, generally, the class of industrious working men ? — With regard to the class of average character, I think it woidd make a difference. A man would not save for whiter if his neighbour could be assessed for his support in winter. 3603. If reUef coidd be given in such a fonn as would not be desirable, do you think that would impair a man's industrious habits ? — Much would, no doubt, depend on the character and amount of the check. 3604. From your knowledge of the working classes, do you think they desire any altera- tion of the law? — I have had very little connexion with the working classes since the question came to be agitated in Scotland. I can scarce say I know their feeling about the poor law. 3605. Supposing the alternative were between a system of begging and a system of legal- ized relief, which would have the most prejudicial effect on tlie character ? — In tiie north country, I never saw but one beggar whom I had known previously ivs a working man. I have seen many, however, who said they had been working men. 3606. But supposing, with reference to the south country, the alternative was betwLxt begging and legalized relief, which would be most advantageous to the character ? — Begging, certainly, coidd we suppose that numbers should have recourse to it, woxdd be most injurious. I must hold, however, tliat, with the working men who resort to it, the tone of feeling must have been previously very low. rOOR LAAV INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 213 3607. There is a great number of the lower Irish in Edinburgh ? — I have heard that a very considerable proportion of those employed just now in the Meadow's and the King's Park are Irish. 3608. With regard to such individuals, don't you think there is a certain diflScidty in put- ting down begging, unless legalized relief be offered ?^Very great difficulty, no doubt. There are swarms of beggars, at the present time, with whom one does not know how to deal ; but if there were an adequate assessment, many feel there would be a very good apology for not giving them aid, which they in too many cases misuse. 3609. Have you reason to believe that parties leave the country parishes to go into towns, for the purjiose of obtaining a settlement ? — I have not much expei-icnce of that. 3610. You know no facts of the kind of your own knowledge ? — No ; at second hand only. 3611. I imderstand you place the greatest reliance, for a check on pauperism, upon the improvement of the moral and religious education of the jjcople ? — Decidedly so. 3612. And that would be much more advantageous than to make an increased allowance? — That is prospectively. There is a number of poor created already, upon which moral means woidd not operate— aged and broken down persons, in their winter of life, who must remain pau])cr8 let their characters improve as they may. The moral means must be prospective in their effects. 3613. Do you think it would be possible, in Edinburgh, to provide for the poor by volun- tary contribution ? — Not, I am afraid, in the present state of things in Edinburgh. 3614. Woidd you alter the constitution of the body, to whom you would entrust the funds ? — I know too little of that subject to venture an opinion on it, Examinations. Mr H. Miller. 18 March U43. Sir William Di'ysdale, Treasurer of the City of Edinburgh, Examined : — 3615. You are a member of the town-council, and treasiu-er of the city ? — I am. 3616. Have you had opportunities of judging of thepoOr laws? — I have paid considerable attention to the subject. I am not minutely acquainted with the details ; I never was an acting maniigcr of the charity workhouse, looking after the admission of the paupers, but I have had occasion to be present at their meetings, and also at meetings of the town-council, to deliberate on the motions for an assessment. 3617. It has fi-cquently been represented to the town-council that the allowance for the poor was inadequate ? — Certainly. 3618. What has been the consequence — has the legal assessment been increased ? — No ; the general anxiety of the town-council is to keep down the rates. I have made some notes in my memorandum-book, with regard to the applications, and the deliverances of the town-council. In August 1830, a memorial was presented from the managers of the charity workhouse, asking an assessment of 6 per cent., which was granted ; in August 1831, a memorial was presented, asking 6 per cent., which was granted ; in 1832, the managers presented a memo- rial, craving that the magistrates and town-coimcU would authorize a general collection in the churches and chapels of the city, to which the magistrates and council agreed ; and there was a letter fi-om Dr Gordon, returning the memorial, and stating, on the part of the sessions, that they could not acquiesce. This was in the cholera year. Then a committee was appointed to confer on the 26th of August 1832 ; and it was agreed that the managers should commence a public subscription. Six per cent, of assessment was granted ; there was also a voluntary contribution ; and an ajipeal was made to the College of Justice. On the 11th of September 1833, a memoi-ial v.^as presented by the managers to the town- council, asking 6 per cent., which was granted ; on the 7th of October 1834, 6 per cent, was granted; on the 17th of September 1835, a memorial was presented, asldng 6 per cent., which was granted. 3619. Those were only annual ?— Annual. In September 1836, 6 per cent, was asked and granted. In September 1837, there was a memorial from the managers, asking an assessment of 6^ per cent. The treasurer's committee reported that no sufficient case had been made out for the additional half per cent. — that the deficiency on last year's expenditure was only 327/., while there were of unpaid dividends remaining 199Z. The additional half per cent, was refused. The managers took a protest. Then, in July 1838, a motion was made, that the assessment should be 7 per cent. ; but an amendment, that the assessment should be con- tinued at 6 per cent, was carried. These are all the notes I have. 3620. Were those applications which were rejected, rejected solely on the ground that it was imnecessary to increase the assessment for the poor of the city of Edinburgh ? — It is very difficult to say with regard to a large body, A\hat are the opinions that operate. But the great object was economy. The council wished to keep the people from p.aying more, — they wished to keep down the rate of assessment. 3621. Have you any knowledge of the condition of the poor in Edinbm-gh? — There is great destitution. 3622. Do you conceive their allowances are sufficient ? — Quite inadequate in my opinion. I hold in my hand a list of the outdoor pensions. 3623. Then of course you are of opinion, that in order to meet the demand for increased allowances, it is nece8t:ary to Increase the assessment ? — Certaiidy. I consider our Scottish law defective, as it throws upon friends a great proportion of the expense of supporting the pauper. The Scottish notion is, that parochial assistance should merely eke out. 3624. If the exemptions of the College of Justice were done away, would the allowance Sir W. Urysdale. L 214 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Extuiiiiiaiions. not require to be raised by means of addditional assessment ? — It would still require to be i-aised. There is a great mistake in the common supposition that the exemption of the Col- 18 M;iicl?ia4;ir ^S^ *^^ Justice withdi-a-ws a large amount. 394,405/. is the rental of the whole city within the police bounds. The rental beyond the royalty is 173,686/. This was three years ago; but IS substantially the same as it is now. 3625. There is no exemption beyond the royalty ? — None. The whole rental of the Col- lege of Justice is only 29,024/. ; and were the exemption withdrawn from all new entrants Into the college, not very many years would elapse before it woidd be done away altogether. 3626. Does it occur to you whether any alteration of the law would be advisable or neces- sary ? — Yes ; I think there ought to be an extension of the years necessary to constitute a settlement — probably to seven years at least, providing, however, that the laws of the whole imited kingdom as to settlement were assimilated. 3627. Do you conceive there ought to be any appeal from the existing authorities — from the heritors and kirk-sessions — on behalf of the poor ? — I think there ought to be an appeal to the sheriff in the small-debt court. 3628. Would that not leave very much to the feeling of the individual sheriff? — I see a difficulty there ; but what can you do ? — K you keep the system as it is, you really give parties interested a right to refuse relief. I think the sheriff would be the more impartial judge of the two ; and, besides, an appeal might be given to the district sheriffs sitting in the registration courts, whose decisions should be final. 3629. Are you of opinion that the system in the royalty of Edinburgh, conducted through the managers of the charity workhouse, is a better system than if it were under the ordinary administration of the kirk-session ? — There are so many dissenters now. My ideas are to have a surveillance like that of deacons ; but they ought to be chosen both from churchmen and dissenters. 3630. Have you any reason to believe that pauperism is increasing or decreasing? — It is •• increasing from many causes. The first is the immense immigration from Ireland to the ])ublic works which are always going on. Then the ordinary attraction which large to\vn8 have to bring away people from the country also operates. 3631. Have there been any representations recently from the managers of the charity workhouse to the town-coiuicil with regard to the state of the poor ? — There have been none. 3632. You are aware the subject has been a good deal discussed lately ? — There has been a great deal talked about the unemployed. 3633. I mean the ordinary poor? — No, nothing. 3634. Do you think it would be proper to give those who are out of employment from the season, or from temporary causes, a legal claim to relief from the poor's funds ? — I have great doubts. Scotland has been so long under a perfectly different system ; but there ought to be some law on the subject, giving certain powers to the sheriff. If a great pressure occurs, the judge ought to be allowed to order an assessment. But as to making it perpe- tual, I have very great doubts about that indeed. 3635. You suggest that it shoidd be mei'cly for temporary distress ? — Yes, when it does occur. 3636. Do you think it possible that the frequent refusals of the town-council to raise an assessment may account for the managers not having applied lately for an increase ? — Oh, I have no doubt they knew perfectly what answer they woidd get. 3637. The town-council has the power to do it? — Not a doubt of it. There is not the slightest doubt of their right. 3638. Have you heard any talk as to the poor acting upon the recent decision of the Court of Session ? — I have not. It is not generally known. 1 have no doubt it will have an effect immediately. 3639. If that were to be carried out to any extent ? — It would force a new law. I have a paper about the plan which was lately proposed to do away with the present difficidties arising from the debt of the charity workhouse. [The " Kevised Report of the Sub-Com- mittee appointed by the Law Committee of the Town Council in regard to the Affairs of the Charity Workhouse, 9th March 1841," was then put in.] 3640. Have you anything to suggest ? — Notliing. But with I'cgard to the Prince of Wales' Fund, I can give any information if required. Nearly 3000/. was collected instead of an illumination ; and more than 8000 people came to get a share. 3G41. What class ? — A great many poor, but also a great many who woidd not have taken parochial assistance. But they had no objection to take their share of nicid or coals. I find a notion has gone abroad, that all were paupers who applied. It is a mistake. The number of people relieved was very great ; for if you take the 8000, and multiply that number by four, as is usual in reckoning the families, the result is, that 32,000 got relief. There was no limitation with regard to the relief; but, besides those who were paupers, there was a vast number of others. 3642. Many labouring people ? — Many labouring people and small shopkeepers. 3643. It appears that the numbers who stated claims, and the persons into whose condi- tion inquiries were made when that fund was distributed, was 32,000 ? — That is my calcu- lation. 3644. That is merely an estimate ? — Merely an estimate. 3645. All that is known is, that the money was distributed among 8000 families ? — Yes. 3646. And was care taken that the persons who went to visit were such as to discharge the duty properly ? — It was done by the commissioners of police — not the best body perhaps ; but they had raised the collection. There was a good dciil of abuse. POOR LAW INQIHRY CO^VIMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 215 3647. Did they inquire into the condition of the people, or judge from the appearance of Examinations, their houses ?^ — Every commissioner ouofht to have made, or did make, inquiry with regard . Sir W. Drvsdale. to every person. . . . . . r. ••.•.,, 18 Ma.cl.-1843. 3648. Do you think their opinion was formed to any great extent trom visitmg the houses of the parties ? — With really painstakuig men, that would be done. But I know there are many who would take the thing in an overly way. 3649. So many did not visit the houses. But of those who did, could you say whether they judged from the appearance of the furniture ? — I have no doubt of it. I know that several of the commissioners went most minutely through their districts. 3650. Do you think they judged on the idea that the appearance of the house indicated the circumstances of the inmates ? — It is an element. 3651. But may it not be fallacious ? — It may. 3652. May not dissipated persons spend much money without paying attention to their furniture ? — Undoubtedly. 3653. So that this is a fallacious mode of judging? — Yes. It may sometimes be so. The Rev. Dr William Steven, Governor of George Heriot's Hospital, Examined : — p, w. Steven. 3654. You are governor of Heriot's Hospital ? — I am. 3655. Be so good as give us the history of the origin and system under which the out- door schools have been established ? — Heriot's Hospital, one of the most venerable and valu- able educational institutions of the kmd in the kingdom, is to Edinburgh what the Blue Coat School is to London. Its income having exceeded the expenditure, the governors, about seven years ago, obtained parliamentary sanction to extend the benefits of the esta- blishment, by the erection of elementary schools in various parts of the city. The intellec- tual system, pursued in the Edinburgh Sessional School, was adopted as the model. The first school established was opened in 1838. 3656. Under an act of parliament ? — By an act of parliament passed in the year 1836. 3657. To enable the governors to apply the sm-plus funds to the erection of schools ? — Yes; to erect the Heriot Foundation Schools, for educating, \st, The poor children of de- ceased burgesses and freemen; 2d, The children of burgesses and freemen who are unable to provide for their support ; and, M, The childi-en of poor citizens and inhabitants of Edin- burgh. There are now seven schools, namely, five juvenile and two infant schools. At Heriot Bridge there is a juvenile school. In the High Street we have three schools under one roof, — two juvenile schools and an infant school. At the Cowgate Port there is a juve- nile school, and a similar one immediately above, but entering from the High School Yards, where also there is an infant school. These buildings are elegant, substantial, commodious, and well ventilated. At this time the seven Heriot schools are attended by upwards of 2000 boys and girls. Each juvenile school has a master and sewing-mistress ; and each infant school has a female teacher, with an assistant. To each juvenile school a library is attached for the use of the scholars. 3658. VVhat is the species and extent of the instruction ? — The usual elementary instruc- tion, — a sound English education on christian principles. 3659. Do you teach any language except EngUsh ? — Only English to the children ; but a superior education is given to the male and female apprentices, or assistant teachers in the five juvenile schools. In each school there are four paid apprentices, who are bound for three years, and they are instructed by the teachers, each taking a particular branch. One takes elocution, vnth English grammar and etymology ; another French and history ; a third, the theory and practice of arithmetic, with the elements of algebra ; a fourth, geography and penmanship ; and a fifth, Latin, and English composition. Such is the higher instruction given to the assistants. 3660. For the whole schools ? — For the juvenile schools. There are twenty paid appren- tices, four for each school. They meet for instruction in the branches just enumerated, in each school alternately, five hours weekly. 3661. It is only the apprentices that receive such instruction? — Only the apprentices, to fit them for teachers. 3662. My question is directed rather to the great body of the children : What is the ex tent of instruction they get ? — The children are taught English readmg, grammar, etymo- logy, geogi'aphy, arithmetic, book-keeping, penmanship, and lineal drawing. The girls are taught all kinds of sewing, as also samplers, and knitting. There is a teacher of vocal music. The Bible is read every day, and the schools are opened and closed with praise and prayer. The books used in the schools are, in addition to the Bible and Shorter Cate- chism, the Schoolmaster's Primer; the late Dr Andrew Thomson's series of English Lessons; the Fifth Irish Collection ; and Dr Steven's Progressive Geography. 3663. Do they go to mathematics at all ? — They do not ; but the children are thoroughly exercised in arithmetic. 3664. Have you a limit in the ages ? — At first we were under the necessity of taking many who were much older than we could have supposed, unable to read. We have no specific rules on the subject. The governors seldom admit any now above twelve, without a suffi- I cient reason. The children generally leave the school when about thirteen or fourteen. 3665. And what is the age of the youngest taken in ? — In the infant schools, we have them at twenty-two months. The generality of the children are tliree and four years of 216 MINUTES OF E\1DENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations. l)r W. Stevens. Iti Mnioh 1843. age wlien enrolled. Tliey remain in the infiuit school till they are five or six, when they are then usually draughted from the infant to the juvenile schools. The children of burgesses have a prior claim, provided their parents or natural guai'dians require such assistance. Failing burgesses, the governors select from the applications the children residing in the immediate locality of the school. They must reside within the royalty. If the parents leave the royalty, they cease to participate in the precious advantages which the Heriot schools impart to the citizens of Edinburgh. 3666. You have none from the West Church ? — None, except in cases where the parents are burgesses. If they arc so, residence does not matter. 3667. Is there any prescribed form of application for admission ? — There are two printed forms of petition for the admission of pupils, one being specially intended for burgesses and freemen of the city of Edinburgh ; the other for those who are not burgesses. Not being aware of the precise line of examination, I did not bring these papers along with me. 3668. The children are almost all the children of the poorer classes ? — The majority un- questionably are so. There are, however, many children of burgesses, and of people in the middling ranks of life ; for instance, industrious tradesmen with large families. The cir- cumstances of the parties applying are always taken Into consideration. I shall lay before the Commission copies of the printed petitions and queries, with other documents regarding the Heriot schools. 3669. None of the parents pay anything? — None. The schools are free schools, — strictly so. The teachers are prohibited from accepting of any gratuity whatever. 3670. Do the parents in the lower classes seem to take an interest in the matter?— They take a very deep interest, and many of them have expressed themselves in the most grateful manner, particularly on removing their children from school. 3671. My questions alluded to paupers generally? — There is a great number of very poor persons, whether they are exactly paupers 1 cannot tell, who have children at the Heriot schools, particidarly in the one at the Cowgate Port, which is attended by 400 children. These people are most thankfid for the education of their children. This is clearly seen in the regidarity of the attendance of the scholars generally. The Cowgate Port school, be- ing the largest of the Heriot schools, the teacher there has, independently of the apprentices, a regular salaried assistant appointed by the governors. 3672. Is there any limitation with regard to the number of children you receive from any one family ? — That depends very much upon the number of applications on the roll. Some- times three are received at a time from one family. 3673. Have you more applications than vacancies ? — A great many more. 3674. Then, if the system were extended, you are of opinion that a great many more would apply for admission ?— Such is my opinion, more especially for admission into the juvenile schools, as distinguished from the infant schools. So soon as the surplus funds of the hospital will admit of it, ste]is will assuredly be taken to erect more schools. The governors have actually acquired three additional sites for the purjiose. One of the sites is in the New Town. 3675. Have you any means of knowing whether the number of 2000 in the schools is about the proportion of paupers' children throughout the town, or can you judge of that from the number of applications ? — I do not know the precise number of such children in Edinburgh; but I believe that the applications are such that we are scarcely able to meet the demand. Perhaps there may be 300 petitions for admission in the treasurer's hands just now. It is a remarkable fact with regard to the Heriot schools, that though many minor schools have been annihilated, the principal English schools in town have increased in numbers. This has been particularly the case with respect to Dr Bell's schools. It was thought that, when the Heriot schools were set on foot, these excellent primary schools would have been injured. But the institution of the former has had a contrary effect ; for, in many instances, where persons have applied for admittance to the Heriot schools, and been- unsuccessful, the children so disappointed have themselves been so anxious to get into some school, that their parents have thereby been induced to send them to the Bell schools, and similar semina- ries, where a small fee is charged. 3676. So that the schools have diffiised such a taste, that the demand for schooling has increased ? — Yes, to a much greater extent than I could have imagined. 3677. These Heriot schools are entirely under the management of the governors or of a committee of the managers of the hospital ? — Under the governors, who, however, nominate a committee of their number to direct all matters connected with the schools. 3678. You have heard that the children attended pretty regidarly ? — I have the ftillest access of knowing that they do attend very regularly. I am inspector of the schools, as well as governor of the parent institution, and visit the schools periodically. Regidarity of attendance is strictly enjoined. The average amount of children absent from ill health, and other unavoidable causes, may, perhaps, be estimated at 10 per cent. 3679. Then it does not agree with your experience that it is desirable to obtain some little fee from the pupils ? — I must candidly confess from what I have seen of the Heriot schools, that the free system is working better than I anticipated. I took the liberty of recommending to the governors, when six of our schools were opened in 1840, that a small weekly sura should be levied from each pupil ; and I suggested that one penny a week should be the sum ; that, as a record of this, a book should be kept by the master, having so many cohunns as there were weeks in the school session. I suggested that the sums placed to the child's credit should be put into the savings-bank, and given to the boys or girls on quitting school, and might be useful in buying necessary articles when they became apprentices, or entered service. My object was, In this way, to excite both parents and children to economical habits, POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 217 and not in reality to take any money. Though some of the governors suggested that a Esaminations. penny a week sliould be charged, and be exchxsively applied to tlie maintenance of a library ;— for the use of the scholars, tlie majority considered it better not to charge any fees whatever, /g'^^^rch I84si 3(380. What I want to ask you is with regard to the state in which the children are clad generally — whether generally theu- clothing is very bad ? — In some cases, it certainly is very bad ; but the governors insist as far as possible on neatness. This has had a beneficial effect not merely on the children, but likewise on the personal appearance of the parents. Our treasurer is authoi-ized to give a small proportion of the cast clothes and shoes of the boys in the hospital to each of the juvenile schools, to be divided by the male and female teachers. The great proportion is given to the ministers of the different city parishes, to be divided by the respective kirlc-sessions. Through this channel several of the children are supplied with clothes. Very many of the scholars are excessively poor, especially those living in the Cowgate, and in the wynds or lanes which connect it with the High Street. 3681. Would it not be a great advantage if some means Avere provided for keeping tolerable clothing upon them, and for enabling them to make themselves clean ? — It certainly would be desirable, though it could scarcely be expected that the governors, as patrons of the schools, coidcl clothe 2000 children of both sexes. One regulation of the scliools is, that if the scholars come in an untidy state, they are instantly sent home by their teacher. It is not found necessary to send the same child frequently back to its relations, for the same cause. Prizes are given for cleanliness. 3682. Were you resident in IloUand for some time ? — I was. 3683. In what part ? — At Rotterdam. 3684. How long ? — Thu-teen years, as one of the ministers of the National Scottish Church there. My residence abroad extended from the year 1826 till 1839, when I had the honour to be entrusted with my present appointment in G eorge Heriot's Hospital. 3685. You had opportunities of judging of the Dutch system with reference to the poor? — I had. 3686. Would you explain generally what is their system ? — The Dutch pay more attention to the poor than any nation I know; and, as is well known, the country abounds with hospitals of various kinds, for the old and the young. The poor of Holland are almost entirely under the management of ecclesiastical persons. By ecclesiastical jiersons, I mean lay members of the consistories or kirk-sessions, — more particidarly the deacons. The deacons, active young men, belonging to families in the higher and middle classes of society, bestow a very great deal of time upon the poor. While I was in Holland, I never saw a person in the streets begging, and I never heard of a person dying from hunger. The Dutcn poor are supported by voluntary contributions ; many wealthy people have fi-om time to time bequeathed to the kirk-sessions very large sums of money ; for instance, to the Scottish church at Rotter- dam, a native of Holland, who was a member of that congregation in the beginning of the last century left about 4000^., to be administered by the kirk-session. He left it to be administered to his poor relations in the first instance, and next a certain proportion to the poor of that congregation. Others have also left considerable sums of money to the Scottish church. I know, with regard to the Dutch Refomied Chiu-cli, that very large sums have been left to that respectable body, for charitable pui-poses. The money is generally in the funds ; and the interest is divided every year by the deacons, and also expended in pur- chasing fuel, turf, bread and potatoes. The deacons, indeed, are most indefatigable and devoted workers in this labour of love. They meet in the session-house on Saturdays, and see loaves distributed to the poor, and they then also give a small pecuniary allowance. Once a quarter a collection is made tlu-oughout the large towns. The collections are made by gen- tlemen, who go round with silver salvers; and a poorhouse boy and a policeman generally go before. In consequence of gentlemen taking that trouble, much larger sums are collected. The quarterly collections are for the general poor — there is a quarterly collection in the same way for the Jewish poor. The collection for the poor in the churches is also very considerable. The collection is not made in the Dutch churches at the door, but the deacons and several other collectors go round the chm'ch and collect dining the time of service. 3687. In the old Scottish fashion? — Yes. There is another circumstance which may be noticed. The deacons, towards the fall of the year, in October, have a meeting, and con- tract with individuals to ftirnish bread, potatoes, and fuel. In Holland, all the bread, pota- toes, and fuel, furnished to the churches, are pro Deo; in other words, are free of the direct local tax leviable on such articles of consumption. Many charitable persons avail themselves of this opportunity to present through the deacons, potatoes and fuel to other objects of charity ; and of course they get these articles at the contract price. I do not believe that any bad use is made of this by any party : the deacons know the individuals who give charity in that way, and see that the benevolent are not imposed upon. There is another mode of collecting money for the poor in Holland. In all public places, such as the theatre, and exhi- bitions of various kinds, 2d. is put upon each ticket, and given to the poor. I find, in 1835, ' that the number of poor in all the northern provinces, did not exceed 94 in every 1000 of the whole population. I may also mention that this does not include those in the hospitals. So far as my knowledge extends, pauperism has not increased since the revolution of 1830. The Dutch poor receive very gratefully whatever sxmi is given to them. There is a great difi'erence in the diffei'cnt provinces with regard to the number of the poor. I find the aid given to the poor during 1825, in the several provinces, was as follows :■ — In the province of North Holland, to each poor person in the course of that year, the sum was 13s. 8d. ; in North Brabant, 15s. 8d. ; in Gelderland, 18s. 6d. ; Drcnthc, 11. 4s. Id. ; Utrecht, \l. 38.; Overyssel, U. 6s. 3d.; Friesland, II. 12s. 9d. ; South Holland, 1/. 15s. 2d.; Zealand, 11. 19s. 2d. 2F k 218 MINUTES OF E^^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxiuninations. I>r W. Steven. 18 March 1843. The poorhoiuscs in the different towns are very plain buildings. T^ey are economically and most admirably managed, 3688. Is there one in every considerable town? — At least one. In each of these poor- houses is an officer styled ihc father, a sort of house-governor, and his wife, who gets the name of mother, generally acts as mistress. The deacons and their ladies generally attend once a week. There is scarcely a day but some ladies attend these institutions, superintend- ing the domestic arrangements^ It is all on their part, and on that of the gentlemen, purely a labour of love. I may farther mention, that it is no luiusual thing to find a poor's box conspicuously placed, in churches, where strangers commonly resort. At Haarlem, where is the famous organ, may be seen a box with an mscription, " Kempmber the poor;" and such are put in many different places throughout the c.ountry, I have frequently observed them on the Maeso, at the commencement of winter, when people were going to skate. Large surns of money are raised in that manner, 3089. If paupers are not members of any congregation or ecclesiastical sect, may they not obtain relief from the municipal body of the district where they live ? — As I said before, it is ecclesiastical persons who distribute. In Holland there are so many charitable individuals, that, if a case were occurring, the person AvovJd be immediately relieved. 3(590. You mean a person who is not a member of a religious sect ? — Yes. There are very few such. 3691. But those who are? — ^I believe they would be relieved. 3692. Sup])08ing the funds of any particular religious sect not adequate for their relief, may not application be rnade to the local municipal administration for relief? — I believe so. 3693. Are able-bodied persons entitled to relief in Holland ? — If they will not work, they are sent to the home colonies : in the first instance, however, to some local place, where they are obliged to work. No begging is allowed. 3694. And if an individual beg ? — He is taken into custody by the police — his immediate wants are supplied,- — his case is minutely investigated, and, if found incorrigible, he is sent off to the home colonies. 3695. But able-bodied men out of employment are entitled to relief? — They and their families have temporary relief afforded them. 3696. Would such a person have a claim by law to relief ?^Properly speaking he has no legal claim, but he is always relieved. 3697. With regard to the habits of the Dutch generally, are they an industrious people ? Very industrious indeed. 3698. You said it was all voluntary? — All the relief given to paupers may, in truth, be regarded as voluntary. 3099. I understood you to say, that the poor were supported entirely by voluntary con- tribution ? — I might have said almost entirely ; for in those rare cases, where there is no ecclesiastical charity, the municipal administration gives temporary aid. 3700. With regard to the industry of the people, has the large charitable aid afforded, not, in your opinion, impaired their providence ? — No, I do not think it has. The Dutch deacons do not give very large sums, and it is chiefly given in bread, potatoes, clothing, and fuel. Perhaps 8d. or lOd. may be given as weekly aliment. 3701. Do you know vvhether the amount of individuals relieved has gone on progressively increasing ? — It has not increased, so far as I know. 3702. Have you tables on the subject ? — I have not. 3703. Were you in any other parts of Holland ? — I have been in most of the towns of Holland ; but, except in Kotterdam, not for any length of time, 3704. Is there much inebriety among the lower classes ? — ^1 never saw a Dutchman the worse of liquor. I am sorry to say it was chiefly foreigners whom I saw in that state. 3705. But is there much drinking of spirits among them ? — Not much. Dutchmen seldom or ever take gin, especially after mid-day ; and they take but a very small quantity at a time, 3706. Are the provisions for education A'cry large in Holland ? — They are. 3707. And religious instruction ? — That is conducted by the ministers of different persua-. gions. Bible history forms a prominent part of school cducatipn. Mr A. J. T.ist. ^1" -Alfred J. J-iisty Superintendent of the Edinburgh County Police, Examined : — , 3708. You are superintendent of police in the county of Edinburgh ? — Yes, 3709. How long have you been so ?- — Nearly three years, 3710. Has your official occupation given you the means of knowing much of the lower classes in Edinburgh ? — It has. 3711. Do you find, in general, among those paupers, that the destitution is very great — that among the lower classes there is a great deal of destitution ? — I find a very great deal, 3712. Do such as obtain parish relief seem adequately supported ?— The reUef is inade- quate. Many of them say they are obliged to beg in consequence of the allowance being so small, 3713. Are many apprehended in consequence ?^A great many are challenged ; we don't apprehend any, as doubts exist whether we could legally do so. 3714. They are in town? — From powers imdcr the local act, 3715. Do you find much petty crime among that description of persons ? — Among many of them there is ; and it is in consequence of tlie surrounding counties punishing them, that they, knowing that we don't pimish them here, come and commit many petty depredations, and continual acts of vagrancy. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 219 Mr A. J. List. 18 March 184a. 3716. Do they come to the county or town of Edinburgh ? — To the county — because by Examinations remaining in the city they are subject to be laid hold of by the police and punished. 3717. You don't act within the bounds of the city police ? — Only within the county, 3718. Part of the city bounds are within the county ? — Yes ; but my jurisdiction is only beyond the parliamentary boundary. 3719. Have you any knowledge whether it is a general practice for parties receiving parochial reHef to go into the county begging ? — It is a very great practice to do so on par- ticular lines of road — the Portobello or Corstorphine roads, or those leading towards New- haven and Queensferry. These are the principal roads on which those who are in the habit of getting reHef are most accustomed to go out. I requested the constables to inquii-e and report what parishes these persons belonged to. 3720. You have not got those returns ? — I have not got the returns complete yet. Yes- terday I called the attention of the constables to the subject. They said there was a diffi- culty in getting the parties to confess. I am afraid that I shall have difficulty in getting the returns, unless I get men in private clothes to make the inquiries. I have myself found some of those receiving outdoor relief from the workhouses in Edinburgh begging in the county. 3721. Do they generally go about for a day, or for a week ? — Frequently they go out in the morning and return at night ; but as spring advances, they sometimes go away for four or five days. 3722. Do they go to great distances ? — Yes, they go as fai- as Mid-Calder and Penny- cuick, and sometimes to the confines of the county. 3723. You don't know whether their children are properly cared for ? — They are not. I have often seen them through the lower parts of Edinburgh, and I have found the children in a very bad state, entirely neglected. 3724. Does that course of life arise from destitution, or from the desire of begging ? — I attribute it to the desire to beg, and also to their wasting that which they obtain improperly, by imposing on the charitable. As a proof, Pathhead is a district through which numbers are passing to Newcastle. In consequence of complaints, I directed that people should not relieve them, but should send them to the district officer ; and I gave tickets, under the parochial authorities, to obtain bread at a baker's shop in the village. A great many refused : they did not want bread. 372.5. Have you any knowledge with regard to the large towns near Edinburgh — such as Musselburgh and Dalkeith — whether they are in the same state of destitution as in Edin- burgh ? — They are not so bad in Musselburgh ; they are feeling the pressure, but not to such an extent. 3726. I meant the regular poor ? — They are allowed there to beg on a certain day of the week — either Friday or Saturday. The burgh authorities allow that day for them to go through the place, and many families give a regular small allowance to them. 3727. They don't go beyond the parish ? — No. 2728. Anything of Dalkeith ? — Nothing. Dalkeith has a number that belong to it. There are a number of lodging-houses there which they haunt, but it is difficult to reach them. 3729. Are there regular beggars in these that issue into the county ? — Oh, yes, they have regular haunts. I desired the constables to visit the places every week, and warn the keeper against harbouring such persons. There is an old act against lodging-house keepers harbour- • ing them. If that were put in force, then we might be able to get quit of them. 3730. Have you reason to believe that any of the parochial authorities are aware of paupers in the receipt of relief begging ? — I had a conversation with Mr Small on the sub- ject, and he told me not ; but I am certain that many do, from the passes given to them. They get a pass allowing them so many days to travel home ; these I have found to be used improperly. I have foimd a man whose pass, some days old, bore that he was going to New- castle, but he was not more than seven miles from Edinburgh, and I have spoken to Mr Small on the subject. 3731. Have you reason to believe that the general system of passes promotes vagrancy? — I do. There ought to be a check. Country people are apt to be misled : the men show their passes ; and as it is an official document they are relieved. Monday, 20th March 1843. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., MEMBEIIS PRESENT. Edward Twisleton, Esq., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MEL\1LLE IN THE CHAIR. Rev. Dr Grant, Examined :— ( 3732. You are one of the ministers of South Leith ? — Yes. 3733. How long have you been minister there ? — Between eighteen and nineteen years. 3734. Is there any assessment in the parish for the poor ? — Yes. Rev. Dr Oranf. 20 March 1813. 220 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examiiiafif.iis. 3735. Ilas it bccn long established in Lcith ? — lam not quite sure liowlong; but for a ,, ,. ,, ^ much longer period than my ministry has endured. There was an assessment oecasiouallv, 'JO Marcli 1843. ^^ urst, every two or three, or tour years; at last it came to be annual. 3736. According to what rule is it levied ? — On the rentid of the heritable property in the parish, lands and houses, — one half on the tenants, one half on the landlords. 3737. Is there any exemption in regard to the lower part of rental ? — They exempt the tenants whose rental docs not exceed 5/. 3738. Is any part of the rental of the proprietors exempted ? — No part. 3739. Is it the rack-rent, or is there any deduction? — There is a deduction of a fifth j>art to the heritors, on the ground that they have repairs to make on the property. That deduc- tion is not made from the rental of lands, but houses only. 3740. Is there anytliing paid to able-bodied persons, who cannot find work, out of that assessment ? — We do not consider that the law of Scotland makes it obligatory to maintain able-bodied persons out of emploj-ment. 3741. Do they get any relief, in point of fact ? — We ai'e not in use as a session to give them relief. Thci'e are conunittces of the inhabitants existing at present, who get tho countenance of the kirk-sessions and the pi'csby tery in receiving contributions for the support of those people. 3742. Is any part of the assessment paid to them ? — No, unless they are disabled. 3743. How are the funds at the disposal of the kirk-session applied? — TTiere are certain expenses paid from the kirk-session fiinds ; — as, for instance, the expense of maintaining ♦livine worshij), and the balance is applied to the support of the poor, along with the funds produced by assessment. 3744. What do you include under the head, "Expense of maintaining divine worship?" — Salary of the precentor, — pajonent of the church officers, &c. 3745. Is there any regular division ? — There has not been hitherto. 3746. Do the heritors interfere with the management of the kirk-session ? — There is an annual meeting on occasion of each assessment being laid on, consisting of the heritors of the parish and the members of the kirk-session ; and the ordinary administration of the poor's fmid is left wholly to the latter. But the joint meeting appoint a standing committee, by whom the assessment is recovered, and paid over, as it is recovered, to the treasurer of the kirk-session. 3747. Is the portion of the kirk-session fund applied to the poor kept separate and distinct from the portion of assessment under the management of the kirk-session ? — No ; it makes a common fund. 3748. And the charge of the poor is under the kirk-session? — Yes. There are certain funds under the management of the kirk-session, that are kept distinct. 3749. ^\liat are these? — -Funds, (or instance, in mortmain, under the management of the kirk-session ; also the produce of the burying-ground, the fees arising from which belong to the ku-k-session. There is a separate account kept of this fund ; but we understand that wc are bound to p.ay over any surplus that may remain, after defraying the expenses that belong to the administration of the burying-ground, to the poor. 3750. It appears that a considerable discretion is left to the kirk-session ? — The heritors have been disposed to confide in them hitherto. Attempts were made to adopt the kind of management that is adopted in St Cuthbert's ; but the heritors have hitherto resisted it, and Buccessiully. 3751. Do the dissenters contribute any part of their collections to the support of the poor? — No, they do not ; at least they pay no part over to the kuk-session. 3752. Has there been any communication M'ith them on the subject ? — ^We have never asked them to contribute anything. 3753. Has the assessment been increasing of late years ? — On the whole, I do not think it has increased much. The last assessment was either Is. or Is. Id. in the jiound. I am not aware that there has been any material increase of late. 3754. Have the poor been increasing in number? — There has been a considerable increase on the whole. 3755. How is the increased number provided for ? — There must have been an increase in the assessments, had it not been for the favourable issue of a law-suit in which -we were en- gaged with Edinburgh, in regard to oiu right to an assessment on several lands said to be included within the royalty of the city. We have been found entitled to that assessment, and to the an-ears that had accrued, which has enabled us to dispense with some additional assessments which othenvise would have been required. 3756. Were these lands subject to assessment in the city of Edinburgh also ? — They have been foimd liable for the assessment both in Edinburgh and Leith. 3757. Yoiu' observations apply to South Leith alone, not to North Leith? — To South Leith alone. 3758. Have there been any objections, on the part of dissenters to come to an arrangement with the Establishment in the management of the poor ? — Occasionally they have shown some jealousy in regard to their own poor, and insinuated that they were not provided for with the same willingness and liberality as the poor of the Established church. This idea of unwillingness is quite unfounded ; and I believe they are now themselves satisfied of that. The dissenters give small allowances to their own poor occasionally, but are sometimes, I believe, unwilhng to give them anything until they get an allowance from the parish, under the impression that we wovdd refuse them, or give them less, if they were in receipt of any- thing from their own congregations. 3759. Is there any foimdation for that impression ? — ^Ye are bound, when an appli- cation is made to us, to look to any allowance individuals may have from any quarter; POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 221 but we are anxious, at the same time, to encoui-age dissenting congregations to give their Examinations, allowance. ;- 3760. \Vliat are the aiTangements of the kirk-session for the poor on the roll? Have you SfX'. ^'^!'!^uV^ • 1 • n ITT 1 •! 11 1 r<->rv7 rni !• 1 20 llarcli 184J. any paid inspectors .'' — We have a paid treasurer, who has a salary oi vOl. a year. Ihe kurk- officer is under him, and is bound to give him assistance as inspector. 3761. Does he visit the poor hhnself ? — It is the duty of the elders to take oversight of those on their list; but sometimes, from being busily engaged otherwise, or from being infirm, they require the assistance of this paid inspector. The assistance is given; and I believe the poor are thus regularly visited throughout the year. 3762. The inspector is a paid officer, for the purpose of visiting the poor?— Not for the express purpose ; he has other duties to attend to. He is a sort of messenger for the ministers and treasurer too. He is einj)loyed by the treasurer in making inquiries into the circum- stances of the applicants for the poor's funds. 3763. His duties as inspector do not take up the greater part of his time? — No. 3764. What is he paid?— 25/. a year, I think. His time is not occupied wholly in parish business. He is allowed to employ himself in other matters, — delivering funeral-letters, attending funerals, and so forth; and very likely his emoluments may be between 40/. and 50/. a year. 3765. Is there a regular collector?— There is ; but he acts under the committee of heritors. 3766. How is he paid ? — He is paid a per centage on the amount of the collections. 3767. Have you any workhouse ? — We have not. 3768. In regard to the general allowance to paupers, have you reason to believe that It is adequate to their wants? — I do not think it is. 3769. Taking into account any other sources of income ? — I do not think it is. 3770. Has any proposal been made to raise the allowance ? — On the whole the allowance has become more liberal since I was connected with the parish. I have, in general, had a feeling in favour of increased allowance. At the same time, no regular proposal has been made to increase the allowance ; and we consider ourselves as practically prevented from raising it on account of the practice that obtains in other parishes. If we were to give 2s., in cases where they give Is., the poor in Edinburgh and St Cuthbert's would migrate to Leith. But I speak rather for myself than other members of the session, because the sub- ject has not been a matter of regular formal discussion in the session, it never having been proposed that we shoidd raise the allowance. 3771. What do you consider the effects of a low allowance on the poor themselves ? — ^I think they must be under the necessity of increasing their provision, by begging and other- wise. 3772. From your own knowledge, do the poor in the receipt of parochial relief, beg? — They do. 3773. In Leith, or in the neighbourhood? — I am not aware that they go systematically to Edinburgh or the country. Perhaps ,there is not a great number of professed beggars, but the paupers call on families, and obtain relief to a great extent, without which they could not possibly be maintained. The most common allowance in the parish is Is. in the week. 3774. ^^Tiat may be the allowance for a widow with four children ? — I am not aware that any allowance exceeds 4s. a week. In cases where 3s. and 4s. are given, either there is a number of helpless children under the charge of the -widow, or the individual receiving such allowance, must be in peculiar circumstances, perhaps fatuous, or requiring some one to look after him. 3775. Are the allowances paid weekly ? — Some of them are paid monthly ; others weekly. We have a good many boarders in the house of refiige, at 28. 6d. a week — the board is paid quarterly to the institution. 3776. In the Edinburgh house of refuge? — Yes. I was going to remark, that even in cases where the parties have no more than Is. or Is. 6d. a week, they often make out to the kirk-session that they have no other visible means of subsistence. 3777. Have you no doubt that, in settling the allowance, the managers and elders are not satisfied that they have other means of subsistence ? — That is not the general principle of management. They seem to proceed on the idea that other means will be found in some way or other. 3778. Including begging? — No; there is rather an understanding that those who are on the poor's roll do not beg. 3779. But the practice is the contrary ? — It is very common. 3780. In regard to the children on the roll, is there any provision made for their educa- tion ? — Yes ; Ave have a sessional school, and we require children who are on the parish roll to attend, where they are taught the common branches of education. 3781. They have their schooling for nothing ? — Yes ; the kirk-session pays the fee. There is, besides, a charity school, which many of them attend. 3782. Of the class of persons on the poor's roll, which do you consider the worst off? — Widows with children, or the aged ? — We generally consider the old men as Avorst off. The old women have sometimes something to employ them : they can do many little things ; which old men cannot engage in, their occupations having been formerly altogether of a different kind. We consider them as objects of gi-eat sympathy and commiseration. 3783. In regard to widows and children? — WidoAVS with young children are very desti- tute, because they are unable to work until their children attain a certain age. 3784. Do you ever give relief to single able-bodied Avomen? — Occasionally. Single women . in health are not looked on as objects of charity, unless they are very old. 222 MINUTES OF E"V^DENCE TAK:EN BEFORE THE Examinations. 3785. Under sixty ? — Yes; under sixty, if they be affected by disease. If tliey are able- Kev i)r (I'rant "^o^ied, and able to work, they are not proper objects of parochial relief. I'o .Mtticli 18-43. 3786. Do you give assistance to widows with one child. — There are instances of this. 3787. You do not exclude any ? — No, if they have no means of support. 3788. Have you any reason to believe that paupers come from rural parishes into Leith to acquire a settlement ? — That oeciu-s in many cases. I think there is a great migration of people into the town, Avhen they are unfit for labour in the country ; and one reason is, that they may be more likely to meet with little jobs in the towns, when they are unfit for regular work. Another reason may be, that the support in the towns is greater, in general, than in the country, and that there are many charities in the towns by which they may be assisted. There are, for instance in Leith, medical charities ; a society for the destitute sick ; an asso- ciation for relieving indigent old men and women ; and besides, the town is a better field for begging. 3789. If a person generally able-bodied falls sick, is there any provision made for him from the assessment ? — We shoidd consider him as an object of relief, if laid on a bed of sick- ness for some considerable time ; but the Destitute Sick Society would step in and relieve him. 3790. And would you leave such individuals to the relief of that .'society ? — If his sick- ness was not of long continuance, he would not be taken on the roll ; if of long continuance he wovdd ; and we would leave the additional relief required to the Destitute Sick Society. 3791. Does that society furnish more than medicines? — Yes; they furnish money and provisions, and blankets occasionally. 3792. And those on the permanent roll of the parish receive assistance froni the Destitute Sick Society when in sickness ? — That is quite common. 3793. Have you any statement of the number of individuals in your parish who have / obtained a settlement, who have resided a short time, four or five years, in Leith ? — I could not condescend on the number at present. 3794. Are the paupers on the increase or decrease ? — On the increase as to numbers. 3795. What is that owing to ? — Perhaps a greater number of persons in poverty are induced to ask relief now than formerly. The scruples that many had in Scotland in receiv— ' ing parochial relief have worn off greatly now. 3796. AVhat is the cause of that ? — There is a much greater simi expended in this way than formerly ; there is a regular assessment for the relief of the poor ; and probably they have come to consider a maintenance as a matter of right. The poor were not wont to consider it as a right when they were supported by voluntary contributions made at the church doors. 3797. Which is the better system, voluntary contributions or assessment ? — It is desir- able that their Avants should be supplied voluntai-ily, as regards both receivers and givers ; but this is not practicable in the present state of society, in great towns especially. I think their wants are very inadequately supplied even with the aid of an assessment. 3798. If there were no assessment, would not the collections at the church doors be so ample that their relief would be greater ? — No, I do not think it. In my own parish the assessment produces above 3000/., and I cannot conceive any state of things in which that would be contributed at the doors of the church. 3799. But you think that assessment has in some measure destroyed the spirit of indepen- dence hitherto in the minds of the poor in Scotland? — It may have had that effect. They have certainly become less unwilling to apply. 3800. And the assessment must be raised to that amount considerably from the decay of that feeling ? — From the people coming to feel that they have a right to maintenance, although the provision made for them by law formerly was the same as now. 3801. They had just the same right before as now? — I am not aware that there has been any alteration of the statute law of Scotland in regard to the poor. Doubtful points have been settled by decisions of the cIatI courts ; btit I am not aware that there has been any alteration made in regard to the poor law, and the right of parties to a maintenance. 3802. What is the destitution of the parties on the roll principally owing to ? — Veiy often to improvidence and intemperance ; in many cases to disease and infirmity, and often to premature old age in the case of a hard working man. 3803. Are there many cases within your own knowledge of parties being on the roU with- out fault of their own ? — Very many cases. 3804. Do you think it would be desirable to alter the law of settlement ? — I do not think the law of settlenjent is very Important in regard to its consequences as between one parish and another; but I shovdd like to see the law of settlement assimilated in England and Scotland. It is difficult for oiu* paupers to acquire a settlement in England, and they are sent down here, whereas if poor from England have gone to any part of Scotland, and resided for the usual time, they acquire a settlement. 3805. How many in a year return from England ? — -Not many, — this does not occur very often, although it occurs occasionally. 3806. Do you think the term of three years is too short for acquiring a settlement ? — I 00R LAW INQUIRY CO^DIISSION FOR SCOTLANI). 227 tliat, in most cases, does no more than pay for house rent ; and, consequently, they must, Exauiiiiatious. cither by begging, stcaUng, or some other shift, find food and raiment. _ _We often have . • h- 11 E complaints that the means provided for them Is utterly inadequate. Families of three, four, go MaioU i'84;i^' and five, receive generally but Is. fid. or 28. a week ; and after providing for house rent, there is nothing over for the piu-chase of food and clothing. 3903. Do you not reckon on that deficiency being supphed from private charity ? — Private charity does a great deal ; and I would consider it wrong to interfere with it ; but it is very greatly paralyzed in consequence of there being a public assessment for the poor. Many of the more wealthy put the poor away, saying, " we pay our assessment ;" and they think they have a good right to get rid of them in this way. 3904. How many cases of extreme destitution and misery come under your notice, arising from that defective supply ? — I have seen many hundreds of such cases of destitution. 3905. And were these cases relieved by your society, and other resources ? — Partly by . our society and partly by private charity and begging, but not adequately. 3900. Have you reason to believe that the destitution existed for a considerable time previously to the relief being given ? — Yes, in many cases it existed until they were com- pelled from necessity to make their cases known. Many,— and I speak it to their commen- dation, — do not make their cases known until absolute necessity compels them. We have found that they have been without food almost entirely for days, and without knowing where they were to find it before making application for chanty. 3907. But when their destitution was made kno^Ti, they would be- immediately relieved, of course ? — Yes, immediately relieved. 3908. In regai-d to such cases as you have adverted to, if it were possible to supply the lx)or by collections, and by j)rivate charity, would noii'.Miu(hV343 ^'^^'g'> who is in the next room, has his books along with him, and he will give you more accurate information than I can do in regard to them. We had one in our parish three years ago, which was of great advantage to the poor. 3y.");>. Are you in the habit of visiting the dwellings of the poor? — I am, in my own dis- trict of the parish (Mr Guthrie's), which is not one of the most destitute districts in Edin- burgh. 3U()0. Do you visit those who are in the receipt of parochial relief? — All who reside in my district. 3961. Probably some of those you visit are in receipt of parochial relief? — Yes. Certain families whom I have been called on occasionally to visit, receive relief. 3902. Do you consider the allowance adequate ? — It is very inadequate in most instances. 3963. Have you found that the new system in your parish, of dividing it into districts, and appointing elders and deacons to each district, has answered well ? — Very much so, indeed. Many of the people attend church now who never attended it before. 3904.' AVithout reference to their attending church, have you observed a perceptible dif- ference in the moral condition of the people ? — Yes. 3905. Do the deacons take care to impress on the parents the propriety of sending their children to school ? — Yes ; both deacons and elders. 3900. You said that you think the provision of the poor inadequate, — would you think it safe to increase the provision to outdoor paupers, and to pay them in the same manner as at present ? — I think in most cases it might. 3907. Do you think that some farther investigation into the cases might be requisite ? — That would be a great advantage, for they are not properly investigated by the charity workhouse. I have seen instances of a widow, with three or four children, the youngest a very few weeks old, whose allowance did not exceed 20d. a week. A woman in this situation, with a child on the breast, could not go out to wash, or to work at outdoor em- ployment. 3908. Is that sum not supplemented by private charity ? — I know cases in which private charity is given, but cannot be depended upon. 3909. How do persons in such a situation live 1 — In many instances they are obliged to beg. 3970. Is that common ? — In many cases. Some come to my house for charity ; and from our own private fund in the parish, we occasionally give a little to those receiving aid from the charity workhouse. 3971. Supposing the system now practised in St John's had been long in operation in the town, do you think there would have been the same destitution as now exists ? — I do not think there would. 3972. Do you think this is the commencement of a retracing process that will bring back better things? — Yes. 3973. Would it be better to go on in the same direction without looking at increased allowances ? — It would be better that congregations had more in their power than they have. 3974. Would you think it better that kirk-sessions should have the management of the poor ? — Decidedly. 3975. Do you apprehend no difficulty in finding persons to discharge this duty ? — No ; I think there would be no difficulty in finding persons. In the parish with which I am con- nected, we have twenty elders and six deacons. 397 (). For how long have you had them ? — For three years. 3977. Do you observe no appearance of their falling off in zeal ? — No. 3978. Supposing the administration of the management of the poor left with kirk-sessions, would it be possible to dispense with compulsory assessment ? — I think so. As far as the parish of St John's is concerned, we are quite agreeable to relieve the charity workhouse of our poor, if they allow us the church door collections. 3979. As a general system in Edinburgh, you think it would answer? — I think so cer- tainly — and the poor would be more liberally dealt with than they are at present. 3980. Do you think the money contributed would be greater ?. — Yes. 3981. More than is raised by assessment at present? — Yes. 3982. Is that the experience of Scotland ? — I cannot say. 3983. Supposing that in the whole of Scotland, it was proved that the assessments now raised are greater in amount than the collections at the church doors in other parishes where there is no assessment, would that alter your opinion in regard to dispensing with assessments in Edinburgh ? — No, I do not think it would. 3984. Why do you think the effect would be different in Edinburgh ? — I merely speak from my own experience of what I have seen. It might be better over the whole country if parishes were conducted in the same way as St John's. We have not had much expe- rience yet ; but still, from the experience we have had, the working of the system has been very satisfactory. John Cviig, Esq. John Craig, Esq., Examined : — 3985. You are a merchant in Edinburgh ? — Yes. ' 3980. Have you resided in Edinburgh long ? — More than fifty years. 3987. Have you paid considerable attention to the poor in Edinburgh ? — I am not con- I POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 231 nected with any society taking charge of the poor, nor do I belong to any kirk-session, but Examinations. my brother and I have taken considerable interest in the soup-kitchens. 7^~" y '6[)S>^. It has been common in Edinburgh to have soup-kitchens established during winter .]y jijiJi^if i j^l*,'' and other seasons of the year ? — More than tliirty years ago, my brother was engaged in soup-kitchens ; but the one in which we have been more actively engaged, was that in 1838 and 1839. I have here a statement of the sum expended, and how it was expended, during these two years. We collected the sum of 2077^- 19s. O.id. I may state the way in which it was collected. From collections at the church doors, we had 449/. 19s. 24M. We collected by subscriptions of 10/. and upwards, 535/. 7s. ; of 5/. and under 10/., 16G/. 6s. ; of 11. and under 5/., 545/. 16s. 5d. ; of under 11., 275/. 9s. S.jd. ; from workmen, 105/. lis. ; total sum collected, 2077/ 19s. Old. 3989. During what period was that subscribed ? — It was altogether collected in 1838 and 1839. We kept the kitchen open to a large extent in 1838, and for a considerable time in 1839. We commenced the large kitchen in 1838, and continued till summer set in : and next winter we opened it again. 3990. How many persons were relieved in the winter of 1838 and 1839 ? — Upwards of 3000 families, and from 12,000 to 15,000 individuals daily. 3991. What arrangements were made for deciding who were to be the objects to get this relief ? — We got reports from people who resided in the immediate neighbourhood of the poor. We made no distinction of persons, if we considered them destitute, — whenever they came forward we gave them soup and bread. 3992. You depended on the reports of the neighbours ? — Yes, respectable neighbours. We would not take the reports, however, of spirit merchants, — we considered it improper to receive their certificates. 3993. Were the respectable shopkeepers cautious in giving certificates ? — We sent a de- putation to inquire into the circumstances of the applicant, if we had the least suspicion. 3994. Was the house of every person visited before being admitted upon the list ? — A considerable proportion were visited, others were admitted only by the reports. If we found out that any of them were in employment, we cut them off; if they were not in employ- ment, we supplied them freely. 3995. If any of the shopkeepers were, from kindly feelings, easy in giving certificates of destitution, you had no organized system of checking it ? — We tried as much as possible to find out the deserving ; and we made it a point to know the character of the parties giving the certificates. 399G. And you knew they would not give a certificate without strict inquiry ? — Yes. I may observe the Catholic priests sometimes attended. They subscribed liberally towards the kitchen. One of the priests came one day and inquired if we were giving soup, and said, " I see you make no distinction between catholic and protestant, we will send you our mite." 3997. What was the precise class of the objects of relief? — It is almost impossible to say. One class was labourers, — it was absolutely necessary to supply them ; a large pro- portion were outdoor labourers, and their work was at a stand. 3998. They were principally able-bodied persons? — Generally. 3999. Can you furnish the Commission with an analysis of the class of persons to whom you gave relief? — I dare say I might ; but it would require considerable labour to make it up. We furnished a great deal of clothing. We sent to all the houses in Edinburgh, and got cast clothes. 4000. Did you require able-bodied persons to work in return for the relief they obtained .'' — We had no description of work to give them, except in so far as we employed tailors and shoemakers. 4001. You said that 3000 families were supplied daily ? — Yes, upwards of 3000 daily. 4002. Were tailors and shoemakers one-tenth part of the number ? — I cannot say. 4003. Perhaps you can give us an analysis for a short period of the class of persons .'' — I shall try to send it to you. 4004. How many individuals performed work in return for relief? — I cannot tell ; but the sum we paid for wages of 130/. 15s. 6Ad., that was to shoemakers and tailors, and women making and repairing clothes ; — that was during the whole winter. 4005. With the exception of wages paid to those in the employment of the soup- kitchen and clothing department, the whole sum of 2077/. was given chiefly to able-bodied persons without requiring work in return ? — Yes. The particulars of the whole are under the " state of the funds," which I will leave with you. — [See subjoined to evidence.] 400G. Under the head of wages, 79/. 8s. lOd., was the whole of that given to the poor as wages, or was part of it given for management? — Nothing was given for management, — it was entirely given to those employed at the soup-kitchen. 4007. Were these shoemakers poor themselves ? — Yes ; they would not come to us and work for a mere trifle if they could have got other employment. 4008. Had you any soup-kitchen in 1837, 1840?— None in 1840. 4009. Have you had any since that ? — No. 4010. Had you any one previously to that ? — There was a very extensive one previously to this, — we only took a partial charge of it. Mr Small and the late Dr M'Knight took an active part in it. 4011. What year was that .''—I think it was 1836. 4012. Did you give I'elief to parties who were in the receipt of parochial relief ? — We could not ascertain whether they were or not. I understood that when we gave them soup, those who took charge of the parish funds inquired if they got soup from the soup-kitchen ; and they diminished the sum allowed them when they understood that they did. 1^ 232 MINUTES OF E\^DEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniiiiations. 4013. Had you any schedule given to them to be filled up to know if they got parochial ' relief? — No, we made no inquiries as to this. 'l'''"u^'^''i^' ^***' 4014. In consequence of the relief given from the soup-kitchen, you merely hoard that "" ' ■ the managers of the charity workhouse diminished the allowance to the paupers .'' — Yes. 4015. Had you any communication with the managers of the charity workhouse on the subject? — No. They called occasionally, — individual members of them, and saw what was going on ; but we had no regular communication with them. 401 G. Have you had anything to do with the administration of the fund for relief dur- ing the last year? — No. 4017. Do you know anything of those in receipt of relief from the funds of the unem- ployed ? — I have no personal knowledge in regard to them. 4018. Did you know personally many of those to whom you gave relief in the soup- kitchen in 1838 ? — We knew them all personally at the time ; but we did not come into close communication with them so as to know particularly every individual. 4019. Do you see some of them occasionally now ? — Yes. 4020. Are they in employment now ? — I do not know that. 4021. Have you a list of the names of those who were on the soup-kitchen at the time.'' — I believe I have the books with the names. I may mention that there was another soup- kitchen (which I forgot) within the last year, — we took charge of it in the winter of 1841-42. 4022. Can you give us any account of that soup-kitchen ? — I can give you the books. It was particularly under the charge of a clerk of ours, and he has the books. 4023. Perhaps you will let him come with the books, — we want merely to know the sum of money that was expended, and how it was expended ? — Yes. 4024. Was the soup-kitchen in 1841-42 managed on the same principle as the previous one ? — Yes. 4025. Did the same class of persons receive relief? — Yes. 4026. And was the same precaution taken to prevent imposition ? — Yes. 4027. And was the same proportion of relief given without requiring work in return .' — Yes. 4028. Be good enough to send to us the sum of money expended, and the number of persons who received relief in 1841-42, in the soup-kitchen ? — I shall do so. STATE OF FUNDS Collected for providing Soup, Bread, and Clothing for the Poor, at the Old Green Market and Old Stamp Office Close, and how Expended, during the Winters of 1838 and 1839. Collections from the City Churches and Promenade, per John Turnbull, Esq., City Chamberlain, ... ... ... £171 12 1 Collections from various Dissenting Congregations, ... 217 15 If Collections from public Lectures and Oratorio, ... 60 12 Subscriptions of 101. and above, ... Do. of 5/. and under 10/., Do. of 1/. and under 5/., Do. under 11., ... Do, from Workmen, Total sum collected, 2077 19 0} Expended on account of the Souivkitchen,- Wages, Utensils, Coals and Porterage, ... Beef, Barley, Groceries, &c.. Vegetables, ... ... ,., .i3F6UU« ••• ••• «•• ••• Expended for Clothing, — Wages, Cottons, Prints, and articles of Clothing, ... Leather for shoes, Cai-penter Work, Coals distributed. Advertising, Printing and Stationery, ... ... Sundries, • 56 8 H 2051 17 (5 Leaving a balance of ... ... .. ... £26 1 6^ which, by order of the Committee, has been paid over to Mr Whitehead, to provide potatoes at a cheap rate for the poor. 449 19 2f £535 7 166 6 545 16 5 275 9 H 105 11 1627 19 94 79 8 10 75 1 H 35 2 7 421 18 1 255 6 14 25 10 •H 892 7 m 469 16 14 130 15 64 348 13 n 25 15 16 1 H "121 *> 54 5 111 19 9 13 6 32 1 114 14 13 2 56 8 74 POOR LAW INQUIRY COMIVHSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 233 Wednesday, 22d March 1843. MEMBE15S PRESENT, Examinations. 22 March 1843. Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Dninimond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Tvvisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick MTarlan, and Rev. James Robertsoin LORD BELHAVEN IN THE CHAIR. Mr Jliomas Scotland, Session-Clerk of Nortli Leitli Parish, Examined : — ■ 4029. You are session-clerk of North Leith ? — Yes. 4030. How long have you been so ? — Seventeen years next May. 4031. Is there an assessment in the parish of Leith ? — Yes. 4032. Has there been so for a long time ? — Since 1817, the year in which the present church was opened. 4033. Is the management of the poor entrusted entirely to the kirk-session ? — Entirely to the kirk-session. 4034. There is no parish officer ? — We have the kirk-treasurer. 403.5. Is it his duty to inspect ? — The cases are laid before the kirk-session. A party gets a schedule with printed queries to answer, — that is laid before the kirk-session. They consider the cases, which are sometimes remitted to a committee to investigate farther. 4030. Has the treasurer anything to do with the inspection of cases ? — Yes. 4037. What are his duties under that head? — .The kirk-treasurer is a member of the session also, and he is desired to investigate the cases that come before them, when the kirk-session have any doubt about the queries. But the kirk-session alone fix the allow- ances. 4038. Though they sometimes depute him to inspect cases? — Yes. 4039. Are you in the habit yourself of visiting the poor ? — No. 4040. Without reference to your official duties, but otherwise ? — No.. 4041. What are your duties ? — My duties are, to keep the minutes, to give out certifi- cates of the proclamation of banns, to keep the record of births and baptisms ; and I am also recorder of the burying -ground, and parish schoolmaster. 4042. As schoolmaster, are you able to state, what is the condition of education, among the poor in your parish ? — There are a great many in the schools now ; and I believe the poor are well educated in the parish. 4043. Do you think there are any children not educated at any school ? — I believe there may be some, but I cannot tell the number. There are some who don't send their children to school. 4044. Are there the means of education for all? — Yes. 4045. How many children have you at your own school ? — I average about ninety, and in winter, I have a great many more. I teach navigation, and have perhaps fifty or sixtv young men during the winter season. 404t). You charge school fees ? — Yes. 4047. Are there any free schools ? — There are no free schools, but the fees are very small. At the seamen's academy, they charge only a penny a week. 4048. Have the session the power of recommending the children of paupers to be taught gratis ? — No. 4049. Do the session take charge of the children of paupers, and see that they are sent to school ? — They do. They are all sent to school. 4050. How is that done ? — It is left to the kirk-treasurer almost entirely. He pays the fees from the session funds. 4051. And in the event of any poor person applying to him to have the fees for children paid from the session funds, would the petition of such person be granted? — That would have to belaid before the kirk-session. 4052. And it would be according to their determination ? — According to their deter- mination ; but I never knew the kirk-session refuse that, when the application was made on sufficient grounds. 4053. In point of fact, that sort of application would be complied with ? — Yes. 4054. Do the heritors take no part in the management? — No. t4055. Have they ever interfered ? — Not while I have been connected with the parish. 4056. Not when an assessment was laid on the parish ? — The assessment was laid on t)efore I came into office. i^_ 4057. Have you anv statement to make to the Commission ' — No. ■ ' 2H Mr T. Scotland, 234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaininatiuus. Mr W. (ii"espi«. Mr William Gillegpie, Treasurer of the Kirk-Session of North Leith Parish, Examined :— 22 March lo-J.s. ' 4058. You are treasurer of the parish of North Leith ? — Yes. 4059. Would you explain the precise nature of your duties ? — I fill up the petitions of the poor, and pay them as treasurer. Of course I take charge of the whole funds of the parish, whether they belong to the poor, or to the heritors. 40G0. Is it likewise your duty to inspect cases ? — Whenever appointed by the kirk-ses- sion. I inspect in all the cases vvhere a claim is made on the ground of residence. I am able to say to the kirk-session whether these people are entitled by a residence to relief, if they require it. 4001. How often are the paupers paid? — Many weekly, and others monthly. 4062. How is the assessment levied? — Equally upon the full rental. All tenants occupy- ing houses of 51. and upwards, pay. Of course, persons who have places of business, though the rent be only 3/. or 41., pay also. These are the tenants, and the landlords pay upon the whole amount of the rental. 40H3. Is there any deduction ? — No deduction. 40(54. Are any excused above 51. ? — None, unless they apply to the heritors for relief. The duty of the surveyor is to take down every name. I am surveyor also. I take down the name of every person in the parish, if the entry be 11. only. 4065. Could you state the number above 51. excused last year .' — I could not .state the ' number. There were a good many widows excused. They pay 10/. rent. They depend upon a good house for letting lodgings. Sometimes they have a bad year, and they univer- .sally get excused when that is the case. 4066. What are the usual rates of allowance to old people totally imable to work, and without other means ? — We give some of them as high as 6s. a week when they are not able to do anything, and are obliged to have a lodging with a person who has to take care of them. 4067. Bed-ridden ? — Not bed-ridden either. 4068. What is the average allowance to old persons weekly ? — 2s. 6d. I have known the session order me to give 7s. a week to a woman who was bed-rid. 4061). To widows with children ? — Sometimes 2s. 6d. a week ; and I have seen 4s. given. If a widow were nursing, that would be ordered as temporary aid, and perhaps reduced to 2s. 6d. 4070. Is it easy in North Leith for widows to obtain employment.'' — No, I don't think it easy — they are so numerous. 4071. Is it easy for the children to obtain employment.-' — No. 4072. You are in the habit of visiting the houses of the poor ? — I am in every house once every year, taking the survey. 4078. Do you think the allowances adequate.'' — ^They are, perhaps, bare enough some- timei. When they consider that the allowance is too little, they must make application, and it is increased universally, if they make out their case. 4074. Are your rates more or less th;m those of others ? — Oh, some give almost nothing. There was a poor woman, who came from the north with her husband and family ; the husband died immediately on her coming here. She had five children. It was our duty to give relief till her parish should be found out. I was ordered to give Is. 6d. a week by the kirk-session. I communicated with the parish from which she had last come. By a return of post I had an answer, and I was ordered to reduce the allowance to 6d. 4075. What was the j)arish ^ — Lerwick in Zetland. 4076. Have you any other instance of the same kind ? — No ; that is the most glaring. 4077. What did you do ? — I was obliged to reduce it. The vioman never made a com- plaint. She left our parish. I continued it some time after, and I wrote to the authorities at Lerwick that I would continue it till the month of December, when they would be able to tell Mr Weir of South Leith their intentions ; but they have never yet returned an answer. I paid her to the extent of 3^. 12s. 4078. Could you not have ordered her to be transported to Lerwick again ? — Certainly, but she did not wish to go. She said she was sure she would get nothing there. 4079. Without reference to distant parishes, are your allowances greater or less than those in the neighbouring parishes ? — I cannot say what the allowances in the neigh- bouring parishes arc. 4080. Do you find the paupers flock into your parish from the neighbouring parishes ? — No ; most of them come from the country Groat numbers pass through the parish, both north and south, going and returning again. 4081. You have no reason to believe that persons come to the parish with the view of getting a settlement as permanent paupers? — I have no doubt such is the case in many parishes, for they very often apply immediately upon the three years being out. 4082. You would prevent them, by giving relief, from becoming permanent paupers? — Supposing they were only a week, they would receive parish relief, and if afterwards applying, we would refer to it. 4083. Supposing the object were to obtain permanent aid, they would not apply till they had been three years in the parish ? — Not till they had been tliree years in the parish. 4084. Are there any able-bodied men out of employment in North Leith ? — A good many out of employment, are employed by the magistrates in breaking stones. 4085. The magistrates of North Leith I — The magistrates of South Leith. !^ POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 235 4086. Do you know how many are employed in this way ? — The last statement I heard Examinations. was 80. There was a collection last Sabbath for the unemployed, and there is a soup- kitchen. There are 2000 receiving soup. The number of families not paying poor rates is ^Z^' ^^^'u'rl* very great, both in North and South Leith. 4087. How long have these relief funds been established ? — For the whole winter. 4088. Who are the managers ? — The magistrates. 4089. Have you ever had anything of the same kind in previous years ? — Yes ; when there was great want of labour. 4090. Can you mention any particular years ? — Last year. 4091. The year before? — I cannot say. 4092. Is there much distress among able-bodied single women in Leith.'' — There is a good deal, owing to want of work. 4093. Are they aided from this fund? — They get soup. 4094. Are they required to perform work in return 2 — No. 4095. Does the kirk-session of your parish give relief to able-bodied women with one child only ?— No. 4096. An able-bodied woman with one child would receive relief from the soup-kitchen ? —Yes. 4097. Do persons on the poor's roll get relief from the soup-kitchen 1 — Yes. There are clothing societies also, which are kept up by private subscriptions. With the money they get they buy clothing, and all those who are deserving get clothes. There is one soup-kitchen in South Leith, and there is another in North Leith also. 4098. Is there any destitute sick society in North Leith parish, distinct from the other parish ? — No. 4099. Is there any inquiry made into the character or situation of the persons who receive aid from the soup-kitchen ? — Always. They must get a certificate of poverty, and correctness. 4100. Do the clothing societies give relief to parties on the poor's roll ? — In some cases they do, on producing a certificate that they are deserving. 4101. In all cases they must have a certificate that they are deserving? — Yes. They would go and sell what they got, if you gave it them without ascertaining their character. There are many I cannot give money to at all. They would drink it before they got home — their whole monthly allowance. 4102. You have an assessment, and the collections at the church doors. Do the assess- ment and collections form one fund, or are they separate ? — They form one fund, 4103. Would all be applied to the same purpose? — All would be applied to the same purpose. 4104. Is there no portion of the collection applied to pay the church officers? — It must be taken out of the general fund. 4105. The burial fees go into the same fund? — All the same fund. The parochial expenses are not very great. There are payments to the schoolmaster, the beadle, the «hurch officer, and for ringing of bells. 4106. Have you any moi'tifications ? — Rents and feus. • 4107. Belonging to the poor.' — All belonging to the poor. 4108. How left ? — The kirk-session originally had the management of the whole funds of the parish ; and the money was given, one part of it for the support of the kirk, and the other for the poor ; and as there was an accumulation of the funds, they bought lands with the money for the support of the poor. 4109. The rents now go to the support of the poor? — They pay the parochial school- master. 4110. What salary does he get ? — Twenty guineas ; and 51. as session -clerk, 4111. Is he paid nothing by the corporation of Leith ? — Nothing. 4112. Do you know how the salary is fixed? — I don't know. It has always been the same since I knew. 4113. Does he teach any gratis? — No. The kirk-session pay for the poor. He receives the fees without deduction. 4114. Do you think it would be possible to relieve the poor of North Leith solely from the collections at the church doors ? — No. 4115. If the assessment were abolished, would not the collections be increased? — It is very likely they might ; but the collection at the church doors, since I had anything to do with it, never amounted to more than 130/. a year, and it is now under 50/. The collec-' tion every Sabbath is 1.5s. or 16s. a week. 4116. But if the assessment were abolished entirely, and free scope given to private charity, would not the collection amount to as much, or more, than the assessment ? — I don't think so — the assessment amounts to 1000/. 4117. How long have you been in your situation ? — Two years. 4118. Is a great deal done by private charity in North Leith? — A good deal. At two seasons of the year — at the sacrament time — the session make a collection for the poor who are in connexion with the church — deserving poor who are not on the roll. 4119. Will you state the class who receive occasional relief — do able-bodied men in cases of sickness? — Sometimes they do, but it is rare. Sometimes they send them to the Desti- tute Sick Society, sometimes relieve them till they get better. We have able-bodied men, perhaps, with sore legs, and keep them on till they get better. 4120. Do you ever give relief to able-bodied persons for casual failure of work ? — Never. 4121. Have you reason to believe that many of the poor on the permanent roll beg? — I 236 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE £xaiiiinatiuns. Mr W. Gillespie. 22 March 1843. have seen them sometimes — one woman in particular, who came from Engh\nd, after being forty years there. I see .she goes about begging. When she applied in England for relief, they turned her down to Scotland ; and North Leith happened to be the place of her birth. 4122. And she was the only woman ? — The only woman I have observed begging. 4128. Have you many cases returned from lingland ? — Not very many. 4124. Was the ca.se referred to by you a woman with children ? — No, she was the wife of a soldier. Her statement was that he died in England at the time of the cholera. She remained in England as long as she was able, and finally was sent to North Leith. 412.5. What allowance has she ? — 5s. a month. 412(i. How is the collector of the assessment paid ? — By a per centage, 4127. What is the amount of per centage ? — 5/. per cent. 4128. Have you any difficulty about giving relief to dissenters — what are the arrange- ments about dissenters ? — We make no difference. 4129. Have you many dissenting congregations in North Leith ? — Only one. 4130. Do they pay their collections into the general fund ? — No; they give no collec- tions. 4181. Do they relieve their own poor ? — No ; all the poor come on the funds of the parish. 4132. Are there any collection at the church doors? — Yes. They have collections for their own purposes. 4133. But not for the poor ? — Not for the poor. They have collections, I believe, in the winter time, for coals for the poor ; and, if a person belong to their church, it very often happens that he is also on our roll, and gets coals from the parish too. They have always collections in the beginning of the year for coals to the poor. We must give to those on the roll in the first instance and all who apply and deserve, get the remainder. 4134. You stated that you had a certain property, now belonging to the kirk-session, which arose from the accumulation of the poor funds, at a former period — could you state what period that was ? — From 1600 to 16b0. 4135. Was there any assessment for the poor at that time 1 — No, there was no assessment till the year 1813 — I think that was the first year. 413(). Have you any knowledge what the collections amounted to, at the time when they were enabled to accumulate upon them — they must have exceeded the expenditure ? — Oh, no doubt of that. The people accumulated funds to build the church, and the funds col- lected for the poor were divided among the poor at the time. In those days there were, perhaps, not 700 people in the parish altogether. There were two distinct plates— rone for the church and one for the poor, 4137. And the collections for the poor exceeded the expenditure ? — Yes, at that time. You mentioned that the kirk-session pay the fees of the children of paupers — do they take care to see the children regularly sent to school.'' — Yes, the members of session. 4138. And you liave reason to believe that all the children are sent to school .'' — Yes, I believe so. I am almost certain they are. When any don't go to school, the schoolmaster is ordered to see that they go. 4139. Whether the parents are alive or not ? — Whether alive or not. 4140. When they pay the fees, do they require a j-eport from the schoolmaster as to the regularity of the children, or the progress they are making ? — It is the duty of the elders to see that they are made to attend. 4141. Is there any formal report laid before the kirk-session ? — -No. 4142. And are you aware that the elders generally attend to this duty .'' — Generally they do. The schoolmasters account of fees is certified by them. 4143. But you have no information laid regularly before the kirk-session as to the pupils, farther than by the certification of the account ? — None. 4144. Have you any documents, with reference to the mortifications, or any titles ? — Oh, I dare say ; but some of them are so very old that I can't read them. Mr Alex. Allan. Afr Alexander A llan. Examined i 4145 What is your profession ? — A cabinetmaker. 4146. How long have you been so ? — I served an apprenticeship of six years, and wrought eight years after as a journeyman. I am employed now by Mr Taylor, and have charge of his establishment. 4147. Are you well acquainted with the habits of the working classes in Edinburgh .-* — I may say I am well acquainted. I have had considerable experience in Glasgow and Edinburgh. I was for a while working in Glasgow. I was secretary to what was then called the cabinetmakers' union, for about eighteen months. I had considerable experience there, and also throughout the country, from the correspondence connected with the union. Since I came to Edinburgh, I have been for five years secretary of the artizans' reading- room. That institution is unconnected with any particular body of workmen. From my experience there, and from what I have seen while working in Edinburgh, I may say that I have .some knowledge of the working classes in Edinburgh. 4148. Have you reason to believe that the working classes in Edinburgh desire any change^ on the poor laws ? — Well, I do not think there is any great wish upon the subject with any particular body of them, as I don't think their attention has been much directed to the POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 23? subject, or much occupied with it. For a considerable period their attention has been Examinatious. rather more drawn to other poHtical subjects, and to subjects connected with trade — such as trades' unions. I think their speculative opinions on the poor laws are decidedly in favour 22'^\^^rch "^mT of giving them a permanent hold on the government for support. When reduced to distress and poverty, they think they are entitled to it, and claim it as a right ; they don't conceive that they are getting any obligation. 4149. They claim it as a right that the government should interfere for their support ?-» Yes. 4150. In what way ? — By making provision for those who are out of employment. . 4151. By using the expression that government should interfere, do you mean that the ministry should interfere with money from the public purse ? — Of course, that the ministry should, as the executive, interfere, through the legislature, to provide the necessary ftmds. 4152. Apd should advance public money for the purpose ? — Of course. 4153. By a supply of public money where parties are out of employment ? — Yes. 4154. Do you think this would be necessary, or that the object would be gained by laying an assessment on Edinburgh for their relief? — Edinburgh is a very peculiar locality, but I think they would prefer permanent funds to any temporary jjrovision for periods of extraor- dinary distress, such as a regular systematic poor law. 4155. They would prefer a permanent assessmed in Edinburgh, and throughovit Scot- land ? — They would pi*efer a permanent assessment in Edinburgh, and tliroughout Scot- land. 4156. In short, they have not so much considered the mode of raising the money, as the money itself? — I don't think they have given much attention to the mode of raising the money, Their idea is, that it is what they are entitled to ; and what Scotland absolutely requires, considering the meagre provision the present laws provide. 4157. Are subscriptions to friendly societies common among the working classes? — Very common. 4158. Of what kind principally are these societies? — I regret that the societies which I conceive to be of most advantage to the working classes, are not more encouraged — that is, permanent friendly societies. But there are a great many yearly societies, where so much is paid in for the sick and funeral money. These are also saving societies ; and for this purpose parties lodge Is. or 2s., or more, a week, and get out the money at the end of the half-year or year. I think these societies lead to the greatest mischief. They are capable of being so much abused, that I believe they do much more harm than good. I have had more experience of them in the place where I am at present, than I had before. The worst of the yearly societies is, that they lead those who enter to anticipate their income. They enter, not to provide against sickness or death, but to anticipate their money, it is to be paid up at the rate of 6d, or Is. a week, that they may get the sum to which the weekly payments will amount to at the year's end in advance. Nine-tenths of them enter to get the money ; and the system often le.ads to the worst consequences. I know, when the six months or twelve months have elapsed, employers are obliged to advance them considerable sums, that they may be able to secure their dividend. In order to secure which, they must make up the money they have not regularly paid and the interest of the money previously got out, thus anticipating their income, and producing much evil. A number derive considerable advantage, if unwell ; but five-sixths — I may say nine-tenths — enter merely to secure the money in advance. That is the way I tliink them so deleterious to the working classes ; and these are the societies principally encouraged in Edinburgh. 4159. Are there many societies in which men can get aliment in case of sickness ? — A great many. 4160. But they are not so much encouraged as the other class? — Not so much. One reason for that seems to be, that a great many members, when the society had existed for some time, became old, and the last members got no benefit. The payments given in were too little for the payments paid out ; and, in consequence, the younger members who came in at the conclusion of the society usually got nothing. But there is still a number of these societies — the School of Arts, the Composittn-s' or Printers' Society, the Edinburgh Caledonian Youths' Society, and others of a more permanent description, which have been rejnodelled on the principles recommended by the llighland Society's report. 4161. Are there any societies in which provision is made for old age? — In the School of Arts, and some others, there is such a provision — there is a scheme of insurspice. 4162. Have you any societies in which provision is made for widows ? — There is also in the School of Arts, and in many corporations, provision made for widows ; and it used to be quite common in permanent societies to have provision made for the burial of widows, but not to give them permanent aid after their husband's death. I don't think there is anything of the kind in the School of Arts now. The Edinburgh Caledonian Youths', indeed, make a provision for burying the wife of a member who takes two shares ; one he can lift when his j wife dies. But it is held to be connected with the mal^ members alone. i^_ 4163. Have you many assured for widows ? — None. In the Provident Institution I know I^B good many who have provided for widows, by insunyiee. But they are of the better class i^<)f workmen — men who have advanced farther than the usual class of journeymen, and are in the receipt of higher wages. But the w(«-king classes, from usually spending their whole income, are reaUy not able to take advantage of such institutions, unless by making a greater sacrifice than they seem disposed to do. Men in good constant employment, by making tnsiderable sacrifices, and abridging their present comforts, are able to make insurances such offices ; but a very small proportion of them are capable of the sclf-tlenial, I 238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr Alex. Allan. 22 Mikrcb 1U4:< 4164. Which are generally preferred witliin your experience — friendly societies, or sav- ings-banks ? — Friendly societies ; and more especially yearly societies, wliich arc productive of the evils to which I have formerly referred. 41 ()5. Is it your oj)inion that it would be desirable to make provision for the relief of able-bodied persons ? — It is so important a subject that I am almost afraid to offer an opinion on it ; but I think it woidd not be desirable to make such a provision without very great restrictions indeed. 1 think the experience of the poor laws in England has shown that without some very severe check it leads to the worst evils, and pauperises an immense number of the popiJation : that is, by giving outdoor relief. Still there is a difficulty in not giving outdoor relief ; many who most require it woidd otherwise lose the advantage. If it were possible to enact a system by which outdoor relief might be given, leaving a discretionary power to commissioners who might judge matm-ely of the cases, it would be a great advan- tage. But it is a subject in which there is so nmch liability to abuse, that I shoidd not like to give a decided ojiiniou upon it. 4166. Have the working classes considered the question as to the w-orthless or improvident being maintained by the more careful ? — I have no doubt they have ; they consider, however wrong any individual may be in not being provident, that their poverty entitles them to claim the aid of those who have it to give ; and as it is impossible to discriminate on the causes which have led to the poverty of any individual, to prevent greater evil they think it would be better to provide for poverty in order to prevent crime, than attempt to punish it by withholding relief. 4167. You have been provident, and in the habit of saving — do you know others who have been so ? — I cannot say I am entitled to that character at all. I know many, however, who are entitled to that character among the working classes. But with a working man in this coun- try — a working man with a family — there are a great many calls upon him, not only on accoxmt of his own family, but on account of his relations. These drain his resources, and pre- vent him from doing what he might otherwise be disposed to do. In my own case I have had a considerable deal to do, not only with a widowed mother, but with other relations and other calls of that nature. Where there is no provision of a public nature, it drains the resources of a private individual. But there are a great many workmen in Edinburgh who are entitled to the character of being provident, who do much to relieve the distress of their own " order." 41 68. Suppose a case of such a person who has risen a little in life, and become a rate-payer, do you think it fair that he should be taxed for the benefit of those who were not so provident ? — Yes, I think it quite fair — just in the way I explained before. It is better to pay a little in that way to prevent poverty producing crime than to leave scope for the fidl development of the evil. And if he has not to pay in that way, he has generally to do so in the shape of alms, in an eleemosynary way, which is a greater tax ; for not only those who ai-e benevo- lent, but those who are not are called on to assist when a regular assessment is levied. As it is, it is the benevolent classes who suffer, while the niggardly escape contributing. 4169. Do you think the effect of a provision would be to check the assistance afforded by the working classes to each other ? — I don't think it would, because those who woidd take advantage of the provision made by government, would be of a description that the working classes would not take so much interest in. Indiscriminate charity only would be checked, and with advantage, as many are helped at present from sympathy to their actual misery without reference to their desert ; whereas if proper public relief were given, the really des- titute coidd be sent there, and the unworthy would be prevented from abusing the charity of the benevolent. It would not dry up the sources of charity among the working classes, though there were ])rovision by government for the destitute. 4170. Do you think the Scotch would be too proud to receive relief from the workhouse? — I think they would be very much opposed to it. It would be their last resource. Only those who were absolutely called on by sheer necessity would avail themselves of it. 4171. Would you have desired that your widowed mother and other relatives' children should have been dependent on a public provision ? — Most unquestionably not. 4172. Would any public provision have had the effect of checking your benevolence to- wards them ? — It would not. 4173. Particularly supposing relief in many cases were given in the workhouse as a general nde to able-bodied persons, do you not think that might have the effect of relieving desti- tution, and at the same time of relieving it in such a way as not to impair the pro\ident habits of the working classes ?— I think it might. I think it woidd prevent worse conse- quences, which follow being totally unprovided for ; for many who when they come to a cer- tain stage of poverty degenerate into crime, would be kept from that if they had the last resource of the workhouse ; and when circumstances allowed them, they might enter society again without being reduced to that stage. It would be the last resource ; but it would be one which would save them from degenerating into a course of crime which almost uni- formly follows extreme destitution. 4174. Do you know whether among the lowest classes there is much begging in Edin- burgh, or among the labourers ? — I don't thinkithere is anything like begging among those who are employed. But there is a great deal of begging among the dissolute and intem|)crate when out of employment. There are many who are employed, but are in the habit of drinking for weeks ; and I have known tliem commence begging to carry out what tliey call their " spree." But that is an unusual thing. It is not a criterion. Those who beg live generally in lodging-houses, and when they are thrown out of employment, that is their only resource. But it is not followed by those who are resident m town for any length of time. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 239 4175. Which do you think has the Morst effect on the character of the working man, granting relief on strict conditions or letting him beg? — ^1 think to let him beg. lie loses self-respect ; and when self-respect is lost, it has the most baneful effect. If he had relief in a workhouse with the strictest conditions, and was there kept from bad com- Eany, he would not be nearly so likely to be lowei'ed in his habits as if he were engaged in egging. 4176. Would you make that applicable equally to those who beg in the streets, and to those who beg from house to house ? — I think the mode of going from house to house still more degrading than street begging ; because a person in the streets can beg without being questioned. But when persons go from house to house they are frequently questioned, and resort to a system of prevarication, which itself degrades them. 4177. Do you think begging from house to house a greater temptation to falsehood than public begging? — Yes. The great abhorrence I have of begging is because the parties lose self-respect. If they had something like a right under the poor laws, then self-esteem would not be hurt to the same extent. They would look on their condition as a misfortune ; they might lose self-respect, comparatively ; but they would not consider themselves nearly so much degraded as by being obliged to beg from door to door, or being obliged even to seek the assistance of a friend. 4178. Do you know the condition of single women ? — I cannot say with precision. But I know a good many women who sew in upholsterers' shops. Many of them are in comfor- table circuifistances. Bookbinders' girls are in good circumstances if well employed. But some work only for a few days in the week. They try to eke out a living by sewing at home. But I don't think there are a gi-eat many able-bodied women who are out of employment in Edinburgh, but of the lowest class. 4179. Do you think it desirable to make any arrangement for able-bodied women under strict regulations ? — I think it would be most desirable, and a great preventive of prosti- tution : numbers of servant girls who come from the country, and have no home when out of a place, would be prevented from falling into crime if they had any temporary protection. 4180. When individuals of the working classes are sick, if they have not made any provi- sion by means of friendly societies, how are they maintained during that period ? — It is very difficult to say how. But they arc very generally helped by their shopmates. Those who don't provide when they take iU, perhaps send notice to the person in whose employment they are. If the employer does not advance a little money to get over their sickness, then the shopmates raise a subscription ; but that, if the distress continues to any extent, soon falls off. But I have known it go so far that one young man was maintained by the subscriptions of his shopmates for two years and a half — not altogether maintained— hut they regularly subscribed. He was not an improvident man, however ; but he was a young man of peculiar principles, and he did not approve of friendly societies. He was a very exemplary person, and, perhaps, it was out of respect to his character that the subscriptions were continued so long. 4181. Are they often relieved from the Destitute Sick Society? — I don't think those who are in employment, and have an opportunity of furnishing, perhaps, a tidy house, are re- lieved ; for they never apply to the Destitute Sick Society till their other resources are all gone. 4182. Except in sickness ? — Even in sickness I don't think they are in the habit of apply- ing tiU every other resource is gone. I have known them pledge every article of clotliing and furniture before they would apply. 4183. And the spirit of independence, you think, exists very strongly in the minds of the working classes still ? — Very strongly indeed. 4184. You mentioned that you were secretary to one of tlie trades' unions? — Yes. 4185. Do you think they have the effect, on the whole, of raising the wages and increas- ing the comforts of the working classes ? — The very reverse. My opinion of them is totally changed. I consider them the worst possible things ; and before I left them I stated that change of opinion. I came to that resolution from being connected with the union. From looking at the subject in all its bearings I was brought to that conclusion. 4186. Tcou found it impossible to raise the market price of wages ? — Quite impossible — ridiculous. I believe it im])ossible for master or men to raise or lower wages. They rise or fall according to the demand and supply. 4187. Has the effect of such observation as yours been to diminish the numbers connected with trades' unions ? — Greatly. I know a considerable number who came to the same con- clusion with myself; and this opinion was stated broadly, and without reservation, to the members of the society which held opposite opinions. ■ We were at first, of com-se, reviled ; but I found the effect with the union in Glasgow, and also in Edinburgh, was that those opinions gradually made their way, and those unions are extinct as bodies. For instance, the cabinetmakers' union in Edinburgh, which was very strong, is now extinct, except for the purpose of insuring their tools. And in Glasgow, the union, which embi-aced the whole force of the trade, is now extinct also, except for such insurance. 4188. Does it consist with your knowledge whether the comfort of the working classes is affected by the unions ?— I am convinced they are most injurious to many, not so much from e loss of money, or stoppage of trade, but from their effect on the moral character of the ionists generally. Men who were in the habit of being fully employed, and had no spare ne, and devoted to some useful purpose, but M'hat was calculated on before, were thrown loose on society ; and it led to intemperate habits, and was the cause of great mischief and ■great evil. 4189. Do you think it likely that, in consequence of a change of opinion among the Examinations. Mr Alex. Allaa. 22 Marcli 1B43. 240 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaiiiinations. Mr Alex. Allan. 22 March 1843. working classes, the unions Avoiild soon die away of themselves ? — I think they would soon die away of themselves, if the members were allowed by practical experience to feel that they are really worthless. But I think when they are goaded on by anything like denouncement on the part of their employers, or by the notice of government, it excites a 8})irit of reta- liation, and they rather persevere ; whereas the unions would die of themselves if left to reap the fruits of their own proceedings. 41 W. There would be a better understanding between master and man ? — And greater comfort to the working classes. They would see that it is impossible to do anything to raise or lower wages ; and hence be led to desist from establishing imious. I am convinced that masters sire more generally looked to with respect by intelligent artizans than before. 4191. Do you think habits of intemperance are diminishing or growing among the laboui^ ing classes ? — Diminishing to a very great extent. ■ I don't attribute this so much to the temperance societies, but to the spread of information. There is a great deal of intemper- ance still among the working men, but it is not of the same description as formerly. It is far more civilized (if I may use the expression) than before. For, when I was an appren- tice, there were drinking bouts allowed in shops, which is now unknown in anv well- regulated establishment. The conversation then was commonly on war or Wellington, horse-racing, and other frivolous subjects, often calling into exercise the worst passions. Their conversation is now far more rational. They are now in the habit of reading the newspapers of coui'se. Chambers' Journal, and other publications, and ha'se begun to be- think themselves; and though they have not 'had time to digest it, their reading has tended to civilize them ; and now their conversation is about chartism, whig and tory, church matters, and all sorts of subjects. Good comes out of that ; and the tendency is to modify drinking usages. It is generally conceived (and Mr Chadwick, in his report, states it as a fact) that the best class of workmen arc the most drunken, having most money and most certainty of employment. That may be the case in many towns in England, where education has not sjjread ; but in Scotland I know tliat the very reverse is the fact ; the best work- men are generally the most sober and the most provident. 4192. When you speak of the information, and the taste for information, difftised among the working classes, you refer to all sidjjects, religion included ? — Religion included of course. It is impossible to possess much information without reading on religious subjects, and on questions which have become matter for controversial discussion. 4193. In observing persons addicted to intemperance, would you say that intemperance was caused by destitution, or destitution more generally by intemperance ? — I think destitu- tion is more generally caused by intemperance, 4194. Have instances come under your own observation of intemperance caused by des- titution ? — I know several. Indeed many. 4195. To what was that destitution owing in the cases to which you refer?- — In the fii"st place, it was owing to too early marriages — getting into large families, while the means were not i-ising with their necessities. If a man marries early, without the means of supporting the extra expense incurred, he finds less comfort at home than he had previously ; and if not guided by moral and religious pnnciple, he is apt, imder such circumstances, to fall a victim to intemperance. 4196. If allowances were made by law for able-bodied men, woidd not that have the effect of encouraging early marriages, by holding out sources of relief, independent of their own exertions ? — I think it would, especially if it were to be outdoor relief. 4197. If there was not the check of the workhouse? — Yes. 4198. Have you ever known any depression in trade and manufactures last so long as the present, in the principal manufacturing towns of the west ?— Never. 4199. How long did such seasons of depression continue before?- — My observation might extend over eighteen months or two years, or even tliree years. But I cannot speak posi- tively, as I have not exactly observed the time that depression lasted. 4200. Do you think there would be evil if a law Avere passed, giving power to a particu- lar body of men to order an assessment for a certain time, and to a certain amount, for able- bodied men in a destitute state, during times of depression such as this ? — I don't think it would have a tendency to do evil, but the reverse ; but I would prefer a general law, with the check of the workhouse, to any temporary measure in extreme cases. 4201. But you would not approve of a general law on the subject, for the able-bodied ? — Not for outdoor relief. 4202. When you spoke of friendly societies, you included free masons, Rechabites, and so forth ? — Yes. I don't approve of mason lodges, or the Rechabite system. I think the one is the extreme of the other. The mason lodges lead to drhiking, and alienate men from home ; and the benefit they get from them, as friendly societies, is far more than counter- lialanccd by their bad influence on their habits. The Rechabites are the opposite extreme. They plunge into processions, soirees, and other species of sober excitement, get involved in squabbling and debating ; and the result is, alienation from home. I have known men, of tlie working classes, extreme in intemperance, that have entered the Rechabite and teetotal societies. I5ut they are not much improved, so far as their fimds arc concerned. They may not get di-unk ; but they are just as much alienated fi-om home, and they spend as nmch as before on their meetings, without improving their minds. 4203. Then you would approve most of those societies which have not such private meet- ings ? — Yes. 4204. Friendly societies or savings-banks ? — Standing friendly societies and savings- banks are the best for the working class ; insurance offices for tools, and the like. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 241 4205. \\niat would be the effect on pro\iilent banks and fricntUy societies, if the assess- ment extended much beyond what it is at present, and if tliere were a provision for the able- bodied ? — I think it would have the effect of injui-iug the contributions. They would be less likely to jirovide for themselves, if they saw a permanent pro\'ision for outdoor relief, without the check of the workhouse. It would withdraw fiinds from both the societies and the savings-banks. 4206. But if there were relief in the workhouse, you do not think it would interfere with the spirit of independence ? — I don't think the workhouse woidd check that feeling. 4207. As one of the working classes, and as a friend of the working classes, I suppose you would be against an assessment to relieve the able-bodied ? — rNot against an assessment which would provide substantial relief for those who were objects of it, by providing a workhouse and everv comfort for them there. I would be much in fa-\our of it, to prevent the evils of extreme destitution. 4208. Is there any desire for emigration ? — The very reverse, The only persons who de- sire it are those who have a little capital, or those who are reduced so much, that they have given up hope here. The working classes think it a species of transportation ; and I have often heard it stated, when proposals were made by government on the subject, that they con- sidered it an insult to them, — that they wished them banished. They think that there is sufficient wealth in the country, — rthat if capital had free scope, and the restrictions which have hampered trade and commerce so long were taken off, there would be quite room enough for them to stop at home, in the enjoyment of every reasonable comfort. 4209. Suppose they wore disabused of the idea as to emigration, woidd they prefer it to a claim for relief? — -I don't think it possible to remove the idea. 4210. Supposing it possible, would they be averse to emigration? — r Very averse. They have a strong desire to remain in their native land, Those who emigrate luiA-e an idea of rising in the world. The genei-ality would remain here rather than go to another country, in the lio])e of getting better. 4211. With regard to habits of intemperance, do you observe that general education, excluding religious — without religious impressions being predominant in the mind — is suf- ficient to check intemperance ? — Sufficient in a great degree. I think education has the tendency, even unconnected with peculiar religious opinions, to lessen intemperance. The groat want of the country is not so much a poor law, as a complete system oi national edu-. cation, which would lessen the necessity for a poor law, 4212. Would the same remark apply to illicit connexion with women ? — Most unques-s tionably. Everything that tends to refine the mind assists a man to restrain his passions. 4213. Are you a member of the Edinburgh Caledonian Youths' Friendly Society? — I am, I am the oldest member alive, 4214. Would you state whether the object of the society is mental imjirovement ? — No, It was instituted for the purpose of aft'ording aid in sickness and also funeral money. Of course they had that object which you mention in view ; but it was not the primary object. Their mixing together while young men and forming early friendshijis, is pro^ ductive of the best effects in after life. I ha\e felt that we take an interest in each other ever afterwards ; and among those who have been long members lasting friendship exists, It goes to all countries ; and has created a species of free-masonry amongst us ; it forms an early habit of providing against the day of trouble ; and the menibers are innoculated from their youth as to the propriety of saving their penny a week. I know a great many who are laying by funds and taking the advantage of insurances. 421.5, Have many risen from an inferior position in life? — A considerable number are iq \ iTv comfortable circumstances. But the greatest advantage is the formation of good habits and thinking heads. Generally they are more intelligent than those who have not had the opportunity of coming so much together. Hearing the necessary conversations with refer- ence to the business, they form habits which make them better able to conduct themselves at public meetings and in the gencnd business of life, 4216. Are they less apt to be led away by wrong notions at public njeetlngs ? — A great deal less, I have felt when an opinion was broached, it often led me to maintain rather an opposite opinion ; and a young man is not likely to be so easily led away, when accustomed first to turn things over in his own mind : be is not nearly so accessible to the demagogue as others with less experience. 4217. From your extensive acquaintance with the working classes, have you been able to form any idea of the extent to which those classes have sunk into pauperism ? — No. I can^ not say I have made any observations which woidd enable me to state anything with pre- cision on the subject. 4218. Have any individual cases occurred in which you know of families — once resjiect- ably maintained by the father as a workman — falling, subsequently to his death, into depends ence on parochial relief? — I cannot say, from my own observation, that there are many cases in whieli they have been placed in such circumstances, 421!), In the event of workmen becoming old, and of course less able for employment, have you the knowledge that many of these become dependent on parochial aid ? — A very great many old men, 4220, Have you observed anything peculiar about the character of those men who thus ^ink so as to become paupers ? — I think it is generally the intemperate who sink into that |)08ition, 4221, Has the information possessed by workmen been, so far as you know, the means of venting this ? — Yes, 4222, Have you often seen a shrewd, intelligent workman, who had what we call a good 21 Exaiiiiiiations. Mr A. Allan. 22 March 1843. 242 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Kxsiiiinafions. jilain education, fall into such a state ? — I have seen it frequently ; but I think generally, M- A^l those who are better educated, and are given to reading the publications now so prevalent, 2-i March ia43. ^^^ ^^^ '^6'*' class of workmen, and are not so likely to fall into a state of pauperism. It is those who have least education that have fallen lowest in the scale. 4223. The more intelligent keep themselves and their families up? — Yes; and the more intelligent are looking forward to bettering themselves before they arrive at the stage when they are not able to work. Most of the middle classes are composed of persons who have been workmen originally. I know, in connexion with our own trade, that five out of every six of the most respectable businesses in Edinburgh are those of men who have been originally workmen. lu other trades, I find, to a considerable degree, that the case is the same. 4224. If a higher measin-e of intelligence were generally diffused, the effect would be to raise the Avorknien to a higher status ? — Decidedly. 4225. And would not that also, from what you formerly stated, reconcile a great number to the idea of emigration, if their minds were enlarged, and if they could see that in a colony they had considerable prospects of bettering themselves? — It would, to a considei'able extent; but, from the previous wish to remain in their own country, if they had any chance from remaining at home, it would have a strong tendency to keep them here. They have au unconquerable affection for home. It is the general opinion that it is the restrictive system of trade and commerce which prevents this countiy from being as good a field for enterprise as any other country in the world. 422(5. ^Mth regard to what you said of workhouses, have you ever considered the effect which they might have on an inmate, after he has come forth, and mmgled with society ? — I have, and do not think it would have a deleterious effect : for it is none but those who have no other resources that would live in the workhouse. They would leave it Avith more self-respect than they would have, if they had had recourse to begging. There are evils con- «ected with remaining in a workhouse. The parties are not so constantly employed, and they are coming into collision with persons not of the best habits ; still I don't think it woidd have any great tendency to hurt the minds of those who are there. It would not ha^e any great effect in after life on their good habits. 4227. The workhouse woidd be found, by experience, either an agreeable place of resi- dence, or an uncomfortable one. If it were found agreeable, is there not a danger that this character might be difllised among the working classes? — I don't think, from their notions of the workhouse, and the habits of independence in Scotland, that they ever woidd think it a comfortable place. 4228. If it were found very uncomfortable, woidd the effect be very beneficial on that class ? If they regarded it as a species of imprisonment, woidd they not i-ather prefer the lowest state to which they could sink, to going into the workhouse ? — I don't think it. They would see that it was the last resource ; but they would rather go there than be left in a state of utter degradation ; and this would be the case except with those who take no thought of the matter. 4229. Have you any suggestions to make with reference to the poor laws ? — No ; as I really have had no time to think of the matter since I got notice to attend. Nothing has occurred to me that I recollect at present. 4230. Do you think it would be possible to maintain the poor of Edniburgh, by abolishing the assessment, and leaving them to be relieved from the collections ? — I have no hope of that. 4231. Your observation applies to the present state of things, — supposing a more efficient machinery ? — I have little hope, with the best maeliinery, that it would have the means of providing for the poor, 4232. Suppose a greater number of churches established, with a large staff" of deacons, would the system then operate ? — I don't think it would. I have very little hope of any great good being done by additional churches, in the way of providing for the poor. 4233. Do you think if funds, the same as at present, wei'c provided, and the deacons were left to conduct the administration, the system would W'ork ? — I think they would be the very worst persons to intrust with those funds. 4234. Why ? — Being least acquainted with those who stand most in need of relief, and apt to be swayed by party predilections. (I understand the question as put in the way of giving additional powers to the kirk-sessions connected with the Establishment.) 4235. Supposing between dissenters and the Establishment there was an equal distribu- tion? — If, so far as their own poor was concerned, the distribution were thrown upon the religious bodies, I think it might be well administered ; but I think it would be better if the administration were handed over to a neutral board. 4236. I do not mean that the administration should be conducted by different sects, but that a board, without distinction of sects, should fi)rm the board for administering the funds? — My notion is, that it is much better to keep religion disconnected with civil matters altoge- ther. I don't think it would have a tendency to improve the administration of the poor's funds, to give them over in that way. 4237. Suppose there were a general board, totally unconnected with diflPerent religious sects, for the superintendence of the poor's funds generally, would you object to paupers belonging to particular congregations receiving their aliment through the religious overseers of those congregations ? — Decidedly ; I think it would be much better to come directly from the board. 1 conceive religious bodies would have far more eflTect over the moral discipline of the community, by being totally disconnected with civU matters altogether. Tliey might combine their energies for the dissemination of religion, much better than by being connected with the administration of the poor's funds. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLiUSTD. 243 Mr James Slater, Examined : — 4238. Have you been connected with the working classes of Edinburgh for a considerable time ? — Yes ; 1 have been connected with the working classes for 20 or 21 years. 4239. What are you at present ? — A cabinetmaker. 4240. Have you known the working classes in other towns of Scotland besides Edinburgh ? —No. 4241. What is your opinion of their present situation, compared with what it formerly was ? Is it improved, or is it worse ? — Decidedly worse, within these few years. 4242. To what do you attribute the change in their circumstances ? — To the want of employment. 4243. Have you any idea of the causes of that want of employment ? — I dare say that there are various causes ; but I attribute it in a great degree to the restrictions on the trade and commerce of the country. 4244. Do you think it would be advisable to make such an alteration in the poor laws of Scotland, as would give the able-bodied a claim to relief when out of employment ? — No. I believe the character of the Scotch is such, that if they are oidy employed, they would not deign \o take parochial aid of any description. If they had education and employment, from what I know of their cliaracter, (I have been in a shop in Mr Boyd's establishment for six or seven years,) I beheve they would not be accessible to relief. 4245. Is there any mode you coidd suggest of giving relief during those times of temporary want of employment ? — I do not know, unless a grant of a temporary sum to be applied in the shape of employment — given for work, not as a bonus on idleness. 4246. Is it common for workmen to save money, when in employment, to provide for their necessities, when out of employment ? — So far as I know, there are many of very provident habits ; and some of them have accumulated money in the savings-banks, when they have had plenty of employment, 4247. What is the shop ? — Mr Boyd's, 2, York Place. There are cases of individual suf- fering in the shop, not from want of employment, but from sickness. Those are partially relieved by benefit societies, partly from the shop. AV"e have on several occasions subscribed upwards of 11. to a shopmate who was ill for a considerable time. Ultimately he died, and his burial was defrayed entirely from the shop. 4248. What family ? — A wife and one child. 4249. What was done for them ? — They were looked after by the employer. She is sew- ing ; and they make a livelihood in that way. 4250. She has no relief from any charities? — None. 4251. Do you think intemperance is increasing or diminishing? — Decidedly diminishmg, As education is improving, that habit is given up. Reading, and recreations of that kind, have taken men away from public houses, and such places of resort. I attribute a great deal of the good which has been done to the mutual educating of one another in the young men's societies- 4252. Were you a member of the Caledonian Youths' Society ? — Yes, 4253. Have you found great advantage from being a member of that society ? — ^Yes. 4254. Will you tell us how ? — The first advantage derived from such an institution is, that it elevates the mind, and rouses a spirit of honest independence, not wishing to have recourse to relief, but Inducing them rather, by mutual insurance, to assist one another, and thereby prevent themselves from being a burden on the country. That is one way. Another is, that it occupies the mind ; and as there are discussions at the monthly or quarterly meetings on various subjects, you have to think of them, and, by study, it raises you in point of morals. There is another, and which is a very good feature in the society. As each indi- vidual member has a sort of vigilance over the other, you may almost term it a moral police. As no person receives assistance when disease is brought on by misconduct, one member looks after another ; and by the assistance they give one another in that sort of way, they exercise a sort of supervision over one another, and cause better morals to be disseminated through the community. And I think, from all these different points, that the society decidedly gives an advantage over others to those who are in the society, both in point of morals and of discipline to individuals. 4255. Do you think the emulation created by such societies induces individuals very much to exert themselves in the improvement of their minds? — Yes. 4256. Have you been acquainted with the effects of the friendly and benevolent societies in general ? — I believe, from all the experience I have had — an experience of above seven years — I can give an answer. I have known a great many who have been in other societies, and I can state the result. I have seen much advantage from these. I have been a member of three others besides the Caledonian Youths' Society. I have knov.-n great good from such institutions. The amount of funeral money paid by the whole of these must be very considerable. I have known many instances in which, on an average (I could not speak precisely), I think there could not be less than fifteen persons on the sick roll who Avere receiving sick allowance at one time. This ftmeral money was jjaid in sums of 5^ or 10^. each, besides a very great deal of sick money during tho year ; and I think it is the means of doing a very great deal of good. 4257. The objects of those others is to provide aliment for the sick, and to provide funerals for those who die ? — Yes. 4258. Do you think these societies encourage provident habits among the workmen ? — Yes ; they all tend to encourage provident habits. One exercises vigilance over another. BxaminatioiiE. Mr J. Slater. 22 March 1843. 244 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaininiitions. Mr J. Slater. 22 Martli ia43. 4259. Have j'ou had experience of yearly societies ?— Yes, I have had experience of yearly societies too, 4260. What is your opinion of tlie effect they produce ? — The result is nearly tlie same as with the others. They arc not so good in many respects, as their laws are not framed in the same >vay, and there is not a committee of managers who exert a degree of vigilance over the interests of the society, as in a standing society. And in other respects they are objec- tionable. When a man, at the end of the year, gets sick, say for a week, he is excluded from the next year's society. On these groimds, I think tlicy are not calculated to do so nmch good as fi-iendly societies. I am a member of a yearly society, although I liave not required aid. I have always been blessed with good health. With all their disiuivantages, however, from what I have seen, I can say that they dp a great deal of good, 42G1. Do you think there is difficulty among the workmen with whom you are acquainted in finding educaticm for their children ? — I believe in manj' cases it is not very easy for a man w-ith a family. There are two or three I am acquainted with, one has 7, the other 9. I know another family, where the father is no more; their niunber is 11. It is a great difficulty to those families to get i)ropcr education for their children. And not only so — perhaps education might be got, but then there are other considerations, tliat is, the wants of a family. A family, being reduced to poor oireumstances, and being obliged to send a boy to run errands, or to a shop, before he is of the proper age, for an apprenticeship, the boy is thereby deprived of the education necessary to make him a proper member of society, 42(52. Do you think it would be proper to have schools where such children should receive education and moral instruction at the public expense? — I conceive it would be a great advantage. 4263. Docs the family you allude to receive no aid from public charities ? — None, 4264. How arc they supported ? — In the last case the oldest son has taken up the trade of the father, who was killed by falling from a roof. lie was old enough (being eighteen years of age.) The others are apprentices ; and the mother sells little things, green-groceries. They get a subsistence by those means. In the other cases again, the children are entirely under the support of the fother, with the exception of two boys, who run errands. 4265. Is there anything you could suggest as of greater importance to the worldng classes than the facility of having a good education ? — rNo, I could not suggest anything that would do better, 4266. You said that the circumstances of the working classes are worse now than at if, former period, and attributed that to the want of employment, and the want of emploj'ment to the restrictions on trade : are there greater restrictions on trade now than at a former pe- riod ? — I don't known that there are ; but from the increasing population, and other causes which may affect trade, I bejieve that is the cause. 4267. Then you say the increase of population and other causes operate as well as restric- tions on trade ? — The increase of population has an effect too. 4268. Is there a great want of employment in your depai-tment ? — I believe for the last six weeks and more there have been on the average tliree or foirr men per day seeking employr raent at our shop alone. 4269. Have you ever been acquainted with any trades' unions ? — No, 4270. Are you aware of the effects of trades' unions on the condition of the working classes -^whether beneficial or the reverse ? — I could hardly give a definite answer. I have not studied the subject much ; but I believe trades' unions have a very bad effect on the work^ men in general. T'here are none except the masons, so far as I know, in Edinburgh. The system, where it has taken place, has a very bad effect ; it causes strikes wliich idtimately recoil on the workmen themselves. 4271. Have you ever known workmen benefited by a strike ? — ^Never. 4272. If there is not greater restrictions now than at a former period, how can that have operated to make the circumstances of the people worse ? — Well, I cannot say, I am sure. I am not so versant in political economy. I believe it has caused it ; but how it has caused it I cannot tell. 4273. You stated that you thought the habits of the working classes, on the whole, inir proving ? — Yes. 4274. If that were going forward and were encouraged, would not these better habits have a great tendency to better their circumstances again ? — I believe it would. If the working classes could only get employment and education on a system earned on at the same time, I believe it would ultnnately end in improving their habits. 4275. And the improvement of their habits would improve their circumstances ? — The im- provement of their habits woidd improve their circumstances. 4276. Do you think the working classes of Edinburgh are more deeply impressed with religious feelings than they used to be ? — I believe at the present time they are. 4277. To a very great extent ? — So far as I am connected with them they are. I have heard of societies of Socialists. I never fell in with them. But I believe both the moral and religious character of the working classes is improving. 4278. Do you attribute the decrease of intemiterance among them to the spread of religious knowledge alone, or to the diffusion of general ediication among them ? — I would attribute it to both. 4279. Is it consistent with your observation that general intelligencehas no effect in checking intemperance, unless joined with religious knowledge ?— ^I don't mean to say so. I mean to say that information and the improvement of the mind will lead to improvement in the habits of life even without religion. But I should imagine that the two would form a double check. rOOR LAW INQnRY CO]MMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 245 4280. Have you formed any idea in your own mind about what means would be more effi- cient for carrying out those habits among the working classes ? — I do not know. 4281. How could a stimulus bp given to iuipi'ovement ? — -1 think a stimulus could be given to that improvement by a more liberal and enlightened education among them ; and I think that the next object to education is trade. If they had more employment mixed with a well cultivated mind, I believe it would produce an improved state in society. 4282. Do you think granting relief only, under strict conditions, to able-bodied persons Avhen destitute would have the effect of impairing the habits of the working classes ? — I bcr licve it woxdd. Whenever an individual (it is my conviction, and that of almost all I know) takes anything in the shape of charity, it has a demoralizing effect on his whole system, If he can get it in any other sort of way, an honest individual by woi'king is better than by taking charity. 4283. Will these remarks apply to begging either in the streets or from door to door? — To the whole, I in)agine. 4284. Suppose the idternative were between begging and receiving relief in the workhouse, which would be most demoralizing ? — There could hardly be a doubt about that. Street begging is more demoralizing than taking relief from the parish. 4285. Do you think going to ask assistance from private families in a private way would produce a bad effect ? — -Rlost decidedly. 4286. And suppose these attentions were offered by private individuals in a secret manner, as by neighbours ? — My opinion is, that when a man receives charity it produces a bad effect, He may have a kind benefactor and many kind friends, and when he gets anything in that sort of way it has a different effect from what parochial charity has, A man's feelings must be very wann towards the man who comes and relieves his distress. But still I think if a man coidd get what he has got in charity by working for it, the effect on his njind would be exceedingly superior ; the one being compared with the other. 4287. Suppose relief obtained not from the private wealth of an individual, but from his fellow-workmen, would that have an injurious influence ?— I believe it woidd. I have stated a case where we did that in the shop for one of the men ; and though he was very grateftil, (and recovered so as to come back to work q, little for a week or two), yet, I believe, it had the effect of breaking down the mind, 4288. But would not that individual just be receiving from the workmen what they In turn might expect to receive from him ? — As it was only given by voluntary contributions, it m as not on the same level with a friendly society, when parties have relief from a fund to which they pay, and haye a just right ; and when they get from that fund, it Is not taken from charity ; but where aid is given from any shop, it still is charity, and has a demoralizing effect on the indi^'Idual. Op some it may pi-oduce opposite effects. 4289. Judging from your observation among the woi'kmg classes, would you say that the spirit of independence Is still very strong ?r— Yes, 4290. And what Is their general opinion with regard to parochial relief? — I believe in towns such as ours, tlie relief is a great deal too small In some cases, and in others it Is not deserved. But take It In general, parochial relief Is looked upon as a good system as a whole, but is not sufficient to cover the wants of the poor. 4291. But are they willing to accept of it? — I believe, taking It in general. It Is the last resource to go to the poorhouse. Nothing Is so common among the working classes as sayT ing, in certain cases where a man Is thoughtless and wasteful, as a matter of reproach. " You will come to the poorshouse." A man must be reduced to the last and lowest grade, before he betakes himself to the poorshouse. 4292. You mentioned that you had discussions In the Caledonian Youths' Society, — what were the discussions upon ? — About the laws and the cases. If a person is found out of doors, while on the sick list, after nine o'clock at night, he is bi'ought up find fined. Then the improyement of the laws, and such other things, furnish other topics. 4293. Then the discussions relate entirely to the regulations of the society ?-^-The regula- tions of the society more or less. 4294. You had no discussions separate from the business ?— None, 4295. From your observation of the working classes, would you say that intemperance prevailed most among those who received high, or those who received low wages? — I believe among those who receive low ^yages intem[)erance prevails generally. 4296. You think those wlm have high wages are generally temperate men ? — Yes, I do. The reason is, that most of those who make high wages are provident — constant at work— (^they work by the piece) — and so accumidate more than others. It is always market] in the book we keep in tlie shop for the men's wages, There are a few jolnprs on day's wages. Those who receive most money are known to be the most pnidcnt and careful Indi- viduals. 4297. You mentioned three or four men per day asking employment; do they belong to Edinburgh or the country? — A good niany belong to Edinburgh. Some are from the Fife side, others from Glasgow, others from different parts of the country. 4298. You are aware there are a number of free schools in Edinburgh : — do the working classes avail themselves freely of them ? — I believe they do to such an extent that there Is no getting in for the number of applications, 4299. Then you think there is a deficiency In that particular In Edinburgh ? — Yes. 4300. Would you have free schools, or would you have them to pay a small sum ? — I think they should pay a small sum to make them prize it. 4301. Then the objoction you make is to the high rate of school wages? — Yes. 4302. Do you think it possible to maintain the poor of Edlnbiu"gh by abolishing the assessa ExaminaHung. Mr J. Slater. ■2-2 Maroli 1843. 246 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Exainiiintions. ment, and making them depend on the collections at the chnrch doors ? — I tliink it would be ;— absolutely impossible to support them on the church door collections. I am a rate-payer ; and •'i Miv.^i"i84'< ^ don't think it possible that they civn be supported on the collections. 4303. Do you think it would be desirable to raise money by assessment, and inti-ust the distribution to each kirk-session in Edinburgh ? — I do not think it would be desirable. 4304. Why ?— One reason is, because the kirk-sossions would not have such a good oppor- tunity of knowing tlio individuals who get relief, as a general boanl who are constituted for that puqwse, and have nothing else to do — ^such as tlie West Cliurch manao'crs. 4305. Would there not be a special staff of deacons, whose duty it would be to inspect ? Yes ; but taking into account that most of these are men of business, they would not be able . to attend. Some men make it their whole study ; but, as a general ride, many attend to their own business, which must be done. 4306. Have you any suggestions to make for an alteration of the poor laws in any way ? — No. I have none. If, as I have said, they have only work and education, there is no need for any altemtion In the poor laws. Mr Aitken. Mr Aitken, Examined : — 4307. Are you engaged in any occupation in Edinburgh I — I was bred to the profession of a tailor, but am not engaged in it now. 4308. What is your profession now ? — I keep a temperance coffee-house. 4309. How long is it since you ceased to pursue your first employment ? — I was a work- ing man till a period of betwixt six and seven years ago. 4310. Are you well acquainted with the habits of thought and modes of living among the working classes in Edinburgh ? — I could confidently say that I am, for a variety of reasons. 4;511. Is tliere any wish among the working classes to have the poor laws altered in any way ? — I do not think I have heard a wish expressed to that effect. 4312. You have not heard the subject discussed at all ? — When the subject of poverty, and of the very great poverty which at present exists, is discussed, there seems a universal repugnance among those who are employed, and those who are out of employment, to relief from the parish, if they could get aid in any way by their own exertions, 1 would ascribe that to a feeling of national independence. I have sojourned in England as a workman ; and the feeling there is as different as possible from that of my countrymen at home. 4313. In what part of England ? — London. 4314. Many years ? — No, about twelve months. 4315. How long ago? — 15 or 16 years ago. 431G. Are you acquainted with any able-bodied persons out of employment ? — I am ac' quainted with a very great number. 4317. At present ? — At present. 4318. Are you acquainted with men who are destitute at present through causes inde- pendent of their own acts? — Yes, very many. 4319. Who have been honest industrious men, and provident ? — No, I cannot include provident. The greater part of the working population — the working classes — may be divided into two classes — a superior and an inferior class. There is a class, who, from a tone of independence, take care of their habits, and these are such as to save them from a state of sheer dependence. There is another class, who, from their dissipated habits, are always exposed to difficulties. There was one case that lately came under my observation : I had to purchase a coffin, and bury a youth out of a house where there was absolutely nothing in the house but straw, and the remains of what had once been a four-posted bed. After we went to take away the boy, who was a shoemaker's apprentice, I discovered that there was no coffin. My wife had raised some 14s. which she had given up improperly to the parents of the boy. The recorder took the money for the churchyard dues. Mr Armour of Buccleugh Place, another gentleman and I went to the place, and we found there was no coffin. The boy was lying with a portion of a sheet which the wife of Mr Armour had given ; and I went to a person who is a manufacturer of coffins, and procured one. Such was the state of destitution, that the family had nothing to eat. I never saw a case of more extreme wretchedness. 4320. Had they been a temperate family ? — I dare not say that they were not. I should suspect otherwise. 4321. Are the greater proportion of those who are out of employment intemperate per- sons ? — The greater proportion of those who are out of employment are temperate, be- cause they are without means, and cannot get drink. There is one portion who would do so if they could ; but I know many who are virtuous, honest, industrious men, and who ai-e in destitution by causes over which they have no control. 4322. How do the working classes wish that a crisis of this kind should be met, — do they wish the able-bodied relieved ? — If they have one opinion rather than another, it is tliat there should be employment, — that government should proceed with public works for the purpose of affording them such employment. They desire nothing but to live by their own labour ; but when driven to the extreme starving point, men with families will do things they would revolt from under other circumstances. I have sometimes aided a very excel- lent gentleman, councillor Macaulay, who has taken a deep interest in the unemployed. POOR LAW COMMISSION INQUIRY FOR SCOTLAND. 247 They now get 6d. a day in the Meadows. I have aided sometimes in keeping under con- E'faininations. trol the very worst passions of human nature, which have been shown among them on ac- — ; — count of their extreme destitution. 2-''^Min'l'ui"4i 4323. You said that many were out of employment at present, — what are their trades or professions ? — I could particularize perhaps a few ; but from observing the great number I see out of employment, I could not make an exact statement, but a great proportion belong to trades, — tailors, shoemakers, some brassfounders, and plumbers. But I could not particularize all, because I believe the unemployed are made up of all trades. 4324. Does it consist with your knowledge that a considerable proportion of the working classes unemployed, are persons who would not in ordinary times find employment? — I do not know but the majority of them might find work, if the question refers to artizans or handicraftsmen. If you refer to those who are stone-breaking, then all those who ia ordi- nary times could gain a livelihood are the great majority., I am free to admit that there may be a certain part of the men who claim relief from the committee, who are not, strictly speaking, men who would attach themselves to honest labour and virtuous habits if they could otherwise do. But the great bulk of them are honest men. exceedingly will- ing to work, and they only ask relief as the last resource to save them froin starvation. 4325. Do you think granting relief to the able-bodied destitute has an injurious effect ? — Decidedly not, when destitute thousands have, as in the present depressed state of trade, no other recourse than beg, or apply to the parish for relief. Were matters to continue long as they are at present — I mean a general want of employment — it would most cer- tainly be destructive of those feelings of self-respect and self-dependence which have always characterized my countrymen. It is employment in honest labour that they want, not protection within workhouses. They would spurn it — it is like taking the best blood out of their body. They have spoken to me almost in tears for having to apply to the authorities for relief in the shape of charity. 4326. Then they are averse to receive relief? — From the workhouse. 4327. Do you think that with this aversion, relief in the workhouse would impair their improvident habits .'' — I think it would. 4328. Notwithstanding their great abhorrence ? — I believe it would have a bad effect on those who went there. It would destroy their provident habits. 4329. Supposing the alternative were between begging — in the case of destitute persons either from house to house, or in the streets, on the one hand ; and receiving legalized relief on the other- — which would be most demoralizing to the character ? — I would require time to consider that. Am I to understand that men would be taken into the workhouse as in England ? I am afraid I might give a wrong opinion. I should like time to think of that before offering an opinion. 4330. Do you think relief should be given in the workhouse ? — -No — from what I have seen and known I think not. 4331. Do you think low allowances have a good effect ? — I have known some who are in the receipt of relief from the workhouse who made a bad use of the aid — but I have seen many deserving poor but honest men receiving a small pecuniary aid. 4332. Do you approve of a provision for old age ? — Most distinctly. 4333. But you don't think the effect is to impair provident habits ? — If the state of the country had continued prosperous, the great bulk of the working classes would be able to provide for themselves till unable to work. I have known men live ten, twelve, or twenty years, and be kept on by a friendly society. I have known men who have lived for twenty- five years supported by a society, which yesterday broke up, having lasted from 1792. 4334. Do you think a man would be equally saving if he had a right to receive a main- tenance in old age from the parish.? — I think he would be equally so. They look on parish relief as the last resource. I know it is different elsewhere ; but if I understand my countrymen aright, they place no great confidence in the resources of the workhouse. Some of dissolute habits do not share this feeling, but many of them there are who, though the present state of trade is so bad, have difficulty in laying aside their feeling on this subject. It would not deter them from entering friendly societies which pay out certain sums in sickness and certain sums at death. I have had a good deal to do with societies of that kind. 4335. Why then should you think that a bad effect would be produced by granting them relief in the workhouse ? — It would destroy their provident habits. 4336. While making provision for old age, would it not destroy those habits ? — The two things are different ; the community are bound to provide for the impotent poor who are unable to provide for themselves after a life spent in labour ; but if a healthy strong man in the workhouse has a right to claim food, clothing, and shelter, this might have the effect of making him lazy. 4337. But why will not a provision for old age make them lazy ? — Because they look upon it as the last resort in old age. 4338. But why should they not look to the workhouse in middle age as a last resource ? — They always hope that they will get wherewithal to live without having recourse to the workhouse in middle age. 4339. Then they would look on the workhouse in middle age as a last resource ? — They would. If calamity were as wide spread as it is now, they might do so ; but they would look to the workhouse against their will. It would only be when driven to extremity that they would have recourse to the parish. 4340. Do you think the parish bound to maintain a person in old age ? — I think the lords of the soil are bound — who enjoy all the benefits resulting from the land ; and from whom their fellow-men (though less fortunate than they are), when in old age are entitled to re- 248 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Jixaniiiiaiioii.-. ceive support. The great misfortune to the working man is that there is no trade. When they are thus thrown out of employment, the common laws of benevolence require, and 22 March l»43 they have a right to demand a maintenance, if they claim it. 4341. Why should such parties have a right to relief more than able-bodied persons who are not able to find emjjloyment ? — I cannot conceive such a state of things continuing long where the able-bodied would not be able to find employment. 4342. But in periods when such depression exists, and it is absolutely impossible for an individual to find employment, how can he have less a right than one in old age ? — The laws of humanity come again to his aid, and require that he should receive food and cloth- ing ; but the hope is that this state of things will not remain as at present, but that certain legislative enactments should be altogether removed, and this would enable the producing millions to find both in plenty, by honest industry. 4343. Have temperance societies become more common among the working classes of Edinburgh.'' — Yes. I could mention numbers who, having risen from the lowest state of depravity and demoraliaation, are now respectable members of society themselves, and their families happy around them, — men that were a pest to their friends, and a disgrace to their kind. 4344. Are the persons who belong to them principally from Ireland or from Scotland? — In my own presence, and in my own house, last year, 1842, 2443 signed the pledge against intoxicating liquors; nineteen out of twenty were Scotchmen, and they form part of the as.sociation here referred to, but are distinct from the Cork branch of Father Matthew's association, being nearly all Catholics. 4345. What are the numbers in the Irish association ?— The last time I heard, those who were consistent amounted to 720 adults. Considerably above 1200 have signed the pledge. There are some in Edinburgh who belong to a branch of the Cork total-abstinence society. 434l). Would you say, in proportion to the numbers in Edinburgh, more Irish had signed the pledge than Scotch ? — No, I could not say so ; but the Irish are more exemplary, because they keep their pledge more stedfastly. They look on it in a different light from my countrymen, and I am sorry for it. 4347. Then the temperance among the Irish has had a good effect upon the Scottish population 1 — ^I cannot say that ; but I should say they have kept the pledge generally more strictly than my countrymen. 4348. Does it consist with your knowledge, that these temperance societies discuss poli- tical or other subjects than those which they have especially in view ? — Every thing else, particularly politics, is discarded. No person is permitted to introduce, far less to speak on politics. We have nothing as a society to do with religion or politics. We take all men, but don't trouble them as to their creeds or politics. If a Jew applies for admission, he is as welcome as any other ; and we have Jews and men belonging to every christian creed. 4349. And do the working classes desire that assessments should be abolished ? — I am not so well aware of their feelings on that subject as to speak. 43.50. Is it your opinion that it is practicable to support them without a compulsory assess- ment ? — Certainly not. 4351. What would be the feelings in Edinburgh, if the compulsory assessment now imder the administration of the workhouse managers were intrusted to the kirk-sessions ? —I don't know that any very great objection would be offered ; that subject I have not looked on by anticipation, and I could not say. 4352. Are the parties who take the temperance pledge generally educated ? — It embraces men of every class. We have clergymen of every denomination. Medical men ; respect- able citizens of every class ; a large number being made up of working men. But I do think, if clergymen would take a deeper interest in the subject, it would be better for the morals of the people ; but we have got considerable opposition from several of them. Some, not very much to their credit, have given us opposition. 4353. How .'' — By denouncing the principle. I do not know that I require to speak on that subject ; but I may state, that gentlemen from the pulpit and elsewhere have expre.ssed their opposition to it. They have been endeavouring to pull down the work we have been raising up, and this is deeply deplored by the friends of temperance. 4354. Don't you think there is some danger of exchanging a responsibility to man for responsibility to God ] — No. This is not involved in the pledge. 4355. What is the pledge you take .'' — I shall repeat it if you please : — " I do voluntarily promise that I will abstain from ale, porter, cyder, wine, ardent spirits, and all intoxicat- ing liquors whatever; and will not give, nor offer them to others, except as medicine, and then only when prescribed by a legal medical practitioner, or in a religious ordinance ; and that I will discourage all the causes and practices of intemperance." 435(5. And that promise is made to whom ? — It is a voluntary promise made in the society's book, having that pledge on the first page. It is read over to the person, and he is asked, are you free and willing to act on the principle therein contained. Then they sign, and are told that is a moral obligation they have entered into. 4357. Then the pledge is made to the society 1 — Distinctly. 4358. Is not that an obligation to man, constituting a new responsibility ! — Just in the same manner as we enter into obligations between man and man. 4359. Do you not think there is a danger of exchanging a responsibility to man for responsibility to the great Creator and Governor of .ill ? — The principle of temperance has always been vindicated on the grounds of Christianity ; and I don't think there is any POOR LAW COMJ^nSSION INQUIRY FOR SCOTLAND. 249 inconsistenoy. Take the case of a common drunkard. That person is stupid with drink, — his moral feelings are blunted, — and he does not care much about the God and Creator of the universe. That man never can be a thoroughly religious man ; and before a man can become pious or good, he must be made a sober man. For if you have had any experience among drunken men, you would see that this view of the case is correct. 4360. Does it consist with your knowledge that there are in Edinburgh always a consider- able number who are unemployed in ordinary times ? — There has been a superabundance always for the last ten or twelve years. Some trades are more easily learned, some are less dangerous, and parents often send their children to these trades — to be tailors, for instance. In that trade, where the labour is combined with the capital necessary to purchase the best quality of cloth, the regular trade is affected, while the best workmen are generally more fully employed than those who are not so good workmen ; and of this trade there has been a superabundance of late years. 4361 . Have you anything to suggest for the improvement of the working classes, or for the better administration of the poor laws .? — Had I thought my opinion would have been asked, I could have been ready to enter on the subject. The working millions would be better by an alteration of the corn laws. If they got cheap bread, and the restrictions were taken off corn and British manufactured commodities, this would give an impetus to trade and commerce, which would benefit, to a very large extent, the productive classes. 4362. Would you suggest any alteration in the poor law ? — I could not at a moment's notice. 4363. Have you had an opportunity of being acquainted with trades' unions ? — I have, perhaps, had too much to do with them. 4364. Have they worked favourably or unfavourably for the working classes ? — I think they have worked unfavourably. I was at one time connected with the national consoli- dated union, and we fancied we could do great things, but we could do nothing. Lord Brougham prognosticated what would take place in a few sentences, and he was right. It was told us on the committee, that several men got money from the government and the trades and went to America. I knew men who lay in jail for two years. They drew lots who should come out ; many strange notions we had in our heads. The trades in London — the tailors, the coopers, the carpenters, were in unions. We raised a great deal of money through the country, and when one trade accomplished its object, then other trades came out. Sir Charles Wetherell made a boast, that he would walk to the Palace and the House of Commons with ladies' petticoats sooner than that the tailors should succeed in their strike. We expected a strike in this town. I am thinking how far it would be prudential, for the sake of those who are earning their bread by the sweat of their brow, to enter into particulars. I may again have to do a day's work for a day's bread — it is not likely ; but I should not wish to injure the productive classes. 4365. The great object is to ascertain how far ti-ades' unions affect the condition of the working classes ? — I think they are as injurious among the working classes as among others ; there are designing men who desire to live well at the expense of their fellow-men. I saw a printed copy of a bill, embodying one of the designs of the working men to protect and legalize Rechabite societies. There is a bill tried to be passed through the Houses of Par- liament. In fact, speaking of trades' unions, there are always men found too idle to work, and too knowing for their fellow-workmen ; and what betwixt trades' unions and others, they always contrived to get something. These had tramping cards from the hatters, the tailors, and others, to the trades' club-houses. I remember we had a penny worth of bread and a bit of cheese for supper, while the curriers and others had their allowance, though the amount of money was not the same. They were to be heard of and found at the club- houses. The unions generally went down. The curriers', the tailors', the hatters', lasted longest. The tailors' union in England is down. The hatters' still exists. The curriers' does not. They all fell down from their own dead weight. They often took their rise from the designs of the ill-conditioned workmen, upon their better disposed fellow-workmen ; but the fundamental principle of those was to give relief to poor men out of work. They were intended for that at first, but designing men got their hands in at Manchester, and elsewhere, and getting in to be secretaries and presidents, they did what they liked ; and as the unions were illegal, these parties could not be sued at law for their transactions. These clubs were not found illegal under any acts lately passed but under the 7th George IV., May 29, 1826. There is another act passed in her present Majesty's reign, being beyond the pale of the law, those who laid violent hands on the money were allowed to keep it, the law not recognizing as legal Odd Fellows and Rechabites who have secret signs and pass words. With regard to the working classes and temperance, it might be desirable to state, that there is a very extensive association of the Rechabites. It is a friendly society. It is destined to bring ruin on all concerned. They are endeavouring to get a bill passed for certain purposes. Lord Duncan and Mr Brotherton are the parties who introduced the bill. A few designing men in Manchester, who were Odd Fellows, were successful in planting total-abstinence principles with their Odd Fellowship, — a some- what unnatural alliance. They have signs and other things common to secret societies ; they number 30,000 now. This independent order of Rechabites, pays 4d. a week into the fund, and receives 10s. when sick, and so much funeral-money. But the laws are so made out, that the executive council in Manchester keep the thing in their own hands : just as a man comes out of one office he is put into another, and a man in Manchester fets 156^. off the pence of the members. He is called the corresponding secretary, mention this as an example of the designing men who take advantage of the working I classes. 2K Examinations. Mr Aitken. 22 March 1843. 250 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr Aitken. 22 March 1843. 4306. Then jou are of opinion that trades' unions do not work for the advantage of the working classes ? — I think not. 4367. You don't think it possible to raise wages beyond the price of the market ? — I be- lieve it an impossibility. For a time it might be done to some extent. From a system of piracy which has been introduced into two trades in Edinburgh, I question their being capable of doing it. Those trades are, the tailors and printers. In the latter, booksellers are becoming printers, and printers booksellers ; and many who are in the cloth trade are becoming tailors. Thus, the legitimate trade is overset, and the working man does not get by one-thu-d for making those garments what he got three years ago. 4368. Have you known families that have suffered very great destitution in consequence of strikes produced by trades' unions 1 — Decidedly. I have known many die from con- sumption in consequence of their wanting food for days when a strike has occurred. I have helped such persons who, rather than act dishonourably to their fellow-workmen, would suffer anything. It would subject a man to be called a rat if he were to work for under wages — rather than do so, they suffer privations which bring on premature death. I saw a man once who lived for three days on the orange peeling which he had picked up on the street, and I took him to my own house, and gave him food. 4369. Was that from fear of others? — I did not ask; but probably he was actuated as much from an honourable feeling that he would not betray his trade. 4370. But wiis there not frequently force employed ? — I have known force employed, but not to the extent which is imagined ; for, among the working men, there are many shrewd, intelligent, calculating men ; when the dominant party presses particular proposals, there is another party whose moral influence, if not their number, out-weighs that of the other party. 4371. Would it be safe for any individual to accept of work at a lower rate of wages ? — In some cases it would. In Edinburgh it would be safe in almost all the trades. Many would have been allowed to go if they had thought proper, but they would have been marked, and a stain of degradation would have been attached to their characters. 4372. That would have a very powerful effect 2 — Yes. They would have shown a pas- sive feeling, degrading them, without insulting them personally. They never would have associated with them. They would have lost caste. It would have been said, — " Oh, that man has lost caste : he ratted at such a time." 4373. You have said there was a bill brought in by Lord Duncan and Mr Brotherton. Do you mean that they are actually engaged in bringing it in, or that they have been ap- plied to -for the purpose of doing BO'S — I had this week in my possession a copy of a bill proposed for the independent order of Rechabites, and Lord Duncan and Mr Brotherton have their names printed on the title page. I could wish them well acquainted with the facts of the case before they interfere. A society of Rechabites broke up about a year ago. 500/. of their money remained. One party said the society was beyond the pale of the law, and no legal claim could be established to the money which remained in the hands of the bank where it was lodged at interest. 4374. Is the object of the bill to legalize these societies? — To legalize them; while only the other year similar societies of a secret nature were suppressed as much as they, the government, well could. I think it a very bad thing for the community, if any of those secret societies be legalized. If gentlemen in the upper ranks of life knew as much as I know, they would oppose such a measure. These societies are most destructive to the feelings and interests of parties. Of that 500/. of which I spoke, no party can lay claim. One portion went to Mr Henderson, advocate-depute, on the subject. We got out the necessary papers, and he certified that we were now an inrolled society ; but the 500/. of our money we cannot get. The others say it belongs to the order. We cannot handle a half- penny. Mr D. GoodalL -^'' ^'^^^^^ Goodall, Examined : — 4375. ^\niat is your occupation ? — I work in a brush factory ; but I am a trunkmaker. 4376. How long have you resided in Ediubui'gh ? — Above forty years. 4377. Have you any opportunity of becoming acquainted with the feelings and habits of the working classes in Edinburgh ? — Yes, I have. I have worked in a shop where there are between twenty and thirty people, and where there was a good deal of employment, — a good many peoj)lc have gone through that shop. 4378. What do you conceive to be the feeling of the working classes with regard to an alteration of the poor laws ? — So far as I am acquainted, it is that there is a difficulty in the present poor laws ; but the general feclln" is not in favom- of the English poor law. 4379. AVhat alterations do they generally desu-e? — They generally think the aliment for those who are laid aside from work is insufficient. 4380. Is that your opinion ? — It is my opinion. 4381. How would they propose to remedy that defect? — I cannot say how they would propose to remedy it, — the general opinion is not that there should be an assessment for the piupose. They consider generally that too little is given for those who are Laid aside entirely from Avork, — the outdoor poor, such as widows with children. Sometimes they have so little, it is difficult for them to maintain themselves. 4382. Is it your opinion that it would be safe to trust the maintenance of the poor to voluntary contribution — to voluntary contribution entu-ely? — No. In a parish where I POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 251 Mr D. Goodall. 22 March 1843. resided for twenty-four years, there is an assessment. I understand the contributions at the Examinations. church doors are added, but there is an assessment wliich all pay that rent houses above il. per annum. 4383. But the question is, would you think it advisable to abolish the assessment alto- gether, and trust to voluntary contributions? — It is not my opinion that it should be abolished. 4384. But is it the opinion of some of the working classes ? — They consider it unnecessary to have a large assessment. They do not think that such an assessment as exists in England would be acceptable. 4385. "With regard to those who are on the list, you stated that they wished that the allowance should be increased, — do they mean that the voluntary contributions should also be increased? — Yes; but I consider an assessment superior; at present they consider the allowances as too small. 4386. They would have the end without being willing to supply the means ? — Something very like that. They msh the poor to have larger allowances ; but a large assessment is by no means popidar. 4387. Their objection to the English system rather arises from the dislike of the assess- ment being raised ? — Yes. 4388. Have they any wish that able-bodied persons should be relieved when destitute ? — No. I never heard that expressed by the working men themselves ; but I have heard men say so, who had never been known to express a desire for parochial relief. 4389. Do you think it would be desirable that able-bodied persons in destitution should be relieved, — do you think it would impair the provident habits of the Scotch ? — It would increase the number of those who would be idle. 4390. Do you think that would be the result of giving relief in a workhouse ? — I don't think it would be effectual in a workhouse ; but it would be effectual in destroying indus- trious habits out of doors. 4391. Do you know many able-bodied persons of good character out of employment just now ? — I know very few. In the circle of my acquaintance I know only three or four, and they have not been out of employment for any length of time. 4392. What are the classes out of employment just now ? — A considerable number are mechanics, but most of them arc labourers. 4393. Are you acquainted with any of those who are on the unemployed list ? — No. 4394. Do you know the condition of able-bodied single M'omen in Edinburgh,^s there much destitution among them ? — No, I cannot say I am much acquainted with them. 4395. Have you reason to believe that any parties come from either parishes to gain a settlement in Edinburgh ? — I have often heard it stated, but it never came under my notice. I have heard that parties who have become unfit for farm labour rather drew to Edinburgh for the purpose of enjoying relief when they had acquired a settlement. I have known several instances of individuals who had come, to the pai'ish, where I resided in the hope that they would receive something after they had got a claim ; I know especially the cases of old men who come for that purpose, — ^men who had formerly been ploughmen. 4396. Coidd they not have received relief in their own parish if they had remained ? — I cannot say whether they would or not. They were willing to work as long as they were able, and they are not so long fitted for country work as for that in the town. 4397. They came for work ? — Yes, but I have heard it said by individuals that they rather go to cities and towns, because they would get less relief in the country. 4398. From what parish did they come ? — Two of them came from a parish in the neigli- bourhood of Tranent. 4399. What time had they resided ? Had they acquired a right to relief by settlement ? — Yes. 4400. They could not have gone back to their country parishes ? — I cannot say as to that, how they would have ordered it in the country parishes. 4401. You mentioned that they would not go back to their own parishes, as they would not receive so abundant relief as in a city parish ? — Yes. In the country they are worse provided for than in town, when they are laid aside from work. 4402. If they acquired a legal settlement in Edinburgh, they could not go back to the country ? — I never understood but that they could go if they chose. 4403. They came for work, and being here they gave as a reason for remaining their expec- tation of better allowances ? — -That is what I meant to express. They were past country work, — they thought in the event of their being unable to work, they would be better provided for in town. 4404. Do you recollect how many of these cases are there ?— I cannot say precisely the number, as they happened several years back. 4405. Have you anypersonal experience of the management of the poor in country parishes? — ^No, I never resided in a country parish since I was a child. 4406. Do you think it desirable in any way to alter the law of settlement ? — I can't say as to that whether it would be so or not. 4407. Have you any opinion as to the tcmi^erate habits of the working classes. Are they more temperate or less so than they used to be ? — So far as my acquaintance M'ith the work- ing classes extends, I think they are more temperate than some years back. With regard to the particular business I have followed, I think there is no difference ; but there is with regard to the generality. 4408. Is their moral and religious conduct improved? — Rather improved than other- wise. 252 MINUTES OF EViPJvNCP TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr D. GoodalL 21 Marcb 1843. 4409. Have you been acquainted with a.ny trades' u^OBS ^ any time ? — No, I never was connected >yith any flf these. 4410. Are you aware of the effects they have liad on the iatxpuring classes ? — ^With regard to my own oi)inion, I don't tliink they have been at all adyaptageous, 4411. You think them disadvantageous ? — Yes, as leading tQ strikes, which have a nxpst disastrous influence on the interests of the working classes. 4412. Have you any suggestions to make with reference to th,e poor laws? — No, I have not. Friday, 2ith March 1848, MEM3ERS PRESENT. Liord Belhaven, Henry Home Dnimmond, Esq., M.P., .James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, a#4 Rev. Jajnes Robertson, I.ORD BELHAVEN IN THE CHAIR, Mr A. Thomson, ii March 1843, Mr Archibald Tlwmson, Merchant, Edinbiu-gh, Examined :— r- 4413. You are one of the managers of the charity workhouse ?— r-Yee. 4414. Have you been a member of the finance committee ?-^No ; I anjt a member of thfl auditing committee. 4415. Have the goodness to explain the mode in which the coranjittee is conducted, and how it conducts its audits ? — The election is annual : it is chosen at an annual general meeting of the managers. 4416. In regard to the auditing of the accounts, what are the precautions taken to ensure no more money being paid for the relief of the poor tlian the managers have authority for ?— ^ When the subject of the debt came above board, wliich was accumulating fast at the tinje I came into the management, we resolved to increase the check on the treasurer as far as possible ; and for that purpose we appointed a finance cominittee. Tliis committee assenjbles every morning at nine o'clock in the collector's room. They examine his book, and the money he has paid into the bank, twice a week. Their duty is to e?;amine all the accounts brought up fcr payment. They come up to them checked by the superintendent or house-governor sujd house committee. They examine them, and if they are satisfied that they ought to be paid, they mark thern as approved, and order payment accordingly. They then request the treasurer to draw out an order on the bank for the amount, which he signs, and which they countersign. The auditors meet every quarter ; and the whole of the papers are brought up to us — all the accounts that are paid and entered in the cash-book. We again go over the accounts to see that they are properly marked, and that the payments have been properly made, and that the entries in the cash-book have been properly done and finished. After all has been marked off in the treasurer's cash-book, wc take the church collection books from the difl^erent kirk-sessions, and they are marked and carefully gone over to see that they are entered into the treasurer's cash-book, and are of the same amount as the sum received by the kirk-sessions. We also take the bank-book^ wliLch is produced every quarter, and we see what money has been drawn out, and what remains in the bank. We take the out» pension book, and add it up during the quarter. This book is a very serious part of our .duty, because the paying of outdoor poor requires a good deal of attention ; and when they are paid, and marked in thci pension-list, generally one or two of the managers sit by the treasurer and see that the money is properly applied. The sum drawn out of the bank to pay them is looked at after they are paid, and the book is added up and signed by those present at the time. AYe add up aU the cash-book from beginning to end during the quarter, and see that what is due by, or to, the treasiu-er, is properly brought forward, and everything correct, 4417. In regard to the outdoor poor, what is the authority, in each individual case, to the treasurer for the payment of the money, — is it the signature of one of the committee ? — There is an admission committee, or a committee to examine into the difierent cases which are reported to them, and they judge of every case according to its merits : and they decide that each family is to receive Gs. or 12s. a quarter, i)x so much in the si$ weeks ; and a ticket to that effect is given accordingly. 4418. Is it signed by the chairman of the committee ? — I think that is the mode of pro=- ceeding, 4419. Are all these tickets, signed by the chairman of the admission committee, cast up and compared ? — Yes, at least such is my impression, 4420. At what periods ? — When the sujn is expended by the treasurer for their relief. My impression is, that every one who receives the pension, receives it in the presence of one or two of the managers ; and they see that the tickets are all right when presented, and that the payments made are marked in the out^pension list. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 2^ 4421. Is there any separate book in which all the snms given^ in each individual case, are written down, and countersigned by the chairman of the (?on«ni$tee ?— I am not aware that there is a separate book of that kind. 4422. You go on the principle of one or two of the> computtee being always present when the money is paid to each pauper ?— Yes ; and they see that the sum. balances at the end when they sign the book. 4423. In your quarterly audit, you haye no bpok which shows how much each pauper has received ? — Yes, we get the out-pension list, and see that the managers have authenticated the payments. This comes under the auditing committee. The pension, list is laid before us, and wp add all the payments up, and see that the different dates of payment are properly authenti/catf^ by one of the managers. 4424. The permanent list ? — Yes, the book that contains the whole out-payments. 4425. But in regard to the occasional poor ? — I am not so sure about them. The treasurer must, of course, in suoh oases, take a little on himself. Cases must occur in which he is obliged to take a little, on himsolf. If any one have a claim on a coimtry parish, for instance, he may give Is. or 2s., or whatever it may be, to carry them there, — this he takes on himself, and the njanagers examine, in regard to it afterwards, and approve of what he has done. 4426. And this is brought before you at the general, audit ? — Yes, and all the accounts also against coimtry parishes ; and all the money paid on account of paupers remitted comes before us also. 4427. Then you have before, you written authority by aignatiuse for each payment made to outdoor paupers ?— r-Yes, 4428. And you add up and see that the. sums expended correspond with the sum total?—: Yes, it is very careftilly done. 4429- Is it done weekly ?.^-Only once a quarter. 4430. The finance committee meet every Monday morning you say ? — Yes. 4431. They do not go over any of these accounts? — The finance committee go over, these accounts and order payment, — the auditing committee go over them a second time. Their duty is to see the cash properly paid into the bank, and that the accounts brought for payment are properly instructed ; and the ordei's on the bank are countersigned by them. 4432. You have nothing to do with the auditing of the collector's accounts ? — No. 4433. You mentioned the church books in which are entered the collections at the church doors, — are the whole of those collections paid over to the charity workhouse,^or are there any deductions for the payment of parish oflScers ? — No, we claim the whole collections at the chvu-ch doors. The question in regard to the payment of church officers came before the town-oQuncil at onetime, and we decidedly objected to deduction on account of church officers. 4434. From what fund are they paid ? — They must be paid from the seat-rents, I supposed 4435. When a collection ia made for the infirmary, for instance, do you get any propor- tion of it ? — No, it is ordered by the town-council. We claim just the ordinary collections. I may state that the parish of St George entered into a commutation with us. We took an average of five years' collections, and agreed to take so much a quarter as a proportion for five years ; and if they collected any more, they apply it to the poor of their own parish. 443fi. Is this done in any other parish ? — It is done in another, I forget which. The bargain with St George's church is now over, and we get the ordinary collections. 4437. You have mentioned that when a collection is made for the infirmary, no part of it goes to the charity workhouse, — when a collection is made, ordered by the presbytery for a special purpose, do you get any part of it, or does it go to the purpose for which it was made ?— rWe always get the ordinary collection. 4438. In point of fact, does there ever take place any dispute between the minister and managers in reference to the collections drawn ?— None. We have claimed collections from thfi quoad sacra churches. 4439. Lately ? — Yes, — the matter has been before the managers for a couple of years. 444Q. Have they been paid to you ? — No, they have been refused. 4441. Have you token legal steps for the purpose of obtaining them ? — I am not aware that any have been taken. According to the constitution of the house, we shovdd get the collections from the Episcopalian churches ; but we do not get them. 4442. If you have any suggestion to make in addition to the evidence you have already given, we shall be glad to hear you ? — If it be allowable I shall make a statement in regard to the debt on the charity workhouse, which has been a bone of contention. We have been placed in difficulties, so much so that we have on one or two occasions offered to resign altogether. For instance, we make up our annual estimates, and go to the to'\vn-council. We say that the annual assessment requires to be six, or six and a half, or seven per cent. ; and we have generally added the deficiency of tlie former year to our estimate ; but we have been uniformly refused more than six per cent. 4443. On what ground have they refused you ? — They have generally told us that six per cent, is enough, and they won't give us more ; and in consequence the debt has accumidated to a large amount. And there is a serious question here, whether the managers or the town- council are the pai-ties responsible. The opinion of counsel has been taken to ascertain which of the parties is responsible, and it has been given in favour of the managers of the charity workhouse, they haying administered properiy, and the to«Ti-council ha\-ing refused what was necessary. 4444. Did they object to the -deficiency of past years being laid on the current year? — - Yes. 4445. Is the debt still accumulating ? — It is accumulating. The managers do not borro\f money now ^t all. They made jip theii- minds, that if the towuKsouncil does i^ot suf^y E^tammatioiis. Mr A. Thomson. 24 March 184». 254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, them with the means, they will turn the people out, and lock the doors. The managers >. r^, now will not borrow one shilling, because the town-council refuse to make good the Mr A. llionison. ^ (• • *" ° 24 March 11)43. defaciency. 4446. You are therefore limited in your expenditure by this refusal on the part of the town-councU ? — Yes. 4447. Would it be desirable to make an alteration in the law, to the effect that the power of fixing the assessments should be confined to those who distribute the poor funds ? — I do think that would be the better way. I mean those who distribute the poor fund to have the power of fixing the assessment. If the managers make up an estimate that six and a half or seven per cent, is necessary, the magistrates should be bound to give it. If there be any surplus at the end of one year, wc deduct it from the estimate of the next year. We report that we have so much over, and we ask them how we are to apply this surplus ; they may order us to dispose of it as they please. 4448. Have you any other suggestions to make ? — When the cholera was in Edinburgh in 1832, a considerable addition to the debt was contracted that year. We went to the town-council asking eight per cent, for the support of the poor for next year, as also adding the deficiency of the former year ; and the town-council refused to give it to us. In this way we were left in debt. 4449. There was no more assessment the cholera year than previously ?-^No. 4450. How long has the assessment been six per cent. ? — ^I covdd not say the time. I think from 1830 or 1831. 4451. When did the debt first begin? — It began before the cholera. 4452. Can you send us a note of how the debt began, and how it accumidated from year to year ? — ^Yes. When the order for the assessment came fi'om the town-council fixing it at six per cent., this was short of the sum we craved in our estimate ; we always received it under protest. I merely state this for the purpose of showing that, on the part of the managers, they have discharged their duty to the best of their judgment. If we are pinched for funds, it is the refusing us the assessment required that is the cause of it. We have a surplus on hand at present of between three and four thousand pounds. I must state that the managers have used the utmost economy ; and perhaps they have carried it too far. This surplus, in this way, has arisen, and we have asked the magistrates what we are to do with it, — whether to place it to the payment of the debt or othenvise. They have declined as yet to give us any answer. A question with them was started by a gentleman of the law, a member of that town-council, who gave it as his opinion, that it is illegal to assess for bygone debt. 4453. But a considerable portion of that debt was contracted owing to the town-council not giving a sufficient sum for the ciurent year ? — Yes. 4454. So that in pleading that, they are taking advantage of their own wrong to a certain extent ? — I think so. Perhaps you will allow me to state in regard to the administration of the funds for the poor, that this has been done with great impartiality. There is no sectarian character in the management. It is composed of churchmen, dissenters, and men of all different sects ; and when the case of any poor person comes to be investigated, it is con- ducted with the greatest impartiality ; there is no difference whether they belong to the Established church, to the dissenting church, or to any other body. 4455. Supposing the poor's fuads were intnisted to kirk-sessions, would there be equal impartiality ? — I think the kirk-sessions would not manage so well ; and my reason for thinking so is this, — it was proposed that a portion of the outdoor poor shoiUd be put under the charge of the kirk-sessions. The managers could have no objections if the kirk- ' sessions would agree to take charge of the poor. A meeting took place in the council chamber ; there were deputations from all the kirk-sessions in Edinburgh present to con- sider this proposal. There were present also a deputation from the charity workhouse ; but we had no occasion to open our mouths on the subject, because the members of the different kirk-sessions began to discuss the matter themselves ; and with one or two excep- tions, they would not agree to take the charge, and the proposal fell to the ground. 4456. From whom did the proposal come ? — From the kirk-sessions, or from managers representing them ; and they themselves refused to have anything to do with the charge. 4457. In what year was that ? — I tliink in 1834. 4458. The dissenters were not consulted on that occasion ? — No ; the dissenters do not give their church door collections to the charity workhouse. 4459. But at that meeting the dissenters were not considted ? — No ; they had no cause to be consulted ; they were not parties. 4460. You said applications were made by the kirk-sessions ? By what number of them ? — The proposal came to the managers of the charity work fi-om the kirk-sessions, or through managers connected with them. 4461. From what number of kirk-sessions ? — I do not know how many ; but I know * there was a deputation from every kirk-session in the town. 4462. Making this request ? — To consider on this request ; I cannot sjiy how manymade it. 4463. Can you not say what number originally made the request ? — I cannot say. 4464. Do you mean to say, that those who originally made the request were making it as individuals, or were they sent there as delegates from particidar kirk-sessions who nad approved of such a thing ? — Yes, they were sent as delegates. 4465. When the proposal was made, there were individuals amongst the managers who stated that certain kirk-sessions ■washed this done ? — Yes. 4466. ^\'^lat was the reason they did not agree among themselves? — The reason stated by tliem was, that they did not see how they could possibly overtake it. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 255 4467. There were some of the kirk-sessions who considered that they were, and others Exam inat ions, that they were not, able to overtake it ? — Yes ; but the great bulk of them refused. ~~ — 4468. Supposing the ministers of Edinburgh were able to get a sufficient number of 24 lil;vrch*1843! elders and deacons to administer the poor's funds, would it be a desirable way to administer them ? — No, for this reason ; in the West Kirk parish there are 300 managers, each of them appointed to a particular district to examine into the state of the poor under their charge ; and, from all I can learn, the duty is not so efficiently done as it is in the city by the charity workhouse. 4469. But my oljservations refer to city parishes, and not to so great a parish as St Cuthbert's. Do you think the funds of the poor would be well administered by kirk-sessions, with a sufficient number of elders and deacons ? — I would fear it very much. 4470. Are you aware that such an experiment is now in progress in St John's parish, Mr Outhrie's ? — Yes ; I am led to believe that they are exerting themselves much, which is a very proper thing. I think it of great importance that kirk-sessions should look into the state of the poor, but I doubt if they would be proper administrators of the poor's fund. 4471. Have you had occasion to look into the working of the system in St John's? — No. 4472. You do not know, then, whether the experiment is so far successfiil ? — No, I do not ; but I have an impression that the poor's fund would not be well administered by kirk- sessions. Every one who has had any experience, knows that the management of the poor is one of the most difficult things that a man can undertake, — there are so many attempts at imposition. A man may be induced by his feelings to give charity in a very improper manner. It requires people who are in the every-day habit of attending to such matters, to administer the fund properly. The kirk-sessions would do well to inquire into the state of the poor, and give information to the charity workhouse. 4473. But do you not think there is more danger of imposition on the one hand, and lavish expenditure on the other, when the inquiiy is made by a single inspector, than there would be if conducted by individuals who had districts assigned to them ? — I approve of kirk-sessions making inquiry into the state of the poor; but I have a strong impression that the funds would not be well administered by them. 4474. But, contrasting the two systems, thiil of making inquiry by means of efficiently large kirk-sessions, and that of making inquiry by one or more inspectors who have the whole city under their charge, do you not think there is more risk of imposition on the one hand, and of lavish expenditure on the other, when it is conducted by one individual, than when conducted by many ? — I have an impression that the ex^ienditure would be more lavish under kirk-sessions than it is under the present system. 4475. Proceeding on the supposition that kirk-sessions are in the habit of making those inquii-ies, and that the individuals in their districts are well known to the elders and deacons, do you not think that there would be less risk of imposition on the one hand, and of lavish expenditure on the other, when the inquiry was conducted by them, than by a public inspector ?— I think the elder would be more easily imposed upon than the inspector. 4476. What is your reason for so thinking? — He is in the habit of making the inquiries, and he gets into all the secrets of their living. 4477. Suppose both in the habit, and suppose the elders and deacons visiting their districts from week to week, do you not think the latter would be the fittest for the duty ? — I doubt it. 4478. Would it not be the duty of the ciders frequently to pray with the poor? — De- cidedly. Every poor person should be visited ; but I speak merely in regard to the distri- bution of the funds. I think it the bounden duty of every elder to visit the poor in his dis- trict, and to pray with them, and endeavour to get them assistance either by private or public charity ; but I talk of the administration of the public funds only. 4479. By the visits of the elders, does he not become acquainted with the particular circumstances of each family ? — He does ; but an elder would be induced to give money more from feeling than necessity. 4480. You think the expenditiu-e would be more lavish by the elder? — Yes, that is my impression. 4481. Do you not think that the kirk-session must exercise a beneficial moral influence by constantly visiting those individuals, — taking care of their children, and praying with them, even although they had nothing to do with the money ? — That is my impression ; and they are assiduous in doing so at present. 4482. You are aware that there are deacons who are distinct from the elders, and do not exercise these spiritual duties ? — -Yes. 4483. Might they not be efficiently employed in administering the funds of the poor ? — They might be efficiently employed ; but still I think the expenditure would be more lavish. 4484. Do you know, in point of fact, that the expenditure has been more lavish in the case of St John's pai-ish ? — No. I know I could no more manage the poor, as a paymaster, than I could do anything. I think I would give my money very foolishly. 4485. Have you acted in that capacity? — Yes ; I happen to be an elder. 4486. Supposing the system of deacons, who had nothing to do with spiritual matters, would not their superintendence merely resolve into voluntary agency to see the poor ?^ Yes. 4487. Your objections apply both to the system of deacons administering the fund, and to the elders' administration of it ? — Yes. I have often thought, that if the elders of every parish, or the deacons, were to make out a complete list of those who required assistance, and hand it to the managers of the charity workhouse, they would do a great service to the m mXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr A. Thomson. 24 March J 843. poor, and to the managers ; but their ca«es would be better decided in the charitj workhouse than by the deacons or elders. 4488. Do you ground that opinion on the conviction that the duties are more efficiently discharged by paid inspectoi-s than by voluntary agents ?^Yes ; but they woidd be all the better of information fi'om deacons and elders. It would be proper in them to hand in lists of their poor, and no doubt tlicy would receive consideration ; but to give them the adminis- tration of the funds, the expenditure would, I apprehend, be much more lavish. 4489. Do you know whether, in the West Church parish, the expenditure for the relief of the poor is greater, in proportion to the population, than the expenditure in the city, or less ? — Some of the managers of oiu- charity workhouse belong to the West Church ; and we were often twitted by them, that in the West Church they managed their poor better, and kept them cheaper than we did ours. We entered into a comparison, and found that though we had a more expensive management, that we kept our poor by a few shillings a head less than they did theirs. 4490. Do you not think it would make the elder more acceptable as a spiritual officer, when he could administer to the necessities of the poor ?^-I must admit that this would be an advantage. 4491. By taking an interest in their temporal concerns, would he not find the way more readily to the heart ? — Yes. 4492. You would not object to the elders befriending the poor, and giving them private charity ? — No. I speak merely in regard to the expenditure of the public fund. I would be doubtful of the residt, if the public money were put into their hands in cities ; in country parishes it is different. I approve highly of the visitation of the elders j but what I object to is, the committing to them the administration of the fund. 4493. Do you not think, that the more unfavourably city parishes are situated in regard to their temporal and spiritual condition, there is a greater necessity to have a staff of elders to attend to their temporal and spiritual wants? — I have no objections to their giving as much private charity as they can afford. 4494. Might not the expense of maintaining the poor in Edinburgh be ultimately consi- derably diminished, if you could elevate the habits of the poor, making them more provi- dent, careful, and industrious ? — Yes, the expense might be greatly decreased in that way. I beg to say, that I think the poor are badly supplied with water ; it would be a great advantage if they were better supplied. At the time of the cholera, when the town was visited, the want of a sufficient supply was evident. The whole city could have been visited then in two hours, from the efficiency of the staff employed for this pui-pose. We enjoined cleanliness to them as a most important thing. The poor are not sufficiently supphcd with water to clean their houses. Some of the pubhc wells have been suppressed, others of them not situated so conveniently as they ought to be, the water is frequently off, and the poor, having only very small vessels in their houses for holding a supply, have not a sufficiency of water for the purposes of health and cleanliness. Every one knows that cleanliness is one of those habits which should be enjoined on the poor, and which the elders and deacons should see to as far at they can. , 4495. Adverting to a question put before, you are of opinion that any system that woidd tend to elevate the habits of the poor, and render them more industrious and provident, would ultimately effect a saving ? — Yes. 4496. With reference to the system now existing, are you of opinion that it has a ten- dency to improve the habits of the poor ? — With regard to the poor in the house, and in the children's hospital, I tliink it has ; but I do not think it has any effect on the moral habits of the outdoor poor. 4497. If a system could be devised that would combine the administration of the poor funds with the elevating the habits of the poor, impressing on them industrious and sober habits, would not that be a great improvement in your estimation ? — Yes. 4498. K there were a sufficient staff of elders and deacons, and sujjposing that their per- manency could be guaranteed ', and if, while on their inspection, they were to attend to the condition of the poor, and their various wants, and report to the kirk-session in regard to their habits and character, might not a favourable impression be produced on the poorer classes inj this way ? — Decidedly; this woidd be of great importance, 4499. I am not supposing that the individual elder or deacon is to administer the poor fiinds according to his own discretion ; but that the case of the poor is to be reported to the kirk-session, their circumstances looked mto, and the amount of charity given is to be deter- mined by the board, if this system could be rendered permanent, are you of opinion that its tendency would ultimately diminish the expenditiu-e, and also render the circumstances of the poor more favourable, and, in short, elevate their whole moral character ? — I do not know that it would have a tendency to lessen the expenditure,— I think it would rather increase it ; but in every other respect it would be excellent. There was a feeling, when the proposal of the kirk-sessions, which I mentioned, was made to the managers of the charity workhouse, that if they would take the management of their poor, and receive the assessment for that pur pose, I think the managers of the charity workhouse were disposed to let it have a fair trial. 4500. If they were to take the trouble of the management, you say there would be no backwardness on the part of the managers to give it a fair trial ? — No ; and then it might be proved, by giving it a fair trial, whether the present or the proposed system was the better. 4501. If the kirk-sessions would imdertake the management, you tlnnk the system should have a fair trial ?^Ye8, provided it had in it no sectarian character. 4502. In regard to the working of the system, would you not apprehend considerable dif Acuity with dissenters ? — I should not suppose so. Objections would only be made by POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 257 dissenters, if they found that the poor under their charge were not receising the support to wliich the poor law entitled them. 4503. But recurring to the system, how do you think the plan would work to allow the dissenting clergy and their ku-k-sessions to take charge of their own poor, and administer aliment to them, subject, of course, as well aa the kirk-sessions of the Established church, to the review of a board, of which I am now to speak ?--! may state that the dissenters now take charge of their own poor — I do not say to the extent of supporting them ; but they administer charity to them as far as their funds enable them. The dissenters have no power, in the meantime, of obtaining any of the funds from the assessment, on the recommemlation of their kirk-sessions. 450-i. While I would give the kirk-sessions of the Establisliment the charge of the whole of their poor, on the other hand, I would give the kirk-sessions of the dissenters the adminis- tration of their poor, leaving the kirk-sessions of both to draw on the common fund of assess- ment according to their various wants, and having the administration of each subject to annual review. If such a system were ado])ted, do you think it would work well ? — I have a strong impression, that if the poor generally belonging to both are to be 8uj)plied with the means of subsistence, the administration would be better by a board, composed of both parties, and in which there was no feeling of sectarianism, the poor would be more faii'ly dealt ^nth, than in the way you propose. 4505. j\Iy idea was to exclude the operation of sectarianism altogether, by leaving the poor to be alimented through their own spiritual office-bearers, Now, would not the continued efficiency of such a sj'stem be provided for in this manner, if there were a board for the im[)()sition of the assessment, to which board the kirk-sessions, both of the Establishment and of the dissenters, should have to rejiort annually as to the administration of the funds ; so that the whole expenditure for Scotland should couie under the eye of the public every year? — No doubt the report woidd be got up very distinctly ; but in regard to the smii of money paid out, I fear it would exceed our expectation. 450(3. Do you not tliink that the various denominations of christians would exercise a wholesome moral superintendence the one over the other ? — I think they would to a certain extent. I have only to fear that they would he led away by their feelings to give more than should be just. 4507. Ai'c you aware that it is the opinion of some, that the sum given to the poor is very inadequate ? — Yes ; and I believe that sincerely. The allowance to the poor is too small, and I believe the managers of the charity workhouse have economised too much, with the view of relieving the establishment of debt. 4508. Do you not think, that if kirk-sessions gave more, the increase woidd be properly made ? — ^They would give more no doubt ; but I have an impression, that they would give too much in many cases, I should like to see the provision for the poor more liberal than hitherto. I think it is the duty of kirk-scssions to make proper returns of all the poor within their bounds. 4509. The question comes to be, whether you would entrust the kirk-sessions with the money for distribution, or would you distribute it as at present ? — You are quite aware that there are two elders from every kirk-session in town in the board, so that they are completely represented in the charity workhouse ; and they have an opportunity of bringing up cases within their bounds if they choose. 4510. When you say that tile allowance is too small at present, do you consider it as the only income on which the poor have to depend, or do you consider it merely as a help to enable them, with other funds, to make up the means of subsistence ? — The allowances are not adequate to support the poor totally ; but the cases are always ]>articularly examined into, and inquiries are made if the applicant have any other sowcc of relief. 4511. But, taking into consideration that they have other sources, do you think that the allowance is short of what it ought to be ?— Yes. 4512. ^Vhat I understand you to apprehend as the great danger of kirk-sessions being entrusted A^ith the management of money, is their exercising too great a liberality ? — Yes, influenced no doubt by right feeling. 4513. Are you confirmed in this suspicion of the too great liberality of kirk-sessions by the working of the system in countiy parishes ? — No ; they are more liberal than we are ; but it is a different thing in a country parish where every body is known ; notwithstanding, I think they also give too little — the heritors of country parishes are generally elders, who, having the power to assess themselves, they, like our town-council, make the assessment too small. 4514. Supposing the system of kirk-sessions the best, if you covdd get elders and deacons to work, do you think you could calculate on a permanent system by indivi- duals city taking that duty ? — I fear very much you would not get individuals to under, take it. 4515. AVould it be proper to unite the parishes In Edinburgh in regard to settlement ?^- It would bo a difficult thing. I think, from the working, that the settlement of three years is bad ; because people come from all quarters when old and unable to work, and continvie to reside here three years, and obtain a settlement. The burdens of the city are in this way greatly increased. If we had more power in sending them back to their own parishes, it woidd be a great relief. 4516. Supposing the residence extended, would there then be any objection to uniting the parishes for settlement ?— ^I think so. If that could be managed, it woidd be all the better. If the administration were to be through kirk-sessions, the poor would soon find which session was the most liberal, and M'ould flock to that parish, 2L Examinations. Mr A. Thoinsoii, 24 March 1843. 258 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Mr A. Thomson. •24 March 1843. 4517. But if the adminifftratjon were in boards, and not in kirk-scssiong, what would be the result then ?— I Avould liave but one board, such as the charity \yorkhouse. 4518. You do not think it would be safe to have two boards ? — I do not. 4519. Have you the power of sending paupers to Ireland ? — Yes, we send them to Ire- land. I mean, we sometimes give subsisting money. 4520. And to ICngland ? — Yes, anyAvliere, when we find out where they come from. The parishes from whence they come are written to ; and we give them the means of supporting themselves on their way to thoir respective parishes, We do not remove them in custody, but give them the means of removal. Av e keep a note of the parishes, the paupers fi-om whicli we have so supplied, and charge the parishes, We keep no note against the Irish. 4521. Keeping accounts against the parishes is confined to Scotland ?— Yes, KeT. John Sym. i^ev. John Spn, Examined '.-~ 4522. You are minister of the Old Grej^friars ?— Yes, 4523. You are accustomed to visit the poor of your parish ? — Yes. 4524. You have some of the poorest population of Fdinburgh in yoiu" parish ? — Yes, 4525. Do you find people of very difi^erent habits amongst them ? — Yes. 4526. Do you find, among persons having the same means of income, that some support themselves in a more creditable way than others ? — Yes ; I find some, having small incomes, support themselves in a more creditable way than others who have greater incomes, 4527. Have you any marked instances of this that you can state ? — I coidd, I daresay, state some instances ; but unless I were absolutely certain of the income, I should not like to speak decidedly. Many of them beg, and get money in ways I do not know, 4528. Be good enough to state some instances to the best of your knowledge ? — There is the case of Mrs F , who has a small allowance from the parish of Greenlaw in Berwick- sliire ; I forget how much. She works in the house of industry, knitting stockings, I be- lieve, but she makes very little in this way. This woman lives in a ^erv creditable and respectable way. There is the case of a Mrs S in the same land, who has an allowance from Glasgow' of Is, 6d. a week, I think. Her only other income is derived in this way : — She had a daughter, a very respectable person, a member of the Methodist congregation, who died about two years ago. The clergyman whom she attended was so much struck with her piety that he wrote a short memoir of her. INIrs S sells this. An edition of 500 was at first thrown off. From the savings she made out of that, and a little assistance, another edition of 1000 was thrown off; She has sold nearly all these ; and the other day she put 41. into my hands with a view to get a third edition. This woman, though in great poverty, lives in a most comfortable and respectable way. There is the case of the man G . You saw the way in which he lives, the other day. There is the case of a man B , a widower with two young children, who lives next door to him ; his income I cannot precisely state. He occupies himself in caiTj'ing coals, and it is not easy to estimate what he makes. His earnings, however, I have no doubt, are greater than those of his neighbour next door ; but he lives in a wretched condition indeed, and drinks a great deal. Almost all the people in the same stair have a larger income than G— , and not one of them lives in so ci'eclit- able a way. There is also the case of a man T . He was, a few years ago, a man of improvident habits and disreputable character. Both he and his wife were addicted to in- temperance ; and, in a state of intoxication, she set fire to herself and was burned to death. T was very much impi'cssed by this event ; and in consequence of the attention paid to him very much by the city missionary, he came under serious impressions, and now he is a constant attender of the church, and a member. He supports himself and child by going about and selling tin articles, Avhich are also made by himself, He lives in a respectable way, and gets no assistance from any quarter. 4529. You showed us the other day a house where all the inhabitants lived in a respectable way, — how many families are in that land ? — Eight families. 4530. Are they all persons of small income ? — Yes ; but variable. 4531. Do they all live in a creditable manner? — In a most respectable manner. 4532. Are any of these people in the receipt of aid from the poor's funds ? — Yes, several of them. I could mention others who receive from the poor's frind, and live respectably. 4533. What is the amount of aid they get ? — Four shillings in six weeks. 4534. Have they other means of subsistence ? — Yes. There is the case of a Mrs. I). She lives respectably, — she goes about selling bowls. 4535. Are you acquainted with any of them who are now liraig respectably, who were fonnerly of bad habits ? — Yes, Mrs D. and the man T, are instances; also Mrs M., who some years ago was in the greatest wretchedness, though she had a pension of 20/. or 25/. per annum. She was exceedingly intemperate — but a few years ago she gave up drinking, and since then she has paid a great deal of debt, and provided herself with good clothing. She i> constant in her attendance at chiu-ch, and is a communicant. She has been learning to read, 4536. And if care were taken of others who live discreditably, they might come to live in the same way that G., D., and T. do? — Yes. 4537. From the comparison of these diftc^rent classes of individuals living the one in com- fort, and the other in discomfort, do you conclude that the moral habits of individuals have a ixreat uifluence on their comforts as w-ell as their circumstances ? — ^No douljt of it. POOR LAW INQUIRY CO^BIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 259 4538. Have _you no doubt that raising the moral habits of the younger part of the present generation would very much tend to improve their worldly cii-cumstances ? — I have no doubt on the subject ; but at the same time, I do not think that mere intellectual education is enough. 4539. But intellectual education accompanied by good, serious instruction, and proper precautions against the children mixing with bad companions ? — Yes. 4540. Are the Ileriot schools and the other charitable schools sufficient to supply the whole of Edinburgh at the present time ? — Not sufficient at present. 4541. Woidd it be possible to get a return from the clergymen in regai-d to the number of children receiving education, and the number not receivmg education in the different parishes ? — It would be quite possible to get such a return. 4542. When all the Ileriot schools are in operation, will they nearly supply sufficient accommodation for all the poor children ? — As I am not aware of the numbers of poor children in the city who would require to be provided for, I cannot say whether all the Heriot schools, when erected, will or will not be sufficient. 4543. Is there a disposition among your paiisliioners to send their children to school, provided there was accommodation for them ? — There is not a very strong disposition to do so, and slight excuses are made for taking their children from school. The poorest people do not attribute such importance to education as to make an effort to provide it for their cliildren. When half educated, they put them to some employment so as to do something for themselves. 4544. Have the poor classes a difficulty In sending their children to school from not having the proper means of sustaining them ? I mean to say, ai"e they so much oppressed as not to be able to provide them witii proper clothing ? — That applies to a certain degree ; but not much. Wlien they are sent, they are often sent in a very ragged and wretched state. This answer does not apply to the Heriot schools. The children who go to these schools are tolerably well clothed ; but it applies to my own parish school, into Mhich they are received in any condition. 4545. Do you think if a school were provided where the children could be kept in charge of masters from morning tiU the afternoon, and one meal in the day given to them, that that woidd succeed in facilitating the insti-uction of the children ? — ^The idea is quite new to me ; but I think it woidd. The childi'en go to school in the forenoon ; in the interval they return home, and are frequently detained from school in the afternoon. If they were provided with a meal, and kept the whole day, no doubt they would be much more regular in their attendance, and much better educated than they now are. 454G. Do you think that the means over and above tliat received from the charity work- house, possessed by those who live in a creditable manner, is greater than the means of those other persons who live in a discreditable way ? — Certainly not. 4547. Then the state of comfort depends fully as much on the moral state of the party as on the means of living ? — Yes ; there ai-c persons who would never be in comfort what- ever money they were to get. 4548. Do you know a woman of the name of S. in your parish ? — Slightly ; she is not now in my parish. 4549. Is she a person capable of taking care of what may be given her? — I think not. 4550. Would an increase of allowance make her comfortable ?— I am afraid not. When I say that I fear no additional allowance would make her comfortable, I mean an allowance in money. 4551. From the observations you have made, what do you think may be the smallest amount of income in which a person of good conduct — a single person — could subsist in your parish ? — It is not easy to answer that question. I know a young man, an apprentice to a printer for some years past, who keeps himself on 4s. a week, out of which he pays Is. 6d. for his lodging. Of com-sc he moves in a higher class than most of those of whom I have been speaking, but I do not think it is easy for any of them to live creditably on less. 4552. Does the ai)prentice furnish his own clothing ? — Not altogether ; he sometimes gets a httle clothing. He lives on two meals in the day. 4553. Wiat does the man G. make ? — I do not know precisely, — he works as a shoe- maker ; but taking the whole of his income togethei', I should think it does not exceed 4s. to 6s. a week. 4554. Do you think that the producing of an alteration in the habits and religious feelings of the people, produces also an alteration in their state of comfort and cleanliness ? — I have no doubt of it. 4555. You woidd approve of any system that would bring the elders and deacons in con- tact with them ? — Yes ; I have a strong conviction that without this very little would be done. 4556. Do you think that more immediate intercourse with the lower orders would raise their moral feelings ? — Yes. 4557. You have said that you know persons who, with small incomes, support themselves more creditably than those who have larger ones — do you ascribe the_ discreditable st.ate of those who have larger incomes to the same or different causes ?— It is sometimes owing to slovenHness and thriftlessness ; combined with those, it is a good deal owing to dissipated habits. 4558. To which of the two causes would you ascribe the greater amount of discreditable- ness ? — To drunkenness ; it increases the other causes. 4559. Would you ascribe it, in some instances, to a want of economy ? — Yes; some people can make their money go fai-ther than others. ExaminatioiiB. Rev. John Syui. 84 Marcli 1 84:i. 260 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TflE Kxaniinations. Rev. John Sym. ■24 AUrch 1843. 4560. Supposing the amount of allowance were largely increased, would that add materi- ally to the comforts of the inferior classes of the poor you have mentioned, or the contrary ? — It would add to the comforts of many. At the same time, it would make many of them more dissipated. 4561. What would you sny was the best mode of making head against the pauperism that exists in the country at the ])rcsent time? — The first and main thing is inspection — a thorough knowledge of each individual case by itself. Until that is accomplished, very little good, comparatively speaking, can be done. 4562. Is the best wny of accomjilishing that the plan of elders and deacons visiting? — So far as I know, it is the best. By having small districts, they would come to know the cii- cumstances and habits of the people more thoroughly than they could be known in any other way. The temporal condition of the poor depends, in a great measure, upon their moral and religious character ; and the elders ivnd deacons confemug together on any pai-ticidar case, would be able to ascertain and apply, better than a paid inspector, the kind of remedy that was best fitted to cure the evil. 4563. Have any instances come under your own observation of imposition being practised on the paid inspector on the one hand, or on the other, in which the inspector, without any wrong feeling, has given a wrong report, and been the cause of an inadequate allowance being made to poor persons ? — I am not aware of the inspector being imposed upon ; and I am not able to say that the inspector has given wrong reports in regard to any person. My inter- course with the charity workhoiise and their inspector is in this way ; I report a case to them, telling them what I Icnow of it, and then leave them to deal with it as they see fit. I have no doubt that in many cases too small an allowance is given ; and I have applied again and again to the workhouse for an increased allowance. ]\Iuch depends on the cha- racter of the pauper in regard to sufficiency of the allowance. If a person is of good character, and fit to be intrusted with money, I woidd say that the allowance is in almost every case insufficient. I will give you an example of this. There is the case of Mrs B., who belongs to the West Kirk workhouse. She lives in my parish, but her husband's claim was on the West Kirk parish. He died about two years ago, and left her with six children, one of them at the breast, and the eldest only twelve or thirteen years of age. This woman got lOs. a month. She was totally unable to supjiort herself by any kind of work. She could not maintain herself and her children on that pittance ; and it had to be supplemented in some other way. I state this to show how far short the legal allowance is. 4564. In such a case as that, are you of opinion, that the elders forming a connecting link between the rich and the poor would be able to supplement the legal allowance by private charity ? — I have little experience in regard to that. In Edinburgh the elders have no management of the poor's fimd. I can only say that the legal provision is far short of what the kirk-session, if intrusted with the care of the poor, would make up in some way or other. 4565. Do you not think, that the fact of such a family being under the eye of the elders or deacons of the parish would bring them within the beneficence of the rich ? — I have not the least doubt of that ; but the elders at present having no share in the management of the poor's funds, are not led to interest themselves in such cases as they would otherwise be. 4566. You are aware, that in Scotland it was never contemplated that the sole provision for the poor should be from the parochial funds ? — According to the present ])ractice, the allowance given is intentionally not sufficient. They say it is just an eke to help them on, but no means are taken to ascertain that they have any other provision. 4567. You have mentioned inspection as one of the means of making head against grow- ing pauperism in Scotland, could you state any other means of striking at the root of it ? — In connexion with that, the parochial system of Scotland, with a sufficient number of agents, and these godly and zealous men, is the best plan to meet the evil at its very source. This I conceive to be the best system ; but I can put no confidence in it imless the agents by whom it is wrought are under the iivfluence of vital religion. 4568. The parochial system, including religious and moral education? — Yes; schools and churches, and constant spiritual superintendence, and much intercoimje between the higher and lower classes, are necessary. 4569. You have been minister of a country parish ? — Yes. 4570. Are you of opinion, that the system as it exists in country parishes is sufficient ?- - The country parish to which I belonged is on the border of England. When I went there there was no ecclcsiq.stical office-bearer, — no elder or deacon, — not even a schoolmaster. I was only a short time in this parish ; I can therefore say little aa to country parishes from personal experience. 4571. But you know the state of couptry parishes generally ? — Yes. 4572. Do you think it practicable to bring such a machinery to bear on to^ATi parishes, so aa to make them resemble country parishes ? — I think it is. 4573. Do you perceive any insuperable difficidties in the way ?— I see no insuperable dif- ficulties, 4574. Would there be a difficulty in getting people to take the charge I speak of? — I think not. 4575. Is there not a sufficient number of benevolent persons in congregations that would carty it through ? — I think so. 4576. And you think that it would work well, not only for the moral but for the spiritual condition of the poor ? — Yes ; and it would be for the benefit of the church generally. 4577. Would you contemj)late the abolition of assessment in Edinburgh? — I woxild con- template it in the way of making the other system supersede the necessity for it. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 261 ReT. John Sym, 24 March 1843. 4578. You believe that it would be practicable to maintain the poor in Edinburgh by ExaminaHons. contributions at the church doors ?— There might be a slight difficulty at first, as people are not now in the habit of contributing as much at the chm-ch doors as they would require to do, and as they would be disposed to do when they knew that the poor were dependent upon their contributions. There might be a difficidty in my parish at first ; but if. the whole funds from the city churches were slumped together, St George's and St Stephen's for instance, requiring comparatively little, the poor parishes would be considerably aided by the wealthy. But I do not consider there would be a very serious want even at first. 4579. ])o you think it is fair, that a certain class of the population should escape the burden of maintaining the poor ? — I do not know how fsir it is fair ; but to support the poor is a christian duty, and should be regarded as a privilege ratlicr than as a burden ; many other social duties might be represented as burdens lying unec^ually on those who discharge them well or ill. 4580. Do you think that the allowance at present to paupers is sufficient? — No; they have too little. The highest amount, I am told, that until recently any poor persons received, was 4s. in six weeks. They have now got in some cases a little more. 4581. Then what you stated before as to the diflferent modes in which paupers apply the money given to them, does not in any way affect the question as to the expediency of increasing the allowances in many cases ? — It does not affect my opinion as to the allowance in almost all cases being inadequate. People that misuse their money have a great de^J more than they get ft-om the workhouse. 4s. in six weeks is obviously insufficient to main^- tain any person. 4582. Would it not be unwise to raise generally the allowance by the charity workhouse, without taking precavitions again,st abuses? — If the public were persuaded that all the poor were sufficiently provided for by the charity workhouse, I would not anticipate much evil resulting from the general raising of the allo\vance. If the parochial system were in opera^ tion, and care taken that the allowances were properly laid out, no evil would result were the allowance to be raised in almost all cases. I think the allowances of the poor, generally speaking, are too small, 4583. That is the allowances from the charity workhouse ? — Yes. 4584. Are there not many among them that woidd spend the whole of their additional money in drink? — It is very possible they might; but, in speaking of raising the allowance, I mean that it should be done in a judicious way. I would not give a large allowance in money to all parties. It should be raised in a way to prevent abuses. 4585. How would you propose to prevent abuses by that class of persons ? — Instead of giving them money, I would give them provisions. 4586. Would the provisions not be sold for drink? — They might be given in such small quantities as to prevent that. 4587. Are you aware that there are shops where they purchase small pieces of bread, and such like ? — I do not know any such myself. But if provisions were given out in small quantities, say at meal times, little abuse, I think, would occur. 4588. Are you aware of any complete mode of giving increased allowance^ to persons who would spend them in an improper way, except by giving them relief in a workhouse ? — I do not know that you could tlioroughly prevent it; but I think a system might be devised which would, in a great measure, prevent it; and, in course of time, the people inight be brought, by moral means, into a better state, 4589. In regard to the system of voluntary inspection by elders, is it not at present a part of the Scotch parochial system, that elders ought to visit the poor, and pray with them, and give them spiritual assistance and consolation ? — It is. 4590. Could you not, without intrusting money to elders, restore your parochial system In efficiency to town parishes ? — They have no money intrusted to them at present. 4591. Could they not go and inspect the poor without money to relieve them? — It would not be wise to inquire narrowly into the circumstances of the poor, except with a view to their being relieved. Such inquiries, accompanied by spiritual advice, perhaps reproof, and followed by no temporal relief, would alienate rather than conciliate and improve the poor. 4592. Why should not the elders give money out of their own pockets to relieve their wants ? — I do not know how far they might be able to give. I dare say, in many cases, they do so. But the advantage of the system of deacons is to have the contributions coming from the chm-ch, yet dispensed by a different party from the one who gives spiritual admo- nition. 4593. If they happened to see cases of great distress, would they not be able, in conversa-r tion with friends at a dinner party, for instance, to raise funds from those who might con- sider it a christian privilege to give ? — To some extent they might, and no doubt cases of immediate and pressing want may be relieved in this way ; but the constant supply of the regidar poor could not. 4594. Have you anything to suggest to us in addition to what you have said? — No. 4595. You woidd not do away with assessments ingtantaneously, but bring your voluntary contributions gradually to supersede it ? — Yes. 4596. And in fact yoiir system pre-supposes an improvement in the wealthier as well as the lower classes ?— Unquestionably, Besides, I have a conviction, that many persons in the higlier classes of life would contribute larger sums in charity than they now do, and would imagine that in doing so they had discharged their duty to the poor. But that is not all that is requisite. Unless there is a cordial and kindly intercourse between the higher and lower classes, the duty is far from being discharged. 4597. Would you think it essential to your mode, that in the case of children of poor 262 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, parents, means should be taken to secure to them a good religious and moral education ? - „ "TT c Unquestionably. Any means taken to secure that is of the utmost importance. 24 Maich ia43.' 4598. Do you not think it -would produce a bad effect on a poor man's mind to disclose to you his distress, and then that you should retire without relieving Mm ? — Generally spoak- ing it woidd ; unless it were believed, that on retiring you meant to exert yourself in some way on his behalf. It woidd create a dislike to you — a feeling in the poor man's mind as if he had been ill used in having his poverty uselessly exposed. 4599. But a person woidd be anxious to give under such circumstances? — ^Yes, unques- tionably. In every case where there is uiunediate and extreme want, I cannot conceive that a man can discharge his duty unless he relieves it to the utmost of his power. 4600. Are there many elders in circumstances not able to relieve pressing wants ? — In towTis most of them have the means of getting something like an immediate supply for pressing wants. In towns they are generally of that rank and substance that they could supply the wants of a day. 4601. In regard to a question fonnerly put, I do not think your answer was fully brought out : Do not the poor people often excuse themselves putting their children to school, on the plea that they must employ them for eking out their livelihood ? — Yes. 4602. And, m point of fact, do they not send them out to beg? — I have no doubt of it; but I do not speak from personal knowledge. 4603. But would not the excuse be taken away from them if this system were pursued, that in cases where the kirk-session would recommend it, the children shoidd have in the middle of the day a comfortable meal ? — It would, I dai-e say, do away with the excuse to a great extent ; but there might be cases in which the childi-en would be sent to beg, as the;- might make more in that way. 4604. But when j'ou provided for the actual wants of the children, coidd you not force the parents to send them to school ?— I suppose you might. 4605. •^Vhat is the name of the country parisli in which you were minister ? — Sprouston. 4606. ^Yhilt was its population ? — From 1300 to 1400. 4607. Of what class did the people chiefly consist? — Chiefly hinds, farm-sen'ants, and a few hand-loom weavers and labom'ers. 4608. What description of weavers ? — They made linen, and earned it to the markets in the neighbourhood where it was sold. 4609. What is the amount of assessment in that parish ? — If I recollect rightly, about 200/. 4610. Do you recollect the average collections at the church door? — The collections have been under Is.; the average is probably 4s. or 5s. 4611. Are those collections and assessment together sufficient for the relief of the poor? — I thought that many of the poor were not sufficiently provided for. 4612. Would your proposed system for Edinburgh involve the building of new churches and the division of the AVest Kirk parish into districts ? — The West Kirk parish woidd require to be subdivided, and new chiu-ches built. It has a population of 70,000 or 80,000. 4613. Kirk-sessions might take the management of 2000? — In the New Town, ^\here comparatively there are few poor people, the parishes might have a larger number than the ]Kirishes in the Old Town. I think this number would be manageable with a sufficient kirk-scssion. 4614. But in the West Kirk parish, how many would you contemplate being under one pastor ? — I could not say \\hat number. The territorial extent of the parish must be taken into consideration in determining the number. 4615. Do you think it would be safe to have more than 5000 under the management of one pastor in the AVest Church parish ? — If respect be had to the management of the poor, it is not easy to state the projjcr number who might be under one kirk-session ; a great deal depending of course on the number of poor who require to be looked after. If the district were like my parish, 2000 is enough, 4616. From what funds would you propose to have churches built in the West Church parish ? — The churches might be built by volmitary subscription if thei'e was a prospect of their being endowed. 4617. Would there be any likelihood at all of the vacant teinds being sufficient to endow the new churches ? — I know so httle of the vacant teinds that I cannot say. 4618. Woidd it be necessaiy to go to government for money for this pui-pose ? — I should think it not uidikely that something woidd be required from government ; but I cannot answer the question definitely, as I do not know what are the resources of the parish. 4619. How would you deal with dissenters? — I have no doubt that dissenters would share this work along with ns, some of them at least. I do not, however, include Koman Catholics. 4620. Are there many Roman Catholics in Edinburgh ? — Yes, a great number. 4621. AYoidd not the difference in their religion make a difficidty in the working of your system ? — No. , 4622. IIow would you provide for them? — Out of the poor's funds ; out of the voluntary contributions at the church doors. 4623. AVoidd there be no heartburnings or ill feelings, or suspicions of pailiality in that way ? — All my experience leads mo to say that there woidd not ; but I do not speak posi- tively. In point of fact a great number of the people in my parish, whether they call them- selves Roman Catholics or Protestants, are, in reality, of no religion at all ; they seldom go to church or chapel, and know very little of any religion. I would not anticipate much heartburning, if the system were well managed. The exceUence of the system would so POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 203 well recommend itself, as soon to overcome any prejudices or jealousies that might arise at Examinatiom. lirst in regard to it, — — ■ 402 4. Have you anything farther to suggest?— The number of pawnbrokers' shops and 24^1 arch im' public houses is a great evil. I have no means of ascertaining the sum realized by the pawnbrokers ; but I have no doubt that the money spent upon whisky in my parish, would greatly more than provide for all the poor in it. James Reoch, Esq., Provost of Leith, Examined : — 4G2.5. You are provost of Leith ? — Yes. 4(!2(). Can you give us any information respecting a fund got up for the unemployed at Leith ? — There has been a fund for the unemployed raised by subscription since the month of July last. 4(i27. What was the amount subscribed? — About 3301. I think. 4628. To how many individuals weekly has it been distributed ? — Since the month of January we have employed about from 76 to 80 people, breaking stones, and gathering stones from the beach. 4629. And previously to January how many ? — Previously to January we did nothing ; but of the sum collected there were 75/., or about 801. which we were in debt, there having been a former expenditure for the poor of Leith, which had to be made up. We had there- fore about 240/. to dispose of. We recently got some collections at the churches ; they are not all come in yet. 4630. What are the precautions taken as to scrutiny ? — All the precaution that we could take was to ascertain that they belonged to the town. They stated that they were tradesmen out of employment, — carpenters, sailors, and others who could get no work. 4631. Whose duty was it to inspect the houses of these parties, and report ? — A com- mittee was appointed from the different kirk-sessions of Leith. The members of tliis com-^ mittee visited as far as they could, the houses of the persons applying, and the houses of their neighbours. Some they found who were imposing on them. However, generally, we have had between 70 and 80 of them since January. We also had a soup-kitchen, the expenses of which were paid out of the fund, 4632. But previously to any person being put on the list of the unemployed, was his house visited ? — We visited as far as we could. The whole of them were not found. The committee took a good deal on hearsay. 4633. Had you any schedule of questions which each applicant was required to fill up ? — No. 4634. Was the breaking of stones by piece-work, or by the day ? — We gave them 6d. a day. 463.5. Were they inspected in their work ? — Some of the better sort of them in- spected ; and the person who superintends the district of the road trustees, had the general inspection of them. A roll was called morning and evening, and indeed sometimes three times a day. 4636. The superintendence was to see that they were not idle? — Yes, it was generally left to some of their own body, those whom we thought trustworthy ; but the general superintendent was always going about. 4637. What is his salary? — 2s. 2d. a day ; he is a permanent man, not a pauper. 4638. Did you give relief to any able-bodied women? — No, we supplied them with soup. We had no way of getting work for them. 4()3'.>. You gave them relief from the soup-kitchen ? — Yes, we began it on the 31st of January. We supplied 640 families, and they got in proportion to the number of their families,— a pint of soup and a roll to each member of their families. 4640. An English or Scotch pint ? — English. 4641. Do you mean 640 families or individuals ? — 640 families ; and in that proportion we distributed nearly 2000 pints of soup, and a roll to each. 4642. Were these women ? — Generally women and children. 4643. Were many, or any, of these receiving parochial relief? — Yes. We made no dis- tinction ; all the paupers got it. 4644. Had you many single women without children ? — A good many. There might be about forty single women got soup, or fifty. 4t)45. In regard to the men, had you many applications which you were obliged to re- fu.se? — Yes; when we were satisfied that they did not belong to the town, we refused them. 4646. You employed none who had not obtained a settlement in Leith ? — No ; we did not employ them at the stones. We were a good deal led to do that from the manner in which our poor were treated by those having the charge of the works at Holyrood. Some of the best of them went up, and they were told that none were employed except those who had been employed at the Meadows, and that they must go back to Leith. Therefore we had no foreign aid. 4647. Had you many applications from persons whom you refused ? — No, not many. 4648. What funds have you on your hands now, including the collections made at the jchurch doors 1 — We may have about 150/. for carrying on the soup-kitchen, and employing \ese persons, Jas. Reoch, Esq. 2Gi MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ExHiiiinations. 4049. How much do you expend weekly !— Our soup kitchen, for two days in the week, Jas H „pi E Tuesdays and Saturdays, costs 14/. a week ; and breaking stones, from about 10/. to 121. a 24'Msrch 1843. week. 4650. Do you sell the stones ?-^We sell them to the road-trustees. 4(),')1. And the sum you received for them goes into the fund ^-.^ Yes. We receive very little for them. 46.^)2. Had you ever any relief fund previously to January last ? — We had what is called the Prince of Wales' Fund, — that is, instead of illuminating the town on the occasion of the birth of the prince, we applied the money that would have been expended in th^t way for supplying the poor with soup and coals. 46.53. Independently of that, had you ever one?— No. 46.54. Are you acquainted with the mode of life and habits of the poor — those who are at present on the list ? — Some of them are given to drunken habits ; others there ai'e who are worn out, and unable to work at their trades. 4G55. Would not the older class be entitled to parochial relief! — I think they would. 4656. In taking persons on your list, you had not made it a rule to exclude those entitled to parochial relief 2 — No. 4657. Are the majority of them mechanics, or common labourers? — Many of them, I think, are common labourers, — the majority of them. A number of them are decayed sail- ors, carpenters, tinsmiths, corkcutters, and various other trades. 4658. Do they all get Cd. a day, without discrimination ? — Yes. 4659. And without reference to the work they iol — We just keep them jogging on. 4660. Did their wives and families also get relief from the soup-kitchen ?-^Yes, if they chose to come. Indeed, I told them they might get soup. 4661. What number of unemployed persons may there be in Leith in ordinary times ? — Until within these eighteen months, we were never annoyed in any manner. They got organized in a most extraordinary way, in bodies. They were harangued and addressed by parties ; and they came to us in large bodies, in a way that I never saw before. 4662. Do you think that, in previous years, there might have been a certain number of unemployed ? — I dare say there might ; but they never made such an appearance as they did lately. They never became so conspicuous. Those who were quite destitute were always upheld, — the poor's fund seemed to satisfy them ; but lately they have become or- ganized in large bodies. 4663. And they demanded relief in a way which they had never done before ? — Yes. 4664. Have you any able-bodied sea-faring men employed 1 — There are some among them employed who, I dare say, might go to sea, but they cannot get ships they say. 4665. Are there any young able-bodied seamen among them ? — I do not think it. 4666. For how long a time were any of those now employed at the expense of the relief fund out of employment before they got this work .' — Some of them told me they had not been employed for three, four, and six months ; that they had sold every thing they had, and were in misery ; but I dare say they were exaggerating their distress. 4667. Were there any of them that had been in the way of having regular employment for a good while before they were taken on the fund ? — There were a good number who were employed on the shore as porters, — who applied to persons embarking or coming on shore to get their luggage to carry. 466S. Within the last eight or ten years, would a good many have been found demand- ing benefit from such a fund if you had it? — I do not know ; but of late they have been associating together, and \ye cannot get rid of them. Leith, 28arlsh assessed. Then if it occui's in country parishes, or if the administrators in town i)arishe3 were to allow this Indulgence in each of these, leaving the sessions to deal with cases as they arise, and saying we do not claim any part of your collections, and what we understand you to luidertake is to take the Avhole management of the new cases — a process might be set in opcratiou by which ultnuately all cases would come to be provided for out of the collections alone. 4685. Have you any reason to know whether the allowances you gave in St John's were on a higher or on a lower scale than that of the other parishes ? — I think, upon the whole, they were higher ; but the effect of the management was tliat there were fewer eases ; and 80 nmch fewer that, upon the whole, we were able to give larger allowances. We did not proceed so uniformly on a rigid system. We allowed the greatest latitude which the circum- stances of the case permitted, when it appeared to demand a large allowance, I think, in proportion to the number of paupers, our allowances were larger. 4686. I presume you aflbrded occasional relief to people in sickness, who ceased to be re- lieved on retiring to work ? — Yes, we did. 4687. I presume you never relieved any able-bodied people ? — Xo ; I don't think we ever did. There was at one time a 80U{)-kitchen got up ; this was at a time of very general dis- tress. There was a general soup-kitchen. It was no violation of our agreement with the managers if we sent poor })eople to the general kitchen. But we were anxious to preserve them from intercourse with the people they might meet there ; and we set up some little affair of our own. But we had no such thing as regular relief to able-bodied persons — there were no recorded allowances to them. 4688. Were you of opinion, that the allowances wliich you were enabled to give to people wholly Incapable of work were sufficient ?— Of themselves they formed but a very small jjor- tion of what was required for their complete comfort and relief; but our system j)rocceded very much upon the sufficiency of what may be called the natm-al resources, calling ours the artificial resources. Suppose a case occurred, then the first matter for inquiry was, coidd this case be helped by stimulating the industry of the applicant, — and everything was done in that way ; but in the next place, if that were not sufficient, the question was, had he rela- tives ? If he had, then the circumstances were represented to these relatives, and their dis- grace in allowing a person who was one of their own kindred to become a recipient of charity. That, no doubt, intercepted a number of cases. Then we made the case known to the nclgh- boiu-s ; and I have no doubt there was a great amount of i)revention effected by the immediate interposition of neighbours, 1 don't recollect the number of Instances to the contrary ; but we found the sufficiency of these expedients such that we seldom liad to go farther. There were not a dozen such instances, Over and above that, we sometimes applied to a rich acquaintance for cases which we wanted to stave oft' from the sessional fund ; but 1 would not say that in the residuary cases the allowance exceeded to any great extent those of other parishes, because what we wanted was to keep in play the means which nature had provided for the relief of the poor in the compassionate feelings of mankind — a j)revious and better mechanism than any that could be devised by human legislation, as keeping in healthful exercise those principles which ihe God of nature has imj)]anted In the Imman heart ; and by which you provide much better for those who are in want than can be done by any supple- mentary methods that can be instituted, 4689. Do you think, that in a large town where there ax'e many strangers from Ireland and the country, who have no friends, acquaintance, or relations, you would be capable of relieving them ?-^No doubt the Influx of strangers forms a very heavy addition upon the l)arochlal fund, in so much that one-third of our cases were Irish, In spite of that, we did not find that it overbore the system, At the same time I may be permitted to say, when inquiry is made as to the iua])pllcabillty of the same system in town and country, that It woidd mightily depend on the assimilation of the two, and the addition of the same facilities in town as in the country ; which would be given If the parochial system were more subdivided, and if, secondly, the rule of seat-letting were such as to allow a preference to parishioners for their respective churches. It is Inconceivablo what would be the beneficial effect ; It would euliance the influence of the parochial system in towns tenfold, when the session can count on a hearer in every house. Tliat would complete tlie thing. Give us ])arishes small enough, and such a rule of parochial seat-lotting, that the parochial comnmulty might be brought thoroughly under the influence of the minister on the Sabbath, and of the elders during the week. That would be of itself a ooin]>lcte solution of tiie problem. 461)0, Hava you considered the law wltii regard to legal settlements ? — I cannot say I have attended very minutelv to the subject. But I have the impression that the law is nearly as stringent as the law of England— at least in some respects, I certainly have an impression of that kind, And my chief apprehension when conducting the systeni in St John's, arose from a consciousness I had of great hostility being felt to tiie system; and I thought, perhaps a lawyer might be enlisted in opposition to us, and might have given us a ^reat deal of trouble, I feel it a happy escape that we were not involved in any sort of litigations con- nected witlrour cases. 4691, Do you consider the present system of law sufficient for relieving the poor in Scot- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 269 land, or do you tlilnk that any alteration should be made? — The truth is, I think there is too KxniiiiM»ti.>n«. much law already. I think a great improvcancnt would be to complete our parochial system 'jr?) V in Scotland, and leave the verdict of the kirk-session final. And then I think you would have 2/ llmX I'tii." a perfect practical security against any instance of starvation occurring anywhere in Scotland. 4692. Then, in extraordinary cases, sui^h as we witnessed lately in Paisley, you would meet them by extraordinary methods ? — AV'^hy, yes. But with regard to these extraordinary cases, I have this nmch to say, that I tliink the diflSculty of these is very much aggravated by proceeding to deal with them in too large aggregates. If there had been a thorough parochial system in Paisley, and the amount of distress had been divided among parishes, each having a separate and independent management of its own, then each, with the small fraction of cases which might have fallen to its share, would have found waj's and means of more easily providing for those cases. I feel, that if the mass of distress in Paisley, instead of being like a spectacle of such magnitude obtruded on the public eye, had been cut down into fragments, each of these fragments would have been found much more manageable than the accumulated distress. And experience con^•inces me that the parochial system is adequate for very extraordinary seasons. My first year in St John's ^^■as 1819-20, one of the worst years that Glasgow has had, when commercial distress and fiery political discontent combined their infiuences. It was the year of the battle of Ponnymuir, when the radicals were as rampant and unmanageable as they could be. And I think it the true inductive way of making one's-self acquainted with the working of the parochial system, to take a little slip of a parish, and see how it o])eriites there on a reduced scale. I remember — (I don't believe this has been mentioned in any of my ])rinted accounts on the subject) — I remember a little slip, containing a jiopiJation of between 400 and 500 people, at a time of very great distress. The name of the deacon of that district was Archibald Newbigging. I am sure he will recollect the circumstance. I said to him, I just want to know every extraordinary case of distress ; and the experiment I want to make in this small section of the parish, is to see for how much or how little I could carry them through the whole of this very extraordinary season, on my o-wn jirivate resources. I felt there was a pro- digious exaggeration when you looked at the thing in the bulk, and that one might face it all in a contiguous population of 400 or 500. I cannot be accurate as to the numbers, but we bore them through the whole distress, which was aggravated for several months. There was a great talk of hundreds out of work, and Mr Clelland reckoned the great number of 5000 looms as standing idle, which implied 5000 men out of employment. All the cases were met, and met with a moral and christian entertainment. It cost very little more than 20/. for the whole section ; which convinced me that, were the popidation fairly divided, and the parishes reduced to a proper size, (and none should have more than 2000,) the cases might be overtaken for a veiy small sum. Here was one part of Glasgow in which the thing was carried through ; and it was quite an experlmentum ci-ucis, for the section to which I refer was the very poorest jjart of the parish. Now the tiiith of this matter is not to be got at by a large body of managers placing themselves on an eminence, fi'om which they «an take a distant survey of the ■\\ hole field of (!(mtemplation. The truth is to be got at inductively, by taking a more limited view ; and if you find the s}'stem work well in one section, and if the whole aggregate can, by the apposition of other sections, be brought under a general system — call it the jxiroc-hial system — then I think one might cope with aU the difficulty of all the vicissitudes incident to the largest population. 4693. How long was the period of depression ? — It lasted, as far as I recollect, a whole winter. 4694. In what year? — In the first year of my parochial management. 4695. You never had a parish in Edmburgh ? — No ; I never had any connexion with a parish in Edinburgh. 4696. You came from Fife to Glasgow ? — Immediately from Fife to Ghisgow. , 4697. "What parish had you in Fife? — Kilmany, in the north of Fife. 4698. Did you manage the poor there entirely in the same way ? — Quite so ; it was a very simply managed affair there. 4699. No assessment ? — We had only 24/. a year of collections, and only 800 people. I might mention, as it throws light on the 7'ationale of the system — (I recollect I published a pamphlet on the subject in 1814) — that we had the people formed into a little parochial society for contributing to some benevolent object — I think the Bible Society ; a great out- cry was raised against us for taking a penny a week from people who had not much to spare ; and I published a pamphlet to show the influence of parochial associations on the temporal condition of the poor. My argument was that the system was a defence against pauperism, because, by elevating the humbler classes to the state of givers, you widened their distance from a descent into the humbler class of receivers, and increased their confidence in the effi- cacy of their own exertions to maintain themselves independently. And I happened, in the course of the argument, to state that the poor in Kilmany were supjiorted on collections amounting to 24/., while the popidation was about 800. Mr George Rose, ^^■ho was at one time Master of the Rolls (probably the father of the present Sir George, and who himself wrote at considerable length on pauperism) wrote to me, asking by what admirable manage- inent it was that I could possibly provide for the poor in such a pojjulation with so small a sum ; and I wrote back what I conceived to be the truth of the matter, that I was not the least conscious of any admirable management ; that I had jmt forth no strenuousncss in the matter, — and that the whole was accounted for by the reflex influence of our system on the habits of the people, who just accommodated their habits and wishes to their expectations. '1 hey knew that nothing was going ; and, in their own greater exertions, the greater care of relatives, and the vigorous operation of sympathy betwixt the poor and the poor, tliey found 270 AHNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. l>r T. Chalmers. 25 March liii'S. a compensation for a weekly allowance, and did better than with anything out of a public charity. 4700. Wliilc rou were engaged in your experiment in St John's, was it tried in any of the other parishes in (ilasgow? — It was tried in one parish — the Outer High Church parish, — and succeeded admirably. They told me they had 600/. in the bank, but the experiment was brought precipitately to a conclusion by the mere wiU of the session. It was not that the experiment failed, but that the exj)crimentcrs got tired. In Dr Smyth's parish they were getting on admirably. They had a large gum Avhich they made over to the town hos- pital, and lapsed into the former state of things. But there was one thing, I remember, which is quite in harmony with your question. I was called on, by the magistrates of Canongate, to expound my system to them. Tliis would have been an e.rperimentum cnicis, had they persevered in the experiment ; iind 1 stated to the managers of the charity workhouse there, that if they adopted it, they wovUd find the sufficiency of the collections for the new cases, and ultin>;itely for the whole paupers, when the old ones died off. I regret that I have mis- laid a most cheering document from Mr Miller, the clerk of tlie session (I don't know whe- ther he is alive), stating how triumphantly they were making progress ; so that they had the prospect of the charity workhouse dying a natviral death by the dying out of the old cases. All this went on, and suddenly it was brought to a termination. I called on Dr Buchanan, the minister, and he told me that the managers of the charity workhouse, fore- seeing the certain temiination of the system, had resolved to abandon it, and that finding tliey, in a very short time, would be deprived of the administration, had given it up. And the thing was brought to a sudden disruption by the whole administrators giving up the charge, but not by tlie failure of the experiment itself. My reason for mentioning this is to refer you to Sir John Sinclair's Appendix, or rather Analysis, of the Statistical Account of Scotland. He has a chapter on my process for managing the poor ; and he mentions that he had heard of its failure in the Canongate ; and he went and made inquiry on the spot, and found the very same account of the matter as tliat I now mention from Dr Buchanan, the minister, that the thing was going on most prosperously, but that it wfia brought by these officials to a sudden termination. 4701. Do you know how long it was m operation in the Canongate? — My memory does not serve me. 4702. What was the date of the experiment in the Canongate ? — It cannot be above a few years after- 18 19-20 ; and if you examine the sessional records you will probably find some details connected with the subject. A good deal of instruction might be gathered from their doings. 4703. How do you account for the managers of the charity workhouse acting so as to induce the members of the session to give up an experiment which was prospering ? — I do not know — it might be comj)etent for the managers to take the thing into their own hands. 4704. The abandonment must have been the voluntary act of the managers ? — Yes ; but it woiJd require also the concurrence and co-operation of the session perhaps. I cannot pre- tend to say more than that Sir John Sinclair's account agrees with that which 1 received from Dr Buchanan, 4705- The session did not find the duties too onerous ? — Not in the least. Dr Buchanan said the thing was going on most pr'osperously, and there was a moral certainty of its coming to a happy conclusion. 4706. In Glasgow was there any trouble from the reluctance of the kirk-session ? — I can only say that, at the time we were complimented for the strenuousness of our administration, we were lying on our oars. There was a great deal of initial trouble and inconvenience at first, for the poor exjjected great things from us. But a re-action took place. There was con- siderable trouble for several months, before we could make the people understand what the system was; and the refiex operation was that those who were conscious of any resources which covJd be detected, simply ceased to apply. The number of applications became, in a few months, five times less than under the old system. 4707. Would you not apprehend any practical difficulty in getting persons to undertake the duty in the session ? — I had always great practical difficulty in recruiting my eldership, but not my deacons. There was a recoil from the ecclesiastical character of eldei's, but I got as many deacons as I hked. 4708. But looking to the whole of Glasgow, would there be difficidty in finding deacons ? — No, I think not ; and especially after they had experienced the great facility of the opera- tion. As an instance, there was a person witli whom I had long argued on the subject ; he was quite inveterate in his a2>position ; I could make no imj)ression upon him. Then I said the only way of converting you, is to make you a deacon. He actually consented to become a deacon ; and I said I am confident yoiu* experience as a deacon will do more to convert you than any argumentation. He continued for a year and a half. He made a complaint to me at the end of that period ; — he said you promised me a great deal of experience, but I have had no experience at all, as I have not been aj)i)lied to. 1 told him that is the best of all expe- rience — it is the most valuable experience you coidd allege. 4709. Do you think, by subdividing the town into districts, you could make the system operate in large towns, as well as with additional endowments and churches ? — I would say it is not near so good a plan as independent parochial management. 4710. But those sections might be made apphcable to the territorial divisions of the town ? — I certainly think the two subjects are quite cognate, and that the true object would be to combine the economical and the moral. The optimism of the thing never can be arrived at till you have a system which shall bring the people under the voice of the minister on Sabbath. Infinitely far short of tliat there is an exceeding superiority in the paiochial POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 271 eystem over any system of assessment ; and, with regard to subdividing, without additional Kxauiinjitiong. churches, I have thus much to say, that the subject of my own experiment was a parish con- taining 12,000 people, and therefore I found upon an argumentum a fortiori. I say that it is a ^', ' • *;','i^\'^4o'' wrong state in a parish to have only one minister for so large a population. But 1 found this argument on my experience of the system, whicli was adopted in the parish of St John's, with a population of 12,000 ; that if with the instrumentality of deacons, the system could be made to work there, how much easier would it work where the population was divided among an adequate number of ministers with their deacons. 4711. You attach considerable importance to the superintendence of deacons? — I attach great unportance to it ; but I wish not to be misunderstood, because 1 don't think the rationale of the system very well understood. Wherever you superinduce Christianity, you stimulate and quicken into activity all the natural good principles — such as the compassion of the poor to the i>oor, and the affection of relatives towards each other. But even apart from Christianity, and trusting to the mere natural influence of these principles, I woidd infinitely rather leave the poor to the full influence of those principles, as they operate natu- rally, than I would have tliem intromitted with, distracted, and deranged, in the operation of a system of public charity. And, taking Constantinople — I don't know whether money is set apart there for the poor or not^but if you were to make the experiment in that city, in two sections, one on the natural, and the other on the artificial system, I venture to say, that, under the natural, there would be a sounder and healthier state of the peoiilc, than under the artificial. But that does not conflict with the undoubted tnith, that where Chris- tianity is introduced, you invigorate the operation of whatever is good in nature. 4712. Did you find difficulties with dissenters? — No: there were incidental cases. I thought, at the outset, that it would be well to come to an understanding with dissenters, but I found the whole so manageable that I felt independent of the dissenters. 4713. Suppose the parochial sj-stem extended to a large town, as in Glasgow, would it not be necessary to have some understanding with the dissenters there ? — It would be better if dissenters were to look after the poor of their own congregations. A good many do ; but I by no means mention an arrangement with them as indispensable. 4714. Of what class in life were the deacons? — Of all classes. Some gentlemen, wealthy merchants. Another, I recollect, was a journeyman ^\Tight, a common operative. 4715. By whom were they selected^by yourself? — By the elders; by the parochial court, which constitutes our session. 4716. Had you published your work on " The Christian and Civic Economy of Large Towns," previous to your exjieriment? — Why, no : that work did not commence tiU 1819, when I entered St John's; and it came out in quarterly numbers. 4717. AAHiile the experiment was going on? — While the experiment was going on. 4718. Had you previously published any tiling on the subject? — Only the pamphlet I have spoken of. 4719. But your opinion on the poor laws was perfectly known in Glasgow? — Perfectly ; and the main principles of the system I advocate are to be found in a pamphlet which I published in 1814. 4720. Did the deacons attend your church ? — Yes ; they were members of my own con- gregation generally, if not universally. 4721. Were they generally inhabitants of the parish, or were they from various parts of the city ? — -No ; they were from various parts of the city, and that was a very serious incon- venience. That Mr Newbigging whom I mentioned, was in a position which obviated every possible objection. He was in a state of juxtaposition with the people of the district which he had in charge, and he was merely a clerk in a merchant's houee. He had no great means of his own, and that was one of the best conducted districts in the parish. 4722. Did you ever allude, firom the pulpit, to the poor laws? — Yes, I have. I published a sermon on the subject. The text was, " It is more blessed to give than to receive." I first gave the direct lesson, then the indirect, which was a fair inference from the other. If I it is " more blessed to give than to receive," then it is less " blessed" to " receive" " than to give." 4723. Do you think the greater number of deacons held the same opinion as yourself, with regard to the management of the poor ? — We were very much of one mind on the subject. 4724. Supposing the staff of deacons to be composed of persons who held different opinions? — ^It would have paralysed their operations. I could not have had much confidence certainly, ! unless the deacons had held enlightened views on the subject. 4725. Then, in any jiarish the efficiency of a system of that kind would depend upon the , people who worked it, having what you call enlightened views ? — Yes, surely. At the same ■ time you place them in the midst of operations, where, if they remain a very few months, those views will either have an experimental confirmation, or an experimentiil refutation. • Now, I do not know a single instance where a deacon has not been more rivetted in his views after being a deacon than he was before. 4726. Did they relieve any bad characters ? — There was a vast deal of remonstrance before ; we gave in to relief for the undeserving. There are cases in the work I have published, where the effect was admirable. It added, no doubt, to the diflUculty of our management, that we were surrounded by parishes where a different style of treatment obtained — we were surrounded by sharpsighted, jealous observers. The principle on which we acted M'as this ; thoroughly to investigate every case, and the trouble of that thorough investigation was con)- pensated by the small number of applications. Then, let the allowance be such that you can hold up your face for it, if questioned by any of the surrounding parishes, and be ready to meet any complaint with any of those data — putting it to the objector, whether with these data, i 272 JIINIJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE lllE Examination;. Or T. rhaliners. 2S MnnU KU:). he would have given a larger allowance. I think in that way we perfectly succeeded In rising above all the exceptions in detail, made against our system in St Jolm's. 4727. But were there not cases of bad character among the undeserving poor repelled altogether ? — We certainly thought in such cases, that men should be left to feel their own weight. 4728. Take the case of the mother of an illegitimate child ? — Well, this case did occur ; and we iiad one course and one principle, that we should not go so far behind the other ])arishefi, as to have an outcry raised against us. There were several cases of that kind on our roll, and in the account of the operations in St John's, I show how much was expended for crime and inmiorality-^how much our yearly expense was increased by these — how much by institutional disease. I groimded on that another argument a fortiori. These cases of crime and institutional disease should be otherwise provided for, and then there would remain the fair natural jiauperism, which woidd fall very much if these other cases were subtracted. 4721). But is it not A\ithin your knowledge, that any of the deacons would not reheve a bad character, and that the mothers of illegitimate children were refused relief ? — I am not aware that there were any such cases. I have no doubt that the moral suasion of the deacons would be on the side of what was good and right ; and I have no doubt that their moral suasion often tended to refuse relief to such persons. 4730. AVould they refuse relief to the mother of an illegitimate child ? — I could not say. If the case were submitted to me as a private individual, and I saw that it was one of a pain- ful character, it would be very wrong in me as an individual to shut my bowels of compassion against that case ; but if you ask whether it would be right to organize a system of relief for such cases, that I think would be a great injury. 4731. But although you might show an unwillingness to give relief, as a safeguard against the encouragement of jtrostitution, would not that be better than leaving her to starve ? — In the first place, I don't think she would starve ; but, first, I think it extremely difficult to fix a point where security against the encouragement of vice could be held out to the public, with all the certainty of a legal and established system, that it does not operate injuriously in the way of temptation. There are some foot notes in my work on the " Christian and Civic Economy of Large Towns," which state some exceedingly instructive cases ; and I thought them all the better that they were referred to by the Bishop of London, in his speech in the House of Lords, on the poor law of England. There are some most remarkable instances. You had only to cross the boundary from England to Scotland. In Scotland there were no allowances to the mothers of illegitimate children — in England there were. The relative number in the respective parishes was exceedingly instructive. 4732. Did that refer to the old or to the new bastardy law of England ? — To the old, in 1817. 4733. Then it would not apply to the new ? — No, I am not acquainted with the new. On this subject, as I have said, the less law the better. I don't like to legalize bastards in any way. 4734. Are you personally acquainted with the situation of the poor in Edinburgh ? — Not very much. 4735. There is a certain quantity of evidence which tends to show that, according to the present system of management, there is a good deal of begging in Edinburgh — how would you propose to put down begging ? — I decline altogether to meddle with a matter so high for me, and that is the regulation of a whole town, or of a M'hole empire, by a system ; but I feel very confident iis to the right way of proceeding with sections, or small parishes ; and with regard to begging, I cannot say that I have the objection to it which some people have. If you have a thorough parochial system, then it may be regulated. I don't object to parish badges or sessional badges, keeping the parties within partieiUar walks. That would indefinitely lessen mendicity, and perhaps annihilate it altogether. It was made a matter of police in the county of Fife. Kirkaldy was annoyed with beggars. They cut down the aggregate population of 10,000 into separate districts. Dysart was one, Kirkaldy proper one. Abbot's IlaU one. After having subdivided so far, they resolved to give a kind of warrants from the session to each parochial mendicant, and they restricted their calls to a single application on Saturday. Thus they abated the nuisance. I was quite struck with the sudden reduction which took place in the town of Kirkaldy ; for a moral influence comes into play. Beggary has its attractions for some people. It is an excursive life. Begging commences, not at home, but forty miles perhaps from home. To beg amongst their acquaintances in their old neighbourhood, is a degradation of which they are sensible. And in Kirkaldy, the whole amount of tliis was exposed to the public, and they did relieve them- selves from the nuisance of mendicity to a great extent. The whole was reduced to three calls on Saturday. 473(i. Would public feeling tolerate the licensing of beggars, and placing badges on them? — I don't see why it should not ; it woidd operate as a con-ective influence on the people themselves. I think it would be well to raise a ban-ier, more especially as it would bring into wholesome play a number of principles among the poor themselves. They woidd not choose to incur the degradation. And the people would not interpose to prevent degradation for the worthless, whereas, give me a respectable person who has acquitted himself or herselt In a decent, nciglilwurlike way, and who is the object of kindly feeluig among all the neigh- bours, there would be a very wholesome feeling operating to present them from assummg a degraded position in the eyes of their iicquaintance ; and what from the exertions made by themselves and their relatives, and their neighbours, they would not be left without relief. I think this the UK^st comfortable of all outgoings for the insufficiency of the j)arochial fund. If the parochial fund le insufficient, then you set into play and operation such POOE LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 273 influences among the poor, and that in the lowest extreme of society, as will prevent the Exaininatioiis. thing rising to an inconvenient nuisance. 4737. Do you think the habit of mendicity demoralizes the mind more or less than a ^"iTi^?']''!'!!!!' decent parochial allowance ? — I daresay; if it were unrestricted mendicity, I should think that very unfavourable to the morale of those who betake themselves to it. 4738. Take the case of a widow, with three or four children — supposing, in one instance, she has a decent allowance from the parish — in another instance she goes to the rich, and begs from door to door, in which case is she likely to be most demoralized ? — I don't think the first at all calcidated to have a good moral effect, but, from the way you put it, I think mendicity would be more demoralizing than an allowance ; at the same time, I should prefer mendicity to an allowance, because, under a right parochial management, mendicity would be reduced to a mere infinitesimal. 4739. In your evidence before a committee of the House of Commons, you quoted a passage from Fletcher of Salton, Avith reference to the number of mendicants in Scotland, at the time when he wrote — do you think that statement a credible statement ? — I never heard it questioned. It relates to a time when we had not recovered from the disorders wliich resulted from a disorganized state of society. 4740. What was the population of Scotland at that time ? — About one million. 4741. Do you think one-fifth of the population coidd be mendicants? — Well, that does look incredible. 4742. Particidarly as fifteen years after that, mendicity had disappeared ? — That there should be 200,000 beggars among a million of population impresses me as far less credible than that tlicy should have disappeared at the end of fifteen years. Then you met a young and rising generation by an admirably conducted system of churches and schools from 1696. I don't consider that incredible at all. 4743. Is it your opinion that the tendency of poor laws is to increase the population of a country ? — Yes, I do think so. 4744. Is it your impression that such has been the effect of the poor laws in England ? — Upon the whole. 4745. Are you aware that previous to 1795, when an alteration was made on the law of England it was the general opinion of persons there that the system tended to prevent cottages ; to prevent the increase of population, and to raise the rate of Avages ? — I don't know the opinion in England previous to 1795. It may have prevented a number of cottages being maintained, by the landed proprietors resolving to have as few cottages as possible, in order to abate the burden of the poor law, but I should think a result brought out by a compensation of errors ; the poor law leading to an error on the one hand, and this met by another error. 4746. The question is, what is the eflTect of the law, not whether the result is produced by a compensation of errors ? — My impression is, that it tends to make people reckless about that step which ought to require more prudence and forethought than any other ; that I imagine is the effect of the law. 4747. The law of England previous to 1795 having no able-bodied entitled to relief except in the workhouse, do you think a man would maiTy because he was entitled to relief in the workhouse ? — He woidd not look so far on ; but it induces a general recklessness which extends over his whole habit. If relieved from the care of themselves it does induce a general recklessness which manifests itself in reference to marriage. 4748. But does not poverty produce great recklessness Avith regard to marriage. Is there not proof of that in the case of Ireland ? — No doubt it is a complicated subject how to secure a right habit as to the time of marriage. I Avould first remove all artificial stimulants such as a poor law ; but that is not enough, there should be a-positive application of those principles Avhich beget self-resjicct, and a taste for the comforts and decencies of life. I cannot see how that can be done Avithoiit a good Christian education. There is nothing that elevates a man more than to christianize him ; you see it in the Avhole exterior aspect and bearing that there is a taste for the comforts and decencies of life. In England there is a stimulant, but there is also a high standard of enjoyment among the people, and the effect is to check the excessive growth of population. In Ireland there is no stimulant ; but there is a total Avant of a proper, and dignified, and high standard of enjoyment, and that influence alone is sufficient to account for the high population of Ireland, while it is perfectly consistent AA^ith this that the poor law in England has had a greater eflect in stimulating an increase of the poor than otherwise would have been. 4749. With regard to the influence of a poor law on landed proprietors, is not the ten- dency of a provision for the poor to induce them to take care that there shoidd not be a sui-plus population on their estates ? — Yes. One Avould think that might enter into their calculations. 4750. Then is it not a partial vicAV to look merely at the effect of the poor law on the people themselves ? — There are certain guards and limitations which could be devised in order to repress the tendency to excessive population. But I Avoidd rather have a state of things Avhere the tendency Avould not be allowed to operate ; where it did not operate ; and where it Avould thus be unnecessary to meet it by the determination of the landed proiJrietors not to multiply the population on their estates. 4751. Do you think if in the highlands a poor law with assessments had existed the proprietors would have allowed such a population to grow up on their estates ? — Very likely not. I cannot very avcU ansAver for them ; it is qiute marvellous to me how shortsighted whole classes of men are, and what is obviously aarainst their interest they rush into blmdfold. 2N • 274 MINUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxauiiitatiuns. Dr T. Chalmers. 25 March 1843. 4752. I believe you don't object to a provision for institutional disease? Not for die blind, for the deaf and dumb, for lunatics ? — No, not at all. 4753. For those visited with fever — fever hospitals ? — No ; I do not object. I positively advocate these. 4754. From the public funds ? — I would make a legal provision. 4755. By assessment ?— I have not the least objection to that. 4756. Might such cases not be left to the symj^athies of human nature P — No. Because, just take a poor family with the visitation on them of a lunatic, I think it would be well that there should be an establishment where the lunatic could be placed under proper manage- ment, and that the family should be freed of his presence. If it were left to the sympathies of human nature (take an incurable idiot), this still would burden families, though there would be no risk of encouraging a multiplication of the evU. I think it would be a very great improvement if these cases were removed. The great ground of preference betwixt an asylum for disease and an asylum for poverty, is that the asylum for disease does not multiply cases as an asylum for poverty does. 4757. Don't you tliink you might safely leave individuals to subscribe for lunatic asylums or institutions for the deaf and dumb, and the blind ? — No ; I believe when these cases do occur in any neighbourhood they awaken great sympathy among the immediate neighbours, and a great deal is done ; but what is done is not enough for all the deaf and dumb in the country ; and I would nuich rather — (because free from that great objection to an asylum for general indigence) — I would rather see the deaf and dumb amply provided for. If people woidd only frame their wills judiciously, much good in this way might result. I believe that most of the public charities of England and those of Edinburgh, which arc so multiplied, are productive of no good, and, perhaps, of evil. If a more judicious application had been made of those charities, and if the charitable people ^^'ho leave legacies for public purposes, would give a judicious direction to thcni, I think in that way any burden on the legislature might be superseded. I think the public charities of Edinburgh, if wholesomely, applied, would be amply sufficient for Edinburgh, and a great way around — the half of Scotland, per- haps. Mr Donaldson, instead of making his institution one for general indigence, had he made it a charity for the deaf and dumb, or for the blind, would have done what was enough for the lialf of Scotland. 4758. You would not, by raising an assessment for those purposes, be confounding two tilings distinct in themselves, — that which relates to humanity and that, which relates to justice ? — The consideration that beai's me through that objection is, that, in the case of institutional disease, there must be a certain definite and overtakeable object, which can be provided for. There is such unquestionable public good in the thing that it should be pro- vided for. Humanity and justice are two distinct departments in ethics, and I think that the evil of confounding these should not be aggravated by exemplifying it as an object, the furtherance of wliicli is pernicious in its effects. There may be other objects that shoidd overbear the distinction, by the good done and the evil avoided in providing for them. 4759. Then you disregard the distinction with reference to institutional decrease, because a great public good results from having an assessment? — Yes. 4760. Then if there were a great general good with reference to general indigence, would not the same principle apply ? — Yes. 4761. Then the distinction is not material, the great question being whether a great pub- lic good results from the assessment ? — The distinction is very material, becauvse general indi- gence takes in the whole mass of society. To legalize a scheme for pauperism is to pauperize the whole population. The other class consists of people signalized by the hand of provi- dence — people smitten by the hand of providence with incurable disease ; and no harm can ensue from the most ample provision for them. Such cases are cases marked off by provi- dence for the special regard of the country at large. You have a case to make out in behalf of the one that you have not to make out in behalf of the other. IMay I be permitted to add here, that the great evil of confounding justice with humanity, in the matter of general indi- gence, is, that it gi\es to the people the imagination of a right, and so converts that into the subject of an angry and litigious challenge, which should be a pure interchange of good wUl on the one side and gratitude on the other. On the other, there is no confounding of justice with humanity in the act of providing by law for institutional disease — it being only an act of natural humanity and not of national justice. A government might manifest its benevo- lence as well as its justice, even as it manifests its trust by the encouragement it gives to the fine arts, &c. 47G2. Still, does it not resolve itself into the operation which is for the public good ? — Yes ; I think there is very great hanuonj' betwixt the ethical system which God hath given us and the public good. I should be sorry to rest all legislation upon the public good without attending to what has been already provided in human nature for promoting that good ; — great harm is done by legislation in what is piOi)er to humanity. 4763. Suppose an able-bodied man were smitten down with fever, you would not object to relieve him in a public institution ? — No. 4 7 64. If he were to die prematurely, on what principle would you not relieve his widow and children ? — I should say those cases which occur more rarely can be provided for in a public legal way, without striking in on the general good habit of the country. I should say that old age, for example, everybody may calculate upon and ought to provide for. I should be extremely unwilling to have asylums for the aged, more especially as nature has provided better for them in the care of offspring for aged jiarcnts. And sometimes the lines of demarcation become more obscure, insomuch that there are certain ins'titutions which stand upon debateable land. If I were examined as to an orphan asylum, I should be more POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 275 ■willing to leave it on that debatcable land. I could not say much for or against such insti- Examinations. tutions — upon the whole against. But it is perfectly evident that you may draw out a scale rfTTT of cases. Cases of incurable lunacy there is no question about. But there are other cases "5 March m"' where the line is more obsciu-e. Orphans lie upon the debatcable land. I should not like harshly to say that there ought not to be some provision for orphans. ^ The moment you come into that state where one thing melts gradually into another, it is far more difficult to bring out the jjrinciple and philosophy of the subject. I should not like to be burdened Avith a task so unwieldy as drawing the precise line between the cases you mention and general indigence. But if it were left to me to choose whether there ought to be an asylum for orphans, I would rather say not. 4705. Suppose a widow with a small allowance ekes it out by begging, and the children don't go to school, is not that much worse tlian a regular public provision ? — Yes ; but I am just thrown back on a well-conducted parochial system. Such a case could not happen. It would be kindly and christianly provided for. 4766. With regard to the cases you mentioned as to Glasgow, don't you think these cases might eventually be left to compassion without collections? — I know that is alleged as an exception to my system. I should say I tolerate the Scottish system of collections, because of its comparative innocence — because of its insignificance. Give a parish the assurance of 1000/. a year for the poor, and if that be fuUy in the understanding of the parish, it induces a certain relaxation in all those habits which tend to sustain thorn in a sound and economical state, and it therefore does mischief. Suppose, instead of 1000/., it were 100/., I just say that I would tolerate the 100/., while I would not the 1000/., because pf its insignificancy and comparative innocence. Looking at the subject in this view, that is the deliverance I make — that every charity for general indigence, so far as you invest it with publicity and certainty, is calctdated to do mischief. But there are several things that recon- cile me to the parochial collection ; it has a most wholesome effijct upon the people themselves. It elevates them to the condition of givers, and it raises in their minds a moral barrier. Those who are raised so far as to give their halfpennies, are elevated to the rank of givers, instead of being put down to the condition of recipients of charity. Then I also say, that by the power of a good pai'ochial administration, you might in fact relieve yourself very much from geneiul indigence, by proceeding in the right way with neighbours and relatives, and pointing out to them the duty they owe one another. I could still find a beneficial application for the money thus collected. I shovUd be very willing, if there were no law in Scotland on the subject, and each kirk-session were left to its discretion, I should be very willing, and it would be no difficult achievement for any kirk-sossion, to expend beneficially the whole sum collected at the church doors, (without its being required for general indigence) on educa- tional objects. I tolerate the thing — I rather stand up for it ; and then I pay so much respect for the inveteracy of national custom, that I would not do away with collections. I believe our peoj)le would be as much offended by the disappearance of the plate, as by the disappearance of the pulpit. And I would not conflict with a general habit on the ground that it is a system which is so very harmless, as I conceive our collections to be ; and more especially because of the wholesome effect it has on our peasantry, who, by dropping their halfpennies into the plate, are more elevated in the scale of society, and raised to a different cast altogether. 4767. Could they not apply the parochial subscriptions to relieve constitutional diseases, or to any philanthropic object ? — I should be very happy if the parochial administration were so improved that the kirk-sessions could otherwise apply the funds at their dis- posal, — say for lunatics, and general educational objects. I should think that an improve- ment. 4768. Without reference to ulterior objects, you think there is no evil tendency in the collections, though you think it would be better to have no poor laws whatever ? — Certainly not, connected as the system is with household attentions, and with the intimacy that obtains between those elders who do their duty, and the respective population of each district : that goes very much to the disarming of the evil that might otherwise be in it. As to my 24/. a year, with 800 people, the most extravagant importance is attached to the system of collections. I think the scej)ticism of the English squire is far more excusable than the scepticism of the Scottish landlord. When you say to a Leicester landlord, " Some of your parishes require 1500/. a year to suppoi-t your poor" — I know that such was the case in 1822, when I visited England, — how incredulous they looked when I said the poor Avere maintained very comfortably in my parish tor 24/. a year ! This statement of mine warranted a more rational incredulity in their circumstances, than the notion in Scotland that we could do Avithout the 24/. at all. 4769. Do you know whether that Avas common in Leicestershire? — I made Avhat I call a pauperistical tour through England, and saAV whole bodies of clergymen and others interested in the management of the poor. 4770. Was not more than half of the 24/. a year you speak of in Kilmany apj^hed to the support of one helpless case, so that the remaining poor Avere supported on 12/. a year? — Yes. 4771. Do you think relief, given from a public provision, tends to render less pleasing the relationship among the members of a family ? — Yes. 4772. Take a person in the upper ranks of life, — a mother living with her daughter, and the mother entirely dependent for maintenance on the daughter, — do you think their affection, — the relation between them, — is likely to be more engaging than if the mother were independent, so far as money went ? — I should not like them to be independent of each other by the intromission of a public allowance. 4773. I am speaking of the upper classes ?— I shoidd be sorry if such -yvere not the degreo 276 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, of affection in the upper classes, that in all cases where providence did induce that depen — ; dcnce, the affection of the daughter were not adequate for the relief of the mother. I 25 March I84" should be sorry if the means which providence has allowed to meet such cases were fore- closetl by a provision of any sort. I tliink it much better, in those fractional instances, that opportunities should be given to affection for operating to its whole extent. I think it desirable that such sources should not be foreclosed. 4774. Might there not be a danger of pecuniary dependence begetting alienation, and rendering the relation between parent and child an unhappy one ? — Cases do occur when the mother may be a burden on the daughter, and alienation may result ; but I should be sorry to shut up the source of filial affection to the whole extent which providence has opened up for it. 4775. In the case of friends and neighbours in the upper classes, do you think the relations between friends and their affection would be greater if the one were dependent on the other for money in difficulty, than if they were independent on both sides ? — The same observation applies very much to that case. The kind, benevolent feeling one has for acquaintance, I should be soiry that the opportunities which cast up in the natural state of things were foreclosed by any sort of provision whatever. It is well that opportunities cast up for the display of that neighbourly affection you speak of, — that generosity between man and man. 4776. The point is, whether they might i-emain friends? — It would rivet their affection. 4777. Might it not alter the equality ? — It depends entirely on the individual character, — it depends on such specialties, that one cannot give a general answer. 4778. You do not object to any provision for the better education of the poor in Scot- land ? — No. I would observe that it should be in a higher state ; even while I advocate lunatic asylums and deaf and dumb institutions, it shoidd be the higher state to which you brought up the peasantry which wovdd be the main preventive against pauperism ; and I should like if the collections Avere to cover all these cases. Take things as they are, I cer- tainly have no objection to a legal provision for institutional cases. With regard to educa- tion, I say the Scottish peasantry would be in a higher state, if, in pouit of fact, such was their value for education, that they would count it necessary to advance every quarter their payment to the schoolmaster. That is a much higher state of matters than when they are made the subject of gratuitous education. 4779. But you do not object to any measures for the difRision of education among the people ? — Not in the least ; and the great perfection of our scholastic system is what is called the " medium scheme," wliere the income of the schoolmaster is made up, jiartly of endowment and partly of fees. There was a great deal of profound skill in the founders of our scholastic system, making a part be paid, and, at the same time, ]iroviding a moderate endowment, so that the income from fees is so far eked out by an income from the state. 4780. Would you object to parishes having power to raise money for emigration ? — No, I think it might, in that form, be beneficial ; but I would object to a regular constantly working system of emigration, i. e. to a constant efflux from year to year of the people. I would object to it as part of the general system of the country — that A\ould not improve the economical condition of our society in this country. But I have no objection that power should be given to raise funds for such a pm'pose in cases of emergency ; because it might be exercised in such cases as occur occasionally — such a case as that of Paisley. If it be not a regular system — if it be only a great effort, made for an emergency, and to meet that emergency, I don't object. When thousands are thrown out of employment, it is perhaps the best means of relieving them. And it would test the distress too ; for the question might be put, " are you willing to be removed to a foreign countiy ?" I should be exceed- ingly sorry if these accidental, temporary things were made a stepping-stone for a general system of poor laws in Scotland, when I believe the thing could be much more easily pro- vided for by emigration — provided for as many as were willing. It was worth the expense when the kelp manufacture filled in the highlands ; and when the shawl manufacture fails in Paisley, it is quite worth the expense, to meet such a case at once by emigration, which both tests the distress and relieves the public obligation. When they have ready provided the means of emigrating, the public are relieved from a farther claim ; and then the great cause of the evil is removed — the surj)lus of unemployed hands. 4781. You would recommend dividing a town into small districts? — Very much; if they are cut down into fragments, they are far more manageable. 4782. Would you have the test of work ?— I would rather have the power of emigration. 4783. But if there were no power of emigration ? — My expeiience inclines me to say, that it is not a case which, as I think, ought to be provided for beforeliand. The experience I can give you with rcgjird to my own parish, shows how it acts as a test for distress. There were other cases which showed to me that the whole problem was provided for by that Latin proverb, " divide et impera," " divide and govern." There was an emigration society that tried to raise, and did raise funds (perhaps my Lord Belhaven may recollect it) for the pui-pose of enabling persons to go to the colonies. At that time it numbered 5 March 1843. Mr Townley, or to assess for Paisley. If the government would not like to driiw on tlie public revenue to such an extent, I would say that it was very nuich for the interest of the landed proprietors of Scotland to lend their aid in such an emergency, rather than have a regidar system eration. You want the principle Avhich enters into that system — the kind, chiistianly, friendly intercourse between the recipients and the administrators ; and you have nothing but the hard intercourse between the paid official and the pauper ; you cannot have that intimate knowledge of the circumstances and condition of individuals, so as to judge with accuracy of their wants, and to administer relief in the way most desirable and beneficial. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 281 A. Bunlop, Esq. 25 March J 843. 4841. That intercourse you propose through the kirk-session ? — Undoubtedly. But then, Examinatione, in large towns like Edinburgh, where the bounds of the parish are so enormous, they can- not overtake it ; and with many other burghs and parishes the case is the same. 4842. Then you woidd conceive it necessary, in order to make the sj-stem work in large towns, that, if possible, means should be devised for subdividing the parishes, so as to admit of the application of the system ? — Undoubtedly. 4843. Have you formed any notion with regard to the size of the parishes — suppose Dr Chalmers had stated it at 2000 ?— I think 2000 is perhaps the best medium size ; and I ob- serve, from the returns to the General Assembly, that the expense of management is lessin parishes of 2000 than even in parishes where there is a smaller number : 2000 is the point where the expense of administration is least, in proportion to the numbers. 4844. Is there any alteration you woidd suggest in the administration of landward parishes ? — Why, nothing particularly occurs to me. Generally, greater facility might be given for determining whether an applicant was entitled to be relieved. Instead of an advocation to the Coiu-t of Session, the matter might be trusted safely to the sheriif. With regard to the towns, if you will allow me to mention, it is scarcely possible, with the present state of the establishment, to get them so subdivided as they ought ; and it did occur to me that the co-operation of other christian bodies might be sought for this purpose. Perhaps this would be the most available means of subdividing towns, by allotting a certain district exclusively for the administration of the pooi* to each congregation, which would undertake the duty ; and perhaps agree to contribute a certain portion of their collections to a general fund, or apply them to their own poor ; granting to them a certain portion of the assessment, the fund being apportioned by the governmg body. In that way, the difficulty arising from the size of a town might be very much obviated. 4845. I understood you to approve of some appeal from the kirk-session ? — On the point whether a party is entitled to be placed on the roll. 4846. With regard to the amount of allowance ? — There is a good deal of difficulty. If the heritors and kirk-session acted so as to evade their duty, and gave an elusory allowance, it would be proper that they should be controlled. If they fairly and honestly exercise their discretion, I am not sure that any other body is more hkely to judge properly. Certainly the Court of Session, judging at a distance, and fi-om evidence not given in their presence, with regard to the amount to be allowed in the special circumstances of each particular case, would be perhaps as bad a system as possible — very unsatisfactory. 4847. Supposing an appeal to the sheriff, would there not be the risk of Individuals taking different views as to the extent of the relief which should be afforded in particular cases ? — Undoubtedly there would ; and that is one of the reasons why I would not be inclined to take it away from the heritors and kirk-session. The relief depends on so many circum- stances that I don't see how it is possible to have a general unbending rule. 4848. Have you had an opportunity of observing whether the amount of relief afforded to paupers in Edinburgh is or is not sufficient ? — I believe it is altogether inadequate. 4849. Then, would you not give them some power of having a larger allowance ?— I think the remedy there woidd be vesting it more in a body like the heritors and kirk- session in country parishes. It is distributed just now substantially by the hired officials, who report to the board of the charity workhouse ; and I don't think that a tribunal quali- fied to judge properly of the circumstances of the party, and the manner in which relief should be distributed. The cure, however, is not to j)lace the matter under a court of law, but to provide proper machinery for executing the functions. 4850. Do you conceive, where the power was generally exercised through the heritors and kirk-session, that, in general, adequate relief would be given to the paupers ?— Yes, the parishes to be reduced to a manageable size. In the administration, the assumincr heritors and kirk-session living among the people, and having a strong interest, and naturally a charitable desire to see those with whom they are in personal intercourse pro- vided for, I have very great confidence In their administration, so as to warrant resistance to a change. It is very different in towns, where these feelings don't come into play at all. The object of an agency such as exists in large towns must be to save as much to their constituents as possible. 4851. Are you aware that in Leith it is administered through the heritors and kirk-ses- eion ? — Leith, I presume, is treated as legally a landward parish. But It is a large town. They must act by a committee, or ultimately by the hired persons who report to them. 4852. In the case of country parishes, or even in towns, would you be disposed to alter the law of settlement ? — I have not seen any reason for altering the law of settlement. There are points in the law of settlement very uncertain, which it would be desirable to clear, par- ticularly with regard to the derivative settlements of widows and cliildren ; but with regard to the three years' residence, I don't think it desirable to alter that. 4853. But has it not the effect of settling in Scotland many strangers, who otherwise would go back to their own country ? — Yes ; undoubtedly it has. But a longer period would cause a great restraint on change of residence, which ought not to be. 4854. Do you see any objection to hmlting it to the jilace of birth ?— -The great object ia to get a certain rule. But 1 think It would not be just if a party, bom in a particidar place, coidd become a burden upon it after bestowing his hfe's labour elsewhere. The other_ place would have all the advantages, not only of his labour, but of the manufactures on which he might be engaged ; and when such persons became frail and useless, that they should all be thrown back on the place of their birth, which had not been benefited by their services, or by the manufactures which had collected them to one point, — would I think be a hard- ship. I cannot see any ground for taking the place of birth. 882 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. A. Dunlop, Esq, 25 March 1843. 4855. You stated that you would not wish any considerable change in the present system; I suppose you included in that statement that you would not wish a change with regard to assessments ? — Undoubtedly. 4856. Are you acquainted with parishes in remote parts of Scotland ? — Not personally — only from reports. 4857. Do you conceive from aU the cases that have come under your notice, that the general administration of the poor laws in Scotland, is such as to afford adequate relief to the poor ? — Except in the very large populous towns it does. The relief of itself is not sufficient to maintain a person ; but, united with the assistance they get from neighbours, I have no doubt it is generally sufficient in rund districts. In the north, in many places, the poor law is not brought into operation at all. 4858. Then you conceive when the law requires needful sustentation, it meant with other Bources ? — I always understood it to mean that so much shoidd be provided by assessment, that with all other sources of support, whether of right or of charitj', it shoidd enable the parties to have a sufficient subsistence. 4859. Would you be so good as mention what are the disputed cases with regard to the settlement of widows and children to wliich you referred ? — For instance, a child lives in his father's house. Wlien fourteen, he is fit for service. He goes into service in one parish ; and if he work in that paiish for three years, he has a settlement. But he changes to another Earish, then to a third, and so on ; never living three years in any one parish, meanwhile is father changes his residence from one parish to another in like manner, acquiring, it may be, a second and a third settlement, and his settlement in the original pai-ish is gone, by his three years' residence in another. The question is, where is the boy's settlement — the original parish which was his settlement when he left his father's house, or any intermediate parish, in which his father had acquired a settlement, and which ? A woman, again, gets a settlement by marriage. Her husband dies. She goes elsewhere, without acquiring a new settlement, and has bastard cliildren ; and the question is, are they settled in the parish of the deceased husband, or in the mother's maiden settlement. 4860. Are you prepared to state how you would deal with that? — It is a matter of com parative indifference if there were a fixed rule. 4861. With reference to parishes partly landward and partly burgal, what would you sug eest ? — I would separate them. If they are to be treated according to the rule of burghs, then the assessment is on means and substance ; if according to the rule of landward parishes on the rental. As the law at present stands, the same rule cannnot be applied to both. For instance, with regard to assessment, it is provided that it should be laid in landward parishes, one-half on the heritors, and one-half on the tenants ; in a mixed parish you cannot have it done in either way according to law. In burghs, if you lay one-half on the heritors and one- half on the tenants, it is contrary to law. Then, if you, in a landward parish, lay the assess- ment on, without division, it is contrary to law. 4862'. What was the decision in the case of Dunbar? — The court here held that the land- ward and burgal districts must be managed separately. The House of Lords held that they must be managed together. 4863. Does the thing work practically, as the House of Lords decided? — It has not been called in question. If not challenged, they may come to some mixed rule on the subject. But I believe there is no assessment in a mixed parish which, if an individual challenged it, he might not set aside. 4864. Supposing the assessment were made in the burgh parish, on means and substance, and in the landward part half on the landlord and half on the tenant ? — That is contrary to the rule that they must be managed in one way. 4865. But how do you reconcile that with the different rules of assessment? — The House of Lords have decided that the administration shall be united. 4866. You are aware the managers of the charity workhouse, the administrators of the fimds in Edinburgh, have applied for an additional assessment and been reftised ? — Yes. 4867. Would you advise any alteration of the law, or that the power should continue so vested, being In the magistrates and council ? — It is not vested without control. 4868. By application to the Court of Session ? — Or the sheriff coidd force them to make a proper assessment. 4869. Have you any example ? — There are no cases; but the statutes are clear on the subject. 4870. Then an alteration of the law is not necessary ? — It is rather a want of machinery that exists. 4871. But some act of the legislature woidd be necessary? — Undoubtedly, to facilitate that. 4872. Of what description shoidd that be ? — Not being aware of the points I should be examined on, I liave not considered the subject. 4873. Are you acquainted with the management of the West Church ? — Not personally. 4874. Have you any general opinion whether the allowances are satisfactory there ? — They are very much in the same situation as in the to^^-n. From the returns made to the General Assembly, it appears that the highest rate of allowance in St Cuthberts to a single pauper is 71. 4s., while in Edinburgh it Is only 4Z. 16s. I hold them to be quite Insufficient. 4875. Are you aware whether, in St Cuthbert's parish, the distribution is by paid agents or by gratuitous agents ? — I believe very much by a committee of heritors. 4876. So far as a comparison of those two parishes goes, there is no reason to believe that the small allowances, in either case, arise from the presence or absence of paid agents ? — The circmnstance of the management being by paid agents, accounts for the state of matter POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 283 in the one case ; and In the other, they are in an analogous situation. The heritors thought the kirk-session too liberal ; and the management was transferred to a committee appointed by the rate-payers. Then the parish is enormous; and you have not that kindly friendly intercourse which I think you always have in a small parish, where the parties engaged in the management are heritors, personally acquainted with the jieople, with an admixture of elders, who feel themselves, in a great respect, in a different position from the heritors. 4877. Are you aware that a proposal was made for a larger assessment in St Cuthbert's parish, and that the fear existed, as the allowances were so smsdl in the country parishes, that tlicre would be an influx of paupers into St Cuthbert's, if the allowances were increased there ? — I was not aware of it. 4878. Do you think it desirable, in any way, to alter the valuation in Scotland — to have a uniform mode of laying on the assessment ? — Undoubtedly ; the real rent ought always to be taken. 4879. And the present system altered? — In purely landward parishes the assessment produces pretty much an equality. But where tliere is an admixture of house property, or of mines, the rule of the valued rent creates great inequahty ; and the real rent (especially as there is now a valuation over the kingdom), would be a great Improvement. 4880. It is left to the option of parties to take which mode of assessment they please ? — Yes ; subject, however, to the review of the court, who, in cases brought up, have generally insisted on the real rent being taken. 4881. It matters not. If parties raise the sum, In what way it is done ? — Of course not. The inequality is avoided by taking the real rent. There Is an Inequality which falls also on tenants. A gentleman has retired to a village, and lives there, having no premises except a house and a garden, it may be, though he is worth three or four times more than the tenant of an adjommg farm ; yet the assessment on both is fixed by the rent of the property occupied by each. 4882. Is it not altogether Impossible to ascei'tain the proportion of the assessment, to the amount of the property in the parish ? — I fomid a difficulty in making up the tables in the General Assembly's report ; in stating any proportion over Scotland, of the assessment to the pi'opert}', arising from the diversity of the modes in which assessments are laid on. 4883. Is the law perfectly clear with regard to able-bodied persons having no relief from assessment ? — I was always accustomed to hold it so. At the same time, a judgment of the court in 1801 held the reverse. It was carried by the casting voice of one judge ; and almost every lawyer since who has given an opinion on the point, has held that the judgment is not In accordance with our statute law ; but the judgment stands. 4884. You are aware of a recent judgment, in a certain case, from the parish of Ceres : — will you state what that was ? — It was a case in which an allowance was given to a pauper, which was not challenged, however, as elusory, but on the ground of Inadequacy ; the court judged the allowance Insufficient, and remitted to the heritors and kirk-session to augment it, the com-t not fixing the amount which ought to be awarded. 4885. What do you think will be the effect of the judgment on the general adminis- tration ? — I have no doubt the first effect wIU be to double the assessments throughout the whole of Scotland. The next will be to create an enormous mass of litigation, bringing up nearly every case to the Court of Session. 4886. And would you not tliink it desirable to make an alteration of the law on that particular point ? — As I never anticipated that the court would interfere, except where the allowance was elusory, — except where they held that the heritors and kirk-session were evading their duty, I had not thought on the subject before that judgment was pronounced ; and having been since very much occupied, I have not considered the point. 4887. You have not considered what would be the effect? — No. 4888. When you say the allowances In Edinburgh and St Cvithbert's are extremely inadequate, do you mean inadequate by themselves, or with other means ? — I beheve them inadequate, taking the other means into consideration. They might perhaps be adequate in other circumstances, where the benevolence of richer people was called out I cannot say I have jiersonal experience in the matter. In my district, the parish with which I am con- nected, there are few pauper cases, and none of inadequacy ; but, so far as I can learn, there is a degree of misery In Edinburgh, taking into view every source, which ought not to sub- sist. 4889. Does that exist among the worthy or the unworthy ? — I am not able to answer. 4890. Have you reason to beheve among the worthy poor there is a great proportion of poverty ? — I cannot attempt to answer that. '4891. Are you satisfied with the present bastardy law of Scotland ? — I think it takes the right medium. 4892. With regard to maintenance by the father? — I approve of the system. I thought you alluded to the proof of paternity. 4893. What of that? — I tliink we take the proper medium, in admitting as sufficient a degree of evidence, called a half proof, creating a strong suspicion ; and then allowing the mother's oath may be taken in supplement. 4894. With regard to the liabihty, do you think it proper that the mother should be liable in the first instance ? — The father may be compelled by the mother to support the clilld. 4895. State the law with regard to the maintenance of illegitimate children, — who is bound, in the first instance ? — The father, primarily. The mother may bring an action against the father. She is entitled to force the father to support the child. 4896. What is the settlement of the child? — The child is settled in the mother's parish. Exauiinatiung. A. Diinlop, Ewj. 25 Marcli 184;i. 284 IVHNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. A. Dunlop, Esq. 2.1 March 1843. 4897. In addition, have you any facts or oijinions with regard to this inquiry which you wish to state ? — Most of rhy opinions are contained pretty fully in the report presented in 1841 to the Assembly by the committee of which I was convener, and to which I would beg to refer for my views. 1 forget whether there is mentioned there what has pressed me very much with regard to lunatic paupers, the burden of supporting whom falls very unequally upon parishes. Some have an undue proportion. There may be a whole famUy of idiots. There are several instances of this ; then the burden on the parish is extreme, and it continues often for a long period of years. It would be very desirable to equalize that. In the synod of Aber- deen, a plan is atloptcd wliich might be applied to the whole kingdom, giving one-half dut of a general fund, or perhaps a larger proportion, while each parish might be left to supple- ment what may he necessary. If that were done by a general assessment, I think it would be a very great improvement. I have also had occasion to observe a good deal of difficulty as to assessmg companies and partnerships. There is great uncertainty just now with regard to societies where there are no resident partners. The rule as at present seems to be, that unless there be a resident partner no rate can be levied, however numerous the parties in their employment, or however great their profits. It would be very useful to nave that remedied, and the rate carried over every partnership. 4898. Does it strike you that, in the present state of society, an assessment on means and substance would be advisable or convenient? — I have a great preference for that mode, in respect of its equality and justice. The feeling is strong against it in some places, but not so strong against it, generally, as is commonly supposed ; and I know no other that comes nearer the point of affording equality and justice in the contributions by all parties. 4899. It is only applicable in burghs? — No ; it is applicable to landward parishes also ; it may be applied in such parishes in reference to the half of the assessment laid on inlnabitants. Mr Girdwood. Mr Girdwood, Examined : — 4900. You are employed to superintend some workmen out of work in the Duke's walk ? — Yes. Mr Dowie is the contractor. I am under him. 4901. You have been accustomed to superintend ? — ^Not a great deal. Keeping bars and carts is my business. 4902. Are you satisfied with the way in which they are working? — They are woi'king at present pretty well. I can say nothing against the men. 4903. Have you had an opportunity of seeing those nsen who are employed in the Mea- dows and Links ?— Often. I just stay beside them. 4904. What is your opinion of the working there ? — ^My opinion is just this — ^it is very badly carried on. I consider fifty would have done as much as a thousand, 4905. Are you of opinion that they did the work in proper time at all ? — Of course they were much neglected ; and although men were put over them to see the work done in regular and proper style, yet the men who were there were of their own kind. They had no more .wages. They took no interest ; and did not care whether they came or not. 4906. Have you seen persons who were not entitled to employment (rf that nature ? — Many w'ho had UQt occasion to be employed in it. Many a person who, I consider, had no right to be employed. That is my opinion. 4907. Had they otlier means of subsistence ? — A great many-^I don't know whether they had or not. Many poor persons who applied had more need than many of those who were employed. 4908. Do you speak from a knowledge of those who were there ? — I cannot exactly say. But I speak for myself. 4909. WKen you say they had no right to be employed, you mean they were not in pro- per circumstances to make them proper objects to be relieved from the relief funds ? — Oh, yes, of course. 4^10. Were there many such ? — I thought there were a good many ; Ixit I cannot say. 4911. Then the nature of the labour was no test for trying whether the men were out of work or not — it was so light working that it formed no test or measure of a man's necessity ? — -I consider that the work might have been done for the good of the people ; but it did very little benefit to a great deal of them. 4912. Do you know whether there were any operatives out of employment — respectable persons ?-^0h, yes, a great many respectable people — many who could work for good wages. 4913. So that, although many of them were idle, and ought not, as idle men, to have been regarded as proper objects of charity, yet a considerable number were in great distress who were of respectable character ? — Oh, in great distress. 4914. If they had been working at piece-work? — llie men working there, if they had been set to break stones, would not have got 3d. a day. 4915. What did they get? — Sixpeiice a day. 4916. Did all get the same? — There was a difference for those who had families. They had lOd., I think. 4917. Tlicy were not properly superintended ?—Tliere were too few to superintend — too many left to one man's charge. One jvho has 600 to go round is not fit to look after them aU. 4918. And was there bad working inconsequence of their inability to work? — The matter POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 285 of fact is they seemed not to care whether they worked or not, They worked when ExamiMations. there was some one there ; but some, I beUeve, did not work a day out of tlie week. 4919. You said there was a number of operatives who came to apply — what kmd of .45 March 1843. tradesmen ? — All sorts of tradesmen, 4920. AYrights and cabinetmakers ?-^Ycs ; wrights, cabinetmakers, tailors, weavers, and other tradesmen. Monday, ^th March 1843. MI;MBEIIS 1>IIE8ENT. Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD BELHAVEN IN THE CHAIR. Mr William Thomson, Jun., Examined: — -I am superintendent MrW. Thomaoa. 27 March 1843. 4921. You are superintendent of the town's hospital in Glasgow ?- of the poor in the city of Glasgow. 4922. How long have you held that situation ? — I have been two years superintendent of the poor. I held another office previously, — inspector of the sessional poor. 4923. Is it the duty of the inspector to go round the houses of the poor, and visit them 1 — His duty is to visit the poor at their own houses. 4924. Do you personally undertake that duty in regard to the whole poor within the royalty ? — Yes. 4925. The town's hospital is a poorhouse, I believe, for the reception of paupers belong- ing to the city of Glasgow ? — Yes, for the reception of the aged and infirm, who have no home, and who have no friends to care for them sufficiently The hospital is under a separate government. 4926. Is there any printed account of the hospital ? — I have one here written by Mr James Ewing, which contains a history of it ; and there is also an epitome of Mr Evving's history of the hospital in the pamphlet entitled " Regulations for the Town's Hospital of Glasgow," which was published in 1841. [" Report for the Directors of the Town's Hos- pital of Glasgow," and " Regulations for the Town's Hospital of Glasgow," given in.] 4927. What number of inmates are in the hospital? — I have here a document which was made up at the last quarterly meeting in February. We meet once in the quarter, and I thought the most fitting time to take the number was when the account was properly made up. There were at that time in the hospital 421 males and females. 4928. How many of each ?— Males 154 ; females 267. 4929. Is the accommodation filled up ? — Yes, it is filled up. 4930. There is no accommodation for more ? — None. 4931. Is it sufficient for the fiumber of applications ! — No. We are to move to a larger house in summer,^it is the lunatic asylum at present, furnished me with a state, which I shall give in if you classified ; — Variously employed. Bed-rid, Insane, blind, and unable. The governor of the wish it. The inmates 2.54 36 131 hospital thus are 421 4932. Can you not give a separate statement of these classes, insane, blind, and unable ? —I have no such document, but it can be furnished. 4933. Who is governor ? — Peter Hill. Formerly he had my office as well as his own ; but this was too much for one. 4934. What other contents have you in that state ? — A list of those whom we have boarded in tlie hospital at a small sum. There are twenty of them, at a small sum, amount- ing in all to 218Z. 4s. annually. There is also a statement of the number receiving payments as outdoor pensioners. I have here also a small book containing the city, as divided into districts, to each of which a surgeon is appointed for attending to the sick poor. We have seventeen surgeons. [" State" and " Division of the city into districts," given in.] 4935. The city is divided into districts for medical relief? — Yes ; the " Division" con- tains a map, and the names of the district surgeons. 4936. Are these surgeons paid a salary from the funds of the hospital 1 — Yes. 4937. What is the salary ?— Twenty guineas each, so far as my memory goes. 4938. How are the funds for the maintenance of the hospital levied ? — By assessments, with the addition of the collections at the church doors. 4939. According to what rate is the assessment levied ? — This department not being 286 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. MrW Tin. s under my charge, I cannot speak decidedly ; but I think it was five per cent, on the rental •-'7 ilarch'l843. ''*®* jear, — one-half paid by the tenants, and one-half by the landlords. 4940. Is it at the rack-rent ? — I do not know. The tenants of houses under 11. rent do not pay ; the landlord pays his half, however. The act for Glasgow is a special act. 4*141. What is the date of the act?— 3d July 1840. 4942. Do you happen to know the sum total of the assessment for the last year? — I think it was about 18,000/. I have not the exact accounts beside me, as our accounts are only made up at the end of May. The magistrates impose the assessments, not me. 4943. Do you know what proportion the collections at the church doors bears to the assessment .' — No. An agreement was entered into between the town-council and the different churches, by which the town-council accept of a certain sum. It was ascertained what had been the average amount of collections for a period preceding, and a deduction of ten per cent, was made from that average, and an abatement of the extra sum collected on sacramental Sabbaths. The amount was thus struck payable for each Sabbath day. This agreement was made for five years, and three of them have already expired. 4944. If any sum remain, how is it to be applied ? — To educational purposes, — to the education of the poor, and to no other purpose. 4945. Is the parish of St John's under the same circumstances as the other parishes ? — Now the same. 494G. St John's parish is within the royalty ? — All within the royalty. 4947. The barony and Gorbals parishes are quite unconnected with the city ? — Yes, the barony, Gorbals, and Govan parishes, — they have no claim on the town's hospital. 4948. Is there a considerable number of out-poor in Glasgow? — A very considerable number. 4949. Is there any means of telling in what proportions they are admitted to the town's hospital ? — I can tell you the proportions of the sessional poor ; but I cannot state the exact number in the hospital books. 4950. By the sessional poor you mean those who receive outdoor allowance ? — Yes. The way we have divided our poor is this, — the plan for receiving applications from the poor, if single or aged is, that it must first come through one of the ten sessions. When the applica- tions are received notice is sent to me, as superintendent for the poor, to visit and report. If the application is from a widow with a family, or a youthful person in sickness, it is gene- rally made direct to the hospital. In such cases, I immediately go and visit, or go within a week, — in sessional cases I visit within a month ; but in the meantime an allowance is given for relief. If it is an hospital application, relief is given immediately, without anything far- ther than questions at the time. 4951. Is there a portion of the assessment put into the hands of the session, in order that the elders may distribute it in that manner? — Yes, the sessions are allowed so much every month. The whole amount required for the sessional poor, while they continue to be ses- sional poor, is put into their hands, and they distribute it until the allowance reaches the maximum, which is 6s. in the month. If this is found to be inadequate to their wants, the case is recommended to the hospital by the elder as necessitous, and the party is put on the quarterly or monthly list of the hospital at a higher rate. The highest fixed sum for a single case thws recommended, is 12s. a month. 4952. Is the whole relief, whether money or otherwise, given to the poor not inhabiting the hospital, distributed by the elders ? — When they require more than 6s. a month, they »re taken on the hospital lists, — women with children also ; and vagrants who wander from place to place, no elder could take charge of them. 4953. There seems to be a permanent roll for the elders?— 1200 are permanently «nrolled. 4954. Is the relief to those permanently enrolled through the elders considered as suflBcient relief without other assistance ? — The moment that the relief becomes insufficient, the poor are referred to the hospital. If I find that they require more than the sessions are giving them, it is my duty to suggest to the elders to send them down to the hospital. 4955. The principle of those payments is not that they shall of themselves be sufficient ? — No, they are merely intended to assist. 4956. Do you find it possible for you to undertake the inspection of such a number of persons ? — I have done it hitherto, with a great deal of labour no doubt. I work generally till four in the morning, and sleep only about four hours. I am obliged to do that, but I hope it will not continue so. The extra poor have increased twofold, — a good deal owing to the getting up of cases of poverty. The directors have been kind enough to offer me an assistant ; but the only assistant I have taken is a clerk to assist me in writing up the report. 4957. How many paupers are on the out list of the hospital? — On the monthly list there are 508, receiving from 3s. to 14s. each per month, amounting to 149/. 16s. 6d. On the quarterly list there are 282, receiving from 5s. to 35s., amounting to 294/. 9s. 8d. You will understand that this quarterly list includes families as well as individuals, — it is the list under which widows are paid : 35s. a quarter is the maximum paid to any widow's family—the children are all under the charge of their mothers. There is another class — children at nurse, — of these we have 320, for which we pay from 15s. to 30s. quarterly, — amounting to 357/. 15s. 7d. I may explain, in regard to the small number at 15s. a quarter, that they are generally taken charge of by some relations who are particularly anxioiis to keep them, and will keep them at a small sum rather than give them over to the hospital, being able to do a little for them. The smallest sum we pay out of doors is 4/. 10s. in the year, except in the cases referred to ; we provide clothing and education besides. We have ft number of respectable persons that take our children ; and it is my duty to visit them POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 287 and see that they are cared for. Then on the meal-roll we have 282, receiving from four Esaniinations. to twelve lbs. of meal weekly. The distribution last week was IC bolls 15 pecks. — - — 49.)8. What is the sum total ?— It is not made up— the meal is not valued. The sum .I? jja. ci'iTa w"' total of the numbers, I think, amounts to 1392. The sessional number I can state exactly. Taking the same date referred to in regard to the others, the number amounts to 1338. There has been a considerable increase in the course of a short while. On a late occasion when the number was taken, it amounted to 1294 ; now it is 1338. 4959. How often are you enabled to visit ? — Once a year such ca-ses ; but if any case is represented to me as urgent, 1 visit immediately ; and in sick cases the surgeons visit every day ; and if any case comes under their notice requiring relief, they bring them before the weekly committee, and they are immediately attended to. 49(50. How is the body of hospital directors chosen ? — Twelve are chosen by the town- council, twelve by the merchants' house of Glasgow ; twelve by the trades' house, and twelve by the general session, (that is, the ministers and elders.) These constitute a body of forty- eight. The provost for the time is chairman ex officio. The directors then choose a preceptor and treasurer, so that the whole body consists oi fifty-one members. At the annual meeting a committee is appointed, consisting of nine, besides the preceptor, for the weekly manage- ment of the funds. They attend weekly for all sorts of applications. Last Thursday they sat from half-past ten till four o'clock. When I sat there fourteen years ago, our ex- penditure used to be from 21. 10s. to 3^. in the week ; and our expenditure last Thursday was 38/. 49G1. Who drew up the introduction to the regulations ? — It was drawn up from Mr Ewing's previous introduction, with some assistance I had it in my power to give. 4962. Have you reason to believe that it is accurate ? — Yes, I believe so ; but Mr Ewing's book gives a greater detail of the whole management. 4963. Do you make any decision as to the amount given to each pauper? — That is the duty of the committee. It is my duty when I find a poor person in receipt of a sum inadequate, to say to them, " this person has not enough ;'' and I have never yet found in any instance that they did not attend to my recommendation. I hold myself also to be the protector of the poor. I trust before God that I do my duty in taking care that none of the poor are neglected. 4964. You had been connected with the management of the poor previously ? — Yes, I have had a charge for fourteen years, as a director of the hospital, and for sixteen years as an elder. 4965. Is it your opinion that, taking into consideration other means of maintenance, the allowances are generally adequate ? — It is a difficult question to say now what is adequate. The circumstances of the poor are very much changed. The poor we had formerly got some kind of work, and now they find difliculty in getting it. Formerly the aged and infirm got light work, by which they could make from 3d. to 6d. a day. Now machinery has superseded a great deal of that labour. The prison discipline has withdrawn a portion of the low paid work, the manufacturers placing it in the hands of Mr Bremner, I understand. I do not, however, speak of my own knowledge on the last point. There is a great desire on the part of the directors to increase the allowance. The last quarter a higher allowance has been given for children than formerly. We formerly used to limit the allowance to a widow with two children under ten years of age, and to her was allowed 15s. a quarter ; if she had only one child she got no allowance. Now a widow with one child gets 15s. a quarter, and with two, 20s. a quarter. 4966. Was that increase since the reduction of provisions? — It was when the great hardship came ; it took place only within the last nine months ; I cannot state the date exactly. There was a motion before the directors for a still higher augmentation of the rates. 4967. You said they have a difficulty in getting work ? — Yes ; formerly I considered the poor generally to have a sufficiency of allowance, with the little they could make from the work they got. The degree of comfort that many of the sessional poor then enjoyed was astonishing ; but within the last four years a great change bus taken place among the lower classes of them. 4968. Can you give a statement of the birth-place, and a general history of the sessional poor ?— I can, of the year 1840. Born within the city, 286 ; born in other parts of Scot- land, 694 ; born in Ireland, 219 ; born in England, 17 ; born in foreign parts, 4 ; making a total of 1220. 4969. Have you any statement of how long they have resided in the city ? — That we cannot get ; the answer which we get when the question is put is as wide of the truth as one is from twelve. I have known persons stating that they have resided fourteen years in the city who had not resided in it fourteen days. The number of those I have stated as born within the city I think is correct ; because there are data by which to examine them. The Irish I know generally by their tongue, notwithstanding their attempts to conceal it ; and sometimes I am enabled to get out the truth. 4970. Is it not the fact that several years ago there was a much greater demand for labour than there now is ?— A much greater demand. Labour is superseded by machinery in different kinds of work. The work of winding cotton yarn on bobbins, for the manu- facturer to warp into webs is now done chiefly by machinery. I beg to put in a printed copy of one of my reports to the directors in 1840, which shows the number of cases born within the city and other parts ; and the number of widows, single women, widowers, single men, and married men, and other statistical matters. 4971. Has this been drawn up by yourself? — Yes. 288 MINUTES OF E\T^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Ex&minKtions. MrW. Thomson. 27 Maicli 1843. 4972. And it is correct from your own personal knowledge ? — Yes. 4973. Can you furnish us with an analysis of the occupations or trades of the poor ? — It is at the end of the report which I have given in. 4974. Have you reason to believe that persons come from country places to gain a settle- ment in Glasgow ? — Continually, they come from country parishes in order to gain a settle- ment. They either come in by the advice of friends, or of their own accord. 497.5. Could you give us a list of such cases ? — No. I have not analyzed my own pro- cedure since I entered into the office which I now hold. 497(). Could you make out to us ten or twenty cases of individuals who have come into Glasgow in order to make out a settlement ? — I shall have no difficulty in doing that, even to a larger amount, if I am allowed time. 4977. Will you be kind enough to make out such a list at your convenience ? — Certainly. I shall send it to the Commission. 4978. In the cases you refer to, is it not possible that those from the country come merely for the purpose of obtaining light work— old people for instance ? — That may be the case in some instances ; but in the cases I have mentioned, the people are disabled before they come to Glasgow. 4979. When the Irish come under such circumstances, do you acknowledge them ? — They apply to us for assistance — they get over to Glasgow from Ireland for 6d. 4980. Do you refuse them relief unless they have obtained a settlement? — We refuse them, but frequently they get the better of us. The magistrates do not assist us in compelling them to go away. 4981. Supposing a Scotch person, not having a settlement, applies to you, how would you deal with him .-' — If he belongs to a neighbouring parish, we refer him to it ; if to a distant parish, we send him home if he will go ; we pay his expenses, or send him home with a parish pass. 4982. Do you do that without communicating with the parish ? — Without communicating with the parish, except he be infirm, and not fit to be removed. 4983. Do you rely on the statement of the party himself as to the parish to which he belongs ? — We are obliged to do it — we have no other means of knowing it. If we cannot rely on him, we do not send him on a pass, but we pay his expenses. We give him no document to introduce him to his parish. 4984. Do you know many instances of Scotch people who have come to Glasgow to obtain a settlement? — A good many highlanders come, and also persons from the lowlands, — some worthless persons. 4985. Were they not getting allowances from their own parishes? — I cannot tell how they deal with their paupers, except from the General Assembly's report. 4986. What class of persons are the highlanders who come to obtain a settlement? — They are very aged persons, frequently without friends, probably having some acquaintance in Glasgow. I find, on an analysis of the parishes of their birth, that a considerable number come from one parish. When one comes here and obtains a settlement, and finds himself comfortable, he is the means of attracting others from the same parish. I find in some of the parishes, according to the General Assembly's report, that the allowance is small. 4987. Have you known cases of farm-servants coming to Glasgow to obtain a settlement ? • — They sometimes come in, seeking town's work, and fall into poverty. I do not think they come in old age, except highland farm-servants. 4988. In regard to the surgeons who attend to the outdoor poor, have they the power of ordering nutritious diet to the patients? — They may order wine for them, we do not allow them to order food. Their report of the state of the patients procures for them pecuniary relief. The surgeons have the power of ordering wine, porter, and spirits, but not food. Their report brings relief from the committee — the committee grants relief in all these cases. 4989. Is the board in the practice of allowing nutritious diet to patients, on the recom- mendation of the medical officers ? — We give them money for the purpose of procuring it. The highest amount given in one sum is 5s. We find it unsafe to intrust them with more at a time, — that is for one week in a case of illness. Whenever a poor person takes fever, the district surgeon visits him, and on his certifying that the case is fever, an order is im- mediately sent for the reception of the patient into the infirmary. We have an arrangement with the directors of the infirmary, by which they are to be paid 15s. for every one we send in. 4990. How many children are there in the workhouse ? — We do not keep them in the workhouse. We board them out entirely. A few are taken in whose parents are in bride- well for thirty or sixty days. 4991. Do you find difficulty in raising the assessment? — No. There is occasionally some grumbling on the part of the rate-payers. 4992. In regard to deserted children and orphans, can you state how many there are of each ? — They are not separated. They could be stated from the books of the hospital. The financial department is not under my charge. I do not keep the number in my own book. I leave that to the governor. I give no money. 4993. Could you do it ? — It can be done from the hospital books, — my books contain the number of the cases visited. 4994. Has not the amount of the assessment increased greatly during the last five years .-' 4995. Is it doubled ? — It has doubled what it was some years ago. I have some documents here which show the increase. POOR LAW INQUIRY COIBOSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 289 499fi. Go back to 1837, state what is the gross sum of assessment ? — 10,241^. 8s. There was an additional sum put to the assessment then, a sum contributed by the merchants' and trades' houses, which is now withdrawn. 4997. Can you state the amount expended fortherelief of the poor in that year? — Total expenditure for the year, including surplus expenditure last year, and 1420/. 14s. 7d., struck off arrears of as,sesamoiit by the magistrates, 12,624/. 17s. 5d. That is the amount expended in 1837, ending August. The new act of Parliament brings us to May. 4998. What was it last year ?—18,00(W., some odds. 4999. Are you aware whether the population within the city has increased or decreased within the last ten years? — It has very materially increased. 5000. What is the increase ." — :The population of the city proper, including the harbour, is 122,878, that is for 1841; since 1831 it has increased 33,000. [" Abstract states of expenditure" from 1835 to 1841, inclusive, given in.] 5001. You mentioned that a number of disabled persons had come to town with the in- tention of receiving relief from the fund, — do you know if able-bodied persons have come with that view ? — 'A great many have applied to us. 5002. Do you know that they come with that intention ? — I have every reason to believe so. Some of them have avowed it. A widow with two children came acrosfi to us from Govan parish ; she avowed that her intention was to get on the city fund, because the pro- vision for the poor was better than in Govan parish. 5003. You mentioned that pauperism has increased by the getting up of cases from the unemployed, — how have you i-eceived such cases ? — They go. to. the relief committee first, and proper cases are referred to the hospital : they are then dealt with according to the circumstances in which they are placed. Some are aged and fit objects of charity, and get on the permanent roll. 5004. Had the persons applied previously to the kirk-sessions ? — No, they came to the hospital sent by the relief committee. 5005. Can you state the amount by which pauperism has increased from this ? — I can- not. 5006. But it is your opinion that the expenditure has been much increased by the cases so referred to? — Yes, it has much increased, no doubt of it. There is another cause of increase, which is, that since the distress became universal, numbers have applied for relief that formerly would not have done so : their friends will do nothing for them, saying that they pay the assessment. I speak of it as a matter of opinion, but I find it in practice. 5007. So that the assessment has been a cause of the increase ? — Yes, bringing the assessments to a lower class. Previously no person was assessed whose property was below 300/, now under the recent regulation a much lower class pay the assessment, and they say since I pay. Why should I not get a friend on the poor funds? 5008. Has the knowledge of there being a large assessment increased the number of the poor ? — I do not think it. They are not aware of the amount. It is not divulged till the end of the year. 5009. Do you suppose it has diminished private charity ? — Very greatly. 5010. Has it diminished the expressions of kindness from the poor towards one another ? — There is a certain class of the poor whose feelings do not change, — the inmates of brothels for instance. They are a very troublesome class to us. They keep up a sisterly feeling towards one another. The better sort of the poor continue to retain this feeling. I think it has changed the feelings of the middle classes of poor ; but this is a matter of opinion, more than a matter of fact. 5011. But in point of fact, do you find a class of persons asking for relief who did not apply before the operation of the new act 1 — Yes, that is a matter of fact. There seems to be an utter want of the impression in Scotland that children are obliged to maintain their parents. We have applications from parents whose children earn 11. a week. Some would beg rather than depend on their children for support. 5012. You are aware that in law a child is bound to support his parents ? — Yes. 5013. Has the law been enforced in any instance 1— -Not with us, 5014. When speaking of this feeling among children, do you refer to last year? — I refer generally, — there is a notion that they are not liable for their parents at all. 5015. Have you any experience of rural districts ? — No. 5016. Do you think the independent spirit of the poor has been diminished of late ! — Greatly, — it is completely sunk down. 5017. Would you apply that to the higher classes of working men ? — They are the worst characters, — that is to say, those who have the best wages, they are more dissipated and less provident. The weavers are the best class with us still,-r-the least troublesome, and the most industrious, although they receive the lowest wages ; and there is more comfort in their houses than in the houses of those who have greater wages. 5018. Has the indisposition of children to maintain their parents increased of late years? —I have only the experience of four years ; but I think that feeling prevailed previously in Scotland. 5019. I mean as to the fact of their actually maintaining them ? — I could not say so. 5020. You find that relations will not maintain their poor ? — ^Yes. 5021. Do you know if the application to you in such cases has increased of late years ?— All applications have increased of late,— they have increased twofold. 5022. Has intemperance increased or diminished in Glasgow of late ? — Diminished. I have the testimony of spirit-dealers in regard to this, who say they sell less spirits now thai) ? P ExaminationF. Mr W. Thomson. 27 March 1843. 290 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations. WrW. Thimison. ■a JIarcli 1U43. they did formerly. And I see persons who used to be intemperate now clothed better, and decent in their conduct. 5023. Is that among the Irish ? — Yes, greatly more among the Irish than others. 5024. Has their example not been followed by the Scotch 2 — Not to a great extent. A great number of the Irish have joined temperance societies. 5025. Has any harm been done by these temperance societies ? — The very reverse. They have been of great benefit. 502G. Do you think they combine for other purposes ? — I do not think it, so far as I have seen. They have been the cause of bringing comfort to many a poor man's fireside, where there was nothing but misery before. 5027. Do you think that diminishing the number of public houses would be attended with advantage ? — That is a problematical question. It is as easy to get drink in respect- able shops as in others less so. 5028. Could the police not put them down ! — The police will not enter a house, but under certain circumstances, if the door be shut. They have been annoyed frequently with actions for entering houses in an illegal way. But I do not feel myself competent to enter upon police matters. 5020. Do you see many of the able-bodied population among the lower orders? — I see all classes. 5030. Is there much destitution among the able-bodied ? — It is not my duty to enter into the houses of the able-bodied ; but a good many say they are destitute. The relief com- mittee will be able to state the number of applications to them. 5031 . Do you observe any reluctance in the better class of workmen to apply for parochial relief? — Not reluctance, but the very reverse. Whenever the least sickness comes upon them, they are very ready to come on the parish at once, and seek assistance. 5032. From your observation, would it be possible to discontinue the assessment gra- dually in Glasgow, and maintain the poor by collections at the church doors ? — I do not tliink it possible. The experiments tried in diff'erent parishes completely failed. 5033. Why did the experiment in St John's parish fail ? — A great proportion of the parishioners are dissenters, and do not go to the parish church. It appears to me unrea- sonable that the church-going population of the Establishment should support the poor, and dissenters not. The collections are small, — the people will not in this way give relief to the extent that destitution requires. 5034. But were the poor not more provident in that parish, on account of the collections being small 1 — I have not the means of knowing ; but the applications for parochial relief have increased considerably since. 5035. Do you know any other parish in which the experiment was made and failed ? — The preface to our "regulations" state the number of parishes that tried the experiment and failed, — St Enoch's, St James', St David's, St George's, and St Paul's. 503G. Why did they fail ? — After a certain time the collections fell off. There was a little excitement at first ; but the collections fell off gradually'. 5037. Did they find that the people became more provident 1 — That does not appear. .5038. Did relations help each other sufficiently ? — I did not work in any of these parishes, and I cannot say. The parish that I was working in at the time was too poor to hazard the experiment. 5039. Can you state the reason of the failures in any of these parishes .'' — I had no other cognizance in regard to them than what was generally understood. 5040. You do not know anything, from your personal knowledge, of the working of the system in St John's .' — No. 5041. Can you state to what extent it was adopted in St Enoch's? — I believe it was pretty extensively tried. 5042. Did they engage to relieve the town's hospital of their poor ? — I do not know the engagement, — it was previous to my appointment. I find among the tables, that the report of the collections in St Enoch's parish is not stated for the year 1829-30. They must have been applying them all to their own poor. They drew 30/. from the hospital. 5043. For what purpose ? — I do not know for what purpose ; but it appears to be the amount of one draft. 5044. Can you state whether the " ordinary poor," mentioned in this table, means the sessional poor, or the town's hospital poor .'' — I cannot answer that. I found difficulty in getting correct information, as Mr Grant, the treasurer at the time, is an aged person, and he could not furnish me with such minute details as I wished. The table contains a com- parison of the amount of the poor, and the expenditure in 1829-30, and 1836-37. [" Re- port of the Committee," 1838, which contains the table alluded to, given in.] 5045. Have you reason to think that the table is accurate ? — Yes ; I am responsible for its accuracy. 504 (). You were in Glasgow at the time that St John's was under this peculiar manage- ment ? — Yes. 5047. Why were you not induced to imitate the example in your parish ? — We had no means of doing it. The amount of our collections would not have defrayed one-hundredth part of the expenditure required. Very few of our congregation paid assessment. 5048. What^ parish ? — The High Church parish, inhabited chiefly by the humbler classes. 5049. Does anything suggest itself to you in regard to an alteration in the Scotch poor law 1. — We feel the present law of settlement to be a great evil. It is desirable that there should be one uniform law of settlement over the whole of Britain. * i POOK LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLANT). 291 5050. Have you many paupers returned to Glasgow who had been residing in England ? — Yes ; frequently we have persons sent to us from England whose history we cannot trace at all. — no person being found to know them. 5051. What change should be made in the law of settlement ? — There should be one uni- form law of settlement prevailing over England, Scotland, and Ireland. 5052. Would from three to seven years be a desirable extension 1 — Yes ; it would be a very great protection to us. A uniform law we most anxiously desire, as we do not know how to deal with persons from England. 5053. Have you many cases that you wish to send back to England ? — We have applica- tions from persons from England who have not obtained a three years' settlement. They seem to expect far more than we can give them, even for temporary relief. 5054. Can you give us a statement of the number of such cases ? — No ; these cases do not fall under my charge. My charge is the regular poor. 5055. Who takes charge of these 1 — Mr Ross. He passes all vagrants. He has authority from the relief committee to send off all such applicants to their own parishes. The relief committee pay the expenses of their passages, — they are chiefly from Ireland and the highlands. 5056. How do the Scotchmen arrive from England ? — By vessels. We have frequently just their own statement that they were born in Glasgow. We find them in a state of great destitution ; and some of them here but a short while. 5057. Do you find any defect in the present law of settlement, between parish and parish, in Scotland ? — We are at a loss as to the law. I am to take the opinion of counsel before I return, in regard to the point, whether a vagrant or beggar is able to obtain a settlement by begging three years in the parish. We consider that industrial residence only is the law. If we are wrong in this, and it should be found that three years' begging will gain a settle- ment, we must apply to have it altered immediately. 5058. Has begging increased or diminished of late years ? — It has very greatly increased. The magistrates have adopted measures to put it down completely, by ordering the police of the City, Anderston, Calton, and Gorbals, to bring in the beggars. The parish-officers attend at the police-office in the evening, and examine them, and send them to the proper quarter for parochial relief. If they belong to distant parishes, they are sent home if they go. If they are brought in a third time, they are punished. 5059. If they are able-bodied, do you send them home 1 — If found begging, we send them home, — that constitutes our reason for sending parties home. 5060. Are you satisfied that the law in all other respects is right ? — I have nothing to object in regard to the law otherwise. The point of the law of settlement is the only one which my constituents instructed me to bring under your notice. 5061. Have you anything of your own to suggest? — It would be rash in me to say any- thing now in regard to a change in the law, not having time to think of the subject, 5062. In regard to the mode of relieving the immediate necessities of the poor, how do you proceed? — 213 elders and deacons are appointed. The city is divided into 213 districts, and an elder or a deacon is chosen for each district. When a person feels himself destitute, he goes to the deacon or the elder of his district, and states his circum- stances. The elder or deacon has it in his power to grant immediate relief, without even a moment''s delay. The amount given in this way is sometimes very considerable, in the course of a week or a month. It carries the poor person on till the next meeting of the committee or session, according as the case may be. There is a statement which I have here, in which I find one elder giving 17s. 6d. to sundry poor persons; another giving 10s. 6d., another 19s. 3d., another 21s., in the course of a month. These sums are drawn from the town's hospital, under the head extra ; and this explains the title extra in the tables. 5063. Do you find a great difference among elders as to facility in giving relief? — A great difference. Some send the case down at once to the hospital ; others, if they see that a small sum will serve in the meantime, give it, — Is. or 6d. at a time, by way of temporary relief; and this does more good than when the poor person is exposed to the gaze of per- sons down the way. 5064. Is relief of this kind granted to parties whether they have obtained a settlement or not ?— Frequently. 5065. Without any distinction ? — If the case is one of great distress, relief is not refused, because the person has not a settlement. In regard to fever cases there is no distinction ; they are sent to the infirmary at once. We claim again on the parishes where the parties were bom, and we have generally got them to pay our claim. There can be no case in Glasgow that may not receive immediate relief, — at least there should not be. No doubt, there may be cases of distress concealed from us — respectable persons, who will not apply ; but immediately that distress is made known it is promptly relieved. Examinations. Mr W. Thomson. 27 March ia4 f. 293 Kxamiu&tiona. 28 March 1843. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE T4JvEN BEFOEE THE Tuesday, 28lar«h 1843. 5083. How is the parish sui-veyor checked to show that he omita none liable ? — I am not Exnminations sure that there is a very accurate check upon th^t. 5084. Would you tlilnk it better to have a half-yearly audit than a yearly ? — I think so, 5085. Which would you prefer — (quarterly or half-yearly ? — I should prefer quarterly j because tlie half-year is sometimes heavy work. I may be allowed to say there may be a check on the surveyor, because the rental of the parish is known. He must produce the corresponding siu-vey. There will be an filtcration every year. I have put into my pocket one of the balance-sheets, which is at your service if you wish it. 5086. Have you any suggestions to make with regard to auditing the accounts in country parishes ?— I do not know from experience about the way in which the accounts of country parishes are kept. I should think that could be very easily managed. But I know some- thing of the charity workhouse, Edinburgh ; and their system — I have no reason whatever to say it is not one which represents faithfiilly all the transactions of the house. ' But still I find tault with it as I did with the system that existed in the West Church, before my put- ting it on its present footing. I have looked frequently as an official manager into the books ; but it is very difficult to understand them. I think the system I introduced appli- cable to all large towns. Then the recommendation of that system is, that if the entries are right they make a balance. And then it is a system which is intelligible ; and further, that at any given time you could balance the books. There is another thing I may be allowed to say, and I say it disinterestedly. Managers are not good auditors in general. They do the duty gratuitously. Some attend irregularly ; and the work is gone over superficially. 5087. Is there any other suggestion you could favour us with ? — Nothing occurs to me, But if anything should occur to me, I shall be happy to communicate it. Dr Steven, Governor of George Heriot's Hospital, Re-examined : — 5088. AYhen you left last you carried with you an account of the diiFerent institutions in foreign countries relative to the poor ? — I did so at the desire of the Commission. 5089. T)id you pay attention to what relates to Holland? — I read it p.^er, and consider it gives a very fair account of the state of things there, 50'JO. You found it in that work of Mr Senior's ? — Yes, in his book enatled " A Statement of the Provisions of the Poor, and the condition of the Labouring Claajes qn the Continent, By Nassau William Senior, Esq." 5091. And looking at the part about Holland, you found it correct? — -Yes, upon the whole. 5092. Can you teU us how the mendicity or home colonies work in Holland? — So far as I know they have wrought well. But I have not had my mind particularly directed to them. I believe they are prospering. 5093. You observe No. 107, a statement of the number of people who, for the ten years from 1821 to 1831, were relieved ; and the number went on progressively increasing during the whole of that period : have you reason to believe that since that period the number has remained stationary, decreased or hicreased ? — The number of paupers has decreased, so I have been informed. 5094. Are you aware whether any change has taken place in the management to which you can attribute the decrease ? — I know the ecclesiastical officers have been particularly active since the Revolution in 1830. They are a very enlightened body of men. I speak of the deacons of the Dutch church. 5095- Ilave you seen any tables that show there is a decrease in the number of paupers? — I hold in my hand a pamphlet in the Dutch language, by Mr H. van Loghem, member of the States of the provence of Overyssel, and secretary to the town of Deventer. He is an advocate. This was printed at Deventer in 1838 ; and the statement I have made on tliat point I derived from this source, which I consider a very authentic one — one that may be credited. 5096. And it shows a decrease in the number of paupers between the yeafs 1830 ancl and 1838 ?— ^A decrease, so fiir as the whole kingdom is concenjed- 5097. To what cause is that decrease attributed, can you inform me ?— I believe, as I said just now, that the ecclesiastical persons have been more active, perhaps, in procuring the donations of charitable pei-sons, or in getting employment for individuals who would otherr. wise have been thrown upon the charity of the churches. These ecclesiastical persons are extremely active not only in visiting the families of persons in distress, in employing poor tradesmen and labourers not only in their own families, but in getting their relations and acquaintance to employ them. 5098. Then you attribute the decrease to the judiciou? management of the deacons ? — In a great degree, though, no doubt, there must be other causes. 5099. Do persons" in a state of poverty in Holland seem supported in a comfortable state ? — They seem comfortable. They do not receive much weekly aKrnent. I never saw any- thing ragged or loathsome about them. They were always cleanly and comfortable.^ In almost every town in Holland there are soup-kitchens, where the poor receive a certain portion of soup, I have been in such kitchens, and know they are very well conducted. ^ The best butcher meat is procured for the purpose of making the soup ; and many of the consistories, aa well as private individuals, pm-chase tickets and give them to poor families, hi order that they may receive their portions, according to the number in their families. In the church with which I was connected — the Scotch church at Rotterdam — Qur deaQons frequently purchased auch tlcketa for the purpose of giving to poor families. Dr Steven, 294 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxauiiiiatious. Dr Steven. 28 March 1843. 5100. Ai-e soup-kitchens put in operation by private subscriptions ? — By private subscrip- tions. 5101. Have you visited the penal colonies of Holland, where mendicants are sent? — I have not. 5102. Tlierc is; no relief for able-bodied mendicants ; is that in consequence of their being sent to the home penal settlements ? — Tlie relief is temporary. 5103. In applying any of the Dutch laws to Scotland, would it be possible to prevent men- dicity without the restrictions which alrciidy -exist in force in Scotland ? — I have not exactly made up my mind so as to be able to answer that question at once. 5104. A\ ithout altering the practice in Scotland? — I think, with regard to Scotland, it would be very desirable that ecclesiastical persons should be combined with some respect- able lay members of the church or congregation, or parish ; and if so many of them had charge of a section of the parish, perhaps in that way good might be done. I think a large sum ought not to be given to poor persons, — any sum which would induce them to become idle, or to become reckless in any way. The Dutch working classes seem to me much more j)rovident, and much more comfortable in their general appearance and in their families, than the same class in this country. 5105. More temperate ? — Much more temperate. Suppose an Edinburgh parish were given in charge to a certain number of ecclesiastical persons, and others who may not be elders or deacons connected with the particiUar parish, whether churchmen or dissenters ; and if they had occasional meetings (it would be necessary that they shoiJd have general meetings so that they might act in concert), a gi-eat deal might be done in that way, and perhaps by giving, in an inclement season, some extra charity. I should be extremely sorrj-, for the sake of my countrymen, if any of them became paupers for want of a little temporary aid, timely and judiciously given. There are many individuids and families who, if assisted dm-ing the inclemency of winter, might be able to resume their avocations in society again; and if it were done with prudence by the body (it ought not to be a large body) inti-usted with the duty, the deserving objects of charity would not feel it themselves, and it would not affect their character in society. But if they were known as regular paupers, they would be apt to become perfectly indifferent, and continue on your roU for ever. In Holland that has been done with the hajipiest results. 5106. With regard to the question of mendicancy, do you not consider the two countries would be in totally different situations, if no means such as exist in Holland were used to check mendicancy ? — It is to be hoped that the existing state of things will not long continue. I hope it is merely a temporary thing ; but if something could be done in a private way, by ecclesiastical and other persons visiting the houses of such parties, and giving them their best counsel and christian advice, and a little alnas, much evil, which we unfortunately have to deplore, woidd be removed. 5107. The point is with regard to a general system; — it appears that the system in Hol- land answers perfectly ; but that severe measures are resorted to : Do you think that such would do here ? — I believe no such mode could be resorted to. In this country it would be out of the question to think of sending any of our paupers to home colonies. 5108. But a well regxdated workhouse ? — I should not like to see any of my countrymen, able-bodied mendicants, sent to workhouses, for the same reason that I stated before. AVhen once they are known as public paupers, they are apt to become perfectly indifferent, and to remain on your hands ; so I think some temporary relief preferable. 5109. But the question is rather with regard to the class of beggars, — those who are in the habit of begging ? — I understand : it is to remedy the existing state of matters. I have just said, that I am sorry to mention that many of our countrymen are so improvident, as compared with the Dutch of the same class, that I am afraid it would be extremely difficult to devise any measure by which their distress coidd be permanently alleviated, or themselves prevented from becoming public beggars ; but I sincerely trust the present pressure wiU be speedily removed. 5110. With regard to industrious labourers, you would propose occasional relief during three or four months in the year ? — I should be disposed to recommend occasional relief. 5111. What would be the effect of that in inducing employers to give lower wages when they had work to give ? — I think it would not. If the parishes were subdivided, and placed imder the inspection of our elders and (Mhere there are deacons) of the deacons ; for I con- gider that an extremely interesting and valuable body of men, and I deeply regi'et that the Church of Scothmd does not now avail herself of such officers as she did formerly ; for I conceive the deacons of the Dutch Keformed Church the most useful body of men, with reference to the poor, that I ever knew. 5112. But if you were to give relief to the poor during three or four months in the year, would they not have a motive for improvidence ? — The individuals who woidd have the superintendance could take care of that; they might be able to prociu-e some employment for them. 5113. With regard to their improvidence, do you think any superintendence could pre- vent improvidence, when a boon was held out for three or four months ? — In some cases not, but I think jthe surest way is to educate the people, — to give good religious and moral training. 5114. But even with that, on the principles of human nature, would not relief for three or four months make them improvident ? — I don't anticipate that. The individuals who have a sort of paternal cliarge over them, would by moral suasion induce many of them to amend their manners. I should be extremely sorry that Scotchmen should claim as a right any pittance from public charity. 5115. But if, practically, your system insured a certain extent of provision during three or POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 295 four months, would they not be able to calculate on that though they had no legal right ? — Examination*; There is no question some would do that ; but I should fondly hope a small proportion. 51 IG. Are there not some occupations in which, during winter, individuals necessarily os Maich^isis. cannot obtain work ? — There are such occupations. 5117. Then, ou^ht not the wages given when they can obtain work to be sufficient to maintain them during the whole year ? — In some cases it might be so, but it de])ends so much on circumstances, some men have large families. In some departments, employment is uncertain ; even in the summer months they cannot calcidate on employment, and, unfor- tunately, many want habits of providence. 5118. But would not a person who was giving his labour for good wages during the perioii». Dr Steven. 28 March IB4H. " THE HERIOT FOUNDATION SCHOOLS. Geokge Heriot's Hospital, 184 . Sir, — I beg respectfully to inform you, that it is your turn, along with to visit the Heriot schools, during the fortnight which commences oh Sabbath the . Should circumstances render It inconvenient for you to attend, have the goodness to provide a substitute. I am. Sir, your most obedient Servant, Wm. Steven, House-Gov., and Inspector of the Heriot Schools, School hours. — Sahhath evenings, from 6 to half-past 7 o'clock ; Week days, from 9 to 12, and from 1 to 3 o'clock, The Infant schools are open from 10 to 12, and from 1 to 3 o'clock, on the week days only. The Heriot Schools. — 1. Heriot Bridge, Grassmarket ; 2. Old Assembly Close, High Street ; 3. ditto ditto, Infant school, — under the same roof ; 4. Borthwick Close, High Street ; 5. Cowgate Port ; 6. High School Yards, Surgeon Square ; 7. ditto ditto, Infant school, — under the same roof.— A'^ B. A Minute-book lies in each school-room for the remarks of the governors," Tfiursday, Sd April 1843, JIEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, I Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., and Edward Twisleton, Esq. LORD VTSCOL^T MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. David Monypenny, Esq., Examined : — 5137. You were formerly one of the judges of the Court of Session ? — I was. 5138. You have had frequent occasion when a judge, and since, to pay attention to the Scottish poor laws ? — Yes. 5139. You are aware that a considerable discussion has been going on of late years on the subject ? — Yes. 5140. And that it has been a good deal agitated in the jiublic mind? — Yes. 5141. You are acquainted with the practical operation of the law, as well as with the legal (luestion ? — I am acquainted with the practical ojjeration of it ; but not so much as with tlie legal question. 5142. Does your acquaintance with its practical operation extend to i-ural districts merely, 2 Q Mr Monypenny. 3 April 1843. 298 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Examinations. Mr Monypenny. 3 April 1843. or partly to rural and partly to town districts ? — Chiefly to rural districts, and to towns such as St Andi'ews, which comprehends, as well as the city, a large rural district in which I am an heritor. 5143. You are aware of the recent decision by the Court of Session, as to their power of reviewing the decisions of kirk-sessions ? — I am, in the case of Ceres. 5144. Are you of opinion that any change in the poor law of Scotland would be expedient or inexpedient, or in what respect would you propose a change ? — I think the general system is good, and I would not propose any change in it ; but there are details which might admit of amendment. 5145. Do you contemplate any authority to control the kirk-sessions in their mode of adminis- tering relief, or in its amount ? — I should not tliink that anything of that sort was necessary, beyond what exists at present, — the control of the Court of Session. 514G. Does it appear to you that the Court of Session is competent practically to go into details ? — I think it would be inexpedient to give a power of control to the sheriff, or to any inferior court. I look on the kirk-session as partly a board of provision for the poor, and partly an inferior court ; and it would be contrary to principle, to give a power of review to any other inferior court. I can see no other way than vesting that power in the Court of Session. Certainly such an arrangement is attended with difficulties ; but I can see no other plan so advantageous on the whole. 5147. Have you found, in the districts with which you are acquainted, that the provision for the poor has been sufficient for their legal sustentation ? — I suppose it is occasionally not quite sufficient. It might admit of being increased in many cases, if there were fimds for it ; but the only general rule I could lay down on that subject is, that I think La Scotland it should be held that the allowance to the poor should not exceed the minimum of the allow- ance to the lowest class of labourers. I think that is the only rule that should be laid down. It is more applicable in Scotland than in England, because wages in England were affected by the poor's rates, which never was the case in this country. 5148. In any allowance which you would give by the ku-k-session, you would not con- template their being allowed to beg in addition to it ? — Certainly not. 5149. And, therefore, if in any of the large to^vn8 public begging were permitted, you would infer that the allowance was insufficient ? — ^Yes, if public begging was considered to be a part of their means of sustentation. 5150. Have you formed any opinion as to the possibility, either in rural districts, or still more in large towns, of following out to any considerable extent Dr Chalmers' system of maintaining the poor by voluntary contributions or collections at the church doors ? — I never could see any objections to his plan as carried on in St John's parish, Glasgow. It has never been tried elsewhere to any extent that I loiow of; and I cannot sec why it should not succeed, if the parishes were either increased in number or subdivided. 5151. Are you aware that the plan has been tried elsewhere ? — I do not know that it has been tried any where else to any extent. 5152. You would consider it indispensable, in order to carry it properly into effect, that a large parish should be divided ? — Yes. 5153. Do you tliink that the system in burghs, of the poor being under the control of magistrates and town-council, is an expedient system ? — No, I think they should all be com- mitted to the kirk-sessions, which should be increased in number according to the population of the jilace. I would introduce the parochial system in burghs as well as in country parishes. 5154. And that would be one of the alterations in the law which you would contemplate? — Certainly. 5155. When you referred to the case of Ceres, did you mean to express any opinion as to the judgment ? — I only considered the question of competency, I have no doubt that the Coiu-t of Session is competent to review the decisions of kirk-sessions ; but as to the merits of the claim in the particular case, I did not form any opinion. 5156. I understood you to say, that in any case brought before the Court of Session, you considered it to be competent in the court to decide not only as to the person being entitled to relief, but also as to the amount of relief that ought to be given ? — ^The proper course is for the court of session to remit to the kirk-session to re-consider the case, and to suggest what they considered proper; and if the kirk-session refuse to increase the allowance, the Court of Session must, as I think, fix the amount. 5157. Would it be desirable to have no appeal from the kirk-session? — I think it would be very improper if there was to be no appeal from the kirk-session. 5158. You said you thought it necessary that Ld Scotland regard should be had, in fixing the allowance, to the minimum of wages gained by labourers of the lowest class, and that this was more necessary in Scotland than in England, because wages in England were affected by the poor rates. In what way are wages affi;cted by the poor rates ? — I think they are reduced considerably. 5159. In what manner? — A number of poor men are called to work, and this I shoidd suppose lowers the wages. 5160. Are you referring to the new poor law, or the old poor law ? — I was thinking of the old poor law, certainly. I should think that the workhouse lowers them too ; but I only meant to say, that, in regard to Scotland, with which I am best acquainted, the general rule above stated, is free from any objection. 5161. You were refeiTing to allowance in aid of wages ? — Yes, in England. 5162. Supposing there is no allowance in aid of wages in some parts of England, the same principle would apply equally ? — I am not so well acquainted with the English system as to speak confidently on the subject. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 299 5163. "Would you propose that new churches should be built? — Yes, or a subdivision of parishes. New churches would be more effectual, certainly. 5164. If the administration in towns were left to kirk-sessions, would you contemplate the abolition of assessments entirely ? — I shoidd hope it would tend to abolish assessments gra- dually, if the system were fairly dealt by. _ ■ _ 5165. Would the money raised by the kirk-sessions, by voluntary contributions and col- lections at the church doors, be more than the money raised by assessment ? — I think means might be taken to make it so. 5166. Are you aware whether, in the parishes in Scotland in which assessments have been abolished, the sum contributed for the relief of the poor has been less under assessments than under the system of collections at the church doors ? — I believe it has been so found. 5167. Do you know whether, in St John's parish, Glasgow, the sum obtained by collec- tions at the chui-ch doors was greater than the sum previously obtained by assessments ? — It is a lono- time since I looked into that case ; but I certainly understood it to be so. 5168. Then, in proposing a substitution of collections for assessments, you would deprecate less money being given to the poor ? — I should expect more money would be given to the poor. 5169. Would you suggest any alterations in the law, in regard to settlement, or in regard to any other part ? — I am averse to suggest ; but shall answer any questions that may be put to me. 5170. Do you conceive that the law of settlement, as it is at present understood in Scot- land, is an expedient system ? — I think there is considerable difficidty attending any law of settlement ; but the present being the established law, and understood in the country, and having been matured and fixed by the judgments of the supreme court, and by long usage, I think it should not be altered. It is better and simpler than any other rule. 5171. Supposing the place of birth were to be adopted as the only rule of settlement, would such a rule be inexpedient ? — I do not think that the place of birth would afford so expedient and just a rule as the place of industrial residence does. 5172. Do you mean to say, that you would prefer the present settlement of three years' residence to any extended period ? — I have not seen any strong reason for an alteration. 5173. How would you deal with dissenters ? — There is no way of dealing with them but by an assessment. If dissenters come to increase in the way that is threatened, it will be necessary to impose an assessment in parishes in which their numbers are greatly increased. It may be varied according to circumstances. 5174. Would you give dissenters no share in the administration of the poor fiinds? — ^I would not give them any, I would have the established kirk-sessions to administer the fund. 5175. Woidd not the rate-paying dissenters object to the funds being distributed by per- sons of a different denomination from themselves ? — Very likely they might. Examiiiiitions. Mr Monvpemiv. 3 April 1843.' Mr John Hunter, Session-clerk of Canongate, Re-examined : — 5176. Can you inform the Commission, after referring to the minutes of the kirk-session of Canongate, whether at any time the system introduced and recommended by Dr Chal- mers for supporting the poor by collections exclusively, has been tried in the Canongate ? — It has, — it commenced in August 1821. 5177. How long did it continue? — TUl about April 1823 or thereabouts [witness pro- duced the minutes of session, containing the division of the parish into districts, and the instructions to the elders.J 5178. Can you inform us why the system was given up ? — It was given uj) for two reasons. In the first place, the managers of the charity workhouse would interfere, and we held that the kirk-session only should act in the admmistration. In the second place, we found that we coidd not get on without an assessment, the collections were so small. The following is a statement of the amount of collections at the door of the Canongate church : — From the 16th April 1820 to IGth April 1821, ... 16th ... 1821 ...16th ... 1822, ... 16th ... 1822 ... 16th ... 1823, ... 16th ... 1823 ... 16th ... 1824, 16th ... 1823 ... 16th August same year, 5179. Is there nothing stated in the minutes as to the reason why the system was aban doned ? — No. 5180. Is there nothing stated as to it in any other minute ? — I am not certain. I have the minute-books here. [Witness referred to several minutes, but foimd no statement to that effect.] 5181. You state that the mode of relieving the poor according to Dr Chalmers' system, which had been adopted in the Canongate parish in August 1821, and given up in 1823, was necessarily given up in consequence of the deficiency of the funds ? — Partly so, that is my impression. 5182. Have you any reason to suppose, that if it had been persevered in the funds would have become sufficient ? — I am convinced they would not. Mr J. Hunter. 151 18 IH 179 10 4 143 10 7 143 6 10* 47 4 Oi 300 MINUTES OF P:VIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiiiiimtions. 5183. You are of opinion that under that system you would have been compelled to resort to an assessment ? — Yes ; I am quite convinced of it. I may state, that all our children 3' Ai.rU "843*^' ^''^^^ ''^nt to the country to board except four, — two of them were servants, and two had arn\ed at that age that we were looking after situations for them. We found that the children were not kept in the way we wished ; and after being out for some time, we thought it better to return them to the charity workhouse. 5184. It appears from one of the books that the committee was appointed in December 1822 to visit the poor along with the elders, and that Mr Lothian was appointed convener of that committee, — is he alive ? — No. 5185. "VN'ill you read from the session-book the original agreement in which the session took cliargc of the administration of the poor funds ? — The following is the minute : — " 5th July 1821. — The committee recommend to the session to take charge of the out-pensioners, and all the new cases, resendng to the managers of the poor's house to maintain the paupers at present in the house upon the assessment, and understanding that if the fund imdcr the administration of the session fall short, the heritors will make the 8a;me good out of the jissessment ; and if the funds under the administration of the session afford a surplus, it shall be paid over to the poorshouse quarterly as formerly, it being understood that the mana- gers continue to support the children and lunatics under their care, but to receive no more into the house, and only continue the out-pensioners till the session talic them oif their hand." 5186. Was that recommendation acted on ? — Yes, I see it was, as \vill be shewn by the following minute of 6th August 1821 : — " The session then took into their consideration the recommendation from the heritors respecting the management of the poor ; also the minutes of the joint committees of heritors and session on the same business, Avith the whole pro- ceedings that have taken place thereanent. Resolve to give the new plan for supporting the poor a fair trial from the collections and other funds under their administration, without the aid of an assessment, and to take the burden of new cases of paupei's that may occur in the parish, and also all the paupers on the pension list of the charity work house." 5187. Although no allusion is made m that minute to the understanding that the heritors were to supply the fvmds from the assessment, if collections were not sufficient, you have no doubt that the understanding in fact existed ? — I have no doubt as to this, — it existed. 5188. Supposing there had been no understanding in the j)arish that any deficiency of the funds would have been supplied by the heritors from assessments, do you not think the col- lections at the church doors would have been greater ? — I do not know but they might, but pot to the extent of assessment. Mr John Gray. Mr John Gray, Re-examined : — 5189. "Wliat is your opinion as to the propriety of vesting the management of the poor in the city altogether in kirk-sessions, as distinguished from the present management ?— I fear it would be too exclusive ; my opinion is, that it would be so. When one party are set above another, and have a preference given to them, it is much calcidated whether it ope- rate for good or bad, to irritate the opposite party, who consider themselves equal to the other in all respects, but are not placed on an equal footing with them. When this is the case, it acts as a bane in society. I think it would be much better to give it_a something larger basis. 5190. Are you afraid there would be partiality on the part of kirk-sessions ? — I think that I would have a feeling that way, whether it ever took place or not. A small matter would lead me to think there was partiality ; and owing to this circumstance, I would be apt to think it greater than it might turn out to be in reality, if properly inquired into. 5191. Would there be a feeling of that kind among dissenters generally? — Yes. 5192. Supposing a certain portion given to dissenters to distribute among their own body, would you object to that, — -giving to each class a sum to be distributed among the poor of their own body, — would you entertain any objection to that plan ? — As an individual I would entertain none ; but I think it woidd be a narrow plan. 1 woidd rather be fur plac- ing the matter in a general body, such as a board of management elected by the rate-payers, who have all an interest in the proper management of the poor. I think as a plan, that this would give more general satisfaction. 5193. Would there be no advantage in connecting religious and moral instruction with the relief of the poor ? — If you give money to any persons requiring it from necessity, cer- tainly there is a good opportunity of instracting them in religion when administering to their temporal wants ; but if this administration were given to any particular bodj', it would act, as ihave described, as a bane, and be prejudicial to that good will that ought to subsist among all. I am inclined to think that a general board should be elected from the rate- payers to manage the matters from the collection to the distribution ; and if religious instruc- tion is necessarj', — and I think it is, — it would be better for each party to raise voluntary subscriptions among their own class, and then with it to administer religious instruction according to their own tenets or views, no person having any ground of quarrel with them. 5194. Wovdd there not be a difficulty in raising voluntai-y contributions when it is known that there is no assessment ? — No doubt the vohmtary contributions would not amount to so much in that case, but at present they exist. Almost all the body of dissentei"s have a voluntary ftmd from which they give the poor belonging to their own body some small assist- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 301 ance along with the regular parish sum that is given to them. I see no reason why the esta- blishment should not be on the same footing with the dissenters in this way. 5195. Supposing poor persons to be entirely dependent on the elders of the religious body to which they belong, woidd there not be more ample means of religious and moral super- intendence in such a system ? — I quite agree that it woidd be a good way of conveying reli- gions instruction to the poor and destitute, when accompanied with the means to relieve their temporal wants ; but how to bring that about without interfering with the different sects, seems not to be very clear to my mind. 5196. Supposing the moral and religious effect produced by visitors in this way was greater, would not that counterbalance any feeling of jealousy that might arise ? — I think, if the fund was equally distributed among dissenters and the establishment, it might have a tendency to remove it in a great measure, — indeed to remove it altogether. 5197. Why, then, call it a narrow system ? — I have not been accustomed to think of public matters being gone about in that way. As an Intlividual, I feel as if there were a narrow- ness about it. I would nmch rather s.ee the matter managed by a body generally approved of; and if people wished in addition to that to give religious instniction, let them take the next best means that occurred to them for so doing. Examinations. Mr John Gi'ay. 3 April 1IJ43, Mt John Clarky Examined : — 5198. You are overseer of the labourers employed In the Meadows? — Yes. 5199. Have you been accustomed to superintend work of the description going on there? — Not much. ' I was In business as a victual-dealer for a long' time. 5200. What number are under your charge at present ? — This day there are 505. 5201. What allowance do they get a day? — There are eighty-two at 9d., twenty-eight at 8d., the rest at 6d. 5202. Are any of them employed on piece-work ? — None. 5203. What are they doing ? — Breaking stones, quarrying, and laying the metal on the Meado'w walk. 5204. Are there any inspectors under you ? — Yes, one in the quarry, another who super- Intends the stone-breaking, and a third who supermtends the laying on. 5205. The broken stones are employed in making the road ? — Yes. 5206. Is the superintendence sufficient for the niunber of men working ? — I think It Is. 5207. Do you find that they work attentively and steadily? — Yes, they work pretty attentively, though they do not work very hard, not being supported so as to enable them to work a hard day's work. 5208. Have they given you any trouble about the terms of employment ? — I have heard them murmm^ng,— not that they disturbed us In any way, — but they seemed dissatisfied with the different rules and regulations by the committee. In consequence of their pay being reduced. 5209. What was the pay before ? — On the 20th June, when the work opened first, It was Is. 2d. per day for the whole of them without distinction. 5210. Was the work of aU these men worth Is. 2d. per day ?-^— The work done was never measured, and that has not been ascertained exactly. 5211. Was Is. 2d. the usual wages for persons of that description? — No, Is. 8d. a day was the usual wages. 5212. But were those people capable of working a full day^ work of able-bodied men ? — No, they had not all been labourers, and could not do so. 5213. Am I to understand, that a class of them were paid at a higher rate than their work was worth ? — No doubt this might be the case with the men who were tradesmen. 5214. And were these men dissatisfied with the regular terms ?^ — No ; they knew that they got all that tlie committee could allow them, and they seemed satisfied. 5215. Was there any dispute arose lately by the men threatening to leave their work ?^- Yes, on account of the reduction. 5216. AVhat was the particular reduction ? — The reduction down to 6d. a day. One class Cmarried men) were reduced to lOd., efficient single men to 8d., and Inefficient men to 6d. It was on the Introduction of these rules that a dispute arose. 5217. Did they strike work? — They stopped for two days, alleging that 6d. was not suf^ ficlent to support them, and that they would make more by begging in the town, 5218. Was there any regulation about piece-work that was objected to? — There was, — they objected to the 3d. a yard for breaking stones, as being too little. 5219. What sort of stone was it that was broken at 3d. a yard ? — A coarse fi-eestone, from the quarry up in the Links. 5220. To what size were the stones broken ? — Tq go through a two-Inch ring. 5221. Do you conceive that persons accustomed to break stones could have orciken them cheaper than at that rate ? — No ; I believe that no man could break them cheaper thaji 8d. a yard,— at any rate, no man could make 2s, a day by the work, 5222. Was that regulation persisted In ? — It was yielded so far, that the committee have paid 6d. a day. 5223. Then you gave up piece-work? — Yes; there was not as much as would yiel4 them 6d. 5224. Were the men successftd in resisting being paid by piece-work ? — Noj^I Cftimot Mr John Clark. 302 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, say they were. The committee did not give up their rules, but the men did not get a suflS- Mr John Clark. rooc a ^i • i i, • ^ o kt- 3 Ai>ril 1843. 0220. Are they paid by piece-work f — iSo. 5226. "Were there printed regidations requiring them to be paid by piece-work ? — Yes. 5227. Were the men not then successful? — They got rid of piece-work till once we had a sufficient qusmtity of unbroken stones for them to break. 5228. "NVliat was your trade or occupation immediately previous to your being appointed overseer in this work ? — I was two years and a half with ^Ix Ramsay, inspector of police, as one of the overseers of the scavengers. 5229. Had you, in that capacity, anything to do with the breaking of stones ? — No. 5230. Are you capable of stating how much of the stone in the Meadows could be broken by a labourer in a day ? — Yes ; I think a good liand coiUd break two yards of it in a day ; that is from my observation on the matter. 5231. Not more? — No, I do not think it. 5232. You formed that idea merely fi-om seeing the stones broken before you? — ^Yes, and seeing what a man could do wlien supplied with stones. Mr Home said it was a much tougher stone than he expected, and that a man coidd break as much of the castle-rock in a day ; and this, he said, he would not have believed till he tried it. 5233. Was any one ill-treated by the unemployed a fortnight or three weeks ago ? — I be- lieve that some of those who commenced work one morning were ill-treated by some of those who were off" work. 5234. Where were you at that time ? — It was up the Links where the men had gone to work where the ill-treatment took place. There Mas no violence used in my presence at the place where we collected the men in the morning, and put them on the roll. We en- rolled 200 that morning who were willing to work ; and the other party followed them, and chased them off the ground. 5235. Are many of them Irishmen ? — Yes ; I believe at least three to two. 5236. Of what classes are the Scotchmen who are employed? — Some of them have been bred to labour ; and the greater part of them are artizans. 5237. Of what classes? — They are all of one class now. 5238. But of what classes of trades? — All different classes of trades. The admission committee kept a book in which the trades are specified. 5239. According to the original arrangement, a single man might have earned 78. a week in breaking stones ? — I believe the committee did not admit unmarried men — only married men — a married man got on whether he had children or not. 5240. And each man would get 78. a week ? — Just the same as any able-bodied labourer. 5241. Were there masons among the number in winter? — I believe Ave had almost all the different classes of citizens — masons, wrights, smiths, pliunbers, slaters, glass-blowers, and so forth. 5242. Do you know if there were many smiths among the unemployed ? — ^I could not say w hat number, but we had some of them, for I was applied to by some of them who wanted to get into the smithy to work. 5243. Were you in the habit of giving each man every day a certain portion of work to do?— No. 5244. How have you ascertained, for your own satisfaction, that each man worked as he ought to have done ? — They wrought all in squads, and we trusted to the gangers jjlaced ever the squads. 5245. Did the gangers make any report to you ? — ^They were not required to do so. They were bound to report If any of tlie men left the ground. 5246. You cannot give us information as to whether these squads did a fair portion of work in a day ? — No, I never measui-ed. 5247. Is the number of persons employed diminishing or increasing ? — Dlminisliing. 5248. What is that owing to ? — Two hundred went to the Queen's Park to work ; and about three hundred took the bomis of 3s. to leave the works in the Meadows. 5249. Were these Irishmen or Scotchmen ? — Just a mixture. The Irishmen mostly were taken down to the Queen's Park, on account of their being accustomed to laboui". POOR LAW INQUIRY COMAHSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 303 Examinations. Glasgow. GLASGOW. 11 April 1843. Tuesday, Wih April 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Druinmond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick MTarlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. PeUr Hill, Esq., Governor of Town's Hospital, Glasgow, Examined : — 5250. You are governor of the town's hospital of Glasgow ? — I am. 5251. How long have you held that situation ? — I was appointed on the 15th May 1828 ; I was superintendent of the poor for a considerable part of that time ; but of late the office of governor is separate from that of superintendent. 5252. What description of persons do you receive in the town's hospital? — AH who have a right in the ten parishes of Glasgow. 5253. Are they old or impotent ? — Most of them are old, or unable to do any thing for themselves. 5254. Also lunatics ? — ^Yes ; we have about forty lunatics In the cells. 5255. By what rule are persons admitted to the hospital? — Through the weekly com- mittee. They sit every Thursday, and receive applications, and admit. The magistrates have a right to send any persons under peculiar circumstances, with an order for their Im- mediate admission ; but such cases are taken under review at the next meeting of the weekly committee. 5256. You have seen a pamphlet entitled " Regulations of the Town's Hospital ?" — Yes. 5257. In general do you concur in the correctness of the statements made in this pamphlet ? — Yes; these are the regulations of 1841. 5258. Have you any persons in the town's hospital who can work ? — We cannot want some such persons. We have a great deal of work In the house, and it is aU done by the inmates, with tlie exception of the tailor, and the superintendent of the shoemaking, and the superintendent of the cells, and the door-keeper, these are the only paid servants in the hospital. 5259. Do those persons who work maintain themselves ? — They are silly In mind, and not able to take cliarge of themselves, at least a great many of them. We get a good deal of work from them. 5260. Does that description apply to the greater part of them? — I have a statement here, a report which I read on 13th February last, which, with the permission of the Commission, I shall read : — Peter Hill, Esq. Inmates of the Hospital. Males, 154 Females, 267 Variously employed, ... ... 254 Bed-rid, 36 Insane, blind, and incapacitated, 131 421 421 Males, Females, Lunatic Asylnm. 5 22 27 Boarders. at £2 8 per annum, at 5 at at at 7 at 8 at 8 at 11 5 8 6 10 7 16 8 8 10 at 13 at 15 at 18 at 15 12 Moqthly Hst, Quarterly list. Children at Nurse, Meal roU, Out-Door Poor. 508 receiving from 3s. to 14s. each, last monthly pay 149Z. 16s. 6d. receiving from 5s. to 35s. quarterly. 282 320 282 last quarter payment, 294:1. 9s. 8d. receiving from 15s. to 30s. quarterly, receiving from 4 lbs. to 12 lbs. each weekly, distribution last week, 16 bolls 15 pecks. 304 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinatiuus. Total Oil the Funds. Glasgow. Jnmates of the Hospital, 421 Peter Hill, Esc,. Do. in Limatic Asylum, -,. .,r !m m- ••• 2T 11 April 1843. , 448 Chit-Poor. MontlilyRoU, 508 Less of these on meal do., ... ... ... ... ... 36 472 Quarterly Roll, ... ,.. ... ,,. ... ... 482 Children at Nurse, 320 Mcfil roll, ,,, .., ,,. ... .,. ... ... 282 2004 Families and individuals supplied temporarily by the weekly committee during the quarter ending 31st January 1843 :-^- November, ... 4 weeks, 1105 cases, paid £94 18 December, ... 5 ... 1361 ... paid 121 January, ... 4 ... 1111 ... paid 98 6 6 Average, ... 275 cases, and £24 : 3 : 5 weekly. (Signed) PETER HILL. All the shoes are made In the hospital by the inmates. A great many of the old men tease oakum ; and a numlDer of the women wash in the washing-house. 5261. Does the diet comprehend what is stated in this book? — Yes. The general diet at present is this : — Dinner. Broth six days of the week ; rice soup the seventh ; potatoes twice a week ; tlour bread three times ; oat bread twice, with an ounce of butter, or two ounce of cheese ; three ounce beef, or an egg, with fish, once a Aveek. The sick get various kinds of soup, with wine or sphits, as ordered by the surgeon. Breakfast and Supper. Oatmeal pottage morning and evening, with butter milk, or sweet milk, or beer. About 100 sick and frail receive tea or coffee, some once in the day, and some twice, besides the nurses or keepers of the different wards. 5262. Have you any calculation of the expenses of the hospital ?— I can give you a state- ment of the income and expenditure of last year? — [Subjoined to evidence.] 5263. How is the medical attendance regulated ? — We have a siu-geon appointed by the directors wlio A'isits every day, or oftener if necessary. We send for him at any time. 5264. Have you many more applications than you have the means of receiving ? — ^We are over-crowded just now ; we have more applicants than we can take in. We are obliged in cases of necessity to make room for them in oi)e way or another, for instance, a bed on the floor without a bedstead. 5265. Have the appUcations been increasing of late ? — During the winter we hfive always a great many more applications than at other seasons. 5266. Do you ever discharge any from the hospital excepting from misconduct? — Very seldom, We have a review committee once a year for reviewing the inmates, who all appear before them, and if they see any who are fit to go out they are ordered out. 5267. Are the inmates all single people?- — We have a rule not to admit married men and women ; but in some instances we are obliged to admit either one or other. They do not live together with us. We have been obhged in extraordinary instances to take in either the man or the woman. 5268. Do you take in children? — Yes; but avc do not keep them in the hosijital. We board them all out in the country. We have a few generally in the hospital, those sent down by the magistrates, the children of mothers who have been sent to bridewell for thirty days perhaps. 5269. Have you divine service performed in the hospital ?^ — -Yes, morning and evening service every day, and on Sabbath we have seniion in the forenoon and in the evening. We have a regular chaplain. 5270. What board do you pay for the children ? — For an infant on the breast 30s. a ' quarter for nursing. We clothe them besides. When they are one year old we reduce the sum to 25s. a quarter ; and when above tliree years of age we reduce it to 22s. 6d. a quarter. 5271. You have nothing to do witii the relief of the poor out of doors? — No, excepting attending the meetings of the weekly connnittee, which I always do. 5272. How long do you keep the children generally? — Till they are ten years of age, that is the acknowledged time ; but we have often to vary it. We have had to do so par ticularly this last year. We have some children at tliirteen and fourteen years of age ; some we cannot get employment for, and some who are sickly. 5273. Do you attend to the education of the children in the countrj-? — Yes, that is par- ticularly attended to. They are sent to the nearest parish school. 5274. Do you pay for them ? — Yes, to the ])arish schoolmaster. 5275. Is any work given to the inmates of the house? — Yes, a number are employed in shoemaking; the greater part of the men are employed in teasing oakum. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 305 5276. You stated that you had among them some able-bodied, — how came they there ? — Examinations, From weakness in mind, or something of that kind. Gi.asoow. 5277. Yon have none sound both in body and mind?— -None. They often come in in p^fg^ um ^^ sickness, and if they get roimd, they either leave us or work with us. ,, ^p,.;, J (,43 " 5278. Do you take in able-bodied persons who are out of employment ?— No. 5279. Do you take in widows with children ?— No, we pav for them out of doors. 52(S0. Do you take in mothers of illegitimate children ?— No, 5281. Or deserted wives?— No, if they arc able for work. 5282. Have you any statement of the birth-places of those in the workhouse ? — There is a statement ; but I cannot say it is perfectly exact, Ijccause we have not been in the habit of taking dowai the places where they come from. Our object is to know if they have a residence. Out of 421 inmates that wo had on the 13th February last, as nearly as I could make o\it, there are of Scotch, Irish, English, 358 36 7 Brought forward, Foreign, ... Unknown, 401 3 17 Carry forward, 401 421 5283. Can you state of those not Scotch, how many resided in Glasgow previously to tlieir admission ? — They must all ha-\e an industrial residence of three years before they are taken in. If ihcy have not that residence, we do not take them in, unless they are ordered to be taken in by the magistrates ; but we get quit of them as soon as possible. 5284. Have you any statement as to how long they have resided in Glasgow above three years ? — No, that is Mr Thomson's business. 5285. Supposing a person applied who had not a residence of three years, what would you do ? — Wc would send him to his own parish. If any apply to us who belong to Ire- land, we send them away by the steam-boats. o2Sl]. You would in such cases al\\a3-s give relief? — Yes, and they get a free passage. 5287. Previously to passing them to their respective parishes, do you conununicate with the different parishes ? — Yes ; for Instance, we pay for our paupers in Aberdeen, and Aber- deen pays for its paupers whom we relieve. 5288. Supposing a pauper having no settlement in Glasgow applied to you, would you send him to his own parish without first comnmnicating with the parish ? — We in^'ariably write first, if in bad health. 5289. If a pauper objected to going to the parish to which you might think he belonged, and said he did not belong to it, would you send him there ? — No. 5290. Of those who have resided three years in Glasgow, have you reason to believe that any came for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? — That is often the case ; but it is more Mr Thomson's business than mine to inquire into this. 5291. But in regard to those in the ;v<)rkhouse ? — They are generally jiaupers on the sessions before they apply to the hospital. It is the regulation not to apply to the hos- pital till the relief by the sessions or the outdoor allowance becomes insufficient to kee}) them. 5292. Have you ever seen any individuals in Glasgow who come for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? — I cannot answer that question. I do not know any particular case. Mr Thomson will answer in regard to this better than I can do. 5293. Do you prohibit the introduction of spirituous liquors to the workliouse ? — Yes ; every one who goes in or out is searched ; the door-keeper is bound to search. 5294. Do you prohibit other articles, such as tobacco ?— We do not prohibit tobacco. The inmates get out once a week to see their friends, and they may bring in with them a little tea and sugar ; we look over that. 5295. Do you not supply them with tea ? — Only when sick, as you wiU find in the diet statement. 5296. What class of Insane persons do you receive in the workhouse, the fatuous or furious ? — The fatuous only. The vicious we send to the lunatic asylum, as you will find by the report which I read. 5297. What accommodation have you for them In the hospital, — are they mingled with tlie others ? — -No, they are kept separate. Some of them are in separate cells ; other cells may have two or three, according to circumstances. 5298. Have you sufficient acconnnodation for those who apply ? — If we have not suflScient accommodation, we send them to the asylum, and pay for them. The smn Is fixed every year ; at present It Is 7s. a week ; last year It was 7s. 6d. 5299. What do you believe to be the chief cause of the pauperism that exists InGlas- gow ? — Bad conduct of one kind or other. The hospital is very different now to what it was when I first went there, — as different as night from day. We have now the lowest charac- ters that you can find on the streets of Glasgow. We got three of such chanicters sent down to us by the magistrates lately, at ten o'clock at night. Those sent in this way are mostly women. This Is the most disagreeable part of my duty. 5300. You say the character of the inmates Is changed, — to what do you attribute this ? —I do not know, — perhaps to the destitution of the town, and to the increase of immo- lidity. 5301. Are those persons permitted to mingle with the others ? — We have not accommo- dation to separate them as well as wo could wish ; but we do separate them as far as it is in our power. 2 R 306 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxiuuinations. Glasgow. Peter Hill, Esq. 11 April 1843. 5302. Have you found bad effects from indiscriminate mLxtm-e ? — No, after they have been a while under oiu- charge they behave veiy well, even the worst of them. They in general become a very different set of people by staying with us. Some of them come to us in the worst state. 5303. Is there any indisposition to avail themselves of the hospital, or the contrary ? — The class I have alluded to come in, I dare say, unwillingly. The class sent down by tlie magistrates or police never were on the sessions. We make inquiiy about them ; and if they have a residence of three years, we are obliged to keep them. Within the last two years, a great improvement haa taken place in the strictness of the discipline ; and they become uncommonly well behaved. 5304. When you say their conduct is very much improved by their continuance in the hospital, have you reason to believe that it is a permanent improvement ? — I cannot say in every case ; but we have had several instances of pennanent improvement. Some of the most indifferent characters in Glasgow, when two yeare with us, have become altogether changed ; and we have some of them making application for seats in churches. 5305. Are any sent to you from the nightly house of reflige ? — We have had application from the night asylum for relief; but none are sent directly to the hospital. We have an instance of one being sent down in a bad state of health. 5306. You said that there is a practice of sending away persons that do not belong to Glasgow to their own parishes, — how is this done ? — We send them away with passes. 5307. What is the nature of these passes ? — Every parish in Scotland has passes from one parish to another. Mr Eoss, who, I understand, is to come before you, can explain this. When I left the hospital to-day, I suppose from twenty to tliirty persons were hanging on, waiting for passes. 5308. What is the nature of the passes ? — It is a printed fonn, signed by Mr Ross, an order addressed to the parish to which they are to go ; every intermediate paiish passes them on, reUeving them with 6d. or Is., as the case may be. 5309. What security is there that they actually go ? — I do not know that we have any security ; but, I believe, in almost every Instance, they do go ; — they apply themselves for passes. Mr Ross relieves them, and chai'ges the hospital. ABSTRACT STATE of the Income and Expenditure of the TOWN'S HOSPITAL of GLASGOW, for one year, commencing 1st Jime, 1841, and ending 31st May, 1842. INCOME. I.— ASSESSMENT for one year, ending Slat May 1842, Deduct Collector's Salary, ... Surveyor's Salary, ... Parliamentary expenses, proportion of, Struck off as irrecoverable, ... ... Stamps and other charges, ... II.— RECEIPTS OF THE HOSPITAL. Profit and loss, assessments fonnerly struck off recovered, ... Boarding for certain inmates of the house, Gain on general work, besides work done for the house. Amount for dung sold, ... ... £16709 4 6 iC200 160 300 700 62 16 3 16 3 — £15,300 8 3 28 288 36 31 14 14 19 10 8 8 ins i« f 15,692 6 EXPENDITURE. I.— BALANCE sui-plus expenditure, 1840 and 1841, II.— INMATES OF THE HOUSE. (1.) Provisions, viz. Meal— 695 bolls, 19 pecks, Butcher-meat, Butter and cheese, Wheaten bread, Potatoes, ... ... Herrings, ... ... Barley and salt, ... Spirits and wine, ... Buttermilk, ... ... ... Sweet milk, ... ... Coals, ... ... ... Soap and candles. Snuff and tobacco, Vegetables, ... ... ... Groceries and petty provisions, ... Eggs, Maintenance of 432 persons, at £6, 17s. 8 5-6ths each per annum, CaiTy for\vard, £1664 6 2 £581 9 280 17 6 377 2 7 276 3 6 36 1 10 26 14 6 146 5 4 68 17 191 3 4 14 17 4 208 13 8 72 8 3 54 37 7 3 136 12 8 30 7 10 m, £2543 1 7 £2543 1 7 £1564 6 2 POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 307 Brought over, (2.) Clothing and Bedding, viz. Clothing for young and old £264 13 7 Shoes and mendings, ... ... ... ... ... ... 91 1 9 Straw for bedding, 36 16 4 (3.) Medical Attendance and Funeral Charges, viz. Medicines — including porter and wines for medicines, ... .£136 13 4 Coffins, 44 16 (4.) Charges of the Establishment, viz. Salaries to office-bearci-s, viz. governor, matron, chaplain, clerk, and house-surgeon, ... ... ... ... ... 467 18 9 Servants' wages, and barber's salary, ... 34 10 Wages to cell-keeper, ... ... ... ... ... ... 46 16 ... to gate-keej)er, 46 16 Petty house charges, ... ... ... ... ... ... 94 9 8 Tradesmen's accounts, repairs, &c 205 6 8 Insurance, 3 10 6 Total in-door expenditure, ^£2543 I 7 £1564 6 2 Examination.. Glasgow. 302 11 8 181 8 4 898 18 7 Peter Hill, Esq. 11 April 1843. 4016 2 III.— OUT-DOOR POOR. (1.) Ordinary and Occasional Poor. Meal distributed in weekly allowances, — in whole, 856 bolls, 11^ pecks, .£715 2 Pensions in money, in half quarterly allowances, at different rates, ... Note. — The above allowances, partly in meal and portly in money, have been made to 919 families and individuals. 2375 11 7 Temporary aid in money, to casual poor, averaging 202 cases weekly, (last quarter average of cases, 294) 867 7 6 Salaries of 14 distiict surgeons, attending the jjoor throughout the city, 292 4 Salary to superintendent of poor, 200 Medicines for paupers — including spirits and wines as medicines, 205 18 11 Coffins for paupers or their children, ... 255 3 6 (2.) Session Poor. Amount granted to individual sessions, with a view of prevent- ing paupers becoming more burdensome to the hospital, (3.) Insane Poor. Boarding for patients in the lunatic asylum, during the year, (4.) Fever patients sent to infirmary, (5.) Children at Nuhse. Nursing and board wages for 338 children, out of the house, at different rates, from ISs. to 30s. per quarter, School fees for children, 1616 2 10 164 18 9 Total out-door expenditure. 4911 7 10 2777 5 I 432 12 4 333 16 1781 1 7 10227 2 10 IV.— MISCELLANEOUS EXPENDITURE. Interest to Royal Bank, less amount from Clyde Trustees, Stationery, printing and advertisements. Charges incurred in the suppressing of begging. Law Charges, Total Expenditure for the year, BALANCE. DEBTS DUE BY THE HOSPITAL :— Donations from sundry persons, which are carried to the stock of the hospital, the interest whereof is destined for special purposes. Debts due by the hospital, including 3237/. 7s. 7d., due Royal Bank, FROM WHICH DEDUCT : Arrears of this and former year's assessment, supposed recover- able. Amount of meal, provisions, clothing, and other manufactures on hand. Sundry debts due to the hospital, Cash on hand 1497 8 1 2 4194 9 £4395 3 757 8 11 9 47 13 3 40 10 2 124 9 9 178 16 23 13 6 367 9 5 .£16,174 18 7 5691 17 2 5209 5 2 Balance surplus expenditure 1841, and 1842, 482 12 Jei5,692 6 7 308 MENUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E^ianiiMaliiiiig. Glasgow. Peter llill, Ksq. 11 April I84:(. STOCK. The stock of the hospital amounts to 4497Z. Ss. 2cl., of which 3000/. is lent on security, and the remaining 1497/. 8s. 2d. is in the above balance, which, together with the present esta- blishment in Clyde Street, constitute the capital stock of the hospital : but this stock is not brought into the printed aimual state, COMPARATIVE VIEW of the L\C0:ME and EXPENDITURE of the Hospital, for the years ending 31st August 1839, 1840, nine months 1841 ; and 31st May 1842 ; and the Balance at each of these periods. RECEIPTS. Balance in favour of the hospital — 1839 and 1840, Nett proceeds of assessment, Contributions from public bodies, ... Receipts of the hospital. Balance against the hospital, 1841 and 1842, 1839. 1840. 1841. 1842. £ s, d. 10,913 ill 450 485 2 1 £ 4. d. 20 4 7 11,010 19 2 460 ,348 18 5 £ s. d, 148 8 7 8,406 8 4 326 2 1,564 6 2 £ s. d. 15,300 ii 3 386 18 4 482 12 11,848 4 11,830 2 2 10,445 3 3 16,174 18 7 DISBURSEMENTS. Balance against the hospital, 18.38 and 1841, Expenditure within the house, (1841 nine months,) ... Do. outdoor, do. Miscellaneous, ... ... do. Balance in favour of the hospital — 1839 and 1840, ,. 182 14 2 2,919 10 7 8,625 12 6 200 2 2 20 4 7 .3,118 17 11 8,376 9 4 192 6 4 148 8 7 2,863 4 4 7,379 10 1 202 8 10 1,564 6 2 4,016 2 10,227 2 10 367 9 5 11,848 4 11,830 2 2 10,445 3 3 16,174 18 7 Examined, ARCHIBALD NEWALL, JAMES BURNS, JAMES SOMMERVILLE, G. L. WALKER, WILLIAM STEWART, Committee on the hooks of the hospital, Glasgow, 25th June, 1842, H. l>uiilop, Esq. Henry Dunlop, of Craigton, Esq., Examined : - 6310. You have been Lord Provost of the city of Glasgow? — Yes. 5311. Was an act of parliament passed when you were provost, for regulating the main-r tenance of the poor ? — Yes, for levying the assessment. 5312. Can you tell us the nature of the act? — The principal object of the act was to change the mode of assessment from means and substance to rental. 5313. Is the assessment levied entirely on rental now ? — Yes. • 5314. You are preceptor of the town's hospital ? — Yes. 5315. Are the funds raised by the assessments administered in the hospital ? — Yes, and also administered by the kirk- sessions. 531(5. Are the funds raised by the collections at the church doors also put into the funds of the hospital ? — Yes. 5317. What are the regulations under which paupers are received into the hospital ,'' — I cannot very distinctly explain the regulations. The principal object of the hospital is to receive aged and infirm persons, — those who are unable to do anything for themselves out of doors, and who have no relations to take care of them. 5318. How are the applications made to the hospital ? — First of all the paupers are generally taken charge of by the kirk-sessions. A person applies to an elder for relief,^'- the first application is made to the elder ; — he recommends the pauper to the hospital for inspection in the first instance. The in.spector visits the pauper, and reports to the kirk- .session regarding the circumstances of the applicant, and tlie kirk-session .acts accordingly, If the party is taken on the roll, a certain allowance is fixed by the kirk session, from 2.S. 6d. a month, to 5s. or 6s., as the case may be. 5319. Is the sum so fixed given as outdoor relief.'* — Entirely. If 2s. Gd. is not suflicient, the allowance is raised till it reaches to Gs., and if more is required, the case is transferred vo the hospital. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 300 5320. Is the outdoor relief paid from the funds of the hospital ? — Yes. 5321. When a person applies for admission, or when the kirk-session applies, is the appli- cation brought before the weekly committee of the hospital ? — Yes. 5322. Do you receive able-bodied men into t}ie hospital ? — No. Men able to do a little, but not able to do a day's work, are admitted. 6323. Besides the weekly committee, have you any annual committee to review the state of the paupers in the hospital ? — Not that I remember of. 5324. Is there any system fbr reviewing j)ersons within the hospital with a view of dis- missing tho.se who are able to do for themselves, after they have been a while in the hospital ^ — There is a regular visitation of the hosjiital by the directors and other parties. It is more with the view of reporting as to the condition in which the hospital is kept. .5325. Supposing a person coming to the hospital in sickness, and recovering, who judges of his being able to go out ? — That is not a case for the hospital. .5326. Is it not the general practice to take on persons disabled by temporary sickness ? — No ; not as indoor patients. .5327. Besides those received into the hospital from the kirk-sessions, are persons also received who are sent down by the magistrates ? — Yes. 5328. Are persons sent by the police received ? — Yes, they are admitted in the mean- time in cases of great destitution. 5329. Are the cases sent by the magistrates always investigated by the committee at next meeting ? — I should think so. 5330. Are you aware of any instance of a person being refused admittance sent down by the magistrates .'' — I am not aware of any. The magistrates have merely the power of recommending, — they have no power of ordering. Their order would be attended to by the weekly committee, as a matter of course. 5331. You say the order would be attended to as a matter of course, — is not that order equivalent to a legal right ? — I should think so ; — they stand in tjie place of heritors ; and have a right to recommend at all events. 5332. When a party receives the allowance of 6s. a month, does that come from a fund different from the hospital fund ? — I consider it coming from the same fund. The collec- tions are put into the common fund. 5333. Is there any particular part of the common fund put into the hands of the session ? — No particular part,— just what they require for their use, according to the number of cases. 5334. Do the elders of the different kir]c-sessions bring down their accounts to be audited by the weekly committee ? — No, the clerk oT the kirk-session attends. Each elder has his list in which is noted down the allowance payable to each individual, apd he gets monthly the amount required. The session-clerk transpiits the account to the committee of manage^, ment of the hospital. 5335. How has the alteration of the law worked P — Remarkably well, 5336. It has given general satisfaction ? — Yes. The great objection to the other mode was its inquisitorial nature ; merchants were leaving town, and taking up their resir dence where ^ diff"erent system prevailed, — where the assessments were entirely on rental. 5337- Do you think the present a fair mode of levying (he assessment ? — I should think so. In consequence of the other mode many of the wealthy left the city The present mode does not press hard on any individual ; no on^ feels it very much. The otber mode was objected to because of its inqyisitorial nature. .')338. Under the system of assessment on the rental, do not the tenants pay more in pro- portion to their income, than they would pay by the other system? — That depends on their employment. 5339. May not wealthy persons escape by living in inferior houses ? — They do not pay so much as to make it an object to do that. 5340. What is the amount in the pound ? — It is about five per cent. 5341. What class of persons are exemjited ? — ^All, I believe, under 71. rent. 5342. Do you think the system of exempting under 7L a good system ? — I think it wrong to have exemptions ; but there is great difficulty of collecting in the case of low rents. It would be better to levy it on the landlords in the case of low rents. 5343. Does the exemption under f /. give rise to the building of tenements at a low^r rate of rent ? — It may. 6344. Have you seen much of the condition of the poor in Glasgow ? — A good deal of it, 5345. What is your opinion of their condition ? — Those of respectable character are cpin- fortable, but those who are not so are very wretched. 5346. With respect to those in the receipt of parochial relief, is their allpwance suffi- cient? — Not sufficient for their maintenance; but it affords a gi-eat assistance. I have charge of a district in which there are a few paupers. They live in their own houses. Some of them are old women, and perhaps may keep a lodger to assist them. They find the small allowance they get from the parish a great benefit, and they live comfortably; but they are persons of good character. When we deal with persons of bad character, I think it is impossible to make them better, by giving them any amount of money. 5347. From the allowance they get from the hospital fund, and other resources which they have, they live comfortably ? — Yes. The other day, a pauper applied to me in my district for relief. She had got none before, but she had been able to maintain herself. She gets 4s. a month, which is a great assistance to her. 5348. Do you thijjk pecuniary relief to persons of an ipimoral chapfipter (loes gpofi, op Bxaniiiiatiniis. Glasgow. H. Dunlop, Esq. U April 1843. 310 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE £x«tniiiatioii8. harm ? — It is difficult to say ; frequently it is badly applied. Certainly such persons live in (ii.Asoow. a state of 4I(). How long have you been in that situation? — About seventeen vears. 5417. You are aware of this publication ? — Yes. 5418. Does this description of your duties comprehend the whole of your duties? — Yes. 5419. You were clerk to the hospital before the change that took place some years ago? ' — Yes. 5420. By what authority are the inmates received into the hospital? — By the authority of the weekly committee. 5421. Are they admitted according to any rule or principle ? — They are admitted if they liave a claim on the town. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 313 5422. When you have more applicants than the house can accommodate, how do you Kxiuiiinaiions. proceed ? — We board out those whom we cannot receive. Glarokw. 5423. Those are admitted who appear to be in the most helpless situation ? — Generally so. jj^ jTstirlins. 5424. Do you give a preference to those who are weak in intellect 2 — We do give a pre- n April 184;j. ference to that class. 5425. Are those unable to do anything for themselves admitted .' — Those who are un- able to do anything for themselves are at once admitted. 5426. Are many of them able to work a little ? — Many are able to do something for themselves ; others are weak in mind, — fatuous, and dissipated. 5427- Do you perceive any considerable change for the better in the inmates since the new regulations were introduced ? — A considerable change for the better. 5428. Are they kept more strictly than they used to be ? — Yes. 5429. In what respect ? — Their morals are more strictly watched over than they were formerly ; and a more rigid discipline is exercised in the hospital in every way. 5430. Do you keep a register of their names ? — I do. 5431. Does the register comprehend the children boarded out ? — No, only those in the house. 5432. Are there in general more applicants than you can receive? — A great many more, — we cannot admit all who apply to us for admission. 5433. Are there more committees than one .' — There are various committees, — a com- mittee on books, a committee on provisions, and a weekly committee. 5434. Are the accounts audited by the committee on books ? — Yes, they meet monthly. 5435. The weekly committee is for admissions ? — Yes, and granting temporary relief out of doors. 543G. Are these committees generally pretty well attended ? — They are generally well attended. 5437. Are the same persons continued in the committees from year to year, or are they changed ? — They are changed annually, the whole of them. 5438. Do you mean that the same person does not remain on a committee two years ? — Various of the directors remain in two years ; but all the committees are generally changed once in the year. 5439. How many committees have you ? — 'The weekly committee, the book committee, the provision committee, and the committee for reviewing the inmates annually. 5440. Has the book committee the power of deciding on the legality of an item of ex- penditure ? — Yes. 5441. If an item was not what they considered according to law, they would disallow it ?— Yes. 5442. Supposing the weekly committee had granted relief to an able bodied person, would the book committee consider themselves authorized to strike it out as illegal .'' — Yes. 5443. Do you receive money for the support of the house ? — Yes, I draw from the bank by an order from the treasurer weekly. 5444. Out of what funds does the money come ? — From the assessment. 544.5. Do you draw weekly ? — Yes. 5446. Do you pay the outdoor paupers ? — I pay the whole. 5447. Are they paid weekly ? — They are paid quarterly, and half quarterly, and monthly. We have a class of monthly paupers, a class of half quarterly, and a class of quarterly pau- pers. The monthly paupers are chiefly old men and women ; the quarterly are widows with children ; and the half quarterly are also widows with children. 5448. Do the book committee audit your accounts ? — Yes, monthly. 5449. Who regulates the amount of the allowance that you pay to the outdoor people .' — The weekly committee. 5450. Not the kirk-sessions ? — No. 5451. State the distinction between the kirk-sessional and the town's hospital poor?— The sessional poor are generally poor people, who receive from 4s. to 5s. or 6s. a month. When that sum is too small the case comes to the hospital, and the pauper is taken on the funds of the hospital, and receives 10s. or 12s. a month, according to circumstances. 5452. What is the highest allowance that you make to old men and women ? — From 12s. to 14s. a month to an old man and his wife without children. 5453. Do you always give the allowance to the outdoor pensioners in money ? — We have a great many who get meal without money, and others get meal and money. 5454. What are the class to whom you give meal without money ? — Generally worth- less, comparatively speaking. 5455. Do you ever give that allowance to widows with children ? — We give them meal and money. 5456. What is the amount of allowance to a widow with two children ?^A peck of meal weekly, and 7s. 6d. quarterly. 5437. These cases do not come, in the first instance, under the administration of the kirk-session ? — No. 54.58. Is there any balance paid over to the town's hospital by the kirk-sessions after they have paid their poor ? — No. 5459. Are there instances in which the collections are not sufficient to relieve the sessional poor? — All the kirk-sossions require to be supplemented by the hospital. 5460. Are you aware that people receiving outdoor relief, betake themselves to public begging ? — Yes, manv of them do beg, notwithstanding their allowance from the hospital. 2 S 314 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFOKE THE lixaiiiiiiaiioiis. 5461. Is that recognized by the committee ? — No. <»i.A»,(iow. 5462. Do they take means to prevent it .'' — They very often do. llr J. Stirling 5463. It is intended that they should not have recourse to begging ? — Of course it is. 11 April la-ix 5464. Have you reason to believe that the same thing applies to the sessional poor ? — I have not the exact means of knowing that. 5465. What number have you on your outdoor list .'' — 1400 persons who have families, heads of families, including those on the monthly roll, and receiving meal, altogether about 1400, exclusive of children. 5466. The man and his wife you count only one ? — Only one. 5467. How many may there be, including all the inmates ? — About 2000, I should think. 5468. What is the lowest sum you are in the habit of giving to a single woman .' — 15s. a quarter. 5469. You suppose she is able to do a little for herself? — Yes, supposing she is able to do a little for herself. 5470. How are the outdoor attended to in sickness? — Do you take means to have them relieved ? — We do. 5471. Does the hospital surgeon attend them ? — The district surgeons attend them, — we have seventeen surgeons. 5472. Whenever application is made, is medical relief given .'' — Always. 5473. Do you take any charge of the children in regard to education ?— We do. They are examined annually in the hospital by the chaplain. They are all examined once a year, and heard to read. 5474. Do you take charge of those living with their parents who receive outdoor relief.'' — No, we take no charge of them. 5475. You have no means of knowing whether they are properly looked after .'' — No. 5476. Can you state the form of the application of a pauper who has not been previously on the sessional roll .' — The pauper first applies to the hospital, and the case is given over to the superintendent, who reports to the next meeting, and the case is then taken up and disposed of accordingly. 5477. Is there no certificate from the session, or a member of the session ? — No ; the applications are all signed by the elder or minister. 5478. But these do not come in the first instance before the kirk-session ? — No, they come first before the town's hospital. 5479. Have you anything to do with the granting of passes ? — No, that is Mr Ross's department. 5480. Is it your general practice to give relief to able-bodied persons v/ith one child ? — Yes. 5481. Do you give relief to a woman without children ? — No. 6482. What is the largest amount of relief to widows with children ? — 35s. a quarter. 5483. Are there many cases of relief as high as-that ? — A good number. 5484. Do kirk-sessions exercise the power of giving relief of their own authority, and without the authority of the weekly committee in all sums under 6s. ? — Yes. 5485. And with that class of poor you have nothing to do .'' — No. 5486. The decisions of the kirk-sessions in regard to them are not subject to review ? — No. 5487. You do not afford occasional relief? — We do. 5488. Under what circumstances ' — To people who are reduced in consequence of the want of employment, and labouring under sickness, and other casualties. 5489. The same descriptions of persons are relieved by the kirk-sessions ? — The sessions give occasional relief also. 5490. Have they also a permanent poor roll ? — Yes, all who receive allowance under 6s. 5491. But you have 1400 on your roll independently of the number on the sessional roll ?— Yes. 5492. Do they make a return of their numbers to you, although they do not give the particular cases ? — Yes. 5493. Have you means of knowing how many altogether receive relief from the assess- ments and collections ? — About 19(J0 are on the sessional roll. We have a return monthly. All the diflferent kirk-sessions draw monthly, and state how many paupers are on the roll, and the sum required is paid to them by the hospital. 5494. Do you take means to ascertain that the same person does not receive relief both from the hospital and kirk-session ? — Mr Thomson does, — that is his department. 5495. Can you give us a monthly statement of those receiving outdoor relief? — Yes ; on the monthly roll there are about 500. 5496. Can you give us a tabular statement .'' — Yes, I can give you a monthly statement for several years. 5497. By the hospital and kirk-session .'' — Yes. 5498. You say the way a pauper gets on the roll is by an application, signed by the minister and elder, to the weekly committee ; is that the mode of getting on the sessional as well as on the hospital roll .' — No. The mode of applying to the session is for the person to apply to the elder of the district in which he or she lives. The elders submit the case to the session ; the case is then remitted to the superintendent to report to the next meeting of session. The ease is then taken up and disposed of. 5499. And that case remains on the session roll till such times as the sum necessary for the maintenance of the party exceeds what the session are entitled to give ?— Quite so. POOK LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 315 5500. And if the sum is not sufficient, the case is remitted to the hospital ? — Yes. 5501. And they consider whether they shall receive the case on the roll or not ? — Yes. 5502. Would it be possible to dispense with assessments ? — Quite impossible I should think. 5503. Has the amount of assessment been increasing of late years ? — Yes, during the last nine years progressively, — regularly increasing every year. 5504. You say it would be impossible to dispense with assessments, judging from the collections at present ; but supposing assessments abolished, would the collections at the church doors be greater than they now are ?— I have no means of knowing that. 5505. Has there been a great increase of pauperism ? — A vast increase during the last few years. 5506. Is that from want of work ? — Yes, and the prevalence of fever for a number of years back, and disease arising from poverty. 5507. Have the allowances to the poor been remaining stationary ? — They have been increasing during the last two or three years. 5508. Do you think they are sufficient to maintain them without other resources ? — No, they are only meant to aid them in the resources they may have. 5509. But you do not include begging under other resources ? — No. 5510. Do you take pains to make relatives contribute to the sustcntation of their rela- tions ] — We do, if their relations are able. 5511 . In fixing the allowance, does the committee ascertain that the paupers have or have not, other means ? — Mr Thomson does that. He inquires minutely into all the facts of each case. 5512. And they positively ascertain that there are other modes by which they can assist in maintaining themselves ? — Yes, we endeavour to extract the truth from them. 5513. Can you state what was the amount of assessment three years ago? — About 15,000/. 5514. For the city alone? — For the city alone, exclusive of the barony. 5515. What is it now ?— 18,000?. 5516 Do you consider that increase to be greater in proportion than the increase of population ? — I do not think so. 5517. Is it in proportion to the increase of population ? — Yes, I should think it is. 5518. Has the rate per cent, been increased within the last three years? — Yes. 5519. Who settles the amount of money to be raised each year ? — The assessors and the magistrates. 5520. Do the magistrates always levy the sum according to the estimate of the directors ? — Yes. 5521. You never find any difficulty in this? — No. 5522. Has the rate per cent, remained the same for some years ? — No, it has varied. lC\aiiiiiia!ioii3. C;las(3(>w. Mr J. .Stirling. 11 April 1»4^. TOTAL ON SESSION ROLLS. 842. March, 1232. 1842 September, 1276 April, 1253. October, • » • • 1288 May, 1248. November, ... 1294 June, 1274. December, ... 1307 July, 1250. 1843. January, • • ■ * 1313 August, 1246. February, ... 1338 RETURN of HOSPITAL POOR, taken Quarterly. 1842. Feb. Inmates of Hospital, Insane in Lunatic Asylum, On Monthly Roll, ••• 416 25 457 On Quarterly Roll, . • • 203 On Meal Roll, — weekly, ••• ... 296 Children at Nursing, ... 343 1740 May Inmates of the Hospital, ••• Insane Paupers, ... 409 26 Monthly Roll, ••• • • • 470 Quarterly Roll, ••• 202 Meal Roll, • •• • • • 268 Children at Nursing, • • • •"• 344 1719 1842. Aug Inmates of the Hospital, ... 414 Insane Poor in Lunatic Asylum, • •• ■ •• 24 On Monthly Roll, • •• •• • 471 On Quarterly Roll, -•- 237 On Meal Roll, • • • 1 t • 288 Children at Nursing, • t • ••• ■■• 338 1772 316 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examination 9. (>I,AS()OW. -Mr J. Stirling. It April 1843. 1843. Feb. Inmates of the Hospital, ... Insane Poor in the Asylum, On Monthly Roll, On Quarterly Roll, ... Meal Roll, Children at Nursing, 421 27 472 482 282 320 2004 Note. — The list of poor on the funds of the town's hospital is taken up quarterly; and I have given the statement as recorded in the books of the institution. JAMES STIRLING, Clerk. Mr Roiii rt Ross. \[r Robert 7?os.«, Superintendent of the Vagrant Poor in the City of Glasgow, Examined : — 5.523. You arc superintendent of the vagrant poor in the city of Glasgow ? — Yes. 5.524. By whom were yon appointed ? — By the director? of the town's hospital. 5525. How long have you been in the situation ? — Seven years past. 5526. AVhat is the nature of your duty ? — To pass off all strangers to their respective parishes in the first place. 5527. Do you mean those whom you find begging? — Yes, and those who are not, as well. 5528. What means do you take of ascertaining that they are vagrants belonging to other parishes ? — They generally apply to me at the hospital, and if they are not known, I must ascertain to what parishes they respectively belong, in order to send them to their own proper parishes. 5529. And equally so, if you find them begging ? — Yes. If the police find them begging they are apprehended, and are examined ; and if they have no claim here they are sent home to their respective parishes. 55.")0. Have you any superintendence over the regular poor?-— Mr Thomson Is the super- intendent of the regidar poor. 5531. Your duties are confined to those who have no legal settlement ? — Yes, and to children exposed, and deserted by their parents. 5532. Have you any register of the numbers that you so dealt with ? — I have taken an . average of three months. Number of persons whose passages have been paid for by the hospital, from the 1st day of January 1843 till the 31st day of March 1843. To Ireland, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, 33 51 18 1 103 Brought forward, Ayr, Greenock, ... West Highlands, ... 103 1 2 8 114 Besides these 374 travelling through Scotland were Cany fonvard. Amount of expense, 32/. Os. 5d. passed and relieved. 5533. Had these 374 no legal settlement ?— No. Of this number there were passed by the hosj)ital, 147 ; and passed by various parishes in Scotland, and relieved at the hosj)ital, 227. 5534. Has the number of vagrant poor been inci'casing or decreasing? — Increasing. The number of vagrants and beggars apprehended by the police, from 8th February till 22d March 1843, was 514. Of these M'ere Natives of Ireland, 143 Brought forward. 156 England, 10 Natives of America, 2 East Indies, ... 1 Scotland, 356 On the High Seas, ... 2 514 Carry forward, 156 Of the above, 166 had resided iqnvards of three years in the city of Glasgow; and out of that number 40 were natives of Ireland, and the remaining 126 belonged to different parts of Scotland. 5535. How has It been the last year compared with former years ? — The last two years liave been nearly on an equality. 553(5. Do you mean to say that the residence of these parties was industrial ? — Not alto- gether, some were and some were not. 5537. AA'ere any of these apprehended getting parochial relief? — A number from the hospital or kirk-sessions. 5538. Your superintendence does not extend beyond the city of Glasgow? — No. I have also the charge of parties whose residence has not been foimd out. When they are found out, it is my duty to correspond with the ]iarishcs in oi'dcr to get repayment. 5539. Have you the means of ascertaining to what the increase has been owing that has taken place of late years ? — The railways brought in a great many labourers from other places. We had them applying for jiassages every day. 5540. How do you get tliein sent to Ireland?— We pay their passages by the steam- boats. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 317 ,')54L Do you give them relief ?— Yes, in necessitous cases. 5542. I low do you know they go to Ireland? — I send a person down to Greenock with them to see them given over to the captain. Wo have found persons selling their passage lines. I give a man 10s. a week to prevent that. WTien the vessel leaves Greenock, they cannot come out afterwivrds, 5548. Do they frequently return ?— Yes ; I have ])assod some seven or eight times. ,7544. What is the expense of a passage to Ireland ? — We have an arrangement with the steam-boat proprietors to take them for half price. To Belfast, Is. 3d. ; to Dublin, 4s. ; to Sligo, OS. (id. ; and to Deny, 2s. 5545. Do you find that those whom yoit have passed seven or eight times return at stated periods, — are they regular in their visits ? — Not regular ; they oome at times to suit them- selves. 5546. How long, generally, is the interval ? — I have kiiown them return with the first boat, and often in three mouths and six months, 5547. For what amount can they come back ? — I know they have been tiiken back for Is. often. 5548. You pay n^ore for taking them out ? — Yes, 5540. ^^'hy do you pay more than they pay themselves ?— I have no control over that. 5550. Is there any mode of punishing them for returning after they have been removed ? — That is seldom done. I have known them sometimes sent to bridcAVcll for being sturdy beggars. 5551. But they cannot be punished for coming back? — No. 5552. Have you taken any note of the parishes from which the 227 persons came, that were passed by various parishes in Scotland and relieved at the hospital ? — I could make out such a note. 555.3. Will you furnish us with a statement as to this ? — Yes. 5554. Have you many cases of children exposed ? — ^We had eighteen during the last year. 5555. Did you trace their parents in any case ? — The one-half exactly, — nine of the mothers. One was a native of England ; three wei'e natives of Ireland ; the other five were from different parts of Scotland, 555fi. You did not know to what nation the other nine belonged whom you did not dis- cover ? — No ; I have seen children exposed eight days old. They oome from a far distance to expose them. They come from a distance to the lying-in hospital, and after they come out they expose them. 5557. Could you trace the motives that induced the mothers to expose their children ? — - Some of them were young women — unmarried women — and wished to conceal that they were mothers of illegitimate children : one was a married woman, Avhose husband htid been absent, and who had come home soon after the child was born. 5558. The majority of the nine were single women with illegitimate children ? — AH, with one exception, 5559. ^Vhen persons are sent by the police to the hospital, such as orjjhans, and other cases, is it your duty to visit those cases ?^Ye8, and make inquiry. 5560. What is the proportion of such cases, weekly or monthly, on the average ? — ^I have a book that will show that, from which the following is an abstract : — Exiiininationg. Glasgow. Mr Robert Rosg. n April 1843. Persons sent from the Police to the Hospital, as cases of distress, Orphans, ^-o. Margaret M'Dearmid. Margarev and John M'Clymont, Francis M''GIachlan. Archibald Grant, John M'LcUan, William Kyle. Hugh Malcolm, Michael Ryan. Klizabetn Barker. John Evans, William Allan. Wm. M'Leod and J. M'Kenzie. WiUiam Zolland. John M'Williams. Page 17 . . Samuel M'Cready. Page 128 19 . . Peter and ,Iohn Broadley. 1.31 22 . . Robert and John Renfrew, 134 23 . , George and Robert Drysdale. — 38 . 40 . 66 . James Macpherson, . .Joseph Boyle. , Tliomas Hay. 136 144 103 . , Thomas and S.amuel M'Lean, 164 . .lames Morrison. 169 — ^ , Robert Connall. 171 106 . 115 . , Margaret Campbell. . Margaret Child, 174 110 . 124 . , Fanny Docherty. .. ,Tolm Kellechan. 175 5561. Dunng what period of time were all these cases? — Since the 20th of July 1840, They were almost all oii)han boys as represented. 5562. They gave themselves out as oqjhans ? — Yes, 5563. Was that imposition ? — Every one of them had parents. 5564. Had those children been in the habit of begging, and imposing on persons by telling them they were or[)hans ? — Yes ; they were in the habit of getting shelter in the police- office during the night, and going out in the morning, which is a very bad practice. 5565. Why ? — When they go from their parents, the boys meet with vicious companions, and though tliey may not at first be vicious themselves, they soon become so. I am per-» fectly assured it is a great evil. I have heard repeatedly parents complaining that their childien had not come home. 318 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiiiiiiations. OOiii). In the disicliarge of your duty, do you ac-t in concert with the authorities in neigh- (j.t,*soow. bouring paiishes ? — Yes, with the wliole of them, — with almost all the parishes in Scotland. Ml- Hoiicrt Ross 5567. AMiat means do you take in communicating with such parishes as the Gorbals ? — 1 1 April 1B43. Either by letter or calling on them. 5568. Do you couununicate with Ireland previously to sending paupers there ? — ^No. 5569. Do you not communicate in the case of an Irishman ? — No ; we cannot be at a loss there — an Irishman is easily known. .5570. In the case of a Scotchman, do you communicate ? — No, unless he is in a bad state of health. 5571. Othen^-ise you give him a pass without communication? — Yes, to an able-bodied person wishing to get home to his own parish. 5572. On his own statement ? — Yes. 5573. Can you show us the terms of a pass ?— It is merely to pemiit the bearer to pass unmolested from this to such a parish, and request that relief may be given to him if found necessary. 5574. Do you find the Scotch, sent home under these passes, return ? — Often. 5575. Have you the means of knowing whether they go to the parish to which they are sent ?^ — No, we have not ,' I am as careful as possible, but I am often cheated. I have seen them brought to the police-office drunk, with the money they got with their pass to assist them on. 5576. Does it strike you that a workhouse, in wliich improper characters could be kept under restraint, would be of use ? — I think so. 5577. Are they generally able-bodied persons? — Generally. 5578. Able to work ? — Yes ; and some that will not work. 5579. Is the royalty of Glasgow considered as one parish in regard to settlement ? — Yes. 5580. The Gorbals, Barony, and Govan, are separate parishes ? — Yes. 5581. Is there any difficulty in ascertaining, in regard to those parishes, which are the places of settlement ? — No ; the eases would be very easy if the parties themselves would tell the truth. 5582. Have you any law-pleas pending with any parish ? — No. 5583. Have you any disputes with any parish ? — No. We may have sometimes a dispute for a few days ; but we go and inquire together, and we satisfy each other. 5584. In point of fact, you find no practical difficidty ? — No. 5585. Has the number of applicants increased of late ? — Very much. 5586. What is the amount of increase? — About three-fourths. 5587. Have a great many of those sent away returned to you? — ^Not a great many of them ; a number have. 5588. Can you state generally where they have gone to, — to their own parish, or over the country seeking employment elsewhere ? — I do not pass them any;\here but to their own parishes. 5589. And you do not know if they have gone to seek employment elsewhere ? — No. 5590. In regard to the Irish, have you any difficulty in ascertaining as to their tenn of residence ? — They go into lodging-hoiises, and they instruct the landlords what to say. I know an Irish landlord who sent us a person testifying that he had a three years' residence ; and I myself examined the landlord's books, and found that the residence, instead of three years, was only three months. 5591. Would it be more difficult to find the period of settlement if it were extended to seven or ten years ? — It would be easier. The longer a person is in the city, they would be known to more persons. 5592. Do many come from the Highlands? — ^Not a great many; a few from the West Highlands. 5593. Have you the means of knowing whether persons come here, after spending the most of their years in the country, to gain a settlement ? — They often come here to make out a settlement of three years ; perhaps after they are sixty years of age. 5594. Have you instances of that kind ? — A great number. 5595. Could you give in a list to the Commission of the names of individuals who have come to Glasgow for that purpose ? — Mr Thomson has a better opportunity of knowing such cases. 5596. Could you name any instances now? — I have known people coming here from Ireland after they were seventy years of age. I knoAV one of this description on the other side of the water, now on the parish fund. He was able to do a little at the loom. 5597. Was his motive in coming here to claim relief? — I consider that he came here-for that purpose. 5598. Do you recollect any of the highland cases? — There is the case of Hugh INI'Donald from the Island of Mull. I kept my eye on him. He applied, and I had to send him home. He did not get a settlement. He was not able to do anything at all. 5599. Had he fi-iends here ? — None. 5600. IIoAv did he live ? — By begging. 5()01. You defeated his claim to a settlement by showing that he was an object of paro- chial relief when he came here ? — Yes. 5602. Do you recollect any other case ? — A man the name of Charles Stewart, from Ireland ; and he too was imable to do anything. I sent him away twice. Once I sent a man along with him, to deliver him over. 5603. You infer that his motive for coming here was to get relief? — I have not the least doubt but that was his motive. 1 have known Irish widows coming here with five or six POOR LAW INQUIllY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 319 children, and, after completing a residence of three years, they immediately applied. There is the case of a widow Campbell from the highlands. Iler husband died of fever. I gave her a line to pay her passage to her own parish. I got repayment of '61., which were laid out in her case ; and I never saw her again, till she came and said she had completed her residence of three years. 5604. Was the claim received? — No; she had been a pauper all the time. 5()05. Do you know the parish she belongs to ? — The parish of Glenorchy. 5606. Do you know the relief she received? — The Glenorchy people wrote to us to send her there. I gave her tlie means of going home, but I do not know whetlier she went home or not. I heard no more of her till she had completed a residence of three years. 5607. How did you manage to defeat her claim of settlement ? — It was in the right of her husband that she conld have a claim. He died when he had been only three months in Glasgow, consequently she could not gain a residence. She would be obliged to return to his parish, and remain there. 5608. What age was her husband when he came ? — About forty years of age, — a stout man. 5609. Do you suppose he came for the purpose of getting a settlement? — I do not think it. He came to get employment, and got into the police establishment. We are often troubled with old men and women who will not tell us anything at aU about themselves, and are taken repeatedly to the police-office. Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Robert Ross. 11 April 1«43. M?- John Miller, Collector of the Poor Rates for the City of Glasgow, Examined : — 5610. You are collector of the poor rates for the city of Glasgow? — Yes. 5611. How long have you been in that situation ? — Between eight and nine years. 5612. By whom were you appointed ? — By the magistrates and to\vn-council. 5613. Is it your sole occupation? — Yes. 5614. Have you an act of parliament to regulate the assessment ? — Yes. Nearly three years ago the system of rental was adopted. 5615. Has the rate per poimd remained the same for some years, or has it varied ? — It has increased every year since the new act. 5616. Wliat is it now? — Is. 2d. a pound. 5617. What was it last year? — Is. 5618. What the year before ?— lOd. 5619. Were the several rates found sufficient for the years for which they were imposed? — I beUeve so. My duty is merely to collect the money and lodge it in the bank, — I have nothing farther to do with the assessment. 5620. The rate is fixed by the magistrates and council ? — Yes, on an estimate lodged by the directors of the town's hospital. 5621. All below 11. of rental are exempted? — Yes, tenants at 11. and under are exempted. 5622. Do the proprietors jiay the half? — Yes, the half of the whole sum. If the owner of the house occupies it himself he pays the whole sum. 5623. How is the value ascertained ? — Surveyors are appointed, who take up a survey of the rental, and rate accordingly. 5624. In making their valuation, do they make allowance for repairs? — They make an allowance, but I do not know whether it is for repairs or not. 5625. How much do they deduct ? — Upon dwelling-houses ten per cent. ; and on places of business one-sixth of the amount of the rental. 5626. Have you any considerable number in arrear at the end of the year? — Yes, from 1100 to 1200 persons are In arrear. 5627. Have you any book that shows the classes from 11. rent to 10^. ; from 10/. to 20/., and from 20/. to 30/., and so on ? — I have no book here ; but I could send you a table from the ward books to show the classification. 5628. Be good enough to send it. Do you consider that the amoimt of assessable property IS increasing or remaining stationary ?— It must have increased considerably. A great many old buildings have been taken down, and more valuable properties erected, which increases the rental. 5629. Has the population increased much duiing the last two or thi-ee years ? — I have no doubt it has. 5630. The better sort of houses has Increased as well as the population? — Yes. 5631. The assessment per pound next year would probably bring In a larger sum? — Although it has Increased hitherto, I do not say It will increase next year. 5632. But the total sum to be levied wlU probably be larger than it was three years ago ? — Yes. If the rate continues to be the same, and the value of property increases, of course a larger sum will be raised. 5633. Is there a discretionary power given to the magistrates to exempt persons under 10/. value ? — There is a discretionary power. 5634. Have the magistrates not the power to give relief to tenants of any description from their proportion of assessment ? — They are In the habit of doing that where there is a plea of poverty, and where they consider It a proper case. 5635. Are you obliged to resort to legal proceedings ? — We are veiy lenient In this. 5636. Is the number exempted this last year greater than the preceding year? — The number is rather on the Increase, but not to a gi-eat extent. Mr John Miller. ^20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiiiiiiatioiis. 5637. Is it your duty to visit the houses, and receive the money payable ? — It is payable Olasoow . jj^ j^jjg oflScp^ mij collected out of doors by the outdoor collectors. Mr Johii Miller. 5638. YolU' collection extends only to the royalty of the city ? — Only. U Ai>jil 1«4». 5039. Did you collect under the old system ? — Yes, 5640. Have you been able to form any, opinion of the present system ? — It is better in tiome respects now ; but still it has its faults. The former system was very odious in con- sequence of its inquisitorial nature ; and that is the reason that the system was altered. 5641. Does the present mode give satisfaction ?— Generally speaking it does, except nmong the lower classes, who were not in the habit of paying poor rates. They did not twsess under 300/. at first. For two or three years they went as low as 200/., and 100/. The low payers object, because previously they had nothing to pay at all. Wednesday, 12th April 1843, HEMBEBS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. K.Fiii.tiav, E.^q. Robert Fbidlay, Esq., Treasurer of the Town's Hospital, Glasgow, Examined : — 12 April'] a43. 5642. You are treasurer of the town's hospital ? — Yes. ij643. How long have you been so ? — For many years. 5644 Your only concern is to receive the money collected ? — Yea, and to dra^v checks on the bank, upon orders from the governor of the house. 5645. You have no charge with the imposing of the assessment ? — None, except being a director ew officio. 564(5. The assessment is imposed by the tow^n-council ? — Yes, from an estimate made up by the directors of the town's hospital, of what they may deem to be the expenditure of next >-ear. 5647. How many years have you been treasurer ? — I could not say, — I think about twenty years, speaking at random. 5648. Has the assessment been increasing lately ? — It has fluctuate^l a good deal, but lately it has been on the increase. 5649. AVhence does that arise ? Is it from the increase of the poor or the increase of the allowance ? — They have been giving an increase in the allowance recently ; but it arises more from an increase of the poor, and the expenditure on medical aid. AA^e had only four district surgeons at one time, — we have now probably twenty. There is also another rea- son : — there is more latitude given to kirk-sessions to appropriate certain portions of their collections to the objects of education in their parishes. Another cause is, that many of the churches now appropriate their collections to the support of the churches, instead of giving them to the poor, — the quoad sacra churches, for instance. 5650. The collections formerly at all your churches used to go to the poor's funds ?— Yes. 5651. It is only within the last two years that the town's hospital has been placed in its present establishment? — A change in the regulations took place about two years ago ; but at various times there were important changes in the constitution of the hospital, 5652. The present mode of assessment was only introduced a few years ago ? — Yes ; but I am speaking of the general regulations of the hospital. Frequent changes have taken place at different times in its practical working, 5653. Have you reason to know whether the new mode of assessment by the rental is more generally approved of than b^' the former mode of means and substance ? — There is a great variety of opinion on that subject. It falls now more severely on several classes of pe'ople who formerly paid little, such as shopkec[)ers and warehouse ]ieople. Then it comes heavily on classes of builders who expend large sums of money in building houses, and men of small capital, who occuj)y extensive premises. 56r)4. You take little charge of the internal management of the hospital ? — A'^ery little. 5655. Are the committees well attended ? — Yes, the weekly committee is faithfully attended. The duty is most arduous. 5656. Do you go on the principle that the allowance is sufficient for the mauitenance of the poor?— Our paupers are of two classes. Those in the house are entirely maintained from the ftmds ; those out of the house have merely assistance. 5657. You would not allow them to be public beggars ? — Not if we could helj) it ; but some are so in spite of any efforts that can bo used. 5658. You admit none on your roll except those who have a legal right ? — None ; but we POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 321 give allowance to the occasional poor, and of course some maintenance to those whom we transmit to their own parishes. 5659. Do you find inconvenience from the legal settlement being acquired in three years ? Would you propose a change in that ? — It is a difficult matter to control that. Many people come here in search of employment, and many of them come in a state bordering on desti- tution, and contrive to live here ; and you cannot say that they did not maintain themselves. 5660. As an inhabitant of Glasgow, have you had occasion to remark the number of public houses that exist ?— I have had often occasion to remark that. 5661. Do you consider them too numerous ? — Infinitely too numerous; there are upwards of 3000 in Glasgow and suburbs. 5662. Does it consist with your observation that the number has been increasing of late ? — I do not tlilnk it has at all diminished. Witii an increasing population, there must be an increase in drinking. I think it has increased since whisky was made cheaper. Women frequently get drunk here, which you do not see to such an extent anywhere else. This pro- pensity is quite shocking in our city and suburbs. 5663. Has the number of public houses increased or diminished? — Efforts have been made by the city and county magistrates to check the number of licenses granted ; but I have never been satisfied that anything effective has been done to diminish the number of public houses. 5664. Suppose that half the number of public houses were done away with, would that be an improvement ? — They would be much more easily controlled by the police if this were the case. 5665. Have you access to know the number open on the Sabbath day ?— I could not venture to say the niunber that are open on the Sabbath day. A vast number are open at all hours ; I fear the exceptions are on the wrong side. 5666. Do you know what is the condition of provident banks ? — They are getting on very prosperously here. 5667. From your personal knowledge, do you know this ? — Yes, I have myself been one of the directors of the Provident Bank since 1816. 5668. What class of people deposit in the Provident Bank ? — We restricted our collec- tions to 10/. AYhen we collected to that amount, we transferred the accounts to other banks. The amount is not so much limited now. 5669. Do those wlio deposit consist of servants or working people ? — They consist of all classes. A great many are domestic servants. The National Provident Bank 1ms col- lected a large sum. 5670. Are the accounts of the collector of the town's hospital audited ?— Yes. 5671. How often ? — I am sure I cannot tell. Exiiniiuntioiisi. Glasgow. R. Findlay, K^.j. 12 April l»43. LETTER addressed to the Chairman of the Commission. Glasgow and Ship Bank, 12ected to arise, and who regard themselves, from the hopelessness of their condition, as doomed to a life of wretched- ness and crime. Much might be done to relieve the misery, and to repress the crime of this destitute population, by compelling attention to personal cleanliness, so as to remove and prevent disease — by placing the lodging-houses for the destitute under proper regidations — by preventing the assemblage of a large number of persons into one apartment — ^by opening up and widening the thoroughfiires, and forming new streets, whei-e^cr practicable — by causing the houses to be properly ventilated, and all external nuisance removed, and by an improved plan of sewerage for carrying away all impurities. Were it possible to adopt measures something similar to these, the health of the community would be gi-eatly un2)roved, and by the breaking up of the haunts of vagrancy, a happy check would be given to the spread of profligacy and crime. Drinking prevails among this class, and numbers of the lowest public houses in the city are exclusively dependent on them. I have no doubt that the bands of Irish who locate themselves in the city from time to time, tend materially to increase pauperism and exercise an evil influence both on the moral and physical condition of the native poor. A great pro- portion of the lowest lodging-houses in the city are kept by them, but this, in some instances, may be more from necessity than choice. I have known many instances of poor Irish women being, in consequence of the death or desertion of their husbands, and the want of friends to assist them, obliged to have recourse to this mode of gaining a livelihood. The ■usual charge for lodging in these dens is 3d. per night, or if taken by the week. Is. Cd. The small brokers who prey so fearfully on the poor and working classes, are nearly all Irisli. III.— PUBLIC HOUSES. Low public houses 'are productive of evil to a fearful extent, [see my remarks on booths, «S;c.] and I have always been of the belief that three-fourtlis of the crime and pauperism in the city originated in habits of drunkenness. I am of opinion that except in times of com- mercial distress, such as the present, drunkenness is the principal cause of destitution. In 1839, there were within the royalty of Glasgow 1220, and in the suburbs, 1080 licensed pubUc houses, or other places for the sale of spirits. In 1842, the number in the royalty was 1086, and in the suburbs 1040, being a decrease in all of 174. I think the number of public houses should be considerably diminished — that the sole power of granting licenses should be given to the magistrates of the city and suburbs, and that parties whose applications have been rejected, should have no power as at present to appeal to the Quarter Sessions ; the magistrates being the constituted guardians of the community, and of course presumed to be the best judges in all matters relating to the police. [See p. 9. State of Crime.] The hours of opening public houses should be regulated by the magistrates. They should not be opened sooner than half-past six a.m., or kept open beyond eleven I'.M. Working people are attracted to these houses when passing to their work in the mornings. Common spirit cellars should be shut all Sunday. Eating houses, coffee shops, &c., should be established in various parts of the city, and encouraged by the authorities. Grocers, victuallers, &c. shoidd not receive licenses to retail whisky. Storekeepers, managers, and foremen of public works, should not be licensed. IV.— PAA\T^BROia:RS. There are thirty licensed pawnbrokers, and upwards of 200 small unlicensed brokers within the royalty, besides about 300 dealers in old clothes, &c., who have no shops, and reside in various ])laees, both within and beyond the parliamentary district. There are also a number of what are called wholesale dealers from Ireland, who visit the city weekly, and purchase very extensively from small brokers and others. A few of these even ship quanti- ties of old clothes to America, but it is beheved the greater part is disposed of in the Irish market. The articles or parcels pledged with the licensed pa^vnbrokers wiU average about 2000 each per month, and the advances on these articles will amount in all to about 11,000L The following is a statement of parcels pledged with pawnbrokers, and sums advanced on them in one month : — 324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiiiinatiimt. (Jr.ASoow. ('aptairi Miller. 12 April 1843. Number of parcels pledged with thirty licensed pawnbrokers in the month of February 58,407 2000 24,000 720,000 870 4,440 13,200 so 1843, 8uni advanced on ditto, ... ... ... L. 10,167 19 10 Average number of parcels taken in per month by each pawn.. broker, ... ... ... ... ,,, Average ditto per annum. Average ditto, taken by the whole pawnbroker per annum. Average sum advanced by each j)awnbroker per month. Ditto advanced by ditto, per annum, ... ... Ditto advanced by the whole pawnbrokers per annum, The authorised rate of interest on these advances, is 20 per cent, on sums under 21. 28 and 15 per cent, on higher sums. At least four-fifths of the advances are under 2/, 2s that the highest rate of interest is generally chargeable. I have no means of ascertaining the amount of business done by unlicensed brokers, but I am aware that it is immense. Not being regulated by law in charging interest, each fixes the rate as he thinks proper. They seldom charge less than Id. per week on each shilling advanced. Articles are often pledged for a mere trifle, which the owners are not able to redeem within the time stipulated (gene- rally about a month), and thus the brokers become the owners of these unredeemed articles, although, as is sometimes the case, they may be worth ten times the sum advanced. It is a very common thing to see the father or mother of a family enter one of these shops, with some article of furniture or dress, which has been abstracted from their dwelling, for the purpose of raising a few pence, to enable them to satisfy their insatiable craving for whisky. Such families, as may naturally be supposed, are in misery from one end of the year to the other, and the conduct of the parent has frequently such a demoralizing influence on the child, that the latter becomes the worse of the two in vice and debauchery. Such parties must eventually become paupers. A strong effort should be made to suppress unlicensed pawn shops, and prevent improvident persons from raising money on such ruinous terms. v.— PUBLIC AMUSEMENTS, BOOTHS, &c. Great evil arises from j'oung persons attending shows or booths, and it is very desirable that some properly regulated places of amusement and recreation, of a rational description, should be provided for the working classes. In the shows or booths alluded to, a number of which are about the foot of Saltmarket Street, a species of dramatic performance is carried on at a very low rate of admission ; and, although there may not be anything expressly to inculcate imnioi-alityjSuch is the tendency of the exhibition. They are frequented by persons, young and old, of Doth sexes, and of every shade of character, the majority, however, being imder the age of fifteen. Shopmen, trades- men, factory girls, domestic servants, and others, of fair character, are mixed up, and may be seen in familiar intercourse with the most worthless and abandoned. The inexperienced youth, of both sexes, are invariably watched and sought out by the vicious, with the view of being robbed or led astray ; and an adjournment to a tavern or a pye-shop, at the close of the performaHce, is the general prelude to their attempts. In this way vicious tastes and habits are formed, and hundreds irretrievably undone. One show at the foot of Saltmarket Street, contains seldom fewer than from 800 to 1000 per- sons. Another from 200 to 300; and two others from 200 to 250; and, in each of these places, there are generally four perfonnances a night, and on Saturdays five or six. Many instances have come under my notice, in which children were first induced to steal, in order to obtain money to take them into these shows. In a letter I received sometime ago from Mr Gilchrist, governor of the house of refuge, that gentleman states that, on carefully examining the boys sent to the institution, as to their predominant desires, he finds that shows and the theatre are the most attractive to boys who have gone, or are going astray, and that out of 200, no fewer than 75 mentioned the frequenting such exhibitions as their prevailing desire, and that a large part of the remaining boys in the house, had also been in the habit of frequenting the shows. Young persons also, who have been the chief support of their parents, are frequently dismissed from their employment, in consequence of the evil habits contracted by them in these shows, and sometimes whole families are thus reduced to miserj- and starvation. VI.— VAGEANCY. As before stated, the town's hospital only accommodates about 400 paupers, and this accom- modation has not been increased in proportion to the increase of the population for the last fifty years. In the large [)arishes of Barony, Govan and Gorbals, no hospital whatever exists, nor are paupers from these parishes admitted into the town's hospital. Almost daily applications arc made to the sitting magistrate in the police court for admission to the towii's hospital, but although the a])])li('ants apj)ear to be proper objects for admission, a great proportion of them arc rejected in conse((ucn('e of the want of acconnnodation. The hospital is about to be removed to the building in Parliamentary Koad, at jjrescnt occupied a« a lunatic asylum, and this building will, I believe, accommodate a considc'rable number moi-e than the old one, but still it is not available to pau))ers belonging to the parishes before mentioned. I would recom- mend one large hospital for the whole city and suburbs, in which the aged and infirm could be maintained. There should be in connexion with it, a receiving house, where all parties applying for temporary relief, as well as strangers wishing to be passed to their respective POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 325 pjirlahes ctmld he taken in, till their applications are investigated and disposed of. The sitting magistrate and superintendent of police arc often obliged, in oonsoquence of the diffi- culty of obtaining passes, to pay the expenso of sending poor persons to their homes, &o,, from ])rivatc funds, Poor pei'song have great difficulty in procuring temporary aid, although resident for many years in (ilaiigovv, A poor woman who was lately sent for by the sitting magistrate, in reference to her daughter, who was charged with theft, stated that she was unable to do anything for her, — that another child which she was carrying in her arms at the time was jn a dying state, — that she had been left with five children quite destitute by her husband, who had taken up with another woman, — that she had applied at the town's hospital for relief, but was refused on the ground that she had no legal settlement, although she had been residing in Glasgow, and the barony parish, for many years, but not for tliree years in any particular parish. This is one of n^any cases that occur almost daily, and shows the necessity of some alteration in the law. The poor woman referred to received temporary aid from the sitting magistrate, and was supplied with some articles of clothing placed at my disposal. There shoukl be paid agents for the purpose of maintaining a general inspection over the poor of the city, and reporting on all applications for relief, The oidy other institution in which any pi-ovision is made for the destitute, (though only of a temporary chai'acter) is the night asylum for the houseless, where about sixty of both sexes obtain refuge for the night, and about forty-two, nearly support themselves in the institution, It will be seen fi-om the last report of the directors of this institution, to which I beg to refer, that 10,709 j)ersong got lodgings, &c. in the course of the yeiir, ending 16th September 1842 ; and that of this number 4367, are said to have belonged to Glasgow, and the parishes of Barony and Gorbals, Total number of persons brought to the police office for begging on the streets since 6th February 1843, and whose cases were ordered by the sitting magistrate to be inquired into by the different parish officers — 541. Of this number there resided in Glasgow, according to their own statements, . . . 348 Barony parish, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 87 Gorbals, do. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 14 Had no residence, .,, .,, ... ,,, ,, .., 92 VII.— DISEASE. 641 I As medical men will be much better able to afford the most valuable information upon this head, I have only in addition to what I have already stated under the head of " moral con-, dition of the poor," to point out the great want of hospital accommodation in the city for persons labouring under infectious diseases. I am of opinion that a board of health should be established with power to erect district hospitals, and in short to carry out the clauses contained in a bill brought into Parliament in 1838, as well as in that brought in last session bv the magistrates of Glasgow, but afterwards withdrawn, and which were prei)ared by Mr Davie, town-clerk. These clauses were prepared after mature deliberation, and I beg to make special reference to them, Numerous persons apply daily at the police-office with medical certificates of their being fit patients for the infirmary, to be recommended for ad- mission by the sitting magistrate or superintendent of police, but all such are refused, and the poor creatures obliged to drag themselves about in search of some subscriber who will recommend them. The practice at the police-office is to recommend only such persons as are seized with fever while in the office, or are brought in fi-om the streets in a helpless condition. It is notorious, that many poor persons labouring under fever and other diseases are turned out of lodging-houses, and left to lie on the streets, so that the police have no alternative but to carry them to the office, and get them sent to the infirmary, thus entailing on the corporation a heavy annual expense. To meet all such cases, the sitting magistrate or superintendent of police, should have the power of sending to the infirmary all persons certifieund exposed beyond the limits of the royalty shall in future be sent to the barony parish authorities." In consequence of this, I ■was specially instructed " to transmit all children found exposed beyond the limits of the city to the proper parish authorities ; and j)articu]arly children found in the barony parish to the barony parish authorities." In reference to this order, I put this on record : " The superin- tendent has instructed lieutenants as to this order ; but he has now respectfiilly to submit to the board the impossibility of complying with it in all cases. If an infant child is brought POOE LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. , 327 in diji-ing the night, there is no other way of having it taken care of and properly nursed, till ExaminatioBs. notice can be sent to the proper authorities of the parish in which it is found, than sending it Olassow. to the town's hospital. Infunt children brought in from the barony parish early in the Caiitain Willtr night cannot be kept in the office till next forenoon without endangering their lives ; and the 12 April ifi-j:*." superintendent earnestly begs that the board wUl represent to the authorities of that i>arish the necessity of having some projier person, in the neighbourhood of the office, to t.ike care of such children, or arranging with the town's hospital to take care of them as formerly." A considerable jarring takes place between the barony parish and the town's hospital, I gi\e an instance on the subject, — a case in which a child was found in the Parliamentary Road, head of Buchanan Street. The child was brought to the office and sent to a peison in the neigh- bourhood to take care of it. The town's hospital refused to take the child the foUowmg morning. They stated that we should ascertain the parish in which it was found. It came out that the policeman found the child a little beyond our bounds. The town's hospital re- fused the child, wliich was kept by a poor woman in Bell Street, for five or six weeks, and she has been refused her expenses. An action has been brought for the child's boai-d, — it id before the court at this moment. 5701. That observation merely applies to Glasgow and its neighbourhood? — Yes. 5702. You do not include Govan ? — Yes, I would include Govan also. 5703. The quarter sessions are in the liabit of granting licenses to persons who have been refused by the magistrates? — They have in many cases. I have attended the quarter sessions along with my officers. I report cases to the magistrates before they go to the quarter sessions ; and when the applicant appears at the proper time to apply for his license, he may be told, " You cannot get a certificate : your house has been represented as indiffe- rent, or of bad repute." The officers of jwlice are put on their oaths iii regard to the statements they make. 5704. Do the quarter sessions after this receive appeals from the magistrates ?— Yes, they review the judgment of the magistrates. I have on many occasions attended, and stated to the court the character of individuals, and the classes of persons frequenting their houses ; but they have not in all cases paid attention to my statements. If there are plenty of public houses in any particular district, the magistrates do not grant certificates. I tliink the magistrates are the proper judges. 5705. Is there any separate conmiission of the peace? — None, 5706. Have you reason to know whether pubhc houses are kept oi)en on a Sunday in low parts of the town ? — I believe, during the hours of divine service, all are shut ; but some of them, after the houi-s of divine service, think they are entitled to open their shops. This is not general throughout the city, but many do. 5707. Can you state the number? — I cannot say they are very mmierous. "We see the gas bui-ning from the top of the doors as we pass along. Some of them open then- doors. AVe have not the power within ourselves to check it. 5708. Do your observations apply to grocers' or spirit shops ? — To spirit shoi>s. They should be shut all Sunday. 5709. Are the quarter sessions numerously attended on such occasions? — Sometimes three or four justices attend, 5710. Are they resident in Glasgow, or the country? — They are resident in Glasgow : they take their turn of the duty. The clerk of the peace gives them notice. I have seen some from the country a little way occasionally attending. I believe they take this duty in rotation. 5511. To whom does the clerk of peace give notice — to the justices? — Yes. 5712. Are your observations as to the state of the poor merely incidental, or occasional, derived from the discharge of your duty, or have you had large opportunities of observation besides? — Yes, particidarly in the years 1841, 1842. The rations served out to the poor was the work of the police. The officers visited all the houses, and left soup-tickets for the numerous classes of individuals considered in want. This gave me an opportunity of ascer- ta,ining their condition. 5713. Did you find many cases of able-bodied persons being in want and penury during this period? — In the vennels, Havannah Street, Burnside, wyuds, and such localities, there are tew provident persons, and there was found a great amount of destitution even among able-bodied men. 5714. Do you know any instances of able-bodied men being in great destitution ? — Yes. 5715. The great amount of destitution was found among the improvident ?— I had no means of judging of that. In the return already alluded to, 300 of the persons vi.«ited M'cre widows, of whose habits I coidd have no knowledge ; and I recommended that 300 of the number, not being proper objects of outdoor relief, should be removed to the town's hosjjital. 5716. You reconnnend that there shoidd be paid agents ?— Yes. 5717. Do you refer to the barony parish, or to the city ? — To the city. 5718. Are you aware that there is a paid inspector in the city? — Yes, Mr Thomson. 57iy. Woidd you recommend a greater number being employed? — Yes; it is impossible that he can properly attend to all cases. That duty, to be done well, woidd requue sLx paid agents for the city alone. 5720. Do you not think the duty would be performed with equal efficiency, if there were a considerable staff of elders and deacons in each parish ? — We have at i)resent ten parishes. The number of elders and deacons I do not know, but they amount, as I believe, to about 280 ; and yet, I fear, the duty is not efficiently performed by the elders and deacons. 5721. Have you had an opportunity of observing any change in the habits of the people, from the extension of religious instruction by means of new parishes and Sabbath schools ? — . I have. A great many children receive part of their education in Sabbath schools. 328 . MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E.Tamin.itimis. 5722. Was not the establishment of the parish of St Luke's, under Mr Fowler, productive Glasgow. ^,f great advantage ?— Yes. (•i»i.t»i» Miller. 5723. Have you found any difference in the parish of St John's, in cases coming before 1.' Ai'iil liiii. the police court, as compared with other parishes? — Very little crime comes before us from 6ome parts of St John's. 5724. Have you made any observation as to St John's parish, compared with other Earishes in the same condition ? — It will be seen from the report I drew up in 1841, that I ave visited a good deal of that parish. 5725. AA^ould you say there were less cases of riot in St John's than other parishes of the same condition ? — I have no hesitation in saying that there is less. 5726. You refer to the report of Dr Cowan, in which it is mentioned that a number of persons died from want of nourishment, — have any cases come under your knowledge of that kind ? — Yes, if I am able to judge. Sometimes I have seen poor creatures having no bed, nor a rag to cover them, but their miserable and scanty clothes, lying in a damp dwell- ing, and in fever. It requires no medical man to give an opinion on this. I have seen it frecjuently. I have instructed my officers to enter such cases into theii" reports ; and have often given some temporary relief, or sent a blanket. 5727. Were these cases attended by the district surgeons? — I should think so, 5728. AVere such cases in the barony ? — I do not know of the barony particularly, — my observations apply to the city. 5729. Do you find that tlie habits of the begging community lead to petty offences — I have no doubt of it. The youth commence by begging, and go on to commit offences. 5730. Is begging punished strictly in Glasgow? — It has not been punished for the last few years, although cases occur occasionally of pimishment, for instance in the case of sturdy beggars who have been repeatedly admonished by the magistrates, and arc confined for a short period. 5731. Why are they not punished strictly ? — From a conviction of the distress that pre- vails in the community, and the small allowance granted by the parish. A great many cases come under our notice where the parties state that they are in receipt of 4s., 5s. or 6s. a month, \\hich is not sufficient to keep them, and they are obliged to go out and beg. 5732. I would infer from your statement, that the small allowances do not tend to raise the lower orders ? — No ; they have quite an opposite effect. 5733. You recommend an union of the parishes in Glasgow ? — Yes. 5734. For the piu-pose of settlement, or management also ? — -For management, I should say. There is only accommodation in the town's hospital for 400 persons ; what I would recommend in going to the new liouse is, that they should have accommodation for 2500 for the city, barony parish, and Gorbals. 5735. Do you think that would be sufficient ? — I could not say ; but there woidd be no difficulty in placing one's hand on 2500 in a population of nearly 300,000 residing in the !)ari8he8 proposed to be united, that are not proper objects for outdoor relief, and ought to )e su[)ported within the walls of an institution. 5736. In this number you do not include able-bodied persons ? — No. 5737. Do you contemplate giving relief to able-bodied persons ? — That is a difficult ques- tion to answer. 5738. Do you find able-bodied persons beggars ? — Yea, they have been very nmnerous of late. 573i3. In regard to that class nuist they not in many cases either obtain relief or beg ? — 'I'hey must do something, if work is not procured to them. They must be employed in the workhouse, or temporary relief given to them. 5740. In the absence of all relief to that class, you would employ thorn in the workhouse a.H a motive of enforcing the laws against betcffinjir ? — Certaiulv. 2741. Do you think it woidd be practicable in Glasgow to abolish assessments in all future cases, and have the poor maintained by collections at the church doors ?■ — It woidd never do at all. I don't speak of Glasgow alone, but in all large towns nothing short of compulsory assessment wiU do. 5742. Would not the intrusting the poor to the establishment of kirk-sessions have a moral effect on the people ? — No doubt of it. 5743. If all the parishes were united, what kind of board of management would you pro- pose ? — I woidd propose a general board of management for the united parishes, with a suffi- cient number of paid agents subject to their control. 5744. Would 2000 persons in a parish not be too great for one board? — The general board alluded to should have the management of the whole parishes. 5745. You said you thought the administration by kirk-sessions would have a moral effect : would you give them additional powers to what they have at present ? — I have already re- commended a general board. 5746. Do you mean that kirk-sessions should have a share in the management, or that paid agents should be solely responsible to them ? — The answer to the last query applies also to this. 5747. In regard to the system of passes, by which paupers ai*e sent to their own parishes, is that a good system, or does it j)romote vagrancy ? — Tlie present system of passing vagrants is very loose. All that is done is to provide them \vith ii printed pass, — give them a little temporary aid to carry them to the next ])arish, where they again apply for aid ; but I be- lieve that some of them only go to the outskirts of the city, and find their way back in a few hoin-s. This refers only to pauj)ers sent to inland parishes. Those sent to England or Ire- laud get their passage ])aid, and of course do not i"etum. 5748. The parish offic>>r docs not go with him ? — No. POOR LAW rNQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 329 5749. Have you any security that he will go to his proper parish ? — No. Examinations. 5750. Has not this system a tendency to promote begging? — I have no dovibt of tliat. Glasgov. 5751. In regai-d to a pauper going to Dundee, might he not beg his way till he is near Captain Miller Dundee, and not go there at all? — -Yes, that has been often done, although it is understood 12 April l!!4;i. that after leaving the city they go to their own parishes. 5752. Would it be desirable to have a law of removal, so that the pauper should be sent to his parish in Scotland in charge of an officer ? — This would be attended with an enor- mous expense. 5753. You think it is better that the system of passes should be continued ? — I think that a party who returns after receiving a pass should be punished, — that is the only thing we can do in the event of a person returning. 5754. Do you think there would be no objection to his begging if he was on the strict line of his road ? — The magistrates do not inquire into this. 5755. But does he beg his way to his parish ? — Yes. 5756. Is that a good system ? — It cannot well be changed. He shows his pass, and he gets his 6d. or Is., and begs his way fi-om one parish to another. 5757. Do you think this a good system, — does it not encourage vagrancy ? — It is not a good system. 5758. Is there an efficient system of medical relief in Glasgow? — We have got a good many district surgeons. If a person takes unwell, application is made to his elder, who gives a line to the district surgeon to attend on him. If he is seized with fever, he is taken to the fever ward of the royal infirmary. All fever patients recommended by the district surgeons, have of late been sent to the infirmary. If it is any other disease, there is no possibility of getting the person admitted into the infirmary, except on an order from a subscriber. A person by paying a guinea annually can give an order. There is no difficulty in getting one of the district surgeons to visit the party. 5759. You stated that there should be accommodation in the hospital for 2500 for the whole parishes ? — I should think there should be that accommodation. 5760. Is that on account of the bad character of parties who should not be trusted with outdoor relief? — I answer by stating, that it was necessary to find accommodation in the town's hospital for 400 persons fifty years ago ; and I think it absolutely necessary, judging from the increase of the popidation, and the inquiries made by me in 1841, to which I have already alluded, that accommodation to that extent should be procured. 5761. That is because parties woidd make a bad use of outdoor relief? — Not in all cases. Of the 1000 cases I mentioned, 300 were women in advanced life and in a bad state of health, and could not be properly attended to in theu" own miserable houses. 5762. You stated that few respectable poor were found among those you visited ? — I mean in those particular locaHties, — the vennels and wynds. 5763. Would not those 300 you allude to prefer living in their own houses?— I think so, if their wants could be properly supplied. From 4s. to 6s. a month cannot support such persons. 5764. While their moral condition remains unchanged, would not many of those aiTange- ments you have proposed leave them much in the same condition in which they are ? — So long as theu" physictd condition is neglected, their moral condition cannot be expected to undergo any change. 5765. But while their moral condition remains unchanged, would not that additional allowance be spent in intemperance ? — As to infirm parties, nothing can be said against their moral condition. From their infirm state and advanced age, it cannot be said that those poor creatures have inqirovident habits. 5766. You mentioned that intemperance was a great cause of pauperism, would not in- temperate persons spend the allowance given to them in ardent spirits ? — The 300 I speak of would not make a bad use of any additional allowance granted to them. 5767. In the retiun prepared by you a few years ago of 1028 persons, you have a column of those receiving relief from the parish ?— Yes. 5768. Supposing any one was to show in fifty cases that they had means which were not represented, and that, therefore, what they received was more than what they stated, would that affect your general views on the subject ? — No. 5769. Are you aware that kirk-sessions are in the habit of limiting their relief to 6s. a month ? — I cannot speak so wcU to the kirk-sessions. 5770. Are you aware that there is a division in the management of the poor between the kirk-sessions and the town's hospital? — Y'es. 5771. Should any arrangements be made to take away the power which kirk-sessions have now ? — I have already recommended a geneml board. In many cases when an appli- cation is made the elders do visit ; but no one would blame elders and deacons for refiismg to go into houses where there was fever, and other infectious diseases. 5772. Supposing kirk-sessions to have the power to give relief to persons in temporary distress, would you take away that power from them ? — The paid agents shoidd inquire par- ticularly into aU applications for relief, and report to the general board the situation in which they found the parties. 5773. You have stated that a gi-eat many able-bodied persons beg? — Yes, within the last ten months in particular. Hundreds, in bodies, had recourse to public begging. It M'as put down. 5774. But in ordinary times, have able-bodied persona had recourse to begging? — ^No. 5775. You said that many of the elders visited cases themselves — have you reason to believe that many of the elders devolve this duty on Mr Thomson ? — I have no doubt that 830 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaminations. Gl.ASUOW. Captain Miller. 12 April 1843. many of the eldei's listen to the story of the parties applying, and give temporary relief without going to the house ; but I believe such parties are visited by Mr Thomson before they are entered on the roll. , 5776. You mentioned the case of a woman w-ith five children who was refused — did they not give her temporary relief? — I think they did. 5777. You have stated that there is a great difficulty here in regard to settlement, and tliink that the period of settlement ought to be changed, — you do not mean to say that the change of settlement would alter the difficulty ? — It would not alter the difficulty. What we experience here is this, that of the poor creatures who apply, some get relief, and in many cases, not. Ever)' person who applies, and has been eight or ten years in the city, should be tixken into some receiving house, and should receive temporary relief until his case should be inquired into. If he state, " I have been six or seven years in Glasgow, though I have not resided three years in one parish — I have been turned out of my house, and liave no place to go to," his immediate wants should be supphcd till liis case is investigated. 5778. But would the parish to which he applies not give him relief in the meantime? — It might ; but in many cases relief is not granted. I do not consider Is. or Is. Gd. sufficient. A person in such a condition shoidd be taken into the house for eight or ten days, till his parish is communicated with. In many instances the small relief of Is. or Is. 6d. is given to get the applicant from the door. 5779. Do you think that refusal is made sometimes altogether? — I have known numerous cases where the party applied to the magistrate in the police court, when the magistrate recommended his case to be referred to the town's hospital ; and notice has been sent back to the mfvgistrate that the party had no settlement ; and even temporary relief was not given, and that person found living for a length of time within the city. 5780. Do persons come m from country parishes to obtain a settlement here ? — I believe it. In many cases they come from remote parts of the country, with the view, perhaps, to get their childi'en into employment, and in a few years acquire a legal settlement. 5781. But do persons come solely for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? — I have no knowledge of that, but I believe they do come with that view. If they come here at an early period of life, or in middle age, there is no reason to think that they come to obtain a eettlement, but to get employment. 5782. Do you consider the cases of the different parties in the report for 1841 to be correct ? — I had no means of testing the accuracy of the statements ; they were taken down as given by the parties themselves, and from what could be judged from their appearance. 5783. Is it your belief that what is down there as to residence is correct ? — I was guided by their own statements as to this. STATEMENT POOR LAW INQUIRY COACMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 331 STATEMENT of CRIME In the City of Glasgow, shewing the Number of Persons brought before the Magistrates in the Police Court of Glasgow, from 1st January to 31st December 1842, and how the Offenders were disposed of, &c. Prepared by H. Miller, Superintendent of Police, Glasgow. Examinations. Glashdw. Captiin Sliller. 12 April law. OPPBNCS9. 3 o How disposed of, &c. > Number of Offences. Fme 4 253 19 1584 Keeping Disorderly Houses, 9 14 23 'J 2 2 2 ^ 8 1 1 23 Drunk on the Streets, *2672 249 2921 1251 „ 6-. 249 „ „ 1369 ' !921 Malicious Mischief, &c. 12 (i 1!) „ ^ 8 4 4 5 18 Deserting their Families, 1 2 3 ^ „ 1 1 ^ 1 3 153 14S 302 ^ « 14t 146 4 i; _ „ 302 Cruelty to Animals, 5 „ b 2 „ '^ — „ „ S 32 - 32 15 ~ 13 ~ ■■ " 3 ~ I ~ 32 Contraventions. Carters Riding on their Carts, &.C. 139 „ 139 35 ^ 12 „ „ ^ 92 139 „ ments, &c Sin 271 649 29 3;- 293 217 „ ^ ^ ^ 56 21 649 Having Vents on Fire, 129 34 163 65 !i 64 2C ^ „ _ 163 Publicans for keeping I rregnlar Houses, &c. 48 17 65 23 4 11- 12 „ „ 9 1 fiS Profanation of the Sabbatli, 51 « 51 4f „ li ^ „ ^ SI Light and Unjust Weights, 28 1- 40 26 ( 2 3 ^ „ ^ „ „ 40 11 R 16 7 3 4 'J ^ „ 16 Vicious Animals, .... 22 1 23 / « IS 1 „ _^ 23 53 ( 62 1 ^ 52 (; „ „ 62 Conveying Spirits to Prisoners, Total, 2 C 4 ~ " 1 " ~ ~ 1 2 ~ ~ 4 6732 2254 1986 .'156 10-: 1571 1360 763 Sll 350 206 1892 67 8986 * Previous to ISth July last persoiis found drunk on the streets, and unable to take eare of themselves, were detained till sober, and then discharged, such persons only as were disorderly being brought before the Court ; but since that time all persons, both male and female, found drunk on the streets, have been detained and brought before the Magistrate, whether disorderly or not. RETURN of the Age, Country, and Degree of Instruction, of the various Offenders for the year 1842 :— I Age. Number of persons whose pledges were f.-rfi-ittd, bailed, or pledged out ; whose age, couiitrj-, and degree of instruc- tion, could not be accurately aacertuined. Number of persons brought be- fore the Court, but who weru un- Hble, from being tipsv and other Total 10 and under 10 to 16. 15 to SO. !» to 30. 30 to 40. 40 to 50. 50 & upwards. reasons, to give their age, &c., when brought to the office. M. F. 33 10 M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. 306 86 697 378 9-, and degree of instruction could not be accurately ascerUiined. Number of persons brought before the Court, but who were unable, from being tipsy and other reasons, to give their age, &c., when brought to the office. otal. InhRWtants of Glasgow. other Scotch. Irish. English. Foreigners. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. 1539 GOO 635 536 433 233 46 26 16 5 1892 67 2171 727 8986 332 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniinations. Gi.ASoow. Captain Miller. 12 April I84:i. Dkore:; of iNSTRiirrioN. Niiitiber of person! who»« plciiffoit were loriViteil, tmil- etl, UT pletlgcii uut ; whu&e Nunib-jr of person* brought before the Court, butwito were unable, from beiiiR Total. Superior. Wdl. Indifferent. Neither read nor write. age, oountrj. ami dagree of instruction couM not be au- cunitely ascertitined. tipty itnd other renwnt. u> Rive their age, Ai-., when brought to the office. M. F M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. 31 2 470 f!6 1526 934 642 438 1092 67 2171 727 8986 RECAPITULATION. Nuuilier of persons whose age, country, and degree of instruction, were ascertained, ... ... ... ... ... ... Number of persons whose pledges were forfeited, bailed, or pledged out, whose age, country, and degree of instruction, could not be ascertainea. Grand Total, Memor.^ndum. — Number of strayed children brought to the oflBce ] since the 8th March to the 31st December 1842, ' Males. 3669 40C3 6732 466 Females. 1460 794 2264 406 Total. 4129 4857 *^* Table III. gives a return of the trades or occupations of persons brought before the jiolice court of the city of Glasgow, from 1st January to 31st December 1842, charged with the oiFences enumerated above. It is too voluminous for insertion ; but this is of less mo- ment, as the document is essential to tlie completeness of the general returns. Note. — In the year 1839 the number of persons brought before the police court, including. j>artie8 charged with conti-avening minor police regulations, as well as those charged with va- rious crimes and offences, was 7G87 ; in 1840, 8947 ; in 1841, 9395 ; and in 1842, 8986 ; but each of these years a very considerable nimiber were sent to the sheriff, justices of the peace, and otlier courts, for offences conunitted beyond tlie police bounds. It will be observed that the number of persons brought before the court in 1841 was much greater than in each of the other years mentioned ; but this is to be accounted for principally by the fact, that a greater number of parties, such as carters, were brought before the court in that vear than in any of the otliers for contraventions, &c. Many offenders (chiefly boys and women) were brought before the coiul; several times in the course of the year, thus making the gross number appear greater than it really is. It is worthy of remark, that in the years 1839-40, when about 200 juvenile offenders were sent to the house of refuge, cases of pocket-picking were comparatively rare ; but it will be seen from the return that offenders of this class have increased, Avhich is in some degree to be accounted for, on the one hand, by the difficulty of procuring employment, and, on the other, by the impossibility of getting such young persons, into the house of refuge from the want of sufficient fimds for the support of that institution. Some boys have been brought before the court three or four times in the course of the year for picking pockets and other offences, who wore considered by the magistrates to be proper objects for the house of rcfiige, although, for the reason mentioned, he cotdd not send them there. It may be expected that such boys will grow up to be experienced and dangerous thieves, if not checked in time. In every large commimity there must be a great deal of crime, the peiiictrntors of which the police are unable to discover, and it is believed, is particularly the case in Glasgow, in consequence of the conflicting police jurisdictions, as well as other local causes. The present return being only for the Glasgow poUcc, cannot show the state of crime over the whole parliamentary burgh. Crime appears to have been, for some time past, on the increase in theiliddlc and Lower Wards of Lanarkshire, as well as in certain parts of the adjacent counties. Few nights pass without several housebreakings and thefts being committed ; and the time of the officei's of the criminal department has been of late so nuich occu])ied, not only in assisting county officers, farmers, and others, in searching for thicAcs and stolen property witliin the city, but also in searching for persons connected with the mining districts, charged with serious assaults and other grave offences, committed dming tlie late strikes, that very considerable interruption has been caused to their own duties. It is impossible to give efficient assist- ance in every case that is reported (however willing to do so) without affecting the proper investigation of cases occurring within the city. A remedy to a certain extent might be suggested, but it has been tliought as well to forbear doing so, as the matter does not come Avithin the scope of this return. Tiie number of persons charged with being the worse of liquor and disorderly, is 4505 ; and this it will be observed, forms a great proportion of the number brought before the court. Of these the greater numl)cr were labourers, and a considerable proportion were tradesmen of very irregular habits, brought in on the Saturday evenings. It is believed t'lat the number of such cases >vould be considerably diminished if the pay-day in factories and other public AAorks were changed from Saturday to another day of the week, as is done with acknowledged advantage in many establishments in Glasgow. In support of this view, the following quotation is made from a report by Dr De Vitric, noticed at page 250 of the recent " General Report by the Poor-law Comm'ssioners in P^ngland on the Sanatory Con- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 333: dition of the Labouring Population of Great Britain," — a document of general interest and great value. Dr De V. says,—" An excellent example is shown in this neighbourhood (Lancaster) by the wealthy manufacturers and tradesmen almost universally paying their men's weekly wages on a Friday evening, (or, what is still better, early on Saturday morn- ing), instead of Saturday [evening], thus putting it into the power of all to spend their money to the best advantage at Saturday's market, and obviating the great temptation which formerly existed of spending their earaings, or a large proportion of them, in public houses and beer-shops after the termination of their weekly labour. It may be said that such par- ties are as Hkely to dissipate on a Friday as on a Saturday evening. The propensity, 1 grant, may be tlie same, but there is no intervening day of rest to shake off the effects of intemperance and indiJgence, and as the workmen must resume their labours on the Satur- day, hence it is that such a regulation exercises not only a salutary, but a provident influence." H. MILLER, Kxaniinatioiis. (JT.ASOOW. (,\apt!un Miller. 12 April 1U43. William Gibson, Esq., Treasurer for the Poor of Govan, Examined : — r .5784. You are treasurer for the poor of Govan ? — Yes. .5785. Are the poor's funds raised by assessment ? — Yes. .5786. Is the assessment assisted by voluntary contributions at the church doors? — Yes. 5787. Under whose management are the funds ? — The kirk-session, and a committee of nine of the rate-payers. These form a committee, and the whole of the funds of the poor are managed by them. 5788. is the committee appointed annually ? — Yes, in August. 5789. By whom ? — By the heritors including feuars, joined with the kirk-session. 5790. Have you any workhouse or hospital in the parish ? — No. 5891. Are the whole maintained out of doors? — Yes, with the exception of lunatics. If they are merely fatuous they are boarded privately. We have six in Greenock, in a private lunatic asylum, under the care of Mr Thomson. 5792. What is the rate of assessment ? — It varies. I shall get information in regard to this, and send it to the Commission — say 3/., 3^/., 3f /. per cent. 5793. What is the average allowance paid to each pauper ? — They are all paid by me. We allow per month from 2s. 6d. to 10s. 5794. What class of persons are they who get 2s. 6d. a month? — A person not actually a pauper, but in embarrassed circumstances ; it is given to enable him to get on better by his own industry ; and we raise it as circumstances may require till it end in 10s. a month, or even till it amounts to 5s. a week, provided there is any imbecility, bodily or mental, by which he cannot do anything for himself, having no other resources. 5795. In the ordinary case in apportioning aliment, do you take into consideration other means of subsistence ? — Yes. 5796. What do you allow a widow with three children under ten years of age ? — We had a case of that description last meeting, a stout young woman with three children, one about a year old, — she was enrolled at 10s. a month ; and if necessary, she will have 10s. at each term to enable her to pay her rent. She is, however, likely to get partial employment in a silk factory, and it is not likely she will require anytliing in the way of rent. 5797. Suppose a widow with one child at the breast ? — She will get as large an allowance as a widow with more children not suckling, — from 7s. to 10s. a month. We have very few cases of that description, probably owing to the amount of private charity existing in the parish. Several of the gentry take a deep interest in the poor. 5798. Do you not find that the assessment stops private charity ? — Not to a great extent with us. 5799. Are you aware of what is the number of paupers on your roll at present? — Sixty- eight monthly poor. Then there is a feature in our administration peculiar, — we assist aged persons, if they are respectable householders, to pay their rent twice in the year. This is preferred by them, because their neighbours do not know that they are receiving allow- ance; and there is no envy, We do not become security for the rent, but we give assist- ance. Last year we assisted sixty-two to the extent of 103/., at various rates from 10s. to 35s. each half year. 5800. Can you give us any idea of the ages of persons on the roll, — how great a number above sixty .'' — A large proportion are about from sixty to seventy-eight, — and all the vari- ous ages ; very few above eighty. 5801. Do you find a great reluctance in persons to come on the roll .' — That reluctance has certainly abated much within the last dozen years, ,^)802. How long have you had assessments in Govan ? — Since 1825. 5803. Have church collections fallen off.' — Yes, but not so much as we might have anti- cipated from the effects of a legal assessment. 5804. Have you quoad sacra parishes ? — Yes. 5805. Are the poor of the quoad sacra parishes under your care .'' — ^No, they are under the care of Mr Cassels. We have no charge of the poor in quoad sacra parishes. I may state that but for the quoad sacra parishes we should not have required to have a legal assessment, as we might by voluntary means have made the poor very comfortable. The burdens come from the suburbs of Glasgow. W. Gibson, Esq. 334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exumiiiatioii-. Glasgow. W. liibsoii, Esq. 12 April l!(43. 6806. Do any part of the quoad sacra collections come to your funds ? — None. 5807. When you speak of the monthly poor, is that the poor according to the monthly list ?— Yes. 5808. Are they all permanent poor ? — All. 5809. Are there any occasional poor ? — Yes. We have to the amount of 40Z. expended on the occasional poor this present year, — people falling into disease, and other temporary causes. During the prevalence of fever, or from mental disease, a shoemaker, for instance, will get 4s. a week. By giving him this assistance he is likely the sooner to recover. This would be included under occasional relief. 5810. Do you pay per month or per quarter? — We pay monthly. 5811. Do you give relief to able-bodied persons out of work ? — Never out of our funds. We have had repeatedly a subscription for them. Last summer we put a number to labour, to break stones, and limited their wages to 7s. a week. 5812. From your long experience in your department, do you think it would be expedient to give a legal claim of relief to able-bodied persons out of employment ? — I should doubt it very much ; at least, in rural districts ; where private charity, and employment contrived for the emergency, should be found sufficient. 5813. Does that observation apply also to able-bodied young women ? — Yes. I would not give relief to such in the ordinary form, but these people should not be left destitute, though there is no legal relief for them. On the contrary, they should be relieved by pri- vate charity ; and they would be as well relieved by private charity, as they would be by us ; and this would not destroy their independence. 5814. Therefore, you think that if you were to give able-bodied men and women a claim to relief on the poor funds it would engender habits of improvidence, and make them less active and industrious in doing for themselves ? — Most distinctly ; there are many excep- tions to that, however. 5815. Have you a surgeon for the poor ? — Yes, we have one for the country. 5816. And for the town ? — Mr Cassells will answer in regard to this question. 5817- You say that you would object to giving relief to able-bodied persons. Supposing the alternative between begging and receiving relief in a workhouse, which do you think the better .' — I look on begging as a great evil which should be put down, not so much by law, as by kindness and humanity ; but I have had no expefience of the workhouse system. I have read of some appalling instances of abuse in 1832, under the old English poor law. 5818. Is it your duty to visit the poor at their own dwellings ? — Yes. 5819. How often do you visit the monthly poor ? — Just as circumstances require. 5820. But on an average of the year ? — I should say once a month probably. If there are any in bad health I see them every week. I have, however, no rule in visiting. I am go- verned by circumstances. 5821. Do you consider that it is possible for one man to superintend sufficiently 1400 paupers ? — Thai depends very much on the locality — how far separate the one may be from the other ; but at all events, it would be very hard work. 5822. How many paupers do you superintend? — -Sixty-eight monthly paupers, and occa- sional poor besides. 5823. Do you grant relief to mothers of illegitimate children ? — ^Ve are very shy in doing that. We have not expended during the last thirty years a sixpence in trying to find out the fathers. 5824. But you grant relief to the niothers ? — Only in cases of disease. We fall on va- rious means to assist them ; that is, we try to find work for them. We do anything rather than encourage that sort of thing. 5825. You do not know any case in which you granted relief to the mother of an illegiti- mate child, who was not in bad health ? — No. 5826. Have you the charge in the whole parish of Govan ? — Yes, on both sides of the Clyde. 5827. Have ypu any statement to make in regard to the funds ? — I have two statements here which I shall hand in, one for August 1840-1841 ; and the other for 1841-1842. WILLIAM GIBSON, IN ACCOUNT WITH THE POOR'S FUNDS OF GOVAN PARISH— LANDWARD. From Uh August 1840 to 3d August 1841. To Drafts on Collector of Poor's Rates, ^499 8 3 Ordinaiy Collections at Parish Church, ... ... 44 11 Hi Dues to Poor from Proclamation of Marriage Banus, ... 30 3 Expense recovered, of Interring a Hody found in Clyde, ... 14 6 Balance Due Kirk Treasurer, 3 7 ;£675 1 3J By 76 Monthly Poor, £\G2 16 4 12 Lunatics, 154 19 3 65 Pei-sons assisted, twice a year, with their Rents, ... 86 19 1 1 Orphans and Foundlings, 61 4 11 Occasional Relief, &c., ... 35 6 2 Salaries : Surgeon, Presbytery Clerk, &c ... 26 6 C Do. Kirk Treasurer, Session Clerk, &c., ... ... 26 5 2 Education, ... ... 9 6 8i Coffins, ... ... ... 7 6 6 Clothes to Orphans, &c., ... 6 11 9 £•575 1 34 WILLIAM GIBSON, Kirl Treasurer. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 335 WILLIAM GIBSON IN ACCOUNT WITH POOR'S FUNDS OF THE JOxAiiiirmtiong. (jLASr.OW. LANDWARD PARISH OF GOVAN. W. r^.ib.son, Esq From M August 1841 to M August 1842. 12 April 1843. To Drafts on Collector of Poor's Rates, £490 18 6 By 13 Lunatics, £172 16 Ordinary Collections at Parish 68 Monthly Poor, 167 18 6 Church, ... 43 15 11 62 Householders to hel ) with Rents , 103 11 2 Marriage Banns Dues, ... 38 14 10 Orphans and Found ings. 67 12 ^ Pecuniary Succession to Jane Wal- ker, a Pauper Lunatic, .. G8 2 6 Occasional Relief, 40 2 n Salaries : Surgeon, Presbytery Mortcloths, Dues for, ... 15 Clerk, &c. &c., 26 5 6 Cash found in pockets of two dead Do. Kirk Treasurer, Session bodiestakenout of Clyde, ... 6 8 Clerk, &c., ... 26 6 2 Education, 10 6 4 Coffins, 7 14 6 Balance due by Treasurer, 1 £612 12 3} 7 £612 12 7 WILLIAM GIBSON, Kirik Treasurer. I Mr John Cassells, Superintendent and Distributor of Pool's Rates for Govan Parish Mr J. Cassells, Annexation, Examined : — 5828. Have you charge of a part of the parish of Govan ? — Yes, the annexation part. 5829. State what that consists of? — It consists of that part of the parish annexed quoad sacra to the Gorbals parish. It incUides Tradestown, Laurieston, and Hutchisontown, in- cluding a population of between 40,000 and 50,000. 6830. What number of poor are there in the annexation ? — The enrolled poor on the list amount to 470 just now, but that does not include young widows with families. 58.31. Have you any statement which you could give us ? — Yes, here is a statement for the last year, and the year previous, of the poor's fund in Govan parish, from 2d August 1841, till 2d August 1842. [See appended to Evidence.] 5832. What number of widows are there with children ? — About 120. A widow, or poor person, making application, is furnished with a schedule according to this form [See appended to Evidence], and it is returned with the questions answered in writing. After being returned one of the members of committee who superintend, visits the cases at the houses of the applicants. 5833. Is it part of your duty to visit all such cases ? — I visit them all ; but I am always accompanied with one or more of the committee of management. 5834. How long has there been an assessment in Govan ? — I cannot say, having been connected with the parish only six years. There has been an assessment all the time I have been connected with it, and a considerable period before. 5835. Has the amount been increasing ? — Yes. 5336. To what do you attribute that increase I — That part of the parish of which I have the charge, is increasing much in population. There are a great many public works in it ; a number of new works have been erected within a few years. Besides, the state of trade has caused a great many to apply that would not otherwise have done so. 5837. Has it been effected by church extension ? — I should think not. 5838. Have the collections of any part of the people that used to contribute to the church collections been taken away by reason of new churches ? — I think not, so far as I know. 5839. You state that another person goes along with you when you make your inspection, — how is he appointed ? — At the annual meeting of the heritors held in the parish church. 5840. Is it a meeting of heritors only, or heritors and kirk-session ? — Yes, heritors and kirksession. Fourteen of the heritors who are living within the bounds of the annexation are appointed to take the charge. 5841. What duty does the kirk-session discharge besides attending the general meetings? — They do nothing more, as far as the committee of annexation is concerned. 5842. Do none of the members of the kirk-session visit ? — -No. The system adopted is this ; the annexation is divided into twelve small districts. One of the gentlemen take it proportionally. Every application is visited by one of them, accompanied by the superin- tendent, find reported. 5843. Do the heritors include all the rate-payers ? — The heritors are included amongst the rate-payers, but there are many rate-payers who are not heritors. 5844. Then the proprietor of every house is not reckoned an heritor ? — No ; only persons possessing land are heritors. 5845. Is it necessary to be an heritor that they should be possessed of a certain valua- tion in pounds Scotch in the county ? — Yes. 5846. Are there any feuars in the annexation ? — Yes. 5847. Are they not considered heritors? — Yes. 5848. I see, in your account for last year, \2l. 12s. charged for education ? — Yes. 5849. That is the education of the poor children on the roll ? — Yes. 5850. What rule do you go by ? — We educate all the orphans and deserted children. 5851. Do you not do the same with the children of the poor on your roll who may have just one parent ? — Not generally. 5852. Have you reason to believe that the education of the children of the poor relieved by you is attended to ? — I think so. 336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Evaiiiinations. 5853. Is their religious education conducted in school ? — I think so ; indeed I have no Glasgow. doubt of it. ^j J p _," ., 5854. Do you give relief to mothers of illegitimate children .■' — We have given it. We i-j Ain-ii iB-is! consider that a female of this descrijition having one child is not entitled to it ; although in many cases we give relief. 5855. When they were in health ? — Yes. SBofi. You have two surgeons to attend the poor? — We have two. 5857. Do they attend those who are sick who are not on the roll ? — They attend all the poor on the roll, and all the poor receiving relief in the parish by my line. Any member of the committee may give them orders to visit any of tlie poor, although not receiving relief. 5858. It is your duty to visit the poor? — Yes, all receiving from the funds, and every new applicant. 5859. How often do you visit ? — Always once a year I go over the whole ground. I visit all at their own houses. 58G0. Not oftener? — Not oftener, except in the case of widows, who get a sum for six months. As their children grow up their aliment is decreased. 58G1. How are the two surgeons paid ? — By a fixed salary, 16/. a year each. 5862. Does attending to the poor take up your time ? — Entirely. 58C3. Would it be convenient for you to attend to them if the number in your list were doubled? — I could not attend to them. I can with difficulty attend to those I have. 5864. Do you think it possible for one person to attend to 1400 poor ? — I can scarcely think it possible. You must understand that I have the paying of the poor also, and the keeping of the books. 5865. What are the usual rates of allowance in your parish to old people who have no means whatever to support or assist themselves ? — 5s. to 10s. a month. 5866. How much to a married couple above sixty who have no means of subsistence 1 — Somewhere about the same sum. We consider that an old man is oftener worse off than an old woman. 58()7. How much to a widow with four children under ten years of age ? — From 8s. to 10s. a month. We have no particularly fixed sum. The committee visit every case themselves, and make inquiry, and they are better able to judge as to the amount to be given. Every application to us is handed in, in order to be immediately visited. 5868. But when a person is once on the list, how often is the case visited ?— Unless I report to them, the committee does not visit except annually. 5869. Do you consider the allowance generally sufficient decently to maintain the pau- pers on the roll ? — I do not think it. It would be a great matter to many of them if the amount were increased. 5870. Are the parties on the roll of good character 1— Generally, there is part of both good and bad. 5871. Are some of them addicted to intemperance? — Yes. 5372. Would you think it desirable to increase the allowance ? — No. I propose that we should not give them money at all ; give them an order for so much provisions in the day. A widow with children got always drunk with her allowance, and we fell on that system with her. 5873. Are there small spirit shops where she could sell her meal ? — I gave it in such small quantities that it would not be an object for any one to buy it from her ; not two days allowance at once. I paid the amount once a month. 5874. Would it not be better to give them the article instead of an order on a shop ? — It might. 5875. What effect is produced on the character of the people by giving them this allow- ance ? — I do not think it beneficial. I think, in a great many cases, they would require more. 5876. Do any of them beg ? — Within a short time 514 persons have been found begging in Glasgow and suburbs, and of these only four lived in the parish of Govan ; two of them were paupers on the roll, and two were not. One had 10s. a month, the other 3s. 5877. Do you consider that the others, though not living in your parish, got parochial relief ? — They got no relief from us ; they had no settlement ; and we sent them to their own parishes. 5878. I see sales of furniture mentioned in this state given in by you, — what do these mean ? — The furniture of paupers who died without relations, and which was taken pos- session of by us. No person claimed the furniture after their death, and it fell to us. 5879. Is it not your practice to take assignations ? — No, we never had cases of that kind. 5880. If a destitute person applies for relief, who has no settlement, do you grant relief ? — We generally inquire into the statement he makes ; and if we find him destitute, though he has no settlement, we generally give relief, or pass him to his proper parish. 5881. Have you many of these cases during the year 1 — It would take me a little trouble to make out the number. We send many by the steam-boat to Ireland. 5882. Do many come back .' — I do not know any cases except one. 5883. Can you state the average number you send away in a year ? — I cannot state that. 5884. Do you assist able-bodied persons ? — Occasionally, but seldom. 5885. Are many of them out of employment? — I received a petition, which caused me to make inquiry, signed by 193 unemployed men. I found, on inquiry, that the number was much less. I caused the men to give me a corrected list, and instead of 193 the list was reduced to 83. 5886. Do single able-bodied women easily obtain employment? — There has been agood deal of destitution lately among that class, on account of many of the public works being shut up. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 337 5887. Do you take into account the other resources paupers may have in regulating the amount of their relief? — Yes. 5888. Have you any disputes with other parishes ? — No. The only parish we have had any trouble witli is the Gorbals parish, which is in the very centre of our parish. We had some little difference about one case lately. I suggested that three of each committee should be appointed on each disputed case that might occur, to inquire into the facts, and decide. This was adopted, and we have had no law-pleas with the Gorbals, nor with any other parish. 5889. Have you any statement to make to us in regard to any point in which you have been examined, — say on the law of settlement.^— I think the period of settlement ought to be extended. I find that in the parish of Govan, one half at least of the paupers are individuals belonging to Ireland. 5890. How many years would you suggest as a term of residence .? — My own private opinion is ten years, or birth. 5891. Some parishes in Scotland are not assessed at all ? — Yes, I have been written to by some that they could do nothing for the poor, because there was no assessment. I have a letter here from the parish of South Uist, of date 28th October 1842, which, if you have no objection, I shall read :— " Sir,— I received your letter of 12th instant, this day, con- cerning Donald O'Henly, late of this parish, and his child, who both died at Glasgow some time ago, and your charge of 2^- 2s. 6d. of money laid out on them, and the freight of his widow for her passage to Tobermory. I have to inform you that, on receipt of your first letter, I spoke to his sister, who is married, and resides on a farm in this parish, called Trobort, and who I understand to be in tolerable circumstances, but had no satisfactory answer, and who declined to pay the amount of your cliarge. There are no funds what- ever in this parish for such purposes, or any purpose wliatevcr of the kind, the people being so poor, and unable to make Sabbath church collections ; the poor or paupers being solely supported by the tenantry, three-fourths of whom are Catholics. — Your most obedient servant, (Signed) RODK. M'LEAN." 5892. Has any pauper come to your pa,rish for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? — I think so. I could not condescend on a particular case ; there was one last week. Our committee oflPered to send her home, and gave her 20s. with her. 5893. Did she go ? — No ; but 1 believQ she will go in the course of a weak. STATE OF THE POOR'S FUND IN GOVAN PARISH, Frmi 2d August 1841 till M August 1842. JOHN CASSELLS IN ACCOUNT WITH GOVAN I'ARISH, 1841. August 2d. To Balance on hand, ... ... .£1 Drafts on Collector, 1900 Lunatic Asylum, returned Board Jas. Rankine, St Quivox Parish, ^oard of William Grange, Town's Hospital for Fever cases, ... Barony Parish, do. do. Abbey Parish, Paisley, advances to Widow Cochran, William Morison's Relatives, part his Board at Anan, Mrs Kane returned from Pension, ... Daniel Kane, do. do. Mi-s Donahou, do. do. Mr Gibson, Govan, for Wm. Yuill's Clothes, Mrs Blair's Relatives, part Board at Hillend, ... Widow GedJes, Cash returned, Expenses recovered. Child exposed, Neilston Parish for Fever cases Mrs Reid's Relatives, part her Board at Asylum, Rev. Dr M' Arthur, Mull, for Fever cases, Rev. Mr Buchanan, Strathblane, for Fever case, S.)rn Parish, Advances to J. Dunn, &c., Sale Mre Murdoch's Furniture, PWin. Wallace's Relations, i)art his Board in Asylum, Part Board of Wm. Curie, in Deaf and Dumb Institution, Sale Mrs Forsyth's Furniture, Oithin Parish, Advances to Margaret Mullan, Recovcied Case, M'Conachie, Dalavich Parish, for Fever c^ses, ... Sale Widow M'Innes' Furniture, ... Part Abram Cairney's Board in Asylum, Kilbirnie Parish, for Fever ca.scs, ... 1 Hamilton, do. do. .., ... Rerivick, do. do. Widow Waugh, 1 I.eith, do. do. for George Hodges, 6 Dunfermline, do. do. for Helen Balfour, 5 R<;turned Asylum, Mrs Reid, ,,. 13 5^ 10 3 14 10 9 6 11 5 1842. August 2. By 356 Enrolled Poor, ... ... i;e28 70 Orphans and Deserted' Chijldren, 3o.T 17 Lunatics, ... ... 189 Unenrolled Poor, ... ... 437 Clothing, ... ... ... 84 Coffins and Graves, ... ... 51 Education, ... ... 12 Office Rent, ... ... 6 2 Surgeons' Salai-y, ... ... 32 Fever cases, ... ... 86 Distributor's Salarj-, ... 90 Balance on hand, ,^. ... 7 10 6 1 17 11 8 7 11 11 17 12 10^ e 16 11 Examinations. Glasoow. Air J. f'asselU. \i April 184:5. jegOOO 2 8^ £2000 a JOHN CASSELLS. 2X 338 MmUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. GlASGOW. Mr J. Cassells. 12 April 1843. No. SCHEDULE -Application of Parish of GOVAN. to the Date. 18 The following Questions to be distinctly answered, and this Application left with the Treasurer. Questions. 1. Age and parish where born ? 2. Present residence, and residence for last three years consecutively, attested by landlords' certificates or rent receipts? 3. Married? Unmarried or widowed? Employment and earnings ? 4. Number of children, their ages, and condition in life ? 5. Number of children who live with applicant ? Their ages ? Employment and earnings ? 6. Any relations able to assist ? Any pen- sion ? Any regular relief from any society or otherwise ? What amount ? 7. Any aliment either now or formerly from any other parish ? ^ 8. Any money or effects in life-rent or fee ? What amount or value ? 9. Present circumstances of distress ? 10. Nature of relief applied for ? 11. Persons referred to, with their address? 1. 2. 3. 5. 8. 9. 10. 11. (Signed) Answers. Applicant. SCHEDULE. Date. Monthly Precept. Monthly Enrolment. FHE8ES. Dr Fleming. Dr Fleming, formerly one of the District Surgeons of the Town's Hospital, Glasgow, Examined : — 5894. You have charge of one of the districts of the town's hospital ?— Six months ago, I had. . . „ TT 3 e • 5895 How long were you in that situation ?— Upwards of six years. 5896. Why did you resign ?— On account of a number of changes that had taken place, I did not find it so comfortable. 5897 How many districts are there ?— There were twelve at that time. 5898. What was the amount of population in your district ?— I had a part of two parishes,— St John s, and St James's. The population was very dense, probably from «000 ° 5899 Your visits so far as concerned the town's hospital, were confined to persons to whom parish relief was given ?— Not entirely. We very often visit the poor, though not on the parish roll. The poor think they have a right to medical charity from the town. It is probably the first relief they apply for. They do not seem to look on it as charity. 5900 You mean working people who are disabled ?— Yes, or their families. _ 5901. In the coiu-se of your visits, have you perceived a great amount of destitution ?— Yes, in some parts. 5902. A great want of furniture ?— Yes, very abject poverty in some cases. 5903 Could you judge whether that proceeded from habits of intemperance, or other faults oif their own ?— Frequently. I would not by any means say generally, but frequently. 5904 Have you any means of ascertaining the general causes that led to their destitu- tion 1— Intemperance, sickness, ravages of fever, early and imprudent mai-nages, and, a very frequent cause, is want of employment. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMmSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 339 5905. Does it appear to you that the amount of allowance received from the hospital Examinations fund has been sufficient to maintain them, either wholly, or in regard to other resources ? Glasgow. I should say that there were many cases that came under my notice, in which it was quite ^ insufficient. Many were in great poverty even with the hospital allowance, and any other i?!'^! •Ti'ii'j sourcesof income that they might chance to have. Thehospitalallowance has been increased '" within the last twelve months. The rate they give, will not, I think, average more than from 2s. 6d. to 3s. a week. That is a very meagre subsistence, particularly when they have rent to pay out of it. A very common expression is, that all we get is not sufficient to pay the rent. 5906. Have you reason to believe that many have recourse to begging ? — Not during the greater portion of my time as a district surgeon ; but within the last twelve months, I have noticed different parties begging who were district patients. 5907. Were the males receiving medical aid more numerous than the females ? — We kept a i-egular account, — the females were about two-thirds. There is a regular record of the males and females in the town's hospital. 5908. Does it consist with your knowledge that the great bulk of those you visited were natives of Glasgow, or from other parts ? — The majority were from other parts, — the high- lands, Ireland, and various parts of Scotland. The locality I had was not so much fre- quented by the Irish as other places in Glasgow. 5909. Did you say it was a rule in the town's hospital that medical aid should be afforded to all poor persons though not on the roll -' — I think the rule is, that the district surgeon is only bound to attend the sessional poor ; but the district surgeons do not adhere to this. They visit extensively the poor within their districts ; and the town's hospital never object to supply medicines. 5910. Does it frequently happen that persons attended in this way, have been obliged to come on the roll from the continuance of disease? — Yes, and from want of employment. They have no idea when they become unwell that there is any need to apply to any other medical man, — they say, we will get the town doctor. 5911. What has been the prevalence of fever in your district ? — I can hardly say, the district was ever free of it. 5912. You do not think it has inci'eased of late? — It seems to come epidemically, and after the epidemic it decreases. In 1837, 1838, it was very bad. 5913. Can you ascribe its origin to the habits of the lower classes ? — I should ascribe its continuance ; one of the great causes of its prevalence in certain localities, is the want of free ventilation, and filth. Some parts of the district which I attended, was very ill ven- tilated and dirty. I believe that is a frequent cause of fever, and a state of cachectic disease generally. 5914. Were you in that situation at the time of the cholera? — No. 5915. Did you receive a regular salary from the town''s hospital ? — Yes, twenty guineas a year, which we always thought too little. 5916. Does that include medicine ? — No, the hospital supplies that. 5917 The number of district surgeons is increased now? — Yes, increased to seventeen within the royalty. 5918. Did anything fall within your observation as to the children of the poor, whether they were attended to in education or not ? — They are not particularly attended to in their education. There are Sabbath schools ; and occasionally, though rarely, some of the fami- lies would apply for a certificate for admission to a charity school. I do not believe I gave during my whole period, ten such certificates. The children appear to be much neglected by the lower orders in Glasgow, both physically and morally. They pay little attention even to their diseases. 5919. Do you conceive that intemperance is increasing, or is there any change in that respect ? — I cannot say that I have remarked any change. It is pretty much in the same state. 5920. Have you reason to believe that the money afforded for relief has been frequently spent in that way ? — I do not think so. In some instances it might be the case, but these were the exceptions. 5921. What average number of cases had you annually .' — About 500. 5922. Had you power to order nutritious diet, such as mutton and porter? — We had power to order cordials, but not meat. There were no arrangements for supplying it. But we had full power to order cordials and wine, and did so. And although not included, I have often ordered soap, &c. for cleansing. 5923. Do you consider that the present system of management in Glasgow works well? — I do not think it works well, either for the poor or the rate-payers. I think it might be simplified considerably. 5924. What is your objection to it? — There is a difficulty, in the first place, in the poor getting relief. They have to apply to the elders, then they are sent to the town's hospital. There are too many forms and particulars for them to go through before they are sup- plied with aid. In' cases of considerable distress, for instance in cases of sickness, the district surgeons do not attend till they receive an order from an elder ; and poor people often do not know who their elder is. 5925. Does not the elder go to visit the poor? — He should do so; whether he does it is another thing. The poor, in moving from place to place, have often a difficulty in knowing the elder of tlie district. I have seen disease far advanced before medical aid was applied for; and the reason assigned was, that they did not know who the elder was. 340 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Bxaniiiiiitions. 592fi. Are the elders in the habit of visiting the poor on the roll, and inspecting their 'j____ ■ cases? — 1 do not tliiiik it, speaking generally; some do. Pi Klf iiiiiig. 5!t27. Do you know whether in many cases they leave that duty to Mr Thomson ? — In 12 April ijus. St James' parish tliey visit very efficiently. 5928. Does it agree with your experience, from what you may have seen of sessional visitation, that the intrusting the administration of the poor to kirk-sessions having a suffi- cient number of elders and deacons, would be an improvement? — No, it would not be done. I had the experience of that in my own district. It was more efficiently done in some parts, however, than others. 592il. From what you know of Glasgow, virould it be possible to dispense with assess- ments, and maintain the poor by collections at the church doors? — I should think decidedly that this would be impossible. 5930. Do yon remember the experiment in St John's parish ? — Yes. 5931. Were the poor not maintained by the collections ? — Yes, for a time under parti- cular circumstances ; but the system was obliged to be abandoned. 5932. Why? — I suppose because the collections had fallen off. 5933. Wliat part of St John's was in your district ? — My district extended from the Spoutmouth to Dill Street, also Burnside ; that included a considerable part of St John's. 5934. Did you find the poor better looked after there ? — They were better looked after in St James'. The management in St James' parish is generally better, and I can only com- pare it with St John's. 1 found it more easy for myself, and more comfortable for the poor. 593."). Did you experience any difficulty in getting the elders to do their duty in St John's ?— Yes". 5936. Do you think there would be a possibility of securing the services of efficient elders ? — They have very efficient elders in St James' ; but it would be very difficult to get elders to attend to the poor efficiently in the worst parts of Glasgow. U can hardly be expected to get gentlemen to do it. • 5937. However desirable it might be to have such a system, you consider that their not being able to get a sufficient number of individuals to discharge the duty efficiently, a fatal objection to the scheme? — I should think so. 5938. Have you anything to suggest that you think might be of use to us ? — -\ have often thought that it would be an excellent thing to have a dispensary where the poor should have the power of applying at once. A central dispensary, where a certain number of surgeons attended at certain hours, would greatly facilitate the working of the medical department. 5939. Is that not done at the infirmary? — There is a dispensary in the infirmary, but it is not in connexion with the poor of the town, but confined to the poor of the infirmary itself. 59J0. Does the dispensary give relief to the parochial poor? — They give advice to any one who applies. From my experience, I would say, generally speaking, that the applica- tion for medical aid is the first symptom of poverty. A. Newall, Esq, Archibald Newall, Esq., one of the Directors of the Town's Hospital, Glasgow, Examined :-;— 5941. You are governor of the town's hospital? — No ; I am a director. 5942. Have you been so for some time ? — For four and a half years. 5943. Have you a general acquaintance with the poor in Glasgow, as well as with the rqanagement of the hospital ? — I know more of the management of the hospital. 5944. Is the management of the affairs of the poor divided into two, — a part under the kirk-sessions, and a part under the town's hospital ? — Yes. The part under the kirk-ses- sions is preliipinary. From the kirk-sessions the sessional poor get an allowance per month until it reaches the maximum, 6s. They are then remitted to the town's hospital for farther consideration, and to get an additional allowance. 5945. What is the greatest amount of allowance which the town's hospital gave formerly .'' 8s for a single person, and 10s. for a man and his wife ; now 14s , and very seldom 16s., to an infirm old man and his infirm wife, and lOs. to an old infirm man or old infirm woman. 594(>. You mean monthly allowance .-' — Yes. 5947. How long is it since the increase took place ?- — Only since the la.st three months. We began last summer to increase, and we increased again, and tliat is the general maxi- mum we have firrived at. 594tS. What do yt)u give to a widow with four children under ten years of age? — If they are all above one year she is allowed 30s. per quarter ; and if she is nursing she gets 5s. additional. 5949 These are the highest allowances given ?— Yes, and these only since November last ; formerly 2."s., and 5s. additional while nursing. 59.50. Those yo|i first speak to relate to persons entirely destitute ? — Yes, who have relief from no other source. 5951. You have another class to whom you do not give full assistance, but only partly aid? — Yes. 5952. Can you give us any idea of what the general allowance is in each case? — From 7s. to 8s. a month, according to the circumstances of the parties. If they can do a little for themselves we give them a certain allowance, and let them make up the difference by their owp induhtry, POOR LAW COMMISSIOlf INQUIRY FOR SCOTLAND. 341 5953. Do you give allowance to the mothers of illegitimate ct^il^ren ? — None ; this has jixaminations. been wholly rejected hitherto. Glasgow. 5954. Do you take charge of the orphans ? — rYes. 5955. And the children left exposed ?— Yes. 12 ApTu'iius?' 5956. Are they maintained in the house, or boarded out ? — Boarded out principally. 5957. Are the persons with whom they are boarded known to the hospital? — They are not allowed to be boarded with any persons but those who produce a certificate from the minister and elder, as to character, and another from a surgeon, that they are in health. 5958. What is the rate you pay for children ? — For a child nursing under one year old, 3Qs. a quarter ; above one year, and under three, 25s. ; above threp years 2?s. 6d, a quarter. 5959. Do you furnish them with clothing besides.'' — Yes, an(i schooling. 59G0. The children are sent to school ? — Yes, to the nearest school to the person in charge of them. 59t)l. Have you reason to be satisfied with the manner they are cared for? — We have had no complaints, at least very rarely. They are particularly attended to, 59(J2. How are they afterwards provided for ? — When they become ten years of age, the boys are apprenticed to trades ; and servjce is procured fpr the girls. 5963. Is it consistent with your knowledge that they tqro out well? — I can only speak from report. 5964. Persons to whpm you gave relief are parties haying a settlement in Qlasgow ?-^ Yes, Glasgow is only one parish, 5965. Suppose a person found within the parish having no settlement, but in distressed circumstances, is it your practice to give temporary aid ? — Yes. There w£is an instance of this the other day. A person lay sick, and was not more than four mpnths in the parish ; temporary aid was given from the funds of the hospital. 5966. Have you known any cases where a jierson in distressed circumstances when sick was refused temporary aid ? — I do not knovy of any ; there may be cases, but I do not know of them. If they are in destitute circumstances, aid is given to them. I never knew an instance of their being refused aid. 5967. Are you a member of the weekly committee for admitting ?— Yes, 5968. They decide on all claims brought before them 1 — Yes. 5969. Have kirk-sessions the power when a person is disabled or taken ill, of giving temporary aid before the meeting of committee ? — -They give aid whenever they are applied to, when the applicant is found in want. 5970. Were you personally connected with the mode of management in St John's parish ? — No. I had no connexion with the poor of that parish at all. 5971. Can you inform us of the nature of the temporary aid givep in the pases you spoke of, as to amount, — suppose a person found in a fever, with two of three children ?-r- From the kirk-sessions I cannot say : but if there is a family of three or four children we generally give them in that case 3s., 3s. 6d., and 4s. 6d. a week, just according to the number of the family : and in all cases where there has been fever, if a husband, he obtains temporary relief at the hospital to that extent until he is able to work, as well as getting wine, or what the medical people order. 5972. Are you satisfied with the management of the kirk-session ? — I may or may not be, but I cannot avoid it. But I do not think it is a proper system as it is just now. There are two ways ; if the kirk-sessions were to have an unpaid agency, they would require to increase the number in a much greater degree, and to divide the ci,ty into small propor- tions, so that each person, having one proportion, might know the. state of every person in it ; if tli.it is not done, the best way is to have a paid agency, and to take up a list of every person in the city of Glasgow ; and then we would know when a^y person came to apply whether he had a residence or not. 597,3. Do you think the system deficient, as it does npt discover with sufficient accuracy what parties are entitled to relief, and what not?— -It is not discovered just now. 5974. You have only one superir^tendent for the whole of Glasgow '(■ — Just one, and wit;h difficulty we could get that. 5975. And does he act for the kirk-session, as well as for the }iospital? — 'Yes. 5976. Do you think the poor are put to disadvantage from the different forms that they have to go through in claiming relief, before they obtain it? — They are sometimes. If they go about it properly, they get relief before they are sent to the session, or before they go to the hospital. 5977. Then a person cannot fail tp be supplied with immediate relief, unjess ther« be some fault in the person to whom he applies, or that he does npt knpwhpw to go about it? — Just so. 5978. If he knows how to go abqut it, it is the duty pf the elders er deacpns tP give him relief ?-r- Yes. 5979. And he is entitled tp relief, withput regard tp a cl^im pn the parish ? — Yes. WhgQ he applies, the elder must relieve him, whether he has claim against the parish pr not. If he has a claim against the parish, he must have relief. 5980. Have you frequently much difficulty in ascertaining whether they have a settle- ment or not Jr-T-rlt is sometimes very difficult for the superintendent to ferret out whether they have a legal claim or ppt, they are in general so migratory. 5981. Have you turned your attention to the question as to whether the period of settle- ment might be increased vt'ith advantage ? — I have turned my attention to it ; but the view I take of it is this, that if the period is extended, it should be over the whole kingdonj, 342 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Examinations. A. Newall, Emj. 12 April 18.13. The present time for acquiring a settlement is too short ; it should extend to five, six, or seven years. We are inundated by Irishmen coming here to obtain settlements. 5982. Supposing it were impossible to make the alteration in the law throughout the kingdom, woukl you still propose that the period should be altered in Scotland ? — In case it cannot be altered in England and Ireland, I would increase it to five years ; but if over the whole kingdom, I would recommend seven years, 5983. Would you recommend seven years exclusively for Scotland ? — By having five years settlement, it would keep away a great many paupers who come to gain a settlement here ; and it would be an advantageous thing to have seven years, if the law were extended to England and Ireland also. I do not know what the law of settlement is in England. 5984. Do you think it would be an improvement to take in the whole parliamentary districts, and make them as one parish ? — I think it would be an improvement. I give it, however, only as an opinion. 5985. You are not satisfied with the proper management in the city ; would you wish to have another ■? — I find fault with the allowances given to the poor. 5980. Are they inadequate? — Yes; but we are guided by the general body of the directors. .7987. Do you think they are still too low, independently of the late increase ? — In regard to the old and infirm, they are coming to what I proposed in May last ; but the amount to widows and children is too low. I made out a list which I brought before the committee, stating what I would consider to be a fair and adequate means of allowance. 5988. Can you give it us? — Yes. [Mr Newall here gave in a small pamphlet containing extracts from the meetings of the directors of the town's hospital.] What I proposed is contained in that document, but I was defeated by the weekly committee, and also by the directors. The general view I took was that when a woman was nursing she required aid, not being able to work for herself. A widow with a child above three years of age, is not entitled to relief; but the child should be provided for. 5989. What would you propose to give to a widow, who is able to work, with three young children ? — 30s. a quarter, if they are above three years, assuming that she is able to work. If in bad health, she must get temporary aid besides that. 5990. In regard to the great system of management, would you propose any substitute for it ; which mode do you prefer 1 — An unpaid agency if it could be accomplished. We should have the list of every individual in the parish, so that every poor person could be known, and seen where they removed to, backward and forward. This should be done either by a paid or unpaid agency ; and then whenever application is made, by reference to this list, it could be known whether the parties claiming had a residence or not ; and it would be known what sort of character they had. There is another matter which I would suggest, that is to have a workhouse in Glasgow, founded on the principle of what the old correction houses were by law. 5991. What would be the benefit of such an institution ?- up, of which there are plenty in the city, that will not work. They should be committed by the magistrates, and kept there to maintain themselves. They should be kept to hard labour for a certain number of years. 5992. You would have the law sufficiently enforced against begging.'' — Yes. 5993. But if able-bodied persons are not considered as objects of relief, do you think it is fair to punish them for begging when they can get no employment ? — You will find very few of these begging; few able-bodied beg, except the vagrants. I know that there are hundreds of able-bodied men in Glasgow who have no other trade but begging. If these were sent to a workhouse, and made to work, they would turn out better members of society, and be afterwards able to maintain themselves. 5994. But in the case of an able-bodied man out of employment, would you send him to a workhouse for begging, if you did not recognize him as an object of relief? — Yes, I would send him in the meantime ; but that is a case that rarely occurs, 5995. In the case of a woman and children on the parochial list, vi'hen the allowance was inadequate, would it be fair to send her to a workhouse for begging, when she had not enough given for her maintenance? — She should have enough. A great many widows, from inadequate allowance, send their children to beg. -All vagrants would be taken Mr J. Maclaren. Mr John Maclaren, Kirk-Treasurer of the Barony Parish, Examined : — 599G. You are the kirk-ti'casurcr and superintendent of the Barony parish? — Yes. 5997, Do you hold any other situation ? — I am superintendent of the poor, 5998, There is no assessment on the parish ? — Y'es, there is. 5999, Have you any printed statement ? — I have, of last year, [Appended to evidence,] 6000, It seems to be levied on the rent of lands ? — On houses and lands. They take rental as the criterion of means and substance. 6001, Four i)er cent, of the rent ? — Yes, ^ 6002, Is it the full rent, Avithout deduction ? — No, a fourth is deducted on houses and Other buildings. But the real rent is assessed on lands, quarries, and coal mines, 6003, Railroads and canals ? — They are going to assess railroads and canals. 6004, Is there any portion of the small proprietors exempted, if below a certain amount ? — The landlord pays the one-half on property ; tenants below 71. rent do not pay. 6005, Has the amciunt of the assessment been increasing? — Y'es ; we get 5^ per cent, this year. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 343 6006. From August 1842 to August 1843 ?— Yes, 5^ per cent. 6007. Do you know the sum total that it makes ? — No, we can only guess at it. 6008. What is the cause of the increase ? — Increase of poverty. 6009. To what do you attribute that ? — To several causes. A good deal to dulness of trade, and want of employment. We had to increase the aliment a good deal, because tlic poor people could not get employment. A mimber of poor people were supported by their mmilics, when trade was good, who are not able to do so now. 6010. What allowance do you make to the poor? — It is various, accordhig to circum- stances. To a single individual, the highest on the roU is 21s. per month; some at 20s.; a great many at 168.; some at 2s. 6d. We have one case, and one case only, as far as my memory goes, at 2 s. 6011. V\Tiat allowance do you give to widows? — That depends on their families. 6012. Suppose a widow with one child? — She gets no allowance if able-bodied. 6013. A widow with two children, what does she get? — It depends on whether she has friends to help her ; from 4s. to 7s. and Ss. per month. 6014. Do you pay for the education of children ? — Yes. 6015. Is it charged in this state? — Yes, you will see the amount there. 6016. Is the education of all the children attended to more or less? — Yes. We have day- schools in the different quarters of the parish. When a child comes to be six years of age, he is ordered to school. 6017. Is it your duty to attend to that? — Partly ; but It is the duty of every elder and deacon in their own district. It is my duty, again, to see that they do attend, and see that the teachers do justice to them; andin the discharge of tliis duty I have a committee along with me. 6018. How many schools are there in the parish? — I do not know; but I know the number of children we have at school, and the schools which they attend. 6019. How many schools are there in which you have children ? — Nine or ten. 6020. Are any of these parish schools ? — There are four parish schools, but at one of them we have no children. 6021. Do the parish schoolmasters teach any gratis? — ^None for the parish. 6022. Is intemperance increasing among the lower orders of the Barony ? — Yes, I think so. 6023. Has the number of public houses been Increasing or diminishing ? — They are greatly increased since I came to the parish first. I know some streets where there was not a single pubUc house when I came to the parish, but where there are seven or eight now. 6024. Are certificates given by the city magistrates, or county magistrates ? — They are giyen by the justices of the peace of the Barony parish. 6025. How many poor are on the list at present ? — -I could not say exactly ; but I think there are about 1800 at present on the roll : they are altering every month, 6026. How many children have you at school? — You will see the sum paid for them on the list. We pay 10s. a year for each. 6027. Do you know the population of the parish ? — About 110,000, nearly. 6028. Have you much difficulty In collecting the assessment ? — ^I have nothing to do with the collecting of It ; but I believe there Is less difficulty now, since It was i-alsed to 11. There was more difficulty In collecting It, when It was so low as 5Z. 6029. Of whom is the board of management composed ? — The whole of the elders and deacons arc ex officiis members. They choose every year a certain number of heritors to act along with the kirk-session. 6030. What is the number composing the board ? — We have generally from twenty to thirty present. 6031. How often do they meet to receive applications? — Once in the month. Every elder and deacon, and I as treasm'cr, have a power to give In necessitous cases till they meet. 6032. Whose duty is it to inspect the poor on the roll ? — It Is mine. Always one of the deacons or elders goes with me. If convenient for them. In general, one of them goes with me. I visit every new case that comes on once a month ; and the whole I visit once In the year. 6033. Do you think a visit once In the year sufficient for inspection ? — The purpose of the inspection Is to see they are not imposing on us. I think once a year Is in general sufficient. I may mention that every elder and deacon takes charge of their own proportion, Inde2)end- ently of this visitation. 6034. How long have you been inspector of the outdoor poor ? — Since the Ist of Feb- ruary 1832. 6035. Are the allowances given to them. In your opinion, sufficient ? — I think they are little enough In many cases. 6036. Do you allude to any particular class of cases, or generally to the state of allow- ances ? — I should think they are in general too little ; they woidd be the better of more. 6037. Is there much begging within the Barony ? — There is a good deal. It has been suppressed a good deal within this short time. The number of vagrants taken to the poUce office from 8th February to 22d March, 514 Belonging to Ireland, England, East Indies, High Seas, 143 10 1 2 Carryforward, ... 156 Eighty-four of these resided in Barony parish America, Scotland, Brought forward, 156 2 356 514 K^aIniniltiollS. Glasgow. Mr J. Waclaren. 12,\piil 1843. 344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Ki«ininatioiis. G038. Do any of those in the receipt of parochial relief beg? — Some few do. Some of O i.Asoow . those taken to the office were in the receipt of parochial relief. Mr J. Mikclui-eii. 6039. When a person ia destitute, to whom ought he to make application in the first 12 AjH-il im:t, instance? — His elder or deacon. 6040. Are the elders and deacons pretty well known? — Yes; the districts are divided, aod the elders and deacons are so well known that there is no difficidty. 6041. Tiien the elder consults you previously to giving rehef? — If the case is necessitous, lie gives relief immediately ; and if not, he gives the party a printed schedule to answer the .queries, which is sent in to me, and I lay it before the committee. ■6042. Before the ease is decided on, does the pauper come before the board ? — No. 6043. Is relief given to mothers of illegitimate children ? — In some cases. 6044. Is it your general practice to do so ? — Not if they have only one child, and in health ; where there are more than one cliild we are obliged to do it. We liave a good number of illegitimate children teeping. 6045. Do you maintain many or{)hans ? — A good many. I do not know the number just now. 6046. What do you give for orphans ? — Ten shillings a month and clothing, till they are able to go about ; eight shillings afterwards. ^ 6047. Are there district surgeons attached to the districts ?^Yes, to every district of the parish. 6048. Is it their duty to attend any of the poor who send for them ? —They apply to the elder or deacon of the district, and he gives them a printed line ito the doctor, who after- wards visits them. •6049. Have you tiu-ned your attention to the law of settlement ? — Yes. 6050. What is the effect of it ? — I think the settlement is by far too short. 6051. What term would be the best? — I think birth, or ten years residence at the least. ■6052. Do you think any come from otlier places for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? I know that many come for the express purpose from the country, from Ireland, and else- where. 6053. Coilld you name any particular cases ? — I could name particidar cases if I had say book here. Some have themselves confessed to me that they came for that purpose;. ■6054. How many ? — Five or six, I woidd say, have so confessed to me. 6055. Were they Irishmen ? — All but one— one from the highlands— from InverHCss- shire, I think. He is a decent old man, about 66 years of age, — and about 65 years when he applied. 6056. Would he not have been entitled to an allowance -in iiis own pariah ?— No doubt he would, if he had stepped there -, but the allowance there is very smalL 6057. If the allowance were increased in the Barony parish, without there being an increase in the allowance in the country parishes, stiU more would come to the Barony to ^ gain a settlement ? — I have not the least doubt of it. 6058. Do you recollect how long the Inverness man was here before he applied ? — About four years. 6059. There seems to be a considerable increase in the puipbers on your roU aioce last year ? — Yes. 6060. Do you ascribe that to any particular reason? — To the state ef trade, .destvt\ftion, and parents deserting their offspring. 6061. Do you think that the construction of railways contributes to add to the nuuibcr of your poor ? — I 'know they have brought many labourers to this country, who ■\^■ould not otherwise have been here. 6062. I see that the expenditure for the last ten or eleven years has never been so high aa in 1832 ? — No, it was very high then. 6063. What was that owing to ? — To the state of management. An old man was then treasurer and superintendent. 6064. Do you suppose the cases are more sharply looked after now ? — Yes. 6065. And there is, in consequence, not such ap extent of imposition ? — No. 6066. I see that at one time, in the course of -five years, it was brought down from 8000/ to 5400/. ?— Yes. 6067. Was that a good or a bad time of trade ? — It was a good time of irade. 6068. It is increased iOOW. in4iieyeari842 ? — Yes; and I have nodo.i^bt it will increase more this year. 6069. I see a svim charged for law expenses— 638'/. — is tiiat the ustial amount ?— No, that was owing to a plea about some ground that belonged to the Barony parish, but was annexed to the city by act of ])arliament. The heritors lost it, and had to pay the expenses. It is the largest sum for law expenses ever paid. We had 40 li. for law expenses in 1842. 6070. What were the expenses of that particular law-suit about the ground ? — I caauot answer that question, because the whole ivccounts come in to me together. I may mention that I consider the law expenses of last year greater than they are in general, because tliere was ? ri'"'- with the c -al-masters which incurred a good deal of it. 6071. Is i-hea-e much destitution among able-bodied persons ?-»-,- Yes, there is some destitu tion, no doubt of it , but not nearly so mudi as was reported. 6072. Do you insist on all paupev* sending their children to school ? — We do ; and we have great difficulty in getting them to send them. 6073. The 350 children you have at school are all the poor children in the parish able to go to Rcliool ? — Yes, either they themselves or their parents are on the parish roll. A great many in the parish are otherwise provided, by charities and mortifications. POOR LAW IXQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. U5 6074. Is there any regular audit of the accounts ? — Yes, one in the six months. 6075. "VYlio audits the accounts ? — A conunittee of the licritors and kirk-sossion. 6076. Do they decide on the legality of any items, — would they, for instance, stiikc out anything not according to law ? — I never knew them strike out a penny. 6077. Would they have a right to do so? — ^No, the accounts pass the monthly meeting; and they have no power to alter them after that. All that they do is to see that they are correctly entered and balanced. 6078. Are the collector's accounts audited ? — Yes, by a committee of heritors, 6079. Hqw often ? — I believe once a year ; I am certain of once. 6080. Have you any staten^ent to make in regard to deserted children ? — We must ali- ment them. 6081. IVhat would you propose to prevent the desertion of children? — I think more stringent measures should be taken for punishing those who desert their lawful bom chil- dren. 6082. Is it a frequent offence here ? — -Very much so. 6083. Is it increasing? — Yes. 6084. Is it chiefly committed by strangers, or by people belonging to the parish ? — Some of them are people belonging to the parish ; but strangers conie from a distance and desert tlielr children, We have found them, out afterwards. Extiminatiuns. Glasgow. Mr J. Maclai-eii. 12 April 184:i. Barony Parish Rooms, Glasgow, 24:th April 1843. My Lord, &c., — When I had tlie honour of being examined before the above Commis- sion, as superintendent of the poor of the Barony parish, I promised to furnish the Commis^ sion with a pauper's name who acknowledged that he came to reside in the Bai:ony jiarish for the purpose of getting on the poor's roll. I now beg to state for the information of the Commission, that Neil Bruce, residing at No. 137, West Nile Street, back land, one stair up, and left hand door, acknowledged to me, before Mr Hector M'Kenzie, parochial teacher. School Wynd, Anderston, that he and his wife, when both above the age of sixty years, left the Isle of Skye, and came to reside in the Barony parish, with the view of acquirmg a settlement therein.; — I have the honour to be vour lordship's, &c., most obedient servant, JOHN M'LAREN, K.T. The Right Honourable the Lords and others, Commissionera of Inquiry on the Poor Law of Scotland. STATE OF BARONY PARISH POOR'S FE^NDS, from 1st August 1841, to 1st August 1842. COLLECTOR'S ACCOUNT. Dr. To Amount of Assessment, at 4 per Cent., on Rent of Lands, Works, Houses, Collieries, &c., ... ... £7579 19 7 ... Arrears of Assessment 1840, re- covered, ... ... 279 3 11 ... Arrears of Collieries, for do., 32 7 ... Arrears from Messrs Wilson and ■Playfair'g Trustees, as per Account, 535 1 6 ... Arrears for 1838 and 1839, from Sundries, ... Balance due Collector last Settlement, Balance due Collector, 29 1 t, 3 2 6 £8458 15 4 11 6 5 Total, £8463 6 U By Amount deposited in Bank, ... Paid Commission for Surveying and Collecting, Clerk's Salary, Office Rent, Stationery, Stamps, Printing, and sundry minor charges, ... Paid Clerk of the Peace for Warrants, ... Paid Commission for Collecting Arrears, Cr. £7280 337 19 8 Total, E. E. — W. Robeutson, Collector. 17 6 £7043 ... Balance, being Arrears, as per State, 820 6 11 £8403 C U 2 Y 346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Exiuiiinationg. Glasoow. TREASURER'S ACCOUNT. Mr J. Maclaren. )2 April 1843. INCOME. To cash dra\ni from Royal Bank, Proclamations, Collections, Funds of paupers in Royal Lun- atic Asylum, Effects of paupers deceased, and returned aliment, Repayment of advances to other parish paupers, Repayment of fees of admission to Fever Hospital, ... Landlord's half of poor's rates, £7900 6 11 244 19 IOC 14 8 23 8 8 45 14 4 189 19 43 1 10 1 Total, £8555 14 14 Sum deposited per collector, £7280 Balance due Royal Bank this date, including interest, 1289 7 7 enditu re in 1832, was £8078 4 4 Do. 1833, 6529 16 7 Do. 1834, 6006 12 1 Do. 1836, 5715 8 6 Do. 1836, 5443 7 2 Do. 1837, 5764 11 3 Do. 1838, 6033 8 11 Do. 1839, 6034 8 3 Do. 1840, 6131 16 »i Do. 1841, 6175 7 Do. 1842, 7133 18 OJ DISBURSEMENTS. By balance from last account, cash paid poor on roll, Temporary aid to paupers not on roll, Other parish paupers in Barony not on roll. Barony paupers in other parishes. Clothing to pauper children and insane persons, Tuition to pauper children, Proclamations and collections for religious and educational pur- poses, per session. Interest of mortifications, ... Do. of sum in trust for Fairlie's children, Royal Lunatic Asylum for insane paupers, Blind Asylum, Deaf and Dumb Institution, Eye Infirmary, Aliment to pauper prisoners, Surgeons' accounts for attend- ance and medicines, Incidental charges. Rent of Barony parish rooms. Printing and stationery, . . . Law expenses. Petty law do.. Expense of passage for paupers to Ireland, ._ Fever, relief to patients and families, ... Do.,fees of admission to hospital, Infirmary accounts for funerals, Salary to treasurer and superin- tendent. Do. to clerk. Do. to church officer. Coffins accounts. Graves do., Balance in treasurer's hands. £11 5300 2 6 13 6 430 3 6J 39 40 185 175 175 7 8 2 11 6 15 8^ 7 8 18 5i 5 6 4 15 496 7 21 5 14 130 42 24 14 638 5 1 4 11 2 10 18 8J 13 7i 1 1 8 10 10 9 16 6 30 255 12 200 75 10 118 58 7 9 15 12 Total, 16 i 3 H 14 10 £8555 14 ).l E.E.— Glasgow, 2d Aug. 1842. JOHN MACLAUEN, Treasurer. Paupers in Royal Lunatic Asylum, Males, 14 Females, 15 29 A STATEMENT of the Alterations on the Poor's Roll, from 1st August 1841 tUl 1st August 1842 :— SEVERAL DISTRICra On roll August IMl. Additions. Deductions. On roll August 1842. DiiTerenccI at ■3 1 d E 1 1 o E o a s 1 OJ c 1st District, 1st Proportivn, 1st Division — Paupers be- longing to other parishes, and whose aliment is paid back, . . 2d District, 1st Proportion, 3d Division— Paupers be- longing to Barony, who reside in distant parishes, 3d District, Paupers in Calton, .... 4th ... ... in Bridgeton, . Sth ... - ... in Anderston,Finnieston, and Par- tick, .... 6th ... ... in Maryhill, Woodside, Cowcad- dens, Port-Duudas, North Quarter, and Barony Glebe, 7th ... \5ih Proportion, ath Division — Insane, 8th ... 19th ... residing in Glasgow and Gorbals, 9th ... Paupers in ToUcross and Shettleston, 10th ... ... in Camlachie, Parkhead, and West- muir, .... nth . ... in Glen Park, Drygate Toll, and Ladywell Street, 60 19 387 180 237 169 37 81 108 158 30 22 3 i2y 94 89 64 13 42 25 39 7 2 9 5 5 1 2 1 4 46 25 9 4 7 5 2 1 2 5 2 39 22 23 22 1 10 9 11 5 13 2 33 19 24 14 4 13 3 7 1 2 1 54 15 9 5 3 10 1 5 4 64 21 445 248 285 197 49 97 122 176 29 1 1 4 58 61! 47 28 12 16 14 18 1466 .527 25 105 14!» K!3 108 1733 1 268 1 267 Deduct, POOR LAW COADIISSION INQUIRY FOR SCOTLAND. 347 ABSTRACT. New cases put on the roll, Restored cases, ... Transferred to, ... X/6d to them in writing, or otherwise, that the poor person for whom I sougiit work was deservmg, honest, and well disposed, and that it might be safe to give the work. 6148. Was Dr Chalmers zealous in promoting the system ? — Verj'. 6145). Did he not occasionally preach on the subject? — I do not remember particularly. He did riot make it a subject of Sabbath administration. He was at great pains in instruct- ing us in our duties. I was thankful to get Information from him. 6150. During the fourteen years that the system continued after he left Glasgow, had the majority of tliose who worked the system sat imder Dr Chalmers ? — A considerable propor- tion never had. 6151. lA'hiit was the i>roportion, — Do you think the majority of those who worked the system had heard Dr Chalmers preach ? — They may have all hear'd him preach, but only occasionally. He was occasionally in Glasgow after he left it, and came to see his old friends. He did not make it a subject of preaching. 6152. After he had left Glasgow, when he came on a visit he sometimes spoke to you on the management of the poor ? — Undoubtedly ; but he was rather in the way of inquiry — of asking questions. 6153. He showed that he took an interest in the subject ? — Yes, although he felt himself quite imconnected with it. 6154. Was not Dr Chalmers a veiy eloquent preacher ?^ — ^I think so. 6155. ^A^as his preaching not attended by persons from all parts of the town ? — Yes ; I resided, during all his time in Glasgow, in Charlotte Street, which was originally jiart of the Tron parish, where Dr Chalmers was at first. I conceive it of advantage for all agents to live in the parish. I would have felt it an advantage to have lived in my district. The deacons did not, in general, like the idea of going nnich into their districts, because it excited the clamorous feelings of the poor. I found it very different. I found that if I met their apjjlicatious invariably when they came to me, the oftener I was in the district the better. 1 thus knew the people better, and they did not trouble me when it was unnecessary. 6156. Were your colleagues intelligent individuals generally ? — I suppose so. 6157. By whom were they elected? — By Dr Clialmers himself, or j)ei'liaps by members of his session. It was impossible he could know all his large congregation. He was always glad to hear suggestions. I do not know who suggested my name to him. 6158. But is it not likely that the congregation under Dr Chalmers was a congregation of more than the average intelligence ? — I do not know. They were more than the average of the wealthy community ; but I am persuaded, though I adopted his views, that many people continued to be hearers of Dr Chalmers who did not adopt his views. 6159. Was it part of yoiu- duty as a deacon to attend to the education of the young in your district ? — I thought it part of my duty to encoiu-age education. 61 60. And to take means that every child should be sent to school ? — Yes ; I partly paid for the education of some of the children. 6161. Was it the general practice of paupers to send their children to school? — When I spoke of having partly jiaid for the education of some, it was where there was some strong necessity for it — some i-are occasions. 6162. Was it not the usual practice for deacons to take effectual measures that the chil- dren of the poor should be educated ?— The business of the session was to attend to all the orphans and foundling poor on the roU. It was the business of the session rather than that of the deacons, but it was done. Mr Gilchrist. Mr Gilchrist, Governor of the House of Refuge, Glasgow, Examined : — 6163. You are governor of the house of refuge ? — I am. 6164. How long have you been so ? — Nearly three years. 6165. What management is it under? — Under a board of commissioners, appointed by act of parliament in June 1841. 6166. How are the funds supplied ? — Previously to that date they were supplied by voluntary contributions ; since that we have had an assessment of a penny in the pound on rental, beginning with 12/. and upwards. 6167. Is it confined to the royalty, or does it include the suburbs ? — It includes the suburbs. 6108. What description of persons do you receive? — All boys who have gone astray less or more. 6169. What number have you at present in the establishment ? — About ninety, all males. 6170. How are they admitted ? — Most commonly the boys have been brought before the police magistrate ; and if the magistrate and assessor think it a proper case for the house of refuge, they give the boys an option either to take his trial or go to the house of refuge. If he agrees to go, they send him with a printed form, saying he was accused of some crime, and had consented to go to the house of refuge for three years, to learn a trade and be educated. At the first meeting after that, I bring forward the case ; and if the commit- tee approve, the boy is admitted. In the meantime we, in most cases, keep the boy. If our POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 351 funds are restricted, we are sometimes obliged to refuse, although I have found it necessary to take a boy, if close on a meeting. 6171. Is there any limitation of the description of boys as to birth ? Must they all be natives of Glasgow ? — There is no rule on that point. 6172. A stranger boy would be taken as well as a native of Glasgow ! — There are in- stances of that. 6173. Are they in general natives of Glasgow ? — Yes, or of the neighbourhood. 6174. In general have they all been educated before they come to you? — No, scarcely any of them have the least education. To the most of them we have to teach the alphabet. 6175. Have you any limit as to age ? — The rule is, not to admit them above fourteen years of age. We have them as young as eight ; and the period for learning a trade, and getting a competent education, is considered three years. 6176. Are they in general boys who have been the children of paupers, or boys who have been better brought up? — The most of them have been ill brought up. I do not know if their parents were actually on the parish, — some of them have been. The great bulk of them were in a state of abject poverty. Others have been thrown destitute by a second connexion of the parent in the way of marriage. 6177. Have you many boys who suffered any considerable length of imprisonment, — twelve months for instance ? — I do not think we ever had any who ever endured twelve months imprisonment. We have boys who have been very often imprisoned ; if the whole months were summed up, it might come to years. 6178. Are they kept under restraint ? — They are kept within the building. We have a large piece of play-ground ; and they are out from one to two hours a day when the weather is good. 6179. They are not allowed to leave the house ? — No. Some of those who have re- mained their full time, for whom we have not got employment, we allow to go out occa- sionally to see their friends. 6180. Do any attempt to escape ? — No ; none have attempted to escape for a long time. 6181. You can have none now under seventeen years of age? — Very few above that age. 6182. Are they taught trades.' — We have weaving, nail-making, shoe-making, and tailor- ing. Just now we make the clothes for the boys belonging to Hutchison's Hospital. We have made clothes three times for them now. We make the shoes for them also. They get shoes twice a year. 6183. Does it fall within your knowledge to know what efforts have been produced generally by taking vagrant boys off the street .'' — It was apparent to the justiciary courts three years ago that the number of juvenile delinquents brought to their bar was less than formerly. 6184. Was that a remark of one of the judges on the bench ? — Yes. 6185. What number can the house contain ? — About 240. 6186. It does not take in females ? — No. We have a matron, and six female servants in the house. 6187. Have you no female children ? — None. There is another establishment in con- nexion with ours for females. They are considerably apart from each other. 6188. You said that want of funds prevented you from taking in some ? — The sum before the assessment was found totally inadequate ; and even since the assessment we are nearly as ill off as we were. The having the name of assessment shuts the door to private benevolence. 6189. You state that a considerable portion are boys who have not been tried 1 — Some few were not even apprehended by the police ; but all are boj's who require reformation, — their condition, moral and physical, is bad, and that to a great extent, occasioned by des- titution. 6190 You said some of them were the children of people on the poor's roll ? — Yes, some of them. 6191. Is there a considerable variety in the places of the birth ? — We have a good many from Ireland, and I think one or two from England. 6192. Whose parents were living in Glasgow? — Yes. I know of several instances of their having widowed mothers in Glasgow. Both parents of a good many of our inmates are dead. Others who have parents, would be better off without them — they are so bad. 6193. Are they instructed in ciphering, writing and reading 1 — We have a school on the principle of the parish schools in Scotland ; our teacher is one of the elders of the barony parish. We have worship evening and morning. As I am a probationer of the Church of Scotland, I act as chaplain. We have service twice a day on Sabbath, and a Sabbath school in the evening. 6194. In what state of health are they in general ? — There are some whose constitution has been shocked before coming to us. Many used to sleep in stairs, who had no lodgings, perhaps for a year or two. 6195. Is the house well adapted to its object ? — ^Very well. If we were better off in respect of funds, we could extend our classification to a much greater length. As it is we cannot carry it quite so far as we could wish. 6196. Is that as to instruction ? — Suppose a portion of them more vicious than the rest we would keep them by themselves for a certain period, to make it an object of ambition to get into a higher grade of boys, when they become less obstinate in their conduct. 6197. Have you the means of knowing how they have turned out after they have left the house ? — We have not complete means ; but we hear of them frequently, and have got good accounts of them. Lately I had a visit from two of them ; one of them was as well Exaniinfktions. Glasgow. Mr Gilchrist. 12 April 1843. 352 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIiEN BEFORE THE Kxaminations. dressed as any gentleman's son ; and his companion was in the uniform of the 42d regiment. Glasgow. pjg jj^^j j^jg p^^g stitched with a needle in his bonnet j it was giving him leave so many Mr Oiichiist. days. I knew by that that the lad was doing well. 12 April 1843. 6198. Do you teach any of the boys hand loom weaving 1 — We do. 6199. Do you think that is a good trade to teach them, considering the state of the weaving trade ? — The commissioners are not fond of it ; we have reduced the number of them to about eleven or twelve. It fits them, however, for a variety of employments in a place like Glasgow ; a practical kjjowledge of goods being valuable here. Thursday, 13«A April 1843, MEMBERS PRESENT. Jvord Viscount Melville, JHLenry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., Edward Twisleton, Esq^ Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. liORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR, ReT. A. Turner, Rev. Alexander Turner, Minister of the Gorbals Parish, Examined : — 13 April 1843. ^200. You are minister of the Gorbals parish ? — Yes. 6201. How long have you been so ? — This is my tenth year. 6202. Have you had considerable occasion to know tlie state of the poor in your parish ? -^I have had nothing to do with the management of the poor during that period. It is in the hands of a committee of heritors ; and the business is transacted by a body of managers elected by the heritors. 6203. Does your kirk-session take any charge ? — They liave taken no charge of the matter for many years before my induction. 6204. Have you had occasion to visit much ? — I have occasion to visit frequently. 6205. And you know the condition of the poor ? — I can give evidence as to the condition of .the poox. 6206. Does it appear to you that the allowance from the parish funds is sufficient for the maintenance of the poor ?— ^It is not sufficient. 6207. Does that apply to persons on the r^egular roll as well as to those occasionally re- lieved ?— ^Yes. 6208. Did you frequently complain of the inadequacy of the allowance ? — I have heard frequent complaints. 6209. Not being concenaed in tlie immediate management of the poor, you had no access to know the grounds and principles of the amount of relief? — No ; It is generally understood that they have some other sources of maintenance. That must be taken into account by the heritors-; and I infer that from the small allowance given, 6210. Does that apply to those who are wholly impotent and bed-ridden, as well as to others?— To a great extent it does. A greater allowance is made to parties in extreme des- titution ; but still it is inadequate for their support. 6211. Ajre poor people much in the JiaJbit of relieving each other, and doing each other kindly offices ?-^Yes, they do each other kindly offices ; but they are not in circumstances to aid each other with money. 6212. Is there any system adopted in the parish for affording medical relief? — For several years past we have had a dispensary ; but it is supported by voluntary contribution. Then, for a short time, there was a medical gentleman appointed, and jxaid by the parisli, to look after the more destitute cases. I have the impression that this is discontinued, but cannot speak with certainty. 6213. Is the education of the children of the poor attended to ? — My congregation support a school at which we educate 130 children ; the greater number of whom are poor. I do not mean to say that their parents are on the poor's roll. There are among them many orphans ; and the rest of them are the children of such parents as are not in circumstances to be able to give their children education. This school is supported, not by the parish but the congregation ; it is a voluntary school. 6214. Do you consider it inadequate, considering the population of the parish ? — Quite inadequate. K POOE LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 353 6215. Arc there are other schools in the parish? — There is another charity school, en- Examinations. (lowed by a lady deceased twelve years ago, where we educate about sLxty girls. Glasgow. 6216. What bocoraes of the collections at the church doors ? — There has been a law-suit -p . ,„ depending for several years till lately, respecting the collections at the church doors, and the 13 April IB4:<. funds arising from the proclamation of banns. This law--suit is between the Gorbals and Go van. The Gorbals has annexed to it a large portion of Govan. An arrangement has been now entered into, and the ohurcl* door collections are to be expended for the support of the poor of the parish proper — the old parish of Gorbals. 6217. The fimd for the rehef of the poor is raised by assessment?-^ — Yes, chiefly. 6218. Do you observe much intemperance in the parish ? — A great deal. 6219. Has its increase of late years been beyond the increase of the population ?— I can- not speak definitely to this ; but I rather think that it has not. 6220. Do you think the public-houses are too numerous ? — They are greatly too numerous. 6221. Are any steps taken to reduce their number ?^I am not aware of any, 6222. Not being in the immediate administration of the poor laws, perhaps you have not turned your attention much to the legal period of settlement ? — No, it has not come under my observation. 6223. Is there anything in regard to the poor, besides the inadequacy of the allowance, that you would wish to suggest to the Commission, which, in your estimation, would be an improvement in regard to the poor ? — Not at present, farther than this, that I do not think they have adequate means of instruction, and adequate medical relief. 6224. You have no district sin-goons ? — We have had, as I said, a dispensary in the an- nexation, supported by voluntary contribution. 6225. The Gorbals is a parish of recent erection? — It was erected in 1771. 6226. Is there a parish school ? — No parish school. 6227. Are there many bad characters on the parish roll, who would make a bad use of larger allowances if given them ?— J^o doubt, many of them would be apt to make a bad use of the money, 6228. How would you provide against their making a bad use of any additional allowance that might be made to them ? — It is difficult to say, 6229. Supposing relief were given to persons of bad character only in a workliouse, would that not be security against the abuse ? — No doubt it would. 6230. Do you not find that the insignificance of the allowance is subversive of the main- tenance of a spirit of independence amongst the poor, and the elevation of character ? — The allowance to our paupers is so small that it cannot maintain them ; and I take it for granted that they must in many cases beg to eke out a livelihood. 6231. Do not the poor assist each other with provisions, and little aids of a charitable kind ?— I have known many cases whore the poor have shared their pittance with each other, 6232. Would not larger allowances check that ? — It might prevent the necessity of it. 6233. Do you think that their helping each other is productive of a good moral effect, and their saving each other, to a certain extent, from starvation, — does it encourage kindly feel- ings amongst them ? — I cannot say that I would consider that to be the result. 6234. Do not relations assist each other a good deal ; for instance, sons assist their parents ? — Sometimes they do. At the same time 1 find, in very many instances, if they have any reason to believe they are obtaining aid from the parish, that it operates to prevent them taking the same interest in their parents. 6235. Perhaps they would provide more for their relatives if thoy knew that they had n parish allowance at all ? — In some particular instances that would be the case. 6236. Is there much private charity from the rich to the poor in the parish ? — -A good dea'. ()237. Supposing the allowances were larger, might the charity of the rich to the poor be checked ? — if so large as to render assistance unnecessary, it might be checked ; but even tliough the allowance was enlarged, there would be considerable additions requii*ed, leaving ample room for the exercise of charity on the part of the rich. 6238. Supposing that the allowance to the poor were considerably enlarged, is it your opi- nion that the effect of that would be to induce people to become paupers on the roll ? — Suppose it were raised to 5^., 11., or 10/. a year, would it have the effect of inducing persons to come on the poor's roll who now consider it discreditable ? — That point has not presented itself to my mind ; but I believe it might have that effect. 6239. In that case would you contemplate a limit to the increase of an assessment ? — I iiave not thought of that. 6240. AYith the same allowance as at present, If there were sufficient means for the moral education of the people, particularly for the young, -would not that contribute much to their advantage ? — Yes. 6241. Is begging common ? — Very common, even among those receiving allowance, — street-begging Avhere they are permitted ; but they are occasionally pounced on Ijy the ])olice. Pi-ivate begging is very common. I have found the increase so much this last year that I cannot relieve them as I was in the habit of doing. I had to fix one day in each week, and two hours on that day ; and, for the last five or six months, I have relieved, out of my own pocket, with provisions, about twenty persons every Thursday morning. 6242. Do you perceive any objections to that mode of giving relief? — I do not like it by any means ; because few persons are in circumstances to inquire into the case of those apjily- ing for relief. I took a note of those who had applied to me, and made inquiry if the trifle I gave them would be properly used, and made out a list for my own use, to satisfy myself, 6243. Do you pei-ceive any objection to the thing in principle, — to the application of charity in that Avay ?— I do not see any objection to the principle ; but it is not likely that 2 Z m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exnniiiiationsj. Glasoow. R>'v. A. 'lunier. ] 3 April 1«43. people will be in circumstances to make the necessary inquiry ; and, moreover, rtlthougli that were the case, they would be ajit to be imposed upon ; and some individuals might have their names on different lists ; and unless they were people of good character, they would be apt to make an improper use of what was ajipropriated to them. 6244. Does it take much of your time to make inquiry ? — Not much. 6245. It would not occupy nuich of the time of another individual to do the same thing ? — ^Not much. But unless parties really are certain not only that they are persons in desti- tute circumstances, but of good moral character, the charity afforded may be improperly applied. The same individuals, as I have said, may be on two or on many different lists. 6246. IVIight not a larger number be supplied in that way? — I have no doubt it might be the case, if their character is not inquired into. 6247. Have you observed whether the increase of assessment in the (iorbals has had the effect of putting a stop to that kind of charity ? — I do not know that the amoimt of allow- ance has been increased, except for a short period during the winter season. 6248. The increase of assessment was not in consequence of increased sums to individuals, but to increased applications ? — ^Both. 6249. In regard to the Thursday mornings set apart by you for a charitable purpose, your object was to relieve only those belonging to yoiu- own parish ? — Only those. I have frequent applications from others ; but I take care to relieve those parties but once. 6250. Does the knowledge of the small allowance induce people to relieve beggars, and thus promote begging ?— I have no doubt that that may be the case. 6251. Supposing the allowance were larger, and a strict inspection made into every case, and relief given to people of bad character in the workhouse, would there be a limit to the increase of the assessment ? — I think there would be a limit. 6252. Do you think that, under such circumstances, the poor might be better maintained than at present ? — I have not the slightest doubt that they might be better maintained than they are at present in my parish. Allow me to make a statement : the allowances in my parish are very small indeed. I do not think that the heritors are able to make a large allowance. The gi-eater part of the property in the old Gorbals is of a very i^oor kind in- deed, — inhabited chiefly by persons of the poorer classes, — -many of them in such circum- stances tliat they ought to be paupers. The rental is veiy small indeed ; and I do not think the heritors are in such circumstances as to make a liberal allowance. 6253. Would it be of advantage if there were a union between the suburbs and the city? — It has often occurred to me that it would be an advantage to have a imion between the old parish proper, amounting to a population of 10,000, and the annexation,^ — in other words, including the whole barony of Gorbals. It woidd be likely to relieve the wants of the poor very much, if we had a workhouse embracing the old parish and the annexation, as is done in some of the parishes in Edinburgh, — the West Church parish. 6254. Would it be profitable in your parish to dispense with assessments, and maintain the poor by collections at the church doors ?— No. W. Davie, Esq. William Davie, Esq., Town-Clerk, Examined : — 6255. You are one of the town-clerks in Glasgow? — Yes. 6256. How long have you been so? — Up-wards of twenty years. 6257. Your situation has given you considerable means of becoming acquainted with the habits of the lower classes ? — It has. 6258. You were formerly one of the deacons in St John's ? — Yes, 1 took an interest in the parish for some time in that cai)acity during the incumbency of Dr M'Farlan, the successor of Dr Chalmers. 6259. Does it appear to you that the destitution here, independently of the increase of population, has much increased of late years ? — Undoubtedly. 6260. In the discharge of yoiu- duty as town-clerk, have you had occasion to obser^'e per- sons receiving parociiial relief ? — Yes. G261. You have the criminal department? — Yes, the criminal police, sitting with the ma<^istrate in the police court daily ; and in the burgh criminal court. The police court is the one in which I have an opportunity of seeing cases of the description to which you refer. 6262. Have you turned your attention to the administration of the poor laws in Glas- gow, independently of your office as deacon ? — Professionally I have, generally. 6263. Does it appear that enough is done for the poor of the city of (Glasgow, — ^thosewho receive parochial relief? — -No, I think not. 6264. It is not understood that, in administering the parochi;d relief, the allowance given is sufficient for their maintenance, but only in aid of other sources ? — No ; unless in cases of utter destitution. 6265. Have you reason to know whether there is much street-begging amongst those receiving parochial relief? — There is a good deal of street-begging. It has much increased in the course of the last year or so ; but as to the proportions of those receiving parociiial relief I cannot speak. 6266. Have you any concern with the details of the management of the poor ? — None, except as deacon in St John's parish ; and that is a long time ago. 6267. Do you conceive that the habits of the lower classes are more or less disorderly than for spme years back, or otherwise ? — They arc not so good as they were. POOR LAW INQUIRY COiBIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 355 6208. Has crime increased ?— Not of late years. I think, in proportion to the increase of the hibouring population, there is a great deal more of profligacy and wretchedness in the mass of the population than there was ten or twenty years ago. There has not, I think, been an increase of the more serious cases in Glasgow, but there have been of late a good many cases of petty delinquency, in some of which the parties appeared to be impelled by want. 62 G9. Is intemperance on the increase ? — It has greatly increased in the course of the last twenty years. 6270. You are aware, generally, that the number of public houses is very considerable ? — Yes ; they are too numerous. 6271. Are any steps taken to reduce their number? — Some of the magistrates are of opinion that they should Ije reduced : others think that, on the principle of free trade, all who have been certified to be of good character should be licensed. I look on intemperance as the great bane of the bulk of the labouring population. 6272. Is there much fluctuation among the destitute poor ? — Yes, they come from other parts of the country. 6273. Do a large proportion come from Ireland ? — A great many. 6274. From the highlands? — Yes ; but not so many as from Ireland. 6275. Does it come within your duties to know anj'thing about the law of settlement ? — No, except generally. 6276. Have you turned your attention to it? — Yes ; but the court in which I officiate is not called on to decide cases on the law of settlement. 6277. From your general knowledge of the state of the poor, does anything occur to you to suggest which you would consider an improvement in the present system ? — There is a great want of local superintendence, and of a place to which to refer applicants for relief, and where every case would be investigated. 6278. Do you think the means of inspection inadequate? — Very inadequate. 6279. Have you any knowledge, personally, of anything pertaining to the instruction of children or medical relief? — Not now. 6280. Do you know whether the quarter-sessions have granted licenses to persons who were refused by the magistrates ? — Yes. 6281. Does it frequently happen that certificates arc obtained at the quarter-sessions that are refused by the magistrates ? — It sometimes happens. There are not a great many decisions of the magistrates reversed by the quarter-sessions. 6282. But in regard to the effect of the power of appeal, publicans are not restrained by the fear of their licenses not being renewed, because they have the privilege of appeahng to the quarter-sessions ? — Yes ; it may be desirable that there should be such an appeal in small burghs, as a check against local prejudices ; but in large towns it is not expedient. It Is taking the matter out of the hands of the constituted guardians of the community, — and it is an important duty. 6283. Is there a numerous attendance of the county magistrates at the quarter-sessions ? — I have not been at quarter-sessions. 6284. How long were you a deacon in St John's parish ? — ^A few years. 6285. What occasioned you to give it up ? — Other duties. As a member, I thought iti my duty to aid Dr M'Farlan ; but I relinquished It In consequence of other duties, and the removal of my residence to a greater distance from the parish. 6286. Did the same system continue for sometime afterwards ? — ^Yes. 6287. Can you give us any account why it was abandoned ? — No, except the great Increase of the population of the parish. 6288. How much of your time did It take up ? — Not much. 6289. Wliy did you give it up ? — From other avocations and duties. 6290. How many hours in the week did it take to discharge your duty? — Not many hours. I felt it inconvenient to have applications made to me at my pubHc office. The duty I found to be otherwise easily discliarged, and grateful to my feelings. 6291. Woidd you recommend the adoption of It In the wliole of Glasgow ? — Decidedly. 6292. There would be no difficulty, do you think, in getting individuals to discharge the duties efficiently ? — There might be difficidty. If there were a sufficiently minute subdi- vision, it might be easily managed. 6293. Do you think you would get efficient men to discharge the duties ? — I think so. The great obstacle is the overgro^Ti state of our parishes. 6294. You see no difficulty in adopting the system if parishes were sufficiently subdi- vided ? — No. And I would rely on the co-operation of Dissenting congregations. 6295. Would you contemplate abolishing the assessment ? — I would not abolish the assess- ment till the moral apparatus should be In efficient operation. 6296. Supposing the parishes subdivided, and a system introduced analogous to that of St John's, woidd you see any difficulty in carrying on such a system ? — No, If the old system were swept away. 6297. Do you think it might be done in the whole of Glasgow ? — Yes ; but much would depend on the subdivision of parishes, and the Increase of parochial agency. 6298. Could It be done without additional churches ? — We would require a sufficient agency connected with the churches. Churches should be provided, and a movement made among the people Inducing them to go to church. 6299. Andthus bringing a greater number to contribute at the church doors? — Yes, and other- wise — a change that would Induce the poor to take an interest in the poor, and relieve each other. 6300. Did not any other parishes Imitate the example of St John's? — Yes, St George's in particular. Exiiiiiinatious. Glasgow. W. Davie, Ksq. 13 April 1!J4.'!. 356 MINUTES OF EVIDENXE TAI^EN BEFORE TIIE Kxaniiiiatioiis. 6301. Was it generally imitated in Glasgow ? — No. U i.A»»»w . (5302. How was that ? — 1 cannot suy. W l^avie Esq 6308. From tliG observation yoij jnade while you were a deaeon In St John's, did you ja A}niri84^. fininal court, or as deacon in St John's, as illustrative of this ?— Yes ; the spectacle presented to us every day of intemperance being the cause of destitution, hiis been fearftil. 6328. Any on the other side ? — You mean of destitution leading to intemperance, — there may be cases of that descriiition ; and I am aware of cases of delincjucncy arising from des- titution. The condition of the labouring population has become much worse within the last fifteen or twenty years. There has been a graduid sinking in their condition ; they are more stpialid and wretched now in the streets, worse clothed, going without shoes, and with- out any comfortable covering. 6329. Do you see any permanent cure, except moral and religious instruction ? — That is the great remedy. There is a great deal of misery that cannot be overtaken, and will exist, even when the a])paratus is in working order. 6330. Have you access to know wlicther the public houses are kept much open on Sab- bath-day ? — Yes, they are. 6331. Do complaints of this nature come before your court? — Often. 6332. Are means taken to stop it ? — We are very much at a loss to find a sufficient check to this. No person can get license unless he has a certificate from tiic magistrates of the royal burghs or the justices of the peace for counties. The certificate which the party receives from the magistrates contains the condition on which he is to Ciirry on his business, and from I POOR LAAV INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 357 the tei-ms of the certificate great evils arise, particularly in regard to the profanation of the Sabbath ; one of the tenns is, that the parties shall not permit drinking durjpg the hours of divine service, from which the publicans understand that they can carry on business at other hours. They open their j)remises, and cany on business on Sabbath mornings and evenings. The labouring population resort to these places ; and a great ijaany evils result from it, affecting the habits and morals of the labouring classes, 6333. Can you state how many shops are open selling spirits on the Sabbath-day ? — No. 6334. Could it not be ascertained without difficqlty ? — Yes, an amendment of the law is called for. The certificate entitles the party to keep a common inn, alehouse, or victualling house. The legislature, I think, meant that the certificate shoidd apply to these three dif- ferent parties ; but the party that sells spirits gets the same terms of certificate, and he takes the same liberty that the keeper of the inn does. A question arose in Edinburgh a few years ago, — a party was brought before the magistrate for opening his spirit shop, and entertaining persons on Sabbath. He was fined in a small sum. The case was advocated to the suprepie court, and the sentence was reversed. The ternis of the certificate were held to be a virtual repeal of the statute law ; so that the law Is now in an anomalous state. It is an oflTcnce for butchers and bakers to open shop on Sabbath, but not an offence to sell spirits. The anomaly is still more reniarkable when you take the case of a person who is a grocer as well as a spirit-dealer, the groceries being on the one side and the spirits on the other. The shop cannot be opened on the one side for the sale of sugar and tea, but it may be opened on tlie other side for the sale of spirits, before and after the houi-s of divine service. 6335. The evil is, that there is not a proper distinction between a hotel or innkeeper, and the keeper of a public house ? — Yes. The dissipation of Saturday evening is con- tinued on the Sabbath, and even to the beginning of the week, many not retiuiiing to their work tiU Tuesday, 6336. You have observed the number of persons before your court on Monday to be nmch greater than on any other day dm-jng the week ? — That has always been the case. 6337. You stated there should be some place to which destitute persons might be referred, — to what kind of place did you allude ? — I wpuld call it a place where every individual case might be inquired into, and some relief givpn. 6338. What kind of place ? — A house of industry or reflige, — a place where some board might sit and give relief to such parties as had not acquired a legal settlement. If such were the case, there would be no apology for public begging. (5339. Could it be done at the police office ? — It might be done there. I found that I got quit of many applications for relief by referring parties to the police office, telling them to go at a particidar time, assuring them that if they did come, and if I found them deserving of aid, they would get it. I often found that the parties wer^ not forthcoming. 6340. "WTiat woidd be the difference between the house of refuge and ;i workhouse, except in name ? — I do not see any difference. In other large towns there are similar places. Dublin has a house of industry, where people are put to work. 6341. Are thei'e not two large workhojises in Dublin? — :I know of only one, "^vhich I visited a number of years ago ; but there may be t^yo, Kxaininatione. Glasgow. W. Davie, Ksq. 13 April 1H43. Rev. Dr Lei»hman, Minister of Go van Parish, Ej^amlned i^- Dr Leisliman. 6342. You are minister of the parish of Govan ? — Yes. 6343. IIow long have you been so ?— .About twenty years. 6344. How are the poor managed in the parish, — is there a committee appointed for thig pui-pose ? — The parish is divided into two districts ; one of the districts is that part of the parish which is under my own pastoral care. That district, in so far as the poor are concernod, is superintended by myself and the kirk-session, and a committee of heritors. The other district, which includes the whole of what is called the annexation to Gorbals, is en<-irely under the superintendence of a committee of heritors, and members from the different kirk-sessions connected Avlth the different congregations in it, dissenting as well as others. 6345. In regard to the part under your superintendence, is there an assessment ?---There is an sussessment for the poor of the whole parish, including the disti-ict under my superintendence. (5346. Is there a particular portion of assessment set apart for the part of the parish under your superintendence ? — No ; our treasurer applies to the parish collector for what funds he needs, and his drafts are always honoured ; he draws according to the necessities of the case. 6347. How is the committee of heritors appointed ? — At the annual meeting for laying on the assessment. 6348. Has the rate of assessment been increasing ? — Yes, upon the whole, ^ For one or two years lately, I think it may have varied a little. There has been a gradual Increase since I came to the parish. But that is owing partly to the population being increased, 6349. Has the allowance to paupers been increased? — I think it has been more liberal of late. 6350. According to what rule is it levied ? — On the real rental ; one half is paid by the proprietor, the other half by the tenant. 6351. Is nothing levied on means and substance? — Nothing, except in so far as means and substance are ascertained by rent. 358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 6352. Is there any act to authorize that mode of levying it ? — "VVe understand that the Glasgow . Court of .'''cssion gives a discretionary i)0'\vcr ; but there is no exjjress act, as I understand. ])r Leibhiiian 6353. Are tile accounts examined at the annual meeting of the heritors?- — A sub- i:i April i«43. committee is alv.nys a])pointed by the respective committees, for examining and auditing the accounts, along ^^ ith the lists of the poor, and the statement of the expenditure. 6354. Do the members of the kirk-sesslon visit the poor at their own houses, or is any person appointed for that purjjose ? — The session-clerk, Mr Gibson, does so in the district that he is particularly connected with, and the collector of the other districts does the same tiling ; but, besides that, the members of the session and myself visit the 2)oor, with a view to attend to their temporal as well as spiritual concerns. 6355. lias each elder a portion of the parish set apart for his administration? — No. 6356. How do the peo})lc know to whom to apply ?— Mr Gibson, the kirk-treasurer has been long in the parish, and he is personally kno^^■n to all the inhabitants of Govan. They apj)ly to him ; and in Partick they apply through the members of the committee who reside in that village. It contains a population nearly equal in amount to that of Govan. 6357. Do you think the temporal interests of the poor sufficiently provided for? — I think they ai-c as well provided for in my part of the parish, if not better, than they are in any other parish. 6358. Would it be possible to provide for them without assessments ? — If we had a suffi- cient number of chm'ches, and then if these churches had a manageable po[)ulation, it might, I think, be possible. 635!). What is the population under yovu" charge ? — The whole population of the parish is about 50,000 ; but the population of the part of it under my care amounts to about 7000. 6360. Is there medical assistance for the poor ? — Yes, there are district surgeons in dif- ferent parts of the parish. 6361. How are they paid? — They have an allowance of 15/. a year from the session. 6362. They have portions of the parish set apart to each of them ? — Yes. 6363. Are the medicines paid over and above the 15Z. ? — I rather think not ; there does not seem to be anj^ charge for medicines. 6364. Have you any savings-bank in the parish ? — We have a savings-bank in the village of Govan. 6365. How long has it been established ? — About four years. 6366. Do you perceive any beneficial eifects arising from it ? — I understand it has pro- duced good eiFects. I have the honour of being president for this year. The person who has the charge of it is a very active, intelligent man, and his conviction is very strong as to this, that it has produced good effects on the people. 6367. Are the deposits increasing ? — They did increase till the last year. 6368. Do you observe whether it has produced any effects on the liabits of the people, eo far as temperance is concerned ? — I could not say ^^llctller any change that I have observed is to be attributed to it or not ; but I am certain that the natm-al effect of it must be to im- prove the habits of the people ; but I could not point ovit particular cases. 6369. Are you acquainted «ith the condition of the poor iu other parishes in Glasgow? — Kot particularly. 6370. Are you satisfied with the condition of the poor receiving parochial relief in your own palish, or could you suggest any improvement ? — In the village of Govan the poor are very well attended to. There are a number of benevolent families who take a very kind interest in them ; and there is a clothing society established in the village, superintended by ladies, and the labouring poor get clothes from it for half prime cost ; and there are some dona- tions which are expended in winter for purchasing coals and meal to the poor ; and there are some individuals who give allowances from their own pockets to our paupers weekly, in addition to the allowance given by the kirk-session, with this understanding, that the allow- ance to which they are entitled from the parish shall not be diminished. Owing to these and other circumstances, I have reason to think that the poor are very well attended to ; and they are very gi-ateful at the same time. I should be happy if we had it in our power to be a little more liberal in our allowance to them, in consistency with the rule in other j)arishes. 6371. You mean that you are deterred by other parishes from giving a more liberal allow- ance ? — We do not consider ourselves entitled to give above the average of the countiy ; but, at the same time, when a very clamant case comes before us, we have no hesitation in making projier provision for it. We provide a house and nurse to any party who requires such assistance ; but I was referring to the allowance given to the general poor, 6372. Are you satisfied with the provision made for educating the children of the poor in your parish ? — I should say I am not. I should like a more liberal provision for their educa- tion ; not that I have evei', in ])oint of fact, been refused when I have made api)lication for individuals ; but there are a number of poor families in the village that do comjilain that they are not very able to get education for their children, and yet they do not apply to the kirk-session for assistance in the way of education ; and perhaps they might not be willing to take that assistance. I have, in some instances, pressed it on individuals, and they have not accepted it. 6373. Js there only one school in the parish ? — There is a parish school in Govan, besides two subscription schools, and there is a female school of industry ; and in Partick there are four schools. 6374. In point of fact, does it consist with your knowledge that many of the children grow up but imperfectly educated ? — It does. I am sorry to say, partly owing to this cir- cumstance, that a number of them are sent to work in a silk factory, in the neighboiu-liood of Go^an, when very young. Sonic years ago, I communicated with the proprietor of that POOR LAAV INQUIRY C0:MMISSI0N FOR SCOTLAND. 359 factory, and proposed he shoidd not admit any children to his work who were not able to read the New Testament. He agreed to this, and gave instructions to the manager to examine them before admitting tlieni. I was surprised to find after this that children were admitted who had not been taught to read ; and, asking for an explanation, I found that the parents had taught them to repeat by rote a chapter in the New Testament, which the manager had fixetl on as the test of their reading. These children had been taught to take the book in hand, and they seemed to read the chapter. That put an end to the arrangement at that time. The demand for children increased, and I believe, on that account, some ^\ere employed who could not read, or read only imperfectly. 6375. Could you state the proportion of the population in your parish receiving education? — I could not state it from memory. 6376. So far as you know country parishes and other parishes, would you tliinli it infeiior or superior in education to other ])arishes in general ? — As much attention is paid to educa- tion in our parish as in others. 6377. Are any poor children taught gratis by the parish schoolmaster? — Yes, and by other teachers in other parts of the parish. There is a mortification which provides for ten children being educated in the parish school. The parish schoolmaster is besides paid tmt of tlic a^ssessment for tlie education of certain children, and other schoolmasters are paid in the same way. 6378. But does he teach any without being paid at all ? — No, the present schoolmaster is only an assistant, and we consider that we cannot burden him with educating any gratis. 6379. What does the princijial schoolmaster do? — He is an old man, who has retu'ed. The old schoolmaster has got one-half of the salary. 6380. What are the school fees in the parish school? — 2s. 6d. per quarter for reading; and 3s. 6d. for reading, writing, and arithmetic. 6381. Are there any friendly societies in the parish besides the Provident Bank? — There are three in the village of Govan, I think. 6382. How long have they been in existence? — I do not know; but they were in exist- ence before I went to the parish. 6383. Are there any yearly friendly societies ? — Not that I am aware of. Examiimtioiis, Glasgow. Dr Leishman. 13 April 1B43. Rev. Dr Brown, Minister of St John's Parish, Examined : — ll€¥. Br Bi-own. 6384. When were you admitted minister of St John's ? — In 1826. 6385. You are still minister of St John's ? — Yes. 6386. During your ministry in that parish, have you had any opportunities of observing the working of the system, introduced by Dr Chalmers, for the administration of the poor funds ?— Yes. 6387. Do you think it worked efficiently for the comfort and improvement of tlie poor ? — That is my impression. Provided we had not had an unmanageable parish in point or extent, it would have worked well. I may mention that, when the system commenced, there were about 8000 in the jiarish. At the time we gave up the system, there were upwards of 1 3,()(X), and we had the pauperism of all that population to provide for from the receipts of the collections at one church door. 6388. Were complaints made to you by the deacons of the difficulty of managing the sys- ton ? — Never. 6389. And when offices became vacant, had you difficulty in filling them up ? — Occasion- ally I had, till I explained the nature of the duties, and led them to converse with those in office : they then readily acquiesced. 6390. But you never failed in getting individuals willing and qualified to undertake the duty?— No. 6391- Did they complain of the difficulty of performing the duty? — Never, after they were fairly inducted into it. 6392. Did they express to you the facility they found in the discharge of their duty ? — Yes, frequently, and the pleasure it affiDrded them. 6393. What do you regard as the principle on which they proceeded ? — First, they were vigilant in regard to the period of residence ; and, secondly, they were at pains to discover whether the person applying had any i-elatives who were legally bound to give them sup- port, and they inquired into the general habits and circumstances of the applicant. 6394. AVhat way did they principally promote the comfort and wcllbcing of all poor per- sons in the parish ? — I conceive they promoted it in difi^ei'ent ways. First, the proportion given, was equal in St John's to what was given in other parishes. But it was also nuich to the comfort of the poor to see a set of men coming amongst them that took a deep interest in them, and not merely putting their hands in their pockets and giving them a little, but although they did not give them money, taking an interest in theii" families, and able often to get the parents work. 6395. In point of fiict, were any complaints ever made of the conduct of the deacons in tJie administration of the fiuid ? — Never to me. 6396. Were there ever expressions of gratitude received from the attentions showed them ? — Yes, I have received several expressions of gratitude. Where the individuals were well disposed, they felt grateful for what was done for them. 6397. Have you reason to believe that the system worked well for the general habits of 360 ^HNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFORE TIIE KxaHiiii!ki!on<>. the parlsli ? — It wa8 a moral surveillance which the deacons exercised ; and it had a bcuefi- (ii.Asdow. cial effect, independently altogether of the means of subsistence. Kev. Dr Bi-ovrn 6398. There are schools establislied in the parish ? — Yes. la Ai>ril 1843. 6399. What is the amount of the school fees? — 28. per quarter for English reading; and 38. for reading, writing, and arithmetic. 6400. Do you know the number attending these schools? — I could not state the number at this present moment; but I should think, in the English department, in M'Farlane Street, there are 130 day scholars; and in the commercial department, about seventy, as many as the school-house can accommodate. In Annfield we have laboured under difficulty in regard to the teacher. There has been a change of teachers, and we did not perliaps succeed in getting the best ; but the present teacher is very efficient, and has about ninety scholars during the day. There are evening classes. There are altogether from sixty to eighty, for which the kirk-session pay. Two of the teachers undertook, for 201. a-year, to open schools in the evening, from 8 to 9 o'clock, to receive all children who might choose to attend, to the amount of 100 or so. At one of these schools there are 130 in the evening class, and at the other 90, educated gratuitously. 0401. These schools are upheld by subscription ? — 'They are upheld by the collections. 6402. Under whose management are they? — Under the management of the trustees and the minister and a representative elder for the time being. 6403. From what funds are the salaries of the teachers paid ?• — There was one of the schools endowed by accumulated collections during Dr Chalmers' time. 500/, were accu- midated and sunk. That endowed one school, which gave a salary of 25/. to the teacher. For the second school we receive about as much from the general session as pays the schoolmaster's salary of 25/. For the third school we received Dr Bell's donation, and it is taught on Dr Bell's system ; the salary is 25/. to the teacher. The fourth school is taught on Bell's system also, and the salary partly arises from a portion of Bell's fimd not exhausted, and something that is got from the educational committee in Edmburgh. 6404. Does it consist with your knowledge that the number of children has increased considerably since these schools were instituted ? — Yes. 6405. Have these schools had the effect of putting down the adventm-e schools ? — No, there are several adventiu^e schools, but not so many in proportion to the population as in other parishes. 6406. Have they had the effect of extinguishing any of the adventure schools from the lowness of the fees ?^I am not aware that they have. 6407. How long is it since you returned to the practice of receiving from the town's Hospital? — Since September 1837. The St John's system commenced in 1819, and we pursued it till the year 1837, 6408. What were the circumstances that led to the giving up of the system pursued for that number of years? — Fii-st, the population increased to a great extent, 5000 more than it was originally Avhen the system was set agoing ; next, we were not freed from assess- ment in the parish of St John's, notA^ithstanding all the efforts we made in behalf of the poor ; next the collections made at St Thomas', which, for a time, went for the support of the poor were withdrawn altogether ; and then, we saw no parishes following our example. Then there was a class of paupers tliat ought not to have been taken on the list of ordinary j)aupers — lunatics and deserted children — whi(;h bore exceedingly hard upon the funds. When I was in the country we had no assessment, and we supported the poor comfortably ; but we never thought of supporting lunatics from the collections. 6409. Do you think, in ftd. 1-T1I1 1 Kev. \>v nlack. increase the allowance tor the tune, that comtorts may be provided, i know cases where u Apiil 1843. this is done. 6655. Is it consistent with your knowledge that many of the poor are improvident in their habits, and intemperate ? — One-half of the paupers on the roll are improvident and worth- less, and have brought poverty on themselves by their own misconduct. I can say of others> that they are very decent, and 5s. with them, will go as far as 15s. with the other class. 6656. Would it be of use to raise the allowance to improvident persons ? — No : provident persons would turn it to a good account, but to the other class it woidd just give further means of intemperance. Hence, in several cases when we do increase the allowance, it is often in the way of allowing them meal or bread, and gi'ving to the shopkeepers the power of supplying it to the children, if they think it necessary, lest their mothers should sell it for spirits. 6657. Would it be of consequence to have a workhouse? — It woidd be of great conse- quence, indeed, to many of the paupers. 6658. Would you apply it to the AveU-behaved paupers ? — More to the well-behaved. 6659. AVhat sort of workhouse would you propose ?— Such as is described by Mr Dunlop. I shall send to the Commission the paper written by him. I went along with him in every thing that was done. The workhouse proposed by him is of this nature — a house where people could come to work in the morning, remaining there the wliole day at work, and retiring to breakfast and dinner, — a house where they could be provided with work at once in the morning, and thus save them from the necessity of standing for hours together at warehouse doors, and fi-equently sent away without work. 6660. Before we come to that matter, would it be of consequence to persons in destitution, in your parish, to have a workhouse in which they could reside constantly? — I do not think so. 6661. But in regard to the worthless class, Avould it not be of advantage to have a work- house ? — I do not think it Avoidd. I could not recommend it from my own observation as to the bad effects of workhouses. 6662. The workhouse Avhich you would recommend, Avould be for persons not in absolute poverty, where they would receive regular Avork, and thus be prevented from falling into absolute fwverty? — Yes. 6663. Should it be supported by assessment or voluntary contribution ? — Hitherto it haa been thought that it should be supported by voluntary contribution. 6664. What is your oAvn opinion ? — I have changed my mind a little. We have of late found the annual subscriptions utterly inadequate. I do fear that, in the present circum- stances of Glasgow, something must be done in the Avay of compulsory assessment. 6665. This may arise from the depressed state of trade ? — Yes. 6666. AVhat is your experience in ordinary times ? — My experience is, that in ordinary times Ave could go to any length Avithout assessment, for such an house. 6667. You alluded to the bad effects Avhich, from your observation, workhouses produced, and which have impressed you with an unfavourable idea of ordinary workhouses — will you have the goodness to state Avhat those bad effects are ? — Unless I am very much pressed, I would decline stating this. 6668. We do not wish you to speak particularly, but generally ? — ^I could not state much from my OAvn personal observation, in regard to hospitals, but, from the little observation I have made, I do not think it is desirable to have such institutions. 6669. What do you think the evUs in the management are ? — If that question requires to be ansAvered, I Avould rather give it in writing. 6670. Very well, Ave shall be glad to have it answered in writing. You are acquainted with various of the working classes in the parish ? — Yes. 6671. Have they been In distress of late years ? — ^Yes. 6672. Has their condition been generally improving, or falling off, for some years past ? — Falling off. 6673. To what do you attribute this ? — To the depressed state of trade. Mechanics, moulders, engineers, weavers particularly, have been in a very distressed state ; and of late, very much so, engineers and moidders. 6674. Do you attribute that to any change in the habits of the people, or to depression in trade ? — To depression in trade. Their habits are improving. 6675. AYould it be advisable to give a legal claim of relief to able-bodied persons, when out of employment ? — I would not be inclined to do so. 6676. Suppose a Avorkhouse in Avhich to give them relief, Avhere they would be put to dis- agreeable labour, Avould it be safe to give them labour in this Avay ? — In many cases it might be desirable, and I daresay it Avould turn out Avell. We are employing many in the barony parish at 9d. a day ; many do not like it, and go aAvay and find Avork for themselves. 6677. AVhat sort of work have you been giving them ? — Mostly levelling, and breaking stones, particularly the former, AA-here the mattock and AvheelbarroAv are employed. Out of 160 that have aj^plied to us, Ave found employment for eighty, and these dAvindled doAvn to sixty. 6678. Therefore you consider, that if relief Avere given to able-bodied men, it would be necessary to have a workhouse, or some other test to prevent imposition on the community ? — By all means to have a test. I shall send in a paper stating the numbers we had employed. I can furnish it for two years. [To be given in.] 372 MINUTES OF p:\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaininations. 6679. Then the effect of such a test would be, that able-bodied men, when out of eniploy- Oi.Asoow. ment, would have no relief, except when driven to such destitution as to induce them to Uev ]>!■ Black, accept of disagreeable labour ? — I would not like to use the word disagreeable, but labour to )4 April 11:4:1. which they wpuld not betake themselves, if they coidd get better. 6680. What is the population of the parish ? — A hundred and ten thousand, in round uuinbei^, 6681. How many elders and deacons are there J^Upwards of a hundred elders, and dea- (tons, and heritors— feuars who are actively engaged in managing the affairs of the poor. We find the heritors, feuars, the best, because they are best acquainted with the people. 6682. Do you find that an efficient establishment for inspecting the poor, and attending to their claims ? — I have foimd, in several instances, a defalcation in that respect. I dare not speak for every district ; some are more active than others. The inspection would be greatly improved, if I had a manageable parish. If the parish were manageable, I think the systen) woiild work admirably. 6683. Woidd you prefef paid inspectors? — Assuredly; twelve years have cpmbiced roe of the necessity of paid inspectors. 6684. Do you think that under such management the moral feelings of the people are likely to be more raised, as well as their comfort more attended to ? — I tliink so, and to a great extent. 6685. What amount of population would you consider a manageable parish under that system ? — :I would not grudge 3000 to each miijister. I know it is considered a thousand too many. W^hen the parish of St Luke's was erected, the expenditure was lessened by 1001. a year. 6686. Who was the clergymsin ? — Mr Fowler now in Ratho, 6687. Were the wants of the poor better supplied ? — Yes, they were by every one acknowledged to be better supplied, Many acknowledged that the rents were better paid than they had been before. A vast deal of good was done by erecting that into other parishes. In a temporal and spiritual point of view their wants were well attmulcd to. 6688. Is there any provision for the education of the children of the poor on the roll ? — Every elder, deacon, and heritor, are allowed to send all pauper children to a school till once they can read and write. 6689. Do you take the charge of getting them out to the world afterwards ?— Yes, of getting them bound as apprentices, 6690. What is the state of education within your parish ? — ;In some districts it is lamentable. 6691. Do you think it woidd tend much to raise the moral feelings of the lower orders, if more attention were paid to the education of the children ? — ^Vcry much. 6692. Including in that education, both moral and general education ? — Yes. 6693. Is it from want of fimds that education is neglected ? — Partly from want of funds, and partly from indisposition on the part of the parents. We are often obliged to threaten them. We sometimes make a bargain with parents, — we say we will pay for two children, if you wiM pay for one ; and if the one is not kept at school, we threaten to send away the other two. I am here talking of persons not on the poor roll. 6694. W^ho are the heritors ? — They comprehend ajl thp fevars. They are a very nume- rous body in the parish. 6695. Do they all pay poor rates as heritors ? — Yes. 6696. By the real rent ?— Yes. 6697. Is there no exemption when you come to alow amount? — We exempt all tenants under 11. ; and frequently when an appeal is made, we exempt others. If any change were to take place in the assessment, I would recommend that farmers should not be assessed so high, and even some heritors. I know a class of heritors in Calton, Anderston, and Bridgeton, who managed to bqy a little property when trade was good. They are now old men, and are unable to do much. They have perhaps 30Z. annual-rent for their property, and it may not be in a good state of repair. Their tenants sometimes do not pay the rent ; and after deducting their losses, and accounting fof Repairs, they may not have above 151. a year to live on. Any tax on such men must be regarded as a very hpavy burden, They are men who pan very ill afford it. 6698. Have ypu any assessment on means and substance in your parish ? — Yes ; but it is a fiction in law. We were recommended to have a half on means and substance, and a half on rental. Wo turn round, and ascertain means and substance by the rent paid. All is indicated by the rental ; but in the books we take it down in the other way, to save oiu*- selves from law processes, 6699. Would it make the assessment fall more equally on the public If it were on means and substance ? — I have an idea of a sliding scale rather than any other. My only objec- tion to means and substance is the invidious mode of ascertaining it. It was on this account it was obliged to be given up in the city. 6700. What is the rate of allowance to paupers \n the barony parish ? — That varies ac- cording to circumstances. 6701. Take the case of a pauper who has no other means pf subsistence ?: — ^We do not know a case where there is no other means of subsiiitence, 6702. Supposing ar old man above sixty years, past working, what allowance a week would you give to him ? — I have seen as high hs los., a month given to such a person. ()703. Are there many cases of tiiat kind ? — A good many. 6704, IIqw miich to an old \^oman ? — Much about the same. 6705. To a widovy w^h foiir children under ten veais ? — Tjiftt would vary according to rOOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 373 the means she might have of herself. Every case is minutely examined, and disposed of once a month. I have seen 28. a month given, and as high as 32s. a month given to a family. 070(5. Do you know whether these rates are higher or lower than those in neighbouring jmrishcs ? — ( )ur allowance to the poor is amongst the highest in Scotland, with the exception of the Abbey parish of Paisley. 0707. How often do deacons visit paupers on the roll ? — As often as they are required. 0708. IIow often in the year ? — They must see them every month, because the paupers must come for payment, or the deacon must go with the payment, to an invalid, for instimce. Once a month every pauper nuist be seen. Before they are taken on the roll, they are seen at their own houses ; but perhaps not in their own houses for months after- wards. They are, however, seen at their own houses every twelve months at any rate. 6709. Do you think the visitation at their own houses once a year sufficient ?— I think 60, in connexion with other visits that may be paid them, 6710. But is the average visit of once a year sufficient ? — It is difficult to speak of an average in regard to our parish, because every individual case is promptly attended to, either by the overseer, deacon, or elder. We think once a year sufficient ; because in those ca.se8 where we judge it necessary to visit more than once a year, we have them put down in the elder's book — in this way, that such and such a case must be visited in four months, or in six months. 6711. But you say the average is once a year? — I do not like the word average. 6712. In regard to those workliouses which you proposed, to which able-bodied persons were to go and work,— rwill you explain the particidar class of individuals that would require to go there ?— That has not much come under my observation. I have considered the working of the workhouses in England. 6713. Are you aware tliat the paupers are taken in, and stay there altogether? — I imder- stood that was altered. 0714. Areyou aware that they sleep there? — ^Yes. It was not intended that paupers should sleep in the house proposed by Mr Dunlop. I would rather call it a house of indus- try, — that is the kind of house we have proposed. 6715. You say you approve of Mr Dunlop's plan of able-bodied persons going to work there during the day, and returning home at night ? — Yes, the industrious poor. 0716. That is to say for persons who in ordinary circumstances would be in pmployment ? — Yes. 6717. And when out of employmenf, you woidd give them employment in this establish- ment ?^-Yes. 6718. Would it not impair the provident habits of that class ?— -The reverse we tliink. It is not intended as a house for idle people. 6719. If provident persons knew tlyit tliey could get employment at this establishment, would not that have a tendency to imjiair their habits of provjdence ? — Yes ; but we do npt intend such a house for people who are not desirous to work. A class of women, for instance, stand at warehouse doors from four to eight o'clock in the morning for work, and when they get it, they cannot make by it more than 3d. or 4d. a day. The house pf industry would give employment to such jieople. 0720. Do you propose it only for women ? — -At first only fpr women. 0721. Would not thsit tend to impair the industrious habits of industrious women? — It might. 0722. IIow would you pay them, — by tlie day or piece ? — I think more frequently by the piece. 6723. If the wages they piade in the house pf industry were higher than they could make in any other way, would not that have the effect of impairing then* industrious habifs ? — -I do not think so. 6724. Suppose they had six months' certajn work, and six mqntbs' unpertain, woidd not persons be less provident during the six months they had work, when they knew that they Goijld obtain work the other six njonths at such an establighment ? — Yes. 6725. And it would affect their provident liablts in that vfay, whether t-hey were paid by the piece or not ? — Certainly. 0726. Do you think that such an establishment would support its own expense ? — I should think so. 0727. Are you aware whether that agrees with the experience of the Enghsh work- houses ? — I am not. 6728. Are you aware that this has been tried in diffei'ent parts pf the Continent, and has failed ? — I am not aware in regard to the Continent. 6729. In regard to the English workhouses as a test for able persons, are you aware that the test does riot consist so rriuch in labour as in restraint, and, therefore, the proposition of giving relief In an establishment such as you propose, woidd not agree with the test In English workhouses ?■ — ^We are not thinking of the same class of people. I fear we have been confounding the industrious poor very much with able-bodied men who are out of employment, for whom I would propose a test, a number of them being worthless and Idle. 6730. You would have regard to character ? — Yes. 6731. You would only give relief to persons of good character? — ^We would make it a test for all. 6732. The only point you would look at In individuals to whom you would give relief, woidd be destitution ? — Unquestionably. 6733. Are you aware that the only point looked at in the English workhouses is destitur Jion ? — I ^ni not aware, Exaniinations. Ol.ASGOW. Rev. Dr. Black. 14 April 1843. 374 anxuTES OF evidence taken befoke the £vauiii'.ations. Glasgow. Ui-y. Dr Black. 14 April 1843. G734. Do cldcrsi and deacons in the Barony parish make reports yearly of the condition of education in their respective districts ? — There are visitations of schools ; but reports have not l>een given in so regidarly as we intend to have hereafter. G?;'*;"). But do deacons report the number of children capable of receiving education, stat- ing whetiier they are at school or at home with their parents ? — No reports have been given in. (;7o6. In regard to the assessment pressing on small proprietors, have you found the effect of bringing down the assessment to a lower class to be, to weaken the kindly feelings of the poor towaixls their relatives ? — Not to weaken them. It used to be so low as 5/. I pro- posed several years ago that it should be raised to 7/., in consequence of prosecutions. 6737. Have you found small tenants and proprietors, in consequence of being taxed, dis- posed to think, when any of their jjoor relatives applied to them for aid, that as they pay the assessment they ought not to be called on to assist them ? — I am sure I have not met with five cases of this sort ; but I am aware that such a report exists out of doors. 6738. You said you approved of workhouses as a test, — would you, taking workhouses as a whole, prefer that test to any other ? — I do not know of any other test that could be applied. 6739. When you speak of your objections to workhouses, you speak of workhouses for the aged and infirm ? — Yes, not for the able-bodied. 6740. What you stated in regard to workhouses for the aged and infirm, arises from the workhouse in this town rather than in England ? — Yes. 6741. Are you jjcrsonally acquainted with the working of the English workhouses ? — No ; my acquaintance with them arises from newspaper reports, and reports published by themselves. 6742. Your parish is divided into quoad sacra parishes, with sessions attached to them ? — Yes, for merely spiritual purposes ; but from some of the ciders we get valuable aid. There are seventeen in the parish ; fifteen of them have kirk-sgssions ; and there are two Gaelic churches that have no quoad sacra jjarishes attached. 6343. Woidd it be advisable that each of these j)arishes shoiUd have charge of the poor within their own bounds ? — I would rather have a general court ; the uniform system tends, on the whole, to advantage. 6744. It proceeds on the supposition of the Barony being one parish ? — Yes, quoad civilia. 6745. Is the house of refuge a\ ithin your parish ? — Both houses of refuge are within the parish. 6746. Do they receive persons from the Barony and the city indiscriminately ? — Yes. 6747. Is the assessment for support of those houses of refuge laid on both the Barony and the city ? — Yes. 6748. Have you looked to the working of the system in the two houses of refuge ? — ^Par- ticiUarly into the female house. 6749. What is your opinion of the institution ?— The period has been so short since it commenced, that it is difficult to say ; but at present it augurs very well indeed. I would refer on the subject to Mr Playfair and Mr Bi-yce, who can give valuable information. 6750. Is it a part of the duty of the elders and deacons to endeavour to provide work for those on the poor's roll ? — It is part of their duty, and in many cases it is done, though not to the extent I could desire. One particidar object is to put them on their own resources. 6751. Suj)posing the parish subdivided, and the collections at the different church doors to be divided, for the supply of the wants of the poor, could an assessment be dLspensed with in some of the districts ? — It would not do with the suburbs ; but in rural districts it might answer well to do away Avith assessments ; and I think this might be done with great pro- priety. 6752. Have you it in your power to state the number of the poor and the amount of the allowance given to them in the different quoad sacra parishes to which you haA"e alluded ? — They are so much on a footing of equality that I do not know of any difference. 6753. What is the total amount of money expended on each of these parishes amongst the poor ? — We do not attend to the division of parishes. I could funiish what has been given, and even as to the present amount of each parish. [To be furnished.] Jas. Scott, Esq. James Scatty Esq., Manufactiu'er, Glasgow, Examined :- 6754. You took charge of the committee for the relief of the unemj^loycd poor? — Yes. • 6755. During what perio!• ■Willis, comforts to them. I was employed last week in doing so ; but it is a very unfair thing 14 ApHl iit43. that the members of voluntary churches, people upon principle, congregating for the wor- ship of God, should be responsible in providing for the first wants of all even within their own pale. Any alms that may be spared from the private funds of individuals, will find plenty of scope in supplementing the means afforded by the state. That Christian societies are to be absolutely responsible for redeeming clothes, and paying rents of persons falling back, I hold to be an unreasonable thing ; but if we do not do it, these parties are left to great wretchedness. Besides, great poverty and misery are entailed by the present system, and great suffering of the destitute before redress is given, I mean both in the case of unem- ployed labourers, and even among the proper poor, that delays in obtaining relief occasion very great distress. One case I may mention, which was most distressing: — A family came from the country. The head of it died. I happened to come on the family in the course of visiting my congregation. Anotlier death or two took place in the house. The poor widow was reduced to great embarrassment. She corresponded, or got some one to assist her in corresponding, vnth the clergyman of the country parish from which she had come. I happened to be calling from time to time. I asked what had been done as the result of her claim, and was told, she never received any answer. I do not speak of the reasons ; but 1 state this as a proof of the difficulty and the inaccessibleness of the pro- vision that the law has given ; and the difficulty of getting it, and the misery produced by this state of things. 6871. Is there much begging in the parish ? — I cannot say particularly in my own parish, but through all the city it is most melancholy, and this is the case even at my own door. The extent of mendicity is most intolerable, not simply as regards the unemployed labourers, but the mendicity of vagrants and young persons. I might employ a separate servant for the sole purpose of opening my door to beggars. I must say, however, in justice to the police, that my house is without their range. But yet I am annoyed every day in going about the town. I would take the liberty of suggesting another thing: — There is a very great obstacle opposed to voluntary beneficence by the present system. Everybody knows that in the parishes of Scotland, people make up their minds to give very little at the church doors, because of the supply of the poor being so much in the hands of the session and heritors ; and it may be, the assessment being so slow in forthcoming, that the care of the poor falls very much on the church-going people, to the exemption of abso- lute absentees. 6872. Should it not be considered as a christian privilege to extend their charity ? — Yes ; and they consider it as an unfair thing, not to be allowed to do it as they ought in the des- tination of the alms of the church. If I am to be indulged in the luxury of giving to the poor, I should have a special pleasiu'e in knowing that I am givhig to every brother and sister of the church. There is such a confusion of funds just now, as well as such a con- fusion of agency, that it renders the syj^tem oluioxious. There should be a common fund open for those whom the scriptures call the saints, the poor of Christ's church. There is more scope for the influence of good feeling when the peoi)le understand that there is pro- ;. vision for the first and general mass of pauperism, and that there is scope enough for coming forward with ecclesiastical charity as supplemental. A most disproportionate burden falls ■ ' on private societies ; and although they have much pleasure in the administration of charity, the question is, What is the equable thing ? A man may give to twenty beggars on the street ; but should it be left to him to do so ? Were it not for this, a great many of the poor would be almost all neglected. 1 consider it as one of the great faults of the present system that ©ne class of society, to the saving of many who are better able than themselves, are bearing the burden, when the law imposes the burden only to a limited extent upon many of the ablest classes. In a national provision equity demands, whatever scope may be left for private charity, that up to the extent of providing against want, every class should bear its proportion. 687S. Do you mean that each parish is not to support its own poor? — As far as possible that may be desirable, but I should wish that some more general and united arrangement might be necessary. I prefer a national assessment. 6874. Would you give relief to able-bodied persons ? — Certainly. 6875. How would you pi-ovide against abuse ? — I have visited workhouses in England, and I saw much that delighted my eye. The great evil is the separation of families. They are reducing that drawback in liingland, — they are greatly mitigating that evil. But it is known that in Ireland and in Scotland, families are broken up from the poverty of their circumstances. Many of the Irish are obliged to leave their houses and families, and come over here to get employment. The door is locked in harvest, and the wife and children are turned out to the highway till the husband comes back. Every body knows here the conse- quence of the head of a family being absent weeks and months seeking employment. There BMist be some check against imposture ; some test of real destitution. I am not prepared to say how far the English system should be adopted ; but I am anxious that the principle should be adojited, as protecting every ])erson against total want. But in Scotland we do not do so. I must say that when I speak of it as a national thing, I look to the highest ©f all grounds, — I do consider that in our country at present, besides all objections in the light of expediency against the working of the system, we are actually neglecting the poor to the damage of the state, as well as the church ; and to our great national guilt. We have scripture precedent for a compulsory provision for the poor : among the Jews, by God's authority, there was a compulsory provision for the poor. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMillSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 383 6876. If the poor would be better off without a provision, would it be right to have a Examinations, provision ? — I should think that can never be wanted. All my previous arguments go of Glasgow. course to that side of this question. Some may say it would cause extravagance and intem- rct Dr Willis perance ; but I speak for the prevention of utter want ; and there would be scope besides 14 Ap,.;! ujj;}.' for religious functionaries doing their part in adding to the comfort of the poor. 6877. What should be the fair allowance to an old man past work? — I have not turned my attention to that subject. I should suppose, at least, that it should be as much in a week as the law allows him in a month. I suppose, at least, that a poor old man should have something near Is. a day, if rental and sustenance are to be reached. 6878. What should it be to an old man and woman ? — Why, there being two, it might be made more. 6879. Would you double the allowance? — No. 6880. Half as much again ? — Perhaps so. 6881. What would you propose to a widow with four children under ten years of age ? — ■ The case of Ceres the other day decides something as to that. I should suppose that if we are to allow what will pay a small rent, I cannot see how, in such a case, she should have less than 7 s. or 8s. a week. 6882. Do you refer to the Barony parish as well as the city of Glasgow, in speaking of inadequacy ? — Yes. 6883. What is the scale of allowance that is offered to an old man past sixty years of age .'' — I have not a return from the Barony ; but I suppose he is not allowed above 6s. or 8s., or 10s., a month. I know a woman quite unable to work, who has been, to my know- ledge, in poverty for twelve or thirteen years. During that period she has been utterly un- able to earn a penny. She is lame, and needs crutches. Up to a recent date the allowance to that woman — a decent person in character — ^bed-rid for the most part, was no more than 2s. a week. That was the entire sum allowed for her rent, and everything else. Within the last year her allowance has been augmented to 12s. a month. 6884. You would double the amount ? — I should say it would require to be doubled. But the Barony parish would say in that case, " we will rather take her, and board her cheaply somewhere.'' W^ere this to be the case, the woman would be deprived of her little dwelling, where she is visited occasionally by those who take an interest in her. That woman's spirit has been many times just at the lowest ebbing point ; and once and again she might have died, if she had not been seen to by charitable persons. I knew her to have been in utter want once and again. One individual expressed to me what uphill work he found it to be to procui-e some thing more for her than the parish allowed her. He tried to get up an additional 8s. a month for her, and he found this to be extremely difficult, and he told me that he was out of pocket ; though on his exertions for years, the full half of her support was dependent. 6885. Have you visited English paupers who were in receipt of outdoor relief? — No. 6886. What would be the expense to Scotland if the increase of allowance were given at the rate you propose to old men — 6s. a week ? — I forget the sum Dr Alison supposes ; but I think that in many cases the sum legally allov.'cd would require to be triple what it is. 6887. Supposing, on a calculation of the expense, it were found to be 800,000^. a year — as is estimated by Dr Alison, would you object to that sum being raised ? — I am not pre- pared to say I would. 6888. Would 800,000/. a year be the maximum that you would consider expedient to be laid out in Scotland ? — I am not prepared to say that so large a sum might be necessary. 6889. Are you aware that in England the allowance to old people are seldom above 2s. 6d. a week, unless when bed-fast ? — I believe the allowance is somewhere about that. 6890. Are you aware that the sum of 800,000/. for Scotland, is calculated on the present rate of allowance in England ? — I believe that it is. 6891. If the allowances for old men were raised in England from 2s. 6d. to 6s. a week, the expense in England would be materially increased ; therefore, would not the calculation of 800,000^. a year be altogether inadequate for Scotland, on the scale of allowances which you propose? — I should suppose that Scotland, not being so rich as England, we must be content with less. Rev. Mr Caie, Examined : — . I'^ev. Mr C»ie. 6892. You are one of the city mission ? — I am one of the two secretaries,— the paid se- cretary. 6893. How are the funds provided for that institution ?— Mostly by occasional contribu- tions now. One congregation supports one, another two, anotber three or four, and so on. 6894. Who are the managers of the funds ? — A committee of gentlemen belonging to the town, — mostly all laymen. 6895. How are the members who manage the funds appointed ?— When we want new directors, we consult with the ministers of the churches, which chiefly support the agents, and get them to recommend those whom they think qualified for this duty. The directors are proposed at a public meeting. 6896. Is there a public meeting annually ? — Yes. 6897. Are the agents appointed at that meeting ? — Yes. 384 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examiiiatioiis. 6898. Is the whole of Glasgow divided into districts ? — Yes ; we take up what we can t iLAsoow . manage. We are guided in the selection of districts by the congregations who contribute. Kev. Mr Caie. Dr Kings congregation contributes what supports five, and we have two agents in the 14 Api'il lU4li. neighbourhood of his church. G899. What is the duty of the agents? — It is purely of a spiritual nature, — to call on those who are not attending places of worship to induce them to attend, to deal with them in their own houses. 6900. Is it any part of their duty to provide money, or medicine to the poor ? — It is not connected with tlieir work as missionaries, but they do a good deal in that way. 6901. Do they take charge of the education of the children? — Yes; they are recom- mended to take a particular interest in the children. 6it02. Are the missionaries licentiates of the established church ? — ^No, we have had se- veral licentiates of the estabhshed church, however. We have three who are students in divinity in connexion with the church. We have two licentiates belonging to dissenting bodies, one a recognized minister among the Congregationalists. The rest are students looking forward to the ministry. 6903. Have you had occasion to have much intercourse with the lower orders ? — Yes ; my duty is to visit two houses in the day ; and I assist in any way. I go over nineteen or twenty districts once in the month or so. 6904. How long have you been secretary ? — Four years and a half. I have seen a great deal of the poorest. 690,'). It is amongst the poorest yon visit ? — Yes. 6906. Do you find the distress increasing? — I should decidedly say it is worse this winter, and it has been rather getting worse than otherwise for the last two or three win- ters. 6907. Is it worse now than lately ? — There has been more employment for them within these few weeks. 6908. Is there difficulty in getting relief for the poor when in distress ? — There is great difficulty for those whose period of residence in the town does not entitle them to parochial relief. 6909. Is it the custom of the elders to visit the people who require their assistance ? — I should say from their office the parish elders should visit in their districts ; but the parish elders, I conceive, from the immense portion of the poor, must have more than they can overtake. I have occasionally applied to the elders of particular districts to get poor people parish relief, and in some instances the cases have been properly attended to. 6910. Are people who require relief at a loss to know where to apply? — Many of them are so, till they get information. 6911. Are the agents frequently applied to for information as to the elder ? — They may. 6912. Is there a difficulty in getting proper cases into the town's hospital ? — I could not speak particularly on that subject. We are obliged to avoid secular matters as much as possible. It has been a matter of long debate among the directors, whether the agency should administer temporary relief, because, if it were known that they had anything to give, they woul^ be constantly annoyed. 6913. Do you find many children without education at all ? — The agents are better qualified to speak on that subject ; but the means of education are increasing. Some of our agents complain much in regard to this. In Bridgeton, for instance, and Rotten Row, they have had difficulty in following out the direction given them, — difficulty in getting schools to which to' send the children. Others of our agents have great facilities in this way ; for instance, Greyfriars Church and Dr Heugh's, supply large schools for the poor. 6914. Have the moral and religious instruction, connected with the agency, been the means of bettering the condition of the poor ? — When the instructions take effect they do contribute to better their condition. 6915. But do you find that the instructions do take effect ? — Yes, I find in a number of instances that through the instrumentality of the agents, poor people have got clothes, and have been induced to attend places of worship. 6916. What do you mean by agency ? — The agents are the missionaries. 6917. When the habits of the people are improved by the instructions they receive, are they able to provide for themselves, is tliere any difficulty in the way? — The allowances they get are irrespective of their moral character ; but our mis.sionaries have a variety of ways, which they put in requisition for getting the people attended to. When we find a sober family, we have no great difficulty in getting them taken notice of by some charitable indi\i(luals. 6918. But when their habits are improved, they will be able to do more for themselves, and will be able to get labour for themselves ? — There are many quarters where I can apply for employment to individuals of a good character, — such as poor single women who are sober. I have often got employment for them in winding yarn. 6919. Have you observed much destitution among able-bodied persons.'' — A good deal this winter, in consequence of being out of employment. I have met with two or three families crowded together in one room, the heads of which wcte stout men, able to work; and so far as I could say, from looking at them, they appeared to be decent men. 6920. Do you find that this destitution is peculiar to the present year ? — There is always more or less destitution existing. An active man, of sober habits, is not likely to be long out of employment in Glasgow. There has been this year a great deal of destitution among families, the heads of which are both able and willing to work. 6921. Is there much destitution among able-bodied single women ? — Yes. A great many i POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 385 have themselves to blame. They might get a good deal of employment in cleaning houses ; but the testimony of ladies is, that these women are very much given to drink. Drinking is a horrid evil in Glasgow, and the crowning evil of the poorer classes. Were they sober in ordinary times, it might be easy to keep them from being in an absolutely destitute state. 6922. Do you consider the number of public houses too large ? — Yes, it is an evil of which the agents are constantly complaining. Careful as the agents are in administering temporary relief, they are often outwitted. The agents have given a great deal this winter. Of the 44,000 penny tokens struck, our agents have had at their command nearly two shares of them. Respectable shopkeepers in town, who are bound to give the poor people nothing to injure them, take them, and give them value in food. Our agents have aUvays these penny tokens in their pockets, to give to poor people who are in a starving state. A man told me it was a difficult thing to pray with an empty belly. It is said that there are spirit shops that take the bread the poor people get for these tokens, and give spirits for them. 6923. Do you know if any of the poor have come to Glasgow for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? — A great many come to town who have not perhaps been doing well in the country; but whether they have come for the express purpose of getting themselves saddled on parochial relief, I have no means of knowing. 6924. Have you heard none of them say so to you "i — No. I am not aware that they come for that purpose. I am sorry to say that a great many poor who were in decency before they came here, and attended public worship regularly, have lost sight of that duty after they came to town ; and that is followed by a descending in other respects. 6925. Are there many Highlanders among the poor you visit ? — -A considerable number. 6926. In what condition are they compared with the Irish ? — They are poor too. I dare say they get a good deal of sympathy from their countrymen. Dr Norman M'Leod is a very great friend to them. They are just like others in regard to drinking. Destitution is frequently the effect of their love of whisky. 6927. Is there much begging ? — Yes, a good deal ; and although beggars get a good -deal, they do not make a good use of it. They come home with their few pence, and go to a public house and spend it there. 6928. Is there great facility in town for getting begging letters written ? — I do not know that there is any organized system of it, but there are many written applications handed about. 6929. Are you referred to sometimes to investigate the truth of what is stated on such written applications ? — Yes. 6930. Do you find them correct, or the contrary ? — I have found that those referred to me have been from respectable parties. Exaiiiiiiatiuns. Glasgow. Rpv. Mr Caie. 14 April 1843. Mr 0. Macintosh, Superintendent of the Glasgow Night Asylum, Examined : — Mr 0. Macintosh. 6931. You are superintendent of the night asylum in Glasgow ? — Yes. 6932. What is the immediate object of it ? — To give protection to poor creatures wan- dering about and harmless, and who have no place where to shelter themselves. 6933. Do you keep them more than one night % — Yes, several nights. 6934. Have you any rule to go by ? — We do not like to keep them more than three nights ; but there are many exceptions to that rule. 6935. How many have you in the asylum in general ? — The average of last year, for the whole year, was sixty-nine. 6936. Males and females?— Yes. 6937. Do you take females in with their children .'' — Yes, very often. 6938. Do the police bring them to you, or do they come themselves ? — They come them- selves. 6939. What rule do you go by in keeping them ? — We keep them three nights, and for a longer period if there is necessity for it. We sometimes indulge people whom we con- sider proper objects ; we keep them sometimes for a week, and perhaps longer. 6940. What subsistence do you give them ? — A little porridge and milk to supper every night. 6941 . Are they in one room ? — ^We keep the males and females separate. With that exception there is a good number in one room. We have several rooms in the house. There may be sometimes from ten to twenty in one room. 6942. Do you take charge of them when they go out ? — Sometimes we do. We some- times send a man to inquire after some of them that belong to the city of Glasgow ; because if they are not proper characters we refuse them. 6943. Do you take in common vagrants ? — For a night. 6944. Do they frequently come in intoxicated ? — We do not take in any under the influ- ence of liquor. 6945. Do you take in people who have a dwelling in Glasgow? — We do not, so far as we know. 6946. Then they are chiefly strangers who come to the town that you take in 1 — Yes ; and a number in Glasgow, who are in lodgings when they can pay ; and when they are turned out of their lodgings, they come to us. 3D 386 MINUTES OF E\1DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exainiiiations. Glasgow. Mr 0. Macintosh. 14 April 1843. 6947. Have you reason to believe that many are employed in begging ? — Yes, though it is one of the standing rules not to take in professed beggars. 6948. Have you had applications for admission by any of those in the receipt of parochial relief? — Yes. 6949. Do you investigate their cases ? — Yes, and report them to the vagrant officer. 69.")(». How long has this asylum been established here ? — It was opened in May 1838. 6951. Has it the effect of preventing people from sleeping in the streets ? — Yes, to a cer- tain extent. 6952. But not entirely ?— No. (5953. Especially as far as relates to common beggars ? — Quite so. 6954. What was the average number in a ni<;ht throughout the year ? — The first year» 62 ; the next, 63 ; the next, 66 ; and last year 69. 6955. Are they in a state of great destitution ? — Yes, clothing and all. 695(5. You do not give them clothing ? — We sometimes do, — we sometimes get clothing, and give it to those of proper character, We never give it unless we have a proper opinion of the parties. 6957. Do they frequently return more than once ? — Oh, yes, now and then, — perhaps once a quarter, and oftener. G958. When they are turned out of their lodgings ? — Yes, and particularly at the terra time. 6959. Do you admit boys? — Yes. 6960. Are you aware whether any of them are runaways from their parents living in Glasgow ? — Yes ; but we detect these boys, and send them home. 6961. Do you make inquiry in respect to the cause of their being obliged to come to you ? —We do. 6962. When any persons come, old or young, do j'ou make inquiry of the cause of their needing your protection ? — Yes, every night. Two or three gentlemen sit every night till the cases are disposed of. There are thirty-six directors, and three sit every night, and every case is examined. 6963. Do you inquire whether they are under the absolute necessity of coming to you ?^ Invariabl}'. Every person who goes there is examined. 6964. What is the result of the examinations as to the cause of their being necessitated to come to you ? — A number are widows who have children, and have nothing to support them. A number of husbands leave their families in search of work, and they are obliged to come to us when they get nothing from their husbands, and so forth. 6965. Just the pressure of immediate want ? — Yes. 6966. Do people come to you who have houses of their own? — No, they cannot attempt that now with us. We have a policeman in the house who generally knows their character. Saturday, 15th Apnl 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Mr R. Kettle. n April 1843. Mr Robert Kettle, Merchant, Glasgow, Examined : — 6967. You are president of the total abstinence society .'' — Yes. 6968. What is your situation in life? — A cotton yarn merchant. 6969. How long is it since the society existed? — Fourteen years since the temperance society commenced ; nine years since the total abstinence society was instituted. 6970. Is it in connexion with similar societies in Ireland? — No farther than considering ourselves engaged in the same object. 6971. Are the members of the society chiefly natives of Glasgow, or are they from the country ? — I have made no inquiry as to that. 6972. Are they enrolled ? — Yes ; subscribed by a pledge. 6973. What number have you on the roll? — It is difficult to say how many 6owa/cf« members there are. The number enrolled, on the Glasgow society, has been very great,— from five to seven thousand are at least at present true members. 6974. Are those belonging to the Glasgow society chiefly residents in Glasgow.'— Entirely so. 6975. Do you find that they generally adhere to their pledges ? — Not generally. There are more from the commencement who have fallen from their pledges than have adhered to it ; but we have a pretty good staff' always adhering. POOR LAW INQUIRY COilMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 387 6976. You have many who have adhered from the beginning ? — I know a good many. 6977. Have you reason to know whether it makes a beneficial change on their habits ? — I have uniformly found the change greatly t9 the better. In nine cases out of ten families are greatly benefited by it. I have been connected with a great many religious and bene- volent societies in Glasgow for the last twenty-five years ; and I have seen more good from it than from all the rest. 6978. Is it confined to males ? — No, it is composed of males, females, and children, so young some of them as ten years of age. 6979. Do you take children so young? — Yes. 6980. Do they undestand the nature of a pledge ? — Quite so, — easier sometimes than old people. 6981. What is the extent and nature of the abstinence ? — From every thing that intoxi- cates. The temperance society is merely abstinence from ardent spirits ; we abstain from all fermented and distilled liquors. 6982. Do you find that it increases the consumption of coffee amongst them ,'' — Yes, that is reported in the public documents. We find the consumpt of coffee greatly increased. 698;^. Do you make an annual report? — Regularly. 698 1. Is it printed ?— Yes. 6985. Could you furnish the Commission with one ? — Yes. [A report was given in.] 698G. What means have you of informing yourself as to whether individuals do adhere to the pledge ? — The town is divided into districts. Each of them has a separate committee, who live in the locality. They have generally the means of ascertaining who are faithful to their pledges, and who are not. 6987- Do you happen to know, or have you ever enquired whether many persons belong- ing to the society are people receiving parochial relief, or are they in general working people ? — The better part of them are generally of the working classes. The greater part of them are decent religious people, and who join from benevolent motives. - 6988. Have you any of the lowest .?— We have some of the lowest ; but they are only a few. 6989. Do you consider it as a means of preventing them from being reduced to poverty? — Distinctly. If all were tee-totallers, I would take in hand to manage the whole of Scot- land with the one-half of the present assessment, and make the poor more comfortable than they now are. 6990. Were you a deacon in St John's parish when Dr Chalmers was there ? — Yes, when Dr Chalmers opened the parish ; and also under Dr M'Farlan, and a good many years under Dr Brown. 6991. Are the females in the total abstinence society servants? — Not many, — they are mostly girls working in shops, and warehouses ; and some of them are factory girls. 6992. Have you observed a tendency in such societies to produce intolerant feelings towards those who differ from them ? — A little, — with a few, a very few of the members. G993. Have you seen any tendency in them to go into matters of a different description, — such as political matters ? — I have heard of such things, but I never saw anything of the kind. We have never had any interruptions from the chartists, or any one else. Our meet- ings have been respected when others were smashed by political factions. 6994. Do any bad effects arise from speechifying at these meetings ? — Nothing but good, that is to say, when the speeches are to the point. I have never seen any exceptions to this. 6995. What was the reason why Dr Chalmers' system was discontinued in St John's parish ? — I can hardly answer that question, as I left three years before its discontinuance ; but I believe the chief reason was, that being set up as an example, there was no likelihood of its being followed ; and there was no practical use in keeping it up. 6996. Was the growth of the population, being greater than the corresponding increase of the collections at the church doors, not one of the causes ? — I am not aware that was the case. Examinations, (JLASOOW. Mr R, Kettle. 15 April I8«. Charles R. Baird, Esq., Writer, Glasgow, Examined : — C. B. Baii-d, Esq. 6997. You have been the honorary secretary of the Glasgow relief committee since 1837 ?— Yes. 6998. You were also the honorary secretary to the committee for afibrding assistance to the destitute Highlanders in 1836? — I have been so down to the present time, t 6999. You are likewise the author of a Sanitary Report on Glasgow, and of a report in conjunction with Mr Fullerton on the state of the West Highlands and Islands of Scotland ? —Yes. 7000. Have you also paid attention to the condition of the poor in Glasgow in regard to the poor laws ? — I have. 7001. Will you state to the Commission the circumstances connected with the formation of the relief committee in 1837, and the proceedings connected with it then and since? — In the beginning of 1837, a large number of the operative classes were reduced to great destitution, in consequence of the depressed state of trade, and the consequent want of employment, and the high price of provisions. A public meeting was held in the month of May of that year, when a committee was named, and a subscription list opened, which, in the course of a few months, amounted to upwards of 5000/. ; and having received a balance of about 3000/. from a former relief committee, they took measures to supply those of the m MINUTES OF E^^DE^X'E TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinntions. applicants who could work with work, and they gave soup and bread to the other applicants. O lasoow . j think in these notes, from a report which I prepared on the subject, will be found the C. K. Kaird Esq. D^mbers then upon the fund. We had upwards of 18,000 at one time on the fund. The 1.5 April 1B-J3. greater number of men we got employed were weavers: of this class we had 2884 on the fund. The great disproportion of weavers may be accounted for from the fact that that fund was raised more especially with a view to assist the hand-loom weavers. The first motion was moved by Sheriff Alison, which was to the eflfect that we should turn our assistance, in the first instance, to the providing of means for the assistance of that class. I beg to read from pages 4th and 5th of " Observations upon the Poorest Classes of Opera- tives in Glasgow, 1837.'' TABLE I.— A STATEMENT of the Persons who were supplied with Work by the Glasgow Relief Committee in 1837. APPLICANTS. Scotch. Irish. English. Foreigners. Total. Glasgow. Other parts Total. Weavers, married, single, Total, Other Trades, married, single. Total, Total married, .... ... unmarried. Total, Ages of Applicants — Below 30, .... 30 to 50, .... Above 50, .... Total, Children of Applicants — Under 10 years of age, . Above 10, .... Total, Unionists, and their ages — Below 30, ... . 30 to 50, .... Above 50, ... . Total, 7.53 398 440 148 1193 646 9i8 165 23 9 7 3 2171 713 1151 688 1739 1103 32 10 2884 60 52 45 34 95 86 7 102 86 102 79 181 7 188 803 450 486 182 1288 632 948 165 30 9 7 3 2273 799 12.53 667 1920 1103 39 10 3072 607 497 149 227 265 175 8.34 762 324 304 632 267 17 16 7 3 6 1 1158 1315 599 1253 667 1920 1103 39 10 3072 1535 702 694 642 2229 1244 1690 1020 66 39 19 3 3994 2roe 2237 1236 3473 2710 96 22 6.300 259 284 70 123 149 53 382 4.33 123 176 302 117 8 10 1 1 666 746 241 613 325 938 696 19 1 1553 TABLE n. — A LIST of the Persons who were supplied with Food at the Soup-Kitchens. Weavers, Other trades, Scotch — Glasgow, Other parts Irish, English, . . . Foreigners, Total, . ilales. 400 312 266 18 4 Weavers, Other trades. Ages — under 30 30 to 50 Above 50 1000 Females. Total. 62?} ^^^^ 1000 175 Unmarried, 131 499 Married, 475 326 "\A'idowed, 394 1000 Total, 1000 Total, Number of children under 10, 1428 ; above 10, 706 ; independent of parents, 54 ; total 2188. Of the 3072 applicants who received work, nearly two-thirds (as might Indeed have been expected) were Scotchmen, the number of Scotch ajiplicants being 1920, viz. — Married men, weavers, of other trades. Single men, weavers, of other trades, The number of Irish applicants was 1103, vlz.- Married men, weavers, Single men, ... . 1193) 95| 54( 86 1288 !| 632 ! 1920 155) ^'■^'^ POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 389 7002. Were there paid inspectors of the work? — At that time we had two paid officers, Examinations. one of them, Mr M' Arthur, who took the principal charge of the management of the fund ; Glasoow. the other was a person who managed the weaving department. Besides, I was allowed a q [^ "Bairir Esq. clerk under me, who took a general management under my direction. We also received i.i April \MX aid from the poor rate authorities in investigating cases ; and great aid from the River Trustees, in providing work for the poor, and in managing the men. Not only did they give work, but they paid the wages, and looked after the conduct of the men. By the aid too of Mr Brebner we established soup-kitchens in different parts of the city and suburbs ; and those for whom we could not find work, or who were unable for such work as we could give them, we supplied with soup and bread, and some with porridge. 7003. When were the operations of that committee brought to a close ? — The committee continued in active operation almost till the end of November 1837 ; and our operations were renewed as exigencies required during the latter end of the winter, and in the spring of each of the following years— 1838, 1839, 1841, and 1842. 7004. Can you state the numbers relieved during those winters ? — I have made up no distinct account of them, because it was only to pass over the time by providing for the extreme cases. By the assistance of the police authorities, and the elders in some of the districts, as well as by the members of the committee, we managed to give work to some of the parties, and to supply others with food. From 1837 down to 1842, it was under the same management as in 1837. 7005. In 1842 another committee was appointed.? — In 1842 there were great com- plaints in regard to the extent of destitution. Not a few of the members of the former committee had died during the intermediate time ; others of them had removed from Glas- gow ; and in consequence of the fund itself being nearly brought to a close, it was deemed necessary to form a new committee in order to get a more adequate management, and to raise an additional fund. Accordingly, the relief committee of 1837 resolved to hand over, to any future committee that might be appointed, the balance of stock they had on hand, consisting of broken road metal, and a meeting was held on the 12th of May last, when a new committee was appointed. That committee took power to raise funds by sub- scription ; and, at this time the subscription list from May 1842 amounts to 12,025/. The general committee subdivided itself into a working committee, to procure work to the applicants ; a finance committee to raise funds, and check the treasurer's account ; and district committees for the city proper, the Barony, Gorbals, Anderston, Calton, and for some of the out villages, Camlachie, Parkhead, and so on. These district committees had power to employ inspectors to inquire into the cases, and report to the general committee, by whom alone at first relief was given. Clerks were appointed to sit in a central office from nine in the morning till four in the afternoon, and from six to eight in the evening, to receive applications, take down the statements of the applicants, and other particulars, and give them a schedule to fill in the answers, which were to be attested by the last employer. Then these schedules were handed to one of the inspectors, so that he should investigate into, and report upon the cases. When a case was reported upon, the com- mittee judged whether the applicant was entitled to relief, and if entitled he got work, or rations of soup and bread. Our plan was embodied in our sederunt-book. 7006. Respecting the regulations about work, had you paid superintendents? — We had at the time the committee started in 1842. I was allowed such clerks as I thought necessary, and also to appoint inspectors for each of the districts. The inspectors were paid from 15s. to 20s. each. It was only after several years' experience, that the Glasgow committee saw the necessity of appointing inspectors to have the cases fully re- ported on. The fund was infinitely better managed after we did appoint paid inspectors. We had more distinct reports in cases, and we were enabled more easily to deal with applicants. 7007. Was there inspection previously ? — Yes, by a commissioner of police, an elder, or respectable householder ; but we found that parties did not hesitate at all to forge the names of those inspectors, and even so clumsily sometimes, that we found the signature Mr Brown, instead of James Brown. 7008. Might the paid inspectors appointed, have been on the list of applicants for relief themselves ? — No. We were assisted in the Barony by Mr M'Laren, and in the Govan an- nexation, by Mr Cassills. One person was employed, who, for aught I can say, might have been on the list. He was reported honest and industrious. His occupation left him for a time, and we employed him as an inspector. In 1842 the number of applicants was so great, and the amount of work so burdensome, that I was obliged to abandon the idea that I had, of keeping accounts from time to time of the numbers upon the fund, and of the condition of the parties. I have here one TABLE 890 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TxiKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. TABLE Showing the Number of Persons Man-ied and Unmarried, Widows and Widowers, C. B. Baird ':Esq, ^**'* their Dependents, who have applied to the Relief Committee for aid, 28th April 15 April 1843. ' 1842. No. of N limber of Married. Jnmarried. Widows and r>ei>en-kitchen, would not that remove some of the obstacles which weigh with you ? — Yes ; it would be the means of doing much good. I understood a question formerly put as referring to children removed from the domicile of their parents. 7198. But I don't mean removed from the domicile of their parents, or from their parents ? — It would be useful. I would object to none such. 7199. Do you think it would be difficult to get schools in large towns on such a founda- tion as this ? — I don't think it would be difficult, if government were to make provision for it. 7200. You mentioned that you would like the house of refuge to be connected with the prisons, — is it the fact that those in the house of refuge are eitlier those actually convicted in the town, or those who are liable to stand trial on indictment ? — A very large number of them are of that class. We are more disposed to open the doors of the institution to boys who are caught in the first act of stealing. 7201. If the boys are not actually connnitted to prison, don't you think a prejudice might arise with regard to the school as connected with the prison, and that something of that prejudice might attach to the name and character of those who were educated at such an mstitution afterwards ?— We have felt the force of that. 7202. Would not that be an argument for keeping the two institutions apart? — It is Hkely the union would impress on the institution a character different from which it at present possesses ; that is, of being an auxiliary prison. Auxiliary means should be provided to a food education, such as savings' banks, to encourage economical habits ; and means should e furnished for the purpose of exercising their minds, as mechanics institutions. There are such temptations to evil habits, that their minds require to be employed on proper objects. There ought also to be pubUc amusements. 7203. I understood you to say that you attended to the boys after they left ? — Yes. 7204. And so far as you are acquainted with their subsequent conduct, you found it satis- factory ? — Yes. 7205. There is no report showing how far they relapsed after leaving the institution ? — We have no statistical tables. We have nothing in the reports. There has been no report since 1840, 7206. Do you think it would be desirable to transfer the management of the poor to the kirk-session ? — They have one-half of the management at present. 7207. But exclusively ? — I am not very sure of that. 7208. What is your objection ? — There would be such a large number of administrators if it were placed under the diflPerent sessions, that veiy great difficulty would be found in enforcing any general mode of administration. 7209. Do you think it would be possible to dispense with an assessment in Glasgow, and to maintain the poor solely by the collections at church doors ? — We have had that experi- ment tried in Glasgow in isolated cases ; but I have always looked on these experiments as not fair ; and I have thought, that if the experiment were to be made on the principle of those particular parishes where it has been tried, it ought to be extended to the whole of Glasgow ; for it may still be considered as one parish as regards the poor. 7210. Do you think it desirable or practicable? — It is most desirable, if it were found to answer. 7211. Do you think it practicable? — The experiment might be made; but it is difficult to say how far the success woidd be commensurate with one's wishes. 7212. Woidd you wish to see the experiment ? — I should wish to see it. 7213. On what grounds did you think the experiment, as tried, not fair? — Because the particular parishes in which it was tried did not present an exact proportion of the different classes of the community. For instance, in St John's parish, the principal contributors were ]ieople fiom the West end, who attended from preference. Then the hardship was peculiar, tiiat those people, when they were supporting the poor of the parish, were paying, in the shape of a general assessment, for the behoof of the poor. 7214. But are you not aware that they would have been giving their collection at any rate to some church ?— I apprehend the parties making contributions in St John's parish at the church door, were also contributing, in the shape of an assessment, to the poor ; and tliat must operate on the system. 7215. Did they complain of that as a hanlship?— I am not aware that they did ; but it strikes me as a strong objection to a partial experiment of that kmd. POOR LAW INQUIRY CO^IMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 405 7216. Would it be an objection, so far as regards the hearers or the inhabitants of the parish ? — The inhabitants of the parish were of course subject to the assessment also. There were certain objections arising from the management of the poor. It was alleged, in the case of St John's, that, by a very strict surveillance of the poor, many of them were driven out to other parishes. 7217. Are you aware wliether a great many came out of that parish? — I am aware that it has been stated. Still the experiment never was fauiy tried. 7218. Do you think the poor would come in in greater numbers if they found It for their interest? — I think it a fair inference, tliat where their wants were attended to, they would. 7219. And that they would place themselves in a district where they found their interests best attended to ? — Yes ; I think that would be the effect. There is so much in the prin- ciple of voluntary charity in supporting the poor that recommends it, that it woxdd be very desirable that it siiould have a fair trial. I am very strongly convinced of this conclusion, that if religious and moral instruction were commensurate with the population, that system might be found efficient in meeting pauperism. 7220. Are you aware of the experiment having been tried in other parishes ? — Yes ; it was also tried in St David's and St George's. 7221. What was the residt? — They gave it up from want of proper support. 7222. Supposing that system not adopted, would you recommend any fiulher inspection by paid officers than at present ? — I think it would be necessary that farther inspection should take place. In the hosj)ital they have got additional inspection. The duty is very heavy ; and they gave the inspector a clerk lately. 7223. Was not farther assistance offered him, and did he not decline it ? — I don't remem- ber. I think it was so. He said a clerk woidd be quite sufficient. 7224. I believe a roU is made up of the inhabitants in every parish without the city ? — I think it has been done by the different sessions. 7225. Supposing tlie system of education you recommend were adopted^ would it les- sen the number of those who come to the house of refuge ? — Yes, it would. 7220. I need scarcely ask whether you would think it better that they shoxild be taken out of the way before they have committed offences than afterwards ? — Yes, I woidd. 7227. You propose to attach a house of industry to the house of refuge — on what plan ? — The plan was never digested. It was thought well to make the experiment. We have a great floating population, who have no fixed residence, and often pretending to be in the greatest poverty. They might be sent there, and tested as to whether they have any incli- nation for work. 7228. Would you propose such a house both for males and females, or for the one only ? — I have no doubt it might be commenced by voluntary subscrijjtions. It would begin with men, no doubt, but certaiidy both classes might be admitted. 7229. Any who are not entitled to relief fi'om the assessment ? — Yes. 7230. Able-bodied men ? — Able-bodied men. 7231. What is the general state of the working classes in ordinary times? — In ordinary seasons they are very well employed ; but in such a town as this there are always some thousands of people living on their shifts, and not willing to work. The relief committee liave found great annoyance from that class. 7232. For such you would have a house of industry ? — Yes. 7233. By voluntary subscription ? — Yes. 7234. Then I undei-stand you do not propose to give any legal claim for relief to such persons ? — No, I don't. 7235. Do you not think that advisable ? — No. The only difficulty, to my mind, is con- nected with this periodical depression, when poor people are tlirown out of employment. There is a difficulty in meeting such an emergency by the present poor laws. 7236. Woidd you recommend anything with regard to such a long-continued depression as the present? — It has often occun-ed to me that it might be expedient if the power were some- Avhere lodged of imposing a temporary assessment, to meet such a contingency. In Glasgow, hitherto the money has been got by public subscription. But there is great difficulty in getting a sufficient amount of money. I am not sure, but the representative body for the public feeling and interest is the corporation. At the same time, it cannot always be said that it is the fair representative of the property of the community. As a safeguard against the abuse of the power, it might be provided that the assessment should be made only with tlie consent of two-thirds or three-fourths. But that is one chief difficulty connected with the proposal. If a provision of that kind were made by the legislature, it would meet all that is required. Our law is sufficient to permit the allowance to be increased to any legitimate extent. 7237. Are there often numbers of able-botlied women unemployed ? — No, not when trade is in its usual state. There is considerable employment for females connected with the manufiictories. 7238. Would you not think it necessary to have a house of industry for them ? — ^I don't think so. The want is not so much felt. 7239. What is your objection to a house of industry being supported by assessment, if it were established without vesting any right in the parties to have relief there ?— I could have no objection to its being supported by assessment, provided the administration were left to a board of directors, not giving parties a legal right to come there. An assessment is probably the best sort of way of supporting such an institution, because voluntary support is always precarious. 7240. In prosperous times, would not that meet the floating destitution of Glasgow ? — I think it would. Exaniiiiations. Glasgow. Mr Leadbetter. 17 April 1843. 406 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Leadbettcr. 17 April 1843. 7241. And if you had the proceeds of a general assessment, and the power of assessment for the imemployed, with an administration under strict regulations, that provision would meet tliat case ? — Yes. The difficulty there would be, that the unemployed hold this right while they continued imemployed. 7242. If no right were given ? — ^If no right were given, then there would be less objection ; and I think it woidd be beneficial ; but it woidd be difficidt to regulate the moral pressure for relief. We have generally managed here to put off as long as possible, for it is astonish- ing how the working classes wUl shift for themselves. 7243. Does that affect the character of the people ? — I daresay it has a deteriorating effect. 7244. Could you say whether the assessment would not have the effect of counteractiu"- the effect of the institution, in making the people pro^dde for themselves? — I think it would; but it is a balance of difficulties. 7245. Is there much begging in Glasgow ? — A good deal this winter. 724G. Supposing the alternative were betwixt begging and a regidar provision, under strict regulations ? — Of the two, I think begging the worse ; but in the case of the other, it gets to such an extent, that the quantum of deterioration would be much greater under that plan, than under vagrancy or begging. 7247. But under strict regulations, without a legal right ? — Without a legal right that would do nmch benefit. 7248. Do you think there is a very great superabundance of population in Glasgow, and the towns around it ? — There is a superabundance with regai-d to employment. 7249. But, taking an average of two or tlu-ee years, woiild you say there is a great super- abundance ?— For the last two yeai-s there has been a superabundance. 7250. Would you recommend any plan for meeting the surplus population, at the public expense, by emigration ? — I never was able to see any plan adequate to meet the surjilus popidation in this country, except at an expense which no government would encounter. The i)lan of emigration would be of very great advantage, if it could be accomplished ; but the expense is a point which the government cannot grapple with. 7251. Do you think the munber of persons would be so great that the government could not grapple with it ?— Yes. 7252. But even if relief by emigration were practicable, and the surplus popidation for the time being removed, would not the gap soon be filled up, and would we not soon be in tlie same state as that ia which we are ? — I think we would ; and the plan of emigration would require to be carried on continually. 7253. And then with regard to the assessment for relief of the unemployed, even if the difficulty as to the body by whom it should be unposed wei-e obviated, still would not tlie fact of the assessment being recognized for these purijoses, have the same effect as the recognition of a legal right? — I think not, not to the same extent. 7254. Do you tliink it desirable to alter the law of settlement, by extending the term of residence, or otherwise ?— Yes. I should say it is too short. As to the addition it is diffi- cult to determine. I think if it were doubled it would be improved. 7255. With regard to the means which are raised by assessment in Glasgow, it is done by an act relating to the city of Glasgow alone? — Yes. 7256. Wlien was that act obtained ? — ^About three years ago. 7257. Were you in the council ?— Yes ; and I took a considerable interest in promoting the change. That was not to the effect of introducing an assessment, but of altering its principle. Previously the assessment had been raised on means and substance, — which is the law of Scotland in the case of burghs. But it was found so impracticable a {)lan, and so unsuited to the altered character of the community in Glasgow, that it was ong felt a grievance, and various attempts were made to change it, without success. But at Last it was accomplished, about three years ago ; and the assessment is now laid on upon the rental, instead of upon means and substance — supposed capital. 7258. Was the change generally approved of? — Yes, I may say by the majority of the community. 7259. The rate-payers ? — It was opposed by persons holding a considerable amount of house property. The principle I could have wished carried out, but we durst not attempt it, for it could not have been canied, — was to have laid the whole upon the occupants ; but, to reconcile the measure to the views of the shopkeepers, whose rents were very high, we were induced to lay one-half on the landlord, and one-half on the tenant ; and we were induced to do so the more, as that Mas the system which prevailed in the Barony parish. 7260. Was there considerable op])osition given to the bill? — Not considerable. The change had been repeatedly attempted before, and the opposition had always been successM in preventing it. The number of large house proprietors was sufficient to prevent the change. But there is no question M'hatever that this is the least objectionable and fairest mode of raising the money. Under the former system, fifteen assessors were appointed to cone over the circumstances of every ^ndi^•idual, and to form an estimate of what he was worth, and according to that estimate the money was apportioned. 7261. The people were generally satisfied ? — Yes. I think so. In every change of a local tax it must affect some individuals unequally ; and so in this case. 7262. But don't you think it fairer that the people should be taxed on their wealth, than on their rental ? — The fonner principle is the fairest, but it is wholly unworkable in a large to^Ya. It is qidte impossible to lay such a tax on anything like a piinciple of justice in Glasgow. 7263. You mean it is difficult to obtain an account of the wealth of each party ; but so far it was workable ? — No. JNIany paid more unequally. POOK LAW INQUIRY COINBIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 407 7264. But don't they pay more unequally under the present system? — No ; I think not. Perhaps some extreme cases may be mentioned. 7265. Woidd there not be a greater facility now since the income tax has been intro- duced ? — No ; I am not sure there would. The assessment was paid on capital, not upon income. Sir Robert Peel's tax is upon income. 7266. The old Glasgow tax was on means and wealth as a whole ? — Yes. 7267. As a whole? — As a whole. 7268. You are a manager of Hutchinson's Hospital? — I am preceptor. 7269. Does that institution contribute to the relief of the poor in Glasgow ? — It does not contribute to the ordinary poor, but it prevents their increase. 7270. By what means ? — Because it distributes a considerable sum to the poor people who, but for that relief and what they receive from other institutions, would have become paupers. 7271. Can you mention any of the other institutions to which you i-efer? — The merchants' house, and tlie trades' house, and all the corporations. 7272. How does the merchants' house contribute to those in distressed circumstances ? — They give pensions to the widows and families of those who have been u.embers. 7273. And the trades' ? — ^Much on the same principle. 7274. Do you know the sum the trades' pay annually? — The trades' distribute 6000/J. or 7000/. a year ; the merchants' about 1500/. ; Hutchinson's Hospital 2500Z., and about lOOOZ. on education. 7275. Can you inform us of the highest and lowest allowances given by the different corpora- tions ? — No. The allowances from Hutchinson's nos[)ital range from H. to 20/. a year. 7276. And among the persons receiving these allowances, there are some who would come on the poor roll but for such relief? — I think so. We had a very interesting case this month when taking on the usual number of boys. AVe have 120 or 130 boys connected with the charity ; we take in one-fourth of them yearly ; and it is the rule to preclude pauper children from the benefit of the school. We found that one woman who had applied for her cliild had received relief from the Barony parish. We stated tliat this was a disqualification, and that we could not take the boy. She called on me in the greatest possible distress. She would have f)referred the education of her boy to any relief from the Barony parish. I told her if she came next year without having received parochial relief her case would be favour- ably considered. She left me with the intention evidently of dropping that. 7277. Is acbnission to Hutchinson's Hospital not limited to the sons of burgesses? — That is the qualification ; but from the clianges in Glasgow we have found it impossible to fill up the school by adhering to that ; and wo allow them admission if they establish that their grandfather was a burgess. There is a considerable relaxation as to enforcing that rule in the case of j)ersons carrying on trade in Glasgow. 7278. Do you mean to say you have found a difficulty in filling up the number of scholars? — Yes ; and it is a curious fact of which I am satisfied that a great many of the parents of the boys have entered as burgesses for the purpose of getting their children entered at these schools. 7279. Are there many children of poorer people who are educated at the trades' schools ? — I don't know. They arc the cliildren of members of the different corj:)orations ; but what may be the qualification I do not know. I may, however, make a suggestion, that the en- tire education and charity given by these different local institutions might be investigated, as the subject bears on the present inquiry. 7280. Could you procure a statement of the funds of Hutchinson's Hospital ? — Yes, I could. 7281. Would you have the kindness to send it ? — I shall have much pleasure. 7282. There are other schools privately endowed ? — There are several schools endowed by charitable individuals — lliller's, WUson's, and Murdoch's schools. 7283. Are any of these very large schools ? — -Some of them are pretty large. 7284. There is also a Female Orphan Institution ? — I don't know much about it. There is a school of industry which has been transfen-ed to the normal school. If I may be allowed to make another suggestion, I should like that you shovdd be able to ascertain the amount of money deposited in the different savings' banks. We have an annual meeting, and, with the view of ascertaining something of the economical habits of the labouring jjopidatlon, I drew out a statement, so that an accurate account might be given of the difi'erent depositors in the different banks. But there was a jealousy. I am connected with the National Savings' Bank. It has been established for five years. We have now 209,000/. ; and it is going on in- creasing. We made a communication to the Provident Bank, wishing it to be merged in the national ; because the promoters thought it much better to take advantage of the government act. They dechncd ; and this institution is established on its own footing. Its success has been very great. We have an interestmg table of the different trades that take advantage of it ; and as, I daresay, you have got the amount deposited with the Provident Bank, it would be desirable to get the others in the suburbs where there are only two or three ; and that would present a very interesting view of the habits of the people. There is one in Anderston, in Gorbals, in Calton, in Cowcaddens. There is one class of depositors much more limited than the managers of the bank could wish ; that is, the factory operatives. They form a considerable class of the community here. They have large wages in good times, and we don't think they take advantage of the institution as they ought. There is a jealousy which we have tried to remove in various ways. They imagine that if the masters knew they were saving money, it would make them less disposed to employ them, or lead them to reduce their wages. We have found very great difficulty in bringing them to a right understanding of the subject. We have tried to get the foreman to manage it ; but the prejudice still stands very much in the way. The list of these in November 1841, in- Examinatious. Glasgow. Mr Leactter, 17 April 1843. 408 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Ijeadl>ett€r. 17 April 1843. eluded 700. I hold in my hand the last report published in January ; and from that it a[v pears, that in 1836, the depositors who were fiictory operatives, were 489 ; in 1837, 491 ; in 1838, 315 ; in 1839, 111 ; in 1840, 168 ; in 1841, 417 ; in 1842 they were 342— makmg the total males 1440 — females 893 ; and the total of both for these seven years of new entrants, 2333. The number remaining of those having money in the bank, is 1422. Of domestic servants having deposits, there were 2559 in November. The effect of depositing money in these banks is of a very beneficial character. A\Tien a man gets a little money he acquires a strong desire to accumulate. That occasions frugality at home ; and many manage to show a regular deposit of Is. a week or a month. [The witness then put in the reports of the directors of the Glasgow society for repressing juvenile delinquency, 1839, 1840, relative to the house of refuge ; also tliird, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh reports of the National Security Savings' Bank.] Mr R, Watson. Mr Robert Watson, Examined : 7285. You are manager of the National Security Savings' Bank ? — Yes. 7286. Is that the seventh report of the society ? — Yes. 7287. Have you reason to believe that the report is correct ? — Yes, it is very correct. 7288. Does the number of depositors appear in that report? — Yes. 7289. And you believe the statement of their number correct ? — I believe it is very correct. 7290. Do the sums deposited by the different classes of depositors appear from that report ? — From the sixth they do. It is a statement which requires a great deal of labour ; and therefore we don't put it in eveiy year. It is at page 7 of the Sixth Report. CLASSIFICATION of DEPOSITORS, ^vith their respective Balances at 20th November 1841. Section. Number of each Class. DESCRIPTION. .\mount belonging to each class. Totals. Average. 2288 II. 111. IV. V. VI. VII. 6783 ■ ( 179 12109 2604 700 720 1001 861 L 897 268 — 268 2" { IJ? 305 — 305 1463 ^'^ ^ 1859 13,239 ( 92 199 < 102 13,438 Domestic Servants, Male, .' . . . Do. Do. Female, .... Mechanics and Artificers, .... Factory Operatives, or Mill Workers, Workers in Warehouses, Warpers. Hand-Loom AVeavers, Dyers, and Bleachers,* Clerks and Warelniusemen, .... 81iopkceper3 and Small Traders, . . Labourers, Carters, Porters, .... Professional persons, such as Surgeons, Clergy- men, &:c. Soldiers and Sailors, Excise, Customs, Post- Office, Police, Agricultural Employments, Gardeners, &c. Minors, under 15 years, i HousehoMers, Annuitants, Spinsters, Lodging- \ House Keepers, and other descriptions not \ specified, Total Individual Depositors, .... Charitable Institutions, .... Friendly Societies, Branch Banks, Total Balance, £ ». d. 3,142 10] 22,378 18 4 J 29,652 6 in 7,497 15 1 8,900 1 11 13,909 5 1 12,047 2 9 9,712 15 Oj 4,188 17 8 1,.5.93 18 3) 2,386 17 0/ 4,505 I 1 9,340 I 7 29,529 £ I. d. 25,520 19 2 81,809 6 9 4,188 17 8 3,980 15 3 4,505 1 1 38,869 1 7 £ ». d. 17 11 10 12 2 11 7 8 10 14 2 12 9 8 13 17 10 13 19 10 10 16 6 15 12 7 13 14 9 15 4 14 15 4 6 7 8 15 17 8 158,874 1 6 3,393 1 5,171 8 1 5,765 16 1} 158,874 I 6 14,330 1 9 12 173,204 3 3 173,204 3 3 * The particulars of this head arc— 409 Workers in Warehouses, ,1923/. 28. 8d. ; 93 Warpers, 1394/. 2s. 2d. ; llIHand- Looni Weavers, 1844/. 14s. ; 107 Dyers and Bleachers, 1828/. 3s. Id.; in all 720, and their amount in money, 8990/. Is. lid., as above stated. This Table may be consulted in connexion with No. V., the Comparative Classification of New Entrants. 7291. And that you believe correct? — I believe it is perfectly correct. 7292. Is there a small proportion of factory operatives among them ? — The proportion is smaller than of other classes. 7293. Have they been increasing or diminishing? — "We have always some increase every year. But of these there is a small proi)ortion to the other classes. 7294. Can you give a comparative table of the new members ? — ^Yes ; there is one at page 5. 7295. Does that show an increase or decrease within the lust year? — Yes, there is a little decrease. [The following table was then put in.] POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 409 COMPARATIVE CLASSIFICATION OF NEW ENTRANTS. NEW ENTRANTS IN YEAR ENDING 20TH Total. is 4* DESCRIPTION OF DEPOSITORS. NOVEMBER. Total. 1836. 1837. 1838. 1839. 1840. 1841. 1842. Male. Female. Agricultural Employments, 284 196 128 121 93 711 Ill 822 291 Domestic Servants, .... 167 654 647 1132 921 675 704 390 4,510 4,900 2,559 Mechanics, Artificers, and their Wives, 370 1036 2202 1557 1571 1276 839 7,481 1,370 8,851 2,506 Clerks, Shopkeepers, &c. „ „ 613 961 1014 775 737 2,917 1,183 4,100 2,212 Factory Operatives, .... 489 4.01 315 111 168 417 342 1,440 893 2,333 1,422 Minors under 15 years. 165 387 466 331 519 376 313 1,479 1,078 2,557 1,706 Labourers, Carters, Coachmen, and their Wives, — „ 9G 370 401 544 .387 1,,595 203 1,798 945 Seafaring and Regimental Employments, ^ « „ « 60 77 53 144 46 190 122 Professional — Clergymen, Teachers, Surgeons, Revenue OfBcers, their Wives and Daughters, „ „ „ „ 119 289 121 432 96 529 356 Householders, Annuitants, Lodging- House Keepers, Portioners, Spinsters, and otlier descriptions not specified, Total Individuals, 783 1170 ~ ~ 182 280 358 1,066 1,707 2,773 1,623 1974 3738 4G32 4658 5083 4830 3947 17,656 11,1,97 28,853 13,742 Charitable Societies and Provident Associations, .... 42 42 32 28 20 29 37 ^ ^^ 230 102 Friendly Societies, .... 13 6 50 49 44 34 36 „ „ 232 121 Branch Banks, "■ Total Accounts Opened, ~ ~ 1 3 1 ~ ~ " - 5 4 2029 37«0 4706 4738 5148 4893 4020 ~ 29,320 13,969 Bxainiiiatioits. Gl.isoow. Mr K. Watson. 17 April 1843. 7296. There are several of these savings' banks ?— There are several not on the national secui-Ity principle, in addition to the old provident. There are, for example, those of Ander- ston, Gorbals, and Mile-end. 7297. To what do you attribute the diminution of de^jositors among the factory operatives, from 1836 to 1839 ?— It is difficult to say. 7298. They seem lowest in 1839 — can you assign a reason ? — I would assign political influence. The Chartists had subscriptions among themselves, which absorbed the money that might have been deposited. 7299. Did that diminish their resources ? — I should think greatly. 7300. Was there so great an increase of political influences, as to account for the very great difference between the 489 in 1836, and 111 in 1839? — They make a pretext about their employers. They say they will not deposit lest their masters shoidd know that they do so, and reduce their wiiges ; which I consider a mere palliation. The real reason I consider to be politics. 7301. Can any individual ascertain their deposits? — Without leave from one or two of the directors, I cannot divulge the name of any one of the depositors. At page 8 of the Fifth Report, you will see some remarks in connexion with this subject : — " The only exception, if it may be so characterized, to such favourable returns, comes from an early and respectable receiver in a manufacturing district, who has, from first to last, notwithstanding his present complaints, transmitted a very considerable amount of depositors' money to tills bank. ' The agency here,' he remarks, ' has done but little compared with what it might have done. The same feeling is here that unfortunately exists in so many other places, — the dread that employers become acquainted with individual savings. I have done what I could to remove this groundless impression, but have hitherto failed of the desired success.' Here it is proper to observe, however, that every one of your bank's annual reports has furnished distinct evidence of creditable exceptions to this feeling of jealousy. Your com- mittee trust that time ^t11 dispel the illusion ; for the axiom is evident, that the interest of the master is identical with the industry and economy of the servant. It were ungenerous, besides, to suppose that the example of ten thousand prudent depositors belonging to other sections of industrious labour, will be utterly thrown away on the more reflecting and judicious portion of our numerous factory operatives. If they dislike confiding their money to a receiving agent Avho may happen to stand deservedly high in the estimation of their and his employer, let them form provident associations among themselves, as recommended in your committee's Third Annual Report. If that simple plan is found suitable, why not come to the head office at once with their deposits ? Such is the strictness of the bank's rule on the point in question, that the divulging of depositors' confidence by any person employed in the office, would assuredly be visited with very severe displeasure." 7302. Have you a list of the friendly societies and associations ?— There is a good number of little associations, with which many join themselves. We have a great number of provident associations, consisting of people that invest smaU sums. One pass-book sen-es for the whole. Fifty people, for instance, join together, like a little joint-stock company. 7303. Are these yearly associations ?— Yearly associations. They draw out at the end of the year. They have a great desire to appear respectable at their first deposit. 7304. Are these friendly societies refeiTcd to in your report ? — Yes ; friendly societies properly so called, are those which are certified by the justices of the peace ; but the number of these with us, as yet, is not great. 7305. Do you know the number of members in these ? — No ; more or fewer as the case may be. They appoint a secretary and treasurer. They take sums which would not be taken in a bank — say, 3d. 3 G m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFOEE THE Exaniinntions. Glasgow. Mr K. Watson. 17 Ainil 1843. 7306. And at the end of the yeai- ? — They get piincipal and interest and divide the money. 7307. But are chaiitablc societies stated here as distinct from saving societies? — Yes. Of the former class are the benevolent and clothing societies, &c. There is a number of such connected with the parish of St John's, and others of the more populous parishes. 7308. And the friendly societies, what is their general natiu-e ? — They support their mem- bers in sickness ; there is a variety of societies which come mider the same description. 7309. Any for old age ?— Yes. 7310. Any for widowhood ? — They are more rare; but I believe there are one or two of these. D. Hope, Esq. David Hope, Esq., City Councillor, Examined : — 7311. You are treasurer of the ftmd raised for the relief of the unemployed operatives? — Yes. I have been treasurer since May last, when I was appointed in my absence at a public meeting. 7312. Can you state any circumstances with respect to the number employed, the fund raised, and how it is raised ? — My more immediate duty was just to collect the money sub- scribed, and give it out according as it was required ; in paying for work, or in charity allow- ances ; or anything of that kind, which was decided on by the finance committee. 7313. Can you give a statement of the money subscribed and the money expended ? — Yes ; up to this moment about 12,050^. altogether has been subscribed since the middle of May last, — a period of eleven months; Indeed, the greater part was subscribed for and got in within the first four months. Some subscribers were then out of town, and they have given latterly. 7314. Is the simi nearly expended ? — Yes ; it is very nearly. The amount is more than expended ; but then we hold some stock of goods which is not yet realised, and on which we borrowed money. 7315. "WTiat is the money that has been expended altogether ? — About 17,800/. alto- gether. 7316. ^Tiat was the pm-pose of the joint-committee? — After we had nearly got the old machinery brought to a close, and most of the workers dismissed ; in the month of January a scarcity of labour again arose ; the times got worse ; weavers were getting out of work, and the labourers who had work for a time came back upon us. "VVe were obUged to renew the plan to a smaller extent ; and as some little time elapsed betwixt and the former working, it was thought proper to keep distinct the transactions of each. The town's hospital gave 500/., the old committee gave 500/., and there were also some small sub- ficriptions. 7317. To what was this fund given by the joint-committee applicable? — To procure work, and secure provisions for a number of women who had fallen down. The case was rather different from the former. We had a good many women applying. We gave them jneal and soup. Many of the men got work also ; but labour is very scarce, and we are losing by what we have undertaken. 7318. Docs tli€ original committee continue to any extent? — No; it is neaily extinct in its operations. 7319. Is the joint-committee still going on ? — ^Yes. There are still 350 labourers on the list; and about 140 or 150 women who are getting charity, chiefly in provisions. 7320. How have they raised money beyond the 12,050/. you mentioned ? — We borrowed money on the manufactured goods. 7321. What is the amount paid to the joint-committee ? — ^I mentioned 500/. the original committee gave, and the town's hospital gave other 500/. 7322. There are 800/. called donations from public bodies? — The town council, the trades' house, the banks, and other corporations. 7323. 3000/. borrowed from Fleming and Hope, what is that? — A loan to the first committee, fi-om his house. 7324. Then you are still 1400/. behind hand so far as the subscriptions go? — Yes, apparently ; but of course, we can pay the debt. We expect to have about 1800/. over, ultimately. 7325. Including the advance by Fleming and Hope ? — ^Yes ; when we get quit of the broken stones. The manufactured goods are all sold, Avhich, with the stones, we can pay Fleming and Hope, and expect to have this over. If the stones don't sell this year, they will not be worth near so much money next year. 7326. What are wo^'cn goods ? — Jaconets — a very thin muslin, for the India trade. 7327. Are there any manufactories for such goods ? — Yes. 7328. Were they thriving ? — They are not thriving at present, but still they were not very well pleased with us, and some demurred to give subscriptions. But this is not a description of goods made by the general trade. They were taken so as to interfere as httle as possible with the general makers. 7329. Do you think there were many persons who would be out of employment at any rate that applied for relief to the relief committee ? — There were a good many to whom we gave work, that would have, I believe, been on us in the best of times. 7330. "Wliat proportion ? — Probably from one-third to one-foiui;h. [The witness then put in the following abstract of the affairs of the imemployed, from May 1842 to April POOE LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 411 ABSTRACT of the AFFAIRS of the UNEMPLOYED, from May 1842 to AprQ 1843. Church and chapel collections, Donations from public bodies, Public subscriptions, ... .... Private donations, from workers, benefits, bazaars, &c. Received for labour in various diggings, &c., to date, ... Received for implements sold, small discounts, and bank interest. Received for broken metal, limestone, &c., to date. Received for jaconets sold and paid, to date, May 1842 Exaininatlont. Glasgow, L.13o2 10 D. Hope, Esq, 17 April 1843. 880 9472 14 4 301 11 L.12,006 15 1202 1 4 9 26 15 954 9 3 2216 14 Borrowed from Messrs Fleming and Hope, Glasgow, L.16,406 15 3000 Disbursements. Establishment expenses, ... ... ... ... L.494 12 8 Amount expended for Calton soup-kitchen, ... 537 15 10 Amount expended for night asylum ditto, ... ... 2471 16 11 Amount paid for various kinds of implements repairing, &c., 565 Amount paid for aU kinds of labour (weaving, &c.), ,.. 6326 18 8 General charges, stationery, advertising, coach hire, &c., 486 8 1 Amount paid for cotton yam, heddles, reeds, &c., 3602 15 2 Amount paid contractors for road metal, cartage, &c., 2581 18 Wright work, building sheds, and various jobbings, 255 15 Donation to the joint committee for the unemployed, 500 (N.B. L.1400 in bank.) 4 L.19,406 15 17823 4 L.1583 15 Stock. Jaconets, webs, and other weaving Implements, to sell, Broken metal to sell,* Debts. Due Fleming and Hope, (borrowed) Interest on borrowed money, say Accounts to pay, suppose about Apparent overplus. Glasgow, 17ih April 1843. L.2400 1600 4000 L.5583 15 L.3000 100 200 15 3300 15 L.2283 DAVID HOPE, Gratuitous Treasurer, 26, South Hanover Street, 7331. What of the operations of the joint committee? — Their operations are on a much less scale. We have expended of that 1000/. about 700/,, of which we get back 250/. or 300/. from the proprietors of the ground. We are losing about 30 per cent, in all our undertakings, perhaps one-third. However careful we are, we lose about 33^ per cent. But that kind of labour — digging— is much more pleasant, as It does not interfere so much with the labour of other classes ; because a great many gentlemen have got gi'ound cut by us, who were not in want of it for a long time to come. Therefore it has not so much inter- fered with those who have regular employment. Mr William Robertson, Collector of Rates in the Barony Parish, Examined : — 7332. You are collector of rates in the Barony parish ? — Yes. 7333. How long have you been in that situation ? — Since 1826. 7334. By what rule is the assessment levied ? — According to rental — one-half on the land- lord, and the other half on the tenant. 7335. Vfho are exempted? — All under 71. 7336. Is there any difficulty In levying it ? — Not particularly. 7337. Is it necessary to prosecute ? — A few ; probably 300 or 400. They are generally on the decrease. Mr Bobertson. If not Bold this yejir, will produce much less next season ; perhaps 25 per cent. less. 411 :minutes of evidence taken before tiie ExMninations. Glasgow. Mr Riihertson. 17 April 1343. 7338. Has the rate of assessment been Increased of late? — It has been Increased this year from 4 to 5^ per cent. 7339. Was there ever a levy on means and substance ? — Not that I am aware. 7340. Was that mode of levying it ever sanctioned by the Court of Session? — I am not aware that it has. 7341. How long is it since the assessment was first levied? — Since 1811. 7342. There is no poorhouse or hospital for the reception of paupers ? — None. 7343. Can you give the number of those exempted yearly ? — No, I have not got a note of them. 7344. How long has that exemption in favour of the lower class of householders existed ? — For the last eight or ten years, those under 11. have been exempted, and always those under bl. 1Mb. Are there any exempted above 7/.? — None, except with a line showing they are unable to pay. 7346. Have you a note of those? — No. 7347. Was it found that the assessment of 5^. tenants was too severe ? — Yes. 7348. They could not pay? — They could not pay generally. 7349. What was the total amount received from the assessment during last year?- 6734/. 7350. The amount expended ? — I have no note of that. It does not come under department. 7351. That money is applied in every part of the Barony parish, including the Barony proper and the Calton ? — Yes. 7352. Have you any further information to give us ? — No. All the rate-payers are 6850, including 620 landlords, whose properties are tenanted under 11. 7353. Have you any complaints with regard to the mode of levying the assessment ? — No. The only source of complaint is from widows, lodging-house keepers, who, however, are ex- empted on giving proper lines. 7354. Who grants such a line ? — GeneraUy the clergyman, or an elder, or any respectable rate-payer. 7355. There must be about 14,000 householders who are not assessed ? — Yes, here is a classification of Bridgeton: 613 are under 3/., 492 at 3/., 1343 between U. and 5/., and all above 5/. are classified together. my Mr Mackllan. Archibald Maclellan, Esq., Examined : — 7356. Don't you take the management of the funds of the trades' house? — I am a manager of the trades' house, but I am not the direct custodier of the funds. I can, how- ever, answer any questions you may put with rcgai'd to their amount or application. 7357. What we desire to know is, to what extent that institution keeps the poor off" the general poor fund ?• — The trades represent fora-tecn different incoi-porate bodies, each having their own poor rolls and their own funds, some of them large, some of them trifling. The trades' house is managed by itself; and upon the roll they have about eighty people to whom they give from 81. to 101. per annum on the average. 7358. What is the qualification for admission ? — Their qualification must be membership with one of these fourteen incorporations. 7359. Then the funds you require would be 800/. a year ? — Oh, double that ; that is only one mode of disbursing. We have a school for the children of freemen, which costs 300/. a year. It is a free school, where the children are gratuitously taught. 7360. They are not boarded ? — No, they reside with their parents. They are neither boarded nor clothed. They get education which costs the trades' house about 13b. a quarter. 7361. Do the persons who are on the trades' house receive any relief from the general funds of the poor ? — No, they are people who would consider it degrading. Their circum- stances have been better than those of ordinary artizans. 7362. Do you think they relieve the poor funds ?— Certainly they do. Of course, when 800/. from one institution is given to these people, it must so fur relieve the poor funds from dalms. 7363. Do you think, if they were not relieved, they would go to the poorhouse ? — I have no doubt they would. They are people aged and infirm. 7364. AVIth probably very little other means of support? — Very little. There are some females wlio have 25/. a year ; but these are an exception. Then some of the incorporations, with a large stock, give sums even larger — occasionally to the same people ; so that one of our decayed members may hare an allowance— say from the incorjioratlon of maltmcn — of 25/. from the trades' house too. They are thus pretty comfortable. 7365. Have most of these incorT)orations schools also ? — Oidy one— the fleshers. It an old school ; It has existed for half a century. 7366. Do you think the operation of any of those charities tends to diminish the exertions of individual industry ? — I do not tliink they do. I think the recipients are all really in cir- cumstances to demand a supply. 7367. But might they not have exerted themselves if they had not had that supply ? — The sum is so small, it does not tend to lessen their industry when they are cajniblc of ex- is POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 413 erting it. I think the money expended in this way by the two great incorporations of the merchants and trades houses, is not less than 5000^. per annum ; and is distributed to objects who fairly merit and require it. 7368. Do you tliink that to any extent the effect is to prevent relations from assisting each other ? — It might to some extent ; but it does not bear harder on this point than others. 73G9. But what have you observed yourself?—! cannot say that I have observed that such aid lessens the bonds of relationship. 7370. Do you find that the poor do not assist each other less on account of these funds ? — I don't think that it operates at all upon these people. 7371. They seem a different class of people ?— Yes ; tradesmen generally who have been in good circumstances. 7372. Do you know the amount of funds at the disposal of the incorporations, indepen- dently of the trades' house ? — Some of them have 5001. or 750^, per annum. Others have little to spare — some not 501. They may vary from 501. to 500^. 7373. \^1iat is the form of admission into the trades' schools ?— An application to the directors. The form is a mere letter to the convener. 7374. Are the numbers limited ? — To 250. K there are ten or twelve more applications than vacancies, we take them in. 7375. In point of fact, have you more applications than you have vacancies ? — Yes ; but we are anxious to take them in. 7376. What is the education ?— A perfect English and grammar education- — the ordinary branches of a good education. Two years ago we established a female school, where 50 or (iO female children are educated. In addition to what I have stated, they teach the boys and girls geography, and a little French also. 7377. Mathematics? — Not so abstruse a branch. 7378. But book-keeping? — Yes: we have them under the surveillance of the established clergy. Mr Ritchie, our late head teacher, was a licentiate of the Church of Scotland. We make it, by reading the bible and otherwise, as much as possible a religious education. 7379. The members whose children have the privilege of admission are burgesses ? — They are burgesses. Preparatory to their being in any incorporation, they must be free of the city. 7380. How is that freedom obtained ? — An application is made to the dean of guild, or to the extractor's court, who gives either a merchant's ticket or a trades'. The merchants' is 10/., the trades' 81. ; and it is optional to take the one or the other. 7381. The consequence is, that those who are members of those incorporations must be in good circumstances — of the wealthier classes ?— ^Every person is of necessity a burgess who carries on business in Glasgow. 7382. Therefore they are not likely to be influenced by the same circumstances which exercise an influence over the lower class of workmen ? — Certainly not. But there is a moral effect. When a number of respectable members, being decayed, are kept by these institu- tions, it has a beneficial effect on the community generally, 7383. And you have benefit from the schools ? — We certainly have. 7384. Are you acquainted with the state of the poor in Glasgow ? — I have for twenty- one years had occasion to be mixed up with the direction of those matters. 7385. Do you still continue to take a charge ? — Not now. 7386. Within the last two or three years ? — Yes. 7387. Are the funds raised there and distributed, sufficient for keejiing the poor in a suf- ficiently good state ? — The allowance made to the poor is too small. 7388. Is there any difference made among different individuals who receive outdoor re- lief ?_Ye8. 7389. Is there any difference made betwixt Irish and Scotch, or Protestant and Catholic ? — I don't think there is. I don't think partiality is exercised by the gentlemen of the town's hospital if the parties have a legal residence — -a consideration indejjcndent of theii religion. 7390. Have you heard objections raised on that subject ? — No ; I cannot charge my memory that I have. I never heard a comj)lalnt or charge against the dii'ectors for having given a preference either to our own local folk or to the Chiu'ch of England, 7391. Or Roman Catholic ?— No. 7392. Are you acquainted with the management of the poor by the kirk-session ?-^Not so intimately as with the town hospital. The kirk-session is the initiatory place. When the cases are too heavy they are draughted into the town hospital, where the weekly com- mittee investigate them and give a larger sum. 7393. Do you think the Catholics in the town hospital are allowed to attend the Catholic chapel ? — I think they were. 7394. There is no difficulty ?— I don't think so ; and I am sure the religious feelings of the inmates are respected. 7395. Do you not recollect any application being made from a priest on that subject ?— Not when I was a director. 7396. Do you think the poor have fallen into greater destitution than ten or fifteen years ago ? — I always thought the allowances too little ; but I don't think, looking at the price of provisions, that they are worse off than they were ten or fifteen years ago, 7397. Are they not better? — Yes. 7398. The price of provisions is lowered ? — Yes, 7399. Do you mean to say the allowances are too small, taking into account the assistance Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Maclellan. 17 April 1843. 414 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAXEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Maclellan. J 7 April 1843. they get from other quarters ? — Each individual case would require explanation, or must be investiffiited. 7400. Do you think the allowance too small, taking into account what they receive from private charity, or other sources ? — Private charity, in a mercantile community such as oiu-g, cannot be counted very much upon. By the time an old woman comes to be sixty years of age, she may have several house doors where she gets something ; but I should think the main-stay of such a person woidd be what she gets from the town hospital. 7401. Suppose a staff of elders and deacons, and the distribution of relief entrusted to them, would you not think that the wants of the poor would thereby be sufficiently sup- plied ? — I have my doubts. The late Mr Andrew Templeton and I went over this subject with Dr Chalmers. We threw out several objections to the system in the parish of St John's, which he did not relish very much. But you are aware that the plan of Dr Chalmers did not prove ultimately effectual. 7402. The population of St John's had risen from 8000 to 13,000 ? — Yes ; I could account for the continuance of the system under Dr Chalmers and Dr M'Farlan, by the influence of Dr Chalmers, and the powerful hold of Dr M'Farlan on our community. But it con- sists with my knowledge, that the agency did become tired and worn out — that the pressure was too much for the deacons. 7403. Do you think, that Avith an efficient agency such a system might supersede pauper- ism ? — I don't think in a selfish mercantile commimity you ever will get a voluntary agency which wiU supersede pauperism. 7404. Suppose you had the agency, how is it to be applied ? — In the way of interesting the wealthier families in the condition of the poor. Then I am afraid the contributions obtained through this agency would be those of truly benevolent people only whose purses are perpetually open to every good thing. But if such a system were practicable, it would be highly inju- rious to bring it into operation, for not half of those truly able to contribute would be got at. 7405. Have you anything to state with regard to the fvlteration of the law in the mode of assessment ? — I was concerned in that. I endeavoured to procure a continuance of what had previously existed. 7406. You did not want the change ? — I did not want the change. 7407. What was yoiu" great objection to the change ? — Wliy, that it laid the support of the poor solely on house property, and it freed capital which amounted to 5,000,000/. from the operation of the poor rates altogether. 7408. Is there still a gi-eat objection to it? — Among the owners of house property and the shop-keeping class, and among those who pay it, with very few exceptions. 7409. According to your view, there is a considerable degree of dissatisfaction existing on the subject? — A very serious deterioration has taken place in the house property of Glasgow. It was stated by Provost Mills and Mr Hutchinson, that the tax would not rise above 3^ per cent., but at present it is 6 per cent. I have no doubt, if the amount of allowance were raised to an adequate extent, according to the principle proposed by the town hospital, the assessment would be raised to 10 per cent, on house property. The heritable property of Glasgow before only paid its proportion with the means and substance of the city. 74i0. The assessment is levied in the Barony parish on rental — is there not the same objection there ? — Not so much as in the city. The people who reside in the Barony are idl wealthy people, who know they get very cheaply off. They pay there on the whole assess- ment, if the house is their ovm, and the half if they rent it. 7411. In short, it is not a parallel case exactly? — No. The Barony is an immensely large agricidtural parish. Portions of it are municipal or civic ; but agricidtm-e is the principal characteristic of that parish. 7412. Was it not found very difficidt to ascertain the means and substance ? — No, it was not. I sat as an assessor, and we had not above a dozen appeals against the valuation we made. 7413. Do you think you made a near approximation? — Why, I am sure we made a very liberal one, and were very far witliln the mark. 7414. Do you think that practically it was workable ? — I have no hesitation in answeiing most decidedly it was. It Is only by resorting to such a system that, in a commercial com- munity as this, you are able to approach it. 7415. Is it necessary to resort to legal proceedings to recover the tax from those who are now charged ? — I believe It is. 7416. More or less than before? — I coidd not exactly speak as to tliat; but I have heard more of it now. But the constituency who pay are trebled. Formerly the i-ate-payers were 3200 or 3300, now they are up to 13,000 or 14,000. Now they have gone down to a class who, we thought, ought not to have paid. 7417. Was there a warrant In law to exempt them? — It was conventional. We were instnictcd to exempt those under a certain sum — 300Z. Perhaps a special case would show the effect of the change. The manufacturing firm of James Ilutclunson and Co., one of the great promoters of the change — but I don't attribute to him any personal feeling, for he is a man of great honour and integrity — that firm formerly paid 84/., whereas the assessment at 5 per cent, made them pay 4/. 10s. ; and In the case of Lord Provost MUls, Avho had for- merly 11/. 13s. of poor-rates, his assessment was diminished to a few shillings. 7418. Has it not been stated, that the tendency was to lead persons of large property to leave the city, and reside wliere they were rated according to the rental ? — It lias been stilted so ; and we have one or two Instances of wealthy people who had made money In Glasgow, and who left it to avoid the poor rates ; but the general mass of our merchants would do no such thing. Since the change took place, it has been held out by those who POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 415 promoted the change, that, those people would return, and the property of the city be bene- fited. I have some property at the Exchange ; but I find the property not one jot unproved. Peoi>le have removed thcu- business places to the west end fijr convenience. 7419. What was the great object of the change? — It was, so far, a personal one with these wealthy people, that they miglit rid themselves of a tax for which they paid 50/. or 80/. a year. But the argument made use of by the town-council was, that the system was 80 inquisitorial and conjectural, that it could not be maintained. 7420. You thought, being an assessor, that it coidd be maintained ? — I thought that means might be tf&en to retain the Scottish national law in Glasgow, by adopting the machinery of the assessed taxes, — sending round blank schedules ; and if the inspectors Avere to make surcharges (giving them the power to do so, if necessary), in that way putting it to the honour of ovu- merchants ; then the people we would decidedly relieve are the lodo-in"--house peoiJe, and those of the 13,000, whom I declared before, as a sworn assessor, I was not able to assess at all. 7421. What is the value of the property at present assessed? — The produce of the rental of the city of Glasgow proper is 400,000/. 7422. What was the amount at which exemptions were given under the old system ? — We were instructed not to take those who had under 300/. of means and substance. I believe the magistrates, in the last year of the old system, went as low as 100/. 7423. What was the rate of tax under the old system ? — About 5 per cent. 7424. AVhen the old system was in operation, and you had the assessment on means and substance, did you take into view the property which those liable had in the Barony, and reckon it as part of the means and substance ? — No. We made a proportionate allowance for such cases. The principle of the Scottish law, we believed, was, that where a person resided there his property ought to be assessed ; or, on application by the party, if he thought himself aggrieved, we made a deduction, and made the proper allowance. We threw the assessment on two-fifths of what we considered the real means and substance. If we knew these gentlemen were carrying on a large and profitable business, we ascertained, as nearly as we could, what was their substance. But oflF that we first took two-fifths, and then assessed on the remaining three-fifths. 7425. You said you considered the new system a hardship to the tenants ? — Yes. 7426. Won't they pay so much less rent? — No. In certain situations in the town, shops and dwelling-houses are more easily to be had ; and they may make a bargain. But in the western parts of the town it is not so. I never had an abatement sought there for dimi- nishing their rates. 7427. Then in the western parts there is so much demand? — Yes. 7428. Then the rents are greater? — Yes. There is another very great inconvenience. The property is not in the hands of the ostensible holder, but in the hands of those who have bonds over it. The holder is a mere factor for the others. The house property pays the whole tax. We have, in the city of Glasgow, the River Trust revenue, — which, I think, ought to be subjected to poor-rates, — amounting to a sum averaging 40,000/. a year. Then there are the Gas and Water Companies. There is no property, in such cases, except their works ; but their stock consists of absolute money, — all personal. 50,000/. a year of profitable operations are carried on by them, and ought to be assessed. And so with joint-stock companies. If all these immense resources were taken in on the prin- ciple of making property, both real and personal, pay rates, then there would be a mere trifle to each. 7429. Could you say whether the funds arising from the River Trust would not, properly speaking, be assessed for in the parishes through which the river passes ? — The great mass of dues is leviable in the harbour of Glasgow. A very small portion is levied at places under Glasgow. The revenue got down the river would be applicable to the poor rates of that particular locality. 40,000/. would accrue to the city of Glasgow. 7430. And then you consider all the great public bodies should pay poor rates ? — The principle is that property of every description should pay. 7431. In short, you woidd revert to the old practice ? — Revert to the old practice ; but by sending schedules to do away with its obnoxious features. 7432. All you want is an improvement of the old system ? — An improvement of the old system. And if that were adopted, I know it is consistent with Dr M'Farlan's know- ledge of the city that we should have no difficulty in giving any reasonable increase of allow- ance to the paupers. 7433. You stated, some time ago, that you had reason to be satisfied with the administi-a- tion of the trades' charity, both for decayed members and the purposes of education : making due allowance for circumstances, are you equally well satisfied with the habits of the ordi- nary paupers ?- -It is rather a difficult question to answer. The city of Glasgow is not one of the best nor one of the worst. The paupers are not the worst, but they are of course much beneath the average of the working classes. 7434. You have already stated one means of increasing the comfort of the poor — would you advance their allowances ?— Yes. 7435. Does anything else occur to you for the improvement of their condition ? — To strike at the root of the evil an endeavour should be made to provide religious education for such a community as this. They must be taken up from infancy. Pauperism would be prevented by inculcating the principles of a good education, and by particularly grounding such instrac- tion on a religious education. 7436. Are you satisfied with the provoslon now made for the moral and religious education of the poorer classes in Glasgow ? — Na Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Maclellan. 17 April 1843. 416 lUCSrUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Maclellan. 17 April 1843. 7437. Do you conceive that the present mode of administering the poor funds, having re- spect to education as well as to the support of the paupers, is calculated to produce the best moral effect ? — No ; it is quite insufficient as an engine for the prevention of pauperism. 7438. Have you any suggestions to make for improvements in order to cut off pauperism at its source ? — I would extend the general education of the working classes. I would bestow much more means and pains than are given in the sessional schools. But I think the prin- ciple of these would do to engraft what is much more substantial upon. 7439. How would you propose to provide for this ? — I would make provision from the poor rates. It is a legitimate application of the funds ; for the tendency would be to check pauperism ultimately. 7440. And what means would you have for supporting the children who might attend those schools ? — There would be no difficulty with regard to some ; but there is a difficulty when they are sent so soon into factories — sent by their parents from their own fire-sides. I have no objection to a compulsory obligation, that they should be sent to the establish- ment. 7441. The difficulty you refer to is that of parents maintaining their children, and the anxiety to have them make something for themselves ? — No doubt of it. 7442. Then, if there could be connected with the schools something like a soup-kitchen, might not that difficulty be obviated ? — What I do think prudent and proper is that they should not be removed from the domiciles of their parents. 7443. I don't mean they should be removed from the domiciles of their parents, but pro- vided with food ?— There is a danger you might go too far. You might lessen the obliga- tion on the part of parents to support their families. There is room for making the experi- ment in Glasgow to some extent. But dealing with the question generally, from the im- tation consequent on the strikes, by which we have been disorganised, and the folly and idleness which have been the accompaniments and results, it is a difficult matter to know how to manage the working classes. 7444. Have you any idea that a salutary change brought about, imless education, by some machinery or other, shall be made effectual with reference to all classes ? — Why, certainly, I think it a great instrument ; and it ought to be zealously set about. And, considering the relation of workman to master, and the situation of society, it may be a question whether the agitation to which these people have been so enormously given for the last ten years, might not be checked, either by the re-enactment of the combination laws or by some other means, so that they might learn to know their own place. 7445. Have not many of the working classes become aware of the error of combinations ? — Yes ; but it is impossible to check the evil. We have great nurseries for these. 7446. And have not the other trades abandoned such combinations ? — ^Yes, but they are still abundant. 7447. Were they more pertinacious in maintaining them before these laws were repealed, or after ? — It does not consist with my experience that they were ; and I beUeve in this part of the country such has not been the case. 7448. Do you think that, if proper care were taken of the education of the children, this would re-act favourably on the parents ? — There is no question of that. 7449. Would not, then, a good education given to the children, have the effect of pro- ducing more just views on the subjects to which you have referred, and, consequently, of rendering coercive measures unnecessary ? — It would have that effect to a very considerable extent. Still, if the bond could be united between master and sen'ant, it would be most desirable. It is altogether changed from my experience of what the working men were. 7450. Do you consider that the dissenters are fairly and properly represented in the management of the town's hospital? — Yes; I do think they are at present; and I don't think there ever was a time when they were not so. I sat with some of the most eminent dissenters as directors. I don't think there is any difference of churchman and dissenter in the representation of the town's hospital. I recollect Mr Hood applying to me once, and stating that one of Mr Dick's congregation had not so large an allowance as she ought. But he did not make out a case of partiality. It had not been decreased in consequence of her being a dissenter. 7451. Did you state whether they had a sufficient share of representation? — ^Yes; I am perfectly sure they have. The trades send representatives, and three-fourths of them are dissenters. The town-council contains a majority of dissenters. The church portion are all, of course, attached to the Establishment ; but of the lay members of the town's hospitid two-thirds are dissenters, or at least one half. 7452. Is there a great deal of Intemperance in Glasgow ? — A great deal. It is our crying vice. 7453. Did any mode of checking it ever suggest Itself to you — is the quantity of public houses too great ? — Yes ; I always thought so. One year I was instrumental in scoring out 250. 7454. Were they got rid of? — ^The majority of them. 7455. Do you attend the quarter-sessions ? — Not very regularly ; but I do occasionally. 745 (). Parties who have been refused by the magistrates, have received licenses after- wards ? — The magistrates have frequently complained of this ; but we are more strict than we were in the quarter-sessions. 7457. If the Ucensing were under proper control, would it be proper to effect a change as to the extent ? — Yes ; I think it would. Dr Clelland made out, that, for every twelve houses, there was a public house. But whether this was a correct statement or not, they might be decreased one-half with great benefit to the community. i POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 417 7458. Would not that produce an increase of profit to the remaining half ?-^No ; I think not. If proper restrictions were imposed, the police would look after them so as to make them shut in proper tune. 745!). Then there would be an easier superintendence ?— Yes ; and there would not be so frequent a temptation offered ; for a person seeing a public house at hand, goes into it. 7400. Should there be no appeal to the quarter-sessions ? — Certainly not. We are anxious that the appeal should be disallowed, and the magistrates have the sole jm-isdiction. 746L Within the city, and also the parliamentary boundary?— No interference with the magistrates within their own bounds. 7462. The suburbs of Glasgow are so much larger than the city ?— rPerhaps the suburban magistrates might take the management of the matter in their own districts ; or it might be given to the sheriff or the justices of the peace. 7463. You think raising the spirit license would have the effect of lowering the number of public bouses, and raising their respectability ?—rI think it WQuld, Exaiiiiiiations, Glasgow. Mr Maclellan 17 April 1H43. Mr M. M. Pattison, Examined s— ^ 7464. Have you turned your attention to the comparative fairness of the ancient mode of assessment in Glasgow and the present? — Yes ; and I hand in the subjoined statenjent as embracing my reasons for preferring the old : — STATEMENT (placed before the Committee of the House of Lords) showing the Amoitnts OF Assessments at present payable by the Members of the Town-Council of the City of Glasgow for the Poor, and what they will be charged with should the BUI they are at present forcing through Parliament become Jaw, Amount of Annual Gains Capital Poor Rates Rent of Premises Amounts to the Assessed. payable per Chargeable at parties by the at present. Police Books. S per cent. passing of the Bill. James Hutchison, of J. H. & Co. £18,000 £42 ) Graliani Hutcliison, of do., , , 12,000 28 V No. 1. Robert Hutchison, of do., , , 6.000 14 r £180 T £4 10 £70 10 £36,000 £84 William Mills late Provost, . , 5,000 11 13 4 14 T 7 11 6 4 J. and P. Hamilton, .... 20,000 46 13 4 77 10 P 3 17 6 42 15 10 James Dunlop, of Dunlop, Wilson & Co., 7,500 17 10 52 10 C 13 1 16 16 11 James Dunlop and Sons, , , 15,000 35 76 13 4 P 3 16 8 31 3 4 William Brown, ..... 10,000 23 6 8 174 12 4 P 8 14 7 14 12 1 John Lcadbctter, of J. L. & Co., 7,500 17 10 220 C 2 15 14 15 James Burn, of Burn, Martin & Co., 7,000 16 6 8 90 c 1 2 6 15 4 2 William Robertson, .... .'S.SOO 8 3 4 45 CP 1 2 G 7 10 James Brown, of Bennet, Brown & Co., 5,000 11 13 4 17 CT 4 3 11 9 1 John Neil, of Neil & Langlands, , 3,500 8 3 4 80 TC 2 6 3 4 Richard Kidston, of R. K. & Co., . | .lames Bogle, jun., of Bogle, Douglas c& Co., 4,000 9 6 8 74 warehouse 30 house CP 1 17 1 10 5 19 8 5,000 11 13 4 109 CT 1 7 10 6 4 James AA'ri)»ht, of do, do, do. William Wilson, 4,000 9 6 8 43 CT 11 8 15 8 2,500 5 16 8 80 T 2 3 16 8 Robert Fleming, . , . , . 4,500 10 10 160 T 8 2 10 Peter Gumming, . , , . . 3,500 8 3 4 130 T 3 5 4 18 4 David Hope, of Fleming & Hope, 3,000 7 55 CT 11 3 6 8 9 William Brodie, of W. B. & Co., 4,000 9 6 8 18 CT 4 6 9 2 2 John Mitchell, 5,000 11 13 4 30 P 1 10 10 3 4 James and William Campbell, 28,000 65 6 8 690 CP 34 10 .30 16 8 John Urc, 3,000 7 30 P 1 10 5 10 Robert Brand & Co., , , , , 7,000 16 6 8 100 T 2 10 13 16 8 John Small, 2,000 4 13 4 27 P 1 7 3 6 4 John Whitehead, .... 3,.500 8 3 4 20 T 10 7 13 4 Alexander Hastie, of R. H, & Co., 3,500 8 3 4 16 CT 4 7 19 4 James Turner, , , . , . 2,000 4 13 4 30 P 1 10 2 3 4 Robert M'Gavin, , , , . I 1,000 2 6 8 30 warehouse 34 coupling. T 1 10 16 8 £385 2 Off excess of Assessment that will be paid by Mr Johnston, of Johnston, Galbraitli and Co., over their present Assessment by tlie passing of the Bill, Alexander Johnston, of J. G. * Co., 30,000 46 13 4 1830 P 91 10 44 16 8 Annual saving to the Citj Council ors by the pa ssing of the Bi|l, • • £340 3 6 Those marked T arc Tenants, and only liable for one-half of the Assessment; those marked P are Proprietors, and chargeable with the wliole Assessment ; those marked C are Compfinies, and although the proprietors of the premises are taken as only cliargeable with one-half of the Assessment, the other half being payable by tlie other partner; C P are Companies and Proprietors ; C T Companies and Tenants, are only chargeable with one-fourth, the Landlord being liablo for the half, and a fourth by the other partners of the concern. Provost Dunlop, Bailies Small, Turner, Ure, and Wright, are proprietors of subjects within the Burgh, and will come to pay as Landlords under that head, but the great majority of the Councillors will be great yuiwrs by the njeasure, It is a glaring fact that the parties at present are not assessed fop above oflp./bi^rfA part of their capitali. M. M. PATTISON, Mr Pattison, 3 H 418 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow, 1 1th Marrh 1842. (iLAsoow. Sir, — I take the liberty of forwarding for your consideration, as Secretary of State for MrPattison ^^^ Home Department of her Majesty's Government, a statement showing the working of 17 Ai>iil 184J. the present system of poor laws in Scotland. When I inform \ou that the average payment to pauper families in Glasgow and the ad- joining parishes of Barony and (Jovan, does not exceed Is. 3d. per week, and that hun- dreds, even thousands, of starving objects are denied admittance to their poor rolls, you •will agree with me that it is high time for the legislature to interfere ; nor will any effectual remedy be applied until manufacturing and commercial capital and other descriptions of property within these bounds, amounting to between four and five millions sterling, at pre- sent exempted from assessment, come to pay their just proportion to the poor fund. In illustration of this it can be well attested, that the parties marked No. 1. in the en- closed list of poor rates payable by the town-councillors of Glasgow, are not assessed in proportion to the wealth they possess, to more than one-eighth the amount of persons who have their capital invested in house or land property ; while, were justice applied to all, these gentlemen, instead of as at present only paying in all from 15/. to 20/., poor rates would be assessed to the amount of from 260/. to 270/. per annum. Again, the gas and water companies (whose revenue undoubtedly is as tangible as house property), although deriving a revenue of from 50,COO/. to 60,000/. per annum from the in- habitants of Glasgow, only contribute a few pounds to the poor fund, while were they as- sessed in the same proportion as house and land property, they would pay from 1200/. to 1500/. per annum. Under the same just and equitable principle, the river trust revenue at present entirely exempted from poor rates, would pay 1000/. per annum ; and the other numerous wealthy corporations, in proportion to their revenues realized within the district. Until this, or a mode of assessment is applied for the collection of the poor rates in Scotland, similar to the sagacious and statesman-like measure proposed by the premier for the relief of the civil ex- penditure (which has met with the admiration of all just and sound thinking men), it will be quite impossible to realize sufficient funds for an adequate provision for the really de- serving and necessitous poor of Scotland. — I have the honour to remain, sir, with great consideration, your most obedient humble servant, M. M. Pattison. To Sir James Graham, Bart., Secretary of State for the Home Department of her Mujesti/s Government, London, To take another instance for the purpose of showing the injustice of the present mode, I shall suppose a landlord — a nominal landlord (for three-fourths of the house property in Glasgow has bonds over it to the extent of from two- thirds to three-fourths its value) — drawing 5000/. a year from rents within the burgh. Of the poor rate assessment at 5J per cent., one-half is payable by him, 137/. lOs. ; his tenant pays the other half — 137/. 10s. First, he comes to pay two-thirds of the rents for interest on the bonds, then he has fire insurances, 50,000?. at Is. 6d. with duty is 112/. 10s. ; lie has to pay for painting and paper- ing, and supporting the houses, 12.5/. ; then for the prisons and other incidents, 25/. ; so that the real amount he receives is 1404/., 3s. 4d., on which he pays 137/. 10s. poor rates, being about 10 per cent, on his income, while the Messrs Ilutchinsons, with a floating capi- tal of above 100,000/., only pay about 51. poor rates within the city, and some 14/. or 15/. on their mansions on Blythswood's grounds ; in all, less than 20/. per annum. 7465. Do you know any cases of individual hardship ? — Yes ; in the suburbs ; it is with the greatest difficulty parties can pay these taxes. They have introduced within the last few years a number of new taxes. They have put on taxes for the prisons — for building the court-houses — for the house of refuge. There are eight to ten taxes which to men with a rent of 20/. or 30/., is a great oppression. We cannot get our rents at all. This is in the royalty of Glasgow, 7466. We were speaking just now of the act for the city? — This property is in the city. Statement handed in by M. M. Pattison, showing the amoimt of poor rates that would have been derived in 1842 from the Glasgow water and gas companies and River Trust, had the amount of their collections been assessed at the same rate as lands and house property collections were within the royalty of Glasgow in 1842, viz. :— Amount of rates collected by the Glasgow water and gas companies in 1842, ... _ L.60,000 Amount of rates collected by the River Trust in 1842, ... ... 40,000 Amount of collections in 1842, L.100,000 100,000/. of collections assessed at 5^ per cent, is 5500/., poor rates from the above three sources alone. M. M. Pattison. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 419 Examination »• Mr David Stow, Examined : — Glasgow. Mr D. Stow. 7467. You are secretary of the normal seminary ? — Yes. 17 April n;43. 7468. For how many years have you been so? — From its commencement in 1827. 7469. You have likewise paid considerable attention to the education of the working- classes ? — Yes ; I have done so from being secretary of the normal seminary, and having a natural fancy that way. 7470. Were you not at one time an elder ? — I was a deacon in St John's parish for three years previous to Dr M'Farlan's induction. I have been an elder there for twenty years. 7471. Have you been in the custom of visiting the poor ? — Yes ; and as secretary to the local Sabbath school society of Glasgow, for many years I had occasion to visit the houses of many poor people in localizing the districts for those schools. 7472. So that in point of fact, you are acquainted with the condition of the poor in some five or six of the poorest parishes in Ghisgow ? — There are twelve parishes, and I have visited in eiffht of them. Since 181.3 — when I was first connected with the old man's friend so- ciety, I have been constantly among them less or more. 7473. State the number of pupils in the schools.'' — In the four model schools of the se- minary, there are 600 pupils of the ages of about three to fourteen years ; and the number of teachers under training varies from thirty to fifty. 7474. From what class are the pupils ? — From the poor and the working classes. In order to get the very poorest, we established one of our model schools in the Saltmarket, to ascertain the effect of training that population. And still, though the model schools are removed from that quarter, the children are drawn from the poor and working classes. 7475. Is it your opinion that one of the best means of checking pauperism would be to extend education in the city of Glasgow ? — I hold peculiar views on that point. What is called education, I think, would not do it ; but moral training would certainly do so ; provided the master trains as he ought to do. 7476. How is such a system formed ? — You form such a system by requiring that the master be the children's superintendent and companion, not merely in the covered school- room, but in the uncovered school or play-ground at their sports, and this moral training is based on religious and intellectual instruction. 7477. Independently of your own schools, are there any in Glasgow for moral training? • — There are several ; but the number of schools for moral training in England and else- where in Scotland is greater than in Glasgow. It so happens that they give larger salaries in England, and in some towns in Scotland ; and although here they were esta- blished as moral training schools, the masters have been taken away at higher salaries. One teacher, who was in one of these schools, went to Jamaica, with a salary of 300/. ; and several have gone to other quarters at from 80/. to 150/., and so on. Twenty-four schools have been established in Glasgow upon the principle of moral training, with play-grounds and galleries, fee. ; so that, on a day's notice,. they could be conducted on the system. But the mnsters since appointed not having been trained, know not how to manage. 7478. How many may remain ? — Not above one or two (on the training system), the others are simply teaching schools for the reasons mentioned. 7479. Do the children in your schools remain during the day to take their meals? — They generally take what is called their piece or luncheon. 7480. Do they bring their meals with them.? — Some of them do. Others get tlie master to bring in rolls and milk ; and the parents pay the master once a week. That is the case with a great many. A few go home. We don't make it a rule. But the anxiety to remain in school is so great, that they will not remove at mid-day if they can by any possibility remain. 7481. How do you account for that ? — Because it is a natural system. They get suf- ficient fresh air. The master is their companion. The system may be called exuberant ; but if they exceed bounds, then he controls them. Their misconduct is publicly noticed on the children's return to the school-gallery. As one proof of the great anxiety the chil- dren have to remain at school, I may mention one fact. We were anxious to employ some students who were under training, and we informed the children of the juvenile department, in which the ages are from seven to ten, if they chose to remain they would pay nothing, the object being to enable the students under training to exercise themselves, and to permit our regular teachers to get their vacation. Out of 180 children, 140 re- mained during the whole four weeks ; and we could not get them out. And when asked, — how comes this ? — Their answer was, — Oh, we get better fun at school than in the streets, besides our lessons ! 7482. Do you find any difficulty with the parents ? — In the first instance we had to bribe them by requiring them to pay no fees. Then we asked 2d. a week ; next 2s. a quarter, pay- able in advance ; and now we charge 3s. a quarter ; and it is perfectly crowded. The difficulty is to get admission, but that is not the sole reason. The payment is 3s. for everything — reading, writing, arithmetic, geography, science, bible training, grammar, &c. — which is lower I think than the charges in the parochial school. 7483. What do you mean by science ? — They get one lesson in science — such as on air, water, the barometer, the steam engine, the making of paper, &c. Every day through the year they get one point in science ; and in things suited to the common affairs of life. We give a lesson even on the proper way of mending a fire, — how to save the coal, and how to make a quick fire ; and scientifically whether they ought to pull down the window from the top or from the bottom in properly airing a room. Without occupying with each 420 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Exmiiiiiatious. lesson more than fifteen or twenty minutes, they carry with them an amount of practical Gi.Asoow. knowledge which must be valuable to them as mechanics or servants, as masters or mis- -, .^ 5. tresses. i't '\piill843. 7484. At what age do you communicate such instruction? — Less or more at every age, but from the age of nine to twelve they understand complex terms in botany. 7485. Really understand ? — We only give them what they seem capable of acquiring. This is favourable to religious instruction. There are a great many emblems in scripture, conveying truths and promises taken from natural imagery. And so far as these lessons are concerned, they are favourable to the understanding of such bible lessons as, " The right- eous shall flourish like the palm-tree ; he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon," &e. The natural science illustrates the moral lesson, and is made a handmaid to religious training, and is the basis on which moral training is founded. It is made the basis not only of moral training, but of correction on the development of any bad dispositions in the play-ground. And so by gradual advances — not by forcing, but by training according to circumstances, we find the children moulded in their manners and minds, religiously, morallj', and intel- lectually, in a manner which no teaching system does or can attain to. 7486. Even though in that teaching system there is religious iiistruction .' — Yes. The first hour is devoted exclusively to bible training, including a psalm, which they are not permitted to repeat without analysing ; then prayer ; then a selection is read from scrip- ture — on Mondays, miracles and parables — on Tuesdays, emblems — on Wednesdays, promises and prophecies — on Thursdays, something else — and so on in regular succession. But the great leading points are pictured out or made very plain. Then we exercise them on the previous lesson, and give a new one. On the system of the Scottish parochial schools that would be done, but we analyse or picture out, and make them understand more, for we have the aid of all the children of different grades of intellect and information in one gallery, on the principle of the sympathy of numbers ; the master being the trainer. 7487. Then you think it necessary to aid formal instruction by religious and moral train- ing ? — I think so. If I take the scripture, " Train up a child in the way he should go," it is not to train up his head merely ; but to train him up also physically, morally, and religi- ously ; and if a child is so trained under a competent master, that is fulfilling the divine command, and so we look for the promise. 7488. You have modes of correction ? — Yes ; but with an additional power which no parent possesses, — that is, the sympathy of numbers. It is the sympathy of numbers which brings Glasgow to be a terrific object to the state. Train Glasgow morally, and Glasgow by the sympathy of numbers will rise higher in a moral j)oint of view than is possible in a country village ; so you can carry morality to a higher point in a school, or at least by its assist- ance, than in any one family. 7489. Do you think that education without religious instruction would be mischievous? — Without religious instruction, it would be decidedly an evil, and in too many instances only furnish the means of working mischief. But with moral training, it would be fulfilling the divine command. You cannot train a bird to fly in a cage, or a racehorse to try his speed in a stable. Now, children in schools generally are too much like birds in cages and race- horses in stables. But if you make the schoolmaster the companion of the children, they are trained as they ought to be. It is the most expensive at first, but as a moral influence it is the cheapest in the end. 74!10. What is the eff"ect of these schools on those who are trained in them, — say as to beggars ? — Some two or three years ago, when some great folks honoured our institution by a visit. Sir Charles Ferguson asked the question, if we had observed the effect as to crime. As to crime we never thought of that. We had no doubt they would commit sin, but that they would commit crime never crossed our imaginations. But we made a very minute inquiry ; and to this day we have not been able to ascertain out of the thousands that have attended, that any one child had been taken before a magistrate. 7491. During how many years ? —During seven years over which our inquiry extended, not a single child who had been in the schools had been accused of crime, so far as we could learn. 7492. Did you pay attention to infant schools in connexion with the training system ? — We have had no infant schools beyond a year in Glasgow, except in Drygate. Ever since 1829 or 1830, the schools have been on the present training system. Our schools are not on the same system as those in England, though ours has been introduced there, and the first head master of the Home and Colonial Infant School Society was trained by us about seven years ago. As I observed, we never found any instances of crime; but we found as many as 100 grown up persons who had been trained at the school, of excellent moral character, and not one of them in poverty. Every one was, without exception, re- spectable. . 7493. Of the 100 ?— There was not one out of the number that was not so. 7494. You never discovered either a criminal or a pauper ? — Not one. We don't know that there arc paupers, or one that has even asked a penny in the way of charity. But we know 100 who came within our own personal observation, who were most respectable and well dressed. 749.5. And the 1 00 were not taken by selection ? — It merely happened, that, in going through and making our inquiries, the number mounted up to 100 or thereabouts. If I were to say 90 or 110, it would be too particular; but to the extent of 100 presented themselves, who had been old pupils at the school, and who were most respectable. 7496. In one case after the other, you found this gratifying result ? — Yes. 7497. What was the great obstacle to planting similar schools in other parts of Glasgow ? POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 421 — Money — money. I told Sir James Graham (it was but a joke), that as government had Examinations. paid twenty millions for the emancipation of the slaves in the colonies, the cheapest mode Gr.Asoow. of benefiting the population at home, would be to find twenty millions for moral training. I „ - did not mean it seriously at the time ; but I have made the calculation, and it would ex- 17 April 1843. ceed twenty millions. 7498. You have no difficulty in getting the parents to send their children ? — No. 7499. Would you have the education gratis ? — No. If a private individual chose to pay for a poor child, we could not object. But it has a lowering effect, if the children are looked upon as paupers ; and we feel desirous to cherish as much as possible a principle of independence on christian principles, which is the only security we think we have for the working classes maintaining themselves by honest industry. But we have not been troubled with that matter. 7500. And you think the people put no value on what they get for nothing ? — If they don't pay, they don't value what they get. But still, when the education was gratuitous, they would not come till they found by experience that the system was truly valuable in improving the minds and habits of their children. At that period parents had a prejudice against a school in which the rod was not in use. We do correct them, but in a way con- sistent with the principles of moral sympathy. 7501. No striking .'' — No. A parent could not do without it. A parent has only to direct the conduct of one child of one age. But it is a different matter where, though there is one master, there are fifty who sympathize with each other ; the condemnation of the school is tremendous. And the idea of bringing out a boy before the school, causes the stoutest heart to cry most bitterly. 7502. What do you think might be the expense for all Glasgow of extending the system of moral training ? — In 1834, in a work on the subject of education and moral training, I published the amount. I found it a great deal, — 112,O0OA 7503. A year ? — Oh no. A sum calculated for the purchase of ground and erection of school-houses for one half of the population. 7504. For the city alone ? — For the city and suburbs. 7505. Do you consider the city inadequately supplied ? — It is very inadequately supplied in the sense which I attach to education. 7506. With what you consider proper education ? — I mean so. But the mere evidence of official persons going through, not intimately acquainted with the people, would not discover such a want as exists. We employ 600 hands in a factory, of these 200 are children. Most of these are from thirteen to sixteen. I took six of the normal teachers to the place, and appointed the foreman of each flat to assist, so that every child might be examined. They were asked to read a portion of a chapter in the gospel of John. Out of 198 examined that evening, I think there were seventy-eight that had not been taught at all. I remember about forty-nine could only read monosyllables. Questions were put as to the meaning of what they had read ; and there were only six out of the whole who understood a complete sentence. But nearly all of them said they had been at school — ■ some for a short time : — I was just there a fortnight — they would say. So that from the testimony of the parents, an official going round must insert nearly the whole number as educated. 7507. And do you ascribe that to the want of means, or of inclination, or of ability .'' — Both want of means and inclination ; but chiefly attributable to the fact that education as too frequently conducted, is little better than accumulation of sounds without any exer- cise of the understanding, and no moral training. .'\n old soldier who does not understand one rule of grammar, gets scholars because he teaches to read cheaper than the parochial schoolmaster. He teaches at Is. 6d. while the parochial master asks 2s. 6d. . 7508. You nmst be aware that a very formdiable objection to these schools of yours must be the expense — is there no means of limiting that expense, and yet conferring the benefit ? — The expense arises from this :— You require an uncovered school besides a covered one. The latter, perhaps, a somewhat larger room than is common. They paid 28s. per square yard in St Enoch's for two .sites, including play-grounds ; and in Chalmers' Street 15s. Then the school-houses must be very airy. It is chiefly the play-ground that occasions the additional expenses. At present half the children in Glasgow are taught generally in rooms. They are stuffed into places 12 or 14 feet square. The dimensions of our proper training schools are 46 by 26 and 14 feet ceiling ; and 100 by 50 for the play-ground. There are twenty-four schools built on that plan ; although not now taught on the training system. 7509. Has your institution been the means of raising the emoluments of the trainers you have sent out ? — Yes, we have raised their emoluments fully 25 to 30 per cent. 7510. The excellence of the schoolmasters is one cause of the difficulty of retaining your trainers in Glasgow ? — Yes, from the more lucrative situations offered them elsewhere. 7511. Would you require additional churches? — We would require a great many addi- tional churches. 7512. Could you find that what the children carried home to their parents at night had a favourable effect on the character of those parents ? — We found this had a very general effect. Many fathers who never opened their bible were led to do so when asked by the boy — I say, father, do come and read about Daniel — do you know he was put into a den of lions; &c. Sec. Then the father takes down the bible and reads. It has the effect very generally of causing them to respect sacred things ; and we know instances in which parents have been reproved by their children for swearing. 7513. Is not part of your system.to blend a part of the moral training of a day with the 422 MINUTES OF E^TDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, education given through that day ? — And every day. The Bible lessons are the basis of Glasoott. iijg conduct of the children, and of the master with the children. And these lessons are Mr D Stow referred to. Suppose two boys quarrelling, the master will probably say with Paul, 17 April IB4:5. " Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath." The boy feels condemned ; he hangs down his head, for the appeal is made to the school. The direct effect is infinitely greater than when reproof is administered by the schoolmaster alone. In that case the boy shuts his heart. But the boy's heart is not shut against his fellows. He must take for his correction the manifest displeasure of his fellows. Then again the rule is, — look at everything, and touch nothing. We have every year in play-grounds 200 children ; and so well do they observe the injunction, — " touch not, taste not, handle not," that strawberries ripen, and flowers blossom, and are never touched. 7514. In short, you blend religion with the whole day's work ? — Quite so. The training is based on religious instruction ; and in order to sustain the religious character of the schools, all the masters are members of the Established Church ; and the normal seminary is placed under the superintendence of the Presbytery of Glasgow. In 1836 we did so formally. The masters are of one religious body, while we take in children whatever they are, and all students properly introduced who desire to be trained. The rector and all the subordinate masters are members of the Established Church. And some dissenters say you would not know of what party they are. Only they must explain what is read in the Bible, and give the sense of Scripture, as it is palpably to be understood. 7515. In the scientific lecture, you illustrate the wisdom and goodness of God ? — Yes. Even if we give, for instance, the component parts of milk, the goodness of God in giving an article of food so adapted to our use is exhibited. It is the same about the rose ; for example, — suppose the lesson is from the words, " I am the rose of Sharon, and the lilly of the valley.'' 7516. Then instruction in religion is combined with instruction on natural objects ? — We endeavour to give the natural history of all the Bible lessons, so as to interest the children; and then we endeavour to draw the lesson itself. 7517. Your scientific lessons are more or less directly applied to secure a more perfect understanding of Scripture ? — So far as to enable them fully to apprehend the meaning and force of Scripture, and to regulate their conduct, and form correct habits of thought, feeling, and action. 7518. And the reflex operation of all this is upon the conduct, and feelings, and hearts of the children ? — That is hardly what we can expect to know ; but upon their outward conduct the effect appears. With regard to their spiritual state, except in a very few instances, we cannot venture to speak. 7519. I do not mean that education is grace ; but with respect to their outward con- duct ? — There is not any exception as to improvement. We never give them an article of clothing. Whoever comes feels that he must be cleanly, and if there is a single one with dirty hands, he is noticed in the presence of all. Next morning they come all clean. It is the sympathy of numbers that is the powerful principle. It is the sympathy of numbers that works evil in our wynds, and our allies, and our vennels ; and our object is to a[)ply the same principle to good. Though some individuals think that instruction is enough, — teaching without training. Dr Johnson says you cannot lecture a man into making a shoe. There is but one way. As a parent cannot be with his children all day, and they are therefore left to the training of the streets, what we want to do is to have such a system, as to make the master the moral trainer, and take the part of the parents ; so that when the children come home in the evening, they should return not injured, as uniformly they are by training in the streets, and should so far influence their parents at home, by ' the reflex operation of the moral training they receive in school. 7520. How long were you one of the deacons in St John's ? — Three vears previous to becoming an elder— 1819, 1820, 1821. 7521. How many families had you under you? — About 110. 7522. Had you any difilcuJty in the management ? — In the first instance I thought I should never be able to manage at all. But afterwards it was so easy that it became almost a sinecure. I may mention to you precisely the state of matters. The first week after it was announced that Dr Chalmers had appointed deacons, the poor people said — Oh, we shall be well cared for now. Literally a crowd of them came from atl parts of the district. A rule was laid down for all that we should never give a farthing without investigating the case. Many a time in the first instance, I was disposed to break through the rule : — " Oh, sir (they would say), but we are very ill off.'' " Well I shall call to-morrow morning." " Oh, we are in awful distress." " But it is the rule ;" and in the then depressed state of trade three-fourths did obtain relief, while some were deceptions. But a small sum from the public fund, and a trifle from my own pocket satisfied them ; and during the first month I was compelled to add only three to the paupers' list. Some of them were deceptions, but these were so dealt with, that at last few of that description came. Some having no claim but desirous of participating in the spoil when they asked their neighbours, " Have you been at the dea- con?" — And the answer might be, "Oh, ye needna gang — you will be found out, for he gives nothing till he inquires into the case." And so they did not call ; and eventually none but those who were really poor applied. I was not there four months till I could go through the duties very pleasantly, though they were overwhelming during the first fort- night. Afterwards an hour in a fortnight sufficed ; and for the last six months I did not require to pay a sixpence to occasional poor. 7523. You are a merchant in Glasgow ? — Yes. 7524. Did you exert yourself to find employment in Glasgow for persons who were out of POOR LAW INQUIRY COMIMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 423 employment? — Some I have prevented from becoming paupers by applying to my friends Examinations. for work. Glasgow. 7525. Do you know wby the system in St John's was discontinued ? — Simply, because the w . _ people would not believe that it was true. There is nobody knows so much about it as Dr 17 April isij. M'Farlan ; and he had the task of consolidating it after Dr Chalmers left. It might not do taking Dr M'Farlan's evidence from his official situation as a commissioner ; but he had the whole brunt upon his shoulders. I have no hesitation in saying there never was a more easily managed matter, so far as the deacons were concerned. I came at last to say that I could undertake the whole parish. 7526. When you became an elder, you had two districts, one as an elder, the other as a deacon ? — In one I was an elder. 7527. Were there any complaints of the poor not being provided for or attended to ? — No ; none of being neglected. All were attended to. Some might wish for more than they received. 7528. Did they seem grateful for the attention of the deacons? — That was what I was afraid of — that it would be repulsive. But they found it a kind Christian influence more than one of repulsion. 7529. Do you know the district now occupied by the church and parish ? — My elder's district was from Claythorn to Caltonmouth ; my deacon's district extended from Marshall Lane to Calton Mouth. 7530. And had you an opportunity of judging of the habits and condition of the people in the districts connected with St I^uke's Church ? — Yes ; I had from these circumstances. In 1829 and onwards, the whole of St Luke's was covered with Sabbath school teachers from my Sabbath school. There were thirteen or fourteen of my number went to St Luke's. After the establishment of the church, they formed themselves into a parochial society, and they had a week day training school. The master then is now minister of Strathaven (Mr Rankin.) His place was supplied by another teacher not instructed in the training system ; so it is not moral training that is now given. But the effect of the schools on the training system was so great, that it is stated in the police books, that crime has greatly diminished in that district by the united efforts of the parochial minister and the parochial agency. And I may mention also that on the side of the street opposite St John's, which is a suburb parish, I visited every family ; and on the other, the late Mr Falconer visited in like manner, which is in St John's. On the St John's side of the street there were just two children unable to read, and not at school ; whereas on the suburb side there were 123 imable to read. This was previous to the formation of St Luke's church. 7531. Have you any doubt, from your experience as a deacon, that had you given up your wliole time to it, you could have managed the parish ? — Perfectly easily. At the same time I could not manage so well as if you were to give fifty families to one indivi- dual. If you give him a limited number he becomes acquainted with all their circum- stances — he becomes intimate with them. He has a certain moral influence over them ; and in a case of great distress, he can, without injury or risk, give an extra sum. I have found that a pound given to a man whose wife was sick, saved 51. from the poor fund. They get some of their goods out of pawn. Now that can be done more judiciously by a deacon who has a small district than by one who has a large one. In the largo district my influence would be less. 7532. But you are speaking of the ordinary pauperism ? — Yes. If I were not cheated more than in my own district, I might overtake all Glasgow. But in a large district it is impossible for one with other avocations to arrive at a thorough knowledge of character, and there is not that acquaintanceship which is requisite. In my district, as a deacon I spent very little time — for the last six months not more than one hour in a month. 7533. But do you think it probable that cases may be neglected, or not sufficiently attended to ? — A case might be neglected. On the principle laid down, however, no case need be overlooked. I go on the principle that there is no end to the demand for money or feod. Every man will take all he can get on the average. For education I would endow to the extent of one-half or two-thirds ; and for Christian instruction, or the means taken to bring men under religious influences, I would give" a complete endowment. 7534. Do you think it would do if, in Glasgow, you were to dispense with asses.sment — could you depend on the collections ? — Let it be the average run of the poor, and I would undertake myself the poorest congregation in Glasgow, and pay the deficiency out of my own pocket. The fact is, the poor exhibit great delicacy in taking money when it comes from a private source ; — not so when from a public fund. The poor themselves receive more from their poor neighbours than they do, or ever can, from a public charity. 7535. Would you require the population in the parochial district to be so low as 2000 ? — I think so, perhaps not exceeding 1600. 753r). I mean with reference to the management of pauperism, would you take that amount? — You may manage, if you have the machinery, 12000 as easily as 2000. 7537. What would you suggest with regard to the expenses of churches .'' — Oh, Mr Collins is the man for that. But you can easily calculate : 2000 of a population ought to furnish 1400 church-going persons. A poor man would thus be able to take in his young family. Say a church contains 1000 sittings, it leaves a portion of the parish who might be dis-senters — one-fifth. I don't think a clergyman idle who has 2000 of a population under his care. 7538. With reference to money, you have stated what you would require for schools ; what would you require for churches ? — Mr Collins says you would need eighty additional churches. 424 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exainiiiatiuns. Ur.ASCiow. Ml- 1). Stow. 17 April 1843. 7539. Would you endow the churches ? — Yes. You would require to endow the churches, and the schools partially. I should prefer the schools being endowed one-half; but the churches wholly, — for this reason, that the minister is never so able to discharge his duty efficiently as when he has not a farthing to receive from his people. The poorest as well as the richest feel themselves honoured by his visits. But when he is to receive the seat-rents, I think it bad. They may imagine that he comes from self-interest. 7540. Notwithstanding the expense, it would be abundantly repaid by the effects on the commimityl — Four times over. Though they were to spend as much money as for the emancipation of the slaves, it would be repaid fourfold. 7541. Would you have government to interfere, or would yau provide by local taxa- tion ? — Oh, the government. Glasgow ought no more to support itself as a commercial place than Ayrshire itself as an agricultural county, The whole ought to pay for the interest of the whole. It is one fivraily, according to the principle of free trade. 7542. It is supposed to be very difficult to find an adequate staff of elders and deacons, —suppose you established the moral training first ?— I would establish moral training schools and churches simultaneously. It would not be difficult to find elders and deacons for the whole even now had we money to build churches. I know orie district in Glasgow where 300 families are given to one elder. As a man of business he can do nothing to it. If you give a man immersed in business forty or fifty families, he can judge of each case, and get acquainted with all in his district ; and there would be no difficulty in getting a sufficient number from any ordinary congregation which had been established a very few years, — there would be no difficulty whatever. Tuesday, 18th April 1843, MEMBERS PHESENT. Lord Belliaven, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M-P., James Campbell of Craigle, Esq,, Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev, Dr Patrick ISI'Farlan, and Rev, James Robertson, LORD BELHAVEN IN THE CHAIR. Dr Wardlaw. 18 April 1843. Jlev. Dr Ralph Wardlaw, Examined ;.^- 7543. Have you been many years a clergyman in Glasgow ? — -For forty years, on the 16th of February last. 7544. During that period have you paid much attention to the state of the poor In Glas- gow ? — I have not had much occasion to paj- great attention to the state of the poor in Glasgow, as we act on a principle of our own with regard to our own church and congre- gation supporting our own poor entirely, without reference to any public fund. 7545. Do you support your own poor from collections at the church door ? — Not at the church door. 7546. In what way then ? — We dispense the Lord's supper every Lord's day, and have a regular collection for our o^mi poor immediately after the communion service. That collec- tion goes to them entirely. 7547. And who takes the principal charge of distributing the fund thus realized? — The deacons of the church. 7548. Are the poor entli'cly supplied from that fund ? — Entirely supplied. I woidd make a distinction between the church and the congregation. When I speak of our own poor, I mean those who belong to the church propeiuy so called. We had at the time of the Re- ligious Instruction Commission, about 000 members, I have not numbered them recently, but should think they were not fewer now than (550, 7549. What constitutes membership in the church ? — Every individual who applies for admission to the church, converses In the first instance with myself; then two members of the church are appointed to converse with him also. Inquiry Is made with respect to his character, and If their report to the church, as well as my own, be favoxu-able, and other members know nothing against hhn, he is admitted into full communion. 7550. To whom do they report? — To the collective body of the church, as many as are assembled on the week-day evenings. You are aware I am a congregationalist — an inde- pendent in sentiment ; and our mode of conducting church government is very different from tliat of our presbyteriau brethren. 7551. What is the state of the poor belonging to the congregation ?— It varies according to the state of the times. We have sometimes a larger number of poor, and sometimes distressing circumstances, I should think we have not on an average more than more twenty who are regularly su])plied from the church funds. 7552. What is the amount of relief given from the fund?- clrcumstances, that I could not 8j)ccify a particular amount. 7553- Could you state the highest and the lowest ? — The deacons who take all the manage- -It varies so much according to I i POOR LAW INQUIRY CO^EVIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 425" ment In matters connected with the poor, are best able to give information on this point. We have an average of twenty poor ; and our fund averages 230/. a year. We have collec- tions at the church doors besides, but they go to general purposes — the support of the minister — tlie precenter — the beadle, &c. Our poor I'und is the fund wliich, as I mentioned, u collected after the celebration of the Lord's supper. 7554. The number of members is about 600? — About 650. 7555. Is that the same as the congregatioDj or is the congregation larger? — We have a congregation in all of from 1300 to 1400. 7556. The congregation is double the members of the church? — Double the members of the church, that is including all. 7557. The congregation is about equal to the members of the church ?— About equal to the members of the church. 7558. Do the congregation contribute to the fund for the poor ? — None of them. The congregation give to the collection at the church door for general purposes. The fund for the poor is eontiibuted entirely by those who are members of the church, immediately after the Lord's supper is dispensed each successive Sabbath. I may mention too, that wo don't in general, except in very special cases indeed, approve of, or even allow our poor to receive from public funds at all. Our object is to act on the principle of supporting our own poor entirely ; and we don't admit of their receiving from public funds. They may be members of friendly societies. 7559. Do you mean all public'funds ? — All public funds raised expressly for the poor. 7560. Such as the trades' house funds or Hutchinson's hospital ? — -Not such as these. We admit that they may receive from sucli sources as these in special cases. 7561. Do you think it possible to make an arrangement l)y which members of your church or congregation could take a further charge of the poor in the city, sup^josing a portion of the assessment were put into their hands for the purpose ? — -That is a question I am scarcely prepared to answer. We make it a principle to support our o^^'n poor entirely ; and I am not sure that we would undertake to do more than that. 7562. Would you object, on religious grounds, to have any charge of persons who don't belong to your congregation ?— I think we should — .not that we would not take part in any public arrangement for the support of the poor. As citizens, we should do that. 7563. But would you object to contribute for those who are members of the congregation, but not members of the churcii ? — Our funds arc for the poor of the church. 7564. If a portion of the assessment for the poor wore placed at your disposal, would you object to distribute it among that portion of your congregation who are not members of the church ? — Not upon any religious principle whatever. 7565. But without reference to religious principle ?— No ; we ^vould not object, if we found it a practicable thing. 7566. To what class and rank in life do the present members belong ? — -Very various. The larger proportion are of the middle class. 7567. Have you any of the class of paupers who would be so if they did not belong as members to your church ? — I should rather say not ; or at least the number is very small. 7568. Then your supporting your own members who are poor has no Important bearing on the general question with regard to the jjracticabillty of supporting the poor from the churcli doors ? — Not extensively, at any rate. Our number is not large ; and almost none of them come within the class of paupers so called. We have occasionally heavy cases, such as those of persons in a state of mental derangement. We have occasionally paid for their entire support in a lunatic asylum, when they could not pay themselves. Several of these have oc- curred, and contliuied for years. 7569. What is the reason for your not allowing the members of your church to receive relief from public funds ? — Because we hold the principle that each church of Christ should support its own poor. We have always acted on that principle ; and we wish our poor not to be appearing to receive from other funds than those we contribute for their support. We wish to give a manifestation of om* own principle. 7570. In apportioning the allowances of the poor in your church, do you take into con- sideration other resources ? — If they are members of friendly societies or have sources of a private nature, then, of course, we take that Into consideration. 7571. But, before fixing the allowance, do you ascertain what are the other means ? — - Yes. 7572. You don't go on the general principle that they must have other means ? — We in- quire into each case specifically, and then determine what weekly, or monthly, or occa- sional allowance should be given. 7573. Do you consider what they may receive from relations ? — 'We always inquire what relations they have, and whether these are attending to them as they ought. There are cases where we find they do not ; and these we take upon ourselves, provided the relations are not members of the church. If they are, then we deal with them as neglecting their duty, 7574. When children are able to support their parents, do you find them inclined to do so ? — Genei'aUy. There are some exceptions — cases in which wo have a good deal of diffi- culty. These children are not members of the church. 7575. Do you think the existence of an assessment had any share In producing that disin- clination ? — I am not aware that it had. 7576. Do you think you would have any difficulty in supporting the poor of the congrega- tion from the church collections ? — We consider it a matter of obligation to support the poor of the church ; but would not undertake for those of the congregation. 7577. You have Sabbath schools? — There are Sabbath schools connected with a society 3 I Fxaminations. Glasgow. Dr Wardlavr. 18 Aiiiil li!43. 426 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniiniitions. Avliicli belongs to the four congregational clmrches in Glasgow, giving instruction to 2500 Gi .Asiiow . children in the city and neighbourhood. And we have, as a church, a pretty considerable Dr Wardlaw. wcck-day cvcning school in a locality of the city which we adopted for that and other pur- la April 1843. poscs. From 80 to 100 children receive education there. 7578. Does that belong to you ? — It is exclusively supported by ourseh'es. 7579. Do you know whether the practice you pursue is pursued generally by the congre- gations of the same religious persuasion ? — I should think it is. 7580. But you don't Know whether it is so in point of fact ? — I think I may say it is. I don't know whether they hold the principle so far with regard to not allowing the receipt of assistance from public funds ; but all of them hold the same principle that the support of poor members is a matter of obligation. 7581. \A'hcthcr the persons contributing be more or less wealthy? — We have had occa- sionally churches poorer than our own applying to us for aid. That has very rarely occurred ; not for many years now. 7582. Has that application for aid been for the purpose of enabling them to support their poor? — In special cases, but very rarely. 7583. And have the applications come from country villages or from towns? — From places in the country ; but I don't think we have had any of the kind for five and twenty years past. 7584. Have you not published a series of lectures on Magdalenism in Glasgow ? — I pub- lished on the subject generally — not with reference exclusively to Glasgow. 7585. In consideiing the causes which tend to promote that, did you in any way notice poverty, or pauperism, or destitution ? — Yes. I have no doubt that contributes among other causes to the increase of the evil. 7580. I understand that the members of congregational churches support their own poor who are members without assistance from public funds ? — I think that may be generally affirmed. We act ujion the principle pretty tenaciously. 7587. Would you, as not being a member of the Established Church of Scotland, object to an assessment for parochial puii)oses being divided among the different churches ? — I should object to our own churches being included in the reception of the assessment. We would pay our share ; but would not receive anything from it on principle. 7588. You mean for the members of your own church?— For the members of our own church. 7589. But for the congregation ? — We don't take charge of them. They would come, and do come, on the assessment. 7590. But would you object, on general principles, to a poor law ? — I once would have objected more strongly to tl>e princljile of a poor law than now. I am inclined to think the objection to a poor law arises more from a tendency to certain abuses, than from anything . wrong in the principle. A paternal government is bound to take charge of all classes in the community, and, consequently, of tlie poor, who are not able to take care of themselves. The tendencies to abuse arc great, and if they could be mitigated, I should not object at all to the principle of a jjoor law. 7591. I understood you to say, in answer to a question put some time ago, that you had no objection to take charge of the poor of your own congregation, on your receiving, for this i)urpose, part of the funds raised by assessment ; so that you and your church would thus be administrators of relief to the poor of your congregation, even though they were not members of your church ? — I think I rather declined giving an affirmative answer. I could not answer the question Avithout consulting with those who have chai-ge of the poor fund, and ascertaining whether they would adopt the principle ; for the matter rests very much with them. We supporting our own poor, the members of the congregation then come on any public funds that may be provided, if circumstances require that they should do so. 7592. The point I wish to bring under your notice is, whether you would think it a good mode of administration, generally, that churches should take charge of the poor belonging to their respective congregations ? — I think it a good plan, generally, that churches should support those of their own communion, and leave all others to any jjublic fund that govern- ment might supply for them. If every chm-ch were acting on the priuci})le of fully sup- ])orting tlieir own poor, then it would leave only those who were not of that number to receive relief from public fimds. 7593. But don't you think there would be an advantage in bringing the aggressive prin- ciple of Christianity to bear upon those who arc members of the congregation, though not members of the church, and that this advantage might to a great extent be attained by entrusting to the office-bearers of each church the administration of a portion of the public funds provided for the poor among those who attend the ministrations in that church, though they may not be members of it ? — That is, that, while we sujiport our own poor who are members of the church, we should receive a portion of the general fund for distribution among the congregation. I am not prepared to say, exactly, whether we are ready to act on that princijne. It is very good, so far as I can see. But it seems rather new to me." 7594. Sup])()sing that principle were adopted, do you think the funds collected in Glas- fow in the ditterent congregations would be sufficient for the members, in the first place ? — am not in a position to have such infonnation as might enable me to speak of all the congregations, dissenting and otherwise, in Glasgow. In particular instances, we have * On conrersing subsequently with more than one of the deacons of my church, they had, I found, no cbjection, either on princijjle or otherwise, to the taking charge of such portion (jf the public funds. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 427 ourselves sometimes been obliged to have an extra collection for the poor ; but we are never at a loss for a supply. 7595. The question is, mainly, of the proportion of the rich to the poor among the mem- bers — would the supply be sufficient ? — Judging from our own case it would. 759(5. Have you any suggestion to make on the subject of the poor? — No. I cannot say I have anything particular. I have been occupied with other matters, and have not had much opportunity of late of turning my attention closely to the subject. Eyamhiationg. (jil.A6UOW. Dr Wardlaw. 18 April lfi43. Mr William Thomson, Superintendent, Town's Hospital, Re-examined: — MrW.ThomBOB. * 7597. Have you seen the report made by Mr Miller to the Lord Provost in 1841 ? — I have. 7598. We understood from Mr Miller's statement, that the report with regard to the different individuals was taken from their own statement without inquiry— can you tell us whether you have inquired into those cases, and whether you find any of them incorrectly stated ? — I have examined such as appeared on our rolls ; and I found very considerable discrepancies. 7599. But with regard to any not on tlie roll, did you see whether they ought to be on the roll? — No; I did not feel it to be my duty, on a mere statement of his, founded on the stories of parties, to take up cases of pauperism wliich had never come before us. 7600. Persons who never applied ?— Persons who never applied. 7601. Would you state some of the cases where there is a discrepancy ?— I have gone over them page by page. Some of the discrepancies are small ; 6d. or Is. less than they are receiving has sometimes been stated. In other cases the parties have concealed their other sources. I turn to page 14 of the book. There is a person mentioned there, Mi's Swan, 63, Gallowgate, who stated that she had 6 lb. of meal only, whereas she had 15s. quarterly or 3/. a year — from the town hospital. Her health I remai'ked was not good at the time. The next case is Mrs Leggat, 63, Gallowgate. She stated that she had 3s. 6d. monthly. She has 5s. ; and 20s. yearly fi-om the Dovehill Relief church. Mrs Frame stated that she had 3s. monthly, Avhereas she has 48. monthly, and 5s. from the corporation of wrights : in place of 3s. a month, she has from the two sources 9s. a month. John Meiklc, Gallowgate, stated that he had 4s. a month ; but he has 8/. yearly from two societies for being their officer. But I remarked also that he was a drinker. The man is now dead. He was at that time officer to the tobacco-spinners society, and to the masters' tobacco-spinners. I did not consider him entitled to get any sessional relief at all. 7602. When it is the duty of a parent to support a child, or a child to support a parent, don't you give relief and proceed against the party ? — No. 7 (ids. Do you make an allowance in proportion ? — ^We make an allowance In proportion. 7(i04. Do you know whether that was done in the case of Ceres? — We consider the children bound to provide for their parents. 7()05. You don't consider parents exempt from a legal obligation to support their children ? ■ — We do not. We consider that an action for aliment would lie against a parent for sui>- port of a child. 7606. Do you know the point laid down in the case of Ceres? — I have not paid parti- cular attention to the case. I am quite aware that actions for aliment have been raised by children against their pai'cnts and sustained. 7607. The next case ? — Mrs Irvine, 119, Gallowgate, stated that she had no relief. She had 15s, quarterly. She stated that she had two children under ten. 7608. Has she no children ? — She had two children under ten ; but we consider that at ten we can obtain masters for them. Therefore no allowance is given for children after they are ten. That is the practice. The next is Mrs Anderson, 137, Gallowgate ; she stated that she had 2s. 6d. monthly ; her allowance is 4s. monthly. The next is Mrs Beggs, Gallowgate. She stated that she had 5s. monthly. I find her allowance is 8 lb. of meal per week, and 78. 6d. quai-terly. There are persons stated as in the receipt of monthly aliment of whom we have no trace. Therefore I assume that they belong to other parishes, Mrs Gibson is not known to me ; and she is said to be receiving 3s. a month. The next I mention for explanation rather than on account of any discrepancy. Mrs Moffat stated that she had two children under ten, and no relief. She had not then applied. She did not apply till March. She got 5s. a month till another child was bom. Since she has been getting 25s. quarterly, or 5/. in the year. But there is no discrepancy there. I find in the two cases which follow, that there is a difference only of 6d. between the amount stated and the amount received. Barbara Mackay stated that she had 2s. 6d., whereas she had 3s. 6d. Mrs Gibson is twice inserted. Mrs Newton, 49, Old Vennel, has 3s. 6d. monthly, which is correctly stated ; also 2s. 6d. monthly from the session of the church to which she belongs, I find the name of .James Alison ; but he is not known to us ; he must belong to another parish. Mrs Taylor, Old Vennel, is not knowm to us. She is receiving 4s. montldy from some quarter ; and has four children under ten. She seems not to be supplied from Glas- gow. John Forbes, in receipt of 7s. a month, is correctly stated. He had a wife wlio went to service ; and he was himself received into the hospital. He was labouring under diabetes. He had the assistance of relations. Mrs Paterson is not known to us as a pauper. Mrs . . Bain, receiving 3s. 6d., was in her own son's house. Mrs Jarvie, who stated she had 3s. 6d., was receiving 6s. 6d. ; and she drank every thing she got. When she got her last pay her 428 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE fijiaiii Illations. daughter was a comse, and the body was lying in the house till I discovered the fact, and Glasgow. took steps for the interment. We did not leave the old wretch ; but she was desired to MrW Tliomson come Into the hospital. She was drunk the day her daughter died ; and she came down lit April 1843. and got her money without telling that the daughter was dead. She had 38. in her pocket when the officer found her very drunk. Mrs Stuart is not known to us. William Alex- ander stated that he had 4s. a month ; he has besides 8 lb. of meal per week. William Wilson is a porter, who keeps, or is kept, by a woman much younger than himself. He was taken off the session roll, because they would neither separate nor marrj'. Mrs Mason is stated at 4s., she is not known to me. One particular case, which the newspapers took up as a case of neglect, is that of an old man, Robert Lyle, Gallowgate, who stated his allow- ance at less than he received. He had 32Z. in the savings' bank when he died. He stated that he had 5s. a month. He had 7s. He had also 2s. from the Old Men's Society. He came to Glasgow lame. He had also some private charity. He left 32?., which repaid the hospital. It was said that he had 100/., Avhich liis friends got hold of, and that they got his name indorsed. But we made no inquiry about it, for the 32/. was enough for us. 7fi09. The cases you have mentioned are taken from one page— Do you think these are a fair specimen ? — There are some, pages where the discrej)ancies are considerable ; others where they are small. Lyle's name is on page 13. 7610. From your knowledge of the habits of the poor, have you any doubt, that in the cases of those you have not examined, the result would be found the same ? — I have no doubt the other cases are similar. Tliese are a very fair specimen. 7611. Do you recollect the case of a foundling about the Parliamentary Road? — I do. 7612. Do you recollect having an application from the police in that case ? — Yes. 7613. What was the result ? — A refusal from our committee ; because the person who brought in the chUd, or the spot where it was found were not known. The greater part of the Par'liamentary Road is in the Barony parish. This case, they said, has been carelessly taken charge of. Then an a])plication was made to the Barony parish, and they also gave a refusal. Ultimately the two parishes agreed to bear half the expense ; and tlie child was taken charge of at their joint expense. 7614. Has any change been made in the amount of aliment to parties receiving outdoor relief since you came to the hospital ? — There has been an increase upon the general rate of allowance to widows with families. 7615. Has any change been made in the amount of aliment since you were last examined ? — No, but the session has been ordered to retain cases till tlie relief amount to 6s. Previously, they were required to send them to the hospital roll when more than 5s. was required. 7616. There has been no other change ? — No other. 7617. Suppose you found 100/. left by a pauper, would you apply it to defray the expense of his subsistence ? — We would repay ourselves, and let other claimants get the remainder. There was a case where a blind M'oman was lodging with some friends, and was applying for an increased allowance. She was taken into the town's hospital ; but she began to s})eak of some property, as if the family meant to aj)propriate it to themselves. They said she had made a gift of it. Mr Ross and I gave them the choice of trying the point in a court of law, or of handing up the money. The latter alternative was preferred ; and the money was kept to defray her charges. She had no title to our funds. She came in blind. 7618. Were you offered the assistance of any additional officer lately ? — I was offered assistance in making up the books. 7619. You said you did not wish for any other assistance ? — No. Unity of management I consider indispensable. I find the same person applying to different sessions. I recollect one instance lately of a person getting Is. from the committee, and 9 lbs. of meal weekly, while at the same time she was receiving money from two different elders. One gave me her name as a new applicant to his session. When I inquired at the place where she was said to live she was not there. At last I 6us2)ected who she was. I caused her to go to the son of the gentleman who had given in her name, and she was detected. Then there was another person who imposed herself on St Andrew's parish. She passed her examination witli me, and was enrolled without my discovering that she was the same person who had relief from the hospital. 7620. Have you known many such instances ? — Not very many. 7621. Do you find an inclination on the part of children to support their parents? — ^\'ery seldom. 7622. Do you think the disposition to do so is decreasing or increasing ? — I think decreasing. 7623. To what do you attribute that? — To the idea of selfishness getting in among them, so that, if they can ])rovide for themselves, they don't care for tlielr parents. 7()24. Do you think it is owing to the assessment being brought down to a lower range of rate-payers ? — Bringing down the assessment to a lower range has the effect of increasing the ai)plicants. I am often told by persons called on to pay, that they cannot now assist their friends. 7()25. Do you think the existence of an independent fund whence relief can be supplied, has a tendency to produce that feeling ? — I have not the least doubt of it. 7626. Has an assessment been lately introduced into Glasgow? — Not lately; but for- iiterly it was not brought down so far as now. 7627. Never to the same amount as now? — Never so great as last year. Perhaps you will allow me to lay before you the opinion of counsel ^^■ith reference to begging. It is to the effect that a person who has been begging for tliree years in a parisli, has a claim in law to parochial relief. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 429 Gxainiiiationg. Dr Perry, Examined : — Glasgow. l)r Perry. 7G28. Yoii are a medical practitioner in Glasgow ? — Yes. 13 _^p,.ii m^j. 7(i29. How long have you been so? — For upwards of thirty years. 7630. Have you turned your attention particularly to the state of the lower orders in Glasgow ? — I iiave been particularly called on to do so from having held the situation of physician to the infirmary for a considerable time. I am so at present. 7(i31. Have you collected any statistical information connected with the subject? — I have been in the habit of keeping statistical tables since 1832, when a fever hospital was opened at Mile-end. 7632. Have any of them been printed? — Dr Cowan has taken the substance of some ot them, but he has not taken the whole. There is a table of the districts of the town from which i)atients were taken for a few months, and also of the class of the individuals, with the relative numbers of Scotch, P^nglish, and Irish. I have also statistical tables with reference to the employments of the patients, but I have not got them here. 7633. Are any of the tables in such a state, that you could leave them with us ? — This is a table of the districts and the counties from which patients admitted into the fever hospital in 1842 belonged to. I have another to show how long they have been resident in Glasgow. 7634. What were the periods when epidemic was most frequent in Glasgow? — In 1816 and 1817 it was very prevalent; and also in 1827, 1832, 1836, and 1837. 7635. There is not at present any jjarticular epidemic ?— No. There are very few cases at present — fewer than for a considerable period. 7636. That is for the last twelve months? — Yes. 7637. Since 1837 ? — In 1839, it began to increase a little, and .ilso in 1840 ; but it again diminished. I have the comparative numbers at different periods with me. 7638. Have those epidemics been most prevalent during the penods of the greatest desti- tution ? — I think they have generally — not always. 7639. Would you state what circumstances, in your opinion, chiefly contributed to their j)revalence ? — ^ly opinion is, that the epidemics we have, except influenza, depend upon con- tagion, and they spread most when people are more crowded together — when the influx of strangers from the country is greatest. In 1835 and 1836, a period of prosperity, in which there was a great demand for labourers and servants, there was a greater influx from the country districts, and from Ireland, than for several years before ; and I believe it was the great influx of individuals from the country districts, not previously protected from the epi- demic, that gave rise to the great number of cases in 1836-37. 7640. Are there any local circumstances in Glasgow that encourage epidemics in those quarters ? — When epidemic fever is prevailing, there are circumstances which increase its prevalence, but never in any case do these originate contagious diseases. 7641. But are there local circumstances which encourage disease? — -I know nothing that does so, but the crowding of people together in small dwellings, and these probably filthy lodging-houses, and places of that kind. I am satisfied this never gives origin to fever, though it spreads it wiicn it occurs as an epidemic. 7642. But when it has occurred, I ^\'ish to know what local circumstances tend to increase and spread it ? — The only circumstances are crowding together filth and want of ventilation. 7643. Do you think the want of proper sewerage contributes ? — I believe it has no effect whatever. I have paid particular attention to that subject. 7644. Do you think the prevalence of intemperance has a bad effect ? — ^It has, when fever is prevalent ; but I believe that intemperance is somewhat less than it was seven years ago. 7645. But you consider that, when an epidemic exists, intemperance tends to increase it ? — It tends only so far as it makes individuals regardless about getting into the way of infection. It has an indirect influence, by producing want and destitution in families. 7646. When epidemics have occurred, do }-ou think that persons given to intemperance are moi'e likely to catch the infection ? — I never found that intemperance made any difference. 7647. But has not a weakened state of health a tendency to render a person more liable to catch infection ? — I have had considerable experience, but I do not think I have observed that such is the ease. I hold a different oi)inion from most people on the subject. But I have attended upwards of 10,000 cases of fever, and have had more experience than any other medical man in Glasgow, in the treatment of typhus fever. 7648. Are fever patients kept separate in the infirmary? — Yes, they are. 7649. You believe contagion is the chief cause of fever ?— It is the only cause. 7650. Do you conceive the contagion arises from the bodies of patients, or from the state of the atmosphere ? — Yes. The contagion of fever, small-pox, and all eruptive diseases, is propagated in the same way by the effects of that eruption after the patient begins to recover from the disease, the skin throwing off the poison. 7651. The disease is not propagated by the contamination of the air? — ^Poisonous matter may be floating in the atmosphere, and may lodge in the clothes, and may be carried in that way to a distance, spreading the disease. 7652. Do you think destitution favours the spread of fever? — No, except in so far as it makes people crowd more together. 7653. Do you think the condition of the poor of Glasgow improved, or otherwise ? — I rather think it deteriorating. 7654. To what do you attribute that ? — The low rate of wages is the most likely cause. 7655. Have you any suggestions to offer? — I have read with some attention the report on the sanitary condition of the poor by Mr Chadwick. It is founded altogether upon error. Much is attributed to want of cleanliness, want of sewerage, the effluvia oi stagnant marshes, 430 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Dr Perry. 18 April 184:f. and similar causes, which I believe have no influence Avhatever on contagious disease. They may give rise to impaired health in various ways, but not to any of those epidemic diseases. 7656. Then you don't think, in a medical point of view, want of cleanliness would affect the prevalence of fever ? — Not as producing fever or contagious disease. 7657. Have you been in the habit of visiting any of the poor in their own dwellings? — No ; not to any great extent. I have sometimes had occasion to see some of their dwellings ; but I know from the circumstances in which they are brought into the hospital, the very great extent of destitution and misery that prevails among them. 7658. You had to deal with parties in the receipt of parochiid relief? — Yes. 7659. Have you formed any idea whether the allowances are adequate or not ? — I think in many cases they are very inadequate. A number of cases arc brought in from the town and Barony parish ; and on many occasions we find great difficulty in getting quit of them from the infirmary. They have no means of living after they get out. They are often un- able to provide for themselves, and Avhat they get from the parish is so small, that ihey are absolutely in a state of starvation. I have repeatedly had occasion to send to Dr Black's clerk, requesting him to take a\vay patients, and to get them a little relief. We have had fathers and mothers in the infirmary with their children in a state of starvation. On parents com- ing to the hospital, I have taken the trouble to inquire into the circumstances of their fami- lies, and have found them almost in a state of starvation. We get many cases in the house which are not fever cases at all, but mere cases of starvation. 7660. Parties in the receipt of parochial relief? — Some of them are. 7661. In what parish is the infirmary locally situated? — -I think in the Barony parish. 7662. Do you receive patients from all parts of Scotland ? — From all parts of Scotland. I give in a table of the districts and counties from which patients were admitted into the fever hospital in 1842. [The following table was then put in ;] — TABLE of the Districts and the Counties from which Patients admitted into the Fever Hospital belonged to. 1842. Aberdeenshire, .... Argyleshire, Ayrshire, Males. Females. Haddingtonshire, Inverness-shire, ... Kincardineshire, . Kirkcudbrightsh., Lanarkshire, Linlithgowshire, . . Murray shire, Nairnshire, Males. Females. Roxburghshii-e, . . . Ross-shire, Males. Females. 3 21 16 10 1 2 1 6 6 2 1 4 43 18 9 2 "i 4 ■ 7 2 3 11 1 2 33 3 1 2 3 3 27 1 10 1 37 2 "i 11 30 1 2 16 2 6 244 21 44 6 131 473 I'i 1 1 215* 8 103 1 131t Stirlingshire, Sutlierlandshire, .. Wigtonshire, Ireland. Edinburofhshire, .. Berwickshire, Buteshu'ft Caithness-shire, ... Dumbartonshire, . Dumfries-shire,.... Fifeshire, England, Uncertain, Orkneyshire, Perthshire, Foreign, Natives of Glascrow Forfarshire, Renfi'ewshire, 69 90 89 84 474 Males, Females, • Total Irish, 459. Total, 631 648 1279 t Total Natives, 262. The following TABLE shows the Number of Patients admitted from the different Districts of the City to the Hospital under my care during a period of six months in 1832 : — e^ ■s S ^ fi ■J ■A 1 ■g 1 .| ■fi i s It a o 5 >. a p s a 1 1 i CO a 1 u S S 3 O CO 1 1 O 1 1 s 1 '% 1 V •s 5 1 S (5 1 e s 1 1 1 e. •o o (0 5 i A "a i 1 n \ o i 1 O n 5 £ 1 a 1 < 5 "s o 1 i i r— 1 1832. .Tanuary,... February,. 5 .3 46 45 2 8 12 22 12 9 3 3 1 4 1 1 2 8 19 10 6 4 7 20 14 10 19 10 7 18 14 107 147 9 4 76 50 V 25 March, 1 67 10 27 11 1 <<< 6 2 9 4 4 6 23 9 4 19 144 3 45 April, 2 48 9 22 18 3 4 I 4 16 5 5 3 11 2 6 9 126 2 39 May, 3 62 6 16 18 4 3 1 17 4 2 5 7 19 10 4 125 45 June, 8 42 1 14 4 7 2 2 6 1 3 3 19 4 9 2 91 1 35 •July, ... 66 4 31 Aug:ust, ... Total,... ... ... 1 322 22 310 35 113 72 14 19 11 11 85 30 25 50 89 41 63 73 806 16 POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 431 7663. As a great number come from diiferent jiarts of Scotland, may not that account Examinations. for the Barony parish declining to take charge of those who in the infinnary may be desti- Ulasoow . tute ? — That may be a reason, but I am not aware that there was much difficulty in getting d,. Penv. them in at the time they sent them in without payment. The magistrates and police coidd 18 April I'm.i. then send parties into tlie infinnary. After that the infirmary was so burdened with the number of cases sent, that they required payment from the Barony parish, and the jxjor- house. Many fever patients have been sent, and it is more diflficiUt tor patients to get in. I was also going to mention, that we frequently have occasion to send out patients who have no way to get a living, and are perfectly helpless. I sent out some this week in a paralytic state. We can't keep them Mhen they are hopelessly incurable. They have not a right to go to the poorliouse — rthey have no friends. One whom I sent out last week had no friends, and was paralytic. She had been a good many years in Glasgow, but had nowhere to go. Some of these cases lie on the streets and stairs, and get into the night asylum, where they get their bed and breakfast ; and in the course of a week or two they are j)icked up by some benevolent individual, and sent back to the infinnary. 7664. What entitles to admission ? — A subscriber's line, or an order lirom the Barony parish or poorhouse. 7665. Have country parishes established a right ? — Some have. 7666. What is the amount of subscription ? — One guinea. 7667. Then for each guinea, you can send a patient ? — Yes. The Barony pays ISs. 7668. There are lines from subscribers ? — Yes. They have one for every ten guinea donation. 7669. Is there a printed report ? — Yes. 7670. IIa\c you known cases of persons coming to Glasgow with the view of obtaining a settlement here ? — I am not awai-e of that ; I have not had an opportunity of judging. 767L Have you found an unwillingness to go into the country, or to other parishes ? — Yes, often very great un\villingness to go out of the house. So far, that, when they are utterly hel[)lcss, and unable to walk, I have often been obliged to take measures for removing them. They had probably been laid down by the police at the fever house door, quite unable to help themsehes. I have been obliged to send them out in the fever van again, and lay them down at the poorhouse door. 7672. Are those persons having a residence in Glasgow ?— I did so with one individual, who stated that she had been from twenty to thu-ty years a sen'ant in the families of two gentlemen in Glasgow as a cook. Yet this poor woman, when seventy years of age could not get into the poorhouse, and I desired the man with the van to lay her down at the poor- house door. 7673. Do you find in those who are from country parishes more reluctance to leave, than in those who belong to the town or the Barony parish ? — I am not aware that I have found any difference in that respect. 7674. You stated many patients on the poor roll, when brought in, are in a state of star- vation — ^have you known their previous habits ? — No ; we have very little opportunity of inquiry — very little information except from themselves. I took some trouble in framing a table of those who, among the patients in 1837, were intemperate. The males intemperate were seven per cent, on all the admissions ; and if you take into account that a number of the patients are young — below twenty — if you take those above twenty-five, there were not less than 15 or 16 per cent, intemperate. 7675. And the females?— I did not take the same opportunity of forming an estimate. 7676. When you said the allowances were insufficient, did you refer exclusively to those of patients in the infirmary ? — Only of those who came under my own observation. 7677. You have had no opportunity of making any observations generally, with regard to the insufficiency of the allowances? — None. I have heard the question discussed, and have taken an interest in it ; but I cannot speak from personal knowledge, except as to those who came under my observation in the infirmary. 7678. Those were on the poor roll? — Many of them were on the poor roll, and I applied to Dr Black, or the suj^erintendent of the Barony parish, to see if anything could be done. 7679. Docs your remark apply to the Barony alone, or to the city and the Gorbals ? — To both the Barony and the city, and to the Gorbals also. 7680. Do you think the provision made for medical attendance and medicines is sufficient ? — I say it is not sufficient. At the same time, the circumstances of parties in poor epidemic cases are so very uncomfortable, that I question if the patients can be well attended to. 7681. Is there a sufficient number of district surgeons ? — I think there are twelve. 7682. I ask if you tliink the number sufficient ? — I should think so ; they are very ill paid. 7683. When you say you think there is not sufficient attention paid to the subject of medical attendance and medicines, you mean to express an oi^inion that there ought to be some farther public provision made ? — I think the infirmary is the place they should be sent to. 7684. Is it sufficiently large ? — At present it is. 7685. In M'hat respect would you say the medical attendance for the poor is insufficient ? — • I M-as saying the medical officers were insufficiently remunerated. 7686. The existing provision is svifficient for the patients, but insufficient for the medical attendance ? — The remuneration is insufficient. 7687. But you think the poor well taken care of?— As well as they can well be. I don't think they are neglected ; but many cases are sent into the infirmary fi:om the patients hav- 432 MINUTES OF E"^^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxiiiiiiiiations. ing no bed-clothes. In complaining to the district surgeons for sending so many to the fever Glasgow. house, they have said in reply, that thoy were under the necessity of doing so, because the Dr Pen V patients were more comfortable, even though they ran the risk of catching fever, m April 1843. 7688. Is there an infiraiary attached to the poorhouse? — There is. 7689. Could they not send some there ?— All the chronic cases ; the epidemic cases would not do — they would spread the contagion. 7690. You say some cases, hot fever cases, are sent to you? — Yes, many. There is no room for them in the poorhouse. 7691. Would a provision for these alleviate the pressure on you? — Yes, if these cases were taken into an infinnary attached to the poorhouse. 7692. You mentioned that Glasgow has been peculiarly free of epidemic since 1840, and that the state of health had been more satisfactory during two or three yeai-s past ? — I be- lieve that is owing to the very cause I formerly mentioned. There has been a general want of employment, and no encouragement has been given to stmngers coming in from other districts, where they are not exposed to fever ; and hence there has not been the same in- ci'ease of fever among the poor as there was under different circumstances. If we had a period of good trade for two or three years, we should have an influx from the country, and the same increase of fever as on former occasions. 7693. You stated that it was to such an influx in 1836-37, the prevalence of fever was attributable, and that fever was also prevalent in 1816-17, 26-27, 32-33 : I ^^-ish to know, do you advert to the same cause, as operating diu-ing those periods, as in 1836-37 ? — I can't speak with the same certainty as to the state of trade on those occasions ; but I think, fi-om the increase of population at those periods, that the same cause may be assigned. I find the population, betwixt 1821 and 1832, rising J&-om 147,000 to 202,000. 7694. Then your impression is, that the same cause was in operation ? — The same cause. 7695. 1832 was the year of the cholci-a ? — Yes ; but the influence of fever was diminished by the means used for eradicating cholera— by cleanliness and comfoi't. An additional fever hospital was required to be opened in 1832. No sooner did the cholei-a appear in Glasgow, and the means to obviate the circumstances likely to promote it, were put in operation, than fever diminished at the same time, by the very means used to eradicate cholera. So that cleanliness and ventilation, at that time, had a considerable effect in lessening fever, 7696. Was not the mortality considerable from influenza ? — In 1835, I think it was. 7697. Was it as great as from typhus, on the last irruption of that disease ? — I think it was very great ; but it did not last long— only a few months. It chiefly affected old people, 7698. Did it prevail cliiefly among the poorer classes? — No, it prevailed among all ; it was not confined to the poor more than to the rich. 7699. Do you asciibe its mortality to destitution among the poor? — No. 7700. Does that destitution aftect disease in any way ? — Whatever weakens the body must affect disease. 7701. But not otherwise? — Not otherwise. Those who were weakest suffered most from the disease, 7702. But you would not extend that remark to fever? — No, You will find in the table that the natives of Glasgow, admitted into tlie fever hospital, amounted only to 20^ per cent, on the whole admissions, the Irish to 35 per cent. 7703. Do yovi refer to birth or residence ? — To birth in this. 7704. A considerable number miglit have been resident for a long time in Glasgow? — Numbers stated that they were non-resident ; sixty-nine males and forty-four females were admitted, who were not resident, but came from countjy districts ; sixty-one niides and fifty- seven females were admitted who had been less than six months in Glasgow ; and so on. The following table of admissions includes the pei'iod from Ist November 1841 to 1st Novem- ber 1842 :— Males. Females, Non-resident, ... ... ... ... ... 69 ... 44 Under six months, ... ... ... ... 61 ... 57 Under 1 year, ... ... ... ... 37 ... 29 3 years, ... ... ... ... 79 ... 70 6 ... ... ... ... ... 63 ... 48 ... XU ... ... ... ... ... 40 .*• 0\) ,.. i-0 ... ... ... ... ... Aose of administering the funds? — Generally present. I am very seldom absent. 7850. AVhat is the mode in which applications for relief are made ? — Generally by petition from the person who is in want to the session, or to an elder of the session. The elder asso- ciates with him another elder ; and they make a personal visit, and report to the session with regard to the state of the case, as the circumstances have come under their notice. Fonnerly, when this was done, and when their opinion was favourable to the applicant, the session gave what was thought suitable to the case ; but within the last two years there has been appointed a town hospital inspector of the poor, and since his appointment we have been called on to submit every petition to him. He also makes an investigation and reports to the session ; and wc take the opinion of the elders and of the inspector together in forming our conclusion whether the individual should receive aliment or not. 7851. And you never admit an applicant without the joint opinion of the inspector and of the elders ? — No. 7852. Wliat is the amount of allowance to the sessional poor? — The maxinnun allowance is 6s. When any case requires more than that it is remitted to the town's hospital. 7853. What is the minimum allowance given by the session ? — I don't know whether there ia any legal minimum, but none come under 3s. a month. 7854. Do you give occasional relief ? — Yes; the elders do so without putting parties on tlie roll. 7855. What is the amount from time to time granted?- It is not very easy to give an answer. It depends very much on the district the elder has. Sometimes it is more, some- times less ; and it is given in casualties, such as a poor person dying and leaving a family who require immediate aid. 7856. What are the largest amounts given, so far as you recollect, in the way of occasional relief? — I don't know that I could answer that. The elders generally give in a monthly re- port showing sometimes that they have expended 8s. or 10s., or more. They might give 2s. or 3s., or more sometimes, in cases of extreme distress. The principle is to keep the occa- sional relief as low as j)ossible, and when a case of continued destitution occurs that is put on the regular roll. The object is to keep down that charity which is at the option of the elders. 7857. You mean the elders, in the first instance, without consulting the session, have the power of granting that relief? — Yes, to a certain extent. 7858. Does the practice prevail in all the city sessions ? — Yes, I have always understood that it does. 7859. Do you think the practice is a good one, so far as you have had experience ? — I have always been inclined to think very fiivourably of it, inasmuch as the cases are very closely scrutinized, and as the gentlemen are kind and very much disposed to give relief to the poor. 7860. Do you think it aids or hinders the exercise of the spiritual office by the elder ? — I am not aware that it hinders it. I have heard the elders say sometimes they are afraitl their visits are more esteemed in consequence of their ha^nng power to give aid than from the desire to receive them as spiritual office-bearers. My impression has always been, that it made the elder very acceptable in every respect when he had the power to give relief, and he might avail himself of the opportunity to give them good advice, iind bring them to church. 7861. Would you think it desirable that the offices of deacon and of elder should be kept distinct ? — It is desirable if a sufficient number of functionaries could be got. 7862. Do j'ou think there would be difficulty in obtaining a sufficient number of func- tionaries ? — I should think so. We have in our own parish both elders and deacons ; and POOR LAW INQUIRY CO:\rMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 441 we find those who hold the office of deacon — generally young men — leave the town or goto Exatninations. different parts of the town ; and we have frequent changes among them. _ Glasgow. 78()3. Which you consider injurious to the system? — Yes. 1 think so, affecting it more p^ Foi-bes than the system by elders. _ , , _ 18 Apiil lii43. 7864. Are you aware that an experiment similar to that in St John's was instituted in St Paul's parish ?— Yes ; it was before I became minister of St Paul's. 7865. Have you made any observations on that subject from looking into the records ? — I got the records to-day, and looked into them. I did not see what took place in my own parish ; but I saw what took place in the general session. It appears that previous to 1819, the different sessions gave the collections at the church doors into a common fimd under the management of the general session. They received out of that fund according as they required for parochial support, and any deficiency was supplied by the treasurer applying to the town hosi)ital. That year in consequence of some difference of opinion between the general session and the magistrates, — the magistrates having authorized Dr Chalmers to act independently and separately — the general session gave up all management. They gave it over to the town's hospital to receive the collections, and to make the allowances ; and I suppose that the system still continues. It was under it, I imagine, that in the Outer High Church parish, the attempt was made for a time, and also in St John's. 7860. Did you find no record on the subject in the minutes of your session? — The clerk told me that there was nothing in oiu* own minutes, but that the minutes of the general session contained information on the subject. I have not seen those of our own session, but have examined the general sessions. 7867. Then you cannot state from yoiu- own knowledge to what extent the experiment was made, or why it failed ? — No, I have not been able to trace out the particulars. 7868. Have you any suggestion to offer with regard to the general administration of the poor funds in Glasgow and the neighbourhood ? — I took occasion in the town hospital to advert to a subject which ought to be remedied. I have often found when an applicant has come to us, and we have remitted the case to the inspector, that while he did not deny the existence of distress he objected that there was not a legal settlement in the town ; and I have seen cases rejected on that ground. I have been obliged, and have thought it my duty when distress has been ascertained, to supply relief; and the town's hospital should take the burden of procuring indemnification by applying to the parish in which a party has a settlement ; and if that were made imperative in every case, it would serve to relieve a very great dciil of pressing distress. 7869. Is it your opinion that it would be for the benefit of the poorer classes in all re- spects (I refer to their moral as well as their temporal condition) that there shoidd be an assessment to a larger extent than at present ? — I really could not give a very decided answer on that point. 7870. Do you tliink it advisable to have an assessment for the able-bodied poor ? — Cer- tainly not. 7871. What is your objection to that? — I should fear a great many would have their motives to industry diminished if they felt they could come and claim any support from a public fund ; and I don't know that it would have a very good moral effect if they were able to come and make any demand of that land. 7872. Do you think it would affect the disposition of children to provide for their aged parents ? — I should think so. I should think it very injmious to those feelings of kindness and charity among relatives. 7873. Are not aged parents entitled to relief now? — They are, and in some cases where they have children able to support them, I believe the elder would feel it bis duty to bring the case imder their consideration. 7874. But how does the giving a right of relief to able-bodied persons affect the point, whether a son should maintain his aged parent or not ? — I understood the question was, if the assessment were made so much larger, whether that might not diminish the children's sense of their obligation to support their parents ; that is if the provision were greater, and made more easily obtainable, and also without restriction. 7875. But you don't think the allowance to able-bodied persons, one way or other, has any effect on that particular point ? — My answer to that was, I thought it would diminish their motives to industry if they could come on the fund for support. 7876. Do you think it would diminish their motives to industry if they were allowed relief, not as a matter of riglit but at the discretion of the manngers ? — ^I am not acquainted with that state of things, and could not take upon me to say whether it would work. 7877. From your knowledge of human natiu-e, would you think it would impair their provident habits if they could obtain relief in a public institution ? — I should think it would have a considerable eft'ect. They would prefer liberty to going into such a situation ; at the same time there might be an inducement to do so. 7878. Are you satisfied with the present condition of the poor in Glasgow, or do you think anything could be done to raise their status ? — I think their present state very de- plorable — I think something ought to be done to raise it. 7879. Could you make any definite suggestion on that head ? — I think their present state arises from many circumstances over which it is difficult to get a proper control placed. Intemperance I look on as the great cause of destitution ; and pawnbroking, from the faci- lity it gives for pledging their clothes and furniture, accounts for many falling into circum- stances of destitution. The general state of things in closes is unfavourable to that com- munication betwixt the richer and the poorer classes in many of the poorer districts, which might exist under a better management. It is offensive, and many benevolent persons are 3L 442 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kx.iiniiiutions. (lI.ASCOW. Pr Forbes. 18 April 1843. averse to going to places where they might be useful under other Gireumstances. I should think, if these things were mitigated or removed, it would tend greajtly to lessen pauperism. 7880. Could the stream of pauperism to any considerable extent be cut ofF by making a better provision for the education of the young, including under that term moral and reli- gious instruction? — I have no doubt that the moral and religious education of the young would have a very great effect ; and it is now attended to, more in some cases than it was some years ago. I hope much from the fruits of the present improvement, and that greater efforts of the same kind may be felt afterwards ; but as to the present state of things the habits of the parents will probably remain as they are, notwithstanding the young people are getting better education. 7881- Is the condition of the poor, with reference to education, satisfactory in your own parish? — It is not adequate. We have been able to extend it of late years in consequence of an arrangement betwixt the particular kirk session and the town's hospital, with the sanction of the magistrates. The collection at the church doors was not prosperous in consequence of the assessment, and the arrangement made with the concurrence of the magistrates was, that, provided the session contributed to the poor the average of what they had done for the previous three years, any surplus would be allowed to remain at the disposal of the session, for the purpose of education. We get the benefit of that surplus, and we have a very con- siderable number of children, whose education has been entirely neglected, now brought under tuition, At the same time, if we had another school, or two others, we could fill them. 7882. That arrangement does enable you wholly to overtake the wants of the parish as respects education ? — Not wholly. Then there are private schools. I have had occasion to pieet with children taught at some of these schools, and I have been led to form a very un- favourable impression of the state of education with regard to many of them. I have seen phildren that have been in such schools a year or two ; and they are scarcely able to read the alphabet or to put small words together. Their system is paying a penny a week, and in some of these schools the greatest irregularity of attendance is consequent upon that — a parent may not find it convenient to give the penny, and the child is sometimes there and sometimes away, so that there is very little improvement. 7883. Do you refer to any particular class of schools ?^-Some one under a committee, and others under private individuals. 7884. They are not regularly visited by the presbytery ?— There are some schools that we have not got access to. There is one school in my parish to which I was refused access. In others of them which I have visited, I have found the teacher complaining of the circum- stances of the pupils as the reason why the schools were not so advanced as he could have wished. 7885. What was the nature of the school to which you were refused access ? — It was a school in connexion vyith one of the dissenting churches in the parish. 7886. Which .^— ;! think they stated it was attached to Dr Icing's congregation, and that if I went to him and asked permission, I might visit ; but they could not receive me as a member of presbytery. Mr Cojan, Hugh Cogan, Esq., cotton-spinner, Examined '.-^ 7887. You are Dean of Guild ? — Yes ; and chairman during office of the merchants' house. 7888. Would you state how the poor in that house are managed ? — The annual revenue is distributed amongst decayed members or their descendants, which relieves the city as respects the demand fron> the poor otherwise. 7889. Do you think some of the parties who receive from that body, would be otherwise chargeable as poor on the city ? — Yes, some of them would. 7890. Do you not think the existence of that charity tends to check individual exertions ? — No ; in nine cases out of ten, persons so relieved coqld not have contemplated that they would become dependant upon the house. 7891. Do any of them apply for relief from the public funds ? — Speaking generally, they do not apply. 7892. The funds arise from certain mortifications? — There has been a gradual accumu- lation for the last 250 years ; and every merchant on being made a member, pays ten guineas, which go to the fund. 7893. Out of that the charity is paid ? — Out of that ; and the wise appropriations of other funds, which have now become sources of revenue to the house. 7894. Is there nothing left by the will of any person ? — Yes. A few bequests have been left to the house. I have in my hand an abstract of the revenue and expenditure for the last five years, and a statement of the constitution drawn up twenty years ago by Mr Ewing when he was Dean of Guild, 7895. What is the number receiving aid? — 91 in February last, — chiefly widows and families. There are six or seven old merchants also who were formerly in business, re- ceiving from 151. to 25/. — none above 25/. Some of these are men who have been in a large business, but have suffered from a change of circumstances, and they now receive the benefit of this establishment. 7896. Do you think it would raise the characters of the parties on that list, if, instead POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 443 of having? a regular provision, they were (Jependar\t on the charity of individuals in the same rank of life ? — No, 7897. Are yon a,n elder of the church? — Yes, I am, 7898. In what parish? — St James's. 7899. Have you attended to tlie state of the poor there ? — I have, 79ft0. Are you satisfied with the allowances ? — I think we are scarcely liberal enough ; but the system is admirable. 7901. Could you da without an assessment in Glasgow? — Why, our population is so very peculiar, that I should say we could not ; hut if the parochial system were complete, I think it likely that an assessment would not be required. 790.2. Do you think that system practicable, when the people are in the state you refer to ? — It would require some time ; but we possess proofs of the advantages of the system : and it is illustrated in our own churches, where districts have been given. One church, St Luke's, is in a locality, where, about seven years ago, when the church was erected, and a clergyman appointed, there were within a circle comprising 3300 people, only 130 who had sittings in any church at all ; and it was one of the most degraded districts. It was held by the police as manifestly one of the worst. A very efficient person indeed, was appointed ; he formed around bin; a very efficient body of elders and deacons, each having a district assigned to him ; and the result there and in various other districts, where manageable parishes have been allocated to the ministers of the new churches, is one which demonstrates most clearly to my mind, that it is possible to effect an immense change, if the system could be carried out more extensively. 7903. Have the dissenters given their assistance in anyway? — Of course they have not, because the agency is in connexion with the Establishment. 7ii04. Have you formed an opinion whether it is desirable to form a connexion with dis- senters in the management of the poor ? — Were it practicable. 7905. Do you see any objection to the deacons of the dissenting churches taking part, as well as those of the Established church, in the management of the poor ? — In ordinary times, such an arrangement might work. In times such as we had when the question with regard to establishment and non-establishment, was in agitation, it might not have done so well, because, under the excitement, they would not harmonize so well as they might othervi-ise. 790G. But in ordinary times it might do ? — I donH see any great difficulty. I know that at present dissenters have the same right to the parochial fund with those who belong to the church. 7C07. How long have you been in the town-council ? — I was four or five years under the old recjime, but was not returned under the Reformed Municipal Bill. I have had more or less to do with the administration of civic affairs for the last fifteen or sixteen years. 7il08. Were you in the council when the bill relative to the assessment was passed? — I was when the bill was passed, 7909. How has it worked ? — Matters were in such a state that we could not have gone on under the old system. I was an assessor for two or three years. In consequence of several wealthy merchants having residences beyond the royalty, and being assessable by the Barony parish, they ceased to be assessable in the town. They transferred their counting houses from the centre of the city to a short distance from their residences, and beyond the limits of the royalty, so that their means and substance were no longer assess- able. The efi^ect was to lower the value of that source of revenue for the relief of the poor ; because many who were not necessitated to have their places of business in the centre of the city, removed them elsewhere, and they were no longer under the fangs of the assessor for the poor of the city. 7910. Does the assessment now fall upon them ? — It falls upon them, in this way, — . wherever they have property it is liable ; if they have a counting-house at a hundred guineas, it is a.ssessed to the parish in which it lies, whether in the Barony or the City. 7911. The mode of assessment is assimilated to that of the Barony? — Yes. 7912. That was mainly the reason for the change ? — It was. It was found that mer- chants and others, who formerly had been in the custom of paying within the royalty where they had works to the value of"l2,000/. or 20,000/., by going beyond the limits of the city got into the Barony, and paid five per cent, only on their rental there of 20/. or 3U/., or it might be 50/. The nature of the assessment on means and substance was disagreeable, because it was so difficult to fix a limit to means and property. To meet at the board, and estimate the amount assessable was a very inquisitorial and unpleasant duty. 7913. Has not the practical effect, to a considerable extent, been to transfer the burden of the poor rates from the wealthier classes in Glasgow to the less wealthy ?• — It affects property now wherever it is found — heritable property. 7914. Has it been found that the rental represents equally the means and substance of the parties assessed ? — Of course not. Many paying on 150Z. rental in Trongate, may not have one-fifth part of the capital possessed by the man who has a counting-house at 50/. rent. 7915. But under the old system a man was not assessed for property locally situated, and assessed elsewhere.'' — Neither for landed, nor for any other kind of property situated elsewhere was he assessed ; but if a West India merchant was supposed to be possessed of a certain amount of property, he was assessed on that, because lie carried on his business here. 79 1 6. Do you find that the allowance to parties on your roll weakens the family affec- tions among them ? — Not generally. 1'xamm.iticiiig. Gl.AShed at some returns ; parties felt it more agreeable to acknowledge what they had had for a series of years than for the last two or three years, which have been very bad. 7928. Have you anything to suggest with regard to the management of the poor ? — I am a great advocate for the parochial system, if it were made co-extensive with the wants of the people. Education and an extended parochial system are what I consider desirable. I have employed thousands of workmen for many years, and have, from my experience, come to the conclusion that by these means their condition would be greatly bettered. 7929. What is your line of business ? — A cotton-spinner, manufacturer, and calico jirinter. 7930. Do you propose giving the able-bodied a legal claim to relief when not employed ! — No. In very urgent cases a provision might be necessary. We have seen the necessity for that more within the last few years than before. It would aggravate our difficulties, I think, if there were a legal claim. 7931. Do you consider the present mode of raising the money under the new act agree- able to the people, or is it obnoxious ! — I think it has been pretty well received altogether. It is much less obnoxious than the old system. 7932. Perhaps those who have gained are satisfied, and those who have lost are dissatis- fied ? — No ; there is a class of shopkeepers whose capital is not great, and who felt it at first. They pay lOQl. or 150/. of rent, while they are not worth much money. But as it applies to all shopkeepers, it must in the long-run make no difference to them. If it were possible to arrive at an absolute knowledge of the means and substance, and to assess parties accordingly, that would be the best mode, but that I hold to be impossible. Mr W. Brown. William Brown, Esq. of Kilmardiuny, Examined : — 7933. You have been for several years in the town council ? — I have. 7934. Are you an elder also? — Yes. 7935. In which parish? — The Tron paiish. I was also a deacon in St John's parish for three years, previous to 1823. 7936. You have taken a good deal of interest in the management of the poor ? — I have taken my share of attention and trouble in that matter. 7937. Are you in any situation in the town's hospital ? — Not at present. 7938. You have been ? — I have been more than once a director. POOR LAW INQUIRY CO]\CVIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 445 7039. Do you consider the aliment given to the poor generally sufficient in Glasgow? — Exjiminatioiis. In some cases I think it sufficient. In many cases I think it is not. _ Glasgow . 7040. Is there not a certain portion of the money which is left in the hands of the kirk- jj^ ^y ]3,.„„„. sessions to be distributed by them ! — There is. The arrangement is this :— Formerly the is April 1843, whole collection was paid into the funds of the town's hospital, and the sessions drew out monthly from the hospital what they disbursed. Two years ago a change was made. It was found that the collections were annually growing less and less, though the population was growing greater and richer, arising from an impression among parties that they were by the collections, simply saving the funds derived from the assessment, to \yhich all contributed. An arrangement was therefore made by which a certain sum, bearing a ' proportion to the collection raised at the various churches, on an average of the three preceding years, should be paid, as it still continues to be paid, to the town's hospital ; and it is a definite sum ; while each congregation disburses the remainder not to the poor as aliment, but for parochial schools under their management. 7941. Does it go entirely to schools ? — Entirely to schools and Sabbath schools. The session have also the charge of a great proportion of the pauperism in the parish ; and they draw directly upon the funds of the town's hospital every month, for whatever they require to pay out in addition to the stipulated sum, which they don't pay into the hospital, but retain in their own hands. 7942. Then they distribute that themselves? — The kirk-session distribute that them- selves. 71)43. Do they distribute it to persons who don't receive from the town's hospital, or do they give aid to some individuals as a sort of addition ? — To those who do not receive from the town's hospital. 7944. To those who do not receive alone ? — Yes. If there are exceptions, they are very rare. I have not met with six cases during the twenty-two years 1 have been an elder. The practice is, that widows with young families, those who are quite helpless, and those who require larger aliment, are left entirely to the town's hospital ; while people in the decline of life, and who can, from some means of their own, eke out a subsistence, are under the charge of the session. The allowances given by the session vary from 6s. down to Is. 6d. ; and if an elder considers the amount not sufficient, or if the pauper considers it not sufficient, a representation is made to the town's hospital, and they examine and allow more, or determine otherwise at their discretion. But they are careful to avoid allowing a pauper to draw from the two funds. 7945. Do you consider that the poor in the adjoining parishes in Glasgow are at present in a worse or better situation than they used to be ? — Of the surrounding parishes I cannot speak from personal knowledge. Of Glasgow I can speak ; and I must say I think they are in a worse situation. 7946. From what does that arise in your opinion ? — It is a difficult question. 7947. Are the allowances too small ? — I don't consider that it arises from that. 1 think it arises from the moral and economical state of the people themselves, and the system pursued by their employers. They live more up to their means, — they lay up less for the future. Their employers part with them more readily. People in the present state of society part with them the moment they don't want them, much more readily than in simpler times, when master and servant had more sympathy with each other. 7948. Is there a want of education for children in Glasgow ? — In the parish I am con- nected with, I am aware there is great want of education. 7949. Do you consider the want of education one cause of the deteriorated condition of the poor ? — It contributes certainly to the degradation of their religious and moral condition. 7950. Is there a great deal of intemperance ? — A great deal. 7951. Do you consider that to be on the increase or the decrease ? — I have not the means of exact information on that question. 7952. Do you consider the number of public houses too great? — Certainly. 7953. The licenses are under the control of the magistrates in the town ? — Subject to review in the justice of peace court, assembled in quarter sessions. There is an appeal to the justices of the county. 7954. You are a justice of the peace, — are you in the habit of attending the quarter sessions ? — I attend occasionally ; I am not able to do so regularly. 7955. Are there many instances in which licenses have been refused by the magistrates where the quarter sessions have granted them ? — I am aware there have been some. I disapproved myself of granting them. I thought the reasons sufficient on which the magis- trates had refused. 7956. You have been present when licenses were granted by the quarter sessions when they had been refused by the magistrates ? — Twice I have been so. 7957. Do you think it would be a proper and neces.sary thing in order to check the number, that the granting of licenses should be put entirely into the hands of the magis- trates ? — I think such an arrangement would most likely be attended with a good effect. 7958 Would not that require to be done within the whole parliamentary bounds of Glasgow ? — The way in which the licenses in the suburban burghs are obtained, is through the justices of the peace ; and whether the justices of the peace would exercise greater wisdom in granting licenses than the magistrates, I am not prepared to say. It would depend on the constitution of the body at the time. 7959. But you stated that the magistrates of the county granted licenses with greater facility than the magistrates of the city, and that you disapproved, — would you not approve 446 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exwtiiiiations. of the System in Glasgow being extended over the suburbs, with full powers to the magis- G luoow . trates of the city ? — You have drawn a little more from my answer than I intended to be >lr Brown, Understood ft'om it. I said, that in instances that came before me I disapproved They 18 April 1843. were cases of appeal, as to which I happened to concur with the magistrates in opinion. 79()0. Your opinion is, there are too many public houses ? — Yes. 7961. Under what control could you put the licensing, with the view of keeping the number of public houses at a reasonable amount ? — I have not considered that subject. 7962. Was there a full attendance at the reversal of the decision of the magistrates? — I should say the attendance was small — about eight. 7963. Do not the mngistrates of Glasgow attend the quarter-sessions? — No. I cannot say they ever attend. My impression is that I have seen one or two ; but they don't attend as a body, 7904. Would raising the license-duty have a good effect in checking the number of public houses ? — Very probably it would. A restriction that they should be proportioned to the population, might also have a good effect ; and raising the rent of the houses which should be permitted to be licensed, that is, fixing a higher minimum of rent on the houses proposed to be licensed. If you would allow me to recur to one question which you put some time ago, that is, as to one body being entrusted with the granting of licenses, I would say that it appears reasonable to me that it would be a right measure, 7965. Is there anything you have to suggest to the Commission on the subject of the poor generally ? — I am not prepared with anything. 7966. You stated some time ago that the moral and economical habits of the poor were unsatisfactory, — have you thought of any means which you would consider practicable for improving their moral and economical habits ? — Smaller parishes, and a greater number of efficient clergymen and schools, as well as churches, would be requisite. My experience, so far as I am acquainted with the subject, shows very strongly that such remedies are needed. 7907- Do you think it would be possible to manage the poor in Glasgow by kirk-sessions alone ? — Not with parishes of the present size. 7968. Suppose the parishes were of a moderate and reasonable size, with the collections at the church doors, as in the parish of St John's, and in the course of one or two years ? — I doubt it very much. My belief is that it could not be done. Much might be done as regards the management by kirk-sessions ; it would certainly be the best way, if you were to consider the moral effect of the system on the people themselves. On the other hand , there is an increasing class in Glasgow of worthless poor, whom it would be impossible to manage without some general agency ; for no sooner are they discovered in one district than they shift to another ; and in that way an elder who is acquainted only with a limited district, is frequently imposed upon, and one after another can be thus imposed on in suc- cession, unless there is some surveyors who have an extensive charge, and know the poor personally. 79(59. But if the means of moral instruction were made fully adequate to the wants of Glasgow, would you not expect that class to be greatly diminished .'' — They would greatly diminish. At the same time Glasgow is open to receive worthless and unemployed per- sons from all parts of the country, and from Ireland. The most difficult among the poor to manage are those who have no certain dwelling-place. 7970. Would an alteration of the law of settlement have any effect upon that ? — I have not studied the law of settlement sufficiently to say what would be the effect of an altera- tion. A longer period before acquiring a settlement would be an advantage. Wednesdai/, Idtk April 1843» MKIIBEIJS PRESENT, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., M.P. Edward Twisleton, Esq., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick 51'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson, HENRY HOME DRUMMOND, ESQ,, M.P., IN THE CHAIR, Trin. M'Farlan. Tlie vcry Fev. Pnncipal M^Farlan, Examined ;— 19tb April 184S. 7971. {Mr Drummond.) — How long have you been in official situations in Glasgow ? — Very nearly for twenty years I have been principiil of the University ; and between eighteen and nineteen minister of the High Church. 7972. In the course of that time you have had occasion to be pretty well acquainted with the state of the poor in your parish ?— Of coiu'se. I have endeavoured to pay attention to them. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 447 7973. The poor of your parish are, to a certain extent, taken charge of by the kirk-aes- Kxainiimtions. aioj) ?— They are, Glasgow. 7i)74. What is their present state compared witli tliat in which they were when you first p^j^ M'Farlan. knew them? — There is a nunjerical increase, but it is not large. 19 April 1843. 7975. Is the condition of them individually better or worse? — Taking the parish at large, I should say worse for the last two years than previously ; but j^ossibly those cases which come to the session are not materially altered. 7970. From what reason ? — The extreme cases go not to the session but to the town hospital. 7977. To what do you attribute the change for the worse ? — .First, the population has in- creased considerably. Supposing the same per centage of pauperism to exist, the increase of population must be accompanied by an increase of pauperism. On the other hand, the stag- nation of trade has made the condition of the labouring poor much worse than it M'as, and has brought many of them to apply for relief. 7978. The amount of relief is increased ?^-Lately. Formerly the session granted at most Is. 3d. a week ; whenever necessity required more, they recommended the case to the con- sideration of the town's hospital. Within the last six or eight months the amount given by the session has been increased to Is. 6d. a week. 7979. The price of provisions is diminished of late ?— For some months past very consif derably. 7980. Is there a considerable number of able-bodied persons out of employment ? — Yes, there is. 798L Their number is diminished? — Their number is diminished, but there is still a con- siderable number unemployed. 7982. Of what description of persons do the able-bodied unemployed consist ?— They are chiefly, I think, artizans, weavers, workers in cotton mills, ironfounders, and some common laboui-ers, A good many shoemakers have been unemployed, 7983. Would you approve of any provision being made by law for able-bodied persona out of employment? — That is a question I scarcely feel prepared to give an opinion on. I rather doubt the expediency of it, but I shoidd not like to give a decided opinion on the subject. 7984. You would doubt the expediency of giving them a legal right or claim? — Yes. 7985. But woidd you have the same doubt as to giving a discretionary power of supplying them, without giving them a legal right to relief? — It certainly would be much less objec- tionable to give the authorities the power of supplying them in cases of emergency. At the game time, I can see some inconvenience arising from that measure. 7986. Would you recommend any increase of the present allowances to the poor on the permanent list ? — No, I think not. I would recommend greater promptitude in relieving cases of extreme distress, but I believe the relief is adequate to the necessities of parties when it is afforded, 7987. Do you think sufficient provision is made for investigating cases?— I rather think a little more extensive machinery for that purpose might be useful, in order to administer more promj)t relief in cases of extreme exigency. 7988. An additional number of persons for the investigation of cases ? — I think it requires an additional person, and the rule ought to be established, that cases should be attended to immediately, and not allowed to lie over for days and weeks. 7989. Do you think assistance to the poor is administered imjiartially, with reference to nation or religion ? — I believe it is, 7990. Is there no prejudice against the Irish?- — No ; not on account of their being Irish, There is a prejudice against those who endeavour to impose on the authorities by claiming a settlement, when they have it not ; and the majority of these being from a distance, and chiefly from Ireland, will cause theu- applications to be scrutinized more closely than those of others. 7991. Is there not power in the elders to administer relief, without delay, in cases of dis- tress ? — There is. 7992. Does not that, in some measure, meet the difficulty to which you adverted ? — There are many eases in which the extent of relief they are entitled to give is quite inadequate. 7993. But is the relief they are entitled to give not sufficient during the investigation ? — Not always. 7994. {Dr M'Farlan.) — Have you made any arrangement with the town hospital, as to giving them a certain proportion of the collections ?— Yes. 7995. What is the nature of that arrangement ? — We pay over to the town's hospital the average of our collections for a certain number of years, retaining for immediate purposes whatever exceeds that average, which with us is taken on three years. 7996. To what purpose is the remainder applied? — Partly to casual cases, cases of stran- gers who have not acquired a residence, or a claim to relief by residence, but who still are here in exti-eme distress ; and partly to the education of the children of the poor, 7997. By paying the school fees, or supporting schools? — We have a sessional school for that purjiose. 7998. And the money you speak of is devoted to the support of the sessional school? — Part of it ; and another school is now erecting. There is also one at Springbum, to which an allowance is made from that source. 7999. Do you think, with that additional school, that sufficient provision is made for the education of the children of the poor in your parish ? — I should rather like to extend it. But this additional school wiH be a very great acquisition. 448 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 8000. Is the sessional school chiefly for the children of the poor ? — Chiefly for the children Glasgow. of the poor, the w.agos being low. P-iii M'Farlan 8001. But for all classes? — For all classes. Ill April 1843. 8002. What are the fees ? — Two shillings a quarter ; but they are higher for writing and other branches. 8003. Have you reason to believe that the parents of the children of the poor pay cheer- fully ? — Not universally by any means. 8004. AVould you recommend a reduction ? — No ; those who pay are much more regular and make much more progress than the others. 8005. I mean reduction, not abolition? — The charge is scarcely more than IJd. per week. 8001). {Mr Drummo7id.) — Is there anything else paid out of the money left at the disposal of the kirk-session ?— Nothing, except what is given for the casual poor, and the education of children. 8007. Is there anything you would think proper to suggest on this subject ? — No ; I am not aware of any suggestion which I have thought would come properly under the cognizance of this board. 8008. {Mr Tivisleton.) — Would you think it desirable in any way to alter the constitution of the body entrusted with the management of relief in Glasgow ? — I am not prepared to suggest any material alteration on its constitution. It is composed of a large body of citizens, who go through a great deal of labour in the discharge of their duties. 8009. Do you think it would answer If you were to dispense with an assessment, and to support the poor on the church door collections ? — I do not. An assessment has been too long carried on here, and Is too much Incorporated M-ith the habits of the people, to admit of such a change. The experiment of supporting the poor on the church door collections has been tried In four or five parishes very unsuccessfully. 8010. Do you think the management might be entrusted to the ku-k-sesslons exclusively ? — ^I have no doubt it would be done by them with great humanity, and as efficiently as now ; but without the power of assessing they could not do It efi'ectuaUy, because they could not conlmand the necessary funds. 8011. Supposing It were proposed to divide among them the money raised by assessment, would there be any objection on the part of the rate-payers ? — I think there would. A large portion of the rate-payers are Dissenters, and they would object to the money from the assessment passing through the hands of the session, all of whom belong to the Established Church. 801 2. Would the Dissenters object If a certain proportion were given to them for their kirk-scsslon ? — I don't think there would be any excuse for their objection. 801o. Would the rate-payers object on the ground of their not being represented In the body entrusted with the administration of relief? — No ; I don't think they would. They don't object to the present board on that account. 8014. {Mr Campbell.) — There are now Dissenters in the town's hospital engaged in the administration of the funds ? — Yes, many. Br J. Smyth. Dr John Smyth, Minister of St George's, Exammed : — 8015. {Br MFarlan.) — You are minister of St George's parish, Glasgow ? — Yes. 8016. How long have you been so? — For twenty years past In February. I was or- dained in Febniary 1823. 8017. You have attended to the administration of the funds for the poor by your session ? — Yes, I have. 8018. Will you state what Is the form or mode of application by persons wishing relief from the session ? — The form at present is, that on an application being made to any of the ciders, the case is remitted to the Inspector for the town's hospital for examination, and if approved of by him, It is taken up and reUeved. 8019. Must the cu-cumstances be stated in a petition from the applicant ?— That is the general course ; but verbal applications are attended to, and a record is kept of them. But the general mode is to give In a written application. 8020. Is that the universal mode In sessions of the city? — I understand it is. 8021. What is the lowest and the highest sums you are in the practice of giving out of the frmds at the disposal of the session for the relief of the poor ? — 4s. is the lowest now. There are certain cases, perhaps, in which 3s. 6d. only would be given ; but 4s. may be stated as the lowest, and 6s. Is the highest. We are not permitted to exceed Gs. 8022. What classes are provided for In that way ? — A veiy large proportion are widows, and people thrown out of employment— aged. Infirm people.' There is a very considerable number of widows and oi-phans. 8023. How old may the oldest uidlvlduals receiving relief be ? — We have them at very advanced periods of life — from 80 to 90 ; but we very seldom take on the case of a young person, unless It is one of peculiar distress. 8024. Then you don't contemplate the sum given to old persons as their only means of relief? — I believe many of them have very slender resources otherwise. I don't understand how they exist on what they get — the provision Is so slender. 8025. Is it generally known to the session that they have other means of being provided with the necessaries of life ? — In certain cases It is — in others we have no means of ascertain- ing what additional resources they may have. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 449 8026. But if you found a case where that small pittanoe was insufficient for the indlvi- K-iaminaiiong, dual, what would you do ? — We should endeavour to afford relief by private means, or by (Glasgow. sending them to the town's hospital. Cases of a very urgent kind are remitted to the town's TT hos|)ital, and they give larger rplief than we are permitted to do. ly Aprii"'l84!i. 8027. Do all the sessions in the city make an arrangement, by which they give a certain praj)ortion of their funds to the town's hosi)ital ? — That is the practice with us in St George's session. 8028. What Is the rule with regard to the proportion given ? — I have brought a statement on the subject. There are about 120 regular paupers at present on the roll, and that has been, I believe, the average for a considerable number of years. There is paid from the collections at the church doors 138/. 6s. 3d. ; from the hos{)ital funds 314^. 10s. 4d. ; between 400/. and 500/. are annually collected for relief, a portion of which is retained by the kirk-session for other charitable objects, by arrangement with the town's hospital. The stipulated sum paid to the town's hospital is 138/. 6s. 3d. ; the surplus of the collections, 110/. 19s. G^d. — that is appropriated to cases of destitute persons connected with the congregation, to education, and to other objects, at the discretion of the session. 8029. And how do you keep accounts with the town's hospital : do you pay out in the meantime the proportion which you arc entitled to administer, or do you give it all into the town's hospital in the first instance ? — The treasurer gives them this sura annually, in monthly payments, out of the collections. 8030. lie retains it, I suppose ; and the elders apply it : you do not first pay it into the town's hosjiital ? — There is a certain sum kept from the town's hospital. 8031. Do the session pay it over, or do they give credit for it ? — They pay it over regu- larly, Mr Church pays the annual sum, monthly, out of the collections to the town's hos- pital. The managers of the hospital used to receive the whole ; now they receive only a part ; and we receive from them what is necessary for the relief of the poor in the parish. 8032. Is a state of the accounts made up annually betwixt the kirk-session and the town'a hospital ? — Yes, I think so. It is, I believe, only two years, or little more, since the arrange- ment was entered into. 8033. lias the arrangement worked well ? — Very well. 8034. lias it had the effect of raising the amount of the collections at the church doors ? — Our collections have rather increased than otherwise. They are still very good, however — betwixt 300/. and 400/. annually, including extra collections at the sacraments. 8035. Was not the object of the arrangement to raise the collections ? — That was the ob- ject. We have several extra collections ; we had one not long ago of 100 guineas, but that wr J Smyth. 8050. You think they were as comfortable in their circumstances during the working of 19 April le-iu. the system, as they are now ? — Yes, on the whole ; but they are misenibly provided for as it is. I visited a very large section of my parish within the last few months ; no doubt the state of trade had produced a very bad effect, but I found, altogether, that their resources were total!}' inadequate. 8051. Including the other sources? — Yes, I think they are in a very sad state. 8052. Had the pauf)ers increased in proportion to the population ? — I think not more. 8053. The return to the old system had no influence ? — I think not. The fact that we have 120 enrolled paupers on our list, is pre8uraj)tive proof that it had not. 8054. When you say 120, you mean on the sessional roll? — I mean on the sessional roll. 8055. Not those on the town's hospital ? — No. 8056. Do you know the total number of paupers in the parish ? — No ; there is a great improvement on the condition of the poor in some of the quoad sacra ]>arishes, where reli- gious instruction has been diffused. In St Peter's and Brownfield, the whole tone and feeling have, to a certain extent, been elevated, and the very large school accommodation has increased the means of instruction. There are four schools which the session has esta- blished, with government aid ; two of them are in Brownfield, and are still identified with our own session. There is a very marked improvement in that district, from the establishment of schools and the provision for christian instruction. I could advert to these two parishes particularly, as I have occasion to kno^v how matters stand. And I had occasion, from visiting the district next Brownfield, last autumn, to observe, that the families who had availed themselves of the means of education and christian instruction placed within their reach, had altogether a much better tone of feeling than those not so circumstanced. Mr lieid and Mr Arnot had a large portion of the parish, which is still under my charge, and those who have been getting instruction under them are much improved in their tone and feeling. 8057. (Mr Drum7nond.)^Arc these Scotch, or arc a number of them Ix'ish? — There are not more than 500 or 600 Irish in the parish altogether. Most of them are Iloman Catholics. 8058. Do none of the Roman Catholic children attend these schools ? — They did, but very few are in attendance noAV. They have schools of their own, but these are very miser- ably taught. There was one in my parish which I have been permitted to examine, but the whole style of education was very low indeed. 8059. What are the fees in the schools of the quoad sacra churches ? — From 2s. to 3s. 6d. is the average per quarter ; 28. is the lowest. A few receive instruction in higher branches, and pay 4s. or more. 8060. And you can perceive that, in addition to the moral and religious instruction, benefit has flowed to the poor from these means of education ? — -I can speak of that particularly, as I have paid particular attention to the subject. We had a clothing society for three years, which was the means of sending a number of poor children to the schools, and it has done great good to parents as well as children. 8061. Do you think it possible, by an enlargement of the provision for the poor, to ' improve their condition without religious instruction ? — -They should go hand in hand. 8062. You would ascribe more efficacy to the latter than to the former ? — I would have both, but without religious instruction, the other is of no permanent utility. 8063. Are the houses of the parents, whose children attend your schools, neater and cleaner in api)earance than others ? — Yes, they are. 8064. Then the improvement is not merely in moral tone, but in economical habits, and in comfort ? — -Yes, I have been particularly struck with the change for the better in these respects. They feel more interest in their children, and take delight in hearing them their lessons at home. 8065. Do you conceive the means of instruction sufficiently ample ? — By no means — it should be made more than double. 8066. And that, if adequate, would have the effect of diminishing pauperism to a great extent, of cutting it off at the source ? — To a very great extent. I believe that a great many of its evils arise from moral causes. Last year 1 never witnessed anything so dismal aa the state of the poor ; but trade is reviving. All we receive for education, and from Bell's fund, is betwixt 60^. and 70/. a year. The other provision for the same object is entirely derived from benevolent persons connected with the congregation. 8067. {Dr M'Farlan.) — From what sources were the schools built ? — By subscription. We raised 1300Z., and received an equal sum from government. 8068. {Mr Drummond.) — Have you seen instances in which the improvement of the child has acted on the parents ? — I have marked a very beneficial influence from the erection of these schools and the provision of churclies. During the last six or seven years I think it is very remarkable. The parish has been more completely overtaken. Besides our ovra cldei's, the quoad sacra elders have been acting as deacons. W^e have a staff of from forty to fifty in all for the parish. 8069. {Mr Twisleton.) — Was the rate of allowance in St George's greater or less under the voluntary system than the allowance at present received from the town's hospital ? — It has been increased about Is. a month for the last few years ; 48. is generally the minimum, Bs. is the maximum. 8070. I understood you thought the allowance in St George's by no means adequate ? — I thiidi it by no means adequate. 8071. Supposing the collections at the church doors were sufficient to maintain the poor, POOR LAW mQUIRY COMmSSION FOR SCOTLAls^D. 451 if tlie population were tolerably stationary, do you think there would be difficulty or imprac- ticability in proceeding on the same system, in case of the population increasing with any rapidity ? — Not if there were a sufficient number of agents. I am satisfied that is the best way of working it. 8072. You think the increase of the collections would be commensurate with the Increase of po{)ulation ? — I should not like to trust altogether to that, but I feel certain there M'ould be an increase if the system were properly worked, 8073. You had an assessment at first ? — We had an assessment all along. I feel satisfied, if the assessment were taken off, the collections would be greatly larger in our parish, than they have been ; but whether the increase would be commensurate with the increase of the population, I could not venture to say. 8074. {Mr Drummond.) — Is there anything else it would occur to you to suggest ? — No. 8075. {Dr M'Farlan.) — Do you approve of the present mode of administration — its being divided betwixt the town's hospital and the kirk-session ? — I think there is a good deal of hard dealing with the poor at present. I feel they have many difficulties to contend with, and that relief can be procured only by a sort of circuitous mode at present. Exnniinalione. Glasgow. Br J. Smyth. 19 April 1843. Dr James Watson, Examined ; Dr J. Watson. Yes. Before that I was In the col- 8076. (A{r Drummond.) — You are an elder in St Paul's ?- 8077. You have been so for some time ? — For three years lege parish. 8078. Was St Paid's one of those in which Dr Chalmers' system was tried ? — No. 8079. Have you been professionally employed In attending the poor? — I never was a district surgeon ; but have held several offices in the Royal infii-mary, and am at present physician to the Fever Hospital there. 8080. Have you turned your attention to epidemic disease ? — A good deal. 8081. What do you conceive to be the cause of the origin of epidemic? — Whatever we may think of the cause of its origin, the causes of the spread of epidemic are want of clean- liness, bad air, an accumulated population within small bounds, and the prevalence of bad habits — these are the prolific causes of the spread of epidemic disease. 8082. Are you, in making this statement, proceeding on your own experience, or on theory ? — On my own observation in a very great measure ; though I have not been a district sur- geon, I have had a good deal of Intercourse with the poor. There are different views with regard to the origin of epidemics. 8083. Do you think the causes you mentioned the origin of them ?^It is difficidt to point out what Is the origin, but these are the causes of their extension. 8084. Is there much fever in Glasgow at present ? — Rather more of late. We have had, during the last eighteen months, less fever than for several years before. At present the epidemic Is Increasing a little. AVhether this is to be ascribed to the late changeable weather inducing catarrhal attacks, in some respects resembling fevers, or whether they arise from any other cause, the tact is that we have more fever cases just now than we have had for the last eigliteen months. 8085. For the last eighteen months there has been a great pressure on the poor of Glas- gow, and a great want of employment ? — Yes. 8086. How do you account for the fact that fevers have been less prevalent ? — It is very difficult ; but there have been less fever and malignant disease over the whole country, as well as In Glasgow, with all the pressure on the poor. Some people think this has arisen from the sobriety which the pressure has Induced; I am Inclined to think there Is some truth in that supposition. 8087. Can you say from your own observation that there has been a great increase in so- briety ? — I cannot say so from my own observation, but I should think It likely. 8088. From the want of the means of Intoxication ? — From the want of the means of In- toxication, I should think it likely. 8089. Do you think persons, weakened by Intemperate habits, were disposed to catch In- fection ? — -Yes, fever especially. 8090. There was an Increased number of deaths in 1837 : how do you explain that ? — From the very great amoimt of disease. The proportion of deaths to disease In different epidemics is not very diflf'crcnt. I was glancing over the list of proportions some days ago, and I think there was a little more in the proportion of deaths, but an Immensely greater amount of disease during that year, which is very difficult to account for. 8091. Was there destitution? — There was better trade at that time than since, but the dwellings of the poor, their crowded state, and their very bad habits, and. In consequence of these bad habits, their want of means to supply themselves better with necessaries — all these would co-operate. 8092. Do you see anything In the Increased prosperity of that time, or of any time, tend- ing to Increase disease ? — I sliould think that Increased prosperity might have an effect, if the parties were of Intemperate habits. 80i)3. Supposing that prosperity led to a greater Influx of population Into Glasgow ? — I phould think it would have an Influence. New comers to any place are more susceptible of disease, than those who are habituated to it. 8034. {Afr Twisleton.) — Is it your opinion that crowding in lodging places would inade- 452 jrmUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 4 Examinations. Olasuow. i>r J. Watson. I » April 1843. quately account for the increase of fever? — I think it must be considered a main cause — the crowdinrj of lodginof-houses connected with the other causes I mentioned — crowding; very much. Nothing deteriorates the air more than a number crowdnig witlnn small rooms, and of course, whenever they aa"e so crowded, if there is fever there, whatever be its origin, it most decidedly will spread. 8095. Without reference to lodging places, would the great influx of strangers be alone sufficient to account Xor fever ? — I don't know that it would accoimt for it alone. No doubt new comers are more liable to catch disease ; but I do not think the mere influx of strangers would be alone sufficient to account for fever. I do not think you could suppose the mere influx of strangers could, by any j)ossibility, be so much greater during 1837-8 as to account for it. The immense amount of fever during 1837 must be supposed to be connected with some of those strange circumstances relating to climate, which make fever prevail more at one season than at another. 809G. {Mr Drummund.^ — Did you ever know in any case an influx of strangers operating to spread fever, without any concomitant circumstances existing at the same time ?— No. Want, depression of mind, and various other similar causes make strangers liable to disease. 8097. {Mr Iwisleton.) — Though you are not a district surgeon, have you visited the poor much in their ow-n dw'ellings? — A good deal. 8098. Amongst others, parties in receipt of parochial relief ? — Yes. 8099. Is it yom" opinion that the allowances are generally adequate ? — I think not. 8100. What do you think is the effect of the allowances being inadequate on the moral habits and physical condition of the poor? — On an extensive class, that of widows and orphans, the inadequate allowances, with reference to their physical condition, must be pro- ductive of the most baneful effects. - 8101. Do you find any difficulty in treating them properly on account of their poverty? — There must be great difficidty. I have not myself had occasion to experience much of that difficulty, but I know it well. I have occasionally, as an elder, and also with district surgeons, gone to see cases, and I must say, the difficulty of treating them must be greatly increased under the circumstances. It must be observed that the facility of their introduc- tion to the infirmary alleviates the pressure of disease very much, and the town's hospital, as well as the parishes, does afford much greater facilities for obtaining medical attendance and medicines, cordials, &c., than used to be the case. I believe, besides, that their allowances are more liberal on the whoie than they used to be ; but I am still of ojiinjon, that the allow- ances are too small for the poor. 8102. {Dr M'Farlan.) — Do you speak of the town's hospital, or the kirk-sessions ? — In the town's hospital, the administration is considerably improved of late ; they are more liberal than they used to be. One thing, the medical attendance is a great deal more sufficient for the poor than it used to be, even in propoiiion to the population. 8103. But with the increase that has been made, do you still think the allowances too small ? — I should think so. I am not prepared to say what allowances the town's hospital would give in cases of sickness. 2s. 6d. a week is regarded as a pretty fair allowance, but it is a great deal too small w'here there is sickness. 8104. Taking into consfideration the other sources of income ? — Where there is a wife or child merely ailing, the allowance, with the husband's income, would be enough ; but I am sujiposing a case where the working member of the family is ailing. I have not had access for a long time to know exactly about the matter ; but the general impression I liave is, that the allowance is small. The knowledge I have of cases is more with refereticc to the [joor under the kirk-session than those under the town's hospital, and there I think the allowance even to the aged is too small. The allowance to widows and orphans is decidedly too small. 8105. In your visits among the poor, have any unrelieved cases come under your observa- tion ? — -That could not occur in my own case ; 1 would make an effort to procure relief. 8106. Supposing it were not your own district as an elder? — I have not an opportunity of seeing the state of matters out of my own district. I should think such cases very few. 8107. Your objection is, that they are not sufficiently relieved? — Not sufficiently re- lieved. 8108. (Mr Twisleton.) — Supposing in two large towns the proportion of fever cases differed very greatly in amount, to what general cause would you be mclined to attribute such differ- ence ? — I would inquire whether the lodging for the accommodation of the people was such as to crowd them ; whether there was great difference in their mode of occupation ; or whether their habits were in any j)articular so dissimilar as to suggest the cause of such diffei-ence in the prevalence of fever. I should particularly think, if there was any special difference in the circumstances of the two ])laccs, leading to such opposite results, it would be more in the crowding of the one as compared with the crowding in the other. Their habits, I should think, would also make an essential difference. 8109. Are you acquainted with Manchester? — I have been there. 8110. Comjiaring them, could you account for the occurrence of more fever cases in Glas- gow than in Manchester, in the proportion of their populations ? — I should think there is less crowding in Manchester. I am not much acquainted with Manchester or Liverpool ; but I should think, from looking at these towns, tliat the peojile are less crowded together than in Glasgow. 8111. You would not regard destitution as the sole or main cause? — I would not regard destitution in itself as a sole, but certainly an efficient cause. There are circumstances which ought to make the number of the poor in Glasgow greater than in Manchester. We have here a city which ia both a sea-port and a manufactuiing place ; and the increase of POOR LAW INQUIRY COJtlMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 453 people who cannot find work must in oonscquenoe be greater than in Manchester. I should think the manufactures there more pernuinent. In Glasgow I should think there was a greater proportion of parties coming into the town, and that they are much more crowded together. 8112. {Mr Campbell.) — How long were you in Manchester ?— I never saw it but in passing through it. I remained only for a few hours. The look of the town appeared to me such as I have mentioned. 8113. (Dr APFarlan.) — Do you think any addition should be madeto the provision by the hospital for the medical relief of the poor ? — Tlic infirmary here is incapable of containing all the cases in the time of epidemic. It was found necessary to increase the accommodation in 1837 ; and another fever hospital would have been built at that time, had not the opidemio subsided very much after that period ; and the funds of the hospital were not such as to make it a convenient thing to build at the time ; but certainly, if we had another such epidemic, we should require an additional fever hospital. 8114. Would a temporary hospital of tliat kind be easily procured? — There was a diffi- culty in getting a place in town at the time when additional accommodation was required. People had a great aversion to have a fever hospital near them. That feeling, and the diffi- culty of getting an unoccupied place, would make it difficult to procure a suitable situation. 811.'). Would it not be desirable if an addition were made to the fever hospital, that it should bo made at the infirmary, so as to have the whole under one naanagement ? — Upon the whole, I think it would be desirable to have them together, Examinations. (jli.Asiiovr. Dr J. Watson. 19 A|.ril I84:i. M?' William Church, Examined :— 8116. (Mr Drummond.) — You are kirk-treasurer of St George's parish ? — Yes. 8117. Would you explain to us the arrangement betwixt the town's hospital and the parish as to the collections ? — About five years ago, we made an an-angement with the town's hospital ; taking the average of the previous three years. We pay them two-thirds of that, and keep the remaining third for parochial purposes and schools. 8118. Was that to be a permanent arrangement? — So long as the parties should agree. 8119. Was the average of three years taken to fix the sum to be paid afterwards ? — Yes. The arrangement has only lasted for two or three years at most, and the i-esult turns out very nearly in the same proportion ever since it began. 8120. Is the money actually paid over ? — Paid every month. When the list for the monthly payments is made up, the money is paid by me from the collections, and the balance is got from the town's hospital. / 8121. The twelfth part of the yearly sum is paid every month ?— 10^. lis. 3d. is paid by me every month. 8122. Are there any other funds besides those from the church doors that you have to deal with ? — Yes ; we have an allowance from the general session every quartoi'— 24/. a year — derived from mortifications. Each parish gets the same allowance out of these for the support of schools, 8123. With regard to that part of the collections which is left at the disposal of the kirk- session, is it applied to any objects but the relief of the poor? — It is applied for school fees for poor children. They pay a trifle a month ; but generally the children arc educated gratis. 8124. How is the precentor paid ?— By the town — 15/. a year. He gets nothing from the poor funds or from the collections. There is a subscription also for the precentor, who is better, or supposed to be better, than his neighbours. 8125. {Mr Twisleton.) — Were you in St George's when the voluntary systaaa was tried f —Yes. 8126. ^Yhat was the cause of its abandonment, in your opinion ? — ^We did not raise money enough. 8127. Supposing you had not had to contribute to the assessment, could you have ma- naged the poor?— People are just in the habit of giving a trifle on going into church, and it does not appear that they are at all inclined to increase their contributions. The coUectiona are very steady. 8128. That is with the assessment; but if there were none? — I think there would be more liberal collections in that case. 8129. AYoidd you be able to manage the poor on that system ? —I should think so. The rich felt themselves very much aggrieved under the old system of assessment. It is different now. 8130. You think you would be able to manage the poor on that system, notwithstanding the increase of population ? — ^I should think so. The increase of population has been very great, but not in our parish. 8131. Do you think it possible, in the whole of Glasgow, to abolish assessments, and to support the poor on the collections ? — No. 8132. 'VMiat are the peculiar circumstances in your parish which would make it possible to support the poor on the collections ? — It is a richer parish, and is occupied with much better buildings and streets than most of the other parishes of Glasgow. The consequence is, that om- poor don't increase so much. Mr W. Church. £xuninatioii8. Glaboow. Ml- W. «:hurch. Ill April IB43. 454 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOllE THE 8133. ( fh M'Farlan.y — Does not the parish extend to the Brooraielaw ? — Yes ; that is one poor district. 8134. There are a good many poor in that district? — Yes. 8135. And in the streets branching ofi' from the Broomielaw ? — Yes. There are some lands and liouses wliich are occupied by the poor ; but, generally spcsiking, they are rather good houses. Mr G. Paisley. Mr Gavin Paisley, Examined : — 8136. (Afr Campbell.) — You are connected with one of the district savings' banks? — Yes. 8137. In what district? — Partick. 8138. Have the deposits increased in that bank lately, or have they diminished ? — They have diminished during the last year. 8139. Were they increasing or diminishing in the previous years ? — Our agency com- menced only in 1839. The first year showed the largest amount of deposits. 8140. There are various classes that deposit money in your bank ? — There are. 8141. Which class deposits the greatest sum in proportion to their numbers ? — I believe domestic servants contribute most, and the working classes. 8142. Do the superior class of artizans, — those receiving the highest wages, — depwsit much ? — I should think almost all our depositors belong to the better class of working people. 8143. AVhat do you mean by the better class of working people. Do you mean those who have the highest wages, or those who are most temperate in their habits ? — Those of most respectable character, so far as can be judged by their outward appearance. I have no means of knowing their wages. 8144. Do you come much in contact with those who deposit in your bank ? — They are almost wholly connected with the village, and in general known to me personally. 8145. Do you find, after they have begun, that they have a great incliration to go on depositing ? — They generally have ; though many of our depositors have left the village, and have withdrawn their savings. 8146. Do you attribute the withdrawal of their savings to their leaving the village, or to any other cause ? — A considerable number have withdrawn from temporary circumstances. A good deal of buildinril 184:;. them, and can distinguish those who were in the free school at once from others, and also those who were in the Sabbath school. 8220. And are you satisfied that the improvement of education would have an important bearing upon their condition in life, so as to elevate that condition ? — Not a doubt of it. 8221. (Mr Ticisleton.)~^\N lih regard to the friendly societies, do they make provision for widows? — The Odd Fellows make such a provision, to defray expenses of sick-bed and funerals, they are all established on an erroneous principle, not having contributions equal to their expenditure. They are not able to keep to the amount of aliment which is pro- posed when the societies are started. They have all funds. By exceedingly good management, and reducing the payments so as to bring them down to the income, they have all succeeded in accumulating funds. I would confine myself, perhaps, to the three friendly benevolent societies ; all of them have funds ; one has property yielding about 30/. ; the others have some hundred pounds of money ; and they are proposing just now a union among them all. 8222. How many do you think, in your parish, belong to friendly societies, in which a provision is made for widows ? — I don't know the number iu the Odd Fellows ; which is the only one that makes provision for that. 8223' What would a widow receive from the Odd Fellows ?— .She would receive 121. ; but there is no permanent provision for widows in Pollockshaws. 8224. Is there a permanent provision for old age? — Yes, there is what is called super- annuated aliment. 8225. Do you think the labouring classes in your parish could make a sufficient pro- vision for widows.' — They must be very much pinched just now ; and the general condition of the working classes must be getting worse ; so that they are less able to make such a provision. 822(i. In ordinary times, would they be able to do so? — I am rather inclined to think not. The rate of wages is not such among the weavers as I think would enable them to provide any permanent fund for widows. Mr U. Macliup. Ji^r David Maclnre, Examined : — 8227. {Mr Drummottd.) — You are a director of the town's hospital from the general kirk- session ?— Yes. 8228. What is the nature of the arrangement made betwixt the town's hospital and the general session, about the collections ? — I understand the collections at the church doors are paid over to the directors of the town's hospital. 8229. Not the whole of them ? — The whole of them. 8230. Are you speaking of the parishes in the royalty ? — Of the parishes in the royalty. 8231. Have you an opportunity of knowing from your situation what takes place with regard to that money, which is paid over to the town's hospital from the general session ? — I know that the money collected at the church doors, is paid over to the directors, and disbursed by them among the poor, ^232. Is there no portion left in the hands of the general session? — There is a small I)ortion, I understand, kept for the purpose of education and christian instruction within each parish. In St David's, with which I am connected, we pay 60/. a year to the town's hospital, and perhaps we collect in a year about 80/. The 20/. goes to promote religious and secular instruction among the poor parishioners. 8233. By what rule do you keep that exact sum ? — We inform the congregation that we have a sum to make up yearly for the town's hospital. 8234. But what sum?— Say 60/. 8235. How do you fix that amount ? — We go back for a course of years, and show the town's hospital directors what sum we have been collecting in that period ; and then we gay, •' What will you take as a fixed permanent sum ?" 8236. But that is made every year? — No ; it was made once with us. 8237. This arrangement was made once for all about three years ago ? — Once for all for St David's parish. 8238. Was it only a particular proportion you agreed to give, or was it a sum taken at random ? — We did not take it at random ; we calculated what we got from the congrega- tion, and we thought we would stimulate the congregation to greater exertions, if they knew that a part of the collections was to be applied for the christian education of the parish. 8239. Then you thought that the one was a reasonable sum to pay, and the other to keep, and the town hospital agreed with you ? — Yes. ><240. But there was no proportion of the collections taken ? — The collections were declining every year, in consequence of the people not giving. I believe the town's hospital were gainers by the arrangement, for the collections would soon have gone to a nullity. The assessment, which had been formerly on means and substance, was put upon rental ; and in consequence, the people refrained from giving at the church doors. We made the arrangement to encourage the people to give at the church doors, telling them that whatever they gave above what wivs set apart for the town's hospital, would go for the christian instruction of the poor. 8241. Is it sufficient? — No, we would require more. 8242. Are there a number of children who are not educated ? — Imperfectly educated. ^Ve have Sabbath schools to maititain from this 20/. — that is one part of our outlay,— the POOR LAW INQUIRY CO:m:MISSION for SCOTLAND. 459 rentals of Sabbath school-rooms. And as to the week-day instruction of the children of poor people, I think everyone, who has a mind to have it, may get it. No difficulty stands in the way, because we instruct them for nothing, sending them to our parochial school. 8248. But I understand you to say, that the means of instruction were deficient ? — I should rather have said, that education was deficient, not so much from the want of means, as carelessness on the part of some parents and children to receive it. 8244. Then there are children in the parish not sufficiently instructed ? — Yes, from the above cause. 8245. Are there many parish paupers in St David's, — persons depending upon parochial assistance ? — About eighty. 824(). Are these se.ssional poor, or on the town's hospital? — Sessional poor. 8247. Entirely ? — Yes ; there are some paid by the hospital belonging to the parish ; but I refer to the sessional poor. 8248. What is your office about the Barony parish ? — I merely sit there at the monthly meetings as an heritor. I was only recently appointed as one of the committee of heritors that sit upon the cases of the poor once a month. If there is any change in the poor laws introduced, the industrious poor, who partly pay the assessment, deserve the highest con- sideration. There is above one-half of the poor made so by their own profligacy and vice. Many of those who pay, who are the virtuous poor, are as badly off as those who receive the assessment, and I know they are going into smaller houses, and crowding two or three families together in one house, to avoid, not the poor assessment only, but the other local taxes. Kxaininations. Glasgow. Mr I). Macliire. lit April li!4a.. Mr James Sommemlle, Manufacturer, Examined : — Mr Sommerville. 8249. {Mr Twisleton.) — You are a master manufacturer? — I am engaged in cotton-spin- ning and power-loom weaving. 8250. Can you give us any information, to the effect that people come here to obtain a settlement ? — I have no doubt they do. 8251. Do you know anj- particular cases? — I do not. 8252. Did you at any public meeting or society state, that you knew, or suspected Ifiuch cases ? — No. I don't think I ever attended a public meeting about the poor. At a meeting of the directors of the town's hospital the idea may have been expressed, but I don't recollect my stating it for the purpose of keeping them back, or preventing them from coming on the hospital. 8253. How long have you been a director of the town's hospital ? — I am sent by the mer- chants' house : they regularly send a number of directors, and when my time of direction ceases, I am done with the town's hospital. It lasts for three years. 8254. Have you any objection to the present law of settlement ? — I have heard it stated that it would be an advantage if it were five instead of three years. 8255. What is the objection to the present law ? — We would not be troubled with so many applicants if the residence were five instead of three years. 8250. Is there any other change you would desire on the poor laws ? — I don't recollect, I am sure. It is said sometimes that the allowance to the poor is too small from the town's hospital. An attempt was made not long ago to increase the rates, but it was not gone into. 8257. Are they, in your opinion, too small ? — I think in some cases they may be too small : the funds they expend now are larger than they were some time ago, that is, the weekly expenditure is increased. 8258. Is there any point on which you have any suggestion to make ? — I don't think so. 8259. (Mr Drummond .) — What, from your means of judging, do you suppose to be the chief motives that induce people to come from other places to Glasgow ? — There are so many public works here — that is one great cause. 82()(). They come to get employment ? — Yes. 82()1. Do you think that the chief cause ? — I should think it is. 82G2. {Mr Roherti^on.') — Would you expect any great improvement on the condition of the poor generally, from increasing their allowances ? — I should think so ; I should think they would be better if they had an increase. 8203. Without reference to other considerations? — There is no doubt it would be better. 8204. But would there be a material improvement on their condition ? — With some it might be so : others would make a bad use of it, which I believe they very often do. 8205. {Dr M'Farhn.) — You have had a good deal of intercourse with the working classes in Glasgow — what is your opinion of their habits — are they sober and economical ? — Most of our workers are, and this I believe is the case in other factories. 8200. Are they provident in their habits? — We have tried again and again to induce them to countenance the national securities savings' banks ; but I am sorry to say, with little success. They seem to have a notion that their masters would know what they had in the bank — that notion prevails, and they have not in consequence availed themselves of such institutions to the extent which would be desirable. 8207. But would not the knowledge of the master, that his workers had money in a saving's bank, operate with him in their favour ? — Decidedly. I think every master would be glad to hear that his workers had money in a saving's bank, and no bad use would be made of such knowledge. 460 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFOKE THE Examinations. Glasgow. >Ir SomnierYiUe. ly April 1843. 8268. You say their habits are generally sober and economical— do thoy generally amass money in consequence.'' — Not many take advantage of the bank : with many of our best workers we are most troubled by the arrestment of their wages. 82(19. But the question is, Do they not accumulate money in consequence of being sober and economical ? — 1 don't think that is general : I rather think, what with helping poor relations and supplying their own wants, they generally dispose of all their wages. 8270. When they have a large income, do they live up to it? — I think so; the com- plaint is rather of their improvidence. 8271. And to what would you ascribe that improvidence? — I don't know; they are averse to putting money into any bank. 8272. Are they well-educated men ? — We have not so many men as females, but they are generally steady, and conduct themselves well. We have altered the pay day from Saturday to Thur-sday. "When it was on Saturday they did not always come forward on the Monday morning at the stated hour ; but we think it an advantage to give them a fort- night's wages on the alternate Thursdays, rather than a week's wages on the Saturdays. 8273. Then there is a tendency to intemperance ? — Among a certain class, but I don't sny generally among them, by any means. 8274. And would you say the spirit of Scottish independence exists among them to any extent? — I should say it does, though not to the extent to which at one time it did. 8275. Have you made a comparison betwixt those receiving large wages, and those receiving low wages, with reference to their habits ? — Their habits in general are regular : we seldom complain of their staying away. 8276. But which of those two classes is the more sober and well-behaved 1 — I could not say ; they are sober in both. 8277. Bo they belong to friendly societies? — I have not inquired, but I believe several of our men belong tp benefit societies. Dr Kerr. J)r Kerr, Examined : — r 8278. (Mr Drummond.) — You are a medical practitioner in Glasgow ? — At present I am, but 1 have been in Paisley for a good many years past, so that my experience of the poor is confined to Paisley. 8279. Would you state the result of that experience ? — I have reduced it to writing. [The witness here put in a statement in writing, which will be found printed as a separate communication.] 8280. (Dr M'-Farlan.) — -Do these remarks apply to Paisley exclusively ? — Yes. I have had no opportunity of acquiring experience on the subject in Glasgow. There are documents which have been mentioned in the presbytery of Piiisley, and which I could have wished to produce along with a list of articles pawned ; these would probably give a better idea, than anything else of the state of matters there. I can send the latter, which is a long list of articles pawned week after week. Monday, 2Uh April 1843, MEMBERS PRESENT, Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Mr A. Polloolf. 1:4 April 1«43. Alexander Pollock, Esq., one of the Managers of the Town's Hospital, Glasgow, Examined : — 8281. (Mr Campbell.) — You have long been one of the directors of the town's hospital ? — I have been so since 1828 — nearly fifteen years. 8282. You are generally present when applications are disposed of? — I was almost alway.'* present till within the last two or tlu-ee years, when, owing to bad health, I was prevented from attending. 8283. Do you attend upon the days when relief is given ? — Generally so. 8284. "Will you tell us distinctly and shortly the form of applying for relief? — The form when I attended was generally by petition to the weekly committee, which met then on Fri- day, but now on Thursday. 8285. What is the next step after the petition ? — The parties attend ; then they arc called in for examination. Then it is ascertained w licthcr they have a residence or not. If the residence Is undoubted, then the tiling is settled oft-hand. In temporary cases j)arties receive POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 461 something till they get in a better way. In doubtftil cases, where the residence does not appear so certain, Mr Thomson, the superinteiident (formerly Mr llillj examines the cases, and ascertains, as \vell as he can, whether they have a residence ; if they have, the connnittcc genei'ally give assistance. 8286. At the time the inquiry is going on, does the pauper get relief in the meantime? — Yes. At first, if the case is one of necessity, the party is relieved till tiie case is inquired into. 8287. Is there a period when a schedule is given out, containing certain queries to he answered ?— ^Not in the hospital. 8288. When a person is found destitute who is known to have no residence in the parish, do you give relief? — They give relief before residence is ascertained. The relief is continued till the residence is ascertained, or if they have no residence here, they are sent to their parish. 8289. Have you visited the houses of any paupers receiving relief? — Not for some years : not for five or sLs years. Indeed, I may state that now it very seldom happens that elders visit so frequently as they used to do in consequence of Mr Thomson visiting the houses and reporting to the session. 8290. Does Mr Thomson or any other officer of the hospital visit any poor except those who apply for relief? — ^I suppose not, except his own pi-oportion as an elder. 8291. Do the elders in general visit all the poor in their clistricts whether these are receiving relief or not ? — Each in his own proportion does so. 8292. By proportion you mean district of the parish ?^Yes. 8293. Have you ever observed, in the course of your attendance at the hospital, any dis- tinction made betwixt different sects, or persons from different parts of the country ? — I never imderstood that. Relief is given according to the situation of the ajiplicants and their apparent need ; no distinction is made according to country. If any of them liave been in a better situation of hfe at one time, that is taken into account after\vard8, but not in the first instance. 8294. Is any distinction made betwixt Churchmen and Dissenters, Protestants and Rq, man Catholics, or Irish and Scotch ? — None. 8295. Are the Roman Catholics in the house allowed to go out and attend the Roman Catholic church ? — I am not so certain about that. There was an application by the biishop at one time on the subject, and the Roman Catholic inmates were allowed to go at some particular time. I cannot answer that question distinctly. I don't recollect how the matter was settled. 8296. Do you think the aUowanoe at present given by the house to persons with no other means sufficient ? — In most cases it is understood that the allowance is only to aid them ; when they need to be supported entirely they are taken into the house. 8297. Then the relief is not sufficient to support them out of doors, even when their situar. tion is such that they have no other source of subsistence ? — Very generally not. It is un^, dcrstood that they have some other source of relief. In some cases lately the directors were not able to take parties into the house — the house being smaller than it ought to be. They may now give as much allowance as will support parties in the house to parties on the out- relief list, because they want room in the house. 8298. But with regard to those who have no other means of subsistence, do you think the allowance sufficient to maintain them ?— Only sitting occasionally, I could not answer that question so well as an official with the books under his eye ; but I understand that old people are getting as high as 12s. a month. This is only in a few cases ; but the parties are getting from 10s. to 12s a month. I dare say that would be sufficient if they had any per- son to look after them ; and they generally have it in their power to take that or to come Into the house. 8299. But at present there is no room for them in the house ?-^Not for those they would wish to take in ; but very shortly we expect to go to a place where we shall have more room. 8300. In those ca^es where you yourself have been present when aliment is awarded, and where there are no other means of subsistence, — is there an inquiry gone into for the pm- ])ose of seeing what will subsist a person who is altogether destitute ? — I understand it is the duty of Mr Thomson to Aisit all cases of application in that way before they are put on the roll. He reports to the session, who put the party on the roll, and make the allowance they reckon necessary at the time. In many cases I have noticed, that when the allowances are too little in Mr Thomson's oi;)inion, he reports, and an additional allowance is given. 8301. Supposing a case of absolute destitution, where a party has no other means but what he receives from tho hospital, how do you ascertain what amount of aliment he shoidd get ? — There is very seldom, in any case, an application at first to tho hospital, except in disease, and then the parties are generally sent to the infirmary. 8302. But I speak of the case of an old man or woman who is found in a state of complete destitution,-— what is the rule in such cases, do the hospital award aliment sufficient for total maintenance ? — They give a sum such as they deem sufficient for that purpose, or take the parties into the hospital, 8303. And do you think such sums as are granted for people out of doors sufficient ? — I have never turned my attention to that matter of late, not having been so active as a director for the last few years. I understand, that wherever an applicant is totally destitute, the prac- tice is either to allow them a sum sufficient to support thfem, or else to take them into the house. 8304. {Mr Twisleton.) — Do you take into the hospital widows with children ?^Not if it can be helped. They don't take any except single persons. They are very unwilling to permit even old people to come in. If an old man and his wife live together, they give them as much allowance as they can, rather than take them into the house. Kxaiiiiiiationg. Ulasuow. Mr A. Pollock. 24 April la43. 4G2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE £xaaiinations. Glasgow. Mr A. Pdllock. l'< Apiil 1043. 830/). Then your previous remark ns to offering the workhouse to those who are dissatis- fied with the outdoor allowance docs not ajiply to widows with children ? — I never heard of an instance of a widow with children wishing to get into the workhouse. 8306. Do you consider that the allowance to that class is generally sufficient? — Very lately the allowance was altered. An advance was made by the committee. Some thought the allowance little, others thought it sufficient. The allowance at present is understood by the committee to be sufficient. 8307. Do you know what is the largest allowance given to widows with childi-en by the committee ? — It is taken down by the o\'erseers in a book ; but I could not state the amount from memory. There are different classes, — for one child up to four or five. That wUl be seen from the books. 8308. I understand you to say you have not been in the habit of visiting the poor at their own dwellings for some yesu-s, — then, from what do you infer that the allowance to widows with children is sufficiently large ? — It Is not my duty, as a director of the town hospital, to visit the poor at their own houses. It is only as a director of the weekly committee that I can speak at all of an allowance to the poor. 8309. You have much difficulty in ascertaining the residence of parties in receipt of oc- casional relief in Glasgow ? — A great deal of trouble. 8310. Do you think it would be advantageous to alter the law of settlement ? — It would be an advantage if the law of settlement were the same all over the three kingdoms. We find people from the country, and especially from Ireland, pretending to have a residence frequently when they have not. In many cases they are supported by relations till they have passed over the requisite number of years. If the residence were the same in all parts of the kingdom, there could be no inducement to that. 8311. Do you recollect individual cases ? — No ; various cases have been spoken of by the committee, but I could not refer to particular cases. 8312. What do you mean by making the law the same over the whole kingdom ? — Mak- ing the residence the same. The residence at present is too short ; but if It were three years residence In Ireland and England — if it were the same all over the kingdom, there would be an advantage. 8313. To what term would you extend residence ?— I think five years at the very least — five or seven years would be an Improvement. Three years is too short a time, because people coming from distant places remain to see and obtain a residence. They don't apply for a year or two — then they claina a settlement, though perhaps they were seventy years of age before they came here at all. 8314. Do you think it would be of advantage as a means of getting quit of disputes with regard to settlement in the parishes about Glasgow, to unite all the parishes within the parliamentary boundary Into one ? — Perhaps if the parishes of Glasgow, Govan, and Barony, were all made as one. It would be an advantage ; it would be the means, at all events, of keeping off jarring among them, if they were all under one. 8315. That would save disputes, and a great deal of loss of time to paupers in ascertain- ing their settlement ? — Yes, it would — whether it would be an advantage on the whole, I am not just prepared to say. 8316. Do you approve of the mode In which the assessment for the poor is laid on at present, viz., on rental merely ? — Before, I used to think It a better way when the assess- ment was Laid on means and substance ; but now since It has been put on rental, and the matter is settled, I think it better to keep it so. 8317. But in princi2Jle, which do you think fairest — means and substance or rental? — My opinion is, that a great deal may be said on both sides ; but a great many wcsilthy people get off when the assessment Is on rental. On the other hand, those who were charged ac- cording to means and substance would think the assessment very high, for they were charged on account of their occupying a house within the city upon their means and substance, when perhaps they had little or no connexion with the city othei"wise. 8318. Is there anything you would suggest from your experience In the working of the poor laws which you think would be an improvement ? — No, I could not say. I never have attended to the subject except as a director of the town's hospital — seeing the ai)plication8 made there, and judging from the situation of the applicants, what was the j>ropcr course to be followed. I do not reckon myself qualified for giving an opinion on the alteration of the poor laws. 8319. Is the nature of the claims such as to require any strict scnitiny before you admit them ? — In some instances it is — others are quite plain. Captain Miller, Captain Miller, Superintendent of the Glasgow Police, Re-examined : — 8320. {Mr Twisleton.) — ^I understand that since you were last here a case has come under yoiu: notice, illustrating the want of something of the nature of a workhouse for destitute persons ? — Yes. 8321. Would you just state the case? — In my former examination I stated something under the head of vagrancy. In addition to Mbat I then mentioned, the following case has come under my notice, with reference to which, I prej^ared, at the time, the following state- ment : — " On the afternoon of Wednesday last, an old man, in a very feeble state, was brought to the police-office, having been found lying on the street by one of the officers. The surgeon of the establishment visited him, and his case was brought under the notice of the proper officer at the town's hospital. In the course of yesterday afternoon, he was POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 463 taken away to Langloan, Old Monkland, on a cart sent from the hospital, on which parish Kxuminatiom. he was supposed to have a legal claim. The poor man died before reaching Langloan, and (ji.Asaovr. his body was returned to Glasgow. There can be no doubt but his death must have been ^ ~: ~: precipitated by the want of that treatment wliich he would receive in such an hospitiJ as I 24*'April i84j'^ formerly recommended. " There is a poor man at present lying in the office, Avho was sent from Girvan in Ayr- shire, on a cart, and relieved by the various parish authorities. He was brought to the town's hospital last night, but was not admitted, although the Barony parish rooms were shut. He was relieved with Gd. at the hospital, and sent to the police-office, where he is still lying. These are only two out of numerous cases of the same nature. It is a common thing to see persons brought on carts to the infirmary, town's hospital, &c., who cannot get admit- tance in consequence of its being doubtful to what parish they belong. This js a great hard- ship, and calls for some immediate remedy. There should be some arrangement in the meantime for getting persons in this state admitted into an asylum, till their cases are properly inquired into, instead of sending them to the police-office, where there is no accom- modation for them. Besides being an act of great inhumanity, such a proceeding comes to be a serious matter when taken in a criminal point of view, " I produce a copy of the pass, and of a letter from Old Monkland parish, throwing out reflections on account of the man referred to being sent thither in such a state. [The fol- lowing documents were then put in by the witness :] — (Copt.) " Langloan, Old Monkland, 20th April 1843. " Sir, — I have returned the man, James Dick, being dead when brought here, and I hope you will not send any more in such a state. I do not think you are justified in so doing. The man, if it is really James Dick, did get a temporaiy relief of four shUlings, but being just a travelling beggar, although once belonging to this pai-ish, but being long out of it he has no legal claim ; but you can please get the man interred, and I will pay the expense, if this be found his proper paiish. — -I am, Sir, yours truly, (Signed) " Willlajh Johnstone, Kirk-Treasurer, " To Mr Robert Ross, Town's Hospital" (Copy.) PASS by authority of the Magistrates of Girvan, Permit the bearer hereof, Mungo Campbell, a native of the Barony parish of Glasgow, to pass to his own parish ; and being unable to travel In consequence of a sore leg, and other- wise in bad health, the bearer is forwarded by a cart at the expense of the said parish of Barony, (Signed) Jno, Wilson, Bailie. Girvan, 11th April 1843. Relieved at Girvan, and forwarded to Kjrkoswald. (Signed) Thos. Davidson, Elder, April 18. Forwarded to Maybole. (Signed) David Orr, Elder. 18. Relieved at Maybole, and forwarded with a cart to Ajt. (Signed) JajVies Lambie, for James Kerr. 18, Relieved at Ayr with 2d, (Signed) William Penno, 18, Relieved at Newton-upon-Ayr, forwarded to Monkton, (Signed) John Gemmel, 18. Relieved at Monkton, forwarded to Symington. (Signed) J. Gibson, 19. Relieved at Symington, and forwarded to Riccarton. (Signed) S, CoREAN, 19. Relieved at Riccarton, and forwarded to Kilmarnock, (Signed) W. Hood. 19, Relieved at Kilmarnock, and forwarded to Fen wick, 19, Relieved at Fen wick, and forwarded to Meams, (Signed) John Faielie, K. T. 20, Relieved at Meams, and forwarded to Cathcart by (Signed) D. ]\I., Minister. 20. ReUeved and forwarded to Govan annexation or Gorbals by (Signed) J. Bell, Kirk-Treasurer. 20. Relieved at Govan annexation with Is, (Signed) C, C, for J. C. 20, ReHeved at Gorbals with 6d, (Signed) AVm, C. 20, Relieved at ToAvn's Hospital with 6d, (Signed) J. T, 8322, {Mr Campbell.) — Did the surgeon of police make any report about the man sent to 4G4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Kx»miiiation8. L.ingloan ? — He saw liim immediately after he was brought in from Tureen Street, and men- Olasoow. tioncd that he was a person who ouglit to be admitted to the town's hospital, or sent to his pa- Cn (ai„ Miller "'*1^ immediately. The case was brought immediately under the notice of the town's hospital. 2TAj.ril I8i". 832;-5. Did he express an opinion that he was not fit to be removed? — The medical man saw him when he was first brought in ; but I cannot say whether he then considered liim fit to bear removal. Had he been removed immediately after being brought in from Tureen Street, the same consequences might not have followed, 8324. How lon<^ was he in the police office? — I think two nights. He was brought in on Wednesday. The case was brought imder the notice of the town's hospital that evening or next morning, 8325. Are you aware whether this man was seen by the hospital surgeon?^! believe not. 8326. Nor by any district surgeon ? — No. 8327. {Dr MFarlan.) — Don't you think an arrangement could be made with the night asylum with regard to such persons ? — They unifoi-mly refuse to admit such persons. If a person who has no disease is exhausted from want, they admit such cases ; but if they have reason to believe that ho is carrying about disease with'Mm, they say, that as be may othei^ wise be provided for, his is no case for their interference. V, 8328. But supposing the man manifestly without disease, would they not have admitted him ? — They might. He was found lying in Tureen Street, and was brought? .to , the police office in a barrow. ' ' . 8329. What was the matter with him ? — There was no fever about him ; but he was in a very exhausted state. Had he been considered suffering from fever, he woiUd have been sent to the infirmary. 8330. How did they send him to Old Monkland ? — In a cart. 8381. Has the person sent from Girvan a settlement in the Barony parish ?— -The case was brought under the notice of Mr M'Larcn, who stated his conviction, that he did not belong to the Barony ; but he said he would attend to him in the meantime. I have already expressed my conviction, that a person in such circumstances, brought under our notice, should be sent to some asylum, whei-e he would be properly taken care of. 8332. {Mr Robertson.) — Did the man who was sent to Old Monkland sink in the^ police- office from not being properly taken care of? — He got much weaker while in the office, and I ascribe this principally to the fact of his lying on hard boards, without bed or bedding, and the want of such nourishment and treatment as he would receive in an hospital. 8333. Have you any other observations to make in addition to your former evidence ? — I should hke to add something under the head of Brokers. It consists with my own know- ledge, that a few years ago, a number of the small brokers in the city would take in from 200 to 30Q articles a day ; and I am aware of an instance in which 383 were taken in. Few of them now take in a third of this number. Indeed they state that many persons who foi-merly dealt with them, have now nothing to dispose of. Their advances range froin 3d. to about 2s., and will average about Is. I have remarked, that during the time of strikes, the small brokers do a great deal more business than at any other time. I believe, and indeed it is notorious, that the thousands of articles of bed clothes and wearing apparel removed by persons whose houses are infected with fever, and sold, or pawned with small brokers, carry infection with them. It is well known, that such clothes are disposed of to poor people, jifter being kept for months in damp shops and cellars, and without being washed, and thus tend (as is said by medical men,) to spread disease over the city to a fearful extent. The 200 brokers will take in on an average from thirty to forty articles each in a day, or nearly two millions in a year. A few years ago the number taken in could not be less than five ' ■ millions. The fact of the number of small brokers having been reduced from want of busi- ness, shows more strongly than any thing else, the actual condition of the poor at present. It is proper to state, that of the 720,000 articles pledged with the thirty licensed pawn- brokers in the city, 691,200 were pledged for sums under lOs. 8334. On the sanitary condition of the poor ? — If the sanitary condition of the poor in the towns in Scotland comes within the scope of this inquiry, I may state my opinion tlmt the clauses in the bUl already alluded to by me, having reference to a board of health in this city, should be carried into a law, believing as I do, that public health and pauperism are closely allied. It is the more necessary that this important matter should be brought specially under the notice of the Commission in consequence of many of the clauses referred to not having been inserted in the new police bUl at present before parliament. 8335. Do you think there is a great want of cleanliness in the closes of Glasgow ?— Not at present : their state is much improved of late. I suggested some time ago, in a letter to the Lord Provost, that a, portion of the unemployed should be employed in cleaning the vennels, wynds, &c. 8336. Have you seen the closes in the neighbourhood of Stockwell Street ?— They have not all been cleaned : the men go every raommg to a portion of those places. They were in a fearful state about six months ago. — I have already said that the relief at present granted to the poor is far from being sufficient. I would recommend that a powerful a<^ency should be established over the parliamentary district, in connexion with the respectivelcirk-sessions «nd managers of the poor, as well to prevent the imposition at present so often practised, as to see the wants of the destitute poor properly attended to. The duty of these agents should be to visit all applicants for relief, and test their statements before any relief is granted, and generally to report any change in the circumstances of those receiving relief, which might render it proper either to increase or diminish their allowances. There is one of my officers that was examined here, who lias a thorough knowledge of the various localities where the poOT are congregated. Another hjvs the wynds under his chaise, and can speak to their state. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOB SCOTLAND. 465 8337. By whom would you have agents appointed ? — ^By some board or other. They must be paid i>gcnts. 8338. How Would you have the board appointed ? — ^I have a difficulty in giving an opi- nion how the board should be appointed ; but it is important to have a paid agency in con- nexion with tlie kirk-sessions and the heritors. If a person makes an application for relief, and certain questions are put to him, it is of great importance to test the accuracy of the state- ment which he makes in reply ; and that cannot be properly done except by a paid agent. 8339. Have you anything else to state ? — There is a statement here of the number of pledges received by the whole pa\\Tibrokers who are licensed. One pawnbroker ^ in the Saltmarket, received, in February, about five years ago, 2056 pledges : the number in Feb- ruary last was about half that number. I hold in my hand a statement of the comparative number of pledges, taken in by pawnbrokers, in the month of February 1840, and in the month of February last, as follows : — " The number of articles taken in by one pawnbroker in the month of February 1840, was 4643, — and in the month of February last, 2462. The number taken in by another in the month of February 1840 was 23G4, — and in February last 1731. In 1840 the number of licensed pawnbrokers was thirty-two ; at present there are only thirty. The fiilling off in this business is to be accounted for by the fact, that persons who, in 1840, had plenty of clothes, &c., to pawn, are now so much reduced in circumstances, that they have nothing on which the ])a\^Tibrokers will advance money." 8340. The amount of articles pawned is lessened? — ^It is lessened. 8341. Which you attribute? — To the want of articles. 8342. Solely to that cause ? — I am satisfied that the poorer classes are reduced to such misery that they have got nothing ; and I believe, wth the exception of what they have on their backs, the greater part of their furniture and clothing is in the hands of the brokers. Examinations. Glasoow. Captain Miller. 24 April 1843. William Brehner, Esq., Governor of Glasgow Prison,* Examined : — Mr Brebner. -Yes ; and I have also the general superin- -I have been governor of this 8343. You are governor of Glasgow prison ?- tendence of the prisons in the county. 8344. How long have you been in your present situation ?- place upwards of thirty years. 8345. During that period you have had many opportunities of seeing persons in a state of destitution committed to prison ? — Yes. 8346. Have any particular views suggested themselves to you with regard to the effect of destitution in promoting crime ? — I have known, in many cases, crime come out of destitu- tion — out of idleness. We had a miU burnt here lately, and in the course of a few weeks we had about a dozen of the workers, in consequence of their being thrown idle ; and all Eublic strikes generally send a few to us. When once they are thrown idle they get into ad company. 8347. By idleness, do you mean being unemployed or being without industrious habits? — By idleness I mean, in this particular instance, being out of employment. 8348. Do you consider that in the majority of instances, or in any instance, the want of employment leads to crime ? — Yes. 8349. Or as compared with intemperance ? — Yes : I have known many instances of unem- ployed persons falling into intemperate habits, and then becoming criminal. 8350. But do you consider that the prevailing cause of crime ? — No, not the prevailing cause. Three-fourths of the people Avlio inhabit this place — the jail —are idle from infancy — brought up as beggars probably with bad parents. Children sent out to beg when boys turn out thieves ; and the girls are generally pi'ostitutes. 8351. And you think begging one main cause of crime? — ^Begging I think one of the greatest curses we have. 8352. Is begging common from your observation in Glasgow ? — ^Yes, children are sent out by their parents to beg, and are often beaten at night if they don't bring forward a certain booty. 8353. Begging does not subject them to punishment ? — ^As children they are too young to be taken up for punishment. The police might take them up. 8354. With regard to the class who send out their children a begging, are you aware whether any of them are in receipt of parochial relief? — I am not exactly sure about that. 8355. During the last year could you give me a statement of the numbers of those punished in jail who have been led to crime by want of employment ?> — I could hand in a note of it, if I had a little time. 8356. I mean persons who have been led to crime by not being able to find employment ? — There are very few of those, compared with the numbers actually unemployed, when they committed their offences. 8357. Have you known instances of parties who have expressed a difficulty in being able ; to maintain themselves if they were leaving the prison ? — Yes, it is a daily complaint. They ! have lost character, and few can be got to take them in. Then we are so often disappointed \ when we do get them into places ; sometimes we are mistaken in the character. They don't [ behave well, and that shuts the door against fresh applications. * Mr Brebner being, from the eflfects of an accident, confined to the house, was examined at his residence in the prison. 3 O 466 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 8358. Are there instances in which parties have wished to remain in prison ? — Yes ; there Glasgow. is scarcely ever a week but we have some iudividiuils applyinjj to be allowed to remain till Mr Brebner Some situation can be got; and many of them come applying for admission, and begging to 24 April 1843. be taken in that they might get work and food. 8359. Have you taken in any ? — Yes. 8360. How many ? — I had at one time about forty of that description — probably a few more. 8361. Had they ever been In bridewell before? — A few. 8362. How many were there who had not? — I am not prepared to answer that ; but I can give you that also in a tabidar form. I have one just now who has been in upwards of two years — a female — she has no M'here to go, and is begging hard to be allowed to remain. 8363. Had she been convicted of some crime ? — No, never. She was quite destitute — she seemed starving at the time^ 8364. With regard to those who having never been convicted, offei-ed voluntarily to sur- render themselves for the sake of board and lodging here, do you know anything of their Erevious cliaractcrs ? — I suppose they are probably of a light cast, and thoughtless, and ave got destitute and out of employment. 8365. Do you continue the system now of admitting parties who liave not been con- victed ? — No ; we were ordered to get quit of them by degrees ; but for the sake of humanity not to turn them out altogether — rather getting quit of them as they got situations — and we have succeeded in gettmg j^laces for a ninnber. 8366. Do you think it desirable to have a refuge something of the nature of a workhouse for parties who quit the prison ? — Decidedly — for it is much easier to get situations for them from a half-way house than from prison. We send a few to the houses of refuge as servants. It is easier to get situations for them from that, as they go out apparently having been servants. 8367. Do you Imow how the parties are going on whom you get situations for? — A great many are doing well — probably three-fourths. 8368. {Lord Belhaven.) — Have you plenty of employment for all the persons in Bridewell ? — At present we have plenty of employment, but only of late. 8369. How long since ? — It has been mending since January gradually. It comes in now, without our going to look for it. 8370. Last year you were badly off? — ^Very bad as to remunerations, but there was always work of some kind. 8371. (Mr Twisleton.)—Do you tliink that the work in bridewell has the effect of inter- fering, so as to take away work from parties out of doors ? — No, I should think not. 8372. You have heard no complaint? — Not in Glasgow. I have heard of such in small towns. 8373. Is there no complaint at Perth ? — Yes, but it is more in name than in reality. AH that the people made for the inhabitants of Perth in the general prison, was 6/. 4s. 8d. of clear profit, during four months. 8374. (Mr Camjjbell.) — What do you find is the state of those brought under your charge, as to education ? — About one-fourth can read well. 8375. Including adults and children? — Yes, taking the whole, about one-fourth. They were better educated when I first came. They are now falling back. The means of educa- tion don't reach our class of people. 8376. How many are able to write? — One-half of that again. 8377. And do those who can read seem to make much use of the acquirement ? — They are very fond of reading — when they are locked in a separate cell, they generally ask for books. 8378. Have you had people who have been sent from you to the house of refuge, return- ing upon you ? — A good many. 8379. Could you give us a notion of the numbers ? — Probably about one-half of those who were discharged have returned here, or to some other prison. I know several have returned here more from necessity than from inclination. 8380. But they had committed crimes? — They had committed crimes: they had been obliged to join the ranks of thieves for the sake of getting food. 8381. Not being able to find employment ? — No. « 8382. (Lord Belhaven.) — How many prisoners have you got just now ? — In both prison.^ about 600. 8383. How many of those are getting work ? — They are all doing something. 8384. But you include in the 600 those down in the jail ? — Yes. 8385. Do they like working ? — Yes ; one punishment is to take work from them, and leave them in an empty cell. I would except beggars : it seems to have no effect on boys and girls who are brought up beggars : work seems to frighten them more than anything else. 8386. Do you think, if children were brought up in a way you woidd call well, with a tolerable education, would that be a. great means of doing away both witli crimes and desti- tution ? — Decidedly, it woidd do away Avith bad habits, and give them a liking for work. 8387. There is a provision for teaching In bridewell? — There Is; we have a chaplain at each prison, and six teachers at the two. 8388. Female as well as male ? — Yes ; they have likewise a change of books twice or three times a week. The person we call librarian goes round and takes note whether they have been reading or not. 8389. (Dr AFFarlan.) — "WTiat kind of books do they ask for? — Travels, and the like. Every cell has a bible. 8390. Of the fourth part who perhaps read, have you ascertained that a proportion have POOR LAW INQUIRY COilMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 467 received an accurate knowledge of the principles of religion ? — Very few even of that fourth part. Many acquire considerable knowledge while in prison. 8391. Of the fourth part, did a considerable number read imperfectly ? — No ; I consider they can read tolerably. 8392. What, as the result of your observation, would you say is the chief cause of poverty, and of crime as resulting from poverty ? — Destitution — bad parents. Among all those boys, of whom we have 60 just now, there is scarcely a case in which you cannot trace the thing to their parents. 8393. Have you access to know the habits of the parents ? — Yes ; in many cases, and they are bad, very bad. 8394. In what respect? — In being thieves themselves — low pawnbrokers — keepers of low public houses — brothel keepers. 8395. Do you regard intemperance as one chief cause ? — Yes. 8396. Have you anything to suggest as to the means, if there be any, of checking that vice ? — ^^Tiy, what we call " wee pawns," give facilities which they had not till within these few years. I have known many instances of girls from the country parting with every article, till they have been forced to turn to the street, trying to make things better, and regularly making them worse. 8397. By " wee pawns," you mean unlicensed ? — Yes. 8398. Then, M'hat would you suggest ? — I don't know — put them down altogether. 8399. Don't you think the licensed pawnbrokers' shops afford considerable facilities to crime also ? — They do. 8400. Have you anything to state with regard to their character in that point of view ? — I look on pawnbroking as one of the worst things we have. PawTibroking, and drinking, and begging are great evils. 8401. If the system of religious and moral training were more imiversally diffused over the country, Avould that be a powerful check ? — I think it would be a very powerfid. check. 8402. Would it strike at the root of the evil ? — It would. 8403. Have any instances come under your observation of the benefit they have received in the brideweU and prison ? — Yes. 8404. Can you state examples of persons who have gone out and conducted themselves, for years after, in a respectable and proper manner ? — Yes ; a great many have passed thi'ough here who arc doing well. There is one individual who has been here seven or eight times for committing assaults under the influence of liquor. That man was taken under our hands, and got off by degrees from his bad habit, tiU he has at times now twelve or fourteen men working under him. That is one instance ; but I could refer to others. 8405. Men far advanced in life ? — Then they are generally hopeless. 8406. What age woidd you say ? — Generally from sixteen to thirty. 8407. But this individual? — This individual might be about twenty-five. 8408. {Mr Robertson.') — What, on the average, is the proportion of juvenile delinquents to the whole number of prisoners ? — Better than one-fourth ; I shoidd say one-third. 8409. For what period are juvenile delinquents generally committed ? — When very young, for ten or twenty days ; then thirty, then sixty days, and so on, till they train them up to endure confinement without feeling it as a punishment. Then they go on till they are banished. 8410. Then, during the short periods of confinement, very little can be done in the way of education ? — Not a great deal. 9411. Do these short confinements tend to improve their moral character? — It is rather the opposite way in general. 8412. Have ^^ou heard of many instances in which juvenile parties, coming into prison in a state of utter ignorance, have, under the instruction given here, obtained a tolerable edu- cation ? — Yes, many instances ; they aU can read and write before they get out here, if the term of confinement is of any length. 8413. Of those who got a tolerable education here, do you find in a considerable propor- tion of cases that this education is attended with good effects ? — It is always attended with good effects, if anything is done for the individual after liberation. 8414. You mean by being taken by the hand, as you say ?— Taken by the hand. 8415. But it is your opinion that, of tliose who are thus educated tolerably weE, if they could again be introduced to society under favourable circumstances, the effects of that education would probably keep most of them in the paths of virtue ? — I have always found that when they have got a little education here, and have been taught to know good from bad, that they have made a greater straggle not to come back, than the ignorant. 8416. You have found that uniformly? — Uniformly; in every case I have found it so. I had a boy here about a week ago, from the house of refuge ; he begged and prayed me to take hina back — he had not had food or anything during a couple of days. 8417. And lie had resisted during that time ? — He had resisted during that time. 8418. And hence you infer that if children were " brought up in the way they should go," your supply would be cut off? — Yes^ 8419. {Mr Twisleton.) — Does your experience in Glasgow lead you to suggest any alteration m the poor laws ? — I know the poor are iU provided for in many cases, and if I have a person here who has no parish, I am often at a very great loss to know what to do with him or her. They won't take such persons into the poor house, as they don't belong to Glas- fow. If you were to keep them here for a week or a fortnight after the period of con- nement has expired, and they were to die here, there would be an outcry about it. 8420. When they are unwell ? — Yes, they very often come in unwell, and they get very Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Brobner. 24 April 1843. 4G8 ^^NUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Brebucr. 24 April 1843. little better, on account of their broken down constitutions. There are people here who have no parish — who have been trampers all their lives, and who have never been in one place for three years since they were bom. 8421. {Dr M'Farlan.) — Have you not the power of sending such sick persons to the in- firmary ? — No, and if I had, perhaps they are not in such a state that they would be received — perhaps they are incurable. 84-22. (Lord Belhaven.)-^The house of refuge is not connected with this ? — ^No. 8423. You have nothing to do with it in any way ? — Nothing to do with it in any way ; but if we had a large house of refuge to receive all who cannot get work, it would be a great improvement. A great many would fly from this city, if they were told, " you will not be allowed to beg, but here is a place where you wjll get a bed and food, but you are obliged to work ;" and it would protect many poor creatures till they got situations. It would pre- vent much crime. 8424. If the lower class of public houses were put down, would that be a preventative of crime ? — Yes. Prevent drinking by any means — that would do it. 8425. But would not a great object of the house of refiige be to take in these children off the streets, and bring them up ? — It is the cliief object, but their means are at present limited. 8426. But still it would be very desirable, and would be a very great benefit, and probably in the end, would prevent a great deal of pauperism and crime ? — A very great benefit. It woidd to a great extent prevent both, and be a very great saving to the country, 8427. (Dr M'Farlan.) — To what extent would you contemplate a house of refuge in Glas- gow — how many inmates would you receive into such an institution ? — 800, and it should be susceptible of being enlarged. Probably accommodation for 800 or 1000 would meet the present demand for the class of persons alluded to ; but if I were to speak of the necessary ac- commodation for common vagrants, the aged and infimi in and around Glasgow,— :-to embrace all these, I should say that accommodation for 2000 or 2500 would be necessary. It would cost a mere trifle to the public — it would not be like a prison. [The witness afterwards put in the following tabular statements :]^^ TABLE I. ABSTRACT showing the Number Employed and Unemployed at the time of committing the oflTences, of those committed to the Prison of Glasgow during the yeai" 1842. The total number of Committments being 3691 : — Employed, Unemployed. Total Committed to Glasgow Prison, 1842. M^ilcs. Females. Total. M riles. Females. Total. 976 316 1292 1338 1061 2399 3691 TABLE II. TABULAR STATEIMENT showing the Number of Persons whose Crimes can be traced to inability to find employment, applicable to the year 1842 : — Of this Number there were of the following ages:- - 16 years and under. 20 and above 15. 30 and above 20. 40 and above 30. 50 and above 40. 60 and above 50. upwards of 60. Total. Males,... Females, 22 6 49 32 32 38 10 29 16 12 5 6 i 134 124 28 81 70 39 28 11 1 258 Note. — None are included in Table II., except those of whom there can be no doubt that it was absolute want, and not inclination, which drove them to commit the offences of which they had been found guilty. I may say here, as a matter of opinion, that if it could be accurately traced how far inability to find employment has operated in swelling the amount of crime, the result would be fearful, whether as it respects those driven to commit their first offences through the pressure of want, or of those who, tliough once unfortunate, would willingly relinquish a life of crime, for one of well-doing, but cannot, through inabiUty to find employment. POOR LAW INQUIEY CO>WISSION FOR SCOTLAIO), 469 TABLE ni. Showing the Number of Individuals (all Females) who, never having been in Prison, requested admission as voluntary inmates, their only remuneration being food, clothing, and shelter, and subject in all respects to the same restrictions as if convicted : — A):fes of Nineteen Persons so Admitted : — 10 years. 14 years. 17 years. 18 years. 20 years. 23 years. 24 years. 26 years. 27 years. 30 years. 31 years. 38 years. 40 years. years. Total. 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 19 As no record was taken of the number of unsuccessful applicants for admission, who had never been in confinement before, it is impossible to state with any degree of certainty how many there may have been, but I am safe in stating that there were at least three times as many refused as were admitted. TABLE IV. Showing the Number of Individuals previously Convicted, but anxious to abandon their former vicious career, who were admitted to the Prison of Glasgow on their own request, during the year 1842, after ha^•ing been unsuccessful in their endeavours to procure employment, and reduced to the utmost destitution :— Ages of Twenty-One Persons so Admitted : — 15 years and under. 21 and above 15. 30 and above 21 40 and above 30. 50 and above 40. Total. Males, 'l 1 6 "3 "g "4 1 20 Females, 1 7 3 6 4 21 TABLE V. Showing the Number of Individuals permitted to remain, on their own earnest entreaties, after the expiry of their sentences, being for the most part new to crime, homeless, friendless, and completely destitute of clothes, without which it would be vain to apply for work on liberation : — Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Brebner. 24 April 1843. Ages of Thirty-Nine Persons so Admitted. 15 years and under. 15 and above 21. 30 and above 21. 40 and above 30. so and above 40. upwards of 50. ToUI. Males, 1 4 3 19 1 6 1 1 *2 "i 6 33 Females, 5 22 7 2 2 1 39 Glasgow, 2'ith April 1843. WILLIAM BREBNER. Archibald Alison, Esq., Sheriif-Depute of Lanarkshire, Examined : — 8428. (Lord Melville.) — ^You are sheriff of the county of Lanark ? — I am. 8429. In that capacity you have had occasion to know a good deal of the situation and habits of the poorer classes in Glasgow ?— I have had occasion repeatedly to consider the situation of the poorer classes, both as an individual from the numerous applications made to me for relief, and officially from what I have observed in the small debt court, and in the course of criminal proceedings. 8430. That applies not to paupers properly so called ? — It applies to the Avhole -working classes — those working, those unemployed, and those in a state of pauperism. 8431. Are you conversant at all with the mode in which relief is administered to the poor ? — I don't know that of my own personal knowledge. I have heard it repeatedly spoken of in the course of evidence, and proved judicially ; but I know nothing of it personally. 8432. In the parish where you reside you take no particular charge ? — No. I don't be- long to the kirk-session. 8433. Has it come under yoiu: notice that the poor who have parochial relief are suffi- ciently provided for ? — ^I think the poor are inadequately provided for ; and there is very little Mr Alison. 470 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. dilFercncc in that respect betwixt those who arc on and those who are not on the poor's (U.ANUOW. j.qJJ y\ 1- Alison, 8434. Do yon alhide to persons who have occasional relief? — I allude to those who are 24 April 18-43. deprived of the ineiins of fjjetting bread by the loss of tlie head of the family, or who are de- prived of tlic means of subsistence by stajijnation in commerce or any other cause. 8435. Docs it consist witli your knowledge that the numbers of the poor and destitute in Glasgow have increased lately beyond what the increase of popidation Mould account for? — I should think mucli more so. Both pauperism and crime have increased much beyond the increase of population, great as the increase of population is. 843G. Can you specify any period when tliis was more marked than before ? — I have now been here eight and a half years ; and during the last foui- years the progress both of crime and of pauperism has been particidarly raj)id. 8437. Have you perceived any change in thejiabits of the people, with reference to intem- perance ? — I think that, if anything, the habits of the people are rather improving in that respect. Tliey are improving in consequence of the wages of skilled workmen being not so high as they were ; and particularly owing to the efforts of the teetotal and other societies which labour to check intemperance ; and also from the increased taste for musical entertain- ments which has sjjrang up to an extraordinary degree, those entertainments sometimes at- tracting 2000 people to the city hall two or tlircc times a month. But still intemperance is beyond all bounds. 8438. Do you think tlie number of public houses greater than the population re- quires? — Much greater. There are 2380 public houses which have been ascertained as regular. 8439. Have steps been taken or are steps taking to reduce their numbers ? — Though that is the number returned to the excise, I am convinced that is not the whole number, and that many deal in spirits without a license, just as many deal in pawni-tickcts who have no license, their number being ten times greater than that of those who have a license. 8440. Does it fall within your knowledge that these are kept open on the Sabbath day ? — Public houses are open at all times of the day, and in some instances at all hours on Sunday — late at night and early in the morning ; and I have seen from evidence that they are often open all night. 8441. Does it happen that, in the course of your judicial investigation, you find many people brought before j'ou for petty offences who have been reduced to the poor roll or des- titution previously ? — I don't think I have seen any person to whom it has been jiut whether he was on the poor roll. I dare say many criminals may be on the poor roU ; but I only recollect one or two cases where poverty or distress was the reason assigned for crime. 1 should say it is not a twentieth part of crime that arises from poverty or distress. 8442. Are tliere many juvenile offenders who arc brought up for begging ? — I should say four-fifths or nine-tenths of professional offenders begin in that way. There is a prodigious number of widows wlio are left in tliis city in a state of destitution, and whose families had come to Glasgow on high wages. The husband dies of typhus. The wife is reduced to pauperism ; the children arc turned out to the streets, and become thieves almost the mo- ment tliey walk. 8443. I thing you said you had no personal knowledge of the principle on which relief is given ?— The only thing I know is from what I have heard stated in evidence, — chiefly in the small debt court. I know the relief is genendly Is. a week, and sometimes Is. Gd. ; but that is generally absorbed by what they have to pay for their houses. The landlord watches, and gets the money out of their hands the moment they get it out of the parish. 8444. Does that apply to tlie poor both in the royalty and in the suburbs ? — It applies to the poor in every portion of Glasgow. There is constant watching on the part of the land- lords to get in the 6d. or Is. received by the pauper; and both the pensioners who receive pensions from government and paupers who receive relief are liable to have what is given to them swallowed up by the landlord. I have repeatedly heard it mentioned by poHce officers and others that they saw no difference betwixt the pauperism of those who are on the poor roll and those who are not. 8445. I suppose, in fixing the allowances, they take into consideration the other sources? — I believe tliey always inquire as to that, so far as they can ascertain. There are frauds practised on the kirk-sessions in that way by parties, both concealing their income, and aggravating the details of their distress. 844 G. I believe persons apprehended for begging in the streets, are carried before the police court ? — All carried to the police. None are brought before us. 8447. Have you any knowledge of the way in which the children of the poor are edu- cated ? — I think, of the children of people engaged in manufactures, that it is impossible to imagine anything more neglected. When I first came here I could not understand the cause of the neglect bestowed in many cases by parents on their children. I think I do so now; it is owing to the great number of females; mothers of families who are en- gaged in the manufactories. The fathers are out at work, the mothers are engaged at work, and the children are turned out to the streets to do what they like. That takes place till they are of age to work in the cotton mills. So soon as they can work in the print fields, they are sent thither. I have seen them there when eight or nine years old. There is no time left for mental improvement or education. Unfortunately, I have found in a great many instances, from my own personal knowledge, and from what lias been proved judicially, that the parents are the worst enemies of the children ; for the great object is to get them out to situations as soon as possible, so as to get earnings for the family. Then thefather and the mother often lead a life of intoxication, living on the earnings POOR LAAV INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 471 of their children. I know that constant attempts are made to conceal the age of the Examinn-ions. children, in order to get tliem into the cotton-works, below the legal age, and those attempts nl l84Ji. cording to the descriptions given to me, by those who have been in the island, and from the accounts given by patients, who have actually come from that place, who have been afterwards under my charge, and with whom I have conversed when they were in a con- valescent state, the accommodation is wretched in the extreme : filth, vermin, bad diet, and ill usage. 8584. Do you know the number of paupers you have from the various parts of Scotland? —We have 130. 8585. Paupers ? — Paupers, or of the rank of paupers. Some of them are paid for by their relatives — some have pensions from their parishes, but all are in that class. 8586. What is the proportion from Glasgow or from the Barony parish? — I cannot teU theexact proportion, but I should say about fifty from both parishes. 8587. Do you know whether there is adequate accommodation in Scotland for lunatic paupers? — There is not at present. In the new asylum, which will be opened next month, we shall have accommodation for 350 to 400, and it is built on such a plan as to admit of extension. This building is not erected by means of any assessment. 8588. Will there then be adequate accommodation.? — Not for Scotland, or the district either. The nearest asylums we have are Dumfries and Edinburgh. Then if you take Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, Dumbartonshire, and Lanarkshire (supposing Stirlingshire to send their lu- natics to Edinburgh), we would require accommodation for 600 or 800 to provide for these counties. 858i>. In the north of Scotland, what accommodation is there .'' — In Aberdeen they have one, in Montrose a small one, and I have heard of one attempted to be got up at Inverness. They have one ward in the Infirmary for lunatics, but they have no regular establishment. 85y0, Would you recommend an assessment for the purposes of lunatic asylums ? — I don't see any other way in which lunatics can be properly taken care of; but change would be required in the manner of levying the assessment. It would not do to levy it on parti- cular parishes ; for a number of our lunatics who have settlements in the Barony and Glas- gow parishes, do not originally belong to them, and individuals who are scarcely above the rank of paupers, are continually pouring into them to swell the future list of paupers. I think it would be much better if the assessment were levied on large districts. 8591. If an assessment for lunatics were levied over the country, do you doubt whether the management would be more economical than under the present system ? — A great deal more economical. Some checking power would be required, but if that were the case, you would not have people kept for years in an insane state, and sent incurable to an asylum ; whereas, if their case had been attended to at first, the derangement might have been cured in two or three months. 4 8592. At the commencement it admits of remedy ? — At the commencement it admits of remedy. Ninety per cent, could be cured of the first attacks within the first two months, exclusive of idiots. 8593. Have you formed an idea of the proportion of idiots to the population, for whom accommodation should be made ? — No ; but I think not less than 800 lunatics and idiots in Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Ayrshire, and Dumbartonshire would require to be provided for. 8594. That is, not including those boarded out ? — I am taking those who belong to the district boarded out. I was lately applied to, to take some from Paisley^ they wished to send them to Arran, but the sheriff' refused warrant for their removal. 8595. Do you think it proper to send fatuous persons to an asylum ? — Yes ; they should not be intermixed with the ordinary lunatics, but should be in a separate ward. Their com- forts would be better promoted in this way. 8596. And do you think fatuous persons would be more happy in an asylum ? — If a good system were adopted — where there was no personal restraint — where there was occupa- tion. They would be much better off than if left to be boarded out with farmers or others. Many of those boarded out suffer from the treatment which they receive ; a number are capable of working a little, and so far of contributing to their own maintenance. 8597. That tends to promote their happiness ? — Their health and their happiness. 8598. How long have you been in Glasgow ? — Four years and more. I came in January 1839. 8599. Have you had any opportunity of becoming acquainted with the parochial poor, other than lunatics ? — When I was in Edinburgh many years ago, before coming to Glas- gow, I had a good deal of experience with regard to the poor. While attending to my studies, I acted under Dr John Gardner in the old dispensary there, and have since mixed much with them and those who were interested in them. 8600. Have you formed an opinion as to the management of the poor in the large towns of Scotland ? — At that time we had a great deal of support from the destitute sick society of Edinburgh ; when the patients required clothing or anything, I never thought of apply- ing to the parishes. 8601. Have you any suggestions to make as to pauper idiots and fatuous persons .-' — There is one thing which I have also noticed in my last report — the increase of cases, traced to intemperance and want. For some years the number of patients, whose malady may be attri- buted to these causes, has been increasing. In the 29th report, p. 36, this subject is noticed ./ 3 Q 482 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TILE Fi»ini nation 5. as follows : — " Next to hereditary predisposition, the most frequent causes of the disease in Glamow. jjjg cases admitted last year were intemperance and want. For some years, the number of Dr llutclieson. Patients whose msilady may be attributed to these causes has been increasing. The increase 24 April 1843. has been among the lower classes. In 1841, the cases which could be traced to intemper- ance were thirty ; in 1842 they were forty-six. In 1841, those arising from want amounted to five ; in 1842, to seventeen. I have no doubt that the cause of the increase of both is manufacturing and commercial distress, giving rise to lowness of wages and want of employ- ment. It maybe said, that when wages are low, and occupation difficult to be obtained, men will have less money to spend, and consequently will drink less. A pretty extensive observa- tion of the different grades of the working classes, for upwards of fifteen years, has convinced me that this opinion is erroneous ; for 1 have generally found, that want and intemperance go hand in hand. Whenever a man falls below a certain point in physical comfort, he becomes reckless, and sensual enjoyment forms his only pleasure. To this he will sacrifice everything ; and habits of intemperance are frequently acquired in seasons of distress, which the individual, in more favourable circumstances, finds it impossible to lay aside. Tem- perance and total abstinence societies may vaunt of the number of their members ; but their influence is null over the lower ranks of a manufacturing population. Their meetings, and the speeches of their itinerant advocates, may supply excitement to those in quest of it ; but the vn-etched and the dissipated come not within the influence of the blaze of their lights, the harmony of their concerts, or the charms of their oratory. The progress of abstinence societies in Ireland is to be attributed to the political and religious motives called into play, and the minute inspection and influence of the Roman Catholic priests. Mechanics" insti- tutes and large singing assemblies are equally powerless. AH these will attract the attention, and be beneficial to the more comfortable artizan ; but when the wants of nature are insuffi- ciently supplied for any length of time, and squalid poverty and misery is the lot of the individual, the offer of moral and intellectual enjoyment is looked upon as sheer mockery, and will be rejected with contempt, if not with loathing. Even the more powerful influence of Christianity is paralyzed, and withers in the presence of starving wretchedness ; and I look on it to be a vain effort to attempt any moral or religious improvement, unless, at the same, the wants of the body be supplied. The abject, reckless, and sensual classes of population, unless some means be taken to lessen their numbers, will continue to draw every T ear more and more largely from the funds of the industrious portion of the community, by supplying patients to asylums, and prisoners to jails.'' Another thing which tends to the increase of lunatics is intermarriage. These marriages are formed by paupers, without the least regard to consequences ; and though there is a strong disposition to insanity, they enter into marriage without scruple. Last year I had a visit from a man in the most abject state of poverty. I thought he was coming for charity. After asking a private interview, he explained to me that he was anxious to consult me as to whether I thought there was any great danger in his marrying a certain individuaL He then said that her father and mother had been insane; that she had been insane herself; and that she was eighteen years of age. This man could not be above twenty-four. I told him I thought he was in too wretched a condition for marrying; but as he wanted to know whether the children were likely to be mad, I told him there would be a very strong tendency to insanity, and asked him if he had many relatives insane. He said yes. And then I said, your children will to a dead certainty be insane, and very probably more so from the way in which they would be brought up. He said that he would run the risk. They must " fend " as they could as well as he. I never heard of him again. Those individuals are not in a condition to marry, from their state of wretchedness ; but this is going on among the paupers, increasing the quantity of insanity ; and I am sure that the mode in which many of the children are brought up, tends to increase it further. 8(502. In what precise way does want, in your opinion, operate to produce lunacy ? — In two ways. First, it reduces the system, and brings on disease. Lunacy is a physical disease ; the mind is manifested in a morbid manner, in consequence of the body being diseased. Want shatters the system ; it also makes the individual seek sensual enjoyment ; it makes him recklesss. 8G03. Depression of mind is produced ? — In some cases there is depression of mind also, resulting from constant suffering and misery ; hope deferred leading to perfect despair. These occur among classes who sink from better circumstances down to want. Then those who are accustomed to nothing but want become reckless. When they obtain anything, it is spent in a reckless manner. In consequence of the constitution being injured by want, and of the aggravation this injury receives from the reckless conduct of the individuals, you have a mass of disease engendered. You are aware that there is not a single establishment for lunacy, which owes its origin to an assessment, or is supported by an assessment. This one is built altogether by private subscriptions, and now, in consequence of the extension to meet the wants of the district, it will be left considerably in debt, and will still not be adequate to supply the wants of the community. 8G04. {Mr Camphell.) — You receive patients from all quarters of Scotland ? — Yes. 8605. Are lunatic paupers admitted in the asylums at Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, and Dumfries? — At Aberdeen and Dundee. At Perth and Dumfries, to a very limited extent. 8(506. {Mr Hohertson.) — You stated your opinion that in every case lunacy is a physical disease ? — Decidedly. When it arises from moral causes, these act on the body first, and then the disease of the body reacts on the mind. You never have it without the body suffering in the first instance. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 483 ExHiiiination*. Glasgow. James Kerr, younger, Esq., Receiver of Deposits, Govan Savings' Bank, Examined : — MTF^K^r. 24 April 184 J. 8607. Mr Campbell. — You are agent for a branch of tlie National Savings' Bank ? — Yes. 8608. Where ?— At Govan. 8609. What is the number of depositors ?— About 250. 8610. Of what class are they ; servants, mechanics, or labourers? — The population gene- rally have availed themselves of the bank. However, as regards domestic servants, I think they are somewhere about one-tenth of the whole number. 8611. Mechanics? — I can't exactly say ; but we have depositors from all classes of the working population. 8612. Do you find the higher class of artizans contribute equally readily with those who have lower wages ? — I don't conceive that generally high wages bring out a large amount of depositors, or even of deposits. 8618. Then you do not think that those who have the greatest means, deposit the greatest quantity of money in your bank ? — I do not think so. 8614. Nor is there a greater number of them than of those receiving smaller wages? — There is not ; the barriers, however, are not inherents of the larger wages ; they are, in many cases, distinctly traceable to evils with which they are associated, or to advantages from which they are dissociated — such as ready access to spirit shops and taverns, combi- nations, and other evil influences which are found to exist in connexion witlj public works or large congregations of workmen, on the one hand, and the want of the meliorat- ing influences of religious ordinances and education on the other. At the same time, it may be presumed, if not actually ascertained, that considerable numbers of this class do find very proper outlets for their whole earnings in a little extra personal and domestic plenishing. 8615. Do outdoor labourers make deposits? — A number do. 8616. Have you found the number of deposits much affected by the state of trade during the last two or three months ? — Living at a distance of three miles from the village, I had to relinquish the direct superintendence during part of winter and spring ; and there- fore cannot .speak so distinctly from the last two or three months ; but previous to that time 1 can answer as to the matter. 8617. Can you inform us whether there is a great diminution since the last making up of your accounts ? — I shall afterwards be able to supply this information.* In the mean- time I have made up copies of the reports since the commencement of the institution, — ■ they are all in order, and I don't doubt that I shall be able to bring out something satis- factory to you. — On 20th November last, the end of the legal year, the definite period at which we make up our annual statements, the number of accounts that had been opened was 319. 8618. Previous to November last .'' — Previous to November last, embracing a period of four years. Of these 107 had been closed, leaving 212 open accounts. They are made up perhaps, to a twentieth of young members of families belonging to the better class, minors who get occasionally small sums from their parents and friends. 8619. And deposit them with you? — Deposit them with us. Again, we have minors of another description, young people working in the silk factory and the dye works ; and again, young people connected with the small shopkeepers and others, whom I would regard as something above the mere working classes. The class of domestic servants is with us, as in general they are, pretty numerous. 8 620. Female servants ? — Female domestic servants. I don't suppose we have above three or four male domestic servants altogether. Of male farm servants and outdoor labourers, we have something like a mixed proportion with other classes. The weavers are both small in number, and their deposits are limited in amount. I don't suppose the weavers are above a twentieth of the whole number of depositors. A considerable number of our depositors may be found among shipbuilders and carpenters, in and around the village ; and 1 think we have from a dozen to twenty accounts opened in the name of provident societies, reli- gious institutions, and other associations of that description. We have, again, sums belong- ing to trustees for young people, which come into us, — sums perhaps of 10/., 201., and even 30/. ; and these have tended to raise considerably the amount of money brought into our institution. The total number of deposits, during fom- years, has been 3578, — the amount of money deposited 3367/. The amount the first year was 1235/., but that is no criterion of the others, inasmuch as we brought in a considerable amount of money from provident institutions, and a considerable amount in sums which had been previously accumulated by tradesmen's famihes. Thus the first year, the amount was much higher than subsequently. In 1840, the amount deposited was 788?. In 1841, 947/. In 1842, when the depression of trade took place, we had only 697/- With regard to repayments, the first year we had sixty-seven ; this is no criterion, as we had no foundation to work upon. In 1840, the number of repayments was 111 : in 1841, 128 : in 1842, 178, — making in all 484. The amount of money repaid in the first year, was 260/. : in the second, 4851. : in the * 111 the year ending November 20, 1842, decidedly the most trying year, the repayments were 178, amounting to 757/. ; but those of the half-year, ending May 20, 184-3, are considerably higher, being 109 amounting to 418/. The deposits of the same period would not have been adecjuate to meet this increase of payments, had they not embraced the accumulated earnings of several parties coming from a distance to reside in the village. 484 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, third, 585/. : in the fourth, 757/. And you will mark a very considerahle increase in the Glasgow. last, also occasioned by the distress. The balance due to individual depositors at the period „ of the fourth annual .statement, was ,1344/. The balance due to provident institutions, was 24 Ai.ril luJii. 408/., — making a total balance of 1752/. This shows a deficiency on the year of 21., whereas the second and third annual statements had shown an increase of 342/. and 41 ti/. respectively. I have always regarded the payments by the institution as a much better criterion of usefulness than the amount of its receipts, inasmuch as very many of our contributors have derived very considerable advantage from simply making the bank a place of temporary deposit for their money, till required for such things as rent, school wages, and other payments to be made in the course of the year. I shall give you an illustration of this immediately : — I leave out of view the first year of the institution, inas- much as it did not bear on the principle. Commencing with the second, and going through the three years, we had at Candlemas (which is not the rent quarter) 1840, 87/. : at Whit- sunday, 149/. : at Lammas, 97/. : at Martinmas, 150/. Again, at Candlemas 1841, we had 148/. : now here is a very marked increase, as compared with the corresponding period of the previous year : and that amount approximates very nearly to the amount paid at Whit- sunday and Martinmas of the previous year. It arose from the long continued frost, when everything like outdoor labour was suspended, and there was a great call for additional fuel and clothing. At Whitsunday 1841, the payments were 176/. : at Lammas, only (JS)/. : at Mar- tinmas, 192/. : at Candlemas 1842, 17(5/. Here is a very considerable rise again, and this I attribute partly to the influence of dull trade, and partly to other influences. There was an interference with the funds of the national securities savings' banks by the government, which excited very considerable uneasiness among the depositors. That uneasy feeling reached our village, and it is not to be wondered at that where there were chartists, advan- tage should be taken of it to create alarm. The villagers of Govan were not liable to Chartist influence, but where their little savings seemed involved, it is not surprising that they should have been afraid. That alarm was no sooner allayed than a government in- timation was sent out to ascertain from all actuaries, the number and description of de- positors, and the amount of their deposits. There is an extreme sensitiveness on the part of depositors, which no one knows, except one who has been taking charge of such an insti- tution as I do. 8()21. (Mr Tu-is!eton.) — What did they apprehend ? — They did not appear to have any clear notion about the matter ; but there was this of which they were afraid, — a weaver deposits a certain amoimt weekly, to meet rent, school wages, and other periodical demands ; that when it goes into the bank, has all the appearance of money saved ; whereas, it is only . money laid up there to be taken out at a given time, for. a given purpose. But when it was ascertained that a number of that class, who are so clamant for government inter- ference, are depositors, they supposed that their application could not be heard. One instance is quite in point ; it was that of a poor weaver who had been depositing a few shillings for rent. He told me he would gather his rent at home, where Sir Robert Peel and the government would not make a stone of it to break his head. We all know how much temptation there is to a tradesman from money lying at home in a corner of his chest, and by all means we ought to cherish such institutions as the present, and give the people confidence in their management. 8622. But the fact of this savings' bank being made a place for temporary deposit for money is known ? — By an intelligent person it might ; but many of our trades people are not very well educated, and could not reason well on the matter, and I generally find there is a false impression about the savings" banks, — they are universally regarded simply as savings' institutions instead of provident institutions, and their success is judged of simply by the gross addition made to their stock throughout the year. Progress is substituted for success in the public mind ; whereas I regard the last year's operations of our agency by far the most successful, although they loft a deficiency of 21., instead of an advance, as in former years, of 400/. One half of their value arises from their provident, apart from their saving, character. 8623. {Mr Campbell.) — The nature of deposits in a saving's bank comes to be very much like that of deposits in a cash-account in ordinary instances with a bank ? — They ought to be regarded in that light. 8624. Those you mentioned are of that character? — They are ; and if there could be a separation in the public mind, and with those attempting to legislate on the subject be- twixt the two, i. e. betwixt surplus earnings saved, and stinted earnings self-denyingly set a[)art for quarterly or half-yearly payments, it would be all very well. 8625. Then we are to understand that when an amount of money is deposited in a saving's bank, it is not the practice to allow it to accumulate, but to lift it in small sums, making it part of their current expenditure for the year? — Quite so, and many of our regular depositors have their bank accounts closed sometimes once, sometimes twice a year. 8626. You mean by closed, that the money is drawn out? — Yes, — temporarily closed — many leaving only Is. in their accounts at the rent time, simply to say that they are not closed. 8627. And you have no doubt that their deposits in the savings' bank are a great means of keeping them prepared for emergencies that may arise ? — None. 8628. Have you found the institution has tended very considerably to increase the pro- vident habits of the working classes? — It has, with its concomitant agencies. It would have done comparatively little good, had it not been taken up by the minister and session, and by the respectable classes of the community, as its patrons. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 485 8629. How did this encourage persons to avail themselves of it ? — I shall give you an Examinations, illustration. I hold a weekly meeting among the people of my district, at which I try to Olasoow. ascertain their family circumstances, and very frequently advert to savings' banks as means of improving their condition. Many families throughout the district have thus learned the -24 ^pj.;) 1'^^ value of the institution, and been led to take advantage of it. Again, when I had a small gratuity to bestow on villagers, I have given that not in money, but by opening a bank- account for the amount, requesting the individual, as he could, to add a little to it ; and almost invariably these accounts have come into beneficial operation. I mentioned one of these circumstances to Mr Rowand of Linthouse. I told him in how many instances this plan had been instrumental in cherishing provident habits, and he was so impressed with its importance, that he gave me 11., to open accounts in the name of young villagers who were commencing some employment. Out of the 20s. I opened seventeen accounts, as I found occasion in the course of my visitation through the parish ; and though some have been opened but a week or two, there are about a dozen of the villagers who are ope- rating upon these accounts. HG^O. By depositing further sums ? — By depositing Is., 2s., and in some instances even 5s., I don't say weekly, but at intervals. 8t)31. Then you found, when they commenced, that they had an inclination to go on with it .' — Yes ; there is a great tendency to go on with it. The difficulty is in the first step. K632. Does your intercourse with the lower classes of society bring you into intercourse with the poor, either those who are on the roll, or persons who are destitute ? — Not very intimately, inasmuch as Govan does not present a field which is very necessitous. 8633. Are you acquainted with the general operation of the poor laws in Scotland? — I am not. Living at a distance of three miles from the village, the scene of operation, I am prevented from attending the poor courts regularly. 8634. Is there anything you wish to suggest with regard to your own particular sub- ject, savings' banks ? — I conceive that, taken with such concomitants as those I have referred to, they are invaluable ; and with regard to the publicity given to matters connected with their internal management, it ought as much as possible to be avoided. I took occasion to address Sir Robert Peel on the subject at the time it was exciting so much public notice both in Glasgow and among ourselves ; and perhaps a reference to the letter would be the speediest way of coming at what I regard as a desideratum : — "48, Broomielau; Glasgow, ISth January 1842. " Considering what must be the pressure of your official duties on the near approach of a very important parliamentary campaign, I would cheerfully have withheld all preliminary remarks, had I not found them indispensible to the proper exhibition of my present object. — An illustration of the influence of public official interference with the national security sav- ings' banks, whether as regards their funds or their internal miinagement. " Govan is a village on the south margin of the river Clyde, three miles below the city of Glasgow. It contains a population of 483 families, consisting chiefly of hand-loom weavers, silk factory operatives, dyers, ship-carpenters, and outdoor labourers. In this village an agency of the national security savings' bank of Glasgow was formed in November 1838. The interest which I felt in the villagers, and which instigated the formation of the agency, led me, in the want of any legislative or self-originating fund to pay an agent and meet expenses, to undertake the gratuitous management of the institution, which I have con- tinued since. The agency was formed under favourable auspices, and for upwards of two years was attended with uninterrupted and unexampled success. Subsequently, however, it met with a temporary check from the late chancellor's injudicious under hand appro- priation of the funds of the savings' banks, and the no less injudicious harping upon it by the newspaper press, and chartist demagogues. Fortunately, however, the deficiency thus occasioned was covered from the knowledge of the villagers, by the funds of a family of minors coming into the bank previous to the publication of its subsequent half-yearly statement. " At its third annual balance, November 15, 1841, its open accounts were 218, or as five to every eleven families; the deposits during the three years had been 28G0, of which 1090 were at a shilling, and 948 between that sum and a crown ; whilst its whole personal de- posits did not average more than 17s. 2d. The amount deposited was 2970Z. 2s. 5d. ; the interest accruing to depositors 114/. 18s. The amount repaid 1330/. 10s. 5d. ; and the balance due to depositors on the 218 open accounts 1754/. 10s. It is almost superfluous to add, that the accumulation of so much money, in sums so minute and hard-earned, must have had a very beneficial influence on the personal and domestic economy and moral character of the villagers. That such has been its influence, I, in my superintendence as receiver of the bank, and as one of the district elders of the parish church can give most unequivocal testimony. From much mingling with the operative portions of the villagers in my official capacities, I can unhesitatingly say, that a better and more permanent foundation for true conservatism among the working classes cannot be laid, than that laid upon the national security savings' banks. Let a man but open an account in one of them, and all his previous chartist, democratic, and lawless notions, become numbered with things that were. " Such being my views of these national institutions, and such being especially my interest in the Govan agency, and such its beneficial results to the villagers among whom it is placed, I am painfully constrained to acquaint you, that since your parliamentary reference to the savings' banks as evidencing public prosperity, or rather the absence of commercial stagnation 486 AHNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TILE Kxaniiiiaiions. or distress — but more especially, since the issuing of official instructions to all national Glasgow. security savings' bank actuaries, to give a minute expose of the classes of persons making Mr J. KeiT deposits, that this highly valuable and hitherto popular village institution has been rapidly -'4.\|>iil I84:f. retrograding, both by a marked reduction of its deposits, and an increase of its payments. In order to give a summary view of this distressing change, I have subdivided its progress into quarters — the first eleven of which give a very gratifying individual as well as com- bined result, whilst the twelfth and six subsequent weeks give a very gloomy finish to the picture. And in order to show that it is in some degree referable to the causes mentioned, I may state that there has been no marked distress among any class of the villagers within the period. Security is the principal thing certainly, but without secrecy our operative population hold it as a cypher, and are fast ceasing to avail themselves of it ; hence the re- mark of a poor weaver on coming to withdraw a few shillings he had been depositing by weekly deposits to meet his rent : — ' We'll gather our rents at hame, where Sir Robert canna mak' stanes o' them to break our heads.' " The unprecedented success of the Govan agency has been, I believe, in a great measure attributable to the entire secrecy of its management. It has been an invariable rule of the institution, that never more than the officiating director, the receiver, and one depositor shall be admitted into the inner or telling apartment of the office at the same time, so that no depositor can witness the amount or description of his neighbour's transactions. But the person referred to above also remarked, that all our fine arrangements for secrecy would have to go to the winds before government orders. The information you desiderate, I grant, would be intrinsically valuable, but it may be acquired at a cost immensely too great. You may obtain it, and it may become the subject of government and parliamentary specu- lation, but it shall then have rent asunder the industrious and frugal habits of thousands upon thousands of our operative population. Let money once be withdrawn from the safe custody of the savings' banks, and placed in some corner at home of easy access, and it be- comes at once an incentive to, and an easy prey of, improper habits. " It would be the truest legislative policy as regards the working classes, to place the savings' banks on the surest and clearest basis, and freed from all mystification about the reduction of the national debt — a mystification that not only tells at all times mightily upon their primary progress, but gives immense impetuosity to any run or excitement that may be raised against them. I have met with very many intelligent men of business who could not fathom the necessity of even a nominal connexion between savings' banks and the national debt ; what, therefore, can be expected from illiterate depositors, many of whom can neither read nor write .'' But this legislative policy will not have been completed till the secrecy of their internal management and affairs shall have been rendered inviolable. " I have been the more unreserved and minute from agreeing with you in all the principal points of conservative policy ; and I trust the communication will be received in the same spirit, and with the same object in view, under which it was penned — the amelioration of the operative population of these kingdoms. I have the honour to be, &c. " JAMES KERR , Younger. <* Right ffon. Sir Robert Peel, Bart,, ij-c. ^x., Loudon.'' STATISTICS OF AGENCY. Accounts Amoant Amount Opened. Closed. Deposited. Repaid.: Quarter first 119 1 L.523 14 9* L.24 5 6 Average of the following ten quarters, 15/,, 4^% 233 8 11 111 8 11 Quarter twelfth, 5 16 111 18 10 191 15 4 Qvarterly rate of progress from annual balance till 31st Dec. inclusive, 6 4^ 67 17 9 135 4 5 8G35. From what you stated, I understand there is a great jealousy on the part of de- positors as to any person knowing their transactions ?— Very much. 8636. Do you think it essential to the efficiency of savings' banks, that there should not only be security for the property lodged there, but also perfect secrecy ? — Distinctly so. 8637. You have found that where inquiries were instituted by government, they pro- duced alarm, and induced individuals to withdraw their deposits? — Considerable alarm in the village of Govan, and a considerable number of deposits was withdrawn in con- sequence. 8C38. From your knowledge of savings banks, is the machinery such as to afford security against inquiry into the accounts ? — I should think so. 8639. (Mr Twisleton.) — Is there any other point you would suggest with regard to savings' banks ? — Nothing occurs at present. There is here a little appendix to the Govan reports, regarding my own work, — a nailery. I instituted a little agency for the work. The funds of that institution have been embraced in the Govan agency. When I took the superinten- dence, there were thirteen men in the work. From the thirteen I could not with certainty calculate upon an hour's work at anytime, so much were they given to intemperance. They very frequently did not begin their work till Tuesday, sometimes not till Wednesday ; and by Thursday, they would be back beseeching me for 6d. or Is. to keep their families from * This quarter embraced 80iiie previously accumulated sums, and cannot be taken as a criterion of future progress. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 487 starvation. At the time I instituted this agency, I invited them to drink tea and spend KNamiiiatione. the evening with me at one of our principal coffee establishments; and had a comfortable tii.Asoow. meal prepared for them. Before my connexion with the business, they used to be paid on Mr J. Kerr. Saturday evening. I attempted to change the pay to Tuesday. They said they would 04 April iiuij. reckon with ine any day, but would like me to keep the money till Saturday. In this way I would have had two pay days ; but subsequently I paid them at twelve o'clock on Saturday ; and although I had frequently seen several of them on a Saturday dead drunk before six o'clock in the afternoon, on that day I had them in the best condition. Their remark was, that they had not fine clothes ; but they were all clean. They had before been so disgusting in their outward appearance, I am sure a broker would not have given 10s. for all that was upon them, and I would have been glad to have had them off again, if they had come in their usual state. I feared it would be an unruly night. 1 took the warehouse people with me, and so far from being an uncomfortable evening, it was one of the most pleasant I ever spent with operatives. I laid before them a number of the advantages which I had elicited with regard to savings' banks — telling them what I had in view about Govan, and what about them ; and I urged upon them the advantage of temperance societies, — the principle of which at tliat time was in the ascendant. They got quite enthusiastic — quite in love with temperance and savings' banks ; and had I said who will join the savings' bank, there would have been none that would not have proposed making a deposit. I told them it was not the resolution of the Saturday night, but of the Monday morning that I wanted. F"ive of them came on Monday to make a deposit. They increased subsequently to nine. And they have more or less regularly continued since. One man I found working at his study on a New Year's day. He was an old man about sixty, — a violent politician, who had spent a great deal of time discussing the state of the nation, besides spending a great deal of money on drink. I found him this New Year's day busy and sober. He said he well might be sober to day, for it was the first New Year's day he had been so for thirty years. He has abstained from all intoxicating liquors for years, and also from obtruding politics. He is a regular but small depositor. He makes but a small wage, but he always contrives to have his rent ready by the term day, out of his own savings, besides making himself a new man externally. 8(540. And internally? — Internally also. There is another, who, up to last New Years day, was equally sober, till he fell labouring under intoxication. He is again saving money. He has one saving's bank book that he calls his sinking fund, in which he is depositing one shilling a week, to meet his necessities when laid aside from work, and another in which he provides for rent, &c. There is a number of other interesting cases connected with the work, which I might detail, but it might occupy too much time ; I have no doubt were a little kindly influence exercised by masters towards their workmen, and savings' banks and other institutions of that kind encouraged, it would have a very beneficial influence. This is summarily evinced in the appendix. 8641. {Mr Campbell.) — Do you know what is the feeling among the higher class of mechanics with regard to savings' banks. Is there a fear that the masters would know the deposits ? — Even that feeling has reached Govan. We have masters of public works there as directors, and the workmen are now perfectly convinced of the entire integrity of these directors. The suspicion was of very short duration, indeed. Those who were most appre- hensive on the subject have long ago declared the groundlessness of their fears. I know it is a very general feeling, but so far as my experience goes of the employers, there and else- M'here, it is altogether groundless. The superintendence is such that the directors can at once certify the accuracy of the accounts ; but not one of them could tell the state of an individual's account more than you can. From APPENDIX to Third Repout of the Govan Nation.vl Savings' K\nk Agency. Savings' Banks. — Public Works. Having often expressed our regret that an ill-founded jealousy on the part of workmen towards their employers should have so universally interfered with the progress of savings' banks, and having unsuccessfully endeavoured to trace the origin of this jealousy, we now turn with satisfaction to two instances in which workmen have availed themselves both of the counsel of their employers to become depositors in the savings' bank, and of their actual services as receivers of their weekly deposits. The one instance is that of Hood & Co.'s cooperage ; and the other that of Kerr & Co.'s nailery. The fifth annual report of the Glasgow National Savings' Bank, says of Hood & Co.'s cooperage, " This agency owes its origin to the laudable practice, common in similar establishments, of workmen leaving in their master's hands a small portion of their weekly wages to meet rent or other periodical charges for which they find it diffieult otherwise to provide. Instead of making detailed entries of these small sums weekly, the plan was here adopted of procuring for each work- man a savings' bank pass-book, putting therein, on Saturday, as the men received their wages, what they could conveniently spare. This method has been found to work admir- ably, and might be imitated generally, in extensive workshops or manufactories, with much practical benefit both to masters and servants. By obviating completely the interference of petty sums of this kind with regular cash transactions, it enables employers, with little trouble to themselves or their managers, materially to aid their workmen in providing for their personal or family comfort. Whilst they may thus be instrumental in cherishing 488 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniioations. Glasgow. Ml- J. Kerr. 24 April 1843. amongst them habits of prudent economy, as well as in discouraging and preventing habits of an opposite kind, the open pass-book presents a ready channel either for the master rewarding good conduct, by an occasional addition, on his part, to a deserving workman's deposit, or for the latter to put at once out of danger such extra earnings, or other small Bums as he may at any time become possessed of." In the agency now reported, nineteen of the workmen have availed themselves of the advantages thus afforded them ; and these nineteen have made in all 670 single deposits, or an average of thirty-five to thirty-six each. The gross amount deposited being 138/. 6s. 8d. , gives an average of 71. 5s. lid. each ; and the tendency of a plan, such as the one in question, gradually to lead on workmen to save money, is proved by the fact that at the end of the year, seventeen out of the nineteen, in fact the whole depositors remaining, had balances at their credit, averaging nearly 4/. 15s. 6d. each. Of the two other accounts opened, one was closed by the depositor's death, the other by removal. Kerr t^* Cu.'s Nailery. — This agency was formed at Martinmas 1838, at a soiree given by the managing partner to the people in his employment, principally with the view of cherish- ing that reciprocity of kindly feeling between the employer and the employed, without which the interest of neither is properly attended to, and of promoting those habits of temperance, industry, and economy, by which workmen are enabled to maintain an honourable and independent position at once with their employers, and with society at large. Nailers are proverbial for having a spark in the throat not easily quenched, but notwithstanding this there were seven savings' bank accounts open at the end of the first year among the twelve connected with this nailery, and they have since been increased to ten. The total number of deposits has been 251 ; the amounted deposited 48/. 18s. 4d. ; the number of repayments 21 ; the amount repaid, 25/. 9s. 3d. ; and the balance remaining, 23/. 9s. Id., or an average of 21. 7s. to each of the ten depositors. Whilst the success of these workshop or manufacturing agencies forcibly suggests the immensely increased amount of saving habits which, by adopting the very simple plan now described, masters of public works, and other employers, might so easily diifuse amongst our manufacturing population, it furnishes at the same time practical proof that where they are judiciously dealt with, the bugbear objection of their masters knowing what they deposit, has not upon operatives generally the repulsive influence that is supposed. In the present instances the whole deposits made by the workmen have come directly through their masters' hands, without the slightest symptom of reluctance. TABULAR VIEW of GO VAN PROVIDENT INSTITUTIONS. Designation. Formed. Members. Entry Money. Stated Payments. Accumu- lated stock about. Number. Classification. Quarterly. Annual. Old Weavers, ... 1756 175 £0 5 6 £Q 1 £600 Victualling, 1800 100 2 6 700 Friendly, 1815 40 5 6 ^0 1 1 250 Brotliei'ly , 1816 60 5 6 1 1 340 United Youths, 1821 200 1 1 1 120 Dead Protecting, 1822 150 1 Villagers, Other Parishioners, Non-Parishionerg, Unmarried, 8 11 16 6 6 6 9 6 6 6 1 60 ) A levy of 2d. 4d. and 6d. is Funeral, 1834 311 I Married without families, Married with families. 1 1 6 6 made upon the several classes of members, as often as deaths render it needful. [ 30 £2000 GREENOCK. POOR LAW INQUIRY COM^nSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 489 ■ GREENOCK, Ezaininationi, Greekock. 35 April 1843. Tuesday, 25th April 1843. HEMBERS PRESENT. James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., M.P., Edward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. JAMES CAMPBELL OF CRAIGIE, ESQ., IN THE CHAIR. Dougall MacEwen, Esq., Collector of Assessment, and Kirk-Treaeurer of the East Parish, Mr D. MacEwen. Examined : — 8642. {Mr Campbell.') — You are klrk-treasurer of the east parish, Greenock? — Yes. 8643. You collect the whole assessment in Greenocli ? — It is all one parish, and I collect the whole. I am collector of poor rates, and I also pay the poor of the east parish, and of the guoad sacra parish of Cartsdyke. 8644. How is the assessment laid on? — One half on rental; the other half on means and substance. 8645. Wliat was the amount of assessment last year? — In 1842, 9d. per pound. 8646. What was the gross amount? — 5844/. last year, was the gross assessment. 8647. (Dr M^Farlan.) — Can you inform us of the total collections from 1842 to 1843 ? — The gross collection in the three churches, including mortcloth dues and proclamations, was 297/. 16s. 2d. in 1842. In the middle parish, the kirk-session made an arrangement with the heritors, and we only get 70/. from them to the parish fiinds. 8648. And the treasurer does not pay the whole amount of the collection ? — No. They agree to take 70/. from Mr Smith's session. 8649. What was the reason for giving him a deduction ? — They threatened, unless the heritors made that agreement, that the collections would dwindle off'. 8650. And to what purpose is the other portion of the collection applletl ?— They said at the time, for religious purposes. 8651. {Mr Campbell.) — Can you Inform us of the nmnber of poor on the roll receiving relief? — We close the books In February; there were then 973 ordinary paupers and 276 orphans. 8652. Had you, besides, occasional poor, — and what was their amount? — 713. 8653. Of what description are the occasional poor? — Poor people out of employment; and others relieved preparatory to their being put on the roU. 8654. While their claims are under Investigation ? — They give them occasional aid, and 60 keep them on for several months. 8655. What is the highest amount of allowance to those on the regular roll? — In the case of an old bed-ridden person, 10s.; some have so high as 128. a month; but 10s. is generally the highest. * 8656. What is the lowest ? — There are none on the roU under 28. 6d. a month. 8657. What aliment is given to a widow with one chUd, or do you give aliment to a widow with one child ? — Sometimes they do, unless she has some other way of subsisting. Sometimes widows get 4s. or 5s. a month, which is understood to be for the chUd. 8658. What age must the child be ? — The younger the child the more they require ; the allowance Is rather reduced as the child grows. 8659. Then 5s. is the highest to a widow with a child under twelve years old ? — I don't think any higher is given. 8660. At what period does the aliment of a widow for a child cease? — If a girl, it ends when she Is twelve years old ; if a boy, at fourteen. 8661. Suppose a widow with three or four children under seven years of age, what allow- ance would you give ? — It depends on the circumstances of the woman at the time she applies. 8662. Suppose her in good health, but with no particidar means of subsistence, except what she could make by her own labour, and having these children to take care of? — It varies from 5s. to 8s. when they are young. 8663. Do you know whether the session are In the habit of giving assistance to able- bodied persons out of employment ? — No. They are not in the habit of doing so ; and It is only since the relief committee was established in the town that able-bodied persons have been getting a little assistance. 8664. That is not from the poor fiind? — The session has granted, since the beginning of March, a certain sum for able-bodied persons towards a soup-kitchen. They don't give money. 8665. That is paid out of the rate? — Out of this year's rate. 3 R 490 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE .Examinations. 8666. "Wli.it sum have they given up to this time ? — 543Z. 14s. has been given to the Grkenock. committee for managing the soup-kitchen from the different parishes. Mr D MaoKwcn. 8667. Have you any connexion with the i-elief committee yourself? — None. 25 April 1843. 8668. Have you had occasion to visit the houses of those receiving rehef? — I seldom have occasion to go to their houses. I see them on pay day. The elders go to their houses. 8669. In what state do those receiving relief appear to be ? — Most of them appear verj' poor. They have no other resources but from the parish. 8670. Is there any other fund under yoiu* management except what is derived from the poor rates ? — All Dr M'Farlan's, IMr Smith's, and Mr Menzies' collections are put into the general fund. 8671. The collections and assessments fonning one common fund? — Yes. 8672. How iloes each parish get its proportion out of the common fund? — Tliey apply monthly. Each elder gives a signed list of paupers monthly. These are given to the super- intending committee monthly ; the kirk-treasurer's accounts are also examined monthly ; each parish then draws what it requires for the month, and I pay each treasm'er the sum re- quired to pay the poor. The meeting at which this is done is held generally on Friday before pay-day. 8673. A\nio gives authority to ])ay the sums required for the j^oor monthly? — There is a committee of management, called the superintendipg committee, elected on the first Tuesday of Fcbiiiaiy, April 18115. ten years ago we made out a list by order of government. 8845. How many sejiarate boards of management for the relief of the poor are there in Greenock? — There are seven. Mr Laughton has no session. There are three established and four quoad sacra. 8846. Do the quoad sacra sessions take charge of the poor ? — Excepting Mr Laughton's. 8847. And each have charge of their own poor ? — Yes ; each within their own district. But they are threatening to give up the management of the poor. Mr Macbean has given ' notice that he is not gohig to take charge of the poor after May. 8848. Then Greenock is an instance of a parish with one mode of settlement and seven kirk-sessions ? — Yes. 8849. (I)r M'^Farhn.) — Do you find the division of labom- disadvantageous ? — I expected the division would add considerably to the poor rates, and I find I was particularly correct, for the more sessions you make the more money the poor require. 8850. Do you think it advantageous in other respects? — Yes. I think the poor are better off. 8851. Then it is advantageous to the poor ? — The poor are better off; but the people who have money have more to pay. 8852. But how do think having so many kirk-sessions increases the number of the poor ? — I cannot give any proper reason, but such is the fact. If you were to make fourteen out of the seven, you woidd find that more money would be required. 8853. But would you not have a more accurate inspection when you had many ? — They are better found out. 8854. Then don't you think the effect would be to check imposition, and on the other hand to have better charge taken of the poor ? — I daresay the poor are better taken care of; but fi"om what I recollect in Dr M'Farlan's parish, their number has increased amazingly since there were four parishes instead of one. Mr John BlanV. John Black, Esq., Law- Agent, Examined : — 8855. (Dr M'Farlan.) You are an elder in the old parish, Greenock ? — Yes. 8856. How long have you been so ? — For eighteen years. 8857. Have you been in the habit of attending the kirk-session regularly ? — Yes, ever since I was ordained an elder. 8858. You are also law-agent for the superintending committee ? — Yes. 8850. Is it your invariable practice to attend its meetings also .' — Yes, ever since I was appointed a member of committee. I have been a member of the superintending commit- tee for twelve years. 8860. Will you state to us the form of application on the part of a person in poor cir- cumstances .'' — When a person becomes poor there are printed forms we have, for which application is made to the kirk-treasurer, who gives one. That is filled up, and afterwards attested by two rate-payers. 8861. Then what is the procedure of the kirk -session of the old parish in these circum- stances .'' — The individual attends the kirk-session, before whom the petition is laid. It is referred to the elder of the district and an auxiliary, or to. two elders, to inquire into the facts. At next meeting of session their report is brought in, which is either approven or disapproven, and the moderator signs either the rejection of the kirk-session, or the order for what is fixed upon by the kirk-session. 8862. And the kirk-session fixes the rate of allowance ? — Yes. I have with me a form of petition which was remitted to myself and two others, for examination just now. 8863. After the application is granted what is done? — There is a ticket given from the kirk-session, similar to that which I produce. It lasts only for one year ; it is renewed every year. 8864. And that ticket is put into the hands of the pauper ? — Into the hands of the pau- per, and he' attends regularly the first Saturday of every month, and gets the money marked in the ticket, from the kirk-treasurer. 8865. Have you found that system work well ? — Very well. 8866. Do you think the result is. that imposition and fraud are prevented, and destitute persons attended to ? — Generally it is, though I must confess that there are many instances in which these tickets find their way to individuals who give something upon them ; and such individuals come and get payment, and we have no check on the abuse. 8867. Could you give an illustration ? — For instance, one of these tickets might be left in a pawnbrokers, who could come with tlie ticket, and get the money. 8868. Do you find that intemperance prevails to any great extent among the poor on the roll ? — Not in my own district, but in some districts there are individuals addicted to drunken- ness ; but in such cases the session have struck them off, and ordered a grocer to give them victuals. 8869. Do you not think that as to giving the ticket to the pawnbrokers, making it the POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 497 rule that the individual should present the ticket himself, would check the abuse? — Cer- Kxaminatiom. tainly, and the rule is adopted by our kirk-session. Knowing that these individuals are in Grkkmuk. the habit of selling their tickets for spirits, or pawning them, I have directed Mr Monro to -., i ■ W, , 1 • 1 -ii ,1 • T • 1 1 ^ 1 1 , ^1 i Mr John Black. stop the tickets till the individual came forward and got the amount. 25 April 184:(. 8870. Do you think a great deal of destitution is prevailing in Greenock at present ? — A great deal. 8871. I refer not to the able-bodied, but to the other poor? — -The fact is, the poor of G-reenock are so little attended to in the way of getting payment — the sums allocated are 80 little since trade has got so dull, that those of them who depended on other sources have been greatly reduced from these having been cut off, and this last year fearful destitution prevailed among the poor. 8872. Arising from the depression in trade and manufactures ? — Yes. 8878. Are they worse since February last? — In consequence of the prospects then looked forward to, of no work for the labouring classes, the kirk-session were obliged to provide for the families of those who were out of work, and after a meeting of influential gentle- men in the town, a resolution was come to, that an additional sum should be assessed for the loss which the poor would sustain, in consequence of the labouring people not being able to assist them. On my list there were twenty-three widows ; only a few had 4s. a month : they were supported by neighbours, tradesmen, or by their children and relatives. This stagnation has made those who were supporting them as poor as themselves. 8874. Had all private subscriptions and other means of assisting the poor failed at that time ? — They had. 8875. And it was the destitution of those who were dependent on the able-bodied poor that led to that assessment? — Yes: there was a voluntary assessment previous to the re- gular assessment, in the month of August, but one half of it, I believe, was not got. 8876. And what was the reason? — You could not enforce payment, — and the people were not disposed to pay. 8877. And was it found that it was raised unequally, and that they objected on that ground .' — Yes. 8878. From your knowledge of the West Parish, and of the poor generally, do you find that the sober living poor are generally in a good state ? — Yes. 8879. {Mr Twixletoti.) — If the other means which the paupers had for subsistence were taken away, why was the additional assessment not applied to increasing the allowance of the paupers ? — We were obliged to apply it in that way, but the funds were limited. We were obliged, in addition, out of this extra fund, to make up the deficiency of last year. 8880. Have you difficulty in obtaining the additional assessment ? — Very great difficulty indeed. There are about sixty appeals lying over to be discussed, and one-half of those on the books is not yet disposed of, 8881. What is the ground of appeal ? — That they are overcharged. 8882. That is independent of the question whether the assessment is large or small. That refers to the proportion each individual appealing has to j>ay ? — It applies to both. When the calculation is made as to heritage, or ways and means, the calculation is made of the sum which the individual is to be charged. Then the objection is taken that it is too much — that his income is not that ; and there is also a very great objection, that the sum to be assessed is far too great for the parish of Greenock, in consequence of the assess- ment having risen within the last ten years. 88813. But if it be legally applied, is it for the rate-payers to determine how the assess- ment shall be fixed, or does it not rest with the heritors and kirk-session ? — It rests with the heritors and kirk-session ; but that is the feeling through the community. 8884. But that is no ground of appeal ? — Of course not. No attention is paid to that. 888.5. Then if the heritors and kirk-session thought it expedient to make a larger allowance to the paupers, they might obtain a larger assessment ? — They could, but the question would be subject to consideration, whether they would be able to assess for the able-bodied for instance. 8886. If raised for objects which were undoubtedly legal, could the rate-payers object to pay ? — No, if they are able to pay ; but in many cases they are unable. I know widows who have property, and are not able to support themselves on the rents. Suppose a bond on any of those properties, it cuts off any actual benefit to the proprietors, and no deduction is made on account of such bonds. 8887. That does not refer to the amount of assessment ? — It is not to the amount, but to the hardship in such cases. 8888. I understand that if you had thought that, without creating dissatisfaction, you could have raised the assessment, you would have increased the allowance to the paupers? — Certainly, we have been obliged to increase the allowance this year from the cause I have now mentioned. 8889. So as to make them adequate to the wants of the paupers ? — Not adequate to their wants ; the highest I have upon my roll is a widow with 10s. a month for herself and seven children. 8890. {Mr Camphell.) — What are their ages ? — The oldest is fourteen, the others twelve, ten, eight, six, and four, and the youngest nine months. 8891 . {Mr Twisleton.) — Are any of the children at work ? — Not for the last twelve months. 8892. How have they subsisted ? — By their mother going about endeavouring to get a subsistence from the public. 8893. By begging? — I would not say begging, — she rather receives assistance from benevolent individuals. 3 S 498 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniinatioiis. GbE KNOCK, Mr John Bl&ck. 25 April la43. 8894. By private solicitation ! — By private solicitation, not by begging. She was en- gaged for some time in making small things, such as puddings. By the aid of her neigh- bours she was able to carry on ; but I have been obliged to give her additional aid this vear besides the 10s. The lowest on my roll is 2s. a month, and the highest 7s. for a bed-rid person. The woman at 2s. is aged sixty-throe, and the highest is aged seventy-three. SSOT). Has the one with 2s. some relations, or is she healthy enough to work 1 — She was a washerwoman, and was not able to do anything for some time, but she has no relatives. 8896. 8897. 8898. 8899. for rent, 8900. How does she do ? — Those in the district give her a little. (JJr M'Farlan.) — Poes she get from the Female Benevolent Society ? — 1 think Is. {Mr Twisleton). — Then that is 3s.? — Yes, and the other has also Is. And what would the woman, aged sixty-three, give for rent ?— 2s., that would go Then for food — only the shilling a month from the Benevolent Society ? — Yes. Three of them live together, and they pay M. 15s. of rent — that is equal to \L 5s. each. 8901. {IJr M'Farlan.) — What earnings has she from other sources? — Were she able by washing to do anything, she would get Is. a day ; that is about the average payment when people are so employed. 8902. (Mr Hohertnon.) — In the case of the bed-rid person with 7s., is there no further allowance for taking care of her ? — No ; her daughter, who earns a little by sewing, takes care of her. 8903. In enlarging the assessment last year, you did not ostensibly assess for the unem- ployed ? — Not exactly directly for the unemployed, more for the purpose of providing for the demands of the soup-kitchen. 8904. I understood you to say that the enlarged assessment was to make up to the people what, in ordinary times, they would have got from their neighbours and relatives? — ' Yes, and partly from the families of those who could not get employment. A great pro- portion were such as boiler-makers, founders, and even carpenters and smiths. Some went to England or Ireland to get work, and it was necessary to provide for their families. The only way was by giving a daily portion of soup. 8905. Then these families became part of the poor ?— So long as aid was given. 890C). {Mr Tidslcton.) — Any additional sum, raised on the ground that the paupers were not supported by the operatives, would have gone to increase the allowance of the paupers themselves?^ — Of course it would, were it not for the cause I have already mentioned. 8907. The money given to the families of the unemployed was on a totally different footing ? — Quite a different footing. No money was given, but entirely provisions. 8908. How often do you consider it yom* duty to visit tlie poor in your district ? — Once every month, or every two months. 8909. Is that common? — I am not sure. I can speak only for myself. I know many of the elders are pretty regular. 8910. Have you reason to believe that there is considerable variety in their diligence ? — I have little doubt of that ; many individuals cannot find time for the attention which would be requisite, but that is made up by the poor calling on the elders themselves. But they inquire at the neighbours, if they are not satisfied with the statement made by the poor themselves. 8911. From your observation, do you think that begging, or making private solicitations to the wealthy has a favourable effect on the character of the poor ? — Certainly not. I have known instances in which the poor would rather suffer starvation than go out and beg. 8912. {I)r M'Farlan.) — They have no objection where charity is offered to them ? — No ; though there are some instances in which you would require to give aid, in a way different fi'om the ordinary run of individuals requiring support. For instance, in the case of a female with a small family not on the roll, I should consider it proper to leave the relief without the knowledge of the family, giving it to the individual so as to preserve the independence of the younger branches of the family. 8913. That arises from reluctance to receive relief? — Yes, I have found that frequently. 8914. In cases where elders have not time to visit themselves, should they not have the assistance of a superintendent to perform the duty ? — Certainly ; ajid 1 am very much afraid that if the poor increase as they have done in Greenock, they would require a superin- tendent., 8915. Paid? — The treasurer is a paid superintendent. 8916. But for the investigation of cases of people at their own houses.'' — It would be desirable. 8917. Are the children of parties on the parochial list sent to school? — Yes. 8918. And part of the duty of the kirk-session is to look after their education? — Yes it is. There is another class, orphans left without father and mother, whom the session take charge of, boarding them out at 8s. a month. 8919. {Mr li.oJiertson.) — But when they are of an age to be sent to school, how are the school fees paid ? — There is a charity school in Greenock, where no fees are paid. 8920. 8s. is the allowance ? — We have no difficulty in getting orphans brought up at that ,rate in the country. 8921. To what classes are they sent? — To small farmers or cottars in the country. 8922. {JJr M'Farlan.) — From, long experience in the town of Greenock, do you think an assessment has any such effect as to destroy the spirit of independence of which you spoke ? — It is a considerable cause. 8923. Have you found fewer instances of parties unwilling to receive assistance from POOR LAW INQUIRY COMJIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 499 the poor fund since the assessment ? — There are fewer instances of refusal, because they consider it a right now. 8924. Are there any instances of parties demanding it as a right ? — Frequently. 8925. In the capacity of law-agent to the superintending committee, have you any in- formation to give to the Commission with regard to the proceedings of the superintending committee in disputed cases ? — We have had none since I came on. We have a case with the parish of Dysart, commenced last month, about an insane person. 8926. That is the only one within what period ? — Since I have been connected with the committee, and I don't recollect a case since Mr MacEwen has taken the charge generally as treasurer. 8927. Do you think it desirable to alter the term prescribed by law for the legal period of settlement ? — I should think so. I would respectfully suggest that it should be either seven or ten years. I have known cases where the three years have just been out, and application has been made ; and we have instances in which individuals have been sent back to prevent them from having a permanent claim elsewhere. 8928. Can you mention any cases ? — We have had several with Paisley. We found, on investigation, that they wanted the parties sent back to Greenock within the three years ; but it was found that they had lived the three years, and we insisted on their being retained. 8929. These would be cases of disputed settlement ? — Yes, if we were going to litigate. 8930. (Dr M^Farkm). — But there were no law proceedings? — No. 8931. Those are not cases of individuals who have been sent away ? — There are such. I found a case of a man, belonging to Port-Glasgow, about six months ago ; he left Port- Glasgow upwards of two years ago. I desired the superintendent to intimate to the authorities at Port- Glasgow, that they must take charge of his family ; the three years don't expire till Whitsunday. 8932. They are not paupers ? — Not on the roll. 8933. What was the object in coming to Greenock ? — The husband came to Greenock as a labourer, — a carter. Three years ago there was a great demand for labourers and otlier workmen. 8934. But do you know any cases of labourers coming to Greenock to obtain a settle- ment? — I could not condescend upon that. 8935. Do you know any cases of Irish coming for that purpose ? — I have had occasion to attend the relief committee since it has been necessary to have a committee distributing provisions, and I found that a considerable proportion of Irish were just within the three years when they made application ; but almost universally they requested a sum to be sent back to Ireland. The sum for relief is so small, that they would rather go back to Ireland, where their friends and relatives are situated. 8936. Then you do not consider that there is an undue proportion of Irish on the list ? — I do not, taking into account the number of Irish that were required as labourers here for some period on the railway, and during the erection of harbours. They came over and just located themselves, becoming part of the parish population, just as if they had been born here. 8937. Then they were valuable to the town ? — At the period. 8638. Have you found any difficulty with country parishes with regard to the settle- ment of paupers ? — I have the case of an insane sailor, belonging to Stornoway in the Isle of Lewis ; he was within the three years here ; the parish was obliged to support him for sometime; he was sent home, and application was made for the sum advanced, which amounts to Al. 5s. The following are the letters received from the minister of the parish on the subject. [The witness then read the following letters from the Rev. John Cameron, Stornoway :] — Examinations. Oreenock. Mr John Black. 25 April 184:5. I. — Letter, Rev. John Cameron, Stornoway, to Mr John Gumming, Session-clerk, Greenock. Stornoway, July 15, 1842. Deak Sir, — I received your letter of the 5th July, addressed to the kirk-sesslon of Stornoway, relative to Murdoch Smith, seaman. I know the young man, and all the family ; his sisters served in my family. 1 also know that he was articled to Mr Nicolson, shipowner here ; that he served his apprenticeship as seaman on board one of his vessels, and received his certificate from Mr Nicolson at the expiry of the term, January 1836. Since that period he has been only twice in Stornoway. He was here for the second time since 1836, on a visit to see his aged mother last year, while his wife lived in Greenock, where they had been married, and in which they have their domicile. For the last six years he has been sailing from the Clyde, — from these facts he has no settlement in this parish, and consequently can have no claim upon it. Though it were otherwise, the kirk-session have no funds to meet such demands. Our collections do not amount to 20/. sterling per annum. They average about 8s. per week, and this sum is distributed annually among 179 paupers. There is no assessment ou heritors or feuars in this parish. — Dear Sir, Yours, &c. 506 MINUTES OF E^T:DENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Kxaniinations. (inFKNOOK. II. — Rev, John Cameron to John Black, Esq., Writer, Greenock, Mr John Black. 2fi April 11(4;!. To7ig Manse of Stornowmj, Fehruary 2, 1848. Dkar Sir,- — Yesterday being our monthly meeting day, I laid your letter of the 12th January before the members of the kirk-session of Stornoway. They, after deliberating upon its contents, unanimously resolved to resist the demand made for alimenting Murdoch Smith, as he had no domicile here ; he had been sailing from Clyde, and had been absent from Stornoway for the space of five years, except for a few days, when he paid a visit to his mother, who is blind. Murdoch married and resided with his wife in Greenock till you sent him here ; — he can have no claim upon this parish for three years. I am advised by the session to say, that they are inclined to apply to your session to pay his passage back to Greenock, and to be refunded for the relief they afforded him since he came hither. Our weekly collections only average 9s. to meet the wants of 200 paupers ; there is no assessment here on heritors as yet. — 1 am, &c. III. — Rev. John Cameron to John Black, Esq., Writer, Greenock. Tong Manse of Stornoway, Mqrch 28, 1843. Dkar Sir, — I received yours of the 21st, and though the monthly meeting of the session does not take place till the first Wednesday of April, I deem it proper to reply to your request. I think I shall prevail upon the members to comply, and as soon as funds can be collected to meet the demand, I shall transmit the sum, upon my own responsibility, to you through the post-office. The session consider it a hardship to aliment one who has been so long absent from the parish, and the rest of the family being a burden upon our scanty fund, 8s. per week. — I am, &c. 8939. {Mr Twisleton.) — Was Stornoway the birth settlement? — Yes, 8940. Before you sent him to Stornoway, did you communicate with the clergyman ? — —Yes. 8941. Did he state that he would receive the pauper ? — He did not. 8942. Then, in fact, it was a ease of disputed settlement ? — In one way it was ; hut the man Smith got better, and was able to go himself to Stornoway. He was kept in a private house under restraint, and, so soon as he was well, was sent by a steamer to Stornoway. After he was away, I was ordered to raise diligence for recovery of the money advanced, which Mr Cameron says he is now to pay. 8943. If there were nothing in the letter with regard to the absence of an assessment, as a reason for not paying, would it not appear to you entirely a case of disputed settle- ment ? — Of course, it came under the head of disputed settlements, so far as regards the question whether we could not establish that he had not been three years with us, which was perfectly evident he had not. The case with Dysart is a case of disputed settlement. 8944. Are the law expenses for disputed settlements kept under a separate head in Greenock ? — We have had none as yet, except the case of Dysart. 8945. Then, though there may be some difficulty in obtaining money from country parishes, you don't often resort to law ? — Not if we can avoid it. From our knowledge of some parishes, they are so poor that it is better to pay a few shillings than to go to law with them. 894G. Would you not recover the money if you succeeded ? — I have no doubt we would. There was a case of a woman, forty years out of the parish, sent from the parish of Dairy in Ayr.shire. 8947. {Mr Robertson.^ — But, practically, have any cases of settlement occurred, where the claim lay against a country parish, and where you have not been refunded for the expense of the pauper here ? — I am not aware that any such case has come under my observation. We have had correspondence with parishes, but have not thought it necessary to proceed against them. 8948. When the settlement has been acknowledged by the country parish, and when that parish has not refunded, has any such case occurred .'' — I am not aware of any such case. 8949. {I)r AfFarlan.) — Is it the invariable practice to give a supply till the settlement is determined 1 — We generally do so here, and advise the parish at a distance that such and such a pauper has applied, wishing to know how the pauper is to be sent home. 89.50. {Mr Twisleton.) — Do you ever send paupers to other parishes without communi- cating with those parishes ? — 1 don't recollect any case. We had a case where a party was chargeable on the parish of Cardross in Dumbartonshire, across the water. Receiving no answer from the minister, I put him into the hands of an officer, and sent him across. 8951. Do you find paupers sent back to you without communication with you previously? ■ — Frequently. In a case which came the other day, we could find no trace of her parish, till, by mere accident, the officer learned the circumstances. She was very weak, both in body and in mind, when she came here. She is since dead. The note brought here was from Kilmacolm parish, above Port-Glasgow, stating that she had been sent from Loch- winnoch. 1 wrote the minister, and he wrote me back that she had been sent through POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 501 his parish as sent from Kilwinning. From Kilwinning we learned that she had been sent from Dunlop. I wrote also to Mr Dickie, the minister of Dunlop. He wrote that she belonged to Paisley. She lived for several weeks in Dunlop, but finding her getting worse, they thought it better to send her to her birth-place, which was here. S952. Is it common to give a pass?— The magistrates give a pass. 8y53. Do you approve of the system 1 — I think it is the means of enabling poor people to get to their places of settlement. Were a pass not given to them, they would in all pro- bability be sent back to the parish whence they came. 8954. But in comparison with paying their expenses, and charging these on the parish ? — It would certainly be much better to pay, and to charge, than to have them going through the country. 8955. Does not the present system lead to ragrancy ?^ — ^It certainly does, by the parties being obliged to beg from one parish to another to enable them to subsist. 8956. (/>/• M'Farlan.) — From your experience, are the poor better or worse off at present than they usually are ? — I think them better off this year than for many years. 8957. Absolutely better, or have they more money ? — Absolutely better, and in conse- quence of the fund for the unemployed. They have got a share of that, and provisions are a very different thing from what they were four or five years ago. 8958. With regard to able-bodied persons, would it be necessary to have a change of the law with respect to them ? — Certainly some change, to prevent litigation. This parish was threatened, by the unemployed, to be brought into court. Now, had it not been for the kindness of the provost, and the subscription of funds for the unemployed, they could not have been prevented going into court, and trying the question. 8959. Do you think it proper that they should be recognized as objects for parochial relief? — In the event of a stagnation of trade, such as this last year, it certainly would be desirable that some provision should be made. 89G0. In ordinary times, without reference to this particular stagnation of trade, does it often happen that there are destitute people in Greenock who are able-bodied .' — Very sel- dom. I have known two or three instances, where, in consequence of the head of the house having got himself injured, and off work for a time, it has been necessary to give tempo- rary assistance, but not necessary to take any on the poor roll. 89(51. Supposing there were power granted legally of raising an assessment during a period of stagnation of trade, in what body would it be desirable to vest the power of decid- ing whether an assessment should be levied ? — Of course, those who are obliged to pay it would be reluctant ; it would be better to have a body separate from the rate-payers. They, as a body, would find it not for their interest to have an assessment for such persons. 8962. And what disinterested tribunal would you suggest? — 1 presume the Court of Session would have the power. They, in the case of Ceres, have taken on themselves the power as to augmenting allowances. 89G3. Do you think the Court of Session would be a proper court for determining whether such an assessment should be raised? — Either the Court of Session or the sheriff of the county. 89(54. {Mr Robertson) — You stated that it was necessary to increase the allowances to the poor this year, because, from the great distress among the working classes, that assistance which the poor formerly received from their neighbours, was withdrawn ? — Yes. 8965. Do you mean to state that, in ordinary years, the allowances from the poor funds are eked out from the charity of the neighbours of those who have no other sources ? — Fre- quently. 8966. So that what the small allowances leaves unsupplied, falls as a burden on the working classes who assist their neighbours to make up the difference ? — Yes. 89(57. With reference to a former question, do you consider that the present assess- ment falls very heavily upon persons who hold the smallest amount of income under the act? — Yes; the assessment is not made lower than 40/. income, but the pressure is on individuals having houses, for the rate is 5/. per cent, on property. 8968. Then you mean that it falls heavily on those who have houses, but not so heavil}' on those who are assessed on means and substance ? — Not so much so. 8969. (/> M'^Farlan.) — Do you think means and substance a fair mode ? — It would be much better if it could be put on heritable property, for it is rather an obnoxious mode of raising money, to say what a man's income is, without having particular knowledge of it. 8970. But as you say it falls heavier on rental, than on means and substance ; if it were all on rental, would it not be heavier ? — Yes. 8971. And where the assessment is on rental, may it not follow that the burden is borne by those least able to bear it ? — Yes. 8972. You stated that you had given notice to Port-Glasgow about a man and his children, who w«re about to acquire a settlement in this parish beforeWhitsunday next? — I addressed a letter to Dr Barr, stating that a person named Hamilton, chargeable on Port- Glasgow, required relief, and requesting that, as the individual had not been in our parish for three years, they would send down an eldei- to supply their wants. The family had been supplied by the soup-kitchen. 8973. Then was it because the individual had received assistance from the soup-kitchen^ that his residence had been interrupted, and that he was regarded as a pauper, and you were entitled to get quit of him ? — That was the principle. 8974. You stated that passes are granted by the magistrates ? are you aware that passes are authorized by the act 1579 ? — I don't recollect the terms of that act j'ust now. 8975. You have not distinctly stated whether you think it advisable to give a legal Examinationg. GUEENOCB. Mr John Black 2,5 April 1U4S. •502 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniiiiatiuns. (JBKENOCK. Mr John Black, •i.. April 1843. claim on the parish funds to ahle-bodied persons out of employment ; do you think it would be so or not ? — In a situation such as the town of Greenock has been in this last year, I am decidedly of opinion that some provision ought to be made to prevent people disposing of their all. I know many cases where individuals have been obliged to pawn every article in their houses. 8970. Then your opinion is, that in times of distress they should have a legal claim to relief? — Yes. 8!t77. Do you think giving that legal claim might not lead to habits of improvidence in times of prosperity .'' — In all general rules there are exceptions, and in many cases that might occur ; but generally the good sense of the working classes would have the effect of making them not trust to that alone. 8978. Might it not lessen their exertions to find work in other quarters .' — In many cases ; but I would fain hope it would not generally have such an effect. 8979. Would you propose to give relief, under any limit or check, to avoid the abuses to which I allude ? — Unquestionably ; such checks as the Government and the Court of Session should think fit for particular parishes. 8980. Do any checks occur to you which you would propose to adopt .' — About that I think, that after you establish the principle, the means of cheeking abuse might be left, in ' some measure, to the rate-payers, or to those in the parish who have knowledge of the character and circumstances of families. 8981. And you would give a discretionary power to certain parties ? — Yes. 8982. Then you would not give an absolute legal right to the unemployed, but only a discretionary power to certain parties of giving them relief ? — Yes. 8983. Is there any alteration you would suggest with regard to the administration of the poor funds ? — I would respectfully take the liberty of suggesting that a larger manage- ing body should be appointed than at present exists. For instance, a kirk- session may be composed of only six or eight individuals to a population of 8000 or 9000. The whole charge is devolved on the kirk-sessions, and my own humble opinion is that it is desb-able to associate with the kirk-session a portion of the rate-payers for the purpose of attending to the poor, and of looking after mendicity, so as to prevent pauperism from spreading. 89S4. [Mr 7W.'-/('to;i.)— How often does your kirk-session meet? — Once a month, and oftener when necessary. 8985. {l)r M'Farlan.) — Is it not in the power of the kirk-session to call in such indivi- duals to aid them ? — We have hitherto been in the habit of doing so. The kirk-session have the power. S9Si;. (J/r Twisleton.) — Do you think it desirable that a paid agent should be appointed where the population is so large ? — If that could be avoided it would be much better. 8987. You would rather have the number of gratuitous agents increased ? — Yes. 89(S8. Do you find some persons more liberal in the administration of the poor funds than others ? — I have reason to know that. There is not a uniform rate in all the parishes, but the relief depends entirely on the view which the elder, and the individual sent to ex- amine, may take of the case. 89enditure, under this, scale, was. for eaoh family about Js. lOd., and for each individual about 5d. per week. In addition to the supplies of provisions, the committee distributed, in thi^c.ourse of the winter and spring, upwards of 500 tons coals. An account is annexed hereto of the receipts and expenditure of the committee,, from tive establishment of the fund, in April last year, to this date, the 22d April 1843. In the course of the last six weeks there has been, as is shown in the foregoing statement, a considerable decrease in the number upon the relief list, brought about partly by an im- provement in the demand for labour here, and partly by the voluntary removal of families ta other localities in quest of employment. Although there is still a great deal of distress here, from want of demand for labour, the committee find it necessary, from the state of their funds, independent of other considera-. tions, to take steps for bringing their operations to a close. With this view, they have recently diminished the scale of relief, by withdrawing t^ie oatmeal, and intend next week ta withdraw the allowance of bread. The want of funds of itself renders this course necessary ;. besides, the committee are desirous to close their proceedings, if possible, early in the sumnier, in order to avoid giving the establishment a permanent character. GENERAL, ABSTRACT of Receipts, anch E.vpenditure, froin. the Commencement, m Aprii 1:842 till %M April 1843.. Mr W. Baiiif. 2C April 184:t. BlJCEIPTSv Amount of subscriptions and donations,, L.3669 16 Amount of volimtary assessment, .. 1066 9, Contributions from Central Committee, E.dinburgh,. Sales of road-metal, &c. disposed of, .. .. ^ Grants from the sessions to defray relief' distributed from the soup-kitchen to occasional poor, ^ » L47-36 939 369 5 18 8 10 6 543 11 L.e589 3 4 516 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaiijiiiations. Grkenock. Mr W. Baine. 20 April 1843. EXrENDlTUBE, Wages of labour, from April till September 1842, when the work system was abandoned, Cost and cartage of stones for road-metal, — cost and repair of implements of labour. Expended in allowances to families leaving the town. Expenditure for soup-kitchen, including the supplies issued from that establi:^hment, .. . ... ... Distribution of coals, ... ... ... ... .,. Contribution to Ladies Society for providing clothes, Miscellaneous charges, ... .,, .., ,., ,., Balance of fimds on hand, viz. : — In the bank, ... ... ... .., .,, In the treasurer's hands, ,., ,,, .,. L.2558 5 4 565 15 9 414 15 6 2506 14 6 239 3 11 35 110 7 1 L.6460 3 3 L.114 15 (Signed) Council CJianibers, Greenocl; 22d April 1843. L.129 1 L.6589 3 4 Walter Baine, .Tun. Provost, and Chainiian of the Committee. 9328. What circumstances entitled parties to relief ?— We admitted all apj)licants who liad supported themselves by labour here, previous to the distress, whether resident three years or not, provided they were unemployed, and in circumstances of distress. 9329. All who had been employed here, and who were at the time in circumstances of distress, however short the period of their employment had been ? — Yes, 9330. Did you employ any by piece work ? — At the commencement we did, in breaking stones by piece work ; but we found, after a short time, that it did not suit. Some of those who had been accustomed to that sort of work made Avages above what we thought desir- able, Avhile others made comparatively little. 9331. Did you find the persons who so applied of industrious habits, or the reverse ? — There was a mixture, as might be expected — some of good, others of indifferent character. 9332. Was the greater proportion of them persons who would have gained an industrial livelihood for themselves? — By far the larger proportion would have gauied an industrial livelihood for tliemselves. 9333. While a certain proportion of them woidd not lia^'c gained a livelihood for them- selves at any rate ? — There were some of tliat description, who could not have gained a com- fortable livelihood. 9334. Were any attempts made to get relief by parties who Avere not entitled to it ? — There were some attempts ; but I don't think that they were made to any great extent. 9335. Were the persons employed, for a considerable time resident in Greenock, or were they strangers ? — I think there were very few who had not been resident more than three years. There were some who had not ; but the larger proportion had been resident at least three years. ^ 9336. Did persons employed by you genei-ally conduct themselves well, and seem thank- ful for relief? — While the working system was in operation, there was a general complaint that tlie workmen did very little work : they were rather disposed to pass the time idly ; and, in point of fact, that was the case. 9337. And afterwards, when you adopted a morfc economical system, that of affording ])rovision8, they did not work at all ? — They did no work in exchange for relief, 9338. Did any of those who got i-clief at the soup-kitchen get work elsewliere ?^Some of them occasionally got work — a day's work at a time ; but in few instances did they get work sufficient to warrant their being thrown off the relief list. 9339. Are there many persons, inclined to be industrious in ordinaiy times, out of em- ployment in Greenock? — No. For a considerable time j)revious to the existing distress, there was a very good demand for labour in Greenock ; so that those disposed to take work for the most part might get it. 9340. Is the demand for labour in general pretty much on a par with the number of labourers ? — I think it was, previous to the existing distress. 9341. From yovir experience, both at the present time of distress and in fonuor years, do you think it would be advisable to give able-bodied men any legiil claim to relief out of tiharitable funds ? — I think it would be desirable that there should be some provision made for relief to able-bodied men in times of distress. 9342. Woidd you give them a positive right to relief, or subject the matter to the dis- cretion of certain persons to be appointed ? — That is a question I have not studied sufficiently to warrant my giving a decided opinion. 9343. Supposing you were to give them a legal right to relief, would you think it neces- sary to put certain claecks upon it, in case they should do as the j)eoplc whom you employed in breaking stones^ — merely put time off, without doing the work ? — I tliink it would be de- sirable that there should be some check. 9344. Had railways and other public works brought a gieater number of workmen here than previous to the distress ? — Yes. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 517 9345. Is that an excess of labour you would expect to come upon you In future years ? — No, unless from causes of a similar kind. 9346. Do you think that those here will, after a time, disperse over the country and find work ? — 1 think that process is going on to a moderate extent, and that labourers are griidually moving off to different localities. 9347." Did able-bodied men make any application to the kirk-session for relief before the committee was appointed ? — I am not aware if such application was made before the relief committee was appointed ; but applications of that Idnd were made subsequently to the aji- pointment of tlie committee. 9348. Let us understand the nature of the applications ? — There was application made by a number of the unemployed, to their several kirk-sessions, to be admitted on the pai"o- chial roll. The kirk-sessions referred it to a general meeting — an extraordinary meeting, called for the purpose, which came to the resolution that they (kirk sessions) could not, con- sistently with the existing law, admit such applicants on the roll. But at the same meeting it was resolved imanimously, that fresh efforts should be made to raise funds by voluntary con- tribution ; and it was thought well to tiy to whiit extent a voluntary assessment would succeed. Instead of allowing every one to put down his name for what he thought proper, as in the case of a subscription paper, it was agreed that the committee should endeavour to follow a course in some measure consistent with the regulations for a compulsory assessment. Parties were called on for quotiis : some paid in full, some in part, and others declined altogether. Sum assessed, nearly 3000/. ; sum collected, within 1100/. 9349. Did the Avorkmon take farther steps after that ? — They took steps by action in the Court of Session, but subsequently departed from that. 9350. Do you know whether they had taken opinion of counsel upon the subject ? — I believe they had, and it was decidedly unfavourable. 9351. Did the committee assist able-bodied women out of employment? — A few. There are widows and distressed females still on the list, but not many. 9352. They received relief from the soup-kitchen ? — Yes ; since the month of September we have distributed no relief at all except from the soup-kitchen. 9353. Can you state generally the proportion of able-bodied women receiving relief to the males ? — I could not state the number of women on the list, but I should say they were very few in number. 9354. {Mr Twisleton.) — Previous to the distress, was there not a stoppage of several ship-building establishments in Greenock ? — I don't think any of them had stopped previous to the distress, but employment in these establishnients was dinriinishing. This affected the demand for labour, and, after some time, five out of eight ship-building establishments were suspended altogether. 9355. Any iron foundry establishments ? — Three foundries. None of these stopped, altogether; but for the last eiglit or nine months they have been doing very little work. 9356. Can you state the number thrown out of employment by thq stoppage of work at these establishments ?— I ha\6 here a draft of a memoi'ial we transmitted to government last year in June, which, I think, embraces that. The memorial is dated June 27th, and it is therein stated : — " That from inquiries which the memorialists have made, they find that from thirteen establishments in this town, viz. three foundries, eight ship-building yards, two chain works, there have been discharged, since the month of June last year, 1920 out of 3287 workmen, who were then employed in these wovks, being very nearly three-fifths /• M'Farlau.)i — That appears from the large amount of voluntary subscriptions ? — It appears from the large amount of voluntary subscriptions. 9360. {Mr Twisleton.y — Was not some inquiry made with regard to the condition of the operatives in the town, even independently of those on the relief list ? — In the outset of the proceedings by the committee, the houses of the applicants were visited by the members of committee ; and, during the progress of the proceedings. Inquiries were made from time to time into the circumstances of those on the list. The only inquiry I am aware of that was made into the circumstances of the unemployed, exclusive of, or unconnected with, those on the relief list, Avas in the shape of a census taken in the end of November last, under direc- tion of the relief committee, of the total number of unemployed at that date, distinguishing their various trades. I have an abstract of that census, 9361. It appears from this statement, that in November last there were 1482 unem- ployed men, with 1119 wives, what precautions were taken to see that this account was correct ? — The town was divided into districts, and two visiters appointed for each district j and we selected men whom we thought trustworthy, and who we knew would perform the duty with care, and correctly. Examinations. Greenock. Mr W. liainp. 26 April 1 84:5. 518 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOHE THE Kxannnfttions. Urkenock. Mi- W. Baine. ■iC. A|>rU 184X 9362. Was this excluBive of the parties on the relief list ? — No. That includes the total number of unemployed, whetlier on the relief list or not, [The witness then put in the following abstract census of the unemployed in Greenock, 5th December IH2 ;] — ABSTRACT CENSUS of Unemployed Operatives in Greenock, 5th December 1842. OCCDPATIONS. Bakers, Block-makers, . . . Boat-builders, . . . Boiler-makers, . . . Bottle-maker, ... Brass-founders, , . . Brass-finishers, ... Cabinet-makers, Carpenters, Carters, Clerks, ... Chain-makers, . . . Coopers, Cork-cutter, Crystal-cutter, ... Engineers, Fishermen, Flcshers, Forgemen, Gardeners, Grinder, Hammermen, ... Hosier, ... Hatters,,.. Iron-turner, Joiners, ... Labourers, Masons, ... Millwrights, Moulders, Nailers, ... Painters, Pilot, Plumbers, Paper-hanger, ... Potter, ... Plasterers, , . . Printers, Rafters,.,,. Renovator of clothes, Riggers, Rope-makers, .... Sail-makers, .,. Sawyers, .. , . Seamen, ... Shoe-makefs, Skinners, ,,. Slatera, ... SmitliB, ... Tailors, ... Tobacco-spinner, Upholsterers, Watchman, Weaver,... Wood-turners, .,, Men. Wives, ,,, Cluldren under 12, above 12, Total, 17 4 10 38 1 6 5 9 210 8 3 7 41 1 1 47 3 6 5 ,2 1 9 1 3 1 84 649 14 2 14 4 13 1 2 1 1 5 3 3 1 16 8 14 58 16 9 2 11 79 26 1 2 1 1 2 Dependents. AVives. 1482 1119 2194 844 5639 12 4 5 30 1 5 4 4 167 4 2 6 25 1 1 :30 3 5 5 2 1 6 1 3 1 60 485 14 1 .8 2 8 1 2 1 1 5 1 3 1 15 4 9 52 14 5 2 11 61 21 Children. Under 12. 1119 23 9 6 48 "io 10 8 309 3 .6 10 34 "*2 ,58 5 6 15 3 3 10 ""4 3 95 1019 29 1 16 3 16 2 2 "2 12 13 11 23 10 16 117 14 12 '15 141 41 2 3 Above 12. 2194 3 4 7 19 "4 I 3 116 9 27 2 ■32 11 3 2 7 6 7 "33 .398 11 .6 3 4 1 2 "'4 'is 3 36 8 9 "8 24 9 1 2 "2 844 POOR LAW INQUIRY COAtMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 519 9363. Will you have the goodnegg to explain your machinery for the Inspection of the Examinations, cases on the relief list, — what agents have the relief committee appointed? — At first we Greenocs. required from applicants a certificate either from the elder of the district, or from known Mr W Baine respectable individuals — a certificate of their being out of employment, and being proper 2c'^Ai.ril 1^843'. objects. And, subsequently, we trusted to our sub-treasurer, Mr Hutchinson, who took the superintendence of the soup-kitchen, and to his assistant, for ascertaining whether any of those on the list were getting employment or not. 9364. What is the total number of agents, whether paid or unpaid, employed ? — Our staff is very limited in number. Mr Hutchinson is the sub-treasurer. He has sometimes one, sometimes two clerks assisting at the soup-kitchen. They had workmen employed in making distribution of the supplies, who were all on pay. With regard to the unpaid, the committee consisted nominally of a pretty large number, but it gradually dwindled away till there were only three or four who gave regular attendance. 9365. Did they consider it their duty to visit the cases ?— They did not. 9366. I speak with regard to those who thought it their duty to visit the cases ? — We had no unpaid agents who were called on to visit the cases particularly. 9367. Did jyou consider that superseded by the notoriety of the distress prevailing in the town ? — We certainly did ; but when we came to apply for aid from the sessions, we handed in a list of those in their respective parishes upon the iund, find requested that they would make the necessary inquiry into the cases, and satisfy themselves whether or not the parties were proper objects ; and the members of the sessions, — at least in some of the ses- sions, — most of them indeed, — did make such inquiry, This was within the last two months. They visited the houses and satisfied themselves. 9368. Up to that time, the inspection was by the paid agents you mentioned ? — Yes j and occasionally by the unpaid, bqt there was no regular inspection. 9369. According to your statement, if there had l^een employment in the town it might have been possible for them to be employed, and to be on your fiind at the same time ? — Certainly it might. 9370. With regard to the mode of requiring work, it is more expensive than the other ; but which if you had had fiinds, would have been moat desirable ? — At the commencement, I was favourable to the system of giving work 3 but seeing it is so much more expensive, and so difficult to get anything hke fair work out of the men, I rather incline to think, that in cases of such unusual distress, the system of gratuitous relief to a moderate extent would be preferable. 9371. With regard to the work in breaking stones, was that by piece-work? — For some time it was by piece-work, subsec[uently at day's wages. 9372. If it were by piece-work woxdd that secure fair work ? — In that description of work it certainly would. The people we employed were only partly employed in that way. Others were engaged in repairing roads, and in such work as we could not pay otherwise than by day's wages. 9373. Did you not experience great practical difficulty in dealing with the cases of single men and married men with large famiUes, in proceding on the system of piece-work ? —That might be a difficulty. Some men might ma.ke greater wages than it was desirable they should, by way of relief. 9374. With regard to the rations you gave, Is. lOd, was the amount at least of the cost per family per week ? — That was the average, taking the total number of families, 9375. Do you think a family covdd subsist upon thai), or had they other moans ?t^I I think they could scarcely subsist on what they got. They must hay? received from other sources, 9376. From the employed operatives? — From the employed operatives, and from public begging, which has prevailed much since. 9377. What was the shape of that public begging, — did they go about in large num-. bers? — Not in large numbers ; but they went in parties not exceeding threc'or four. 9378. To the houses of shopkeepers or gentry ? — They went to the houses of gentry, of shopkeepers, and of all classes ; and they are to be found still in all the comers of the sti'cets, soliciting aid from parties passing, 9379. Supposing you had had ftmds, would you have thought it better to allow public begging or to give such an allowance as would leave no excuse for public begging ? — If we had had f\mds sufficient to permit our giving relief, such as to allow no excuse for public begging, I should have thought that the preferable mode. 9380. Had you much difficulty in obtaining subscriptions? — We hfid, It has been a continued struggle from a period soon after the oommencement of our operations tiU now. But upon the whole, the subscriptions were liberal, considering the embarrassedstateof the town, 9381. Did you receive any money from the manufacturer's relief committee in London ? — ^Not directly. We applied both to the central committee in Edinburgh, and also to the committee in London ; but what we got was from the Edinburgh committee, which, I imderstand, was in communication with the onfe in Londoji. 9382. And you received only 939i. from the committee? that was the only sum not raised in Greenock, and the remainder was contributed on the spot ? — It includes contri- butions from parties not resident in the town. The greater number of these contributors were in some measiu-e connected with Greenock ; others were entire strangers, who had heard of the distress. 9383. Had you some liberal contributions from them? — The total amount from strangers was very small — not more than 2001. or 300i. 3384. What was the object of your memorial to government? — The object wjis to 520 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ETamiiiations. Grkknock. Mr W. Baiiip. 2(i April 1843. make known the distressed state of the town, from a want of demand for labour, and to pray that the government woukl take such measures as might be deemed proper for our relief. 9385. You state that, previous to September, from 400 to 500 per week were at work for the committee ? — Yes, constantly. During the greater part of the summer we had from 400 •to 500. 9386. Hud you any account of dependents then ? — Yes, they were very much in the same proportion. We circulated printed reports occasionally of our proceedings ; and we had at all times an account of the number of dependents, as well as the heads of families, on the list. 9387. Was there imwillingness on the part of the operatives to come on the relief funds? — ^In many cases there was very great unwillingness ; and very great distress Avas suflPered by parties previous to coming on the funds. 9388. AV^as there severe destitution before the parties came on the funds at all? — The pressure came to be felt early in spring — about the month of February, and there was no liind till the month of April. A good deal of distress A\as felt in the interval. 9389. Do you know whether their goods were pawned to a very great amount by the operatives ? — I can only state from hearsay ; but I am led to believe that the pawning of clothing and furniture was carried on to a very great extent. Many families, in fact, pawned or sold all they could di-^pose of previous to coming on the fund for relief; and others after- wards, because the relief they were getting from us certainly was not adequate to their support. 9390. Previous to the stoppage of the works, there was considerable employment in Greenock ? — Yes. 9391. And many of the operatives were in the receipt of good wages? — Yes; the rate of wages which ship-carpenters had M-as 4s. a day, when well employed. The founders' wages I cannot so well state, but the sujicrior class in that department had high wages. 9392. Had their work been constant for a great length of time ? — It had, in this depart- ment, been constant for some years. There was a great demand for several years previous to the pressure. 9393. Did you know instances of parties in employment, during the period when woi'k abounded, who, from saving, managed to subsist during the peiiod of distress, and did not come on the relief fund at all ? — I think, from the statements which some of the applicants made, on asking u-s for relief from the fund a considerable time after it had betn established, tliat they had saved some money previous to being tlirown out of employment, and did not come upon the ftmd till their savings in that way were exhausted. 9394. Judging from your experience during previous yeai's, do you think the distress on this occasion was of unprecedented duration — that sucli a long stagnation could not have been calculated upon ? — I certainly think it unprecedented, both in degree and duration. I don't recollect such distress, and so long continued. 9395. Do you think that parties, with ordinarily provident habits, even those of excel- lent character, would have been compelled to come on the funds ? — I rather think so. I tliink the ordinary workmen had not had an opportunity, without an extraordinary degree of economy, to lay aside sufficient support for tlu-inselves during the late pressure. 939(5. (IJr 3PFarla>u)-—Di([ you find an unwillingness to apply for relief to the com- mittee, particvdarly among mechanics ? — I rather think there was ; I could not state verj' precisely, but I rather think the feeling was moixj among the mechanics than among the common labourers. 9397. Were they not long of applying for relief? — Yes, they were. The greater pro- portion M'ho applied in the first instance were labourers. 9398. And of these, woidd not a considerable proportion be out of employment during part of the winter months ? — I don't know whether they would be totally out of employment. During the winter many laboiu"ers do not get regular employment. 9399. Were they connected with the shipping of the town? — A great proj)ortion of those who came on the fund had been accustomed to work about the harbour. There was a great falling off in the work there. Some had been accustomed to work in the rafting of timber : there was a great falling off in the timber trade. Others, again, were labourei-s who had been employed in the ship-building yards and in the foundries ; for there are work men in these who come under the class of labourers, as well as those who go under the de- nomination of meclianics. 9400. I think you stated that if such an allowance could be given as would take away the excuse from public begging, you would have preferred that allowance being given, rather than have permitted begging ? — I mean, tliat if the funds of the relief committee had admit- ted of their giving to the unemployed such an allowance as would have prevented begging, I should have preferred giving such allowance. 9401. I'hen you did not refer to providing for them by an assessment, and giving relief from that source ?— No. 9402. Do you think providing for them by an assessment, and giving them a claim to relief, would increase their improvident habits ? — I am very doubtfiil whether giving able- bodied labourers a claim to relief in eases of distress, woultl increase theu- improvident habits : I am rather inclined to think it would not — it is a matter of opinion. 9403. AVoidd it not prevent them from going to other places to seek work ? — I doubt that. I think workmen generaUy would prefer going to other places to look for work, to taking relief from a j)ublic fund. 9404. Would it not increase the superabundant population, admitted to exist at this moment, and prevent emigration ? — It might have that effect ; but I don't think it clearly established that such efl'ect would be produced — I think it a matter of doubt. POOR LAW INQUIRY COABIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 521 9405. (A/?- Twisleton.) — Wliat class of parties, in your opinion, are most lilcely to marry early, — those who, havings no means, may be desperate and reckless, or parties who have a hijrher standard of living ? — I think those who have no means are most likely to marry early. 9400. And withholding relief from those who are destitute, has not that a tendency to stimulate th.c population ? — I mtlier think it has. 9407. (Mr Jiubertson.) — Have you had occasion to observe whether that spirit of inde- pendence you spoke of at the beginning, continued to manifest itself throughout the whole period of distress, or did the si)irit of the people sink under the distress ? — I cannot, from my own observation, say whether there has been a falling off in the spirit of independence since the establishment of the fund, and the parties came on the relief list. 9408. Do you know whether the spirit of independence manifested itself by exertions on the part of the workmen and labourers to obtain employment elsewhere, or did they content themselves with what Avas done for them here ? — No. We found very great exertions made by parties on the relief list to be employed elsewhere ; and we had many instances of parties coming and getting a little pecuniary assistance to enable them to go elsewhere. The same parties have come back after an absence of weeks, and after travelling over a great portion of the countrj', without succeeding in obtaining work, and quite worn out with their exer- tions. 9409. And if facilities had existed for emigration, do you think a large proportion would have a\ailed themselves of opportunities to obtain employment in that way ? — I think if the means had existed, a very considerable number woidd rather have resorted to emigration than have staid at home. 9410. (Mr Iwisleton.) — Do you know whether, as a fact, many did emigrate ? — Not man)', for few had the means of emigration. 9411. Was not an offer made in the summer of opportunities of emigration to New Zealand ? — I am not aware that an offer was made. 9412. In the list of parties on the relief fund, the number of dependents is given — how did you an-ive at that number — was it by actual enumeration ? — It was partly from the statements of the applicants, and partly from the certificates they handed in when m.ildng ap])lication. 9413. Was there a list enumerating each individual and family, or were the numbers taken in the lump ? — Given in the lump — distinguishing those under and above twelve. 9414. And in the list do you distinguish these ? — Yes. 9415. And those above twelve, have you reason to believe that their number estimated might be the actual nmnber ? — Yes. Those above twelve included grown-uj) persons ; but we always made inquiry M'hether those parties were getting work, or contributing in any way to the support of their famil}'. If we found them getting work, and able to contribute to the support of their family, we made the allowance so much less in proportion. 941 G. Were these monthly numbers all made up in the same way, by going over the lists, and finding the dependents in each of the families, or by a general estimate formed afterwards ? — They are made up from the accounts kept by the sub-trcasm'er, Mr Hutchinson, 9417. {Mr Robertson.) — If facilities for emigration could be given, at an expense not greater than that which might be incurred in affording temporary relief during a period of distress, such as has now existed, whether would you give relief by affording facilities for emigration, or by a temporary assessment ? — If adequate relief could be given by emigration, and if parties were wilhng to emigrate, I should consider that the most desirable mode of relief. 9418. (Mr Campbell.) — When the relief committee paid by day's wages, did they give more to the married than to the single men ? — There was no distinction, except in the case of boys, to whom th.ey gave less than Is. a day — sometimes 6d. 9419. You stated that early marriages took place as frequently with persons who had no means, as with people in comfort — would you attribute that to the want of means, or to the improvident character of the person who is without means ? — I merely stated it as a matter of opinion, that early marriages were not less frequent among those without means, than p.n)ong those witli means, 9420. But may not the want of means and early marriages be attributed to the same cause — the improvidence of parties ? — Why, the want of means may in many cases certainly arise from the improvidence of parties ; but in the great majority of cases, I should suppose it arises from necessity. The early marriage of parties without means may be considered as an instance of improvidence. 9421. (Mr Twisleton.) — The point is, whether those influences act and react, and whether a person, from his low standard of living, may not become reckless and marry early, while, if he were prevented from sinking so low, he would have postponed marriage till a period when he had the reasonable prospect of maintaining a family ? — Yes. I should think, as a matter of opinion, that the want of means and excessive poverty are very apt to produce that reckless feeling which induces early man-iages. 9422. What would be tlie best security against improvident man-iages, — what would strike at the root of the evil so as to prevent improvidence ? — I think some measures for educating the people, combined, perhaps, with a more adequate provision for the poor, and combined with anv other legislative measures that can be adopted for giving employment and facili- tating the means of obtaining a subsistence. 9423. Do you think proper education would be the main measure for preventing im- providence ? — No. I think any system of education Avould be ineffectual, to a great degree, unless combined with some legislative measures for facilitating the means of obtaining a subsistence, and giving additional employment to the people. 3 X Examinations. Greenock. Mr W. liaine. 2t> April la4a. 522 IVIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniinutiona. Gbkk.nock. Mr W. Haine. 3U April 1843. 9424. (Mr Campbell.) — Do yoii think early marriages are likely to be occasioned among those who are deprived of means by temporary causes ? — It may depend on the length of time that the depression or the poverty arising from these temporary causes may continue. If a pressure arises that is of very short duration, I don't see that it can affect the character or habits of those suffering under it materially ; if it is of long duration, I should think it would deterionite their character and habits. 9425. Is thei"e any alteration you would suggest on the present poor laws of Scotland ? — I have not studied the question to such an extent as to warrant me in giving a very decided opinion with regiird to that question ; but I should say generally, that the provision made for the poor, under the existing poor law of Scotland, as now administered, is not adequate. I think, in the first place, the allowance made to those admitted on the roll is far too low ; and, in the second place, there is greater difficulty in getting on the roll than shoidd be. Many necessitous objects who ought to have a provision, are excluded from any such provision. 9426. Would you propose any alteration in the period for acquiring a settlement ? — That is a point on which 1 don't like to give a very decided opinion ; but I am inclined to think, with reference to the existing provision for the poor, that the period of settlement is too short, and if a more liberal provision were made for the poor, the time would require to be lengthened. 9427. {Mr Twisleton.) — Wliat has been the state of health in the town during the period of distress ? — There has been less disease this last winter than usually, notwithstanding the distress. 9428. Do you know whether crimes have increased? — There have been fewer police offences also. Kev. Dr Scott. TTie Right Rev. Dr Scott, Roman Catholic Bishop, Examined : — 9429. (Lord Melville.) — How long have you been in Greenock ?■ in Greenock, but for nearly thirty-eight years I have been -I have not been long m the western towns of Scotland. 9430. You are well acquainted with the situation of the lower classes ? — I have had nearly thirty-eight years' exj)erience among them. 9431. That includes pei^sons receiving parochial relief? — It does. 9432. Have you formed any opinion with regard to the adequacy of the relief afforded to the paupers in this town ? — I have formed an opinion, both in Glasgow and in this town, that the relief is not always impartially distributed, and that with reference both to catholic and protestant, — it is very inadequate to their wants. 9433. That applies to both ? — It is nearly fourteen years since I became bishop, and I have had occasion to know that such was the fact. 9434. Did you ])erceive instances of partiality ? — Yes, I have known instances in which we have been obliged to apply to law, in order to get poor catholics put on the poor roll. There was one instance, in which it was decided in the local court in Glasgow that a man and his wife were entitled to relief. They had been nearly twenty years resident in Glasgow. It was earned to the Court of Session by the members of the kirk-session, and decided in favour of the poor man and liis wife, but at a cost of SOL, though he was put upon the ])oor roll, most of which I had to pay to try the case. 9435. Most of the catholics here are from Ireland ? — In that case both were fi'om Ire- land ; but there is a very large portion of catholics who are called Irish, but are born in Scotland. There are many I have baptized myself who are now rearing families. 943(5. (Dr M'Farlan.) — Descendants of Iiish? — Descendants of Irish — they caU them- selves Irish. 9437. (Lord Melville.) — Do many of them receive occasional relief who are not on the poor roll ? — I believe that happens. I have known occasional relief given by charitable gentlemen of the protestant persuasion, who have contributed to them out or theii- own pockets. 9438. Do they come here in general from Ireland at an early period of life, or late in life ? — Some at an early period, some in the middle of life ; part of the children are bom in Ireland, others are bom after the parents come to this country. Now they are so amalga- mated, that it is scarcely possible to know. I came here in 1835, and many of those Irishmen are married to Scotchwomen, and many Scotchmen are married to women bom in Ireland ; but I should say that nearly one-half the population called Irish catholics on this west coast just now were bom Scotch. 9439. Have you seen instances of them coming late in life ? — Yes, coming in extreme poverty. 9440. Was their object to get such relief as they could not get in Ireland ?— I could scarcely say. Tiiere is so little common sense among them, that it is scarcely possible to give a reason. When I ask them whether any of the clergymen gave them relief at home, they said they did not get relief fi'om them. 9441. You have funds at your disposal for distribution ? — Sometimes : they are very national in their ideas and sentiments — rather too mu(!h so in some cases. 9442. Does that apply to the descendants of the Irish born here ? —It does in a great measure, POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 523 9443. Is their education attended to ? — So far as we can get funds provided ; but the cost is a great deal to the catholic congregations. We have got three schools in this con- gregation ; and those v?ho are substantial and able to send their children for a better educa- tion than in those primary schools, generally send them to private protestant teachers, as we have no catholic teachers who are able to maintain themselves on teaching. In the primary schools the education consists of rqading, writing, and arithmetic. 9444. But you mean with regard to the regidar paupers on the poor roll ? — I cannot say. We have ai)pHed, both here and in Glasgow, for children left orphans and destitute : they would consent when there was proof, but on condition of their being educated in the protestant religion, to which we would not consent ; and we have about 60 or 70 of that description in Greenock, and well on to 200 in (Glasgow. The expense of education in Glasgow was between 300Z. and 400^. ; here it is about 100?. for the education of orphans. 9445. At the catholic schools ? — No, to feed them, to clothe them, to educate them ; but I bee to say here that I have always found the clergymen of the Protestant Established Church ready to do what they could ; and that the partiality shown with regard to those people occurred where the elders were not men of liberal education. From my experience of towns, I should say it would be impossible for any Established clergymen to know the real state of the ease himself, and do his duty in other respects. 9446. Am I to understand that you consider the children of the poor sufficiently at- tended to with reference to education ? — Far from it : we have no ftmds. But the parents would rather want education than send their children to be educated in a place where their religion miglit be tampered with. I should also wish to say, from my experience of the last fourteen years, there is not in country places the same difficulty and partiality as in towns ; because in country parishes they are all known. It is very easy for the protestant minister, or the catholic clergyman, equally to know them ; but in a town it is very difficult to know the circumstances, and to know whether they are imposing or not. This remark applies to the manufacturing towns especially. 9447. Have you found much difficulty in assisting the poor to establish their claims under the law of settlement ? — Yes, I have known several cases in which it was necessary to apply to law, and the law is very expensive to these poor people. 9448. Have you found, in point of fact, any difficulty in making out their actual resi- dence during the legal period ? — We seldom find difficulty in that. We make inquiiy at the neighbours ; we never take their own word. 9449. Have you ever considered the question, whether the period for settlement Is too short, or whether it is long enough ? — Why, if the manufacturing towns were obliged to support, by assessment, all the poor who have a settlement according to the rate of three years, I don't think the people In the towns woidd be fairly dealt with. These towns can- not keep up their population without a great increase from the country ; and the country parishes are liable to pay little compared with the towns. Taking Argyleshire and Inver- ness-shire, with which I have now been acquainted for fourteen years, there is little assess- ment required there — the collections are enough, because the poor people make their way to the towns ; and I daresay Dr M'Farlan Is able to say that there are a great many people from the Highlands in Greenock. And if there were a legal assessment, I should think it unfair if it were levied on such places as Greenock alone, without the addition of a ^eat many country parishes, ft-om which the people come to seek employment at Paisley, Glas- gow, and Greenock. 9450. Would you think it advisable to extend the period beyond three years ? — I never formed an opinion on that, but much longer it should not be. Three years' residence in good health and employment is, in some cases, sufficient. If old people come past work, the case is diffijrent ; but a young man coming in the prime of life, from twenty to thirty, with perhaps a family,— if that man fell into fever, and died, I shovdd consider that a legal claim. But there could hardly be a shorter term, taking old and young, coming from the Highlands, or from the country, for many come from Ayrshire and Renfrewshire into the towns, 9451. (^Dr M'Farlaii). — When you refer to the poor funds being partially administered in Greenock, can you mention instances in which applications, as you conceived, have been unjustly refiised ? — From my situation as bishop, I have not personally seen people ; but there was something mentioned in the newspapers about some woman who applied, when Mr Smith the clergyman was here (and to the clergymen I trust), she was afterwards put on the roll. It was about four or five years ago. 9452. The correspondence was betwixt the priest and Mr Menzles ? — No, but with one of the elders. 9453. Was it a case in which it was doubtfid whether the party had made a good legal settlement ? — It was a case in which the party had made a good legal settlement. 9454. With regard to the case from Glasgow, what was the point in dispute ? They were refused, because they were bom in Ireland, and were catholics. 9455. Was that so stated ? — It was so stated in the regular minutes. The sheriff de- cided right, and the Court of Session also decided that they were as much entitled as natives of this country, and that they were to be put on. 9456. Were there no other grounds stated? — No other grounds. 9457. {Mr Twisleton.) — Can you give the name of the case? — It was one Luke Higgins and wife, and occurred about twenty years ago. 9458. That is twenty years ago? — Do you know any Instances of partiality since ?— I have known frequently of cases refiised by the elders from the clergymen here and in Glas- gow. I specify the case of Luke Higgins, because I a had good deal of money to pay for it. Examinations. Gruknijok. Rev. Dr Scott. 2C April 1843. 524 MINUTES OF E\aDEXCE TiUvEN BEFORE TIIE GxUniinations. (iRKENOCK, Rer. Dr Scott. 26 April 1843. 9459. Do you know any case of a Scotcli catholic who has been refused relief? — There have been such ; but that is the only case I know that was carried to the Court of Session. 9460. With rofrard to the Scotch catholics, can you mention a specific case? — I cannot; but, from the number of reports fi-om clergymen to myself, I have no doubt there are. I refer to the case of Higgins, because I M'as concerned in it. 9461. lie was refused on the ground of being an Irishman, and a catholic? — He was refused on the ground of being an Irishman and a catholic. 9462. You say you know cases in which Scotch catholics have been refused? — I feel convinced that they have, but could not specify any cases from memory. 9463. Do you think these cases are as many with reference to the Scotch catholic popu- lation, as in the case of the Irish catholic po])ulation ? — Yes, because the Scottish catholics who came in the prime of life, are a small body compared to those who came from Ireland. 9464. So these cases would be cases of catholic Irish and catholic Iligldanders ? — Cases of catholic Irish, and of catholic Highlanders. 94G5. Is there not a feeling, whether well-founded or not, the inhabitants of towns, that they are unfairly burdened with poor from tcland and the Highlands ? — Thoy never give assistance to the poor, except such as have a legal claim. 946(). Even as to those who have a legal claim, by three years' residence, ia it not the feeling in the towns that they are unfairly burdened by Irish and Highlanders ? — I could not answer that question, but it may be so for anything I know, but they seem always glad to receive them when capable of working. 9467. Supposing such a feeling, would not that account for the improper refusal of relief in the cases you mention, without religious feelings at all ? — -I don't know ; but it was reli- gious feeling in the case of Luke Higgins ; and it is religious feeling that operates when people are told to go to their own clergyman, and " we have nothing to do with you." These are the answci"s generally given. 9468. {Dr M'^Farlan.) — Are you av.are that in the case of Higgins the question was — Whether an inferior civil court had a right to review the proceedings of ku-k-sessious ? — It is so long ago that I could not say what were the grounds ; but I know the principal point was his being an Irishman and a catholic. Speaking from memory of what oceiuTcd twenty years ago, I could not be expected to recollect every particiJar circumstance. 9409. But you could not mention any other case from your own personal experience ? — Why, there was a case here the other day. That cases have been frequent, I am confident ; but I trust to the clergymen. In the case of widow Thompson, her schedule was signed by two respectable protestant men, who have known her for the last fifteen or sixteen years. , She has been a residenter in Greenock for upwards of forty years, which she stated to the committee, but all would not do. Her husband was for six years in Greenock — he died in (jreenock. 9470. In ^vhat parish ? — In the middle parish. I do not know what the committee thought. It was signed by two men and an elder — there is a very great mmiber of poor people exposed to die, and one clergyman, either yesterday or the day before, found a poor woman — a Scotch woman, lying ia a fever, with a child at her breast — without any bed-clothes whatever- nothing but the clothes on her person, with her back to the wall, and without so much as shavings to lie upon. He was a surgeon before ho was a clergyman, and gave her a line to tl>e infirmary, which is conducted upon most liberal jn-iuciples — that woman nuist have died, had not he seen her. 9471. Had she -applied for relief?— No. 9472. Was she a vagrant? — I should sup})ose so. 9473. Do you mention that as a case which reflects on the administration of the poor law ? — I don't say so. These are the cases which should be a burden on towns. A woman cannot be allowed to die. AJl he understood from her was, tliat she came from Kothsay — she must either be supported or die, for she cannot be sent on to her parish. Towns are apt to be burdenetl, as wcU with all the poor in them, as with those who pass through. It is not fair to those towns, that the burden should be cast on them, except you were bringing in the country parishes along with them. And I believe Dr M'Farlan must know as well as I, that thoy are obliged to receive many people of that kind, who have no claim, and who are not in a state to be sent home to their OAvn parishes without assistance. 9474. Have you anything to suggest on the subject of the inquiry ? — I have nothing — but if there is any change in the laws, I think the towns ought not to be put in without the country along with them ; for otherwise, very great injustice would be dope to the towns. llr J. Hercus. ^^ John TIerais, Examined : — 947'). (Lord Melville.) — I believe you take charge of the poor in one of the independent congregations in this town ? — As a deacon of tlie church I do. 9476. Are there others employed in that as well as yourself? — The other deacons in the church. But I happen to know as much as any, from the circumstance of being trea- surer. 9477. What is the number of i)oor?— It varies; we have at present as many as we have ever had. 947H. How many are there both in families and individuals ? — About eight families are receiving constant support, some more, some less. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 525 9479. Have you iiny that receive occasional relief? — Yes. Examinations. 9480. Several of those must be persons whom you are obliged constantly to relieve ? — UnKKNocii. X e** '~"^"~^" o'joi TiTi • II 1 o Ar Mr J. Ilerrcis. V)49l. Who arc impotent, unable to work i — les. 26 April 1843. 9482. I presume the fund is 8Uj)plicd from voluntary collections ? — It is entirely so. We ha%e a regular collection every Lord's day, called the Fellowship Fund, for that purpose. 9483. They seldom exceed the present number? — No. The present is as high as I re- member. 9484. Do none of the persons assisted by yoiu- congregation apply for parochial relief? — I am not aware of any. If there be one, it is unknown to myself and the other deacons. 9485. You don't intend that they should ajiply ? — Not so far as our means go, and we would rather make extra sacrifices than have it so. There is a case which will illustrate how \;g think on the point. — There is a family consisting of a mother and daughter. The mother has been bed-rid for years. The mother is of the Established church ; the daughter is an Independent. Tlic mother, we consider, has a claim on the parochial poor funds. It is only lately that the daughter ceased to receive relief from us. One reason was, that we had cnougli to do with other cases. The mother was dependent on the daughter, and the daughter's means of sup})ort failing, aliment was given. Tliis has been discontinued, the family receiving assistance from friends. 9486. Have you meetings to revise the list? — Once a month the deacons meet to ar- range these matters, and they do so twice a year, also about the rent time. A great part of the money goes to pay rent. 9487. Are your allowances of the same amount with those given to the parochial poor? — I don't know the parochial scale. I can tell what we are in the habit of doing to some families. 9488. A widow with four children unable to work ? — We have such cases as that, and the widow and children receive 2s. 6d. a week regularly, besides 1/. or 25s. in the half year for their rent. That is 2/. or 2/. 10s. in the year for rent, besides the weekly allowance. 9489. Is she able to do anything for herself? — She is able, but cannot get work. 9490. Then has she no means of subsistence other than those received from you? — Latterly she has been keeping lodgers ; but that is a very uncertain mode of earning a live- lihood. 9491. In any relief you administer, you take into consideration their means of subsist- ence from other sources ? — We regulate the allowance entirely by the circumstances of the case, and, so far as oin- means will admit, endeavour to meet it. 9492. Do you in general find the amount of relief you give sufficient to maintain them, with the other sources of income ? — I do believe that many of them have quite enough to do. They struggle on, and if they did not economize as much as lay in their power, they would not get through. 9493. Are they in the habit of attending public worship in your church? — Regularly, when in health. 9494. And was their clothing sufficiently decent for that purpose ? — Yes. 9495. With regard to the children, is there any charge taken of their education ? — We have a school in connexion mth the church ; and one proviso made with the teacher was, that he should educate, gratis, twenty children in the year. "\Ve never found that we were able to send so many yet from the members of the church. 9496. To what extent is the education ? — Reading, writing, arithmetic, geography, and Ensrlish OTammar. 9497. And you have not yet found any difficulty in all the children under yom- charge having it ? — We do find difficulty in persuading them that it is their Interest to go there ; and some, whom we think proper objects, prefer going to other schools. It is not constraint — it is persuasion of the right kind. 9498. Many go to other schools? — Many do, whom we would tliink suitable to go there. 9499. Have you the means of aflxirciing medical relief such as the poor require ? — No ; but when any members of the church take ill, it is often the case that medical gentlemen are requested to wait on them. We never made a distinct application, except to some party whom an individual might chance to know. We have not systematically availed ourselves of the district surgeons. 9500. If they cease to attend your church, being able to do so, you probably would cease to consider them entitled to rehef ? — As a church, we shoidd do so. Our fund is for the poor members of the church. 9501. {Dr M^Farkin.) — Who are in full communion ? — Yes. 9502. Do you recollect about the amount of the whole fund distributed annually? — Last year very nearly 50/. ; besides one peculiar case, for which a separate contribution was made by the members of the church alone ; and that made a fair addition to such resources of about 15/. Not less than 60/. were given during last year. 9503. Does it consist with your knowledge that the practice piu:sued by you of relieving those in full communion, subsists among the other churches of the Independents in Scot- land ? — I am scarcely prepared to answer the question, — my impression is that it is so. 9504. Do you think the practice might be attempted by other churches besides your own ? — I should think so. 9505. You have had occasion to see a number of the poor and destitute of all persuasions in this town — what is the condition in which you generally found them ? — It is now some two or tliree years since I happened to be a member of the Old Man's Friend Society. 526 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinutions. Greenock. Mr J. Hercus. 26 April 1843. Then I came in contact with a good many, but since I have not had such opportunities of obi^crvation, but their state then was very bad. 9506. When did you regularly visit ? — About four or five years ago. 9507. To what cause did you ascribe the destitution among them ? — It varied. Many were very deserving cases ; we liked to find good cases to relieve, such as those of persons who had been in good circumstances before, but through various misfortunes had been re- duced to poverty — who had been almost in easy circumstances. The widows of those who had been masters in ships have been glad to avail themselves of occasional relief. 1)508. To what cause did you ascribe their destitution ? — We never turned our attention very much to that — merely saw what they wanted. 9509. Do you think that, at the time you mention, the destitution was to be referred to the want of employment ? — Sometimes so, but generally not. It was aged people that were relieved. The title was the " Old Man's Friend Society." 9510. Had the habit of children supporting their parents diminished or ceiised ? — That is a point which stnick me as requiring amendment. 9511. You found few of them supporting their parents ? — Some of the children were in other places, and others had no children, having died before their parents. 9512. Your experience relates almost exclusively to the aged persons you referred to? — Yes. 9513. {Mr TwisletoH,) — Have you had the charge of any unemployed in your church? — Several of them have been unemployed of late. 9514. Have you taken charge of them, or have they gone on the relief fund? — Several we have endeavoured to find work for, and we have given occasional assistance to a few. 9515. Have any gone on the relief fund? — I believe none. 9516. Could you state how many in your church are unemployed? — I am not prepared to do so. 9517. What are the numbers of the church, and the numbers of the congregation? — The nmnber of members is between 170 and 180, and the congregation between 300 and 400 on an average. 9518. Have you any suggestions ? — No. There is one thing we have found benefit from lately, with regard to our poor members. We found when children died, and the parents were poor, that they had no jtlace ^^•here they could be buried, — we thought they would avail themselves rather of a place provided by us than of the means afforded by the session. Two lairs have been purchased, and these are open to every member of the chm-ch. We have found, in working om* own principles, that some of the poor are adopting friendly societies ; they think for themselves, /■ M'^FarUw.) — In medical practice, have you observed whether typhus is more prevalent among the poorer or the other classes ? — Upon the whole, among the poorer. Some years it has prevailed among the better classes ; but generally the greater propor- tion of cases are among the poorer classes. 95G5. Are there always some typhus cases in Greenock ?— I should say so. For about ten days, two months ago — a remarkable thing in my experience — we had not a single case of fever in the hospital. 9566. Do you consider it epidemic ?— I do. But we have it alwaj's with us. Mr R. Steele. Mr Eolert Steele, Ship-builder, Greenock, Examined : — 9567. (Lord Melville.') — You carry on business as a ship-builder ? — I do. 95()8. And you have occasion to employ a good number of men ? — Yes. 9569. I understand 3'ou have a good deal of knowledge and information with regard to that class of persons? — I am a little acquainted with them. 9570. Is your information confined chiefly to that class, or does it extend to the poorer classes in towns ? — The working classes generally. 9571. It is not limited to persons engaged in ship-building? — No. 9572. Have they been in a destitute state during the last year ? — Very much during • last winter, and some of them previously. 9578. They are better employed now ? — Very little in our line of business. 9574. How are they maintained, — those who are not employed? — A number have been receiving relief from the unemployed funds. 9575. That is still going on ? — I believe .so. If you question me particularly about our own tradesmen, I don't believe many of them .are receiving relief. 9576. You find employment for them? — No. They have had -very little during winter. The people employed by me had no occasion to ask relief elsewhere. They had about what was sufficient. But there is an immense number of idle persons connected with the ship- building department, thrown adrift in consequence of the insolvency of some ship building establishments here. The work people employed by them have been in a great measure idle during the whole winter. 9577. Have you any knowledge of such of the poorer classes in the town as are obliged to apply for parochial relief? — Not a great deal furt4ier than finding that they are frequently in the habit of making api)lication to me as well as to others for relief directly. 'I'here is scarcely a day that I have not three, four, half a dozen, or eight applications per- sonally as well as written. 9578. And those are from pensons receiving parochial relief? — Several. 9579. Have you any knowledge how far the relief they obtain from the parish is adequate for their subsistence ? — I should think all they receive can go but a very short way. It is not possible that it can keep them in life. 9580. Then with regard to the people more immediately concerned in ship-building occupations, do you find them improvident or temperate ? — When their means are ample thev are very improvident. They are not all alike ; but many are very improvident. 9581. Men with families ? — Men with families. It might be proper for me to mention that I am aware these people afford relief to each other, by means of societies. They have, to my knowledge, one general society called the Union Society, constituted professedly for charitable purposes. Their rules are, that each person contributes for every day he is employed, one half-penny a day. From the funds so raised, persons meeting with accidents, and indigent, receive a certain sum ; and a widow receives a certain sum at the death of her husband. An old infirm man, unable to work, is kept at 4/. or 5/. per annum, till his death. There are other societies, — j)hilanthropic societies. Their rules are framed much on the same principle. Considerable relief is afforded in that way to the workmen among themselves. 9582. Are their children at all looked after, — have they the means of educating them ? — Many of them have their children very well looked after. Those who are improvident, thoughtless, and dissipated, neglect their children ; as they neglect themselves, it is not to be expected that they should attend to their children. 958i5. {Mr Twisleton.) — Do you know what is the condition of the friendly societies now — have any of them failed ? — None of them have failed. 9584. And some ship-carpenters have been supported by these during the period of distress .' — Nc. Some of them just received partial relief; but they supported themselves J POOR LAW INQUIRY COJkBIISSION FOR SCOTLAM). 529 by disposing of their clothes and furniture. Many of them were left in a total state of Examinationn. destitution. _ Ghef.nock. 9585. By selling and pawning ? — By selling and pawning. Mr u Steele 9586. Is it usual to give relief on account of want of employment? — I am not aware 2u April 1843. that it is. These are only for cases of sickness when people are unable to work. They do not give to any who are out of employment. 9587. Is there any provision for old age ? — Yes. 9588. A provision for widows ] — There is no permanent provision for widows. 9589. You state that the allowances are inadequate to maintain the paupers on the list ? — Perfectly inadequate. They get a very small sum per month. 9590. Do you think it desirable to raise those allowances ? — Very desirable. 9591. At present do the poor assist each other independently of the friendly societies? — The lower classes assist each other very much. 9592. Would an increased allowance prevent that? — It would make it less necessary, but the burden would fall less heavily on a certain portion of the community. In manufactur- ing places it is not laid on fairly. It falls heavily on a few individuals — those who are able and willing to give. 9593. Do you find the poor assist their relations very much ? — They do. 9594. Do you think increasing the allowances would tend to check family affection ? — I don't see that it would. 9595. Do the rich give much charity to the poor in this town .' — Some are very well- disposed, others not. 959G. Do you think giving a larger allowance would prevent the rich from assisting the poor ? — They would be less called on. 9597. Do you think that notwithstanding the larger allowances they would still give money ? — They would still be disposed to do so. But they would be less called on. People are continually annoyed by begging. 9598. Is there always much begging in Greenock ? — Yes. 9599. Even when there is not much commercial distress ?— Yes. 9600. Among parties in receipt of parochial relief? — Both the one and the other ; but more particularly destitute paupers. 9601. Which do you think has the most degrading effect on the character of poor people — to beg either publicly or by private solicitation from house to house, or to have a decent maintenance from the poor rates ? — I don't see that the difference is very great. There are some persons who might prefer receiving relief from the poor rates rather than be found begging from door to door. 9602. Which would have a greater tendency to lead to falsehood and lying ? — I should suppose public begging. 9603. And begging from house to house — I cannot discriminate betwixt the two. 9604. Then so far as lying went, begging would be most demoralizing ?— Most as- suredly. They are obliged to have recourse to falsehood to obtain their ends. 9605. If they were getting a larger allowance, would not a considerable proportion be apt to abuse it ? — They would require to get a great deal more before they could abuse it — perhaps four times as much from the poor rates. 9606. What would you give an old man past work, but not bed-ridden? — Such a person could live on 4s. a week. 9607. Not on less decently ? — Not unless he has some other assistance. I cannot see how he can live on much less than 4s. a week — for food, fuel, and a house over his head, &c. 9608. {Lord MeMlle.)—lnc\\xAm^ a family? — No. 9609. {Mr Iwinleton.) — Do you think if the allowance were increased it would be ne- cessary to take any additional precautions against abuse ? — It would be desirable if such could be taken. 9610. Could you suggest any such ? — I am not aware exactly of the system on which the different sessions act, I have thought they did not act sufficiently in a body. Frequently paupers are on the list without a proper understanding among the different sessions. I have frequently known people receiving aliment from more than one session perhaps under their own name, but more frequently under a different name. 9611. How many cases ? — -I could not condescend on the number, but I have known such. 9612. With regard to persons past work, could they not be more economically supported in a public establishment ? — No doubt ; if tliey are left to shift for themselves they would require more. 9613. But with regard to the ratepayers, may they not demand that the management should be more economical, consistently with the comfort of the parties? — No doubt. 9614. Do you not think it would be more economical in a public establishment such as a workhouse ? — No doubt. 9615. Do you think it desirable to hiive a workhouse in Greenock? — I am of opinion that the people require additional support. Whether that be the best means of supporting them I am not prepared to say. 9616. With regard to the means of raising the allowances, have you formed an estimate with regard to the additional expense on a scale such as you suggest? — I have not. 9617. Suppose the allowance increased as you propose, do you consider that the assess- ment would be doubled in Greenock ? — It would require a greater increase than what has been made now. 9618. Doubled or trebled ?— -I should suppose trebled. The poor get their support more from begging than from the assessment. o 1 530 ^[IXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniinaiions. 9619. Then you don't think that the burden of the assessment represents the burden Creenock. of the poor on Greenock ? — I do not. Mr K SuM'le 9()20. What would you think the best way of cheeking pauperism in Greenock? — I am 2G April la4;t. nt a loss to say what would be the best means of doing away with that. For some time past we have had a great want of employment for the people here. Great numbers of Irish come over here with their families. They have no calling or trade, and when work is scarce, they send their wives and children out to beg. That has been the case within the last two or three years, particularly the last. 9021. Do you think the means of religious and moral education sufficient? — No. I should suppose they are scarcely adequate to the wants of the people. 9()22. If an adequate provision Averc made, would that tend to check pauperism? — You would require to lift them first out of the degradation in which they are sunk physically before you could do much in the moral way, 9()23. {]))' M'Farlan.) — By what means ?. — Feeding and clothing. Perhaps both would be desirable. When people are in a state of starvation, it is of little use to talk of educat- ing them. 9024. {Mr Twitileloi}.^ — Would you have great faith in raising the allowances as a means of elevating their character, without education I — Certainly not. They ought to go on together. 9625. You state that very few of your men have gone on the relief fund, to what do you attribute that ? — We had employment sufficient for them, without their applying for such relief. 9026. Do you think it desirable to change the law with regard to the relief of able- bodied persons ? — When a man is unable to get work, he ought to find relief from the public. Some means should be devised by which men in such circumstances should receive relief from the public. 9027. On what conditions, — On his showing that he is in want, and without means of employment? — I don't see how jou could tie him down with regard to want of employment. If he were in >vant he should be relieved. 9028. Would you give him relief without work ? — If you can employ him it would be more desirable than giving him money. 9()29. Would granting relief impair the provident habits of operatives ? — I don't think it would have the eflTect on a man who was independent — a man vvhose spirit would be above begging. But there are men who have no such spirit about them. It would have little or no effijct upon them. 9030, But might there not be an intermediate class, on whom the granting of relief might have the effect of impairing their habits ? — All lazy men would prefer directly re- ceiving money to labouring for it. It might encourage these people to idleness. 9G3i. The point is, whether, if you granted them a right to relief, you could suggest any safeguards by which you think provident habits would not be impaired ? — The only way is to find employment for them in some way. 9632, To give them work when destitute and out of employment ? — Yes. 9083. Do you think it desirable to alter the Scottish law of settlement at all ? — The time ought to be prolonged. It ought to be increased. It is much too .short. 9634. What time would you propose ? — I should not say less than seven years, — per- haps ten years. The reason I would give would be this, — that an extra demand for labour might occur in a place, and not be of long continuance. It might continue for two or three years. After that they have no natural claim on the community. The demand may then cease. Whereas, if work comes naturally to a place, by remaining for ten years, a party would then be entitled to receive relief. 9035. With regard to raising the allowances, do you think it would be proper to have any appeal except to the Court of Session from the decisions of the kirk-session ? — No, I don't think it would. 9036. You think the law as to that point good? — I think so. 9037. Is it not an expensive process ?— It is. If any cheaper court could be found it would be preferable, 9638. Could you suggest any such court? — A court of justice, 9639. Would you alter the body to whom it is at present entrusted ?— No, 9640. You would leave the management with the kirk-session ? — I think so. 9041. In large towns, where kirk-sessions have not the management at present, do you think it desirable to restore the kirk-sessions, or to leave these administrative bodies as they jire ? — I should prefer it in- the hands of the kirk-sessions. 9042. Why do you prefer the kirk-sessions? — Because these parties, if they do not make it their duty to become acquainted with the different parishes to which they belong, ought to make it their duty. Hitherto they have conceived it to be their duty, and they are much better acquainted with the parties than any others from that very circum- stance. 9043. Do you think their administration has a beneficial moral effect on the people?— I do. I should attribute the great want of morality among the people to a falling off among the kirk-sessions in not doing their duty. 9()44. In large towns or in country parishes ?— Wherever they have a field to do their duty ; but more particularly in the large manufacturing towns. 9645. {Dr Af'Fai-lan.) — Are the workmen in your employment in the habit of making dcpogits in provident banks ? — Some of them are. 9646. In any large proportion ? — I know some who have got probably 20/. or 30/. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMAIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 531 0647. And are these deposits generally made with a vie.v to accumulation, or to pro- vide for wants foreseen ? — I don't know what their object may be. 9648. You said it was necessary to elevate men from the degradation to which they are reduced, in consequence of poverty, before you communicate moral and religious instruc- tion, — do you think feeding and clothing them would elevate them?— I stated that both would require to go together. I said also that I thought it would be to little purpose to speak of education to men in utter destitution. 9649. Suppose destitution arises from improvidence and intemperance, would your remark be applicable?— If the destitution arise from the intemperance of a party, he is not altogether destitute, but he misapplies his means. 96o0. But you are aware that men, receiving a very small sum as wages, are frequently found to spend a large portion on intoxicating liquors ? — ■There are many such cases ; but I know instances myself, in our own work, where people who receive the smallest wages are in the greatest degree of comfort. It is not owing to the amount of wages, but to tlie good conduct and management of the parties. A man with an economical and well-doing wife, may live on small wages, while a man with an improvident wife, may be in difficulty and distress with a half more wages. \)i]r}l. Then supposing a considerable increase made to the allowances, but without affording religious and moral instruction, do you not think a party would squander what he received for the supply of his temporal necessities ? — No doubt, the improvident man would. 9652. Would it increase his intemperance and improvidence ? — No doubt of that. 9653. And would a provision made from the public funds for destitute persons, not prevent them from emigrating ? — It would. 9654. How would you meet that in making provision for able-bodied persons ? — I don't know how you can meet it. If people are actually in want, and requiring support, they must have it in some way. 9655. How would you meet the objection in making a provision for the able-bodied, that it would prevent them from seeking employment elsewhere and emigrating ? — -The only way would be, to keep the sum at a small figure. You must not make it such as to induce them to remain. Men disposed to work would not stay here receiving a small pittance. 9656. Then you would think it necessary in such a plan, that the provisions should be inadequate in some measure ? — I would take care that he should not be overpaid. 9657. Is it your opinion, looking not at Greenock only, but at the towns in the neigh- bourhood, that the working population is superabundant ? — Quite so. 9658. What means of relief would you recommend ? — Emigration ; and converting unemployed lands to useful productive purposes. 9659. Spade husbandry ? — Yes. 9660. (Mr Twi»letun)^li\ granting relief to able-bodied persons, would it not be essential that the conditions annexed to the relief should be such, as that the state of men receiving relief should be less desirable than that of an independent labourer ? — Surely. 9661. Supposing a system of relief were devised with such conditions, do you think it would prevent a person receiving relief from emigrating, or seeking employment else- where ? — I think, if at a low figure, it would not. 9662. Then everything would turn on the conditions which you annexed to the relief you gave, with regard to the effect on their emigrating, or seeking employment else- where ? — Most assuredly. 9663. {Lord Mdville.) — Have you anything to suggest ? — Nothing farther than that a larger supply should be obtained for the poor. They are very inadequately supplied. 9664. {IJr M'Furlan.) — Is your observation of those receiving parochial relief exten- sive ? — I have not been going about, but I know the state of destitution in which they are. I hear the complaints which the people make themselves, both at my own house, and at all times. I hear from others who are in the habit of visiting and seeing them, that they are in a state of great want and destitution ; and but for begging, they would starve. £i:iiiiination.i. GbE KNOCK. Mr R. Steele. 2« April Win. Robert Hutchinson, Esq., Examined : — 9665. (Lord Afehnlle.)—! believe you are collector of the police assessment .'' — Yes. 9666. And sub-treasurer of the fund for the relief of the unemployed ?— Yes. 9667. How long have you been collector ? — Five years. 9668. Does that lead you to any knowledge of the situation or habits of the lower classes ? — Yes. It brings me into collision with them a good deal in the way of surveying for laying on the assessment. 9669. You have no personal knowledge of their mode of life, or the adequacy of their allowances ? — I cannot say 1 know much about that. A great many of them seem in a very starved looking state. 9670. First, with regard to the relief fund — that was for the unemployed? — For the unemployed principally. 9671. Is that still going on ? — It is still going on. 9672. You say "principally?" — There have been some who were on the parish, and who latterly received relief. Mr Hutchinson. 532 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE KiinniiiiEiiions. (iREKNiiCK. Mr Miilchinson. 26 April I1J4:{. 0673. How long was that going on ? — I think it commenced in June 1842. 9674. Do you recollect the greatest number you had at any time ? — The greatest num- ber was 1172 families, with 3.398 dependents — 4770 persons. 967.5. Were these all usually resident in Greenock? — Yes: all above three years. 967(). Did you limit the distribution of the fund to persons with a legal settlement in Greenock ? — As much as possible. 9677. Were they chiefly ship-carpenters, or persons engaged in ship-building. They were of various trades. I have a list here. 967H. They appear chiefly labourers I — The principal part of them. The list I give in is difi'erent from that given in by the provost. The list given in by the provost is of the whole unemployed in Greenock at one time ; but the list I give in is of all those on the soup-kitchen under the relief fund. [The witness then put in the following statement :] — STATEMENT of UNEMPLOYED OPERATIVES who were upon the SUPPLY. Bakers, Block-makers, Boat-builders, Boiler-makers, Bottle-maker, Brass-founders, Cabinet-maker, Carpenter.?, Carters, Clerks, Chain-makers, Coopers, Cork-cutter, Crystal- cutter, Engineers, ... Fishermen, Forge-man, ... Flax-dressers, Gordeners, ... Grinder, Galbertman, Hatters, Labourers, ... 13 Brought forward, 884 2 Masons, 14 7 Moulders, ... 14 34 Mill- Wright, 1 1 Nailer 1 8 Painters 7 1 Pilot, 1 93 Rafters, 4 17 Riggers or Sailors,... 48 2 Rope-makers, 7 20 Sawyers, 41 20 Shoe-makers, 20 1 Slaters, 8 1 Smiths, 51 20 Silver-smith, 1 5 Saddler 1 1 Tailors, 36 3 Tobacco-spinners, ... 2 2 Tanner, 1 1 Tinsmiths, ... 6 4 Turner of wood, 1 3 Upholsterer, 1 625 Weavers, ... 6 884 1156 9679. In what way do you suppose the others maintained themselves? — Pcincipally from selling their furniture and pawning their clothes. The greater part lived upon what they had, subsisting on a scanty allowance. 9680. Are they likely to be all employed soon ? — I see little prospect. 9681. To what do you ascribe the unusual number of persons out of work ? — Just the want of trade — the breaking up of large works, such as employed carpenters and founders, and the want of shipping trade. 9682. The ship-building trade is relaxed a good deal? — It has gone down a great deal. There is very little of it. 968.S. Were any measures taken with regard to the children of unemployed people ? — None by the relief committee. There were several who had charge of the poor in conacxion with the charity school — who sent a good number of the children there. 9684. Have \ ou found the fund adequate ? — Adequate so far as it goes ; but it requires a good deal of labour to get it raised. 9685. Chiefly collected in Greenock ? — The principal part was ; but there was also a part received from the central committee in Edinburgh ; and other small sums were obtained from other quarters. 9686. (il/r Twisletun.) — From what you know of parties oh the relief fund, have you formed an opinion as to how many of them were of good character and of provident habits previously ? — .1 cannot say I have formed any opinion with regard to their previous habits. But I know a considerable number are of improvident character. 9687. Others on the relief fund were, you think, provident ?— I think sq. Some of theip had something in the prff\'ident bank, and delayed for a considerable time before they applied. Numbers before they had face to apply sold everything — very respectable tradesman. 96X8. Did they appear to you to be generally grateful or otherwise for relief? — These individuals I allude to were very grateful. But others were not. They seemed to think the committee bound to give the money which is granted. 9689. Then the fact that the money was collected by voluntary subscription did not make them grateful .'' — Not at all with those improvident characters. 9690. Which system do you prefer supposing the funds sufficient — that of requiring work from parties and giving them sufficient to maintain themselves in health, or giving them a low allowance and permitting begging ? — I should think tjj© preferable way would POOR LAAV INQUIRY COMxMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 533 be to give them what would sustain life without begging or working. While the working Ksaminations. system was going on in Greenock for a considerable number of months, I had charge of (iRKKsocK. all those hands, paying them every night ; and we could not get them to work at all. They yr „ . . ^^ did not work anything in proportion for what they were receiving, Is. a day. .^g .■^^,,.[1 ia4a.' 9091. They were not on piece-work .-* — The committee tried them with breaking stones ; but the committee found they did not work in that way ; a number of them buried stones and covered them over with broken metal. 9092. What, even the good characters ? — No. Some of them made up to IGs. or 18s. a week. 9693. Do you think it a good system to allow a man on the relief fund to earn 16s. a week ? — No, when they found it out they stopped it. 9094. But with regard to persons of good character, would they not be willing to work without receiving a sum so large ? — Yes. Many of them were willing to work for Is. a day. 9695. Which system do you think the more demoralizing — giving them work or allow- ing them to beg ? — The begging is the more demoralizing. 909G. Have you been long resident in Greenock P-^I have been here all my life with the exception of two years. 9097. Are you acquainted with the general habits and feelings of the operatives P-fJ cannot say I am. 9698. Is it your opinion that it is desirable in any way to alter the laws with regard to the relief of the able-bodied? — I can scarcely express an opinion on that subject. 9099. Do any other points occur to you ? — With regard to those who receive relief from the session, there is room for great improvement ; for 1 don't think they are getting sufficient to sustain life. Most of the allowance goes for rent. 9700. How do they subsist? — By begging or relief from the funds — but the former principally. 9701. What would you consider a fair allowance for a man past work but not bed- ridden ? — He could scarcely live on less than 4s. a week. I suppose many on the parishes are not getting more than 2s. 6d. a month. 9702. Supposing the allowance raised to that amount, and the others in proportion, what increase of assessment would be required ? — A very great amount certainly. 9703. There would be difficulty in increasing it ? — Very great difficulty. 9704. Would the assessment be trebled ? — Yes, more. 9705. Would that be an objection to your proposal? — I think it would. 9700. Then would you still recommend raising the allowance to that amount ? — No. I should not recommend it ; but my own opinion is, that they could not do without that. 9707. If they were received into a public institutioti, would they cost that? — My opinion is, that a public institution raised for all and sundry would be a much cheaper way of keeping them. Perhaps I may be Avi'ong ; but I think it would be better and clieaper for all parties. 9708. Does any other point suggest itself.' — Nothing. 9709. {Mr Campbell.) — In ordinary times what is the usual rate of labourers wages in this part of the country ?— 12s. 9710. Have many of those labourers a wife and family of three or four children? — Yes. 9711. Then would not the proportion you would allow to an old man be greater than that which a labourer's wages would allow for his family ? — I should consider an old man like that would require more in proportion than a family. 9712. {Dr M'Farlmi.) — Why ? — He would require a person to keep him. He could not keep house for himself. 9713. (Dr Twisleton.) — Could he not lodge? — He could. 9714. (J)/' M'Farlnn.) — Have you known ca-'iCS of extreme misery arising from desti- tution where the individuals were of good character ? — I have known, for three months past, many steady industrious workmen who have come to destitution. 9715. But I mean on the parochial relief list? — That is a question I could scarcely answer. Those I know are given to drink ; but I cannot say anything as to the character of that class generally. 9716. Have you made any observations with regard to persons on the poor roll of good character ; and what is the remark you have made on their condition ? — I have known several on the poor's roll, as females, — widows, — not able to keep house. They try to keep lodgings, but are turned from house to house (if the ticket is not lodged for security) every week almost, from not being able to pay their rent. Where they get money they should get a ticket to purchase provisions. On the other hand, where they keep the money to pay rent, they must beg for the sustenance of their families 9717. And these are sober well-doing persons? — So far as I know. 9718. And you have access to know their character? — I think so ; with regard to various people in my own neighboifrhood, who receive parochial relief. But they may bo otherwise. 9719. Have you reason to believe that there is neglect on the part of the elders and deacons with regard to the wants of the poor ? — I don't think there is any neglect so far as the funds will allow. But they are cramped in their means. 534 SUNUTES OF EYmENCE TAICEX BEFORE TIIE Examinations. Okkknock. 3fy Gray, Town- clerk, Greenock, Examined : — 26 April 1843. 9720. (Lord Melville.) — You are town-clerk of Greenock ? — I am. 9721. How long have you been so ? — Four years. I was previously junior town-clerk for eight years. 9722. Are you at all acquainted with the police department ? — I sit as assessor to the magistrates in the police court. 9723. Your situation brings you to have a good deal of information with regard to the lower classes in Greenock ? — Yes. 9724. There has been a considerable degree of destitution among them for some time hack ? — There has, to a very considerable degree. The cases in the police court, however, have not been so numerous during the last year. 9725. To what cause is that to be attributed? — Why, we observe that there are more cases in the police court when work is plentiful. 9720. You mentioned that there was a considerable amount of destitution ? — A great deal. 9727. You attribute that to the want of employment.'' — I do, — clearly. 9728. Is there a good deal of intemperance among the lower classes ? — A good deal among particular classes of the working people. 9729. Have you frequently found that bring them at last on the parish for relief? — Very frequently. 9730. Is it more common among particular classes than among others? — We find it among founders, ship-carpenters, and smiths, more common. 9731. You have no knowledge, from your situation, of the state of the parochial poor? — No, except the casual poor. I have had occasion to see a good deal of that from parties coming to the council chambers applying for relief. 9732. Do they get relief from the council chambers or from the parish funds! — The parish funds reimburse any outlay which the magistrates allow. 9733. Has that increased of late ? — Within the last twelve months there is a very decided increase. 9734. That is in addition to any relief to the unemployed? — Independent altogether. 9735. The same people would not receive relief from both? — No. 9736. Have you any knowledge of the number of public houses in the town of Greenock? — About 350 licensed public houses. 9737. Exclusive of grocers ? — Some of these also grocers. The magistrates about three years ago passed a resolution not to license as publicans those who dealt in groceries, but they were obliged to break through the rule. There were so many attempts to impose on them. The applicants first obtained a license as publicans, and afterwards they opened a grocer's shop, and there was no control over them. 9738. Has the number of spirit shops increased ? — No ; not increased within the last three years. 9739. Do you consider such a number necessary for the accommodation of the town ? — I do not. 9740. By whom are they licensed ? — By the justices of the peace for the county. 9741. Have any means been taken to reduce their number? — The magistrates have at- tempted to lay down rules. But as the justice of peace clerk is not bound to take his in- structions from them, the rules are liable to be broken tlirough. The magistrates found their labour was lost. 9742. The justices are chiefly gentlemen residing in the neighbourhood ? — In the town and neighbourhood. 9743. Is there a sheriff-substitute here ? — Yes. 9744. (^f^• Caniphell.) — The occasional poor to whom the magistrates give relief, are they strangers ? — Generally. We are a good deal annoyed with strangers from the neigh- bouring towns requesting passages to Belfast — parties so destitute that the magistrates rather than let them go away, give them a passage. It is a great burden on the poor funds. The parties are total strangers, coming from Glasgow or Paisley, or other neighbouring towns. 9745. What is the expense of a passage to Belfast? — 2s. 6d. is the fare at present. To Londonderry, 3s. ; to Dublin and Liverpool, 5s. 974(3. Have you an idea of the number that pass through Greenock ? — I think the ave- rage is four in a week. 9747. Does the passage become cheaper in summer ? — No. But the magistrates have frequently got the passage to Belfast for Is. 6d., or nearly Is. Gd., half- fare. Upon giving a certificate to the master of the vessel, he generally of himself gives a passage at that rate. 9748. Does he take any charge? — They take no particular charge, as the vessel does not touch at any port betwixt this and the other side. 9749. Do you find people coming back for relief? — Yes, I have. But when they get away they generally stay away. They find the means of bringing themselves here, but not of taking tliemselves away. 9750. They come generally in numbers? — They generally come in numbers. 9751. And they come from different parts of the country .'' — Yes. 9752. Do they seem in a state of great destitution when they arrive ? — Very great We have parties also from other parts of Scotland in very great destitution. 9753. What parts ? — I cannot mention them very particularly ; but these are parties going about from place to place. POOR LAW INQUIRY COir\nSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 535 9754. Coinin<:f by land ? — Coining by land. 1)75.5. Do any of them come by a steam-vessel? — They do. 9756. Do they try to gain a residence here ? — Sometimes they remain here with that view. But notice is given to them to remove ; and when they express willingness to be removed, we 'give them some aid. 9757. Do they go when aided ? — Generally. 9758. Do you find any of them return ?— I cannot say we have. These parties are ge- nerally threatened with confinement if the}' return. 9759. {Mr Twisleton.) — "Would you be entitled by law to confine them ? — No. It is a mere threat. 9760. (Lofd Melville.) — Have you a police act? — Yes; there is an act passed last year. 9761. {Mr Ttoisleton.) — Do you think it desirable to give the power of confining those who come back to the magistrates .'' — I think it would be desirable to have a mode of charging the parishes to which the parties belong with the expenses, and a summary mode of obtaining payment. 9762. Is there difficulty in obtaining payment from parishes just now? — Very generally. 9763. Is the process expensive ? — Yes. You require to send a mandate to a procurator in the place to prosecute, however distant it may be. 9764. What cheap mode would you suggest for the recovery of the money? — If authority were given to an official to recover the money, and remit that to the parish which may have expended the sum. If he is entitled to prosecute for the amount expended, an affidavit might be received of the amount disbursed, — some such arrangement might answer. 9765. {Mr Campbell.) — Would it answer to give such power to the procurator-fiscal ? — I think it would. 9766. Before the sheriff in the small debt court? — Yes; and that an affidavit should be received as conclusive of the party having been allowed the amount. 9767. Would the sum in the small debt court be sufficient to cover the amount? — Generally the sum so expended is so small that it would. 9768. {Mr Ticideton.) — Can you state cases in which difficulty has been experinced in obtaining repayment .'' — Yes. There was a case lately with Largs. There have been some from Glasgow. There was one case from Dumfries : and there have been several other cases, but I do not recollect them all. That at Largs involved a pretty large outlay. A person from thence had come to Greenock, and having been taken ill, became insane, and was confined in an asylum. He was sent to his native place when well. That was the north of Ireland. We applied to the Largs people, but they never answered our letter. 9769. {Mr Twisleton.) — Supposing you had prosecuted? — We should have been obliged to go to the court, or send a party to attend at an expense ]jerhaps of 30s. or 40s. ; and most likely the sheriff would not have allowed more than 3s. or 4s. for the expense of prosecution. 9770. Would the sheriff not have allowed the expense of maintaining your claim.? — Not in the small debt court. 9771. But supposing a provision made for the expenses of prosecuting claims, would not that meet the case ? — Supposing it were, it would in a great measure. 9772. Would it not make another parish willing to resist an improper claim? — It would perhaps. 9773. Have you experienced any inconvenience from the want of a house of refuge in Greenock to which destitute persons can be taken temporarily ?— Yes. We have frequently felt the inconvenience ; and it is often distressing to witness many poor people who have not such a place. They are allovfed to go about quite destitute. 9774. You think such an estabhshment desirable ? — Very desirable, especially for females. ;)775. {Mr Robertson.) — As assessor you have an opportunity of knowing the circum- stances of parties brought as delinquents before the court .'■ — Yes. 9776. With regard to juvenile delinquents have you had any opportunity of knowing about their education ? — Most frequently none of them have education. The poor crea- tures are brought up to crime. When they come to us very young, we find their parents are ill-doing. We find they have been taught to beg for meat, and when they do not beg they steal. 9777. And do you regard the want of proper, moral, and religious education, as one of the chief causes of juvenile delinquency? — 1 do. 9778. (3//' Twisleton.) — Have you seen many of the parochial poor at the police office? Not many. 9779. Then you have not formed any opinion with regard to the adequacy of their allowance or the condition in which they are kept ? — Yes, I have as an elder in one of the parishes. I have had occasion to examine some of their cases, and they are really not allowed a fair sum for support. 9780. What is the consequence of the inadequacy of their allowances? — They are obliged just to beg and get assistance from their acquaintances and others. 9781. Is begging common in Greenock? — Not so common as it was. There are parties whom the poor's rate committee think ought to be allowed, and these parties get tickets, 9782. Have you any statement of the proportion of those who are allowed to beg ? — No. 9783. Do you think it a good system allowing to beg ? — I don't think so. It is har- rassing to the feelings to see them go about with their families. 9784. Does it lead to lying? — I daresay it does. They resort to that to get com* miseration. Examinations. Greenock. Mr Gr.av. •-'0 April lij43. 53G MIKUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxdniinations. 9785. And will they not conceal from one what they get in charity from another ? — Urftnock. They will. Mr Cray 1)7S(). So that in many cases this trade of befjjifing may be more agreeable than work •26 .\pril 18*43. to an indolent man ? — It may be so. When we have found them to be strangers, instead of sending them to prison, we have sent them outof town. 9787. Which do you think better — begging or a decent maintenance for the destitute so as to leave them no excuse for begging ? — I think the latter. But some prefer begging, as they make more of it, and get drink. 9788. These beggars levy a certain tax on the community as it is? — They do. 9780. So if they were allowed a proper maintenance, the expence to the community might not be greater though the amount of the assessment would be somewhat greater? — All parties would pay their proportion, while the feeling p, rt of the community pay more at present, and those who refuse to give voluntary charity are freed. 9790. And would not these sources of the large means of subsistence obtained by beggars be cut off? — They would. 9791. So that the deserving poop would get more and the undeserving less? — Clearly. 9792. Have you had cases of able-bodied persons under your notice in a state of desti- tution ? — Yes. 9793. Do you think it would be proper to make a provision for able-bodied men when destitute ? — I should think it very desirable to make temporary provision. 9794. By a temporary assessment ? — By a temporary assessment — I think the best mode. 979.5. What conditions would you annex ? — I am not prepared to state exactly what they should be. If parties are out of emplo\'ment for a certain time, and have no means of supporting themselves, they ought to get relief from public funds if there are any. 979G. What would be the effect on provident habits if such a system were established? — There may be a difference of opinion. Some think it would make them less provident. I have not come to a conclusion on the subject. With the greater number it would lead them to be less provident, I make no doubt. 9797. If conditions were affixed that would make it undesirable? — It would depend very much on the conditions for their relief. 9798. Do you think it desirable to alter the present Scottish law of settlement? — I think so. 9799. What would j'ou propose? — Were six, seven, or eight years instead of three made the minimum, it would be better. 9800. What would you do with Irish parties who have no settlement in Scotland but are destitute and require relief ? — There should be power to remove them to their own country. 9H01. Do you know wliether in Ireland they have power to remove paupers to Scot- land? — Well, I have no objection that they should have such powers, if these paupers were Scotch. The proportion would be very small I suspect. 9802. Have you been inconvenienced by the power in England of removal to Scotland ? — Not here, so far as my observation extends. 9803. Have you had any specific cases of individuals removed to Greenock from Eng- land ? — I think there has been one. 9804. Was that a fair case ? — I think it was a very fair case. • 9805. Are there any other points which suggest themselves to you?— No other point. Mr W. Martin. ^f>' ^VilUam Martin, Yixojmned : — 9806. (Mr Ticisletoii.) — You have the superintendence connected with the soup-kitchen ? —Yes. 9807. How long have you had that superintendence ? — It is nearly twelve months since the last began. But we have had on previous occasions also. I had it the preceding year also. 9808. We are told that a ration consisted of three-fourths of a quart of soup, one half- penny roll, and six ounces of oatmeal ? — Yes. 9809. Of what was the soup composed ? — Barley, pease, with some vegetables, turnips or cabbages ; and cows' heads, which I have always found made most nutritious soup. 9810. What was the expense of three-fourths of a quart of soup ? — At first, ^d. ; it is less than ^d. now. 9811. As to the oatmeal given by you, was it that purchased by tender .' — Not by ten- der, but at the very lowest price. We ascertained who were the greatest holders, and got the meal at the very lowest mark. They were willing to let us have it at the very lowest price. 9812. What, according to the price at which you bought oatmeal, would be the cost of the six ounces ? — The sack of oatmeal is about 280 lbs., and that will cost 25s. Perhaps the six ounces might be about ^d. We ascertained how much porridge it would make. 9813. Independently of the soup and the oatmeal, and the roll, you had had an allow- ance of potatoes and herrings ? — No ; we had herrings till they got high priced. We found we got meal cheaper than herrings, and therefore we changed. 9814. Wliat was the half roll made of ? — Coar.sc wheaten flour. 9815. How often did you distribute from the soup-kitchens? — Every day.; and on POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 537 Saturday we gave a double allowance of bread, and a double allowance of meal; but we E.Muniiiations. did not serve out any soup on Sunday. Guekxuciv. 9816. Will you explain what was tbe number of soup-kitchens, and the arrangements? Mr W M-»rtiii — We only had one. We began last May, and had at first only a couple of boilers. We ac^Apiil \sr.i. gave employment to parties in breaking stones ; but that was found too expensive for the funds. They then threw the whole on the soup-kitchen. In September or October we liad to get additional boilers, which we boiled twice a day, — late at night, or very early in the morning, — and we had a second boiler ready by the time we served out, from twelve to about four o'clock. We seldom got done till past four. 9817. Wore there great crowds around the soup-kitchen, or did they divide once in the four hours.'' — We at first had a good deal of trouble. But what brought them to order was to get a chaplain to speak to them — the chaplain of the Seaman's Friends' Society. He addressed them in a covered place. 9818. He recommended them to be orderly? — Yes. But latterly they fell into regu- larity of themselves. There was a good deal of confusion at first, but not after they got into order. Now they know the time when they should come, and it goes regularly on. 9819. Have you visited any of them at their own houses ? — No. 9820. From tlie appearance of the persons who come to you, are they apparently in -a destitute condition, or otherwise ? — Tliere is a great mixture of late. There are persons who have fallen from a better situation in life, who are obliged to resort to us. They are clean, decent, respectable. But there are other large classes who are very destitute and ragged and dirty. It is mostly the wives and children that come for a supply. 9821. The men don't come ? — Very few of them. ' 9822. Do they appear grateful for what is given ? — They generally are. There are a few exceptions, but they are very few. We have an immense number of poor widows (who keep lodgers, and struggle for an existence) in a seaport town like this. 9823. Was there a large proportion of widows ? — There were a great many of them ; at the first we were obliged to turn over to the session. Widows have a claim on the session. They were more willing to come to us than to go to the session. 9824. Do you consider that they have a (daim where there are no children ? — Where we found that they had a claim, we turned them over on the session. Now we are going on a fund raised legally by assessment. 982.5. Do you give widows additional relief? — Some of the committee give something additional where the allowance is not sufficient for them. 982(). Do you know the proportion of widows on the fund? — I could not tell you. 9827. Are there many, do you think? — More than fifty. I should think at least 100; because many of them are left young, and the session are not very fond of taking them on as permanent paupers till they have reached an advanced age. 982.S. Would they not give an occasional allowance ? — They do so. 9829. You mean the allowance given is but inadequate in your opinion ? — I think so. The allowance given to the poor is inadequate to their wants. If it were n«t for what they get from others they could not get on at all. 9830. Is there much begging ? — The paupers are allowed to beg upon Saturday. 9831. Those in the receipt of parochial relief? — Yes. 9832. Is that a good system ? — 1 am not prepared to say. It is necessary for them- selves in the meantime. 9833. Which is the best system ; allowing them to do that or giving them an adequate allowance, and not permitting them to beg ? — I should think it better not to allow begging. 9834. Do you tliink that begging promotes lying ? — To a certain extent. Yet parties have particular families they go to, and each family sets aside something for them on Saturday. 9835. That is those on the parochial list ? — Yes. I was one of the superintending committee sometime ago ; and we let them all have a badge to show whether they were the poor of our own town or those who had no such right to relief. 9836. Do you think any on the parochial list beg who are not entitled to beg ? — I cannot speak as to that. 9837. What would you consider a fair allowance for an old man past work not bed- ridden .' — I have never given it a thought. There are many old men, with a little industry and application, who, by fishing and so forth, can get a little ; they can do a good deal for themselves ; and people who are thus industrious would require comparatively a smaller sum. 9838. Past work I said. You had formed an opinion when you said the allowances were inadequate. Ought you not to form an opinion of what is adequate ? — There is no difficulty in finding that 4s. or 5s. a month to a widow and child is inadequate. But the difficulty is to say what is adequate. 983!t. Are there not means of employment for widows in Greenock ? — There is a good deal ; but it is much fallen off in Greenock of late. One source of emolument was taking in lodgers and things of that sort. 9840. Is it easy for children at an early age to find work in Greenock ? — No. We have an immense number of children here, and nothing almost can be got for them. There is a good deal done for their instruction ; but there is a sad recklessness among parents. Our population are sadly deteriorated by so many of the lower Irish among us. There is a large cotton-mill up the way ; but they are choice as to admission. They never admit any except those whose characters are known to be good. 9841. Do you think the poor have increased coramensurately with the increase of the 3 Z 538 MINUTES OF E\nDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Greenock. Jlr W. Martin. 2S April 1843. population ? — I don't think so. I have in my pocket a report of the home mission, which has a good many statistics, That was in the year 1830, when the population was 10,000 less than it is now. 0842. {Mr Hobei'tson.) — Then in point of fact you don't think the parents avail them- selves of the means of education within their reach ? — They do not. 9843. And do you consider the state of education better or worse than in other localities ? — I am not prepared to say it is what it ought to be. But there is no want of schools, for they don't avail themselves of these. We have a free school here ; and we have been breaking through the rule, and taking children whose parents were alive, but unable to educifte them through poverty. 9844. Do you know much of the able-bodied population in the town, except what you see at the soup-kitchen ? — I do not. 9845. Have you formed an opinion whether it is desirable to grant relief except from an assessment ? — There is no doubt that no person should be permitted to starve ; but I have lived long enough in England to see how matters are abused there. 984(3. Where did you live in England ? — 1 kept house in London for eighteen years. 9847. When did you leave it ? — I left it about seventeen years ago. 9848. Then you are speaking of the old law ? — Yes. 9849. As I understand the session give badges, and permit the paupers to beg, in order to distinguish them from vagrants ? — Yes. 9850. Are there any other points that suggest themselves ? — Nothing. It has occurred to me, thinking of the operation of the poor laws here, that the allowances given to the paupers generally in the towns is too scanty ; while, according to my past experience in , England, I have thought things were carried too far (for I was often in the poorhouse at Mile-end road, where I thought them well fed), it has gone to the other extreme in Scot- land. 1 think there is very little doubt that there should also be an alteration in the law of settlement. 9851. In order to extend the period.'' — In order to extend the period. Tliursday, 21th April 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Yiscount Melville, Henry Home Drummond, Esq., IM.P., James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Kev. James Robertson 'LORD VISCOUNT JiIELVILLE IN THE CHAIR Dr H. Thomson. Br Hugh Tliomson, Examined : — 9852. {Mr Tivisleton.) — You are a district surgeon in Greenock ? — Y'cs. 9853. How long have you been district surgeon ? — I was first appointed in March 1833, by the board of heiilth. It is two years past in February since I was appointed, by the an- nual meeting of heritors and kirk-sessions, district surgeon for the poor, 9854. Have you frequent occasion to visit the dwellings of the poor? — Yes. 9855. Botli those who are in the receipt of pafochial relief, and the poor who arc not? — Chiefly those in the receipt of j)arochial relief; but for the last year I have had occasion to attend others who arc not receiving j)arocliial relief. 9856. In reference to those in receipt of parochial relief, do you think the allowance, on the whole, is adequate to maintain them ? — The allowance they receive is not at all adequate. 9857. Do you find that their allowance is supj)lemented from other resources? — Some of them receive a little from the marine fund, — a fund for poor seamen, in the tovra. In general, so far as I know, the allowance they receive from the parochial fund is no more than suflScicnt to pay the rent of the houses they live in ; and they are obliged to beg for their sustenance. Those who arc not able to go about are generally boarded with some other poor persons, who get so much for keeping them. 9858. Do you refer to those solely who are licensed to beg, or to others also? — All those who receive parochial aid may receive the badge if they apply at the oifice for it. Aa far as I know, there is no prohibition to any person against begging through the town. 9859. Is bej^ging throughout the town frequent ?— Yes. 9860. Whi»t "la.ss do they beg from ? — From shopkeepers, and from all classes in general W'ho live in houses of 5^. or 6/. rent. Indeed, a great many who live in houses of 5/. rent are little better tlian paupers themselves, and to them the paupers need not go at present ; but in general I have seen paupers go into houses rented at 5/. and GL 9861. Some of the sui)erior ojjcratives live in houses of that kind? — Yes. 9862. Do you api)rove of the system of licensed badges for begging? — I do not see well how they can exist without begging, under the present jioor law. It is so fai" an imjjrove- ment to give them badges, that people may see those who belong to the town, and those who do not. POOR LAW INQUIRY C0:MMISSI0N FOR SCOTLAND. 539 9863. Would it not be better to give a sufficient maintenance, and prohibit begging? — Examination?. I would approve of a sufficient maintenance without begging. Greenoc k. t)8()4. What is the effect of begging on the character of the paupers, — does it raise or p^ H. Thomson, demoralize them ? — I cannot well answer that. I should say that the system of begging, in 27 April 1843. comparison with that of a regular and sufficient maintenance, is demoralizing. Any relief they get is very uncertain. Some days they may get on very well, and other days get no- thing at idl. The system cannot be productive of good to those who are improvident. They go about even in the worst weather. 98()5. Does not their going out exposed in bad weather tend to create sympathy ? — To a certain extent. 986(5. And has not begging a tendency to produce lying, and exaggerated narrations of suffering ? — I caimot say that I know many instances of that ; but I should suppose that it might have a tendency to cause people to do so. 9867. Are you of opinion that the pi-ovision for medicines and medical relief for the poor is sufficiently ample ? — It is not what I would like it to be. I do not think that it is alto- gether adequate. It would be of importance if persons were more easily admitted to the infirmary than at present. The laws of the infirmary prevent any one from being admitted without a line from a medical man, and from a subscriber to the infirmary. They have sometimes a good deal of. trouble in getting a line properly signed. If the medical attendants at the infirmary act strictly to the law, they would often have to refuse a great many per- sons who require admission quicldy. Persons meeting with accidents are admitted without a subscriber's line ; and fe\'er cases are admitted on a line from a medical man ; but in other cases they arc not admitted without a line from a subscriber. 9868. The infirmary is not in any way connected with the parochial relief? — No. The only medical rehef for the poor connected with the assessment are the district svu'geons. 9869. But, without reference to the infirmary, take the case of a pauper who falls sick, what is the first step that must be taken to obtain for him medical relief? — The first step is to get a line from the elder to the district surgeon. 9870. Are these lines promptly given ? — Yes. If he is a pauper, the elder of his district knows he is not able to pay for medical assistance ; and in other cases, so far as I have seen, the elders grant the lines, when asked, to others who are not on the poor's roll, whose ap- pearance indicates that they are not able to pay for medical attendance. I cannot say I have ever received a line requesting me to attend a person, whom I did not find, after two or tluree visits, unable to pay, whether on the poor's roll or not. 9871. Have the district surgeons the power of ordering nutritious diet? — No. If they wish to order any particular diet, they give a line to the elder, stating that the patient requires it ; but the elder has not the power of ordering, more than 3s. or 4s. before the next meeting of session ; in general I never could manage to get the elder to give more than a few shillings to any one needing such assistance. 9872. The kirk-session meets once a month ? — Yes. 9873. What kind of nutritious diet is given on such occasions ? — On some occasions the elder gives an order upon a grocer to the pau])er for some meal and potatoes, or other cheap provisions ; but the common practice is to give one or two shillings to the pauper to purchase whatever he thinks proper. 9874. Ai-e mutton and porter ordered ?— Generally some beef to make soup, or mutton. 9875. Is beef or mutton often ordered? — Not very often. 9876. Is wine ordered ? — I have the power of ordering wine, I just give the patient a line to get so much from a wine-cellar in the town, without the intervention of the elder. 9877. Hov,' long has the system of district surgeons been established? — Three district surgeons were appointed for the town at the annual meeting of February 1841. 9878. Previously to that what was the system ? — In March 1838 there were no district surgeons at all, — there was no medical aid to the poor but the infirmary. Fever was rery prevalent in 1838. In the winter of that year many were out of employment, and the fever was thought to be owing to the poor living of the people. A meeting of the inhabitants was called. Three district surgeons were appointed ; and a soup-kitchen was opened, which was continued till smnmer. The district sui'geons continued for two years and a half. The money that was subscribed at that time was expended, and the whole thing given up. 9879. It was a temporary ai-rangcment ? — Yes. At first, it was through lines received from ciders, that the district surgeons attended. After the board of health gave up the charge (that was the name given to the board that appointed the district siu-geons), the kirk-sessions saw it was necessary to carry them on, and they were appointed at the follow- ing meeting in 1841. 9880. Do you think the medical relief was inadequate before ? — It was very inadequate. > Many fever cases were not attended by medical men at all, — some recovered, and some died. After the district surgeons were appointed, whether it was from natural causes, or from their attendance, fever became much less prevalent. At that time there were about sixty fever patients in the infinnary ; and in the course of a month or two, they were reduced to twenty. I presume this was partly owing to the appointment of the district surgeons, and getting the sick separated from the healthy. 9881. Do you find inconvenience from the want of an asylum in which old bed-ridden poor might be received ? — 'J'here is great want of a place for the accommodation of such jier- sons. They are occasionally sent to the infinnary, which is not a place for them at all. They are sent in, and remain for a month or so, and are sent out again. If the house is full, they refuse to admit them. 540 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE KjaiiiiuHtlous. 9882. Is there any other elaas of persons for whom a public institution or hospital, or Greenock. -workhouse would be desirable?. — Yes, I think that orphans would be better accommodated Pr H Thomson '" ^0"^^ institution of the kind, than iu the way in which they arc taken care of at present. 27 April 1843. They are boarded throughout the town, and in the country sometimes. The sum paid for their board is small ; and I do not think they are overly provided with necessaries. 9883. Do you visit them? — I have opportunities of seeinp; them occasionally. 9884. What class of persons do they board with? — Operatives generally. In some instances they are very well taken care of; in others they are comparatively neglected ; — much depend* on the individuals with M'hom they are boarded. 9885. Have you observed that they are crowded together any where ? — I cannot sav I have observed that. But in regard to othor paupers who have no houses of their own, they are boarded with some poor person, and they are often very much crowded together. 988G. Have you an opportunity of seeing any of the lunatics who are maintained by the parish ? — No. Most of them are maintained in the country. Those who are outraffe- 0U8 are kept in Hillend asylum, and those who arc not outrageous are sent to the country. A good many of them are sent to Luss. 9887. Do you think it is a good plan to send lunatics to board in the country ? — Yes, those who arc harmless, 9888. If they were sent early to an asylum, might they not be cured ? — Some might ; but hopeless cases cannot be benefited much by any kind of treatment. 9880. Do you know how the lunatics arc treated who are boarded in the country away from your observation ? — No. I have seen one or two of those who are boarded in the town. They are allowed to do what they like themselves, and have very poor bedding. They appear to be neglected. The persons with whom they are boarded seem not to have sufficient control over them. 9890. Have you had occasion to attend particularly to the treatment of lunatics ? — No. 9891. What is the condition of the paupers boarded out? — They are not exactly boarded out, — some have an allowance of so much a month, and are allowed to board where they choose, and they generally go to low houses A\hich are just kept for the boarding of paupers, and where they pay so much a night. I went into one of these lodging houses in the Yenncl, consisting of two rooms about four yards square In the back room were four beds, and a small passage about two feet broad between each bed. The beds were quite filled. It was in the night time when I went in, and in the first apartment I stepped on the top of one who was asleep on the floor. The floor of this first apartment was covered over with beds. In the two apartments there were about t\\ cnty individuals lying. 9892. Was the smell offensive ? — Yes, it was very bad. 9893. You stated that fever was prevalent in 1838, what do you consider to have been the cause of the diffusion of fever that year ? — It was generally considei'ed to be owino- to the people not getting sufficient provisions. During that year there was little employment for the labouring classes. 9894. Do you concur with that opinion ? — Yes. I do not mean to say that the disease was caused by that, but that It tended very much to sjircad the complaint. 9895. Had the previous year been a year of prosperity or the contrary ? — I think the previous year was a plentiful year. 9896. Did many strangers come to Greenock a year or two before 1838 ? — ^I cannot eay ; but I am certain that a year or two ago a great many strangers came to the town. 9897. Supposing the fact were that a great number of strangers had come into the town a year or two previously to 1838, do you think that the houses being peculiarly crowded on that account would explain the diffusion of fever ? — I think that indiN-iduals crowding the houses might be a cause for its diffusion ; but 1 do not think it would origi- nate fever altogether. I have noticed that Irish labourers newly arrived from Ireland were liable to catch fever ; very often before they got work they were sent to the infirmary labouring under the fever. 9898. Have you traced fever in many cases to bad drink, or nauseous matter of any sort ? — I have not. 9899. Your opinion is, that one of the many causes for the spreading of fever is desti- tution ? — Yes ; one of the many causes for the sjireading of fever I consider to be destitu- tion ; and another, the crowding together of people in one house. 9900. Might not the crowding together of people in one house take place when trade was brisk? — Yes. 9901. Would it not appear to you to be doubtful to infer destitution from the prevalence of fever to a great extent ?— So far as I have read, I find fever has often prevailed in plen- tiful years, both in this country and others. 9902. Might not that be accounted for by the unusual influx of strangers in such years, and the consequent crowding together in one dwelling ? — I do not think I have ever observed I that to be the ciise. 9903. In regard to able-bodied persons generally, have you visited many of them not in the receipt of parochial relief? — Yes, a good many last year. 9904. What has been their condition ? — They were as badly off, in many cases, as the paupers themselves, especially the Irish labourers. 9905. AVere their houses destitute of furniture ? — Yes. 9906. Has there been much sickness among them ? — A great deal last year. 9907. How do you explain that ? — It is difficult to say what is the cause of it. I would suppose that fevers being contagious diseases, are not altogether owing to destitution and crowding together in one dwelling, they only assist in the spi-eading of these diseases. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 541 9908. So that when fever is prevalent you would be inclined to infer the existence of tliese two aiding causes ? — Yes. 9909. Tlicse two aiding causes might exist without fever existing at all ? — Yes ; and I am of opinion that the disease might prevail to a gi'eat extent, even although there was no destitution. 9910. Do you think intemperance predisposes a j)erson to be susceptible of fever ? — Yes. 9911. Do you think that the absence of the means of intoxication has contributed to the absence of fever? — I think it may have done so in some measure. 9912. Do you furnish medicines as district surgeon? — Yes; I have a salary of 20/. per annum, and 51. besides for medicine. 9913. IIow many cases in the year may you have under your charge, — gay for the last two years, 1841 and 1842? — I had in one year 109, including all diseases,-^-some of these were sent to the infirmary after a short attendance, when I foimd that the cases were fever cases. From Febmary 1842 to the end of the year, I had 165 cases ; and from 1st January to this date, I have attended ninety-four. 9914. Arc you allowed aiiytliing extra for particular operations, — midwifery cases for instance ? — We arc not expected to attend midwifery cases. When a medical man is re- quired in midwifery cases, the elders may give an order for the district surgeon to attend, and he is paid extra for it. 9915. Are they jiaid extra for surgical cases? — There is no extra allowance for surgical operations ; but such cases are sent to the infirmary, if Ihcy cannot well be attended to at the houses of the patients. 9916. Is it usual to call in medical practitioners to cases of midwifery amongst pau- pers ? — It is not usual. There are not many paupers on the roll who require medical attendance in that way. It is not usual to request medical men to attend cases of that kind at the expense of the parish. 9917. In regard to able-bodied persons, would it be desirable to grant them relief from the assessment ? — I think that such relief shoidd be left entirely to the discretion of those who have the suiierintendence of the poor. I do not think that the able-bodied should have a right to parochial relief. 9918. In what way would you propose to allow kirk-scssions to gi-ant them discretion- ary relief? — I think that in a case of that kind, after proper inquiry, they might make them an allowance of so much provisions each day. 9919. Without requiring work in return? — Yes. 9920. Amongst the poor you have visited, have any come to Greenock for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? — I do not think any have come expressly for that purpose. 9921. Do you know cases of parties who have come at an advanced age from Ireland, and have obtained a settlement here ? — No. I remember one old woman who came from Ireland. She made several applications to get on the roll ; but she was always rejected. I think the ground of rejection was, that she had not rented a house, although she had resided three years. 9922. AVhat is the name of that woman ? — She is dead. 9923. Do you know of any cases of that kind from the highlands ? — I do not know of one of that kind from the highlands. 9924. Is it the practice here to grant relief to persons who have no settlement ? — Any relief granted to persons of that kind must be temporary. 9925. But is relief granted, for instance, to Irishmen who have no settlement ? — Occasionally, though not often. JNIost cases of that kind are when sickness has got into the family, and they are occasionally allowed something — a shilling or two ; but any such allow- ance is very irregular. Perhaps a shilling or so miglit be given to them as it were to-day, and when it is done they may ask for more, and may get it ; but sometimes they get nothing at all. In such cases the sick person is sent to the infirmary, if the elder cannot make a proper allowance, and if the family cannot get proper provisions for the patient. 9926. (Mr Rohertson.) — You stated that if the regulations of the infirmary were to be strictly enforced, considerable difficulty might occur as to the admission of persons, — in point of fact, are the regulations so enforced as to cause the difficulty to which you referred ? — Sometimes they are. Some of the medical attendants of that institution do not insist rigorously on the enforcement of the laws ; but others again may refuse to admit a patient, 9927. You have visited paupers of respectable character at their own houses ? — Yes. 9928. In what general condition ai'e they in regard to character — I mean those in the receipt of parochial relief? — A few of them are aged people. I have seen some of them tolerably comfortable — good people. I do not know whether they received aid from other societies or not. 9929. Have you seen many of good character and of provident habits in a state of ex- treme destitution, — I mean those in the enjoyment of parochial relief? — It is not very easy to know the character of those persons. Those whose characters I know, and who are weU- bchaved ]ico]ile, are, generally speaking, in tolerable comfort. 9930. Is it usual for the poor to be assisted by their relations ? — There are many who get assistance from their relatives. 9931 . Do you not think that the kirk-session, in fixing an allowance, take into consider- ation that source of support ? — Yes ; and I think they should take it into account when the relatives have clearly a sufficiency for themselves. In many instances relatives do make an allowance to their j)oor friends when they cannot very well aflford it. 9932. Put where relatives can make an allowance, you do not conceive that kirk-sessions Examinations. Grbenock, Dr H. Thomson. 2/ April 1 a43. 542 IkllNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Greenock. Br H. Tliomson. 27 April 1G43. should provitle altogetlier for tlic pauper, but merely give him something in aid of other sources ? — Yes. 9933. If the allowance of those who spend it in vicious indulgences were increased, woidd it improve their cii'cuaistanccs very much ? — Not in the present system of giving the allowances. I have seen persons, when in the receipt of good wages, as much in want of comforts as they now are. 9934. {Mr Twisletoii.) — Then an increased allowance to such parties, to have a beneficial effect, would require to be given under some system of checks ? — Yes. 9935. A^liat ^-^ould you say to granting relief to such persons in a workhouse ? — I have no experience of the workhouse system ; but I think that a house for the accommodation of such as are not able to work at all, and who are not receiving any assistance whatever, ex- cept from the parish, would be a good thing. Orphans woidd be nuich better accommodated in a house of that description ; but those who are able to work a little, with the assistance they get from the parish, would be as well off out of the workhouse as in it. 993(5. In regard to those persons by whom an increased allowance would be abused, do you not think it would be a fair condition for rate-payers to require that such persons should go into an institution where they could not make a bad use of tlie relief given to them ?— Yes ; if relief were given to such persons in provisions, there would not be much risk of abusing that relief 9937. Does any otlier point occur to you in regard to the administration of the poor laws ? — I think that the elders who have the distribution of the poor's funds have not the means of knowing how the money they give is spent, I think that in a large town, such as this, it cannot be expected that the elders can be acquainted with the paupers throughout their districts, or that they can take any great pains to ascertain how they spend the money given to them. It would be a great improvement if an officer were appointed in each parish to make inquiries of that kind, and ascertain how the allowances were spent. 9938. Is it not the duty of the elders to visit the poor in their respective districts ? — It is their duty. 9939. Do they not perform that duty ?— In some cases when the poor are sick they do ; but, so far as I have seen, the duty is not very well discharged. Eev. J. Stark. Tlie Eev. James Stai-k, Examined : — 9940. (Lord MelviUe.) — You are one of the ministers of Greenock ? — Yes. 9941. Is the administration of the parochial funds — at least that portion of them which belongs to your church — under the administration of your session ? — They have been so for about four years — since August 1839, I think. 9942. Docs it consist wholly of assessment ? — "VMiolly. 9943. Are none of the collections at your church applied to the poor ? — No ; but a part of the collections of the three churches is put into the general fund. 9944. How do you arrange as to the amount you expend in the district ? — No rule is laid down by the heritors. The kirk-sessions are at liberty to judge of the amount given in every case, and they judge of every case separately. 9945. Is there a separate assessment for your parish ? — No, there is only one assessment for the whole town, and a part of it is allocated to our session. If we require more, we are at perfect liberty to draw more. 9946. It belongs to your session to regulate the allowance ? — ^Yes ; but we are guided, in some measure, by what is usual. We have no rule ; but we generally do as the other kirk- sessions do in the town. 9947. You judge also of the claim of individuals who apply to be put on the roll ? — We do. 9948. You also administer occasional relief to the casual poor ? — Yes. 9949. Does it fall within your province to see many of the poor within their own dwell- ings ? — Yes, it does, within my own district. 9950. Does it appear to you that the allowance usually given is sufncient? — I do not think that it is so in general. 9951. I presume you take into consideration that they have other sources of income? — We always make inquiry into that. If they have friends who are able to assist them, we apply to them, and urge them to provide for their poor friends ; and we frequently succeed. I called on the sou of an old woman, who required to be maintained ; and he agreed to pay her rent, and give her 4s. a month. Where we understand that the friends of the poor are able to do a little for them, we make the allowance less. 9952. You consider you have a claim on the friends who are in a certain degi-ee of affi- nity ? — Yes, in the dhect line ; we consider that they are bound to support theii* poor rela- tives. 9953. Do any of the poor on the roll resort to street begging? — A great many of them do,— they are obliged to resort to it. I know several cases where the allowance is scarcely more than sufficient to pay house rent. The ku-k-sessions allow begging ; and badges are given for the ])urpose. 9954. Are they confined in begging to their own parishes ? — No, they are allowed to go through the whole town, but not beyond it. They have to wear the badge round their neck, or at least in such a way as they can show it if required to do so. 9955. Suppose that begging ^YCYC p.ut an end to, and that the poor were compelled to subsist on what they get from the paiish, having no fViends to assist them, in what propor- POOR LAAV INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND 543 tion would you require the allowances to be incre.ascd ? — Tlie allowances are not equal, some have a great deal more than others. The average allowance I should think would require to be doubled. Four or five shillings a month is the average here to a widow without children ; if she be sick, and unable to do anything at all, 7s. or 8s. a month. 9956. Wliat would you give to a widow with three children under age ? — In one case we gave a widow with three children under age 12s. a month. 9957. Was slie able to work ? — She was : this allowance was just for the children. In some cases we give more, in others less. Sometimes the mother is able to do something ; but I should say that where they have nothing else to depend on, it is by far too little. 9958. Do you think the poor on the roll are orderly or other^\ ise in their conduct ? — A number of them are ; I know some of them to be worthy, pious people, and these arc cases well attended to. I know one woman of this character who gets as much from other sources as she gets from the parish. The people who are worthy are well attended to here by private per- sons. 9959. Is there much intempei'ance among the poor ?— A good deal. I know one case of a woman who is intemperate. Her house is a wretched one. She and her children are lying on the floor, having bunied the wood on the bottom of the bed for fire-wood. There is no furniture in the house. Intemperance is the cause of this ; and whatever sum she might get, she would not be a bit the better. 9960. Accordingly an increase would make her worse? — Yes, 9961. Is there a great M-ant of furuitui'c in the dwellings of the poor >' — Yes. In Stanners Street there are many poor who have no furniture. We sometimes take the children from the parent. In one instance, we have boarded the child with another family, and pay 5s. a month for it. A lady who has taken an interest in the child, allows her nearly as much privately. 9962. Is any care taken as to the children of the poor ? — All are sent to the charity school. We cannot compel the parents to send them, we ask them to do so, and we give the children a card of admission to tlie school. I believe they are mostly all in the school. If they have no clothes, we give them clothes. In addition to what the children get, we give them a suit of clothes every year. The charity school is supported by subscriptions. All the children of the poor are at liberty to go there for education, and it is filled with them, not only with the children of paupers, but the children of others who are not able to give them education, or are not willing. I have given lines to a good many whose parents might liave given them educa- tion. I beheve the parents were poor, but they were unwilling as well as poor. 9963. Have you many persons applying to you who come from other places ? — Yes, in consequence of Greenock being a sea-port. A woman from Belfast came here the other day to look after her son, who had gone to Edinburgh, I gave her money to help her to Edinburgh. 9964. Are many of your paupers from Ireland ? — ^Very many of our paupers are from Ireland, I believe that there are more Irish in Cartsdyke in proportion, than in any other fart of the to^vn. The houses arc bad, and they congregate together. In Stanners Street, have seen four or five families in a small room. 9965. Are they of any particular profession ?— They are almost all labourers. 9966. And they all acquire a legal settlement before you put them on the roll? — Yes; but we are put to a great deal of expense in relieving those who get sick, who have no settle- ment ; and oftentimes death occurs, when the session are obliged to be at the expense of burying. The other day I was called on to visit a house in Stanners Street, where a young man was lying very imwell. I got him sent to the Infirmary. He died, and we had to bury him. I gave the mother at the time 2s. 6d. to liel]) her, although she had no legal claim to relief; and although the young man had no legal claim, we coidd not allow him to lie, and die in a garret. 9967. Do you think the period required for a settlement is too short ? — I think so. It is a great evil to town parishes especially. There are sevei-al cases in Cartsdyke, in which the parties applied to be put on the roll, who had been only a few weeks above three years in the parish. A great many come from Ireland, and remain for tlu-ee years, and thereafter apply to the session. 9968. Do you consider begging to create an industi-ial residence ? — We do not. There are, however, doubts on the subject ; and we are afraid that the expense of a plea, although we should gain it, woidd counterbalance any saving that might arise from refusing the claim so made by a beggar. We have found great difficulty in getting the parishes to which many of the poor belong, to take up their cases. 9969. Does it appear to you that those coming from Ireland who remain here three years, and then claim the benefit of the poor's fund, come over for the express purpose of getting on the roll ? — I was told of the case of an old Irishman, inore than three score yeai"s of age, who admitted that he had come with that object, because, he said, the Scotch people woidd not allow him to die on the street. 9970. Who told you of this instance ? — Mr James Kerr, bookseller. The old man had gone into the shop, and said so. It is three or four years since Mr Kerr told me the fact, but I remember it distinctly. 9971. They mostly come at an earlier period of life? — They generally do. 9972. Have many of them families? — Almost all of them have wives and families. 9973. Do many land here, and go into the country ?— I think they generally go to Glasgow. The making of the railway brought a great many here. One great evil is, that the parents of the Irish have little scruple in leaving their children. 9974. Do Scotch people do so? — I do not rccoUect an instance of Scotch parents doing 80. One case I may mention — the father had gone to sea — the mother ran ofl' with anothgr Examinations. Greenock. Rev. J. Stark. 27 April 1843. 544 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE examinations. Greenock, Kev. J. Stark. 27 April 184a. man to Dundee, and left the children on the street. We have taken care of them ever since. 9975. What steps do yon take to ascertain the justice or validity of a claim of relief? — We send an elder and deacon to the house of the applicant. The parish is divided into dis- tricts, and tlie elder and deacon examine the house, and report. Tliey examine also the landlord, to sec if the party has been the requisite time in Greenock ; in short, they inquire into every circumstance, and asccrtam whether or not they ha\e fiicnds. 9976. Have you reason to believe that tliat duty is performed ? — In every case. The old residcnters of the parish are so well known, that we do not require sometimes to make inquiry at all, the elders being well acquainted with their circumstances. 9977. What is the population of your parish ? — 3()00. 9978. Do you find any difficulty with such a number in inquiring into the cases ? — Not the least. 9979. Have you many Eoman Catholics on vour roll ? — A considerable number of them. 9980. You do not make any difference with them ? — We do not. 9981. As to their children, Avhat becomes of them?— We take the same charge of them. 9982. If their parents are alive, and choose to send them to a school of their own, do vou interfere ? — We do not object to that. We make no distinction as to religion in reUev- mg them. 9983. {^fr Tunskton.) — What are the parishes in regard to which you have found diffi- cidty in getting them to take up the cases of their poor, who have acquired no settlement here ? — There is one with which we are in correspondence just now, the Abbey parish Paisley. The husband of a family fi-om that parish died. The residence was two years and nine months. He left a widow with three or four children. Wo ))uried the husband, and took charge of the children. They get 12s. a month. We liad some difficulty in tracing out tiie parish. Mr M'Ewan told me that although he has got a sulKcient quantity of evi- dence, stUl they refuse to take the woman. There is another case, the case of a child born in Anderston, in the Barony parish, Glasgow. The father brought the child down here, and engaged a woman to nurse it. He went to England. The woman got nothing for it. V^'e sent her to the liarony parish ; but the treasurer refused to do anything in the matter, "\^'e sent up the officer, and got sufficient proof that the child was born in the Barony parish, in Anderston. A third case — the case of a woman froua Dumbarton. AYe think, indeed wc arc sure, that the woman has a claim on that jiarish. We received two letters, stating that the case Avould be laid before the heritors at the first meeting, We have heard no- thing since, 9984. Might there not be a difference of opinion In these parishes In regard to the settlement ? — There was a difference of opinion. 9985. Tliat difference of opinion might occur anywhere ? — It might. We still expect that they will take the paupers. We know that they have no claim on us ; but still they are here. 9980. {Mr Bohertson.) — ^You stated that you considered your allowances to paupers In- adequate, — you also stated, that in reg.ard to decent pious poor, their circumstances were comfortable, in consequence of their allowance being snpj)lemented by jirivate charity — do you tliink the effect of that jirlvate charity is beneficial on the parties receiving It ? — Yes, on the parties giving and receiving it. 9987. From the circumstance that the respectable poor are made comfortable, would you approve of any alteration that would render this charity unnecessary ? — I should wish that the kirk-session and heritors would raise the allowance. AVhere the people are well behaved, and where their neighbours are good people, the moral effect is good on the paupers receiving pri\'ate charity, and on the person giving it. I know of cases of paupers who behave well ; tiiey are respected by those who are called on Ijy them to give them a httle. 9988. If their circumstances are comfortable now, and if private charity is beneficial, as you say, would it not appear tiiat, In regard to those cases, the system now in use works well ? — Yes, In cases whore the paupers are respectable and well behaved ; but not in other cases where the paupers behave iU. There are cases of jiaupers spending all they get in drink. 9989. Would an enlarged allowance be Avell applied in such cases ? — I think not. 9990. How would you provide against the abuse of it ? — I have sometimes thought that if the allowance was given in kind, and not in money, and given weekly, they would not have the same temptation to expend it in a bad way. 9991. You stated that all the children had an o])portunity to attend the charity-school, in point of fact, do they attend, and attend for a sufficient time to obtain a good elementary education ? — I cannot say. I know, however, a number who have attended regularly for years. 9993. Have you reason to be satisfied with the education of the poor in your parish ? — It is not as it ought to be. 9993. Does that arise from imwillingness on the ])art of the parents, or inability to keep them at school ? — -From both causes. Wiien tr-ado is gmid all the labouring classes get good wages ; but mvich of it is expended in drink, I know the case of a family where the mother is well-behaAcd, and the father is given to drink. The children attend the charity scliool regidarly, and have done so for years. 9994. (/jord Melcille.) — Have j'ou anything to suggest in regard to the operation of the poor laws? — No, excepting in regard to the term of settlement, which is by far too short, and operates very unfavourably In large towns. People come from Ireland and England here in search of work ; and whenever trade Is de2)res8ed an Immense population is thrown on the resources of the town. POOR LA^?; -s^u&Y COilMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 545 9995. Would It be advisable to give a legal claim of relief to able-bodied persons who have not work ? — No ; the eifect would be to keep them from looking after work. During the late depression of trade many lived here on the fund subscribed for their relief ; but I have known many of them go off' to Glasgow and other places in search of work, all of whom succeeded in getting i^^^ Examination)). Gbeenock.. Rer. J. Stark. 27 April 184:i. John Denniston, Esq., Examined : — 9996. {Mr Campbell.) — You are a merchant in Greenock? — Yes. 9997. And you have taken an active charge of the poor here ? — Yes, for the last six years. 9998. You are a member of the superintending committee ? — Yes. 9999. The kirk-sessions give in an estimate every year to the heritors and feuars of the sums required for the poor during the next year ? — -Yes, every year. 10.000. At the same time the committee a|)pointed by the heritors and feuars regulate the superintending committee who look after the distribution of the fimds, and give to the kirk- sessions such sums as they require ? — Yes, that is the mode. We have a treasurer who ma- nages the details. Every thing is managed by the superintending committee. 10.001. You attend the superintending committee and see how it works? — Pretty regu- larly. The most important part of the duty is attending to the appeal of parties assessed who think they are overcharged. 10.002. The assessment is on rental, and on means and substance, one-half on each ? — The lieritage pays one-half, and means and substance another. Proprietors of houses pay accord- ing to the rental. 10.003. Tenants do not pay except on means and substance? — Just so. 10.004. If a man's property be worth a 100?. a year, and he has boiTowed money on it to the extent of 80/. a year, still he has to pay the assessment on the whole 100/. ? — When a man pays on heritable property the burdens on that property do not -go to diminish the assess- ment at all. 10.005. Are there many complaints in regard to the assessment on means and substance ? — Not many. 10,00G. Have you occasion to alter many of the assessments laid on ? — Not many. There is an exact list of all the alterations, which can be seen. 10.007. In whose hands is that list? — In the hands of IVIr M'Ewan, the treasurer. We have had more appeals during the last three years than ever we had before. 10.008. Do you attribute that to the circumstance of a change in the trade of the town ? — It arises from that entirely. The assessment is generally limited to parties having an in- come of 40/. a year and upwards. If the income is less than that the party is understood not to be assessed. 10.009. Are you aware what is the largest allowance given to paupers ou the roll ? — 10s. a month. 10.010. What is the average allowance to a single jiauper ? — 3s. or 3s. 6d. a month appears to be the average of the district I have charge of, and it is a very fair estimate. 10.011. Are these allowances sufficient for the maintenance of paupers who have no other means of subsistence ? — It is never contemplated as sufficient. 10.012. How is it contem[)lated that the pauper is to live when he has no other means except what lie receives in charity ? — Either by begging or receiving something frwn some charitable'institution. 10.013. Are you also an elder or deacon ? — I am a deacon. 10.014. In what part of the town ? — Middle parish. 10.015. In that capacity do you visit the dwellings of the poor? — Yes. 10.016. Do j'oii find the destitution very great? — Very great. 10.017. Are many decent persons among the destitute ?— Oh, ye.'^; a great many. 10.018. Do you find others of a different desciiption very destitute, such as persons of in- temperate habits ? — Yes. 10.019. Is there a great difference in the appearance of these two classes of persons re- ceiving the same allowance ? — ^Much difference. A respectably behaved person in this state has more friends than those who are ill conducted, and who are more dis])osed to give them charity. The appearance of the respectable class is better. But if they had nothing to de- pend on but the allowance, it woidd not be enough to account for the difference. 10.020. Yon attribute the difference of appearance in the houses of the well-behaved and the intemperate to tlie greater assistance which the former get from private charity ? — Yes; and the allowance will go farther in the hands of a well-behaved than in the hands of an in- temperate person. 10.021. But you think the allowance from the poor's fund is not sufficient for the subsist- ence even of a well-behaved person ? — It docs no more on the average than pay the rent. 10.022. Woidd raising the allowance have a bad effect on intemperate and improvident jiaupers ? — It would not add to the comfort of an ill-disposed person ; but it would add con- siderably to the comfort of the well-behaved. When an ill disposed person requii-es partial relief, I have, on more than one occasion, given a line of credit to a grocer's shop, authorising the grocer to supply the party with a certain amount of provisions per week, under the im- pression that this would work well ; but I soon discovered that the provisions were taken to a spirit shop and exchanged for whisky. There are many spirit shojis in town who will 4 A Mr J. Dennistoii. 546 AIINUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKE^ ^^^;«:^E THE Examinations, barter in that way very readily. Some spirit-dealers are grocers, and they will very readily G reenoc k. iq^q oatmeal for whisky. Mr J. Dciiniston 10,023. Would you propose to relieve such persons in a workhouse ? — There are some 27 April 1843. people, for instance widows, who are utterly neglected by their relatives, and have nobody to look after them, who, I tliink, nioi"ally and physically, woul»' ' , tpuch more comfortable, and better looked after, in a workhouse. '^^l' ' 10.024. And all persons who make a bad use of their allow?,T!ce, would be better in such an establishment ? — Yes, unquestionably. 10.025. Would you place well behaved persons in such an establishment? — I would make it optional to them. They have an opportunity of showing a good example to their less worthy neighbours, which would be lost in a workhouse. It is possible that some might prefer being put into such an estabhshment, but not many. 10.026. Of what country are the greater part of the poor in your district ; are they natives of Greenock, or do they come from other places ? — A gi-eat many are Highlanders. An immense proportion of the poor in my district ai-e widows and orj)hans, and a great many Highlanders. 10.027. Are they Highlanders by birth? — Yes. 10.028. Do they come here in search of work, or with the view of obtaining a settlement in Greenock ? — A great many of them have spent the best of their days here. 10.029. Have you many from other parts of Scotland ? — Not many. There are some Irish in my district, but not a great many. 10.030. Is your district one of the best ? — No, it is one of the worst. There was one pe- culiarity in my district ; it possessed a landlord for a long time, who was a Highlander, and very indulgent to his tenants. It has occurred to me that that is one reason Mhy so few Ii-ish are in the district. lie was an excellent man, and exceedingly indidgent and kind, and attached to his countrymen ; and that I believe to be the cause why so many High- landers are in the district. 10.031. Do you think the period for obtaining a settlement is sufficiently long? — No. 10.032. What term woidd you propose? — There should be some difference between a mechanic and a labourer. 10.033. On what groimd ? — Chiefly because we have a great many labourei-s who come from Ireland. Sly reason in making that remark is what I have observed in connexion with the railway here. It afforded temporary employment to the Irish, and a great many of them came here, and were employed sufficiently long to enable them to obtain a legal settlement. We have it in contemplation to enlarge the harbour, which will take three years at least. It is not likely that that work will go on without a great immigration of Irish : and, in the event of their afterwards becoming paupers, wc shall get a great many on the parish. The same objection may apply to masons. There has been a very unnatural stinmlus given to the stabile nianufocture of the tovm — the building of steam-boats. We have had, in conse- quence, an immense accession of strangers and labourers — people who were never here before. Some of them have lived long enough among us to entitle them to come on the parish ; and it is scarcely fair that the circumstance of their being here, only three years, during this vmnatural stimulus, should entitle them to relief from us. 10.034. You think it is particularly necessary, in a place such as this, to extend the penod of settlement, because there being so many casual opportunities of employment, strangers are brought to the town? — Yes. 10.035. And, as the greater part of the persons employed in such casual employment are labourers, it is more necessary to extend the period of settlement, in regard to them, than in regard to mechanics ? — Yes. 10.036. Have you known instances of pai'ties coming to Greenock for the purpose of ob- taining a settlement? — I caimot point out any, because Me have a limited agricultural neighbourhood. Towns in the midst of an agiicultui-al neighbourhood are more liable to such an occurrence. 10.037. Do you know the rate of allowance to the poor in the neighbouring parishes ? — No. 10.038. Do you think the general condition of the poor in Greenock, I mean the lower part of the working classes, has been improving or falling back of late years ; I do not speak of the present distress ? — It is only for six years that I have known any thing of them at all. 10.039. AVere you connected with the committee for the relief of persons thrown out of employment last year ? — Yes. I was senior magistrate ; and, dm'ing the absence of the provost, I attended all the meetings at the commencement of it. 10.040. Were the majority of persons that applied to the committee for relief, persons of industrious, temperate, and provident habits ?— I thought the majority of them industrious, and that those who api)licd latterly Avere also of provident habits, but those who aj)plied first were, many of them, of improvident habits. 10.041. Were many intemperate persons among them? — Yes, a good many. 10.042. Had you reason to be satisfied with their conduct when employed by the relief committee ? — The great majority of them were emi)loyed in breaking stones, and were very idle. It was estimated, by a person able to judge, that they did not give labour equal to the payment they got ; not at all equal to it. 10.043. Did they show no inclination to give over this kind of labour? — The great majo- rity of them showed none whatever. 10.044. The mode of relieving by labour was abandoned? — ^Yes, from want of funds. 10.045. You supplied theni with soup? — Yes, because that required less capital. 10.046. WoiUd it be desirable to give a legal claim of relief to able-bodied persons ? — Decidedly not. POOR LAW ^y^UIRY CO]V£\nSSION FOE SCOTLAND. 547 10.047. Would you gi^Vhink it ri'^^'^'^'^T power to any set of men to be appointed in different districts, in cases ^yj^ pmitV'-y' ^^ assess the districts for the maintenance of able- bodied men ?— That might Qyjjj ^||y( the rate-payers themselves. 10.048. You think it v,;^,^;^^--' /-ter to leave it to them to assess themselves? — Yes; it might with justice to both j],g '^^^,J.^left to themselves. 10.049. ilave you thoug-^,,^-/^ f,^y check that you would apply in granting relief in such circumstances as at present,^, "^som- to prevent people taking wages without giving value in work in return ? — The only check we attempted to apply was, to turn those off that did not work ; but it must be admitted that we did not do that to any extent, being afraid, for the peace of the town. 10.050. Is it proper, on such occasions, to collect a gi-eat body of men In one place to work? — I think more work would be done by sending them to different places, because, when one man disobeyed, and talked rudely to tlie superintendents, he was supported by others, and that encouraged them to disobey. 10.051. You think they would be more easily controlled in small numbers? — ^Yes, though - it is possible they would require more superintendence in this way. When we found that they were not working properly, we employed parties whom we considered well able to juilge of what was a proper day's work for a man breaking stones, and we paid them after- wards by the quantity they broke. We then found that parties actually used to come at daylight In the morning, and work till daylight left them at night, and make 3s. and 4s. a day. The luiemployed men were, after this, not taken out before breakfast. A man was employed to say what siiould be paid for a day's work, between ten and six o'clock ; and for this they were paid Is. It was fairly estimated. The task required of them was fair and moderate, and what any ordinary workman could accomplish. Sometimes a father would bring his boys to assist him, and, to a certain extent, they did assist him ; but we were obliged to stop that, in consequence of the large sum of money expended. 10.052. Those persons who broke an extra quantity of stones were allowed extra wages ? —Yes. 10.053. You did not put the men on piece-work? — For a short time we did. 10.054. Why did you change from piece-work to day's wages ? — Because we had not money. 10.055. Did you put them to any other piece-work? — Not that I recoUect of. 10.056. Are many of them still out of employment? — A good many; but I have not attended the relief committee lately, and I cannot say the exact number. 10.057. Have you any alteration on the poor laws to suggest, besides, in regard to the law of settlement ? — I think that a separate establishment should be provided for orphans, of whom we have a great many. At present they are boarded out at a cheap rate. Those whom we get to take them are generally of a very low order in society, the allowance being only Gs. to 8s. a month. A respectable tradesman will not take them at these rates. It has become the practice now to send them to the country, which is a great Improvement. We find people in the country willing to take them at 6s. or 7s. a month. The expense of their education and clothes is paid besides. Although pains are taken to board them with respectable families, yet there is no superintendence of them. Their schooling Is often neglected ; no charge is taken of them, whether they attend school or not. In the town, they are scarcely ever visited at .all, and no exertions are made to teach them a trade ; and when the period comes when they cease to have a claim on the parish, they are txuned adrift without any one to look after them. Many of them have come before me in the police-court. They had no place wherein to lay their heads, but in the resort of thieves. The state of the orphans in this county is most melancholy. It would increase their comfort, and be the means of raising them up to a respectable station, if there was an establishment exclusively for them- selves, with nurses, and persons competent to educate them, and teach them a trade. 10.058. (i/?' Twuleto7i.) — Where there should be industrial training as Mcll as moral -Yes ; educated as children ought to be in their own families. 10.059. (Mr Campbell.) — Is the education of the children of the poor in a satisfactory state in Greenock ? — No. 10.060. Would it be of great advantage to the working classes if greater care was taken of the education of the chUdreu, tliat all should be provided with a good, moral, and religi- training ?■ ous education ? — Yes, it would be a great advantage. The means of obtaining It In this a charity school, where all In some other schools 2s. town is probably as great as In many other places. We have poor children and orphans are admitted by a line from an elder. a quarter are charged. 10.061. Do the poor not avail themselves of this opportunity to educate their children ? — Not to the extent they should. 10.062. To what do you attribute the not availing themselves of this advantage ? — A great many of our poor are widows, who have no control over their children. We have fre- quently made it a condition of relieving them that they should keep their children at the charity school ; and we have found that they could not compel their boys to attend. 10.063. The manner in which they are brought up must increase the lists of crime and pauperism ? — To a fearful extent. The children of widows are frequently in a worse state than if the mother were taken away altogether. In that case the children woidd be boarded out, and sent to school, and clothes provided for them. We gave 10s. a month to a widow who is paralytic, and has four young children. If she were dead, her children would be al- lowed 6s. a month each, at least. The mother has to be removed from her chair to her bed, and from her bed to her chair. The way by which she has kept her family alive, is giving lodgings to two young men from the neighbourhood where she was bom, in Ireland. By Examinations. Gkeenock. Mr J. Denniston. 27 April 184:!. 54IB MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniiiiations. Grkknock. Mr J. Bi'iiiiiston. •27 April 1843. her allowance from the poor's fund, and the trifle she g groCer:", Jier two lodgers, and occa- sional private charity, she lias been able to get along. ^ aie to give a mere pittance for the children when the mother lives ; and where t' m a wori-\ are orphans, they are fre- quently better off' than they were before ; but their con(y tneir relu-ithstanding, is bad enough. When they are boarded in a family, if the family co»iil<'_'^^/-f;;ni6trc8s, the children suffer equally. The board goes into the common fund ; anq '- ;iot think it is their duty to give the orphan children better food than then' own chl«lloWu"'-t During the late distress many of the orjihans were starving. 10.064. Have you any lunatic paupers on your roll ? — Twenty, I think. 10.065. How are they taken care of? — They are sent to an asylum here which is very admirably conducted. 10.066. Are you satisfied in regard to their treatment ? — Very well satisfied, indeed. 10.067. {Mr Twisleton.) — Has not this town benefited by the railway which unites it with other towns ? — I think during the time the railway has been in operation the trade has been very bad ; and it is difficult to tell whether we have derived much benefit from it or not ; but I should think that in ordinary times it must benefit the town. 10.068. Does it not confer an additional benefit on the property of the town ? — That is the general tendency. 10.069. Do you think it fair that Irishmen, who by their labour have raised the value of the property of the town, should be thrown off" altogether, and not obtain some kind of relief by residing a certain time in the town ?— I think it was the capital that conferred the benefit, not their labour. They were paid their wages. 10.070. But the capital would have been of no use without their labour? — The Irish were employed at the railway when many of our own labourers were not employed. I do not think the Irish were brought here because we could not find labour ourselves. 10.071. Would your own labourers have done the work as well? — It is possible that the Ii-ishmen employed might have been accustomed to such labour, — they have been generally employed in all such undertakings. 10.072. Why do contractors prefer Irishmen as labovircrs ? — I do not know. There were also a gi'eat many English labourers at work here. 10.073. Have you been burdened with them? — No, they went away when the work ceased. 10.074. In regard to Irish able-bodied labourers, do you find that these men remained here when there was no work for them to perfonn ? — When the relief connnittee was first formed, there was an immense number applied who had come here to get work, and who had never been in this country before. 10.075. As far as the system of parochial relief goes, they would obtain nothing from the assessment while in a state of health ? — Nothing. Many of them have })een three years here ; and if they had died, their families would have become a burden on the parish. 10.076. Do you tliink that many of the Irish who have bestowed their labour on the railway, have died here and left their families chargeable on the parish ? — I cannot answer that question. 10.077. Supposing some of them had died, would you consider it as imfiiir that their families were left chargeable, seeing that by their labour they did benefit the railway, — would you consider it unreasonable ? — No ; my only objection to the system is the shortness of the period of residence which entitles to parochial relief. lA'here a man has spent the best of his days, he should be relieved. 10.078. In regard to the assessment on means and substance, is there difficulty in ascer- taining what the income of parties is ? — I think t\m system has worked well here, in so far as that mode of assessment goes ; but the mode of assessing heritage is a very great burden. There is also another ground of complaint ; the proprietor is chargeable whether the rent is paid or not. The general practice is to deduct the third of the rack-rent for burdens arising from feu duty. 10.079. (Lord Melville.) — That includes repairs ? — Yes, and assurance. 10.080. (A/r Twisleton.) — Is there a favom'able opinion in town as to the propriety of an assessment on means and substance ? — I think so. Everybody is aware of its inquisitorial character, but it is thought a fair mode. It has worked well, and there is no objection to it. 10.081. Would it be desirable that a pauper should have a right of appeal ? — I think the Judge Ordinary would be as well able to do justice to the parties as the Coiu-t of Session ; and besides, the Court of Session is at a OTcat distance. 10.082. Is it proper that there should be an appeal at aU from the decision of the repre- sentatives of the rate-payers ? — In all that I have seen of the operations of the Middle parish, there is perfect fairness, I would say, in the way in which the allowances are adjusted. I never saw injustice done to one person. 10.083. But the point is, as to the supposed deficiency in the allowance, is it expedient that there should be a right of appeal as to deficiency in the amount of allowance ? — I think the matter might be fairly left to a body so constituted as the session of a parish. 10.084. How do you reconcile that with your opinion that the allowance given to the poor hitherto has been inadequate ? — The great olijcction to increasing the allowance is, because it would not be universal. It would bring people to this town to acquire a settlement for the pui-{iose of getting the benefit of the more liberal allowance. 10.085. Are not the funds in rural parishes distributed by kirk-sessions ? — Yes, chiefly in conjunction with heritors ; but I cannot speak of the i)ractice in coimtry parishes. 10.086. You mean that in towns the matter might be left to the sessions ? — Yes. 10.087. You have not personal experience in regard to that? — No. on. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 549 10.088. You would think it right not to alter the class of persons deemed entitled to relief Exami nations, in Scotland, but you would j)ropose to have a workhouse or house of industry for the aged, Orekncjck. and for persons who would abuse the allowance given to them, and you would have an jj^. j Dennisio. establishment for the truihi^^' , ? orphans ? — Yes ; and I would propose giving any widow 27 April ia4:i left with a large family tlie powt-r of sending any number of her children as might be consi- dered right to this institute". ♦■,'y she wished it ; but I woidd not compel a widow to part with her family. I know some widows whom we have been obliged to remove from all charge of their families. We h.ad a very bad case of this sort lately : we had to remove the children of a widow fron'. — ' 'ether. She threw difficulties in our way, knowing that if we got them away, none of the fuiids would come to her. The authorities imprisoned her, and when she was imprisoned, we got them away. It woidd be for the benefit of persons who would abuse their allowance to be sent to a workhouse. 10.089. In regard to mothers of illegitimate children, what is your practice, if they are destitute ? — We do not generally give any assistance to a mother left with one child, except when the child is being nursed. 10.090. Are there many cases on your list of mothers with two illegitimate children? — No, I never knew of one with two illegitimate children. I know cases of mothers with one illegitimate child. There are certain modes in which they manage to live. They hire them- selves out to nurse in wealthy families, and give out their own child to nurse at a low rate. 10.091. Is it common to apprentice children when they grow up? — The parish never does ; but the elders and deacons think it part of their duty to get an orphan child under their care apprenticed, or sent to sea, when they can do so ; but they are nuich neglected. 10.092. Supposing the children of widows should be allowed to take advantage of the institution you have referred to, would you propose that the children should be removed altogether from their parents ? — No, they should return to their parents at night. 10.093. AA'^here the state of education has fallen very low among the poorer classes, is it a sufficient remedy for such an evil, that, outwardly, the means of education should be provided to a proper extent ? — There is an equal want of superintendence in regard to the children of the working classes, as respects theii- education. There is no superintendence whatever as to the children of the working classes. 10.094. {Mr Robertson.) — Then, pj-actically, although sufficient means are outwardly ob- tained for education, yet it is no proof that the rising generation get a good elementary education ? — None whatever. The means are extensive here, but are not taken advantage of as they ought to be. 10.095. To render these means beneficial, woidd there not require to bo a considerable exertion on the part of the higher classes of the community to look strictly to the education of the children of the poor, and by persuasive means to endeavour to elevate the standard without to the children of the district ? — Yes. 10.096. JNIight not this be done by elders and deacons efficiently discharging their duty in their districts, and stipj^osing there were frequent visitations of the public schools ? — Yes, I know that the elders and deacons do consider this part of their duty, antl do exert themselves. 10.097. But in the discharge of this part of their duty, if there were frequent visitations, and if they had to report on the state of education in their districts, woidd not their hands be strengthened by these means ? — No doubt of it. The cause of the e^il is the want of some external authority to strengthen their hands. Sabbath school teachers often consider it their duty to visit the domiciles of the children ; but very few attend the Sabbath schools, except those who can read. I may mention that notwithstanding the very large amount of unexliaiisted teinds belonging to this parish, there never has been a parish school supported in whole or in part from the teinds. 10.098. Is poverty and destitution a cause why education is neglected ? — A very great cause. Since want of employment and destitution came upon the town, the police cases liave been less numerous than they used to be. I attribute this to people not having so much money to spend on whi3kJ^ In nine cases out of ten police cases result from drink. 10.099. Would you attribute that to the surveillance Mhich the upper classes take of the lower ? — No. The only surveillance that has been takt?n is as to relief. 10.100. Do not those classes who are receiving relief feel that they are now under a super- intendence that they were not formerly when they were not in the receipt of parochial relief? — That must have a certain effect ; but still they have not the money with which to get the whisky. That is the main cause why there are less police cases now. 10.101. Is there anything in addition to what you have stated that you would wish to suggest in regard to the operation of the poor laws ? I have often thought that the subject of life insurance is not sufficiently brought before the notice of the working classes of this country. It is a thing as likely to benefit them as it does those of a higher class. 10.102. Would you substitute savings' banks for insurances ? — If brought properly before their notice, they would find means both to deposit in the provident bank, and to make a provision for their families by life assurance. They think that life assurances are only for the rich ; but it is admirably adapted for the working classes. There is an institution in London, an annuity endowment association. A person at the age of 25 years, commencing to pay 30s. a year, and nominating his wife as the person to derive the benefit of it in the event of his death, if he dies according to the present state of the funds, his widow would receive 22/. 6s. Id. yearly as long as she lived. That institution is just now in a most flourishing condition. I have here the last report — the principle appears to be very con-ect. 10.103. {Mr Twisleton.) — Is that society mainly, or at all, supported by operatives ? — Not 550 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations. Greenock. Mr J. Denniston. •27 April 1843. at all ; but by persons in a higlicr rank of life, but the principle would apply to operatives as well. 10,104. lias the provident bank here been successfid ? — Very successM. One gentleman here has paid a great deiJ of attention to it, — Mr Lamont'"-^ believe the funds are nearly 60,000/. — almost SOg. for each udiabitant. Mr A. Fairrie. Adam Fairrie, Esq., Examined : — 10,105. (Air Ticiskton.) — You are one of the members of the superintending committee ? — I was. 10,10fi. Did you move a resolution proposing that a memorial should be addressed to government, requesting them to make inquiry into the state of the poor in Scotland ? — ^I tliink I did move the resolution. 10.107. "Will you state the circumstances Avhidi render you dissatisfied with the existing state of management of the poor in Scotland ? — The reason ^\hy my attention Mas called to this was in consequence of my connexion with the infirmary, when I found that the extent of fever was raj)idly increasing in the town ; and also from the great number of cases of distress which were brought under my notice. From niakiiig incpiiries into facts, and reading various works on the state of the poor, I came to the belief that inquiry was necessary and im- portant ; and at this meeting of the heritors, I moved the resolution referred to. 10.108. Have you been in the habit of visiting the dwellings of the poor? — On occasions of particidar calamity I have ; but I am not practically acquainted with the state of the poor, though in times of distress, such as we have had of late, I have been in the habit of visiting the dwellings of the labouring population. 10.109. "What was the condition of those in the infirmary that induced you to think that inquiry slioidd be made into the state of the poorP^I found instances of heads of families sent to the infirmary, whose families were left at home in great destitution ; and not having sufficient funds to keep parties in the infinnary aproper length of time, we have to send them out sooner than we otherwise woidd, and a relapse frequently takes place. When the head of a family was sent home just recovered from fever, it frequently happened that the rest of the family were attacked with it ; and the conclusion in my mind was, that the desti- tution in those families made them more liable to catch the fever when the head of the family returned in this state. 10.110. What is your connexion with the infirmary? — I have been treasurer for fifteen years. 10.111. In regard to the allowance to outdoor poor, have you reason to believe the payment adequate ? — It is very inadequate. 10.112. How do tlie [)arties receiving these inadequate payments subsist? — The payment given will do no more than pay rent. They must either have assistance from their fi'iends, or beg. 10.113. Do they often obtain assistance from their friends? — A certain portion of them beg ; but the more respectable do not, and nmst receive assistance. 10.114. Is begging common in Greenock? — It is pretty frequent on one day in the week. 10.115. Has begging a bad effect on the character of the parties begging? — I tliink it ' demoralizes the character. The poor shovdd have a decent maintenance. 1 know of some instances of widows who were resjjcctable before losing their husbands, who afterwards lost standing and caste, and sunk into the same degree of wretchedness as low paujiea's. 10.116. You think that widows should be aided, to prevent them sinking into a low standard of life ? — They should meet with some support for a certain time, — they should be held up to give them a fair opportunity to keei) themselves up. They shotdd be taken up at once till they get into employment. 10.117. And particularly m regard to the children — do you think it important that they should be looked after ? — Attention shoidd be paid to their condition. I think there should be some general superintendence of all fatherless children. 10.118. In regard to the cliildren of widows, is it desirable that they should have a good moral and religious education ? — Yes, the only hope of preserving them from demoralization is to educate them ; and in many cases this wiU not be attended to unless they are looked after. 10.119. Do you know anything of the condition of orphans in the town? — I know some little of them. The attention of the Commission should be turned to their condition. At one jieriod more attention Avas paid to their support than to their supeiintendence. 1 know instances of oi-jihans being put into the hands of those who ought not to have the charge of children. They are sent now generally to the country, where they are better looked after. At the age of fourteen they are thrown off" by the guardians of the poor, and this at the most dangerous period of their life. There is no attention (except it may be by pri- vate charitable persons) to see those orphans settled in the world, and thus too many of them go Mrong. When I was a magistrate, I discovered repeatedly that parties before me had been parisli orphans, and whose misconduct, I concluded, was owing to neglect in their education. If anything could be done to keep the parish orphans under the superintendence of the kirk-sessions till they were settled in the world, it would be a most important benefit to the community. 10.120. How would you propose to secure that? — The remedy would be an asylum where POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 551 parish orjihans ghoiilil be placed under the superintendence of proper persons, where their education, and morals, and church-going habits should be attended to ; and, afterwards, they would be much more easily disposed of. The way in which they are now brought up is frequently the reason of masters refusing to take them. In many cases shipmasters will not take children from the town into their vessels, — they rather take them from the country. My brother and myself at one time thought of setting on foot such an institution, we were so much impressed with the necessity of looking after the orphans. 10,12L Would you confine it to orphans, or extend it to the children of widows? — That would be far beyond our means. Orjihans coidd be more cheaply kept in an establishment of this kind than boarded out, particulai-ly if proper matrons, selected from the paupers, were provided. 10.122. In regard to the allowance being inadequate, is there any remedy you would suggest as to increasing the funds ? — I would propose to increase them. 10.123. But supposing the administrators were unwilling to increase them, how would you remedy that ? — I see no remedy. 10.124. Should there be an appeal from the decision of the administrators to any other body ? — I think it would be a useful thing. One or two decisions would fix the law afterwards. 10.125. There is an appeal now to the Court of Session — would it be advisable to give an appeal to any other body in addition to the court, or woidd you have it exclusively in the Court of Session ? — If there was a general board to which such cases could be referred, they would be much better attended to than by such a body as the Court of Session. 10.126. Is there any legal judge in whom you thuik the power might be lodged? — The sheriff would be a competent party. 10.127. Woidd there be no danger in some of the sheriflfs introducing extravagant allow- ances ? — There would be irregular decisions. It would be better to have it in a body that coidd be refeiTcd to by all parties. 10.128. What should be the nature of such a board ? — It might be constituted as the prison board. 10.129. Would It be desirable to have the allowances uniform all over Scotland, in towns ? — They should be uniform in towns ; but there shoidd be a distinction between town and country parishes. 10.130. Shoidd they be unifonn in parishes ? — There should be a similar allowance in country parishes. Each case in country parishes is better known, and better looked after. There should be a small assessment in coimtry parishes. 10.131. But the assessment being smaller, should it be uniform in rural parishes? — ^Yes. 10.132. Does not the mode of living In the highlands and lowlands vary in expense? — Yes. 10.133. Would a central board be able to fix the allowance in regard to all circumstances ? — There would be no difficulty in that at all. 10.134. Have you had anything to do with the administration of the relief fimd for the unemjiloycd ? — I was a principal mover In the matter ; but I have taken very little Interest in it. I was chairman of the committee, and superintended the collections. 10.135. Would it be desirable to alter what Is deemed to be the present law respecting able-bodied persons ? — It would be dangerous to give able-bodied persons a claim on the funds. When distress is local, temporary, or partial, it would be better managed by volun- tary contributions than by any other mode. . If the distress were universal, of long continu- ance, and beyond private charity, there shoidd be a power in some body to Inijiose an additional assessment for that special occasion. 10.136. In what body would you A'est the power? — There are various bodies, such as commissioners of sujiply, and magistrates in burghs, In whom the power might be vested. 10.137. ^Vhicli body would you prefer? — I think the magistrates, and superintending committee ; but probably It might be as well, as they are Interested, to have It In another body — the commissioners of supply. 10.138. In regard to the allowances, would you raise them to all parties, whether of good or bad character ? — Those of bad character should get their allowances in some other shape than at present. If you gave them more money. It would be abused. Thei'e ought to be a separate establishment for those people who are unable to manage the allowance given to them. 10.139. What kind of establishment ? — A workhouse. 10.140. What class of persons woidd you admit into it? — Those whose habits ate so gross, that they are unfit to do anything for themselves. It would be against the feelings of the people of Scotland to send widows with children to a workhouse ; but there is a nume- rous class — old men and old women — who are very wretched, and who would be better in a workhouse than anywhere else. 10.141. You would propose a workhouse for old and impotent people, who have no friends to assist them, and for other ]iartics who would misuse their allowance, and likewise a sepa- rate establishment for the training of oi-jihan children ? — Yes. 10.142. Woidd it be desu-able to alter the kw of settlement? — If there is to be any change of the present sj^stem, it woidd be indispensably necessary to extend the period of settlement. Three years is too short a period. They come from Ireland, and vegetate for a few years here, on purpose to get the paltry allowance. 10.143. What period would you propose ? — Not less than seven years. 10.144. Do you object to the principle of residence as conferring a settlement? — I do not. If the community is benefited by the labour of a person for a number of years It is proper that they should become chargeable with his maintenance A\hen unfit for work. Examinations. GreexoCK. Mr A. Fairrie. 27 April 1843. 552 MINUTES OF E\TDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exsmiiiafioiis. 10,145. Would yoii vest in any body a discretionary power to grant relief to abJo-bodied i HKKNoc K. persons wlien out of employment ? — My notion is to give able-bodied poi-sons no claim to Mr A. Fairrie. assistance at all from the poors' fund. 27 Aj)i-il i8-4:i. 10,14G. Is there not considerable distress existing before subscriptions are raised for their relief? — There naturally must be ; but the distress commences with those who are always in distress from their own bad habits. The more respectable workpeople have always some- thing to draw upon. In all previous cases that came under my knowledge the respectable class of labourei's had something to draw upon that got them over the difficulty ; but not so at present. 10.147. Is it desirable to allow begging? — If they are not sufficiently maintained they must beg. 10.148. Is it desirable to prohibit able-bodied persons from bogging ? — -I think so ; for this reason, that the able-bodied persons now begging, are very small in number, compared with the number in distress ; and because a great many of those begging are known to me to be of bad character, and improper persons to be assisted in any way. 10.149. Does it not appear to you that there is difficulty in prohibiting able-bodied per- sons from begging, without, in some measm-e, taking notice of them as objects of relief? — There has been no difficulty found respecting that hitherto. 10.150. Is begging prohibited in Greenock ? — Not at all. 10.151. (J/r Robertson.) — You stated that you had not visited the dwellings of the poor officially as elder or deacon ? — I have not. 10.152. From the limited observations you have made, have you had occasion to compare the situation of a pauper of decent character with that of one of intemperate and improvident habits,-^.I mean as to furniture and such like ? — I have on many occasions, dm-iiig the time of the cholera, and during the time of a flood, vis^ited the east district. I visited many houses in Cartsdyke, and found the most wretched class of our labourers in a situation simi- lar to that of paupers. 10.153. Have you had occasion to compare the situation of decent persons enjoying an allowance from the parochial fund, with the situation of jiersons enjoying an equal allowance who are of an opposite character ; and have you compared the houses of these sets of indivi- duals in regard to the comfort appearing in their domiciles ? — From all that I have seen, I would say at once, that, from the appearance of a house, you coidd tell whether the parties were of good or bad character. 10.154. Where parties are of good character have you foimd in ordinary times any cases of extreme destitution among them ? — Yes, I have found many wretched cases among those enjoying parochial relief, — many cases of decent and respectable widows with families. 10.155. Is it not the fact that parochial relief is supplemented by private chai-Ity ? — Yes, in some cases ; but in others less Is done In that way. 10.156. You stated that for extraordinary periods of distress you woidd wish a power to bo vested In some body of levying an assessment ; but in other oases you conceive that vo- luntary aid might meet the difficulty ? — Yes. 10.157. Even though this power of levying an assessment were discretionary when a pe- riod of distress arose, would not the parties sutfeiing distress got clamorous for the exercise of the power ? — Not unless the distress was very great. 10.158. If they were dissatisfied with the private subscriptions made for them, might not the fact of their knowledge that a power of assessing was vested In certain parties, and that these parties did not choose to put that power in operation, — exert a more irritating influ- ence on the distressed parties, and render them less easy to be dealt with than if no such l)ower of assessment existed ? — 'I should not think so. Any feeling of that kind would be useful in directing the attention of the community to their wants ; and I should prefer that the body who had the power of levying should not be In the town. 10.159. Vi^aa" the relief given generally received with gratitude ? — It was, generally Bpeaking. 10.160. Did they not threaten to take steps for what they thought to be their right ? — Some took the opinion of counsel. They made their a])plication to various bodies, to the elders, and sessions, and the magistrates, and it was referred to a general meeting. After being refused, they took the opinion of counsel ; and the answer was that they could not claim on the poor's funds ; but their conduct has been most ^iroper and decorous on every occasion. 10.161. You would not fear, from the existence of such a power to assess, a pernicious eflTect on the general character of the working classes? — I would not fear that in the least. 10.162. (Mr Ih'ummond.y—'llaxe you anything else to suggest In regard to the poor law? — I think I have gone over the most Important points that occur to me, — a more liberal allow- ance — a more early attention to widows, — not to bo kept as long off' the fund as possible, but rather to take them on at once in a temporary way ; — and more attention to orphans. These, I think, are the most important matters connected with the subject. [Mr Fairrie then handed in a comparative statement relative to Greenock Infirmary -J— POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 553 COMPARATIVE STATEMENT, Examinations. Greenock. KECEIPTa Hi No .of Tenr eiuling in AnnunI Church Donntlon* a Dosrd of Put. I,d ApMtrft. Feen. Total Total Expenditure. Patieiiu. Costof«.ich Patieut. III Yenr ending tn May SuljM^riprions. Collectiuiu. Jjegttcles, rn.iiiWurkmcn asui l*umlri««. BccvipU. Ferer. Surg. S.^" 4 '■ d. £ S. (/. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. (/. 1810 19 14 485 17 6 62 6 4 567 17 9 146 13 7 11 40 2 17 8 — » 1811 }fl9 59 8 24 17 5 104 4 5 451 13 10 30 6:- 4 11 3 — ». 1812 183 5 6 132"To 3 156 14 S3 11 4 526 1 1 265 12 3 9 70 3 7 3 caklng; but after deducting expenses of mounting, draw-boys, light, &c. &c., the average Is not above 7s. or 8s. weekly, taking It over head, good and bad. A great proportion of the poor weavers not employed are those who work at the fancy trade, — that Is the staple of Paisley. There is a great error prevailing in regard to our fancy trade. The fancy trade of Paisley is com- monly considered to be nothing but shawls ; now, almost everything that a lady can wear is comprehended under the fancy trade ; and so far from wishing to limit that trade, or inter- fering with it, I consider it to be the badge of ci\ilIzation, and inseparable from an advanced state of society. 10.340. I do not know that that Is within our province? — ^I wanted to state this to Mr Wallace and others, but they would not hear me ; however, valeat (juanhim. I would farther say, that to pension the unem])loyed is an evil. I dread the idea of recommending, an indiscriminate pension for able-bodied men ; but I would implore you to get the restric- tion laws on food, find on everything else, done away with, and Paisley will yet do welL This is the result of observations not of yesterday ; and every man that I have spoken to on tlie subject, excej)ting partizans, are of the same opinion. You will find my view very much corroborated by liberal merchants and manufacturers in Paisley. 10.341. {Mr Twuleton.) — You do not think it desirable to have a provision for the im- employed able-bodied ? — Not, generally speaking ; but at the same time, in the existing state of society, able-bodied men have been thrown into destitution ; and it becomes absolutely necessary tjiat we should get freedom from restriction on trade and food, or you must pension them. 10.342. You were speaking of a national assessment for local management, do vou not think that a local management would be rather more liberal than prudent if they had the POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 565 money of others to spend ? — Their own money would be inchided. The actual distributors of the money sire persons who, although they pay, pay but a small proportion ; but so far am I from feeling that the actual distributors are disposed to help themselves too liberally, it is all the other way. They are by far too keen to save the pockets of the paymasters. When I say a local management, I do not mean to say that any alteration should be made. It is a great principle that the payers should have the superintendence, or, at least, the power of control ; and it would be better that they exerted it more. The great evil with us is, that they do not visit the poor, — that is a great evil, and it does not affect Paisley exclusively. 10,343. Supposing there is no provision for able-bodied men, would it be, in your opinion, possible to abolish assessments, and provide the poor solely from collections at the church doors ? — Nothing of the kind. In towns such as Paisley, generally speaking, — Paisley espe- cially, the idea of abolishing the assessment is altogether untenable. I cannot entertain it for a sin'de moment. If things are to remain as they are, you must pay the able-bodied men from the assessment, because they cannot live as decent men ought to do ; and, in proof of that, there is a large body of respectable operatives dunning us daily for means to emigrate. I have said to them, " Are you not all employed ?"— " Yes." " What makes you think of going away ?' " We dread the winter." They have been left pei-fectly bare. Their clothes are pawned, and anything they can make goes to redeem the things they have pawned. If they are not redeemed before winter, they will be as they were last winter, in the most distressing state. Had they no drawbacks, — no pawns to redeem, no rent to pay, no children to educate, no delicate wives to provide necessaries for, they might live ; but with these, accompanied by a long period of periodical depression, they are incapable of living as working classes in the conmiimity ought to live, or as they did live in my remembrance. I beg to mention another fact. I am much in the way of attending the funerals of the working classes ; there is no minister more anxious to attend every funeral than I am. I always go, because it gives me an opportunity to come in contact with persons in humble life in times of affliction. It has a soothing effect. I have observed, in twenty-five years, a wonderful difference in the clothes of the working classes, and in the numbers that attend funerals. Formerly large bodies of weavers, in cases of fimenils, would leave their work, dress themselves like gentle- men, in black, and attend the funerals of their deceased acquaintances ; but not one for four now attend that used to attend. I have put the question. Why is this ? — The answ-er has been, that their clothes were worn out; or, if they have decent clothes, that they are in pawn and they cannot relieve them. .Sometimes, when they are in employment, I have heard the answer, that time was precious, and they coidd not spare it. This is an evil much to be dejirecated. If anything could be done to relieve it, it would be most desirable. It is degrading to make such men paupers. Let government take a liberal view of the commer- cial pohcy of this country, and try to reform it at home and abroad, and the condition of the working classes will come to be what it has been. Now, in regard to friendly societies : previously to 1810 there were twenty in Paisley, but most of them were on a bad principle, and were dissolved. From that period they have been constructed on rather a better prin- ciple ; and a few years ago there were fourty-four in the town. At present there are nomi- nally thirty-six ; but of these more than one-half may be either said to be dissolved, or in a state of bankruptcy, in consequence of many of the members being unable to pay up their dues ; and many of the societies are obliged to suspend their standing laws to enable honest men to pay up. I would entreat this Commission to recommend these societies strongly. I do not know any class of institutions that tends to bind more the working classes in one healthful community than friendly societies. They are tnUy friendly societies. They make provision for sickness and death. We want a class of them that will provide not only for members, but for widows after their husbands' death. This has not been done yet by the friendly societies. It is done by insurance offices ; but these are considered as having to do with a higher class than the working classes, which I think is erroneous. Of all things, let these societies be increased. There is no better way of keeping the labouring classes off the poor's funds in times of sickness, along with the provident banks. But very few of the weavers in Paisley have had it in their power to pay money into the savings' banks. There is a little prejudice against savings' banks, — there is the idea that the manufacturers and merchants, havinsr the exclusive mdnairement and control of the savinjis' banks, have at all times the • • .11 .11 opportunity of finding how much money a Avorkman has in the bank, and that they wnl not readily raise the wages when they know that they have money lodged in them. The idea is erroneous. The manufacturers and merchants never look into such a thing. The books arc ke[)t hid from all except tlie manager ; and yet it is not easy to banish such an impression from the minds of the working classes. 10,344. Would it be desirable to alter the law of settlement ? — In regard to this, I would eay distinctly, that thi-ee years is too short a period. I think that ten, or at all events seven, Examinations. Paislby. Rev. Dr Bums. 2a April 1843; years, would be great nnprovement, -I do not care which. Hev. John Macnaughtan, Examined : — 10,34,5. (Lord Melville.) — You are minister of the High Church in Paisley? — ^Yes. 10,34(5. How long have you been so ? — Nearly eleven years. 10,347. Is there a separate kirk-session attached to yoiu" church ? — There is, to do the business purely of a kirk-session. Mr Macnanghtan. 566 anNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Paisley. Mr Macnaughtan. 2y A|>ril 1843. 10,3-18. Have ynu occasion to visit tlie dwclliugs of the poor, ami to know their condi- tion ? — Yes, as a minister and as a member of the genersil session of Paisley. We have the charge of tlie poor. The ministers and elders constitute the general session. 10,34i>. The collections of tlie tliree churches are under the management of that body ?— Yes, they are put into one genei'al fund, under tlie charge of the general session, and are dis- tributed in a particidar way. I have here a note of the collections, and of their distribution. 10,3.50. These funds are chiefly given to the occasional poor ? — No, it m.iy be right for you to kyow tliat the management of the poor here is quite peculiar to Paisley, so far as I know. In 1828, the bm-den of taking care of the poor was felt to be so opi)ressive by the elders, that they refused to carry it on any longer. An agreement was made with the directors of the hospit;d, to tliis eflx3ct, tliat if tliey would give up to the elders of the churches, tlie funds collected at the chiu-ch doors, and the mortcloth money, we would relieve all the poor members of the church ; and in that case the assessment woidd be left for those who did not belong to the Establislied church. Accordingly, tlie collections now go to the nuiintenance of the poor members of the clmrch, and to the payment of ordinary ecclesiastical expeuces, such as session-clerk's fees, officer's, &c. The answer as to whether money is paid to the occasional poor, is this : — There aa"e payments to the regular poor, 415/. 8s. lOd. ; to the occasional {K)or, 37/. 19s., which shows oidy a small portion to the occasional poor. To the poor on the nursing list, 51Z. 3s. 4d, 10.351. Are you satisfied with tlie provision made for the poor ? — Certainly not, — 1 think it a gi-eat deal too small. 10.352. Do you think there would be no risk of abuse, if the allowance were considerably increased ? — If you mean by those under our charge, I do not think there would be the least risk of abuse. We would increase it if we had the means. 10.353. Has there been a projwsal made to raise the assessment ? — That question will fall to be answered better by the parties belonging to the hospital. We have no connexion with the disbm'sement under the charge of the hospital. The present arrangement is a mere con- ventional one in regard to the hospital and kirk-session, and may be broken up a» soon as we find om- funds not able to carry it on. It may be right to mention, that besides the col- lections at the church doors, there is a sum given annually to poor members in the shape of gift, amounting nearly to 100/. 10.354. How is it raised ? — By an extraordinary collection always, 10.355. You have had opportiuiities of visiting the dweUings of the poor generally ? — Yes. 10,35(5. In regard to those in receipt of relief from the town's hospital, arc their allow- ances adequate ? — Certainly not. In regard to the abuse of their allowances, however, I can- not say the same thing of them that I can say for the poor on the session roll, because we have not the same guarantee for the religious character of those on the hospital roU ; but the allowance is miserable, and many of them cannot live without begging, 10.357. {Mr Twisleton.) — What is the allowance of the town's hospital to an old man past work, not bed-ridden ? — I can only speak from vague I'ecoUection. I think it is somewhere about Is. a week. 10.358. What would be a fair provision for an old man past work, and not bed-ridden ? — I should not fancy less than 2s. 6d. a week, on this principle, that an old man cannot find a place to live in under Gd. a week, — leaving only 2s. for actual supjiort. 10.359. What is the rate of allowance to a widow with four children under ten yeara of age ? — I have never looked specifically into their list. In point of fact, it is not made public as far as I know. We meet with persons complaining of it. We have complaints from those on the lios[)ital fund, asking us to interfere to get something more for them. I have fre- quently met with most distressing cases, arising from the Inadequacy of the allowance. 10.360. Is there. In Paisley, any begging from house to house? — There is not much public, begging from house to house, except on Saturday. A good many do go to certain houses, and receive small sums ; but there Is not much street begging, — the police will not allow It. 10.361. Then street begging Is strictly prohibited ? — Yes. I do not know that the police have orders as in other towns, but we do not meet with much of It. 10.362. In regard to those begging, do they go to jKirticular houses, and receive an allow- .ance ? — A good many go from door to door. 10.363. Has that a good influence on their character or the reverse ?— The reverse. I liave not the least doubt that pubhc begging tends to injure the morals, ."ind lower the intel- lectual character ; its effects are more injurious to society than a larger allowance would be with the risk of occasional abuse. 10.364. How would you guard against abuse if the allowance were increased, in regard to the town's hospital ? — I do not know of any specific way, except by giving the parties who have charge of the hospital funds the power of diminishing it, or giving it in the shape of pro- visions. I have not the least doubt but there are persons who will abuse their allowance, how- ever small it is. Soldiers only on twopence a day often get drunk. 10.365. In regard to women of improper habits, what do you think ought to be done ? — It Is desirable that there should be some place into which persons who abuse public charity would be taken and kept, so that they could not abuse what was allowed them. At the same time, the system of workliouses In which to congregate the poor, is not congenial to the spirit of the people of Scotland, nor to the interests of society ; but there ought to be a place for old persons who have no friends, and jiersons who would abuse the allowance. 10.366. AA^ould you give a power of appeal from the heritors and town's hospital? — That would depend on the constitution of the body appointed to take charge of the poor. If you mean the present antingement by which the court is .appointed by the rate-payers; 1 think t'oni it there ought to be some power of appeal. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 5^1 giver ?- 10.367. "VMiere would you vest it? — In some mixed board, consisting partly of persons connected with the different churches. 10.368. Supposing the constitution of the board to be purely individuals elected by the rate-payers? — There should be an independent board. 10.369. Do you regard the power of appeal in itself as an evil, so that, if possible, to avoid it, it would be desirable not to have such a board ? — It Avould be desirable not to have it, if it could be avoided, because it would occasion litigation. But if there is to be a board it ought to be of such a nature, that all could get convenient access to it, and have confidence . in it. 10.370. "VVoidd it have a tendency to place the receiver in a less friendly state towards the o ; the advantage of a power of appeal is this, that in the event of persons that they have been aggrieved, they have an opportunity of bringing their case to an issue. If the country at large comes to have confidence in a board, and the people them- selves come to have confidence in it, I should not fancy that, after a little time, the right of appeal would be very much exercised. 10.371. Do you find orjjhaus well treated by the directors of the town's hospital ? — We cannot say, because they are sent out of town. Some are sent to Hamilton, some to Kirkin- tilloch, and so forth. We do not know what becomes of them — we never have an oppor- tunity of seeing them. But they are much better in the country than kept in the hospital ; the country is more conducive to their health and their morals. 10.372. {Mr CampbeU.)'~-llow are the sessional orphans provided for ? — By a sum of money given by the elders to some family, or some relation to take charge of them. 10.373. {Mr Twisleton.) — Are they generally looked after? — Yes, they are. When this, arrangepient was made with the town's hospital, we only undertook the support of the aged poor. All the children on the nursing list wei'e taken charge of by the town's hospital; but four years ago when the collections were larger, we resolved to take charge of the orphans and children on the nursing list, and since that time we have had them under our care. In consequence of the pressure of the times, the collections have fallen off very much, and I believe we shall not be able to cairy out that aiTungement. 10.374. In regard to the able-bodied unemployed, is it desirable that any provision should be made for them ? — ^What the law is on that point is a matter of doubt and difficulty at this moment. 10.375. Taking it as practically administered ? — I think there are circumstances some- times occurring in a great mercantile community in which it is desirable to give able-bodied persons aid ; but it is certain that in a town like Paisley it is utterly impossible by any assess- ment to support the able-bodied in times of distress. The whole property of Paisley could not have supported them during the recent depression. There ought to be some provision for giving them temporaiy relief in times of difficulty and distress ; but I would not recom- mend it as part of the general administration of the poor laws. The question, however, is, what is to be done with them at a time of starvation ? They cannot be allowed to starve. When they cannot find work, the law of God and man demands that some support should be made for them. But, on the other hand, it is impossible to provide for them under any assessment that can be made for them by any property in Paisley. In what way you are to meet the wants of the able-bodied without bringing in the principle of supporting all the able-bodied when out of work, is a problem I do not see my way clearly through. 10.376. Have you no definite suggestion to make on it? — No. 10.377. In regard to the law of settlement? — Most decidedly it should be greatly altered. The period ought to be ten years, or make the law the place of the person's birth. The latter I think more desirable, although it is hable to objection. The present period is by far too short and indefinite. I should think ten years a fiiir time ; and in the event of indi- viduals not being able to prove ten years, they should go back to the place of their birth. You can easily conceive a fluctuating and shifting population, and there may be persons ten years in the country who have not been ten years in one place. 10.378. Have 30U observed that there is any difiiculty in getting paupers on the roU of the town's hospital ? — Yes. 10.379. What is the usual practice ? — To defer the matter tiU there is a meeting of the town's hospital, and after that to make inquiry. The difficulty arises not so much from un- willingness to give relief, they are compelled to be tardy from want of funds. If the person cannot make out a settlement, he will be relieved, and recourse is had on the parish to which he belongs. 10.380. Take the case of a destitute Irishman who has not a settlement ?— He would not be received as a pauper on the town's hospital, but would get temporary aid. In eases of great destitution the directors can exercise that power. 10.381. Would they give temporary relief to such persons to as great an amount as they would give occasional relief to a settled pauper ? — I do not know wliat principle guides them in that. I beheve it depends on the will of the overseer at the time being. He exercises his own discretion. Some of the overseers are more willing to rcUeve than others, accord- ing to the natural disposition of the men. 10.382. {Mr Bobertson.) — You stated that in 1828, an arrangement had been made between the kirk-session and town's hospital, that you should take charge of your own poor, meaning the impotent and aged communicants ? — Yes. 10.383. And you stated that four years ago you had enlarged your charge by agreeing to take the management of the or}:)han poor ? — ^Yes ; what is called the nursing list. Examinations. Paisiey. Mr Macnaughtan. 20 April 1843. 10,384. "What was the cause of that change- -was it pressed on you ? — No, it was our own firee wilL We felt that the principle which constrained us in 1828 to support our com- 5«8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kiaminations. Paisley. Mr Macnaughtan. 29 April 1843. municants, equally bound us to support their children, and to share with them the funds at our disposal ; to meet the difficulties of the aged and impotent, we therefore took the charge of the children, and made that statement to the town's hospital, which they received very gladly. 10.385. Did you conceive that, in those prosperous times, you were able adequately to provide for your own poor ? — Not to the extent wished ; but, according to the system adopted, we found that we were able to do something for the children, as well as the parents. 10.386. There must be some proportion in the parish between the amount by the town's hospital and the ku-k-session? — There is always an assimilating in regard to the amount of relief between these two sources. 10.387. You stated that the poor in the town's hospital were in the habit of begging, especially on the Saturdays ? — Some of them. 10.388. Docs that remark apply to the sessional poor ? — To very few of them. 10.389. Do they call from door to door, or call ou certain individuals to whom they are known ? — A few of them call on certain individuals to whom they ai'e known, and some few call from door to door. 10.390. In visiting the houses of the sessional poor, what do you find to be thoir condition in point of comfort ? — You cannot go into their houses without finding that they are of a more elevated class than the general class of the poor. Their houses are better furnished ; they are less given to pawning ; and they have means of relief which the ordinaiy poor have not. They are visited by parties connected with the congregations, and they occasionally receive clothing. In this way, their allowance is supplemented. 10.391. Do you think that this pi-oduces a good effect upon them? — Yes; it brings them into contact with their bi'ethren of the church, and creates a good feeling in them towards the elders and minister. 10.392. You think that there should be an enlargement of the allowance ? — That there is a necessity for an enlargement of the allowance is plain from the fact that we are constantly entreating our people to give larger collections, in order that we may be able to give more to tlie poor. I do not mean to say that, A^■ith plication ? 8. Have you ever received any paro- chial I'elief before ? If so, state when, where, and how much you re- ceived. 9. What place or places of worship have you attended during your residence in this parish ? If you are a coniniuni- cant in any congregation, produce a ceilificate from your minister, stating how long you have been so, and your character. 10. What do you now work at, and how have you been hitherto employed and supported ? 11. What is the amount of your present earnings per week ? 12. If married, state here your husband's, or wife's, name and connexions. 13. If your husband, or wife, is dead, state when and where he or she died. 14. If you have children, state their names, ages, occupations, and where they reside. 15. \Vhat is the income of those residing in the family ? 16. Is there .any money belonging to you in any bank, or in the hands of any other person, or have you any pension or sujjply from any society or indivi- dual ? If so, state the amount and particulars. 17. Have you any relatives who do, might be expected to assist you. 18. Have you any heritable property, have you any expectations of succeed- ing to any heritable property ? If so, state the value and other particulars. 19. Are you in possession of any moveable property, furniture, or other efltects, or are any debts due to you ? If so, state here what they are. 20. If the directors find that they cannot grant you any outdoor montluy allow- ance, are you willing to give up all you have to the parish, and to become an inmate of the hospital ; and, when admitted, do you promise diligently to labour at such work as you may be able for, or as may be prescribed by the dii'cctors ? or or SOLEMN DECLARATION BY THE APPLICANT. I, the said _ ^ do hereby solemnly declare that the written answers above inserted to each of the foregoing printed questions arc all trae ; that I have kept back no part of the tnith, but have stated my whole circumstances, in the above answers, to the best of my knowledge and ability. Further, upon the directors either granting me an outdoor allowance, or admitting me into the hospital, I hereby obhge my- self and my heirs, should we ever be able, to refund and pay back the amount or value of whatever I may receive, or that may be expended for my support ; and further, in the event of my death, I hereby nominate and appoint the directors of the Paisley Town Hos- f)ital for the time being, or any two of them accepting to be my executors and universal egatories, but only to the eflTect of their being refimded of all sums and allowances advanced, or laid out by them for me, as aforesaid, and of any expenses that they may be put to in recovering the same. In witness whereof, I subscribe the two foregomg pages, with this POOR LAW INQUIRY CO]V»nSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 571 declaration, In presence of the witnesses after named, a^tid I dispense wjth all other formalities, Examinations "VYitnesa my hand. Paisley. ( The Applicant \ Signs here. Palslev day of 184 . "We certify that we were present, and saw 'the above named and designed appUcant agree to, and duly sign the above deola- ration, tliis day, in our presence. Witness our hands. !Two Witnesses Sign here, each adding his name and address. Paisley, day of 184 . W^e have examined the above designed apphcant, and certify that the forogohig statements are correct, so far as is known to us. Heritor. Overseer. Superintendent. Mr W. Mellig. 20 April 1843. Mr James S. Brown, Governor of To^vn's Hospital, Examined : — Mr J. S. Brown. 10,43(5. (Lord Melville.) — You are governor and superintendent of the town's hospital ? — I am governor of the hospital, and superintendent of the outdoor poor. 10.437. Do you reside in the hospital ? — No ; but I attend there every day. 10.438. Under what superintendence is the hospital separate from that of the outdoor poor ? — The hospital is under the same government as that class of the outdoor poor which belongs to the hospital. 10.439. Is it a committee of management ? — Yes. Eighteen persons are appointed from the different districts of the town. The town is divided into nine districts, and two over- seers and directors are appointed from each. Then other three are appointed by the town- Council, being members of the town-council, and an additional three from the kirk-session, making in all twenty-four members of the board. 10.440. They also have the charge of the outdoor poor ? — They have the entire charge of the outdoor poor belonging to the hospital. 10.441. Who appoint the eighteen ? — The magistrates and town-council, — they appoint two from each district. The whole committee is appointed by the town-council, with the exception of the three members from the kirk-session. 10.442. The magistrates and town-council appoint twenty-one out of the twenty-four ? — Yes. 10.443. When was the establishment first opened for the reception of the poor ? — In 1752. 10.444. Have you any return of the average number of inmates ? — Yes. We had 207 males and females for the year ending May 1842. 10.445. Is that as many as it will contain ? — No. Previously to 1838, children were ad- mitted and maintained, besides aged people, lunatics, and impotent people. Nearly a third part of the inmates of the hospital then consisted of young children, from infancy up to eleven or twelve years of age. In 1838, we boarded the children out, and since then we have had no children in the house, except for a short period, while we are finding proper nurses for them in the country. 10,44(5. And that has enabled you to take in a larger number of grown-up persons? — Yes ; but not of course to the same extent. Our average number for five years previous to 1838 was 248 ; since that it is somewhere about 200. 10.447. You have an established dietary as to the amount of food ? — Yes. 10.448. Have you a printed statement of it ? — No ; but I can tell the dietary. Break- fast consists of oatmeal made into porridge ; the average allowance to each inmate of oat- meal is 4| ounces ; buttermilk | of an English pint. Dinner, on Friday, Saturday, Sun- day, Monday, and Tuesday, barley broth, made of barley, ox heads, and marrow bones, — 25 lbs. of ox heads and marrow bones for the whole ; barley 3 oz. to each person, with oat cakes or potatoes. On Friday and Sabbath they have oat cake, consisting of 6 oz. of oatmeal. Instead of oat cakes, they have, on Saturday, Monday and Tuesday, potatoes, — average quantity a pound and a half. Dinner, Wednesday, potato soup, three English pints, made of the same materials, ox heads and marrow bones, and 6 oz. of wheaten bread. Thursday, potatoes and herrings, with 6 oz. of oat cakes. Supper same as breakfast. 10.449. {Mr Twisleton.) — What is the average cost of maintenance per head? — For the year ending May 1842, the average weekly cost for each inmate was as follows, viz., — for food. Is. 7|d. ; clothing, 4d. ; fuel, &c., .3d. ; repairs, utensils, and a variety of incidental expenses, 6|d. ; expenses of management, 4|d- ; making in all 3s. l^J^d. per week per head. 10.450. For the total expense of everything ? — Yes. It has been a larger expenditure 572 mXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniinations. than formerly, in consequence of one of the items of expenses, that of repairs, being greater. Paisley We had a good many improvements in the building in the course of 1842, which increased ,. T c. „ Jt 6' d. This year it will not be one-fourth part of it ; the provisions also being cheaper Mr J. S. Biown. ., • * .,,•', ^i j-i. r > i- or 20 April 1843. ^"'^ year, Will lessen the expenditure. 10.451. As to the outdoor poor, what means do you take for ascertaining their pre- cise circumstances, — are they inspected? — When a person applies for relief, it is to the overseer of the locality in which he resides. The overseer sends the case to the superin- tendent, and it becomes his duty to investigate as to the poverty of the applicant, and the claim he has for relief on the parish, which he does with the assistance of the overseer. 10.452. (Jjord Melville.) — In fact every case comes under your superintendence ? — Yes, under my notice. 10.453. Have you reason to suppose that imposition is practised in regard to residence or other circumstances ? — We have known that occasionally done ; but the proof must be adduced in each case, and of course imposture is always discovered. 10.454. We understand that the persons relieved by the to^vn's hospital are persons not in communion with the Established church ? — None are in communion with the church with the exception of the disabled class, who are proper objects for admission to the hospital. Of the inmates who are able to go out of doors, I should think a sixth part may belong to the church. But none of our outdoor poor are in connexion with the Established church. 10.455. Have you divine service in the hospital ? — We have family worship morning and evening. 10.456. You admit none on your regular roll, except those who have a legal claim ? — None, except parties M'ho may be in such a state that they cannot be removed, which frequently takes place. While in that state they are chargeable on our fund. Two of the hospital inmates are in these circumstances, one from Ireland, and another from England. The person from England has been here only for two or three weeks. The person from Ireland is eighty years of age, and has not been here above one year at most ; but both these parties are in such a state that we cannot remove them ; and as to having any claim against Ireland, we never, in any cases, succeeded in obtaining our expenses ; and in England we have often had difficulty in ascertaining the parishes to which the parties belong. 10.457. You are aware of the amount of allowance given to each individual? — Yes. 10.458. Does it appear to you that the amount is sufficient for their sustentation ?— It is not sufficient for their sustentation in most outdoor cases. At the same time, where a per- son is anxious for admission to the hospital, it is rarely, if ever, denied ; and we find that the hospital is a considerable test of the real destitution of the pauper. 10.459. Supposing your funds were more ample, would it, in your estimation, be ad- visable or expedient to increase the allowance ? — I think it would ; but I do not think that as to the hospital inmates, either their own or the public interest would be promoted by making their circumstances better. To the outdoor poor, however, the amount of allow- ance ought to be increased, if the funds allowed it. 10,4()0. You conceive, then, that the allowance is not sufficient? — It is not sufficient, par- ticularly as they cannot obtain adequate employment. 10,4()1. But suppose they are not able to work ? — If they are altogether unable to work we either give them an outdoor aliment equal to what is necessary to maintain them, or we offer them the house. If they are wholly disabled, and anxious to get into the house, they are at once admitted. 10,4(52. Suppose a widow with three children unable to work, how is she and her chil- dren provided for? — This is a class of poor worse provided for than any other. They cannot come into the hospital ; and the allowance is far from being adequate to maintain the children. 10,4()3. Have you reason to know the amount of allowance in the Abbey parish ? — I am not particularly acquainted in regard to the Abbey parish, but I believe the allowance there for widows with children is above ours. 10,464. Have you reason to believe that yours is on a par with the allowance in other towns ? — Pretty much on a par with other towns. 10,4()5. In admitting persons on the roll, you do not make any distinction as to country or religion, provided the parties have a legal settlement ? — No distinction. 10.466. A large proportion of your poor are Roman Catholics ? — A considerable pro- portion. 10.467. Can you give a statement of the birth-place of the poor on your roll ? — I have been examining the present state of our roll in regard to that and other points, and although 1 have not got it completed, I find the proportion much the same as it was in July 1840, when I prepared an abstract table on this subject. 10.468. You can furnish us with a copy of that abstract ? — I shall do so. — [See appended.] 10.469. What is the total number on the roll now ? — I cannot say how many at this pre- sent moment ; but in June 1842 the number was 729 males and females. 10.470. Exclusive of those who receive occasional relief? — Yes. 10.471. Is that a larger or a smaller number than the previous year? — It is a larger number than ever was on the funds of the hospital. The previous year there were on the roll G80, before that 645, and so on back to 1830, when the poor were 548. 10.472. Is that inclusive or exclusive of the hospital inmates? — Inclusive. All are sup- ported from the same means. 10.473. Who judges of the amount of the assessment ? — A board appointed by the town- council for the special purpose of allocating the assessments, called stent-masters. 10.474. But they do not judge of the total amount to be levied ? — No ; that is done by POOR LAAV INQUIRY COJ^CMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 573 the directors of the hospital. Previously to retiring from office, being the parties who know best what is likely to be required for the succeeding year, they transmit an annual statement of the past year's expenditure, along with a recommendation as to what ought to be the assessment for the next year. 10.475. Are the directors, or any portion of them, changed every year.? — There is a portion of them changed every year ; but there is no fixed rule. We have had a change more or less every year ; at one time a greater number, at another time a smaller. 10.476. Are you in frequent communication with the kirk-sessions as to their poor ? — Not very often. 10.477. You take care that none of the poor receive relief from both funds? — We do, — there is no such thing as that. The persons who are on the session funds, generally speak- ing, are very respectable characters. Their being in communion with the church is a proof of that ; and they are very unlikely to attempt any imposition on us. I cannot say I ever knew an instance of such imposition. 10.478. {Mr Twideton.) — Can you give us an abstract statement of the income and ex- penditure ? — I have one here which I can give in. Examinations. Paisley. Mr J. S. Brown. 29 April 1843. ABSTRACT STATEMENT of the INCOME and EXPENDITURE of the Town Hospital of Paisley, from 1st June 1841 to Ist June 1842. INCOME. To Assessment from 1st June 1841 till 1st June 1842, £3225 18 6^ Deduct unpaid, 1200 1 1 Commission on Collecting, Stationery and Incidentals, Arrears of Assessment for last year, Commission on Collecting, Prosecutions, Stamps, &c., £60 15 5 3 3 2025 17 H £12 33 9 4 7 6 63 18 5 415 5 10 45 16 10 Boarders in Hospital and Asylum, Aliment advanced to Paupers belonging to other Parishes, who are resident in Paisley, Workers in Hospital, ... House Rents, ... Dung Sold, Sundry Articles sold, Cash advanced by Bank, from 1st June 1841 till Ist June 1842, £1961 19 Oi 369 9 525 18 5i 92 19 5 140 17 2 7 8 21 14 9i 662 2 £3789 18 0^ EXPENDITURE. Indoor Poob. By Balance, Cash for Meal, 432 bolls, at 16s. 0|<1., ... Barley and Pease, 105 cwt. at 12s. 6d.,... Potatoes, 59 bolls, at 12s. 8d., Beef and Oxheads, 7556 lbs. at IJd., ... Herrings, 7 barrels, at 23s. 5d., Vegetables, Buttei-milk, Cheese, and Butter, Groceries, "Wheat Bread, 8884 lbs. at Ifd., Spirits and Wine, 36 gallons, at 9s. 6|d., Beer, 510 gallons, at Is. 3d., Water, Coals, 350 tons, at 7s. ll^d., ... Soap and Ashes, ... Gas and Candles, ... Repairs and Utensils, Clothing, Shoes and Leather, Stationery and Advertising, Chaff and Straw, ... Coffins and Graves, 27, at 48. ll^d.. £346 17 6 65 12 3 37 8 9 55 18 ^ 8 4 11 13 0* 105 3 6 77 15 8 65 3 6 17 4 3 31 10 9 18 139 6 2 31 2 9 18 6 6 216 18 lU 100 2 lo; 43 17 5| 33 15 2^ 9 8 8' 10 12 10 £13 12 3 Carry forward, £1436 3 £13 12 3 574 anNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE EJtaminations. Paisley. Mr J. S. Brown. 29 April 1843. Brought forward, Incidentals, Salaries, — Governor and Superintendent, Matron, Surgeon, Keeper of Asylum, ... House Servant, ... ... Barber, Preminms to Workers, ... £1430, ^ 7 8 10 80 30 20 25 39 8 6 10 15 8 8 £13 12 3 Outdoor Poor. Regular Monthly Poor, Occasional do. ... ... ... ... Nursing List, Clothing, ... Provisions, Education, Coffins and Graves, 243, at 48. lid., Glasgow Asylum for the Blind, and Eye Infirmary, £1180 13 468 12 193 15 75 12 11 18 13 15 60 10 17 General Expenditure. Interest, ... Law Expenses, £65 20 Cash in hand, 5 3 1 3 7 6 2 1667 7 9 2015 4 1 85 8 13 Hi £3789 18 OtV Paisley, Zd June 1842 — Examined and found correct. J. H. BROWN, Convener. ALEXANDER ROBERTSON, Treasurer. THOMAS EAGLEISM, Auditor. Debts owing hy Town Hospital on \st June 1842. To Greenlees' Fund, £200 Paisley Commercial Bank, ... ... ... ... 822 2 Sundries, ... ... ... ... ... ... 500 £1522 2 Stock and Debts due by Sundries. £1200 800 £250 10 20 By Arrears of Boarders in Lunatic Asylum, Clothing, Arrears of Assessment, Considered Irrecoverable, Balance against Hospital, £1522 2 From 1st June 1841 till 1st June 1842, the average number of indoor poor has been 207, dming which time there have occurred 109 admissions, 86 dismissions, and 27 deaths. 400 851 8 Inmates of Hospital and Asylum on \st June 1841. Males, Females, 96 110—206 Inmates of Hospital and Asylum on \st June 1842. IVIales, Females, 91 111—202 The average number of indoor poor from 1841 till Ist June 1842, has been 207. The gross indoor expenditure during that period has been 1667if. 78. 9d. ; being at the rate of al. Is. Id. per annum, or 3s. id. weekly for each inmate. The average number of the regidar monthly roll of outdoor poor, inclusive of the nursino- roll, has been 522 ; the expenditure on their account has been 1546/. lis. lOd., being at the annual rate of 2/. 198. 3d. for each person, or Is. l^d. weekly. The average number of regular poor of all classes during the past year has been 729. The gross amount of expenditure IncmTed for their maintenance has been 3299/. Is. 9d., being at the rate of 4Z. lOs. 6d. per annum for each pauper, or Is. 8Jd. weekly. The balance against hospital on 1st June 1841, was 245/. 13s. Id., at the present date it stands as above, 851/. 9s. 8d., showing a balance agaiast tlie hospital, aa compared with last year, of 605/. 16s. 7d. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 575 10.479. Of the inmates in the hospital how many are boarded there by the Abbey parish ? —I think there are seventeen or eighteen just now. 10.480. What is paid for their maintenance weekly ? — For those in the hospital, 3s. 2d. weekly ; for those in the asylum, 5s. 7d. 10.481. Is the town hospital in debt ?— 830^. in debt. 10.482. What has been the sum raised by assessment for the current year ending June 1842 ? — We have not made up our books yet ; but I believe I can say within 50/. what it will be, — it will amount to 2050/. from the ordinary assessment, and this year we have had a supplementary assessment in addition. 10.483. What has that been ? — It has not yet realized 400/. You may put down 450/. as likely to be realized. The arrears of last year have been collecting along with the ordinary assessment, and may amount to 450/. 10.484. Is that to be applied to defray debt ? — No. The arrears of last year are appro- priated to the support of the poor for the current year. We count the arrears of the previous year as making up the deficiency of this year. The assessment imposed for the current year is 3500/., — at least we asked that amount ; and we are likely to get out of it 2450/., or 2500/. at most, arrears and all. 10.485. How will you pay the debt on the hospital ? — This supplementary assessment has gone for that purpose. We went behind last year 600/. Our gross disbursement of the year ending May 1842, was 3877/. 7s. 3d. ; and our gross income was 3237/. 12s. l^d. from all sources. 10.486. The sum for expenditure is rather larger than is stated in this abstract ? — I dare say it is. 10.487. When you have an opportunity of revising your evidence you can correct it ? — Yes. 10.488. How do you expect that you will not get the assessment estimated for ? — The stent-masters in allocating the assessment have assessed the working people for a consider- able sum, perhaps 600/., which is never got. 10.489. How far do they go down ? — People who are supposed to have an income of 30/. are supposed to pay 3s. a year ; but for the last year, in consequence of the great distress, they were not able to pay that sum. Few of them pay, — practically they are exempted. It is only the well-doing members of the community of that class that do pay. But the collector will be able to say how much is realized from the 3s. rate-payers. I do not think it exceeds 70/. a year. 10.490. Since the first of June 1842 has the number of paupers on the roll increased or decreased ? — Decreased. 10.491. To what do you attribute that? — To the existence of a separate fund for the poor people of the town, and partly to trade having got some better, and partly to a con- siderable number of people having left the town. To these three causes I attribute the decrease. But of late the numbers have increased. 10.492. There has been an increase of prosperity lately ? — Yes. 10.493. Has it been lately that the number of paupers has increased .'' — Yes, and I should attribute that to the relief committee having stopped their allowance. 10.494. Have they been in the habit of giving relief to parties entitled to parochial relief? — Yes, if considered proper objects of relief. 10.495. On what ground ? — The want of employment. That class of persons which consists of those partially disabled from employment, were in the receipt of relief from our board, and also from the relief committee. From us they got what they would receive in ordinary times, and from the relief committee what they could afford. 10,496 Will you state the rates of allowance to old men past work ? — We take all those into the hospital when the allowance they require exceeds 6s. monthly. 10.497. But if they are not bed-ridden? — We take them into the hospital notwith- standing. 10.498. In regard to a widow with children, — do you give any allowance to a widow with one child only ? — No allowance, unless either she or the child is in bad health. 10.499. How much would you give to a widow with more than one child ? — From 6d. to 9d. per week for each of her children. 10.500. Do you give relief to mothers of illegitimate children? — We do if they have more than one. We cannot make a distinction. Some widows with children who are in poor circumstances have relatives who assist them ; and the sum we give bears reference to the ability of the relatives. 10.501. Have you many cases of deserted widows or children ? — I was looking over our roll lately, and found that there are twenty-seven females who are at present on the roll, wives whose husbands have deserted them, besides a number on the occasional list. 10.502. To what class of persons do they belong i* — Generally they are weavers' wives ; a few of them are the wives of other operatives in the town, bakers, shoemakers, &c. 10.503. Are they Scotch ? — Some of them are, — I should think the majority are Scotch. 10.504. Have you found that desertions have increased lately ? — No, excepting with one class. I do not hink we have more than some years past, with the exception of those who have emigrated co America and left their wives and children. 10.505. Have you reason to believe that they write to their wives and children after- wards to come out to them ?— In by far the greater number of cases there is no permanent desertion ; although in most of them it is the fact that the husband has left the woman without giving her notice ; but probably that may be to spare the feelings of the wife, and get away without being disturbed. 10.506. Is there a school in connexion vdth. the town's hospital ? — There is no school in Examinafions. Paisley. Mr J. S. IJiowii. 2'J April lftl3. 576 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFOKE THE Examinations. Paisley. Mr J. S. Brown. 5iU April 1843. immediate connexion with it. Tlie children connected with the town receive their educa- tion in Hutchison's charity school, an endowed free school. We have some taught in private schools. 10.507. {Lord Melville.) — Have you children boarded in the country? — Yes. 10.508. Are they looked after ? — Yes ; they are visited once a year, and also once a year they are brought to the hospital. 10.509. {Mr Robertson.) — Have you children in the town's hospital .' — No, except a few whose parents have been confined in prison, or who have deserted them ; and we keep them in the hospital for a short time till the mother is relieved from the prison in the one case, or a nurse provided for the deserted child in the other. 10.510. Are the children brought to the hospital examined as to their progress in educa- tion ? — None are examined when brought to the hospital except by myself ; but a small committee of managers visit them where they are placed, and there they are examined in- variably. They go to the schools where they are taught, and hear them examined. 10.511. What is the number of children in the house ? — Four at present. 10.512. What are the ages ? — One of them thirteen years of age. Three of them are children deserted by their parents ; one of whom has gone to America. Their ages are thirteen, eleven, seven, and five. 10.513. Are the children at thirteen years of age sent to any school to have instruction while they remain ? — They are attended to in the house ; they are taught by me when I have time. 10.514. Have you a surgeon connected with the hospital ? — Yes, a surgeon who visits daily. 10.515. And if the patients require additional food, has he the power of ordering it ? — He has. We have no power to make alterations in the diet of the house except by his orders. 10,51 G. How often is the house visited by the visiting committee ? — Once a week. 10.517. Are the inmates of the house allowed to bring in articles except beer or spiri- tuous liquors ? — They are ; but we do not countenance it. What they bring in is exceedingly trifling. The most respectable of the inmates never do it. 10.518. It is not supposed that the dietary is supplemented by food obtained by the aupers from without ? — No. 10.519. Do you give them tea at any time ? — No, unless they require it. 10.520. Are they allowed to introduce it from without? — Yes. 10.521. Do they get it? — A few of them who go to former friends get perhaps a little tea or money ; but very few of them do so, being content with the ordinary diet of the house. 10.522. Is the introduction of beer or spirituous liquors prohibited ? — Strictly. 10.523. Supposing a party introducing it, how would he be dealt with ? — He would not be allowed to leave the hospital until we had reason to believe that he would avoid the offence in future. That is the only mode we have of punishing such offenders. 10.524. How many lunatics are there in the workhouse ? — Forty-four at present are con- fined in the lunatic asylum. They are not all properly lunatics, some of them being dan- gerous idiots, who cannot be trusted in the hospital. Our number is less now than for the last twelvemonth or two. 10.525. They are under the superintendence of the house surgeon ? — Yes, and under the constant control of a person employed for the purpose, the cell-keeper, who resides within the premises. 10,52(3. How many inmates will the town's hospital hold ? — Not more conveniently than 210. 10.527. Do j'ou find that you have many more applications for admission than you are able to accede to ? — It is very rarely that we have been obliged to refuse applications ; we have rather suffered the house to be crowded. Sometimes it has been crowded more than was proper for the health of the inmates. 10.528. What was the greatest number you ever had in the house ? — I could not answer that question distinctly. In 1837-38, there were more than 245, not exceeding 250. 10.529. What made the number so great in 1837-38 ? — The children were then main- tained in the house ; a single bed, now occupied by two adults, was then occupied by four children. 10.530. What was the proportion of the children then ? — The average proportion for some years previous to 1838 was little less than one-third. We had scarcely ever less than 90, sometimes beyond 100. One of the reasons why the committee resolved to board out the children, was in order to prevent parents abandoning their children. We find that parties not disposed to labour for children, desert them for some time, and return, and often it has happened that we cannot find them out ; and if found, they often put themselves in such a position that the children cannot be given back to them. W'e consider it would be a discreditable matter to send the children to miserable hovels. Since the change took place, desertions are not so fi-equent ; a proof of which is, that we have only eighty-eight children on our permanent roll, which includes all the deserted children that we have. This has no reference to widows with children. Previously to 1838 we might have had on an average fifty more. 10.531. Do j'ou attribute that solely to the desertions? — Yes, I think so. 10.532. Could you give us a comparative statement of the number of deserted children for two years ? — 1 am not prepared at present to do it ; but from my books I can furnish it. 10.533. If deserted children were thrown on you now, would you not be equally bound to maintain them as if you took them into the workhouse ? — Yes ; but we found the parents were happy to have them in the hospital, where they could have a visit from them once a POOR LAW INQUIRY COM^IISSION FOR SCOTL.^^D. 577 week. When the children went from the hospital to the parents' houses, they were happy Examinations. to find them so comfortable, and so much better cared for than they were with themselves. Taislkv. But when the children are sent to the country, the parent, not knowing where they are ~ placed, it is a very diflFerent matter. We take care, in most cases, that the parents do not ^'jg ^ *^'in a^-j"" know where they are settled. 10.534. Then the diminution arises from attaching a penalty to the parent deserting the child, by not knowing what becomes of the child ? — Yes. We do not even force any widow to maintain her children, if she is not satisfied with the amount of the allowances which we give. We take the children from her. 10.535. Do you tell the mother where the children are sent to in such a case ? — That depends on her character. If we suppose she has a good reason for parting with them, we do ; but if we think she ought to exert herself more for them, we do not. 10.536. Where are the children principally sent to ? — Where we have no reason to conceal the place we may board them, in the neighbourhood of Paisley. We have a few in Houston, number in the town itself, and the outskirts ; a few in the Highlands, and a few in Campsie. 10.537. From what you have seen of the poor, have you reason to believe that any come to Paisley from the rural districts to get a settlement ? — I am not prepared to say that any come for the avowed pifrpose of obtaining a settlement. 10.538. Do you know instances of any being unwilling to go back to rural parishes from inadequate allowances there .'* — The principal reason that they do not go back is, that when they get up in years they become unfit for employment in the country. Perhaps they may have saved some little in the country, and thus are enabled, for a time, to keep a small shop, or hawk goods. They make a livelihood for a few years in this way ; and when they become unable to do anything for themselves they apply to us for relief. 10.539. Do you know whether farm servants have any difficulty in obtaining cottages when past work ? — T am not acquainted with that ; but from what I have seen, I have no doubt they will find a dif&culty in getting cottages. The case of a man occurs to me who is in the hospital. He is no^v fifty-four years of age. He is disabled by rheumatism from doing anything for himself. He did not come to Paisley until he was disabled for country work by this disease ; and ever since he came to Paisley he has depended |>artly on charity and partly on a day's employment now and then from former employers in the country. He belongs to the Abbey parish, and spent the most of his days there. Many of our poor were born in the Abbey parish. 10.540. Of those not born in Paisley, may the larger portion not have spent the best of their days in Paisley ? — By far the most of them. 10.541. Would it be desirable to alter the law of settlement? — Very desirable. I think it ought to be extended at least to seven years, and I am not sure but that some other qualifications should be required. Perhaps they should be required to have been themselves householders in town, and should have contributed to the poor rates for some time more or less. But this is merely an opinion. The period, however, is too short, and ought to be at least what we understand the law provides, seven years ; but it has not been so interpreted by the Court of Session. 10.542. What is the name of this person to whom you allude ? — William Rawliston. 10.543. As a large portion of the paupers have passed the best of their days in Paisley, would it not be a fallacious test, and lead to some degree of hardship, if regard were made merely to place of birth .' — It is the opinion of many gentlemen in town, that birth settle- ment would be the best for us ; but I cannot say how it could be managed here. I think it ought to be the last resort. It would lead to confusion in the management of parish business, if all should be required to go to the places where they were born. 10.544. In what way ? — Because a considerable number of our own population go to other parishes, and when unable to work they would apply to those parishes for support, and inconvenience would arise from the one parish corresponding in so many instances with the other ; and it would be often inconvenient and expensive for the pauper himself to come to the parish of his birth. I state my opinion however with diffidence. 10.545. {M?- Itobertson^ — Would you conceive it an equitable law if a person who had spent the best part of his existence in Paisley (which place had benefited by his labour) should be cast off from parochial relief? — That is one of the reasons why a birth settlement may not be expedient ; and as the proportion of our people who settle in other parishes is unknown, I am doubtful if the advantage would be so great as some imagine. 10.546. How many are bom in the Abbey parish? — I do not know ; but I can let you know, by looking at the analysis made up. 10.547. {Mr Tuideton.~) — Does any point strike you in the poor laws as capable of im- provement? — The part of the Scotch law having reference to settlement is one which ne- cessarily requires alteration. The period is too short, and ought to be extended to at least seven years under the conditions I have already specified. I also think that something should be done in the way of making it more easy for parish authorities to prosecute those who desert their families. This is not so easy a matter here as it is in England. We can put them in jail as debtors, but we must maintain them as such. They can only be punished in this way until they find security for the maintenance of their child. On that account we have not instituted so many prosecutions as we would otherwise have done. We have not punished those deserving of punishment, in consequence of the expense attending it. There is another point, — the difficulty we experience in getting payment of the expenses which have been incurred for the maintenance of parties who belong to distant parishes. As a specimen of the difficulty, I have brought a letter from the session-clerk of the parish of , which, if you please, I shall read. 4 E 578 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Paisley. Mr J. S. Brown, 20 April 1843. 16^/( Septemher 1841. Sir, — Your last, and all the previous letters anent Jane M'lnnes* affair, were laid be- fore the kirk session, and by them before several meetings of the heritors of this parish ; but nothing at all was ever determined upon by them. Since receipt of yours, I have written to each of the heritors, with a copy of it for their government ; and on receiving their an- swers I will Immediately communicate with you, as the session can do nothing by itself in the said affair. — I am, Sir, your most obedient servant, (Signed) S. Clerk of - The next letter I had from the same person is of date 17th October 1841, — Sib, — On receipt of your last I wrote to each of the heritors of this parish, stating your claim against them, and that you were to prosecute unless immediate payment were made of 1/. 16s. I have patiently waited for answers from them, and have had only two out of seven. This will give you an idea of how matters are cared for in this parish. I, as session- clerk, have all along done all that I could in the matter ; but without funds I cannot do what you so earnestly demand, viz., pay 1/. 16s. for your outlay in Paisley for a woman said to be of this parish until I am put in possession of funds for that purpose, either by the session or heritors, neither of whom, as I said, have done anything towards that up to this writing. From your own gentlemanly conduct as to the session here, I write you this pri- vately. I have no authority from the heritors or session to answer you at all ; but I may tell you, as to the session, that they have no funds under their control, except the weekly collections in church, which average about one shilling per week. We have so many poor, blind, halt and maimed to divide this small amount among, that even should your claim be good, and you should prosecute, your chance of anything like payment of your account out of such miserable funds is extremely small. Do you, however, as seems good to you in the matter. 1 have done all I could ; and after this notice I hope you will apply to the heritors per- sonally, not to me, as I have no authority whatever to act for them in such matters as this. ■ — I am, Sir, yours respectfully. 10.548. Would it be desirable to unite the two parishes in Paisley for the purpose of settlement?— I think it would, without regard to the burden. I think that the land which is in the immediate neighbourhood of Paisley is valuable in consequence of its vicinity, and that those who possess the land ought to contribute something to the maintenance of the poor in Paisley. 10.549. Do you board out lunatics independently to those in your asylum .' — No, we have more than sufficient accommodation for our lunatics, and we also receive boarders from other parishes. We consider that we have as fair an opportunity of recovering them as could be afforded in any similar institution. 10.550. Would they not be better treated in an institution solely set apart for their treatment ? — I think they would. However, our institution is entirely separate from the hospital ; it is a separate building, and in a separate court. There is no intercourse between the inmates of the hospital and the asylum. The deficiency is the locality of the institu* tion, and the want of sufficient grounds. The grounds are too small ; otherwise they are just as well with us as they would be anywhere else. 10.551. How often are the accounts audited ? — Once a quarter, by a special committee appointed by the board. 10.552. Is it the duty of the committee to consider the legality of the expenditure ? — No, the committee have only to consider whether the treasurer's intromissions correspond with the vouchers produced. 10.553. Supposing the board misapplied the means, is there any check .?— No check, except that of the town-council, appointing people in their places at the end of the year. The committee have the entire management of every thing referring to the poor. The town-council send down three to communicate with them. 10.554. In addition to the quarterly audits, is there any annual examination 1 — Yes, an annual examination. Paisley Town Hospital, Ist May 1843. Sir, — In compliance with your request, I beg herewith to transmit the abstract to which I referred, in my examination on Saturday last ; and to add that the poor's roll of this date presents similar proportions. I have examined our books with reference to the gross disbursements for the year end- ing June 1842, and find the statement I gave in to be correct. The published abstract does not embrace the expense of collection as a part of our expenditure, which is the cause of the discrepancy noticed by Mr Twisleton. — I am. Sir, your most obedient humble servant, J.S.BROWN. W. Smythe, Esq,, Secretary, Poor Law Commissioners, Paisley. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 579 ABSTRACT of the Number and Description of Poor on the Poor's Rate of Paisley, 1st July 1840. Inmates of Hospital, 1. Inmates born in Paisley, ... ... ... ... ... 97 2. Inmates born in other towns and parishes of Scotland, ... ... 74 3. Inmates born in England, ... ... ... ... ... 2 4. Inmates born in Malta, ... ... ... ... ... 1 5. Inmates born in Ireland who have spent the best of their days in Paisley, ... 11 6. Inmates born in Ireland who were past fifty years of age, and partially disabled when they came to Paisley, ... ... ... .... 7 Outdoor Poor. 7. Outdoor poor born in Paisley. 8. Outdoor poor born in other towns and parishes of Scotland, 9. Outdoor poor born in Ireland who spent the best of their days in Paisley, 10. Outdoor poor born in Ireland who were past forty years, and some of them past seventy years of age, and most of them partially disabled when they came to Paisley, 11. Outdoor poor born in England. 12. Outdoor poor born in France, 13. Outdoor poor born in America, Total, 61 G ABSTRACT of the above. 1. Number of poor born in Paisley, ... ... ... ... 250 2. Number of poor born in other towns and parishes in Scotland, ... ••• 223 3. Number of poor born in Ireland who were past forty, some of them past seventy years of age, and most of them partially disabled when they came to Paisley, 98 4. Number of poor born in Ireland who have spent the best of their days in Paisley, 38 5. Number of poor born in England, ... ... ... ... 4 6. Number of poor born in Malta, ... ... ... ... 1 7. Number of poor born in France, ... ... ... ... 1 8. Number of poor born in America, ... ... ... ... 1 Examinations. Paisley. Mr J. S. Broim. 29 April 1843. 153 149 27 91 2 1 1 Total, 616 Mr Daniel M^Kinlay, Surgeon, Examined : — 10.555. You are surgeon of the town's hospital ? — Yes. 10.556. How long have you been so ? — Fourteen years — I was appointed in June 1829. 10.557. How often is it your duty to visit the patients .'' — Daily, and oftener on emer- gencies. 10.558. You have the power of ordering what they require .'' — Yes ; whatever I think they require. 10.559. And generally do you consider that all parties in the hospital are treated well ? — I do, I never found the slightest obstruction to anything I desired. 10,5G0. Do you approve of the established dietary ? — Yes. 10.561. Have you reason to think that the hospital is now, or has ever been too crowded ? — At one time it was too crowded, especially with children, and previously to 1838, I re- peatedly remonstrated in regard to the wards inhabited by the children, and in 1838 the children were boarded out. 10.562. How many inmates will the town's hospital hold without being injurious to health ? — About 200, including the lunatic department. 10.563. Do you attend the outdoor poor .? — No. 10.564. Are you in the habit of visiting them ? — They are principally taken care of by four district surgeons attached to the dispensary. 10.565. Are you in the habit of visiting the poor ? — In two different ways. I have been in the habit of visiting as superintendent connected with the dispensary ; and I am also in the habit of visiting parochial cases where individuals are labouring under disease, the direc- tors frequently referring to me in regard to their disability ; but 1 do not prescribe for out- door patients, I only report respecting them. 10.566. What is the general condition of the poor in the receipt of parochial relief, — are they properly provided for ? — They would be the better of more, certainly ; a great number of their dwellings are very miserable. 10.567. Does that depend on their poverty or habits ? — On both. 10.568. The town of Paisley has been tolerably free from fever this last year? — Yes, much more so than for many years by-past. 10.569. To what do you attribute that ? — Partially, it may be, to the more steady habits of the people ; but during several former depressions it was similarly conditioned, with the Mr D. M'Kinlay. 580 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E-xaniirations. exception of the depression of 1837, when fever raged to a considerable extent ; in the Paisley. depression of 1S26 there was scarcely any disease at all. - ,..„. . 10,570. Do you think intemperance has a tendency to make a person liable to catch the 29Aprill84sr infection of fever ? — No doubt. During the late depression the poor people were more regularly fed than on ordinary occasions, — they were more out of doors, instead of being confined to their miserable hovels. 10.571. Would you term the dwellings of weavers miserable hovels? — If you take the lowest class of weavers' dwellings they are very miserable indeed, — very different from what they were even in 182G. 10.572. Do you consider that the town is well ventilated, and the sewerage good? — In some parts the sewerage is not good. There are particular districts where, during any epi- demic, disease prevails to a great extent ; and this I would consider in some measure to be the consequence of inadequate sewerage. 10.573. Have vou found epidemics to prevail much where the sewerage is imperfect? — Yes. At the time of cholera in 1 832, fever in 1832, and dysentery in 1828, 182'.), the mor- tality was much greater in those districts where the sewerage is imperfect than in other parts of the town. 10.574. Have you any points to notice in regard to the hospital inmates ? — One thing I would notice is the great improvement that has taken place in the health of the inmates since the children were boarded out, and the wards not so much over-crowded. In 1838 the annual mortality was fifty-two, in 1839 it was forty-seven. The children were sent out at the latter end of 1838 ; and since then the mortality has been reduced to thirty-four, and last year it was twenty-seven only. Since I took charge, in 1829, the hospital has been considerably improved, by pulling down a number of intervening partitions and walls, so that adequate ventilation was obtained. Since then ward nurses were appointed, which improvements have lessened both the extent of disease, and the extent of mortality. But the class of inmates now admitted is somewhat difi^erent from the class of inmates when I first took charge. Then the inmates were generally the old and infirm, now they are more frequently the diseased. The house of recovery admits only fever patients, cases of sud- den accidents, and persons requiring operations. 10.575. Was there mortality among the children ? — Yes ; it is remarkable that it not only existed among the children while they were there, but a great deal of it among ajicd persons. The mortality has been greatly reduced among the aged since the children went out. The children were not very cleanly — they destroyed their beds ; and from the over- crowded state of the house, there was no possibility of getting them kept in proper con- dition. I beg leave to read an extract from a report of mine to the directors in the year 1838: — " The attention of the directors is particularly requested to the increased mortality of the hospital children. During the two bypast years the average number has been ninety-seven, ranging from a few months old upwards. Of these thirty-seven have in that time died. Whilst it would be attended with little advantage to specify the diseases they individually died of, it is proper to remark, that more than four-fifths of them died of cachetic diseases, or that of imperfect nutrition ; not that they did not obtain nourishing food, and even what- ever cordials they required, but their assimilatory organs were in such a state of diseas3 that they were unable to separate and extract the nutrition from the food they received. It is no doubt true that a great proportion of the children that are admitted to the house are, from previous want of proper food and clothing, in a state of delicate health at the time of their reception. But their admission to the hospital, although there they receive plenty of both, seldom, if ever, improves their health, but generally the very reverse. Indeed, few of those who are admitted young survive to adult age, and still fewer become robust. The cause of all this is to be found in their confined condition, and the crowded state of their sleeping apartments, where they are necessitated to breathe deteriorated air uninterruptedly from nine at night till seven in the morning. No adequate idea can be formed of the state of the matter from visiting the wards during the day, when they are properly ventilated, and consequently the no.xious air expelled. But let these wards be examined between t\vo and seven o'clock in the morning, and the true state of the case will be apparent,- — the cause of delicate health of the children, and the great average mortality, easily accounted for. No person can be accused of laxity in duty. The matron is unceasing in her attention to cleanliness, &c. ; and the ward nurses, especially those in the children's apartments, per- form their duty in the most satisfactory manner. The only remedy is to be found in very much diminishing the number of children in each ward ; or, what would still be prefer- able, boarding them out altogether. At present they are reared at a more expensive rate than some may be aware. Even with the most restricted economy I can keep in view, owing to their debilitated state in their illnesses, 1 am compelled, from a sense of duty, to order them cordials, &c. ; also to keep them warmer clad than the majority of other chil- dren require, and out of all comparison more so than the same rank elsewhere, who are, notwithstanding, much stouter, have fewer illnesses, and pass through the diseases of infancy with comparative impunity. Another cause also, although perhaps a less powerful one, is the want of that mental stimulus which the free intercourse with a variety of children is so well fitted to give, and which, by imparling a buoyancy to the spirits in infancy, tends so much to the preservation of good health." Since then I have kept a constant look-out after the cliildren ; and there have been comparatively few deaths among them. 10,57(). Now, the evil mentioned in that report is entirely remedied ?— Yes. It may be proper to remark that since then there has been scarcely any mortalit}' among the children boarded out. They are boarded out generally in the country, — a general preference is given to the country. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 581 10.577. Have you any connexion with the dispensary, and house of recovery? — None at Examinations, present ; but I had till within the last year, for a considerable number of years ; and I was Paisley. one of those that got the plan of district surgeons into operation. ^^^ D M'Kinla 10.578. What is the nature of the house of recovery ? — It was instituted solely for the ' 29 April mil' reception of fever patients, those who had met with accidents, and those requiring ope- rations. 10.579. Is it solely supported by voluntary contributions? — Yes. 10.580. Have you reports for any length of time ? — For the last four years. 10.581. In regard to the dispensary connected with the house of recovery, will you ex- plain the nature of it ? — It is for the purpose of having the poor attended to at their own houses by the visiting surgeons. Four district surgeons now visit them in their own houses. Before April 1839 they were visited by the apothecary of the dispensary ; but he had so much to do that he could not do it so effectively as the four district surgeons do. 10.582. You have one house surgeon for the house of recovery, and four for outdoor pa- tients ? — Yes ; these are superintended by five senior surgeons called a medical board, one of the five taking charge of the house for six months alternately. 10.583. In cases of difficulty do the district surgeons call for the assistance of the super- intendent surgeons ? — Yes. 10.584. And you have acted as one ? — Yes, both under the former system and the present. 10.585. This is totally unconnected with parochial relief.' — Yes. 10,58(5. Supposing an outdoor pauper is sick, who attends him ? — He obtains a ticket to the dispensary from some one who is a contributor, and this entitles him to medical relief from the dispensary. No part of the funds connected with it, or with the house of recovery, come from the parochial funds. 10.587. Have the district surgeons a power to order nutritious diet, or merely to give medicines ? — Merely to give medicines. 10.588. In regard to the medical attendance, are you satisfied with it, — is it sufficient for the poor? — I think the attendance would be much more efficient if the district surgeons were better paid. The superintendents get nothing, but the district svu-geons are quite inadequately paid, and can scarcely be expected to give the attention that would be requii-ed. They get only 10/. each per annum. 10.589. How many cases do they visit on an average ? — The number on the 1st April on the dispensary was i527 — that number divided among them they had to attend. 10.590. How many cases are visited during the year by each of the medical men for the 10/. ? — During the last year there were 2249 individual cases. I have here an abstract taken from the report for four years back, which I beg to read : — In 1839 the number of patients treated by the dispensary, was ... 1622 1840, 2409 1841, 2291 1842, ... ... ... ... 2249 Of these were received into the house of recovery in 1839, 395, of which 364 were fever patients, 31 labouring under other diseases. In 1840, admitted into the house, ... ... ... ... 691 Of these were fever patients, ... ... ... ... 669 Twenty-two labouring under other diseases. In 1841, admitted into the house, ... ... ... ... 478 Of these fever cases, ... ... ... ... ... 463 Fifteen laboui-ing under other diseases. In 1842, admitted to the house, 122. Of these were fever cases 108. Fourteen other diseases. The amount of medicines, including cutlery, trusses, &c., for the dispensary, — In 1839, ... ... ... ... ... ... £59 7 6 1840, 68 5 1841, 62 17 1842, 59 10.591. Have you no difficulty in raising the funds for maintaining the house of recovery ? — Sometimes, — especially of late we have had considerable difficulty. We have always been able to do without incurring debt, not only by means of contributions, but by legacies. 10.592. Have you any observations to make in regard to medical relief.'' — I think there must be an improvement in this. If the district surgeons were better remunerated, the managers would be entitled to exact more rigid service from them. They are very imper- fectly remunerated. The present allowance is not an object to any man, and only junior surgeons will take the appointment, and even few of them. 582 Examinations. Paisley, 1 Mav 1843. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Monday f \st May 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. James Cahipbell of Craigic) Esq., | Edward Twisleton, Esq., and llev. James Robertson. JAJVIES CAMPBELL OF CRAIGIE, ESQ., IN THE CHAIR. Mr M'Failftn6» Mr Walter M'Farlane, Collector of Poor Rates, Examined :— 10.593. {Mr Campbell.) — ^^Yhat is your designation ? — Collector of poor rates for the burgh of Paisley. 10.594. How long have you been so ? — Thirty-six years, since Martinmas last. 10.595. How are the poor rates collected ? — By an assessment laid on by stent-masters appointed by the magistrates and council. 10.596. Is the assessment laid on all property within the town? — No. Heritable pro- perty, the proprietors of which do not reside in the town, is not charged. 10.597. Only heritable property belonging to those I'esiding -within the town is charged? — ^Yes. 10.598. Do you charge on means and substance ? — Yes. 10.599. Is that mode of charging the jwor's rates satisfactory? — The people were satis- fied with it at the beginning, but not now. 10.600. What is their objection now .' — Tliey Avish to get it more equally laid on, but no man knows what the equality is to be. The amount of the assessment chai-ged on the rate- payers is a mere guess. 10.601. Is it the same on the rental? — We do not charge on the rental: the amount charged includes income from every source. 10.602. There is no distinction between heritable and moveable property ?— Not this year. 10.603. By whose authority was the change made ? — The assessors themselves made the change. They had the same statute then that they have now. Tlic statute says means and substance ; but they took the present mode, thinking they could ascertain it more equally. 10.604. What is the date of the statute ? — I cannot say distinctly. I think 1579 is one of them. There are a great many statutes, and they take any of them that suits. 10.605. The assessment proceeds on the general law? — Yes. 10.606. Was the fund last year sufficient for the niaintensmce of the ordinary poor? — Last year 2000Z. were raised ; and there were of recovered arrears 415^., — making in all 2415^. 10.607. W'hat other income is there besides assessment? — They keep lodgers in the hospital, and are paid for them. 10.608. You do not know how much money Is derived from that source ? — I do not know. I liave no charge except in collecting the money, 10.609. Was the amount sufficient, with other sources, to maintain the poor? — They have gone rather behind, and there was a supplementary assessment of 2o per cent, addi- tional. I have recovered of that 340/. ; and there will he 201. more to^norrow, which will make 360/. 10.610. Have you any idea of the extent of the heritable property within the burgh be- longing to non-residents ? — I could not say ; but there Is a great deal. The Abbey parish lays one-half on heritable property, and all the landward parishes do so ; and the other half on means and substance ; yet they are dearer in the Abbey parish than in Paisley. 10.611. Have you any idea of the number of the poor m the parish, in propoii;ion to the popvdatlon ? — No. 10.612. Do you know the proportion of the jioor in your own parish ? — No. Mr A. Hodge. - Mr Archibald Hodge, Treasvu-er of the General Session, Examined : — 10.613. {Mr Campbell.) — ^You are treasurer to the general session of the burgh of Pals- ley ? — Yes. 10.614. And you are actuary to the savings' bank ? — Yes, 10.615. Do you pay the allowance to the outdoor poor on the general session? — ^My duty is to receive the collections at the churches, and monthly to i^ay the amount allowed to the poor to the elders for distribution, 10.616. Is there any fund under your charge, except collections at the church door? — The proclamation fees for marriages, 10.617. WHiat did these amount to during the last year? — The collections and proclama- tion fees amounted to 686/, 10.618. Is that fund ajiproiniated entirely to the poor of the congregations of the Estab- lished church within the buigh ? — Yes. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 583 10.619. Do you pay any part of it to the poor yourself? — Yes, as an elder I do. I also take charge of those who have a claim, but who are not resident within the burgh. 10.620. Arc those who are not resident within the burgh considered as belonging to the congregations ? — When they come to have a claim on the town, if they go to another parish and continue in communion with the church of Scotland, they have a claim on us so long as they continue members of the church. 10.621. What check have you to prevent persons continuing on the roU after being in better circumstances ? — The elders are directed to visit all the poor once a month ; and they commimicate half-yearly with the parish to which any may have removed that have a claim on us. 10.622. The list of names on the session book is the rule for regulating jawc payments ?— Yes. 10.623. And in order to pay in safety, if the person does not appear himself, you take other means to ascertain that he is stiU living, and entitled to relief? — Yes. 10.624. From your intercourse with the poor of your own district, can you inform us in what state they ai'C, — are tlicy in a destitute state, or in a state of tolerable comfort ? — lu general, the poor on the session — that is, those in communion with the church, as well aa in my own district — are not destitute. They have friends that make up wliat is deficient in the julowance. When they are depending entirely on the session, and are quite destitute, they are admitted to the town's hospital. By an arrangement between the magistrates and the general session, we are allowed to send any who cannot support themselves on a moderate outdoor allowance to the hospital ; and where an ordinary allowance could not meet their necessities, we send them to the hospital, unless there is something peculiar in their ciroum- stances ; for instance, in such a state of disease that they would be injured by going to the hospital, 10.625. Where persons have no friends to assist them, and have no other resources but the allowance from the poor's fund, do you think the allowance is sufficient to maintain them ? — Scarcely, — certainly not in comfort, 10.626. {Mr Twisleton.) — What is the average allowance to an old man past doing work, but not bed-ridden ? — 6s. or 6s, 6d, a month, 10.627. Is there the same allowance to an old woman in similar circumstances ?-r- Yes, 10.628. To a poor man and his wife in circiunstances of a similar nature ? — The allowance in such a case is from Ss. to 10s. a month, 10.629. Do you give an allowance to a widow with one child if she is able-bodied ?-^-We do, 10.630. What amount? — If the child is on the breast, we allow 2s, 6d, a week. When the child comes to be one year old, we reduce the allowance to 2s., when four years old to Is. 6d, 10.631. When does the allowance to the child cease? — When they are nine years of age, Some delicate children are retained till they are twelve. 10.632. Do you think any addition should be made to these allowances you have mentioned for the comfort of the poor ? — -To aged persons I should think that an allowance of one-, fourth more would be necessary ; for children the allowance is generally adequate. 10.633. {Mr Cainphell.) — -Do you think an addition of one-fourth would enable aged per-r sons to live in comfort ? — Yes ; tolerably so. 10.634. Would tliat put them on a footing with the working classes receiving the lowest rate of wages ? — ^No ; a working man requires more for nourishment and strength. 10.635. You do not think it necessary that a pauper should be on the same footing with a working man receiving the lowest class of wages ? — No. 10.636. Have you a statement of the receipt and expenditure of the sessional fund for the poor for last year ? — Yes. 10.637. W hat is the amount of receipts, and the amount of expense ?— ^-Total receipts, 716^. ; and the total expenditure, including the teaching of the children, fees to the pres-r bytery and synod clerks, and church officers, to the treasurer and clerk for the session, ex- pense of the communion service, for the removing of seats, cleaning of linen, gas, printing, and stationery, 740Z, 14s, 6d, 10.638. Is that an account of the receipts and expenditure which you hold in your hand? — ^Yes. 10.639. Will you be kind enough to give it in ? — Yes. [See appended to evidence.] 10.640. Who audits this account?— Two of the elders, The names are given there for the last year, 10.641. Do the parties who audit the accounts give in a report ? — Yes, 10.642. Is this a copy of the report for the last year ? — Yes, 10.643. Are there any expenses charged on the poor's funds but the maintenance of the poor ? — The fees of the clerks of the church courts (synod and presbytery), and the clerlf and treasurer for the general session, and officers of the church. 10.644. {3£r Tiviskton,) — Have the collections at the church doors increased or decreased ? Decreased, 10.645. How much? — The decrease last year, compared with the preceding, waa 39/. 88. lOd., and the decreage on the preceding year, 39Z. 5s. 2d, 10.646. How do you account for the falling off in the collections ? — Partly from the nunij- ber of additional churches in the to\vn, and the gradually drawing away of members and sitters from the town churches to the quoad sacra cluu-ches, and partly from the state of ti-axle, 10.647. Ai-e the collections at the church doors of all the separate parishes tlu-own into one common fund and distributed over the poor of all ? — The collections at the quoad mora churches are kept entirely for their own use. The three town churches burden themselves Examinations. J^AISLEY. Mr A. Hodge. 1 May M,iA. 584 MINUTES OF E\aDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations, "^vitli all the poor ill communion with the chiirch witliin the burgh, inclusive of the quoad sacra Paisley. parishes and Gaelic chapel. Ulr A Hodee 10,648. The question is, arc the collections at the church doors thro^vn into one common 1 May 1843. fiuid, or are the collections at each church door allotted to the comnmnicants of that parti- cular church ? —They are thrown into one common fund, applicable to all the poor. 10.649. Are the funds of the quoad saci'ci churches applied to the maintenance of the churches, and the clergyman's stij)end ? — I believe so. The constitution of these chiu-ches by the General Assembly allows five years for retaining the collections ; after that, I sup- pose, they will be under the direction of the church courts and heritors, 10.650. {Ml' Robertson.') — Do you approve of the plan of thus providing for the poor in communion with the Establislied Chxu-ch ? — I cannot approve of it now. It would seem to have been a good arrangement at the time it was commenced in 1828. At that time tlie collections were about 180^. larger than what they are now, and there were then only three town churches and the Gaelic chapel ; now there are three quoad sacra churches, and a great increase of communicants, while tlie collections are diminished. All the dissentei's get their poor on the roll of the poorhouse, and they are thereby on an equal footing with our session poor, and the collections at the dissenting church doors, that arc over and above the necessary deductions, are distributed among their poor communicants. Tlieir poor are thus better off than ours are. I anticipate that, after the disruption, this plan must be broken up. 10.651. Do you approve of the principle of administration by the minister and kirk-session to those of their own communion ? — I do not see any advantage derived from it, I think the administration should be tlu-ough a paid superintendent. I have had a great deal of labour in calling meetings of all the sessions before the committee of the general session, in order to get the lists revised ; and I found that, from the time they were revised in one year, till they were revised tlie next, there were great inequalities in the allowance. Per- sons who had been taken upon the list in bad health were continued, altiiough they had got better ; and persons ^^•ho had been taken on the list in good health became iU, and were in greater need, and their allowance was not increased till tiie aniuial investigation. All this Avould be prevented, if we had one person to take the charge, and superintend. The labour is far too much for parties who ai-e not paid. Those who are acting gratuitously cannot give })roper attention to it : besides, I find that thei-e is a great difference on the part of elders. Some of them are w^ealtliy, and, I believe, add considerably, from their own funds, to the allowance out of the session funds. It depends very much on the feelings and circumstances of the elders how the poor are looked after. 10.652. If tlie administration were reduced to a more systematic form, and if the staff of elders were enlarged, would not most of those evils be removed ? — I do not tliink that these evils would be removed by enlarging the staff of elders. In the High Churcli, with which I am connected, there are seventeen elders. On the whole general session there are at ])resent thirty-nine or forty elders. Last year the town's hospital found that sixty-tliree overseers were a great deal too many. They i-educed them to eighteen. They found that a great number of administrators of the poor only tended to increase the amount of money expended, without imjiroving the administration. 10.653. If the collections received at the doors of the quoad sacra churches were added to the general fund, would not that make it equal to the support of the poor of the Estabhshed Church ? — I do not know if tlicy would — the collections are small. 10.654. (Mr Campbell.) — I see an item in the account, " New year's gift to poor, 93Z. 12s." — explain how that is given ? — It was originally intended to be given to those who were in necessitous circumstances, but not on tlie regular roll of the poor ; but latterly it is almost as extensively administered as the other funds. AU who are on the session roll get at the new year 4s. 6d. or 5s. — sufficient to buy a pair of shoes, or coals, in addition to the regular sessional allowance. 10.655. What is the average number of sessional poor on the sessions' fund ? — All who received during 1842, amounted to 344 persons. On the permanent roll, 175 aged persons, and sixty children. Those who received occasional aid amounted to 109 — in all, 344, who re- ceived help during the last year; but the average number on the roll was 201, 10.656. How often do the elders visit the poor ? — It is a general practice to visit once in three months, before or after church communion. We have four communion seasons. 10.657. You said that the dissenting poor, receiving aid from the town's hospital and the collections at their churches, arc better off than the session poor ? — Yes. 10.658. In regulating the allowance, does not the town's hos2)ital take into consideration the sum given to the dissenting poor from their own body ? — That used to be the practice ; but the directors of the hospital are mostly all dissenters, and do not consider that their col- lections should be taken into account in fixing the allowance by the hospital. 10.659. The allowances given by the hospital are all taken out of the genend sum levied from the burgh at large ? — Yes. 10.660. The funds of the hospital consist entirely of the same funds ? — Yes. 10.661. Plave you anything to say in addition ?— The number of poor on our list belonging to tlie Gaelic church is 28, and they receive 65^. a year. 10.662. Have those persons been long resident in Paisley ? — Yes, many of them were brought here thirty years ago, and were enij)loyed in the making of thread. That trade is given up ; and the aged poor have much greater difficulty in obtaining employment than formerly from other sources, in consequence of the great increase of machinery. 1,0,663. Have you anything farther you would wish to suggest in reference to the poor? — In regard to the period of settlement, it would be desirable that it should be extended for a period longer than three years. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 585 10.664. To wliat peiiod would you propose to extend it? — At least to seven years. I Examinations, would not think ten years too much, but at least seven years. Perhaps from the changes Paisley. which take place in the manufacturing districts, seven years would be long enough. Mr A Hoace 10.665. Do persons come on your roll after a residence of barely three years? — Yes. I i ji^y 1843/ can mention an instance. The father of a family, who had been engaged in labouring work died, and at his death the mother and family all came to to^vn. She superintended the family, and the children contrived to earn a living by working in factories. The children got up, and married, and left the mother destitute, having fonnerly maintained her. After she had been three years here, she put in her claim. I do not speak of this as a thing planned in any way. They came here from the natural desire of getting work. 10.666. Have you found many cases of that kind? — A great number of widows come here with their children. 10.667. Have you found cases of men coming, after the prime of life, more with the view of obtaining a settlement than work ? — No, I never discovered any. 10.668. Is there any other change you would suggest? — In regard to the plan of raising the assessment, the experience we have had in Paisley tells us, that the assessment is too heavy for the mhabitants to bear ; and the consequence is, that it makes those who have made money, and are able to retire from business, go and reside elsewhere, and leave their property here, which is not assessed. 10.669. Is there a danger of reducing to poverty those who pay assessments for the main- tenance of the poor ? — Yes ; it has gone on progressively in amount, and is likely to increase. 10.670. Does it not fall on those who are able to maintain the poor ? — It falls on those chiefly who arc in business. It does not fall on property. 10.671. Does an income of 30^. a year pay ? — A party does not pay till he comes to have an income of 501. The working classes pay no assessment for the poor, and although they are assessed for police and for statute labour, very few of them pay. Many come asking certificates for exemption : and, when the collectors think it worth while, they may have more than a hundred summoned to the court. There is no legal exemption ; it Is discre- tionary. 10.672. How much has an individual to pay who has an income of 1001. a year ? — 21. 10s. . 10.673. Take the case of an Individual having 1000/. of income ? — He would have 251. a year. 10.674. Is that rate of assessment burdensome to an individual for the support of the poor ? — I do not think it imreasonable ; but it falls chiefly on those classes who feel it most. It is heavy on shopkeepers, or persons of such incomes, or manufacturers, who are, besides, required to do a great deal for the charitable institutions of the town, — Sabbath schools, infir- mary, and various societies. With aU these items the bilrden is very heavy. 10.675. Do you think the sum you mentioned as payable by a man of 100/. a year unrea- sonable, considering the distressed state of the town ? — No ; but, while persons assessed at the rate of 200Z. a year, paying 51., voluntary subscrii)tion8 have been needed besides ; and so many of our manufacturers having become bankrupt during the last year, those in circum- stances to pay have been obliged to exert themselves to make up for the deficiency of others. 10.676. What is the average of rental paid by persons having 50/. a year of income? — About 51. a year of rent. 10.677. What rental may be paid by an individual having 100/. a year ? — From 10/. to 12/. 10.678. By an individual with 200/. a year?— 19/. 19s. We keep the rent under 20/. in consequence of the local taxes. 10.679. Is the police rate charged on the annual rent ? — Yes ; aU local taxes are charged on the annual rent. I have occasion, acting as a house-factor, to have from three to four hiuidred tenants luider my charge. I receive large sums of money annually for proprietors, who reside in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and various places, whose properties are not assessed. 10.680. Tliat is because the heritable property of non-residenters is not assessed ? — Yes. 10.681. Did you find diflSculty in collecting the rents last year? — It cost more labour; but there was no great difference in money. Some of the people were in better circum- stances than when the trade was better, — people who are rather indolent. 10.682. You are aware that a number of the persons who received relief are persons who would not haxc made so much in working, from their own indolence ? — Yes ; I acted as trustee in a bankruptcy. 200 weavers had been employed by the firm, and I had to see them finish their work. I had great difficulty in getting forward the work of some who could have made 8s. a week. They said they coiUd get 7s. a week without working, and A^hy work for 8s. At the same time, individuals in the neighbouring towns of Kilbarchan, Renfrew, Barrhead, and Houston, making no more than 9s. a week, Avere depositing in the savings' banks. 10.683. Do you know of any more instances of persons who preferi-ed taking relief from the relief committee to gaining a livelihood from their own labour ? — I have heard of such. 10.684. What is the number of those to whom you would have given 8s. a Aveek who would not work? — Perhajis five or six out of the 200 I mentioned. There were no new webs given out, and the number of weavers employed quickly diminished. I had prosecu- tions threatened by jtartics for wages who were not entitled to them, because they had not done the "-.ork intrusted to them. A considerable number of the weavers engaged by the house were owing considerable sums of money at the end to the house. 10.685. How had the debts arisen? — From the people having got out work to whom the house had to advance money to get the materials out of their hands. I found that this house had more than the one-half of the 200 employed out of the town, and they were not annoyed by them for money. The town weavers were in advance. 4 F 586 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Ex»minations. lOjfi&O. Then a loss arose to that house from weavers having got money before they did 1'aisi.fy. the work ? — Yes ; they exeentetl jwirt of the work, but had to get advances from week to week, as they proceeded, and, before the work was done, they got more money than they \Ma\lv,rf. were entitkid to get. The conduct of the country weavers was quite different. 10,087. Did tlie country weavers in the time of distress seem to be in tolerable comfort? — Yes ; those who were in employment. 10.688. AVcre there respectable weavers diu-ing the distress out of emplojTnent in Paisley ? — Yes, a great number. 10.689. Why did they not take the work to which you refer? — The work was fitted up in shops belonging to other weavers, and unless the work was taken to their own shops, which was expensive, they were unwilling to execute it ; and, besides the little benefit it would be to them, they would have to suffer the reproaches of those who would not work. 10.690. "Was there a combination against them ? — No. But the honour of tradesmen pre- vented a weaver accepting the work which another had left because it would not pay. 10.691. The alleged ground was, that they could not make wages of it ? — Yes ; the origi- nal parties used to allege, whether true or not, that they could not make wages sufficient to cover expenses, and, at the same time, to maintain themselves. 10.692. Did not some say so whether true or not? — Yes. 10,093. And wlien they said so other parties objected to go into their shops to work the webs out at a rate of wages whicli the inmates of the shop had refvised ? — Yes. 10,694. When you came to take charge of the premises of that house that became bank- rupt, you found a number of weavers with webs all fitted up and in the course of working, by which they might have made 8s. in the week, and yet would not go on with their work ? — Yes. 10,095. Were many respectable weavers on the relief fund? — I believe some respectable weavers were on it. 10.696. Would they have received relief if they could have got employment and refused it ? — I do not think it. 10.697. Were many out of employment able to maintain themselves without going on the fimd ? — Yes. 10.698. How did they live ? — Some of them got small advances by members of kirk-ses- sions, a number depended on their savings in the bank ; and others who had no resources of that kind, being known to be men of good character, had credit in shops. 10.699. Do you know if they had to pay it back at a large rate of interest ? — No. 10.700. The shopkeepers did not charge interest ? — No ; no advantage was taken of them. 10.701. Do you know if these men are now paying the shopkeepers ? — Yes ; and many of them that were in ai-rear are paying up the rents. 10.702. Have these rents been paid to you? — I have received them from themselves partly, and partly through a sub-factor. 10.703. It consists with your knowledge that these rents have been paid ? — Yes. 10.704. You are actuary to the savings' banks ? — Yes. 10.705. Has that institution been of much advantage to the working classes ? — I think so. 10.706. Do you find that when a man has deposited money he becomes anxious to increase it?— Yes. 10.707. Did the number of depositors fall off during the last years? — They fell off. 10.708. In regard to the amount of balances last year, were they greater or less ? — Less. 10.709. And were they the year before that less than the previous year ? — Yes. 10.710. Do you attribute that decrease to the pressure of the times, or to any other cause ? — There were three causes in operation during the last two years, one of them was the dis- tress in the town ; another that operated strongly with them was the want of confidence in the bank. 10.711. From whence had that want of confidence arisen ? — From newspaper paragraphs in the town and neighbourhood. There was a run on us for gold chiefly tlirough chartist influence. 10.712. Was the credit of the bank affected by any returns required from government ? — No, there were statements in the newspapers regarding the savings' banks for two successive years by Mr Hume, that had an effect. It was cliiefly by agitating the subject, — it was no statistical statements that had any effect. 10.713. You have another cause to mention of the decrease in the deposits? — ^Yes, the high rate of interest allowed by the other banks — four and a half per cent, by the town of Paisley savings' fund, and five per cent, given by the tnistees for the river Cart. 10.714. Did the Town bank and Cart bank remain solvent ? — No, they both failed. 10.715. What is the proper denomination of the bank that you took charge of? — The national security savings' bank. 10.716. What is the precise name of the town's bank? — The to\\'n's savings' fund. 10.717. Are you aware whether individuals ever confounded the town's bank and your bank together ? — Yes, many. 10.718. And put their money into the town's bank by mistake? — Yes. 10.719. Then, when the town's bank failed, did that shake the confidence of tlK! people in your bank ? — Yes ; during the two or three weeks that succeeded the suspension of payment by the town's bank, I paid out about 3000Z., partly in gold. The Town and Cart banks having suspended payments, the demand on the national savings' bank became the greater. Many individuals drew money during the dull trade, although they did not need it them- selves, and lent it to their relations. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 587 10.720. Is your savings' bank made use of aa a provident bank, with a view to deposit money, and draw it out to pay rent ? — Yes, on this account the demands are larger in May and November, than on the other months. It does not affect us so much in that way as it would do in good times, because fewer houses are not let by the year now to operatives. Small rents arc now paid monthly or quarterly. At last balance of the savings' bank, on 20th November 1842, I remarked the small number of weavers who had been depositing, — only 116 ; but since the 20th November, there have been 316 accounts opened in the bank books, and of these twenty-eigh,t are weavers. These twenty-eight added to the former depo- sitors, brino- us up to within five of the number of weavers in 1840. You will observe in this table in our fifth annual report, which I beg to give in, that more than a third part of the depositors are below 51. 10.721. What class do they belong to ? — They are not classified according to their trades. 10.722. Have you anything farther to add ? — No, I think that the feeling in the town re"^rding the national savings' banks has been greatly improved since the suspension of the other banks refeiTcd to. There is much more confidence now in the national security savings' bank. Ex;uiiiiia(iti- A. >I.)-lge. 1 >Jay 1843. ABSTRACT of the ACCOUNT of the Treasurer of the GENERAL KIRK-SESSION of PAISLEY, for the Year ending 31st May 1842. Debtor. To Income for the year, viz. — Collections at the churches, Extraordinary do., ... Proportion of Collection at Gaelic Chapel, Fees of Proclamation of Banns, Interest on Greenlee's Bequest, Do. on Robertson's Bequest, ... Amount of Mrs Robertson's Bequest now added to the Session Funds, in consequence of the death of Mag- dalen Pollock who was life-rented in the same, Rent of Pew in Middle Church, £525 19 H 93 12 5 61 2 9 1 20 8 9 To Balance due to Bank of Scotland, Do. Treasurer, ... 85 11 6 4| £716 2 Oi 96 6 4| £812 8 5 Creditor. By Balance from last year, ... By Expenditure, viz.,— Payments to Regular Poor, ... £417 Payments to Occasional Poor, ... 62 Payments to Nursing List, ... 51 Clothing and Shoes, New Year's Gift to Poor, ... Coffins and Grave-digging, Subscription to Eye Infinnary, Annuities paid from Greenlee's Bequest, , . . Paid for Teaching, Fees to Presbytery Clerk, ... Do. to Synod Clerk, Do. to Church Officers, Salary to Clerk of General Session, Do. to Treasurer of Do., Wine at Communion Services, Bread at Do. Do. Removing Seats at Do., Cleaning Linen, &c., at Do., Gas at Meetings, Printing and Stationery, Sundries, Interest on Bank Account, £71 13 10^ 7 15 1 6i £531 16 93 1 2 9 10 1 1 15 4 10 21 2 3 4 2 4 3 3 13 12 10 2 12 10 11 15 19 17 11 15 19 6i 1 6 6 6 8 6 4 4 8 11 740 14 62^ £812 8 5 Paisley SOth June 1842. — This account and relative vouchers compared and examined by us, and found correct. (Signed) THOMAS CARLILE. ARCHIBALD GARDNER. 588 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFOKE THE Examinations. Paisley. Mr A. Hodge. 1 Mav 1843, NUMBER of POOR on the RoU of GENERAL SESSION at Ist June 1842, and rate of allowance to each. 2 at 28. per month, . . , 7 28. 6d, 28 2 57 6 35 38. 38. 6d. 48. 48. 6d. 58, £0 4 17 6 4 4 7 11 8 17 8 15 £27 2 6 1 at 58. 6d. per month, U 6s. 68. 6d, 78. 2 2 3 2 1 108. 12a. 22 Average to each Pauper per month, ,,. Do. Do. per week, 42 Nursing poor, monthly 6/. 148. 6d. ; average, 3s. 2fd.; per >Ycek, mi £0 4 1 4^ 0^ 7 £0 5 6 3 6 13 14 14 10 12 £7 14 6 REPORT of the ACCOUNT COMMITTEE of the GENERAL SESSION for the year ending 3l8t May 1842. Your ComnMttee submit to the attention of the General Session, the follo\\dng States : — I, CoMPABATiVE State of the Income and Expenditure for the year, ending 31st May 1841 and 1842, Income. Ordinary Collections, ... ... ... Extraordinary Collections, 1st January, Proclamation Fees, Fees of Mortcloth, (five years,) Pew in Middle Church, Interest on Bequests, ... ,.. XiCQUcsr^ «•« •«« ••• •■• Total, ... 1841. 1042. £569 18 U £530 19 H 90 19 93 12 61 14 61 2 5 16 8 19 6 8 9 10 10 - 20 £739 6 n £716 2 (U Expenditvre. Ordinary Poor, ... Extraordinary Poor, 1st January, Clotliing and Shoes, ,,. Coffins and Graves, ,., ... Bequests, . ... ,.. Sundries, , Amount of Debt paid, ,.. Amount of Debt increased, . , . 1841, £504 11 2 90 19 11 9 5 5 1 11^ 10 87 1 1 £709 2 7i 30 4 £739 6 7^ 1842. £531 3 93 12 16 13 1 10 9 88 15 11 U 1 £740 14 24 12 6i £716 2 Oi II. Comparative State of Collections. 1841. 1842. Decrease. High Church, £227 1 MidcUe Church, 135 12 9.J St George's Churoh, ... ... 202 5 3 £212 11 8 118 3 8i 195 3 lOi £525 19 3i £14 8 5 17 19 Of 7 1 U £564 18 1| £39 8 lOi III. Comparative State of Poor on the List. 1841. Monthly Payment. Yearly Payment. Number of Regular Poor, 152, 21 Nursing Cases, ... 47, £33 7 4 15 6 £400 4 57 6 £38 2 6 £457 10 I POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 589 Cqmpaeative State of Poor on tlie List, — Continued. Number of Regular Poor, 23 Nursing Cases, 1842. 159, 42, Montly Payment. £34 17 6 14 £41 11 6 Yearly Payment. £418 4 80 14 £498 18 Your committee regret the continuance of a falling off in the collections. Last year the decrease was 39^. 5s. 2d,, and this year the decrease is 39Z. 8s, lOd,, making a total decrease in two years, in the main branch of the income of the session, of 78^. lis., while the demand on the session funds has been increasing. Your committee are exceedingly desirous that the debt of the session should not be in- creased, but rather, if possible, wiped off. The third of the above tables, however, shows that there is an increased charge on the list of regiUar and nursing poor at present, of 41Z. 8s. a year, over last year. The yearly charge at 1st June 1841, being 457/. 10s., and at Ist June 1842, 498/. 18s. The account committee make these statements for the grave consideration of the general session. Paisley, 302 1 9 7 P'arm Servants, ...... 24 378 17 7 32 476 U 26 428 17 4 8 Minors, 295 2,4!9 15 275 2,007 9 244 2,005 4 9 9 Unmarried Fomales, 4a5 4,841 10 418 4,674 12 4 335 4,2«2 3 11 10 Married Females, •2(J4 3,627 U 5 268 3,574 11 240 3,587 8 3 11 Slioplieepers, Clerljs, Dressmakers, Teach- ers, and others, Total, . 302 4,944 17 280 4,643 1 1 1 286 4,9S5 4 22,169 11 2107 25,006 19 1 1958 23,773 5 9 16.92 Examinations. Paisley. Mr A. Hodge. 1 May 1843. The following TABLE contains an Analysis of the Balances, and comparison of same for tlu'ee years : — At 20th Nov. 1840. At 20th Nov. 1841. At 20th Nov. 1842. No. Amount. No. Amount. No. Amount. 1. Private Dbpositors. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. Balances not exceeding £5, . , , 889 1,563 17 10 815 1,5.94 11 6 689 1,280 6 5 — above £o and not exceedine £10, . 384 2,574 10 10 369 2,.549 5 301 2,088 10 10 „ __ 10 _ __ 20, . 399 5,350 18 336 4,914 13 3 307 4,110 8 1 ^ ™ 28 ^~ ^ 50, . 3.59 10,439 15 1 337 9,829 19 10 318 9,189 17 4 .50 100, . V6 5,077 17 4 68 4,580 10 69 4,575 10 ™ „ 100 __ __ 130, . ^ 3 344 19 11 / 761 6 2 „- __ 150 ^ ^ 200, . ~ ~ „~ 1 164 1 4 2107 25,006 19 1 19.58 23,773 5 9 1692 22,169 11 2. SoeixTiKS. Charitable Institutions, , , 31 1,156 12 8 31 911 13 7 31 1,091 1 9 Friendly Societies, , . Total, . 19 1,041 3 10 13 698 15 6 19 485 2157 27,204 15 7 2002 25,383 14 10 1743 23,745 12 9 Provost HendersoUy Examined : — 10.723. {Mr CampheU.).— You are provost of the town of Paisley ? — Yes. 10.724. How long have you been so? — Eighteen months. 10.725. You are well acquainted with all classes of the community in Paisley ? — Yes. 10.726. Not speaking of the extraordinary distress in Paisley for some time past, but speaking of the general condition of the people, do you think the condition of the poor im- proving or falling off of late years ? — ^Decidedly falling off. 10.727. And tliat without being attributable to any periodical distress ? — The wages of the labouring classes have been generally reducing since the time I have first known them ; and consequently the condition of the people has been falling off. 10.728. To what do you attribute the deterioration in their condition ? — I would say, Mr Henderson. 590 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFORE THE Kxauiiiistious. speaking of direct causes, while the wages have been going down, provisions in general have Paisley. been on tlie advance in price ; and, without going into abstract reasoning, I woidd say that ~ T" is the obvious cause. 1 May 1843. 10,729. What is the state of education among the children of the poor? — It has been a great deal worse within the last twenty years. A great portion of them are not taught read- ing and writing. Twenty-five years ago there were scarcely any natives of the town who were not so taught. 10.730. Do you think it desirable that the education of the poor should be attended to and improved ? — There is great need of it. 10.731. Do you think that improvement in the education of the children of the poor would tend to improve the habits of the people? — I am not aware that any improvement in their education would improve their condition, — they require to get the means of supporting them- selves improved, as well as their education. 10.732. I do not ask in regard to adults, but in regard to the probable effects of educar- tion in enabling the younger proportion of the jiopulation to improve their condition after- wards ? — It would be a benefit, no doubt. 10.733. Is there anything you could suggest for improving the condition of the adults ? — I can suggest nothing without going into })articular cases. I woidd say that we need some means of increasing the trade of the country. 10.734. In regard to the present poor laws would you suggest any alteration ? — Yes, seve- ral alterations. First, I think it is necessary that in such a biu-gh as this we should have the means placed at our disposal of assessing proprietors whether absent or present. Proprietors if they reside beyond the bounds of the burgh, pay no poor rates ; whereas, if they reside within the burgh, they do pay poor rates. In the landward part of the parish proprietors must pay for tlieir property whether they reside in the landward part or not. We find that there is, in all, property rented at 56,000Z. within the burgh, and of this amount of property there are 12,204/. of rental, wliich is paid into the hands of non-resident proprietors, who, of course, pay no poor rate. That is one alteration which I think necessary. In the landward part of the town the property pays, let the proprietor reside where he may, — this is in the Abbey parish. Then the next thing I think necessary in the way of a change, would be in regard to the relief of persons not born in the town. Paupers should be supported by the place of their birth. 10.735. You would make birth the rule of settlement ? — Yes. 1 0.736. If you could not make it the place of birth, would you extend the present period for obtaining a settlement ? — It would be an improvement ; but unless we go farther it would do little good. People come into manufacturing towns in their youth, and labour for a cer- tain time, and break down, and arc left upon us. The poor classes have been in such a state during the last ten or fifteen years in particular that they have it not in their power to con- tribute to the poor rates. 10.737. Have you known cases of persons coming into town to obtain a settlement ? — In the course of the last twelvemonths I have met with a few natives of Ireland who refused to go away, although I offered them the means of doing so. I sent a considerable number away during the late severe distress we have had. 10.738. How do you send them away ? — Giving them the means. I sent to the High- lands and to Ireland, about 100 persons at the close of last year, during the months of November and December. I paid them at the rate of 3s. per head, including their passage. ■^ 10,739. Do you ever find them return to you ? — Not any of those last ones ; but many at other times returned. 10.740. Do you find that any farm servants have come from the neighbourhood when unable for country work, in order to gain a settlement ? — There are no poor rates whatever in the piirishes of Kenfrew, Inchinnan, Erskine, and Houston ; and when the farm servants in these parishes are thrown idle, they have no alternative but to come into town, and pick up what labour they can obtain ; and afterwards faU a burden on the parish. 10.741. Have you yourself known such cases ? — A few. 10.742. Could you give us the names of any of the parties ? — Some of the names I find on our parish roll ; but 1 leave this to James Brown, the overseer, to answer — he was to make inquiry. I have a list here of thirty-five persons that the governor of the hospital has made up since he was examined, who have resided in the town fi-om one and a half to sLx years, who have no claim on this parish, but who are broken down by disease, and we are obliged to maintain them, although we have no paiish to throw them on — they are in a state of disease and cannot be removed. 10.743. Have you no claim on the parishes of these persons? — We can find no parish for them. The next suggestion I would make in regard to improving the poor laws would be, to extend the district for assessment, taking in those local districts which are entirely agricultural, and the servant portion of which, when they are thrown out of labour, naturally fall back on the town. I had an application made to me to-day, which I may mention as an instance of that cliiss of persons, it was from 125 labourers, destitute, and who can find no employment. I had a petition from them to-day at the county meeting, claiming relief. They have resided in town most of them five years and upwards, and were employed prin- cipally in the public works, and on the farms. 1 0.744. Wliat do you call the pubhc works ? — Such as coal works, print works, bleachfields, and some alum works, which we have in the Abbey parish. 10.745. How far would you extend the district for the maintenance of the parochial poor ? — We would require to embrace three or four landward parishes at least. I may mention that in this town just now we find it almost impossible to maintain the poor. We POOR LAW INQUIRY CO:VBIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 591 are most anxious to increase the allowance ; but owing to the general poverty of the people who have to contribute, we find it impossible to increase the rate of assessment. 10.746. And you think the allowance by tlie session and town's hospital inadequate ? — I should tiiink it is not more, on an average, than the one-half of what they would require. 10.747. What do you think woidd be an adequate allowance to a poor man past work ? — At present from 2s. 6d. to 3s. 6d. per week, in this part of the country should be the lowest. 10.748. Have you any other suggestion on this point to make ? — No. 10.749. You were examined in the House of Commons in regard to the unemployed poor? — Yes. 10.750. Have you any farther statement or information that you can give to the Com- mission which you have acquired since then In regard to that class of Individuals ? — I think it Is of importance that some provision should be made in Scotland for the able-bodied por- tion of the population when thrown destitute. We have no local means of supporting them just no>v, excejjt by subscription ; and for the want of a compulsory mode of assessing for their relief, it is Impossible to raise the means locally to maintain them. And when these depressions fsdl on us It Is Impossible for us to do anything for them. 10.751. Does this support fall more on the generous than on others of equal wealth ? — Invariably. 10.752. Is It pretty much the same class of people that subscribe to aU charities ? — Yes. 10.753. Woidd there be no danger In making provision for able-bodied men — would it make tiiem less careful of their means when In employment ? — It might have that tendency If not very well guarded against ; but if a proper test of labour were provided It would not have thiit effect. 10.754. Have you thought of a proper test ? — I would not be Inclined to make the work- house a test as in England. It would be more beneficial to the popidatlon to give them work In their own houses than to separate families. 10.755. Would the more respectable class of artlzans take relief In a workhouse unless reduced to the lowest poverty ?— No portion of them whatever Avould go In except under the greatest necessity — It would be contrary to their feelings — they wovdd almost suffer starvation rather than go to the workhouse. I may mention that within the last two months, since the relief committee reduced their allowance to something about one penny per head, whole families complained of being in starvation, and were obliged to beg. I proposed as an alternative, that if they chose to allow themselves to be put Into 2)rIson for public begging, where they would be supported, we would put them in ; but none of them would go that length. Upon this point of provision for the able-bodied poor, I may mention that during the year 1829, and the year 1839 and 1840, we had slight depressions of trade In the town, whereby several hundreds of the workmen were Idle, and In destitution. The distress had not then extended to that amount as to call for a great public subscription on their behalf. At that period we attempted to induce the overseers of the poor to extend relief, by reliev- ing children and widows ; but they declined as the guardians of that fund, and they, along with the magistrates and town-council, raised a subscription amongst themselves to main- tain that class during those different periods. This was partlcidarly the case in 1839. 10.756. Do kirk-sesslons never give casual relief to able-bodied men out of the assessment fund ? — A little In that way to their own members ; but It Is collected from wealthy mem- bers. Nothing Is given from the collections at the church doors. 10.757. {Mr Twisleton.) — In regard to the able-bodied, are you aware what is the prac- tice in England, In manufacturing districts — is It your Impression that relief is only given In ■workhouses to such persons ? — No ; but they make It a test. If they suspect imposition. Many people there are destitute from the difficulty of finding a parish, and getting themselves properly on the roll. In Bolton I found a girl In the prime of life rising from a bed of shavings in a cellar ; not an article was in it besides. I made Inquiry why she had not got on the poor's fund, and was told that she could not get any parish. Her father was bom in London. This was her own statement. 10.758. Had you any communication with the relieving officer as to the truth of this statement ? — No. 10.759. You said there were no assessments in the four neighbouring parishes for the maintenance of the poor — do you know the sums raised in these parishes by voluntary con- tributions and collections ? — No ; but I think you will get a return of the sums In the town- clerk's office. 1 0.760. In regard to such parishes, do you think there is a difficulty in labourers obtain- ing cottages to reside in, when they are past work ? — Yes. I know there has been no Increase almost in these four parishes for the last twentv or thirty years. In population ; and farmers, when they break down In their farms, and labourers, when unable to work, come in great numbers to the town. The practice In this part of Scotland is, to employ as farm-servants none but single men, and they live In the fann-houses ; and when they marry, they come into town to obtain what labour they can find. There are no cottars' houses to the farms. 10.761. Do they prefer coming to Paisley to residing In the villages around? — Yes; because In the villages there is no general labour or jobbing to be had. They would have no chance at all In smaU villages. 10.762. Do you know Individual cases of labourers who have thus come to Paisley from rural parishes ? — I have known many of them ; but I am not aware particularly of many of them that have broken down, and gone on the poor's roU. The return that will be given In wIU show the whole of them. I find, from looking at the return, that there are not so many ■who have come Into town, and gone on the roll, as I expected. I have another suggestion to make in regard to the present poor law of Scotland. There is one evU greater than all Exaiiiiuations. Paisley. Mr Henderson. 1 May ia4;i. ^592 SnNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examiiiatiuns, Paisley. Mr Heiiilerson. 1 May 1843. Mr W. Millnr. the evils I have yet mentioned, viz., the want of a provision for the able-bodied in times of destitution and depression in trade. The country cannot jtq on properly without some change to that eft'ect taking place. It is a most distressing state of things that we have been placed in here, since the year 1819. "We had distress and destitution in 1826 ; we had a partial depression in 1829 and 1831 ; we had another great depression in 1837 ; we had partial depression again in 1839 ; and we have had the most serious of all depressions, that has lasted from 1841 to 1843, when society has been almost turned upside down for want of means to maintain the able-bodied poor of the popidation. 10,763. The inhabitants of Paisley are pretty well employed now ? — The weavers arc pretty well employed just now ; but all the other trades are stUl overstocked ; and it is difH- cult for men to get employment. ] 0,764. Has there been any increase in intemperance lately ? — I have no doubt that more money is s])ent in liquor since the trade grew better. 10.765. Is there an undue proportion of public houses in the town ? — No, I find from one data, which is looked up to, the number of licensed houses that were in this county in the year 1785, we had 750 licensed houses ; and at present we have from 1200 to 1300. Since 1785 the population has increased to three times the amount, while the number of licensed houses has not doubled ; and during the last four or five years, the number of licensed houses has been going down very fast. 10.766. Have you anything else to suggest ? — No. I beg to mve in this Abstract of the number and description of poor on the Paisley poor's rate, 1st Jiuy 1840: — 1. Inmates of hospital, bom in Paisley, ... ... ... ... 97 2. Inmates of hospital, born in other towns and parishes of Scotland, ... 74 3. Inmates born in England, ... ... ... ... ... 2 4 Inmate born in Malta, ... ... ... ... ... 1 5. Inmates born in Ireland who have spent the best of their days in Paisley, 11 G. Inmates born in Ireland, who were past fifty years of age, and partly dis- abled when they came to Paisley, ... ... ... ... 7 7. Outdoor poor born in Paisley, ... ... ... ... ... I53 8. Outdoor poor born in other towns and parishes of Scotland, ... 149 9. Outdoor poor, natives of Ireland who have spent the best part of their days in Paisley, ... ... ... ... ... ... 27 10. Outdoor poor who are natives of Ireland, and were past forty years of at^e, some of them past seventy years, and most of them partly disabled when they came to Paisley, ... .. ... ... ... 91 11. Outdoor poor born in England, ... ... ... ... ... 2 12. Outdoor poor bom in France, .. ... ... ... ... 1 13. Outdoor poor born in America, ... ... .., ... ... 1 424 Mr Walter Millar, Superintendent of Poor in Abbey Parish, Examined : — 10.767. {Mr Twisleton.) — You are superintendent of the poor in the Abbey parish ? — Yes. 10.768. How is the body constituted that administers relief in it ? — In the month of June the annual meeting takes place, when the heritors make choice of overseers. They also elect oflBcials, viz. treasurer, collector, and superintendent. The original meeting consists of the heritors and kirk-session. 10.769. How many overseers do they elect ? — In general about twenty-eight. 10.770. And these twenty-eight constitute the board, having officers under them to dis- tribute relief? — Yes. 10.771. And you are superintendent whose duty it is to visit cases by desire of the over- seers ? — Yes. 10.772. And likewise to pay the occasional poor? — Yes. 10,77.3. The permanent poor are paid by Mr liobertson ? — Yes. 10.774. Is it your duty to inspect cases of occasional and permanent poor ? — Yes. 10.775. "Will you state the amount of the allowances ? — It varies. There are tiunilies who may have a little money coming in to them from the laboxu* of some of tlieir number. An old man past work, not bed-rid, has from 2s. 6d. to 3s. a week. Providing he has no person to attend to him, and that he is quite disabled from working we pay more. In many cases we send such persons to the town's hospital. "We jiay for them there to the amount of 4s. a week, and give them such clothing as they require, and other necessaries, — even wine Avhen it is required ; but I believe twenty per cent, has been taken oflF this payment owing to the present price of provisions. 10.776. You give the same allowance to an old woman ? — Sometimes old women have friends or children that may do a little for them, and in that case the aliment is less. 10.777. That applies also to old men ? — Yes. 10.778. Do you give relief to a -widow with one child? — No, unless she is in trouble, or sick, generally ; but to some of them we must gi\e a little, to prevent them from deserting their children. 10.779. "VA'hat do you allow to a widow with four children, imder ten years of age? — ■ 3s. a week. 10.780. You give Is. a week for each child above one? — Yes; but circumstances may occur which cause the allowance, in such a case, to be less ; for instance, Mhere the mother POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 593 is working a little, or where some branch of the family may be able to do a little ; and Examinations. these circumstances we take into account. Paisley. 10,781. Can you state whether the allowance iu your parish is gi-eater or less than that ^j^ wUillar which is given in adjoining parishes? — It is greater than the allowance in any other part of 'i May 1843. Scotland that I know. 10,7(S2. Do you Snd that, in corresponding with other parishes, they do not give the sanie allowance to your poor that you do to theirs ? — Yes ; all parishes with which we correspond confess that themselves. 10,783. In regard to the allowances given in your parish to old people, do you think they are generally adequate ? — I do not. 10 784. Includin" other means of subsistence? — In some cases they may be adequate in this way ; but, generally, they are not. 10 785. To what class of persons are the allowances not adequate? — -To old, frail women who have no jjerson to look to for assistance, and who have no resource but what they get from the parish, 2s. (id. a week is quite inadequate for a poor frail woman who has her house-rent to pay off that sum ; and she must beg. 10,78(i. What would you consider a fair allowance for a poor person in that condition? — 4s. a week, with the prospect of her getting a little assistance from charitable persons. Old women occasionally get something from their old neighbours or acquaintance. 10.787. What woidd you consider to be a fair allowance to a widow with four children under ten years of age ? — To an industrious woman, who might be able to work a little, the oldest child being able to take care of the other three, I would consider 4s. a week to be a fair allowance ; but in many cases it would be far better if we had a poor house. In many cases the money is no sooner got than it is gone, the children getting nothing by it. 10.788. Would it be desirable to refuse all relief except in a poor house, if you had g)ich an institution ? — No, because it would be grievous to put respectable old men and women into a workhouse. 10.789. But you think there is a class of persons to whom relief should be given in no other way? — Yes. 10.790. Is the education of the children of widows attended to? — Not to the extent that I would wish. Some of the heritors find great fault with the expenditure. We are limited to 30Z. a year ; and that docs not go far. We get teachers to teach the children for Is. 6d. per quarter. Sometimes we go a little beyond 30Z. a year. But I consider, at present, that the education of the pauper children is almost completely neglected. Education is the great means of keeping down pauperism ; of this I am thoroughly convinced. 10.791. In regard to the advantage of a poor house, does your opinion arise from what vou observe in the town of Paisley, — or on what is it formed ? — It is formed on what has come under my own notice, of poor cases which have been brought on by the misconduct of the parties who abuse their allowance. If we had a poorhouse to put such people in, it would tend to redeem them, and render them good members of society. I have known people desert their children ; whereas, if we had such a house, the whole blame would be on us if they were not attended to. 10.792. Is the desertion of children increasing? — Not to the extent it was the year that I came in, 1840. That year I detected twenty-two cases of desertion; and in some cases I had to commit the parents to prison. This was done at a great expense, as we had to ali- ment them in prison. They knew that we can do more to them in the way of punishment than putting them in jail for debt. 10.793. You think it desirable to have some alteration in the law so as to give greater facility of punishing those who desert their wives and children ? — Yes. In many cases the children get little or no benefit from what the parents get. ' I have known mothers getting both clothes and money for the children, and leaving them crying for bread. 10.794. You think it desirable that you should have a power for punishing not only on account of desertion of children, but for neglecting to maintain them properly ? — Yes. 10.795. How are orphans generally treated in the Abbey parish? — Remarkably well. We have a number of respectable old women willing to take them. We allow the children 2s. a week, education and clothing. 10.796. Where do these women live ? — Throughout the town. 10.797. Do you visit them ?— Yes. 10.798. How often ? — .Just as I please, — it may be twice in the week, or in the month. We have two or three children in Kirkintilloch that I take delight in seeing occasionally. Both the orphans and the other paupers M'cre assembled in the Abbey session-house about a yenr ago. 10.799. Is there any regular examination of the orphans to see that they are properly instructed ?— No. I go occasionally into some of the schools, and examine the children my- self. We have not so many orphan children on the roU at present that we had some time ago. Some benevolent people adopted a number of them as their own children. 10.800. In regard to lunatics, how do you deal with them ? — AV"e send confirmed lunatics to the asylum ; those not confirmed we send to the island of Arran, and sometimes to people in the country who are willing to keep them. 10.801. Can you state the number not sent to the lunatic asylum? — We have fifteen or sixteen not in the asylum. 10.802. How many have you in the island of Arran ? — ^Nine or ten. 10.803. What do you pay for their maintenance there ? — 4s. a week. For one we pay 5s. lie was a surgeon, and used to snuff a good deal. We thought it a pity to deprive him of this, and we granted him Is. a week additional. 4 G 594 MIS^UTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFORE THE Examiaations. 10,804. Are the iiinatici< visited periodically ? — Yes. I visited them five times List sum- Paisley. mer. 1 have been once there this suinmcr, and intend to go tliis week again. We have M . w Mil thirteen confined in the Paisley asylum ; five females, and the rest males. l' M.iv lij4*'^ 10,805. In regni-d to mothers of illegitimate children, do you relieve them ? — There are not many of them in the Abbey parish. There are one class of applicants that come under the head of desertion. In many cases they leave them for a day or two, and return and take tliem up. AVe assist them as we best can ; but bastardy exists to a great extent, and also prostitution. 10,80(5. Do you think this is in consequence of the poverty of the town ?— I am mucli afraid of it. I became a subscriber to Glasgow Lock Hospital. Girls have applied to me for admission there whom I never imagined would have fallen victims to such a state of disease. 10.807. Do you think it desirable to withliold rehef from destitute mothers of illegitimate children ? — I do in many cases ; but tlieu wc have the responsibility of tlie child upon us, and if anytiilng were going wrong with the ciiild I would consider myself to blame. 10.808. May not the withhokling of relief from them have a tendency to cause desertion, and drive them still more to bad conduct ? — The money that is given to such characters does more harm than good, in a great many cases. 10.809. In what way docs it do them harm ? — Because they are a class of Avomen who no sooner get the money than they send out from their dirty houses and purchase spirits with it. 10.810. "Would it be desirable to give them relief in a poorhouse ? — Yes; but I think it would be a great pity to put such characters in a poorhouse, unless they were comjjelled to work, and brought to a sense of their duty as parents. If they do not improve, they ought to be punished. A law should be enacted for punishing parents for deserting their children, or not treating them well. 10.811. AVhat is the number of paupers at present on the permanent list? — I should thiuk there would be upwards of 700. 10.812. And on the occasional list? — I cannot exactly say the number at present. 10.813. Can you say within fifty ? — I think we may calculate the mmiber of occasional poor to be about thirty. 10.814. Do you find that you can superintend sufficiently the cases on the list, or would you require additional assistance ? — If I had no other work to do, I could do it more efli- ciently. The parish is in extent nine miles by seven, and it takes a great deal of labour to- fo through it, and do justice to the cases ; but if I had not indoor work to perform, I would e quite able to do it efficiently. 10.815. Have you any statement of the birthplace of paupers on the roll receiving relief at present? — Yes, I have here a statement for the last year, from INlay 1841 to May 1842. [See appended to evidence.] 10.816. Can you say how long these individuals have resided in the Abbey parish before they received relief? — I could, by referring back to tlie different boolcs. I liave the place of birth marked in my visiting-book. I have not such a list made out, but I shall make one out, and send it to the Commission. 10.817. State the terms of application, and the steps taken by a person destitute applying for relief? — If application be made to me, in the first place, I desire the applicants to go to the overseer of tlie district in which they live, that the overseer may get acquainted with the applicants. They are then served with a schedule, which they are required to fill up. [See appended to evidence.] 10.818. The overseer visits the case ?— Sometimes he does ; when lie knows the parties perfectly well, he desires me to visit. 10.819. You must have the overseer's authority for visiting and inspecting? — Yes, unless it is a case of extreme destitution ; and when this happens, I go without waiting for an order, and report the case to the overseer of the district. Then it is a consideration on his part whether to give immediate relief, or let the case stand over till the first meeting of the overseers, when the case is laid before them. If he is inchned to give relief, he fills up this line, and the party is paid the sum marked after the name. [See appended to evidence.] In many cases they are served with a schedule, and I return to see the pai-ties ; and if we have the least doubt in the case, particular inquiry is entered into. I go to the parties, and say, " Well, how long have you resided in such a land, and with whom did you lodge ?" I make inquiries accordingly. I find out, in many cases, that they do not belong to the parish, and in such a case they receive a hue from my hand to the parish to which they belong. We give them assistance in the meantime, and are refunded afterwards by the parish to which they belong. 10.820. How often does the board meet? — Once a month. 10.821. And you give immediate relief in cases of lu'gency? — Yes. 10.822. And if not, the case is reserved for the consideration of the board ? — Yes. 10.823. If a party applying be an Irishman who has no settlement in Scotland, what do you do with such an applicant? — Relieve him. He gets the oflfer of being sent home at our expense. 10.824. "\Miat is the expense of sending a pauper from this to Ireland? — 3s. per head, if an adult ; half-price, if a youth, to Belfast. The sum increases when they go farther. 10.825. Do you find an unwillingness in any of them going to Ireland? — Yes, In a great many cases. 10.826. Do they assign any reason for this ? — Yes ; they say, " What would we do in Ire- land? — it is as well to starve hei"e as starve there." One threatened us with law if we would not give him relief; he had been here for four years. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 595 10.827. How many overseers attend at the monthly meeting generally ? — I think about fourteen or so. 10.828. Are the accounts audited? — Yes ; by a committee, once a month. 10.829. Is it the duty of the audit committee to consider the legality of the items expended ? — No ; they have merely to see that the accounts are cx)rrect. 10.830. Is there any general audit, independently of the monthly audit? — Yes ; it should take place on the Ist June. 10.831. As an accountant and auditor, is it within his province to consider whether the expenditure is legal ? — No. 10.832. There is no auditing of accounts in which the legality of the expenditure is taken into consideration ? — No ; this comes under the consideration of the regular board. 10.833. So that, if a regular board incurred illegal expense, there would be no mode of checkin"- it ? — In some cases they may find it their duty to refer to a general committee of heritors ; I mean the account committee, but in very few cases indeed. 10.834. Is it within their province to take it on themselves ? — They have done so lately. In regard to an account of Mr Millar's, for law expenses, they, not being acquainted with law charges, thought it their duty to remit it to the regular meeting of heritors. A com- mittee was appointed by the heritoi's to examine it ; they found it coiTect, the items being charged according to the table they had for their guidance. 10.835. That was an account which the account committee did not understand? — Yes. 10.836. Suppose the monthly committee expended money for the relief of able bodied per- sons, would it be a part of the duty of the account committee to consider whether the ex- penditure was legal or not ? — Yes. 10.837. Supposing it was illegal, what would they do? — There would be a dispute among them for a time. 10.838. Amongst whom? — The overseers. 10.839. Would the committee that looks over the accounts strike the item out ? — I do not think they exercise that power. 10.840. Have they the power ? — I do not think it. 10.841. Would Mr Boreland, at the end of the year, have the power of striking out the item ? — No. 10.842. From your experience, is there any point connected with the law of settlement that you think woidd require inipi-ovement ? — Yes ; it should be extended to at least seven years. I have thought often of ten years or birth ; but if the period were confined to seven years, we would have less difficulty in finding whether the parties making application had a right or not. Some of them li:i\e got so well acquainted with the law of settlement as to know it as well as ourselves. AVhen the thi-ee years expire they come to us and say, " I have been here three years and two days," or so many days. 10.843. Have you any othi'r point to suggest? — Yes; the assessment should be made im- perative over all the parishes in Scotland for the proper maintenance of their own poor. 10.844. What has led you to that conclusion ? — A man, and his wife, and family, residing for a considerable time in the parish of Inchinnan, came here broken down, and gained a settlement, and we have of course to pay them an allowance. They came here on the verge of pauperism ; and the parish of Inchinnan does nothing for them. 10.845. What you now state is intended to show that there ought to be an alteration in the law of settlement ? — Yes. 10.846. How does that bear on the question of assessment over all parishes ? — The poor that reside in that parish, or in other parishes around, come in here, and by the assistance of friends they contrive to live here three years, then they come on the poor's fund ; whereas if the period of settlement extended to seven years, and they had broken down before the expiry of the seven years, we could say to the parish from which they came, " here is your case ; the parties have lived here only six and one-half years," or whatever it might be. 10.847. How does that bear on the question of assessment in all the parishes ? What you state would be met by extending the term of settlement : supposing the term were extended to seven or ten years, do you think it desirable that there should be a compulsory assessment in all the parishes of Scotland ? — Yes. 10.848. Why ? — One class of landed gentlemen is saved from the payment of a farthing towards the support of the poor ; and another class gets all the poor together to support. I think the assessment should go over the whole of Scotland. 10.849. You mean a national assessment instead of a parochial one ? — Yes. 10.850. Who would have the distribution of the funds ? — It would be enacted that heri- tors in a certain locality should have the power of electing office-bearers to conduct those matters ; if not, government would do it. 10.851. Would the heritors be equally careful and prudent in distributing relief, if the funds were raised by an assessment over the country ? — I should think so ; I cannot see where it would make any difference. I may mention the case of a poor woman, a Ilighliind woman, who belonged to the parish of Kirkmichael, in Islay. She resided in Nitsliill. Her husband returned to his own parish in bad health, and died. She applied to our parish for assistance. I went out and examined the case, and found she had only resided here two years and nine months. I wrote to the minister of the j)arish to which she belonged, and he answered me, stating that there was no assessment in the parish, — that the poor were sup- ported mostly from the collections at the church door, which did not amount to more than 50s. a year. A good deal of correspondence took place in that case, and it was remitted to the consideration of their law agent ; and we got payment of the money by a bank order. Examinations. Paisley. Mr W. Millar. 1 May 1843. 596 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 10,852. Do you find generally a difficulty in obtaining repayment from unassessed pa- I'aislky. rislies ?— Not generally. 10.853. How does that supjwrt your view of the expediency of having a national assess- I'^Mav 1»4!$."^ ment ? — I could not say exactly ; 1 think it would be of importance. 10.854. "What other officers are there under the overseers in your parish besides yourself? — A treasurer, a collector. Mr Miller, the writer, is the law agent ; the collector's name is Mr M'Stravick. 10.855. Have you a copy of the letter from thb clergyman, to which you referred ? — I am not sure that I have. 10.856. {Mr Campbell.) — Do you inspect the whole poor yourself? — Yes. 10.857. Do you pay the occasional poor ? — Yes. 10.858. Of what description are they ? — Both old and young people. Old people who have not api)lied to the parish ; and, if found needful, they must have assistance till their case is brought before the meeting. In many cases tbey are taken on the permanent roll. ^ We supply young persons with occasional money. We have no schediJes for them, as it is to be hoped they will be better in a month or two. 10.859. Do you find many Irish amongst the occasional poor? — A great many. 10.860. Have you many Irish on your permanent roll ? — No, not so many as might be expected ; but they arc increased of late years to a small extent. 10.861. Was there an increase of Irish diu-ing the depression ? — Yes, there was an increase of applications during the stagnation. It happened that one of the members of the relief committee, Mr Robert Kirkland had a fund set apart for assisting parties to go to their own parishes. I got a nmnber of Irish sent away from that fund. 10.862. Do the overseers of the poor at the monthly meetings audit monthly the accounts of the treasurer ? — It is done by the committee the night before, and submitted to the meeting. 10.863. They do not object to any of the payments made ? — No. 10.864. Have the heritors power to object to payments if they were made contrary to law ? — Yes. 10.865. You propose a general assessment all over Scotland ? — Yes. 10.866. Woidd it be fair to make such a parish as Kirkmichael pay for the poor in another part of Scotland, by a general assessment ? — -1 propose that every parish in Scotland should have an assessment for their own poor. 10.867. Has not every pauper in the parish a right to relief, whether there be an assess- ment or not ? — Yes ; but some parishes have no assessment. 10.868. But money was found in Kirkmichael? — Yes. In Arran there are a good many poor ; but there is no assessment. They congregate on the Sabbath afternoon at the chm'ch, and receive among them the small moiety of collection. That is all they have to depend on, except what they get from their neighbours. 10.869. Have you lost nmch money by parishes not paying what you have advanced to their poor? — No. We have cases under dispute just now. 10.870. Are these cases of disputed settlement ? — Yes. 10.871. (Mr Twisleton.) — In the case from the highlands, although you obtained the money eventually, yet the clergyman pleaded that there was no assessment ? — Yes. 10>872. INIight not that contribute to produce an impression on your mind as to the effect of not having an assessment? — It might. 10.873. lie stated in his reply to your letter that there Avere no funds ? — Yes, farther than what was gathered at the church door, which was not more than about Is. in the week, ileal was bought with it, and the i>oor people got their share of it as far as it went. 10.874. He said he would consult his law agent? — Yes. 10.875. Are the accounts at the end of the year presented to the heritors for approval? — Yes. 10.876. Supposing the heritors objected to an item, what would be done? — I do not know. A law-suit might take place. Most likely it woidd be remitted to a connnittee in the first place. 10.877. Is there a vote passed, formally, by the heritors, approving of the accounts? — Yes. 10.878. Supposing a division among the heritors, and a vote on the subject, what would be done then — would an individual heritor have no redress ? — He might protest against the decision of the majority, and carry the question to another court. 10.879. He would have the power to take them into a law court? — Yes. 10.880. In the Abbey parish, the half of the sum is levied on means and substance? — Yes. 10.881. Are those who have to pay means and substance rqiresented among the heritors? — They may attend, but they have no right to vote unless they have property in the parish. 10.882. Su))posing one of them, not having property, objected to an item as illegal, would he have any remedy except going to law ? — No. 10.883. When a difference of opinion arises among heritors, whether an article is legal or illegal, I su]>[)()se they must settle it in a court of law ? — Yes. 10.884. They would have to go to law formally, as no one would have power at once to strike out an item as illegal? — Yes. 10.885. I presume that the management of the poor funds of the Abbey parish of Paisley are under the legal administration of the heritt)rs and kirk-session ? — Yes. 10.886. Is there much intemperance in Paisley? — Yes. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 597 10.887. Has it increased since the manufactories -were in employment here ? — Yes. Examinations. 10.888. Have you ever heard people say that they were determined to use their wages now Paisley. in such a way that they should not be obliged to fall back on the poor's funds again ? — No. „ T 10.889. What is the state of education in Paisley — is there a sufficient provision for the i'^May'1843'^ education of the poor ? — No. 10.890. Would it be of great advantage to have an efficient system of education? — Great. I know no landward parish more deficient in education than the Abbey parish. 10.891. Do you think a proper system of education for the poor would tend to raise their rank in society, and check pauperism ? — Yes. I know nothing that would tend more to the good of society than educating the children, and producing in them independent feelings. When they grow up uneducated they are careless, and cannot rouso their minds to look ^ after other employment than what they have been brought up to ; and they must mingle with other poor who are as uneducated us themselves. They never rise in society. Ahhey Parish Rooms, Paisley, 24:th May 1842. The following is a STATEMENT of the BIRTH-PLACE of each of the Poor on the Permanent Poor's Roll of the Abbey Parish of Paisley. In the Lowlands of Scotland, ... ... ... ... 474 Highlands of Scotland, ... ... ... ... 71 England, ... ... ... ... ... ... 6 Ireland, ... ... ... ... ... ... 100 Nova Scotia, ... ... ... ... ... 1 Out of the above G52, 210 were born in Paisley and Abbey Parish. 652 The following is a STATEMENT of the BIRTH-PLACE of each of the Poor on the Occasional Poor's Roll of the Abbey Parish of Paisley for the month of April last. In the Lowlands of Scotland, 102 Highlands of Scotland, 14 Ireland, 28 144 Out of the above 144, 37 were bom in Paisley and Abbey Parish. WALTER MILLAR, Superintendent of the Poor, Abbey Parish of Paisley. SCHEDULE. QUEKIES. 1. What is your name ? 2. Where were you bom? 3. What is your age ? 4. Ai-e you married ; when, where, and by whom ? 5. Have you any children to support — how many — of which ages — and how em- ployed ? (To be minutely specified.) 6. What is the number and age of your family ? (To be minutely specified.) 7. What is your employment, and how much do you earn per week ? 8. Where do you reside, and who is your present landlord ? 9. Where has your residence been for the Queries. last six years, and Avho have been your landlords ?* 10. Have you any relations who do, or might be expected to, assist you ? 11. Did you ever receive parochial or ses- sional aid, or make appHcation to any pai-ish for relief before the present ? 12. Have you any pension or sup2)ly from any society or individual — if so, specify the amount in each case ? 13. What are the particular circumstances of distress which cause the present ap- plication to be necessary ? 14. What place of worship do you attend, and how long have you attended the same ? 15. To whom do you refer for a certificate of character ? Landlord's Certificates must be produced along with this Schedule. We, the undei-signed, are satisfied that the above statement is correct, in so far as is known to us. Elder. Heritor or Feuar. Overseer. Abbey Parish Paisley, ] 8 The above case was tliis day duly considered at a meeting of heritors and kirk-session, and allowed, dismissed, per month or quarter. Chairman. This Schedule must be properly filled up, and properly signed, and sent to the Superintend- ent, Three Days before the Monthly Meeting. 598 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIiEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Paisley. Mr AV. Millar. 1 May 1843. £ DISTRICT PAISLEY, 184 Sir, — Pay the Bearer, , who lives at No. Street, the Sura , and charge the same to the occasional poor list of this District. Overseer. To the Treasurer or Superintendent for the Poor of the Abbey Parish of Paisley. DISTRICT PAISLEY, SiK, — Please to examine the case of , who lives in Street, who is making application for Parochial aid. To the Superintendent of the Poor of the Abbey Parish of Paisley. 184 Land, Overseer. 18 ABBEY, PAISLEY, I hereby authorize the Coffin Maker for the Abbey Parish to furnish a Coffin for Residing at No. aged years. Superintendent. Overseer. Mr PRATT, Undertaker, 32, Gauze Street. ABBEY, PAISLEY, I hereby authorize the Grave Digger for the Abbey Parish to fomish a Grave for Residing at No. aged years. 18 Mr M'PHERSON, Bailie, Abbey Yard. Superintendent. Overseer. Eer. Mr Brewster. JRev. Mr Brewster, Examined : — 10.892. (J/r Campbell.) — You are one of the ministers of the Abbey parish of Paisley ? — Yes. 10.893. In the discharge of your duties you have occasion to visit tlie poor, and you are well acquainted with their condition ? — Tolerably well. 10.894. In what comlition are they, — I mean those on the poor's roll ? — It is a large and difficult question to answer. Those on the poor's roll, I think, are not receiving nearly what can sustain them in life, and they are obliged to have recoiu-se to begging, and other means to obtain a sufficiency. 10.895. Wliat is your opinion of the effi^ct which such & system produces on tlieir moral feelings and conduct ? — I think that the poor having become convinced that it is the duty of the parish to support those of them at least who are disabled, or partly so, consider that there is an act of injustice on the part of those who are under an obligation to supply them with the means of life, in not doing so. That has a bad effect on them. They consider that those who are regarded as their superiors are not doing their duty to them ; and this may have a strong influence on their feelings and principles. An honest man, when he sees those from whom he expected the discharge of legal obligations, indifferent to the discharge of such obligations, feels himself aggrieved, and justice violated. It must have an injurious effect upon him, and I believe it has had In many Instances. 10.896. We have been told of the present state of allowances given by the Abbey parish, — would you jiropose any alteration in these allowances ? — A very considerable addition is necessary. 10.897. I speak entli-ely in regard to the parish poor? — The allowances are so very differ- ent, and vary so much in some cases, that I should feel a difficulty In answering the question generally. In some cases they may be considered as a subsistence merely, not Including lodging and clothes. In some cases tlicy would require to be trebled, others (piadrupled, others doubled, and in other cases an addition of one-third would require to be added to sus- tain life ; but I do not know that, out of the hospital, — In this parish, or in any parish in Scotland, so far as I am acquainted with the practice,^ — a sufficient allowance Is given. There are persons to whom it might be safe to increase their allowance, beciiuse they would make a good use of what they got ; but there are persons on the other hand, who would make a bad use of it. In regard to those who have families, it is the duty of the parish officers to see at least that the children are sufficiently supplied with food, clothing, and lodging, and in these cases, means should be taken to prevent abuse. In regard to tlie provision tor single persons, the law makes no distinction, and we should make no distinction ; and in all such cases, we ought to give the allowance in such a way as to prevent the abuse of it. Should a man be disabled, aud on the parish roll, and is accustomed to abuse the means given to him by drinking, I conceive it is the duty of the parish office-bearers, since the law makes no distinction, m giving what avIU sustain the pauper in life, to take such means as they have it in their power to take, In order to prevent abuse, — giving it, for instance, in food, POOR LAW INQUIRY COIMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 599 and frequently, not in monthly, but in weekly pajTiients. If, then, a man, when he gets the allowance that is necessary to sustain him in life, expends it in drink, we cannot help it ; but still we arc bound to give that man a sufficiency, because the law requires it. 10.898. Have you a workhouse in the Abbey parish? — No. 10.899. "Would it be useful to have such a house ? — Extremely useful, for the reception not only of the disabled, but the idle poor. There is a mixture of the two in every parish in Scotland. There must be cases where there is idleness and unwillingness to work, and in sucli cases the workhouse should be a test. 10.900. Would you pi-opose that the provident poor should live in their own dwellings, or in d\velling8 found for them ? — I would much prefer that they should live in their own dwellings. 10.901. Would you propose any change in the law of settlement ? — I have not considered the subject so as to be able to give an opinion. 10.902. Have you any suggestions to offer to us in regard to the management of the parochial poor? — The subject has occurred to me frequently. I have seen the way in which the system in this parish works, and, I believe, the way in which it will work in most other • i)arishes similarly situated. I would propose that those who have the distribution of the funds should be appointed and paid by government, because local ijifluence is so powerful, as to prevent the possibility of anything like a fair consideration of the cases of the poor. If you jiay a superintendent, for instance, like the P^nglish overseers, you find that he is elected, and dismissed, of course, by the heritors and kirk-session — those who have an interest in keeping down the rates ; and I find he is uniformly at their disposal. I would also dis- miss the kii'k-sessions for the same reason. The kirk-sessions and ministers have almost invarial)ly been under the influence of the heritors. For that reason I would trust neither to ministers uor kirk-sessions. If I be farther asked to speak on this subject, I would be able to prove to you, that in almost every instance, with few exceptions, ministers and kirk- sessions are in a great measm-e under the control of the wealthier part of the community ; and although the minister has no excuse for acting in this way — except, indeed, his antici- pated augmentation of stipend may have an effect — yet members of session, and other per- sons chosen as managers, have to pay assessment themselves, and are often determined by self-interest. I do not consider myself exaggerating. I could detail to you very miserable cases, — cases where the greatest possible misery existed, and where the grossest neglect had been committed, and in regard to which I could get no redress from any heritor, and very little sympathy. I would not trust, therefore, to those who are to pay. They would allow human beings in many cases to starve, to save themselves a few shillings. 10.903. Can you state any case of that to which you allude ? — Yes. First of all I brought two cases under the notice of the session— the cases of Widow Matheson and Mary Smith. They inquired, and drew up the following report : — " Paisley Abbey Session, 2d November 1840. " The session met, and was constituted with prayer; present. Rev. P. Brewster, moderator, Messrs J. M'Nabb, J. Findlay, John T. Thomson, D. Kerr, T. Henderson, and W. John- stone, elders, and Andrew Blaikie, session-clerk. " {later alia.) The committee appointed to take evidence in the cases of Widow Matheson and Mary Smith laid upon the table their Report. " The session having fully considered the evidence contained in the report, in regard to the above-mentioned cases, Mr M'Nabb moved that it is the opmion of the session, that there has been gross neglect on the part of the superintendent and overseers, in the cases of Widow Matheson and Mary Smith. This motion was seconded by Mr Johnstone, and being put to the vote, was carried unanimously. " The session then agreed to request, and hereby do request, the ministers to call a meet- ing of the heritors and ku-k-session with the least possible delay, in order that measures may be taken to prevent the recurrence of such neglect in future. " Extracted from the scroll minutes of session by (Signed) " ANDREW BLAIKIE, Session-CkrL" Such a meeting was called, but I got no redress ; on the contrary I was called before the church courts, and I was actually cast in the presbytery and synod. I did not carry the case, on account of the expense, to the General Assembly. I may mention that I brought a number of cases under the notice of the managers for the purpose of having the decision of the heritors and_ kirk-session in regard to them. I requested that two or three might be selected, and evidence taken of the facts. At the same time, I mentioned that there were numerous cases in the parish requiring attention. The report in regard to the two cases I beg leave to submit to the consideration of the Commission. Examinatiuns. Paisley. Rev. Mr Brewster. 1 May 1843. REPORT of a COiEMITTEE of SESSION appointed to inquire into the cases of Widow Matheson and Mary Smith. Widow Matheson's Case. Her daughter Margaret, being inteiTogated, declares, that previous to the month of Janu- ary last, her mother had been fourteen weeks ill and bedrid, during which time she made no application to the parish for relief; but falling out of work, and not being able to support herself and child, much less her mother, she told Mr Miller frequently, that, having no 600 ^HNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. work, and having put aAvay all the clothing and furniture she could spare, she was compelled Paisley. to ask parish relief for her mother. At this time, during frost and snow, they had neither Re M B- ■ ^^^ ^^^ light in the house, and no blankets on the bed, but only a piece of old j)ack8heet. 1 May 1843. ' ■M'" Miller's attention was directed to this by declarant. No clothing or bedding was given by the parish : only Is. a Aveek was allowed by the superintendent and overseer from the 4th of January till the 1st of March, when it was raised to Is. 6d. Her mother was allowed to remain without any covering but the piece of packshect for upwards of nine months in a state of severe illness. No blankets were given till lately, when they received a pair from Mr Hamilton, with a bed matt and a cotton sheet about a month ago, and more than nine months after the case was known and seen by the superintendent and overseer. She and her mother came to their present residence at last term. She again feU out of work, and, after some weeks, she again applied to the superintendent, and told him, that if he could not allow her more aliment, she coidd not bear to see her mother, as well as herself, starving on 7^d. a week. She explained that the aliment being Is. 6d, per week, and lOjd. of it being paid for rent, left only 7^d. for food and fire. She told the superintendent that she wovdd wait a few days that he might get some person to keep her mother. He asked an old woman who was passing along the street at the time if she would take charge of her, who, upon seeing her mother, refused to do so. She left her mother, and was absent about five weeks, keeping the house of another person. She called occasionally during that time, and assisted her mother. That the case was not relieved for six days after Mr Miller's know- ledge of it, except private relief from Mr Hamilton on the Thursday. Being specially in- ' terrogated, as to what her mother had said to Mr Brewster at a former examination, and when he requested her to be correct in her statement, she replied, that being on her death- bed, she would not state anything but what she believed to be tnie ; that six days past from the time she called in Mr Miller, until she crawled over to ISIr Hamilton's shop, the last two of which she had nothing but cold water. Her mother also explained, that there were a few cold potatoes in the house, of which she attempted to swallow a little, but could not. Notice was given to Mr Miller on the Mon- day, and relieved by Mr Hamilton on the Thursday afternoon, when the old woman made , her way over to his shop. Mrs Matheson being interrogated, stated, that between the time at which she called in ]\Ir Miller and the time he called back, only four days intervened, and that between the same time of his first coming to her, and her being obliged to go over to Mr Hamilton, two or three days elapsed. But upon farther interrogating her daughter and Mr Hamilton, with a comparison of dates by Mr Hamilton and Mr Henderson, it appeared that it was upon the fourth day, fi-om the time when she called in ]\Ir Miller, that she went over to Mr Hamilton, and that Mr Miller returned to her upon the sixth day fi-om his first seeing her. The above is a true copy of the report of the case of Widow jMatheson, as certified by the late Mr Blaikie, session-clerk of this parish. D. DUNLOP, Session-Clerk. This poor creature had no other assistance than what is stated here. Her daughter, a poor girl, had had the misfortune to have a natural child, but she was still attached to lier mother, and supported her mother, herself, and child, when she could get work. Mr Hamilton was a neighbour. The widow had removed from the burgh to the Abbey parish, and her residence was near Mr Hamilton's, who kept a shop opposite. She conceived herself dying from want. The daughter had been compelled by destitution to leave her mother, and could not attend her longer. Her mother lived in a state of extreme disease, bed-rid, A\itliout an attendant. Her back was horribly excoriated. The superintendent, calling accidentally on a person in the same house, she crawled out of bed — pointed to the boards and straw on which she had been lying — appealed to his humanity, and asked him if sevenpence halfpenny a week was sufficient for a creature in her condition. The superintendent went away without giving her anything, and did not return till after she had been relieved by Mr Hamilton, who is a very humane man. 10,904. That is a report of an investigation that took place before the session ? — Yes ; and it was unanimously agreed to. The end of this case should also be told. Tiie aliment was raised when the case became known, and a pair of blankets had been given. But still the poor woman foimd that she had not enough of clothing, and desired her daughter to state that to Mr Miller ; but he refused to give her anything. An additional blanket was refused from day to day. Her daughter took off" her own flannels and put them on her mother's breast. She died in a day or two after without having got an additional blanket, although it had been ordered by the doctor. The following is the other case I referred to, — that of Mary Smith. " She has a natural child between five and six years of age. Mrs Hart has known her for one and a half years, and gives her a character for industry and sobriety. She never applied to the parish, and disposed of her articles of furniture, — bed, blankets, &c., during the dull trade. Sometimes she had no work, and sometimes she earned not more than one shilling a week. Six weeks before last New Year's day, she was taken iU ; and on the Mondaj' after New Year's day she was confined to bed, when she appeared much emaciated ; oi', as de- scribed by one of tlie ^vitnesses, was gathered uj) like a wisp of straw, with her knees up to her chin, and with her child behind her crying from hunger. Her bed consisted of a ])icce of packshect between her and the floor, and an old printed bed-cover above her, her licad resting on a bit of cotton cloth, at which slie had been working. There was no fii'c in the room. About a week after she had taken to her bed, she ap[)lied to the parish by Mrs Mac- rOOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 601 robic, on a Friday, Avhen she was told that the superintendent was at Johnstone. Mrs Macrobie called a second time on Saturday morning at ten o'clock, and did not find him. She returned the same day about mid-day, when he was in the office, and told him that Mary Smith was badly, and iiad for the last two days only some ' water-gruel.' On Sunday Mrs Hart applied to Mr Hamilton, and got tea, sugar, and bread ; and on the Mon- day a half blanket, straw, a gown, a pair of stockings, a napkin, and a sixpence in money, for which Mr Hamilton has not asked payment. Afterwards Mr Hamilton sent a letter to Mr Miller, informing him of the case. Mr Miller called on Tuesday, and took a statement of it, but gave no relief. He returned next day with two of the overseers, Messrs Barclay and Hay, and after some inquiiios, said they would send a surgeon, which they did the same day, but still gave nothing. The surgeon told her she had got a cold, and prescribed some medicine, and beef-tea, or broth. On Thursday afternoon Mr Hay called, and left 2s. At the time the committee visited her last week, she had only straw to lie on, and half a blanket, both of Avhich were got from Mr Hamilton, as before stated, The overseers allowed her 2s. per week for herself and boy, besides paying her rent, and occasionally, first a Gd. and afterwards Is. per week for three weeks. Afterwards the father of the child allowed 2s. j^er week, and about the end of April or the beginning of May, she was taken to the town's hos- ])ital, where she remained for four months. Her present aliment is 2s. 6d. per week, and Is. for the child by the father." The above is a true copy of the report of the case of Mary Smith, as certified by Mr Blaikie, the late session-clerk of this parish, D. DUNLOP, Session-Clerk. I can prove that this was a case of very great destitution. It is a very common thing for the superintendent to delay calling after he gets notice of a case. When application is made to the overseer, he sends a line to the superintendent, ordering him to investigate the case ; and, as I have said, the suj)erintendent very frequently delays calling for days, and when he does call, gives notliing, except in cases of great emergency, where life is at stake, and not always then. I have several cases of that kind to which I can refer. I may mention, for instance, the case of two persons Fairlie, at Maxwelton, father and son. The son has a wife and several children. All of them were seized with fever. Is. 6d. was given for one week; 2s. were given at another time ; and nothing upon other applications. The mother had been confined lately before, and brought an addition to the fiimily. I can prove to you a case where the mother had a child at the breast, and had been forty-eight hours without food. There was another case to which I beg to call your attention, the case of a Mrs Picken in Charleston. (I have a great number of other cases which I would not think of troubling you with.) This was the case of a poor woman who had been deserted by her husband. She had two children, both infants, one four years of age, the other two. She had been ill for a considerable time, apparently with consumption, aggravated by the destitu- tion of her circumstances. The attention of the overseers had been called to her case : they had been with her from a month to six weeks before she was removed. At first she received 2s. 6d., then 3s., then 3s. 6d. a week, which was the utmost. She could do nothhig for herself, and was a proper object for the house of recovery. It would have cost 7s. a week to have her there, and other 4s. a week to keep her children. In all, it must have cost the parish lis. a week to keeii her and her children. The utmost she got was 3s. Gd., leaving her to remain in her bed, in her miserable hovel, in a wretched state, in the last stage of disease. The maggots m ere crawling in the bed. She was in a miserable small place, from seven to eight feet in width and length. Her children, being infants, could give her no assistance. Two men came over to me on a Sabbath morning, and apologised for coming on Sunday, and said it was necessary to call my attention to the case. I wrote to a parish surgeon (I think he was a parish surgeon), Mr Torbet, begging to hear his opinion, and I met with him in the middle of the day, between sermons. He told me it was a case for the infirmary. I asked whether it was safe to remove her in her condition? He said it was the best plan. I went and saw the woman after church in the afternoon. The neighbom-s said they were obliged to interfere, and do sometliing for the poor creature, as the parish did nothing but give her the weekly allowance ; and assured me they had, more than a month before, shown the ovei-seers the dreadful condition of her bed, which was rotting under her. I made arrangements to have her canied to the infirmary. She died two days after this in the infinnarj". 10,905. What is the date ? — I think it is about two years ago. I brought it under the notice of the fiscal; I thought it was a case for him ; but nothing was done, at least I never hcai-d that anything -was done. I brought it also under the notice of the presbytery, in stating other cases. I got the presbytery to appoint a committee to investigate the treat- ment of the poor, of which Dr Burns was convener; and very hnportant inquiries were insti- tuted by the committee. Dr Burns could give important information regarding the answers to those inquiries. They were referred, however, to the whole presbyteiy ; and the committee was directed to coiTespond with other parties taking an interest in the poor throughout Scot- land. There was another case in the neighbourhood of jNIrs Pickens, where the mother died, and where the whole family had been seized with typhus fever, Mrs Edmundston, Hamilton Street, Abbey parish. The ^\•hole fiimily had been seized with typhus ; the mother was the last seized. She had been exhausted in going to the overseers, and other quarters for relief. The relief she got was insufficient. The case was investigated afterwards, and I got evidence on the subject. It was bi-ought also under the notice of the presbytery, to show the neces- sity for interference. The mother died in a few days. I was asked to go to see the family. 4 H Exaniiii:itiun8. Paislkv. Rev. Mr Brewstor. 1 May 1843. 602 JQNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOPE THE Exaniiimtions. It is not customary to ask clergymen to go into a house in that state. I went, however, anc^ Paisley. saw the children crawling about the floor \n a >vretche4 state. The deatl mother was in hev „ ,j T) . . coflin lying across the floor. The hushapd was not able to raise his head ; and one or moro 1 May 104a,. '^^ the daughters were lying in such bed as they had. The allowance given to this pooi^ family had been very insuflicient ; and great neglect had taken place qn the j)art of the parish officers. The poor arc staved off' in every possible way A\hcn they apply. It will be found, if you make strict inquiry, that the observation of Captain Thomson, as stated by Dr Alison, is strictly cop-ect, that the great object of overseers or managers of the poor stems to be to avoid paying anything at all, — not to ascertain the amount of relief wanted, b,ut to escape the obligation of paying anything. We have succeeded in raising the allowance considerably in the parish. Dr Boog exerted hhnself very much on behalf of the poor. lie died in 1822, and was succeeded by Mr M'Nair. Since that time we have been able to keep it ])retty high. The average is higher with us than in any other parishes, except the border towns, It will be found that, unless where there is a constant pressure applied to the heritors, they will neglect the poor to a very great extent. I should like to have any assertions of mine tried completely. I should like to have an opportunity in the presence of others, if necessary, to have the sj'sten^ fairlj- an4 thoroughly tested, find a proper judgment fovmed, in regard to the direct influence made to bear on the overseers of the poor and the paid superintendent. The superintendent is appointed by the heritoi's and kivk-session, and gets 80/. a year ; and if he did not save that amount to the parish, he would not be kept in his place. 1 want to show that, without anything like real inhumanity, there are strong influences made to bear on him to economise at the expense of the poor of the parish. It is right that I should refer to the case of two old Highlanders, whose allowance was raised from 3s. 6d. to 8s. It was raised all at once, ^fter I directed the attention of the overseers to it, to 8s. a week, because it was found necessary to get a keeper. They were in a most wretched state, overrun with vermin. They were veiy old. The parish authorities would have allowed them to die in that condition had they not been pressed upon. They knew their condition very well. I questioned the popr woman at the time^ She was in a very wretched condition, and between seventy and eighty years of age ; the man was rather older. She said she got two meals of pease brose in the day, — that is, when they ^^■ere getting 3s. Gd. in the week, Their whole clothes and bed-clothes were overrun M'ith vermin. The pwr woman com- plained that she did not get enough of food. A woman, on the agrcemeivt that she would pay a little attention to them, got an adjoining room from the overseers, and she made a little pease brose for them, and that was all they got. It wp-s agreed, on piy making apj)li-. cation, to raise the allowance to 8s. of which their daughter got 2s. as an allowance to live with them as a keeper, and attend to the old people. I have called your attention to this case to show, that although the overseers are cognizant of facts of this kind, yet they are willing to leave the most miserable people either to die ofl^, or to continue in their wretchedness, for the sake of economy alone, because if they gave more, their own assessment would be in- creased. In regai'd to the parish functionaries who are paid, they nmst please those who. appoint them. I give these reasons to show that it would be right in a case of this kind that government shovild appoint and pay the overseers whp have the charge of the poor. I beg leave to mention a x'ccent case, merely because It is recent, — the case of John Mont- gomery, Crossmill, near Levern church. His wife earns a very little, but not sufficient to support herself. He made application to the parish through his overseer, and no allowance was given. He brought the case under my attention. I desired him to apply to one of the session who lived in the neighbourhood, and he, as an elder, applied for him to no effect, This person, ]\Ir Thomson, wrote to me on the subject in the following terms :— « Levkkn, March 20, 1843. " Rev. Sir, — I beg leave to mention to you that the bearer, Jojin Montgomery, api)lied (in the usual way) at the last quarterly meeting, for assistance, and was dismissed. He is seventy-seven years of age, unable to work, and in very poor circumstances ; and he has been all his life in the Abbey parish. He has also an excellent moral character. How such a person could bo refused assistance is quite a mystery. " He would apply to the Court of Session, but does not know how to proceed ; and until his case could be settled his present means would need to be supplied. " He will be very thankful if you can render him any assistance by advice or otherwise.-^ I am, &c. (Signed) " ALEX. THOMSON," This was a short time after the case of Ceres was brought under notice by the decision in the Court of Session. I availed myself of that case, and at the quarterly meeting of the overseers, I moved resolutions in regard to revising the roll, and raising the allowance. I did not get a seconder. I however applied to the session, and got a meeting of the session, and a recommendation to the overseers to meet again to take the subject into consideration. We had a meeting accordingly. I brought the case of Ceres under theii' notice, and I pro- posed again a rcvisal of the parish roll, with the view of raising the allowance of the poor to what the law warranted. jNIr Miller, the lieritor's clerk, was there on the part of the heritors of the parish. He proposed, along with another overseer, an amendment to the effect that the overseers at their last quarterly revlsal of the roll had In their eye the case of Ceres. I do not wish to say that they had It not In their eye ; but I know this, that most of them who spoke on the subject expressed an opirdon that that case was not properly decided, and ought not to influence them. I did not get a seconder, although the session had taken it into their POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 603 consideration, and recommended it to the consideration of the meeting. Only one of the segsion went witli me to the meeting, and he declined secondhig my resolutions, so they again fell to the ground. It was at that time I brought the case of Montgomery mider then- notice, and some other cases, one of which was tlie ease of a man of the name of William .Tamcson, 34, Storey street, wliich had been dismissed at the former quarterly meeting which had taken place a fortnight before. It was recommended that it should be given over to the overseer, that he should make wliat allowance was necessary. The old man came to me ahnost a fortnight afterwards, and stated that he had received nothing. Montgomery also liad got nothing. I gave him a little from time to time from the session funds to support him, till his case came under the notice of the overseers. He told me that he had called a"-ain on the overseer after the meeting, and was told that there was nothing for him. I again relieved him with 2s. Gtb, I think. I do not know whether he has yet received any- tiiing. He is an old man, seventy-seven years of age. His wife can make little or nothing, and Avere it not for the kindness of some of their neighbours, they must have perished for want. They have been in great distress. They are very decent people, members of oui- own churchy The other case of Jameson illustrates what I have been showing, — the utter indifl'erence of the managers to the state of the poor, and their readiness to throw off a claim- ant. He was not able for work, but was obliged to do a little now and then. He Avas like a man dying in the last state of destitution. He was refused assistance, on the ground that he allo^^"ed one of his grand-children to live with him, — that was the ground stated for refus- ing him assistance, — because he kept the grand-child (without telling lum to part with it), they dismissed the case at the next quarterly meeting. He came to me, and I told him that was tiie cause^ He immediately sent away the child> I might have brought a number of other cases, but they are in large books. I might, however, have copied them off, and brought them hei-e if I had anticipated so much detail. The two old people, the Fairlies, arc unable to work. The old man is a membep of my own church. He was frequently in the depth of winter without fire in Ids house. He attends the chm-ch very regularly when he can. He is in very poor health himself. His daughter, who is a widow with a lar^e family, occasionally gives the old people a little assistance. The mother gets any food that she receives from her ikuightcr — Is. 8d. is the allowance given to the two old people. The son is unable to give assistance. I have referred to the case of Fairlie again, to state that he is a decent resjxjctable man, so far as I can judge. He has attended the church very regularly, and has lived forty-six yeavs in the same house. Between liim and his wife only Is. 8d. is allowed. 10.906. What would yoi* think an adequate allowance, taking into consideration the present price of pirovisions, for an old man past work, but who could do without an attendant ? — He would pay from 9dv to Is. a week for lodging, 6d. a week for coals, then I think you could not give him less than 3s. a week in addition, in aU 4s. 6d. I have often thought that that sum was necessary. 10.907. And for an old man and woman living together ? — Perhaps 5s. for them, exclusive of rent and fire. I would not like to propose a really inadequate allowance. There is no doubt that the law requires the pauper to be sustained. The Lord President says that it is " not a pittance ta keep them from starvation, but such an allowance as may prevent their health being injured by its scantiness," that is required. I think that to an old man and woman a little better food should be allowed than to younger persons in health. It is after the age of seventy that the law takes charge of them ; but they are obliged to work fre- quently when they are eighty and above it. A poor man lost his wife, in a most miserable condition, by the neglect of the town's overseers. He was of an age no longer able for work, — above eighty. His wife died in a rotten, putrid state, from disease andneglect, her husband being forced to work for their support, as he received only Is. Gd.. fi-om the town of Paisley. He has been fifty years a member of the chm-ch, and bears an excellent character. Such a person would have required a little animal food. I would say that for two such persons, receiving their allowance from the parish, it would be fair to pay their rent and clothing, and allow them 5s. a week for food, soap, and light. 10,908v Suppose a widow with five children, the eldest not above ten years of age, what allowance would she require ?-— I would count the childi'cn at Is. 6d. each at present — 2s. is the allowance made for the keeping of a child, but I am speaking in reference to the reduced price of provisions. That would be 7s. Gd. for the children ; then for house-rent,. Is., fuel, Gd. — that would be 9s. a week; and some allowance might be made for the widow, supposing her M'hole attention to be taken up with her children. I would in that case sup- pose 2s. to her. This may be considered an extraordinary allowance ;. but to feed and clothe them comfortably, this sum, I think, would be required. 10.909. You have said that a great delay takes jilace in investigating the cases of paupers claiming — that sometimes they are neglected, and that after they are received on the roll the allowance given is inadequate^s there anything you would suggest in regard to the charge taken of the parish poor in the way they are dealt with,, before we leave this part of the subject ? — There are several important points — for instance,, the. education of the poor children. I believe they are very much neglected. 10.910. Da you think it of great importance that their education should be attended to ?— Yes. 10.911. Do you think it essential to theii- temporal as well as spiritual welfare ? — Yes. They ought not to be so soon set to work. They arc sent to draw from seven to eight years of age — some so early as seven years of age, that is to assist the weavers — it is a laborious employment. They are sent very early to school when then- parents are able to afford it. Examinations. Paislkv. ReT. Mr Brewster. 1 Mav 1843. G04 MINUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Paisley. Rev. Mr Brewster. 1 May 1843. 10.912. At what period should a child be sent to draw ? — My opinion on that point may be regarded extravagant too. I would be inclined to say at twelve years of age. They arc considered under the charge of the parish till they are fourteen years of age, as I under- stand the law. 1 should be inclined to say they should be educated till they are twelve, and not sent to work, as they arc at present, at seven and eight. 10.913. Is the house of recovery an hospital for the recovery of the sick? — Yes. 10.914. Is there sufficient provision for the sick in the Abbey parish of Paisley ? — The house of recovery is not in the Abbey ])arish ; but we have the advantage of it. It has been considerably enlarged. It may be considei-ed as sufficient. It is a well conducted establish- ment. 10.915. You are satisfied with the manner in which the patients are treated there? — ^Yes, so far as I can judge, with tlie exception of complaints against some of the nurses, and re- fusing to allow relations to attend and see how the patients are treated ; but, on the whole, it is well conducted. 10.916. What steps are taken before a poor person is admitted to the house of recovery? — They obtain a ticket to get advice from the house of recover^' from their clergyman, or other subscriber. The subscribers get tickets of admission. The benefit of the house is confined to the town, including a small part of the country. 10.917. Is there a dispensary within the parish? — There is a dispensary in the house of recovery. 10.918. Are you satisfied with the assistance the persons in your parish get ? — ^It is very limited. They go to the surgeon there, who is not a first-rate person at all, — not competent to give very satisfactory advice. They — the outdoor patients — ^are entirely under his direc- tion. He visits sometimes, too. The patients in the house itself have the best advice the town can afi'ord — the medical men of Paisley taking the charge in rotation. 10.919. Have you any district surgeon? — We have parish surgeons, I believe, to whora they generally send persons. Dr Torbet was employed at one time ; I do not know who is employed at present. I have sent most of those who have applied to me to Dr Torbet. The overseers take the usual charge of this. They have printed lines, and, I rather think, send them to any surgeon they think pix)per. I shoiJd wish to refer, in regard to this, to those who ■ are better acquainted with the present practice in the parish. 10.920. (Ml' Ticisleton.) — Are you satisfied Avith the attention paid to those persons in the parish who are in sickness ? — I should not like to say I was not satisfied. I have known several cases, and I should say that I think the attention was rather good. I speak of easels sent to parish surgeons. 10.921. {Mr Cmn])hell.) — Has the parish surgeon any salary? — There was a small allow- ance made in accordance with the minutes of the overseers for each visit. I am not aware that they have fixed on a parish surgeon ; tliey just send to any surgeon they think proper. The allowance is very small, — only (jd. a visit. I have known charges refused to be paid. One of the town's doctors, whose charge Avas moderate, was refused on the ground that the elder had no right to send to him. In regard to the appointment of a surgeon, it would be a benefit if some persons were responsible for tlie cases in the town and country. I think it would be necessary to have a separate surgeon in the town of Johnston. There should be one for Paisley, another for Johnston, and another for the country part of the parish. 10.922. Are the collections under the charge of the kirk-sessions? — Half of the collections, by law. It was the custom of the session, for a considerable period after I came to this part of the country, to give in the whole collections to the parish fimds ; but on its being arranged that the sessions would be responsible for the contributions, they have kejit the half in their own hands. The half of the collections is a very small sum. It was wont to be 50^. ; but it has fallen oflT greatly of late years. None of the wealthy heritors give a far- thing. The poor, or the middle classes, chiefiy give to the plate ; they do not like to pass the elders standing there. The sum has averaged lately 5s. in the week, — the whole collection for the whole day. One half of that is applied by tlie session to necessary expenses, and to the relief of occasional distress ; the other half goes into the general fund. 10.923. How much, annually, have the session to give ? — From 10/. to 12/. of collections, independent of some charities or benefactions, — for which refer to the session-clerk's state- ment. It is only lately since the new system came into operation. At the commencement of the kite distress we had no funds. I advanced 5/. ; another friend advanced bl. I am not sure if more was advanced than 11/. I advtmced again 3/., and several small sums, which I have never asked payment of. I merely state these things to show that the complaint of want of funds to pay claims that may be made is not without foundation. It shows that we have very small funds at our disposal. All that we have been able to do is to pay the 11/. 10.924. Does that include the mortcloth dues ? — No, they are in a separate account. 10.925. Besides attending to the particular poor of your parish, you are generally acquainted with the poor of the working classes? — Yes. 10.926. Have they sufi^ered much lately from want of employment? — I think they have. 10.927. Would you be disposed to give a legal claim of relief to able-bodied men when out of employment ? — It would be desirable that they should have a claim. I think the law of Scotland is perfectly sufficient to entitle us to give an allowance very similar to that given in England. The substance of the law is much the same. It strikes me that the sub- stance of the different acts of the law of Scotland is very much the same as the act 43 of Elizabeth. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 605 • 10,928. Would you be disposed to give them an allowance whether they had a legal Examinations. claim or not ? — Yes. Paisley. 10,92i(. Would you give it under restrictions to prevent abuse .' — Undoubtedly; I would have a test workhouse for certain cases ; and whenever you had suspicion of unwillingness to ^^\' ^^ ^iTJ-i*'* work I would apply the test ; but I would be inclined to support others by outdoor allow- *^ ance. 10,930. Is there anything farther you would wish to remark on that subject? — Yes. I make the same remark on that subject that I should have made regarding the ordinary poor, that is, that I think the allowance should be fixed by the legislature ; and I think it practicable for the legislature to fix the allowance in kind ; for instance, so much of the ordinary food of the poor. Although I am convinced, that the appointment of overseers by the legislature would, of itself, have a great effect in obtaining for the poor better allowances than they at present receive, and more attention, there should also be a certain allowance for clothing and for lodging. I would have the different leading cases, under which a great many cases, not exactly similar, might be arranged, minutely described, and a certain allowance of food fixed by the legislature, to be converted into money when paid to the poor. 10,9HI. (Mr Twisleton.) — In regard to unemployed single men, what allowance would you propose ? — From 2s. to 2s. 6d. for their aliment, — I would say 2s. 6d. I0,i)a2. Inclusive of rent ?— No. 10.933. And an allowance to pay rent besides .'' — Yes, and to pay for fire besides. 10.934. How much would you estimate these 1 — I would estimate the whole at 5s. I am not sure, however, that I would allow a single man that, — he might be accommodated for less. In regard to the present price of provisions, 2s. for aliment might be a fair allow- ance. 10.935. How much at present for fuel and lodging .' — I could not precisely say. He might be lodged from 9d. to Is. Single men are generally obliged to wash if they live in lodgings by themselves. 10.936. What would you allow to a man and his wife ? — That is a more manageable case. I would say that at present, a man and his wife ought to have about 7s. a week. I would allow a little more for soap, putting in their way the means of cleanliness. I would say 6s. 6d. for food, lodging, and fire; and then an allowance for clothing and soap besides; and for these Is. 6'd. a week would be scanty enough. Then in winter they would need a light ; but they would be satisfied without that if they had fire. 10.937. What allowance for children ? — I have said Is. 6d. for each child on an average. 10.938. So that to a widow with five children under ten years of age, you would give 7s. Cd. for food ? — They could not be fed sufficiently on less Where there are two or three younger, from one to three years of age, they might be fed for less than Is. 6d. ; but when some of them arrive at twelve years of age, at which time they should be set to work, they would require fully more to feed them. 10.939. Altogether to a man and his wife, and five children, what would be the proper allowance ? — Taking into consideration the probable economy that might arise from cook- ing provisions for a large number, I would say 12s. a week. I know I will be thought extravagant in estimating this sum as a charitable allowance ; but 1 am not afraid to say that such a sum should be allowed. 10.940. Can you infoi-m us of the average wages for agricultural labour in the rural parishes of Renfrewshire ? — I have not had any opportunity of ascertaining that. 1 believe that the usual allowances lately were from lOd. to Is. a day for females ; and sometimes when they had extraordinary work, from Is. to Is. 3d., when spreading manure for pota- toes. I .suspect it is now considerably reduced. The average wage of a man is from Is. 6d. to 20d. a day ; but during the late distress, you could at all times get a man for Is. a day, and some may be had yet for Is. ; but now they will be satisfied with Is. 6d. I speak only from my own experience. 10.941. Take the case of an agricultural labourer with a wife and five children, would his wages amount to 12s. a week ? — I do not think it does ; 1 believe it to be about 10s. ; (I do not speak of a ploughman,) with a free house, and coals driven. 10s. 1 believe is the wage given at present by some. 10.942. Does that include food ? — It includes everything, — 10s. a week and a free house, the valued rent at 31. or -4/. a year. 10.943. As the wages of agricultural labourers are 10s. a week, would it be safe to give 12s. a week to an unemployed labourer from the parochial funds ? — I have been speaking of what I consider to be sufficient to sustain them in health, and to give the means of sufficient cleanliness. I have been speaking also in regard to the provision that ought to be made by law. An agricultural labourer with a wife and five children would require to have 12s. I employ a labourer, — ho has fewer children than five. 1 believe if he had five, and some of them well up, he would not be able on his wages to give himself and them sufficient support. I give the scantiest allowance. I have a small farm, and I believe the landlord receives too much for it. At the very lowest the labourer ought to have 12s. a week, with coals driven. I have been speaking in regard to the allowance which the law ' recognizes, and which it is the right of the unemployed man to get. I conceive that on account of the high rent of land, and on account of other things bearing on the condition of labour in this country, that justice is not done to him. He is very much oppressed. Perhaps you are aware that I hold particular opinions on such points ; and I wish you to give no undue weight to such opinions ; but I am satisfied that if the labouring poor had justice done to them by the legislature, they would be much better oflT. If a sufficient pro- GOG MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exn ruinations. Paisley. Rev. Mr Brewster. 1 Mav 1343. vision were made for the labouring;; poor, we would have the best security for jrood govern- ment. That is one of my reasons for statinf^ that the hibourin[f poor sliould have a suffi- cient provision made for them by law. If you put a question as to the policy of giving to an unemployed man more than he would make when employed, I conceive that if he is willing to work, and cannot obtain it, and if this be attributable to the state of the law, and the conduct of the master classes, he has a claim for a sufficient allowance. I know it has been frequently said that it would be dangerous to give him such a claim. I do be- lieve tliat, if you mean to estimate the danger by the probability that a great many would throw themselves out of employment, it would be exceedingly dangerous, — I have no doubt of it — I believe that the moment a man found that with working sixteen hours a day he could not make so much as his neighbour had woi'king ten hours a day at parish work, be would take very little trouble to obtain the sixteen hours work ; — I believe that in this the danger would be great. 10,1144. What advantage would counterbalance that danger?— The advantage would be that we would have better government immediately, — that in place of the poor being jilundered, which I conceive they are, not only by the legislature, but by the middle classes — fur 1 hold that the master class takes as much advantage of the poor as the legislature, and between them both the evil lies, — that in place of the poor being plundered, justice would be done to them, and they would live contented with their condition. I may be wrong in the opinions which I hold in regard to them ; but seeing that there is a law on the statute-book which takes one-third from the poor man''s earnings ; and seeing, as I con- ceive also, that the taxes on the poor bear very heavily and disproportionately, and seeing that by a benevolent law, provision is made for sufficient food to the unemployed, I would sav that if by the energy of benevolent and christian men that law were carried into full effect, we would have the best security for good and peaceful government, because the ruling class would find it to be more for their interest to relieve the national distress by just govern- ment, than to feed the people as paupers. 10,'J45. It is for political reasons that you would wish this .'' — Not political reasons, but for the rea.son of justice. 10,94(). Have the poor suffered much in their moral character ? — The rich have suffered more than the poor. Where there are individuals under an admitted obligation to give, by requirement of law, a certain provision to the poor, who are daily refusing to discharge that obligation, there is more of guilt in such refusal, — they commit a greater act of immorality than is to be found among the poor themselves. The poor themselves give infinitely more out of their miserably stinted earnings, making but one-half of what is sufficient to main- tain them comfortably, to their starving neighbours than comes from the pockets of the wealthier classes. They stint themselves, and even their own children, to assist those who are in greater need than themselves. There are to be found among the poor more acts of charity and christian kindness than the higher classes can lay claim to. I am convinced I could make out that the charity of the higher classes does not come up to the require- ments of justice itself; and that is one reason why I would demand what I told you would be regarded as an extravagant allowance. 10,1)47. Supposing you had every thing you could desire, how would you propose to deal with the able-bodied ? — It strikes me that if there was good government there would be little need to deal with them. I may be wrong on this as on other points ; but I certainly conceive if there were good and cheap government, if the higher classes did not legislate, as I imagine they are doing, for their own interest, but for the general interest of the coun- try, the able-bodied would give us little trouble. I desire not a revolution. 1 hold that there might be equally as good government under the present form as we could have under an altered plan of government, provided those who administered it were honest in their in- tentions. But still if there were unemployed men under a new or improved government,— and looking to all the possibilities of a derangement in our relations with other countries, as well as in our domestic relations, — I admit that there might come times of depression iinder any government. I would still require for the unemployed man a sufficiency of food. 10,948. Under an improved government, would it be right to grant an unemployed man more than an employed man earned ?— The single reason why I would hesitate to give so much would be that under an improved government, if I am right in my anticipations, the working classes would be so much better off, as to be able to provide for a day of want. If, therefore, they were improvident, I would not give them so much. But if under an im- proved government, I saw the impossibility of a poor man laying up a provision against the (lay of want, I would still require for him what was sufficient in food, clothing, and lodging. 10,1)49. Under present circumstances, what do you consider would be the effect of this on the provident habits of the labouring classes ? — My impression is, that the poor of Scot- land are most unwilling to come on the parish ; and those of them who are willing to come on the parish have had their habits and views changed by the desperate destitution into which they have been depressed. A great proportion would rather suffer much than have it said tliey received anything from the parish, even although they could get more from the parish than they could by the hardest laljour. Speaking of the great body of our working men, — I refer especially to the better conditioned of them ; a certain portion of them have been degraded, and are idle and profligate, and would go on the parish, and make perhaps a bad use of what they got. You must raise the character of the working classes by supporting and educating them before you can change their character. Still I say that a very great proportion of the working men would suffer the utmost privations before they would come on the parish. But certainly they are changing in their chai'acter, and if the depression POOK lAW INQUIRT COMillSSlON FOR SCOTLAND. G07 which we have so lately experienced continued for a much longer period, they would be re- duced to the condition of not scnipling to come on the parish. 10,!>.")0. Might there not be an intermediate class, whose habits of providence would be deteriorated by so large an allowance as you propose?— The middle class of working men to which you have referred, may be described as men who are sober, but whose spirit of independence is not so great as that of a higher class of working men ; and it is quite possible that a temptation being applied to them, they might yield to it. If they found they could not earn so much as a pauper on the roll had, even by working fourteen or six- teen hours a day, J admit that the less independent of them in spirit might be tempted to avail tliemselves of the parish allowance, and would use less means to obtain work. But the great proportion would do anything for the purpose of avoiding coming on the parish, — they would rather see themselves almost starving. The character of that class, however, Las been very much deteriorated of late, 10,9.51. {Mr liubertso)!.) — You admitted that in those large allowances that you proposed for the poor, exceeding the rate of wages of the labouring classes, great dangers were likely to ensue in the meantime ; but you would be willing to incur these dangers, because yoii conceive this large allowance would, through the medium of good government, tend effec- tually to ameliorate the condition of the working classes ? — Perhaps that might be inferred, iand that it would tend to secure better government ; but I wish to explain what 1 mean by danger. It would be a danger that could be checked and counteracted. The danger would be merely a greater number of applications by a certain portion of the working classes, and that danger could, by certain cheeks, be prevented in its operation. 10.952. But in the meantime you would incur the hazard, because you conceive you would obtain the means of permanently raising the status of the working classes? — -Yes. 10.953. You also said that still a great majority of the working classes maintained the character that would prevent them making such applications ? — I would say a great num- ber, not a great majority. Even supposing they made less wages by labour, they would choose rather to maintain themselves by their own independent exertions than come upon the parish. If they could sustain themselves and families in life, and without danger to their health, I firmly believe that would take place. 10.954. This independence of character does exist, — now, to what do you attribute the fact, that there is amongst the labouring classes in Scotland that independence of character which you have described in such glowing terms ? — I have no hesitation in saying that it may be in part attributed to the conduct of the parish overseers. It is a false pride in many cases. I have in some cases endeavoured to overcome it. The parish overseers have en- deavoured to make the coming on the parish roll as odious a thing as possible. They have always described it as charity, to which the poor have no right. The manner in which they speak to the poor is sucli that a great many have said they would rather die than sub- mit to the language that is constantly addressed to the poor applicant. I believe at the bottom of that independent spirit there is this fact, that they have not had an acknowledged and well understood legal right to the benefit of a local assessment. I make this concession ; yet we have to thank the overseers and others for the manner in which they have dis- charged, — the cruel manner in which they have discharged — their duty, which has produced an impression on the minds of the working classes, that it is a disgraceful thing to receive assistance from tlie parish, — that the name of pauper is connected with what is shameful and discreditable. 10.955. Are we to understand that, in wishing to elevate the standard of the working classes, you would conceive it to be any loss that this independence should be culti- vated.'' — I would wish the working classes to cultivate a feeling of independence ; but I would wish them to have an enlightened view of their own rights as men, — that if they are able to work, and if there does exist in the country the means of supplying their wants by an improved government, they should consider that if they give their work, they are en- titled to a sufficient remuneration ; and if by bad or reckless government their means of existence are greatly deteriorated, and they are unable to obtain that subsistence which otherwise they could easily acquire by ten hours labours in the day, I would wish them to have an enlightened view of their rights as citizens, and I would think that their position as men, — that the elevation of their minds, as men, would consist more in such an enlightened opinion of their own rights, than in an erroneous view of the matter, causing them to sub- mit without an effbrt to half starvation, because a demand on the parish funds would con- stitute them paupers, and expose them to the harsh, cruel, and overbearing conduct of the overseers. I would approve more of the man who would say, I will claim my right, and take the allowance, if you will by bad government depress the condition of the vyorking man, and if you force me to starve my children, and to send them to work at six and seven years of age, I will make you feel by the demand that it is your duty to do something else. I will take what the law gives, and what I have a right to receive, and when you find you are obliged to supply my wants, you will endeavour so to regulate the government of the country as to enable me, by a reasonable application of my faculties, to obtain a sufficient maintenance. 10,950. Do you conceive as a matter of fact that this feeling of independence is increas- ing or decreasing ? — I think it is decreasing. I blame the middle class chiefly, who have been the agents of depressing the poor, and refusing them that sufficient allowance which the law has given to them. It is decreasing in Paisley. 10,957. May not this feeling of independence, being stronger in the generation preced- ing than in ours, it what you state be the fact, be in some way connected with the early training and habits of the Scottish people, apart from the infiuence exercised by changes Bxaniinations. Paisley. Kev. ilr Brewster. 1 May 184a. 608 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. in our manufacturinfif population, which have been only occnrrences of yesterdaj', speaking I^AisLK\ . relatively ? — I think I have admitted that. The erroneous ideas they entertain of coming Eev. Mr Biwster. °" *^^ parish, and very possibly the prevalence of such an opinion among the great body of 1 May 1043. the working classes, and the training they receive at schools also, may be elements inthe formation of that character. They have always prided themselves on their independence, — it is a kind of natural feeling I should like to maintain, provided it were an enlightened feeling. I have endeavoured to explain my opinions on that subject. The working classes are neither more nor less than slaves to the master class. 10,958. You stated also that if these changes were efl'ected, you would not be disposed to make the allowances so large, but leave a man to reap the fruits of his improvidence? — ■ My opinion is decided on that point. If a time of depression should take place after pros- perity, and if it had been in the power of the working classes to make provision for such a time, I would give them the poorest subsistence, but I would give them still what would keep them in life and health. I cannot conceive that we are entitled, as christian men, to starve a human being ; but I would reduce the allowance to the lowest practical amount which would not tend to the destruction of life, just for the purpose of effecting what you would propose, letting them see that it is their business to lay up for a day of want. 10,lt59. Supposing (for I do not mention it as a fact) that a considerable proportion of the distress existing in certain places be clearly proved to have arisen from improvidence in prosperity, and not making a provision, when they had it in their power, for difficult times, how would you deal with them .?— In the very same way. In all cases where it could be proved not to have arisen from inevitable circumstances, such as disease or misfortune, I would be prepared to say that they should be maintained on the poorest allowance possible. 10,y()0. Even under existing circumstances? — Assuredly. 10,961. (^fr Twisleton.) — If the previous improvidence were to be taken into considera- tion, how would you have the allowance fixed by the legislature .? — There would be a diffi- culty there. The allowance fixed by the legislature leaves out of sight the improvidence of a certain portion of those who are making applications, and who are entitled by law to support. It would be proper in that case, with a view to the possibility of such cases being numerous, to leave someting to the discretion of overseers — paid overseers — .responsible to public opinion, and responsible for neglect. Still I would beg it to be understood that 1 would always claim enough to sustain life, but with nothing in comfort. I would make them feel that they were punished for their past improvidence. 10,9r)2. {Mr CampheU.)- — Are we to understand that the reason of your wanting so large an allowance to able-bodied men out of employment, is because those acts of the legislature which you think impolitic, prevent them from exercising their own efforts in the same way as they would do independently of such enactments ?— I state two reasons. I firmly believe that the working classes would be in much better circumstances, and more able to provide for a day of want, if they had had equal and good government ; but I have the conviction that they have not for many years past had it in their power to provide for the present destitution. That is one reason for asking a sufficient allowance to all. The other is, be- cause I conceive that it would be the means of securing good government. I hold the first to be the main reason, as involving a right on the part of the unemployed person, he being destitute from no fault of his own, and seeing that the law has benevolently provided for him, and given him a right to support. I may be wrong in going to the extent of 12s. in the case alluded to ; but I do not see that less would do in most eases. I want to give the unemployed labouring man not the barest supply of subsistence, but certainly what would sustain him in something like comfort. 10,9()3. One of your principal grounds for giving the unemployed working man this support, is because the law has given it to him, as you imagine, on the one hand, and on the other that the allowance should be liberal, especially as the law itself allows a suffi- ciency ? — If there were no law, I would ground my demand for the working man on what I have stated. 10,9G4. Have you any other suggestion to offer ? — .No, nothing else occurs to me at present. I beg you to believe, that in expressing thus freely my own opinions, I have been anxious to avoid hurting the feelings of others. Amount of Collections made at the Abbey Church Door for the following years : — From 1st June 1837 to 1st June 1838, ... 1st June 1838 to 1st June 1839 ... 1st June 1839 to 1st .Tune 1840, ... 1st June 1840 to 1st June 1841, ... 1st June 1841 to 1st June 18 i2, ... 1st June 1842 to 1st Mar. 1843 In the return of this last year there is one quarter wanting, the quarter not ending till the 31st of May. With the view of answering some of the Questions put by the Poor taw Commissioners, Dr Macnair last week sent me the follovving Questions: — ■ What amount of collections from 1st June 1841 to 1st June 1842 ? and \Yhat amount of mortifications and other session funds for the above year ? ^28 1 11 28 7 28 10 G 24 17 lOi 20 12 10 It) 19 11 POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. To which the following returns were made : — Receipts for Quarter ending 31st August 1841 Balance of collections and proclamations for June 1841, re ceived from Mr Blaikie, Proclamations for July and August, Collections for July and August Total receipts for this quarter, £1 13 2 2 1(5 3 17 10 G09 8 7 Examinations. Paislev. Rev. Mr Brewster. 1 May 1843. OJ Disbursements for this quarter, including 31. 4s. Old., being the half of the collections retained and disposed of by the session, Paid to the parish treasurer, 5 18 Oi £2 9 Oi Receipts for Quarter ending 30th November 1841. Proclamations, Collections, Interest from town of Paisley, Total receipts for this quarter. £4 4 .5 3 5 17 11 26 18 5 Disbursements for this quarter, including 21. lis. 81, being the half of the collections retained and disposed of by the session, ... Paid to the parish treasurer, 12 18 Qi £14 U Receipts for Quarter ending 28th February 1842. Proclamations for this quarter Collections, Total receipts for this quarter. £3 2 4 1 6.V £7 3 6 Disbursements for this Quarter, including 21. Os. 9Jd., being the half of the collections retained, and disposed of by the session. Paid to the parish treasurer. 5 19 3h 14 3" Receipts for Quarter ending 31st May 1842. Proclamations for this quarter. Collections, Total receipts for this quarter. £1 12 4 19 31: £6 11 93 Disbursements for this Quarter, including 2L 9s. lOJd. being the half of the collections retained, and disposed of by the session, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... £6 7 Of Due to the parish, — not paid to the treasurer, but added to the following quarter by order of the session 04 9 £6 11 9f Abbey Parish Charities distributed, 21st January 1842. Lady Grant, Mrs Corse, Mrs Ross, Mrs Watson, Mr Ritchie, Brediland teacher's salary for 1842, Abstract of Money paid to the Treasurer. Quarter ending 31st August, Quarter ending 30th November, Quarter ending 20th February 1842, , Due to the parish for quarter ending 31st May 1842, Total, £23 3 3 8 13 4 2 10 2 1 11 1 2 £37 10 6 12 rer. £2 9 Oi 14 44 1 4 3 4 9 ■P17 1« A 4 I 610 MINUTES OF EVroENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaniiiiatioui, Paisley. Rev. Mr Brpwster. I May 1»48. Abstkact of half of the Collections retained and distributed by the Session, taken from this statement for the year from 1st June 1841 to 1st June 1842. Quarter ending 31st August 1841, £3 4 0^ Quarter ending 30th November 1841, 2 11 8^ Quarter ending 28th February 1842, 209| Quarter ending 31st May 1842, 2 9 10^ Total half collections retained by Session from 1st June 1841 to 1st June 1842, £10 6 5i Colonel Mure. Colonel Mure of Caldwell, Examined : — 10,965. You are an heritor in the county of Renfrew ? — Yes. 10,!)ti(). There were a great many unemployed last winter ? — Yes. 10.967. Had you occasion to turn your attention to the state in which they were ? — In regard to attending meetings I had ; but I had no great opportunity of personally observing the state of the population. 10.968. Was there considerable difficulty found in providing for them in regard to the fijnds .'' — Very great at different periods, although large sums were collected. 10.969. Was the county called to contribute to the maintenance of those persons ? — The county had several meetings, — they were applied to by the gentry of Paisley to aid them in providing funds. Private subscriptions were entered into ; and resolutions were also en- tered into, for a voluntary assessment. 10.970. You did not consider yourself under any obligation ? — Certainly not. 10.971. Have you thought of any way by which the unemployed could be more properly provided for in such emergencies ? — It has appeared to me that a case such as Paisley does not fall within the ordinary limits, — the burden must fall with great hardship on the dis- trict. The evil was aggravated and extended to the healthy parts by employing large bodies of weavers in country work at reduced wages ; and the consequence was, that the ordinary practitioner was thrown off, or obliged to work at a discount. 10.972. From the experience you have had on this occasion, do yon think it would be expe- dient to give able-bodied men a legal claim on the parish ? — It would be a dangerous thing to give them a legal claim. If the able-bodied population in Paisley, unemployed, had a legal claim along with the disabled poor, they would eat up the whole rental of Paisley. 10.973. Would you give them a claim on any other fund? — Cases similar to that of Pais- ley, could only be fairly provided for, I think, by a national provision. 10.974. You would propose that the assessment should be national, — do you mean that it should be extended over Great Britain ? — It is an idea so little in unison with what we now go upon, that it may seem impracticable ; but if we had a new system of poor laws, with a national provision, it would be more just and efficient than the present one. It is not simply the provision for the poor we have to consider, but also the hardship imposed on localities, frequently without fault of any party. The excess of population in Paisley I consider as created by the wants of the nation, not of the district. 10,97;'). You are not aware that the gentlemen of the county derived any advantage from the workmen of Paisley who had fallen out of employment, and yet you were obliged to provide for them .'* — We provided for them merely voluntarily, — as a matter of humanity, — we thought it our duty to do so as magistrates. Many proprietors in Renfrewshire thought we went farther than we were obliged to do. 10.976. Not feeling that you experienced any advantage from those persons when they were employed ? — -I do not know that any advantage to us was found from their labour ; at least in regard to my own property, I am not aware that it has in any way been substan- tially improved, or that it has derived any benefit from being in the neighbourhood of Paisley. Gentlemen in the immediate vicinity may have found it so, however. 10.977. Supposing, there was a national fund for the maintenance of persons thrown out of employment, under whose management would you place it ? — Under the management of the government. It would never do to put the management of a national fund in the hands of a local board. To raise, for instance, by local assessment, on the parish of John O'Groat's, a fund to be applied, perhaps solely, at the discretion and for the behoof of the citizens of Glasgow, would be a very absurd principle indeed. My impression is, that it would re- quire to be done under the auspices of government. 10.978. On what principle would you lay it ; would you lay it on means and substance ? — I understand that is the spirit of the law in both countries. Tlie statute of Elizabeth con- templates that, and it is only by abeyance that it has gone into disuse. The assessment for the able-bodied should be national, not local, and on means and substance. Money in the funds for instance would be thus assessed. A rich man may now leave a parish which is assessed, and go to another which is not, and so escape altogether. 10.979. But if you were passing a general assessment over the whole country, might not a person holding money in the funds leave the country altogether ? — He might do that on account of taxation. 10.980. You have already said that you do not think it proper to assess all remote parishes in the country at the same i-ate, or to levy an equal assessment from small and large POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 611 parishes ? — On the contrary, I think it would be fair that the whole property in the country should be equally assessed for the sake of the able-bodied poor. I think if you were to place the assessment of remote parishes in local boards, where it might be mismanaged, it would be wrong. It would not be fair that Dingwall's money, for instance, should be put in the hands of Glasgow to be done witii as Glasgow pleased ; but it would be fair if the whole were in the hands of government. l(),'.)Xl. You would allow such a parish as Dingwall to be assessed at the same rate as •Glasgow, provided the whole fund were in the hands of government trustees ? — It would .be equivalent to the taxation of the country. Whether the tax was taken from the coffers of the state, or a new tax laid on, in a new proportion, it would come to the same thing. 10 982. (Mr Tmsleto7i.) — You state that it would be desirable that funds should be raised in the country, and that the management should be by government ; do you think that the public feeling would tolerate such a centralization .' — I think it possible that there would be objections, in consequence of the anxiety of little great men to keep things in their own liands. To leave it in such hands would be worse than if put under government control. l(),i)8o. In suggesting any proposal for alteration in the system, is it not essential to iionsider whether the system is in unison with the feelings of the people ? — If any new law were passed in Scotland in regard to the able-bodied poor, if the funds were supplied by the state, there would not be the same feeling against it as there might be if the funds for their support were raised by local taxation. If you were to tax a parish as in England, and then place it under a board which is under the influence of the state, it would give great offence ; but I do not think it would do so if it came out of the common fund. I(),its4. Would you have the management of the able-bodied kept distinct? — These are details which I cannot speak to. 10,98'). Supposing the whole managed by government, would there not be danger that people for political purposes would agitate to get the allowances increased, and the system thus become ruinously expensive ? — I should say that it would be regarded in the same light as other heads of national outlay. It would be the duty of government to see the thing done with economy. 10.986. Is it not a subject which is peculiarly susceptible of appeals to the benevolent feelings of mankind ; supposing parties were equally balanced, and one of them bidding for popularity by professing to increase the allowance to the poor ? — That was the evil of the old English system. Private feelings and interests were allowed to come into play, and abuses thus sprung up. It was in consequence of such abuses that the new English act was passed. 10.987. The allowances in England are fixed by the local boards, — your proposition would vest the fixing of the allowances in government courts ? — Yes, — they would be less liable to be carried away by their feelings, — they would be less easily influenced in their mode of management than men composing a local board. Those who are under local influ- ence are more likely to be acted on. 10.988. But would government courts not be entirely under the government, and might not there be greater room for political feelings to come into play, in respect to influencing elections .' — I hope it would not be the case ; but no doubt it might be to a certain extent. I shouhl imagine that in any case a man appointed by a particular government, if you suppose he is a strong partizan, might act perhaps contrary to his conscience to satisfy his euiployers. He has the means, I do not doubt, of doing so at this moment. I have heard of instances at elections, where, from such feelings being very strong, parties have been let off from their obligations if they would vote in a particular way. But these are not things which one ought to be apprehensive of. If the whole system of allowances to the poor were in the hands of government, it is to be hoped they would appoint individuals to take charge under them who had experience of the localities, and would see that they were impartial people. 10.989. One main point would be the rate of allowances, — might not a party in opposition endeavour to advance their popularity by promising to raise the allowances if they came into power ? — I should not imagine that there ought to be any apprehension in regard to that. I do not think any large number of persons in parliament would do this for tlie sake of bringing their friends into power. 10.990. But would the subject not admit of declamation, so as to make it perhaps a popular question ? — That exists in a great measure at the present moment. 10.991. You would propose to leave the matter to government? — Yes. No doubt such things as you allude to might take place ; but I am not apprehensive of them. 10.992. Might not the same desire of popularity affect local parties? — Certainly it might. It does affect them to a great extent in England at this moment. No class of men are more likely to be influenced. 10.993. (Mr Twisleton.) — In regard to fixing the allowance, if rate-payers were desirous to raise the allowance, they do it at their own expense, — do you think that there would on this head be the same feeling in members of parliament that there v.-ould be in rate-payers of a particular locality burdened with a particular number of poor ? — It does not occur to me that under the hands of government, there need be any abuse of that kind ; and, indeed, I do not know where we are to have justice anywhere else in regard to this but in govern- ment. I should not be apprehensive in regard to the poor law under government. I pre- sume government would do the work better than it could be done by local administra- tion. 10.994. (Mr Robertson.) — ^Without adverting to the influence that such a system would have on political parties, might not a danger arise from the very system of centralization ? * Examinations. Paisley. Colonel Mure. 1 Miiy I84:i. 612 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE T.UvEN BEFOEE THE ExMiiiinatious. Paisley. Colonel Mure. 1 May 1843. If you centralize the power of government on the one side, — would you not at the same time give a centralization to the working classes as against government on the other side ; and might not the trouble that might ensue exercise a pernicious influence on the feelings of the working classes generally as against the government of the country, whatever it might be ? — If they were not satisfied with the provision, or with the determination of go- vernment respecting time and circumstances under which the provision was to be supplied, I still do not see that there would be any reason to fear what you allude to. It does not occur to me that it would be more mischievous than what has arisen in any other case. If people felt themselves aggrieved they might be disposed to become seditious whether under local administration or not. 10,i»9.5. Would there not be this difference between the two systems, that whereas a great part of the popular dissatisfaction is brought down and spends its fury upon the particular bodies of guardians, that on the other hand it would be concentrated in one mighty cur- rent, and directed against the government of the country ? — There is no reason, I think, to anticipate that. During the late distress in Paisley, there was a strong feeling, consider- ing there was no law in this country for a provision for the able-bodied, — of the hardship of throwing the burden on the distressed district, and which was participated in by the better class, and decidedly by the county of Renfrew. We made application to have a grant of money from government, which was always steadily refused. Government gave nothing ; and yet, although seditious questions were mooted, it never led to anything like serious dis- affection. I do not see why, if things were put under the management of government, extreme cases of dissatisfaction should arise. It would not get to such an extent as to create an element for disturbance in the state. But these are opinions I have not turned my attention to. 1(),99(). Would you contemplate a legal rate to the able-bodied at all times, or only in times of peculiar distress ? — I think if a medium could be found it would be beneficial. 10.997. Do you contemplate a legal rate, or vesting a discretionary power in the govern- ment of raising the assessment as occasion might require ? — I have not taken this jioint into close consideration. 10.998. Have you anything else to suggest ? — No. Tuesday, 2d May 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., M.P., | Edward Twisleton, Esq., and llev. James Kobertson. JAMES CA^IPBELL OF CRAIGIE, ESQ., IN THE CILAJR. Bailie Murray. 2 May 1U43. Bailie Murray, Examined : — 10,999. {Mr Twisleton) — You are one of the bailies of Paisley ? — Yes. 11.000. You were for some time one of the directors of the town's hospital.'' — Yes. 11.001. You have been convener of the relief committee for a certain term of months? — For the last four months : I was, however, a member from the commencement. 11.002. Have you had frequent opportunities of becoming acquainted with the condition of the poor ? — Yes, for the last ten years, in one capacity or another. 11.003. In regard to the condition of the poor who are receiving parochial relief, under ordinary circumstances, are you of opinion that the relief afforded to therii is adequate to their wants? — I have all along been of opinion, that were it not for the relief from rela- tions, it is inadequate. I have never viewed it in any other light than as a mere assistance. 11.004. In ordinary times, was it sufficient, with the assistance of relatives, to keep them from begging? — A large proportion of them were maintained by means of the assistance from the poor rate and their relatives together. 11.005. Under ordinary circumstances, in ordinary times, is there much distress among able-l)odied persons in the town ? — I believe there has not been so much in Paisley as else- where, because in ordinary times the children are employed, or some of the members of the family. Some of them are employed as draw-boys, or in some of the factories, thread mills, and so on, I do not refer to periods when there is stagnation in trade. 11,00(5. During the period of distress, have you reason to know that many respectable weavers were unable to find employment ? — Yes, large numbers. , 11.007. Men who had been provident? — Yes. In such a state of things, the first class which suffers is the improvident ; but it goes on till it reaches the provident. 11.008. Were many respectable weavers on the relief fund .'' — Yes. 11.009. The heritable property belonging to non-residents is not rated at alH — No. The rental of the burgh is 5(i,68.')/. ; the property belonging to non-residents is 12,2()4A, which escapes assessment altogether. The proprietors who reside pay on their rental as income. 2 May 134;}. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMillSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 613 11.010. Do you think it advisable that the mode of levying assessment should be altered ? Examinations. — Decidedh'. Paisley. 11.011. Would you propose to lay it on rental as distinct from means and substance? — .-; Yes. The magistrates have found great difficulty in finding assessors, in consequence of ^^I'ipiv^J'oJi^' the inquisitorial nature of the mode. 11.012. Is it regarded as an odious office ? — Very much so, — so much so that the names v^ere formerly kept secret. 11,011-5. Were they afraid of incurring the odium of those who vpere assessed ? — Yes ; and besides, they were annoyed by people calling on them who thought they were aggrieved. 11,014. Do you think, in the abstract, that it is as fair a mode of levying as can be de- vised ? — My own opinion is, that the rental of a man's dwelling-house is the best test of his ability to pay, — I think it is the truest. I have known frequent instances where asses- sors were mistaken. 11,01.'). Is there a power of appeal? — Only to the assessors ; there is no appeal to any other inferior court, and no redress except by application to the Court of Session. ll,01at parts of the country? — From Ireland particularly. 11.037. Do you think they come to get a settlement, not with a view to get work ? — They come w ith no view to work themselves, but expecting that their children may get work ; and after remaining here three years, they come upon the parish. I have heard this avowed. 11.038. Could you mention any particular instances of this ? — I cannot condescend on the number ; but I know there were a few at least of such cases that came under my ob- servation. 11.039. Supposing there was no general assessment such as you recommend, would it still 814 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, be desirable to alter the law of settlement ? — Yes, — I would say birth, or some such condi- Paisley. tion as in the English poor law, — a person, for instance, who has paid rates for a given Bailie Miii-r number of years. 2 May 1843".' 11,040. Supposing a national assessment, and the law of settlement not abolished, would you think it desirable to abolish settlement by pure residence ? — Yes, I would relieve poverty on the spot where it existed without reference to settlement, either by residence or otherwise. 11.041. How many years' payment would you require to giv« a settlement ? — Say ten or litteen years. 11.042. Would there not be a difficulty to bring proof of having paid rates ? — Xo. 11.043. If an individual came to Paisley when young, and bestowed the whole of his- labour here, do you think it unreasonable that he should be maintained by Paisley in his. old age ? — It is difficult to say how far that argument applies. Glasgow is as much bene- fited by the labour of the people in Paisley, as Paisley itself is. 11.044. Have you any other point to suggest in regard to the assessment? — I have here a statement of the assessable means of the burgh of Paisley, with the number of rate-payers in each class, for the years lSo5-3l>, and 1839-40, by wliich you will see the very small number of rate payers who are assessed on 100/., and upwards, of annual income, com- pared to the whole. [See appendix to evidence.] 1 1,04.). Out of C022 rate payers, 1 see that only LOO persons are rated at 100/. and up- wards ? — Yes. ll,04(j. Have you reason to believe that since this statement was made out, the number of those rated at 100/. and upwards has decreased ? — The number has not increased. 11.047. In 1839, comparing it with 1835, the proportion of wealthy persons had de- creased ? — Yes. 11.048. In 1835 only G41 persons are rated at lOQ/. and upwards out of 50025 rate- pavers ? — Yes. 11.049. And in 1839 only 500 are rated at 100/. and upwards out of 6022?— Yes. 11,0.')0. If the mode of assessing property were changed, have you made calculation whether the assessment would fall on the same class as pay now, or a diffi^rent class ? — I have made some calculations. 1 think the difference would not be great. For instance, taking the survey for the prison assessment, the only real assessment on all property, — I find that it would require about Is. 6d. per pound on the rental within the ancient burgh to produce the present amount of assessment, say one half of it levied from the landlord, the other half from the tenant. The proportions would not vary much. The great mass of our work people are just rated at 3s. without reference to a per centage ; and very few of that class rent houses above 4/. In their case the as-sessment would b(.' the same, say 9d. per pound, the tenant's half of Is. 6d. ; but very few of this class pay. The parties whose assessment would be a little raised by it, would be those with shops which pay a high rent. Taking the great bulk, however, the difference would not be very material. 11,0.')1. In your calculations of what it would be in the pound, do you go on the supposi- tion that any parties would be exempted ? — Yes ; I find that (id. per 1/. of prison assess- ment, after all deductions, abatements for poverty, and defalcations, produces 1200/., — that is upon the parliamentary boundary, but applying that same principle to the ancient burgh. Is. (id., and a fraction would produce the present amount of assessment. The parties who are now exempted from prison assessment are tenants under 41. rent. They are not ex- empted by law ; but they are exempted in virtue of discretionary powers vested in the magistrates. 11.052. Do you find that the prison assessment works well? — Yes, as a mode of rating. I have never heard complaints as to the mode. The appealers are extremely few. 11.053. In regard to the police assessment, what is the difference? — It is this: they do not assess lands, only houses. By a clause in the police act, no public work or warehouse can be rated on more than 50/. of annual rental. Besides, the commissioners have the power of determining how far they extend the services of police. 11.054. The mode of assessment you prefer is one similar to the prison assessment.''-^ Quite so. 11.055. Does it appear that the number of paupers has been increasing in a greater ratio than the population during the last ten years? — Yes ; the population in 1831 was 31,460 ; the number of paupers on the hospital and session was 754 ; and the assessments and church collections were 3080/. In 1841, the population was 32,229 ; paupers 879, and the assessments and collections 4192. 11.056. Independently of the distress of the able-bodied during the periods of distress, what has been the cause of the increase of assessment.'' — I should think the increase of assessment is partly from the increase of paupers, and also from the decreased ability of persons to aid their friends. 11.057. Have you reason to think that the character of the operatives in Paisley during the last ten or twenty years, improved or deteriorated ? — Rather deteriorated. 11.058. To what do you ascribe that? — It is in a great measure owing to the periodical stagnations of trade that we have suffered under ; we have had them frequently during the last ten or twenty years. I think they have acted prejudicially to the character of the people. 11.059. Explain how it has injured their character? — Generally by lowering their scale of comfort. They are obliged to pawn their articles ; and as they lose comfort in their persons and dwellings, they lose self-respect ; and I think that the young people getting up have not had the same education either intellectually or morally that their fathex's had. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. G15 11,060. Have facilities of education not been afforded to theaa? — They have not taken Examinations, the advantage of education ; the facilities have been increased. Paisley. 11,()()1. Why have they not taken the same advantage of the facilities of education ? — In a great measure from the parents getting careless themselves, and from their sending their ^^^^^ Jg^^f " children early to wrork. 1 l,()i)2. Has the rate of wages increased ? — Up to the recent improvement in trade for the last eight or ten years the rate of wages has decreased. But although the wages re- mained the same in amount for a given quantity of work, the comforts of the people must be reduced, in consequence of many changes involving a loss of time, and expenditure in refitting, which at the end of the year diminislved the annual income of the operatives. 11,0158. Do you consider that bad times and bad character in the operatives, act and react on each other ? — Yes. 11,064. So that an individual weaver of indifferent character is likely to be in great distress, and this distress tends to deteriorate his character still more ? — Quite so. 11,065- Do you think it would be desirable to alter the law of Scotland as to able-bodied persons out of employment ? — I think it would : but I am not sure that it would be proper without some improved mode of adnsinistering the law, such as having a workhouse test. 11.066. If you had a workhouse would you grant relief in ordinary times to able-bodied persons only in a workhouse ? — Yes. 11.067. Do you think that in ordinary times there would be many able-bodied persons in the workhouse ? — No, I do not think it would come into operation at all in ordinary times, except as a test for those who were scheming. At all times, in such a population as we have, there are a certain portion who would always take if they could get. 11.068. Those who are idle.?— Yes. 11.069. And these are the first who are urgent for relief? — Yes. 11.070. And a workhouse would at once test their idleness, and there would not be the necessity for so early raising a subscription for the relief of able-bodied persons ? — I am quite satisfied of that. I have witnessed that during the two last stagnations. 11.071. And when there were subscriptions for relief, have not many been receiving it who, under no circumstances, would work ? — Yes. 11.072. In such circumstances, if there were a power in the managers to offer the work- < house to such parties, would it not be much easier to apply the labour test to other parties ? — Much easier. Il,07i5. In ordinary times are many able-bodied persons out of employment here ? — No. Paisley is perhaps better off in that respect than almost any town that I know of. A great number of them are employed either partially or wholl3'. 11.074. During the late period of distress was tbe number of women destitute great ? — Yes. 11.075. There were some peculiar circumstances which caused so many of them to be here ? — Yes, in consequence of a description of work adapted to women being abundant here, which consisted principally in sewing boarders to shawls ; and, owing to this, many women depending altogether on their work for subsistence, were congregated together in Paisley. What caused the women to remain longer on the list than the weavers, was the fact, that the improvement which has taken place, consists in the manufacturing of a sort of filled shawls, whieli, while it gave employment to the weaver, did not give corresponding employment to the women. 11.076. (Mr Robertson.) — You say that the facilities of education have increased, but that a corresponding improvement has not taken place in the education of the people ? — Yes. 11.077. Do you ascribe that to the want of inclination on the part of the people to edu- cate their children? — I should not say the want of inclination, but to indifference and in- ability caused by poverty. 11,078- May there not be difficulties in the way of working men not receiving sufficiently high wages, in maintaining them at school for a proper period of time ? — That is one of the causes why they are sent early to work. 11.079. Might it not be advantageous to give some assistance to working people in the way of educating their children, — for example, in connexion with a free school, supposing the children to be kept there the whole day, and supplied with one comfortable meal by the public, — would not this tend to forward their education ? — I would be afraid that the distinction that would thus be created between those who received it, and those who did not, would operate a little against it ; but any inducement to allow the children to remain by aiding them in clothing, or causing a saving in their maintenance, would increase the means. 11.080. Such an arrangement as that which I have mentioned, would cut oft' the excuse of parents being obliged to send their children early to work ? — Yes. 11.081. Unless some such facility is given, have you any hope that free schools would remedy the evil ? — No ; we have a large number of schools, which if not entirely free are nearly so ; therefore, I think, the system of mere free schools has been tested and failed. 11.082. Consequently some such arrangement as that referred to, coupled with a power- ful moral machinery, acting on the parents, would be the desideratum that the present cir- cumstances require ? — Yes. 11.083. Have you any hope that without some improvement in this respect, the status of the poor can ever be again brought to a higher degree of elevation ? — I confess I have not much hope of elevating the moral character of the people without some improvement in their physical constitution. 11.084. (Mr Campbell.) — On what principle would you lay an assessment on country parishes for the maintenance of the poor in manufacturing towns ? — I think the property in G16 MDsUTES OF E\^DEXCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations. Country parishes is as much benefited bj' the town population as the property in the town 1'aislky. itself. When property in our neighbourhood is advertised for sale, it is held out as an Bailio ili'.rrav. inducement to purchasers, that it is near the town of Paisley. 2 May 1843.' 11,08"). By making a general assessment throughout Scotland, you would get quit, you have said, of (jucstions as to wlio is liable for the maintenance of particular paupers, — ^how^ would you deal with the difficulties that would arise in the case of persons coming from England and Ireland, in regard to settlement? — I would understand that, in such a case, the poor should be transmitted to their own country. If the assessment for the poor is confined to Scotland, it should be confined to the poor of Scotland. ll,08fi. And you would give no relief to English or Irish poor? — No, unless the whole country was to bear the burden. 11.087. And you would require powers to transmit the English and Irish to their own country ? — Yes. 11.088. You said you knew of persons coming here to gain a settlement from Ireland, — can you furnish the names of any of those persons ? — No ; they came across me in the course of my labours in the hospital. I have met with instances of old people, who, on the question being asked, what brought them here, said they came with their children, and confessed that one reason which induced thorn was, that when they had resided three years in the town, they would be entitled to assistance from the poor rates. 11.089. To what cause do you attribute the circumstance of paupers having, of late years, increased in a greater ratio than the population ? — From a general breaking down of the labouring classes. 11.090. You have stated that in ordinary times you would have a workhouse for the reception of able-bodied persons wlio said they could not get work, in order to check im- position ? — Yes, 11.091. Would such a workhouse supersede the necessity for a provision for able-bodied person in extraordinary cases of depression in trade? — No. 11.092. Are you well acquainted with the management of the town's hospital? — Yes. 11.093. The allowance to the outdoor poor from the town's hospital is confined to the members of dissenting congregations ? — It is extended to all the poor whether belonging to dissenting congregations or not, except to the poor who belong to, and are members of, the Established church. .11,094. Do the poor of dissenting congregations receive aid from the collections at their o^vn church doors ? — In many instances they do, but to what extent I cannot say, — they have always avoided giving information in regard to that. 11,09.5. Are the outdoor poor belonging to the Established church maintained entirely by the collections at the church doors ? — Yes, by an arrangement entered into in 182S. ll,09(i. Is there any improvement wiiich you would suggest in the management of the poor in Paisley, or in Scotland, generally, beyond what you have stated ? — 1 do not know of anything at present. The arrangement I have alluded to has wrought well. The class of paupers belonging to the Established church are superior to the general run of paupers. Their mode of relief is more congenial to their feelings, and much better for them in every way, 11.097. (Mr Tmsleton.) — During the period that you were a director of the hospital, did you find that religious dissensions interfered with the smooth management of the poor ? — ^No, I cannot say that I did. I have occasionally hear distinguishing them respectively ?- — Yes. [See appended to evidence.] 11.239. Have you, ever seen any of the houses in which the pauper lunatics are boarded in Arran ? — No, that does not belong to my department. 11.240. You do not pay the occasional poor? — I began to pay them since the 11th of tliis month. 11.241. What description of persons have you on the occasional list ? — Something of the same description as those on our other list, but perhaps not so far advanced In age, — persons who do not appear certain to remain permanently on the roU. 11.242. Under the head, " occasional poor," do you give relief to those who have not a settlement, in the parish, but who m.ay have fallen Into sickness ? — Yes. 11.243. Do you make demands on the parishes to which they belong? — Yes. 11.244. Do you find difficulty in recovering the sums advanced? — Sometimes we do. 11.245. Have you lost much money in that way, or do you succeed in recovering it? — We never get anything from Ireland. I do not Icnow, however. If accounts have been ren- dered to Ireland. I have been making out accounts against other parishes, and rendering them for two years past. Some of them have been paid ; others have delayed, and have not definitely stated whether they will pay or not. 11.246. Do you find many Irish among the occasional poor? — I cannot say, as it is only a short time since I came into contact with them. 11.247. Have you any alteration to suggest in regard to the management of the poor? — POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 623 I think we would require some other mode of relieving them : the assessments arc becoming very heavy in tiie Abbey parish, and we find great difficidty in getting the assessments in. Mr Holmes, for instance, is assessed in the burgh as well as in the Abbey parish, on means and substance, and heritage. He carries on business in the burgh, and pays in both places on the same means and substance. He is thus assessed double. 11.248. How is the sum paid on rental divided between landlord and tenant? — The land- lord pays aU. We take 25 per cent, off' the rental to cover repairs. He pays on the rental, and the tenant on means and substance. If there were any possible way of getting it on the rent, it would be much easier got. They complain in the Abbey parish that Renfrew is not assessed at aU — that Renfrew is relieved of the burdens connected with the support of the jjoor. 11.249. As Renfrew receives part of the benefit of Paisley, you think it should pay ? — Yes. 11.250. Supposing the assessment to extend over Scotland, in whose bands should the management be ? — I do not know. 11.251. Sujjposing the assessment not to be extended so far, would you propose any alter- ation in tlie law of settlement ? — Yes, I would make it longer — I would say six or seven years, because I have heard of parties in connexion with the Abbey parish who wrote to Ireland for their friends to come and reside here. They came, and went about begging, and became residentcrs in the parish, after being here three years ; and we were obliged to take them on the roU. 11.252. Do you know the names of any of those who came over in such circumstances? — I cannot mention any of their names. 11,258. Is there any other change you would suggest? — Nothing just now. 11.254. Have you hcal-d dissatisfaction expressed by those rated on means and substance, that they had no share in appointing those who impose the tax ? — No ; there are complaints about the parties who are overseers ; but the heritors and feuars have themselves to blame at the annual meeting. Some persons of not great standing have been elected overseers, sitting and judging of parties of larger means than themselves. 11.255. Have those assessed on means and substance any share In the election of those over them ? — No. 11.256. You heard no complaints from them that they had nothing to do in the election of thosewho tax them ? — No ; the only complaint is, that it is not equally laid on— that they estimate the amount of a man's Income from no data but their own surmises. Parties complain that they are not equally assessed ; and in looking over the books, and comparing, I think that they are not equally assessed ; but I do not mean to blame the overseers. 11.257. Is there any appeal from the decision of those assessors? — Yes. 11.258. Who hold the appeal courts? — ^The assessors and kirk-session. 11,251). It is, then, an appeal from themselves to themselves ? — Yes, they give the parties an opportunity of exi)lalnlng. 11,260. The kirk-sesslon Is joined with the assessors in the court of appeal ? — Yes. 11,2(51. What Is the rate of assessment in the Abbey parish? — On means and substance 9^d., and on heritage Is. 4d., in the pound. 11.262. Those who pay the O^d., have nothing to do with taxing themselves ? — No, unless they have property. 6000/. Is assessed this year : one-half Is levied on heritage, and the other on means and substance. 11.263. Wliat Is the whole rental? — Last year it was 47,190Z. This year a good deal of property has changed hands. This year I think it ^vill be 48,000/. ; but a part of the pro- perty has been twice assessed, and has to be taken oflT by appeals, which makes the rental less than last year. Examinations. Paisley. Mr Robertson. 2 May 1843. .SCHEDULE. C24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Paisley. Mr Robertson. 2 May 1842, O to -3 o 1 a 3 w rr> (— t m Pi •-* > 1 m bn 1^ n ^ o r/J ^ Pi o Kl ^ Dh rx 5 CL( o CO (-1 -2 Tl o c3 V3 t— 1 W (4-1 H o <^ M rC o s "^ ^•^ o r3 «^ ^n 03 1,1 5?; o >— < H ^ ^ cr! O tq ^ l-H Lw o a J Q fcq HH l-H u 72 c S c sv ^§ t^ *'•*'•' ' s-'l K» loll ber Ins Pers h> :: I :::•'''' * ' -^ a f o ^ ! : t c : : r : I . ' "s. in i S 1 I— ( 1 a! ^ P. < 3 a 1 * •••*•*-••'::;::: ^ Si r^ s O eS o ' • ' l I C/J 1<1 »« t< Ci H -^ < Oh 1^ ■^ 1 jj ^sS^^ -* CO r- pq O Sdfe^ . . . ... . • 1— t l-H U „ M g ■^i-l <0-^M5C5(M C^C:C0'-+i>.0iC0*005ONt^ o (N (MtM*CC^r^'^C^C-T-l CiCi tS i^SiS ■: pq ^ ::::::::. rH ••''•' * rH O t^ : •* : rO i:::::::::'^'^::::'^ en -e CO :rHrH : :i-i : :c• ; r-4 CD 40 ^ • . iQ -COt-CDr-HCOC-^l-^CMOOrHC^j ;C;-* > »! ^ : ri-i : '. '~* : : : : i ^~* i ^ • ^ ' >a 1 »o s OC01>-CDOCO"^'*COCO»0»Ht^e:|TtiJ>.0 "O i en OS 1— < a:) • • r~t • (M • : (M ' r-< 0-1 : i-H t-H : : '^ ■* . . . • • r-i ^ • • ■ -r-t -r-lNfH • -rHr-lCO I :*0 • ■ « rH oi -^i-H'-WOTiil-^fMOSiOCOxHtDiOMiOOV « I— ( rH I— t CO 1—1 r-t •3 (N ; (N -^ : »0 (N rH i-l ; ; ; r-t (N i-l i-( -^ S a ^ eak of your being a district surgeon, you speak merely of being a district siu-geon in connexion with the dispensary ? — Yes.. 11.284. Dr jM'Aulay has visited at times those on the parish rollj to see if they were proper patients to be admitted to the hospital ? — He has done so.. 11.285. I wish to know whether there is provision made by the parish for surgeons to attend regularly the persons on the poor's roU during the whole progress of a disease ? — The ovei-seers have the power to employ a surgeon, and have employed me to attend during the whole progress of a disease. 11.286. Speaking of the state in which things are in regard to medJca! attendance, do you think there is an adequate provision for proi)er medical attendance on, tlijQse on the poor's roll ?— -I do not think it. Fourpence or fivepence for a case is by far too little to secure proper medical attendance to the poor» The districts are so large, that tlie patients cannot always be visited without inconvenience. 11.287. Is it your opinion that a greater number of surgeons would be required to give the poor adequate attendance ?— Yes. And the surgeons should be so remunerated that they could be enabled to devote their time properly to the poor. 11.288. The result, then, of your opinion is, that there is not at present a suflScient num- ber of surgeons for the poor's roll ? — The parish does not take charge of them at all ; they have been given over to the house of recovery. It is only four years since they got district surgeons. Before that time the poor were attended by the apothecary of the house of recovery. ' 4 L Examinations. Paisley. Dr Brown. 2 May 1843. 626 AHNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 11,289. Then the poor arc indebted to the dispensary altogether ? — Yes, except in ex- PAiaLEY. treme cases, when the directors have the power to employ a surgeon to attend them out and "~ out. 1 have been paid for such cases, and other surtrcons have been paid. 2 Mav'^8i3. 11,290. Tliere is no medical attendance on midwifery ? — No, I have attended severe cases, without expecting anything for it. I do not know of any case where life was lost for want of medical attendance. 11.291. Do you see anything of lunatics? — I have attended upon some kmatics. 11.292. Arc you acquamted- with the condition of the lunatics of the town's hospital? — I was director there for one year. 11.293. Is the accommodation there adequate ? — No, they should be out in some airy place, and employed in cultivating ground. 11.294. You think they should be in an institution especially adapted for their treatment ? —Yes. 11,29.5. Have you anything to suggest in reference to the subject on which you have been examined? — In 1841, I beg to state, that the patients in the house of recovery were eighty-eight, fifty-four of whom were not born in Paisley. 11,29G. Where did they come from? — From other places in ScotLand, and from Ireland. They were maintained at the expense of the institution, which is supported by voluntary subscription. 11.297. How long have those persons lived in Paisley? — I do not know. They might some of them have resided a considerable time. On the 22d January 1841, I was so con- vinced that very few of the natives of Paisley were receiving medical treatment in the house of recovery, that I counted them, and found in aU eighty-eight patients, fifty-four of whom did not belong to Paisley. 11.298. You mean to say that they were not bom in Paisley? — Yes. The Irish will not leave us readily when they come here. 11.299. Are many of their descendants here? — ^Yes. 11.300. Would it make any difference if they knew that there were poor laws at home for them? — You would not get them to understand that easily. Allow me to say that you should give us the English poor law for the payment of surgeons. ^, T^ „ . Mr David Craig, Writer, Examined :- Mr D. Craig. ^' ' llfZOl. (Mr Twisleton.) — You are a writer in Paisley ? — Yes. 11.302. You had charge of the accounts of the county labour committee, established in 1841 ?— Yes. 11.303. Will you explain the object of that committee, and gi^-e us an account of the gums received, and the sums exi)ended, and the mode in which they were expended ? — The object of the committee, as expressed in the minutes, was for the purpose of procuring field work, and other outdoor labour for other persons than those emjiloyed by the manufactur- ing committee. 11.304. When was it established? — In December 1841. 11.305. AYhen were the proceedings brought to a close? — About Whitsunday 1842. 11.306. What was the weekly number of persons employed by the committee? — I have a copy of a report made up by one of the committee, in which is stated the average number of people daily employed, — most of them heads of families. [Mr Craig then give in the following report i] — - LABOUR COMJVIITTEE. Sd March 1842. — Your committee commenced operations on 20tli December last, and have given employment in digging and stonebreaking to the following numbers of unem- ployed, who had all gained a residence in this place ; the average number per day (mostly heads of families,) employed for the week ending — 25th December, was 66 men per diem. 1st January, ... 86 ... 8th Ditto, ... 105 15th Ditto, ... 216 22d Ditto, ... 249 29th January was 192 men per diem. 5th Febi-uary ... 194 12th Ditto, ... 160 19th Ditto, ... 101 26th Ditto, ... 62 Your committee have last week thrown off" the most of the labourers except a few old and infirm men. They are stiU continuing to employ all the weavers in digging, for whom work can be procured : the average Avages of those employed at digging is Is. l^d. per diem, — those employed at stonebreaking, 9d. ; the price paid for digging has been 3d. per fall, and for stonebreaking Is. 2d. per square yard. Your committee have likewise given implements to many of the unemployed to enable them to procure labour for themselves ; and have like- wise furnished implements to the Johnstone and Bridge of Weir relief committees, to enable them to give outdoor labour to those upon their supply list. 11.307. They were at one time as high as 249 ? — Yes. 11.308. Will you state the rate of payment to them, and how they were employed? — They were employed partly in stonebreaking, and partly in digging. The payment for POOR LAW INQUIRY COI^IMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 627 etone breaking averaged from Is. to Is. 8d. a day. At one time the committee fixed the maximum at Is. 2d., — they resolved that each man should be restricted to four square yards per week,— lis. 2d., and no more. The rate of wages was not very well defined. 11.309. What wages fijr the digging? — They varied according to the prices received from those who contracted fi)r the labour, or according to the nature of the land ; but it would be from 2d. to 3id. a fall. 11.310. "Wliat were the average wages paid weekly to the diggers? — I think it was from Is. 4d. to 28. a day, 11.311. What was the nature of the contract between the labour committee and the gentlemen to whom the labourers were sent ? — ^We made a contract with farmers or owners of land to dig any quantity of land at so much per fall, — as low as 2d., 3d., and 3^d., and we paid the labourers accordingly, putting a certain addition, if necessary, to the price received from the farmer or owner. We performed the work, and in this way paid the men. In some instances, the sum received waa quite sufficient to pay for the labour. An estimate was formed of what the lalx)ur of the parties was worth, and the difference was made up by the county labour committee. They were all paid by the piece, none of them were on day's wages. The land was all measured after the digging was over. 11.312. The whole of it was not paid by the county gentlemen ?— No ; always something was received from the person for whom the labour was performed. 11.313. But the difference was made up by the county labour committee ?—Yeg. 11.314. Will you state what was the sum of money received, and what expended?-^ Received — Amount of Subscriptions and Grants, ... ... £735 16 2 Subscriptions, ... ... ,., £385 16 Grant — Paisley Committee, ... 150 Ditto — Glasgow Committee, ... 200 Examinations. Paislky. Mr D. Craig. 2 May 1843. 735 16 Amount as above. Received for road-metal, Ditto for digging. £735 16 72 15 9 97 2 10 £905 14 7 Paid — ^In stones, ... ... ... . ••• £146 For stonebreaking and digging, ... 520 For carting and overseer of stonebreakers' wages, 100 For implements, ... ... ... ... 76 Printing and advertising, ... ••• ... 8 Cashier, secretary, officer, superintendents, &c,, &c., 64 914 11.315. Was this work, which was performed for the county gentlemen and farmeif, supposed to be work which they would otherwise have done, or was it supposed to have been undertaken for the benefit of the unemployed ? — Solely for the latter. 11.316. Supposing that to have been the case, the money granted to those individuals must be considered purely as relief? — Decidedly so. 11.317. Have you anything to add? — Nothing to add, except that this was considered as mere charity ; and that the gentlemen exerted themselves very much to obtain employment for the labourers. 11.318. Were the men under paid superintendence ? — Yes. Mr Robert Kirkland, Stentmaster, Examined :— Mr R. Kirkland. 11.319. {Mr Twisleton.) — You are a manufacturer in Paisley ? — I am a cl«th lapper. 11.320. You were for sometime a director of the town's hospital? — Yes. 11.321. And you acted as one of the stentmasters for the town's hospital? — Yes. 11.322. In acting as stentmaster, have you experienced difficidty in performing the duty imposed on you with satisfaction to yourself ?— Yes ; because we have just to judge from outward appearances in many instances ; and we have often seen, after a lapse of time, that we had been wrong. Sometimes we have assessed too highly, in which cases the parties have appealed ; but we never had appeals from those whom we assessed too lightly. 11.323. Do you believe that great mistakes are made in estimating the means and sub- stance of individuals ? — It has appeared from the recent distress in trade, that in many instances those whom we assessed the highest have been the people of the least means. 11^24. Was there not a book published containing the names of the individuals in town, and the rates assessed ? — Yes. 11.325. Did you publish it yourself, or did you help to furnish the list ? — We agreed to do it, this is it. [(Jivcn in.J 11.326. You agreed to publish a list of the rate-payers in the burgh? — Yes, 11.327. And when it was published, was there a general impression in the town that 628 MES'UTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE £xaminations. Paisley. Mr R. Kirkland. 2 May 1843. different individuals had been assessed unfairly ? — Yes. It was intended to show to the public what we had done, and give the people an opportunity of finding out errors. 11,328. Supposing jjarties had felt themselves aggrieved, to whom did they appeal? — ^To the stent-masters. 11,321). The stent-masters had likewise a final decision ? — Yes. After having assessed the whole town, parties are served with a notice of the amount that they are to be charged for the year ; and a time is appointed for hearing appeals. 11.330. How many stent-masters were there when you were in that office? — Sixteen. 11.331. Had you each a district ? — No; the intention is to take people of different busi- nesses and localities, so that when we come to stent any particular street, there may be two or three of them who know that street. 11.332. Then the estimate of an individual party's means is made by the whole sixteen ? — Yes, his means are estimated by the vote of the sixteen. The collector furnishes the stent- masters with the names of the parties ; commencing with a street, he reads a name, and we say, what do you conceive the person's income to be ? — One says, he knows it to be so and so. 'We are guided in some instances by what the party paid the year before. 1 1.333. Did you not resort to the expedient of requiring each individual to give in an estimate of his income ? — I proposed that, but it was not done, — it was laughed at. My proposition was to issue schedules, with blanks to be filled up by the parties. 11.334. What is the rate at which individuals are assessed ? — There is a varying rate. The first thing done is to see the amount that the town is likely to be worth, — that is the income of the inhabitants. Supposing that the amount of the assessment i.s to be 3500/. for the current year, we are sworn in ; and to obtain this amount from the inluibitants, we go over the list and judge of the amount each is thought to be worth. Then we see what wdl be required from each to produce the 3500/. 11.335. Can you give us the scale at which you assess individually .'' — The scale at the time I was stent-master was this, — 30/., 38. ; 40/., Gs. 6d. ; 50/., lOs. ; CO/., 14s.; 70/., lOs. ; 80/., 25s. ; 90/., 33s. ; 100/., and all above, 21. 2s. This was the rate for one of the years. In 1840 it was raised to 448. at the 100/. My own income was rated in 1840 at 150/., and I was charged with 79s.; in 1841 I was charged with G6s. In 1842 the scale for 100/. was 448. ; but a supplement had to be required, which made the 150/., 82s. 6d. Then this pre- sent year the rates are 40/., 8s. ; 50/., 128. ; 60/., 18s. ; 70/., 26s. ; 80/., 34s. ; 90/., 428. ; at and all above 100/., 50s. A person in the burgh is supposed to be wortii 10/. before he is assessable, — that is to say, a person rated at 40/. is understood to have an income of 50/. 11.336. Did you take any opinion as to the legality of this scale as distinguished from the uniform scale ? — The question had been argued often ; and at the time I was in the stent court, it was carried that it was not legal but expedient. 11.337. WoiUd it be desirable to alter the mode of assessing property in the burgh ? — There are different opinions on that ; I think the mode is very fair, taking all things together. It appears that the capitalists are removing from Paisley. After I got notice that I was to attend here, I took a note of the names of individuals, or tiie firms tiiat had removed to Glasgow since 1818. Since that time, twenty-six have removed from Paisley to Glasgow who were in the muslin line, which was the principal trade in this town within the last twenty years. The shawl manufacturers to a man have arisen from their own industry. I do not know an instance of one of them coming here with a capital. I beg to say that what I have stated as to the number of capitalists that have removed from Paisley is from memory. 11.338. Do you think that the number you have mentioned represents the whole ? — No ; after I had finished my note, four other names came into my recollection. The communica- tion between Glasgow and Paisley is so quick, so frequent, and so cheap, that there is an inducement for proprietors to go to Glasgow ; and that is the reason that a great part of the property in Paisley belongs to non-residenters. 11.339. On the whole, would it be desirable to have an assessment on property instead of on means and substance ? — It might be as it is in the Abbey parish, so much on property and so much on means and substance. 11.340. Would it be desirable to have a system of assessment such as that of the Prisons' Bill ? — I do not think it would be a fair way of providing for the poor. I require to have large pi-emises to serve my employers. A silk-yam merchant may have a counting house and a back store, paying a less rent than I do, and with a much larger income. 11.341. Would you prefer the system in the Abbey parish, or what system would be the best ? — A national system either of means and substance on property. 1 cannot see what is to become of this town. The poor people are increasing, and the people of wealth decreasing. 11.342. If there were a national system, where would you vest the management ? — That is always the difficulty when talking of it. It would be attended with expenses ; whereas in the present mode there are no expenses. It would require either to be in Glasgow or Edinburgh ; at any rate there would require to be a union, and Glasgow would require to take Paisley into it. 11.343. Paisley, for the purpose of assessment, united to Glasgow? — Yes. 11.344. Would Glasgow object to that union ? — I think it would. 11.345. How long have you been manager of the poor's funds ? — Three years. I was - stent-master in 1838, 1839, and 1840 ; and since that time I have continued a director. 11.346. Have any points suggested themselves to you as capable of improvement in the administration of the law, independently of what you have stated ? — The law of settlement ought to be at least ten years. The present period of residence is by far too short. That POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 629 is the great difficulty in the burgh of Paisley. People are persuaded to come here to look after work, and extreme poverty ensues. It is easy to get work for young people here in good times. The children get up, and provide for themselves; and their parents, on obtaining a bare residence, come on the poor's roll. 11.347. Do the allovi^ances appear to be on a sufficiently large scale ? — They are by far too little, — in the burgh they are shamefully little. 11.348. Do they take widows with children into the workhouse ? — In some cases. 11.349. Is it the practice ? — Yes; if people are dissatisfied, and say they must get a larger allowance. 11.350. What do they do with the children ? — They make a bargain with a weaver, or any other tradesman, to take them when they are of age. 11.351. What would you consider a fair allowance to an old man past work? — I cannot see how a person can live with comfort at all below 6d. a day. 11.352. What allowance should be given to a widow with four children under ten years of age ? — Is. each to the children a week, and the widow 6d. a day, — that would be only 7s. 6d. a week. 1 1.353. What is the effect of low allowances on the paupers themselves 'i — It forces them to have recourse to private charity, to go begging from door to door. This they must do, for a number of the landlords must get all they have settled on them before they allow them the houses in which they reside. 11.354. Would it be desirable to have an appeal as to the amount of allowance ? — Yes ; it would be proper to have a court to which a poor person could appeal, — to the sheriff court, or to the resident justices. The directors always make it a point to be as stringent as possible. 11.355. Do you consider that one of the reasons why they give too little, is, that the bur- den on the town would be too heavy \ — Every director agrees that the allowance is too little ; and if they had more they would give it cheerfully. ll,35(i. Do you think it would be desirable to grant relief to able-bodied persons when out of employment ? — I do not know what is to become of us if the periods of stagnation are to come upon us as often during the next twelve years as they have been during the last twelve years. If a period of stagnation were to visit us within three years, I do not see where we could get money to relieve them. 11.357. Would voluntary subscriptions not be sufficient for their relief? — I am perfectly sure not, unless the London committee should make it a point to lend us their aid. The county gentlemen, and the monied people in the surrounding towns, are perfectly tired of it. 11.358. If relief were granted to able-bodied persons, would you give it in the shape of work ? — That is the best mode ; if it were given without requiring work in return, a num- ber of impostors would claim it, — men who are unwilling to work. ll,35St. Latterly, when the relief committee required no work from those to whom they gave relief, was it on account of the want of funds ? — Want of funds. The allowance was reduced so low that we could not seek work in return, — it was barely sufficient to keep them in existence. 11.360. {Mr RoberUon?) — Can you assign any cause for the removal of capitalists from Paisley ? — I always conceived it was owing to the improvement of the Clyde up to Glasgow.' 11.361. Why do the poor not leave the town also? — Because the houses are cheaper for the poor here tiian in Glasgow. 11,3(52. If house property continue to fall, will not the expense of manufacturing be diminishing here, and wiU you not have the means of reviving your trade In that way ? — Yes, if capitalists would come amongst us ; but the town has got a bad name. If we were farther off from Glasgow, I believe, with the industrious habits and intelligence of the inha- bitants, we would have been in a different situation. 11,363. {3ilr Camphell.) — Have you anything else to suggest? — I intended to say, as a proof of the distress of this town, that there are some of the principal houses, within a minute's walk of the Cross, consisting of five rooms, kitchen, scullery, and back court, so low in rent as 12/. 12s. in the year — houses which in prosperous times would have brought 25/. and 30/. rent. Peojile who require houses of that description are removing from Paisley. Examinations. Paisley. Mr R. Kirklar.d. 2 May WiU. A lexaiider Campbell, Esq., Sheriff-Substitute, Examined : — 11.364. {Mr Twisleton.) — You are sheriff-substitute for Renfrewshire ? — I have been so for more than forty years. 11.365. In regard to the relief of the unemployed, have you anything to state in addition to what is in your evidence before the House of Commons ? — No. 11.366. As to the parochial poor, have you had occasion to know their condition — I mean those in the receipt of parochial relief? — I have never had any management of the parochial poor ; but officially, in the course of judicial experience, I have had some occasion, from time to time, to pay attention to it. I was examined on the subject in March 1827, in a com- mittee of the House of Commons, when the question of emigration, in connexion with the poor laws, was in agitation. 11.367. Is it your opinion that the provision made for the poor from the parochial ftinds is adequate to their maintenance ? — I am disposed to concur in the general impression, that in some places, at least, it is too low. 11.368. Is the allowance too low In the town of Paisley? — I should rather think so. Mr A. GampbeU. 630 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAICEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 11,3G9. Is it too low in the Abbey paritili ?— In the Abbey pansh it is better. Paislky. 11,370. As comparing the condition of the poor in the two, are they practically better off ,, ~_ , „ in the Abbey parish than they are in the town ? — I have no knowledge iiractically to answer 2 May ltt43 *"^ question larther. 11.371. Do you find, in the persons who come before yon as sheriff, that their offences arc in any way connected with destitution ? — I cannot say that. Their offencea are very much connected with dissipation ; but not with destitution, so far as I have remarked, except in a small number of instances. , 11.372. In regard to the nimiber of public houses, what effect have they on the working classes ? — The number of public houses has a very bad effect ; they demoralize the people, and thereby contribute to take trade away fiom the town, and produce much evil. I shoidd say, in addition to that, that they not only demoralize, in a great degree, the yoimg gene- ration, but they have the effect of leaving them almost entirely destitute of education. Early marriages ensue, and an improvident and reckless population springs up. 11.373. Would it be desu-able to diminish their number? — It woidd ; but it is a difficult matter to point out the proper mode in which it ought to be done. A man who wants to take up a pubUc house finds some respectable person to take his part, and it is a difficult thing to oppose his recommendation ; and in this way a number get licences that ought not to have them. A safe check might be applied by establishing a maximum in a certain ratio to the population. I cannot see any objection to that. 11.374. Do you think that checking the number of public houses would diminish intem- perance ? — I should think so, because every public house keeper has a certain number of friends who bring customers to frequent his house. It is just like recruiting the army ; the more recruiting parties you employ, the greater number of recruits you get. 11.375. In regard to ])arochial relief, do you consider it desirable that there should be an appeal from the kirk-sessions? — I have great doubts about that. I think the system of management of the poor must be, to a certain extent, arbitrary. It is so in England and Ireland. In Ireland they have no right to demand relief. In regard to an appeal, I have had experience judicially in 1804, in the case of Richmond ; in which that person, and about 700 others, were complainers in the Com-t of Session, against a judgment of the sheriff, which found, that able-bodied persons in distress have a right to subsistence as paupers. In the Court of Session, it was deemed a matter of importance to get quit of the question on some preliminary points ; and it was decided that sheriffs had no jurisdiction. Since that, no question of the kind has been before a sheriff. Formerly parties claiming, did come before them, and such actions here were very troublesome. It is difficult for a judge to come at a proper criterion of allowance. ll,37t). With respect to the effect on the applicants themselves,-irdid you find that the relation they stood in to those who i-eceived relief, was not what might be desired, owing to the power of appeal ? — The power of appeal has a tendency, if not to excite, at least to pro- long dissatisfaction, and to create expense. 11.377. What was the expense of an appeal under the old system? — It is impossible to say. I i-emembcr a case where the expense was enormous : — There was a friendly society in Port-Glasgow for the support of seamen. One man they expelled as having failed to pay his quarterly contributions. He happened to be in poverty, and a claim was made on the society. The answer was, that he had been expelled ; and the reply was that he was expelled for poverty alone, a fact that ought not to destroy his claim, I decided in favour of the man. The case went through a long ordeal. Ultimately the original judgment was affirmed in the House of Peers, to the total ruin of the society. It is impossible to say Avhen a case begins, what may be the expense, where the means of litigation can be found. 11.378. What was the general expense of an appeal by a pauper from the decision of the directors or managers, before you ?— Perhaps not less than 5/., and perhaps it might reach to lOZ. orl5/. 11.379. Do you think it would be possible for a local magistrate to have full knowledge of all the various means by which the poor might mamtain themselves ? — No. 11.380. If there were such a power of appeal, would it not be possible that individual magistrates might have extravagatit notions, and give allowances disproportionate to the ^ wants of the poor, and to what would be prudent ? — Judgment on that point, whether the case remained with the ordinary managers of the poor, or in the hand of an individual judge, would be arbitrary, and vary with the feeling of those who decide. 11.381. Would that not create a danger that an individual sheriff might improperly raise the assessment in a large district ? — There would be danger. 11.382. Would it be desirable to give a discretionary power to directors to grant relief to able-bodied persons in a period of distress ? — Perhaps you are aware that this county had this under consideration , It was felt as a great hardship by persons contributing that they saw their neighbours who were equally able not ecpially willing. A county meeting remitted to a committee to consider the i)ropi"iety of .appealing to government for a compulsory power of assessment on such an emergency, and also to report on the question of promoting emi- gration, and certain other matters connected with the jioor laws. 1 undertook to draw up the resolutions, and I did so in accordance with what 1 had reason to think was the opinion of the majority of gentlemen with whom I had communication. But, in the meantime, alarm arose about the consequences of a compulsory assessment, assimilating us to England ; and the principle of such an assessment upon a distressed locality was ojiposcd in an able pamphlet, ascribed to one of our most influential county gentlemen, so that nothing decisive was done, and the matter was dropped altogether, as soon as it was understood that the present Commission was to be appointed by government. >\Tiat I had drawn up in the POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 631 shape of a committee's report upon this point was, that there should be no riglit vested in able-bodied men out of em})loyment to demand relief; but that there should be a discretion- ary power in the proprietors of the county, possessing a certain quaUfication, to give an allowance in cases of temporary distress, and to assess^ for it, if they thought fit. The pre- vailing o[)inion seemed to be, that it ought to be a national concern. 11.383. Was that your opinion? — It would have been also my opinion if I could have seen the possibility of government embarrassing itself with the charge of such a duty as that of ahns-n'ivino' for the whole of the kingdom. There are so many difficulties in the way that I did not think it would be acquiesced in, and therefore I thought it became necessary to fall back on some other mode. 11.384. (Lord Belhaven.) — Did you take into consideration how far towns would be affected by it ? — It was understood that nothing could be more oppressive to a town in the condition of Paisley, than to impose a heavy assessment on it for relief of its unemployed, more especially as most of its manufacturers were broken down by bankruptcies. It was considered that it would be accumulating distress on those already distressed ; and if any assessment were to be laid on for such a purpose, equity demanded that it should not be confined to the town, but extended over a district. 11.385. (Mr Twisleton.) — In giving a power of levying such an assessment, do you include a power of levying it in some way in towns ? — Yes ; I did not contemplate any exemption of property in towns. 11,38G. Leaving the ordinary administration of tlie poor to the present bodies ? — Certainly. 11.387. Wlmt should be the qualification of those gentlemen whom you would allow to vote in a matter of that kind ? — I should be disposed to say that the qualification should not exceed tliat which entitles a landed gentleman to be a commissioner of supply, or an equiva- lent in other fixed property. 11.388. Would you leave the power to the commissioners of supply in the county ] — No ; because many persons are commissioners who do not hold real property, but only superiority of lands ; and many have large revenues who have no land. I would entitle a man who had a valuation in land of 100/., or a lower sum, and a corresponding property arising from houses, canals, cotton-mills, &c., so that all real property witliin the county should be represented and assessed. 11.389. And that the assessment should be on all, even on those who had not a qualifica- tion to that amount ? — Certainly. 11.390. If a system of that kind were adopted, you would contemplate that there would be funds forthcoming to meet a period of distress, and in ordinary times no assessment at all ? — No, not adequate to such distress as we have recently experienced, nor nearly so. 11.391. When money is levied in that way, would it be desirable that restriction should be imposed in the mode of expending it, such as requiring woi'k in return ? — Undoubtedly, there would be no safety without some test. I cannot figure any other than a labour-test, and it is a difficult one to apply, — we have found that, having no workhouse ; and there is no possibility of having a workhouse capable of containing so great a number of poor as we had. 11.392. Could you state the sum that would be raised by 6d. in the pound on the rental ? — This county laid on a voluntary assessment of 3000/., in the end of last year, which was expected to be raised by a rate of threepence halfpenny per pound, the rental of the county being taken at 200,000/., exclusive of the burghs of Greenock, Port-Glasgow, Renfrew, and Paisley. 11.393. Do you think in the coimty there woidd be an objection to a power of raising an assessment in extraordinary cases as you proposed ? — Yes ; very strong objections. They ■would prefer the present system of voluntary subscriptions, with all its inconveniences. The tendency is to devolve the charge on government. Rather than willingly go into a measure of compulsory assessment, I am disposed to think that the landed gentlemen in this county would be disposed to take their chance, and get over the difficulty the best way that they could. 11.394. Are you acquainted with the rm'al parishes In Scotland? — Not much. I know a little of Dumbartonshire. 11.395. Do you believe the poor are properly managed in riu-al parishes ? — I believe so, generally speaking. In the parish where my small property lies, they are managed well. 11.396. Would it be desirable to change the body to which the administration of relief is entrusted ? — I should think it undesirable, considering there are from six to seven thousand unpaid managers, better qualified than any other individuals to superintend the poor, that have had the charge in Scotland, and have had from time immemorial, and whose services I think have not been sufficiently appreciated. 11.397. Do you think the administration of kirk-sessions has had a beneficial influence on the people of rural districts ? — I believe the kirk-sessions take the chief management ; but legally speaking, it is in the heritors and kirk-session jointly. I have no reason to doubt that their administration has had a beneficial influence on the people. Perhaps we may have gone too far in pcnvu-ious aUowauces ; but I do not think that we have gone to such excess as has been represented. I speak of rui-al districts, and merely of those of which I have some knowledge, and information as to others. 11.398. In regard to the present mode of assessment in the Abbey parish, are you satisfied ■with it ? — ISluch the reverse. I think the mode of assessment in the Abbey parish of Paisley, and in some other parishes, and in almost all the burghs of Scotland, is on an exceedingly bad footing. What I allude to is this : — The landlords in landwai'd parishes are assessed on their real or valued rent to the extent of one-half of the whole assessment ; the other half falls Examinations. I'AISLF.V. Mr A. Campbell. 2 Mav 1843. C32 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ExRiiiiiiations. on householdcrg. Now, according to the present law, the managers of the poor are entitled P*t6i,Ky. to assess according to their own arbitrary notions of the means and substance, gencniUy, of „ r~.. , ,, those who pav this last mentioned half, and in exercising that power they are entitled by 2 ilay lii^a. *'^'^^' to "se all the mqiiisitonal powers that are vested m property-tax commissioners — powers which no one has ever defended on any other ground than that of necessity. We adopt it here without necessity. In the most influential districts of Scotland — Glasgow and Edin- burgh — there is no such mischievous practice. In the Barony parish of Glasgow, and St Cuthbert's of Edinburgh (resembling the Abbey of Paisley in being large parishes, partly urban, partly rural), the dwelling-house is held a sufficient test of the means and substance of its occupant, and on that the assessment is made ; whereas here the persons who have the management have no basis for the assessments which they impose, except statements of per- sonal means and substance exacted from individuals, controlled by their own notions, or by gossiping reports. This evil Glasgow got quit of by a special act of Parliament. The pro- perty-tax has safeguards accompanying it, which the administration of the managers of the poor here has not. For the property-tax commissioners arc properly selected, and are under an oath of secrecy ; liere the persons into whose hands the management may fall, are not the most proper for so delicate a task ; and there is no secrecy. They have actually printed and published the " means and substance" of all the assessed people in the parish. It is not very long ago since a question was before the Court of Session whether a rate-payer had a right to look into the assessment-book, and it was decided that he had. We have gone far beyond that— we have published a list of the rate-payers and the amount of their assessments, show- ing what every merchant's substance and ineome is supposed to be. 11.399. Have you reason to believe that in many instances the assessors have acted un- fairly ? — I do not say that ; they may have thought that they acted right. You are aware that according to the immemorial usage of Scotland, the heritors, (conjoined with the kirk- sessions, in the management of the poor,) were proprietors of land paying county cess. About 1770 there was a question started whether the managers of the poor had not a right to alter the mode of assessing, from valued rent to real rent, and in place of assessing lands alone, to assess also small feus and house property for the landlord's half of the tax. It was found that there being no law to the contrary, they had such a right, and they thought it expe- dient to adopt tliat rule ; so that in place of assessing the landed interest, according to what is called valued rent, conform to the cess-books, they assessed the real rent of the whole parish, and brought in thereby in the character of heritors, the proprietors of houses com- posing a third or a fourth part of the town of Paisley. One consequence was, that these people being rsited as lieritors, were entitled to vote as heritors ; and when any popular matter occurs to be decided by the votes of the managers of tlie poor, a canvass is apt to take pliuie, assuming aU the appearance of a popular election. That is a state of things that ought to be remedied. There ought to be a certain qualification in heritable property to enable a man to be a manager of the poor, so that the power be not, in any parish, left in the hands of persons having little interest in the right administration of the poor laws. 11.400. What qualification would you suggest? — It is difficult to say. I should think 100/. of real rent would not be considered as an exorbitant qualification. It would not pre- vent the heritors fi'om appointing whom they thought fit to be stentraastcrs ; but it would exclude parties who come to meetings only to carry particular points. Every source of per- sonal income comes under the notice of these managers, whether arising from trade, pix)fes- sional emolument, funded property, or anything else. Such a state of things would be thought very strange in England. It was found lately consistent with the law ot Elizabeth to assess stock in trade. This excited such an outcry in England that it was necessary to pass an act of Parliament to suspend that assessment. Our arbitrary and inquisitorial mode of assess- ment cannot be too soon done away with. It would have attracted more notice if it had been felt generally throughout Scotland ; but I believe it is not a general practice. 11.401. Suppose an alteration were made, would it be desirable to assess the rental? — Yes, the same as in the Barony parish, Glasgow, and St Cuthbert's, Edinburgh. The assessor looks at the man's house, finds out his rent, and assesses accordingly. Ultimately there is no injustice, because the people taking their houses have that in view. Glasgow got an act of Parliament a few years ago, which lays the whole assessment upon the urban property, payable by the occupiers, with right to retain one-half from the landlord. 11.402. Has the present mode always existed in the Abbey parish? — No; it began — so far as regards the change of assessing the whole property in the parish (urban and nu-al) by the real rent, and thereby ranking feuars of houses as heritors entitled to vote as managers, about thirty years ago. In other respects, I believe there has been little change of principle since assessment for the poor first began. 11.403. If there were an assessment on rental, what class of persons would you propose should have votes in selecting the go^'criiing body ? — I would not select them by vote, but appoint them by act of Parliament— that is, appoint a qualification. 11.404. Would you not say that those who paid the money should choose their represen- tatives to tax them ? — No. 11.405. What objections have you to such a mode? — I question its expediency. In the burgh of Paisley, soon after the reform bill passed, the magistrates thought it would be well to improve on the reform act, in reganl to stentmasters. They allowed all the rate-payers to meet in their respective districts, to choose their own stentmasters. People attended for a year or two ; but it soon ceased to be a subject of interest. StUl, however, the magistrates appoint those persons that are recommended by the rate-payers, which I rather think is not in accordance with the law. I do not see any good in allowing a choice by vote. 11.406. Do you not think there would be greater satisfaction among the rate-payers if they POOK LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 633 had a voice in choosing those who expend the money ? — That is a thing that I have not Examinations, thought much about ; at the first glance of the thing my feeling is against it. It might come Paisley. to be a sort of party question, and might not be altogether a disinterested one ; nor would ""; — meetings for such elections be likely to attract the attendance of the best qualified voters. 2 Mav'^uiis* 11.407. {Mr Campbell.) — On what principle do you think that personal property should be exempted ? — I do not thmk it should be exempted — I am for altering the test. I am not for unfit persons to be looking into every man's income ; I would have them to look at the dwelling which he occupies. 11.408. Is it owing to the inquisitorial nature of the present mode that you think a new test becomes necessary ? — Yes. 11.409. But, in some instances, might not a man with a large fortune live in a smaller house than his neighbour, with a less fortune ? — That is the objection. It is an evil that a rich man, living in a lodging-house, should be exempted ; but it is less than the other evU. 11.410. It is not on principle that you object to personal property being made liable, but in consequence of the inquisitorial nature of the mode ? — Yes,' the absolute power that accompanies it : no man will apply to the Court of Session, because the appeal would cost more than the assessment. 11.411. (Mr Rohertfon.) — You stated, among the evils arising from intemperance, in regard to Paisley, the injury done to the trade of the town ? — Yes. 11.412. Would you explain how you suppose intemperance acts in this way, or if there is any peculiar reference to Paisley as compared with other places ? — The fact is, that many manufacturers in Paisley give a great part of their weaving work to the inhabitants of the villages in this county, but still more especially in the county of Ayr and elsewhere. The manufacturer tells you, as the reason, that such are the habits of the weavers in Paisley, that a great deal of them cannot take a web without an advance of money, being unable to pay the expense of changing fi'om one web to another. They also often require implements, and manufactiu"ers find themselves subject to risk and expense by giving implements and ad- vances to improvident people. They find themselves much safer in employing village weavers than employing a considerable portion of the weavers in Paisley, and get their work and implements better returned. The consequence is, that those addicted to intemperate habits are thrown destitute when a stagnation in trade occurs. They are the first to come on the relief list, and the last to quit it ; and they never would leave it unless they were shaken oflP. 11.413. Are there any peculiar causes to which you attribute the extent of intemperance ' in Paisley ? — I do not know that there are any peculiar causes. Paisley, as a manufacturing town, is peculiarly situated in this respect, that a number of the master manufacturers reside elsewhere, and there is less intercourse between the employer and the employed than in most other kinds of trade. The manufacturer shakes off" the weaver Avhen it becomes convenient, and the weaver, when he can get |d. more per ell from another, shakes off the manufacturer ; and when a stagnation arises, the consequence is what I have said ; and I attribute to intemperate habits the preference given to village workers, and much of the distress which we have experienced in seasons of stagnation of trade. 11.414. Would any system of administering relief to the poor prove an effectual remedy, that did not involve, as an essential element in it, an endeavour to raise the moral status of the people ? — There can be no permanent cure without that. 11.415. That could only be effected by conferring, at least on the young and rising gene- ration, a proper religious and moral education ? — Certainly. It is difficult to give them that education so long as many see the bad example of their parents. I ought to mention, as one cause of distress in Paisley, that the chief manufacture here is what is called a fancy trade, which depends more on the fluctuations of fashion than the trade of any other manufacturing town that I know ; and if the goods are not sold off at the time they are produced, they either will not sell at all, or are sold at a job price, i. e. far below a remunerating jirice. 11.416. You stated, that at the time when it was proposed in the county to provide for the period of distress by a temporary assessment, that in accordance with what you under- stood to be the views of the majority, you drew out resolutions recommending a plan for such assessment ? — Yes, certain resolutions of the committee, to be reported to a general meeting. 11.417. May I ask if the principle of those resolutions was in conformity to your own views, and, if so, if you still adhere to those views ? — Upon the main point I certainly did come to think that we had no alternative but what I mentioned ; but I came to that opinion with reluctance. I am perfectly aware of the objections against it. 11.418. Would not one of those objections be, that the vesting of the means of relief for the able-bodied, even at the discretion of such a board of management as you proposed, woidd, as respects the able-bodied themselves, be attended with almost all the evils that would result from giving them a legal right — I mean with reference to their minds and feel- ings on the subject of the poor laws — would not the knowledge that it was in the power of certain parties to assess for their support, produce, in point of improvidence and iiTitation, almost all the evils that would result from giving them a legal right in a period of distress ? — Some of the evUs, but not all. If people have a legal right, then their demand, when made, must be complied with. Those vested with the management of the poor would be considered as deserting their duty, — as being guilty of gross inhumanity, — if they did not comply with the demand. There would be sucli force by intimidation applied to them, that they coTild not resist giving the relief demanded ; but if it were vested discretionarily in the hands of landed proprietors resident throughout the covmty, such intimidation could not be applied so easily. They form a body that could exercise theii- own judgment more Imdependently than the ordinary managers of the poor, as to the relief truly required, as well ■ the mode of giving it, I 4 M I 634 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE ExaniinntlMis. 11,410. I speak of the ultimate effect that wovild probably be produced on tlie feelings of 1^A^SLK\-. the working cla*6 10 93 11 7 444 11 12i V cent. 1839.* 634 £ >■ d. 2740 12 4 249 1 10 47 16 9 38 14 1 17 13 6 129 18 3 4 4624 0(1110 615:i 17 3 285 8 7 1320 22 ^cent. Suppl.lJ* SuppL \\ 1840.t SC9 £ s. d. 2588 18 10 3.'!7 1 4 55 9 6 13 6 15 19 137 9 7 4 10 4 4850 8 8 .'iOOO 5008 5 4 417 10 6 511 13 6 lui ^ ceut. 1 Oi 6 £ s.d. 2910 13 11 .572 11 6 110 17 5 34 6 4 187 3 7 4 16 9 4456 14 4 4000 4183 10 10 220 10 6 319 6 4 8 ^ cent. U lOi 5i 1842. 719 £ s. d. 3214 19 676 U 6 73 11 8 31 IS 11 51 2 2 219 18 4 15 8 4409 13 7 4000 4.'!52 250 398 8 4 10 ^ cent. Hi Snppl. 4 U U 6 Suppl. 11 1843. 652 £ s. d. 3154 4 432 14 4 73 16 3 24 7 9 29 10 8 42 12 4 16 4166 9 (iOOO 6523 11 10 767 1 6 699 2 7t 14 9i * This year the means assessed on, condescended on, in the .Schedules served. No deduction made. t This year £.'J0 deducted from every man's income, before being rated per pound, which e.xempted all tradesmen. t Fully one-half of this will yet be made good. Of the 719 paupers on the Abbey parish roll in 1842, 665 drew a fiill year's aliment, who were paid at the following rates weekly : — 6 at 9d., 179 at Is., 29 at Is. 3d., 156 at Is. 6d., 158 at 28., 62 at 28. 6d., 39 at Ss., 12 at 38. 6d., 25 at 4s., 1 at 48. 9d., 3 at Ss., 15 at 78. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 639 Wednesday, id May 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., | Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rey. James Robertson. JAMES CAMPBELL OF CRAIGIE, ESQ., IN THE CHAIR. Examinations. Paiblky. 3 May 1843. John Auld, Esq., Writer, Paisley, Examined : — 11.524. Were you connected with the second county labour committee ? — I was. 11.525. In what department? — As clerk. 11,520. How were the funds raised? — By subscriptions in the county, and firom two or three gentlemen unconnected with it. 11.527. What did the fund amount to ?— 557Z. 11.528. Was that the sole fund at the disposal of the committee? — Yes, with the excep- tion of an additional sum of 1051. 9s. 4d. remaining over from the previous committee. 11.529. When did the committee commence its labours ? — On 20th December 1842. 11.530. How long did it continue in operation ? — TUl 14th April last (1843), when it was resolved to break it up. There are still some jobs on hand not yet completed. 11.531. Has the whole sum been expended? — I believe it has not. 11.532. Do you know for what purposes the money was employed ? — Unemployed persons were sent to dig as near Paisley as possible ; and a large proportion were employed in stone- breaking. 11.533. Did the committee apply to gentlemen in the neighbourhood? — Yes, they did; and notice was also given in the newspapers. 11.534. When the labourers wrought for private gentlemen, did they work by the piece or by the day ? — Those under the charge of the committee wrought by piece-work as far as practicable. 11.535. What was the rate per fall? — It varied according to the nature of the ground, 2d., 2id., and 3d. 11,53(). What did the committee receive from those gentlemen whose work they under- took ? — 2d. out of 2|d., or 2d. out of 3d., as it might happen. We wore anxious to obtain work, and occasionally lost more. The committee always employed superintendents. 11.537. Besides persons employed by the committee, were there many employed by county gentlemen on their own account ? — A great many. 1 1.538. Do your books show the number of men weekly employed by the committee ? — My books do not. 11.539. Can you not state it ?— I will send it with the average rate of payment. 11.540. Have you occasion to know generally whether the people wrought diligently? — There were some good workers ; but generally indifferently. I heard many complaints. 11.541. Were the persons out of employment very anxious to get work fi-om the county labour committee ? — Very anxious ; they were begging for employment from morning to night. 11.542. \^Tiat was the class mostly out of employment? — Mostly field labourers and weavei's ; weavers predominated at one time. Most of the labourers were Irish. I may mention that I once went with Mr Alexander of Southbar to a field where there were about fifty labourers employed. I asked where they were all fi-om ; they were every one of them Irish. Mr J. Auld. Mr John Macdonald, Baron Ofiicer, Paisley, Examined : — 11.543. You acted as one of the superintendents of the workmen employed by the relief committee in Paisley last year? — Yes. 11.544. Are you still acting in that capacity ? — Yes. 11.545. Of what description were the men under your charge? — Chiefly labourers — very few weavers. 11.546. To what country did the great proportion of the labourers belong? — Ireland. 11.547. Can you state nearly the proportion which the Irish bore to other labourers ? — Nearly the whole were Irish ; two or three Highlanders, and five or six Lowlanders. 11.548. What was the greatest number of men at any one time under your charge ? — Seventy-five. 11.549. For how long might they be under you ? — They were constantly changing ; there were sometimes sixty, and sometimes even seventy. 11.550. Had the Irish been long resident in Paisley ? — I believe they were ; at least we had orders to receive none of those who came recently to the town. 11.551. Do you know what means were taken to ascertain whether they came recently or Ml- Macdonald. 640 IVIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Paisley. Mr Macdonald. :! Mav 1 B43. not to town ? — Inspectors were employed to examine cases ; and sometimes we received cer- tificates as to length of residence. I generally received instructions from Bailie Smith, or the committee, before I took any one on. 11.552. Generally speaking, what kind of workmen were those under your charge ? — Some very good — some very indiflerent. 11.553. Were any of them of a description that would not have obtained livelihood for themselves in ordinary times ? — If they could have procured work they could have supported themselves. 11.554. Were those imder your charge of such habits aa would have generally got work in ordinary times ? — Yes. 11.555. They were chiefly employed by you in digging, trenching, and drainingj* — Yes. 11.556. Did they execute the work in such a manner that profit could be obtained from it ? — They wrought weU if they were attended to. 11.557. Had you any opportunity of knowing if they wrought well if they were not super- intended ? — I knew that 1 could not depend upon them. 11.558. At what rate were they paid per fall for trenching? — It varied according to the ground, — 6d was the highest rate. 11.559. What wages would an ordinary diligent workmen make per day? — It depended on his abilities, his strength, and the way he was fed. Some would make very good wages. 11.560. AVhat might the highest wages be per day? — They were paid Is. 3d. per day ; but I was reflected upon ; the committee did not wish them to get so much. 11.561. Do you know whether any weavers under you refused to take webs from manu- factiu-ers' association ? — ^No, none. 11.562. Did you hear any of them complain that their work was less owing to the number of stones broken for the general relief committee ? — Yes. 11.563. Did you hear them complain that their work had been taken away from them owing to the number of weavers employed by the gentlemen of the coimty ? — Yes, frequently. 1 1.564. Were the labourers employed vmder you generally of good character ? — There were a few bad, but generally good. Mr w. Miller. Mr Walter Miller, Superintendent of Poor, Paisley, Examined : — 11.565. The Rev. Mr Brewster, one of the ministers of Abbey parish, Paisley, In giving evidence mentioned two cases In which he was of opinion, that relief had not been properly administered, — the cases of Widow Mathleson, and Mary Smith. Have you anything to state with regard to them ?— oMy statement Is already In print, and I will give It In. 11.566. Did the board of overseers take your conduct into consideration with reference to these cases ? — They did. I was examined before them also at the meeting of heritors, and before the synod of Glasgow and Ayr. 11.567. Mr Brewster has also made a charge of Tindue delay In visiting cases ? — I deny It of coiu-se, — if the case Is known. I do not visit, but report at once to the overseer. 11.568. When the case is not known to you, do you inspect Immediately ? — I do as soon as time permits. 11.569. How long time elapses In general, between persons applying and the case being attended to ? — I often visit the same day ; it may be longer if I am from home or on business : for instance, yesterday I was at Greenock on parish business, and did not return till the evening ; and while I was absent, a note was left for me to visit a case, but having had a meetmg of session also to attend to this morning, I have not yet done so. I was also not well myself. 11.570. What was the longest time which ever Intervened betwixt your getting notice, and visiting a case ? — Two or three days at most. 11.571. Is two or three days the longest time when out of town? — When out of town. In fever cases, I do not generally go into the house, but Inquu'c at the neighbours. I caught typhus fever when overseer. When in Paisley, a day or a day and a half at most, is the longest time that ever intervenes. I visited some fever cases last week, and am afraid I have caught it, and am at present under medical treatment for It. 11.572. You recollect the case of a person of the name of Fauly in Maxweltown? — Yes ; it was a fever case, and I did not go into the house, but went into his father's house adjoin- ing ; besides, that was not a case for us. He was relieved at the time by Provost Bisset, the overseer of the district, and at the same tune was relieved by the friendly society of which he was a member. He was also receiving from the relief committee. 11.573. Do you recollect anything of the case of Mrs Picking In Charlotte street? — Yes ; that Is referred to in my printed statement. There was no delay in visiting there. 11.574. Do you think It desirable to have assistance afibrded you in your situation ? — Yes ; some in conducting correspondence. If I had not that to do, I think I could manage the visiting. 11.575. Did you ever mention that to the overseers ? — No ; I have not, but some of them have frequently mentioned It to me. 11.576. Is the case of Edmonstone also alluded to In your printed statement ? — ^Yes ; It Is. 11.577. Do you recollect anything of the case of two old Highlanders? — Yes ; I think I do. It Is also mentioned in my printed statement. POOR LAW INQUIRy COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 641 11.578. Were all these cases brought under consideration of the overseers? — ^Yes ; they were all considered and decided in my favour. They were also examined into in the church courts, and I was acquitted of blame in all of them. 11.579. Do you recollect the case of John Montgomery ?— Yes. 11.580. Was there any delay in visiting him? — Not a single hour; but 1 believe there was delay in getting relief. 11.581. Did you report him at the first opportunity to the board? — Yes, I did. The date is marked on the schedule. 11.582. You cannot tell how long time lapsed between the date of your visit, and that of your report. I have it not in this book. I will send it. 11.583. Do you know anything of Jamieson's case? — Yes. He is a weaver, and a deli- cate man, and I went to visit him after the application for relief, and found on examination, he kept a son belonging to his daughter, who resided in same land with her father, she hav- ing a husband in employment and only one child. I reported the case the same day I visited, when it was decided he was to receive no relief so long as he kept that child, it being con- sidered that he could keep himself if he could keep the cliUd. Mr Brewster look a very active part at that meeting, which the sederunts Avill show, against the application, — saying it would be an abuse of the poor's fimds to give relief to a person who was maintaining another person's child. On a petition being subsequently presented, he was relieved, having parted with the child. Examinations. Paisley. Mr W. Miller. 3 May 1843. William Tovbet, Esq., Siu"gcon, Paisley, Examined :-- 11.584. You are a consulting surgeon in Paisley ? — -Yes. 11.585. Is the medical attendance on the poor in Paisley sufficient ?^ — Not altogether sufficient, 11.586. Do parish authorities make any provision for medical attendance on the poor? — None, except the Abbey parish, so far as I am aware of. 11.587. Do you remember of being taken by the Kev. Mr Brewster, to see a woman of the name of Pickings? — Yes, I do. Hcr's was a bad case. She died the next day. She had 3s. 6d. a week from the Abbey parish, but made a very improvident use of it ; so much 80, that I only paid her one visit. She threw away the little means she had. I advised her removal to the infirmary. She died next day, however, not in consequence of fatigue, hav- ing been removed to the Infirmary in her bed. 11.588. Was her death occasioned by intemperate habits? — I cannot state that. She was a woman of loose character ; and I consider her death was occasioned by ulceration in the bowels, aggravated by the way in which she lived., 11.589. Do you think there was any neglect in that case on the part of the parish autho.- rities ? — No. She had 3s. 6d. a week, which I considered sufficient aliment. Mr W. Tovbet. G L A S G O W — [SECOND examination^ Friday, 5th May 1843^^ MEMBERS PRESENT,. Lord Belhaven, James Campbell of Craigie, Esq.,, Edward Twisleton, Esq.,, asd Rev. James Robertson. LORD BELHAVEN IN THE CHAIR. Rev. Uv Norman Macleod, Minister of St Columba Church, Examined :-^ 11,500. (Mr Ca7npheU.)—Yon are minister of a quoad sacra church in Glasgow? — Yes. 11.591. is the congregation in your church in a great measure GaeHc? — In a great mea- sure Gaelic. 1 1 .592. Chiefly composed of Highlanders ?— Chiefly composed of Highlanders, 11.593. Your church is for their use ?— For their use. 11.594. Of about what number does your congi-egatlon consist ? — ^My Highland congrega- tion consists of about 1400 sitters, but there are many persons who have but one seat when there may be two or three others of the family. There are about 800 communicants who are Highlanders. There are many of the men who are married to low country wives, and I have about 400 or 500 who speak English, but there are about 800 who prefer Gaelic. 4 N I)r N. Macleod. 5 May 1843. 642 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Dr N. Macleod. r. Mav \UJ. 11.595. Are you in the habit of visiting the Gaelic part of your population ? — Very much. 11.596. Are they in a comfortable condition, or are some of them in a destitute condi- tion ? — I wisli to mention that it is the more respectable part of the Gaelic population that attend church at all. We have three flourishing Gaelic congregations in Glasgow — they are composed of the most respectable portions of the Highland population. Beneath that class in tlie scale there are a great number who never attend at all, — very much from poverty, and from no person on the voluntary system looking after them. I have been called upon by those poor people to visit them more perhaps than by my own congregation. 11.597. You have been called on to visit Highlanders not of your own congregation but Highlanders over the town ? — I have, in addition to my own congregation, been called on to visit many others. For one of my own congregation that I have had applications from, I have had apjjlications from ten who do not belong to it, for advice and assistance in getting relief for them from the different charities. 11.598. Are many on the poor roll? — 1 ought to have mentioned that when the Church Commissioners were here a few years ago, I considered it proper to prepare myself for the examination by ascertaining the actual condition of the Highlanders in Glasgow ; and I employed ten individuals to visit every house in the city and suburbs. We took down the names of every mdlvidual we coidd find who was born in the Highlands. The statement occupies two large folio books like atlasses, and shows that there were 23,000 native High- landers whose names were arranged in columns. Then there was the number of families, the chiu-ches they attended, their condition in life, and the state of each family. We found 11,000 of the lowest class of Highlanders who were not looked after by any mmister appointed for that purpose. Such was the state of the Highland population in Glasgow at that time, and it is much the same now. 11.599. Do you know whether many are on the poor roll? — I know many who are on the poor roll, and many who are not, but ought to be. In my own congregation I have a cor- rect list of those who are poor, whom we accommodate with seats without asking them to pay rent. I have a list in the books made up for a special purpose, and their number is upwards of ninety. A good number of them ai-e on the poor-roll, and receive at an average 3s. Id. a month per faniUy. I have a statement how they are employed, the circumstances that brought them to Glasgow, and other particulars. I find the average allowance is 38. 4d., — some have 2s., some more. It was at that time so, but it has been rather ascending of late. 11.600. 3s. 4d. for each individual of a family? — Not at alL 11.601. I need scarcely ask you whether that is adequate ? — In many instances it is a most miserable allowance ; and had it not been for the exertions we have been making, many of those would have been left in the lowest state of destitution and neglect. 11.602. It was impossible they could have lived on the parish allowance unless tliey had had other means of subsistence ? — Quite impossible. It is not given in the belief that they could live upon it, it is given in the way of addition to what they may otherwise receive ; and poor widows occasionally eai'n something by washing, cleaning out byres, sweeping rooms and places. Many of them, however, can do nothing. Some of them may have 5s. a month ; and had they not the benefit of certain funds we have at our disposal, I really don't know what they could have done. 11.603. What is the nature of your fund? — We make occasional collections through the year, but we have many M'ealthy Highland merchants in Glasgow, most benevolent persons. There are some who sit in my own church in the afternoon, and who, though they don't understand Gaelic, attend the church where their lathers worshipped in their own language. They very often give me sums for the Gaehc population. I have many who don't wait to be asked, and they put 51. into my hand at a time. I have only to apply to some of them in cases of exigency. I keep a sort of open account with some individuals, and there are Bcveral persons who receive from the fund thus realized ; but I confine that to individuals connected with my own church. 11.604. Are the dwellings of the poorer Highlanders in Glasgow very miserable? — ^Very miserable, 11.605. Are they worse In Glasgow than in the highlands? — I should say, decidedly, they are ; they have free air in the Highlands, at all events, and pure water. They are found either in the highest attic here, or under ground altogether. The Highlanders Avho come here, and their families, are poor people, or the children of poor people ejected from crofts. They come from a place where they have been paying 10/. or 12/., till they come down to ■wretched villages ; then tliey are rouped out, and, leaving their native place, are at length landed at the Broomielaw, where they are left without labour and work. The next time we Jiear of them is, that they are in the infinnary for some infectious complaints ; and they are sometimes here for a year or two in the lowest state of misery — no clothes that they can go out with on the Sabbath-day, and their necessities are of the most painful character, as they have not received a settlement here, and have no means of their own. 11.606. Their object?— Is to obtain work. There are other classes of Highlanders who come out and get employed in warerooms, and in all the different kinds of manufactures. It is from that class that our cluu'chcs are filled. The other poor classes, unless we look {iftcr them from charity and kindness, may live and die here without any body asking a question. And I may state, that when the sufferings of these poor people were found to be so great, the matter was taken up by some influential gentlemen, who cstablislied a Celtic Dispensary in Glasgow — (I have an abstract in my pocket for the last year) — wlicrein all those poor Higldanders are relieved. There is a medical man to visit them at their houses POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND, 643 gratis. It is managed for a very small sum — it does not cost us much ; but that di8])ensary has done a world of good in the city, and among these poor people, [The witness then put iu the following document :] — Examinations. Glasgow. Dr N. Maolpo99. Woidd you give a claim to relief in law to able-bodied persons out of employment ? — I should think it a very hazardous kind of law. I don't see how it would work. There may be a crisis in the mercantile community (as happened in Campsie) ; but really when that occurred I never found any difficulty with the heritors. But if they had a legal claim I would not have anything to do with the matter, as minister, in the kirk-session. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. G53 11.700. {Lord Belhaven.) — There is one expression you made use of which you would per- haps wish to explain, imputing the destitution in the Highlands to parUamentary enactment ? — ^1 allude to the sudden annihilation of the kelp trade. Clanranald had about 14,000Z. a year from kelp shores, and perha])s not above 4000/. or 5000i!. from landed estates. There were from 50,000 to 60,000 families employed in the Outer Hebrides on this work. Those were tlirown out of employment at once. The proprietors paid a tax for it as from their land. But with a stroke of the pen the whole was destroyed at a sweep ; and the proprie- tors could not get quit of the population which they had required up to that moment ; and that population has lain as a dead weight on those districts up to that moment. Many people in tills city have said that the landlords ought to be assessed for these poor people. I have said to such — " You shut your mill last week — how woidd you like to have the same law just applied to yourself?" Of our Highland proprietors I may truly say that the sacrifices tliey liave made are, in many instances, of a singularly generous character, though they are 80 very nuicli blamed. I allude to the alteration with regard to kelp. For instance. In the island of Tyree, the rental, which is 3000/. now, was 5000/. then. The income is very diffi- cult to collect, and the proprietor has very great difficulty in realizing a very reduced rent. The kelp was sent at that time generally to Liverpool. The proceeds were remitted to Edinburgh. They repeatedly remitted 500/. ; and one year they remitted 800/., to be repaid in the district. The kelp paid a high rental, and the surplus of 800/. was divided among all that population who now are squatters-down. And the present duke is so kindly and bene- volent in his character, that lie will do nothing in the way of removing them. They are become an idle and a poor population. 11.701. (Mr Iwisleton.) — Are you acquainted with Ireland? — I have been in the west cliiefly. 11.702. Is it your opinion that the Highlanders are undergoing the same transition as the population in some parts of Ireland? — I cannot speak with regard to the transition in Ireland. The Highlanders are in a more hopeful state. They are willing to emigrate, and are easily managed ; and if a very little could be got from the provincial government of Canada, the redundant popidation in the Iliglilands could be removed for a very trifling amount. If the government could only be brought to see that they brought about the mea- sure wliicli has made the population in the Highlands redundant, and if they afforded the means of remedy, by promoting emigration, I think the Highlands would be in a very happy state ; and It would be of the greatest benefit to Canada, by removing thither thousands of that excellent population, for whom there is nothing to do at home. But I cannot speak of Ireland being in a state of transition, because there are many things that interfere in Ireland which do not apply to the Highlands. They have the middlemen there, and the system of subletting, which makes it more difficult to bring matters into a working state in Ireland than in the Hiofhlands. 11.703. They have the same character — the Irish and the Highlanders? — They are the same race. They sjieak the same language. They are very much the same people, though existing under different circiunstances, to which any discrepancy may be traced. But the mode of education among the Highlanders Is so different from what obtains in Ireland, that much of the difference may be attributed to It. As an instance of the character common to the Iliglilanders, I may mention that I have sent 6/. 10s. to a poor woman in Ross-shire,, from her son in Canada, who had left home without a shillinjj. Examinations. Glasgow. Dr N. Macleod. 5 May 1843. Mr William Barr, Clerk of Supply, Renfrewshire, Examined : — Mr W. Barr. 11.704. (Jjord Belhaven.) — You are clerk to the commissioners of supply in Renfrewshire ? — Yes. 11.705. You have been so for a good many years? — I have formerly been clerk to the freeholders from 1816 till 1833, and to the commissioners of supply since 1828. 11.706. You are a landed proprietor ? — A small landed proprietor In the neighbourhood of Paisley. 11.707. You were present at the meeting In December as to the distress that then ex- isted ? — Yes ; at the first meeting not acting exactly as an official, but as a small landowner and freeholder, I took an opportunity of stating that I had seen the evil of giving money to able-bodied persons who were out of employment, and therefore that I would make it a sine (/ua non that labour should be required. I stood very firm on that prlnclj^le myself; but 1 found, generally speaking, that good and fine feelings came into play, and It was lost sight of entirely. I said then I thought it was going into a most vicious system. I told Sir William Napier very strongly that I would subscribe, but would rather take the people where I coidd teach them to labour. Many of them t made excellent labourers ; and I carried on for eighteen months, the numbers varying from twelve to forty-one or forty-two, and latterly being reduced to ten ; and they have gone off, except Avhere it was a matter of choice. During that period I did assist them to emigrate. I raised the wages which at first were Is. a day, and afterwards the average was 7s. 6d. Some went to Canada, — some to New Zealand. I have good accounts from both, that they happily are now in a situation of great comfort comparatively. That is the substance of the thing. My knowledge of the county enables ma to go back. In stating that the first great revulsion in Paisley was in 1810, another in 1816, and again in 1819, and In 1825, 1826, 1829, 1831, 1835, and latterly in 654 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 1841, 1842, and 1843. I shall prepare a short narrative of the history of the trade of Paisley, Glasgow, and send it to the Secretary to this Commission. Here is a scheme which I drew up at the Mr W Barr request of a meeting of the county, and which formed the basis of the first plan of relief 5 May 1843. during the manufacturing stagnation in 1841. 11.708. {Mr Campbell.) — Was that scheme subsequently adopted by Mr Holmes ? — It wa« the same. It was the thing drawn up and put into a different shape ; the principle is the same that I brought forward as the first thing that presented itself. It was partly my duty and partly an amusement. The committee was then sitting, and took the use of it. 11.709. At the meeting on the 20th December 1842, of the county of Renfrew, you being dissatisfied with the mode of applying the subscriptions for the relief of the able-bodied out of employment, proposed a scheme very similar to that acted on by the previous association, for the adoption of the county? — I thought at that time the thing was just proposed to furnish implements, chiefly carding machinery. I said to Mr Houstoun that it was a vicious system, because if the manufactories did not provide implements, they would be mighty fools to do so, if they got the country gentlemen to provide these for them. Lord Glasgow sent 100/. ; and he gave 60/. of it to Mr Lowndes, and 40/. to the manufacturing fund I speak of. That was not a manufacturing system beyond aiding tlio poor weavers — bej'ond buying traps for them, inasmuch as the Glasgow manufacturers did not choose to trust the Paisley weavers, as they said they were unprincipled. It was not properly a manufacturing system in 1842. 11.710. It was merely a system for furnishing machinery for weaving? — Quite so. 11.711. You found it answer best in that way, because the Glasgow manufacturers would not give employment except in that way ? — They sent to the north of Ireland. There were more webs given out to distant parts than would have employed aU the unemployed in Paisley at the time, had the Paisley manufocturers chosen to do so. 11.712. What was the reason why they sent work to the villages in Ayrshire? — Because in Ayrshire the weavers are not so improvident, and the mimufacturers get an honester account of their work, or get it done cheaper. At Newmills and Largs the people are far more trusted. They have their winter potatoes, and can weave there and in Hamilton cheaper than here. Manufacturers found that they got the article more honestly returned and woven at a cheaper rate in the villages. I have no doubt of the fact. That is the cause wliy the work is sent to the villages. Then there is another cause. The Paisley people, when there is a demand for shawls, leave the jjlain work and take to figured work. They get better wages. Then the manufacturers of Glasgow send elsewhere. The Glasgow manufacturei"s complained of being frequently duped by Paisley weavers, and are induced not to intrust them with webs, but send these rather to the north of Ireland. 11.713. Is it consistent with your knowledge that .part of the distress in Paisley arose from the losses they sustained from the corporation : were there many weavers and others who had sums invested ? — Yes ; and a great many societies. 11.714. From which the working men had funds ? — Yes. 11.715. And did they lose both the one and the other? — It was under a very vicious man- agement. The thing is just at a stick up. They are paying nothing. A bill has been pro- posed which is not likely to pass. But in the meantime they are paying nothing, and some of the magistrates are paying nothing. The whole system of town government is vicious. I was a magistrate for some time myself. 11.716. But, in the meantime, those who have lost money — who had lodged money with the corporation — are not able to recover it ? — Not a shilling hitherto, except, perhaps, a divi- dend of interest. Instead of paying part of the principle, they made 2| per cent, of a divi- dend. 11.717. And that aggravated the destitution ? — It did so exceedingly. 11.718. Did the Cart navigation trust consist of the same body as the corporation ? — They also failed ; and within ten days of the failure they held a meeting — a conclave up stairs — and made a grave proposition to raise the rate of interest. They were then paying four or five per cent. And I was the only individual who opposed it, because it was not a meeting of creditors, but of debtors proposing to raise the rate of interest. I said I would give it the utmost opposition in my power. I thought it was a reason quite sufficient why they should not raise the rate of interest that there were two balance-sheets showing their incapa- city to pay their debts ; and In ten days they unanimously declared their insolvency. 11.719. By their insolvency did a number of working people lose the money they had lent them ? — No doubt of It. 11.720. And that, as the failure of the corporation had done, aggravated the distress in Paisley ? — Excessively. 11.721. And brought the working men from a state of comfort? — Yes. One strong proud man, who was a Highlander, died ; and his wife told me that he died in consequence of the effect produced on him. ^Vhether It can be taken as a fact I cannot say. His name was Donald Carmichael. His wife Is alive. 11.722. I need scarcely ask you whether those losses by Individual workmen rendered it necessary to raise a greater fund for the unemployed than otherwise would have been called for ? — I think that is self-evident. But it had the same effect In a different way. It made persons in authority feel that they were bound to do something for those jjoor people who could not get their little savings out of their hands. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 655 Tlie Rev. Lewis Rose, Minister of the Gaelic Church, Duke Street, Glasgow, Examined ; — 11,72S. {Mr Robertson). — ^You axe one of the ministers of Glasgow ? — I am minister of the Gaelic Church, Duke Street. 11.724. What is the number of persons who attend that church ? — The number in commu- nion is only about 350, but the number who usually attend may not be short of 1500. I have 80 many English and so manjr Gaelic. 11.725. But your congregation is chiefly composed of Highlanders ? — Chiefly. 11.726. You frequently visit the members of that congregation? — I do. 11.727. And among the Highlanders generally in Glasgow, though they are not members of the congregation ? — Yes. 11.728. Do many members of your congregation belong to the poorer or working classes ? — Most of them do. 11.729. In visiting have you had occasion to see much destitution ? — ^Much. 11.730. What do you conceive to be the condition generally of the poorer or working classes in Glasgow ? — I conceive the working classes, when they get work, and are sober, are comfortable. 11.731. How are the poor provided for; do you reckon the allowances from the town's hospital or the kirk-session sufficient ? — No ; they get perhaps from 38. to 8s. a month, and the rent of their houses or rooms generally takes up most of the allowance from the town's hospital or kirk-session. This can hardly be called provision for them. 11.732. Have you occasion to know that the allowances are supplemented by private charity ? — Yes, I have, to a considerable extent. 11.733. In point of fact, is the condition of paupers of respectable character on the whole pretty comfortable ? — I should say it is not, according to my views of comfort, and according to my views of what their situation ought to be. 11.734. In short, notwithstanding what may be derived from private charity, you think it would be necessary to increase the allowances from the town's hospital and kirk-session ? — Decidedly. 11.735. Has destitution among the poorer classes been increasing or diminishing of late years ? — I should say it has been increasing, but I must say so with a qualification. It is just seven years, and a little more, since I came to Glasgow, and I have become gradually acquainted with the thing. So far as my increasing knowledge goes, I think it is increasing. 11,73(5. And do you conceive that the condition of the working classes generally is improv- ing or deteriorating ? — It has been certainly deteriorating during the last two years, owing to want of employment, — considerably deteriorated. 11.737. What I mean is, do you conceive that, upon the whole, the working population is sinking in point of status, or that a stronger tide of pauperism is getting in upon us, without reference to the late period of distress, but generally ? — I could not give a direct answer to that question ; there are so many elements to be taken into consideration. I conceive the tee-total societies have done a great deal in the way of stemming the tide of pauperism ; and the deterioration of the working classes, within the last two years, is very much owing to the stagnation in business ; so that I could not give a direct answer to that question. 11.738. What do you conceive to be the chief cause of pauperism, independently of misfor- tune in the case of individuals ? — I should consider intemperance one great source ; then the immigration from Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland, is another great source of pauperism here. These are perhaps the two great sources. So far as the work which fonnerly fell to the Highlanders is concerned in Glasgow, I may say that the labourers are now entirely supplied by Ireland ; consequently the state of the Highland population, with which I have chiefly to do, has been much injured of late. 11.739. What do you find the state of education among the children of the poorer classes in your congregation ? — It is good, because we have excellent schools for the Highland popu- lation in Glasgow. We have the Highland society's schools, and M'Lauchlan's ; and be- sides, there are so many other schools to which children can have access gratuitously, that I have not a doubt that the means of education are sufficient. 11.740. And do the people generally avail themselves of those means ? — Yes. 11.741. You are satisfied with the supply of schools with reference to the Gaelic population ? — Yes, with reference to the Gaelic population ; and I am not aware of any disinclination among the parents to avail themselves of these. 11.742. Is there much pauperism among persons of Highland descent, or is the pauperism confined to immigrants ?— Not to immigrants by any means. The children of Highland parents horn in Glasgow are often worse off than the immigrants. If their parents are dead, they are very often very ill off. I have met with many such cases. 11.743. Are they not provided with the means of education at the schools ? — They are with the means of education, if they had the means of life ; but perhaps they have no status here, — ^they have no domicile, and consequently cannot avail themselves of the means of educa- tion. 11.744. Among the Highland population, natives of Glasgow, come to manhood, does much pauperism prevail ? — Not among those grown up, but there is a great deal among young children bom here. Their parents come from the Highlands, catch fever perhaps, and die, then the children are left without protectors and in a state of destitution. 11.745. But would you not infer from the fact that there ia little pauperism among the Examinations. Glasgow. Mr L. Rose. 5 May 1843. 656 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, classes who have received instruction at your schools, that education is a great means of pre- Glasoow. venting pauperism ? — Decidedly ; and I am not aware that many of those who are educated at our schools are iU off for the necessaries of life at aU. They are upon the whole very well Jlr L. Rose. «• ^ i. j 11.746. You conceive that their habits of providence and foresight are so fostered as to prevent them from sinking ? — Yes, and they have learned trades. 11.747. Have you formed an idea how intemperance, the first of tliose causes which you specified, could be subdued or moderated ? — I have not formed anything like a definite opi- nion on the subject. I believe it is only by moral means that anything can be done ; and we have all appliances already that we can employ. But there is another evil in connexion with intemperance which I might mention, and this is what are called wee or small pawns. Alost destructive they are ; and I believe there are hundreds of them in Glasgow. They could be prevented by law from doing evil. 11.748. The interference of the legislature is necessary ? — I suppose the interference of the police, without any new law, would be sufficient. 11.749. What do you find the condition of young immigrants brought up, not in Glasgow, but in the Highlands ? — Almost all I come in contact with, are able to read and write, — that is most of theu' education. In circumstances, they are destitute till they get employment. 11.750. And do you find they continue equally resi)ectable as the class of those who have been educated at your schools, or are they more apt to sink into a degraded state ? — A great deal depends on whether they get into good employment or not. I am not aware that there is any propensity to sinking amongst them. At the same time they have not been successfiil for some years back in getting employment, whereas those that have been in our schools had 4 been in employment before, and perhaps retain the employment they had, though no new persons can get in. 11.751. You have a general acquaintance with the state of the Iliglilands ? — More cspe- ciidly the northern Highlands. I am not very well acquainted with Argyleshire. 11.752. What do you conceive to be the condition of the poor in the northern Highlands — are they comfortably provided for ? — I should say no. 11.753. Is the education of their children properly attended to, or have they the means ? — They have the means in most places ; but the state of the poor in the north Highlands is not perhaps so very uncomfortable as we should be apt to suppose, because they have not been accustomed to anything else. They subsist almost entii'cly on potatoes, and have not always enough of that kind of food. 11.754. Are the allowances made to those on the poor's roll sufficient ? — These, I believe, don't average 5s. a year. There are some parishes where sometimes 1/., 21., or 3/., may be got for a person ; but in general the allowances are 5s. or 6s. a year. 11.755. I need not ask you whether you consider these allowances sufficient? — I do not consider them sufficient. 11.756. What remedy would you propose? — My own opinion is, and has been for a long time, that no parochial remedy would be suitable for the Highlands ; and I shall gi\e you my reason for it, if you will allow me. An unkind proi)rietor turns away perhaps lOOO people from his estate, careless of what becomes of them. Then there is no poor law in operation at all in the Highlands ; and supposing that there is a nominal law, who is to put it in force ? You cannot get the ministers and elders there to put the poor law in force. Then there is another proprietor who is kindly disposed to the peoi)le, and he will not remove them. Nay, more ; he from kindness of heart will give refuge to those who have been driven away from another man's property : and thus, by making the system of administration for the poor depend on a parochial system, you punish the good man who keeps the people on liis pro- perty, and you free the cruel man, who turns away his people, from any burden at all. 11.757. Are tlie population in the Highlands fully employed ? — No. 11.758. From what cause does the want of emi)loyment arise ? — There is no sort of manu- facture. The most of the coimtry is imder sheep. 11.759. And they cannot be profitably employed in agriculture? — In many parts of the highlands a whole parish is under the hands of a few sheep-farmers, and no agriculture is going on there. 11.760. What remedy would you propose for this state of things — is not the popidation redundant ? — It is, for the work, certainly redundant. 11.761. Would you approve of removing that population by emigration ? — Decidedly I would, but qualified with the condition, that you remove not merely the strong and young, but the aged, so that they might not be a burden upon those that remain. Emigration, as it now goes on, does a great deal of evil. Some emigrate, but they are the young and strong, and the more of them that go away, the poorer the people that remain are rendered. Aged parents are left without the support of their children, perhaps. 11.762. Have you thought of any plan by which a more improved system of emigration might be put in force ? — I have not digested anything like a plan. The government are quite hostile to anytliing like a government system of emigration ; but I am persuaded that emigration, as it at present goes on, is doing a great deal ol' evil, for the reason I mentioned, you take away the strength and support of the people, and leave the widows and orphan children, and aged parents, dependent upon persons who care little perhaps about tliem. 11.763. Do you see no practicable means of improving the condition of the Highland population, whether by emigration or othenvise? — I should like if there were a national system of poor laws ; and that woidd be a sort of inducement to proprietors to provide work for their people, so as to render them independent, so far as possible, of poor law support ; and that would act for the benefit of Glasgow, and other manufacturing towns, POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 657 inasmuch as the number of labourers here would not then be so great as it is. People are Examinations. driven to the large towns for employment by the want of employment at home. Glasoow. 11.764. Could you state the nature of that national system of poor laws you would pro- ^j j p pose — what would be the principle of it?— It would be somewhat on the principle of the '5 May I843! English system ; and it is the principle of the old Scottish system too. Let there be a union of parishes. Take a whole coimty^ if you like, and make it one thing for the whole kingdom. 11.765. You would impose a uniform assessment over the whole kingdom — how adminis- tered ? — I would have a sort of property-tax for the poor, altogether under the management of government agents. There is another means of benefit to the Highlands I would recom- mend very much, and that is making provision for more fisheries. 11.766. And how would you provide for the extension of fisheries ? — I believe all that th?- people want to set them agoing, is just to provide them with boats and fishing tackle. They are 80 poor that they are not able to provide themselves with the necessary apparatus for fishing. 11.767. Is it not the fact that the fishing has failed of late years ? — It is. 1 1.768. From a defect in the supply of fish ? — I don't confine myself to the herring fishing ; I take the fisheries in general, and I feel very certain that if encouragement were given to the people on the west and north coasts of Scotland, the quantity of fish got would be very great. They (the peojile), would be comfortable, and the country at large benefited. 11.769. Would the country at large be willing to be taxed for the piu-chase of those im- plements ? — I cannot answer that. My favourite plan would rather be a joint-stock company for fisheries, than a government thing. 11.770. Have you attended to the condition of the poor generally in Glasgow, or par- ticularly to the Gaelic poor ? — To the Gaelic poor, and I have uniformly foimd the public * authorities in Glasgow most attentive to any recommendation of mine. I have found them uniformly attentive ; at the same time, their rules and regulations did not allow them to go the length that was required. 11.771. In the case of a Highland family reduced to destitution, did you find difficulty in obtaining temporary relief for them ? — There is hardly such a thing as an allowance of that kind. I have been obliged to go and beg from private individuals in such cases. 11.772. Where you believed they had a residence, have you found difficulty in obtaining relief? — Yes, very often ; but that arises from parties migrating from one quarter of the town to another. The difficulty is not so much in the authorities, as it is owing to the people themselves-^their migratory habits., I never found anything but kindness on the part of the public authorities. 11.773. If there were an enlargement of the allowances to. the poor, Avoidd it not be apt to be misused by parties who were tlissipated ?— Very likely it would. 11.774. How would you guard against abuse ? — I cannot well answer that question ; it is a difficult one. I have myself, when I have suspected anything of that kind, gone to buy provisions with money, instead of giving the money. I have known provisions, and clothes, and money, given away for improper objects — for drink. 11.775. Is there anything else you would wish to give information upon, coming within the range of our inquiry ? — -No. I should not like to volunteer information. 11.776. Any suggestion with regard to the mode in which the condition of the poor might be improved, or the stream of pauperism cut off, more than at the present time ? — Perhaps, rather than answer that question viva voce, I would put my thoughts on paper and send them, if you wish it. Charles Baird, Esq., Writer, Re-examined : — Mr C, Baird. 11.777. {Mr Tioisleton.) — In addition to the charge which you have had of the funds for the relief of the unemployed in Glasgow, for which you are secretary, and with regard to which you gave evidence when you were here last, are you also honorary secretary to the committee for the destitute Highlanders, which originated in I836-T? — Yes. 11.778. And you gave evidence with regard to those funds before the select committee of the House of Commons on emigration in 1841 ? — I did. 11.779. With regard to those funds, have you anything to add that suggests itself to you ? — I cannot state that I have. 11.780. Do you still hold the same opinion with regard to the changes which would be necessary in the Highlands to introduce a proper system there ? — I had occasion lately to read over a brief statement, which will be found in my evidence on the second day before that committee ; and while my opinion may be modified in some points, that statement expresses my opinion on the whole at the present day. Indeed I have been confirmed in that opinion by correspondence which I have had with parties in the Highlands. I am still of opinion that the four principal remedies are those which are stated in my evidence before the select committee. The four principal measures that seem to me required to benefit the Highlands are — emigration, to remove the redundant population— a better system of letting lands, at least a limitation of the crofting and cottar system — a modified system of poor laws, and, above all — increased means of instruction. 11.781. The first measure you recom.mended to the committee, and without which you thought any other one would be of no avail, was emigration ? — I stated that I thought it necessary to have emigration, in order to give the additional measures I proposed full and proper effect, 4 P 658 IVIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Mr C. BiUrd. 5 May 184X 11.782. SupposinjT that owing to reasons of general policy, the government deemed it inexpedient to interfere for promoting emigi-ation, would you think it desirable or practicable to introduce poor laws into the Highlands ? — I have not the slightest doubt that it would be desirable at the same time, and there I modify my opinion. I have made very particular inquiry with regard to the state of the Highlands since, and I must state my conviction now that it will not be Very practicable. It "would be extremely difiicult to introduce a system of poor laws into part of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. In the case of the island of Tyree, I should conceive it a very difficult thing, and even in some of the mainland parishes ; from the want of resident proprietors, and the small number even of the middling classes, it would be extremely difficult. 11.783. What circumstances have come under your knowledge since you gave your opinion, which have induced you to modify it on that point .' — I look at the great difference betwixt the rural and the burghal population. When I spoke definitely as to the practi- cability of introducing a system of poor laws, I referred chiefly to what I had observed in cities and large towns. I have since thought it would be more difficult to introduce a system into the Highlands and Islands, — 1st, Owing to the different condition and views of the people ; 2d, The difficulty of procuring work for them, and giving them employment ; 3d, From the want of resident landowners, or representatives to attend to the condition of the poor, and to keep down pauperism ; and, 4th, I may add, the want of proper machinery. 11.784. To what do you refer when you speak of the views of the people? — In the landward districts, where there is less population, the people are better known to each other, and they are more willing to assist each other. They don't expect so much from poor rates, nor would they be so willing to go, as others in more populous districts, from their friends. 11.785. Is there great clannislmess of feeling which would lead them to live all together? — Quite so. From the clannishness of feeling, I am satisfied that they are more willing to assist each other than persons in towns. 11.786. And more so in the Highlands than in other parts of Scotland ? — I would not say more, but to a very great extent. I am not prepared at the present moment to contrast them with all the rural population of Scotland. 11.787. When you speak of the difficulty of getting work, how would that precisely bear on the question of a poorhouse ? — In cities and large towns, during depression of trade, when the poor are thrown into greater difficulty than in ordinary times, we find the wealthier classes willing to set on foot schemes, such as in the case of our relief fund, for procuring weaving for those who are able to weave, making roads where these may be made for the public benefit, and so on. You can find work for them in the neighbourhood of cities and large towns, whereas you cannot find such in the country districts. I look upon it that it would limit the number on the poor rolls, the fact being that such work is provided for them by the upper classes. 11.788. You mean you could not in the Highlands work the labour test so well as here ? — You could not have the test from work. 11.789. And would the workhouse test opei-ate in the Highlands ? — The workhouse test would ; but then the difficulty would be very great in an immense tract of country with a limited population. 11.790. Then you think that the difficulty of providing work would make the labour test inapplicable ? — Yes ; the vast extent of country, compared with the population, would make the workhouse test inapplicable. 11.791. So these two difficulties have induced you to doubt the practicability of granting relief to the able bodied in the Highlands safely ? — Yes. 11.792. You speak of non-resident landlords, and you say it would be a matter of great difficulty to prevent abuse if relief were granted to the able-bodied ? — It would, if there were not a sufficient number of resident gentry, or at least of the upper classes, in order to take measures for checking pauperism and reducing poor rates. 11.793. But regarding non-resident landlords, is not their non-residence to a certain extent a reason for introducing poor laws ? — Yes, for the introduction of poor laws would lead these landlords to take care that as few paupers as possible should grow up on their estates. 11.794. Then with regard to the proper machinery for distributing relief, would there not be factors who could discharge that duty ? — My opinion is that they would have the matter thrown almost entirely into their hands. You have almost none to control or act along with them. 11.795. Would the clergy not act? — I think the Highland clergy are, at least to a con- siderable extent, under the influence of the landlords. 11.796. Independently of those objections, till a considerable portion of the redundant population be taken away from the Highlands, would not the danger of an indefinite number of the population coming on the poor rates be great ? — I conceive it would be a very severe measure to introduce poor laws into the Highlands and Islands without giving the landlords relief by some effectual measure of emigration. 11.797. With regard to the island of Tyree, have you made a calculation of the redun- dant population there ? — It will be found in the report which is published, but I don't recollect the numbers. 11.798. Would it be impracticable to introduce poor laws into Tyree ? — I do not say it would be impracticable to introduce a poor law into Tyree or any other place in the High- lands, but it would be attended with very great difficulty. 11.799. Since you were last examined, have you observed any alteration in the condition POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 659 of those for whom the relief fund was instituted ? — I am inclined to think it is improving, Examinations, because we liave not lately had any applications for relief from the fund : also from having Olasoow. Bince met with gentlemen from the Highlands who say that the people are in a tolerably ^j^ C. Bair.l. comfortable position, and from the well known fact that for two years they have had more 5 May 1«43. than average harvests. 11.800. But do you consider that if there were for a year a bad harvest, the people would be again reduced to a state of destitution ? — I have not the slightest doubt that if they had a succession of bad harvests for two or three years they would be in a state of very, very great destitution. And I have found that, from the produce of some islands and dis- tricts and the want of work for the population. 11.801. Do you know whether the system of consolidating farms has been going on since you gave your evidence ? — I have reason to believe it has. Lord M'Donald has been carrying into effect a scheme, to which his lordship and the Glasgow and Edinburgh com- mittee were parties, for removing a number from his estates to the colonies. It was agreed that if his lordship gave 1/. a head for emigration, the Glasgow committee should give 10s. find the Edinburgh ^Iso 10s. 11.802. Are you able to give an estimate of the numbers who emigrated from the High- lands last year ? — I am not. 11.803. You have reason to believe that emigration is going on to a considerable extent ? ^-To a considerable extent, at all events from Lord M' Donald's estate. 11.804. With regard to the means of education, have you reason to believe that these have been extended since you give evidence ? — I have no reason to think so. After what was represented to the landlords, a vast deal of good might have been done if they had followed out what was stated for their consideration. Parties well acquainted with the subject, state, Highlanders when educated become emigrants. If they do not go abroad they come to the lowlands and get into more comfortable circumstances than in the place of their nativity. And I have no doubt that an improved system of education would produce a great improve- ment even on their physical condition. 11.805. You approve of children being taught English through the medium of Gaelic? — Decidedly. Teach them first in their own language, and then they more readily acquire the English. They are of little use in the lowlands without English. ll,80(j. But you approve of Gaelic as the instrument of teaching Enghsh ? — Yes, chiefly founding on Mr Anderson's reports. There is one point to which I alluded in my evidence before the select committee, — I mean with regard to medical attendance. Vast numbers have no opportunity of getting their children inoculated. There are districts of fifty miles without a medical man : the children are left without inoculation or vaccination : they are peculiarly liable to small-pox. Dr Cowan found that out of ninety-five afflicted with small- pox, seventy were from the Highlands, twenty-one from the lowlands, and only four from Ireland. This, I infer, arose from the want of inoculation, and that was caused by the want of medical attendance; whereas the Irish, having county dispensaries, have every faci- lity. I am also aware from Dr Perry, that a large proportion of those who are affected with fever are from the Highlands. It is not for me to suggest a remedy ; but if there were any sum paid to country surgeons for inoculating the poor, it would greatly diminish the ravages of disease. 11.807. The late vaccination act did not apply to Scotland .?— No. In Scotland— I should confine myself perhaps to Glasgow— there appears a great want of vaccination. The deaths in five years from small-pox alone were 2196. 11.808. Will you explain what precise modification on the poor laws you would suggest ? — The modification I would suggest is, that if a right be given to the able-bodied at all, there must be at least a district workhouse provided, so as to have a test ; but I add, that from the large districts, and the scattered population, there would be great difficulty, and great objections made to introduce those workhouses. 11.809. But considering those objections, do you, on the whole, recommend the erection of those workhouses, if no system of emigration be adopted in the meantime.' — I am not prepared to speak definitively as to that ; the subject altogether is surrounded with so many difficulties when you come to the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, that I cannot speak definitely upon it. 11.810. Does what you stated with regard to the Highlands and Islands, at all interfere with what you stated when you last gave evidence here, with regard to the expediency of workhouses for towns ?— Unquestionably not. My evidence with regard to towns was defi- nite, and I have no wish to have it in the slightest degree altered. But I am enabled, from being a citizen of a large town, and from having paid intimate attention to the poor in large towns, sucli as Glasgow, for many years, to give a definite opinion with reference to these ; whereas I cannot speak so explicitly with regard to the Highlands, where I have not been resident much. Those limitations which I formerly specified do not apply when large towns are spoken of. 11.811. In your previous evidence before this Commission you spoke of the propriety of an appeal to the sheriff, did you contemplate that at the same time the appeal to the Court of Session should be done away with ?— I did not. My idea was, that the appeal might be given to the sheriff in the first instance, but that the right of revising his judgment should not be taken away. 11.812. Then you would propose a double appeal ? — It should be allowed, but in prac- tice I should think it a very rare circumstance that there would be a double appeal — a second appeal after the sheriff had given his decision. Unless it were a very extreme de- cision on the one side or the other, the case would never be appealed. On the one side, 6G0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Examinations. I don't Conceive that the poor rate authorities would appeal a matter at all doubtful, as they O r.Asoow . must bear the expense. Whereas, on the other, if the decision were against the pauper, he Mr C. r.aird. would have difficulty in carrying his appeal, because a law-agent would know that unless May 1843. the cuse were clear for his client, he would not recover expenses. Therefore I think that a second appeal would be a very, very rare thing, and that parties would almost in every case be satisfied with the sherilFs judgment. 11.813. What would be the average expense" of an appeal to the sheriff by a pauper ? — I conceive the case might be discussed for from 10s. to 20s. in each instance. I am suppos- ing it a small debt case ; where there was no discussion, it would be about 10s. ; where witnesses where examined, with the expense of summoning them, it would be about 20s. 11.814. {Mr Campbell.) — Then you propose an appeal, as in the small debt court? — Yes. 11.815. {Mr Tivisleton.) — What would be the average expense of an appeal to the Court of Session ? — I could not state at present. 11,81(5. But the expense of an appeal to the Court of Session would not be an objection to your having that appeal ? — It would not. I would have the appeal to prevent the pos- sibility of any extreme judgment by a sheriff, being acted upon. A sheriff might give an extraordinary decision. He might fix upon an excessive sum ; and I should wish that the poor rate authorities should have the power of getting that overruled, and the decision reversed by a higher court. I may here add, that my reason for wishing an appeal for the poor rate authorities to the sheriff is for expedition, and to save expense. At present you allow an appeal to the Court of Session, where it is often next to impossible for a pauper to take a cause, and a very large expense is incurred, while you might have as sound a decision given by the sheriff — one that would satisfy all parties. 11.817. {Mr Camjyhell.) — Do you mean your evidence with regard to the Highlands to apply to the East or the West Highlands, or to the whole ? — It applies to the West and part of the North Highlands, Argyleshire, Ross-shire, and Inverness-shire. 11.818. But not Caithness, and part of Aberdeenshire? — Unquestionably not. 1 1.819. {Mr Twisleton.) — In visiting some of the houses of the unemployed yestei'day, we found that some masons, working for the committee, are earning 12s. a week — do you think it desirable that tliey should earn so much as that ? — I may state that I don't think any par- ties employed can earn so much as 12s. a week ; but it is possible that parties who have applied for relief to the fund, have, through their means, got employment from tlie town or from other parties, — a common enough case. And then we have not interfered with the rate of wages. Many have got employment through us, but did not get it from us ; and that explanation may account for the circumstance you mention. 11.820. Then they were regularly employed workmen, whom you got work for ? — Yes. 11.821. Have you anything to state in addition to your previous evidence with regard to towns? — Only in regard to the relief to be given. 11.822. What would you think a fair allowance for an old man past work and not bed- ridden ? — From 2s. 8d. to 3s. 6d. a week. 11.823. In that calculation how much would you estimate his expenses for provisions at.-" — Taking off one-sixth for rent, I would leave the rest for sustenance. 11.824. For an old married couple imder such circumstances, what would be a fair al- lowance ? — For an old married couple living together it might run from 4s. 6d. to 5s. 6d. a week. 11.825. For a widow with four children under ten .'' — Supposing she had no other means, about 6s. a week. 11.826. Supposing the rate of allowance increased in the manner you suggest, what do you think would be the increase on the assessment? — I have not formed any estimiite, for this reason, that I look for a better system, one which would extend over the whole of Glasgow, city and suburbs. 11.827. You would diminish the number on the permanent fund by more economical management and stricter attention to cases ; and by such efforts to keep down pauperism, you would make a considerable deduction ? — It is impossible for me to estimate what would be the saving from a stricter scrutiny, as in the relief fund. If higher rates were given with a better system of inspection, it would not raise the assessment so high as many seem to think. 11.828. Would you recommend a union of all the parishes in Glasgov/ for the purpose of administering the poor funds ? — 1 have not the least hesitation in recommending it, and I don't conceive that we shall have a good administration till we have one management. 11.829. How many directors would be necessary for the joint management in Glasgow ? — I should think a board of thirty ; but these again, as we did in the relief committee, should subdivide themselves into boards of management for the different districts. 11.830. You think uniformity of management might be secured by one board? — By a central board. 11.831. So that the rates of allowance might be revised by the whole united? — But that district committees of management should be appointed out of that central board. 11.832. What workhouse accommodation, with reference to the per centage of popula- tion, would you contemplate ? — I conceive the accommodation for the whole of Glasgow and the suburbs, should not be less than 1500 ; for I am still supposing that it may be necessary, and that it may be better indeed in many instances to give outdoor relief. 11.833. Does that include children? — Yes. ' 11,834. And lunatics ? — No. All these should be sent to a lunatic asylum. 11,835. Do you think accommodation for 1500 would be sufficient ? — At first it might be sufficient. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 661 11.836. Does that imply an assessment for giving relief to the able-bodied ? — It does. Examinations. 11.837. What was the population of Glasgow at last census? — About 282,000. Glasgow. 11.838. That provision would be less than one per cent. ? — It would in the workhouse. l 11,83^). Would you contemplate that there should be fewer in the Glasgow workhouse r, May 1843. than in the English workhouses ? — I should hope fewer, and it would be more reserved as a test. Relief would be better given in the majority of cases out of doors. One great and strong reason for having the whole of Glasgow and suburbs under one board, is to secure better management, and not have different modes of inquiry and administration within the precincts of the same city ; and also to secure for the poor people a more ready answer to their applications. At present a party may be two years and nine months in the Barony parish — he removes across the street — and he is in Glasgow proper — he may be two years and nine months there, and he may imagine himself in the Gorbals all the time. Then, perhaps, he removes to a neighbouring close — say Govan annexation — so that while he imagines he is in one parish all the time, he has not a right of relief in any of them ; and it appears to me that this state of things is very anomalous. 11.840. What parishes would you include? — The union would require to include Glas- gow with a certain extent around. 11.841. (Mr Campbell.) — The parliamentary boundary? — The parliamentary boundary would be a very good line. • 11.842. (Mr Jwideton.) — Supposing relief were granted to oble-bodied persons in towns, and not in rural districts; take the case of an able-bodied Highlander who is destitute in Glasgow, how would you deal with such a case, with reference to the parish to which he belonged ? — Unless he had a settlement — (I formerly expressed an opinion that the settle- ment ought to be for seven years) — I would give power to remove him to the parish where he had a settlement, at the expense of that parish. 14.843. But when he Came there you would not give him a right to relief? — There is the difficulty. Unless he had relief in his native parish, it would be hard to remove him there ; but still he ought, if destitute, to have relief. 11.844. But might not that be done by relieving him in the workhouse in town, and charging the expense on the Highland parish? — That is a very good mode. 11,84.5. Supposing the principal objection raised to that were, that individuals would come from the Highlands on account of their having relief in Glasgow, do you think that objection would be sufficiently met by stating that individuals would not come from a dis- tance for relief in the workhouse? — The case of parties coming for relief in a workhouse would be very few indeed. With an extended term of settlement, and the knowledge that they would only get relief in a workhouse, I believe the cases of those coming to get relief would be very few indeed. 11.846. So that any risk from that would be more than counterbalanced by the advan- tage of relieving destitution safely in that mode .'' — I am quite of that opinion. 11.847. (Mr Campbell.) — You say, supposing an able-bodied man from another parish, where he had no claim to relief, were found here, you would relieve him in the workhouse, a test being thereby furnished, and would charge the expense to his own parish, — would not that be giving him relief ? — It would ; but it would obviate the difficulty about getting work in his own parish for him. 11.848. (Mr Twisleton.) — And you do not contemplate the possibility of individuals com- ing for that specific purpose ? — Not when they know they would get it in the workhouse. 11.849. And this would rather be a plan to remedy the hardship and misery in some cases, which might be inflicted on an individual by removing him from Glasgow to his own parish, and yet not giving him relief when he gets to his own, parish ? — Yes, to escape the difficulty of not giving him relief in his own parish. 11.850. Supposing the term of settlement extended to seven years, do you think it would be more or less difficult than at present for a pauper to prove his claim to a settlement ? — It might be a little more difficult to prove the settlement, if the term were seven, instead of three years ; but the difficulty would not be so great that he might not very easily over- come it. The length of time requires more proof, but it multiplies the means of proof, ' because the fact of residence for seven years, makes a man known to a great number of persons. 11.851. So sometimes it would be more easy to prove a seven years' settlement than a a three years' ? — I should scarcely say that. 11.852. You were residing in Glasgow while the assessment was on means and sub- stance ? — Yes. 11.853. Do you approve of the alteration made to an assessment on rental instead of an ' assessment on means and substance ? — I decidedly do. 11.854. What was the objection to an assessment on means and substance ? — The inqui- sitorial mode in which it was laid on, and the injustice towards many parties. 11.855. Has the new mode given satisfaction generally? — I think it has given satisfac- tion. At the same time there is hardship on shopkeepers with large shops, from which they draw comparatively a small income. 11.856. But comparing the advantages and disadvantages, you think those hardships are less than under the old system ? — I am decidedly in favour of the present system. With reference to former questions, I would state, that while I see a difficulty that would attend the introduction of a poor law into the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, I would not wish to be understood as giving an opinion that such a law should not be introduced into these districts. On the contrary, if it should be found necessary to give relief in instances in which relief is not given at present in other parts of Scotland, it would become necessary (562 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaininatioiis. Glasgow. Mr C. Baird. 5 Mny ia4:t. to devise some plan by whicl^ relief may also be given to parties similarly situated in the Highlands and Islands. 11,857. {Mr Campbell.) — In short, you do not see at present how to get over the difficuU ties .'' — I do, except Vfhh regard to the Highland and Island parishes ; and I would require to investigate many points more materially before I gave a decided opinion with regard to them. Mr Fleming. William Fleming, Esq, of Barrochan, Examined :-^ 11.858. (Lord J5fZAaren.)— You live not far from Paisley ? — Betwixt six and seven miles. 11.859. And I believe you took a good deal of interest in the destitute condition of Paisley lately ? — So far as regarded my own part of it ; that is, the labouring part, but I had very little to do with the other. 11.860. Be so good as to state to us anything that may occur to you with regard to the general management of the labour committee .'' — I can give very little information with regard to the relief committee, because I attended very little to their proceedings ; and the reason was, that I did not approve of the system carried on at all. But the labour com- mittee seemed to work very well, and I attended that constantly, And we did a great deal of good by means of it, furnishing great numbers with employment — relieving them by giving work, instead of money without work, which seemed to me the best mode of giving relief. 11,8G1. On what kind of work were they generally emplojed? — Generally on labour in the country, digging, trenching, and the like. 11.862. Useful employment? — Yes, useful employment. The general plan followed in procuring work for them was, to get the farmers and others in the neighbourhood of Paisley to proceed with some improvement. We sent a superintendent to see the work, ascertain what it would cost, and make a bargain — ^to see, in short, what it could be done for. The committee generally lost only a small sum, besides what they had to pay to the superintend- ent ; so that a few hundred pounds went as far as several thousands, 11.863. And did you find the people employed generally satisfied? — A number would rather have done nothing ; but when they found that they could get nothing from the relief fund otherwise, they wore exceedingly glad to work for it. But a great proportion were people who had come over from Ireland as labourers, and were consequently capital spadesmen, 11.864. How long had they been living in Paisley and the neighbourhood ? — I could not exactly say. We endeavoured to ascertain that they had been at least three years in Paisley previous to the commencement of the distress. 11.865. Can you account at all for the great extent of the distress which existed at Paisley ? — ^I cannot. I understood it was, in a great measure, in consequence of a number of failures taking place in trade, and the number of hands thrown idle. 11.866. Does it consist with your knowledge that the failure of the town or corporation aggravated the distress much ? — I do not know anything of the failure of the corporation. 11.867. So far as your knowledge extends, the distress was owing to the general depres- sion in trade ?— ^Yes, and not only that, but to the failures among the manufacturers. From eight to nine hundred thousand pounds was, I believe, the extent of the failures ; and a great number of mills and public works were stopt. That was in October twelve- month — September and October ; but there was some distress before ; indeed there was some in August 1841. 11.868. You said you did not approve of the conduct of the relief committee ? — I did not approve of the system of giving relief without labour. 11.869. You objected on general principles 1 — I objected on general principles. I thought it was inducing and encouraging idleness. 11.870. Do you take any charge of the ordinary poor in the parbh in which you live .-' — I do ; I am the principal resident heritor. 11.871. What is the parish ?-™^The united parishes of Houstoun and Killellan. 11.872. Is there an assessment? — -There is no assessment. The funds are raised from voluntary assessment. 11.873. The heritors contribute their proportions? — Yes, the rest is made up by collec- tions at the church doors. For the last three or four years the subject has come more par- ticularly under my own observation, as the clergyman was unable to attend to such matters. But I have understood that it was always the best managed parish in that neighbourhood, in consequence of the system of administration set on foot by the late minister, Dr Menteith. 11.874. Are you of opinion that the present system works well ?^-Exceedingly well. I have heard no complaint at all. 11.875. (i/r Twisleton.) — Were you aware that the reason why the system of requiring work was abandoned, — was that after getting work they ceased to get work in consequence of the want of funds ?— That was not the case with the labour committee. 11.876. And you don't know whether in Greenock they did not give work from the want of funds ? — I don't know about it, 11.877. Do you think it very demoralizing to people to give relief without work? — I think so. 11.878. With regard to the farmers and others from whom work was obtained, do you approve, as a general principle, and without reference to the circumstances of the times, of POOR LAW INQUIRY COIVIMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 663 that system of giving relief by hiring out the parties to the farmers and others ? — We did not hire them out. Wo became contractors ourselves. 11.879. Do you approve of that? — I do. 11.880. Would not the tendency be to make farmers enter into bargains to get things done at a cheaper rate than the market price ? — A great deal of vt^ork would not have been -done at all if it had not been done cheaper ; that is, had the farmers not got the lands dug nearly as cheap as they vv^ould get them worked by the plough, they would not have had them dug. 11.881. As a permanent system, do you think it would lead to good results? — Wherever there is distress in a parish I think it a good system. There were a great many able-bodied men in my own parish who had difficulty in finding work. I employed from forty to sixty of them, and Mr Spiers, who has a very large property in the parish, also employed a greater number, and substituted the spade for ploughing. But I don't know how far that system could be carried on. 11.882. Are you aware that in the south of England it was a very common plan to pursue the same course, and that it led to most deplorable results ? — No. 11.883. (jyir Campbell.) — Can you see any harm in any man or men entering into a bar- gain to pay so many men so much per day, and then contract with the farmers to do so much per acre ? — No, I don't think there can be any harm. 11,88-t. Is it not the constant way in this country to engage men at day's wages^ and then to contract for doing work with their labour? — It is very common. Most of the draining work is done in that way. 11,88.5. And do you think abuse is unavoidable ? — No, I don't think so ; the superin- tendence is a great thing ; and without proper superintendence, I don't think labour in that way can be well performed. 11,88(3. {Mr Twisleton.) — And you are not aware of what was the practical result in England ? — No. 11.887. {Mr Camphell.) — Did the men get anything but from their wages ? — Not from the committee. 11.888. In England there was a system we understand of letting out the services of parties at a certain rate regularly and in ordinary times ; do you think that practice was in the least like the system adopted by you ? — I have heard that such a system was carried on in England ; but the plan of the committee was quite different. The labour committee contracted to dig or trench land at, say 2d. or 2|d. per pole for the farmer, although it cost them more, perhaps 3d., to accomplish the work. 11.889. And that being done on an emergency, does it become similar to a plan carried on year after year ?— No ; but I think the system must be injurious if carried on from year to year. 11.890. And one that would produce bad effects if persevered in? — I think so- Examiiiations. Glasgow. Mr Fleming. .5 May 184X Peter Hill, Esq., Governor of the Town's Hospital, Re-examined : — 11.891. {Lord Belhaven.) — We wish to know whether you can give us a statement with regard to two cases, one connected with Girvan, and the other with Old Monkland, which have recently occurred ? — Mr Hoss is the person who can give information upon that point. There was a man .sent from the police office : he had lived in the police office for three days. Mr Ross called upon him and enquired what parish he belonged to. It was found that he was a native of Girvan, and a cart was furnished to convey him, but he died before he got there. 11.892. {Mr Campbell.) — Do you recollect any application made by any of the Roman Catholic clergy to allow the poor here to go out on Sabbath ? — Yes. 11.893. And was that application granted? — Yes. All I said was, that if they got out in the morning they should not get out in the afternoon, as it was invidious towards those who came under the general rule. They were at perfect liberty to go out from seven to nine. We worship in the forenoon in the house ; and the inmates then could go out im- mediately for the afternoon to return at four o'clock. A Catholic priest came to me and asked if those who were of his persuasion could get out in the morning. I said, it is the same to me whether they go out in the morning or afternoon. He expressed himself satis- fied ; but they did not continue it long. They found it more agreeable to get out in the afternoon, that they might go and see their friends. That is the truth of the story : it is more than twelve months ago. Mr Hill. Dr James Campbell, Examined : — 11.894. (Lord Belhaven.) — Were you formerly a district surgeon ? — I was. 11.895. You are not so now ? — Not so now. 11.896. {Mi-Twisleton.) — In the Barony parish ? — In the Barony parish. 11.897. {Lord Belhaven!) — In consequence of instructions from the Commission you visited the house of Mrs M urray — is this your report ? — Yes, it is. It is a correct report. — [The report of the witness was then put in as follows :] — I certify that at the request of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the practical ope- Dr CampbelL 664 MINUTES OF E^aDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniiiintions. ration of the poor laws in Scotland, I this 4th day of May 1843 years, visited the inmates Gi-ASGow . pauper boarders of the Barony parish in that house, No. 56, Kirk Street, Calton, kept by J>r ( niiipbcll. ^^'■s Murray ; all of whom I found to be in a state of health as so far to be enabled to assist fi May im;t. themselves, except two ; — the one an insane man calling himself L>mie Onie, the other named Alexander M'Innes. Lunie Onie, the insane man, is apparently about twenty-five years of age, and is at pre- sent labouring under furious mania, and was at my visit tearing the bed-clothes, which consisted of an old dirty, ragged carpet coverlet, the only article on the bed in the way of clothing ; the bed itself was a coarse piece of pack-sheet, filled with dirty straw. This man was in a state of nudity, exposing his person ; there were two infirm persons in the room with him, but who neither could, nor did, seem to take any charge of him. On various parts of his body were observed bruises, which, according as Mrs Murray informed me were in- flicted by himself during excitement. Mrs Murray farther stated, that he has been one month in her house, and has been under the same excitement during the whole time, con- tinually tearing the bed-clothes, &c., and that he has not been visited by any medical man, or received any medical treatment. Mrs Murray could give no account of his history prior to his coming to her house. Alexander M'Innes, aged sixty-four, affected with (Gastrites) inflammation of stomach, and has been eight days labouring under present aff'ection, all of which time has been confined to bed, and by his own statement, and that of Mrs Murray, has not been visited or received any medical treatment whatsomever. I stated to Mrs Murray that this poor man ought immediately to be put under medical treatment, and that medicine would require to be given so as to act upon his alimentary canal. She replied that would be to her a great deal of trouble, as the man was now so weak, as not to be able to assist himself, and as she, Mrs Murray was both aged and infirm. On pointing out to Mrs Murray that the poor man was in most imminent danger, and that unless something was immediately done for his recovery, he would very soon die, which I hereby give as my opinion. She reluctantly said she would get the medicine for him that I had prescribed. I further recommended to Mrs Murray, that she should instantly acquaint the district surgeon of this poor man's case. The bed and bedding, the house in general, was in a most filthy condition. — On soul and conscience, JAMES CAMPBELL, Surgeon, 6, Struther Street, Calton. To the Poor Law Inquiry Commission. 11,898- Is that a common thing ? — In all the houses for the reception of paupers in the Barony that I have seen or heard of, they have received and do receive lunatics. 11.899. Is it a common lodging-house ? — It is used by the parish as a lodging-house, and I have seen mendicant poor, not paupers, in these places. They are put there by the autho- rity of the parish. Both infirm and insane parties are kept there, and the keeper is paid by the parish. 11.900. Don't you consider that an extremely dangerous practice? — I do. 11.901. {Mr Campbell.) — Do you consider the maniac mentioned in that report as a dan- gerous maniac ? — I do. 11.902. How long have you ceased to be a district surgeon of the Barony parish } — The date of my dismissal is the 24th of February 1842. 11.903. You say you were dismissed? — Yes. I wish that particularly noticed. 11.904. Upon what ground were you dismissed ? — I know of no reason. 11.905. Were you dismissed by the manngers? — By the sub-committee of the parish. 11.906. What do you suppose to be the reason — had you neglected any part of your duty? — No. I understand a reason assigned by a party, when moving for my dismissal was, that I was too kind to the poor, and that my kindness to the poor created a kind of popularity for me in the neighbourhood in which I reside, thereby increasing my emoluments. The parish of Barony never had a legally appointed person till I was appointed in 1 837 for Calton, though they were in the habit of granting a medical order to various medical men, and to me among the rest. 11.907. Had any fault been found with you by the managers from the time of your ap- pointment to your dismissal ? — No fault. 11.908. Have you heard that any fault was imputed.'' — I have heard that I was charged with overcharging the parish ; yet I was not then dismissed, nor until six months after- wards; and though I sought an explanation to justify myself it was refused me. 11.909. Were you called of late to visit a person named Leech, when fever was in the house in Silver Grove ? — I was not called ; but Mr Black, the district surgeon, was passing my door, and asked me to go down with him as a friend. 11.910. What did you find when you went there.'' — Twenty-two children affiected with febricula or common fever. 11.911. About how long ago? — About the loth of April. 11.912. To whom did the children belong.'' — To the parish of Barony. 11.913. And howjnany rooms were appropriated for their use? — One. 11.914. All were in one room .' — All in one room. 11.915. What was its sizei* — About fourteen feet square, judging according to ap- pearance. ll,91fi. Have you been in that house before.' — I have, but never in that room. It has been but lately added to Andrew Leech's establishment. 11,917. Is that room at the right-hand door as you enter the house ? — Yes. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 665 11.918. Had disease made considerable progress with the children when vou saw them ? Examinations. —It had. ' Glasgow. 11.919. Did you go into any other part of the house ? — Not into any other. p,. oampbeii. 11.920. Who was taking charge of the children when you went in ? — Mrs Leech and one 5 May ii;43. of the women paupers. 11.921. Was the woman a lodger likewise in the house ? — A lodger likewise in the house. 11.922. Did you see any other pauper lodgers that day ? — Not that I could positively state. 11.923. Had Mr Black been attending the children before the day he carried you there ? —He had. 11.924. What was his reason for taking you there ? — He did not assign any particular reason. 11,92.5. Did you return to see the children ? — ^No. In act, the visit was per chance — it was accidental — to accompany Mr Black. 11.926. While you were a district surgeon, were you accustomed to visit in Leech's house ? — Yes. 11.927. What is the number of children you have seen there on the occasion of your visit — what is the greatest number ? — Thirteen children and four women in one room. 11.928. Which? — The room off the kitchen in Andrew Leech's. 11.929. What was the size ? — About twelve feet square. 11.930. Was that before the room which was lately added to Leech's establishment ? — Yes. 11.931. And the thirteen children and four women were all in that room?— Yes. 11.932. Was there fever among them at the time ? — There was. 11.933. What kind?— Typhus. 11.934. How long is that ago ? — June 1841. 11.935. Did you continue to visit them ? — I did. 11.936. Were there any deaths \ — There were removals to the hospital, and deaths took place there. 11.937. How many removals took place to the hospital? — Three. 11.938. You continued to visit that house at various periods after June 1841 ? — Till my dismissal by the parish. 11.939. Did you find any fever after that period, June 1841 ? — It took every individual, with the exception of Andrew Leech himself. 11.940. How do you account for its being so prevalent in the house at this time ? — There are four or five children of a woman named Jeans, a parishioner of the Barony, who had been refused parochial relief, though she had these five children under ten years of age. She was at last obliged to take shelter in the night asylum, where she caught typhus, whence she was removed to the Glasgow royal infirmary, where she died. The youngest, a child at her breast, was affected, — the children were taken to Mr Maclaren's ofiice, who sent them all out to the house of Andrew Leech ; and the contagion spread through the whole house. The woman had been once a most respectable person. 11.941. Do you know how those cases of fever you saw lately in Leech's house were introduced, — how do you know that they were sent to Leech's house by the Barony parish ? — First, they were patients of mine ; secondly, they were tenants in a property of which I have the charge ; thirdly, the authorities of the Barony parish showed me a letter from Aberdeen, setting forth the woman's claim on the parish, and inquired whether the claim was correct, when I answered it was. The woman, with her husband, had resided in Bridgeton, Barony parish, for fifteen months; in the same land with myself in the Barony parish for twelve months, and in the land adjoining for twelve months, making in all three years and three months. She and her husband removed to Gorbals, where he died of consumption. She returned to her native place, Aberdeen, and applied for parochial re- lief, her husband having once been a merchant there. Her claim was refused by the parish of Aberdeen. The authorities in Aberdeen transmitted a letter to the parish of Barony, setting forth the statement which I have now made ; which letter was shown to me. They still refused her claim ; and early in the month of March or April 1841, the authorities of Aberdeen sent the woman through from Aberdeen to Glasgow, when she called at my house for a certificate of her residence in the Barony. 11.942. Then, when she returned to Aberdeen, the authorities in Aberdeen refused her claim, because she had lost her claim with them, and acquired one in the Barony parish ? — Yes. 11.943. And there was no doubt, from the statement you make, that she had acquired a right to relief once in the Barony parish ? — It was stated to the relieving officer, in the letter that was sent from Aberdeen, that he had only to apply to me and to another for the truth. 11.944. And what ground did he assign for the refusal ? — None. 11.945. How long had the husband resided in the Gorbals before his death ? — Three months. 11.946. What was the name of the woman ? — Widow Jeans. 11.947. Do you take the date, with regard to that case of fever in Leech's house, from your report book ? — I do. 11.948. During the time you have been district surgeon in the Barony parish, have you seen many cases of fever where they boarded orphan children ? — Yes. 11.949. Were they more prevalent among them than among other children in the same neighbourhood .'' — Yes. 4 Q I 666 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 11,950. To what cause do you attribute that prevalence ! — To the general causes that G lasgow . ^^^ propagation to fever, namely, over-crowding, want of ventilation, &c. Drf'ampbcU. 11,1'5J. Are children generally very crowded in the places where they are sent by the ."> May 1843. Barony parish ? — Not always very crowded. The house is sometimes more to blame than over-crowding. 11,952. Are the houses of an improper description ? — Of a very inferior description ; in many cases they are small, low-roofed, damp. 11,95;^. Are the children mixed with the adults in the same house? — In almost every case that I can call to remembrance, I have seen the adult and the young together. 11.954. Is there any separation of sexes among the adults ? — There is an attempt. But not always effectually. 11.955. Are the houses to which the Barony paupers are sent, something of the nature of a private poorhouse — substitutes for poorhouses ? — Yes. 11.956. There is a house called Arthur Gilmour's house, where the Barony parish send children and adults ? — Yes. 11.957. Is that of the same character as Leech's? — It is rather more comfortable on account of the kindness of Mrs Gilmour. The inmates are better treated ; but the house is not more comfortable. 11.958. Have you seen fever in that house ? — I cannot at this moment distinctly recollect. 11.959. What is the number of people you have seen in it? — To the best of my recollection I have seen aa many as fourteen in two rooms. 11.960. Young and old ? — Young and old. The elder people are imbecile or insane, and the younger are orphan children. 11.961. Does one room enter through the other? — It does. 11.962. What is the size of the two rooms ? — Less than ten feet square. Arthur Gilmour and his wife and family occupy the two left-hand rooms. 11.963. The kitchen and the room within it ?— Yes. 11.964. Can you mention any other house, where the Barony parish are in the habit of keeping pauper children and adults? — The house of David Hunter. 11.965. The house of Murray — were you ever in it .' — Never in it before I was requested by the Commission to report upon it. It is not in my district. 11.966. Where is David Hunter's house situated ? — In Camlachie, Barony parish. 11.967. How many paupers have you seen in that house, adults and children? — It being a number of years since I was there, I cannot distinctly state. 11.968. Were there any insane ? — Yes. 11.969. Are they well taken care of in that house ? — The last time I was there was with Mr M'Donald, the clerk to the Barony parish, in 1839. He wished to get in to see the state of the inmates, but was refused, as we understood some of the females were in a state of nudity — in their furiousness, having torn their clothes. 11.970. Did you make your way in ? — No. 11.971. Did you visit the patients afterwards ? — No. The charge of that house passed into the hands of Mr J. W. Black. 11.972. Is he in charge of it at present ? — I think so, but cannot be positive. 11.973. Is he in charge of Mrs Murray's ? — I rather think it has gone to Dr Paterson. 11.974. Are you acquainted with any other houses of the same kind in the Barony ? — Not on a large scale. 11.975. But on any scale at all? — They have some. 11.976. You know the houses ?— Yes, I do. They are migratory. There was one at No. 12, M'Kechinie Street, but it is now abandoned. 11.977. When you were inspecting surgeon of the district, did you ever make a repre- sentation to the managers of the Barony parish with regard to the state of those houses ? — I made a representation with regard to Andrew Leech's in June 1841, to Mr Maclaren. 11.978. And was any attention paid to it ! — None. 11.979. Did you ever repeat your representation ? — I made mention to him of the matter again. 11.980. Did you make any representation with regard to the crowded state of Gilmour's house ? — No. I always looked on Gilmour's as being the best I had ever visited. 11.981. Did you make any representation with regard to being refused admission to Hunter's ? — No. 11.982. Was it the clerk of the parish that was with you at the time ? — It was. 11.983. Was it on that account that you did not think it necessary to report ? — It was he that was wanting in ; I was not visiting professionally. 1 1.984. You state that threo from Leech's house were sent to the hospital ?— Yes. 11.985. Then your representations were attended to so far? — They were attended to in all cases of fever. The reason that the children were not sent to the hospital was because they were too young to be admitted. 11.986. What did you represent with regard to Leech's house, — that the children should be taken care of better ? — I represented generally with regard to the over-crowding. 1 1.987. You only represented the matter to Mr Maclaren ? — Yes. He was the party with whom we had to do. 11.988. You had no direct communication with the managers ? — No ; neither were we in- structed to have direct communication. 11.989. (Mr Twisleton.) — Did they ever consult you at their meetings? — We drew up reports half yearly. 11.990. And these were signed? — By each individual who drew up a report. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 667 11.991. Did you report on the crowded state of the house? — No. Our reports were but an abstract of the cases treated by us ; and as to the over-crowding of the houses in my dis- trict, the fact was as well known to some of the committee of managers as it was to me. The factor of Leech's house is Mr Maclaren the superintendent ; and the proprietor of Mrs Gilmour's is a manager, and one of the sub-committee. 11.992. {Mr Robertson.) — From whom did you hold your appointment, — from the mana- gers or the superintendent ? — From the managers, I understood ; though I received no note of it. The monthly committee who manage were the parties from whom I received my appointment. 11.993. {Lord Belhaven.) — Have you anything further to state? — I have nothing further except that it would be very beneficial for the well-being of the poor if the management of the poor were committed to individuals under government, who should have the oversight ; and I look upon a commissioner being appointed to watch over the interests of the poor as a measure which would be of much benefit both to the poor and the rate-payers. I have long entertained that opinion. Exaniitiiitions. Glasgow. Dr Campbell. 5 Mav 184;<. Archibald Newall, Esq., Re-examined :- Mr K. Newall. 11.994. {Mr Campbell.') — There are some matters which you wished to state to us that have occurred to you since you were last here ? — With regard to the law, I have to state generally that it is not so defective in itself as in its working, and that each parish has its own mode of working the law. 11.995. Then you would propose some general measure with regard to the working of the law ? — Something like that. Each parish has a system of its own in Glasgov\r. The Barony has one ; the Gorbals another ; and each has a different system. If they could be brought under one regular system of management, it would be a great improvement. 11.996. Would you see any objection to uniting all the parishes within the parliamentary boundary into one ? — I see no objection ; but I would take the whole Barony parish within the boundary, 11.997. Is there any of the Barony parish beyond the parliamentary boundary ? — A large portion of it. 11.998. Would you take it all in? — Yes. It would make the assessment better. 11.999. Is there anything else you have to say ? — The only other thing is with regard to the mode of management. I would add about agency, that I am still of the same opinion. There ought to be an extended agency with unpaid officers. 12.000. {Lord Belhaven.) — Unpaid ? — An unpaid agency, if it were possible to get it. The view I have taken up — (perhaps it may be very incorrect)— now that this Commission is sitting, and a notion is abroad that the Commission is going to lay the foundation for a great many changes, is to have a considerable number of deacons, and take the charge out of the kirk-sessions, and put it into the deacon's court, and also to have a sub-division into districts, so that the circumstances of every individual may be known. 12.001. You are speaking of Glasgow ? — Of Glasgow alone. And keeping the regular parish test besides, to see how they are moving backwards and forwards. 12.002. Do you think it practicable to get an unpaid agency ? — I don't know that you would succeed unless you could rouse people. 12.003. Do you think it would be practicable, if they thought they could save some money ? — It might, if they thought they could save money. 12.004. {Mr Campbell.) — And would you see any objection if, in the Barony, the same sort of agency were provided ? — Not at all. So much the better. 12.005. Have you anything further to state ? — I would urge the necessity for a work- house, fixing it on the same principle as the old correction-houses. The magistrates had power to commit to the correction-houses the persons who were taken before them. 12.006. {Mr Campbell.) — Vagrants and sturdy beggars ? — Vagrants and sturdy beggars. 12.007. {Lord Belhaven.) — You meant by a workhouse a place where they should be confined ? — Both for punishment and for industry. 12.008. Where they would be confined for a certain time? — Yes. 12.009. Not allowed to go out till their time had expired ? — Not to go out till their time had expired, unless they had got a good character from the governor of the institution. 12.010. Some house of industry ? — Some house of industry; and the attempt is now made to get that done. The great reason for it here is, that hitherto when paupers have been taken up and brought before the magistrates, the magistrates have refused to convict them and send them to bridewell. The magistrates sent them to the streets, and there they were at their old trade. 12.011. {Mr CampJe^;.)— Have you anything further to state ? — I have nothing further at present. Mr Maclaren, Superintendent of Barony parish. Re-examined : — 12.012. {Mr Campbell.) — ^You stated when you were last here, that the managers of the Barony boarded out the children ? — Yes, they do. 12.013. How many houses have you in which they are boarded out ? — I could not say. Mr Maclaren. 668 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Mr Maclaren, 5 May 1843. 12.014, (J/r Twialeton.) — Ten, twenty, or thirty ? — Oh, a great deal more. 12.015. (Mr Campbell.) — How are these houses chosen? — With the exception of a very few, we make them bring a certificate of character. There are some houses we put them in till we get a place for them. 12,010. But those who keep the children have to bring certificates ? — Yes — generally from ministers and elders. 12.017. And, generally, with regard to their moral conduct and character? — Yes. I think we have a school in Calton, ■\vhere there are about 100 — from 95 to 110. 12.018. Have you adult paupers in the same houses with the children ? — In some few cases. 12.019. Are there any insane patients in the houses where the children Are kept? — In some one or two cases, so far as my memory serves me. There may be three, so far as 1 recollect 12.020. ^Miere are they?— In Calton. 12.021. Their names do you recollect? — There is Mrs Leech — I don't recollect Mrs Gllmour — and Mrs ilmTay. 12.022. Has Mrs Gilmour any? — I think she has, 12.023. Is it your business to inspect these houses — have you done so lately? — At times, 12.024. Have you seen Leech's house lately ? — Some months since, 12.025. You know there was fever there lately? — Yes, 12.026. Do you know how many children are in one room there ? — I don't know ; but there are some childi-en deserted by then- parents. I sent them to an elder. There was no other place to send them to but there, I believe they were sent to the infirmary. The infirmary people said it was not fever. They brought the fever in, and the surgeon said they were not fit to go for fever, 12.027. Do you know that there were eighteen children in the house at the time? — There might be a number. There was a family of the name of Bullock — another of the name of Stewart. They come at night, and we put them where we can. 12.028. Do you recollect typhus in that house in June 1841 ? — It might be so ; but I do not recollect. I don't think a family was there then. 12.029. Don't you recollect whether there were twenty children in one room at that time ? — I am not aware of it. It might be so. But I could not be sure unless I were looking at the books. 12.030. Do you know the number of inmates in Gilmour's house ? — Not exactly, I know I was obliged to take a woman from the infirmary, and to send her there. I was obliged to remove the woman, but I had no other place where to put her, 12.031. Have you inspected Mm-ray's house lately? — I was in the kitchen a few minutes some days ago. 12.032. How long ago ? — I am not exactly certain. 12.033. Do you know that there is a maniac in that house ? — There was a man sent in to me. 12.034. Is his name Lionel O'Neil ? — I could not say. From what I could learn he had been working out in some of the mining districts. He was found lying at the back of the road at Mlllerstown. Two men came to me ; and I sent a man with a noddy, and put him into Mrs Murray's. According as he said himself, he was only two years from Armagh. 12.035. How long ago is it since he was found ? — It is about six weeks since he came to me. 12.036. And you sent him to Murray's ? — For a short time, till I could see. 12.037. Have you been in Murray's house since he was sent there ? — No. I had not time last month, 12.038. Was he in a violent state when he was sent there ? — He was not in a violent state. He seemed intoxicated. He could not stand. 12.039. Did you send any medical man to see him ? — I think I did. 12.040. Who was the medical man ? — Mr Black. I gave orders for it — I could not be sure — to see what was the matter, and what he could bring out of him. 12.041. Did Black make any report about the situation of the man ?— So far aa my memory goes, he said he could make nothing of him. 12.042. Is Black the surgeon of that district ? — Yes. 12.043. He makes montldy reports ? — Six montlily reports. 12.044. And is there any other report? — But there is not a general report. 12.045. Wlio appoint the district surgeons? — The committee of heritors and kirk-session. 12.046. And who dismiss ? — The same. 12.047. Was Dr Campbell surgeon iu the Barony ? — Yes. 12.048. Was he dismissed ? — I think so. 12.049. Do you know the reason why he was dismissed ? — I really cannot say. There was a difference betwixt him and the heritors. ^ 12,050. It is necessary to state to you that, in discharge of our duty, having yesterday visited various houses which the managers of the Barony parish use for the purpose of boarding poor children we went into the house of a person of the name of Murray, as I think, 56, Kirk Street, where we found various individuals boarded by the parish, amongst others we found a maniac sitting almost in a state of nudity before the fire, with bruises or sores on his skin ; and we found lying in a small adjoining apartment an old man who ap- peared to be dying ; we found also several other boarders of the parish, and they seemed devoid of bedding, and with scarcely any covering. We inquired at the mistress of the house whether any medical person had seen the maniac, and the old person to whom I have referred ; and we, believing that Mr Campbell, who has a surgeon or apothecary's shop, POOR LAW mQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 669 was the inspecting surgeon appointed by the hospital, desired him to repair to the house, and report with regard to the state of these individuals. The report was given to us this morning, and I shall be glad if you can give any explanation on the subject? — I must say that I did not know till this moment that he was in such a state. I know he was brought to me in that state which I mentioned. I knew he had no claim on the Barony. I knew it was my duty to put him somewhere. I was so overpowered with work last week that I was not able to attend to the case. But I intended to do so in a few days. With regard to the children at Mrs Murray's they are there perhaps for a month or six weeks. I am not aware that we have any children constantly boarded ^vith her. And for the other man, M'Innes, I did not know that he was badly ; and Mrs Murray, if one is badly, has nothing to do but to come and get an order on the surgeon. She was employed by the Barony parish long, long before I was treasurer. 12.051. It is necessary to mention to you also that we visited the house of a person named Leech, where we found there was fever, and some of the children had been taken to the in- firmary. We found in one room a woman and three children lying in one bed, who, we were told, were boarders from the Barony parish. One of these children was said to have very recently had fever, and was in the same bed with the others. And in the other room we found a child coiled up in a comer in a state in which a chUd ought not to be. In the kitchen we found a number of children not looking, so far as their appearance showed, in a healthy condition ; and in the adjoining room we found Mrs Leech recovering from fever, and we found her husband on a chair recovered : and we were told that fever had been introduced by two children of the name of Stewart sent by the Barony parish ? — They were. They were from a country parish. Their mother had deserted them. Dr Black will teU you to-morrow about tiiem. They were sent to that house ; and even those I intended to remove in a short time. About the short beds I refer to Dr Paterson. I admit it is three or four months since I inspected. 12.052. Then are we to understood that your duties are so numerous and heavy that they do not admit of your examining the boarding-houses for the children and adults, so frequently as you would consider it your duty to do so ? — If I were able to do as I should wish to do I would visit oftener. There are some hundreds of children. I have to visit all the new cases ; and the other cases I would certainly visit more frequently if time would permit. 12.053. Do the managers appoint a visiting committee to inspect the children and to visit the houses where the children are boarded ? — Sometimes the elders and deacons visit. Where we have them in a country parish a committee is sent along with me. 12.054. They visit with you? — Yes. 12.055. Who is the elder in the district where Murray's house. Kirk Street, is situated ? — There are two of them, ]VIr Sutherland and Mr Forester, both tailors, in Kirk Street and in Green Street. 12.056. Who is the elder in Leech's district ?— There is a deacon. It is part of the elder's duty to visit the boarding-houses. It is his duty to look after the poor in his district. If they have been getting for a time from the parish, and their circumstances improve, then it is his duty to report and have them cut off. 12.057. Then we are to understand that it is not the general custom of the Barony parish to board their orphan children where there are idiots or lunatics : that there are only two or three houses where that occurs ? — No ; and they are not allowed to go into the same room. 12.058. You know Ai-thur Gilmoiu-'s house — there are some children and also idiots there ? — Yes ; but the children are at one end and the idiots at the other. That is the only house where we have had them for any time. 12.059. At Hunter's, Camlachie Toll? — There are not, so far as I recollect, any there. I recollect a boy. We suspected we had found his parents. We wished to remove him ; but Hunter's people said they were so fond of him that they would keep him. 12.060. Who were his parents ? — Strangers made inquiry. They made inquiry till they found he was taken care of. 12.061. Then the Hunters were so attached to the child that they did not like to part They did not like to part with it. Sometimes elders or deacons put out a boy. Would you make out a list of those who are boarded out — the orphans and idiots ? Examinations. Glasgow. mthit?- 12,062 —Yes. 12,063. Mr Maclaren. 5 May 1 843. You have no list made out ? — None made out. I would do it if you wish it ; but it would take time. I wish to state, that it was not Dr Black, but Dr IVIiUer, whom I em- ployed to visit the maniac. He is resident in George Street. Mr Henderson, Inspector of the Relief Committee, Re-examined : — 12.064. {Mr Twisleton.) — Some of the imemployed on the relief fund are now employed hewing stones for the town ? — ^Yes ; on the Green. 12.065. While the hewing is going on, have they anytliing to do with the relief commit- tee ? — The only thing the relief committee have to do with it is, that the money comes through the hands of Mr Scott. It was the relief committee that sent the men there. Mr Strang, the chamberlain, wished them sent. 12.066. Does Mr Scott pay them ? — He pays them. The money comes all through the hands of Mr Scott. 12.067. Then it is generally work performed for the town ? — Quite so. Mr Henderson. 670 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Exaiiiiiiatioiis. Glasgow. Mr Henderson. .-. Mav 1843. 12,068. And is that at the regular rate of wages ? — No. Wages are generally about ISa. a week ; but they have not rtore than 12s. 12,0(59. Is it on the same footing with which the relief committee contract for work with other individuals ? — I believe it is. 12.070. What are the wages a mason may earn ? — From 10s. to 12s. per week. At first they had Is. 6d. a day — 9s. a week. The superintendent found they did very little work and lie put them on piece-work. During the time they were on day's wages, they did not finish more than five or 6 even stones ; and since they have been put on piece-work, they can finish from sixteen to twenty. 12.071. Showing, therefore, that while they were paid by the day, they made two-thii'ds less than they were well able to do ? — They are well able to do what they finish now. 12.072. Was there a regular superintendent over them when they were working at the Green ? — There was a foreman employed by the city chamberlain. He has the charge, and looks after the masons. There is Mr Reid, who looks after all the imemployed. He goes round and sees that the work is done according to contract. 12.073. But while they were employed by the day? — There was no superintendent, but they had an old man who was employed by IVIr Strang. 12.074. Is it difficult for masons to obtain work? — At present it is. Very few buildings are going on at present. There is not a mason on the Green who, if without employment then, coidd get any at aJL There axe many masons applying whom we are not able to send there. . 12,075. What is the rate of wages for common labourers in Glasgow? — From 9s. to 128. 12.076. The rate of wages received by masons is higher than that of common labourers ? — About the same rate in the regular way. 12.077. (Mr Campbell.) — You stated when you were last examined here, that in your opinion a great many who were out of employment were such that in ordinary times they would not be employed ? — Yes ; and I have had no occasion to alter my opinion in that respect. 12.078. There are still upon your list parties who, you have no doubt, are of good cha- racter ? — A good many whom I consider respectable tradesmen. 12.079. Have you visited any of the dwellings of the lower class of Irish labourers ; are their houses in a tolerable state ? — In a shocking dirty state. 12.080. Have you been in Ireland ? — Yes. 12.081. Have you ever visited their houses there ? — No, I never visited their houses. 12.082. Are the Irish coming over of late years here in great nmnbers ? — Yes. 12.083. Are you aware of any cause? — The only cause I am aware of is the poor law for Ireland. It is sending a great many of them over here. It is to avoid getting into the work- houses. I think they are coming over to Scotland to get an industrial residence, to avoid being confined in workhouses. 12.084. (3fr Twisleton.) — You think they would come over to Scotland more readily, now that they can get relief in workhouses, than they would when there was no provision for them in Ireland ? — Yes. 12.085. (Mr RobeHson^ — Do you think they aa readily get private charity in Ireland as before ? — No. 12.086. {Mr Twisleton.) — This is a mere speculation of yours ? — Yes. 12.087. If the passage were cheaper, would a great many more come to avoid the work- houses ? — No. That is the opinion I have heard expressed. 12.088. Your opinion is formed according to information received from others? — Yes; from others, who appear to know better about the cause. 12.089. Have you any statistical information with regard to the numbers that come?— I have not. 12.090. With regard to the numbers who come, your opinion is the general impression ? —Yes. 12.091. Was not the influx of the Irish increased by the construction of the Edinburgh and Glasgow railroad ; of the Glasgow and Greenock railroad ; and of the Glasgow and Ayr railroad ? — Yes, these brought many from Ireland. Saturday, &th May 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Viscount Melville, James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIE. Mr J. Miller. 6 May 1843. James Miller, Esq., Examined : — 12.092. {Mr Campbell.) — You are a surgeon in Glasgow ? — Yes. 12.093. Are you one of the district surgeons employed in the Barony parish to attend their poor ? — Yes. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 671 12.094. Do you recollect being asked by Mr Maclaren, the inspector of the poor, to visit Examinationg. a person of the name of Lionel O'Neil, in the house of Mrs Murray, Kirk Street ? — No. I Glasgow. recoUcct visiting a patient in that house— I don't know M'hether the name was O'Neil Mr J. Miller. or not. May 184a. 12.095. This person was found in the neighbourhood, and brought to the inspector in a state of lunacy ? — In the neighbourhood of Millerstown. 12.096. How long ago did you see him ? — About four weeks ago. 12.097. In what state did you find him?— I found him attempting to come into town between two others, quite incapable of walking, like a person in the last stage of intoxication. I got him taken into the house, and examined him, and found him in a state of great exhaus- tion, and in a kind of stupor, incapable of attending to anything said to him. I could get no intelligible answer from him. The only thing he seemed to take notice of was food when it was placed before him. 12.098. Where is Millersto\^'n ? — East of the town about four miles. It was a mile on this side of it where I saw him ; they had brought him in so far, and were attempting to bring him into town. 12.099. Did you give directions about him ? — Yes. I did not know very well what to do with the case: it did not seem a case very fit for the infirmary — he seemed suffering from exhaustion, want of food, and cold. He did not appear in a state for a lunatic asylum, so I told the persons who had him, if they could make a bed for him, to give him some stimu- lants and food, and the parish would pay for them. They objected, and I left them, desiring some of them to come to towai and receive further instructions. 12.100. Had the man clothing when you saw him?— Yes, he was dressed as a labourer. His hands were like those of a labourer, as if he had been working not very long since. 12.101. Did you think him in a deranged state ? — Not exactly so. I thought him in such a state, that a week or a day or two's rest would restore him. There was nothing that could not be accounted for by privation. 12.102. You thought his appearance coidd be accounted for by privation, want of food, and exposure to cold, and that a day or two would bring him round ? — Yes. 12.103. Did you report the case to Mr Maclaren ? — Yes. 12.104. Did you receive instructions from him ? — No, no instructions. I understood that the person in whose house I found him would be requested to bring him in a noddy to town. 12,10<'>. With whom was that agreement made? — Mr Maclaren. 12.106. Whei'e was the person to call ? — At JMr Maclaren's house. 12.107. You know no more of the case since ?— Two or three days after (I was a little anxious about the case— I was not very sure but that he might be insane, or that the case woxdd end in insanity), I called on Mr Maclaren and inquired ; and he told me that the man was in a place in Calton. I called, and found his ptdse better, but skin feverish. He was unwilling to speak still. He told his name, but I have forgot it. He having got no medicine, I gave a prescription, and left him. I did not tliink him a patient of mine : he was not a patient of mine, as I did not know what was his state, till I called for my own satisfaction. 12.108. WTien did you call ? — It was the second or third day. 12.109. Have you seen him again since ? — No, I have seen nothing of the case since. 12.110. Is the house in which he resides in yoiu- district? — No. 12.111. In whose? — I cannot exactly say; it is Calton district, and there are three or four surgeons in that district. 12.112. In what state did you find the house, — had he a bed ? — He was lying on straw, covered with some kind of covering. It was a miserable looking house ; such a house as we find paupers in. 12.113. In yoiu- own district are there any houses in which the Barony parish board paupers ? — I am not aware : I never had a case of this kind. I never knew of a case being sent to a lodging-house before, and I did not know what to do with the patient. 12.114. And there are not in your district any houses that take in pauper boarders from the parish ? — There is a house, by the bye, in Cowcaddens, where there are a number of children. I have known children boarded there. 12.115. Do you know the name of the person in Cowcaddens ? — I cannot tell. 12.116. There are a number of children boarded in that house? — There are seven or eight lately come under my charge. 12.117. Are adults boarded in the same house ? — I am not aware of it. I have known of other children being boarded. 12.118. What accommodation have those children in the house in Cowcaddens ? — I did not examine into the accommodation. I found them all standing on the floor, and afflicted with j itch. ■ 12,119. Were they aU infected?— All. 12.120. What sort of house was it — was it equal to a common labourer's house ? — Yes, of the same character : not so bad as many houses. 12.121. Was it not so bad as the houses in Kirk Street? — ^It did not appear to be so. However, my attention has never been directed to the state in which they are : my duty is medical altogether. I avoid doing anything more. It would be a very ii-ksome task to perform the duty of an elder also. . 12,122. Then you consider your duty entirely confined to the health of the poor? — Yes. ll^P 12,123. {Mr Tivisleton.) — But if, in visiting this house, you saw anything likely to be ■^" prejudicial to the health of the persons boarded there, would you think it your duty to bring it under the notice of the managers ? — Oh, yes ; that is about the health of parties in dis- ease : we have nothing to do with their habits. k 672 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE !^xaniinations, Glasoow. Mr J. Miller. 6 May 1843. 12.124. You make that distinction : you do not think, if the people were well, that it is part of yoiu: duty to advert to their condition? — ^No. 12.125. Do you consider it your duty to visit generally among the paupers, with reference to the state of their health, or merely when you are sent for to a person diseased ? — Just when a person is diseased. 12.126. Are the children in Cowcaddens better? — They are recovering : they seem all in good health. 12.127. Would you not consider it part of yoiu* duty, so far as in you lay, to prevent paupers from becoming ill, as well as to cmre them when they are ill ? — Certainly. I can't act without a line ; but if I saw any urgent case, it certainly would be my duty to speak of it. 12.128. {Mr Campbell.) — But you don't visit paupers unless when you receive a line from an elder to do so ?— No. 12.129. {Mr Twisleton.) — With regard to an aged person on the permanent roll, is it re- quisite that such a person should have a line before you are called in ? — The line terminates every month. The line is only valid, so far as remuneration is concerned, to the end of the month, and they must then get another line. Of coiu-se, if necessary, I call and tell them to get another line. 12.130. But there are no persons on the permanent roU whom you visit without a line ? — No. 12.131. Are the district surgeons paid by salary, or according to the cases they attend ? — According to the cases they uttend. 12.132. And with regard to aged persons, even if they are paupers on the roll, you reqiure a specific order ? — Yes. Mr Hutcheson. William Hutcheson, Esq., M.D., Physician to the Lunatic Asylum, Re-examined : — 12.133. {Mr Twisleton.) — Can you give information with regard to the way in which the Insane poor in the Highlands are treated ? — In general, they are left, as long as they possibly can be, at large, wandering about through the country, and, when they become dangerous, they are tied with ropes, chained, handcuffed, confined in outhouses, or in some house apart from others, and occasionally in some of the cottars' houses. 12.134. Previous to their becoming dangerous, have you reason to believe that they are well treated ? — They are not treated at all — that is the best treatment they receive ; other- wise they are ill-used. They have no medical treatment. 12.135. Are not the people kind to them ? — They are kind so long as they are not trouble- some : their feeling is to be kind to any half-witted persons ; but the moment they become troublesome they are very iU treated. 12,13G. When a person has not become dangerous, without reference to the facilities afforded for cure in a lunatic asylum, do you think his being allowed to go at large, and from house to house, and experiencing the kindness of neighbours, may add to his happiness ? — I don't think so. They are subject to the want of comfort, to cold, and the like — to the want of physical comforts, at all events : and they feel it, unless in cases where the individual is of a happy frame of mind, in which case he will be happy anywhere. If they imagine they are objects of persecution, or are imder an evil spirit, wandering about is apt to increase their malady, and to make them feel more melancholy, or goad them on to fury. 12.137. Have you been much in the Highlands yourself? — No; very little. 12.138. But what you speak of as to their treatment — is it from information, or from personal observation ? — From what I have collected, and from the reports of cases afterwards imder my care, the accounts of clergymen, medical men, and resident persons. . 12.139. Do you disapprove of the system of farming out the insane ? — Decidedly. 12.140. Economy is pleaded as the reason for pursuing that system ? — It is one ; they assign another, that the patients are more happy, bemg at large. This is merely assumed — economy is the true reason. 12.141. Do you think in the longrun it is more economical to farm them out? — Not with reference to the whole population — it may be more economical by shortening life, as I have no doubt it does occasionally. But in a case farmed out without treatment, supposing life is prolonged, supposing they get him into a state of fatuity, if his bodily health be good, he may live for thirty or forty years ; while, in the first instance, two or three months' treat- ment might have saved the parish this expense. That system of farming out is contrary to the three acts of parliament. Every treasurer of a parish, or whoever is accessory to such a thing, is liable to a fine of 200/., or three months' imprisonment for each case. 12.142. Then you have reason to believe that the act is not complied with?— It is not complied with ; and all the people who are keeping these houses are liable to a penalty of three months' imprisonment, or a fine of 200Z. for each offence. 12.143. When parishes send patients to the asylum, do they undertake to ftimish cloth- ing ? — They do, or at least their sureties. In general the patients come ill clothed ; and in general it is with very great difficulty that any clothing is to be got after%vards. 12.144. Is it ill supplied by all parishes ? — By every parish I am connected with at all, except the Barony parish, Glasgow. With the town's hospital we have as much trouble 03 with any — they are only nearer, and consequently can be more effectually dunned. 12.145. With regard to what is charged by the asylum for the cost of maintenance, a POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 673 distinction is made betwixt subscribing and non-subscribing parishes ? — The distinction is Exaininations. Is. 6d. a week. The board for subscribing parishes being la. at present, and for non-sub- Glasgow. scribing, 8s. 6d. ,^ ,, , 12.146. Can you not include clothing in the cost of maintenance? — It would be infinitely ([miiy Jiwa. better for us, and better for the patients. I recommended to the directors that the rates for paupers should be made to include clothing, and I apprehend, with the ground we have, that we might take patients from non-subscribing parishes, at 9s. 6d., and from subscribing, at 8s. ; and if there were a larger number the rate might be reduced still further. There is a certain permanent expense with an asylum, which is incurred whether the number be less or greater. Of course, with a greater number, as that permanent expense would be the same, the charge for each mi^ht be reduced. 12.147. Do you think there is a more complete supervision in a large establishment? — In a large establishment what is recpiired is, that one man shall be responsible for the whole —that he shall have a sufficient number of subordinates to enable him to adopt beneficial arrangements and classification, such as can only be carried out where the accommodation is ample. He is able to exercise a much better supervision over a large number where he has a stafi^ than where there is no staff", over a small number. It is only in large establish- ments that you can afford a staff". Here is one proof of the advantage to which I refei', that the large asylums are the best conducted. 12.148. You think all asylums should have a large space of ground connected with them? — Decidedly. Hitherto the space of ground has been much too limited. What I demanded for the new asylum was 100 acres. I got seventy ; I am not satisfied with that, but it will do in the meantime. 12.149. Have you visited the town's hospital. Paisley ? — No. 12.150. You consider it an object in asylums, that the buildings should be cheerful, and the appearance such that no idea of constraint, as in a prison, should be suggested ? — Every thing of that kind should be withdrawn ; they should be large, well-aired, cheerful, and whatever is provided for security shoidd be concealed. It should only be felt when required. It should not be obvious. If you take a'walk out to the new asylum, you will see how all that is secured ; it has the appearance just of a large club-house. There is perfect security at the same time. A great number of contrivances have been had recourse to in asylums, trying to guard against imaginary dangers. Now, the best of all security is a proper sur- veillance ; bolts, chains, &c., are all ineff"ectual compared with that. 12.151. Do you consider that the last act with regard to lunatics requires revision ? — The whole acts require revision. There are three ; they contain several very vague enactments, some even contradictory. Various interpretations are put upon them. At one time, one sheriff" asked two certificates ; another only one. At present some sherifl^s will not receive a certificate from a party out of their own bounds. A sheriff" enacted, that he would not re- ceive the certificates of any who were not members of the faculty of physicians and surgeons of Glasgow. This was in the face of the act, and in consequence of those who are not mem- bers of faculty being only licentiates here having remonstrated, the regulation was with- drawn. Now it is left to two medical men in this place ; two also in Edinburgh ; two in Dumfries ; one only, I believe, in the other sheriflfdoms, where there are asylums. Another provision exists in reference to poor lunatics found at large, and dangerous. The enact- ment is very complicated. Supposing a man is at large, and dangerous, the fiscal presents a petition to the sheriff"; a medical certificate accompanies that, and the sheriff' is bound, even though the friends come forward, to advertise in the newspapers, and this at the expense of the county ; and all the witnesses are summoned, though it is perfectly evident that the man is insane, and the friends are willing to take the expense of his maintenance. This is an unnecessary expense, and hurtful to the feelings of the relatives. There was one case of a gentleman who was wealthy — it was a mere temporary case — he got quite well aftcrwanis on a short treatment, but he and his friends were subjected to expense and exposure. Besides the objection of the very great expense to the county for cases of that kind, when from Gl. to 20^., according to the number of witnesses, may be spent, there arc others to the present laws which show that a general act for Scotland is very much wanted, but it should be drawn after some inquiry. Make an act which will work in all the details, and stick to the letter of it then. It is necessary to infringe the provisions of the present acts in some respects, otherwise the system would not work at all. Before a man can.be put into an asylum, a warrant must be procured from the sheriff" of the county in which the asylum is situated. Before such a warrant can be procured, the sheriff" requires a medical man resident in the county to certify the state of the man ; otherwise the sheriff" will not grant the warrant. To get this certificate the patient must be brought to the county. He may be furious : he is put into a room, perhaps in my own house, tiU a warrant is procured. The act says. If you receive, harbour, or entertain, an insane man, without a warrant from the shcriftj you are liable to a penalty of 200/. It cannot be helped. In transferring a patient from one county to another, it would be much better if the warrant of the sheriff of the county where the patient had been resident were given on the certificate of medical men resident within the bounds of that county, instead of being given by the sheriff" of the county where the lunatic asylum is situated, the former having more access to know the circumstances. The warrant, backed by the sheriff' of the coimty to which the insane person is brought, would be quite sufficient security for the public. At all events, with regard to the insane poor, the less expense at which they can be taken up the better. Both the parishes and the counties are put to considerable expense at present. 12,152. Is there anything more respecting those acts, or the treatment of the insane poor that strikes you ? — First, with regard to incurable patients, they are exceedingly apt to 4 R C74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAI^EN BEFORE THE Examinations. Glasgow. Dr Hutclicsou, (i May IMd. become filthy in their habits unless partieukrly attended to. If they are farmed out, they soon get into that state. They are ill treated. In asylums there are properly constructed beds tor that class. There is a certain class of incurables who may be looked on as parties requiring to be watched over carefully— the better class of imbeciles. They are apt to be a dangerous class. Something may strike them, and they are apt to be made the tools of designing individuals, and often do damage. 1 have known several cases of a tlu-eatening kind left at large ; such cases are sometimes sent to Arran. The managers of the poor try to screw something out of the friends towards their maintenance. One or two such cases have occurred about Govan parish; and one is now before me of an individual in another parish whose wages amount to 15s. a week. He hae a wife who has been insane for several years. He has had her iu an asylum at times for several years, but was never able to keep her long. The charge is 8s. 6d. for non-subscribers. He had several children, and he struggled on. Hadthe case remained sufficiently long at fii-st it would have been cured, I have no doubt. It is now incurable. He had no aid from the parish ; he asked some of the directors to interfere. They cannot, without the authority of the whole body ; and they don't think it a case in which they ought to interfere, saying that the parish would do so. There are several cases of the same kind. There are several depots iov the insane connected with this place — one at Port-Dundas, one at Bridgegate, and some in the county. I have never been able to visit them. I mentioned a case to the sheriff some time ago, and he was to make inquiry. 12.153. In the returns in the General Assembly's report, of the number of lunatics through Scotland, are the numbers included of those who are boarded out, or do the returns relate to those only who are in lunatic asylums ? — In all the parishes with which I am acquainted, the number returned is that of cases confined in lunatic asylums. There is no account of those who are in the poorhouse, or boai'ded out. I know that is the case with regard to Ayr, and the Barony parish. In Paisley, they include, I fancy, those who are in their hospital ; but I know, in general, it is only those who are in lunatic asylums that are given. 12.154. (^Mr Camphell.) — How is it in the city of Glasgow? — The city of Glasgow is marked here as making no retm-n ; but there is a note, in wliich it is stated, that " the ave- rage hospital are — male idiots, 19 ; female idiots, 16. Deranged or fatuous — males, 28 ; females, 60 : total, 123. Besides, 12 was received too late for insertion in the column." — [Assembly's Report, p. 44.] 12.155. Do you know whether that includes not only those in the lunatic asylum, but those in their own hospital, and boarded out ? — I cannot conceive that this can be the whole : it may include those in the town's hospital, and those in the asylum, but not those boarded out. 12.156. {Mr Twisleton.) — Can you state what is the present accommodation for lunatics in Scotland ? — There are seven asylums in Scotland, with accommodation in Edinburgh for 250 ; Glasgow, 450; Perth, 180; Dumfries, 150 in round numbers; Montrose, 100; Aberdeen, 200 ; Dimdee, 220. 12.157. For how many more do you think accommodation ought to be provided with re- ference to paupers ? — I should think about 900 more would do. It would oe folly equal for all the cases in the country. 12.158. At what would you estimate the expense of accommodation for 100 lunatics? — Exclusive of land, the building itself woidd cost 3000/.,— from 2700/. to 3000/. 12.159. Is that estimate founded on the expense of building the lunatic hospital here ? — Yes. 12.160. For how many is that calculated? — The expense of accommodation for 350 is 42,000/., but a large portion is for the higher ranks, and a large proportion of the expense is thrown upon that. At present, 42,000/. includes both houses ; but in making the calcula- tion, I am taking for the paupers alone. One thing that renders it more easy to provide accommodation is, that in many cases you can make use of dormitories ; and accoi-ding to their state, place from 4 to 20 patients in a dormitory. It saves a great deal in the intei-nal fornishings, i, 12.161. WoiJd that suppose the building to be as airy and as well ventilated as the asylum near Glasgow ? — Yes ; that will not afford oiMiament, but a plain building. 12.162. And how many additional lunatic asylums for paupers would you contemplate — two ? — It would be better to adopt the seven asylums already in existence, and by making sonje additions to them, to supply the accommodation necessary for the poor. It would be moic cheaply done in that way. You would save additional staffs of raanagei-s, and so on. 12.163. (Mr Robertson.) — Are you aware whether there is a great want of information on the part of the public with regard to the benefits resulting from well conducted lunatic asylums ? — Most decidedly, there is very great ignorance on the subject still. 12.164. Are you aware whether there are great jirejudices on the part of the lower classes against committing their relatives to such institutions? — In certain parts of the country there are, — not in this neighbourhood. Sometimes there are prejudices where there is diffi- culty in procming the means, and in most parishes the friends go through a great deal of work before getting a patient on the roll. Perhaps they have to subscribe Is. or Is. 6d. a week, and as this intrenches on their own comforts, it is calculated to operate against their sending the cases, 12.165. But with regard to the prejudice that exists, how would it most effectually be met ? — You never would meet a j^rejudice by giving way to it. You should put it do\vn. You should show what an asylum really is, — show that it is not what such places were twenty or thirty years ago. When you give in to prejudice of any kmd, you just encourage it and keep it up. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 675 12.166. Would not such prejudices be met by the diffusion of cheap information by those who are able to give such information ? — Most decidedly ; and we have tried to do it in the cheapest of all ways, by the gratuitous distribution of the annual report far and wide ; and Messrs Chambers' have done the game, so far as lay in their power, by various extracts. The newspapers have done the same also, adding something in their way. You hear every now and then of what is done in Hanwell, Dumfries, and other places ; but the circulation of reports in the shape of tracts would be a useful expedient, and one which could be canied into effect at very little expense. 12.167. (Mr Campbell.) — Do you know from what parishea people are sent to Arran? — Not exactly. Examinations. Glasgow. ])r Hutcheson. C May ItW.'J. Andrew Millar, Esq., Writer, clerk to the Heritors of Abbey Parish, Paisley, Examined : — Mr A. Millar. 12,168. am. 12,169. 12,170. 12,171. (Mr Campbell.)- You are clerk to the heritors of the Abbey parish, Paisley ?- -On means and substance, — the criterion You attend their meetings in that capacity ? — I do. The funds for the poor are raised by assessment ? — They are raised by assessment. Is the assessment laid on in such a manner as to give satisfaction ? So far aa regards the tenant's half, the apportionment has given a good deal of dissatisfaction. The other half is on real rent. 12.172. The tenant's is on means and substance ?- being income. 12.173. And with regard to that part there is an objection taken? — There are objections, and it is really a difficult matter to obviate these objections. 12.174. Be kind enough to state what occurs to you on that subject? — A number of people consider the present mode arbitrary and inquisitorial, and they think the criterion ought to be rent, as in the case of heritors. In a parish where the ground is chiefly covered with buildings, or in country districts, tliis rule may be advantageously adopted, but in parishes like the Abbey, partly town and partly landward, there would be great inequality. A farm tenant, for instance, who pays 500^. of rent would be assessed at ten times the amount of the most wealthy merchant. At the same time, the other plan creates great dissatisfaction among the mercantile classes. Perhaps some remedy of this kind miglit be adopted. Let commissioners adjust the proportion which should fall on the landward part of the parish, and the proportion which should fall on the town, and let the amount of each be allocated on rental. If the present mode, however, were continued, I should suggest that a board of appeal, composed of a limited number of the chief heritors, should take charge of this allocation, and should hnve powers similar to those of the general commissioners under the income-tax act, conducting their proceedings with like secrecy. This would prevent many objections that are at present made, but not the whole. 12.175. What are the other objections to which you allude? — Chiefly that the inquiry must be inquisitorial. But the other mode is not even free of objection. The amount to a very wealthy person depending upon rental, does not fall in the same ratio as the amount on a tradesman, even with a smaller rent. But I think that either plan would meet the principal objection that is made. Supposing commissioners to be selected to adjust the proportions between landward and town, I would understand that each would be allocated upon rental. 12.176. Do you find any other objections you would wish to state to the Commissioners with regard to the administration of the poor funds in the Abbey parish ? — I have really none with regard to the administration of the funds. I think they are exceedingly well conducted by the overseers ; and I don't think a better system could be adopted. Perhaps, however, there would be no harm if some scale of rates, applicable to different conditions of life, were introduced, fixing a sum annually as the minimum allowance. This might be advantageous in many cases. 12.177. You mean the sum paid as minimum allowance to the paupers? — I do; fora pauper who has no other source than can be relied on. But we have, comparatively, very few paupers who have not some source of income independently of their allowances. 12.178. And you would propose that a minimum allowance should be fixed, and that it ehould be competent for the administrators to add to that, according to the circumstances in each individual case ? — Precisely. It would obviate the objection that they don't receive enough for actual maintenance. That cannot be alleged against the Abbey parish ; for the sums there given, I am prepared to show, are above the smns expended by persons who have means of tlieir o^vn sufficient for their support. 12.179. Then the sums given in the Abbey parish are equal to the sums given to labourers earning their own livelihood ? — Where the pauper has nothing to depend upon but what he receives from the parish, the amount Is equal to what is expended by female labourers. 12.180. What is the allowance to a person who has no resource besides ? — To a full grown person on the roll, requiring no extraordinary comforts, 3s. per week is frequently given. ^ 12.181. And, at the present rate of provisions, can a single individual In the Abbey parish live equally well with an ordinary labourer, with a wife and three or four children ? — My attention has been directed to the cases of Individuals unencumbered with children ; and, although it is difficult to ascertain satisfactorily the precise amount expended by such persons, I think I have succeeded in this. We have several bleachfields in the parish, in which almost all the workers are girls from the Highlands, who have never been accustomed I 67G MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Examiuatiuns. to anything but the actual necessaries of life. They are from 18 to 30 years of age. The Glasgow. greater part of them procui'c their entire living from one quarter, and a particular account of Mr A Jlillar *^'® same is kept. Each girl purchases her own provisions, and has them cooked distinct t; M»v 1U43." from her companions. Now I have made mquiry at two of the principal fields, and have ascertained the i-ate of expense at which these gu-ls have lived for several years prior to this time. 12.182. Woidd you inform us what was the rate of their expenses for living ? — On the prin- cipal field, where about 300 women were employed, taking an average of six weeks, it was rather under lis. for the six weeks, that being, however, exclusive of house-room and fire: and, with regard to the. other field, I have in my hands the written answer of the manager, that the expense is about 10s. 6d. in his field, and that not for a particular season of the year, hut over the whole of sevei'al years ; and I have satisfied myself that tliis IDs. 6d. includes the whole expense of living, exclusive of house-room and tire. 12.183. For six weeks ? — For six weeks ; and this gentleman has explained the nature of the food they live upon. 12.184. And what do they live upon? — In the morning they take potatoes to breakfast, with buttermilk or fish ; for dinner the same ; for supper, porridge and buttennilk. They take no tea except on pay-day, once in the six weeks : once then, or in the event of a friend coming to visit them. They are very hcidthy. The doctor who has attended them states that they are healthier than the Paisley girls generally arc. He has had only two cases of typhus fever in two years, and only one death, which was caused by small-pox. Almost all of them are Iligldand girls ; two are Irish, and they live on the same sum. 12.185. What is the expense upon an average, — tliey live on lis. for the six weeks? — He says 10s. 6d., or Is. 9d. jjcr week. In the other field, which is larger, I am mformed some of the girls live on 10s. Their wages are from 6s. to Gs. tid. or 7s. per week. 12.186. {Mr Twisleton.) — Is the Is. 9d. deducted from the 7s.? — No ; the mode they adopt is this : — In all the fields, which are at a distance from the town, there are stores kept, not by the masters, but by others ; most of the girls keep pass-books, in which every thing Ls entered ; and, at the end of the six weeks, the parties 2>ay the store out of the wages they have received. 12.187. {Mr Cainphell.) — Are your allowances to all indigent persons in proportion to the sum you mentioned, as paid to a single man unable to do anything for himself? — The allow- ances are not equalized. There is great difficidty in acting generally upon a system of equa- lization, for almost all the paupers have something more or less from other sources ; and the allowance must depend greatly upon this. A widow may have children, some of whom may be able to earn a little ; and every cu-cumstance of that kuid has to be taken into considera- tion. I allude to cases which are free from specialties. 12.188. But supposing an able-bodied woman with a young child nursing, and w-ith seve- ral children besides, all mider ten, — would you give her an allowance which would be just as efficient for that family as tlie allowance given in the other case ? — I understand that in cases where the mother is totally dependent on the parish, provision is also made for the children. 12.189. And tiie allowance made to a widow and children would enable them to live with equal comfort with the girls in the printfield that you alluded to ? — That is the imderstand- ing of the heritors of the parish. Their wish is, — that the pau2)ers should be fairly and proj»erly maintained. 12.190. Could you state what, in fact, is the allowance wliich the overseers do give to a widow and children, such as you have now described ? — I cannot. 12.191. But it is the wish of the heritors that such should be put on a footing equally good with the girls that .earn their livelihood by their own work ? — It is. 12.192. They would wish the overseers to be guided by such a rule ? — They v\ould. 12.193. {Mr Twisleton.') — What would a single man have to pay for rent? — I understand that paupers in looking for lodgings can get them for 6d. a week. 12.194. Supposing a single man with the allowance you mentioned of Ss,, lived at the same rate as the girls at the printfields, — there would be 28. 3d. for food and lodging ? — * Yes ; 28. 3d. for food and lodging. But perhaps these girls are better attended to as regards fire and lodging, and they have soap free of expense. 12.195. So there is 9d. a week over for soap and dress, &c. ? — Yes ; but the sum we give is only intended to be sufficient for maintenance, exclusive of dress. 12.196. {Mr Campbell.) — Are you aware how lunatics are provided for in the Abbey f)arisii, Paisley ? — I am. W^e have a considerable number, — not less than thuty-seven. We lave no place of oiu* own for keeping persons of this description, but there is an hospital be- longing to the burgh, and they are willing to take in such persons from other parishes. We put some into the hospital who require attention ; others who can go abroad without danger, Ave send to a healthy situation, — chiefly to the island of Arran, where they are boarded. 12.197. Can you inform us how many are boarded at present in the town's hospital. Paisley ? — I tlunk tliirteen persons are in the town's hospital, belonging to the parish, all, or chiefly lunatics. 12.198. Can you infonn us what is the number of lunatics, idiots, and fatuous persons boarded out in Arran ? — Nine in AiTan. 12.199. And where are the remainder ? — There appears to be one in Dunblane, and one in Mauchline. 12.200. Does that make up the sum ? — That makes up only twenty-four, but I suppose some arc witiiin the bounds of the parish, stopping with their parents or other relations. Those 1 have mentioned are regidarly boarded out. 12.201. Do you know the names of any persons with whom they live in Arran ? — ^No ; POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 677 but I will procure for you a note of them. They are in various parte of the island. We have, however, more than lunatics there. We find other paupers can be there better and more economically ke])t. 12.202. Then lunatics are in certain cases boarded out? — They are in farm houses. They are sometimes employed In herding, it may be, but the farmers are paid a sufficient board independent of this. 12.203. Have you any observations to offer with regard to the poor generally ? — Suppos- ing a statute were passed, the first thing that occurs to me would regard the constitution of the meetings. In landward parishes tlic heritors' half of tiie assessment is generally allocated on real rent. Every feuar there appears as an heritor, and has a vote, while the largest heritor has no more than a single vote. Proxies from feuars are recognized, and on some occasions one may come with 100 of these in his pocket, and thus counterbalance the votes of those who have a much greater stake. It would be advisable to counteract this undue influence. With regard to the Abbey parish, I have generally prevailed on heritors not to avail tliem- selves of this privilege, but some have threatened to act upon it. 12.204. You would suggest that proxies should be abolished ? — It would be unfair where proprietors, resident perhaps at a distance, are not able to attend, to prevent their factors from taking part in the proceedings. I merely wish to counteract the undue influence usually exercised. I would propose that the right of voting should be given to heritors hold- ing a prescribed rental, or a certain interest in the parish. But if that were considered an unpopular arrangement, then the rate-payers might constitute a meeting, the right being confined to those who are assessed on a given rental, or pay some annual assessment on the amount of at least 50/. ; those above 50/., and under 100/., to have one vote ; above 100/.,- and under 300/., two votes ; above 300/., and under 500/., three votes ; above 500/., and under 700/., fovir votes ; above 700/., and under 1000/., five votes ; above 1000/., and under 1500/., six votes; above 1500/., and under 2000/., seven votes; above 2000/., and under 3000/., eight votes ; above 3000/., and under 4000/., nine votes ; 4000/. and upwards, ten votes ; no one to have a vote under 50/., and no mandatory to represent above ten votes. I consider, too, the right of judging paupers' claims shoidd not rest, as at present, with a popidar meeting of the heritors and session, but with overseers of each parish, an appeal being competent to a small board in each parish, whose decision should be final. I stated before, that a minimum scale could be adopted for dlfl^erent classes ; the scale might be reviewable by the sheriff, but It should not be competent to him to determine whether a person fell under one description in the scale or not. Next, I have all along thought that we ought to endeavour to prevent an assessment being Imposed in parishes if possible ; but I have now rather changed my opinion. There ought, I think, to be a compulsory assessment for the poor in all parishes. The absence of this provision in certain parishes, I conceive, has a tendency to prevent the location of working classes, and to send them to large towns where such a provision exists. In parishes near towns, particularly, there is a great necessity for such a compulsory provision. 12.205. Do you think in those parishes near great towTis, where there is not a compulsory provision, the poor are not provided for ? — -I think they are not so weU provided for as they are where there is a provision. 12.206. Do you think, setting aside the Abbey parish, the poor in Paisley are better provided for, or worse, than the poor in Inchlnnan ? — I don't think there Is any town where the poor are worse treated than in Paisley. 12.207. Then there is no inducement to come to the to^^ii of Paisley ? — No, but people come to our parish on account of our allowances. 12.208. Have you known cases ? — The overseers and heritors have mentioned cases as coming under their notice. 12.209. The allowances are comparatively high In the Abbey parish to what they are In other places in Scotland ? — They are very high in comparison with the town of Paisley. 12.210. And the other parishes in the neighbom'hood ?— And the other parishes in the neighbourhood. 12.211. AVould you propose an alteration of the law of settlement? — I should think there would be great propriety in making It seven years Instead of three. Then In royal burghs the whole assessment is Imposed upon the means of the Inhabitants generally. Now, In fairness. It should be the same as In landward parishes. One half should be upon the heritors, and the other half upon the tenants and possessors. 12.212. Upon means and substance? — Upon means and substance, but In towns you might have perfectly well the means and substance represented by rent. In the Abbey parish I have found a number of people who think that a deduction ought to be given to heritors from their share of the assessment, proportionable to their heritable debts. 12.213. Pei'sons assessed In the Abbey parish propose, that where property Is burdened by debt, a deduction should be made from the gross amount, corresponding to the amount of the debt upon which they pay interest ? — They think that it should be in this way, or that the creditor should make a corresponding deduction. Some of the larger only have made this proposition, — others are completely against It. It would be fair enough if the assess- ment were alike in each parish ; but if a lender lives in a wealthy parish, where the rate may be very small, whUe the borrower resides In a place like the Abbey parish, where the rates tare high, the consequence would be that the money would be called up. 12,214. It Is proposed by some that heritors, on account of such debts, should be entitled to a deduction, not from the sum assessed, but that they shoidd be entitled to retain from the i creditor a proportion of the Interest due to him. In proportion to what the property, so far as the bond extends over it. Is assessable for the poor of the jjarlsh ? — Precisely so. With i Examinations. Glasgow. Mr A. Millar. G May 1843. 678 MTNTJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, the smaller heritors it would not work well. Others again contend that there should be an Glasgow. sdtei-ation in the boundaries of parislies. ,, . ,,.,, 12,215. Do you think it expedient to unite a number of parishes in the neighbourhood of Mr A. Jlillar. rj-iri f t i • • • r i ht iii i 6 May 1843. "aisley tor the purposes oi the admmistratiou tor the poor r — It would be a great boon to the Abbey, but would be unjust towards other parishes in which there is no assessment. A person may have purchased property in a parish where there is no assessment, or where the burden is comparatively light, and he makes his price accordingly. It would be unfair, therefore, to bring him into a situation where he would be subject to a high rate of assess- ment. Otherwise, so far as regards the Abbey parish, I can see no objection to a junction with country parishes, it would reduce the rates. 12,216. Had you any connexion with the committee appointed in Paisley for giving relief to the unemployed operatives ?— I had none. From my connexion with the Abbey parish, I purposely kept away, knowing that an attempt was making to oblige each parish to provide for these people. , 12,217. Do you think a legal provision should be given to able-bodied men when out of work ? — I am not so sure of the expediency of this. 1 think it would be dangerous to hold out that an able-bodied person as a matter of course was entitled to be provided with work when out of it ; but when a periodical return comes of great depression, and masses of people cannot procure work, then the case is rather different. To meet such emergencies, I think a power shoidd be vested in some quarter of raising contributions for able-bodied persons out of employment and their dependants. But it ought oidy to be vested in the majority in value of that class who are themselves to bear the burden, and who have an inte- rest consequently adverse to its imposition. It may perhaps be thought that a power so vested woiild be rarely exercised. I am of a different opinion. The public voice and the cause of suffering humanity would, I think, be sufficient to induce the majority to do their duty, and thus enforce the performance of it upon the majority. 12.218. Then you woidd put it in the power of the majority of rate-payers, in a certain district as a whole, to assess for the maintenance of able-bodied men in periods of unusual distress, such as have lately occurred ? — If it were once dotermined that each parish must attend to its own unemployed, then I think the class in whom the proposed power should be vested ought to be the whole rate-payers, at a meeting convened for the purpose. 12.219. AVould you make a distinction with regard to the amount of i-ental held by those rate-payers, as you would propose for the poor fund ? — I would, I think they ought to be represented in the same manner, 12.220. And what restriction would you place on the admission of the able-bodied to the benefits of this provision, with the view of preventing the relief fi'om being abused ? — I con- ceive the bmxlen ought not to fall upon parishes at all. It is rather, I thiiik, a matter for the consideration of the state than for a locality. But if each locality were held bound to attend to it, then it ought to be some extended disti'ict — it would never do to j)ut It on a single parish. 12.221. Would you propose to extend it to a county : or how fiir would you extend the district on which you woidd lay the assessment? — So far ixs regards the Abbey parish, comprising the Newtown of Paisley, and several populous villages, I conceive the city of Glasgow to be as much interested in the mauufaoturcs of Paisley as the landed gentlemen In the Abbey, whose lands are situated at two miles' distance from the town ; and I can see no objection in piinciple to the two counties being united. 12.222. And supposing relief were given either by counties or by a certain number of parishes, or by one parish, to able-bodied men, under what conditions would you give it — gratuitously or for work returned ? — -For work retiuned. 12.223. Do you think it woidd be objectionable to give relief without work returned ? — I think it would. In the Abbey parish we have been accustomed to insist on this. On looking at the records of the parish I find that the first case when relief was attempted waa in 1819. Tlien the parish came forward, and a considerable sum was raised. lA'hen first they interfered, the heritors individually became bound for specific sums : then they patron- ised a subscription, and 1000?. was raised, but nothing was given except for work in return. 12.224. The year 1819 was one of great distress ? — It was, and that distress continued for a long period. 12.225. Are you acquainted with the sources from whence the manufacturing population of Paisley in general derive their work ? — Most of our population are handloom weavers. 12.226. And do they get work from manufacturers in the town, or from other places ? — Mostly from manufacturers in the town, but these manufactui-ers are in many instances just the agents of Glasgow houses. There ai-e different commission agents who give orders to a large extent to manufacturers, not having capital of their own, and who carry on the works for those agents. 12.227. Then is a great proportion of the Paisley capital Glasgow capital ? — It Is. In fact a gi-eat portion of the business in Paisley is earned on without capital. We have com- paratively few manufacturci's who have capital sufficient to justify them In carrying on the trade they do. It Is all on credit. They purchase yarn on credit ; their dyer's account is on credit. They have nothing, in short, to provide for but paying the weaving ; and long before their credit on the yarns and dyer's charges Is expired their goods are in the hands of the agents — and of these goods they have received two-thmls of the value by way of advance. 12.228. Is there any direct employment given to weavers In Paisley by manufacturers m Glasgow ? — There Is. 12.229. Is It the same fabrics that are worked by the Paisley manufacturers ? — I am not euflSciently acquainted with the subject to answer this question. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 679 Mr Millar, in the course of his examination, having refeiTcd to some written memorandums taken down by him before hand, was requested to give them in. The following excerpts were taken : — Assessrmnt. — Commenced in 1786. At first 152Z. 18s. 6d. No record from that date to 1791, when 413/. assessed. In 1792, 430Z. ; in 1795, 660/., besides 100/. to pay debt. In 1798, 750/.; 1800, 950/.; 1801, 1401/. 13s. 6d. ; 1802, 1000/.; 1803, 757/.; 1804, 1125/.; 1805, 1201/. 10s.; 1806, 1000/.; 1807, 1000/.; 1808, 1500/.; 1809, 1500/.; 1810, 1600/.; 1811, 1500/.; 1812, 2000/.; 1813, 2000/.; 1814, 1400/.; 1815, 1000/.; 1816, 1200/.; 1817, 1500/.; 1818, 1500/.; 1819, 1600/.; 1820, 1900/.; 1821,2100/.; 1822, 2000/., besides 1200/. for debt, in all 3200/.; 1823, 1300/.; 1824, 1400/.; 1825, 1600/.; 1826, 2600/.; 1827, 2200/.; 1828, 3000/.; 1829, 3000/.; 1830, 2300/.; 1831, including Johnstone, 2500/. ; 1832, 3000/. ; 1833, 3500/. ; 1834,2500/.; 1835, 2500/.; 1836,2500/.; 1837, 3500/. ; 1838, 4500/., besides 1500/. for debt, in all, 6000/. ; 1839, 4800/. ; 1840, 4000/. ; 1841, for debt, 997/. 4s. 3d., and for poor 4350/. ; in 1842, 6000/., but a debt of fully 2000/. then owing. Compact with Johnstone, a populous village in the parish, for support- ing its own poor, discontinued in August 1830. Appeals and unrecovered assessments will amount to an eighth of the sum imposed. Expenditure on Poor- Expenditure on Poor- 1809, £1570 At June 1821, £2070 8 3 1810, 1672 3 3 ... 1822, 1852 2 3i 1811, 1774 10 10 1823, 1551 3 10* 1812, 1925 3 1 1824, Not given. 1813, 1724 15 5 1825, 1625 12 7 1814, 1498 10 10 1826, Not given. 1815, 1312 16 6 1827, 2289 7 1816, 1330 1 1830, 3296 18 6^ 1817, 1421 4 1831, ' 2579 6 8 1818, 1545 19 2 1838, 4334 11 11 1819, 1534 10 10 1840, 5362 2 2^ 1820, 1795 17 2i 1841, 4446 8 7i 1842, 4409 13 7 Papulation. — The parish has increased very much since the assessment was first imposed. In 1755 the population was only ... ... ... ... 2509 Contrast in burgh, 13,800, in ... 1791-7, In Abbey parish ... 10,792 Do. 17,026, ... 1801, ... ... ... 14,146 Do. 19,913, ... 1811, ... ... ... 16,785 Do. 32,582, ... 1841, ... ... ... 28,381 Population of the Abbey within the Parliamentary bounds of Paisley, exclusive of a por- tion added to two quoad sacra parishes is now 14,450 In the Burgh, exclusive of Abbey ... 32,582 Valuation, Scots, of Abbey parish ... ... ... £10,741 13 4 Do. of Paisley, ... ... ... ... 1,077 6 8 Rental of Abbey in 1815, ... ... ... ... 44,600 14 8 Do. of Town, exclusive of Abbey, ... ' ... ... 31,521 6 Apportionment of Assessment. — Till 1802, the whole assessment was allocated on heritors, householders, and tenants, regulating each by his property in the parish, his trade, his means and substance, having regard to eveiy circumstance, that might render the contribu- tions as equitable as possible. 1802. — In 1802, by advice of counsel, this plan altered, and the one half allocated on those heritors who had property in the parish, paying land-tax, according to their valued rent; the other half on the tenants and householders, in proportion to their means and substance, factories and commercial establishments, being assessed according to their supposed profits. This continued till 1812, when it was resolved that the assessment then imposed, and all futm-e assessments, in " so far as they affect the heritors of lands and houses, be levied in proportion to their respective real rents, the one half to be paid by the heritors, the other lialf by the tenants." Since then the practice is to direct that the one half shall be allocated upon the heritors according to their real rents, and the other by the assessors and overseers, upon the tenants and possessors according to their means and substance. The mode of striking the tenant's half was always considered to be arbitrary and objectionable. 1823. — In 1823 it was carried at a meeting that rent should form the basis of estimating a tenant's means. The opinion of counsel agreed to be taken, Whether it would be legal to assess upon the actual rent, or whether they might assume a farmer's income at a half or a fourth of his real, and the other possessors at their actual rent : or to take the half of a far- mer's rent as the representative of liis means, and six times the amount of the house rents as the representative of the other occupiers ? Counsel considered that to assess all kinds of possessors alike upon the amount of Paisley has lately gone through, or such times as Paisley went through in 1826 and 1837 (which, however, did not amount in duration to above six or seven months, whereas the distress now has lasted two years), I should think a fund to subsist able-bodied labourers on such emergencies, drawn from an assessment on the pro- perty of the town, would be equivalent to an act of confiscation. The thing is utterly im- practicable ; and as all parts of the country reap a general benefit from the trade and com- merce of the country, it should be nationalized entirely, or to a certain extent, by a union of counties. And in cases of that kind it would then meet them very easily indeed. Take our own county of Renfrew — the assessable rental of Renfrew is 320,000/. The whole sum raised for carrying the people over this tremendous crisis has amounted to 50,000/. ; and that might have been collected in the county by an assessment of Is. 6d. per pound on the assessable property of the county only for two years. 12.254. In whom would you place the power of laying on such assessment? — That would require very serious consideration. I should not like to commit myself in saying how it should be done ; though I have no hesitation in saying, that a very satisfactory machinery POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 685 for the purpose might be formed by a united representation of the various interests of town and country. 12.255. And would you put the management under the charge of such a body as we be- fore referred to, consisting of elders and deacons ? — I should not like to see elders and deacons the only managers. I should like to see such a body constructed as would afford a representation of those who have a permanent stake in town and country. I should like to see the benevolence of the eldership and deaconship regulated by the more enlarged expe- rience and counsels of those who have a deep concern in the property of town and country. I should not think it was safe to leave so very important a matter to those who are liable to be acted on by the impulses of mere benevolence ; and as little likely would it be that the management would be carried on in an efficient way, if there were not an infusion of such benevolence, and the whole were under the cold withering influence of a mere regard to personal interests. 12.256. Would you give relief with work or without work ? — I should always prefer giving work where work could bo obtained. 12.257. Would you give work as has hitherto been done in this country, or in workhouses as in England ? — I should prefer giving work out of workhouses, much rather than give it in them, so far as that could be done, with regard to able-bodied labourers ; from this con- sideration, that notwithstanding all the breaking-down influences which have been in opera- tion, with reference to the working classes, and these have been very great and very heavy, during the last twelve years especially, — yet, so far as my experience goes (with a few paltry exceptions, when viewed in relation to the general mass), I look upon their tone and feeling, and character — after all that the people have gone through — as all but unbroken ; and there are very few people in our population who would not rather all but starve, rather than go into a workhouse, and very few would receive aliment or support of any kind in a, workhouse. There are exceptions, but they form a very small per centage of the general population. 12.258. Relief in a workhouse is relief which a large proportion of the population will not accept? — That is my impression. It is necessary to have a test of some kind ; and it is of consequence that for persons who are broken down in character, the test should be severe, and that those who have the management of the fund, should have power to apply a severe test. But I don't think a test so severe would generally be found needed, provided work of any kind can be got. 12.259. And it is only for such as are of broken down character that such a test would be needed ? — That is my strong conviction. 12.260. {Mr Twideton.) — In a period of such great depression of trade, would it not be impracticable — would not the workhouse accommodation be altogether inadequate ? — Alto- gether inadequate. 12.261. And are you aware that in depressions of trade in England, it is never attempted to give relief in the workhouse ? — I was not aware. 12.262. You mentioned when you spoke of members of the Established Church and dis- senters, that you never found any cases of jealousy with regard to the administration of relief in the towns, but that such had occurred in country parishes ? — Yes. 12.263. Have you known many of those? — I have known them in various localities. 12.264. What localities? — I should not like exactly to designate particular parishes. 12.265. Were they in remote parts of the country? — Not so. I lived nine years in Fife- shire as a minister, and I found those jealousies manifested to a considerable extent — occa- sionally in the parish where I was minister, in Auchtermuchty. Not that it needed fre- quently to be tried. It happened that the church of which I was pastor there, consisted of 400 members — a large proportion of them wealthy, — besides embracing people of all the various ranks in life, and I don't think we ever had above three or four paupers at the time when I was minister of that church. Yet, when parties who happened to have had a nominal connexion with our congregation, or who had fallen out of their connexion, or something of that kind, had applied for aid, they were frequently repulsed in an ungracious way, which created a great deal of talk often in the parish. It so happened that we did not need to care much about it. There was a society formed during my incumbency there, for the relief of the poor generally, to which my own congregation contributed a very large proportion. I speak of that as a matter of recollection, and I have heard of the same thing as occurring in other parishes. It did not bear upon us. Our circumstances as a congrega- tion would have made it a very trifling circumstance to have supported our poor, had they been three times, or ten times, as numerous. We were sending perhaps 30/. or 40Z. a year, to be applied for various benevolent purposes. It was no great hardship, therefore, so far as we were concerned ; only people choose sometimes to stand up for their rights. 12.266. But you don't think there is such a jealousy as would prevent the two parties from being joined in the management? — Not at all. If the management were approaching anything to a liberal management, it could be effected with the greatest ease, and it would be attended with a very happy effect. 12.267. But is there such a jealousy existing as would lead you to wish for an alteration in rural parishes ? — 1 believe there is such a feeling through many rural parishes — well or ill-founded I could not say. I have so often heard of it that I do not think it altogether groundless. 12,2()8. But is there such a strong feeling as would lead you to desire that the present constitution of the administration in rural parishes should be altered ? — Why, the con- stitution in rural parishes does admit to a very great extent of the management of parties without reference to denominational distinction. The heritors as a body inthegreaternumber Examinations. Glasgow. Rev. A. Baird. C May 1843. 686 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniinations. of parishes — of those rural parishes I am acquainted with — is- a general body; and in the GtAsoow. neighbourhood to which I alluded, a large proportion of the heritorship consisted of dissen- Bev A Baird *^^^' ^ have known parishes where the great body of the heritors consisted of parties con- c May l!U3. nected with the secession church. I2,2G9. Was that an assessed parish ? — I think not. 12.270. Do you know whether generally the heritors interfere in the unassessed parishes 1 — I should think they always do. I should think the minister and session will not pro- ceed to manage the poor, without calling in the heritors. I never attended an heritor''s meeting. Some of my brethren of other denominations did attend. I was not summoned, and I had no particular desire to intermeddle with what I was not called on particularly to intermeddle with. I was satisfied that what was generally given to the poor was more fitted to insult their poverty than to relieve it ; and in some parishes where there were few paupers, and the parishes could have relieved them with the utmost ease, the collections at the parish church doors were most miserable, showing a want of interest in the matter at all ; and in a parish where there were only perhaps ten or twelve paupers, the poor crea- tures were left with lOd. or 6d. per week, or probably less. 12.271. Did you not generally find that allowance supplemented by the kindness of rela- tions ? — Yes ; by the kindness of relations and general benevolence. But still the system had a tendency to reduce people who had given the labour of all their lifetime to that parish, and make them appear very much in the character of beggars ; or if they were high- minded people they would suffer a great deal before allowing their wants to be known. I have known some of the collections at the church doors in those parishes which did not amount to Is. a day. The collections at our parochial church during my incumbency did not amount to 2s. Gd. each Sabbath. I happened to know that from a proposal which was made to throw all the collections at the doors of the different churches in the pafish into a common fund ; and on inquiry we found that the sums raised were so disproportioned, that we never could dream of that — my own congregation collecting never less perhaps than 22s. each day. We never could tolerate the thing for a moment. 12.272. It is the opinion of some that the insignificance of allowances has a good moral effect by encouraging kindly feelings among the poor ? — 1 doubt that exceedingly. I think the allowances ought to be larger ; and there would still be plenty of room for the indul- gence of kindly feelings. The present allowances are so very small that the condition of the parties is not perceptibly improved ; and these poor old people often live to see the sun of prosperity go down with their benefactors, and the sphere of their relationship or acquaintance removed. They are often left in deplorable circumstances ; and I look for- ward to the state of society in our town with alarm — with horror. Till this crisis came upon us, society was in a condition to move on, though with difficulty, yet under the power- ful impulse of former principles ; they were struggling with adversity, manfully and success- fully, — insomuch that, when this crisis approached, the greater part of our well-doing trades- men were connected with friendly societies for supporting them in distress, in addition to funds for funerals, giving a portion to the vvidov*r, and so on. The greater part of these societies are broken up — partly I acknowledge because the principle on which they were constructed was found to be defective — and many of those poor people have been deprived of the benefit after having paid their contributions for many years. But those which were in existence when the crisis began, have gone to the wall, chiefly that the people might get at the funds and divide them for the relief of their immediate necessities. I have known so much as 71. gotten to help the depositor through a crisis. Now there are only two of those societies in existence. What is to be done with these people in times of dis- tress is a problem yet unsolved. 12.273. There were some of them who had funds in the savings' banks? — I believe there were. It was connected with the corporation and river trust. There were some who had money there, though I am not aware to what extent. That is not likely to have brought • any of them down. The thing is likely to turn out pretty well, if well managed. 12.274. You still think that the rural administration should be under the heritors and kirk-session ? — Not exclusively. There ought to be with the body of the heritors, the con- junction of the eldership of any other religious bodies existing there. Without that the system won't work now. 12.275. And you think that would meet the case ? — I have no doubt it would, and they would go on well. The eldership in that neighbourhood to which I referred has been revived for a considerable number of years back ; but in a large proportion of parishes there were no elders. In sixteen parishes only four had elders at all. The one I belonged to had only one. In many of them there were no elders, neither had there been any withia the memory of man. 12,27(). And if there were a still larger secession from the Church of Scotland, you would think it still necessary to have the dissenting bodies represented? — Represented in some way — that is, not merely as a general requisite for giving satisfaction, but as of very great importance with reference to the funds, for the purpose of leading all parties to take an interest and devise liberal things on the subject : so that, by voluntary efforts, as much might be done as possible to prevent a legal assessment, which is always to be deprecated when it can be avoided ; or at least, to have it kept as low as possible with a due regard to the interests of the poor. I fear that keeping off an assessment, or keeping it low, has been the great object of the managers for the poor. 12,277. With regard to the provision you propose with regard to the able-bodied, what would be its effects on the provident habits of the able-bodied ? — The eflect would be advan- tageous. I have of late seen so much of the evil which arises from allowing people to fall POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 687 into circumstances where they look, as it were, starvation — extreme misery — in the face, Examinations, having no legal right of any kind to fall back upon, — I have seen it so frequently unnerving Glasoow. the minds of those people ; driving them to courses of conduct which, in other circumstances, Rev V B iid they would never have thought of pursuing; familiarizing their minds with thoughts and g May I84;i. resolutions that must be very detrimental to their moral and religious character, and to their usefulness as citizens — to the formation and preservation of those habits to which I should wish to see society led, in relation to the institutions of their country. They are very apt to feel that modern society is forming itself into a state in which their interests are sacrificed wantonly ; and when that takes hold of large masses it becomes dangerous, and cannot long be controlled. Besides, I have a strong, impression that the longer you are able to keep up the general mass of the poor — if they are in a personal state of comfort— the more nearly you can keep them up to that state, the less likely are you to be troubled with pauper- ism ; but if you allow them to be plunged into the depths of depression and misery, I am afraid the pauperism will spread to a very large extent. 12.278. Did you observe when distress prevailed, that there was great reluctance to receive relief? — The greatest possible reluctance — except among a certain portion of the people. I have known families that have parted literally with every article of furniture — every blanket — everything in their houses, except, perhaps, a wheel to wind pirns, a chair to sit upon, and a pot to cook victuals, rather than receive charity ; and these, perhaps, had been at one time in possession of well furnished houses : and speaking of their houses being such, I speak of houses furnished in a style perfectly unknown in rural districts. I have been in the houses of parties who had a kitchen, which was such in respect of furniture and arrangement, that any person in the higher circles might have taken a meal there with the utmost comfort. There were mirrors, there were window sashes, and there was a library well stocked, in the houses to which I refer. I have known these families ; I have gone to their houses ; and I have found on revisiting them, when the depression had been protracted, that they had parted with everything, and were lying in the depth of winter, without a blanket ; and up to that time they had not accepted of one shilling in the shape of relief. I think it a very serious thing when the pressure comes so heavily as to beat down a popu- lation of that kind : and I tremble for the result, if such times are to come upon us again and frequently. I hope such evils are not before us. I should think it extremely desirable that some precaution should be taken ; and I am satisfied that within Renfrewshire we had the means of meeting the whole evil, without having asked one shilling beyond the bounds of the county. 12.279. Is it consistent with your knowledge that a considerable proportion of the popu- lation are deteriorated in character ? — There is a considerable portion who would not now make all the sacrifices which they were accustomed to make before receiving eleemo- synary aid. The principle of independence has received a very severe blow ; but I have frequently had occasion before to admire the elasticity of character they possess above any population I know ; — how they spring up from depression, get clothing, and are able to take their places in church ; and how readily they harmonize into a better state of society. They catch the feeling of independence, and cling to that feeling in times of exigency, which gives me great confidence in saying, that with some kind of arrangement, such as, I trust, the legislature contemplates, the independent character of the people in this portion of the island, might still be preserved. I think we are living still very much on the inde- pendent feelings and habits of former times ; and there is still such depth in those feelings and habits, that we have a great deal on which to rest our confidence for the future, with regard to the restoration of society to a sound and healthy state. 12.280. You aided in the administration of relief under the relief fund? — Yes; and under the ministers' fund, raised by collections from members of churches. There was an unwillingness to receive relief in some instances. Sometimes that unwillingness was car- ried to an undue extent. At the same time regarding it as relief, in the reception of which they were not to be exposed, and dealing confidentially with ministers and elders, they were disposed to receive a little under such circumstances, when they would have struggled on, and disposed of more furniture and clothing, before they would have applied for relief. And that was one great object of the fund — to prevent those people from parting so extensively with their furniture and clothing, and incapacitating themselves from attending church, and thereby losing their former habits and feelings. 12.281. Were there among them any cases of strong unwillingness? — I have met with cases of families who had been in total destitution for thirty hours — who had not been able to kindle a fire in the depth of winter — and who yet continued to refuse relief, till, learning their circumstances, it was pressed upon them by the elder of the district, and then received with sobbings and tears. 12.282. Is the provision for education in Paisley as good as it used to be ? — Far from it. We have the skeletons of schools. In the view of having to go to London for examination before Mr Wallace's committee, I collected a great body of statistics, which I have not had time to look out ; but I should think that not above one-third are undergoing education just now, that ought to be. Our educational system is at a lower ebb than that of almost any place in Scotland. 12.283. To encourage provident habits among the rising generation when they may have work, don't you consider it of the greatest importance to take the means for providing a good education ? — Certainly I do. There is a very pleasing instance of what we did with a portion of the fund committed to our care, as you know : we took some of the best edu- cated of the unemployed, and employed them as teachers. Having about sixty of them, and opening schools for the children of the unemployed, a great many got elementary in- I m JkllXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Examinations. Glasgow. Rev. A. Baird. 6 May 1843. etruction who probably would, otherwise, not have had anything at all. I learned a case last night, accidentally, of a young boy working at a cotton-mill, who at that time had got elementary reading, and learned so rapidly as to attract the notice of those who were en- gaged in teaching him ; and since that time he has, partly by the exertions of his parents, and partly by the aid of a benevolent teacher, been in school ever since, and is making most extraordinary progress. His mind seems to be a young mind of rather extraordinary character ; and probably that young person would never have been able to read at all. His progress is so great that anything given him to learn, such as a long hymn, he never needs to look at above once or twice ; and he is getting an elementary education in a way that is astonishing. I have seen many cases also of young people excited to read, and attending the evening schools to perfect their acquirements. We are altogether different from a community which is placed in similar circumstances externally, but which has not pre- viously attained the feelings and habits which our community had attained. 12.284. Their previous standard of intellectual culture was high ? — It was high for tradesmen ; but it has been going down, and among young people it is not what it was. 12.285. To what do you attribute their standard having been lowered ? — The progressive fall of wages, and the difficulty of getting education. Then there is the love of dress, a very good thing in itself, and one of the elements in the former state of society ; but when it becomes a passion, they soon get quit of what is necessary for education, cherishing those other habits. 12.286. Do you think the low rate of wages — the gradual fall of wages — has acted so as to deteriorate their character to a great extent ? — To a very considerable extent, but not so much the small rate as the great uncertainty. 12.287. And has this character so reacted as to impair their physical condition? — I think it has to a very considerable extent. I am afraid their physical condition is affected to a very serious amount, notwithstanding the extraordinary health of the town since the de- pression began. Cases of consumption have been exceedingly prevalent. Cases of that kind are daily manifested in persons whose constitutions have been broken down, and who have become subject to premature decay. 12.288. Have you any suggestions to make with regard to the poor law ? — With regard to the law of settlement, my own sentiments are, that there ought to be no law of settle- ment at all. Parties ought to abide, so far as they have a legal claim to the parish with which they were originally connected. 12.289. By birth ? — By birth ; or, if any other period should be thought of, I think it should be a long period, say ten years. I am satisfied that the manufacturing towns are burdened with an immense mass of people from all parts of the country, who occasion great expense and trouble in such a place as this, while but little is needed for the poor in country parishes, as they are drained off by the people coming here. They are thrown on a small portion of the property in this locality, though their labour has been the means of promoting the national good, and the matter ought to be a national concern. To throw the whole burden on the locality would be ruinous. Mr J. W. Black. J. W. Black, Esq., Visiting District Siu-geon, Examined ; — 12.290. (Mr Camphell.) — You are one of the district surgeons in the Barony parish ? — ^I am. 12.291. Is Kirk Street in your district ? — It is — the greater portion. 12.292. Have you got notice to attend any persons in the house of Mrs Murray, Kirk Street ? — Yes ; I have often got notices for that house. 12.293. Have you lately ? — I had, six weeks or a month ago. 12.294. Have you had notice to visit within three weeks ? — I think not. 12.295. Do you know if any one in a state of lunacy is there just now ? — There is a woman who lodged some tune ago with her brother-in-law, who was in the habit of maltreating her ; and on a Sunday morning she leapt over a window three storeys high. The police watch- man came to me that morning, and asked me to go and see this person. I went down, and on examination found her very severely hurt, and recommended her to be taken to the infirmary, as there was no accommodation in the house where she stayed. The persons there promised to send her to the infirmary ; but I understand she was not sent. Some neighbours called at my shop afterwards, and told me they considered it was owing to ill usage from her friends that she had leapt out of the window, and that they were able to prove it. I ascer- tained that Mr Maclaren paid these people for keeping this woman in this house, and that the person who had charge of her wiis her own brother-in-law, and his wife was this poor Avoman's sister ; and I should naturally suppose they were as proper persons as Mr Maclaren could get to take care of her. I went to Mr Maclaren and told him what had happened, and he recommended me to call at the police office and lodge a complaint, which I did. Captain Smart ordered them to be apprehended, and summoned witnesses. The case was found to be of too aggravated a nature to be settled in a police court, and was referred to a higher tribunal ; and I understand the man and woman were sentenced to some short period of con- finement in bridewell. This poor woman was not sent up to the infirmary, because I think the friends were still anxious to receive money fiom Mr Maclaren for keepmg her. I recom- mended Mr Maclaren to take her out of that house as not being a proper place for her ; and he put her into Mrs Murray's. I do not think that she is in such a state of lunacy as to require removal to an asylum. 12.296. How do you understand she is living in Mrs Murray's now ? — The last order I POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. G89 got was to visit a poor woman with a dropsical swelling in the feet and legs at Mrs Murray's, and saw her there. 12.297. {Mr Twisleton.) — Had not the person in whose house this lunatic resided pawned the clothes of the lunatic ? — Yes ; she had been fui-nishcd with clothes of her own by Mr Maclaren. 12.298. (Mr Camphell.) — Have you seen a person in a state of lunacy in Mrs Murray's ? — No. 12.299. Have you anything to state about an old man lying in a bed there ill?— There was an old man whom I saw in that house. It is about a year ago or more. Perhaps he was sent to AiTan. 12.300. A person of the name of M'Innes ? — ^No ; there was a man insane about a year or a year and a half ago. I forget his name. He took occasional fits of going up to see John Knox's monument at the Necropolis. 12.301. You have not got notes to visit any person in IMurray's house for the last three or four weeks ? — I can safely say not. 12.302. Have you visited Leech's house lately? — I have not visited it for the last three months. 12.303. IVhat is the state of the poor children boarded there by the Barony? — The house is not in my district. 12.304. Does your district extend to Silver Grove ? — My district docs not extend to Silver Grove. Leech formerly had a house in my district, and he removed, 12.305. Have you attended him since he removed ? — At his own request I have. 12.306. Have you seen many children belonging to the Barony parish there lately ? — Yes. 12.307. How long ago ?■ — The first case I was called to, was three months ago, — a poor boy who had taken fever. There were a good many children in the house at the time. 12.308. How many ? — I cannot say, I shall state what happened, I foimd this boy la- bouring under what I considered fever. Seeing the number of children in the house, I con- sidered it my duty to send the case to the fever hospital, and gave a line of admission, which was signed by Mr Maclaren ; and the boy was instantly removed to the infirmary. AYord came down that it was not fever ; that he was put forward into another ward, and treated there for some time, and then sent home. I forget whether I sent another boy after that. I know I was talking about sending a second to the fever hospital; but hearing that this individual had been refused admittance to the fever hospital, and that word had been sent to Mr Llaclaren, desiring hun to tell his district surgeons to be more cautious about sending cases of fever to the house ; and finding that several had been sent home again, in other quarters (for I have a district in the city of Glasgow also), and that there was a great deal of misundci'standing about the nature of these cases among the medical attendants m the fever hospital, I was very much at a loss what to do. When I found they did not admit this case from Leech's into the fever hospital, I could not send more of them up. I was obliged to treat them in the house. The fever went through it. Several cfiught it two or three times. But the blame I consider rests a great deal on their not having admitted the cases Into the fever hospital when sent up. 12.309. How many caught fever? — Somewhere about twenty to twenty-four. 12.310. Were they in one or two rooms ? — In three apartments. There Is a large room off the kitchen ; then there is another room detached. 12.311. Do the children Inhabit the three rooms ? — Yes. I attended them in the kitchen, and the room oflf It at the side. There were two old women who took fever ; one of whom had petechia;, which was the only case in which the eruption was visible. The reason why tliere was a misunderstanding at the fever hospital was the absence of jietechia;. 12.312. Were part of the children In one of the rooms ?^Yes. 12.313. About what size were the rooms? — I cannot be certain. It was an ordinary sized room — as large as in the generality of houses In this locality. 12.314. Has there been fever in the house since ? — I am most anxious to get them better, and removed elsewhere ; for I considered the number rather many ; and I know it has been a matter of great aiDciety to Mr Maclaren and the elder who sent me there, to have the same accomplished. 12.315. Then some of them are removed? — Yes. 12.316. What was the period when you sent the boy to the infirmary ?^--My book would show. It is .about thi-ee months ago. 12.317. Have you had any coses within the last fortnight ? — I have not got orders. But I have been visiting till within the fortnight. 12.318. Was there fever there a fortnight ago? — There was. 12.319. The fever you were speaking of, or a fi-esh attack? — It never was away from the liouse. 12.320. How many children were In the house when you saw them a fortnight ago ? — I cannot tell — but a considerable number. 12,.321. Had Leech fever?— Yes. 12.322. And his wife? — Yes ; and his daughter. 12.323. How many died ? — An old woman of fever, and a boy, from organic affection of the bowels, after fever. He had very severe purging which could not be stopped. 12.324. How many adults were in the house when there were twenty children? — Three. One died. Another was admitted to the hospital. Another was aflfected with rheumatism, but she never had fever, though she was with them .all the time. 12.325. Are these three boarders from the Barony parish ? — They are. AYR, 4 T Examinations. Glasgow. Mr J, W. Black, 6 May 1843, 690 IVIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Ayr. 8 Mav 1843, AYR. Monday, 8th May 1843.' MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Belhavcn, James Campbell of Craigle, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rev. James Robertson. LORD BELHAVEN IN THE CHAIR. Mr S. Rovran. Stephen Rowan, Esq., Session-Clerk of Ayr, and one of the Managers of the Poorhouse ther^ Depones : — The managers of the poorhouse attend to the whole poor of Ayr over the whole parish. Tliey consist of the magistrates, every heritor in the parish having above bOl. annual rent, and representatives from the different corporations within the burgh. The funds for the poor are raised partly by an assessment imposed upon the parish, and levied upon rental, and means and substance, and from collections at the two parish chim;hes. There are also certain mortifications and sixty-four bolls of meal paid annually to the poorhouse from the lands of Kingcase, and the rent of the fami of Sessionfield — a mortification by Sir Robert Blackwood for the use of the poor of Ajt, also the bequests of Alderman Smith and Mr Dick, the proceeds of which appear more particularly in the statement now given in : — STATE of RECEIPTS and EXPENDITURE on account of the Poor of the Parish of Ayr, for the Year ending Slst December 1842. Receipts. To balance in Ayrshire Bank at last year's settlement, Poor's Stent received, Interest on Captain Tenant's Mortification, Interest on Alderman Smith and Mr Dick's Mortifications, Interest on Mr Fergusson's Mortification, Cash for "Work done in House, Interest from Ayrshire Banking Company, Cash on account of Paupers, Balance due the Treasurer, Cash from Kirk-Session, Meal on hand at last year's settlement, 21\ bolls at 16s. ... Meal received from Loans, ... 64 do. at 16s. ... 85i Stock on Hand. — 1 BoU of Meal ; 22^ cwt. of Oakum. Expenditure. By Cash paid Out-Pensioners, Cases of Emergency, ... Passes and other Expenses with Stranger Poor, Board for Lunatics, Board at Blind Asylum, Board for James MiUer at Dvmdee Asylum, Insurance and Assessment, Printing and Stationery, Coffins and Interments, Salaries for Master and Matron, Mr M'Derment's Retired Allowance, Mercer's Account, Shoemaker's do.. Barber's do., Butcher's do., Baker's do., Tailor's do., IMilk and Butter do., *•• £190 3 2 • *• 525 D • •• 12 9 10 • •• 67 8 3 • • • 40 • •• 2 13 6 • •• 4 13 • •• 1 10 • •• 1 3i • • • 154 14 9 £17 51 4 68 4 £1066 18 6i £437 3 1 ... 44 12 5 11 10 11 ... 90 19 11 18 1 ... 15 ... 1 4 1 5 1 3 ... 16 12 6 ... 80 ... 10 ... 17 2 li ... 5 14 8i ... 17 4 ... 8 7 ... 19 18 7 2 3 7 ... 12 4 6i Cany forward, £796 6 7^ POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 691 Brought forward, By cash paid Barley account, Cooperage do., ... ... ... ••• ... ... Coals do., ... ... ••• ••• ••• Herrings and Salt do., ... Potatoes do., ... Soap and Candles do., ... Groceries (including Tea, Sugar, and Cordials), Ironmongery do.. Expenses with Garden, Straw, Chaft^ Brooms, Chimney Sweeping, and other petty Expenses, Old Ropes, Repairs on House, ... ... ... ... £796 3 17 2 21 5 23 1 1 1 10 6 6 14 6 10 7 2 19 15 17 4 16 5 7i 3 8 2 8 3 9* 9 7i 7* By Meal to Out-Pensioners, 23 Bolls at IGs., used in House, 58f do. at Kis., for emergent cases, 2^ do. at 16s., on hand, ... 1 do. at 16s., £18 8 47 2 16 £892 7 Oi 85i By Balance in Ayrshire Bank, 68 106 4 7 6 £1066 18 6i Aifr, Jan. 30, 1843. — ^The above account examined with the vouchers, and found correct. J. D. BOSWELL. THOS. M'CLELAND. The parish is divided into districts, and each district is taken charge of by an elder. The poor's funds are managed by a committee of nine, one of whom is elected by the magistrates, tluee by the kirk-session, and five by the general body of the managers. That committee meets quarterly, and the applications of persons to be admitted to the poor's roll are then laid before them. Such applications or petitions are lodged with the superintendent ten days before the meeting of managers, and he makes inquiry into the circumstances of the petitioner, and reports upon tliem to the meeting ; and the case is then discussed, and it is determined whether the applicant shall be admitted to the roll or not. If any urgent case occurs between the quarterly meetings of the managers, the superintendent has it in his power to call a special meeting of the managers to decide in regard to it, who, in some in- stances, give temporary relief, and in others admit the party into the house. The superin- tendent may also give small sums by way of temporary aid in urgent cases without calling any meeting. Previous to the last three years the management was vested in the whole body of directors, and it has been since placed under a committee of nine. The elders in each district had formerly a power of giving temporary relief, but they cannot do so now without consulting the superintendent. A sub-committee out of the committee of nine audits the accounts once a year ; and in order to ascertain that the collections at the church doors have been folly accounted for to the managers of the poorhouse, the account of them and other monies received by the session-clerk is audited by a committee of the kirk-session. The sole duty of the auditors is to see that the items of the accounts are correct. They have nothing to do with the legality of the expenditm-e. There is an aimual general meeting of the whole body of the directors, at which five persons are appointed to act in the committee of nine managers. The whole management of the year, with the statement of accounts and report of the committee is laid before the annual meeting. Objections might then be made to any illegal payment appearing in the accounts, but witness has never known such a case occur. If an objection were made and overruled by the majority of the meeting, an indivi- dual objecting would have no means of redress, but by an appeal to the Court of Session. ExaminatioBB. Ayr. Mr S. Rowan. 8 May 1843. Mr William Lennox, Superintendent of the Poorhouse of Ayr, and of the whole Poor of the Parish, Depones : — There are at present thirty-seven inmates in the house — four men, ten women, twelve girls, and eleven boys. The dietary consists of porridge and milk for breakfast and supper, for all except the women, at an average of 6i oz. of meal for each individual. The women get tea and baps, that is rolls, each bap 5 oz. of second flour. They have 1^ oz. of tea, and half a pound of sugar to each woman per week, which is given out to them, and they make their own tea. For dinner, there is broth made of bullock's head, with pota- toes, three or sometimes four days in the week. The remaining days, the dinner consists of potatoes and milk, or potatoes and herrings, or occasionally potatoe soup ; sometimes in summer, barley portunitics of ascertaining the circumstances and habits of the different individuals under their charge; and partly because the distribution of temporal relief by them has a moral influence of a very beneficial tendency. Has not considered the point, but apprehends, at first sight, that there would be difficulty in allotting the fund raised by assessment among the several communions having an interest in it. Is not sure that the difficulty to which he has alluded, is insuperable ; but should hope it might be got over by a suitable machinery. Does not think it would be possible, in the present state of society, to dispense with assessments in large towns, and depend upon collections at the church doors. — Interrogated, " Supposing the distribution of the money raised by ii^sessment were entrusted to religious communities, would that have a tendency to create hypocrisy among the recijjients of the relief." Answers, " I am not sure that it would, supposing it were distributed faiily among persons of all religious denominations." Should think that a pauper woidd not be likely to get more from an elder if he assumed an appearance of reli- gious fer\'our. Does not see how pecuniary considerations coidd have any influence, under such a system, in impairing the 2)uiity of the religious intercourse between a minister and a panper. Should think rate-payers would be willing to allow money raised by an assessment to be distributed by persons in the election of M'hom they had no voice, provided that tiiey have a proper influence in the imposition of the assessment, and the allotment of it to the various religious communities. If persons belong to none of the religious communities, supposes they would apply to the Established church, and woidd be equally weU treated as if they did belong to it. Has found by his own experience, both in his former and f resent charge, that there was no partiality in the administration of the poor's funds. — aterrogated, " Whether he thinks there would be any danger of a minister and kirk-session considering a man to be of bad character who did not belong to any religious conmiunion ?" Answers, " I would feel difficulty in saying what might be the opinion of otlicr gentlemen ; but I have no hesitation in expressing my belief that no minister would, on the single groimd that a parishioner does not belong to a church, either regard him as a bad character, or with- hold from him the amount of relief to which he is legally entitled." Witness resided, more than twenty years ago, for two years as a tutor in Argyleshire ; but he has not resided in any of the northern parishes of Scotland. In speaking of the independent spirit in the northern parishes, he meant those to the north of Chirnside, sudi as in Mid-Lothian, Lanarkshire, and Ayrshire, &c. Has not resided in parishes in any of these counties, except in Kilmarnock. Does not therefore speak from personal observation as to the comparative feeling of inde- pendence in Chirnside, and those parishes respectively ; but his impression, which he knows to be a correct one, arises from conversation and readuig, — that, in th& border parishes, pau- pers feel much less delicacy in applying for parochial relief than persons in similar circum- stances in the counties referred to. — Interrogated, " What are the books to which you refer ?' Answers, " Chiefly the statistical accounts." His impression is, that the rates of allowances in these border parishes are higher than in the coimties referred to. In considering pauper- ism, he has often been desirous of seeing something in the shape of prevention. His convic- tion is, that one important means of preventing its increase is the imjirovement and extension of education, — its improvement by combining, more than has yet been done, moral and religious instruction with intellectual culture, — and its extension by the erection and endow- ment of additional schools. His opinion is contained in the following paragraph of a report drawn up by him on the free school of Kilmarnock for the year 1841, to which he begs to refer : — " We might even urge the support of this institution on the lower ground that education is the cheap defence of towns as well as of nations. That the more money we devote to the proper instraction of the children of the lower classes, the less is afterwards required from ua for the support of jails and bridewells, hospitals and poorhouses, is not now a matter of mere gpecidation. It is susceptible of the clearest demonstration by a long array of facts, gathered from the principal cities of the empire, that the i)lanting of .schools in poor districts is very goon followed by a decrease of the number of criminals, paupers, and patients, and, conse- quently, by a diminution of the sums that have been previously levied on account of these classes. Arguing from this principle, who can tell but that the large amount required for tlie relief of the poor — estimated this year at 1700/. — might, in a short time, be reduced by a liberal extension of the benefits of an improved system of education for the poorer parts of the town ? At all events, by raising the standard of education in these neglected localities, and improving the habits of the crowded families in regard to sobriety, industry, economy, and independence, we may do much to prevent the increase of those assessments which press 80 heavily upon many, but which are indispensably necessary from the demoralised and im- poverished state into which large masses of the community have been suffered to fall." There is one point connected with pauperism, which is particularly distressing in this town, — the circumstance that hundreds of families are unable to give educatiju to their POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 713 cliilclren, and that hundreds of children are growing up without the simplest elements of in- struction. The parents are too poor to pay the school fees. There arc schools in which the fees are not above 3s. a quarter ; but hundreds of industrious and sober parents, owing to the depression of business, the want of employment, and the lo^vness of wages, are unable to pay even those small fees ; so that although a good education has a tendency to check pau- perism, poverty has also a tendency to prevent the diffusion of education, so that means for the physical as well as for the moral improvement of the people should go hand in hand. Exatiiiiiatiuns. Kilmarnock. Rev. Mr Maclndoe. 11 May \^.U■^. William Bunton, Esq., Treasurer to the Saving Bank In Ealmamock, Depones :- Mr William Burton. It has been established since 1821. There are 1260 open accounts with the bank, averao-ino' lOs. lOd. each ; but he has no means of ascertaining correctly the class of contri- butors. About one-half of them are composed of females and children of the middle class ; the other half chiefly of people from the surrounding villages, — colliers, labourers, skinners, «S;c. Very few of the operatives receiving high wages are contributors, such as printers, for instance, and carpet weavers. There was a tailing off" of the receipts last year, which he attributes to distress among the working classes. The excess of payments over the sums lodged was only 111. 18s. Id., the lodgements being 3940Z. 6s. 2^d., and the payments 4018L 4s. 3d. The operations of the bank are confined to sums from Is. to IQl. It is not a national savings' bank, and there is no such bank in the town. The savings' bank is much made use of as a provident bank, in which sums are lodged for payment of rent at term time. Witness gave in the rules of the savings' bank, and also the following tables : — ABSTRACT STATEMENT— Transactions of Kilmarnock Savings' Bank, for the year from 3l8t January 1842, till 31st January 1843. KECEIPTS. PAYMENTS. Month ending 1842. February 28,. March 28,. April 25,. May 30,. June 27,. July 25,. August 29,. September 26,. October 31,. November 28,. December 26,. 1843. January 30,. Total, Averaging each,. Number of Lodge- ments. 269 255 184 237 245 226 258 209 229 196 231 262 2801 Amount. £ s. 330 4 265 13 216 8 325,19 422 8 310 5 360 17 297 11 328 2 263 15 341 17 364 1 d. 2 11 3 7 6i 4 4i 6 2 3827 3 10 17 3 Month ending Number of Payments, 1842. February 28,., March 28,. April 25,. May 30,. June 27,. July 25,. August 29,. September 26,. October 31,. November 28,. December 26,. 1843. January 30,. Total, Averaging each,. 96 89 125 132 73 63 70 47 80 100 67 72 Amount. 1014 £ 357 385 504 528 370 216 207 128 282 386 410 239 s. d. 7 5i 7 10 11 8 17 81 3 lOi 1 ^ 7 41 15 71 16 11 11 21 16 4 7 61 4018 4 31 3 19 2 Lodgements as above, Interest carried to credit of Depositors, Total to credit of Depositors, £3827 3 10 113 2 41 £3940 6 21 4 Y ABSTRACT 714 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Ki lmarno ck. ABSTRACT STATEMENT of the Receipts and Payments of Kilmarnock Savings' Mr w. Burton. Bank since commencement. 1 1 May 1843 Receipts. Payments. Increase. Decrease. £ S. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ «. d. Year ending 31st May 1822,... 876 5 4 256 14 619 11 4 • • • • • • 1823,... 1058 13 8 699 11 41 359 2 Si 305 18 10| • • • • • • 1824,... 1297 4 Oi 991 5 2 • • ■ • • * 1825,... 1513 9 10 1199 2 314 7 10 1826,... 1489 6 2i 1439 8 71 49 17 7 1827,... 869 17 ^ 917 7 11 47 10 "ei 1828,... 1175 18 H 817 15 10^ 358 2*"3 • • • ■ • • 1829,... 1621 18 1441 11 Oi 180 6 llj • • • • • • 1830,... 1397 6 5 1409 6 11 14 1 1831,... 1493 7 01 1265 6 7 228 5^ • ■ ■ • ■ * .4 18.32,... 1657 11 8i 1674 4 7 • • ■ • • • 14 12 101 1833,... 1906 14 11 1772 2 4 132 11 9^ 1834,... 2577 2 4 2360 8 li 216 14 21 • • • • • 1835,... 2476 19 3 2365 9 1 111 10 2 1836,... 2668 13 41 2265 3 61 2687 9 2| 403 9 10 • •• • •• 1837,,.. 3000 16 51 313 7 3 • ■ • « • ■ From 31st May 1837 tiU 31st Jan. 1838,... 2195 18 61 2049 6 146 12 61 Year ending ... 1839,... 3369 11 91 2925 19 7^ 443 12 2 ■ • • • • 1840,... 3601 12 2 3607 6i 3768 3 6| 4368 17 l| ■ • • • •• 5 8 '41 • • •• 1841,... 4277 11 8 509 8 11 • • • • • 1842,... 4499 1 8 130 4 61 ... 1843,... 3940 6 21 4018 4 3| 77 18 1 48965 5 4 44299 11 1 4822 18 21 157 3 111 Payments, 44299 11 1 Decrease,... 157 3 111 4665 14 3 4665 14 3 31st January 1843. — Open Accounts, 1260, averagii ig 31. lOs. lOd. each. New Accounts opened in the course of the year 1842-43, 312 ; about an ( jqual number closed. Dr Whitelaw. ^^ Wliitelaw, one of the District Surgeons in Kilmarnock, Depones : — Has been so for eight years, ^vith the exception of last year. Is in the habit of visiting parties in receipt of parochial relief. Is of opinion that in many cases the sustenance afforded is inadequate. In many cases such inadequacy is prejudicial to the health of the parties, — this statement is made from personal observation. In fever cases, no provision is made for parties in a state of convalescence, and low nourishment predisposes to fever and to aggravation of scrofolous complaints, wliich, in his opinion, prevail in Kilmarnock. Intem- perance and bad habits promote that disease also, and intemperance does prevail among the lower orders to a very great extent. Finds some difficulty in obtaining nutritious diet for his poor patients. Formerly dispensary patients were allowed more readily, than at pre- sent, supplies of beef and wine ; and he is convinced that four-fifths of the dispensary patients applied for the sake of obtaining such extra food. In many of the cases that he has seen, he coidd find no particular disease, but merely some trifling ailment. They merely appUed for food ; and from the appearance of their persons and houses, has no doubt but that they were in misery, and required food. Perhaps in some instances, although they coidd not have afforded beef and wine, they might have been able to afford other food, as some mem- bers of the family were in employment. They applied to the dispensary to save them from want, rather than in order to obtain more luxurious diet. Under the present arrangements, they have no difficidty in obtaining mere medical relief. It must be added, however, that many of the dispensary patients are of very intemperate and improvident habits. In some cases, though not in all, the want of food might have been owing to the parties themselves. A great number of their houses are very dirty, and HI ventilated ; and no attention is paid to personal cleanliness. Under the present arrangement, when nutritious diet is required, witness recommends a small supply to be made from the dispensary funds, and if more is needed, he recommends an application to Mr Finlay the superintendent of the poor. His recommenda- tions are generally duly attended to, but he requires sometimes to urge them a good deal. Knows nothing of the condition of able-bodied persons out of employment, and has had no practice in the rural parishes in the neighbourhood. Has no suggestion to make as to the poor law, except that he is satisfied the poor are not sufficiently provided for in food, cloth- POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 715 ing, fuel and houses The houses are wretched in the extreme. The assessment is burdened Giving to dissipation, and to persons deserting their wives and families. Attributes deser- tions a great deal to early marriages, which are very prevalent in Kilmarnock. Examin.ations. Kilmarnock. Dr Whitelaw. 11 May \mx Charles Dalrymple Gairdner, Esq., Depones : — Mr C. Gairdner. Was one of the committee of heritors appointed on the 1st July 1842, to examine the poor's list of the heritors and kirk-session of KUmamock. Is himself an heritor. The printed report prefixed to the list of paupers in the parish was signed by him, amongst others. Has merely been in the habit of attending the statutory half-yearly meetings, but has had no other share in the management of the poor. In the report complaint is made of the increase of the assessment since 1830, and especially since 1838 ; that is to say, not so much of the general increase, as of the comparative increase in some quarters of the parish. Considering the population of the town and parish, which is nearly 20,000, he woidd hardly venture to say whether the sum of 1724Z. 2s. O^d. is an unreasonable siun to be expended on the poor. Thinks it more than would be required if under proper management. The defects in the present management are, that it is principally in the hands of people who have little interest in keeping down the expense ; and he considers it an evil that the clergymen of the parish do not in general attend the meetings connected with the management of the poor. Another reason for the expenditure being so great, is, that, according to the present system of management, the heritors in town and country who actually pay the poor's stent are often outvoted by parties who pay little or no stent. Some who have voted as heritors have come forward afterwards to be excused, on the ground of poverty, from paying at all. Since the change that has taken place in the mode of assess- ment, great unwillingness exists on the part of poor people to maintain their jiarents, and there is not a sufficient disposition on the part of the managers to enforce what he considers a legal and natural obligation. The managers of the poor have, on very many occasions, admitted persons on the poor's roU without previously applying to their relations to ascertain their ability to maintain them. The defects in the management above pointed out have disgusted the heritors both in town and country so much, that they do not now attend to the poor so weU as they otherwise would. Thinks that the present system has led to the admission, on the pooi^s list, of clamorous persons who ought to have received no relief at all, to the great detriment of the really indigent and deserving poor, who do not receive enough, or, in fact, starve. Is of opinion, that if a qualification were required, either in rental or in the amount of poor rates, from every heritor before he could vote, a higher class of individuals would interest themselves in the management of the poor, and the really poor would in that case be much better provided for. Does not think it would be desirable to intrust the management of the poor, with reference to Kilmarnock, to kirk-sessions, without a considerable check upon them. Has not confidence in the management of kirk-sessions as at present constituted, unless in connexion with the heritors, but would not recommend any interference with the existing system of management of kirk-sessions united with the heritors. There has been a good deal of distress in KUmamock within the last four years. The trade of the town principally depends upon cai-pet and shawl manufactures, and these have been in a depressed condition dming that period. That depression cannot account for the increase of assessment, because that ought equally to have aflPected aU quarters of the town ; whereas in some the expense has decreased above 40 per cent., while in others it has increased above 150 per cent. Often districts into which the town is divided, there was only one quarter during the four years in which the increase exceeded 72^ per cent. ; the increase in the quarter to which he alludes was 150 per cent. There was a decrease in two districts only ; in one of these the decrease was 18 per cent., — in the other 41 per cent., but in the quarter which increased 150 per cent, during the four years, there had only been an increase of 7 per cent, between 1830 and 1838, which he imputes verycnuch to the superior manage- ment of the former managers. His opinion of the superior management in that quarter previous to 1838, as compared with the subsequent years, is not foimded on actual personal observation of the condition of the poor during the two respective periods, but arising from the reasons given to him by the managers of the district at the two periods as connected with each individual pauper whom they had upon their respective fists. Cannot state from actual observation that the decrease in the two quarters above referred to, of 18 per cent, and 41 per cent., has not arisen from improper economy and inadequate allowances to paupers in those quarters, and has not the least doubt that, had such improper economy existed, it would have been animadverted upon by some of the other district managers who were present when the fists were scrutinized. It is possible, however, that the reduction in the expenditure may have arisen from the death of paupers in those districts ; but whether it did so or not, he cannot state. Both the districts in which there was a decrease of expendi- ture contain a fair proportion of the manufactiunng population of the town, and the one in which there was the largest increase does not consist of a poorer, if so poor, a class as those in which there was a decrease. The history of the appointment of the monthly committees is as follows : — Several years ago Mr Smith, the minister of Kilmamock, asked the aid of different persons in the town to join with the session in the management of the poor ; the town was then divided into ten different districts, and each district was then represented by an elder or elders, and certain other persons of well-known respectabifity in the locafity. At each succeeding half-yearly 716 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE ExHiniiiations. Kilmarnock. Mr C. Gaiidner. 11 May 1843. meeting of the heritors and kirk-session, the same individuals were usually re-appointed, with certain alterations and additions. Cannot state the number of individuals in those monthly committees. He himself has occasionally attended, and seen the numbers varying from ten to twenty. AU the parties belonging to the different districts are expected to attend the monthly meeting. At the monthly meeting, the district applications are judged of by the general meeting. Is not satisfied with the present system of assessment in Kilmarnock, because the estimate of the means and substance of different individuals is at times not cor- rectly ascertained. If the means and substance were estimated by the rental of dwelling- houses in town and country, although by such a mode certain wealthy individuals might escape their proportion, he thinks it would be preferable to the present mode. The present mode is not inquisitorial, but it is conjectural. The statutory meeting of heritors appoints the stentmasters, but there is no necessary connexion between a party being on the monthly committee, and being a manager. Is joint treasm-er of the funds for the free school. It is entirely supported by voluntary contributions. The average amount of subscriptions during the last twenty-four years has been from 60Z. to 70^., and the average number of day scholars during the same period has been 157. Last year they amounted to 210. They are aU educated gratis. The manage- ment of the school is under twenty-four directors, appointed by the subscribers, eight retiring every year. Applications for admission are made to a director or directors, who bring thera before the first quarterly meeting, and if the meeting are of opinion that the parties applying on behalf of their chUdreu are unable to pay for education, they recommend the children for admission. Sometimes from the school being full, new admissions are necessarily postponed. The education given is merely elementary. Children are often withdrawn while their edu- cation is stiU imperfect. The du'cctors enforce regidarity of attendance as far as possible, but witness believes the attendance to be less regular from the fact that the education is entirely gratuitous. Has had no means of tracing the pi'ogress in life of the children educated at the free school. The free school does not provide adequately for the education of the children in Kilmarnock, and at times there is great difficulty in supporting it, from the want of neces- sary subscriptions. — -Interrogated, " How he accounted for the decrease of expense in one district, and the increase in another, through diversity of management in the district managers, when the whole committee of management decide on the cases?" Answers, " Unless it be some pecidiar case, the general committee very much confide in the management of the district committees." Rev.D. Arthur. Rev. David ArtJitir, Parocliial Missionary of the High Church Parish of Kilmarnock, Depones : — Has fi-equcnt occasion to visit the poor in discharge of his official duties. Visits aU classes of poor. The poor on the parish roll are, in his opinion, upon the whole inadequately provided for. Some of them are in a tolerably comfortable condition — others not. Those who are comfortable, are so from other circumstances than from the parish allowance, owing, firstly, to their being assisted by relations ; or, secondly, from tlieir being of a better moral character, and, consequently, more provident. There is a good deal of private charity in KUmamock, but understands that it has become less since the assessment was laid on. Thinks that paupers of good character receive sympathy and assistance from their wealthier neighbours, — but more sympathy thcan assistance. Has found persons on the poor's roU, whom he knows to be of good character, in very destitute circumstances. Even with the aid of private charity, such persons are not adequately maintained. Has been in his present situation since September 1841, and has been in the neighbourhood of Kilmarnock for ten years previously. The poor have, since he came to KUmaniock, been morally sinking. Cannot say that he has observed any particular change in their physical condition diu"ing the same period. There are thi'ce causes to which he woidd attribute the deterioration in their moral condition : — 1st, The present depressed state of trade ; 2d, The influx of Irish into the town ; and, 3d, The prevalence of infidel opinions. The depression of trade has affected them by their having been obliged to sell their clothes, and thus been prevented from attending church, in consequence of which they have fallen into evil prac- tices. The influx of Irish liiis operated from the fact, that most of them are Koman Catholics who have no place of worship, and stay at home during the Sabbath, and lead others into the same careless liabits. States, however, tliat a priest from Ayr comes up once a fortnight. Cannot say whether they belong to temperance societies, but he thinks not. He traces the prevalence of infidel opinions to the growth of socialism. Though he tliinks parents of poor children would wish to have theu* families educated, they are in fact not educated. The means provided for the education of poor children are not sufficient. One grand instrument in elevating the status and moral condition of the poorer classes is edu- cation, with moral and religious instruction. Apart fi'om moral and religious instruction, no means would be effectual. Kev. J. Porteoua. Jiev. James Porteous, Minister of the Parish of Kiccarton, Depones : — The village of Kiccarton is within the parliamentary burgh of Kilmarnock. The parish is under a separate management as regards the poor. There is what is called a POOR LAW INQUIRY COM^HSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 717 voluntary assessment in the parish. The heritors leave the management almost entirely to the kirk-session, except that they overlook the accounts at the half-yearly statutory meetings. The session-clerk, when specially requested, inspects cases of applicants for relief. The heritors assess themselves every half-yearly meeting on their valued rental. An old man past work, but not bed-ridden, and without relatives to assist him, would receive Is. (jd. or perhaps 2s. a week. A married couple would not get much more between them. Some- times, but rarely, relief is given to a widow with one child in health ; and they sometimes, but not frequently, give relief to mothers of illegitimate children, but they are very anxious to cut off the latter class just now. To a widow with four children under ten years of age, they would not give more than 3s. a week, but does not kni3w there are any receiving this allow- ance. They allow for an oi-jihan 2s. or 2s. Gd. a week, with clothes. They have no particular houses in which they board orphans — they are sent to their nearest relatives, if there be any, if not, to the most convenient house. They have two lunatics, one in Glasgow asylum, and the other in Dumfries. They have one lunatic, or at least a woman of fatuous mind, who is boarded with a relative near Ayr. The session look after the education of the orphans. They occasionally grant relief to able-bodied persons on account of casual failure of work, but rather reluctantly. Cannot say how many ; they may come down and get a shilling or so. They gi-ant relief to able-bodied persons in cases of sickness. He does not know how many were relieved last year. Does not think if the case were urgent that they would refiise relief to an able-bodied person in sickness. The year before last there was a separate fund raised m the parish for the relief of the un- employed able-bodied, — 362Z. was raised on that occasion. Most of it was expended in piu-chasing yam, and giving wages to Meavers. It was intended that the weavers should not be able to earn more than Is. a day. Some of them may perhaps have earned more. There were about forty on this fund. The popidation of the parish at last census was 3326. Part of the 362/. was expended for a soup-kitchen, from which soup was given to women as well as men. The number of individuals supported in this way must have been upwards of 100. There were from forty to fifty rations a day of soup and bread, or potatoes. Each ration, on an average, would cost 2d. One single individual, during the day, would get a penny loaf and a chopin of broth ; but if there were four in a family, they would not get four times that. Does not think any famUy got more than a twopenny worth of bread, and a Scotch pint and a half of broth. The relief to the weavers began in Febniaiy and continued until Whitsunday. The soup-kitchen began about the same time, but was closed earlier ; but no account has been preserved of the numbers on the ftind. Cannot give infor- mation about the fund raised last winter. The session-clerk wiU do so. There is no parish doctor for the poor of Eiccarton. If a pauper is ill he would apply to the session, but since 1837, there have not been more than two or three applications. Is of opinion that the allowances given are scarcely adequate to the wants of the jioor. There is and must be a good deal of private charity in order to supplement the allowances to persons of good character. Has known instances of persons of good character on the poor's roU who have been poorly off; but does not recollect any cases of extreme destitution amongst them. The reason is that such persons receive a good deal from private charity. — Interrogated, " Why, being of opinion that the allowances at present are insufficient, he does not raise them ?" Answers, " That we would just draw paupers from other parishes. We are at present better than other parishes, and higher than Kilmarnock. In fact many of our paupers come from KUmamock." Interrogated, " If there would be any difficidty in getting an increase of assessment, if necessary ?" Answers, " Our heritors are at present very generous, and I do not think they would reftise anything, if necessaiy." Farm servants past work have no difficulty in finding houses in the village, but there are veiy few cottar's houses in the parish. There are very few married fann servants. Almost all the farmers work their own farms. Except that the allowances are too low, in his opinion, the present machinery of the poor law works \^cll. Does not think that there are any cases of extreme distress which ai'e not immediately relieved. Examiiiatiuns. KiLMAKNOCK. Rev. J. Porteous. 11 May iai:i. Mr William Hood, Session-Clerk of the Parish of Ricearton, and Collector of the Poor Rates, Depones : — There have been three different ftmds for the support of the unemployed in the parish. The first was raised about five years ago, and amounted to 100?. From twenty to thirty men were then out of employment for about six months. The greater nmnber of them were required to work in return for the relief afforded. On Mr Porteous' account of the re- lief fund raised in February 1842, being read over to him, witness states that he believes the amount to have been not 362Z. but 1507. The whole sum was expended in materials and in wages, and in the soup-kitchen, but 76Z. was got back for the value of the webs. As a third fund for the unemployed, part of that sum of 76Z. was laid out in finding work for, and giving relief to, the unemployed during the past winter. There have been perhaps about thirty able-bodied men relieved weekly during the past winter. No webs have been given out this winter. The rate of rehef, which has been mostly in provisions, was about two pecks of meal a week for a single individual, which cost about 2s. A man with a large family woidd receive from three to four pecks. He knew the case of every individual who received assist- ance. There are no persons now on the fund but three or four. The persons who received relief were generally of good character. Previous to five years ago, when the first assessment Mr W. Hood. Examinations. Kilmarnock. Mr W. Hood. a Mav 1843. 718 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE for able-bodied persons was laid on, he has been in the habit of giving occasional relief to able-bodied persons out of employment. He did so with the knowledge of the heritors, whose instructions to him were that he should never suffer any body to want. His accounts, as collector and session-clerk, are audited at the half-yearly meetings of the heritors and kirk- session, Thinks the aliment to the poor is not sufficient. Farm servants, when past work, who may not have saved, usually come upon the parish ; but there is not many of this class, and witness does not know cases of any such persons resorting to the towns. "With respect to his opinion that the aliment to the poor is insufficient, says that 2s. 6d. a week should be the smallest allowance to an old man unable to work, but not bed-ridden. The usual allowance to such persons in Ripcarton is Is. 8d. per week. Mr H. WUson. Hugh Wilson, Esq., one of the Magistrates of Kilmarnock, Depones : — Has been all his life In Kilmarnock, and had a share in the management of the fund lately raised in Kilmarnock for the relief of the imemployed. The first subscription was commenced in September 1841. Cannot say when the first subscription was closed. There was a second subscription which commenced in Apiil 1842, which continued for many months, but cannot say how long. The smn raised by both was 430^. Both were distri- buted among the unemployed, prmcipally consisting of men. There was a committee of the unemployed, who distributed to the unemployed 90Z., in small sums varying fi-om 6d. to 2s. 6d., according to the number in the families. Could not furnish an account of the weekly or monthly numbers, as no regular account was kept. Some weeks they would be upwards of 100. There was no work given in return. There was lOZ. distributed in meal. This was done before work was found, afterwards they were emjiloyed in road making, draining, and trenching, and webs were got for those who were weavers. There were from 100 to 150 employed in outdoor labour. 1000/. was borrowed for the pm-pose of making webs, and there were nearly 200 weavers sometimes employed. This can scarcely be said to have yet been brought to a close. There are some webs not yet brought in, but no new ones have been given out for six weeks or two months. Those who had the webs might average from 4s. to 4s. 6d. a week. Stone breaking and trenching was restricted to Is. a day. They were obliged to work the whole day to get their shilling. The work was superintended. As an inducement to the road trustees to employ the imemployed, a sum of money was paid to them. No money was advanced to the private gentlemen who gave emplo3Tnent. Some of the workmen were weavers and printers. Does not think that the road trustees gained by the bargain. When weavers are out of employment owing to a depression of trade, it is thought here a good system to give them webs. No better is known. It is the easy way of getting rid of them, although It may be said to be increasing the evil. It would be much better if they could be employed In Improving the land. Webs were never given when labour could be found. If stones had been purchased with the lOOOZ., it would have turned out an unprofitable speculation. There were already stones In hand which could not be got rid of. 250Z. have also been expended on soup-kitchens. Cannot state the numbers receiv- ing soup from the soup-kitchens. The soup-kitchen was given up in March 1842, partly from want of funds, but principally from the proper class of poor not applying for it : the respectable class of working poor would not apply for it, and it was therefore given up. Has known numerous persons of respectable character and provident habits being out of employ- ment, — ^they were thankful for the relief afforded them. The greatest allowance given was at one time 3s. or 3s. 6d. a week for an individual. There was 3d. a day allowed for each dependant besides. That did not continue long. Has not known Instances of persons of previously respectable character who have sunk into a lower state In consequence of the late depression. When a person applied for assistance, he was obliged to find a certificate from some respectable person In his neighbourhood, that he was industrious and out of employ- ment. If not satisfactory, personal inquiry was made. Considers that the work given was a sufficient test of destitution. Three years' residence was the rule. Is one of the managers of the poor. Approves of the present system. Should say the present allowances are scarcely adequate. He thinks that If more was allowed, there would be more ap])llcant8, and the assessment would have to be increased. If the assessment were increased, there would be a difficulty in levying It from the small rate-payers who pay Is. a half year. If those persons were exempted, does not see that there %vould be any difficulty in raising the funds, although there would be great complaints. Does not know of any Indi- vidual cases In Avhich parties have come to Ivilmarnock for the sake of acquiring a settle- ment. Approves of the present mode of raising the assessment. Thinks the present mode of raising the assessment Is eqxiitable. It is laid on by committees on different quarters, and they know the circumstances of individuals pretty well. He prefers the present mode to an assessment on rental. The number of individuals comprising the monthly committee meetings is about thirty, — three for each district, and there are ten districts. At the monthly meetings, the district applications are judged of by the general meeting. The elders may all attend, but cannot say that the elders are included in the thirty. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 719 LETTER from Hugh Wilson, Esq., one of the Magistrates of Kilmarnock. Kilmarnock, 11th May 1843. Gentlemen, — Regarding the appointment of the committee for the management of the poor in this parish, I have to state, that at the statutory meetings there are three stentmas- ters appointed for each of the ten quarters of the town ; and it is always imderstood that they are also members of the monthly committee for the management of the poor, and also in the quarter in which they reside. The kirk-session are always members ea; officio, as it is from it that the right of nomination of the members of committee proceed. I am, &c. HUGH WILSON. To Mr Smythe, Secretary, Poor Law Commission. Examinations. Kilmarnock. Mr H. Wilson. 11 May 1843. EDINBUKGH. — [second examination.] Saturday, 20th May 1843. Edinbcrsh. 20 May 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. Lord Viscount Melville, Lord Belhaven, James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., Edward Twisleton, Esq., and Rev. James Robertson. LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE IN THE CHAIR. Hev. Thomas Barclay, Lerwick, Examined : — 12.326. (Mr Twisleton^ — You are minister of Lerwick? — Yes. 12.327. How long have you been in that parish ? — Since 1827. 12.328. What funds have you for the maintenance of the poor? — No ftmds but those that arise from the ordinary collections, and mortcloth dues, which are the only ftmds we depend upoti. 12.329. What may be the average amount of these ? — ^As nearly as I recollect, 100/. a year ; however, in regard to these questions, I would refer to the returns I made to the crown agent some time ago. If I saw my return to Mr Sands, I could answer the questions with precision. 12.330. The return you made to the crown agent was correct ? — Yes ; I verify the return. 12.331. The management of the poor is entirely in the kirk-session ? — Yes, but subject to the control of a meeting of the heritors, called every year to audit the accounts. 12.332. What is the allowance to the poor on the roll ? — It varies from Is. to 28. 6d. a month ; but it is necessary to explain one circumstance in regard to the maximum : when a widow and family receive aliment, only one name is put down ; but there may be five or six Individuals who, under this one name, are legally entitled to support ; so that the 2s. 6d. appears as if it were given to one person, when perhaps it is given to five or six. 12.333. Have they any allowance for rent besides ? — None. 12.334. They cannot live on that allowance, — how then are they supported ? — Chiefly by begging. It is impossible that this trifling allowance can support them; and they are mostly supported by begging. The Satm-day of every week is a general begging day amongst at least two-thirds on the roll. 12.335. That is allowed ? — Yes, and it is carried on especially by the younger branches of the families. All attempts to prevent street begging have become ineflTectual ; and the de- moralizing effects of it are deeply deplored by all. 12.336. You are quite aware that a demoralizing effect is thus produced? — I am perfectly aware of it. 12.337. You think it destroys habits of industry ? — Yes, and lowers them in their own esti- mation, in their moral feelings, and, in fact, in every respect degrades them in their own eyes. 12.338. It gives them an inclination for a wandering and precarious life ? — Yes, and in many cases ultimately leads them to theftuous habits. 12.339. Do any others beg there who belong to other parishes ? — Occasionally there are other beggars from the adjoining country parishes. 12.340. Do the persons in your own parish beg on any day but Saturday ? — ^Many of them do ; and strangers beg every day they happen to be in town ; but the number of strange beggars is not great. 12.341. What is the general state of the working classes, — are they in a poor condition ? Rev. T. Barclay. 720 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaiiiiiiatiuns. KniNBUBQU. Kev. T. Barclay. 20 Mav 1843.' -Not to a great extent ; there are — Yes, especially within the last few years, since the fisheries have failed ; the crops, too, have been short. 12.342. How are the working classes with you chiefly employed? — In fishing. 12.343. Can you inform us nearly what may be the average wages of a working man per week ? — That depends on the success he has in fishing. They are not hired to fish, but are themselves o^Tiers of the boats in which they fish ; and their profits depend on the catch of fish. 12.344. ^Vliat may be the earning of a day labourer ? — About Is. a day in siunmer, and lOd. in winter. 12.345. Are any employed in manufactures ? — None whatever. 12.346. Is there any employment for single M'omen ? — Very little, except knitting hose and shawls. 12.347. Can you inform us Avhat money they may make by the day in knitting? — A woman expert in fabricating hose cannot earn ever more than 3d. a day; whereas in knitting shawls, which have of late come into vogue in the higher walks of hfe, if expert in the work, she may earn sometimes 2s. 6d. in a day. 12.348. Is the knitting of shawls carried on to a great extent ? — To a great extent of late years. 12.349. Where do they find a market for them ? — In London, Edinburgh, Paris, Brussels. 12.350. With respect to able-bodied women, is there facility for their obtaining employ- ment ? — There is hardly any employment but what I have referred to. In spring they may be employed occasionally in agricultiu-al pursuits. They are generally occupied in knitting, which is the only thing that can be called a manufacture in the island. 12.351. Do you give relief to able-bodied single women, or vridows with one child ? — Oc- casionally to widows with one cliild ; but not to able-bodied women, unless they are pre- vented by sickness from doing anything ; in such a case we give temporary relief. 12.352. Have you had many able-bodied men out of employment? — Yes, during the last twelve months especially. 12.353. During the period of the year that they are in employment, do they earn suffi- cient to maintain themselves throughout the year ? — Yes ; if they are provident, they may get through the year. 12.354. Is there begging among able-bodied persons ?- only one or two of that description. 12.355. Are these persons of idle habits ?— Of course. 12.356. They are not driven to beg from not finding employment ? — ^Whether they could get it or not, they plead the want of it, and betake themselves to begging. 12.357. From your observations, do you think the plea a good one? — In some cases, I dare say, it is. There are many persons out of employment who do not beg. There are many heads of famihes who do not beg, though they are worse off than the street beggars. 12.358. Have many emigrated from your parish? — Not many. Most of the men who leave Shetland go to the sea-ports to find employment as sailors, but few have emigrated to the colonies. 12.359. Do many come to Edinburgh? — Some go to Leith, Aberdeen, London, Liver- pool, and to aU the principal sea-ports. 12.360. The parish of Lerwick is rather in different circumstances, in regard to the ques- tion under investigation, than any other parish in Shetland?— It is the only town in Shetland, and, consequently, it is liable to an influx of that class of persons that are likely soon to become paupers. The period fixed for the industrial residence of an individual to entitle them to aliment, is so short, that Lerwick comes to bear the burden for almost all the Shetland islands. The moment a man sees that his circumstances are depressed, and that he is not likely to keep up an establishment in the country, he comes to Lerwick, and subsists for three years without aid, then he is entitled to come on the poor's roll. 12.361. Have you known instances of persons coming to Lerwick to get a settlement ? — They have come under the circumstances I have described. 12.362. Is it the practice in Lerwick to quarter any of the poor on particidar houses ? — Not in Lerwick. I recollect when there was no other mode of providing for them but by quartering them ; but even in country parishes this practice has worn out. It is miknown in Lervrick. 12.363. What is the inducement for poor people to come to Lerwick? — Because there is a larger provision there for the poor, — larger than that granted in country parishes. 12,3(54, Have you any lunatics on the poor's roll ? — We have two fatuous persons. 12.365. {Mr Camj}bell.) — How are they taken care of? — By their relatives ; and they receive the small aliment that I have stated monthly. 12.366. {Mr Iwisleton.) — How are orphans taken care of? — The persons nearest in kin to them take charge of them, and receive the allowance that would be given to the mother, were she alive. 12.367. Is their education looked after? — Yes, they have all free admission to the parish school. 18.368. Did you prepare the return to the General Assembly a few years ago, in relation to the poor, in 1839 ? — I do not know. Many returns have been made. 12.369. The last return was in 1839 ? — I have no particular recollection of that return ; but, as a matter of course, I must have made the return, ,12,370. I presume you are in the habit of visiting other parishes in Shetland ? — Yes. • 12,371. In regard to what you have obaerved of the condition of the poor in other POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOE SCOTLAND. 721 parishes, how do they manage to get on ? — The number on the roll is small, and the allow- ance is small, certainly. They are more looked after by their neighbours in other parishes than they can be in Lerwick. 12.372. On the whole, they are better oflP than the poor in Lerwick? — They are much better oflP. 12.373. ^VTiy, then, do they go to Lerwick? — It is difficult to assign the reason of an- other person's conduct; but I'know the fact. A man in the country must pay rent for his house and farm — in Lerwick he can take a room, and a whole family may live in a small apartment. Are there day labourers in the country ? — No, each family does its own labour The land is broken down into small portions of three, four, or five acres. Do you find the poor kind to each other in the rural parishes ?— Occasionally 12,374. Do the poor live with their relations a good deal ?■ Do they not do so in Lorwiok ? — .The feelin IS —-They do. not so strong there as in the Examinations. ED1NBUB6H. Rev. T. Barclay. 20 May 1843. generally. 12,375. they are. 12,376. 12,377. country. 12.378. Are there resident proprietors in Lerwick ?— They are almost all resident. 12.379. Do they help the poor? — ^^Vory extensively. Our small fund has been frequently totally exhausted, and we have had occasion to apply to the heritors ; and on such occasions they have made an advance of 501. to enable us to go on. 12.380. As one of the means by which the poor live, in addition to the allowance which you give them, and begging, you mention private charity from the rich ? — Yos ; and many people do not wait on their being solicited for charity, but send it to the poor. 12.381. But is not private charity given to individuals Avho do not beg at all? — In many instances it is. In general there is the strongest disposition on the part of the householders and the heritors to do all in their power to relieve. 12.382. Has a man in Lerwick more opportunities of getting occasional employment than in the country ?— He has, in various ways, — employment in a boat, or in jobbing, for instance. 12.383. Supposing it were proper to have a legal assessment in the town of Lerwick, is the portion of the population large that could bear an assessment that would maintain the poor ? — The pressure, I believe, would be less felt in Lerwick imder an assessment than it is at present, providing that the assessment were general, and that the rural parishes were subject to it as "well as Lerwick. 12.384. Do you mean that the pressure would become less ? — I do not mean to say that the call in many cases for private charity would become less. There would be many who could have no title to avail themselves of the provision that might be contemplated for the poor under assessment, would stiU have a call on private benevolence. Many who. receive aid at present, although they had a larger allowance, woidd be more comfortably provided for under an assessment. The number of poor in Lerwick would be greatly diminished ; and the pressure would not be greater on householders, and heritors would not be greater than at present. 12.385. How ? — Because the inducement of coming into Lerwick would be done away with. They would have the same provision in the country which they would liave by coming to Lerwick. Although no rate is levied, the poor know that there is an equivalent ; for, when- ever the fund is exhausted the heritors grant aid. If a rate were levied in rural as well as in town parishes, and if the period by which a residence is acquired were lengthened, the pres- sure would be taken greatly off the town, and spread more equally over the rural districts. 12.386. Seeing that the poor are better off in rural disti'iots now than they are in Lerwick, do you think that the chief inducement they have to come to Lerwick is to come on the poor's fund or to get casual employment ? — The strong motive is to get employment. The country paupers are better off, for one reason, because their numbers are few, comparatively speaking. 12.387. Are there any charitable institutions in Lerwick? — None. 12.388. Is the number of resident heritors greater in Lerwick in proportion, than in the neighbouring parishes ? — Much greater. I may mention that the influx of poor from other parishes is ascertained by reference to the poor's roll, which shows that few on the roU are natives of Lerwick. 12.389. From what you have observed, have you reason to believe that it is desired that there should be an assessment ?— I beUeve that the majority of the heritors are not indisposed to an assessment ; — formerly they were, however, very hostile to it. I am sure that the majority of the heritors are favourable to it now. 12.390. On the ground that they would not have to give so much in charity to the begging poor? — On various grounds. The legal support of the poor would be equally spread, according to the means of the parties. The greatest burden lies on those who are not so well able to bear it as others on whom it does not fall. 12.391. And it would check those wandering, demoralizing habits that begging produce in the young? — Yes, 12.392. {Mr Campbell.) — "Why do not the heritors lay on assessments? — That has often been talked of; but what deters them from laying on assessments is the present state of matters in Shetland. There being none in the neighbouring parishes, an assessment in Lerwick would make paupers flock to it. 4Z 722 MmUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEX BEFORE THE Exnminations. E dinburg h. Het), Peter Petrie, Kivkv,&\\, Examinei:— Bpt. P. Petiie. ,aaaa 20 May IB43. 12,39* \Mr Z«^i«Zeto?i.)— Yoli are minister of the parish of Kirkwall ? — Yes. 12,394v How long have you been so? — I was translated from Leith chapel to Kirkwall In 1831. 12.395. Have you furnished answers to the circular queries sent to you from the C(»n- toiission ? — No, the queries are to be answered by the session-clerk, Mr Logan. 12.396. You have been in the habit of ^-islting the houses of the jioor, and ascertaining their condition ? — Yes. 12.397. Will you state the allowance to an old man past work? — ^Mr Logan can answer that ; I cannot do it decidedly ; but I tliink about Is. 6d. the quarter. 12.398. How much to a M'ldow with a small family? — I think to a person of that de- scription, 5s. the quarter ; but cannot state it distinctly. 12.399. Do you think that is sufficient for her to live on ? — .By no means. Our funds are exceedingly scanty. 12.400. How do the poor on the roll, then, manage to get on ?— They ai'e assisted much by tlie poor people around them ; and many of them beg. Some of them visit the neigh- bouring parishes. 12.401. Are there any fixed days on which they are allowed to beg?— No; any day they please. 12.402. Could you give a general idea of the number of the beggars? — AYe have about 90 paupers on our roll. The number varies from 70 to 110, or thereby; about 90 on an average. The sum distributed to them is not 100/. annually ; perhaps not much more than 50/. ; biit I consider these answers as merely an approximation. 12.403. Do widows with children beg? — Many of them wash clothes, or take outdoor labour — field labour. Some of them plait straw. 12.404. What might a woman earn by straw-plaiting? — It is now greatly less than it used to be. Formerly it would have brought them perhaps 4s. 6d. a week ; now they cannot earn by it 2s. 6d. a week. 12.405. Do women generally find difficulty in obtaining employment ? — Very often ; and more so now than before, in consequence of the straw-plaiting being greatly discontinued. The profits are now much limited, and many of them are out of employment and reduced to. gi-eat indigence. 12.406. How do widows Avith children, who receive no more than Ss. a quarter^ live when they are out of employment ? — Sometimes they have friends who give them as much as they can spare ; sometimes the children are taken off" their hands. Supposing a widow were left, for Instance, with six children, she may get two or three of them taken off her hand ; and her employment In washing or straw-plaiting may be sufiicient for the wants of herself and the rest of the children, A^-ith the little allowance we can make them. 12.407. ^AHiat is their general food? — MDk, potatoes, fish; the last is very common food with them, — the silex, or coal-fish, which they call podlies. As they advance in size they are called seths. Herrings are also a common article of food, and cod. 12.408. How are the orphans provided for ? — There is no separate provision for them, — they are In the same situation Avith other poor children. The kirk-session always distribute according to their means, and according to the views they take of the respective poverty of the parties. 12.409. In the case of an orphan, do the kirk-session not think it their duty to, take charge of the child?— There has been no distinct mode of management whatever. The house in which the parent may have died, takes charge of the chUd for the time being, and the kirk-, session make an allowance. The orphan is in general pretty well supplied, 12.410. What allowance would you make for an orphan in such circmnstances? — Perhaps Is. a week. 12.411. Which is given to the person with whom the child boards? — Yes. 12.412. Are there lunatics in Kirkwall ? — Several. There are instances In which they have been sent out of the parish, and subscrijitions raised for them ; but never at the expense of^ the kirk-session. There is no assessment in the parish. 12.413. Do the fimds arise from parish door collections ? — Not exclusively; they arise also from seat rents, and jiartly also from the rent of land. 12.414. What do you pay for boarding out lunatics? — ^I do not tlunk that tliat ever fell imder our cognizance. 12.415. You do not make an allowance for them ? — No, Ave haA'c Avished to avoid that, as it Avould exhaust all oiu- funds. Such cases are dealt Avith by subscription. I believe they are generally sent out of the county. 12.416. Do you send them to a lunatic asylum? — Yes. 12.417. How many have you so sent ? — I cannot say. One Avas sent recently, not by the kirk-session, but by the county or toAvn council, I do not knoAv Avhich. 12.418. You made up a return, AvhIch you sent to Mr Sands ? — Yes, a joint return, I think. 12.419. Is that return correct, to the best of your knoAA-ledge? — Yes. If it was a joint return, my name Avill be at it ; but if it is not a joint return, I cannot speak to its accuracy. 12.420. Are there resident heritors in Kirkwall ? — Most of them are resident. 12.421. Arc they in the habit of assisting people from their private sources? — They are. 12.422. Independently of the collections at the church doors and other means ? — Yes, a good many of them. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLANlr. 723 12.423. Do the relations assist each other ?— A good deal. 12.424. Do the poor help each other much? — They do, very considerably. 12,42.5. Are the people generally of provident habits? — On the whole they are ; bot there are many exceptions. 12,420. Are their facilities for children obtaining education? — Very considerable facilities. We have a grammar school for the advantage of those in poor circumstances. We have an institvition in connexion with the society for propagating cliristian knowledge, and a consi- derable number of schools besides by adventurers, — those who take up schools on chance. 12.427. Do the greater number of children read and write? — ^All the children, even of six years of age, can read. I may mention that Kirkwall comes up to the maximum in educa- tion over the kingdom. ^ 12.428. Are there any able-bodied men out of employment in Kirkwall ? — Even at this season many more are complaining of want of employment than at any former period that I have known, although, of late years, there have been complaints more or less. One reason for these complaints of late years is, that many of the small farmers and cottars in neigh- bouring parishes were employed in the kelp trade, and when it failed, they came to Kirkwall in quest of employment. At all events they get houses more easily in Kirkwall ; and in con- sequence of this, Kirkwall became supplied with a greater number of laboiu-ers than its wants required. 12.429. Is it common for paupers to be quartered on the inhabitants of Kirkwall? — It is not common. 12.430. Are you acquainted with the neighbouring rural parishes ? — Yes. 12.431. Is that practice common in the neighbouring parishes? — I do not know any instances of it. The poor have almost always fixed residences. 12.432. (Mr Campbell.) — Do any of the poor people live by turns amongst the farmers, one week with one, and another week with another ?^They may do so,- — they may go from parish to parish ; — just as a matter of kindness the farmer allows them the bam or the kitchen for a night or two. 12.433. But do the poor of your own parish dwell a week with one farmer, and another week with another ? — I do not think it. 12.434. (Lord Melville.) — Does anything suggest itself to you in regard to the object of our inquiry ? — I am not aware of anything, excepting the statement, generally, that our parochial funds in Kirkwall are not nearly adequate for the wants of the poor. The defi- ciency fs great. I should say that the pressure on the poor's funds was never equal to what it is just now. If the population were to be united in endowed churches, then the parochial fimds might be nearly equal to meet the wants of the i)oor ; but the dissenting bodies are not obliged to assist the poor connected with them, and their collections and contributions are withdrawn from the Established church, and devoted to their own purposes, and, of course, there is a considerable number of jjoor that nobody cares for but the parochial kirk-session. Now, the funds at our disposal are not nearly adequate for the necessities of the poor. 12.435. Would you recommend levying an assessment ?— I am not disjwsed to it, if it could be avoided ; but I cannot help thinking that it cannot be avoided for any length erf time. 12.436. Would you have it by law, or leave the heritors to impose it when they thought fit ? — The general feeling, I think, woidd be to leave it to the heritors ; but I would not be inclined to it, unless it were legally imposed. 12.437. (Mr Campbell.) — Do you think that, if they were to impose an assessment, they would be entitled legally to do so ?— I do not know. 12.438. (Mr Twideton.) — You would leave it optional to them ? — It may be necessary for them to do it ; but they have always hitherto staved off an assessment. 12.439. (Lord Melnlle.) — In the event of an assessment being laid on, you would contem- plate its being also laid on the adjoining parishes ? — Yes. 12.440. Do you find the period of industrial residence too short ? — We have not heen much in the habit of having causes brought before us, requiring us to come to a judgment on that point. We have found that the poor in the parish have been supphed as soon as possible ; we have treated them kindly even before obtaining a residence, as tar as our funds woidd allow us ; but I think the poor law of Scotland wise, on the whole. Had the popula- tion been united in one denomination, there would be no necessity for a change in the poor law of Scotland ; but I have little doubt that, owing to the change tliat has taken place, and the changes likely to take place, an assessment wiU be rendered necessary. Exaiiiiiiatioiis. JiDlNBBRUU. Kev. Peter Petrie. 20 M.ay 1843. Bev. Zachaini M. Hamilton, Bressay, Shetland, Examined : — 12.441. (Mr Caniphell.) — You arc minister of Bressay in Shetland? — Yes. 12.442. How long have you been so? — Ten years nearly. 12.443. Were there queries sent to you by the government, to wliich you sent answers to Mr Sands ? — Yes, I remember having answered them. 12.444. Were the answers you then made con-ect, according to the best of your know- ledge ? — Yes. 12.445. What fimds have you for the poor? — The church door collections, and a small mortification. 12,44(5. What is the annual amount of these ? — I should fancy from 28?. to 30?. 12,447. What is the largest allowance given to an individual on the poor's roll? — On the permanent roll, about 18s. yearly. Rev. Z. Hamilton. 724: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvEN BEFOKE THE Examinations. 12,448. Do you also give occasional relief? — Yea, but it is not mucli called for. E dinbpro h. 12,449. Do you give relief to a widow with one child ? — Not usually ; but, when neces- Rev. Z. Hamilton, sary, we do. _ 20 May 1843. 12,450. What relief would you give in such a case ? — That would depend on the situation of the person. 12.451. Sujjpose the person had no other means of subsistence ?-^Generally we purchase for her half a boll of meal, and, of course, watch her necessities. If notliing occur by which she may be able to do something for herself, we may set about a voluntary subscription for her. 12.452. What provision would you make to a widow with four or five children under ten years of age ? — Wc would make provision for her in so far as her necessities required ; but I have not met, in my experience, a case where such necessity arose. 12.453. Is there any town or large village in the parish ? — Not in the parish. 12.454. How much is the utmost you have given to a widow with children? — I am not aware of our having had a widow with children on our list. I am not aware of any appli- cation from a person in that situation being made. 12.455. Have you any old, decayed, impotent old men on your roll ? — Yes. 12,45G. What allowance may they get in the course of a twelvemonth? — 10s., I think. 12.457. That being a sum on which it is Impossible that they can subsist, how are they supported ? — By their neighboui-s. Their neighbours conceive it incumbent on them to share their meal and their fish with their poorer neighbours. Unless it were from these supplies, it would be impossible for them to subsist. 12.458. Are we to understand that any supply from the parish funds is so inadequate as scarcely to form an item in their means of subsistence ? — Clearly, while, at the same time, I conceive that the contributions from their neighbours are fully calculated on. All that is allowed by the session is generally spent on a httle of the luxuries of life, wlule the necessaries are supplied by their neighbours. 12.459. Do you think that the poor of the parish are sufficiently supported by their neigh- bours. Independently of the supply from the poor's funds ? — Certainly ; I am not aware of a single case where there is much suffering in consequence of poverty. 12,4G0. What employment ha-\'e the laboiu-ing classes in your parish? — Many of them are fishermen ; their families are generally enqjloyed in working their httle farms, while the men are engaged in fishing. The women are sometimes employed In knitting. 12.461. Do their occupations afford sufficient employment to both sexes ?— No, they have spare time. 12.462. Do they make enough of money when at laboin- to support themselves when they are not at labour ? — Yes, I think they do. The men also who are not employed in fishing go to sea for a few months, and they are enabled to make as much as pay their rents, and they have abundance of fish, and the produce of their farms. 12.463. Has there been much distress there of late years ? — Some years ago there was a great deal of distress indeed. 12.464. What period ?— During 1835, 1836, and 1837. 12.465. What did the distress arise from ? — A failure of the crops and the fishing. 12.466. How was the distress relieved? — By public subscriptions, not in the islands, but in London, Edinburgh, &c. 12.467. In ordinary times, do the labouring classes live in a state of comfort ? — They are much more comfortable than in almost any other part of Scotland. 12.468. Are you acquainted with the state of the poor in other parishes ? — Not f)articu- larly — merely from report. 11.469. Do you consider that an assessment for the poor is at all requhed in your parish, or desirable ? — It is neither required nor desirable. I know the character of the people inti- mately — of every individual ; and it appears to me that there are several now who are support- ing their families tolerably well, who, were there an assessment, M'ould be on the poor's fund. 12.470. {Mr Twideton.) — Do you mean able-bodied persons ? — Yes. 12.471. Would they be entitled to rehef if there was an assessment ? — Yes, as they might make it appear that they could not obtain employment. 12.472. {Air Campbell^ — But my question refers to impotent persons ? — It would altogether check the piivate benevolence of their neighbours, which I think would be of more value to them than the support which they would receive from pecuniary allowance. It woxdd not compensate for tliis loss. I confine my remark entirely to my own parish. I know that in the neighbouring vUlage of Lerwick there has been great destitution indeed, in consequence of so many resorting to it in reduced circumstances, and in consequence of their neighbours not being able to supply the wants of the poor so easily, and at so smsdl a cost as in the country. 12.473. How does a widow with children get on? — If she is left in the possession of a small farm, she has generally a considerable stock on it ; and if her children are very young, she has generally a brother or some friend to manage for her. 12.474. Have the labouring population generally small farms ? — Almost all of them, with very few exceptions. 12.475. How many day labourers are there? — There are none professionally so. They are all day labourers together. 12.476. But are there any who depend merely on their labour ? — Not one in the parish. 12.477. Is it common for the proprietors to allow a widow to retain the farm?— Almost invariably. Widows are anxious to retain the farms, and the heritors allow it. I do not know an instance in my parish where a farm was taken from a widow if she wished to retain it. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 725 12.478. (Mr Campbell.) — Have they any leases ? — No. 12.479. (Lord Melville.) — Are there many heritors in the parish ? — Just one— Bressay com- prehends the whole island. 12.480. Have you anything farther to suggest ? — I am not aware of anything. 12.481. (Mr Campbell.) — Have you any lunatics in the parish? — We have one idiot. 12.482. How is he taken care of? — He is not so bad — he can wander from house to house ; and he is exceedingly well supported. The allowance that his friends have from the session is sufficient to provide him with clothes. 12.483. How are orphans taken care of? — Generally by their friends. _ Of course they do not spontaneously step forward and take charge of them ; but the session interferes, and throuo-h their influence they are generally attended to by their friends. 12 484. Is it common for paupers to Jje quartered on the parish? — I believe it was so formerly ; but it is not so now. I believe it is a plan pursued in many parts of Scotland ; but it has not been the case in Bressay since I went to it. 12.485. Are the means of education ample ? — Very ample. We have a parochial school, and a school on the General Assembly's fund. Both teachers are bound to teach those gratis who are recommended to them by the session. 12.486. Is that education on a general footing ? — Yes. 12.487. Do you find a willingness in the people to emigrate ?— Yes, among the young. They go to sea frequently, and return after they have made a little cash. Examinations. Edinbukoh. Rev. Z. Hamilton. 20 May 1843. Monday, 22d May 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT. James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., and | Edward Twisleton, Esq. JAMES CAMPBELL OF CRAIGIE, ESQ., M.P., IN THE CHAIR. Rev. C. M'Kenzie, Shildag, Examined : — Rev, C. M'Kenzie. 22 May 1843. (Mr Campbell.)— You are minister of Shildag, in Ross-shire ? — Yes. In what presbytery ? — Lochcarron. How long have you been minister there ? — Eleven years in September. Have you made returns to the list of queries sent to you by the Commission ?- 12,488. 12,489. 12,490. 12,491. Yes. 12.492. What is the highest allowance to a pauper on the poor's roll? — The highest allowance we are enabled to give is 10s. In the year, and that is given only in one or two cases, 12.493. People cannot hve on that allowance ? — Oh, no ! impossible. 12.494. What Is your general allowance ? — 5s. and 6s. in the year. 12.495. Take a widow with four children under ten years of age, — how do they live? — It is not easy to teU that. They plant a few potatoes, and beg among the fishermen for herrings during the herring season. They live very scantily. 12.496. How do old men and old women past work live ? — Their friends generally sup- port them. 12.497. And do their friends assist the widows too ? — Generally they do. 12.498. Are widows with children ill off?" — Perhaps for the first three or four years, till tlie children are able to do something. 12.499. Wluit kind of employment do they find ? — No other employment but fishing, — that is the first employment they get. 12.500. At what age would a boy be of use at herring fishing? — ^I have known them go to the herring fishing at fifteen years of age, and that is young enough to take the fourth part of a boat. 12.501. How are the people chiefly employed, — are there any day labourers ? — No ; they are chiefly employed in fishing. They are idle two-thirds of the year. They are employed during the season of herring fishing, which is uncertain ; and a month or so in spring, with tlieir potatoes or little crop, and in harvest another month. It is melancholy to see how they pass the time. 12.502. Is there much begging in your parish ? — There is no begging, generally, by the people of the parish ; but plenty beggars from the low country. The poor people of the parish do not beg. There is nothing to get. 12.503. Do strangers get anything ? — Perhaps they extort a little if they come to my door, or others of a like condition. We cannot let them go after they have travelled a great way. 12.504. Have you orphan children in the parish?— I daresay there must be. 12.505. How are they taken care of? — By their friends. When they have no friends, they are sent off" to do something for themselves, — ^to take care of younger children, or herd, or something of that kind. 12.506. How are they paid when sent out to strangers? — No wages arc condescended upon ; they get their food, and generally their clothing. 726 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exauiinatiuns. Edinburgh. J{ev. a. M'Konzie. 22 Jlsy 1843. 12.507. How are the funds raised in the parish for the maintenance of the poor? — By collections. 12.508. Have you got hniatics in the parish? — Yes. 12.509. How are they taken care of? — By their friends. 12.510. T)o they get assistance from the parish funds? — Yes. 12.511. How much? — In proportion to what we receive; it ftray be Ss. in the year, but never so high as 10s. 12.512. Do you think it would be possible to raise an assessment in your parish for the maintenance of the poor ? — I have not tl»e least doubt of it. 12.513. (J/r Twideton?) — How many heritors are in the parish ? — Three. 12.514. Are they resident? — None of them. 12.515. Does that account for the smallness of the collections at the church doors ? — It certainly does ; we woidd exjiect more if the heritors Mere resident. Not a single gentle- man resides in the parish. 12.516. Have you shopkeepers of any wealth? — Not of wealth. 12.517. Have you a parish doctor? — No; there is hardly one within sixty or seventy miles of the coast. My brother, who had studied medicine, lived with me ; but he gave uj) practising in disgust, and did not remain, because he got nothing from it. 12.518. What becomes of able-bodied men who become sick ? — They are just left in the hands of providence. 12.519. Have you not some persons wiser than others in the village who give advice? — There may be ; I am generally consulted myself. 12.520. Have you any means of giving temporary aid to able-bodied men in sickness, or to any class of paupers ? — No. 12.521. Is the jiopulation very thinly scattered? — In some parts it is very thin, in others very crowded. 12.522. Would there be difficidty in your dispensing altogether with collections? — No difficulty at all. I daresay it wUl come to that. I have no doubt that in the course of this half year it will come to that. 12.523. Why? — Many of the clergy are leaving the church, and the collections their people make will not go to support the poor. 12.524. Are many persons in your parish in a state of great destitution? — Yes, some are wretchedly lU oft". 12.525. Persons who are proper objects of parochial relief? — Yes. Some have nothing but what they get going from door to door. 12.526. Are they aged and infirm? — Very aged. One man gets his breakfast and dinner eveiy day in my house. He was living the whole of last winter in a roofless house. 12.527. (^Mr Campbell.) — -There are in your parish impotent persons who are proper objects of parochial relief, and have a right to it, who go about begging, and without parochial relief? — There are not many ; but there are some. 12.528. Have any demands been made on the parish for assistance? — They get their share generally of what is going — 5s. or 6s. in the year, 12.529. Have they made any demand ? — No ; they know it is not to get. 12.530. Have not the ku-k-sessions a right to apply to the heritors ? — Yes ; but this is a thing not known in that part of the country. I never heard of such a thing, and I was born and bred in the Highlands. 12.531. Are the people of provident habits? — Not at all — the fishermen and sailors have nothing of that kind in their composition. 12.532. Does much intemperance exist among them? — No, excepting in chcAving tobacco ; they all smoke and chew tobacco. 12.533. There is a village in the parish ? — Yes ; I live in a fishing village, which has a popidation of about 160. There are a few good houses in it. 12.534. You state in your answers that you are inadequately supplied with the means of education ? — Yes. There is no school. The heritors do not give us accommodation, although we could get the salary. 12.535. Have the heritors been applied to to build a school? — Yes, repeatedly; and we have been reftised. We are in a most melancholy state for want of education. There are upwards of 2000 inhabitants in the parish, and there is not a single school. 12.536. Is it a parliamentary church? — Yes, Sliildag is a parliamentary parish, a part of the parish of Applecross. 12.537. Do you think the want of education prevents the yoimg people of Shildag from making their way in the world ?-^No question of that. 12.538. When a small crofter dies, is his widow allowed to keep the croft? — Generally. 12.539. Do labourers assist her with the work? — Very rarely. If her 0N\n children cannot assist her, she has to hire a servant in spring. 12.540. The custom of keeping them in the crofts may explain how widows and children get on without relief? — Yes. 12.541. In the class of widows and children, are the widows of fishermen included ?— All are fishermen — even tradesmen. 12.542. Most of the fishermen have small crofts? — Yes. 12.543. What are the average wages of fishermen? — From 3/. to 4/. for the season, when they have no share in the boat. 12.544. What is the season? — Sometimes from the beginning of Jime down to Clu-ist- mas ; sometimes from August to the end of July — very seldom so long as five months. to POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 727 Examinations. Rev. miUam Logie, Minister of Kkkwall, Examined :— E dinburg h. 1'2,545. (Mr Campbell.) — Yoti are parish minister of Kirkwall, in Orkney? — Yes. 22 May I84:t. 12.546. How many years have you been so ? — I entered in the year 1824 ; I was trans- lated then from Lady parish. I have been thirty-two years a minister of the church, and all the time in Orkney. 12.547. What is the amount of funds for the support of the poor? — The collections aver- age about 38/. or 39/. There are besides donations, and dues arising from marriages and burials. 12.548. What is the number of the poor ? — The average is eighty-one and a third, 12.549. What is the largest allowance ? — Including room rent, 1/. lOs. in the year. Some receive so small a sum as 2s. in the year, 12.550. What is the allowance to a widow with children ? — Perhaps 2s, 6d. per quarter. They have the means of subsistence very easily. A family may dine very easily on ^d., on & small kind of fish called the coal-fish. They are not to be got at all times ; but they are generally very abundant every year. The means of subsistence are cheaper tliere than in many parts of Scotland, 12.551. Have you any idea of the lowest sum on which an individual can subsist in Orkney ? — I am afraid I cannot state that correctly, 12.552. Say for a week ?— I cannot condescend on the sum ; the habits of the people arc so different, that I cannot hit on the exact sura. They have not much money in tlieir hands ; they often give their labour for food. 12.553. I speak of the amount in food ? — I should say about 2s. in the week, — I refer to the poorest class of people. The greater part on our roU have other means than what they get from the poor's fund, 12.554. What other means ? — They are employed as labourers. Women are employed in plaiting straw ; but that employment is reduced now, and considerable distress has prevailed in consequence. Since the new tariff, foreign plait has been introduced. 12.555. How are those supported who are sick, and bed-ridden ?— By private benevolence, — a great deal is done in that way. There is a destitute sick society in Kirkwall. There is also an estate which fell to the crown, as ultimus hwres, which yields more to the poor than the kirk-session funds. Many on the roll are able to work ; and there are certain kinds of easy labour. 12.556. Are there many orphans?— -I cannot mention the number; I am not aware that there are many who have lost both parents. 12.557. How are the oi'phans taken care of? — By subscriptions. The kirk-session make extVaordinary efforts, and sanction subscriptions to aid what they can give them. 12,558.. Have you lunatics ? — Yes ; I cannot say how many. 12.559. How are they taken care of? — We have a lunatic now in the jail. Occasionally there are a few who are dangerous, and are sent to jail ; but for the most part they are cared for by their friends. 12.560. Do they receive anything from the poor's fund? — One in particidar. She is a dangerous person, — she has often attacked children on the street. There is a great want of some provision for them. There may be half a dozen of them in tlie parish, but I cannot exactly say. They are chiefly supported by their friends. A great deal is done by private charity. 12.561. Then the poor are chiefly maintained by private charity? — Certainly. 12.562. Are they maintained in a state of comfort compared with the situation of an ordi- nary labourer ? — Yes. When destitution is known, it is looked after. The ladies have a clothing society. Some dissenters support their own poor at the same rate as is given by the kirk -session. 12.563. Do many strangers go to Kirkwall? — Yes, many come from the country to get their children in school, or to get on the destitute sick society, if they are infirm. 12.564. Is begging allowed ? — Yes. 12.565. Amongst your own parishioners ? — Yes. 12.566. Is there much begging by strangers ? — Yes, from all parts of Scotland — Glasgow, Perth, Paisley, and so forth, 12.567. Would it be expedient in your parish to introduce an assessment ? — ^I have a great aversion to a poor rate ; it would increase pauperism in our district at least. 12.568. Would it be easy to put down begging ?— A very moderate provision might have that effect, and may perhaps be necessary, the collections being so small ; but I am averse to the principle of a poor rate ; whether 1 am right or wrong, I cannot say. 12.569. You are averse to it on account of the effect it would likely produce on the poor? — ^Yes, from all I have read ; and I have read both sides of the question. There is great indolence amongst the people. You may see a dozen or two with their arms akimbo : ask them to work in a garden, for instance, they are very saucy about it, and charge very high. I fear a poor-rate would increase their aversion to labour. 12.570. {Mr Tiaisleton.) — You mean a poor-rate for the able-bodied ? — Yes, 12.571. But in regard to the impotent? — Certainly there shoidd be a provision for them. 12.572. When you speak of persons who go about idle, are they able-bodied men? — Yes: they are very greedy, and not very willing to work ; but there are many exceptions, 12.573. {Mr Campbell.) — Would you give relief to able-bodied men, tvhen out of employ- ment, from an assessment? — No. 12.574. AYould you give relief, from an assessment, to those who are infirm ? — ^From & 728 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Edinbusoh. Rev. W. Logie. 22 May 1843. charity. A great deal of charity prevails. An assessment would destroy private benevo- lence. Many would say, " You need not come to us, there is a provision made for you," That is one reason that I have an aversion to a poor-rate. 12.575. {Mr Twisleton.) — ^You have stated that a moderate provision would check begging? — Yes. If a moderate provision were made for them the authorities would be wilHng to put down begging. 12.576. Is there a parish doctor in Kirkwall ? — There are three doctors in Kirkwall. 12.577. Do the kirk-session pay any of them for attending the poor ? — No. 12.578. Is there any predion for medical relief for the poor? — None, excepting by the destitute sick society. 12.579. Do you give relief to able-bodied persons when siok? — Yes, when they have families. 12.580. In such cases are you in the habit of finding a doctor for them? — The doctors do a great deal gratis, 12.581. Would it be proper to give assistance to sick persons to prevent them falling on the poor's roU ? — Yes. A labourer, for instance, if laid up for a few weeks, would in conse- quence be in difficulty for years afterwards, if not assisted and kept up. 12.582. Are there any friendly societies? — There were; but they are in the act of break- ing up. They got wrong in their funds, by lending their money to improper parties. The industrious poor are very kind to their neighbours ; the poor relieve the poor. The indus- trious poor are very benevolent to those poorer than themselves. I do not think that there are many poor persons overlooked. Almost all respectable families have a certain number of pensioners who know their circumstances well. 12.583. {Mr Campbell.) — You were formerly in Lady parish ? — Yes. 12.584. What was the situation of the poor there ? — There were very few poor there when I was there ; and there are very few I believe now. 12.585. How are they maintained ? — The kirk-scssion fiinds are small, but every heritor gives a donation of 5^. There was no etxreme poverty when I was there. 12.586. You do not know its present state ? — Not particularly ; Mr SmelUe, assistant and successor to Mr Traill, could give you exact information. 12.587. Is education on a good footing in KirkwaU ? — On a very good footing. Mr D. Lindsay. Donald Lindsay, Esq., Accountant, Edinburgh, Examined :— 12.588. {Lord Melville.) — You are an accountant in Edinburgh? — Yes. 12.589. And you have had considerable charge of the estates of his gra«e the Duke of Argyle ? — I was trustee on the estates. 12.590. What length of time? — I was appointed at the close of 1837; and my trust ended with the late duke's death, on the 21st October 1839. 12.591. Had you occasion to visit that part of the country? — Yes, I visited Mull and Tyree. 12.592. Did you make much inquiry into the state of the poor? — -Yes. I had many representations made to me by the chamberlain. Colonel Donald Campbell. 12.593. Was your personal investigation confined to Mull and Tyree, or did it extend over the whole Argyle property ? — To Mull and Tyree especially. 12.594. Was it at the request of the late duke that you went there? — I went for the general purposes of the estate, not merely in regard to the state of the poor, 12.595. In regard to the poor on these islands, did you find them pretty much on the same footing? — In Tyree the destitution was very great during the time I was in the management, and in MuU also; but more particularly in Tyree. 12,.596. What was the general occupation of the people? — The greater portion had no occupation at all, since the manufacture of kelp was given up. 12.597. Had they any possessions in lands ? — A certain number of them. 12.598. In general you considered they were very ill oif in point of subsistence ? — I did at the time. Government was then giving them some aid in the way of emigration; and there was also a general subscription for their reUef, 12.599. There was no means of giving them parochial reUef ? — ^No, The duke was sole proprietor in the island of Tyree, 12.600. Is there more than one parish? — Tyree, and Coll, an adjoining island, form one parish. 12.601. Coll belongs to different proprietors? — ^Yes, 12.602. Have you reason to know whether they continue much in the same state? — I have had no personal management since the late duke's death; but I understand they con- tinue in much the same state. 12.603. Does it occur to you how that state of destitution might be relieved? — The only permanent relief, as it appears to me, would be by removing the surjilus population. The island does not afford the means of maintaining the existing population. 12.604. You conceive that anything like an assessment would fall too heavy on the duke ? — If the whole island were giyen to tliem, I do not think they would long subsist on it. 12.605. That state of things has only been going on since the manufacture of kelp was given up ? — Yes, while the manufacture of kelp was going on, the whole population were profitably employetl. 12.606. Do they engage in fishing? — No, various attempts were made to establish fisheries by the late family, but they failed. The people do not seem adapted for such employment. POOR LAW INQUIRY CO^CVIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 729 12,607, Did you draw up any report? — Yes, jn the way of endeavourfng to obtain some Examinations, agsistance for the destitution, and for the means of emigration, I have the draft of tliat Edin^oroh. report, dated November 1838. It contains all the information I have to give on the sub- jj^. jj Lin,isay. ject, and I believe it is correct. 22 May imi. 12,«5U8. Does it relate only to Tyree?— It relates svlso to the MuU estates, but principally to Tyree. 12.609. It relates only to the duke's property ? — Only. [See report appended to evidence,] I have also found a minute of a meeting of heritors, called to consider the destitute state of the people both of Mull and Tyree in February 1839. [See minute appended to evidence.] 12.610. What is the extent of Tyree? — -It contains about 4000 acres of arable land, be-, ejdps rocky pasture ground. 12.611. Have you had occasion to look into the return made to the General Assembly four years ago, of the state of the jjoor in Tyree and Coll ? — No. 12.612. You have stated that nothing occurs to you as to the means of affording permai nent relief to the destitute ?— Nothing but emigration. There are no means of employing the people unless they were to be occupied in fisheries. 12.613. Do you distinguish between those who are able to work, and those who are in^ capable ? — In fact, the destitution is from the want of work in Tyree. There is a population there of about 3000, who have cottages and patches of ground for which they pay no rent, Tliey had been employed formerly in making kelp ; and that employment being done away nith, they are left without work of any kind. The large proportion of them are capable of work. 12.614. Are the poor supported by the parish ?— There is no parochial assessment. The duke subscribed liberally for the support of the i)Oor. Those who have the means give to those who have not, so long as they have the means. They are very charitable and kind people. 12.615. Are they well educated ? — I do not think they are. There is a great want of schools. The parish is very long, and there is little communication between the two ends. 12.616. Do they speak English? — The women and children speak only Gaelic; the men, almost all, speak a little English. 12.617. {Mr Ticisleton.)— What is paid by an ordinary labourer for rent ? — The rents vary from 20/. and 30/., down to 21. and 3/., and even less. 12.618. Supposing an assessment levied according to the rent on houses, — how many ratCr f)ayers would there be above 6/. rent ? — I could ascertain that fi'om the rental ; but they )ear a very small 2)roportion indeed to the number of inhabitants. The papers are now out of my hands, 12.619. (Mr Campbell.) — You have stated that the inhabitants are incapable of carrying on fisheries ?— It would appear so from the failures that have taken place. 12.620. Is there good fishing ground in the neighbourhood?-—-! am informed that there is very good fishing ground. 12.621. Do you know if fishermen from Aberdeen go there ? — Yes, two boats crews go there from Aberdeen every year, and make a good thing of it. 12.622. Do you recollect of some of them being in danger in a small boat?— Yes. 12.623. Did the Tyree men relieve them? — No. 12.624. Who did so ? — Their own wives and daughters went out to their relief; 12.625. Do you know the origin of Tyree being divided into small proportions ? — It was in consequence of the duke's desire to provide for the discharged soldiers of the regiment he himself had raised. The late duke and his father adopted that systeip. Tyree was for- merly occupied by a few large farniers. 12.626. About what extent of land was originally given to those settlers? — They began originally with twenty or thirty acres. Subdivision has been going on, aud the common pize now is from three to four acres, and these may be divided again. 12.627. What proportion will a man's rental bear to his substance. Suppose he pays 6Z, a year of rent, wpat is likely tQ be his income ? — Probably he has a cow and a pony. The Vay in which the rent is paid in Tyree, is this :— Very little money passes through their hands. They raise barley ; and, previously to collecting the I'ents, the chamberlain fixes the price of barley, and it is delivered into the granaries of the prpprietop at the given price. 12.628. So that a man who pays 6/. of rent pays it to the chamberlain in barley ? — Yes, 12.629. What were the people living on when you were there? — I was there when the Jand appeared to the best advantage, in the early part of autumn. They were then living chiefly upon the potato crop. I may mention that information, probably more extended than I h£^ve to give, wquld be got from the i^resent chamberhiin, Mr John Stewart, REPORT. His Grace the Duke of Argyle is proprietor of the whole island of Tyree, and of a dis-r Xfict in the island of Mull, called the Ross of Mull. The surface of the ielapd of Tyr«e extends in all to about 11,000 acres, but of that .pumber there are not more than from three to four thousand acres of arable land, the re- mainder of the island consisting of rock, intermingled with pasture, and of large tracts .covered with shifting sand, which is yearly encroaching upon the arable and pasture ground. There is no wood upon the island, and peat, which is the only fuel used by the patjves, has been entirely exhausted. The inhabitants of this narrow territory consist of fibout 600 families, comprising not fewer than 5000 souls, Thjs dense population is re^ piarkable for their sober, quiet, and orderly habits, and for their strong feeling of loyalty ; a 5 A 730 MimiTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations, lai'ge proportion of the men having, during the war, been in the service of their country, Edinbcroh. botij i,j ^i,g army and navy. The island, with the exception of two or three farms, of Mr 1). Liudsay larger size, has for a long course of years been parcelled out into small crofts or holdings, 22 May I84S. Varying from about two to three acres. The breaking up of the larger farms which had formerly existed, was occasioned principally by the necessity of providing for men who Vvere disbanded after having served in regiments raised by the proprietor. Upon these small possessions, which are cultivated with great industry, there are, in favourable seasons, raised tolerable crops of barley and potatoes, although, from the nature of the soil, which is generally of a sandy quality, as well as from the total want of shelter, and the exposure to sand blowing, the crops are necessarily very precarious. In this way, however, a certain proportion of the inhabitants have in ordinary seasons the means of subsistence ; but there are not fewer than 400 families, comprising in all about 3000 souls, who have only patches of potato ground, which are allowed to them with their cottages free of rent, but which are quite inadequate to provide more than a few weeks' maintenance for the families. There is no employment to be found on the island for these cottagers, — the manufacture of kelp, which formerly enabled them to maintain their families, having now entirely failed. Every exertion has been made, and great expense incurred by the proprietor in endeavouring to establish and encourage the deep sea fishing of cod and ling, but unhappily without success. In these circumstances, the situation of the people is most deplorable. The potato crop of the present season has been nearly an entire failure ; and to add to their misery, a great many families are entirely without fuel. It is at all times a matter of great difficulty, and even danger, for them to procure that necessary article, which they have to bring from Mull in small boats, a distance of nearly thirty miles across a boisterous sea ; but the wet- ness of the present summer has prevented the peats from being dried, until the season was so far advanced as to render it impossible to transport them to Tyree, where there is no substitute to be found. The food of these people must, until the crop of next season is ready, consist principally of the precarious supply of fish which they may be enabled to catch in fine weather, and of the shell fish which they can pick up on the shores ; and even this last miserable resource has been nearly exhausted. This food is at all times unwhole- some, but it will probably be much more so than usual this season, from the inability of many to procure the means of cooking it. The district in Mull contains about 3000 inha- bitants, whose situation is very similar to that of the people in Tyree, with this exception, that their distress is not aggravated by the want of firing. From the detail which has been before given, it will be seen that whatever temporary assistance the proprietor may be enabled to give, it is only by removing the surplus popula- tion that the distress can be permanently relieved. The people are themselves most anxioua to go either to Australia or Canada, if they could obtain a settlement there ; and it may be asserted with confidence, that there is no class of her Majesty's subjects, who would be more useful as settlers in either of these colonies, than the honest, sober, intelligent, and loyal inhabitants of these islands ; but unless the aid of government is speedily given for the re- moval of a sufficient number, and some immediate supply of food provided, it is much to b& feared that many of them will perish of actual hunger, and many more of the diseases con- sequent upon the want of wholesome and sufficient food. In proof of the truth of this statement, it may be mentioned that even at this early period of the winter (November) the people have of themselves come to a general resolution to confine themselves to one meal in the twenty-four hours. A portion of the balance of the funds raised for the destitution in the Highlands last year, could not, it is thought, be more beneficially applied than in assist- ing to relieve the present urgent distress of these islanders. Edinburgh, 56, George Street, 2M May 1843. Sir, — With reference to my evidence given on the 20th instant before the Commis- eioners, I beg leave to state, that, as required by them, I have now examined the rental of the island of Tyrco, the property of His Grace the Duke of Argyll, for the period to which my evidence refers, and find, that of the individuals charged with rent to the proprietor^ there are, — - 249 Avhose rental is under £5, 104 whose rental is 5 and under £10. 37 10 15. 23 15 20. 9 20 25, 2 25 30. 2 30 40. X 50 loa 3 above 100 300, 430 in all, A great many individuals, but what precise number I do not know, possess cottages with email patches of ground, for which no rent is paid ; and I believe that many of the posses- sions which stand in the rental as one tenancy, are, in jioint of actual occupancy, subdivided, though without any express concurrence on the part of the landlord. I have the honour to be, sir, your most obedient servant, D. LINDSAY. William Sinythey Eaq^ Secretary, Poor Law Commission. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 731 12,630. 12,631. 12,632. Eev. Alexander Cameron, Kilchoman, Island of Islay, Examined : — (Lord Melville.) — You are minister of the parish of Kilchoman, in Islay ? — Yes. How long have you been so ? — Since 1824. What funds are there for the poor in your parish ? — The church collections ; and some small fees at marriages. 12.633. You have no assessment? — No. There are some small fees from mortcloth dues also. 12.634. What is the general amount of the church collections ? — I have here the return to this board, — it is here stated to be 17/., 4s. 3^d. last year. 12.635. Do you conceive that the allowance to the poor on your roll is adequate to their assistance ? — Yes, — we do not profess to support the poor, but to relieve them. 12.636. What other sources of income have they generally ? — The poor we have are chiefly old women, and they spin. 12.637. Those who are on the permanent roll ? — Yes. 12.638. Do they go about begging ? — In the parish they do ; but we do not allow them to go out of the parish. 12.639. Do their friends help them .' — They are chiefly supported by their relations. All the aid we give is merely to relieve them, and supply them with a few articles of clothing. They all sit rent free, and fuel is easily got. 12.640. (Mr Twisleton.) — What allowance do you give to an old man or woman ? — We do not give above 11. a year to any, except in cases of distress. Last year we only distributed 3/. 13s. 3d. among ail the poor. 12.641. Have they special days for begging ; or do they beg any day they please ? — Any day they choose. 12.642. (Lord Melville.) — Has the amount of the poor increased or decreased of late years ? — Decreased. 12.643. Did you prepare a return to the General Assembly on the subject of 'the poor ? —I think I did. 12.644. I observe in that return, that it is stated that the average amount for 1835, 1836, and 1837, to paupers on the permanent roll is 12^. ? — We have fewer poor now than we had then. 12.645. (Mr Twisleton^ — What is the cause of this falling off? — Old paupers died, and no others were in such circumstances as to be put on the permanent roll. 12.646. (Lord Melville.) — The amount of the funds is not adequate to maintain them with- out assistance from begging or other resources ? — By no means. 12.647. If they were prevented from begging, could they subsist on the amount of relief given to them ? — No, unless their relations would assist them. There is a great feeling of kindness in the relations of the poor towards them. 12.648. Has begging a demoralizing effect ? — I cannot answer that from my own obser- vation, the number of the poor being so small. A number of them have great reluctance to come on the poor's roll. In some cases, where poor persons have made application, I have found that a son, or daughter, or nephew, was ready to take charge of the decayed applicant. 12.649. Are all the poor natives of the parish ? — All are natives. 12.650. You have no stranger poor ? — Not one. 12.651. Do the inhabitants of your parish move to other parishes ? — No, except those who go to Renfrewshire or Lanarkshire as servants. The old people are very stationary. 12.652. The population is between 4000 and 5000 ? — Yes. There is a parliamentary parish, Portnahaven, in regard to which I have made no return. That parish takes charge of its own poor. 12.653. The population you have mentioned includes that parish? — Yes, there are about 1200 attached to the parliamentary parish. 12.654. Have you many heritors? — Three. 12.655. How many parishes are there in Islay ? — Three original, and three parliamentary parishes. 12.656. (Mr Twisleton.) — How many are allowed to beg, or do beg? — I think none are allowed to beg except those on the roll. I do not know that they all beg, but there is no restriction. I have not seen any of the occasional poor begging. Sometimes they come to me and state their wants ; but I do not think they go round the parish. We are in a very primitive state in regard to these things. The tenants lead home peats for the poor, and help to build small cots for them. 12.657. There is no great destitution in your parish ? — I do not consider that there is any great destitution. We have ample funds. Since December, when the severe weather came on, we gave a blanket to each of them. At the time of the cholera, we distributed a great deal of flannel and blankets, and food. When destitution existed in other parts of the Highlands, we did not require any funds. 12.658. Are any able-bodied persons out of employment? — No ; the heritors always find work for them. When any apply to me, I have only to apply to the factor. 12.659. What is the usual occupation of the people ? — Draining, ditching, and fencing. 12.660. Do they not employ themselves in fisheries? — No. They generally find employ- ment for themselves. When they do not find work at home, they engage as coast sailors. The artizans, such as shoemakers and tailors, are employed by the country people, and they are in constant employment. 12.661. Are you acquainted with other parishes in the island .' — Yes ; I know the parlia- mentary parish, Portnahaven. Examinations. Edinbuhoh. Mr \. ('.aiiieron. 22 M.iy 1U4X 732 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaiiiiiintion!!. ElllNBVKGll. Mr A. Cauieron. •2i Mav 1843. V 12.662. Is the condition of the people there pretty much in the same state as those in your parish? — Yes ; but they are not quite so well off just now as the people in my parish. We have funds in reserve that we can draw upon if we require to exceed our collections, and in that parish they have no fund. In the parish of Bowmore, they are worse off. A great many Irish people settle there. The clergyman is a very old man, and does not look much after the condition of the poor. The reason that we have so few paupers in our parish is, that we help the poor before they are reduced to the state of paupers. If they are trades-people, we find them work. All our paupers are decayed old people. 12.663. Is there much difference, in point of comfort, between the ordinary poor and labourers ? — No. If we were to exceed our distribution of 1/., we would probably bring a great many persons on the roll. The great difficulty is to draw a line — to keep the poor just a little below the condition of an ordinary workman — at least not to exceed it. 12.664. Have you any lunatics in the parish ? — There is one fatuous person ; his friends support him. 12.665. Have the paupers any ground attached to their huts ? — They have ; but they grow nothing but potatoes. They have no fancy for any other kind of vegetables. 12.666. How are orphans provided for? — We have no orphans. 12.667. In regard to widows with children — what do you allow to a widow, say with two children ? — We have one widow with two children ; we clothe the children, and pay for their education ; we do nothing else. This woman is not resident in our parish, she resides in Bowmore. The family went to Glasgow ; the husband died there, and she and the chil- dren returned. We considered it our duty to take care of the children after the death of her husband. She washes, and works otherwise in Bowmore. 12.668. In regard to those on the list, are widows with children allowed to remain in the houses theyhad during the husbands' life? — Yes. I do not know an instance to the contrary. We have one widow in pretty destitute circumstances. Her husband was principal drainer on the farm of Mr Campbell. She still occupies the house, and gets her fuel. She works in spring and harvest, and gets a good deal of assistance from her brother. 12,66y. When widows are left in that way, are their neighbours willing to help them ? — ■ Yes. They employ them when they have work to do, — they give them a preference. They employ them in outdoor work in spring. They are sometimes employed in spinning. 12.670. What is the general food? — Potatoes, sometimes oatmeal ; but many of them do not get oatmeal. 12.671. Have they milk ? — There are very few who have not a cow. They get plenty of fish. The husband has only to go to the rocks from seven to nine in the evening, or later, and he gets as many fish as keeps himself and family for a day or two. 12.672. Are the fish fit for salting ? — Yes. They are called cuddies, they become larger than an ordinary sized herring. They keep boats all along the coast. Potatoes, milk, and fish, are the principal articles of their food. 12.673. Does anything occur to you that you would wish to suggest in regard to an altera- tion in the poor laws for Scotland ? — ^Nothing occurs to me. I have had the management of the parish since 1824, and we have always kept the poor comfortable, in relation to the working classes, and we have accumulated funds besides. In other parishes I have been minister of, I found no difficulty either. 12.674. Then the population in the island of Islay is pretty well off? — They have not much money ; but none of them are destitute. Taking them as a whole, they are poor people, but they have all food and clothing in abundance. 12.675. They are not in so destitute a state as the poor in some other parts of the High- lands ? — No. The proprietor is very willing to grant assistance. Ten-twelfths of the island belong to a non-resident heritor ; but we do not require to apply to him. 12.676. Is there education for the children ? — The proprietor is very liberal in that way ; lie has granted accommodation for schools and schoolmasters. 12.677. Are the children all at school ? — From this time till October the schools are thinly attended, the children being employed in herding and making peats ; but from October till this time, I make a point to have them all sent to school. 12.678. Are they taught in English?— Yes. 12.679. Are they inclined to emigrate ?— During the last fourteen years many have gone to Canada. Every year a number go to Canada. Those who have gone send favourable accounts, and money to their relations to take them there. Rev. D. Macrae. Eev. D. Macrae, Poolewe, Examined : — 12.680. (Mr Twisleton.) — You are minister of the qzwad sacra parish of Poolewe ? — Yes, it is part of the parish of Gairloch in Ross-shire. It is a parliamentary parish. 12.681. Gairloch is between Shildag and Poolewe? — Yes. 12.682. Have you anything to do with the management of the poor? — Yes, I take charge of the money collected at the church doors. 12.683. How long have you been minister of Poolewe ? — Thirteen years this month. 12.684. What is your usual allowance for an old man past work ? — From 4s. to 8s. in the whole year. 12.685. And to a -widow with four children under ten years of age ? — Taking an average, we never give less than 48., and never more than 88. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOE SCOTLAND. 733 12.686. How then do old people and widows subsist? — By going about from door to door among the people collecting victuals. They get meal, or whatever is going. 12.687. Why do you not give more to the old people ? — Because we have it not to give. 12.688. Do you never apply to the heritors ? — I got 5^. from five hei-Itors, more as a vo- luntary contribution than assessment. It is a vciy rare thing to get that. I was put on the plan by the principal heritor. I wrote a circular asking a supply ; some of them complied at once ; they came aU at last to pay but one. 12.689. Have you ever had to pay for paupers belonging to your parish, who are in the southern parts of Scotland ? — We have never paid, but we have been some times applied to. I have generally reported such applications. How they manage the matter I cannot tell ; but our answer was that we had no funds. 12.690. Can you mention the place from which such applications were made ? — I remem- ber one last year from Dunoon, Argylesliire, for a young man who got into bad health. The answer was that his friends could not pay, and that we had no funds. I have heard no more about it. 12.691. In regard to the impotent and bed-rid, — how are they maintained? — Their neighbours are so exceedingly kind to them, that they visit them, and bring to them what- ever they have. The poor could not live without the kindness of their neighbours. 12.692. How docs a widow with a family get on? — If she be strong enough she goes in the harvest season to Mid-Lothian, or elsewhere, to harvest labour. Perhaps she brings home from 30s. to 40s. You have no idea how far this sum goes in the Highlands. 12.693. Suppose she has a young family ? — She leaves them among her friends, or in her own cottage, if one of tliem is able to take cliarge of the rest. 12.694. When the husband dies, is the widow allowed to keep the same piece of land? — - Generally. She is never turned out, if she can pay the rent. 12.695. And can a widow in good health generally manage to pay? — Yes, If there is any stock on the land. But generally they get poor, for their husbands made theu' rent by going to Caithness fishing. 12.696. How are orphans provided for ?— We have no funds for anything of the kind, — they go about and are supported by the people. 12.697. Without looking to the Idrk-sesslon ? — They get a share of the little we have. All our poor are on the permanent roll ; and generally the orphans are on the permanent roU, 12.698. Do you give relief to able-bodied jiersons in sickness ? — No. 12.699. Have you any doctor in the parish? — There is not one within sixty nulea of us. The nearest Is in Dingwall. 12.700. Have you lunatics in the parish ? — There were two, but they are now confined at Inverness at the expense of the heritors. 12.701. Would it be desirable to introduce an assessment on your parish ? — I do not see how they are to get on without it. The little we give them gets them perhaps a pair of shoes to go about with, and beg among their neighbours. 12.702. Suppose an assessment were introduced, — would It prevent the poor from helping the poor ? — I have no doubt it would have that effect in some degree. 12.703. And would prevent relations from helping each other? — Perhaps it might, — that is, if it were found that the poor were getting a suflSciency from the poor's funds. 12.704. Do you think if there were a moderate provision made for the old and impotent, it would be possible to prevent them begging in the parish ? — I should think it would be perfectly possible. 12.705. There Is not a very ample provision made for education in the parish? — ^It is very miserable indeed. 12.706. Do you think that if means were taken to diffuse education among the lower orders. It would tend to Improve their physical condition ? — Yes. 12.707. If all were taught to read English as well as Gaelic, they would be more able to get on In the world ? — Not the least doubt of it. The great difficulty now Is getting their way out. 12.708. What class of persons are the crofters? — Principally small cottars or crofters, and fishermen. 12.709. Do you never get assistance in fiinds from Galrloch ? — Never. 12.710. Have you anything to suggest in regard to the amendment of the poor laws ? — ^No. Examinations. Edinburbh. Kev. D. Macrae. 22 May 1843. Rev. Alexander Russell, Assistant, Galrloch, Examined: — 12.711. (Mr Twisleton.) — You are assistant minister at Galrloch? — Yes. 12.712. Where is it?— Between Poolewe and Shildag. 12.713. State what is the allowance in your parish to an old man or woman unable to work ? — That depends on the amount of collections received ; generally from 2s. 6d. to 5s. in the year. 12,7i4. To a widow with four children under ten years of age? — The very same, ex- cepting in some extreme cases. I do not remember it exceeding 5s., excepting in one or two cases. 12.715. What provision have you for orphans ? — If there are three, we give allowance to two. It depends on their age and ability to do anything for themselves. 12.716. Take the case of one child without father or mother, what provision would you allow ? — We have not such a case on our list. In saying so, I mean to say, that In such a Rer. A. Kussell. 734 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examination*, case the orplian lives with some near relatives, which we count the same as living with the Edinbubuh. parents. Bev. A. Russell. 12,717. You would make the same allowance to them ? — Yes, with the exception, that if •2i .May 1843. there were three of them, we generally give them the allowance of two. 12.718. What provision do you make for lunatics? — We have only one at present on our list ; and another who has been put on ; but who has received no allowance as yet. The lunatic on the roll just receives a regular share. 12.719. Do you pay any doctor to attend the poor when sick? — No. 12.720. Have you a doctor in the parish ? — No. The nearest physician is in Stornoway, and the next in Dingwall. Stornoway is a navigation of forty-five miles, and Dingwall is a journey of sixty. We generally call it sixty ; the distance is not measured. 12.721. How are the poor old people maintained? — By their neighbours. 12.722. Is there begging in your parish ? — There is abundance of begging, although not regular begging. The poor go among their immediate neighbours in harvest time, or in wool clipping time, and get from them what they can spare ; but when they beg in a more fublic manner, they prefer going to a distance, and taking begging certificates with them, t is not so respectable with them to beg in a public manner as in a private manner. They consider it no disgrace to beg in a private manner ; because there are parties who, though in respectable circumstances comparatively, having no land, go about and get a sheaf of corn, or a basketful of potatoes, from their neighbours who have them. But the poor in general wait till the fishing boats come ashore ; and they are very often liberally supplied with fish. The poor with us are very liberally supplied by the poor ; and the really poor generally place most reliance on the poor. 12.723. How do widows with children subsist? — They wait at the shore when the boats come in with fish, and they are supplied. Then they go about in harvest time with baskets, and get a few potatoes when they are raised ; and occasionally, they get a sheaf of corn from the cottars. At clipping season they get a handful or two of wool. There are one or two families of means, who give a little beef or mutton to some of the poor in whom they are most interested. This is the only way in which, so far as I am aware of, they subsist. 12.724. Are they allowed to keep the crofts that belonged to their husbands ? — That de- pends on their ability to pay the rent. 12.725. {Mr Campbell.) — Do the crofters hold in lease, or are they tenants at will ? — There are leases, but they may be called tenants at will. Clauses are introduced, wliich, if not fulfilled, the tenants forfeit their claims. The breaking of these clauses has been so general, that Sir Francis Mackenzie published a document, saying that he would grant leases on different terms. Each and all broke their leases, not being able to fulfil those clauses. 12.726. What is the condition of the labouring classes in your own parish ? — The poor in my parish live, as I said, principally on potatoes and fish, and occasionally a little meal ; the better class also live on potatoes and fish, and consume, as I have been told, at the rate of a boll of meal every three weeks, — that is a respectable family among the cottars, pro- viding they have the means of buying it. Also, they have their milk from their own cows, — perhaps a family may have two cows. Milk is a great matter there, seeing that there is little animal food made u.se of. They generally have a few fowls, and they get eggs ; and at Christmas time they generally kill a sheep or goat. There are few or no day labourers among us, except those who are servants, and I exclude them. 12.727. How many may there be in the family of the man which consumes a boll of meal every three weeks ? — In one particular family which I have in view, there are two stout working men, besides, perhaps, three children. 12.728. Any servants besides ? — I cannot say. People in such circumstances generally have a servant ; but I cannot say that the family to which I allude have a servant. Gene- rally such persons have a servant, — particularly when the mother is nursing, to do the out- door work ; for they carry their fuel from a great distance. Perhaps they go two times in the day to the hill for peats, travelling for their burdens a half or three quarters of a mile at each time, and in some cases a mile and a half. Whole villages have to travel in this way. As they carry the fuel on their backs, they require to go oftener than once, generally twice, and sometimes three times a day. 12.729. (Mr Twislfton.) — What is the lowest sum an old man can live upon in the week in your parish ? — I shall state the price of provisions. A herring barrel of potatoes costs 2s. 6d., — I cannot say how long that would last an individual, but they live generally abstemiously ; a stone of meal costs 2s. 6d. — 17^ lbs , — it is sufficient to maintain a working man a whole week without any other provision. We generally calculate by that as our standard. A boll of meal costs generally 11. — it is cheaper now, but that is the average, and each boll will last a working man eight weeks. 12.730. Do they take milk with that ? — If they have a cow. 12.731. Do many of them live on meal without milk ? — The manner of living is not the same the whole year over. The meal is principally consumed in the summer season, from spring till next crop of potatoes is raised. In winter they live pretty well, — those who have land, because they have potatoes. I may state that an ordinary sized lot of land is suffi- cient to maintain them for three quarters of a year, without being obliged to purchase meal. 12.732. What is the size of an ordinary lot of land ? — I never saw it measured ; but in my own mind, I generally reckoned it from two to three acres. I never heard the size stated, although I reckoned it at that. 12.733. Is it common for them to keep cows ? — All those who have land do so if they POOR LAW INQUIRY COMinSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 735 can. If any accident befal their cattle, or if they have none, they generally get cows from other people to graze. In a piece of land from twenty to thirty acres, the arable land is divided between the tenants equally, and the pasture ground is in common, and a limited number of cows is placed by each on the pasture ground. If a man from poverty is unable to place the number of cattle that he is entitled to place on that ground, he contrives to get a cow for a neighbour to graze, and he gets a consideration for that. 12.734. Have most of the labouring classes a bit of land in the parish ? — I can state to foil what I have been told, that in some villages there are more without land than with it. cannot, however, fix upon any particular village as a standard to judge by ; because there are several fiirms in the interior where the poor have been dispossessed of their land, and driven to the sea coast. All of them have crowded to some peculiar locality where they have greater access to fish, or other subsistence. Some of the townships are crowded with poor people who have been dispossessed of their land. Dr M'Kenzie, our factor, has been making a survey of the parish, and has been making minute inquiry into every circumstance. He will be able to give you a particular account ; I speak merely in a vague and general manner. 12.735. Are many able-bodied men out of employment in your parish 1 — Generally speak- ing, I cannot say that there is any employment for any man — I mean, a man for hire. There is no stated employment. Employment there is very uncertain. There is no manufacturing, no quarrying, or anything of that kind, and no regular fishery. Every man fishes on his own account. Any employment that there is, is as a servant or an apprentice, and the number that obtain employment in this way is so very small that they form an exception. 12,73(). When poor people fall sick, do you provide them with a doctor? — No ; I provide them with medicine at my own expense, and 1 have attended them, I may state that last winter, or the winter before last, I forget how many patients I had charge of at one time. 1 think about seventeen ; but that was an unusual occurrence. 12.737. Have you ever studied medicine 1 — I attended a few lectures on anatomy, that is all. 12.738. Is it common for the poor to vaccinate their children ? — I vaccinate them. 12.739. Do you find them willing to bring their children to be vaccinated ? — Yes. 12.740. Have all the children been vaccinated ? — I cannot presume to say ; I had a good deal of employment in that way a year or two ago, when a case of small-pox took place, and that alarmed the people. Mr Frazer, the schoolmaster, vaccinates ; sometimes also he attends the sick people ; but I am looked up to as their physician. 12.741. Do you know if the children in the neighbouring parishes are vaccinated .'' — I sup- pose so. The distance that I have to traverse is so very great, that it is sufficient for me. I have to go a distance of thirty miles in length ; I cannot state the breadth of it, for it is irregular. Our parishes are so large that we cannot even know our own parish sufficiently. 12.742. Have you ever applied to the heritors for an increase of allowances to the poor?— No, I have not done so ; but the minister of Poolewe has done so, the heritors being the same. We allowed him to have the preference, because when any of our heritors happen to visit Gairloch they generally attend the church at Gairloch, being nearer to the seat of Sir Francis Mackenzie ; and if any extraordinary collection takes place, we generally have the chance of getting it. I may also state that our weekly collections seldom give more than Is. or sometimes 6d. in silver ; the rest of the contributions are all in coppers. 12.743. It appears that the means of education are inadequate ? — Yes. 12.744. Does that prevent the youth from seizing opportunities of rising? — I should think so. I may observe that those who are able to read and write prosper, and rise higher in the world, than those who have not that education. 12.745. Do you think the absence of English instruction a reason for their not getting on ? — I do consider it a great impediment. It acts as an impediment in more ways than one. They have no energy to push their way beyond the particular sphere in which they have lived ; they have not such a stimulus to exertion as is to be found in those who have education. 12.746. Have any attempts been made to increase the provision for education in Gairloch ? —Yes. 12.747. Owingto whatisit thatthe attempts have been unsuccessful? — We depended upon the Gaelic school society, and the society for propagating christian knowledge, and sent to them. The answer was, that they had no teachers to send. Exnminationff. Edinbiboh. Rev. A. KusspII: 22 Mav 1841'. John Bowie, Esq., W.S., Examined :- Mr John Bowie. 12.748. {Mr Campbell.) — You have been much connected with the Highlands of Scot- land ? — Yes, for many years jiast, professionally, and principally in the management of the extensive estates in Skye, and in North Uist, belonging to Lord M'Donald. 12.749. You were examined before the emigration committee in the House of Commons? —Yes. 12.750. You said that the great cause of the destitution there arose from the want of employment, few of the inhabitants being then employed in the making of kelp ? — Yes. 12.751. Are you still of opinion that much of the destitution that prevails may be traced to that cause ? — Yes. 736 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exuminations. 12,752. You stated that It would be difficult to relieve that distress without removing Edinburou. some of the population to other countries ? — Yos. Mr John Bowie 12,753. You stated that you did not think that the distress would be relieved by assess- 22 May 1843, tuent under the existing poor law? — Certtvinly not, having in view the peculiar state of the country. 12.754. And having in view that state, you do not think that an assessment would be applicable to it ? — No. 12.755. Do you adhere to that ?— rrYes. 12.756. Have you had any farther experience of the me^ns resorted to in the Highlands for relieving destitution ? — Yes. 12.757. What has that experience been ? — The opinion which I gave before the emigra- tion committee, in the House of Commons, remains unaltered. Long prior to that period, and since, I have been directing my attention in regard to the estates I have alluded to, and principally with a view to emigration. During the last few years we have successfully carried on emigration from these estates to a greater extent than, I believe, from any other estates in the Highlands. Anticipating the possibility of being asked such a question, I looked at some of my papers, and I now hold in my hand an abstract, showing the number of people who have emigrated fi'om these estates, during the years 1839, 1840, 1841, and 1842. 12.758. Be kind enough to give us the numbers ? — I find that during those years, the emigrants of the poorest description that left Lord M'Donald's Skye estate, were to the amount of 2186 souls ; and the emigrants who have left his estate in North Uist, were to the amount of 1064. So, during those four years we have successfully and comfortably removed, without pressure or force, or coaxing, 3250 people. 12.759. At whose expense have they been removed ? — In answering this question, it is necessary that I go a little back. You may recollect that in 1837, I took, in conjunction with Dr Macleod and Mr Charles Baird of Glasgow, an active part in relieving the destitution in the Highlands and Islands. We succeeded beyond our most sanguine expectations, having realized, by subscription, upwards of 100,000/. ; and .at the same time, we were so fortunate as to induce the government to entertain our proposal to aid in emigration. On that occasion, I found Lord Glenelg, then secretary at the Colonial Office, most kind, and anxious to meet our views. This I believe in some degree owing to the feeling then existing in Scotland in regard to the ship John BaiTy, as to which there had been a misgiving, and his lordship was afraid that, as a clamour had been raised in regard to it, there would be difficulty to induce emigrants to go out in any number. His lordship received most readily a pro- position I made to him, and appointed an agent to come to Scotland to conduct emigration to Australia. It went on successfully for a number of years ; but now it is given up. The government had borne the whole expense of this emigration, which was great. When we found the assistance of government was no longer available, we set to work to i-aise money, But the great assistance we received in the shape of fiinds, was from the money subsci'ibed for the relief of the destitution. It is proper, however, that I distinctly state, that in pleadipg, as we did, in behalf of our suffering countrymen, we held out that if any surplus remained after supplying the existing demands on us because of destitution, such surplus would be devoted to emigration ; because, if we dealt out the surplus in small sums, it would tend more to injury, than those who are unacquainted with the Highlands can understand. This statement having been made to the committees in Edinburgh and Glasgow, who had the charge of this fund, the committees received the same favourably. I was requested by my brethren of the committee to make out an estimate, showing what sum per head could be allowed to each party emigrating. I made up such a list, and, contrasting it with the sum in hand, I found there would be an amount of 10s. a head, available for every indir vidual, including women and children, who chose to emigrate, Following up this view, the committee issued a circular, addressed to all Highland proprietors, intimating that they (the committee,) were willing to advance to this extent, provided the proprietors advanced an equal sum. On this circular being issued, I closed with the committee on the part of Lord M'Donakl, and, with the view of dividing this great boon over the country at large, I gave in the number to emigrate from Lord M'Donald's estate at only ^600 ; for if I had given in the whole number who were likely to emigrate, I would have swamped the other proprietors. The committee closed with me, and set apart 1300/. ; this money to be paid as soon as I produced certificates from the parish minister and elders that the parties had actually sailed, and had drawn an equal amount from Lard M'Donald. The committees paid on this prin-i ciple, and Lord M'Donald paid the same, and a great deal more ; and in many instances, wliere the parties were deep in arrears, the whole arrears were passed from, and the emigrants were allowed to leave the country free and unfettered from any claim Lord M'Donald might, have against them. I cannot speak to the amount of arrears passed froni, They wpre not, I believe, in one sense great. Though 3250 left the estates, not forty of these were on hia lordship's rent roll, or paid him any rent whatever. They were principally what may be termed squatters — the poorest of the poor. T^Py had erected boothies, and by the kindness of the tenants were allowed to plant for themselves a few pptatpes. 12.760. Do you think that the sum of 1/. was sufficient to enable them to emigrate ? — No, I do not think it is sufficient, but from my own experience, I found that one way or another, the parties who were desirous to emigrate, did find the ways and means to raise the differ-, once, either from money which they had saved and put past, or by contributions from their more opulent brethren. In connexion with this, I niay mcuition, that some years ago, an extensive IJighland prpprietor stated to me that he had offered to the tenantry on hia estates to the amount of 4/, per he^d, provided they wQuld emigrate ; bu$ th^t to hi* amaae» POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 737 ment, he found none inclined to go. I took leave to caution this proprietor, and to urge on him the propriety of withdrawing the offer he had made, on the ground that it was by far too liberal ; and I then explained to him that the best mode of proceeding was to convince the intending emigrants that it was more for their own interest, than the interest of the proprietor, that they shoidd emigrate ; and this point gained, he M'oiJd find little difficulty in inducing them to emigrate. In farther illustration of ray views, I stated that Dr Macleod of Glasgow, with whom for years I had worked in this great cause, had taken the same view of the matter that I had done, and on his own responsibility, and very much at his own expense, commenced the publication of a little Gaelic journal, intended to diffuse through the Higlilands information in regard to the colonies, and the advantages of emigra- tion. I have regularly distributed copies of this publication among the people with whom I am connected. I have also at different times sent them information fi-om my- self, though not in Gaelic ; and by tliese means the people on the estates referred to, are now fully alive to the importance and advantages of emigration ; and so far are they from feelino- disinclination, there is, on the contrary, an anxious desire to emigrate ; and our "•reat difficulty is only as to the means. I may farther mention, that the desire to emigrate has been greatly increased from the circumstance of the very favourable accounts which have been sent home to the country from parties ^^ho emigrated some years ago. I have known cases where the emigrants have written home, strongly urging all their friends to leave destitute Skye, and join them in Australia. I may also state that a deputation from Cape Breton returned to the Long Island, with the view of urging their friends to follow them ; and in consequence, several hundreds have gone out. During my experience, I have as yet met with no complaint on the part of any emigrant because he had left the Highlands. On the contrary, I haA'c received several most grateful letters from emigrants, thanking mc for having induced them to take the step they did. 12.761. Be good enough to state the places to which the emigrants have gone ? — Between 500 and 600 have gone to Australia, and the others have gone principally to Cape Breton. 12.762. Have they succeeded equally well in both places ? — Yes, in both places. 12.763. Do you find that the best educated are the most willing to emigrate? — Yes. 12.764. Do you find that they are the most successful ? — -Decidedly ; and, in consequence, the greatest possible attention is paid to education. Only two days ago, I received an application from the schoolmaster of the Assembly's school in North Uist, to say that several scholars were desirous to have enlarged views of geography, but that he had not a globe which he wished to have, — a globe was sent to him. 12.765. la there sufficient education In Skye ? — With reference to the localities, I may say there is. We have a parish school in each parish, and we have Assembly's schools planted over the whole district. 12.766. Did you get assistance from any other quarter except from the London and Glas- gow committees, and government ? — With reference to the calls made on account of the destitution we did, and largely from India and the West Indies. There was first remitted the sum of 2800/. This amount was remitted to Dr Macleod and myself, with instructions that we were to dispose of it in such a way as we thought most beneficial for the High- landers ; and as the destitution was then happily at an end, Dr Macleod and I came to the conclusion that the above sum could not be better apjjlled than in the cause of education ; and accordingly he and I appeared at the bar of the General Assembly, and there publicly handed over the above sum to be specially invested, and kept as a capital sura under the denomination of " the East and West Indian Fund," the interest to be applied in promoting education in the Highlands. Thereafter, a farther sum of 500/. was received from the same quarter, and applied in like manner. 12.767. These sums are now applied to the Assembly's schools in the Highlands? — Yes. 12.768. Can you state how the General Assembly's schools are instituted in the High- a,nds, and on what terms and conditions? — The schools are under the management of a 'special committee of the General Assembly, which sits regularly in Edinburgh, and is aided by a regularly appointed secretary. Once a year there are collections at all the church doors throughout Scotland, in support of those schools ; and these collections, added to the interest of the invested money left for the benefit of the schools, enables the committee to pay the salaries of the different teachers. But before a teacher is planted in any district I. of the Highlands, the proprietor of the district has to come under an engagement to furnish school-house, a dwelling-house for the teacher, also ground for a garden, and grass for a ^cow ; and the people of the district are engaged to find the schoolmaster in fuel. The salary of the schoolmaster is paid by the committee. 12.769. Have you any difficidty in finding accommodation for the schoolmasters of the ' Assembly's schools in that part of the Highlands to which you refer ? — No difficulty ; because every proprietor must consider the appointment of such a schoolmaster a great boon to his estate. 12.770. Have you taken means to employ people in the Highlands in labour at home? — Yes ; finding a stop, in a great measure, to emigration, I comraenced a correspondence with the factors in Skye and North Uist ; and after fidl consultation with these gentlemen, a resolution was come to, that it was indispensably necessary to direct the attention of the people to an immediate improvement of the soil. The experiment commenced last year in Skye, in a district close to the residence of the local factor. The district I refer to lies on the sea coast. There are fifteen crofters upon what, in one sense, may be called a small farm, but, in the low country, a very large farm. These crofters have been there all then- life, as the predecessors of many of them had been before them. When they were settled there, they imdertook each to pav a rent, say of 2/. For this they have a small piece of arable land adjoln- 5 B Examinations. EuiNBirKiiH. Mr John Bowie. 22 MaT lt!43. -738 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN I5EF0RE THE ExaminationB. ing their house?. Immediately behind their houses there was marked off to each ten acre?, KDiMiVMiH. intended for cultivation, and behind this a large hill, held in common, to which each tenant Mr j„ii,i Bowie, '"ig'it drive his cow or two for pasture. Those people have been there for the last thirty 22 May 1(143. years, but, till last year, they did little or nothing in the way of un proving their possessions. The factor took the matter up warmly, and told the peojjle that they nmst either improve -or move. The answer was, " Show us the way, and we will do it." In consequence, the factor engaged a person at the expense of the proprietor, whose sole occupation is to attend to those people, and point out to them how to proceed in cultivation, in draining, and enclos- ing. Happening to visit Skye last sunnner, a few months after the improvements com- menced, 1 heard some of the poor people who held this land say, " that it would have been well for them if they had been forced to do this twenty years ago." The fiiteen crofters have each enclosed their crofts, and they are actively engaged in draining. The factor was with me last week, and he stated that each of them had already drained, on an avei-age, more than an acre, — that the ground formerly was as bare as this table, but now that each of those acres will ]>roduce this year eighty barrels of potatoes, the value of each of which cannot be stated at less tlian 2s. 6d. ; therefore we have from each of those crofts a retiu-n of 10/., and that from land which fomierly yielded nothing. Those fifteen crofters will now draw 150/., the value of potatoes from land which did not foi-merly yield a farthing. The outlay cannot have been great, because the whole labour has been done by themselves ; and the only actual expense they are at is the price of a small quantity of manure. The factor is in the meantime confining his experiment to this one spot. The people are, in some instances, difficult to manage, and we wish to show them the results of this improvement before we force it over the rest of the estate. Many of the people already see what has been done, and the factor reports that there is a great desire all over the estate to commence and do in like manner. I am satisfied that a small expenditure on the part of the pro])rietor will enable the people to bring land into cultivation, which will yield them food to an amount that I do not like to name, but certainly double what it has been. It would go beyond the means of any great proprietor in the Highlands to undertake, at his own cost, such extensive improvements, but by inducing the people to labour in the way I have explained, and which costs them nothing, the whole arable ground would be brought into a state of cultivation. Then comes the point, when is there to be an increase of rent ? That is not yet fixed. The object Ave have m view is to give to those crofters a tenure certain for so many years, tell- ing them, " You must go on improving — you shall sit at the same rent, say 21. for five or seven years, or till you have drawn more than will compensate you for all your labour, and not till then is any inci'ease of rent to be exacted." This is now under consideration ; and I hope, before the end of this summer, it will be adjusted to the entire satisfaction of the people. 12.771. You have no doubt that this wUl improve the condition of the people? — No doubt whatever, seeing the increased quantity of food which will be raised. 12.772. That will put an end to a great part of that poverty which exists ? — Yes ; but with all these improvements, we shall still have a redundant popidation, — we must get quit of thousands of them. I take the range of the island of Skye, and the Long Island, com- mencing at Lewis on the north, and tenninatiug at Barra on the south. By looking at the census returns, as appearing in the Edinburgh almanack, the population of those districts is close on to G0,000. The land rental may be stated at 42,000/. in round numbers, which gives a return of 14s. a head for eveiy person on the soil. 12.773. You have no experience of the ordinaiy administration of the poor's funds in Scotland ? — No. My attention has been principally devoted to the Highlands, where the poor are managed differently from what they are in the low country, 12.774. {Ml- Twiftleton.) — In the emigration from Skye, did old people go with them? — Old and young. I have seen three generations go out in one family, — gnuidfather and grandmother, pai'cnts and children. 12.775. Was the distress in 1837 gi-eater than it had been, owing to the young alone having gone out in previous emigrations ? — No ; there was no work to give the people, and there was a failure in two crops following each other. Last year, on Lord M'Donald's estate of North Uist, we manufactured to the amount of 900 tons of kelp. The expense of manufacturing, and freight to market, came to about 3/. the ton. Liverpool formerly was the principal market for it ; but I grieve to say that all the kelp sent last year to Liverpool brought only 33s. a ton ; therefore the manufacturer was a loser to the amount of 27s. a ton. In place of manufacturing kelp this year to the extent of 900 tons, I do not think we shall manufacture more than 400 ; therefore the people will this year be dejirived of the manufiic- turing of 500 tons of kelp, which would have returned to them about 1000/. Therefore it is that I recommend giving up the kelp manufacture, and attending to the improvement of the soil. 12,77G. When you visited in the Highlands, have you observed much begging? — Yes: there is a good deal of begging. They do not often apply to you on the highways ; but you see poor people, going about quietly for the purpose of receiving assistance. 12.777. You object to an assessment for the able-bodied poor, without reference to the impotent? — Quite correct. 12.778. Would you object to an assessment for the impotent? — No. 12.779. Your objection is to an assessment fi)r the able-bodied ? — Yes, and having in view the very peculiar condition of the country. In times of distress, all come forANard in aiding their poorer brethren, to a greater extent than is done whci-e there is an assessment, and, in my oj^inion, to a greater extent than an assessment would produce. 12.780. If a provision of this kind were made, it might absorb the rental? — Yes, in many instances it would ; so that the proprietors might at once give up the soil. But if govern- nient would assist to get quit of the surplus population, then lay on what poor law you please. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 739 12.781. But at present you would object to a poor law for the able-bodied ?— Yes. 12.782. Do you object at any time to an assessment for tiie able-bodied ?— Yes ; and I •would be sorry tbat there should be any assessment till we get rid of the surplus population. 12.783. Is the population in Skye increasing, notwithstanding the emigration that has taken place from it ? — In answer I have to state, that from the census of 1831, as taken from tlie Edinburgh almanack, it appears that the population then was 23,800 ; while the popida- tion from the census 1841 is 24,010, which shows the increase for the last ten years to be 2 10. But in referring chiefly to those districts where Lord M'Donald is sole proprietor, I find that there is a decrease ; and having in view the extent to which emigration has been carried on from his lordship's properties, 1 can only account for the increase from the cir- eurastance, that some of the other proprietors in Skye have not been so zealous in forwarding emigration as Lord M'Donald has been. 12.784. What is the decrease on Lord M'Donald's estates? — It'is difficult to find it out; for in some of the parishes he is only part i)roprletor : but I find in one parish where he is 8(4le proprietor, where the population in 1831 was 2957, in the year 1841 it was 2704, show- iwr a decrease of 253. In another parish, where tiie population in 1831 was 3487, I find that in 1841 it was 3173, showing a decrease of 314. 12.785. Are you aware of anytliing particidar in the population of Skye, that should make the remarks applicable to tliera inapplicable to other parts ? — -No ; they are as sober and honest a set of people as ever I met with, — anxious and willing to work, if employment could only be found for them. 12.786. Are they more energetic than others ? — I cannot say that they are. They are, in this respect, just like the people in all other parts of the Highlands. Examinations. Ebinburoh. Mr John Bowie. 22 Mivv ims. Robert Stevenson, Esq., Civil-Engineer, Examined : — 12.787. (Mr Campbell.) — You are a civil-engineer? — Yes. 12.788. Have you had considerable acquaintance with the Highlands ? — I have been very much on the coast, but not much in the interior. 12.789. Have you had opportunities of becoming acquainted with the condition of the people on the coast ? — I ^m afraid but very little. I collected a good deal of information and sent it to Dr Alison two or three years since. 12.790. Was it acquired by yourself? — No. Dr Alison circulated queries, and the in- formation I collected was in answer to those queries. 12.791. You are not personally acquainted with the management of the poor? — No. I have been much in the Highlands, but always in my official capacity, and living in a vessel. 12.792. {Mr Twisleton.) — Have you formed any views on the poor laws which you may desire to communicate to us ? — I am well aware that the poor are very scantily provided tor ; but I do not know that I have any precise information to give on the subject, 12.793. Have you any suggestions to make ? — No. Any information that I have col- lected in the course of my voyages round the coast I have given to Dr Alison. 12.794. And that is merely in answer to the queries circulated ? — Yes. Mr R, Stevenson. Sir Charles Gordon, Secretary of the Highland Society, Examined : — 12,795. {Mr Campbell.) — You are secretary to the Highland and Agricultural Society of Scotland ? — Yes. 12,790. And you are otherwise connected with the Highlands ? — I have a small estate in the parish of Morven. 12.797. That is in the north-west of Argyleshire ? — Yes, opposite to Tobermory, — opposite to the island of Mull. 12.798. Do you take charge of the management of the poor there as an heritor.' — Not a great deal farther than joining in any voluntary contributions by the heritors. 12.799. There is no regular assessment ? — No. 12.800. When greater aid is required than what is drawn at the church doors, the heri- tors contribute ? — Yes, last year farther aid was required, and it will be required every year, owing to the very few resident heritors. Last year the heritors had a meeting, and those present agreed to a voluntary assessment. Some of the absent, as I was informed, demur- red to pay. 12.801. Seeing this, do you think it woidd be better to introduce a legal assessment, or continue a voluntary assessment? — 1 should say that if, in the case of a voluntary assess- ment, those absent, having got proper notice, should decline to pay their proportion, the power of enforcing a legal assessment would be expedient. 12.802. You are aware that the heritors have the power of enforcing a legal assessment ? —Yes. 12.803. Do you think a legal assessment is apt to hurt that spirit of independence which exists still in Scotland among the poor? — Decidedly. 12.804. On that account you would say that it would be advisable to avoid it? — Yes. 12.805. What is the state of the poor in your parish compared with that of the working classes ? — If I compare the situation of a pauper with that of a labouring man in the parish of Morven, it is undoubtedly inferior, inasmuch as the poor cannot always have their meals Sir C. Gordon. 740 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE f;sani!nations. KniNRUKGH. Sir C. Gordon. 2-2 .May 1843. SO regularly, from the positive want of the means of subsistence, as those employed in labour, meaning farm servants, and agricultural labourers. 12,80fi. We are to understand that there is considerable destitution among those getting parish relief ? — Certainly. 12.807. What is the lowest allowance made? — I cannot tell, — I never attended to the details of the distribution. 12.808. Have you knowledge of the state of the poor in the adjoining pari.shes ? — In the parish of Morven, the state of the poor, I believe, is better than in some of the adjoining parishes. 12.809. Are you aware that in some of the parishes in the Highlands, there is no relief but from the church collections ? — -I have heard so. 12.810. Is there a great want of employment for the able-bodied in your own district ? — I would make reference to my own immediate neighbourhood ; there they have been pretty well employed for some time. I was there about ten days ago, and found all on my own property very comfortable and happy. They are employed in making roads, and improving moss. I do not venture to speak in regard to other places. 12.811. Your avocations in Edinburgh do not lead you to be a great deal in the High- lands ?— Only for a few months in the year. 12.812. Have you anything to suggest about the poor, — do you find, for instance, that in Edinburgh, there is any preference shown to the poor of the Established church, over those belonging to your persuasion ? — I have heard such complaints made by the clergy of my per- suasion, and I have reason to believe that they are true ; but I have no personal knowledge. 12.813. What clergy do you speak of? — Some of the Roman Catholic clergy here ; but I cannot speak from my own knowledge about preferences. 12.814. Have you any suggestions to make in regard to the poor laws, — would it be desirable to introduce a compulsory assessment for the support of the poor in the High- lands ? — I should wish to speak with caution, but at the same time, I would say, if the heritors will not make such voluntary assessments as are necessary, from time to time, from the state of the country and the crops, that there ought to bo a power of making such an assessment. We have not power at present to compel heritors to agree to voluntary con- tributions. Some of those who are absent, I understand, paid little or no attention to the recommendation of those who were present at our meeting. 12.815. Do yon think there should be any alteration in the law, making a compulsory provision for the relief of the impotent in the Highlands ? — If j'ou allude to the insane, the imbecile, and idiots, who are allowed to wander about, I should say that a legal assessment would be necessary for such persons, and for the impotent also. 12.816. You would recommend an alteration in the law. introducing acompulsory assess- ment for the relief of the impotent ? — I should only wish it to be compulsory in case the heritors should refuse to give what relief was necessary. 12.817. You do not wish to have the present law altered ? — My opinion is, that a general ^Iteration might destroy the present moral feeling of the people. They have a great objection to have it known that they are getting parochial relief; and an assessment im- posed might destroy that feeling ; I am, therefore, opposed to an assessment compulsory in all cases. 12.818. And to an alteration in the law ?— If the heritors object to do what is necessary there should be an assessment. 12.819. But you are against any alteration in the law applicable to the country ? — Yes, as to rural parishes. In large towns a legal assessment is necessary. The feeling I speak of does not exist to the same degree in large towns, because the people are covered by the masses around them. 12.820. Do you think it proper that an assessment should be raised for the maintenance of the imbecile and the impotent ? — I should think so. 12.821. Those who are disabled by old age and infirmity? — Yes, because I know the present voluntary contributions in the parish 1 allude to, are quite inadequate for their sup- port ; and I suppose the same thing will apply to many parishes in the Highlands, where the heritors are not resident, and where, in consequence, the church contributions are very small. 12.822. Then why not introduce a legal assessment in your own parish .''- — It is very likely that it will be necessary to do so. If the heritors refuse, as some of them I understand have done, a legal assessment will be necessary. 12.823. Have you anything to suggest? — It did occur to me since I got notice to attend here, that employment might be given to a great many of the poor in making ix>ads. Many parts of the Highlands are destitute of roads ; and it can hardly be expected that the re^ sources of such remote districts are sufficient to make roads over immense tracts of moor, where tolls would not pay for them. I think that the means of employment might be well found for some time in making roads, if some assistance were given from the public ; and I think many such districts have a claim on the public, inasmuch as the destruction of the manufacture of kelp has caused several proprietors to soil their properties, and others to bo mortgaged very deeply. 12.824. Have the Highlanders in your district been nnicb employed in canals ? — No, 12.825. Is it consistent with your knowledge that the Highlanders, after being under good superintendence, become good workmen afterwards.^ — Perfectly so ; and they are ready to employ themselves in work with adequate wages. I place a competent superintendent, unconnected with my estate, over the people I employ ; nnd from his report they are paid by a scale according to the worth of their labour. If I may offer a suggestion, I would say that it occurs to me that it would be of great advantage to employ some persons acquainted POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 741 with the mode of fishing as instructors and inspectors in the proper mode of fishing. The Exftminations. people fish along the shore, and do not go out where fish are to be found. I think a great Edinburgh. source of employment might be found in fishing — not far from the shore. I would suggest ^j^ c Gordon that persons competent to instruct them in fishing should be placed along the coast at 22 May 1843.' proper stations. This would be of great advantage, and could be done at no great expense. If proper boats were built, and proper fishermen were sent from the east coast to instruct the poor people, they would be very ready to receive instructions. 12,82(). Would you object to them going out to the deep sea fishing? — No; but for sometime, I dare say, they would object to go farther than they could return the same night. In fact, they do not know how to fish. 12.827. Would it be desirable to make any provision for destitute able-bodied persons.? — They cannot be allowed to starve ; and if not employed, they must be afforded the means of emigrating, or the means of support. 12.828. Would it be desirable to alter the law on that point? — The Scotch law does not allow it. In some districts emergencies do occur when employment is not to be had ; and the labouring poor ought somehow to be provided for. 12.829. Would you give, in such circumstances, legal reliefer relief by voluntary contri- bution ? — I know the sympathy of all classes in the Highlands for the destitute is very great, and particularly so among the poorer people ; but how far this would bring the destitute an adequate support in times of scarcity by failure or loss of crops, I will not venture to sav. In some parts of the Highlands, in Tyree for instance, the population, I am informed, is immense, and many able-bodied people frequently cannot get employment. 12.830. Do you think there would be danger of checking their energies if you gave them a legal claim for relief? — Decidedly, I think there would be danger. 12.831. Even in a workhouse ? — I should be sorry to see a workhouse established in the Highlands. 12.832. Would a man become less provident if he got relief in a workhouse i* — :I think so. The able-bodied labourers are accustomed to go to the low country for employment in summer and harvest. If they were sure of support at home from a legal assessment, they probably would not do so. 1 2.833. You would not propose any alteration in the law in regard to able-bodied persons ? — It is the duty of the legislature to look to those districts where, from the dense population, the able-bodied cannot be supported, even in the best years. There should be the intro- duction of some means of employment, or the means of emigration afforded. 12.834. Would you propose an alteration in the poor laws in regard to them?-r-I should rather think not. 12.835. Have you anything farther to suggest ? — I would venture to say that the intro- duction of a poor law for the able-bodied in country Highland parishes would tend to destroy the feeling of independence that exists. In regard to the impotent and the imbecile, an assessment is necessary. 12.836. Are you satisfied with the presentlaw ? — The question of its being put in practice or not has not been raised in the district with which I am connected. 12.837. Then you do not propose alteration ? — I would say that, in my opinion, the law for the support of the impotent and imbecile should be put in force. 12.838. You have no measure to suggest by which you would propose to effect that object? — No. Wednesday/, 2ith Muy 1843i MEMBERS PRESENT. James Campbell of Craigie, Esq,, M.P., I Edward Twisleton,, Esq., and Rev. Dr Patrick MTarlan, JAMES CAMPBELL OF CRAIGIE, ESQ., M.P., IN THE CHAIR. Rev. William Malcolm, Firth and Stennis, Examined :— ^ Rcv.w.'Miilcolm. 24 May 1843. 12.839. You are minister of Firth and Stennis in Orkney ? — Yes.. 12.840. How long have you been minister there ? — I have been minister more than thirty years. 12.841. Have you answered the queries sent to you by the Commission ?-— Yes, a meeting was held for the purpose, and we answered them as distinctly as we could. I have little information to give in addition to what is contained in these answers. 12.842. These queries are all correctly answered to the best of your belief? — Yes, to the best of my judgment they are. 12.843. AVhat is the largest allowance to any pauper on your roll ?— lam not very certain. We generally distribute the poor's fund quarterly. AVe do not give above 8s. or 9s. in the year, unless in some extraordinary cases ; and even that is above the average, 12.844. Would a widow with four children under ten years of age get an increased allow- ance ? — Undoubtedly. 742 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIvJ-:N BEFOKE TIIE £xamin»tion8. £Dj< way but to induce their fi-iends to take care of them. We have no cases of the kind in the ])arish. There is one fatuous boy who lives with his parents, and they get a small allowance from the kirk-session, not exceeding 8s. a year, or not so much. 12.866. Is there any medical provision for the sick poor? — No. We have applied to medical persons to come and visit the sick, and their charges were paid out of the poor's fund. Two or three j'cars ago, we were obliged to get a medical man several times to visit them, and we employed pei-sons to clean their houses. 12.867. Does the pai-ish furnish mexlicine for such persons? — Very seldom. I keep a small medicine chest of my own, and I do my best occasionally to prescribe for them, though I have not been educated as a medical man. In 1842, I think, 1/. 15s. was expended for medical relief. 12.868. Is there any medical man in the parish? — The nearest is in KirkAvall, five miles from the manse, and eight or nine miles from the centre of the parish. 12,669. Is there much begging in the pai-ish? — No, we discourage it as much as possible. A resolution was adopted by the synod of Orkney to stop it. There are cases of begging which we cannot prevent ; but we have very little of that. 12.870. Have you any stranger beggars ? — Great numbers. 12.871. Where do they come from ? — ^From various parts. We have had many since POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 743 the depression in trade occurred — from Glasgow and Paisley, Irishmen and women with children. 12.872. How do they get to Orkney ? — In various ways. Some get over by the steam- boats from Aberdeen ; and many get over the Pentland Firth by the post-boat, they get over for a shilling. 12.873. Do you see any respectable men among them ? — No, they are very troublesome. Some of them are very worthless characters. There are instances of them breaking into houses. They broke into the house nearest to mine, during public worship, and took a con- siderable sum of money. We failed in tracing the thing. I am near the public road, and have been much annoyed. One night an Irishman came into the house, and insisted on remaining ; he was very insolent ; and I was obliged to take up a gun, and threaten to shoot him, before I got rid of him, 12.874. Is there begging from house to house ? — No, none of the poor of the parish go from house to house. 12.875. {Mr Twisleton.) — What are the average wages of a ploughman? — 61. 12,87(). Is that exclusive of board and lodgings? — Yes; I give my ploughman 8/. 12.877. Do the laboming classes in your parish belong to any friendly society, or any other society ? — A few belong to a society in Kirkwall, for the purpose of providing for their wives — a very few, I must say. 12.878. Are their earnings sufficient to enable the labouring classes to maintain themselves comfortably ? — Their means, I think, are insufficient. Tiie rents are uncommonly high, and are not paid from any advantage derived from the land itself, but chiefly from what they make by going to sea, and by fishing. I do not know a place scarcely where the rent coidd be paid from the proceeds of the farm. 12.879. They pay for their farms rather as a matter of emolument? — Yes, with the excep- tion of one or two large farms. 12.880. Do any of them put money in savings' banks ? — I do not think there is any savings' bank there. 12.881. You have only two fatuous persons on yoiu* roU at present? — Only two, I think, just now. Both of them fatuous ; one of them is quite disabled in body and in mind, not even able to feed himself. 12.882. What other persons have you on your poor's roll? — We have sixteen persons above sixty years of age, who are partially disabled ; but they are able to do something for their own subsistence. 12.883. You stated that, in 1842, 11. 15s. was expended for medical relief; how was this gum expended? — It was given to the medical gentleman who attended fever cases. The charge was very moderate. He Is a kind hearted man, and often goes to see poor people without charging anything. 12.884. When an able-bodied man falls sick, does he pay for his own doctor ? — Yes, if he does not apply to the poor's fund for relief. 12.885. Are able-bodied persons in the habit of applying for relief? — Very seldom ; they generally pay for their doctor. 12,88(5. Is the provision for education in the parish sufficient? — Yes, every child has an opportunity of attending school. We have a parish school which is not very well taught ; but we have other schools wlilch are well taught. The teacher of the parochial school is an old man. 12.887. Are the people of provident habits ? — Very provident habits. 12.888. Have you cases of bastardy ? — We have not had a case of that kind for a con- siderable time; and we have not a case where a wife or children have been deserted. 12.889. Have you anything to suggest on the subject of the poor laws ? — No, I may state that I suspect the present system now will become inefficient from the disruption that has taken place. The people in my parish having seceded, there wiH be no collection at the parish church door. I believe only about ten wiU attend my successor ; and how the poor are to be relieved I cannot tell. 12.890. You say only ten will now attend the Established church? — Only ten or twelve at the utmost. 12.891. WiU your successor not be able to raise anything by private subscription in the parish ? — That Is entirely Impossible. The poor will in aU probability endeavour to enforce the poor law. Sevei'al of them are aware that they have that right. We receive no contri- butions at all from the non-resident heritors, who are the richest, and who are able to give something. One gentleman sends 11., or thereabouts, for women who have to be supported by the parish, when our funds are unable to do it. With tliis exception, we have not re- ceived a farthing from the non-resident heritors, and they are the wealthiest, all the other proprietors being poor. 12.892. How many non-resident heritors are there? — Four or five In number. Some small ones have gone to Canada. Examinations. Edinbuboh. Kov. W. Malcolm. ■-'4 May 184:i. Rev. Peter Learmonth, Stromness, Examined : — Rev. P. Learmonth. 12.893. {Mr Campbell.) — -You are minister of Stromness ? — Yes. 12.894. Have you had an opportunity of answering the queries sent to you by the Com- mission ? — I have answered the greater number ; I have them here. 74-4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE JSxaminntions. Bev. P. Leannoiith. 24 Mav l«4a. 12,895. Can you inform us of the largest allowance to a poor person on your roll? — ia. a quarter is the liigliest regular allowance to a poor person on the roll. 12,890. What is the allowance to a widow, for instance, with four children under ten jrears of age ? — The elders are allowed to give a little more, according to the necessity of individuals under their charge — something in addition to their regular allowance. 12.897. Persons on the roll cannot possibly live on such an allowance — how then do they subsist ? — Those who are able, beg ; and the bed-rid are relieved by charitable indivi- duals. 12.898. Have the poor sufficient in that way, so as to be able to subsist in a comfort- able way ? — I think so. 12.899. Is that your opinion, from your own observation. In visiting them in their own houses ? — Yes ; I regularly visit the sick. There are cases which come under my eye where there is much destitution ; but means are always adopted to remedy this. 12.900. Are they adopted from private charity, or do you make an extra draft from the poor's funds ? — Both means are adopted. 12.901. Would an old man or woman, bed-rid, not get more than the regular allowance? — The elders are allowed to give more ; they give sometimes as much again in extreme cases. 12.902. What Is the comparative state of the poor, in point of comfort, with labourers of the lowest class ? — It Is not comfortable. 12.903. Is there a great difference between the one and the other in point of comfort ? — Very little difference. We are in the habit of extending relief to labom-ers of the lowest class, though they are not on the roll, when they have no employment. 12.904. Do you give them assistance in cases of sickness? — Yes. 12.905. In the case of sickness in their families, do you give them relief? — Yes. 12,900. Do you find it advantageous to give relief to working men when in sickness. In order to prevent them getting into debt and sinking in the world ? — Yes ; It Is absolutely necessary to supply their wants. 12.907. Do you find it of advantage to prevent a labouring man from getting behind to relieve him in sickness, both on his own accoimt and on account of the community ? I think so. I do not know any instances in which it has been abused. 12.908. Have you a large population in the burgh part of your parish ? — I should think above 2000. 12.909. Is there much intemperance amongst the population ? — I cannot say that there is. The town is greatly exposed on account of the harbour, where vessels are often detained for four or five months in the year ; but we have very few cases of intemperance in those belonging to the to^vn. 12.910. Have you many deserted children in the parish? — ^No more than probably two or three, so far as I know. 12.911. Are they deserted by both parents ? — The father has likely been a seaman, and may not have come back, and the mother has died. 12.912. These children may be held, then, as orphans? — Yes. 12.913. How are they taken care of? — We give so much to any respectable family to keep them ; and then we educate them. 12.914. Do the elders visit them, to see that they are properly taken care of? — Yes. 12.915. What do you pay for an orphan boarded In that way? — I cannot state that exactly. Very often they are employed in herding geese and cattle, so that the people with whom they are boarded have some benefit from them. 12.916. Have you lunatics in the parish? — We have one In the Dundee asylum. 12.917. How has the expense been defrayed? — It has been defrayed by one of the elders. It has been held to be a heavy burden upon him, and the reason of his being obliged to bear it Is, because he did not proceed In a proper mode when the Individual was sent off" — he did not call a meeting of the kirk-session and heritors. Another reason Is, that he had been winding up the lunatic's fatlier's affairs, and he could not sliow documents in regard to them. I do not, however, think that he acted dishonestly in regard to the lunatic's father's aflfairs. 12.918. Might not he at any time call a meeting of the heritors and kirk-session, to pro- vide for the maintenance of the lunatic for the ensuing year ? — Yes ; I believe I have asked him to do so ; but he has thought it better to try the voluntary mode, in which he has not been successful. One or two others should be sent to the asylum. I have urged this. 12.919. What has prevented this ?— Want of funds. 12.920. Have you many medical men practising in Stromness ? — Two who have passed repfidarly, and other two who have been partially educated. 12.921. Is there care taken of the poor on tlie roll In sickness ? — In very serious cases there is. The medical men are very attentive, and do a great deal among the poor, though they receive nothing for it. They receive a trifle for medicines. 12.922. There is no regular provision for furnishing medicines? — No. 12.923. Is there much begging ? — A great deal. 12.924. Is It by your own or stranger poor? — Both. 12.925. Do they beg from door to door ? — Chiefly from door to door. 12.926. Do they take any regular day in the week ? — They take any day. 12.927. Where do the strangers come from ? — From the south — from Paisley, and other manufacturing towns. They cross the Pentland Firth. 12.928. Have you any from Ireland or England? — A few from Ireland; I do not remem- ber any from England. 12.929. Do any of them appear to be decent people, or are they common vagabonds ? — I do not tliink that in general they are common vagrants. Some of them are of notorious cha- POOR LAW IXQUIKY CO^r\nSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 745 racter, and would commit depredation were it not tliat tliey cannot make their escape PKaminatione. easily. Edinburgh. 12.930. Can you give us any idea of a labouring man's expense for food in the course of jj^^ p Learmonth. a week in Stroraness ? — I could not state it correctly; I should think very little, because 24 May 1043. they chiefly live on bread and the coal-fish, which they can get in immense numbers for three or four months in the year. Females fish as well as the males. They stand on the quay with a Hy and take in abundance. 12.931. Is it a wholesome fish ? — Very wholesome, but not a rich fish. 12.932. You state in your answer to the queries that forty children are suffered to grow up without instruction ? — I would say imperfectly educated. 12.933. What is the reason of that? — The chief reason is that they have never had any benefit from the parish school, because a great number of the people in town are fishermen and seamen ; and not a year passes without fathers of families being drowned and sent into eternity ; and iiow are the children to be educated of these parents who are lost at sea. 12.934. When a fisherman or seaman is lost at sea, explain how his widow maintains her» self? — Generally the husband has been at sea for many years, and consequently he has claims upon the Trinity in London. The widow receives about 9s. a quarter, and so much for each child under twelve years of age. But that is not sufficient to give them food, cloth- ing, and education. If she feeds and clothes them, that is aU she can do. 12.935. You mean that such a person would not liave the means to educate her children ? — She has not the means. 12.936. Would tlie church-session not interfere and educate the children ? — We do edu- cate as many as we can, 12.937. We are to understand that the ku-k-session would pay for the schooling of the children of mdows under such circumstances, if they had sufficient funds ? — Yes. 12.938. Have you any resident heritors in the parish ? — Some small heritors. The pi'in- cipal heritors are non-resident. I have about eighty heritors, and some of them pay a half- penny, and some a penny of stipend, and so on. 12.939. Do yoix consider that the condition of widows with children is woree than that of the rest of the community ? — Many of them are. 12.940. As compared with old impotent people ? — I could not say there would be much difference, because a good deal of private charity is given to both. 12.941. Are there many cases of able-bodied men out of employment ?— Very many. 12.942. How do they maintain themselves? — Many of them go to fish when the weather will permit of it. 12.943. And these fishermen have generally land besides ?■ — Very often a little piece of land for potatoes taken from the common. 12.944. When they cannot get employment do they get credit from small shopkeepers ? — Yes. 12,94.5. Do they pay interest ?— I am not positively certain. After they return fi.x)m Davis' Straits, where many of them go, they pay. 12.946. {Mr Campbell.) — The greater number of the popidation in your parish are em- ployed in the sea-faring line ? — By far the greater number. 12.947. Some go to Greenland to the whale-fishing ; and some are fishermen, and they cultivate a bit of ground besides ? — Yes, 12.948. Dq many earn a livelihood by working as day labourers ? — Yes, 12.949. Are those persons often in distress by being out of employment ? — Very often, when they can neither get employment nor get to sea to fish. Thoy have no other re- sources. 12.950. Have they any sale for the produce of their fishing ? — They have, chiefly in the town. ' 12,951. "V^lien they are employed in fishing, do they gain more money than is necessary for their immediate support ? — Yes, a little more. ■ 12,952. Then they have some resource during the time they are out of employment ? — Yes, 12.953. Are many persons employed as fami servants in your parish? — Very few; the farms are so very small that every family labours their own farm. 12.954. Do those who go to town to get dwellings get no employment in town ? — -They may get a little employment in building walls, digging gardens, and so on. 12.955. When you state in your answer to the queries, that such persons emigrate to towns, and exist by begging from door to door, do you state that from your own observation ? — From my own observation. 12.956. Have you anything to suggest? — Tt would be of great consequence if we had an endowed school in the town ; it would tend to promote the temporal welfare of the people exceedingly. 12.957. Will you have any diflScidty in continuing the collections from the church doors en account of the secession ? — I should think so, I am one of those who have gone out, I think it will ruin the collections. Ree. James Anderson, Orphir in Orkney, Examined :— 12.958. {Mr Campbell.)^Yo\i are minister of Orphir in Orkney? — Yes. 12.959. How many years have you been there ? — This is my twenty-sixth year, fiettled in 1817. 5 C I wad Rev. J. Anderson. IM MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE TIIE J^xauiinatioiis. EuiNBunoii. Uev.,1. Anderson. 24 Mav 1 84a. 12,960. Can you iiiform us of the largest amount of allowance to amy person on tli€ poor roll in your parish, say to an old man unfit for work ? — The largest sum we give is 10s. in the year. 12,i)()l. Besides tliis regular allowance, do you give occasional allowances to the same persons to assist them in cases of extraordinary distress ? — Yes, they get additional allow- ^inces ; and occasional allowances ai-e also made to others who are not on the roll. 12.962. In the case of a Avidow with four children under ten years of age, would she get anything in addition to the ordinary allowance of 10s. a year? — In a case of that kind, some extra allowance is given, when the session considers it a case of extraordinary hard- ship. 12.963. How much additional allowance would be given in a case of that kind? — Sometimes 46. and sometimes 5s. beyond the allowance at the regular distributions. 12.964. Is that in the year or half year ? — The half year. 12.965. That would nearly make up her allowance during the year to 20s. ? — ^Yes. 12.966. Do you think a poor person can live on sucli an allowance? — It is poor, very poor indeed ; but they have charitable neighbours who are attentive to them. 12.967. Are we to understand that the poor live more by private charity than by the maintenance received fi'om the kirk-session ? — I cannot be quite decided in regard to tliat. The neighbours arc very kind to the indigent. 12.968. Have you many deserted children in your parish ? — I think there are a few, a very few orphans. 12.969. How are they taken care of? — By their relations. 12.970. Does the parish make any allowance ? — When the relations are unable to provide for them altogether, they get such an allowance as the session think proper, and such as the funds can afford. 12.971. Then the allowances are regulated as much by the state of the flinds as the state of the children ? — Yes ; but ui'gent cases are by no means overlooked by the session. 12.972. Have you many claims made on you by persons who are not really indigent ? — No, they are not inclined to be burdensome on the funds for the poor, unless they are really indigent, and none apply that are refused ; so that they are very dehcate in making appUca- tions to the session. 12.973. Have you any lunatics ? — We had one, and only one, when I wrote the statistical account of the parish, a poor woman at the age of sixty. She lived with a relation for a time, who got some help from the parish for clothing, and partly for subsistence. The rela- tion was very kind to her. 12.974. When poor persons have no friends, or home of their own to live in, do you board them out ? — No, they live in some neighbour's house. 12.975. Do you provide a house tor them when they do not live with a relation? — The session has never been at expense in that way. The landed proprietors are kind and indulgent ; and when a poor person is not able to build a small hut, the neighbours are ready to assist, and the proprietor allows ground for the pm-pose gratis. 12.976. Are there means of education for the children of the poor ? — We are well furnished with schools — we have a parish school, and two mortification schools. 12.977. Are the people willing to avail themselves of opportunities for educating their children ? — Yes, they are. 12.978. (Mr Twisleton.) — You say the wants of the poor are abundantly provided for by charity, and collections ? — Yes ; that is, comparatively speaking. None are allowed to be in distress through indigence, without getting a supply from the poor's funds. 12.979. Do you think it would be desirable to increase the allowance by an assessment on the parish ? — I do not think it. 12.980. What objections have you to this ? — It would encourage indolence and laziness. 12.981. Have you any other objections ? — That is the principal objection that occurs to me. ■ 12.982. Woidd it discourage private Uberality ? — It would be apt to operate in that way. 12.983. What is the character of the population in your parish ? — They are active, indus- trious, frugal, cheerful, and contented, quiet and social in their disposition. It is rare to hear of any quaiTcl among them. They have, in general, a deep sense of the principles of religion^ and their punctual attendance on public worshij), their decency of behaviour, and close atten^ tion while there, are exemplary. It follows that intemperance, or petty thefts, are rarely heard of, and those who arc addicted to such habits are treated with the contempt they deserve. 12.984. Are there any wealthy people in the parish? — I cannot say that there are. There is one proprietor, Mr Balfour of Trinoly, who has considerable landed property in the parish ; but he does not reside in it. He is in wealthy circumstances. 12.985. By whom are the wants of the poor relieved — by private charity? — By farmers. The farmers are in general small ; yet the farmers are generally very attentive to the poor and indulgent in their own immediate neighbourhood. 12.986. Do they grudge it ? — No, they give freely and willingly. 12.987. Is there any begging in the parisli? — Yes, tliere is ; but not to a great extent. Very few belonging to the parish beg ; but we have beggars from Ivirkwall and Stromness, — my church lies between them. A great many come from these places, and also from Caithness. 12.988. Do you mean that they come to settle in your parish? — No, they come to beg. 12.989. (Mr Campbell.) — They are strangers to the parish altogether ? — They arc chiefly POOR LAW mQUlRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 747 from the places I have mentioned. I have seen some from Banffshire and Aberdeenshire, but not many. 12.990. Is there any doctor or surn;eon in your parish ?— None. 12.991. When the poor on the roll are sick, how arc they supplied with medical attend- ance ? — Their friends or relations apply to a medical man either in Kirkwall or Stromness. They come occasionally into the parish ; and always when they are sent for. 12,9,92. Are they paid by the kirk-session ? — No. The medical men are very liberal ; their demands are very moderate, if anything at all. 12.993. The reason why the kirk-session give nothing to medical men is because the medical men are so liberal ? — I do think so. No apphcation has ever been made to the kirk-session of that kind in my time. 12.994. Have the poor themselves any clubs from which they pay a doctor ? — No. 12.995. Have you a midwife in the parish ? — Yes, we have one that was bred in Edin- burgh fourteen or fifteen years ago. The parish is well provided for in that respect. Medical men are sometimes called in difficult cases. 12.996. Are labourers in your parish Inclined to push their fortunes in other places ? — We have very few in that rank. 12.997. I mean people of the lowest class ? — There is only one man who is a labourer that I know of in the jiarish, and he is a stranger. The farms being small, every farmer labours his own farm, so that day labourers are not required. 12.998. Do any emigrate ? — Fifteen during the last three years. • 12,999. From what class of persons were they ? — Sons of farmers, — they went to Hudson's Bay. The population of our parish are principally farmers and fishermen ; and many of the farmers are fishermen too. 13.000. AYill there be difficulty henceforward in getting collections at the church doors on account of the secession ?— There is reason to expect that there will be a deficiency for some time to come compared to what they have been for years past. 13.001. Have you any suggesion to make in regard to the poor law ? — No ; I would just remark that is a good old rule " to let well alone." The people are content, and the poor are kindly dealt with by their neighbours, and are not given to complain. Examinations. Edinburgh. Rev. J. Anderson. • 24 May 1843. Bev. George Ritchie, Rousay and Eagleshay, Examined : — Eer. G. Ritchie. 13.002. (Mr Twisleton.) — You are minister of Rousay and Eagleshay ? — Yes. 13.003. How long have you been so? — Six years past In August next. 13.004. Will you state the allowance made in your parish to an old man past work ? — It of course varies very much, for we have little or no assistance from the heritors. It depends , entirely on the church collections. When I first came to the parish, the average was Is. 6d. a year to each individual, or about Is. 6d. ■* 13.005. What is it now ? — If I recollect right, I think the sum was 5s. last year. 13.006. What allowance is made to a widow with four children under ten years of age ?— We can make very little difference ; the poor get very much alike. Perhaps there « may be the difference of Is. or so. The allowance is left very much to the discretion of the elders. 13.007. How are those parties maintained? — Some by doing a little work, — spinning a little, or outdoor work, those who are able to undertake it. Others go about and get provision from their neighbours, who are easy in their circumstances, and who are disposed to give them what they require. In regard to those who are bed-rid, some go about and beg for them. Their circumstances are completely known ; and they may go once a week, and get a little from different families. They get very little money. The only money they get, goes to purchase shoes or clothes. • 13,008. Is any particular day in the week set apart for begging? — ^No, they are left entirely to themselves. They are almost aU natives, who have been bom and brought up in the parish. The parish consists of four islands. 13.009. What occupation do the Inhabitants follow ? — They are almost all fishermen, and have small farms besides. Some of them have merely a cottage, and perhaps a small piece of ground sufficient to keep a cow ; and a bit of garden ground. 13.010. When a married fisherman dies, how is the widow maintained if she have a small young family ? — We have few instances of that kind ; but, in general, they would be supported partly by working. I know of one case where the widow was supported cliiefly by the public. She is on the poor's roll. 13.011. Is she supported by her neighbours? — ^Yes, she goes about among families and gets food. Their living is very simple ;. they require but little. 13.012. What is the food ? — Bearmeal, oatmeal, potatoes, and fish. The better class may have pork occasionally, and geese. There is scarcely any animal food among them except pork. 13.013. Have you many resident proprietors ? — One only, 13.014. How many non-resident? — Six. 13.015. Besides the poor being kind to each other, are the farmers kind to the poor? — They are, in good years. This last year I heard a general complaint from the poor, that they had received less this last year than usual from the farmers. The circumstances of the farmers had been much reduced, in consequence chiefly of the failure of the fishing ; and also because 748 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. EDINBrROH. Rev. O. Ritchie. 24 May 1B43. they couM get no market for tlieir produce. Very few cattle were sold last year, and the grain brought a very low price. 13.016. iVi-e there any orphans in the parish? — No. 13.017. When cases of orphans occur, how do you provide for them? — They are depend- ant very much on their neighbours. 13.018. Does the kirk-session look after their education ? — Yes. Those who cannot pay are admitted to the parochial school, and the Assembly's school. I may say that all have the means of education. Those who are poor are not prevented from going to school from that cause. 13.019. Is there u school in each island? — Yes. In one of the islands there are only four families ; and the last winter there was a teacher there for a few months. 13.020. Have you any fatuous people in the parish? — ^Two ; one is able to go about, and he begs. He is also on the roU. 13.021. Are either of them violent? — No, they are quite harmless. 13.022. Have you any able-bodied men out of employment ? — No. 13.023. Is the popidation in proportion to what the islands can maintain? — Yes ; a good many have been leaving, and proposing to leave. Last year eighteen went to America, and nine or ten went this year. 13.024. Do you connect that spirit of willingness to emigrate with the general good edu- cation that is given them? — No, because till of late years the education was extremely defective. All that had arrived at a middle life, and beyond that, received scarcely any edu- cation. Many of them can scarcely read, and some cannot read at aU. Their means of education must have been extremely deficient. It is only about ten years since the Assembly school was established, and at the same time the parochial school was established. Then there were also established what are called side schools ; for example, it was agreed that a small sum should be deducted from the maximum salary of the parochial schoolmaster to provide education in two of the islands. The sum given to the tAvo teachers in the islands is very small — ^only 4Z. to each, I think. 13.025. Do they maintain themselves in any other way besides teaching ? — Yes ; in one of the islands the teacher is employed In teaching only about four mouths in tlie year, in winter ; and he is engaged in fishing and harvest work during the summer. The other teacher is employed the whole year round. Besides the Al. he gets an additional sum front the heritor, who is proprietor of the island. He has also a free house and piece of ground ; and he gets small fees. 13,02(5. Have you any doctor or surgeon in the island ?— None. 13.027. When poor persons on the roll are sick, how do you provide medical relief for them ? — -The resident proprietor, Mr Traill, has considerable medical knowledge, and he is very kind to the. poor, giving them advice and medicine. I keep a medicine chest myself with ordinary medicines. 13.028. Do you vaccinate ? — ^No. 13.029. Does Mr Traill?— No. 13.030. Who vaccinates the children ? — It Is not done very regularly, In consequence of smaU-pox seldom appearing amongst us. Vaccination is scarcely thought of till the disease actually appears. 13.031. When did it last appear ? — Last year ; and in consequence a great many chUdi-en were vaccinated by the General Assembly's schoolmaster, and also by a woman. 13.032. Did the small-pox prove fatal in any case ? — In two or three cases. 13.033. Did it spread in the nelghboiuing parish ? — It was pretty general throughout Orkney. 13.034. Were there many deaths in the neighbouring parishes ? — Yes, a good many in Kirkwall, where it first appeared. 13.035. Have you a midwife in the parish? — Yes, regularly taught. She was sent some years ago to Edinburgh for some months, a subscription being raised for that piu-pose. She has been very successful. 13.036. From comparing the report to the General Assembly with the statistical account, there seems to be a diminution of the population ? — There is no increase. 13.037. To what do you attribute that ? — I do not know. A good many have left the parish. 13.038. Do you consider the population to be superabundant ? — I should not think so ; but the opinion among the proprietors Is that It is superabundant. 13.039. Have you anything to suggest on the subject of the poor laws ? — ^No. 13.040. Will you have any difficulty of obtaining collections at the church door in conse- quence of the secession ? — That depends very much on my leavmg the establishment. 13.041. Speaking generally, will it affect the church coUections in Orkney? — Very much. Rev. W. Macrae. Rev. William Macrae, Barvas, Island of Lews, Examined :- 13,042-. (Mr Twisleton.) — You are minister of Barvas in the island of Lewis ? — Yes. 13,043. How long have you been so ? — I was settled in May 1813, so that I have been thirty years there. POOR LxYW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 749 13.044. Will you state the usual parish allowance given to an old man unable to work? — It is very little indeed, perhaps not above 2s. in the year. 13.045. And to a widow with four children under ten years of age ? — We rarely have such a case. 13.046. How much then to a widow with young children ? —We could not afford to allow more than 2s. or 2s. 6d. 13.047. Explain how the poor and impotent in your parish manage to subsist ? — Such as are able to go about do so, and collect food. The parish consists of small tenantry, — to many of whom the poor are related. They go about from house to house, and collect meal. Such as are unable to go about, have relations that collect for them ; that is their only dependence. 13.048. Have you orphans in your parish.' — Only one who has got any relief from the poor's fund for some years. There are no orphans on the poor's roll. 13.049. When you have orphans, how are they subsisted .'' — In the way that I have men- tioned. They subsist on the charity of their neighbours, and the charity of the small tenantry. 13.050. The collections at the church door during 1842, you state, in your answers to the queries, to have been \l. 17s. 6d. ; are we to understand that you did not divide that sum, because you waited for farther accumulation previously to dividing ? — Exactly, tlieir depend- ence is on the charity that is given by ourselves, not from any things we can aiford to give from the funds. 13.051. Have you only one heritor in the parish? — Only one. 13.052. How do the 470 agricultural labourers maintain themselves? — They labour at their small bits of ground, and raise a small crop ; and some of them during the summer season, go to distant places for employment, — to Caithness, for instance, for herring fishing. Young men go in great numbers during the summer season beyond the island, to wherever they learn that employment is to be had, but particularly to Caithness and Wick, to the herring fishing, and return home in six weeks or so. 13.053. Do those that are farmers do so ? — Yes. 13.054. When an agricultural labourer's wife is left a widow, is she allowed generally to remain in the farm ? — Yes, if she can pay the rent. 13.055. Do they manage to pay the rent ? — They do particularly, if they have one or two of the family that can assist. 13,05(). Are the neighbours willing to assist widows in managing their farms ? — I cannot gay they are ready to do that ; they are rather mercenary, they are all very poor. 13.057. Are there any lunatics in your parish ? — Two or three, I think. 13.058. How are they provided for. One of them stays in my house constantly, I cannot get him away ; he says, " I was here before you, and perhaps I will be here after you, when you are gone." 13.059. Is he fatuous ? — He is ; he cannot count five. 13,0()0. Is he mischievous? — No, if let alone. 13.061. Does he lodge in your house ? — Oh, yes ; he has been there for thirty years. 13.062. Does he work? — He takes in peats and water, — our fuel is peats, — nobody must interfere with him in that. He is very old now, I daresay eighty years of age. 13.063. Is there any doctor or surgeon in your parish ? — No. 13.064. Where is the residence of the nearest? — Stornoway, about fifteen miles from the nearest part of the parish, and about twenty miles from the most remote parts of it. 13.065. When the poor are sick, who doctors them ? — I have no skill in that way, but they generally apply to me. I keep a few simple medicines. So far as I possess any know- ledge of their complaints, I endeavour to relieve them. Sometimes the doctor is sent for by those who can afford to give a little in the shape of fee ; but, the distance being so great, he is very seldom sent for. 13.066. Is there any provision for vaccinating children? — No, but they are vaccinated. 13.067. Who does it ? — The surgeon from Stornoway. 13.068. How often does he go into the parish? — When he is sent for, unless in desperate cases ; perhaps not, on an average, more than once in the week. 13.069. Are there any cases of bastardy in the parish ? — No ; we are very free of that. 13.070. Do they generally marry young? — They did so more than they do now, I have known young men frequently apply for marriage before they were nineteen years of age. 13.071. Has the population between 1831 and 1841 increased more than in proportion to the means of subsistence in the parish ? — Yes. The means of support are very scanty ; there is no employment whatever besides what is stated in the answers to the queries. 13.072. {Mr Campbell.) — You think that the population has increased beyond the increase of the means of support ? — No doubt of it ; the means of support remain the same. 13.073. It appears that all the children can read the Scriptures in Gaelic? — Yes. 13.074. Are they taught English too ? — Very few of them. In the schools nothing but Gaelic is taught, except in the parochial school, and very few attend it. 13.075. Is the want of being taught English not a barrier in their way ? — Yes, it is. 13.076. Has the instruction in Gaelic not created a desire in them to learn English too ? — Not generally. 13.077. Would you not expect that that would be the case? — I would naturally suppose it would. 13.078. How long have the Gaelic schools been in operation? — Upwards of twenty years. 13.079. Have you a sufficient number of schools for the parish .' — No. The Gaelic schools Examinati<>n^ . . c 24 May i!!4:». 13,080. Are there ahle-bodied persons out of employment m the parish ?— Flenty out of employment. There is no work going on in the ccwntry, except the little employment they have in their own small farms. 13.081. Not during the whole year ?— It does not occupy their time one third of the year. 13.082. Do they subsist bv begging? — No. 13.083. How do they subsist ?— On the produce of their own land. 13.084. Then it is sufficient for their maintenance ?— Generally. 13.085. There is not much destitution, then, among able-bodied persons?— No. 13.086. (Mr Twisleton.) You have stated that the collections are small at the church doors ? — Yes. 13.087. You would not think it expedient to renounce the practice of collections? — No. 13.088. Do the people depeftd upon them ?— No. 13.089. They do not do either much good or harm ?— No. 13.090. Suppose an assessment were laid on the parish instead of the collections, what would be the effects of it on the habits of the peojjle ? — I do not know. 1 would rather that the proprietors would give a distinct sum to be laid out on the poor, than have an assessment. 13.091. You mean voluntarily? — Yes : something of the kind is indispensable ; for the support of the poor depends on those who are very poor themselves. We never get a far- thing from the proprietor for the relief of the poor. He is heritor of the whole island of Lewis, consisting of a population of 1(),000. The late proprietor gave 5/. a year to each of the parishes, and 10^. to Stornoway ; but this has been discontinued for a number of years. 13.092. Do you conceive it would be possible to make a provision for the im])otcnt with- out casting an intolerable burden on the rest of the community in the parish ? — It is possible enough. Suppose the burden were imposed on the parish, and that instead of demanding money, produce should be substituted, so that a township consisting of so many tenants, each paying from 31. to 5/. or 61. of rent, should be assessed each according to his rent, not in money, but making it optional to pay in money, or in produce, which would answer equally well for the poor, — say, meal, grain, or potatoes, that would do well ; but to lay on an assessment, and exact it in money only, would not suit so well, because they are a poor population, and there is great difficulty in procuring money. Such as could give money might do so, which would provide clothing for the poor. 13.093. Would it be possible with such a provision, to prevent begging? — Yes, it would « keep the poor within their own parish. It is more of an agricultural parish than the other parishes around ; and a number of poor from other parishes flock into it for meal. They are a great tax upon us. Oar own poor is a sufficient burden. They come twice a year from other parishes, begging meal and wool. 13.094. Do they grudge to help the poor of neighbouring parishes? — No; tlioy do not grudge even to assist the poor of other parishes. 13.095. You would recommend some provision effectually to relieve the poor? — Yes, — making it optional to the payers to pay in money or in kind. 13.096. Why recommend that there should be an assessment when you give so gene- rously now ? — The relief given is not equal, — it is perfectly spontaneous, and given chiefly by thebenevolent. 13.097. So that the selfish get ofl" altogether? — Sometimes; but they do not generally give so much. 13.098. Has begging a good moral effect on the peasantry ? — No. Where I am I do not think it is injurious or unfavourable, — no harm arises from it. It is a regular thing with the poor to go at certain times of the year to collect a store of provisions to serve them the rest of the year. 13.099. Has it not a tendency to encourage lying, and making exaggerated stories ? — No ; we know their circumstances too well. They do not say a word at all. No imposition of that kind can be practised. 13.100. But in regard to children, is it a general thing for children to be brought up in habits of that kind ? — No, the children very rarely go about. 13.101. But when the parents go about, what is done with the children ? — It seldom happens that parents who have young children ai'e so reduced as to go about begging. 13.102. Not widows with children ? — No. They generally have a spot of ground. 13.103. It is almost entirely the impotent who go about begging ?— Yes, the aged and impotent. 13.104. (J)r M'Farlan.)—Was Lewis one of the islands that was affected by the scarcity of 1837 ?— Yes, there was scarcity in 1836 and 1837. 13.105. It arose from the unfavourableness of the season .» — Yes, entirely, — the severity of the weather and season ; the crops fiiiled, and cattle were destroyed. 13.106. Is there an indisposition in the people to go to the low country for work ?— There is no indisposition to work wherever thej' can get it. 13.107. But they are impeded by their ignorance of the Englidi language .'—That is very much against them, no doubt. 13.108. (Mr Campbell.)— Is there anything that you would propose as an improvement in the poor law as applicable to your parish ?— Nothing more occurs to me than what I have stated. The people consider it a hardship that the whole burden of supporting the poor rests upon them without aid from the proprietor. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 751 13,109. But they do not generally complain? — No; what is the use of it ? That will not better their situation. They never saw any other way of supporting the poor, with the exception of the money given by the late proprietor, which is now withheld. £xaniitiation«. Rev.W. Macrae. 24 Mav 1848. Reo. James Pearson, Kolmeny in Islay, Examined : Rer. J. Pearson. 13.110. {Mr Camplell.) — You are minister of the parish of Ivilmeny in Islay — a gnoad sacra parish ? — Yes. 13.111. How long have you been there? — Since 1829. 13.112. Who is the clergyman of the parish? — It is vacant at present. 13.113. Ai'e you acquainted with the amount of allowance given to the poor on the roll? — Generally. 13.114. What is about the highest rate of allowance to any individual on the roll ? — lOs. in the year is what we give in ordinary cases ; but when any are laid up in sickness, we per- haps board them at 2s. 6d. a week or so. 13.115. Suppose a widow with four children under ten years of age, what would you allow in such a case ? — We have not been accustomed to give anything to able-bodied women unless they ai"e reduced to great straits ; and even then we do not take them on the roll, except for occasional relief. 13,110. Then it is not your practice to give relief to such a person ? — Not from the poor's fimd. 13.117. How does she contrive to live?— In some such cases we have applied to Mr Campbell of Islay, and have sometimes got relief for them. 13.118. How are old men past work provided for? — When past work they get the ordinary provision. 13.119. How do they manage to make up their maintenance? — Generally by going among the people, — they are generaUy aided by the people, and get through in that way. 13.120. They get assistance from their neighbours ? — Yes, except on an a2)plication similar to what I have mentioned, where there is a special necessity. 13.121. So that the poor are virtually maintained by private charity? — Yes; for 15s. or 16s. a year, which is pretty much the allowance given, — from 15s. to 18s., — it is not expected can aid them farther than in purchasing some shoes or clothes. They do not look to this allowance for subsistence ; their main dependence is private charity. 13.122. Is there regular begging, or going from door to door, among their neighbours? — Going among their neighbours. 13.123. Have you strangers in the parish? — Yes, we have a good many Irish; a good many of them congregate in the village of Bovrmore. 13.124. Of what country are those strangers who settle down in Islay, and go about begging ? — They are chiefly Irish. 13.125. Are there many orphans or deserted children in your parish ? — Not many. 13.126. I mean children Avho have lost both parents ? — Not many of these. 13.127. Have you any children who have been deserted by their parents? — No. 13.128. How are orphans taken care of? — Chiefly by their friends. 13.129. Does the parish make an allowance to those who take care of them ? — We have not many cases in which they become a bin^dcn on the parish. 13.130. What allowance would you give in such a case ? — The general allowance we give to other paupers. But being supported by their relatives, they are seldom aided by the parish. 13.131. Is there any provision for giving medical aid to the poor when in sickness ? — Not from the session funds ; but there has been for a good many years contributions to a medical man, who is under an obligation to attend to the poor ; it is raised in the way of cess accord- ing to tlie rent. We also get a considerable sum trom Mr Campbell of Islay. The medical person is bound to attend to the poor when called in. 13.132. There is a fund raised by cess, along with the other public burdens in the parish, for relief to the sick poor ?-^Yes. 13.133. Is it voluntary ? — It is so far voluntary, inasmuch as it is agreed on at a general meeting of the taxmen of the land : all those who have land come under it. 13.134. Is it paid regularly, without disputing it ? — Yes, it has been paid without dis- puting. 13.135. Does it apply to the whole isLand ?— To the whole island. The allowance is made to them on this condition. 13.136. Do you mean that a certain allowance is made to each medical man to attend to the poor of his district ? — Yes. 13.137. Ai-e medicines fm-nished to the poor in the same way ? — Not without an additional charge for the medicines. 13.138. Is the amomitfor medicines paid out of this cess? — I cannot exactly answer that question at present. 13.139. So far as you know, medical persons receive a fixed allowance? — Yes. 13.140. Do you think the poor in your parish are pretty weU looked after? — Yes, pretty well looked after as paupers, — fully, under all circumstances, equal to what I see them generally in other parts of the country. 752 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniiuatious. Bdikburoh, Kev. J. Pearson, 24 Miiy 1843. 13.141. "Wliat is their condition compared with that of a working man, — I mean the lowest class of labourers in the parish ? — I do not think they fall short of that condition. 18.142. Would it be advisable to introduce an assessment ? — It is liable to the objection that it would create more pauperism ; that, I fear, would be its tendency. I have observed that tlie industrious and well behaved are generally in good circumstances till they reach an advanced age ; and, on the contrary, for the last dozen years, I have noticed that those with whose character I was least satisfied, are those who are very much our burden. 13.143. (Mr Twisleto7i,) — Is it common for people when young to lay by for old age in your parish ? — They are not much in the way of doing that ; but I have observed that those who have been most regular in their conduct are those who have been least a burden. 13.144. Are there many labourers in your parish who have laid by a provision for old age ? — I do not think there are many. 13.145. Those who have not been able to lay by, when they become unable for work, must subsist by begging from door to door ? — They must subsist in that way. 13.146. The question is between an assessment preventing begging, and voluntary contri- butions allowing begging ?-^Yes, the question comes to that. The certainty of a provision might encourage the indulgence of a feeling that woidd cause them to throw themselves a burden on the provision. 13.147. Notwithstanding you have no provision except bogging, — you do not find that many have saved for old age ? — No, 13.148. Have you ever considered whether there would be a diflticulty in raising an assess- ment ? — There certainly would among the farmers. There are many of them in worse circumstances than some of the labouring classes, and who find great diflSculty just now in getting on. 13.149. "Wliat is that owing to? — To the depression that has existed. This very year everything is reduced to a third, — cattle, and the produce of the ground. The farmers have to go through severe seasons. At present they are m the lowest state of depression, — aQ who have not made a previous independency. 13.150. If there were to be an assessment for the impotent, would it be advisable to col- lect part of the rate in kind among the small farmers ? — I think it might be practicable in this way, but the great matter is the actual decrease of the value of their substance, and their consequent difficulty in being able to pay their rents. 13.151. Do you find that they are less able to give private charity ? — It is but a small portion that would be given in that way, in comparison with vhat would be required by au assessment. Giving a little of their produce would not be felt as an assessment would. 13.152. You do not find that the distress of farmers has prevented them giving the poor as much in this way in private charity as they woidd be required to give in kind by an assessment ? — I do not know, but perhaps not, so far as I have been able to find. 13.153. Is there much bastardy in your parish ? — Not very much ; but we have a share of that. 13.154. Is it increasing or decreasing ?— It is not on the increase, it is decreasing. We have had an importation of miners from the low country which has not bettered us in that ; but there has not within the last five or six years been much of bastardy, 13.155. {Dr M'Farlan.) — Are there any cases of extreme destitution in your parish in consequence of the present system of administering the poor funds ? — I am not aware of ftny cases of extreme destitution, but there are cases in which they are pretty low. 13.156. When you said that the condition of the cottars, the lowest class of labourers, and that of the poor were alike, — j-ou meant the observation to be general ? — Yes, 13.157. Is intemperance a vice pretty general in your parish? — It is very ipuch on the decrease since I became a minister in the parish. 13.158. Are there many public houses in the parish ?— Yes, too many. There is one inn, and that is required ; but we have four public houses within the parish that we could well enough want ; and I am sorry to say, they are m'cU supported, 13.159. How are licenses granted to them ? — By the magistrates. 13.160. Is a certificate from a minister required before giving a license ? — No ; at least I have had no applications made to me to that effect. I would rather have power to get them done away Avitb. 13.161. Are any of them disorderly? — The character of some of them Is anytliing but orderly. 13.162. Would you suggest any improvement in the mode of granting licenses ? — I should like them suppressed — such as are not orderly. They are merely traps for catching people. If we had but one only, a check could be kept on the character of the house. 13.163. Arc the means of education furnished in sufficient abundance for the poor in the parish ? — Lately we have had one of the government schools placed in the parish, under tlie condition that the poor children whose parents or relations cannot pay, are to be taught gi-atis. 13.164. How long ha« it b'een in operation?. — It hag only been lately endowed. 13.165. Do the people avail themselves readily of the opportunity thus afforded them ? — The people in general have been so much neglected in education themselves, that they have not come to avail themselves of it for their children so much as they should. In many casea they prefer sending them to improper teachers, 13.166. You do not think that they set a sufficient value on the blessings of education ? —No, 13.167. The habit needs to be coirected ?— Yes. 13.168. Are there schools for teaching Gaelic excluaively ? — No, we have none of those in POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 753 our parish at present ; but they have been there, the schools. 13,109. Has the Gaelic, however, is generally taught in all teaching in Gaelic awakened any desire to learn the English language ? — Yes, a general desire ; they desire so much to learn the English, that they would dispense with Gaelic altogether ; but they both go on well together. 13.170. I supj)ose a great number of the people have a knowledge both of English and Gaelic ? — The greater part of them can read a little English. 13.171. Is the habit of church going j)revaleut in your parish? — It has become more so than it \\as ; but a good deal remains to be done to bring them to attend. 13.172. Are the public houses frequented by those who do not go to church ? — I get them before the magistrates when they do so ; but there is very littlt of that now. They ^^•ill not venture to do it so as to be seen. 13.173. Is there any improvement you would suggest in regard to the subject of our inquiry ? — It would be a good thing if we could get hold of those who are able, but who are not willing, to contribute. If an assessment could be im[)osed on them, without aftecting the jjcople generally, it would bo well ; but I i-eally cannot suggest any thing. 13.174. You would not think of making the assessment general on landlord and tenant? — If it could be got without producing a bad effect upon the people, I mean the effect of encouraging the habits of mendicity and idleness, I woidd think it a very great improvement. ( )ne ditticidty is, that when it is compulsory, it lias much the effect of checking voluntary liberality. Examinations. fjDINBlTROH. Kev. J. I'earfoTi. 24 May 1843. Rev. John M'Kiiinon, Strath, Examined : — - 13,17o. (^fr Campbell.^ — You are minister of Strath in the Island of Skye?- Yes. 1.3,176. How long have you been there? — About seventeen years. I was two vears minister of Sleat. 13.177. Have you a general acquaintance with the amount of subsistence allowed to the poor of the parish ? — We have no funds at all. 13.178. How are the poor sujiported? — Chiefly by their neighbours and relations. 13.179. Is there any voluntary contribution by the heritors? — None 13.180. Have you no church collections ? — We were five years without any church collec- tions ; but a new church having been built, we have had collections for the last two years. 13.181. What was the amount of the collections last year ? — Imade a return to Mr Sands ; I should say from 8/. to IQl. ; I cannot speak accurately^ 13.182. Was any relief given to the poor out of that fund? — No, as we are anxious to form a fimd to supply them occasionally. 13.183. Is there any way in which poor people, when in sickness, are assisted in Skye ? — No, excej)t by the gentlemen in the district, and their neighbours. 13.184. How many medical men are on the island? — In my parish there are two. 13,18,5. Are the gentlemen and fanners attentive to the poor people? — Very much so. 13,18(). Are you acquainted with the situation of the poor in any other parish ? — No; but in the island of Skye they are very much in the same condition as in my own parish. 13.187. In what state do the poor live in your parish ? — They live nearly as well as their neighbours. 13.188. Do they live nearly as well as the lower classes of labourers? — Yes, the people are very attentive to the poor ; and food is taken to those who caimot go about. They go about the country, and get wool ; they spin it, and get it w&veta on the island for clothing. 13.189. Would it be desirable to introduce an assessment? — lam very doubtful about it in our part of the country. I do not think the people could pay an assessment in monej', generally speaking. 13.190. Would the poor be better provided for by an assessment thaa by v-oluntary con- tributions ? — That I cannot answer. I do not think we would. be much benefited by it, unless the proprietors come handsomely forward. The poojr are unwHling to beg, if they could avoid it. 13.191. You do not think it woidd impair their. habits of providence? — ^I daaot think it would. 13.192. Is there much begging among your parishioners ? — Not muchv 13.193. Do they go to beg at stated times ? — Generally^ 13.194. Is the begging confined to adidts, or do the children beg? — I cannot say. They very seldom go through their own parish with chikU-en. 13,19.5. Do many strangers bog m your parish ? — Yes ; but there are not so many since the rural police was established in Inverness. 13,19(5. Have you any from Ireland ? — Very few. 13.197. Have you any from England ? — I have known one come from England, who has never loft us. The English beggar is a gardener: theTrish beggars are generally farm servants. They come as beggars, and get into employment. I do not think the poor people could pay an assessment, unless they could p.ay it in produce. 13.198. You mean, by jjoor people, the crofters? — Yes, the small tenants. 13.199. Are there many large tenants in the parish ? — There are six gentlemen tenants. 13.200. {Dr M^Furhn.) — Are there cases of extreme poverty and destitution in the parish ? — There are some confined to bed from infirmity. 6 D Rev. J. M'Kinnon. 754 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Ex)iiiin»tions. KOINBUIIRJI. I!iT. J. Ai'Kimion. 24 May l|i4;(. charity sufficient for their I know some who are very -We have no 13.201. Are they aged people? — No. 13.202. Do you think the rehef received from private maintenance ? — They should be satisfied with it, such as it is. well supplied by their neighbours. 13.203. Have you fatuous or insane poor of any description in the parish ?- fatuous poor. 13.204. Is there any provision made for orjjhans ? — None. 1 3.205. Are they dependent entirely on their relations ? — Their relations support them as far as tiieir means go. 13.206. What provision have you for education? — We have a parochial school, a General Assembly's school, a Gaelic Society school, and some subscription schools — I think two. 13.207. Do you think the means of education adequate ? — No. My parish is thirty miles long : the breadth varies very miich — from three to eight miles. 13.208. Is it intci'sected by difficult ranges of mountains ? — Yes. 13.209. If the number of schools were increased, would it improve the moral and economical condition of the people ? — Yes, and it would make them more readily leave the I)lace. They remain in it because of their ignorance of tiie English language. 13.210. Is there an inclination in those who have been educated in the EngUsh schools to come to the lowlands ? — Some who can read and write have that inclination. 13.211. Are they disposed to emigrate? — No, if they could live comfoj'tably at homej but now that the population is so great, and no labour to be got, and the price of stock being so low, they would be willing, many of thein, to emigrate, if the means of doing so were aiForded them. Perhaps the panic occasioned by the tariff' has been much against them. 13.212. Has the population increased ip ji greater proportion than the ineans of subsistence in your parish? — It has. 200 went tQ Australia in 1839, 13.213. Would it be advisable to give greater encouragement to emigration than has been, given hitherto in the parish ? — Most desirable, Jf there is no outlet for the population, thinga wUl be worse than they have boon. 13.214. Are there any other means than emigration of relieving you of the superabundant population ? — Not that I know, 13.215. Or of employing the labouring class ?— No, unless we had public works esta^. blished among us, 13.216. Are the people willing to emigi-ate now? — I have little doubt of that. 13.217. If the means of education were increased, that woidd also increase the inclination to emigrate ? — I should hope so, 13.218. Ave all the branches of elementary education taught in all the schools? — Not iix all. The parochial schoolmaster is able to teach Greek and Latin, 18.219. But reading, writing, and arithjnetio, are taught in all? — Yes, in all except the Gaelic school, 13.220. Is the Gaelic school ambulatory ?^ Yes. 13.221. When application is made for the school to repiove, is it attended to — and has it,i in point of fact, been removed ? — Yes. 13.222. {Mr Twisleton.) — You stated that widows did not take their children along with them in begging through your parish ?— They do not, I have known them come to me to apply for certificates to go to other parishes, or to leave the country. 13.223. Do widows from other parts of the country bring their children when begging? — Yes, I have seen them sometimes with one, and sometimes two, children. 13.224. Have you any suggestion to make on the poor law?— None at present, farther than if an assessment were made, it should be rather given in produce than in money. I am quite of that opinion, I do not know that money given to the poor would be alwaya properly used ; some would expend it in tea and sugar, 13,225. You are doubtfiU whether an assessment would have a good effi^et? — Yes. »H 13.226. If an assessment were imposed, it would be more easily collected if raised produce from small farmers ? — Yes, I think so. 13.227, Do you give any allowance to aid in burying paupers? — In one or two cases lOs,, were given last j^ear to pay^ for a coffin. Key. C. M'Donald. Rei\ Colin McDonald, Portree, Examined : — 13.228. (Mr Campbell^ — You are minister of Portree in Skye? — Yes. 13.229. How long have you been so ? — thirty years. 13.230. Have you made any return to the queries sent to you by this Commission ? — No. 13.231. Can you tell the funds for the maintenance of the poor in your parish? — We have very little indeed ; we have the interest of 163/. annually, and we have the collections at the church door, which come to a mere trifle, from Al. to 51. in the year ; that is all the permanent support we have for the poor, 13.232. Have you a roll ? — I have a roll of the district in the neighbourhood of my own parish ; but there is a district in the island connected with the parish under the charge of another, and I cannot remember the number on his roll. On my own roll tliere are from 80 to 100. POOR LAW INQUIEY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. • 755 13.233. Do you distribute the small fund you have over the whole of that 100 ? — Yes, Kx-amiiiations. ^g (Jo. Kdinbukou. 13.234. Are there 80 up to 100 all on the regular roll ? — Some of them are on the occa- p^^. ,, ji.po„aid. sional, and some of them on the permanent, roll. If we see persons in great distress we 04 jiay lii43. give them a little for the time, and when their circumstances become better we discontinue their names. 13,23;"). What is the greatest amount you pay to an individual on the roll ;— Sometimes we give 10s. to an individual who is confined to bed or unable to go about, and in very rare instances we give 20s. in the year. 13.236. What do you give to a widow with four children, say ? — We could only give her a small sum, from 2s. to 5s. in the year for one or two of the family, leaving the rest to shift for themselves the best way they could. 13.237. How do the poor live, — they cannot live upon what they get from the parish ? — Utterly impossible ; they live on their neighbours. They go about among their neighbours. Some have friends who keep them, others are taken in by their neighbours, and are quar- tered for a night, or several nights, as it may be. 13.238. In fact the poor depend entirely on the benevolence of their neighbours? — Indeed I may almost say so. 13.239. Portree is a considerable place ? — It is a small village, but the largest in the island. 13.240. Are any employed as common day-labourers there? — They are chiefly employed in fisliing ; it is very little employment they get otherwise. There is no public work of any description carried on in the parish ; there are no farmers to employ them in agricul- tural pursuits; there are no residing heritors; and scarcely any tacksmen in the parish. The great body of the people are poor. When I say there are no tacksmen in the parish, I mean persons holding large farms. 13.241. But there are farms in the parish belonging to tacksmen ? — Yes. 13.242. The inhabitants of the parish are chiefly cottars ajid fishers? — ^Chiefly so. 13.243. Is there any provision for the poor in the parish in cases of sickness? — No. 13.244. Is there no way of getting medical aid for them ? — No, unless by sympathy or compassion, they get a little medicine in sickness ; but there is no provision made for them in that respect. 13.245. Are there any orphans or deserted children in your parish? — I do not know what you mean by deserted children. 13.246. Children whose parents have ran away and left them ? — There may be instances of parents of illegitimate children running away and leaving them, although I do not re- collect any instances of it ; but no children born of married parents have been deserted. 13.247. How are orphans provided for.' — Just in the same way as the rest of the poor by their neighbours. 13.248. What is the condition of the poor compared with the lower classes of fishermen who are in employment, — I mean the impotent poor ? — There is not much distinction in their circumstances between the lowest and the poorest of the fishers and the impotent poor. The fishermen are much worse ofi^ since the failure of the herring fishing in that quarter. 13.249. Would you recommend an assessment for the maintenance of the poor in your parish? — I cannot say. If all the poor were to be supported by assessment, it would • require to be very considerable indeed. 13.250. Would the rent of the parish be sufficient? — Yes, it would, no doubt of it, fully sufficient. 13.251. What is the rental of the parish? — I cannot undertake to say the exact amount. 13.252. Is there only one large farm in it ? — There is none that I would call a large farm. 13.253. Have you any lunatics in the parish — fatuous persons? — We have them occa- sionally ; but I am not aware that any of the regular parishioners are in that situation. Some of that description are occasionally going about and come into the parish. 13.254. Have you many beggars from other parts of the country ? — Not many since the time that the local police was established ; but we have a few such. 13.255. {Mr Twideton.) — Do you think that children feel that it is a religious duty to support their parents ? — They are very dutiful in that respect as far as their abilities go. 13.256. Where persons have no children, are they, generally speaking, supported by their near relations ? — I cannot say that they are wholly so supported ; they get assistance from their neighbours. 13.257. The population of your parish is stated in the report to the General Assembly of 1837, to be 3431, — has it increased or decreased since ? — Decreased. 13.258. To what is that to be ascribed ?-^To the number who have emigrated. 13.259. Is there a disposition to emigrate ? — There was some years back ; but they are not so much inclined now. They do not find their friends who have emigrated so com- fortable as to induce them to join them. 13.260. If a legal provision were made for them to emigrate, would it increase the incli- nation to emigrate ? — I am persuaded it would. 13.261. When the railways were carrying on in this part of the country, did many leave your parish to work at them ? — There might have been some, but not many. 13.262. Was there a disinclination to go ? — Yes, from this circumstance, that they are not much accustomed to such work ; besides, they would lose the benefit of fishing, on which they chiefly rely. 13.263. You say there are no tacksmen in the parish, — of what class does the popula- 756 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. tion of the parish consist ? — Of cottars. Some of them occupy a greater extent of land Kui.tBLRHn. tijj^u others. ReT. c. il'lk.naM. 13,264. Under tacksmen? — Not at all ; — from the proprietor. •24 May \iii;\. 13,26;"). You would not dignify them by the name of tacksmen? — No. A small farm is divided between six, seven, eight, nine, or ten of them. 13.266. Tenants at will ? — Yes. They have no leases. I am not aware that there is a lease in the whole parish, except one farm of considerable extent. 13.267. Is it the practice of those farmers to fish at the fishing season ? — Yes, those of them who are contiguous to the shore. Some who are at a considerable distance from the sea, and have a small extent of land on which they keep cows and sheep, never go to the fishing. 13,268- Those who are situated by the sea side prefer taking their chance of subsistence by fishing rather than come down to the lowlands ? — Yes ; that is the kind of life to which they have been brought up, and they can scarcely succeed very well in any other. It would not be easy to convert a tenant in jNIid-Lothian into a fisherman ; and it would be as difficult to convert a fisherman into a road maker. 13.269. What is the length of your parish? — From thirteen to fourteen miles. 13.270. What may be the extent of the small farms you speak off? — Some of them will keep two cows ; some of them one, and some of them four or five, and a few sheep ; and this is the greatest, with very few exceptions. 13.271. Do they grow potatoes chiefly? — Yes. 13.272. What does their food consist of? — Chiefly potatoes and herrings. 13.273. They have not much animal food? — Very little of that. 13.274. Have they any oatmeal ? — They have a little which they grow on small patches of the arable land that tliey occupy. 13.275. How many schoolmasters arc there in the parish ? — Three Gaelic schoolmasters I believe, and a parish school ; and a subscription school kept up by the poor themselves — five in all. They can hardly be called schools, because they are taught by boys, who have not had the advantages of good education. 13.276. Generally you think the teachers ill qualified? — They are altogether disqualified. 13.277. What are the branches of education they teach ? — They pretend to teach English reading, writing, aAd all that ; but they teach them imperfectly. 13.278. Are the principles of religion taught in these schools? — Regularly — reading the scriptures, the shorter catechism, and the mothers catechism. 13.279. In English or Gaelic ? — Both. 13.280. Do the people set a value on the blessings of education ? — They do. 13.281. Do they express a desire to have some superior teachers to those they have at present? — -1 am sure they would be very acceptable to them. They are constantly inquir- ing if they can get schools, and how to get them. 13.282. Would they grudge the school fees .'' — I am sure they would, because they would be scarcely able to pay them. 13.283. The farmers whom you describe as having five or six cows, and two or three .sheep, do you think that after paying their rents, and tidiing into account the assistance they get by fishing, they have not more than the bare means of subsistence 1 — If their stock be free, they are bettor ofl" certainly. The great bulk of them have nothing from one year to another but what they make in this way. 13.284. And even those who have their stock free, could they do without their stock to make anything of their farm at all ? — Impossible. 13.285. And the income from their stock and land together is not more than sufficient to pay their rent, and support their families ? — I do not think it. 13.286. Is intemperance a prevalent vice ? — Not at all. *■ 13.287. Is it on the decrease ? — Yes, very considerably. 13.288. Is there a licensed distillery in the parish ? — We never had any ; but there is one in the neighbourhood of the parish ; and there never was any illicit distillation carried on on Lord M'Donald's estate. It is a rule with him at once to dismiss the person who attempts it ; and this has prevented it more than all the preventive service. 13,280. Is there any begging from door to door?— Yes, the poor go round the parish, and are supported by their friends. 13.290. Where do the tenants keep their cows — have they a separate byre for them, or do they keep them in their own cottages ? — They do, I am sorry to say, in many instances, keep the cattle under the same roof with themselves. 13.291. (Dr M'Farlan.) — You do not mean in the same room ? — In general they have the cattle in the same house with themselves, . Do you think it would be important to make a provision for the education of better schoolmasters ? — That is an undertaking that should fall naturally on the government POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 757 of the country. They should give encouragement to better teachers, to improve the morals of the young, and make them more dutiful subjects — to improve them in a variety of ways, which can never be accomplished without giving them a regular education. Besides, if the people had education, they would not remain in the poverty in which they now are ; they would find out ways and means to get away to other countries. What can a man do on the road who cannot speak a word of English ? He would be at a loss every turn he took. They would not submit to the hardship of their present condition if they had education, oh ! no, — they would rather travel the world. 13,297. Have you anything to suggest on the subject of the poor laws? — Perhaps an aseessment might be of use, — I think it would. Ii3,2i)8. {!)>• M-Farlan.) — Upon the landlord and tenant? — Upon any whom the law would subject to that taxation. 13.299. You are aware that it subjects the landlord and tenant at present? — Yes. I think that would be the best plan. 13.300. Has the kirk -session ever asked the heritors to impose an assessment on the parish ? — We have often told them the necessity of it ; but we got no satisfactory reply. 13.301. Have you ever tried to compel them I — We have done nothing save making a simple demand. 13.302. Would there be difficulty in raising the money ? — It would be more easy if a por- tion of it were raised in produce. It would be- easier in the way of produce, because some of those small tenants M'ould have produce when they would not have money. Kxaniiiiatioiig Edi.>l. Have you any thing to suggest in regard to a change in the poor laws of Scotland, ^^^ f Macrae, particularly in reference to such a parish as your own?— The heritors ought to contribute 24 May l»43. more ; the burden falls chiefly on the tenants. At the same time 1 must say that Lord M'Donald has been very liberal in assisting the people to emigrate. 13.352. As Lord McDonald subscribed 1159/. 3s. 3d, for emigration in three years, do you not think that he must consider that this ought to be taken into account in reference to what he gives to the poor ? — I think so. 13.353. Has not the aid been in consequence more considerable to those who remained behind ? — Yes. 13.354. Notwithstanding the difficulty under which the population in your parish labour, is the tendency to early marriages as strong as you have stated in your statistical account ? — They are not so early as they were, generally speaking, when I entered the parish. 13.355. Do you think they attend more to prudential considerations before entering into that state ? — I think so. 13,35(!. Are early marriages more prevalent among the poorer or the better conditioned classes .'' — I should say that early marriages are more general among the poorer, than among the better classes. 13.357. Does a man not provide himself with a certain amount of furniture before enter^ ing into the marriage state 1 — Generally he does, but there are instances to the contrary. 13.358. Are they very content with a very small provision ? — Yes. 13.359. And the standard of living is generally very low ? — Yes ; but better than it is in neighbouring parishes. 13.360. Have you made any comparison in regard to early marriages between your and the neighbouring parishes? — No, Friday, 26th May 1843. MEMBERS PRESENT, James Campbell of Craigie, Esq., M.P., jRdward Twisleton, Esq., Rev. Dr Patrick M'Farlan, and Rev. James Robertson. JAMES CAMPBELL OF CRAIGIE, ESQ., M.P., IN THE CHAIR. Rev, John Finlayson, Cross, Examined: — ^ ReT.J.Finlayson. 13.361. {Mr Campbell.) — You are minister of Cross, in the presbytery of Uist?— Yes. 13.362. That is in the synod of Glenelg ? — Yes, 13.363. Ho«' long have you been clergyman there ? — Three years. 13.364. Were you settled in any other parish before ? — No. 13.365. What is the largest allowance made to a poor person from the poor's fond, in- capable of work in your parish ? — Between 4s. and 5s. during the year ; — it is scarcely worth while mentioning it as a fond, 13.366. Have you made a return to the queries sent to you by this Commission ? — Yes, 13.367. The poor in your parish must have some other means of subsistence than public aid ? — There is no public aid whatever. 13.368. How do they live ? — They are supported by their friends; there is very little allowance from the kirk-session at any rate, 13.369. What is their situation compared with that of the lowest order of the working classes in the same parish ? — When there is a plenteous year, there is no scarcity of food. They live upon fish particularly. Fishing is their principal employment. 13.370. But those who arc incajiable of work from old age, is their situation worse than that of the lowest of the working classes ? — They live in the houses of their friends ; — some of them are better, some worse, supplied, according to the situation of their friends. 13.371. Are they treated in the same way as the members of the family ? — Yes. If they are very old pet^le, a bothy is built for them, attached to the house, and they are fed from the table of their friends. 13.372. Are there many of the very infirm in a destitute state ? — Not very many. 13.373. Have you many widows in the parish left with children ? — We have a good many widows on one farm ; they became widows in one day, in consequence of a whole boat's crew having been lost, six years ago. They keep the farm which their husbands had ; none of them are on the poor's roll. 13.374. Do they contrive to bring up their families on their croft ? — Yes. 13.375. Are their children fit to do anything for them ? — Some of them are. 760 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Examinations. 13,376. Have they much difficulty in bringing up their children ? — Yeg. A subscription Edinburgh. -^g^ made in some parts of the countiy to rear them ; and some assistance was got from Aber- Rev.J.P'inlayson. deen, by the influence of friends. This happened before I went to the parish. 26 .May l!)^3. 13,377. Have you many orphans or deserted children ? — Just one orplian. 13.378. How is the child taken care of? — He is kept in clothing by the session, and he wanders about among the neighbours. 13.379. Does he stop for any length of time in one house? — Not above a week. 13.380. Are the people kind to him ? — Yes. He might be belter off if he was of good character. I boarded him with myself, and was willing to take the whole charge of hmi, but he would not stay. 13.381. Do vou think his character has been influenced by the way in which he has been brought up ? — I think so. We sent him to school, but he would not stay at it. He wanders from house to house. 13.382. Have you got any fatuous persons in the parish? — Only one lunatic. 13.383. How is he taken care of? — He lives with his father. 13.384. Is anything given to the father ? — Five shillings in the year are given to his father on his behalf, from the parish funds, 13.385. What can the os. provide for him ? — A pair of shoes, or a shirt. 13,380. The principal burden of maintaining him falls on his friends and neighbours? — Yes. 13.387. Do the heritors contribute to the maintenance of the poor by voluntary subscrip- tions ? — No. 13.388. You have not received anything from the heritors ? — Not since I went there. 13.389. Do the poor beg among their friends ? — Yes. 13.390. Do they confine themselves to any particular day ?^-They go when necessity urges them, and receive meal and potatoes, or whatever the people have to give them, and take them to their huts, or to the houses of the people with whom they live. 13.391. How do they get the means of clothing? — Altogether from their friends. 13.392. Do you think an assessment could be raised in the parish, for the maintenance of the poor? — I do not think it,-— it is a most poor place. 13.393. Would there be many people capable of paying it, except the heritors ?— ~I do not tliink it. 13.394. Would you recomn'iend, if there were to be an assessment, that it should be paid in money or in kind ? — In kind, 13.395. Would it lessen the burden of those who maintain the poor, if there were an assessment laid on ? — No : the people are very kind to the poor among them. 13,39(5. Do the people who now muiutiun the poor consider it a great burden? — Some of them do, 13.397. There are others who do not complain? — Others who do not complain. 13.398. Have you any large tacksmen in the parish ? — Only one. He is ground officer there. He haa a farm in my 2)arisli, and another m another parish. His dwelling house is in another parish. 13.399. Does he assist the poor? — Yes, 13.400. Then I am to understand that the poor are supported chiefly by people almost as poor as themselves ?— Exactly so. 13.401. Do you think that any evil arises to the character of the people from the practice of begging in yoiur parish ? — I am not awi\re of any description of evil that arises from the habit. 13.402. Are they honest, notwithstanding their begging habits ? — Yes. 13.403. What are the means of education ? — We have two schools, — one a General As- sembly's school, another a Gaelic society's school, which itinerates froni time to time, 13.404. Are the means of education sufficient? — Not at all. 13.405. Do you think it of consequence that the youth should be properly educated?— Yes. 13.406. Would it make them more independent ? — Yes j and more ablo to do for them- selves. 13.,407. Is the want of the English language an obstruction to finding employment ?— Yes, very few of them go anywhere except to Caithness, and that in the wav of fishing. 13.408. It prevents them from settling in the low country? — Yes, some of them go to Hudson's Bay. They served an apprenticeship there, and came back and told us that the want of the English language was a very grefit want, We have very few educated in the English language. 13.409. Have you medical attendance for the popr In your parish ? — None, Our medical man lives thirty miles away — in Stomoway Re oply comes amongst us when au extraor- dinary case calls him. Messages are srnt to him, and he prescribes by letter, 13.410. Are any medicines kept in the parisli? — None. AVhen the cholera was raging, Mrs Stewart Mackenzie sent a medicine chest. Since that year there has been none, 13.411. Are the people provident? — They are very provident. They cannot provide much for old age. The old people depend on their offspring. 13.412. Have they any means of subsistence except the produce of their erofts? — No other. They sell their cattle sometimes. They bring them to market twiee a year. The > j)roprietor is a distiller, and he takes their gniin fn>in them. 13.413. What is the general food? — Barley bread, very little oatmeal, pease and potatoes, and fish. 13.414. Can you ^ve us any Idea what it costs to keep a labouring man for a week in Hie POOH LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 761 conntiy ? —I cotild not tell that. There are no day labourers, every person is employed in Examinations, agriculture or fishing. _ E dinburg h. 13,415. {Mr Twisleton.) — Does it ever happen that persons belonging to your parish be- j^^ j Finlayson come paupers in other parishes ? — I am not aware that they do generally. 20 M;ty 1U4X 13,410. Have any applications been made to you from any other parish for the support of a pauper who had resided in your paiish, but left itfor another? — No application was ever made to me to that effect, except one. I declined giving any assistance, because the woman had left my i)arish, and had been more than a year in tiie other parish. I told her she be- longed to another parish now ; and I consequently declined giving her anything, i;5,4l7. Did you meet with any opposition? — No. 13,4l!S. Had you a letter fi-om the parish ? — No, the woman herself applied. 115,411). What do you hold to be the law of settlement in the Highlands ? — We think that when a T)erson is six weeks in a parish, that he becomes a parishioner of that parish. 13.420. And you have not met with any ease in which a different view of the law of set- tlement has been pressed on you ? — Not one. 13.421. You state tliat all the people are agricultural labourers and fishers, — I presume that all the agricultural labourers have crofts ?— Yes, One man from the family attends the fishing, and others stay at home and work on the croft. 13.422. What is the average size of a croft ? — ^I sliould thinli between sL:? or spv^n acres, so far as I can judge, but I cannot speak positively. 13.423. What is the rent usually paid ? — il. or bl. 13.424. Are there any small crofts of one or two acres ? — No. 13.425. During the year 1842, you say in your return that the amoimt of the collections was 11. lOs. 9^d,, and that the amount distributed was 4^. 16s. 6d. only, — what was done with the remainder ? — Kept in possession of the session-clerk till recpiired. 13.426. For the poor of the next year ? — -Exactly so; or for a more distressing year than ' usually happens. We keep a few pounds in our hands for more distressing times. 13.427. You have six on the occasional roll, and thirty-one on the permanent roll ? — rYes, — the thirty-one are all old people. 13.428. Ilave they long resided in the parish ?-«-Yes ; so far as I know, they have resided all their life in th« parish. 13.429. There has been a considerable increase of population in your parish? — Yes. 13.430. You state in your return that early marriages is one of the sources of poverty in the parish ? — Yes. 13.431. And that the males generally marry between twenty-two and twenty-four years of age, and sometimes younger ? — Yes. 13.432. Do you think that the poor having things in common, may contribute to early marriages ?— ;The ])rincipal reason is, that when the parents become old, they insist on their sons to marry, and bring their wives home. Sometimes there are two famiUes in one croft ; and it is not sufficient to maintain them both. 13.433. AVhy does an old man wish his son to marry ? — To help to maintain him when he is unable to work himself. 13.434. Could the son not maintain him if unmarried? — No, — he has little but what he gets from her father. 13.435. How is he better able to maintain his father by marrying? — He works the croft, 13.436. AVhy not work the croft without marrying? — He would not have a croft without marrying. 13.437. Could he not work his father's croft ? — He could work the croft ; but it is reckoned the better mode to get a wife. 13.438. What class of persons marry earliest, — the poor, or those who are tolerably well off? — Tliose th;it are better off. They are almost all on the same footing, howevei', in regard to poverty. , Rev. Bohert Finlayson, Locb.s, Ivxamined :-^^ Rer. E. Finlayson. 13,430. (Mr Campbell.) — You are minister of Lochs ? — Yes. 13.440. In what synod is your parish ? — In the synod of Glenelg, 13.441. How long" have you been minister of Lochs? — Twelve years. . 13,442. Had you been in any parish before that ?^Yes, the parish of Knocks. 13.443. Have you had an opportunity of making a return to the queries sent to you? — Yes. 13.444. You have fiftv-five poor on your perm.anent roll, and fomteen on the occasional roll, I see by this return ? — Yes. 13.445. What is the highest allowance paid to any of these paupers ?— -Five shillings in the year. I3,44(i, That allowance is not sufficient to support any one ?— No. 13.447. How are the poor supported in your parish ? — By relations and friends of their own. They get nothing from us, except 5». in the year to some ; 38. to others, and 2s. 6d. to some otliers. There is no public provision for the poor in the parish ; they live on the kindness of their friends, and on charity. 13.448. In what condition are they, compared with those who work? — Tiie common 5E 762 MINUTES OF EMDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaininatious. fishennan 18 much better off; but they are all poor. They depend on the fisliing. They fro Ed .xbiuo h. to Caithness to fish. Kev. K. I'inlavsoii. 13,44!1. \\'ould you !»ay that the poor are badly taken care of, or well taken care of, by •it; May uiiy. their friends and neighbours ? — Then- friends pay them all the attention that they can ; l)ut they cannot entirely support them. 13.450. Do any except the fishermen and crofters support the poor? — No. There are only three men in the })arish that may be called tacksmen, — there are no sub-tenants ; there arc only three that pay upwards of 20/. a year. 13.451. Do they give the poor any provision when they go to their houses ? — Nothing more than other people, unless they give them a night's lodging. 13.452. What sort of houses liave the poor ?— Their houses are of the poorest description, perhaps, in the kingdom. 13.453. Have they houses of their own ? — Some of them live with their friends, or perliaps have bothies near their friends. 13.454. What are they made of? — -Turf, and what we call divots, and thatched with heather. 13.455. Are all the houses in the parish of a very poor desciiption ? — ^Yes, there is scarcely one house better than another of the lower order. 13.456. How are orphans taken care of in your parish ? — There is no provision for orphans, so far as I know. They live with their relations, and we give them a little from the poor's fund. 13.457. Aj-c you able to give them as much as will clothe them? — No, we do not give more than 5s. to any of them. 13.458. Then they are clothed as well as fed by their fi-iends and neighbours ? — Yes. 13.459. Do they live in one place, or travel about? — They live in one house ; but I have seen some of them, very few of them however, going from house to house. They live along with their relations, so far as I know. 13.460. How ai-e the fatuous taken charge of? — Likewise by the relations. We give them a little money, as we give to other poor ; but there is no provision for them. 13.461. Are any of them violent lunatics ? — No, so far as I know. 13.462. Do the poor of the parish go about begging from house to house? — Some of them go fi'om house to house, and others are supplied by their friends. 13.463. Have you beggars from the \o^v country amongst you ? — Yes, but not many ; it is so expensive to go there ; and they cannot easily get at us. 13.464. Have any of them been found troublesome or violent, demanding charity if a person refused it ? — None of that description. 13.465. Do you think an assessment for the poor could be levied in your parish ? — I scarcely think it ; at all events the people are so very poor tliat they could give but very little. 13.466. Could any of them pay except the heritors? — I think not. 13.467. If an assessment were laid on, would it be better to pay it in kind? — It would, but they have very little even in kind. 13.468. Would it be a relief to those who support the poor, if there were an assessment for their support ? — Yes, but I do not see how the parish could pay an assessment. They are generally poor altogether. The whole population would be regarded as poor in other parts of the country. 13.469. What is the general extent of the crofts? — Some are only about an acre in extent ; others an acre and a half. You would be astonished how these crofts can support any of them. Fishing is their principal support. They go to other parts, and fish herrings. 13.470. There is no occupation for them at home, except on their crofts? — None that I know of- They fish a little at home. 13.471. Are you satisfied with the means of education in your parish? — ^I think the means too scanty ; but, however, we have our share of what is going in other parishes. Wo have four or five teachers from different societies. 13.472. Are they generally efficient teachers? — Yes. 13.473. When a person is well educated, does it increase his ability to get on in the world? — Yes; there are some who get on well in the world after leaving the schools. 13.474. The people have not the means of laying up any provision for age and infinnitj' ? — No. 13.475. Do all the children in your parish, of a proper age, attend some or other of the schools of which you have now spokeii ? — They do generally, so far as I know : no doubt there ai"e some exceptions. Some parents are careless ; but I may say generally that, with few exceptions, they do attend the schools. 13.476. In the case of exceptions, would not the minister and elders represent to parents the duty of not neglecting the valuable opportunity ? — Yes, I do that. 13.477. Have you reason to believe that any children are suffered to grow up, in your parish, in a state of ignorance, incapable of reading or writing ? — -There may be a few. I advise them all to send their children to school; and they are generally sent; but, notwith- standing, the parents are sometimes careless. 13.478. Do they pay fees ? — They pay no fees in the Gaelic schools ; but they pay in the English schools. 13.479. Do you find that the young people educated at these schools are of more enlarged mmds than the generation preceding them? — Yes; and they have more knowledge of the principles of religion than their fathers. Very fcAv of the old people can read. 13.480. And, in consequence of the improved education, do they manifest a greater anxiety POOR LAW INQinHY CO:M^nSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 763 to get into circumstances of comfort and independence either by leaving home, or putting fortli greater energy in ordinary employment ? — Yes; but the parents are afraid to give them too good an education, in case they leave them ; that is the reason ; they will send them, however, to the Gaelic schools iis long as you please. 13.481. But they are getting better in this respect now? — Yes; they go more now to other places ; to Caithness, for instance, and see what is going on there. 13.482. Do you find the greater proportion of those engaged in Caithness fishing, or other employments, displaying otherwise an anxiety to improve their circumstances by leaving home ? — Yes ; all those who attend the fishing are fonder to get their children taught read- ing and writing. 13.483. Is there any doctor or surgeon in the parish? — None. 13.484. Any midwife ? — There are women M'ho act in that way, but they are persons of no education. 13.485. Where is the nearest doctor? — In Stornoway, about nine miles from the manse, and farther off fi-om other parts of the parish. 13.486. Does he frcrpiently visit your parish ? — Yes, when called for. 13.487. Is it yoiu- practice to pay him out of the poor's fund for attending paupers : — No ; but the proprietor gives him a little ; I do not know how nmch. 13.488. Are the children in your parish vaccinated? — Some of them are. I have seen the doctor there of late in that way. He was at my house on this business, and he vac- cinated some children in the neighbourhood also. 13.489. Is small-jjox prevalent in the parish ? — There is not much of it in the parish ; but, in a parish of such extent, things may be happening at one end of it, that is not known in the other. 13.490. How long is it ? — It is thirty-five miles long, and eighteen broad. Kx.ani illations. KlIlNElRGII. \ev. K. Finlavsoii. 2« >J:iv Utl:i. Rev. Rodeiick M'Leod, Snizort, Synod of Glenelg. 13.491. (Mr Campbell.) — You are minister of Snizort? — Not now. 13.492. You were so lately ? — Yes. 13.493. How long were you in that parish ? — Five years, I think. 13.494. Have you had an opportunity of making returns to the queries sent to you by this Commission ? — I have not had time to make answers to them. 13.495. Were you also minister of Bracadale in Skye ? — Yes, for fifteen or sixteen years. 13,490. Can you tell us the number of the poor on the parish list in Snizort .'' — About 100. 13.497. What is the yearly fund arising from collections at the church door or otherwise 1 —About 121. 13.498. Does it consist entirely of collections ? — Entirely. 13.499. Is there no other provision for the poor? — None other. 13.500. What is the highest allowance to any individual on the roll .' — The greatest sum given is 5s. in the year, and that only in extreme cases. At the regular distribution the amount is generally from 2s. 6d. to 3s. 6d. 13.501. How are the i)oor maintained ? — There are two sources — the generosity of private individuals, and begging from place to place. 13.502. Have you resident heritors in the parish ? — Two. 13.503. Do they contribute to the assistance of the poor .' — No, except in the ordinary way of contributing to the church collections. 13.504. Are the poor, then, maintained by people not much richer than themselves ? — Yes. 13.505. Do they live with their friends and neighbours? — Yes. 13.506. What is their situation compared with the class immediately above them in the parish in point of comfort, — are their means of subsistence very inferior to the means of those who maintain themselves by labour ? — I cannot say that there is any great difference. The class immediately above them are very little removed beyond their own condition. 13.507. How are the people generally supported ? — In one district of the parish there are small portions of land which they rent, and in other districts there are cottars. 13.508. Is there any occupation for them as labourers in the parish ? — None but what the tacksmen give on the farms. 13.509. Is that considerable ? — No. They go to the south to get work, and generally return in the winter season. 13.510. Are they enabled to save as much money in the summer season as enables them to subsist during the winter? — Very frequently. 13.511. Is there much fishing on the coast? — Not much. The herring fishing chiefly contributes to the comfort of the poor. 13.512. Do the crofters engage in the herring fishing? — Yes. 13.513. Can you inform us what a crofter will make acting as a labourer, or acting as a servant at the herring fishing? — The tacksmen can give perhaps one shilling a day, without any provision — I would say a money payment of one shilling a day. 13.514. How are widows maintained who are left with four children, say, under ten years of age ? — Just in the same way ; there is no provision made for any class of that description. 13.515. How are orphans taken care of? — Just by their immediate friends. We perhaps Re. R, M'Leod. 7Gt mNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Exainiiiationft. may make a collection for an extreme case of destitution in a family ; but this is very rarely Ediniu'roh. resorted to. Rer. K M'LetMi 13,516. Is there any means of affording medical attendance to the poor in the parish? — 2U M»y 1843. None whatever. 13.517. Have you moans of giving them medicines? — No. 13.518, No surgeon nor doctor in the parish ? — No. 13,511). Have they ever suffered much from being neglected .' — Very much, generally speaking. The minister, or the minister's wife, is the doctor of the parish. 13.520. Where does the nearest medical man to you reside 1 — In Portree, fifteen miles from the extremity of the parish. 13.521. Are you satisfied with the means of education in the parish ? — Not at all. 13.522. Are the schools not sufficient in number, or are the teachers inefficient ? — We were unfortunate in our parish teacher, — he was a little deranged. We made some efforts to get rid of him, but did not succeed. The school is useless, and has been so for years. There is another school in the parish endowed by a gentleman who left the country many years ago, and we have some Gaelic schools ; that is the amount of education. 13.523. Do you consider that education is apovverful source of raising the condition both in a moral and intellectual point of view ?~Decidedly ; it tends to prevent destitution and poverty. 13.524. Have the people of Snizort any means of making any provision for old age ? — No. 13.525. What is the average condition of the youth in that parish with respect to intel- lectual, and moral, and religious culture ? — Their intellectual condition is of the very lowest description, excepting in one school, and in an Assembly school at^ the other end of the parish, which is very efficiently taught. 13,52(5. Are the Gaelic schools well taught ? — Very well taught, 13.527. Is the education given to the poor of such a character as to enlarge the minds of the young people ? — Yes ; it conveys a desire for farther education. 13.528. Have you seen an anxiety arising from that, to apply themselves to occupations in their native country, or to emigrate, and exert themselves elsewhere ? — I have seen a dis- position to emigrate in consequence of education ; but in regard to employment at home, there is no field for it. 13.529. What is the education in the Gaelic schools ? — Just the mere reading of Gaelic. 13.530. Are any children of an age fit to be at school suffered to grow up without be'.ng able to read Gaelic ? — I should say very few. 13.531. Is education in such a state of advancement as to contribute in a marked manner to the enlargement of the public mind in the parish ? — I do not think it is. 13.532. (Mr Twisleton)^^Aie the children in your parish vaccinated generally. — Generally. 13.533. By the doctor from Portree ^ — Not so much by the doctor, but most frequently by the minister. 13.534. Are early marriages coiiamon in your parish ? — Not so common as they were a few years ago. 13.535. At what age do people marry ? — .Generally between twenty and thirty ; there are very few instances of marriages under twenty. 13,530. Do you consider the population as redundant ? — According to the present ar- rangement of the land it is. 13.537. Under what arrangement would you have it ? — There are too many subdivisions, I would have large tacks. When I went to Bracadale a great many people disposed of their little lands, — the property was converted into money which was soon spent, 13.538. Did they not emigrate ? — Some did — not many. 13.539. Was the means not given them to emigrate ? — No. 13.540. Have emigrants gone from your parish ? — A good many ; I could not say how many, — perhaps oOO or 400 since I went there. 1;-},541. Supposing the arrangements to remain as they are, would it be possible to bene- fit the island to a considerable extent without promoting emigration ? — I do not see how it can be benefited, the arrangements continuing as they are, without promoting emigration, or without public works established there. 13.542. (Mr Robertson.) — In regard to those parts of the parish where the subdivisions of farms still continues, are the people living in those small crofts in full employment through- out the year ? — Not at all. 13.543. Would not the multiplication of small crofts have the tendency to keep them in a state of inactivity for a certain time during the year ? — Yes ; but I do not advocate very small crofts. 13.544. Do you conceive, looking at the matter in a practicable point of view, that any adequate remedy remains iDut emigration ? — I cannot condescend on any. A legal provi- sion for the poor might be suggested ; but with many that is a doubtful point. No doubt it might benefit a good many of the poor. 13.545. But could a legal assessment, adequate to the wants of the poor, be levied ? — Not without great injury to the landlords. 13.546. Do you know the rental of the parish ? — It is very considerable, — I should sup- pose it would be upwards of 2000/. a year. 13.547. What is the population ?— 3000 souls. 13.548. Would not almost the whole of the 2000/. be swallowed up by an adequate provision being made for the poor ? — Yes ; but it is my opinion that our poor people would be very easily satisfied. POOR LAW INQUIRY COINEVIISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 765 13.549. {Mr Twisleton) — The standard of living is low ? — .Yes. 13.550. Do you, or do you not, desire an assessment for the impotent ? — I am not in condition to answer that. l;),551. What size of farm would you propose, supposing the land to be divided again? — They should have portions of land paying rent from 10/. to 50/. a year. 13.552. How many acres would such farms give \ — A great many acres. A farm at 50/. a year would be a very large farm, 13.553. Measured more by miles than acres ? — Yes, by miles. 13.554. Do the tacksmen generally reside in the parish? — Yes. 13.555. Have you anything to suggest as an improvement in the poor laws ? — I could not offer any particular suggestion. There must be some provision for the poor. 13,55C). An assessment has never been attempted in any parish in which you have been clergyman ?— Never. 13.557. Therefore you cannot say how it would work ? — I do not think it would do well except the heritors agreed to it. I told them that if they gave us 30/. or 40/. we would not trouble them with the poor at all. 13.558. If they were to contribute as in other places, would that be sufficient ? — ^Yes. 13.559. Would it not injure private charity ? — Perhaps it might. 13.560. Does private charity tend to promote their prosperity ? — No, it just keeps them alive, that is all. 13,5G1. Does it promote kindly feeling? — .Yes, without it the poor people would starve. 13.562. Has poverty not a tendency to promote early marriages .' — I do not think it. Our early marriages are almost always love marriages. 13.563. But supposing a man in love, if he knew when married that he would not be able to maintain his family, but that they must depend for their support on friends and neighbours, would he be likely to marry in such circumstances? — Love is blind in many respects, but particularly so in improvidence. 13.564. Would prudential considerations not have influence among the Highlanders ? — It appears to me that they are beginning to feel the weight of prudential considerations. I have been lecturing them on that subject. 13.565. {Mr liobei'tson.) — Would not the existence of an assessment have a still more powerful effect in encouraging early marriages, with the expectation and assurance that they would be supported if in poverty ? — I do not think it, because it does not enter into the minds of young able-bodied people that they will become fit objects for charity. 13.566. VVould not the evil be more checked by a good education, accompanied with those lectures to which you have referred ? — It might. 13.567. {Mr Twisleton.) — Have the cottages of the people increased sit all in comfort? — ■ I only wish that you saw some of their cottages and furniture. I have gone into many where I could hardly get a seat to sit on. The cottage consists of a wall, formed of a heap of stones, and a few sticks, and straw and thatch above them, — perhaps the whole one apart- ment inside. 13.568. If an improvement were taking place in their condition, and in their comfort, would not this operate as a check on early marriages ? — Yes. 13.569. {Mr Campbell.) — Do you not think that the refraining, by the heritors of the parish, from giving assistance to the poor, throws an undue burden on their neighbours 1 — ■ I do decidedly think so. Kxaminntions. Edinbiikoh. Rev. R. M'l.tod. ir, May 1»43. Bev. Adam Rettie, Evie and Rendal, Examined : — 13.570. {Mr Campbell.) — You are assistant and successor in the parish of Evie and Ren- dal, in the presbytery of Kirkwall ? — Yes. 13.571. How long have you been there? — Since 1841. 13.572. You have taken part in the management of the poor's fund in your parish ? — Yes, as moderator of session. 13.573. What is the nature of the parish ? — It is chiefly on the main land. There are two parishes, Evie and Rendal, with a small island attached to Rendal. 13.574. What is the population of the two parishes ?— According to the last census the population of Evie, I think, was 907 ; but I am not exactly sure of the number. There were some visitors in my house when the census A^as taken, which was on the Monday of my sacrament, so that they were reckoned in the population. If I recollect right, Rendal stood at 601, making 1508 altogether. 13.575. What is the number of paupers on the poor's roll? — As far as I recollect, about forty in both parishes ; but I am not sure as to the number, it is a mere guess. We divided the money the week before I came south, and I think that was about the number. 13.576. What may be the average allowance of each pauper? — I think the smn to each for the last half year was 28. 6d., but I am not certain. 13.577. What do you in general give to an aged man or woman in the course of the year? — It depends on the cireumstance whether they are more or less needy. Their neighbours are exceedingly kind to the poor, and our funds are but small. The allowance that our funds will allow us to give is from 3s. 6d. to 4s. in the year. 13.578. What is the amount of the collections ? — I do not recollect. 13.579. Have you any other means except the collections for the relief of the poor? — None but the collections. Rev. A. Rettie. 766 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. 13,580. You have no iiiortificationB of any kind ? — No. Ei nxBURG n. 18,581. Have you any orphans in your parish? — I believe we have. Rev. A. Rettie. 13,582. Is there any provision made for boarding them out? — No; they depend entirely 26 Miiy i»43. on the kindness of their own friends. 13.583. Have you any lunatics in yoiur parish? — We have one or two imbeciles, but we have no lunatics. 13.584. Do you make provision for them? — ^We have no call for anything of the kind eince I was settled there. 13.585. They are supported by their relations ? — Yes ; so far a« I know. 13.586. Where is the nearest medical man to your paiish ? — Kirkwall, about fifteen miles from the manse of Evie. 13.587. Has vaccination been in practice in the two places? — Yes. 13.588. What is the occupation of the people ? — Some are farmers and some are fisher- men. Many of the young population go to the cod fishing for the London market ; and when the herring season comes on a good many go to the hen-ing fi.ihing. A ninnber of young men go to sea. They are trained in that way from tlieir youth, and are acquainted with the management of boats. Many of them choose a seafaring life. 13.589. Do the farmers occupy themselves for a period of the year in fishing ? — Yes, the email fanners. 13.590. What is the largest extent of a farm, in size or rental ? — I cannot say. 13.591. Is the standard of living high or low?-^Low, generally speaking. 13.592. Has it l)een improving, or the contrary ? — I suspect it is stationary, and has been so for some time. I scarcely think it has improved much for many years past. 13.593. lA hen an able-bodied man is in sickness, do you make any provision for them ? — Since I settled there, one man was laid up by fever, and the ^^hole family were seized with it ; we made a particular collection for the family. 13.594. At the church doors ? — We always collect in the church with the ladles. 13.595. Are any able-bodied men out of employment in the parish ? — Yes ; many of them choose themselves to be idle in winter ; they go to sea in sinimier and return. 13.596. Do they amass in summer enough to keep them in winter ?^ — I suj)pose they think so. 13.597. Have you many cases of extreme destitution in your parish ? — We have many poor, very poor people. One case occurs to me of great destitution, — an aged blind woman living by herself, no one living with her. She gets in the half year- the highest sum we can allow her, 3s. 6d., I think, or 4s. for the half year. 13.598. That could not be sufficient for the eujiply of her wants ? — Not without private charity. 13.599. Are the neighbours charitable to poor persons? — Very charitable. 13.600. Are they wealthy? — Not wealthy, considering the circumstances of the Orkney people generally ; but some of them are comfortable, and are very ready to bestow charity. 13.601. What are the means of education in the two places? — In Evie there is a paro- chial school, and in Kendal there is a school supported by the society for promoting chris- tian knowledge. In the north of Evie there is a private school taught by a person v ho had been in the navy at one time. He is a zealous teacher as far as he is able. 13.602. Are the schoolmasters all of them qualified for their duty ? — No ; the parochial schoolmaster is not qualified. 13.603. What are the branches of education taught ? — English, writing, and arithmetic. The person who has the adventure school, who was in the navy, teaches navigation. 13.604. Do the people themselves provide education for their children ? — They do. 13.605. What is the proportion in the two portions of the parish in close attendance at school ? — I forget that. I examined the society school very lately, and the parochial school I examined as a member of the committee of the presbytery some time ago, but 1 forget the number of the scholars. I can get the numbers on returning home. 13.606. Is intemperance frequent among the Inhabitants? — I caimot say that it is ; with one or two exceptions, there are very few cases of individual intemperance. 13.607. Are public houses imder good regulations ? — We have very few public houses. 13,(508. {J\[r 'J'wuleton.) — Are early marriages fi-equent among you ? — Yes; they are too frequent. ^ 13,609. At what age do persons many ? — At different ages : but some of them, in my opi- nion, marry too young. They marry frequently when they have no house to go to, and live for a considerable time in the house of the wife's relations, — that is a very genend thing. 13,610. Do you ascribe that to the low standard of living that prevails among them ? — I should tliink so. 13,()11. Is there begging In your parish? — Yes ; we have beggars from different parts of the country. Very seldom does a week pass that we have not beggars from the south. Tlic Orkney jieoplc are very kind to beggari^, and, understanding that, they come the more readily. _ 13,612. Do able-bodied men from this part of the countrj' go to your parish ? — Yes ; occa- gionally, to beg. 13.613. Do they not go to endeavour to find work ? — I do not tliink it, — tliey go for the mere purjDose of begging. 13.614. Do those persons seem to be habitual vagrants ? — I do not know. 13.615. Were their dresses those of artisans or labourers? — Some of their dresses wei'c those of artisans and labourers. 13.616. Do they remain long? — ^Not so far as I know. Scarcely a week passes but we are visited by such parties. 13.617. Have there been more of late than previously? — Yes; I rather think so. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 767 13,018. You state that during the winter the men do not work, because they did not choose Examination", to work ; would there be employment for them if they chose to work ? — There is no employ- Edinburgh. inent except on the small farms. I speak of the young men who go to sea; formerly they Rev. A. Rettie. used to go to the whale-fishing; of course that was during the summer, and they remabed 20 May I84:i. at home in winter till the vessel came round again to receive them. The whale-fishing has now very much fallen off, and instead of going to the whale-fishing they go to sea in other ehips, and staying at home is not so frequent now as when they went to the whale fishing. 13,619. Did you disapprove of their going to the wliale fishing? — I cannot say. 13 620. Woidd you object to them doing so, when there is no work for them during win- ter ?— No. 13 621. Do you blame them for it ? — I can neither blame them nor the reverse. 13 622. Do vou object to their going to the whale fishing during the summer, and being idle at home during the winter ? — They are obliged to use every shift. 13 623. Perhaps you think they might go to sea regularly ? — I do not know their circum- stances. They might not get constant employment in that way, so far as I know, I am not acquainted with sea affairs, either to be able to approve or blame them. 13,624. Do the heritors contribute to the collections in the church ? — I do not know. We have a number of small heritors, but what they give I do not know. 13,(i25. You have large heritors ? — Yes ; the greater number of whom are non-resident. 13,()26. Do they contribute ? — Not a farthing. 13.627. Have you applied to them? — 1 have not. 13.628. Would it be desirable to introduce an assessment in your parish? — I suspect it would not be desirable. 13.629. Those who do contribute to the poor do not object to the absent heritors paying nothing ? — I have heard no objections taken. We have frequently spoken of it in the session. We think that they should contribute, but it was never proposed that we should apply to them. 13.630. Are the qualifications of the society schoolmaster better than those of the paro- chial schoolmaster ? — Yes. 13,1)31. Have you any suggestion to make in regard to the poor laws? — No. I cannot say that I liave considered the subject. Rev. Duncan Clerk, Torosay, Examined : — ftev. D. Clerk. 13.632. (Mr Twialeton.) — You are minister of Torosay.'' — Yes. 13.633. State where it is situated ? — In the presbytery of Mull, synod of Argyle. 13.634. How long have you been minister of that parish ? — ^Fourteen years. 13.635. Have you answered the queries sent to you by this Commission ? — Yes. 13.636. What is the largest allowance in your parish to an old man unable to work? — Just now we do not give more than 5s. a year. 13.637. Is that the allowance to widows with children, and all classes ? — Very few of them get more than 5s. 13,()38. How do they generally subsist? — They have small bits of ground, and get cha- rity from the tenants on whose crofts they have huts. When their potatoes are done, their neighbours are willing to supply them out of their own stores. 13.639. How are orphans provided for ? — We give them 4s. or 5s. a year from the funds. 13.640. Whom do they live with ? — With some relation, — the grandmother, or nearest relation. 13.641. Is their education looked after by the kirk-session ? — Yes. 13.642. How are lunatics provided for ? — We have no lunatics. 13.643. Have you no fatuous people ? — None. My answers apply to that part of the parish in which I officiate. It is a large parish, having in it two parliamentary churches. Each of the parliamentary ministers has a kirk-session of his own, and they manage the collections in their respective districts. 13.644. Is there a doctor or surgeon in the parish ? — No. 13.645. Where does the surgeon or doctor nearest to you reside ? — In Oban. The Sound of Mull intervenes, which is ten miles broad ; so that the poor cannot have the benefit of medical assistance. There are two medical men in Tobermory, about twenty-four miles from the centre of the parish. 13,<)46. Does the parish pay a doctor for attending the poor on the roll? — We had a medical man situated with us about three or four years ago ; and when any of the poor on Colonel Campbell's property were sick, he was in the practice of asking this medical man to attend. The colonel gave him a large retaining fee ; and one of the conditions was, that he was to attend the poor on the colonel's property. But there is no medical man now. 13.647. Are the children vaccinated ? — Generally they are. 13.648. Who does it? — I am not sure if many have been vaccinated since the medical man we had has left us. 13.649. Has any person in the parish a medical chest? — Colonel Campbell has one. One of the elders bleeds. 13.650. How do the younger population subsist? — They go to the low countries for ser- vice ; and about the beginning of the year they get employment in peeling bark from the trees. Sometimes the young men go north to the herring fishing. 768 MINUTES OF E\^DENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Kxaminntions. 13,651. Have they crofts ? — Yes; but a great many of the poorer people have merely hu iKavk iiu. houses, and are allowed a little bit of ground from the person who lets them the house. ReT. D. Clerk. Ii5,()52. Do they live on the produce of their little bits of ground ? — They do, chiefly. iB May ims. l^jii.W. Do they ever get employment on the island? — Sometimes they do. A stout young man that can build gets about 71. a year, with food in his master's house. 13,(1.54. What may a day labourer earn in the day .' — Most people who have land have families of their own that can work ; but when they do require a labourer for a short time, they give one shilling a day with food. 13.655. Is there any begging in the parish ? — Yes. 13.656. What class of persons beg ? — Paupers on the roll. 13.657. Do they go from house to house ? — Yes, 13.658. Is the provision for education good on the whole ? — We have not good school- houses, — they are very inferior, and are not eifective on that account. The heritors are exempted from building school-houses, and dwelling-houses for the teachers ; and education suffers very much on that account. 13.659. (J)r M^Farlan.) — Is there not one schoolmaster's house? — ^Not even one. If we had a good school-house, and dwelling-house for the teacher, and a teacher of higher attain- ments got, it would be more of course for the benefit of education. In such a school, boys might be taught to teach in remote parts of the parish. 13.660. {Mr Twideton.) — Are the children generally taught to read English ? — Yes. 13.661. Do you find that those who are most advanced in that department are more in- clined to leave the island ? — Yes ; the more education they have, the more disposed are they to leave the island. 13.662. Have you had an extensive emigration ?^No. 13.663. Has the population increased ? — It has decreased. 13.664. Do you attribute that to their going to other parts of Scotland ? — Yes ; and it is owing to another cause, viz. the farms have been made larger. 13.665. But still as the population has decreased parties must have left the island ? — They may have gone to Tobermory and other places in the neighbourhood. 13.666. What is the condition of those on the roll compared with able-bodied persons among them ? — It is very difficult to draw the line of distinction between them. There is very little collected at the church door, 13.667. Do the heritors contribute to the collections? — Only one heritor resides in the parish, so far as I officiate, Colonel Campbell of Fossil. 13.668. Do you know any cases of extreme destitution in your parish ? — There are no extreme cases of destitution as distinguished from poverty. 13,(569. Would it be desirable to impose an assessment ?— I think it would be a better plan for the heritors to come forward with a voluntary contribution, if they could be pre- vailed upon to do so ; if not, the poor certainly would require an assessment. 13.670. Have you any reason to suppose that they will raise a subscription voluntarily? ..—I cannot say. 13.671. Would you propose to alter the law on that head on anyway ? — I should consider it desirable that the poor were better provided for than they are at present. 13.672. Do you think they would be better provided for if there were a legal assess-- ment, — would it prevent the poor from giving to those poorer than themselves ? — I am afraid it would destroy the spirit of independence ; and the poor would not be so apt to exert themselves for their own support. 13.673. Do able-bodied persons lay by for old age '( — They are able to save but very little in my part of the country. 13,()74. How are they supported when old ? — They have relatives about them who assist them in working their bit of ground, and they live on its produce and the charity of their neighbours. 13,675, Do you consider that one who depends on the charity of another is independent ? —No. 13,()76. As far as independence goes, the poor are not independent now ? — No, but it would destroy all that remains of independence, if there was a legal assessment. 13,677. You are opposed to it ? — I would have recourse to it, if the heritors would refuse to contribute voluntarily. 13,()78. Would you propose to alter the law? — If the poor law that we have were fol- lowed up, I would be content with it. 13.679. Supposing a person in a state of destitution in your parisli, is he likely to know that he has a right to relief?^ — I do not think that that is generally known. 13.680. (jWr Camphcll.) — Supposing it to be the case, that an aged poor and an impo- tent person has the right of going to thesheriff of the county, and saying that he has applied to the kirk-session and heritors, and they h.ave not sustained his call, and supposing the .sheriff has a right to take up the man's claim, and cause them to give him relief, would that be a sufficient state of the law ? — Yes. 13.681. Supposing that is the state of the law and has not been acted on, is there any thing that leads you to suppose that it will hereafter be acted on ? — I cannot say. They have not applied, because it is not known to the poor that they can have recourse on the heritors in that way. 13.682. Is there a sheriff-substitute of Tobermory ? — Yes, about twenty-four miles from Torosay. 13.683. (/>r yfFcirlan.)''-^Yo\x\\&ve referred to the existence of the spirit of independence POOR LAW INQXHRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 769 among the people of your parish — does that spirit of independence prevent them from apply- ing for private aid, except in cases of necessity ? — Yes. 13.684. Suppose them to know that they have a right to relief, would this not have a great tendency to destroy the spirit of independence ? — Yes, a greater number would apply — they vvould lose the feeling of shame. 13.685. {Mr Twideton.) — Suppose under strict superintendence, a decent provision were made for poor old people, and begging prevented, which would you prefer ? — 1 would prefer a provision made for them, either by voluntary or compulsory assessment. 13.686. {IJr M'Farlan.) — You spoke of imperfect accommodation for the schoolmaster and schools — what are the qualifications of your schoolmasters ? — The qualifications required of them are, that they be able to teach English, Gaelic, writing and arithmetic. 13.687. Are they generally qualified to teach these branches ? — Yes, but the accommoda- tion is bad, and they cannot do justice to the children. In winter the children cannot sit in the school. 13.688. Is the instruction good ? — Yes. 13.689. Do they teach the shorter catechism? — Yes. 13.690. Are all the inhabitants protestants ? — Yes. 13.691. You state in your answers that there is only one instance of desertion of a wife and children in ten years, what were the particulars of that case ? — He was not guarded in his conduct, and gave grounds of jealousy to his wife. He could get no peace nor rest at home, being constantly upbraided. He went to Glasgow and never returned. 13.692. He did not then desert his family from an unwillingness to support them? — No; but from a quarrel with his wife. 13.693. You state that relief is given to able-bodied persons on account of want of em- ployment, or in sickness, if destitute — in practice have you so relieved many ? — Not many. 13.694. Can you mention how many you have given relief to in that way of late ? — To very few. 13.695. To ten ?— No. 13.696. To five ? — No, to three or four. 13.697. Do you consider that the clergyman and kirk-session have a discretionary power to give relief in that way ? — Yes, we are never interfered with by the heritors. We would be ill off in my parish without the charity of Mrs Campbell of Fossil. She lays out 30/. in the year for meal. 13.698. Did you give more or less to the three or four able-bodied whom you relieved, than you gave to the disabled poor? — We gave them perhaps 5s. 13.699. Have you any suggestion to make in regard to the poor laws? — No ; but I am glad to find that relief can be forced. Exaniinatione. Edinburgh. Rev. D. Cleik. 26 May 1843. Fev. William Watso7i, Fetlar and North Yell, Shetland, Examined: — Rev. W.Watson. 13.700. (^fr Campbell.) — You are minister of Fetlar and North Y^ell, in Shetland? — Yes. 13.701. How long have you been there ?— Since 1830. 13.702. Have you had an opportunity of answering the questions sent to you by the Commission ? — -Y"es. 13.703. What is the largest amount given as allowance to any poor person on your poor roll ? — It is very small indeed ; in general 5s. a year only. 13.704. Is that the whole sum given to an infirm person who is unable to work ? — Y'es. 13.705. How is a widow, say with four children, under ten years of age, to be maintained in your parish ? — There is no source of maintenance for her, except tirom lier neighbours around. 13.706. Then we may understand that the poor In your parish are maintained by the kindness of their neighbours ? — In general. 13.707. Do the heritors contribute at all to the maintenance of the poor? — We have no great heritors resident. In Fetlar there is only one great heritor resident, who has been so about a twelvemonth. Since he came he has contributed a little to the kirk-session. 13.708. Are the poor obliged to go from door to door begging, or do their friends render them relief in any other way, — in their own houses for instance ? — ^The poor in several quar- ters go, or are carried, from house to house. Some of them reside in small huts, and get a proportion of meal put into them by their neighbours around. 13.709. Your parish is divided into several quarters, and the small sum that you give is divided amongst the poor of the different quarters ? — Y'es ; generally the small sum we give is chiefly for procuring little articles of clothing. Tiiey are maintained by their ncighboiu-s. 13.7 10. What is the reason of dividing the pai-ish into quarters? — In order that tlie poor may- be taken care of by those in their own quarter. 13.711. Is it a division by the kirk-session? — Yes. 13.712. Are there particular ciders appointed to take chaise of each quarter? — ^Yes, elders ' tjike charge of the several quarters. 13.713. Do you mean by quarters that the p.arlsh is made into different divisions ? — Yes. 13.714. Then the pai'ish being divided into quarters, each division takes care of its own poor ? — Yc8. 13.715. So that the poor depend on their friends and neighbours of the quarter to which they belong? — Yes. 5 F 770 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Exaniinaiions. 13,71G. Is it a regulatioii that tliey may go begging in one quarter distinct from another? Ediniiuuoh. _«.Yep. Bpv. \v. Watson. 13,717. Then a pauper is not allowed to go out of hia own quarter? — "VVe are not very 2(! May UI43. particular in regard to that ; but tliat is the regulation. The pauper goes from house to house, and gets the same maintenance that the family gets. If he is not able to go on his own feet, he must be transported on a ban-ow or casey. 13.718. Are they lodged fla well as maintained by their neighbours? — A few of them have small huts that they live in. Some of them go out to work for their neighbours when they can get •vvork, and maintain themselves in this way, — such work as stocking working, or spinning. 13.719. In this way some of them make up for their maintenance by working to their neighbours ?— Yes. 13.720. The system of maintaining the poor at the different houses is ealied quartering them ? — Yes. 13.721. Does that prevail generally in other paiishes in your neighboiu'hood ? — I believe it docs. I was in the parish of Northmavinc before, and that was the system there. 13.722. When there are orphans in the parish how are they taken care of? — I cannot well answer that question. 13.723. Is there any other means of supporting them than the kindness of their neigh- bours ? — No other means. 13.724. Have you the means of giving a larger allowance than what yoa have mentioned ? — We have not means ; but sometimes we give a few shillings more when any extraordinaiy want occurs, — the want, it may be, of clothes, or of a blanket or so ; sometimes the amount may be 10s., but that is not general. 13.725. But, in general, they depend entii'cly on the kindness of their relations or neigh- bours ? — Yes. 13.726. How often do you distribute? — Once a year. 13.727. How are lunatics in your parish taken care of? — By their friends. 13.728. Are you satisfied with the provision for education in your parish ? — Not very well. 13.729. You think it would be of advantage to have a better system established in the parish ? — Certainly, it would be a great advantage to have more means of education than we have. 13.730. Are the people anxious to have education for their children? — They are not par- ticularly anxious ; but when they have the means of sending them to school, they are ready to do it. Many of them are so poor that they cannot pay for their children. The kirk- session grant them leave to send their children to the parochial school, or school for propa- gating christian knowledge ; but the attendance is not very regular. 13.731. Are the teachers of these schools efficient? — ^They are very laborious, and have done a great deal of good. They are not college educated men, but they do very well,^— they do what we wish them to do. 13.732. What branches are generally taught ? — ^Reading, writing, arithmetic, book-keep- ing, navigation, and geography. 13.733. Are the schools English or Gaelic? — They are all English. 13.734. W^hat provision have you for medical assistance in the parish for the poor? — No provision whatever. 13.735. Is there any medical man in the parish ? — No. 13.736. Does any one keep medicine in the parish ? — I-am obliged to keep a few medicines. 13.737. And do you sometimes prescribe?— I do my best, — ^I deal in simples, like the honest man in England, " laudamy and calamy." 13.738. Is the expense of living much in your part of the country ? — To a stranger who has no means of rearing cattle it is rather expensive. 13.739. Can you state comparatively what is the state of the poor, living by the charity of their friends and neighbours in point of comfort, to that of the working classes in your parish, comparing their situation, 1 mean, with that of the working classes ? — There is not a great deal of difference. As I mentioned before, the poor go to the houses of the work- ing classes, and fare there just in the same manner that the family do. 13.740. How are they provided in clothing? — In clothing they are very badly off indeed. 13.741. Do they depend on their friends for clothing? — Some of them are almost naked, - — they are particularly ill off for blankets. 13.742. Would it be expedient to raise funds for the poor by a legal assessnlent? — I really know not how to answer that question. Some means would need to be taken to raise funds for their maintenance and clothing, but whether by assessment or not I cannot say. 13.743. You get no relief from non-resident heritors ? — We have got a little on applying to them. I have got to the amount of not more than 8/. or 9/. altogether from the heritors since I went there. 13.744. Do you think it just that the burden of supporting the poor should fall so very much on the people, getting no support from the heritors ? — No ; I have strong opmions in regard to that, which I would not like to state so strongly as I feel them. 13.745. Has the session never applied to the heritors for voluntary contributions ? — Yes ; and the request has not been so well attended to as the session could wish. 13.746. Have you beggars from other places ? — Sometimes we have a " gangeraU or twa," but not many. 13.747. {Dr M'Farlan.) — You have stated that the attendance at school is not very regu- lar, — to what do you ascribe that ? — To the poverty of the people in general, and the need they have for their children to assist them in their labours at spring time when they are 1>00R LAW INQIJIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 771 digging their land, at " the vhorin time," and peat time, and at harvest. The peat time occu- pies a long time in Fetlar. They are occupied first in cutting them, then in raising them, then in carrying tliem down to the place where they are to be boated, landing them in a certain place, and sending them home on horses. 13.748. Are young children employed in these occupations? — Yes; from eight years upwards. 13.749. "What is the proportion of the population in attendance at school? — I think I have stated that in the statistical account, but I have forgotten it. 13.750. What are the school fees? — Is. 6d. a quarter for reading, 2s. for writing, and 2s. 6d. for writing and arithmetic. The fees for higher branches are at the pleasure of the schoolmaster. 13.751. Do you pay for the education of any poor children ? — For those who apply to the session to be sent to school. 13.752. {Mr Iwisleton.) — How many children do apply during the year ?— Perhaps not half a dozen. 13.753. (D)' ACFarlan.') — You mention in your return one woman who Avas deserted ? — Her husband went to sea, and has been absent many years. She is a stout young woman with a family. She works hard for her oAvn maintenance, and receives a little supply from the session when we can afford it. 13.754. Are husbands who go to sea not in the habit of securing a portion of their wages to their families ? — That was done during the time of the war, but it is not done in mer- chant vessels. 13.755. Has there been any emigration from Fetlar at all ? — Some years ago a good many families left it ; some went to Aberdeen, some to Liverjiool, and such places. 13.756. Would it be desirable to give encouragement to emigration, considering the state of the population ? — 1 do not know if many would accept of the means of emigrating, they are all so attached to their own country ; and besides, the gi-eater part of them are indebted to their landlords, and they would not be allowed to go away without satisfying those debts. 13.757. Do you think, if a provision were made for them in the way of clothing and other- wise, they might be induced to emigrate ? — I have no doubt, that if they were freed from debt, and a provision made for them to emigrate, some of them would be very glad to emigrate. 13.758. Do you think that the population is superabundant ? — Yes ; for the ground that is occupied. Every one is a little farmer, — all of them are what we call farmers and fishers. Their possessions are very small. Each family puts a house on the ground ; and in summer time the men go to long fishing, and afterwards to the herring fishipg. The wives and daughters remain at home and manage the land the best way they can. 13.759. Have you any individuals in your parish who have not bits of land? — Very, very few. 13.760. Are those who have no land in a destitute state, or do they earn enough during one part of the year to maintain themselves during the time they are not, employed ? — 1 know of none in that situation. They maintain themselves very poorly indeed. In our island the principal proprietor, for the time he has been living in it, has been giving a good deal of work to his tenants, — he has been employing those chiefly who are indebted to him in various works that he sees necessary about his place, and he pays them one half in wages, and the other half he puts to the account of their debts and lands, — that is the method, I understand, which he pursues ; but I have no communication with him. 13.761. Have you anything to suggest in reference to improvement in the poor laws?— Nothing at present. 13.762. If anything occurs to you afterjvards will you be kind enough to send it ? — Certainly. Examinations, Edinburgh. Kev. W. Watson. 2G May 184;?. Rev. Walter Weir, Walls and Flota, Examined : — 13.763. {Mr Campbell.)— You are minister of Walls and Flota, in Orkney?— Yes, the nearest parish to the Pentland Frith. 13.764. How long have you been^in that parish ? — About six years in June. 13.765. What is the highest allowance given to an individual on the poor's roU? — I do not think I ever saw it above 5s. a year ; very few get even to that extent. 13.766. What is the general allowance? — I should think it probably is 3s. 6d. to 5s. a, year, or thereby, averaging about 4s. 13.767. You have no means of giving a person more than 5s. who is unable for employ- ment? — No other means. There is scarcely such a thing as squalid poverty among us. Those who are able employ themselves in fishing ; and if they are not able they get fish from their neighbours, and they get peats for the taking. We have scarcely anything like abject poverty, such as I have seen in Edinburgh, and elsewhere. 13.768. Tlien the people who can work furnish theu- poor neighbours who cannot work with fuel and with food ? — Yes. The people are extremely kind to one another. They return one act of kindness for another. They do not give money, for they have little money amongst them ; but they are kind to one another in giving food. They give the poor meal and fish, and assist them to get fuel. 13.769. Do the poor on the roll in this way live nearly as well as those who supply them vrith provisions ? — I am scarcely prepared to say that. Eev. W. Weir. 772 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examhiations. 13,770. "V\Tiat line can be drawn between them ? — Those on the poor roll do not certainly Eu iNHURo ii. liyg equal to small farmers ; but they are provided for so as to be saved from actual want. Rev. W. Weir. 13,771. What is the condition of their houses ? — They have cottages of their own. They 2C May 1843. are very much in debt to their landlords. There are two principal heritors, the crown and INIr Heddlc, who have the land divided between them. I have been prevented from applying to INIr Ileddle, because I know the people are much in debt to him. The only tiling of a voluntary subscription I got, was a few years ago from the crown. 13.772. Have you such a thing as quartering in your parish? — Scarcely; there may be one or two instances of it, but nothing of any consequence. 13.773. It is not the custom to divide tho pirish into quarters for the maintenance of the poor ? — No. 13.774. When you have orphans in the parish, how are they taken care of? — There is only one that may be properly called an orphan who is unprovided for. The child lives with an imcle who is very kind to him. 13,77.5. When you have lunatics or fatuous persons in the parish, how arc they taken care of? — I do not know. There are not any who come legally under the denomination of lunatics. We have two who are raised a little occasionally. We have three idiots. 13,77(5. How are they taken care of ? — By their friends, and we give them a little amongst the rest at the usual time. We have no regular provision for them. Occasionally we make a collection for jiarticular purposes ; for instance, a poor woman's house was blown up with gunpowder, and we collected so much for her. 13.777. Is there any provision for furnishing medical attendance to the poor when in sickness ?— No. The people are remarkably healthy. There has been no such thing as an epidemic since I went amongst them. The small-pox has been two or three times in the , island, but never went beyond one house. They do not require medical attendance. I have a medicine chest, and supply them with medicines when necessary ; and that suffices for their ordinary wants. I have a medical dictionary which I occasionally consult, and teU them what medicines they require to take. 13.778. Where is the nearest doctor resident ? — ^At Margaret's Hope, a distance of five miles. 13.779. Are you satisfied with the state of education? — Vfe have two parish school- masters. The parish is divided by the Bay of Longhopc, and we have a schoolmaster at each side of the bay ; and we have a schoolmaster supported by the society for propagating christian knowledge in the island of Flota, and another school — a subscription school — at Walls. I examined them lately. There may be about 200 scholars. 13.780. Are the schoolmasters efficient? — I am satisfied with the present efficiency of the schoolmasters. 13.781. Is the mode of living very reasonable in your parish — are the provisions cheap or dear ? — The major part of the poor, Avith the exception of those on the roll, have aU farms, and raise bear and oats for meal ; and in years when the harvest is good, they generally contrive to have enough to serve them during the year. AVhen tlicy buy provisions, the oat- meal has of late years cost them, on an average, 15s. or 16s. a boll, and peats, probably, at about 2s. 6d. a barrel. 13.782. Is the standard of living high or low ? — Very low, — it is principally fish ; but they have all pigs, and kill them at stated times. They have probably a few sheep also. They eat very little animal food. We never pay for the largest cod above 2d. ; they are not quite • so large as you may get in the market here, but they are of excellent quality ; a small one costs no more than a penny. 13.783. What is the price of labour ? — Is. G^l. ; and the man generally gets his breakfast and dinner. 13.784. What are servant's wages ? — I give to my grieve SI. a year ; and he has an allowance of so much meal and bear in the year, besides peats, and he is allowed to keep a cow. 13.785. Is that the common allowance? — It is not so high in general. Mr Heddle gives rather more than that, in one or two instances, to the upper class of servants. 13.786. What is the ordinary rate of wages ? — Some run as low as 3Z. or il., with such allowances as I have mentioned. 13.787. AM early marriages frequent among them. I do not know that they are very frequent ; but we had a great number last winter within ten weeks, — I married ten in ten weeks ; and the major part of them must have been young. 13.788. Were there many of them under twenty ? — ^I do not think any of them are under twenty ; on an average they might be about twenty-five. 13.789. Does emigration take place to any extent ?— No. Last year with men, their wives and families, the emigration did not exceed twenty or thirty. 13.790. Are they in the habit of going to the low lands? — No. There is very little vari- ation in the population. They are extremely fond of their own country. They go some- times to a distance, and very often return. 13.791. In respect of clothing, are they comfortable and respectable? — Very much so. The children, in some cases, are poorly clothed ; but on Sabbath the church presents as respectable an appearance as any common church can. 13.792. Is there much intemperance among them ? — I could not say it prevails ; it does exist in two or three cases ; but I would say, in general, that they are temperate. 13.793. Your parish is on the coast? — Yes, Flota is an island, and under the charge of a missionary. 13.794. Is there any smuggling about the parish, or dealing in contraband goods ? — Not to any great extent. I believe it prevails more in Flota than in Walls. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 773 13.795. Has it an injurious tendency on the morals of the people? — Very much so. The only instance that has come under my personal knowledge, (although I am aware that they go oft' in piloting vessels, and probably get sometimes a few bottles of brandy or rum,) was this, that last year two men went off and brought ashore some contraband goods. I went to them, and they acknowledged their fault. I kept them back from the sacrament for it. 13.796. Would an assessment be agreeable in a parish like yours, where the people are so kind to one another ? — I do not think it. I am satisfied that something is necessary to give the session more funds, but I fear an assessment might bear in two ways — it might destroy that spirit of kindness that exists amongst them ; and I think, if an assessment were brought on the landlords, the poor being so much in their debt, they would be sold out, and not allowed to sit free. But something is quite necessary to be done. My own impression is, that if the heritors would give a voluntary collection, it would be the best mode. 13.797. Is that what you suggest as an improvement in the administration of the poor law in your parish ? — So far as I am able to judge. 13.798. You applied to the crown for a contribution ? — Yes, and got a donation of 101. 13.799. Does the non-payment of the rents of those small tenants arise mainly from the poverty of the tenants, the highness of the rents, or the leniency of the landlords? — I think that poverty is the chief cause. They have food and fuel, and manage to get some little clothing ; but they have no way of making money, except they sell their pig, their sheep, or their cow. 13.800. What may be the size of the farms the tenants of which are so much in debt ? — The small tenants that arc cottars have nothing but a cottage, and a yard for cabbages, and a small bit of ground, not more than five or six times larger than this room. 13.801. AVhat may be the nominal rent ? — Some of them have built their o\vn cottages ; but where they have been built for them, the rcnt may be from 1^. to 21. 13.802. Do you allude to paupers, when you speak of those who are in debt to the land- lords ? — I allude simply to paupers. 13.803. Ai-e many of them not paupers who are tenants at will, sitting for a year ? — There is scarcely such a thing as a lease. AU are tenants at will, with two or three exceptions. 13.804. But in practice are they not retained on the farms? — Yes, they are retained. They are never removed when they pay their rent. 13.805. What are the houses generally buUt of ? — Of stone. Fires are all upon the hearth, and in some cases the chimney is in the middle of the roof. I358O6. In regard to the state of education, have you anything to suggest ? — I wish to state in reference to education, that the small island of Fara, containing about fifty or sixty inhabitants, has no schoolmaster. Of this population, about seventeen or eighteen are chil- dren, and should be at school. The inhabitants have no means of educating their children, except by employing a schoolmaster for themselves, and they are unable to do so. They must either have a schoolmaster occasionally, or send their children over to Flota or Walls, which they cannot do. The people have applied to me to get them a schoolmaster. I ap- plied to the General Assembly, but they would not grant a schoolmaster, the number of children being so few. 13,807. You would like to have a provision made for them ? — Certainly. They have great need of it. Examinations. Edinburgh. Rev. W. Weir. 26 May 1843. Hev. JoJin Swanson, Small Isles, Examined : — Rev. J. Svanson. 13.808. {Mr Campbell^ — You are minister of Small Isles ? — I was. 13.809. Name them ? — Rum, Eig, Muck, and Cana. 13.810. Have you made a return to the queries sent to you by this Commission ? — Yes. 13.811. What is the largest allowance given to any person on the poor's roll? — We have no i>oor's roll. 13.812. How do poor people live who cannot maintain themselves by their labour? — Merely by private charity. 13.813. Do widows and young children subsist on private charity also ? — Yes. 13.814. Are there no public ftinds for the maintenance of the poor? — None of any kind, except a small mortification, about 40^. or 50^. ; the interest of that goes to the poor of the parish. I only received the interest for one year. 13.815. Are the poor supported in anything like comfort ? — Not In comfort. 13.816. How are they in respect of situation compared with the other poor people on the island who maintain themselves ? — 1 would say it is much inferior. 13.817. Do the heritors of the parish never contribute anything to the maintenance of the poor ? — In Cana the heritor is resident. I do not know what he gives ; but the poor people do not complain in regard to this. He is, I believe, rather liberal. 13.818. Is there any medical man in the parish ?— None. 13.819. How are the poor attended in cases of sickness ? — I attend them as well as I can. 13.820. Do you give them medicines ? — Yes. 13.821. How are you satisfied with the provision for education in Small Isles? — Our parish school is confined to Eig ; there is no school in any of the other islands. The people in Cana and in Rum employed a young man to teach their children ; but this is a very in- efficient system. 13.822. Are the people anxious to have education for their children ? — Upon the whole, I think they are. 774 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Examinations. Kdin'bvboh. Rev. J. Swanson. 26 May 1843. 13.823. In what branches are they instnicted ? — In reading, writing, and arithmetic. 13.824. During the time you A\ere minister of Small Isles, were there any fatuoua persons or idiots in the parish ? — I am not aware that there were any. 13.825. I understand that there is an excellent plan of management in the island of Cana, and that the poor are well off there ? — The poor are as well ofi' in the island of Cana as in any part of the Highlands. 13.826. Do the other heritors of the pai-ish not send money for the relief of the poor? — Not a fraction that I am aware of. 13.827. Do you think there is any reason why they should not be as well off in the other islands as in Cana, if a similar management was adopted ? — No ; if the proprietors would treat the poor in the same way that they are treated in Cana. 13.828. The sole cause of the difference in their condition is the different manner in which the property has been managed in the different places ? — Precisely so. 13.829. Are you acquainted with the neighbouring island of Coll ? — No. 13.830. Can you state what is the system of management adopted in Ciuia? — ^There is no sub-letting, — the proprietor has the whole of the island in his own hands. He first of aU removed what he considered the surj)lus population. I believe that were the property in any other hands the population would still be considered superabundant. I think even now that it is over-peopled. 13.831. Are all the children taught English as well as Gaelic? — Not all; we have a Gaelic school not connected with the other. 13.832. Ai-e there any Koman Catholics resident in any of the islands? — ^In Eig there are. 13.833. Is there a disposition to emigrate among the people, if means were afforded them ? — Yes, a considerable number this year are emigrating from Eig. 13.834. In the islands generally, if means were affbi'dcd them, would they go to Canada or elsewhere.'' — I am persuaded that nothing but absolute distress in the paiish would induce them to emigrate, they are so much attached to their native parish. 13.835. Is that feeling a reasonable one, oris it a misfortune to the people? — A misfortune to them, if they coidd be better provided for abroad. 13,83C. Have you told them yourself that they should leave? — I have frequently spoken to them on the subject ; but I do not possess such knowledge of any of the colonies that would warrant me to advise them strongly to go. The emigration from Eig is to Cape Breton ; and they are to be placed very far back, which is a great misfortune. 13.837. Are the people better off who remained behind than those Avho emigrated from Rum some years ago ? — No ; those who emigrated had small farms of their own, and were much better off than the present inhabitants, with the exception of the shepherds and others who remain by sufferance. 13.838. Is it yoiu: opinion that the island was not benefited by the emigration that then took place ? — All the benefit was, that it threw the whole of it into the hands of one tenant. 13.839. It appeal's from your return that 500 at one period emigrated from the island, — do you think that those who remained behind were not bettered on that account ? — Those 500 constituted almost the whole j^opulation of the island. A considerable number of the poor in Rum come from another parish. ' 13,840. It encouraged the emigration of some from the neighbouring islands into Rum, who were worse off? — I observe that those who came into Rum were brought in by the tenant. 13.841. So that the removal of those 500 left too few to cultivate the land properly ? — No; it was, I believe, a matter of charity that caused him to bring them into the island. He gave them a house and croft on the island. 13.842. Supposing that had not been done, have you reason to doubt that those who remained behind woidd be better off? — No ; those who emigrated held small crofts of their own, and those who came in had no such advantages. 13.843. But supposing there had been no coming in at all? — Those who remained were merely servants, and were not better off than they were before. 13.844. They were not the worse off on account of the emigration? — I was not in the parish at the time of the emigration. Those who had holdings of their own were much more independent and comfortable than those that remained there by sufferance. 13.845. Has there been any thing approaching to famine since 1837 ? — No. 13.846. (J/r Iwisleton.) — Is there any begging in the islands ? — -Very little of what yon call real begging. The })oor are all known. They are allowed to plant a few potatoes for themselves on some farm or other, and it is on these that they chiefly live. Those who are not able to plant for themselves, are supplied by their friends and neighbours. 13.847. Do they go from house to house to ask for food? — There is a little of that; but not much. The poor, I have said, are wqW known, and are supplied by their friends and neighbours. 13.848. Do the people marry early ? — No ; they cannot now do so in Cana ; they are not allowed to build houses. This is a check on early marriages, — a check botii in Cana and Eig ; and of course they can have no place for their famiUes if they marry early. 13.849. The landlord will not allow new houses to be built? — Iso. 13.850. \\'^hat effect has that — do they go to other islands, or do they remain unmarried? — Th^y remain, with very few exceptions. 13.851. Have you found illicit connexion become more common on that account? — There has been only one case of that kind since I Avent to the parish ; but I have been there only three years. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMIkllSSION FOR SCOTLAND. 775 13.852. IIow arc tlie dwellings of the people built? — They are chiefly composed of stone, covered with turf and straw. 13.853. Have they regular chimnies ? — Only holes in the roof. 13.854. Have they regular windows ? — Only slips of glass. 13.855. Do they keep live cattle in tlieir cottages ? — Generally they do keep cows. There is generally a j)artition in the house ; the families live in the one end, and the cows are disposed of in the other. 13.856. Are there facilities of communication between yoiu: islands and Glasgow ? — Yes, the steam boats come within twelve miles of us. 13.857. What is the expense of a passage to Glasgow from Small Isles ? — In the steerage, I think, it is 5s. 13.858. Are the people in the habit of going in the harvest season to the Lothians ? — Yes ; last year not so many went, knowing that there Mere so many unemployed in the south. 13.859. This want of employment in the south crijjpled their soiurces of employment? — Yes. 13.860. In Rum, Muck, and Eig, what is the general size of the holdings? — Muck is also in the hands of the proprietor. In Eig, among the poorer people, they pay about 7/. of rent, and on the ground they possess for this they support about two cows and a few sheep. 13.861. What quantity of land have they for 71, ? — I cannot say ; the lots are not always of the same size — they vary according to the nature of the ground. 13,8t?2. Have you any suggestion to make on the poor laws ? — No. 13.863. Would it be possible to raise an assessment for the impotent poor? — No doubt, from the proprietors and large tenants. 13.864. Would small tenants be able to pay ?— I do not think it. My idea is, that their holdings are not suflScicnt to enable them to pay rent and support themselves in comfort. 13.865. Are they in the habit of giving voluntai-ily to the poor? — Yes, they give what they have. 13.866. Then they maintain the impotent themselves? — Of course, such maintenance as they have. 13.867. Suppose there was an assessment on the large tenants, would that relieve the burden on the small tenants of maintaining the impotent ? — That would depend on the ex- tent of the assessment. 13.868. Would that be better than the present plan, or would you let tilings go on as they are at present ? — It is difficult for me to give an opinion on the subject. I tliink that the proprietors should do something for the poor. 13.869. But you are not prepared to say whether you would compel them legally to do so ? — I would compel them to do something, seeing that they do nothing. It is hard that a proprietor should take away the rent of his property every year, and leave not a shilling to the poor. That is the ease in the island of Muck and Eig, — Eig especially. In Rum, they are almost all employed as servants, and so also in Muck, these being in the hands of the proprietors. I take the liberty of bringing under your notice the state of a miserable creature who was turned out of the island of Muck. He was turned adrift on the world, and was not allowed to beg on the main land. He came to Eig, and laid himself down on the shore, and lived there ; and all that he had to cover him was a bit of sail in winter. 13.870. How did you deal with this case ? — -I did not wish to advise the proprietor, knowing that he would be displeased with me if I did. In the expectation that he would be provided for some how or other, I did not wish to give him any settlement. The man got ill on the shore. I ordered my servants to carry him to my own house. None of the people would take him in. He was a poor dirty creature. I gave him leave to build a small miserable hovel for himself on my glebe, and there he is. I believe that in doing so, I have offended the proprietor. What could I do in such a case as that? It is necessary to compel the proprietors to do something; and they should not have it in their power to drive the poor from their native parishes. 13.871. How is the person you describe maintained ? — By private charity in the island of Eig. He had been of a bad character, and had been a prisoner for sheep-stealing ; but then the poor wretch was, I believe, almost forced to steal in order to subsist. That is the only very bad case that I know ; but it is too much to happen in a hundred years. 13.872. How did they get rid of him from Muck.' — I think he was legally warned out of his house. They gave him half a boll of meal to go some where else. He put himself into a boat, and wandered about for some time, and came back to Eig, which is as much his native parish as Muck. 13.873. Is it the feeling of the inhabitants in the Small Isles, that they should have some means to compel the heritors to contribute ?— I do not wish to excite them. — I do not talk to them much on the subject. 13.874. You cannot say anything on that subject? — I know it is their wish to get what they can. Perhaps they would be afraid to urge any claim on the heritors. 13.875. (Mr Campbell.) — Did you ever apply to the heritors for voluntary contributions ? — Yes, I applied to one proprietor, the proprietor of Eig ; the other is in Germany. 13.876. Have you applied to his factor ? — No. 13.877. What was the answer you got from the proprietor to whom you applied ? — He answered my first letter. I wrote to him again ; but he dropped the subject, I believe, very much in consequence of my harbouring the miserable creature whom I mentioned. Examinations. Edinbubom. Rev. J. Swanson. 2U M.iy 1843. Examinations. Edinbi'roh. 29 May 18^3. 776 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE Monday, 29rd Belhaven.') — Have the poor people gardens attached to their cottages ? — Yes. 13.908. What do they grow in them? — Potatoes, greens, and cabbages. 13.909. Docs the extent of their gardens yield them a sufficient quantity of potatoes and greens for therasolves ? — Not in some instances ; in others it may. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMillSSION FOR SCOTL.IND. 777 13.910. {Mr Twisleton.)-r~\yo any of the people go to the low country in harvest time? I— No, because we have generally a sufficiency of employment at home in harvest time. 13.911. {Lord BeUiaren.) — Do tiiey fish ? — They fieh off the coaet. A man, for instance, (nay go, after his day's work, to fish for an hour or two. 13.912. Does Mr Malcolm reside in the parish ? — Yes. 13.913. Do strangers, o»- persons from the neighbourhood, come into the parish to seek for cm{)Ioyment ? — Yes ; he is carrying on a good deal of building, and we have, in consequence, masons and tradesmen from other places ; and a few come from the immediate neighbour- hootl, who are well recomincnoscs. 13.914. Is there a good parish school?— Yes. 13.915. Are all the children educated at the parish school? — Not at the parish school. Mr Malcolm built, at his own expense, a girls' school of industry, and which he has also endowed. Most of the girls attend there, and the boys at the parish school. There are two other small schools at the remote ends of the parish. 13.916. Are they supported in any way? — Mr Malcolm gives to one of them 10/., to the other 51. The teachers have school fees besides. 13.917. Then you consider that the people are well provided with education ? — They are remarkably well provided with crd Melville.) — You are secretary to the General Assembly's committee for Mr J. Gordon, promoting education in the Highlands and islands ? — Yes. ^^ — - 13.949. Have the goodness to describe the system which the General Assembly have " "^ pursued in regard to their schools ? — In the first instance, they proceed to collect funds chiefly by means of church collections, and by voluntary contributions. That being done, they apply these funds by establishing schools in districts where the need of education is greatest, allowing salaiies to teachers, varying from 10/. to 25Z. At present they have schools on this scheme to the number of 146, and the number of pupils is rather more than 13,000. These schools are chiefly in the highlands and islands ; ninety-four are in the highlands and islands — the rest in the lowlands, and chiefly in the large towns. 13.950. All these schools are in addition to the parochial schools? — They are ; — one of the rules of the committee being, that their schools are never given to any parish that has not a parochial school endowed in tenns of the Act. There is another rule, — that the Assembly schools are never to be placed within range of those established by law. 13.951. Have you any rule as to the descri|)tion of persons admitted — whether payment is charged, or the pupils admitted gratis ? — There is no description of children excluded, — all within reach of the school, the children of dissenters, Roman Catholics, and all other denominations, are entitled to attend ; and when the jiarents of children are ascertained to be too poor to afford school fees, the teachers are instructed to give them education gratis. 13.952. Do you conceive that all children within the reach of your schools — no matter how poor their parents may be — have access to education ? — They have ; but the habit of attending our schools, as well as the parochial schools, is extremely irregular. There is a state- ment on that point given in a report which was presented to the General Assembly yesterday ; it is as follows : — " The extent to which the habit of irregular or non-attendance prevails at the ninety-four schools before referred to, appears from the following table, taken from the schoolmasters' returns ; the total attendance at these schools throughout the year being 7887. Number of the young of school age that never attended, ... ... 1732 That do not attend for more than three months in the year, ... ... 1653 That do not attend for more than six months in the year, ... ... 2975 If it concerns the church to know what amount of the population are untaught, because the means of instruction are wanting, of equal interest it must be to distinguish the more numerous class that are untaught, or not enough taught, because they declined the means of instruction within their reach. The statement now submitted discovers how far the endeavours of the committee to extend education do not succeed ; but it merits attention, also, as the specimen of an c\\\ which prevails every where throughout the country. It is sup[)osed that the resort to schools perfectly accessible, is at least equally irregular throughout the highlands and islands, and scarcely less so in many districts of the lowlands. This appears probable on considering that the Assembly's schools are, in their various appointments, better fitted to attract pupils than most others in the highlands and islands ; that their masters have been carefully chosen, after having under- gone a special preparation for their calling at the normal school ; that they afford a gratis instruction when necessary, and a supply of school requisites on the easiest terms ; that they generally possess better accommodations than are common for unendowed schools — a circumstance of no mean influence in determining the resort ; that the people are taught to value these schools by the care which this committee is seen to exercise in superintending them, and perhaps also by the greater interest with which they are sometimes regarded by the clergy of the bounds, on account of their peculiar connexion with the church. For these reasons it is presumed that the same irregularity of attendance which exists in these favoured instances may be found elsewhere in the highlands and islands, and in many parts of the low country, where the people are in circumstances pretty much alike. If so, there is pre- sented a feature in the educational state of the country that merits much attention. It would appear that if, in certain districts, there is a want of elementary education, the re- medy is not to be found in a mere increase of the number of the schools : but that there is a necessity also of altering the dispos.tion of the people towards education. It follows that the correction of the evil is not to be expected wholly from the legislature. There is no less need for the active interference, in their respective modes, of the church, the schoolmaster, and the intelligent portion of the community ; to whom it belongs in this instance to use their endeavours to ' turn the hearts of the parents to the children ;' and to beget that desire for the discipline of the schools, the absence of which must be regarded as nothing less than a moral defect, and as entailing the greatest disadvantages on their social condition." 13.953. You mentioned that there were a considerable proportion of the schools in the lowlands and chiefly in large towns.' — Yes, in Glasgow, Aberdeen, Arbroath, Greenock, &c. 13.954. Have you any observations to make in regard to the attendance at those town schools ? — In regard to these, it is not so easy to ascertain the degree of irregularity in the attendance, because there are other schools in the neighbourhood, and it is not known but that the children who are not in our schools may be attending these others. 13.955. Have you the same rules as to the schools in the large towns, in regard to the poverty of the parents? — The same,— poor children are there entitled to education gratis. 13.956. Have you any limitation as to age ? — None. The school age is commonly from the fourth or fifth to the thirteenth or fourteenth year. 13.957. (/>>• M^Farlan.) — Have you recently visited any of the schools under the General Assembly's scheme ? — Last summer a few in Argyleshire. 13.958. Hadyou an opportunity of observing the economical condition of the people in those districts ? — The object of my visit being merely the inspection of the schools, I had scarcely any opportunity of that kind. 780 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAIOEN BEFOKE THE examinations. Edinbcro)!. M r J. Gordon. 2»M»7 1843. 31,959. Do the observations in your report apply generally or universally to the schools un- der the General Assembly's scheme?— The attendance ismore or less irregular at all the schools on the Assembly's scheme. In the extract already read, it is only the amount of irregular at- tendance at all the schools which is stated ; but a table accompanies the report, which shows the amount of irregular attendance at each school. A copy of that table can be furnished, 13,9G0. To what do you ascribe the irregularity of attendance .' — The causes are various, and some of them are noticed in the following passage of the same report : — " The causes of this neglect are everywhere much the same. Parents, in such instances, do not under- stand the full value of a school education to their children. They may forget this, or acknowledge it too faintly to give themselves any trouble to obtain it ; but in some few cases they are known to slight the education placed at their acceptance on such grounds as these, — that their children are intended for occupations to which the schools do not furnish any lessons of the least imaginable service ; and that all knowledge or ability beyond the immediate demand of such occupations is at least unneces-sary. It would appear that the opinion which regards education as of no real benefit, or at least as of no pressing necessity to the poor, after vanishing from every section of the intelligent community, finds yet a lingering retreat among some classes of the poor themselves ; happily not many. But by far the most common cause of the neglect is the necessitous circumstances of the people ; for even when alive to the advantages of the school, they detain their children from it to employ them in the little services of which children are capable at home or in the fields. This, it is obvious, is also the occasion for which it will ever be most difficult to find a remedy. It is right to add that the resort to the schools on this scheme is never hindered by inability to meec the usual charges for instruction, the teachers being enjoined to give free admission to all with whom that difficulty may be supposed to exist." 13,9G1. Has it come within your knowledge that in some cases parents have objected to educate their children, on the ground that if educated they would leave their native place, and thus not assist in maintaining their parents? — I have not heard of any such cases. 13,902. Did you answer the question whether the observation you made in regard to irregularity of attendance is general ? — It may be applied to most other country schools, as well as to those on the Assembly's scheme. 13,9()3. Have you had an opportunity of seeing whether the existence of these schools has any influence on the general habits of the population ? — The General Assembly's com- mittee has been anxious to obtain information on that point. They lately addressed to their teachers the following question, to which they have received explicit answers : — " How many of the young who had been taught at your school, have left it within the last five years to engage in employments not open to them at home, and for which they could not have been competent without the instruction they received at school?" The total num- ber returned in an.«wer to this inquiry is 715. The situations to which these more adventurous pupils have advanced, are much the same as those which young men, educated in the same degree, commonly find in other parts of the country — affording them unques- tionably opportunities of more useful service to society, and allowing scope for a fuller development of their own energies and virtues, than could have fallen to their portion without the advantage of the instruction they had received at school. In their number are found land surveyors, overseers, civil-engineers, road-contractors, ship-masters, clerks in banks, and counting-houses, and school-masters. In the class of school-masters alone, there are reckoned 180; and it will not escape- remark, how much this scheme contributes to the education of the country, by the unusual proportion of young men it prepares and sends forth to prosecute the business of teaching. ■ 13,964. Have you, orhave anyof thepersonsconnected withthe schools, had an opportunity of ascertaining whether they have had an influence in increasing comfort in respect to dwelling-houses and furniture ? — No distinct evidence has been obtained on that point, although I have not the least doubt they have had that effect in a considerable degree. 13,9()5. {Mr Twisleton.) — Can you say whether they have had any influence in checking early marriages ? — I cannot speak with certainty as to that. 13,900. Do they promote emigration ? — Our teachers have often testified that in many instances they have promoted emigration to the low country of Scotland, as well as to foreign parts. 13.967. Are you acquainted with the condition of the poor in the highlands.'' — I have had little opportunity of becoming acquainted with it. 13.968. {I)r M^Furlan.) — Have you had many applications for the establishment of Assembly's schools which you could not comply with? — Many from all parts of the highlands, and also from the lowlands, which we could not comply with, from want of funds. 13,9(ii). {Mr Twialeton.) — Are there any peculiarities in the state of the schools in diffe- rent parts of the highlands, in the Shetland Islands, and Argyleshire, for instance, that you have to notice ? — AH have pretty much the same general character, because the teachers are from much the same class of persons, and have had nearly the same advantages in respect of edu -ation ; while the schools are every where under the superintendence of the parochial clergy, the presbyteries, and the Assembly committee. Neither are the emoluments so different in amount as to create any great difference in the qualifications of the masters. 13.970. When was the system first commenced ? — In 1825. 13.971. And has been gradually increasing ? — Yes; for the first ten years the average income did not exceed 2000/. a year. It has been gradually increasing, and last year amounted to upwards of 4000/., chiefly obtained by church collections. The capital also has been gradually increasing, and now amounts to 10,000/. 13.972. Have you any suggestions respecting the poor laws, or any farther observations to make in regard to the schools ? — I am not aware that I could communicate anything farther at present that would bear much on the subject of inquiry. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 781 TABLE Showing State of Attendance at Schools, &c. Examinations, Edimbuboh, 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 GO 65 75 80 85 90 94 InscJi, . , , Crathie, . . . South KuaptUle, Itivcrary, . . Ardchattan, , Kilninver, , . Kilfinichen, Arclnanmrchan, Coll and Tyree, Campbelton, SaddellandSk Killean, . , Kilbride, Kilmorie, Kildalton, Kilchoman, Mtirtlach, Grange, . Iiiveraven, Reay, . Tlnirso, , Wick, . , Latheron, Bower, . . Diinnet, . . Watteu, . . Canisbay, . North Uist, South Uist, Harris, . . Inverness, . Dores, . . Alvie, . . Insch, . . Kihnalie, Kihnonivaig, Holeakine, . Glenelg, . , Duirnish, . Strath, . Snizort, , Braeadale, Duff us, , Kinlosa, . , Nairn, . , Stronsay, Eday. Ron say, , . Birsay, . , Bressay, Sandstyng, , Walls, . . Unst, , , , Alyth, . . Fortingall, , Tenandry, , Balquhidder, Norriston, . Loehbroom, Gairloch, , Applecross, Loclialsh, , Barvas, . . Logic Blaster, Rosskeen, . Kincardine, Knoekbain, Alness, . . Fodderty, , Creigh, . . Rogart, , Dornoch, Assynt, , Tongue, , Duirness, pness, Glenfoudland, Inverey, Tarbert, . Ormsary, . Cumlodden. Ledaig, Barcaldine, Seamadale, Torloisk, , Kinloch, . Branault, . Ariieod, Cornaig, . Saltpans, . Oatfield, . Skipnoas, . Carradale, Rounahourne, Whittingbay, Sliddory, . Benniin, Kintraw, , Lagwillan, Foreland, . Grninard, . Glenrinnes, Edingight, Gleniivat, . Melvick, , Wydale, . Thrumster, Stirkoke, . Riesgill, Berridale, , Barrack, , Ratter, . . Dun, . . Freswick, , Sollos, . . Ballishare, Balivanich, Kildonan, Tarbert, . Dochgarroch Culaird, Laganlia, . Insch, . . Corpaoh, . Bunroy, Fopt-Augustus, Amisdale, Roag, , . Flashadder, Kyleakin, . Uigg, . . ('arbost, . Brughead, Hopeman, Findhorn, Nairn, . . Sandhill, . Sourin, . . Sabiston, . Bressay, . Laxfirth, . Gruting, , Clothie, . Unst, , . Brae, , . Drumfork, Invervar, , Auldgirnaig, Lochearnhead. Thornhill, Altandow, Lead Udrigil, Torridon, . Earbusaig, Cross, . . Scotsburn, Ardross, . Donne, . . Muirtown, Achnagart, Glenglass, Maryburgh, Invcrchaaely, Whiteface, Dalnabreae, Skibo, . . Balvraid, . Lochinvar, Talniine, . Ceannubin, ts 32 184 89 108 108 78 33 10-2 7-2 !)4 106 ,<)» 74 8o 70 8-2 113 154 7-2 1,43 S7 82 83 82 81 89 103 50 92 62 179 94 77 122 81 45 76 45 100 145 51 107 222 13'! lOG 55 137 14!) 175 51 112 77 118 102 38 55 84 78 88 57 114 21 97 38 51 101 50 91 86 101 170 54 7887 i III 3 12 60 11 6 12 7 4 65 5 146 14 1 106 56 12 ' 21 .'3 25 a5 80 50 16 120 o 12 10 59 46 94 12 76 75 76 97 16 101 88 101 5 53 9 84 5 56 56 6 57 100 6 43 21 52 1732 2£ >U Si? s « E » ".eg 35 20 40 30 45 60 17 10 15 14 30 42 3 13 25 25 20 40 33 42 60 30 40 38 70 70 35 40 50 25 40 20 80 26 20 20 40 30 40 30 29 26 13 40 SO 26 30 49 15 20 100 e 100 54 14 18 30 25 5 22 39 24 36 17 33 60 5 18 •36 27 30 25 26 13 30 20 7 8 28 3 20 20 17 30 50 47 34 100 70 3 2975 *ES IP III 23 35 6 11 10 25 17 3 20 4 12 12 15 20 16 20 24 IS 40 26 10 20 30 24 45 9 65 34 10 11 20 30 3 15 H 52 25 30 IS 5 40 28 3 44 69 5 60 12 11 12 12 12 20 13 16 15 23 4 36 29 34 3 17 15 10 14 4 18 10 1 8 26 6 12 14 4 20 29 25 66 35 3 1653 Chief occupations of the people. Farmers, Quarriers, . . Agriculture, Fishermen, Labovirers, &c. Fishermen and Labourers, Do. Do. Crofters, Do Do Do Do Farming and Fishing, Agriculture, Agriculture and Fisliing, Do. Do. Agriculture, Fishing and Agriculture, Labourers and Farmers, Agriculture, Agriculture and Fishing, Agriculture, Do Do Agricultural Labourers, Agriculture, Do Agriculture, Do Do Crofters and Fishing, Agriculture, Fishing, Agriculture, Fishing, .,,.,. l''ishing and Agriculture, Agriculture and Fishing, Do. Do. Agriculture, Agriculture and Fishing, Kelp Manufacture, . . Do. Crofters, .... Agriculture, Do Fishing and Agriculture, Crofters and Labourers, Agriculture, Cottars and Day-labourers, Agriculture, Crofters and Day-labourers, Crofters, Agriculture, Fishing, Do Fishing and Crofters, Crofters, Fishing and Agriculture, Cottars and Shepherds, Fishing, Do Fishing, Fishing and Handicraft, Fishing and Farming, . Fishing and Crofters, Farming, Fishing, Fishing, Fishing, Fishing and Crofters, Fishing, Agriculture, Cottars, ,.,,,, Labourers and Crofters, Crofters, Agriculture, Fishing and Crofters, Fishing and Farming, Fishing, Fishing, Fishing and Crofters, Crofters, Do Do Do Do Do Field Labour, .... Agricultural Labour, . . Agriculture, Do Agriculture and Handicraft. Agriculture, Fishing, Crofters, Fishing, ...... hip 25 5 2 2 3 6 5 6 3 30 1 10 10 14 9 25 13 2 3 11 2 2 7 30 12 7 3 10 10 22 54 4 3 2 16 3 6 4 8 30 4 10 8 12 12 1 6 18 13 22 10 7 7 4 1 2 3 1 27 8 4 7 10 9 4 6 10 3 30 6 12 10 4 715 i1 £1 Mr J. Gordon. 2U May 1843. 4 2 2 3 2 4 15 1 1 2 5 3 2 2 7 8 2 180 Kur.miiintions. KllIHBrH(iU. :i« H»j I84S. 782 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE Monday, 30resent and in former times, or from the description, to which you allude i* — I do not derive it from the difference in the allowance ; nor do I tiiink there has been such a difference in the allowance as woidd materially affect the character of the popu- lation in the country. The general objection I have is, that the system haa not been capable of grappling with the large towns which have grown up of late years. POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 793 14.177. Is it from the description ? — Yes, from the description which I derive from Examiniitiom. books, and other sources detailing the state of society. I do not know that I can point out Edinburoh. any specific source ; but a person who has been reading on this subject, has a number of petty ^ , „ g .. sources of information from which he may be able to form an opinion of the state of the 30 May 184*. country at that time ; and he may compare it with what he either hears or sees of the condition of the people at present. 14.178. In what does the deterioration consist? — In their being a larger proportion of the population who have not the same desire of maintaining that respectability that they used to have forty years ago. 14.179. Do you apply your observations to the poor on the parish roll ? — I could not speak specifically to the poor on the parish roll ; but to the general state of society. 14.180. Were the protected beggars to whom you alluded respectable ?— Yes ; if they still exist, they will probably have lost the patrons that they used to have in the country. 14.181. There were beggars in the country ? — Yes. 14.182. Are you acquainted with the present race of beggars in the country? — I argue from inference, and from what I see in the newspapers, that in the north, where that class frequented within my own recollection, viz. from ten to twenty years ago, the country is now very much infested by mendicants crossing from one part of the country to another, 14.183. Have you had no personal opportunity of comparing the state of the present condition of the beggars with those whom you remarked previously ? — No. As an illustra- tion of the previous position of mendicants in Aberdeenshire, one man told me that he recollected a beggar who kept a horse. 14.184. You have stated that in your opinion destitution is extremely prejudicial to the health of many persons exposed to it, although it may not lead to immediate death ; and that when they come to ask for relief they arc broken hearted, — do you make that statement from observation, or on the authority of others, from whom you may have heard it ? — I have had a good deal of information in regard to this. I made it a practice to speak to those who came to my own door ; I made it a practice to give them food, but not money. 14,18.5. Did you ascertain whether the account they gave of themselves was correct or not ? — That would be a labour in which a person would be defeated, — -a vain labour. I never attempted it. When I first came to Edinburgh, twelve years ago, from the north, where my mother was in the habit of relieving the classes of beggars there, she endeavoured to find here such objects of charity as she found in the north ; and she found she was frequently entirely imposed upon. She, therefore, made up her mind never to give money except to the house of refuge, and other charitable institutions of the city. 14.186. You think that the kirk-session is not a proper body for managing the aifairs of tlie poor ; does that opinion apply to country as well as to town parishes ? — If it were made a more complex system than merely inquiring into the character and wants of persons, and handing them over a little money, I should think bodies might be found more capable of skilfully applying that complex system than kirk-sessions. 14.187. Why a complex system? — I mean that it is a system the operation of which must be complex from its requiring great skill. I should say that it is scarcely necessary. In condemning the system, to refer to individuals, and say that this or that kirk-session has mismanaged ; for the defect of the system is that they cannot manage well. Whenever an allowance is increased in a parish, that parish is flocked to from other parishes. 14.188. Do you know instances of a country parish being inundated by people coming to it in that way ? — -I have no personal knowledge. 14.189. You mentioned that you had seen persons in the house of refuge who had been a short time in Edinburgh, did they obtain relief there ? — I do not i-ecoUect. There were instances where parties had obtained a settlement. It was often explained to me that either the parish they were in in Edinburgh, or some neighbouring parish, was responsible for their maintenance ; but when the parish disputed their claim, assistance was given to the indivi- duals in preference to making any effort to get the parish to undergo its legal liability. 14.190. How do you infer from that that persons come to Edinburgh for the purpose of obtaining a settlement ? — I do not infer it from that alone, but from what the books of the parish show, viz. that the applicants are not aU individuals of the place. I cannot conceive that such a number of persons not belonging to the parish should be on the poor's roU, unless from the circumstance of their coming to get aid and obtain a settlement. 14.191. {Mr Twisleton.) — Supposing it were shown that a great majority of such persons on the poor's roll had lived the greater part of their life in Edinburgh, would that shake your confidence in the inference you deduce from the fact of so many being born not in Edinburgh ? — If individual cases were inquired into, and if it were shown that a small proportion of them came to Edinburgh after they were adults, I certainly think that that would materially weaken the conclusion. Sometime ago I made out a table for the purpose of satisfying myself as to the relative proportions of natives and strangers on some poor's rolls. Not having the means of collecting the information for any specific year, I was obliged to let it run miscellaneously over a course of years. If you think it worth while taking tliis table that I made out, I am ready to say that I believe its accuracy. TABLE. 704 Examinations, EniNBCRQH. Mr . I. H. Burton, 30 May 1843. JIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAia:N BEFOEE TJtR TABLE. Inmates of the Edinburgh Charity Workhouse (parish), Out-pensioners of ditto, ... Inmates of St Cuthbert's (parish) Workhouse, Edinburgh, 1st July 1840, _ ... (iV, B. — All the children are counted among the natives. Among the 461 inmates there are only 88 adult natives.) Out-pensioners of ditto, 1st July 1840, Dundee Poor's roU, .,, ,.. Inverness ditto, ... ... .., Dumfries ditto, ... ... ... ... Aberdeen ditto, 9th May 1840, Inmates of Edinburgh House of Kefuge, from 1st October 1839 to 1st September 1840, (Edinburgh and Leith,) Persons sheltered In Night Refuge of ditto, from 10th Jidy to 30th September 1840, Persons sheltered in Glasgow Night Asylum, .., ... Inmates of Edinburgh Infinnary, April 1840, ... .,, Inmates of Glasgow Infli-mary, April 1840, l-'rom the Locality. 143 259 246 223 344 148 108 420 607 1832 2446 91 38 From other Places. 289 612 215 815 655 323 164 1097 966 2502 6752 191 140 Total. 432 871 461 1038 999 471 272 1517 1573 4334 9198 282 178 14.192. (Mr CampheU.) — Did you ever inquire how many years any of the persons on that list had been living by their industry in Edinburgh ? — No ; I must make allowance for the number who may have done so. I merely say that the large number of jiersons not born in the locality brings to my mind the conclusion that they must have come for the advan- tages which the eleemosynary institutions in Edinburgh afford them. 14.193. Have you not ascertained the fact in reference to one single individual gaining an industrial residence before he claimed parish relief? — I cannot say I examined any indivi- dual from M'hom I had such iniormation. The only information on that point I ever have received has been from official persons connected with the house of refuge. 14.194. You did not ask those persons in the house of refuge why they had come to Edinburgh ? — No ; I admit that some might have been there who might not have come there for that purpose. 14.195. From what fact do you draw yoiu* conclusion? — From the fact of the large pro^ portion of strangers appearing on the parish rolls. 14.196. But in regard to the house of reftige? — From the circumstance that there were persons who were destitute, and v.ho had come fi'om other parts of the country, and who went immediately there and applied for assistance. 14.197. Did you not inquire Avhether they were not passing through the city and asked for relief to help them on ? — In many cases they might be passing through the city, — I did not ask the question. 14.198. You said you thought that very few would come to Edinburgh for work, — why do you fonn that opinion ? — ^Because Edinburgh is not a manufacturing town. 14.199. Is it consistent with your knowledge whether or not there was within these few years a great demand for labourers in Edinburgh, and for masons and carpenters ? — I could not say as to masons and carpenters particularly, — I do not know. 14.200. Does not a town such as Edinburgh require laboiu-ers and workmen of various kinds ? — The character of Edinburgh is, that it has a larger idle popiUation living on chance than any other town in Scotland ; and, on that account, individuals are not, I think, likely to immigrate to Edinburgh for work. 14.201. Do you think that persons who come here are aware of the existence of cliaritiea before they come ? — I should think they are likely to know their existence. 14.202. Had you means of approxunating to the fact, or do you speak merely on supposi- tion ? — Supposition entirely. 14.203. Is the allowance given here larger than what is given in highland parishes ? — Yes. 14.204. Do you know how the allowance in highland parishes is eked out, — are you aware how the poor live : what addition do they get from private charity or otherwise ? — I can only speak to the general character of the population as I have seen it. I have not been in l^oss-shire, but I have been in Aberdeenshire, Inverness-shire, Perthshire, and Argyle- shire, and have seen the population. 14.205. I am not speaking of the general population, but of the poor on the poor's roll ? — I cannot speak to that. 14.206. You do not know whether a man on the poor's roll in the highlands is in a better condition than one on the poor's roll in Edinburgh ? — No ; I can speak merely to the genei-al appearance of the population. There is such a state of poverty and depression in the High- lands that one can easily conceive that the people have inducements to go to large towns, such as Edinburgh, where they are surrounded by numbers of humane beings who wiU not, allow them to starve, POOR LAW INQUIRY COMMISSION FOR SCOTLAND. 795 14.207. Do you think that in highland parishes there are not a number of humane beings Eiaminations. who will not allow them to starve ? — I should think that in many parishes they are all poor Edinburgh. together. . ..„ , Mr J. ITi^rton. 14.208. You stated that the population which goes to other large towns is dinerent from 30 May 1843. that which comes to Edinburgh, — ^in what does the difference consist ? — The people who go to Glasgow, Paisley, and Dundee, whatever they may come to afterwards, go there to get work. 14.209. You do not think that any of them go to those places for the purpose of being put on the poor's roll ? — There may be some. Formerly, eight or ten years ago, I have seen the whole population of Dundee having an air of comfort ; there is a great change in the aspect of the people since that time. In 1838, a stagnation in trade occurred there. Many who had gone there, and had the prospect of respectability before them, were reduced to indigence in consequence. 14.210. Were there many Irish among them .' — I cannot say. I recollect of it being remarked that they had not been formerly subject to the inroads of the Irish, but that they were now beginning to feel that they were getting more Irish among them. I never met an Irishman there. 14.211. You said some provision should be made for abandoned children, — do you mean children given to evil courses, or deserted children ? — I mean both classes — those who have not parents or relations, and those who are given to evil courses. They should be taken up, trained, and educated, so that they might turn out useful members of society. 14.212. You say the handloom weavers have suffered from not having sufficient know- ledge of political economy to show them the expediency of changing their occupation, — have you had any conversations with them ? — Not in the west. Many years ago I have seen them in country districts. My knowledge of them is derived entirely from the report of the Commissioners. 14.213. You have not heard from themselves that difficulties stood in the way of their changing their occupation ? — No. I may have gone more on generals than I should have done. 1 can only say it is my belief that a different sort of instruction would have enabled them to gain a livelihood in another way. 14.214. {Mr Twisleton.) — Are not these difficulties you mention stated in the report of the Commissioners, and is it not the advice of the Commissioners that pains should be taken to instruct them ? — I believe it is. 14.215. {Mr Campbell?) — Are you acquainted with the operation of the English poor law ? — No. I take my information from the reports — that of the commission of inquiry for the old system, and the annual reports since the commencement of the present system. END OF PART 1. 31 EDIKBURGH : FEINTED BY MURR.'VY AND GIBB, FOR HER majesty's STATIONERT OPFICE. m. 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