HV [8931 C17A5 11866a CAPE OF GOOD HOPE PARLIAMENT HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE EMPLOYMENT OF CONVICTS Si FIRST REPORT THE LIBRARY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LOS ANGELES CAPE OF GOOD HOPE, FIRST REPORT SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO COKSIDER AND REPORT OW THB EMPLOYMENT OF CONVICTS. Ordered by the House of Assembly to be printed, 3rd OCTOBER, 1866. CAPE TOWN : SAUL SOLOMON & CO., STEAM PKINTING OFFICE. 1866. A. 2-'66. CONVICTS. ; ^ CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. FIRST REPORT SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO CONSIDER AND REPORT ON THE EMPLOYMENT OF CONYICTS. Ordered hy the House of Assembly to be printed. 3rd OCTOBER, 1866. CAPE TOWN : SAUL SOLOMON & CO., STEAM PRINTING OFFICE. 1866. A. 2-.'66. CONVICTS. Ill FIKST REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed by the HONOUR ABLE the HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY on the 17th September, 1866, to consider and report, first, upon the arrangements proposed in the MESSAGE of the GOVERNOR respecting the EMPLOYMENT of CONVICTS, and, secondly, to inquire into and report upon the whole CONVICT SYSTEM ; and that it be an instruction to the Committee first to consider and report upon the former branch of the subject. MEMBERS : The Treasurer-General, Mr. Molteno, „ G. Wood, „ Darnell, Mr. Rutherfoord, „ Munnik, „ White. Your Committee having considered the subject referred to it, and taken evidence thereon, have agreed to the follow- ing resolutions, which, together with the evidence as yet taken, it begs to bring up as a first report, and in special reference to the message of His Excellency the Governor, No. o, of 10th September. The Committee is indisposed to recommend the establish- ment of any new convict establishments on the present costly footing, being of opinion that by maintaining four principal stations, and adopting other arrangements, — some of a temporary character, — the present pressure will be met until such time as the effects of fresh criminal legislation may, it is reasonable to suppose, cause a diminution in the number of convicts. The arrangements proposed are as follows, viz. : 1. The Cape Copper Mining Company having agreed to provide the transport and accommodation, and to 1367235 IV REPORT OF COMMITTEE. contribute further towards the superintendence required, the Namaqualcind road might be commenced by forming a convict station, on a new principle, as an out-station of the Breakwater, by sending a number of selected convicts from that station, to be worked under a less expensive system than the present, and subject to such new regulations as may be recommended by the Committee, or finally resolved upon. 2. That as the Knysna road to the Langekloof will be completed within a few months, the convict station at the Vlugt should, immediately upon the completion of that work, be broken up, and the convicts there be divided between the Ruyterbosch Pass and the road from George towards Knysna, under the supervision of the present staff of officers at the Vlugt, subject to such new general regulations as may be recommended by the Committee or adopted by the House; and subject, also, to the arrangements which have been entered into between the Government and the respective divisional councils of Mossel Bay and George. But the Committee considers that a number of convicts might be at once drafted from the ^ lugt station and placed under the supervision of the divisional council of Mossel Bay, for the purpose of erection of barracks and prehmi- nary work. 3. That the information at present before the Committee is insufficient to enable it to offer an opinion as to the best arrangement to be made when tlie time arrives for removing the convict station at the Katberg. The road from Graliam's Town to Kino; W illiam's Town and the road between Cookhuis Bridge and Daggaboer's Nek are no doubt important and necessary works, and the Committee thinks that some such arrangement as is proposed in regard to the Namaqualand road might with advantage be adopted with regard to them. 4. The Committee is of opinion that Act No, IG, 1864, should be amended in so far as to remove the restric- tion placed upon the judges by Clause I, imposing a minimum punishment, with hard labour, in case of sheep and cattle-stealing. The Committee also recommends to increase the jurisdiction of the resident magistrates REPORT OF COMMITTEE. to such an extent as will enable them to try ordinary cases of sheep and cattle-stealing, and to award punish- ment, not only by imprisonment, hard labour, or solitary confinement, and spare diet, but likewise to inflict corporal punishment, as well in cases of first as of second conviction. 5. All prisoners convicted during the present circuit, or now in the country gaols awaiting removal to convict stations, may, the Committee considers, be retained in the gaols, or, failing sufficient accommodation, the resident magistrate may be authorized to obtain the same outside the gaols, and their labour placed at the disposal of the local or neighbouring divisional councils or municipalities, or both, as the case may be, under the control of the resident magistrates, until such time as further arrangements can be carried out ; and the Committee recommends that the Government should at once address the various divisional councils and municipalities in accordance with this resolution. R. RUTHERFOORD, Chairman. [ vii] PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. Wednesday, \^th September , 1866. PRESENT : Mr. Rutherfoord, Treasurer-General, Mr. Molteno, Mr. Darnell, ,, Munnik. Proposed by the Treasurer-General, and seconded by Mr. Molteno : That Mr. Rutherfoord be the Chairman of this Com- mittee. Proposed by Mr. Molteno, and resolved : That the following papers be called for and submitted to the Committee at its next meeting, viz. : The reports of the several Commissions on the convict question of last year. The last report of the Superintendent-General of Convicts. The present Convict Regulations, as well as those that were in force previous to 1854. Report of the Chief Inspector of Roads. All reports, estimates, and plans of or connected with the works proposed by the Governor's message. No. 5 of 1866. A general map of the Colony, with the roads marked upon the same. Committee adjourned until to-morrow, the 20th instant, at 10-30 a.m. Thursday, 20tk September, 1866. PRESENT : Mr. Rutherfoord (Chairman), Mr. Molteno, Mr. Darnell, „ White, „ G. Wood. „ Munnik, The papers, documents, and map called for at the last meeting handed in by the clerk of the committee, with the exception of viii PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. the reports, estimates, and plans of or connected with the works proposed by the Governor's message. No. 5 of 1866. Proposed by Mr. G. Wood, seconded by Mr. Molteno, and resolved: That the Chairman ask the House, at its sitting to-morrow, for power for the Committee to call for papers and take evidence. Proposed by Mr. Molteno, and resolved: That the Colonial Secretary be requested to attend the next meeting of the Com- mittee for the purpose of giving evidence. Committee adjourned until to-morrow, the 21st instant, at 10-30 a.m. ' Friday^ 2\st September, 1866. PRESENT : Mr. Rutherfoord (Chairman), Treasurer-General, Mr. Molteno, Dr. White, Mr. Darnell, „ G. Wood, ,, Munnik. Colonial Secretary examined. Resolved, to call for the evidence of Mr. C. Piers. Committee adjourned until Monday, at half-past 10 o'clock. Monday, 24:th September, 1866. PRESENT : Mr. RuTHERFOORD (Chairman), Mr. Darnell, „ Munnik, „ G. AVood, Dr. White, Mr. Molteno, Treasurer-General. Mr. C. Piers, Superintendent-General of Convicts, examined. Resolved, to call for the evidence of Mr. Robinson, at 10-30 a.m. ; Rev. Fisk, at 11 o'clock; Mr. J. Shorty at 11 '30 a.m., to-morrow. PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. IX Tuesday, 25th September, 1866. PRESENT : Treasurer-General (Acting Chairman), Mr. Darnell, I Mr. Molteno. Dr. White, | „ Munnik. Mr. M. R. Robinson, Chief Inspector of Roads, examined., Rev. G. H. R. Fisk examined. Mr. J. Short, Superintendent of the Breakwater Convict Station, examined. Certain papers were handed in by the Colonial Secretary. Certain papers were handed in by Mr. C. Piers. Committee in deliberation. Committee adjourned until Thursday next, at 10*30 a.m. Friday, 28tk September, 1866. present : Mr. Rutherpoord (Chairman), Mr. G. Wood, Molteno, Darnell, Treasurer-General. Mr. Munnik, Dr. White. Committee in deliberation. The Chairman read a letter from the Rev. G. H R. Fisk, dated September 26, 1866. Also, a return furnished by the Superintendent-General of Convicts, showing the desertions from the convict stations during the last five years and part of the current year. A return of the number of prisoners in the different gaols in the Western Province at the close of the month of August, 1866. And a memorandum showing the cost of rations furnished to the convicts at the station at East London. Mr. Molteno moves the following resolutions : The Committee is indisposed to recommend the establishment of any new convict establishments on the present costly footing, being of opinion that by maintaining four principal stations, and adopting other arrangements, — some of a temporary character, — the present pressure will be met until such time as the effect of A. 2— '06. CONVICTS. -^ PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. fresh criminal leirislation may, it i3 reasonable to suppose, cause a diminution in the number ol convicts. The arrangements proposed are as follows, viz. : 1. All the prisoners convicted durins: the present circuit, or now in the country gaols awaiting removal to the convict stations, may be retained in the gaols ; or, failing sufficient accommodation, the resident magistrates to be authorized to obtain the same outside the gaols, and their labour placed at the disposal of the local or neighbouring divisional councils or municipalities, or both, as the case may be, under the control of the resident magistrates, imtil such time as further arrangements can be carried out. 2. That it be intimated without delay to all divisional coun- cils and municipalities that, if suitable arrangements can be entered into, the labour of certain classes of i)risoners convicted at the respective circuit courts will be placed at their disposal ; accommodation and su])ervision, to the satisfaction of the Govern- ment, to be provided, over and above such as may be, without in- convenience, available at the gaols, which can be ascertained upon consultation with the resident magistrates. 3. The Cnpc Copper Company having agreed to provide the transport and accommodation, the Namae Copper Company having agreed to provide the transport and accommodation, and to contribute further towards the superintendence, Sec, rcfjuircd, tlic Namaqualand road might be connncnced by forming a convict station on a new principle as an out-station of the Breakwater, by sending a number of selected convicts from that station, to be worked under a less expensive system than the present, and subject to such new regu- lations as may be recommended by the Committee, or finally resolved upon. 2. That as the Knysna road to the Langekloof will be com- pleted within a few months, the convict station at the Vlugt should, immediately upon the completion of that work, be broken up, and the convicts there be divided between the Ruyterbosch PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. XV Pass and the road from George towards Knysna, under the super- vision of the present staff of officers at the Ylugt, subject to such new general regulations as may be recommended by the Com- mittee or adopted by the House; and subject, also, to the arrange- ments which have been entered into between the Government and the respective divisional councils of Mossel Bay and George. But the Committee considers that a number of convicts might be drafted from the Vlugt station, and placed under the supervision of the divisional council of Mossel Bay, for the purposes of erec- tion of barracks and preliminary work. 3. That the information at present before the Committee is insufficient to enable it to offer an opinion as to the best arrano-e- meut to be made when the time arrives for removing the convict station at the Katberg. The road from Graham's Town to King William's Town, and the road between Cookhuis Bridge and Daggabocr's Nek are no doubt important and necessary works, and the Committee thinks that some such arrangement as is pro- posed in regard to the Namaqualand road might with advantage be adopted with regard to them. 4. The Committee is of opinion that Act No. 16, 1864, should be amended in so far as to remove the restriction placed upon the judges by clause 1, imposing a minimum punishment, with hard labour, in cases of sheep and cattle-stealing. The Committee also re- commends to increase the jurisdiction of resident magistrates to such an extent as will enable them to try ordinary cases of sheep and cattle-stealing, and to award punishment, not only by imprison- ment, hard labour, or solitary confinement and spare diet, but likewise to inflict corporal punishment, as well in cases of first as of second conviction. 5. All prisoners convicted during the present circuit, or now in the country gaols awaiting removal to convict stations, may, the Committee considers, be retained in the gaols, or, failing suffi- cient accommodation, the resident magistrates may be authorized to obtain the same outside the gaols, and their labour placed at the disposal of the local or neighbouring divisional councils or muni- cipalities, or both, as the case may be, under the control of the resident magistrates, until such time as further arrangements can be carried out ; and the Committee recommends that the Govern- ment should at once address the various divisional councils and municipalities in accordance with this resolution. Agreed to. Kesolved : That the Chairman be instructed to report these resolutions, and the evidence taken, to the House as a first report. Committee adjourned until further notice by the Chairman. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. Friday, September 21, 1866. PRESENT : Mr. RuTHERFooRD (Chairman), Treasurer-General, Dr. White, Mr. George Wood, Mr. Molteno, „ Darnell, ,, Munnik. The Colonial Secretary examined. 1. Chairman.'] You are aware of the object of this com- ai. Secretary. mittee?— Yes. _ Sept"liri866. 2. And that it is called upon first to consider and report upon the Governor's message with reference to the employ- ment of convicts ? — Yes. 3. The Government proposes to execute certain public works in different parts of the Colony, such as roads ? — Yes. 4. Have any of tiiese works already received Parlia- mentary sanction ? — The road in Namaqualand, from Honde- klip Bay in the direction of Springbok, received Parliamen- tary sanction to a certain extent last session, and there was a select committee appointed to inquire into, and report upon, petitions in favour of the road being constructed. The com- mittee brought up their report, and it was, I think, approved by the House of Assembly, the report being in favour of the construction of a road, taking up some point where the tramway was to terminate from Hondeklip Bay in the direc- tion of Springbok, and then go from the terminus of the tramway in the direction of Springbok, through a moun- tainous part of the country. The estimated expense of that road was, I think, £20,000. The only difference being that it is now contemplated to make the road by means of con- vict labour instead of by free labour, which was the intention last session. A. 2-'e6. COJNVICTS. 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Col. Secret ary. g Jg jj ppopoSPfl tO m^Ve. all thoSG WOrks witll CODVlct Sept. 21, 186C. labour entirely ? — Yes, lliat road entirely, 6. And the other roads?— Yes, all the works alluded to iq the Governor's message. 7. Mr. Molteno.'] Was not that road being undertaken dependent to a great extent upon the tramway being con- structed by the Copper Company? — That was the original intention. The company was to construct the tramway, and a Bill was passed for that purpose last session. They have since been in correspondence with the Government upon the subject, and we find that they are not now intending to con- struct that tramway. 8. Then the Parliamentary sanction you allude to was dependent entirely upon the construction of the tramway by the company ? — I do not know that it was entirely depen- dent upon that, but the construction of the tramway was certainly a contemplated arraii^ement. 1 tliink it was held that the road through the mountainous part of the country was very desirable, not only for the convenience of the Copper Company, but to open up tht; country, for there is a large extent of Government hind in the district of >»amaqua- land which would become valuable if there was a good road to the port. 9. Still, the tramway would Lave completed the road to the port ? — Yes ; but since that time it seems to be considered that the tramway is not so necessary as it was at that time considered to be. 10. I\lr. G. Wood.^ So that if the convicts do the work, they will have a much more extensive lino to make? — Not necessarily. 11. What was the distance tlu; tramway was to belaid down ? — It was to be laid down over a sandy part of the country, said to be very heavy for wagons ; it is a level country, but sandy. 12. Chairman.] Then the present direct road is not the same as that considered last year ? — It is the same road, except the tramway. 13. The distance of the tramway would then be included in the proposed road ? — No, it is not considered necessary to make a road where the tramway was to be. 14. Treasurer- G€ncral.\ In fact, the tramway was intended to be constructed only over a part of the country where there SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 3 was nothing but sand ? — Yes, it was merely intended to avoid ^"^J^arif. a heavy, sandy part of tlie country. Sept. 21, ises. 15. Mr. G. Wood.] Is not that the principal difficulty of that road ? — I fancy not. 16. Chairman.] I understand you to say that this road has been entirely estimated for convict labour? — Yes. 17. Have any estimates been framed of the number of convicts which it is proposed to employ upon the whole of this road ? — The Chief Inspector of Roads estimates that, if the whole line be made from Springbok to Hondeklip Bay, including a hard road, to be made over the sandy part, that 300 convicts would be required for about three years ; but the Government does not contemplate making a hard road over the sand. 18. But that estimate includes a hard road over the sand ? —Yes; Mr. Kobinson states the distance from Hondeklip Bay to be sixty miles, and that it will take from 300 to 350 convicts for three years if the road is to be made throunrhout. ID. Is there any estimate of the probable expense on that road? — The Chief Inspector's estimate is about £1,000 to £1,200 a year for plant, engineering, superintendence, &c. 20. Would that £1,000 or £1,200 a year include all ex- penses ? — That is the e^timate. 21. That does not include transport? — No; the Mining Company have undertaken to transport th-j convicts to the site, to construct the necessary barracks, and to contribute £800 a year to the expense, subject to the endeavour to induce the Parliament to relieve them from that expense; but they undertake to do all this, and to take their ch;mce of the Parliament relieving them. This £800 the company under- take to pay is for the supervision of the convicts. 22. Is that the same as the amount you estimate for, the £1,000 or £1,200?— No, that is the estimate for the Road department ; that amount will be required for tradesmen and plant, and belongs to the road expenditure, not to the Convict department. 23. Dr. White.] If I understand you rightly, the £800 will be the extra expense required for the convicts ? — Not the extra expense, but the expense. 24. Chairman.^ Can you give us any information with reference to the Ruiterbosch Pass and the number of 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Col. Secret ary, conricts to be employed there, the probable expense, and Sept. 21, 1866. the tinne they will be occupied upon it? — In regard to the Ruiterbosch road, the estimate of the Chief Inspector of Roads is, that the distance still to be completed upon which convicts can be employed, is about twelve miles, and will require 200 convicts for about two years. On this road, also, the divisional council of Mossel Bay undertook to provide the transport of the convicts, from w^herever they may come, to the site of the road to be made, and to construct the neces- sary barracks and pay the-extra charge for superintendence and discipline. 25. Mr. Darnell.] There has been a grant already made for this work ? — Yes, two or three times. 26. So that it is an authorized work to some extent?— Yes. 27. But it has been thrown up for want of the means of going on ?— Yes. 28. Mr. G. Wood.] What proportion of the expense do the Mossel Bay divisional council offer ? Would they offer as much as they have in the case of Namaqualand ? — There is no certain fixed sum; it will depend entirely upon the expense to be incurred. 29. Chairman.] Do they undertake the whole expense ? — No, whatever the extra charge may be. 30. Mr. Molteno.] Then this work is entirely a work which has been managed by the divisional council ? — Yes, up to the present time; all the Government has done hitherto has been to contribute an equal sum with the divisional council of the estimated cost, which has been found insurfi- cient. I am not prepared to say whether or not tiie officer of the Road department who was sent there to survey the line received his salary from the Government while he was there, but the divisional council paid his travellinjj; expenses. 31. The Government had no control of the work? — No, none at all. 32. Chairman.] What is the estimate with regard to the Knysna road, the probable expense, and the time the con- victs will be required ? — The estimate I have here is for the construction of the road for the whole distance from George to Knysna by means of convicts; but, as at present advised, the Government think it would not be necessary to employ the convicts on the whole length of the line. The part of the line upon which convicts may be profitably employed is SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 5 considered to be that from George Town to the top of the Ooi. ^Secretary. hill on the Knysna side, at what is called " Trek aan de Sept. 21, I866. Touw." From that place to Knysna, the road is sufficiently available without convict labour, so that the estimate is con- siderably over what the expense will be. The estimate of Mr. Bain, the inspector of the road between Knysna and Longkloof, who has made a survey of it, is that it will require 250 convicts for two years on a part of the line between George and a place called Karatera, a distance of twenty-six miles, and from Karatera to the pon- toon (twelve miles) will require 115 convicts for one year. The whole distance is about thirty-eight miles ; and Mr. Robinson says that the number of convicts required will be 200 convicts for two years and a half, and the cost of superintendence and plant will be £),000 a year, something at the same rate as the Namaqualand road. This contemplates the construction of a road for the whole distance from George to the Knysna, which the Government think not necessary. With regard to tliis road, I may say that the divisional council of George undertook to put up barracks, and also to contribute some- thing towards the expenditure, but what that something is I am not in a position to say ; they cannot contribute much; about £100 a year, 1 think. The Government contemplates employing the convicts now on the Langekloof and Knysna road upon this work, but do not intend to commence the work until the Langekloof road is finished, which, the In- spector of Roads says, will be early next year, — in March, I think. So this will not be a new convict gang and staff. We propose to detach a small party to assist in putting up barracks, for which the divisional council will find the materials ; but this work cannot be undertaken until next March, when the whole gang and staff can be moved. 33. Then you propose transferring that convict station to this road ? — Yes. 34. Mr. Molteno.] Then, in fact, you will be transporting the existing convict establishment to a new work ? — Yes. 35. Mr. G. Wood.] Then it is not a question of any delay at all ? — It is only a question whether the Parliament consider that this road should be constructed. If they say that this road should be constructed, then the Govern- ment will at once take the necessary measures to bring the 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Col, secret ury. (jonvicts there by building the barracks. You cannot Sept. 21, 1666. movc the whole gangj until the barracks have been built. 36. Mr. Molteno.] Do you know where it is contem- plated to erect the convict barracks? — Very near George Town. 37. Chairman.] Can you give us information as to the road between Graham's Town and Kinc^ William's Town ? — There is no estimate at present of the cost or the time it will take to make ; a survey of it has been ordered with a view to obtain that information. 38. Mr. G. Wood] Do you know the distance ? — -About eighty miles. 39. About whatdistance do you propose to make this road ? — From the neighbourhood of Breakfast Vlei almost to King William's Town ; the heavy work will be the two banks of the Keiskamma, about twenty miles. There would also be a bridge ; but that would not be a work for the con- victs. It is a very important work, for it is not only used as a communication between Graham's Town and Kincr Wil- liam's Town, but also used, in some seasons at any rate, as the main road from Port Elizabeth to the interior ; and the Free State wajzons come down that way ; so that it is one of the main arteries of that part of the Colony, 40. But is it not in very bad order? — I fancy it is, for the military authorities report it to be in a very bad state indeed ; and a survey is being made to ascertain whether the existing line is tbe best line, with reference to the road itself and the proper site for a bridi;e. 41. Chairman.] Will the result of the survey be soon ascertained? — 1 have no doubt before the session is over, but the Governor is desirous of ascertaining, by his message, whether that is one of the works the Parliament wishes should be undertaken when it can be done. 42. And the road at Daggerboer's Nek ? — The road between Daggerboer's Nek and Kookhuis Drift is about thirteen miles in extent, and is estimated to require from 150 to 180 convicts for a period of sixteen months. This is a road which 1 think the Government is bound to con- struct in some way or other, either by convict labour or free labour. It is a portion of the main road from Port Elizabeth to the interior by Zuurberg, and Cradock to Colesberg and the Free State. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 7 43. It is a new road ? — It is a new piece of road, and con- cof. Secret ary. nectiiig the road near Daggaboer's Nek with the road near Sept. 21, I866. Kookhuis Drift, the line to Port Elizabeth, via Zuurberg. I think the divisional council of Cradock is about the only- divisional council which has refused to take over the main- tenance of its roads under the provisions of the Act of 1864, because the Government had not, as they hold, constructed these lines of road. 44. Mr. G. Wood.] How far is this line of road from the nearest seat of magistracy ? — About twenty miles from Bed- ford, and twenty miles from Somerset. The line is thirteen miles in length, which will carry it much further from these places. 45. Chairman.'] You speak of it as going towards Dagga- boer's Nek ? — Yes, towards Daggaboer's Nek. 46. Mr. G. Wood.] As regards the road, there is no pro- position on the part of the divisional council to meet the Government with part of the expense ? — It is the main road from Port Elizabeth to the interior, which the Government ought to construct. According to the reports of the Road department, and from wliat I know myself, if we had not so many convicts on hand that we scarcely know what to do with them, 1 do not think it a road on which they ought to be employed, because they will have to be divided into two parties, and it may be even more economically done by free labour ; but as we have so large a number of convicts, whom we do not know where to take to, we might employ them there. 47. There is still some portion of the main road from Port Ehzubeth to Graham's Town incomplete ? — Yes. 48. It is, in fact, almost the worst part of the road? — Yes ; it is of a heavy nature. 49. Mr. Darnell.] When will the Vlugt and Knysna roads be completed ? — Not later than next March. 50. Mr. Molteno.] Could you give us any information with regard to the Katberg ? — It is reported that it will be completed early next year. 51. Mr. G. Wood.] Is it not intended to widen this road? —No. 52. Mr. Molteno.] Have the Government any'idea when the Kowie works will be completed ? — I suppose that will depend whether the Kowie will have funds to carry on with. 8 MFNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Col. Secret ary, s^^ \^.^yQ asked tliG Kowie HarbouF Board when they think Sept. 21, 1866, they will no longer require the convicts, and they told us not for two years longer. I suppose that will depend upon whe- ther they will get more money or not. 53. Mr. Darnell.] Will the Katberg be completed as far as originally contemplated in the time ? — In so far as convict labour can be made available for that. 54. Is there nothinix required either on the north side of the real Katberg or the South of it, that it would not be advantageous and cheaper to move the convicts, in the first instance, before taking the convicts from that work? — We have moved them twenty miles in the direction of Fort Beaufort. This is the only remaining work contemplated, and the whole gang will be available next year. 55. And the Stormberg ; is there any mtention to make that road ? — None at present. 56. That carries the road to Aliwal North ?— Yes. 57. Mr. Molteno.] Have the Government any idea when the convict establishment at the Breakwater will be broken up? — In about eighteen months, I think. 58. Has the time for which it was originally supposed they would be required not already expired ?— No, I think it will not expire till about the middle of next year. There is a written representation upon the subject that has been laid upon the table of the House. 59. Chairman.] How as to Fast London ; are the convicts likely to remain there for some time? — That will depend very much whether Parliament intends to go on with the works there. There is not a sufficient number of convicts on the works there, which have just been taken over by the Colonial Government, if the reconmiendations of Mr. Bourne are to be carried out. 60. Mr. Molteno.] Are the convicts ther(> managed pre- cisely in the same way as the colonial convicts ? — Very nearly ; some alterations have taken place since the annexa- tion of Britisli Kaiiraria, to assimilate the systems ; but nothing of any consequence, I fancy. 61. Is there any great difference in the management of them ? — Not very great ; but they are more expensive in proportion to the number of convicts. 62. But is the system nearly the same ? — Somewhat similar. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 9 63. How would the Government propose to relieve the Coi. Secretary. immediate pressure ? Where do they intend to remove the sept. 51, 186G. convicts from the different circuit courts where they are tried now? — The Government will distribute them and send them to the nearest convict stations at present, as far as that can be done. Those who are sufficiently near will go to Namaqualand, if that work be taken up. 64. But do we understand the Government to see no possibility to make any temporary arrangements until the beginning of next year, when, at any rate, the three large convict CMtablishments must be closed and removed some- where else; because if they intended to create new ones now, what would they do with these when those works are com- pleted ? — We should probably send from the Breakwater here the number of convicts required for Namaqualand, excepting some of those near Namaqualand, within reach of an overland journey, which would be very economical. By removing 300 convicts from the Breakwater, we should make room for others to come in from places nearer at hand; and by establishing at once the Ruiterbosch Pass station, 200 could be taken there in a short time. I do not see what temporary arrangements could be made for the purpose. If the road between the Kookhuis Bridge and Daggaboer's Nek are undertaken, the convicts tried in the neighbour- hood of Somerset, Bedford, and Fort Beaufort could be concentrated upon that work. 1 think it would be absolutely necessary to remove the prisoners from the districts at once, without any delay. From Beaufort West, for instance, to which the prisoners are brought for trial from the neighbouring districts, we have had represen- tations that it is necessary at once to obtain the employment of a number of special constables to guard the gaol during the sitting of the court. The magistrate contemplates that imme- diately the circuit is over, the prisoners will be sent away. The accommodation there is very inferior. Besides the number to be tried at this circuit, we have information that there are already a number of other prisoners, who will not be ready for trial this circuit. Q5. Have any applications been made from the munici- pality of Beaufort to employ convicts on the reservoir they are making now? — No application for an additional number; they could not have an additional number unless they could A. 2-'66. CONVICTS. C 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Col. Secretary, provide acccommodation for them if they mean to keep them Sept. 21, 1866. there. QQ. They employed a number of convicts after the last sitting of the court, for about a month ? — Yes. 67. And they were desirous to retain them longer, and made an application to Government to that effect ? — I am not aveare of it ; it mi^ht have been made to the magistrate, not to the Colonial Office. I do not recollect it at any rate. 68. Supposing they provide supervision and accommoda- tion for them, would there^be any objection to the employ- ment of the convicts now to be sentenced there for a period ? — I should not think there will be if they would supply the necessary accommodation, so that the Government may not be put to any extra expense. 69. Chairman'] As a general principle, do you think there would be any objection, say to employing convicts now to be sentenced in the respective districts, if such supervision and accommodation were supplied by the divisional council for a time, as a temporary arrangement? — I think if they could be worked in large parties, I would see no objection to it — in large parties, within reach of the town ; but I think it would not do to spread them about in small parties. 70. Mr. Molteno.] But such a work as that at Beaufort, close to the town, where they will be concentrated in a very small space indeed ? — I see no objection, provided the con- vict regulations can be carried out. 71. i^trictly speaking, the convict regulations, as in force at the stations, it would be impossible to carry out at such a work ? — If so, I think the convicts should be removed. 72. Chairman.] In many districts the number of convicts will be, in any case, very small. Would there be any objection to such numbers being employed locally, if means of accom- modation were supplied, and the work near at hand? — As a temporary arrangement, if absolutely necessary, I should not object to it, but 1 think it is undesirable to depart from the regulations. The judges, in sentencing them, have these regulations in mind, which, in fact, form a part of the sentence they have to undergo. 73. Mr. Molteno.] But the sentence always is " to such a place as the Governor may appoint ?" — Yes. 74. Chairman.] Do you think that the municipalities and municipal councils, generally, would be willing to accept of SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 11 the services of the prisoners about to be sentenced, as a tern- Coi. secretary. porary arrangement ? — I doubt very much if many of them sept. 21, 1866. would be if they were required to pay the expense which would have to be incurred over and above the ordinary ex- penses, such as for accommodation, supervision, and so on ; I doubt whether they would do it. 75. Mr. Molteno.l But if they provided the accommoda- tion and supervision over and above what the magistrate could provide in gaol, would that not be sufficient, without charging them with the difference in the price of rations in the particular town ? — Supposing the expense at the convict station to be something under £30 a head, as at present, everything reckoned, then, if it would cost £50 a head to keep them in a district town, I think the difference should be paid by the local bodies ; that is my idea with regard to expense. 76. But the supervision and accommodation being de- ducted, the probability is that the difference in the price of rations would not be likely to make up any such amount as that? — My impression is that they would not be pre- pared to provide that supervision and accommodation ; not to any extent to relieve the Government. 77. Chairman.'] Is your opinion founded upon any correspondence upon the subject ? — No ; but it is founded upon correspondence I have had in former times. 78. But that was before the divisional councils had to keep the roads in order ? — I do not think you could employ con- victs on the maintenance of roads in the outlying districts. 79. Mr. Molteno.] But are you not aware whether the existing local bodies anywhere have desired these convicts? —Not under the system of the convict regulations at all. 80. 1 notice by the Superintendent-General's report that the number of convicts sentenced in 1865 was very consider- able, but still the number at each particular magistracy, with the exception of two or three, was very insignificant. The largest number at any one place in the Western districts, excepting Cape Town and Beaufort, was 18 ; that was only at one place ; the next was 13, and the next 8, and then varying from 3 to 6 and 7 and up to 8. Now these numbers seem so insignificant that, if the Government is under an immediate pressure, there can be no great harm in their being temporarily retained in the towns? — Probably, as soon as the convicts 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Col. Secretary. EFG removed from time to time, the gaols are immediateljr Sept. 2J, 1866. fi^'ed with others waiting their trial. 81 I am always supposing accommodation being provided outside the gaol when the magistrate finds that there is not sufficient room within ; extra provision only being made for the constables, with a view of the localities availing them- selves of the labour ? — 1 fear this would not be done to any extent. 82. Mr. G. Wood.] From your knowledge of the regu- lations, do you not think they are very complicated and very expensive, and that they might be very much simplified and cost less money ? — I rather doubt that. I do not think them complicated. I think that as we have a large body of con- victs in custody for a number of years, we ought to do some- thing to reform them, and to raise them in the scale of civilization as much as we can, and attend to their health, and so on. 83. Mr. Molteno.] Are you not of opinion that if wc keep up permanent establishments such as we have hitherto done, and make so great an effort, that we are justified in dispensing to some extent with the regulations in the present emergency? — Yes, if we can do so economically. 84. Even to the running of some risk in the convict regu- lations not being so strictly applied as they are otherwise at the stations? — If we do that for a very limited period, [ should not object to it, 85. Mr. Munnik.] Would you not find that in many stations there are some desperate characters whom it would not be advisable to keep under a slight discipline, and that you would have some difficulty in supervising them in such localities? — My answer to that is, that the accommodation to be provided for them would be such as the Government should approve of, and not just any kind of place from which they might escape, and in which the discipline could not be exercised. 86. I see by the reports that there are such small numbers as 8, 10, and 12 in the different gaols. Amongst them there must be some tried for very serious offences — desperate characters ; these could hardly be kept safely in such districts ? — I think it would be very undesirable. 87. Dr. White] Admitting the necessity of the present convict regulations, but considering the present emergency SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 13 and pressure, might not a number of convicts be left under Coi Secretary. the superintendence of the magistrate of each district ? sept 21, isee. I may state that 1 was district surgeon of Swellen- dam for a number of years previous to the present regulations, and the number then amounted to thirty or forty under the superintendence of the magis- trate. Might not something of the same kind be done now, temporarily ? — There may be, here and there, an excep- tional case ; but, in my opinion, it would not do ; it would be very expensive, and you could not carry out properly the sentences of the judges to hard labour ; you would require a very large additional number of constables to superintend them. In fact, it would not do at all to keep them in the district town for more than short periods. 88. Mr. Molteno.] Not as a general principle, but in a case of emergency, rather than go to a very great expense in providing for them elsewhere ? — If there were really such an emergency to keep them there, the Government must do so; but I do not think it will be economical. It would be more economical to send them elsewhere. 89. Mr. G. Wood.] Do you think that the expense the divisional council would be put to for the seven, eight, or ten convicts would be very heavy. But considering the aver- age number that the Government maintain and clothe would not their labour be actually cheaper ? — I find that the aver- ajxe number at the present time is very much in excess of what is stated there. The average number at the circuit towns now must be very much in excess of that. 90. Mr. Molteno.] Taking such a place as Cape Town, with 41, Beaufort 37, those two places reduce the average upon the others very much ? — The average number of prisoners is very much in excess of that. There are forty for trial at Riversdale, a small place. 91. Mr. G.Wood.] Have you ever compared the cost of our convict department with the cost of that in any other part of the world ? — I have not done so, but it has been com- pared; I do not think ours cost more than those of other countries. 92. Chairman.] Assuming that those works are to be commenced, is the committee to understand that the usual staff will be appointed at each place? — I imagine so; but, as I have said, it is not intended to appoint a staff at the George 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Col. Secretary, and KnysHE Toads until the Vlugt convicts are brought there. SeptT^i866. The appointments of the staff are all temporary ; the officers are not considered as in the service. 93. The usual charge will be paid by the Government and not the extra charge ? — No ; but I think the divisional council of Namaqualand will pay the cost of the staff. 94. Could you give the committee any correspondence which you may have had with the divisional council of Namaqualand upon this subject ? — Yes. 95. Can you inform the committee what proportion of convicts belong to the second or probationary class ?— No. 96. Mr. Molteno.] Do you think there would be any danger or difficulty in drafting a number of the second and third class convicts from the main station, say at the Knysna, to such work as the Ruiterbosch Poort, with a diminished number of overseers, without subjecting them to the full convict discipline? — I think they should be subject to the convict discipline contemplated by the regulations of that class; and they would require at least the same amount of accommodation as any other description of convict barracks; it would require to be as strong as barracks ordinarily are, which is not very strong, 'i hey would not be able to do without the same official staff, but, perhaps, the number of constables might be less. 97. But the third class of convicts would not want anything like that? — The good-conduct class is only a very small proportion. 98. At present a number of the second-class convict* are employed at distances from the main stations ? — No ; the second-class are under the same restrictions as the penal class, and they have the same number of constables and overseers. 99. Chairman.'] Are you able to tell us what proportion of escaped convicts are from the penal class, and what propor- tion from the other classes? — 1 cannot say. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 15 Monday, September 24, 1866. PRESENT ; Mr. RuTHERFOORD (Chairman), Mr. Darnell, | Dr. White, „ Munnik, j Mr. Molteno, Treasurer-General, j „ G. Wood. C PierSy Esq., Supt.-General of Convicts, examined. 100. Chairman.l You are aware of the object of this c.Pter*, Esq. committee ? — I presume it is to inquire into convict matters, sept. 24 ises. in connection with the Governor's message. 101. Have you read the Governor's mf'ssage ? — No, I have not. 102. Are the number of convicts at the different stations mentioned in that message correct ? — I am provided with the numbers at all the stations up to the 22nd of the present month. From these returns it appears that on the 15th September there were 758 convicts at the Breakwater, in- cluding 15 at Robben Island ; at the same date there were 398 at the Vlugt ; on the 8th September there were 370 at the Katberg ; at the same date 1 88 at the Kowie and 1 10 at East London ; making a total of 1,824. 103. It appears, then, that this number is slightly less than that contained in the Governor's message ? — Yes. 104. From what cause does it arise? — From discharges, owing to the expiration of sentences. 105. Are you in a position to state what the proportions respectively are in all the different classes of convicts recog- nized by your regulations ? — No ; I can only give it for the month of August at the Breakwater. I did not bring the papers connected with other stations with me. In that month the good-conduct-ticket class was 46, in the probation class there were 564, and in the penal class 163; the total was 773. I will furnish the committee with a copy of similar returns for all the other stations, if desired. 106. Mr. Molteno.] Is there any distinction between any of those in Class No. 2 ? Are there convicts in that class which the officers of the establishment would consider more 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE a Piers, E sq. trustworthy, — who could more safely be eutrusted with out- Sept. 24, 1866. station work than others ? — There are men in the probation class who receive no indulgences ; they have been put in the probation class because they are under short sentences ; and we do not put such men in the penal class unless they are very bad characters. No man in the probation class enjoys the privileges of it in full until one sixth of the original sentence has expired, and it is then only that he receives in- dulgences, such as being allowed to see his friends, smoking, &c. In the same way, the men who are at once put in the penal class must serve one sixth of their time before they are allowed promotion to the probation class. 107. Then there arc distinctions in the probationary class as well ? — Yes. 108. Chairman.'] Is that the only distinction in accordance with the regulations ? — Yes, only that one distinction with regard to their indulgences. 109. Mr. Molteno.] Are they all on a dead level ? — There is that distinction. The committee will understand that when a man is sent to us under a short sentence, and he is not a bad character, he is at once put in the probationary gang. Say that he is sentenced for two years, he is put in the probationary gang ; but he is not allowed to receive tobacco, to see his friends, or to have any indulgences until one sixth of the time of his sentence has expired. If there are any marks against him the term at which the indul- gences are granted is extended. 110. Mr. G. Wood.] How long must a convict be at a station before he receives a good-conduct ticket? — He must pass one sixth of his time before he gets into the pro- bation class, and two-fifths of the period before he can get a good-conduct ticket. 111. Mr. Molteno.] Then, although there may be pri- soners in the probation class who from their conduct would be entitled to become good-conduct men, they are, from the nature of the regulations, it seems, debarred from that privi- lege if they have not served their time ? — It is only uni- form good conduct from the commencement that will entitle them to it. 112. But there may be convicts in the probation class whose conduct would really entitle them to tickets of good conduct, but the nature of the regulations is such that such SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 17 tickets cannot be given to them^ — Yes; but I may tell you a Piers, Esq. at once that a proportion of these men whose conduct is sept. 24, isee. most exemplary as convicts, no sooner become free than they get into trouble again, and, when convicts again, conduct themselves well. 1 13. What proportion are men of that character? — I am not aware ; I do not think it would be possible to make anything like a percentage. 114. The Colonial Secretary told us that the average of reconvictions was about five per cent. ? — I am not able to say. 115. You stated that no sooner are these men freed than they are convicted again. Can you give us any idea how many of these are good-conduct men? — 1 cannot say from memory ; but 1 remember several cases of reconviction where the men, as convicts, were excellent characters. 116. Mr. MoUeno.] Are not such cases very rare? — Very rare. 117. Chairman.] Can you give us any idea of the percentage of reconvicted convicts? — At the moment I cannot ; it varies every year. 118. Do many escapes take place? — Comparatively speaking, few ; but attempts to escape are frequent. 119. From which class? — The records show that the probation class furnishes the greatest number of deserters. 120. The good-conduct men have very considerable privileges? — They have fewer privileges now than the regu- lations contemplated ; but I may mention that was in con- sequence of finding that the system, as intended, did not work. They were intended to be nominally in custody, to be treated more as gangs of free labourers, to be almost com- pletely unguarded, and to receive pay at the rate of four pence a day. But we found that was open to so many abuses, and the work was so badly done, that part of the system has been done away with. 12U What are those abuses to which you allude? — They were formerly unmarked, and not obliged to sleep in barracks. Now they are guarded, and their intercourse with free people is under much greater restriction, and the money they ought to have received accumulates to their credit and is paid to them on their discharge. 122. Then, probably, there is now not any very great difference between the privileged probation class and the A. 2-66. CONVICTS. ^ 18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE c. Piers, Esq. good-concluct men ? — There must be a creat difference, from SeptTiiTisee. the eagerness with which the probation men earn the quali- fication to be admitted to the other class. 123. Mr. Darnell] How was it that the old system did not work well ? — Some of the men at Howison's Poort and some at the Katberg afforded very little satisfaction. The place where they were located became a receptacle for all the idlers about ; all kinds of irregularities occurred, and even in one instance a sheep , stolen was traced to them at the Katberg. Some desertions have also taken place from the gang, and it was difficult to keep them to their work. 124. Chairman.] Are they guarded while at work ? — No; but they are in charge of an overseer to direct the work. 125. Are they locked up at night ? — Yes. 126. Mr. Molteno.] Do you allude to the Breakwater work or to all the stations? — No ; every one is locked up at the Breakwater. At the Kowie there has been very great laxity; but, from the distance it is situated from Cape Town, it is difficult to get proper information. There has been much greater laxity there than there ought to have been. 127. Mr. Molteno.] In your report for 1865 there is a paragraph in which Mr. Fisk suggests the introduction of a ticket-of-leave system ? — I am not responsible for Mr. Fisk's representations. I only inserted his report because 1 thouoht it mio'ht be considered interestino. Of? O . 128. Chairman.] But, practically, do you endorse his sentiments, or not? — Certainly not. 129. Mr. Molteno.] Have you ever made yourself acquainted with the Irish convict system ? — So far as taking a great interest in tlic question, and readino; as many books upon the subject as I could lay hands upon. 130. And what conclusion have you come to? — That, for Ireland, it is an admirable system. 131. Why for Ireland, and not f^r this Colony? — I do not see why if it suits Ireland it should suit the Cape of Good Hope. 132. But could you give us a reason why if it answers in the one case it should not answer in others? — In Ireland they have a large constabulary, and the convicts could soon be traced if they did anything wrong ; and they have thus a greater control over them, and this induces them to behave SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 19 themselves. But here T do not see what control you can have. c. piers, Esq. As soon as a man is even outside of the town you do not know septlllsee what becomes of him. In fact, although Mr. Fisk is very care- ful, and takes a great deal of trouble about discharged convicts, and writes to missionaries and clergymen about them, he seldom if ever gets a report in reply, and does not know what becomes of the men after they are dis- charged. 133. Your idea is, that under the Irish system every con- vict is under a system of surveillance ? — Yes. 134. I think if you had studied the system you would find that not to be the case ? — But there, directly a man is arrested he is recognized. 135. 1 am afraid, from what you have already said, that you would be unfavourable to any modification of the con- vict regulations, such as recommending the employment of a portion of good-conduct men at a distance from the station, under a much less strict system of surveillance? — Yes, I am ; but I would distinguish between the convict who is tried by the magistrate, either under the limited jurisdiction or extended jurisdiction Act, and the convict who is tried by a judge and jury. I think it advisable that a distinction should be made in the way of carrying out the sentences. I have always been of opmion, and have expressed it often, that convicts who are tried by the magistrates, whether under the limited or extended jurisdiction, ought to be kept to expend their labour in the district where they are con- victed. I would not mix up these prisoners with the Supreme or Circuit Court prisoners. 136. No matter what the sertence of the magistrate is? — Yes ; even the two years' prisoners. 1 do not see any danger in making the experiment on men of this class. I may mention that I happen to know that Captain Rainier actually tried the experiment and succeeded. He manages in this way : One of his constables is employed as a sort of overseer, and he has a small proportion of respectable labour- ing men, supplied by the divisional council at so much per day, and they get an extra shilling a day, for which they undertake the duties of constables, to act only in case of any attempt at escape ; but they labour like the others. In that way he has worked several gangs of convicts, and found it very profitable and very satisfactory. 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE c. Piers, Esq. 137. Treasurcr- General.'] What is the number of the SeptllTisee. convicts? — I think he told me he had upwards of twenty, and he has only one constable. 138. Mr. G. Wood.] You refer now to the convicts sentenced by the magistrates. Are the convict regulations strictly enforced? — We have nothing to do with them unless they are sent to the stations. 139. Chairman.] Are they not sent to the convict stations when they receive a two lyears' sentence? — Yes, with rare exceptions. 140. Can you tell us what these rare exceptions are to the rule ? — In Clanwilliam the convicts sentenced there lately are kept in the district. 141. Mr. Molteno.] Are there a great many at Clan- william? — I cannot say. 142. Mr. Darnell.] Are they kept in gaols? — I can- not say. I know only that they have a body of men there. I know they applied to me for arms to guard them. 143. Chairman] Do they in any way figure in your returns ? — Not until they are handed over to us. 144. Then you are not, in fiict, the Superintendent of these men, although they are convicted for so long a period as two years, if they are uot actually sent to a convict station ? — No. 145. None of these are sentenced by the judge? — No. They are from the magistracies of Springbok, Calvinia, and Clanwilliam ; and those from Piketberg and Tulbagh have also been ordered up there.* 146. Mr. 3Iolteno.] Then at present, at the several convict stations, there already exists a class of men who, you think, could safely be kept in the country, and who need not be sent up to the stations at all ? — Yes ; I stated that in my report last year. 147. Do you think there would be any difficulty in selecting those men at the convict stations, and putting them in the same position ? — No difficulty. We could tell you all about them — their characters, why they were convicted, by whom, and where. * This I found subsequently to be a mistake. Thirty-seven men from the last- circuit courts in tliat neighbourhood were allowed by the Goyeraor to be retained in the district for the present. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 21 148. You must be more or less intimately acquainted c. Piers, Esq. with the convicts at the Breakwater. I suppose you visit sept. 24, 1866. them frequently ? — Yes, very often. 149. Do you think a number of these men, say 150 or 200, could be selected from those convicts and sent to Honde- klip Bay to work in the manner you describe them as doing at the magistracies. ? Their characters would be such that you could apprehend no serious danger from it ? — I am not prepared to advise that. I would only employ those convicted in the magistrates' courts. 150. Mr. G. Wood.] Why do you draw that distinction? — Because I think it would have a good moral effect upon the population generally. If they felt that to be tried by the magistrates was a less serious thing than being tried by a judge, there would be some fear felt by them. There is a different feeling entertained by these people about such matters. I think people have become so familiar with the convict stations that their fear has been very much lessened, although I can recollect that formerly they thought differently of it. It was then said, '• If you do so and so, you will go to Robben Island." Robben Island was a dreadful place to them then, and the effect was salutary. 151. They are too comfortable now, you think ? — I do not admit that. 152. Mr. Molteno.] Apart from your consideration of the effect it might have generally upon the criminally disposed population, do you think at the present moment, under the exceptional pressure which now exists, relief might be ob- tained by detaching, say, a band of the best class of convicts, and some who are under short sentences, and so on, and send- ing them to Hondeklip Bay? — Well, if I was asked to select the convicts under His Excellency's authority, I should take the worst men, those in the first or penal class. It is to throw these men among the population of Cape Town that I fear the most ; and sending them to a distance would be the best plan of getting rid of those people. As I said before, I am not disposed to recommend the relaxation of convict disci- pline, excepting in the case of prisoners tried by the magistrate. 153. Can you tell us what proportion of convicts you have at the Breakwater who have been tried by magistrates ? — Not at the moment. 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE c. Piers, Esq. 154. Have you reason to believe that those convicts vvould SeptTilTi'^GG. be really different from the bulk of other convicts sentenced by the judges ? — Yes, very different. 155. Those who plead guilty receive two years from the magistrate ? — Yes. 156. What leads you to suppose that there is such adiflfer- ence between them ? — From my seeing them constantly ; and, having seen a great number of those who have come back to the Breakwater, f?om my own experience generally. 157. Chairman] You have said that you would recom- mend the employment of those convicts in the divisions in which they are convicted, in case they are sentenced by the magistrates ? — Yes. 158. If it be the fact that men may be sentenced by the mao'istrate for only two years for crimes which, had they been tried by a judge and jury, they would have been sen- tenced to a longer imprisonment, does not that affect your view? — There may be exceptional cases; and, now you point that out, I would make an exceptional case of that. But 1 speak as a rule. J 59. Mr. Molteno.] But at the convict stations, are there not found in the probation class men of different characters and conduct, known to the superintendents and others, that the superintendent could, if asked to select a number, say, " These men I consider may be safely taken ?" — The superin- tendent could hardly be trusted with that. IGO Any other officer, then ? — I think the only men you can really depend upon will be some of those whose sentences are nearly expired, — say within four months or so, — a portion of whose sentences has been remitted, which would remove the temptation to desert. 161. Can you tell us what number of men there are at the Breakwater station whose sentences will expire within six months? — I could furnish the committee with that infor- mation. 162. What is the average number discharged from the Breakwater monthly ? — I cannot say ; but I find from the returns before me that in July there were 30 and in August 12. 163. Mr. G. Wood.] Could you aflbrd the committee any information whether convicts who have been sentenced to imprisonment and the lash are reconvicted for any crime? — SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 23 I will look over the reconvictions and former sentences c.piers.Esq. inflicted. Sept. 24, isee. 164. Chairman,'}. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of corporal punishment, whether it has a deterring effect from reconviction, or not ? — I have had some expe- rience during the sixteen or seventeen years that, as magistrate or Superintendent-General of Convicts, I have had dealings with these men, and I have found that there arc many men who really do not understand what punishment is, except through the lash. I am quite sure that there are many white men who would die rather than be flogged. Perhaps the Hottentots and Bushmen take their flogging the best ; they think very little about the disgrace of it, or of the disgrace of being in the convict station. 165. Can you tell us with regard to flogging the Kafirs? — They fear the lash very much. 166. Then your idea is, that the system of short punish- ments and the lash would have a greater deterring effect from crime than long imprisonments? — I think so. 167. Mr. Molteno.] What do you think of spare diet and solitary confinement ? — If you put them on spare diet and solitary confinement you do not get any work out of them ; but 1 think most men consider it a severe punish- ment. 168. Chairman.] It is an unprofitable one to the public, you think? — Yes. 169. Treasurer- General.] Would not your proposal to leave the prisoners sentenced by the magistrates at the gaols, instead of sending them to the stations, have the effect of merely relieving the stations at the expense of the gaols? — Yes, of course; but I think it would be less expensive alto- gether. 170. Chairman.] That is assuming that the necessary arrangements are made for accommodation and superinten- dence? — Yes. 171. Mr. Munnik.] Have you had any experience of this ? — J am only speaking from information I have received from others. I have had no opportunity of testing it myself; but I think that if Capt. Rainier s plan is carried out, having only one ordinary constable and a number of free labourers work- ing with the gang, and sworn in as special constables, there would be a considerable saving of superintendence. 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE c. Piers, Esq. 172. Tveasurev- General.'] Do you know how the pri- SeptiliTisee. soners under Capt. Rainier's system are housed ? — I think in the p;aol at Worcester. 173. What makes you think that it would be less expen- sive at the gaols ? Is the cost of rations less at the gaols than at the convict stations ? — I do not think it is more expensive, but rather less. 174. Why do you think it is less expensive at the gaols ? — I think the machinery of one constable, and I s. a day to the free labourers, much: cheaper than the machinery at the Breakwater, where you have a full staff ; and then, there is the expense of transport, which is also a considerable item. 17.5. Have you not shown by your report that there has been a great reduction of the expense by concentrating the convicts in large masses, such as is the case at the Break- water ? — Yes ; very considerable. 176. Would not the reversal of the system, by distributing them in the country gaols, as you suggest, increase the ex- pense? — But you must make a distinction between convict matters and the prison arrangements at the magistracies. No doubt the distribution of convicts is always a source of great expense under the present convict system. J77. Does it not follow that, if massing tliem reduces the expense, having them distributed will have a contrary effect? — I do not quite see it in the same light, for the prisoners in the gaol are to be worked ; they are kept on the spot and they are under less restraint than our convicts. If they cannot be housed in the gaol, perhaps some temporary building may be hired by the boards ; so that the system must be less expensive than sending them to the convict stations, where you would have the necessary staff of constables to pay for. 178. Mr. 3fimni/i.] Is your convict system carried out in respect to those criminals kept in the different districts ? — I know nothing about them. Of course it would be a relaxed system altogether. 179. Your relaxed system, so strongly recommended, could it not be tried there ? — I should say, try it as a rule and as an experiment upon all the prisoners of the magistracies ; but send those that are convicted by a jury to the station, 180. Mr Molteno.] What is your particular objection to the third-class men being placed in the same position ? — Those men are liable at any moment to be sent to the penal SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 25 gang, and to forfeit all their indulgences, which is the only c.Piers,Esq means we have to keep them on their good behaviour, sept. 24, isce. It would be madness to lose such control, and thus lose all chance of keeping them in check. IS I Mr. Munnik.'] Do you not think some check could be kept up without the machinery which is at present employed at the convict stations? — I think not. 182. What objection would there be to sending back such men to the stations ? — Take, for instance, such men as you propose to send to Namaqualand ; you could not send them back if they misbehaved. Now it should always be in our power to punish them severely and send them back to the penal class. 183. Your probation class seems to consist of four fifths of the convicts at the station ; and it seems that no man, however good his conduct may be, can be admitted to the third class until he has served nearly one half of his sentence? —Yes. 184. If a party of 200 men were made up out of the probation class, and your third class were employed upon a work such as the Namaqualand road, could not a sufficient control be kept up by the dread of their being sent back to a penal gang which is kept up at Namaqualand ? — Then it would be, in fact, a convict station. 185 But under a relaxed system? — I do not recommend a relaxed system, so far as the station is concerned. 186. Mr. Moltcno.] Would you have any great difficulty, supposing you hud second-class and third-class men there, and supposing that a man knowing that for any misconduct he would be sent back to the Breakwater, with probably the cancellation of all previous indulgences, — would there be any great difficulty in sending them there under the express understanding that they would be liable to be sent back? Would it not be running the risk of a small expense, and nothing more? — Oh, yes. 187. Chairman.^ Are cases numerous of people being reduced to the penal gang ? — No. 188. They are only more numerous if under relaxed dis-^^ cipline ?— Oh, yes. And the more secure the barracks are, the fewer attempts there are at escapes ; and when the buildings are not very secure there is soon a combination and plans formed to escape. A. 2— '66. CONVICTS. E 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE t. /^.V/s, iisq. Is9. Mr. MoltcnoA Would not this plan of sending them Sert724, 18GG. to Namacjualand, under the full understanding that for the slightest misconduct they will have to return to the Break- water. — would it not be practically putting them in another probation class, and fit them the better for mixing with the population again ? — I think that many of those men would say, " For God's sake, do not send us there ;" and they would misconduct themselves to be sent hack again. 390. Chairwan.'] Then the sending them to Namac;uaUmd would seem to be of all other systems of punishment the most irksome to them ? — Yes ; that is why 1 say that I wish I could send all the worst characters that distance ; and when their time was expired they would become absorbed amongst the population of the country, and find honest labour, which they could not in Cape Town. ID I. Then you would propose to send the worst class of n)en there for your own sake? — For my own sake, and for the sake of the country and of the convicts themselves. 192. [t would certainly seem from your evidence that the relaxed state of discipline in the country would be more intolerable t ) the convicts than the regular system at the convict station ? — No J^ut I think the men in iSama- qualand, at the magi^tr^lcies, and in their own country, are much more likely to conduct themselves well than men in such a gang as proposed for Namaqualand, who have per- ha|!S wives and families in Cape i'own ; and it would be irksome to them to go there, and 1 think they would mis- conduct themselves to get back. 193. Mr. Darnell.] But many of them have not wives and famdies here? — A great many of them have. 19-1. Of thost' at the Tit-ak water ? - Yes ; a great many ot them are married; at ail esenls they have relations and friends. 195. Mr. Cr Wood] Is lliere not a large number at the Breakwater from the Lu:steru l^rovince, Katirs and others? — Not so many now ; for the last eighteen months none have come down. 19G. But there are long-sentenced men among them? — Yes. 197. Mr. 3/o//e;io.] Are the convicts benefited by being at the Breakwater station, where then* wives and children are SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 27 far removed from them ? — They have an opportunity of c. Piers, Esq. seeing them weekly if they are good-conduct men. SeptTilTisefi. 198. That must apply to a very few instances ; some wives and families must be living at the Paarl, Stellenbosch, and those di>tricts, who could not therefore come up so easdy ? — Yes ; but their brothers and sisters, and fathers and mothers come to see them from long distances. You always find that when these men are discharged from the convict station tiiey invariably work their way down the country, and turn up at some missionary institution where their friends are. 199. Your idea is that it is an evil to discharge them in Cape 'J own ? — 1 decidedly think so. 200. TreasiiJ'if -General.] As far as I can gather, your idea is that we should send the worst convicts to Namaqua- land, as a sort of transportation ? — Yes; and at the same time it would be an advantage to them if they desired to have an opportunity of becoming honest. 201. Mr. G. Wood.] Supposing you have a number of bad men in Namaqualand, when their sentences expire would they not work their way back from Namaqualand, and rob the farmers on the road? — I think the very reverse, in returning to their homes and families they avoid misconduct. With the Kafir it is ditf'erent. He is a different man altogether, 'i'he farther he goes liom the station, and the nearer he gets to his home, the fewer constables he comes across ; but the nearer the man who has his family in this neighbourhood comes to the town, the greater the number of gaols and constables he meets, which decreases the chances of doing wrong without detection. 202. Chairman.] You have a return which shows the cost of the establishment and discipline for a large number of years ?— Yes, for the last twenty years. I will furnish the committee with a copy. 203. Treasurer- (jeneraL] Is the expense of discipline and guarding convicts less now than it was under the old regulations? — I do not know of any differ- ence. 204. Are there fewer constables and oificeis guarding prisoners than there used to be l — The average proportion has been one constable to every ten convicts. 205. Under both regulations?— Yes, under both.. 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE c. Piers, Esq. 206. Mf. G. TTooc?.] Are more officers required now Sept. 24, 1866. Under the new convict res^ulations than under the convict system of Mr. Montagu of 1844 ? — Not that 1 am aware of. 207. Did you under the old system have chaplains and doctors at every station ? — Always. 208. CIiair77ian.] With reference to the escapes, what proportion is recaptured? Are they not, in point of fact, nearly all recaptured ? — No; sometimes they are all recap- tured, but many of them .get away, and are never heard of again. A good deal depends upon the nature of the country they are working in, 209 But, taking the average for a number of years, what is about the proportion of the escapes to the recaptures? — That 1 cannot say. I may state that the greatest number of escapes take place where the number of constables is largest ; it all depends upon the facilities afforded by the country where the stations are placed. A good many of them escaj)ed in the forests about the Katberg, and also in the Knysna forests ; they creep away, and there is no catching them in the thick cover. 210. Your proportion of the penal class is small as com- pared with the probationary class ; yet you tell us that the escapes are nearly all from the penal class? — No, the most are fr< mi the probationary class. 21 I. Can you give us a return of these escapes for the last few years, specifying the classes from which thev escaped ? ->Yes. 212. Mr. Molleno.] Have you the same objections to removing convicts from the good-conduct class and the pro- bation class lit the Knysna station, say to such a work as the Ruiterbosch station, on a relaxed system, as you have to the removal of convicts from the Breakwater works to Namaqua- land ? — It would not do to send them from the Vlugt. 1 think they will desert, i'hey cannot do that at Namaqualand, for they would have a desert to •:o through to get there. 213. C/iairn.an.] \\ ith reference to the different stations, can you give us any information ! Have you visited them within the last few years? — I have not visited the stations in the East for the last three years. 214. Have you reliable information as to the amount of nrconmiodation at all of them ? — Not sufficiently reliable, but 1 can give it you [tielty nearly at all the stations. At the SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 29 Katberg station it was said to be full last month ; they were c PiVs, Esq. too full to receive any more convicts from Queen's Town. Sept. 24, 1866. 215. What is the number they can accommodate ? — They had 350 last month; but they are increasing the accommo- dation for 60 or 70 more, so that they will be able to accommodate 400 or 420 altogether. 216. iVIr Munnik.1 How long would they bo required at the Katberg before the work is finished ? ~ I do not know ; that is an engineering question. 217. Chairman.^ With regard to the Breakwater, has that at present as many upon it as it can bear? — They have 43 more than they can properly provide tor ; the accommo- dation provided is for 700, and they have now 743. 21s. Are there any buildings there which might be made available, and would be sufficiently secure to provide for an additional number of convicts for a short time? — There are none, — not within the walls of the convict establishment. 219. Are there any within your knowledge which could be made available, and made sufficiently safe for a time? — ^No doubt there a/e. There are vvine stores in the Somerset Koad which could be made secure. 220. Mr. Molteno^ Ts it not a fact that the Harbour Board Commissioners were willing to take an additional 200 convicts, and to provide temporary ciccommodation in a yard with tents if that would have been considered satisfactory? 1 have no knowledge of it. 221. What do you think of such a proposal ? — We have had them in tents in an enclosed yard, in consequence of not havino- sufficient accommodation. It was at the commence- ment of the winter, and the medical man told us that it was impossible to guarantee the health of the station if this was continued, so the Government authorized the removal of 100 men to the Knysna, to make room. 222. Would the same objection apply in summer weather? — Yes. 223. Mr. Darnell.'] Would it have been worse in sum- mer? — Yes; all the drainage of the houses affected the yard, and a fever broke out among the men. 224. Chairman,'] How many men does the hospital pro- vide for? — For 17 or 18 men; there is very little illness among the men. I have never found all the beds occupied, excepting on one or two occasions, when there was influenza 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE c. Pier*, Esq. about, Qncl about 200 to 300 of the men kept to their own Sept. 24, 186G. TOOmS. • • , /. i, 225. With regard to the Vlugt station, is that fully occupied? — Yes. They cannot take any more there; but in a week they could take 100 more, for they have plenty of materials at hand for erecting efficient buildings there ; it is done very rapidly. 226. Mr. Munnik.] When will that work be finished? — I do not know, but I think very soon. 227. Chairman.] Whatiiii formation can you give us of the Kowie ? — They are too full ; they have not more than two hundred cubic feet of air per man. 228. Flave you any information of anything new being erected there? — No. 229. Do you believe there is? — I think not; but a new building was erected there last year 230. Have you any instructions with regard to the number of cubic feet of air to be allowed to each man ? — There is no rule in the Colony ; but this is a question generally settled by the Governor. Unless they have at least four hundred cubic feet, no more men are sent to that station 231. 2 reasiwer- General.] 'VUdi is the rule ? — It was left unsettled; but it would depend upon the kind of building erected. I cannot give an opinion upon it without a plan of the building. 232. In what state is the station at East London ? — I believe that also contains as many as it can properly hold. 233. Mr. Munnik.] What time do you think would it take to erect the necessary accommodation at the Kniterbosch Pass for employing about 200 or 300 men there? — I can- not say. I do not know where the materials are to come from. 234 Mr. Aloiteno] 1 hose materials you have stated to be available at the Vlugt, are they such as could be removed to Ruiterbosch? — It would not be worth that; they are only weatherboards, slabs they get from the saw-pits, which would not be worth moving. 235. Is there any other officer at the Breakwater you tliink could give us any idea of the general character of the probation class ? — Yes, the superintendent ; and assistant superintendent, also Mr. Fisk. 236. I see by the Governor's message that there are now four new stations proposed? — Yes ; at Breakfast Vlei, the Sept. 24, 1866. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 31 Kookliuis Drift, the Ruiterbosch Pass, and Namaqualand c.Piers,Esq. road. 237. Do you know whether it is contemplated to have a chaplain, schoolnnaster, and doctor at all those stations? — I do not know ; but I presume that if we put up convict stations anywhere, the usual staff will have to be provided for. Tuesday^ September 25, J 866. PRESENT : Hon. Treasurer-General (Acting Chairman), Mr. Darnell, I Dr. White, „ Molteno, | Mr. Munmk. Mr. M. R, Robinson t Chief Inspector of Public Works, examined. 238. Chairman.^ Has your attention been called to tlie Mr. Governor's message with regard to the works proposed for "^^^ '^l:?!^"'"'" the convicts? — 1 have seen the Governor's message. Sept. 25, 1866. 239. The works there referred to are the Namaqualand road, the Ruiterbosch road, the road to the Knysna, the road from Graham's Town to King William's Town, to which has to be added the road between the Kookhuis Bridge and Daggaboer's Nek. The committee will be obliged by any information you can give as to the expense and probable duraticm of those several works. Now, with regard to the Namaqualand road ? — The information can be obtained in the correspondence 1 have already addressed to the Government ; but I can speak generally of these works as to their duration and probable cost. I think that the road from Hondeklip Bay to Springbok will occupy, if the whole of the line be constructed by convict labour, 350 convicts for about four years. If only the heaviest portions of the work are undertaken by convicts, then it will occupy 300 convicts about three years, and the cost of the engineer- ing department, for tools, superintendence, and surveys, would be about £1,000 or £J,200 a year. 1 32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. 240. You mean only engineerinp; superintendence, not -■'^•^^i:!^"*''" convict superintendence ?— No, I am only speaking of the Sept. L'5, lacfi. j.Qyj department. 241. is it contemplated to execute that portion of the road where it was intended to make the tramway; is that included in your estimate? — Yes, because of the informa- tion recently received arising- ivom the survey by Mr. Hall of the country, who reported to the directors that a tramway was not necessar} . , 242. Is a hiird road necessary over that part of the line ? — Yes; a good deal of it is sand. 243. Why was it not considered necessary to make a tramway there?- 1 believe that after Mr. IJall examined the country, he did not think it necessary to go to such a heavy expense as a tramway, and that an ordinary road would do very well. 244. Dr. White.] It was about twelve miles long ?— About fifteen or sixteen miles, I think. 245. Air. Dar?iell] Would it not cost a good deal to make a hard road over the soft sand? — It is not so soft throughout as it was at first thought to be. 246. Dr. White] Then, in either case, the sandy part was to be made a hard road? — Yes, if a ti'amway \\as not made. 247. Chairman.] '1 he tools referred to include, of course, carts and mules, and everything that may be considered necessary? — Yes; the whole would cost about £1,000 or £1,200 a year. 248. Now as to the Ruiterbosch Pass ?-- -There are about twelve miles of road to be constructed. 1 think it will occupy 180 convicts nearly two years. The divisional council proposes to bear all the engineering expenses. 249. \Miatever that may be? — Yes. 250. Dr. White.] Are those twelve miles at Ruiterbosch extraordinarily heavy to require so many men? — Towards the summit there is some heavy work. There is about three miles on the summit which is very bad. 251. Chairman.] Do you think it is a feasible work; can they make a road there ? — Yes, it will make an admirable road. 252. Mr. Molteno] When the summit is attained is there much difficulty in descending to Oudtshoorn? — It I SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 33 will require about two miles scarping ; but from Uhat it is Mr. open ground. 31. R. Robinson 253. Dr. White.] You say that the divisional council Sept. 25, 1866. will undertake the expense of the plant and everything else ? — Yes. 254. Chairman.] How far is the road from George to Knysna proposed to be carried at present ? — The first pro- posal was to carry the road from the present pontoon to Mr. Barri no ton's, crossing the Houtini and the Karatera towards George, avoiding those terrible dips of Kaaimans Gat and the Trek aan de Touw. 255. That was the original intention? — No, that is the recent plan. 256. Did any modification of that take place ? — A survey was made by Mr. de Smidt, I think four years aoo. That takes the road below by the lakes, but it was abandoned, owing to its being very sandy, and there being no materials to make it. But yesterday morning, I received a letter from the Government, intimating that they still considered that that road could be made. 257. Thenthp engineering question seems not to be settled yet? — So far as 1 am concerned, it is ; but the Government would seem to think that the lower road could be adopted. 258. Mr. Darnell.] That is the present intention of Government, — only to make the road as far as the east bank of the Trek aan de Touw ; you are not aware of that limi- tation ?— No. 259. Chairman.] From George to Trek aan de Touw, the road would be left an open question as to which two further lines should be taken ? — The other portion of the line is much further on. 260. Mr. Darnell.] I could not understand the nature of the message, because both the divisional council of the Knysna and the divisional council of George have agreed upon this road ; that the road surveyed by Mr. Bain should be the road. JNow what has induced the Government to change its mind upon the subject, 1 cannot understand ? — I am not aware. 261. The Government propose to move the convict station from the Viugt to near George ? — Yes. It was intended to move them to the neighbourhood of George, about four miles from that place. A. 2— 06. CONVICTS. ^ 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE iTr. 262. And that Ruiterbosch should be a sort of out-station ■ ' to the main station at George ? — No, that was not the inten- Sept. 25, 1866. ^j^^^ . ^^gy -would be too far apart for that. 263. Chairman ] The road from Georo;e to Trek aan de Touw there is no difference of opiuion about ; that can be commenced at once? — Yes. 264. i hen we are to understand that from George to Trek aan de Touw the work can be at once commenced, while the other question as to the prolongation of the road remains in abeyance ? — From the recent instructions it would appear so. 265. What time would that occupy the convicts? — I must refer you to Mr. Bain's report upon the subje^^t. 266. Can you give us any information as to the road from Graham's Town to King William's Town? — The road com- mences at Breakfast Vlei ; the main road from Graham's Town to Breakfast Vlei has already been made. From that point to King William's Town no main road has been sur- veyed or constructed ; they have used the old roads, and very bad they are now. The Government proposed it long ago, and a great deal of correspondence, extending over some years, as to the best line of road, occurred. It is a difficult question to decide, and the whole of the correspond- ence has been sent to Mr. Trill, the late Engineer of British KatlVaria, with a request that he would make a trial survey and estimate of two or three Imes. He has written to say that there are two lines which appear to be practicable ; he is now going on with the survey of the sections and estimates. 207. 'J'here is no estimate made yet? — No estimate of it, nor any knowledge of what the line will be. Then there is the work from Kookhuis Drift to Dajr^-aboer s Nek, a distance of thirteen miles ; it is a very necessary work, and should be commenced, otherwise the bridge will be finished, and there will be no main road to travel over. It will occupy 150 convicts about fifteen or eighteen months; but 1 would add that, had it not been for the extreme pressure placed upon Government at the time to provide employment for the con- victs, I should have preferred doing that road by free labour. Free labour is cheap up there. You can get men for 2s. per day, who are no expense to the Government, and for whom you do not require barracks and discipline, or any cost of that kind. It was only on account of the Government being so pressed at the time to provide stations for these men that I SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 35 suggested the work might be done by convict labour The Mr. distance is thirteen miles through an open country, excepting ^^' ^' ^^^"'^°"' for a mile and a half through Esterhuizen's Poort. ^^p*' '^^' ^^^^• 268. Chairman.^ And that is a pressing work you con- sider ? — It is very necessary, for they are going on rapidly with the bridge, and it will take fifteen or eighteen months to complete the road. So that, unless the road is opened to the bridge, the bridge will be no assistance to the trunk line. 269. Mr. Molteno.'] Have you formed an estimate of what it will cost by free labour ?— Yes; I think under £3,000. 270. Ts the present road in such a state that it cannot be travelled over at all ? — I do not mean to say that it cannot be travelled over at all, but it is in a very bad condition, and a new road has been sanctioned by Parliament. 271. Mr. Darnell.] Will you show us how much of the Katberg is to be completed as far as the convicts are con- cerned ? — I have here a plan of the Katberg road, the whole of it from Ox Kraal, or from Tyalie's Poort, to the summit level will be finished at the close of the year. From the summit level on the southern incline to Deelkraal will, to the best of my belief, be finished at the end of the year. This latter part is done by convict labour. 272. What alteration is it that the Fort Beaufort people are agitating for at that section of the road ? — It was the intention to have continued it from Deelkraal to Blink- water, but the Fort Beaufort people wish it to come through the town. The convict station at the Katberg has been so full that I received instructions to extend the construction of this road by convict labour, and it will probably take them until July or August to complete it to Blmkvvater. 273. Mr. Molteno.] With the present strength of the convict station ? — No, I do not require them, because the heavy work at the Katberg will be completed by the end of the year, and you cannot remove the main station to a comparatively light work, and those men will have to go elsewhere. 274. They will have to be provided for ? — Yes. 275. Mr. Darnell.] That will be? — In January next, I think. 276. Dr. White.] Do I understand that you have no means of putting a station there? — We have just built a station opposite the Gonsala, 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. 277. Chairman.] Is that an out-station ? — Yes, for sixty 31. R. Robinson men. Sept. 25, 18G6. 278. Then those sixty men will be sufficient for that work ? — Yes, those sixty men, with those at Deelkraal. I think there must be about forty or fifty men at Deel- kraal. 279. Is that another out-station ? — Yes ; the main station is up in the mountains. 280. Mr. Darnell.] Ho>v many miles is Deelkraal from the main station ? — About eleven miles. 281. Is there no part to the north of the Katberg, or any other part of the road, suitable for tiie employment of con- victs ? — 1 do not think so. You are so near the Fingo locations, where you can q:et very excellent free labour at a cheap rate, that any future works to the north on the main road up to the Orange Free State should be done by free labour. You ^et so far from timber to be supplied there that the erection of barracks would become very expensive. 282. Can you give us any information about the Stormberg mountain road ? — Across the Stormberg, at Penhoek, you have only about two miles ; it is a plane, and then a rise or steppe ; there is no fall on the northern side. 283. Chairman.] When the Katberg station is removed, will it not be better also to move the convicts at the small station at Deelkraal, and leave that work to be done by free cheap labour ? — I hat would depend so much upon circum- stances how they are removed. If it is necessary to remove them bodily elsewhere, — in that case, I think you would want extra superintendence, so that it would be cheaper to remove the convicts at the small stations also. I never thought myself that that work should be constructed by convict labour ; it was only under the great pressure for room that it was done. The barracks there are not so expensive ; it is a woody country, and wattle-and-daub huts are cheaply made. 284. Dr. While.] When the main station is removed from the Katberg, of course the out-stations cannot remain ? — No, there would be no ordinary convict management to superin- tend them. 285. Mr. Darnell.] Where does the Government intend to move them to from the Katberg ? — To the road from Breakfast \lei to Kmg William's Town. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 37 286. Chairman.! But that road is not surveyed ? — No, Mr. .1 „ „ „ -11 31. R. Robinson the surveys are now m hand. 287. Are you aware where it is intended to move the ^^p*- "-°' ^^'^^• convicts to from the Knysna and Langekloof roads when they are finished ? — It was intended to divide the strength on the road at Ruiterbosch and the road between George and the Knysna. 288. Mr. Darnell] Is there any work immediately to the north of that on which the convicts might be profitably employed ? — 1 do not know. I have had no official commu- nication from the Government on the matter, but parties there propose that we should construct the line from Sondagh's on to Lyon. 289. Mr. Molteno.] Has anything been done at Seven Weeks Poort, on the Seven Weeks Poort road through the Boschluis Poort? — Nothing since the works were abandoned three years since, 290. That is a work that was sanctioned by Parliament ? — I beheve so. 291. You are aware that the non-completion of the Boschluis Kloof renders the Seven Weeks Poort of no use at all? — Yes, it is useless. But 1 believe the old road has been made passable. Rev. G. H. R. Fisk examined. 292. Chairman.] You are the chaplain at the Breakwater Rev. convict station ? — I am. ^- ^- ^- -^ "^- 293. You have given your usual annual report for 1865, Sept. 25, i866. which is now before the Committee ? — Yes. 294. Mr. Molteno^ On page 12 you say you think a sys- tem of ticket of leave might be commenced, which would work satisfactorily in connection with first convictions ? — That opinion is qualified. I say that under certain circum- stances a ticket-of-leave system could be devised that would work satisfactorily, and I also say that the present circum- stances are not those under which the system could be introduced. 295. What do you allude to by "present circumstances?" — The general distress and want of employment. 296. Setting that for the moment aside, how do you propose to carry out that system, and what number of men do you think could be safely trusted with tickets of 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. leave ? — The suggestion here made with regard to tickets G. u. R. F isk. ^£ leave is in connection with other thinp:s which I have Sept 25, 1866. stated at previous times. It is only part of a system I have been endeavouring to enunciate, which I should like to see superseding the present system, I would not like to see the ticket-of-leave system introduced without regard to other things. 297. You are pretty well acquainted with the convicts, — their character and general conduct ? — Yes, as well as one can be. - 298. Mr. Darnell.] Will you state shortly what those other things are?— My idea with regard to the discipline maintained at the convict stations in tliis Colony is, that we should carefully separate reconvictions and reiterated con- victions from first convictions. Such a permanent station as that at the Breakwater, where the work will last for a con- siderable time, is just the place where reconvictions and reiterated convictions might be sent, as also men guilty of bad crimes That would give, according to last year's return of the number at the station, between 400 and 600, — upwards of 400 reconvictions, and, I suppose, another 100 bad crimes. The discipline of these men should be exceedingly severe, as severe as it can be. The first convic- tions should be separated from these men, and those you might employ anywhere, on railway works, roads, and on almost every kind of public work. So long as you mix up men of first convictions with men who have been recon- victed, you only propagate crime, by so doing, as fast as possible. If we want to bring down the total number of criminals now that the Colony is in such an unfortunate state, then you must separate them in this way. But I have stated all this before in my evidence before the commission that was appointed by the Government last year. 299. Chairman.] Does not a practical separation between the two classes exist at present? — No, all reconvictions are put in the penal class, but after a certain time they are brought into the probation class, so that men who have been reconvicted are associated in the probation class with the other men under their first sentence. 300. Would not that depend upon their good conduct ? — Yes, station good conduct. There is a great difierence between a good convict, or a good man as a convict and a SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 39 good man as a free man. I may state that the total number of convicts at the station last year was 2,168; there v^ere second convictions, 335 ; and reiterated convictions, 99 ; Sept- 25, 1866. that gives a little over 20 per cent. It was said in the House on Monday by the member for Cape Town that it was 10 per cent., but here are the figures. With regard to that, I may make another remark, — that is, that of the men who have joined the station during this year up to the middle of the month, the reconvictions and reiterated convic- tions amount to only 16 per cent. That is rather a remarkable fact, bearing in mind the distress, the great distress, which exists at the present time. Then I reckon that last year would have given for the class of which I speak, 434, and about 104 bad crimes; I mean men who are convicted of murder, culpable homicide, assault with intent, rape, and sucii crimes. 301. Mr. Mwinik.^ Then would the rest of the men above the 538 be men of good conduct, who could be em- ployed on railways, roads, or in any other way? — 1 should be sorry to say that those men are all good-conduct men ; but they are men who have not been reconvicted, who have short sentences, under five years, and who should therefore be kept from mixing with old offenders. If this were done, we should then have a chance of doing some good with them. 302. Do you consider that the regulations could be relaxed with those men from what they are at present ? — I should say that the present discipline would be the proper discipline for those men ; the discipline for the penal station should be made more severe. 303. Mr. Darnell.'] Do you think the discipline could be carried out on small bodies on detached works ? — I would not separate them into small parties ; if the number is kept up at about 400 it would be far preferable ; if you separate them in small parties, you will require more superintendents, overseers, and constables. 304. You would have the penal class in a separate station by themselves ? — Yes, I would have two different classes of stations. It would act in this way : supposing the men at the stations where you have only first convictions misbehave themselves, you could send them to the penal station ; they would dread this very much, and it would have a great effect in making them behave themselves. 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE G h'b' FM ^0^- ^^^ Mvnnj/i.] Then you do not think that any — : — economy could be observed in the disciphne, even with these ^^ ■ ^' ^ ■ good-conduct men ? — I do not see how that could be, — I have no faith in such a system. 306. Chairman ] Would it not decrease the expenditure ? — I do not think any suggestion I have made calculated to effect an immediate decrease in the expenditure, but I firmly believe an ultimate decrease would be effected. 307. Mr. Molteno.] The Superintendent-General of Con- victs has stated in his evidence that there are a number of men now sent to the convict stations, such as the Break- water station, sentenced by the magistrates, which men, in his opinion, should never have been sent there at all, and might safely be employed in the country under the magistrate, under a less rigorous discipline. Do you coin- cide in that opinion ? — I should not like to see the discipline relaxed or made less severe than at present. I do not think the first convictions are too vseverely treated ; reconvictions should be punished more severely, ff you punish a fellow you should do it well, otherwise it is of no use at all. 308. Chairman.'] Are you not now propounding a dif- ferent system from the ticket-of-leave system ? If 1 under- stand you, you now contemplate these men being formed into a separate convict station, under the same discipline as at present? — The ticket-of-leave system grows upon it. Suppose convicts are separated in this way, and you have a separate penal station for reconvictions, and separate stations for first convictions, then I would propose on that ground- work a system of ticket of leave, out of which a more perfect system might grow. Vou would thus be enabled to grant mitigations of sentences in the shape of tickets of leave, which would be conditional pardons. 309. With which they should leave the station ? — Yes. 310. And become their own masters? — Yes, so far. This would naturally oblige them to continual good behaviour. The working of the system would be this: supposing a man convicted of crime is brought to the convict station, and say that his sentence is for ten years, if he behaves well, then, according to present regulations, two years are taken off his sentence, and he gets an unconditional pardon. In place of that, 1 would make it a conditional pardon, so that if in the meantime, before the expiration of the two years, he SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 41 commits himself and receives another sentence, then he Rev. would have to work off the remaining portion of the first ' ' sentence before he could commence the second. ^^p*- ^^' ^^*^^- 311. I find this paragraph in your report: "When general distress and want of employment exists." Is it your view, then, that the ticket-of-leave system cannot well be in- troduced now, on account of the number of unemployed persons *? — I think at the present time, mitigations of sentences should be granted very charily. I would certainly not mitigate any sentences or grant tickets of leave until the harvest ; and as we now look for returning prosperity, we may be able to carry the system out to some extent. I may mention a case which will show the effect of the system in cases of reconviction. It is a very extreme case, but by an extreme case, the effect can best be seen. There is a convict at the station, No. 9S63 ; he was tried July 8, 1865, and sentenced to two years. This is his fifth conviction. He was first tried in 1833, and sentenced for life ; he deserted, and was tried again in September, 1846, and received a sentence of six months ; he was then discovered to be a deserter, and therefore had to serve the original sentence for life. But in 1856, he received an unconditional pardon, and was sent off the station. In January, 1860, he was again tried, and received a sentence of one year and three months. In January, 1862, he was again tried, and received another sentence; and, as I have already stated, in July, 1865, he was again tried, and received two years, under which sen- tence he is now serving. Now, if in place of an uncon- ditional pardon that man had received a ticket of leave, or conditional pardon, when reconvicted he would have had first to serve the remainder of his original sentence ; and if this had been understood by him, the deterring effect would have been very great. 312. Chairman. Then you recommend tickets of leave, instead of unconditional pardons ? — Yes. 313. Mr. Molteno.] Can you explain how it was this man, with so severe a sentence as that, could have obtained such a pardon? — I think it was on the occasion of the opening of Bain's Pass. As a convict, his conduct was remarkably good, and on that occasion the very best men were picked out and they received pardons. Observe, again, how the system would work. Until the present Governor came, and once since His Excellency has been here, there A. 2— '66. CONVICTS. Cr 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. have been extraordinary mitigations <2;ranted at the opening G. H. R. F tsk. Qf ^yQpj^g 'i]^Q last was when the new bridfje over the river Sept. 25, 1866. ^^ Mostcrt's Hoek, Ceres Pass, was finished. A number of men had been left there, who behaved remarkably well, and ihe present Governor was good enough to grant mitigations of sentences for various terms. Now, I think that instead of these mitigations had tickets of leave been granted, they would have had a very good and deterring eflfect, for the men would have felt that if they committed themselves again and were brought again to ihe station, and it was discovered they were ticket-of-leave men, they would have to serve out the remainder of the first as well as the second sentence. 314. But it appears that these men behaved themselves for a considerable time under a less rigorous system of discipline? — They were c;ood-conduct men, who had been picked out by the superintendent and left at the work with a head overseer and a number of constables. 315. Do you know the number of the men in that party ? — I think about fifty men ; they were picked out of the whole of the stations as the most trustworthy men, and were left behind to finish the work. 316. Do you think, taking the convicts at the Breakwater, that 150 or *200 men, or any number you may fix upon, all men of that class, could be dratted away to Namaqualand to work upon the road there under a less rigorous system of discipline, with a much smaller amount of superintendence and guarding than i^ ordinarily the case at convict stations ? — I do not think so ; it would not be fair to the men to have a relaxed system of discipline. You cannot send them away for three or four years without a superintendent, a doctor, and a chaplain. I do not think it would do unless they had the proper superintendence. 317. But the men selected should be from that class of convicts, not the more dangerous ones, but men convicted of comparatively slight oti'ences, such as cattle-stealing, and rather with a view to relieving the great present pressure. Would there be any danger in putting a number of such men on a work of that kind, whom it would not be necessary to place under the full convict regulations, giving them to understand that if any oflfences were committed, they would be sent back to the penal class at the Breakwater ? — I do not see how it would do to send a number of men for a g-reat lonsth of time without the olficers similar in number tothose SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 43 now employed at the stations, in the proportion of one Rev. overseer to fifty convicts, besides constables. ' - — !_ '* ' 318. But if you trusted fifty men, who, as you state, ^"p*- ^^^ ^866. worked well and with whom you were perfectly satisfied, so much so that they received a remission of their sentences, could not such a system be, to a certain extent, initiated ? — I think there is a very great difference between leaving a small number of men under an overseer for a few months, and a large number of men, such as you will require in Namaqualand. 319. But their sentences will be constantly expiring; many of them would not have many months to serve ? — Then if they have only a few months to serve, their removal would entail an increase of expense. 320. But it is not a question of expense now. I only wish to know whether there would be any great danger in making such an experiment as that? — I do not think it would work under a relaxed system of discipline ; if they knew they could runaway at any time, they would set their officers at defiance. It would not be fair to the convicts themselves. 321. Have you made yourself at all acquainted with the Irish convict system ? — I cannot say I am up in it, but 1 know that it works better than any other. 322. Under that system, it was found that men entrusted to a certain extent in that way required but little superin- dence? — Yes, but then they have a gradation of prisons in Ireland ; there is a great classification of the men. I should myself be exceedingly careful in working a new system. For instance, you should be very careful in the treatment of men with first sentences ; you might afterwards relax the dis- cipline, but it would not do in the first instance. 323. Dr. White.] These fifty men alluded to just now, were they taken from any particular body of convicts? — -They were not exclusively from the good-conduct class ; they were selected from the ordinary parties of overseers. 324. Chairman.'] I think you said there was hardly a good-conduct class now ? — The good-conduct-ticket class has been almost done away with ; it was found that it did not work well. There is a good-conduct class now, which the men call the coftee span. I think they amount to eight per cent, on the whole number ; they get some indulgences, such as coffee and tobacco, and so on. 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. Shorty Superintendent of Convicts at the Break- water Station, examined. Mt. J. Short. 325. Chairman.] How long have you been connected SeptT^SGG. with the Convict department ?— Altogether, twenty-two years. 326. Were you connected with it during tlie time of Mr. Montagu ? — Yes. 327. Are you acquainted with the system before it was changed ? — Yes. ^ 328. It is different from the present system ? — Yes, to a certain extent. 329. In what respect? — There was then no good-conduct class. 330. Was there any difference in the discipline of the convicts? — No; but at that time there was no resident chaplain or resident surgeon ; they were merely visitors. 331. How did this good-conduct system originate? — It was M'lipn tlie old regulations and orders were revised. It was found that a number of orders had been issued from time to time, to meet certain cases, and tliese were revised and reduced to one code. The one now in force was then introduced by the commission, of which Dr. Innes was one. 332. \\ as it suggested with any idea of encouraginjr the men to get into a better class, where the discipline could be relaxed? — Yes, that was the intention, there can be no doubt. 333. Mr. Darnell.] Was that more with the intention of reforming them ? — Yes. 334. Mr. Munnik.] At all events, it was held out as an encouragement, by giving certain indulgences for good behaviour ? — Yes. 335. Under that good-behaviour system, the discipline was relaxed ? — Yes, after a certain period. 33G. — Did that seem t.i work ? — Yes, in some places ; in other places it has not. I know at Knysna, when I was there, it did not work well ; they used to go out and steal at niglit. I hey were under charge of a constable, who would perhaps have thirty men under him in tents ; they would creep from underneath, and go and steal and get drunk, and so on. 337. Chairman.] 'Ihe relaxed discipline was not found to work well ? — No ; they had too much liberty, and abused it very much. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONVICTS. 45 338. Even the good-conduct men ? — It is the good- Mr. j. short. conduct men I am referring to now. Sept. 25, 1866 339. Mr. Munnik.] The next class to that is the probation class ? — Yes. 340. What proportion do they form to the number at each station ? — Generally about two thirds. 341. Have you not occasionally taken certain men out of that class, and employed them in a manner where the supervision was relaxed? — No, never, excepting with their proper officers, according to what has been found indispen- sable at all the stations. 342. Have you not sometimes taken a portion of men out of the probation class and given them employment at a dis- tance from the main station, under a relaxed discipline? — No, always under a proper escort. 343. How were the men employed at the Mitchell's Pass; I mean those men that uere left behind by the New Kloof party? — They were under the charge of an overseer and six constables for night and day duty, and at last under the charge of the head overseer-resident. 344. Chairman.] Were those men brought back to the main station at night? — No, they were in what is called a detached or out-station, under the same regulations as the main station. There were numbers of them in the Colony, but always under a proper guard. 345. Mr, Munnik.] You say there was a number of these detached stations, upon which these convicts worked in par- ties ? — Yes. 34(5. Then working them in that way was not a less expensive system ? — Oh, no, it was much more expensive ; the more stations you have, the more expensive it is. 347. Do you think there would be any difficulty in obtain- ing out of the probation class at present at the Breakwater a sufficient number, say 200 or 250 convicts, to send to Nama- qualand, for the construction of the road there on a principle cheaper than the present ? — I should like to know what that principle is before I could give an opinion, for some of those convicts have sentences of five years downwards. 348. But being acquainted with the personal conduct of those men, would you be able to find 200 or 250 men who could be employed in that way? — Not without a proper guard. We have always a constable for every fifteen men 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE mt. J. Short, for day and night duty, and an overseer for every fifty Sept. 25, 18C6. Hien. 349. Mr. Molteno.] Do you think if we were to give these men to understand that pending good conduct they would be placed something Hkc under the circum- stances of free labourers, but liable to be sent back to the station for any misconduct whatever, and employ a number of free labourers with them to act as constables, — do you tliink such a system as .that would be worth trying? — No, I do not think it would do to bring the free people into contact with them. I have seen the bad consequences of that, and if the free men wrought all the day, they could not take care of the convicts at night ; and they could then go out and rove about the country during the night wher- ever they pleased, without any risk. 350. Yes ; but they are not employed to work with them, only they are at the same time to act as constables for a special reward ? — I have not seen it in use, and would there- fore not like to give an opinion ; but 1 very much doubt the efficacy of the proposal, and the safety of the convicts. 351 . At Tulbaoh Kloof works, were the convicts not a good deal scattered ? — 'J'hey were not scattered, but a party was detached to Mitchell's Pass outstation, under a sub-overseer, and H certain number of constables. 352. M'hat number were detached? — We began with twenty-five, and then increased it to about fifty. When the main gang was moved from Tulbagh Kloof, they were left at Mitchell's Pass under charge of a head overseer, besides the other officers. 353. How did they get on ? — Very fairly. I omitted to say that besides the guard, the chaplain, the surgeon, and myself visited them regularly weekly, and the visiting and road magistrate also inspected the party and road at least once a week, and saw to the state of their discipline, &c. 354. Dr. White.] How were they guarded at night ? — They were regularly locked up in properly-constructed bar- racks, and a chief constable, with an armed constable, were in charj5j. UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY Los Angeles This book is DUE on the last date stamped below. MAY 07 m Form L9-Series 4930 L 005 850 518 1 UC SOUTHERN REGIONAL LIBRARY EACILITY AA 000 912 967 /■ .,';.',ki*, ^/^Q